The episode is a real who’s-who of UK dentistry. With more than half the year now passed (and what a year!) hosts Prav and Payman continue their look back at some of 2021’s greatest bits.

Among the highlights are thoughts on tax, the network effect, a candid look at a clinical mistake and much more.


“There’s always something you walk away with at the end of an episode…it’s definitely the most enjoyable part of what I do for work.” – Prav Solanki

In this episode

03.53 – David Ostaeyen
05.57 – Paul Palmer
10.13 – Fazeela Khan-Osborne
16.26 – Samir Patel
20.47 – Sandeep Kumar
27.02 – James Martin
31.41 – Darren Cannell & Andy Stafford
33.41 – Kish Patel & Jin Vaghela
43.13 – Hassan Maghaireh
47.16 – Sabir Sheikh
53.52 – Payman Sobhani
58.28 – Reena Wadia
01.02.13 – Rupert Monkhouse

About Prav Solanki and Payman Langroudi

Prav Solanki and Payman Langroudi are hosts of the famous and fascinating Dental Leaders podcast.

[00:00:00] This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just know skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of Ymir. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear. This is Dental Leaders,

[00:01:12] The podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging Leaders history. Your host’s Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:27] Welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast for this episode. This is Prav hasn’t been with me for a few months. We decided just to sit down together and and and go through some of the things we’ve learnt from the guests in the past few episodes since our famous Queen’s Speech episode that we had when Boris shut the whole country down. And, you know, some of this has been people who’ve we’ve known, some of them been people we haven’t known. What stood out for you Prav in that in this period between the last time we spoke and Christmas when there was that shut down till now, was supposed to that for you? I think to me there’s been an overt bit taken away from like what stood out in terms of individual stories and things like that. Much more to do with the overall feeling of returning back to normality with you. You know, the conversations I’m having with people, certainly when, you know, when it comes from a business perspective, was really stood out for me, has been this acceleration, right. This growth that a lot of practises and a lot of our clients are experiencing also how to deal with that and coping with that overwhelmed. I think what was really stood out is the people who grabbed that opportunity by the horns and run with it, making hay while the sun shines type scenario. And then the individuals or business owners who say, hey, this is too much, I need to calm down and step back from those opportunities.

[00:02:56] Right. And thus, you know, those are the two main camps that I’m seeing at the moment, people who are grabbing and running with it, and people who are just sort of saying, hey, this is too much, we’ll create a waiting list. We can’t cope with growth. We won’t scale. We’ll just deal with it. And they will be the same people maybe in 12 months time or whatever. We’ll be picking up the phone saying I need more patience. Yeah. Although, you know, the natural history of a practise can be many things, can’t it? It doesn’t have to be in a particular particular path. I mean, I hear what you’re saying because I hear stories of people who’ve taken taken whatever reserves they had or some people obviously did quite well from the overpayments over the lockdown period and have invested and grow growing. Their businesses mean growing their premises and and growing their marketing budgets. And I learnt that from my side. I can see the the bleaching and the composites side of it more clearly. I guess you’ve got a good view on the Invisalign, although the implants and all of that. But all of it seems to be going through the roof, not just high ticket dentistry. Right. So the big ticket items starting from the smaller big ticket items like GDP also. Right. Starting from around, say, three and a half or whatever people charge all the way up north of, you know, 30, 40 K for immediate loading implant dentistry.

[00:04:21] We’re seeing that going through the roof. Right. But just going back to what we said earlier, there is no right or wrong way of navigate in this scenario, OK? Because some people during, say, the lock down before this whole thing took off, I’ve actually had a reassessment of the life. Right. You don’t want to work as hard. Yeah, they’ve sat back and appreciated whether it’s time with their family taking their foot off the pedal, reducing their stress levels. And these opportunities come and they decide actively not to take it. I’m not saying that’s wrong. But then there’s the others who have got this almost like energetic growth mindset mentality who just say, hey, there’s an opportunity here. The sun is shining and it’s going to go down one day. I’m going to make the most of it. And we’re seeing we’re seeing from the patient perspective, I think we’ve spoke about this in the past, the the this overwhelming demand, an interest for patients wanting to spend money on their teeth. Right. Put things right. Whether it’s functional or cosmetic. And where is all this money come from? Is it the Furlaud fund? And we could argue that perhaps, you know, there’s been the fact that, you know, people haven’t been able to spend the money, go on holidays, blah, blah, blah, and they’ve accumulated some savings. But we’re seeing loads of older people. Right, retired people who are, you know, or pensioners and that sort of age.

[00:05:44] Well, you know, I don’t think their spending habits have changed much, but we’re seeing a larger influx of those people who are saying, you know what? I’m going to invest 15, 20, 30, 40 calientes now, and we’re getting less knows or we’re getting less maybe or less. I’ll think about it more. I’ll go for it. And in your business, you’re seeing record winning numbers, right? Yes. Through the roof is through the roof. I mean, if you told me we were going to be this busy now back in the shutdown period, I wouldn’t have believed you at all. But back to what you were saying. I think there has been any way to spend your money as well, Prav you literally flow out of it. If I was an older person, a 60 year old guy who’s got a bit of cash in the bank, whatever, haven’t been able to go to restaurants, haven’t been able to spend it on holidays, you know, you might even be putting big purchases like car purchases and things to one side in this period where, you know, you’ve been focussed at home. I think the home DIY kind of spend. I speak to people in that area who are doing very well, but also, you know, you haven’t got anywhere to spend the money. So probably where it is, there’s only there’s only so many capacity’s and digestives you can get through a home. And that’s not going to cost you a fortune, right? A lot of our own.

