Georgia Meacham opens up about her journey as a deaf model and actress, sharing her transformation from hiding her hearing aids to becoming a proud advocate for disability visibility. 

Through honest conversation with Rhona and Payman, Georgia reveals how embracing her identity has improved her mental health and inspired others. Her story touches on themes of authenticity, representation in media, and the importance of normalising difference in society.

 

In This Episode

00:01:35 – Early diagnosis and childhood experiences
00:03:30 – Navigating mainstream education
00:05:05 – Speech therapy and communication development
00:07:00 – Family support and building confidence
00:16:15 – Hidden struggles and career challenges
00:25:10 – Mental health transformation
00:31:00 – Discussion on privilege and responsibility
00:41:35 – Breaking into modelling and managing rejection
00:44:45 – Technology and accessibility in healthcare
00:53:35 – Moments of feeling truly understood
00:57:05 – Supporting the deaf community
01:00:45 – Final thoughts on vulnerability and connection

 

About Georgia Meacham

Georgia Meacham is a model and actress who was diagnosed as deaf at 16 months old. Standing at six feet tall, she has worked in both commercial and catwalk modelling for nearly a decade. After years of hiding her hearing aids, Georgia has become a powerful advocate for disability visibility and mental health awareness, using her platform to inspire others to embrace their authentic selves.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hi [00:00:25] everyone, welcome to Mind Movers. So as always, I bring the most inspirational [00:00:30] and aspirational guests with me. Georgia meachum is an incredible advocate [00:00:35] for mental health and inclusion. As a deaf individual, she has broken barriers and inspired [00:00:40] many by sharing her unique journey and insights. George’s work focuses [00:00:45] on empowering others to embrace their mental health challenges and promoting inclusivity in every [00:00:50] aspect of life. She’s also an absolute babe. She’s a strong believer that our differences [00:00:55] make us stronger, and she’s here today to share her powerful story and expert advice. [00:01:00] Welcome, Georgia.

Georgia Meacham: Thank you for having me. First and foremost, welcome.

Rhona Eskander: And for those [00:01:05] of you watching YouTube, don’t forget to like and subscribe because I’m really trying to grow it for those who want long form. And [00:01:10] you can see how amazing Georgia’s denim jacket is and how incredible, how incredible that she looks. [00:01:15] So, Georgia, can you share a bit about your journey as a deaf individual and how that’s [00:01:20] shaped your perspective on mental health? I want to get right into it.

Georgia Meacham: Wow. I mean, it’s [00:01:25] such a big question because, um, yeah, [00:01:30] where to begin? I think I’m going to start with the fact that.

Rhona Eskander: You were born deaf.

Georgia Meacham: Right? I was [00:01:35] born deaf, and I had my first hearing aids fitted when I was 16 months old. Sorry, 17 months [00:01:40] after failing to hearing tests. Um, this kind [00:01:45] of became apparent to my mum when she was saying things, and I was only repeating part [00:01:50] of words back, and so she was like, there’s something not quite right. [00:01:55]

Rhona Eskander: Let’s just as a baby, were you crying and things like that, you know?

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, it was just [00:02:00] my mom would be, you know, saying my name, and I just wouldn’t be responding. [00:02:05] So she was there was just. And she’d. I’m the second child. So she was obviously [00:02:10] comparing to my brother, who I’m the first deaf person in the family. So there was [00:02:15] she knew that something was different. Um, but yeah, back to the mental health side [00:02:20] of things. I think I for so long was ashamed and embarrassed [00:02:25] by the devices that literally helped me get by in everyday [00:02:30] life. I wouldn’t be here today without them. And and I think [00:02:35] the point that I started to really embrace them and [00:02:40] realised that actually this is a beautiful part of who I am, and I wouldn’t [00:02:45] be who I am without that part of me. Um, it has helped my [00:02:50] mental health hugely, and I think I’ve [00:02:55] never been happier Because I can now just show up [00:03:00] whether it’s to work things, to social things as myself and not [00:03:05] have to worry about not hearing because people don’t know or not getting the right [00:03:10] help. And yeah, now I speak up for myself and I.

Rhona Eskander: So when the [00:03:15] hearing aid was fitted, um, how did it affect your learning [00:03:20] journey? So did you go to how was school? Did you get bullied? Like talk a little bit through [00:03:25] that.

Georgia Meacham: So there’s always the situation that when you find out your child is deaf, obviously it [00:03:30] was a huge thing for my parents. They were trying to navigate a whole new journey [00:03:35] as well. Um, and, you know, your child can try to learn how to talk, or [00:03:40] they can learn how to sign, or they can try and do both, and [00:03:45] they can go to a deaf school. Um, I believe in the UK there’s 22 deaf schools, or [00:03:50] they can try and go to a mainstream school. And you know, [00:03:55] my parents, obviously wanting the best opportunities for me, thought that going [00:04:00] to a mainstream school and seeing if I could learn how to talk would be the best option. [00:04:05] Um, and yeah, I think it was the best option [00:04:10] because I was pushed, um, [00:04:15] and I had to overcome so many challenges by being [00:04:20] in environments where I’m not people like me aren’t [00:04:25] necessarily thought of, um, and accessibility needs aren’t always [00:04:30] matched. So I’ve always learned how to be adaptable and I’ve. Yeah. [00:04:35]

Rhona Eskander: And did you so did you. Because obviously when I speak to you now, like [00:04:40] your speech is perfect, is that unique to your journey or is that something that, [00:04:45] um, is accessible to people that are born deaf?

Georgia Meacham: It’s actually really interesting because [00:04:50] I do have a bit of a lisp because of my hearing. Um, and [00:04:55] I have been made of made fun of that before, and a lot of people haven’t realised [00:05:00] that the way my speech is, how it is, because I’m deaf. But yeah, I do speak well, I [00:05:05] don’t have a very strong deaf accent, but that’s because I’ve had to work hard, and I think people forget [00:05:10] that I’ve had to work a bit harder than everyone else. I had speech therapy at [00:05:15] lunchtimes from the age of three.

Rhona Eskander: Um.

Georgia Meacham: And, [00:05:20] you know, instead of going out to play with other children, I was with my speech therapist [00:05:25] for half an hour every day at school. So there’s a lot of behind the [00:05:30] scenes that I don’t think people realise that deaf children have to go through to in [00:05:35] order to cope in a mainstream society. Um, so yeah, my speech [00:05:40] is good because I’ve, I’ve worked I’ve worked hard, basically. Um, and [00:05:45] also being in the entertainment industry, I’ve had to work on it even harder. [00:05:50] But something really interesting whenever I meet Voice coaches or dialect [00:05:55] coaches. They can tell straight away from the way I talk.

Payman Langroudi: Georgia, [00:06:00] you know you haven’t got kids, have you?

Georgia Meacham: No I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: So not [00:06:05] yet.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With kids, I always thought that the one thing you can [00:06:10] do for your child is make them confident.

