Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Catherine [00:00:45] Bell onto the podcast. Catherine is a dentist with a very interesting backstory, [00:00:50] um, a general practitioner from Chippenham with [00:00:55] a massive interest in facial aesthetics, um, part of the Colosseum [00:01:00] group, the practices and internally a key opinion leader for facial aesthetics. [00:01:05] I’m really interested in getting into that. Um, Catherine’s also been invited to [00:01:10] women in DSO conferences, will be at Dental forum, interested in the whole question [00:01:15] of women in business and in dentistry. Lovely to have you.

Kathryn Bell: Oh, thank you [00:01:20] so much for having me. I’m really grateful to be here and have the opportunity to chat with you. [00:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s great that you’ve come all this way. It’s been a long time coming because you sent me a message.

Kathryn Bell: I did.

Payman Langroudi: On [00:01:30] the Dental Leaders Instagram, which is woefully [00:01:35] not looked after, and I missed it completely. And [00:01:40] then I got back to you and you’ve driven all the way. So it’s it’s really nice to have you.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. No worries.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:01:45] let’s start with that story of your brain tumour.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:01:50] old were.

Kathryn Bell: You? 17. I was, um, I was six [00:01:55] months past my 17th birthday And flew out to [00:02:00] America, which is where the kind of story all unfolded. It [00:02:05] was quite a chance occurrence, actually, that I happened to be [00:02:10] where I was at the time, that it was discovered. I’d had headaches for well [00:02:15] over a year in advance, and I’d been referred to specialists [00:02:20] for investigations. And one specialist had told me that I had chronic [00:02:25] sinusitis, and another told me that I was a lazy teenager and needed more exercise. [00:02:30] Um, but my mum had never given up and she’d actually said because I was at [00:02:35] the point where I was waking up every morning, um, and I was waking up with an excruciating [00:02:40] headache and I had to take 800mg of ibuprofen [00:02:45] half an hour before I was able to get out of bed. Because if I didn’t, I stood up and like, my [00:02:50] vision blacked in. And I, you know, my head felt like it was going to explode. So that was [00:02:55] just my, my daily routine at the age of 17 to to be able to to go about my day. But, [00:03:00] you know, it didn’t stop me from living my life as a 17 year old. Um, [00:03:05] I distinctly remember my 17th birthday, um, as a typical 17 year [00:03:10] old, kind of snuck into a club with a friend, um, and blacked out.

Kathryn Bell: I [00:03:15] was actually at the bar. Um, I really wanted a glass of water. I was just super thirsty. I blacked out at the bar, [00:03:20] and I remember waking up and people were asking my friend, you know, what had I taken? She’s like, [00:03:25] she hasn’t taken anything. She’s she hasn’t actually had any alcohol either. Um, and so I think that was [00:03:30] probably the first time where it was a, [00:03:35] well, I became aware of how serious it was. Um, and obviously, you [00:03:40] know, I didn’t tell my parents that I’d passed out in a club on my 17th birthday. They didn’t know I was there. [00:03:45] Um, and it was an April Fools Day when we flew out to America. [00:03:50] It was a school exchange trip. So I was going without my parents. There was, [00:03:55] I can’t remember. There was 6 or 7 of us all from the same school, and we’d been paired with, [00:04:00] um, students from a high school in Louisville, Kentucky. Um, [00:04:05] and the second day that we were there, I was in like a very minor [00:04:10] car crash. So, um, I was with Tara, my exchange [00:04:15] partner, and we’d pulled out of the, the school onto the road outside and the road was [00:04:20] slightly wet because it had been raining and the car behind us just didn’t stop in time.

Kathryn Bell: Uh, [00:04:25] just shunted into the back of us enough force that we kind of went into the car in front, but [00:04:30] it wasn’t massive. The car. There was no real damage to the cars. Um, [00:04:35] but it was enough to be the trigger for, um, [00:04:40] the discovery of the brain tumour, because I think it was about 5 or 6 days later [00:04:45] and I woke up, um, in the early hours of the morning in [00:04:50] the house of this family that I’d known for less than a week. And I had like, this [00:04:55] black dot. It was like a void in my vision. Yeah. So [00:05:00] it’s literally like a like a black hole in my vision. Yeah. And my left arm was, was really [00:05:05] heavy. Like I couldn’t get it to move properly. And obviously I was 17 and I [00:05:10] was lying in bed going, I don’t feel well, but it’s like silly o’clock in the morning [00:05:15] and I can’t wake this family up. I don’t I don’t know them. And [00:05:20] in the end, I kind of had this internal argument and I was like, no, I just, you know, [00:05:25] they’ll get me some painkillers and I’ll be back to bed. It’ll be fine. So I kind of [00:05:30] stumbled down the hallway and knocked on their bedroom door.

Kathryn Bell: And I [00:05:35] remember Carolyn’s face. She was the mum of the family. She literally took one look at me [00:05:40] and turned to her husband and said, you need to take her to the ER. It was like [00:05:45] she said, I was like a grey colour, but my my cheeks were flushed red and [00:05:50] um and so they kind of sent me back to bed whilst they made arrangements [00:05:55] of, you know, because they had their lives to live. They were meant to be going to work that day. [00:06:00] And so they had to plan their day to get me down to the hospital. And [00:06:05] also because my parents weren’t with me, my legal [00:06:10] guardian was actually the teacher who’d come with us. So they then got a call [00:06:15] at 4:00 in the morning or whatever time it was. Um, and we had to go and pick her up on [00:06:20] the way to the hospital. Um, and so we arrived at Norton [00:06:25] Hospital in Louisville. And if you Google that hospital, it’s, [00:06:30] I mean, even to this day, I still kind of get chills thinking about this, but it is one of [00:06:35] the leading neurosurgical institutes in America. And I do wonder [00:06:40] if it wasn’t there that I’d presented at, would I actually [00:06:45] be here today? So I kind of arrived and, um, you [00:06:50] know, they, they admitted me and took me for a CT scan, and I was [00:06:55] very much in and out of it at this point.

Kathryn Bell: I don’t remember a vast amount. I do remember [00:07:00] being really agitated by the nurses asking me questions like, what’s your date of [00:07:05] birth? Because I couldn’t remember the answer. What I do remember is, um, [00:07:10] one of the doctors pulling up his chair close to the bed where I was lying [00:07:15] and saying, Katherine, I need you to open your eyes. [00:07:20] I was very reluctant to open my eyes because I was quite sensitive to light at this point. Um, [00:07:25] and he shone a light in my eyes just to check my, my pupil reaction. And he [00:07:30] said, Katherine, you’ve got a brain tumour and it’s caused [00:07:35] a brain haemorrhage. And that’s kind of the last thing that I remember for a few days. [00:07:40] But at the time, you know, people always think that when I, when I was [00:07:45] told that, you know, what was my reaction and my first reaction. I [00:07:50] mean, I wasn’t really with it, but my first reaction was very much, oh, that makes sense, because [00:07:55] it just explained all of those headaches, the blacking out on my 17th birthday [00:08:00] and the kind of, you know, my vision closing in in the mornings. It just [00:08:05] made complete sense.

Payman Langroudi: How come it was so misdiagnosed before that? Did they not take a [00:08:10] scan?

Kathryn Bell: No, I’d never had a scan.

Payman Langroudi: Never had a scan.

Kathryn Bell: Never had a scan? No. And and [00:08:15] I’d seen at least two neurologists. My GP, bless him. He hadn’t [00:08:20] given up. He was he was still trying like he. He was the one that prescribed me the ibuprofen. [00:08:25] He’d tried acupuncture in case it was like cervicogenic headaches. Um, [00:08:30] and like he was he, you know, I think he was kind of just at the point where he’s like, I don’t know, I don’t know where [00:08:35] else to send you. You’ve seen two neurologists. Um, but no, but then this was [00:08:40] 1998 and scans were not as prevalent as they are now. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: By the way. I mean, CTS don’t really show as much as MRIs, either in the brain. [00:08:50] No. So, um, so the CT.

Kathryn Bell: Scan was just like the initial diagnosis. [00:08:55] And then prior to the surgery, I had an MRI and a bit more. [00:09:00]

Payman Langroudi: So then what happened? What happened after that? I guess you came straight back home or what happened? Oh, you had a treatment [00:09:05] there?

Kathryn Bell: Well, I had a brain haemorrhage.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you had to have treatment.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Um, so [00:09:10] my parents then got this phone call, um, like half the world away. They were, [00:09:15] I think they were just sitting down to breakfast in the morning and they got this phone call to say, your [00:09:20] 17 year old daughter is literally fighting for a life. Um, and they had to make a [00:09:25] choice, so they needed one of them to stay by the phone in England because [00:09:30] I was 17 and so under the age of consent, and I couldn’t give consent [00:09:35] anyway because I was so out of it. Um, and then obviously the other to fly out to be with [00:09:40] me and what they were hoping is that they would keep me stable for as long as it took for [00:09:45] one of my parents to arrive with to be with me. Um, but so, I mean, [00:09:50] you know, you’re a parent yourself. You imagine one of your children as, as you know, you’ve [00:09:55] given them that freedom to fly to America on an exchange trip and you get up one [00:10:00] morning, you’re just going about the morning phone rings, and it’s a doctor in America telling you that your [00:10:05] daughter is dying, essentially. And so my mum [00:10:10] flew out to be with me and my dad stayed at home, and this was my [00:10:15] mum’s second time on a plane. She’d only ever been on a plane once before. She was obviously [00:10:20] flying out on her own and to a country she’d never been before, to people she’d never [00:10:25] met. I mean, I just I cannot imagine what that must be like as a parent.

Kathryn Bell: It just [00:10:30] baffles me. And she’s I remember I spoke to her afterwards and she said that she, like [00:10:35] she was just the pain. The plane was flying so slowly it seemed to her. She was like she wanted [00:10:40] to get out and push. It felt like it was taking forever. Um, but [00:10:45] whilst she was in the air my pupils blew. So [00:10:50] they became fixed and dilated. They’d already drilled a hole in my skull to release [00:10:55] the pressure. Release the pressure. But my intracranial pressure was just getting [00:11:00] too high. I couldn’t control it anymore, and they ended up having to phone my dad [00:11:05] to get permission to do the emergency surgery whilst my mum was still [00:11:10] flying over. So all of this is based on, you know, I have absolutely [00:11:15] no memory of this whatsoever. So these bits have been filled in from from the people that were [00:11:20] around me at the time. Um, and that includes Pat who was like, he was, [00:11:25] you know, this was like I said, this was a family had not met before, but they, they stepped up, you [00:11:30] know, and Marie, my teacher who was there, they were the ones that were advocating on my [00:11:35] behalf because, you know, I couldn’t do it myself. I was just out of it. So [00:11:40] they were, you know, there by my bedside, looking after [00:11:45] me and doing everything they could until my mum arrived and Pat [00:11:50] collected her from the airport. And the first thing he like literally, [00:11:55] I think the first thing he said to her was, she is alive.

