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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:40] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Richard Lee onto the podcast. Richard, [00:00:55] one of the top restorative aesthetic dentists in the country. Certainly [00:01:00] one of my big influences when, when when we started doing composite I [00:01:05] that time, I think Sanjay Sethi had done some stuff that [00:01:10] I was impressed by. The internet wasn’t really there, so it wasn’t like you could watch [00:01:15] lots of stuff by lots of people. And I remember seeing some of your work back then. I’m actually [00:01:20] approaching you. And I think at that time you were very with up to Dental. Yes. And so there was none of that. [00:01:25] But but I was always a massive fan of your work. And to this day, I really [00:01:30] real pleasure having you. Thanks. Real pleasure having you. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Nice to be here. Yeah. Really nice to be here. [00:01:35]

Payman Langroudi: We’d like to start these with backstories. Um, but I [00:01:40] do sometimes have, like, a burning question that I want to sort of put straight [00:01:45] out so that I don’t have to worry about that question anymore with you. It [00:01:50] does go around this sort of idea of excellence. Like when [00:01:55] did that? At what point did you think excellence is where I’m going? It’s almost like product positioning. [00:02:00] Yeah. Our product could be the cheapest, the prettiest, the best. But we [00:02:05] positioned it as excellence. Yeah, yeah.

Richard Lee: I’m not sure there’s ever was ever [00:02:10] a conscious decision to be for that. And I think it’s it’s it’s a process. So even [00:02:15] now you’re chasing something. Uh, my lab unica, their strap [00:02:20] line is like the endless pursuit of excellence. And it is. And it’s a pursuit. It’s not something you ever attain. [00:02:25] So I think it’s always there’s that wanting to be to be better and better. Um, in terms [00:02:30] of sort of kind of beautiful dentistry or that sort of thing. I remember [00:02:35] my first exposure to that was I was really quite [00:02:40] newly qualified, and I saw, um, an optician brochure, I think, or an [00:02:45] ultra brochure or something. One of those, you know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Brochures, but beautiful brochure and.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:02:50] And just the photography and the and it’s black backgrounds. And [00:02:55] this was again, this is like back in, you know, 25 years ago, 26 years ago. So I hadn’t seen [00:03:00] anything like that before. So that was sort of mind blowing stuff. Um, but I think it’s you’re just striving [00:03:05] to be better and better and better and better because, I mean, [00:03:10] it can be problematic sometimes because you’re looking at your work and you only see the flaws. [00:03:15] And that’s always the way and that’s the way it should be in terms of if you want to improve. Yeah. Um, but you need [00:03:20] to be a bit careful with that because that can lead you down a path of sort of slight obsession. And, [00:03:25] you know, you need to sort of take a bit of a step back sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: And a lot of, a lot of the top guys [00:03:30] are kind of on the spectrum a little bit.

Richard Lee: I think. So I mean.

Payman Langroudi: It takes that to be, you know.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:03:35] Matty Parsons was laughing at me about being being something like that. I think maybe I, I think, yeah, you’ve got this [00:03:40] compulsion to. It’s the photography that drives you and pushes you, I think, because [00:03:45] that’s the only way that I see you. Because when you’re looking at a tooth and it’s only 11mm high, you sort [00:03:50] of see it, but you don’t see all the detail when you start photographing stuff and making it very big. And that’s when you [00:03:55] really start getting, um, really zooming in on the smallest detail. But it’s not the smallest [00:04:00] detail to you because you’ve refined it more and more and more and more and more over the years, and then you’re [00:04:05] only left with these small things, and those are the things that you’re chasing. And it’s sort of a diminishing returns, [00:04:10] almost in a way, because you’re striving for these tiny, tiny gains that other people might not see. But they’re really important [00:04:15] to you because that’s how you feel that you’re progressing and getting better, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But it’s not [00:04:20] only it’s not only about sort of, uh, flower arranging. Um, [00:04:25] the, you know, the bacteria are small things. Yeah. Stain molecules [00:04:30] are small things. Yeah, yeah. So you want this thing to work? You do. You have to work on that macro level. [00:04:35] Yes.

Richard Lee: Yes. There there are so many different. But yeah, there’s bits of it from the, from the small all the way down to [00:04:40] the, the very, very small, the small parts of it. Um, but yeah, I don’t think [00:04:45] it’s ever been a case of what have I tried to position myself? I’ve always wanted to do the [00:04:50] best work that I could. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: But always I’m saying, were you that 12 year old as well?

Richard Lee: Uh, no, actually, [00:04:55] that’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: The inflection point.

Richard Lee: I’m looking so. Yeah. Good point. So through, um, [00:05:00] I mean, at school and to a degree university. I did enough [00:05:05] to get by.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Me too. Um, I was infuriating. My parents, I think [00:05:10] by just parents evening would be. Yeah, he’s good, but he could be really good if he actually [00:05:15] applied himself because it was okay, and I could sort of drift a bit. And, you know, I didn’t see [00:05:20] the point in doing more than I needed to do to get right. And then even through university, we had [00:05:25] some. I went to Birmingham, we had some phenomenal lecturers and teachers like Ian Chappell, Prof. [00:05:30] Chappell, um, he was my head of firm like these, these phenomenal clinicians. Yeah. Um, [00:05:35] and I felt really lucky to have those. But even through that I enjoyed [00:05:40] it. But I wasn’t I was just sort of doing the course. I was at university, I was having fun. [00:05:45] It was, you know, just ticking the boxes kind of going through. I think where [00:05:50] it probably started to change for me was when I did Chris Christie’s course, like like everybody [00:05:55] says, I’m sure, um, because I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know, it must be one of the earliest.

Richard Lee: Um, it’s [00:06:00] 2005, 2006, I think it was it was, yeah. They were doing it at the Q clinic at that point there, [00:06:05] you know. So yeah, it was Q clinic. Yeah, I know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a blast from the past.

Richard Lee: So [00:06:10] it it was it was one of the early ones and it was complete by happenstance and luck. I’d, [00:06:15] I’d taken a year off cos I’d been doing some NHS dentistry for a few years. Um, I’d stopped enjoying [00:06:20] myself, just things. It was fine, but it felt like a real trudge [00:06:25] and. And there was no. You’re talking about sort of how do you get better and excellence and quicker. [00:06:30] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you see 30 patients a day. You’re I mean, I think it’s great for some things and I, [00:06:35] you know, I’ve heard people say and I agree with it, that I think in terms of training and, um, being [00:06:40] able to get lots of experience, I think it’s a great way to do that, that you don’t get to do university, do [00:06:45] less and less, you know, tooth cutting at university. So to actually I worked in, um, [00:06:50] on the Holloway Road. Actually, that was my dad moved to London Holloway Road, and [00:06:55] I worked there for a few years in a very busy, predominantly exempt NHS [00:07:00] practice when it was fee per item. So you’re dealing with lots of people who don’t [00:07:05] really care whether they save their tooth or not. You know, it might be, you know, it’s like this back [00:07:10] tooth is really sore, you know, what do you want to do? These are the options. I don’t care what you know what. I want to save it, [00:07:15] you know? So I’ll give it a go. And and without the pressure of them having, you know, paying £2,000 [00:07:20] for it, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, you know, because that aspect, the one that you’ve just pointed out is [00:07:25] something I’d never properly considered or I had. When I look back on my one year in the NHS, [00:07:30] there was this one case I applied for was a prior approval for [00:07:35] eight veneers, and she didn’t really care or anything. And it was [00:07:40] all on me. Yeah, that one benefit of NHS, I do understand, but [00:07:45] if it was three years spent in private?

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think [00:07:50] at the end of the three, if one Richard went and did this and the other Richard went to.

Richard Lee: Sliding doors, [00:07:55] isn’t it. I don’t, I don’t know. I think for me it was I think there’s a certain amount of flying hours that you [00:08:00] just need to get in terms of.

Payman Langroudi: And where do, where do the Australians and the Americans get [00:08:05] those flying hours? They don’t know. They don’t have NHS.

Richard Lee: This is true. This is true. I don’t know. Maybe without [00:08:10] that that that that pressure I mean, I had a very good practice as well. And that was, uh, makes.

Payman Langroudi: A big.

Richard Lee: Difference.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:08:15] does. Who was that? Who was the first boss?

Richard Lee: The first boss was one of my heads of fifth year at [00:08:20] university. So a guy called Clive Gibson. Oh. And he, uh, he offered me [00:08:25] a place, and, uh, that was in Wolverhampton, actually. And that [00:08:30] was. That was great. It was really good. Yeah, it was great, you know. Good. One day a week in Stafford [00:08:35] with all the group. A really nice way to learn. It was it was supportive. It was good. And [00:08:40] I felt I had a really good grounding at university. I came out not anxious or worried about treating [00:08:45] patients on my own. That, that was fine. The clinical side was fine. I struggled a bit with adapting [00:08:50] from university to and being in a room on my own all day. I found that quite hard. [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: I think everyone does. I think everyone, yeah.

Richard Lee: Do they? Because I don’t, because obviously a lot of my mates were medics. They went [00:09:00] off to hospital and they’re essentially still doing the same thing. They’re surrounded by loads of colleagues and people and [00:09:05] it’s very social. And it’s whereas I think you put a 23 year old into a room [00:09:10] all day with one other person who you might not have anything to do with. You’re 23 and there might be, you know, 55 [00:09:15] nurse. And, um, I think it can get a bit sort of, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think the, [00:09:20] the one after the year after that. I mean, because these TT you’ve got your group and your the [00:09:25] year after that even though your salary goes through the roof.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The fact that now [00:09:30] you think is this it.

Richard Lee: Yeah I was, I was very lucky again I had a great [00:09:35] boss. So so the first one was good and then I had a great one, uh, guy called Bernie Taylor [00:09:40] and that was the Holloway. And he sort of took me under his wing and was like, I’d [00:09:45] never done a bridge before, and there’s loads of stuff I hadn’t done before. Um, and he just sort of [00:09:50] showed me what to do, basically. And that was that. Again, that was that was really, really good. Anyway, I did this for [00:09:55] a few years and I just yeah, it’s like I thought, am I going to do this for 40 years? I [00:10:00] certain things weren’t working. I didn’t know why. And I was starting to frustrate me. Um, I [00:10:05] knew what I was doing for the basics, but anything more complex than that, I didn’t know how to do some things. Anyway, [00:10:10] I decided that I’d had enough of this for a while, so I went off to, [00:10:15] um, work as a dive guide in the Red sea randomly. So I’d done sort of [00:10:20] three, four years in university in London. Um, worked really hard, felt a bit [00:10:25] burnt out. I hadn’t taken any holidays in that time at all. Just gone head down, bum up work, work, work. And [00:10:30] I got to the stage where I was like, I don’t, I don’t think I want to do this anymore. Well, I [00:10:35] don’t, I don’t want to do this right now. I just wanted a break.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel like you were tactically doing something [00:10:40] correct, or were you like, no.

Richard Lee: I was running.

Payman Langroudi: Away, slightly desperate.

Richard Lee: I was running away.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, [00:10:45] that must be scary.

Richard Lee: Yeah, it was, but.

Payman Langroudi: But it was your only option.

Richard Lee: It felt like my only [00:10:50] option. And I think once I decided I was going to do it, the sense of relief that I was going to go and [00:10:55] get away from all of this and just thought, I just I just [00:11:00] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: What did friends and family girlfriend. These people think.

Richard Lee: It was weird because I just bought a flat. [00:11:05] I just got settled and, um, I was a bit worried about telling my [00:11:10] parents, actually. But they they were really cool with it. They they, I think they sort of said, are you going to come back to dentistry? And I said, [00:11:15] yeah, I think so. And they said, well, it’s fine, go and enjoy yourself. And I hadn’t taken a year out, so I’d gone straight from university, straight [00:11:20] from school into university.

Payman Langroudi: Were they that kind of parent generally. Were they.

Richard Lee: They were.

Payman Langroudi: Very [00:11:25] cool. Yeah. Supporting.

Richard Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They, they impose their.

Richard Lee: No no. [00:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: What do they do.

Richard Lee: Uh, dad um, was a, uh, building surveyor for the, um, [00:11:35] local town council. Um, mum worked in a in an office for a small software company, [00:11:40] so very sort of normal.

Payman Langroudi: Where did industry come from then?

Richard Lee: Yeah. Really randomly. So [00:11:45] I was doing I wanted to do something sciencey maybe sort of medically kind of thing, just [00:11:50] because I quite like the sciencey stuff. And then, I mean, you talk about sliding doors moments, you [00:11:55] know, how your life sort of changes. But Mum and Dad were out one evening with some friends of theirs for dinner, [00:12:00] and a friend of theirs is a dentist, um, dentist called Dave Thomas, who’s a dentist [00:12:05] in Wolverhampton, which is where I’m from. And my mum was [00:12:10] chatting to him and said, well, Richard, you know, he’s got to start applying for university. He doesn’t really know what he wants to what he wants to do. And he said, [00:12:15] oh, he should come and watch me for a day and see if he likes that. So literally next day mum said, [00:12:20] you know, would you like to go? And I went, yeah, okay. And I, and I went along [00:12:25] and, and I think I was.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Richard Lee: I was there for about four hours and I was like, yeah that seems fine.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember thinking, [00:12:30] what was it about it that you dug? I mean, was it, was it the work, was it the the BMW [00:12:35] like, what was it?

Richard Lee: No, it’s funny because money never, ever came into it. It was, it was [00:12:40] a it seemed like I’m all the [00:12:45] things that people say, you know, you’re working for you. Yeah. Working for yourself. You’re working with your hands. You’re [00:12:50] you’re getting to help people. You’re getting to see people. It’s all kind of the very, sort of altruistic kind of things. I thought, yeah, that’s something [00:12:55] that looks interesting. I’m not stuck in a lab, which is I was thinking about doing biochemistry or something like that. So I’m not [00:13:00] stuck in a lab and patient. Patient facing, um, working with my hands. [00:13:05] That seems quite interesting. Um, I’d never had an experience. I’ve never had any author. I’ve [00:13:10] never had a filling. I’ve never had. I’ve never experienced it from the patient side, but it just seemed quite interesting [00:13:15] and I so I did the morning there. It was a funny morning. Anyway, I had a car crash on [00:13:20] the way there. A lorry had reversed into into the car and it was got there a bit shaken and, and [00:13:25] uh, yeah. So maybe, maybe that was it. Maybe I wasn’t in my right mind, but I did the four hours just [00:13:30] did the morning.

Payman Langroudi: And what was it, an NHS?

Richard Lee: Yeah NHS practice. He was a big trainer. He had like a [00:13:35] big a few practices and uh.

Payman Langroudi: Is it because, you know, [00:13:40] that was your work experience? Yeah, mine was in Harley Street in an orthodontist. Yeah. [00:13:45]

Richard Lee: It is funny. And it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Funny. Totally different. Me and you had a totally different day [00:13:50] that day. Yeah, yours was loads of people. Mine was very few humans. Yes. This guy used to [00:13:55] work without a nurse. Wow. Yeah. He was like the old school guy. Yeah.

Richard Lee: It is. But you just [00:14:00] see something that maybe just thinks that’s interesting. Yeah. And I think I was 16, maybe [00:14:05] 17. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t know what you want.

Richard Lee: I don’t know what you want, and but it’s. But it seemed [00:14:10] interesting, and, uh, I didn’t come home, like, as though I’d, you know, sort of [00:14:15] this kind of Damascene kind of like. But I just I went. Yeah. And [00:14:20] parents say, what do you think? I said, yeah, I think I’ll apply to do that. And that was, that was I know some people and it’s [00:14:25] very different these days. I mean, goodness me, what people have to go through to get into university and to get on the course. [00:14:30] But, um, yeah, I remember listening to to to Lewis talking when he was saying [00:14:35] that Lewis McKenzie talked when he said it was a be in two season. It was a B2C. When I went to university as [00:14:40] well, um, you know, so it wasn’t a very popular course I don’t think. Um, so [00:14:45] yeah, I applied I applied to to them and got in and went and and that was and that was it. [00:14:50] So it wasn’t like I’d sort of had this burning ambition to be a dentist or like, I didn’t really know anything about [00:14:55] it. I remember that they gave us, um, the first essay to write something about the cause of caries. [00:15:00] I didn’t know what caries was. Genuinely, I had to ask somebody else because there wasn’t really any internet as well. It was [00:15:05] like 1994. You couldn’t really. And I said, what’s what’s.

Payman Langroudi: Different these days? When I was it’s.

Richard Lee: Tooth. [00:15:10]

Payman Langroudi: Decay when I was with those PDSA people. And they are so driven and know [00:15:15] so much. It’s a very.

Richard Lee: Different cohort that are going in now than the people. And I think, [00:15:20] you know, that’s good in some ways I think you might lose something as well with the balance of that, you know. Um, [00:15:25] but I knew nothing. And then I remember, I think in freshers they showed us a video [00:15:30] of a tooth extraction. I was like, oh, that looks a bit grim. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: When you look back on [00:15:35] Birmingham, do you look back on those as like best days of your life?

Richard Lee: I loved university, [00:15:40] genuinely.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve still got friends from there and yeah, yeah.

Richard Lee: Yeah, my, my, the [00:15:45] first person I met at university in the room next door in halls is a medic, um, called [00:15:50] sham, and I saw him last week. He’s a, he’s a, he’s a consultant anaesthetist at the Marsden. [00:15:55] And, um, I adored university. We just had the best time, [00:16:00] and I didn’t. I wasn’t a big dentistry person. I didn’t hang out with dentists very much. Um, [00:16:05] our halls of residence were. We were a bit away. And so we got quite a tight [00:16:10] group from that. And then that sort of carried on through. So friends were medics and varying different [00:16:15] things, different, um, subjects, but not really many dentists. And [00:16:20] we just had loads of fun. It just we got through the course, found that, [00:16:25] as I say, I enjoyed it, but I wasn’t particularly striving to, to, to to get anywhere with it. I didn’t [00:16:30] care where I came in in the class particularly.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know, Rona puts much of her success [00:16:35] down to that fact, which was that she wasn’t hanging with the dentists. She [00:16:40] said she wasn’t doing it on purpose. No. Yeah. But, um, once she [00:16:45] finished number one, all her friends. Yeah. You said your buddies become consultants at [00:16:50] the Marsden. Yeah, yeah. When you get to a certain age, these people suddenly become establishment figures. [00:16:55] And all of her establishment figures were in all walks of life who then became [00:17:00] patients and so on. You know her influence? Yes. Knowing Chelsea. Yeah. [00:17:05] Of course. Number one. But number two, not following the normal [00:17:10] path that we’re kind of fed is the normal path. You know, and [00:17:15] it’s so interesting, you know, when you ask for advice, these youngsters are always asking for advice now. Right. [00:17:20] But youngster comes to you and asks for advice or comes to me and asks for advice. [00:17:25] There has to be a discounting for the do what I did. Yeah. [00:17:30] Angle. Go here and there’s no reason like, you know, you’re going to say to the youngster, I [00:17:35] don’t know, maybe you’re more nuanced than this, but you’re going to say to the youngster, two, three years on the NHS, [00:17:40] get your miles in, because that’s what you did. And I didn’t do. I did, then moved [00:17:45] straight to private. And I’m going to say, why not go straight to private? I mean, we’ll have to discount. Yeah. The person [00:17:50] asking the question has to discount.

Richard Lee: We all carry bias.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we.

Richard Lee: All carry bias, and we dispense that because [00:17:55] the way we got where we were at by doing the thing that we did, and you can’t work out what was the good thing and the bad thing, you know. [00:18:00] So it is it is difficult. Um, you know, if again, I, I hope [00:18:05] my children work harder than me at university. I mean, I, I think I did what I needed, and I, and [00:18:10] I, and I passed and I, I did all right. You know, I got honours, survivors and certain things, but it wasn’t. [00:18:15] Yeah, I wasn’t driven by by the academia. [00:18:20] I wasn’t driven about being the best. I just the work was fine. Once I figured out it took me about [00:18:25] a year to kind of work out how university worked with the exams and all that sort of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: I think as a learner, I [00:18:30] mean, you’re very good at what you do, right? As a learner, do you think you’re sort [00:18:35] of strong, sort of instinctively like you or, you know, like some people say they just [00:18:40] work hard and you’re kind of making out here that, you know, that you weren’t working that hard, but you were getting extraordinary [00:18:45] results in some areas. Yeah.

Richard Lee: No, I didn’t work that hard.

Payman Langroudi: Things come to you quite easily. [00:18:50]

Richard Lee: Um, certainly. I find so [00:18:55] dry academic stuff. Not so much. You know, I’d struggle with biochemistry [00:19:00] and that sort of stuff. Um, I remember hating, you know, [00:19:05] some of some of those subjects found them really, really hard. Um, when it comes to more practical [00:19:10] things that I can visualise, I’m quite a visual learner. In fact, one of the I remember one of the, [00:19:15] one of those aha moments was when, uh, I was in my practice and I was in my boss’s [00:19:20] room, and I opened his bottom drawer with all his lab work, and I just started looking at the, the [00:19:25] models that all the work had come back and looking at the preps and that. And I learned more in half an hour, almost [00:19:30] like, oh, right. That’s what a three quarter crown looks like, right? That’s what an inverse bevel is, right. That’s a lot. [00:19:35] And actually physically seeing it and then taking the restoration off and putting it on and going right I get it now. [00:19:40] Whereas I think sometimes in a book it’s a bit, you know, sort of abstract. So visually I [00:19:45] learn I learn quite well. Um, but I didn’t start getting [00:19:50] really into it until. And so going back to the thing I was saying earlier was, was when I went on Chris Orr’s course, um, [00:19:55] that that lit a fire under me, really, in terms of my passion [00:20:00] and the potential, what I saw of like how exciting it could be [00:20:05] and how new it was. And just to answer all these questions that I’d had about why things didn’t [00:20:10] work or how things could work better, you know, the solutions to the problems that I was seeing and that [00:20:15] that I find that and that put me on a two year journey of, um, [00:20:20] going to do lots of different courses. So I went to there wasn’t a good occlusion course in the UK at [00:20:25] that time. I didn’t feel that there was, um. So then I was on Dental town. Remember that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:20:30] Yeah, yeah. So I was looking at Dental and trying to work out what to do, so I went and did, um, Dawson, [00:20:35] uh, for 2 or 3 years, backwards and forwards to Florida. [00:20:40] Yeah. Went through the whole sort of continuum. And that was a real kind [00:20:45] of amazing moment of feeling like I kind of got it. Like at the time, I [00:20:50] remember thinking it was a bit like The Matrix, where suddenly you see beyond everything. You felt as though I understood [00:20:55] so much. I could see why things almost straight away were failing or didn’t work, or what the what, [00:21:00] what needed to happen. That course really kind of blew my mind.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, if [00:21:05] you were going to be like a straw man of that of, [00:21:10] of those courses, like if you’re going to critique those courses and I know you can’t [00:21:15] say Dawson is the same as Speer is the same as. No, they’re not very different.

Richard Lee: They are very.

Payman Langroudi: Very different animals. Yeah. [00:21:20] But one of the things that European dentists seem to complain of is like those sort of courses [00:21:25] tend to put out dentists or overtreat, I think.

Richard Lee: I don’t disagree [00:21:30] with that.

Payman Langroudi: Intervene kind of earlier than we would.

Richard Lee: It can be quite dogmatic, I think. I think particularly [00:21:35] historically, and I think before Dawson came to the UK and they sort of had their [00:21:40] spin on it, I think it was very prescriptive, like this is and even they would say way back in the day, [00:21:45] they’d be restoring everybody to try and get this occlusion on every single tooth and everything. You know, [00:21:50] every tooth got restored, whether it was worn or not. Try and give this perfect ideal occlusion. But [00:21:55] what I could do was I could see what I saw even then, with [00:22:00] the drawbacks of it, like, I don’t I think that’s really destructive dentistry. It was very traditional dentistry, very traditional [00:22:05] Crown prep and that sort of thing. And at the same time, I was doing a lot of the manor [00:22:10] stuff, and I could see and Didier and I could see the conservative [00:22:15] side, and I felt I could meld the two together. So you could have this, you know, [00:22:20] occlusal based philosophy, but in a minimally invasive way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I was going to say [00:22:25] it doesn’t it doesn’t tally very closely to what you ended up as kind of a very minimally invasive. [00:22:30]

Richard Lee: But it but it was it gave me the background and the knowledge that I didn’t have to necessarily [00:22:35] use their recipe, but I but I knew what what was, what was going on.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s kind of it makes me [00:22:40] think of like, it’s kind of like you reckon Picasso could have drawn like a photorealistic [00:22:45] picture, but he chose not to. Yeah. You [00:22:50] know, learning about something and deciding your your view, I think.

Richard Lee: Yeah, absolutely. You [00:22:55] you understand what it is? Yeah. Um. And then it’s what, how you feel, whether it’s philosophically [00:23:00] or whatever you want, you know. No, I’m not going to draw down all these teeth because I don’t think that’s that’s what’s required because [00:23:05] we have. And I think the Americans would say as well, they were probably a bit behind the curve on, [00:23:10] you know, minimally invasive stuff. So, um, I was I remember [00:23:15] going to when he first launched his, um, immediate denting ceiling and all that and, [00:23:20] and doing Chris’s stuff with, you know, the the I hadn’t really done on [00:23:25] layers and that kind of thing in terms of sort of minimally invasive porcelain restorations and suddenly [00:23:30] kind of all going, right, I can put these two together and now I can, you know, be really do all the stuff they’re [00:23:35] saying, but I, but I don’t, I don’t need to cut this down. And that felt a lot better to me. I didn’t feel like I wanted to, to, to [00:23:40] cut teeth down to, to give them this ideal bite because we know that’s not, you know, not [00:23:45] always the answer either. And also, you know, there’s all these different philosophies that it’s not it’s not one size fits all for everybody. [00:23:50] It’s not like, oh, Dawson can fit everybody and or fix everybody. Um, I had friends [00:23:55] who were doing LVI, you know, and and, you know, and that’s a very different thing. And they’re getting [00:24:00] to their mind. They’re getting great results as well. So, you know, it’s it’s yeah, it needs to be a little bit careful. [00:24:05]

Payman Langroudi: So your influences with all these people. Right. Did she ask how [00:24:10] many can you think of a moment or a realisation clinically [00:24:15] that you felt was an aha.

Richard Lee: Um, Actually [00:24:20] clinically, as in the patient in the chair or.

Payman Langroudi: Just like some some aspect of it. I think of it like [00:24:25] I did very little dentistry, so I don’t want much to draw on. But um, I did [00:24:30] a lot of veneers. Yeah. When Rosenthal and all that, that whole thing, that whole moment [00:24:35] and the when when you could see the failure in the interproximal, the staining. [00:24:40] Yeah. And seeing failures is, is [00:24:45] a is a real aha moment.

Richard Lee: Yes it is. It’s as long as you’re open minded enough. [00:24:50] Yeah I think that’s the thing because you can see failure sometimes it’s almost like oh okay. There’s something, something else [00:24:55] is to blame. It was a technician. It’s the patient. It’s whatever. But if you can be open [00:25:00] minded enough to go, that’s failed and not to feel embarrassed [00:25:05] about it, because sometimes the failure is is ten, 15 years down the line and things do fail. But like, why is it failing [00:25:10] now? Is it? Yeah. Like, for example, I don’t know you. I had one [00:25:15] the other day and it was, uh, it was an inlay from, from quite a few years ago, but it had fractured and I [00:25:20] looked at it. It’s like there wasn’t really enough occlusal reduction. You know, you’re trying to be really minimal. You’re trying [00:25:25] to not not do too much. And you think, yeah, I should have just cut some more off the tooth and the ceramic should have been thicker. And [00:25:30] that, that might have been what’s, what’s what’s doing it. But um.

Payman Langroudi: So moments like [00:25:35] that.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what other moments like that.

Richard Lee: Um. [00:25:40] I [00:25:45] think it’s, I think [00:25:50] it’s when it comes to things like, because it gives me the solutions to fix problems [00:25:55] that I didn’t know. So I remember before I did Christmas and stuff that, [00:26:00] that, you know, I got like, I don’t know, a second molar or something with not much clinical crown height that needs [00:26:05] a indirect restoration. It’s like, well, I haven’t got enough room for a core and a porcelain metal. So [00:26:10] being able to do those have a patient in and being able to with [00:26:15] almost no natural retention or resistance form and actually place a restoration that [00:26:20] then you see year after year just functioning and doing and it’s there, um, [00:26:25] was incredibly powerful. Um, you know, adhesion works. It’s brilliant. Um, [00:26:30] obviously choose your right cases, um, and that sort of thing. Um, but that, that [00:26:35] but it’s increments. I’m not sure. I had a big.

Payman Langroudi: Massive I remember for instance, [00:26:40] I remember, for instance, on the same subject, you’re putting a crown on a seven and [00:26:45] it never going into the bite at all, the bite changing and all that. And me having [00:26:50] a moment of, oh my God, occlusion is this whole other thing that I know nothing about. Yeah, yeah, [00:26:55] of course I never went down the Dawson route.

Richard Lee: But I did that because I felt equally with [00:27:00] occlusion that I didn’t know. I didn’t know enough. It’s taught really badly at university. [00:27:05] You know, you got you got occlusion on Prost. You got occlusion on, you know, restorative side of things. You’ve got that they [00:27:10] don’t they don’t always marry up. And you I felt I knew sort of words but I [00:27:15] didn’t really know how that applied to every patient. So to have a that was why I did it, because [00:27:20] I didn’t have a roadmap and I needed to know. And as you say about you choose the thing that you do, [00:27:25] but when you’ve got the map, you can you can plot it out, you can choose what it is, but you need to you need to understand [00:27:30] where those. Yeah, that that what that roadmap is. First of all.

Payman Langroudi: Can we quickly go back to [00:27:35] the Egypt story and tell me what happened in that? Why Egypt? Was it because of diving? [00:27:40]

Richard Lee: Yeah. So I had uh, I had a when I did my elective [00:27:45] at university, I’d gone to Thailand and learned to dive back in the late 90s and, uh, [00:27:50] really enjoyed diving. And I’d gone to Egypt quite a few times diving subsequently, and I loved [00:27:55] it. Um, a place called Dahab, just north of Sharm, um, Red sea. Small Bedouin fishing village, very [00:28:00] chilled, a bit like Thailand, actually. It was on the backpacker trail and the hippy trail in the 60s, and [00:28:05] I loved that place. And I’d gone about 5 or 6 times on holiday, um, knew people there because [00:28:10] there’s loads of people just, you know, Aussies, Kiwis, Saffers, Brits [00:28:15] all just out there just just, you know, doing their thing. And I, I think [00:28:20] what had happened is during all this kind of getting towards this unhappiness that was happening [00:28:25] in, in, in London, um, I’d finally took myself off on a holiday and gone [00:28:30] to Egypt and kind of just realised how unhappy I think I was. [00:28:35] Um, and so it kind of made perfect sense to me when I came back to go, right, well, I’ll [00:28:40] do that thing. No, actually, I will go to Egypt. I thought about it in the past of going to work out there as a divemaster. [00:28:45] So just taking guided dives every day and very quickly, I think within about a week [00:28:50] of getting back, I’d handed my notice in at work and sorting all that stuff out. And about three months later I, [00:28:55] I moved out. Um, the plan was to not spend the entire time there. It was to do [00:29:00] a bit of that. I had a friend getting married in India, so I was going to go there and then carry on down through South East Asia [00:29:05] and, um, and Australia.

Richard Lee: But I loved where [00:29:10] I was so much, and it was such a sort a tight group of friends. And so it was a year of [00:29:15] just diving every day, partying every night. And it was kind of what I needed, [00:29:20] really. Um, and it was just fun. It was it was really, really. And we were living [00:29:25] this kind of crazy life of living, even living in sort of Bedouin, um, camps with, [00:29:30] I mean, concrete, but with camels outside and goats and, you know, and your [00:29:35] landlord was a Bedouin and and it was it was great. And I just I loved that life. But [00:29:40] also through that, that year, I think it gave me a chance to reflect on what it was that I [00:29:45] wanted and did. I want to do dentistry at all. And what I kind of [00:29:50] what sort of settled after that time was that I knew that I, I [00:29:55] didn’t want to stop being a dentist. I just didn’t want to be the sort of dentist that I had been for those [00:30:00] 3 or 4 years, because that wasn’t how I’d sort of trained. It just what had happened, I think. And again, maybe you saved [00:30:05] from NHS work, but but I didn’t I didn’t want to go back to that. So that [00:30:10] sort of crystallised the idea that I was going to go back, back to dentistry, but there was going [00:30:15] to be a big difference. I was going to choose to either do an MSC or do some [00:30:20] further training or something that was going to push me on to the next level because I wasn’t happy with what I [00:30:25] was doing. And that’s what I did. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: What was the first job back in [00:30:30] the UK that you felt like? Now I’m in a place where I’m doing the dentistry I was trained to do.

Richard Lee: So [00:30:35] I was I went back to I went into a mixed practice. So this was about 2003, 2004. [00:30:40] I went into a mixed practice in Sussex Gardens in, um, Paddington. Yeah. [00:30:45] And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: The one at the top.

Richard Lee: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Now, Colosseum.

Richard Lee: I don’t know what [00:30:50] it is, I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know what was it called?

Richard Lee: Uh, it was what it was. It was called then. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Cambridge [00:30:55] court, Cambridge Colosseum.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Richard Lee: Um, so I went there and I. And I started work [00:31:00] there, I think, uh, January. Anyway, um, I was on Chris’s course by the June and again, I, [00:31:05] they had an old cerec machine. Well, it was old because it was long time ago. But they said, go and do a circuit [00:31:10] course. I did a circuit course and it just so happened I was talking to the guy who was running the circuit course and I said, look, I’m thinking [00:31:15] about doing some sort of, I don’t know, further training or I don’t know. He said, oh, you should. He [00:31:20] goes, I’ve got a colleague. You should you should do his course. He’s really popular. I just started his name is Chris or I’ve never heard [00:31:25] of him. He said, just, you know, just send him an email and, um, and see. [00:31:30] And, um, so I did, and this obviously was very early days. They went, yeah, we’ve got a place I think it was [00:31:35] starting next month, the year course. And and I had no idea what to expect. I literally [00:31:40] went on this recommendation and uh, and that so that straight away got me [00:31:45] into that. And luckily the practice I was in, it was it was mixed practice. But [00:31:50] but there were patients there who were very amenable to having private work done. And it allowed me [00:31:55] the work that what I was learning to do on a, on a monthly basis.

Payman Langroudi: I put it into action, put.

Richard Lee: It into action [00:32:00] straight away, because there was people who were willing to to have that and to and wanted, you know, whatever [00:32:05] it was.

Payman Langroudi: It makes a big difference, isn’t it, it? Because you’re a course organiser now, and it [00:32:10] breaks my heart when people come on a course and don’t put it into action.

Richard Lee: Well, you don’t do it. If you [00:32:15] don’t do it quite quickly, you won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Do it at all because.

Richard Lee: You lose your confidence and you need somebody as a bit of a cheerleader there to say, [00:32:20] go on, it’s okay. You’ll be fine. Nothing bad’s going to happen. Just do what you know you’re supposed to be [00:32:25] doing. Um, and I think when you’re. I don’t know, but Chris is very good at giving you that confidence as well, [00:32:30] saying, just do this. It’s fine. You know, the police aren’t going to come if you do this thing you haven’t done before. [00:32:35] It’s fine. You know, you’ve learned how to do it. You’ll be fine. And I loved [00:32:40] putting stuff into practice straight away and it was great. So then you, you know you so that practice was [00:32:45] very good for that. It allowed me to, to to practice many of the things that I, that I was doing. So that was still mixed practice. [00:32:50] And I and I stayed there right up until the contract change in 2006, the NHS [00:32:55] um, and then went to a wholly private practice. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: Which one was.

Richard Lee: That? [00:33:00] Um, well, just before that I’d started doing, um, I did [00:33:05] part time at, um, there’s a guy, uh, called, um, [00:33:10] um, David Cook, and he owns a practice called holistic, the holistic London [00:33:15] Holistic Dental Centre, and that’s on Harley Street. And I was doing a day a week there, actually. So I was weird. I [00:33:20] was doing NHS most of the week, and then I’d do a week, a day, a day on Harley Street.

Payman Langroudi: What does holistic mean? He was removing [00:33:25] amalgams.

Richard Lee: And he is funny. I like David a lot. He, uh, he [00:33:30] was a bit into that kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Um, supplementation.

Richard Lee: Yeah. That bit [00:33:35] bit of that. But he was LVI as well. But he’s a, he’s a very good solid, restorative dentist as well. So but [00:33:40] anyway he, we shared a hygienist between that practice and their practice. So um, [00:33:45] she’d said oh you know you should speak to David. And anyway so I did some time there. But the practice that I went [00:33:50] to after Sussex Gardens was, um, do you remember, uh, your dentist. Yeah, [00:33:55] there was one in Pall Mall. There was one on Hoban. I do, um, I went, I went to work at one in Hoban [00:34:00] for a couple of years.

Payman Langroudi: Which is in the holistic guy. He was so ahead of his time. Yeah. Who is that?

Richard Lee: David [00:34:05] cook. So ahead of his time? Yeah. Still. Still doing his thing.

Payman Langroudi: Back.

Richard Lee: Then. And there’s still people who kind of [00:34:10] like. Yeah. Sort of like that. That sort of thing. So. Yeah. He. Yeah, he did all the stuff with the tens machines and. Yeah. [00:34:15] Um, so. Yeah. And then then I went there and that was when [00:34:20] I was, uh, there as in at the your dentist. I was there for a couple of years, and [00:34:25] then Chris opened London Bridge and then I went to work. I was his first associate. [00:34:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Practice in.

Richard Lee: Yeah. So I was his.

Payman Langroudi: First.

Richard Lee: First associate there, um, [00:34:35] in 2008 or 9. So when it first opened.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:34:40] I didn’t know that.

Richard Lee: Yeah. So it was the I think I think I saw the first patient there. Um, [00:34:45] and. Yeah. So that was all very exciting. That was really, you know, that was incredible because obviously [00:34:50] Chris had been such a big mentor and influence. Um, [00:34:55] obviously a phenomenal, you know, sort of space. So, um, so I went [00:35:00] I went there and I was there, Uh, uh, for a couple of years. [00:35:05] Well, I was there full time initially, but it was very quiet. And in the end I ended [00:35:10] up doing part time in the city. Um, and that got busier and busier and busier and busier in the end. I, [00:35:15] um, I dropped Chris’s practice and did full time in the city just because I was so busy there and [00:35:20] then stayed there for years and years and years and years and.

Payman Langroudi: Years as an associate. Which practice [00:35:25] was that?

Richard Lee: Um, that was Devonshire Square. So it was originally owned by a lady called Selina [00:35:30] Sarfraz. And then she sold it to Mark and Adam of, you know, um, and [00:35:35] then Mark and Adam, um, of Harley Street Dental Group, it became part of that. And [00:35:40] they had it for a couple of three years, and that was a great time. That was really good. And then they sold it to Bupa. So then it [00:35:45] became Bupa, and I was with Bupa right up until I went to New Zealand.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Richard Lee: And then came [00:35:50] back and I’m with Bupa again now.

Payman Langroudi: Bupa again in the same place.

Richard Lee: No, I’ve actually moved. I’m [00:35:55] that bank. So.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I know that practice.

Richard Lee: It’s a, it’s a it’s a big practice that one huge. [00:36:00] It’s about to be bigger as well. It’s they’ve got 13 chairs and they’re about to [00:36:05] add seven more. So it’s a it’s a, it’s a it’s a big place. It’s quite different. But my nurse [00:36:10] I’ve been with my nurse for ten years. I went to New Zealand. She’d moved to bank. My practice manager had moved to bank. A few [00:36:15] people had moved to the bank practice. So when I came back, it was quite a kind of nice fit. So I’m back [00:36:20] with my nurses. That’s nice of of many, many years. So that’s that’s quite a nice to come back to. [00:36:25]

Payman Langroudi: I know in this journey that, you know, you’re going to say, and I agree with you that you’re never you’re never fully [00:36:30] comfortable with your knowledge and you’re always learning. And of course, that’s true, but [00:36:35] how many years in did you start thinking, I really get this, I really know this. [00:36:40] By the time you were in Chris was practice. I mean, you must have been getting massive [00:36:45] benefit from his teaching and seeing the work. And then you’re in these high profile [00:36:50] places where people are kind of saying yes to high end stuff, I guess. Is that right?

Richard Lee: I [00:36:55] guess so, I when do you feel when do you feel like you’re not a fraud and you’re not? You’re [00:37:00] not sort of.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like if I had to throw a number out, I would say ten years Post-qualifying is where I [00:37:05] see people talking with confidence about.

Richard Lee: Well, you see people talking about with [00:37:10] confidence sometimes and you think, goodness, I’m not sure what you’re. Uh, but yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Know when I, when [00:37:15] I am sure, you know, I feel like it takes a good look. I’m sure it’s different for different people, you know, uh, [00:37:20] people under Lewis McKenzie’s tutelage like you and Dipesh maybe accelerated. [00:37:25]

Richard Lee: Yeah, I think I felt. Oh, it’s the thing [00:37:30] that you don’t know. What you don’t know, though, isn’t it? You know, when I qualified from university, I felt very confident [00:37:35] and not in a bad way. I felt I knew my limits, but I what I did know [00:37:40] I felt very confident with because the teaching had been so good and is so hands on at Birmingham. And [00:37:45] then it’s only when you start then pushing on through that you realise you know what you what [00:37:50] you don’t know. Um, and I think there’s, there’s stages of that. I mean now there’s so much I don’t know [00:37:55] because there’s so many bits of dentistry that I don’t do now. You know, I’m generally a restorative dentist. [00:38:00] I don’t place implants. I don’t do any surgery, really. I do crown lengthening, but I don’t [00:38:05] I don’t really do any surgery. I don’t do any endo. Don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Children.

Richard Lee: No. No. [00:38:10] So it’s quite it’s quite a narrow, um, range. And part of that is having been in London [00:38:15] for so many years, and it’s a joy because you get to focus more and more on the things that you like. [00:38:20] But the flip side of that is that you say de-skill, but you [00:38:25] start practising some of the other areas of your of your game. So for example, when I moved to New Zealand, you [00:38:30] realise that they don’t, you know, it’s not London anymore and you can’t be flicking [00:38:35] people off referrals left, right and centre because there isn’t a periodontist in town. You have to send them to Auckland [00:38:40] 2.5 hours away or whatever it might be. So they tend to be much more, [00:38:45] um, all rounders, generalists and quite good at lots of different things. [00:38:50] And so it is, it is interesting. So now I’m a Stay, [00:38:55] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Stay in your lane.

Richard Lee: Stay in my lane a little bit. I think [00:39:00] that can be dangerous. And I think sometimes you need to make sure that you’re, um. It doesn’t [00:39:05] get boring again. And you need to be pushing yourself to do other things. So I probably do need to, you know, think [00:39:10] about other, other bits as well. And I don’t do much digital. So I want to sort of, you know, sort [00:39:15] of push that on as well because otherwise you just yeah, it can get a bit boring.

Payman Langroudi: The only way to enjoy dentistry is to [00:39:20] get better at it, unfortunately.

Richard Lee: Yeah it is. Yeah. Because it’s miserable stuff going wrong and you’re not knowing what going wrong. And you’ve got [00:39:25] an angry, pissed off patient who’s, um, you know, saying this, this, this has not [00:39:30] worked for whatever reason. And you and if you don’t know, then, you know, it’s stressful. [00:39:35] You know, you and I hate stress and I hate I hate uncertainty. That’s the other thing. I like to [00:39:40] know that things are going to work.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I remember you said early cerec. I remember early [00:39:45] cerec with the powder.

Richard Lee: Powder. That’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I remember the first five [00:39:50] cases. Definitely. I would have done better if I hadn’t used Siri.

Richard Lee: Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:39:55] Yeah.

Richard Lee: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And and I thought, you know, those five had cemented in. Number [00:40:00] one, I’d done a disservice to those five patients. Right. And I had to and I never admitted that [00:40:05] to anyone until right this moment. But for the first time, we do anything. [00:40:10] Yeah, but number two, there was a part of my brain saying, I’ve got something completely predictable, [00:40:15] and I’m swapping it for something a little bit unpredictable. Yeah. But but the [00:40:20] ones who stuck at that into the 10th and the 15th. Yeah. Then made that [00:40:25] predictable.

Richard Lee: And then you keep going. It’s trying to do it in a safe environment, isn’t it? And it’s trying to do it in a way that [00:40:30] you’re trying to give your patients the best treatment. But again, if you are pushing [00:40:35] the envelope a little bit and you’re trying to but but you got to do that incrementally and you, you’ve got to sort of do it in a [00:40:40] nice.

Payman Langroudi: But someone like you look, you’re at the cutting edge almost of the thing that you are at [00:40:45] the cutting edge of. You know what I mean? Yeah, I.

Richard Lee: Yeah, I know what you mean.

Payman Langroudi: So you [00:40:50] have you do you remember moments where things like that happen to you. Did you try [00:40:55] a new material and believe the manufacturer and it didn’t work out? Or do you try a new? [00:41:00]

Richard Lee: I remember going back to the stuff about we were talking about magnet, and I think they’d [00:41:05] done a they’d come over and done a lecture in Edinburgh. It was maybe it was 2009 [00:41:10] or something like that, when they first started talking about immediate dentine sealing and they were doing their [00:41:15] very, you know, non retentive stuff. And at the time I’m sure I remember this correctly. [00:41:20] Um, he was doing it in Feldspathic porcelain, his posterior restoration. So, [00:41:25] you know, not pressed. It was powdered and liquid. I think Michelle was doing it and I was [00:41:30] just like, wow, that’s that’s brave because it’s, you know, strong enough, not very strong. But he’s like, no, no, [00:41:35] this is you know, if the occlusion is right, it’s good. And, you know, right thickness. And so I gave that a go. Um, [00:41:40] mine wasn’t as successful as theirs because it just broke.

Payman Langroudi: How long in did [00:41:45] they start breaking like immediately.

Richard Lee: Didn’t do too many. But it was I think I think within 12 months, you know, you [00:41:50] started getting a few fractures. Not on all of them, but yeah, anything that sort of had anything, [00:41:55] any sort of serious force. So you had to replace them. Um, but in terms of new [00:42:00] materials, I think any new material, particularly with composites, we [00:42:05] get this a lot and we get this a lot on the courses, you know, say, what composite do you use? What composite should I use? And it’s like you [00:42:10] just need to know your composites. You know, you need to know how it works, the [00:42:15] opacity, the how thick you need to be layering. You need to be familiar with the material that you’re using. Um, [00:42:20] whatever, whatever it is that you’re using. Um, so you [00:42:25] might get stuff that comes back in, you’re using a material for the first time, it comes back and you’re reviewing it. It’s a bit [00:42:30] grey, or there’s something that’s not quite right, and it’s just dialling it [00:42:35] in and fine tuning your knowledge of of that material, because I think they all work. I don’t think there’s [00:42:40] any composites out there.

Payman Langroudi: The thing with composite, I think the tension with composite is the [00:42:45] tension between strength and aesthetics, insomuch as the material that’s stronger [00:42:50] generally doesn’t aesthetically look as good down the line, and vice [00:42:55] versa. The material that looks best in ten years time isn’t as strong. And I came [00:43:00] to the conclusion I obviously never did as much as you did, but I came to the conclusion that stain is [00:43:05] the number one enemy. Yeah. And so Polish ability was so important. And [00:43:10] then we were taught not to bleach composites. Right. But now I [00:43:15] completely teach to bleach composites so that they don’t pick up stains.

Richard Lee: Keep it looking nice. [00:43:20] Yeah. Um, yeah. Again, this is what we talk about in the course because it’s, you know, the biggest [00:43:25] reason that if, if an anterior composite is placed for aesthetic reasons, the biggest reason of failure is an [00:43:30] aesthetic reason, and it’s usually staining. Yeah. Um, and it’s usually staining in the obvious places. You know, it’s, [00:43:35] it’s approximately because it hasn’t been finished or it’s been it’s somebody has struggled to [00:43:40] get a nice clean margin.

Payman Langroudi: It is a struggle.

Richard Lee: It is. It is.

Payman Langroudi: Unless you know how to do it.

Richard Lee: It is hard. Absolutely. Those [00:43:45] are areas that are hard to get in afterwards and polish. And if you can’t do that, you’re going to get you’re going to get [00:43:50] staining. Um, but again, I think you’re asking about the, um, earlier [00:43:55] about trying to sort of strive for this excellence. Those are the times because your patients will come [00:44:00] back and there might be a tiny bit of staining somewhere and you’re looking at it under magnification going, yeah, because [00:44:05] perhaps that area is not quite as finished as beautifully as I’d like. And that’s why you spend that time [00:44:10] trying to get it as perfect as possible to try and future proof it for however [00:44:15] long you you possibly can. So I don’t think it’s necessarily that there’s been materials or [00:44:20] an early adopter of something that hasn’t worked, but it’s just I think [00:44:25] changing is stressful. When I moved to New Zealand, um, I it was wholesale change, [00:44:30] obviously for everything. You know, it was I moved as a family with kids, moving school.

Payman Langroudi: Why [00:44:35] did you.

Richard Lee: Move? My wife is Kiwi.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: So, um, [00:44:40] she’d been, um, suggesting for a few years that we should. We just. We [00:44:45] had those conversations for a few years. And, uh, and then [00:44:50] it got to the point where I was like, yeah, actually, because we were thinking about moving out of London. So it’s like, if we’re going to do that, then this, this is the time to do [00:44:55] it. While the kids are relatively small, spend time with, with, you know, the family. Um, [00:45:00] so that that was the plan and but that big change as well [00:45:05] as a social change and family and everything else, it was it was a huge professional change because [00:45:10] what I’d built my practice on for years and years and years was I’d had the same ceramists doing sort of [00:45:15] the veneers and or the restorations that that were sort of my style, my signature kind of thing. [00:45:20] Um, and all that lab work. And we’d grown together. So my Christo [00:45:25] and I had, we’d sort of a similar age and we’d sort of, you know, he’d sort of started the lab about the [00:45:30] same time I started using him. So we’d sort of grown together doing all the occlusion stuff as well.

Richard Lee: So [00:45:35] to suddenly have that taken away was actually really, really hard. Um, [00:45:40] and because you’d have patients come in and say, I’ve seen you work on Instagram [00:45:45] or whatever it is? Yes. I’d like, you know, a smile like that. It’s like, well, I’m only part of the picture. [00:45:50] You know, it’s the what you’re seeing is that beautiful work of the ceramics. And we did send a few cases back to, [00:45:55] to, to, to London to, to be done. I mean, to be fair, I did find a couple of really great ceramists [00:46:00] in, in New Zealand. Um, and they produced some, some really nice work. But it’s, [00:46:05] it’s stressful because it’s, it’s not what you’re used to. And as you say, it’s when you change stuff [00:46:10] you want to, you want to control. We’re all control freaks, I think sort of dentists, you know, you want to [00:46:15] control as many things as you can. And as soon as the things that are outside of your control, particularly that used to be in, [00:46:20] um, I find that I find that very stressful.

Payman Langroudi: I used to work in a seaside town. Older [00:46:25] patients over 70. Um, brilliant technician [00:46:30] that I didn’t realise was a brilliant. I was so young. I just thought, that’s a technician. And [00:46:35] these are patients. And, um, I was killing it, I was, I everything was fitting. [00:46:40] Everyone was saying yes to everything because they had money. You know, [00:46:45] the older generation. Yeah. They don’t have sensitivity or, you know, like [00:46:50] even even, even poorly fitted, uh, temporary crowns. They wouldn’t complain [00:46:55] about them or anything because I was a young dentist.

Richard Lee: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then I remember [00:47:00] thinking, well, I can’t spend my life in Folkestone and all the restaurants were shut in at 830, [00:47:05] so I gotta get back to London. I’ve got a job in the city thinking I’ve killed it in Folkestone. I’m going to destroy [00:47:10] in the city. And technician changed. Yeah. And I realised [00:47:15] how brilliant the other guy was. And then the patience, the city boys [00:47:20] compared to these lovely, easygoing older patients.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [00:47:25] It’s.

Payman Langroudi: I suddenly thought I’m a terrible dentist. I, you know, I went from arrogance to just [00:47:30] melting.

Richard Lee: It’s it’s it’s one of those people that you, you you take [00:47:35] for granted when it’s good. Yeah. Because when it’s because it it should fit you, you know, you do your side [00:47:40] of it. And before I’d found Christo, this is what I was experiencing. I felt like I was I was nailing my side [00:47:45] of it. I kind of got to the stage where I was really happy with my preps. I was really proud of my impressions, you know, sort of really crisp [00:47:50] and lovely. And still there was stuff that I didn’t feel was was right from the lab side, [00:47:55] and that was getting really frustrating. I didn’t know what else I’d be calling them saying, like, what else do you need from me? This doesn’t seem to be working. And [00:48:00] it was only when Christa and I kind of got together that suddenly I felt that that [00:48:05] that it then it was it was a balance and it was both working really, really well. But you you take then you take it for granted [00:48:10] because you think, yeah, they should fit, everything should fit. So the day that something doesn’t fit you, you know, whatever. But [00:48:15] but yeah, if, if you’ve got something that isn’t working and you say you’ve had a [00:48:20] few back that that aren’t quite right, the trepidation on a fit day gets really [00:48:25] quite uncomfortable. You’re like, well, I think particularly if they said to you, well, I’m going away for three weeks next week. So [00:48:30] it needs to fit.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s a massive responsibility. Someone’s found you on Instagram and decided [00:48:35] to come to you.

Richard Lee: Well I like those patients more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I think it’s a huge it’s almost a [00:48:40] bigger responsibility than a word of mouth recommendation, because a word of mouth recommendation, as lovely as it’s the [00:48:45] best one, of course, that comes with a degree of bias, right? Like he’s a great guy. Yeah. [00:48:50] You know, someone who’s seen you for six years now refers their best friend. Yeah. There’s there’s some equity [00:48:55] in that. Yes. Whereas someone who’s trusted you on Instagram and come to you, and now you know, you’re [00:49:00] positioned at high prices and now you’re not delivering. It’s upsetting for you. [00:49:05] It is upsetting for you.

Richard Lee: It is you I like, because I got [00:49:10] into Instagram quite late, that I was a very late adopter to that. It was an associate was leaving and [00:49:15] he he was doing it and he goes, oh, you should do it. And I was like, oh yeah, okay. Um, and I just sort [00:49:20] of started doing it, but but I liked the patience I was getting because they had quite [00:49:25] realistic expectations, because they were actually seeing the work that I was doing. That’s that’s the kind of work [00:49:30] that I do. If you like that sort of work, then that’s great. Mhm. Um, you know, you get some idea and they might [00:49:35] go that case I like because I like the, I mean, I attract a particular type of patient, but, you [00:49:40] know, I like the incisal edge on that one. I like the translucency, I like that, but I like the form of that. But [00:49:45] it gives you somewhere to go to with a conversation, you know, rather than somebody coming in who doesn’t know you. And [00:49:50] they say, I want, you know, and it’s it’s quite hard to, to, to pin down. So I liked those [00:49:55] patients in terms of it was they’d selected because they liked your style. [00:50:00] And again, this is why it’s hard if you change something changes like your ceramics changes your style. You [00:50:05] try not to but but things are slightly different. So I like I like those. Yeah. You say word [00:50:10] of mouth is good, but um, but I but people have come and found me through [00:50:15] seeing my work. Um, I, I like that.

Payman Langroudi: Matty talks about [00:50:20] patients who know what they want. Ah, perfect. Yes. The patients who sort of say I trust [00:50:25] you. It’s dangerous. The dangerous ones.

Richard Lee: Yeah. They trust you right up to the point where you do [00:50:30] what you think is right. And that’s not what I wanted. Well, that that that can be that can be quite [00:50:35] challenging. Or they’ll use. So you’ll say, for example, your set of temporary restorations, [00:50:40] you know, ten veneers or ten temporary crowns, whatever it might be. And, [00:50:45] uh, you know, it’s the ones that come back that the review appointments and they’ve got a little piece of paper and they open it up and it’s [00:50:50] this huge, you know, with like tiny, tiny writing. And you go, oh, okay. Right. This is dig [00:50:55] in. We’re going to be here for a while. Um, but I don’t mind if they come. I don’t mind how big that list is. If they come [00:51:00] in and they say, you know, I want this tooth half a millimetre shorter, I want this [00:51:05] have less bulk right here, you know, because these are measurable things that I can do, tic do, [00:51:10] tic do to the more difficult ones are the ones that say, come in and say, um, I [00:51:15] just want them to be more fun. And, you know, there’s [00:51:20] I don’t I don’t know what that means, you know, um, or they’ll say, yeah, [00:51:25] give it give it an emotion. And you say, well, that’s okay. Do you want let’s talk [00:51:30] things that I, you know, know what they are.

Payman Langroudi: You need a guitar. No.

Richard Lee: No. [00:51:35]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, she’s, uh, Basil Mizrahi’s associate. She she talks [00:51:40] about if she can see what the patient is pointing out, then [00:51:45] she will accept that patient, irrespective of any Spidey sense that tells her, don’t [00:51:50] do this. As long as she can see it. Yes, but she goes. The danger is when you can’t see what they’re talking [00:51:55] about.

Richard Lee: I had one recently, and I should have. Red [00:52:00] flags should have been going a bit more. It was. It was a patient who had had several sets of composite [00:52:05] veneers. I think I was the fourth person. And. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So your ego, [00:52:10] your ego is there, right? It does sometimes.

Richard Lee: Sometimes it is. And because you look at it sometimes and, and she’d come [00:52:15] in and they’d been removed the previous set. So they’re half removed half not. So you can’t really tell what’s there. And [00:52:20] but talking about things that you think are quite, you know, it’s like yeah there, you know there it [00:52:25] was hard to floss and my gums are bleeding and you go yeah there is excess around the gum margin. I feel we can improve on this. [00:52:30] So we are still quite cautious. But we did it and we we actually [00:52:35] did it a few at a time. We didn’t do it all in one go. We did a, we did the Centrals then worked back. But um, [00:52:40] but there was a lot of review appointments because and that was the problem is that I couldn’t [00:52:45] see what the issue would be. So when I put the floss, I can hear something. [00:52:50] And I was there with the floss and I was like, tell me if you can hear it now. Now tell me if you can hear it [00:52:55] now. No. And you see, I just I just feel like I can [00:53:00] it’s like I but I can’t hear it. So I and I, and I said if there’s an overhang I’ll remove it. Or [00:53:05] if there’s a ledge, I genuinely I don’t want to start removing composite for the sake of it, because then we’re going to open up a [00:53:10] black triangle and it’s going to be an issue. And it feels really smooth and nice, but sometimes [00:53:15] it’s really hard and you have to have that conversation. It’s like, look, if this, I’ll do whatever is needed [00:53:20] to be done, but if I can’t see it, it’s very difficult and I don’t want to make this worse. So [00:53:25] what happened? Well, I’m very patient, I think. Um, so we had several [00:53:30] appointments. Um, and I just said, look, you know, there’s because [00:53:35] she got a bit sort of like, you know, I don’t feel like you’re listening to me. And I said, well, I feel [00:53:40] like I really am, and I am trying.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, seven appointment.

Richard Lee: Yeah. I said I’m, I’m really trying. Um, [00:53:45] but, you know, it’s difficult. Um, and we in the end, I [00:53:50] did she had the mirror, you know, and I did exactly the thing that she wanted me to do. And I [00:53:55] took lots and lots of photos, and she was happy with that. And then that was that was the last appointment. [00:54:00] But, you know, I look back at those pictures and I’m very happy with the restorations because I think [00:54:05] they addressed everything that was the issue to begin with that I felt. And that she said was was an issue. [00:54:10] And they looked nice. They were very cleanable. They’re very good. But some people, I think when they’ve [00:54:15] had issues with a specific thing, it’s very hard for them to move on [00:54:20] from that. It’s like the classic is the ortho patient who’s had a tooth that’s maybe [00:54:25] in standing, and it gets to be perfectly straight, but they always feel like that [00:54:30] tooth is slightly in standing, because psychologically, that’s always been the been the thing. And it’s almost like you have to bring [00:54:35] that tooth out of the arch slightly and for it to be slightly, you know, for them to kind of get over that [00:54:40] thing. Um, so it can it can be challenging.

Payman Langroudi: Look, cosmetic dentistry. There is a degree of [00:54:45] body dysmorphia in all cosmetic patients. You have to it’s [00:54:50] the right way to look at it anyway, even if it’s. That statement’s incorrect.

Richard Lee: You’re trying to, [00:54:55] you know, at the end of the day, I feel like what I’m trying to do is, is give people a a [00:55:00] really good looking smile that they’re really comfortable and happy with, that I feel happy and proud of as [00:55:05] well. Um, but between those two things, there are, you know, there’s a whole [00:55:10] host of things to, to, to navigate.

Payman Langroudi: Do you ever not do something the patient is [00:55:15] asking for?

Richard Lee: I have not often.

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, I know, maybe you’re not [00:55:20] getting the same types of patients as, uh, you know, people in Manchester or. I don’t want to categorise [00:55:25] it like that, but we sell a lot of Super bright one. Composite in Manchester? Yeah. [00:55:30] Um, but if you get a patient saying, look, I want them whiter than white toilet bowl, white and square. Would [00:55:35] you say I’m not the right dentist for you?

Richard Lee: I do sometimes. Um, but again, this is where Instagram [00:55:40] is really useful because they can see, generally speaking, that isn’t the type.

Payman Langroudi: To attract those.

Richard Lee: Sort of patients. [00:55:45] Um, you know, there are and there are people who do that work and they do it, you know, well, [00:55:50] in terms of it fits well and it’s, you know, it’s cleansing and it’s good. It’s not might not [00:55:55] be your aesthetic.

Payman Langroudi: But from the, from, from the sort of professional perspective. Yeah. Like, I don’t know, [00:56:00] this is a ridiculous comparison. But imagine if you were a carpenter and someone said, make [00:56:05] me a pink bookcase with orange doors. You’re [00:56:10] the carpenter. Yeah. Yeah. So, so. And I understand, you know, [00:56:15] the person’s a walking advert, so it’s not quite like a wardrobe. [00:56:20] It’s.

Richard Lee: No, it can, it can be difficult I there’s not I [00:56:25] Generally speaking, I don’t get those patients. There’s there’s occasionally where [00:56:30] they say, you know, I want them to look fake. I want them to look.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, I want them to look dumb.

Richard Lee: I want [00:56:35] to look. Yeah. I’ve had people say the word fake. I want it to look fake.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve noticed American patients.

Richard Lee: Okay. [00:56:40] And I say, and I, I don’t get I mean very rarely. And and but my [00:56:45] answer will usually be there are people who do that really, really well. And that [00:56:50] isn’t perhaps my forte, but there are people who, you know, that’s that’s more you could you could.

Payman Langroudi: Pull it off.

Richard Lee: Dude, [00:56:55] you could do it. It depends. I think it’s it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because we’ve all moved. But, [00:57:00] but but you stop being the arbiter of what’s what’s what, what’s what’s right, not what’s right, but what [00:57:05] what looks right. You know, so we you know, we know what smile design is [00:57:10] and we and there’s variations on that. But if, if they’re going sort of outside [00:57:15] of that, um, you stop being the judge of whether it’s successful or not [00:57:20] or to a degree. I mean, it’s cosmetic dentistry. So ultimately it’s always the patient that decides. But if it’s [00:57:25] so far away from your parameters and your sort of.

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s really interesting part of that is [00:57:30] you could say, as the expert, I’m telling you, you’re not going to be happy with what you’re saying. [00:57:35] Yeah, that’s that’s a very nuanced excellent point.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think but if you if you, if [00:57:40] the person says, listen, I actually want this and I will be happy [00:57:45] with it, then, you know, informed consent. It’s not your [00:57:50] job to I do I.

Richard Lee: Do try and teach treat them like grown ups and if I [00:57:55] you know and it might be that it suits that person you know that but I, I say I don’t I don’t [00:58:00] generally get those patients which is probably.

Payman Langroudi: Something that comes across.

Richard Lee: No it doesn’t, it doesn’t it doesn’t come up very [00:58:05] often. Um, I have had patients before just because and I’ve just said, look, I don’t think I’m going [00:58:10] to be able to make you happy before you start, but you don’t do that when you’re younger. You know, [00:58:15] it takes years of, you know, because you think you can fix anything. I think when you’re young, [00:58:20] you know, you just that’s you feel there’s nothing that’s not, there’s not there’s not fixable that you can’t [00:58:25] do. And I think it takes a few years for you to go. I don’t think this one. [00:58:30] This one’s for me. And I think you’ll be happier somewhere else. Um, and I think it takes, you [00:58:35] know, if you’re a young dentist and you’re starting to do cosmetic dentistry or getting into that, that, [00:58:40] that side of things, there’s not, it’s hard to say no to something, you know, [00:58:45] because it’s difficult. You know, you’re trying to get these patients, you’re trying to get patients on board to kind of do the things and [00:58:50] practice your skill set. And somebody comes along wanting your services, um, to actually go, [00:58:55] no, is it’s a really big difficult thing, I think. But it’s such a powerful thing. I think it happens [00:59:00] more as you get older that, you know, I think generally in life, saying no is a is a I’m quite a [00:59:05] big people pleaser, which I think to my detriment sometimes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest strength ends up being your biggest weakness [00:59:10] as well. Yeah.

Richard Lee: You just you just can’t constantly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the same reason why people love being your patient and recommending [00:59:15] people to you is that thing.

Richard Lee: Yeah, it’s a really nice guy, you know. And. Yeah. [00:59:20] And I know I’ve got other colleagues who just are, I think, quite brutal, [00:59:25] you know. Um, but they’ve got their patience as well that love them and that’s their style and that’s and that’s how [00:59:30] I’m. I always want to make my patients really happy. I think we all do too. But I will [00:59:35] go I will keep going, keep going, keep going. Um, but it’s great if you can spot them before [00:59:40] you start.

Payman Langroudi: Because that’s all clinically. Um, what’s the I [00:59:45] mean, you’re a teacher. What’s what’s what are some things that most dentists don’t know [00:59:50] that you wish they did in whichever area you want to start? Like, let me give [00:59:55] you an example. What do you think about that? Um, in composites, I wish most dentists [01:00:00] would focus on primary anatomy. You know.

Richard Lee: You probably beat me to that one. Um, [01:00:05] I absolutely agree with composite. I think there is. I don’t know whether [01:00:10] we’re not taught it or we don’t understand it or not. Enough time is spent on it. But dentists are really bad at making teeth look like [01:00:15] teeth.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t crazy, though, isn’t it the amount of time we spend doing other stuff?

Richard Lee: Yeah, I know 99. Yes. [01:00:20] I had actually an aha moment was uh, it was I think it was the first Bacardi conference [01:00:25] I’d ever been to, uh, 2005. I think it was like the second or third one or something. And [01:00:30] Lee Culp, the, you know, the famous, um, technician [01:00:35] ceramist was over from the States and his whole lecture was just on anterior [01:00:40] tooth anatomy, and I’d never really looked at it or studied it or thought about it before. And it was such a [01:00:45] wow kind of moment of like, right, this is what teeth can and should look like. [01:00:50] And, um, but generally speaking, having done lots and lots of hands on courses for [01:00:55] dentists, dentists aren’t great at replicating that. Um, [01:01:00] and I say, I don’t know why. Um, but it’s such an important skill to have, whether you’re fashioning a temporary crown [01:01:05] or you’re doing a composite restoration. Um, primary anatomy, I mean, even, [01:01:10] you know, just getting line angles as well. That’s that’s probably one of my biggest, not bugbears, [01:01:15] but frustrations is you’ll see so many cases where they’ve taken a [01:01:20] photograph and there’s a big you know, the flash bounced off the middle of the tooth because that’s the most round part. [01:01:25] And there’s no transition line into the into the embrasures. So [01:01:30] we spend a lot of time on the course trying to get people to put enough volume on those [01:01:35] transitional angles so that you can actually create something that’s going to reflect light, because if the composite is not there in the first [01:01:40] place, you can’t possibly shape it to reflect light. It’s just there’s just nothing there to to [01:01:45] to shape.

Payman Langroudi: What’s interesting is we at the beginning of our course, we ask, what do you want to get out of this course? And [01:01:50] lots of people talk about colour layering which which [01:01:55] really isn’t the biggest problem.

Richard Lee: No it’s not. And I and I think again, it’s probably cause they don’t understand the [01:02:00] materials they’re using necessarily, you know, because again, if you go back to, you know, showing [01:02:05] the work that he did in the 90s and he’s showing like a 20 year review or something, well, he didn’t [01:02:10] have all the fancy composites that we had or the systems. You know, he kind of tried [01:02:15] different ones out and worked out, which were more opaque and enamels. And it still looks. It still [01:02:20] looks good because you say the primary anatomy is good and the the finish is good and everything else but the colour is pretty good [01:02:25] as well because he understood the materials that he was using. So it’s, it’s [01:02:30] all yeah, it’s whenever you show a nice composite that’s what composites that as though. [01:02:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s the composite that was the.

Richard Lee: You know and and yes obviously certain composites I think are [01:02:40] sort of lend themselves to, you know, to some nicer restorations. But [01:02:45] it’s not about the composite, you know.

Payman Langroudi: While we’re on it though, did you see Pascal Venuti’s little rant [01:02:50] recently? The last couple of days? A few days. So he’s a patients come in with a broken [01:02:55] glass for type situation, and he’s fixed it in half an hour. And he [01:03:00] said this shouldn’t take longer than half an hour and you shouldn’t layer it, and you shouldn’t try and make it look like the [01:03:05] prettiest tooth in the world, because this is plastic and plastic, and within two years, it’s all going to look [01:03:10] the same. If you want to get it right, do it with porcelain, right? And patients who [01:03:15] can afford it should definitely have porcelain. Right? And then you see the tooth and it’s it’s [01:03:20] a perfectly competent filling. Yeah. Like, you know the line angles there and everything, but but [01:03:25] it’s not even trying to look like the tooth next door with a whatever mamelons. Which he said, [01:03:30] oh, if I include the mammals, I would have weakened this plastic even more. What do you think [01:03:35] about that? I mean, there is a point there. There is a point there. Insomuch as time is money, time [01:03:40] is cost to the patient. I still think it comes back to consent.

Richard Lee: I [01:03:45] completely agree with you. Who are we to say what the patient be spending their money on? Yeah. And [01:03:50] who are we to say that? Okay, so if you’ve got a strategy that’s going to smash out single, [01:03:55] you know, veneer on a tooth and get it right first time every time, then that’s that. That would be nice as well. But [01:04:00] I think to be so prescriptive can be very difficult. You know, that everybody should have a ceramic [01:04:05] if they could afford it or, you know, competent, don’t spend long because it’s going to look pretty rubbish. I think [01:04:10] neither of those things are true. And life isn’t black and white, and there’s lots of grey in the middle. And I [01:04:15] think composite can look great for many, many years. And you know, we all know how and why. So, um, [01:04:20] yeah. Yeah. You know, don’t give that much.

Payman Langroudi: So but [01:04:25] there is you know, you’re known for composite to some extent, but you’re massively good at ceramic. [01:04:30]

Richard Lee: To composite became a thing because I, uh, [01:04:35] so when I first started, the very first layering I did again was on Chris Saw’s course. That’s where it first started. [01:04:40] Um, and I really enjoyed it. I liked the artistic side of things. I wanted to do art a level, but it didn’t [01:04:45] fit with physics or something silly. So. So I like the, um, [01:04:50] the arty side of things, and it’s nice you get to, you know, I find it very relaxing. You have an hour or two in the [01:04:55] surgery and the music’s on and the rubber dams on. It’s very it’s very relaxing. Um, and I like [01:05:00] that. So I think because I was doing more and more of it, I kind of became known for, for doing, for doing [01:05:05] composite. But yeah, it was in terms of my day that wasn’t it wasn’t like I do composites [01:05:10] 95% of the day. I mean, I’d probably do more now because for that reason, it’s a self-fulfilling [01:05:15] prophecy, isn’t it? You put more out there and people go, oh, I’ll send you composites. But I do do a lot of ceramic, and I really [01:05:20] enjoy doing porcelain work. And again, it’s a joy when you’ve got such a great, great ceramics to work with.

Richard Lee: But [01:05:25] I don’t think you can do one or the other. I don’t think it’s all, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, there’s [01:05:30] different. There’s the right thing for different people. And I, I spent this morning taking off some really [01:05:35] average composite veneers for somebody. And again it was their third or fourth one. [01:05:40] Um she’d flown over. I was very lucky. She’d flown over, I think from Qatar [01:05:45] to see me. And she was having, she’s having ortho as well. So we’re having to take all the composite off. Then she’s [01:05:50] having the ortho get teeth in the right position. And then actually I’m going to do porcelain because she’s had loads of goes [01:05:55] at this at the composite. And the teeth aren’t great underneath as in there’s, you know, it just I think it’d be better, you [01:06:00] know, less maintenance, less. She’s had enough of it, you know, just get it done [01:06:05] in porcelain and it’s going to last a good long while. So I don’t think it’s, you know, I have patients, I do [01:06:10] do lots of composite, but I also love doing doing porcelain as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Look, I often think about [01:06:15] my, uh, brother. He he had veneers, but he had imperfecta. [01:06:20] He had veneers put on at the Eastman when he was 16. And, uh, now he’s [01:06:25] 53 and, uh, they’re still there. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Amazing. [01:06:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It would not have managed that.

Richard Lee: No, no, it really wouldn’t. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: There would [01:06:35] have been 6 or 7 events. Right.

Richard Lee: And it’s funny, you know, people say again I love it because it’s you can [01:06:40] beat me. Patients like the idea that you’re not going to drill teeth or pretty much everything I do with composite, [01:06:45] I don’t tend to do any tooth reduction. Um, but I don’t there’s a lot [01:06:50] of people putting a lot of composite on a lot of teeth out there, and you see it and it’s it’s [01:06:55] okay. And but a lot of it, I think, or I worry about five [01:07:00] years down the line because a lot of this stuff’s going to have to be taken off and I.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [01:07:05] the thing is, it’s such an unforgiving material. Yeah. That it’s is five years is quite, quite a long time, right. [01:07:10] You know, small little, little potholes within [01:07:15] five months could get black. And they can, they can.

Richard Lee: Yeah. It’s and there’s a lot it’s [01:07:20] a bit of a race to the bottom as well for some people with the.

Payman Langroudi: Pricing.

Richard Lee: Pricing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s mad. [01:07:25]

Richard Lee: It is. But you’re going to get what you. But again it’s people will will you know right. I’m going to pay £150 [01:07:30] a tooth.

Payman Langroudi: And I don’t even like the idea. Yeah. That it’s they say half [01:07:35] the price of a porcelain. I don’t even like that. Because from the operator perspective, [01:07:40] it’s much harder than doing a porcelain than it is much harder it is. I’d say it takes [01:07:45] longer and it’s harsher. Harder. I there’s no lab fee but you [01:07:50] know.

Richard Lee: Yeah. No it is it is much harder. I, I don’t do [01:07:55] many, uh, like.

Payman Langroudi: Multiple.

Richard Lee: Teeth. No, no, I love doing composite and I love [01:08:00] working on the front sort of for maybe 60, but I very rarely will. I do sort of 5 to 5 in composite. [01:08:05] I find it really some people just smash out in a brilliant at it. You know, there’s [01:08:10] loads of people who are really good at it and just seem to to just do that all day long and really nail it. I [01:08:15] find it much more difficult, as you say, and I’d rather do that sort of thing [01:08:20] in porcelain if I can. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Expand on New [01:08:25] Zealand for me. Okay. So yeah, change wasn’t comfortable.

Richard Lee: It [01:08:30] was difficult. I’m not I’m not a fan of change anyway. Generally speaking, I’ll have the same thing for [01:08:35] lunch for like three years. I’m there. Yeah, yeah yeah I, I’m not. Yeah I’m not [01:08:40] a big fan of change but um New Zealand. So it’s. Have [01:08:45] you been. No it’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s I could see.

Richard Lee: It’s I mean it is spectacular. [01:08:50] It’s it’s one of the most beautiful countries. Um, it’s it’s [01:08:55] isolated and that’s one of the things. So, um, you’ve got half the population [01:09:00] of London spread out over the landmass of the United Kingdom. Mhm. I think two [01:09:05] thirds of those are on the North Island and about two thirds of them are in Auckland. So it’s it’s pretty [01:09:10] sparsely populated except Auckland which is a horrible big [01:09:15] traffic jam. It’s just it’s very difficult to get around. It’s it’s hard. We lived in a place called [01:09:20] uh, Tauranga which is on the North Island East coast, Bay of plenty. [01:09:25] It’s about 2.5 hours. Three hours south, uh, east of of of [01:09:30] Auckland. Very beautiful. When we went over, we, uh, we had I had a job offer from [01:09:35] Auckland and a couple of other places, and we decided to go for a much smaller place because we thought, let’s [01:09:40] do the beach thing. Let’s, you know, we’ve done city good life. Yeah. Let’s see, you know, let’s let’s really embrace [01:09:45] the whole the whole thing. And it is it’s a stunning beach and it’s and it’s and it’s beautiful. [01:09:50] Um, it’s not Australia. So people often think like New Zealand sunshine.

Richard Lee: Yeah. [01:09:55] We had so much rain. I mean, we had the wettest winter on record when we were there. I mean, and when it rains, [01:10:00] it just rains and it will rain for like six days constantly a heavy, heavy, heavy [01:10:05] rain. So lots of I mean, it’s very green, so lots and lots of rain. Um, there’s lots of great things [01:10:10] about New Zealand. Um, is it is a it’s funny with the dentistry [01:10:15] because you’ve got one dental school, so everybody kind of knows each other to a point, you know, because [01:10:20] they’ve all had the same teachers. They’ve all been there at the same time probably. Um, but [01:10:25] it’s, it is a small I went to the nsda, I spoke at uh, at the conference and then [01:10:30] went to the thing after. And obviously everyone, you know, it’s all kind of just meeting up. They’re all sort of it’s very tight. It’s very it’s very it’s very [01:10:35] that’s very nice. Um, but it’s just I felt quite isolated. I mean, we [01:10:40] both did, both myself and my wife, um, she, she’d been in London for about 15 [01:10:45] years, so it was quite, you know, going back there that felt.

Payman Langroudi: She’s not Dental, is she?

Richard Lee: No, no. Dental. [01:10:50] But she. But she’d been, um, here for a long time so that, you know, going [01:10:55] back there, you know, things change a little bit. And, uh, we got we finished Covid [01:11:00] here, so we just finished all the lockdowns here and we went and then we did Covid in New Zealand because they [01:11:05] just started it, started it there. Uh, so it was it [01:11:10] was fun. But it we felt just I think I felt a bit professionally isolated, [01:11:15] a bit quite geographically isolated. It’s like four hours, 3.5 hours to get to Australia, you know. [01:11:20] So for a change of, of culture, it’s, it’s it’s a long way to go. Um, you [01:11:25] know, they’re very proud little island nation and it’s and there’s lots of cool things about it. But [01:11:30] I love London. I, you know, it was a, it was, it was quite the gear change going from London [01:11:35] to, to, to there. Um, for, for all sorts of reasons. Um, so [01:11:40] we did it and it was, as I say, it was great to, to, you know, see the family and that’s, [01:11:45] you know, that side of the family and the kids to sort of see those grandparents and have all that.

Richard Lee: And I did cool stuff, [01:11:50] like we had a, we had a jet ski and we had a I went on big treks with my brother in law [01:11:55] through just like stunning scenery, just, you know, you look back at the photos you can’t quite believe, like, what this place [01:12:00] is like. Um, but after about a year or so, maybe 18 [01:12:05] months, we said, well, where do we want to wake up in 5 or 10 years? Where do we want the kids to, to, to grow [01:12:10] up. And we just felt that that actually UK, we, we preferred overall. Um, so [01:12:15] yeah, we made our decision and came and came back. So yeah, it was a funny one because I think people thought we were making the [01:12:20] move forever. And what we’d always said was, we’ll do two years and we’ll see. And if it’s if we prefer it, then [01:12:25] that’s great. We’re there. And if we prefer to here, well, when we’ve done that and that’s, that’s been really cool. And [01:12:30] then, you know, we’ve had that adventure and then we’ll, then we’ll come back.

Payman Langroudi: Did you how long before [01:12:35] you went, did you know you were going I mean, did you did you have contacts out there. Were [01:12:40] you started putting feelers out in the Dental?

Richard Lee: Yeah. So I sort of properly started putting [01:12:45] feelers out probably about six months before we went. Um, so again, really [01:12:50] small, you know, kind of everyone knows each other, but I, I think I just sort of looked to [01:12:55] where we thought about living and send a couple of emails off. Um, [01:13:00] but you know, all the, you know, the cliches about New Zealand, that it’s, you know, 30 years behind. [01:13:05] So and it is a bit true in some bits in terms of dentistry as in the, [01:13:10] the cosmetic revolution was a bit slower there. It’s coming and it’s building and it’s, it’s getting there. [01:13:15] But it’s not like it is. It is here. Having said that, they’re much more onto digital and all that [01:13:20] kind of stuff because they’re so isolated. They haven’t got labs next door and that kind of thing. So they’re all doing like [01:13:25] scanning and milling and and all that, you know, they do all that stuff. So it’s not fair to say that they’re already [01:13:30] behind. Um, so I’d sent a few emails out and then there was, um, there’s [01:13:35] a big corporate, they’re called Lumino, which is, um, a bit like Bupa, I suppose, [01:13:40] all over the all over the country. And they had a sort of flagship cosmetic [01:13:45] practice in Auckland, where, funnily enough, there was a dentist there who, um, yeah, [01:13:50] kind of cosmetic. He’d done like sort of ten years younger and that sort of stuff. And he was retiring and they were quite keen for me to sort of come in and [01:13:55] sort of slip in behind, behind him. Um, and we almost did that. And I had the [01:14:00] contract and we were going to sign and, um, then we just had a last moment of like, let’s not do Auckland, [01:14:05] let’s do the beach.

Richard Lee: And and we did that. Um, and I, you know, again, sliding doors, [01:14:10] you don’t know which whether one would have been preferable to the other because we, we, we enjoyed where we were. But [01:14:15] so that practice I went to was a um, a smaller practice. So, but [01:14:20] it built like the cosmetic stuff sort of built and um, less indirect stuff [01:14:25] and more composite stuff. So again, um, cost [01:14:30] wise, you know, New Zealand, they don’t spend quite so much money on their, on their teeth. Um, so not [01:14:35] everybody was up for doing porcelains, but that was great to do. I did a lot of, um, [01:14:40] injection moulding with, with composites with loads of great cases with that and took train the [01:14:45] labs in what I wanted for that sort of stuff. So, so that was quite interesting. And then did the courses [01:14:50] when I was out there as well. So I was running, running composite courses initially just a two day, Today direct. [01:14:55] And then we’re doing a one day injection moulding one as well. So that’s [01:15:00] been quite nice because that I’m going back um, two weeks time. Um, [01:15:05] going to Sydney. Yeah. So I’ve got a three days teaching in Sydney. So doing [01:15:10] the. Yeah, the freehand and the one day injection moulding. There’s a couple of places left on that one and then [01:15:15] to Auckland to do the same again. And that’s full with quite a long waiting list that one. So that’s [01:15:20] that’s great. And that’s a really nice thing.

Payman Langroudi: To which composite do you use for the for the injection moulding.

Richard Lee: Um, [01:15:25] um, genial. Um injectable. Yeah. Uh, universal injectable. So, [01:15:30] yeah, you know, there’s the flow and there’s the injectable, but the, um, the injectable usually. [01:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: But they’re.

Richard Lee: Both, they’re both they’re both really composite. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And do you do that alternate [01:15:40] do.

Richard Lee: Uh, yes I either do every other two sometimes. Sometimes tooth by tooth but usually every other tooth. [01:15:45] But I, I often will. My wax ups tend to be not digital. We tend to have them analogue. [01:15:50] Um, so I don’t do every other, you know, those models. There’s every other tooth, but we just. Yeah, there’s ways [01:15:55] of doing it. Um, so that’s a nice that’s a nice technique. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you not concerned [01:16:00] for the strength of the flowable?

Richard Lee: No, it’s incredibly strong. It’s remarkable. It’s more wear resistant [01:16:05] than than, uh, paste composites. It’s the [01:16:10] literature now is. It’s all there. Um, it works incredibly well. I use it in [01:16:15] big wear cases. Restoring wear cases. Yeah. Um, it holds up remarkably [01:16:20] well.

Payman Langroudi: Not any flowable that one.

Richard Lee: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because flowable, you know, the flowable is normally flowable [01:16:25] because it hasn’t got much filler. Yeah. Um, where this is got lots and lots of filler. Same amount of filler as a paste composite, [01:16:30] but just the way it’s salinated and the way that it the fillers can move means that it’s actually, you [01:16:35] know, you can push it through the end of a syringe, um, and it and it flows.

Payman Langroudi: I think the Japanese, they’ve [01:16:40] figured something out about desalination that makes that possible because the [01:16:45] papers I saw on it, it’s only the Japanese manufacturers that have got. But but [01:16:50] all of them. Right.

Richard Lee: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s some genius. That’s right. Come up with.

Richard Lee: Something. There [01:16:55] is another one, isn’t there? That there? Yes. Because obviously this is juicy stuff. So that’s all. Um. So. Yeah. [01:17:00] No, it’s incredibly strong. It’s remarkable stuff.

Payman Langroudi: I think Tokuyama has a similar thing. Shofu has a similar [01:17:05] thing. Some genius somewhere in Japan. Yeah. Or maybe there’s a there’s a, you know, one [01:17:10] of these contract manufacturers who’s supplying all of them. All of them has the genius for the nation [01:17:15] stuff.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel when you, when you decided to come back that, [01:17:20] you know, was that like an emotional decision, like or not. Did you was it was it [01:17:25] very simple?

Richard Lee: Uh, it was a very simple decision. Yeah. We we both felt. Which was good. We both felt exactly [01:17:30] the same way. Um, so that was. That was good. Um, we’d come back about [01:17:35] 18 months in. We’d come back for a month recce to have a look at where we wanted to be and [01:17:40] that sort of thing. And that was really nice. It was summer. We’d come back to London and [01:17:45] that felt lovely. It felt really, and we knew even we’d already decided. But coming [01:17:50] back sort of reinforced that, yes, this is this is what we’ve missed.

Payman Langroudi: But then you didn’t live in London, did you? So [01:17:55] you’re living in Winchester?

Richard Lee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we didn’t come back to London. I like London, but, um. [01:18:00] Yeah, we decided for lots of reasons, really, that, um, we’d been looking around [01:18:05] just to be just outside London, looking that sort of commuter bit. Um, and [01:18:10] Winchester had been on the list before we’d left for New Zealand anyway as a, as a possible. And [01:18:15] we’d gone and had a look at that and we just really liked it. It was enough going on. There’s, you know. [01:18:20]

Payman Langroudi: Is there, is it a good restaurant and good everything.

Richard Lee: You need. Yeah. Great restaurants, great pubs, beautiful [01:18:25] walks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The good thing is the quality of restaurants has gone up nationally. Yeah. Yeah. 5 [01:18:30] or 6 years ago. Yeah. I mean I caught this marvellous coffee [01:18:35] in Aberdeen. I wasn’t expecting to go. Yeah. And this was about eight years ago and I remember, [01:18:40] I remember thinking this was this is new. Yes. You know something? Something’s changed. [01:18:45] Yeah. Something’s changed. And, and I go all over the country now and I get great food in many [01:18:50] towns.

Richard Lee: But it’s, it’s, it’s it’s a quite foodie place and it’s got, um, beautiful pubs. I mean, [01:18:55] it’s the old capital of Wessex and England. It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s beautiful up.

Richard Lee: There. Yeah. I mean, [01:19:00] so, so it’s stunning. So, um, and also you’re we’re really well placed for the coast [01:19:05] and the Isle of Wight and New Forest and all these sort of places that we don’t, we haven’t really explored [01:19:10] very much. So and I was saying that the commute actually works really well. It’s um, we live [01:19:15] five minute walk from the station. It’s 57 minutes on the train to Waterloo, and, [01:19:20] um, bank is not not very far from there. So that’s that’s not bad.

Payman Langroudi: You say that three hours a day, [01:19:25] though. Yeah. Do you work five days a week or four days a week?

Richard Lee: I’ve done for forever. I’m a big proponent of [01:19:30] Wednesdays off. Wednesdays are the most important days. Oh, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I like a weekend day.

Richard Lee: The weekends [01:19:35] long enough. You’ve already got two days.

Payman Langroudi: I like long weekend every weekend. But but, but.

Richard Lee: But I get, like, sort [01:19:40] of too many weeks.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: So it’s, you know, it’s a day and then and then you get that, that break in [01:19:45] the middle is I love it sometimes during the school holidays I forget it’s flipped around and I do Monday, [01:19:50] Tuesday, Wednesday and then Thursday off on Friday and I the three days in a row just [01:19:55] kills me. But, you know, dentistry is hard. Dentistry is a physical, [01:20:00] hard profession. And I know we’re not down a mine, but it is, you know, it’s it’s physically [01:20:05] well, you know, it’s not, you know, I mean, come on. But it’s, it’s I think it’s mentally quite draining. [01:20:10] I think it’s physically quite draining. And if you’re doing long appointments or seeing a high volume of patients, [01:20:15] um, five days is too much. Yeah. You know, and maybe when you, you know, this is what I found when I [01:20:20] was, you know, 23 and 24, it’s you can do it for a bit, but at some point something stops [01:20:25] working quite so well.

Payman Langroudi: Have you actively decided never to own a practice, or [01:20:30] is it just the way the chips have fallen?

Richard Lee: A bit of both, I think. I think you do. If you’d have asked me five years ago, will [01:20:35] you buy a practice? I’d probably gone. Yea, but that in the same way that people say when they’re young, you [01:20:40] know, we get married, people go, yeah, you know, it’s that kind of because that’s what people do is they go through. But I [01:20:45] think I realised the last few years that it doesn’t really hold that much [01:20:50] interest for me that having the business. Um, I’ve been fortunate that I’ve worked in practices [01:20:55] that have given me everything that I want. Um, you know, so great staff [01:21:00] and, you know, and the patients come to me. So that’s [01:21:05] that, that that works well without all the, the headache of, you know, some people obviously [01:21:10] just, you know, that’s what they want. They want to control all of that, control their environment, control everything. But I’ve, [01:21:15] I’ve never really felt if there’s ever been a practice where that’s not been quite right, [01:21:20] then I’ve just I’ve just moved practice and then found where I’m happy. Um, and [01:21:25] then when the kids were younger, I loved being able to leave work and get home and see them again. [01:21:30] Doing the four days was amazing. I felt very privileged that I could have, you know, almost half [01:21:35] the week with with the kids when they were little, because that that time just goes in, in no time, [01:21:40] you know.

Payman Langroudi: And another one of the cliches, which is actually real life, It.

Richard Lee: Is. It is, you know, it’s the whole the [01:21:45] whole thing. The days are long and the years are short. I mean, they, they it flies and you can’t you can’t [01:21:50] redo those, you know. So we were very mindful. I was very mindful of that right from the get go. [01:21:55] And I didn’t want to be. Yeah I mean everyone makes their own choices [01:22:00] for different reasons. But that that was what I, what I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: So was your partner do.

Richard Lee: Uh, she’s a [01:22:05] medical secretary now. She was at home with the kids for about ten years. Yeah, she was a practice manager. We met [01:22:10] because she was a practice manager.

Payman Langroudi: At one of the places you worked. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Richard Lee: Um, [01:22:15] so, um. Yeah. So that. So then [01:22:20] having the practice, I mean, it would have made sense to have a practice because, um, you know, that that [01:22:25] that would have worked out.

Payman Langroudi: If you ruled it out now.

Richard Lee: Yeah. You’re too old, I think, for that sort of.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t [01:22:30] say I wouldn’t say that, but but there is I come across a lot of dentists. Right. And and the successful [01:22:35] super associate is one of the happiest [01:22:40] types I meet mean, because like you say, you haven’t got the hassles [01:22:45] of seems.

Richard Lee: To be the.

Payman Langroudi: People hassles.

Richard Lee: Yeah, absolutely. The thing that I hear people moan about the [01:22:50] most are people, you know, the staffing issues, whether it’s technicians and labs, whether it’s, [01:22:55] um, practices. Um, I think, you know, I’ve spoke to long term associates [01:23:00] who’ve bought into their practice and said it’s the worst thing I ever did. Um, and I think [01:23:05] maybe also because in the back of my mind, maybe for a long time there was that possible New Zealand move as well. [01:23:10] So there was kind of maybe that was just sort of like, well, we’re going to probably be shifting at some point. So [01:23:15] but all that together, I was like, no, actually I, I love [01:23:20] the, um, the craft of dentistry. I really do [01:23:25] enjoy the that um, I, I, I’m not that bothered by, by [01:23:30] the business side of things. Um, it doesn’t, it doesn’t, it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I think you’d be quite good at it though.

Richard Lee: I [01:23:35] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know. I think you would, you know, the communication side, you know, with you, it’s [01:23:40] very, very natural. Yeah. And so that’s all it is? Yeah. Okay. But but [01:23:45] but but but but but like I say, one of the happiest constituencies I come across are [01:23:50] those super associates. How how confident are you when I say super associate. Normally what I mean by [01:23:55] that is patients come to you. Yeah. How confident are you if you change practice tomorrow that [01:24:00] you’d be busy enough to.

Richard Lee: Well, obviously it’s been a lot of change the last [01:24:05] few years. I’ve been sort of living that.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been living that thing.

Richard Lee: Yeah. So it’s funny, I think [01:24:10] if because when I. Before we moved to New Zealand, I was at the practice in the city for ten, [01:24:15] 12 years, and if I’d have moved, I think, yeah, I’d have, you know, nothing much would have changed. It would [01:24:20] have just all kind of followed. Obviously when you tell people you’re leaving, the hemisphere is [01:24:25] not even the country, you know, um, it changes, you know, you, you I [01:24:30] passed on I actively passed on those patients to all sorts of different people. Um, [01:24:35] and then you come back and I’ve seen some of them, Um, but, you know, a couple of years on, [01:24:40] unless I’ve done, like, a full rehab on someone, like, you know, if I’ve done the odd online things here and there [01:24:45] the last couple of years, I’ve seen somebody else. No. It’s fine. And a lot of the work that I do is it’s [01:24:50] that classic, you know, I’ve got a dentist, and I just want you to do the thing that you that you [01:24:55] do. So they often aren’t with me for a very long time. Sometimes they end up sort of staying, and they want [01:25:00] to see you. Um, you know, they’ve found you specifically for the thing, but, um. Yeah, [01:25:05] it’s not as though I’m, I’m reliant on a big, solid [01:25:10] list of patients, but but I am reliant on the, the turnover of new ones that are coming in for [01:25:15] the, for the treatments. Um, so I do feel so. Yeah. So when we went to New [01:25:20] Zealand obviously that, you know, there’s obviously a lag, there’s always a, there’s always a lag as you, as you build up. Because even [01:25:25] coming back this time you see people and they’re needing you [01:25:30] know, they need the ortho first. They need to get that sorted out first or get the. So these.

Payman Langroudi: Cases the ortho. [01:25:35]

Richard Lee: Uh, do a bit of Invisalign, but but you know, if it’s anything serious, it goes [01:25:40] off to the orthodontist. Um, so these patients, there’s [01:25:45] a lot of, you know, there might be six months or a year of stuff going on before I get to do my bit anyway. [01:25:50] So there’s always that sort of lag. But now we’re kind of through that and it’s, you know, and we’re very busy [01:25:55] again. Um, so yeah, I feel, I feel comfortable and that, [01:26:00] that yeah, they, you know, they come and see.

Payman Langroudi: Another feature of Super Associates [01:26:05] is that they can kind of negotiate better terms with, uh, practices. [01:26:10] Do you do that? Do you, do you, do you go in saying I am Richard Lee? [01:26:15]

Richard Lee: Um, I do, um.

Payman Langroudi: What do you not.

Richard Lee: I [01:26:20] mean, the business is the business at the end of the day, isn’t it? There’s overheads and there’s everything else. So there’s [01:26:25] only a limited wiggle room within that. So, yeah, there’s always a bit of negotiation. [01:26:30] Um, so that’s. Yeah, there’s, there’s always a bit of chat around that, but, [01:26:35] uh, but I don’t go in with a crazy sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: And you get referrals. You must do.

Richard Lee: So. So [01:26:40] what’s worked really well for me with Bupa is that, um, before, again, before we left New Zealand, I’d say 90% [01:26:45] of the patients I’d see were referrals. Um, yeah. So, um, which [01:26:50] is great. So again, with Bupa, because there’s lots of practices around and there’s lots of people [01:26:55] doing different things, but not necessarily wanting to do the things that that I do. So I’ll get lots of internal referrals [01:27:00] within Bupa. Then there’s the external referrals, then there’s the self-referrals of the patients. So that that works really well for [01:27:05] me. Um, so I yeah, there’s lots of people who are referring who used [01:27:10] to refer to me, who are now referring to me again. So that’s that’s really nice. And it’s nice, it’s a nice thing [01:27:15] to be able to, you know, to treat these.

Payman Langroudi: People. Of course. Mark. Ellen. Yeah.

Richard Lee: I heard [01:27:20] him on this. Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah. I thought you spoke really well. He was a really nice guy. Yeah, [01:27:25] yeah, yeah. They had, um, they had a Bupa live thing, uh, in Wales. In Wales. [01:27:30]

Payman Langroudi: Did you go?

Richard Lee: No I couldn’t, I.

Payman Langroudi: Heard it was amazing.

Richard Lee: It was um. Yeah. They had they had a few good speakers, [01:27:35] didn’t they? Um, but it was, uh, little boy’s, uh, party weekend. Birthday [01:27:40] party. So, uh, so I couldn’t go, but no Mark Allen. And I’ve not met him in In the Flesh, but I liked. [01:27:45] I like what he said. It was it was good, but it was an interesting one I do. They’ve been good to me. Um, [01:27:50] I think it’s, uh, as I say, Devonshire Square for years and now and now [01:27:55] at, um, at Bank. Um, I’ve. Yeah, they sort [01:28:00] of. They look. They look after me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s get to the darker parts of the board. I [01:28:05] kind of like the question of your [01:28:10] darkest day professionally, which felt. Which one [01:28:15] felt like that?

Richard Lee: Goodness. I [01:28:25] don’t know whether I’ve had a dark, um. I mean, [01:28:30] we all have ups and downs. Um, whether there’s one specific day that was [01:28:35] way darker than all the others and stands out for its blackness, that was so [01:28:40] bad. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Did you never get sued?

Richard Lee: No. Luckily. [01:28:45] Touch wood. I’ve never. I think we’ve all had a letter at some point, but my last letter [01:28:50] was about 15 years ago. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Your most difficult [01:28:55] patient. Was that the one that you mentioned?

Richard Lee: No, that’s not even that one. I, um, [01:29:00] I think you see, again, going back to referrals, people refer stuff to me that it’s either difficult, [01:29:05] difficult cases, so complex cosmetic cases or difficult [01:29:10] patients or the combination of the two. Um, so they all [01:29:15] not they all but but there’s many of them that are, that are perhaps need careful handling. [01:29:20] But I think I’m quite good at that. That’s probably like what. You know, one of the reasons that that that [01:29:25] works for me.

Payman Langroudi: Although you’ve also been pre-sold by the referrer. Right. You’re you’re in a position of advantage. [01:29:30]

Richard Lee: Very much so. They come in sort of, you know, sort of I’ve been told that you’re, [01:29:35] you know, so that’s a nice that’s a nice position to, to to to be in. Um. [01:29:40]

Payman Langroudi: But the most difficult patient doesn’t come to mind.

Richard Lee: Not off the top of my head. No. I’ve [01:29:45] been fortunate that, um. Let me have a little think about about that there. [01:29:50] I’m old enough to to say try. And [01:29:55] you can usually spot things where a thing. You think things might go south quite quickly. [01:30:00] Um, so I try and be quite circumspect to that and say. And it’s more difficult when you’re quiet. [01:30:05] You know, you tend to just kind of like, you know, you just see patients. I think when you’re very busy, it’s much [01:30:10] easier to say, to say no to things. Um, and you’re, you’re perhaps more, more [01:30:15] risk averse.

Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s get to our more traditional question then.

Richard Lee: I’d love to think about the other.

Payman Langroudi: Ones when [01:30:20] we talk about your biggest clinical error. What? What comes [01:30:25] to mind?

Richard Lee: Um. Again. Fortunately, [01:30:30] there’s been many years, I think, since I’ve had a big clinical error. I don’t, you know, um, [01:30:35] everything was probably in the first couple of years of qualification. It’s the things you only do once, you [01:30:40] know. So it’s. I’ve anaesthetised [01:30:45] the wrong side.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve done.

Richard Lee: That. Yeah. I mean, everyone does that, don’t they. Don’t they. [01:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: There’s a dyslexia in it.

Richard Lee: Well it’s you know again a busy [01:30:55] NHS list. You’re seeing 30, 35 patients and you think you’re perhaps treating the lower right seven year, you [01:31:00] know, and, and and there’s a moment you realise, you know and it’s it’s [01:31:05] embarrassing. You know, you’ve numbed the patient up.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve drilled the wrong side.

Richard Lee: Okay. I haven’t [01:31:10] drilled the wrong side, but it’s, it’s you numb them up and I’ve realised because you’re looking at the [01:31:15] wrong thing and you and I find with any of these things, the best thing [01:31:20] you can be is just really honest and really apologetic and, you know, [01:31:25] sit them up and I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t there a bigger mistake than that?

Richard Lee: We’re [01:31:30] taking the wrong tooth out, you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I don’t know.

Richard Lee: Oh, for me? Me? I’ve [01:31:35] managed to put the apices of roots into an antrum.

Payman Langroudi: That was nothing [01:31:40] you can do about that, right? I mean, there’s no learning point there.

Richard Lee: No, I don’t do surgical [01:31:45] extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, but still, you know, I feel like that’s a random event. [01:31:50]

Richard Lee: Okay. I mean, it’s. Yeah, I certainly don’t like doing big surgical extractions. Um, [01:31:55] a big clinical error. I [01:32:00] mean, honestly, I’m not. But but there’s [01:32:05] there’s been an unfortunate I think that there’s not been anything. I [01:32:10] don’t think huge and awful and terrible and involve letters backwards and forwards [01:32:15] and and that sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, look, you’re Richard Lee, right? One of the most experienced dentists in the country. [01:32:20] What does experience mean? Errors.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s talk about some of those errors [01:32:25] that gave you the experience to be one of the most experienced dentists in the country? [01:32:30]

Richard Lee: I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think.

Richard Lee: It depends how we define an error, though, doesn’t it? Because if you.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have to be a it doesn’t [01:32:35] have to be a juicy one. It just, you know.

Richard Lee: I’ve, you know, I’ve, I’ve placed stuff [01:32:40] that you on, you know, on review of an ear or a composite that you, [01:32:45] you know, don’t like the colour or you don’t like the, you know, you’ve got to go in and do sort of remedial [01:32:50] work and go in and adjust it. But I think that’s within the because of the [01:32:55] patients told that’s probably going to happen anyway. You know when you come, if it’s composite you’re going to come back. For me, [01:33:00] I have to say it’s it’s not uncommon that I will adjust things when they [01:33:05] come back. I’ll always see them for review and just and they’re told that’s going to happen, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, see [01:33:10] that’s interesting. I was talking to, you know, Sandra Garcia. Yes. And [01:33:15] she was saying the from the under-promise and overdeliver perspective, [01:33:20] she’ll tell most patients that there’ll be several adjustments [01:33:25] and probably a remake at the very beginning.

Richard Lee: I certainly will for a single central. [01:33:30] That, that that’s my.

Payman Langroudi: Her big tip was to say that to everyone, so that everyone feels lucky [01:33:35] when it doesn’t happen, whatever that sort of thing. But then Sam Jethwa, who does [01:33:40] similar treatment modalities. Yeah, quite the opposite. The way he [01:33:45] thinks of it. Yeah. He wants to like, get it absolutely right in the temporaries [01:33:50] he sells that as his value add.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and so [01:33:55] the same procedure. Two totally different ways of talking to patients about it.

Richard Lee: I [01:34:00] think I’m more Sam than than Sandra for that. In terms of indirect, I don’t want to stick anything in [01:34:05] until someone’s given me the big fat thumbs up on those on those provisionals, because how [01:34:10] do you how do.

Payman Langroudi: You had a patient go home after they’ve said it’s all amazing? And then family members [01:34:15] said something in their back?

Richard Lee: I have in composite. So we had a [01:34:20] patient who, She wanted, I [01:34:25] think, in her words, bigger, squarer, more Hollywood teeth. And, um, and she did have relatively, [01:34:30] I think, almost reversed smile line on those anterior four. So we did it with injection [01:34:35] moulding and we, we made them longer and squarer. And she loved it. You know, [01:34:40] she said that’s exactly what I wanted. That’s great. Next day, phone call. Um, [01:34:45] they’re too big. They’re too. They’re two square. They’re two. Okay. You know. [01:34:50] Great. It’s composite. We can adjust this. Not a problem. Just it away. That was. And that happened. [01:34:55] And then. Yep. Fine. Happy. Great. Off again. Back.

Payman Langroudi: How many times? [01:35:00] Many times.

Richard Lee: About four.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Richard Lee: But by the end of it, they were the same length than when we started. [01:35:05] You know, and and I said that, you know, it’s like we’re pretty much down to tooth now, you know, you are pretty much back [01:35:10] to where you started. So, you know, we I read back the notes from my first appointment said, you know, [01:35:15] you wanted this to be like this. This is what we’ve, we’ve done, um, Um, [01:35:20] and we’re adjusting it. Adjusting, which I don’t mind. I’m happy to adjust it, but but now we’re kind of back [01:35:25] to where you want. So what do you want? You know, I’m happy to. And again, it’s I’m not criticising the patient. It’s [01:35:30] just. What do you want?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re at that impasse.

Richard Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Where do you want to go with this? Um, [01:35:35] and then that was the last adjustment, and then we didn’t we didn’t see her again. So, um, but in [01:35:40] terms of porcelain, uh, okay. So this is an interesting one. So lovely. Lovely patient. [01:35:45] And she had, um. Oh, she’s missing a couple of [01:35:50] teeth, but things have moved around a bit. And gaps, young girl, and [01:35:55] wanted to have things closed up and made it look nicer and better. So it’s going to be porcelain restorations, uh, [01:36:00] veneers. So we did our usual [01:36:05] diagnostic procedures, and she had, you know, wax up and we had temporaries on. Really [01:36:10] happy with the temporaries. And she had an extended period in the temporaries. It was probably a few months, actually, which is much longer than [01:36:15] I normally spend. Was this Covid? I’m not sure. I think it was, but there was some reason I can’t remember why. Why she was in temporary [01:36:20] for so long, and we did adjust them a few times. Um, she gave us a big thumbs up. [01:36:25] All good. Happy? Yes. Everything back. Try it all in. Happy? Yes. Bonded. [01:36:30] All in. Um. But she then came back and said [01:36:35] I. They just. I don’t like this tooth like this. And it was a combination [01:36:40] of things. I think she felt one of the teeth was too wide or too. I can’t remember what it was now, but she was [01:36:45] lovely about it. She could not have been nicer. She said, I’m so sorry. She said, I know, you know. I [01:36:50] said the other one was fine, I agree, and this is on me. She said, I know, um, and [01:36:55] we’ve been tweaking these teeth for a few years now. We just, [01:37:00] we just she comes in and like, she’ll go.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just part of the part of the week.

Richard Lee: It’s [01:37:05] just, you know, I just think. And I go, look, you know, it’s porcelain. We can’t really be adjusting it. [01:37:10] It’s, you know, it’s likely to potentially crack and fracture and break. And she’s so apologetic and lovely. [01:37:15] But also, I know that we went through the steps that, you know, but [01:37:20] I am very aware. So I will sit the patient up in the chair. You know, we’ll do the dry try [01:37:25] and we’ll do, we’ll put, try and paste in. We’ll sit them up. I’ll get a 5500 [01:37:30] Kelvin light on there so they can, you know, proper light spin as long as you want with the [01:37:35] mirror. And I will say to them that because when, when they’re bonded in, um, they’re [01:37:40] not coming off with this, that, that that’s it. Because I have, I have bonded them in before. [01:37:45] Um, it’s actually so all these things are coming back to me now.

Payman Langroudi: These are these are good [01:37:50] stories.

Richard Lee: So, um, again, another lovely, lovely, patient, long standing patient. And we’ve done composite [01:37:55] veneers on her. About ten years ago, we were swapping them out for porcelain. And again, temporaries. [01:38:00] All fine. All good. Um, put porcelain ones in. Approved. All good. [01:38:05] Came back and there was just a little bit too much [01:38:10] realism in them for her. So there was just I mean, they looked exactly like hollow as they were so [01:38:15] beautiful. But she wanted a slightly more uniform look [01:38:20] and, um, and she felt that the sort of the texture [01:38:25] was a bit over texturised compared to the temporaries, which I, I can get on board with that because [01:38:30] they were slightly, slightly more textured. Um, and I cut them off and redid them. [01:38:35] That was not that long ago. Um, just the front for, um, because [01:38:40] she was genuine. I could see it. You talked about before, [01:38:45] you know, I said, yeah, you know, I, I agree. There there. Um, I can see what you’re saying. [01:38:50] Obviously we’ve tried them, but yeah, the realism that’s in them obviously isn’t [01:38:55] in the temporary ones. And it is difficult at trying for patients to you know. [01:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting point here that if there was a failure there, it was a communication failure [01:39:05] when the temporaries went on.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Richard Lee: It’s it’s that extra bit of attention [01:39:10] and I that’s why with the Temporaries, I want the architecture to be spot on [01:39:15] like so. They shouldn’t be really looking at the shape when I try, when I when I try the porcelain, the final ones in [01:39:20] because the shape should just be a copy. Yeah, I don’t want the brain to go to the shape because that’s using up [01:39:25] too much. I want them to be looking at other stuff. Um, so that’s why I want to dial in that [01:39:30] architecture and the length and the, you know, everything. So there shouldn’t be any question about that. It’s just [01:39:35] then the other stuff that they should be checking, you know, so [01:39:40] it is just, you know, it’s one of those things just happens every so often. And she’s lovely and she’s such a nice patient. And [01:39:45] I’m like, yeah, I’ll redo those. That’s, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: That’s part of the process. Right? That’s part of the process. [01:39:50]

Richard Lee: And she’s super happy and she’s so happy now she tells me how much she loves them and you know, and [01:39:55] I was like, yeah, cool. That’s you know, done that. That’s fine. So it’s funny isn’t it. Because [01:40:00] failure you, you kind of think of as generally having [01:40:05] a bad outcome, you know. And I think it’s often like all these things, it depends [01:40:10] on how it’s managed and how it’s handled and the communication. Because if you get defensive, [01:40:15] I think if you get well, you you approve them, you know, and you get really sort of well, [01:40:20] they’ve paid a lot of money and they want to look how they look. And it’s not being unreasonable. You know, it’s just [01:40:25] um, and I want, I want genuinely want the patient to be happy. And I expect them to be happy. So if they’re not [01:40:30] happy, I find that more upsetting that they’re not that they’re not happy than me having [01:40:35] to do a bit of work to to sort it out.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, you know, the reason why I [01:40:40] in, in this pod tend to probe on dark days mistakes is because often [01:40:45] some of the best stuff comes out of those, you know, one of those things you look back on your [01:40:50] life.

Richard Lee: It’s it’s and I think they I think perhaps the, the reason I hadn’t [01:40:55] remembered a couple of those is because they didn’t have particularly bad outcomes. And I think because patients happy still [01:41:00] my patients I’m happy. So it’s a bit of extra work, but it’s I think the ones that you [01:41:05] think, you think that you remember are the stuff that you know, is the stuff that that haunts you slightly.

Payman Langroudi: Because how much do [01:41:10] you love it now, I’m sure. I’m sure you loved it a lot.

Richard Lee: I do. I still.

Payman Langroudi: Love it. You still [01:41:15] love.

Richard Lee: It. I still love it. There’s days when you don’t love it so much. You know? But that’s. That’s life, isn’t it? Um, I [01:41:20] do. It is a bit of a hobby. Um, I do enjoy it.

Payman Langroudi: What would you do if you weren’t [01:41:25] a dentist? Like something artistic?

Richard Lee: Yeah, I don’t I genuinely don’t know. Um, [01:41:30] because I fell into this and I didn’t really have a clear idea, um, what it would have been before that, but. [01:41:35] Yeah, maybe. Um, I remember doing work experience as a graphic designer as well at school. [01:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: So it’s the funny thing is that you could say, hey, I’d be an architect, but neither of us know what it’s like to be an [01:41:45] architect. Yeah, absolutely. The realities of it. I mean, I don’t know, it’s like.

Richard Lee: It’s like school [01:41:50] kid stuff, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Want to be a footballer or an astronaut? I don’t, I don’t know. Um. Genuinely. [01:41:55] Genuinely not. I feel really fortunate and privileged to have had this career. Um, and that’s [01:42:00] what going right back to the beginning of Dave Thomas, the guy that I did the work experience with. He [01:42:05] said to me, I remember clearly, he said dentistry. And he’s like, it was nearly retiring, he said. It’s been [01:42:10] really good to me. He said. It’s just been a really good profession. I’ve enjoyed it. It’s given me standing [01:42:15] in my community and I’ve just really. It’s been good to me and I feel I [01:42:20] feel really privileged to. To have done it. I don’t know, I’m not I’m not retiring [01:42:25] yet. I’ve got ages. Um, but I do feel very privileged that people come and see me and [01:42:30] that I enjoy what I feel very fortunate. I enjoy what I do, um, and [01:42:35] that I can do it to a level that I think, you know, makes people happy. So, yeah, [01:42:40] it’s it’s a good thing to do.

Payman Langroudi: But if I dropped $1 billion in your lap, what [01:42:45] would you do with your life? Obviously, a lot of diving, a lot of diving.

Richard Lee: I’ve taught here. [01:42:50] I was talking to someone about this the other day, I think because if [01:42:55] you just stop that way, madness lies. I think initially. So I think I [01:43:00] enjoy it. But what I do for the first year is I probably go on [01:43:05] loads of courses. There’s loads of courses. Um, all the courses. I [01:43:10] think I’d quite like to, because I love courses and that. And that really gets you excited and fired up. Um, [01:43:15] and then just see. But I mean, a billion, a billion is a lot. But, but but I think, [01:43:20] you know, you need.

Payman Langroudi: To say, look, if you had a week, a weekend day to yourself, family [01:43:25] were away or something, what would you do?

Richard Lee: Uh, [01:43:30] that’s a that’s an even harder one, isn’t it? Because, uh, I remember when.

Payman Langroudi: I have the billion. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Well, [01:43:35] when, when, uh, when, uh, our eldest was about 18 [01:43:40] months. Um, Sherry took him back to New Zealand just for a couple of weeks just to see the family. And [01:43:45] that’s the first time for ages I’d been on my own in the house, and I didn’t know what to do. For the first hour, I was standing up. [01:43:50] I was sitting down, I put the kettle on. I didn’t make the tea. I was just because you just you’re so used to sort of just doing all [01:43:55] the things that you that you do. Um, I don’t know, I am if I get a chance [01:44:00] to sort of get. So I’ll go with a one of my really good mates who lives in London, a [01:44:05] school Schoolfriend, and we’ll often go for a walking weekend. We’ll go down to the south coast, walk, [01:44:10] and then find a pub and sit in there for several hours and maybe watch some football. And [01:44:15] that’s really nice. It’s funny because people ask about New Zealand and about because New Zealand [01:44:20] is very outdoorsy. Yeah, and I thought I was outdoorsy, but I’m not New [01:44:25] Zealand outdoorsy. So like I like a nice walk with a pub. They like to more like kill like hunt [01:44:30] and fish and.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Richard Lee: Know, kind of do that, that sort of.

Payman Langroudi: Thing with skiing. Yeah.

Richard Lee: Yeah. Okay. [01:44:35]

Payman Langroudi: I like skiing, but yeah, I want cappuccinos in the middle [01:44:40] of it. I want good lunch.

Richard Lee: It’s the stuff around it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I definitely don’t want to wake up 6 [01:44:45] a.m. and ski my ass off and miss lunch and and then go to bed early, which is what a lot [01:44:50] of people do in skiing.

Richard Lee: Some people like the. Yeah, again, the purity of that and others.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Richard Lee: The, the stuff. [01:44:55]

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t feel like a holiday at all to me.

Richard Lee: No, no I don’t, I don’t ski, but [01:45:00] um, I, yeah I imagine I yeah, I like the stuff I haven’t dived again for. I need to go into diving [01:45:05] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you haven’t for a while.

Richard Lee: Not for about ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Richard Lee: I know, so. Other kids are small. It’s always a bit awkward, but [01:45:10] actually we’re off to Egypt next week, so we might. I might actually get wet for the first time in [01:45:15] a while. That would be good.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s end it with our usual questions.

Richard Lee: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party [01:45:20] guests.

Richard Lee: Yeah, really struggle with this one. Um, so [01:45:25] this is what I thought. Um, you want your dinner party to [01:45:30] be fun? You know, it’s going to be out loud because I know some people sort of go for the whole, you know, I don’t know, Barack [01:45:35] Obama. And they want sort of, you know, kind of like to be enlightened and all that sort of stuff. No, [01:45:40] I just want a bit of a laugh. So I’m going with Rik Mayall. Oh, great. Okay. I love, I [01:45:45] love Rik Mayall Rik genuinely heartbroken the day that he, that he died. Um, [01:45:50] so he was a massive part of, um, us.

Payman Langroudi: Our generation.

Richard Lee: Growing up. Yeah. You know, [01:45:55] all, all the programmes. So, um, so I love him. He’d just be hilarious. Um, and [01:46:00] then I need a bit of music as well. So I’m going to go with [01:46:05] Paul McCartney, who I just think is I mean, I know this one goes a bit tragic now, [01:46:10] but what a legend. So he was all done with the Beatles by the time he was 27. [01:46:15] That was done. That was finished, he wrote yesterday when he was 22.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Richard Lee: Right? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: 27. [01:46:20] The Beatles were over. I didn’t know that. Done.

Richard Lee: How interesting that [01:46:25] to be the biggest band in the world. One of the most influential bands, pop bands of all time. And you’re [01:46:30] 27 and that’s behind you. How interesting. And then you still carry on. But yeah. And I think [01:46:35] he’s got so many great stories, you know. So I think I think yeah. So [01:46:40] who’ve we got. We’ve got um, Rik Mayall um, Paul McCartney [01:46:45] and I think I’m going to go for, um, Bob Mortimer is the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Bob [01:46:50] Mortimer, the comedian. Yeah. Oh yeah. He’s cool.

Richard Lee: So he does. They’ve gone fishing with Paul Weiss. But for years [01:46:55] I loved again, it’s a generational thing. Uh, Vic Reeves big night out. Yeah, you see it [01:47:00] live and stuff. And I always love Bob Mortimer and I just think he’s a he’s [01:47:05] just a really funny, nice guy. And I think he sort of ground everybody else. So, um, [01:47:10] those are my those are my three. I think they gel quite well as well.

Payman Langroudi: Never had any of those [01:47:15] three, which is good.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Which is good. Not, not not the cliche choices.

Richard Lee: It’s not enlightened. Haven’t got [01:47:20] Einstein and I haven’t got, you know, Mandela and I haven’t got any of that. We’ve just we’ve just.

Payman Langroudi: Gone for the Queen.

Richard Lee: We’ve [01:47:25] just gone for giggles and music. It’s basically what what we’re going for.

Payman Langroudi: Final question [01:47:30] is a deathbed question. Oh, yes. Three pieces of advice for your loved ones, for [01:47:35] the world.

Richard Lee: For the world.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, what would they be?

Richard Lee: Um, I found this quite hard as well, because I don’t [01:47:40] I don’t give much advice, I don’t think, but, um, I do [01:47:45] like the the Theodore Roosevelt quote of, um, comparison [01:47:50] is the thief of joy.

Payman Langroudi: Is that Theodore Roosevelt? I didn’t know that. Yeah, so I think [01:47:55] so true.

Richard Lee: I think that’s, um, a really big one. And I think particularly in the age [01:48:00] that we live in with social media and everybody showing their highlights reel of their life, um, [01:48:05] with dentistry as well, you know, we we’re all guilty. [01:48:10] Guilty of it. But you don’t put your, your bad stuff out there, you know. And I think [01:48:15] I get it as you look at people’s work and you feel a [01:48:20] bit rubbish about yourself, you know, and and it might not just be work, [01:48:25] it might be their lifestyle or it might be their house or their car or their [01:48:30] whatever it is, they’re, you know, but the race is [01:48:35] is life is is long. Um, and that race really is only with your [01:48:40] self, you know, it’s not with other people because sometimes you’re doing really well and sometimes [01:48:45] you’re not doing really well. But trying to compare yourself to other people is just, is just pointless. [01:48:50] And I think it’s just the route to unhappiness. So I think just yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I fully [01:48:55] agree.

Richard Lee: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Number two.

Richard Lee: Number two. Number [01:49:00] two is. Find something that you just really enjoy [01:49:05] doing. It’s a bit of a vague one, but just a passion. Do something that you, [01:49:10] that you, that you love.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think they’ll do to you that if you had gone down another [01:49:15] route, similarly, you’d end up loving that too?

Richard Lee: Maybe. I don’t know. [01:49:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s similar. I mean, I do accept that you may not have been the right guy to sit in a be [01:49:25] a lawyer or something. Reading, reading law maybe.

Richard Lee: But but that but that might be. I’m not saying there’s one [01:49:30] thing for one for every person.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re just saying enjoy your enjoy your work.

Richard Lee: But get, get, get, get passionate about it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:49:35]

Richard Lee: You know, because if you’re not passionate about it, then what are you doing? You know, you’re just you’re just you’re just treading water and [01:49:40] it’s it’s it’s life.

Payman Langroudi: Most of your awake hours.

Richard Lee: Yeah. And life is life. [01:49:45] So that leads me on to the third one. You know that life is, as I say, it’s long in some ways, but [01:49:50] it goes quickly. You know, be be present. Be where you are right now [01:49:55] with, you know, your friends, people aren’t always there. So just I [01:50:00] think, be be thankful for what you have. You know, a lot of what you have [01:50:05] for most people is luck. We as a people, you know, we are amongst the world’s people, the most privileged. [01:50:10] Yeah, just just try and find gratitude and and and be [01:50:15] thankful and, you know, be nice to each other. Kids.