Georgia Meacham: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And with [00:06:15] your disability? Yes. Is that how you refer to the disability? Yeah. [00:06:20] With your disability. Becoming an actress or [00:06:25] an influencer would be, like, one of the most difficult things to do. And yet you had the [00:06:30] confidence to want to be that person. Do you put that down to your upbringing, or [00:06:35] was there some event in childhood that sort of made you think, I’m [00:06:40] going to dominate? I’m going to watch too many. I mean, you could have been an accountant [00:06:45] or a.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Um. Oh, gosh, there’s there’s so much [00:06:50] to that question because I say it and say it again. My parents and my [00:06:55] family. I have the most incredible support system and I think that’s vital if [00:07:00] you are, if you have some sort of difference. Um, because these are the people [00:07:05] that will rally you and be behind you. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So were they overcompensating [00:07:10] and really being behind you more than.

Georgia Meacham: No, I don’t think they were, because [00:07:15] I, I had a fear that I never wanted to be treated [00:07:20] differently. So that’s why I’ve always worked hard. I’ve always pushed myself. I’ve [00:07:25] never wanted that extra help. Um, and [00:07:30] the reason that I fell into acting was because [00:07:35] I could. Forget about. I [00:07:40] could be on a stage and my difference wasn’t a thing. Does [00:07:45] that make sense? And also the the beautiful part of acting is that you can tell [00:07:50] other people’s stories for people that can’t. And I think again, [00:07:55] when when you have some sort of difference, you [00:08:00] rely on those platforms, whether it’s TV, film, we learn so [00:08:05] much, don’t we? We learn about all different disabilities, diversity [00:08:10] through film and TV. And I think that’s something that made me really connect to the entertainment [00:08:15] industry.

Rhona Eskander: Was there any discrimination though? I mean, did people say like, oh no, [00:08:20] we don’t think that she’ll be okay for the role because she’s deaf? You know, did you experience anything [00:08:25] like that?

Georgia Meacham: Well, because I hid it for so long. That’s where the.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:08:30] how did you hide it?

Georgia Meacham: Um, I was taking them out. If I had to wear my hair [00:08:35] up and I was relying on lip reading.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Georgia Meacham: Which is why I was [00:08:40] absolutely exhausted every single day. Um, yeah, it [00:08:45] was tiring. I was, like, carrying away every day because I was [00:08:50] trying to hide. If I had say, if I had them in and I had my [00:08:55] hair down, I was so worried that someone would notice them. So I was [00:09:00] just like working three jobs at once, hiding them, trying [00:09:05] to lip read, trying to keep this secret. It was. Yeah, it was exhausting. Even [00:09:10] my agents who were, you know, sending me towards the jobs, they didn’t have a clue. Wow. Um, [00:09:15] yeah. And do you know what? I never like to look back, because obviously [00:09:20] my journey, I think, has made me super strong. And. [00:09:25] Yeah, I’ve lost my track [00:09:30] of thought because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting thing that it’s something that you can hide and. [00:09:35]

Georgia Meacham: It’s almost an invisible disability.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: And that’s why I think it’s so hard for people [00:09:40] that do have invisible disabilities, because you have to tell people about it. [00:09:45] You know, it’s not obvious if you’re.

Rhona Eskander: Wearing the same as mental health. Right. Exactly which is. Hence [00:09:50] why. And I think that that’s still so massively stigmatised. And obviously I’m not one of these people, [00:09:55] but I would also assume that because people don’t understand what it’s like [00:10:00] to be deaf, where they sometimes can see a physical disability, it’s almost like they have more empathy [00:10:05] for things that they can see. And, you know, it just doesn’t get any better. [00:10:10] I watched I don’t know if you’ve seen it, I really recommend it. The Avicii documentary [00:10:15] yesterday. So you guys remember it.

Georgia Meacham: You know what? I really want to watch it. But the [00:10:20] thought of it already upsets me because.

Rhona Eskander: It’s so sad because he was your classic [00:10:25] creative talent that literally loved making music. He [00:10:30] wasn’t driven by fame, he wasn’t driven by money. He just loved making [00:10:35] music. And he was discovered when he was like 18 or 19. That’s when levels came out. Like, you remember that [00:10:40] song. And he grew to this, like astronomical level of fame. And again, [00:10:45] like, it might be a little bit cognisant with Amy Winehouse in a way where they [00:10:50] are such creative people. Someone sees their talent and the person that sees [00:10:55] their talent is the driving force between that kind of commercial capitalist [00:11:00] thing that pushes them and pushes them and pushes them, and when their mental health deteriorates, [00:11:05] in hindsight, they’re like, oh, we just didn’t know. And you [00:11:10] know, and we didn’t know it was that bad. And it’s like, but we keep repeating the same [00:11:15] mistakes. And I think it’s the same with like disabilities. You know, we can all say in hindsight, should have [00:11:20] done that. Shouldn’t have done that. Yeah. We’re all changing. I don’t really believe many people do actually [00:11:25] change because there’s another Avicii and there’s another Amy Winehouse and there’s another celebrity. [00:11:30]

Georgia Meacham: I think a huge part of a huge part of it with these specific [00:11:35] people as well, is that they don’t know how to voice their struggles. They don’t know how [00:11:40] to communicate to their loved ones. This is how I feel sometimes. You don’t know how to communicate [00:11:45] what you’re feeling. Um, so I think that’s why therapy. I’ll go on [00:11:50] about therapy forever, because it’s just great in, just in in order of practising these [00:11:55] types of conversations, role play, you know, pretending your therapist is your close friend and saying, [00:12:00] okay, this is what I’m feeling at the moment. How can you help me? And also [00:12:05] just asking for help. It’s still stigmatised.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes. The vocabulary [00:12:10] of therapy. Yes, I’ve learned so many words from you, just from you, but you just bring them there [00:12:15] in your sort of vernacular.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, there we go.

Payman Langroudi: And other people.

Georgia Meacham: Don’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: People haven’t got the vocab. [00:12:20]

Rhona Eskander: But that’s the thing. Like talking about being picky like life partner thing. Like for me, it was somebody that had emotional [00:12:25] awareness and emotional intelligence. And that’s very lacking in the healthcare profession because [00:12:30] scientists and very logical people don’t necessarily have incredible. And that’s why [00:12:35] Payman Payman, you do have great empathy as well, but it’s rare, like [00:12:40] empathy is quite rare in our in our in our profession.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t go that far. I wouldn’t [00:12:45] go that far.

Rhona Eskander: Well, rare. It’s not. You don’t think it’s rare? No. I think it’s incredibly rare. Not, I think. Have you [00:12:50] met lots of doctors that have empathy, would you say? No.

Georgia Meacham: Thank you. My granddad was a scientist. [00:12:55] And my mum, who is like me, she’s so sensitive, [00:13:00] so empathetic. We talked to each other about everything. She grew up with her dad. [00:13:05] Who’s this medical scientist? And just the conversations. [00:13:10] They were never on a deep level, and she really struggled with that.

Payman Langroudi: But a scientist is different [00:13:15] to a healthcare worker.