[00:07:00] So should we go through some of the episodes or should we now continue talking about this? Yeah, let’s let’s go through this. Since we did the which was it? I think it was episode sixty three. Sixty sixty four. Where. Bloody hell. Sixty four episodes. Does it seem like yesterday we started this right. Yeah. I mean I was in sixty four episodes. Right. But looking back it and say hey let’s go back to episode sixty four. So episode sixty five was with Nic and Sanjay Sethi. I mean Nic said to me, is this almost a newcomer because we’re getting older. But Sanjay said he was one of the first people who really inspired me in composites. It was before we were selling composites. We were only doing whitening systems at that point. And I clearly remember the first time I saw a composite that was in a completely invisible and completely polished was the lecture that he gave at, I want to say maybe two thousand four, 2003 around then really beautiful. And he really is one of the top dentists in the country, does a lot of implant work and at the Square Mile clinic that they’re both that they’ve been joined by a couple of our other other guests on the show, Elaine Moe and now Amit Patel as well. But I was really interested in and in the way that Nic was talking about how Sanjay mentored him into that practise and what he had to do in that practise just to just to make just earn his stripes, you know, before they sort of he’s gone off in his minimally invasive direction.

[00:08:45] So what do you think of them Prav you know them? Well, I don’t. But, you know, the one thing I’ll say is that, you know, brothers, brothers in arms and all the rest of it. Right. Being inspired by your older brother and working with your brother, the only the only parallel I can draw to that is me and Kailash. Right. And for those that have heard the episodes and those that have heard me speak, I think it’s pretty clear we’re like chalk and cheese. So if we were brothers in arms, working together in the same business, I can tell you there would be fireworks, right? It just wouldn’t work. We’ve got different values, different dynamics. And we love each other to bits. Right. But we couldn’t work together. And so so in this in this relationship, what did you notice from the did we have the situation where younger brother was looking up to Big Brother or what was the biggest difference really between them and you guys? This is a massive age difference between so a bit more like father and son than than brother and brother. I think Nic really always looked up to to Sanjay and, you know, what a great example to have for him. Essentially, for the first two years, maybe do everything

[00:09:57] I have to learn it the way Sanjay understood it, and I have to then obviously bring on what I knew from courses and learning and I was say the end those areas. I was doing everything that I did. And then before I started getting into surgery and implants, I suddenly thought to myself, well, I’d love to be a partner in this grandma one day. I mean, I love the practise dearly. It’s been such an instrumental part of my life. I love the team. I love everything about practise. And I thought, well, if I’m going to be a partner here, it doesn’t make sense to be exactly the same as Sanjay because Sanjay says he’s got his patient base for 20 years and it be exactly the same.

[00:10:38] And so we then have a good discussion.

[00:10:41] And I decided, well, I’m not going to go down the implants route, know never say never. Right. But Sanjay’s I’ve never I’ve got a good night with restorative dentistry. I’d like to think I can produce some nice results now, always learning.

[00:10:55] But for me to then get to that next level to where Sanjay’s surgically, that’s a whole nother career. And what Sanjay has developed with his handling of soft

[00:11:06] Tissues, it’s not just placing an implant in his vision or his handling of soft tissue is grafting.

[00:11:12] It’s such a niche that I think he’s so good. Why do I want to go down that path when he’s the man? He is the man. Let’s talk about Episode 66 with Max, Max, Max Basini bazoo, Quini Basuki. You know, when I’ve spoken to Max, right, I said, listen, your first name is really easy, Max. It’s my you know, I think it’s your Starbucks name. Right. And I sometimes you have my name right. But how do I how to pronounce the surname. Right. And he says, just think about zucchini and stick a bat in front of the rights of Basil Keaney. But, you know, a guy who’s got some serious Italian flair and has come from, you know, his early days, his background is, you know, learning how to sell businesses. I think he started off in in the health care, selling a gym right back in the early days and then moved on to dentistry. And the conversations I’ve had with this guy is that he really does know the buying and selling of practise business really well. And more importantly, he’s very, very much geared towards maximising value for clients. Right. He recently sold and I’m sure and he’s happy for me to say this, but he recently helped to sell and the most beautiful practise in Essex advanced Dental. Oh, yeah, both of our favourites, fair practise and human being. Right. What a great guy. Right. But, you know, he sold on this practise and I remember this conversation and, you know, and they would pick up the phone to me and he says, Prav, I think now is the time. And then and then we spoke numbers and he said it’s a pretty good number that I’m happy with that. And and we had the conversation.

[00:13:09] We said, look, should you hire somebody to sell? You practise or shouldn’t you? And my answer to that was, look, we don’t do this for a living. You do teeth. I do marketing, business coaching, whatever. Right. And you need a professional who does this day in, day out. And their value add is whatever number you’ve got sat on the table today, they need to elevate the whatever deal you’ve got on the table today. They need to elevate that and whatever their fee structure is, needs to be a no brainer. Yeah. And it’s it’s one percent. Right. It’s nothing nice in comparison to the big picture. It’s nothing. Right? Yeah. I think there’s a lot of people all he has to do is get two percent more for the practise and now it’s been worth it. Right. It’s absolutely nothing. And I think I come across and I have numerous conversations with people who were going or who are having conversations where the buyer has gone direct to practise on, OK, they’re a little bit wet behind the ears. They don’t know how. They’re not professional negotiators. They may think they are because they’re selling treatment every day or whatever. Right. But but I think it’d be very naive for somebody to sell their practise without at least speaking to a broker and seeing what’s possible. So when when a client comes to me and goes, you know, what is it worth me paying somebody to do this? No. One, they take away the pain and the unknowns of that. But number two, it’s a no brainer because whatever their fee structure is, they should be they should easily be able to earn that out in the price structure.

[00:14:43] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I like to say I have a good relationship with with most of the groups and the. Titian’s team and Yamane guys and ladies working in the groups when they see May involving involvement, my involvement instantly become aware that it’s going to be a tough negotiation and it’s not always the case if you go and approach them direct. Most of the time at Prav persona, we do this once in a lifetime that we said they practise and they will, and we only have one opportunity and they get an offer and then maybe think that’s the best and final and maybe they don’t. You know, they might be great clinicians by the grace and negotiating. I don’t know what buttons to push in my experience and my background. Obviously spying practises. So I know what buttons to push in order to increase the value. You know, what can improve evaluations and negotiation. I know we know what we can we can achieve. So sometimes we see an initial offer and it’s not just about the price, but also about the terms and the amount of the UK on the deferred basis. In terms of example, I can give you an example, which is quite exceptional, really. There was the practise in Buckinghamshire who came to us with an offer on a table for one point eight million.

