This week, we introduce Amit Patel to the show. Amit is a renowned dentist hailing from a family of successful dental professionals and he shares his insight into growing up in that world.
Hear Amit and Payman talk business in Brickfields and building bridges. Amit shares his experiences in Essex, Yorkshire and beyond, and also discusses the importance of working hard and playing hard.
“There’s always been people, you know, trying to put doom and gloom on it. But, yeah, I love my job. I love working my hands. I love talking to people. I love communicating with patients. And I just think it’s a very rewarding profession, to be sure.” – Rupert Monkhouse
In This Episode
03.49 – Growing up in Essex
06:33 – Leeds is in Bristol
10.20 – Yorkshire education
11.41 – The Dental Network
15:37 – Choosing business partners
20:30 – Qualifying
25:05 – Being a junior
28:44 – Getting your head down
32:46 – Choosing the right courses
35:27 – Timing courses
40:49 – Having a dad in dentistry
42:57 – Lockdown impacts
44:49 – The MAGDS exam
50:09 – Talking business
52:36 – Being the principal dentist
56:13 – Brickfield’s
01:05:07 – Building bridges
01:22:02 – Family life
01:25:23 – Legacy & last days on Earth
About Amit Patel
Amit graduated from the University of Leeds with a Merit of Distinction in the Examination of Clinical Dental Practice. He then completed the postgraduate Membership of Joint Dental Faculties examinations and the prestigious Diploma in Implant Dentistry with the Royal College of Surgeons England.
Following this, he completed the 1-year Foundation in Implant Dentistry supported by the International Team for Implantology and also completed a four years masters programme in fixed and removable prosthodontics.
Amit is an Educational Supervisor for East of England and train newly qualified dentists and was shortlisted as a finalist in the Best Young Dentist category at the Dentistry Awards.
In 2015 he won Highly Commended Best Young Dentist South Region and In 2017 and Young Dentist of the Year at the Dental Awards.
[00:00:00] We all know that when you go on a course, you take away 20 percent of the knowledge from that day and sometimes you’ve got to keep going back to the same course. And there’s course more than twice
[00:00:11] People say, I mean, you stupid and no, no, you
[00:00:14] Only take away 20 percent. And if you’ve had a night out after, it’s five percent.
[00:00:21] But I’ve done many small make over 50 times that year. Honestly, I still learn every time. Yeah, I still learn. I’ve watched that guy talk.
[00:00:36] This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders. Don’t destroy your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav.
[00:00:51] Solanki gives me great pleasure to welcome Amit Patel onto the podcast who I’ve known for. I don’t know, probably since you disqualified me. I’m it’s well known on the Dental sort of stage. He’s the founder of Dental Circle and someone who’s done a lot of postgrad education coming from a family of your dad’s dentist. So are there any other dentists in your family?
[00:01:16] Mum’s a dentist system
[00:01:17] To answer dentist. Wife’s a dentist.
[00:01:21] Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I would like to start with early life. So was it you going to be a dentist for sure from the beginning or what you like as a kid?
[00:01:32] I guess if you look at typical Indian families,
[00:01:37] It was either going to be
[00:01:38] Indian doctor or a pharmacist or dentist or so. But my parents always said to me, you know, I might do something that you’ll enjoy, do something they’re going to job security. And those are the most important things value in my family. So I think with those values and the fact that I guess I am biased towards dentistry because I grew up with that, I sort of fell naturally into it originally. I actually want to be an architect. I was quite a graphic designer, school and design and technology, and I loved that. But when I weighed up the pros and cons of studying architecture or dentistry, architecture was a seven year course. And to really break it, you know, in that field,
[00:02:24] You’ve got to have a lot of luck, but you’ve got to
[00:02:26] Really, really work hard at it, you know, to get those big jobs and all those massive skyscrapers in London. You know, that doesn’t happen overnight. It doesn’t happen in dentistry either. But I did come to see an easy kind of route to maybe the lifestyle that I potentially wanted or the just quality of life, not just financially going down the dentistry route. I’m really glad that I did it. And I think it’s a great profession. It’s a great career to be in. There’s always been people, you know, trying to put doom and gloom on it. But, yeah, I love my job. I love working my hands. I love talking to people. I love communicating with patients. And I just think it’s a very rewarding profession, to be sure.
[00:03:13] But, you know, as a kid with both your parents, were they both working in Brickfield’s?
[00:03:18] Yeah. So my dad has I think over the years he’s had about three practises. Yeah. He sold two. And now Brickfield’s is his baby in Essex. That’s where we work together. And my mum, she’s always worked really hard. I mean, are really the cuts. My parents my parents were part of the generation that saw kicked out of Africa. The country when he was nine years old, couldn’t really speak English. Same with my mum as well.
[00:03:48] And Uganda.
[00:03:49] Uganda, yeah. Uganda and Kenya. So they didn’t come from a privileged background. And, you know, I look at what they’ve achieved in bringing up myself and my sister and what they’ve done with their life and businesses and investments. And, you know, I’ve read my parents. I think it’s obviously fantastic what they’ve done. And I’m just, you know, fortunate that, you know, I have had a privileged background because I’ve worked so hard. But, you know, I do read a couple to them because they came to this country with nothing and, you know, they they worked hard. So my mum, when she gave birth to me, she only really had six weeks of work and then she was straight back at it. I’m used to the nurses still joke that she used to take me to work and leave me in the extra room.
[00:04:41] So much.
[00:04:42] So why did they have they always been in Essex? Your parents,
[00:04:50] Another from North West London. Elder’s green. And my dad was West Ham is a West Ham fan. You know, my dad went to a really rough school. People were getting stabbed all the time. A lot of racism, that’s just where he grew up. So, yeah, I think that he’s like as I’ve said it many, many times, that I’m lucky I’m fortunate to have that support from my family because I definitely wouldn’t be where I am now without them.
[00:05:20] Did you feel you know, you’re saying privileged as a child. Did you feel privileged or did you know no better?
[00:05:28] I want to say privileged, I mean, I went to a private school. If you look at if you could meet me when I was 10 years old, you wouldn’t think I’d be doing dentistry. All the terror I even at 16, 17, 18, I didn’t think that I’ll be a dentist. I was bad. I was naughty. I went to a nice school, but it was basically a school for four rich kids and it was just you get away with murder. But having said that, I felt like it also means more well-rounded person. I was, you know, okay, at sports, I was I was never the brightest in the class. I worked hard at it. What’s I think put me in good stead. I do actually kind of have a photographic memory. And yeah. So I’m pretty good at picking out things quite quickly so that I think that has saved me.
[00:06:28] I used to live. I live with a guy like that too. Yeah. Annoying.
[00:06:33] I think that’s what saved me. But I look back. If my parents didn’t put me in good education then I probably again wouldn’t be where I am is thanks to them. I have I have obviously worked hard to to get to where I am now. But I think the initial push at the beginning when I was deciding on Jesus’s and A-levels, that really came from the home upbringing. But yeah, they they they bought me things that I wanted, I guess, you know, I was spoilt. But having said that, my parents have come from nothing. So it wasn’t just fed with a silver spoon. You know, they would teach me the value of money. So I’m and a big thing in our family as well is just spending time with our family. You know, we really have we’re really close. And I think that’s really nice as well. But, you know, I can tell my mom anything, so that’s also quite nice. I’ve been brought up that way.
[00:07:32] And are you older than your sister?
[00:07:33] Yeah, she’s two years younger than me. She’s doing her specialist training at the Eastman.
[00:07:38] You she you see.
[00:07:41] So when you want to study, where do you study? In London.
[00:07:45] I went to Leeds. Any place you would take these. Yeah, really. I mean, this is me living in the ethics bubble when my when my parents said to me, we have to go and look at least Dental school, I thought near Bristol
[00:07:58] How I get that
[00:08:01] That that Brentwood school education. They didn’t take you to geography.