Rhona Eskander: No, I know. I think it’s all very similar. Payman. You’re wrong. Okay. For [00:13:20] example, I went on Shivani’s podcast. Um, before Christmas, I had something [00:13:25] really awful happened to me medically, um, about a few days [00:13:30] before. And Shivani said to me, do you still want to come on the podcast? And I was like, you know what? It’s fine. I’ll just get through it. Probably [00:13:35] didn’t look my best on the podcast, lost a substantial amount of weight because of what I was going through. [00:13:40] Anyways, I was on the podcast clip on TikTok and Talk and someone doctor [00:13:45] something or other. I’m not going to expose them, goes, oh my God, what the hell’s happened to Doctor Rona? [00:13:50] So I commented back, being like, what do you mean? And they didn’t reply. So then I wrote them a message saying, what do [00:13:55] you mean? And I was like, I don’t mean to be rude, but you’ve lost all of your buccal fat. [00:14:00] You’ve got temporal hollowing. Basically tore my face apart, right? And I was like, I was actually [00:14:05] going through something, man, I don’t know, to be honest, cuz it was one of those profiles that didn’t have any pictures. [00:14:10] And then I was like, do you know what? I was actually going through something pretty horrific. I think it’s really important [00:14:15] that we don’t comment on the way people look.

Georgia Meacham: And don’t judge.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly whether they lost weight, put on [00:14:20] weight, whether their face looks different, like it’s not your place, and they’ll be like, oh, now I feel really bad. [00:14:25] Come on Payman, that is such a degree of lack of empathy. The trolls on Facebook, [00:14:30] the forums that that tear down other dentists. I’ve had dentists say to me that they [00:14:35] won’t go on Facebook because of the way that other dentists talk about each other. That is such a basic lack of human [00:14:40] empathy and respect, and that’s what I think. So I’m not having this debate with you.

Payman Langroudi: Of course that [00:14:45] exists. But I’m saying to say that people are people in healthcare. It’s rare that they have empathy. There’s [00:14:50] thousands of of dentists out there.

Rhona Eskander: I’m not saying everyone, but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Empathy with all their patients. [00:14:55]

Rhona Eskander: They’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Creative. It’s one of the one of the skills of being a good dentist. Is that right? [00:15:00]

Rhona Eskander: So because they don’t pick hence why so many dentists get so many complaints and [00:15:05] so many dentists struggle with selling treatment plans and so many they struggle with the soft [00:15:10] skills. You know that. You know that literally Prav has a course on marketing and how to be empathetic. [00:15:15] You know, I think and people focus so much on I [00:15:20] think, again, we’ve talked about this like the exterior. So for example, in dentistry, they will [00:15:25] focus on being so amazing academically, but not on the patient in front of them.

Georgia Meacham: You know, [00:15:30] empathy is part of personal skills isn’t it. Socialising. And that’s a huge part [00:15:35] of.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I don’t want to go off on a tangent because we’re talking about, you know, you see it gets [00:15:40] heated between us. If it gets heated, I’m feeling it. Um, but now what I [00:15:45] see, which is so incredible, is that you’re wearing your hearing aid with pride and with [00:15:50] confidence. Massive clap for that. So what was the turning point for you? Where [00:15:55] you were because you were hiding it? So what was the turning point?

Georgia Meacham: I mean, I [00:16:00] think being misunderstood, I think [00:16:05] that it got to a point where I was so fed up of being misunderstood.

Rhona Eskander: Were you?

Georgia Meacham: Oh, [00:16:10] this was only like a year and a half ago.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So you were hiding it for that long? [00:16:15]

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. So I hid it from. Because at school, I had to wear my hair up so I couldn’t hide [00:16:20] it. So that was. And just people accepted me. And then when I went to university [00:16:25] and I got the chance to wear my hair down, I was like, oh, I can [00:16:30] redefine myself. I don’t have to be that odd girl at school anymore. So [00:16:35] at university, I started wearing my hair down. And then the more I got to know people, [00:16:40] I was like, oh my gosh, I can’t just suddenly show them my hearing aids because they’ll be shocked [00:16:45] because obviously they’ve known me for so long. So it just became such [00:16:50] a big thing in my head.

Payman Langroudi: Even your closest friends.

Georgia Meacham: A few of my closest friends.

Rhona Eskander: How are you handling [00:16:55] dating?

Georgia Meacham: It was just so big in my head.

Rhona Eskander: And what about dating guys?

Georgia Meacham: Dating? I dated a guy for. [00:17:00] This. Was like my first relationship at university for four months. And [00:17:05] I remember even, like, if he went to hug me, I was worried that [00:17:10] his ear would touch my ear and he would be like, oh, what’s that?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Or sometimes they [00:17:15] make a whistling noise if you go too close to them. So I lived on edge [00:17:20] in this relationship, and even in bed, just as the lights went off, I would quickly take them off [00:17:25] and hide them under my pillow and just hope that he wouldn’t talk to me as we [00:17:30] were going to sleep, otherwise I wouldn’t hear. So it was a lot. And I just, you [00:17:35] know, everything that I do from now on is because I never want anyone to feel like that. [00:17:40] You know, it’s. Life is hard enough already as it is without having [00:17:45] to do these extra things, and not just not being able to show up as just you.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:17:50] what was the turning point like? Did something significant happen where you were like, fuck this, I’m not going to do this.

Georgia Meacham: I’m seeing a bit more representation [00:17:55] on TV and film.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, because there.

Payman Langroudi: Was that other deaf people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, there [00:18:00] was a girl also.

Georgia Meacham: Sorry, a huge thing to point out. Not just deaf people or seeing [00:18:05] hearing aids. It’s young people. Mhm. Because you [00:18:10] see you see loads of grandparents.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:18:15] Older people with hearing aids but you don’t necessarily see young [00:18:20] people. Mhm. And I didn’t have, I didn’t know one other person until like [00:18:25] two years ago that um was under the age of 30 and had hearing aids.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:18:30] now do you now looking into it, is that is the evidence that there are lots of people hiding? [00:18:35] Must be.

Georgia Meacham: Do you know what the. I’m so thankful. [00:18:40] Like when I think about it, it makes me shiver. I don’t know why I’m getting emotional. Probably I’m on my [00:18:45] period. Yeah. But, um, just like the.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I’m getting emotional. [00:18:50] I’m getting emotional. It’s okay. It’s not. Sorry. I knew I’d get like this.

Georgia Meacham: No, [00:18:55] it’s just because I had such a lovely message. Um, I think it was only the other week, and [00:19:00] it just made me realise. Oh, wow. This is why I’m doing it again, a girl.

Rhona Eskander: Oh. [00:19:05]

[TRANSITION]: Bless you. Sorry.

[TRANSITION]: That’s alright.

[TRANSITION]: I should have [00:19:10] warned you. That’s deeply emotional.

Georgia Meacham: Um. No. I had a younger girl message me. And do you know [00:19:15] what? I could read out the message.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Go for.

Rhona Eskander: It. Go for.

[TRANSITION]: It. You know.

Georgia Meacham: People actually take the time to [00:19:20] message and share their story. And how brave is, [00:19:25] is that this is strangers that are messaging me, and I just I think everyone’s [00:19:30] so brave. And I think that’s what really gets me because it’s so hard for, for some [00:19:35] people just to even write it. Writing. The fact that I’m [00:19:40] giving some people this little bit of confidence to share it, even if it’s just with me.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:19:45] now you think sharing, being vulnerable, sharing something about yourself that [00:19:50] you might think is a weakness?

Rhona Eskander: No, I get.