Kathryn Bell: She’s in [00:12:00] surgery. So that was like, yeah, that was all, you know, at that moment. That was [00:12:05] the information that she needed to know. Um, so he, she was like, [00:12:10] he said to her, you know, do you want to come to our house? Do you want to freshen up? She’s like, no, I just need to get to the hospital. [00:12:15] So he drove us straight to the hospital and she arrived whilst [00:12:20] I was in the middle of this operation. Nobody knew what the outcome of that was going to be. [00:12:25] Um, and again, I’m immensely grateful [00:12:30] for all of the exchange families because they never at [00:12:35] any point left my mum on her own. She always had somebody with her. [00:12:40] Um, and they met all of her needs. So if she wanted to sit in silence, [00:12:45] they just sat in silence with her. If she needed a drink, whatever it was, they [00:12:50] just rallied around and made sure that she had what she needed. Um, [00:12:55] and then eventually at the end of the surgery, I was taken to intensive care. [00:13:00] Um, and I was in a coma for a couple of days after [00:13:05] the operation. Um, and again, this was that point where nobody really [00:13:10] knew what um, sort of condition I’d be in when I woke up. And [00:13:15] me and my mum had always been really close and we’d always loved watching things like er [00:13:20] and casualty and all the kind of hospital dramas. And alongside [00:13:25] that we’d had this conversation, both of us, about if we were ever in a [00:13:30] situation about where we were unbelievably [00:13:35] brain damaged and, you know, we wouldn’t be able to function as ourselves, you know, and there was [00:13:40] an option to turn off the life support.

Kathryn Bell: What would we do? And I’d always said that if it came [00:13:45] to it, I wanted my life support switched off. And so obviously this was running through my [00:13:50] mum’s head all of this time sitting by my bed. Um, and [00:13:55] then, uh, eventually. So funnily enough, I had the surgery [00:14:00] on Good Friday and I woke up on Easter Sunday. So, um, [00:14:05] I woke up and, and the first person I saw was [00:14:10] Pat, who was just that was him. He was always there for everybody. [00:14:15] That’s, that’s just the person that he is. He’s, he’s very calm. Um, [00:14:20] got an incredible dry sense of humour, amazing guy. And he was just there [00:14:25] and he explained that my mum had been persuaded for the first time [00:14:30] since she’d arrived in America, to actually go home and get freshened up and get [00:14:35] a change of clothes. And of course, that’s the moment that I chose to wake up. Wake up. So when she’d gone, Um, [00:14:40] and so at this point, I still had a ventilator. I was [00:14:45] actually strapped to the bed. Um, so I had restraints around my wrists [00:14:50] and ankles. I had tubes everywhere. Uh, and so Pat kind of, um, [00:14:55] explained what was going on, um, and, and what had happened [00:15:00] and why I was lying there and why I was strapped to the bed. Because even [00:15:05] whilst I was unconscious, I’d been trying to pull out the tubes and the, I’d been fighting against everything. [00:15:10]

Kathryn Bell: Um and so he kind of filled in the gaps. And not long after [00:15:15] that, a respiratory therapist arrived and, um, [00:15:20] uh, she offered to take the tube out and [00:15:25] I kind of looked at Pat and he was like, well, it’s up to you. And they said, you [00:15:30] know, do you want do you want to wait for your mum? And again, he was like, it’s entirely up to you. I was like, no, I just, I just [00:15:35] want this out. So and then obviously I could talk, but the. The most. The thing I wanted [00:15:40] most was I just wanted a drink of water and I wasn’t allowed. I couldn’t have a drink of water. So they gave me [00:15:45] this really disappointing wet sponge lollipop that I can suck on. [00:15:50] Um, and so when my mum arrived and obviously they phoned my mum to say I was awake [00:15:55] and I think she’d literally just stepped through the door, so turned round and came straight back to [00:16:00] the hospital. So when she arrived, she saw me sitting up in bed. [00:16:05] Um, and I kind of smiled at her and she said she, she, she knew, she knew straight [00:16:10] away the minute she saw me that I was going to be okay. Um, you know, she could see [00:16:15] it in my eyes. So, um, huge relief really. I mean, your [00:16:20] only daughter. Yeah. Going through all that halfway around the world. Um, [00:16:25] so I spent a few days in intensive care.

Payman Langroudi: But the tumour was still [00:16:30] there, so.

Kathryn Bell: No. So they, they’d removed the tumour.

Payman Langroudi: Removed the.

Kathryn Bell: Tumour? Yeah. They removed the tumour as part of the surgery [00:16:35] to deal with the haemorrhage. So that had all been cleared out. It was a benign tumour with [00:16:40] a very, very long name called a cerebellar hemangioblastoma, which is basically [00:16:45] a collection of blood vessels. And the, uh, the car [00:16:50] accident that we were in had literally just knocked it enough that it had caused a slow bleed. [00:16:55] Um, and that’s why it had taken more or less a week for it to be discovered. [00:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: Interesting to think what would have happened if you didn’t have the car accident.

Kathryn Bell: They told me.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:17:05] on.

Kathryn Bell: So, uh, Doctor Shields, who was the consultant neurologist, he [00:17:10] came to see me once I’d been moved down to the general ward. Um, and he said that I could have [00:17:15] had a fatal stroke just walking down the street at any moment. Yeah. So the [00:17:20] series of coincidences that led me up to being [00:17:25] in that hospital at that moment in time is absolutely [00:17:30] mind boggling. You know, it just seemed when when it just doesn’t seem real. [00:17:35] Um, it’s it’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: And in our text exchange, you alluded [00:17:40] to sort of some sort of guilt of survival.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Big time. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Explain that to.

Kathryn Bell: Me. So, [00:17:45] um, I mean, brain tumours are the biggest [00:17:50] killer of under 40s. And I survived. And it’s that, you [00:17:55] know, people are it’s one of those things. It’s people think, well why me? Why did I have a brain [00:18:00] tumour? No, no, for me it’s why me? Why did I survive when so many people don’t? [00:18:05]

Payman Langroudi: But had you become friends with others, was it something like that?

Kathryn Bell: No, it’s more kind of [00:18:10] re like. I remember not long afterwards reading about, I think it was a two year old boy who who’d [00:18:15] died from a brain tumour or, um, you know, [00:18:20] and I read of other people who’ve, who’ve died from brain tumours because and [00:18:25] I tried to explain this to somebody else. There’s no such thing as a truly benign brain tumour. [00:18:30] You can have ones that, that don’t metastasise, that aren’t cancerous in that [00:18:35] way, but anything inside your brain is going to have some sort [00:18:40] of effect. Um, and a lot of the time that’s catastrophic. Whether that’s [00:18:45] speech impairments, hearing vision, personality changes, you know, [00:18:50] it controls everything. So the fact that not only did I survive, [00:18:55] but I survived to the level that I have done. And that’s, that’s [00:19:00] taken me a I mean, I wouldn’t even say I’m 100% okay with it now. [00:19:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s I kind of understand my, what my, my, uh, someone in my family [00:19:10] had a stroke and then we went, she was okay. And then we went [00:19:15] to a check up kind of thing at Queen’s Square. And almost [00:19:20] everyone else in the waiting room had a massive either walking [00:19:25] or talking or something disability. And she didn’t. And I [00:19:30] kind of thought, you know, that like the luck of that and why do we, you know, get that [00:19:35] luck and everyone else got the bad luck. But you’re kind of then associated some guilt with that, right? [00:19:40]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Survive. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Survivor’s guilt and the guilt still, still bothers you to to this day. What we’re talking 25 years [00:19:45] later or something. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. Okay. You know, what I’m interested [00:19:50] in is that when you sent me your original note about all of this. I thought [00:19:55] that you were still sort of defining yourself by this, which I’m sure you are to some extent.

Kathryn Bell: I’m the girl that [00:20:00] survived, for sure. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then I listen to your podcast with Jaz Gulati and it wasn’t mentioned.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:20:05]

Payman Langroudi: At all.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so it’s good that you also have the other side of it where you’re moving forward [00:20:10] and you’re not letting it define you. Yeah. By the way, great podcast. I recommend anyone to listen [00:20:15] to that.

Kathryn Bell: Thanks so much.

Payman Langroudi: Episode 180 of Protrusive. Yeah. Great [00:20:20] pod.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s move on. Yeah. Had you already decided [00:20:25] to be a dentist? You must have been 17. Had you already decided to apply [00:20:30] to dental school when this all happened.

Kathryn Bell: Yes. So, um, I was doing my A Levels [00:20:35] at Sale grammar school, which is where I grew up around there, south South Manchester. And [00:20:40] um, I, I think it was our chemistry class, we had this little note delivered, [00:20:45] uh, and the teacher read it out. It was basically a local dental practice that was looking [00:20:50] for somebody interested in sort of a medical field, and they were looking [00:20:55] for somebody to do one night after school a week as a dental nurse. So [00:21:00] this was before you had.

Payman Langroudi: The good old.

Kathryn Bell: Days? Yeah, the good old days when you could just go along and, and [00:21:05] do those sort of jobs without any registration or anything like that. So, um, and that had really [00:21:10] piqued my interest. I think in, in dentistry, I’d already [00:21:15] figured out that I wanted to do something healthcare related. Um, and [00:21:20] again, I kind of maybe that’s due to all those lovely hospital dramas that I used to watch, but it [00:21:25] kind of fitted in with how I was as a person, uh, you know, where [00:21:30] I wanted my life to go. And so I started doing this this one night a week as a [00:21:35] dental nurse. And I was predominantly working with the hygienist, actually, who was just an absolute [00:21:40] sweetheart. She was lovely. Um, but that kind of opened my eyes [00:21:45] a bit more to what was involved with, with that kind of aspect of, um, [00:21:50] healthcare. And it really appealed to me because I’ve always been quite [00:21:55] creative as well. So for me, it was that real combination of [00:22:00] the healthcare, but also with that creative element alongside it as well. Um, [00:22:05] and so I’d, I’d chosen my A levels based on doing [00:22:10] something healthcare based. So I was doing chemistry, biology and psychology. Um, [00:22:15] and then general studies as well, which is a bit of a, a nothing a level, but um, [00:22:20] and so yeah, so every Thursday I was going half three till [00:22:25] 8:00, uh, working in a dental practice, literally just down the road from [00:22:30] my school. And it really I really enjoyed that experience because [00:22:35] it did show me like the the other side of the dentistry. You know, I’d been a dental [00:22:40] patient, but I’d never seen that kind of other side what the actual inner workings of a dental practice [00:22:45] were. And that was really.

Payman Langroudi: What I expect the tumour must have got in the way of that.