[00:08:05] Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:07] So but I, I believe in fate. I’m a great I’m a
[00:08:11] Big believer
[00:08:13] And I had a few hurdles to to get in. I guess the first hurdle was I got rejections from everywhere else and Leaders was the only place offered me an interview. Solanki was buzzing about that. I went to interview, I got off on the next day. So hopefully they like me. And when the offer came through, it said I a b in any subject. Now, normally back then it was specified you have to get in biology and chemistry and a B or an and other subject, preferably maths or physics, but it said non-specified. So I accepted the offer straight away because it was the only place that would give me an offer. And it was an amazing offer as well. So I literally can’t accept because I knew I wanted dentistry and I got an email about two weeks after accepting it, saying, sorry, we’ve made a mistake. No. Yeah, actually, it’s not a B non-specified. It’s we want you to get an eye in biology and chemistry and an A B or something like that in physics. So I emailed them back. I guess I was quite ballsy and I said I accepted your offer on the basis of what you know, it was non-specified. I’ve had offers from other universities. I didn’t I just assumed they didn’t know that. And they were saying, OK, that’s fine, we made a mistake, keep it as it was. Oh, no. And I’ll end up getting to be in the physics.
[00:09:45] So I think I owe it
[00:09:48] All paid off in the end. Yes, I was quite lucky.
[00:09:52] So Leeds a great city to study and because there’s so many students compared to the size of the population. Yeah, but how did it feel touching down in Yorkshire from your sort of southern.
[00:10:03] Sort of my when I went to the ball unfordable, Volkers was four quid. You can imagine
[00:10:13] Exact same thing happened to be in Cardiff when I was the first night it was I was buying drinks for
[00:10:20] So but yeah, no, it was a great city. I mean, Dental school was fantastic. A lot of. Great support and teaching, I think the class wasn’t too old a year wasn’t too big, it was three seventy five people, so we got a lot of one to one teaching again up there. The socio economic status on the patients is lower. So we really got stuck in with extractions and deep carious feelings. I got quite a bit of experience, I believe. Great party town make great Connexions got a really good solid friend group. We lived in the same house with nine lads over the five years, so we had nine bedroom house. I think it was three floors. You can imagine what that was like. So yeah, we just we had a really, really good time and yeah, I enjoyed Dental school there and I recommend it to a lot of people.
[00:11:15] You went to the same sort of time as runover. You must
[00:11:19] Think she
[00:11:20] Was here one or two years above.
[00:11:22] You remember her back then?
[00:11:24] No, no, no. I don’t think Instagram wasn’t invented and I don’t think so.
[00:11:31] Then around how
[00:11:33] Long after you qualified did you do Dental Circle? Because that’s when I sort of started to hear about you. Was that soon after you qualified?
[00:11:41] I’m so in the final year of university, she started something called the Dental Network, and the purpose of that was to connect just Dental professionals. And again, it came from the fact that I if I had a clinical problem, I could literally bring out my mom and my dad and say, what do I do here? Whereas my housemates, with some of them didn’t have family Dental backgrounds or didn’t have the connexions. So I was lucky and I wanted to basically make something that would allow professionals to connect. And the whole point was having newly qualified people connecting with more experienced colleagues and the experienced colleagues would provide support and mentoring. And that all stemmed from the fact that, again, I thought I was lucky and other people could do with help that didn’t have the back, that didn’t have family background dentistry. So that’s how it started. I think I met a website man in Southend on Sea. He charged me four thousand pound to make a basic website and I was happy with it. And it started from there. It was just me, one man band. I was in the final year of uni and we know what to do. I created a logo and I got maybe two hundred members in six months. So then I qualified for university, did my Ph.D. in my hometown of Essex. So I loved Leeds, but I knew I wanted to come home and I wrote an article in Dentistry magazine. So FBC just about the Dental network and how I thought it would help other professionals.
[00:13:15] And the bottom of the article, you’re probably aware that you put your email address and details about you and I got a phone call from a guy called Dev and he just said, Hi, my name’s Dave, I’m a dentist. I seen your article. I think we should talk and also talk about what he was like. Well, I’ve been thinking about your idea, and I think you’ll be good if we’ll be partners. And it was literally like, you know, who are you? So we met up in blue for lunch and we had Nando’s. And he basically said that I think, you know, we’ve got something here and I’d want to be business partners with you. And it just stemmed from there. We found a different developer. We found the developer in Newcastle who specifically designs networking platforms. And we put everything in place, you know, licences, protocols, GDP, all lawyers, solicitors. But to this day, I mean, they’ve equal partners. We only have about five thousand pounds each into the business of our in cash. So ten grand got us started. And we’ve run that now for maybe six years old and similar seven years on. We’re coming up to and you know, it works very well. What if it was about one hundred and fifty thousand. It’s been valued eleven times. We’ve had offers from multiple people to buy it. So and that’s just from ten grand investment.
[00:14:45] I mean, look, there is you know, I’ve had him on this show as well. He is the kind of guy a bit a bit like Prav who can jump into business with 14 different people and and not really, like, have to know them in the first place. You know, Prav Prav owns a bunch of practises here and a business there. And he a bunch of other businesses with different people. I always say to him, how can you trust all these people? And, you know, someone like Prav he trusts isn’t even part of it. He goes in, ask the questions and and handles everything. And I can see there’s that cat, too.
[00:15:23] But you did. You did. You don’t think
[00:15:25] We’re going to business with a total stranger? I would never have done that. I would never done that.
[00:15:30] You know what is true or did you click?
[00:15:33] Did you really click and you trusted him there and that was it. I didn’t.
[00:15:37] I’m quite sceptical about these things. I take a lot of time to make those decisions. But you it’s always good to have a business partner, I think someone to bounce ideas off. And and that’s what I wanted. He brought more of the business side. I was more the creative and I think we just gelled. And now we’re really good friends. You know, we’re best friends now. He was best man at my wedding. So so we really you know, we talked to each other normally every day. And it’s all stemmed from that Dental three magazine article. And it really took off and it was on a journey. It helped build my profile. I got to meet with other companies. I got to know people like yourself and the Dental industry. So it wasn’t just about I mean, it was a business. You know, the purpose of it was to make a business out of it, but it made me a better person. I learnt a lot from it and have taught me a lot as well. And yeah, I think you just know that when you just go with someone and he’s, you know, I trust him and he looks the good thing about them is that he looks after people and that’s the nice thing about him. I can bring him up tomorrow inside, never got a problem and he’ll be there and you know, and be the same vice versa. That’s kind of relationship we have. And it’s nice when you get of any built that in the last seven years with him. But it’s owning a business together has helped develop that friendship. So it was purely business at the beginning. But business aside, we can just sit and chat like best mates and we want to talk about business
[00:17:13] And what is what is the business model? Is the sponsorship?
[00:17:18] Yeah. So we generate money from advertising, marketing, sponsorship. I guess the membership now going to be thirteen thousand dentists in the UK and we run courses. When Kovik came, we kind of put a hold on that just because it was more difficult to run courses during that time with the regulation. So yeah, now it just takes an online model generating revenue from that and building relationships. And we have really good, strong relationships with our companies that we work with. We’ve done the shows at Dental show. We’ve been able to have the standards and a presence, I guess a funny story from one of the shows, something I’ll never forget. I’ve had loads of, you know, family have helped us with this. It was a start up business. My mum used to come and help us at the Dental show. She would be there with Dental Saku Flyer’s Maddie would be the Krishna. Dave’s wife would be there. That’s what he needs. You need your family around you when you do a Start-Up, because we can’t afford to pay people wages. And we were running a competition with a whitening company and we had whitening boxes like the kit. And the promotion was if you signed the Dental circle, you’d get a whitening kit. But they were just dummies. There was no gels in them. So we had them all stacked up. And the whole purpose was, if you register on Dental circle, we would send you an email and you’d be able to collect a free whitening at a later date. But at the show, I didn’t see my mum for ages and I said, Where is she? And then she came up to me and she was like, I I’ve bit of the whitening kits. What do you mean, Mum? And she gave me about three to quit in cash the dentistry.
[00:19:07] So I said, well, so where’s
[00:19:13] This come from? Should I solve
[00:19:14] The one ticket. Oh one the ones in the stand said Mum there empty. There’s no gelatine. Oh she said, oh no. I’ve given the boxes. I said I spent half my time
[00:19:30] On the show trying to get my mum to explain what
[00:19:33] These people look like so I could give them a
[00:19:37] Pure bred entrepreneurial mum.
[00:19:40] We’ve had some funny times as well. I think the. Thing about that, and again, I think you know me, I like a good time and I, you know, a night out and connecting with people. So along that journey, we’ve had a great time building that business. Yeah, it’s just just been a fantastic experience and we’ve just had some great laughs along the way. And I think that just makes it that much sweeter and.
[00:20:06] Well, I mean, what’s the size of the organisation? Do you have any full time employees or what’s the story with us?