[00:16:05] So I analysed the figures and then of course, we can talk about how we value and prices in a minute. And then I thought is a good offer, but I think we can improve on that offer a one point eight. And the way that you can improve is by creating a nice competitive tension, not just with that group by introduce either two or three potential buyers that you think that a good match. And we did so. So the consequently we started to get offers and the same group who offer one point eight and it was the best and final couple of months later they offered two point four. So obviously wasn’t the best and final. But then eventually the deal closed at two point seven, which I was very surprised by. I think with it, I think I’m pleased with what we did there and the clients will play. So you sold ultimately ended up selling to another group, not to the same group. So your one and a half percent save, I would say, is more than justified by involving someone like us that can introduce and bring to the table different groups and sometimes also trying to maximise on the current offer that you might have from from the same group.

[00:17:16] So even if you may deal with a corporate or a buyer, it’s still not too late to engage a professional like yourself.

[00:17:25] Now, it’s now obviously you need to trying to find the balance in not to upset the buyer, but in your best interest, you need to maximise your chances, your opportunity, and is probably once in a lifetime opportunity. And it’s an exciting time to sell your business. And you want to make sure that you, especially if you ended up working with the group, there is not a sentiment in the time in the way that you value that you got. So you need to make sure that you get the right value before you sell, realising it after by talking to your friends and say, actually, I could sell for more or my conditions could have been better. So you get to explore all avenues and make sure you get a good deal in terms of value and in terms of terms.

[00:18:10] So what’s not for me? I mean, if you remember, we had and the acting as well from Frank, their associates. But what stood out for me with Max was there was the thing he was talking about, like a beauty parade way of selling a practise, of bringing in lots of different interested parties and getting a better price for it that way, which was which is an interesting thing. And the other thing that you said, for every pound that you save, that can translate to seven pounds extra on the value of the nine or whatever, whatever online. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that starts becoming an interesting conversation. I mean, I’m speaking to now probably half a dozen of my clients who have reached that point where they’re ready to hang up their drills. Right. Or at least transition towards that point. And it’s funny they’re having conversations about should I put the staff wages up because it’s what I’ve always done. Right. But if I let’s let’s say the staff wages go up by. Ten grand. OK, I’ve I just lost. Eighty eight, yeah, yeah, I’ve just lost eight to 10 times that, yeah. My advice is. When you’re selling your business, the deal isn’t done until the money’s in your bank to carry on running that business as though you would be ruining it to grow it, because if that deal doesn’t go through and you’re building that excitement and that hope up to the point where you get to the last point and then the rug is pulled, there’ll be so many business decisions you would have made where at that point you’ll be better off.

[00:19:52] But you kept holding yourself back for that potential sale. Do you know of any stories where people sold their practise and then gave a bonus to their staff at that point? No, no, no. I don’t know any stories about that. But to be honest, I don’t know a lot of people who have sold their practise. I think I think the clients that I’ve been working with for sort of north of a decade, between 10 to 15 years are currently at that stage where they’re considering exit or working towards that or planning towards that or having those conversations. And so it’s all it’s all quite new to me. Right. I’m learning a lot along the way. And I think it’s very exciting and interesting, just the psychology that comes around. Except what does that mean? What does retirement mean? How does that affect your family dynamics? Right. Having, you know, meeting up. I met with Andy Moore and went to his house shortly after he sold and had some really interesting conversations with him about what, you know, you sit down and say, Andy, what’s it feel like now not to be the boss? OK, what does it feel like to have the extra lump sum sitting in your bank account, in the security and everything? And do you feel like you’ve achieved the dream? OK, and it’s really, really interesting conversations I had there where sometimes you know what you expect and the reality is quite different, you know? Yeah, I think.

[00:21:25] Well, Andy, Andy achieved the dream many years ago. The first that’s a very, very, very different you know, I’ll tell you I’ll tell you what Andy said. I’m sure you won’t mind. I won’t go into detail on everything. But, you know, he shared with me that you get to the point where you sell your business for for a sum that is life changing, OK? And your friends tell you, you know, when you sell the business by a drinka. Yeah, buy your dream house, yeah, yeah, do all these things go on an amazing holiday, right? We’re talking about Andy Moore. Here he goes. He goes to Necker Island on holiday every year. Yeah, he’s got a beautiful home. Yeah. A beautiful, beautiful home is the dream home. Right. And he’s had the dream castle. So so for him, it’s like, well, what’s next? But I think, you know, the one thing that I walked away from that conversation, he says he said he felt a sense of security for him, his family, his life, the hard work he put in.

[00:22:32] Yeah. For many generations and generations ahead. Absolutely. Absolutely. For those interested Episode 10 with Andy, Andy Moore, one of the best of whatever, both of our favourite people. And you know, it’s a good one to listen to Episode 10. Let’s move on to the next episode with the shoddy, shoddy, managerial, shoddy and interesting person. She I’m very much in touch with her now, but she did this very interesting thing where she started social media during lockdown and she didn’t have an Instagram account or not. Not a proper one. Not Dental one anyway, before before lockdown. And she certainly didn’t have a ticktock. And I guess she’s one of these sort of high achievers and she’s decided to overlook town to start making content and interesting Prav. The numbers are probably different now. But when when I spoke to her, her ticktock following was over one hundred and twenty thousand, but her Instagram was around twelve thirteen thousand and she was doing similar work for both goes to show the reach of the different platforms. She’s definitely now out there. But so interesting to see that within such a short period you can make a name on the platforms with a bit of focus. She lucked out a little bit with some of the sort of more, you know, with the way Tick-Tock works. If it’s a juicy headline, sometimes people follow it in the turkey teeth and the the one the pegs that they were showing and all of that and just the great conversation with the young dentist going places.