Kathryn Bell: It did so. So obviously [00:22:50] I’d been working there and then um, I had the brain tumour and then I got meningitis [00:22:55] and then I got hydrocephalus. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:23:00] was this all as a result of the operations?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I had, uh, [00:23:05] the meningitis I developed whilst I was in America. So not long after I’d um come [00:23:10] out from the original hospital stay. But then the hydrocephalus developed [00:23:15] a little bit later. So that was treated in the UK. So I ended up having another two week stay when [00:23:20] I got back to the UK. Um, so all in all I lost a whole term [00:23:25] of school. Um and obviously the kind of inner workings of the dental practice [00:23:30] as well. And I was faced, I had to face this really difficult choice [00:23:35] at the age of 17. And that was, did I carry [00:23:40] on and go into year 12 and year 13 and [00:23:45] sit my A-levels? Probably not then able to get the [00:23:50] grades that I’d need to go to university.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. But then that was then, you know, some [00:23:55] of my friends I’d known since I was 4 or 5. You know, I’d been through the whole school [00:24:00] system. And at 17, that’s a massive thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I.

Kathryn Bell: Know. Um, just the thought of having to, [00:24:05] to drop down to a year where I knew nobody really.

Payman Langroudi: It’s mad, isn’t it, that that’s so important. [00:24:10] I know in hindsight one year. Absolutely. Um, so you decided to [00:24:15] skip a year.

Kathryn Bell: I dropped back, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And applied the following year.

Kathryn Bell: And and and repeat. So [00:24:20] I repeated year 12. So which was good because that meant that the first two terms [00:24:25] were essentially revision. And given that I was recovering from having my [00:24:30] brain fiddled with, it was quite useful.

Payman Langroudi: Some of this, I mean, I’ve often heard cancer [00:24:35] survivors talk about a new lease of life. And, you know, in a way sort [00:24:40] of making sure every day counts after that. Do you? I’m sure there’s [00:24:45] an element of that in you right now.

Kathryn Bell: Always.

Payman Langroudi: But was it was it even as a 17 year old, did you [00:24:50] feel. Yeah, I’ve been given a chance and I’m going to make the most of it now.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: It became [00:24:55] really.

Kathryn Bell: Important to me. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of person were you before and [00:25:00] what kind of person did you become after? Like, were you? I don’t know, I don’t know, I’m [00:25:05] disorganised and lazy. Let’s say if I survive something like that, I might [00:25:10] pull up my pants and really become organised. I don’t know if that will work, but yeah. [00:25:15] Come on. What changed about you?

Kathryn Bell: I’ve always been very self-motivated. [00:25:20] Um, um. And I think that was. I [00:25:25] think it was. I don’t think I changed. I just think that certain elements of my personality were [00:25:30] enhanced in a way. So kind of that self-motivation. [00:25:35] And my parents always gave me the choice. They, you know, even at 17, [00:25:40] they, they trusted me to make the right choice for myself because they [00:25:45] knew that they could. I’d already proved that I, I could do what [00:25:50] I needed to.

Payman Langroudi: What were you, the oldest?

Kathryn Bell: No. My brother is eight years older than me.

Payman Langroudi: Are the two of you?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:25:55] Yeah. It’s just the two of us. Um, but, you know, I. In [00:26:00] year ten at school, I had been. I was a teenager, [00:26:05] and I let boys distract me for a little while, and I was in detention quite a lot. But then [00:26:10] when it mattered in year 11, that’s when I pulled my socks off. I was like, right, I, I can do better [00:26:15] than that. And again, it didn’t come externally. This was all from internal motivation. It’s like, [00:26:20] I want to do well and I’m basically going to prove everybody.

Payman Langroudi: U11’s GCSEs.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So my my my kids go to French school is.

Kathryn Bell: Different, different different.

Payman Langroudi: System. So [00:26:30] GCSEs you pulled your your socks.

Kathryn Bell: My socks up and I was like, and that’s actually when I started with [00:26:35] the headaches. But even despite the headaches, I was like, I say, I was still getting up every [00:26:40] morning. I was still going to school every day despite these horrendous headaches. Um, [00:26:45] because of that internal motivation, I was going to prove to all the people that said I [00:26:50] couldn’t get the GCSE results. I was going to prove to them that I could. Um, and I do quite like proving [00:26:55] people wrong in, in that regard. Um so, so [00:27:00] it didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny though the people like that are very interesting to me. I’ve had loads of people sitting where you’re not where you’re [00:27:05] sitting, but in the previous studio in the previous studio saying the same thing. Yeah. That I [00:27:10] don’t want, I want, I want to prove people wrong. And I’ve, I’ve noticed as a manipulator, [00:27:15] you can really use some reverse psychology on people like that.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You [00:27:20] tell me I can’t do something. And I’ll be like, okay.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t use enlightened though. It’s [00:27:25] not. You’re not up to it.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, I know exactly. I don’t think you can do it for [00:27:30] two weeks at home.

Payman Langroudi: So you, you went to Leeds?

Kathryn Bell: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And so I [00:27:35] guess Leeds, you grew up in Manchester. It’s a fair enough distance away.

Kathryn Bell: Yes. Again it [00:27:40] was that thing of I.

Payman Langroudi: Which Dental student were you at. So because of all of this were you the super [00:27:45] swot?

Kathryn Bell: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I still class myself [00:27:50] as a geek, a 100%. And I am proud to be a geek. I have no qualms about that [00:27:55] whatsoever. I love to learn. I love to know stuff. And if I don’t know something, I [00:28:00] will go and research it until I know it inside and out. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: I can tell from the way you talk. You’re [00:28:05] very precise about names of people and dates and all of that. Yeah. And so when [00:28:10] you’re learning is that question that you want to know the full story?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Yeah. I [00:28:15] don’t just want to know on the surface.

Payman Langroudi: I want to learn the three facts.

Kathryn Bell: No, I want to know [00:28:20] the. I want to know it inside and out. I really do. That’s. And again, I think that’s why I ended up doing [00:28:25] a master’s, because it’s a subject that I was super interested in and I wanted to know it.

Payman Langroudi: The master’s [00:28:30] was in what.

Kathryn Bell: Aesthetic medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Aesthetic medicine?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So, uh, in [00:28:35] fact, my results might be out today. So I literally handed in my dissertation about a month ago. And I think [00:28:40] today as results.

Payman Langroudi: Day was the station.

Kathryn Bell: Um, so I looked at, um, [00:28:45] how social media has the potential to influence the [00:28:50] perception of um, um, not ageing, [00:28:55] but more how, how people, aesthetic patients perception might be distorted [00:29:00] by social media. And it’s specifically looking at women aged 35 [00:29:05] to 55 because it’s a massively underrepresented age group [00:29:10] in research, in facial aesthetics. And yet they are one of the biggest age groups [00:29:15] that’s treated.

Payman Langroudi: And what was what was something that you found out that was so interesting.

Kathryn Bell: I [00:29:20] developed a whole, um, dysmorphic influence index.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:29:25] good on you.

Kathryn Bell: To assess how, [00:29:30] um, certain social media posts might have the potential to influence [00:29:35] people’s perception. Um, and it kind of, um, it had certain markers [00:29:40] and creates a score. So, and then it’s grouped as high, moderate or [00:29:45] low.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to get into it because, because, you know, you could have, we could have be having this conversation 20 years ago [00:29:50] and someone could say media. Mhm. You know, TV, TV and [00:29:55] films.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: We could be having it 40 years ago. Someone would say magazines and radio or [00:30:00] whatever it is.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But social has it’s got a particular sort of I don’t know how [00:30:05] you describe it. Is it like a comparison thing? You know, [00:30:10] it’s a great way of making you feel terrible about yourself in all realms of life. [00:30:15]

Kathryn Bell: Well, in all, yeah, all realms of life. Absolutely. Because I [00:30:20] hope that it is changing and that more people are actually trying to show the other side [00:30:25] of this side. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas a lot of it is manipulated [00:30:30] or people only show the best parts of, of their lives or the best results or, [00:30:35] um, any, anything related to that. It is all very not manipulated, [00:30:40] but curated, very curated. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, by the way, your own page, [00:30:45] beautifully curated. Absolutely.

Kathryn Bell: It is.

Payman Langroudi: Perfectly [00:30:50] manicured.

Kathryn Bell: Thank you to my social media manager. [00:30:55] Shout out to social media sister. Um, [00:31:00] but no, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But the type of posts that particularly is harmful [00:31:05] to go into that.

Kathryn Bell: So before and afters and filtered images, they’re [00:31:10] the two. Um, so one of the things you might have noticed on my page is that actually I don’t have a lot of before [00:31:15] and afters. And that is for that reason because, um, I [00:31:20] mean, thankfully people don’t generally manipulate them, [00:31:25] but there’s no way of easily determining whether the images are manipulated [00:31:30] in any way.

Payman Langroudi: Well, actually, you know, there’s a lot more manipulation going on than we [00:31:35] realise. Um, and I don’t know if you talk to big time [00:31:40] lecturers, all of them say that many people manipulate their, their Dental images, [00:31:45] even for teaching, which really surprised me.

Kathryn Bell: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Surprised.

Kathryn Bell: It’s a real [00:31:50] shame. Yeah, it’s a real shame. But then isn’t that down to our own insecurities [00:31:55] or their.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you can build a whole career on manipulated images, right? Because, you [00:32:00] know, if you can just rub out that little bit of whatever it is, suddenly everyone will think like, [00:32:05] wow, he’s a genius. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly. That is absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Right. At [00:32:10] the same time, I mean, we do a lot of social media, but before and after images work.

Kathryn Bell: They do. There’s no doubt about [00:32:15] that.

Payman Langroudi: Why are you even doing social media?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. It’s really hard to get that balance. [00:32:20] And, um, certainly one of the Acer stipulations [00:32:25] is to try and avoid using before and afters because they can, um, create [00:32:30] unrealistic expectations. And also everybody, because somebody might come [00:32:35] in asking for a certain treatment and say, I just don’t think, you know, that’s just [00:32:40] not the right treatment. And they’re like, well, I saw this image of that, you know, before and after where you did it. And they looked like [00:32:45] me before. And it’s like, yeah, but that isn’t your face.

Payman Langroudi: And everybody, it’s not [00:32:50] a car clutch. You’re changing.

Kathryn Bell: No, exactly. Exactly. Everybody’s anatomy is different. [00:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about facial aesthetics and how would you class the different sort of [00:33:00] categories. Firstly, in the career development of a dentist [00:33:05] who wants to go into it, and secondly, for patients, because, I mean, [00:33:10] let’s take it from the patient’s perspective. They could go to a full on, you [00:33:15] know, facelift. Yeah. Plastic surgeon on the one end. [00:33:20]

Kathryn Bell: Yep.