Payman Langroudi: Was that number three.

Richard Lee: You had [01:50:20] to know. I remember the first one. There was another one that I.

Payman Langroudi: Started insisting on a new one. I started [01:50:25] insisting on a new one because that question you can answer, you can say, I did this, so you should too. [01:50:30] Yeah, but I quite like the opposite side of it of I didn’t do this, [01:50:35] but you should like what a piece of advice like that. Like classically go [01:50:40] to the gym more. Yeah.

Richard Lee: For me, I’d say I’d probably, if it was. What I didn’t do [01:50:45] was, um. I don’t take every [01:50:50] opportunity. I’m quite safe.

Payman Langroudi: It’s that scared of change Thing?

Richard Lee: I think [01:50:55] so. I think it’s kind of inherent within me that I tend to not I [01:51:00] worry or. Yeah. So I think risk averse. Yeah. I am quite risk averse.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think. Do you know, do you [01:51:05] know why.

Richard Lee: Don’t know why. That’s probably a long conversation with a therapist I don’t know. Um, [01:51:10] no, I don’t know. But I am quite risk averse, and I tend [01:51:15] to, um, not want huge amounts of change. So. And I think and [01:51:20] that’s got probably more so as I’ve gotten older and I think, you know, if you say [01:51:25] yes to stuff, you don’t even know what’s going to happen. You know, it’s exciting stuff happens. I think I did that more that when I, when I was younger. But I think, yeah, just [01:51:30] stay. Oh my third one I’ve got it now I remember now. Be curious.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Richard Lee: Be curious. [01:51:35] Be curious about people, about things, about life. Most of the things that seem to go on these [01:51:40] days that are not good, are people who have set mindsets about other peoples [01:51:45] or other countries or other philosophies, and because they never [01:51:50] really were curious about why something is the way that it is. So just open minded. [01:51:55] Curiousness I think is a is a good cure to lots of the world.

Payman Langroudi: 100%. Um, it’s been a massive [01:52:00] pleasure, man.

Richard Lee: Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: Much. I knew it would be. It’s been a pleasure having you. Thanks, man. Always learn from [01:52:05] you, man. Thank you very much.

Richard Lee: That’s very kind of you.

[VOICE]: This is [01:52:10] Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with [01:52:15] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:52:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:52:25] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a [01:52:30] huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and [01:52:35] what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get [01:52:40] some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with [01:52:45] a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:52:50]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. [00:00:05] We try really hard. We’ve treated half a million patients in 11 countries. Now, if you want [00:00:10] to know what all the fuss is about, get yourself onto Enlighten online training. Enlighten online [00:00:15] training.com. Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:20] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:30] Your hosts Payman [00:00:35] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:00:40] Annie Seaborn onto the pod. Annie is a dentist who’s gone right [00:00:45] into the sports dentistry field, um, a lacrosse player [00:00:50] at national level and recently working in Bupa [00:00:55] as. What’s the official title?

Anni Seaborne: Head of general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Head of general [00:01:00] dentistry. It’s a big title.

Anni Seaborne: It’s a big title.

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel good about getting that title? [00:01:05] It’s a big.

Anni Seaborne: Title. I definitely had imposter syndrome. It was even [00:01:10] applying for it at the beginning was a bit like, what am I doing? But then I was like, [00:01:15] you, you miss all the shots you don’t take. So I was like, well, go for it. Um. Why not? On [00:01:20] paper I was not qualified, but equally, I don’t think anyone who applied for it really was [00:01:25] that qualified for it because it was a business role.

Payman Langroudi: The training for that job was weird.

Anni Seaborne: So it’s definitely [00:01:30] a more business role rather than a clinical role. So even though it’s part of a wider group for [00:01:35] the clinical, um, what we call clinical clinical [00:01:40] advisory team advisory team is the word I’m looking for. Um, but we’re not [00:01:45] actually advising clinicians. We’re advising the kind of the corporate structure, the business people.

Payman Langroudi: About [00:01:50] the clinicians.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. Being a voice for the clinicians.

Payman Langroudi: The link between the corporate structure and the clinicians. [00:01:55] Right, right. Right. Right, right. Um also graduated from the [00:02:00] best dental school in the country. Yes. Cardiff, which which we both [00:02:05] graduated from. Um, tell me about how you got into dentistry in the first place.

Anni Seaborne: How I got into dentistry. [00:02:10] Well, the reality was I didn’t want to be a dentist. Um, if I [00:02:15] had it my way, I would have done something to do with sports from the off. But, [00:02:20] um, I was quite good at sciences. My parents pushed me down that route. [00:02:25] Um, and then I looked at medicine, um, and [00:02:30] something that really captivated me was actually Max facts. So I did some work experience at down at [00:02:35] the Royal Surrey with the Max facts team, and they all said, if you’re going to do max facts, you [00:02:40] have to do the best way around would be dentistry first, then medicine. And that’s kind of what [00:02:45] got me into dentistry and looking at that. Okay. Um, so then I applied for dental school, [00:02:50] my fifth choice. Um, because, you know, you can only apply for four dental options, then one has to [00:02:55] be either was sports science, and I was a little bit disappointed when I got my results and found out I had been accepted [00:03:00] because I had to say no to going to bath to do sports science. Um, but [00:03:05] yeah, that’s how I basically got into dentistry was kind of a little bit of an accident, but also the Max Factor Consultants, [00:03:10] um, at Royal Surrey, basically telling me that was the easiest way around to get to Max [00:03:15] FACs.

Payman Langroudi: Did you grow up in Surrey?

Anni Seaborne: Yes. Uh, well, that was our base. Um, I actually grew up around the world. [00:03:20] So, yeah, my dad was an expat, um, worked in oil, so I kind [00:03:25] of grew up going to various countries and then ended up boarding school for secondary school. In [00:03:30] which.

Payman Langroudi: Countries did you live.

Anni Seaborne: In? Where did I live? In all sorts. Uh, Yemen. Nigeria. [00:03:35] Um, Azerbaijan. Mozambique. Those were the ones that I was [00:03:40] probably in. And then also my dad was also in Brazil, Trinidad. But most of that time I was at boarding.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa. [00:03:45] So boarding here.

Anni Seaborne: Boarding here? Yep. Boarding in Surrey.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [00:03:50] such an interesting way of growing up. Right?

Anni Seaborne: It was the best at the at the time. [00:03:55] I wanted to fit in. At the time, I wanted to stick in a school for more than two years. [00:04:00] Looking back on, it was the most privileged, amazing upbringing because.

Payman Langroudi: People [00:04:05] say changing schools as well as being super disruptive, makes you into the kind of person who can [00:04:10] talk to anyone, get on with anyone, because you’re kind of forced to do that again and again. [00:04:15] But then changing schools in lots of countries that must be like that must give [00:04:20] you superpowers.

Anni Seaborne: So I think the hardest bit was languages [00:04:25] because I was in like for example, Mozambique. I was English speaking [00:04:30] in a French speaking school in a Portuguese speaking country. Wow. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:35] I’m only there for a couple of years.

Anni Seaborne: I was only there for two years, 18 months, two years. So you just [00:04:40] have to adapt and just try your best. Um, and [00:04:45] yeah, you don’t realise I said at the at the time when you’re young. Also, I think you learn languages [00:04:50] quicker and you kind of are a little bit more you. You’re not worried [00:04:55] about what people think of you. So you’re happy to make mistakes and just fumble along with it. Um, [00:05:00] but yeah, I don’t think I quite realised how flexible I [00:05:05] had to be growing up, and actually how that probably has meant that I kind of am quite good at just fitting in in [00:05:10] different scenarios.

Payman Langroudi: And boarding school kind of gives you this sort of self-reliance muscle, [00:05:15] doesn’t it? I mean, the people I know who’ve been to boarding school, we had boarders in our school, but I [00:05:20] was a day to day kid. But people I know who’ve been to boarding school have this sort of almost [00:05:25] a very strong on the whole organisation and, and just being good at the [00:05:30] basics of life, you know. Is that correct?

Anni Seaborne: I would say so. You just have to get things done. You [00:05:35] have to find a way. And especially because my parents weren’t actually in the country for a lot of it, if you wanted [00:05:40] to do something, you just had to find a way to do it.

Payman Langroudi: You send your kid to boarding school.

Anni Seaborne: If I could afford [00:05:45] to. And they wanted to. Absolutely. Um, I wouldn’t force it upon. [00:05:50] And I know it’s not for everyone, but I had the best time of my life. Um, my partner also.

Payman Langroudi: Was. [00:05:55]

Anni Seaborne: A. He was at boarding school from age eight. Um, I’m not sure I’d do that. But equally, [00:06:00] as I said, if my child wanted to, and I was financially able [00:06:05] to, of course. Yeah, I thought it was honestly amazing. Also because I was I say this [00:06:10] I was an only child to my parents. My dad did have I have half siblings, but they were significantly [00:06:15] older than me. So growing up I was on my own. And I think when you are jumping around, it was nice to [00:06:20] have stability and nice to have friends and people around you. Um, so I think that [00:06:25] was a big part of why I really enjoyed it, but it did make me very independent. Um, [00:06:30] and growing up, like at university, I moved to university on my own. My parents didn’t come with me, um, [00:06:35] even though they were actually in the country. I think they just had other plans. But [00:06:40] I just got on the train to Cardiff with all my bags and then fumbled around, found my key to the [00:06:45] halls, and then, um, Amazing. And then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Did the sports kick in? In [00:06:50] school?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Sports from a young age.

Payman Langroudi: And was it only lacrosse or [00:06:55] was it lacrosse?

Anni Seaborne: My original sport was swimming. That’s what my parents invested a lot [00:07:00] in. Lots of hours. Um, I then developed a chlorine allergy. Oh, wow. So [00:07:05] I was quite, um, went to quite a high level county nationals. [00:07:10] Um, but at a young age. So I say, like, it seems good, but really, [00:07:15] it was under 12. Under 13? Um, developed a chlorine allergy, so I had to step [00:07:20] away from that. We tried to do it on steroids and all of that, but my parents were like, this is just not [00:07:25] not worth it. Yeah. Um, and then just threw myself into any [00:07:30] and every sport, and lacrosse was the one that kind of stuck as such. And also my [00:07:35] school played it. They were very good. We were would go to nationals regularly, come like national finals [00:07:40] if not win as well. So um, I was in in a high performance environment from school [00:07:45] as well. But honestly, any sport, I would give it a go.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:07:50] So sports dentistry is a kind of thing that most people haven’t heard of. [00:07:55] When was the first time you heard of it properly? [00:08:00]

Anni Seaborne: As like an actual discipline? Not until I did my master’s, until I looked it up, but I did. Um, [00:08:05] I don’t know if you had this, but we didn’t get to go on elective at Cardiff. We had to do our final year project [00:08:10] like a dissertation.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I won’t.

Anni Seaborne: Elective elective. Well, they must [00:08:15] have got rid of it.

Payman Langroudi: I was in San Francisco for four months.

Anni Seaborne: I was in the library typing [00:08:20] out. Um, yeah. So we don’t get to go on elective. I don’t know if they’ve changed it again. Um, [00:08:25] but we had to do a final year project. We had to do a dissertation, and I actually did my dissertation [00:08:30] on head and neck trauma of lacrosse. And whether goggles like protective goggles, I [00:08:35] don’t know if you’ve seen them, um, should be mandated in the UK because they’re mandated in the US. Um, [00:08:40] so that was my kind of first thing accidentally, just because that’s what interested me, [00:08:45] and trying to find a supervisor was really hard. I kind of had a joint supervisor between Max [00:08:50] and PEDs, but even that, they were like, we’re not really sure what what you’re doing. Um, [00:08:55] I remember in my feedback that I got someone even wrote hockey like, and I was like, my whole dissertation [00:09:00] was on the cross, but okay. That’s funny. Um, but. So, yeah, [00:09:05] that was that was the first time I kind of looked into it. But as I said, I didn’t really know that it [00:09:10] existed. Um, and then and then I just saw on the Eastman website I was looking, I [00:09:15] think I was looking at composite courses or something like, um, restorative courses.

Anni Seaborne: And then I saw that [00:09:20] there was actually a sports dentistry, and initially it was a CPD certificate. And [00:09:25] then when I went back to check, um, they’d launched a master’s program. And [00:09:30] so I was like, this is perfect. This is everything that I want to do. Um, admittedly, [00:09:35] looking back on it, I probably went in a year too early because I was only, I think, two years out of uni at [00:09:40] this point. Um, so going on the course, it was a three years course and [00:09:45] a lot of it. I knew everything, but I didn’t have much experience in everything. And the other people on the course [00:09:50] were quite a lot older and more experienced in general clinical dentistry. So [00:09:55] there was a lot of things that I was kind of learning and being like, oh gosh, I’m not super comfortable [00:10:00] with this. It’s not part of my day to day practice. Yeah. Um, so [00:10:05] but yeah, that was that was basically the start of my sports dentistry journey. Unfortunately, [00:10:10] though, I think the course lost its funding actually. So it only managed three year cycles. So [00:10:15] the final cycle, um, I think imogen’s the final in the final [00:10:20] year group. And she’ll be graduating this year next year.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, who’s the Pascal [00:10:25] manager of sports dentistry? Is there someone like is it is it is there a department somewhere [00:10:30] that’s really good at it?

Anni Seaborne: Um, do you know it’s huge in Brazil?

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anni Seaborne: Is it? And huge in Germany.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:10:35] Really.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Big funding treatment. Lots of them that are doing it. America. [00:10:40] There’s quite a few people, but.

Payman Langroudi: So it exists outside of the UK.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:45] There’s like an international WhatsApp group and there’s always buzz going on there.

Payman Langroudi: And so is [00:10:50] the goal of a sports dentist to be the dentist for a sports team or a sports player? Is that was that what that is [00:10:55] generally. Is that what people are after?

Anni Seaborne: Yes and no. Um, I’m [00:11:00] kind of looking at the bigger picture. Like I kind of want to make more of a difference and just. I’ll be honest, [00:11:05] I’ve ticked the boxes that I wanted to tick. My goal when I went on the course, I was like, oh, do you know what would be great? Would be great to be [00:11:10] the England rugby dentist. And I got there quite quickly, which was not my [00:11:15] plan. My plan that was like a 510 year work my way up. That’s how I that’s where I want to be. And [00:11:20] within a year, I think within two years of finishing my master’s, a year or [00:11:25] two. Yeah, I ended up getting that job and kind of running with it. I’m looking at the bigger picture, bigger [00:11:30] treating of athletes and actually taking it seriously, because I think a lot of people do think exactly that. It’s just like, oh, you work for a [00:11:35] sports team. And actually it’s a whole process as a whole, almost patient demographic. So [00:11:40] it’s the whole cycle. Seasonal cycle. So from pre-season to it.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:11:45] let’s.

Anni Seaborne: Start.

Payman Langroudi: With let’s start with that ambition of becoming the. So it tends to in my experience [00:11:50] it tends to be people dentists who love a sport. Yeah. Want to hang with.

Anni Seaborne: They want [00:11:55] to hang. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and so but day to day what does it entail? Because one [00:12:00] of my best friends, he. He was the dentist for Chelsea. And I was sort of saying [00:12:05] the same thing to him. I was saying, you just want to hang with these players, right? That’s what it is. And then he said something about, [00:12:10] look, that player is being paid £200,000 a week to play football. If [00:12:15] he’s got toothache, the club needs to to pin that on someone. These [00:12:20] are large amounts of money. So if the club provides a dentist for that guy, he’s got no excuse [00:12:25] to have toothache. And I thought, oh, God, it’s like a whole more serious, like, business case for it in [00:12:30] football, I guess.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what does it entail being the [00:12:35] rugby team’s dentist. Do you go to every game? Is that what happens?

Anni Seaborne: No, I mean story. [00:12:40] Yeah. Lots of traumas that you see, especially with rugby. Um, I’ve done a [00:12:45] couple of pitchside. I’ll be honest. I just sit there in the cold and as glamorous [00:12:50] as you think it’s going to be, um, when you’re properly pitchside, you’re on a plastic chair or maybe in [00:12:55] the dugout. Um, you’re at ground level, so you don’t even get [00:13:00] a good view of the match. So it’s not like you get to watch the match and enjoy it. Um, if [00:13:05] I’m completely honest, it’s a little bit awkward for me in the changing rooms being female, and I work mostly with [00:13:10] male teams. Um, the other females are like physios. They’re strapping. I’m just stood [00:13:15] there in the changing room, so I’m not doing as much pitchside [00:13:20] stuff, at least with the clubs.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. So then you’re the dentist that they advised [00:13:25] the team to go to?

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. But I’m also there at pre-season, so I go in. I [00:13:30] do not exams but screenings. So kind of just point them in the right direction. [00:13:35] Take scans, do their mouth guards education pieces, create a rapport with them [00:13:40] so that they actually come to the dentist? Because we we don’t want it to be reactive. We want to be proactive. And [00:13:45] then when we’ve got that baseline, we can then move to a more performance led kind of strategy [00:13:50] where you’re actually looking at enhancing performance, getting rid of inflammation, getting just [00:13:55] giving them kind of the best dentition. Because it’s crazy that you have these athletes [00:14:00] who like, look after everything and do ice baths and do all of that, [00:14:05] and yet their teeth have got rampant caries or gingivitis or whatever going on, and that’s all going [00:14:10] to affect their, their health. So that’s kind of the staging of it, is that you’re actually looking from a performance [00:14:15] point of view, but you’ve got to create that rapport and trust with them. And another thing that is when you [00:14:20] create that trust with them, they actually disclose a lot that they might not disclose to other medical [00:14:25] team members because you’re involved enough that they trust you, but not involved so much that you’re going [00:14:30] to affect the coaches decision.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Anni Seaborne: So I hear a lot about niggles or concerns [00:14:35] or there’s a big increase in use of snas and they’ll be [00:14:40] like oh I’m using this actually I’ve got a burn or I’ve had this niggle and I’m taking this [00:14:45] meds for it. Or can I ask an opinion on smoking or something like that. Yeah. Or can you look [00:14:50] at this lesion or do you know, people have asked me to look at kind of things on their bodies as well and be like, okay, I can’t [00:14:55] really give you medical advice here, but I can say whether, okay, you should probably get that checked [00:15:00] out.

Payman Langroudi: What a nuance. Like what a nuance that they can talk to you about something like [00:15:05] that and maybe don’t want to bring it up with the official team doctor or something. [00:15:10] You’d never think of something like that, would you?

Anni Seaborne: No, you don’t, and you’re in a privileged position. But you’ve got you’ve [00:15:15] got to earn it. You’re not. I said you don’t want to be reactive. And that’s really where sports dentistry comes into it, is that you [00:15:20] should be part of the medical team. Yes. You’re not going to have as much say as the physio, but [00:15:25] you you’re working with the team so have really strong relationships with the physiotherapist, with the lead doctors. [00:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um, and is there you’re kind of an elite athlete, right? Is there something [00:15:35] about elite athletes, athletes from the sugar intake perspective [00:15:40] or a huge.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or are they severe because they’re so, like [00:15:45] pushing themselves so hard like perfectionists? What patterns do you see amongst [00:15:50] elite?

Anni Seaborne: Honestly, they are one of the highest risk athletes for pretty much everything. Um, patients [00:15:55] of anything. So if you look at their diet, um, so if you pick [00:16:00] any athlete and you can look at different sports and they’ll have different risk factors. So if you look at a long distance [00:16:05] runner, they are going to be taking glucose gels or glucose drinks all the time. They’re [00:16:10] likely going to be dehydrated um, a lot of the time. So obviously less saliva flow. So they’re [00:16:15] not able to fight those sugars. Um, if it’s a preseason, they’ll be throwing up perhaps [00:16:20] a little bit more. If they’re perhaps in a weight category based, they’re going to be vomiting a lot more. So you’re going to [00:16:25] see erosion, um, if their power sport or certain positions. In rugby, for example, [00:16:30] the kickers. I find the fly halves tend to have to be bruxing, and actually it’s their clenching [00:16:35] as they’re creating the generating the power when they’re kicking, you [00:16:40] see. Yeah, it’s it’s honestly the, the lifestyle, [00:16:45] even though it’s meant to be the most healthy lifestyle is actually awful [00:16:50] for, um, oral health.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s like to be the best [00:16:55] at anything. It takes an unhealthy obsession.

Anni Seaborne: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t it? You [00:17:00] could decide to be the best composite guy in Europe. Yeah. That’s going to affect your [00:17:05] life somehow. Yes. You know what I mean? Like it’s obsession. Obsession [00:17:10] does that. Everything else gets pushed aside for the for the one goal.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And it’s finding [00:17:15] that balance because there are some people that you’re, it’s I’m not going to turn round and tell [00:17:20] an Ironman athlete to stop having glucose gels. Like obviously not. It’s finding a balance [00:17:25] between making sure that they’re getting the right supplements and energy, but also without [00:17:30] damaging their teeth. And it’s working with the sports nutritionists and the medical team to be like, okay, [00:17:35] if they’re doing I don’t know if Iron Man, if they do five K runs, if that’s literally just a warm up, but [00:17:40] if they’re doing A5K run, maybe you don’t need that energy gel. If you’re doing less than an hour [00:17:45] run up and saying like, I know you want to plan for the race, but [00:17:50] for certain, for certain training runs, don’t use those. Or just make sure you’re being [00:17:55] hydrated or perhaps use during that. Just prescribe some fat to help. Um, [00:18:00] and it’s also having that conversation when, um, once again, it comes back to that relationship [00:18:05] is those athletes who are in weight category may have eating disorders and things like that. You might be the [00:18:10] person that they feel comfortable to have a relationship have the conversation with. Because actually, once again, [00:18:15] their doctor is going to be the one that’s going to pull them out or talk to their coach. Whereas you can have a [00:18:20] conversation, you can spot it and say, look, you’re damaging your teeth. I know there’s something bigger going on. Really? [00:18:25] If someone’s got an eating disorder. Teeth are the least of the worries. But you can be [00:18:30] the one to have that conversation. Um, so yeah, honestly, athletes [00:18:35] teeth are shocking.

Payman Langroudi: And to get their trust. Does it. Do you have to be into [00:18:40] the sport?

Anni Seaborne: No, you have to. You have to know enough about the sport to understand. [00:18:45] And I think with any sport like I, um, recently started. Well, I say recently, a couple of years ago, I started [00:18:50] working in Formula One, and really, I knew nothing of it except that cars go round in a circle. Um, [00:18:55] and I knew who Michael Schumacher was and Lewis Hamilton, and that was the extent of it. You [00:19:00] have to know enough about the sport to be able to treat it appropriately and understand [00:19:05] the risk factors of it, but really, you’re part of the medical team. The [00:19:10] athletes don’t want a fan girl treating them. [00:19:15] They don’t want to be having photos. They want to be seeing a dentist. They want their [00:19:20] problem solving.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so that’s a good point.

Anni Seaborne: That’s. I think that’s probably [00:19:25] where I’ve excelled. So you I’ve never had a photo with a single athlete I’ve treated. [00:19:30] And that’s kind of my rule as such. Um, [00:19:35] that being said, I have done a commercial kind of link with one. [00:19:40] Um, but that was separate. And I said it wasn’t a personal photo. Um, and that was organised [00:19:45] separately. But I’m very much their dentist. I’m not going [00:19:50] to fangirl them and they don’t want that. And that’s how you create that rapport. It’s because they trust you. [00:19:55] Um, and they are just people at the end of the day and you realise that very, very quickly that [00:20:00] they just happen to be. Whilst our colleagues may be very good at composites, they happen to be very good at [00:20:05] football or very good at rugby. Um, they are just normal people and they want to be treated [00:20:10] like that. Um, and I think that’s a big thing in creating trust is [00:20:15] just treating them completely normal.

Payman Langroudi: I felt the same thing with celebrities, right?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, [00:20:20] it’s Is exactly that story.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about. You know, I don’t know if you know anything about that. [00:20:25] I’m sure you do. That. Appliances that that enhance your performance. Is [00:20:30] that rubbish? Is that real? What is that?

Anni Seaborne: It’s real. But with limited, [00:20:35] um, research, as in, there needs to be more. There’s not enough research on it.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:40] do you believe there’s an appliance you can put in someone’s mouth and they run faster or whatever it is?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So? So the studies [00:20:45] show increased power, um, increased speed, increased flexibility. It’s all about kind [00:20:50] of aligning your body musculature and all of that. Um, is [00:20:55] it. Well, it’s all about the 1%, but is it enough? And also it needs to be done consistently [00:21:00] with training our athletes, going to where I can barely get an athlete to wear a mouthguard like [00:21:05] a protective mouthguard. Are you going to get them to wear a splint? Um, I’ve had issues with I’ve tried [00:21:10] to approach teams to talk about it. Um, and there’s funding issues, whether they [00:21:15] kind of fully believe it because the research isn’t solid. So yeah, it’s a lot [00:21:20] of small kind of studies saying yes, it looks to be significant.

Payman Langroudi: But so what [00:21:25] are you doing increasing vertical. Like what is it. What.

Anni Seaborne: It’s just getting your jaw in the best position. [00:21:30] Kind of the most efficient position basically. Um to really align everything [00:21:35] and get your posture. It’s just but it’s that maintenance, isn’t it, of, um, [00:21:40] that posture. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess a lot, a lot of sports.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry is about [00:21:45] just the lifestyle bit around the dentistry itself. It’s [00:21:50] just regular dentistry on irregular people. Exactly.

Anni Seaborne: So nothing I do is revolutionary. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: Um, I think I do a lot more trauma than the average dentist and probably [00:22:00] a lot more confident with dealing with trauma, but otherwise a lot of it is being [00:22:05] a PA to these. They honestly stupid time like stupid hours. [00:22:10] You get messages having to be accommodating to them, having to understand their sport to treatment [00:22:15] plan appropriately. So the way you may treatment plan a normal [00:22:20] kind of an accountant or finance person in the city versus how you treat treatment plan. [00:22:25] An athlete may be different based on their cycles. Are they in the middle of a World Cup? Are they at the beginning of the season? Are they [00:22:30] at the end of the season? Um, are they young? Are they going to do media duties? What, [00:22:35] like what’s going on in their life? Are they in the country or are they about to go abroad [00:22:40] or go travel the world? Do like with the formula one? Um, I do a lot of stuff on [00:22:45] call and then they have a little window, which basically just happening now where we try and get them in, sort [00:22:50] anything. And it’s a nightmare when anything happens mid-season, when I say I treat formula one, but I treat the whole team, so it’s [00:22:55] the whole race team behind the two drivers as well. Um, yeah. It’s [00:23:00] a nightmare being.

Payman Langroudi: Constantly around the world, right?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, exactly. So it would be [00:23:05] like one week there in Las Vegas and now they’ve just been, I think in Abu Dhabi, like [00:23:10] all over the place. Um, so it’s knowing when they’re going to be back. [00:23:15] And it’s right. Is that temporary filling going to last, or am I going to have to actually [00:23:20] do something a bit more permanent, even though it’s temporary? Um, because actually they’re going to be away for another [00:23:25] month. Um, so it’s a lot of kind of thinking laterally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And really, that’s [00:23:30] where you do need to say you don’t need to know the sport, but you need to know how the sport works.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:23:35] Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: And does it pay.

Payman Langroudi: Does it, does it pay more than regular. Like [00:23:40] how does it pay.

Anni Seaborne: I don’t go into it for the finances.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anni Seaborne: No. [00:23:45] Um, you get paid basically like [00:23:50] a normal patient insurance payouts for trauma, um, and then [00:23:55] some. So sometimes I do the screenings for free, but then you get kind of [00:24:00] the patients in return. Um, occasionally I’ll get paid to go do the scanning and screening, [00:24:05] um, kind of a day rate to go out there. But it’s not it’s not a lucrative.

Payman Langroudi: Friends [00:24:10] and family of the people. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: You And once again, that’s rapport building. So [00:24:15] yeah, I do lots of partners, family, the support team. Um, [00:24:20] you tend to be the go to person that they recommend, especially if you’ve been at a place for [00:24:25] a period of time.

Payman Langroudi: So is there a dental surgery somewhere that the rugby team has or [00:24:30] do they come to you?

Anni Seaborne: They just.

Payman Langroudi: Come.

Anni Seaborne: To me. Where? Literally wherever I am. So, [00:24:35] um, they’ll either I’m split between Surrey and London and [00:24:40] wherever I am and how urgently they need me. They will just turn up wherever I can. They [00:24:45] can be seen. And then I’ve got a good network of dentists I work with. So if I’m not in the country or anything like that, [00:24:50] I’ll then refer them for it if there is an emergency.

Payman Langroudi: And if and dentists abroad [00:24:55] I guess where I mean, for instance, for formula one, you’d better find a dentist in each of these towns.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So [00:25:00] they tend to go. If it’s anything major, they’ll either go, they’ll they’ll call me for an opinion. [00:25:05] Um, and they’ll either go to the local dentist and sometimes I’ll be on the phone or they’ll [00:25:10] if it’s a trauma, they’ll go to the hospital and then they’ll just send everything [00:25:15] over to me to kind of manage and oversee. Um, but yeah, I’ve got there’s I said there’s [00:25:20] a good network of support as a WhatsApp group of sports dentists across the world. So I, I [00:25:25] know someone somewhere, but also the dental community is great. The amount of [00:25:30] times that you can just be like, do you know anyone? And someone’s going to know someone? Um, and everyone’s [00:25:35] always happy to help.

Payman Langroudi: At what stage.

Payman Langroudi: Did you get to Bupa? How [00:25:40] many years after you qualified? When? When did Bupa come into the picture?

Anni Seaborne: When did Bupa. So I [00:25:45] did. So qualified. Did my training year in Cardiff. I then locums [00:25:50] for six months and travelled for six months. Um, and then it was after that I moved [00:25:55] to London and I got a job at the Bupa in Chelsea. Um.

Payman Langroudi: My wife.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly. [00:26:00] Yeah. Um, so. Yeah. [00:26:05] So that was back in 20. He. When was that [00:26:10] been? 2018.

Payman Langroudi: And this this new move that you’ve made into the sort of the management [00:26:15] side, was that your first move in that direction?

Anni Seaborne: No, no. So, um, [00:26:20] I’ve done a couple of kind of corporate business stuff. So I [00:26:25] first, after my leukaemia, I joined Bupa and I had [00:26:30] a two day, two day a week job. And I’ll be honest, I wasn’t enjoying NHS life, [00:26:35] um, wasn’t enjoying my dentistry, had just come back from travelling. I was like, this isn’t [00:26:40] really what I want to do. Um, so did the classic go into facial do a facial aesthetics [00:26:45] course? Um, so did that. But then I made a decision. I was actually, I’m not going to dabble in this. I’m actually [00:26:50] going to join a facial aesthetics company. Um, so [00:26:55] I joined one who took me on just straight off the course. They trained me up, did internal training, and worked for [00:27:00] them three days a week. And then actually over the next year, I worked my way up to medical director of that company. [00:27:05] So we ran nine clinics in London. So by the age of I think 25 or 26, I was medical [00:27:10] director of this company. So I was working one day a week in the office and then injecting two days. So that’s [00:27:15] when I started to learn about everything business, about what EBITDA meant, what all [00:27:20] the marketing, everything that goes on in terms of running a business. Um, alongside this, [00:27:25] um, back in 2018, I also had a big injury, um, which actually kind of I didn’t [00:27:30] know at the time, but stopped my lacrosse career. I never quite made it back from it.

Anni Seaborne: Um, and so [00:27:35] I made a decision when they were, um, the Wales Lacrosse Board. So I played for Wales, and, um, [00:27:40] I applied to be a member of the board as an ordinary member. So that was also kind of a step [00:27:45] into learning how businesses and organisations are run. So I was [00:27:50] doing that. I did that for actually 3 or 4 years. So as part of the world lacrosse boards, I saw kind of the [00:27:55] how they said manage everything. Um, so unfortunately in Covid, [00:28:00] the aesthetics company I worked for got bought out by a larger company, which [00:28:05] I didn’t quite align with. Um, so made the decision to step away, go back into dentistry. [00:28:10] And this was also tying up with me having started my, um, well, I was already [00:28:15] mid sports dentistry masters, so I was like, I need to go back into dentistry if I’m going to be providing the service. I can’t just [00:28:20] do it on one and a half days a week. Um, so took actually, that was the [00:28:25] first time that I was probably doing full dentistry for a while. Um, [00:28:30] and yeah, and then this opportunity came up at the actually, it was about [00:28:35] September time last year. Um, they put out the adverts within Bupa [00:28:40] saying that we’re creating a new clinical advisory team, um, looking for a director of dentistry, [00:28:45] director of um, nursing and hygiene and therapy and. [00:28:50] Yeah, and that’s how it started.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a comfort, like a.

Payman Langroudi: Confident [00:28:55] person who does all that. Right? It’s very you got to be confident to say [00:29:00] right of the I don’t know how many 1600 dentists in Bupa. [00:29:05] I could be director of dentistry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, there’s 2800. There you.

Payman Langroudi: Go. There you [00:29:10] go.

Anni Seaborne: I looked at it and as I said, I [00:29:15] wasn’t quite qualified to be it. But then I looked around and I was looking at what they were looking [00:29:20] for, and I was like, you could be a dentist for 30, 40 years and still not be qualified [00:29:25] for this job role because it isn’t a clinical role. Um, [00:29:30] and then I happened to read something in the, I think it was the Harvard Law Review [00:29:35] or something like that. And I say I read it, I think I saw it on TikTok or something like that, but [00:29:40] that was the source of it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: That’s where it originally came from. And [00:29:45] it was, um, something [00:29:50] like 98% of men will apply for a job there, only 60% qualified [00:29:55] for, but only like 60% of women would qualify for [00:30:00] a job there. 98% qualified for. So I was just like, well, do you know what? I [00:30:05] may as well apply. What’s the worst that can happen? That can happen. Um, I’ll get to learn [00:30:10] from the experience. Um, I had already some experience in [00:30:15] running a business. A much smaller one, nine smaller aesthetic chains. But [00:30:20] I was like, I potentially have more experience than some people. Um, in terms of this [00:30:25] business. I have big ideas. I have purpose. I wanted to change and [00:30:30] disrupt the industry. I’ve known that from the start. Um, and [00:30:35] I just thought, why not? I said, what the worst thing that happened is I’m doing the exact [00:30:40] same thing that I was doing already, and. Yeah, and then it was a long process. [00:30:45] It was a proper corporate interview thing. So there was a there was a talent day initially, and [00:30:50] then there was, um, we had to do a self-tape. Um, [00:30:55] and then we got invited, I think. What was the next process? We then [00:31:00] got invited to pitch an our pitch to the board, so I had to pitch to Mark Gallen, um, [00:31:05] the GM and Fezzan, who’s one of our regional clinical directors, and [00:31:10] we were given, I think, four days preparation and what the pitch was about. Um, and then I [00:31:15] had two further interviews.

Payman Langroudi: What did you say?

Anni Seaborne: Well, in the pitch, um, [00:31:20] I’m trying to remember what the question was. It was something like three things that you would change or what were the three [00:31:25] most important things would be to you? I’m trying to remember what I said. Um, one was definitely [00:31:30] nursing. I think was prioritising nursing because I think you can’t [00:31:35] do your job without a nurse, basically. And we need to respect them [00:31:40] more. Yeah. Um, I one of my big passion projects is eliminating [00:31:45] this hierarchy within dentistry. It’s. We just have different job roles. That’s all it is. We’re [00:31:50] one team working to the same goal, and we’re just different job roles. And we [00:31:55] are not better than nurses. We’re just doing a different job and we don’t appreciate [00:32:00] that enough. So that was one of my I think that’s the thing I led with. Um, [00:32:05] I’m trying to think what the other ones. One was high performance in general. [00:32:10] Um, so obviously coming from my sporting background, I personally think the whole Dental structure, [00:32:15] as it has been historically, is self self-employed associates. Once [00:32:20] again, this whole hierarchy thing is the opposite of high performance. If you were in a sports team, this [00:32:25] is not how you would operate. Um, and it’s just looking [00:32:30] at how you can restructure and re change the [00:32:35] kind of the dynamic and the culture.

Payman Langroudi: When we started this company, I [00:32:40] kind of had this touchy feely idea because back then it was like a Google was supposed [00:32:45] to be really like fun and, and, and and then I realised, I mean, [00:32:50] the sort of today’s way that people think about companies is pro sports team. [00:32:55] It is that. Yeah. You know, I used to think of the of the company as a family and [00:33:00] think that’s different. And it’s not a family. It’s not. Yeah. As much as by the way, [00:33:05] you know, your hygienist isn’t a rock star. You know, like, you know what [00:33:10] your hygiene is this whole thing about rock star. Rock star. It’s not a family. Yeah, [00:33:15] it’s not a family. As much as we like to feel it is. It is not. No. Yeah. [00:33:20] You can’t expel people from your family. No, you can’t bring people into your family. [00:33:25] Yeah. Business is more like a pro sports team. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And you’ve got to get the best [00:33:30] out of people. Exactly. You’ve got to create an environment that they can thrive. But equally, yes, you can’t, but [00:33:35] you don’t want deadweight.

Payman Langroudi: Well, my point is, if there are associates who are amazing team players, [00:33:40] then it’s it’s, you know, the idea that you have to get rid of the [00:33:45] self-employed thing. Yeah. To fix your problem might not be necessarily the case.

Anni Seaborne: That’s the thing. [00:33:50] I don’t think it’s a case of getting rid of the self-employed, But I think that inherently [00:33:55] creates.

Payman Langroudi: That created it in the first place.

Anni Seaborne: It allows a certain mindset. Um, [00:34:00] but I don’t think the answer is getting rid of that, but it’s trying to work out how can we make [00:34:05] everyone a great team player, when all they’ve known since they’ve graduated [00:34:10] is that you don’t have to be, or they’ve been allowed to not be.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so tell me you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Been involved [00:34:15] in lots of sports teams.

Anni Seaborne: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Are there some that are toxic.

Anni Seaborne: Do [00:34:20] you know I.

Payman Langroudi: And some that are amazing. Like are there different cultures within different [00:34:25] sports teams. There are.

Anni Seaborne: Ones I personally as in as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Or person.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve [00:34:30] got so much experience of teams. Right.

Anni Seaborne: Teams. Yeah. Um. Have [00:34:35] there been toxic? They they come in waves. I don’t think any team is perfect all the time. [00:34:40] And it will be change each season, and personnel will come [00:34:45] and go. Coaches come, go. And it changes how people react. And [00:34:50] I think the, the the difficult balance is giving everyone [00:34:55] a certain level of autonomy, making sure they’re empowered versus having too much of a voice. Mhm. [00:35:00] And you see this both at kind of business level and at [00:35:05] literally the sport level, is that you want everyone to be able to feel comfortable to say what’s on their [00:35:10] mind. But at no point do you want the team starting to overrule the coach [00:35:15] or having too much of an opinion that the coach’s voice is diminished a bit and there’s almost not that authority [00:35:20] with it? So I haven’t been part of what [00:35:25] we’d say a toxic team. But I’ve definitely seen highs where we’re really flying [00:35:30] and times where we’re drowning because and then everyone’s trying to fight for it and trying really [00:35:35] hard. But actually we’re not cohesive and it doesn’t [00:35:40] create, as said that that environment that we’re thriving in.

Payman Langroudi: So the parallels, [00:35:45] if you if we could sort of wave a magic wand and I introduce you to a [00:35:50] Russian billionaire who’s going to fund your chain of dental practices? Yeah. [00:35:55] The parallels that you’d bring over from from from sports. What would you change [00:36:00] if you could? I mean, look, Bupa amazing. What an amazing organisation. But changing anything [00:36:05] at Bupa is going to be very difficult. It’s a massive organisation.

Anni Seaborne: It’s massive.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an oil tanker. [00:36:10] Yeah. Let’s imagine you had this, this, this thing that you could just design from the ground up. What [00:36:15] would you do to get this like high performing dental [00:36:20] team?

Anni Seaborne: Priority would be the environment. [00:36:25] So creating practices that people are proud to work in is something [00:36:30] that I think is really important. Because you go, it’s your place of work. You go in day in, day out. It’s [00:36:35] your if your environment is nice and you’re proud of it, you’re going to want to do good work [00:36:40] and want to work hard to kind of stay in that place.

Payman Langroudi: Also a way [00:36:45] of for nurses to progress an easier way for I think the corporate actually it’s quite good [00:36:50] corporates. Great. Because we can become an area manager or something. It’s a, it’s a nice thing. Could [00:36:55] go all the way up. Right.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: If they really want to. But what else.

Anni Seaborne: What [00:37:00] else? If I could wave a magic wand. Um, creating more kind of learning opportunities. [00:37:05] I said for everyone, um, CPD in-house, basically [00:37:10] doing the courses.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, I, we have this thing with enlightened where we [00:37:15] say, oh, listen, for one week, really focus on teeth whitening and do this, that and the other. And it’s [00:37:20] a bit of a complicated thing because they have to change the way they work. Right? And then I always make this [00:37:25] point about how to compensate for the fact that we’re now asking the receptionist [00:37:30] to do this, that and that. What can we do to make it much more fun to come to [00:37:35] work?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve sat in hundreds of practices asked that [00:37:40] question, and everyone’s blank.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I and I [00:37:45] reflect on it and say it might be. The most important question that needs to be answered [00:37:50] is, how can you make work more fun for everyone? Yeah. And yet [00:37:55] nobody has an answer to. It’s almost like work and fun aren’t [00:38:00] allowed to be mentioned in the same sentence. Yeah. Maybe that’s part of it. Yeah. [00:38:05]

Anni Seaborne: I think it’s. Do you know what? That’s that’s the question I basically lead every practice visit with. [00:38:10] I say blue sky thinking. What was your what would your perfect day at work look like? [00:38:15] Ignoring the stereotypes of what a day at work looks like for a dentist. And [00:38:20] people are just like all I care about is my nurse turns up and my chair works. Like [00:38:25] that’s all people care about. That the day runs smoothly, [00:38:30] and it’s because we’re not exposed to that kind of other corporate side. Um, that it can [00:38:35] be so much more than that. And I don’t know what that looks like. Obviously, we’ve still got to have service provision. We’ve still got to be able [00:38:40] to look after the patients. Um. Um, but [00:38:45] yeah, that that is the feedback that I get when I, when I ask because I’m like, come on, let’s give me some good ideas. [00:38:50] What can we roll with? And honestly, every single person just says, as long as I can, [00:38:55] all I have to worry about is the clinical side of things. That’s a good day. I’m more than content. [00:39:00] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Sad, isn’t it?

Anni Seaborne: It is sad because, you see, and I’ve been exposed to [00:39:05] this other side of the corporate world, um, where you do have kind of fancier [00:39:10] dinners and public speaking and nice, um, kind [00:39:15] of entertainment. And I’m like, oh, it could. This is fun. [00:39:20] I remember the first day I went into shows how simple I am, but the first day I went into the Bupa head office [00:39:25] down in Burbank and I got to go to the canteen, and that was just I [00:39:30] was like, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Believe it’s not even.

Anni Seaborne: It’s not free, but.

Payman Langroudi: Subsidised.

Anni Seaborne: A whole meal for £2.50. [00:39:35] And I was like piling up my plates and the best cookies and all of this. And I was like, this [00:39:40] is amazing. I’m a simple gal, but it’s. But it’s things like [00:39:45] that and I’m like it. Can you. It’s a shame, actually, because [00:39:50] you are just in this little small local practice. And if a lot of people, they are very content with that. But it’s [00:39:55] trying to be like, how can we be different?

Payman Langroudi: What’s really a shame is that I don’t know, were you at the [00:40:00] we were just talking about at the, um, private dentistry awards? Yes. Yeah. Me too. And [00:40:05] these amazing innovations for patients. Yeah. Beautiful practices. Coffee [00:40:10] on demand. You know, like. Yeah. Wonderful things that we’re doing for our patients. And yet [00:40:15] the back end, it’s.

Anni Seaborne: What are we doing for.

Payman Langroudi: Very, very similar. It hasn’t changed that much. [00:40:20] Yes. It’s changed. It’s changed since my day. It has. Yeah. Um, where they used to heat up their [00:40:25] lunch and the autoclave or something ridiculous like that. Yeah. But certainly. But. But it hasn’t changed enough. [00:40:30] No. When you consider how much things have changed for patients. Painless injections, [00:40:35] you know, digital everything. Yeah. Beautiful waiting rooms. Listen to [00:40:40] music and watch movies while you’re having your treatment done. You know, we’re really on to trying to make [00:40:45] the patient experience much better. Some some people are, but the staff experience [00:40:50] is lacking. It’s lacking.

Anni Seaborne: It is. And my view [00:40:55] is if you can empower and engage the staff, that ultimately leads to [00:41:00] better performance, better overall engagement. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think [00:41:05] look, with notable exceptions. Yeah, there are there are places where people have a great time and love there. Yeah. [00:41:10] Yeah. It exists. It exists. And I guess that’s your whole job right now. Right now to make it like that.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, [00:41:15] that’s what I’m trying.

Payman Langroudi: But but it’s a funny thing, [00:41:20] you know, especially in medical. We seem to, I don’t know. It feels like your, [00:41:25] uh, boyfriend’s a doctor.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The sacrifice of [00:41:30] the medic, the sacrifice that they make. It’s almost a whole system is running [00:41:35] on that sacrifice.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Like if they did. If they. If they worked my my brother’s a doctor. [00:41:40] If he worked to the letter of his contract and everyone did and all the nurses did.

Anni Seaborne: It wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Run. The hospital [00:41:45] would just fall apart. Yeah. Like, why is that a thing? Why should it be like that?

Anni Seaborne: It’s [00:41:50] honestly the thing he. I know I’m probably biased, but he’s amazing. [00:41:55] He’s super intelligent, super hard working, really ambitious. Yet he’s [00:42:00] stuck in this system that doesn’t reward it at all. And he’s just service [00:42:05] provision. And he will do the extra hours and he will get to the [00:42:10] same end point at the same rate as the person next to him who has done the bare minimum. Um, [00:42:15] and it’s depressing. And he’s, he’s already looking at not not outs from the industry because he loves [00:42:20] he loves surgery. He absolutely adores when he’s actually operating. He’s an orthopaedic. [00:42:25] So he loves it when he’s operating. But everything else about [00:42:30] the system he despises and he’s and he’s also there was [00:42:35] probably about a year that he was like, oh, I’ll work out how to change it. I want to do a management course, I want to do [00:42:40] all of this. And then he was like, the reality is it’s not going to change, and I can’t do it because [00:42:45] I said I was like, well, why don’t you just speak up, do something like, because that’s what I do. I’m a bit mouthy and [00:42:50] I have an opinion. Um, and it’s because I care. Everything is because I care and I want [00:42:55] it to be better. Um, but he was like, you can’t with the NHS. Like, who’s going to listen? [00:43:00] What’s going to happen? And he’s now gone to what lots of other people have done and said he hasn’t left [00:43:05] the industry, but he’s already working out ways that he can do the minimum, his exit plan [00:43:10] once he’s done his consultancy exam and can [00:43:15] work out what to do because it’s not for him. It’s like, I don’t want to be a slave to the NHS because that’s what they are. They [00:43:20] are slaves to the system.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, echoes of that in NHS [00:43:25] dentistry too.

Anni Seaborne: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no doubt about that.

Anni Seaborne: I, I [00:43:30] have a small NHS contract, children’s only um, which is absolutely [00:43:35] fine, and I’m very lucky to have that. Um, but I originally joined Chelsea [00:43:40] with an NHS contract, and I struggled. I [00:43:45] really, really struggled. A lot of it was because I was on my own. It was a it’s basically, [00:43:50] well, it’s now fully private practice, but it was set up as a private practice with a small [00:43:55] NHS contract that I was doing on my own. Patients didn’t quite get it, so they’d have their [00:44:00] lovely coffee and all of that and then have high expectations. And [00:44:05] I just struggled with the service provision, trying to get the uda’s, um, [00:44:10] kind of done, whilst also we didn’t have amalgam in our practice, so I was having to do composite [00:44:15] for everything, which obviously takes a lot longer. Yeah. Um, and [00:44:20] it’s also that, I’ll be honest, there’s a bit of an ethical dilemma. A lot of the times I think dentists, every time [00:44:25] they’re treating a patient, it’s been like, am I upselling them a composite? Is it? I [00:44:30] think it’s in the back of your mind all the time. Can I do like, can I do an [00:44:35] amalgam or actually is a composite better. Is it one that I should be providing on the NHS or should I be? [00:44:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Doing that whole third party thing totally does my head in. I did my head in [00:44:45] the fact that I’ve got me and the patient and the situation. Yeah, that’s enough issues there. [00:44:50] Yeah. Right there. There’s enough issues to meet the patient and the situation, let alone a third party. Yeah. [00:44:55] Telling me what I can and can’t do or whatever. Rules and regulations. Right. Um, let’s [00:45:00] say we were going to fix it. Yeah. I’m not even going to bother asking you how [00:45:05] to fix, but, but but let’s imagine you wouldn’t do it like [00:45:10] this. You wouldn’t switch it off overnight. But let’s imagine we switched it off overnight. No NHS dentistry. Yeah. [00:45:15] None. Zero. Yeah. The 2.5% of healthcare [00:45:20] budget that’s going to NHS dentistry. Give back to people in their taxes. [00:45:25] Yeah. Now everyone pay for their dentistry. Yeah. It wouldn’t be that all practices [00:45:30] would be expensive private practices? No, there would be a range of private practices. Yeah, [00:45:35] there would be the independent ones, the cheaper ones. And then there’d still be the Harley Street ones and, [00:45:40] you know, the market would, would organise. Of course, you know, I’m not I’m not that [00:45:45] right wing to say, oh, markets solve everything. I’m not saying that. Yeah. Because things [00:45:50] like Dental insurance in jobs that we don’t my team do not have dental [00:45:55] insurance. They don’t. It’s not something they demand from their employer. But if there was [00:46:00] no NHS, maybe something like that would be part of the benefits of a job. Yeah. Do I get dental [00:46:05] like in America? Yeah, but my point is, at least you wouldn’t have the [00:46:10] the system that everyone agrees is broken. Everyone. I can’t find a single person. [00:46:15] I’ve had 250 people sit here. Yeah. I haven’t found a single person. Say, yeah, NHS [00:46:20] is working great. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Loads of patients are being treated. Yeah, [00:46:25] but I don’t know personally if a friend or family says they have a toothache. Yeah, [00:46:30] I do not advise. Go find yourself an NHS dentist. I do not. I do not. In fact, I expressly [00:46:35] go the other way. So definitely don’t go and see an NHS dentist. It’s just sad.

Anni Seaborne: It’s so [00:46:40] sad. And I also think the NHS and this is not just dentistry, [00:46:45] medical, everything has created this mentality that people aren’t willing to pay for healthcare as well. [00:46:50] And they they almost see private dentistry as an aesthetic option. [00:46:55] There’s a whole camp of people and then but the healthcare part is NHS and they expect it to [00:47:00] be free or heavily discounted. Yeah. And it’s crazy to me that people will [00:47:05] go get their nails done and for the same cost. You can go, as I said, not not super fancy. [00:47:10] Um, private practice, but just a standard private practice. Get a check up, look after your health of your [00:47:15] teeth, or you can go get your, I don’t know, your hair done. The cost of a filling [00:47:20] that’s lasting, hopefully at least ten years, whereas your hair is only going to last a couple of [00:47:25] months. Um, Um, and it’s a mindset thing. So if you almost removed it, people [00:47:30] would be like, okay, well we’re going to have to pay for it anyway. Yeah. Um, it’s like private doctors. [00:47:35] That’s the thing that really baffles me. When people are ill and they won’t, they’ll wait and they’ll moan and moan and moan and I’m like, [00:47:40] if £50 to go see a private GP. Yes, I know there could be a lot of extra [00:47:45] costs on top of it. Um, but I think it’s literally because of the NHS [00:47:50] option that people don’t value their healthcare. They almost think that healthcare is [00:47:55] free and they put no value on it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in Holland, um, they it’s free. They’ve [00:48:00] got they’ve got an NHS version, but they give you the bill, they show you the bill.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You don’t pay it, but they show it to you. So you have a baby or something. They show [00:48:10] you the £6,000 that the Dutch health system spent.

Anni Seaborne: So they do that in Scotland actually, [00:48:15] because they’ve got a slightly higher fee per item, but they’ve got a cap and I think it’s around 300, approximately [00:48:20] 300 something pounds. So you’ll never pay more than that. But they’ll show you [00:48:25] the printout. How much more that actually it was fee per item properly. Yeah. This [00:48:30] is how much more it will cost.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a funny thing man, [00:48:35] because it’s it’s health is now more funded than it’s ever been. It’s not like [00:48:40] it’s been unfunded defunded. Yeah. There’s more money going to health than it’s ever [00:48:45] gone before. And yet we sort of hark back and say, oh, now everything’s bankrupt. And, [00:48:50] you know, it’s a funny situation. The situation is the country can’t afford [00:48:55] free health care. No, you know, that’s the thing. And so things like what we’re saying [00:49:00] about people saving up for their kids braces, let’s say, or whatever, or [00:49:05] people having dental insurance or these that, that cultural change [00:49:10] has to happen in the same way as it did when I went to university. It was free. Yeah, [00:49:15] completely free. In fact, some people actually got money. They got grants. Yeah. [00:49:20] My guys.

Anni Seaborne: They made.

Payman Langroudi: Money. Yeah. One of the guys I was living with, he was getting he was getting money every, every month, [00:49:25] every term from the government. My mind was completely [00:49:30] free. Now, today, you know.

Anni Seaborne: 45,000 to do a dental degree.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Yeah. [00:49:35] You pay and people understand that that, you know, they get it. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: You accept.

Payman Langroudi: It. So so society [00:49:40] can change in that way. Another sort of bugbear I’ve got I know what you think about this [00:49:45] is we’ve got the best of everything here, but the average is very low. So [00:49:50] you want the best food?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Around one mile away from here, you can get the [00:49:55] best food in the world. Yeah. But if you walk into a random place.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. You [00:50:00] don’t know what you’re getting.

Payman Langroudi: The best university in the world. We have them, right? Oxford and Cambridge. Yeah. Or [00:50:05] the best schools. We’ve got the best schools in the world. You walk into a random school? Yeah, the quality of that. And [00:50:10] it’s. It’s almost the way the country’s set up. Yeah. Is that it has both [00:50:15] ends. But not the middle.

Anni Seaborne: But not the middle. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and then you get the other way. The [00:50:20] the Scandinavian countries. Well, it’s only in the middle.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:50:25] and I was talking to my Swedish, uh, distributor, and somebody came up, somebody [00:50:30] said there’s a private members club or something, and he went, what’s that? And I said, it’s [00:50:35] a place where you pay to to be a member. Yeah. And he said, look, in Sweden, if [00:50:40] you mentioned that, everyone would just take the piss out of you, everyone would think you’re. It’s ridiculous. No [00:50:45] one would want to go to a place like that. Yeah. And so. So you know what I mean? Like the culture [00:50:50] of elite and and and the bottom. And nothing in the middle sets up the [00:50:55] way the country ends up.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And I think we feed into that almost a little bit, as in the, [00:51:00] the Dental industry, you’re seeing a lot more show, a lot more glam, which I think is great. [00:51:05] But you’re definitely then creating this elite and once again, you’re kind of disassociating it [00:51:10] from healthcare. Yeah. Again, which it has its place. And I’m not going to say [00:51:15] no like no to it, but it does. I said create that disparity even [00:51:20] more because it’s almost.

Payman Langroudi: Perpetuates.

Anni Seaborne: It. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about two things [00:51:25] I noticed you’re involved with that.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah I am. So, um. Lovely. [00:51:30] Chemik, the founder of tooth Angel. He was actually on my sports dentistry course.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, he did it too. [00:51:35]

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, he did it too. Oh, really? Um, he loves Liverpool Football [00:51:40] Club.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah, he does, he does, he does. Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I think that was his driver. Really?

Payman Langroudi: He just loves to be their [00:51:45] dentist.

Anni Seaborne: Even though he’s nowhere near Liverpool. Sham. Sham I know. Bless [00:51:50] him. But he, um, he came to me last year with this opportunity or maybe at the beginning [00:51:55] of the year, um, to be involved with them as one of their kind of founding investors. [00:52:00] And I think it’s great. I mean, sustainability is the future that also premium [00:52:05] products that have been tested and the other people, um, who are kind of part [00:52:10] of the the Fab 11, I think he calls us or something fabulous [00:52:15] or something like that. I probably got it wrong. Magnificent 11. The the kind of founders. [00:52:20] Founding investors. Yeah. The angels. Exactly. Shams. Angels. Yeah. Um, [00:52:25] they were all such amazing people that I’ve, like, looked up to. And I was like, well, [00:52:30] this opportunity to be involved with a brand that is. I said, we know it’s good quality products [00:52:35] and really good for the environment. I thought it was an awesome opportunity. Um, and it’s been great [00:52:40] to be involved, and it’s another kind of opportunity to learn how the business works. This this is more like product related. [00:52:45] Um, did you.

Payman Langroudi: Invest cash?

Anni Seaborne: Yes I did.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re part owner [00:52:50] of the.

Anni Seaborne: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. Um, I’m the small owner because I [00:52:55] only had a small amount of money. But he let me in anyway. Um, [00:53:00] but. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I’ve invested in it because I genuinely think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:53:05] of him paying you to be the the key opinion leader. You paid him? I know right?

Anni Seaborne: I [00:53:10] know he’s making.

Anni Seaborne: Me work hard for it as well to get my cash back.

Payman Langroudi: So go on, explain it. What [00:53:15] is it for people? Someone who doesn’t know what tooth Angel is.

Anni Seaborne: So premium oral health care products. So we’ve got [00:53:20] toothpaste, floss, mouth spray and toothbrush. Um, but with huge [00:53:25] sustainability angle. So everything has been really thought through, um, with [00:53:30] kind of backed research. So for example, our toothbrush, it’s a manual toothbrush, plastic [00:53:35] handle, um, which the idea is you keep for life and then you can replace the heads because it’s the heads are the reason [00:53:40] that you need to get rid of them. So it’s replaceable heads that you can then recycle and you keep the hands [00:53:45] up for life. And the reason we’ve gone with manual, um, is because actually we found that even if [00:53:50] you own electric toothbrush, at no point saying don’t use an electric toothbrush, but we found, well, [00:53:55] one, I think I can’t remember the exact figure, but something like 52% of people still use manual as [00:54:00] their primary toothbrush, and pretty much everyone who has an electric [00:54:05] will still have a manual in their house or to travel with or anything like that. So that’s kind of the [00:54:10] idea. And the idea is that you just have one full life and just replace the heads. Um, floss is made from recycled [00:54:15] water bottles. Um, and that’s honestly, I think the [00:54:20] hero product, um, toothpaste. Uh, he’s sham has worked really hard [00:54:25] with the toothpaste. Scott. Hydroxyapatite in it. Fluoride. It’s got all the good stuff. None of the bad stuff. Um, [00:54:30] and the toothpaste tubes are made of, um, sugar cane, so [00:54:35] they can be completely recycled as well. And then there’s a nice little mouth spray in a glass bottle, which. [00:54:40]

Payman Langroudi: Hydroxyapatite and fluoride in the toothpaste makes bind together to fluorapatite. [00:54:45]

Anni Seaborne: Um.

Payman Langroudi: In the, in the tube. And hence when you put it on the tooth, it [00:54:50] doesn’t bind to fluorapatite. You know, fluoride.

Anni Seaborne: Said the wrong.

Anni Seaborne: Thing.

Anni Seaborne: No, no. [00:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: It’s, uh, we have the same problem. Yeah. Um, so maybe he’s got a nano [00:55:00] form of hydroxy.

Anni Seaborne: I should know this. I should.

Anni Seaborne: Ask Chad, get sham on and get him to [00:55:05] deep dive into.

Anni Seaborne: This before I stick my foot.

Payman Langroudi: In it. I said the wrong thing.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:55:10] know we got the exact same problem [00:55:15] with that black one over there. Yes. Fluoride and hydroxyapatite. Um, but it’s problematic, [00:55:20] right? Because you want to put hydroxyapatite in a toothpaste. But if you don’t put fluoride in the [00:55:25] toothpaste, no dentist will buy it.

Anni Seaborne: He is. I think he’s planning on creating a fluoride free one.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:55:30] are we. So we could now.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Suddenly, now the fastest growing area in [00:55:35] oral care. Um, so that’d be much easier, I think. The nightmares we went through just to get fluoride [00:55:40] into this tube. Yeah. Um, but it didn’t make sense. Like 14 [00:55:45] years ago when we brought that out. No way would you have put a toothpaste out to dentists that. [00:55:50]

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Have fluoride.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the funny things about products. Products [00:55:55] are so difficult. So hard.

Anni Seaborne: Well, I’ve said I’m lucky that he’d already kind of developed them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:56:00] yeah, yeah.

Anni Seaborne: But it is. Yeah. It’s hard to get it right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the problem with products is you [00:56:05] have so many hundreds of thousands of them to get anywhere. Yeah. You know, it’s the opposite of, you know, [00:56:10] the orthodontist. And she was saying, yeah, 100 patients, 100 new patients a [00:56:15] year is wonderful for an orthodontist. Yeah. You can run a massive ortho business with [00:56:20] 100 patients a year. It’s not the case with £10.

Payman Langroudi: Products.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Payman Langroudi: £6 products. Right? Exactly. [00:56:25]

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about. Let’s get to a darker part.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Errors. [00:56:30]

Anni Seaborne: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about clinical errors so that [00:56:35] we can learn from each other’s errors. When I say clinical errors [00:56:40] what comes to mind.

Anni Seaborne: Ah I was having a think about this. [00:56:45] And I mean obviously I’ve made loads of errors. I regularly look at composites [00:56:50] I’ve done and be like, oh, this is embarrassing. Especially the more magnification loops I get. I’m [00:56:55] like, oh no, that was me that put that in. Um, the one [00:57:00] that I think has stuck with me most actually is a facial aesthetics error. Um, because that [00:57:05] kind of almost unfolded in real time with a customer and unhappy customer. And when [00:57:10] you’re mixing up Botox, Botox comes as a powder and you mix it up with saline [00:57:15] and you’re meant to mix up with bacteriostatic saline. And this was I was probably like a month or two into [00:57:20] my job at the the Facial Aesthetics Clinic, and I was covering actually in a different [00:57:25] clinic to the one that was kind of my home base, and it was a Saturday, so no one there was [00:57:30] kind of no help. And at this point I was like, okay, I’m good at Botox. I’ve got this. And I went in and they didn’t [00:57:35] have the standard bacteriostatic saline that I was used to. And so I was looking around and then [00:57:40] I found this like big box of water for injection. Right. And um, so I was like, [00:57:45] maybe this is it. I didn’t really know enough about it. Um, and I was like, well, it’s water [00:57:50] for injection. It must be safe to inject probably. That’s it. It says saline on it. It’ll [00:57:55] be fine. So I mix that up. What I didn’t realise is that that causes, um, [00:58:00] stinging. Right. So the reason you get bacteriostatic is so you don’t feel it. I’ve then [00:58:05] got this, um, American lady come in. She’s had it for years. She knows exactly what it’s [00:58:10] meant to feel like I’m covering. So it’s not her normal clinician.

Payman Langroudi: She’s the perfect. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: Storm.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it? Yeah. Perfect storm.

Anni Seaborne: I’m in a clinic that I first time I’ve been in.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:58:20] nurse didn’t turn up.

Anni Seaborne: So then I start mixing it all up like [00:58:25] this. Fine. Looks exactly the same. Just a little see through solution. Start injecting [00:58:30] her. She’s like, oh. And then I’ve, like, I’ve gone in. I think I’ve done her frown. So five injections [00:58:35] and she just loses it. She’s like, I’m stinging, I’m burning. What have [00:58:40] you done? Like, this is not what it meant to feel like. Like she’s in tears. I’m [00:58:45] there being like, I have no idea what I’ve done at this point. Um, I was [00:58:50] like, have I done the anatomy wrong? Like, what is the need? Is it all of that? And then I was like, oh, it [00:58:55] must be that. But then how do I tell someone there I’m not experienced? I’m only two months in, um, [00:59:00] and even two months in, it’s only kind of three days a week with a lot of it still kind of being the ongoing [00:59:05] training. There’s no one around me. The practice manager is trying to help me calm down the situation, because [00:59:10] I’ve got someone in physical pain that’s not meant to be in pain. Luckily, the stinging goes away. Um, [00:59:15] how long it only lasted? Kind of. Yeah. [00:59:20] If that. Um. But obviously she knows something’s not right. There’s no way of hiding [00:59:25] it. I haven’t got a clue what I’ve done wrong, but I know luckily it didn’t affect [00:59:30] anything clinically. Luckily did not affect anything. It worked. We only did [00:59:35] have found she didn’t do the rest. And understand. What did.

Payman Langroudi: You say?

Payman Langroudi: So what did she say to you?

Anni Seaborne: So [00:59:40] I just was like, well, I blamed the product being like, oh, I don’t know, how about you kind [00:59:45] of come back, we’ll review it. Um, it wasn’t until the [00:59:50] Monday when I’d kind of spoken to the clinical leader that they explained what would happen. They were like, don’t panic. It’s [00:59:55] fine. We can diffuse it. Um, luckily, she didn’t have a reaction or anything after that, [01:00:00] but I just remember being there when someone you’ve literally inflicted pain on someone [01:00:05] I hadn’t got a clue I was. It’s not like I’ve made a mistake. I’ve made clinical mistakes. I’d be like, oh, I should have done [01:00:10] that instead. This one, I was like, I have no idea what’s going on. And someone is currently burning [01:00:15] up in front of me and I’m 23 years old. No one else. [01:00:20] There’s no one else clinical in the building either. There was no other clinician [01:00:25] at.

Payman Langroudi: All that stopped.

Payman Langroudi: Hurting. You thought it might be something awful?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, I was like, I don’t [01:00:30] know what.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to have, like a reaction or.

Anni Seaborne: Something. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: God. [01:00:35]

Payman Langroudi: And, um, I think that’s the one that’s.

Anni Seaborne: Really scarred me because, as I said, I couldn’t. You [01:00:40] can’t hide from it. You’re there. And I said, luckily it wasn’t actually a clinical mistake. I didn’t cause anything. [01:00:45] But it’s one of those.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good one, though. I like that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Anni Seaborne: Things that, as I [01:00:50] said, everything.

Payman Langroudi: I like that.

Payman Langroudi: One.

Anni Seaborne: I was in tears afterwards. [01:00:55] It was.

Payman Langroudi: You. I bet.

Payman Langroudi: You were. Yeah, it was.

Anni Seaborne: Traumatic, to say.

Payman Langroudi: The least. [01:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: Did the patient complain?

Anni Seaborne: Luckily didn’t. Um, she complained [01:01:05] at the time, and it was kind of diffused with the manager and just brought back in. [01:01:10] Saw her regular clinician. I think we explained that it was a I don’t know [01:01:15] whether we blamed that. It was like a faulty.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t remember exactly [01:01:20] what happened. But she did she obviously complained at the time but didn’t do a follow up because I think as I said, [01:01:25] the product worked and actually she didn’t have any reactions from it. Um, but at the [01:01:30] time she was not happy, understandably.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really good to get someone like you to [01:01:35] say something like that. You know, it’s really.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Payman Langroudi: Because on the outside you look like such a superb, [01:01:40] superb. Like everything’s going right for you. You know, it’s one of the things [01:01:45] about social media, right? It’s a highlight.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Highlight reel.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, no one’s stupid enough to think your [01:01:50] life is this blessed thing. Yeah. But on on that front, what are you really bad at?

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:01:55] I. What [01:02:00] am I bad at? I things [01:02:05] that I don’t like, I don’t I try to avoid situations that I am kind [01:02:10] of bad at. I’m very good at asking for help, so I have to manage [01:02:15] to twist that into something I’m very good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What [01:02:20] am I like?

Payman Langroudi: Like a, like an interview question? Why didn’t they ask you when you went for that job? What’s [01:02:25] your biggest weakness?

Anni Seaborne: Well, my biggest weakness is they.

Payman Langroudi: Did you [01:02:30] say you got the job? I know, I know, I [01:02:35] care.

Payman Langroudi: Too.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Anni Seaborne: I [01:02:40] do. You know what that probably is? That actually I hold on to things until someone says no. Um, [01:02:45] and I probably get into a bit of a tunnel on something.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:02:50] as in, as in you, you don’t give up on stuff even after [01:02:55] you really should.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: I will keep persevering.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And sometimes [01:03:00] I probably waste time.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Payman Langroudi: Perseverance is a great skill, man. It’s an important skill.

Anni Seaborne: But I think sometimes [01:03:05] I.

Payman Langroudi: Waste some time.

Anni Seaborne: Doing it and which. But I’ve said that to people, and like I [01:03:10] tell me no, if you tell me no, I’ll stop. But if you don’t, if you don’t say it explicitly, I [01:03:15] will keep hammering on. And I get very emotive about things. [01:03:20] And I think sometimes it’s I’m proud of my emotions and I’m proud that I’m very purpose [01:03:25] driven, and I hold a lot of value to things, and I will keep going [01:03:30] and kind of fight for things. But I think sometimes that can almost cloud my [01:03:35] judgement a little bit. Is my emotions on right and [01:03:40] wrong and I need.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest strength is always your biggest weakness as [01:03:45] well. You know, it ends up.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Anni Seaborne: What’s got me, it’s what’s got me here. But I also think it’s now finding [01:03:50] a balance.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just that.

Payman Langroudi: You can say, oh, Annie is super kind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Amazing. [01:03:55] Sounds amazing. But then sometimes, I don’t know, one day you might need to fire someone. And [01:04:00] you’re so.

Payman Langroudi: Kind.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t have.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation, you know? And suddenly your biggest strength is your biggest [01:04:05] weakness. What else are you bad at?

Anni Seaborne: What else?

Payman Langroudi: My line of questioning.

Anni Seaborne: What [01:04:10] do you know? Do you know what was interesting? I did a talk at Sheffield University and [01:04:15] to their students. And I did my classic. Like, this is where everything I do. [01:04:20] Look at all my accomplishments. And then I was like, what’s what’s not on here is everything I’ve done badly. [01:04:25] And this sounds ridiculous. I, I put a lot of [01:04:30] weight at university on sport. That was my focus was playing lacrosse. That’s real. Dentistry was like a side [01:04:35] of it. But really I was there to train. I wanted to make World Cup. I never made a single major championship. [01:04:40] So with all my caps for Wales, I never made a championship. And to me, that’s [01:04:45] the biggest failure because that was my purpose. I could have probably got away with not graduating dental school and been better, like [01:04:50] more at peace with that than the fact that I never.

Payman Langroudi: Was [01:04:55] good enough.

Payman Langroudi: That it takes right.

Anni Seaborne: To do it. And the reality was I was never good enough. It’s not. At no point [01:05:00] did I think I earned a spot. I deserved a spot over someone else that got selected. [01:05:05] I could look at the team and be like, I don’t. I’m not better than any of you.

Payman Langroudi: And that is that hard [01:05:10] to face.

Anni Seaborne: That is hard to face. And I think and the worst bit is when I had my big [01:05:15] injury, I it happened as I was at a position that I was like, [01:05:20] I am better, I deserve to be on this team. And a lot of people said I was like, you’ve improved [01:05:25] so much. You’re like, you deserve. And I had I had caps for the team. But it was always that kind of the [01:05:30] equivalent of the Six Nations like Home Counties, but never at a major championship. And I was going to make euros [01:05:35] like I was not a dead cert, but this was my year.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:05:40] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: When the injury.

Payman Langroudi: Happened.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. And then I was out for two and a half years.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what was.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Payman Langroudi: Injury? [01:05:45]

Anni Seaborne: It did everything to my leg. You could possibly do ACL, fractured it. Um, meniscus. [01:05:50] Everything went um. And then I’d had three operations to get back at it.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [01:05:55]

Payman Langroudi: So in one incident.

Anni Seaborne: In one incident? Yeah, it was a trauma.

Payman Langroudi: In a game. During a.

Payman Langroudi: Game?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. [01:06:00] Both jumping up for the ball landed. And as I was, like, full extension [01:06:05] landed, someone fell on me, so it just snapped everything.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Anni Seaborne: So.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:06:10] is it like, is that the kind of injury you can’t, you can’t come back from? Is it like that?

Anni Seaborne: I tried.

Payman Langroudi: And I. [01:06:15]

Anni Seaborne: Still play, but I couldn’t. Yeah, I tried coming back to the international [01:06:20] setup and I was just a step behind everyone. And when you when you know you’re a step behind and [01:06:25] I’m a defender so I can’t be a step behind because then I’m not very good at my job. So that’s something I’m bad at now. But [01:06:30] is when when you know you’re not there. And also, I just got to a point where I couldn’t commit [01:06:35] the extra hours to maybe get get there. I couldn’t do that to myself, [01:06:40] um, because there was a lot and my career was building and I was doing all of that. [01:06:45] And Covid happened just as I was about to kind of make my comeback, so that delayed it a little [01:06:50] bit more. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And so then you’re kind of redefining yourself as this [01:06:55] other person and the one that you thought you were going to be.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:00]

Anni Seaborne: I honestly, my purpose for so long was sport and dentistry [01:07:05] just funded it.

Payman Langroudi: And so that was your flip into like, now I’m gonna focus [01:07:10] on dentistry.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, I’m gonna focus on something and I’ve got that drive. I’m competitive [01:07:15] as hell. And that’s probably when my emotions come too much. Like, I am very competitive and I’m very like, [01:07:20] I want to be the best and I want to do the best. And, um, I [01:07:25] think that’s why I’ve kind of just thrown myself into everything [01:07:30] I do now, because I don’t have that sport side of me. And I said, I still I still dabble in it. I play club [01:07:35] and keep that up. But I don’t get that fulfilment from being good at [01:07:40] it anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember a time where you weren’t competitive [01:07:45] and like no, always, always [01:07:50] like sibling rivalry or that sort of thing is.

Payman Langroudi: That I.

Anni Seaborne: Even I remember at school [01:07:55] this once again still triggers me a little bit. Is at school [01:08:00] in sixth form. I didn’t get Head Girl and I actually [01:08:05] went and asked for feedback and they said you were the two obvious choice, but it’s because I’d done everything [01:08:10] in my life to be that obvious choice.

Payman Langroudi: Too obvious.

Payman Langroudi: Choice?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, too obvious a choice.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [01:08:15]

Anni Seaborne: And I was like, but I have purposely done everything to [01:08:20] do that. I’ve played sport. I had.

Payman Langroudi: Um, how did you take [01:08:25] that music? Weird thing to say to obvious. So [01:08:30] who.

Payman Langroudi: Got it? Like the super cool.

Payman Langroudi: Photographer.

Payman Langroudi: Chick? [01:08:35]

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember. It was.

Anni Seaborne: Two girls. No, they were both. I mean, one [01:08:40] went on to do classics at Oxford, and.

Payman Langroudi: The other one.

Anni Seaborne: Was like, yeah, they’re both amazing ladies, [01:08:45] but I remember that was the feedback I got and I was just like, oh, okay. But that’s [01:08:50] my drive is because I was like, I want to.

Payman Langroudi: So along the same lines of do your biggest strength is your biggest [01:08:55] weakness, what is the real downside of being super competitive? We’re kind of getting into it now, right? Is it [01:09:00] is it tiring?

Anni Seaborne: It’s frustrating. Frustrating because [01:09:05] I don’t I hold myself to high level. I hold other people to a high level.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:09:10]

Anni Seaborne: Um, and sometimes that’s not fair on other people.

Payman Langroudi: People disappoint you.

Anni Seaborne: People [01:09:15] disappoint me all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Anni Seaborne: Um. And I. [01:09:20] Yeah. I say people disappoint me all the time. I get frustrated by people all the time. [01:09:25] Um, and because I don’t understand why they don’t have why I say [01:09:30] I’m learning to understand why people don’t have the same drive as me and the same purpose. [01:09:35] And I probably, as I said, once again, I’m too emotive with it and I’m too driven with this and I [01:09:40] don’t understand why other people Don’t feel so strongly about [01:09:45] it, but actually they’re just doing their job.

Payman Langroudi: So it must be frustrating how slow stuff must [01:09:50] move in a huge company like Bupa that must really get to you yet.

Anni Seaborne: I’ve learnt how to deal [01:09:55] with it. It was hard at the start. If I’m completely honest. But I also get their reasoning [01:10:00] and it’s an insurance company at heart, so they are very risk [01:10:05] averse. So everything has to be done properly. But then the perks of it is that if it’s done and it does [01:10:10] go through you, you probably have a good product. You probably have a good system in place when. [01:10:15]

Payman Langroudi: Eventually it gets there.

Anni Seaborne: Because it’s been so rigorously checked out and [01:10:20] gone through every single kind of forum and committee and being kind [01:10:25] of.

Payman Langroudi: You know, from, from the sporting analogy, I feel like that’s defence [01:10:30] kind of way of acting, whereas a lot of times your ideas [01:10:35] offence ideas, you know, and you can’t, you can’t go into a thing with a defence [01:10:40] mindset and expect the same outcome as you’re going with it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And [01:10:45] I think that’s where we’re changing. And I think that’s where Marc is doing a really.

Payman Langroudi: Fantastic.

Anni Seaborne: Job is actually like pivoting [01:10:50] everything. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What’s cool. He’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a cool.

Payman Langroudi: Dude. Yeah, [01:10:55] I’m.

Anni Seaborne: Trying to kind of support him and be a bit more out there. Learn what other people are doing. Um, [01:11:00] so we’re not just stuck in our corporate ways. Yes, we are going to be limited. Our hands are tied [01:11:05] to a certain extent because also everything we do, it’s not like we can roll out for one practice. It’s for [01:11:10] nearly 400 practices. So, um, but I think we are trying [01:11:15] to change things up, um, and be a bit more forward thinking, be a bit more proactive. [01:11:20] And as I said, be a bit more offensive. Um, but yes, you [01:11:25] are right. There’s always going to be a defensive element to it.

Payman Langroudi: And clinically, how many [01:11:30] days are you drilling? Are you drilling less now that you’ve got this job?

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So how many days do you drill? Days and [01:11:35] one day full time?

Anni Seaborne: Two days.

Payman Langroudi: Full time?

Payman Langroudi: Two times. Two days. Full time on the Bupa. [01:11:40] Yeah, on the corporate thing. So what happens on those two days?

Anni Seaborne: Two days. [01:11:45] Um, so a lot of it strategy, um, advising. So a lot of calls with [01:11:50] smaller groups. So for example marketing team, finance team, pricing team. And they’ll just pick your [01:11:55] brains, they’ll normally come to you saying.

Payman Langroudi: They need a clinical in all of those situations.

Anni Seaborne: That’s the idea. Yep. So [01:12:00] it’s being like this is what we’re doing. We’re just going to run it past you. What are your thoughts? [01:12:05] Any immediate red flags? Anything you would advise changing? Um, so [01:12:10] a lot of it is that and then we’ve got our own kind of little personal projects that we push through and work with [01:12:15] the operations team. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And what do.

Payman Langroudi: You mean, what.

Payman Langroudi: Does.

Payman Langroudi: That mean? You’re [01:12:20] allowed to do a project of your own.

Anni Seaborne: Um, well, if we think that there’s something. Yeah, if there’s something that we [01:12:25] feel would benefit, for example, like CPD or anything like that, we’re like, actually, do you know, we [01:12:30] think this would benefit the community and it hasn’t been thought about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: We [01:12:35] can kind of present it and try and get the ball rolling. With that. It’s a little bit harder because starting a project from [01:12:40] scratch, um, but we have that opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: To do that.

Payman Langroudi: So you I mean, [01:12:45] obviously you can say what you think, but then do you then go to a bunch of clinicians and kind [01:12:50] of feel out your ideas or their ideas?

Anni Seaborne: Yeah, exactly. So I spend a lot of time kind of on the ground [01:12:55] practice visits, chatting to people. So I was up in Scotland a couple of weeks ago, um.

Payman Langroudi: Try [01:13:00] and get the rugby thing.

Anni Seaborne: Uh, so I tied it in with that, but I was, I spent two days actually [01:13:05] going around practices in Scotland just meeting everyone. Um, and [01:13:10] yeah, just hearing voices and understanding because I’ve got my [01:13:15] lived experience and my view. But I’m also highly aware I’m now in a private practice in Chelsea. And [01:13:20] the reality is it’s not the same as a fully NHS practice in Newcastle, for example. [01:13:25] So how am I meant to represent that if I don’t know what’s going on?

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Anni Seaborne: So a lot of [01:13:30] it is just having conversations. And I said a lot of it tends to be the common themes of just [01:13:35] give me a good support team and a chair that works, [01:13:40] and a surgery that works and they’re happy. But sometimes there are bigger issues that aren’t [01:13:45] necessarily operational that I can say like, okay, how can we look at this, take a step back, and [01:13:50] what can we do to support you? Or what can we do to kind of evolve Bupa [01:13:55] to make it kind of fit what you what you need? Basically.

Payman Langroudi: How much do you [01:14:00] enjoy the the corporate side more than the clinical side? Or is it the fact that there is a [01:14:05] mix or in your ideal world, would you go up the next stage in the ladder [01:14:10] and do less, less clinical?

Anni Seaborne: I think if I’m honest, I would actually you asked me what I’m bad at. I’m not as [01:14:15] I’m not bad at it, but I’m not as good as clinically as I’d want to be. And, um. [01:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: But.

Payman Langroudi: You’re really enjoying the.

Payman Langroudi: Other side.

Anni Seaborne: I’m really enjoying the other side. And I [01:14:25] am lucky to have it be in a position that I feel like I can make a difference. And I said my my underlying [01:14:30] purpose, I guess, is I want the industry just to be a nicer [01:14:35] place and be a better place for everyone. Not just dentists, not just clinicians, but everyone. Um, [01:14:40] and this job. Yes. I can’t change the industry, but I can slowly [01:14:45] try and change those within Bupa, um, to create a better environment [01:14:50] for everyone. And I’m enjoying having that as a purpose. Whereas I’ll be honest, my purpose [01:14:55] isn’t teeth. Um, and it’s probably clear from the off. Like I said, I’d [01:15:00] rather played sport than done this. Um, and I don’t [01:15:05] love teeth. I don’t love the science of [01:15:10] it. Like, I want to do good by my patients. So I make sure that I do the best I can. [01:15:15] But that’s kind of a self-driven look.

Payman Langroudi: Once you stop fully, fully [01:15:20] stop like I did, you realise what it was that you liked and what it was that you didn’t like? Yeah, and [01:15:25] I certainly didn’t like the Meccano carpentry side of dentistry at all, like, you know, all well [01:15:30] and good. Yeah, but that wasn’t what what I enjoyed was the people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I.

Anni Seaborne: Love the. [01:15:35]

Payman Langroudi: People.

Payman Langroudi: And and so the dentistry is a mix of these people and, and many [01:15:40] other things that some people really enjoy. The treatment planning.

Payman Langroudi: Piece. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which again, I didn’t particularly enjoy [01:15:45] but but you know, I was never a good dentist. I was just, you know, but people I do miss [01:15:50] badly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t meet people. Meet dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:15:55] that’s where you’re kind of going in that direction, too?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And I do want [01:16:00] to keep.

Anni Seaborne: I know I’m not planning on giving up my clinical anytime soon. I’ve got so much to learn, and I can’t. [01:16:05] Also, I can’t do my job if I’m not doing clinical, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. That’s right. That is that is who you are in that [01:16:10] team.

Anni Seaborne: I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Be.

Anni Seaborne: Advocating for the coalface if I’m not actually doing it myself. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Just to say you were going to go to the next rung in the ladder. What’s next? What [01:16:20] what where would you go next? What would be the next move would be?

Anni Seaborne: I don’t know, work my [01:16:25] way up to the board. I don’t know I don’t know what that would look like. I don’t I don’t know what I’m good [01:16:30] at and I don’t know what I don’t know yet. So I’m still early on. I know I’m doing probably [01:16:35] a lot better than a lot of. I think people are surprised when I say I’m the head of general dentistry. Yeah. [01:16:40] Um, at Bupa. But I’ve got a lot to learn [01:16:45] still about how everything works. And I’m learning on the job. Um, I [01:16:50] think I’m lucky that this job is very much just being a voice of the people and that I can do, um, and [01:16:55] I’ve told I’ve. I mean, I’ve been very open about it. It’s like, oh, I’d want to be CEO, [01:17:00] but that’s a ten, 15, 20 year plan. However long I need to take to be good [01:17:05] at it. I don’t just want to tick boxes. Um, and I don’t [01:17:10] know what I don’t know, so I don’t know how to get there. And I’m being open about it now with everyone that I meet because [01:17:15] I’m like, I, if you can tell me something, you can give me a nugget that I can learn and [01:17:20] that’ll get me there bit quicker or that’ll get me there in the right will point me in the right direction. Um, because [01:17:25] I said, I want to be able to make a difference. And I’m lucky. I’ve already got a platform [01:17:30] to do that. And if I could do that on a bigger scale in healthcare, um, that’d [01:17:35] be amazing. And to have that opportunity be incredible. But everything I want to do, I want to be good [01:17:40] at it, and I want to be in that position because I’m good at it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ruled [01:17:45] out, for instance, opening your own practice, things like that?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:17:50] I don’t have the capacity right now. Um, because I am still learning, [01:17:55] and I’m focusing on that. Um, but, no, I get bored [01:18:00] easily. So, um, I know at a point, [01:18:05] if I’m coasting at anything and I don’t plan on coasting because I’m hoping, but if I’m not being stimulated in some [01:18:10] way, I will look to do something else. Um, if I [01:18:15] can do them simultaneously. Because also like alongside obviously helping Shan with tooth Angel, I’m [01:18:20] doing this. I, um, have also got another business [01:18:25] that I’m setting up, which is launching next year, which is a product business which you’ve made me really [01:18:30] nervous about now.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll do that. So we’ll talk later. [01:18:35]

Anni Seaborne: So, um, so yeah, that’s looking at kind of linking [01:18:40] sport and aesthetic and doing like an SPF for athletes. Um, business [01:18:45] that’s launching next year. So I’ve got that in the pipeline as well. Um, doing my [01:18:50] own sports dentistry course, um, which will hopefully be launching soon to kind of make it a bit more accessible for people [01:18:55] who want to.

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Payman Langroudi: There’ll be loads and loads of people who want to do.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Anni Seaborne: I hope so.

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Payman Langroudi: There.

Payman Langroudi: Will be. It’s definitely [01:19:00] interesting.

Anni Seaborne: Um, I want to make it easy because at the moment you’ve only been able to get it through like [01:19:05] the academic UCL pathway, which, by the way, is an incredible, incredible course. And the lecturers are, are [01:19:10] the. Yeah. Um, John and Peter, the lecturers, they’re amazing. Um, but [01:19:15] I wanted kind of a more accessible, why not version of it. Um, [01:19:20] and it’s going to be predominantly online platform. Um, because as you said earlier, [01:19:25] it’s I’m not teaching anything, anyone, anything new. It’s more the thought process [01:19:30] behind it and kind of applying everyday dentistry to athletes. Um, [01:19:35] so yeah, so I’ve got that in the pipeline as well. Um, I’ve [01:19:40] got a lot going on. But the way I think about it is like if I was a high flying lawyer and I’ve got so many law [01:19:45] based friends, they’re doing stupid hours.

Payman Langroudi: So, yeah, I.

Anni Seaborne: Like the hours I do are nothing compared [01:19:50] to what they do. Um, so it’s not that impressive, [01:19:55] really.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very.

Payman Langroudi: Impressive. It’s very impressive. It’s good [01:20:00] to see. It’s good to see your enthusiasm. And long may it continue. You know, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What I hope sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:20:05] know, life can deflates people. And that’s a shame. You know I don’t think that’s going to happen to you. [01:20:10] But it can happen.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, I think.

Anni Seaborne: I’m feeling kind of more positive. I’m feeling [01:20:15] because everything’s going well at the moment and I’m sure I’m going to have absolute dips. I know that, and there’s going [01:20:20] to be times when I’m going to be overwhelmed. But right now, life is. Well, I’m very privileged. I’m very grateful. [01:20:25] Um, so I’ve just got to make the most of it really amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:20:30] to our final question. Really enjoyed it. Um, fantasy dinner party. [01:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or.

Payman Langroudi: Alive? Yes.

Anni Seaborne: Um, [01:20:40] first would be Nelson Mandela. So I was in Mozambique [01:20:45] around the time that apartheid was ending. And it was even though I was young, [01:20:50] it was a big thing. Also, my parents, like my dad’s white, my mum’s, um, Malaysian. [01:20:55] And they were feeling it and I noticed that they felt it. Um, so I’d love to [01:21:00] learn a bit bit more about that and also his resilience and his leadership, and said he [01:21:05] was purpose driven and motive and stuck to his gardens and [01:21:10] just an amazing person. So I’d just love to know a bit more about him. Um, Michelle [01:21:15] Obama.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Anni Seaborne: More to learn how to be a leader without being [01:21:20] the leader. If that makes sense. She’s done such a great job to inspire people [01:21:25] without actually being the main person. So yeah, I just think she’s an [01:21:30] amazing human.

Payman Langroudi: Both both have been invited by a few people.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Are they the go to?

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s cool. [01:21:35] That’s cool.

Anni Seaborne: And then, to be honest, just someone funny. Okay, so maybe like a Ricky Gervais or. [01:21:40]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Anni Seaborne: I enjoyed his afterlife series.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Anni Seaborne: Yeah. So something like that, I don’t [01:21:45] know. No one else. But the other two are kind of the main ones that I think are incredible.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And [01:21:50] finally, is a deathbed question weird for someone so young. But [01:21:55] if it was, if you were on your deathbed surrounded by your loved ones.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:22:00] pieces of advice for them and for everyone. What would they be? [01:22:05]

Anni Seaborne: First one would be I tried to live by. This is. It’s better to be [01:22:10] happy than right. So don’t kind of. And I say this as someone who gets [01:22:15] really emotive and really strong willed, world, but, um, don’t kind of stick [01:22:20] to something of its risks kind of upsetting someone else or just to prove a point. So that [01:22:25] would be my first one. Um, second one is to not worry about what other people are doing [01:22:30] and just stick on your own path because you’re where you’re meant to be. Um, and [01:22:35] that’s that.

Payman Langroudi: That competitive edge, though, doesn’t follow with that [01:22:40] one. Or are you saying, I’ve had trouble with this, so you shouldn’t?

Anni Seaborne: No, I [01:22:45] would say I do. You know what? It’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Competing with yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you mean?

Anni Seaborne: Yes, but [01:22:50] I think a lot of people come to me, and especially recently, have been like, [01:22:55] how have you got there? All of this. And I think there’s an expectation, especially amongst [01:23:00] young dentists, that they have to achieve so much.

Payman Langroudi: Or they have to.

Payman Langroudi: As if the in [01:23:05] time like they falling behind or.

Payman Langroudi: Something.

Anni Seaborne: And actually there’s absolutely nothing wrong. If all you want [01:23:10] to do is be a GDP and have a family and look after that and do [01:23:15] three days a week. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And that is fine. [01:23:20] And to an extent, I wish that that’s what I wanted. Um, and it’s [01:23:25] no shame on you. And it’s not that you’ve done less with your life and you haven’t made anyone proud, because the fact that you’re doing a [01:23:30] dentistry, which is a highly competitive degree in the first place to get into the career, is incredible. [01:23:35] Um, if you don’t want to be a dentist and actually you hate the industry and you want to go teach [01:23:40] yoga, that’s also completely okay. And I think there’s this.

Payman Langroudi: Equally, [01:23:45] you know, if you don’t want kids.

Anni Seaborne: If you don’t want kids.

Payman Langroudi: There should be a lifestyle that should that [01:23:50] should be a thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Cool. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s still a stigma about that. I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [01:23:55]

Anni Seaborne: Oh, 100%. And I’m I’ll be honest, like, I don’t I don’t have a drive for children. [01:24:00] I know my partner does. And it’s something we’ve discussed and it’s something that we’re looking into [01:24:05] egg freezing and all of that. Because right now I’m not I’m being selfish and I’m not [01:24:10] in a position to sacrifice what I’ve built right now. Um, and. [01:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Like, if, you know, we’ve had two whole podcasts on egg freezing with Roni, and now [01:24:20] I’m just going around giving that advice to everyone, everyone, any young lady like [01:24:25] the younger the better. Yeah. With the egg freezing thing. It makes so much sense.

Anni Seaborne: Exactly, [01:24:30] exactly. And I’ve and I. Yeah, I think there’s kind of no shame in it. And it’s normal. If [01:24:35] that’s what that’s what you want to do, then that’s fine. And that’s my pathway. And equally, [01:24:40] I’ve got some friends who are struggling, trying. I’ve got friends who are starting families [01:24:45] and we’re all on our different path and we’re where we’re meant to be. And it’s no one is doing [01:24:50] better than the other person.

Payman Langroudi: Um, does it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, like [01:24:55] the idea of sort of seeking perfection. I see it [01:25:00] a lot with women, like sort of almost juggling everything, like having it all.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:25:05]

Payman Langroudi: Does that weigh on you, like.

Anni Seaborne: Um. For me? No, because I’m [01:25:10] really lucky. I’m doing things I want to be doing. Um.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Payman Langroudi: But discussion [01:25:15] for having it all implies. Yeah, doing everything you’re doing. And children as.

Payman Langroudi: Well, for instance.

Anni Seaborne: So I don’t [01:25:20] I realistically don’t think I could do what I wanted to do and have children. And that’s why I’ve made that decision. [01:25:25] And I’m really lucky that I’ve got a supportive partner who is happy to wait. And we’ve [01:25:30] I’ve basically said to him that until you can pull your weight and he [01:25:35] can’t until he’s a consultant, really, because he’s a slave to the NHS medical field. Um, [01:25:40] until you can pull your weight. I’m not willing to do that because it [01:25:45] would be too much. And I’m really lucky that I live in an era where there is science that may help me. [01:25:50] Um, and I’m also really lucky that I don’t have that internal drive for children, because I think it would [01:25:55] be really difficult if that was also on my mind. I don’t if I’m honest, and it’s really [01:26:00] horrible for women, but I don’t think I’d be doing what I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Doing for.

Payman Langroudi: Different.

Payman Langroudi: People. Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Different for different people. [01:26:05] It means nothing like, uh, Linda Greenwald for children, They’ve done [01:26:10] everything she’s done, you know. That’s her. Yeah. Phenomenal weather. Whether you want to be [01:26:15] that person or you want to be you. Yes. It doesn’t have to be like a thing that anyone [01:26:20] feels sort of guilty about. Yeah, it really shouldn’t.

Anni Seaborne: No it shouldn’t. It [01:26:25] shouldn’t at all. Um, and it also shouldn’t be one or the other. It doesn’t. Just because I’m doing what I am [01:26:30] doesn’t mean I can’t have children as well.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Anni Seaborne: Not. Um, so, yeah, it’s difficult [01:26:35] and there’s pressures, but I think it’s definitely people are talking about it a lot more.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Anni Seaborne: And [01:26:40] are a lot more kind of comfortable and it’s a bit more normal. But. Equally, [01:26:45] it is a shame that I probably have to go down that route in order to kind of keep [01:26:50] my career trajectory. But I also appreciate that’s life, [01:26:55] that’s biology, and there’s nothing really I can do about it. And it’s the sacrifice [01:27:00] I’m having to make. But it really it’s not really a sacrifice. Um, because I do have that [01:27:05] privilege of being able to do have other options. Um, but yeah, as I said, [01:27:10] everyone, everyone is different. And if you have that privilege to be able to do whatever you want to do [01:27:15] and live your life how you want to, I think just don’t listen to the outside noise [01:27:20] if there is any around you.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s my was.

Payman Langroudi: There a final.

Payman Langroudi: Piece of advice?

Anni Seaborne: Final one would be [01:27:25] something I’ve always. My mum used to drill into me was earn your luck and [01:27:30] idea. Behind that is you. Yes. [01:27:35] There’s lots of things, um, to luck and being in the right place, right time, knowing the right people. But you’ve [01:27:40] got to put yourself out there, um, and you’ve got to work hard if you actually want to make it turn [01:27:45] into anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. What does your mum do? Your dad’s in [01:27:50] oil. What’s your mum.

Payman Langroudi: Do?

Anni Seaborne: My mum. So she was a teacher, but she taught English to [01:27:55] Malay students. So obviously when she came to England, it was a bit redundant. [01:28:00] She did a bit of primary school teaching, but.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise she.

Payman Langroudi: Spent much time in Malaysia.

Anni Seaborne: Um, holidays. But [01:28:05] yeah, went went When this April.

Payman Langroudi: Which is lovely.

Anni Seaborne: It’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: They’re amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:28:10] been a massive pleasure. I really, really enjoyed it.

Payman Langroudi: Learned a.

Payman Langroudi: Lot. Learned a lot from you. Just the way you think about [01:28:15] stuff. Amazing. Really amazing. Thank you so much for coming on.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for having me [01:28:20] as well.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:28:25] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:28:30] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:28:35] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:28:40] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:28:45] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:28:50] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:28:55] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:29:00] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhonda Eskander: Today’s [00:00:25] guest is someone who’s moved through reinvention more than once, from a [00:00:30] singer songwriter to reality TV star to a transformational coach and speaker. Julius, [00:00:35] welcome to Mind Movers. The one of the best dental podcasts [00:00:40] in the UK. But what sets Julius apart isn’t his resume. [00:00:45] It’s the depth of reflection and truth he brings to every part of his journey, especially when [00:00:50] it comes to identity, emotional pain and healing. He’s become known for his wonderful content [00:00:55] on male vulnerability, toxic relationship patterns, and the importance of safe spaces, [00:01:00] and for helping others move from chaos to clarity in their own lives. So this conversation [00:01:05] is about the messy human stuff. Self-worth, performance. Heartbreak, [00:01:10] purpose, and the moment he stopped living for the outside world. So welcome, Julius. [00:01:15]

Julius Cowdrey: Thank you. You know, it’d be really nice if I could just wake up to that on repeat.

Rhonda Eskander: I [00:01:20] know, I know, sometimes it’s it’s weird having your, like, bio like, read back to you or like, what people say about [00:01:25] you. But, you know, I was lucky enough because Payman always says, like, how do you know this person? How do you know this person? [00:01:30] And I said I was on his mic. So for those of you haven’t seen it wasn’t like 2 million [00:01:35] views now. And it did well. Yeah, it did really well.

Julius Cowdrey: That was all you I try, I try and make a point of like [00:01:40] keeping it me to the question and then leaving you to to do well but like it’s those conversations [00:01:45] are amazing because they’re so raw. I started I started out going on the mic not for it wasn’t about gaining [00:01:50] more followers, it was about normalising conversation and just getting people to open up. And I went out on the mic into [00:01:55] Covent Garden with my friends. And you don’t mind standing behind the camera. And I stood there and [00:02:00] I asked about. Must have been 300 people. Would you answer a question? Would you answer a question? And [00:02:05] all all of the men just looked at me like I was asking for money. And [00:02:10] then, you know, 75% of women said, no, no, not for me, not for me, who are much nicer in that environment. [00:02:15] To be honest, I think I’d probably rush off and be like, ah, what is this about? And then and then [00:02:20] I got on an amazing Scottish older lady who answered a question on what [00:02:25] she wished she knew sooner. And it was a beautiful answer and it was so well received. I [00:02:30] just had to try and work out how I can sort of create my pitch better and actually get people to come on the mic, and [00:02:35] then I and then I started reaching out to people like you and, and people who have a voice are doing interesting [00:02:40] things. Um, and yeah, it’s.

Rhonda Eskander: I love it. And I want to kind of really delve into [00:02:45] sort of the human emotion that you capture so well on camera. So Payman said to me today, because [00:02:50] we usually start our format with something from the beginning, but he asked me to ask something [00:02:55] that maybe is something that we leave towards the end. What are you struggling with the most at [00:03:00] the moment?

Julius Cowdrey: You’ve got that from my my Instagram videos, haven’t you? That’s one of [00:03:05] my questions.

Rhonda Eskander: I didn’t I didn’t. No no, no.

Julius Cowdrey: Um, okay. I put [00:03:10] a lot of pressure on myself. Um, and I, I put a [00:03:15] very much a positive front, but I put a lot of pressure on myself to be successful. And [00:03:20] so I overwork, and often I fall to that side of [00:03:25] sort of saying no to no to the quote unquote fun stuff and hanging out with people. And [00:03:30] I feel like I might look forward and go, you missed out on the moment because you’re working so hard. But then I read books. [00:03:35] I read a lot of autobiographies of Steve Jobs and people like that, and they were just obsessive workers. [00:03:40] And their success is what, you know, came from it. There was a by-product of their hard work. So [00:03:45] then I sort of I think I tangled with that and um, and therefore and I think I put a lot [00:03:50] of pressure on my co-founder, co-founder and my brother as well on that. You know, we need to be working harder. We’re not doing enough. [00:03:55] So. So that’s I think that’s a bit of pressure that I put on. And therefore cortisol rises. I probably don’t [00:04:00] sleep as well. I’m you know, I’m trying to think of what I can do at 9:00 pm at night. So switching off is hard. Um, [00:04:05] for me. So that’s probably what I’m struggling with.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think that is?

Julius Cowdrey: I think I just have a really [00:04:10] high bar. And it’s interesting because I talk to clients about this a lot and taking the [00:04:15] pressure off and leaving expectation at the door and making it and living in your purpose [00:04:20] and your drive, and actually that will drive you through. But I think, yeah, I think [00:04:25] I want a lot for myself. I want to provide um, I want to, to, [00:04:30] you know, attract an amazing woman. And I think she deserves that. If I’m deserves a provider [00:04:35] and someone and even though I want to meet level with my with my partner. Of course. But but yeah, [00:04:40] it’s it’s it’s interesting. I’ve seen I’ve seen a lot of success. I’ve seen my, my dad do amazing things. So I [00:04:45] think maybe that was my picture of, of success when I was growing up. Um, but [00:04:50] yeah, I also think with social media it’s very easy and this is such an obvious topic. [00:04:55] But success is so over. Glamorised and how running a Start-Up is so over Glamorised and [00:05:00] and you look at the you look at the 25 year old who’s made 100 million from selling his Start-Up or her Start-Up, [00:05:05] and and you hear about, you know, I went to an event the other day and I’m we’re trying to raise under a million for [00:05:10] our our Pre-seed Start-Up at the moment. And I met this woman who’s raised, just raised 600 [00:05:15] million pre-seed and she’s 26. And and so [00:05:20] that makes you sort of naturally because we’re we’re human, you know, because we’re human, we naturally compare. And [00:05:25] so then I’m naturally comparing, um, to that. And so I think taking [00:05:30] for me, the, the step is taking is taking a step back and actually realising [00:05:35] that I’m on the path, I’m doing the best I can and not putting pressure on myself. Interestingly, [00:05:40] the average path of an entrepreneur setting up a business and selling is 42 years old, sets [00:05:45] it up, sells at 57, not, sets it up at 20 and sells it at 26. [00:05:50] It’s just you only hear about those stories.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you?

Julius Cowdrey: I’m 32.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. [00:05:55] So there’s actually a lot of things to unpack in what you have just said that I want to go into. First of all, I think [00:06:00] what’s important is, is what you said about the pressure you’ve put on yourself to [00:06:05] provide. And I think that that’s quite difficult for a lot of men. I mean, I don’t know if it was the same [00:06:10] also when you were Julius’s age, but I think that ultimately [00:06:15] that’s also why women struggle to find men that they want to be in relationships [00:06:20] with. And I think it’s I don’t know if it’s necessarily a helpful narrative, because I think to some degree [00:06:25] we’re all work in progress as constantly, and the thought that we should all have [00:06:30] our shit together by the time that we’re 30 and every aspect of our life, and I’m talking about career [00:06:35] health, knowing what you want. And I have seen some of my friends, I’m lucky to be exposed [00:06:40] to a lot of influencers and so forth and celebrities and whatever that they feel that they’ve achieved [00:06:45] it all by 30 and then feel, okay. Now I need to settle down and find the perfect partner. If [00:06:50] you’re trying to meet that partner that ticks every box on every [00:06:55] level, that’s a huge amount of weight and a lot of pressure that you’re putting on yourself. [00:07:00] And I wonder today as well, because I know you’re a massive advocate of male mental health, [00:07:05] that the reason why a lot of men do not want to get into relationships, maybe because [00:07:10] of avoidant tendencies as they’re often accused of, but also because on some level they feel that they can’t [00:07:15] match the level that women want. You know, to provide for an entire family [00:07:20] is a lot. It’s not just providing for yourself. Can I go on interject?

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:07:25] no. But you know, you know, there’s that famous book or article that the [00:07:30] nurse wrote from the nursing homes, the palliative care centres. Everyone was [00:07:35] going to die.

Rhonda Eskander: Regrets?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Deathbed regrets.

Payman Langroudi: Right. And and then it was [00:07:40] like the top five regrets that people had at the end of their lives. And there’s all the obvious kind of things [00:07:45] about too much time at work, losing friendships and family members. And the number [00:07:50] one one was about living for other people’s expectations or something. But the one I found [00:07:55] the most interesting about that one was it was like, I wish I’d allowed myself to be [00:08:00] more happy. It’s one of the top five regrets people [00:08:05] have on their deathbed. Yeah. And when I look back at my life, we’ve all had highs and lows and [00:08:10] all that, which I allowed myself to be more happy, man. Like contentment. Yeah. Yeah. Is [00:08:15] underrated. And somehow in tension with this. Work my ass off at 930 [00:08:20] at night to to get ahead.

Rhonda Eskander: To provide, to provide.

Payman Langroudi: But I do get it with your [00:08:25] granddad as captain of England. Right. That that that’s not normal behaviour. [00:08:30] That’s obsessive behaviour that makes you captain of England and cricket. Yeah. Maybe you saw [00:08:35] that. Maybe. Well.

Julius Cowdrey: I mean his so his grandfather. So my great great grandfather. [00:08:40] My great grandfather. So his father um called him Mick [00:08:45] Michael Colin Cowdrey because the home of cricket is Marylebone Cricket club. In [00:08:50] fact, he would make him bat with a with a railing by behind his back so [00:08:55] that he would only hit particular shots. I mean, there was an obsession from him. Um, my dad saw his [00:09:00] father for four Christmases growing up because he was playing cricket, and they were on boats [00:09:05] to Australia, not on planes back then. And and so I think my dad made a conscious decision [00:09:10] to be more present because that would never that had been a generational thing, not to be present. Um, [00:09:15] and yes, I’ve seen success. It’s it’s interesting when I, when I did the, the show, um, [00:09:20] when I did Maiden Chelsea, people always go, oh, it’s, you know, it’s quite a cool thing you’re [00:09:25] doing. And I never, I never really thought highly of it. And I think maybe it’s because I’ve seen crazy success. [00:09:30] My grandpa would he he would dine with the Queen once a month. I mean, he was friends with Nelson Mandela. He. The reason he [00:09:35] became a lord was because he helped bring South Africa back into sport from apartheid. He died [00:09:40] when I was 2000, I in 2000. I wish I could have known him. I was seven years old. Um, so I think [00:09:45] maybe it’s a reflection of what I’ve seen for sure. I mean, you can look on the other side. I’ve seen such healthy love [00:09:50] from my mom. And so I joked to my mom, I’d be like, you’ve definitely fucked me up, because I definitely assume that every [00:09:55] woman is is emotionally able and loving and sweet and kind and always, and calls me Angel.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:00] I’m Swedish.

Julius Cowdrey: My mom’s my mom’s Swedish, and she is possibly the most loving and kind woman on the [00:10:05] planet. I mean, what I’ve seen, um, and, um, I just, as a result, walk [00:10:10] into life with the assumption that every woman is, is capable of of honest, raw and [00:10:15] vulnerable love. And it’s and it wasn’t the case. And so my.

Rhonda Eskander: Dad did to me, ruined me, thought men were amazing. And I was [00:10:20] like, Jesus, gotten to where I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Seen that hot, crazy access that.

Julius Cowdrey: No, I haven’t.

[TRANSITION]: Seen, you know, you [00:10:25] know it.

Rhonda Eskander: Like the hotter a girl is, the crazier she is.

[TRANSITION]: And you know, she might be a dude if she’s that [00:10:30] hot, you know, like that.

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I joked that, um, I go, I mean, I’ve [00:10:35] someone said the other day, you know, I actually met up with some old friends from school and they’re all [00:10:40] getting married apart from one, um, and, uh, three of them are them getting married this year. Others are getting married [00:10:45] next year. And there was me and this guy called Toby, who I’d known since I was 13. I went to school with him and I [00:10:50] said, I said, you’re doing any damage? And he went, no. He said, you know, and and my, [00:10:55] my experience of dating is I, I, you know, obviously wanting to get out there and [00:11:00] wanting to go on dates and I actually end up being very, um, take it or leave it. And this is, this is not me trying to be [00:11:05] judgy, but because this is definitely not mentioning all women, but I’ve on the dates that I’ve been to [00:11:10] where I’m with going on dates with beautiful women. Well, I think they are, um, I’m [00:11:15] actually off quite often, not matching humour. So I’m like, oh God, I’m a bit bored sitting here and [00:11:20] and a girl mate of mine said this. It’s because beautiful women haven’t had to try hard. [00:11:25]

[TRANSITION]: And that’s the same with.

Rhonda Eskander: Men, though.

Julius Cowdrey: I’m sure it is. I mean.

Rhonda Eskander: Listen, no, no, [00:11:30] no. Okay, I’ll let Julius finish.

Payman Langroudi: Men learn to be charming, man, because.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, I’m.

Rhonda Eskander: Gonna I’m gonna give you [00:11:35] real life examples, but go on.

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I can go.

[TRANSITION]: I can go on.

Julius Cowdrey: Because it’s [00:11:40] important I navigate through this because definitely not all women but I but I am I’ve found that [00:11:45] and I mean I was a little chubby kid, so I probably had to to create a person still.

[TRANSITION]: A chubby kid. [00:11:50]

Julius Cowdrey: No, you’re not, you’re not. Um, but, uh, I don’t know. I [00:11:55] mean, like, it’s interesting. It’s like how even if you’ve been fully loved growing up, I’m [00:12:00] sure there’s, um, there’s aspects of of of, you know, fucking you up. [00:12:05] And I think that’s probably a poor term. When I said that to my mom, she was like, I didn’t fuck anything up and all this.

[TRANSITION]: But yeah, I.

Rhonda Eskander: Totally [00:12:10] get it. Like, there’s actually a few things that I think resonate. Like people don’t talk enough about generational trauma and [00:12:15] how the impact of our ancestors, grandparents really affect us. I mean, Payman [00:12:20] has heard this a million times. So my my grandmother was Miss World, and [00:12:25] so as a result, she was actually quite narcissistic, um, because [00:12:30] everything was about the way she looked. People worshipped her. So she was Miss Lebanon. Everyone knew who she was. She was [00:12:35] a socialite. She wasn’t an emotionally available mother. So my my mother suffered [00:12:40] from kind of narcissistic abuse, and she she didn’t want my mother to flourish. But my mom [00:12:45] went on to go and be a model anyway because whatever, she had the DNA and [00:12:50] my mother, I think she didn’t have the tools available to her to ensure [00:12:55] that she didn’t project some of the things onto me and my sister, but I always say our parents do [00:13:00] the best they can with the tools that they have, and I think it’s important that we don’t blame them. But [00:13:05] it’s interesting because although my mom showers with me with love, I feel like it’s conditional [00:13:10] love in some instances. And what I mean by that is there’s this sort of like when I achieve [00:13:15] a lot, or there’s always a comment about the way I look, you know, make sure you do your hair [00:13:20] always look really well to do or whatever it is. And I’ve really seen that sort of infiltrate down. [00:13:25] So do you think, I mean, with your grandfather, you said that your father barely [00:13:30] saw him. Did your father also emulate that with you? And do you think that impacted you because you talk a lot about [00:13:35] the healthy dynamic and connection with your mum? But what about with your dad?

Julius Cowdrey: My dad was [00:13:40] very present, and he made a thing of it. Of being present. So he was at every game. Every. And [00:13:45] he. And he was an amazing dad. He was not a great husband. Um, and had multiple affairs and [00:13:50] that that’s that was super testing because you. I grew up seeing this when my [00:13:55] dad was my hero. You know, my mom was the the the loving, kind [00:14:00] person I could speak to and cry to if I needed to. And my, my dad was my hero. The games guy, the fun guy.

[TRANSITION]: The [00:14:05] stoic.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah, sure. And and, um, and so when that [00:14:10] came crashing down and I it’s interesting when, if that is the case, I’ve spoken to a lot of people [00:14:15] about this because I’m, I’m, I’m open to talking about it because I’m, I don’t want to think it’s just me. And my brother [00:14:20] says the same thing, but I thought he was my absolute hero. Could do no wrong. Um, I thought the same about [00:14:25] my mom, actually, which is actually, I feel very fortunate to have thought that. But actually, we’re [00:14:30] so flawed and parents don’t know what they’re doing at the start. I mean, I wouldn’t know when I have my when I have kids [00:14:35] and what I’ll be doing. I mean, there’s no course in that. I mean, there’s no there’s no there’s no course [00:14:40] in mental health. There’s no course in trying to navigate your thoughts or trying to work out what the hell the [00:14:45] inner critic is doing when when you’re tested with pressure. So so I think yeah, [00:14:50] I’m, I’m, I definitely have empathy for, for my [00:14:55] parents and I definitely, um, it took a while to realise that they are flawed human beings. [00:15:00] Um, but, uh, and I think that just comes with compassion. And I think that’s [00:15:05] one of the things, even if you’re told a million times, it’s something you have to learn with wisdom.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%, [00:15:10] I think.

Rhonda Eskander: And as I said to you, I think we all idolise our parents. We all put their children. You just do. I’m sure your parents [00:15:15] look, I’m sure your kids even look at you guys, like, you know everything. I think that’s a natural thing. I want to go back [00:15:20] a little bit to this sort of beauty versus effort thing. Okay, so I actually have [00:15:25] a friend of mine. I’m not going to go into too much detail, and he is one of the most beautiful [00:15:30] men you’ve ever seen in the entire world. As in, he walks in a room and everybody is just like [00:15:35] staring him. But however, he actually struggles to build connections and some of [00:15:40] my friends that were like, yeah, he’s beautiful. And then you start talking to him and he doesn’t really have much to say for himself. So it is true, [00:15:45] and I think that he’s never really had to make an effort. So you say, oh, they develop charm. I’m [00:15:50] like, I disagree. I think it works both ways.

Payman Langroudi: The point 1% of course.

Rhonda Eskander: But yeah, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What women [00:15:55] with women it could be, you know, the 20% or whatever.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. But I think that also but [00:16:00] again, it really depends on what you desire in life and what your values are, because I also have [00:16:05] a couple of male friends that really do say to me, I want a girlfriend. That is a plus. [00:16:10] One is super young and super hot and they are happy with that.

Payman Langroudi: What they say to.

Rhonda Eskander: You, that is [00:16:15] what they say to me openly, right?

Julius Cowdrey: But I think that’s an unresolved man.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. [00:16:20] But I’m saying cool like that is what they want and I’m not here to sort of judge it. I do also think, unfortunately [00:16:25] online there are extremely crude projections of what society [00:16:30] really wants. I had a little bit of a dispute with one of my friends two weeks ago because I don’t [00:16:35] know some YouTube guy. You might have even seen this. I didn’t know who it was. Created a graph for the desirability, [00:16:40] um, attractiveness and safety of a man, for example. [00:16:45] So the more the less attractive they are and the more safe they are, [00:16:50] the less you’re likely to want to go for them. Whereas, you know, if they’re on the really attractive scale but really [00:16:55] unsafe, you know, they’re under the fuckboy scale and you might find them attractive. It was just a really crude way [00:17:00] of representation. And then with women, it’s like the older they are, the less attractive they are [00:17:05] the body count. Do you know what I mean? I just feel like these things that people still project on social [00:17:10] media, huh? Clickbait. It is clickbait, but people believe it. People do [00:17:15] believe it. You think that everybody is educated. People will look at that stuff and go, this is how I [00:17:20] should be valuing.

Payman Langroudi: And the thing is, there’s a degree of truth in all generalisations, [00:17:25] right? So when you say people believe it to that extent, but people are you know, [00:17:30] people are much more I mean, watching your mix here. Sometimes you’re asking the same question or, [00:17:35] you know, similar relationship questions here, but you can’t help but keep watching [00:17:40] because in the end, we’re a species of like people who cooperate with each other [00:17:45] and interact with each other. We’re so interested in the relationship bit. You know, [00:17:50] the mic piece is how long has that been going on?

Julius Cowdrey: Just over a year, actually. Maybe [00:17:55] a year anniversary. Yeah, about a year. Um, [00:18:00] and I guess there are only so many questions you can ask to people you don’t know. And then I like asking questions [00:18:05] based on what that person, uh, does. So I think we spoke [00:18:10] about something around Dental star, but also I wanted to ask you a more a more personal question, I think. I [00:18:15] definitely I don’t share the questions which people are a bit like.

Payman Langroudi: Ahead of time.

Julius Cowdrey: I didn’t tell you the question, did [00:18:20] I? I asked you the question the moment because actually I’ve tried that and people end up trying to [00:18:25] rehearse this thing. They said in their head that it’s always better when it’s off the cuff and real and raw, and all I have to do is create a [00:18:30] safe space for them to feel comfortable with me. And if I haven’t, then that’s that’s. They probably [00:18:35] won’t allow themselves to be vulnerable enough. Um, but it’s been really cool. I mean, I asked a question to an amazing, [00:18:40] amazing woman yesterday. She’s a doctor, and I asked, you know, have you ever [00:18:45] received, um, online abuse? I actually didn’t know if that was going to cause [00:18:50] anything. I’ve received a lot of online abuse, death threats and all this stuff, so I just, I just said, have you ever received [00:18:55] it? And she and she went really open raw, and I didn’t know it was going to go there. So you never know where a question is going to [00:19:00] go. But I actually I’ve it’s been really well received and it’s really nice because it’s um, the [00:19:05] reason why I went there is because as a coach. So I’m working with clients, I was doing content, trying to be [00:19:10] like, how do I put content on? I want to build my personal brand. It’ll probably get me more clients, be good for my business. I’ll [00:19:15] get jobs from it. So I’ve got to continue building it, you know, and also redefine myself after a career [00:19:20] that was very misaligned and or just different to what I’m doing now.

Julius Cowdrey: Um, and I’ve started [00:19:25] putting content up like this. Um. Hey, guys, uh, here are three [00:19:30] ways to optimise your life. And or here are three ways to improve your morning routine. [00:19:35] All this stuff and it didn’t get it didn’t do very well. And then I saw someone’s [00:19:40] content that was near identical to that. I saw some bloke go, here [00:19:45] are three ways to improve your Night-Time routine and have a Lumi light and and do this and have a cold shower and leave the [00:19:50] window open and turn off the lights and all this. And in my head I was judging it and going, [00:19:55] fuck off. You don’t. You don’t know me. Why am I why would I listen to you? I was doing that in my head. [00:20:00] I was like, oh my God, that’s me. I’m doing that content. I’m doing the content because we don’t actually [00:20:05] put content. Well, I don’t for the people who know me, because 80% of the content that is consumed, [00:20:10] especially on my channel, is, is people. I don’t know if it’s a post with someone or post [00:20:15] without someone. Your content is mostly seen on the home page and by randoms. So I want them to [00:20:20] to connect. So how do I do that? Okay, I’ll go on to the streets and ask people questions. I won’t make it about me and [00:20:25] I can make it about just opening up conversation.

Rhonda Eskander: What I think the reason why I think the content [00:20:30] resonates so well, which is also what I recognise from my own platform, is there’s so much authenticity and [00:20:35] vulnerability. And I always say vulnerability is a superpower, which people really underestimate, [00:20:40] especially in our profession, because we’re taught that we have to be strong and that we’re healers in society. [00:20:45] So vulnerability is definitely seen as weakness in the Dental arena. And thank [00:20:50] God for mind movers because people have, you know, been suffering with addiction and so forth and said to Payman, [00:20:55] I want to come and talk about my story of how, you know, I had to go to the Priory in the middle of a working day because I [00:21:00] couldn’t take it anymore. And I think the conversations that you have are about that vulnerability. And I think [00:21:05] human connection is about vulnerability. It’s not about that polished, perfect image that people [00:21:10] are so worried about projecting. However, having said that, [00:21:15] why did you choose to go on Made in Chelsea?

Julius Cowdrey: I went to Chelsea because I was [00:21:20] a singer songwriter. Dauphin knew this, but I was releasing music and every show I [00:21:25] did, every gig I did, the only people who had come to it were my best mate, [00:21:30] my mum and my brother, if I could force him to. Um, [00:21:35] so the old man and his dog. Right? So I was going to these gigs. My first ever show was in South Woodford. I [00:21:40] was singing about love and my piano. I mean, we cringe looking back, but it was it was an era at [00:21:45] a time, um, and no one was coming. And I had I had on the same [00:21:50] in the same year. I had the option to go on Made in Chelsea or X factor, and I had a friend who [00:21:55] went on X factor and did really well, but said, please don’t go on it. They own you. They will. [00:22:00] They sign you up from even before you get onto the live shows. And it’s really, really damaging and [00:22:05] it’s not good. I spoke to another friend who’d been on it, said the same thing, and then I had the opportunity to be seen by [00:22:10] a million people every Monday. And, you know, it’s it doesn’t really matter if I do. Well [00:22:15] on the show was like this going on an X factor thing, I’d have to do well. And [00:22:20] what if I fail and all this? But that was just like, I just have to be myself and and just see what happens.

Julius Cowdrey: So my [00:22:25] and I had a manager at the time who said, you know, Julius will only come on the show if he sings on the first [00:22:30] episode. So I sang on the first episode to the to the at a at a party, and [00:22:35] my song went to number one on the singer songwriter singer songwriter charts. It’s called Seven Roads. Did [00:22:40] really well, actually. I was I did a gig a few years ago in Los Angeles, [00:22:45] and I got introduced as Julius Cowdrey, and they’re [00:22:50] very over the top, you know, TV personality. Um, welcome to the show. He beat [00:22:55] Ed Sheeran to number one. To be fair, he wasn’t British, he’s American. But I’m not gonna do the American [00:23:00] accent because I absolutely demoralised damage it. Um, welcome viewers to the stage. So [00:23:05] I got on stage and I had I had to quickly be like, okay, I beat Ed Sheeran that day to [00:23:10] number one. But the song that was in the singer songwriter Ed Sheeran released three years prior, and [00:23:15] it was like Tom Odell and Gabrielle Aplin. But I had basically it went to number one, the singer songwriter charts, which was quite fun. And then it [00:23:20] kind of became this opportunity and actually I started to It’s weird. I, I started [00:23:25] to really enjoy the show more because I felt more validated by what it gave me so I could see real [00:23:30] time validation of following.