[00:20:11] Yeah, we got marketing manager, we got graphic designer and we got website developer all on retainers. So otherwise it’s just myself, my dad’s death. We just
[00:20:24] He’s middle of the business. If you take a little bit of a back seat and people would sort of run it for us now. So that’s quite good
[00:20:33] For a lovely businessman or a lovely person. So then let’s let’s talk clinically. You know, you’ve gone down a bunch of different routes. So you’ve you’ve done your implant diploma. You’ve said you’ve become a specialist in restorative. When you were thinking of specialising, I mean, I don’t know,
[00:20:54] I’m not I’m not seeing the specialist register. Are you about to be the content that I’ve done? Yeah, because the Kings is distance learning, you don’t get specialist for just the status. And I never actually wanted to go down that route. I always knew that I wanted to be a journalist. And again, that stemmed from my father. He’s maybe got seven degrees after his name. And he always said to me that if you get the qualifications in. You’ll not only learn the skills and the knowledge to be able to do sort of high end quality dentistry, but you’ll get referrals. And patients will find you. So he said just from the beginning, if we can do it, just get cracking with the postgrads. And I didn’t have you know, I funded it all myself. I mean, honestly, I’ve probably forget the days out of practise. I’ve probably spent about one hundred and fifty thousand since I qualified just on pure Dental education. If you factor in losses and earnings from the practise, obviously that be much, they’ll be crazy money, but it’s it’s been worth it. I’m at a point now where I don’t know everything and you know that I’m not as experienced as you. I look at my elders and people that have more experience and I’ve got a lot of respect for them because you can’t be experienced in general practise.
[00:22:23] Having said that, I do believe and I’m a strong believer that what I’ve done in a short space of time, in seven years since I qualified, that I’m at a position now where I can kind of dictate the kind of dentistry that I want to do if I don’t want to do a filling. And I have to if I want to. In the end, I don’t have to. I can just stick to full mouth rehab and implants and I’m not the best at it. I’m always learning, but I’m doing these cases so I can I need to see long term cases. I’m doing it so I can learn from my failures. And again, protecting yourself from point of view. I want to be able to show my patients and have the backing of good Dental schools and colleges where I’ve trained. So I started off with the JDF. I guess a lot of people say don’t waste your money on that. But it was just something that you did, I guess. Now, if you don’t, you have JDF, you do an invisible course. So Invisalign is a new JDF for young dentists.
[00:23:26] And that’s no disrespect to Invisalign. It’s just times have moved on. But when I qualified seven years ago, it was you didn’t JDF and that was it. So I went to Emirates Stadium. I took the exam. Did JDF got the qualification. Then after that, I did one year programme with the TII or learning how to restore implants. And the reason why I did that is I knew that I loved surgical dentistry, but I wanted to understand how to restore implants first before going onto placements. So I did that with Stralman and that was a great starter, but it never really pushed me. It wasn’t a course that I mean, I did learn a lot, but it didn’t push me out. I want to be pushed because I’m hungry for education. So I ended up doing a Maxxie in a research at field and that was a game changer for me. I would recommend everyone to do a year in hospital, even if you want to be a top 10 cosmetic dentist. It just, in my opinion, teaches you how to deal with problems. Yeah, and that’s outside of dentistry. It makes you think differently. And outside the box, I remember I have my first day on long call. There was a lady that had been in a fight and I was at three o’clock in the morning and the consultant wasn’t there. And it was a hospital where there’s no middleman, there’s no registrar, it’s just consultant and junior. And I was a junior at home sleeping. And my she came in and her face was light, like fucked.
[00:25:05] But yeah, her eyes were hanging out the bruising everywhere she couldn’t see and. Oh and I get a call saying you’re to come see this patient. I don’t know what to do. But you being the consultant, I don’t want to be disturbed, disturbed at three o’clock. And he was literally like, I mean what. And I was like, look, sir, there’s a problem here. I don’t feel comfortable enough to describe the case to him. And you just really have to think on your feet. I remember two weeks into that job, I wasn’t getting it. I just everything was going wrong. I didn’t feel confident and I’m quite confident person. But that really took me down a few notches. And I probably needed it because I was a bit cocky and I needed to be taken down a few pegs. And that was the job did that to me. And the consultant actually said to me two weeks in I mean, I don’t think this is working out. I don’t think it’s worthwhile you coming to work tomorrow. That’s what he said to me. And I was like, well, I went home and I was living with my parents at that time. And I told my parents and I said, I don’t want I don’t think I want to go back tomorrow. I think I’m done. I was two weeks in. My mum and dad were like, look, you know, I’ve never heard words like this from you, you know? You sound defeated like a broken man.
[00:26:26] I think I’m a broken man, you know, and they said, look, you’ve you’ve always got your problems. You just need to take a breather, a crack on, and you just need to show this consultant that this is the job for you and you’re going to crack it. You need to win him over. That’s what you need to do, even if it means kissing his arse for a couple of weeks and you’re his top junior. My parents said you do that because you change that opinion of him. So I went back the next day and that’s what I did. I put my head down. I wasn’t cocky. I got the job done. I learnt. And, you know, I ended up being his top junior. And after a year of that, he offered me a job at the end. And he said, I mean, you I like the way that you do work. I like working with you. Do you want to stay on the staff? I always knew that I wanted to be in practise because I love practise, I love restorative dentistry and implant industry. But he said, look, even if you want to go back to practise you to work part time and I was really honoured the fact that you offered me a job so I couldn’t turn it down. So I stayed on for another six months. It didn’t last longer than that because I had to make a decision to go into practise full time. But again, I had another situation where I was put in an adverse situation completely foreign to me, and I worked hard at it and I’m glad that I did.
[00:27:59] So after the hospital job, I started the Clinton for years at Kings with Professor Brownmiller and stupidly at the same time, I also started the implant diploma at Royal College of Surgeons. So same time. Yeah, so I had an excellent Dental, which is a double masters. I did that alongside the Diploma in Dentistry, which is also a master’s level, and that was tough. You know, I was working in practise and bearing in mind that Clinton every year you would see 12 essays. You’ve got to do the contact days at Kings and you’ve got to do three days of exams and submit five cases every year. Then the implant diploma. You’ve got to do ten essays every year and you got to submit cases and you have to do the contact that asks in London two days a month. That was tough. But again, I do believe I’m one of these people that has I’ve always had a great work life balance. You know, I’m not a geek and I’m sure you know that. And I know when to study and put my head down. But I also know when to have a relief and go out with the lads. And as long as I got that balance right. I was okay, and after four years in the Clinton and two years with the implant diplomacy, as I passed them both, I got distinction with the Clinton and I was chuffed about that.
[00:29:27] And I even got asked to go back and be a teacher on the programme. So I’ve done that with Brian Miller. That was really nice to be invited back and the implant diploma finished. And when I said about the I.T. course, I didn’t push me. The implant course asks really push me. That’s when I started placing a lot of implants, but it taught me textbook dentistry. You were not allowed to place an implant without a Worksop, without Steane. A full case report. Appropriate radiographs is how dentistry should be done without cutting corners. And that really, really taught me how to do things properly. Look after the patient. So we didn’t rush the cases and that implant diploma. Avivah, at the end, the final exam, that was probably one of the toughest exams I’ve ever sat. It’s got about 20 percent pass rate and you get grilled. I mean, they hand it to you. In my final visor, I presented a live case, then a three unit bridge in I believe the chamber went really well. And I was happy with the pictures and the outcome of the patient was really happy. And what is the exam thinking that ask questions about the sinus lift? Because that was what the case was about and they picked up on the tiniest little thing and they said, oh, I see you prescribe the patient arnica. And I was like, yeah, cooperation’s arnica pre and post op implant treatment, and they were like, let’s talk about Arnica mate for half
[00:30:56] An hour and I’ve got the guy with me
[00:31:00] On the mode of action
[00:31:01] Of arnica. Like, is
[00:31:05] It licenced in the UK? What countries is banned, in what doses do I use in what the side effects.
[00:31:12] Did you have the answers? No.
[00:31:17] So I was prepared for Sina’s live and he’s arnica so.
[00:31:24] But he was right. And you know what I learnt from it because he said if you’re giving a drug to a patient, you should know its mode of action, you should know its side effects. And I was like, you’re completely right. I’m a dentist. I’m prescribing I’ve learnt from it. So I think there’s always been something that I’ve learnt from along, you know, and
[00:31:45] These these courses, like you can say, oh, they they made a man of you, right. Because, you know, discipline, reading, writing, essays, course presentations and all of that. But I’m interested in two things, really. No. One. The value add, of course, to your other than making a man of you value add, but wouldn’t you and you do a restorative effort and then do they start at the beginning again and, you know, do they teach you something? Of course they teach you more than, you know, Leaders. Right.