Payman Langroudi: Or on the other end. They could buy some cream.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s the sort of the [00:33:25] spectrum from a patient as well as let’s say the mental side of all of this.

Kathryn Bell: Oh. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: But what about for the dentist. I mean I’ve talked to loads of dentists. My wife, one of them um [00:33:35] who say, you know, she’s even done some training, but [00:33:40] the question of how to bring it up with patients at the very beginning. If you’ve just become someone [00:33:45] who’s just starting with some injectables or whatever it is, let me know. How do you start? [00:33:50] How do you start introducing that to patients?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, it’s so tricky. I mean, it really is. And this [00:33:55] is the biggest barrier. I think I would liken it a little bit to [00:34:00] how you introduce whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Um you ask that question. [00:34:05] I’m curious. You know, I’m just wondering, does [00:34:10] this bother you. And if they say no, you move on quickly. If they say yes. [00:34:15] But I’ve never known what to do about it. It’s like, well, there are some possible solutions. Would [00:34:20] you be interested in knowing what they are? So it’s never, ever. I’ve noticed this. You [00:34:25] could look so much better if we do this, you know. It’s very gentle because it isn’t for [00:34:30] everybody. And that’s totally okay. There’s nothing wrong.

Payman Langroudi: With [00:34:35] a patient who you know will benefit and you really want to help [00:34:40] them. You’re going to be. Aren’t you going to be a little bit more enthusiastic than that? Or is that [00:34:45] really how you start? You start very gently.

Kathryn Bell: Very gently. Yeah. I mean, if it’s a hard no, fine, [00:34:50] absolutely fine. Because what looks [00:34:55] like an imperfection to one person can be a characteristic to somebody else. You know, somebody [00:35:00] who’s bothered like a chipped front tooth. It might just be part of who they are. You know, they’re not bothered [00:35:05] even diastema. Right. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: I very enthusiastically when I was a dentist years ago, a as [00:35:10] a young dentist, I very enthusiastically told someone, yeah, I can fix this problem. And [00:35:15] she she was offended.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when you’re too young to know.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:20] she was like, I don’t see it as a problem. And I could tell she was offended by the way I approached [00:35:25] it. Yeah. I was too young to know that some people could be happy with that. Yeah, well.

Kathryn Bell: You do, [00:35:30] because you I mean, when you’re taught at dental school, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Taught this.

Kathryn Bell: Stuff. No, you’re not taught that. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: You said psychology was your number one A-level. Your most useful A-level.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:40] not the one that was required at all.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, exactly. And and even at university [00:35:45] we did behavioural sciences. But a lot of that wasn’t actually [00:35:50] relevant to, to what.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in whitening, the way that we teach on how to get over [00:35:55] this issue is to take it away from personalising it to that patient. [00:36:00] Yeah. And for instance, if the question is, have you ever thought about teeth whitening? Yeah. The [00:36:05] next part of that question is we’re asking everyone.

Kathryn Bell: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because yeah. [00:36:10] Because it’s important to um in your world it would be. Have you ever thought about [00:36:15] a facial analysis. We’re asking everyone because yeah, yeah, yeah. As [00:36:20] long as you take it away from that individual. Yeah. Suddenly it’s cool.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:36:25] Have you ever tried that approach.

Kathryn Bell: No I’ve not I like that I’m going to steal it.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s good for once. Yeah. Have you [00:36:30] ever thought about, uh, braces? We’re asking everyone because we’ve got this new scanner.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whitening. [00:36:35] We’re asking everyone because there’s an offer. Yeah. Facial aesthetic. We’re asking everyone because we’ve got a new service.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, exactly. [00:36:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s good for once.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, this is it. And I. And I’ve got, um, quite nicely. I [00:36:45] have got a facial scanner.

Payman Langroudi: Have you.

Kathryn Bell: Have you, have you. Yeah. And again that is um [00:36:50] just a really useful tool.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So, so you answered that bit how to get the initial sort [00:36:55] of thing going then I expect you must be well known, well known now in [00:37:00] Chippenham for being, you know, one of your facial facial aesthetics expert. What’s [00:37:05] the next? Let’s call it marketing level. Is it purely sort of organic [00:37:10] Instagram or do you do you do some paid stuff or.

Kathryn Bell: I don’t do any paid stuff. [00:37:15] Are you.

Payman Langroudi: Out there somehow in the community shouting about.

Kathryn Bell: It? No not particularly. We do [00:37:20] like localised, um, like events within the practice. In fact, we’re working [00:37:25] on.

Payman Langroudi: Open day type.

Kathryn Bell: Stuff. Exactly. So our next one is actually based on skin treatments [00:37:30] rather than injectables. Mhm. Because there is still quite [00:37:35] a lot of fear around injectable treatments understandably. Absolutely. And it’s [00:37:40] I think, again, predominantly it is around how they are portrayed. [00:37:45] People worry that they’re going to be noticeable. They’re going to have big fish lips or, [00:37:50] you know, frozen faces when actually you can individually [00:37:55] individualise results so that they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s so interesting, isn’t it, that when [00:38:00] when it’s the same with, with, with cosmetic dentistry, right? When you can see it, it’s [00:38:05] because it’s been done not so well.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. That’s exactly it. It’s the [00:38:10] the subtle results where, okay, somebody who knows you really, really well and has [00:38:15] known you for a long time may notice. But other people are just going to say.

Payman Langroudi: Something [00:38:20] you said in the jazz podcast about, let’s say you’re doing lips, do it in small increments. [00:38:25]

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Such an interesting point. So so true. Sometimes I remember [00:38:30] years ago, I did some veneers for a patient. She was over the moon and nurse was over the moon. I was over the [00:38:35] moon. Everyone was happy. Went home. Someone said something, came back and said, I want them changed. Yeah. And [00:38:40] you know that other person, that third party or family member or whatever is [00:38:45] a key person. I remember afterwards, after that happened, obviously with veneers, you can’t increase them [00:38:50] incrementally. I used to tell patients, someone in your in your life is not going to like them [00:38:55] to give them that warning.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that too?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s really important. [00:39:00] Um, but for aesthetics, as I say, Generally, I [00:39:05] don’t do big changes because often it’s too much for the patient [00:39:10] themselves. They don’t want to see that big difference. They want to look in the mirror and think, oh, I [00:39:15] look fresh faced. And some of the treatments that I do, they’re not immediately noticeable. [00:39:20] But after about 3 to 6 weeks, you can see it. And often I [00:39:25] warn people, I say, look, you’re not going to notice anything, but in a few weeks you’re going to look [00:39:30] in the mirror and you go, oh, my skin looks amazing. And that’s the treatment that I’ve done that. [00:39:35] Um, so I feel like a slow builder is so much [00:39:40] more beneficial than a massive wow. I mean, for some people, if that’s what they want, then maybe actually [00:39:45] it’s surgery that’s going to be a better option. And it’s important to discuss that as [00:39:50] an option for people as well. As you say, there’s a massive spectrum and people need to know their treatment options [00:39:55] just as for any other treatment.

Payman Langroudi: I had no idea what a big area it was. Now [00:40:00] I’ve been talking to some dentists about it. Um, but tell me the bit that the obviously [00:40:05] the difference between injectables and skin creams and treatments and peels and [00:40:10] all of that. But do some, do some people not offer both? No. Most people offer [00:40:15] both.

Kathryn Bell: Um, no. Well, actually no, most people don’t offer both. Offer both. Yeah. But then [00:40:20] again, it’s it’s, it’s not only a journey for patients. It’s often a journey for the practitioner. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I mean.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so let’s, let’s go through the skin treatments [00:40:30] first.

Kathryn Bell: Sure. So I mean, there’s a whole whole range. Some of them I don’t offer myself, but there’s things [00:40:35] like lasers, peels of different levels, microneedling, exosomes, [00:40:40] they’re kind of the predominant non injectables. But then you go onto [00:40:45] injectables like skin boosters, polynucleotides um things [00:40:50] like.

Payman Langroudi: Injectables other than toxins and fillers. I didn’t [00:40:55] know about this.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. This is all this.

Payman Langroudi: Is, is this new?

Kathryn Bell: I mean, not, not that new. [00:41:00] There’s the there have been bio stimulators out on the market for quite a long time. But [00:41:05] there’s I think, again, the public perception is coming around to this idea of [00:41:10] actually work with what you’ve got, but just boost it. You [00:41:15] know, and again, it’s for people who don’t necessarily want the kind of reduced [00:41:20] muscle movement or the increased volume, which is basically what toxins [00:41:25] and filler do. There’s other things that can be done. And I think that’s [00:41:30] the bit that’s.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve definitely heard the word bio nuclear, but what does it do?

Kathryn Bell: What’s that? Sorry? The polynucleotide.

Payman Langroudi: Polynucleotide. [00:41:35]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So they, um, they’re basically a strand of RNA. [00:41:40] And so they work with, with your own um, biology to enhance [00:41:45] the skin. So really useful around the eyes because they help with [00:41:50] um angiogenesis. So blood capillary blood vessel [00:41:55] formation and skin thickening. So one of the things around the eyes as we age is skin [00:42:00] gets thinner. So if you’re increasing the robustness of the skin around there, [00:42:05] it helps to reduce the appearance of fine lines and that crepey skin that you get. Um, [00:42:10] and also even very, very fine hyaluronic acid. So not [00:42:15] so much fillers, which are quite thick, but very, very fluid hyaluronic acid [00:42:20] materials around the eye just increases the hydration as well. So there’s all sorts of, [00:42:25] and the exosomes which are basically, um, cell to cell [00:42:30] communication. And we’re looking at activating the fibroblasts, which stimulate [00:42:35] collagen production and just improving the health of the skin from within. So [00:42:40] the skin looks healthy and the tone is, is less because [00:42:45] we associate kind of pallor and almost that kind of waxy appearance [00:42:50] with age. And so that’s kind of looking at, um, not reversing it, but slowing [00:42:55] that process down. Um, I remember going to a Frank Speer [00:43:00] lecture, and I don’t know if it was his words or if he was quoting somebody else, [00:43:05] but it was helping your patient to get worse at the slowest possible rate. And so, [00:43:10] and that’s basically what facial aesthetics.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve used all of these. Which one stands out?

Kathryn Bell: Oh, [00:43:15] that is really difficult because it depends on the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I suppose. [00:43:20]

Kathryn Bell: It depends on the patient. But I a polynucleotides are probably the newest kid on the block. [00:43:25] There isn’t as much research into them, but there is some really [00:43:30] interesting early research research about the impact of it. Um, [00:43:35] and I think that they are going to be massive over the next few years as that research, [00:43:40] um, comes about.

Payman Langroudi: And risks wise. Any of them, any of them risky? [00:43:45]

Kathryn Bell: I mean, all treatment has risks. Yeah. Um, not to the same sort [00:43:50] of level as the, the fillers. I mean anything with hyaluronic acid you have got [00:43:55] the risk of.