[00:24:07] I feel. I feel with Chardy. What do you think the future for her is? I think that, you know, she’s she’s one of those she’s taking it in her, taking the time, trying to do the jobs that she wants to do rather than what she needs to do. She’s working two days a week and focussing on the content side a bit more. And in the conversation, she said, look, I’ve got a practise in my head that I want to one day do. And, you know, what I’m interested in, though, is, you know, we own many small Makov when Kunal does his marketing, but he always asks who he is, go to Dental account, and generally less than half the room have a Dental Instagram account. And he’s like, oh, why don’t you should know. But what I’m interested in is in, what, a short period of time? I mean, look down a year ago. Yeah. And what a short period of time. You can make a massive impact here. If people find your content valuable, your valuable content. It’s not it’s not just about consistency, Stephanie. About consistency, but not but not only about consistency is about engaging with people.

[00:25:15] I think you have to spend enough time consuming the platform to learn what works, what doesn’t work, the trends. I think it’s important to jump on the trends and that kind of thing. But, you know, I found that I was spending like two or three hours a day on that anyway, so I might as well be creating because if you see enough tick tock videos, you’ll want to create one. If you see the same trends, you’ll think about your take on the trend. So, yeah, definitely. I don’t think

[00:25:41] I know this is a million dollar question,

[00:25:44] But

[00:25:44] What would you say makes a video go viral?

[00:25:49] Yeah, I’m OK.

[00:25:50] I’m asking you for the answer, but what would you say from what you’re learning?

[00:25:55] Yeah. So I think you see

[00:25:58] Title seems to work well.

[00:26:00] Do you see a title works very well. I think, you know, I think even I don’t think anyone fully understands how the platform works. So one video could go super viral, but another similar video could not say. I think a lot of it is down to luck and it’s about producing enough content consistently for one of them to inevitably go viral. But with me, to be honest, the first video that I thought had gone viral was 80000 views and then that the ultimate was the eight million views. But the crowd’s opinion is one. But I think you need to be divulging some sort of juicy information. You need to grab people’s attention. And it’s about, you know, with ticktock, it’s about retention of the viewer. So it’s about time. And how long they spent viewing that video, how many times they watch it, whether they send it to other people, how many people like it commented. That kind of stuff plays a big part in how viral that video goes. So, for example. That video is incredible video, it was filmed for and will give you analytics that will tell you how long they’ve spent, people have spent watching that video. So a lot of people had shared it with each other. They sent it and that’s how it went. Stupefy. It was on every kind of, you know, like like Beigel, all these kind of external places as well. A lot of

[00:27:14] You on the news,

[00:27:15] Right? Yeah, I was in Russia TV as well. I don’t know how I would like to instead look

[00:27:21] For people who don’t know, just go through what happened with that, because that was like a Katie Price turkey video thing was.

[00:27:27] Yeah. So it was a on ticked off. There is one of the trends. So I’m ticked off for people who aren’t familiar with the platform, a lot of content is for entertainment and a lot of content is for hacks and DIY kind of stuff. So, you know, cutting hair recipes, that kind of thing. And a trend with regards to teeth and health was that people were going to turkey, shaving their teeth down and saying these are videos, and then showing that before and after and their sharp teeth. And this wasn’t anything new. It was on Instagram for a while before it went on on ticktock. And I had seen a lot of people kind of comment on this. A lot of dentists were rightly speaking up about it, saying, look, these are these are not many of these are crowds. But I was kind of very apprehensive about talking about it because I didn’t want it to sound like I was saying, you know, dentists in certain countries were bad and they didn’t want to sound like I was promoting, you know, a line bleach and bond kind of protocols. So I was quite apprehensive about it. And then I came across this video and I’ll take a lot of my photos with in videos that are about to you to get my opinion on it. And if a video goes viral and everyone sees it and more people are attacking you in that video.

[00:28:31] So I came across this video of a girl who was very young and she had she actually had beautiful, perfect teeth. They were lying. They were very, very white and they didn’t have any major issues. And she had gotten all of them shaved, though, I think at least five to five and had crowns on all of them saying, look at my opinions. And a lot of people were commenting, saying, oh, that is great, but you get this done. And it was really scary to see young people looking up to these in quotation marks, influences and wanting to do the same thing. So I made a video saying, look, these are not videos, these are crowns and these are the risks. You know, you can get nerve damage. You’re going to need root canal treatment. You’re going to need to replace these. And I think, you know what you were saying about juice juice content. I said you might end up needing dentures by age 14. And I think that’s what it took to kind of make people realise that actually. Yeah. That actually this isn’t like just getting false things is actually a big deal. And I got loads of messages from people like loads and loads, like hundreds of messages from people on Instagram saying I had no idea. I’ve been thinking of doing this. Thank you for sharing this. I was literally minutes away from booking my flight to go to Turkey to get this done.

[00:29:41] And there was one message from I think it was over Christmas. There was one message from this girl who was actually in Turkey, and she said, look, I’ve come here with my boyfriend to get our teeth done. And they’ve just told him he needs four root canals before he gets his crowns done. I’m really panicking. I’m really scared. What should I do? I treatments tomorrow. And I was like, there’s literally nothing I can do for you. Now you’re in Turkey, you’re already there. Like, this is the kind of stuff you should be thinking about before you go over there to get your teeth done. And the maintenance like who’s going to who’s going to pay for the maintenance? Do you understand? Do you realise this may need to be replaced? And so it went viral, shared on every kind of platform that I can think of. It was one of the trending news articles on Apple News. My dad actually was going through avenues and he was like, this is where you are. My brother came home. It was like like your like lad Bible. So it was my five minutes of fame. But I’m glad it got the attention that it needed because it made people realise that these aren’t just, you know, stuff you get done and just forget about it.

[00:30:42] Look, look, just just take a step away from from Shaddai produced an amazing concert. Right. And let’s focus on Meenu. And I’m not trying to blow smoke up either of our backsides at this point. Right. But the content of this in the content that we produce on this episode, which has got very little to do about me new but more to do with the stories that we pull out of the guests. OK, and the stories that they share has been so impactful for so many individuals. So, you know, there’s a number of dentists who’ve taken their time out to just send me a direct message and say, Prav, you know what? I listen to you and pay on my, you know, weekly whatever run and the morning walk, whatever. Yeah. I’m thank you so much for sharing that pull up to one side. Right. The purpose of this podcast has never been commercial. Payman, when we started this for Dental Leaders, we decided right in the beginning, no advertized, we weren’t going to market enlightened, we weren’t going to market me, et cetera, et cetera. And we just let the conversation flow around the guests. However. What has come as a result of that is I probably get the vast majority of new business coming towards now right through the podcast, and it’s because we’re producing powerful content. Yeah, yeah, I think it’s on this platform, it for me, it seems easy to produce good content, but personally I find it very hard on on Instagram, you know, it depends how you weigh it.