[00:32:20] But, you know, I mean and you know, some of the best scientists in the UK just have a Bede’s, right.
[00:32:25] So do you weigh that up? Did you weigh that up yourself? I could do short courses or whatever. And and I said before before you go. Before you. And the second thing, your dad’s one of the top implant ologists around. So as far as implants, you could have just shadowed your dad for three months would have been a massive education, you know.
[00:32:46] So it’s always one of those cases where your dad spends more time with other people. He does his own son. You take it for granted. I’ll get onto that. But yeah, I the McLinden to cut long story short with is going back to undergraduate level. The first year I knew most of that stuff. I’ve done tons of courses. I’ve done many small Makov I’ve done for a man. I’ve done finless such as Dental course I honestly I’ve done why I believe some of the top top courses and I just want to structure that’s why I signed up to them. And then I want a proper teaching programme and structure. So with McLynn then I honestly thought is fantastic. But I say to so many dentists to ask me, what do you recommend? You have to go back into practise and what you’ve learnt on that previous day. You’ve got to do it, otherwise you’re not going to do it, whether it be Christo’s Course Aspire or any of these four year long programmes or Glenden or even my friends won’t mind me saying this. Some of my best friends of science and content, they’ve dropped out after a year because they don’t see the value in it. And and the reason is, is that you have to go in to that course and know. Right. I’ve learnt how to take an impression for full potential. I’ve got to find a Dental case next week and do it. And if you don’t do that, it’s a waste of time, wasted money. I wouldn’t recommend anyone doing it because you have to have that mindset that you’re going to go in and actually utilise what you’ve done and that it’s no different to one day course or four year course. It’s exactly the same. And McLinden is not going to make you a better dentist, not for years. It’s yourself doing the treatment on your patients that is going to make you a better dentist.
[00:34:44] What you do with that knowledge?
[00:34:45] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, they can’t come to your practise and hold your hands.
[00:34:50] You know, it’s so interesting you say that because I was talking to Chris, Griselle and we were talking about which they of his cohort, which days are available. Someone asked me, is it easier to get in on a Friday than the Monday, whatever it was? And he said to me that the Friday group are the ones that are most disadvantaged because they haven’t got the next. They’ve clearly always said it’s the weekend. And and he said if it was up to him, you wouldn’t do it on a Friday. But so many people walk to Friday because that’s, you know, traditionally the day they’ve got. Oh, yeah, you say that. It’s just the weekend is said.
[00:35:27] I’m glad that someone like him obviously is saying that because he’s really experienced and he’s been education for a long time. I’ve definitely learnt that. I’ve picked it up myself and I made a point. No matter what I’ve learnt, we all we all know that when you go on a course, you take away 20 percent of the knowledge from that day. And sometimes you’ve got to keep going back to the same course. And there’s course there’s courses on twice.
[00:35:51] People say, I mean, you stupid and I know no, you
[00:35:55] Only take away 20 percent. And if you’ve had a night out after, it’s five percent.
[00:36:02] But I’ve I’ve done many small make of of fifty times now. Yeah. Honestly, I still learn every time. Yeah. I still learn. I’ve watched that guy talk.
[00:36:11] Yeah I, I’m repetitious.
[00:36:15] I completely agree. So I would recommend anyone to go on a course and if it’s a photography course or dentures or composites or implants, you have to implement something from that course. That week is so important and with the modelling done it took me from a single tooth dentist to a full mouth dentist. That was one of the biggest advantages I found from that course. I have always wanted to be a former dentist. Yeah. So again, and you say, especially with the advent of Instagram, the social media, you know, there are people out there that on the photographs, though, did amazing online prep. It looks fantastic. Steak, you got a rubber time air abrasion, they bonded it with heated composite, but they haven’t understood the reason why the truth only in the first place. And that’s the kind of dentistry that I like doing. And I’ll be honest with you, I like making money. So me being a former dentist also gives me the quality of life that I now live because I’m not over treating the patient. I’m not a dentist in sales. I don’t sell to the patient. I literally have learnt the knowledge to explain to the patient, well, the reason why the legal costs for the lower six is fractured is because you’ve got canine way. So why don’t we think about restoring the wear on the front teeth and then we look at the back. So suddenly a patient that just was expecting to have a crown on a single molar is now walking out, having a. composites of veneers or crowns to treat the way. And I learnt that from the then that is one of the biggest things that it taught me was look at the mouth as a whole and it articulates the system as a whole and not I get it on the tooth.
[00:38:15] I get it. And I think we both know a bunch of full mouth dentists who do that. But that’s an interesting sort of aside. If you’d broken lingo CASPA, would you?
[00:38:39] If it was if I stop doing it,
[00:38:42] Then, yeah, because he can sell us.
[00:38:49] Think is an unfair question as to what nationality this is, because it’s not you, is it? Is it is a 50 year old guy who, you know, is going going down a particular car.
[00:39:01] Yeah. And look,
[00:39:02] I’m not saying that every patient walks out with a full mouth rehab. I’m just saying they open my eyes. And it was great that they did that because it makes my guests stay in practise more enjoyable. I like working things out. I like finding out the reason why something’s not working or why something of my work is failed. I like understanding. It was quite funny because I lecture F.D. quite a lot because I’m a VTE trainer and I did a study, I think it was last year and I always do the anterior and posterior crowns day for the vets. And I put a picture, I had a picture of my first crown as an associate and I put it on the screen and I said to them, I mean, there was nothing like what I’m doing now. And I said to them that this print is on the screen is overprepare. This tape is over. Tapered shape. Margins is not great at today’s standard, but everyone has to start somewhere. And I said of having said that with the knife, that it is that crown is still in place six years later. So it just goes to show that you can get a crown to fit onto that and it will probably be OK anyway. The next day I went to practise the bloody crown fall off
[00:40:29] And I come up against it. But yeah,
[00:40:36] I think yeah, it’s I like teaching and I like studying. I figure out why things are not working.
[00:40:44] Tell me about what you were going to say about your dad and shadowing him.
[00:40:49] So again, I’ve been lucky to you know, he’s been a great mentor of mine. My mum has been fantastic as well. My mum’s a great communicator. She’s worked in general practise. Thirty five years. She’s retired now, but she taught me how to not to to talk to patients and how to respect patients and just, you know, listen to my my is a really good communicator, but that’s always been very clinical. And having him in the practise is great support. But honestly, you don’t actually talk to each other. You know, he’s in his room. I’m in my room. We’re both on our laptops at lunch, doing emails or talking to the staff. You rarely actually get an opportunity to sit down and talk. And he will always he won’t mind me saying this. He will always put his students in front of me because they’re paying him.
[00:41:47] So if
[00:41:48] It means that he’s got a mark on their cases or reply to a WhatsApp, who are
[00:41:53] His students? What are what is he
[00:41:56] Is his lead tutor, the employer diploma osseous London.
[00:42:00] So he has a
[00:42:02] He has a town hall of delegates on the implant course. The you know, he has to mentor and he yeah. It’s honestly, it’s one of those things that people say, oh, you’re so lucky, you got so much help. But I’ll put my hand up if I did. I just say I’m lucky I’ve had help is actually not the case because you don’t actually get to speak to each other
[00:42:24] Is really you know, you’re only in a practise. You often you don’t speak to the other dentist, you know, because when it’s a lunch time is when if you’re busy
[00:42:35] And the staff is the only time that we can catch up with our admin.
[00:42:38] Yeah. Yeah. So what about this? I mean, I guess that you’ve been doing with annual just
[00:42:45] So I got this come about.
[00:42:48] I got roped into that last year.
[00:42:50] He’s one of my favourite people. He’s one of my favourite people in the whole wide world.
[00:42:53] So I can understand I can
[00:42:56] Understand how it could happen.