Payman Langroudi: Blood vessel occlusion.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. So even even the [00:44:00] fine ones, the biggest risks are things like bruising, swelling, um, [00:44:05] uh, a allergic reaction or infection. But again, all of [00:44:10] those things you try and reduce the risk of when, when you’re carrying out the treatments.

Payman Langroudi: And from the [00:44:15] business side. Which one of these is most expensive or the one that you can [00:44:20] make the most out of or.

Kathryn Bell: The, the that is all down to combination treatments. [00:44:25] So, um, for example, I have a patient [00:44:30] who comes in every three months for her toxins. And [00:44:35] then in between she’ll come in for her polynucleotides and skin boosters. [00:44:40] So I see her about every six weeks. Um, so I think it’s those combination [00:44:45] treatments.

Payman Langroudi: What is it like £300 every six weeks? Is that. I don’t [00:44:50] want to be reductive.

Kathryn Bell: No, no no. So we’re looking so that’s around about £800 every [00:44:55] six weeks.

Payman Langroudi: And a relatively stress free appointment for you. Yeah, compared to drilling [00:45:00] and filling. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: I mean, this is somebody that I see regularly and I [00:45:05] know her really well.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, isn’t it? You don’t need many of those before you’ve got a whole career. No. [00:45:10] I mean, how many of those do you need? 20. Yeah. That’s it exactly. [00:45:15]

Kathryn Bell: Exactly. But again, for her, we’re not doing we’re not doing any fillers. We are [00:45:20] looking we’re doing the skin and the muscle. We’re not going on the deeper layers. It’s just [00:45:25] maintaining. She’s very well maintained.

Payman Langroudi: So tell [00:45:30] me a horror story.

Kathryn Bell: From facial aesthetics.

Payman Langroudi: One of your own.

Kathryn Bell: Not not yeah of course.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:45:35] not not not one you’ve heard from someone else like what’s gone wrong.

Kathryn Bell: So I think with facial aesthetics, [00:45:40] the hardest thing is the psychology. Um, and I [00:45:45] had a patient who, I [00:45:50] bless her, she, I knew that something wasn’t. Okay. [00:45:55] You know, there.

Payman Langroudi: Was something something.

Kathryn Bell: Was going on. Something was going on. Um, [00:46:00] and she, she actually came to me from another practitioner. [00:46:05] And that’s always a little bit of a okay.

Payman Langroudi: You know, just like dentistry, right?

Kathryn Bell: Just like dentistry. [00:46:10] Absolutely. And, um, and she was having, she had [00:46:15] previously had fillers. Um, and again, she was very well maintained. Um, [00:46:20] and I was asked during the consultation, [00:46:25] I, you know, I was, I was assessing kind of her responses to the [00:46:30] questions I was asking. And I like to drop in a little bit about, you [00:46:35] know, how much, how much does this bother you? How long do you spend worrying [00:46:40] about this? But she was very blasé. But still there was this little alarm [00:46:45] bell going off. But and I didn’t listen to it. And that was my biggest mistake. [00:46:50] So I did go ahead and treat her. And then she came back for [00:46:55] the review and she brought a mirror, her own mirror, out of her bag. And I think [00:47:00] it must have been like 50 times magnification. And she kind of held it about here and, [00:47:05] um, and she was asking about an area here and I was like, well, this was an area that [00:47:10] we treated. And she goes, well, who, who puts fillers there? I’m like, well, you can, you [00:47:15] can basically put fillers anywhere. And she’s like, well, this doesn’t look right. And [00:47:20] I was like, okay. Now, luckily I had taken before photos and so I was able [00:47:25] to bring those up and we discussed them about them. But regardless, she, she was, she wasn’t [00:47:30] happy. And again, there’s, there’s definitely an element of, of dysmorphic [00:47:35] disorder. Um, and it has to be handled so carefully [00:47:40] because you don’t want to offend, you don’t want to turn around and say, [00:47:45] this is all in your head because it isn’t, you know, it’s a real, it’s [00:47:50] real. Um, but I, you know, I said, okay, no, I appreciate [00:47:55] that, but I just don’t think I can do any more for you at this point. I just don’t [00:48:00] think that I can achieve what you want me to achieve. Um, and [00:48:05] so she left very unhappy. But yeah, so I think that’s, that’s [00:48:10] probably one of the.

Payman Langroudi: I like it, but not a lot.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a more juicy [00:48:15] story?

Kathryn Bell: A more juicy.

Payman Langroudi: Story? Like something actually goes wrong.

Kathryn Bell: I’ve never had anything like a vascular [00:48:20] occlusion. Never. I’ve been very lucky.

Payman Langroudi: Never had anyone try and sue you. [00:48:25]

Kathryn Bell: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: For facial?

Kathryn Bell: No.

Payman Langroudi: Body dysmorphia [00:48:30] is interesting. Yeah. Because I know someone who’s got body dysmorphia and he he he’s fully aware. [00:48:35]

Kathryn Bell: Oh, interesting.

Payman Langroudi: And he has things done in, in almost like [00:48:40] in a way that I don’t know if you, let’s say you want to give up alcohol or something, you go for one last [00:48:45] party or something. He’s like that. He’s like, once I fix my [00:48:50] ears, then I’m going to really have a go at, you know, understanding this. And it’s [00:48:55] and it’s a strange thing. It comes and goes, but then you’ve got other people who are undiagnosed, [00:49:00] if you like, massively. That’s the real problem.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s much more [00:49:05] prevalent, obviously within aesthetics because they are often the people [00:49:10] who seek treatments.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and often I heard you say in [00:49:15] the other pod that body dysmorphia has a link to sexual abuse as a child, but [00:49:20] any abuse as a child. Right. Bullying, that sort of thing. It’s anything, [00:49:25] anything that has anything to do with the way you look in any sense, I suppose.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:49:30] you do you have you had to go down that road asking those questions or.

Kathryn Bell: No. No, [00:49:35] because that’s not for me to do. My my job is to screen [00:49:40] and then refer.

Payman Langroudi: I was do you know Gabor, [00:49:45] mate?

Kathryn Bell: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I was at his talk last night. Oh, really? And he was saying. He said, who [00:49:50] here has seen a specialist doctor? Almost everyone put their hands up. He [00:49:55] goes, who here has been asked by their specialist doctor what their childhood was like? And no [00:50:00] one had. And obviously he’s got that whole thing where he says, everything’s to do with your childhood.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, [00:50:05] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s an interesting thing that we don’t, you know, we stick [00:50:10] to our own narrow area. And the more we specialise, the more we [00:50:15] stick to our area.

Kathryn Bell: So true. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but someone like you who’s, who’s got [00:50:20] the kind of the, some sort of psychology background might want to go into that. [00:50:25]

Kathryn Bell: Right. I mean, I do. I mean, I’m quite an open person myself. So, [00:50:30] you know, I mean, within limits with patients because you [00:50:35] have to have that professional line. But I do ask my patients, you know, what’s going [00:50:40] on at home. Mhm. And I know, for example, that this patient [00:50:45] who presented for treatment and I’m almost certain had [00:50:50] body dysmorphia. I know that her. She was caring [00:50:55] for her husband at the time. Um, and he was becoming increasingly [00:51:00] ill, so her world was almost becoming much smaller as a result. [00:51:05] Um, and I think that probably had a massive impact, um, for, for how [00:51:10] she was perceiving herself, um, because her role in life had changed [00:51:15] and she was basically her husband’s carer now. Um, and so I think, I mean, you [00:51:20] know, again, I’m not a psychiatrist, but that has to surely have some sort of play [00:51:25] in it. And maybe again, you know, that was something happened to her when she was younger and it was kind [00:51:30] of just triggering. Who knows. But, um, I think it’s you’re right. [00:51:35] We need to have an awareness, but it isn’t our job to, to diagnose in [00:51:40] that kind of.

Payman Langroudi: What percentage of your work is facial and [00:51:45] what percentage is just regular dentistry.

Kathryn Bell: So at the moment I [00:51:50] do around about 27 clinical hours, um.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:51:55] total.

Kathryn Bell: In total. Um, and facial [00:52:00] aesthetic treatments probably makes up around about two hours a week. [00:52:05] Now. In the past I’ve done more. Um, but we are in [00:52:10] a, an area, so I’ve only been at the practice for about two and a half years. [00:52:15] And part of the reason I was brought in was to grow that area. I’m not the only [00:52:20] aesthetics practitioner within that business. Oh, really? Um, and so, um, [00:52:25] myself and Emma are actively trying to grow this and this is why we’re doing kind of our, [00:52:30] our skincare evening, where we’re going to bring out the skin scanner [00:52:35] and try and focus on that element of the facial [00:52:40] aesthetics, because that is often it just reduces people fear about [00:52:45] aesthetics. So we are trying to grow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you only work in this one? Colosseum dental.

Kathryn Bell: Practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, [00:52:50] but you could you could work in a facial aesthetics place, right? Yeah. And I’ve been doing a lot more.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. [00:52:55] And I’ve worked in facial aesthetics clinics previously. Um, [00:53:00] I still, I still like doing dentistry. I just want to [00:53:05] grow the facial aesthetics a bit more. And that’s, and that’s what my, what my current role [00:53:10] is, is there for is to kind of grow that field.

Payman Langroudi: And this col role that you’ve [00:53:15] got within Colosseum. So first of all, how did that come about?

Kathryn Bell: So [00:53:20] Fazeela asked me to do that. And again, because, um, the facial aesthetics [00:53:25] had jumped quite a lot. So I started within the business in June 24th. [00:53:30] And then for the year of 2025, the facial [00:53:35] aesthetics had really grown within the business. Um, and so that was on the back of that. [00:53:40] She asked me to, to be the col for, for the business. And [00:53:45] part of that role is kind of working with suppliers and, um, training [00:53:50] providers and also developing our own training so [00:53:55] that we can concentrate on, um, because I think at the moment, I think there’s around [00:54:00] about 30 dentists who offer facial aesthetics within the business. [00:54:05] Um, and there’s seven, I can’t remember how many dentists are within [00:54:10] 80 practices. There’s 80 practices. Yeah. So there’s a lot of dentists, but they’re not [00:54:15] active within with the facial aesthetics. So I want to try and build it and [00:54:20] work on how we can get that. I almost my vision [00:54:25] is to have almost the aesthetic side to be, I want [00:54:30] Colosseum dental to be synonymous with dentists providing aesthetics. [00:54:35] So I just want people to almost think that when they hear Colosseum Dental, that’s [00:54:40] the. They’re the dentists to go to.