Julius Cowdrey: Looking back on sort of my unevolved brain, back then, I [00:23:35] had a need for, uh, being validated from [00:23:40] others because I was really badly bullied when I was younger. So for me, it was like I just wanted to be liked. I [00:23:45] became a club promoter when I came to London first. So just because people needed me. Right. I can help you with everything you know. Be my friend. [00:23:50] Even if it was an acquaintance, they didn’t even like me. They needed me. So I had this. Like I just wanted to have [00:23:55] friends. And I go on the show and suddenly I have a following. Oh my God, it was like it was perfect for my ego at the time. It was not [00:24:00] healthy, but definitely what I thought I wanted or needed. Um, and then [00:24:05] I’m doing the show and then I release a song and suddenly the song does well. And then I get all these followers and I’m getting [00:24:10] paid by it as well. So I’m getting paid to just turn up and be myself. That’s weird. And actually, [00:24:15] yeah, I’ll stir the pot and do all the things the show want me to do, and it’s super unhealthy. And but at the time it was [00:24:20] filling this cup that, uh, that I had to really work. I didn’t realise [00:24:25] at the time was unhealthy.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never watched it and I got.

Rhonda Eskander: Asked to.

Payman Langroudi: Be on it. The way you asked the question, [00:24:30] it sounds like like.

Rhonda Eskander: So.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a story.

Rhonda Eskander: People actually don’t know this, [00:24:35] but I think it’s one of the biggest regrets that I have, like of my life is not going on it. So I’m [00:24:40] going to just.

Julius Cowdrey: Still.

Rhonda Eskander: Going. Yeah, a bit old for that now, babe. I [00:24:45] got put forward. So I briefly dated someone that was part of the original roster, [00:24:50] um, when I was at Leeds. Um, and he was a different university and he had put me forward. [00:24:55] So it was the original cast, you know, Millie, Hugo, etc.. Um, and I remember at the [00:25:00] time, so I was at my first sort of NHS job, it was like a year after I qualified, and I just kept [00:25:05] thinking, oh, but what are people going to think of me? Because also at that time, social media hadn’t [00:25:10] really boomed and I was so afraid of what the Dental world would think of me, and I was so afraid [00:25:15] of not being taken seriously as a professional. And I was worried about my regulatory [00:25:20] body. I was worried about what it would mean for my career, my job prospects [00:25:25] and things like that. So all of this sort of fear held me back. And then I look now. [00:25:30]

Payman Langroudi: At.

Rhonda Eskander: It now, huh? Yeah. And I do regret it now. But I think that, like, I really kind of Julia [00:25:35] speaks to my heart because I do believe and it’s a bit of a controversial opinion, that [00:25:40] most people online or people that do put themselves out there, regardless of whether you’re [00:25:45] coming from a good place or not, do you still want validation in some sense [00:25:50] or form? Right? Because I know people in my friendship group, even my sister, for example, [00:25:55] who are super talented and super successful without being online. So we may justify it and say, [00:26:00] oh, you have to be online these days to make a business work and whatever. You don’t have to. I think that there [00:26:05] is an element of a certain type of person. I’m neurodivergent. I’m open [00:26:10] about that, that like needs that. And I think as a creative it is a good outlet to kind of get [00:26:15] that creative sort of output and get people to give you feedback, as it were. [00:26:20] But when I look back at the people that were on Made in Chelsea, I think to myself, my [00:26:25] gosh, they built something. Most of them, not all of them, are so great with their [00:26:30] careers, and that did give them the platform. And although I built something that I’m proud of, I [00:26:35] can’t help but think, could I have been more successful? That’s what I think.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the [00:26:40] when I was a dentist, one of the reasons I started this company was [00:26:45] because as a young man, as a young dentist, I thought, even [00:26:50] if I’m the best dentist in this whole town or in this hole, wherever it is, [00:26:55] my impact was only going to be like five mile radius of this practice, you [00:27:00] know, and, and, and then childishly thought, oh, if I’ll start a company, then my [00:27:05] impact could be all over the world or whatever. It was a childish impulse. Right now you [00:27:10] can, as a dentist, impact the whole world with social. Yeah. And that’s [00:27:15] an important release. Like if that’s who you are. If that’s the person you’re creative, [00:27:20] you know, like, you know what? In another world here, without a doctor, dad [00:27:25] and a middle eastern mum, you know, you might have been a, you know, like artist, you [00:27:30] might have been an actress or whatever it is.

Rhonda Eskander: I mean, look, I was amazing at English literature. [00:27:35] I was meant to go to Oxford. I told you, you know, my teachers all said she has to go to Oxbridge, study PPE, study English [00:27:40] or drama or whatever. My dad, being a middle eastern dad, was like, what’s she going to do with that? And listen, I’m [00:27:45] grateful to an extent, right? Because I’ve got a career now that’s going to take me through life. [00:27:50] And I do have the ability to express my entrepreneurship in different ways. As you know, I’ve [00:27:55] got a Start-Up as well, which we’ll go into later, kind of the Start-Up world, but I think it is interesting. [00:28:00] I think reality TV is something that I look at now and I’m like, [00:28:05] God, did I really miss out? And I don’t know if that’s also because society idolises TV [00:28:10] personalities. And I look at people and sometimes I think, gosh, if I was her, would I get all this validation? [00:28:15] Would I be told that I’m good enough? Would I be told I’m pretty enough? Would I be told all these things that I see them get? [00:28:20] Maybe you can tell me the reality, because I want to know a little bit about the dark side.

Julius Cowdrey: Okay. Before before I [00:28:25] tell you about the dark side. And there is a dark side. What what what is your conclusion of that? Are [00:28:30] you sat there thinking, lying in bed thinking, what if? And you will you for the rest of your life or or because the what if goes [00:28:35] both ways. The what if goes well? Oh, I could have been more successful. I could have had more eyes on me. [00:28:40] But the what if could have gone the other way. It might have been the dark side. Super challenging, [00:28:45] very damaging for your mental health. It might have actually probably at the start, especially [00:28:50] people not respected you because it was very much rich kids at the start. It’s not so much now. So [00:28:55] do you look at it as a regret, or do you look at it as something that maybe is a blessing? [00:29:00]

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, you know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You just brought out something on channel four, right? It’s not like you’re not [00:29:05] doing that.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. I mean, but it’s a completely different thing. It’s a it’s a program. Do you know John Lancaster? He. [00:29:10] Yeah. Do you know him. He’s he’s he’s basically the TV presenter that was [00:29:15] born with a disease called Treacher Collins syndrome. So he his face is very [00:29:20] distinct. He’s done a lot with like lad Bible and so forth, and he talks about how his facial characteristics, [00:29:25] he learned to love them because his parents didn’t know that he was going to be born like that and abandoned him at [00:29:30] the hospital, put him up for adoption. And the adoption papers said they were horrified by his face. That’s literally [00:29:35] what it says. And now he’s an advocate for mental health. So as part of this amazing documentary [00:29:40] for channel four, where essentially people that have had really unfortunate things [00:29:45] happen to them, like there was a guy on there that his uncle was a schizophrenic, so threw petrol [00:29:50] and lit him alight. And he has all this scarring and so forth. So we were part of helping people [00:29:55] with the aesthetic side of things, and Jonno kind of helped them with the mental health side. So like, do [00:30:00] you want to change your face because maybe this is part of your story. But anyway, it’s it’s an amazing [00:30:05] documentary and I’m so proud to be part of that. And I’m so proud [00:30:10] to know that I can have that impact on people. But what makes me sad is that people [00:30:15] still put more importance and praise the superficial world, if that makes sense, [00:30:20] because the recognition I get from that is not the same recognition someone from Love Island gets, or [00:30:25] that’s how it feels, and that’s the honest truth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’ll never be enough then, you know? That’s the thing. [00:30:30] It’s a let’s go to the dark side.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s different. A different kind of recognition. Right? Um, [00:30:35] do you want the short term or the long term? Right. Do you want the one that’s respected or not? Do you want [00:30:40] the one that helps people or doesn’t? Yeah. Um, I think I think what’s acutely [00:30:45] obvious is that what you’re doing is impacting people. I’ve seen your social. I’ve seen what [00:30:50] you’re doing here. I’ve seen what you do by helping people with your practice. And clearly what you’re doing on the show [00:30:55] is it’s, uh, these are amazing things that you should be proud of. [00:31:00] Um, I always think what ifs are just so pointless. Yeah. Um, you know, people [00:31:05] ask me a lot. Are you. Do you regret doing the show? And I what? I’m going to go. Well, what if [00:31:10] I didn’t do it? Maybe people would have respected the fact that I. I had a music career because maybe, you know, it [00:31:15] tarnished me with this posh boy. Look, when maybe you didn’t. It didn’t really work that way. James Blunt got [00:31:20] turned down by 20 labels because he had a posh accent, and they asked him to change his accent. Then he had the most successful [00:31:25] album pretty much of all time until maybe Adele came around. Um, not a good time to maybe be posh [00:31:30] and an artist. Um, so I could look back. And what if I’ve definitely thought, what if of all these things, [00:31:35] did it impact me well, or did it? Did it not? I actually don’t think doing the show [00:31:40] is determines whether I will be successful or not, but I definitely think it gave me, um, a [00:31:45] I had to do a lot of growing up. Basically I was, I was.

Rhonda Eskander: During [00:31:50] or after.

Julius Cowdrey: Or just during and, and a little bit after as well. But like, I [00:31:55] didn’t really know about coaching and therapy was it was sort of everyone’s you got a therapist [00:32:00] is a bit of a red flag. What’s wrong with you that this country is still a bit like that?

Rhonda Eskander: Um, so how old were you when you [00:32:05] started therapy?

Julius Cowdrey: I’ve never had a therapist. I’ve had a coach. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but [00:32:10] I but I didn’t really realise there are other reasons for that. I didn’t really realise, I think I [00:32:15] needed it, and because it really wasn’t an outlook, it wasn’t something someone spoke. You spoke about my [00:32:20] my dad’s pretty stiff upper lip, doesn’t really talk about his emotions. And then I went to an all boys school where if [00:32:25] you talk about your emotions, you’re pathetic or weak or boarding school. Yeah. And so I [00:32:30] just. And I had to be very strong for my brother. My brother was going through some mental challenges. So I [00:32:35] was just like, I’m the one who’s okay, I’m fine. But really, I was covering up a.

Payman Langroudi: Would you put your kids in boarding school? [00:32:40]

Julius Cowdrey: Uh, probably not. No, I probably, I don’t know. We can talk about the schooling schooling system. [00:32:45] It didn’t suit me. I felt like a fish. There’s an amazing picture of Einstein [00:32:50] and Einstein quote, which is ask a fish to climb a tree and it’ll think it’s a stupid think [00:32:55] it’s an idiot for the rest of his life. I’ve definitely ruined that quote, but I went to [00:33:00] a very educational school when I was so creative. Um, and my skills were elsewhere. I mean, you [00:33:05] know, I emotionally, I have. I feel like I have a level of intelligence that maybe [00:33:10] most men don’t. I, I like to be with people. I like to surround myself with people. I like that aspect. [00:33:15] And I didn’t like the mathematical, uh, the test, the memory stuff. I, [00:33:20] I and and my brother would say the same thing. He was super sporty. Amazing with people. And [00:33:25] then he’s at this, this school. And that is really a business trying to get the highest grades so [00:33:30] that they can charge the most. And that’s what it was. And um, and so that was yeah, I felt very [00:33:35] different then. But to the mid and Chelsea dark side because [00:33:40] I don’t want to miss that. Um, I’d say about 90% [00:33:45] of people on that show that I’ve been through that experience with. And bear in mind, I’ve travelled [00:33:50] with them. I see them all the time. We have event days every single episode. Um, are [00:33:55] struggling. I’m struggling. I’m struggling with with generalised [00:34:00] anxiety disorder or something, or depression or this extreme almost [00:34:05] gets to obsession of I need to be validated at all times and my likes aren’t good enough [00:34:10] and and I don’t.

Julius Cowdrey: I look ugly and do I not look? And it’s because you’re, you know, you’re on camera [00:34:15] every single week and it’s coming out and it’s edited in a certain way that actually isn’t new, let’s be honest. Like it’s [00:34:20] that’s the that’s the really testing part. And I find I found really challenging is the it’s a [00:34:25] show just like school is a business. The show is an entertainment thing. It’s not everyone’s perfect [00:34:30] raw lives. And they they follow you around everywhere. We haven’t got a camera here watching us do this podcast. No, [00:34:35] it’s turn up here. We’re going to talk about this scenario. And if you don’t get involved then you won’t be filmed. So what do you [00:34:40] want to talk about? This stupid gossipy thing that you don’t actually give a fuck about. And then you talk about it and you [00:34:45] have to take it elsewhere because the whole thing is about gossip, and then you’re you’re sort of this dagger [00:34:50] through social media goes, well, why are you getting involved? You’re you’re this, you’re this, you’re this. And then if you don’t chat [00:34:55] to that girl and flirt with that girl, then you know, they’re not interested in filming with you. So it’s insanely [00:35:00] damaging and unhealthy. And there’s a reason why, if we talk about poor mental health in dentistry, poor [00:35:05] mental health in TV, and there’s enough people who have taken their lives for it to be for it to be a staggering issue. [00:35:10]

Julius Cowdrey: And yes, they’re doing better. And the and the programs, you know, you’ve got psychs on board [00:35:15] and things like that. But yeah, it gave me a lot of anxiety I had. When I get [00:35:20] anxiety, I have this sort of feeling like someone’s staring at me from behind me, like this feeling under my back. It’s really strange. [00:35:25] I don’t know if anyone else feels like that, and I would have that all the time, [00:35:30] and I’d have that going to bed. And and as a result, I was probably drinking more and, and and [00:35:35] so I had to do this sort of I had to grow through this. I left the show because it made me really unhappy. And [00:35:40] I had a girlfriend. I didn’t want to take that to the show. And then I went back to it and I was I felt like I’d [00:35:45] just gone all the way back and lost all the growth I had in between, because I was living in this [00:35:50] same fake reality of having to turn up every day and stir [00:35:55] a pot, and it’s incredibly challenging. And so I wish and the reason why I love coaching [00:36:00] is I love helping people through these things is I had to do it alone for five, six, eight, ten years. I [00:36:05] had to go from the the the boy who was bullied to try and work out why people would ever [00:36:10] like me to, then to then understand parental dynamics and all these different things [00:36:15] on my on my own.

Rhonda Eskander: You know what the thing is?

Julius Cowdrey: There’s not a sob story.

Rhonda Eskander: It’s just it’s just a [00:36:20] cool.

Julius Cowdrey: Realisation when you look back and be like, wow, I actually did that my own. But you can actually fast track it. You know.

Rhonda Eskander: I think that also like, [00:36:25] you know, the whole posh thing that’s really I think it’s a really important conversation and we talk about [00:36:30] that a lot. Payman because I think that particularly in the UK, there is this massive, [00:36:35] massive narrative about people that come from a certain type of privilege, look a certain [00:36:40] way. And the funny thing is because, like my backstory is that my parents came as immigrants, my dad came to the [00:36:45] UK with like £20 in his pocket. But people, I still get judgement, even from a major [00:36:50] TV channel, which I don’t know if I ever told you about because they’re like she’s just too posh. She [00:36:55] sounds really posh because I went to a private school, but people don’t know the journey about how I ended up in private [00:37:00] school, which was actually quite complicated with what my parents had to do because they couldn’t afford it. [00:37:05] And it does annoy me. And, you know, Payman always says to me, people also feel that, [00:37:10] you know, children that may have come from privilege don’t have a right to be successful. And if [00:37:15] they are successful, they immediately say it’s because of their parents, it’s because they came from money, which is really unfair [00:37:20] because, he said, sometimes they have to try even harder because they have to prove themselves even more. [00:37:25] So I think that that is something that needs to be challenged a little bit, and there shouldn’t be shame around. [00:37:30] Everybody has a degree of privilege. Even if somebody went to a state school, for example, you [00:37:35] could say they’re more privileged than someone that’s homeless. Do you see what I mean? And someone that’s homeless, someone who’s disabled and [00:37:40] homeless, you see privilege. It can keep going. And of course, we are extremely lucky [00:37:45] that all three of us went to private school, Highgate as well. Right? So all three of us went to a good private school. So of course [00:37:50] we have better opportunities. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have your own challenges. That’s just my view. [00:37:55]

Julius Cowdrey: So an amazing image of, uh, of a helicopter flying and then the the [00:38:00] G wagon going, I wish I could be in a helicopter and then and then and then and then a [00:38:05] Volvo goes past and goes, I wish I could have a G wagon and then someone on a bike goes, I wish I could have a car. And then and then [00:38:10] someone walking goes, I wish I have a bike. And then the person who’s at the age 90 be able to walk goes, I wish I could [00:38:15] walk again.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Julius Cowdrey: And and it’s this endless comparison to others. I [00:38:20] think comparison can be healthy. But if if you know, you’re if you’re aware of it, you compare [00:38:25] and compare yourself to others. See where you stand. I don’t know if it’s always this unhealthy thing. [00:38:30] I think social media for sure. It’s I mean, sometimes I wish for us, I wish [00:38:35] I could be in like a, you know, caveman days, caveman days, and just be with a group of five people and just [00:38:40] be like, this is all I’ve got for the rest of my life. And, you know.

Rhonda Eskander: But that’s that’s what we were geared for as human [00:38:45] beings, you know, that is what we’re good for. But I think that you walking away from a TV show [00:38:50] that you recognise, no longer met your needs is extremely powerful and strong, because I would [00:38:55] say that people that keep going back, knowing that it’s not good for them, it’s a form of addiction, right? It’s a form of addiction, [00:39:00] and they can’t walk away from it, even though they know it’s not good for them. And so I think that’s amazing. [00:39:05] How then did you go into the coaching?

Julius Cowdrey: Sure. Yeah. For sure. [00:39:10] I agree with you completely by the addiction. It’s like and it’s also comfort as well. Like I can continue doing the show. [00:39:15] I know I can predict every next move and I’m doing the thing that isn’t the show is a risk. So I [00:39:20] know the reason why people stay in jobs that they don’t like. You heard of the region beta paradox. Whereas [00:39:25] this paradox that humans would actually be better off if things were awful because you’d make a change. So you [00:39:30] stay in the relationship that doesn’t serve you because they don’t ask you how you are and they don’t communicate with you. But if they were hitting you, you’d [00:39:35] probably make a change. You live in squalor at your house, but if the house was burning down, you’d probably hose it [00:39:40] down and be like, I need to sort this out. And the paradox is that we stay in things in this one life we’re living. We [00:39:45] stay in things that don’t serve us. I’ve stayed in relationships for far too long. When I was wildly [00:39:50] anxious and unhappy, and I’ve stayed in, I stayed in probably the show too long because it was just comfortable and easy, [00:39:55] and I knew the next move. It’s really hard to go off course because as humans, we’re wired for just predictable [00:40:00] predictability and comfort. Um, and, and I think it’s very easy [00:40:05] just to talk about it, but I think it’s like repping. You get used to kind of pushing, putting yourself [00:40:10] onto a different path. It just gets easier. Um.

Rhonda Eskander: But did you have a burning [00:40:15] house moment that pushed you to leave?

Julius Cowdrey: Um, I think it was a [00:40:20] I always feel like your intuition is like, um, someone knocking on the door from another room going, hey, [00:40:25] hey, hey, you shouldn’t be doing this, right. It’s like your authentic self [00:40:30] going, what are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you doing it? And I had that this rumbling for so long, um, um, [00:40:35] telling me, like, why are you doing this thing? It just felt so inauthentic and so out of my values. [00:40:40] I was doing this thing, but it was money. It was, uh, following growing [00:40:45] up. It was. I was doing brand campaigns, making me more money. It was I was I looked at it was very easy to [00:40:50] go. Oh, the positive. Just like race ship. Right. Well, you know, she’s she is nice on weekends and [00:40:55] and you know, and she’s beautiful and you know, when we when we’re intimate it’s great. But all these [00:41:00] but the problem is most of the time I wasn’t happy and it was this, this thing. So what [00:41:05] we just spoke about, I was just so comfortable in this place that didn’t serve me. [00:41:10] And I knew I was destined for more and destined for something else destined for. And like I said, [00:41:15] I with the show. I never thought highly of it. I guess maybe because I’d seen success in the Paramount success [00:41:20] growing up that, um, yeah, it just didn’t, um, it just was so misaligned [00:41:25] and I had it.

Julius Cowdrey: But it’s really hard because people stay on that show forever, and then they suddenly get to 40 and [00:41:30] they’re and they’re like, oh my God, I haven’t done anything with my life. I realised I wasn’t really doing anything in my life, even [00:41:35] though I thought I was. I didn’t know what hard work was until I left and had to set up a business and see it [00:41:40] failed at Covid. So that’s what happened. I set up a social media agency, influencer [00:41:45] agency, and I worked with this amazing girl, Emily, and it was going really well. And then Covid lost all my clients. So [00:41:50] I failed because of the time. And but it was a blessing in disguise. My brother had [00:41:55] started coaching because he wanted to help others. He’d been through very tough times emotionally, [00:42:00] mentally and he wanted to help people. So he trained to become a coach and [00:42:05] I saw how much value it gave him. So I was like, he’s like, just train. Because even if you train, you’ll [00:42:10] learn so much about yourself. Yeah. I was like, that’s interesting. Why? He said, well, the art of art, of [00:42:15] body language, asking great questions, being objective, all these things. Even if I didn’t become a coach, that [00:42:20] course was incredible. So I trained and I put it out on my social media. [00:42:25] Does anyone want to be coached by me? I think I felt massive unease about it because, you know, [00:42:30] what’s the what? What’s it called when you don’t think you should be there? Imposter syndrome.

Julius Cowdrey: I always forget that. So I definitely had [00:42:35] some form of imposter syndrome for sure, because you always do when you’re pushing yourself out the boundary. Um, and [00:42:40] I had an unbelievable experience with my first client. Um, I didn’t take anyone else on. [00:42:45] I, you know, she had been very, very unhappy, um, very wounded and [00:42:50] lots of trauma. And it was probably a bit past what I was capable of, but I had to lean in [00:42:55] and just do the best I could and had an amazing experience. So then I went, okay, well, this is this is [00:43:00] amazing. I feel again, this I feel like I’m supposed to be here for the. Actually, for the first time, I thought, [00:43:05] I’m supposed to be here. This is what I’m supposed to do. I thought it was music, but it didn’t really make me happy. I thought it was the show [00:43:10] because this was this new TV thing that I thought it was filling my cup at the time that was obviously [00:43:15] wounded, insecure person. And then the suddenly I was doing the social media and see [00:43:20] what failed. Oh my God. And then I coached and it started to feel like, this is why I’m here. I’m supposed [00:43:25] to help people, I’m supposed to help change people’s lives.

Rhonda Eskander: But don’t you think that’s what [00:43:30] everyone feels that they’re meant to do? Like, do you not think that all the professions in the world that people feel [00:43:35] most aligned to being in is where they’re helping people? Do [00:43:40] you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I know, I mean, I think all dentists can [00:43:45] resonate with what you said. Yeah. When you, when you get a patient who walks out and gives you like a [00:43:50] real genuine thank you.

Rhonda Eskander: Hug.

Payman Langroudi: Hug. And in your [00:43:55] case there’s tears and like but but.

[TRANSITION]: The ceremony.

Payman Langroudi: The the the genuine [00:44:00] thank you is more valuable than your paycheque, your social [00:44:05] standing, your. It’s such a, you know, helping someone else is such a beautiful thing. [00:44:10] At the same time, I don’t think all professionals I mean some, some guy might just love [00:44:15] carving, carving wood or something and just adores it, you know, like it gets into his zone. [00:44:20] Go ahead.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Do you think do you feel supported in this country. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: In the country?

[TRANSITION]: But that goes.

Rhonda Eskander: Back to the whole thing of like privilege as.

[TRANSITION]: Well in the.

Payman Langroudi: Country.

Julius Cowdrey: This country.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:44:30] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: By the government.

Julius Cowdrey: Uk.

[TRANSITION]: Do you feel.

Julius Cowdrey: Like people do you feel by people. Yeah. I guess [00:44:35] you can say we can, we can talk about the government but I’m not really. No well advised enough to talk about that.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:44:40] you had it in your.

Payman Langroudi: Post about Dubai being more supportive.

[TRANSITION]: Than.

Rhonda Eskander: It was so controversial. My post about Dubai [00:44:45] because Dubai being Dubai, I mean, essentially I’ve got friends that live in Dubai, Um, a lot of my [00:44:50] kind of. I’ve got my Middle Eastern friends that grew up there. So my Egyptian, Lebanese kind [00:44:55] of family, friends that their families moved there for whatever reason. So I’ve been going there for like 12 years before [00:45:00] there was the kind of British exodus. And then I’ve got some of my friends that have been expats in like [00:45:05] Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. and moved to Dubai. People always gave Dubai a really negative press [00:45:10] because they were like, oh, it’s so, um, superficial. It’s so, um, [00:45:15] it’s so based on, you know, money and looks and nothing is real. And I [00:45:20] went back a few months ago and my experience was totally the opposite of that. And there’s [00:45:25] a number of reasons why. And maybe they are selfish reasons. Number one, I felt that the [00:45:30] entrepreneur world was much more supported. So what you’re talking [00:45:35] about now in the UK is like they want to see businesses do well. And of course [00:45:40] the tax implications incentivise people more.

Rhonda Eskander: But there is this [00:45:45] real community of Of entrepreneurs. And what I find, sadly in the UK, I [00:45:50] don’t know if it’s becoming like this or it was always like this. People want [00:45:55] to see you do well, but there’s a bottleneck. So there’s like, okay, you can do this well and it’s definitely being [00:46:00] a business owner. I feel this because there’s a certain amount of income that if you earn over that, [00:46:05] you’re like, what’s the flipping point now. Because tax. Well yeah. And it’s just like and you know, having [00:46:10] so many members of staff and National Insurance. So yeah, that is a bit of a government argument. But [00:46:15] in general the community I feel is less than somewhere like [00:46:20] Dubai. And it was interesting because this was echoed by lots of entrepreneurs online. [00:46:25] Like Professor Galloway went on and said exactly the same thing. There was another British entrepreneur that I can’t remember, [00:46:30] and he was saying, it is so much harder to succeed in the UK than it is in the US and [00:46:35] Dubai, and that is why people are choosing to have.

[TRANSITION]: Businesses as.

Rhonda Eskander: An entrepreneur now, [00:46:40] the superficiality element, I’d say London is pretty superficial [00:46:45] as well. Sure, you have the contrast and the juxtaposition [00:46:50] of the different classes. You know, I live in Notting Hill, so of course, you know, you get [00:46:55] all walks of life in Notting Hill, as you know. But at the same time, and in Dubai, I [00:47:00] think.

[TRANSITION]: London.

Payman Langroudi: Is not superficial. And like on the, in the.

[TRANSITION]: World.

Rhonda Eskander: Maybe [00:47:05] in the social media world, maybe in.

[TRANSITION]: My kind of worlds.

Payman Langroudi: Scale. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Like, can.

Julius Cowdrey: You hide from it now [00:47:10] anyway?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Julius Cowdrey: There’s a there’s a jemmy. Carter said this. He [00:47:15] said, um, people what did he say? He said people. Um. [00:47:20] Oh, I can’t remember. Fuck. It’s like people want you to dream, right? [00:47:25] But people like to see someone going for it because it reminds them of their dreams. But people don’t like to see someone [00:47:30] do well because it reminds them of what they didn’t do with their lives. Yeah. And I think it’s really interesting. And I feel like [00:47:35] I feel very unsupported here. Right. I only because I have something [00:47:40] to compare it to. So you’ve been to Dubai, you feel like you’ve got this support and it’s fine, selfish reasons. Let me be selfish for a moment [00:47:45] to say, I went to San Francisco and Los Angeles and New York, and I go there and there are people [00:47:50] who you don’t know supporting you more than the people you’ve known for 20 years. I have friends I’ve known for all my life who haven’t [00:47:55] asked me about my business, and they know what’s happening. Who don’t, who don’t like the things online, who don’t say, oh, wait, I love what [00:48:00] you’re doing. Um, and it’s the reason why it’s driving. What a millionaire. Every 45 [00:48:05] minutes leaves the country. Not just because taxes are a joke, but also because people [00:48:10] kind of hate on you a little bit when you’re pushing outside the comfort zone or they go quiet. Um, and it’s [00:48:15] it’s actually very, very strange. I don’t I don’t particularly like it, don’t feel supported. And I go to a country where I [00:48:20] know no one, and I feel suddenly I’ve got people around me that want to back me and go, wow, you want to do that? [00:48:25] You know.

Rhonda Eskander: I’ll introduce you to this person. I’ll give you this contact.

[TRANSITION]: It happens.

Julius Cowdrey: Do you [00:48:30] know my perfect example? I asked a friend of mine who went for a catch up the other day, and I said [00:48:35] to her, let me give you the perfect example. My dad is Quentin Tarantino. We’ve just met and you’re an actress. [00:48:40] Obviously you are. And and, uh, you know, we’ve just met. Hi. Nice to meet you. Blah, blah. I’m an actress. [00:48:45] Oh, cool. In the UK. Nice. How’s it going? Yeah. Tough industry, isn’t it? [00:48:50] You. I mean, there’s a lot of people doing very saturated. Like, are you getting any jobs? So [00:48:55] true. San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York. My experience. Dubai. Probably yours. The exact same thing. It’s like, [00:49:00] oh, you know, I have some contacts. Like I can help. My dad’s pretty well [00:49:05] connected, you know, but I know lots of people. Can I help? And it’s the same thing [00:49:10] with investment. Someone said the other day, this is a perfect example. Investors in the UK are trying [00:49:15] to say no. Investors in Dubai. Definitely Dubai, San Francisco, [00:49:20] places like that. They’re trying to say yes, it’s this. It’s this amazing environment where you suddenly [00:49:25] feel bolstered up.

Rhonda Eskander: You feel, you know, so, so I obviously am so lucky to get asked to [00:49:30] do. I obviously work really hard to gain a position to be an expert on daytime television and [00:49:35] the morning shows and so forth. I won’t name the specific channel. It’s not ITV this [00:49:40] morning. Um, but because I love them and I still with them all the time. So [00:49:45] I went on and I went. So I went on another morning show. And look, I am [00:49:50] the way that I am. I look the way that I am. And they wanted me to talk about oral hygiene [00:49:55] advice or whatever. I went on the TV presenters loved me and someone [00:50:00] sent me a message, and then went on to write to the channel to say that I wasn’t suitable [00:50:05] to represent healthcare because I didn’t look like your typical Florence Nightingale [00:50:10] figure, and that this country needs more healthcare care professionals [00:50:15] that are less glamorous and less attractive. And I was like, what? You know, [00:50:20] like the fact that someone went out of their way to write that and the healthcare system [00:50:25] in the UK, obviously we’re super privileged to have it, but the narrative that you have [00:50:30] to look a certain way to give advice.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Still man it. Do you know what I mean by that? [00:50:35] Like say, say like make the case for that person.

[TRANSITION]: What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Was there no [00:50:40] case at all?

Rhonda Eskander: What? Make the case? In what way?

Julius Cowdrey: Like, tell us why they would say.

[TRANSITION]: Like what?

Payman Langroudi: Why would someone say that? [00:50:45]

Rhonda Eskander: Because of the way I look.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Which is not justified.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no. But if it was just like, [00:50:50] what would be the justification for.

[TRANSITION]: What was her?

Julius Cowdrey: What was that person’s justification? Why do they need you to look a certain way?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Payman Langroudi: Like, [00:50:55] listen, I’m take it away from you. It’s not you. Yeah. If one believes that [00:51:00] stuff has moved on too quickly, that even doctors now are showing [00:51:05] up with their hair, all done talking about glamorous things. Even the police or whatever. Whatever. [00:51:10] You know what I mean. Like, of course, you can highlight if this [00:51:15] person’s life is so boring that she takes time out to make a quote about me, she must be a sad. Of course [00:51:20] you say that. But but the what was the sentiment behind that [00:51:25] is an important thing, because maybe 11% of the population [00:51:30] thinks that. Yeah. Not just this one sad person. Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Okay. I [00:51:35] agree with you, but I would I still think that.

[TRANSITION]: I’m it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Important to steel man it in your own head.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I agree. I’m [00:51:40] not saying this was the right or wrong thing.

Rhonda Eskander: Self-reflection is really important, but I’m still in agreement with Julius that the underlying [00:51:45] I don’t have that problem. I don’t feel that problem with my colleagues in Dubai, [00:51:50] in America and so forth. I mean, look, I’m not even I even got a tabloid [00:51:55] came out. I didn’t even tell you that sensationalised something that I said, and the [00:52:00] headline was so horrific that I had to basically threaten them. They wanted me to tell the whole story about how my [00:52:05] dad came as an immigrant, and how I built this practice. They sold it to me. It’s like we want to write about like female empowerment [00:52:10] and how women can do this, etc. and then when it came out, they they had [00:52:15] taken things that I said and put the headline is immigrant daughter comes [00:52:20] to the UK and now owns a multi blah blah blah practice. And I was like, first of all this [00:52:25] is all lies. And they did take it down. But I was like, why are they trying to create an in the media is another [00:52:30] thing altogether. Why are they trying to create this like hate and animosity?

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Algorithms work that.

[TRANSITION]: Way. But [00:52:35] but I’m amazed you still have that headline in Dubai or America.

Rhonda Eskander: You just wouldn’t. Do you know what I mean? Like, this person [00:52:40] is now running a private practice. Do you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: You know what? You know what? Yeah. You [00:52:45] know. You know, you have a friend who’s, like, super positive. Someone like you, someone super positive, [00:52:50] you know, who’s always looking for the best things and stuff. And then you have got that other friend who’s quite good [00:52:55] at telling you what she hates about something. Yeah, I don’t like those people [00:53:00] around me too much, but they’re good at that. And Britain’s a bit like that. We’re good at saying what’s pissing [00:53:05] you off? What’s pissing me off?

Julius Cowdrey: It’s the reason why people love the sob story [00:53:10] is because it allows them to. Mm. Okay. So it allows them to. And the reason why they like [00:53:15] people, like watching reality TV and people fuck up. Excuse my language. And the reason why people [00:53:20] like seeing shit on the news. I’m swearing a lot today, um, is because it [00:53:25] makes them feel better about their life. That is pretty distinctly average. I’m really I’m really [00:53:30] like, there are a lot of people who don’t. The reason why they like to see the person fail, especially in this country, is because [00:53:35] it makes them go, wow, I should. I stayed in that job. I stayed in the comfortable thing. I [00:53:40] was right to, you know, look at that person who went out the comfort zone. And they’re probably not feeling very happy [00:53:45] with their lives and they haven’t achieved what I’ve achieved. So, so. But it’s all about the [00:53:50] the inner sort of reflection, isn’t it? It is. It’s like Americans, America, [00:53:55] everyone who went to America, everyone in America is our immigrants, right? Everyone. The place was completely [00:54:00] stark land and there were Indians and going around. I’m pretty sure I’m allowed to say that, [00:54:05] but, um. And double check. Yeah, whatever. But anyway.

[TRANSITION]: It was Native American.

Julius Cowdrey: Native, [00:54:10] Native Americans. It was completely empty wasteland, pretty much. And then everyone who’s ever gone is is [00:54:15] gone. I want a better life. So, like, let’s dream. It’s like the American dream. Let’s go [00:54:20] for it. Whereas actually, looking back, um, you were poor if you worked [00:54:25] in the UK. It comes from this, like all the way social thing, all the way back where royalty, royalty didn’t work, [00:54:30] the aristocrats didn’t work, and the paupers worked. So I [00:54:35] think there’s a it’s not a let’s go get it. Let’s dream. Let’s believe in each other. It’s like if someone does [00:54:40] better, it reminds me of how worthless I am. And it all comes to our own inner [00:54:45] stuff because most people are unevolved.

Payman Langroudi: Although there are downsides to the American.

[TRANSITION]: Way, [00:54:50] as you say.

Rhonda Eskander: Have you seen or read death of a salesman?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Rhonda Eskander: Oh, you really should. It’s really, really good. [00:54:55] It’s Arthur Miller, I don’t know if you know it. And obviously Arthur Miller had an obsession with the theme of the American Dream, [00:55:00] but the theme of the hard working man who did not fulfil the American dream. So there [00:55:05] is that dark side of it as well. And of course, as we know, the healthcare system in America, you will literally [00:55:10] die if you can’t afford treatment. So, you know, there is that. But I think we are talking from a place of [00:55:15] entrepreneurship and somebody that is hard and is willing to put in the work and doesn’t want to [00:55:20] be stigmatised for what school they went to or what they look like. And that’s what I feel. I feel the [00:55:25] American dream in that sense. And the Dubai dream now is encouraging people [00:55:30] that want to work hard. That’s the way that I see it.

[TRANSITION]: The way, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: South by southwest. [00:55:35] Come to London. South by southwest is a massive, like, um.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s [00:55:40] like a.

[TRANSITION]: Tech.

Payman Langroudi: Tech.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Culture. Whatever. Like, there is this change happening [00:55:45] here too, right? It’s all around Shoreditch, right?

Julius Cowdrey: I think London is the best place to live in the world for three [00:55:50] months of the year.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Agreed? Agreed.

Julius Cowdrey: Honestly, I guess the summer I’m like, this is why I’m [00:55:55] here. I’m making a swift exit as soon as I can. But visas are really hard in America. But.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:56:00] so are you moving?

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah, that’s the plan. That’s the plan.

[TRANSITION]: So tell.

Rhonda Eskander: Us then. So once you decided, [00:56:05] you know, you found your happy space with coaching, you were able to have a really profound effect on [00:56:10] people’s lives. I know that your brother does it as well. I actually have something to ask you about twins [00:56:15] because I’m quite fascinated by twins. I read loads of studies on it because I just think it’s really incredible. [00:56:20] People say that having twins, having a twin can have a massive impact [00:56:25] on your mental health. And this is I’m talking about kind of like scientific studies, not just Anecdotally, [00:56:30] what is your experience as being a twin?

Julius Cowdrey: I’ve always had a best [00:56:35] friend at my at my side. It’s actually the the greatest gift I’ve [00:56:40] ever had. Actually, we I never.

Rhonda Eskander: Even growing up as a little boy. Yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: In [00:56:45] fact, we probably isolated ourselves together because we just always had each other. Yeah. You know, we we [00:56:50] were in different dorm rooms, and we’re begging just to be next to each other, so. Yeah, we’re we’ve we’ve [00:56:55] just always got on so well. And through his stuff, I’ve always been there and through my stuff he’s always it’s like [00:57:00] this innate like love really that I feel very grateful for the fact that we [00:57:05] ended up going on these weird lives, and then coming back together and now working together is awesome. [00:57:10] He really pisses me off sometimes. And ditto likewise for him. With me, no [00:57:15] doubt. But, um, it’s so unrequited and unconditional that I just it is the greatest thing [00:57:20] I a lot of people ask, you know, do you think each other’s thoughts? I know, you know, do you think the same thing? [00:57:25] And can you get when you’ve grown up with someone and you’ve completely, like, [00:57:30] lived such a unique like the certainly the same unique experience together growing [00:57:35] up. Yeah. Find the same nurture. Um, you know each [00:57:40] other so well, you know, you know, a partner if you’ve if you’ve gone out with them for ten years. But I’ve known him since I was, you [00:57:45] know, de dot. Um, so it’s a pretty amazing experience. [00:57:50]

Rhonda Eskander: You’re non-identical. Right?

Julius Cowdrey: Non-identical?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that makes a difference?

Julius Cowdrey: Yes, I [00:57:55] well, I don’t know. I mean, we’re not. Yeah. We so we don’t have the same, um, DNA. [00:58:00] Completely.

Rhonda Eskander: Um, do you think that that helps them with the sort of identity piece, you know, because [00:58:05] we had we had a twin on here once, and he struggled. Identical twin. Um, and there [00:58:10] was a struggle, you know, with.

Julius Cowdrey: Identical twins who don’t speak to each other. Um, my, my dad is best friends [00:58:15] with one of the twins, and the other one lives abroad, and they don’t speak to each other. I, we [00:58:20] we were always put in different colours and we were never made to wear the same things. And, you know, you do. You [00:58:25] do that sport and you try this thing, or you try guitar and you try piano. So it was very much like, you [00:58:30] know, do different things. Um, you try French, you try Spanish. Just it was never [00:58:35] let’s pop you up against each other and and let’s see who wins. It was never, like, overly [00:58:40] like that. Uh, in fact, when growing up in this sort of cricket dynasty thing, our family. [00:58:45] Family didn’t want us to go into sport. Fabian went into it in the end, but it was very much like, [00:58:50] let’s, let’s. We don’t have to follow that path. Um, but yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: So talk to us [00:58:55] about how then the business developed. What’s it called and what does it offer?

Julius Cowdrey: It’s had it’s had [00:59:00] a few. Yeah. It’s developed from it’s interesting being an entrepreneur [00:59:05] and actually just constantly trying to solve problems, as you know. And we set up the company. [00:59:10] The reason why we set up the company is because we were coaching combined ten years. [00:59:15] We’re both coaching for about 4 or 5 years, each of us. And um, even just a little bit longer me just a little shorter. And [00:59:20] um, it was going really well, but we were turning clients down all the time because they couldn’t afford it. [00:59:25] I know my value. So this is how much I cost and a lot of people couldn’t afford it. And because I have a personal brand and so does [00:59:30] he. It wasn’t hard for people to get in touch, but we’re constantly having amazing conversations with people. How about they want to [00:59:35] change their life on these discovery calls, and then they can’t commit because they can’t afford it. And but I know my [00:59:40] value as a coach and people will be able to pay that one day. My client. Um, I [00:59:45] just had had 2 or 3 sessions with, so I was about three weeks in, told me that [00:59:50] if his parents couldn’t afford the one on one, he would have taken his life, which [00:59:55] was pretty stark, because the reason why I got into coaching was because of my friend who took his life. So [01:00:00] I went home to Fabian that day and I said, how many people have you turned [01:00:05] down this month? He said, five.

Julius Cowdrey: It was annoying. It was annoying as a coach, because we could work with more people and help more people, [01:00:10] and the whole point was impacting more people. But we’re charging this astronomical price because that’s what coaches do. And [01:00:15] I said, me too. I’ve probably turned on or turned down about the same three this week, in fact. [01:00:20] What if my client was one of those ten? You say, fuck, [01:00:25] what do you do? I say, well, let’s put them in charge. Let’s put them in a group. Let’s put them in a group [01:00:30] of ten. Let’s charge instead of three figures a week, let’s charge £40 a week, and then. And [01:00:35] then let’s have a WhatsApp group and meet every week. And different sessions will have different topics. And, and we’ll be there [01:00:40] for them and we’ll support them. And they thrived. I mean, transformed as quick as the one on [01:00:45] one. It was pretty stark because they had this support group. A lot of people are isolated, and then when they’re out of [01:00:50] that isolation, they realise they weren’t actually that fucked up as they thought they were. You know, I fucked up. I’ve got anxious, [01:00:55] I’m all these things. But actually they were lonely. I find that with clients, as soon as they just let things, let let the [01:01:00] steam out.

[TRANSITION]: They say therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Group therapy is such an interesting thing because you immediately [01:01:05] see, it’s not just me.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Julius Cowdrey: Not just.

[TRANSITION]: Me.

Payman Langroudi: These other people are going through the same thing.

Julius Cowdrey: It [01:01:10] was all about community. And so we did that with a group and then another group, and then another group, and we worked with five groups [01:01:15] of ten. We realised very quickly that we were helping by charging less, and we’re also making more [01:01:20] per the hour. So we’re like, this is more than just a humanitarian thing helping more. It’s actually a business, but [01:01:25] we’re exhausted and burnt out. Now we’re doing our one on one clients. We’re trying to, you know, navigate [01:01:30] life as it was. And then we were doing all these groups. How do we become the [01:01:35] platform that allows people to find communities from all aspects of health and wellness? I mean, it’s [01:01:40] so broad and and vast, isn’t it? Um, and so we set up Safe Space [01:01:45] that became Macho Coach, which is now joiner. And we had to have a year of proving [01:01:50] concept. Is this what people want? Do coaches want this? Do users want this? Do people stay? Is [01:01:55] the retention rate high enough? Like what is the how much should this cost? So we we used WhatsApp to [01:02:00] basically prove product market fit and that it works. Now in a in a country [01:02:05] where you say coach or therapist and people go, oh, there’s something wrong with you. Um, it [01:02:10] was challenging, but you know, we’d have to do lots of free trials.

Julius Cowdrey: But once people were in, they loved it. And we had a very [01:02:15] high not people didn’t leave. And if they left, it was because it was on WhatsApp. It was always the issue. We used WhatsApp [01:02:20] just to prove it. And so the coach would take a session on zoom, save their content on Google Drive, [01:02:25] use calendar to set it up, and then have WhatsApp for the chat. It was nothing. No all in one, [01:02:30] and there are a lot of all in one platforms. So after proving it, we’re now raising money and we’ve raised [01:02:35] half of our raise, which is really exciting to not only take it to America, to a to a [01:02:40] world which they’re 20 years ahead when it comes to self development awareness, and they actually accept it. But a [01:02:45] progressive web app, essentially a place where any [01:02:50] health and wellness professional can host their communities, drive volume by charging less. [01:02:55] We’ve worked out we’re creating about a 95% reduction in cost monthly. [01:03:00] Amazing. So usually it’s $800 to work with a coach, say on average it’s $40 [01:03:05] a month, um, versus 800. It’s and we’re [01:03:10] finally giving people the access to work with elite amazing experts. And [01:03:15] um, so that’s so after a year we’re now. Yeah, we’re doing that. So it’s very exciting. It’s very, very exciting. [01:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: Did you go into an accelerator?

[TRANSITION]: No we haven’t.

Julius Cowdrey: We haven’t done the accelerator.

Payman Langroudi: So so [01:03:25] explain, explain. There must be many people listening to this who’ve got a business idea. Yeah, [01:03:30] and the idea of raising money seems totally foreign.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. [01:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: How did you go from being that person? Which you must have been at some point to this person who’s [01:03:40] now raising money and all that?

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. So running a Start-Up is is endless, endless, [01:03:45] endless problem solving just the whole time, which I really like because I like getting to the crux of it. Fabian’s [01:03:50] more impatient than I am. So when it’s things like tech or anything like that, I just leave it to me. Um, [01:03:55] and he’s great at other things that I’m not so good at, so it works well. Raising money is not like Shark [01:04:00] Tank or Dragons Den. It’s really that. Really.

Rhonda Eskander: Did you not die? Do Dragons [01:04:05] Den? No. Yeah. But that that when you say say that again, I mean Payman we [01:04:10] actually turned down two of dragons and he always asked me, do you wish you’d taken it? And I again it is an if moment. [01:04:15] It was an if moment the episode was out there. And do you know that it’s still our best performing ad on [01:04:20] Facebook, even four years later? And I think I would always say, if you’ve got the opportunity to do [01:04:25] Dragons Den, do it.

Julius Cowdrey: Apparently a lot of people who go on Dragons Den, even they don’t, they either raise from [01:04:30] more people because they’re on Dragons Den or they raise from people. They look, I’ve just been on Dragons Den and this is my pitch. It’s actually [01:04:35] a great way to get your business out there anyway. I’ve searched businesses. When I’ve watched that show, I’ve been like, oh, you know, where are they [01:04:40] now? Um, but but it’s not like it’s really not like that. So there are lots and lots [01:04:45] of no’s. I’m like an extreme optimist, and I really am. Like, I’ve worked so hard, hard on myself [01:04:50] to not to not go to victim mindsets. And I lean on the positive side of the coin. [01:04:55] 99% of the time. But that’s through a lot of self-work and and and discipline [01:05:00] and like trying to master my thoughts. And it’s been very useful [01:05:05] being a founder with that attitude, because through the five [01:05:10] investors that we’ve raised money from one institution, all the others are angels. We’ve [01:05:15] had 80 no’s 80 times, and one day we had three no’s from people [01:05:20] who all said they’d invest. And we’re sitting there being like, the next day we got a biggest check. [01:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: And how did you meet 80 people?

Julius Cowdrey: So we went out to San Francisco. We were having we were struggling in [01:05:30] the UK classic. So we’re so we’re in the UK and people are like, oh, valuations are a bit [01:05:35] toppy isn’t it. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Classic. Classic.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. [01:05:40] And you know we have to lower valuation. Give me more equity. Am I getting a you know advisor [01:05:45] equity as well. And all this and like and you know respect for you know and [01:05:50] and is a risk to to investing in Pre-seed. You’re investing the founders because it’s less than the idea. [01:05:55] Right. We just were fed up and we heard about this thing called a safe agreement. So it’s [01:06:00] all about future equity. So say I come to you and say, hey, [01:06:05] invest in my company. It’s a safe agreement means I don’t have to go to lawyers to get big things signed [01:06:10] up. You get your equity on the second event or if we sell. So [01:06:15] it means I can just give you a quick sign. You don’t. You’re not on the cap table to start but you but it actualises on a valuation [01:06:20] cap. So say if we’re valued at 30,000,000 in 3 years time and we do our next event, but it’ll [01:06:25] it’ll actualise on the 10 million cap that we set at the start. So it’s just a really good way for founders just to go boom. [01:06:30] But it’s a very big Silicon Valley thing. And it was set up by Y Combinator. So we didn’t know about this. We go out to San [01:06:35] Francisco with two meetings. One was sort of actually with our cousin, and then another one with a very warm intro, [01:06:40] and we didn’t know anyone.

Julius Cowdrey: We had three weeks in San Francisco and I’m like, okay, [01:06:45] Fabian, we’re gonna say hello to everyone and anyone. I mean, to everyone we because we have to get into this ecosystem. [01:06:50] So we stayed in a place called Marina District. We took a punt. You know, we’re spending money to go there. We’re spending money [01:06:55] on hotels. But if we get one raise, it’s fine. Then one person who puts 100 grand or 50 grand in, [01:07:00] it’s an amazing investment. That’s why we’re going back next week to raise again. And so it [01:07:05] was day one and we went to a hot yoga studio. I love hot yoga. It’s just you feel like reborn [01:07:10] after um, and I’d had my cold shower and there was this older guy there. I was like, [01:07:15] well, you know, he, you know, he do you come here a lot. I said something like, you know, I was [01:07:20] and I think he thought I was flirting with him. He quickly told me that he was going through a divorce, and I was like, cool. Uh, but [01:07:25] anyway, he ended up investing. But the cool thing about that is I didn’t go [01:07:30] in with any intention. What I’ve learned about raising is not making it about, hey, here, my pitch, here my pitch. It’s more like, [01:07:35] let me know about you and understand you and this is my story, but make it about them.

Julius Cowdrey: People want to be to speak about their things. [01:07:40] We have the guy who’s doing our tech Fabian said hello to. I [01:07:45] said, your turn, your turn, your turn to say hello in a Pete’s coffee shop. And he’s this crazy, nerdy, [01:07:50] amazing, smart people. You need smart people in the journey. It’s what we want. [01:07:55] We met him in a Pete’s coffee shop and then built a relationship with him. We ended up walking away with 30 meetings. We raised [01:08:00] half, which we’re, you know, we were happy to raise anything. Um, and that was a big risk. Big, [01:08:05] you know, time risk money, financial risk. Cause we’re going out there spending a lot of money to be in probably [01:08:10] one of the most expensive places in the world. It’s mental. Um, but yeah. So I guess my [01:08:15] advice to anyone trying to raise money is it’s overly glamorised online, [01:08:20] and it’s really, really, really hard and make it as human as you possibly can. Don’t make it about, hey, [01:08:25] here’s my business. It’s amazing because guess what? These people with money who invest, they see thousands [01:08:30] and thousands of decks every single month. So if they’re going to invest in you, they’ll invest because they [01:08:35] feel connected to you. And fortunately, through the coaching, we’re quite good at that piece [01:08:40] to connect with people. And so that’s I think been why it’s done okay.

Rhonda Eskander: I think like the other [01:08:45] thing is like loads of especially because dentists think that they because of the new boom of kind of like [01:08:50] entrepreneur dentists that want to own ten practices and have lots of products and stuff. They [01:08:55] think they can just do it. And even when we release parlour like, loads of little competitors came along and they died [01:09:00] after like three months. Because I always say it’s not good enough to just have a product. No one cares about the product. They [01:09:05] want a story. They buy people, right? So I think that’s really important. If you’ve got the opportunity. [01:09:10] Like there’s actually two dentists that recently also went on to The Apprentice and they elevated their brands through [01:09:15] that as well. So I do think if you’ve got an opportunity to go on a platform that will elevate your marketing, great. [01:09:20] But like you said, it’s about building contacts and literally asking for help. I think it’s super, super, [01:09:25] super important. People forget to ask. So when.

[TRANSITION]: You say, but.

Payman Langroudi: Also on the other [01:09:30] side of that, yeah, because we see people wearing hoodies with 60 [01:09:35] different brands on them. We think sometimes some people think it’s only [01:09:40] about marketing and not about product. And that’s a massive, huge error [01:09:45] as well.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s only about product. It’s nothing about marketing products.

[TRANSITION]: Key I always.

Julius Cowdrey: Say that, [01:09:50] come on, obviously it’s 90% product because and the reason I say that is the greatest [01:09:55] form of success in your business is organic growth. It’s people saying, wow, this really works. [01:10:00] Like if you can you can, we could, we could market to the world. We could raise 10 million and [01:10:05] mark it to the world and bring on a hell of a lot of people. If it doesn’t work and it doesn’t help people.

[TRANSITION]: You’re.

Payman Langroudi: Getting to [01:10:10] the wrong place.

[TRANSITION]: Faster.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. And and I don’t know what you what do you think with.

Rhonda Eskander: I think, I think [01:10:15] I disagree because you think about all of these brands that have done well that aren’t great products, but the marketing is amazing or [01:10:20] brands that just have created a story, you know, one of the typical ones, like something like la mer. [01:10:25] Do you know about la mer, the creme.

[TRANSITION]: De.

Julius Cowdrey: La mer, like Nivea?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, it’s like Nivea and they sell it. People [01:10:30] still buy it. And it’s literally basically the same formula as Nivea. And they sell it for like £100 [01:10:35] because of the marketing and the models that they’ve got. And this brand has been going for years. Okay. And [01:10:40] people buy into it £100 for a pot like this, okay. Because of the marketing, because [01:10:45] of the story behind. It’s not because it’s a great product. It’s not. I’ve tried.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Julius Cowdrey: You make you make a really good point. [01:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good point. But but that was 20 years ago. The story. They were [01:10:55] way ahead. Like way ahead of what?

[TRANSITION]: Not the.

Rhonda Eskander: Product.

[TRANSITION]: Of the marketing. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: Way ahead of the trend for natural products on your skin. Like they were [01:11:05] maybe the first ever skincare company that was.

[TRANSITION]: Saying the story was, but not.

Rhonda Eskander: The.

[TRANSITION]: Product. That’s exactly what.

Payman Langroudi: We’re taking.

[TRANSITION]: From [01:11:10] the story.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, they happened to be criminals, maybe.

[TRANSITION]: No, but that’s.

Rhonda Eskander: The story. The story is [01:11:15] like just as you said. And it’s the same, you know, there’s, you know, Jisoo, it’s the oil hair brand. [01:11:20] Um, she is an influencer. I can’t remember her name now. Um, but she’s based in LA, has [01:11:25] a massive following on YouTube, etc. and she brought out this oil hair [01:11:30] brand. Loads of people have really good hair oils, [01:11:35] but she had this whole story about, I think, her bee farm in Iran and like how [01:11:40] her family helped develop it.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, the thing is in very.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Rhonda Eskander: A story.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s doing [01:11:45] very well.

Payman Langroudi: In very mature markets like skincare or water.

Rhonda Eskander: Hair [01:11:50] oil.

Payman Langroudi: Now water.

[TRANSITION]: Fine.

Payman Langroudi: There’s the ultimate marketing, right? If I see a bottle [01:11:55] of Evian, yeah, I’ll pay more for it than a bottle of Volvic Highland Spring. Whatever. [01:12:00] Because brand wise they’ve got me. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: And Apple.

Payman Langroudi: I get [01:12:05] it. Yeah, but the mistake people make is thinking it’s only.

Rhonda Eskander: No, I don’t [01:12:10] think so. I think.

[TRANSITION]: People know.

Payman Langroudi: People. Some people think that in our industry you can go to the Dental, the biggest show [01:12:15] in the world by product, and stick your logo on it. It’s all over. You [01:12:20] can buy product from China, Korea, you can buy you can you can get yourself a 400 [01:12:25] different SKUs of Dental products here. Whole composite ranges, stick your name on it, Rona [01:12:30] brand and do really well with it. Yeah, but at the end of the day, the product’s got [01:12:35] to work. It’s got to it’s got to.

[TRANSITION]: Do the job. It’s got to do the.

Julius Cowdrey: Job myself.

[TRANSITION]: By saying.

Julius Cowdrey: By saying look [01:12:40] at Uber and Bolt.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Julius Cowdrey: Right there that neither company were actually better at the start. [01:12:45] I think bolt actually came out before Uber. Well, sorry, it might be completely wrong, but I think I don’t think Uber were the first. [01:12:50] But actually Uber interestingly started as a black limousine company from San Francisco. That’s right. It’s like [01:12:55] it was a pretty it wasn’t a product that was going to scale. Um, it’s Airbnb was we have we’re [01:13:00] going to put mattresses on our floor. Air mattresses. Airbnb For conference weekends and will [01:13:05] close down the website when it’s not like it’s like there’s a big saying that I’m learning from people [01:13:10] out in San Francisco is like, you will hate your MP, MVP. It’s okay to hate your MVP, [01:13:15] but the way Uber won was through marketing, not product. I think, but they [01:13:20] still had to have a product that worked. So I think it’s a really it’s a really good it’s a really good debate. We’re [01:13:25] trying to create an amazing product and get to market quick, but scale a little slower so that we [01:13:30] can learn from users. And I think it’s a bit more, um, we have to be a bit more careful with [01:13:35] because it’s people’s mental health and it’s human rather than.

[TRANSITION]: If it was.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not like there’s [01:13:40] 300 companies like that and you have to differentiate on brand.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:13:45] say for example, you’re right. I have a therapist friend that was telling me about [01:13:50] better health, better health, better health. Yeah. And actually it’s really controversial. Therapists don’t like it because [01:13:55] what’s happened is, is that they feel so you know the premise, right?

[TRANSITION]: You go, I.

Payman Langroudi: Would do that and I wouldn’t. [01:14:00]

[TRANSITION]: With a.

Julius Cowdrey: Therapist.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Rhonda Eskander: But wait for it. So as a therapist, she was telling me that lots of therapists [01:14:05] have been protesting and saying it’s not good enough. First of all, they’re offering people treatments [01:14:10] or whatever sessions for like £30, £20, etc. but actually the premise of the [01:14:15] company I might be wrong is that they are collecting as much data as possible to, in the end, create an AI [01:14:20] product where basically they’re going to phase out therapists.

[TRANSITION]: Chatgpt is my best friend, I’m not gonna lie. [01:14:25] What’s wrong with their advice?

Rhonda Eskander: Sometimes, okay. I really do.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, but what’s wrong with that?

Rhonda Eskander: Because in the therapist world, [01:14:30] there’s this whole kind of ethical debate about all of that. Because it’s mental health, right? So listen, I’m [01:14:35] just I’m not I’m saying it’s my opinion, but this is what she was expressing to me. So I do think that Julius is [01:14:40] right. Like you have to also make sure because maybe BetterHelp started out for the [01:14:45] wrong, the right reasons. But then when you start thinking about scaling and numbers and so forth and AI. It [01:14:50] does become a little bit blurred. And I think when it involves healthcare, mental health, etc., we do have to be [01:14:55] careful.

[TRANSITION]: Um, be careful with that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no reason why there. Listen, man, this pod will not [01:15:00] exist in ten years time. Some I will be acting as me well, some I will be.

[TRANSITION]: I actually [01:15:05] disagree.

Payman Langroudi: He’ll post his eye in and.

[TRANSITION]: I will talk.

Julius Cowdrey: I highly disagree, I actually think, um, there’s going [01:15:10] to be, you know, the world sways like this, doesn’t it? It’s like, you know, even like.

[TRANSITION]: The woke.

Julius Cowdrey: Movement. [01:15:15] We don’t we’re not going to go there. But like, you know, it went so far that way. And now the world in America is going, [01:15:20] you know, I want it to go the other way. Let’s let’s get it back to normality. Whatever. Whatever people [01:15:25] think is normality. I think it’s the same with AI. Ai is going pretty crazy, and I think there’s a place [01:15:30] and it’s going to really rock it, and it’s going to be amazing for so many reasons.

[TRANSITION]: To have this.

Rhonda Eskander: Conversation, the metaverse, I’m telling you. [01:15:35]

Julius Cowdrey: But but I genuinely.

[TRANSITION]: But I think.

Julius Cowdrey: More than ever, and we speak to a lot of investors [01:15:40] about AI because they go, what? What are you going to do with AI and how are you going to do it? And we try and pre-empt it by saying, look, we’ll use AI as [01:15:45] possible as to to speed things up. We might some of the coaches could have, you know, AI agents [01:15:50] that could learn about them to then, you know, have so that their users could have 24/7 support. And [01:15:55] by their coach, you know, Tony Robbins has his own AI. Now Matthew Hussey who’s a relationship coach, has his own eye. Um, [01:16:00] but in essence, we say [01:16:05] with the rise of AI, people will need joiner more than ever. In fact, people [01:16:10] will be searching for connection even more because they’ll be so pulled away. I mean, look at social media. It’s actually people are [01:16:15] feeling less connected, more lonely. There’s more isolated people globally than ever. If [01:16:20] we talk about, you know, you said the highest rate of, of any industry is suicide, is, you [01:16:25] know, suicide went up in women 150% in the UK last year. It’s absolutely [01:16:30] mind boggling. So people are lonely and isolated, and we’ve seen firsthand what what happens [01:16:35] when people are talking about their stuff and open and in a group and feel supported at all times [01:16:40] that it changes. Um, it changes your mind. It’s unbelievable the impact. [01:16:45] So I think I will do some awesome things and yeah, it might faze some therapists out, but [01:16:50] I personally, if I want to work with a therapist, I’ll talk to a real person who actually has real thoughts.

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:16:55] but you know what the thing is, is like, I think I think also that you’re underestimating, like, trends change all the time. [01:17:00] Like, for example, like you even think about like, and I think one of the most important things as a business owner and entrepreneur, [01:17:05] which you would agree with and you would agree with, you have to pivot and you have to be willing to [01:17:10] pivot. Um, you know, with.

[TRANSITION]: No, I was.

Julius Cowdrey: Thinking of friends when you went pivot.

Rhonda Eskander: There [01:17:15] we go. So but you know, it is I think it’s like people forget to do that because with [01:17:20] parlour for example, the for like what was at the, at the full [01:17:25] mind, what was at the forefront of my co-founders minds and asked at the time, [01:17:30] sustainability. It was all about sustainability. There was no sustainable toothpaste. It was all about the sustainability [01:17:35] piece. And actually today we had a meeting and we were like, cool, this is actually the direction that we’re going [01:17:40] to pivot in now because a lot of people are doing sustainability. So whilst that was one of our USPS and we [01:17:45] have to still align with that, markets change. People want different things. And it’s the same with like [01:17:50] the beauty industry. Like a few years ago, everyone wanted that Kim Kardashian look, you [01:17:55] know, and now people are like, God. I did this post on TikTok about the girl from White Lotus and [01:18:00] how she had these, like, very prominent teeth and she looks amazing. It was so refreshing to see someone [01:18:05] not have their teeth done. And I was like, okay, this is interesting. Like people want to see more of that. So I think things [01:18:10] change all the time. So he’s right with the eye stuff. Sure, there’s going to be a big surge and then people [01:18:15] are going to come back around again and value more authentic connections. You know, I go on detox [01:18:20] retreats in Costa Rica and basically live with a cult for a week because I want to get away from social media [01:18:25] and that life, you know. So I think I think you’re right.

Julius Cowdrey: Back to, um, with Parler, [01:18:30] I, I think for us going forward with our business, it’s it’s focussed on the problem, [01:18:35] not the business. So like, the money will come based on the impact that we create, but the problems might always [01:18:40] change. So we’re like, okay, this is what’s working now. But like you said, it might not work down the line. So I think, um, [01:18:45] it’s really back to the, you know, advice for any founder like, and I’m pretty early [01:18:50] in my journey, but from the experience it’s just, It’s like, uh, [01:18:55] you know, when you, uh, you know, when you’re waterskiing. Sorry. Not waterskiing. When you’re when you’re like, on a you see [01:19:00] those people on a board just behind a boat and they’re like, you know. Right. But at the start, they’re holding something and then they let go. And then [01:19:05] that’s how it feels. You have to really guide the wave. It’s always ever changing. The world is ever changing. I [01:19:10] will be I want to lean into how amazing I will be and how much it’s been [01:19:15] amazing so far. I mean, how the hell I would have done all the things to get to here in such [01:19:20] speed because, I.

[TRANSITION]: Mean.

Payman Langroudi: Where are you at? I mean, do you have employees? Customers?

Julius Cowdrey: We [01:19:25] have. It’s me and my brother, and then we have someone in South Africa helping us with the nitty gritty things. [01:19:30] And then we have a tech lead in the US who’s got equity. And apart from that, it’s just. Yeah, [01:19:35] it’s mainly us just fighting at the, the big fight. Um, but then we, [01:19:40] we, we raised to then employ. So, so it’s all a part of that. It’s. Yeah, it’s [01:19:45] actually just really fun. I think as long as you’re the mission is really, really obvious here. And the mission comes from [01:19:50] trying to solve the problem and the problem that we felt firsthand. And I think that’s what gets you. Through the [01:19:55] 18 O’s or the or the days when you’re just like, oh my God, I haven’t had a salary from this for a year and a half. [01:20:00] And like, I’m having to do all these other things to make me money. Um, because and and that’s why I think [01:20:05] that’s why it adds to the pressure. Because you’re just like, I really just want to provide for myself as well. Like, it’s [01:20:10] it’s really testing, but, um, it’s it’s the most exhilarating.

Rhonda Eskander: Sabotaging your own ability [01:20:15] to get into a relationship. So whilst you’re justifying that, you’re saying, like, you know, there’s [01:20:20] like these women that are not particularly kind of emotionally available or whatever, but do you think [01:20:25] in some way maybe you’re not emotionally available because you don’t feel like you can provide for [01:20:30] a family or whatever?

Julius Cowdrey: Oh, I think I think you’re going somewhere else. Interestingly, I, um, [01:20:35] have definitely not been emotionally available because I want [01:20:40] to get this baby off the ground, and and I work and I [01:20:45] and I just don’t know if it’s I can give the time that is required to [01:20:50] to someone who deserves a lot, right? So I want to if I’m [01:20:55] going to, if I’m going to be all in and actually receptive and open to spending time with someone, I don’t particularly [01:21:00] want to drink much because it slows me down and I. I don’t like feeling anxious the next [01:21:05] day. I don’t particularly want to have late nights. I like fasting, so I usually stop around 6 or [01:21:10] 7, so to go out for dinners. But that’s fine. I can do that. And then and then I’m texting during the day [01:21:15] and I think it’s gonna, it’s gonna take for a very unique person [01:21:20] multitask.

[TRANSITION]: Right. I really we.

Julius Cowdrey: Really can’t multitask. Um, but on [01:21:25] to that point. I was I was very avoidant for quite a while and, and actually feel more receptive [01:21:30] and open forever. But the interesting thing is, because I’m not I’m going to the US, I’m just like, I can’t date anyone because I’m. [01:21:35] Yeah, I’m 25 year old. I was speaking to actually someone [01:21:40] about this last night. 25 year old Julius would have just dated and just [01:21:45] had fun and not cared about the outcome. I’ll just date, date, date fun, fun fun And then it doesn’t. [01:21:50] Fine. It’ll be fine. It’ll be fine and probably hurt them. Right? But I’ve got to a point where when I was in an avoidant [01:21:55] place and I started dating someone and they wanted more and I didn’t, couldn’t give it to them, slash it was too [01:22:00] much. Right? So because I was in that space where I wasn’t ready to open up my heart, and now [01:22:05] I’m ready to open that up.

[TRANSITION]: But are you?

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I guess [01:22:10] I’d like to think I am. I feel really receptive and open and willing. But then exactly [01:22:15] time. I’m like, oh, I mean, I just, I basically need, I need [01:22:20] I would like someone who’s also grinding really hard and working on their stuff and like, and I’d love [01:22:25] to go out with another founder, I think, who’s just like, who’s who’s fighting that fight and gets it. [01:22:30] Um, because it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: It might work or it might not, isn’t it?

[TRANSITION]: But because he always.

Rhonda Eskander: Said [01:22:35] this.

[TRANSITION]: Because.

Rhonda Eskander: I was obsessed with trying to meet someone that was on that kind of like, [01:22:40] he knows this. Like I was like, oh, I want someone basically that’s like the male version of me. And he was like, [01:22:45] you are not going to find anyone that’s male version of you, because it will be a nightmare. You can’t have two of [01:22:50] you. Do you know what I mean? Like you used to say that to me all the time, and I was like, okay. And I suppose, like, [01:22:55] maybe there is a sort of like truth in that. Um, because maybe you do need like [01:23:00] a balance of energies and so forth. I hear you, but what I think you’re talking more about is values.

[TRANSITION]: Do you [01:23:05] think, do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think you’ve given like, a name to your pain and somehow, like, I don’t know, like, [01:23:10] like just from a totally different idea? Like, if I drop $100 million into [01:23:15] your account, your back would still hurt as much as it hurt to 10s before [01:23:20] I put 100. I know you’re back, but you know what I mean. Whatever thing is pissing you off would [01:23:25] still be pissing you off as long as that thing wasn’t fixable with money, which most of the things aren’t, you [01:23:30] know, you would still be you with 100 million. So. So now now the the comparison. [01:23:35] You know that. Oh, let’s say Miss Perfect came along, you know, there [01:23:40] would be this rush at the beginning. But then when all of the pieces [01:23:45] settled, still be you, you know, and you wouldn’t necessarily [01:23:50] be a different person even though there was this Miss Perfect.

Julius Cowdrey: Money. Money solves [01:23:55] money problems.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: Navel speaks about this incredibly. Money solves money problems. Um. [01:24:00] And and. Yeah, I want to be able to provide. So. [01:24:05] Yeah. Then then money problem. Right. I want to be able to give my wife, my kids a life that [01:24:10] that they, they, they are proud to be and live and but the thing is, I think we, we, we [01:24:15] put so much expectation having to, to make so much and do so much [01:24:20] like.

[TRANSITION]: So when.

Rhonda Eskander: Does it end? That’s what I’m trying.

[TRANSITION]: To say.

Julius Cowdrey: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Entrepreneurship is so fraught with failure anyway [01:24:25] that if you fail, you mustn’t feel like you failed in your relationship.

Julius Cowdrey: I just don’t [01:24:30] think there’s anything. I actually think there’s no such thing as failure.

[TRANSITION]: And the reason.

Julius Cowdrey: Why I think.

[TRANSITION]: There’s financial.

Payman Langroudi: Failure, let’s say the [01:24:35] company goes bust and it doesn’t work.

[TRANSITION]: Out.

Payman Langroudi: Lesson that.

Julius Cowdrey: Lesson, that.

[TRANSITION]: Lesson that.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: I don’t [01:24:40] think there’s anything any such thing as failure. I think failure is the greatest thing actually, if you want to say it [01:24:45] is. I think it is that and it’s a very this is a very obvious thing to say because you hear it a lot. But I genuinely, [01:24:50] truly believe it, that failure is every time a lesson, every time, every time [01:24:55] I, I went back to that girl I shouldn’t have done or I got, you know, I went, I was in a relationship, I was cheated on or, you [01:25:00] know, whatever I made those errors of, I fell down and fell down and fell down. And, and I had to critique [01:25:05] myself and give myself a hard time and work. I’ve learned so much to the place where I’m just so much more evolved [01:25:10] as a result of it. I’ve. I’ve seen them all like as an absolute win every single [01:25:15] time.

Rhonda Eskander: But it’s like what you said even about like, the burning house analogy. And we once had a great friend of mine, [01:25:20] Louis, who’s brilliant. And do you remember this? I’ll never forget this quote. Louis said, um, he’s [01:25:25] like the vegan poster boy. I don’t know if you know Louis Blake, but anyway, he once said he goes, A sick [01:25:30] part of me wants things to go wrong, because I want to see how far [01:25:35] I can push myself and my limits.

[TRANSITION]: To get.

Rhonda Eskander: To get out of that, you know? And [01:25:40] I was like, you know what? Like, sometimes I feel that as well because like you said, sometimes like you’d [01:25:45] never you on paper you’re not like, oh, I wish I was like in an abusive relationship or I lost anything, [01:25:50] but that’s what pushes you to get out, you know, like at the other you. [01:25:55] The only way out is through. Do you know what I mean? So, like, that’s sometimes how I see failure. [01:26:00] Sometimes I’m like, bloody hell, I really hope it’s not going to be all cushty all the time, you know? But the only thing is, like my [01:26:05] clinic, I’m like, that’s mine forever.

[TRANSITION]: Would you.

Julius Cowdrey: Like it? Would you like it if you, uh. If [01:26:10] they could go into your brain and they could, uh, basically [01:26:15] spear in on your dopamine and you’re happy the whole time?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Julius Cowdrey: Like they [01:26:20] did, they did the test with monkeys, and so they did the test with monkeys, and I actually, [01:26:25] I don’t actually know the outcome of what happened to the monkeys, but I guess the question is if they could go [01:26:30] into, um, into your joy receptor and make you feel joyful the whole time, would you want that? And you’d be like, probably [01:26:35] like probably no, I and people say no, right, based on this test. And then they go, okay, well, if they could tap into [01:26:40] your purpose the whole time and you’re always into your purpose, purpose? Purpose. Now, the truth is that [01:26:45] and the test. Test basically results in the fact that we need the waves to be able to [01:26:50] to appreciate the that life is is we need unpredictability. I think even [01:26:55] though we’re searching for comfortability, there is something so exciting [01:27:00] about living in this, ah, what’s happening next? Walking through the mist. What’s going to happen?

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:27:05] you know what? Unfortunately, I do think what takes us out of that and what dehumanises us in a way, is social [01:27:10] media, because also the personas that you are projecting on social media or what you’re seeing and internalise [01:27:15] as what you think would give you the ultimate happiness isn’t reality, you know? And I [01:27:20] really see that, like, my parents are so in love. They’ve been together for 35 years. They grew up without [01:27:25] social media. I really do feel like social media creates like pulls [01:27:30] us in to like my life could be better like this person. My life could be like this. I [01:27:35] could be, you know, as I told you, even my comparison to, like, the reality TV stars, I’m like, oh, if I went on the show, would [01:27:40] I have been happier? Do you see what I mean? That kind of thing. And no matter how much work you do on yourself, I don’t [01:27:45] think you can become immune to that technology, especially when you start getting into the vortex of this echo [01:27:50] chamber, because all the content is geared into kind of like this sort of confirmation bias. So you’re like, [01:27:55] yeah, yeah, I would have been happy. I would have been happier because that’s what they are geared to do. Have either one of you watched, [01:28:00] um, the Dark Side of Kid Fluency? I watched it last night.

[TRANSITION]: No. [01:28:05]

Rhonda Eskander: It’s fascinating. So just quickly on this point because I think it is important. So the documentary [01:28:10] is about the rise of kid Fluencers. So these kids that want to become YouTube stars. I mean, I [01:28:15] had no idea. It was like a whole world, to be honest with you. And one girl, her mother was extremely opportunistic, [01:28:20] Britney Spears style and wanted her daughter to become very famous, put her in pageants [01:28:25] from a very young age, then got her onto YouTube. She gained millions of followers pretty [01:28:30] much overnight and brought in all these other like child YouTubers, and [01:28:35] the parents were kind of involved but created this like squad. But her daughter was the main focus. [01:28:40] And then obviously things turned really dark because unfortunately they started feeding the beast [01:28:45] because to continue with the likes and the engagement and the [01:28:50] money, you need to keep doing something more and more outrageous every day. [01:28:55] And when there’s kids involved, it’s just crazy. And it’s like, where does it stop? And [01:29:00] you can see these kids that kind of some of them like left talk about how affected they [01:29:05] are and they’re only children, you know. And I think it’s like a really dangerous space, [01:29:10] to be honest with you. And that’s what I’m saying. We’ve not really lived through the full effects of social media for [01:29:15] us or our children, and that’s why I think that can strip us, strip us of our real, like happiness [01:29:20] and humanity. That’s my truth.

Julius Cowdrey: Massively, massively. I speak to clients about your pillars [01:29:25] of peace or mitigating anxiety. I know exactly [01:29:30] how to. And I’ve got to a place where, again, I’ve worked on myself to understand this is like I can live an anxious free [01:29:35] day. I can live a day where I have a calm inner critic. Wasn’t always nice, was? Yes, exactly. [01:29:40] Again, back to Navarre, he says happiness is when you don’t want anything to be changed. It’s like a simple [01:29:45] way of defining happiness. And I think happiness is such a spectrum. But if if [01:29:50] we put crap food into your body simply, you will feel crap. [01:29:55] I feel anxious if I eat really, really shit food. If I did for the whole week and I had just burgers, chips, [01:30:00] crisps, whatever it is for the whole entire week, I’m gonna feel really dodgy. I feel awful, actually. In fact, probably not very good [01:30:05] in my mind. Now, if I spend time with five pessimistic people who just drain you, then [01:30:10] you’re going to feel in the exact same way you’ll probably feel anxious. You’ll probably be doing the same thing moaning about [01:30:15] life being a victim.

Julius Cowdrey: The exact same thing is with social media, and I don’t think it’s spoken about enough that it is [01:30:20] a diet in itself. Everything you consume that goes through your eyes and produces [01:30:25] the picture and then goes into your mind and then sits there in your subconscious, is ultimately going to affect the way you think about your life, [01:30:30] the way you think about yourself. And we are we are creatures of comparison. So if we know that we are [01:30:35] and we’re still following the the sexy model because, you know, because she looks great [01:30:40] or or the or the the person who puts up that really unhealthy content, um, or [01:30:45] or political news the whole time, which is so damaging and just therefore, again, clickbait and [01:30:50] to make, make us sort of distracted from what actually life’s about and take us out of our present, then [01:30:55] ultimately I think it’s going to affect us, and I think we need to see it as a diet, just like the food, [01:31:00] just like the people around us.

[TRANSITION]: I love that. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, but but, you know, society [01:31:05] changed for your parents dramatically. Dramatically. So media changed [01:31:10] dramatically. There was someone saying, oh, there was no radio [01:31:15] before radio. There was, uh, people going out and playing in the forest. [01:31:20] Then TV, then TV came along, and then then the internet [01:31:25] got damn internet and social media. Now we’ve got, you know what I mean? Like the the [01:31:30] media landscape will change. There will be positives and negatives in it. Uh, [01:31:35] if I could push a button and switch off media, yeah, would I? Certainly [01:31:40] not.

[TRANSITION]: Oh my God.

Rhonda Eskander: You need to go to Costa Rica. Brave earth. You’ll change your mind.

[TRANSITION]: Guys, I did I.

Julius Cowdrey: Did a 24 [01:31:45] hour over over the weekend. Just 24 hours.

Rhonda Eskander: I’ve done it. I’ve done it for, like a [01:31:50] week, two weeks.

Julius Cowdrey: And you’re my hero because of it. But I did a 20. I’d be [01:31:55] happy for me.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, 24.

Rhonda Eskander: Hours.

[TRANSITION]: Go.

Julius Cowdrey: I did 24 hour detox. Not as easy as it sounds. [01:32:00]

[TRANSITION]: No.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s hard. And I did. No phone. Phone actually went into the car. Locked. Hide my key, please. That’s how much [01:32:05] I didn’t want to be tempted by this thing that I’m addicted by. And I felt amazing. [01:32:10] I felt calm, but at the start I kept on going to my pocket looking for [01:32:15] for no reason.

Rhonda Eskander: I do that to.

Julius Cowdrey: Mental and, um. It was an [01:32:20] amazing experience. And in fact, I wanted to do it more. I had the same experience with fasting. I’ve [01:32:25] been doing some of these long fasts. So 24 hours, 36 hours.

[TRANSITION]: Ten days. Sorry, I’m not.

Rhonda Eskander: Trying to trump [01:32:30] you with everything. Okay? Hey.

Julius Cowdrey: Sorry again. My hero. Oh, [01:32:35] God. I mean, I just I want to be here. Um, but I did this, this 24 hour [01:32:40] fast, which is a long time for me. I like food, and I like the way it makes me feel. Whatever. And for the first six hours, [01:32:45] just like the first six hours of my phone, I’m like, my body’s gasping for food, like. Like I’m going to die [01:32:50] of starvation. And just like my phone. And I want to see this thing because of the dopamine it’s going to give me. But [01:32:55] after those six hours or whatever, it was calm, calm, calm [01:33:00] and focus from not eating. Same thing with the phone. My mind was thinking of these amazing ways. [01:33:05] I thought to myself, this is amazing. Thomas Edison used to sit in a box room and just let his thoughts solve [01:33:10] the problem. Steve Jobs used to do to do meditation and go up and be on his own so that [01:33:15] he could solve the problem. Because your mind is incredible, but we access so little of it. You must you must [01:33:20] have found that with with doing your ten day fast.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: No, I mean, look, I love doing all this, like, woo [01:33:25] woo stuff, like, you know, Payman knows all about that. Um, I want to ask you a final question. [01:33:30] Um, Julius? Well, first of all, where can people find your platform, um, if they want to go [01:33:35] on and find it? And also, where can people find you on social media?

Julius Cowdrey: Okay. [01:33:40] Um, I’ll start with me. So my if there are not many julius’s around, but, uh, Julius Cowdrey [01:33:45] JL Cowdrey c o w DIY is my social. If you want to look at the [01:33:50] questions on the mic, if you want to, if you want to come on the mic, just send me a message. I ask everyone, anyone a question. So [01:33:55] um, get in touch. Um, and when it comes to Joyner. Joyner community, [01:34:00] Joyner Dot community, um, it’s in the works. Um, the website’s bought. It’s all there, [01:34:05] but it’s not launched yet. We’ve, um. So stay tuned for that. But I’d love you to follow the follow the journey. [01:34:10]

Rhonda Eskander: Okay. Amazing. And then the last question is, I know we’ve touched on this. What would [01:34:15] make you happy? Right now. [01:34:20]

Julius Cowdrey: Right now in this.

Rhonda Eskander: In this.

[TRANSITION]: Year, in.

Julius Cowdrey: This.

Rhonda Eskander: Year, in this year, in this.

[TRANSITION]: Year. [01:34:25]

Julius Cowdrey: Uh, my we’re coming to the end, so I don’t want to. We can. [01:34:30] We could easily open a can of worms. My biggest blocker at the moment. I’m surprised I didn’t ask it when you said, [01:34:35] what are you struggling with? Because I just went to business. And because I think maybe that’s the easier path than the. The truth is [01:34:40] that I have been closed off and for me it’s about opening up my heart. So [01:34:45] I’ve been doing quite a lot of breathwork, talking about being woo woo recently, and it’s all about being receptive and open to [01:34:50] love. Mhm. Um, because I know I’ve been closed off to protect myself. Um, [01:34:55] and I think a lot of people are and the first step is just knowing that you are [01:35:00] and just being willing to, to sit in the new [01:35:05] narrative. I am ready. And so when you ask me, are you sure you’re ready? I’m like, I’m ready. And even if I deep [01:35:10] down I believe I’m going to keep saying I am because I want to attract healthy love.

[TRANSITION]: I love.

Rhonda Eskander: That. Thank you so much [01:35:15] and thank you for joining us today. It’s been absolutely amazing. And for those watching, don’t forget to follow and [01:35:20] subscribe to Make Payments podcast. Finally, the number one Dental podcast. Thank you so much. [01:35:25]

[TRANSITION]: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training, where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when you [00:00:15] know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: And you guys are both judges on [00:00:50] awards. You’ve done.

Vinne Attariani: Awards. We’re both doing it on.

Payman Langroudi: This private dentistry.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what awards have [00:00:55] you judged before?

Vinne Attariani: So I’ve done private dentistry. This is third year. [00:01:00] Third year. I’ve done private dentistry, and I did the dentistry awards a couple of [00:01:05] years ago as well. I’ve done this year. I was judging, um, [00:01:10] I’m trying to think now. We did best team. Best team, the [00:01:15] best team for a couple areas.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is that how it works? You only judge one of the categories.

Vinne Attariani: You [00:01:20] get one category usually assigned to two dentists, and you’ll get one category, but then [00:01:25] certain areas of the country. So we had North and I had London. And [00:01:30] then somebody else might have best team in the other regions.

Payman Langroudi: So how does it work. How [00:01:35] do you how do you even become that judge? Do you ask or do they ask you, how does it work?

Vinne Attariani: I was invited.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. [00:01:40] I think initially you were invited. And then and then this year I, I got invited. [00:01:45] So, um. Yeah. I don’t think it’s anything you apply for, it’s you just wait [00:01:50] to be invited. And I think that’s what happened.

Vinne Attariani: Or if you keep entering too many awards [00:01:55] and you’ve won quite a few, then they sometimes make you a judge.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:02:00] you entered them as well?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. So our practice got, um, for Leamington. Our practice got best [00:02:05] practice, UK best patient care. Oh. We won. Um, we won best team [00:02:10] for our area as well. So that was after Covid. So it was 20, [00:02:15] 2020.

Payman Langroudi: And so when you judge these awards they what what are the kind of [00:02:20] typically what comes in. Do you get some super professional PR company [00:02:25] bits come through and then some other people not so professional or what comes what happens.

Martin Attariani: To [00:02:30] be honest, I mean there is a criteria that they have to fulfil obviously. So there’s a set criteria [00:02:35] and then you can have anything come through. You [00:02:40] got entries that are very bespoke and very professional. Um, [00:02:45] and you know, you can tell that, you know, money has been spent [00:02:50] on it or even a lot of time spent on it. And you can have just entries that are just, just [00:02:55] basically a word document.

Vinne Attariani: Like a one A4.

Martin Attariani: Page. One page. So [00:03:00] what’s the instruction scale?

Payman Langroudi: What are the instructions or the instructions to ignore the [00:03:05] quality of the production?

Martin Attariani: I think it just comes down [00:03:10] to the to the content of it really. And one of the most important things that [00:03:15] the majority of, of the entries failed at is to deliver the [00:03:20] required criteria.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re taking more.

Martin Attariani: So [00:03:25] exactly. So you’ve got a list to go through. Make sure that everybody [00:03:30] fulfilling the criteria initially.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s a.

Martin Attariani: Bunch of all of [00:03:35] a sudden. Exactly. You got 50% 60% just just out of uh yeah. [00:03:40]

Vinne Attariani: You do get some entries which are like 200 slides, you know, and it’s supposed to be a word count [00:03:45] of about somewhere. 1000 or 1500 word count is supposed to be.

Payman Langroudi: So that that excludes [00:03:50] those ones.

Vinne Attariani: The ones that are really long. Yeah. Because there is there is five sort of sets of [00:03:55] criteria. And you do. If you are not fulfilling even the basic criteria, you’re out. [00:04:00] Which is a shame because some of the entries are absolutely fabulous. But then, to be fair.

Martin Attariani: There.

Vinne Attariani: Has to.

Martin Attariani: Be. [00:04:05]

Vinne Attariani: Fair and consistent.

Martin Attariani: There is.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, there is a grading for each of those. [00:04:10] And you you can’t go outside that really. Because I mean, to be honest, some of the best ones were the [00:04:15] ones that were literally just two sides, and they had supporting evidence for the [00:04:20] points that were sort of asked in the criteria. But they were. So it doesn’t it doesn’t [00:04:25] take, um, you know, a company to have to put your entry together for you. You can literally [00:04:30] do it even if you’re not savvy on the, on, you know, PowerPoints and computers. It’s the content [00:04:35] and it’s the, um, hitting all the criteria basically.

Martin Attariani: And actually standing [00:04:40] out.

Vinne Attariani: Standing out.

Martin Attariani: Doing.

Vinne Attariani: Something different.

Martin Attariani: Your category, you know, you want to be able that [00:04:45] they are actually contributing to, you know, something new within industry and, [00:04:50] uh, doing something unique. So yeah, then it doesn’t matter how [00:04:55] good the presentation is. Uh, as long as they manage to get that, [00:05:00] you know, message through.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So awards are a bit polarising, right? I mean, I know [00:05:05] people who hate them and I know people who love them. Let’s first dispel some myths. Right. [00:05:10] That silly myth that goes around about, uh, it’s a fix.

Vinne Attariani: It’s not a [00:05:15] fix.

Payman Langroudi: Buying the ticket, buying the table at the event.

Vinne Attariani: Because the tickets. The tickets, the. [00:05:20] We’ve decided the winners. The winners are decided. You buy your ticket.

Payman Langroudi: The tickets even start being sold. [00:05:25]

Vinne Attariani: You buy your ticket.

Martin Attariani: I was one of them myself before I got involved. Probably [00:05:30] thought.

Payman Langroudi: Conspiracy.

Martin Attariani: Pay more money and you have the bigger table. You’re gonna. You’re [00:05:35] gonna win.

Vinne Attariani: It’d be closer to the front.

Martin Attariani: And this is before I was involved in any way. Uh, [00:05:40] whereas now I can see how robust the judging is. And, yeah, it [00:05:45] doesn’t matter.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t make any sense from the business perspective for them to fix it. I mean, why would [00:05:50] they.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, no.

Martin Attariani: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: It just makes no sense whatsoever to fix it.

Martin Attariani: And you know, when you [00:05:55] go, there is a group of very respectable [00:06:00] professionals, really, uh, who are there spending a whole day on this? Having [00:06:05] spent probably a few nights even beforehand because we get the entries, uh, [00:06:10] ten days, two weeks before we meet up. So you already spend a lot of time going through the [00:06:15] entries, and then on that day, obviously, you got all these people turning up. So, you [00:06:20] know, people are not going to turn up if something’s fixed, obviously, uh, and put their names to it. [00:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: So let’s put that to one side. Let’s put that to one side. But what about the thing that people say [00:06:30] about the downside of the awards. Do you do you relate to that at all or. No. [00:06:35] You know, should we should we put them out? What would people think about.

Vinne Attariani: What do people.

Payman Langroudi: Think? Well, I mean, there’s there’s one [00:06:40] one aspect that says, you know, if I’m a really great dentist, but I’m [00:06:45] not applying even to be in these awards, the guy down the road applies with a PR company, [00:06:50] and suddenly the guy down the road is called Best Practice London and [00:06:55] yeah. And I’m not right. And that and that misleads the public [00:07:00] is one way of looking at it.

Martin Attariani: You know, that’s kind of that’s kind of life. Look at the bigger shows. [00:07:05] Look at Britain’s Got Talent. Obviously, you know, the hero does [00:07:10] I don’t know the guy who does a magic show on that, uh, program. Uh, [00:07:15] doesn’t mean that he is actually going to be the best magician in the country.

Vinne Attariani: He just. [00:07:20]

Martin Attariani: Put himself.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s the name of the award. That’s that’s the thing. I mean, I can look, I [00:07:25] didn’t really get it until someone turned around to me and said, how would you feel if one of your whitening [00:07:30] competitors was called Best Whitening System in Britain? Yeah. Just because they’d applied. [00:07:35] Yeah. And you hadn’t. And I kind of understood it like anybody.

Martin Attariani: Anything else? I mean everybody can [00:07:40] apply. So, you know, it’s down to you whether you want to do that or not. Um, but on the [00:07:45] flip side of it, you do have practices who actually go out of their way. They start to [00:07:50] improve themselves.

Vinne Attariani: They do some amazing improvements. You know that you did best. [00:07:55]

Martin Attariani: I was going to say improving the most improved practice. And to be honest, I was looking at [00:08:00] how people actually spend money and time to improve their practices. [00:08:05] And deep down I’m thinking, you know what? This is very good for our patients because we are [00:08:10] increasing the standard of dentistry in the UK. So who benefits from [00:08:15] this? Patients, obviously. And I’m all for, for that. Uh, so [00:08:20] you know, I think obviously you can have a look at it from both sides. Uh, [00:08:25] but in reality I think is, is is very good. It does actually, uh, [00:08:30] you know, uh, encourage people to make changes within their practices, [00:08:35] but then obviously it’s going to come down to individual, um, businesses whether [00:08:40] they want to enter or not.

Vinne Attariani: I think the newer wards, like now they have they have best clinical work as well. Right? [00:08:45] Which is I think.

Payman Langroudi: That one’s a bit different.

Vinne Attariani: It’s a bit different. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s Number.

Vinne Attariani: One. That one’s [00:08:50] a bit different. So I think that obviously. Yeah. We’re not assessing. We get photos of the clinical work [00:08:55] right. So obviously dentists are presenting their standards. They go we’ve got x rays and photographs [00:09:00] and testimonials. But yeah you are going by what’s presented in front of you. You’re not [00:09:05] physically in the practice. Um, so I mean, I think the best I [00:09:10] mean, when we won the awards, the main thing, right, is such a morale booster for your for your business [00:09:15] and your practice. It wasn’t I’m not going to say that. Oh, we got loads of new patients from it. No. So [00:09:20] but no I don’t think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard to measure isn’t.

Vinne Attariani: It. It’s hard it’s hard to measure that. But I think for [00:09:25] a team because my team is about 35 people. Our Leamington practice 35. Right. And you think about [00:09:30] how much hard work you put in. You know, everyone is working hard and that’s probably every dental practice. [00:09:35] We as a profession go above and beyond. I think compared to any other profession we [00:09:40] really take to heart, whether our patients are happy, our staff are happy, our business is doing [00:09:45] well. And this is just a little it’s a boost, isn’t it? Is a boost to your morale. Your staff [00:09:50] get energised by oh yeah, we’re doing something great and it just perks up your, [00:09:55] you know, and.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you learn a lot from as judges when you look, look at these applications. [00:10:00] You must get a few good ideas out of them.

Vinne Attariani: But you know, one thing I did, I really noted this [00:10:05] well, more so this year, I think, is that I was just thinking, wow, the standard of everyone’s [00:10:10] practices, like we are all up there. It was very difficult [00:10:15] to give these.

Payman Langroudi: When you think of something, you learned an idea that someone else had put [00:10:20] in place.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah for sure.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of.

Martin Attariani: Things? We’re sitting in a in a good position. They’re going through all this and [00:10:25] thinking, wow, this is really good.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to put that in place.

Martin Attariani: In my.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah. Like what.

Martin Attariani: I think. Uh, [00:10:30] so for example, um, we’ve had um, it was this practice who’ve [00:10:35] been, um, doing uh, quite a lot of they’ve changed the whole [00:10:40] journey for the patient and how the patient comes through the door, how they are [00:10:45] mats from from one they meet uh, a non [00:10:50] dental professional initially uh, and then just a very easily [00:10:55] eased into the whole process and everything, which I thought was it was really good. So it doesn’t have [00:11:00] to be or you booked in with a dentist and you’re just going to go see the dentist straight away. So, [00:11:05] um, you know, for them to be able to see, uh, and interact with the entire team [00:11:10] first initially, um, I think that’s that’s pretty good. Uh, having having [00:11:15] a separate reception area that deals with phone calls. [00:11:20] So you’re not talking in front of patients sitting in the waiting [00:11:25] room. I think that was amazing way of doing it. And and to be honest, that doesn’t [00:11:30] need to be on site. Even you can have staff working from home, but taking [00:11:35] all your calls, which frees up a lot of space for the reception staff as well, [00:11:40] dealing with people face to face. I think that was a very good idea [00:11:45] for any practice really.

Payman Langroudi: There is room for improvement.

[EVERYONE]: And there’s, you know.

Vinne Attariani: There’s lots of things that you see. [00:11:50] I really liked them. Um, there was one practice. They each patient gets an allocated [00:11:55] individual on the patient services team or like reception we call it patient services contact [00:12:00] person. So they’re speaking to the same individual all the time. And you know what.

Payman Langroudi: That is nice. [00:12:05]

Vinne Attariani: That was nice. Like on your file the patient has like this is a dedicated person. So all their questions [00:12:10] all their queries.

Payman Langroudi: A bit like us. We’ve got account managers.

Vinne Attariani: It was really nice. I thought do you know what then you don’t have a he [00:12:15] said she said or something gets missed or someone doesn’t translate the you know, the communication, the conversation [00:12:20] correctly. I thought that’s something that I took away. I thought that definitely want to introduce that.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I [00:12:25] uh, have visited maybe, I don’t know, 500, 1000 dental practices. [00:12:30] Right. I must have by now. And that initial greeting. And [00:12:35] sometimes it’s awful. Yeah. Not even not. I [00:12:40] don’t blame the individual. Even. Yeah. Because I think we’re undermanned in dental practices in general. Yeah, [00:12:45] compared to the size of business that we are compared to that, the number [00:12:50] of people working, um, outside of the clinic clinical setting to [00:12:55] me is a bit low. I mean, sometimes I turn up to a practice and no one even acknowledges me for [00:13:00] for 6 or 7 or eight minutes. Yeah. Now, normally they’re busy. [00:13:05] Yeah. Sometimes no one even looks up from their computer. Busy? Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: Like private. [00:13:10]

Vinne Attariani: Practices.

Payman Langroudi: It could.

[EVERYONE]: Be both. Both? Really?

Payman Langroudi: By the way, the opposite to the opposite [00:13:15] to some practices. I could think of a few. Yeah. That. That someone gets up, opens the door. Doctor [00:13:20] Langroudi, we’ve been expecting you.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, each one of our patients is coming on an [00:13:25] appointment. We know the name of that patient. Yeah. You know, not many businesses have that. Yeah. It’s [00:13:30] the shops and things don’t have that. And then I compare that to when I take my BMW for service. Yeah. [00:13:35] It’s a garage, man. It’s a car garage. But they’ve got the place [00:13:40] I take my car to. They’ve figured it out, man. First of all, my car comes into this super [00:13:45] like. The garage is. So you eat your breakfast off the floor of how beautifully shiny [00:13:50] and clean the garage is. Yeah. And then someone opens the door. Doctor Langroudi, we’ve [00:13:55] been expecting you. We know how that works, right? He’s got my number plate. Yeah, yeah. Take me up. Lovely [00:14:00] coffee. Yeah, it’s a garage. Yeah, yeah, it’s just like you say. Standards in [00:14:05] general are going up, and we need to. As practices.

Martin Attariani: That is crucial. I mean, I always say to my staff, you [00:14:10] are the, the the face of the business. You are the first people that [00:14:15] that patient’s going to to see.

Payman Langroudi: First and last.

[EVERYONE]: Right. It’s super important.

Martin Attariani: It’s extremely [00:14:20] important that, you know, the patient feels welcome as soon as they open the [00:14:25] door and see you guys. That’s more important than seeing me later even, because [00:14:30] that first impression stays with them. With the patient. So, um, I think that [00:14:35] is, you know, something that any practice should, should embrace. Really.

Vinne Attariani: And [00:14:40] again, that’s what makes you different. Right? Because it is it is a competitive business [00:14:45] in some places, right? I mean, practices, I’m sure like in London, for example, [00:14:50] there’s a lot of competition from what I hear. Well, compared to where I am, it’s it’s not [00:14:55] as bad as here. So you having an award or you doing something different or you’re doing some sort [00:15:00] of eco friendly thing or. I don’t know, you do blogs or you do, or you read something [00:15:05] to make you say you’re doing something. You almost have to be doing something a little bit different to [00:15:10] attract the patients, because again, in the day is a we are in healthcare, [00:15:15] but we are a business as well, right?

[EVERYONE]: So and you have to feed your.

Payman Langroudi: Competitive [00:15:20] doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to pick your practice over yours. It’s not necessarily that it’s the [00:15:25] number of people I tell to come and see you. Yeah, the number of word of mouth. I mean. So if you’re not doing [00:15:30] any of this stuff, you might get a one point for word of mouth. If you’re doing all this stuff, maybe you [00:15:35] get a three point for word of mouth and that grows businesses, right?

Vinne Attariani: Word of mouth is is so important. [00:15:40] We do no advertising whatsoever.

[EVERYONE]: I was going to say, I mean.

Martin Attariani: We’re talking about the benefits of [00:15:45] entering awards and everything, but I think end of the day, even if you got six awards [00:15:50] sitting on your, on, on, on, on your windows screen, you know, it’s still going to come down to [00:15:55] your people, your, your service, your you know how good you are with your patients. [00:16:00] I don’t think people are going to choose you only because you won awards. You know, I [00:16:05] know of of corporates who’ve won lots of awards. But, you know, they got empty, um, [00:16:10] practices, um, because, you know, they’re not run efficiently [00:16:15] or people don’t get that personal touch with them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. [00:16:20] Agreed.

Vinne Attariani: Could you could tell from some of the awards there was some that were really basic, but do you know what they felt so warming [00:16:25] like when you read and saw how they because mine was best team and the things that they were [00:16:30] doing for their team, how the principal was like literally going above and beyond the most basic [00:16:35] entry I found like, wow, I want to work there. That’s how I felt when I was judging [00:16:40] it. It’s like I want to be working at that practice.

[EVERYONE]: You must.

Vinne Attariani: Have been.

[EVERYONE]: Approached.

Payman Langroudi: By companies who were willing to [00:16:45] sell you an award, though. Has that happened to you? It happens to us all the time.

Vinne Attariani: Um.

[EVERYONE]: No. [00:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: You pay £499 and you get called.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, I’ve had local, um, [00:16:55] organisations do that. Never, never, never, never entered [00:17:00] into any of that, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: You know what I mean? In a way that also sort of marks, [00:17:05] you know, we’re talking about is it a fix and all of that. You just because there are many awards [00:17:10] you can just purchase. You can just literally purchase a nice, nice Crystal Award. Yeah. Um, [00:17:15] and and you know, I, I don’t I don’t like to be the one to say, oh, I hate awards [00:17:20] because I don’t I think it’s a fun night out and people.

[EVERYONE]: And then it brings.

Vinne Attariani: People together doesn’t it? The [00:17:25] people who like to socialise.

[EVERYONE]: Like 12, 1300 people. How do you feel?

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about [00:17:30] the top 50? Fmc?

Martin Attariani: Well, Vinnie.

[EVERYONE]: Was how do you feel about it? Were [00:17:35] you on 50 for a few years? She was.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, she.

[EVERYONE]: Was a few years.

Vinne Attariani: Not anymore. Now.

[EVERYONE]: Okay.

Vinne Attariani: 29 [00:17:40] 2020 and 21, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Was that peak Vinnie. [00:17:45]

Vinne Attariani: Peak peak peak Vinnie is kind of like, you know, mull down [00:17:50] a bit, but it’s I think I was saying this to you previously as well. I think [00:17:55] people just know that I’m there and I feel like if my position, whatever it might be, [00:18:00] is probably more like mentoring or somebody wanting advice or reaching out to someone, [00:18:05] um, maybe because I’m a female or I’ve done lots in my career [00:18:10] that is not just dentistry focussed. I think people are quite interested in that. [00:18:15] So they they do. I do get asked quite a lot, you know, like on messages and um, [00:18:20] people reaching out like, oh, how did you do this? How did you manage this? Um, you know, I had my kids [00:18:25] at university, so everyone kind of gets really wowed. Like how I think it’s just I see myself more like [00:18:30] a support system for people who want it. And I’m quite happy to talk and give [00:18:35] that support and advice, and I think that’s probably what more people see of me. And then obviously we [00:18:40] used to do a lot of like courses. We used to do some lecturing together. I was doing a lot more a [00:18:45] few years ago.

[EVERYONE]: It used.

Martin Attariani: To be very active.

[EVERYONE]: Back in 2019, 2020. I’m kind of like.

Martin Attariani: Trying to do [00:18:50] well. The amount of webinars we did.

[EVERYONE]: During.

Martin Attariani: Covid and everything, try to contribute as [00:18:55] much as we can really to to the community.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think of top 50?

Martin Attariani: Uh, [00:19:00] to be honest, I don’t know who picks the, um, [00:19:05] top 50 people.

[EVERYONE]: Now.

Payman Langroudi: Fmc picks.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, but I don’t know the the judging [00:19:10] system behind that.

[EVERYONE]: They just.

Martin Attariani: Exactly. So so I’m, I’m, [00:19:15] um, I don’t know if I like the idea, and I don’t know how the selection [00:19:20] criteria is. I mean, compared to the, the, um, well, compared [00:19:25] to, to the judging that we.

[EVERYONE]: Do now, I don’t think.

Vinne Attariani: I’m top 50. I don’t think.

[EVERYONE]: I’m top criteria [00:19:30] and there’s no judging.

Martin Attariani: Panel behind and everything. But I don’t know how top 50 is, is just people just [00:19:35] selecting which obviously I mean you can see it. It’s it’s a selection of people [00:19:40] who are, you know, doing a lot within dentistry and, and make contributions. [00:19:45]

[EVERYONE]: Especially people who are influential in a.

Martin Attariani: Lot of people who do contribute a lot. [00:19:50] And they’ve never been in that list either. So, you know, you see the same people [00:19:55] coming back over and over again.

Payman Langroudi: I was talking I was talking to the guys from FMC, and they were saying that the most difficult [00:20:00] bit of that, that is people who were in it who aren’t in it anymore.

Vinne Attariani: I don’t mind [00:20:05] because.

[EVERYONE]: I.

Vinne Attariani: Think there’s amazing people doing way above what I’ve got to [00:20:10] offer. And I was kind of shocked. I was a little bit kind of, I wouldn’t say embarrassed. I was like, okay, what? [00:20:15] I didn’t realise I was contributing that much because you, you almost [00:20:20] just get used to what you’re doing because you enjoy what you’re doing, right. So you don’t see anything special in it. But [00:20:25] maybe it’s just nice that someone’s acknowledged you wherever you are doing it, providing it’s it’s [00:20:30] appreciated. So from that point of view, I thought, that’s quite nice. But no, [00:20:35] I mean, there’s there’s amazing dentists out there that.

[EVERYONE]: I’m sure.

Martin Attariani: That that, [00:20:40] um, comes from from the dental community. Yeah, I think. [00:20:45]

[EVERYONE]: I.

Vinne Attariani: Think that’s how it was.

[EVERYONE]: Wasn’t it.

Payman Langroudi: Was it was the there was a voting, uh, thing in it, but people.

[EVERYONE]: Were.

Vinne Attariani: Mine. [00:20:50]

[EVERYONE]: Was voted.

Payman Langroudi: People were getting votes coming in from all.

[EVERYONE]: Over the world.

Martin Attariani: Friends and everything. Yeah, [00:20:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your Kilimanjaro expedition. How [00:21:00] did where did it where did the idea come from?

Martin Attariani: So the idea came from my amazing wife.

[EVERYONE]: Really? [00:21:05]

Martin Attariani: So, um.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah. Are you a.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a Trekker in general?

Vinne Attariani: I just [00:21:10] like to. I like to.

[EVERYONE]: Do stuff very sporty. I do like to.

Vinne Attariani: Be kind of. Okay, what can [00:21:15] I do next? I think I was sitting there one day. This was 2016.

[EVERYONE]: 2016. [00:21:20]

Vinne Attariani: 2016. I thought, I want to do something. I want to do something just, you know, crazy, like, I, [00:21:25] I didn’t hike before then. I never I had no idea about it. I was like, I just, you know, [00:21:30] looking at what can I do? What can I also want to do something for charity. So I want to do something for charity, right? [00:21:35] I think we looked at the bridge to aid. Yeah. Um, charity. And [00:21:40] kind of looking through there and I thought, oh, this looks great. This looks fun. Mountain, you know, [00:21:45] go up it, earn some money.

[EVERYONE]: Challenge as well.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, but I probably didn’t have no idea of [00:21:50] what this was going to entail, I’ll be honest. Okay. So I booked it. I was like, right, we’re going to Kilimanjaro. [00:21:55] He’s like Kilimanjaro, like, yeah, I booked us on. We’re going to go in September 2016. And then for some [00:22:00] reason we couldn’t go. Something came up and it got pushed to the following year, which actually [00:22:05] was great because our team was amazing. The people we went up with. So they were just a collection of [00:22:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: Was anyone.

[EVERYONE]: There.

Vinne Attariani: Was no dentists, no, no dentists.

[EVERYONE]: No one.

Martin Attariani: Dentists, but everybody were [00:22:15] doing, uh, for.

[EVERYONE]: Charity as well.

Martin Attariani: So it was all different, uh, from different, um, [00:22:20] walk of life.

Payman Langroudi: And then how hard was it?

Vinne Attariani: It was I found. [00:22:25]

[EVERYONE]: It.

Vinne Attariani: How.

[EVERYONE]: It was hard.

Martin Attariani: Um, it was, I [00:22:30] would.

[EVERYONE]: Say exactly.

Vinne Attariani: The same route we.

[EVERYONE]: Took.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, physically it probably [00:22:35] wasn’t as challenging as as mentally. Oh, the mental challenge. I think [00:22:40] it was. For me at least, it was more. It wasn’t like, you know. [00:22:45]

[EVERYONE]: It.

Vinne Attariani: Wasn’t physical.

Martin Attariani: Steep hiking as.

[EVERYONE]: Such.

Martin Attariani: You know, like.

[EVERYONE]: What.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:22:50] the mental challenge?

Martin Attariani: Um, so initially [00:22:55] you start off and you’re all very energetic and excited about this, but, you know.

[EVERYONE]: How long [00:23:00] does it take? So, um.

Martin Attariani: Five days to get to.

[EVERYONE]: The summit?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. When you [00:23:05] start to get to the, uh, into the camping, uh, situation [00:23:10] and.

[EVERYONE]: There’s no toilets.

Martin Attariani: You start.

[EVERYONE]: There’s no toilets, there’s no toilets.

Martin Attariani: There’s no showers. [00:23:15] And then we start to pass, um, maybe 2500, [00:23:20] 3000, 3000m. Uh, the oxygen level obviously [00:23:25] starts to play tricks on you. And then that’s when you start to feel of of of everything. [00:23:30] Um, and, um, I found that more mentally challenging [00:23:35] than physically because, I mean, every day we were trekking for maybe 6 or [00:23:40] 8 hours, but, you know, it was fun. We had an amazing group. So we were [00:23:45] like singing, chatting, helping each other up. So it was [00:23:50] it was actually we really enjoyed it. But, you know, come night time when you’re sleeping and. [00:23:55]

[EVERYONE]: You’re.

Vinne Attariani: Like minus ten, you know, at night when you’re.

[EVERYONE]: Sleeping.

Vinne Attariani: You slept with your like [00:24:00] literally everything on.

[EVERYONE]: Because it was that.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. Your down jackets, all your gear in [00:24:05] a sleeping bag, gloves on, hat on as well.

[EVERYONE]: So it’s, it’s.

Martin Attariani: Cold.

[EVERYONE]: And [00:24:10] then.

Martin Attariani: You’re not.

[EVERYONE]: Showering. You’re not showering the toilet facilities.

Martin Attariani: All that [00:24:15] mentally drains.

[EVERYONE]: You, really, doesn’t it?

Martin Attariani: So, um.

Vinne Attariani: The altitude. [00:24:20]

[EVERYONE]: And the.

Vinne Attariani: Altitude.

[EVERYONE]: Really got the higher you.

Martin Attariani: Go. Altitude is, is very difficult. [00:24:25]

[EVERYONE]: To.

Martin Attariani: Deal with. And for me was very bad after 4000m. Uh. [00:24:30] Vinny started to have headaches. I had headache, but yours was.

[EVERYONE]: Was [00:24:35] both headache.

Martin Attariani: And nausea and everything.

Payman Langroudi: And along the way, are you seeing just [00:24:40] amazing views?

Vinne Attariani: There’s so much to see. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The. It keeps changing [00:24:45] the higher up you go. So, like, all the the nature, the trees, the type of animals that [00:24:50] you.

[EVERYONE]: Saw, you start from.

Martin Attariani: From down bottom where you’re in the jungle and it’s 20, 30 degrees [00:24:55] of heat enjoying it. And then as you go up it’s just getting colder. Colder. [00:25:00] But the vegetation completely changes as well. You see trees and plants [00:25:05] that you would never.

[EVERYONE]: See.

Vinne Attariani: Down.

[EVERYONE]: Here.

Martin Attariani: Down below. Down, down. Uh, [00:25:10] normal altitude once. Especially once you pass 3000, 3500. [00:25:15] These plants only grow at that altitude. So. And [00:25:20] then. And then after the third day, was.

[EVERYONE]: It third or fourth?

Martin Attariani: You walking above [00:25:25] the clouds?

[EVERYONE]: Oh, that’s So surreal. The clouds are below you. You’re like them, right? [00:25:30] Cloud completely.

Vinne Attariani: Above you.

[EVERYONE]: Underneath you.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve experienced [00:25:35] that in skiing and stuff.

[EVERYONE]: Oh. It’s beautiful.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, but it’s quiet. Okay. Your phones. [00:25:40] There’s no reception. So we were, um.

[EVERYONE]: No Wi-Fi.

Vinne Attariani: Can’t connect with anybody. Okay. So that was a little [00:25:45] bit strange, because with our kids, we’re, you know, we’re calling texting all day long. So for five, [00:25:50] five, six days, we.

[EVERYONE]: Didn’t we.

Vinne Attariani: Out of reach.

[EVERYONE]: Nothing. We didn’t know any news about [00:25:55] the world.

Payman Langroudi: Any hairy moments like danger moments.

Vinne Attariani: Well, they [00:26:00] wanted to send me down. I think I had.

[EVERYONE]: The.

Vinne Attariani: Altitude. It was really bad. They [00:26:05] were almost going.

[EVERYONE]: To force me to go down.

Martin Attariani: Wasn’t.

[EVERYONE]: It? So the very last.

Martin Attariani: Summit night, the last night, which was [00:26:10] probably the most challenging, physically.

[EVERYONE]: Challenging.

Vinne Attariani: Physically challenging, I was going.

[EVERYONE]: To say.

Martin Attariani: Is, is [00:26:15] the summit nights where, uh, you get back to camp around 5 or 6, you got [00:26:20] a few hours to sleep, and then you leave the last camp at 12 at night and [00:26:25] it’s pitch black and it’s minus ten degrees outside. [00:26:30]

Vinne Attariani: Are we cold?

[EVERYONE]: I think.

Martin Attariani: Frozen, maybe.

[EVERYONE]: More.

Martin Attariani: You’re freezing, you’re tired, [00:26:35] and it’s pitch black. You only got torches.

[EVERYONE]: And it’s completely.

Vinne Attariani: Uphill.

[EVERYONE]: Very steep. [00:26:40]

Vinne Attariani: Bit steep. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: And that was mentally and physically challenging. [00:26:45] But then you were just completely.

Vinne Attariani: I completely went I had full on, [00:26:50] um, altitude sickness.

[EVERYONE]: Altitude like textbook altitude sickness.

Vinne Attariani: They probably should have brought [00:26:55] me down, I was gone.

Martin Attariani: We managed to bear. We barely managed to.

[EVERYONE]: Get her, barely [00:27:00] got.

Martin Attariani: To the summit. And I was getting stressed out because I had planned to, [00:27:05] uh, propose to to.

[EVERYONE]: Vinny.

Martin Attariani: At this summit. So that was the. [00:27:10]

[EVERYONE]: Highlight of my trip. So you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Like, keep going.

[EVERYONE]: Keep going. And that’s the only.

Vinne Attariani: Reason they let me go. [00:27:15]

[EVERYONE]: To the top.

Martin Attariani: I already told the guide that, look, I’ve got this plan because [00:27:20] he said.

[EVERYONE]: She needs to go down.

Martin Attariani: Might not be. Well wasn’t my wife at the time, but [00:27:25] she said maybe Vinny might not be able to make it. I said, no, no, no, she has to make it. I’ve got a ring. [00:27:30] I’ve got five days I’ve been trying to hide this ring.

[EVERYONE]: You know, I’ve been moving it from.

Martin Attariani: From, [00:27:35] you know, one part of the back because we had two duffel bags. [00:27:40]

[EVERYONE]: And obviously on the woman. So I’m organising all over my 24 seven.

Martin Attariani: I’m trying to hide this, [00:27:45] this ring that was more challenging than.

[EVERYONE]: Than, you know, I [00:27:50] can.

Martin Attariani: Get manjaro. So I said, no, no, this has to happen.

Payman Langroudi: Is he a romantic? [00:27:55]

Vinne Attariani: Yes.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, yeah he is.

Payman Langroudi: Does he pull lots of romantic stunts? [00:28:00]

Vinne Attariani: He’s done a lot of lot.

[EVERYONE]: Of lot of things. Wow.

Vinne Attariani: Always, constantly. [00:28:05] Always surprises me.

Payman Langroudi: So then were you surprised?

Vinne Attariani: I was shocked. I did not [00:28:10] expect that at all. We got to the top of top six.

[EVERYONE]: 5895m. [00:28:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, but how shocked were you? Like. Like did you.

[EVERYONE]: Not?

Vinne Attariani: Did you not? I was. [00:28:20]

Payman Langroudi: No. No. But did you not expect him to be proposing to you at all?

Vinne Attariani: No, because I.

Payman Langroudi: Think not on [00:28:25] this mountain.

Vinne Attariani: I don’t I didn’t expect because we both had this discussion probably a little [00:28:30] while ago. Anyways, like I said, I don’t want to get married again. Ever. You know, I just that’s it. I’m kind [00:28:35] of done with that whole thing. And you probably also felt the same. [00:28:40] So I was I did not expect it at all. I was completely shocked.

Martin Attariani: I picked [00:28:45] the perfect time because she was completely out of it.

[EVERYONE]: She probably doesn’t even remember my [00:28:50] head.

Martin Attariani: So. And I got a yes. And that was it. Like, you know, I got photos. I got the video. [00:28:55] That’s it. Excellent.

Vinne Attariani: It was all a blur, really. And then.

[EVERYONE]: Within seconds, they. [00:29:00]

Vinne Attariani: They carried me.

[EVERYONE]: Down really.

Martin Attariani: Quickly.

[EVERYONE]: How much.

Payman Langroudi: Money did you raise.

Vinne Attariani: Or. All together? [00:29:05]

Martin Attariani: I raised 5895, which is the height of Kilimanjaro. [00:29:10]

[EVERYONE]: Oh.

Martin Attariani: And you raised about 5 or 6000?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: I was. [00:29:15]

Vinne Attariani: About. It was about 50,000 altogether.

Martin Attariani: The ten of us, we raised £55,000 [00:29:20] for various different charities. So, [00:29:25] you know, it was very rewarding.

[EVERYONE]: It was.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, yeah. It’s nice. And it gives a card every year, which is really [00:29:30] sweet. The bridge. And then we still meet up with our group. We still have get togethers once a year, [00:29:35] all of us. Yeah. So all the good friends now. Friends for life. Really?

[EVERYONE]: But it was it.

Martin Attariani: Was [00:29:40] an amazing experience. I mean, we really recommend.

[EVERYONE]: It to.

Vinne Attariani: 100%.

Martin Attariani: To anyone because. [00:29:45]

[EVERYONE]: It’s.

Payman Langroudi: So what about the.

Martin Attariani: Cost of so the cost of it you pay yourself obviously. [00:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: You paid that yourself and then.

[EVERYONE]: The.

Payman Langroudi: Sponsorship you give to the charity.

[EVERYONE]: Yes.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. So we paid ourselves. [00:29:55] Right. But obviously if that doesn’t work for some people you can use.

[EVERYONE]: Some sponsorship.

Vinne Attariani: Money. [00:30:00]

[EVERYONE]: Yeah you can.

Vinne Attariani: Because for everybody it’s not it’s not easy for everyone right. But I think even just getting [00:30:05] support so you can do something like that, I mean I’ve got some of my staff have gone to Cambodia and they’ve [00:30:10] done all sorts of like charity work out there, but they’ve used their sponsorship to help fund it, otherwise it wouldn’t be in a position [00:30:15] to do it. But they’ve come back like, you know, transformed, eyes opened and seeing [00:30:20] things that they’ve never seen, helping people that you know that need the help. So it’s [00:30:25] really rewarding.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard of effective altruism? Effective altruism? [00:30:30]

[EVERYONE]: No.

Payman Langroudi: No. It’s a bit of a strange. It’s a bit of an interesting concept. Concept? [00:30:35] The concept is like, what’s the goal of let’s let’s say you decide [00:30:40] to go to Cambodia and treat some teeth. Yeah. Yeah. What’s the goal of that? What is the goal of [00:30:45] it? To alleviate pain.

Vinne Attariani: To alleviate pain.

[EVERYONE]: To give us. To give. [00:30:50]

Vinne Attariani: Us. Yeah. To help.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah. Make a.

Martin Attariani: Contribution.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. Um. It’s to give [00:30:55] help, make change. Give something that you. They can’t reach themselves.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:31:00] effective altruism says if that’s the goal.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The best way you can achieve that goal [00:31:05] of getting the maximum number of people out of pain is by staying in Leamington, earning loads [00:31:10] of money and paying people to go out there and and and do it. [00:31:15] And so, you know, so so so well. Well it’s not, it’s not that cool because you [00:31:20] can keep on taking it on and on and on, and the final end game will be just go [00:31:25] become a banker and earn as much money as possible and then give it all away. Right.

[EVERYONE]: I think I’d like to do it myself. [00:31:30] What you said.

Payman Langroudi: About doing it yourself.

Vinne Attariani: Doing it yourself, is.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a there’s a power [00:31:35] in that. Yeah, there’s a power in that.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s a [00:31:40] grounding in that. Yeah. But but what I’m saying is, if the goal is for me [00:31:45] to get out of the world of one millimetre, uh, changes for patients, [00:31:50] cosmetic treatments and see something real. Yeah. Then you’re you’re getting that goal. [00:31:55] But if the goal is to alleviate pain over there.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. No.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very interesting.

Vinne Attariani: Kind of weird. No, [00:32:00] it is interesting because I kind of feel like, you know, you can give to charities and give to charities, but you never really [00:32:05] fully see what happens with it. So I kind of feel like if I was doing it, yeah, it would humble me 100%. [00:32:10] It’s like going to any doing any charity work is humbling because you get to see with your eyes [00:32:15] how somebody else is living right or or appreciate what they’re going through. It makes [00:32:20] you value your life more. Or so there is that.