[00:42:57] He’s he’s a great teacher. He’s very passionate and he likes other people. He likes to see other people do. Well, yeah. Which is lovely. It’s a lovely trait to have some but a lot of respect for him because he’s happy to work with you to get better at your job. So last year we went into lockdown and I think maybe we closed the practise eighteenth of March. Twenty twenty. You know, we were scared, you know, no one knew what was going on. Cleo said you had to close. We were thinking. Where’s the profits going to get its money from? So it’s a bit of a scary time and we we all had three months of work, so I got a phone call from Nick Setit, you know, Nick Clever Dental. So I also work there and I don’t know if you know, but I’m buying into that practise. Yeah. So I’m going to be owner of Square Mile with the consent of the associate at that time Square Mile. And Nick said to me, look, Aneel wants us to do this exam. Are you up for it, and I just literally finished the implant diploma in the mail and then I said to myself, I’m not going to do any more studying. And he said, oh, come on, you know, you’ve got all the knowledge it will be up there. And I was like every bulletin on their exam. Then I got a phone call from Anel saying, I’ve heard you’ve told Nick you’re not going to do it. He said, you’re going to jump around and cut me a break. I need to have a race done too much studying and I want to enjoy lockdown. You know, I’ve never had three months of what
[00:44:40] I wanted to do that I’ve never done. I want to I want to be a gardener. So he goes, you can do your gardening another time.
[00:44:49] Just come onto the garden so that Magids is the membership. An advance journal, Dental Surgery, Osseous Edinborough. And you can only sit the exam if your minimum five years qualified and is basically a qualification of four dentists that want to advance their skills and knowledge and prove to people that you’re basically an advanced practitioner. So you’re not a basic level. You’re an advanced level in general practise, but you’re not a specialist. So and that’s again, what I wanted to be. I want I knew I wanted to be a generalist in practise and I wanted a recognition for that. I guess I wanted more or less off my line. Now, I don’t know.
[00:45:38] You know, it’s getting a bit ridiculous,
[00:45:41] But I like the idea of the exam and what it was about. And again and it was a lovely guy. And he explained the reasons why the exam or examination process would suit me. So we formed a little study club myself. Nick, Sanjay, Elain, you know, we’re we’re all alike. We’ve got similar in our passion towards dentistry. So we Formula Study Club and we started revising during lockdown. We all flew to Edinburgh in September last year and we sat the exam again. That was tough. It was a new exam. We are the second cohort to take it ever. Only one person had ever passed the exam.
[00:46:23] What was it? What kind of exam essays exam is?
[00:46:26] It was. And yeah, Vivas in Britain. It was, it was tough. Really, really tough examination process. Again, it’s one of those Vivas where. The examiner just looks at you, and if you’re not saying the right thing, they’re just like they did not the head look down
[00:46:48] Is one of
[00:46:49] Those process. But, you know, we we got through it ended up passing. And again, I’ve been thankful enough to be asked to go back as an examiner for that qualifications. So, yeah, it’s a great exam. It makes you understand dentistry a bit better. I’ve already said, you know, it’s not going to make you amazing clinically, but you will look at the patient as a whole and is learning about their medical problems and understanding how that affects their teeth. Again, I know in practise. So that helps.
[00:47:23] I’ve got to hand it to you, man, because, you know, all these times, I mean, you’ve been out for drinks or dinner or whatever, and I just had you down as the fun guy. You know, he never really mentioned any of his
[00:47:38] Prav. Prav always says on this podcast, you talk to people you’ve known for 15 years. You find out a whole lot of stuff about Libya. Yeah, I’ve got I’ve got to hand it to you. Like, not not not defining yourself by all of that.
[00:47:52] I think I
[00:47:54] Yeah. I’ve always liked to work hard and play hard. I think getting those qualifications, it’s nice to look back and think, you know, I have worked hard to get there and anyone can do it. It’s just going to put you put your mind to it and it will make you a better dentist. And like I said, I go into work, I enjoy. I got a great team around us both practises, you know, at Brickfield’s. You know, my dad is still got his nurse. She’s been nursing with my dad since he was 16 years old. She’s now fifty two. Wow. And it’s not a practise where, you know, you think, well, it’s not like an old practise. We’ve modernised it. We’ve got problems. Can we got trios. We were combing CT scan is we’ve recently got a rehab on the practise. And, you know, we’ve always tried to keep up with the latest technology, latest materials. We you know, I’m a great believer and I love the brand of enlightened. I think, you know, I’m not just saying this because you’re on here, but you’ve got something really good going there. And I believe in the brand. So when when we became a regional centre of excellence, I was proud to do that. And, you know, I work in ethics. A lot of people won’t want to if it goes hand in hand with the area that we live in. I’m working, but I like nice stuff. I like also nice things at home and holidays. And I think that having a practise like Brickfield’s and now Square Mile, I’m getting to a point where I’m sort of I’m comfortable. I’m happy with what, you know, how to achieve this.
[00:49:43] Let’s talk about the practise principle as opposed to, you know, the clinician. Yeah. What are you bringing, for instance, to I know you’ve made a big change in Brickfield’s, right? I mean, you’ve been responsible for much of the sort of the marketing side of it. And so tell me tell me, what would you bring to that side? Does that come naturally to do you feel like, you know, being the boss is something you like being?
[00:50:09] I think a lot of people I’m not I’m not great at business. I never have. And I think if I was quite a business, I wouldn’t be a dentist. So it’s in dentistry. I think it’s very hard to be excellent clinically and also an excellent practise owner or principal. I think it’s very hard to do both because both require time. So I decided to go down the clinical because again, I love working with my hands, I love my job and OK, I could go and go the opposite way. And I own twenty practises and I wouldn’t have that of a crown ever again in my life or feeling ever again. But I actually love doing clinical dentistry, so I wanted to get into practise ownership just because the fact that I wanted to always take over my dad’s practise, which is his baby, there’s an element, there’s element of like legacy there. And of course and I really want to take that to the next level. He’s done a a great start. The last sort of three, four years. I’ve been really involved in the business of marketing and looking at the figures and getting a team on board.
[00:51:23] So I’ve done a lot with that. And then we’re square mile. We’ve we’re very good clinically there because you got Sanjay, Nick Lane, Paul and myself, I do think is one of the best clinical teams in London. Yeah. In conditions there, however, the marketing, the branding is not correct there, and that’s something that needs to be sorted out. So and the guys understand that. And that’s why I’m coming on board, because I do think that place has got something special about it. The locations is fantastic. The the the work the Sanjay does is unbelievable. You know, one of the best dentists in the UK and, you know, his work is absolutely sublime. So it’s great to be a part of that. So I’d rather, Sanj, just focus on clinical and I myself and Nick focus on running the business, but tracing at the brand that we want it to be because the location and there was a square in London is brilliant. And the I actually actually
[00:52:31] Quite love the shape of that building as well, you know what I mean? It’s got
[00:52:34] A lot of going
[00:52:36] On. Stage is all glass. Yeah, architecture. The architecture is really nice, but it needs a revamp. So, yeah, that’s what we’re going to do. And I guess you asked me what I’m like as Principal Blunt’s. Are you. Yeah. If you ask the team members what I just cut to the chase and it’s not me being rude, it’s just I haven’t got time to sit there and mollycoddle, you know, you just if that’s the job you get on, you do it. And I want to email it in the day telling me you’ve done it and oh, that
[00:53:13] I’m really surprised. I’m really surprised. You say, Mama, I’m
[00:53:16] In a life. I thought you’d be the
[00:53:18] Touchy feely kind of boss
[00:53:21] Are really kind of
[00:53:23] Laid back and some approaches. But I’m also a little bit cutthroat here. And, you know, if you haven’t done something right and it’s not again, it’s not me trying to be nasty or rude. It’s just I want the best for the team. I want the best for the practise. Nick is great at that. Nick is a great people person. He wants to be friends with everyone. He’s got great personality, you know, so I think made him quite a good combo. So he can be the airy fairy.
[00:53:55] Yeah. And I’ll
[00:53:56] Be right. You’re not cutting the mustard.
[00:53:59] Yeah. I mean, me and Sanjeev, that means that you’ve seen my sancha. We have you know, I want to be everyone’s friend. Yeah. And and I you know, it’s interesting. Yeah. Because it’s quite hard being the other side of that as well. Yeah. Because, you know, I’m like sure to everything, whatever anyone says, I’m like sure. Yeah, of course. You know,
[00:54:20] I’ve got a
[00:54:21] Little, I’ve got a little dream going on that it’s like the best place in the world to work or whatever. And that’s like my number one my my number one thing. Right. And you know, he’s he’s running a business
[00:54:31] And you’re a Yes man.
[00:54:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if it was up to me, Daudier, I would have people pick pick their own holidays. Yeah. It would do whatever you want, you know. Like really. I want that. I want.