Payman Langroudi: Challenging though, because Colosseum’s practices historically [00:54:45] were very NHS. Right. So you know, it’s it’s a big challenge to pull [00:54:50] that off.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Absolutely. But then, you know, it’s [00:54:55] all about people’s priorities, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: And what [00:55:00] you can change these things. Of course. Of course. My priority is to get Colosseum talking about enlightened. Right? [00:55:05] Yes.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Good people at Colosseum.

Kathryn Bell: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know Charlotte as well?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, I love [00:55:10] Charlotte. Yeah. She lives down the road from me.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Absolutely amazing. What’s her role? The COO? [00:55:15] Yes, chief operating officer.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant. And so I’d like to go into this women [00:55:20] in dentistry kind of talking about Colosseum looks like dominated by women. Yeah. So, [00:55:25] um, hopefully you might go up the ranks as well. Are you [00:55:30] interested in that.

Kathryn Bell: Oh absolutely. I can see, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: A management role.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. I mean I, I [00:55:35] love educating. I love educating and I, and I’d [00:55:40] love to grow into a leadership role. Um, again, kind of focusing on helping [00:55:45] other clinicians and helping to develop them [00:55:50] within their own roles. I would love that. I’d absolutely love that.

Payman Langroudi: And you said you’re going [00:55:55] to do a course internally.

Kathryn Bell: Yes. That’s my, that’s my aim. Um, so I’ve, I’ve built [00:56:00] a course and hoping to. So it’s an aesthetics based course, [00:56:05] kind of. Um, and I’m hoping to deliver that in kind of January, [00:56:10] February time.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s the start. Yeah, absolutely.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So it’s already [00:56:15] been built. It’s there, it’s ready to go. Um, but yeah, delivering that hopefully in kind of January, [00:56:20] February time.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your view of women in dentistry right now? I mean, as a, what would [00:56:25] you say state of the union wise? You’ve been in, you’ve been in what, 20 years.

Kathryn Bell: 21 [00:56:30] years now? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So compared to when you qualified to now, do [00:56:35] you think we’re heading in the right direction? Do you think there’s plenty more to do. Do you think? What [00:56:40] I mean? How? How much should we do? Are you. Are you in favour of women [00:56:45] only lists for jobs or you know how how how much should we do? [00:56:50]

Kathryn Bell: It’s about. It is very much. I, I am very much about [00:56:55] equality, I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think there isn’t.

Kathryn Bell: Well, to a certain extent. [00:57:00] So my year at Leeds was the first year where the female [00:57:05] students outnumbered the male students. And I think dentistry [00:57:10] on the ground with patient facing clinicians is now [00:57:15] predominated by women. I think there’s a higher percentage of women. But [00:57:20] as you get further up the ladder into kind of practice, ownership and leadership roles, it’s [00:57:25] heavily weighted the other way. Um, and I, and again, coming down to [00:57:30] kind of psychology, is that down to the fact that women do take career breaks for [00:57:35] having families, you know, we are still the primary caregiver [00:57:40] in the majority of cases, not in all cases, but in the majority of cases. [00:57:45] Um, and so, you know, is that one of the things that is great about dentistry is [00:57:50] there isn’t a pay gap. Female dentists are paid the same as male dentists. It is [00:57:55] exactly the same. Um, whereas obviously in other industries that isn’t the case. And [00:58:00] people with the same job will be paid differently.

Payman Langroudi: That’s real.

Kathryn Bell: What’s that.

Payman Langroudi: Pay.

Kathryn Bell: Gap?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:05] don’t believe in it.

Kathryn Bell: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Because if that was real, then you’d just hire women, wouldn’t you? [00:58:10] If that. If that was the case.

Kathryn Bell: Well, you’d.

Payman Langroudi: Think, why would you hire a.

Kathryn Bell: Man? No, I agree.

Payman Langroudi: If you could pay a woman less. [00:58:15]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. No I agree.

Payman Langroudi: I think I think women do earn less because of what you said before.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. In [00:58:20] terms of childcare and all that career breaks.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but [00:58:25] I don’t know, man. I think dentistry is one of the areas where women are very much as [00:58:30] equal. Yeah. I would put a sort of proviso to that, a caveat to that. And I’d say that [00:58:35] we’ve got a huge issue with women in dentistry, but not amongst dentists. No, [00:58:40] I’d say amongst the nurses, the receptionist, the hygienists, some of the ways they talk [00:58:45] to, maybe even by women, I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know. There’s a massive hierarchy issue. [00:58:50]

Kathryn Bell: I hate.

Payman Langroudi: That dentistry. And one of the things I love about corporates is that there is a good career [00:58:55] pathway.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you can start as a trainee nurse and end up as chief operating [00:59:00] officer of a corporate if you play your cards right. If you’re in the right corporate. Whereas a lot of times [00:59:05] in practices, one of my bugbears is I talked to some dentists and they literally don’t want [00:59:10] their nurse to be ambitious because.

Kathryn Bell: They’re.

Payman Langroudi: Nurses to stay there and be a nurse. You know, [00:59:15] by the way, some some nurses want that too. They put their own lives, they want to turn up, do their [00:59:20] job and leave.

Kathryn Bell: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: But your reflections on what it was like 20 years ago, [00:59:25] what it’s like today, where you’d like to see improvement.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So again, it’s more about [00:59:30] that career progression for female dentists, clinicians, And [00:59:35] I think, um, and certainly for myself, obviously with having Fazila as [00:59:40] our CMO having. Yeah. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: So inspirational.

Kathryn Bell: So, so inspirational [00:59:45] because it’s that kind of view. It’s like, well, if she can do [00:59:50] it, then there is proof that we can do it. You know, we, we can get into leadership [00:59:55] and Charlotte as well, you know, we can get, we, there’s, there’s leadership roles for women [01:00:00] within dentistry. And I think that’s, I think that’s a big deal because it’s [01:00:05] one thing being told it, but it’s another to see it. And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I [01:00:10] really love the, the team within Colosseum is that [01:00:15] they’re, they’re all very approachable. It’s not like there isn’t that [01:00:20] hierarchy.

Payman Langroudi: I think they’ve tried really hard on the retention of dentists side, because [01:00:25] not long ago that people were leaving.

Kathryn Bell: Big churn rate.

Payman Langroudi: Big, [01:00:30] big churn. I mean, she’s she said 60% in two years or something, and [01:00:35] now it’s completely been turned around.

Kathryn Bell: I think it’s really low. I can’t remember. Something like 11%. [01:00:40] I think it is now.

Payman Langroudi: And one interesting thing is that as a corporate, even as [01:00:45] a single practitioner, maybe your your customer is the dentist, not [01:00:50] the patient. And of course, the customer is the patient. But, but the customer is the dentist as.

Kathryn Bell: A certain [01:00:55] extent. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Especially as a corporate. Right. Because there’s this sort of issue with.

Kathryn Bell: You haven’t got [01:01:00] a business without your dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Um, I mean, [01:01:05] like, I mean, you haven’t got a business without your patients, but you haven’t got a business without, without your dentists [01:01:10] as a well corporate or DSO or whatever you want to call them.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, why do [01:01:15] you think you’ve never gone down the road of opening your own practice or buying your own practice? I mean, this [01:01:20] this comes down to this question of, you know, why aren’t more women owners?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What do you [01:01:25] reckon it is?

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely. Right.

Payman Langroudi: There are the the six kids going for four [01:01:30] step kids and two of your room.

Kathryn Bell: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yes, that has absolutely [01:01:35] played a part. Um financially as well as anything. But I mean my, my husband [01:01:40] is a mortgage advisor. So you are absolutely right. Why haven’t we opened our own business. [01:01:45] And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It raised the money. Right.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly, exactly. Especially at the moment [01:01:50] I think it’s. Isn’t it. 0% finance on um. Yeah. He [01:01:55] was telling, he was telling me that um but I think it’s boils down to timing. The timing just hasn’t [01:02:00] been there. Um and it’s only really now [01:02:05] at 45, nearly 46 that, that kind of leadership role. [01:02:10] But now having worked within a corporate, I feel that I’d [01:02:15] like to almost do it on a bigger scale if I can, you know, that kind of, um, [01:02:20] leading from within type of.

Payman Langroudi: Certainly you can feel like you’ve [01:02:25] had more impact. Exactly. 80 practices.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, exactly. So I [01:02:30] feel that that might be the area that I’m growing into now, for sure.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:02:35] no regrets on that side? No.

Kathryn Bell: No, I and again, I think this boils down [01:02:40] to what happened to me at 17. I don’t have any regrets because I wouldn’t [01:02:45] be the person that I am now if I had made different choices along my life. [01:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get on to mistakes.

Kathryn Bell: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Usually I talk about clinical mistakes, [01:02:55] but I think we’ve kind of been there. But. But whatever comes to mind. What would you reckon an error [01:03:00] that you’ve made in your career?

Kathryn Bell: Um, there was an error [01:03:05] that I made. Well, again.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I’m up for another clinical mistake. If if you don’t want to go for facial aesthetics.

Kathryn Bell: No [01:03:10] that’s fine. This was this was down to, again, kind of career based. Um, [01:03:15] and it’s only now with hindsight that I don’t necessarily see it as [01:03:20] an error, but I think that’s more to do with the fact that I like to learn from things that haven’t necessarily [01:03:25] gone the right way. Um, but it was Following the birth of [01:03:30] my son, who’s now 12. And, um, I kind of got headhunted, [01:03:35] so I was working in a very, very busy NHS practice, [01:03:40] and I had been thinking about kind of making a move towards doing more private work, um, [01:03:45] having previously. So my history was that obviously I went to university [01:03:50] at Leeds. Um, and I lived and worked in Yorkshire for five [01:03:55] years after that. And then my now husband and I got together, he was playing rugby [01:04:00] in bath at the time, and it was much easier for me, for me to get professionally. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:04:05] really?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Bless him. He’s broken now. But he had a long professional [01:04:10] rugby career. Um, and so it was easier for me to move up sticks and move down [01:04:15] here. Um and so I went from being in a predominantly private practice back [01:04:20] to working in the NHS, which was okay at the time. Um, but I’d reached a point where I was like, [01:04:25] I, I’m a bit broken from this now and and and then I got pregnant with my [01:04:30] now 12 year old. And I kind of got headhunted while I was on maternity [01:04:35] leave for a start up. But it was a Start-Up within [01:04:40] a corporate. So it was at a, a health centre in [01:04:45] Bristol. Um and they’d previously had a um, [01:04:50] I think it was a breast care centre within the building and they [01:04:55] changed it into a dental service and they were looking for a dentist, [01:05:00] a nurse and a hygienist. Um and so I think [01:05:05] it was via LinkedIn that they reached, I can’t remember how they, I think it was that they reached out to me and [01:05:10] I was like, yeah, great timing. Let’s, let’s have a look at this. And so I [01:05:15] joined this practice and, uh, I was [01:05:20] on a day rate of £300 a day.