[00:32:26] Right. I made an Instagram content, all the rest of it. I don’t have the patience and all the time and I don’t have the skill. Yeah. Then you look at someone like Shaddai, you look at someone like Rohner who can just pull out a phone and produce 20 stories a day. Whole different skill sets talent, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there’s no way I can do anything like that. But sit here and shoot the breeze with you or another guest. It’s it’s just part and parcel of easy work. Yeah, other uses were episode 68, what’s driving Dev Patel? Do you know? Definitely I do. And I’ve met him several times. And the one thing that I’ll say is that Dentists’ doesn’t really scream out to me. He’s more businessman, entrepreneur, you know, and, you know, from from the early days of, like, broche link raising funding. And then, you know, this group has come out of nowhere. Right. It’s Dental beauty group that started off and then came out of nowhere. Nothink, which one of our guests had landed in his group? Several. Several. So they had only opened one. They must have only opened one with him. Yes. I think Nick Sethi’s done one with him several. The thing about Dev is I’ve known him since the early days of Dental circle and when I get near to when he qualified and I’ve always done him as a fun guy and all that, but I was really, really impressed with him on the podcast.

[00:34:01] I mean, it’s that thing that you say Prav about how you know, someone for years. And then on the podcast platform, you kind of really get to know things about them. You never knew before. And I was very impressed with him, organised. You know, he doesn’t come across as a super organised, ambitious, consistent. And, you know, he tried to take brush linked to the US and literally sat down on LinkedIn and contacted every CEO of every major Dental insurance company in America again and again and again and again until until some of them got back to him. Pig headed, real pig headed, basically. Yeah. Know, the one thing I get from from him is sort of high integrity businessman. Yeah, I mean, talking to everyone who’s worked with him, the thing they all say is that, you know, he looks after you, he doesn’t even sort of mess about. But, yeah, I like that. And I was I’ve always liked him, but I was very impressed with him talking to him at the podcast. I love that story because when you told me before that you were looking at American insurance companies. Yeah, I thought, wow, that defs really connected man. I mean, he’s got a friend in America or whatever, you know,

[00:35:19] I wish I wish I knew. She just just called emailing. So February twenty nineteen started emailing every single insurance company to possibly think, got a list of them online and every company us Dental emailed them all, messaged him on LinkedIn, linked in a message when I was called, did that constantly and I mean I collected enough to like send a message for five times just to get attention. It was like that, it was actually just for cold messaging them. I sometimes even wait until they were like, just so I can see, that’s how invaluable I got to the point about how to do it, because that’s the only time you get attention about these guys are pretty busy guys anyway. They know what time to be wasting money on things. And then I was sick of tell

[00:36:04] Me this, tell me this. Some of this studio, when you’re when you’re doing this, you’ve got to know you’ve got a piece of paper. You’ve got you’ve got a list of names and and and you’re going through that. You must be quite an organised person to to keep up

[00:36:17] That number one.

[00:36:20] And number two, I’d like to know what was the driving force when you’re doing that? Is it that sort of are going to succeed come what may? Is it spending other people’s money and I can’t let them down? What is it? What is it what is it driving you?

[00:36:35] I think it’s a combination of three things, that the first things you said is obviously definitely there. The third thing I would say is that I generally believe, especially that time when you got product that can work, they’ll be interested in it. Like I knew in my mind, if I was in front of any of these guys who have these insurance companies, I would be almost. Not stupid, but like it will be very difficult. And I know you don’t want your advice because actually this is what I need in my life as an insurance company. I can save you hundreds of millions over the next 10, 20 years. Why would you even have one compassion? That’s why I was in my mind. I was thinking like a lock.

[00:37:14] And was that your pitch? Was that your pitch when you were when you contacted them, were you saying I can save you millions?

[00:37:20] It was not. You know what it was. I’ve got a lot of these companies already were looking at innovative ways to promote or help coming a more like some value based industry. So I will look into it wasn’t like we’re the first ones about doing. I mean, a company called Payman in America have already five years ahead of us. They already created to foster had that to that company offer that once they buy their insurance company that would buy like a billion dollars within like five years. They’ve already kind of a competitor to always go to a company, try to change the model for 30, 50 years. So I think we already had a bit of a kind of a step forward. It wasn’t like completely out of the blue. This new thing has come out. It was new in terms of technology, what we offering attach to the whole us. But it wasn’t the first time a concept was out there. So I think I had that already, that first step to get this guy’s attention. But I generally believe that if I had an mean, I would see that as some balance and some some need for this product, for their company. And luckily, that worked out really well. So I would say if I had the top 15 companies, I’ll hold them. Maybe eight of them got back to me, maybe 10 them go back to business, actually free to them, go back to me. And then I would say I had meetings with six of them within a month.

[00:38:39] Wow. Let’s get to number sixty nine. Best in the world. I mean, he’s certainly one of the best. One of the best. There’s no doubt about the for me, what really impressed me about the conversation was how open and Frank he was about everything. I mean it definitely wasn’t that he was sort of sort of presenting an image. He definitely wasn’t. And I said to him, what do you love about teaching? And he said, look, let’s face it, there’s a certain pleasure when you put a case up and and people go, wow, there’s a certain ego in it for a teacher of his standing to admit to. It’s something he went through. His whole process is three appointment process before he even gets to to drilling. And it’s a real privilege to have someone of his amazing calibre sit there and just say, as it is, you know, I mean, Prav you talk to a lot of high end, highly street dentists, but Parcel’s the one that they go to when they’re in trouble. You know, you mentioned his name and people just aspire to either be like him or be taught by him or whatever. Right. And and whenever his name’s mentioned, the reason why Stagg often said best dentist in the world question. Yeah. Yeah. It’s because that’s what I tend to hear. Yeah.