[00:54:45] Oh that’s nice. And I think like I said, like with Dave and with Dental Circle as the two characters to bounce off and. Yeah. And that just creates maybe harmony in the business. And that’s what you need.
[00:54:57] Yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting man, because you’ve got this whole clinical side going. Yeah. And you’ve, you were brought up in the world of Dental practises. So I mean by osmosis you would have gotten. That’s a good question. How much did you get by osmosis clinically? And then we’ll move on to business,
[00:55:19] I you know, my V.T. Dino, Sam, Rodia and Parrish, so my VTE Shriner’s, they own quite a few practises, almost like a mini corporate ethics. And it was quite funny because it was my first day as being FDA or VTE in the first practise. I worked after leaving uni. And Sam, like you said, you in the first day he was he was literally like, I mean, I don’t need to be here because he was a dentist.
[00:55:54] He was like, look, I’ve got too many
[00:55:56] Practises to deal with. It’s like you just bring your parents. And one part of me thought, I don’t think that child is supposed to be like that.
[00:56:08] But the other part
[00:56:09] Of me thought, well, actually is right.
[00:56:11] He’s right, you know.
[00:56:13] So if there was ever a clinical problem, I’ll just go home and ask my parents. So, yeah, I did. I learn a lot of clinical scenarios and situations from that. And the business side, my dad’s always been very much about the time we have. You know, we have a great team of Brickfield’s. They’re so loyal. We’ve only only because of me. We’ve recently just employed a couple new members of staff. But I think we have a team of 20 now and most of them are at least seven or eight years have been there. So we’ve got thirty five years for a nurse. We’ve got twenty years for a manager, fifteen years for another manager, ten years for a receptionist. So I think that says a lot about the business. When you have people that say we don’t have a high turnover of staff at all people,
[00:57:11] How many how many chairs is it. How many. Oh, six dentists and specialists.
[00:57:19] Well, we don’t have so we don’t have specialists in theory. We’ve got my dad who’s restorative or so and implants. You got myself who’s restorative and implants. You’ve got Mittel who is no Nakato, my sister who’s perio. And we have three dentists doing Invisalign and general dentists. We’ve got my F.D., which I get every year. We’ve got a therapist, we’ve got five fogginess and we have two trainee Dental nurses and we’ve probably got about another three or four qualified nurses. Three of our nurses are very radiography and is kind of trained. So, yeah, you know, we have we have a really good team.
[00:58:05] I believe that sounds that sounds like a fun Christmas party. Like how many how many people are you in total. I think
[00:58:11] About twenty.
[00:58:13] Yeah. Oh in total. Twenty. Yeah.
[00:58:15] Total twenty or twenty one. Twenty two. So yeah this is good fun and it’s like I say it’s enjoyable. You want to go somewhere. I just enjoy working. You don’t want to go in stressed. You want to go, the nurses are going to look after you and, and stuff is going to get done. So I always say to people spend a lot of time with your nurse, you know, they are your you know, your right hand. And if you train them well and you get them work in the way that you want to and you respect them and you treat them well, it will make your day in practise because it’s a stressful job. And, you know, you want someone, they support you. And that person is going to give you support day in, day out. It’s going to be your nurse.
[00:58:57] Yeah. So listen, Prav isn’t here, but but we always mean Prav always ask everyone about their conigliaro because, you know, we tend to we tend to hide clinical errors in medicine. Generally, when I say hide, it’s not that it’s not an open culture. It’s on the open culture of let’s talk about mistakes, but it’s going to take me through clinical errors, which whichever way you want to look at that, the things you’ve learnt from those clinical areas, clinical errors.
[00:59:29] So I guess there is one, actually.
[00:59:36] I guess there’s two things that that there’s obviously more, but there’s two that probably stick out that I think will help other people. And I also learn from so myself. The first one was a extraction of a lower right for root. And I took the x ray as a new patient emergency and I had time and I say the tooth needs to come out. I’m restorable. Let’s just take it out. So the patient said, OK, that’s not a problem. You know, if you know me, tooth out. So namedrop. And I’m starting to Longsight around the roots, and I slip and I slip into the floor of the mouth and suddenly we get quite a big bleed and I obviously panicked. I must have only been about two years qualified.
[01:00:38] Had you done your surgery job at this point?
[01:00:40] Yeah, I had done neurosurgery at that point for sure.
[01:00:43] Calm your calm. That’s what you’re
[01:00:44] Saying, isn’t it? I was I was I panicked
[01:00:48] In the fact that I’m not protected by the hospital now
[01:00:52] Because I’m in general
[01:00:56] The NHS is not going to protect me. So I slipped and I caused quite a deep cut. I just said to the patient, you know, I’m really sorry. This is what happened. I put my hands up and I said, look what I need to do, suture. I just need to stitch it. So I didn’t know what the flow of the mouth and I suture. There are haemostasia, there’s no bleeding. And I saw the patient back for review. She wasn’t very happy, obviously, even though, you know, I thought I handled it quite well. I rectified it, but she wasn’t happy. I understood that because I brought back for a review and she said to me, she said openly admit, you know, I know there was a mistake. You slip the sharp instrument, you cut the floor. My mouth, it was quite sore for a couple of weeks. It seems to have healed now and it’s okay. But just to let you know, I don’t want to come back and see you again because I’ve lost the trust in you. And that’s what she actually said to me. So it was quite that it. But I also see where she’s coming from because I’ve enjoyed her. I’ve enjoyed her and I shouldn’t have done. And I guess the learning point from that is clinically always, always have a finger support. Yeah. If you, Sillett, go into your own hand, not the patient. So it’s I’ve learnt from that.
[01:02:23] I’m not writing an article on how to use Lassiter’s afterwards because I should have had a thing support. I didn’t. And that was the reason why I end up slipping. I dealt with a problem, but the patient decided not to come back. And I guess that helped me a little bit because we take things like that personally and that’s just the way that we are. So I guess that was one thing. And then the second case that comes to mind is a case is still ongoing. And this is a patient that I’ve been treating now for. I would say Caryatid two and a half years, and he came in, it was a three unit fixed fixed bridge that he had previously and he had a recession and one of the abutment teeth and he got to be sensitive. He didn’t like the aesthetics of it because it had an old metal metal metal crown. So I said, look, easy, cut it off. I’ll make you a new one. Zirconia. There won’t be any metal in it. It will look good job done. Two appointments. And before I actually booked him for the treatment, well, I booked him in and then he started calling back. He rang reception. He sent emails and he said, I mean, I don’t think you’ll give me the right information about the treatment. I’m I’m a little bit he basically is questioning what I was advising. And I said to him, look, you just need a new bridge.
[01:03:57] There’s there’s no other way I can put some guy see or composite or Dental in bonding agent over the exposed omentum. But it’s going to be short lasting. It won’t look great. I’ll just take your brush off, make anyone. So he kept emailing and ringing and, you know, you get a bad vibe from a patient. It was one of those. And I was so thankful for that point that I hadn’t started because he was really, really questioning what I was going to do on the 28th. And I just really had a bad vibe. So what I said to him was, look, you obviously don’t trust me. I said that to him, said, you don’t trust me. I was frank with him. And I said, look, I think you should go and see my dad, get a second opinion or go through the practise, get a second opinion. If it’s easier for you to come ACTC, absolutely fine. He’ll give you an unbiased opinion because I don’t need to make three unit bridge. If you want it, I’ll make you happy. I just want to help the patient. So he went to my dad. My dad saw him inspect the teeth and said, yeah, look, I just need a new bridge. It’s the only way to do it. And, you know, because my dad’s got grey hair, he’s lost his hair up here.
[01:05:14] Yeah. He always respects the older person.
[01:05:18] And they say me is like the young dentist. It’s just telling him he needs a three, four thousand pound bridge. How much that he paid. Yeah. And my dad came out of that appointment and he said to me, I mean, I don’t know what you’re saying.
[01:05:30] He’s a lovely guy. Cracklin like the bridge Bob’s your uncle will be done.