Payman Langroudi: Gets makes that [00:19:55] thing more acceptable to you? Is that.

Rhona Eskander: No. It’s just like I think, as George has said, like [00:20:00] shared experiences are really powerful. When I, when I did my 2024, um, [00:20:05] look back and I said, like, basically it’s been a bit it was a really tough year [00:20:10] for me. Like the amount of people.

Georgia Meacham: That was beautiful, by the way.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you. But I feel [00:20:15] like I’m always highlighting your thing. I’m like, yes, yes. I’m like, oh, she’s gonna think I’m crazy.

Rhona Eskander: I had a lot of people [00:20:20] message me saying, like, I just want you to know, like, it’s so refreshing because everybody [00:20:25] writes their highlight reel and how amazing their life is. And you actually were really honest and real and, like, [00:20:30] on the outside, like, you wouldn’t even think that you’re going through that stuff. So I just want to thank [00:20:35] you.

Georgia Meacham: Especially because you had such a great year as well that people probably [00:20:40] only see you and see, oh yeah, she’s the founder of the new dentist clinic, so they probably [00:20:45] don’t even think that you would even possibly go through these types of [00:20:50] things.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s that’s the thing like with the Vichy as well. Like people were like, he’s the richest, most famous DJ [00:20:55] of his time. Why do you have depression? Why do you have anxiety? Do [00:21:00] you know what I mean? It’s just classic.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think there’s a an element of oversharing, [00:21:05] like, is that a thing you worry about?

Georgia Meacham: I think [00:21:10] oversharing is I think it’s not oversharing. [00:21:15] It’s positive toxic.

Payman Langroudi: Toxicity.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:21:20] It’s being too positive.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Positive. Um. Toxic positivity. [00:21:25]

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. Toxic positivity.

Rhona Eskander: I can’t bear toxic positivity and explain it. Explain it.

Georgia Meacham: So I think some people that overshare. [00:21:30]

Rhona Eskander: So.

Georgia Meacham: Tend to.

Rhona Eskander: So toxic positivity is where people [00:21:35] are like, I don’t want to talk about bad things, and I don’t want to see bad images, and I don’t want to put any.

Georgia Meacham: Necessarily [00:21:40] that. But just being like, so.

Rhona Eskander: Motivated, just be like driven. It’s all in your [00:21:45] head. You’ve got to think positive. You’ve got to be abundant. And to be honest with you, I’m going to be completely [00:21:50] honest. I actually cut out quite a lot of people like that last year. And when I say cut out, it’s not the cut [00:21:55] out where I was like, you’re out of my life. I was like, do you know what?

Payman Langroudi: You just want to see less of it.

Rhona Eskander: I want to see less of them as well, [00:22:00] because what I felt that is that that my feelings weren’t being validated. And what I actually found was [00:22:05] they were unable to hold space for me. So what I mean by that is, is that my [00:22:10] discomfort made them too uncomfortable. So it was easier for them to be like babes. Just write down [00:22:15] affirmations. Life is great. Don’t put that down. And I’m like, I’m grieving something. I have [00:22:20] literally lost something. That’s what happened to me last year. And you’re telling me that I can’t be [00:22:25] upset and it’s all in my mind. And I manifested this like, no, please, toxic positivity [00:22:30] doesn’t work for me. It just doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: But then you know how people say cut out negative people around you [00:22:35] because they bring you down. Do you subscribe to that idea?

Rhona Eskander: Absolutely as well. I think that’s [00:22:40] I think I think there’s like there is a balance. What I like to see is, is that the human, the human. [00:22:45]

Georgia Meacham: Imperfect.

Rhona Eskander: Human experience is flawed. It is wonderfully beautiful. And [00:22:50] it is intrinsically complicated as well. There are highs and there are lows, [00:22:55] and life is not a constant. And what I like to do is, is I like to feel every emotion. [00:23:00] I like to feel happy. I like to feel sad. I like to cry. And I try to [00:23:05] celebrate. So I try now not to suppress anything. So people that think that it’s okay and [00:23:10] normal. Never to be sad or never to experience discomfort. You’re not [00:23:15] having the authentic human life experience. That’s how I feel.

Georgia Meacham: I think as well you can deal with more [00:23:20] things if you are able to cope with feeling or different emotions, because [00:23:25] then if you lose someone.

Rhona Eskander: You can process.

Georgia Meacham: It. You know how to get it out, you [00:23:30] know how to deal with it. Whereas people that don’t show all these different emotions. Yeah, they’ll [00:23:35] struggle even more.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah. Have you found the message?

Georgia Meacham: I found the message. Sorry it took me ages. [00:23:40] Um. Okay, so [00:23:45] this is by a younger girl saying hello. I just wanted to make. I just [00:23:50] wanted to let you know what a difference you’re making by opening up and sharing. You’re showing that it is [00:23:55] possible for young to be young, confident and strong whilst wearing visible hearing [00:24:00] aids, and it has really helped me to accept mine. I refused to wear them for a [00:24:05] long time and when I did, I kept my hair styled in a way where you couldn’t see them. See [00:24:10] them? I was told I needed a full in ear mould for one of my ears, and I genuinely [00:24:15] cried for months because I knew it would be much harder to hide. Since following [00:24:20] you, I have not only accepted it, but worn my hair back and spoken openly about my hearing [00:24:25] struggles, which practically has helped me so much. My friends now ask [00:24:30] me which would be would be best for me to sit on which side. Or if we’re in a noisy cafe [00:24:35] or restaurant, if they can. If I can hear them, I know I’ll be one in millions [00:24:40] of messages that you’ll receive each day. But just in case you do see it, I wanted you to [00:24:45] know the difference you’re making to everyday people and for life. For people like me. [00:24:50]

[TRANSITION]: I love that it’s beautiful.

Georgia Meacham: I stumbled over a few words, but.

Rhona Eskander: So when [00:24:55] you I mean obviously you’re having a huge impact on people around you now, but the representation was [00:25:00] your real turning point. And then you were like, I’m now going to wear this with pride. Yes. How did [00:25:05] it change the quality of your life?

Georgia Meacham: Hugely. As I said, especially my mental health, because [00:25:10] I’m just able to show up for things and actually enjoy my jobs [00:25:15] rather than worrying about all these other things. And and also [00:25:20] asking for the help is okay to ask for help. I was so ashamed [00:25:25] of if someone treated me differently or if, Um, [00:25:30] or if I had to actually ask someone to repeat something more than twice. [00:25:35] But now I’m like, it doesn’t matter.

Rhona Eskander: But even now, today, you were like, guys, can you come closer to [00:25:40] me?

Georgia Meacham: There we go. I wouldn’t have dared.

[TRANSITION]: Done that last year. Struggle. Like, you know, I. [00:25:45]

Georgia Meacham: Would have just been. And also, I think as well, I was just so used to struggling that I didn’t know [00:25:50] any other way. And then I found out I can. [00:25:55] There is this other way of life. And also, all the things I’ve achieved [00:26:00] have been without the full help that I’ve needed. Imagine all [00:26:05] the things I can do now with the right help. And I think that really [00:26:10] spurs me on as well.

Payman Langroudi: I think Rhona talks about sometimes for women, the 30s [00:26:15] are when they really sort of find themselves.