[EVERYONE]: Personal fulfilment. [00:32:25]

Vinne Attariani: Isn’t there? Is that element and also you’re helping as well. So I agree with what you [00:32:30] say. If you want to alleviate.

[EVERYONE]: Pain, always do both.

Vinne Attariani: Do something.

[EVERYONE]: You could you could do both. Yes.

Martin Attariani: I mean we’ve got charity set [00:32:35] up. You know we do monthly. So and I think that’s just, you know, an [00:32:40] obligation.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard of give directly.

Martin Attariani: But.

Payman Langroudi: Give give directly. It’s [00:32:45] about not charities going out anywhere giving cash [00:32:50] directly to to people. Yeah. Yeah. And the the idea is if let’s let’s say there’s someone [00:32:55] in where, where did you say Colombia. No.

Vinne Attariani: Cambodia.

Payman Langroudi: Cambodia. Let’s say there’s a, there’s a guy in Cambodia [00:33:00] who needs help. Yeah, yeah. One way is I pay Oxfam. Oxfam [00:33:05] goes out there and helps him. Yeah. Another way is I go and myself go [00:33:10] and help out through Oxfam or whatever. It turns out if I give $500 [00:33:15] to him. Yeah. Directly. Yeah, the benefit to him is way, way, way more. [00:33:20]

Martin Attariani: Than.

Payman Langroudi: If we send a couple of doctors out who get paid by [00:33:25] Oxfam. Right. And the amount of wastage that happens. Yeah. It’s a very interesting idea.

Martin Attariani: The middlemen, [00:33:30] don’t you. And all.

[EVERYONE]: The.

Martin Attariani: Expenses. It’s just finding that contact though, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: But the idea is he [00:33:35] knows where best to spend the £500. Yeah. $500? Yeah, yeah. He’s [00:33:40] got specific needs. Right. He might need to, I don’t know, buy a generator or send his kid to [00:33:45] school or whatever it is. Whereas the charity just does a sort of a thing that they figure out that isn’t [00:33:50] doesn’t help him as much.

Martin Attariani: What would you do that? Through my family on [00:33:55] my dad’s got contacts in Iran. And then what we’d do there is that we give it directly [00:34:00] to people who we know. Yeah. Uh, are helping people directly. So, [00:34:05] um, um, we’ve got a charity who helps people who want to get married, but [00:34:10] they don’t have money to start a life together as a couple. Um, [00:34:15] but again, it’s just having that contact.

[EVERYONE]: It’s knowing someone.

Martin Attariani: That that money.

[EVERYONE]: Is. [00:34:20]

Martin Attariani: Actually go going to go to to to to the right.

Payman Langroudi: Do you ever give money to someone on [00:34:25] the street?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you?

Martin Attariani: Yeah we. [00:34:30]

[EVERYONE]: Do.

Payman Langroudi: I do. Yeah, but but but there was a time where we were, [00:34:35] uh, during Covid, our hotel. Um, everyone shut all the hotels except [00:34:40] this one hotel. Yeah. And they. And then we managed to get our courses to keep going because, hey, we’re [00:34:45] training doctors and dentists. Okay. And so we ended up by the Mayfair Hotel. Yes. [00:34:50] You know it? Yeah. So we had, I think, ten of our courses, one after the other at the Mayfair [00:34:55] Hotel and at the Mayfair Hotel. Once you’ve done it ten times, you see [00:35:00] ten times the same people covering the same patches.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. [00:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah. And I remember, actually, I lost a lot of innocence around [00:35:10] this subject here because I was happily giving money to anyone in the street that [00:35:15] I don’t know. Maybe it was an eye contact or whatever it was. I even used to think some of these guys [00:35:20] may be just the charlatans here, but I’m happy to give to a couple of charlatans if it means [00:35:25] the others get money. But in that, in that 1010 course thing [00:35:30] I realised around the Mayfair Hotel, it’s a massive organised crime business.

Martin Attariani: They [00:35:35] put up tents and everything.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean.

[EVERYONE]: A massive.

Payman Langroudi: Organised crime business. Yeah. It’s [00:35:40] jaded me a little bit, you know, in a weird way. Um, now, now I’m giving gifts on [00:35:45] TikTok. Yeah. Giving a little dopamine rush. Giving this sort of £0.63 to some [00:35:50] poor guy sitting in a camp in Syria. Yeah. Probably many of them are taking [00:35:55] my money and, you know. Yeah. It’s like.

Vinne Attariani: A thing. It’s like any anything, there’s always going [00:36:00] to be someone who abuses the system.

[EVERYONE]: We had.

Martin Attariani: That in Turkey, didn’t we, when we were in Turkey last year.

Payman Langroudi: Together. [00:36:05]

[EVERYONE]: Yeah. Where are you? What happened?

Martin Attariani: And and and, uh, I came out of, uh, our hotel, [00:36:10] and it was this, uh, lady, quite young.

[EVERYONE]: Sitting with.

Vinne Attariani: The.

[EVERYONE]: Baby.

Martin Attariani: I [00:36:15] mean, the baby was only maybe two years old, and she was going through the garbage [00:36:20] bag, the bin bag, and she was taking out.

[EVERYONE]: Breads. [00:36:25]

Martin Attariani: And bread and.

[EVERYONE]: Food.

Martin Attariani: And cleaning them, putting to one side and oh my [00:36:30] God, it broke my.

[EVERYONE]: Heart.

Martin Attariani: It broke my heart. And I came [00:36:35] up, I said to Vinnie, we have to go down and help these, this, this, [00:36:40] this. Um. Mom. And we did. We. I don’t like [00:36:45] giving money if I can give food, uh, instead. [00:36:50] So that’s what we did. We took them to a grocery shop just around the corner. And then [00:36:55] before we know it, it was another a girl and a boy who came up to [00:37:00] us as well. And they they wanted help. So we started buying groceries for them, [00:37:05] and, uh, and and, um, they after we [00:37:10] were telling the, um, one of the staff in the hotel that [00:37:15] this is, you know, it’s for us. It’s very heartbreaking to see, you know, scenes like [00:37:20] that and it’s like, oh, these these are, you know, it’s very common here. They’re all part of Mafia. [00:37:25] And, you know, I was like.

[EVERYONE]: Because.

Vinne Attariani: I got warning signs when we were in the store because she goes, [00:37:30] we’ll have that, we’ll have that, we’ll have that.

[EVERYONE]: It was literally she knew.

Vinne Attariani: And the guy in the shop, I think he knew her as [00:37:35] well. They they cleaned up the shelves. You know, there.

[EVERYONE]: Were.

Vinne Attariani: Bags.

[EVERYONE]: Of.

Vinne Attariani: Food.

Payman Langroudi: I read an article [00:37:40] when a lady was walking past someone with a baby. Yeah. Every day [00:37:45] as she was going to work. And, um, she said every day for 200 days in [00:37:50] a row, the baby was asleep, and she thought to herself, well, how can that be? How can the baby always [00:37:55] be asleep? Right? Started looking into it. And the it turns out [00:38:00] the baby isn’t the baby of the the beggar and the baby’s drugged to [00:38:05] sleep. You know, so they can just hold it. Hold it there. And. But what I’m saying, [00:38:10] it’s such a shame.

[EVERYONE]: It breaks.

Martin Attariani: Your heart.

[EVERYONE]: Doesn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: But no. It’s such a shame that it jades you from [00:38:15] giving.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, because now. Now, every time I’m thinking of giving to someone, I’m thinking. [00:38:20] Oh, God. Is. Is that money? Is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Is it genuine or not?

Payman Langroudi: Is it [00:38:25] genuine or not? Exactly.

[EVERYONE]: Absolutely.

Vinne Attariani: We were in the car earlier today, and there was a chap by the lights, and I put the [00:38:30] window up because we just had an incident like about a month ago, right in London. And I’m [00:38:35] like super like, just keep the windows closed. I’m not letting don’t let anyone approach us. Don’t [00:38:40] go to anyone. Don’t.

[EVERYONE]: And that could have.

Martin Attariani: Been a genuine.

[EVERYONE]: Person. But it was a genuine person doesn’t it.

Vinne Attariani: Doesn’t [00:38:45] get help because obviously what we’ve had happened to us before. I think having a [00:38:50] charity just makes you feel safer because you feel there’s like a middle man. But then even then, you just you don’t know where your money’s [00:38:55] going or how it’s being distributed. Right? That’s why I feel like if I go, I would like to go [00:39:00] somewhere to help, because I feel like that gives you a bit of a sense of, you know, of just, again, [00:39:05] humbling and helping others. And also, you get to see that you’re actually doing something physically [00:39:10] right. And if you want to give money, you’re giving it to the places where you.

[EVERYONE]: I mean, the intention.

Martin Attariani: Has.

[EVERYONE]: To be the [00:39:15] end of the day.

Martin Attariani: The intention is good. And then.

[EVERYONE]: I think as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: You can always do that with your own [00:39:20] patients as well, right? If there’s a patient who genuinely can’t afford something.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, well I’ve done that before. [00:39:25]

[EVERYONE]: You know what?

Martin Attariani: We’ve done that many times.

Vinne Attariani: Quite a.

[EVERYONE]: Few times.

Vinne Attariani: We’re even, like considering in our practice, [00:39:30] like we’re having, like, discussions of arranging a day where anybody can come for [00:39:35] healthcare.

[EVERYONE]: Like.

Vinne Attariani: So. So just, you know, if you can’t find dentists, you got pain. Just come see us. [00:39:40] And that’s something that we’re organising at both the practices.

[EVERYONE]: I think as a profession I [00:39:45] think yeah we are.

Payman Langroudi: It’s incumbent.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah I think you can any, any, any [00:39:50] dental practice can afford.

[EVERYONE]: To open one.

Vinne Attariani: One day I don’t.

[EVERYONE]: Know.

Vinne Attariani: Every six months or something [00:39:55] or even, even if you did it once a year and just literally said, look, anybody come if you [00:40:00] need help and you haven’t got dentists not registered, we’ll help you out and just get people out of pain, you [00:40:05] know, just there and then I think that’s huge. You know, is this about giving [00:40:10] back, isn’t it?

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We went out for dinner once, and [00:40:15] the after dinner entertainment was Martin doing [00:40:20] magic tricks.

[EVERYONE]: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: And not just silly [00:40:25] magic tricks. Like super impressive crazy magic tricks and crazy. [00:40:30] Like, I remember just my jaw dropping. How the hell did he do that? When did [00:40:35] that start? When did this magic dentist stuff start? Is it something from your childhood? [00:40:40]

Martin Attariani: It probably started. I mean, I’ve always been very inquisitive type of person. [00:40:45] I always wanted to know.

[EVERYONE]: How.

Payman Langroudi: People do.

[EVERYONE]: Things.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, how things are made. [00:40:50] And, you know, uh, probably since I was about 13 or [00:40:55] 14, I was just very intrigued by magic, the unknown and, [00:41:00] uh, and, uh, I always wanted to know how things work and, you know, how [00:41:05] things become magic. So it probably started when I was 14 and I [00:41:10] had that community. There was a magician, uh, I [00:41:15] started to pester this guy, bless him. Still in touch with him, but I started to pester him. [00:41:20] No, you have to teach me and teach me. This is in Sweden. Yeah. And, uh, it started [00:41:25] with him. Uh, he started to to teach me, uh, you know, magic tricks [00:41:30] and, um, uh, uh, start to get into [00:41:35] it more and more and start to pay and buy more magic tricks. And and [00:41:40] that’s how it started off. Uh, um, throughout my life, it’s always been [00:41:45] there. Uh, at one point, I was doing it professionally. I was performing on stage. I [00:41:50] had big illusions, I had assistants.

[EVERYONE]: You’re kidding. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. You know, so, you [00:41:55] know.

[EVERYONE]: Even no wonder.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff.

Martin Attariani: No, no, uh, I did that [00:42:00] for many years because I, um. So around that time I started to play drums as well. So I was [00:42:05] in a music band, and, uh, it just happened to be that, you know, [00:42:10] I would, uh, for, uh, you know, when we went for gigs and everything, I would do [00:42:15] magic show in between the breaks. So, you know, extra money [00:42:20] coming in, and, uh, I was studying at the same time as well. So, [00:42:25] you know, any extra cash would obviously was always welcome. And that’s just, you [00:42:30] know, I just managed to carry that, uh, on throughout my, my life. Really. Um, [00:42:35] and, uh.

[EVERYONE]: It’s just now.

Martin Attariani: Amazing hobbies.

Payman Langroudi: How does it manifest now?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. [00:42:40] So. So now, obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Except for dinner with me.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: That’s probably not Friday.

Vinne Attariani: Nights [00:42:45] with.

[EVERYONE]: Me.

Martin Attariani: I mean, I still keep it going, you know, with friends and family and [00:42:50] all that, and, uh. Uh, what what happened? The recent events [00:42:55] that happened, uh, probably last year was that, uh, I came [00:43:00] in contact with, uh, Somebody called, [00:43:05] um, uh, Nicky Rowland. Um, and, um, she, [00:43:10] um, wrote a book, um, called The Magic Dentist, [00:43:15] and her daughter did all the illustrations and, [00:43:20] um, uh, a really nice book, uh, for children, obviously, uh, promoting [00:43:25] dental health and oral health. And, uh, I came [00:43:30] in touch with her through a Facebook post. Uh, she was looking for [00:43:35] dentists and magicians who could help with her campaign. Um, [00:43:40] uh, which which is promoting, uh, oral health and oral care to [00:43:45] to children. Okay. And I called her up and I said, well, [00:43:50] guess what? I’m a dentist and I’m a magician. So, um, [00:43:55] that’s how we started off. And, uh, we’ve been doing some events together. Uh, [00:44:00] we worked on a, um, an education material, [00:44:05] um, again, promoting and teaching oral care to dentists, [00:44:10] which we are trying to get sent to all the schools, um, around, [00:44:15] around UK. Um, and um, it’s we’re [00:44:20] trying to encourage other dentists or dental professionals to get [00:44:25] involved, uh, whether they do magic themselves, um, or whether [00:44:30] they get involved with magicians, um, local to their area [00:44:35] and visit, uh, the schools, the, uh, local schools [00:44:40] and promote oral, oral health.

Payman Langroudi: So if you come across other dentists who are magicians because I know [00:44:45] one.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Ju.

Martin Attariani: Ash.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Ash. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I know two. You [00:44:50] know, I know two. There’s one that came on mini smile makeover as well. Okay. Yeah. [00:44:55]

Martin Attariani: Ash does magic as well. Um, he’s he’s involved in the magic dentist. Uh, [00:45:00] so it’s a great campaign. And, uh, I’ve been I’ve [00:45:05] been doing school visits since I bought my practice in 2008. So I [00:45:10] think educating our younger generation and and their parents [00:45:15] is paramount in what we do. I mean, it’s not about, you know, repairing [00:45:20] damages. It’s it’s about prevention, obviously. And I think that [00:45:25] is something that is we need to invest more on in this country. [00:45:30] Educating the younger generation.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Like bugbear on this subject, here [00:45:35] is we manage as a profession. Yeah. Haven’t managed to get out [00:45:40] the frequency of sugar being [00:45:45] people. Everyone. If you ask anyone, they say, yeah, brush your teeth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don’t eat sweets. [00:45:50] Yeah. But the frequency point. Exactly. We haven’t managed to get out.

Martin Attariani: Exactly.

[EVERYONE]: That’s what I’m saying. [00:45:55]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s mad that.

Vinne Attariani: We talk about it or talk about it.

[EVERYONE]: We talk about all the time. Profession? Yeah. [00:46:00] I’m saying that’s what I’m saying.

Martin Attariani: We’re failing in that, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, if you go out in the street and ask 100 people. [00:46:05] Yeah. Very few. Well, maybe, I reckon 98% will know. Don’t [00:46:10] eat sugar and brush your teeth. Yeah, but the frequency of sugar, like, not the amounts, [00:46:15] right. That we didn’t manage to get out as a as a as a profession. It’s mad.

Martin Attariani: You know, I think I [00:46:20] think, uh, a big chunk of [00:46:25] the NHS fund should go towards educating the, the wider [00:46:30] public. You know, we should have adverts on, on, on TV and [00:46:35] newspapers everywhere. Uh, about the easiest [00:46:40] thing, like you said, just cutting down the frequency, which is the key. You know, [00:46:45] we haven’t managed to to.

[EVERYONE]: Because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: You told my daughter.

[EVERYONE]: Don’t eat sweets.

Vinne Attariani: It’s not going [00:46:50] to happen.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not going to happen.

[EVERYONE]: No.

Payman Langroudi: She’s going to want her cake or whatever she wants. Yeah. You explain to [00:46:55] her. Listen, have your cake once a day. Yeah. Instead of a tiny thing every half [00:47:00] hour. Exactly. Yeah, that would make a difference in frequency.

[EVERYONE]: It’s mad.

Vinne Attariani: That is part of our. [00:47:05] That is part of our education when we talk to our patients. Every patient gets that.

Martin Attariani: Even [00:47:10] the school, we’ve done school visits together.

[EVERYONE]: As.

Martin Attariani: Well, haven’t we? And even there it’s [00:47:15] always an eye opener to to even the teachers sitting and listening, [00:47:20] uh, thinking, you know, even to them, it’s it’s it’s news.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah. [00:47:25]

Vinne Attariani: And it’s a wider it needs to be on a wider scale. Doesn’t like you said NHS TV.

[EVERYONE]: I think even [00:47:30] diet.

Payman Langroudi: Itself isn’t as as prominent in people’s heads as brushing.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah, [00:47:35] absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: People think brushing is the key.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But diet’s the.

[EVERYONE]: Key. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Right. And [00:47:40] we didn’t manage really to get that story out properly either as a profession, which is crazy [00:47:45] when you think about the, the billions that are spent, as you say, on dentistry. [00:47:50] The key thing, this preventable disease, we’re not getting that message out properly.

[EVERYONE]: Exactly. [00:47:55]

Martin Attariani: And when you.

[EVERYONE]: See.

Martin Attariani: When you read in the news, how many is [00:48:00] 10,000? 14,000. Uh, thousands of of, [00:48:05] um, uh, dental extractions that are carried out on children under [00:48:10] GA.

Payman Langroudi: The most common cause of GA for children.

Martin Attariani: It’s it’s heartbreaking. It’s [00:48:15] absolutely heartbreaking. I think that is our duty as.

[EVERYONE]: A as a profession. [00:48:20]

Payman Langroudi: In Sweden, they’ve got this right.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, absolutely. Got it right. Many years ago. [00:48:25] Yeah. Probably 20 or 30 years ago. That’s why the oral hygiene is, is [00:48:30] is very good over there. People are very educated in you know, we have [00:48:35] something that which is something that I’ve been trying to promote here in Sweden. We’ve got something [00:48:40] called Saturday candy.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a candy.

[EVERYONE]: Yes. Sweet.

Martin Attariani: Saturday. [00:48:45] Sweets. Saturday. Pick and mix. And if you go to the shops, the signs [00:48:50] say, say, say. Or can say Saturday. Uh, goodies. [00:48:55] Gordis let us go this which is Saturday Suites basically. So [00:49:00] parents are already informed and educated. [00:49:05]

Payman Langroudi: Encouraged.

Martin Attariani: In in in trying to cut down on the amount of sugar [00:49:10] that children have throughout the week. So Saturday is is a good day. It’s a family [00:49:15] day. Have your sweets, have your.

[EVERYONE]: Whatever.

Martin Attariani: During the week, you know, try to cut [00:49:20] down on that frequency. Um, so fluoride is very big in Sweden. We’ve [00:49:25] got fluoride tablets.

[EVERYONE]: We’ve got supplements.

Vinne Attariani: There. Right. Because I’ve got.

[EVERYONE]: Patients from.

Vinne Attariani: Scandinavia, they’re like.

[EVERYONE]: Oh yeah, you [00:49:30] can have my supplements, you can buy fluoride tablets.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: So you [00:49:35] know, we’ve got we managed to get that message through many, many years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Canada [00:49:40] took the fluoride fluoride.

[EVERYONE]: Trays.

Vinne Attariani: Every, every time.

[EVERYONE]: When the dentist.

Vinne Attariani: You had fluoride tray [00:49:45] treatment in the back.

Payman Langroudi: We have a hygienist used to work for us. She was a Canadian hygienist and she used to say [00:49:50] fluoride and bleaching. Yeah. Um, are gigantic parts of the The hygienist repertoire [00:49:55] in Canada, but not here at all in Sweden.

Martin Attariani: Every [00:50:00] hygiene session is finished by fluoride. Application.

Payman Langroudi: Routinely. [00:50:05]

Martin Attariani: Routinely.

[EVERYONE]: Really?

Martin Attariani: Routinely. I was shocked [00:50:10] when I came here. I was like, what? No fluoride after. And then. And then you see, you hear from patients [00:50:15] saying, you know, reporting how sensitive the teeth are after they had a hygiene session [00:50:20] because they’re not getting fluoride.

Payman Langroudi: Well, are you aware of fluoride is getting a bit [00:50:25] of a bad name now? Are you aware of that?

Martin Attariani: Of course there is. I mean, I’ve got patients [00:50:30] who don’t even.

Payman Langroudi: Use.

Martin Attariani: Fluoride toothpaste.

Payman Langroudi: Even amongst dentists, like, there are some [00:50:35] dentists saying now, um, that why risk fluoride when you have hydroxyapatite? [00:50:40] Um, and it’s a funny thing, you know, because we did [00:50:45] a hydroxyapatite toothpaste 14 years ago when we were formulating. [00:50:50] We couldn’t. It was very difficult to put this out with fluoride in [00:50:55] it because, you know, fluoride, fluoride binds to hydroxyapatite. You get fluorapatite, right? You [00:51:00] don’t. That’s how it protects your teeth. But you can’t have fluorapatite in the tube. Yeah. [00:51:05] Applying fluorapatite to your teeth isn’t the same as applying fluoride or hydroxyapatite. [00:51:10] And we knew this and we went. I had to jump through so many hurdles [00:51:15] because we had to put fluoride in it, because without fluoride in it, no dentist would buy it from us. [00:51:20] Yeah. And in the end, I think we put out a worse product because of it. Yeah. [00:51:25] Because, you know, it’s bound. We used a nano form of hydroxyapatite [00:51:30] that doesn’t bind to the form of fluoride that we put in it. But, you know, it became a much more expensive [00:51:35] product and much less effective product because we had to put fluoride in it. Yeah. Now [00:51:40] there’s this conversation around hydroxyapatite. Of course, people are trying to say they [00:51:45] want things, not the things they don’t want. Yeah. So they don’t want SLS. Uh, [00:51:50] sodium lauryl Sulphate. They don’t want parabens. They don’t want fluoride. [00:51:55] It’s become very common and interesting thing. One of the ladies who works here, she [00:52:00] told me, my son, I put him one day, fluoride toothpaste one day, not fluoride toothpaste [00:52:05] because I’m a bit worried. And I said to her, well, that’s, that’s that’s huge. You’re halving [00:52:10] his fluoride. Yeah. And she’s like, yeah, I’m a bit worried. And I thought this really interesting idea of like, [00:52:15] if I don’t want fluoride, what’s the best toothpaste. Yeah. And [00:52:20] it’s a dangerous conversation almost for a dentist to have. Yeah. Um. Uh goolnik [00:52:25] put something out and, and someone else said, oh, I’m really sad that the [00:52:30] dentist is saying this, and it’s become like a it’s a funny moment regarding fluoride. [00:52:35]

Martin Attariani: I think you just have to go by the evidence out there, obviously [00:52:40] the science behind it and everything. And, you know, not until things are proven, uh, [00:52:45] you know, um, concretely, um, [00:52:50] I think, you know, the general, uh, conception is going to be, you know, fluoride [00:52:55] is good for prevention, so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but there’s, you know, there’s some, you know, you can find evidence, whatever you want to find it. Right? Because [00:53:00] there’s this there’s this evidence about how fluoride is affecting kids. Yeah. Learning [00:53:05] and so forth. You know, whether whether we believe it or not. Yeah. It’s always been this fraught thing, [00:53:10] hasn’t it.

[EVERYONE]: No.

Martin Attariani: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about what plans you two have together as [00:53:15] far as business.

Vinne Attariani: Um, well, our plan [00:53:20] at the moment, we’ve got the two practices, Leamington and in Brackley, and [00:53:25] we’re both working there independently, which, um, is working for now, [00:53:30] but they ultimately want to do something together. So the aim is to do some [00:53:35] sort of business venture, whether it’s Dental or not. Dental uh, together, not [00:53:40] Dental it could be not not Dental entirely. Um, I [00:53:45] quite like the idea of Something a bit more, [00:53:50] uh, holistic or whole body centred as opposed to just being teeth. That’s [00:53:55] something that I quite, um, I’m quite interested in. So, you know, I’ve done dentistry [00:54:00] for 24 years. Love it, enjoy it. But I’m thinking just to go a bit wider [00:54:05] than just teeth. So I don’t want to say exactly, exactly [00:54:10] what just yet, but that’s that’s kind of where.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely a trend [00:54:15] I’m seeing more of. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Just because it’s like it’s again, like you said, like, okay, we can treat the teeth, but [00:54:20] then we’re not teaching or maybe don’t have the time. Private practices. You do have a bit more time [00:54:25] to educate your patients, but um, about okay frequency. How does your diet affect, [00:54:30] you know, your teeth? How does your lifestyle affect your teeth? How is your sleep [00:54:35] pattern affecting your teeth? How so looking at the body as a unit as opposed [00:54:40] to just the teeth. And that’s something I’m quite interested in. You’re you know, you [00:54:45] you’ve got some different viewpoints. But I think have.

Payman Langroudi: You looked at oral microbiome testing at.

Vinne Attariani: All? Just. Yeah. [00:54:50] So, like, you know, like, um, gene testing. Look at microbes do it. [00:54:55] I sort of feel like there’s so much more than just the teeth. You know, there’s [00:55:00] so much more information that feeds into your health, which then obviously you get results. [00:55:05]

[EVERYONE]: You forget.

Martin Attariani: That it’s actually part of.

[EVERYONE]: The. Yeah, it’s part.

Vinne Attariani: Of because we look, we’re so zoned in like it’s just. [00:55:10]

[EVERYONE]: Your.

Vinne Attariani: Diet.

[EVERYONE]: But then, yeah.

Vinne Attariani: You know, why are people eating that way? What are they healthy. [00:55:15] Are they. What’s their lifestyle like? What is their stress like. What are their sleep patterns like? I think [00:55:20] it’s, um, it’s more about the whole package.

Payman Langroudi: Look where where.

[EVERYONE]: You may. [00:55:25]

Vinne Attariani: Be.

Payman Langroudi: Like definitely onto something is that there’s not many places [00:55:30] where it’s, I think half the population. And it’s sad in Britain is only half the population, [00:55:35] but half the population visit twice a year. Yeah, yeah. [00:55:40] There’s not many things like that. Half the population don’t visit twice a year, their GP. Yeah. Or [00:55:45] any other thing.

Vinne Attariani: But people want to know. Do I have a problem?

Payman Langroudi: They’re coming. They’re [00:55:50] coming twice a year. Yeah. Super interesting. Okay. Do the dental exam. But now this, [00:55:55] that and the other. Now, whatever your idea is this, that or the other. Um, [00:56:00] it’s an interesting thing because you’ve got people coming in so often. Let’s [00:56:05] say there’s a I mean, I saw a machine. I was quite interested in the idea. Um, it was oral, [00:56:10] but they put it in the, um, like a piece of blotting [00:56:15] paper into the pocket of either an implant or [00:56:20] a tooth. Stick it into the machine and it comes out with a number for collagen [00:56:25] breakdown. Yeah. And the claim was six months before, uh, peri [00:56:30] implantitis. That number starts moving. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is, let’s [00:56:35] imagine that was a routine thing that you would do in your oral, wonderful, holistic [00:56:40] centre. Now, every six months we’re seeing early warning system of that. That’s just [00:56:45] one example. It could be anything.

Vinne Attariani: It could be anything.

Payman Langroudi: It could be any. Any aspect of. Of [00:56:50] wellbeing.

Vinne Attariani: That’s why I think we’re very much into like wellbeing and, you [00:56:55] know, self-care and prevention. You know, I’ve got patients who will not miss their six month [00:57:00] check-up. Like I’m going to see Vinnie. There’s no way, you know, you can cancel me because they are like clockwork [00:57:05] every six months. They want to know is, am I starting to get a problem? If I am, how can I fix it? What [00:57:10] can you do? What do I need to change? So you want to apply that to your whole health, [00:57:15] not just your teeth, right? Try making an appointment with your GP every six months for a health check. It’s [00:57:20] one is not going to happen on the NHS privately. Yeah. There there there is [00:57:25] you know scope for something like that. I’m, I’m probably because I’m approaching that age now I think [00:57:30] I wonder how everything’s working in my body. So if I need to make changes, I want to start making them now. [00:57:35] I don’t want to wait till I’m ill or I have to take medication, you know? So I think that’s [00:57:40] that’s a concept there. I think that can that were.

[EVERYONE]: You.

Payman Langroudi: Attracted to that sort of whole body MRI [00:57:45] scan.

Vinne Attariani: Um, I don’t I’m not that far yet. [00:57:50] I think, I mean, what’s the what’s the story with that then?

Payman Langroudi: So you go in, they scan, you. [00:57:55]

Vinne Attariani: Scan everything.

Payman Langroudi: And.

[EVERYONE]: Then.

Payman Langroudi: It goes further, actually. They do all the cancer [00:58:00] markers.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, blood tests with, like, I don’t know, I think it’s 60 [00:58:05] things. They’re looking.

[EVERYONE]: For everything.

Payman Langroudi: And, um. But my brother’s a radiologist, and he said, look, if you have a MRI, [00:58:10] all three of us will show something that could be just something slightly [00:58:15] away from the norm. He’s like, what are you going to do? Are you going to go and have do an operation on that thing? Yeah. [00:58:20] You know, you can bring up issues that actually weren’t going to be a problem.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: That’s a [00:58:25] problem. That’s that’s a problem with it. The more you know, the more you kind.

Martin Attariani: Of worry about [00:58:30] it. I think to some extent you just have to like, you know, live your life.

[EVERYONE]: And trust [00:58:35] the process.

Vinne Attariani: As.

[EVERYONE]: There is, you know.

Martin Attariani: Leave.

[EVERYONE]: The unknown.

Martin Attariani: To the unknown.

Vinne Attariani: But I mean, like, just simple [00:58:40] things like weight and, you know, sleeping patterns is such a big thing. And fitness [00:58:45] Dental health. What you’re eating, what you’re drinking? Are you smoking? You’re not smoking habits and [00:58:50] even like community things are you like integrating, doing things with community because that gives you wellbeing [00:58:55] factor as well. So some people are still like in their little shell after Covid, they [00:59:00] probably still got patients who still sweat leaving the house because they’re worried they’re going to catch Covid. It makes [00:59:05] me really sad. One patient, she comes like she’s the first patient of the day. She gets there like 15 [00:59:10] minutes earlier. She’s sitting on her own in the waiting room. She can’t be around people and I’ve seen her go like downhill. [00:59:15] I’ve been seeing her for 12 years and she’s so withdrawn. And you get upset [00:59:20] when you see that. So there are probably a lot of people like that who just don’t reach out, right? [00:59:25] You just don’t know of them because you don’t see them. So I think the whole I think looking at [00:59:30] everything, that’s what I’m interested in. So yeah, that’s what I want.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:59:35] you planned to do this or not yet?

[EVERYONE]: We’ve been talking about it.

Martin Attariani: And, uh, you [00:59:40] know, I think it’s a great idea. A very different, different approach. [00:59:45] Uh, so, uh, we got, you know, plans [00:59:50] to hopefully materialise that at some point in the future. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just, you know, sometimes [00:59:55] when it’s a new thing, it’s, um, you know, like you said. Oh, you [01:00:00] got to have your point of difference. Yeah. And you make a mistake sometimes where [01:00:05] you try and invent something completely new, and then it’s difficult to describe [01:00:10] it. Yeah. And then let’s say I give you a limited marketing budget. [01:00:15] Yeah. And your budget can’t describe what? Because people don’t know what this [01:00:20] thing is. You know, a bit like Ronan was telling me with the, um, toothpaste tabs. Yeah. [01:00:25] It’s a it’s a habit of a lifetime. Brushing your teeth with toothpaste? Yeah. You try and change that something. [01:00:30] Um. And so my my, the general point I’m making is [01:00:35] you don’t always have to completely reinvent the wheel to to make a successful [01:00:40] or a thing that makes you happy in a way. Like if you think of it like [01:00:45] a restaurant. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be a completely new concept. It [01:00:50] just has to be a better restaurant. Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: You know, I’m not thinking of.

Vinne Attariani: Doing, like, a massive.

[EVERYONE]: Chain.

Vinne Attariani: And [01:00:55] take over the world, but, like, when my patients come in, sometimes we’ll do it. We’ll have a 20 minute appointment. [01:01:00] And the last thing they want to talk about is teeth. They want to tell me about their skin problems. They want to tell me about. [01:01:05] Oh, you know, I don’t know the game pains they give you.

[EVERYONE]: They give you pains [01:01:10] and.

Vinne Attariani: Health issues of everything else. And then you’re doing a bit of psychology talking with them. So I’ve gone on the internet to [01:01:15] search something with them, you know, side by side. So the patients, they trust you, [01:01:20] right. Having a dentist that you’re happy to see every six months, there’s so much trust in that, [01:01:25] you know, they really trust what you say. And it could be about anything, you know, not just [01:01:30] the teeth, because they you’re in a really strong position.

[EVERYONE]: Their position. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. So [01:01:35] if you can help them like I quite enjoy talking about okay. I don’t know They start a new drug [01:01:40] and they gained this sort of interaction. I’m not playing medical, but I do like help them. Kind of like break [01:01:45] it down, digest what’s happening and give them little tips and help them look up, you [01:01:50] know, things that they’re probably not thinking of or they get. I get spoken to about [01:01:55] all sorts of things, you know, and I think that’s nice to tap into that somehow. Yeah, it keeps [01:02:00] me. I get interested by it. I feel like I’m venturing out a.

[EVERYONE]: Little bit more than just [01:02:05] more meaningful, more personal.

Vinne Attariani: It’s more personal then. So it becomes a bit even more [01:02:10] personal when you’re looking after other parts of their health. Not not just Dental. Right. [01:02:15] And you’ve got time to educate them as well. You know, you spend the time on the oral health [01:02:20] education, the however you want to. So it’s having the time. It’s having [01:02:25] it’s having the the ability to be able to spend as long as you want with that individual. [01:02:30] And there I think there’s a market for that. I would pay for that. If there was, I would happily [01:02:35] pay for a six month health check. I’m like, I see value in it, knowing that, you know, [01:02:40] everything’s ticked, ticked off, and I’m doing all the right things. Do I need to change what I’m doing? Do [01:02:45] I need to, you know, eat different, drink different, sleep different. You know, so there [01:02:50] is value in that?

Payman Langroudi: Sure. Amazing.

[VOICE]: This [01:02:55] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one [01:03:00] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:03:05] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:03:10] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And [01:03:15] just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had [01:03:20] to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If [01:03:25] you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share [01:03:30] this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. [01:03:35]

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:00:30] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome a power couple from [00:00:45] dentistry, one of the first power couples we’ve ever had, I think. I think we had Kunal and Lucy [00:00:50] as well, but actually Martin and Vinny Adriani, who I knew separately [00:00:55] before they got together. And then one day they said, oh, we’re together and then got married [00:01:00] and all of that. I think I’ve known both of you for at least a decade. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, [00:01:05] it must be. I mean, yeah, Covid was only five years. Yeah. More, more more than that.

Martin Attariani: Started [00:01:10] being enlightened in 2011.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? Do you remember.

Martin Attariani: That? Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How do you remember that?

Martin Attariani: I [00:01:15] mean, it’s just an amazing brand. How can I forget? You [00:01:20] don’t remember when you first meet a great thing, right? When did you meet me, by the way?

Payman Langroudi: I probably met both [00:01:25] of you before you met each other. But let’s let’s go into. How did you meet each other? Let’s start with [00:01:30] that. How did you meet?

Vinne Attariani: How did we meet? Yeah. Okay. [00:01:35] Um. So me and Martin used to. Well, we first met when we used to work [00:01:40] at a NHS practice in Coventry. So I was an associate [00:01:45] there already. And then you came to work in 2006? [00:01:50] 2006.

Martin Attariani: So I just kicked in.

Vinne Attariani: And [00:01:55] funnily enough. Right, we used to work next door to each other, so his surgery used to be next to my [00:02:00] surgery, and I think it was about 18 months before I even said hello [00:02:05] to him. I didn’t even say hello.

Payman Langroudi: Dental practices are like that.

Martin Attariani: Well, it was a big, large 12 surgery [00:02:10] practice as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. Huge one. Yeah. Oh was it. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It was [00:02:15] it in Coventry. Yeah I’ve been.

Martin Attariani: There.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s probably 24 surgeries now. [00:02:20]

Martin Attariani: It probably is now. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Vinne Attariani: And it wasn’t for the fact of being rude. You were [00:02:25] literally so busy.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: You were just fly in, fly out, and you wouldn’t even leave the room. [00:02:30] We had. I had two nurses. You had two nurses. It was.

Payman Langroudi: It’s still like that. When I went last time I went, [00:02:35] it felt more like a dental hospital than a dental practice. I mean, it was a gigantic. It was huge. 60 [00:02:40] people waiting.

Martin Attariani: To be seen. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Very busy. And, um.

Payman Langroudi: So. Okay, so you knew you [00:02:45] you knew each other. Existed at that point.

Vinne Attariani: Knew each other existed. Busy with our own lives. You [00:02:50] left and bought your own practice in 2008. 2008. [00:02:55]

Martin Attariani: Eight and.

Vinne Attariani: And then I carried on. Carried on there. Eventually I moved [00:03:00] out and got my own practice. Um, and then we just basically [00:03:05] saw each other at Dental courses. Right. Conferences. Courses.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But both.

Vinne Attariani: Of you.

Payman Langroudi: Are permanent [00:03:10] permanent fixtures on the Dental.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, we were then. So, you know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Was going.

Vinne Attariani: To every showcase, [00:03:15] every event. And you know, we used to sort of really enjoy that. And that’s where we used to bump into [00:03:20] each other. Then just you know on socially and I. [00:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What line did he use.

Vinne Attariani: Well.

Martin Attariani: It [00:03:30] was my magic trick was a.

Vinne Attariani: Magician, right. So I.

Martin Attariani: Think.

Vinne Attariani: He cast like some kind of spell on me [00:03:35] there, but.

Martin Attariani: Um, no.

Vinne Attariani: We just got on really well, and we just became friends then, right? Um, [00:03:40] I’m trying to actually think back to you, then started [00:03:45] going through your life story of your kind of divorce and everything. I [00:03:50] my story with my divorce, obviously. And then after that, [00:03:55] we just started becoming friends, didn’t we? We kind of, sort of probably met up on the scenes with like, Dental course, [00:04:00] and things more often. I think we were going through probably similar type of things [00:04:05] with our backgrounds. Well, after probably today you’ll hear more about our background. They are quite similar. [00:04:10] I think that kind of made us click more. Um, yeah. Yeah. Then eventually, [00:04:15] obviously, you know, a couple more magic tricks and spells and resist.

Payman Langroudi: And when did [00:04:20] you actually get married?

Vinne Attariani: We got on, darling.

Martin Attariani: Oh, do you remember?

Vinne Attariani: You remember? [00:04:25] Enlighten.

Martin Attariani: So we got married, uh, on the 15th [00:04:30] August 2019. Was our first marriage just [00:04:35] pre-COVID? Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Pre-covid.

Martin Attariani: Pre-covid. Day after we got married [00:04:40] again in the morning. And then the afternoon of that day, we got married again. [00:04:45] So we got married three times.

Vinne Attariani: Three times in two days.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Why? She wanted to make sure [00:04:50] that. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: You know, when you find a good one, you don’t want to let it go, right?

Martin Attariani: So an Indian wedding [00:04:55] on the Thursday.

Vinne Attariani: Wedding. Wedding. Thursday.

Martin Attariani: On the Friday morning, we had a Persian [00:05:00] wedding. And then in the afternoon, we had a white wedding in the chapel. Oh. So we got three [00:05:05] documents.

Payman Langroudi: Nice.

Martin Attariani: Nice. Why would you say. Obviously [00:05:10] satisfied. All our families and the different cultures and everything. [00:05:15] But. Yeah. In August 2019, just six, six months before Covid. [00:05:20] Yeah, just before we were lucky.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, we were very lucky. It was.

Martin Attariani: Last minute.

Vinne Attariani: As well, wasn’t it? We [00:05:25] planned everything really last minute.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve both got a sort of interesting backstory as to how [00:05:30] you ended up in the UK. Mhm. Um, should we start with you, Martin? [00:05:35]

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Where do you want to start?

Payman Langroudi: Just Iran. Right. [00:05:40]

Martin Attariani: Iran. Right. So yeah, I was born in Iran, uh, in [00:05:45] 1972. And, um, um. Um, at [00:05:50] the time, my dad was, uh, [00:05:55] in the Air Force, in King’s army, back in the day when Shah was in Iran, [00:06:00] obviously. And, um, dad used to, um, uh, [00:06:05] get a lot of, uh, positions and educations in the United [00:06:10] States. So a few times he ended up going there, uh, [00:06:15] for educations. This is when I was very little. And then probably [00:06:20] 1977, 78, we were living there as a family. Yeah. Two brothers. [00:06:25] And my youngest brother, Charlie, was actually born in in Texas.

Payman Langroudi: Another [00:06:30] dentist. Who? Another dentist?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. And, uh, what happened [00:06:35] then is that, um, we were living in Texas, and, uh, [00:06:40] family got a bit homesick, so we decided to move back [00:06:45] to Iran, not knowing what the future holds in 78. This [00:06:50] is 78.

Payman Langroudi: So just at the time of the troubles in [00:06:55] Iran, the revolution and all that.

Martin Attariani: We basically when we got back two months later, [00:07:00] the revolution started and all the airports [00:07:05] got shut down. And you know, the story, everything just erupted.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Um, [00:07:10] massively. And then we were stuck. Then a year later, was [00:07:15] it a year later or something? The war started between Iran and Iraq, Iraq. And [00:07:20] obviously it was grim times in Iran. And I mean, [00:07:25] I remember.

Payman Langroudi: So you were 6 or 7 years old.

Martin Attariani: I was, uh, no, I did at that [00:07:30] time. So I was probably seven. Yeah, I was 7 or [00:07:35] 8 at the time of the revolution. I, you know, I’ve got very [00:07:40] vivid memories of the bombings and the air raids [00:07:45] over Tehran and how we used to as soon as we heard the sirens, you [00:07:50] know, we were getting together in this small hallway in the middle of the building [00:07:55] and everything. We had to turn all the lights off and, [00:08:00] you know, just stay indoors for days or what have you.

Payman Langroudi: You get some sort of PTSD [00:08:05] when you see.

Martin Attariani: I don’t like the very gory movies. Yeah. And [00:08:10] and I used to explain to Vinnie that, you know, I’ve seen horror.

Payman Langroudi: Horrible [00:08:15] things.

Martin Attariani: Horror scenes in real life. So for me, watching [00:08:20] gory movies just reminds me of those scenes I used. [00:08:25] I remember of of people having, you know, their legs [00:08:30] and arms cut off and, you know, it’s just it’s stuff that stays with you [00:08:35] for life. I had two cousins or. Yeah, two cousins who went [00:08:40] to to to the front line and never came back. One of them was only 16. [00:08:45] Wow. So, you know, these are things that stays with you for life. [00:08:50] You can never shake. Shake it off. Um, that was [00:08:55] what we were going through at the time. And I think, um, uh, [00:09:00] especially constantly. You heard about people you knew, [00:09:05] friends, relatives going to the war and not come back. That [00:09:10] started to prompt my dad that it’s probably time to leave [00:09:15] the country again. But obviously you couldn’t because, you [00:09:20] know, the country was in shutdown. You couldn’t just take a [00:09:25] flight and leave the country. So he started to explore the different ways of getting out of the country. [00:09:30] And this is back in the time where, you know, you didn’t have Google, [00:09:35] uh, you you couldn’t get any information. So just getting information [00:09:40] was impossible. In a country [00:09:45] with obviously a lot of oppression at the time, you wouldn’t even discuss [00:09:50] with your next door neighbour or even your with your brother or anybody [00:09:55] that I want to leave the country.

Martin Attariani: You know, you just couldn’t. So just getting information [00:10:00] was difficult. And I know at one point he was looking at boarding schools for [00:10:05] us with three sons at that time. Then, as [00:10:10] I say, he was planning and doing research about that. And then it was one [00:10:15] particular incident that happened. At one point we used to have a villa by [00:10:20] the Caspian Sea summer villa. And at one point when we were there, the [00:10:25] moral police, as you know, they are, they look after how people are, [00:10:30] how they dress up and how they behave and everything. They took my brother with his friends, [00:10:35] my older brother. He was probably 18 at that time. They took him to [00:10:40] custody because he had long hair, because he had short sleeve t shirts [00:10:45] with foreign language writing on his t shirt. So that [00:10:50] obviously had to go and get him out. And, um, it was [00:10:55] from that incident that he started to talk about immigration [00:11:00] with a next door neighbour, and this lady was working [00:11:05] at Iran Air, the official airline in Iran, and [00:11:10] she said, maybe I can do something for you guys. And then through her, we found out [00:11:15] that there is a lot of Iranians moving to Germany at the time.

Martin Attariani: Before [00:11:20] I know it, I was in a language school to learn German. [00:11:25] And why me? My [00:11:30] older brother was 18. He was due for national services. He had to [00:11:35] join the army or be ready to join. My younger brother Charlie was [00:11:40] probably 6 or 7 at that time, too young. I was 13 [00:11:45] and had I filled 14 fully, [00:11:50] uh, I would not be able to leave the country because [00:11:55] that was the rules. Once you filled, uh, 14, then you can’t [00:12:00] leave the country. You need to be ready to go to the war. So I was the only [00:12:05] person in the family, as she explained to dad that. Why don’t you send [00:12:10] Martin away? And then once he’s there, he’s outside. Hopefully he can [00:12:15] help open a path for the rest of the family. And that’s that’s what happened, [00:12:20] basically. So I started to study German, waiting for [00:12:25] arrangements to be sent to German Germany by myself. [00:12:30] It was around April time, 1986. May I turn [00:12:35] 14, So I had to the end of that year, um, to, [00:12:40] to leave basically. Summer came perfect time for me to start to study German. [00:12:45] So I was in a language school. Three months later, rumours [00:12:50] came that Germany has stopped taking refugees.

Martin Attariani: So it was [00:12:55] very panic. Plan A didn’t work out. What do we do now? Let’s find plan B. [00:13:00] One day she came back and said, well, apparently Sweden has opened their doors [00:13:05] up and and Sweden people is a new route. If you want [00:13:10] to go out, we have to send Martin to Sweden. And, you know, for us it was like way [00:13:15] Sweden, Germany we knew more about. But Sweden, it was like, uh, [00:13:20] up north is that is that, you know, Eskimos there. So [00:13:25] but it had to be that way. And that was it. Last minute. [00:13:30] We had to change all the plans. German was not needed anymore. Uh, people [00:13:35] speak Swedish in Sweden. And that was it then? Uh, they had to find a new route. And, [00:13:40] uh, she managed to get. So you couldn’t get visa to [00:13:45] many countries because we were on the war. She managed to get a [00:13:50] visa to East Berlin. It was [00:13:55] the West and East Germany at the time. Yeah. But what she did, uh, is [00:14:00] that she planned a route. A flight route that would take me from Tehran [00:14:05] to West Berlin. From there, I would change plane [00:14:10] to East Berlin. But [00:14:15] with one hour’s stop in Stockholm, in Sweden. So [00:14:20] I was given all the instructions.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:14:25] were the.

Martin Attariani: Instructions? The instructions was you take the plane from Tehran [00:14:30] when you get to West Berlin. You’re one [00:14:35] of my cousins. Were living there at the time. Your cousin will pick you up from the airport. You spend one [00:14:40] night with her, she will drop you off back to the airport the following day. [00:14:45] You hop on the plane. You take the plane to [00:14:50] East Berlin. You have to make sure you get off the plane when it [00:14:55] stops in Stockholm. And that’s. That’s what I did. I [00:15:00] had one bag with me. Just. Just one duffel bag. And we got [00:15:05] to the airport at five in the morning on that day. Uh, 22nd of September, 1986. [00:15:10] Those are dates and times that you’d never forget. And, um, [00:15:15] obviously, that age, you know, very nervous about how things are going [00:15:20] to go. But, you know, I was I was.

Payman Langroudi: So you got to Stockholm.

Martin Attariani: Adamant [00:15:25] that I’m just gonna do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: So I got to West Berlin, spend [00:15:30] the night there? On my way to Stockholm. As [00:15:35] per the instructions, I went into the toilet on the [00:15:40] plane and I had to shred my passport.

Payman Langroudi: They told you to do that?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. [00:15:45]

Payman Langroudi: So you could arrive with no papers?

Martin Attariani: Exactly. Because if I had [00:15:50] my passport with me, they would force me. They could potentially force me on the same plane and carry [00:15:55] on to Berlin. So what? I ended up in Berlin. So I had to shred my passport. [00:16:00] And that was the probably the most scariest thing I had to do. [00:16:05] 14 on, you know, on that day. And I remember just [00:16:10] shaking as I was doing it. I managed to rip everything up, small pieces [00:16:15] flushing the toilet, and I got to the to the plastic folder [00:16:20] and I was like, what? Nobody told me what to do with this. I remember I was like, well, [00:16:25] what do I do with this, you know? Still scared, but I can’t stop now. There’s [00:16:30] evidence that I’ve got a passport, and I just managed to find [00:16:35] a tiny little crack between the cabinetry. And I just. I just, [00:16:40] you know, I just pushed it through, and, you know, that [00:16:45] was only that was quite traumatic because I knew I was doing something, you know, [00:16:50] illegal potentially. And till this day, 38 years [00:16:55] later, I can’t get on a plane and go to the toilet without, you know, [00:17:00] getting a vivid image of that day or every single [00:17:05] time I’m on a plane. I’ve told you before as well. Every time, you know it’s with me all the time anyways. [00:17:10] Got to the to Stockholm airport and I waited for [00:17:15] an hour again, as per the instructions. Wait for the plane to carry on [00:17:20] and leave the airport. And then, um, I was just sat, well, [00:17:25] hung around in the bathroom again at the airport. Uh, then [00:17:30] I walked up to a police in the end. Um, and I said, I’m [00:17:35] here to seek refugee. Not knowing English a lot. Obviously, I [00:17:40] had practice. I knew what was going on. I was had instructions, what to say.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:17:45] what did they do with you then?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So? So I was at the airport for 24 hours. Um, [00:17:50] they gave me took me to another hall, I think, because it was even [00:17:55] the Swedish government and police and immigration [00:18:00] services, they were not ready for this. All of a sudden they had an influx [00:18:05] of miners coming to the country. Yeah. So I was sent to a refugee [00:18:10] camp like anybody else. And I remember that was put into a room [00:18:15] with three other adults.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Martin Attariani: And every night [00:18:20] they would drink, get drunk and everything. I was in [00:18:25] my bad. I remember that I used to hide my. I had a bit of money with me. I would [00:18:30] just put all my valuables under my pillow, and I would sleep with my [00:18:35] one eye open because I was, you know, I was a kid. Yeah. So, um, [00:18:40] that was not very pleasant at all. There were nice guys. No. No problem as such. But [00:18:45] again, leaving your family home and your, you know, your bedroom [00:18:50] and all of a sudden you’re sharing room with adults. So it was more that. But [00:18:55] I was there for a month and then I was moved to another refugee [00:19:00] camp until they finally send me to what they called [00:19:05] group houses. Group home in in Swedish. And [00:19:10] that was what government potentially gradually set [00:19:15] start to set up where it was an establishment with uh [00:19:20] staff and few 3 or 4 staff stuff, maybe, and then [00:19:25] 8 or 9 minor.

Payman Langroudi: Like a boarding school kind of boarding.

Martin Attariani: Situation. Like a boarding school.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:19:30] long did it take before you got to a situation that was anywhere near normality of like [00:19:35] going going to school and.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So I was in a, in a, in a [00:19:40] initial group group house in south Sweden somewhere [00:19:45] for six months. But they did tell us that this is going to be a temporary. Yeah. So although we [00:19:50] went to school, we knew we’re not going to stay there for too long.

Payman Langroudi: So six months later you got to like [00:19:55] six months.

Martin Attariani: Later we all got spread out. It was eight of us, nine of us. And then [00:20:00] we were all spread out across the country.

Payman Langroudi: Living with the family or something.

Martin Attariani: So then [00:20:05] we went, sent to other, more permanent group [00:20:10] houses.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I.

Martin Attariani: See. Yeah. We were allocated families as well. [00:20:15] Foster families. So each child did have a family that [00:20:20] they could spend time with.

Payman Langroudi: How long after that was the first time you saw your own family [00:20:25] again?

Martin Attariani: Um, so a year later. But [00:20:30] as as as this is happening with me. Yeah. My brother, my older brother. [00:20:35]

Payman Langroudi: He managed to come as well.

Martin Attariani: Um, because he couldn’t leave the country legally. [00:20:40] Yeah. My dad had to pay smugglers to get him out of Iran. [00:20:45]

Payman Langroudi: Through across the border with Turkey.

Martin Attariani: Turkey?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And so many people who did that.

Martin Attariani: He ended [00:20:50] up in jail. They took him.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: He ended up in jail for a month. Dad [00:20:55] had to go and bribe him out, and then he carried on to Turkey. [00:21:00] The first smuggler took them all dad’s money and disappeared. [00:21:05] The second one managed to send him through in the end, after [00:21:10] six months. Once he got to the airport in Stockholm. [00:21:15] It was a group of five of them. Six of them. Maybe They [00:21:20] decided to deport them back to Turkey. I [00:21:25] found out and I managed to get a train up to Arlanda, which [00:21:30] is the airport in Stockholm. Yeah. Had I not been there. [00:21:35]

Payman Langroudi: He would have been sent back.

Martin Attariani: He would have been sent back to Turkey. And they did with the rest of the [00:21:40] crew. But because I was there, they let my brother stay. Wow. So he. [00:21:45]

Payman Langroudi: Came. That was a year later.

Martin Attariani: That was a year later. He was sent to another, [00:21:50] an adult refugee parents.

Payman Langroudi: When was the first time you saw your parents?

Martin Attariani: And then during the time? Um, [00:21:55] my older brother was in Turkey because of the problems. My [00:22:00] at that, at that point, my mom and my youngest brother were in Turkey helping [00:22:05] him. Yeah. So probably six months after him or [00:22:10] eight months, mom and my youngest brother managed to get to Sweden. [00:22:15] And then after that, a year later, Finally, dad [00:22:20] joined us in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: So now we’re in this environment of, [00:22:25] you know, immigration being such a big issue here. When you when you see people [00:22:30] coming over on a boat or whatever, I guess you see those people differently [00:22:35] to the man in the street. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: You know.

Payman Langroudi: The man in.

Martin Attariani: My heart.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The man in the street sort of [00:22:40] sees that as illegal immigration. Like it’s all put into that bucket. But [00:22:45] people don’t really understand that those people are running away from something. Right. It’s.

Martin Attariani: You [00:22:50] know, I read and it’s happening quite often. Unfortunately. People dying. [00:22:55]

Payman Langroudi: 50 this year, 50 this.

Martin Attariani: Year. It’s heartbreaking because I was one [00:23:00] of them. Yeah. But I was fortunate enough to, you [00:23:05] know, get to the other side without losing my life. But it does break my heart when I [00:23:10] read it. And I can understand why they’re doing it, why they actually taking [00:23:15] such a big risk. Many times people think, how [00:23:20] could your parents send you away at that young age?

Payman Langroudi: But [00:23:25] the other choice was.

Martin Attariani: You have to be in that situation. What are the choices? [00:23:30] If you ask my parents now, they still say that was [00:23:35] the toughest thing we ever did. But if you have to do it again, we probably wouldn’t [00:23:40] do it again for 14 days. My parents didn’t know whether I made it to Sweden [00:23:45] or not for 14 days. Not knowing before.

Payman Langroudi: Mobile phones, before [00:23:50] internet. Right?

Martin Attariani: It took 14 days before I managed to speak [00:23:55] to them over the phone. So just imagine that. My mum says [00:24:00] I was just cursing myself for sending you away because we thought you dead. [00:24:05] We thought something’s happened to you. Yeah, it was back before these times. You didn’t know [00:24:10] anything about the rest of the world. You know, you didn’t have Google. You don’t have any [00:24:15] information about where Sweden is. Maybe he froze to death over there. He [00:24:20] was very tough. They had sleepless nights for 14 days until [00:24:25] I managed to make the first contact. Even the phone. I used to have my [00:24:30] whole pocket full of coins, and I only managed to speak for 30s [00:24:35] while I’m doing this and putting.

Payman Langroudi: I remember, I remember international [00:24:40] calls were super expensive, so expensive.

Martin Attariani: I remember and my parents didn’t [00:24:45] even have a phone at home, so dad would have to go [00:24:50] sit.

Payman Langroudi: Somewhere, call centres.

Martin Attariani: And wait for me to [00:24:55] call. It took 14 days before we managed to make [00:25:00] the first contact and say, I’m safe, I’m in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s given you like [00:25:05] a survival instinct? Like an independence? Like when I think about my kid at 14 [00:25:10] who had everything given to him on a plate. Or your kids, I’m sure. Yeah. Do [00:25:15] you think you’ve got. You’ve got something from that?

Martin Attariani: Absolutely. I mean, he [00:25:20] completely changed me as a as a person.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but something beneficial, right?

Martin Attariani: Absolutely. I mean, [00:25:25] since since then, I’ve just been extremely independent, self-reliant. [00:25:30] And, you know, I once you’ve gone through that, you think I can’t go through [00:25:35] anything? Yeah. Um, not that you’re not scared of anything. You’re still scared [00:25:40] of situations you’re put into, but you are prepared to take risks. [00:25:45] Yeah. You are. Just approach everything differently because [00:25:50] of that background. So it really changes you as [00:25:55] a person. Wouldn’t be who I am today if it wasn’t for that, obviously. [00:26:00]

Payman Langroudi: What a story. And you know, people talk about why didn’t you stop at the first safe country. People [00:26:05] talk about that now. Why do people come from France to the UK? Yeah. Yeah. And that ignores [00:26:10] the fact that, you know, we sign up to the Geneva Convention, right? The Geneva Convention doesn’t say that. [00:26:15] You get out of the country and go to the first safe country. The Geneva Convention says, you go to wherever you go to [00:26:20] and make an application there. And then people say, why do people [00:26:25] come without their papers? Yeah, because there’s no legal routes to come. Yeah. And you’re [00:26:30] running. Exactly. And people don’t understand that.

Martin Attariani: No, no. When you [00:26:35] are in that situation, you just want out. You don’t care where.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Anywhere. [00:26:40]

Payman Langroudi: Philly. Did you come on a.

Vinne Attariani: I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Were you a.

Vinne Attariani: Legal. [00:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Were you a legal immigrant?

Vinne Attariani: I was actually there is a little bit of illegality [00:26:50] about how I got here. Um, how did I get.

Payman Langroudi: You were brought up in Canada. [00:26:55]

Vinne Attariani: I was born in Canada. So my parents immigrated in 1975 [00:27:00] from India. So my dad, um, left India. He actually. Actually, my [00:27:05] dad left first. He lived in the UK for a couple of years for us, did a [00:27:10] bit of work here and then emigrated to Canada, where he worked at [00:27:15] a large aluminium factory called Alcan. That’s where Alcan [00:27:20] is, in a tiny little town that no one’s ever heard of. Um, it’s called Kitimat [00:27:25] in British Columbia. Um. Up north. Yeah. So we’re closer to Alaska [00:27:30] than Vancouver. A bit cold, yeah. Bit cold. But you used to get nice snow, you know, proper [00:27:35] snow. Yeah, yeah. None of these little speckly, you know, wet stuff. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. [00:27:40] And then, um. Yeah. So my mum came from India straight to Kitimat, and [00:27:45] then I was born in 76, in this little valley town between [00:27:50] two mountains. And it was beautiful, you know. Beautiful place to grow up. Really safe place to grow up. [00:27:55] Um, I’m one of five girls, so I’m the eldest. [00:28:00]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Vinne Attariani: My parents tried five times for a boy, I would say. Um, so [00:28:05] now dad’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: So imagine that story like that was 100% [00:28:10] true.

Vinne Attariani: They always had true story.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not a joke.

Vinne Attariani: Are you supposed to be a boy? You’re just one big disappointment, [00:28:15] though. Um, so I was the honorary son. Eldest child. Most [00:28:20] responsibilities growing up. Um. And yes, my dad worked. I grew up with my [00:28:25] dad working two jobs to support the family. Mum lived at. Well. Mum was a housewife [00:28:30] looking after her five girls. And my childhood was [00:28:35] not, as you know, exciting as Martin’s, right? But, you know, it wasn’t. [00:28:40] But it was. I grew up in a really safe, safe place. Safe environment. Very, [00:28:45] um, strict parents, you know, with, like, an Indian Sikh background. My parents, [00:28:50] you know, first generation coming from India. You know, they were very strict. I wasn’t allowed [00:28:55] to go out. I wasn’t allowed to have friends or go to friend’s houses. It was all about studying [00:29:00] and education. My dad was a teacher in India. So for him, education was a really big thing. [00:29:05] And then with us obviously being all girls, his his main goal was [00:29:10] that I want my all my daughters to be educated. He didn’t want us to have [00:29:15] to ever depend, I suppose, on a man, you know, to [00:29:20] be independent or earn your own, have your own job, make your own money, um, [00:29:25] stand on your own two feet.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting when you have kids, you realise how important that actually [00:29:30] is.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Especially for a girl. You know.

Vinne Attariani: As much as you.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t want a girl for.

Vinne Attariani: A.

Payman Langroudi: Girl on [00:29:35] a on a on a guy.

Vinne Attariani: Because I think.

Payman Langroudi: For, for for money, you know, you’d be able to do your [00:29:40] own. Get away, get out of any situation. Right.

Vinne Attariani: Exactly. I think obviously, because our parents have grown up [00:29:45] in India, you know, the the background there is different, isn’t it, for I think for [00:29:50] females and males it is a lot different there. So dad obviously was very overprotective of us. [00:29:55] Um, we used to get get away from doing housework all the time, which was the best thing. You know, if mom’s like, oh, [00:30:00] I need the girls to do work. They’re like, no, no, they’re studying. They’re, you know, doing their education. Let them be. So [00:30:05] yeah, my childhood was just like, you’re going to study, you’re going to become a doctor of something. Of [00:30:10] course, of course. Yeah. Um, and yeah. So my [00:30:15] dad fell. Once they fell ill. But he did [00:30:20] have a bit of an injury when I was about 15. And he did start to get some [00:30:25] heart conditions where I think he started to worry about our future [00:30:30] because obviously there was no son in the family. You kind of. So there was a lot of pressure [00:30:35] on me to do well, to set the example for the rest of the sisters as well. [00:30:40] And I think with part of that, they still obviously carried that mentality of [00:30:45] arranged marriages, you know, daughter getting married and, um, you [00:30:50] know, the sort of boyfriend or pick your own husband back at that time. [00:30:55] And I then was introduced and [00:31:00] arranged to be married when I was 17. So I moved [00:31:05] here in 1994. Got married.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a say [00:31:10] in it? Surely.

Vinne Attariani: Well, so it was. It was, I did, [00:31:15] and I didn’t know. Not that I didn’t know I was. I was probably [00:31:20] too scared to say to my parents that I didn’t want to. It was, it was quite. [00:31:25] It was like that, um, you know, it was was, it was it was [00:31:30] a loving environment, but it was kind of like I think it was expected. So I still got raised the old [00:31:35] fashioned way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you didn’t know any better.

Vinne Attariani: And I didn’t know any different. And you know, this is what Indian [00:31:40] girls do. And you just follow what your parents say.

Payman Langroudi: And often, often [00:31:45] people, immigrants often are even more traditional than the people back home [00:31:50] because they’re almost like overcompensating for being abroad.

Vinne Attariani: Because they probably feel [00:31:55] they’re fighting everything. They’re fighting all the, you know, the modern life.

Payman Langroudi: And by that time, Maybe back [00:32:00] home it wasn’t as strict as. But because your parents moved over there trying to keep some things, [00:32:05] to try to.

Vinne Attariani: Keep all their traditions and everything. Right. And they obviously don’t know any better because that’s how they were [00:32:10] raised. Yeah. And so yeah. So we moved here. We all came for the wedding 1994, [00:32:15] and my family was with me for about two weeks. And then they all left and I was still here. [00:32:20] But what did help was that the, um, my ex now, but his [00:32:25] dad and my dad were really good friends, and I think my dad made a point of [00:32:30] making sure that I was going to get married into a family where I would be looked after, and that they would understand [00:32:35] that she is going to study and do her education. That was really important to him because I was 17, I just finished [00:32:40] what is equivalent of A-levels. So it was like high school, I just graduated. And part of the [00:32:45] sort of, you know, discussion was that my daughter has to go to university straight away and [00:32:50] is my ex is a doctor, medical doctor. And [00:32:55] so there was, you know, education did run in their family. So yeah. It was.

Payman Langroudi: So you studied [00:33:00] here?

Vinne Attariani: He studied. So I studied here. Yeah. Birmingham, so I yeah. So I graduated in 2000, [00:33:05] so qualified in 2000 and had both my sons in my [00:33:10] undergraduate.

Payman Langroudi: We live in Birmingham.

Vinne Attariani: I was living in Birmingham at that point. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:33:15] yeah. So both your sons in undergrad?

Vinne Attariani: Both my sons are always. We always laugh. [00:33:20] I was the strange Canadian girl in the first year. And then I was the the the girl with a funny accent [00:33:25] who was pregnant in the second year. Third year I was the funny accent Canadian with a [00:33:30] baby. So I always stuck out. I always I stuck out initially because I was from Canada and [00:33:35] then I was married and then now I’ve got a kid and then I got pregnant again in my final year. So [00:33:40] yeah, my final year of photos. I was 41 weeks pregnant with my second child. [00:33:45]

Martin Attariani: To have.

Vinne Attariani: Children.

Martin Attariani: Through dentistry.

Vinne Attariani: Do you.

Martin Attariani: Still [00:33:50] make.

Vinne Attariani: It? And but I look back, I think I don’t think I could do that the Vinnie now, I don’t think I could [00:33:55] do that now. I was, I was I was very mature [00:34:00] for my age. I feel because one I was I had a lot of pressure from my parents [00:34:05] and I kind of I accepted that role and responsibility very [00:34:10] well.

Payman Langroudi: What was the urgency to have kids? I mean, couldn’t you wait until after you qualified to have kids? [00:34:15] Like what? Conversations.

Vinne Attariani: There was no urgency. Do you know what? They were both [00:34:20] unplanned. Oh, they were both unplanned. But I always say to them they were the best two mistakes [00:34:25] I’ve ever made. Because of course, yeah, they were. It was. I would not have done it [00:34:30] any other way. It was obviously brilliant. You know, I graduated with a almost three year old. [00:34:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting in its own way. That’s what gives you strength, right? Getting [00:34:40] through that massive shift from Canada to Birmingham to dental school to. [00:34:45]

Martin Attariani: Another young.

Payman Langroudi: Mother of.

Vinne Attariani: Three. Well, no, I had my son was three when I graduated. [00:34:50] Mother of two. Yeah. So I’ve got no two boys now.

Payman Langroudi: Two boys. Two boys.

Vinne Attariani: Two boys.

Payman Langroudi: What a.

Vinne Attariani: Story. So, um. And [00:34:55] they just grew. I grew up along with me. I was still a kid, you know. I remember sitting there with [00:35:00] my then three year old, still pregnant, playing like Super Mario, you know, as a 20 [00:35:05] year old just before final exams. So, um, yeah, they just grew alongside [00:35:10] with me, and it was the best.

Payman Langroudi: And how old are they now?

Vinne Attariani: So now you ask [00:35:15] me. Well, eldest is 27 and my youngest is 24.

Payman Langroudi: And how old [00:35:20] are yours?

Martin Attariani: So mine. I’ve got two daughters and I’ve got 127 as well. I’m [00:35:25] 27. So Amanda and Cameron. Same age. 27? Yeah. And then Miranda’s [00:35:30] 26.

Payman Langroudi: So you started early too?

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because we’re the [00:35:35] same age.

Martin Attariani: I was 25 when I had, uh. Amanda. I’m four years older [00:35:40] than Renee.

Payman Langroudi: What was the story of you going into dentistry, and what were you like as a what you studied [00:35:45] in Sweden? Yes. Did you did you manage to get in easily? And then [00:35:50] what were what were you like? What were you like, sir?

Martin Attariani: So I was 19, right? I was [00:35:55] 19.

Payman Langroudi: And you did other things before then?

Martin Attariani: Well, I just finished school then, uh, or A-levels. [00:36:00] And my dad was very keen. He could see I’ve always been very good [00:36:05] with my hands and very artistic and, you know, building stuff. You [00:36:10] know, I was into computers very early. I had a computer when I was 17. Commodore [00:36:15] 64. I don’t know if you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Of course. That was my first computer.

Payman Langroudi: I remember, you.

Martin Attariani: Know, seeing [00:36:20] I was putting my own computer together and everything so he could see all that. And he [00:36:25] he used to say, do you know what, dentistry. Because my dad used to work within [00:36:30] the healthcare system in Iran when he was in Air Force. He used to [00:36:35] say, look, dentistry is really good. You should become a dentist. It will suit you. Yeah. [00:36:40] And at that time, I was like, dad, there’s no way I’m gonna be setting people, people [00:36:45] watching, people looking people in the mouth day in, day out. That is not for me. So. [00:36:50] Um, I used to enjoy chemistry at the time. I [00:36:55] really enjoyed the subject, so I carried on doing. I did two years chemical [00:37:00] engineering. Wow. From there, I fell in love with biochemistry. [00:37:05] And then I did my master’s in biochemistry for another, [00:37:10] uh, three years.

Payman Langroudi: So what were you thinking? Were you thinking career wise? [00:37:15]

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So I.

Payman Langroudi: Was.

Martin Attariani: Thinking, like, I really enjoying it. And the education was absolutely [00:37:20] for me was really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Job. Did you think you were going to do?

Martin Attariani: So I wanted to get into pharmaceutical [00:37:25] companies. So where I used to live in Gothenburg, Astra Zeneca, [00:37:30] which was only Astra back then, the HQ is in Gothenburg, Sweden, so [00:37:35] I was aiming for Astra. Unfortunately the year I finished 97 [00:37:40] they were not taking on anybody at all and that [00:37:45] carried on for maybe two years. They would not take anybody on. So I started to apply [00:37:50] for other jobs. But at the same time I had Amanda was just born [00:37:55] and Miranda was, uh, on her way because it was only a year between [00:38:00] the two girls. So I was like, well, I have to do something. And, uh, because I [00:38:05] was good with computers and everything while I was searching for jobs, [00:38:10] um, I sell my own marketing company, [00:38:15] so I bought a computer, and, uh, I bought some old [00:38:20] machinery to produce letters. So a vinyl [00:38:25] cutter from somebody that I knew, he said, [00:38:30] well, while you’re waiting, why don’t you do this? Yeah. Uh, well, you can do this, uh, [00:38:35] on the side. So at the time, my ex-wife had a hair salon, the [00:38:40] back of the hair salon. It was a big room that was not being used.

Payman Langroudi: This was your.

Martin Attariani: Great. [00:38:45] You know, I can at least bring him money for the family while I’m searching for jobs. [00:38:50] And that’s what I did. And, um. Great job. Uh, [00:38:55] you make really good money in marketing. Uh, as you know, even today, I think [00:39:00] if I stop doing dentistry one day, I’ll happily go back to that branch. [00:39:05] Honestly, it’s very good. Good job, good money. Um, [00:39:10] but then I just. I just carried on because it was I was [00:39:15] doing fine. And it gave me flexibility to [00:39:20] be around my daughters, which I really treasured at the time. Yeah. So because [00:39:25] it was my own business, I would be home. Yeah. Dropped them [00:39:30] off to school, picked them up. Yeah. And made the most out of being with my [00:39:35] daughters when they were that young. So it suited me. After a few [00:39:40] years, I started to miss my intellectual side of me. [00:39:45] So I was like, okay, maybe I should carry on doing, [00:39:50] um, do my PhD. Maybe [00:39:55] I can stand out more than, uh, and get a job as a, as a [00:40:00] as a PhD, um, qualified chemist. So [00:40:05] that was my aim. I started to look into getting obviously a position as [00:40:10] it happened. I was in town one day and I just [00:40:15] came across two of my friends, well, people I knew from uni when [00:40:20] I was doing my undergraduate master’s degree education, basically. [00:40:25] Um, and they were doing their PhD at the time, and [00:40:30] when I met them in town, I was like, okay, well, you finished, how’s it going for you guys? [00:40:35] Both of them were jobless. So I was like, well, [00:40:40] I definitely don’t want to go to another four years of PhD degree and end up in the same situation. [00:40:45] This is 2000. In 2000, I actually came to [00:40:50] London looking for a job as a chemist over here. And, [00:40:55] uh, I was staying with two of my friends who studied [00:41:00] dentistry when I was studying chemistry. We were in the same, [00:41:05] same uni.

Payman Langroudi: They’d moved to London by this time.

Martin Attariani: By that.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Martin Attariani: They were in London practising. [00:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because dental school in Sweden is full of Iranians. I went [00:41:15] to the dental school in Gothenburg and I saw the when it would have been 2008, [00:41:20] nine, ten. So around then, and I saw the [00:41:25] list of students and it was like 70% Iranians. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Did [00:41:30] you see my picture there?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. It was, it was, [00:41:35] it was especially at that time, probably 50% of, of [00:41:40] each, year was, was, was Iranians. And that’s why you have. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: Such then came here.

Martin Attariani: And they moved here. That’s why you have so many Iranians, Swedish dentists, [00:41:50] especially in London, you see a lot of them.

Payman Langroudi: So then so then you decide, I’m going to study dentistry.

Martin Attariani: Do [00:41:55] you know what? One day I was going to job centres to find a job as a chemist. [00:42:00] And then one day I came to my friend, uh, friends, uh, practice, uh, and [00:42:05] I sat as I sat in the waiting room waiting for him to finish work so we can go [00:42:10] home. I looked around, well, I said, you know, this is really nice. You [00:42:15] get to see people, you get to help people out. And it’s a, you [00:42:20] know, respectable profession. And at the time, I was like, if [00:42:25] nobody gives me a job, I set up my own business. At least I’m not [00:42:30] relying on that. And that was it. That evening I called my ex-wife. I said, [00:42:35] I’m coming home. And she said, oh, you got a job? I said, no.

Payman Langroudi: How did you [00:42:40] feed the family while you do five years of dental school?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So I [00:42:45] still did marketing on the side.

Martin Attariani: So I had my business. I had my business.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. So [00:42:50] quick question. Quick question. Before you go any further. Um, I know you’re one of these guys. I’ve [00:42:55] known you a while, right? You kind of love technology and you love dentistry. Well, [00:43:00] you’re one of the people who loves dentistry more than most. You and Depeche? Yeah. Love teeth [00:43:05] man. Yes, probably. And. But there. Has the chemistry helped [00:43:10] at all?

Martin Attariani: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because often, I mean, I’m in a situation now where I’m like, gosh, [00:43:15] should I be paying more attention than chemistry levels, man? Yeah. You know, I’m trying to get bioglass [00:43:20] into a desensitiser. The guy goes, oh yeah, it’s calcium. Sodium phosphosilicate. [00:43:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s one of the seven ingredients of this. [00:43:30] Yeah. So how has it helped? So bonding and all that?

Martin Attariani: Do you know what? Um, so firstly, [00:43:35] when I did, um, the the education. Yeah. Uh, everybody [00:43:40] were dreading biochemistry.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you were cool. Right. You’ve done it all.

Martin Attariani: I didn’t even have to do it. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: So I didn’t even I skipped that. Um, I can’t remember. Four months of biochemistry. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: That was easy for you.

Martin Attariani: I didn’t have to do it at all.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t have to even go. I [00:43:55] didn’t even do it. So you’re busy printing marketing?

Martin Attariani: No, I was just. I was actually [00:44:00] doing my business, and it was good. Um, the university [00:44:05] and my business and my home was just ten minutes, 15 minutes from, [00:44:10] um, away from each other. So that’s exactly what I used to do.

Payman Langroudi: Were you top of your class?

Martin Attariani: So, [00:44:15] um.

Payman Langroudi: Or were you middle or were you like me?

Martin Attariani: I think I was probably, [00:44:20] um, you know, I was probably one of the best, so I [00:44:25] think I think, you know, the lowest I got in [00:44:30] any exam for dentistry was 85%.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. [00:44:35]

Martin Attariani: But I think I owe that to my [00:44:40] excitement for the education. I really love [00:44:45] that education, and I think having that chemistry background [00:44:50] helped me to understand and or grow [00:44:55] more passion, because by that time I was on a molecular [00:45:00] level, I my understanding was just the very tiniest molecules. [00:45:05]

Payman Langroudi: That clicked for.

Martin Attariani: You. I had no idea or education about what [00:45:10] this means in the bigger organs, which is the [00:45:15] human. When I did dentistry, everything just fell into place [00:45:20] and it was like, this is amazing. I was like a sponge. How amazing. By the [00:45:25] second year, because we did, um, general medicine the first two years. And one [00:45:30] day I came home and I said to my wife, I’m going to change to medicine. I want to become a doctor. [00:45:35] This is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I wish it was over the moon about that.

Martin Attariani: Honestly. And [00:45:40] I did change my mind. And I’m happy I did. Yeah. Um. And [00:45:45] what put me off is, again, having small children, I was like, it’s going to be a hospital job. [00:45:50] It’s going to be more demanding hours and everything. I don’t want that. So I changed my mind [00:45:55] again. I stuck to to dentist, which I’m thrilled that I did.

Payman Langroudi: And did you work in Sweden [00:46:00] at all before you moved here?

Martin Attariani: So between the last two terms, we [00:46:05] were allowed to work as as a dentist. So then [00:46:10] I did three months dentistry in Sweden. And then when I finished my last term. [00:46:15] Then I’ll move straight away here.

Payman Langroudi: To the UK.

Martin Attariani: To the UK.

Payman Langroudi: And what were your initial [00:46:20] like feelings? Because the standard in Sweden is definitely [00:46:25] higher, I would say, and definitely much more prevention based.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:46:30] then I guess that practice. I know the practice in Coventry is a mixed bag. Like it’s a. Yeah, [00:46:35] but how did you feel the first time you saw the NHS.

Martin Attariani: You know.

Payman Langroudi: System [00:46:40] and.

Martin Attariani: All that? I was.

Payman Langroudi: Shocked.

Martin Attariani: So the first day I came to work.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:46:45]

Martin Attariani: And I had a full list of patients obviously. [00:46:50] Yeah. And 40 I remember the first patient was 40 minutes [00:46:55] Crown prep and I was like, [00:47:00] is this how you know? But [00:47:05] I was thrown into it straight away. So I was shocked. But I was like, [00:47:10] let’s get on with it.

Payman Langroudi: I was told a story recently that, you know, in [00:47:15] NHS they pride themselves. Some people pride themselves on speed.

Vinne Attariani: Yes of course.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Because [00:47:20] you got, I think.

Martin Attariani: You got.

Vinne Attariani: Targets to hit and you think.

Martin Attariani: It’s brilliant. I think it’s brilliant [00:47:25] experience. And I always say once you nearly qualified you need [00:47:30] NHS work.

Payman Langroudi: I still.

Martin Attariani: I still say that I.

Payman Langroudi: Disagree with that. I disagree [00:47:35] with that. Um, I know it’s it’s good. It’s a good experience. But you [00:47:40] need. Yeah, it’s a bit much. Right. Because they don’t seem to need it in Sweden and Germany. But [00:47:45] over here we need it. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, a [00:47:50] lot of that. Hey, get your experience in the NHS. Yeah. There is another way of saying that. Make massive mistakes [00:47:55] on NHS patients.

Martin Attariani: Does it have to be. No, I don’t agree with that.

Payman Langroudi: No, but it can be. But it [00:48:00] doesn’t.

Martin Attariani: Need to be. The reason I say that.

Payman Langroudi: Sorted out in the NHS and then coming.

Martin Attariani: From the, the, [00:48:05] the intellectual side of our profession. Yeah. End of the day it’s [00:48:10] the work of hands. Yeah. Agree. Yeah. You’re only going to get experience if you’re [00:48:15] exposed to a lot of treatments. So it’s not about making mistakes on the [00:48:20] NHS. It’s about getting the experience up quickly because [00:48:25] you’ve got a bigger It turnaround of patients on [00:48:30] the NHS. That’s where you’re going to do a lot of dentures. I know [00:48:35] that’s where you’re going to do lots of root canals. That’s where you’re going to do lots of crowns.

Payman Langroudi: We’re all aware of [00:48:40] that, right.

Vinne Attariani: I think I mean like for example, vocational training. So I feel was very important [00:48:45] for me because, because, because you need that transition between coming out of dental [00:48:50] school where you might have done like five fillings. Right. I haven’t even done a complete [00:48:55] root canal. I did 1 or 2 crowns. Right. I would never want to go into private practice [00:49:00] coming out of dental school. That vocational training, even just that even 1 to 2 [00:49:05] years in some sort of system where it’s not driven by udas and targets, but you’re [00:49:10] in a bit of a safer, supervised environment where you can take [00:49:15] the time and, you know, not make your mistakes, but find your feet, find your confidence, [00:49:20] learn how to speak to patients because you don’t even learn anything about communication or interactions. [00:49:25] And and you know, just how to work as a team, how to work as a leader, [00:49:30] how to work as a follower. There’s so much to learn about practice that you do not learn in dental school. And then [00:49:35] you can’t afford to jump straight into private practice and then make these mistakes. Your mistakes don’t [00:49:40] have to be just hands on dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: I know someone, I know someone, um, [00:49:45] maybe, you know, he qualified the day after qualifying, went [00:49:50] into a master’s program in Harvard. So he qualified here.

Martin Attariani: And why is he now.

Payman Langroudi: In [00:49:55] the master’s program at Harvard?

Martin Attariani: But he’s a specialist now.

Payman Langroudi: No, he just started the process. So [00:50:00] he finished his five year course. Yeah. One day after straight into the master [00:50:05] program. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and in the process of program, I think they placed, I don’t know, 120 [00:50:10] implants or something. And they do full mouth rehabs and, and all of that. So he’s never [00:50:15] going to see at the end of that. He can practice as a specialist in six [00:50:20] states in the US. Yeah. He’s never going to see that high volume, high demand. [00:50:25]

Martin Attariani: It depends on what your path is and what you want to do.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, he’ll never be the super [00:50:30] generalist that you are. No. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Because that’s what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: That’s somewhere we need to get to. Yeah. You [00:50:35] do everything right. You do everything to a very, very high standard. Yeah. I’ve [00:50:40] come across a few cats like that. Do you refer much or. No.

Martin Attariani: No.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:50:45] mean, you do all of your own endo.

Martin Attariani: I do all my endo’s are surgical [00:50:50] extraction.

Payman Langroudi: Wisdom teeth and all that.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn that?

Martin Attariani: So [00:50:55] I think, you know, we had a very good, robust, um, [00:51:00] education, uh, in Sweden, especially coming from Gothenburg. [00:51:05]

Payman Langroudi: Surgical training.

Martin Attariani: Surgically. We were, um, we were trained, uh, [00:51:10] and I placed my first implant as a student. I was the first [00:51:15] student in Gothenburg to ever place my own implant. Wow. While I was on [00:51:20] the fourth. Uh, no. Fifth year. And that’s because I’ve finished my quota for the education [00:51:25] that I had to do very early. Yeah. And I had extra time.

Payman Langroudi: So was. Was Branemark [00:51:30] in? In Gothenburg?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We had the clinic and [00:51:35] the guy that I actually placed my first implant with, uh, Professor Larcombe, [00:51:40] he was the head of Brownmark. Well, he was one of the big [00:51:45] guys with Brownmark developing the whole implant and everything.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:51:50] now you.

Martin Attariani: Do on Linda.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Martin Attariani: You know, as.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Martin Attariani: Tutor. [00:51:55]

Payman Langroudi: All on for sinus.

Martin Attariani: Full arch implants. Uh, [00:52:00] and, uh, I do sinus lifts, bone grafts.

Payman Langroudi: And you lecture [00:52:05] on digital. Digital dentistry.

Martin Attariani: And implants. Um, I as much [00:52:10] as I have time, I love sharing. I think that’s what our profession [00:52:15] is about. It’s not just about learning, and it’s just going to be meeting [00:52:20] a good job. I think it’s about sharing with each other. That’s how we’re all gonna learn [00:52:25] from each other’s mistakes and get better at what we do. So [00:52:30] as and when I have the time, I try to to share my [00:52:35] experience.

Payman Langroudi: And ortho fixed. Ortho.

Martin Attariani: I’ve been doing fixed ortho [00:52:40] for maybe 12 years. It started it started [00:52:45] uh, it started actually with.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, six months. Smiles.

Martin Attariani: No. Was it earlier? [00:52:50] No. What was it called? The system.

Vinne Attariani: Clear step.

Payman Langroudi: Step.

Martin Attariani: Clear step started [00:52:55] with clear step aligners. It was aligners. And then it just disappeared. [00:53:00] And then it was like as a substitute. Uh, going to fix, fix, fix [00:53:05] fixed ortho. And, uh, you know, I just absolutely love [00:53:10] it. Payman. I just love it. I come to work on the same day, you know, I might [00:53:15] have a simple filling and then which I even that still excites [00:53:20] me. I did the, you know, the perfect, the most perfect way I can [00:53:25] do. And then I have an implant and a guy and an endo. And I might have [00:53:30] an ortho later. So, you know, my days are so varied and that I [00:53:35] thrive just from that.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Why do you think some of us as [00:53:40] dentists are like you, constantly learning and [00:53:45] constantly improving and constantly on the tip of the spear, trying to understand what’s [00:53:50] going on next? And then some of us get to a certain standard [00:53:55] and almost give up and don’t want to go any further. I mean, you can be a dentist [00:54:00] right now and use just a total regular matrix without rubber dam for an MOT. Or [00:54:05] you could be a dentist and rubber dam sectional matrices, photographs, [00:54:10] scans. You know, by the way, all of the stuff you do. And what’s [00:54:15] the difference between those two dentists.

Martin Attariani: Vinnie, [00:54:20] I think I think, you know, I’m in [00:54:25] in in a mindset that, you know, either you do a job and [00:54:30] you do it properly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but why.

Martin Attariani: Or you don’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: Why? That’s why I.

Martin Attariani: Think. [00:54:35]

Payman Langroudi: Like, what’s different about you compared to the next man who isn’t that guy.

Martin Attariani: I [00:54:40] think it’s for me, it’s just a passion for what I’m doing.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:54:45] but why?

Vinne Attariani: I think I think it’s a reflection of the type of person that you are. Because, like, I [00:54:50] find that I’m the sort of person that if I’m going to do something when I do it properly, if I’m going to do my workout, [00:54:55] I’m going to get the full set in. If I’m going to do a filling, I’m going to finish it properly. [00:55:00] If I’m going to everything. I think you’re the same that if we’re going to, it’s just [00:55:05] in our nature that everything that we like to do or want to do, whether [00:55:10] it’s work or whether it’s with, you know, home life, extracurricular activities [00:55:15] we do. We just. I think we’re perfectionists. I think we do like to [00:55:20] do everything perfectly. So if we’re going to do it, it’s your quality of your work is a reflection [00:55:25] of yourself. Same way you look after your health, the same way you maintain everything else in your life [00:55:30] as well. It is just not.

Martin Attariani: One reason is our background where, [00:55:35] you know, we just learn to just make [00:55:40] the most out of.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, what you said about, you know, you were up for the [00:55:45] college and all that I was what was going through my head was, you know, having been given this opportunity [00:55:50] of running away and all those fears and nightmares you went through to now finally be in [00:55:55] dental school in Sweden, you made the most of it. Whereas I was just thinking about all the years you were mentioning, [00:56:00] I was thinking about where was I, where was I, where was I, right? And I remember getting to university. Spoilt kid. [00:56:05] Yeah. Spoilt kid. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: And we didn’t have a lot, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Looking to party. I was a spoilt kid looking [00:56:10] to party. It was a different situation. Yeah. I didn’t feel like this was a chance given to me, which.

Martin Attariani: Was the [00:56:15] majority of my classmates, exactly the same. But because I was a bit older, I [00:56:20] had my children and everything. I was more driven and I was like, goal in my head and [00:56:25] this is what I’m gonna do.

Payman Langroudi: This question of the dentist, right?

Martin Attariani: Maybe that stays with stayed with me ever since, [00:56:30] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: But for instance, I see people from my year. We had a small year. It wasn’t a big [00:56:35] year. By the time we qualified, it was only like 50, 40 people or something. But I [00:56:40] see the same people from my year at the events and [00:56:45] all the events. Yeah, the same 3 or 4. Yeah. Why are those 3 or [00:56:50] 4 constantly coming to events, trying to trying to learn, trying to get better and all that. And the others [00:56:55] aren’t, you know, like it’s it’s a mindset thing around. And I think it’s to do with improvement. [00:57:00] And I think if you don’t, the thing about dentistry is if you don’t improve, you start to hate [00:57:05] it. That’s that’s the that’s the thing.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. If you get I think if.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

[EVERYONE]: Sorry. [00:57:10]

Vinne Attariani: If you if because it’s constantly dynamic, right? Dentistry. Dentistry now [00:57:15] is nothing that I learned when I like is completely different from when I qualified, you know, 2000 to now. [00:57:20] So if you’re not continually moving along, you’ll fall behind. You [00:57:25] start to feel, you start to doubt yourself. You see a bigger gap between what everyone’s [00:57:30] doing and what you’re doing. And I.

[EVERYONE]: Think that creates a.

Vinne Attariani: Fear. And you start.

[EVERYONE]: To fall [00:57:35] behind. Fall behind much.

Martin Attariani: It’s difficult to catch.

Payman Langroudi: Up.

Martin Attariani: And you’re like, just [00:57:40] give up.

Payman Langroudi: I fully stopped 12 years ago, and 12 years ago I did an Invisalign case. [00:57:45] And then the day before yesterday, I was looking at my wife planning an Invisalign [00:57:50] case, and I couldn’t believe how much that had moved on.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I knew. [00:57:55] I knew that it had moved on, but I didn’t believe how much it had moved on. [00:58:00] The design of the attachments and all this crazy stuff. Back then, it just said, [00:58:05] hey, stick it here and do that. And that was the end of that.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, it keeps you engaged, doesn’t it, as [00:58:10] well. Because if you don’t do all that, you know, go on the choruses, learn stuff, read stuff, go to showcases. [00:58:15] It does get. It will get boring. It will get boring like any other job, because you become comfortable [00:58:20] and you then can’t you can’t conform to change. And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult. Listen, [00:58:25] listen. I mean, we can sit here and say, hey, that’s the guy I am and all that, but there is the work to live type [00:58:30] of person and the live to work.

Vinne Attariani: Kind.

Payman Langroudi: Of person.

Martin Attariani: But again, you’re [00:58:35] talking about a profession where you can even be that guy and still, still be [00:58:40] good, still be okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good profession.

Martin Attariani: I love this profession. It’s got so many angles [00:58:45] to it that, you know, you can make whatever you want from it. You [00:58:50] can be a very driven and keep up to date with everything all the time. Or you [00:58:55] can come out from dental school and just do the work.

Payman Langroudi: Two days.

Martin Attariani: A week, and you still [00:59:00] be a successful dentist. Yeah, that’s what I love about this.

Payman Langroudi: Did you did you advise your [00:59:05] kids to become dentists?

Martin Attariani: Uh, so. I did. Yeah. [00:59:10] When they asked for my, uh, opinion. And I did [00:59:15] say to them that look, I think is, well, I probably [00:59:20] didn’t even need to say because they could see how much I loved the profession. But when it was [00:59:25] the time I did say to them, which I did to my two brothers, that’s why they are both dentists. My [00:59:30] two brothers, two younger brothers. They’re both dentists. From me getting them into dentistry, [00:59:35] because they were both Charlie was being completely different and and [00:59:40] Shahab was too young at the time. But I managed to get Charlie into dentistry. Uh, [00:59:45] and then after that, it became a bit more natural for, for my youngest to get into dentistry [00:59:50] as well.

Payman Langroudi: Did you advise your kids or would you advise your kids to become dentists? [00:59:55] Not that it helps, you know. Not that anyone’s listening to anyone.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah. Are you going to say no? [01:00:00]

Vinne Attariani: Do you know what I did with my, um. With my eldest? And [01:00:05] he just you know, one, he can’t stand the sight of blood. Okay. He used to worry him. He used [01:00:10] to come out. Just fair enough. He used to come for work, experience, spend. They they spent a lot of time [01:00:15] in dental practice as they were growing up because they, you know, we just wanted to take them in. We were on call or come [01:00:20] in after school and and he just did not used to like it. He just [01:00:25] did not see anything enjoyable about it. He can’t stand needles like, you know. So [01:00:30] needles blood wasn’t his thing at all. I thought, you know what, let him do what he wants to do. [01:00:35] Same as like Martin. Now, he did dentistry when he was after his first degree.

Martin Attariani: I [01:00:40] thought he was 29 when I started.

Vinne Attariani: I said, it’s not your first degree. Doesn’t have to be your last one. [01:00:45] So I thought, you know, he can do something he wants to do. Should he choose to change direction later. He [01:00:50] could always do it later. So it didn’t. It didn’t bother me that they didn’t want to do it.

Martin Attariani: But you can only advise them end [01:00:55] of the day, right? So it’s up to them and their interests, what they like.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve you’ve [01:01:00] been in the same practice for 17 years.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And how long have [01:01:05] you been at Houston Place?

Vinne Attariani: 13 years.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. 13 years?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, 13 years now.

Payman Langroudi: And Tiff talks about [01:01:10] this a lot about the best teacher being your own patients, seeing seeing [01:01:15] your own results. Yeah. And and yet I spoke to some young dentists and [01:01:20] they think the best education is moving around a lot to see how people run their practices. [01:01:25] You know, and I think I think, you know, there’s, there’s there’s some sort of benefit [01:01:30] in both ideas, both ideas. But in the short period that I did dentistry, that, [01:01:35] you know, some of the best lessons I learned were lessons taught [01:01:40] to me by my own crappy work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Martin Attariani: I think so.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:01:45] massive, isn’t it? It’s huge.

Martin Attariani: I think, you know, uh, I think it’s important [01:01:50] to be able to, um, see your [01:01:55] own work after.

Vinne Attariani: Yes, after, like ten years.

Martin Attariani: When you see your [01:02:00] work after ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: That’s when you can start your [01:02:05] thought process.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Am I being a good dentist or not? [01:02:10] With my work? And I think that’s that’s priceless to be in that position. [01:02:15]

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult to get that education anywhere else, isn’t it?

Martin Attariani: Yeah, exactly. [01:02:20] It’s good to probably when you start off to go different practices and everything. [01:02:25] Get as much as, you know, different.

Payman Langroudi: To different things.

Martin Attariani: Exactly. But I [01:02:30] think long term you would benefit from being in one place [01:02:35] and get to see your own work. I mean, you see, you know, beautiful cases on, on, [01:02:40] on social media. I want to see that case in ten years time because [01:02:45] we are working on people, and [01:02:50] it’s the long term result that counts. And you’re only going to see that [01:02:55] if you are at the same practice and you get to see, I mean, you know, I see [01:03:00] my own implants. I play 16 years ago. Mhm. You know, it’s it’s [01:03:05] teaches you invaluable, uh, information that I can.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention. [01:03:10] Yeah. That, you know, when I, I gave up um once [01:03:15] only once you give up, you realise what you miss. Yeah. Like exactly [01:03:20] what it is you miss.

Martin Attariani: Why did he give up?

Payman Langroudi: I was too.

Martin Attariani: Busy.

Payman Langroudi: I was too busy. I was.

Martin Attariani: Too busy. [01:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: I was I was too busy. I was doing one day a week for a long time. Then I had a crappy day. Forget [01:03:30] it. But, um, the other part of being [01:03:35] in the same place for a long time. What do I miss about being a dentist? Yeah. Is the conversations [01:03:40] with the humans? Yeah, yeah. And I know you two are humans, but right now, I [01:03:45] only speak to dentists. Yeah. Yeah, or mainly speak to dentists. And dentists are great. And I [01:03:50] love dentists. And you have a good time with dentists and, you know, barrel of laughs.

Vinne Attariani: Special type of people.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:03:55] seeing a patient every six months And especially in private practice, where [01:04:00] you have time to talk to people and talking to people is actually the biggest business builder. Yes. [01:04:05] You know, so talking is not only pleasurable but also profitable in private practice. [01:04:10] So it makes a hell of a lot of sense to really get to know your patients. You [01:04:15] you see lives of families. You see little kids grow up.

Martin Attariani: Kids a [01:04:20] uni now at my practice, you know, I see them. I’ve been seeing them since you were five.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:04:25] only stayed somewhere for five years. Was the longest I stayed anywhere. But, you know, in 17 years. Yeah. You’ve. [01:04:30]

Martin Attariani: You’re part of that community.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I don’t know, you’re the kind of guy that [01:04:35] you might. Let’s say I had to make you stop tomorrow. Yeah. You might miss the tech [01:04:40] as much as you miss the humans. Yeah. I don’t miss the teeth particularly. [01:04:45] I don’t miss necessarily the Meccano part of it. I don’t particularly I wasn’t [01:04:50] any good at treatment planning anyway. So I don’t miss any of that. And I know some people adore those, but I [01:04:55] 100% miss the human interaction? Yeah. Which was staying in one place. Makes a big difference. [01:05:00] Yeah. You know, and 13 years is a long time, too. Now, your situation is you’re sort [01:05:05] of in a partnership situation.

Vinne Attariani: Partnership. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I know Doug very [01:05:10] well. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very different. Right?

Vinne Attariani: It is very different.

Payman Langroudi: In some ways. It’s the [01:05:15] worst of all worlds. No.

Vinne Attariani: No. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So from [01:05:20] the perspective of you haven’t got control really, because you have to convince four other people.

Vinne Attariani: Do you know what [01:05:25] helps is that one, um, three of us are from the same university. So one [01:05:30] partner, Doug. Doug, who’s the year below me? Um, Paul was in the [01:05:35] year above me. And then the other partner, Charlie, is a mutual friend [01:05:40] of the other two. And, you know, we’ve all got the same. The same mindset.

Payman Langroudi: Same ethos.

Vinne Attariani: Same mindset. [01:05:45] Yeah. We don’t I mean.

Payman Langroudi: We’re very technical, aren’t they?

Vinne Attariani: All those we’re all kind of, [01:05:50] you know, digitally driven.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What a beautiful practice it is.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. It’s been there since the 1840s. [01:05:55] This fact is.

Martin Attariani: The oldest practices in the country.

Vinne Attariani: In the country. We just got noted [01:06:00] for. Yeah. And so someone, one of the local historians dug up all the history of it. It’s [01:06:05] a beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Town anyway, but it’s a.

Vinne Attariani: Beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful building in that beautiful.

Vinne Attariani: Town. We’re really proud [01:06:10] of the practice and its background and all our, you know, our team. So we [01:06:15] we we haven’t to date fallen out in all this time. Um, and [01:06:20] we come to decisions really quickly. So I think we we’ve all got the same mindset of what we, how we want the practice to [01:06:25] grow, what we want to do, where we want to see it in the future.

Payman Langroudi: And is there internal referral? [01:06:30]

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, there’s most of it’s internally. So I, so I, [01:06:35] I’m general dentist. I do my sort of favourite sort of treatments for patients [01:06:40] are doing all the cosmetic work and the Invisalign. So I do my focus on that. I don’t do [01:06:45] any implants, so I either give the implants to Martin to do or in-house. [01:06:50] So the implants, everything else I do myself. So don’t we refer [01:06:55] literally just the implants that I refer to the other partners? And then if they have Invisalign or, um, [01:07:00] some facial aesthetics as well. So then we pass it on to each other. We don’t tend to refer [01:07:05] out of house, so everything is done in-house. And then we’ve got we’re all milling and you [01:07:10] know, doing ceramics and we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, just to explain to someone who isn’t aware of [01:07:15] the sort of the arrangements of, um, of, I mean, is it one of these expense [01:07:20] sharing partnerships?

Vinne Attariani: So ours is an expense. So, no. So it’s an expense sharing partnership.

Payman Langroudi: Just explain [01:07:25] what that means to someone who doesn’t know.

Vinne Attariani: So we’re we’re four individual businesses, right. [01:07:30] So we any profit that we make is our own. So individually [01:07:35] but we expend share the staff um, and the common costs or the building [01:07:40] costs.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not even materials.

Vinne Attariani: So materials. So, so some of the basic materials we do [01:07:45] share. But then obviously if I’m doing I’m doing Invisalign, I that is a sort of a speciality. [01:07:50] So it’s my own expense. If the other partners are doing implants, that’s their own. [01:07:55] So yeah, pretty much everything else is shared. Uh, because we tend to do everything equally. We’re using the same [01:08:00] materials, the same composites, um, same, you know, root canal equipment. So [01:08:05] that’s all shared. And it works well. So we have a certain we have an equal number of hours [01:08:10] in the week dedicated to.

Payman Langroudi: So in a way you do have a lot of control over your own.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. [01:08:15] Oh yeah. So whatever I do my surgery is completely my own.

Payman Langroudi: Completely.

Vinne Attariani: Up to three days. You know, I do three days [01:08:20] of practice half a day and, um, Martin’s practice and then everybody works [01:08:25] what they want. The hours that were not working will have associates in or specialists in and [01:08:30] hygienists. I guess I.

Payman Langroudi: Just like added benefit of like if you’re away for a couple of weeks, [01:08:35] they can take care of your.

Vinne Attariani: Patients. That’s the joke. That’s the joke at the moment is that [01:08:40] everybody’s always on holiday, but they are.

Payman Langroudi: So every time I see you guys on social [01:08:45] media somewhere else in the world.

Vinne Attariani: But, um, we do like to travel, but do you like having [01:08:50] that? That, um, set up means that. Yeah, you can just be away and [01:08:55] somebody else will see all your emergencies. So I never worry about my emergency patients. The partners [01:09:00] will see them in the same way. If they’re off, then I will look after their patients, which is nice. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of the podcast.

Vinne Attariani: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. [01:09:10]

Martin Attariani: I didn’t know there was a dark part.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:09:15] have either of you read Black Box thinking?

Vinne Attariani: No.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. [01:09:20] Um, it’s basically it’s a book about plane crashes. And [01:09:25] it also talks about the similarity between a plane crash and [01:09:30] an incident in medical in hospitals. Yeah. And it contrasts the [01:09:35] difference between these two situations. When a plane crashes, they look at the black box, and then [01:09:40] they circulate amongst all the pilots in the world. What [01:09:45] happened in this crash so that no one else makes that mistake again. But [01:09:50] then in medical, we have and there’s no blame culture in it. In medical, [01:09:55] as soon as something goes wrong. And by the way, stuff goes wrong. You know, people die in operations. [01:10:00] All sorts of things happen, right? As soon as something goes wrong, blame comes into the equation. [01:10:05] And because blame comes into the equation, when we make a mistake, we tend to [01:10:10] hide it. We don’t tend to share it. We tend to be very ashamed of it somehow. [01:10:15] Yeah. And we don’t tend to share it. And hence what happens is I [01:10:20] don’t learn from Vinny’s mistakes. Vinny doesn’t learn from Martin’s mistakes. None of us learn from some guy in Scotland’s [01:10:25] mistake. So to buck that trend on this podcast, we like to talk about what comes [01:10:30] to mind when I say clinical error. What clinical error have you made? What have you learned from it? You [01:10:35] don’t make any mistakes. We all. [01:10:40]

Martin Attariani: Do mistakes. We all do mistakes. I couldn’t relate to the black box because when I [01:10:45] fly, it’s a little Cessna. We don’t have a black box.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you’re a pilot. Are [01:10:50] you a pilot?

Martin Attariani: Yeah, I’m a pilot. Pilot? License for about. What is it, ten years [01:10:55] now?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I just went flying with you. Do you know Jason Jason from FMC?

[EVERYONE]: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: I went [01:11:00] with.

[EVERYONE]: Him. Right? Super. Super fun. It’s good, it’s good fun. It’s good fun.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical error. [01:11:05]

Martin Attariani: I mean, we all do mistakes 100%. Obviously, I don’t think any dentist can [01:11:10] say I haven’t done any clinical error. Uh, it’s how you manage it. Uh, [01:11:15] but I do agree with you. I think the best.

Payman Langroudi: Course is on the actual.

Martin Attariani: Error. Yeah. Okay, [01:11:20] so the the best courses I’ve been to are courses where people do. [01:11:25]

Payman Langroudi: Show their failures.

Martin Attariani: Right? Exactly. Show the failures. So I agree with you that there should be [01:11:30] a bit, a lot more of that. Um, but I think it’s it’s the culture. [01:11:35] Yeah. Unfortunately that that we are exposed to. It’s [01:11:40] just very.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you the kind of error I’m not looking for. I’m not looking for. Oh, once I drop something [01:11:45] in someone’s.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: No, no. Look, I can give you an example where I learned from something was in my own [01:11:50] mistake, but it was a mistake. But this was this was. This was a quite a good one because it [01:11:55] was one of the dentists at the practice and and prepped the wrong tooth [01:12:00] on the wrong side, you know. So because it’s they both needed crowns. Um, [01:12:05] it was mis charted by the nurse. Maybe not double checked on the day, [01:12:10] started prepping it. Patient goes, okay, why are we doing this side? He’d already [01:12:15] done it by then, you know. And so because he shared that it [01:12:20] then makes you then think, okay, on the day of anytime I do a treatment now I’ve always asked the patient, what [01:12:25] are we doing today? As you know, sort of do you know what we’re doing today and double check it and make [01:12:30] sure I don’t make that same mistake. So that’s that’s stayed with me.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened with me? Back in the day of x [01:12:35] rays, the nurse marked the OPG left and right incorrectly. The patient didn’t [01:12:40] have any fillings in their mouth at all. I was doing the first ever filling on this patient. Seeing [01:12:45] this big hole in.

Vinne Attariani: That reminded me of something else, a mistake I made.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:12:50] drilling low right? Seven going. It’s strange. I’m drilling. Just. I can’t believe it. Because the [01:12:55] hole should be here.

[EVERYONE]: There’s nothing here. Keep going.

Payman Langroudi: Suddenly realise what’s going on.

Vinne Attariani: There’s [01:13:00] a mistake I made, actually. Well, I picked up a hand piece and this is in my [01:13:05] hair. Yeah, I picked up the hand. No, actually, it was when I became an associate. First year of associateship. [01:13:10] I picked it up, just started drilling. It’s all been set out for me, right? Yeah. And what happens? The. The [01:13:15] bird flies out.

Payman Langroudi: Flies out.

Vinne Attariani: The patient swallows it. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: This falls every [01:13:20] single time you pick up a hand.

Vinne Attariani: Single time I every single time I pick up any hand [01:13:25] piece I check and do not. I don’t just check once I check.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Even even three and [01:13:30] one tips I three and one tip sometimes worry me I check them every flies out. It does [01:13:35] not ever get picked up now and just used. No way.

Payman Langroudi: Okay so while you think about this? [01:13:40] I like those two. I do like those two because they’re two learning points, right? They’re too important. But while. While [01:13:45] Martin tells me his one. I want you to think about your most difficult patient.

Vinne Attariani: Oh. [01:13:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah? The one you know, the one that you know. When you see them in the diary, you’re like, God, [01:13:55] I don’t want to treat this patient.

Vinne Attariani: I wasn’t difficult to treat because of [01:14:00] their attitude.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like a management error. Like a management situation. [01:14:05] Martin, what comes to mind when I say clinical error to you?

Martin Attariani: Uh. I [01:14:10] mean, apart from what Vinny said, I touch wood. [01:14:15] I haven’t done any major errors as such. Uh, apart from. Yes, [01:14:20] the burrs coming loose or I have enjoyed the wrong tooth. Not [01:14:25] just yet. Uh, I probably did on Monday night because we’re talking about it. Uh, [01:14:30] but it’s been cases where I’m probably misjudged. Um, I [01:14:35] remember this NHS patient who came to me for [01:14:40] a crown, for example. And um, and um, she had a root [01:14:45] canal done somewhere else and she came to me and um, the [01:14:50] NHS dentist had said to her that, um, you can’t [01:14:55] have a crown on this. Uh, it’s not enough tooth left. And, uh, um, [01:15:00] she came to me and I said, no, no, I can [01:15:05] make a crown work on this for you. Uh, and I did the crown, and then she came [01:15:10] back. Probably eight months later. The tooth was completely gone down to gum. [01:15:15] So the whole core just just broke off, and then that escalated to patient [01:15:20] complaining. So that’s probably the one that sticks out.

Payman Langroudi: But then what.

Martin Attariani: Happened that just. [01:15:25] Well, um, it ended up with me just returning her [01:15:30] money back for that crown, and, um, I offered implants, so I said, [01:15:35] if you’re happy, come back for free. Not for free. So I return her money. I explained [01:15:40] the end of the day. Uh, it is a tooth with an existing root canal. [01:15:45] So it can happen. Uh, but I can’t, you know, uh, there’s no.

Payman Langroudi: How did [01:15:50] she take it? Was she happy with it?

Martin Attariani: She was. Well, she was happy by the time I said, what? Have your money back?

Payman Langroudi: Basically, [01:15:55] yes. And that was it again. That’s such a happy ending. I’m looking for an unhappy ending.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. Touchwood, [01:16:00] Touchwood. I haven’t had any unhappy ending.

Payman Langroudi: This many years in [01:16:05] practice. There must have been some unhappy endings, I mean.

Vinne Attariani: Well, I’m trying. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: If you want to keep going until.

Martin Attariani: You. [01:16:10] If you’re looking for a GDC case, we.

[EVERYONE]: Don’t have a.

Payman Langroudi: Gdc [01:16:15] case. I’ve had a happy ending.

Vinne Attariani: I had a fitness to practise inquiry.

Payman Langroudi: Are you happy to [01:16:20] talk about it?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I think so. Well, we can see. Right. Um, so this was back in [01:16:25] when I worked at Vandals. Yeah. And it was. I took [01:16:30] a tooth out on a patient, a Periodontally involved [01:16:35] tooth straightforward extraction. Heavy smoker. Right. And gave [01:16:40] him the usual instructions don’t smoke, you know, no rinsing, blah blah blah blah blah. [01:16:45] And then a few months later, I got a fitness [01:16:50] to practice letter from the GDC saying that no, no complaint from the patient, [01:16:55] no indication of anything, you know, upsetting or untoward [01:17:00] and saying that, um, you because I did not give him post-operative [01:17:05] instructions and he got an infected socket so that that was and [01:17:10] you know what I looked at, I was absolutely shocked. I was like, fitness to [01:17:15] practice. Okay. Wasn’t even like, this is being investigated. It was a full on this is going to, [01:17:20] you know, be quite dramatic.

Payman Langroudi: When you see those words.

Vinne Attariani: It was it was it was a week [01:17:25] before my birthday. It was a week before my birthday. And I thought it was the worst time. Like I was completely [01:17:30] shocked. And, um, I mean it all. It was absolutely fine because in the end, [01:17:35] you know, I went to my indemnity print out the patient notes, and there was a, you know, [01:17:40] obviously I had in the records I’d given him the information. We print out a handout [01:17:45] that explains not to smoke. It was all in the record. So it was all, you know, written off and [01:17:50] and it was fine. But just that process of being given a document like that, [01:17:55] you know, is you all of a sudden you see your career and your life just drain away. [01:18:00] You just think what is going to happen here because that is the biggest nightmare. You know, it’s only because my [01:18:05] record keeping obviously was all there that I was fine. But I can’t believe that it just the patient was able [01:18:10] to just go straight to the GDC without being kind of told that, look, you should go to the practice, [01:18:15] go see the resolution. And he’s a smoker. He probably he I think he was someone who smoked, like, you [01:18:20] know, 10 or 15 a day who was not going to be able to comply to instructions that are given to them [01:18:25] after after an extraction. And it was nothing worthy of taking, you know, [01:18:30] to that that degree of that far. But it was it was really worrying [01:18:35] and upsetting. Yeah. The stress that it caused.

[EVERYONE]: You know.

Martin Attariani: Through is unbelievable.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:18:40] about you? What would you say is your hardest patient or one that comes to mind?

Martin Attariani: Yeah, it [01:18:45] was one patient. Uh, cosmetic case crown trying [01:18:50] to think this is probably 7 or 8 years ago. Top left one. [01:18:55] And I just could not satisfy this lady.

Payman Langroudi: Single crown. [01:19:00]

Martin Attariani: Single tooth, single crown. Yeah. Back and forth. Maybe 20 or 30 times. [01:19:05] Oh, but, you know, it just turned into nightmare to the point [01:19:10] that I would I would be happy to just give him money and say, please just go somewhere else. But [01:19:15] I kept trying to please her and nothing was good for her. And [01:19:20] today she she was happy enough not to come back anymore. Was the happiest day. It [01:19:25] was like, oh my God. Thank God for that. So we all get those type of patients who [01:19:30] are so fixed on just one tooth. I remember thinking, [01:19:35] how can you be so fixated on one tooth? I [01:19:40] mean, I’m a dentist, you know? For me, details are important. But, you know, you’re whole. [01:19:45] You’re obsessed with this tooth. Yeah. There’s so much more to life than what?

Payman Langroudi: What [01:19:50] you think it needs to be talked about. I mean, you’re both involved in cosmetic. Cosmetic dentistry. Cosmetic [01:19:55] dentistry has a massive psychological element.

Martin Attariani: That’s exactly what it was with this lady.

Vinne Attariani: It was managing [01:20:00] the expectations. Which is. Which is a big thing. I think one one thing that I’ve learned, um, [01:20:05] with experience, and I suppose sometimes you do get things wrong on occasion, [01:20:10] which you learn from, um, is when to say, no, I’m not going to do it. I refuse patients. [01:20:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the more and the more experienced you are, the more you’re sort of spidey sense. Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I’m I’m there. [01:20:20] I’m I’m. I am judging that patient by their words, their actions. [01:20:25]

Payman Langroudi: Are there things that you’re saying? Because one thing I learned, for instance, one thing I learned when I was a dentist, I’d done [01:20:30] some veneers. The patient was super happy. Nurse was over the moon. That looks [01:20:35] amazing. Everyone was happy. Went away. Came back? Don’t like them anymore? Why? Someone [01:20:40] family member doesn’t like them? Yeah. Then after that, that situation [01:20:45] always at fit. I would say someone in your family is not going to [01:20:50] like them and prepare them for that. But don’t worry, they’re not used to you like this. And and you know [01:20:55] that that came into my routine.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So do you with cosmetics, with Invisalign. I mean, people become. [01:21:00] We did it ourselves with our own kids. Actually, people become incredibly picky.

[EVERYONE]: Yes. At the [01:21:05] end of all.

Vinne Attariani: Amazing. I was talking about this with my nurse yesterday because it was this young girl and [01:21:10] completely transformed her smile. And I was showing her before and afters and and I was saying to my nurse said, [01:21:15] the girl’s still not happy, the patient’s still not happy. There’s the tiniest.

[EVERYONE]: Tiniest.

Vinne Attariani: Tiniest [01:21:20] little bit with this lateral, the lateral that was completely behind the bite 18 months ago, [01:21:25] it didn’t even exist.

Martin Attariani: Transformation.

Vinne Attariani: But look at this. Right. And I’ve got to the point. [01:21:30] Are you something you said to me once? Right. I actually use this one on patients. [01:21:35] I say to them, look, God couldn’t get your teeth perfect. Yeah, I’m [01:21:40] not going to be able to get them. I’m not God. I actually, I have used that line. I have used that. But [01:21:45] but I say that I say to patients when I do Invisalign, I said, look, we’re going to get your teeth 90% there. [01:21:50] I said, they’re not going to be 100% perfect. And I tell them that from day one. [01:21:55] You know, it’s very.

Martin Attariani: Important to manage patient expectations. And that’s where you learn [01:22:00] as, as a or you have to learn as a, as a cosmetic.

Vinne Attariani: I never promise.

Martin Attariani: You have to [01:22:05] under promise and over deliver. I think that’s, that’s. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I was speaking to someone whose whole life is, is Smile Designs. [01:22:15] And she said to me that she tells patients that if we’re lucky [01:22:20] the second time, we’re going to get it right. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. As a, as a general [01:22:25] says that to all the smart design patients so that if it’s right, first [01:22:30] time people are over the moon, you know, so, so that if it gets to the second time [01:22:35] told you that if we’re lucky. So it can go to a third time if you want without anyone [01:22:40] questioning it. And it’s just a simple thing to say. Right. That kind of gives you some sort of latitude [01:22:45] for that issue that might suddenly come up. Because one [01:22:50] awful thing, I mean, the two awful things about being a dentist. I think, number one, whatever [01:22:55] amount of consent you go through, the patient can afterwards say, I didn’t understand.

Vinne Attariani: I have the perfect [01:23:00] case. It is so upsetting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s one. And the other one is whatever you do, the patient [01:23:05] don’t like them. There’s no way out of those two situations in dentistry. [01:23:10]

Vinne Attariani: Consent forms don’t. They don’t help you. They don’t protect you. At the end, if the.

Payman Langroudi: Patients didn’t understand.

Vinne Attariani: There’s.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing.

Vinne Attariani: You can say [01:23:15] about what patients said to me. Owes me a large amount of money. Yeah. Was very happy when the [01:23:20] treatment was finished. Yeah. Very happy a week later, two weeks later, a month later, and then just [01:23:25] came back all of a sudden and says that, oh, I’m not happy, and then gave his reasons. Right. And, [01:23:30] um, and there was an issue about the casting, and he threw out at the end that I didn’t [01:23:35] understand what I was signing. And this is a very educated person, okay, who [01:23:40] works in a well-known company, is head of a massive, um, fitness [01:23:45] department. And it was extremely upsetting because he [01:23:50] basically walking away from a large bill, saying that I didn’t understand.

Payman Langroudi: How large was the.

Vinne Attariani: Bill ten [01:23:55] K plus? Well, for me.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a lot of money.

Vinne Attariani: Which is a lot of money.

Payman Langroudi: If.

Vinne Attariani: It was a couple [01:24:00] hundred pounds, but he hasn’t paid to this date. And I said, tell you what, don’t [01:24:05] pay. Let’s make you happy. Let’s correct these little issues that you’re not happy with. [01:24:10] Yeah. Um, didn’t come back for that correction appointment and just hasn’t paid, but is [01:24:15] the teeth are perfect beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: You know, now you’re you’re implying there that he was trying [01:24:20] it on to save the ten grand. Yeah, but yeah, you have to have you have to have an [01:24:25] element of your of your management that says, I will allow the odd guy to try it [01:24:30] on so that the guy who isn’t trying it on doesn’t make me. I don’t think [01:24:35] he, like, feels like he’s trying it on. Yeah, we have it all the time. Enlightened B1 guarantee. [01:24:40] Yeah. Yeah. You can take two pictures before send them. Didn’t change colour. Yeah. I’m [01:24:45] sure many people do it. I’m sure of it.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, okay.

Payman Langroudi: I know a few people who have done it. I’ve had people [01:24:50] tell me they’ve done it. Yeah, but to get that through to our team. Yeah. [01:24:55] That treat everyone as if they’re not lying. Even if you think they are. So that when [01:25:00] the odd guy or the many, whatever, whoever who’s a really good, honest [01:25:05] customer of ours says it didn’t work. That guy is treated not like a liar, not like [01:25:10] a criminal. We’re not going to prove it to me that there’s no way of proving it anyway, right?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, it’s [01:25:15] difficult.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s important. It’s an important thing to note. Now, maybe you knew this guy in the sixth sense. And you, you [01:25:20] know, you know, he’s trying it on.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: But but but.

Vinne Attariani: But.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I find that one [01:25:25] of the biggest challenges I have with the team. You know, our customer care team is [01:25:30] I’m telling them, even if you think someone’s pulling it off, pulling the wool over your eyes, let [01:25:35] that one go. Let that one go so that our great customers never feel that way. [01:25:40]

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s almost like cost of business, you know?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. And you learn from that. I mean, normally [01:25:45] we have treatments paid in full beforehand, you know, and then this was a bit of a special [01:25:50] patient. And I thought, you know what? We’ll leave it till the end. And I think the ones, the ones that the one time [01:25:55] that you try.

Payman Langroudi: It always.

Vinne Attariani: Happens. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: That always going to be.

Vinne Attariani: It’s always. It’s always influencer [01:26:00] Instagrammer type ones. They’re the ones I get the most trouble with. Yeah. They’re the ones [01:26:05] that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about as business owners? I mean, sometimes a [01:26:10] bit lonely being a business owner, right? Um, you’re a single handed business owner. I [01:26:15] mean, I’ve got partners and I often think about it. And of course, with partners you have to share the profits. [01:26:20] That’s an important point. Yeah. But when things are going wrong, [01:26:25] when, when when someone leaves unexpectedly for the sake of the argument, in [01:26:30] our world, things that go wrong. Sometimes the cardboard is the wrong shape or whatever. When things [01:26:35] are going wrong, partners are so important. And I often think about it if I was on my own [01:26:40] in this situation, sometimes it’s like management versus staff kind of, you [01:26:45] know, intrigue, you know, what’s your darkest day in that sense? Like what [01:26:50] comes to mind, like from the business aspect of owning a practice for 17 years? [01:26:55] Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What challenges you? I mean, you just did your place up. I bet that was a challenge.

Martin Attariani: Um, [01:27:00] so I bought the business [01:27:05] from my best friend who actually said the practice up.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [01:27:10]

Martin Attariani: Uh, from scratch in 2001 and 2008. He said, I want to sell [01:27:15] and move back to Sweden, and it was an easy choice to just buy [01:27:20] it off him because I knew it was well set up practice. He was [01:27:25] educated or he had his degree from Sweden, so we had same type [01:27:30] of, uh, approach to dentistry as a whole. Um, but the one [01:27:35] thing that’s been challenging for me since I’ve had my wife there, obviously it’s [01:27:40] been a lot easier, but the times that I was there just by myself, [01:27:45] only that was, has been quite challenging to be by yourself and [01:27:50] having to do everything. Even if you got your practice manager, it still can [01:27:55] be quite lonely. Many times as a dentist, it’s lonely. The times you’re not [01:28:00] there, you’re still on your phone trying to manage the business.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Um, [01:28:05] and, um.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve never had associates?