[01:05:37] So I said, Oh, Dad, you’ve saved. You obviously told him. You told me he’s the right patient. I just don’t have a good vibe, easterlies. I just need a new bridge. So Buchtmann took the cut of the bridge the 28th Payman some nice time. Prix’s made the bridge, came back for review, didn’t like it. The the shape politely. He didn’t like the fiddling with his tongue effect. This speech, the contact points were too tight. The take a position to leave you the Pontic was not the right shape. The sensitivity was still there. So everything that you could pick up that was wrong with the Dental treatment. That’s what he was telling me. And I gave my honest opinion. If I could improve on it, I will cut it off and he’ll be in next week. I’ll redo it. But I said to him, look, this I believe is good treatment. I you know, I don’t see majorly what else I can change with this because I’m not happy, not happy. So I, I said to him, look, go away for another couple of weeks if you want to remake remake. It came back for another review a couple of weeks later. I don’t like it. Everything’s wrong with it. Sasselov Then the remake it. I said, do you want a copy of your original bridge? Because you had that one for twenty five years. I just improved the proportions of the teeth to make it more aesthetically pleasing. But if you want uneven incisal edges and you just want your old bridge back but renewed, do you want me to copy your old one? Because I’ve got the original model. He said, yeah, actually can you just copy that? So I made a I cut the old bridgework off zirconia bridgework
[01:07:32] And yeah, that was fun.
[01:07:35] And then I got a copy of the originals, got the labs to scan the model and they made for me a new Zucconi operation, exactly the same shape as the model. So this is less of our ninety five percent accurate because there’s always going to be some discrepancy, but it’s ninety five percent. It’s what he had fitted it, not happy emails, phone calls, the shapes wrong. I don’t like the feeling on the back of my tongue. I said to him, this is a copy of your approach. Ninety five percent accurate. I can’t do anything else. Said I’m not happy, so I cut it off again.
[01:08:23] This is the second
[01:08:25] Time I’ve cut it off. I got love made today. My temps made. And I said, right, I’m going to leave you in temps now for three to six months on adjusted temps to the point where you’re happy. And then I’m going to copy that. And then then it has to be what you like. So I got him in Payman. My temps copied the originals shape to adjust the occlusion, checked his speech and saw his alleged length lip line, small line Pontic everything in Payman my shell temps. He went away for three to six months and he came back and said. I’m happy,
[01:09:10] I am happy. My I could not believe it. I was always like, this is crazy.
[01:09:16] I can’t believe you got to a point. So I said, right, all I need to do now is take a trail scan over your 10 feet in your mouth and I’ll send that to the lab. I’ll read tidy up the 28th and the preps, but the majority of the work and will overlay the two still fails to make the new farmers accountable. As per your peer, my terms. Do you consent for me to do that? He said Ammit. I’m happy with the temporaries. All that great comes in for prep day. This must be the fourth time I’ve taken these bridge off right upper left to devitalised this.
[01:09:59] Oh oh. This is just.
[01:10:04] I’m so sad. I’m so sad.
[01:10:06] So Uplifter is now non-volatile for verifiers.
[01:10:13] I was left to one of the abutments.
[01:10:16] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So I
[01:10:18] Was uplifter. Non-Volatile one. The Abutments. And it’s a sclavos canal.
[01:10:24] Oh, may
[01:10:27] I have practised dentistry for 10 years. Yeah, but you’re giving me PTSD is coming back as those nightmare situations.
[01:10:35] Ok, so what. Will you do in the end? You do this
[01:10:40] In there in my outfit with the mask on the girl who goes in a proper sweat,
[01:10:47] Ok, because I don’t know how to do anything and I start drilling
[01:10:55] Into the tooth open and dress. I can’t find this canal.
[01:10:59] I cannot find this canal just
[01:11:02] Because my endo guy is not there at this point. I just need to open and dress it to get him out. I couldn’t find the canal.
[01:11:10] I’m so sad.
[01:11:12] So then I you get suspicious and I’ve done so now. And one of the abutment teeth, which is not ideal for a bridge. Right. The two is already a thin roof in itself, so I haven’t got a lot of resistance fracture, whatever. So I make the final bridge from the pier. My temps are fitted it two weeks ago. I’ve already had an email say it’s not right.
[01:11:40] Oh man. Wow. This is now the fourth
[01:11:48] Bridge I’ve made of a two and a half years. He’s been in temporaries for six months of adjusted the speech, the occlusion, the Pontic, the length, the polite to shape the contact points, the embracive spaces. And I’ve scanned the template and he told me he was happy, affected the final one, which I believe is a copy of it. He said it’s not a copy is different, but I physically have got the labs Ovalau overlay. The two are still files and ml the framework and make it exactly the same shape.
[01:12:23] So it seems like when when when a hygienist removes the crap of the back of your teeth for a day, it feels rough. And and then. And then it handles itself. Right. I know he’s he’s just like zooming into that moment. Right.
[01:12:37] I know. I know. This is so I think the learning point from her is
[01:12:43] The instincts of the beginning.
[01:12:45] And don’t listen to your dad. But yeah,
[01:12:51] Go with your gut instinct because if you are not feeling it, don’t start the case because it just really isn’t worth it. I think as dentists, we’ve met a lot of people over the years, patients, colleagues and whatever, and you learn how to you know, you understand very quickly what the character of the patient is like. So I think you have the learning point is just always go with your gut because you got to know me. Right. And I wish I never, ever started that case. Of course, it probably cost me just in lab, just in lab fees. It costs me four or five thousand pounds worth of lab fee. Yeah. And I’m trying to get it right for the patient. I never want an unhappy patient. I guess there’s some dentists out there that are probably given up halfway through. It said there’s no more that I can do for you. But I’ve tried and I’ve tried and I’ve tried because I really want to make you happy. But you can’t make everyone happy. And that’s the learning point. We you know, you just can’t make everyone happy. So. So, yeah, I’ll have to I don’t know if I’m kind this off again or whether I just need to to move practise. I want I
[01:14:14] I think as you get as you get older and more experienced, you start to take this sort of thing a bit more in your stride. Right. Because you do because I haven’t been exposed to this that sort of pain for such a long time. You going through that really, really hurt the hell out of me, man. I have never going to be a dentist again. I it because I’m not as good as you either. Because know what I have that I’d have to like, send them to ALIL and pay all of his specialist fees as well.
[01:14:41] Yeah. Yeah. I think I
[01:14:43] Have become more you know, if a patient does try to get a little bit shirty or doesn’t you know, um, you know, I’m not going to take crap, you know, I’m not going to be bullied. And again, I think they say that I look at my F.D. and I look at the way that some of the patients talk to her. And I’m shocked that but I think they see a little bit of weakness or lack of confidence there and patients will pick up on that. I spent a lot of time with the FDA talking about communicating with a patient. And, you know, you want to win them over. You want that patient to go out and sing the praises, of course. So if you can really convey. That’s difficult. I’m a big believer of that, that
[01:15:25] Have become your biggest fan, isn’t it?
[01:15:28] Because a lot of time it’s just nerves and not actually a horrible person. It’s just the situation clinically. They don’t like the smell, the scared of the noises. They’re anxious about the injection and back. But I think
[01:15:42] That changes people. We take it in stride because, you know, we’re in there every day. But my dad’s about to go for a spinal operation. Right. And, you know, it’s it’s a worry. It’s a problem. We’re all stressed about it. You know, he’s in his 80s that goes into his three spines and stick the bits together and all that. And, you know, you’re stressed, you know, and we know people are stressed at the dentist. So you’re right. No, I’m sure someone is. But most people most patients aren’t being intentionally short or anything like that. But I bet your mum’s your mum and dad are ideal for talking to you about these sort of problems. Right. You know, they see themselves.
[01:16:28] Yeah, my mum has got a bit of a reputation,
[01:16:36] Yeah, she’s lovely. I’ve learnt a lot from them, but I’ve learnt a lot from the courses.
[01:16:42] And what are your plans going forward? What do you think?
[01:16:46] You think the next big project is Square Mile? Yes. You know, Brickfield’s is great where a place where we can, you know, we’re comfortable and where, you know, we’re doing well there and enjoy the dentistry square mile with the next project challenge. Yeah, the challenge. I love the challenge and I see something special there. So I think we can turn that into a great practise. And again, clinically, it’s a great, great team. So I think if we got the the issue there in London is there’s a finite amount people that can afford that type of dentistry, because if it gets the nitty gritty, you know, and you’re talking about charging five hundred pounds from anybody composite, if a patient needs just five fillings, you can imagine how expensive that is for them.
[01:17:37] There’s a lot of people with who’ve got the money for that in London. Yeah.
[01:17:41] But because of competition also.