[00:40:05] Who am I to judge who the best dentist in the world is. Right. This is what you hear. Right. But the thing from know, I wasn’t present for that episode, but I think you mentioned that he was he was quite humble and sort of real and open about his own shortcomings. Right. And where he felt that, you know, he could improve or where were you know, I don’t know, maybe you want to expand on that. Yeah. Yeah, he was he was talking about how he handles his his his team and and how he’s always kept it very small and and, you know, going from South Africa, where he was trained to the US, where he did his postgrad and the Qinsheng on one of the top dentists and the whole Jerrard, she’s just a beautiful story. But what I really for me was the thing that stood out was how open he was about you. What do you enjoy the most? What’s the bit of it? Is it the treatment plants, like the sort of zoomed into the tooth? Is it the planning part? Is it the social part of actually talking to the patients and getting to that? Is it the teaching or is it the light bulb moment when the students suddenly gets what you say? What was the thing that you love

[00:41:19] The most of your

[00:41:20] Things, all the things that you do?

[00:41:22] And at the end of a big case and the cement, everything that’s always the and off of working and everything goes in, we get to the end and zoning out and making a lasting peace building half an hour myself, Tayside is working with my hands, making a percent joy. That’s probably why sometimes I go overboard, because it’s just that I get into my own world meditating and teaching a lot and it probably feels the ego a little bit. I like the adoration you get from the students when you say things and they look up and say, well, that’s amazing. It does make you feel good that it all

[00:42:02] This and

[00:42:05] A lot of what we do is self-fulfilling.

[00:42:08] Let’s move on to Episode 17, Richard Field. Richard, we both know very well you’ve known him for many years, Bayona and me too. Right. You know, the Academy, he’s been involved in teaching there. We’ve been away to Dubai together and met him at various events and courses. What really stands out about Richard is his quest for perfection. OK, and just producing beautiful dentistry. And I mean, this is not in terms of what I’ve seen with my own eyes, but what will the dentists tell me about his work? Generally, the dentists that have employed in in in their clinics. And the one thing to say is, you know what, with Richard, I can leave him with any patient. And I know he’s going to do a fantastic job. I know it’s going to be properly treatment plant. And I also know that it’s going to be incredibly ethical. Yeah, I know. I can just leave Richard to handle it. And the work is the work is, et cetera. He’s a great young dentist and that’s enough. And that’s what I come away with when I think Richard Field, he’s the kind of guy that you would send your family member to be treated. Yeah. You know, you’d have no qualms about it, even though even though he’s so young, you know, there’s a few of the young ones that Richard Depeche Meely now live, I can see is a few, the young ones where, you know, people say, look, I want a good dentist, but I don’t want to pay Harley Street, although I wish it is always cheaper.

[00:43:46] But, you know, people say, I want a good young dentist. Definitely. He also went through some of his problems. He has, you know, someone like is working with staff again. And he said he would never open a practise, which surprised the hell out of me. He said, I’ve just not made for it. So it’s good that self-awareness goes a long way, too, doesn’t it? But yeah. Yes. And you know what? Some people are blind to all of that. Right. He’s obviously seen the other side and made that conscious decision himself that this is for me. Some people on the other side are blind, completely blind to what was involved. And then it’s sink or swim right when it happens. And look, luckily, a lot of people get through the other end and make a success of it. Right. And it’s how a lot of lot of us have done it as well. You know, you can to that sink or swim. And I’ve been there. You’ve been there. Right. And it’s character building, so. Yeah. And what aspect of it is what drives you? I mean, some people love the planning, but some people loved my car, loved I love the planning part because it makes me feel safe.

[00:44:52] And like you say, I’m quite a defensive dentist. I want to make sure what we’re doing is right

[00:44:59] And it’s explaining that to the patient. Or they might come in

[00:45:02] And say, I want these teeth fixed and we look at the planning so we can fix these teeth, but we need to fix these nine other issues as well. We need to move this here and there. So again, it is maybe

[00:45:13] The Meccano making things fit together,

[00:45:15] But I wouldn’t claim that I know inclusion. But I it’s I really find it satisfying to see things fit together and just see that how how this truth will change this tooth.

[00:45:28] And I sometimes, even

[00:45:29] Though we’re looking at this tooth, we need to sort of involve other other aspects of the market as well. I find that quite satisfying when you when you sort of put together in all the red dots in the right place, I find that quite satisfying.

[00:45:44] Let’s move on to the hit man, Daniel artist. This guy pops up on my Facebook news feed story, feed, call it whatever you want, and it’s it’s boxing bouts. After bout training, they started the other. And, you know, one thing that I took away from this was was not just, you know, skirt over the discipline, the training, the hard work, the physical enjoyment and all the rest of it while I was away from here is that, you know, we’re completely different human beings in the sense that he’s going to stand in front of someone he knows. This guy wants to knock seven bells out of him. Yeah. But there’s no fear. Yeah, I would literally be at that point knocking my knees together, trembling. Yeah, but boxes are built differently. Yeah, and that was clear from that conversation with him is like there’s an element of anxiety and adrenaline and all the rest of it. And that’s the healthy piece of the build up to it. Right. But actually, he’s not scared. There’s no fear and no walks away with completely different human beings. And, you know, I admire that. Really? Yeah. Although although, you know, the head injury part of it is important and it’s not like you didn’t know about the head injury part of it.