Martin Attariani: I’ve never had associates on purpose. So on purpose, [01:28:10] I think. I think the best setup is in dentistry is the setup I have, [01:28:15] uh, business wise. Not that I’m a great businessman, but [01:28:20] I think, um, and I have, you know, discussed that with many other dentists [01:28:25] who does have different size of businesses and practices. I [01:28:30] think if you got one dentist, one hygienist and one [01:28:35] therapist therapist, which is what I have now, you’ve probably got the best, um, setup [01:28:40] for a dental practice at the most profitable, um, business. [01:28:45] What, and you start to take on associates. It’s just obviously [01:28:50] it’s, in a way your profits. Uh, and it just adds a lot of headache [01:28:55] to your business as well. Yeah. And I think, uh, again, not that I’m an expert, [01:29:00] but I think you need to go beyond maybe 4 or 5 associates to [01:29:05] start to, you know, make it feel that it’s it’s Is worthwhile. [01:29:10] Once you’ve been there in one practice for 17 years, uh, [01:29:15] you don’t need to do any marketing. And I haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:29:20] word of.

Martin Attariani: Mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t done a certain.

Martin Attariani: After that time, you just get patients coming through [01:29:25] the door. So it’s either you turn them away or you just take [01:29:30] them on. And I, I don’t like turning people away. I’ve never said I’m not [01:29:35] taking any patients on. I work harder, but I don’t. I think that’s the worst [01:29:40] thing you can do as a business to send people away. Yeah. So I take them [01:29:45] on and then I just explain. Look, it’s a long waiting list, if you don’t mind waiting. Uh, [01:29:50] I can see you, you know, um, as soon as possible. And [01:29:55] people tend to stay on because they’ve come through word of mouth. They [01:30:00] want to be seen by by us. And it works.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:30:05] Beautiful practice to. I’ve been to both of your practices, but I haven’t been to yours since the the refurbishment. [01:30:10] Since even then, when I went, it was a nice place. Very [01:30:15] old building listed.

Martin Attariani: Very, very character to it.

Payman Langroudi: Is it.

Martin Attariani: Listed? It is. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, that [01:30:20] must be a nightmare doing that up, right?

Martin Attariani: It was, it was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was extraordinary what you’ve [01:30:25] done with it. I saw the pictures. Um, it’s like ultra modern and an ultra old [01:30:30] building. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, yeah. It’s such a nice contrast. Yeah, but I had we [01:30:35] had amazing feedback from the patients having we had extreme good feedback [01:30:40] and, uh, I think, uh, the setup is we’re very [01:30:45] happy with the setup we have now.

Vinne Attariani: It’s good. It works. Well, um, and it’s nice [01:30:50] patients. I mean, people want to come to modern practices now. They want to see that your your [01:30:55] practice is is pretty, it’s clean. It’s got all the they’re expecting to see high tech [01:31:00] gadgets now people people come in asking for oh I want a digital scan. I don’t want an [01:31:05] impression. We get patients coming up. They come because they just want cerec. I only want cerec. You [01:31:10] do cerec so they know about it.

Martin Attariani: So many people.

Vinne Attariani: Come.

Martin Attariani: And ask.

Vinne Attariani: You get [01:31:15] so many that just want enlightened. You know, they want to come here. They look it up [01:31:20] on the internet also.

Payman Langroudi: The great thing is, let’s say the patient has never, ever seen a scanner before. Yeah, they’re the [01:31:25] best, right?

Vinne Attariani: It blows their.

Payman Langroudi: Minds. Totally blown away by it.

Martin Attariani: Like every single new [01:31:30] patient.

Vinne Attariani: Now there’s no way someone took my scanner away. I think I would just stop dentistry.

Martin Attariani: Every [01:31:35] single new patient gets an arterial scan, and we show them on [01:31:40] the screen explaining everything. And once you do that, there [01:31:45] are stuck with you. They want to be with you. Honestly, you don’t [01:31:50] need to sell yourself. Just. They get so impressed. [01:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: I’m surprised you went for itero. Not three shape someone like you.

Martin Attariani: So we got. We got three [01:32:00] scanners. We got. We got three scanners. Between the two of us. I think we got [01:32:05] all the brands, essentially.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I got 3 in 1, my one surgery. So [01:32:10] I got the blue, the cerec itero and the three trials.

Martin Attariani: Wow. [01:32:15]

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, I use all three.

Payman Langroudi: For different situations.

Vinne Attariani: Literally all day. We [01:32:20] just use it for different.

Martin Attariani: Uh, you know, treatments that we do, basically.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, forgive me for [01:32:25] not knowing, but the both Itero and trios have that [01:32:30] feature where you can see the tooth wear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That must be useful.

Vinne Attariani: It’s amazing. [01:32:35]

Martin Attariani: It’s really good.

Vinne Attariani: It is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: What are the what are the little fancy things does it do that I’m not aware of? [01:32:40]

Vinne Attariani: Well, the.

Payman Langroudi: Things like that, that.

Vinne Attariani: It is like, um, simulations for Invisalign. [01:32:45] So you can just press a button, right? But the three shape does it as well. Oh, really? Yeah. Three shape does it [01:32:50] as well. And, um, you can do a small design on on the [01:32:55] copy.

Martin Attariani: I do a lot of copy teeth carries. Let’s put.

Vinne Attariani: It this.

Payman Langroudi: Way. Copy the [01:33:00] shape of copy.

Martin Attariani: So I had a patient just two days ago and broken, uh, [01:33:05] tooth. Uh, no. Sorry. No, uh, secondary caries on on a tooth. [01:33:10] Yeah. Uh, which, uh, is is retention, which is retention for his his [01:33:15] cobalt newly made cobalt chrome denture. Yeah. That, uh, he had done, uh, before [01:33:20] he came to me. So, um, he came and I said, well, we have to [01:33:25] replace you need a crown on this tooth. And, uh, obviously [01:33:30] having a cobalt chrome straight away, he was like, well, I just had my, um, denture [01:33:35] denture made. I said, don’t worry, I’m just going to copy your tooth exactly how it [01:33:40] is. And, you know, that’s a technology that you can’t see any other way. So [01:33:45] I did that in front of. I’ve done that over the years, many times.

Payman Langroudi: I did it [01:33:50] for him as well.

Martin Attariani: So I scanned the.

Vinne Attariani: Tooth copy.

Martin Attariani: Before I prepped.

Vinne Attariani: It. [01:33:55]

Martin Attariani: And I just copied that into the new crown. And, you know, the [01:34:00] the, um, cobalt chrome went on.

Payman Langroudi: There a few times where I think, God, I wish I could go back and be [01:34:05] a dentist. You got me there. You got me there for a second there. That’s interesting. [01:34:10]

Martin Attariani: It’s it’s priceless, you know? Yeah. It’s priceless because it was, like, perfect [01:34:15] fits straight away.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t hear your practice management nightmare moment. [01:34:20] What was that?

Martin Attariani: Um.

Vinne Attariani: What’s that?

Martin Attariani: Practice [01:34:25] management nightmare.

Vinne Attariani: What is what?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, like a business nightmare moment. [01:34:30] It could have been, I don’t know, a leaky roof suddenly became a situation someone left [01:34:35] unexpectedly. Like, not a clinical error. A business owner’s [01:34:40] error.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It comes to mind.

Vinne Attariani: Stuff.

Martin Attariani: That stuff leaving many times, [01:34:45] right?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. We’ve had a practice manager leave to another practice and steal all our [01:34:50] data and all our data files and policies, patients notes, no procedures. [01:34:55] Oh, so the printing off everything stuff? Yeah. Just printed [01:35:00] everything off and took it to the new practice with her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: Practice manager.

Payman Langroudi: Practice manager is one [01:35:05] of those jobs, right? I had the CEO of Bupa sitting here, and he said he’s a veteran [01:35:10] of insurance, uh, company. You know, like insurance products. And he said [01:35:15] practice manager is one of the hardest jobs he’s ever seen. Yeah. Considering what [01:35:20] different things they have to take care of. Right. And if a practice manager suddenly disappears. [01:35:25] Yeah, it’s like the heart of the business suddenly disappearing, right?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: I can think [01:35:30] of, um, actually, one of the hardest things, actually, when I think about [01:35:35] it now. Yeah. It was when CQC was introduced. Um. Oh, God. [01:35:40] The evenings and weekends that I. We spend [01:35:45] time.

Vinne Attariani: On.

Martin Attariani: Inspection. No, just just when it kicked in. Do you remember you [01:35:50] had to add all.

Payman Langroudi: The for all the compliance companies existed? Yeah. You couldn’t just push it, like, [01:35:55] buy it in?

Vinne Attariani: No.

Martin Attariani: Yeah, exactly. All of a sudden you had to have all sorts [01:36:00] of policies and procedures in place and distress and [01:36:05] the unknown. We didn’t even know what was required and nowhere to even [01:36:10] get help from because nobody knew nobody. Yeah, that was very [01:36:15] stressful. Stressful times, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: And Covid.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, Covid. [01:36:20]

Martin Attariani: Was.

Payman Langroudi: As a private dentist, you got nothing, right?

Vinne Attariani: Nothing? Nothing. No. [01:36:25] Not nothing. Not even like any business rate relief. Nothing. Our staff were all [01:36:30] furloughed.

Payman Langroudi: You did. You got that?

Vinne Attariani: What? We didn’t get anything. The staff got paid. Yeah. [01:36:35] Yeah, we.

Payman Langroudi: So you were just like us in that situation?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. We just had.

Payman Langroudi: Zero income.

Vinne Attariani: Zero income. And it got to the [01:36:40] point that if it went on for another month, it would have had to actually personally start paying into [01:36:45] the business.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Because the the first time your staff were earning more than you.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, exactly. [01:36:50] Our staff were earning more than me. That was strange. But do you know what? Because we have we have a practice Plan. [01:36:55] Right. The that that that ticked along that that.

Payman Langroudi: Plan.

Martin Attariani: As well. [01:37:00] Yes. Yes.

Vinne Attariani: That was a that was a saviour. If we didn’t have that we would have been in a lot [01:37:05] of trouble.

Payman Langroudi: My my wife’s an associate. Right. And you know, got nothing private. [01:37:10] Associate. Got nothing.

Vinne Attariani: Private. There is a lot about that. Wasn’t that private? Private associates. [01:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the. You know, I was there. We have a company. But I was [01:37:20] thinking, you know, if she was a single mom. Yeah, yeah. And for the. I think it was three months. Four months? [01:37:25] Yeah. Suddenly for four months, income gets taken out. Yeah. I think [01:37:30] I think if you earn over a certain amount, you got nothing. Yeah. So I guess that’s what they were thinking.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. [01:37:35] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’d be some suffering there, you know, that that could cause some suffering. There’s [01:37:40] some people just got forgotten, you know, self-employed people. Yeah. Self-employed people just got forgotten.

Vinne Attariani: Which is quite upsetting [01:37:45] because I was thinking, you know, we we take we employ 34 staff [01:37:50] members. Okay. Is a big team to furlough everyone else, to be [01:37:55] furloughed and to make an income, and then the business owner not to be given any [01:38:00] support. What are they going to come back to if that business owner had to close their business now because [01:38:05] during Covid they couldn’t, you know, couldn’t make things work. Where are those 34 [01:38:10] people going to go? What job are they going to go back to afterwards? And it was it was really frustrating.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think [01:38:15] they managed it that badly though, because if you talk to people abroad, many countries government did nothing. [01:38:20] Zero.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. Zero.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vinne Attariani: As us as like self-employed and business owners. We [01:38:25] didn’t get anything right?

Payman Langroudi: No. So, I mean, not even furlough?

Vinne Attariani: No. Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So [01:38:30] before the I mean, look, we learned all these new words, right? But before the word furlough came along. Yeah, we [01:38:35] sat down with our team and said, look, we’ve got two choices. We can either halve everyone’s salary or [01:38:40] we can lose half of you. Yeah. There was the only thing we could do. Furlough hadn’t been announced [01:38:45] yet. Right. Yeah. But it was clear everything was going to close. Yeah. And and and they [01:38:50] to their credit, they said, all right, we’ll all take half salary, you know. And then they announced furlough. [01:38:55] And, you know, that was great. But, you know, imagine imagine if there was no furlough. Yeah. [01:39:00] By the way, I mean, we’re paying for it now, right? Yeah, yeah.

Vinne Attariani: But again, it’s a business owners who [01:39:05] are paying for it. Again it comes back again. It comes out from um.

Payman Langroudi: But you said Martin, [01:39:10] you said that, you know, having done a lot of different jobs, you [01:39:15] see dentistry as a very good job compared to most of the other stuff [01:39:20] you’ve done. And you’re saying it more than the [01:39:25] love of teeth that you have. In particular, you’re saying that for in general you see it [01:39:30] as a good job. Yeah. At the same time, we’ve got this other pod. It’s called the Mind Movers. It’s about [01:39:35] mental health. We’re talking with Rona. We’re trying to get to. [01:39:40] Why? Why do dentists commit suicide? Why do dentists take their [01:39:45] own lives more than many other professional profession? Yeah. Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Look, [01:39:50] the reality is.

Payman Langroudi: There’s there’s there’s there’s a I [01:39:55] mean, we looked into it a lot. We’ve asked a lot of people, we’ve read a book, but it’s multifactorial. Yeah, [01:40:00] but what do you what do you think is the reason if it’s this brilliant job?

Martin Attariani: It [01:40:05] is a very [01:40:10] stressful job as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Why? I is because you [01:40:15] have to be so many different personalities [01:40:20] in one to deliver this job.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Business owner, [01:40:25] nurse, engineer, marketing guy. Yeah. Is this what you mean? [01:40:30]

Martin Attariani: Exactly. Yeah. The people.

Payman Langroudi: Dude.

Martin Attariani: People person. And you got so many [01:40:35] different people to to to satisfy. Yeah. [01:40:40] It’s just not about your patience, right?

Payman Langroudi: Your team.

Martin Attariani: Like you said, it’s your team, your [01:40:45] staff, your, uh, my CQC, GDC [01:40:50] you got so many eyes on.

Payman Langroudi: I could have a pizza.

Martin Attariani: Shop.

Payman Langroudi: Right? I’ve [01:40:55] got customers, I’ve got staff, I’ve got regulations like, you know, [01:41:00] hygiene regulations. Yeah, but pizza owner isn’t killing himself as much as a dentist. [01:41:05]

Martin Attariani: But you’re dealing with a different type of people, I think.

Payman Langroudi: As [01:41:10] in what patients.

Martin Attariani: Know, the the person as, as a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:41:15] see a perfectionist.

Martin Attariani: Yeah. It’s it’s a person who’s been through a lot to get where he [01:41:20] is. And he’s got a lot to lose if he loses.

Payman Langroudi: Brain surgeon.

Martin Attariani: His his [01:41:25] same I would say he.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t. Brain surgeons don’t kill themselves as much as um, Vinnie. [01:41:30]

Vinne Attariani: Does. I think [01:41:35] we’re really highly driven. We’re intelligent breed. Right. We are [01:41:40] very empathetic. We are very critical [01:41:45] of ourselves, I think, like, I’m probably describing myself. You know, I think we are as in nature. [01:41:50] We are very highly driven. We want to we want to perform. We want to do well. I [01:41:55] think we are taking a lot of risks. We’re dealing with people, their health, [01:42:00] their personalities. Anything can go wrong. I think we are, um, [01:42:05] regulated heavily, which makes you gives you the fear [01:42:10] of failing, fear of failure, fear of making the slightest mistake. [01:42:15] I don’t think any. I feel that no other profession is as heavily regulated or critically, [01:42:20] critically, kind of, you know, criticised or.

Payman Langroudi: Or.

Vinne Attariani: Or the newspapers. [01:42:25]

Payman Langroudi: Even in 1932, in Kansas.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists were taking [01:42:30] their lives in.

Martin Attariani: This is quite global. You’re right. What you’re saying is global.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:42:35] not just before there was so much regulation.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s something about the job. Yeah. Now. [01:42:40] Yeah. My. I told this to my cousin’s, uh, The eye surgeon, [01:42:45] and he sits in a dark room and and and he says when he treats [01:42:50] GA patients, at the end of the day, he’s relaxed. When he treats [01:42:55] LA patients, at the end of the day, he’s broken.

Martin Attariani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And and it makes some [01:43:00] sense, right? I mean, when the patients live and scared. Yeah. And in his [01:43:05] case, they’re scared, right? Sticking needles into their eye. And in our case, they’re scared. Yeah. Yeah. [01:43:10] And every move might make a thing. And you’re constantly on show. Constantly. You know, it’s [01:43:15] not like a, I don’t know, a lawyer or something. And see a customer. Then go and [01:43:20] think about it. Read a book, you know, look something up or whatever. We’re in and out, in [01:43:25] and out. Whether it’s 40 a day or three a day, it’s still you’re fully busy [01:43:30] in and out and you’re on show all day. Then in a room with [01:43:35] one person, your nurse, who maybe you don’t get on with. [01:43:40] Yeah. There’s plenty of that going on? Yeah. And then everything [01:43:45] you do kind of fails. Kind of not yours. Of course. [01:43:50]

Martin Attariani: I know, but that’s that’s exactly what I meant.

Payman Langroudi: This combination is.

Martin Attariani: Very stressful. [01:43:55]

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Martin Attariani: There’s so much happening. Yeah, just just imagine we [01:44:00] are working in a small field all the time. We’re doing microsurgery [01:44:05] every single day. And then you’ve got all this around as well. Like you said, [01:44:10] dealing with the patient with with the nurse that you might not like at the business [01:44:15] side of it, there is actually so much happening. So it only takes just one last [01:44:20] drop to make everything overflow.

Vinne Attariani: Is your capacity, isn’t [01:44:25] it?

Martin Attariani: And then if.

Vinne Attariani: Your.

Martin Attariani: Capacity.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, you you’re absorbing lots.

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:44:30] little micro.

Vinne Attariani: Problems. You’re doing the physical stuff. Yeah. You’re doing the.

Martin Attariani: Mentally.

Vinne Attariani: Dental. [01:44:35] Yeah. Mentally you’re there. You’ve got the medical care of the patient. You’re emotionally attached [01:44:40] to this patient. Right. The one you like now? I’ve been there 13 years. You’ve been [01:44:45] there 17 years. Patients tell you everything about them. You know, all the hardships, hardships they’ve [01:44:50] gone through. You know their good times, bad times. You feel their stress or anxieties. [01:44:55] You feel their happiness or so.

Martin Attariani: Much.

Vinne Attariani: Input. You are absorbing that [01:45:00] all day long. I think sometimes, like I was saying earlier about like Covid after Covid, [01:45:05] um, I found Covid really difficult. You know, I stopped watching the news. I have not watched [01:45:10] the news since Covid. I used to read the news every single day. I [01:45:15] haven’t got the capacity to absorb negative.

Martin Attariani: More negative.

Vinne Attariani: Negativity. [01:45:20] Yeah, because it made me really depressed. So I just stopped watching it. You know, I stopped asking [01:45:25] patients. Now, um, when I go collect them from the waiting room, I don’t ask them how they are. I never [01:45:30] ask, how are you? Because I know if they. If I say, how are you? They’re going they’re not [01:45:35] going to tell me good things. They’re going to Unload it because it is a bit of [01:45:40] a psychological visit for them. There is psychology with dentistry. I was saying the dentistry, the [01:45:45] actual doing, the filling all the mechanics is easy. Okay. It’s the patient. [01:45:50] It’s it’s it’s their emotions that day. Is is your nurse feeling happy? [01:45:55] It’s you know, it’s it’s all that it’s.

Martin Attariani: So.

Vinne Attariani: Much about the psychology of managing that person. That [01:46:00] person like I’ll see ten, 20 patients a day, but on [01:46:05] that one visit for that patient that day. Right. I’ve got to make sure that visit is comfortable. I’ve got [01:46:10] to make sure it’s pain free. I’ve got to make sure they like me. I make sure they don’t feel I’m stressed for any [01:46:15] reason, that they go out with a magical, great experience. You know, they’re comfortable. They’re going to come back and [01:46:20] see me. There’s so much going through your head. You don’t actually realise that your brain is just constantly [01:46:25] worrying, right? And we just adapted to that. You either can adapt and you’re okay [01:46:30] with it and you manage. You know, again, I think like having busy backgrounds, busy [01:46:35] lifestyles, managing kids, doing all that. Some some people are really good at being able [01:46:40] to control that kind of, you know, capacity of input. Other [01:46:45] people can’t, and I don’t think you realise it until you actually go through it, because they don’t [01:46:50] teach you that in dental school. You’re not told that, you know, you’re going to have difficult patients, you’re going to have patients who, [01:46:55] you know, I’ve got sexist patients, I’ve got patients who are, you know, have [01:47:00] an issue with me being a female dentist. Okay. That you you could you I’ve got [01:47:05] patients who. Yeah. I’ve got I’ve had racial slurs before, you know, in [01:47:10] my surgery. I’ve got all sorts of things that you just don’t learn that you [01:47:15] are going to you are, are almost acting, putting on a [01:47:20] persona for every patient. And then that is difficult to do.

Payman Langroudi: It wears you down in the long [01:47:25] run.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. It does, it does, it does. Because again, I’ve learned now the time [01:47:30] that I am not. It’s something that’s a bit of a skill set, I think I try not [01:47:35] to change myself. I’ve tried to change my patients. Into what? Into [01:47:40] how I am, if that makes sense. You know, kind of like I, I try to, um, get them [01:47:45] to adapt to me. And it’s because you’ve got time to do that now, once you’re in practice, right? [01:47:50] You you learn first that you’ll do everything. You’ll dive down and try and be all, you know, bells [01:47:55] and whistles for your patient. But then you realise you can’t, you can’t sustain. That is really hard to sustain. [01:48:00] So you try to get your patients to become conform to how you are as well. [01:48:05] And your methodology.

Payman Langroudi: Your patient base ends up like you in the long run.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah, yeah. You know, they’re more chilled. They’re [01:48:10] more relaxed. They you know, they.

Payman Langroudi: How many days do you.

Martin Attariani: Work. You don’t they they feel of you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you’re. [01:48:15]

Martin Attariani: Treating.

Payman Langroudi: Them how many days do you work.

Martin Attariani: So I do four days a week for four days.

Vinne Attariani: I [01:48:20] do three days at Houston and half a day at Martin’s practice. [01:48:25] I just do Invisalign and.

Martin Attariani: Well, we’ve worked six days a week before.

Vinne Attariani: When we.

Martin Attariani: Used. [01:48:30]

Vinne Attariani: To do.

Martin Attariani: Children’s private schools and everything. We were doing six days a week for maybe ten [01:48:35] years. 12 years. So we’ve been there as well.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure it’s a good idea.

Martin Attariani: Well, [01:48:40] we didn’t have a lot of choice, really. When you go, you know.

Vinne Attariani: Two young. [01:48:45]

Martin Attariani: Kids and two kids in private schools and everything. It was just [01:48:50] a. Yeah, it’s just a cycle.

Vinne Attariani: I used to do six days every other week. [01:48:55] Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Just couldn’t get out of it.

Payman Langroudi: But there is, there is a I mean, why didn’t you work seven days a week? If [01:49:00] you want to take it to its. You know, there is a there’s an optimum. Yeah. [01:49:05]

Martin Attariani: Well, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you work seven days a.

Martin Attariani: Week again? It was.

Payman Langroudi: Just it wouldn’t [01:49:10] have made sense.

Martin Attariani: Because one day you would.

Payman Langroudi: Have.

Martin Attariani: Had to dedicate it to the family then obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [01:49:15]

Martin Attariani: And you need that break. I mean, no, obviously six days is not ideal for suggesting [01:49:20] that.

Payman Langroudi: Four is correct when you’re working at the.

Martin Attariani: Level.

Payman Langroudi: At the level that you do.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: We’re very comfortable [01:49:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: No, no.

Martin Attariani: But it’s it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard work. You just went through it. Yeah. I mean [01:49:30] the stress management, the social side of it. Not to mention you’ve got three scanners [01:49:35] and full mouth rehabs and implants and sinus lifts and, you know, making sure everything [01:49:40] happens correctly. Lasers. You have lasers, I think. Yeah. Of course.

Martin Attariani: Lasers [01:49:45] to lasers.

Payman Langroudi: So four days a week at that level? Yeah. By the [01:49:50] way NHS as well because that’s bloody hard work. It’s taxing four days a week. I remember that [01:49:55] classic cliche 5 to 4. You make the same amount of money. Yeah. You know, because [01:50:00] you’re sharper. You’re finishing stuff off. You’re not temporising anything. [01:50:05] You’re a dirty word. You’re selling better because you’re sharper.

Vinne Attariani: Your experience. [01:50:10] Right? Yeah, I’m doing the same on three as I did on four and a half.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:50:15] So by the way, I tried to take that to three days a week to see whether I could, and I just couldn’t. [01:50:20] I just couldn’t make.

Vinne Attariani: It three days.

Payman Langroudi: A week.

Vinne Attariani: But you have you have to have if [01:50:25] you don’t have a work life balance, it’s all going to unravel as well. That’s sometimes what I [01:50:30] think. Being very determined. Most people aren’t professional. Very highly driven. And we will just [01:50:35] keep churning and working and working and taking work home. And there’s no cut off, especially if it’s your own business. [01:50:40] If it’s your own practice. There is no 9 to 5. It’s. Yeah. Into the evening, [01:50:45] into weekends. Right. But you have to you have to control that yourself. You know, [01:50:50] you have to have the time off. That’s why we travel a lot, you know, enjoy our evenings, [01:50:55] weekends. We’re always, you know, we’re not doing anything. Dental on the weekend. It’s just [01:51:00] me, Martin family go out, you know, sports, [01:51:05] holidays, and that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve we’ve come to the end of our time. [01:51:10] So we’re going to I’m going to end it with a quick, quick fire round that. I want to hear both of [01:51:15] your responses.

Vinne Attariani: Oh, gosh.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the best course you’ve ever been on?

Vinne Attariani: The [01:51:20] best course.

Martin Attariani: Um, I just I just saw [01:51:25] the enlightened sign And lighter and lighter and 100 Payman [01:51:30] composite makeover.

[EVERYONE]: What’s the right answer? No no no no. Come on. Do [01:51:35] you know what?

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind?

[EVERYONE]: So quick, quick quick quick. The best courses. [01:51:40]

Martin Attariani: For me are cadaver courses.

[EVERYONE]: Oh, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Implant.

[EVERYONE]: Cadaver.

Martin Attariani: Well, anything cadaver. [01:51:45] If it’s cadaver, the facial aesthetics course.

[EVERYONE]: The best.

Martin Attariani: Course.

[EVERYONE]: Ever.

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t know there was [01:51:50] such a thing.

Vinne Attariani: You did that. That was actually the hands on Holland. Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you. Who would you say is your hero [01:51:55] in dentistry?

Martin Attariani: Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

[EVERYONE]: Come on. Good. [01:52:00]

Vinne Attariani: I would say my husband.

[EVERYONE]: Really?

Vinne Attariani: Yeah. [01:52:05]

Martin Attariani: Oh.

Vinne Attariani: I have I have learned a lot from him. Even before we were together, actually. [01:52:10] And I think maybe that’s a call to your education in Sweden. It was a different. [01:52:15] It was just an eye opener of seeing things in a different viewpoint. You know, I still lean on him [01:52:20] for, for support with, um, cases and things. Yeah, I would say [01:52:25] that.

Payman Langroudi: Who would you.

[EVERYONE]: Say?

Payman Langroudi: Mentor.

[EVERYONE]: Um.

Payman Langroudi: I book [01:52:30] that you read.

Martin Attariani: I learned a lot from Stuart Harding, to be honest.

[EVERYONE]: Oh, really?

Martin Attariani: Yeah. [01:52:35] I did an MSC with him. Yeah. And I really look up to to him. He’s [01:52:40] very humble. He’s very good at educating. Yeah. And he’s very approachable. [01:52:45] And I do like people like that in dentistry. I think we should all be approachable, [01:52:50] uh, towards each other. And, uh, he’s he’s made a huge impact [01:52:55] in, in especially my implant work, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Favourite piece [01:53:00] of kit? I can’t live without. Scanner. Scanner. Scanner.

Martin Attariani: Uh, [01:53:05] I can mention three.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Uh, scanner. [01:53:10]

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Loops. And my foot operated, uh, chair. I [01:53:15] can’t be without them.

Payman Langroudi: Foot operated.

[EVERYONE]: Chair.

Payman Langroudi: So it.

[EVERYONE]: Goes up.

Martin Attariani: And down [01:53:20] with your foot.

[EVERYONE]: Pedal.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, it doesn’t move.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah, yeah.

Martin Attariani: I couldn’t work without these three. Honestly. [01:53:25]

[EVERYONE]: Am I psychic?

Martin Attariani: Okay.

[EVERYONE]: That’s four.

Vinne Attariani: He said one.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, [01:53:30] this is this is one of our final two questions that we ask everyone.

[EVERYONE]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy dinner party. [01:53:35]

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive.

Vinne Attariani: You go first.

[EVERYONE]: So I [01:53:40] would.

Martin Attariani: Probably have my dad, my granddad and my dad’s [01:53:45] granddad.

[EVERYONE]: For generations.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had that before.

[EVERYONE]: Interesting [01:53:50] idea.

Martin Attariani: Honestly, if I could, because you mentioned dead or alive, I think [01:53:55] I would get so much out of that conversation.

Payman Langroudi: What an interesting idea.

Martin Attariani: You know, um, [01:54:00] because life is experience. And imagine if you had [01:54:05] that sort of knowledge in your in, in in, in, in, in [01:54:10] your luggage through life. So that’s probably why I.

[EVERYONE]: Would.

Payman Langroudi: Say.

[EVERYONE]: Idea.

Payman Langroudi: What comes [01:54:15] to mind for me.

Vinne Attariani: Is a Captain America Thor and Iron Man.

[EVERYONE]: You [01:54:20] never had that before.

Payman Langroudi: Who was the third one?

Vinne Attariani: Iron [01:54:25] man.

Payman Langroudi: What’s that? I don’t even know what that is.

Vinne Attariani: They are the Avengers.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is he Iron [01:54:30] Man? Final question. It’s a deathbed question. On your deathbed, [01:54:35] surrounded by your loved ones. Three pieces [01:54:40] of wisdom. You can leave them with. What would that be?

Vinne Attariani: I [01:54:45] would say enjoy the journey. Don’t. [01:54:50] Don’t wind yourself up over worrying about tomorrow. It’s [01:54:55] all today.

Payman Langroudi: Live in the.

Vinne Attariani: Present. Everything is today. You can’t [01:55:00] think about tomorrow. It’s good to be thinking ahead. But your focus has to be day [01:55:05] to day. Because you don’t know if you’re going to be here tomorrow. My patients say this to me on the way out. I say, I’ll [01:55:10] see you in six months because they’re older. They’re like, oh, if I’m still here. And I always say, If I’m [01:55:15] still here because. Because I’ve got just as much, you know, chance as somebody [01:55:20] who’s, you know, in their 80s and 90s. So I think you just you have to enjoy today, just be present [01:55:25] with what you’re doing. Um, look after yourself before you look [01:55:30] after everybody else. Because if you’re not looking after you there, there is nothing [01:55:35] for anyone else. And that’s really important because that’s hard to do if you’re naturally a giver [01:55:40] or a giver, you know? Um, we’re again, we always give our time to everybody [01:55:45] else. You forget that you need that same kind of nurturing. Um, and [01:55:50] the third bit of advice. Have fun. [01:55:55] You know, it’s really important. Life is. Don’t take things so seriously. [01:56:00] Things aren’t as serious as you know. You think they are. Everything at the end of the day is [01:56:05] going to be a drop in the ocean. You know, one occurrence. Now you’re going to forget it. You know, [01:56:10] one bad time, you’ll hopefully forget it in three months or six months. In a year, it won’t be there anymore. So [01:56:15] sometimes you’ve just got to see the bright side of everything.

[TRANSITION]: I like this.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:56:20] comes to mind?

[EVERYONE]: Milton.

Martin Attariani: I would probably say, um, do [01:56:25] your best in in whatever you do. And that could be your job, your [01:56:30] your marriage, even a travel you do always do your best in what you do. [01:56:35] Because when you get to your last years of, of of life, you’re always going to people [01:56:40] tend I’m saying tend because I’m not there yet, hopefully. [01:56:45] But people tend to live with a lot of regrets. Yeah. And I think if you do your best in whatever [01:56:50] you do, you minimise that risk. Um, thinking, oh, [01:56:55] I wish I would have done that better or just do your best in whatever you do. Even your marriage. You know your friendship. [01:57:00] Do your best. Um, the second thing I would say is that what you don’t, [01:57:05] uh, wish for yourself? Don’t wish upon other [01:57:10] people. And I think that’s.

[EVERYONE]: Doesn’t treat.

Payman Langroudi: People as you wish to be treated yourself.

[EVERYONE]: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: So, you know, [01:57:15] um, that probably teaches you if you just follow by that rule, you just teach. It teaches [01:57:20] you to be a kind human being. Yeah. And again, when you get to those last, [01:57:25] uh, years of your life, you know, you start to analyse, maybe I should have [01:57:30] done that to this person. Or should I have lied to that person? Again, it’s it’s all about, [01:57:35] uh, preparing yourself for those last years or end of [01:57:40] your journey to feel that, you know, again, I did my best.

[EVERYONE]: I [01:57:45] treated.

Martin Attariani: Everybody nicely. But then the last thing I would say is travel [01:57:50] the world because we live on an. Well, probably the most [01:57:55] beautiful planet. And and unfortunately, I think it’s a shame [01:58:00] to leave this planet without having seen many places. That’s why we travel so much [01:58:05] past, uh, eight, nine years. I think we’ve been to 30, [01:58:10] 40 countries now. Or places. Yeah. Uh, you know, the more you travel, the more [01:58:15] you want to see.

Payman Langroudi: Add to that travel young.

Martin Attariani: Travel young I think at [01:58:20] any time. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Sure, but you.

Martin Attariani: Are getting older.

Vinne Attariani: My because we didn’t [01:58:25] have the opportunity. That’s what I’m saying. Ours was different.

Martin Attariani: So whenever you can obviously if [01:58:30] you can do young which the younger generation, by the way, are doing beautifully nowadays don’t they. [01:58:35] Yeah. Yeah I agree with you. Yeah. But at any time I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like what I mean is.

Martin Attariani: It’s [01:58:40] important for two.

Payman Langroudi: Reasons. Two reasons for that. Of course it’s important to see. Of course. Yeah. I really want to go to Peru [01:58:45] and I haven’t seen it yet. I would love to.

Vinne Attariani: We just came.

Payman Langroudi: Back. Oh.

Vinne Attariani: Yeah.

Martin Attariani: Do the Inca trail. [01:58:50] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I don’t know, but I sit on the train.

Vinne Attariani: We we [01:58:55] we did the Inca Trail.

Payman Langroudi: I was I want the ceviche, actually. But my point is, when you go [01:59:00] young anywhere, you haven’t yet made your mind up about everything.

Martin Attariani: That’s one thing to see. [01:59:05] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And number two, when you get to our age, you want five star stuff. And a five [01:59:10] star hotel in Lima is pretty much the same as a five star hotel in Moscow. You know what I mean? Like [01:59:15] you’re almost. You’re not, you know, you’re going to top restaurant. You know what I mean? You want comfort so much [01:59:20] that you prioritise comfort and you don’t really live with the people.

Martin Attariani: You don’t think it’s important to eat. So I [01:59:25] think it’s important to go see places, see cultures, see [01:59:30] people as they live, as they are.

Payman Langroudi: Because that’s why I like Airbnbs. Yes. [01:59:35] Kind of feel like.

Martin Attariani: There’s there’s so much it you know life [01:59:40] is is about perspective. Yeah. And we were talking about [01:59:45] suicide and everything. Yeah I think it’s important to have perspective in your life when [01:59:50] you feel that you’ve failed as a dentist. And this case is going to be [01:59:55] the ruin of me, I’m going to lose everything. I’m going to lose, you know, all my [02:00:00] money, this and that. If you got perspective, then you need to think, [02:00:05] okay, so what?

Payman Langroudi: Tomorrow you might be happy.

Martin Attariani: So what? I remember About [02:00:10] being in Kilimanjaro. And we were walking, uh, or we were travelling [02:00:15] through villages there and people living in, in just home [02:00:20] handmade homes with just literally a curtain as a door into [02:00:25] their homes. I mean, if people can live like that on this planet, [02:00:30] I don’t care. Even if I lose everything, uh, then [02:00:35] I’m still going to be fine. So then hopefully you don’t do what? You know [02:00:40] what you do. Uh, so I think that only comes when you’ve been exposed [02:00:45] to that, to when you’ve seen how other [02:00:50] people live on this planet and the way. Yeah. I think it’s really important because you [02:00:55] lose your perception as a dentist. You lose your perception, as you say. You get comfortable [02:01:00] with your five star hotels and nice car, this and that. But end of the day, what if you [02:01:05] lose everything? So what? You can work your way up again.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been such a brilliant conversation [02:01:10] I really enjoyed. I’ve learnt a lot as well really. I knew I would. Really, really lovely to have you both [02:01:15] in person.

Martin Attariani: Thank you for having us. It’s been a.

Payman Langroudi: Long time coming.

Martin Attariani: It has? Absolutely. [02:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much.

Martin Attariani: Thank you so.

Vinne Attariani: Much.

Martin Attariani: For having us.

[VOICE]: This [02:01:25] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [02:01:30] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:01:35] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:01:40] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [02:01:45] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we [02:01:50] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [02:01:55]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [02:02:00] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. [02:02:05] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Dr Mumta Jilka: And I think that was probably the biggest lesson. Mean you had that day, wasn’t [00:00:05] it? When our accountant sat us down and I remember just sitting there thinking, how [00:00:10] have we got here? Obviously now I know how we got there, but how are we going to [00:00:15] get back? And I think that was when it was like make or break. So you put [00:00:20] it’s almost like fight and flight mode. Like we were put in that situation. It was like, and you feel it because you’ve [00:00:25] got all these staff members to take care of, all these building costs, all these entities, and you’ve got a reputation [00:00:30] and it’s the reputation amongst like, you know, running the show and stuff. So it’s an immense [00:00:35] amount of pressure.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:40] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Damn it, Monty. [00:01:00] Welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast. And I think this is long overdue. And [00:01:05] what we’re going to do is just shoot the breeze, see where the conversation takes [00:01:10] us. And you guys between yourselves can decide who’s going to speak [00:01:15] when. Yeah. And I think it’s going to be really interesting. But what I want to get [00:01:20] down to, first of all, is before we talk about your Dental journey and Abbey House and [00:01:25] dentistry, I want, first of all, for [00:01:30] you to talk to me about your backstory, where you grew up and what your [00:01:35] childhood was like. Okay.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. So, um, my [00:01:40] backstory is so I was, uh, born and raised in Leicester. Um, [00:01:45] my parents owned a corner shop, and, um. Yeah, we just, [00:01:50] uh, my childhood was really just working with my mum and dad in the shop. [00:01:55] Um, I’ve got one younger sister and two younger brothers. Um, and it just used to be every [00:02:00] day you just help dad do paper rounds, load the shelves, talk to customers, [00:02:05] is that kind of stuff? Um, and, uh, I guess [00:02:10] that’s kind of where I started to develop kind of this entrepreneurial hunger, [00:02:15] maybe, like, I really enjoyed it. I love talking to customers, hearing [00:02:20] their stories. Um, and then. Yeah. And then, you know, dad always taught us that, you [00:02:25] know, you need to work hard. All the rest of it. My mom was having dental issues, but she’s a really beautiful [00:02:30] woman. And, uh, I guess that’s when I really felt it was like, oh, my God, someone helped my mom. [00:02:35] And then I just thought, I’ll just go for it myself.

Prav Solanki: So interestingly, I grew [00:02:40] up in a corner shop. And did you just a few questions [00:02:45] around that. Did you grow up living in the corner shop? Was your house at the back and upstairs? [00:02:50]

Dr Mumta Jilka: Upstairs. So we lived in a flat. There were 18 of us in one flat. 18, 18 [00:02:55] one eight. Wow.

Prav Solanki: Extended family.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Extended family was my grandma, [00:03:00] my granddad, and then my dad. His brothers, wives, kids, dog, [00:03:05] everyone.

Prav Solanki: And so when it came to working [00:03:10] in the shop, who decided who was going to do the shift or work, or did you just all [00:03:15] muck in as the family? How did that all work out?

Dr Mumta Jilka: So, um, we had [00:03:20] a few shops. Um, so each brother, each of my, like, my dad, my uncles, they all had [00:03:25] a shop each. Um, but we all had to just muck in. It was like whatever was needed. That’s where you were. [00:03:30] Even the kids mucked in. Even if it meant, you know, selling tobacco, even though [00:03:35] you weren’t old enough to sell tobacco, you’d sell tobacco.

Prav Solanki: It’s funny. I’ve got a story for you. [00:03:40] So when I was in the shop one day. Right, someone came in, and I must have been 11. [00:03:45] Yeah. And, um, they said I’d like to buy a bottle of Bell’s right. Whisky. [00:03:50] And I looked at him, goes, you’re not old enough.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Right. That’s an 11 year [00:03:55] old telling someone they’re not old enough to buy a whisky, right? And I would serve I would sell Belle’s whisky [00:04:00] to a 25, 50 year old or whatever. Right. And I find [00:04:05] it bizarre. Now that was telling someone they couldn’t buy it. Do you have similar stories?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Yeah, exactly [00:04:10] the same. I used to have to stand on, you know, those cases of Stella. I’d have two cases [00:04:15] of Stella. I’d stand on that, and I’d be serving you. And I’d be asking you for your ID, even though I’m, like, way underage. [00:04:20]

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just.

Dr Mumta Jilka: You did it, isn’t it?

Prav Solanki: Absolutely. Did you go to Cash and [00:04:25] Carry on the weekend? Oh my gosh.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yes. Cash and.

Prav Solanki: Carry. Pushing those big trolleys.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Pushing those big trolleys. [00:04:30] You know I must have developed biceps then as well.

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Dr Mumta Jilka: How crazy. [00:04:35] Like, you know, it’s crazy.

Prav Solanki: It’s it is. But what do you think that [00:04:40] has taught you about the way you deal with patience? [00:04:45] Because I, for one, feel that the reason my communication [00:04:50] skills are as good as they are is because I actually developed them in the shop [00:04:55] talking to people. I could talk to an 85 year old lady. I could talk to a little [00:05:00] kid. I could talk to a middle aged adult. Right. And I feel that those [00:05:05] skills were developed, actually, and nurtured as a child. That emotional intelligence [00:05:10] piece? Yes. What about yourself? What do you think you got from working [00:05:15] your sort of youth in the in the shop?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Just exactly what you’re [00:05:20] saying. So, you know, talking to children, talking to 70, 80 year olds, middle [00:05:25] aged people like you. Just. I was just developing skills and you had to, like, you had [00:05:30] to wow the customers. You had to talk to them. And, you know, you kind of develop this natural [00:05:35] kind of curiosity towards the people. So I think even in dentistry today, when [00:05:40] someone walks through that surgery door, I will still talk to them as if I’m in the [00:05:45] shop and just, you know, I keep, you know, very, um, keep it very humble, you [00:05:50] know, And I think that you can talk to people from all paths of life. It’s it’s taught me [00:05:55] so much just being in that shop at the time, I hated it. I couldn’t I couldn’t run away fast enough from it. Yeah. [00:06:00] But as I’ve got older, it’s like you end up utilising those same skills then more so [00:06:05] than what you’re doing learning nowadays. It’s crazy. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Um, did [00:06:10] you ever have any, um, like, dark [00:06:15] moments in the shop and any tough times, so. I I’ve [00:06:20] got one moment, and it’s when somebody came in and beat my dad up, and I was stood there watching [00:06:25] him getting beat up. Yeah. Um, because the [00:06:30] guy wanted the money from behind the till. Right. Did you ever have any, like, bad moments [00:06:35] in the shop and stuff like that? Yeah.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Ours was when we got broken into. Um, [00:06:40] and I remember, um, so we were getting ready. It was on a Saturday. [00:06:45] We were getting ready to do a paper round. And my uncle took me, So in our family [00:06:50] just depended on who’s doing what. So whether it’s your uncle taking you to the shop or your dad, you just went [00:06:55] with someone. And I remember driving up at the time. And then we saw that the shop windows had been broken into. [00:07:00] And at that time, I just felt really [00:07:05] scared. But also, why would someone do this? And more so seeing my uncle’s [00:07:10] face like, oh my gosh, we’ve got to run a busy day. Half the stuff’s gone. How [00:07:15] you know, how are we going to get this repaired? And I think you just felt like [00:07:20] you got back handed a bit. The rugs were taken off from under your feet, [00:07:25] and I felt it more for my family. I was just thinking. They work so hard. How is this [00:07:30] fair? And, you know, there was this concept of this is what happens, you know, when you’re working in this type [00:07:35] of a reality, this stuff is what can happen. So when you go to school, you make sure you work hard [00:07:40] so you don’t have to have days like this. And I think that that kind of philosophy has [00:07:45] been kind of ingrained into my head. I mean, it could happen to any of us, but it was a it was a moment [00:07:50] for for us. Definitely. When something like that happens, it can just shape you as a person, makes you [00:07:55] a bit more resilient. It does, isn’t it?

Prav Solanki: It does.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Do you have that? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean to see [00:08:00] that.

Prav Solanki: A lot of fear as well right. The crikey this can happen. And the message my dad [00:08:05] always said to me is I don’t want you to do this.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yes.

Prav Solanki: To get a proper education. I want to go [00:08:10] to university. And I want you to have a better life.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Than I did. Yes. [00:08:15] And this is why I’m doing what I’m doing. Did you have any kind of messages from your folks in terms of.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, exactly [00:08:20] what you were saying. It literally was. You know, we don’t want you to be doing this. You know, it’s [00:08:25] very labour intensive. Long hours. You know, you’d open at seven, finish at nine, you’d have your dinner [00:08:30] at nine and you wouldn’t even see my dad. Parents didn’t really spend any time with us because we were just working away. [00:08:35] And it was like, just do this one thing. Make sure you study hard, make sure you get an education, and then [00:08:40] live a better life to what we’ve done. And it’s quite funny now, like when I, when [00:08:45] I go home and I spend time with my folks, and you almost feel like you’ve the [00:08:50] you’ve taken that baton to the next level, and then you want to say to your kids, you take it to the next level, [00:08:55] like whatever all of us have collectively endured, you [00:09:00] guys take it to the next level.

Prav Solanki: What is the next level?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. You know, I [00:09:05] guess maybe the next level is just [00:09:10] being better and like being good for [00:09:15] society, but also for your own family. Like we struggle to have time with our family. Even then, I’m [00:09:20] struggling. I try to keep the balance, but even then it’s like family time. You know, [00:09:25] maybe they have a bit more of a balance. Maybe there is no such thing as balance, I don’t know.

Prav Solanki: So I was [00:09:30] talking to Amit earlier, right. And we were talking about what is success, [00:09:35] the definition of it. Right. Um, and, you know, I mean, it was talking [00:09:40] about his future in the business and further growth, [00:09:45] further ambitions and what that could look like. Right. And [00:09:50] so you just mentioned take it to the next level. Maybe [00:09:55] our kids can take it to the next level. Yeah. What does that actually mean. Because sometimes I think about it I [00:10:00] look at my children. Right. I don’t want them to have my life. No, I don’t want [00:10:05] them to go through the the long hours, the pain, the. I don’t want them to [00:10:10] own a business. Yeah, maybe part of me does want them to be entrepreneurial. Do you know what I mean? But [00:10:15] I want them to have an easier journey than me, right? And so, I mean, [00:10:20] you say sort of like we’re going to do this and we’re going to do that, and so on and so forth. I’m just saying [00:10:25] we want our kids to take it to the next level. Is that like taking [00:10:30] Abbey House and doing ten x what Abbey House do? Is it a financial thing? [00:10:35] Is it actually giving them the ability to not [00:10:40] have to go through what you’ve done in terms of the the stresses [00:10:45] and strains of running a practice will probably go on to talk about 2024, [00:10:50] which was a terrible year for you guys, right? In terms of the amount of stress [00:10:55] you guys went through. And clearly you wouldn’t want your children to do that. I [00:11:00] think what is the next level?

Dr Mumta Jilka: See, I think tough times make [00:11:05] you.

Prav Solanki: The.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Do. Um, but I guess it’s really for them to [00:11:10] live the life they want. I think I think it’s not what I. [00:11:15] It’s almost more what they want to do, that they are living the life [00:11:20] of, of their dreams, that they are succeeding in whatever venture they kind of go for. [00:11:25] I mean.

Prav Solanki: But but then is it is it financial or non-financial? And [00:11:30] I’m it from your perspective, what does that look like?

Dr Amit Jilka: It’s not it’s non-financial. I [00:11:35] think you get to a point where you have what you want in life and you’ve achieved what you wanted from [00:11:40] a financial perspective, so that additional revenue or income is not going to change your lifestyle. [00:11:45] Um, for us, you know, I feel like we’ve got this opportunity that we’re [00:11:50] delivering good dental care, we’ve got a good team, and we’re good at what we do, that why not do more [00:11:55] of it? So, you know, for us, the next level for me is to, you know, we’ve got four practices [00:12:00] now. And I think we want to expand that into a few more.

Prav Solanki: Which is the next level for you. [00:12:05] But we’ll go back to my original question, which is your children. You talked about going back [00:12:10] home. Yeah. And you see where your parents came from? Yeah. And you [00:12:15] took it up a notch. Yeah. Right. You escaped?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yes.

Prav Solanki: From the shop [00:12:20] environment. Right. And what you’re saying is that maybe your children will take things [00:12:25] to the next level. Yeah. What does that actually mean?

Dr Mumta Jilka: So [00:12:30] I guess for me, what that would mean is that they [00:12:35] have developed a life that they are financially secure. [00:12:40] Um, they have developed a life where they have they can choose [00:12:45] how they want to spend their time. You know, I’m going to work X amount of hours. I’m going to spend this [00:12:50] much time with my kids, but just enjoy life. I think that, I mean, we all met [00:12:55] at some point material things like, you know, the finances and it’s really important. You can’t run [00:13:00] away from those things. I think you need this kind of stuff. Um, but I do want them to [00:13:05] be really happy and, like, you know, just for me, it’s family will always [00:13:10] be spending time with your family and, you know, stuff like that. But, yeah, it’s hard [00:13:15] to say, isn’t it? It’s really hard. It’s a really deep question, this one.

Prav Solanki: But I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you where I’m going [00:13:20] with it. Right. Is because you guys have done so well financially [00:13:25] and you’re still in your journey, [00:13:30] so to speak. So more is to come. Yeah, yeah, we all agree on that right? [00:13:35] So the harder you were, the more you do and the more you [00:13:40] generate in terms of your family wealth.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Okay. You’re setting [00:13:45] your children up to be able to choose, right? [00:13:50] Which is what our parents did.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Maybe they just pushed us into education. [00:13:55] Yeah. You know, paid for a few things at uni, whatever they could afford. Right. And you [00:14:00] guys are now taking that to the next level. Right. Um, [00:14:05] do you have any concerns or worries about that, or [00:14:10] do you ever talk about that at all?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, I think we’ve discussed it a few times, isn’t it, that [00:14:15] what our kind of origin story is made us into this place? Our own children [00:14:20] have already lived a very comfortable life. And so what is [00:14:25] going to be their drive and what’s going to push them to achieve? And and we all know working [00:14:30] is important. You know, we don’t want our kids not wanting to work. No. [00:14:35] You want them to be able to work and to be independent, but then ultimately, you don’t want them to go through [00:14:40] what we are. You know, where, you know, one year we’re doing really well, and then the next year you’re not doing [00:14:45] very well financially. And it’s an up and down game. You just want them to be stable so they don’t go through the stresses [00:14:50] that kind of our parents went through and what even we’ve been through. So, you know, it’s not [00:14:55] always a happy story is it? You know, I.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Think it’s I think it’s inevitable. I don’t [00:15:00] think anyone’s life is like a straight I think it is peaks and valleys, you know? And I [00:15:05] just want, you know, you want your kids to grow up, to be able to get through those peaks and valleys. [00:15:10] And maybe we underestimate them. Like, maybe they will be fine. You know.

Prav Solanki: You want them to be able to handle [00:15:15] the stresses, right? Because sometimes I think as a father, I mollycoddle my kids. Yeah. [00:15:20] And I sort of think about actually, you know, one day I won’t be here. Yeah. And I want them to [00:15:25] be able to do that by themselves. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So question for you. I’m it whilst [00:15:30] Monta was growing up in Leicester working in the corner shop. Go [00:15:35] into cash and carry telling people the car have cigarettes. What were you doing? [00:15:40]

Dr Amit Jilka: Sounds like a typical Indian story now because you two have already told my story. So. So [00:15:45] yeah. Surprise, surprise. I also grew up in a shop as well. Okay, a corner shop. And it was [00:15:50] actually a corner shop. Yeah. And we lived above that in a flat, and it was five [00:15:55] of us. Where was it? Two brothers in Bournville, Birmingham. Okay. Um, but it was [00:16:00] a flat, but it was a three roomed flat. So our lounge [00:16:05] was also our bedroom, which was also our dining room. So [00:16:10] it was a very close, close kind of, um, family upbringing. Um, [00:16:15] and I look back in those days and think that that’s why we as a family are so [00:16:20] close, because, you know, we did literally everything together. Um, at the same time, my dad [00:16:25] was an accountant, so he would go to work and my mum would be running the shop by herself. Pretty [00:16:30] much. We were too young to help run the shop, and it was my eldest [00:16:35] brother that kind of took the role of what mum was doing at her shop, um, and pretty [00:16:40] much ran the business with my with my mum while going to school. Um, so his upbringing was probably, [00:16:45] you know, more difficult than mine because, you know, I was very much brought up by my [00:16:50] two older brothers and my parents at the same time.

Prav Solanki: Um, what was the age difference between you and [00:16:55] your brothers?

Dr Amit Jilka: My eldest brother’s five years older than me. Okay. And then my middle brother is only a year older than me. [00:17:00] But I think they all saw me as, like, the baby of the family. So they kind of really, really looked after me. Um, [00:17:05] but we didn’t have a shop for, you know, we had a shop for about eight years. Um, but unfortunately, [00:17:10] my, my dad had a lot of medical problems, and so he was [00:17:15] diagnosed with cancer in his leg, um, in the kind of early 90s. So I [00:17:20] remember for a good, good year, we were just going back and forth as a six and seven year old to the hospital [00:17:25] to see him. Um, you know, he wasn’t given long to live at the time. [00:17:30] And, um, they did eventually save him and they replaced his, [00:17:35] uh, one of his bones, his right femur with a titanium bone. So he [00:17:40] was kind of okay then. But I think the pressures of the finances and everything meant that eventually, [00:17:45] you know, we made that decision to sell the shop. And then my dad got got another [00:17:50] job while my mom became a care home assistant.

Dr Amit Jilka: Um, at that point. And [00:17:55] so, yeah, my, my kind of life has kind of been brought up from the shop and then, uh, through, [00:18:00] um, some of my, my dad’s illnesses and, you know, unfortunately, that [00:18:05] leg then eventually became infected, um, probably [00:18:10] a month before my A-level exams. Um, and we were told [00:18:15] he’s got 24 hours to live. And the decision that we had to make as a family was, [00:18:20] you know, do you want him to live? Um, and we can try [00:18:25] and save the leg or we can cut the leg off, and, um, potentially [00:18:30] there’s a chance he might live. And so as a family, we’re just like, yeah, just cut the leg off, you know? [00:18:35] And thankfully, he survived. And, uh, and he came out of that, [00:18:40] um, with, you know, in a wheelchair after that. And, uh, I kind of went [00:18:45] into I remember my dad saying, you know, how’s the A-levels going? How’s the A-levels going? I was just like, this [00:18:50] is the last thing on my mind. Um, but I’ve always been that character that just works right at the end. [00:18:55] So, you know, I can.

Prav Solanki: Cram for exams.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. Like, you know, very much ADHD kind of characteristics [00:19:00] that I just cram everything at the end. Um, and so for me, the A-levels. Yeah, [00:19:05] it wasn’t even I wasn’t even stressed about that because I just knew I’d do okay with that. Um, [00:19:10] so yeah, I mean, so you kind of go through that and then, um, you [00:19:15] know, after that, my dad, dad didn’t work after that. And so as a family, we were financially, [00:19:20] you know, we were struggling. I’d say we were struggling. So, you know, we sold, um, [00:19:25] like I said, the shop was gone at the time and my brother at the time had [00:19:30] then gone to America. Um, and was was kind of helping with the finances. [00:19:35]

Prav Solanki: So what was he doing in America at the time?

Dr Amit Jilka: Um, he was um, he was [00:19:40] working for PwC. So he was he had a good job. Very, very good job. Yeah. [00:19:45] Um, and he kind of again supported me through university, um, financially as well. [00:19:50] And so, like I said, I’ve just been very well looked after. Um, yeah. [00:19:55] Yeah. I think that’s that’s it really. I mean, you know, I got to fifth year, if you remember, you [00:20:00] were there, you know, fifth year of dental school and again, um, six weeks before the final exams, [00:20:05] again, dad goes into hospital 24 hours to live, you know. Got [00:20:10] your final exams coming up. And again, you’re told this is the last time you’re going to see him. Go and say bye [00:20:15] to dad. Go down. You know, I think, you know, was my girlfriend [00:20:20] at the time. And she came down as well. And the friends came down and, you know, and again he survived. And [00:20:25] so, you know, each and every time, my dad’s kind of been at that point of, you know, going he’s [00:20:30] always survived. And so I look at my life and think, I always think we’re going to get through it. And [00:20:35] you can see how the practices are run. You can see how I run the family, how I speak [00:20:40] to people.

Dr Mumta Jilka: We live on the edge, keep.

Dr Amit Jilka: Falling off the edge.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Getting back on.

Dr Amit Jilka: And if I’m not on the edge, I’m not [00:20:45] comfortable. I have to be on the edge because I’m so used to being on the edge that everything’s going to be [00:20:50] okay. Yeah. You know, um, so that’s it. That’s that’s effectively, you know, we’re [00:20:55] all got here today. And what keeps me going is that, you know. Yeah, you could say that Abbey House Dental [00:21:00] has achieved a lot and this is it. And this is enough and it is enough. Of course it is. [00:21:05] But I’ve got to be on the edge. I’ve got to keep moving and I’ve got to keep growing. And I think it’s a personal [00:21:10] thing that I have to do this.

Prav Solanki: But it’s the way we’re all wired differently. This is what I say. We are all [00:21:15] wired differently. We’ve got so many neurones flying around our bodies and [00:21:20] every one of us are connected differently. Um, and, you [00:21:25] know, whatever it is, whatever drives you, whether it’s your, you know, your upbringing and [00:21:30] your and your dad’s sort of last chances or, you know, the shop for [00:21:35] yourself. Um, it’s what shapes us to what we are, right? [00:21:40] Um, so fast forward, actually, I’ve got one more question for you on it, which is [00:21:45] being the baby of the family. Being the youngest child.

Dr Amit Jilka: Um.

Prav Solanki: Were you mollycoddled. [00:21:50] Were you were you the favourite?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, yeah, I was, [00:21:55] you know, parent’s golden boy. Like I said, that my brothers helped raise me. My parents [00:22:00] helped. Everyone just looked after me. And mum was the eldest in the family. And so it’s a very interesting dynamic [00:22:05] when we’re in each other’s families because, you know, mom is like the leader in her family. And when I go to my house, [00:22:10] everyone’s looking after me and buying me stuff. And so, you know, I’ve I’ve had a very lucky life in that respect [00:22:15] that I’ve been just thrown so much love and very little responsibility.

Prav Solanki: So [00:22:20] what’s it like when you go to each other’s in-laws, shall we say? Is it a very different [00:22:25] experience to both of you in terms of.

Dr Amit Jilka: It’s a complete contrast, isn’t it? You know, very, very contrasting. [00:22:30] It’s very yeah, it’s a.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Lot more chilled out. So I’m [00:22:35] the baby now. So I take full, full privileges with all of that.

Dr Amit Jilka: So yeah, I think [00:22:40] because the family are a lot more intense because we’ve been through. Yeah. High pressure situations. So [00:22:45] you know, whereas families are a lot more chilled out. Isn’t it so. [00:22:50] Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So fast forward you both get through school. [00:22:55] You I’m assuming you both did really well in your exams. Were you? So you were a crammer [00:23:00] like me. Mhm. Um, so I would smash it right at the end and [00:23:05] do really well. Um. Kind of always knew I’d do that. I’m assuming. [00:23:10]

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. Yeah. Same. Same. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, a couple of weeks before the final exams, [00:23:15] um, I turned my days around, weirdly enough. So I would kind of sleep during the night. During [00:23:20] the day and start at like 10 p.m. and work through the morning. It’s just the way I thought was [00:23:25] the best and most efficient way of working with no distractions. And you know, so I would literally finish [00:23:30] studying and the exam would be at 9 a.m. and I’d been up that whole evening fresh in the mind and [00:23:35] just, you know, you figure out what works for you.

Prav Solanki: Don’t you? Right. Yeah. What about yourself? Were [00:23:40] you were you a crammer? No. Were you were studying all the time? Yes. Yeah. Because I [00:23:45] am a student.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Obviously. Naturally. I can’t, like, cram like this [00:23:50] man can. So I have to actually work consistently. Consistent. [00:23:55] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I my stress levels need to be like this for me to function. [00:24:00]

Prav Solanki: And were you a model student? Yeah, I think I was, I was hitting the marks, [00:24:05] the grades, teachers, pet teachers.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: All that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah. [00:24:10]

Dr Mumta Jilka: I’m so boring. This is just how I am. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So why dentistry for both of [00:24:15] you? What? What drove you both to have you. You must have discussed this, right?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. [00:24:20] So I think for me, it wasn’t I wasn’t one of those, like, young ones that had a long term [00:24:25] plan to be a dentist. Mhm. Um, mine kind of came through the frustrations. I was [00:24:30] feeling like my mom was having a lot of dental issues at the time. And I remember because when you were [00:24:35] in a shop, you just think, well, why can’t someone just be open? Like why can’t someone just help? How can it be so complicated? [00:24:40] And I saw my mom just kind of go down, down, down in her confidence. And, [00:24:45] um, at the time, I was like, you know what? I’m just gonna do it. And at first, [00:24:50] my grades were not great. But then when I when I focussed on it, when I knew that [00:24:55] this I’ve got to get into dental school, I was like, okay, let’s just start pacing my work, getting into [00:25:00] it. And I’d probably say that was kind of my drive at the time. But [00:25:05] for you, I think you just knew it from the minute you came out, didn’t you?

Dr Amit Jilka: I [00:25:10] think you forget the story that you used to study for her GCSEs while [00:25:15] serving customers, and she’d fall asleep reading a book on the counter. That’s [00:25:20] what your mom said, isn’t it? So, you know, we’re very different to. We where like, everything was done for me so I could study. [00:25:25] And, you know.

Dr Mumta Jilka: I never had that right. I had literally, like you were saying it would be between [00:25:30] customers. Like I’d be serving and reading, you know, Krebs cycle in biology or something, like [00:25:35] I’d just.

Prav Solanki: Be them weighing out bonbons and.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Prav Solanki: That’s right.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. [00:25:40] Oh my.

Prav Solanki: Gosh.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah yeah. No. For me it was my mom. My mom was the biggest influence in [00:25:45] doing dentistry. She’d known a few people that had made a success in dentistry. And, um, [00:25:50] so from a very early age, she wanted one of the kids to be a dentist. And so [00:25:55] I didn’t really know anything about dentistry, if I’m being honest. But my mom said, you need to do dentistry. And so [00:26:00] I think I was the only one at the. And my two brothers are very clever as well, but I was the only one that [00:26:05] got the grades that would enable you to get into dental school. So that was it. I was just on that [00:26:10] path for whatever mom said. I did so.

Prav Solanki: So so it was never Medicine or anything like that?

Dr Amit Jilka: No, [00:26:15] never. I mean medicine. Um. My best friend and me were kind of studying together, [00:26:20] and he wanted medicine, and I always was dentistry. And I did have thoughts about joining [00:26:25] him as well. And, you know, we both went off to university together, and it was always dentistry because I had this [00:26:30] kind of business mind as well. And I felt that dentistry, as I researched it more, fitted my [00:26:35] personality better.

Prav Solanki: How did you both end up at Sheffield? Because at some point [00:26:40] you applied for was it five options? Yeah, [00:26:45] it was it.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: That’s it. Yeah, I can’t remember. I think it was about, I think it was five in [00:26:50] my day. Maybe it might have been four or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Um, and for [00:26:55] some reason you both picked Sheffield, [00:27:00] right? And neither of you knew at the time that it would completely pave your future. [00:27:05] In fact, had you not both picked Sheffield Abbey house wouldn’t be here, right? [00:27:10] Yeah. So how did that happen?

Dr Mumta Jilka: For me, [00:27:15] it was the furthest place from the shop. That [00:27:20] was. That was the logic behind it.

Prav Solanki: Right.

Dr Mumta Jilka: So I remember my dad was like, just stick [00:27:25] to Birmingham, go to Birmingham. And I was like, I could go to Birmingham. But that’s still too close to Leicester. [00:27:30]

Prav Solanki: Did you apply to Birmingham?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yes.

Prav Solanki: You got it.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Got it, got it, got it. So it was between Sheffield [00:27:35] and Birmingham right. I got Liverpool as well and it was like between them. But Liverpool was a bit too far right. [00:27:40] But Sheffield I was like no one knows. There are no you know, [00:27:45] none of my lot there. I’m going.

Prav Solanki: So there’s nothing to do with the course being better or [00:27:50] anything like that. It was just like, I want to get as far away. None of my lot there. I’m going there.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, [00:27:55] yeah yeah, yeah. So that no one can ring me and be like, can you just go on the tills?

Prav Solanki: You [00:28:00] couldn’t come back to do a weekend.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Couldn’t come back to.

Prav Solanki: Do a weekend. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dr Amit Jilka: Mine [00:28:05] was that I applied to all four um Cardiff, Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham. [00:28:10] And I’ve got places in all of them. But it was my mum again. She was just like, we need [00:28:15] you to become more independent. And because I was that kid that was very well looked [00:28:20] after. Um, we went to see all the universities and I wanted to stay in Birmingham [00:28:25] personally. I wanted to stay in Birmingham. I wanted to stay in Birmingham. Yeah. And it was, it was my mum and [00:28:30] my brother that said, no, you need to go away from home. These five years will do you good and.

Prav Solanki: Push the baby.

Dr Amit Jilka: Away from you. [00:28:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which led me to mum. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So how did you meet?

Dr Amit Jilka: First [00:28:40] day of dental school, wasn’t it? First day at dental school was like a [00:28:45] gangster girl from Leicester.

Prav Solanki: Is that right?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. I was probably a bit more posher, [00:28:50] wasn’t I? Yeah, with his backpack. Yeah. I [00:28:55] wouldn’t say I was shy, but I was a bit shyer than.

Prav Solanki: You were on the first day.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Um, what [00:29:00] was it, an event? Was it a party? Was it a freshers week thing?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, it was like [00:29:05] a freshers week thing. When they introduce you to all the other students in the year. Yeah. So we were [00:29:10] just all pulled into one room and you just had to introduce yourself to everyone.

Prav Solanki: All the Dental students in one room? Yeah. [00:29:15] You can’t have all said hello to everyone. Or did you?

Dr Mumta Jilka: No we did. It was. We [00:29:20] did. We went kind of around it.

Dr Amit Jilka: It was like we kind of did, I think. I think a few people you just connected with more. Isn’t [00:29:25] it so you know.

Prav Solanki: So you at some point said hello to one another. [00:29:30] Yeah.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. And I think instantly we were friends, very close friends for straight away within a week [00:29:35] weren’t we? Very very good friends.

Prav Solanki: Did you live near each other?

Dr Mumta Jilka: No.

Dr Amit Jilka: No.

Prav Solanki: So you weren’t [00:29:40] in the same halls?

Dr Mumta Jilka: No. So he was in halls? I was in self-catered.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Uh, apartments. [00:29:45] So, uh. But no, we just became really good friends, isn’t it?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. [00:29:50] Yeah. And then. Then. Yeah. I asked her out in second year university. Wasn’t it?

Prav Solanki: Took you [00:29:55] a year?

Dr Amit Jilka: Took me a year. Yeah. She rejected me. And then I asked her out again. Rejected me. And [00:30:00] then we were together secretly for a bit, weren’t we? Uh. And then you dumped me again.

Prav Solanki: What do you mean? What do you mean, [00:30:05] secretly?

Dr Amit Jilka: You know those that Asian thing where, you know, you don’t tell anyone, but everybody knows. So [00:30:10] all our friends knew that we were going out, but we weren’t officially a couple.

Dr Mumta Jilka: All [00:30:15] I was saying was, I just need to get to know you, like, you know, a little bit more.

Prav Solanki: So [00:30:20] that first day, just just do that again. How did he say hello to you? That’s [00:30:25] terrible. And [00:30:30] so what did you think on that first day? Can you remember. Can you [00:30:35] take yourself back to there? Like, did you like.

Dr Mumta Jilka: I just thought this guy was really shy. [00:30:40]

Prav Solanki: Simple as that.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Simple.

Prav Solanki: Simple as that. And what did you think?

Dr Amit Jilka: This [00:30:45] girl’s really confident. She’s very much in your face, [00:30:50] so. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: So was it. Was it a love at first sight thing, or was it. Actually, [00:30:55] we’re just.

Dr Amit Jilka: Definitely attraction at first sight, wasn’t it? Yeah, yeah, for.

Prav Solanki: Both.

Dr Amit Jilka: Of you.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr Amit Jilka: I’m glad [00:31:00] you both. You know, I had to really convince mom to, like, really, really hard to even [00:31:05] consider me as a partner. Yeah. So, you know.

Dr Mumta Jilka: We were really [00:31:10] good friends. Like really good friends.

Prav Solanki: Was it love at first sight?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Dr Amit Jilka: No it wasn’t. [00:31:15] Come on. No. It wasn’t.

Dr Mumta Jilka: It was a bit later. Yeah. [00:31:20] I think when I got to uni, I literally was so focussed on freedom and just [00:31:25] enjoying, like the course, the uni friends, the life that [00:31:30] it wasn’t really on my radar.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, I get that, I get that. But you met each other, you hit [00:31:35] it off, you became mates.

Dr Mumta Jilka: 100% trusted him. Like, I was like, if I go out, whatever. [00:31:40] If he’s there, I know I’m gonna be okay. Like, he was, he was. He was my go to guy for sure. For [00:31:45] everything.

Prav Solanki: And so what was that first year like? Were you both out partying [00:31:50] hard? Were you working hard? Were you doing a bit of both? Were you supporting each other in the.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. [00:31:55] Monster again was very studious, worked really hard, and I’d been so used to cramming and doing [00:32:00] things last minute. Um, but that doesn’t really work in dental school because there’s so much [00:32:05] knowledge that you have to accumulate. So I didn’t appreciate how much work was involved. So I did fail, [00:32:10] um, half the modules in that first year. I had to retake, um, and [00:32:15] retake them in the summer, and luckily I passed and got through into the second year, and so I [00:32:20] could continue seeing all the new friends that I’d made. Um, and then second year on, [00:32:25] I took it very seriously. And then I made sure I was, you know, in the top five in the class. But [00:32:30] yeah, it took me, it took me. I always say that year was very, very good for me, that I failed [00:32:35] because it really it was very important. Even my mom says it, that, you know, the fact that you failed in that year [00:32:40] led you to work harder in those later years. So it was a wake up call for me.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Talent [00:32:45] only gets you so far, right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Discipline.

Prav Solanki: What were you doing? Spending your time? Just [00:32:50] enjoying yourself.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, just. Yeah. Just what a typical first year does, you know, going [00:32:55] out regularly, drinking, you know, heavily. The usual. Really. It was [00:33:00] just a bit too much, you know.

Prav Solanki: So then obviously you asked.

Dr Amit Jilka: And that [00:33:05] may be a reason why I didn’t, you know, you didn’t want me in the first year.

Prav Solanki: So [00:33:10] so he asked you out in the second year, was it or was it before that [00:33:15] he asked you out and you said no. Second year and you said yes or no?

Dr Mumta Jilka: I said no.

Prav Solanki: Why? [00:33:20]

Dr Mumta Jilka: Because at the time, again, I was thinking [00:33:25] that he’s just.

Prav Solanki: A friend.

Dr Mumta Jilka: A friend, and he [00:33:30] has this, you know, fun lifestyle. And I’m more of a, you know, studious, [00:33:35] working hard. And then the other thing was, I didn’t want my dad to think, you know, she’s gone [00:33:40] this far, and she’s. And I didn’t want it to interfere with my education. I was just, like, so focussed that I wanted to do [00:33:45] well and I wanted to work hard.

Prav Solanki: Was your decision focussed around what might my dad think?

Dr Mumta Jilka: No. [00:33:50] Well, maybe a bit, but like. Yeah, because you do, right? Like, [00:33:55] of course you do. My dad is like my world.

Prav Solanki: Of course you do.

Dr Mumta Jilka: He’s my everything. And then, like, [00:34:00] you know, enters a new man. But I [00:34:05] guess for me, really, I think I wasn’t in the right headspace. I was just wanting [00:34:10] to be a bit independent and live my life. But then also, he was my friend and I didn’t want that to [00:34:15] change, like we were such good friends. Um, but [00:34:20] then. Yeah, slowly, you know?

Prav Solanki: So what happened? He asked you again?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, he did the conversion, [00:34:25] I guess.

Prav Solanki: Did he party for three months, send you an SMS or something? Three months [00:34:30] later. Are you still interested in.

Dr Mumta Jilka: No. He did. He. You know, he was really Dental [00:34:35] conversion. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: He did.

Dr Mumta Jilka: He was like day [00:34:40] one, send sms, day two. Send Anita. No.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, actually [00:34:45] it was it was one of my close friends that convinced her to go out with me again. So, um, [00:34:50] and once you.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Were all at it.

Dr Amit Jilka: Then once she was convinced, then you.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Need to get with this guy.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [00:34:55]

Dr Mumta Jilka: So then that’s what.

Prav Solanki: So what? So what was the secretive part? [00:35:00] Is this a parent thing? The secretive part?

Dr Amit Jilka: No, no. I mean, yeah, for her side, it was because, you [00:35:05] know, her parents are the.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Eldest, the first daughter in the family. The eldest. My [00:35:10] dad’s really strict. Yeah. But then also, you know, I needed to [00:35:15] make sure I got an education.

Dr Amit Jilka: My side was very, very open and close family. So, you [00:35:20] know, I’d be saying I’ve asked mum and she said no, you know, I’d be telling my mum and dad this. So [00:35:25] it was a complete contrasting families like we said. So yeah. You know, my parents [00:35:30] only found out.

Dr Mumta Jilka: When you approach them.

Dr Amit Jilka: After graduation. Oh, [00:35:35] really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they didn’t know we were a couple until graduation, [00:35:40] wasn’t it? So.

Prav Solanki: So come graduation time, what did [00:35:45] you.

Dr Amit Jilka: On graduation day? I went to my dad and I said, uh, you know, [00:35:50] let’s celebrate. Let’s go for a meal as two families.

Prav Solanki: How did you know Mum or Dad to approach [00:35:55] him?

Dr Amit Jilka: You see the pictures, don’t you?

Dr Mumta Jilka: No no, no. So one day, what happened was my [00:36:00] parents came to my flat. Yeah. I can’t believe this is all being exposed on this podcast. [00:36:05] And, um, my mum had brought food and stuff, and then Ammit and then one [00:36:10] of my other good friends. They were both. Both the boys were there. And, um, so I introduced I said, oh, this is [00:36:15] this is me. This is, you know, so and so. My parents are KKK. And then nothing else came [00:36:20] of that. Graduation day came, and then Ammit just casually walks up to my dad, and my [00:36:25] dad is like, you know, if you watched EastEnders, he’s like, Grant Mitchell. Like, he’s a, you know, he [00:36:30] walks up to my dad and he’s like, uncle, why don’t we go for a meal to celebrate? And my dad just looked at him like, [00:36:35] who is this? Like, how is he just approached me. And then I remember in the car journey home, my dad goes, [00:36:40] is there something you want to tell me? And I was like, ah.

Prav Solanki: Maybe wicked.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. [00:36:45] That’s how.

Prav Solanki: It happened. That’s how it happened.

Dr Mumta Jilka: That’s how it happened.

Prav Solanki: Amazing. Amazing. [00:36:50] And then. So where did you both go in your journeys after that first jobs. [00:36:55]

Dr Mumta Jilka: So yeah, I went to work in Wolverhampton. So, [00:37:00] um, that was uh, I did my bit in Wolverhampton. [00:37:05] Then I found another job in Wolverhampton. So that was there for about four years. And then [00:37:10] you did a solo training and stuff, didn’t you?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yes I did. In Birmingham and just lived [00:37:15] back at home. And then I did, uh, Max sax then for a year in Birmingham. And so I just yeah, [00:37:20] stayed at home at that point. And mum was living in Birmingham in a flat. So, you know, we saw each other quite often [00:37:25] then, didn’t we. And we got married two years after graduation.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. [00:37:30] After I convinced her dad to accept me. Which, again, that took a long time to get [00:37:35] his approval.

Prav Solanki: Did you did. So the reason I’m asking this is that my [00:37:40] me asking Bobby’s dad for. The [00:37:45] permission was probably one of the most nerve [00:37:50] wracking experiences of my life. Because he is a proper gangster. [00:37:55] Proper gangster? Right. Um. And [00:38:00] he knows some really dodgy people as well. Right. So. And I’d heard all the stories, so [00:38:05] I was bricking myself. Yeah. Did you. Did you actually go [00:38:10] and ask him?

Dr Amit Jilka: I did, yeah, yeah. I went round to the house and sat with [00:38:15] his mum and dad in a very formal meeting, and we went through that process and, um, [00:38:20] yeah, it was, it was, it was scary.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Me and my sister were hiding, like, in the kitchen with our ears by [00:38:25] the door, and my sister’s like, he’s just like that. He just said that. I was like, shh, get this over and [00:38:30] done with.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, it was a full interview. I was questioned about loads of different things about kids and, you know, [00:38:35] this and that and religion and everything and. Yeah. Um, and then I didn’t [00:38:40] hear from them for six months. And [00:38:45] then. Yeah, his dad was at your flat, wasn’t it? And then and [00:38:50] then said, yeah, we we are happy with you now.

Prav Solanki: So six months later.

Dr Amit Jilka: It was about six [00:38:55] months, wasn’t it? Yeah. Kept me on my toes. So.

Prav Solanki: Wow. [00:39:00] Wow. My, my my father in law [00:39:05] just said. Yeah. Nice one. Crack on. But it was nerve wracking. [00:39:10] You had to wait for six months.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, it’s a long time. It was a it’s a long delay.

Prav Solanki: Wow. Yeah. [00:39:15] Well, it must have been very strict there.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Very strict.

Prav Solanki: Um, so you both [00:39:20] did your thing. Got married within a couple of years. And then when [00:39:25] did the idea of Abbey House happen? And whose idea [00:39:30] was it?

Dr Mumta Jilka: So it was his idea. And it was just [00:39:35] a. Let’s just trial this out. Let’s just have a go. Let’s just go [00:39:40] and see some practice and see what it’s all about. So I was like, okay, then we’ll just go and have a look. [00:39:45] And then this was the first second practice.

Dr Amit Jilka: Second practice.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Isn’t it. Second practice that we [00:39:50] saw and I remember we walked in and the owners, they just kind of [00:39:55] it’s like they resonate towards you, weren’t they? It was just.

Dr Amit Jilka: Like, yeah, yeah they [00:40:00] did.

Prav Solanki: So what were you doing going through? You guys thought.

Prav Solanki: Let’s own our own practice, right? [00:40:05]

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And it was an idea.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: You went along with it?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And [00:40:10] you went to view a practice. So you decided, right. We’re going to start viewing practices now.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: What was [00:40:15] your drive? Your your fear. Did you always know that I’m going to run and own my [00:40:20] own?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, 100%. It was. Yeah, from day one, you know. You know, I had a choice after Max [00:40:25] facts. I had a choice to do medicine. And it was a fast track degree. That and [00:40:30] it was. I really wanted to do max facts. And the decision at the time [00:40:35] was because we hardly had any money and we were getting married and everything. We thought, this isn’t a financially [00:40:40] viable option for me to do max facts and do that thing. And so I thought, if I’m not going to do max [00:40:45] facts, then there’s only one plan. It’s by practice. And so [00:40:50] after Max, I didn’t even get a proper associate job. I just did loads of locums with [00:40:55] the idea that I wanted to see how practices are run. So I did locums for about a year and a half in [00:41:00] all over the country. I was working just for the knowledge base and then yeah, we bought the practice [00:41:05] and the practice took about a year to go through CQC and everything. And um, and [00:41:10] the owners that sold it to us are Doctor Lehane and Doctor Bates, who both passed away. Now they [00:41:15] resonated with me because they got multiple offers, and I think they got offers that were higher than [00:41:20] what I had offered. And I’ve met people who actually approached our practice, and I think there was a connection [00:41:25] that made us sell to us.

Prav Solanki: This was Abbey House Stone, right?

Dr Amit Jilka: Abbey House Stone.

Prav Solanki: Was a practice called then [00:41:30] same or.

Dr Amit Jilka: It was called, um.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Doctor Lehane.

Dr Amit Jilka: Doctor Lehane dental surgery, Doctor [00:41:35] Lane dental surgery. And it was a I’d say it was a one surgery practice with a hygienist [00:41:40] room as well. So one and a half surgeries ran, probably one surgery was run five days [00:41:45] a week. The other one was run two three days a week. So it’s a tiny little practice that me and mom could go in and just [00:41:50] run it and, you know.

Prav Solanki: Test things out.

Dr Amit Jilka: Test things out. Yeah. There’s no ever plan [00:41:55] to grow big though in our heads it was like, let’s try and get it to four surgeries [00:42:00] and then we’re happy. Yeah. Um, and we did that. We did that very quickly. After a couple of years, we went to four surgeries, [00:42:05] and then the demand for private work in the area just kept growing and growing. [00:42:10] And we we got better and better at it. So it just went from strength to strength, [00:42:15] didn’t it?

Prav Solanki: Did. Going from the initial practice set up to four surgeries just happened by osmosis. [00:42:20] There was no like master plan or anything like that. It’s just demand grew. [00:42:25] Open another one, open another one. And did you know, sometimes when you grow in a business you [00:42:30] do this and you get so far, but it just happens [00:42:35] because it happens. Yeah, right. There’s not a strategy. There’s not a plan or anything. You [00:42:40] just grow in the first part of your growth. It just just happens. Right. And it just takes off because [00:42:45] of who you are, what you do. And then and then it becomes a point where it just [00:42:50] stops, right? And you’ve got to do something different. Did that like 1 to 4 or whatever [00:42:55] it was?

Dr Amit Jilka: I would say 1 to 3 buildings. You know, we got to the third practice in [00:43:00] stone and it just happened. It was just that we needed more private surgeries. We had [00:43:05] a bigger team. We were not growing, you know, and we will say this, that there was no plans to grow. [00:43:10]

Prav Solanki: What do you mean? 1 to 3 buildings. You were not growing.

Dr Amit Jilka: It just happened like the demand was there.

Dr Mumta Jilka: More [00:43:15] patients.

Dr Amit Jilka: Wanted it, more patients wanted Invisalign. And so the growth just happened. This practice, [00:43:20] the newer one that we built was strategic. It was chosen, um, you know, for [00:43:25] a reason. The location, the way we built it, it was part of that growth plan. So this [00:43:30] was different. But the first three, you know, just happened just without us really doing anything in [00:43:35] my head, I just naturally happened.

Dr Mumta Jilka: I think I think what happens is, you know, when you develop [00:43:40] a good supporting team, Mhm. Like you need that behind you because once [00:43:45] you’ve got that circle of people it just moves you fast forward. Like you [00:43:50] can start doing stuff that in a much more rapid way than if it’s just you [00:43:55] alone doing it. I think that’s what happened with us. Like we managed to somehow people [00:44:00] decided that they were gonna come work with us, and it’s almost like they were [00:44:05] kind of cheering you on to do it. They’re like, let’s just do it. Go and do it. Go and do it. Okay, we’ll do it.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. Because [00:44:10] you’ve met them both. I had two exceptional managers, Stacey and Kelly. They they’ve been part of [00:44:15] this journey from the start of the growth and.

Prav Solanki: Day.

Dr Amit Jilka: One, you know, I’d say, uh, building [00:44:20] two. Yeah. Building two. Building. When we were transitioning from the first building to the second building. So [00:44:25] that growth was was they were there. So when you have two people like that that see the business as [00:44:30] their own and work like it’s us, you just naturally all going in one direction. So, [00:44:35] you know, but.

Prav Solanki: That team didn’t just magically theirself there did it? Like you guys [00:44:40] recruited those people. You found those people. And yeah, you [00:44:45] know, some people might say, maybe you got lucky with those two people, right? And [00:44:50] maybe there is a part of it. That’s serendipity, right? That, you know, Stacy or Kelly [00:44:55] was looking for a job at that time and the stars aligned [00:45:00] and you connected, but and you treated them well. And that’s why they stayed and whatnot, right? And [00:45:05] but because of that, you grew by osmosis to the first [00:45:10] three buildings. Some people would argue that, like growing beyond like getting [00:45:15] to one practice from 1 to 2 is a massive jump. It’s not, you know, some people say, [00:45:20] oh, if I get my second location, that means I’ll do double, double what I’m doing in one. [00:45:25] Absolutely not. Yeah. You’ll triple your stress. Yeah. And all [00:45:30] the things.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Economies of scale.

Prav Solanki: And when you’re in that building, when you [00:45:35] are the boss and you’re in that building. Shit happens. Yeah. And it gets done. The [00:45:40] moment you leave there, you’re dropping the ball and you’re letting all the little leaks and all the little mistakes [00:45:45] and everything that could possibly go wrong. Go wrong. Right? Yeah. Um, but you got from [00:45:50] 1 to 3. And what space of time was that?

Dr Amit Jilka: So 2019 [00:45:55] was the second building. Yeah, 2021. Two years later was the third [00:46:00] building. And then this one was 2023. So pretty much every two years we’ve [00:46:05] effectively had a new building haven’t we.

Prav Solanki: And during that [00:46:10] journey so.

Dr Amit Jilka: Would you one now aren’t we technically.

Prav Solanki: But [00:46:20] but but during this during this journey of of, you know, one practice [00:46:25] to two practices to three practices, you also had some real babies [00:46:30] as well, right? Along the way. Yeah. At what point did the children come [00:46:35] along and what impact did that have overall in the [00:46:40] journey, and how did you both handle that?

Dr Amit Jilka: So the first two boys, they were born before [00:46:45] we even got to four surgeries, we were just a two surgery practice. So they they were born [00:46:50] before that. And then Amy was born in 2019 when we the year [00:46:55] we opened the second building. So very early on effectively. [00:47:00] So we weren’t as busy, you know. Um, and yeah, I think, [00:47:05] you know, we’ve always we’ve always managed to kind of balance the children by reducing our clinical work over time. [00:47:10]

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yes. So I think for me it was um, so when my eldest was [00:47:15] born, um, I was only working two days, I think, or three days [00:47:20] max. Mhm. Um, I felt it then because all of a sudden you’re going from [00:47:25] being on this high speed career journey to, to having little ones. And, [00:47:30] um, I definitely reduce my days down quite drastically because quite rightly, to look [00:47:35] after the kids. Um, and then whilst he was just getting more and more practices and buying and all [00:47:40] the rest of it, um, but it kind of worked out okay, I think, because we’re both I [00:47:45] know that he’s quite a good situation to be in, that we’re both dentists. Yeah. So you both understand [00:47:50] each other’s stress and you still work together as a team. So there’ll be days when [00:47:55] if he’s feeling it, I’d get it. I’d make sure that the house stuff is okay, that he doesn’t have [00:48:00] to transfer that home. Or we could work off each other. Um, and then. Yeah, after [00:48:05] the after, you know, the third one was, you know, after she was [00:48:10] born, um, I think I just started to feel like I needed to get [00:48:15] back into it for myself. And so you start doing courses, you start building [00:48:20] up a strategy. Like you said, it stopped being going on a whim to strategic. [00:48:25] Strategic. Okay. So how are we going to go from this to this, to this? How are we going to generate [00:48:30] income from this to this? How are we going to increase the service? How are we going to differentiate? How are we going to do all this stuff. [00:48:35] So it’s like that’s when the mapping really started to take shape I’d say. And then Covid happened and [00:48:40] that was just like the best kind of obviously it was a bad time, but it was like [00:48:45] a vacuum moment where you could really look back and think, okay, where [00:48:50] is this going? What are we doing? How are we doing it? And that’s kind of I’d probably say.

Prav Solanki: I’d [00:48:55] say the best thing that happened to my business was Covid. Yeah, we lost it all.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Because [00:49:00] you guys didn’t need people like us.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: When your practices were shut. So we lost everything. [00:49:05] But I didn’t furlough any of my team. And we sat there and [00:49:10] we put strategy together and said, when this thing turns around, this is who we are, this [00:49:15] is who we represent, and this is definitely who we don’t want to work with.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And this is definitely who we do want. So [00:49:20] so we we spent a lot of time, you know, when you’re running a business.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: It’s [00:49:25] really hard to work on the business when the wheels are moving.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yes. [00:49:30]

Prav Solanki: Um, and what was so good about Covid is the wheels stopped moving. We [00:49:35] all paused. And if you wanted to, you had the opportunity to re-evaluate [00:49:40] who you are, what you do. So did you take some of that time to do that at that time?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, definitely. [00:49:45] Definitely. Especially with things like. So for me with the focus was on [00:49:50] Invisalign to grow the Invisalign part of it all. Um.

Dr Amit Jilka: I think for me, my [00:49:55] head was in a different space at that time, so I wasn’t really focussed on the practice because I’d recently lost [00:50:00] my father, um, prior to Covid. Not during Covid, but like 5 or 6 months. [00:50:05] Okay. So for me, that period of Covid was really recovery time for me to to kind of mourn [00:50:10] and, and get back to kind of normality. Um, so Covid for me was was really [00:50:15] good. I think it just helped me free my mind.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And [00:50:20] then so what happened with the practices post Covid then? [00:50:25]

Dr Mumta Jilka: It was just a growing game. Then it was literally right. How are we gonna. [00:50:30]

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, I think one of the open day record, we still haven’t beaten every since. There was like, 35 cases [00:50:35] in one day that went ahead. Yeah, I think, and that one open day with one clinician, you know, obviously [00:50:40] we’ve done more now with more clinicians. But that still a record isn’t it. You know an implant numbers flu. [00:50:45]

Dr Mumta Jilka: I think.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Generally even across the whole economy people are just willing to spend on themselves. So you [00:50:50] could see this rise. But it was almost like a fake rise because after [00:50:55] that you just saw it, you know, sliding down. And then it was like the real work has to kick [00:51:00] in to bring it back up.

Prav Solanki: And it was that, you know, that post-Covid boom was like, [00:51:05] I can’t believe this. And we were all sat there thinking, well, everyone saved the money up. Yeah, everyone’s [00:51:10] got this furlough money.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And everyone who wants to invest in their teeth [00:51:15] can do it now. And it went like gangbusters for everyone, [00:51:20] right? The Dental economy was just huge. But like you say, it was a it was [00:51:25] a artificial. Yeah, manufactured situation that we ended up in. [00:51:30] And if you made hay while the sun was shining, then great.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: And if you didn’t? Well, [00:51:35] it’s what it is, right? Yeah. Um, but then just [00:51:40] in that whole growth phase, right, that you had that post Covid boom. And then after [00:51:45] that, did you have any like dark moments, any times during [00:51:50] the journey where it was really shit?

Dr Amit Jilka: Well, actually, um, we had opened the second practice [00:51:55] in 2019. Um, so that was just opened and then Covid hit. [00:52:00] So we were really in a bad financial situation at that point. Um, and then [00:52:05] surprisingly, you know, everyone thinks we’re doing so well, but in 2024, [00:52:10] we had financially the worst year, you know, we’d hit rock bottom.

Prav Solanki: Um, [00:52:15] what does rock bottom mean financially?

Dr Amit Jilka: Hit rock bottom. You know, we made negative profit, you know, [00:52:20] um, which is surprising. We lost money. Yeah. And for a practice of our size [00:52:25] and the numbers that we do, I think a lot of people couldn’t understand it. And and it came [00:52:30] down to just going back to the basics of, you know, I remember the phone call from the accountant. He’s [00:52:35] got the account. He rang me and he said, um, what the hell’s happened to the business? You need to stop what you’re [00:52:40] doing. Come to the come to the office. Right now. We need to discuss what’s happened. [00:52:45] Because you’ve just gone from super growth and profitability to to nothing. [00:52:50] And we’d invested so much into the practices. And to get it high end and, you know, the oteros, [00:52:55] the CT scan, all of these things and and fundamentally me and had [00:53:00] been doing less and less clinical, which kind of meant that if we were generating most of the income, [00:53:05] we probably generating the profits. So then as it became more kind of associate led, [00:53:10] there’s the the numbers don’t stack up, unfortunately. And we realised very quickly that [00:53:15] we had to change the model. And we did change the model. And you know, Touchwood, we’ve been in a [00:53:20] much better, safer position.

Prav Solanki: Um, so 2024 you [00:53:25] lost money. Prior to that, you were making money. Um, and it took [00:53:30] a phone call from your accountant to tell you you were losing money. Is that right?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, yeah. [00:53:35]

Prav Solanki: And is that because at that stage when you were running your business, you [00:53:40] were probably not crunching the numbers as thoroughly [00:53:45] and as analytical as you may [00:53:50] do today, for example. And so you’re flying along going, why [00:53:55] are we doing this turnover. Everything’s great. We’ve just done 50 Invisalign cases. I’ve placed 100 [00:54:00] implants. Bang bang bang. How could we possibly be? Losing money like that is not a possibility. [00:54:05]

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, and it was that attitude that the turnover was so good that you don’t even look at the [00:54:10] other things. And we’d always been in profit for all of this time that you just never [00:54:15] thought this could happen. So you just would spend money, you’d be open to spending money and buying stuff [00:54:20] and you never really looked at it. We got PNL accounts on a monthly basis for years, [00:54:25] and the PNL accounts was telling us a story, but we just weren’t listening to that story.

Dr Mumta Jilka: I think that’s [00:54:30] one of the.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Things, you know, as dentists, you’re good at doing the service. But actually to [00:54:35] understand what these numbers are actually telling you, it’s like learning to read an x ray. You can [00:54:40] so many people can show you x rays, but if you don’t know what you’re looking at, you don’t know what you’re looking at. If you can’t diagnose caries, [00:54:45] you can’t diagnose that you know what you’re losing. And I think that was probably [00:54:50] the biggest lesson mean you had that day, wasn’t it? When our accountant sat us down [00:54:55] and I remember just sitting there thinking, how have we got [00:55:00] here? Obviously now I know how we got there, but how are we going to get back? And I think [00:55:05] that was when it was like make or break. So it’s almost like fight and flight mode. [00:55:10] Like we were put in that situation. It was like, and you feel it because you’ve got all these staff members to take care [00:55:15] of, all these building costs, all these entities, and you’ve got a reputation and it’s the reputation amongst like, [00:55:20] you know, running the show and stuff. So it’s an immense amount of pressure and [00:55:25] you’re thinking, I need to turn this around.

Dr Amit Jilka: The difficult decision was, I mean, the accountants, you [00:55:30] know, our accountant said, the only way this is going to work is if you and mom to go back in, do all the implant [00:55:35] cases, do all the Invisalign cases, you’d have to get rid of half the associates and you will [00:55:40] be back making high end profit. And I’d built up such a good team of associates, and I had so much respect [00:55:45] for them that we just couldn’t do that. We couldn’t just do that, and we tried [00:55:50] to do everything in our power to make the model work so that everyone could stay. Now, thankfully, [00:55:55] everybody has stayed with us and is supporting us. And, you know, we didn’t [00:56:00] lose anybody in that process of, you know, making cuts.

Prav Solanki: So I want to understand, first of all, [00:56:05] what went wrong in 2024, why you were losing money, and [00:56:10] then what did you actually do? Because you said you kept all your associates and everything. So if [00:56:15] we just analysed 2024, and I think this is a really important conversation because we [00:56:20] can sometimes be, um, overly confident. Our [00:56:25] ego gets the better of us and said, look, the business is flying. It’s happy days, right? But you were losing [00:56:30] money. Was it that you were overpaying your [00:56:35] associates? Was it that you’d overinvested in [00:56:40] the business, in the scanners, the environment, this, that, and the other asset purchases? [00:56:45] That meant that you were losing money. Or was [00:56:50] it that and how much did you step back clinically in 2012? What happened like 2023. [00:56:55] Compare your clinical input to 2020.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. So if we were to compare me and mom to [00:57:00] used to generate about the year before, probably about 55% of the [00:57:05] whole of Abby Houston massive.

Prav Solanki: Between.

Dr Amit Jilka: You between us that dropped in 2024 down [00:57:10] to about 5%. So it’s a massive, massive drop with the associates flying [00:57:15] and doing so much more work. And they were, you know, because we’ve mentored all of them to do all of the stuff that [00:57:20] I can do. So they were generating big income and doing really, really well. And that’s when [00:57:25] we realised that the model has never worked. And actually we took looked back at the accounts from the previous [00:57:30] years and took me and monster out of it. And each and every time the practice had either [00:57:35] broken even or made a loss. If we took ourselves out, we didn’t know that, you know, [00:57:40] we just looked at the profit based on what we were doing. So it was a wake up call to say that the [00:57:45] model had never worked. It had never, never worked. And, you know, the model was [00:57:50] that, you know, we were paying too high a percentage for what we offer as a practice. You know, we have Tkos, [00:57:55] we have NPCs, we have loads of scanners, we have high end equipment. And [00:58:00] we were there on a percentage of 50%, which we, you know, we had to reduce.

Dr Mumta Jilka: And the other thing was [00:58:05] we just opened up a squat, a squat that requires intense amount of capital. So, [00:58:10] you know, you’re you to generate that level of income from [00:58:15] those. It takes a while like you’ll invest, but you won’t see the revenue, the return until maybe [00:58:20] six months, 12 months down the line. Um, so there was a lot of pressure on our existing building [00:58:25] and on the existing, like income, if you like the liquidity to, like, be able [00:58:30] to build this.

Prav Solanki: I work with a lot of practices. Right. [00:58:35] And I see what associates have to do.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. [00:58:40]

Prav Solanki: To convert a patient. Being an associate in this practice [00:58:45] is a gift. Yeah, it really is. From all the [00:58:50] running around, from your NPCs tko’s the investment [00:58:55] that you guys make in marketing, and then the conversion of that for [00:59:00] your associates to walk in and do what they do. Um, is a dream. [00:59:05] It really is. Um, and so what [00:59:10] did you do? Did you did you drop the percentages [00:59:15] of your associates.

Dr Amit Jilka: And it was. Yeah, it was very emotional. We sat everyone down. Um, [00:59:20] well, we individually had a meeting with every single associate and told them the situation of the practice [00:59:25] that our accountant has said based on the route we’re going, we can declare bankruptcy. That’s [00:59:30] how extreme it was, unless we did something. So it’s make or break for us. So [00:59:35] we sat them down and said that your percentage has been dropped. Um, and we had [00:59:40] tears. We had big emotions. We had a few people hand in their notice within a week. Um, [00:59:45] but thankfully all of them, you know, retracted it and stayed with us. And [00:59:50] they believed in what we were offering. And I think they they genuinely do believe that we offered [00:59:55] a good package.

Dr Mumta Jilka: There was a couple that actually turned around and said to us that, you know what, whatever you guys [01:00:00] need, you just do it because we’re going to be here, whatever. And I think when those [01:00:05] individuals said that, I think we had tears in our eyes and it was just like, okay, let’s, [01:00:10] let’s take this like, like I said.

Dr Amit Jilka: A good number of associates said [01:00:15] to us that what we’ve done for them in their careers and their, you know, in their life and what they’ve achieved [01:00:20] at home and for their families, you know, no one else has ever done that for them. So whatever we say, they’ll [01:00:25] do, and, you know, that made us emotional, you know, because that’s that’s suddenly associates has always been [01:00:30] this associate principal divide. And, you know, I don’t feel like we’ve had that. And I thought we would have had that [01:00:35] after we’d, you know, reduced the percentages and, you know, but it hasn’t, you know, we’re still.

Dr Mumta Jilka: It [01:00:40] was quite good because they were coming back. They were like, okay, let’s do this, let’s try this, let’s do this, let’s. And it was almost like it [01:00:45] was all of our problems. It wasn’t just my problem. This was like a team problem.

Prav Solanki: You’ve all gone into fight and flight [01:00:50] mode together, right?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know that that was important. [01:00:55]

Prav Solanki: Did you guys roll your sleeves up? Did you start doing more dentistry to to bring [01:01:00] some income back into it? Notch that 5% up?

Dr Amit Jilka: No, I think the percentages have [01:01:05] dropped in fairness, um, because the practice has grown bigger. But we did suddenly [01:01:10] do a lot more mentoring. So, you know, I was with the clinicians and I still am. 9 [01:01:15] to 5 doing cases with them. So yes, I didn’t see my [01:01:20] own patients as such, but I was seeing a lot more patients with the associates to really push them to start doing [01:01:25] full arches and sinus lifting and more complex cases so that they they grow [01:01:30] and the practice grows.

Prav Solanki: What is the most important part of that [01:01:35] side of things to impact profitability? I know obviously there’s [01:01:40] stuff like clinical skills and all the rest of it, but if you guys were thinking about, let’s say, [01:01:45] the mentoring side of things, what’s the most important thing that a practice [01:01:50] owner can do to mentor their associates to tunnel vision on profitability? [01:01:55]

Dr Amit Jilka: I think it’s actually been hands on with the mentoring [01:02:00] and being there for consultations. You know how many principals have sat in on a consultation with their [01:02:05] associates? I’ve done it for all my associates. I’ve listened to them giving them feedback and [01:02:10] told them what the other associates would do and the associates that are converting well and giving patients a better experience. [01:02:15] And what you’re not doing is this and, you know, we actually publish [01:02:20] statistics on each associate on their pay statements so that it’s very clear, transparent about what they’ve [01:02:25] done and what they’ve not done. And so as a principal, I think you just need to be a lot more hands on and [01:02:30] open to actually being in surgery with these guys so that they can understand, because as a principal, [01:02:35] you’ve got this, you know, unique situation where you’re seeing from above what all the associates [01:02:40] are doing in your practice. One associate doesn’t know what the other is doing, but you know it. So if someone’s [01:02:45] doing something good that’s working, it should be exposed to the rest of them so that they all come up. And [01:02:50] I don’t think as principals, most principals don’t do any of that. What we do.

Prav Solanki: Not at all. [01:02:55] I don’t know any principal who sits in their associates consultations. [01:03:00] And so are you telling me, actually, the most impactful [01:03:05] thing you can do is not about stick this implant in at 33.5 degrees [01:03:10] and torque it by this much, and use this and use it. But it’s more to do with communication.

Dr Amit Jilka: It’s communication. [01:03:15] Yeah. Communication. And how to do the consultation and how to treatment [01:03:20] plan, which is all part of that first part of that patient interaction, not [01:03:25] the clinical. Yes, we teach them how to do sedation and upskill them clinically. But you can’t do those clinical [01:03:30] stuff if your patients are not saying yes to those treatments. And it’s that initial bit that’s the critical [01:03:35] part.

Prav Solanki: And what about yourself? Did you start doing more clinical in [01:03:40] after the 2024 or did you step things up? Or was [01:03:45] it just the same?

Dr Mumta Jilka: So for me, because I do a lot more Invisalign, it’s a lot more, um, [01:03:50] it’s not so clinical. It is clinical. But obviously implants is on a different level, like you need to be [01:03:55] very clinically involved. So for me it was more just mentoring, doing treatment planning [01:04:00] with the associate, showing them, you know, how to avoid pitfalls, things like refinements [01:04:05] how you can. Rather than buying another set of refiners, just use some of the, you know, those [01:04:10] tools that we can use. Um, it was just stuff like that really, and just making sure that we were hitting the [01:04:15] right number of cases per month. We were talking about it correctly with the patients. It was consultation, [01:04:20] really the most important part, because if we like I said, without the yes, you can’t [01:04:25] do part B, which is the clinical stuff.

Prav Solanki: And so what [01:04:30] does Abbey House look like today? I mean, you’ve had those that dark period, that 2024 [01:04:35] where you were told, what are you doing, guys? You could be filing for bankruptcy. [01:04:40] Clearly in both of your minds, that was never an option. Yeah. It was never [01:04:45] going to happen.

Dr Amit Jilka: Never gonna.

Prav Solanki: Happen. Um, and so fast forward to today. [01:04:50] What does the business look like?

Dr Amit Jilka: So financially [01:04:55] stable again. Very stable. Um, record number of implants placed [01:05:00] per month. Record number of Invisalign cases per month of all time. Record [01:05:05] number of turnover. Um, so, um, but with actual profit left in [01:05:10] the account.

Dr Mumta Jilka: We’re very data driven.

Dr Amit Jilka: Now.

Dr Mumta Jilka: So whereas before it was growth kind of on an [01:05:15] ad hoc kind of sporadic, we’ll have a look. It’s everything’s very data driven. And [01:05:20] the amount of times where me and him will go into our business, almost like a patient would. So [01:05:25] we’re checking now. So we like is the online booking system working? Are the telephone lines being [01:05:30] answered? Is this being done? We’re almost like auditors. We’re walking around and checking [01:05:35] things with like, for instance, if an associate’s done a treatment plan, let’s have a look. What is that [01:05:40] treatment plan? And it’s almost you’re learning from your own business now. Like what is what needs to change, what needs [01:05:45] to improve. Whereas before it was like everything, you know, we we felt like we had to be completely clinically involved [01:05:50] to do everything. Whereas now it’s like, let’s look at the numbers. What is the numbers telling [01:05:55] us? What is the numbers telling us?

Dr Amit Jilka: And we understand from the social perspective, I mean, which other profession has [01:06:00] a 10% pay cut overnight. You know, that’s gonna hurt anybody with [01:06:05] regardless.

Prav Solanki: Which other profession allows the [01:06:10] fee earner to walk away with 40% or 45%? [01:06:15]

Dr Amit Jilka: That’s true as well. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Doesn’t happen. Not with lawyers, not in any other profession [01:06:20] that I’m aware of. Yeah. So I mean, I know, I know.

Dr Amit Jilka: I think [01:06:25] yeah, regardless, I think from an associate perspective to have a pay cut overnight is, is [01:06:30] very traumatic. And so we insured and did our best to do everything [01:06:35] in our power to make sure that the take home pay is roughly the same. And I [01:06:40] can genuinely say what we were paying associates a year ago is exactly what’s coming out of our account now. [01:06:45] And so we have maintained it, and that’s with working with the associates and [01:06:50] together and looking at all the parameters to make sure that the business is working for them and [01:06:55] for us.

Prav Solanki: I remember having that conversation with you, Amit. I remember us discussing [01:07:00] that And you were terrified about having that conversation, [01:07:05] and it was out of fear of the [01:07:10] way you care about your associates. I think I think it was just, you [01:07:15] know, you were more concerned about them than your business at the [01:07:20] time. I remember, um, you know, um, and [01:07:25] I guess it just shows how much you guys care. And funnily enough, we’ve spent [01:07:30] a day here at Abbey House, and I’ve got to meet a lot of your associates today, and they [01:07:35] talk about how you are with people. Do [01:07:40] you know what I mean? And I don’t know what it is. No one’s, like, leaked the magic, right? [01:07:45] But it must be the way you deal with people or handle people. Stacey’s been telling me [01:07:50] the same today. Do you know what I mean? Is that, you know, it’s the way you guys are [01:07:55] with people that that makes this place what it is. Um. [01:08:00]

Dr Mumta Jilka: It’s quite nice, isn’t it?

Dr Amit Jilka: Thank you. Prav. Yeah. [01:08:05]

Prav Solanki: Listen, I’m only I’m only regurgitating what I’ve heard today. Right? From. [01:08:10] From various people I’ve interacted with. But what’s next [01:08:15] for Abbey House? Are you going to stop here?

Dr Amit Jilka: No, no. Like I said, [01:08:20] it’s, uh, two years on since the last one, so we are scheduled to have another one. And, [01:08:25] uh, you know, we’re not saying no, but. Yeah, I think we will have, [01:08:30] um, the goal is to have a few more, at least in the next couple of years.

Prav Solanki: And [01:08:35] then. So what’s the now you’ve got strategy right? Before you didn’t have strategy. [01:08:40] We’re growing by osmosis and things just happened. And then you know you had that pitfall and you [01:08:45] pick yourself back up. Um what is your strategy [01:08:50] now? Where are you going and where do you want to get to?

Dr Amit Jilka: So [01:08:55] our strategies to have practices that are not too close to each [01:09:00] other, at least like a 20 or 30 minute distance from one another so that we capture that market. [01:09:05] Um, and to just develop the same formula that we’ve done in these other practices where [01:09:10] we mentor associates that want to grow and build practices that offer [01:09:15] the full plethora of what dentistry offers. You know, the sedation, the implants, Invisalign, [01:09:20] um, and just general dentistry done well, which I think is missing in this country. [01:09:25]

Prav Solanki: And then in terms of that, um, [01:09:30] where’s what are you doing it all for? Is it for to build a group [01:09:35] of practices for this huge exit? Is it to build [01:09:40] something for your children to maybe take what is the. [01:09:45]

Dr Amit Jilka: I don’t think we’ve ever thought about exiting, um, which apparently we should be [01:09:50] thinking about, which all the accountants and everyone says you need to think about exiting, but we’ve never really thought about it. You [01:09:55] know, for us, it’s just we enjoy the growth aspect of it. Um, and we do want to leave a legacy [01:10:00] for our children as well. You know, so it’s more for them. Um, for us, the [01:10:05] our lifestyle doesn’t change.

Dr Mumta Jilka: We kind of have this love for the game type of thing. It’s like, you know, when it’s in [01:10:10] you, you can’t. It’s hard to switch it off. Like, it’s almost like you’re creating. [01:10:15] You’re in this creative mindset where, okay, I want to create another one, another one. So I [01:10:20] mean, for as long as I guess until it keeps up with us, we’ll just keep going.

Dr Amit Jilka: Until [01:10:25] it’s not fun and enjoyable.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Dr Amit Jilka: That’s it. That’s when we’ll, you know.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:10:30]

Dr Amit Jilka: We’ve got to enjoy it and we enjoy it. Last year if you asked me, are you going to expand? It would be 100%. [01:10:35] No, we’re going to shrink and we’re not going to do anything for years and years. But we have turned it around, [01:10:40] you know, in a short period of time.

Prav Solanki: It’s easy to forget, isn’t it?

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah, very easy to forget. You [01:10:45] know, I’ve got a very short memory.

Dr Mumta Jilka: That’s all right. I’ll make up for that. Yeah. [01:10:50]

Prav Solanki: If you were to look back at [01:10:55] what you’ve achieved over this time and maybe have your chance again. Um, [01:11:00] what would have you done differently during [01:11:05] this journey?

Dr Mumta Jilka: I think I would have kept it the same because [01:11:10] I think we needed to go through this. Mhm. Um, I’m [01:11:15] actually like I’m, I am quite proud of the fact that, you know, we went [01:11:20] through this high and low. It’s taught us so much. And I think that’s what’s kind of [01:11:25] driving us even now to problem solve it [01:11:30] as much as we can to make it even better than what it is. So, um.

Dr Amit Jilka: And I think me and mum [01:11:35] to thrive in crisis mode.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Together.

Dr Amit Jilka: I think together now. [01:11:40] But for me, I was always in crisis mode. And so I do deliver when it’s in a crisis. And I think part of [01:11:45] that journey now that knows when, um, it’s in crisis mode would bring it together. And so it keeps us [01:11:50] going.

Prav Solanki: So when you’re both in crisis mode. Isn’t that a recipe for [01:11:55] disaster? Like you’re both panicking. You’re both in crisis mode or.

Dr Amit Jilka: No, you’ll see me. [01:12:00] You’ll see me. You’ll see my light eyes bright up, you know. And I start getting excited and happy that. Oh my [01:12:05] God, we’ve got nothing in the account. What we’re gonna do. It’s very unusual. I’m [01:12:10] a very unusual character.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, it’s.

Dr Amit Jilka: Weird, I think, to grinds me.

Dr Mumta Jilka: So, yeah, it’s kind of weird. Like [01:12:15] when we’re both knowing, like. Like you said, crisis mode. I think we grow up in that moment [01:12:20] because we both know in the shits. Yeah. So it’s like, okay, what are we gonna do to come out of it? Then it’s like, you [01:12:25] know, thinking hats on. And then because you’re always trying to have each other’s backs, it’s like, okay, [01:12:30] what needs to happen next? You just dive in. Whatever needs to be done, you do it. Whether it’s doing a bit more dentistry, doing [01:12:35] a bit more mentoring, looking at finances, renegotiating, blah, blah, blah. It’s like you just.

Prav Solanki: But [01:12:40] are you the opposites in crisis mode? Are you the same? Like, do you handle stress differently? [01:12:45]

Dr Mumta Jilka: No, I am, I don’t like stress, I hate being, I like to be very like this [01:12:50] straight.

Prav Solanki: Just like the exams.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Just like the.

Prav Solanki: Exams.

Dr Mumta Jilka: You know, I like to be prepared rather than reactive. [01:12:55] This guy. He’s a firecracker. He’ll just put me in those situations. [01:13:00] So it’s, uh. It’s, uh. But then there’s times when [01:13:05] I’ll start feeling the stress, and then he’ll have to calm me down. But when when he’s feeling [01:13:10] it, it’s like I just. I’ll become the calm person. Yeah. It’s weird.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. [01:13:15]

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah, I will. Any day of the. You know, I just want calmness, [01:13:20] you know, money coming in. Money going out. Just calm calm, calm. [01:13:25]

Dr Amit Jilka: And that would be a nightmare for me. Life is like that. Yeah.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Without [01:13:30] me, you live on the edge. You keep falling off the edge. And then you have to climb back up on.

Dr Amit Jilka: And [01:13:35] the kids know as well. You know, our holidays and everything are planned around just doing crazy stuff, you know? [01:13:40]

Dr Mumta Jilka: My oldest like. Mom. Don’t worry. When I grow up, I’ll make sure I do. Great.

Dr Amit Jilka: We [01:13:45] take the kids camping regularly. We do crazy holidays. You know? When Amy was six months, [01:13:50] we took her camping. You know, our parents just think we’re crazy, but that’s just. I [01:13:55] think I think it builds confidence in the kids, you know?

Prav Solanki: But you make time for those holidays, right? I [01:14:00] was speaking to Stacey earlier, and she goes, you know, they they work incredibly hard [01:14:05] and they’re here and the stresses. But every school holiday they go away.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. [01:14:10]

Prav Solanki: Is that is that really important to you.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Really important. So important. He does [01:14:15] it all. He’s just like every holiday he’ll count. We’ve only got seven holidays left with the kids. We’ve [01:14:20] got six holidays. He puts like this timeline thing on. So then it’s like, oh, we have to make sure [01:14:25] we make the most of it. But that’s our time. Like it’s become so ingrained.

Dr Amit Jilka: I think for me. [01:14:30] Monday to Friday is 100 miles an hour. So I’m not really even though I’m with the kids, I’m not mentally [01:14:35] there with them. And so having the holidays means that I’m 100% focussed and [01:14:40] the kids know it, that dad will be back for the next holiday. And so it’s the holidays that keeps me connected with [01:14:45] the children.

Prav Solanki: And they look forward to.

Dr Amit Jilka: That. And they look forward to that, that they’re going to get proper dad’s attention. [01:14:50]

Prav Solanki: And do they know that? They pretty much know they’re losing dad between the holidays. Yeah. And they’re getting back [01:14:55] holidays 100%.

Dr Amit Jilka: Yeah. They just get mommy takes over during the week. Dad comes back out for [01:15:00] the holidays. So they all seem as the fun parent, don’t they? For that reason.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. It’s a fun parent. I’m the just boring [01:15:05] mommy homework.

Prav Solanki: Who does the telling off.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Me.

Dr Amit Jilka: Mom? Yeah. [01:15:10]

Prav Solanki: So you like celebrity dad?

Dr Amit Jilka: Basically, yeah.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Yeah. That’s [01:15:15] me. Celebrity dad. I walk in and can do nothing wrong. I get all the hugs.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Yeah. [01:15:20] Just. Why?

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And you do all the graft. All the.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Graft. Homework? [01:15:25] Yeah. You know?

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dr Mumta Jilka: After school clubs. Yeah. I’m a taxi driver between, [01:15:30] you know. But no daddy gets. It’s like sunshine and rainbows. [01:15:35] Mommy comes. It’s like depressing.

Prav Solanki: Yeah. Same in our household. [01:15:40] Exactly the same in our household. So I asked this question to [01:15:45] all of our guests. Okay. Um, and [01:15:50] I’ll start with you, Monty. Um, imagine it was your last day on the planet, [01:15:55] and you had to leave some words of wisdom. [01:16:00] Three pieces of advice for the little ones. What would you say?

Dr Mumta Jilka: Wow. [01:16:05] Uh, what would I say? I [01:16:10] would say. Have [01:16:15] fun. Don’t let fear take over. Um. [01:16:20] And I would say. Always [01:16:25] try and strive for being [01:16:30] better yourself. Whatever that. Whatever you’re doing in life, just.

Prav Solanki: Whatever that means. [01:16:35]

Dr Mumta Jilka: Whatever that means. Yeah.

Prav Solanki: Just what would you say to them? Um.

Dr Amit Jilka: I’d say [01:16:40] jump and the net will appear.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Dr Amit Jilka: And I lived my life like that. And [01:16:45] I quote that all the time, don’t I? So, you know, if you make that big move. Yeah, suddenly your net will [01:16:50] appear and catch you when you figure it out.

Prav Solanki: From where does that come from?

Dr Amit Jilka: That [01:16:55] saying.

Prav Solanki: No no no no.

Dr Amit Jilka: No.

Prav Solanki: Not that saying. It’s that you [01:17:00] are that guy who will go to the edge of the cliff. You are that guy who [01:17:05] will, in times of stress, say, let’s just open another practice. [01:17:10] Yeah. You know, I was speaking to Stacy earlier and she said to me [01:17:15] at one point I might had nine projects on his board and had to rob seven of them off. [01:17:20] Yeah, yeah. But he just wants to keep going [01:17:25] with more and more ideas. Where do you think that comes from? Where do you think that stems from?

Dr Amit Jilka: I [01:17:30] think it goes back to the childhood, doesn’t it? It goes back to my, my life story and, [01:17:35] uh, doing multiple things and cramming stuff in and needing that [01:17:40] feeling of being on the edge. Um, and, and I [01:17:45] think it’s from that really. It’s just living life on the edge. You know, for [01:17:50] me, you know, it’s always that things will get better. You know, my dad will get better. [01:17:55] And that’s how I’ve led my whole life. My whole childhood has been around that my dad will get better, [01:18:00] and he always has.

Prav Solanki: Um, and he had a good he had a good few cracks where you thought it was. [01:18:05] It was.

Dr Amit Jilka: Plenty. Yeah. It was every five years, you know, unfortunately he passed away in 2019. But, you know, even [01:18:10] then, you know, even at the point when he was passing away, [01:18:15] I just it didn’t hit me because I just kept thinking he’s coming back tomorrow. And it was [01:18:20] just it didn’t hit me until even after it passed away that. No, no, he’s coming back. He’s coming back. And it took [01:18:25] me so long to actually absorb the fact that he’s not coming back. And that was, you know, [01:18:30] the difficult part of the whole situation.

Prav Solanki: So jump and the net will [01:18:35] appear.

Dr Amit Jilka: Jump in. The net will appear.

Prav Solanki: Okay. Another two pieces of advice.

Dr Amit Jilka: Um. [01:18:40] Don’t take everything so seriously. Um, you know, like, there’s life [01:18:45] is you’re only going to live it once. So just enjoy everything that happens, you know? Things do [01:18:50] work itself out and and do put your family first. Um, [01:18:55] it’s easy to say everyone says it, but do you actually do it? You know.

Prav Solanki: Most.

Dr Amit Jilka: Of the time. And [01:19:00] if you. Yeah, if you’re super, super busy, then you’ve got to figure out a way that you’re going to it’s going to work, [01:19:05] you know, and like for me it’s the holidays. Um, focus on the holidays. [01:19:10]

Prav Solanki: Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you invite? Oh, [01:19:15] wow.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Uh, who would I invite? I would have, [01:19:20] um.

Prav Solanki: Anyone in the world.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Gosh, [01:19:25] there’s so many. Uh, I’d have, um. Tony [01:19:30] Robbins, I’d have Barack Obama. I’d [01:19:35] have, um. How else would I want? Um. [01:19:40] Ah. Oh my gosh. See, normally I can come up [01:19:45] with these ones on the spot. Um. And I would have. Elon [01:19:50] Musk.

Prav Solanki: Interesting [01:19:55] party.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah. Maybe.

Prav Solanki: Anyone have [01:20:00] it? Who would you have at your party?

Dr Amit Jilka: It’s a tough one, isn’t it? Um, I’d [01:20:05] have Sachin Tendulkar. Okay. Yeah. Big Indian fan. I think it’d be amazing [01:20:10] to just sit down with him and listen to his life story. Um, I’d have Mahatma [01:20:15] Gandhi. I think it would be very interesting to see [01:20:20] the whole history behind what happened. And. I’m [01:20:25] not sure. I can’t think of anyone else. Really. Prav. [01:20:30] Hmm.

Prav Solanki: We can go out for dinner anytime.

Dr Amit Jilka: Steve [01:20:35] Jobs.

Prav Solanki: Steve Jobs.

Dr Amit Jilka: I think it’d just be [01:20:40] a crazy conversation.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Amit Jilka: And what a combination of three people.