Georgia Meacham: And yeah, I think as well I just [00:26:20] turned 32. So when I kind of started to speak about it, [00:26:25] I was 31. So yeah, I think, I think that probably was a turning point. Coin. I was a bit more comfortable [00:26:30] in myself and feeling a bit more stronger. So then I felt that that was [00:26:35] the the right time.

Rhona Eskander: Well, I always say, and I think. Did you see the Demi Moore speech? [00:26:40] Okay, so I have to read it to you. Okay. The Demi Moore speech, because I think it’s so beautiful [00:26:45] and so amazing.

Georgia Meacham: Do you know what it is? It’s just so relatable.

Rhona Eskander: It’s just. Okay. [00:26:50] So obviously normal. There were so many things about this that I thought were incredible. [00:26:55] And she says, um, this [00:27:00] is something that I saw that I thought was so good, so beautiful. Demi Moore’s [00:27:05] speech about being told that she was just a popcorn actor is another symptom of Hollywood’s [00:27:10] women expire over 35 gaslighting. By relegating [00:27:15] beautiful women to roles that are solely about sex appeal. But there is nothing [00:27:20] sexier or more provocative than a woman realising her worth taking the reins and [00:27:25] turning the scars of her lived experience into a into a lightning bolt of sheer, unstoppable [00:27:30] radiance. Women over 40. Rise up. And I just really, really, really related [00:27:35] to that because I told you this before. Like, I do feel like the worth of women is [00:27:40] put so much on their youth and their fertility, and it’s like this sex appeal, but [00:27:45] there is nothing sexier than a confident woman that knows her worth. Like the amount [00:27:50] of women that I see, I don’t know, like he’s looking at that. I really do, but then.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:27:55] fully understand.

Rhona Eskander: You’re.

Payman Langroudi: Projecting. I brought it up [00:28:00] in the first instance. Yeah. So I think of that as the Princess Di thing.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, yes. [00:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: You said Princess Di when she died was much more attractive than the 19 year old, you know, [00:28:10] on the on the side with Charles when she got married. Right. Because of the confidence. [00:28:15] Yeah. I fully, fully get that.

Georgia Meacham: And also Prince Di, she was kind and she was [00:28:20] warm and.

Payman Langroudi: She was herself.

Georgia Meacham: She did show vulnerability. Yeah. And so it [00:28:25] made her more relatable. Yeah. And therefore she was more of [00:28:30] an inspiration because people felt connected to her 100%.

Payman Langroudi: The face you saw was [00:28:35] it was something around, you know, pretty privilege. Yeah. Insomuch as you’re, [00:28:40] you’re you’re sort of strong as a as a pretty girl, you’re [00:28:45] you get a lot of benefit from that sexual power. You get a lot of benefit from that from age [00:28:50] 19 to 39 or whatever, whatever number you want to put on it. Loads [00:28:55] of benefit. So yeah, as as you lose that benefit, it hurts, but [00:29:00] you’re getting loads of benefits. Some 19 year old girl can can really move things around because of how [00:29:05] pretty she is. She doesn’t have 19 year old guy can’t at all.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but I think it’s different, right. [00:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: Because I important to bear that in mind.

Rhona Eskander: No, because I think the fact is, is that that 19 year old woman that [00:29:15] looks the way she does, she doesn’t actually know what to do with that. And that’s the thing that you’re forgetting. [00:29:20] And she’s easily open. She’s open to manipulation. She’s open [00:29:25] to the to the Harvey Weinsteins and the Jeffrey Epstein’s of the world because she doesn’t know what to [00:29:30] do with that. Whereas I’m saying that if you, which I truly believe, like, women, still look amazing and [00:29:35] beautiful on that physical aspect in their 30s, they have a different kind of confidence because they are beautiful and they know what [00:29:40] to do with it, and they recognise that their worth isn’t just about the physical. And I think that [00:29:45] the danger comes for women that just put the importance when I and I know that you model [00:29:50] as well. Um, so I’d love to hear your thoughts. But when I was in my, when I was a teenager and up until [00:29:55] Leeds, I used to get scouted for modelling. And my mom.

Georgia Meacham: Of course you did.

Rhona Eskander: And my mom, well, a lot of doctors wouldn’t [00:30:00] agree. Lost my buccal fat and temporal whatever. Anyway, um, but my mum used [00:30:05] to be a model. She. I told you, she’s six foot one, green eyes, etc., and my mom was like, I really don’t want you to do it because I do [00:30:10] want you to focus on dentistry. And I think that for me, a really [00:30:15] important lesson was learned. Number one, I had awareness of how insecure I [00:30:20] was at the time, and I couldn’t handle criticism. I criticism. I couldn’t handle [00:30:25] the need to lose weight. But the other thing for me was like, I don’t want my worth to be around [00:30:30] the way that I looked. And I think the danger with modelling is, is that you’re literally your [00:30:35] face and your body becomes a declining, um, [00:30:40] asset. You know, it’s basically devalues as you get older because that’s what people, unless [00:30:45] you become an older model. But essentially I was like, you know what? If I become a dentist or a doctor, I know [00:30:50] that I can help people. And it’s not just about the way I look, it’s about the way I make people feel. And that was a really important [00:30:55] thing for me that I understood and knew. And I don’t know how you feel because I know that you do modelling as well.

Georgia Meacham: I [00:31:00] mean, there’s a lot from what you said about pretty privilege, because that’s [00:31:05] a huge topic. And I think, I think it’s okay to use [00:31:10] what you have, but in the right way. For example, I feel [00:31:15] my modelling career has obviously given me a platform, but I think it’s about I think a lot of people, [00:31:20] they use their privilege, Whatever it whether it’s money, whether [00:31:25] it’s pretty privilege, irresponsibly, responsibly. You know, a lot of people, [00:31:30] a lot of people are super wealthy or they’ve got this huge platform. [00:31:35] They’re an A-list celebrity. But what do they do? Do they do enough charity work? [00:31:40] Do they do enough.

Rhona Eskander: Talking to disagree with you for someone, for one aspect?

Georgia Meacham: Okay. And then [00:31:45] we’ll go back to the modelling.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Because one thing that it says you said responsibly and payments that irresponsibly [00:31:50] because I would agree like some people are using, they would say they’re empowered but they’re using [00:31:55] both happen. Yeah. But the thing is like something like OnlyFans, right. For example. So they’re using the body in the way that [00:32:00] they look and they say, well, who cares? Like I’m here now to exploit men. I’m [00:32:05] rich. I’m living in my penthouse in Battersea or whatever it is, because I’m [00:32:10] using the way that I look to get money. I don’t know if I fully agree, if I’m honest with [00:32:15] that, because I don’t know if that is using it the way you look for purpose.

Georgia Meacham: But I there’s, [00:32:20] you know, modelling I would say that’s using your what you have in a responsible way because [00:32:25] it’s a job. You earn money. You’re not harming anyone. Onlyfans. [00:32:30] Again, controversial. I would never do it because I don’t think [00:32:35] it’s always 100% responsible in a sense that other [00:32:40] people can be affected by it. Um, it can do damage. [00:32:45] Um, it can do damage to society and the younger generation. [00:32:50] Whereas I think if you’re doing something that’s not harming anyone, that’s okay. [00:32:55]

Rhona Eskander: It’s fine. Yeah, I get it, I get it. I think.

