In this episode, we welcome insight into the world of business in dentistry from Sameer Patel. Sameer is the Clinical Director of renowned Elleven Dental Wellness Clinic in London and shares his views on company ethos and being successful in the business of dentistry.

Sameer also tells us about his love of cricket, how to chose the right associates and runs us through how he approaches managing patient experience.



Stick to your protocol, stick to the system, stick to what you do and try not to go out of that too much, because actually, that’s when you produce the best clinical dentistry.”  – Sameer Patel


In This Episode


01.14 – Dentistry vs cricket

08.40 – Parenting

12.00 – Race

20.50 – Australia

17:55 – The business of dentistry

26:32 – Running a practice

32:37 – The patient experience

39:09 – True north

41:20 – Book recommendations

46:43 – Treating everybody

50:41 – Sticking to protocols

52:44 – Dental Entrepreneurial Programme

1:00:32 – Daily life

1:04:16 – Choosing associates

1:06:59 – Company culture

1:08:26 – Legacy & last days on Earth


About Sameer Patel


After qualifying from the University of Birmingham, Sameer was awarded the Centenary Prize and was nominated for the Clinical Excellence Award. Whilst working in practice, he continued his postgraduate education at Oxford University before moving to Guy’s Hospital, London. Sameer was awarded, by examination, Membership of the Faculty of Dental Surgery at the Royal College of Surgeons in London.

He worked in Sydney, Australia, both in practice and in hospital, before returning to the UK to become a partner at Blandy House Dental Practice. He’s completed training in Implantology at the Eastman Hospital and is a member of the International Team for Implantology.

Sameer enjoys comprehensive dentistry for all ages and is a certified Invisalign practitioner, providing invisible orthodontics for teenagers and adults. He enables a more conservative smile makeover.

Sameer was the recent Chairman of the Reading Section of the British Dental Association and is the current official dentist for the PCA, Professional Cricketers Association.

[00:00:00] Stick to your protocol, stick to the way you do stuff, and again, all of these are just learning lessons. You know, when you’re in it, you feel, oh, God, what a helmet, why do I do that? But then you realise actually stick to your protocol, stick to the system, stick to what you do and try not to go out of that too much, because actually that’s when you produce the best clinical dentistry.

[00:00:26] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders and dentistry. Your heist’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:00:43] It’s my great pleasure to welcome Sameer Patel onto the podcast. Samir is now principal of one of the highest profile prices in the country, 11 Dental with his wife, Sheibani. But to me, it’s great to have you. This podcast is about trying to get to the person behind the persona, and we tend to sort of start with the same question and the same question. But the first question generally is how did you grow up? What kind of kid were you? How did you get Stenstrom?

[00:01:14] Yesterday, she was not even on the horizon, I’m from a family of doctors and some dentists in there, and it just grew up with a passion for cricket. And everything I did was about being out there, being playing sport. And that’s all I wanted to do. And so that’s what I did. I just remember growing up playing cricket almost every single day and fortunately I was OK at it. So I then got into the county teams and had some great coaches and mentors that then took it to a level where it became quite serious. But growing up, everything was driven just all about cricket. And I remember I was I went to private school as a young boy and then went to Selective Grammar School. And I was struggling academically in this year of one hundred. And I was like between nineteen ninety five. And we had our headmaster meetings and he said and I said, he said, if you’ve got anything to say, I said, I think I’m struggling. And he said, but no one else plays for the first team in cricket, hockey and rugby and captains them. And so I think you’re doing OK. Keep going. And for me, for the first time growing up, that was the first affirmation that I had had because I’d grown up in a household where, you know, Dad would work, mum would be at home.

[00:02:32] And often, you know, I think Indian or all across the board, but we’re just not given many compliments. And I remember also winning a game. I was forty five out. We’d be in this really tough school and again dropped into the car is like, why did you get up? You could have. I mean, I was like, so I grew up with very few affirmations and my sister was really bright and she was academically driven. And so I just think that I was a really happy child, don’t get me wrong. But what I look back there was never that much well done. Well done. There was a lot of love and there was a lot of love because we had a huge family and that was amazing. But I grew up in a very happy household and I was told that it was okay to play cricket and do some stuff. I suppose as I got older, there was a little bit more pressure from parents to do some studying is I think a lot of Indian parents do. But it wasn’t until the age of 15, I think I had a self realisation and I walked into a pharmacy again, Dad had picked me up from school and we were driving back home and he had to go pick up some medicine from from the chemist.

[00:03:38] And the pharmacist sat me down and he was OK as a bloke. So we used to see him a lot because I used to go and pick up the medicines with Dad and he just said, where are you going to end up? And I said, I just want to play cricket. And he said, What happens if that doesn’t happen? And for that, I mean, I don’t know where it came from, but I just knew at some stage I wanted to be successful not in cricket, but have to be able to do stuff that I want to do. And I knew that I had to study. And thankfully, I was in a school that was so academically driven that actually just to turn that on. And when I turned my mindset, I just naturally had affinity to maths, chemistry, biology, and I was being successful. And then again, it felt good to be successful and like anything. And the thing I learnt with my children is they will do what they enjoy. So let them enjoy stuff and let them be good at it and they will then be successful. So I then did my GCSE and did my A-levels. And as I was doing my A-levels, it was then what am I going to do still? And I still want to just play cricket because at this stage I was now playing for Berkshire.

[00:04:40] I was playing the first team at Redding and I still knew I had to do a degree and must do a degree. You got to just go play cricket. So then I was playing, I was playing cricket and biology was the quickest way I could get in and out of university quickly. And then I started doing some. They set us up for work experience and solicitors and dentistry. And actually dentistry was OK. It was it was a complete there was a game for every single patient. You have to win the game every time. It was great feeling, great import, whatever. And just in the side where I did my work experience in early and reading what a great bloke just set me on as a mentor to say you will be great at this, you are great with people. You love all your handi stuff. This is all we do. This is what you should do. And that gave me the impetus to change my whole UCAS form at the age of 17 from biology through to dentistry. And I would say that would be my childhood. In a nutshell.

[00:05:40] It was Jackson who convinced you that dentistry was the right career. You were going into Solicitors’ wherever, doing a bit of work experience here and there. And what was it during that work experience that made you think this is really what I want to do? Was it was it that parallel to the games in cricket that, you know, you’re winning at this, you winning at that? Or what was it about that work experience that made you think what this is what I’m going to focus my UCAS problem?

[00:06:05] You know, probably it was very much the people you were with people the whole time, and it didn’t feel like an office and it felt like it was practical. And, you know, dentists have this sort of feeling when you’re looking at them. They’re always on holiday. They drove nice cars and and it all just seemed about right. But the fact that I was with people and this list of three holidays a year minimum and I was like, oh, that sounds OK as a profession to go into. And in those days you needed BBC or BBC. I definitely won’t get into dentistry now, but I mean, thank goodness, you know, we could get in and then start our undergraduate.

[00:06:47] And so what school were you what sort of student? Where were you? Swati Smart kid. Top of the class somewhere in the middle.