Kathryn Bell: And it was [01:05:25] meant to be for the first three months because they were like, you know, with the, um, [01:05:30] the schemes that we’ve got going, we’re confident that you’re going to be booked up. And I was only [01:05:35] returning, I was looking at doing three days a week, um, because my son was only a few months old at that point. [01:05:40] Um, and so three days a week and hopefully within [01:05:45] about three months, my days would be full. Um, but after three months, my days [01:05:50] were still basically seeing one patient a day and I was like, look, I can’t make [01:05:55] an income on this. You need to keep me on the day rate for longer. So they did. They extended the day [01:06:00] rates six months later, maybe five patients a day. And [01:06:05] I was like, I can’t make a living from this. And in the end, I ended up staying there. I [01:06:10] think about 18 months. And still at the end of that, I, I [01:06:15] just didn’t have a full day at all. So I just the [01:06:20] planning or marketing or whatever that had gone into opening. [01:06:25] It, and it must have cost so much money.

Payman Langroudi: To the stress of private. Right? Yeah. A lot of people think you [01:06:30] leave the NHS and you just as busy doing much more expensive dentistry, but private [01:06:35] is full of that stress, right? Yes. Not enough patients.

Kathryn Bell: Big time.

Payman Langroudi: Sitting around a lot. [01:06:40] Yeah. And as dentists sitting around if you feel so wrong. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: I [01:06:45] just think it’s not built into us that that doing nothing.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you could write, you could do [01:06:50] something, but somehow you’re just sitting there.

Kathryn Bell: Staring.

Payman Langroudi: Waiting job like that. Luckily, [01:06:55] I thought thought up enlightened in that in that time. But but it was just a lucky thing. [01:07:00] It wasn’t. Yeah. It’s such I get asked this all the time. You know, young dentists [01:07:05] want to avoid NHS altogether. And then they’ll say, I’ve been offered a job where there’s no patients. [01:07:10] What do you think?

Kathryn Bell: How do you get experience though? It’s tricky, isn’t [01:07:15] it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. Although I don’t normally give that advice of you have to do NHS. [01:07:20]

Kathryn Bell: No, no no.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I mean some people do and some people don’t. It depends the part of country you’re at, the time you’re [01:07:25] at and all that. Yeah. Um, the idea of I get my experience on these NHS [01:07:30] patients and then I’ll use it for my private. In a way, I find that weird a bit strange, [01:07:35] you know, although it is good experience. It’s good experience.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. I mean, in [01:07:40] all sorts of ways it’s, it’s a good experience.

Payman Langroudi: But I think it’s a bad experience as well because it gives you sort [01:07:45] of bad habits as well because you’re rushing all the time.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. That’s that’s well, it wasn’t so [01:07:50] much the rushing that I found difficult. Um, but I reached, I reached a point where [01:07:55] I burnt out in the NHS mentally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean mentally, physically, I [01:08:00] think every, every level I was just.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to talk about.

Kathryn Bell: It. Yeah. Happy to happy to um [01:08:05] so I mean, I was, it was, you know, standard NHS practice like 30, 40 [01:08:10] patients a day. Um, I had, I think I worked 830 [01:08:15] till 530. Lucky, like many lucky to get a lunch break because you’re running late. [01:08:20] Um, and I had Wednesdays off. I can’t remember if I had a half day or a full [01:08:25] day off on a Wednesday, but I know I had some time off on a Wednesday. Um, and I think it’s, [01:08:30] it’s difficult because on the NHS, there’s, there’s pressure from [01:08:35] every, every aspect. So there’s, there’s pressure from the practice owners, [01:08:40] you know, you’ve got to deliver, there’s pressure from the patients, there’s pressure from yourself. [01:08:45] Um, and I found it really tricky because there’s [01:08:50] also that aspect of you’ve also got to convert patients to try [01:08:55] and almost sell private treatment. And, and [01:09:00] that, that I found really difficult to mentally because. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Especially when the rules say, you can’t say one’s better than the other and all of that.

Kathryn Bell: Exactly. [01:09:10] And, and that was the bit that I found hardest. And the, the. [01:09:15] And with private dentistry, you offer the best treatment. [01:09:20] You know, you recommend as as women, so you recommend the best treatment [01:09:25] for that patient. You discuss other options, but you are allowed to say, I think [01:09:30] for you in these circumstances stances, this would be your best option. And [01:09:35] I trying to have conversations with patients [01:09:40] in ten minute appointments.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a, it’s a nightmare. Yeah. I take [01:09:45] my hat off to anyone who manages to pull it off.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Same here. I have [01:09:50] so much respect for dentists within the NHS because I couldn’t do [01:09:55] it. I mean, we.

Payman Langroudi: Did it for many years, right?

Kathryn Bell: I did, I did um.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about the burnout moment. [01:10:00]

Kathryn Bell: So again, I think there was a point where, um, I was, I [01:10:05] was just so burnt out and it showed in my ability to turn up for work. So [01:10:10] I was taking sick days where there were days where, I mean, I was just sick all the time. [01:10:15] Um, because I was just every level Physically [01:10:20] burns out. Emotionally burnt out.

Payman Langroudi: Couldn’t get out of bed.

Kathryn Bell: Couldn’t get out of bed, you know, [01:10:25] and, and to the point where I was actually genuinely ill with like one [01:10:30] thing. I mean, I’m prone to getting ill anyway. Um, but this was and [01:10:35] bear in mind that I am the person that at 17, literally dragged myself to school every day when [01:10:40] I had horrendous headaches.

Payman Langroudi: Did you link those to sort of the mental [01:10:45] side of those two events?

Kathryn Bell: Never. No, no. But I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so [01:10:50] what you’re saying is that you actually could get through.

Kathryn Bell: At.

Payman Langroudi: 17 stress and headache to get [01:10:55] yourself to work, get yourself to school. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: But then when I hit burnout, I couldn’t, [01:11:00] I just couldn’t, I was just.

Payman Langroudi: What did.

Kathryn Bell: You do?

Payman Langroudi: Um, did you see a doctor?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Yeah, [01:11:05] absolutely. Yeah. I was prescribed antidepressants. Um, and [01:11:10] I, to be honest, I just struggled on and then obviously I fell pregnant [01:11:15] and I think. And then I got headhunted. So it just came.

Payman Langroudi: This was around that time?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah [01:11:20] yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it came at the right time.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah. And again, it is like I say.

Payman Langroudi: Your [01:11:25] baby saved your life.

Kathryn Bell: My baby saved my life. Thank you. Zander.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:11:30] interesting.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. Bless him. He’s he’s a he’s he’s a great guy. Um, but [01:11:35] yeah, so it was, it was just one of those things again, where things just kind of slotted [01:11:40] into place and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Should take a role in Colosseum around that too. You [01:11:45] know.

Kathryn Bell: I’d love to.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a lot of NHS going on Colosseum.

Kathryn Bell: Well this but.

Payman Langroudi: This is there may be, there [01:11:50] may be, you know, there’s 30 facial aesthetics practices. There may be 30 people in Colosseum in the same. [01:11:55]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Sort of.

Kathryn Bell: Experience.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely all [01:12:00] heading that way.

Payman Langroudi: And I would look at that, you know, I would look at that, you know, sometimes [01:12:05] in, in work, like I do this podcast, right? And, you know, [01:12:10] we don’t even take adverts.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: On this podcast. Yeah. We, we could, [01:12:15] we could all the time people are asking and I even change that situation, I don’t know. But [01:12:20] this is the bit of my work that gives the least financially. And [01:12:25] yet, I’d say it’s the most valuable bit of my work as well. And [01:12:30] often that can be the the thing, you know. Sometimes the best things about [01:12:35] something are the bits you can’t really measure.

Kathryn Bell: I agree. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of times, you know, [01:12:40] you’ll see in corporates and you know, I’ve got my my CEO is also used [01:12:45] to be the CFO. Right. Yeah. So when, when, when you, when you have, uh, financial people running [01:12:50] the show, they want measurable KPIs.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And often the [01:12:55] magic is in the immeasurable. Yeah. You know, and you might find that you find, you [01:13:00] find meaning in, in that work. Yeah. Because you’ve been through it yourself, I think.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. I [01:13:05] mean, I mean, my life experience is, is quite unique. Yeah. Um, [01:13:10] and as I’ve said, kind of touched on before, um, the [01:13:15] psychology a level that I did is is still to this day the most valuable one. [01:13:20] Um, and I remember actually at the time, um, my [01:13:25] psychology A-level teacher saying to me, uh, would I consider going [01:13:30] into medicine and psychiatry? And I was like, I don’t think it’s for me. Um, and [01:13:35] I still, you know, I still don’t necessarily think that’s right, but certainly some sort of mentorship [01:13:40] or coaching. I could certainly, you know, I, I’m quite [01:13:45] a people person. I like talking.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a cousin who’s a psychiatrist in the US, great life. [01:13:50]

Kathryn Bell: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Great life, fantastic life. Most of her work is on Zoom. [01:13:55]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. As it would be now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s wonderful. She can go to Italy on holiday and [01:14:00] still earn loads of money like.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. But I, [01:14:05] I do, I like, I mean, the same reason a lot of dentists get into dentistry is [01:14:10] because they want to help people, anybody getting into sort of healthcare and maybe I’m at that stage where actually [01:14:15] I want to help other clinicians, not just patients.

Payman Langroudi: Give back a little.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, [01:14:20] definitely. Yeah. And I think that’s part of the reason that I I’m embracing the [01:14:25] col role as well is that side of things.

Payman Langroudi: A couple of quick fire [01:14:30] questions I’m interested in. What’s the best lecture you’ve been to or maybe [01:14:35] the best lecturer or the best course.

Kathryn Bell: Do you know. Um I’m actually going to [01:14:40] take you back way, way, way, way back to when I was a student. And [01:14:45] um Professor Callum Youngson was actually our [01:14:50] restorative. He was a restorative consultant. He was our restorative tutor. And [01:14:55] I can’t remember what the lecture was actually meant to be about, [01:15:00] but um, and again, it stuck with me my [01:15:05] entire life. And you’ll understand why when I, when I explain, I remember he [01:15:10] asked, there was 53 of us in the lecture hall and he said, okay, as [01:15:15] a dentist, who is the most important person? Obviously Hans went up [01:15:20] and patient the patients, the most important person. He’s like, no, you’re wrong. And they’re like the nurse. [01:15:25] The nurse is the most important. No, no, you’re wrong. The most important person is you. [01:15:30] And you have to look after yourself so you can look after your patients. [01:15:35] It’s that old oxygen mask theory. You know, you’ve [01:15:40] got to put your oxygen mask on before you can help other people. And then he said, [01:15:45] okay, so in the hierarchy of your life, who comes next? And again, patient [01:15:50] comes next. Patient. No, no, it’s not the patient. Your family comes next because to your [01:15:55] patients, you can be replaced by another dentist, but you’re irreplaceable [01:16:00] to your family. So and I think that is that I mean, it’s, [01:16:05] you know, it wasn’t the whole lecture, but it was a big part of the lecture. And that has [01:16:10] really stuck with me. And, and I think that’s something that it is very easy [01:16:15] for us to forget when we’re in the day to day running of our [01:16:20] lives as a dentist. But it’s prioritising. [01:16:25] I mean, you have to. And then, you know, after that it’s probably the patient and work, but you [01:16:30] can’t you can’t do your job without your health and your family cannot do [01:16:35] without you.