[TRANSITION]: A bit.

Payman Langroudi: Judgemental of both of you though, lol. [00:33:00] Insomuch as you know why. Why shouldn’t a woman be a sex worker of [00:33:05] any sort?

Rhona Eskander: I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be a sex worker.

Payman Langroudi: Whether it’s OnlyFans.

Georgia Meacham: Do whatever you want to do, [00:33:10] but as long as it’s not harming your family, as long as it’s not.

Rhona Eskander: Harming your mental health.

Georgia Meacham: Or harming your [00:33:15] mental health. And if you’re a sex worker but you’re the if you’re a sex worker [00:33:20] and the person that you’re, um, one of your clients, for example, [00:33:25] is married. You’re affecting another family and situations like that. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but if you work in a, if you’re a chef and you’re one of your clients is overweight, you know what [00:33:35] I mean? It’s not, it’s not, it’s not it’s not down to that person’s. It’s not their lookout.

Rhona Eskander: I think we’re getting into [00:33:40] such a big moral dilemma here.

Payman Langroudi: My point my point is, I wouldn’t have thought two people like you would come down so [00:33:45] judgemental on OnlyFans because.

Rhona Eskander: No, no, no, I’m not judgemental. Do what you want. I’m sure there’s [00:33:50] going to be a Dental niche. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if there’s like a dentist girl that suddenly does like dental porn [00:33:55] and there’s people that are into it? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, can you imagine there are people that [00:34:00] pay for that. Can you imagine?

Georgia Meacham: It’s like it’s like the the the new girl, Bonnie Blue. I think [00:34:05] it’s awful how much media attention she’s getting.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but that was the thing.

Georgia Meacham: Because doing [00:34:10] so much damage.

Rhona Eskander: I mean.

Georgia Meacham: It’s it’s actually horrific.

Rhona Eskander: There is there’s also a difference between Bonnie [00:34:15] Blue and Lily Phillips because people say that, like when people look at Lily Phillips, because Lily Phillips obviously is trying to break [00:34:20] a world record. She slept with 100 guys in one day and now she wants to do 1000.

Georgia Meacham: I almost don’t want to talk about it because they’ve [00:34:25] had so much attention.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I know. I know it’s true, but I’m going to I’m going to just make a point here that they then [00:34:30] someone did a documentary and then, oh, guys, who’s the woman that used to be on the Daily Wire? Payman. [00:34:35] You know, Candace Owens. Candace Owens also like, went on like an interview and basically [00:34:40] said to, like, I don’t think you’re happy. I think that basically she’s like, why are you doing it? And she was like, I’m [00:34:45] not doing it for the money. And she was like, but why are you doing? She’s like, but it’s really nice to wake up and be able to like, buy a cup of [00:34:50] coffee and not think about it. So you’re doing it for the money like, no, no, no, I’m not. And she was like, because, like, I have enough money now. She’s like, [00:34:55] so why are you doing. You’re doing it for the infamy. And the thing is then I think I’m like.

Payman Langroudi: What’s wrong [00:35:00] with.

Rhona Eskander: That? That’s fine, that’s fine. But also when it comes down to it, like when you question further [00:35:05] and further and she she ended up like bursting into tears at the end of the documentary. Arguably [00:35:10] people were like, well, she just exhausted because she slept with 100 guys one after another, or if [00:35:15] she actually emotionally broken. And I think that begs the question because she also admitted that [00:35:20] when you go on those platforms, you’re playing a role. You’re an actress in a way. The [00:35:25] thing is about Bonnie Blue. I think the problem was, is that people thought, because she was proudly saying, [00:35:30] women are lazy if they don’t have sex with their husband and they deserve to be cheated [00:35:35] on.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just the social media game, right? I mean, there’s a woman, there’s a woman sitting, [00:35:40] but there’s a woman sitting in Morgan Stanley, right?

Georgia Meacham: But that’s not that doesn’t make it okay, even if.

Rhona Eskander: It’s.

Georgia Meacham: Okay. [00:35:45] Because the effect that it’s having on the younger generation, like imagine [00:35:50] your your son like thinking that that’s okay. And watching that video and learning [00:35:55] from that.

Rhona Eskander: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: That generation are so savvy to it. You guys are now old. That’s what it is. [00:36:00] That’s what it is. That’s what it is. That generation is so savage.

Georgia Meacham: Like, oh [00:36:05] my God.

Payman Langroudi: Back to.

Georgia Meacham: Modelling. I always think about like my children and.

Payman Langroudi: They’re [00:36:10] so savvy to it. They’re so digitally native. They get all of this stuff, you know like I know. [00:36:15]

Georgia Meacham: But we can still make some Make some changes.

Rhona Eskander: But I don’t want to give them any more airtime. That’s been concluded. [00:36:20] We’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Modelling. Back to.

Rhona Eskander: Modelling.

Georgia Meacham: We were talking about the modelling. What was your what was your point?

Rhona Eskander: So [00:36:25] my point was, is that I never wanted to.

Georgia Meacham: Because you didn’t want to be judged by.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:36:30] it’s not even that, but also I recognising that it was a depreciating asset. Because if we’re going to [00:36:35] measure beauty by youth, naturally, it’s very rare that you see people go into modelling like later [00:36:40] on in life, like sustain a career from when they were in their heyday, 17 up until 60 [00:36:45] or whatever.

Georgia Meacham: Me um, my aim was never to be a model. I was very academic at school, [00:36:50] went to a good university, studied English and that was never the [00:36:55] aim, but fell into it. And I thought, do you know what this is going to add? Life experience? Yeah, [00:37:00] to me and probably make me a better person. And I’m going to use this opportunity. [00:37:05]

Payman Langroudi: Were you?

Georgia Meacham: Uh, I got scouted when I was 18. [00:37:10] Yeah. University time. So I came out of university and I was like, I’ll just give it a [00:37:15] go for a few years. A few years became eight years later nine.

Rhona Eskander: Did you enjoy it? Overall.

Georgia Meacham: 100%. [00:37:20] I got to work with some of my close friends every day. I got to travel [00:37:25] and when I mean travel, I went to places like Iceland. Um, can’t [00:37:30] think of the.

Rhona Eskander: Catwalk or.

Georgia Meacham: Commercial.

Rhona Eskander: Were you catwalk or commercial?

Georgia Meacham: Both. Okay, I’ve [00:37:35] got a bit of a baby face, but obviously I’m six foot as well.

Payman Langroudi: And did you handle the rejection of castings. [00:37:40]

Rhona Eskander: And all of that? Like did.

Payman Langroudi: You. Because I can’t.

Rhona Eskander: Imagine.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t imagine you being very good at that.

Rhona Eskander: I was terrible.

Georgia Meacham: Well. [00:37:45]

Rhona Eskander: You’ve seen ugly all the time.