[00:06:54] No, I definitely started. I was OK in primary school and we were all doing our stuff. And then as soon as I hit, I would say a medium to large pond. I became a very small fish and I knew I was a small fish and that was OK because in the sports world I was OK and everything sort of balanced. And I sort of felt I was I was appreciated and I had my place and sport kept me afloat, I would say at that time, because, you know, to be in that sort of percentile the whole time through your school thinking not that clever, not that clever. And then when the headmaster says, you know, what is the point, one percent in the country that go to these type of schools and you just so happen to be in the 90 percent, it’s OK. So I don’t think I was. I just think I had potential, but I just wasn’t interested in exploring that. But then when I did and I found some sort of form and some sort of rhythm in terms of studying, and then you got rewarded for it, it felt pretty good. And therefore, I would say I’m very much driven on target driven and rewards. And I would say that that hasn’t changed to some degree. I love applying for these awards that are there in dentistry and things have now sort to calm down a little bit because Shivani is now a judge within the private industry awards. That’s my life. So I just feel like, you know, achieving something. And now it’s now in the business world. It’s just that I would say I’m a achiever and I like setting myself my own goals. I definitely wasn’t a swoll. I didn’t spend much time studying, but I did enjoy learning at that stage when I then found out it was interesting. And you honed in to maths, chemistry, biology, A-levels, and I say that’s when it changed. I enjoyed learning

[00:08:40] Something. You said, you know, you were talking about Asian parents not giving compliments. And I can relate to that obviously was a different time back then, but you turned out really well from it. So then with your own kids, did you feel the need to be the same or did you feel the pain of that and want to address that? Because I remembered the first time my dad telling me he was proud of me was when I fitted eight veneers on him twenty twenty seven years old or something. But because he’d never said it before, I really felt it. But then as a reaction to that, now I tell my kids I’m proud of them all the time. And my feeling is maybe, maybe I’m overstating it and. Well, how do you handle your kids?

[00:09:28] Yes. And so, look, I have three kids, 11 year old, and my twins are five. And I think the biggest thing I try and do is provide a home with a lot of love because I think life is hard. And that’s the bit I figured out. Life is hard. And actually to come back to a loving environment is so important. And so that just allows your child to then be who they want to be. But when it comes to disciplining, definitely I have discipline and I think that’s part of growing up and understanding rules and pushing boundaries. And I am very much I’m proud of you, but I sometimes do feel a bit like you, I would say, because I knew now I would have perhaps had not got to where I am today if I hadn’t wanted my parents adoration. And so I think there is a fine balance between giving them love and telling them I’m proud of them. And I don’t think I’ve found that, by the way, because I’m a big softy with my three girls. And but I just think there is that line and there’s that line of making them feel their loved, but actually understanding this discipline and wanting them to be the best they can be. And I think that’s what our parents wanted. You know, there was no mollycoddling. We just had to get on with it. We never saw our parents. They never helped us with our homework we just sat at, whereas now it’s so different. We’re so involved in our children’s lives. And is that a good thing or a bad thing? Again, I don’t know. I don’t know

[00:10:58] If it’s it’s funny. When you when you were speaking about your dad, it just reminded me of mine, the accident, everything made Be Gone book. But the interesting thing is, you know, I’ve come home and say I’ve got ninety seven percent in a maths test. And he said, what happened to the three.

[00:11:14] Yeah, I mean, we’ll all about first.

[00:11:21] So I do really resonate there. And I do think that that for me growing up I had a point to prove right. And it was well how do I get that extra three percent, how do I make my dad proud, etc., etc.. And there wasn’t a great deal of confidence back then. But I do think to me it was a driving force. But in answer to your Payman question question, I’m the total opposite. So loads of loads of hugs, loads of well done, proud of you. Compliments, blah, blah, blah. But you do you do kind of sit back and sometimes think, are you overdoing it? Is everything an achievement? You know, it’s hard to know what the right thing to do is, right?

[00:12:00] Yeah. Prav I just come one other thing. I mean, I was one of three Asian people in my school. You know, I’m born and brought up in Redding and the other two were brothers of half growing. So they were really English actually. So, you know, there were very few ethnic people in my school and then there was somebody that they enjoyed. And actually I look back on it and I think, well, that was quite tough. But I think sport cut through everything. And I never had an issue with any of that. And I then look, here are the stories. But I think it’s harder for me to know that actually I’m comfortable in my own skin and I felt I had to. Through just because I had to prove and I think there’s no hardship in a difficulty that you go through as a child because that hardship allows you to become the character you’re going to become. And actually, I’ll share with you, my daughter has some difficulty at school from a couple of the other girls. And I sort of dealt with in a way that what have you learn rather than I’m so sorry.

[00:13:05] I was like, I’m so sorry you went through that, obviously. But tell me what you’ve learnt and how you’re feeling and how would you do that next time. And I didn’t make it a big issue. And my parents definitely didn’t make race a big issue for me growing up. And it was never a big thing. And I would say, as I tell you a little bit more about me into cricket and then becoming a member of the AMCC and then a committee member, I would say all of that background of any all of that is to do with the fact that race was never a thing and I never saw me as a colour. And I think that more that we can make our children feel multicultural from whatever background you’re from. I think that would be a great thing. And I think there’s too much emphasis put on race and the differences that have been achieved. That’s not looking at a thing going forward, which actually then makes the child feel like he’s got to act like something or somebody some.

[00:14:00] You may be lucky in that where you were in reading, there were so few Asians that you were a curiosity. You know, if there were loads of Asians taking the jobs of people, you might have felt it more. Maybe, but but let’s move on from from race, because we talk about that too much, like you just said. Tell me this to me. You sound like a proper competitive person. And, you know, competitiveness has its massive advantages because you set goals. You get that dopamine rush when you win and all that. But I want to hear about the downside of being a competitive person. I mean, do you end up sometimes comparing yourself with others too much or or being really down when you don’t win, when you get in cricket or whatever?

[00:14:46] Yeah, look, I do self isolate if I wasn’t to win, but that’s more just retrospection of what I could have done better. And again, that works on a day to day basis in dentistry. You know, you can have a great day, but you know that you could have done that implant a bit better or finish those veneers a bit better. And so, again, the photography, such an amazing thing, because that’s my teacher on a day to day basis, when I’m doing my dentistry, the patient will walk out saying, well, thanks so much. But actually my will to want to get better is inbuilt advantage.

[00:15:25] Again, I’m sure that was a disadvantage.

[00:15:27] Yeah, but I don’t see us disadvantage at all because actually if I’m competitive, I’m just trying to self improve myself the whole time. And I’m not one to compare from a very young age. My dad being the doctor, he was set one thing straight, really early. Don’t compare yourself to anybody. It just make you unhappy. And actually that’s where my line is actually. For me, it’s just it’s about me and it’s about me and my family. And so obviously we all were different hats at different times. Once as a dentist. One’s a husband, one’s a father, one’s is a friend. And all of these things, it’s I’m wishing well. And so when you wish well for people, I believe that people wish well for me. And that’s karma. So I actually, you know, you asked me, is there anything downside about this? Well, I’ve been trained that there isn’t a downside to being competitive. It just means I know myself and I just would self isolate for a period, make sure I understand. Maybe it might be the drive back home, maybe cricket. I’d probably go in my room for a little bit. I was never a tantrum person. And those that, you know, I don’t shout don’t get angry like I’m not an ant, that is. So there’s no angst in me and I’m wishing well. And so there’ll be times that you actually say, God, that team played really well. And I would then draw on how that team played so well to improve myself.