Prav Solanki: Cool. [01:20:45]

Dr Amit Jilka: Cool.

Prav Solanki: Well, listen. Thank you.

Dr Mumta Jilka: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: No, thank you so much.

Dr Amit Jilka: No. Thank you, thank you. [01:20:50]

Dr Mumta Jilka: Ah. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, [01:20:55] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [01:21:00] dentistry. Your hosts, Payman [01:21:05] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:21:10] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me [01:21:15] and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had [01:21:20] to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think [01:21:25] about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might [01:21:30] get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star [01:21:35] rating.

Dev Patel: In my world, I’m like, look, if you come work for us, you’re self-employed. You can do whatever you [00:00:05] want. You enjoy it. You work hard, you do well. Great. You save us long term. If you [00:00:10] don’t like it, you leave. There’s no targets. There’s no time, nothing. We’re not going to charge you for courses. We’re not [00:00:15] going to charge you for any kind of clawback. You leave because it’s a free world, and I want you to do well in life. [00:00:20] So if I grow you for 3 or 4 years and you’ve, you know, you develop the skills really well, when you buy your own practice, you want to go [00:00:25] do anything in life, do it absolutely fine. Because in the day, if you’re a good person, that will make [00:00:30] a huge difference in karma and that will always come back. And I’ve got left and come back after and said, shit, we had [00:00:35] a bad time with you. We should have stayed with you after, right? And that will come out of this world. But if you’re one of those owners [00:00:40] out there, small groups or owners who just want to keep this, the same mentality of [00:00:45] I own my business. I put all my blood, sweat and tears into it and I will make sure that everyone who works there works [00:00:50] for me like a, you know, like basically like an employee. You’re never going to succeed or grow the business [00:00:55] any more than what it is now.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is Dental Leaders. The [00:01:05] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:10] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:15] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: It’s a great pleasure to introduce [00:01:20] Dev Patel, the owner of Dental Beauty Partners or the CEO of [00:01:25] Dental Beauty Partners, to the podcast. And me and dev regularly have conversations [00:01:30] about running and growing practices. And certainly when I’ve got some advice [00:01:35] I need or, you know, there’s clients who reach out to me about [00:01:40] selling their practices, growing their practices, or growing groups. I’ve got them on speed dial, [00:01:45] and, um, he’s often a voice of reason for me when it comes [00:01:50] to just cutting through the BS when it comes to practice growth. Um, and [00:01:55] I guess the purpose of this podcast is to just go through a few ideas [00:02:00] that we’ve shared during our conversations about practice growth, and [00:02:05] it was stimulated off the back of a conversation where we that we had recently where we said, [00:02:10] wouldn’t this be great if the cause that we were having were on a podcast? [00:02:15] So that’s why we’re here today. So def I want to just sort [00:02:20] of start by, um, getting your maybe your top tips of, let’s [00:02:25] say we’ve got a dental practice owner who is considering sort [00:02:30] of mid growth level, um, doing okay, not a, not a squat setup [00:02:35] or anything like that. And they want to take their practice to the next level. Now I get calls [00:02:40] about this all the time and, and I give my standard advice which which we’ll [00:02:45] go through in a bit. But what are the key areas of the business that that you look at when [00:02:50] you’re advising people to grow their practice? Or once you’ve acquired a practice, or [00:02:55] when you’re looking at a practice with potential to acquire. What are the key? What are the key areas [00:03:00] of growth that you look at? You know.

Dev Patel: Thanks for having me on Prav.

Prav Solanki: Um.

Dev Patel: Look, [00:03:05] I think everyone’s different in terms of where they are in life. Um, I always start with that first [00:03:10] because not everyone’s ambitious, right? Not everyone wants to have 100 practices or have £1 million [00:03:15] EBITDA business. Everyone’s different. And I think it’s best to kind of think [00:03:20] around that first, because if you haven’t got the right ambition and the drive and the kind of, [00:03:25] you know, energy and time to put into growing the business, it’ll never happen. And that’s what most owners [00:03:30] you know are going through. When I look at buying a practice of a 60 year old or a 50 year [00:03:35] old who’s kind of just checked out. Now kids have passed, you know, school and university moved out of house, [00:03:40] they’re not really needing to grow their net wealth anymore in the next ten years. They’re not really [00:03:45] that interested. And that’s why it’s an opportunity for us to go in there with the energy and the time with a young [00:03:50] partner to go in there and obviously acquire a business. So number one is the time and energy. If you’ve got that, [00:03:55] then that’s the So that’s the first step. If you have that and you’ve got the time, you know, and the [00:04:00] resources to grow the business and you can do some really simple things. First, a lot of [00:04:05] hats I see have gotten stuck in this kind of, you know, especially an NHS practice. They [00:04:10] got stuck in this kind of, uh, never ending wheel of just, oh, I’ve got no debt. [00:04:15] I’ve got a contract pretty much free of charge 20 or 30 years ago.

Dev Patel: I’ve got, you know, cash coming in every [00:04:20] year of 200, 300, 400,000, you know, EBITDA, pretty good kind of cash flow for business. [00:04:25] I don’t need to do any more marketing. I don’t need to do anything to business, because actually I don’t get paid more money from the government [00:04:30] for doing more. Right? So why do I need to do anything? And it’s crazy that most [00:04:35] practices I see, the majority of practices I see do not accept new patients, [00:04:40] right? I mean, just imagine any business in any world that says, I don’t want to have a new patient in my [00:04:45] practice. I mean, like, you’re literally just shoot yourself in the foot, right? So that’s [00:04:50] very common. That’s very, very, very common. And actually they they purposely [00:04:55] said, don’t come see us. We don’t have no more capacity left on NHS because they don’t want to have [00:05:00] the potentially awkward discussion of what can we do outside the NHS. You know, [00:05:05] and it’s a good thing, a bad thing, you know, it’s great. We’ve got a solid patient base [00:05:10] for many years that you’ve been, you know, treating well and taking care of them. And that’s good to have that. But [00:05:15] opportunity to have new patients coming in both privately and through the NHS is huge. [00:05:20] And then they also complain about I’ve got no space to to do more dentistry because, you know, I’m doing [00:05:25] 600 days per chair or I’ve got no capacity left. I had more surgeries in, [00:05:30] you know, expand the building backwards upwards change.

Prav Solanki: And I’ve [00:05:35] just I’ve just got a question on that, on that NHS piece. Right. So you said that these clinics have capacity, [00:05:40] they have fulfilled their contract or whatever. Right. And then they say we’re not taking on new patients. [00:05:45] Right.

Dev Patel: Even the whole year round, not just at the end, the whole year round.

Prav Solanki: Okay. But [00:05:50] they say we’re not taking on new patients is the reason for that, that they haven’t got the physical chair [00:05:55] space time to do it, or they haven’t got the nerves to have that conversation and say, convert [00:06:00] that patient to, let’s say, a private patient, or they don’t have the headspace to even think about [00:06:05] potentially private dentistry. Like I want to wrap my head around, like if they’re [00:06:10] at capacity with their NHS, I’d be saying to them, why on earth do you want to take on another [00:06:15] NHS patient? What’s that going to do for you revenue wise, business growth wise, valuation [00:06:20] wise versus a private patient? Right. So so I’m playing [00:06:25] devil’s advocate here. I’d be saying, what the hell do you want more NHS patients for. And you’re saying [00:06:30] actually you should be opening your doors and saying take on some more NHS, NHS patients. Right. [00:06:35] And, and you’re, you’re, you’re that business owner who’s, I guess the [00:06:40] expert at buying mixed practices and growing them rapidly. [00:06:45] Right. So what’s your lens on that.

Dev Patel: Yeah. So I think with mixed [00:06:50] practices regardless of that I I mean, I keep things very, very simple in life generally. [00:06:55] If someone comes to my front door with their NHS fee paying exempt or private, [00:07:00] it’s irrelevant. The human being is the mouth. Let’s give them the best treatment plan possible that you do [00:07:05] for your mum, or your son or your daughter, or however you treat your family. And that’s the best treatment plan. Give [00:07:10] them all the options, both within the NHS and outside the NHS. But that’s it. Keep it really simple. [00:07:15] If you do that, your business will flourish, right? But you have to have the discussion [00:07:20] with the patient. You cannot just shy away from it saying let’s do a five minute appointment for you in, out, in, out [00:07:25] and just stick to the one hat pony, which is NHS dentistry all the time. You [00:07:30] have to be discussing other options. Now, I’m not saying discuss other options. If you can’t do it clinically [00:07:35] now, I’ll be surprised if no one can offer any private industry clinically, because that’d be pretty worrying. But at least the basic [00:07:40] stuff like Typekit composite or private Emax crown or veneer. Now you might have to do some more training [00:07:45] for this, or get dentists in your practice to do that work, but that’s definitely available around the whole country. Number one. [00:07:50] Number two is why you asked the question about why would you say you want to have more patients [00:07:55] in the practice? It’s because they’ve got this simple contract with 1000 patients to [00:08:00] to service every year.

Dev Patel: They’ve been doing it for 20 years. Nothing has to change. It’s basic dentistry. [00:08:05] You come in, do a filling, do a crown, do a filling, do a crown. Whatever you need from the patients. Keep them kind of stable [00:08:10] and that’s it. And there’s no headspace. There’s no there’s no ambition or desire to do anything different. Because [00:08:15] why would you if you’re going to make, you know, 30%, 25% margin of no debt [00:08:20] every year for doing no thinking and no, you know, extra investment in the business. It’s [00:08:25] basically, you know, old school way of thinking, right? But we’re seeing in the news every day. I’m sure [00:08:30] you know, you’re seeing this too, in terms of in the news cycles, about eight out of ten adults can’t get a new [00:08:35] appointment on the NHS because no one accepts patients on the NHS in the first place. Right? If [00:08:40] you just add in some more capacity in your practice from 3 or 4 surgeries to 6 or 7, by adding in [00:08:45] some more surgeries or expand the building, you now have capacity to half the number of days [00:08:50] per jear. Deliver more care to all your patients for longer amount of time.

Dev Patel: So other than a ten minute [00:08:55] point, you’ve got half an hour to an hour appointment now, right? Um, and that’s what it comes down to just basically kind of, you know, [00:09:00] just spreading that kind of contract density into more surgeries. That’s number one. Um, [00:09:05] if you haven’t got capacity to grow, then think about moving the whole thing a mile away within a mile, you know, [00:09:10] then it is absolutely happy with you moving a practice away to relocate to bigger business. That would be a minimum [00:09:15] of five year investment cycle. So you’re actually growing the business by moving it. But by doing that you now have [00:09:20] these bigger locations. You get brand new facilities, modern. And you can, you [00:09:25] know, probably get better, you know, actual location on the high street rather than, you know, typically most practice I see are [00:09:30] houses that have been converted over years and which no one really wants to have that, but it just kind of is the [00:09:35] way it is right now that E1, D1 are really simple to get that cost the high streets, you should be looking [00:09:40] at moving it to all these vacant, huge premises that have been, you know, empty by all the shops that are leaving [00:09:45] high streets. Go there your, you know, your practice with a glass shop on the High Street near [00:09:50] your area. Amazing place to be and no problem from there just as well.

Dev Patel: Um, [00:09:55] and then the third thing is just the really basic part here is just, you know, patient journey, [00:10:00] which I know, I’m sure you know, you’re passionate about as well. Just take care of your patients properly. I mean, a lot of dentists [00:10:05] I speak to go. Yeah. We take great care of patients and asked them. Okay, cool. You go take great care of [00:10:10] patients. So what’s your patient going to look like? And it’s a 15 ten minute examination in [00:10:15] in the practice ask them how the holiday was. You know the kids maybe do a couple of fillings quickly like [00:10:20] within two minutes and then go home. And I think on NHS that is not a patient journey. [00:10:25] That is you just fulfilling your contract as fast as possible because you haven’t got time, because you’re trying to densely [00:10:30] put all your ideas on one surgery, put more chairs in, spread it over more chairs, [00:10:35] get more time back with the patient. Spend more time taking photographs, talking to patient properly, going [00:10:40] through all the options privately and within the NHS. And you’re going to get your growth just by doing that. Like [00:10:45] the hourly rate on that loan will triple or ten times easily. And then [00:10:50] obviously marketing is the last thing, which is obviously great and KPIs. But um, yeah, [00:10:55] talk about afterwards when.

Prav Solanki: It comes to things like KPIs. Um, you know, this is [00:11:00] something that um, so I’ve been through a, as a practice owner, [00:11:05] I’ve been through an acquisition. Um, and then you have acquired several [00:11:10] of our clients and also kiss Dental my brother’s practice. And [00:11:15] I was amazed at how quickly the due diligence process went through [00:11:20] with you guys, compared to the due diligence process that I went through, just in terms [00:11:25] of the racking through the numbers and so on and so forth. And I remember when [00:11:30] Kailash came to me and he said, look, I’ve had an offer and they’ve told me that, you know, this [00:11:35] deal is going to be turned around in this time. And I said, it’s absolutely bollocks. Yeah. There’s no [00:11:40] way there’s absolutely no way they’re going to turn the deal around in that time. They’re just telling you what you [00:11:45] want to hear. But Well, true to your word, it did end up being a really, really [00:11:50] quick turnaround time. Um, what is it about your process when [00:11:55] looking at numbers? And at the beginning of this podcast, I said, you just cut through the BS. Like at the beginning of [00:12:00] this, you just said, look, I look at things really simple. Someone turns up with a mouth. Doesn’t matter whether private, exempt [00:12:05] or NHS, we need to deliver a service to them. Right? And when it comes to [00:12:10] sort of either a due diligence process or an acquisition, or when you’re looking through the financials [00:12:15] of a practice, um, what is what is it that you’re looking for? [00:12:20] And why is it that when you’re doing this process, it’s so [00:12:25] much quicker than anyone else?

Dev Patel: Yeah. Look, I think, um, first [00:12:30] of all, I kind of, um, lead on obviously all the new leads and dealflow that [00:12:35] comes within the business first, just because, you know, I’ve been in 15 years, Prav I mean, I did this before I was [00:12:40] even started. I was looking at practices, purchases and parallels. Right. So now when I look at PNL, I can tell you [00:12:45] eight seconds whether or not it’s profitable or it’s complete BS. And the numbers make sense or not. Um, [00:12:50] so look, the number one is, if, you know, dentistry, like other dentists, you understand [00:12:55] dentistry and the actual patient journey that, you know, the marketing, the lead flow, the workflows. [00:13:00] Um, the dentist reputation, the clinic, the quality of dentistry. That in itself [00:13:05] paints, you know, the the back canvas of a picture, you know, then all it is, [00:13:10] is just putting the dots and, you know, the actual you know, I don’t know what you’re drawing on, on the canvas [00:13:15] together. And really, if you’ve got the if you’ve got a good PNL with a good long track history, [00:13:20] I don’t like seeing things that have grown in 2 or 3 years, because it’s just a quick kind of up and down. Um, you know, [00:13:25] good track record history, um, some good kind of, you know, fundamental growth every year [00:13:30] over a ten year period, or having the same flat growth and not having any growth, which is opportunistic [00:13:35] kind of purchase is what you’re looking for, really.

Dev Patel: And then after that, just to make sure add backs and all the, you [00:13:40] know, the clinical aspects of a PNL makes sense because the rest of it anyone can look at. But [00:13:45] it’s very hard for non dentists to understand why am I adding back this orthodontic [00:13:50] brackets. Because that would recharge it back to dentists and therapist model etc. etc.. So you know you need to understand [00:13:55] the intricacies of dentistry and to be able to really understand that. And then, [00:14:00] you know, after seeing so many probably thousands and thousands of deals over the years, now you kind of know what what [00:14:05] looks right and what looks wrong in terms of the benchmarking and percentages. And, you know, you can probably quite easily [00:14:10] work that on your head. But look where in our model and this is different to everyone else [00:14:15] because we’re investing in partners with equity both both ways. We invest in people. [00:14:20] So I’m not investing in I mean, if I’m buying a underutilised practice, [00:14:25] I’m buying the physical premises and the contract. That’s it. And I’m putting my, my, my own person in there with a partner. [00:14:30] I invest in that person to run that business. If I’m buying into a kiss or to an ascent, [00:14:35] I’m buying into people that I, you know, I think could be great partners and can grow with us in the future. [00:14:40]

Dev Patel: And that’s pretty Completely different to looking at like, you know, due diligence and trying to do what [00:14:45] other groups do, which is look at every single possible, you know, you know, 150, I don’t [00:14:50] know, maybe it’s 150, 200 different kind of checklists of just tick tick tick tick tick [00:14:55] tick tick does, you know, does kind of tick all these boxes. That’s all very relevant. Like, yes, as long as you’re [00:15:00] not going to kill anyone and it’s got a good, decent, uh, you know, no red flags in there for the DH, I’m not overly [00:15:05] fussed what I want to invest in people that I’m actually working with, because that’s the one that, you know, will be the biggest [00:15:10] growth or decline in the future. Right? So yeah, it’s not as difficult [00:15:15] in our model. And it’s very similar to how private equity works. You know they invest in people and the business [00:15:20] is great. You know, it could be good because of uh, of the market [00:15:25] and tailwinds, because of the economics and stuff like that. And, and there might be a big trend right now with [00:15:30] X, Y, and Z by actually investing in the CEO and the founder and the people in the business, that’s where you’re actually investing in a [00:15:35] team. And that’s how I look at it as well.

Prav Solanki: Well, the numbers have got to stack up, right? You can’t [00:15:40] you can’t. You bet on a on a person because you like the cut of the jib or whatever, [00:15:45] right?

Dev Patel: That that that’s a given though, right? Like that’s just common sense. And it’s, uh, it’s really important [00:15:50] to, especially with acquisitions to make sure you don’t buy into a business that’s A11 [00:15:55] pony kind of show, because that’s just going to guarantee, like if it’s a two jetpacks with [00:16:00] one guy working there doing over half the turnover and he’s, you know, retirement age or [00:16:05] probably potentially not, you know, tied in for for long term equity. Why are you buying. You’re buying [00:16:10] nothing. You know you’re buying revenue. That’s going to basically go when that person leaves. And then you basically [00:16:15] pay a lot of money for that revenue that’s not there anymore afterwards. So it’s really important to don’t [00:16:20] get too emotionally bought into the whole lifestyle of, oh, he’s got a great [00:16:25] practice and a great location and he’s doing really well. He’s got a Ferrari and a nice car. I want to buy that practice. I want to back [00:16:30] him. That’s not how it’s gonna work or hurt. You have to always buy as a model [00:16:35] in a business. What am I paying for? Because you’re not paying for a stable and solid, [00:16:40] like a like a government contract or a good practice that’s got like a [00:16:45] long 20 or 30 year history about revenue being done by principle. You’re not really buying a business, [00:16:50] you’re just buying, you know, a goodwill for somebody to leave in three or 4 or 5 years time.

[TRANSITION]: Mhm. [00:16:55] Mhm.

Prav Solanki: And one of the things that really surprises me, um, when [00:17:00] I speak to clients of mine and when I have done sort of more intense coaching with clients, [00:17:05] is, um, the number of business owners, you put a PNL [00:17:10] in front of them and it might as well be written in Japanese. [00:17:15] They do not have a clue. You know, even simple things like difference [00:17:20] between gross and net. Right. And then how that net should be adjusted for a valuation. How if [00:17:25] that principle is taken, I don’t know, a salary out for himself that you [00:17:30] need to readjust in as an associate to value the business. And they’re making the [00:17:35] valuation on the back, on the back of the fact that they only need ten grand a month to live off. So that’s [00:17:40] all I’ll take out of the business. So there’s more profit in there. Um, do [00:17:45] you see similar things in practices that you’re acquiring, or even [00:17:50] with the partners that you’re sort of, should we say, um, [00:17:55] co-investing with? And how important is it for a business owner to understand these [00:18:00] key sort of financial KPIs for running their businesses? [00:18:05]

Dev Patel: I mean, it’s it’s massive. I mean, to [00:18:10] be honest with you, it’s no one’s fault. I would say the majority of business owners in the [00:18:15] UK don’t have a clue what parallels are, right? They just rely on their accountants to send them the numbers end of the year and say, this is [00:18:20] where we’re at. They’ve got no business training and that’s okay. I’m not saying [00:18:25] that’s good. It’s okay. You can get by by doing that and not having to really know your PNL. But [00:18:30] if you want to grow your business and know where you’re at, I always compare this to a [00:18:35] health check, right? Like how you’re healthy? Like getting a health check-up. Or how do you know how much [00:18:40] you weigh? You know, weighing yourself. You got no idea. That data drives everything in my life these days. And [00:18:45] why would you not drive your business based on data, the same way you would do for [00:18:50] when you try and plan, you know, a patient’s mouth and looking at information, evidence. We’re all evidence based [00:18:55] professionals. That’s what we’ve drilled into. But we have zero training on business [00:19:00] HR panels anything. And it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s an opportunity [00:19:05] because as soon as you do that you’re straight away going to add 3,040% revenue [00:19:10] or 34% cost savings or efficiencies by not doing much else. Now, [00:19:15] some people I’m not saying everyone, but some people are actually born innately with this skill without [00:19:20] having to do any training.

Dev Patel: And they might have picked it up like like for example, I picked this up [00:19:25] working my dad’s shop when I was like seven years old or six years old, back in the day in a pharmacy and just [00:19:30] sitting there having to work out how much I sell, you know, something behind the counter over the till was [00:19:35] and what the margin would be if I sold it for this much or that much. Just kind of gave me the PNL understanding of like revenue [00:19:40] and profit margins. Right? And those are the basic skillsets you might have picked up over the years from something in your life [00:19:45] without realising. Um, but not everyone’s got that in them. So, you know, if you haven’t got that in [00:19:50] it, definitely. It’s been trained on because we spend 99.9% of our time on CPD [00:19:55] and training on dentistry. Great. No skill set on sales. No skill [00:20:00] sets on leadership. No skill sets on PNL finance. Nothing. And you just think you’re running [00:20:05] a business which is half the battle. And the other half is clinical. So if you’ve done a clinical great, why [00:20:10] not put any time and effort into it? It’s like saying, I’m going to do only, you know, I’m going to work out my legs only not my arms [00:20:15] or vice versa. You’ve got to do both because a hot body, right.

Prav Solanki: Leg day, mate.

Dev Patel: Yeah. Never skip [00:20:20] leg day. Exactly. So it’s really key. And I think it’s, um. It’s a real big shame, because [00:20:25] it’s not actually any good courses out there that exist that does this kind of level of training and Dental specific [00:20:30] practice management just for dentists at a good level. A lot of them are just basic stuff [00:20:35] like this is what profit is. This is what you know. But I actually like levers of growth because no one’s actually done [00:20:40] this before. There’s very few. I don’t think there’s any group, actually. It’s really been out there on a scalable [00:20:45] model that’s actually gone there and said, I’m doubling the turnover every three years for my practices. Doesn’t exist in the [00:20:50] UK or the whole of Europe even. So there’s definitely an opportunity there for people to learn this. And, [00:20:55] you know, people can share the knowledge and and go through it. But I think it’s super, super important. [00:21:00] Um, and it’s a shame because, I mean, the good thing is now and, you [00:21:05] know, whether I like them or not is another question. But the most of the work is out there. Do give [00:21:10] free valuations, and they do go through the PNL for you and literally go, this is where you’re at now. This is where valuation [00:21:15] is where EBITDA is, is we can do to grow it. And I would recommend anybody who’s thinking about exiting [00:21:20] in the next five, ten years go speak to a broker. At least they can give you some sort of a health check [00:21:25] and analysis on your business now, and where you need to move towards to get your number to get to [00:21:30] an exit in the future. And that’s a free of charge tool that is quite forward to have that in UK [00:21:35] because not everyone’s got that, you know, other countries.

Prav Solanki: But that’s, that’s not teaching a man to fish is it. I mean, [00:21:40] if you, if you look at that side of things and say, right, do the evaluation, it’s [00:21:45] going to be the same situation at the end of the year. Your accountant presents your numbers to you. You look at it, it’s [00:21:50] tumbleweed, and you just say, well, how much tax do I have to pay? Yeah. Do [00:21:55] you see what I mean? And that’s the majority of clients I speak to. Right. Is they don’t understand their [00:22:00] PNL. They never they certainly don’t look at it on a monthly basis. And [00:22:05] those who do look at it semi-regularly, don’t use the data [00:22:10] from it to drive their next business decisions, if that makes sense. Um, [00:22:15] so yeah, you could, you could go and get a valuation from, from any of these brokers. [00:22:20] Right. And they’ll go through your PNL with you. But what are the key numbers that [00:22:25] a practice owner, you just said you could add 30, 40% to your business just by [00:22:30] regularly looking at and assessing your PNL right, whether that’s 3,040% [00:22:35] revenue, whether it’s a cost saving, whether it’s a valuation piece, right, that, you know, if you [00:22:40] if you say to yourself, right, I want to sell my business in three years time, just by regularly [00:22:45] looking at your PNL, you can increase the valuation of your business in 3 or 4 years time. Is that what you [00:22:50] believe? Yeah.

Dev Patel: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can spend a lot of time going through the whole thing, but just the five points [00:22:55] I would say is, um, if you’re going to get monthly panels, make sure [00:23:00] that drill down into really detailed line items, because there’s no point having 1 or 4 numbers [00:23:05] for your, um, cost of sales. Right? And it’s all bulked into one number. So it just says like, you know, I [00:23:10] don’t know, say it’s like, you know, associate cost or just cost for, for team. And that could be everyone’s cost [00:23:15] associates, staff, everyone. You don’t really know what the breakdown is. So really break down every single line [00:23:20] as much detail as possible. There are companies out there like spot on that do that for you. So you know they can [00:23:25] definitely get that. If you haven’t got an accountant, they can do it for you. Um, or you can just get it on zero, you know, or loads [00:23:30] of other kind of on the their online um, finance softwares and just, you know, do a course [00:23:35] about understanding what each line means and what what happens if one, if you, if you do that to one of them, what [00:23:40] happens to the other one. Right. Everything’s got a cause and effect on most of those line items. [00:23:45] So the basics are revenue number one. Top line right. How do you track revenue [00:23:50] now most patches just as you know just go oh we look in the month how much we’ve we kind of you know take [00:23:55] in terms of cash and then we work out how much pay a dentist and we say good month a bad month.

Dev Patel: That’s what I do. I have [00:24:00] no idea whether or not that’s good or bad or what the target is for you. So set yourself a budget [00:24:05] for the year. The budget is a target that you want to set yourself for the year over the 1st of April, or for the, which [00:24:10] is great tonight and or 1st of January, depending on what your financial year is. Now, obviously [00:24:15] in the UK most people are 1st of April, so just stick to that one. If you’re working with NHS and [00:24:20] just set yourself a target of what I want to achieve this year. So last year you made a million revenue total, this [00:24:25] year 1.2 million, right? How do you increase the revenue? There’s 2 or [00:24:30] things or three things. One is by obviously putting prices up. So weirdly enough, most [00:24:35] patterns don’t pay any prices up for ten, 20, 30 years. It’s craziness. And there’s no logic [00:24:40] behind it. They just go, oh, well, you know we want to keep the same prices working for us. Inflation [00:24:45] does exist, guys. Like it’s like it’s a myth, right? It’s not like it’s a, you know, some [00:24:50] some hidden little gem that no one knows about. It’s out there. It’s on the news every single day. If you know what inflation [00:24:55] is, make sure your prices are above inflation every year without fail.

Prav Solanki: How often should you be [00:25:00] reviewing your prices?

Dev Patel: At least minimum annually. But if you want to be a bit more [00:25:05] on it, like six monthly. Um, but if you’re doing it annually for, for inflation forecasts, whatever you [00:25:10] get from the banking and forecast application for the next 12 months, then normally thereabouts, you know, [00:25:15] um, obviously we’ve had quite big inflation for the last three years. Um, you know, five, six, 7%. [00:25:20] So, you know, we’ve been put prices up quite a bit, but you have to because your cost of goods are going up. [00:25:25] If you don’t do this. I mean, I’ve, I’ve literally been to practice last week. That week. I said my crown is still [00:25:30] £400 for the last 20 years. And I said, you do realise your margins are getting squeezed every single year by a [00:25:35] few percent for the last 20 years is probably a 50% decrease now in your margins on that same [00:25:40] product, like for like. You know nothing about it. Oh, but patients are happy and they just pay for it. It’s [00:25:45] like literally saying that I’m going to give you exactly the same, you know, glass of water today and in 20 [00:25:50] years time, the same cost by making half the profit on that for no reason. Right. [00:25:55] So, you know, you’ve got to put your prices up. And that’s a very common thing with any annually. [00:26:00] Yeah. Annually.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dev Patel: For private revenue obviously not. Nhs and NHS will just do what they want to do [00:26:05] and it’s fixed. The second thing is volume. So volume is the second kind of big factor which [00:26:10] is basically doing more treatments. So more volume of offsetting, you know any procedure. [00:26:15] And that can be either adding more capacity, adding more hours or just utilising hours that are empty right now. [00:26:20] Once again, no practices I go see with an empty surgery in terms of all the hours that are not being utilised [00:26:25] in the week, is that one empty surgery? And I’m just thinking like you’re not exercising correctly. Make [00:26:30] sure you have all the hours booked out and utilised for. So that way you’re actually maximising your current premises [00:26:35] that you’re paying all the fixed costs for anyway. So that’s your volume. Um, and [00:26:40] then after you got your kind of top line and I’ll break that down to weekly targets, it’s much easier [00:26:45] for the team, the managers, the whole, you know, you know, your whole team, dentists to know exactly what targets [00:26:50] each week, have a huddle in the mornings, go through what targets are in the week and how everyone’s performing. At least [00:26:55] that way you’re communicating and you’re aiming towards something and give bonuses to the team for hitting targets. [00:27:00] You know, I know this is like really fun, but they just go every month. Everyone. If we hit target for the group, everyone [00:27:05] gets £100.

Dev Patel: You know, it’s just a nice way to make sure everyone feels like they’re on the same path towards the same [00:27:10] journey to kind of aim for a target. The next thing after revenue obviously, [00:27:15] is a cost. The biggest cost to any business in dentistry is a dentist costs your associate costs. So [00:27:20] review that if you’ve got associates in your practice who are doing like a 10th of [00:27:25] the price versus someone else in the same practice and I’m 50% or the same on [00:27:30] the same percentage. Why is that possible? Actually, if you look at the maths of that, the hourly [00:27:35] rate is the one that is doing £50 an hour and someone doing £500 an hour means that you’re making a loss [00:27:40] for £150 an hour, because your costs are higher than actually what they’re bringing in. It’s a sliding scale. 40, [00:27:45] 45, 50% silence scale or whatever you think you know, you know, in that in that area. [00:27:50] So that way everyone’s incentivised to grow that hourly rate rather than it being, you know, the [00:27:55] same. And no one has any kind of targets for it. And there’s nothing wrong with doing that. All you’re doing is you’re rewarding [00:28:00] people doing well. And the ones who aren’t doing that well, you know, have to keep growing and push themselves. And [00:28:05] then just make sure that you take care of your team.

Dev Patel: A lot of dentist costs go up and up and [00:28:10] up because they’re recruiting at higher and higher, you know, rates or other ones because they’re getting higher churn. [00:28:15] So not taking care of the team properly. So regular one to ones, regular mentoring, regular sessions of training [00:28:20] and and development really helps those dentists feel like they’re getting a bit more for their, you know, value Keep [00:28:25] it busy for them. How to have open discussions with them regularly about what things are going right and what’s [00:28:30] going wrong. But yeah, so the associated costs are really key and the staff costs. So looking at like how much [00:28:35] staff do you have versus FTE staffing versus number of associates in the practice. They’ll have [00:28:40] too many staff to have little staff. How are you utilising the time when they’re not busy because there’s taking holidays [00:28:45] or whatever else? Um, do I have time in lieu? All these kind of things to maximise, you know, your actual costs that you’re [00:28:50] paying out for your teams. And you should be doing regular one to ones with all those members [00:28:55] of teams. So that way you can go through like, you know, their kind of progression for the year, their pay rises and [00:29:00] link it to actual progression. A lot of people I hear about going, oh yeah, we just got told to give another pay rise because [00:29:05] she doesn’t leave soon.

Dev Patel: I’m worried about losing my nurse. You might lose your nurse, but have you even [00:29:10] had a discussion for the first place about why they won’t leave? How are they getting progression? Like, is it the pay? [00:29:15] What’s the issue of causing them to leave in the first place? Right? Um, if you have a good culture, people don’t [00:29:20] generally want to leave. Um, obviously life will happen, people will move house and whatever else. But [00:29:25] apart from that, you should you should be able to hopefully keep your team happy and then you know all the other [00:29:30] fixed costs like your rates and I mean rent rates. Rebate is a huge one that no one does. Even everyone’s [00:29:35] got contracts can get a rebate on their rates. So anyone listen to this right now like [00:29:40] look into it and get some money back for your rates. Right. Like it’s like you can definitely do straight away and it’s easy [00:29:45] to get money back. Um, you know, other things like looking at discounts for your materials and labs [00:29:50] and making sure everyone’s kind of, you know, maximising the procurement discounts there. Now, it’s hard to do it when you’re a small [00:29:55] practice, but if you’ve got a mini group, definitely be looking at like, you know how you can streamline things there. We’re not [00:30:00] trying to say you have to use a certain lab or have to do certain materials, but even going to suppliers and having discussion [00:30:05] with them will definitely give you some more savings than you would have by not having a discussion in the first place.

Dev Patel: And [00:30:10] then, you know, there are obviously other smaller things on there, but nothing major. I mean, you always find that there’s a lot of wastage [00:30:15] sometimes on cost lines like general and other things, because the team goes on Amazon and goes crazy and [00:30:20] orders those things and no one’s looking there. So, you know, keep an eye on that now. Most practice owners who [00:30:25] own their own business don’t let people have their own card, so they only spend money on their own card themselves, not anyone to use [00:30:30] it. So it’s probably not as much of an issue. But keep an eye on all the small things because, you know, it’s [00:30:35] not easy to make EBITDA if you’re wasting 20 or 30 grand a year on irrelevant things that don’t need to be, then a practice [00:30:40] that I want to grow, the business that don’t spend it. But yeah. And then I think the other thing is just investing [00:30:45] in CapEx on technology, because technology can really drive efficiencies, increase sales, [00:30:50] increase conversions, and increase quality of care and help patients and dentists [00:30:55] feel they’re getting better service. So, um, yeah, you know, that money’s worth it [00:31:00] because CapEx does not affect your EBITDA. Remember that guys?

Prav Solanki: Okay. So me and you both know [00:31:05] what CapEx is, right? But I guarantee you there are many people listening to this saying what on earth are they talking about? [00:31:10] Right. So I just want you to just very quickly give me a summary of that is and what [00:31:15] do you mean by investing in technologies? Are we talking about EOS scanners and things [00:31:20] like that? Um, things that will improve sort of digital workflows and that sort [00:31:25] of thing. And let’s go back to CapEx first.

Dev Patel: So CapEx is capital expenditure. So if [00:31:30] I’m buying anything that’s going to last more than a year or like, you know, a few months, like like a like just keep it [00:31:35] simple composite. It’s not CapEx. Use it. You put it in the bin. It’s finished. Right. Like that. That’s [00:31:40] a consumable that’s consumed regularly. Uh, CapEx is anything like a dental [00:31:45] chair or a scanner anything. It’s like buying a car. It’s going to last a long period [00:31:50] of time that over time will depreciate in value because it will get wear and tear. So [00:31:55] anything over normally a few hundred pounds that’s an equipment or machinery [00:32:00] is technically CapEx. So even, you know, uh, opex okay. That’s CapEx. [00:32:05] Right? And these are items where when you calculate EBITDA, which is your [00:32:10] earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation, that is what they [00:32:15] use for valuations when they buy a business. So when you go to sell your business, they’ll say EBITDA times by multiple [00:32:20] is what you can evaluate. If I spend £100,000 a year on CapEx, that will not impact [00:32:25] my EBITDA anyway. That’s a balance sheet item. Okay. So it’s really important to remember [00:32:30] that people go, oh, you know, I spend 50 grand or 20 grand on this machine. It’s going to impact my evaluation. [00:32:35] And that’s how it works. If anything, you’re going to increase evaluation because someone will pay for those machinery when they [00:32:40] buy the packs. Anyway. You add it on to the purchase when you sell it. So investing in technology [00:32:45] now is not going to impact you negatively anyway, as long as you use it [00:32:50] and it’s utilised to its maximum capacity by everybody, not just sits in the corner like [00:32:55] I see some sewing machines in the corner, practices collecting dust because no one’s using them anymore, right? [00:33:00] That’s not good investment, but are you going to buy digital x rays [00:33:05] at OPG or Cbct? And I don’t know, a scanner like an Itero.

Dev Patel: You know, [00:33:10] these are things that you should very quickly generate you way more EBITDA [00:33:15] times by multiple of seven or 8 or 6 or whatever you’re going to get when you sell way [00:33:20] more value than you would do by not having it. So just as an example, if I buy an item now, [00:33:25] I do ten cases of my idea. Because of the before and after scan, I can show patients what it looks like. [00:33:30] Those ten cases will give me £40,000 of revenue. That will then give me, just say, roughly [00:33:35] £10,000 of profit or EBITDA. That £10,000 [00:33:40] of EBITDA times by seven is 70 £70,000 valuation extra. And I’m [00:33:45] paying 20 grand for the machine. Now is that a good investment for ten cases? It’s [00:33:50] a no brainer, right? So it’s just about the basics of like, you know, what you’re investing in and how it’s going [00:33:55] to give you returns or it’s going to be better for day to day workflow. Like if I’m scanning not taking impressions anymore, [00:34:00] that makes my patients patients doing it better means that I’m spending spending more time doing dentistry [00:34:05] and not wasting time doing, you know, remake impressions again, twice because someone did it correctly [00:34:10] the first time and and etc., etc.. It’s a lot more efficient for the patient and for the dentist [00:34:15] to be doing that and saving material costs. So there’s loads of benefits out there. It’s just about what [00:34:20] works for your patient base and your skill sets and what you want to be doing. But don’t be afraid to invest in your [00:34:25] business. The best investment you can do anything in life is yourself or your business. Yeah. [00:34:30]

Prav Solanki: Absolutely.

Dev Patel: A lot of people don’t do that. And that’s where I find a huge opportunity [00:34:35] because I’m saying, well, great, I’ll do it for you and then I’ll double it for years and happy days, right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:34:40]

Prav Solanki: Yeah. And I think on the investment in yourself side of things you were alluding to [00:34:45] earlier, like, you know, a dentist will go on 25 composite courses and they’ll ten, 15 different [00:34:50] ways in which to put this white paste on someone’s tooth to make it look shiny or special. [00:34:55] Right. Um, and then they’ll go and learn how to do this soft tissue grafting or whatever. [00:35:00] Right. All these different techniques, collusion, this, that and the other and very rarely invest [00:35:05] in, let’s say, financial or, you know, the sort of stuff that I talk about a lot is [00:35:10] the sales process, right? And certainly for me, what I’ve [00:35:15] seen certain delegates who’ve been on my sales mastery course, or we’ve done some small [00:35:20] group training for certain certain, um, clinicians as well as TCL’s, is [00:35:25] just that uplift in a confidence [00:35:30] that actually being confident about talking about the [00:35:35] value of what they’re delivering is exceptional value, rather than being embarrassed about it. Um, [00:35:40] and then B just being able to articulate yourself [00:35:45] in using really, really simple language. Um, and it blows [00:35:50] my mind at how many clinicians just don’t have that and either [00:35:55] overcomplicate it, skirt around the money, suffer from this fiscal drag where [00:36:00] it says £5,000 in their head, in for four grand, comes out of their mouth. God knows why. This whole [00:36:05] whole thing. What do you see in in your group with. I’m sure you’ve got a wide range [00:36:10] of clinicians right from those who are what I would sort of call sales [00:36:15] machines are really natural and fluent in the art of sales. [00:36:20] To those who are sort of a little bit more sort of stifled in that way. So [00:36:25] what was the general view from your perspective, and what impact [00:36:30] do you think somebody’s nailing that will have on the overall profitability of [00:36:35] the practice?

Dev Patel: I mean, I, I was very fortunate. I did, um, [00:36:40] you know, a couple of these kind of sales, ethical sales kind of courses very early on, like literally my VCE [00:36:45] year. Yeah. Um, and it was and I still say this today, it’s the best course [00:36:50] I’ve ever done in my entire life. And it’s probably I would actually say it’s contributed [00:36:55] to 70% of my success in my life, because those two, that one two day course, I [00:37:00] mean, that’s how crazy it is. And I think every dentist comes out of university [00:37:05] almost exactly the same. We all taught for five years how to dentistry. We’ve got we’re all, I don’t know, left or right [00:37:10] brained whether to like, you know, very academic and very kind of like process driven. And [00:37:15] that’s how it all came out of university. We’re like exactly the same after that is whether or not you have [00:37:20] it, as you mentioned, like naturally within you to have it. Of cells. Um, and a bit of, you know, good chat with [00:37:25] patients and that kind of rapport building or, um, you need to be taught it, [00:37:30] but everyone can be taught it. And even the ones that we’ve got in our group, you know, we’ve got a few hundred dentists, [00:37:35] you know, around, you know, in mixed practices that aren’t all come out exactly the same from university. All [00:37:40] of them get trained on cells, and some of them do really well and maybe do £400 [00:37:45] an hour. Some of them do okay and do £200 an hour, but it’s still way better than average £100 an hour in the rest [00:37:50] of the country. Right. So everyone can benefit from sales training, even knowing about it and understanding, [00:37:55] you know, how to describe things, explain things, break it down.

Dev Patel: Find out what the concerns are [00:38:00] and overcome them. But whether or not I do it is another question. And that just comes down to, once again, [00:38:05] discipline. It’s like doing the same thing over and over and over correctly every single time. Now, I [00:38:10] could not emphasise how important that is. That is like the most, I mean, the most easy [00:38:15] way to grow your business straight away tomorrow. Just doing that course. Right. But at the same [00:38:20] time, you kind of need to have that that knowledge on [00:38:25] the financials as well, because I do see some great guys who can sell anything as we you know, we know a guy [00:38:30] can sell anything really great. Revenue is great, but their cost spending is also very high and they’re just not controlling [00:38:35] the costs. And therefore the profitability is very low. So you do need to control kind of at the top and [00:38:40] the bottom. And I think it’s harder normally to um it’s much harder normally to grow the top line [00:38:45] because cost actually is easy to control. So if you if you can control the costs and the top line, [00:38:50] you’re winning. And that’s what we’d find. Actually we do have some partners who are great. You know coming in [00:38:55] new partners coming in can can do really well in terms of the top line and growing the business and growing the dentist. [00:39:00] And that’s great. But I love spending money on everything else. And if I kind of conventional scanners or ten different [00:39:05] printers, ten different, um, you know, CapEx. Yeah, CapEx stuff, which [00:39:10] is one thing that’s debt in the business, right? But then they also spend loads of materials, money [00:39:15] on labs because they think, oh, if I get a £500 crown from a laboratory in Italy, that’s going [00:39:20] to get, you know, more, I’m going to get, you know, an extra five likes on Instagram.

Dev Patel: But will that [00:39:25] make any money for them differently versus a £200 crown from a very good laboratory in London? No. So it’s going to [00:39:30] be logical about your time. And it’s all about hourly rates right. Like you can do whatever you want as long as it’s [00:39:35] high. That’s the key thing. Um, if you’re spending ten hours doing a crown from a crown in Italy and you’re trying [00:39:40] to place it and you’re only charging £500 for it, probably not making much money, right? Um, so, yeah, [00:39:45] look, I think, uh, you know, that’s really, really key for sales, but I think in general, look, [00:39:50] none of us have been trained, um, on anything to run a business. My only training I [00:39:55] had on, well, finance was I taught myself. But, like, you know, most of my partners had no, no idea what PNL [00:40:00] was. And we went through them. And that’s part of our training we do with our partners. Um, but like [00:40:05] HR, for example, don’t think only about HR was watching TV saying, you know, American TV shows saying you’re fired. [00:40:10] And I thought That’s normal. You know, that’s kind of normal in the UK. Completely [00:40:15] different in real world, man. I mean, some of the stories that that, that, that, that we’ve experienced over the years [00:40:20] now, it’s like, why have we got all this stuff at university? It’s craziness.

Prav Solanki: And [00:40:25] it’s certainly with HR. Things are changing all the time, right? I mean, you [00:40:30] know, I was, you know, running my small business, the thresh, before we were [00:40:35] acquired by Virgilio. And now, um, they’ve got a whole HR department and that’s opened [00:40:40] a whole new world to me. Right. I guess I’m learning about where I probably might have gone wrong a little bit [00:40:45] when it came to HR. And yeah, probably could have could have got away with certain things [00:40:50] as a, as a small business. Um, but I think it’s important to, um, [00:40:55] to have that knowledge because we’ve got certain people who manage the whole HR in the team, [00:41:00] and it just gives you a little bit more insight into people and what not. And, um, [00:41:05] you know, what their challenges are and how to approach that Appropriately. Yeah. [00:41:10] Yeah. Um, I guess a lot of what we’ve been talking about today [00:41:15] revolves around leading people and leadership, and I think that’s probably one of the most important [00:41:20] aspects or elements of practice growth.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Prav Solanki: I speak [00:41:25] to a lot of practice owners who won’t have that uncomfortable conversation with their associates [00:41:30] or their team members. I speak to a lot of practice owners who won’t even share revenue data [00:41:35] with their team because they feel this is this is the this [00:41:40] is the party line and it regularly comes out that do you think I should be sharing our [00:41:45] revenue? Because then everyone will know how much we’re making. And I’d be like, they just need to go on the [00:41:50] Dental software, mate. It’s all there. Yeah, they see they see the money coming [00:41:55] in and out of the business, right? Just stick it in, stick it on the whiteboard, set a target. [00:42:00] It’s fine. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, and certain [00:42:05] individuals will will drive their, Over there, go to work car [00:42:10] so that their staff don’t see their car. Right. And then there’s [00:42:15] total opposites who just drive sports cars, right. Which we’ve seen it all. Um, and, [00:42:20] and I think this sort of lack of transparency or willingness to [00:42:25] share transparency in, first of all, your revenue, profitability [00:42:30] numbers with the team. I truly believe [00:42:35] that that’s a real mindset piece that holds back growth. And I don’t know if you’ve [00:42:40] seen that. Yeah. Yeah. And what your view, what your view on that is and how that impacts from [00:42:45] a from a leadership perspective as well.

Dev Patel: I think it’s um, that’s one [00:42:50] aspect of many different things that I see that there’s, there’s two different types of leaders I [00:42:55] see currently. Right. There’s this. And I’m not saying it’s always old school, but generally this old school kind [00:43:00] of leadership style of I want to look poor, trying to make sure [00:43:05] everyone feels that I’m not making them that money and just, you know, take the cash in the bank, but no one knows about [00:43:10] it and keep it all secret. Right. And it’s like, okay, you’re doing that and [00:43:15] that works for you. Fine. But that same person will be penny pinching on [00:43:20] loads of small things. And I’m seeing it from like, you know, let’s try to recharge. I [00:43:25] don’t know, the bin bags to our associates, just anything that can recharge back. They’ll do that. [00:43:30] Let’s try to, um, you know, cut costs by, you know, um, not giving pay rises and [00:43:35] just getting high churn rate because that would say my costs. How do I, you know, protect my business [00:43:40] by making sure no one grows too much. So I don’t want associates doing too well because otherwise they do too well. Then they might take my [00:43:45] patients away from me and I’ll lose my business. And they’re always being on the defensive rather than on [00:43:50] the like, you know, the sharing and the kind of like, you know, proactive approach of running a business. And [00:43:55] I think that’s holding them back massively. And actually, the other kind [00:44:00] of great example of that is, you know, one thing is sharing, you know, your data and sharing [00:44:05] your costs and sharing like how business runs with the whole team and make sure everyone’s on the same targets.

Dev Patel: Because if [00:44:10] you’re working towards the same target, you’re finding what’s more productive. They’ve got better culture and they’re more transparent, [00:44:15] right? Um, but another good example of what I, um, I find astonishing [00:44:20] is where, you know, you might have a principal who is [00:44:25] an older inspector. I’m not saying there’s an age for that, but there’s, you know, on the old end of the spectrum, [00:44:30] the mindset of I’m like, let me tie in these associates by putting in clauses in their contracts [00:44:35] that say they have to hit a certain target for udas. They leave, they’re going to pay me some recruitment fees. If [00:44:40] they leave that, I’m going to put them in chains basically. Right. And and it’s like this mindset of [00:44:45] as soon as you work for me, I own you. I literally own you. That’s basically how they think. And [00:44:50] they won’t say it out loud, but that’s how they think, right? In my world, I’m just like, look, [00:44:55] if you come work for us, you’re self-employed. You can do whatever you want. You enjoy it, you [00:45:00] work hard, you do well. Great. You save us long term. If you don’t like it, you leave. [00:45:05] There’s no targets. There’s no time, nothing. We’re not going to charge you for courses. We’re not going to charge you for any kind of callback. [00:45:10] You leave because it’s a free world. And I always do well in life. So if I if I’ve known you [00:45:15] for 3 or 4 years and you’ve, you know, you develop your skills really well when you’re in practice, you want to go do everything in life. [00:45:20] Do it.

[TRANSITION]: Well done.

Dev Patel: Absolutely fine. Because in the day, if you’re a good person, that will make a [00:45:25] huge difference in karma and that will always come back. And I’ve got plenty left. I come back after and said, shit, we had a bad [00:45:30] time with you. We should have stayed with you after, right? And that will come out into the world. But if you’re one of those owners [00:45:35] out there, small groups or owners who just want to keep this, the same mentality of I [00:45:40] own my business. I put all my blood, sweat and tears into it and I will make sure that everyone who works there works [00:45:45] for me like a, you know, like basically like an employee. You’re never going to succeed or grow the business any [00:45:50] more than what it is now. You might do well on your own and you do well on your own. You’ll never go far. [00:45:55] And what we’re saying is, you know, go, go, go quick on your own or go far together or whatever it is. Right? [00:46:00] That’s how it works. And honestly, it’s, um, it’s quite sad because I do get associates [00:46:05] who’ve come to us saying, well, can work for you. I can’t leave because I’ve got a £10,000 [00:46:10] recruitment fee to get out of this. This one practice I work for. It’s like, how does someone even threaten [00:46:15] them that you can’t legally do that anyway? Because I’m employed and spends £10,000 of equipment fees. [00:46:20] He’s like.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dev Patel: It’s there’s this big difference in leadership styles, [00:46:25] right? And what I’m trying to get at is everyone needs to move towards the, the new generation [00:46:30] of leadership styles because we also have to change ourselves. Right. Like ten years [00:46:35] ago when I first bought my first practice, I have to worry about dentists not having wanted to work full time [00:46:40] or not wanting to do udas. And, you know, the work ethic, it was it was it was [00:46:45] bad. It wasn’t anywhere near as bad as now anyway. Now you don’t want to go to university. They want to be earning £100,000 [00:46:50] a year on two days a week, doing a couple of days and and doing bonding of veneers [00:46:55] from day one without any experience. And I’m like, your expectation levels are here and you’re [00:47:00] not even there yet. Right. So it’s, um. It’s a tough world, but I. I always say that [00:47:05] we work for everyone who works for us. So if I’ve got a dentist or a member of a team, like a nurse or hygienist, [00:47:10] we all work for them and we have to work around them what they want. Let’s work around [00:47:15] that to make them happy, right?

Prav Solanki: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. No, that all makes sense. And this [00:47:20] just brings me nicely to, um, to the conversation [00:47:25] we had probably about a month or two ago now. And, [00:47:30] um, you were talking to me about obviously recently what had happened [00:47:35] at the fresh and, um, how I’m personally stepping back [00:47:40] from coaching. I only coach two clients at the moment, 1 to 1, and I literally [00:47:45] can’t afford to do coaching anymore. Just don’t have the time. The [00:47:50] headspace, um, and I’ve got to split that time. You know, I’ve got I’ve got to choose whether [00:47:55] do I coach a client or do I spend it with my wife and kids that that is the that is the toss up [00:48:00] right now. Right. So I’ve got two clients that I’m coaching and we’ll probably not do 1 to 1 coaching again. [00:48:05] Yeah, yeah. For the foreseeable. Um, and then you said the same thing to me, which [00:48:10] was, um, you get people or dentists asking you all the time, and can you do some coaching [00:48:15] and look, you’re running 50. How many practice is now 57, 57 [00:48:20] practices. Right. Um, you’ve you’ve definitely got [00:48:25] no time for 1 to 1 coaching, right. And um, so we got, we got chatting about this and, um, [00:48:30] you know, should we put a course together. Um, which is what we’ve done. Um, [00:48:35] start scale, exit UK. Um, and the idea behind [00:48:40] that was if me and you can come together and look, I could have shared some information [00:48:45] on this podcast, but you’ve all heard that on several podcasts before about marketing, patient [00:48:50] journey, sales and all the rest of it.

Prav Solanki: Right. But I really wanted you to hear almost like a [00:48:55] fly in the wall conversation of what I normally have with dev when I’ve got a client [00:49:00] who’s got a question that I can’t answer. Or perhaps, you know, there’s an acquisition question [00:49:05] that somebody’s asking me for. I just pick up the phone and speak to dev, and he cuts through the [00:49:10] noise. And so we’ve created a almost like a 12 month program, and [00:49:15] we’ll put the link in the show notes. And if that’s of interest to any practice, [00:49:20] owners want to be practice owners and those who are getting towards the end of [00:49:25] their journey and they’re looking at exiting and how to maximise the value. And [00:49:30] I think we’ve put together something that’s pretty special that doesn’t doesn’t exist out there, [00:49:35] but it’s got to be right for you, dev. Just, just your thoughts on, on, on the program [00:49:40] that we have put together essentially covers, you know, strategic planning, [00:49:45] financial mastery, communication, leadership, marketing, [00:49:50] compliance, patient care, growth and scaling and exit [00:49:55] as well. You know, there’s tons of courses out there that The different facets of this [00:50:00] and, um, you know, I feel quite privileged that you’ve sort of said, look, let’s, let’s [00:50:05] do this. I’m really looking forward to delivering the first cohort. But your sort of view [00:50:10] on this, based on the fact that, um, you know, you get a lot of a lot of clinicians, [00:50:15] um, practice owners come to you and say, hey, I’d like some advice and [00:50:20] help, and I’m assuming you’re in a similar situation, right? You’re just not able to give the time. Yeah. [00:50:25]

Dev Patel: No, no, I think, um, I think it’s almost a bit of a disservice to the [00:50:30] industry that only our partners get that level of coaching. I mean, literally all of [00:50:35] our partners come from normal associates growing into practice. Owners have got two, three, four practices [00:50:40] of us now, and they’ve learned how to grow a business to a million, 2 million revenue within 2 or 3 years. I [00:50:45] just want to share as many people as possible, because I feel like if we can do that, we’ll not only help more people [00:50:50] within the industry get learn how to run a business better, but to grow businesses but also [00:50:55] get better value for themselves. I mean, there’s no course that exists that will give you more value than this [00:51:00] one. I personally believe because if you’re looking to become an owner or currently an owner of one or more of [00:51:05] them, one practice and you can grow your business more by learning however many tips and [00:51:10] tricks from us over the 12 month period, and with some coaching them as well. I genuinely feel you’ll get 20, 30, [00:51:15] 40% more value from that business whenever you want to exit it or every year. And that is, [00:51:20] you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands or millions of, you know, value, right? So I [00:51:25] think it’s a no brainer. I think it’s a shame that we’re not the only country, by the way, but all countries I go to around the world [00:51:30] haven’t got this kind of course that exists.

Dev Patel: I’ve got loads of dentists in Morocco looking like kind of like, you know, this is a [00:51:35] great course. We should actually, you know, think about doing something similar for the US, obviously. And it’s just like we should [00:51:40] be training on this level of training at university, every dentist, because this is as important, you [00:51:45] know, when you’re a self-employed dentist, whether you’re an associate or an owner, you still need to know how you how penile works, how your [00:51:50] accounts work end of the year, how you grow your personal hourly rates. These are all things you should know about. But [00:51:55] no one’s being taught this. And I think if we can spread that ten, 20, 30, 40 people, 50 [00:52:00] people a year, and we do that over the next ten, 20 years or however long you do it for, you know, I think we can make a huge [00:52:05] difference on, on just kind of building a really good sense for entrepreneurship around, you know, dentistry [00:52:10] and hopefully sharing some of the pitfalls that we’ve been through and some of the blueprints that we know work. Um, [00:52:15] but yeah, I think it’s hugely important. And, you know, anyone out there is interested just, you know, message Prav. And I’m [00:52:20] sure we can get some some spaces for you.

Prav Solanki: Yeah.

Dev Patel: We’ll put we’ll.

Prav Solanki: Put the website [00:52:25] details in the show notes. And then if you guys have got any questions feel free to message me directly [00:52:30] on Instagram. I know dev’s not available on Instagram deliberately, I’m guessing, [00:52:35] um, for personal reasons, to stop him doomscrolling and all the rest of it. Um, [00:52:40] so, um, yeah, if you I think if you want to get hold of them, it’s got to be via LinkedIn. Um. [00:52:45]

Dev Patel: Oh, and that’s, uh, with a picture. That’s fine. Whatever’s easier.

Prav Solanki: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Snail [00:52:50] mail. He was talking about old school dentists earlier, weren’t you? Yeah, yeah. Um. So, um. Yeah, I’m [00:52:55] feel free to reach out and um, inquire and we’ve got, [00:53:00] we’ve got a handful of spaces left for the next cohort. So, um, if you’re interested, [00:53:05] do get in touch. It’s a 12 month program. I would be delighted to have you on board.

[VOICE]: This [00:53:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where [00:53:15] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:53:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:53:25] Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have [00:53:30] listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking [00:53:35] through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got [00:53:40] some value out of it.

Prav Solanki: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [00:53:45] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you [00:53:50] so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: People often ask me about the best way to increase their whitening in their practice. I’ve [00:00:05] got all the numbers in front of me. I can see sometimes in the same practice, one dentist doing ten times as much whitening [00:00:10] as the one next door. The dentists who do the most whitening are the ones who talk about whitening the most. [00:00:15] That seems kind of obvious, but there’s a group of patients who I would call the lowest hanging [00:00:20] fruit. Patients who come in every six months needing nothing at all. I would definitely ask those patients, [00:00:25] you need nothing because you’re brilliant. Have you ever thought about whitening your teeth? We’re asking everyone Enlighten online training. [00:00:30] Join us for an hour of clinical and marketing tips. Swap unpredictability [00:00:35] with delighted patients and higher margins. Enlighten online training.com. [00:00:40] Let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders, the [00:00:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:55] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:00] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to [00:01:05] welcome Keval Patel onto the podcast of Cana [00:01:10] Health Group, which is a group of five big practices [00:01:15] in and around Milton Keynes, and the Cana Academy, which is an education [00:01:20] spin off from that group. Massive pleasure to have you, my buddy.

Kaival Patel: Thank you for having me. [00:01:25] Payman. Yeah. Really an honour to be here.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Thanks for coming all the way.

Kaival Patel: No, no, [00:01:30] it’s not far. Milton Keynes to to London. Very easy. 30 minutes. We’re here. A little [00:01:35] bit of a delay on the on the trains, but yeah. No, no issues whatsoever.

Payman Langroudi: This [00:01:40] probably go into the backstory, all that. But sometimes I’ve got a burning question. And my burning question [00:01:45] for you is around the vibe in the practices. Yeah. Because I’ve [00:01:50] visited and I know how hard it is to keep a culture going even [00:01:55] in one building like the one you’re in right now. Have you managed to keep [00:02:00] that sort of family vibe going across five big practices [00:02:05] with how many employees now?

Kaival Patel: About 130. Yeah. [00:02:10] What about 130?

Payman Langroudi: Was it on purpose or by mistake? Because you certainly have that. I don’t see that with many corporates [00:02:15] or many corporates.

Kaival Patel: The vibe. I don’t know if you remember actually Payman we [00:02:20] met in Alicante. We were grabbing a coffee in between.

Payman Langroudi: How could I forget?

Kaival Patel: And, [00:02:25] um, in between, I came up to you and I don’t think we’d spoken to many times [00:02:30] before that. And I said to you, you probably thought I was trying to blow smoke [00:02:35] up your ass. But I said to you, Payman a day you came to my practice actually changed [00:02:40] our life. What? Yeah. And I’m serious. I’m serious.

Payman Langroudi: So I really thought you were joking. [00:02:45]

Kaival Patel: No, no no, no. So, uh. And again, this was many years ago. You came and [00:02:50] we’d recently taken over a big practice, our first practice. And I was [00:02:55] Uber enthusiastic. I wanted to introduce enlighten and loads of different things there. And [00:03:00] you came to speak to the the associates at the time and they [00:03:05] they had none of it. And I remember you were you were sitting in we had an upstairs [00:03:10] waiting room at that time sitting really regal. I had this really vivid picture in my crossed [00:03:15] legs. And you were talking to these guys and they just grilled you for an [00:03:20] hour. And I felt so embarrassed to have invited you to the practice to try and implement, [00:03:25] you know, a new system. And and yeah, people were just not on [00:03:30] board. They didn’t want to change. And these were all associates that we had [00:03:35] inherited when we’d taken either practice. Some of them were ex owners, um, and they just didn’t like change. [00:03:40] And I think a big, you know, I learned a massive lesson that day, [00:03:45] um, through the embarrassment side of it is I don’t want that culture, you know, I [00:03:50] don’t want that culture. Um, and we’ll probably go through, you know, when we took over the practice [00:03:55] later on. But, you know, it really, I hated [00:04:00] that. I hated that vibe. I hated going to work at that point. It was my own practice, and I hated it. And [00:04:05] I made a conscious decision to talk to my wife, Serena, who’s also the code director. And at [00:04:10] that time, we just had the two practices. And I said, this has got to change. And [00:04:15] that from that moment onwards, things started to change. It took a while to [00:04:20] to really get, you know, the culture change. And what did you do?

Payman Langroudi: What did you.

Kaival Patel: Do? First part [00:04:25] was, um, allowing them to leave and not having the, the, [00:04:30] the people there that weren’t on board with us. But I think also there wasn’t [00:04:35] really we didn’t have a North Star, to be honest. You know, we took over a practice and we didn’t really [00:04:40] know what we were doing. It was just the dumb thing to do. And, um, and, you know, [00:04:45] I had all these dreams and aspirations, but there wasn’t really a guiding North Star. And [00:04:50] what we changed was that North Star, which was positivity and respect, and [00:04:55] we really started to implement that and people that weren’t necessarily on board with it. Then [00:05:00] we had to move them out. Yeah. And people and then hire people that were on board [00:05:05] with it. You know, and that it doesn’t happen overnight. But actually once you start [00:05:10] getting that and you start getting that reputation, people start joining you because of that, and suddenly it’s a lot easier. It’s a bit of a [00:05:15] snowball effect. Um, but that’s what we did. We we ended up, you know, anybody who wasn’t really [00:05:20] on board with it, anybody wasn’t really on board with the things that we’re trying to. It doesn’t mean they were bad people. [00:05:25] Not at all, actually. They were brilliant dentists, brilliant people, but they weren’t aligned with what we were trying to [00:05:30] do. Yeah. And that made every day really difficult at that point. So. So yeah. Thank you man. [00:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: Okay okay. But you kind of in your let’s just spell it out in your head. Yeah. [00:05:40] You started breaking the team down into sort of essential and non-essential people. [00:05:45] People that were going to keep, you know, as you say, be on, on, on message [00:05:50] and be with you. Yeah. And the ones who weren’t. So then, as a operator, [00:05:55] did you manage those guys out? Did you try and change some of them and [00:06:00] realise they weren’t changeable?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So again, like I said, it happened over a number of years. Yeah. And [00:06:05] initially, you know, there we had when we took over Oxford House which was our first practice, [00:06:10] seven surgeries. Three. And I like I said, you know, we were, we were rabbit in [00:06:15] headlights really. And they taught us a lot actually at that point, the ex-owners, you know, we didn’t [00:06:20] know about ordering. And, you know, a lot of the compliance part of things.

Payman Langroudi: Were you working in the practice at all? [00:06:25]

Kaival Patel: I started yeah, as soon.

Payman Langroudi: As the associate. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So I was, you know, [00:06:30] again, like I said, Uber enthusiastic. I bought a cbct machine before I bought the practice. Ready for day [00:06:35] one. But again, that that sort of shows the, the disruption [00:06:40] that happened when I sort of came in. I’d been waiting for this practice for so long. Uh, due diligence [00:06:45] takes ages and so on. And I had just done a master’s in implants. I wanted my, [00:06:50] my main aim was just to to focus on implants and Invisalign and sedation. [00:06:55] Those were my sort of key things. So I bought the cbct ready to plonk in on day one. This [00:07:00] practice hadn’t really, you know, changed anything over the last 15, 20 years [00:07:05] for a long, long time and doing really, really well. And and yeah, caused [00:07:10] massive sort of disruption in and around there. Um, so yeah, I mean [00:07:15] it took a, it took a while to understand it all, to figure [00:07:20] it out, figure out how the practice works. Um, and then we moved forward into, [00:07:25] you know, a few years afterwards. And I was really scared, [00:07:30] to be honest. So I was scared to implement any changes. I was embarrassed after a few times, like yourself coming [00:07:35] here and so on, and it was really hard to implement something new. And actually at that point we [00:07:40] thought, well, this must be what practice life is like, you know, because you don’t know any different. And [00:07:45] there wasn’t really the same, you know, there wasn’t the same sort of social media and access to [00:07:50] information to everything.

Payman Langroudi: Which was.

Kaival Patel: This quickly. So we took over the practice in 2015, [00:07:55] and it was probably going into 2017, 2018. So it [00:08:00] happened, you know, over a quite a long period of time. 2017 is when we took over our second [00:08:05] practice and then. Yeah, so so then [00:08:10] I suddenly grew a pair and realised that when we wanted to implement things, you [00:08:15] know, I, I needed to be stronger with it, you know. So explain why. [00:08:20] Explain what the benefit is. And actually, you know, even little things like uniform. I was desperate [00:08:25] to change the uniform, you know, in the practice and just have nice, fresh, clean scrubs. [00:08:30] Um, and I remember when we, when we sort of first, you know, introduced it and one of the, [00:08:35] the owners was like, oh, is this what we’re going to have to wear? You know? And I was really [00:08:40] excited, you know, like this, this is the way it has to go. So eventually it was a case of [00:08:45] nope. Um, you know, this is what we stand for. And actually, I had a conversation with this person when [00:08:50] I, when I sort of reached my, my tether with her and I said, look, to be honest, [00:08:55] you’re the reason at the moment that I’m not enjoying coming to work. You make me feel uncomfortable being in my own [00:09:00] practice. Wow. You know, and and again, this person, not a bad person whatsoever. [00:09:05] It’s just how they were built. You know, and this.

Payman Langroudi: Was one of the ex owners.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:10] Um, pseudo ex owner. Probably keep it. Keep it that way. I don’t want to, you know, say [00:09:15] anything bad against anybody, but, um. But, yeah, I just said, look, I’m not comfortable [00:09:20] being in my own practice. And that person, she was, she she was really upset [00:09:25] that I said that because she genuinely didn’t mean that for that to be the case. Yeah. Um, [00:09:30] and then I think that sort of started the process of her, you know, edging out to her retirement [00:09:35] and, um, and stopping that way. But I used to just work wherever there was [00:09:40] a spare surgery, I wouldn’t have my set surgery and just have implant referrals coming [00:09:45] over to me, and that was sort of practice life at that point.

Payman Langroudi: This is a very important learning point for [00:09:50] people who want to buy practices, right? I’ve never bought a practice, so I can’t [00:09:55] talk with authority on it. But there’s the [00:10:00] two basic notions of evolution or revolution. [00:10:05] Yeah. Do you come in, smash everything down and rebrand [00:10:10] and rename and you know, the whole thing and say, this is what it’s going to [00:10:15] be like straight away? Or do you come in and make no noise? [00:10:20] Almost make sure that patients don’t realise there’s been a change in management [00:10:25] so that the staff don’t have a problem. Very simple. Keep everything the same [00:10:30] for six months one year six. Some people, you know extends for longer, right? Yeah. Learn [00:10:35] everything you can and then start to evolve the changes. And I always used to think that [00:10:40] was the right way. But Dev Beth Patel. His notion is smash [00:10:45] it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s interesting because if there’s a culture that’s [00:10:50] pervasive, it’s been there for 20 years. Sometimes smashing it down might be the [00:10:55] best move. Yeah, but it’s high risk. It’s high risk. High risk.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So we [00:11:00] adopt something in between now? Yeah. You know. So. But, you know, we’ve [00:11:05] learned little bits along every sort of practice purchase. And the first thing we actually tell, you know, any new [00:11:10] acquisition is what we’re going to do is we’re going to observe for a while because there might be loads of things that [00:11:15] you guys do that I want to implement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but at the end of three months or six months [00:11:20] or however long we feel we’re going to have a meeting again and say, right, these are the new things that we’re going [00:11:25] to change, you know, and use that word. Make them comfortable with that word. Um, [00:11:30] we might change things. We might keep things the same, but we’re going to go through it with you guys after this period of time. [00:11:35] And then actually we do observe for those few months, you know, unless there’s something drastically wrong that’s happening [00:11:40] in and around there. We let the the team get used to us and we [00:11:45] get used to the team. And because often again, a lot of the places that we’ve. Taken over are [00:11:50] principal led practices. So having somebody offsite. Um, [00:11:55] you know, who’s not there day in, day out is really a challenge to to. The system. So, so yeah. So [00:12:00] so we tell them yeah we’re probably going to. Look to change. Um, and I guess we’re fortunate now [00:12:05] because we’ve got quite. Good reputation in and around the area. People already know you know that. What [00:12:10] we’re about, you know, um, and so they probably expect some of it, but they also [00:12:15] hear the good vibes. They. Hear, hear about the positivity. They hear about the development side of things that we’re really massive into. [00:12:20] So I now found there’s a bit of excitement, you know, from, from a lot of people, um, [00:12:25] people that have maybe been there for a long, long time and really are just averse to change. It’s [00:12:30] hard.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a good question for you. You said when I grew some balls like so almost. [00:12:35] That’s almost like an evolution of you, your management style. Yeah. And [00:12:40] by the way, you know what got you too? Got you. There is not going [00:12:45] to get you to the next stage, let’s say. Let’s say you say, hey, listen, I want to go for the [00:12:50] 50 practices. It’s a whole different set of skills. You’ll need to get to 50 than to five. [00:12:55] So there is an evolution of management style as you learn yourself as a manager and [00:13:00] a leader.

Kaival Patel: Massively, massively.

Payman Langroudi: But now, between you and your wife, [00:13:05] what’s her name?

Kaival Patel: Serena.

Payman Langroudi: Serena. Yeah. Are you the good cop? And she’s the bad cop, or [00:13:10] is it. Have you broken into those kind of things or. I’ve got another very important [00:13:15] question on top here. Now, when you’re looking for practices, are [00:13:20] you the sort of cold numbers guy or [00:13:25] are you actually looking for practices where you don’t have to make too many changes? Does that does that raise the price [00:13:30] a little bit? If the culture’s already good?

Kaival Patel: No, I haven’t seen too [00:13:35] many practices that have our culture. So yeah. [00:13:40] So, so I think in terms of and you don’t really know, you can’t. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Kaival Patel: Tell.

Payman Langroudi: Until.

Kaival Patel: You’re there, until you’re there, you know, it might look great on the outside and everything else, [00:13:50] but you don’t really know until you’re there.

Payman Langroudi: So small town like Milton Keynes, when you’re so involved [00:13:55] in the Dental world, right? Nurses, receptionists, practice managers every [00:14:00] single practice in the town has a reputation that you can get access to.

Kaival Patel: To an [00:14:05] element, to an element. Again, you don’t. It’s the nitty gritty of the culture that you actually need to know. You [00:14:10] know, it’s actually is there one person who stirs the pot that’s the bit that you need to [00:14:15] to get to quickly rather than, you know, they might they might all look out for each other or to [00:14:20] an extent or, you know, really like the principal dentist that’s there and that sort of thing. But actually [00:14:25] it’s, it’s it’s the finer points and it’s also who are, who’s going to [00:14:30] look to join us in terms of what we’re trying to do. You know, who’s that? Social events that we look to do. [00:14:35] Do they believe in that. You know, that side of things. Do they believe in the positivity side of things? So, you know, a lot [00:14:40] of, you know, I talk to lots of people and they might, you know, I see their their eyes sort [00:14:45] of glaze over a little bit in that, you know, that’s all this fluffy stuff that you’re talking about. Positivity. How does that equate to [00:14:50] numbers? Um, so and some people and some dentists and, you know, some [00:14:55] practice owners, for example, they don’t quite get that part of it. So I think, I [00:15:00] don’t know until I’m there to.

Payman Langroudi: You know, Kunala love teeth.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The, [00:15:05] you know, he has much less trouble getting associates to work for him. Yeah. Than [00:15:10] comparable practices. Yeah. Because at the moment you walk into that place, you [00:15:15] know, this is a great place to work. Yeah, yeah. And that’s the feeling I got from yours as well. And [00:15:20] one way he does it, he does it in many ways. But one way he does it is by [00:15:25] overstaffing.

Kaival Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There’s more humans around than, than [00:15:30] you would find in a normal practice. Yeah. And I kind of like that because [00:15:35] you just in a practice. I feel like this is not enough humans, you know, number one. Yeah. [00:15:40] But also he does things like surprise and delight for his nurses. That gets them. There was one [00:15:45] person. There was a time where there was one person’s whole job was to find deals for the for [00:15:50] the staff locally. So their staff would get like spa [00:15:55] memberships at half price. Yeah. You know, this sort of thing.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So interesting. [00:16:00]

Kaival Patel: It’s really. And we do the same thing. So I think we’re just not. And I think a lot of people [00:16:05] do it as well. They’re just probably not vocal enough about it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, we did the same thing. [00:16:10] We went to local businesses and just just to have almost like a team card that they can use and [00:16:15] have discounts on, on certain things. Um, but I think for us it’s, it’s getting it [00:16:20] into the day to day. Um, so we, we have this, um, you know, uh, innovation, [00:16:25] I guess, which was the Connor Cup. And, and really, you [00:16:30] get points for positivity. Okay. Yeah. And So, you know, area manager or [00:16:35] or, uh, you know, the the manager will sit with the Harry Potter Sorting hat at the start of the year, [00:16:40] put everybody into four houses, and they’ve decided the names of these houses between them. [00:16:45] And each of the practice has these four houses and and you just so it’s not KPI [00:16:50] driven, it’s not money driven, it’s purely points for positivity. So helping each other [00:16:55] out at the end of the day, um, Google reviews with your names on it and having having a patient that’s had a really [00:17:00] good experience and you get these these points for these little things. Practice manager has a certain number [00:17:05] of points that they can give out if they see, you know, something really positive happening within the practice and what [00:17:10] it did. And then at the end of the quarter, marketing manager will rock up with the prize wheel and they’ll spin the prize wheel [00:17:15] winning team will get something small, you know, like a lunch or a bowling or these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: Kudos.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:17:20] And then at the end of the year, we’ve got the Kano Awards and there’s a big sort of Champions League trophy that the [00:17:25] winning, winning, winning team gets. And to be honest, those [00:17:30] sort of things. Firstly, it gets a bit of friendly competition between some of the team members, [00:17:35] but the main thing is it gets them working together. Yet they have a team captain. That team captain sort of, [00:17:40] you know, spurs it on and we notice things like that bring bring the teams [00:17:45] closer together. And then when we have group related events then so we have a Kano [00:17:50] Olympics. So in the middle of the year sports day you know, and then you get points for these [00:17:55] sort of things. And what have you learned.

Payman Langroudi: What have you learnt about announcing new [00:18:00] ideas like that to your team without I mean, you know, you said the one person who’s stirring [00:18:05] the pot. Yeah. Let’s say you’re in a meeting with 20 of them and say, hey, I’ve got a new idea. The Kano Olympics, [00:18:10] that one person can destroy that idea there and then by making a noise [00:18:15] or a face or whatever. What have you learnt about how to introduce new ideas [00:18:20] to the team? So for them to take it on and really get the best out of the idea.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [00:18:25] you’re right. And that one person can destroy it. So we’re really quick To [00:18:30] to have a conversation with whoever we feel that one person is. So [00:18:35] let’s say we have that.

Payman Langroudi: Before the announcement. No, no.

Kaival Patel: So let’s say we’ve had an announcement [00:18:40] and we noticed that face.

Payman Langroudi: That face. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So we will have a conversation with that person afterwards. Just [00:18:45] saying look, we noticed it. You didn’t look that enthused. Is there something going on? You know, and it could [00:18:50] be something personal. It could be something else. Um, and then we’ll say, look, do you think it’s a bad idea? [00:18:55] Because actually, what we’re trying to do is bring the team together for x, Y, z. And this is what we feel [00:19:00] is going to do. And it’s a really nice thing to do. And we feel it’s a really nice thing to do. So is there anything [00:19:05] that you have against it? And we might hash it out. Normally it’s no and it’s this sort of sheepish [00:19:10] look down and you get a couple of strikes with that. And then we’ll have a conversation [00:19:15] about whether, you know, this is working for us.

Payman Langroudi: And these are these are conversations [00:19:20] you weren’t having in the first practice. You were just like, you know, shy and worried and didn’t want [00:19:25] to rock the boat.

Kaival Patel: It was it was not rocking the boat. Yeah. And it was not knowing what we didn’t know. And I think [00:19:30] over time we sort of grew in confidence with that part of it. And it sounds like we’re really militant about being positive, [00:19:35] but it just sort of happens. It actually the vibes are really good in the practices. And it’s [00:19:40] not just Serena and I, you know, so we hire managers, you hire.

Payman Langroudi: For it. [00:19:45]

Kaival Patel: For it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So attitude. You mean.

Kaival Patel: Attitude. Absolutely. Based on attitude.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:19:50] do you tell. Well like tell me that man.

Kaival Patel: So firstly just the [00:19:55] conversation you know. So conversation wise. And I’ll explain to them this, this image [00:20:00] I have of kind of health group and what we’re trying to do. And don’t get me wrong, we’re not 100% there. We’re definitely 100%.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:20:05] this occasional humans who just tell. You can tell. Yeah. So what do you do? Do you, do you [00:20:10] see many, many, many, many until you come across that one that you can just see the spark. Or [00:20:15] are you the type of person who can develop like, you know, people who [00:20:20] are 6 or 7 out of ten into nine out of ten, like, how do you look at that? Do you only want to hire [00:20:25] these superstars and you let loads go and no no no no no. We interview [00:20:30] a.

Kaival Patel: Lot. Yeah we.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Constantly interviewing I guess.

Kaival Patel: No not.

Payman Langroudi: We.

Kaival Patel: I mean, when we have a position [00:20:35] we won’t jump into that that hiring process. But you’re absolutely right. You don’t know until they’re in [00:20:40] place. So what we then do is a one week review. Two week review, three weeks, four weeks, two [00:20:45] months, three months. And during that process, we’re quick to say, okay, look, [00:20:50] you know, this is what we might, you know, have thought you could have done in this scenario. And this [00:20:55] is how we can coach you. This is how we can help you develop that side of it. And if their attitude is good, [00:21:00] then there’s no problems. You know, it’s when they sometimes they might think, [00:21:05] you know, oh, I’ve done this in another place and I know exactly what those people are really [00:21:10] good with systems and processes sometimes and maybe KPIs and, you know, corporate sort of [00:21:15] lingo and everything else. But they’re not necessarily the best people for the people and for us. [00:21:20] We want the managers to really develop the people side of it, because actually, what’s the biggest stress? [00:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: People.

Kaival Patel: People you know. So if you can take away that as much [00:21:30] as you can, the element of stress with the people and be the person that walks the shop floor. Go and say, [00:21:35] see everybody. Go and talk to everybody. Go and see how they are. And sometimes it is that conversation [00:21:40] of, you know, leaving personal stuff at the door. Work is work, but we still help [00:21:45] you out as in whatever way we can. But it is that people side of it. And and [00:21:50] that’s the bit I think we can we can help develop them. Kpis, all these things people [00:21:55] generally can learn, you know, and you just develop systems and processes for that. You make [00:22:00] it, you know, idiot proof guide as to what it is. And I need an idiot proof guide when it comes to systems and processes [00:22:05] and these sort of things. So I understand that element of it. But the people side is the bit where [00:22:10] you don’t know, after two conversations with somebody how great you are with with people, you [00:22:15] have to be, you know, you have to be given the chance in the practice. Yeah. Um, but actually what [00:22:20] we try and say to them as well is, look, it’s our voice, but we [00:22:25] don’t want there to be a them and us scenario. So you have to own that message, you know? So let’s [00:22:30] say we’re trying to implement something and you got to tell the team, yeah, you have to believe in it. And if you don’t believe it, talk to us [00:22:35] now. You know, and tell me the bits that you don’t quite understand or believe in or whatever, because [00:22:40] you have to own that message. And if they own it, then it’s not. Cable and Serena have said, go do this. [00:22:45] It’s we’re going to do this because of x, y, z. And I think that’s important.

Payman Langroudi: But then [00:22:50] how do you handle it when that person says, yeah, yeah, I don’t like the name Olympics. Can we change it to [00:22:55] tour de tour? The tour? The tour de France. Yeah. [00:23:00] And we get that a lot. No, no, but do you know what I mean? When it’s. Let’s say it’s a bad idea. Yeah. [00:23:05] An idea that wouldn’t work across the whole group. Now, now you have to hand. You have to [00:23:10] sort of empathise. You have to get that in. Yeah. And then say it’s a bad idea. And then without [00:23:15] ruining that person’s like, creativity.

Kaival Patel: And we’ve got [00:23:20] a big belief as well that we can try things and it can fail. It’s all right. [00:23:25] And actually, it’s just this this evolutionary cycle. Right? You try it, it might [00:23:30] not work and then improve it a little bit. And actually, if it completely floods, it’s all right. At least we’ve tried it and we’ve tried to [00:23:35] be innovative and we try something different. And you know, there’s plenty of things that don’t quite work out. Um, [00:23:40] and you try it. And that part we empower the team, you know. So if they [00:23:45] have any ideas like that. Yeah, we’ll give it a go. As long as it’s, you know, not going to cost my kidney and house [00:23:50] and everything else to to go with it, you know, let’s, let’s give it a go or give a version of it a go [00:23:55] and then and then try it if it’s the name and these sort of things, you know, there’s far [00:24:00] more smarter people than me in the team. You know, we’ve got an amazing marketing manager, we’ve got a head of growth and development, and [00:24:05] these guys have that creative spark. Yeah, people. Um, so I’ve got a trust in them [00:24:10] as well. Right? It can’t just be careful, you know, deciding all the things and we’ll give it a go and [00:24:15] go from there.

Payman Langroudi: So give me the, the sort of the stats, the snapshot of where we’re at right now [00:24:20] with the group. With the group numbers, I don’t mean necessarily money, [00:24:25] but I’m talking about people, clinicians, non-clinicians just [00:24:30] the whole thing. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So yeah, five practices, about 28, 29 [00:24:35] chairs between those five practices. Wow. 130 ish [00:24:40] people between them. So maybe 40 odd clinicians and the [00:24:45] rest are employed team members. Um, and [00:24:50] yeah, they’re all big, big places. Um, and one of the practices of partnership practice. [00:24:55] So we own with another associate of mine and.

Payman Langroudi: The org chart outside of, you know, dentists, [00:25:00] receptionists above on the, on the, on the corporate level. What’s the org chart?

Kaival Patel: It’s a really good question [00:25:05] because actually I find when I talk to other group sizes similar to ours, that’s the [00:25:10] bit where it’s tricky at this stage. Um, so we’ve previously had a head of operations. [00:25:15] We’ve had, um, you know, lots of different sort of almost corporate [00:25:20] style jobs. And right now there’s Srini and I as directors. Srini is very [00:25:25] much, you know, into the operations side of the business. I’m focussed on growth and development [00:25:30] side of things, and I’ll probably focus more on the clinicians in terms of getting [00:25:35] them growing and developing. Then we’ve got a head of growth and development. We’ve got somebody [00:25:40] who is in charge of projects and that could be literally anything.

Payman Langroudi: We have one. Yeah, we [00:25:45] have one.

Kaival Patel: And then we have a marketing manager and and her assistant. And [00:25:50] that’s actually in effect the senior management sort of team or the management team. And then we [00:25:55] have the practice managers in each practice area manager. So we don’t anymore. No, [00:26:00] no.

Payman Langroudi: You had one.

Kaival Patel: We had area managers and and we found [00:26:05] that’s the difficulty, I think, of where we are at the moment. So as [00:26:10] we add probably 1 or 2 more sides or it becomes a bit more spread out, then [00:26:15] I think we will probably need somebody. But actually at the moment, Serena tends to do a lot [00:26:20] of that, and she’ll go to the practices. And the main role of the area manager we find is is supporting the practice [00:26:25] managers, but empowering them, you know, and sometimes you can have area managers who mollycoddle [00:26:30] the practice managers. They don’t want to do that. I’ll take it over for you because it’s easy, it’s quick, and they’re [00:26:35] really busy, right? They’re trying to look after X number of people. And we found that actually [00:26:40] what we want to do is focus the next year or so with Serena empowering the practice managers. Get them to the [00:26:45] level that they, you know, we really want them to be. And then and then probably [00:26:50] step away a little bit and have a look if we had a few more sites, um, you know, practices at that [00:26:55] point and I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know if you heard the conversation I had with Anushka.

Kaival Patel: Yes, I did, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So she said of [00:27:00] the mirror for the, for people. But she said she’s got I don’t know what it is. What was it, 37, [00:27:05] 42, 42, 4242 practices. Yeah. And [00:27:10] she said 5 or 6 was a real moment, that things get a lot easier [00:27:15] after 5 or 6. It’s interesting.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I said, why? She said something regarding this [00:27:20] about how the numbers just work better when there’s more than five or so up to. She said up to 5 or [00:27:25] 6. You’re running and running and running. Yeah. Um, both of you have stopped [00:27:30] practising now?

Kaival Patel: Yes. We have. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much are you [00:27:35] working on it, and how much are you not? I mean, are you are you working on it? [00:27:40] Is it is it harder work than when you were a dentist or.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I don’t think [00:27:45] I’d say it’s harder. I think it’s different, you know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you five days a week? Six days? Are you?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: Evenings.

Kaival Patel: All the time. And you know when when you’re married to the other director as well.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Our conversations [00:27:55] are either about work or about the kids. Yeah. You know that that tends to be what [00:28:00] we’re about. And then we, you know, we’ll have our own chill time and watching Netflix and these sort of things that we like. The [00:28:05] same sort of stuff. But yeah, it’s it’s hard. It is hard, but it’s a different hard, you [00:28:10] know, and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not turning, turning up every morning at 830 for a patient.

Kaival Patel: Exactly. [00:28:15] Yeah. Yeah. It’s not the same sort of time constraints as that, but there is no time. Yeah. [00:28:20] You know, my lunchtime, in effect, is when the kids come home at 5 or 6:00 and I [00:28:25] try and have dinner with them, but then I go back to work, you know, afterwards. Yeah. If I’m doing interviews [00:28:30] or these sort of things in the evening. Well, to be honest, you see us and you took a picture of us and there’s three on one side. [00:28:35] I’m on the other with laptops on our laps, covering emails or figuring out what we’re doing with the next, you know, [00:28:40] whatever we’re doing. And so the first hardest part, though, was the [00:28:45] identity crisis I had when I stopped doing clinical work.

Payman Langroudi: Me too.

Kaival Patel: Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard. [00:28:50]

Kaival Patel: Yeah. How did you. How did you get over it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, I was hardly doing any [00:28:55] dentistry whatsoever, but I just wasn’t willing to say I’ve stopped. [00:29:00] I just wasn’t willing to do it. Even though I’d stopped before. But before I knew I was coming back. [00:29:05] This time, it was that question of, am I going to stop? And you really class yourself as a dentist, [00:29:10] you know? Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You do. And that’s your whole identity, right? Yes. When you go to family barbecues [00:29:15] and weddings and you’re introduced as the.

Payman Langroudi: Taxi driver asks you, what do you do? I [00:29:20] still say dentist, by the way. It sounds better than syringe guy.

Kaival Patel: But [00:29:25] there’s a lot of different connotations with that one.

Payman Langroudi: But I think the real key point for [00:29:30] me was when I realised I can always come back. Yeah. And that really just made me [00:29:35] think, oh, okay, no problem, I can, I can leave if I need to. I can always [00:29:40] come back. Yeah. How about you? So how did you handle it?

Kaival Patel: So? So the reason I became non-clinical [00:29:45] wasn’t quite the business side. The business part followed. It was I had a dodgy eye. [00:29:50] So during Covid, um, well, actually, in my 20s, early 20s, [00:29:55] I found out that I had this eye condition. I was that guy at the eye hospital where they bring [00:30:00] all the students to come and have a look, because there’s something weird going on and trying to poke and prod and figure out what it is. [00:30:05] Um, and then during Covid, it must be with the stress of everything. And yeah, it [00:30:10] really deteriorated. So to the point where I couldn’t really see the number plate in front of me, and [00:30:15] I thought because everything was closed, I thought I just needed to change my glasses. I went to the optician. They were like, [00:30:20] no, no, you need to see an ophthalmologist and figure it out. I knew at that point it was the condition that’s [00:30:25] really flared up, and I decided that.

Payman Langroudi: What was the condition?

Kaival Patel: So it’s called theisen’s punctate [00:30:30] keratosis. Keratosis keratitis. In effect, it’s protein plaques on the eye. And [00:30:35] it starts scarring the eyes. And you get vascular growth in there. And so [00:30:40] to be honest I always when it flared up before I had drops and it used to settle [00:30:45] down. But it was really bad at that point. And I thought I can’t do not do you know, I can’t do [00:30:50] dentistry without my eyes. I need to make a bit of a cooler and sat down with Serena and just said, look, [00:30:55] I don’t want a medical condition to to stop me. I want to make [00:31:00] the call on my own. Right. And so at that point, also, we were on this [00:31:05] entrepreneur program with NatWest and actually there was loads of different businesses. [00:31:10] Loved it, you know. So sometimes when we’re all just enclosed in dentistry, it’s a very same, [00:31:15] same world. These were loads of start up businesses and the energy was insane. And we [00:31:20] both realised that we both loved the business side of it, which is unusual. Sometimes you normally [00:31:25] have one person that likes the clinical. One person might like the business, but we both love the business side. So we had a chat [00:31:30] and we said, look, the only way we can probably make it work is by growing and having [00:31:35] more practices. And we also just sat down and figured out this is the first [00:31:40] time we figured out the numbers.

Kaival Patel: So, you know, up until then I was as most principal [00:31:45] owner principal, you do the work, you’re taking pittance out of the practice and [00:31:50] you’re the money that you generate is going into the practice, but you don’t know, you know. So [00:31:55] I was spending loads of marketing and loads on everything and just letting it go because you don’t have the time to just sit there [00:32:00] and, and that’s the only one benefit of Covid is you can sit down and we figured out, you know, [00:32:05] what our surgery costs were and what they’re, you know, running it. And there was a good webinar at [00:32:10] the time which sort of went through all of that stuff. And then we realised, well, actually, we we [00:32:15] need to grow things. We need to spend time on the business. Let’s give it a go. Worst case, exactly [00:32:20] what you said is we’ll go back into dentistry if it doesn’t quite work out. Um, so, [00:32:25] so yeah, that’s what forced me actually to stop. And it took a little while once we were back in after Covid [00:32:30] to finish my cases and yeah, these sort of things, um, Serena had stopped at that point [00:32:35] as well. And then. Yeah. And then we sort of went, went into just focusing [00:32:40] on the business side of it.

Payman Langroudi: And with the I mean, the growth is quite quick. You’re [00:32:45] Covid sorry you started 2015. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So really slow at the start.

Payman Langroudi: We’re ten [00:32:50] years in. Yeah. And 30 chairs. Not a joke. It’s that’s not [00:32:55] a joke. That’s fast growth. That’s fast growth. With that speed of growth [00:33:00] you’re obviously having to throw every penny back into the business. Right. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You do, [00:33:05] you do. Um, we do well out of it as well, to be honest. You know, [00:33:10] so I think we yeah, we it comes to funding, actually, a lot [00:33:15] of the time. So, so high street banks in general, you know, they want you to put ten, 20% down. [00:33:20] All the practice we buy are big practices, you know, a million, £2 million things. So 10 to 20% [00:33:25] is no joke. Yeah. But again, we made the call that, you know, we’re going to put this money back in. We’re going to put the money [00:33:30] in to develop the places. You know, we’re going to develop and upskill our clinicians. Um, [00:33:35] and we’ll keep a track of the numbers and we make sure that we’re on top of it. So the last [00:33:40] year or so, I think we’ve been really on top of it in terms of the numbers of things. And we’ll go through [00:33:45] and we’ll have KPI related meetings together. And I’ve got a business coach, and she [00:33:50] also doubles up as a marriage counsellor between me and Serena. So, yeah. Um, but, [00:33:55] you know, we focus on those aspects. And I think the cool thing about the size we are is that [00:34:00] we can try lots of things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You know, and we can try these things. [00:34:05] And sometimes they won’t work, sometimes they work and we sort of develop on it.

Payman Langroudi: So size is a funny thing, man, because [00:34:10] it depends what you’re chasing, doesn’t it? Like I used to I used to want to chase happiness. [00:34:15] Not happiness. Joy. Joy.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Pleasure. Yeah, yeah. And he had it all mixed up. I used to think [00:34:20] pleasure and joy and happiness were all one thing. Yeah. So I was chasing that [00:34:25] and that. It’s an unlimited sort of cost base to that, right? So [00:34:30] even more joy. Get even a bigger boat. Right? You know what I mean? It’s there’s no. So [00:34:35] now, though, I feel like I’m. I’m chasing peace.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And whatever.

Kaival Patel: It.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:34:40] whatever the thing is, whatever the thing is, it’s like hiring a new social [00:34:45] media manager. Yeah. And I’m thinking of of of what will it take for this to give [00:34:50] me more peace. Yeah. And often that is hiring the right one. All of those things. [00:34:55] Yeah. Hiring the right one, training them properly, inspiring them. All of that stuff will eventually get you [00:35:00] somewhere where you’ve got peace now, because someone’s doing well at that. So sometimes peace is hard work [00:35:05] itself. Is it nice.

Kaival Patel: Or is it productivity?

Payman Langroudi: Peace. Is it peace for me? Yeah. [00:35:10] Yeah, yeah. Some people. Some people you just met upstairs. He’s all about potential, [00:35:15] you know. Okay. And potential is a beautiful thing, too, you know? And he’s all about automation [00:35:20] and stuff, right? So there’s some things. Turn one person on more than the other. You know, it’s [00:35:25] an interesting question, but you know what you’re saying here about right where you are at [00:35:30] right now. And I’ve been involved in your business enough to know you’re in a happy place. Yeah. [00:35:35] Yeah. I think back sometimes to pre-COVID 2014. [00:35:40] Yeah. We were much smaller company, but we [00:35:45] were so happy. We were so happy. Nice. Yeah. Because the team at that point [00:35:50] was just perfect. It was easy enough to manage whatever it was. 12 people. Yeah. Yeah. And, [00:35:55] you know, we were in a happy place. So this question of where is it going and what is it? What drives you? Do you think [00:36:00] potential drives you.

Kaival Patel: You sort of say peace or say happiness. And I think that’s [00:36:05] probably a problem I do have. I’ve never really that happy, you know, with wherever we are, I’ve, [00:36:10] I’ve always got an itch.

[TRANSITION]: I want more.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, I’ll get the car, I’ll get the house and all these [00:36:15] things. It’s great for a week. And then I don’t feel that content [00:36:20] because.

Payman Langroudi: Things don’t bring contentment. That’s the problem. I never thought I would be this cat to talk, preach this message. [00:36:25] But things don’t. Things don’t. They don’t. I was chasing experiences, right. But [00:36:30] even experiences in the end. Right? It’s a funny thing. It’s a funny thing. But [00:36:35] knowing, knowing what it is for you is the important thing. Because it’s a bit of a [00:36:40] cliche, but the older I get, the more I realise all the cliches are real. Yes. Yeah. [00:36:45] That, you know, um, Stephen Covey used to say a thing about climbing up the [00:36:50] wrong ladder really quickly. Yeah. And knowing which [00:36:55] is the right ladder to climb up. Yeah, yeah. Because running, climbing up ladders quickly on their [00:37:00] own can lead you to wrong places, you know. Bad places.

Kaival Patel: And you don’t [00:37:05] know it until you’re there, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I think, you know, [00:37:10] I’ve always got this itch. I always need to try different things. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: Were you always very ambitious?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [00:37:15] probably. Probably so. I used to. First thing is at [00:37:20] school, I used to, um, you know, those DVDs, DVD burner? Yeah. I [00:37:25] managed to save up. I don’t even know. Probably asked Mum and Dad, um, for a little bit of funding [00:37:30] for a DVD burner. I used to copy these DVDs and sell them, you know, in school and bootleg. [00:37:35] Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Criminal mind as well.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, absolutely. Criminal mind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: This [00:37:40] is why the ankle tag only lets me go so far. Um. And then. [00:37:45] Yeah, I’ve always had something, you know, I, as an associate, I developed an [00:37:50] app called the Dental professor, which absolutely flunked. Um, absolutely flunk because I didn’t [00:37:55] really, you know, put enough time and effort into it, but it was it was almost like the, you know, dentinal tubules [00:38:00] before tubules were sort of there and taking videos from different, different [00:38:05] sources and have educational videos for, for, you know, I used to find, [00:38:10] I used to speak to people straight from at that point or PhD now and, you know, they hadn’t had that much [00:38:15] experience. So I thought, okay, let’s, let’s try and get them that experience and, and monetise it and have, you [00:38:20] know, this, this dental profession.

Payman Langroudi: Why dentistry? Did you, did you want to be this sort of IT guy or something before [00:38:25] your parents stepped in and made you become a dentist?

Kaival Patel: Parents never made me do anything. Yeah. They [00:38:30] didn’t. They wanted me to have a secure profession. You know, they were immigrants from Uganda, got kicked [00:38:35] out, um, from Uganda, and they focussed everything they had on just [00:38:40] educating, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Ugandan Asians, master race.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I told you this before, haven’t I?

Kaival Patel: They’re [00:38:45] amazing. They’re amazing. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:38:50] they came over after Idi Amin.

Kaival Patel: Idi Amin, and, um, so my, [00:38:55] my dad’s dad passed away when he was really, really young. So he was he was my grandmother [00:39:00] and he was, you know, the linchpin of the family. And actually my my eldest uncle, [00:39:05] who pretty much resumed that, that father role for, for his he had eight dad [00:39:10] had seven other siblings. And my uncle just passed away recently. And it [00:39:15] was nice hearing the stories of of what they sacrificed and what they, you know, became and [00:39:20] and how hard they really worked. I don’t think sometimes I don’t really have that concept. I [00:39:25] can hear it, but I can’t truly understand, you know, Mom and dad had newsagent’s shops, [00:39:30] um, when I was a kid, and they worked every hour, you know, every hour. Sundays. He wasn’t having [00:39:35] a weekend off. He was, you know, Saturday, Sundays. Um, and all they did was to try [00:39:40] and get me and my sister educated.

Payman Langroudi: How many?

Kaival Patel: How many.

Payman Langroudi: Newsagents.

Kaival Patel: At [00:39:45] the most. They had two at one point, but most of the time they had one. And dad then had a dry [00:39:50] cleaners afterwards. Um, when they, when they sold the newsagents. But yeah. No he wasn’t he [00:39:55] wasn’t like a, you know, a big sort of entrepreneurial chain. He was just grafting, getting [00:40:00] enough. It really was. I genuinely say it to get me and my sister through. They really believed in private education, [00:40:05] went to private school. We had a really bad financial time. At one point I had to move away from [00:40:10] from private school, and my sister was sort of at GCSE [00:40:15] time at that point, so you could tell who the favourite was. Yeah, she, she stayed in school. Now she’ll, she’ll. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: Just discussing this upstairs weren’t we. Like what would it take to make you go back to becoming a dentist. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: And Sandra was saying even if you had to take his kids out of private school, he [00:40:30] still wouldn’t. Yeah, yeah. So go on. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So, um. So. So. Yeah. [00:40:35] So I went to this school.

Payman Langroudi: Was it? Where did you grow up? Milton Keynes. Milton Keynes. So then [00:40:40] you went to university?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. In Manchester. Absolutely. Loved my time there. [00:40:45] Absolutely loved my time. It was. It was the best year. 2003 to [00:40:50] 2008.

Payman Langroudi: Around Kailash time. Do [00:40:55] you remember Kailash?

Kaival Patel: No, no I don’t. I met Kailash afterwards, but. But not. [00:41:00] Not at university.

Payman Langroudi: How did you enjoy Manchester? As in. Did you get there like big [00:41:05] city? I’m going to have fun. First time freedom.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, it was a. [00:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: Lot.

Kaival Patel: Of that, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, I used to. I enjoyed, you know, I had a really good group [00:41:15] of friends who I’m really, really close with now. Mixture of dentists and non dentists. And [00:41:20] we enjoyed the time there. You know quite, quite frankly. It was in my same year um, although [00:41:25] we didn’t get together until, you know, after university, but, um. Yeah, I mean, I [00:41:30] did enough to get through. I wasn’t an exceptional student. It’s quite funny. We have we [00:41:35] have some of the speakers that are on our course now who were probably my clinical tutors at that point. [00:41:40] Yeah. They won’t remember me at all.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t.

Kaival Patel: Remember her? She was a great [00:41:45] student. Oh. Was she? But, you know, I was I wasn’t really, um. I did [00:41:50] enough to get through, except for my final year when I had this stark realisation that if I fail, all [00:41:55] my friends have gone and moved on and I’ll be. I’ll be left where I am and I studied then. [00:42:00] I did study then and I did quite well out of it. But yeah, it was um, [00:42:05] yeah, I enjoyed it. Lots of sports, lots of going out, lots of these. And I like Manchester because [00:42:10] it’s a big city. But everything, especially the Dental side of it, was really quite close together.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:42:15] not a big city at all, actually. The middle is quite small, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, that’s the thing. Yeah. If [00:42:20] you there’s.

Kaival Patel: Lots of things to do.

Payman Langroudi: I went back to Cardiff. Yeah. Um, with a buddy and [00:42:25] we realised we walked around the area that we used to hang out and [00:42:30] we realised there was this tiny little area of the city. I mean, you know, we used to have cars and we used [00:42:35] to go and have a, I don’t know, meal somewhere outside of that little area. But I remember looking at the area [00:42:40] thinking, shit, man, it was that road, that road, that road, that road, that road. And they were in a little like [00:42:45] a octagon. Yes. Yeah. That was at the most two miles. It’s [00:42:50] really.

Kaival Patel: Not not.

Payman Langroudi: Not a big area. Yeah. Not a big area. And I think the central Manchester bit like that. [00:42:55]

Kaival Patel: It felt close. Yeah. And that’s why I wanted, you know, my choices I think were sort of Manchester, [00:43:00] Liverpool. It was all up north really. Um I think I found London too vast for me. [00:43:05] Um, so, so, yeah, I really enjoyed my time there. I really enjoyed my time.

Payman Langroudi: Did you even consider [00:43:10] staying or. No, not at all.

Kaival Patel: No. I always wanted to come back home. You know, I wanted to come back home. So. [00:43:15]

Payman Langroudi: First job.

Kaival Patel: First job in Northampton. So quite close to. To Milton Keynes. [00:43:20] Um, and then probably my, my biggest break was my associate position. [00:43:25] I had sort of one job interview with a chap called rescue who, [00:43:30] um, is, was in Wellingborough, and he’s absolutely [00:43:35] my mentor, you know, in that thing. And I was an associate there for a number of years. Uh, [00:43:40] I learned from him and from how he did things. The importance of having [00:43:45] people come in to to upskill your You dentists, you know, and just just the fun part [00:43:50] of learning. The side of dentistry, you’re not suddenly in a job. 9 to 5, you go home and whatever else it was. [00:43:55] The camaraderie part of it, the social part of it, and also the the learning part. [00:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: And so he’d organised education for all the associates.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, he did, he did [00:44:05] he there was a sort of, you know, a hotel near where he lived and [00:44:10] he’d just, you know, hire out the function room there. And he must have had ten, 12, 15, [00:44:15] maybe 20 associates. And, you know, whoever were into it, [00:44:20] they’d come there and, you know, they’ll they’ll lend their bits and sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of a social.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:44:25] not necessarily socially. It was they actually learning part of it. So he did the courses, socials and things were, [00:44:30] were Christmases and, you know, these sort of things. But the learning part he used to get these, these and, [00:44:35] you know, I used to speak to other, you know, my friends in, in their positions and so on [00:44:40] and any courses that they wanted to go and they would have to go and find it themselves going, yeah, yeah, go and do it. And [00:44:45] um, and there was nothing local, you know. Everything was London and Manchester and these sort of places. [00:44:50] So. So yeah, I really learnt a lot by me, by him.

Payman Langroudi: And he was a implantology [00:44:55] artist.

Kaival Patel: He do a lot of implants. Yeah, he used to, he used to do a lot of everything. Invisalign, [00:45:00] implants. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you [00:45:05] start learning implants quite quickly or.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, I did my MSC quite quickly. Um, [00:45:10] how long from it?

Payman Langroudi: Like, which year was it?

Kaival Patel: Um, so actually, I completed the MSC [00:45:15] the year I took over Oxford. Oxford House, my first practice. So I completed [00:45:20] 2015. So I must have started. Yeah. 2012, I guess, or 2011.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve seen [00:45:25] implantology.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Distance.

Kaival Patel: What did you know full time? So [00:45:30] part of it was based in Harley Street, um, BPP [00:45:35] University.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Kaival Patel: And then the last part of it, they sort of switched over and it was [00:45:40] University of Warwick, which was the academic year. Um, and at the same time did [00:45:45] her masters in Indo. So she was very Indo focussed and again she finished it [00:45:50] and we also had our first child in that same year as well. I remember having [00:45:55] the interview and Sarina was he was five days old in the interview prior [00:46:00] to taking over the practice, and he was very attached to her. And then she was [00:46:05] having this interview, you know, five days post, post birth. And I just said, look, [00:46:10] if they ask you a dodgy question, you know, just give him a bit of a nudge and get him to cry or something. So it will put [00:46:15] them off the scent. You know, the.

Payman Langroudi: Nature of those early days of business building and [00:46:20] life building that it’s part of the nature of it, that you end up in the same two [00:46:25] years buying a house, buying a business, getting married or having a kid. Like all those [00:46:30] things happen all at the same time. And even though those are the sort of [00:46:35] the, you know, foundations of the life that you’re building for yourself, I remember [00:46:40] being very overwhelmed by those years. I mean, I don’t know, the business for us was [00:46:45] this. And we were losing big amounts of money, huge amounts of money. And then, [00:46:50] you know, it’s a big change to becoming a husband, a father, if that’s where you went [00:46:55] in those years. You said you’re a father. Yeah. People don’t. [00:47:00] People don’t realise that that’s going to come. And then when you’re in it, [00:47:05] you don’t realise everyone’s going through it. You feel like it’s you. Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:10] So you get a little bit older and you see it. See the pattern happen again and again. Yes. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: You’re right, [00:47:15] you’re right. Yeah. But we always wanted we I don’t, you know, even now when we look back at things, [00:47:20] we think, well, actually nothing’s really as busy as whatever that year was, you know, around [00:47:25] it. Um, and so when we bought the first practice, we tried to buy a practice [00:47:30] a couple of years before, and that ended up going all the way to [00:47:35] sort of completion. We were due to complete two weeks later. We were due to get married, and [00:47:40] that ended up not going ahead because the person there was setting up another practice [00:47:45] nearby and telling his patients to to to move over. And so we ended up having [00:47:50] to, to to scrap that. But you know, like I think we were used to a long period of time where [00:47:55] there’s loads of things going. Even the second practice, we had our second child at the time and the joke was, are you just going [00:48:00] to keep having children with practices? And I nope. I moved out next door just to just to stop [00:48:05] anything from happening. Um, but but yeah, so we always had loads of things going on, [00:48:10] which is the interesting part even now with, with the three kids, you know, there’s lots of things going on, but, you [00:48:15] know, it’s not the same as what we had going on at that point, really.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:48:20] where is it going next, practice wise?

Kaival Patel: Uh, we keep growing, I [00:48:25] think. Um, I’ve never been you know, everybody asks this question of how many practices do [00:48:30] you want? I don’t have a number. You know, I don’t want to. I don’t have this ten or 15 or 20 or [00:48:35] whatever it is. I want to buy practices when we’re comfortable doing it and, you know, [00:48:40] finding the right places that suit the sort of portfolio that we have and things that [00:48:45] we feel we can, we can add to. So we’ve got hopefully another one coming through now, but it’s been [00:48:50] maybe a year or 18 months since we, we purchased the one prior to that. So [00:48:55] I think we’ll grow until.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the difference with your group compared to many of the others that for instance, [00:49:00] in Alicante I sat with many, many, many people who were mini corporates. Right. Um, [00:49:05] yours is private more than it is.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. 92% private. [00:49:10] Yeah. 8% NHS. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it was funny because I noticed that pattern [00:49:15] of every almost everyone I was talking to was saying, well, we’re buying NHS practices based on the contract values [00:49:20] were, you know, remortgaging, basically buying more and more and more. Yeah. Did [00:49:25] you decide you’re going to go down the quality route right at the beginning and you’re going to stick to that, or are [00:49:30] you open to.

Kaival Patel: So we’ve had the opportunity to buy very NHS heavy [00:49:35] practices. And we’ve always felt it’s just not us. It’s not our vibe. You know, [00:49:40] I don’t mind having a small element of NHS and, um, and having that as historic value within [00:49:45] the practice, but actually we want we want that patient experience, you know, and [00:49:50] the way to deliver that is to do the dentistry that the dentists want to do in and [00:49:55] around there. That’s the dentistry side of it. And then the way you can have the team following that flow is, [00:50:00] is, is really, you know, having a nice building, having a nice presentation, having a nice flow [00:50:05] of things, having time, you know, which is the massive value aspect for any patient. [00:50:10] So um, so that’s what we focussed on. So, so yeah, when we look at practices now, [00:50:15] yeah, we don’t mind if there’s a small element, but it’s mainly private that we probably look to go to. [00:50:20]

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about this? I was at PDSA at the weekend. Yeah. Yeah. And the question of [00:50:25] people going from feet to private. Mhm. How do you feel about that. Do [00:50:30] you when you’re hiring.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you discard anyone who’s coming straight from PhD. [00:50:35]

Kaival Patel: It’s a really good question. I think Heart of [00:50:40] Hearts sometimes, you know, if if they’ve gone straight from that [00:50:45] and the, the CV has three lines saying done PhD and [00:50:50] looking for private position, then there’s no want in there. You know there’s [00:50:55] no I can’t see see that drive or if there’s not a cover letter sometimes you know, these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say [00:51:00] let’s say everything’s good on that end.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. And then when we speak to them, I feel like I can develop the, the [00:51:05] dentist. And actually it’s not so much me. It’s, it’s the team I have around [00:51:10] us. So, you know, it’s a very open door policy in all of the practices. We’ve [00:51:15] got a clinical lead dentist now because I didn’t feel like I’m, you know, being three years out of it, I’m not [00:51:20] the most appropriate person to to help train and teach. So we’ve got clinical lead dentists who, who [00:51:25] spends that time with it at.

Payman Langroudi: Each practice, or one.

Kaival Patel: Know, one practice at one practice.

Payman Langroudi: So there’s one clinical lead [00:51:30] for the whole group.

Kaival Patel: The group. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and that’s what an associate are you paying him more for. For [00:51:35] that role.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, we give them a little bit more a month and.

Payman Langroudi: Less time with patients that he’s kind of more time.

Kaival Patel: He [00:51:40] works three days clinically. So he’s got, you know these these sort of two days [00:51:45] where he’ll and he you know he doesn’t necessarily take out a lot of his, his time [00:51:50] as such. But you know, like for example materials if we’re looking through a new, new set of materials, [00:51:55] he loves that side of it. You know, I always joke with him that when wherever we’re we’re out having a few drinks, he [00:52:00] turns into this Dental materials man, or we call him Rubber dam man because he just he loves [00:52:05] rubber dam and showing it and these sort of things. But you need that person. You need that person who loves that [00:52:10] side of dentistry. Um, he does things correctly. He does things in the right way. [00:52:15] Um, so, um, so, yeah. So he spends a little bit of his time doing it. Um, and when [00:52:20] we have a new dentist joined, they’re part of the induction part, but we have everything else around [00:52:25] for that dentist to, to sort of, you know, thrive in again, [00:52:30] quickly sort of know whether they’re not on board with it.

Payman Langroudi: So this question of, you know where [00:52:35] we’re at plus one. Yeah, yeah. There is they’ve got no experience, [00:52:40] but they’ve got no bad habits.

Kaival Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it. That’s the trade off.

Kaival Patel: That’s the trade.

Payman Langroudi: Off you’re [00:52:45] having to make. There.

Kaival Patel: But you just need to have that. You can take the horse to water but you can’t force them to drink. Yeah. So if we have [00:52:50] all that there and I say in all of my interviews is, you know, there’s loads of associate positions out there now, [00:52:55] what we want is somebody who’s wants to develop and is also going to have absolute [00:53:00] respect for everybody else in the team. So if you can do those two things absolutely fine to to [00:53:05] hire you and have you as part of our group, if you feel like you, that’s not you, then [00:53:10] this isn’t the right place for you. And and you know, when, when we go through all the things that we do, [00:53:15] they love it, you know, you see it instantly.

Payman Langroudi: In love, right?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. What’s [00:53:20] not to love? And we’ve got the academy. We’ve got courses there all the time, you know. So again, [00:53:25] I don’t force any of my dentist to join the academy because it’s just a kind of health group, you know, side [00:53:30] of things. It’s they can join individual courses that they want to learn more in and these sort of things. [00:53:35] Um, but there’s that development side there. But again, you have to be willing [00:53:40] to turn up to the course and, and take part in it and speak to other clinicians. We [00:53:45] have a million WhatsApp groups, and one of them is just for clinicians. And my one rule in the WhatsApp group [00:53:50] is don’t be a dick. You know, there’s there’s lots of silly questions that you would have asked when you [00:53:55] were young and fresh into it. So, you know, allow these guys to ask questions, [00:54:00] put photographs in there, put X-rays in there and answer it, because we’ve got specialists [00:54:05] and all these wonderful clinicians within the team. And you know what? Everybody loves sharing. [00:54:10] I haven’t met a dentist who does well at their craft who doesn’t actually love sharing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:54:15] that’s true. Because then she’s a bit like in a room, isn’t it? You want to you want to [00:54:20] talk about it a little bit when you, when you, when you’re with your peers. If you’re into it, if.

Kaival Patel: You’re into it. Yeah. [00:54:25]

Payman Langroudi: So do you think you’re good at telling who’s going to be a good dentist and who’s not?

Kaival Patel: No, [00:54:30] it’s the same.

Payman Langroudi: Same as a lottery, isn’t it? In the same way as you don’t know until you know.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I [00:54:35] think we’ve hired people who haven’t been the right people after a short period of time and [00:54:40] would damage maybe our reputation and our quality of things. You know, a [00:54:45] bit to maybe money hungry, you know. Whereas I do feel that if you do [00:54:50] quality work and you spend time with the patient, the money will come. You know, everybody makes a good living, you know, when you’re doing [00:54:55] things the right way, if you’re a bit too overzealous with it or unethical, really, then that’s [00:55:00] my reputation. At the end of the day, you know. And so we’ve we’ve had to not [00:55:05] have people carry on with this as a result. Not many, not many.

Payman Langroudi: Positioning wise, you’re at the higher [00:55:10] end of the market, right.

Kaival Patel: In terms of.

Payman Langroudi: Positioning.

Kaival Patel: But you’re [00:55:15] the practices themselves or practices in the price wise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Price.

Kaival Patel: And yeah I’d say [00:55:20] we’re we’re like a John Lewis. We’re not a Harrods and we’re not a, you know, [00:55:25] anything lesser in terms of a supermarket chain, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But so are [00:55:30] you saying there is a Harrods in Milton Keynes? That’s that’s the. You know, you can’t say we’re not a Harrods if there isn’t one. [00:55:35] Mhm.

Kaival Patel: I think there are practices that position themselves, you [00:55:40] know, more up-market than we are. Yeah. And we are family orientated. You know, the [00:55:45] crux of the business and the crux of the practices are family orientated care. Um, it’s not [00:55:50] just high end work all the time, but we’ve also got a referral centre where other practices refer [00:55:55] over to us. Um, and again, we have to maintain, you know, the levels, the quality. [00:56:00] Otherwise people aren’t going to refer. We’ve got 60, 70 practices referring to us now from starting from scratch from [00:56:05] when we took over. So yeah, that.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t a referral practice to start with.

Kaival Patel: No, not [00:56:10] at all.

Payman Langroudi: No. How many years did that take to.

Kaival Patel: So we took 2017. I had [00:56:15] the first specialist there, um, which was, uh, an endodontist [00:56:20] who’s, who’s been with us ever since. Amazing guy. And, um, and then now [00:56:25] we’ve got. Yeah. Oral surgeon. An orthodontist, a couple of periodontists, um, [00:56:30] a couple of, uh, people that do sedation implants. Um, [00:56:35] so everything barring a prosthodontist at this stage.

Payman Langroudi: Children’s.

Kaival Patel: And [00:56:40] paediatric, we don’t we don’t have somebody who does.

Payman Langroudi: I would, I would.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll talk about that in a minute. But [00:56:45] so impressive man. You make it sound so effortless. I’m sure it’s not [00:56:50] right. I’m sure there’s more effort than you’re. You’re letting on here. Yeah. But at the same time. [00:56:55] So impressive, man. Thank you. Not an easy thing to do. Not an easy. Along [00:57:00] with all the other things you’re doing to make that successful, you know. So what did you do about referrals? [00:57:05] Did you sort of study club it at the academy or.

Kaival Patel: No. What I did was [00:57:10] and I don’t know how right or wrong it is, we went to every single practice around the area [00:57:15] with a box of chocolates or a hamper, um, made a referral [00:57:20] pack and literally physically went to every single practice around the area saying, look, [00:57:25] we’re doing this. We’d love you to support us. The difficult part of that practice is, [00:57:30] is the general practice as well as a referral centre. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Seen as [00:57:35] competition.

Kaival Patel: Somehow.

Payman Langroudi: As.

Kaival Patel: Well. So, you know, I made it very clear, and we are crystal clear about it, that [00:57:40] we would never take anybody’s patient. You know, you refer it that patients come back to you, you know, whatever happens. [00:57:45] And so yeah, we went to all the practice. And now every year we do the same thing. We make it wackier [00:57:50] and wilder. Every year we’ve got these doughnuts. And you know, half the time we’re we’re regarded as these, [00:57:55] you know, the doughnut practice or, you know, these massive doughnuts that are all, like, really [00:58:00] nicely decorated. And we’ll go to the practices and we’ll, we’ll, you know, we’ll just give them.

Payman Langroudi: 60, 70 [00:58:05] of them.

Kaival Patel: No. So this will be maybe 150 to [00:58:10] 200 practices will go to. So we’ll go Milton Keynes.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll go wait a minute.

Kaival Patel: Watford. Northampton.

Payman Langroudi: Face [00:58:15] to face.

Kaival Patel: Face to face.

Payman Langroudi: That’s not you.

Kaival Patel: Not me. No.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s one person’s almost whole job, [00:58:20] right? Because that’s, you know.

Kaival Patel: It’s it’s it’s the it’s the most fun and it’s [00:58:25] the most stressful time that. So we have a referral centre coordinator, we have the practice manager there, we have treatment [00:58:30] coordinator and we have the marketing team. And and every year we say, look, let’s plan this a bit [00:58:35] earlier. Uh, we’ll make it a bit. So this year I want something interesting. This [00:58:40] is the bit that gets me kicking. Yeah. So this year we had Willy Wonka golden tickets, you know, um, for, [00:58:45] for them. And they’d have to do there and they’ll scratch something and, and get this golden ticket [00:58:50] and, and these sort of. I just want to make it interesting, make it fun around it. But there’s always this [00:58:55] massive push towards whenever we call it the, you know, the hamper drop days, um, [00:59:00] to, to get it there. But yeah, they’re out for two, two weeks. Um, [00:59:05] how many people. So we’ll have this year we had two cars. [00:59:10] So two in each, two in each. And so we’d go to the doughnut place because it’s all fresh doughnuts made [00:59:15] on that day. They go to the doughnut place, pick up the doughnuts for that day, and then then take it over to.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:59:20] 7 or 8 times that day, whatever. More than that even. Yeah. How interesting.

Kaival Patel: And then [00:59:25] did.

Payman Langroudi: You come up with that yourself?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It seems so obvious.

Kaival Patel: But I [00:59:30] mean, people don’t. People don’t realise. So the first year we did it, we got loads of these [00:59:35] Cadbury’s chocolates. Me and Serena spent evenings up until 3 a.m. making these boxes [00:59:40] up. And then we, we plonked them in our hallway and [00:59:45] we were like really excited, you know, massive, like layers of these chocolate boxes that were [00:59:50] due to go out and we plugged in the hallway, forgetting that we have underfloor heating. So [00:59:55] I’ve got a few messages from friends of mine that are other practices around the area [01:00:00] with this melted chocolate bars, like, okay, what are you trying to do here? You know, and [01:00:05] we were so excited. We’d put straw in these things and wrapped it beautifully. And yeah. So, [01:00:10] you know, you learn from these sort of things. But again, you look back at it and that’s the blood, sweat and tears that we [01:00:15] were putting into something slightly different. And obviously the clinical side of it [01:00:20] speaks for itself. You know, the specialists are amazing, and they’ll do webinars and they’ll get people together. [01:00:25] We had a our first ever referral centre event, which was like a Vegas [01:00:30] theme, um, event that people came to and, you know, and they could meet the specialists and [01:00:35] these sort of things.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a massive achievement insomuch as you’re a dominant force [01:00:40] in the town already. So in a way, people think, well, am I feeding [01:00:45] my competitor outside of that practice, having a general practice side [01:00:50] to it? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if you’re a little bit competitive and you see this [01:00:55] dominant guy who’s got 30 chairs already in the town, now asking for referrals.