Georgia Meacham: Go on. You’ve just seen how sensitive I am. Yeah. [00:37:50] I cry like a baby. So for me, I think my, [00:37:55] my mum was like, are you going to be able to handle the rejection side of things because you take everything deeply [00:38:00] and you feel deeply, but I think it’s it’s the way [00:38:05] you respond to rejection. I respond to rejection now as it [00:38:10] was an opportunity for more growth. It wasn’t right for me. I think it’s just about the way Also, [00:38:15] you can learn that, you can learn how to respond to rejection. [00:38:20] So I think anyone can learn it, even if at the beginning you say, oh, I couldn’t go into that job [00:38:25] because I can’t handle rejection well, you can learn how to handle.

Payman Langroudi: I found interesting on this.

Georgia Meacham: Subject, isn’t. [00:38:30]

Payman Langroudi: It? Of course it’s a muscle in itself.

Georgia Meacham: It’s a muscle. There we go.

Payman Langroudi: But what I found interesting about this question that you’re saying [00:38:35] is that models then self-select for people who are interested in them, not for their looks, [00:38:40] you know.

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean? I understand that.

Payman Langroudi: Question. If you’ve got a model, you’re talking to a model about something [00:38:45] that isn’t to do with her looks. She’s much more interested in that conversation than all [00:38:50] the conversations about the way she looks. Yeah. So they end up they end up selecting themselves for those [00:38:55] conversations, finding those people more interesting. I might find models interesting because they’re pretty. Yeah, [00:39:00] they find people who are not interested in looks interesting. You know, it’s [00:39:05] like the ones I’ve spoken to that generally. That’s what ends up happening to them.

Georgia Meacham: But sorry, [00:39:10] Rayna, back to your the second point that you that you made and leading [00:39:15] off your point, um, that for me, I was only ever going. To use [00:39:20] modelling to do what I wanted to do, which was.

Payman Langroudi: Acting.

Georgia Meacham: To [00:39:25] act or to use my voice in the right way. And so for me, modelling [00:39:30] has helped me with that. Um, so it’s a blessing. And I’ve always [00:39:35] made sure that it hasn’t defined me.

Rhona Eskander: And did did they know about the hearing [00:39:40] aid?

Georgia Meacham: No.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that in the fashion industry [00:39:45] that they would discriminate? What did you see? Any models with disabilities? [00:39:50]

Georgia Meacham: No. Um, you know, when I started, which was 9 or 10 years ago, the [00:39:55] beauty standard was ridiculous. Shocking, wasn’t it? You know, you had to be size [00:40:00] six or size eight and you had to be six foot, whereas [00:40:05] now that’s like too tall. But, um, so I think I could, I could [00:40:10] just about fit in that little, little box without showing my hearing aids. Um, [00:40:15] so I just feel like I felt enormous pressure, and I [00:40:20] just felt this huge tension, and I felt like I couldn’t compromise [00:40:25] by showing them because the box was so small.

Payman Langroudi: Have you felt have [00:40:30] you found you’ve now got the opposite happening? Are you getting jobs because of the diversity? Diversity [00:40:35] inclusion kind of agenda?

Georgia Meacham: Actually interesting you ask I actually just signed [00:40:40] with an exclusive agency. Who who you know, [00:40:45] their, their main thing is representing people with disabilities.

Rhona Eskander: I love [00:40:50] that.

Georgia Meacham: And for me, at first I wasn’t sure because I feel [00:40:55] like you can make a bigger impact, um, in, in a [00:41:00] normal agency by being.

Rhona Eskander: The only one. Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Because if you’re just [00:41:05] part of an agency that’s just focuses on disabled talent, [00:41:10] you’re kind of expanding the bridge, expanding that gap more [00:41:15] and more. Because you’re you’re compartmentalising yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting way of looking at it.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:41:20] So I was like, no, I want to be the only one in a, in a normal mainstream modelling agency [00:41:25] so I can make more of a difference. But now I’m just going to be part [00:41:30] of it all to, to spread myself more and to, you know, [00:41:35] I’ve got this, this little goal of the year. And I’m just going [00:41:40] to put it out there just in case it happens of I only got my ears pierced about [00:41:45] a year and a half ago, two years ago, because I didn’t want to draw any [00:41:50] attention to my ears. And, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s.

Georgia Meacham: Something.

Payman Langroudi: That these sort of details, [00:41:55] you know, you never think about.

Georgia Meacham: There we go. And, you know, I remember looking at all these other girls and my friends, [00:42:00] they’d always wear these lovely earrings. And I thought, oh, that’s a shame. I’ll never I [00:42:05] just accepted oh, I’ll never I’ll never be able to have earrings [00:42:10] or, you know, have that kind of glamorous element.

Rhona Eskander: But now people [00:42:15] are even decorating their hearing aids.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah, but now I make sure I wear the biggest [00:42:20] earrings and the boldest earrings. Yeah. To kind of make up for that lost time. And I’d [00:42:25] love to get a jewellery campaign where my hearing aid is visible, [00:42:30] because I’ve never seen that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I’d love that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you played a deaf person? [00:42:35] Pardon? Have you ever played a deaf person?

Georgia Meacham: No. Because obviously [00:42:40] I wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: So recent that you’ve come out so.

Georgia Meacham: Recently that I’ve kind of come [00:42:45] out. There’s a really interesting what you just asked. You said, have [00:42:50] I ever played a deaf person? I think something that needs [00:42:55] to be worked on in the TV [00:43:00] and film industry is that so many stories when it comes to [00:43:05] a disabled person, the story is based around their Their disability. And [00:43:10] I think we need to start changing that narrative. That their disability is just it’s just [00:43:15] there. So it’s more normal. And the storyline is about their love life [00:43:20] or.

Rhona Eskander: About.

Georgia Meacham: Anything else.

Payman Langroudi: The same with with black actors or. [00:43:25]

Rhona Eskander: But we know. But we know that as well. I mean, I’ve talked about.

Georgia Meacham: This.

Rhona Eskander: Being being Middle-Eastern. It’s always everything. [00:43:30] We’re always terrorists. Do you know what I mean? Like always, you know, that’s what I mean.

Georgia Meacham: The more changes we do [00:43:35] for for one group of people, it helps everyone else. It’s a ripple [00:43:40] effect.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s also like that.

Georgia Meacham: We’re all bloody different, aren’t we?

Rhona Eskander: That’s different. That’s where also like, things like [00:43:45] Disney need to take massive responsibility and they thank God Disney changed the story of, [00:43:50] um, the Disney princess being saved by the prince and the Disney princess looking a certain way. And then it [00:43:55] was like, do you know what? Mona’s going to own her own island and she ain’t going to have a boyfriend and she ain’t going to be [00:44:00] saved. And it’s like, that’s changing now, you know, like the storylines are changing because [00:44:05] what impacted me as a child, which I’m sure is with you, like, I literally believe Disney and I got into university [00:44:10] and I was like, where’s the prince? Literally, you know, like he’s going to come save me on the horse, I get picked, [00:44:15] I get chosen, you know, because I’m going to be so beautiful like the Disney narrative. So I think that’s really [00:44:20] important when I think about it. I’m like, I can’t think of a single Disney film or Pixar where you have somebody with a disability [00:44:25] is there. The disability is literally braces. Like, I remember that from Finding Nemo, you know? I mean. [00:44:30]

Georgia Meacham: Do you remember that that girl, she her Finding.