[00:47:09] He knew. Well, he knew. He knows. He knows better than all of us what it can happen. But when when you say so, doesn’t that scare you? Is like, I wouldn’t be a fighter if that scared me for the other thing that I walked away with on that episode was a sort of sense of ethics, you know. Yes. I don’t know whether it’s to do with his faith or whatever it was. He seemed to see things in a very sort of simple, I wouldn’t say some simplistic, simple way. And the ethics that he seemed to bring to every situation really impressed me. Really impressed. Yeah. And the thing, you know, stemming from his dad younger days and then his faith, I think his faith plays a big faith is important. But it wasn’t like he was shoving it down your throat or anything. It just the way it felt to me was you say, look, here’s problem X, what do you reckon? And and he would he would just come out with a beautiful way of looking at it, you know, really impressed me, really impressed me. And how much does faith feature in boxing you in belief in thanking for having the opportunity and before you go out there and after you win and the gratitude

[00:48:22] And stuff just just told me about you sort of mindset and beliefs. Yeah. Ah, you know, it definitely I mean, I always believe in being grateful to. Oh my God. And, you know, that’s where I get a lot of my strength, patience. And, you know, you’ve got to be strong not just in boxing, but in life in general. We all have our ups and downs. So, you know, I’ve got a lot more strength through my faith. And any time we have if we go through difficulties and, you know, and boxing has been some things that even for example, I mean, my record is seventeen wins and three losses. All three of my losses were under very controversial circumstances. Is boxing is one of those things. But you’ve got to be strong and rise above it. You know, you’ve got two choices when you get hit with something, you know, with adversity, it’s all about how you respond, you know, if you’re going to be weak to overcome you, you know, and that’s going to be your choice, then you’re not going to be able to propel any further if you’re going to just take on the chin. But like, you know, OK, I’ve been knocked down. I’m going to dust myself off and get back up and push on. And that’s what makes champions.

[00:49:38] That’s what makes people great. People always remember Thomas Edison for inventing the light bulb. How many times did Thomas Edison fail? Countless times, countless times, you know, you know, you will remember that, you know, when you look at an iceberg, you know, destruction beneath the sea, you know, it’s huge this year. It’s almost like a triple what you see at the top. And this all the underneath and all that sort of hard work, dedication, the difficulties that people don’t see through it. Maybe there’s earning is billions today. That is billions. He grew up in a room. He grew up in a place. It’s like, you know, just a small room. There’s about ten people in there. You know, he didn’t grow up with a silver spoon. You know, he worked his way hard in order to obtain the success and earn all that success and wealth that he’s done. And I’ve been very fortunate where we started late, late night sessions with Floyd Mayweather. So another thing that I sort of picked up from him and Danny Williams were doing my fight times close to my fight times. I’ll train at night. So mirrored the time of my fight for circadian rhythms and to develop your timing with boxing. And that’s something also I picked up my school science back as well.

[00:50:53] So in that time. So Floyd Mayweather, he you’d be training at night and then there’d be times where he’d just sit and talk with us to sunrise, you know, just giving us pearls of wisdom, you know? So it’s about how you respond. And faith has given me just the ability to look and analyse things, not just think, you know, look at things beyond what they are. And it’s like when I had my last controversial loss, I was six and three, six wins, three losses, you know, and I remember people looking and thinking, oh, yeah, you know, maybe you know that. So, you know, he can stop. You can carry on. How are you going to carry on someone to carry on? You know, all thanks to God today I’m seventeen and three. You know, I didn’t look back. So I get a lot that, you know, faith strength through, you know, through my faith, you know, and, you know, I get a lot of that strength, you know, through God. And I always pray I’m not I’m not a perfect person. I have my mistakes. But I always I’ll do my prayers and I’ll do my prayers a day, you know, just takes five minutes of my schedule to draw, you know, to just thank my creator remember him and just gives me that moment of just coming out this quick, such, you know, life is so fast, it’s so dynamic.

[00:52:15] And you just get like five, ten minutes out. You just stand before you create. It’s just you and him and you just talk to him, you know, and he just, you know, gives you that solace, that tranquillity, that sort of serenity. And it’s, you know, I you know, that’s why I’m one of the advantages I’ve had been pleased with my and I’ve been able to travel, you know, I love travelling. I love seeing the world. I love nature, you know? And again, you just look at all of those things and you just kind of you know, you remember God, the creator of creation. Just think of, you know, wow, what an engineer, you know, space star, not, you know, not astronomy. And I look at these things and it just it just, you know, it just allows you to have a moment of time and it just gives you just gives us strength and it gives you that, you know, that mental strength that we talk about in boxing, which which you really need. So it plays a big, big, big, big factor in my life and my career for boxing for sure.

[00:53:16] Let’s move on to the next one, which is Elaine Elaine Hally, president, ex president of the VA, in many ways, one of the mentors of lots of people in the Digital Theatre, DSD kind of world. If what stood out for me was just the story of starting a practise in a town, in a town in Scotland and coming in and saying, I’m going to be private from from the beginning and and having this sort of the the the grit to keep on going in that situation back in that day. And if you remember, Prav opening a private practise wasn’t a thing. No. And I think, you know, what I walked away with from that was her against all odds attitude. Yeah, the. I’m not trying to paraphrase, all right, but it was like, screw him, I’m going to make a success of this, right. I’ve got so much conviction in what I want to do. It was it was inspiring. Right. And then and then, you know, being one of the one of the very few women in dentistry at that time who went on to, first of all, open a practise and a practise with a difference. Right. Against all odds. Then go on to become president and then lecture and then teach and act as a you know, be an inspiration to to lots of people, male or female.

[00:54:45] Right. Let’s not try and sort of. Boxer into well, you know, she’s she’s a female Leaders she’s inspired many, many dentists, right? Not not just yes. I mean, it came up then it came up in conversation. The one thing I’d say about her is she carries often the really feminine way. Yeah. Because, you know, it’s possible to be trying to be manly about things, even if you’re a woman. But that wasn’t that where she was coming from at all. You know, it was she was an inspirational leader coming from the other side of of things and sort of the collaborative kind of way of looking at things. But I really like Elaine. She’s she’s one of my favourites. So it was lovely to have her on. So take us through the opening as Scott was quite innovative thing to do. But when people didn’t really open sports, I mean, of course, some did take us through that. I mean, are you the kind of person who jumps into things with full confidence or did you have anxiety about it using your parents money?