[00:16:46] So an advantage.

[00:16:49] I hope that I’m not a question, but I don’t see is that.

[00:16:53] Yeah. So tell us about then why did you come work for Jackson as well, or does that just work experience.

[00:17:01] No, like he stayed in my mentor. Even today we speak and we meet and and we. What a great guy. Yeah, exactly. And he I would say he’s firmly one of my mentors that seeing me to my point now in my journey hasn’t finished. But I think that everybody needs mentors in every shape or form through through their life. And I love the fact that clubhouse has been able to access everybody. Now, you can access all these people, you know, these podcasts. You can access people and understand them better. When we were growing up, there was none of this and everybody was seen as an isolated entity. And I think the community. Dentistry and the difficulties we face in isolation in our surgeries, as well as the mental stresses that we take. I would definitely say all of this is positive. If you could keep the barrier of comparison to yourself, to others is a wonderful place because we get isolated. And the fact that you’ve had so many great people on your series so far. And thank you so much, by the way, guys, for having me. That’s really amazing. But I feel honoured to be on here because the people you’ve had on before. But all of this leads to it’s it’s individual, your journeys individual. But I still believe that you’ve got to find your own true north. So tell us about your first practise.

[00:18:24] I’ll tell you quickly, my dad was quite funny. So I went straight from there into VTE from university and VTE was brilliant. I had a mentor again called Pip Gary while in the high street of Slough. I would see everybody in anything and everything was OK if I got it wrong, it was OK. It was all about numbers, except he never came in to teach me dentistry. It never came in. We would have a meeting once a week and it would be on the business of dentistry. He loved the business of dentistry and I’d have to go to the associates to find out how I did that. Could I improve on that? What material using for that. And again, we’ve talk about mentors and people have influenced you. Massive influence on me. He made me understand from an outset the business of dentistry is a business as well as the dentistry. And so therefore, you’ve got in my life two great dentists or business people giving me advice. And therefore my shortfall was very much. Now the clinical side of it. And I felt at the end of that year I wanted to learn more about dentistry and I went to become a house officer, guys. And that’s an interesting story in itself, because they hadn’t had any non graduates. And I’m a Birmingham graduate, be a House officer in the hundred twenty years or whatever at guys.

[00:19:42] And because of this Europe and now they’re becoming kings, they had to invite other people from outside. So they said, OK, the first 12 generally get selected in the year guys to be house offices. So the first 10 did. And they offered to sell and they didn’t even apply for it. Just somebody on my VTE just said, listen, you might want to apply. I know this is going on. It won’t go to the market. And I applied and Nigel Fisher, who was selecting who got it, who got out, I went to see him speak and I said I sent my application and there’s my name, Samir Patel. And he said, Yeah, you’re the cricketer. And I said, Yeah, I’d love to come and be on that team. And then that was the end of that. And I met Shivani, that guy. She was in my group of house officers. And so we had such a phenomenal group that year. We were out a lot and we had a lot of fun. And then dentistry from there was I was still playing a lot of cricket. I was playing England amateurs. I was playing Minor County Cricket Worcester for a little bit with when I was at university and I wanted to go and do a season in Australia playing cricket. And Fraser McDonald, who’s a guy’s in charge of orthodontics, sounded a bit like that.

[00:20:50] Don’t be silly. You can’t go and just give up that issue and go and play cricket because you’ll get crap on your CV. So the next day turned up with a fax, with a job interview and and so what a great bloke. He sort of piece it altogether, new someone out there and had this job for me. So I rang this dinner at 12:00 midnight, say, look, Frasers said I should ring you. I’m coming out to play cricket. I’d love to come and work. She said, just come out and we’ll give you a job. I said, Don’t you have to sponsor me on that? I just come out and give you a job. So did my MSDS at the end of that House of the year and I flew to Australia and I went the next day to go and see Donna. I should I got a job for you. Like, okay, so what do you recommend we do? She goes, Well, I’ve got somebody finishing two and a half weeks. Maybe I could offer you that post, but you’ve got lots to do with registration. And anyway, it all worked out really well. I worked at United Dental Hospital for six months, played cricket for University of New South Wales. And again, we won the great championships out there.

[00:21:58] So we had a phenomenal group of players. And I came back and by that time I met Shivani and we’d got married and I landed a job with Oasis in Twyford, which is again near where I live, near Redding. And again, there was a lot of emphasis on understanding the business. So again, I was just trying to find my form and I did Krystle’s course. I did the stuff of implants. Eastman again, I was thriving knowledge because I feel I was being given business of dentistry, knowledge and understanding how that was. But I was still thriving of now having to understand dentistry. And the one thing I would say that we talk about children earlier, the one thing I’ve learnt from that journey to that point was don’t put your kid out. I was so not burnt out the age of twenty three that I was so thirsty to educate myself at that stage on what I wanted to educate myself on. And I would say that would be a big thing that I’ve learnt from my experiences and I’m passing on to my children, that let’s have a lot of fun. Let’s find out what it is that you’re good at. And as a dad, my job is to get the best out of you and for you to enjoy your life. So, yeah, that’s that’s my point to the oasis.

[00:23:19] It seems to me that your your education is almost like back to from when it comes to practise owners. So a lot of practise owners dive into a practise or a squat. They don’t know what they’re getting themselves into. And by default, they have to learn the business of dentistry. It’s, you know, live or die. Whereas for you it seems like your first job, it was all about the business of dentistry. And the clinical thing was a side thing that you have to find, seek help from other people. And then once again, to Oasis. Do you think that’s the secret to how you’ve been so successful in business with your practise? And also moving on to you’re going to tell us a little bit later on about your business courses. Do you think do you think that has been the key? And do you think dentistry should include a bit of business as part of the curriculum?

[00:24:10] Yeah, I mean, the course is really an understanding of that. We’re not taught it. And I think in dentistry, it’s very much your training, your time for money. And so when we move forward, if there’s anything I could teach younger dentists is invest early and if you invest early, the compound effect of your investing early will mean that you can make the decision whether you work or not when you’re older. And understanding that, as well as the right investments, obviously, I think takes a lot of pressure. And I speak to a few dentists about ethical fighting and making sure we stay on the right side of dentistry and doing it properly. Payman knows me very well in the way that I work in my practise as one of the most clinical awards for any practise. For me, that is the most important 11. So, you know, we have Richard Fields, Shiraz Rollcast, Shibani Patel and Antilla, all these superb clinicians, and it’s all about the quality of dentistry. And therefore, if you’re doing quality dentistry, you will be looked after and it will look after itself. But if you can augment here with investment and the understanding of financial intelligence, I believe that you can make clearer decisions on your life, on how you treat the patient and having them at the primary interest of what you’re doing. And it all comes together and your energy will flow a bit better and your karma will be a bit more relaxed as well, because I think it’s a very stressful environment otherwise piecing it all together.