Kaival Patel: Might [01:01:00] piss people off. Yeah, it does actually. I’m sure it does.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it does. But but you know, the fact that you’ve [01:01:05] made it as successful as that as quickly as that is a testament to what a great guy you are, man. You’re you’re. [01:01:10]

Kaival Patel: Very kind.

Payman Langroudi: Man. You’re very kind. You’re okay.

Kaival Patel: I think, again, I [01:01:15] just have this itch and I need to do something, you know, we need to keep it going. And, and actually, I think when [01:01:20] you do become complacent is when things start dropping off. You know, and again, it’s not just me. You know, [01:01:25] I have a team around me that are doing all these things and reminding me, oh, we need to do this, that or the other, or [01:01:30] let’s try this, you know, and you’ve met some of them and they’re like, you know, on top of it, good [01:01:35] people. Good people. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your Christmas party?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: What is it, 150 people? No. Do you do the. Do you have five separate [01:01:45] ones?

Kaival Patel: No we don’t. No, no. So for the last two years, we’ve got everything. Everybody [01:01:50] together.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? That must be fun.

Kaival Patel: It was fun. It was fun. So we have. We call it. That’s [01:01:55] the kind of awards that we do. So it’s an awards night as well as the the Christmas party [01:02:00] and everything else. So I think we had about 100, 110 people. Um, [01:02:05] but it’s interesting, the first, first year we did it, last year we, we [01:02:10] had taken over a practice recently, not not too, too long before that. And we didn’t have too many [01:02:15] people from that practice turn up and these are my sort of benchmarks this [01:02:20] year. I really love it that practice. Virtually all of them came, you know, almost [01:02:25] 20 odd people. And they did a they did a Spice Girls dance, you know, like they got in there. I [01:02:30] always ask for the entertainment. We have our own entertainment. We’ll find somebody. Um, and I [01:02:35] ask if any of our team want to do something, you know? So we have last two years, we’ve had a singer, [01:02:40] you know, really talented singers that work with us. And, um, and then [01:02:45] they wanted to do the Spice Girls routine, which I love it. You know, like, they just got involved and got in there. Um, so [01:02:50] it’s it’s cool.

Payman Langroudi: It takes a lot of emotional intelligence to have these ideas and sell it to people. [01:02:55] Did you get this from the news agents? Did you work there ever?

Kaival Patel: I didn’t [01:03:00] work as much as my sister, just for the record, because she always tells me off. Yeah. Um, I used to play a lot of [01:03:05] cricket when I was younger, so cricket used to be Saturdays and Saturdays. I used to, you know, my [01:03:10] dad would would go and take me to to cricket and these people skills.

Payman Langroudi: Did you always have them? Were [01:03:15] you that kid who was always good with people? Did you get it from one of these activities? Captaining [01:03:20] the cricket team? I don’t know.

Kaival Patel: I don’t know. Yeah, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe. It comes very naturally to you.

Kaival Patel: Well, [01:03:25] I’d say I’m one of these guys that generally vibe off other people. Yeah. You know, so [01:03:30] I think I’m listening to a podcast and that introvert. Extrovert, you know, like, if I’m in a really [01:03:35] loud environment with loads of people, I’ll shrink up and go in the corner. Oh, really? Yeah. So I’m. But [01:03:40] if I’m in, you know, if I’m feeling the vibe and I’m normally smaller groups, then I’m [01:03:45] really, you know, I feel that energy and I vibe off of it. So I [01:03:50] think sometimes you have to force it when obviously you’re the owner of a business and you have to be there injecting [01:03:55] that energy. Um, what’s your.

Payman Langroudi: Attitude to risk?

Kaival Patel: Sorry. I’m risky. [01:04:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You like to take risks?

Kaival Patel: I like taking the risk. That’s where Serena’s in there. So she’s not. [01:04:05] She’s not fully opposite. Fully.

Payman Langroudi: You need a balance, right? You need a balance.

Kaival Patel: And she’s. She’s the accountant’s [01:04:10] daughter, you know. She’ll she’ll risk assess. Probably less so now. But [01:04:15] right at the start, you know, she would do the cash flows of the businesses and say, look, how are we going [01:04:20] to make this work? You know, because we looked at lots of practices before the first few. How are we going to [01:04:25] make it work? Is it going to work? What happens if it does? And what are we going to do, you know, these sort of things. And [01:04:30] now she tends to sort of let me fly with it to a certain extent. Um, [01:04:35] but yeah, she’s the one that really sends checks a lot of things, you know, and, you know, [01:04:40] we wouldn’t be anywhere, really, without Serena doing that part of it, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [01:04:45] the Academy.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When did you have the thought that you were going to be [01:04:50] like a teaching institution? This is a different thing to being a practice.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:04:55] So I always liked that development side. Like I said, I used to get speakers in for our [01:05:00] own. So so even when we had a couple of practices and then it used to bug me, to be honest, [01:05:05] that everything’s in London or Manchester, even the courses I used to go to, you used to have to travel everywhere. [01:05:10] And I love the development side of it for for associates. I [01:05:15] literally love them, seeing them grow. You can see it in numbers. You can see it in confidence. You can [01:05:20] see it in just conversations that you end up having with them. And um, and I knew for, [01:05:25] you know, I knew I wanted to do something like that across the road from one of the practices, [01:05:30] the top floor of this room sort of came up.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve been there. Right? You’ve been there? Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So it used to [01:05:35] be just the storage room. Um, you know, you had these salmon pink sofas and random [01:05:40] things in there, and I thought, actually, this this is perfect space to have [01:05:45] an area for us. And the practice we have across the road is sort of utilised every nook and cranny. So, you know, team [01:05:50] meetings and these sort of things, we used to not have space for it. So let me get that. You know, we, [01:05:55] we created a sort of almost like a boardroom. Um, you’re a U-shaped, [01:06:00] you know, section. And then I thought, well, actually, let me, let [01:06:05] me see whether we used to have, you know, courses generally and other dentists around the area used [01:06:10] to, you know, want to come on there and these sort of things. So I said, well, actually, what [01:06:15] if we just designed a program from scratch where, where people can come and join us? The USP [01:06:20] was it was in Milton Keynes and it got blown out of the water because we had people from Ireland and all over [01:06:25] the place coming to it because the speaking, you know, the speakers were so good. I didn’t quite I [01:06:30] underestimated how much work it was to become accredited to, to be [01:06:35] able to, to, to give out a diploma. Um, but once we got that, you know, I really [01:06:40] I loved it. Um, and I’m really thankful, actually, because a lot of the speakers wouldn’t [01:06:45] have heard of us. You know, we I had to reach out to I firstly, I asked other [01:06:50] dentists in that sort of target audience, you know, who are the people that you’re speaking to [01:06:55] and these sort of things. Some of them I hadn’t necessarily heard of so much at that point, reached out to them, [01:07:00] email or Facebook and these sort of things. And these guys took a punt with us. You know, they [01:07:05] were like, well, we haven’t heard of you, but you’re looking to do the right things. We’re happy to speak [01:07:10] on this, this course and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Like who?

Kaival Patel: Nick Sethi, um, [01:07:15] even Milad.

Payman Langroudi: Um, singing dentist.

Kaival Patel: Singing dentist. Yeah. Um, she [01:07:20] has been on and jazz girl these are guys there. Um, Mitchell Patel and Jazz Gulati [01:07:25] and jazz. Yeah. And he was one of the actually the staunchest supporters at the start. He was so [01:07:30] positive. So, you know, he was just like, yeah, Kevin, just you could do it. Let me help you out. We’ll get people on. [01:07:35] He is.

Payman Langroudi: A great, great guy.

Kaival Patel: Man. Really great guy. And just his energy his infectious. Right. This is what [01:07:40] I mean. Like if I’m in a room with him, I’m suddenly bouncing around because I’m just vibing.

Payman Langroudi: With these, like, one day courses, one, [01:07:45] one event, one evening courses, or like, how did it start and how did it evolve? [01:07:50]

Kaival Patel: No. So so I always had the plan that it’s going to be a year long program. Yeah. Um, [01:07:55] but you can attend each individual course if you want. If you want to. Yeah. But if you want the diploma, [01:08:00] it’s a year long program.

Payman Langroudi: So eight.

Kaival Patel: So there’s 13 courses.

Payman Langroudi: 13 days in the [01:08:05] year.

Kaival Patel: 13 days in the year. Yeah. 14 days, 13 of course, is one of the courses is two days.

Payman Langroudi: And the [01:08:10] sort of the angle of the diploma is what? What is it? How do you what’s the kind of USP of that diploma over [01:08:15] a different.

[TRANSITION]: I mean it’s.

Kaival Patel: Similar to the other ones. The main essence is you’re [01:08:20] just getting good quality education in, in, in a bit of a smaller space. So [01:08:25] it’s quite one on one. The control you get that, that element of it, you feel part of it. I [01:08:30] wanted to create that little community from the delegates as well, where they can share cases and in a safe space [01:08:35] and, and these sort of things. And it’s just for me, it’s the best speakers or some of the best speakers in the [01:08:40] country, and they’re here and they’re in Milton Keynes, and they’re able to teach and train you. And we wanted [01:08:45] to tie it all up into a diploma. And you get something behind attending these [01:08:50] courses, and, you know, the letters after your name and these sort of things. There’s the kudos of it all. But [01:08:55] actually it’s just hands on, you know, like being able to utilise the skills that you learn on Monday [01:09:00] morning. You know, so many times I’ve been on courses, it’s been six months, I’ve not used anything. You know, [01:09:05] we really pushed them to utilise those skills to do it. And and again, [01:09:10] I’ve seen guys that most of the delegates now are probably not our own dentists. They’re [01:09:15] they’re others from all over the place. And, and I see their confidence develop, you know, as [01:09:20] they’re going on. Absolutely. Love it. You know and and when they’re leaving the course and they’re giving me a hug and saying, [01:09:25] thank you so much. You know, you’ve you’ve really improved my sort of, you know, my confidence. It’s not necessarily [01:09:30] that they won’t say clinical skills so much. It will be my confidence because that’s all related to to to learning. [01:09:35]

Payman Langroudi: You teach on it yourself.

Kaival Patel: No I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry.

Kaival Patel: No middlemen. No [01:09:40] no I don’t one I think I [01:09:45] think it’s a bit of imposter syndrome with a lot of the things. But the clinical side, I knew I wasn’t the best [01:09:50] dentist, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But surely there’s a non-clinical piece that you could have taught.

Kaival Patel: So [01:09:55] I’m going to develop that, um, which is a business and management course, um, which, [01:10:00] which will be happening later in the year.

Payman Langroudi: Even on even on Mini smile Makeover, we have a marketing lecture. [01:10:05] Yeah, yeah. I think it’s important. I think it’s important. Part of call it educate patient [01:10:10] education, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s important that the non-clinical side [01:10:15] of it is the bit we don’t get taught at all.

[TRANSITION]: We don’t get taught.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. And you’re a master at it. [01:10:20]

Kaival Patel: I don’t think I am, but.

Payman Langroudi: It should have been. It should have been like 14 days or whatever, you know, 12.5 days, [01:10:25] but. But one of them or half a day, something talking about that side of it. Or you should definitely [01:10:30] do it now going forward.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. So I think we’re going to start this sort of business and management course towards [01:10:35] the end of the year. I need to I’ve got the the framework in my mind. [01:10:40] I just need to make sure that we’re, we’re, we’re going to market it in the right way and you know, and [01:10:45] actually have it beneficial for, for people, you know, whereas business owners or researchers want [01:10:50] to take the leap or people that are one one business and looking to scale up and, and these sort of things, [01:10:55] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Look, you know, I’m a massive fan of yours. Yeah. You know that. Yeah. Um.

Kaival Patel: What’s the. But [01:11:00] heck.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’m a massive fan of yours, man. And like I say, you [01:11:05] seem to carry things off very, like, flawlessly and sort [01:11:10] of effortlessly. And it’s just lovely to see a nice guy doing that. I love that. But [01:11:15] there is always in these stories, a darker side. [01:11:20]

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say darkest day in this journey?

Kaival Patel: Darkest [01:11:25] day?

Payman Langroudi: Well, some of them, you know.

Kaival Patel: I [01:11:30] think what I started off with in terms of, you know, easing [01:11:35] our way into practice ownership and, and the stresses that we had there. I’ve [01:11:40] had, um, I think we’ve had [01:11:45] associates or an associate who was the owner of a business or one of the practices [01:11:50] who left. And they were going through a divorce [01:11:55] at the time. And they said to me, look, I want to leave, but, [01:12:00] Um, I want to try and come back to the area before your [01:12:05] restrictions sort of time piece goes and, you know, they’ll be absolutely fine [01:12:10] with it. And, you know, they’ve supported the business all this time, and they sort of came back as soon as they came back, [01:12:15] there was mass marketing to go and grab their grab the patients back on a really [01:12:20] existing Dem plan list. And, and I felt like a complete wally because I just took it on good [01:12:25] faith. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That, um, that, you know, you’re going to do this, you’re [01:12:30] going to come back, you’ve got to rebuild your life because of everything you’re going through. Um, darkest day was Covid [01:12:35] the day.

Payman Langroudi: In private practice.

Kaival Patel: Right? Yeah. The day where I remember [01:12:40] we were in the waiting room of of Oxford House. And again, we had the only the two sides then [01:12:45] and um, and the announcement came on TV and I [01:12:50] had the team around me, and the announcement came on TV that everything needs to closed down. There was no discussion [01:12:55] of furlough and all these sort of things. And I just cried, you know, like I couldn’t [01:13:00] really, I needed to I should have just stayed bloody strong for the team and everything. But I had this realisation [01:13:05] that all of these guys lives and dependents are dependent on this business. How [01:13:10] are we going to help support them? Everything was going on at the same time and that was [01:13:15] a dark day. Um, and yeah, I think, I think that that [01:13:20] must be the. Yeah, that’s the bit where I feel the emotion now. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:13:25] remember the team coming in. Yeah. Like our videographer guy, he came [01:13:30] in and he said, yeah, I lived with two other people. Both of them just lost their jobs, and they’re heading back [01:13:35] to Italy. Um, how’s my job? You know, like, he came in [01:13:40] like that. That was his opening statement. Yeah. On that day that we said we’re going to close everything [01:13:45] down. Welcome. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: See you.

Payman Langroudi: What about. We [01:13:50] like to talk about errors.

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um. You know, because because because your [01:13:55] story is so beautiful and all that. I kind of want these this side to be equally painful. [01:14:00] Okay.

Kaival Patel: I’ll see what I can do.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical errors. Business errors.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. [01:14:05]

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind?

Kaival Patel: Business error. I think it was. Was that one that one, uh, clinical [01:14:10] error. It’s hard because I’m not that you know, obviously it’s been a while since I’ve done the clinical [01:14:15] side of it, but three years. Yeah, but the, the bit I, I [01:14:20] remember well, like it was yesterday was this, it was my first full [01:14:25] arch implant case.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. All on four type thing.

Kaival Patel: All on it was.

Payman Langroudi: 6 or [01:14:30] 6.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and I sort of was prepped and ready to, [01:14:35] to, to do it. And so I’ve done the surgical side of it and I was taking the, the [01:14:40] impression for, for probably the temporary work or it might have even been the final work. Um, [01:14:45] and it was a, you know, an open tray impression. So, so the, the [01:14:50] and now this is a patient that was Uber nervous. Obviously they [01:14:55] were, they used to we’d sedated her for the first part of it, just because she was so [01:15:00] nervous with generally everything, and she had a massive gag reflex. So I was always a bit, a little bit shaking it with [01:15:05] this impression. And it was pretty much right at that point. Did the party [01:15:10] and I forgot to, to, uh, to take out the, uh, the post. [01:15:15] Yeah, yeah. Around it. So in effect.

Payman Langroudi: It was all stuck.

Kaival Patel: It’s all stuck. She’s [01:15:20] she’s there. She can see that. I’m sort of sweating thinking I can’t access these posts. [01:15:25] So the only way I can get into it is to drill the, the putty.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:15:30] tray, the.

Kaival Patel: Putty. But she’s. Her biggest fear was the sound of the drill, you know, [01:15:35] that’s why she was.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she was a nervous patient.

Kaival Patel: Nervous patient. Really nervous patient. So I’m there [01:15:40] trying to drill. Everything’s flying out everywhere. She. She kept getting up every two seconds because [01:15:45] she just couldn’t, you know, hack it. Um, and then I ended up [01:15:50] having to, like, section, basically this thing a complete moron, you know, completely.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine the mess [01:15:55] that was made, their.

Kaival Patel: Mess. And it was stress because she was. So when your patient [01:16:00] is anxious, you’re anxious, you know, a little bit inside yourself. There’s saliva everywhere. She was pretty [01:16:05] much vomiting. And yeah, it was it was horrendous. And then gradually ended [01:16:10] up. And also for this is the one patient you do everything happens right. I didn’t insert the [01:16:15] anything into the access holes as well for some reason I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: So they got clogged up.

Kaival Patel: They were clogged [01:16:20] up with this. There’s two millimetre holes that I’m trying to drill out. The, [01:16:25] you know, everything in there at the same time. And, um. Yeah. So that’s [01:16:30] the bit where I, you know, what happened?

Payman Langroudi: What happened? Was she cool in the end or.

Kaival Patel: She [01:16:35] she wasn’t. No. She was like completely freaked out afterwards. Took everything [01:16:40] out in the end. I said, look, do you want me? I’m obviously running now, you know, incredibly [01:16:45] late for everything else. And I said, look, I’m happy to try it again [01:16:50] now. Or should we just take a breather and come back in another day and I’ll do the rest for you. [01:16:55] And she wanted it another day. And actually the other day she was fine. She was cool. And [01:17:00] she she understood it. And, uh, I can’t say we laughed about it together [01:17:05] afterwards, but we were okay. We got it done and the end result was good.

Payman Langroudi: So did you take the blame? [01:17:10]

Kaival Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You said I have made an error here.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:17:15] she was.

Kaival Patel: Cool. There’s nobody else you can blame in that.

Payman Langroudi: But she was cool with that.

Kaival Patel: She, she got [01:17:20] it. You know, she, she, she understood it and she didn’t really care to be honest. Like [01:17:25] in terms of whether it’s my blame or anybody else’s blame or whatever else, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A juicy one. It’s a juicy one. [01:17:30] I think I’m going to accept that. I think I’m going to accept that sometimes I don’t accept them when the [01:17:35] outcome is so happy.

Kaival Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it wasn’t that happy. Yeah, sometimes.

Kaival Patel: I get sued.

Payman Langroudi: So sometimes I [01:17:40] want an unhappy outcome. Like I’m not even talking about being sued. I’m talking about, you know, trust was lost. [01:17:45] Okay. You know, that kind of. But I’m good. I’m going to accept that.

Kaival Patel: Thanks. I appreciate it.

Payman Langroudi: Mainly [01:17:50] because we’ve come to the end of our time. Otherwise I would have sweated you a bit more. [01:17:55] No, I want to talk a little bit around your final questions. [01:18:00] Um. Fantasy dinner party. Three [01:18:05] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Kaival Patel: It’s [01:18:10] a really hard one. I’m guessing that’s why you have it as the. The last one’s there to actually, like, [01:18:15] pick pick three. The first person would be my grandma [01:18:20] who’s who’s passed away. And, um, what.

Payman Langroudi: Was your relationship like with [01:18:25] her?

Kaival Patel: So, like I said, dad had seven other siblings.

Payman Langroudi: But the matriarch, the she was the [01:18:30] linchpin.

Kaival Patel: She was the linchpin.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: Yeah, yeah. She was the linchpin and really strong lady. Really emotional, [01:18:35] but but strong lady. And she lived with us whilst I was young. So really fortunate [01:18:40] in the UK, lived with with my family specifically for a long period of time, but especially when [01:18:45] I was growing up. So she was the one that when I came home she’d have a cup of tea ready for me. She [01:18:50] understood very little English, but she knew everything that was going on with Home and Away and Neighbours. Somehow [01:18:55] when we used to get, she’d tell me exactly what’s happened when.

Payman Langroudi: Neighbours brought back memories. Yeah. [01:19:00]

Kaival Patel: So, um, and towards the latter part of her life, [01:19:05] she, um, she had dementia, you know, like quite, quite severe dementia. And [01:19:10] that was the part where everything started happening for us. So we, I got married, [01:19:15] had kids, had the practices. And, you know, I’d love her to be on that table to all [01:19:20] of that. Yeah. My, my Gujarati is terrible. So probably now it’s good. Actually, I’ve got Google Translate. [01:19:25] I can probably tell it properly, but when she lived with us, it was a lot better because that’s the only way we could [01:19:30] communicate. But I’d love her to be there and just for her to see the grandkids. And [01:19:35] and she always had this thing where she’d say, wherever your wishes [01:19:40] go and fulfil it. You know, in Gujarati, you know, my mum and dad might joke about [01:19:45] something and they’ll call me a dumbass or something like that. And she she would completely, you know, stop [01:19:50] them, you know, and just say, no, he’s not you know, he’s going to he’s going to do it. And [01:19:55] you know, I grew up with, with with her, you know, mom and dad are exceptional. But [01:20:00] she she literally was was that person so amazing. She’s person one. Person [01:20:05] two would be, um, I love cricket. [01:20:10] And I was thinking, you know, who could we have from from the sort of cricketing side [01:20:15] of things. And I love India. There’s Sachin Tendulkar, but the person that [01:20:20] I’d have there is a guy called Ms. Dhoni who was Indian captain for a while, [01:20:25] and I’d have him because he wasn’t necessarily the best player, [01:20:30] but he was a great leader, you know, and he managed to lead these these, you know, the [01:20:35] Indian team that won the World Cup and these sort of things. And I just love he had a lot of divas [01:20:40] and, you know big stars in the team. And he managed to gel these guys together and still come out [01:20:45] looking as cool as, as anything.

Payman Langroudi: Do you still play?

Kaival Patel: No, no, I don’t play anymore. [01:20:50] So both of my boys have have started playing now. And, you know, [01:20:55] my my dream will be to have at least one match where I played in the father son [01:21:00] match last year with, with one of them. And I was sore for about three weeks afterwards. It’s [01:21:05] just. But I want to become fit, actually. My big aim for this [01:21:10] year is actually to become fitter and be able to do just just 1 or 2 games with them, and [01:21:15] I loved it. Yeah, I used to love it. Um, so yeah, I’d have msdhoni. [01:21:20] And then the final person is a chap called Mo Gawdat, so. [01:21:25]

Payman Langroudi: I know Mo.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. And he was, he was sort of a chief business officer [01:21:30] with Google X. He’s done some out there things more recently. But [01:21:35] one, one of his, you know, earlier books was was the equation of happiness. [01:21:40] We talked about it earlier.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And he lost his son Ali. Um, [01:21:45] you know, when when his son was young and, you know, one of the things you shouldn’t ever have to bury [01:21:50] your your children. Yeah, but he he pivoted at that point, and [01:21:55] he sort of tried to work out the equation on happiness, you know, um, and [01:22:00] super smart.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re right that normally those super smart guys aren’t spiritual in [01:22:05] the way that he is. But I’m a massive fan of the podcast Slow Mo. [01:22:10] Yeah, but I kind of go into these phases of I listen to like nine of them in a row, and then [01:22:15] I come out of it and then like when I go back to that podcast quite a lot, you know, like it’s on a [01:22:20] plane or something. Yeah. It’s weird. I don’t have it. Like during my day to day.

Kaival Patel: It really hit me, [01:22:25] you know, like and.

Payman Langroudi: He’s brilliant.

Kaival Patel: He’s brilliant. The way he speaks is brilliant. And I [01:22:30] think just. It was the first time really, I got into thinking about that happiness side of things. [01:22:35] You know, everything was just all the go all the time and and actually what [01:22:40] is everything for, you know, what is everything for, you know. So I think [01:22:45] that was a you know, I’d love to have him there and just pick his brains on the happiness side of [01:22:50] things. I think I’m constantly striving to to feel that contentment and, and, [01:22:55] you know, hopefully having him on the dinner table, I can bust his brains and, and [01:23:00] figure out, you know, some of some tips and tricks to, to get there.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in the same way as people have [01:23:05] personal trainers in the, in the gym, you know, there is there is space, there is it’s [01:23:10] important here to look at like therapy in a way that is like that, [01:23:15] like an optimisation. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: So so we had somebody recently I got from my [01:23:20] group. Oh really? Her name is Maya Raichura and she works on mental fitness and [01:23:25] it was much nicer.

Payman Langroudi: Way of looking at it, isn’t it? Mental fitness.

Kaival Patel: Visualisation and mental fitness [01:23:30] and actually getting her in and just having that, that session on it, you know, um, [01:23:35] it’s really important and it’s really valuable tools just to visualise that, you know, again, it’s one [01:23:40] of these things where some people think it’s a bit fluffy and whatever.

Payman Langroudi: No, listen. There is. There is a deficit. [01:23:45] Yeah, there is a deficit. I try and fill that deficit with food. Yeah, all the [01:23:50] time. Yeah, I try and fill that deficit with fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With ambition. [01:23:55] With all. But there is a deficit. Yeah, yeah. And if we if you can get back [01:24:00] to that deficit and say, hey. Okay. That’s all right. Whatever that is, that is [01:24:05] it. You thought you would never amount to something, or we had a revolution and ran away [01:24:10] or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. I haven’t done the work myself to know. Right. But there’s definitely a deficit. Yeah [01:24:15] yeah yeah yeah yeah. But everyone has it. Everyone has [01:24:20] it. Yeah. Like, you know, there’s hardly anyone who’s so perfect. And so, you know, we [01:24:25] could. It’s just like. It’s like a personal trainer in the gym. Yeah. Even the guy who goes to the gym every day sometimes [01:24:30] uses a personal trainer. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting you got that for your team? Yeah. Do they appreciate it?

Kaival Patel: Yeah, [01:24:35] I think they did. I think they did. Again, it’s different. It’s a bit different. But I wanted to focus [01:24:40] on like January for me is this hangover month? Generally in business, you know you have [01:24:45] Christmas. It’s always really busy and I wanted January to be ignition time for the team, right? So if [01:24:50] not everybody, there was only maybe 20 of our team there. And the morning was, um, [01:24:55] some clinical stuff. And then the afternoon was this. And the people that [01:25:00] really took it on board, you could see that, you know, when they when they left the room, their shoulders were, [01:25:05] were their, you know, their head was up high and they felt that. And some people didn’t quite get it in that [01:25:10] in that period of time. But then you can’t train that in a half a day.

Payman Langroudi: It is about you that makes [01:25:15] you like that, that turns you on so much.

Kaival Patel: I don’t know. [01:25:20] I don’t know. I enjoy that. You know, maybe it’s like a pleaser part of it, you know, like, [01:25:25] it could be that side of it.

Payman Langroudi: What about the being different piece? Why that? Have [01:25:30] you always been that?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. I don’t see it as being different. You know, you [01:25:35] like me.

Payman Langroudi: No. You do. You said. You said that. You know, we got the referral centre. We want to do something different, [01:25:40] you know, like.

Kaival Patel: For getting people out there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kaival Patel: It’s fun to me. It’s fun to [01:25:45] me, you know, just something, something adventure. Something out there. That’s [01:25:50] the bit that does.

Payman Langroudi: Are you.

Kaival Patel: Easily.

Payman Langroudi: Bored?

Kaival Patel: Like like.

Payman Langroudi: I am. I’m easily bored. Not necessarily by [01:25:55] like actually I am by projects as well. But I just basically go everywhere, wherever I go. I feel like this [01:26:00] could have been so much better than, like a bad judge of places.

Kaival Patel: You’re [01:26:05] that guy, Payman. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, and so if that’s the case, then [01:26:10] it’s exciting to make the thing better, right? Than.

Kaival Patel: Well, I’ll go to places and I’ll [01:26:15] see. Could that thing fit into what we do, you know, like. Yeah. Is that a bit, you [01:26:20] know, that’s that’s something cool or that’s a nice social media trend or whatever else. Can we do something similar [01:26:25] to it?

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about Ken, you know, uh, Ken Finlayson. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: Fmc yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I [01:26:30] talked to him quite a lot. And you know, he’s much of what he did was bringing stuff from other industries [01:26:35] into dentistry, you know. Awards the top 50 that were directly out of the [01:26:40] The Times Top 50 list. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: It’s clever though, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, his [01:26:45] execution is amazing. Don’t get me wrong. Yeah. But but his his sort of genius [01:26:50] often was bringing stuff from other industries in. And you’re right, it’s one of the best [01:26:55] things you can do.

Kaival Patel: Yeah. But dentistry is so isolated. So actually, like I said, when we were [01:27:00] on that programme, there’s lots of different businesses. Actually businesses, all business is all very similar, [01:27:05] you know. So actually you can pull in different things.

Payman Langroudi: And what the bank said to [01:27:10] you, do you want to join the programme. Is that how did you get onto that programme?

Kaival Patel: It was on a whim and it changed [01:27:15] our life quite considerably. But Trina literally said, there’s this programme. It’s for, you know, entrepreneurs, [01:27:20] um, like.

Payman Langroudi: An accelerator thing.

Kaival Patel: Accelerator. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And she goes, I’m going to apply. [01:27:25] I said, okay, fine, apply. And then she applied and we had an interview to, to sort of get into it. We [01:27:30] went into it and I loved it. You know, I absolutely loved it.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when people say to me, [01:27:35] hey, I want to do some toothpaste, or hey, I want to do that. I normally now just off outsource to [01:27:40] just go join an accelerator, okay. Yeah. Because, because because you know, it’s you’ll be you’ll [01:27:45] figure it out whether you want to do that or not once you’re in this accelerator. Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And it was different. We [01:27:50] were we were already a little bit established, whereas a lot of these guys were Start-Ups. But it was the energy. [01:27:55] It was the energy that I loved. I loved the Start-Up energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, whereas for us. And that [01:28:00] just just got us going, you know, a little bit more and and again, if when you’re just in Dental world, [01:28:05] you only think in Dental ways. So I actually want to go on something which [01:28:10] is completely external now and just again, just pick on really smart people in their minds [01:28:15] and different, different businesses to see what Drew’s.

Payman Langroudi: Going to a conference in September [01:28:20] in in Norway somewhere. Okay. It’s like a growth summit. [01:28:25] Business growth summit or something. Yeah. And it looked I figured, you know, he’s probably done his [01:28:30] research.

Kaival Patel: He’d know. He’d know. It’s good. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Kaival Patel: And in his he’s mine. He’s ours. And [01:28:35] he’s he’s like, you know, 20, 20 times more. Just going to he’ll message me sometimes [01:28:40] and he’s got so many different things going on. But yeah, I think I think those things are invaluable really. [01:28:45] And it’s worth a go. What are you going to lose? Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: No, it’ll be fun.

Kaival Patel: It’ll be fun. Yeah. [01:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah. It’s deathbed.

Kaival Patel: Deathbed.

Payman Langroudi: Surrounded [01:28:55] by your loved ones many years from now. What are three pieces of advice [01:29:00] you’d leave them in the world?

Kaival Patel: Advice [01:29:05] for my children. For [01:29:10] people. It’s [01:29:15] a hard one, really. Honestly, when I. When I think of my children and think of me on the deathbed, [01:29:20] I want them to be happy. Everybody does right? I want them to be financially secure [01:29:25] the way my parents used to for us. And, you know, maybe we [01:29:30] didn’t discuss it so much earlier, but when we first got the practice, we were living paycheque to paycheque, you know, and [01:29:35] that was really scary times. And sometimes you need to go through [01:29:40] it to appreciate other stuff. But I want them to value money, [01:29:45] value their life, you know, go and try things. Hopefully [01:29:50] the position that I’m really hoping that we put them in is a little bit of a platform where they [01:29:55] can try things and not be worried about failing.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Kaival Patel: They? Nine. Seven [01:30:00] and two. Nine, seven and two.

Payman Langroudi: Would you want them to be dentists?

Kaival Patel: Not [01:30:05] bothered. I’m not bothered. You know, the two boys, the nine year old and seven year [01:30:10] old. They want to open an ice cream shop together. That’s. That’s their.

Payman Langroudi: Thing.

Kaival Patel: So, um, there’s [01:30:15] a there’s a chap in Milton Keynes who owns a sort of ice cream making factory, [01:30:20] and I think Serena was talking to somebody about it, and it happened to be him, and [01:30:25] he invited them over. So they created their own ice cream and all. This is so nice. But They [01:30:30] want to work together at this point, so we’ll see whether that works out.

Payman Langroudi: But how cool is that?

Kaival Patel: But you know and [01:30:35] that’s of their own. They’ve probably seen us do whatever we do. And whereas in when [01:30:40] I was growing up it was doctor dentist, you know, do something like that. So I think [01:30:45] if you’re going to do whatever you’re going to do, love it. You know. So my sister, she did pharmacy [01:30:50] and she ended up turning to interior designing because she just didn’t like pharmacy. [01:30:55] And she’s an amazing interior designer. And that was her talent, you know. So I don’t want to force them to do anything, [01:31:00] but I also don’t want them to waste any opportunity that that they get. So just and [01:31:05] just work hard, you know, work hard. I think a lot of people see practice ownership and [01:31:10] suddenly, you know, it’s that old cliche. It took 20 years to be an overnight success, you know, but [01:31:15] they don’t realise the hours that you need to do to, to get maybe the lifestyle that you get or that flexibility. [01:31:20] You’ve got to work bloody hard, you know, and work every hour that God gives you in that time, you know. Yes. [01:31:25] It might not help with burnout and these sort of things, but you got to work hard. So I think [01:31:30] work hard. You know, take the opportunities that you’re given. And, [01:31:35] um. And I just want them to be, you know, secure, really, and happy. Just [01:31:40] be happy.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But let’s introduce another one. Yeah. Go on. What’s one thing that you would tell them to do that you didn’t do? Like [01:31:45] something you regret you didn’t do in your life?

Kaival Patel: Something [01:31:50] I regret that I didn’t do.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that question can be really taken in two ways. Yeah, [01:31:55] it’s I did this. It worked for me. I was kind to be kind, you know.

Kaival Patel: Mhm. [01:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: Or it can go another way. You could say I didn’t enlightened for instance. [01:32:05] Yeah. I didn’t take on finance. Outside finance. Right. And if my [01:32:10] son did a business I’d say take outside finance. Yeah. Life wise what would you [01:32:15] say. What’s what’s the thing that you you wish you’d done or you wished you will do in the future? I think go to the gym. [01:32:20] Right?

Kaival Patel: Yeah. Yeah. So I think health is important, right? Health is important. I’ve hit 40. [01:32:25] And, you know, there’s a lot of things now which I wish I had done health wise, that that [01:32:30] would improve my life going forward. You know, we hopefully have a, you know, more comfortable life. And, [01:32:35] you know, the aim is whenever we retire and doing all those things. But actually, if I don’t have [01:32:40] my health, all the things that we’ve sort of gone into, I’m not going to enjoy that time with, with people. [01:32:45] So yeah, you’re absolutely right. Health. Health. And also again, it’s it’s make [01:32:50] mistakes quickly.

Payman Langroudi: And they’d be worried about.

Kaival Patel: Don’t be worried about it. You know make it quickly. You know [01:32:55] I think people are going to do it. You’re going to learn lots of things and don’t regret any [01:33:00] mistakes that you make. You know, people have this, especially if you’re a bit negative mindset. You [01:33:05] just dwell on the mistake that you made for ten years and you’ve suddenly stopped you going forward. So yeah, you’ve [01:33:10] made it. So what?

Payman Langroudi: You’re going forward but facing backwards, right? So you end up hitting your head on the lamppost. [01:33:15] Yeah. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: I like that. I might have to steal that one though.

Kaival Patel: But [01:33:20] but it’s absolutely that. So yeah. Look forward be positive and [01:33:25] um, and make mistakes quickly if you’re going to make them.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive pleasure. I’ve [01:33:30] always loved spending time with you. You can always, always learn with you, but particularly in [01:33:35] this context. So thanks. Thanks so much for coming on.

Kaival Patel: I really appreciate you having me on. Thanks, man. [01:33:40]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:33:45] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:33:50] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:33:55] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this [01:34:00] far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for [01:34:05] actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m [01:34:10] assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:34:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it [01:34:20] too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Today [00:00:25] we have a guest whose story is the definition of transformation. Jacqueline Hurst is one of the UK’s [00:00:30] leading life coaches, a mindset expert and the author of the powerful [00:00:35] book How to Do You. But before she became the woman inspiring [00:00:40] thousands, she was fighting some of the darkest battles addiction, anorexia and self-destruction. [00:00:45] Her journey took her from rock bottom to becoming a force of change, helping people break [00:00:50] free from limiting beliefs and taking control of their minds. Jacqueline’s no [00:00:55] nonsense, straight talking approach to mindset works, cuts through the fluff and gets to [00:01:00] the real stuff the way that we think. The way that we feel and how we can shift both to live [00:01:05] the lives that we actually want. Today we are diving into it. All the struggles, [00:01:10] the turning points, and the tools that can help you take back control of your own mind. So, Jacqueline, welcome to [00:01:15] Mind Movies. As I was just describing, the reason why I came across this incredible guest is because [00:01:20] I was sent her book and I found it so empowering [00:01:25] and actually challenging at times as well, because it allowed me to challenge my own thought processes. [00:01:30] I’m a massive self-development junkie, so it was right up my alley. But [00:01:35] I’m so excited to have you. Thank you for being here.

Jaqueline Hurst: Thank you for having me.

Rhona Eskander: So I [00:01:40] always like to start from the beginning, and we know that your journey has been incredibly raw [00:01:45] and real. And before we get into the mindset work, can you take us back to the beginning? What was life [00:01:50] like before you changed everything?

Jaqueline Hurst: Gosh, it’s, um, it’s a it’s always [00:01:55] quite a tough question. That one it reminds me of when I wrote my book and, um, I’d written [00:02:00] everything together and my publisher said to me, right now we need a chapter on you. And I was like, don’t be silly. Nobody [00:02:05] needs that. And he’s like, no, no, we need that because we want to know that a, you know what you’re talking [00:02:10] about. And B, how you got where you got to to give us advice. Why would we, you know, why would we [00:02:15] care what you have to tell us your story. And I always find that part and I should probably [00:02:20] look into this myself of the why. But I always find that part really. Um, I still [00:02:25] feel quite touched by the the process of the journey for myself. And I also understand [00:02:30] that it was all working perfectly, which is a big you know, it’s a big thing I still [00:02:35] think about today how things are working perfectly, whether we think they are at the time or whether [00:02:40] we don’t. There’s always this bigger picture. So my journey started really when I was much, much [00:02:45] younger. Um, I looked like on the outside I had this beautiful, wonderful life. [00:02:50] Um, and actually behind closed doors, things were very difficult. Um, I had parents [00:02:55] that went off, um, to America, uh, from when I was ten [00:03:00] years old. They would go off for months at a time, and we were left pretty much on our own to [00:03:05] sort of learn how to, in their words, be independent. And, um, it was [00:03:10] a tough experience for me. Um, I had to learn very quickly to always sort [00:03:15] of portray I was okay.

Jaqueline Hurst: I never wanted to let anybody down. I was always fine when, [00:03:20] you know, they called and everything when actually behind the scenes, it wasn’t that at all. I was being bullied very badly [00:03:25] at school. I had no friends. Um, I got into the wrong crowds, and then [00:03:30] I got into drugs, alcohol, anorexia, all of those things from a very young age of around 15. [00:03:35] So from the age of 15 to 25, um, my life was a shambles, a [00:03:40] total mess, you know, Class A’s, um, whatever I could use [00:03:45] to take myself away from myself. I got into, you know, crazy situations. I’m [00:03:50] very lucky to still be alive. Um, that’s a snapshot of that at 25. [00:03:55] I had a moment of deciding that, you know, I tried suicide [00:04:00] 3 or 4 times. I’d got to a point where it was like, I can’t go any lower, right? [00:04:05] Like, there has to be something different. And, um, I was sort [00:04:10] of lucky I got given this sort of gift of desperation, we call it. And it was it was [00:04:15] a total and utter breakdown. And from that space, every, every day, from [00:04:20] that space, I’ve. I’ve changed and grown and, you know, changed, turned my, my life around, got clean, [00:04:25] got sober, got well with my food and my body image and my eating disorders. Got [00:04:30] through all of my addictions. And, um, I’m coming to my 22nd year clean, [00:04:35] actually. Now. Thank you. So, yeah, through that process, all of that, um, that was how it all [00:04:40] started, basically. But through that process, it’s literally person A and person B today. [00:04:45]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. That’s amazing. Do you think. And I’m also like very mindful [00:04:50] not to blame parents because I think that our parents did [00:04:55] the best that they could with the knowledge that they had at the time. But with emerging [00:05:00] research and psychiatrists really studying attachment and attachment [00:05:05] styles, I think the presence of parents at pivotal [00:05:10] growth points is really important to our development. Do [00:05:15] you think in some way, without attaching blame to your parents, that that [00:05:20] sense of abandonment perhaps triggered you to make some of the decisions [00:05:25] that you did?

Jaqueline Hurst: I definitely think that’s a really great topic, and I’m really glad you brought that up. We [00:05:30] are starting off with we’re in a society at the moment where you know, your parents are toxic, [00:05:35] don’t speak to them, blah, blah. You know, we’re in a really interesting space with all of [00:05:40] that. For me personally, I come from a space of it’s all happening how it’s [00:05:45] meant to be happening. And that’s ultimately, if they knew better, they would [00:05:50] do better. And so they didn’t know better. So one can either stand around [00:05:55] and hold anger and frustration and hatred and, you know, pain towards them, or [00:06:00] you can do your work, go into coaching, understand it, unravel it, and [00:06:05] have complete peace around that space. So it’s a really important thing to say. So [00:06:10] for me, there is no blame at all around my parents. They absolutely did [00:06:15] the best they could with what they had, which isn’t what I’ve got and isn’t what many people have got. But that generation [00:06:20] also was very, very different. And look what they had learned from. Right? And it goes [00:06:25] backwards and backwards.

Jaqueline Hurst: So I would start off with that conversation. I think that [00:06:30] childhood development is a really important topic of conversation. And I also think that [00:06:35] parents, you know, can also over give to their children where they can suffocate their children and that [00:06:40] can cause problems. So there’s a million things that could cause somebody to go [00:06:45] the route I went through. And two, it could we could say yes, it was abandonment. [00:06:50] And it was, you know, a failure of this part and that part. But that was my journey, and that was how it was [00:06:55] meant to be. And I don’t think that parenting comes with a handbook, and I don’t [00:07:00] think I think parents tried the best they can with and do with what they’ve got, ideally. My personal opinion [00:07:05] is if you have kids, bring your kids up, be available, love them. They [00:07:10] don’t have to have things all the time. They just have to know that they’re loved and that there’s someone there that they can talk [00:07:15] to. That’s a really important thing to do if you’re going to have kids. But, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Have you [00:07:20] got kids?

Jaqueline Hurst: I haven’t got kids. I couldn’t have children. I got told that very young in my 20s. [00:07:25] I actually couldn’t have kids.

Rhona Eskander: And was that because of any medical implications of [00:07:30] what your body had been through, or was that just.

Jaqueline Hurst: I don’t know if the medical implications were part of me not [00:07:35] having kids. I just got told I couldn’t have them. It was going to be like basically impossible. And [00:07:40] again, it was another experience for me. And it’s not actually something that I talk about. So that’s, you know, not [00:07:45] that I’ve got anything to hide, but um, for me, that was sort of I was told, you need. This [00:07:50] is how it is now. I’m a I’m a super positive thinker. So I always believed if I really wanted to have [00:07:55] kids, there would be ways around that, right? You know, there’s adoption, um, etc. [00:08:00] etc. so my journey and my path didn’t take me down that route. But I do believe [00:08:05] that because I didn’t have children, I had this space to grow my business. And [00:08:10] I’ve worked with over 9000 clients now, and that has been so enlightening [00:08:15] for me. And I have really been able to give a lot, you know, through that process. So I feel very [00:08:20] grateful for that. And I’m never someone who lives in a, you know, if this is the fact and [00:08:25] this is what it is, I’ve got to find ways to think about that, to make myself feel all right about it. I’m never going to [00:08:30] be someone who sits in a victim mentality of like, this is terrible. My life’s over. You [00:08:35] know? You’ve got there’s a process to that, but you can’t stay in that forever.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think I think a lot of people [00:08:40] do. But there’s a few things that I want to unpack. First of all, either one of you seen adolescence?

Jaqueline Hurst: Not yet. [00:08:45]

Rhona Eskander: No, it is a masterpiece I really recommend, especially because you’re [00:08:50] in the space of like coaching and so forth, and there’s so much psychology and psychotherapy around it, I [00:08:55] won’t spoil it for you, but essentially it’s about a young boy that gets accused of [00:09:00] stabbing a young girl to death. And when you hear the producers and the writers, they said that, you know, the reason they [00:09:05] were inspired to write this story is because of what is going on in London, which is [00:09:10] very prevalent now. You know, you’ve got these young boys attacking young girls, and it’s [00:09:15] a lower class family up north, you know. And, you know, a loving kind of family from [00:09:20] Liverpool. And they cannot work out how their son turned out like this. [00:09:25] And it’s so, so powerful in so many senses. But talking [00:09:30] about the parenthood side, you would say that looking at them fine. They’re not the most well-off [00:09:35] family, but they were very emotionally available, I think, to the child. And obviously, when the [00:09:40] child is going through the justice and legal side of things, you see an episode [00:09:45] where the parents are like, I could have done better. I’m sorry I wasn’t there. I’m sorry I didn’t intervene. [00:09:50] And you know, one of the rises of violence and misogyny and young [00:09:55] boys is because of this manosphere and this toxic masculinity narrative and how young [00:10:00] boys are being let down. It’s absolutely fascinating. It’s really, really well done. But my [00:10:05] point is, it was interesting to see because as you said, you know, people [00:10:10] find it really easy to blame parents. And even in the show, you could see that the parents [00:10:15] were being tormented by the public because they were like, your son did this, it’s your fault. [00:10:20] It’s the parenting and so forth. But it’s really I think people really just do [00:10:25] the best that they can with the knowledge they have 100%. And I think it’s actually extremely toxic [00:10:30] that we blame parents for children.

Payman Langroudi: Leave blame out of it. I mean, the reason why I asked whether you’ve got kids [00:10:35] or not is that you must. Some of your clients, let’s say, who have got kids, do [00:10:40] they do people sometimes overcompensate for what the deficit that they think their parents [00:10:45] gave 100%.

Jaqueline Hurst: In fact, I was having a conversation like this with my sister recently. She has two children and you [00:10:50] know, she is the opposite of what we got brought up with. She is fully 180% [00:10:55] available for her children. And, you know, and that’s lovely in one way.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [00:11:00] too much.

Jaqueline Hurst: And it could possibly be too much in another way. So she’s having to learn how to balance [00:11:05] that. But again, you could be the most loving, wonderful, amazing parent doing everything you [00:11:10] possibly could. And your kids still might blame you for things, but you never this and but this [00:11:15] was too much. And so you know, this is why one has to learn how to step into, [00:11:20] which is what I teach clients your own emotional adulthood. You’ve got to unpack. Can I swear [00:11:25] because I yeah, of course, holding it back. But you got to unpack your shit, right? Because if you spend [00:11:30] your life blaming. My mom did this and my dad did that, and my ex husband did this, and my friend did that. [00:11:35] Like, you’re never going to grow and you’re never going to take responsibility for yourself. And ultimately you’re never going to be happy or [00:11:40] at peace.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I really agree with that because on the outside, like, my parents are amazing. Payman [00:11:45] had the pleasure of meeting them. They’re extremely emotionally available and kind, and we’re [00:11:50] there. They couldn’t be totally present with the schooling and stuff, because they were immigrants that were [00:11:55] working like three jobs at once to keep us in a private school, quite frankly. Yeah. And some people might be [00:12:00] like, you had a nanny because we had the nanny from the Middle East. I’m like, a nanny really didn’t affect me. Like, there [00:12:05] was so much judgement that I had a nanny, but that was the only way they could do it to make it work for [00:12:10] my system. However, what I would say is, is that I suffer with crippling [00:12:15] rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. I cannot.

Jaqueline Hurst: Sorry. Wait, what? What [00:12:20] is.

Rhona Eskander: Rejection sensitivity? Dysphoria? So I was a late diagnosed ADHD person [00:12:25] by my therapist. And so like I take rejection so badly. [00:12:30] You know, this like, beyond, like someone could make a passing comment and I will internalise [00:12:35] it and hate myself and go into this like.

Jaqueline Hurst: Deep really controversial with you.

Rhona Eskander: Here. [00:12:40] Yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: So one has to be really careful with labels. Okay. Just [00:12:45] putting it on the table here. When I was going through getting clean and getting sober and even [00:12:50] the hormonal issues, all of these things that I’ve had, people have always wanted to slap labels [00:12:55] on me. I mean, I could give you a list of 17 labels. People in white coats told me, you know, [00:13:00] I don’t mean literally white coats, but I mean doctors here and specialists there, right?

Payman Langroudi: They become self-fulfilling, [00:13:05] don’t they? In a way. Once you give yourself a label, you kind of live out that to it. Right.

Jaqueline Hurst: So I [00:13:10] this rejection thing, I would I would at some point love to clearly [00:13:15] not a podcast, but I would love to unpack that with you because I’m already I’m [00:13:20] going to say to you, I’m not sure I agree with that. And I think that many people suffer [00:13:25] with rejection, and rejection is a mind made thing.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:13:30] think the thing is, is like, look, I mean, Payman know me for a number of years now.

Payman Langroudi: She certainly is very, very sensitive to.

Rhona Eskander: Like. [00:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: Unexpectedly sensitive.

Rhona Eskander: Like, I can I can go someone will say something. Someone [00:13:40] said something to me on Sunday. A friend and she didn’t know what she [00:13:45] said had incredibly hurt me, and I just went into the shower afterwards and I was like, sobbing [00:13:50] for like an hour and a half.

Jaqueline Hurst: So, so mindset management. And again, this is really hard just to like unpack [00:13:55] this in one podcast because this is work that I do with my clients and it’s taken over like a series of sessions. But [00:14:00] I’m just going to drop this down here and you can disagree. And it’s cool. I will teach my clients [00:14:05] that when people say things or do things or act in certain ways or whatever, [00:14:10] whatever, actually how you think about that is what matters, [00:14:15] because we can’t control what that person said. How you’re interpreting that in your brain is what hurt [00:14:20] you. Totally not what she said.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. But that that gets me onto the point that I was saying about my [00:14:25] parents is that because of the certain things that my parents have brought [00:14:30] me up thinking, and on the outset, it’s like extremely loving. There is this kind [00:14:35] of confirmation bias that I’ve created in my head that’s like [00:14:40] this person has said that. And the way that I’m receiving the information internalising it is because of my kind [00:14:45] of core belief of what I’ve been brought up with. Right? So, for example, there [00:14:50] has been this aspect of I don’t want to say conditional love, but kind [00:14:55] of it’s like, again, like immigrant mentality. Like the more you achieve, the better that you are, the more [00:15:00] you’re loved. Okay. So that always has been like projected into every aspect of my life. [00:15:05] So when I hear someone say something negative, I’m like, they essentially [00:15:10] are saying I am not good enough because that is the way, right? That’s always like, that is everything. And I [00:15:15] understand that I have total awareness around that. And obviously it’s easier said than done whilst [00:15:20] I have done all the work and I can be like, this is not this is the way like and that’s why I’ve stopped, like [00:15:25] reacting when they say something, but sometimes it internally hurts. You know, I’m human. [00:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s like sometimes you’re thinking about it is one thing, but feeling it is a whole other thing.

Rhona Eskander: Correct. And I think [00:15:35] that I can be like the way that I’m processing this information may not be the way Jacqueline [00:15:40] or Payman is processing the information.

Payman Langroudi: Because you’re planning kids soon, right? So do you reckon [00:15:45] you’re going to overcompensate for that?

Jaqueline Hurst: You can process that differently.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: I know you’re like, I’ve done [00:15:50] all the work on it. But the thing is, is to a point, because if you had done [00:15:55] some other work on it, right, you will hear [00:16:00] what this person says.

Rhona Eskander: And be okay with it.

Jaqueline Hurst: And be totally okay. [00:16:05]

Rhona Eskander: I’d love to get that, but we’ll book a session after. Can I.

Jaqueline Hurst: Just. The whole reason I want to say [00:16:10] that is not to be contentious, but to say one doesn’t have to live like that just because we have been programmed [00:16:15] that way. Right. I got brought up believing I had zero worth. [00:16:20] Right? If I was valuable, why have you left? Okay. That was my internal [00:16:25] thing, right? Total. I must not be worth shit. Yeah, right. [00:16:30] I don’t believe that at all. So if someone says something to me or does something or whatever, [00:16:35] whatever, I don’t internalise that the way I would have done as a kid. And that work [00:16:40] takes work, right? But it’s 100% possible to change. So I, as you can tell, [00:16:45] as straight talking as you said, no nonsense. I wouldn’t want if you were my client. I wouldn’t want you holding on to [00:16:50] that stuff and telling yourself like, oh, I’m not saying that you are, but like, oh, but this is what happened [00:16:55] to me and this is how I process it. And that’s it. Because it isn’t it. You can change that. And that [00:17:00] is how you make your life fucking amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, okay, I got it, I got [00:17:05] it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you need to have gone through suffering and pain [00:17:10] in order to be a really, like, successful coach?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think my authenticity [00:17:15] people know when I work with them that I’m not talking from a I’ve read a book and I’m a [00:17:20] life coach space like been there, seen it, done it, got the t shirt. So I would believe that that’s a [00:17:25] huge part of my success. It’s really, really authentic.

Rhona Eskander: Hey, we had this chat because I had my life coach [00:17:30] come on, and I said, I worked with a life coach for a year and someone that I went to university [00:17:35] is. And one of the big reasons that I chose him is because.

Payman Langroudi: He’s been through.

Rhona Eskander: It. Because [00:17:40] he’d been through the depths of hell. Sorry. I’m going to be blunt. Why am I going to choose someone that [00:17:45] has not been? The whole point is, I’m like, you went through that, you came out of it. I’m going to learn [00:17:50] from you and that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Like, if I want to.

Rhona Eskander: If this is where we disagree.

Payman Langroudi: I want a full mouth reconstruction. [00:17:55] I don’t have to come to the dentist who’s had a full mouth reconstruction themselves. Listen, I understand [00:18:00] how it’s how it’s helped your story and sort of the centre of your authenticity and maybe, [00:18:05] you know, call it marketing, whatever you want. But my question is, do you believe that someone who hasn’t [00:18:10] been through it can’t be as effective?

Jaqueline Hurst: I can only talk from my personal experience.

Payman Langroudi: In the industry. [00:18:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: And I know that when I was looking for help back in the day, I. I [00:18:20] was an addict. I had a really clever fucking brain. Right? I could [00:18:25] run rings around people that had not experienced or done anything I’d done, [00:18:30] and that wasn’t. I’m not saying that’s a good thing. It was not a good thing. But I had to go and learn [00:18:35] it myself to get better. So do I believe that? Yes. Is my industry unregulated? [00:18:40] Yes. Can anybody read a book and go? I I’ve left my job [00:18:45] in finance and I’m going to be a life coach. Great. And they might be amazing at marketing and they might [00:18:50] have 80 billion followers on Instagram. And people go, oh, that person must be an amazing [00:18:55] life coach. I should go and buy their stuff. And what is their life experience? [00:19:00] And so yes, the answer to your question is yes. I do believe [00:19:05] people in my industry have to have lived a life to know how to [00:19:10] help people. As a coach, I’m not giving people necessarily advice on what they [00:19:15] should do. I don’t know what they should do. What I do is I teach people how to think [00:19:20] and then they work out for themselves what they should do.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, if someone had the opposite problem that you had, [00:19:25] so you’re saying you had low self-esteem. Let’s say someone’s the opposite. Like like [00:19:30] too confident, overconfident, not self-aware. Yeah. Can you help that person since you [00:19:35] haven’t been in that position?

Jaqueline Hurst: 100%. If they want help.

Rhona Eskander: That’s the. That’s the [00:19:40] most important thing. Also, the key thing that she said here was experience. You just complain. You just said, if [00:19:45] I want a full mouth rehabilitation and you’ve not had one. Well, I’m sorry if someone had just come out of dental [00:19:50] school and treated one patient, I’m not going to go to them for a full mouth rehab. I’d rather go to someone with ten [00:19:55] years experience. Experience is the key thing.

Payman Langroudi: Having been through it yourself question.

Jaqueline Hurst: Having been through it [00:20:00] yourself. Yes, I think especially in my industry, I am a believer of yes, someone has to.

Rhona Eskander: My ex boyfriend [00:20:05] was a charlatan and quit his job to become a life coach and was a narcissist and the most awful [00:20:10] human being. It was a joke and he became a life coach. So yes, I do think it [00:20:15] is unregulated and can be dangerous, but I do also think there’s a place for it. And I [00:20:20] do think some of the coaches that I’ve worked with over the years have been better than therapists, dare I say. [00:20:25] And also, but you’ve really got to do your due diligence. And the danger is, is when you’re [00:20:30] vulnerable, you want help, so you don’t necessarily do your due diligence. And that’s that’s the because [00:20:35] I got myself.

Payman Langroudi: No, look, it’s super unfair to ask this. Yeah, but.

Jaqueline Hurst: No, no, please go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: I’m ready for it [00:20:40] because, you know, it takes hours and hours of talking to people. But in that situation where you’ve got Aruna [00:20:45] saying I’m never good enough. Yeah. And you want to switch that.

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah. [00:20:50]

Payman Langroudi: What are like, what are three top tips that people who feel like that should, should bear in mind?

Jaqueline Hurst: So [00:20:55] first of all, it’s not a feeling. It’s a thought. Right. We don’t feel it. We think it. And [00:21:00] you are in control of your head and your thinking. Right. So you have you have got choices [00:21:05] as to how you think. That’s really important to understand. So the first thing is consciousness, right? Become [00:21:10] conscious of what you’re thinking and and do that, you know, like really become [00:21:15] aware what is going on in my head because most of the time we walk around totally unconscious and [00:21:20] unaware, and you’ve just got this cycle of thoughts going through your brain, like all the time. So [00:21:25] my first tip is get conscious and become aware of what you’re actually thinking. And you, it’s [00:21:30] likely you’re going to find that you are really unkind to yourself. You’re really negative to yourself. [00:21:35] It’s something you’re never, ever, ever going to say to your friend. Ever. Why? [00:21:40] Because fucking mean and rude. So that’s important to think about if I’m not going to say it to them, [00:21:45] why is it all right that I say it to me? Right. So that’s also important to do. And then I would [00:21:50] ask you to look at where the thought comes from and what your life might look like if [00:21:55] you changed it. That’s really powerful. Like, what happens if I look at that [00:22:00] and think I can switch it around and think, actually, I am of value, even [00:22:05] if it’s just to, you know, my kids or my husband. I’m of value, [00:22:10] right? That’s already going to start to change things.

Payman Langroudi: So now you have that insight. Are there tactics [00:22:15] as well?

Jaqueline Hurst: What do you mean tactics?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: Tools. He’s saying like tools. Like in that moment.

Payman Langroudi: Like maybe you [00:22:20] teach her, you know, in that moment, whatever it is, I’m.

Jaqueline Hurst: A big believer of writing [00:22:25] things down. I love, love, love every day. Yeah. And I.

Rhona Eskander: Love it. I love [00:22:30] journaling, it’s the most powerful thing for me.

Payman Langroudi: Do you go back? Do you go back in your journal and look what you wrote six months [00:22:35] ago?

Rhona Eskander: Since I was 11 years old. And I have all.

Payman Langroudi: Of them in a cupboard. Look, when you look at what you were writing six months ago, do [00:22:40] you sometimes laugh at how silly you were being or something?

Rhona Eskander: Because for me, it was never silly.

Payman Langroudi: And sometimes they’re not [00:22:45] journaling like what you were thinking. What you were thinking was incorrect.

Rhona Eskander: Six months. I understand that that [00:22:50] was what was important to me at that time. And the whole point, I mean, some people have the train of thought [00:22:55] that like, you should write things down and then not look at it or burn it or whatever. I actually don’t mind [00:23:00] looking back at stuff. And I’m like, oh, that was interesting because I’d forgotten.

Payman Langroudi: What patterns do you see when you see when you look back [00:23:05] at it?

Rhona Eskander: Um, there is this like pattern of desperation and wanting [00:23:10] to kind of, I mean, I don’t know, like there’s lots of different things. Like, sometimes it’s, [00:23:15] you know, I love to write when I travel. So it might also be about what I’ve done or, um, [00:23:20] the things that, you know, we’ve experienced. There’s sometimes gratitude in there. And I find that that’s [00:23:25] really powerful in the day. And the gratitude would be like just had the most amazing oat milk flat white. And it tasted [00:23:30] amazing, you know? And I’m really grateful I’m writing here amongst the pyramids. Do you know what I mean? So [00:23:35] there’s things like that which I find is really great. And I do think there is power and gratitude and gratitude isn’t this constant [00:23:40] thing of like, my life is amazing. Be grateful there are people less privileged. Like, I really do think it’s being like [00:23:45] like looking around and being like, what am I appreciating? It could be even like being in a clean and quiet house this morning. Do you [00:23:50] see what I mean? It’s just so yeah, for me, that’s it. And sometimes it is just a stream of consciousness being like, I’m waking [00:23:55] up feeling anxious. I don’t know what’s going on. It might not even make sense. Just like stream of consciousness. It’s fine, but [00:24:00] it’s all out in the morning. And then I’m like, okay, great. So I do agree that writing really.

Payman Langroudi: Helps you say write is [00:24:05] the benefit. Both that getting it out of your head and the review.

Jaqueline Hurst: With the people. [00:24:10]

Payman Langroudi: That you.

Jaqueline Hurst: Work with. It’s not just a journaling is really important. It’s not just journaling. It’s about understanding tools and techniques [00:24:15] to actually learn how to change your brain. How does it work, right? Like how do you change your minds [00:24:20] and get into a space of it’s not positive thinking, right? Because that to me is I [00:24:25] love the idea of it. Just that never worked for me. Like, I could never stand in front of a mirror and go, I [00:24:30] feel really confident today. Like, no, it just wasn’t going to work. So there’s tools and techniques to [00:24:35] teach you how to get there, to be able to have an end result of being in a looking in a mirror and going, [00:24:40] yeah, I’ve fucking got this. Bring it on. Right. That’s great. And so there are ways to do that. And that [00:24:45] requires a pen and a paper, you know, and I think there’s something special about getting it from your [00:24:50] head, you know, clearly on paper and working it through. It’s [00:24:55] annoying for people because we’re in the day and age of everything’s fast, but actually when you slow it down, it’s really helpful. [00:25:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you noticed that how many years have you been doing this?

Jaqueline Hurst: Since? [00:25:05] Pretty much since I got clean. I got clean at 20. I got clean in 2003. [00:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: So have you noticed that the problems have changed a lot since mobile phones? [00:25:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: Um, yeah, drastically.

Payman Langroudi: It’s definitely the cause of a bunch of pain.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s it’s [00:25:20] we are totally disconnected from each other, you know? It’s it’s really [00:25:25] the thing I hate the most is when I walk past, like a family at a restaurant of, like, two kids, you know what I’m going [00:25:30] to say? And parents, and they’re all on the phone. And it’s to me that’s really upsetting. And I’m a real believer of, you [00:25:35] know, being very careful with your tech and having, having, controlling your tech [00:25:40] rather than letting it control you.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. And I saw a huge difference. And my friend that I was just telling [00:25:45] you about in Dubai, I mean, she sounds a little bit like your sister. I think she came from a difficult, [00:25:50] broken home and as a result, gives like 300% to her kids. And she definitely made [00:25:55] the choice. I think at one point she wanted to be a career woman, and then she made the choice of being like, no, I’m going to [00:26:00] really dedicate, you know, my life to basically my kids upbringing. And now she’s [00:26:05] thinking about transitioning back into work. But anyway, when I went to go see her, her kids, they [00:26:10] were so amazing. And I rarely say that because I’m not someone that’s super maternal or broody [00:26:15] or anything like that, but I was like, they were such a pleasure to be around. And my husband and I were like, [00:26:20] oh my God, they are so intelligent, so inquisitive, so present. And I was [00:26:25] like, Anna, what have you done? And, you know, she said to me, she was like, and I and I noticed it, no iPads [00:26:30] or no mobile phones. And it was.

Payman Langroudi: Well, at.

Rhona Eskander: Last it was at all. They had to use the, [00:26:35] uh, ten. No, sorry. Eight and six.

Payman Langroudi: All right.

Rhona Eskander: That’s eight and six. Right.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:26:40] you’re right. There’s plenty of two year olds with iPads.

Rhona Eskander: Eight and six. And she said to me something [00:26:45] similar. She goes, you know, I realised if you give a child something that’s less intelligent [00:26:50] than them, like a piece of paper or a ball, they’ll be creative and they’ll use their brains on how to make [00:26:55] it interesting. If you give them something like technology, which is smarter than them, their [00:27:00] brains will start to slow down. And I really saw that because they were constantly being creative around the [00:27:05] house, and you could see that there was like this little distraction. They wanted to be present, they wanted [00:27:10] to be outside. There is no judgement because I do believe, like, again, some parents, that’s what they [00:27:15] use as a coping tool. But I really felt the difference when I saw the way her kids were interacting. [00:27:20]

Jaqueline Hurst: Didn’t Steve? Was it Steve Jobs that said I would never give my kids an iPhone? Okay, so like, [00:27:25] why have why have we not listened to that? Like, this is seriously, like I always say, [00:27:30] people tell you what you want to know. Yeah, you just got to listen, right? So if he’s [00:27:35] saying that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so true. It’s so true. I want to I know [00:27:40] that we digressed a lot into the mindset stuff already, but for [00:27:45] you, kind of like late 20s or sort of, um, early 20s. Like what would [00:27:50] your typical day have looked like back then?

Jaqueline Hurst: We’re talking about when I’m in my when I was in my addiction. [00:27:55] Addiction, you know, it was a very dark time and it [00:28:00] still makes me feel quite emotional when I think about it. For the girl that I was then and [00:28:05] I was living, um, literally, I was in some ways I was functioning in other [00:28:10] ways, I really wasn’t. But I would tell you that most of my time was spent behind closed doors, closed [00:28:15] curtains, and on my own, using drugs. Um, I did have a job, and [00:28:20] I could function on that, but a lot of the time it was literally I [00:28:25] was completely isolated.

Rhona Eskander: What was your.

Jaqueline Hurst: Job? I was working as a PA, and, um, [00:28:30] you know, I was, you know, doing cocaine in the toilets at most of most of the time. And, [00:28:35] um, you know, it was it was crazy. And then in the evenings, I would go home [00:28:40] and smoke a load of dope and, you know, shut myself off from the world and, you know, or or it [00:28:45] was, you know, if I was in the mood to actually go out and do something, it would be crazy shit [00:28:50] that, you know, I would go out and come back three days later. Um, and [00:28:55] it was a wild, wild time. And, you know, as I keep saying, [00:29:00] I’m really lucky to say, you know, I’d wake up in different countries sometimes and think, how the fuck did I get here?

Rhona Eskander: Did [00:29:05] you have any real friends at the time? No, none. Yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: No I didn’t. [00:29:10]

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s really.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s probably very hard to be friendly with someone like me. Back then, it was [00:29:15] probably impossible actually to do that.

Rhona Eskander: So what was the day? That was the turning point.

Jaqueline Hurst: So the day that [00:29:20] was the turning point was I was living in a squat. I had nothing, no money to my name.

Rhona Eskander: And not in touch with your [00:29:25] family at this point.

Jaqueline Hurst: Wasn’t in touch with my family. And, um, my mum had found out [00:29:30] like that. I was down the road and knocked on the door and [00:29:35] came in and said, you know, you’re my daughter and I love you. And are [00:29:40] you depressed? Like what’s going on? And I don’t know why at that moment, [00:29:45] in that moment, you know, I think I had I think I’d really hit the floor [00:29:50] at this point. And I just thought, I need to say to someone the truth. And I just looked at her [00:29:55] and said, I’m a drug addict and I need help. And she took me to my first meeting. She said, what do I do? I [00:30:00] said, I think you go to a meeting. I’ve heard of meetings. And that was the day I got clean. 27th of [00:30:05] August 2003.

Rhona Eskander: Do you still go to the meetings?

Jaqueline Hurst: No, I went for about six years. It [00:30:10] was the it saved my life wholeheartedly. Saved my life.

Rhona Eskander: So you believe in the program? [00:30:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: I do 100% believe in the A program, the Narcotics Anonymous program. It was [00:30:20] different back then. Um, I wholeheartedly believe in it. I 100% [00:30:25] became who I am from that space. Without that wouldn’t be here. Like, [00:30:30] I owe it my life, I really do. And it is a bridge to normal living. [00:30:35] And like I was saying earlier about labels, I don’t want to be labelled [00:30:40] anything. I want to cross the bridge to normal living. I don’t want to sit in that space. And I [00:30:45] have a very controversial view of addiction, which is different from those in the rooms now. [00:30:50] Um, I do, I do sometimes pop into meetings. I did go back last year because my [00:30:55] father passed away, and that was an incredibly difficult time, and it was the only time in, as [00:31:00] I say, I’m coming up 22 years in August. It was the only time in 22 years I had actually contemplated [00:31:05] it again, which was a very frightening space to be in, and I was grateful to go to a meeting, [00:31:10] you know, or to, um, but I think it’s a really powerful, powerful program.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t [00:31:15] it rare that people, the first time they go to a meeting, stop [00:31:20] using drugs? Are you the kind of person who’s like, all in on it? I’m in the 4%, all in on the [00:31:25] drugs in the first place.

Jaqueline Hurst: Percent of people that get clean and stay clean. 4%?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: Is that in your character that you go all into stuff like I do?

Jaqueline Hurst: Very much go all in. [00:31:35] But I also believe that it was it was, you know, I was broken. It was a gift of desperation. [00:31:40] I was if you’d have said to me at that point, run down Oxford Street stark naked, and this will [00:31:45] get you clean, I would have done it.

Rhona Eskander: But you know, but I do think it is a type of person, because I [00:31:50] had a friend that was an addict and, um, is an addict [00:31:55] was open about it, very open about it. Um, but would think that he [00:32:00] could control his ability to get clean because he go through lapses. [00:32:05] So he’d be clean for two months, three months, then relapse. And the behaviour [00:32:10] that I observed became too much. And the thing is, it wasn’t because I didn’t want to support [00:32:15] him through the process, it’s just that he didn’t really show signs of ever wanting [00:32:20] to get clean. And, you know, like. And this is the thing. Yeah. And it’s like, he then [00:32:25] had a friend that tried to be, like, gave him an ultimatum because all his relationships broke [00:32:30] down in his life and have continued to break down still to this day. And I had reached a point, you know, where I was, [00:32:35] like money had been taken away. Um, there was too much at this point. I’ve had [00:32:40] enough, you know, like three years of this friendship. I just like I can’t do anymore. Because if you don’t want to help yourself, like no one else can help [00:32:45] you. So someone else came into his life and said, listen, like, because he’d found out [00:32:50] he’d been taking drugs and he said, you have to go. He went to one meeting, half arsed online, and then that was [00:32:55] it, you know, and then just keeps relapsing. So I do think it’s about that commitment. We had an amazing [00:33:00] inspirational ex addict on the podcast as well, Hunter Michael Shepherd, who also [00:33:05] runs a huge program in the US. And he was addicted I think since the age of 12, you [00:33:10] know, and really, really hardcore Core reached rock bottom like you has been clean ever since. [00:33:15] Helps a lot of young people.

Payman Langroudi: Your friend hasn’t reached rock bottom yet, but.

Rhona Eskander: He has reached rock bottom. He has. That’s [00:33:20] the crazy thing.

Jaqueline Hurst: He wouldn’t have done. And I think that we don’t know when it’s our time to reach rock bottom. [00:33:25] And I think addiction is a terribly sad thing to do. And, you know, addicts get a really bad rap. They [00:33:30] get a really bad rap because they do things that aren’t really who they are because they’re ill. And, you [00:33:35] know, until you hit a space where you are willing to rip yourself [00:33:40] apart, really willing to rip yourself apart, stare at all of your defects, [00:33:45] all of your shortcomings. Look at your part in things, all these things that you really have to do. Rip [00:33:50] apart your ego. Get really humble. Learn to say sorry right until you [00:33:55] are in a space in your life which they call it the gift of desperation for a [00:34:00] reason, then there isn’t going to be any change. And so it’s. And the problem is, if [00:34:05] only we could magic something that could make people at that point we’d [00:34:10] be multi gazillionaires. But people either get that or they don’t. And [00:34:15] it’s also not their fault.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. Well, that brings me on to my next point, because obviously I’ve been obsessed with the work [00:34:20] of Doctor Gabor Matte for years. And I read In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which talks [00:34:25] about a lot of the patients that he was seeing, and that was the first time that I viewed addiction in a completely [00:34:30] different way, because the way that he I mean, I don’t know if you agree or [00:34:35] disagree with it, but at the end of the day, he totally creates a [00:34:40] sense of understanding and empathy for addicts because he’s like, we are treating this [00:34:45] completely in the wrong way. We’re punishing them, we’re blaming them, we’re stigmatising them. And I was [00:34:50] like, ah, okay. Like this is starting to make sense to me.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s really important. It’s really belittling. [00:34:55] I remember when I was married and I was engaged to my ex-husband and, um, someone [00:35:00] at a drinks party said to him in front of me, um, why would [00:35:05] you want to marry a guy like that? That was an addict. And this guy was supposedly, you know, had [00:35:10] gone to public school and was supposedly intelligent. And I remember looking at a guy like that thinking, [00:35:15] I feel sad for him, that he still sits in the space of stigmatising people [00:35:20] that have got addiction.

Rhona Eskander: Agreed.

Jaqueline Hurst: You know, agreed. It was, you know, [00:35:25] people just need education on that.

Rhona Eskander: And actually, I think more and more the society that [00:35:30] we’re living in, regardless of the fact that, you know, we’re able to function because we have food and all [00:35:35] the things that, you know, our great grandparents and everything didn’t have. We’re living in a really difficult [00:35:40] time. And it’s become it’s you want to escape the reality. I empathise with so [00:35:45] many people. I mean, I struggle. I’m actually teetotal, been teetotal my whole life [00:35:50] because I knew I had an addictive personality. Really weirdly from a young age. [00:35:55] And I was like, I’m not going to drink. It was like this weird thing, like. And everyone’s like, oh, did you used to drink? I’m like, never [00:36:00] drank, never touched a cigarette, never would touch a vape. Do you know what I mean? Anything like that. Because I [00:36:05] know the way that my brain works. And I’m really glad because also I self-soothe [00:36:10] in other ways, like I self-soothe with like validation, for example, posting social media, all that kind [00:36:15] of thing.

Jaqueline Hurst: And I love that you can say that and be so clear about what you know that [00:36:20] you’re doing. Yeah, a lot of people do these things and they have zero awareness [00:36:25] of why. Yeah. So it’s really powerful that you know that. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: You know, if she goes to a retreat [00:36:30] and they give her mushroom tea, she’ll have that.

Rhona Eskander: Listen no no no.

Jaqueline Hurst: He’s like not getting involved [00:36:35] in this. No no no no no no.

Rhona Eskander: That that number one. That’s not [00:36:40] true. Again the plant medicine space is something that it is. It’s [00:36:45] true. Like the plant medicine space is something again through Doctor Gabor Matte that I’m interested in. It’s not [00:36:50] to say I haven’t. I wanted to explore ayahuasca once, for example, in South America with [00:36:55] the I didn’t do it in the end for whatever reason, but that is a space that I’m interested in. [00:37:00] It’s no, it’s not. I don’t have any interest in like going and getting high. And when you actually understand how these medicines [00:37:05] work, it’s not about going getting high, you know. It is, it is, it is. I’m very precious about [00:37:10] this thing, you know, because I do think that when done with the right intention, with the right people and the right space, it can. And [00:37:15] I’ve seen some people change their lives through that, not me.

Payman Langroudi: I’m all for it, man.

Rhona Eskander: I know, but you want to [00:37:20] get it high. But I don’t think ayahuasca will. After after a huge vomiting session. You might [00:37:25] be saying otherwise.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your typical client like? Are they like.

Jaqueline Hurst: I wish I could say I have a typical one. [00:37:30] I spend a lot of time signing NDAs, which is interesting. So that’s pretty much my typical [00:37:35] client. Um.

Rhona Eskander: And it’s mostly Americans or UK based or both. [00:37:40]

Jaqueline Hurst: Everywhere.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine.

Jaqueline Hurst: Like everywhere. And, um. Yeah. And you know, but it [00:37:45] doesn’t have to be that level. You know, there can also be people that come in and say, you know, I work [00:37:50] on reception and I really need to get some help. And that’s amazing too. Like, my door’s open [00:37:55] to everybody as long as you want to.

Payman Langroudi: Do the work of mentoring.

Jaqueline Hurst: One on one. I work with couples [00:38:00] as well. Um, but mainly one on one. And it’s all done on zoom because I’m all over the. I’m all [00:38:05] over. You know. Some days I’m here and some days I’m there and blah, blah, blah.

Payman Langroudi: But typically, what, once a week [00:38:10] or once a month?

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah, usually. Usually I like to do a set of, um, sessions [00:38:15] with people. So it can be four sessions or eight sessions. But I’m not in the business of taking [00:38:20] your money. I’m in the business of you coming in, dealing with your shit, learning [00:38:25] how to do it, and then off you go.

Rhona Eskander: So do you make it accessible? I know that’s a strange question because [00:38:30] obviously, look, you know, as people that are interested in health and mental [00:38:35] care, you know, everyone suffers from it, right? And you know, I love dentistry. I love my job. I [00:38:40] can really change the lives of people. But I also know that I’m actually not accessible to a lot of people because [00:38:45] of my fees, because of the kind of work that I provide, um, which, [00:38:50] you know, sometimes can be a little bit of a kind of mental challenge for me. And I get that, and sometimes I’m confronted with that by other people. [00:38:55] Would you say that you are accessible to the layperson?

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah. I mean, there’s definitely, [00:39:00] um, even if somebody just wants a one off session, there’s like a 45 minute session you can take with [00:39:05] me if that’s what you want to do.

Rhona Eskander: So you’ve also said, um, that [00:39:10] you our thoughts create our feelings. Right. That’s thing something that you.

Jaqueline Hurst: That’s.

Rhona Eskander: Something [00:39:15] that’s something that you’ve mentioned a few times. But sometimes emotions hit before we even [00:39:20] know what we’re thinking, which is what I said to you. The shower situation. Right. She said something. It [00:39:25] hit me. We’ll have a private session on this. It hit me to the core that at that moment I was like this. I couldn’t even [00:39:30] rationalise it. It just. It was almost like it felt like this, right? I’m not going into it. No, no. How [00:39:35] do we catch them in time?

Jaqueline Hurst: Okay. So I like that, I [00:39:40] like it, I like the question. I’ll tell you why. When you’re feeling that feeling, it’s like a little alarm [00:39:45] clock is how you need to think about it. Like a little alarm going off is, oh, I’m feeling this feeling [00:39:50] okay. Now, most people just sit in that space and go, oh my God, I’m anxious, I’m anxious, I’m anxious. Right? But [00:39:55] no, to do your work, you have to say, right, I’m feeling anxious. Yes. What [00:40:00] am I thinking that’s making me feel that way. What’s going on in my head [00:40:05] that’s making me feel that way? When you can unpack that, right. I’m [00:40:10] thinking she said that because she doesn’t like me, for example. We then want [00:40:15] to say, well, first of all, is that true? Is that a fact? Do we know that to be a fact? Because we don’t know what other [00:40:20] people are thinking or what their what their you know, that’s all our assumptions and all our opinions and all our [00:40:25] thoughts. So you unpack the thinking around that, and then you work each thought to [00:40:30] in turn change how you feel. And that’s your process, right? Which [00:40:35] takes work to learn how to do. But ultimately that’s what we do.

Rhona Eskander: Can you give an example? Okay, I’m going to just [00:40:40] make up something. Um, okay. So say a girl says to her girlfriends, oh, um, [00:40:45] I think she looked really fat about someone in her group. I don’t know why she wears jeans like that. [00:40:50] Yeah, it really doesn’t suit her. She’s got really big hips and a really big bum. Let’s just say that happens. [00:40:55] And then the friend gets triggered because she’s thinking, well, I’m not actually much different in size [00:41:00] to this girl, so she must think that about me, right? So unpack that. So she’s triggered. [00:41:05] She’s really upset because you were saying.

Payman Langroudi: What should she do?

Rhona Eskander: What should she do in that moment? Okay, so there’s a dialogue.

Jaqueline Hurst: First [00:41:10] of all, I would say stop making it about you. Yeah, whoever you are. Right. Number one, we take [00:41:15] everything about us, right? Like, oh, my God, they’re going to think this. And then. Right. We’re not that interesting [00:41:20] to other people. Yeah. We’re just not. Yeah. So the first thing I would say is it’s not about you, right? [00:41:25] Stop making it about you. It’s about the person that said that thing. Fine. Then I would say [00:41:30] write down all your thoughts about that. Right. She must think that I’m fat. Or she must think [00:41:35] that I look awful every time I go out. Or she must think dah dah dah dah dah. Right. And [00:41:40] then I would challenge every single one of those thoughts. I would literally go [00:41:45] thought by thought, right? So she must think I look awful too, right? So I would say [00:41:50] to you, really? Like, how do you know that? And you’re going to come up with a 15 million thoughts. And I’m [00:41:55] going to say, but how do you know? And the answer to that is you’re never going to know.

Rhona Eskander: Of course.

Jaqueline Hurst: Right. So when you start [00:42:00] to unpack this, you start to literally break it down. And that’s how you then change [00:42:05] how you feel.

Payman Langroudi: It sounds a bit logical though. And this, these these reactions that she’s having [00:42:10] sound a bit illogical.

Jaqueline Hurst: Her reactions are let’s change the word illogical [00:42:15] to unconscious. So her reactions are from an unconscious space.

Rhona Eskander: I would describe it as [00:42:20] fight or flight. When I personally get in that zone, I would say that I cannot rationalise it in that moment.

Jaqueline Hurst: In that moment. [00:42:25] And so what you have to do is do the work so that you become aware of when you’re [00:42:30] thinking it’s a process, right? First, you have to become aware. That can take a week or two. Then you [00:42:35] have to say, oh, this is the thought I’m thinking, right? How can I think about this differently? Which could take a week or two. And [00:42:40] then the third time in like week three or week four, when people say those things, it doesn’t [00:42:45] it doesn’t hit like that anymore.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the space between stimulus and response. [00:42:50] Yeah, you must you have explored that.

Jaqueline Hurst: But it’s what you.

Payman Langroudi: Do with that idea [00:42:55] that, yeah, the stimulus and response don’t necessarily have to be the same thing.

Jaqueline Hurst: And they will [00:43:00] be immediate when you haven’t. When you have an unmanaged mind and they will be way different [00:43:05] once you’ve managed. I always say it’s like a puppy dog, your mind is like a puppy, and it comes like when it’s [00:43:10] unmanaged, which most people’s are okay, it’s not our fault we aren’t taught this stuff at school. I wish we were [00:43:15] right, but ultimately it’s a puppy dog. I want to go here. I want to sniff it. I want to go there. I want to go here. I want to go there, right? [00:43:20] Puppies are like lala crazy. When you manage your mind, you’re teaching the dog. [00:43:25] Sit, stay. Come. It learns [00:43:30] and it knows what to do. And that’s what we’re doing with our brains. And your brain is so [00:43:35] fucking powerful. It is literally the driver of your whole machine.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:43:40] mean, look, I’m so I really, really believe and like one observation that [00:43:45] I’ll make is that with you, everything that you have achieved is also because of the power of your mind [00:43:50] and because you really believed and wanted those things. Yesterday I was on a podcast [00:43:55] and they were asking me like, you were one of the first dentists to be on social media. How did you [00:44:00] get there? And I was like, because I really believed in social media as this tool. No [00:44:05] one else was doing it in dentistry because no one believed dentists would be interesting on social media. [00:44:10] I wholeheartedly believed it. Therefore, that belief led me to where I am [00:44:15] today. And even now, when things don’t go my way of certain things, I do take a lot of accountability. [00:44:20] Sometimes a bit too much because I really blame myself. It’s your fault you didn’t think about it hard enough, you know? I’m like, [00:44:25] you could have manifested and controlled every aspect. It’s really hard in relationships because that’s the one part that I realised. [00:44:30]

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah, relationships.

Rhona Eskander: Can’t control the other person. You can’t. You can’t control the.

Jaqueline Hurst: Other person, you know? Yes. That [00:44:35] is exactly my brain in it. But I don’t want to give off the impression here or your listeners to think like, you [00:44:40] know, it’s all you know, I was always that way. I wasn’t, I was an addict [00:44:45] with nothing at lying on the floor, you know? Fucked.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: But [00:44:50] I’m not that person today because of the power of my mind. Because I know how to use it. Because I know how to feed it. [00:44:55] Because I know how to look after it, because I know how to think properly. So that should be empowering [00:45:00] for people to say, well, if she can go from there to there just by using the power of her brain, [00:45:05] I can do these things too. Like, I’m not special and different. Yeah. I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:45:10] are you struggling with?

Jaqueline Hurst: How long have you got? No, I’m just kidding. What do I struggle with? [00:45:15] Um, I what do I struggle with? That’s a really good question.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:45:20] this week.

Jaqueline Hurst: What did I struggle with this week?

Rhona Eskander: Um, you said to me, being in London.

Jaqueline Hurst: My mum, [00:45:25] my mum had a small operation this week, and I often feel overly responsible. [00:45:30] You know, my dad passed away last year, and I’m learning the balance of, [00:45:35] like, how to look after her. And also, um, not, you [00:45:40] know, I can’t mummy her. She’s an adult. She’s 75, but my parents had a marriage where they were together [00:45:45] for like 52 years, and my dad did everything for my mum. And my mum is 75. And, you [00:45:50] know, I said to her the other day, I was like, just print that email, mum, just print it. And she said to me, which really hurt my heart. How [00:45:55] do I do that? And I suddenly thought, okay, you know, so that balance is a really [00:46:00] fine balance. And I would say, and I don’t want to use the word struggle because I don’t think that’s a struggle. But that’s the thing that’s [00:46:05] on my mind. And struggling is not a comfortable place for anybody to be in. And [00:46:10] again, when we get our minds right, we don’t struggle. It doesn’t mean I’m at the I’m not [00:46:15] like, this person is like everything’s, you know, sorted out because life throws at us, [00:46:20] especially me. All day long. There’s shit coming my way, right? All day long. There’s shit coming [00:46:25] my way. Especially me. I’m joking, but you know what I mean. Like we’ve all got shit. It’s how we handle [00:46:30] it in our heads. And I’m really in tune with myself. So if something doesn’t sit properly, [00:46:35] I’ll talk to my friends about it that are also emotionally intelligent. I have great support [00:46:40] around me. I will take it to my coach, you know, and have a conversation with him about, [00:46:45] like, I’m a real believer of like, this is a game that we’re playing this game of life [00:46:50] and we’re always learning, you know? In fact, the more I learn, the less I know. Like for sure. [00:46:55]

Rhona Eskander: What I really loved at the beginning of the conversation as well is this like kind of notion [00:47:00] of divine timing that you were saying to kind of believe that things are [00:47:05] happening for you, not against you? I think that that’s quite beautiful. And that’s definitely been a [00:47:10] mind mindset shift for me and what I’ve been like. Um, [00:47:15] there are so many things that I’ve tried to control, but when they’ve, I’ve actually lost them or it’s gone [00:47:20] wrong, I’m like, oh my God, that was actually so good that happened. You know, like, I’m really glad that’s no longer in my [00:47:25] life. Those people or this, this company or this patient or whatever it is. And [00:47:30] I’m like, I tried to really control the whole outcome of that situation because I was so avoidant of [00:47:35] the pain. And then when it happened, it was awful. When it happened, I was I mean, I’m really like I really [00:47:40] grieve situations. And then like a year on, I’m like, however, I’m not bitter about it at all. I’m like, [00:47:45] it happened for a reason. And I’m kind of glad it’s no longer in my life, you know? And that’s that.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s funny, isn’t it? Because the [00:47:50] more you control, the less control you’ve got. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But do you believe. Because I think the one thing that I [00:47:55] struggle with because I’m a massive it’s almost like a contradiction because I’m a massive believer in like your mind [00:48:00] and manifesting to a degree, not the toxic positivity type of manifesting, but like, like you said, like you somewhere [00:48:05] in your head were like, I’m going to provide something to people to help people like how [00:48:10] you ended up as a coach, etc. so it’s really important that your little actions every day allow things to happen, but [00:48:15] in a way that’s control. If you if that makes sense, because you’ve put out [00:48:20] your intention of what you want. And I think there’s almost like this fine balance of not trying [00:48:25] to grip onto it too tightly, but like knowing what you want, and also also at the same time letting [00:48:30] things be and happen the way they’re meant to happen. Does that make sense?

Jaqueline Hurst: It does. I had this great teacher and she she said [00:48:35] something which I hope will help you. I know it definitely helped me. And she said, like with things like that, what you have to do is [00:48:40] imagine that you’re like buying that thing on Amazon, right? Once you’ve bought it and paid for [00:48:45] it, it’s on its way and then you release it. Yeah. And I love that because it’s like [00:48:50] you have to, you know, you’ve got to put the work in and then you’ve got to release [00:48:55] it, right. Like, you can’t be spending your life trying to control the minutiae of everything and everyone [00:49:00] around you. Like, it’s just, you know it. Control is an illusion. It’s such an illusion. [00:49:05]

Rhona Eskander: So a question that I’ve got to ask you as well, because I find this topic really interesting, is also about relationships. [00:49:10] Do you believe that people can create or [00:49:15] draw in the type of relationships that they want and keep [00:49:20] them? Or do you think it’s much more complex because you’ve got two people, two brains, [00:49:25] etc., etc.? I mean, what’s your thoughts on that?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think relationships are one of the [00:49:30] is not one of is the hardest thing that people struggle with. Um, on [00:49:35] many levels, because life is really all about relationships, isn’t it? And I will urge and urge [00:49:40] people to do their work on themselves right now. If you’re in a healthy, loving [00:49:45] relationship, you can do the work on yourself as you’re going through those relationships. You know.

Rhona Eskander: That’s [00:49:50] literally my poor husband has had to deal with me doing.

Jaqueline Hurst: That for the.

Rhona Eskander: Past five years.

Jaqueline Hurst: That’s a healthy relationship, right? As you’re [00:49:55] growing and changing, you know, he’s still there and you’re having a great relationship, right? But I [00:50:00] you know, I’m not a believer of like, you’ve got to love yourself before you step into a relationship. But I do think you have to learn [00:50:05] about your patterns before you, you know, before you dive in. And [00:50:10] again, it depends on sort of the levels of traumas and things you’ve had. Childhood plays a massive [00:50:15] role of, you know, the partners that we choose because ultimately I’m a believer that [00:50:20] we choose, you know, our partners is is either our mother or our father. And it’s, [00:50:25] you know, we’re trying to get the thing that we lacked from that parent through that, through the person that we [00:50:30] choose. Um, and so we have to look at all of that stuff in quite deep level. You know, some [00:50:35] of us do before you can have something super, super healthy, you know, you’ve got to know about your boundaries, your [00:50:40] value, your worth, you know, things like that. And you’ve also got to be someone I’m a believer of, like, [00:50:45] you know, you have to learn to really love your life and know that you’re whole anyway, and [00:50:50] that having a partner is an added bonus. But it isn’t everything. You know, a lot of [00:50:55] people get caught up in, you know, I’m single and if I had a partner then I’d be happy. And [00:51:00] that’s a really dangerous way to live your life. No one’s coming to save you. Yeah. No one’s [00:51:05] coming to save you.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s very.

Payman Langroudi: And I grass is always greener as well.

Jaqueline Hurst: Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: Um, but also, I always [00:51:10] say that, like, women have also been brought up with this toxic narrative about being saved, [00:51:15] you know, Disney, sex and the city. And I find it really dangerous. Um, [00:51:20] I even said yesterday, you know, like, the biggest hoax of my generation [00:51:25] was like, big coming to rescue Carrie in Sex and the city.

Jaqueline Hurst: Because I remember [00:51:30] those days. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but.

Jaqueline Hurst: Big doesn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Change. First of all, he was married twice before he gave [00:51:35] you the bare minimum. And then you’re saying he’s coming to Paris to declare his undying love. Oh, and then, [00:51:40] by the way, he also stands her up on the altar. Do you know what I mean? And it’s like, no, but we still want the [00:51:45] big. Do you know what I mean? So I feel like there’s also this toxic narrative around constantly pining [00:51:50] over someone that gives you the bare minimum because they may change, you know?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think I think it’s a very [00:51:55] strange time out there with dating and things like that. Today, I think that men and women are totally [00:52:00] at. They are literally like this. You know, I don’t know if anyone can see that on a podcast, but like, we’re just [00:52:05] on completely different levels today. And I think that, you know, women decided to, you know, burn [00:52:10] their bras. And we wanted equality. And we thought, why not? I want to be in the boardroom, too. And we’ve got to [00:52:15] that point now, which is amazing, you know. Thank you to the suffragettes. Thank you to all these women before us. That got [00:52:20] us to a point where we’ve got a voice and and I feel that, you know, men are a [00:52:25] bit stuck now of like, well, now what? What do we do? And men open doors for women and women say, no, thank [00:52:30] you, I can do that myself. So they’re a bit confused. And yet women really want a man to be gentle and [00:52:35] loving and kind and all the rest of it. And it’s all like everything’s everywhere, you know? And it’s like how [00:52:40] something has to change. Because we’re in a space right now where I’m hearing more and more and more of people just [00:52:45] saying I’m just single and I’m staying that way. Like, I just can’t do it.

Rhona Eskander: I had three women in my surgery over the last [00:52:50] three months that have chosen to have IVF donor babies on their own.

Payman Langroudi: No doubt at all.

Rhona Eskander: No. [00:52:55] Don’t even know donors. And I was like, that’s interesting. Or lucrative jobs 40, [00:53:00] 41 years old were like, he never came along. So I’m doing on my own.

Jaqueline Hurst: I think women have, [00:53:05] you know, accidentally overtaken a lot of men today. And men have [00:53:10] to learn about emotional intelligence, and yet no one’s teaching them. So we’re [00:53:15] really, really stuck at the moment out there. It’s it’s an interesting space. [00:53:20]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, it really is.

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You’ve worked with so many clients, as you’ve said. And what’s the most common thought [00:53:25] pattern that holds people back?

Jaqueline Hurst: I’m not good enough, really.

Payman Langroudi: Is that men [00:53:30] as well?

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, is there a difference between men and women or age groups or different patterns?

Jaqueline Hurst: What [00:53:35] I love about working with men is men are way more logical, right? They’re very bum, bum, bum like. It’s [00:53:40] really clear when you work with a guy and women are a lot more like, you know, spaghetti. Like, then we [00:53:45] go this way and then we go that way, you know? So men are super, super logical, but often, you know, they’re very action [00:53:50] orientated. And so I’m constantly saying to my men clients like, it’s not about [00:53:55] the action, it’s about the thinking, you know. But they are a lot more yeah, logical [00:54:00] action orientated. But um, that’s quite interesting. And women, you know, we’re a bit more complex, right? [00:54:05] We’re a bit more. Yeah. Okay. No more laughing. No, I’m just kidding. But, yeah, we’re a bit more [00:54:10] complex.

Rhona Eskander: You’ve also talked a lot about, like, self-awareness being a superpower. So [00:54:15] thank you for saying that. Self-aware because I work because I was saying but what [00:54:20] is what’s the kind of questions that people should be asking about that? Because you know what the self-awareness piece for me was like? I [00:54:25] got surrounded by so many people. I mean, I was in this echo chamber. Still am still trying to escape the echo chamber. If I’m honest [00:54:30] of a certain type of person in my life. And what I recognised, [00:54:35] there was such little self-awareness. And I think particularly for those people that like being like in the limelight [00:54:40] or like being the centre of attention. Semi narcissists, everything [00:54:45] like that. They really fail to ask questions and like have accountability [00:54:50] and that really bothers me. You know, it really bothers me. Like even as I was telling you about the addict that I [00:54:55] was friends with, you know, it was always everyone else’s fault. You know, there was always I don’t [00:55:00] mind people being imperfect. I don’t mind people fucking up because we’re all human. What it does, mind me, [00:55:05] is the self-awareness and lack of accountability and the blame on everyone else when things go wrong. So what [00:55:10] kind of daily question do you think people should be asking themselves?

Jaqueline Hurst: Well, if you’re dealing with a narcissist, [00:55:15] they’re not going to be asking themselves questions. Let’s just leave it at that. Right. Because that isn’t going to happen. You’re asking, [00:55:20] you know, an apple to be an apple and an orange to be an orange. It’s just not going to happen. So those people [00:55:25] won’t be asking themselves daily questions. But by the way, if you’re saying, oh my God, am I a narcissist, I want you to [00:55:30] know you’re not because you’re asking yourself the question, okay, so so your question [00:55:35] you’re asking me, I’m just double checking here is like, what questions should we ask ourselves to be self-aware people?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:55:40] exactly.

Jaqueline Hurst: To people, ultimately is just. What am I thinking? That is like the best question [00:55:45] you can ask yourself ever. What am I thinking? And is this thought helping me go in the direction of [00:55:50] where I want to go? Or is this thought taking me into a completely different direction? What am I thinking? Right? [00:55:55] That’s a really important.

Payman Langroudi: To separate the different personas like the, you know, like that chimp paradox, [00:56:00] kind of that, you know, that I feel like there’s three of me.

Jaqueline Hurst: Right? [00:56:05]

Rhona Eskander: Parts. He’s talking about parts essentially. You know.

Jaqueline Hurst: There will be loads of different parts of you. [00:56:10] Yeah. And we’re all are working.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say, what am I thinking? Which one? Which one are me? You know, like. [00:56:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: Still ask yourself the question because you’ll get some really great answers. You know, it’s a really, really [00:56:20] powerful question. What am I thinking? And it also gets you into the self-awareness section. And by [00:56:25] the way, we can’t just stop at self-awareness. Then we’ve actually got to do our work to change.

Payman Langroudi: Something about.

Jaqueline Hurst: It. Yeah, [00:56:30] you can’t just sit there and be like, yay, you know?

Rhona Eskander: So with dentistry, right. Lots [00:56:35] of high achievers. Okay. So we’ve got my partner describes it as in [00:56:40] finance, dentistry, medicine. Like all these kind of corporate careers, they rely on insecure [00:56:45] overachievers. And I was like, that is such a good way to describe so many dentists because they [00:56:50] rely on us, you know, being insecure and wanting to overachieve. And that’s what kind of keeps [00:56:55] us really driven and really dedicated to the job, if that makes sense. Okay. So anyways, there are [00:57:00] lots of high achievers in dentistry, and there’s this constant drive to do more and be better. But how do we balance [00:57:05] ambition with self-acceptance?

Jaqueline Hurst: Our success doesn’t make you happy. And you know, [00:57:10] there’s this lovely Buddhist saying, which I know I’m going to get wrong, but it’s basically about like, you know, you’ve got to [00:57:15] you’ve got to buy the Ferrari to find your enlightenment, right? Like, you’ve got to go there [00:57:20] to understand that doesn’t do it for you. So I would just say to you that you have to learn how [00:57:25] to value yourself on who you are, not what you do. It takes work, but it’s really, really important. [00:57:30] Otherwise, you’re going to be constantly seeking it from outside of yourself. And you, you know, you can [00:57:35] get to the top rung of the ladder, but it just doesn’t mean you’re happy. So learning how to do that is really, [00:57:40] really important.

Rhona Eskander: And I think it’s really sad because as you said, like the constant gratification on social [00:57:45] media shows people otherwise. And I’ve even seen it with some of my friends that have huge profiles [00:57:50] on social media. They chase one thing after the other to get more of the [00:57:55] engagement, more of the love, and they don’t even know they’re consciously doing it. But I know that they do. I was [00:58:00] listening. Do you ever listen to Matthew Hussey?

Jaqueline Hurst: Sometimes.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I really like his work. And [00:58:05] he was talking today on a podcast because I listened to a lot of his stuff as well, about [00:58:10] how some people would explain the type of person they’re attracted to. But when [00:58:15] you break it down, type is just based on your ego and insecurity. And he was like, I know it’s a [00:58:20] little bit controversial, but someone might say, but really, what they’re saying their type is, is someone that makes [00:58:25] them feel validated on the outside or makes them feel. So for example, you’re like, if they’re [00:58:30] seen with a certain person and someone goes lucky her, or if you’re seen [00:58:35] with a certain person of a certain status or stature. You know, I mean, people, you know, [00:58:40] you might feel like, oh, I’m good enough. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s this massive validation with who we think [00:58:45] we should be with, rather than actually breaking down who the person is and whether they [00:58:50] are good for us. And I thought that, you know what? That’s a really interesting point. And the danger is with social media in every [00:58:55] aspect of their life. For example, if you’ve had an eating disorder and [00:59:00] your weight naturally fluctuates, if you are looking skinnier and have a belief that I am better [00:59:05] when I’m skinnier, and then people online are saying, you look amazing when you’re at your skinniest, [00:59:10] it’s just going to perpetuate that belief. Does that make sense? So sometimes it’s really hard to [00:59:15] know who you are and what makes you happy, because you’re kind of seeking that external validation [00:59:20] all the time, and you believe that it makes you happy.

Jaqueline Hurst: You’ve got to do your work because you, you know, and the further [00:59:25] down that path you go of doing your own work, the less any of that stuff happens. Yeah. And [00:59:30] you know what you are, and you know who you are, and you know that you’re good enough and you know. [00:59:35] And it’s all. It’s all okay.

Rhona Eskander: So would you say you’re invincible?

Jaqueline Hurst: Invincible? [00:59:40] I don’t think I’m invincible. No. I mean, what is invincible? What are.

Payman Langroudi: You chasing? What are you chasing? I mean, [00:59:45] it’s an interesting question, right? That anything that happens in your life that [00:59:50] you’ve got to measure it against. Does this bring me more like [00:59:55] if peace is for me. What?

Jaqueline Hurst: You’re all about that, right? I just wanted to have a mind that was [01:00:00] quiet. Yeah, like that was all I ever wanted because I had, like, a really loud mind and [01:00:05] a destructive mind and a confused mind and a hurting mind. And so for [01:00:10] me, it was always about, how can I be somebody who is completely at peace? [01:00:15] And, you know, I feel I feel blessed today that [01:00:20] I could tell you that I have a I have a life where I lead, which [01:00:25] is deeply peaceful inside. And I think that has been, you know, [01:00:30] worth it on every level.

Payman Langroudi: But do you have to unpack it for your clients? Sometimes because [01:00:35] I thought that I’m chasing, uh, happiness.

Rhona Eskander: You did your whole life. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: I thought I’m chasing happiness. Yeah. Then. But actually, I was confusing. Well, what is that, exactly? [01:00:45] I was confusing happiness with pleasure. Right? Yeah. Joy. The kind of very different [01:00:50] those things.

Rhona Eskander: Dopamine hits.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Now I’m thinking contentment, [01:00:55] which is a totally different thing to happiness and joy and pleasure.

Jaqueline Hurst: Also growing.

Payman Langroudi: Up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: I think age [01:01:00] is a big part of that, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, but unpacking those things, you know, like, because you think you’re chasing [01:01:05] happiness, but actually you’re chasing pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like. So you think it’s a good [01:01:10] thing to do? It’s a worthy cause.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s what makes you feel good inside, right? Like, you know, [01:01:15] ultimately, if you’re drinking loads, you aren’t feeling good. You think you are, but you know that you’re not.

Rhona Eskander: But [01:01:20] I think people mistake dopamine for happiness. And they don’t realise that it’s a high. And that’s the thing. [01:01:25] We’re constantly chasing highs because things are so accessible to us. We’re constantly chasing the [01:01:30] partner. That’s better. The job, the fame, the looks, whatever, whatever. And and [01:01:35] the thing is, is that we’ve also like we’ve come the compare and despair space is becoming more and [01:01:40] more vast. Because let’s face it, of course there’s going to be someone that’s better looking, more successful. [01:01:45] This, this, like any of us, like, you know, if we compare, you know, and I think that is dangerous [01:01:50] because people don’t get celebrated, like you said, enough for their authenticity and vulnerability. [01:01:55] And I just and it’s sad because sometimes I really see us taking steps [01:02:00] back. You know, when I see comments on Facebook and Instagram, not from me, but like on other [01:02:05] people’s posts, I’m like, things haven’t changed or like not enough people are doing the work, [01:02:10] you know?

Jaqueline Hurst: Well, I think that’s I think that’s it. I think not enough people are doing the work. And I think that’s really, really important, [01:02:15] you know, because.

Payman Langroudi: More are doing the work now than ever before. Right. Are they. Yeah. Yeah for sure. I mean. [01:02:20]

Rhona Eskander: We’re in a microcosm. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I used to be a dirty thing to even see a shrink or see a [01:02:25] therapist.

Rhona Eskander: Saying the mental.

Jaqueline Hurst: Health, the mental health. I mean, look, when I started, I remember saying to people, I’m a life [01:02:30] coach. And my dad at the time was like, what? Who’s going to knock on your door? What do you want? Right. He [01:02:35] was so baffled by it. And I remember writing to all the public schools, like all of them, saying, hi, I’m a life coach. [01:02:40] I’d like to come and give a talk to the boys so that I can talk to them about their emotions and how what they’re thinking. [01:02:45] And every one of these public schools wrote back to me and said, we’ve got a nurse on site. [01:02:50]

Rhona Eskander: Oh my God, it’s hilarious.

Jaqueline Hurst: And that look how far we’ve come.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So we’ve come a long way.

Jaqueline Hurst: But have we come [01:02:55] too far the other way? Now is the question is everything about mental health and oh my [01:03:00] God, I can’t get out of bed because this podcast is anxiety.

Rhona Eskander: Like you said, I think [01:03:05] you said like you quite rightly said, like victim mentality is the thing that really irks you. And I think [01:03:10] that that is it irks me too, because I’m like, you have rescued me.

Jaqueline Hurst: I mean, I’m not. Listen, [01:03:15] I know I’m very tough, but I do believe in feeling your feelings, right? Like, I’m a real believer [01:03:20] of, like, you know, you break up with your boyfriend’s fucking sit down and eat a tub of ice cream and cry for three [01:03:25] weeks, like you’ve got to have the feelings. And when you’re ready, then you make the change. [01:03:30] Yeah, yeah. So that’s really important, you know. But the victim mentality thing. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Because blaming everyone [01:03:35] else. Blaming your life.

Jaqueline Hurst: And not owning your part in these things. It’s really important.

Payman Langroudi: You know what though? You know, like [01:03:40] you said, when you see a family of four all on their phones and you [01:03:45] said about comparing yourself and obviously social media, you end up comparing more. [01:03:50] Yeah. It’s true. But do you do you both recognise here that there was always those [01:03:55] things? I mean, whether or not they were on the phone, maybe that same family [01:04:00] of four would be sitting.

Jaqueline Hurst: Non-stop.

Payman Langroudi: Talking to each other?

Jaqueline Hurst: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. Comparison [01:04:05] wise? Yeah. It’s not every morning, every time you flick your phone, but maybe back then you [01:04:10] used to turn up at a wedding and your clothes weren’t the same as. You know.

Rhona Eskander: What.

Payman Langroudi: I mean? Comparison has always [01:04:15] existed.

Rhona Eskander: Of course, of course, of course. But I think that there’s sometimes, like, a [01:04:20] break from it. You know, like, for example, even if you want to, to dissociate from somebody [01:04:25] toxic in your life, like back in the day, if I fell out with someone in my teenage hood or my 20s, I’m like, [01:04:30] cool. They’re not in my life and I don’t have access to anything they’re doing or what they’re doing, and that’s a decision. Now [01:04:35] this happens. Like you might be tempted, like every now and then just to be like, what are they up to? Like, [01:04:40] you break up with someone. Are they dating someone new? You know, I mean, like, you’ve just got all of this. That just [01:04:45] doesn’t help that whole self-preservation thing. And that’s just my view, because you’ve got the temptations [01:04:50] there. And being human. Sure, I don’t put myself to constantly looking, but every now and then I might [01:04:55] slip and be like, what’s this person doing and stuff? And I think the accessibility to these different things [01:05:00] makes it more difficult. I think.

Payman Langroudi: Like the narcissist life coach, that guy. [01:05:05]

Rhona Eskander: No, I actually laughed. I actually laugh, I looked at his LinkedIn the [01:05:10] other day and I was like, anyone that pays this chump, I feel sorry for him, you know? Um.

Jaqueline Hurst: It happens. [01:05:15]

Rhona Eskander: So I want to ask you something because I think this is really important. If you could go back and have a conversation [01:05:20] with your younger self at her lowest point, what would you tell her?

Jaqueline Hurst: I would say to her, it’s [01:05:25] going to get better than you could ever imagine, you know? And I do [01:05:30] really believe that the extremes that I went through in my life, I mean, extremes, was [01:05:35] for a reason, you know. And that all of that. And I realised that I was like as I got [01:05:40] into coaching and started my business, I was like, now I get it. Like, now I get why [01:05:45] that path was so tough. And, you know, I’m grateful for it.

Rhona Eskander: Do you really believe [01:05:50] that paths are written out for us?

Jaqueline Hurst: I have a feeling that, you know, we [01:05:55] probably choose what we want before we get here. We probably say, this [01:06:00] is what I want to learn. Having this human experience. Um. It’s possible. [01:06:05]

Rhona Eskander: Do you believe it?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Rhona Eskander: What do you believe?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve come [01:06:10] round to the notion of life. Will keep teaching you the lessons until you learn them. You know that [01:06:15] idea? But any any sort of supernatural kind of [01:06:20] angle on it just puts me off straight away. You know, like.

Jaqueline Hurst: Some people just don’t.

Payman Langroudi: But you do. You [01:06:25] know you do keep on making the same mistakes again and again and again until you learn not to make those mistakes [01:06:30] anymore. Life has a way of life has a way of grinding you into that situation. [01:06:35]

Jaqueline Hurst: People never learn. They just keep doing it.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s why I think the thing that terrifies me the most in the entire [01:06:40] world is the deathbed regrets. You know, the one that was written.

Jaqueline Hurst: Never wants [01:06:45] to have a deathbed regret.

Rhona Eskander: But the thing is, you see, you know the nurse that wrote the book. So she wrote a book [01:06:50] and she wrote like the most common regrets. And for me, it’s really reflective of the 9 to 5 [01:06:55] person that lived the cookie cutter life that thought would make them happy. And when you see [01:07:00] the regrets, it’s basically like not taking enough risks, not spending enough time with your family [01:07:05] and friends. Like all this.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff was living for other people, living.

Rhona Eskander: For other [01:07:10] people’s.

Payman Langroudi: Expectations. Expectations?

Jaqueline Hurst: What a terrible way to live your life. I [01:07:15] mean.

Payman Langroudi: The most common regret on the deathbed.

Rhona Eskander: Do you find a lot of your clients experience that?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think they [01:07:20] care what other people think. Yeah, definitely. It’s a big thing about what other people think about [01:07:25] them, and they don’t want to disappoint people. Women, especially big people, pleasing all of the stuff. You’ve got to [01:07:30] unpack it, right? You don’t have to live like that. That’s so, so important. Yeah, it’s it’s [01:07:35] common.

Rhona Eskander: So do you say now that you live by your own rules?

Jaqueline Hurst: You know, my friends would laugh [01:07:40] at you saying that because, like, I am the personification. If that’s the right word of that, [01:07:45] like I do, I, you know, I’m obviously I’m very empathetic and I’m kind, [01:07:50] but I also live a life that I’m comfortable with, and you all can do what you want with that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [01:07:55] What does success actually mean to you now?

Jaqueline Hurst: Peace. [01:08:00] I think it’s all about being peace within myself. And that to me is the biggest, you [01:08:05] know, and most successful thing ever. I think one, I can put my head down at night and, [01:08:10] you know, have total peace. I feel I feel really grateful for that. [01:08:15] Yeah, I’ve worked hard for it.

Rhona Eskander: And you deserve it because you’re amazing. And [01:08:20] I want to ask you lastly as well. What is the future? [01:08:25] What does the future hold? What can we we be excited about in Jacqueline’s world?

Jaqueline Hurst: Do you know what I just [01:08:30] I have to tell you, when my dad passed away last year in August, it was a life changing [01:08:35] event for me. And if I, you know, I always have been a life grabber and a life [01:08:40] lover. But watching somebody you love, especially a parent, pass like that, it gives [01:08:45] you a whole new perspective on what you want to do with your life. You know, for me, [01:08:50] there’s lots of things that I think about doing. You know, the second book for sure, we [01:08:55] talked about that just as I sat down. I think that’s, you know, I’ve got to get around to doing that. That’s really important. And [01:09:00] to have, you know, to spend, which is what I do, real quality time, the people I love, that makes [01:09:05] me happy. I took my mom for a walk yesterday after this operation. She’s had, and her eyes are quite blurry and [01:09:10] so she had to like, hold my arm and blah blah blah. And we stopped and we looked at these beautiful flowers [01:09:15] and one of the garden squares, and I was laughing and I said, so this is what they mean when they say, stop and smell the roses. [01:09:20] So to me that stuff’s really important, which is quality time and being present with the people that I [01:09:25] love.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I think there’s something so profound. I’m so close to my parents, especially my dad. There’s [01:09:30] something so profound about watching your parents age. You know, there’s this sense of, like, vulnerability. [01:09:35] And sometimes my dad’s almost 80, and it is it’s so precious to spend these [01:09:40] moments. It really, really is. Yeah. So important.

Jaqueline Hurst: So important because you never, ever want to say, I [01:09:45] wish I had. I was really lucky. I got one month with my dad. I was with him at the hospital 24 [01:09:50] over seven. I didn’t leave his side and I got to tell him everything I wanted to say, and I know that he got to [01:09:55] do the same for me. And that is one of the greatest gifts of this, you know, awful [01:10:00] experience that we’re all going to go through. It was one of the greatest gifts that I got to have that opportunity [01:10:05] to have, you know, spent that time with him. So, yeah, like spend time with [01:10:10] people you love. Be present. It’s a really powerful thing.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I love that so much. And if people want to find you, Jacqueline, [01:10:15] can you just tell us your handles?

Jaqueline Hurst: Okay. So my website’s Jacqueline Hurst. Com My Instagram is [01:10:20] Jacqueline underscore Hurst underscore. My school is the lifeclass.com [01:10:25] and the book is called how to Do You, which is available on Amazon and iTunes and [01:10:30] all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: Quickly, before we wrap up the question of how to do you specifically [01:10:35] you what are some tips to like, say, how do I unpack me, the [01:10:40] real me, rather than the sort of, uh, layers of things that we build on top?

Jaqueline Hurst: So [01:10:45] I think meditation is a really powerful tool to sit down and get to know yourself a little bit better and learn how to [01:10:50] quieten your mind. Um, being really conscious and aware of what you’re thinking, really important. [01:10:55] And how are you living your life? Ask yourself that question like, am I living a life to [01:11:00] keep other people happy? Or am I being true and authentic to myself? Living authentically, [01:11:05] living. Being true to yourself is a really beautiful way to live. And unpacking that is [01:11:10] really, really important.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect. Thank you so much, Jack.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been wonderful.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you for having me. [01:11:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really believe [00:00:05] in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] Enlightened Online Training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly. How to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get [00:00:30] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Amal Hourani [00:00:45] to the podcast. Amara is a specialist Endodontist had a few [00:00:50] endodontists on and uh, I actually I was at the PDSA recently [00:00:55] and I was talking to the youngsters saying, what do you want to do? And very few people want [00:01:00] to become endodontist at that age. But all the Endodontist I know are very, very happy with [00:01:05] their choice. And so it’s nice to talk to them. So I want to get into some of endo itself [00:01:10] as well. But massive pleasure to have you man.

Ammar Al Hourani: Thank you so much for having me here.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a long time [00:01:15] coming. I remember the first time we contacted each other was like, maybe just after Covid. [00:01:20]

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. I don’t think I was in the right headspace for it at that point. I think now [00:01:25] I’m in a good place to do this. But yeah, you contacted me two years ago. No chance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it was [00:01:30] around that time. Maybe. Maybe a bit longer. I just remember the endo guys otherwise known as the Endo guy. [00:01:35] Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: It could be a play on words, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a clever thing to call [00:01:40] yourself something, you know, become memorable.

Ammar Al Hourani: That’s a good. That’s a good name. I think it’s from the falafel guys in America. [00:01:45] Oh, is it, is it?

Payman Langroudi: Is that what your kind [00:01:50] of Scottish dude? In a way. So you came over from Syria? [00:01:55]

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, my parents were living in Saudi Arabia at the time and as a doctor. So I think [00:02:00] during the 80s, the the tick out of Syria is to be a professional. And I think a lot of people were [00:02:05] going to to Saudi Arabia because that’s where the wealth was. And I think that was like a launch pad [00:02:10] for a lot of people to go to the West as well.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go to one of those international schools in Saudi? [00:02:15]

Ammar Al Hourani: No, it was no. I went to nursery school in Syria for a little while. That’s how I can speak Arabic, I suppose, because [00:02:20] of that, thankfully.

Payman Langroudi: So you yourself didn’t live in Saudi much.

Ammar Al Hourani: For maybe [00:02:25] three years, maybe three, three years. Four years. Yeah. Not not a long time. Very small period of time. So I don’t really remember. [00:02:30]

Payman Langroudi: But you must remember getting to Glasgow.

Ammar Al Hourani: We didn’t come to Glasgow straight away. We came [00:02:35] to a small town called Bellshill which is just outside Glasgow. It’s in an area in Lanarkshire. [00:02:40]

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember that as a.

Ammar Al Hourani: Six year old? Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I couldn’t speak the language and have a clue what was going on. And you went from [00:02:45] Syria, which is, you know, it’s quite a nice place. Damascus. When I was a kid, to a much more, I would [00:02:50] suppose, a developed. What year was it? I was five, so what year was that? 90, [00:02:55] I don’t know, 1990, maybe 1991, 1991. Yeah, probably 86. [00:03:00] 91. Yeah. About. Right. So yeah, it was good. I didn’t I didn’t speak English, [00:03:05] didn’t have a clue, didn’t know what was going on. Um, and at the time we used to have like, uh, you know, [00:03:10] extra support at school to teach you the language, which was really good. My parents spoke good English, to be fair. So they did [00:03:15] teach us quite a lot. And my dad was always quite forward thinking. We always lived in very white neighbourhoods so [00:03:20] that we picked up the language. So we never really lived in any mixed neighbourhoods. So you picked up language [00:03:25] really quickly. Um, and then we travelled a lot with my dad all over Scotland because he’s a doctor.

Payman Langroudi: Kind [00:03:30] of doctor.

Ammar Al Hourani: Paediatrics. Uh, so he did the specialist training. So we were in Aberdeen. So [00:03:35] when Bellshill. Then we went up to Inverness for a little period of time, then lived in Aberdeen for ten years, and [00:03:40] then he got his consultant job in Stirling and that’s where we went from 1998 onwards [00:03:45] we’ve been in Stirling, which is between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Payman Langroudi: How do you identify?

Ammar Al Hourani: How do I [00:03:50] identify myself? Yeah, I would say I’m definitely a Scot for sure. Yeah, I feel more like a Scot than [00:03:55] I do an Arab, if I’m being honest. But I’m quite. You know, I’ve got that. I’m proud to be [00:04:00] an Arab. I’m proud to have that sort of lineage. But I definitely think like a Scot, I talk like one. [00:04:05] I definitely think like a Brit. Um, so I’ve always sort of I’m very proud to be from here, but I’m [00:04:10] also proud to have that sort of the nice parts of being an Arab as well. So it’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the falafels.

Ammar Al Hourani: Falafels, [00:04:15] the shower, the flat tyre.

Payman Langroudi: And have you been back to Syria at all?

Ammar Al Hourani: Uh, [00:04:20] last time was we, we used to go twice a year. Every year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, we used to go twice a year. Every single year because [00:04:25] my parents wanted us to learn the language. So I used to go quite a lot and I loved it. Really great. I did [00:04:30] my my dad was going to move back when I was just about going to secondary school. So I lived [00:04:35] there for about a year, year and a half. So I did my secondary schooling because in Syria you can’t go from primary school to secondary school unless you [00:04:40] pass an exam in primary school. So I did that primary schooling and then yeah, I was getting to secondary [00:04:45] school and I think my mum put pressure on my dad to stay here. So then we stayed here, which was I think that was a [00:04:50] good decision in hindsight. Otherwise we would have been lost.

Payman Langroudi: When did dentistry come into the [00:04:55] equation?

Ammar Al Hourani: At no point did they want to be a dentist. So I finished my. [00:05:00] So when I did my secondary schooling in Scotland, I got one of the highest marks in economics. [00:05:05] I actually got a scholarship for LSE to go and do economics at.

Payman Langroudi: Age Teen.

Ammar Al Hourani: Age Scotland. [00:05:10] You do your Highers a year before A-levels. So it’s it’s a [00:05:15] different system. Yeah. 17, 16, 16, 17. It’s the Scottish [00:05:20] Highers which is different. Works a little bit differently. And I got Scot. Yeah I got an interview came down. So you [00:05:25] know I met the chancellor of the Bank of England. That was your prize at the time which was good. Got [00:05:30] a scholarship. So what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened?

Ammar Al Hourani: Well, you come up, you come from a middle eastern background. [00:05:35] So your.

Payman Langroudi: Parents curtailed.

Ammar Al Hourani: The only the only professions that exist is medicine, [00:05:40] dentistry, engineering, law. So that was like, you know, do [00:05:45] something that has a career. You’re helping people, you know. I don’t think I think it was an alien concept. [00:05:50] Economics, I loved it, I thought it was really nice, but for them it was an alien concept. So it did [00:05:55] work experience with my dad’s a doctor and didn’t really enjoy anything in medicine, and it was at the time it was his [00:06:00] friend who said, come and come and watch me do what I do as a dentist. I like the gadgets. I [00:06:05] thought it was quite a good thing. So I’d done my application for Ucas at the time. I don’t know if Ucas still exists, but [00:06:10] for medicine, and I changed it overnight to do dentistry and I applied to dental schooling.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:06:15] of that work experience.