[00:55:50] That I didn’t use my parents money,

[00:55:54] Not that they offered, but

[00:55:58] What we did want to do

[00:55:59] Is guarantee. So they had the guarantee, you know, they had to act at the guarantee for the loans from the bank. Yeah. And do I jump into things? I think I think I logically look at the pros and cons. I had a plan and I just took it step by step and kind of didn’t. I’ve never particularly worried too much about what other people think, although then sometimes it comes as a shock when I realise people do think things. And so I got a lot of a lot of stick for opening a practise in a city where I wasn’t known. And I actually got some quite nasty letters from some of the dentists. I was quite naive, I suppose. I did write to everyone saying I was opening a practise single handed practise. I was going to be charging privately for the first examination. It was just the contracts. I’ll change the year that I graduated. So there was a big move in England where I had worked initially for dentists coming out the NHS. Scotland wasn’t moving in that way. So before that you weren’t allowed to mix private and NHS. And I, I started by charging for the full examination and then giving people options. And that was practically I would be really angered a lot of people by doing that. But I just I kept my head down and stuck to my guns and realised very quickly I wasn’t going to survive and an NHS environment because I wanted to be able to offer my patients the best the density had to offer. That’s always been I want my patients to have the choice of the of the best not to say that I’m the best clinically. That was never my that was never my goal. But to make sure that I understood all the different options and to be sure that people had choice, that’s what was important to me.

[00:57:46] Let’s move on to episode seventy three Jazz Jazzy Gulati. What an inspiration. I mean I’ve just joined his telegrammed group Telegram on Telegram. Now because it’s WhatsApp groups completely full, there’s not enough space for it. And while we’ve been talking on this podcast, but there’s been maybe 40 messages on the telegram route, I mean, is someone who’s leading a tribe of geeks. Yeah. And how amazing that he’s managed to sort of package Dental education in this beautiful sort of he he’s so into it and the people that are into him are into it. And there’s a group of dentists out there who I would put them in all of them, and that the sorority royalty is what they call them, who aren’t worried about getting sued. Of course they’re worried, but that’s not their number one thing. The number one thing is getting better, finding out what’s what’s what’s the sort of the latest thing. And and what do people think of this? How do we attack that? And Jazy himself, just his attitude is so, so sort of inspirational. So he’s got me back into dentistry, did whatever the merits of good. I don’t care what anyone says. I’m not. But he makes me want to pick up a drink. Yeah, yeah, yes. You know what? The thing the thing that I walk away with when it comes to jazz is his delivery.

[00:59:14] He delivers with humour. Yeah. As well as well as well. It’s not only humour though, dude. It’s not like it’s not a comedy show. No, I don’t know. But you know, the thing that I walk away, he delivers with humour. It’s not always with humour. Right. And he’s a he’s a real geek. Yeah. Real geeks down on everything. All the all the little bits and pieces he speaks about. And he’s just popped out of nowhere, right. Yeah. Yeah. He’s a household name now. Right. But he just sprung out of nowhere. Right. Just this guy with a with a beard and. A turban popped out of nowhere and then all of a sudden he’s got a show, he’s super geeky, he’s funny. I don’t know if it’s you know, I tend not to follow his Dental geeky ness because there’s no way I understand it. Right. But he’s comical videos that turn up on my Facebook stories and all the rest of it will always tickle me. But I’ll tell you something from on the content story, he’s he’s managed to sort of in business, we would call it vertically integrate so many who are doing a podcast. His podcast turned into a community.

[01:00:23] The community is turned into a course, the course. Now there’s a telegram group, there’s a WhatsApp group. And again, another one who I said to him, tell me about practise. Are you going to open the practise? Because he’s the kind of guy who would do very well opening a practise. You know, he’s good. Good at good at people. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, I’m not going to do a practise, definitely not yet, because I’m fully focussed on the produce Arati and he should be too. But he’s got a long way to go. Got a massive audience in the US now, and I love the fact that that we’re now morphing Dental education into this, you know, this way of doing it. You know, the guy seven years out of Dental school doesn’t have another qualification. And yet he’s inspiring thousands of dentists in all over the world to get better, you know, more power to him. Really like the this of infectious enthusiasm that you’ve got for dentistry. I mean, did you were you a good speaker before? Did people come to you for advice or I mean, you seem to like take it so naturally, you talk to people and you say enthusiasm. You have where did this start? I mean, were you one of these people? I was talking to Basil, he would say, no, he wasn’t top of his class and Dental school, were you? What was your story? Um, well, I was president of the University Dentistry Insights.

[01:01:48] I was always very active in that. I was very used to speaking and something that I was very much involved in. I don’t do the whole I was Mr Basils said I stay away from politics. Are the only two things I don’t talk about in my podcast is religion and politics. I stay away from that stuff. Everything always goes in the fashion industry, but I guess so. I was also without blowing my own horn, I was top of class. I was the first person before. I was very embarrassed in a way to say this. I was like I was very egotistical, but I’ve since had some sort of mind training to to change the way I perceive it, which is basically I was the first person in the U.S. to get one hundred percent in a clear and a final exam. And now I’m proud of the proud to say that. And it was a real something I really worked towards. So I was always aiming to be competitive and top of the class and aiming

[01:02:33] To be one with the community

[01:02:34] In a voice, a leader of some sort. Where did you qualify in Sheffield. Sheffield? You were you were you top of your class in school as well? Like before before I like sex and stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was always what I was thinking about the origin because I knew come the podcast, where does it all originate from? And I can pinpoint it to when I was six years old. So if you go back far enough, I’m sure I’m a refugee. I was born in Jalalabad, Afghanistan. I came here when I was six years old in a word of English, and my earliest memory of achievement was in year two at the time. And there was this massive board at the front, the class with everyone’s name on it, and who got 100 percent in the spelling test. So everyone had all these stars every time you get the sense that you get a gold star. So obviously everyone had all these stars and I was the only one without a star. And it went on week by week by week. I never had a star and I just made it my mission that one evening to practise writing these three and four letter words, cat, home ball, that kind of stuff, practise, practise, practise all night. And I’ll never forget that moment. I got my first gold star at age six and from there it was I was addicted. I was addicted to achievement. And that’s been a big driver for me. I just want to constantly do things. I’m one of these guys who has this massive to do list. I’m like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. If I’ve done something I wasn’t on the to do list and put it on the list just to take it off, just get that feeling I’d done something. You know, this is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on

[01:04:09] One with emerging Leaders history. Your house, Payman,

[01:04:16] Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

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