[00:25:50] So what you’ve what you’ve just said there really makes sense in terms of everything that you’ve put together. But you came from this cricket playing dentist who’s worked in a few practises, has been given a bit business knowledge. What was the actual journey to get from an associate oasis to having this multi award winning practise with super talented clinicians? If you just put that out there and you think about another dentist out there listening to this is such a lofty goal, how do you how do you recruit these super talented people? What is it that you attract them with? And then how do you get to that point? What was your journey from the point that you were an associate to where you are now?

[00:26:32] So from Twyford, again, I believe networking is so important and thankfully I enjoy networking. I said to you earlier, you know, the people side of things I really enjoy. And I went to the PTA local committees and would listen to the lectures in the evenings and ended up being the chairman and the chairman for the GDP. A guy called Steve reduced our practise in Henley and he approached me and he said, look, you’ve got a good reputation. I’m looking for somebody to take over my practise and the partnership. And so I went to see him. And it’s this wonderful Georgian building in the middle of Hanalei High Street. It’s a beautiful building, great you listed. And I was just blown away by it. And then I walked in and it was just, do I belong here? This is so nice. And my two partners were 10 and 12 years older than me respectively. And I thought, well, this is going to be a great training ground for me to to work and and now go to the next step. And I was so excited to own a practise. And I remember Shivani, who always so supportive. It’s like, how are we going to pay for that monthly expenditure that we have to put in the fall? And I said, you know, I think you’ll be OK and you have to take that leap of faith. And then I joined it.

[00:27:47] But interestingly, when I joined it, it was actually very difficult because the vision of my partners was not my vision. And so finding true North had not been found at this stage. It was a tough and quite a few years where I was in this place. The vision of where bit, how they were working, where I was working, the way I wanted to work, the way I want the practise looked like I was I was a little bit claustrophobic. And at that stage, I had now given up playing county cricket and I was just playing club cricket for Ealing, which was great, but I was training quite hard still. And then Anthony, who’s my partner up in London, and he’s an orthodontist. I really respect the way that you talk and the way you work and the way you’re doing stuff. And I’m an orthodontist. Would you I’ve got this. Would you like to do something together? I said I loved doing something to the because I don’t feel I’ve really found what it is that I want to find here. And it was I hadn’t found my true north. And at that stage I didn’t know what it was. And he had found an orthodontic practise in the West End. And when we did all our due diligence, it was very clear that 90 percent was coming from the Internet and 10 percent was referral.

[00:28:57] And so I said, come on, let’s give it a go. So we remortgaged our houses, we put all our savings and we put it into eleven. And we were both had our own practises and we started. So Shravani nice and Anstee started that two days a week and so. Well that’s grown now. Then it was then I brought the then this building blocks, this is all building blocks. So then it was about general dentistry in and then we brought another orthodontist. Since they were busy I brought Peter in who’s my first associate. I brought in there’s a general dentist and now were eighteen of us. But that’s grown just three blocks of getting busier. And if I can share with you how we started at again, it started Prav. As you said, it didn’t start with clinical dentistry. It started with Accenture coming in to come and tell us how a business should run before we started it, so we had capabilities and the orthodontics was divide, it was they were given three options. You can have a match at that stage with metal, metal, metal, ceramic, ceramic, ceramic. And that was their option. And he said, Starbucks, do it. You give them three options. They’ll pick the middle one 80 percent, pick the middle one. So now what you want is 80 percent. Pick that middle one. So we were like, OK, that’s what we’re going to do.

[00:30:10] And then we built in what our overheads were and then we built in how many patients we want to see how we were going to market, how we had to increase our marketing to get those numbers in. And then we achieved the target. And, you know, a lot of it is knowing your numbers as a leader. And from the beginning, I knew my numbers and so happy to say we’ve grown that business 600 percent since we’ve owned it. But it was from understanding that my staff this is my numbers, this is what we’re doing. And then having a plan and having a name. And every year we would have an aim of this is what we want to try and do. It doesn’t mean that we’re selling more stuff. It just means we need to open the top on marketing a little bit more now because that’s not happening. And again, talking about where that comes from, it comes from us being stable and having incomes from our other associates, our other partner jobs, basically. And so therefore, there’s never drive to make 11 a money spinning machine or it was just about having dentistry. And we tore down the whole of dentistry and made it the most remarkable customer experience that we we thought was possible. And we did that with Accenture. To start with

[00:31:22] A couple of questions. When you say CPI’s OK, we’ve got, I don’t know, top line. Bottom line. Did you focus on one of those two? Firstly, no. Well, which one of those two?

[00:31:34] We basically had KPIs. Just understand what our aim was as a

[00:31:38] Company backing key KPIs that you were looking at a

[00:31:41] Large number of bonders, for example, because it was all it was just orthodontics at that stage and that’s all it was. And then we got the lease for upstairs. So at the same time of our profits were trying to refurbish upstairs. And you’ve been upstairs to my room and that space there. And again, it’s it’s an environment where it’s conducive to people wanting to have dentistry and opening their mind of seeing what is possible. So CPI’s a number of bonds, number of new patients seen. And it was very simple. No leads, number of new patients booked in. A number of people went ahead with treatment. That was the journey at that stage.

[00:32:19] And what about what about that sort of, you know, looking at your place and the way you’re discussing it, you’re trying to create sort of raving fans out of your patients instead of just patients. So what are the things you do to to make that happen with a few tips you can give us?

[00:32:37] Yeah, I’d love to share that with you. The first is all receptionists are trained. If somebody asks for money, just ask them about where are they travelling from and if they’ve got if they need a crown and they’ve got a broken tooth. I’m so sorry about that. Are you in any pain at the moment? It’s the whole deflection is not money, because I don’t want to trade money. I want to trade a feeling. So the journey will start from the beginning of somebody feeling well, they’re a bit different. They might make three calls and they’ll say four hundred pounds. Six hundred pounds. And I’m so sorry that you’ve got this problem. Can we get you in today or tomorrow? Is it sharp? How do you know which I mean regarding the Crown I can’t tell because we’ve got a variety of crowns. But let Sameer make the decision which is best for you because that’s, that’s his job. And that would be my job. Your job.