[01:17:43] There are. There is. But, you know, you don’t need that many patients. I would I wouldn’t worry yourself too much about that, you know, but if you can provide the you know, I was going to say, you know, you’re a fan of high end stuff like your your your Novikov boy.
[01:18:00] You know,
[01:18:03] You should you know, I was talking Robbie, Robbie Hughes was saying, I want to be the Louis Vuitton of teeth, but you should be the Novikov.
[01:18:11] Ok, I think I’ve calmed down a bit since the baby. When I do, I went I went to I went
[01:18:20] To Novikoff with Nick Saxbe. Do you know this story, though? I went to Nick’s. I went to Novakovic. Nick said he and the wives. And I was I was just getting to know Nick. We didn’t really you know, we were we were friends. But I think the first time she’d been out together for like a meal with the couples. And this is a point where I’d actually been to Novikoff. I was I got another call once a week
[01:18:47] Where everybody knows, you know, and I
[01:18:50] Got to know the manager and the waiters. And that was me. Acting is the big bollocks.
[01:18:58] I well,
[01:18:58] It’s not a call with Nick and his wife. And Matty was there. And we sat down and the waiter came over and he goes, I mean, nice to see you again. We have the usual. And Nick says he’s like, who is this guy?
[01:19:13] So I said, Yeah, we’ll have the usual.
[01:19:17] And he goes, I mean, I’ve actually you know what? I’ve got something special for you today. So he must have mug written on my forehead because
[01:19:27] He said, I’ve got a
[01:19:28] Lobster it and
[01:19:30] It will sue you
[01:19:31] For down to a tape. And I said, let’s have the lobster do half of
[01:19:36] It and grilled half of it tempura.
[01:19:39] So he brings this lobster in and we’re all looking at this thing is ridiculous, right? Sort of a bus and he puts it on the table and we’re enjoying the meal. We have a few drinks and then we get the bill at the end.
[01:19:55] Oh, my. The lobster
[01:19:59] Was four hundred and thirty pounds
[01:20:01] Over. So I thought you were going to save all that, but
[01:20:04] I lost it.
[01:20:08] So I had a bill later in Dubai where, you know, I was having so much fun. The guy would say, I’ve got a real special tequila one. There was smoky and I was like, yeah, I’ve got yourself know, we had like, you know. Five, six shots and the sounds turned around to me when it’s going to be a bit expensive, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, of course, buy it. It’s going to be expensive. How much do you reckon it’s going to be? And I was like, there was five of us. I said, it’s going to be like this is going to be like fifteen hundred. And then the the just before the bill came, the manager came. Anyway he went, this restaurant is always completely, fully booked, but we always hold some tables back for VIP. But he when he said p, I suddenly twigged
[01:20:58] What’s going to happen here.
[01:21:01] Suffice to say I was wrong, that it was much more expensive than that. Each one each one of those tequilas was one hundred pounds. Each shot. Yeah. So when we were going to have one yourself, each shot was like six hundred, he was just doing it. So we totally got that.
[01:21:18] So the next night you went to Leaders, but
[01:21:22] I was surprised you haven’t got more storeyed Novikov stories that because Boycott’s is like that isn’t it?
[01:21:27] You know, I mean, I think there’s a few stories that you can’t really tell on here, but
[01:21:32] I think
[01:21:34] We do like to have a good time. And you’re right. I do I do like to do other nice things in life, whether it be a nice holiday. I mean, the best holiday we went on. And I’m I’m so lucky that we got to do is actually my honeymoon. And we went on safari to Masai Mara and that was, you know, that was just such a great experience. And we had a lovely hotel and. Yeah.
[01:21:59] What did you guys meet?
[01:22:02] So me and Marty, it’s random, I met her in Tiger Tiger in London.
[01:22:10] What, you pulled her classy? Well, I was with my boys domestiques shout out a few words outside the car. And I think she looks to me like, who’s this creep? But a source for that.
[01:22:27] And then actually, we were both studying dentistry, but we didn’t know. Amazing. Oh, yeah. You know, it started from there. And I knew after a while that she was the one. So I proposed in Dubai and we got married in Florence a couple of years ago. And yeah, we just had our first baby three months ago. So. So how does that feel? Yeah, she’s been a great support to me. And, you know, again, I would be I wouldn’t be where I am without her either.
[01:22:57] How does it feel to be at that?
[01:22:59] I think every that size, this size is amazing,
[01:23:03] It is is it is.
[01:23:09] It’s a strange one because I miss him and I miss my son because I’m a work, I wish I could be at home and I love coming home and spending time with him. Is it just such a great feeling? And I said to you before that when I before I had this conversation, when I was in the labour room, I was in bed so, so emotional. And I’ve got such thick skin. And, you know, I’ve I haven’t had a rough upbringing, you know, that I went to private school, but I’ve experienced quite a few things with. So I’m probably wrong, you know, some not so nice people when I was younger, hanging out with the wrong crowd. So but, you know, even though I’ve got this maybe tough exterior, I think, you know, having a child is just a love that you can never describe. It’s just completely different. That’s the only way I can describe it and can describe it. And the I think that I’m for saying that it is the truth.
[01:24:11] No, no, there is I mean, it’s it’s, you know, biochemically that way anyway. But but also, I think, you know, it makes you a better person being at that. I mean, I think yours is a bit too young for that so far.
[01:24:25] I mean. Yeah, I mean, the new dad mode.
[01:24:28] Yeah. But it does make you feel better, but there’s just no
[01:24:31] Getting away screaming. I’m going to my little shit.
[01:24:35] Well, you know, the thing is, you end up having to be a better person, a role model, you know, than you know. You can be going to self-destruct. Right. But but when you have a kid watching you do that, that sort of tempts you. Yeah. It’s been lovely to have you, but I’m good
[01:24:53] And I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. I’m going to
[01:24:56] Finish it with Prav perhaps final questions. Even though Prav can’t be with us today, you’re you’re a bit too young, but you’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your loved ones around you. Or three pieces of advice that you’d like to give them.
[01:25:16] Can you order me a KFC
[01:25:23] Three piece of advice to my loved ones, I would say be honest. You know, and just treat others with, as usual things, treat others with respect. I think that’s so important that, you know, you you were trying to help others. People do. So I hope I can say this about myself. It’s only because a lot of people say about me, but people sound quite generous. I do love giving to people. So I think though I don’t know why, I just like doing it. So I think I would always say give to others where you can. I think that’s very important in lots of different aspects, whether it be education or just general life values and tips or financially, whatever it may be. But I think if you can give something to someone and always look out to help others, I think that’s a good trait to have. And the third bit of advice, other than be honest and give to others, I think now definitely be humble. I’ve been humbled after I said to you before we said it, I agree to the beginning. I was a little shit. And I’ve had Facebook messages about, you know, my my life on Instagram and things that I am I guess it seems to be Sharafi.
[01:26:46] I’ve had a lot like that.
[01:26:48] Tollman Yeah. Yeah. But I think I just had messages like that. So I think again, that takes you down a few pegs. There is no real need to to be like that. I have sort of matured over the years, so yeah, I can also be humble.
[01:27:05] The next one of Prav questions is you’ve got there very happy questions. You you’ve got you’ve got 30 days left. You’ve got your health.
[01:27:18] I guess
[01:27:22] One word. Yeah, that was
[01:27:28] That was the case, you
[01:27:29] You have
[01:27:31] Elaborated, but the one word answer was excellent. So it’s been really, really lovely. But I really I’ve really enjoyed it. And we need to meet up and have it delivered.
[01:27:46] Yeah. And thanks my it’s been I think what you’re doing is great. It’s good that we can chat about this stuff. I think hopefully there’s a few things in there that would help other people. Again, I’m always looking to inspire the new generation I see with the FDA come through. They can have a tough time this year because of covid. Yeah, I really have a lack of experience clinically and again communicating with patients. So they’re going to be a little bit lost. But I think, again, what you’re doing, hopefully with interviews like this and, you know, thanks again for having me on, but I just want to give a few tips to to other people. Hopefully they will find their own way. You don’t have to copy me. You don’t have to copy Chris. So you don’t have to copy. If you don’t have the copy, anyone, you find your own way of how you want to do it. And I think doors will open for you about it.
[01:28:38] Those are your three mentors, Dave, you and Chris. So what a lovely combination back. But it was lovely to have you. Lovely. Lovely to have you. Thank you so much for doing this.
[01:28:52] All right. Thanks. Bye. All the best
[01:28:55] Days is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole
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