Payman Langroudi: So this, this came up from one of my, my school friends. He’s a big time [01:16:40] surgeon at the Marsden cancer surgeon. Yeah. And he’s busy, as you can imagine. [01:16:45] Yeah, yeah. You know, there’s people he does operations that hardly anyone else in the country can do. [01:16:50] Yeah. Then his wife got breast cancer. Yeah. And this guy can never take time off. [01:16:55] Yeah. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: And but because of the waiting lists and absolutely everything. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:17:00] for the first time, he took three weeks off. Mhm. And you know what you’re saying there is, right? Yeah. [01:17:05] At the end of the day, the priorities have to be there.

Kathryn Bell: Absolutely, Absolutely. [01:17:10] Because, I mean, hats off to him. Amazing. He’s probably not replaceable in [01:17:15] that sense of the word. But to your family, there’s there’s nobody else there is, [01:17:20] you know.

Payman Langroudi: So that lecture was in university was it.

Kathryn Bell: Was at university. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about the best [01:17:25] facial aesthetics training you’ve had.

Kathryn Bell: Okay. So that so I did my foundation [01:17:30] training. Um, when I was, I was working in Bristol and I did foundation [01:17:35] toxins, foundation fillers and I didn’t again, I didn’t really [01:17:40] use it. I kind of dabbled a little bit here and there, but it was only [01:17:45] when, um, Tim Eldridge, who just [01:17:50] is such a lovely guy and he runs a practice in Cheltenham and he’s got a training academy as well. [01:17:55] It’s called Myface. And he did um a training [01:18:00] course with one of the fillers companies and it was facial aesthetics for dentists, [01:18:05] but it was just like he’s again, he’s just one of those really calm people. [01:18:10] He kind of took the fear out of it and made it really tangible. [01:18:15] And it was more about and this was the bit that was really important. It was about looking at [01:18:20] the whole face rather than looking isolated features, which is what foundation [01:18:25] training often does is it’s looking at individual features rather than actually looking at how everything [01:18:30] fits together. And it was then from there that I did quite a lot of training with him, [01:18:35] um, because he just made it so approachable and real. [01:18:40] And um, so I hats off to him. I’ve, you know, he’s probably the [01:18:45] main reason why I kind of went into the facial aesthetics field. Yeah. A lovely guy, [01:18:50] really nice guy.

Payman Langroudi: What about if I asked resource like what’s your how do you keep up?

Kathryn Bell: Oh, so [01:18:55] a number of different ways. But my favourite resource is something we talked about earlier and that’s the Protrusive podcast. [01:19:00] Yeah, I mean, I love that. I mean, jazz is just so wonderful. Oh he [01:19:05] is isn’t he? He’s great. Yeah. Such just such a genuine giving. [01:19:10] Um, and again, has that ability to bring people into his world. [01:19:15] Um, and yeah, absolutely. I wouldn’t be without the producer. In fact, I was listening to it on the way here. [01:19:20] So that’s what I often do when I’m driving or I’m going anywhere as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I keep up with clinical [01:19:25] with that way as well because I stopped practising a long time ago.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:19:30] been a lovely conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you. We’re gonna we’re gonna end with the usual questions that we ask everyone. [01:19:35] It’s a fantasy dinner party.

Kathryn Bell: Ah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So three guests, dead [01:19:40] or alive?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah. So first off, I’m going to go for a really sentimental [01:19:45] one. And I would invite my mum. My mum died when my daughter was four months old. [01:19:50] So. And obviously, as I’ve already talked about, she’s a massive rock to me during [01:19:55] some of the hardest parts of my life. So I would give anything to have just a few more hours [01:20:00] with her. And then alongside my mum, I would have Tina Turner.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry [01:20:05] she had you when she was a teenager?

Kathryn Bell: Uh, no, she had my brother. Yeah, yeah, but then [01:20:10] my mom had breast cancer when I was 14.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah. Um, so that was [01:20:15] that was, you know, as a teenager when you’re going, I mean, I was being bullied at school at [01:20:20] the time as well. So that was yeah, that was really rough. Um, but yeah, so she had breast cancer when I [01:20:25] was 14. And then when I was 17, I had a brain tumour. So we had a bit of a rough time for [01:20:30] a few years and laughing about it now. But yeah, not, not.

Payman Langroudi: And your dad was around all the [01:20:35] time.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My dad was around all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Tina Turner.

Kathryn Bell: Tina Turner because I [01:20:40] think.

Payman Langroudi: I watched the musical. Did you watch that?

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Kathryn Bell: What a life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Um, [01:20:45] and talk about rising from the ashes to build a career in her 40s. I mean, the stories [01:20:50] she’s got to tell. I would love to just chat to her, I think, and find out a bit more [01:20:55] about that. Um, so and then for a little bit of light relief, let’s go [01:21:00] for Bob Mortimer completely out there. Have you watched um, what’s it called? Last one laughing [01:21:05] on Amazon Prime. No.

Payman Langroudi: Is it good?

Kathryn Bell: If you if you if you’re having [01:21:10] a bit of a rubbish day and you just need to really laugh your socks off.

Payman Langroudi: I like him, [01:21:15] I do like him.

Kathryn Bell: Honestly. Last one.

Payman Langroudi: Laughing.

Kathryn Bell: It’s um, the premise is that there’s, [01:21:20] I think there’s 12 comedians locked in a room for six hours [01:21:25] and they’re not allowed to laugh, but they’ve got to try and make everybody else laugh. Brilliant. It’s [01:21:30] hilarious. So it’s broken down into, I think six episodes. Each one’s [01:21:35] like an hour. So it’s basically those six hours that they’re in there. It’s honestly [01:21:40] one of the funniest things I’ve watched in a long time. So yeah, if you’re ever having a down day and you [01:21:45] just need something to make you laugh, stick an episode of that on, I highly recommend. So yeah, I think I’d have Bob [01:21:50] Mortimer because, you know, Tina Turner, that might get a bit heavy. Um, [01:21:55] so let’s have a little bit of light relief as well.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe one last question. What grinds your gears? What pisses you [01:22:00] off in dentistry?

Kathryn Bell: Um. Oh. What pisses me off [01:22:05] in dentistry. Um. I [01:22:10] don’t like lateness.

Payman Langroudi: For staff, you mean, or just.

Kathryn Bell: In general? I [01:22:15] just, I mean, and I hate being late myself if I’m ever late. I’m [01:22:20] so apologies if I. I mean, I think it’s partly because I am [01:22:25] on the you know, I understand the impact of it to other people, but if I’m ever late for anything, [01:22:30] I am so.

Payman Langroudi: Profuse.

Kathryn Bell: I’m mortified. And I say, [01:22:35] look, I’m so sorry. I’ll rebook. I know, I’m so sorry, but I think [01:22:40] it’s when people turn up to something late and are just they [01:22:45] don’t, you know, just make assumptions that it’s okay. It’s like, [01:22:50] but you’re you’re I mean, time is our most valuable commodity.

Payman Langroudi: Some people off more than others. Yeah. [01:22:55] I’ve got my, my partner. If a member of staff is five minutes late to work, it breaks his heart. [01:23:00]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And for me it doesn’t bother.

Kathryn Bell: But time, time, time is our [01:23:05] most valuable commodity. Out of everything that we have.

Payman Langroudi: Respect doesn’t it? It shows an element of respect. [01:23:10]

Kathryn Bell: But I think it’s I mean, if like, again, if somebody turns up late and they’re super apologetic, [01:23:15] that’s completely different. But if somebody turns up late and they’re just like, yeah, nonchalant.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: Then then [01:23:20] it kind of yeah, that that annoys me.

Payman Langroudi: That’s interesting. I like that. I’ve never heard that one before. I [01:23:25] thought you were gonna say, oh, dentists, who do you know do too much Instagram or something? [01:23:30]

Kathryn Bell: No, not at all. You do. You boo. Um, but yeah, I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: What do [01:23:35] you think of awards?

Kathryn Bell: Um. Oh, I know this has been something you’ve been talking about again. [01:23:40] You know, it’s each to their own. It’s not something I’ve ever really gotten into. And again, for a lot of the reasons [01:23:45] that I think you’ve spoken about in that it is all about [01:23:50] pushing yourself forward. And you can have the best dentist in the world just in a [01:23:55] little back room somewhere up in Bradford, just doing their own thing and doing amazing work. [01:24:00] And nobody’s shouting about it because they’re so busy that they don’t have time [01:24:05] to submit an application.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m not cool with is the fact that a lot [01:24:10] of them have nothing to do with clinical work at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you could be, you could be crowned [01:24:15] best young dentist North, whatever. And no one’s even asked a question about clinical. [01:24:20] Yeah. Whereas from the patient’s perspective, when I see best young dentists, I’m going [01:24:25] to think, well, this guy knows his clinical. Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: But it could be their charity work.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Kathryn Bell: It could be. Yeah. [01:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: Although, you know, I’m smart enough to know if I if I see best curry London, it’s not [01:24:35] necessarily the best curry in London. But it just that that grinds my gears.

Kathryn Bell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kathryn Bell: No I [01:24:40] get that. I think it’s yeah. You’ve got to keep in mind, I [01:24:45] think when you’re looking at these things from an outside. How well represented. [01:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: I’m all for marketing. Yeah. I think there is enough marketing um, [01:24:55] in our area. So I’m a bit torn, you know, because it’s definitely good for marketing. [01:25:00]

Kathryn Bell: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah yeah yeah. No, absolutely. There’s it’s one of those things there’s there’s [01:25:05] positives and negatives to it isn’t there for, for lots of different reasons. [01:25:10] Um, yeah, massive marketing plus. [01:25:15] But then the reality of it, I’m not, I’m [01:25:20] not against them. I’m not against them, but I don’t know if I’d.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoy some of the parties. [01:25:25]

Kathryn Bell: Who doesn’t enjoy a party, who doesn’t enjoy a party?

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive [01:25:30] pleasure. Thank you so much for coming all this way and being so open. Thanks a lot.

Kathryn Bell: Oh thank you, I’ve enjoyed it.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:25:35] for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. [01:25:40] Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. [01:25:45] And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating. [01:25:50]

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:25:55] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.