[00:33:31] So the interesting thing is a simple thing, you’re absolutely right. I’ve got a broken tooth that I’m so sorry from the from the receptionist is actually the first thing I’d like to hear is

[00:33:45] How can I help this, my name. And so and then at the end, when you were 11, if any of you want to call calling. I would want your feedback. They should say, is there anything more I can do for you at the end of the call, even with me when I ring? Is there anything more I can do to me? So therefore, you’ve got a concierge at the end of the line for you. So therefore, now, really, money is not the number, it’s oh my God, I’ve got somebody looking after me. And then it’s about when they turn up and the feel of the place and the balance of what the website looks like and the aura and the colour of your surgeries and your waiting room. And the trust starts from there of like you’ve walked from your website into the waiting room and they’re feeling this is OK. This is exactly what I thought it would be. And trust starts there. And then they come and see you and you just want to know about them. And we use photographs, we discuss what their concerns are. But when we do it, I always say that if Henry and Henry Ford did market research, they wanted faster horses and he built a car. So when you come and see somebody who feels they can look after you and who’s done all these years of training, it shouldn’t be the passion that drives the treatment plan. It should be the dentist to educate the patient. And this is what it is. And at that stage, we then click how we make the plan and then taken away by a treatment coordinator. And I don’t really talk about money at that stage because my job’s health care driven and therefore often we didn’t have the treatment coordinator and sometimes we still don’t.

[00:35:22] But I think that’s a really important side of it. If you want to convert large treatment plans and make people have comprehensive care dentistry. So a lot of what we do is at 11:00 is when people have that single to dentistry for many years and they’re now looking for somebody who can take care of them for comprehensive care, they often see us. But actually, in your own practises, I would love you guys to be saying what I’ve been doing, single tooth dentistry. A lot of it’s going on. Let me take some photos and let me show you what I think we should be doing to take care of your mouth, to make sure you have less emergencies. And that style of dentistry takes a lot of pressure off your staff yourself. Everybody has a role. One of the I mean, I have so many mantras, but one of the thing is leave your jersey in a better place. And I don’t understand why people work for somebody for 20 years. I mean, like, what are you doing? That’s funny, but I’ve had four CEO roles of eleven Dental. I don’t want the same people working for me. You know, my receptionist who’s now my practise manager. I have a dream coordinator who is my receptionist. And it’s like we want everybody to keep getting better, learn more, learn more. It’s just not me. It’s not my clinical team. It’s everybody. So when I started in the practise managers I had, they would not be my practise manager. I want today. My treatment is not the same treatment coordinates and how

[00:36:39] Much training do you do for your team? What’s the what’s the sort of you know, because these are Prav knows this better than anyone else. Right? You can you can talk to a team about phone manner once, and they might do it for a couple of months, but it needs constant training. So what would you do? What sort of training regime for these people?

[00:36:59] Yeah, I think I just trying to get them passionate about their job and passion about their job means that they will over deliver to you as your principal and macro manager. Don’t micromanage at all. I said you earlier, I’ve got very relaxed demeanour about myself. I tell them I’m there, but I’m not interested in micromanaging. And there are just a few ground rules and don’t come to me with a problem. Come up to me with a solution because I’m employing good people to have the solutions. And it might be I change those, but then you will understand what it is that we want to try and achieve after a few times. You’ve got it wrong. And I would say meeting after meeting after meeting, you know, there’s a lot of meetings and there’s an understanding of culture. That’s the thing I set within the practise. So then when somebody joins, they’re totally understanding. So at the moment, the reception was just taken on a buyer for River Island and she’s got no experience in dentistry. However, she’s a buyer for River Island, who is great at customer service and the ability to understand finance and tracking and following up and all the rest of it.

[00:38:05] So I think trying to identify really amazing people who have a growth mindset similar to you. And I’ll give you an example of my practise manager. She came as a receptionist with a bit of accountancy background, and now she’s my practise manager. So everybody will grow and you want them to grow. And Richard Branson’s thing is we want my I want my staff to grow because they are looking after my business. And, you know, I’m only there one and a half days a week in London. So they represent me the whole time. And sometimes that’s a disadvantage because I would love to get more time and more training and and more influence. But actually, I think sometimes it works as a positive because they can just get on, not have the pressure of the boss. And I think the way that one leads in is a reflection of you. If you are comfortable, you will let them be comfortable. And I think that’s the place that we want to try and make Dental take them to a lot more and put them in a place that they feel more comfortable.

[00:39:09] Now, you keep referring back to True North. Just tell us a little bit more about what that means to you and what your true north is.

[00:39:18] True north is when you you’re doing something and you just go to sleep to refresh and go again. And so that’s true north, that’s where we all need to be, that’s where everybody wants to be, where you just go, you’re doing something. So I got a nice bedtime. There we go to sleep, go to bed and then wake up next morning. And I’d have no alarm clock for four years. I’d wake up at five, 30, do my yoga meditation, write down my list of stuff I got to do, play with the kids. I’m out the door. Go again. So true north is when you find something you’re so passionate about that it’s not a work. It’s not a job. Of course, everybody has days that they don’t feel the need or it’s a job. But actually, once you find something that you’re so passionate about, actually it doesn’t become a job and therefore life becomes very easy. And all the energies within you flowing and your energy level and your and your the whole movement of you is feeling great. It’s not feeling tense. It’s not feeling stress. It’s not feeling worried. And a bit of it’s finance in today’s world. I’d love for people to understand how to invest better as an example and books they should read and all of this education. I generally have three or four books on the go the whole time. You know, wherever I get a chance like that or even if I’m having a massage, I’ve got an audio book on like it’s going in in the car. It just clicks in. There’s no second that we’re not listening to an audio book or thirsty for knowledge or understanding. Now, not everybody is going to be is wired like me, but thirsty for knowledge means you’re growing yourself. And I suppose that comes through Payman to earlier my staff. I want them to feel that as well. I my job is to make them the best they can be, not hold onto them for ten or fifteen years in a practise because my practise then becomes stale.

[00:41:16] What are some of your favourite books, books that changed your

[00:41:20] Books that changed me? I think the telomere effect fairly recently is a wonderful book about health and it’s written by Nobel Prise winner. And it makes you understand how you can change yourself very quickly. The telomere effect. So that’s health. I love legacy. And it’s all about why the All Blacks have a success rate of 80 percent and the next best team is in the 60 percent. And it’s because they have a great culture and it me and it’s the most to most experienced team members will clean down the dressing room and leave it as they found it, regardless of wherever they play. So, again, that’s a great book for culture. I think Richard Khordad, to make people understand money and being financially free and just simple sort of understanding of finance, I think that’s a great book. I could keep going. I missed a great book, Just Understanding Business. And again, I love Simon Sinek and his mentality to infinite business mentality. Same in myself. It doesn’t stop. Why should it stop? Why should we finish? Nothing should finish. Everything should be infinite

[00:42:32] And do so in all of this. What you’ve been talking about, it sounds super successful. You’ve started off this journey. We mentioned in business from day one as an associate right through to having probably one of the most successful practises in the UK. And what really rings true there is you spend one and a half days there. So it really is a true business, right? It operates without you. What have been some of the darkest moments during that journey where you’ve really hit rock bottom? Can you share some of those with us? Because there must have been, even despite having all these advantages of being tuned into business from job number one, it must have been some big mistakes or some dark moments that you can share with us where it just it wasn’t quite going to fun.