Ammar Al Hourani: Just the work experience and because, you know, I was curtailed into a small group of [00:06:20] professions which was accepted by my parents, I suppose. So, um, yeah. So I ended [00:06:25] up doing dentistry, and actually, it’s been good. I’ve never regretted it really, ever since.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to go there. [00:06:30] Actually, that question of we all get curtailed somewhat. I [00:06:35] mean, it’s funny, I speak to some people, they say, I wish my parents had guided me more.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, my parents were.

Payman Langroudi: Not generally [00:06:40] Middle Easterners getting massive guidance, too much guidance. But where [00:06:45] I’m really going with it is you’ve got children. What degree of sort of [00:06:50] guidance are you giving? How old are they?

Ammar Al Hourani: Five and nine.

Payman Langroudi: All right. Too young, too young. But [00:06:55] you’ll get to it, right? Well, people say these lovely things like, I’m going to just let the kid do what they [00:07:00] love. Yeah. But the reality is not that many kids love very much. Like there [00:07:05] are a few. Many are just kind of following the path of least resistance and have no idea [00:07:10] what they want to do. So then it comes to you to then say something. Yeah. You know, they actually ask [00:07:15] for your advice. So what’s your advice? I mean, what is it advice, is it or are you going [00:07:20] to be quite forceful as your parents were?

Ammar Al Hourani: No, I think my parents weren’t really that forceful. I think they just wanted me to have [00:07:25] a good career, to be honest and in.

Payman Langroudi: A forceful way. In a.

Ammar Al Hourani: Forceful way. I mean, what do you know, at the age of 16 [00:07:30] or 17, what do you know really? I mean, I think I quite like the American concept, where at least you do a degree first, you mature a little bit, [00:07:35] and then you come up with your own ideas in life as to what your path in life would look like. I think at 16, what [00:07:40] do you know? Like you see your next door neighbour with a nice car, or you see your dad with good friends or the accountant that’s doing [00:07:45] okay, you know, and that’s that sort of guides.

Payman Langroudi: You imagine we fast forward ten years and literally your son [00:07:50] or daughter is saying, dad, what should I do? What should I do? What do you reckon you’d say?

Ammar Al Hourani: I’d [00:07:55] say, um, honestly, I would actually say to them, go and do medicine or dentistry or something along those lines, [00:08:00] do a professional degree.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so sad, isn’t it?

Ammar Al Hourani: It is. I think I think the only reason is because I think it’s it’s [00:08:05] a career. You know, there’s very few careers out there that, you know, you can work in and build your way up something. [00:08:10] A lot of it is sort of you get a degree and then you go, right, I’ve just done I don’t know, I’m going to make up a [00:08:15] degree like history. And then you end up working in retail and you’re like, how is that? How did that. Does that make sense? I’ve done history [00:08:20] and then I end up being a lawyer and you’re like, how did that happen? You know, so I think it’s a good career if you, you know, because if [00:08:25] I’ve done okay with it and maybe in the future if I have some assets with it, maybe it’s quite good to pass it down to someone [00:08:30] or some, you know, my daughter or my son, just to continue with the concept. So it gives them a dignified [00:08:35] life, I suppose. I don’t know, maybe I’m right, maybe I’m wrong.

Payman Langroudi: I find it a bit sad. I find it a bit sad. And I hear [00:08:40] exactly what you’re saying and I’ve given similar advice. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve given similar advice to my kids, but [00:08:45] I find it a bit sad because there would be no photographers. There would be no movie maker. [00:08:50] Movie makers. Um, some of the richest people in the world now are [00:08:55] gamers. Yeah. Gamers or developers? It developers, it all sorts of things. [00:09:00] Right. And we end up and I actually when, when, when I was talking to my my [00:09:05] son, my son kind of knows what he wants to do. He wants to do aerospace engineering. Sounds great actually. Actually it’s [00:09:10] not you know, it’s a lot of it’s defence really annoys me a little bit. You know, you spend your whole life telling your kid war is [00:09:15] wrong and then it’s a lot of it’s defence. He did he did his first work experience. It was like [00:09:20] missile guidance system, right? I was like, oh shit with GPS. But [00:09:25] my daughter doesn’t really know. And I’m kind of saying, hey, why don’t you be a dentist? And and as I [00:09:30] say it, one part of me thinks, hey, great, because dentistry has been good to us and [00:09:35] we can see. But another side of me says, hey, how? How is it that, you know, what do all these [00:09:40] other people do? Go and end up doing this and that and the other? And did I fail in some way [00:09:45] insomuch as I didn’t introduce her to enough stuff that she didn’t end up having [00:09:50] some sort of passion in some area that then she could go into. And [00:09:55] the best advice for your kid, I think, is just to do whatever very well.

Ammar Al Hourani: I [00:10:00] would agree, I think the only reason why I was saying medicine or dentistry is because I come from that type of background. So I can only advise [00:10:05] them on what I know. And so medicine dentistry feels familiar to me. It’s given my brother a good [00:10:10] life and my parents a good life. Yeah, but you’ve got patience.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got a patient who’s a banker who’s got even a better life, right?

Ammar Al Hourani: Probably. [00:10:15] And that’s that. So I can only guide on what I know. You know, I can’t guide on the unknown because I can say, go and be a [00:10:20] banker, and you might end up being broke. I don’t know, you know. Yeah. Or losing Jane’s money because of a bad investment, and then you’ll [00:10:25] feel bad about it. You know what I mean? So I can’t really guide on something I know nothing about. So I can only give them guidance [00:10:30] on what I know. But if they find something better, I think they’ll always know that I’ll be there to support them no matter what. So [00:10:35] I think that gives that sort of safety net. So you can just go and experiment maybe a little bit more. I think because I came from [00:10:40] a second generation family, maybe I didn’t have that support network as such, you know, whereas [00:10:45] now I think I’m more comfortable. Maybe I’ve done a little bit, possibly better than my dad, so they can probably experiment [00:10:50] a little bit more. Maybe I wasn’t in that generation where I could experiment, or my parents just came to this [00:10:55] country and that is what they think is the best.

Payman Langroudi: Survival was the key to.

Ammar Al Hourani: Survival is like always like, you know, where are we going to [00:11:00] get you know, I don’t know maybe about your parents. It’s similar to sometimes it’s my parents, but it’s like, you know, you never [00:11:05] know. You know, tomorrow they might tell you to all leave. You know, it’s always having that. It’s not an abundance mindset. It’s a scarcity mindset. [00:11:10] Whereas I think we’ve come up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I mean, we we were running away from revolution. [00:11:15] And so when you’re running away from revolution, safety’s all you want isn’t it. And so safety [00:11:20] ends up being a profession.

Ammar Al Hourani: Well, that’s the thing. I think it’s the same with my parents. I think at that time it was [00:11:25] the I think the 80s and 90s in Syria. You know, they had the uprising at that point as well. And I think a lot [00:11:30] of really good professionals left the country and they have that. They’ve got, you know, the military police and, you [00:11:35] know, secret services and all that sort of stuff they were running from. So I think they didn’t want us to live that fear [00:11:40] they had. But I think in a way it sort of dissipates into you anyway, so you sort of have it to a lower [00:11:45] degree. Exactly. But now my kids don’t have that because I don’t really I don’t I don’t feel I don’t [00:11:50] have that problem to deal with. Does that make sense? I’m sort of lucky from that respect. So I thanked my parents for that for 100%, for [00:11:55] giving.

Payman Langroudi: Your kids haven’t ever lived in Scotland or have they?

Ammar Al Hourani: No, they lived in London.

Payman Langroudi: So they haven’t got any Scottish [00:12:00] feeling about.

Ammar Al Hourani: Zero. I think they’ve gone to Scotland a handful of times. How funny. Yeah, [00:12:05] I know nothing about Scotland.

Payman Langroudi: So you went to Glasgow? What kind of a student were you? Number one and [00:12:10] number two. Around what point did you think I’m going to specialise? [00:12:15] And around what point did you think? Endo?

Ammar Al Hourani: Uh, yeah. [00:12:20] Glasgow was good fun. Great city. I don’t know if you’ve been to Glasgow, I love it. It’s my favourite city. Favourite city [00:12:25] in the UK? Um, I was an average student. I don’t think I was in any way, shape or form spectacular. You know, [00:12:30] my grades were decent. I knew my stuff clinically, I was good, my knowledge was decent, but I wasn’t like an outstanding [00:12:35] student. Nothing like that. You know, some some of the guys in my year were far better for sure, [00:12:40] no doubt about it. Uh, and though I was really lucky, so Glasgow had a at that [00:12:45] time, we were sort of the guinea pig year because the year before was nearly didn’t get all their degrees. Uh, [00:12:50] something to do with the GDC or not following the GDC guide. So the GDC basically wrote our curriculum in essence and [00:12:55] ran our program. So we were lucky in the last two years we did a lot of outreach. So you do specialist clinics [00:13:00] and then outreach. So we were doing for about two years really before we even graduated, which was great. At [00:13:05] the time, there was a guy called Prof. Murray called Murray. Uh, had well, I think he was head of research at [00:13:10] the time. He taught me endo and we had the specialist sort of clinics, and I would [00:13:15] get one on one because a lot of times the students maybe didn’t have a patient or didn’t turn up. So I had patients and I [00:13:20] just did it and I really enjoyed it. I started to get get into it. I didn’t think it was going to be my sort of cup [00:13:25] of tea because believe it or not, I actually wanted to become an orthodontist. I didn’t actually want to become an endodontist. Arthur was always my [00:13:30] thing.

Payman Langroudi: But specialising was always in your head, right? So it was another Middle Eastern [00:13:35] kind of.

Ammar Al Hourani: I guess it’s a paediatrician. Yeah. My brother was going into orthopaedics at the time as well. [00:13:40] So I felt like it can be a general dentist. You know, it’s one of those things. So it plays on your brain. You sort of compete in a sense [00:13:45] as well.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, I.

[TRANSITION]: Get it, I get it.

Ammar Al Hourani: Um, so yeah, I mean, I did my first couple of years, it [00:13:50] was called a senior house officer at the time I was in called DCT. That was the old currency. I did that for a couple of years. That was good. I had an under rotation [00:13:55] within it, which was nice, like.

Payman Langroudi: Restorative ones.

Ammar Al Hourani: Restorative with an endo. It was a massive endo slant to it, like cutting [00:14:00] down the waiting list essentially. So I was really good at it, I enjoyed it at that point. My trainer was had an MSC in Endo, [00:14:05] so he taught me endo.

[TRANSITION]: Oh wow.

Ammar Al Hourani: So that was the first time I started to understand Endo, because he was making me do it on the rubber [00:14:10] dam, sodium hypochlorite. You know, he had all the gadgets. So I got to play with it and I got a lot [00:14:15] of the endo thrown at me because no one wanted to do it in the National Health. So I got to do a lot of endo. So I got good at it, to be fair [00:14:20] in that respect. Um, I then worked in practice for a few years. My sister was [00:14:25] a little bit unwell, so I had to go back home. And so I worked in general practice. I started taking on a lot of the endo [00:14:30] referrals in-house, enjoyed it, bought my own mortar and all that sort of stuff. It was all the expensive stuff. You didn’t have any [00:14:35] of the sort of brands that you have now. You know all the Japanese and Korean brands you didn’t have that. It was mostly [00:14:40] the German stuff, so you had to buy the expensive stuff, basically. But all that stuff enjoy doing. Endo got really [00:14:45] good at it, went to some courses, it was good. And then when I came back from the refugee camps, there was a job that came out as [00:14:50] a staff grade in Endo and that’s when I realised I wanted to become an endodontist.

Ammar Al Hourani: It’s sort of the profession. [00:14:55] I don’t have to explain. It’s like the speciality chooses you over time. You sort of fall into it because you do it [00:15:00] so much. It’s sort of you go, you know what, let’s just do it. And that was the first time I enjoyed going to work. I [00:15:05] started doing that all day, every day. And I loved my job. It was because down to a guy called Robert Philpot, he’s [00:15:10] a consultant at the time and Endo at Glasgow, and he’d just come out of Eastman, gone to Australia, come back, became a consultant [00:15:15] at Glasgow and he was amazing. It was just contagious. He made it lovable and so [00:15:20] he was the driving force behind me becoming a specialist, basically this guy. So and even when in my thesis, [00:15:25] I actually wrote his name as the guy who who made me love Endo. So it’s who you meet in life I think guides [00:15:30] you. And also the profession seems to choose you. I don’t know how to explain that especially chooses you down the line. [00:15:35] Yeah. And so that’s how I sort of became an endodontist. And I’ve never, ever regretted it. I love my [00:15:40] job. Get buzz out of it every day. I feel it’s like a little hobby. I don’t actually feel like it’s a job.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll [00:15:45] come back to the end. Tell me about the refugee camp.

Ammar Al Hourani: 2013. [00:15:50] Me and my dad went to the refugee camps to work for a little while, and then a few other guys went along [00:15:55] with it. We had two dental clinics that we ran 24 hours a day, pretty much [00:16:00] in Rehaniya, which was a town between the city and the Turkish border, had 25,000 [00:16:05] people in it. No services. So then they opened up a hospital. It was a Kuwaiti hospital called the Orient. [00:16:10] My dad opened up a paediatric unit. There was an eye like a prosthetic [00:16:15] eye clinic as well, because a lot of people lost their eyes. That was next door to us. We did that on and off for about nine months. [00:16:20] Brilliant experience. It’s an absolute like.

Payman Langroudi: What was what was the equipment like? Was it. [00:16:25]

[TRANSITION]: Zero?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. It’s what you get in most refugee camps, you know, like the [00:16:30] heat steriliser and, you know, the basic forceps, some drills, some files. You know, a lot of companies, [00:16:35] to be fair, our sponsor does. We got a lot of donations, but we were running out of money all the time, like we were digging into our own [00:16:40] pockets pretty much every single month because the volume was sensational. And [00:16:45] the problem was, when you go to a refugee camp, it’s a very unusual. You’ve got a very middle, [00:16:50] upper class or middle class families that now live in a refugee camp. They still have the mentality [00:16:55] of, I want the hand on the crown, I want the white filling I want. They don’t seem to have [00:17:00] realised that they’re actually now living in a refugee. They’ve lost everything. Does that make sense? And I think it’s a part of them still [00:17:05] wants to hold on to their identity. So they’ll come to you saying, oh, I’ve got this thing, can you do this? [00:17:10] Can you do.

[TRANSITION]: This?

Ammar Al Hourani: And I’m like, I don’t have I don’t have that type of material here.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point. Yeah. Insomuch [00:17:15] as we feel like refugees are these downtrodden people.

[TRANSITION]: But [00:17:20] a lot of them.

Ammar Al Hourani: Are like me and you.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly like me.

Payman Langroudi: You forget. You forget that, you know, they were regular people, [00:17:25] professionals. Some of them were whose lives got overturned suddenly.

Ammar Al Hourani: Overnight, lost everything. Yeah, [00:17:30] yeah. Their teachers, doctors, I don’t know, pharmacists, you know, you name it, who’ve lost suddenly, lost [00:17:35] everything overnight because of a war. And so they’ve still got that mentality, [00:17:40] but in a refugee camp. And it’s very difficult. I mean, I sometimes it’s difficult to, to, to, to [00:17:45] work with them or achieve their ideal settings because I just didn’t have the materials [00:17:50] and that wasn’t that just wasn’t the right place to do it. You know, what.

Payman Langroudi: Did it teach you? Do you do you recommend [00:17:55] all of us do it?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, because Rona does. Rona goes to [00:18:00] Lesbos.

Ammar Al Hourani: I saw that. Yeah, it was very impressive. Yeah. I mean, like, listen, before I went, I was just [00:18:05] a I was a dentist. I was making good money in Scotland, to be fair. Very good money for my age group [00:18:10] playing football, chilling out with the guys. You know, like all of us. I was pretty selfish. Self-centred, [00:18:15] you know what I mean? Like the the life you thought you were. The whole world is based around you, basically. [00:18:20] And then you suddenly turn up to these places and you’re like, oh my God, I’m. What am I thinking? [00:18:25] And I did a lot of growing up, a lot of growing because you get a lot of time in silence where you just sit [00:18:30] with your own mind and you’re like, what am I wanting to do with my life? Because at that point I was sort of doing stuff, [00:18:35] but I didn’t really have a plan. Does that make sense? I was sort of like walking to nowhere. I was, you know, I was like, [00:18:40] blindfolded. I didn’t really know where my life was going. Didn’t know where my career was going. I was just doing a little bit of everything [00:18:45] in the hope that I sort of landed on something. And that was the first time where I sat down and [00:18:50] had a lot of time to think. And I was like, you know what number of things I’ve realised? One, [00:18:55] I’m not all that, you know, I’m actually a speckle. Two, [00:19:00] I’ve got all the resources in the world, but I’m not using it. Why not? Three people would love to be in my [00:19:05] shoes. Why am I not taking full advantage of that situation? And what was my limiting factor? [00:19:10] Me, I was just scared of taking a risk. And actually I realised that I also [00:19:15] had a lot of, you know, not great friends as well. So I had to get rid of some baggage. You know, you realise [00:19:20] very quickly, actually, there’s a lot of people holding me back. And four, am I being authentic? I’m not being myself. I’m [00:19:25] trying to please everyone around me, but not me. Does that make sense? And so it.

Payman Langroudi: Does. I mean, it’s interesting [00:19:30] that that sort of break, it takes a stop and a break and a change for [00:19:35] you to think about your life. I mean, Covid was a similar thing, wasn’t it? Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: It wasn’t really that ambitious either, to be fair. [00:19:40] So I came back as a completely different animal. I wanted it all not because I was greedy, but I was like, [00:19:45] you know what? I’ve got a great I’ve got a golden ticket in the UK. I could do, I could do whatever I want, genuinely.

Payman Langroudi: What about [00:19:50] the stories of the refugees? I mean, what were some of the things that you heard and how [00:19:55] long were people in that camp for?

Ammar Al Hourani: Years.

Payman Langroudi: Years and years.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Like you’ve got [00:20:00] swathes of population now who’ve never, you know, kids probably older than my kids now who’ve never had [00:20:05] an education, a formal education. They’ve been born in a refugee camp, never been to school.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ammar Al Hourani: Probably never seen a pencil [00:20:10] case. First day I turned up. I’ll never forget this day. First [00:20:15] day I turned up literally ten. 12. Dead bodies on the floor. Blood everywhere, screaming everywhere. I was like, [00:20:20] what am I doing here? And then I got called up by a two guys like, oh, we’ve got this guy who’s [00:20:25] been shot in the face. Can you come and take the bullet out? Like sorry. Sorry. [00:20:30] What? What? Why? Why do you want me to do this? You’re the most qualified. I was [00:20:35] like, well, you two are wearing white coats. Why can’t you do it? Oh. We’re vets.

Payman Langroudi: Wow. [00:20:40]

Ammar Al Hourani: I’m like, okay. And so that’s the type of stuff. It’s just a bit of shrapnel I removed from his face. [00:20:45] But, you know, I’ve done a bit of Max Fox before, but again, you don’t deal with, um, with [00:20:50] gunshot wounds in Max Fox. That just doesn’t happen in the UK. Really? That type of violence. Maybe in bigger cities, but [00:20:55] not in Dundee, where I did it for a period of time. In Preston, you don’t get that type of stuff. So [00:21:00] yeah, it was uh, yeah, you see some horrors, but then you get used to it. I don’t know how to explain it. You become sort [00:21:05] of habituated to bad, bad news, you know, and it becomes part of your life. For a period of time, it was very cold. [00:21:10] That was another thing as well. Oh, really? Turkey’s freezing like it is cold.

Payman Langroudi: And what were your, like [00:21:15] living conditions?

Ammar Al Hourani: We lived in, uh, like, either we lived in a caravan or we lived in, like, a [00:21:20] little room that we had.

Payman Langroudi: Like you were in the camp itself. You weren’t, like, outside in a hotel or something, like. No, [00:21:25] no.

Ammar Al Hourani: There was no hotel. Where do you go? There’s no like I can’t. I can’t say like Payman. Let’s. Let’s meet up at that coffee shop [00:21:30] tomorrow. There’s no coffee shop.

Payman Langroudi: Are you in the camp? In a in a little caravan thing?

Ammar Al Hourani: Pretty much. Yeah. I can’t just go. [00:21:35] Oh, let’s grab dinner tonight or we’ll go to that restaurant. There’s no restaurant. You know, it just doesn’t exist. [00:21:40] It’s not. It’s not your normal day to day life. There’s nothing. It doesn’t make. It took me a good month or so just to get my head around it, to be [00:21:45] honest with you, because it just didn’t make any sense. Then after that, you you. It’s beautiful how the human body [00:21:50] just develops. It just becomes normal. It’s like, oh, you know, this this. I’m in a disaster [00:21:55] zone, basically. But it was good. It was good fun. I learned a lot from it. I learned I made some really good people, which I keep [00:22:00] in touch with to till today. And it made me grow up. I think had I not done it, I wouldn’t be the person I am today. [00:22:05] No chance I’d be. I’d be a very different person now. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then you [00:22:10] come back with this new sort of mindset of you’re going to make the most of yourself. [00:22:15] Yeah. And you’d already done a bunch of endo, I guess. And so now you was [00:22:20] it. Now you decide I’m going to specialise and be, you know.

Ammar Al Hourani: So like I took that staff. Great job in Glasgow for [00:22:25] about nine months. I met this guy, Bob Philpot. Robert. Hi, Robert. If he’s listening to this, [00:22:30] probably won’t, but, um. And he was just amazing. And so it was just a waiting [00:22:35] list initiative, essentially, where you just reduce the waiting list for Glasgow Dental School so that for about nine months [00:22:40] loved it. Used to go to work with a buzz every single day. Every day. Enjoyed it. And I was like, you know what? This [00:22:45] is it. This is what I want to do. But the problem is, when my CV wasn’t strong enough, so I still had to go back to some maths facts, build [00:22:50] my CV to apply.

Payman Langroudi: Just to get in.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, it’s quite competitive getting to the end though. There was only maybe 8 to 12 places [00:22:55] a year so I didn’t get in for a couple of times. I got in the third time at Liverpool. [00:23:00] Um, I approached a guy called Fadi Jarrad. He was the head of department at Liverpool, started chatting [00:23:05] and yeah, I went for an interview, got in. So like, I thank him for essentially having [00:23:10] faith in me to bring me on to the program because at that point I was starting to give up hope. You know, getting into that program is hard, [00:23:15] you know? So he saw he saw something in me, I suppose. So, like I’m quite grateful for that. And then I got [00:23:20] in and just yeah, I just really enjoyed the experience. For four years it was three, three, three, four years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Part time. [00:23:25]

Ammar Al Hourani: Full time.

Payman Langroudi: Four years, part full time.

Ammar Al Hourani: So it was three years, but I had an extension to it. So I had [00:23:30] to do an extension for my doctorate because I didn’t finish it off in time. So I had to take.

Payman Langroudi: And you had to pay as well.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yes, sir. [00:23:35] Yeah. Pay money? No salary.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you pay for it?

Ammar Al Hourani: So I had [00:23:40] savings at the time, so I wasn’t lavish in my lifestyle, which was good. So I saved up a lot of my money, [00:23:45] which is good. So I used that. Um, I worked, yeah. So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday was in clinic. I stay [00:23:50] in a library. Well, not library, either a library or the common room that we had till about 11 doing my research or [00:23:55] from home. Thursday I’d go and work privately doing endo in Huddersfield and in Liverpool. [00:24:00] So I worked in a few clinics. Friday I would do the lectures that we [00:24:05] would get trained on a Friday or get our seminars on the Friday. Then I used to do the second on call, either at Preston [00:24:10] during the weekends, or I used to do the EDS emergency dental services in Morecambe. [00:24:15] Preston. Was that part.

Payman Langroudi: Of the.

Ammar Al Hourani: Course? No, no.

Payman Langroudi: That was trying.

Ammar Al Hourani: To save [00:24:20] some cash basically. Yeah. And then weekends at work. So I did that for three years. Literally never took [00:24:25] a day off.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ammar Al Hourani: And I had a kid at the time, so I didn’t. When I went into training, I didn’t really factor [00:24:30] in nursery school fees. Yeah. I didn’t factor in. I had a child or a wife. Does that make sense? I [00:24:35] didn’t factor in a family.

Payman Langroudi: When had you gotten married?

Ammar Al Hourani: 2014. [00:24:40] 2014.

Payman Langroudi: During all of this stuff? Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: So I came [00:24:45] back from refugee camps, met my wife, uh, got married at the time. My wife. Um, [00:24:50] yeah. And then the specialist training. And so, like, I had. Yeah, like a whole family [00:24:55] with me to deal with. I would definitely say do it if you’re single or just married with no kids, don’t [00:25:00] do it the way I did it. It’s really difficult on your marriage, for sure. It’s difficult [00:25:05] on a lot of things. It’s just you disappear. You disappear into thin air, essentially.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve spoken to a bunch [00:25:10] of specialists who talk about that sacrifice. Right. Um, at the same time, [00:25:15] it’s worth it, right? You know that.

Ammar Al Hourani: Well, it depends what’s worth it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: What is [00:25:20] worth it? What are you sacrificing? You know. So for me, uh, I just love my career. You [00:25:25] know, I’m quite young. I wanted to have a good life, to give my family a good life. I need to have a good life. Does [00:25:30] that make sense? So all permeates down. If you’ve got a good income, your family have a good income good, and so on and so on. [00:25:35] Uh, so yeah. So something had to give. To be fair, at the time, she was very supportive. She helped me out [00:25:40] tremendously. But it’s it puts a lot of stress on it as well. So special training [00:25:45] I would say do it if you’re not married and have kids, I definitely think so. If you’re going to do it afterwards, [00:25:50] I think it’s going to it’s a bit more tricky. You’re going to have to manage a lot more stuff, and it’s whether or not you [00:25:55] can manage it, you can come out the other end. That’s the difference.

Payman Langroudi: So then how much is the [00:26:00] course?

Ammar Al Hourani: It’s about 20 grand a year cash, so you have [00:26:05] to pay it in two instalments or three instalments, 20 grand plus your living costs, which is about another [00:26:10] average living cost at the moment. How much would you need? About a month. Three grand, maybe 3 or 4. It depends [00:26:15] where you live, I suppose. Yeah, but for for us we need about three grand a month. About three, three and a half grand [00:26:20] a month. We needed to just about get away with it every month, you know, rent, kids, schooling and all that sort [00:26:25] of stuff. And that was tight, you know, it was tight, but it was okay. And my parents helped, you know, she helped a little [00:26:30] bit as well. You know, it was good. Like everyone sort of chipped in. So we made it work. If you want to make it work, it will work.

Payman Langroudi: Liverpool’s [00:26:35] a good town. Oh great I love Liverpool.

Ammar Al Hourani: Brilliant city. Love it. Brilliant people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:26:40]

Ammar Al Hourani: Brilliant city. Good university. Yeah. It’s a very similar to Glasgow that the Celtic connection. The Irish [00:26:45] descent city you know ship making and stuff. So it felt home from home. It didn’t, I didn’t feel it’s [00:26:50] just the accent was a little bit difficult at the beginning to pick up. But after that it was all good. And it’s nice. It gets a bit. [00:26:55] Liverpool gets a bad rep. I don’t know why. It’s actually a great city. It’s not. It’s not that bad at all, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:27:00] it’s my favourite. I like Scousers, they’re just funny, good fun.

Ammar Al Hourani: They’re chilled out, salt [00:27:05] of the earth.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re right, like Glasgow people. I remember when I was on the road, I used to stay [00:27:10] in Liverpool, over Manchester and Glasgow over Edinburgh and [00:27:15] Glasgow and Edinburgh. I just couldn’t understand how like 40 minutes could make such a big difference [00:27:20] to the culture of these people. Man. Correct. Because I was young, I was young enough to want to like, go [00:27:25] and go out and see what’s going on in this city in Glasgow, always end up sitting on the pavement [00:27:30] with 30 people sharing pizza. Yeah that’s Glasgow. In Edinburgh I wouldn’t meet a [00:27:35] single person like no one, no one. And I couldn’t understand how it could be so, so different. Yeah, [00:27:40] I agree, but they are no even massively accents. Massively different.

Ammar Al Hourani: Edinburgh doesn’t have much of [00:27:45] an accent. Yeah, it’s very very, you know, Queen’s English.

Payman Langroudi: And the funny thing is from the outside [00:27:50] you always think Edinburgh is so beautiful, stunning. You know, you always think Edinburgh is the place to be in [00:27:55] Scotland. Definitely Glasgow from the outside because of how beautiful it is. Right. I mean, the.

Ammar Al Hourani: Heritage [00:28:00] site isn’t it? Edinburgh is one of the nicest cities in Europe, isn’t it? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. No, it [00:28:05] always I always think there are lots of areas of cities that are pretty, [00:28:10] but not a city with a whole thing is so beautiful, you know. It [00:28:15] is. You know, you can find a nice bit of London, a nice bit of anywhere, right? But the whole thing [00:28:20] is just.

Ammar Al Hourani: It’s a beautiful city. But then the problem with Edinburgh is you also walk in town. I don’t know if you’ve noticed. It’s very touristic [00:28:25] and then you sort of reach the end of the city. You’re suddenly walking down Princes Street and you’re like, right, I’ve reached the end. Yes, [00:28:30] Glasgow doesn’t have that. Glasgow is just it’s a fun city. It’s great. It’s got a little bit of danger, a [00:28:35] little bit of a little bit of intrigue. But people are brilliant. Good laugh. You can always have a [00:28:40] chat with a guy in a bus stop. It’s very therapeutic. Um, no, I love Glasgow, it’s [00:28:45] great. But my brother went to Edinburgh and so like we, we have that sort of Edinburgh Glasgow clash all the time, but [00:28:50] they’re both brilliant cities to be honest with you. But.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s four difficult years I guess. [00:28:55]

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You come out now, you’re a specialist.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do next? [00:29:00]

Ammar Al Hourani: Well, you come out unemployed. That’s essentially what happens. Yeah. You come out, you [00:29:05] don’t have a job. You know, it’s not like medicine. You come out and you know you will eventually get a consultant job or something. You know, [00:29:10] a locum job, or you’ll sort yourself out, you know, you’ll get a job. You’re never going to be unemployed. Basically, as a doctor here [00:29:15] was a specialist and I didn’t really have a job. So yeah, at the time I’d sort of, [00:29:20] um, it was a discussion I had with my wife at the time. And, you know, I was going back to London. She’s from London. [00:29:25] So we came down to London. It was either Scotland, stay in Manchester or go down to London, you know, uh, [00:29:30] Scotland, I think I would have done well, but it’s a much smaller market. Manchester [00:29:35] was good, but it was already getting really saturated. You know, there was a lot of specialists coming out because of the end of the MSC [00:29:40] programme. You had Sanj, who was teaching at Liverpool at the time. You’ve got Uclan coming along, so there’s a lot of dentists [00:29:45] special interest, maybe not as many specialists, but definitely a lot of dentists special interest. So it was starting to get a bit saturated. [00:29:50] Or then you go down to London and London. You know, no matter how people say, London will always [00:29:55] need more, you know, like it’s just it’s just an all consuming city. But [00:30:00] the problem was I started from zero because I know, like, who am I? I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know anyone.

Ammar Al Hourani: I didn’t know anyone. So [00:30:05] I had to take any job I got to. I had imposter syndrome because I wasn’t really I didn’t feel [00:30:10] like a specialist, you know, I didn’t have enough. I didn’t make enough mistakes to feel like a specialist. I didn’t. I [00:30:15] needed to make my mistakes, you know? I needed the volume. Three people had to buy you stuff [00:30:20] and believe in you because, you know, setting up an indoor referral.

Payman Langroudi: Is very.

Ammar Al Hourani: Expensive. Yeah. You’re looking at 30 [00:30:25] grand probably by the time you buy all this stuff. Probably more. Yeah. So, like, you know, if no one knew who I am and [00:30:30] I’ve got specialist badge and then I’m saying I’ve got me go and go and buy me 30 grand’s worth of stuff like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened? [00:30:35] How do you negotiate this?

Ammar Al Hourani: So some clinics approached me, which was great. I put adverts out, some [00:30:40] I sort of stumbled upon through friends and just grew it. And I was working in, I think at the time, like maybe [00:30:45] 12 different clinics.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ammar Al Hourani: In two days here. Two days there. Yeah. Like I was just all over the [00:30:50] place, and I was just. No one knew who I was. And, you know, there was a lot of big names already here. You know, people who’ve maybe [00:30:55] written some of the textbooks I was reading or, you know, using the file systems they’ve developed. So I was like, literally, [00:31:00] I was a nobody. You know, you definitely felt like a nobody. And it was a new city. I’m not from London. I [00:31:05] must admit, I don’t like London as a city. It’s not my it’s not my place. I like living outside London. I don’t like London [00:31:10] per se. I like for dinners and stuff going out, but definitely not living in it. So it was very foreign to me. I was [00:31:15] now a Scot who was living in London. Uh, didn’t know my left from my right. Uh, I wasn’t [00:31:20] making a great income. Yeah, I was it was a lot going on at the same time. So that’s when I started Dental guys, basically [00:31:25] that was the that was the whole launchpad of the whole thing to get my name out there. [00:31:30] Essentially. That was it to get referrals like that.

Payman Langroudi: I like how open you are with that. [00:31:35] Yeah. Um, but how come you weren’t making good money if you were working in 12 different clinics?

Ammar Al Hourani: That’s [00:31:40] one. The pricing structure probably wasn’t the best in some places. I was. Still, I didn’t feel like I was worth. [00:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: Maybe you weren’t charging enough.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, I wasn’t charging enough. I think I was I didn’t feel I was worth more [00:31:50] than £600. I’m not being funny. I’m charging a lot more now. But at the time, you know, I went from charging, [00:31:55] what, £200, £300 in the end in Huddersfield. Yeah. To then suddenly saying it’s £600. So for me it was [00:32:00] already.

Payman Langroudi: Sounded like a.

Ammar Al Hourani: Lot. And I’m like oh my god £600. You know that’s a lot of pressure. And so I [00:32:05] just didn’t feel ready for that sort of jump yet. I definitely had imposter syndrome, there’s no doubt about it, you know. And, [00:32:10] um, yeah. Then you start competing, you know, comparing yourself to other, more established endodontists [00:32:15] and you’re like, oh my God, am I ever going to get there? Am I? Who am I? What am I doing? Am I in the right [00:32:20] city? Should I leave? You know.

Payman Langroudi: So how long did it take before you felt like I’m actually, [00:32:25] you know, making progress.

Ammar Al Hourani: 3000 handles, 3000 handles. [00:32:30] Later, I think I felt like I was ready to rock and roll. I could probably do, you know, I felt I could do just about more [00:32:35] stuff to a relatively decent level.

Payman Langroudi: So how long did that take? A couple of years.

Ammar Al Hourani: About four years. [00:32:40] Three. Four years.

Payman Langroudi: Four years?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Three. Four years of travelling and working. You know, making some mistakes here [00:32:45] and there and everywhere. Not big mistakes, you know, small little mistakes here and there where your brain starts going. Oh, [00:32:50] I’ve been here before. Don’t do that. Or, you know, take that turn. Not that turn, you know. And all these little experience I would [00:32:55] have bought, you know, if you told me, pay 100 grand for five years experience, I would have paid you a hundred grand right there and then for five years experience. [00:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. All day.

Payman Langroudi: Long. I mean, you’re right to sort of correlate experience with mistakes. [00:33:05] Yeah. Because that’s what it is. There’s there’s no getting away from that 100%. [00:33:10] You can’t buy experience. It’s difficult. It’s difficult.

Ammar Al Hourani: Very difficult. So. [00:33:15]

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, we will talk about mistakes later. Yeah. [00:33:20] Let’s, let’s let’s get to Endo. Let’s let’s talk about endo now. Yeah. Um, [00:33:25] I don’t know. I haven’t really looked at it for 20 years, to tell you the truth. Yeah. [00:33:30] Um, but I kind of want to go down sort of in each area. [00:33:35] I want you to give one solid, like, amazing tip that would improve [00:33:40] anyone’s. Yeah. So in each area diagnosis. What is it about diagnosis [00:33:45] here that most of us don’t realise or should realise or.

Ammar Al Hourani: Listen to the patient? [00:33:50]

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Ammar Al Hourani: Listen to the patient. Honestly, the patient will tell you everything. See, [00:33:55] a lot of us jump to a conclusion by looking at a radiograph and the referral letter that’s been sent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:34:00]

Ammar Al Hourani: So you go. Oh, okay. It must be this. Actually listen to the patient before. You know it [00:34:05] actually isn’t that at all.

Payman Langroudi: Or an example.

Ammar Al Hourani: An example.

Payman Langroudi: What’s a patient going to say?

Ammar Al Hourani: That’s what [00:34:10] patients, for example, will come in. Dentists would say could you do this root canal treatment toothless tip. [00:34:15] But that in itself is not diagnostic. Ttp standards to percussion could be [00:34:20] anything. Inflammation of the PDL can happen because if anything patient comes in they’ve got high filling. They’re [00:34:25] grinding their teeth. They’ve got something stuck in their gum. Their gums are a [00:34:30] bit swollen. Before you know it you’re like, listen, I think you should reduce the filling and your tooth is a lot. You [00:34:35] know, you do a bit of sensibility testing radiograph looks fine. Bit of widening of the PDL. Done. [00:34:40] No, no endo required. They’re delighted. They’ve come in wanting thinking they’re going to pay £1,000. [00:34:45] Fernando. Now you’ve said just I’m going to reduce your cusp down a little. You know your filling down a little bit. Keep an eye on [00:34:50] it. Get a night. Night night. Splint. Check that out. You know. Masters are massive. Temporalis is big. [00:34:55] You know, you’ve got tongue scalloping. You’re a bruxism. Go and get that sorted out. Done. [00:35:00] Patients happy? You know, literally little small things. Like just listen to the patient and do a proper [00:35:05] exam.

Payman Langroudi: That’s it. Let’s say you decide now you’re going to go and you’re going to do an endo. When you when [00:35:10] you’re looking at that radiograph what’s the key thing. Is it is it as [00:35:15] simple as you know the, you know pathway of that file and acts how the access needs to be for [00:35:20] that curve. Is that all we’re saying.

Ammar Al Hourani: I think the first thing is look at the radiograph properly. Go on. Okay. So look [00:35:25] at the I always split the radiograph into three parts. Crown middle of the root somewhere. You know where [00:35:30] the the bone level is and then the root. Look at all three parts really really well. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: Once you’ve broken that down then you know what to do with the crown. You know what to do at the coronal third which is relatively [00:35:40] straightforward to get into. You know, and then you can look at the apical third and then you can decide how am I going to access [00:35:45] this properly. Okay. So that’s number one. Number two if you’re going to do the access don’t go for ninja [00:35:50] access as in all that sort of stuff. You know, like if you’re a novice and you don’t do lots of handle, just make your life easy. Make [00:35:55] it big enough to do the job properly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So just explain it. For people who don’t know, ninja access means you’re [00:36:00] super minimal.

Ammar Al Hourani: Super conservative.

Payman Langroudi: Cavity.

Ammar Al Hourani: So small that it’s like the size of the [00:36:05] bung of your, you know, k file, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And amongst amongst you guys. That’s kind [00:36:10] of a kudos point, right? Like amongst the super specialists.

Ammar Al Hourani: The irony is a lot of us probably don’t [00:36:15] do ninja accesses.

Payman Langroudi: No. Just for Instagram. Right. Yeah we do.

Ammar Al Hourani: That on Instagram on where you’ve sort of fluked it and you go, [00:36:20] right, I’m going to take a photo of this and show this up. But the reality that’s only a snapshot in time. That’s not how we do it every single [00:36:25] day. Because honestly, you do that. Ninja access. Good luck. Cleaning it out. [00:36:30]

Payman Langroudi: Is the whole point of it. Just to conserve tooth, is that it? Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: I mean, yeah, the more you keep, [00:36:35] the better it is for long term. But then you don’t want to be in a situation where you keep so much that you actually have lost the biological [00:36:40] concept of why you’re doing endodontics, which is to get the rubbish out basically, you know, so if you’ve got [00:36:45] the pulp chamber still kicking around and you can’t remove that pulp stone, you can’t find the canals and you’re going to snap [00:36:50] an instrument down there because the access is so small, you’ve sort of defeated the whole purpose. You’ve just made your life more difficult and [00:36:55] you’re not going to get the outcome you probably want. So what was the point? Make it a bit bigger.

Payman Langroudi: I’m probably asking silly questions because [00:37:00] it’s been so, so long for me. But is the access always the same for [00:37:05] each tooth, or is it?

Ammar Al Hourani: Pretty much. Yeah. Once you’ve done enough. Yeah, it’s almost the same.

Payman Langroudi: Pretty much. You don’t [00:37:10] sometimes change the access for a particular curvature of the canal sort of thing.

Ammar Al Hourani: No. You want straight line access. [00:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: So you do something to make it bigger. Bigger? Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: I’ll just try to sort of. Yeah. Open it up so that I get straight [00:37:20] line access. So I put less stress on the file, meaning I don’t have multiple curvatures or multiple planes to the file. [00:37:25] So I don’t want to go in at one angle. I’m in a canal. Another angle. And then it’s a third angle that you’re going into. [00:37:30] Or a fourth angle sometimes can be turning away in two different planes. They’ve put for, you know, a cape. I [00:37:35] think what a lot of people misunderstand sometimes is the system that we use is a little bit like a [00:37:40] paperclip. It has areas of tension, compression. You keep doing that long enough, you’re going to snap it somewhere. These [00:37:45] files are great, but they don’t want that much stresses on them. So the less stress you put on them. [00:37:50] And obviously keep some arrogant in the canal so you don’t overheat it either. Temper it down, give it a glide path, [00:37:55] absorb a lubricant, I suppose. Yeah. Then it’s going to make your life a lot easier. So [00:38:00] I’ll get straight line access. I don’t want to put too much stress on that file.

Payman Langroudi: Do we need to discuss that? Is there anything you do [00:38:05] differently regarding isolation than.

Ammar Al Hourani: Rubber dam.

Payman Langroudi: And liquid.

Ammar Al Hourani: Rubber dam and liquid dam? That’s it. That’s all you need.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:38:10]

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Keep it simple.

Payman Langroudi: So. And the instrumentation itself. Yeah. Does any [00:38:15] one hand file any more at all? Is there a is there a place for it or is it 100%.

Ammar Al Hourani: I mean, you still need the hand filing the size [00:38:20] eight and ten k file to get your patenting and your initial sort of glide path. I mean, that that still is [00:38:25] the hardest part of antibiotics, you know, trying to get down with the K file. Yeah. And trying to [00:38:30] get patency. That still is the hardest part. And that part you still have to understand how to do [00:38:35] well. Understanding the k file when it clicks, when it works, when it cuts, when it doesn’t work, that’s [00:38:40] actually the skill. Once you’ve got a size ten, they’re relatively loose. You’ve got so many great file systems [00:38:45] now in the market that will blast away all the way through it. That’s still the hardest part. So yeah, you still need to understand [00:38:50] hand instrumentation very, very well to that point. But do you need to do stepwise technique like [00:38:55] we used to do in the past? No I know you don’t need that. You’ve got such a great file systems now that are not [00:39:00] that expensive. Really that will do you a great job, a very predictable job. And ultimately it’s just [00:39:05] there to create space for the arrogant. Yeah. And it was all about bleach. Like literally if you boil it [00:39:10] down to one thing, it’s bleach. Get the arrogant into the apical arrogance.

Payman Langroudi: Not moved on from bleach.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, [00:39:15] bleach is still the king.

Payman Langroudi: Delete it.

Ammar Al Hourani: No. No.

Payman Langroudi: Is that. Is that an old thing? [00:39:20]

Ammar Al Hourani: You’re. You’re already at body temperature anyway. You’re already at body temperature. So what’s the point?

Payman Langroudi: You know, I thought maybe you heat [00:39:25] it so it kills more bacteria or something.

Ammar Al Hourani: It can do. It can do. It’s more effective. But the problem is then it becomes more runny. And if it goes through [00:39:30] the apex. Good luck. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Becomes more funny when you.

Ammar Al Hourani: Eat a bit more runny when you heat it. So you don’t want to be overheating [00:39:35] it too much. I don’t see the point because you’re also activating it when you activate it. You’re also warming it up a little bit. [00:39:40] So your tooth is already a basin at body temperature. So it’s going to naturally warm up irrespective. And [00:39:45] you’re using lots of volume. So because you’re using lots of volume it’s going to do the job. You know it’s all about volume [00:39:50] and time and again it’s the apical third. You get it there. You’re going to be really good. [00:39:55] It’s what you remove. It’s not what you put back in. So as long as you.

Payman Langroudi: So you’d say if you had to choose one or [00:40:00] the over the other. The irrigant. Bleach is more important than removal [00:40:05] of sort of infected dentine or something like this.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Still bleach I think is number one. I mean, they both actually. [00:40:10] You need both. Yeah. That’s why it’s called chemo mechanical. Because you need the mechanical to create space and maybe remove some of that [00:40:15] infected debris on the dentine. But the problem with that is you don’t remove enough. If we’ve got a lot of cbct studies, [00:40:20] which shows that files only touch maybe less than 50% of the surface. So that means because, you [00:40:25] know, the canal is an ovoid, you’re creating a cylinder within an ovoid. So that means two sides of the ovoid are never going to [00:40:30] be touched. And the only way you’re going to get in there is by activating with an arrogant. So you need the activation to move it. [00:40:35] It’s like having a bath. You need to jump in it to move the whole thing around. So it’s the same concept. The problem is with needle [00:40:40] irrigation, you can’t get the irrigate into the apical third. It’s just not possible. Like again it’s. You think [00:40:45] bleach is thin, you know, runny. But actually when you use it under the microscope, it’s actually quite thick. It’s not as thin [00:40:50] as you think it is. It is far thinner. So that’s when you start seeing the disparities. So you need [00:40:55] to push that arrogant down there. So you have to use either PowerPoint, just push it in, or you’re gonna have to use an activator [00:41:00] of some form. There’s a lot of cheap products out there that can do that for you. So we’re in a great era of [00:41:05] really affordable, great products, if I’m being honest with you. So.

Payman Langroudi: And are they. Okay. So now now [00:41:10] I’ve sort of opened it up. I’ve got bleach around. Are they good [00:41:15] and bad? Apex locators and um, is it a type [00:41:20] you should stick to or.

Ammar Al Hourani: I’ve got one type I love the pro Pax Pixi by Dentsply Sirona. I think it’s a [00:41:25] really great apex locator does a great job for me. Anyway, you’ve got the Morita, which is probably the most studies. [00:41:30] Apex locator. I think that’s really good, but it’s a little bit jumpy in my hands, so I don’t really use it [00:41:35] as much. And then you’ve got a lot of other apex locators. So what works in your hands? As long as you get consistency it’s what works in your [00:41:40] hands. Use whatever you like.

Payman Langroudi: But are you are you sort of system agnostic when it comes to [00:41:45] preparation and filter?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. If you come to the clinic, everything’s OCD, everything’s in [00:41:50] a stage. So if you people are more than welcome to come and shadow me, by the way. But yeah, if you come and watch me, [00:41:55] my setup is, you know, it’s exactly from start a from the burr all the way to Obturation. It’s all set [00:42:00] up in a chronological order. And it’s always been like that. It doesn’t change.

Payman Langroudi: But you don’t follow a particular [00:42:05] type of like, uh, school of.

Ammar Al Hourani: Uh, so I like I like going for much more minimal taper [00:42:10] now, uh, and I don’t like the big tapers anymore because I think you’re stripping away too much dentine. So I do [00:42:15] like the minimal taper, but I still like to make, you know, strip out enough, not strip out, but clean out enough. The dentine, [00:42:20] I suppose, or remove enough of the infected dentine. But yeah, I like to go minimal a minimal now [00:42:25] much more minimal. Keep as much tooth as possible. The more you keep the better the outcome, because whenever you remove you can’t replace. [00:42:30] No material out there is going to replace what you’ve just lost. So I like to stay as minimal as possible. So [00:42:35] that gives us the best long term outcome.

Payman Langroudi: And then the filling.

Ammar Al Hourani: Filling is in the obturation or the coronal [00:42:40] seal filling.

Payman Langroudi: No the obliteration.

Ammar Al Hourani: Obturation I use bioceramic sealers now. So I love bioceramic sealers. [00:42:45] You know, MTA derivative sealers, which is really great. Very good work. Really. Well, the science is backing up [00:42:50] nicely obviously. Be careful what bioceramics you’re using because there’s a lot of them out there in the market. So it has to be truly by ceramic. [00:42:55] So there’s some good products out there that you could use.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the sealant.

Ammar Al Hourani: Sealant and then a single cone technique. [00:43:00] So it’s called obturation. Now you’re not even having to heat it anymore. You just have a correlating GP point which fits [00:43:05] the file system that you’ve used. Put the sealer in and you just put the GP in position. Cut it. You’re [00:43:10] done. It doesn’t take that long now it takes seconds.

Payman Langroudi: But then where are the errors [00:43:15] in that bit? I mean people sort of pull it out by mistake while they.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah it can do. Yeah. You [00:43:20] can pull it out. Yeah. You can pull it out if you use the Bunsen burner and your nurses cigarette lighter. Yeah, of course you can. That [00:43:25] obviously that the good.

Payman Langroudi: Old.

Ammar Al Hourani: Days, the good old days. And believe it or not, that’s still a lot of practice mantra in the UK. [00:43:30] A lot of people still do that. So you could I think now you can buy really cheap cutting systems that are as [00:43:35] low as £60 on the market, so you don’t really need to do that. I think people just need to invest. If you invest a little bit [00:43:40] of money, you can make your life tremendously easier. It won’t come out.

Payman Langroudi: And then the next bit, the sort of [00:43:45] the coronal seal, coronal composite.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. So either you reroll the tooth beforehand, [00:43:50] you put it back into a class one and do your root canal treatment, or you do your root canal treatment and then rebuild everything up [00:43:55] for your refining dentist. I think the refining dentist likes you to do, especially with with those endodontists [00:44:00] now, I think we’re more restoratively driven endodontists. So we’re not just endodontists, you know, Cottonwool pellet, [00:44:05] you know, GIC and back to, you know, we do quite a lot of that stuff now for you. And if you ask [00:44:10] us to, we would do it. And I think we like doing it for two reasons. One, it keeps our skill up in that respect. [00:44:15] So we have our finger still on a bit of restorative dentistry. And two, we’re much more confident with the coronal seal. So when [00:44:20] it comes to you and we ask you for an only or a crown, we’re comfortable with what we’ve put in there. So it makes us a bit happier [00:44:25] that we’ve removed the decay ourself.

Payman Langroudi: Because you kind of you own the coronal seal.

Ammar Al Hourani: You own the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:44:30] But we expect you to do a really good crown because if you do a terrible crown that’s going to leak back in. So again, [00:44:35] you know, the crown or the only is still very, very important.

Payman Langroudi: How soon after. [00:44:40] Straight away. As quick as you can.

Ammar Al Hourani: Um I would say usually give it 4 to 6 weeks [00:44:45] just to let things settle down. Patients probably paid a lot of money now for the endo. Maybe they’ve come and seen you twice. Um, [00:44:50] you know, it’s a lot of cost.

Payman Langroudi: Did you always advocate some [00:44:55] form of crown.

Ammar Al Hourani: If you’ve lost? Yeah. If you’ve lost a marginal ridge, you’re going to have to use cuspal coverage, especially on a posterior tooth, because [00:45:00] it’s more likely to break. So yeah, you’re always going to advocate. And usually I would usually ask, you know, [00:45:05] advise on what material I would like you to use as well. So it depends on your occlusion. So we check [00:45:10] the occlusion I check the guidance, I check all that sort of stuff. So when I send you a letter back I’ll say could you please do it in X, [00:45:15] Y and Z? And there’s a particular reason as to why I’ve sort of said that. If not, I’ll say choose whatever you want. [00:45:20]

Payman Langroudi: How do you know? Yeah. From my days when I was a dentist, man, when you get in [00:45:25] to the to the pulp cavity. Right. And there’s like, cracks. How [00:45:30] do you know what crack is?

Ammar Al Hourani: A good crack?

Payman Langroudi: A good crack.

Ammar Al Hourani: Is a bad one.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:45:35] ones. Which one is it? When, how? How can you tell whether a crack is a problematic crack [00:45:40] or not? Or can’t you?

Ammar Al Hourani: Well, there’s a number of things. First, discuss the symptoms of the patient. So one, [00:45:45] you know, are they getting symptoms when release on bite. So that usually will tell you that the crack maybe is a little bit deeper down [00:45:50] than you think it is. Two. Look at the bone levels. Have you got any horizontal bone loss? A vertical bone loss [00:45:55] around the margins, which are very important. That’s probably where it’s stopping. Third thing is [00:46:00] we I die. If I die the crack and I see where it is. If it’s still in the coronal pulp chamber on [00:46:05] the sides, I’m good with it. If it’s in the canal, maybe in the first millimetre or two, it’s a bit more problematic. [00:46:10] But we’d still give it the benefit of the doubt and still do the root canal treatment for you. If it’s on the floor of the [00:46:15] pulp, then I think, let’s call it a day.

Payman Langroudi: Even if it’s a tiny little hair.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, yeah, that’s that tooth is splitting apart. [00:46:20]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ammar Al Hourani: And you want predictability. You’re not going to charge the patient. The best part of what, a [00:46:25] thousand £1,200 and then a crown to go. I’m really sorry. That only lasted an hour. You know, a couple of days [00:46:30] or a couple of years. You know, I don’t think most patients would be happy with that. And also, you’re also worried about the bone loss [00:46:35] because if you start losing a lot of bone, you’re going to really compromise the implant placement as well. So again, I’ve sort of [00:46:40] now made you lose a tooth and not great about bone. So the crack as long as [00:46:45] in a nutshell, as long as it’s in the crown, you’re okay? Um, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think it’s [00:46:50] kind of back to the. If the tooth is broken down way, sort of gingerly.

Ammar Al Hourani: Broken [00:46:55] down is in the filling, you.

Payman Langroudi: Mean. Yeah. Before you start.

Ammar Al Hourani: It depends if you if you could do crown [00:47:00] lengthening. Yeah, I’d try to. I’d always advocate trying to save that tooth.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I’m sort of. [00:47:05] At what point does hero become a problematic. You know that’s [00:47:10] that’s the question.

Ammar Al Hourani: There’s two things here. I think the first thing is I know this sounds like, you know, bringing it [00:47:15] into camps, but the first thing is I would say is look at the age group of the patient. If they’re about 19, 20, 21, you [00:47:20] take that tooth out. What are you going to put in there? Are you going to put an implant every ten, 12, 13 years, 15 years? You’re going to have to change [00:47:25] it. So they’re going to change it about 6 or 7 times in their lifetime. That’s a lot of work. Yeah. You don’t know what disease they might have in [00:47:30] the future. Will the implant even be an option for them down the line? You know, it’s all that sort of stuff. So you’re now opening up a lot [00:47:35] of that unknown. If I could buy you a few more years and I’ll buy it might be not the best scenario [00:47:40] that we’re in, but you’d be surprised at how many times you do these and they [00:47:45] last like ten years, you know. So yeah, again. So I try to push based on age group, I’d like to [00:47:50] push that younger patient kick that can a little bit longer.

Ammar Al Hourani: If it fails, we can always do surgery [00:47:55] on that route by a few more years. Again kicking it again. You know, it’ll reheal hopefully with a bit of fresh bone, [00:48:00] then have the tooth out. That could be 15 years down the line. Great. Well, you know, you’ve left that ace [00:48:05] card down the line. You put the implant, now you’re going to be losing more bone. You’re going to have to have more implants. You’re going to have more [00:48:10] disease around the implant, more complications. You might develop patio systemic disease where it might become more difficult [00:48:15] now opened up a lot of unknowns. I’d rather just be predictable. Nothing will replace your tooth. But [00:48:20] obviously sometimes you look at it and you’re like, that’s enough. There’s only so much I can take. Once we’re below bone level or [00:48:25] at bone level, I think you’ve pushed it. I think that’s enough. So I do try my best. [00:48:30] Yeah, but it’s all about consenting. It’s all about consent. Yeah, it’s all about consent [00:48:35] and pulp.

Payman Langroudi: Like pulpal anatomy, Canal anatomy is like. I think [00:48:40] I used to have an endodontist boss as well. Yeah. And he told me, look, there’s [00:48:45] a hundred little side canals and things you can’t see. So what [00:48:50] happens there? Is the sealant going in those, or is the bleach going in those, or is what’s what’s [00:48:55] going on.

Ammar Al Hourani: So yeah, you’re you’re activating the arrogant. Hopefully some of that bleach is going to go into the, into those [00:49:00] little lateral canals. But you can never clean it all out. That’s a problem. We can’t sterilise the tooth. We’re disinfecting it as much [00:49:05] as we possibly can. Yeah. And we’re reducing the bacterial load as much as we possibly can. And then entombing [00:49:10] what we’ve got left in the hope that you don’t give it any substrate to regrow. But obviously we are getting [00:49:15] a lot more emerging science on bacteria and microbiology within endodontics. We also have sampling errors [00:49:20] still within endodontics. So we don’t really know 100% about what’s what’s happening within it. [00:49:25] So there’s that science is constantly emerging. But as long as you’re cleaning sufficiently [00:49:30] that you allow the body to start to heal and the patient symptoms don’t get any worse, and that lesion isn’t getting any bigger. [00:49:35] Slowly, hopefully shrinking, then we’re okay. It’s buying you time. It’s the [00:49:40] science of buying time. Endodontics. That’s all it is.

Payman Langroudi: But if I’m if I’m a general dentist and I can’t find [00:49:45] the what was it called? Mtv2. Am I doing my patient [00:49:50] a disservice?

Ammar Al Hourani: The first thing, not every specialist finds M2. Just to put it out there, I [00:49:55] don’t find M2 every single time.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Like I’m human sometimes. Take a cbct. And I still don’t find [00:50:00] M2. Like, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Just sometimes it’s not there, right?

Ammar Al Hourani: Maybe it’s just not there. So then you go. You know what? We’ll keep an eye on it. But the thing, [00:50:05] the beauty of it is, then I can review it over time. And if it doesn’t work out, I can always do surgery. I can go back in and B [00:50:10] and b1 and B2 chop off the the root and buy myself more time. So I’ve still got that skill set to fix that problem [00:50:15] if I can find it. I think if you’ve got a periapical lesion on on that root [00:50:20] and you don’t find nb2, I think yeah, it might not work. I think maybe start thinking about telling [00:50:25] the patient about referral to a specialist or dentist special interest to maybe find that under magnification, if [00:50:30] the patient then says no, which a lot of them would do, then it’s all down to consenting. You’re going to have [00:50:35] to say, listen, I’ve done my best. I’ve got to the full length of the main canal, cleaned it really well. I’m hoping [00:50:40] that it merges with the main canal. Nb2 merges with Nb1 about 80% of the time anyway, [00:50:45] and hopefully you’ll get away with it for a short period of time, maybe a few years, and it [00:50:50] might fail again, and maybe revert then onto a specialist and they might deal with it. So it’s a matter of having that conversation [00:50:55] with the patient. Because honestly, you need to be pragmatic. Not every patient is going to afford £1,000. [00:51:00] And, you know, in terms of economy, you know, hardships and recessions and whatnot, people [00:51:05] are not going to be able to afford it. It’s a lot of money. It is a lot of money, you know. So I respect patients. If they can’t afford [00:51:10] it, try your best to clean it as best as you can, obturate it to the best of your ability and keep an eye on it in the [00:51:15] long run. Um, and then if it doesn’t work out, refer it across or refer it before [00:51:20] you obturate it. If you’re 100%, if you’re not 100% certain.

Payman Langroudi: And what what [00:51:25] is the predictor of a flare up after you finish?

Ammar Al Hourani: Well, [00:51:30] there’s a number of things. So we’re not putting rubber dam on. For example. You’re going to get a lot of saliva in there. So you’ve changed [00:51:35] the ecosystem in the canal to uh, maybe you’ve put some [00:51:40] sealer, not sealer, some arrogant through the apex a little bit off. It sometimes can cause a bit of a flare up. It might not [00:51:45] be a full blown hypochlorite accident, it might just be a little irritation. Yeah. Over prepping the canal. So you’ve gone through [00:51:50] through the other end. So you’re basically going into the PDL? Yeah. And then you need to remember your [00:51:55] flutes have also got infected dentine debris. So what you’ve done is you’ve essentially created a [00:52:00] cut and then you’ve rubbed soil into it. Yeah. So that’s what’s happened. So you’ve drilled a you know, you’ve you’ve [00:52:05] gone past the apex, you’ve drilled a little hole in the PDL in the bone, and then you’ve rubbed infected [00:52:10] debris into it. So you’re going to get a bit of a flare up after it. And the.

Payman Langroudi: Pa area, [00:52:15] a pre-existing.

Ammar Al Hourani: Period.

Payman Langroudi: That’s going to be more likely to flare up.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, yeah. [00:52:20] Especially if it’s the larger the area. Also the more likely it might just blow up just [00:52:25] because the body also needs to start to heal. So you’re going to undergo inflammation to heal. And that inflammation might [00:52:30] not be very kind to you. So it’s you get facial swelling. I’ve had maybe 2 or 3 of these now in my in my career so [00:52:35] far where it’s just, you know, I thought it was a relatively okay treatment And it’s just blown up. Whereas if you’ve got a sinus, [00:52:40] ironically, it’s unlikely to get a flare up because you’ve already got an exit valve already. Yeah, yeah. So that’s [00:52:45] probably not going to happen. So you’re sort of going to get away with it really a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah I mean is [00:52:50] it is there a situation where you can. Is there something you can do to minimise [00:52:55] post-op discomfort.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. So I usually give my patients ibuprofen before [00:53:00] they start before.

Payman Langroudi: The start of the treatment, before.

Ammar Al Hourani: We start the treatment ibuprofen beforehand because [00:53:05] you know it just reduces you know they’ve got anti-inflammatories in their system already. Make sure [00:53:10] that your working length is spot on. Make sure your prep plant is going to be spot on. Um, irrigate really, [00:53:15] really well. Obviously rubber dam is crucial. Have a great coronal seal between appointments. [00:53:20] Make sure if you’re going to do two visit endo. Make sure you.

Payman Langroudi: Ever do that.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah but I would say 10% of those are two visits [00:53:25] 10%. 10%. Yeah. Comfortably.

Payman Langroudi: You know why why would you choose to do it. Because in the first [00:53:30] visit you just couldn’t.

Ammar Al Hourani: So either I’ve, I’ve run out of time or [00:53:35] the patients had a lot of pain. So we want things to settle down a little bit. A sinus, I like the sinus to go away [00:53:40] before I do. Finish off the endo. Um, big pay off collision. Because I told you I’ve been stung a couple [00:53:45] of times, so now I like to let it settle down. If it’s going to flare up, it’s going to flare up now. So at least I can go [00:53:50] back in and still do something about it. If I go in and there’s a malodour, you know, retreatment there’s a malodour, it stinks. [00:53:55] Maybe there’s pus discharging, exudate discharging, blood discharging. I’ll put something. I just want that settle down. [00:54:00] Um, so or, you know, sometimes it could be just a difficult patient. And I’m like, I don’t want this [00:54:05] patient to complain down the line. I’ll put, you know, I’ll do everything as I can so that you don’t come back and haunt me down the line. [00:54:10]

Payman Langroudi: And what do you put while you’re in between the two points?

Ammar Al Hourani: Hydroxide. Calcium hydroxide. Yeah. [00:54:15] Ptfe tape. And then I’ll put cava and GIC two layers and that again, another reason for a [00:54:20] flare up is if your coronal seal in between appointments has been lost, you might get a flare up.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s not good enough. [00:54:25]

Ammar Al Hourani: No, no I’ll go down. Yeah. Cava and GIC I always put cava and then GIC on top, which [00:54:30] is good.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. It’s an unnecessary risk, isn’t it? For for for one minute extra [00:54:35] to Put something stronger in there.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes I just feel like if I’m not sure [00:54:40] or my gut instinct is what’s going on here, it’s a bit different. I’ll put calcium hydroxide. Let things settle down. [00:54:45] Bring the patient back in. Do a good endo. And I’m sort of, to an extent, maybe protected [00:54:50] medical eagerly because I’ve done everything by the book. There’s nothing more I could have done differently. Does that make sense? So if you compare me to someone [00:54:55] else, what else could they have done any differently than I could have? Nothing. You know what I mean? So I’ve done [00:55:00] everything I can at that point.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think of. I had someone here who was talking about pulpotomy. [00:55:05]

Ammar Al Hourani: Vital pulp therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What do you think of that?

Ammar Al Hourani: I think it’s a [00:55:10] very, very interesting emerging science.

Payman Langroudi: So do you ever do that?

Ammar Al Hourani: Uh, I’ve done a handful. [00:55:15] I’ve not done that many. Uh, just because I’m still not confident enough with it. That’s me. On a personal [00:55:20] level, I’m not talking about the science. I think the science is there, but I’m just not confident with it. And maybe I’ve not had the [00:55:25] cases, really, where I’ve had that sort of patient between the reversible, irreversible Pi test, [00:55:30] that sort of early irreversible pulpitis. I don’t really get a lot of these patients. That’s a problem. I get a lot of patients who’ve [00:55:35] already had endo. They’ve had a flare up. They’ve had a sinus. They’ve had a chronic period collision. So the dentist has already gone and [00:55:40] then done something. So I don’t really get that clientele. I don’t get irreversible pulpitis basically, you [00:55:45] know. So I’ve not had enough of these cases to do.

Payman Langroudi: If I fracture the [00:55:50] instrument in the canal, what must I and my must not do.

Ammar Al Hourani: I [00:55:55] think be honest with the patient number one.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: You have to tell them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Because ultimately it’s their [00:56:00] tooth.

Payman Langroudi: In my day, they say. Yeah, tell the patient it’s kind of like the root canal filling. Fill it. And it’s all [00:56:05] good.

Ammar Al Hourani: So I think I think we need to take a few steps back. I think if you’ve done it at the end of the treatment and you’ve been irrigating [00:56:10] with hypochlorite and you’ve been agitating the Aragon, and it’s been done perfectly, but then for [00:56:15] whatever reason, you’ve gone back in, you know, that one last attempt just to, you know, make sure it’s definitely clean and [00:56:20] it snaps, then you’ve essentially cleaned it in a clean canal. So you’ve obturate with nightly. You [00:56:25] probably will get away with it. That should be, I think. Okay, I’m not saying it’s 100% okay, but [00:56:30] I think you will be alright because you’ve been working through hypochlorite. You’ve cleaned the air, you know. So it’s sort of happened in a more sterile [00:56:35] environment. Okay. If you’ve done it at the beginning of treatment, that’s. Yeah, you’re going to have to fish [00:56:40] that out basically. So tell the patient. Just be honest with them. That’s the consenting process. Tell them that’s going to be a [00:56:45] risk. Tell them about it. Refer the patient on. Now will I be able to always remove it.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:56:50] definitely. They shouldn’t try to take it out themselves.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, that’s I mean, even for us that’s difficult, I would [00:56:55] say I would say hand on heart. For me the hardest two things is ledge management. Removal of files like that for me is [00:57:00] ledge management.

Payman Langroudi: When someone else has alleged it and now you have to try and fix it.

Ammar Al Hourani: They’re so difficult. Honestly, that’s the devil’s [00:57:05] work. That is that is really, really for me. That’s that’s my Achilles heel. That and Fractured Instruments [00:57:10] 100%. I think most specialists would tell you that as well, to be honest, I think. But if you would not disagree with that. [00:57:15]

Payman Langroudi: What about Retreatment? Should [00:57:20] a general dentist without a special interest try retreatment?

Ammar Al Hourani: No, I [00:57:25] think that’s really difficult. Really, really hard because the treatment you need to understand why has that failed in the first place? The [00:57:30] two questions you have to always ask yourself, as any dentist is why is that happened? Can I [00:57:35] fix it? If you can’t diagnose why it’s happened and then you go and fix it, it’s going to fail again because you’ve never really dealt [00:57:40] with the cause.

Payman Langroudi: What if what if you can see the previous end is not the best? So that’s why it’s [00:57:45] happened.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: Then can I fix it?

Ammar Al Hourani: I’ll give it a go.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:57:50] well, well, no, this this thing that I was never good at anyway. But let’s say you’re good at Endo. Yeah. Is there something you need [00:57:55] to know about removing the old one? And should you, I don’t know, use [00:58:00] different irrigant. Should you, should you should you now do things differently [00:58:05] the second time?

Ammar Al Hourani: So I think the first thing is why has it been short. So the reason [00:58:10] is maybe the dentist didn’t get to the full length because they didn’t handle it or they didn’t prep it, and then the ledge [00:58:15] didn’t filled it. Yeah. So if that’s happened, good luck getting through that. That’s not really. [00:58:20]

Payman Langroudi: That’s not for a generalist. Right.

Ammar Al Hourani: I think that’s really difficult work for even for us it’s pretty tricky to Retreatment is still pretty [00:58:25] tricky for most specialists. So I would say definitely pass that on.

Payman Langroudi: And if [00:58:30] a patient asks you what’s your success rate? Do you sort of quote the [00:58:35] papers or.

Ammar Al Hourani: I mean, that’s the only papers that you can quote. But I also quote myself, to be fair, [00:58:40] like so I think when you quote papers, you’re always quoting other people’s work. Yeah. So if you’ve done 300 [00:58:45] randos and all of them are worked over a five year period, just tell me that I’ve done 500 and they’ve all worked over five [00:58:50] years. You’ve got 100% success rate. Great. Okay. Or survival, whatever way you want to look at it. Um, [00:58:55] I would usually still quote the papers, but then I would say in my hands, I’ve [00:59:00] been working here for the last six years, and I’ve had I get a handful of patients back every, every year. And it’s within [00:59:05] those that were already ropey to start off with, but they’ve maybe lasted four years.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s [00:59:10] a success rate of no worse than the first time.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, retreatment is always worse than [00:59:15] second retreatment with the lesions. Worse again. Third retreatment not great. [00:59:20] Probably less than 50%. So because you’re, you know, you’re making things bigger again, you’re going in again, you’re blasting [00:59:25] everything open again. You’re weakening everything up. So it’s probably the best. So yeah, Retreatment [00:59:30] is less and then retreatment because the bacteria is different. The microbiology is different. You’re not dealing with Nicholas [00:59:35] and Candida and Fusobacterium Nucleatum and all sorts of other bacteria that live [00:59:40] in extreme spartan conditions. They’re really difficult to get rid of. So you’re now dealing with a completely different ecosystem. And [00:59:45] so even with bleach, they can evade bleach, you know. So how. Well. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Can [00:59:50] you humour me with internal whitening a little bit?

Ammar Al Hourani: I love internal. I do a lot of it. Okay. I think [00:59:55] it’s great. So it works.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your problem? Are you leaving that protocol?

Ammar Al Hourani: First [01:00:00] you need to. So you need to understand what caused the internal discolouration in the first place. Is it trauma associated or [01:00:05] not? If it’s trauma and the tooth is really dark, it’s going to be a little bit more tricky. If it’s someone’s done an endo and then [01:00:10] the GP’s become discoloured, you know, and you remove that GP, the tooth almost instantly lightens up. So it depends. [01:00:15] And once you start using bleach it lightens up with the bleach as well. So a lot of times actually.

Payman Langroudi: The hypochlorite the. [01:00:20]

Ammar Al Hourani: Hypochlorite.

Payman Langroudi: Peroxide.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. So by the time I’ve removed the GP point it starts to whiten up because the GP point was above [01:00:25] the siege. And so you can see it if it’s a trauma case, I. Yeah. [01:00:30] Um, really, really. Well use a little bit of ultrasonic just to clean up the dentine a tiny [01:00:35] bit.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good idea.

Ammar Al Hourani: Acidic acid, that chip. You know the Kaiser? Kaiser. Kaiser [01:00:40] protocol. Yeah. Uh, bleach for five minutes. So not bleach. Acid etch, five minutes. [01:00:45] And then I’ll just put the internal whitening and just leave it.

Payman Langroudi: Would you use.

Ammar Al Hourani: I [01:00:50] use Opalescence endo, which is 35% peroxide. And it works [01:00:55] really well. It’s licensed in the UK at the moment. So I use that. And that’s been.

Payman Langroudi: And what did you the walking bleach then.

Ammar Al Hourani: You [01:01:00] walking bleach.

Payman Langroudi: I suppose.

Ammar Al Hourani: I start with walking bleach first to see how that goes. And if it doesn’t work then believe it or not [01:01:05] I then start using your stuff. So I start using the internal whitening internal external with the enlighten [01:01:10] system that works really, really well. It’s worked beautifully.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, do you, do you? Look, people are telling [01:01:15] me, some people are telling me there’s no need. Once once you’ve let’s say you’ve you’ve removed [01:01:20] the GP, you’ve gone to say a millimetre below the HCG. Some people [01:01:25] telling me there’s no need to actually seal that root canal system.

Ammar Al Hourani: With like, something else. I [01:01:30] think there’s always that risk of maybe external cervical resorption. That’s why we do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, but but telling me [01:01:35] that that used to happen before because of heating the peroxide with a hot [01:01:40] instrument. Possibly. Yeah. And doesn’t happen anymore.

Ammar Al Hourani: To be honest with you, I don’t really know much about that heating [01:01:45] process. To be fair, I still do it the old school way. I cut it under the seat by maybe a couple of millimetres.

Payman Langroudi: Leave it open. [01:01:50]

Ammar Al Hourani: Put a lining of glass Ionomer thin lining glass ionomer. Keep it open. Get the patient you know, obviously. Tell them how to [01:01:55] clean it and then squirt the the gel in and have the whitening tray.

Payman Langroudi: And overnight for how [01:02:00] long do you leave that?

Ammar Al Hourani: I ask them, I usually ask them to change it every 2 or 3 hours by the way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: For a good week. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: And then you leave it open for a week. Yeah. Oh, really?

Ammar Al Hourani: So a little bit in keep it overnight. Keep [01:02:10] changing it. And then maybe after three four days stop doing it. Put a temporary filling in yourself. So I [01:02:15] usually give them some temporary filling or tell them where to buy it from from Amazon. And then I’ll say wait for a week and then [01:02:20] come back and see me, because then it’ll rehydrate. There’s no point. Come and see me straight away. Two reasons one, I can’t bond onto it properly. [01:02:25] I need to give it a bit of time. And then secondly, you know, I want to see whether when it rehydrates, [01:02:30] does it actually look good? Because it might look frosty. And then I’m like, well, that looks great. And then it discolours over that period of the week. [01:02:35] Does that make sense? So I’ll usually let it settle for a little while. Come and see me. You know, a week, two weeks, usually [01:02:40] two weeks because patients can’t come and see me whenever they want to see me. And plus, sometimes they don’t have the space to see them. That’s the problem. I’m not [01:02:45] in that clinic. I might be in that clinic in two weeks time. By the time they come back. Let’s take another photo. Do you like it? [01:02:50] No. I want a bit more. Go back and do a bit more. We’ll remove that filling. Clean it all up. Start again till they [01:02:55] get in a comfortable position. And to be fair, it’s quite predictable. And with the enlightened system. I’m not trying to sell your product, but with enlightened system it’s [01:03:00] worked really well. I’ve not had any issues. Patients are happy.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. Think about teaching. [01:03:05] Do you think there’s a need? I think there definitely is a need. Right. Insomuch [01:03:10] as people are coming out of dental school, having done like one, I heard less [01:03:15] than one molar. Yeah, well, one, one canal of a molar. Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, [01:03:20] I.

Payman Langroudi: That was an Audi. That wasn’t the case. We did. We did a few [01:03:25] more than that.

Ammar Al Hourani: So the thing is, the thing is that it’s been a change in culture. So we used to have it wasn’t competency based. [01:03:30] We were numbers based. So you had to do like I don’t know I can’t remember what was Glasgow 30 maybe. Yeah. You had to [01:03:35] do in 20 cobalt chromes and 300 fillings and whatnot. And you had the patience. Yeah. There was always patience in [01:03:40] Glasgow. You can’t not have the patience for, you know, now the same students [01:03:45] are struggling to find an A&E in Glasgow.

Payman Langroudi: Why is that?

Ammar Al Hourani: I don’t know. I have no idea. I don’t know what’s happened.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:03:50] weird, isn’t it?

Ammar Al Hourani: They’re struggling to get like Nando’s and they’re starting to. So now it’s become competency based. So you could do one good [01:03:55] access and one good obturation. And you’re you’re safe. And I said [01:04:00] to you earlier on, I had to do 3000 before I felt comfortable.

Payman Langroudi: As a specialist.

Ammar Al Hourani: A specialist, you know. So [01:04:05] how is that possible?

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’m not really 100% what’s going on in the NHS here, but there’s plenty of [01:04:10] endo NHS endo going on which doesn’t pay.

Ammar Al Hourani: No.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:04:15] it’s what my understanding is they shove it off to the to do Mm ft [01:04:20] to do PhD. Like someone who’s got no no experience whatsoever is now doing [01:04:25] the endo.

Ammar Al Hourani: I mean I think the listen as an NHS concept, I [01:04:30] like the concept. I think it’s a great concept as a healthcare healthcare. I think it’s a great concept. Okay. Has [01:04:35] it been done. Well I think it could be done a lot better personally. The thing is, you can’t do something when [01:04:40] the cost of the material costs more than the treatment itself, because then you don’t factor in the dentist. There’s expertise [01:04:45] there years. The cost of running a clinic is really expensive and you’re in the UK. There’s not a cheap [01:04:50] country. I don’t care where you live in the UK. The UK is still an expensive country, so [01:04:55] it’s been done almost as a charity. Yeah, so a lot of people just don’t want to do it. So they become de-skilled in it, or they go [01:05:00] privately and say, oh, I do all this stuff. I don’t do endo. Yeah, you know, that’s a majority. I don’t do dentures. Yeah, [01:05:05] yeah. Just fair enough. I think from that point of view that latter at least you respect the fact that you don’t [01:05:10] do endo and you don’t want to do endo. You want someone else who knows how to do endo to do. And I think that’s good. That’s honourable. I like [01:05:15] that the NHS system however, is everyone should be doing it. You have to offer it to the patient, but [01:05:20] I’m not very good at it. So how can I offer you heart surgery? And I don’t do heart surgery. You [01:05:25] know, you don’t go to your GP and ask them, can you do, you know, can can you start my kidney? They [01:05:30] don’t know how to do that. They refer that on. So we don’t have a great tertiary system in this country for dentistry. We [01:05:35] don’t have a referral system. You know, dental schools are clogged up. Maybe the funding isn’t there. Maybe they don’t have the staff [01:05:40] to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: And so you’re sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. And you’ve got litigation also. [01:05:45] I mean, that’s I would always say that the biggest advancement in dentistry in the UK are what’s driving advancements. Litigation isn’t [01:05:50] even the science. It’s I don’t want to get sued. Let’s be honest. You know, that’s the elephant in the room, [01:05:55] right? What’s changed in dentistry over the last 20 years? Being sued?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: Let’s be honest. Right. No [01:06:00] one’s going to deny that. So I think I feel sorry for a lot of these dentists. You [01:06:05] know, if you told me to do an NHS endo without the equipment I have at the moment, the expertise I [01:06:10] have, I’d do a terrible job being honest.

Payman Langroudi: The majority of endo is being [01:06:15] carried out in the country or those. Right? Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: And are they working? Probably some of them are [01:06:20] working. Some of them aren’t working. And I think if you’ve got a nice patient you’ll probably be okay. [01:06:25] And if you don’t, you might become a problem for you down the line.

Payman Langroudi: Terrible thing. You have [01:06:30] a friend or family member says, I’ve got toothache here and it calls me up. Let’s say he’s not near [01:06:35] me or anyone I know. My first piece of advice is don’t have it done in the NHS like my [01:06:40] first first thing I say go.

Ammar Al Hourani: And see a specialist.

Payman Langroudi: First thing I say. Yeah. And [01:06:45] that’s a sad state of affairs, isn’t it? It is. Especially [01:06:50] in endo, you know, because it’s time consuming, expensive procedure. That dentist [01:06:55] is not going to be paid for.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, it’s a minefield. This is a political minefield. Nhs dentistry [01:07:00] is a political minefield. You know, it’s either you change it dramatically.

Payman Langroudi: Where [01:07:05] maybe if you were the king of the world, what would you. How would you change it then? If you liked the idea, [01:07:10] you like the idea, right? You like the idea of healthcare?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, I think I think have a universal. I quite like the Northern [01:07:15] Ireland system to an extent. They have a small number of codes which the dentists do, and then [01:07:20] a lot of it is private. So like the government tops some, you know, does some of the stuff pays for some of the stuff, and then you [01:07:25] have to pay some for some of the stuff, or you go down an insurance policy where the government pays a little, you pay [01:07:30] a little and the insurance pays a little, and that also might work. And that’s what I would do if I was to change it tomorrow, [01:07:35] I would have everyone on some sort of insurance policy. It would come with your work or something like [01:07:40] that. You know, a bit like America. You know, you have your health and dental care comes in with your employment job and then everyone [01:07:45] gets you pay a little premium. Or if you’re at a certain threshold, the government pays the rest of [01:07:50] it. And then you have a lot of centres where you have dentist special interests that do it to a relatively good standard. And anything [01:07:55] above that has to go to a specialist and they get paid for it.

Payman Langroudi: If it was me, what I would do is I would [01:08:00] means test first of all, here. The only only people earning below [01:08:05] X can get any access to NHS, NHS dentistry. [01:08:10] We’re talking leave medicine to one side for now. Then I would take the [01:08:15] budget, which is at the moment it’s 2.5% of the health care budget, and divide it [01:08:20] by the number of people below earning less than £35,000 or whatever the number is. And [01:08:25] I distribute that money here as a voucher to be spent at any dentist. [01:08:30] Yeah, that would work. And those people can go to the dentist by teeth whitening, go to [01:08:35] the dentist by whatever the hell they want for the dentist. Yeah. And that’s the amount of money they’ve got [01:08:40] to spend at the dentist.

Ammar Al Hourani: I think that’s quite nice, I think. Or you would have it at the basic functional [01:08:45] stuff you would pay for. And I think above that you might have to. Yeah. But apart from.

Payman Langroudi: Your basic functional stuff [01:08:50] is an endo is the basic functional stuff, isn’t it.

Ammar Al Hourani: But then that money could then be used towards a specialist [01:08:55] in your endo or a dentist. Interesting. Your endo? Yeah, yeah. And not the GDP per se, unless you’re very, very good at it. [01:09:00] So you can then use that coupon anywhere essentially. Yeah that would work. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s mad. I think [01:09:05] the one thing we can be sure of here is no more than 2.5% of the budget is coming to us. You know that, if [01:09:10] anything less than that. Yeah, I think I.

Ammar Al Hourani: Think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I think it should be more creative. It’s not going to be more [01:09:15] though. You know, that’s you know, that’s just not reality. Yeah. So I’d say [01:09:20] as a profession, we need to think of it as less is going to come or the same amount is going to come. [01:09:25]

Ammar Al Hourani: I think just going to an insurance.

Payman Langroudi: What are we going to do with that money? Yeah you’re right. Insurance. But the country’s not set up. [01:09:30]

Ammar Al Hourani: No we’re not. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t we don’t enlighten. We don’t offer our team dental insurance.

Ammar Al Hourani: No [01:09:35] one does. I don’t know. One of.

Payman Langroudi: Their benefits. But. But if there wasn’t or there isn’t a [01:09:40] really good one. But if there wasn’t NHS dentistry, that would be part of the culture. People would be asking for [01:09:45] dental insurance when they come and get jobs, you know.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Or you could have it, I think, in some countries where [01:09:50] you cap the fees.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: So every treatment has got a fee. Yeah. And it’s capped by the. So [01:09:55] although it’s a free market economy but it’s still capped. The government is like you know, you can’t be more than £100 for a white filling, [01:10:00] let’s say. And then it becomes affordable to the masses. You know that could also work.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:10:05] would you say is the difference between a good endodontist and a great endodontist?

Ammar Al Hourani: Experience. [01:10:10] Honestly, it’s all about experience. [01:10:15] Yeah, but I think experience and then also giving something back to [01:10:20] society, I think. And what I mean by that is by teaching a lot more of the future. [01:10:25] A lot of specialists don’t know. That’s not true. I think some specialists do [01:10:30] do a lot of stuff with the, you know, with undergrads, Post-grads and some of them don’t. I think giving back also [01:10:35] makes you a great specialist. I think it’s fair enough.

Payman Langroudi: But outside of giving back, I mean, I technically I’m [01:10:40] no, no, not only technically I’m referring here. Let’s say I’m a referring dentist and [01:10:45] you’ve got Nancy and me here. What’s the difference between a good one [01:10:50] and a great one like now? Let me give you an example. When I used to refer to my perio guy. Yeah, [01:10:55] he was, he was very good at the gums. Yeah. But patient used to come back saying [01:11:00] periodontist said I need crowns on this, that and the other and this tooth can take it. That tooth can’t. [01:11:05] And full restorative treatment plan would come back. Sold. Yeah. Sold [01:11:10] by the specialist. So it would be like. I’d be like. I’m sending more patients to him. Yeah. Because, because [01:11:15] because, you know, he’s he’s a sort of a higher authority. He’s saying this tooth can take [01:11:20] a crown. This tooth can’t. And he says tells the patient, I would crown that one and send them back. Okay. [01:11:25] That’s that’s not technical, is it? That’s that’s like almost a service he’s giving back to [01:11:30] me as the referrer. You tell me. Is it technical? I think it’s going to be the skill. Do [01:11:35] you do you presale, pre-sell, the crown, that sort of thing?

Ammar Al Hourani: I do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. To the patient.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Yeah. [01:11:40] Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Prep them for that.

Ammar Al Hourani: So I think I think it’s going to be similar to yourself. I mean I [01:11:45] do quite a lot of the chords myself. So I would say doing the chords, doing a lot of the hard work for you, prepping [01:11:50] you up for the essentially the, the glory shot being the crown, you [01:11:55] know, and I think that for most dentists would be great because they now know that and it’s been done well. [01:12:00] The core is being done well, being diagnosed properly. They’ve maybe picked up on other stuff that need to be dealt with. You know, [01:12:05] do that filling, do this filling. There’s maybe something here, something there. Keeps them busy in that respects. And [01:12:10] then you’ve got the crown ready for them. That makes you I think that makes you great. And I think being close to the referring dentist very, [01:12:15] very important, having that interpersonal relationship. So a lot of the dentists actually have my personal phone number. They’ll just call [01:12:20] me, text me, voice, message me at one in the morning, sometimes with a problem they’ve had. I think that’s quite nice being [01:12:25] able to be there. Sometimes it’s just counselling. I swear to God, sometimes it’s counselling.

Payman Langroudi: Look, [01:12:30] running a referral practice is a whole skill in itself. It’s a whole art [01:12:35] in itself because by its very nature, you’re constantly losing referrals, [01:12:40] aren’t you? It’s just the way it is. People fall off or they get an in house guy [01:12:45] or something.

Ammar Al Hourani: That’s why you have to constantly do study clubs and lunch and learns [01:12:50] and courses and talks and webinars and all sorts of things.

Payman Langroudi: Are you are you like sending back [01:12:55] like pretty reports and things as well?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. More so intern in house. No, I don’t [01:13:00] do the reports because like it’s already in house. Like you just open up, you know, Dental and check it, you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Externally. [01:13:05] No. Right. You had a really nice rapport with some x rays. Maybe some photos of this cracks. I’ll show you everything. So you [01:13:10] look at it and you go, wow, I’ve never seen that before, you know? And it’s quite nice in itself as educational, but like when I got Cbct report. [01:13:15] Yeah, the same thing. If it’s a really nice, beautiful one with all the angles and shots, [01:13:20] I’m reading it. I’m like, wow, I’m learning from this, you know? So that’s that I like. So yeah, I think [01:13:25] the majority of times I will send a referral, but if you’re in house I don’t send you a referral. I’ll just just read the reports [01:13:30] and have a look at my x rays.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve worked in so many practices. Tell [01:13:35] me your reflections on practices.

Ammar Al Hourani: I think some are really great and [01:13:40] some not so much. And I think it comes down to the principle.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, do you?

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. A [01:13:45] principles who works in the clinic and does as many hours as you do and really busts a [01:13:50] gut and works really hard and really shows that, you know, appreciates all the staff around them, [01:13:55] you work that little bit harder for because they’re there, they’re in the clinic, they know what’s going on. [01:14:00] They can they can do it. Whereas in clinics where the principle is not there to sort of sometimes associate Ron, [01:14:05] and then maybe there’s a manager. I’m not saying, you know, there’s some fantastic managers out there, but I don’t [01:14:10] think you’ll ever love your clinic as much as the owner themselves loves it and looks out for [01:14:15] it. Does that make sense? Like your own little baby when they’re there working really hard? Yeah, it motivates [01:14:20] you a little bit more as well to do better. And I think that found the most successful clinics where the principles [01:14:25] they are working with you. They’re the best ones.

Payman Langroudi: I’m more interested. I’m interested in that. [01:14:30] That’s beautiful. It’s wonderful insight. Yeah, but you’ve seen so many, so [01:14:35] many. Yeah. Like, let’s say 25 clinics where you’ve worked in [01:14:40] way more than your average dentist. So culture wise, [01:14:45] like you said, work hard. That’s one thing. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, you get sometimes [01:14:50] you get a principle who works hard. But he’s awful at like, hiring. Yeah. [01:14:55] Or awful at firing. I find awful at firing is one of the biggest crimes here. I’m definitely [01:15:00] guilty of that crime myself. Yeah. Yeah. Um. And so, like you were saying [01:15:05] to me before, one of your ambitions is to open your own actually multi [01:15:10] sort of specialist centre, not only Indo multi [01:15:15] specialist centre. What sort of lessons are you going to bring to that from [01:15:20] all the practices you’ve worked in. Like what mistakes have you seen.

Ammar Al Hourani: I think number one [01:15:25] I think value your nurse or value the nurses. Honestly I can’t I can’t stress that enough.

Payman Langroudi: I agree with that. [01:15:30]

Ammar Al Hourani: I can’t you can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Stress running the whole running the whole goddamn show, man.

Ammar Al Hourani: You know, they don’t earn enough money [01:15:35] as it is. I think they do. I mean, without my nurses that I work with, honestly, that I do end up with, I can’t achieve the level [01:15:40] of end that I can do. They. They get everything. They order stuff for me. They keep an eye on my book. They talk [01:15:45] to my patients, they keep them comfortable. They do a lot of work that I don’t have to do myself. [01:15:50] Whereas when you start getting temp nurses, oh my God, that becomes tricky. Not because they’re difficult people. They’re [01:15:55] actually a lot of them are really nice, hard working people. It’s not their it’s not their surgery. They don’t know where everything is suddenly. Now [01:16:00] that I know that, it takes me an hour and a half, taking me two hours. You know, it’s just a hard day. It feels like you’re walking [01:16:05] through mud all day. It’s a horrible situation. So look after your nurses is number one. [01:16:10] Second thing is having. Having a great TCO is wonderful because they deal with [01:16:15] all the money, all the chat, all the stuff that you feel you know, a bit uncomfortable with. I don’t like talking.

Payman Langroudi: About the nicest things [01:16:20] about endo is you don’t really have to sell anything though.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, it’s all so so but there the price, you know, sometimes they might [01:16:25] need an endo and a core and they need this. And does that add up to a point. And you go right. You know speak to so and [01:16:30] so. So I’m really lucky. For example, in Grantham I’ve got a couple of, you know, people that do that for me in other clinics. They do that for me [01:16:35] and they do all that talking for me. I don’t have to talk about money. It’s like, well, go and see so-and-so and she’ll walk [01:16:40] you through it and finance and whatnot. They’ll also look after your book, the referrals coming in or referrals coming [01:16:45] out, keeping an eye on things, keeping an eye on your book, making sure it’s busy, keeping in touch with your [01:16:50] referring dentist. That’s what’s going to make your work book work like clockwork, [01:16:55] you know? So I would do that differently. Um, generous Principles. [01:17:00] What do I mean by that? They buy you anything you want. I’m very lucky with the principles I work with. Now, if I send [01:17:05] them a list tomorrow morning, it’s in my drawer. They’ll never say, oh, why do you need this? Why do you need that? There’s an element [01:17:10] of me which also needs to use new stuff that’s coming out in the market. Sometimes you bought me a lot of stuff, but [01:17:15] now I need new stuff. And if you’ve got a progressive person in that clinic, they’ll be like, go for it. Because [01:17:20] they also want to keep going on with the times.

Ammar Al Hourani: Every five years things change. You know, file systems are changing all the time. You [01:17:25] know, there’s always new stuff. And I want to play with the new stuff. Otherwise I’m now stuck. Does that make sense? I’m now behind the times. [01:17:30] And because I teach, I need to also be preaching what I teach. If I’m saying, oh, buy this, this and this and I’m not [01:17:35] using it, I’m a bit of a hypocrite as well. To be fair. So you’ll come out very quickly, or when I’m demoing, it’s [01:17:40] going to look like I’ve never used that file system. Does that make sense? So I’ll look really stupid really, really quickly. So again, from that point [01:17:45] of view, generous principles are very, very good progressive principles. But then at the same time, they also need you to [01:17:50] be progressive as well. You need to be good. Talk, talk the talk patients need to be happy, comfortable with [01:17:55] what you’re doing. You’re not getting complaints. You know, you’re not getting a lot of retreatments and reworks of things that are failing. You [01:18:00] know you’re not causing more ruckus in the clinic. Does that make sense? So you’re also steadying the ship? So that’s why specialist [01:18:05] is a good job, but also a difficult job because I need to make sure I’m happy. Patients are happy. Principal [01:18:10] is happy. Referring dentists are happy. Staff are happy. Everyone has to be happy. It’s a lot of [01:18:15] constituencies. A lot of people have to be happy with your outcome. You’re always examined. Basically, every [01:18:20] end has been examined.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: And so yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That must be hard.

Ammar Al Hourani: At the beginning. [01:18:25] It is. But then now it’s not. Not so much. I think you get comfortable with it. It becomes your life.

Payman Langroudi: The other thing is, while [01:18:30] you haven’t got your own clinic, from the business perspective, your [01:18:35] earnings are capped only by the number of Indos you can physically [01:18:40] do.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. Hours that you can do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, there’s no. There’s no dream of. Hey, I might [01:18:45] double the business next year. No, that can’t happen.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, I already do 4 or 5 [01:18:50] days a week and I hit the absolute limit, so I’ve sort of saturated now, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:18:55] at the same time, I mean, while I was, I was advising all these students yesterday become [01:19:00] an endodontist. The reason I was doing that was because most lenders I know are really happy, man. Yeah, [01:19:05] they’re really happy. They’re earning good money. Yeah. What do you charge?

Ammar Al Hourani: Anywhere between 12. [01:19:10] 1000 to £1200 for a primary retreatments up to £1,400. [01:19:15]

Payman Langroudi: Could be more than that.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, I’m pretty good because I work in different demographics. So, [01:19:20] like, some areas can afford more than others. But I’m on a higher percentage. I’m in some clinics, I’m in higher than 50%. So [01:19:25] I’m always I’m doing I’m all right.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s a lab fee.

Ammar Al Hourani: There’s no lab fee. And also the good thing is [01:19:30] it’s a it works in both ways. You know, like if I work in your clinic because I do a lot of stuff and I do lots of courses [01:19:35] and stuff, you’re also getting a bit of free advertising. You know, you’re being put on the map as well at the same time. So it’s like, think of it as a [01:19:40] football player who gets the royalties for the shirts that they sell.

Payman Langroudi: How does it take you from over.

Ammar Al Hourani: About an hour.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:19:45] you’re doing like four a day or more.

Ammar Al Hourani: For four hours a day? Yeah, 4 to 5 a day.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not bad. [01:19:50] It’s not bad at all, man.

Ammar Al Hourani: Good. Good day’s income. Yeah. It’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Bad. And then. And then how many times a week are you [01:19:55] stumped? Like in trouble or month?

Ammar Al Hourani: In a month, maybe. [01:20:00] A handful of times. And my nurse knows that because she can smell my aftershave. She’s like, when [01:20:05] I smell your aftershave. I know you’re sweating. Yeah. And I start to. I start to breathe more heavily under the mask. I’m like, you know, [01:20:10] I’m really breathing hard because I’m getting angry. Not angry, but frustrated by the situation, you know? [01:20:15] But I think once you’ve done enough, then I know. I know at what point I can stop and say, you know what? [01:20:20] Payman. I’ve done everything I can. I’ve spent an hour on this. Like I don’t feel I can do any more. I’m [01:20:25] happy to refer you to another mate of mine to give it a go, but I think they’re going to also be going to be stuck. But it’s up to [01:20:30] yourself. Or we can finish now. Do surgery. Keep an eye on it. You know, I’m more confident now to say that’s [01:20:35] as far as I can push it. What would you like me to do going forward? Maybe 2 or 3 years ago? Not so much. [01:20:40] I would have kept pushing, pushing, pushing. Ten our mistake took place, you know, and then you’re like, oh, we shouldn’t do [01:20:45] that.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the teaching then. What is it? What’s what courses do you run? [01:20:50]

Ammar Al Hourani: So I run the. So two things I’ve essentially got two companies. The Indo Guys is [01:20:55] one. I started that off with my best friend during lockdown as a just keep me busy. So I started doing like webinars [01:21:00] for free and then it became I started working with a couple of companies doing almost. I [01:21:05] did free courses for about six months with a friend of mine, so I did that and that was really busy. And it was it was [01:21:10] good in two ways. Dentists were getting free courses and I was learning how to teach it, which is good. So [01:21:15] I was like, it was everyone was happy. So I’ve refined that and then started to slowly grow into Scotland. And then [01:21:20] I teamed up with my mentor, Sanjay Bhandari. He trained me as, as a doing my [01:21:25] specialist training. So that grew again. That helped me out. You know, he his experience was invaluable. He taught me [01:21:30] to be a good teacher as well, to be honest with you. But also you learn from a lot of people. You learn a bit here and there and you learn some stuff. [01:21:35] You’re like, no, I don’t like that. I’m not going to do that. So you create your own philosophy after a while.

Ammar Al Hourani: My philosophy was I [01:21:40] used to hate going to courses when I was at GDP, because a lot of it was a sales pitch to go and buy their bigger courses. [01:21:45] I hated that, I can’t tell you how much I hated it, or they would talk about how wonderful they are for half a [01:21:50] day, and then you do a little bit hands on an afternoon, you’re like, mate, how can I use that tomorrow morning? Like I’ve not learnt nothing today, [01:21:55] you know. So I wanted to do it. On how I would want to do it myself. So if I was now a delegate, what would I want? [01:22:00] Do the webinars or a lot of the teaching online and do a lot of the hands when I turn up? It’s all hands on. [01:22:05] By the time you’re done, you’re exhausted, so at least you’ve taken on 5 or 6 new tips that you could use on Monday [01:22:10] morning. So we do the principles of endodontics and I do the advanced endodontic course modules. They’re [01:22:15] both Royal College accredited. It’s fantastic. So they’re quality assured. And [01:22:20] we do a Cbct course as well, which is really nice. So that’s my UK courses.

Payman Langroudi: And then what’s the content [01:22:25] I mean the the first. So okay so how many days is it, how many webinars is it. And then how many [01:22:30] days is it.

Ammar Al Hourani: So principles of antibiotics is two days. Um webinars usually a day. Or we [01:22:35] do all the talks in the morning in an hour a couple of hours. Done. And then it’s access cavities, [01:22:40] uh, canal location, mechanical preparation using different file systems. But we teach you [01:22:45] the principles of it once you understand the principles of the whole concept. Kind of location. Pre-colonial. [01:22:50] Flaring. Patency. Glide path prep. You could use it on any file system, then obturation [01:22:55] or vertical and then just single cone technique, which is really straightforward. And a little bit about posting [01:23:00] cause when to use them. That’s day one. That’s day one and two. So by day two you’ve, you’ve sort of [01:23:05] got four years off. And on two days the advance is a little bit more. Obviously there’s trauma management, open [01:23:10] apices, perf repair RCT file fracture removal, ledge management, calcified [01:23:15] canals. So that’s a that’s a different thing. But I would always say maybe do a few more rondos before turning up [01:23:20] to that course because that’s much more advanced, you know. And you could you could tell who’s got the skills for it [01:23:25] and who doesn’t. I only do that maybe once or twice a year. Not not as often. Uh, and then. [01:23:30]

Payman Langroudi: If I wanted to become a dentist with a special interest in endo, you reckon if I do those [01:23:35] two courses, I’m anywhere near.

Ammar Al Hourani: No, I think that’s just for your day to day running of [01:23:40] things. You know, your bread and butter sort of dentistry. If you want to be a dentist, special interest, go and do a diploma. A [01:23:45] diploma.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Ammar Al Hourani: Pgcert or a diploma, or maybe finish it off and do your MSC. Msc is just the write up in [01:23:50] year three.

Payman Langroudi: Where would I get that?

Ammar Al Hourani: You could. Lots of great courses out there. So you can do the MSC at King’s, [01:23:55] the long distance one. Um, I think indoor art does one that’s really, really good with Bhavin and [01:24:00] his colleague. Um, where else? They simply end up in Liverpool. There’s Uclan that does a two year [01:24:05] accelerated master’s program with patients, which is fantastic, I think. [01:24:10]

Payman Langroudi: So yours is kind of a step before that.

Ammar Al Hourani: It’s a step. Yeah. I’d like to do one [01:24:15] where it’s a diploma.

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t got around to it yet.

Ammar Al Hourani: One, I haven’t got around to it. I’ve been really busy with a lot of other things. And [01:24:20] also, you need a team for it, and you need a lot of your time. And you need to cut down your clinical work to do it because it [01:24:25] takes up a day of your week just, you know, making sure they’ve got the cases and it becomes its own in [01:24:30] every sense, its own business, of course. Yeah. You know, with cohorts and people are paying a lot of money. So you need to make sure [01:24:35] that they’re getting the quality that they deserve. So that needs a lot of its own attention. And and it needs people [01:24:40] to partner up with me that will be able to do that at my the way I want to do it. And that’s tricky [01:24:45] to be honest. So and then the other course I do is in India. That’s my India courses and the restorative [01:24:50] with two of my really close friends. And we do that.

Payman Langroudi: How often do you do that?

Ammar Al Hourani: 3 to 4 times a year. [01:24:55]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ammar Al Hourani: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Is it in the same place in India?

Ammar Al Hourani: Every time? Yeah. Mumbai. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s fantastic fun in India. [01:25:00]

Ammar Al Hourani: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Why is it fun?

Ammar Al Hourani: Love it, love it, love it. Brilliant, brilliant. Country people are lovely. [01:25:05] It’s changed my.

Payman Langroudi: Life. Delegate wise, what’s the main difference between Indian delegates?

Ammar Al Hourani: So [01:25:10] the first thing. I think we’re lucky in the UK that we’ve got more of a standardised training. [01:25:15] I think when you come at dental school, you’re all very much similar.

Payman Langroudi: Or you get lots of different.

Ammar Al Hourani: You’ve got lots [01:25:20] of dental schools. I mean, I think after Brazil they’ve got the second most dental schools in the world, so you’ve got all sorts. [01:25:25] The second thing is we get a lot of specialists on our course.

Payman Langroudi: And specialists.

Ammar Al Hourani: And those specialists, because a lot of [01:25:30] them, you know, there’s obviously different ways of teaching Ando and some of them is theoretical, some of them with little hands on patients, some of them with [01:25:35] just K files. They’ve never used rotary. So I would say about 30% of our delegates are actually endodontists. Wow. [01:25:40] Because they want to learn rotary. They’ve never, never tried rotary.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: So that’s really, really nice. So that ups your [01:25:45] game a little bit more because now you’re dealing with people who understand the theory very respectful, very hard working [01:25:50] people. They really value education. They don’t take it for granted, which is very, very important because it’s very expensive. [01:25:55] You know, we charge 350, £400 for the course for two days in India. People [01:26:00] take out a bank loan for that.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you charge for your course here? [01:26:05]

Ammar Al Hourani: Just charge for 1000.

Payman Langroudi: For two days.

Ammar Al Hourani: Two days? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Again, that seems a little cheap.

Ammar Al Hourani: I [01:26:10] want it to be affordable for the masses. You know, my bread and butter. I’m really blessed in that I [01:26:15] earn good money from my private practice. That I don’t really have to rely on. My. This is sort of like a [01:26:20] bit of a bit, not a bit of charity, but, you know, a little bit of something different that I do once or twice a month. Does that make sense? It’s not my bread [01:26:25] and butter income. Yeah. So I keep it on. Sometimes I do it as low as 700 £850. [01:26:30] It depends. If you come in a group it comes down in price a little bit more. So it’s affordable. It still [01:26:35] earns me what I would earn in practice on those two days. And so therefore I’m not out of pocket. I’m not making it as a profitable [01:26:40] business. I’m not running it that way.

Payman Langroudi: I guess you get the referrals off those people.

Ammar Al Hourani: You get the referral. Yeah. Yes and no. If I’m doing it in Manchester [01:26:45] or Scotland, I’m not getting any referrals from it. So it’s like the people that teach with me that get the referrals, but [01:26:50] I’m doing it because I enjoy the teaching. You get to meet people, you’re out of the clinic. You know, you’re not stuck in that room under [01:26:55] a microscope. Under the microscope, it’s you versus you. You know, you’re in your own brain. Yeah. You know, you’re stuck in that little box, [01:27:00] which is the tooth, basically. And it can get a bit frustrating if you do it all day, every day. You know, it does get frustrating. [01:27:05] So you get burnt out. You can get burnt out really quick. I think as an end dentist, that’s the thing you have to be careful of. [01:27:10] So that’s why you know your mental health, playing sport, socialising, it gets [01:27:15] out of your brain, you need to get out of your brain. I know that sounds weird, but you know you’re in your brain all the time. It’s for real. You know, [01:27:20] I think.

Payman Langroudi: Any, any bit of dentistry, which is intense. Yeah, intense. [01:27:25] Much of dentistry is intense. But but if you’re if you’re doing things to a certain standard, I [01:27:30] think four days a week is enough for me.

Ammar Al Hourani: Not enough. I mean, I do five because I’m busy.

Payman Langroudi: Cos [01:27:35] you’re hardcore.

Ammar Al Hourani: But no, it’s not because I’m hardcore. It’s just you’re busy, you’re waiting list. You know, people are waiting.

Payman Langroudi: Up, [01:27:40] your prices up.

Ammar Al Hourani: But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Really that’s the correct move. But I’m just saying. Four days. You can be peak. [01:27:45] Not everyone. I know some dudes. Yeah, there’s six days a week.

Ammar Al Hourani: I don’t know, six days.

Payman Langroudi: Too much, but. [01:27:50] But my point is, if it’s if it’s any level of dentistry where, you know, it’s very intense, the, [01:27:55] you know, let’s face it, dentistry is physically hard. First of all, you’re back and your eyes and all [01:28:00] that. But then mentally hard too. And then the thing you said about being sued. Yeah. That’s constantly [01:28:05] in your face. Right. So it’s mentally hard in different ways. Yeah. I’d say four days enough, [01:28:10] man. Um, let’s move on to errors. We like talking about mistakes. From [01:28:15] from black box thinking. The idea that, you know, people will actually learn from your mistakes. [01:28:20] What what what comes to mind when I say clinical errors? What [01:28:25] mistakes did you make and what can we all learn from it?

Ammar Al Hourani: Um, [01:28:30] so yeah, choosing the wrong materials is one is one mistake. I’ll never forget that. Did [01:28:35] an access cavity? I thought I had an endo z-bar to open up the access. Yeah, and I actually had that [01:28:40] tungsten carbide burr like a proper cutting bone burr and I drilled the bloomin tooth, and [01:28:45] that was a mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the endeavour. What is that?

Ammar Al Hourani: So the Endo Z burr is a is a bald [01:28:50] tip burr side cutting bolt. So if you go into the axe, you know, if you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. [01:28:55]

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not going to do too much damage.

Ammar Al Hourani: You can’t you can’t perforate unless you really put your welly into it. It’s really, [01:29:00] really hard. You’re gonna have to really go at it to, to perforate it. Yeah, yeah. Here I took a bird that looked almost identical. [01:29:05]

Payman Langroudi: I just picked up the wrong.

Ammar Al Hourani: Picked it up. I just didn’t see it. Picked it up, put it in before you perforated.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:29:10] because you were thinking it can’t.

Ammar Al Hourani: Oh, I was like, oh, this is really nice and smooth. It didn’t feel [01:29:15] any different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah, yeah. And I was like, what the hell is this?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, interesting.

Ammar Al Hourani: And it was essentially [01:29:20] created an osteotomy. Uh.

Payman Langroudi: What happened? [01:29:25]

Ammar Al Hourani: Well, first off, I, you know, shat myself. Yeah. I’m not going to lie to you. I was [01:29:30] I was panicked, and I’m really difficult. I just don’t know how to lie. Like, it’s [01:29:35] sort of like you could see some things happen. You can see it from all aspects of my body.

Payman Langroudi: Basically the [01:29:40] everything.

Ammar Al Hourani: I’m just like, read. I’m just, like, bewildered by what just happened. Has it just happened to [01:29:45] me? You know, that type of thing? I just said to the patient, I’m really, really sorry. This is what’s happened. I think it’s beyond it’s beyond repair now [01:29:50] because I really screwed it. But I was honest, I was like, I’m really sorry. I’m going to pay for the for your implant. [01:29:55] I’ll fix the whole thing up and I’ll pay for any future implant. And it’s my really, really good friend Adeel. Adeel Ali, [01:30:00] great guy. Implant just called him up and I was like, mate, I’ve. I’ve created a booboo here. Could you do this for [01:30:05] me? And I’ll owe you one down the line. And that was exactly what happened. Did it for nothing. And [01:30:10] I was lucky because I’m lucky with the people I work with.

Payman Langroudi: Was he cool? Was the patient cool?

Ammar Al Hourani: Very cool, very cool. I said, [01:30:15] like, I’m really sorry. It’s a mistake. It’s never happened to me. It was my mistake. So whatever you want to do going forward, do. [01:30:20] If you want to complain, complain if you want to. But I can remedy for this.

Payman Langroudi: One that didn’t go so well. [01:30:25]

Ammar Al Hourani: Um, okay. So I had a patient that comes in sometimes you have to you have [01:30:30] to take on how do I explain this? You have to listen to your gut instinct.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Your spidey sense. [01:30:35] Right.

Ammar Al Hourani: Patient came in, uh, pretty nasty to reception. Pretty nasty on the phone. [01:30:40] Nasty guy, you know, but a really nice to me. That’s the first thing I learned, [01:30:45] you know? Now, like, this is when I was maybe three years, three, four years ago. So the patient. [01:30:50] Massive crack across the whole tooth. Big lesion, sinus, deep localised pocket. [01:30:55] This tooth is gone. Kept begging me to investigate it for him. Do that until I [01:31:00] went against my judgement. I felt sorry for him. You know, he’s like, you know, [01:31:05] I’ve got this. And that’s when my daughter’s not well and my son’s this and I’m looking after my mom. You know, he’s just sitting there going, [01:31:10] you know, if I, you know. So I did it because I thought that was the right thing to do. Started doing the endo. The tooth was [01:31:15] gone, took photos and a video, and I had a gut instinct. This guy wasn’t nice. You know, I had a bad feeling about this guy. So [01:31:20] I videoed the whole thing. And then I told him, it’s not going to be it’s not going to work. So I made him an appointment [01:31:25] again with my colleague. Same one. He then didn’t turn up to his appointment. Great. Cool. No [01:31:30] problem. Then the complaints start coming from 7:00 [01:31:35] in the morning till 12 in the afternoon. He’d already sent about 11 complaints. Each complaint [01:31:40] was almost like a chapter out of Pathway to Pulp.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my God. What a nutter.

Ammar Al Hourani: All sorts of stuff. All [01:31:45] sorts of allegations. Like I’m lying to him. I’m trying to pay my debts. I’m trying to make money to pay off my car. [01:31:50] My lifestyle mate. Like I have a normal lifestyle. I don’t I’m not lavish in any way, shape or form. And [01:31:55] this went on for hours. Hours. Then I got a letter [01:32:00] from one of the law partnerships. Crap. Myself, obviously. [01:32:05] Again because I was just about to go on holiday, so I was like, you know, it just happened before I went on holiday. Thankfully, the learning [01:32:10] experience here is I took videos and photos of everything, so that got quashed instantly. So [01:32:15] I was lucky in that respect. But that learning experience was just listen to your gut instinct [01:32:20] and take photos of everything. Because had I not taken photos, it’s you, you know, he said. She [01:32:25] said. And it’s always on the side of.

Payman Langroudi: The letter came in from Dental law and then similar.

Ammar Al Hourani: To Dental law was in Dental [01:32:30] law is a different one of those different. One of the other lawyer law companies.

Payman Langroudi: Called your.

Ammar Al Hourani: Indemnity. I was like, what the hell [01:32:35] is going on here? And I was with TDs Taylor Defence Society and I know Neil Taylor. [01:32:40] He used to do some talks for us when we were at doing so. I knew him a very, very [01:32:45] long time ago and bumped into him a few times. And I literally in that email said, I want to speak to this guy directly. I want to go straight [01:32:50] to the barrister. I don’t want, you know, I’m sorry. I don’t want anyone in the middle ground. I want straight to him. He [01:32:55] wrote a great letter. He was like, listen, this part here, paragraph [01:33:00] one. Yep. If you want to take him, take him. The other stuff, my my, my my client is going to take you for [01:33:05] slander, because unless you can prove.

Payman Langroudi: And it went away, he disappeared.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. [01:33:10] We sent the video, sent everything, then disappeared.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice.

Ammar Al Hourani: And it was the the law partnership to be [01:33:15] fair on them. That company, it wasn’t Dental law partner. It was a different company altogether. They also were starting to deal [01:33:20] with that individual. And I think they also thought that this guy’s a bit of a nutter.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: And they wanted nothing to do with [01:33:25] it either. And because they saw all the allegations, like, how are you going to prove any of that stuff that I’m using it to pay my debts and I [01:33:30] don’t have any debts. I’ve paid my debts off a long time ago, you know what I mean? So it’s now it’s very difficult to prove the five [01:33:35] six hours worth of fare.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you lucked out a little bit. I was very lucky because, you know, dental law partnership number [01:33:40] one, they go and buy dental cases from other law firms. Really, because they know how to weaponize [01:33:45] dental cases. They in the in the legal world they’re famous for that how quickly they buy [01:33:50] dental cases. Um, but number two, the fact that your spidey sense kicked in and [01:33:55] you videoed and documented properly.

Ammar Al Hourani: And I think the third thing I think is quite tricky. I [01:34:00] think that’s another thing about being a specialist. It’s pretty tricky to go after a specialist, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: Because I [01:34:05] can defend myself. Honestly. I can go to court and I’ll go and read the papers.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Ammar Al Hourani: Pull all the papers out. And actually I would [01:34:10] speak to all my friends and I’d be like, guys, would you be interested to go in? And they would all like a little fight as well. And they’d all come up [01:34:15] and they’ll all be like, listen, this is nonsense. So it’s very difficult to prove I’ve been below [01:34:20] satisfaction because I’ve done everything by the book. Well, what could I’ve what could have someone else done different than [01:34:25] me? So it’s very difficult now to prove. And most of the studies are great for studies on a, you know, [01:34:30] that, you know, on a cat, you know, on a goat, on a dentine tubules slab, you [01:34:35] know, on a on a test tube. How does that show that? I’m. I’ve worked below standard. You can’t prove [01:34:40] that I’ve done anything wrong here. Does that make sense? It’s very difficult to get these studies now to say, because I could turn around and say, well, that was [01:34:45] done on a cat. So we don’t have that problem in, you know, human teeth.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:34:50]

Ammar Al Hourani: And before you know it, you can. Yeah. But it’s going to take you years to get out of that. That’s I mean, that’s going to be ongoing [01:34:55] for a long time before you get out.

Payman Langroudi: I think you take it for granted. Right. Because you’ve done the the [01:35:00] specialising you’ve done the PhD. So navigating your way around evidence based dentistry [01:35:05] is like drinking water for you. Yeah. A regular guy with panic. Panic. And [01:35:10] then some expert witness comes in and says something. Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: And then when was the last time you did dentistry? [01:35:15] 20 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Suddenly your career, your life’s on the brink. Right.

Ammar Al Hourani: And that’s a shame. That’s a real shame. That’s [01:35:20] a real, real shame.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I don’t I don’t want to be the guy who scares everyone. I was talking to these young kids. [01:35:25] They’re all scared of it, right? And it’s not, you know, peak GDC is over.

Ammar Al Hourani: I think [01:35:30] so, I think now they’ve got all this newer filter systems, which are quite good. I think they are sort of slowly changing [01:35:35] with the times, which I think is even.

Payman Langroudi: Dental all partnerships over. You know.

Ammar Al Hourani: I think because, yeah, I think because they’re having to [01:35:40] be a bit more crafty with who they take on because I think they’ve lost a lot of the insurances on failures, I think. So I think [01:35:45] that’s why they’re now being more I think, I mean, I know a lot of people talk about the American system, but in America [01:35:50] you’ve got market forces. You can’t just, you know, if you sue me wrongly, I can go after you and everyone that’s [01:35:55] ever known you, you know, so you’re going to be extremely careful as to who you’re going to go after. And I think [01:36:00] that then stabilises the market. Does that make. Causes a natural equilibrium.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas here they’ve been suing [01:36:05] each other longer than we have. You know, it’s they’ve figured that stuff out. Exactly.

Ammar Al Hourani: Whereas we were sort of a little [01:36:10] bit of a sitting duck. It’s like, oh, you shouldn’t really sue your patient, you know, all that sort of stuff because it does feel bad, like [01:36:15] you really shouldn’t be doing it. But at the same time, you can’t just come up with a crap, you know, crazy complaint [01:36:20] against me and not expect me to do something about it. It’s like being punched in the street. You’re not going to not punch the guy back, you [01:36:25] know what I mean? It’s like it’s human nature to defend yourself, you know? So we’re not like, we’re not all [01:36:30] like that. Sort of like holy, holier than holy. Yet, you know, I don’t think we’re we’re not there. [01:36:35]

Payman Langroudi: I’ve really enjoyed it, man. I’ve really enjoyed it. Hour and 40 minutes in, I’m gonna finish [01:36:40] off with the usual questions.

Ammar Al Hourani: All right.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy [01:36:45] dinner party. Three guests. Dead. Dead or alive?

Ammar Al Hourani: Dead or alive? Uh, first one, [01:36:50] I’d sit down with Jose Mourinho. I love Jose.

Payman Langroudi: Mourinho. Yeah.

Ammar Al Hourani: He’s cool. He’s a he’s a cool guy.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:36:55] he’s a football fan.

Ammar Al Hourani: Yeah. United fan. Huge. Um, I think he’s a great guy. I love the way [01:37:00] he talks. There’s an element of mystery about him. I think he’s very smart. He’s a very smart guy. Um, [01:37:05] yeah. I’d love to pick his brains. Uh, the second one, I mean, these are now the two one [01:37:10] people would know. People one people wouldn’t know first. The second guy salaheddine. I’d love to sit with him, you know, through the crusader [01:37:15] time, because he did a bit of a miracle for the Arabs at that time, when things were looking pretty damn bad. And [01:37:20] it was a miracle, basically what he did, what he achieved. So I’d like to just sort of pick his brain as to what made him do what he did. Was [01:37:25] it coincidences? Was it luck? Was it you know, I think there’s always a tactics and all that [01:37:30] sort of stuff. The third one people won’t know this is Khalid ibn Al-Walid. Now he’s a leader. [01:37:35] During the time that the Prophet Muhammad was just starting to expand outside the Asian Saudi [01:37:40] peninsula or the Arabian Peninsula as the expansion was happening. And he’s a military leader that [01:37:45] is one of the most studied. He never lost a battle. He is he committed miracles all the time. [01:37:50] And so that’s a guy that I like reading up about a lot just to know what is it? [01:37:55] What was it about him basically, you know, is it because he was very good at deception, battle, deception and all that sort of stuff [01:38:00] at that era? So he committed absolute miracles with a lot of the battles. And I actually studied [01:38:05] a lot of it studied in British history as well. They study it a lot in Sandhurst, how he did all this stuff, because it’s quite [01:38:10] novel. I think that’s the three people I talk to. I’d like to understand how they work.

Payman Langroudi: Are you religious? [01:38:15]

Ammar Al Hourani: Um, I wouldn’t say I’m religious, but I would say I fear God. Yeah, I love [01:38:20] God, I fear God. I try to do my prayers. I try to be as good a muslim as I can be.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t that religious? [01:38:25]

Ammar Al Hourani: But no, I think religious is when you go above and beyond. I think, you know, I think that’s the basics. I think I think that’s the [01:38:30] absolute basics to be a good Muslim. I think I think if you do the basics well as a muslim, I think you’re okay. [01:38:35] Obviously I’m not preaching it. Don’t, don’t you know? But I think if you’re a good person, you’ve got good intentions [01:38:40] in life and you do the basics well, you don’t, you know, you don’t mean any harm to anyone. [01:38:45] I think. I don’t see why you shouldn’t have a good chance of going to heaven, you [01:38:50] know, because you’re not doing any bad.

Payman Langroudi: So. So the final question, the three pieces of advice is that have [01:38:55] you just given them to me or what’s up? I know it’s honestly the.

Ammar Al Hourani: Best advice for me, honestly, is always [01:39:00] if I was speaking to my friend the other day about it and I was like, you know, work hard, um, have good intentions [01:39:05] and eventually everything comes to you. It just does, whether you like it or not, it [01:39:10] will always come good, will always come to you, you know? Just don’t harm anyone. Just be a good person. And if you.

Payman Langroudi: Are, the intentions [01:39:15] point is a really brilliant nuance. Yeah, it’s a really brilliant when when things go wrong. [01:39:20] If your intentions were right that you should be much better. [01:39:25] Much better.

Ammar Al Hourani: And even if it doesn’t go in your way, you can at least sleep at night because you did it by your intentions. [01:39:30]

Payman Langroudi: You know, intentions are really important.

Ammar Al Hourani: And I think that’s the beauty of the whole thing. I really.

Payman Langroudi: Really [01:39:35] enjoyed it. Really learned a lot, man. Really, really enjoyed having you. Thanks so much for coming in after all this time.

[VOICE]: This [01:39:40] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [01:39:45] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:39:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and [01:39:55] Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. If you got this far, [01:40:00] you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually [01:40:05] sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming [01:40:10] you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:40:15] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank [01:40:20] you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.