[00:43:17] Yeah. First of all, I have made a lot of mistakes, and I think you speak to anybody that’s successful, they’ll say that they made a lot of mistakes and therefore I am happy to try them. And if you’re happy to try stuff, of course, you fall over. So I would say I think I probably would have made more mistakes than most, but that’s part of just giving it a go and then having that confidence. I hope it works and put my energy into that. And I would say constantly we sort of get it wrong and we’ve got to readjust it. Even the other day with one of my reception team, I sort of said we’re going to change things around. And then she came to see me and told me her point of view and I realised now I got it wrong. Absolutely, I got it wrong. But I would say my hardest days were definitely when I became a principal in a practise and I knew there was no direction, which was similar to where I wanted to take the practise. And I was being told that my style of Dental was different to theirs. And the comprehensive approach is not the right way.

[00:44:20] So I would say that that was very difficult because I was going through a period of playing cricket three or four times a week and working three times a week and then going to working five days a week, as well as being an owner, being a principle, being aligned with my partners that weren’t aligned with me. And they are great people, by the way. They’re really lovely people. It’s just they weren’t aligned with me. And I’m still here. I’m here in Henley giving this interview and I’m great friends with them. We are now a lot of water under the bridge with no recourse of what happened then, because I’ve learnt from it and often my tormentors have become my mentor. So I love the fact that it was so difficult then and I became even thirstier to become better as a dentist. So I would say they were definitely my hardest days. And also when we took over 11, when we had sort of roll the dice of Prav putting everything in and I will still go back to none of the three partners got paid for one year and only Shivani got paid the second year. And then we started drawing in the year three.

[00:45:28] So again, there were times where we had our principles in place and we weren’t drawing any money, but we were fortunate that we had other businesses where we could live from. But they were not easy days because you’ve taken over this massive seven, four, seven business in central London and you’re young and everybody’s older than you and everybody appears very established and very confident. And I haven’t even got any grey hairs. And and it was just tough. But I suppose my network at that stage, they were all entrepreneurs and they were going through the same thing. And I would say that I had a lot of solace in hanging out with friends that were going through the same as what I was at that stage, especially when we took over 11. And it was really struggling to get off the ground with this big jumbo jet. And I just think it was great having people around me going through the same stuff. So I would say they would be my darkest or hardest days. But but saying that Prav, as you know me, a very positive, they became the most important days for me to be who I am today

[00:46:36] While we’re on it. What’s been your biggest clinical mistakes and what have you learnt from those?

[00:46:43] Yeah, I think the biggest clinical mistake is to treat anybody. And actually, I’m such a big believer in treating people that you want to treat and have the same values and have come to see you. And so I’m lucky enough now. A bit more experience that often happens as it comes to recommendation, but when you start, you want to treat everybody and if I can make a big sort of shout out to people starting their careers or starting their practise, I would say just make sure you’re comfortable with everybody, Yewtree and some you might not get right. And you can sort of get through it, but don’t treat everybody because they’re going to be some people you can never, ever satisfy. Even if you did the best dentistry that you could do and you can get you know, you could get the ball out the ground six out of six and they would still not be happy. And I think preparation of having a good team

[00:47:37] Is a particular episode that you can

[00:47:42] Tell the wrong to perforate the canal, that sort of thing.

[00:47:45] No, I go back to when I think guys, we used to drink so much like it used to be a concern to these students, these White House officers. And I remember who I used on PEDs and this boy, 16 year old boy, came in for an extraction of a lower left six. And I had had a skinful the night before and I was wearing my mask and I said to my nurse, can you call the patient and sign the consent? He’s 16 from the parents. And please don’t bring the parents in because I stink of booze. And he came in and I stop giving the local on the opposite side, just put the needle in and I came out straight away, going up the wrong side, put it in the other side, gave the local and the poor kid said to me, why don’t you put it in both sovereigns? I said, sometimes as we cross over nodes. And I said, from that day, I am not. So that was the end of me boozing or having more than a couple of glasses before I work. And so that was it. I would say that that was not a good place to be. And I learnt my lesson very quickly.

[00:48:55] That lesson is kind of obvious. What the previous thing you talked about, was there a patient that you couldn’t please or you didn’t judge them? Right. We had Paul Pomerol and he said the lesson he had a massive situation with his brother, with being sued and all that. And he said the lesson you learnt from that was that even the people you really, really, really get on with could turn. So you advised that you don’t treat everyone. So he was saying sometimes you think the person is absolutely right and it could turn ugly. So did you have one of those episodes

[00:49:33] You saw the lady of 11, about 20 percent fly in to see us. And there was one time a lady had come in from Jersey and she was a lovely Indian lady. And I think I even said, I’m going to treat you like I would treat my mama. I think I said that she brought up later on and she had some concerns and we got along so well and it was orthodontics followed by four a.m. and it would seem like that was the plan. And at the end of orthodontics, she was super happy. And the Provisionals, she was super happy. And always after I was on, I see everybody for a review to check the colour, to control everything. And that’s my protocol. And I went against that protocol because I rang her and said, how is everything? She said, everything’s fine about this one. Maybe we can make that bit short and rotate it. And I said, okay. And she came back and she wasn’t she wasn’t the phone. And she signed the disclaimer after we call them, and she was happy. And in the end she went to five consults to see if it was OK.

[00:50:41] And I paid for those consults and all those all the Dental said it was absolutely superb. Yeah, she wasn’t happy. And in the end, she came back and said, actually, I’ve now had some time. I think it looks really good, but I want half my money, otherwise I’m going to kick up a stink. So what do you do? You then manage it to say actually, well, you’ve reached it and I won’t tell you what I did because I don’t think it’s relevant to the whole thing. But what it means is stick to your protocol, stick to the way you do stuff. And again, all of these are just learning lessons. You know, when you’re in it, you think, oh, God, what a helmet, why do I do that? But then you realise actually stick to your protocol, stick to the system, stick to what you do and try not to go out of that too much, because actually that’s when you produce the best clinical dentistry and the most effective.

[00:51:34] And I mean, look, you put the final videos on. You said you liked it, then you cemented it on his face. You didn’t like it. Is that what happened?

[00:51:43] Yeah, pretty pretty much. I came back for the review and then said, no, I’m not that happy with it,

[00:51:48] Because if you had followed your protocol, you still would have probably ended up in the same situation in a way.

[00:51:53] Perhaps, perhaps. But again, when I look back at myself and said, where did I go wrong? Because I. And again, you know, the sports mentality is you could try to control the bulls. That’s what happened. But then you do. I gave the money back. That’s not the right thing to do because I didn’t want the hassle. But I don’t I know you so well.

[00:52:14] And this is supposed driven person. Let’s talk about the courts. Well, it’s interesting, man. It’s interesting. Sometimes you have to buy your way out of this sort of problem, even if it’s a good idea, it’s your principles. Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. Tell us about the course. But because it’s a very interesting idea, it’s a year course for purely non-clinical stuff, including some clinical as well.

[00:52:44] Yeah. And so, look, it came from lock down.

[00:52:47] And I mean, it’s got a name.

[00:52:50] Yeah, it’s called the Dental Entrepreneurial Programme. And you’ll find on a Dental Leaders dotcom elite Dental Leaders dot com. And the programme is called Dental Entrepreneurs Programme. And it’s very much for people who are interested in the non-clinical side of things, but also how to marry that up into the clinical side. And the whole of the first. It’s a module, it’s over one year. So so we’re all together. It’s only a small cohort of limited numbers. And we then go on this journey together like an MBA style. And so the first two days will be all about finding your true north, understanding what good leadership looks like, because leadership varies for everybody. It’s not the same leadership for everybody and understanding yourself. And we’re so lucky. We’ve got a Harvard Business School graduate and an educator coming to run that Hassan Khan. I mean, obviously, I’ll be sharing a lot of my stories in dentistry, but almost he is going to take care of that and say what they learn at Harvard Business School about running a business and what tips that they can give. The second module is about brand and team and culture and so on, brand, again, I’ll share with the delegates exactly what we have done at 11 and why the brand is so important rather than the individual.

[00:54:16] Obviously, you’ve got to have a brand yourself as a dentist, but the brand individual is very important. And we have the GM of Nike UK coming to tell us about how they have literally pivoted from being a consumer business into a virtual business, but also what Nyaka doing to maintain their presence as a high performer. So I’m trying to bring the elite of both in business and in sport together to allow us to all understand where we’re headed because our journeys are all different. And then the team and ship is going to be run by the Clive Woodward who won, who was the leader when England won the World Cup and how he put his whole team together and the mantra of being together and how he dealt with difficult individuals and how he put them within the team and how the team planned and how they did it all together. And it’s the DNA of a champion is his lecture.

[00:55:12] And this is what all these guys will patients

[00:55:14] Know they’re either friends or people that I now know well. So, again, I’d ask them to be involved with this and so lucky that they’re open to helping people go to the next level of the third module. It becomes a little bit more clinical and understanding how we do on new patient appointments at all, the way from the phone calls, how we answer them to treatment planning and how to change single tooth dentistry to comprehensive to Dental, which is what we do every day as dentists.

[00:55:43] So that if it is, I guess maybe from the clinical aspect, most valuable piece is that

[00:55:50] I mean I mean, it’s going to it’s so exciting because that’s when we’ve now found what you’re all about. You found it. Identify where you’re going to go. But actually the clinical side is what we connect us. And so I will share with you how we convert those single tooth dentistry patients into comprehensive how we do a new patient appointment and how important photography is. And Menasche Patel from Focus is going to come and do the whole photography side of things to me on that. And then finally, it will be the fourth module is about financial intelligence, how to understand your business, but also to create wealth. And my mantra on that is most dentists are one step away from being wealthy and it’s this financial intelligence module that’s going to help you to do it.

[00:56:38] Well, of course, so it’s eight days,

[00:56:41] It’s eight clinical days, obviously, there’s a lot of reading that goes alongside the this of Harvard Business School myself, we’ve put together during these three months times your way. But there will be meetings for the cohorts through that period on their commitments through that phase. It’s going to be held at Lord’s Cricket Ground, which is the home of cricket, which is, you know, and so that really brings it home for me as well. And if you want to know more, go to Dental, Leaders dot com. And we have sold half of the course at the moment and there’s an application form on there at the moment. But I’m sure if it’s successful, we will run it another cohort in the year to come.

[00:57:19] And just what’s the investment for that programme?

[00:57:22] It’s twelve thousand pounds for the full year.

[00:57:26] So moving forward, what’s the plan for whether you’ve grown sevenfold, six fold, six fold, you’ve grown six fold. Is there an exit strategy here? Is it now a business that just sort of looks after itself? You there are one and a half days away. Is there another practise in the pipeline?

[00:57:45] And there’s a whole chain coming. Isn’t going to go now.

[00:57:49] Look, I think it’s a very boutique practise. And the people we found that work within it, we work really well. We love creating high quality dentistry. And I get a lot of joy from my dentistry there. And so there’s no plan at the moment. We there is still space to grow. And so, as always, there will be a three month board meeting with action plans in place and we will hopefully just continue growing that

[00:58:20] The practise looks. Did you change that or did it look like that when you when you bought it?

[00:58:26] I’d love to share with you those pictures of before and somehow try and get them to you. It used to be reception. There was a there was a chair in there that had no spittoon and no sink. The lounge was blue carpet with four yellow stools. The bathroom had a baby changing area. And the ladies, it was horrific. There was one nice room at the back and upstairs was just a derelict shell where a paediatric doctor used to work.

[00:58:56] Oh, so you did all of that yourself. And so did you have an interior designer and architect? And so we had an architect.

[00:59:05] And I have to say, Shivani has been instrumental in the way that we have managed that. And so I would say the architect with Shivani, because, you know, your practise is an is an extension of you and we always wanted it to be asked that was doing that. And I would say that that is one of the whole things we say. We build trust as dentists. It’s got to go from websites to the way it looks, to the way you talk and the way you present and all your literature and everything. It’s got to be on

[00:59:33] Point because stunning building. Tell me about Shibani 11. Does she have only a clinical role or does she have a management role? And how many days is she there? And where are you the rest of the week?

[00:59:46] Yes. So Shivani is a clinical partner at eleven and she said two days a week and she comes from a background of being a hospital consultant. So she very much is in charge of the day to day the systems that are put in place and the way we run the practise from a clinical side, almost bringing that that from the hospital environment. This is how it was done, this how it should be done. These are the standards. So we all have very different roles as partners at the practise and we don’t try and overlap. I don’t try and get involved with that. Yes, I’ll have input. I’m obviously running the business marketing and I’m in charge of recruiting and actually looks for technologies and how we can become more efficient in the practise. So we all have very different roles and I think that’s symbiotic relationship is is is one of the success.

[01:00:32] What you do? The rest is on the one half days you’re there, where are you?

[01:00:35] The rest from two and a half days clinical in Henley and I have Fridays nonclinical and I try and get all my letters, all of the things that you need to run a practise. But I have a lot of people around me that help me run this. So I’m a firm believer of having the right people. You can delegate to that you can trust, which allows you to then to take stuff to the next level, because if you’re in the weeds, you really can’t then start planning for the rest of it. So having good team around you to start taking stuff off of you is a critical thing I would recommend to any leader out there as well.

[01:01:11] Good questions. I go to a lot of practises where there’s no element of performance related incentivization. Do you believe in that or.

[01:01:20] No, we have never performance driven our staff because we’re a health care business. But what what they do know is that there is a target in place at the end of each month that they are not privy to. And I believe they don’t need to know it, because if they do their role right, the practise will achieve that. And so once we achieve that, we do things that I think quite extraordinary, like we have closed down June shoes and gone in and allowed the girls to pick any shoe that they want with champagne in their shop. We Nike have given us vouchers that we can pick any shoe that the girls want if they achieve that target cocktail making evenings at a local place in Mayfair around the corner. So I believe in bringing the team together on a deeper level than a financial level is actually keeps your staff and keeps them loyal. But I believe paying good staff the right amount from the beginning. So therefore, that’s not the issue.

[01:02:26] If I was an associate and I want to be ambitious, I want to work in the West and I want to maybe work at your place. Would you look for would you look for an associates? You look more for the attitude than for the skills, because I’ve talked to a lot of associates and they go, well, I’ve been on this course. I’ve been on that course. Of course. Then I talk to you cats, the owners of these big private places. And a lot of times you guys aren’t looking for that. You’re looking for the patient management more than the clinical.

[01:02:55] Yeah. I mean, we’ve never gone to market for any of the associates. They’ve all been referral recommendation to date. Yeah. So that for me is a really important part of bringing culture in, because then they’ve got they’ve got I’ve just sort of said this is how we work, this is the way we want stuff. And then I totally get it. I want to be on board. And so when you set a culture from the beginning, people then will then align to that. But I think the big thing that I look for is people are a bit like myself, absolutely committed to excellence in clinical dentistry. And so they’re always self improving the keeping going. They’re keeping learning. And I think more than ever, the quality of their photography and perhaps an Instagram account allows me to see how good they are. It’s not that Instagram is important, because if they showed me a good quality photographs of what they do, I can understand that that’s the type of person I want. So I would say clinical photography and good records and a good story book of who you are as well as well presented and the ability to be able to educate patients and speak to them and communicate with them and and engage with them. All of that is what I would be looking for. And if you’re not able to engage or be able to be with anybody like that, you’ve got to learn how to go and understand how to put yourself on, not Dental course on how to how to read course.

[01:04:16] But it’s interesting, you know, I mean, look, I don’t really practise Prav you do that. If two associates present and one has fifty thousand followers and the other doesn’t, you’re going to go for the one with fifty thousand followers on you. Why? Because he’s going to bring in patients

[01:04:32] If that’s what you want. Patients. Yeah. Or the right type of patients. Right.

[01:04:37] Do you. Well do you think so.

[01:04:41] Yeah. I think you want both of those actually I think are still on the fence that you want the right type of quality patients, you want a lot of them. But I think somebody that could that’s going to do the wrong type of dentistry is going to ruin your brand as well. At the same time, you want to feel that trust and perhaps a few meetings and getting them to spend time with you or everybody will spend the day with me before they would start anyway. So again, they know the way the practise works, that it should be as much they choose you as you choose then.

[01:05:10] Yeah, but I could imagine, for instance, if you have one or two years out of university or even five or six years out of university, coming to work at yours is one of those things that a lot of people would like to do. I mean, it’s a great position, I guess I’m saying that right. But what I need to do, it’s interesting. You know, I’d I’d say to a young guy, you know, learn Instagram and learn digital marketing before doing that. MSE Yeah. Because in our world there’s loads of people with messages. Yeah. That’s not the thing that’s going to actually put you above. It’s an interesting world we live in. I mean, I find it amazing that I’m even saying this, but things are moving quickly now. The real

[01:05:51] Issue for sure, I mean, Prav you made the point earlier that it’s that all roundedness that you want,

[01:05:56] Right.

[01:05:57] Erm actually I think there’s some practise will be dying for that and there’ll be other principles that will stay clear of that. And so that would be definitely driven by the principle and the way that that practise was run. Mm.

[01:06:11] Who does the firing. Does that.

[01:06:13] You me talk to me about that night because I do it, it never gets easier and I have that conversation with myself probably ten, fifteen times, probably more. The words I’m going to say how I’m going to do it. My heart rate’s pounding and then you just get it out of your system and it’s like a massive weight off your shoulders. But you just talk us through that, the whole process of fine and maybe an experience where you’ve had. To do it, and it’s been a little bit easier.

[01:06:39] Yeah, I’m just really open on this. It’s not quite working. These are the reasons you’re a great person. If they are, and I wish you all the best, that’s it.

[01:06:49] And it is your approach to it in the build up of it. Is it totally unemotional, just facts driven. And this is what it is. Or just you get

[01:06:59] A little bit if you got to when you know you’re I mean, you guys know me, but it’s the businesses first. It’s not me. So therefore, for the business, this is the right thing to do and therefore it’s not difficult. Yeah. And also, I’ll give you one example. We had four staff, 11 this, this. And I say this was this was D-Day for us. And I went in I fired three on one day and we had one staff because the culture that was being created was wrong. And we’re going to rebuild from here. So don’t be frightened to do that, because if the culture is wrong and somebody being the bad, get rid of them soon. I mean, I generally I would say now with experience, I would get rid of them sooner rather than later. So therefore it doesn’t become difficult.

[01:07:45] And thus I like I like that because on the one side, you’re coming across all soft and touchy feely, but on the other side, you know, you’re strong on the things you believe in. You’re strong for doing it. It’s been lovely having you know, we’re pushed for time now to Prav Joona.

[01:08:07] Yeah. Yeah. So, Semir, imagine it’s your last day on the planet and you’ve got your loved ones around you and you’ve got you’ve got to leave them with three pieces of life wisdom or they’d be.

[01:08:26] Three pieces of life wisdom have infinite spirit, don’t think it’s ever going to end. Just keep going, keep going and have that infinite spirit, I think treat life like a game. And actually, it becomes really fun. Everything is like a small game. And you either win some, you lose some. And it’s OK. Don’t be hard on yourself. Worked hard enough out there. So don’t be hard on yourself and love and not hate, because actually, you know, that’s what’s going to come back to you. And if you’re somebody that enjoys love, then love back and it will come back to you.

[01:09:03] Worked love game for you guys.

[01:09:07] And how would you like to remember you spoke about legacy? What would you like your legacy to be? Samir was finished the sentence.

[01:09:18] Semir was very keen to help and was there when I needed him. I believe there’s lots of friendships out there, but I also know that we all go through ups and downs and great friends turn up when you need them the most, not when they’re superficial.

[01:09:37] So true. And if you had a month left, what would you do with your time? Play loads of cricket.

[01:09:43] Now I’m done playing cricket off now, so I’d probably be playing golf. But I would say with this infinite spirit, I would still I love travelling. I would continue to travel and go to somewhere where I hadn’t seen and explore that area and find a coffee shop and write about that in that area.

[01:10:04] Where’s your favourite place that you have been?

[01:10:07] I would say Australia is very close to my heart with with the stuff I did, but we were very fortunate. We got away before lockdown at Christmas and we probably had our best family holiday in Antigua just this Christmas. Yeah. And the girls are growing up and we would never go away for too long. Obviously, the business and the rest of it and Foreston said we’re going to lock down. So our original 10 day holiday turned into three and a half weeks out there. And that was a wonderful break and a wonderful time with the family with no agenda because we knew very little was happening when we came back.

[01:10:42] I love that, I love that. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you so much on the show.

[01:10:50] Thanks, guys. Appreciate you having me on

[01:10:53] The course at Lord’s, you know, our offices around the corner. So they pop in and say, hey, I would love that. Thank you so much, but thank you. Well, yes,

[01:11:07] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:11:23] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it

[01:11:37] If you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

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