Rhona Eskander: Nemo was the braces headgear. [00:44:35] That was her disability. Oh my.

Georgia Meacham: Gosh. Wow. Like, that’s so different.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So I think that that’s really [00:44:40] important.

Georgia Meacham: So yeah, times are changing. Slowly, slowly.

Rhona Eskander: Um, the other thing that I want to know [00:44:45] is, um, what role do you think that interpreters and technology [00:44:50] play in creating a better mental health outcomes for the deaf community?

Georgia Meacham: Um, [00:44:55] a huge part because there’s we don’t have enough interpreters, [00:45:00] sign language interpreters. And if you think about if we’re having a therapy session and [00:45:05] Myself or someone else has to have a sign language interpreter. [00:45:10] Um, sorry if there isn’t a sign language interpreter [00:45:15] available. That means that either a family friend or a [00:45:20] family, a family friend, a friend, or a family member has to be there in [00:45:25] order to help with the communication barrier. And that means that [00:45:30] that person that’s attending therapy may not be able to talk about certain topics because they’ve [00:45:35] got that family member there or that friend member. Um, and I can sort of relate [00:45:40] in the same way that when I, whenever I’ve been a hospital, which [00:45:45] has been a lot um, I’ve always had my mum there because sometimes [00:45:50] I don’t always hear things the first time round. And especially with medical terminology, [00:45:55] it’s really, really.

Payman Langroudi: Hard enough when you can hear.

Georgia Meacham: Exactly. And it’s really important that you’re [00:46:00] hearing everything because it’s important advice that’s being given. So I’ve [00:46:05] always had someone else there, my mum and and sometimes when I’ve had, say, operations and certain [00:46:10] things like that, I have to I’ve had my hearing aids taken out. Um, [00:46:15] so it’s even more important that I’ve always had a person there. So, um, yeah, [00:46:20] that’s why I’m really family is a huge.

Payman Langroudi: If you haven’t got them in. Do you hear nothing?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:46:25]

Georgia Meacham: No. So I’m moderately to severe, severely deaf in both ears. So [00:46:30] I do have a bit of hearing. Hearing aids just amplify sounds. Um, [00:46:35] I think there’s a misconception that as soon as I put my hearing aids in, I can hear, like, [00:46:40] you guys. Yeah, that’s not the case. They just amplify, um, I [00:46:45] struggle, say, if I’m in a cinema because it’s technology to [00:46:50] technology, sometimes you get weird sounds. Um, [00:46:55] and that’s why when we came in this room today, I could hear. Yeah, something [00:47:00] different to you guys. Yeah. So, yeah, there’s lots of Misconceptions, I think. [00:47:05] Um, and yeah, so I do hear a bit, but I have to be close to you. I have to make sure I can [00:47:10] see your lips if it’s a dark room or late at night. I really struggle, like on holidays with [00:47:15] friends, when it starts to get late at night and everyone’s, like, chatting by the pool, I feel like I [00:47:20] don’t really get chats as much.

Rhona Eskander: What about nightclubs? Hook-ups [00:47:25] like no, no. Is it no nightclubs? Like dance clubs? Yeah. Hook-ups no, no [00:47:30] I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t hear nightclubs.

Rhona Eskander: No. So so like when there’s really loud music, [00:47:35] how is it for you?

Georgia Meacham: Hard. Hard?

Rhona Eskander: Do you actually not enjoy it? Do you know what I mean? [00:47:40] Like, you know, if there’s like a big day.

Georgia Meacham: Dj, sometimes if something’s too loud, I take my hearing [00:47:45] aids out. So it’s. Yeah, because also, you’ve got to remember, I’m not used to hearing loud sounds [00:47:50] all the time so I can get, like, a sensory overload. Um, so it’s really important that I have [00:47:55] those quiet moments. So in a nightclub, if I have my hearing aids in for the full time, I [00:48:00] would, I would just be knocked out. So even at the cinema, like sometimes [00:48:05] I have to lower the volume on my hearing aid because it’s just too loud to me because I’m not used to it. So. [00:48:10]

Rhona Eskander: So with regards to dating, obviously you’ve had relationships hook-ups [00:48:15] that we can get onto that. Have you had any discrimination? Like [00:48:20] do you feel like there have been. And obviously if those are those people, they’re not even worth [00:48:25] your time. But have you had any experience of that or not has been like [00:48:30] overwhelmingly positive, or has there been times where, like someone finds out or they see and they’re like, you feel [00:48:35] like them sort of pull back?

Georgia Meacham: Surprisingly, it’s been really positive.

Rhona Eskander: Good. [00:48:40] That’s amazing.

Georgia Meacham: I remember my second partner. Lovely. [00:48:45] Lovely guy. Um, I kind of. I [00:48:50] think we were on the third week of dating, and I was thinking, why? I need to tell him [00:48:55] soon. Soon. And just in case he thinks I’m ignoring him or, you know, we’re in a difficult situation. [00:49:00] And so I so I really, you know, I motivated myself. [00:49:05] I was like, okay, is this the right time to do it? Is this anyway? We were in the car and [00:49:10] I was like, okay, this is the moment to tell him. And I told him and it was [00:49:15] such a huge moment and I was thinking, oh my God, what’s he going to reply? How’s he going to reply? Is he going to have a [00:49:20] big reaction to this? And he turned around and he said, oh, I already [00:49:25] knew.

Rhona Eskander: Mhm.

Georgia Meacham: I saw it. Um, one morning you, you [00:49:30] just moved your hand and I saw it and. Yeah. So I already knew, I [00:49:35] couldn’t believe.

Rhona Eskander: It. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: He was so chilled about [00:49:40] it and um.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. So I think I’ve been really lucky in that sense. Not lucky. [00:49:45] Um, yeah. It’s just. Yeah. No one’s had a big reaction about [00:49:50] it again. It’s. It was always me. It was just always a big thing for me.

Payman Langroudi: Something. [00:49:55] Something you said on Shivani’s podcast sort of struck me. It was [00:50:00] or something. She said something. The question around, you know, who’s who’s got permission [00:50:05] to ask questions like this? I mean, I don’t know. I mean, in this [00:50:10] room, I’ve had people and asked them questions and then maybe later on thought maybe I shouldn’t have [00:50:15] even asked that question. Is that is that is that a thing for you?

Georgia Meacham: I think it’s [00:50:20] the more questions you ask whether it’s, you know, how can we help or [00:50:25] those kind of questions.

Payman Langroudi: I think now in this room, of course, in this room, of [00:50:30] course, you’d say that would be good for you to get this message out, right? Yes. But in [00:50:35] in life, day to day life, when someone finds out or if you know, is there [00:50:40] an.

Georgia Meacham: You know what? I really encourage people to ask whatever questions they want or they [00:50:45] think because also some questions, no question is [00:50:50] going to be wrong. And and I will. I think we should encourage [00:50:55] people for being brave enough to even ask a question about [00:51:00] someone’s struggle or.

Rhona Eskander: The thing is, it’s interesting that you say that. So one of my best [00:51:05] friends, she’s a psychotherapist and they were having a, um, [00:51:10] they have like group therapy sessions as part of their training because she’s training to do it. [00:51:15] And one of the, um, other candidates was like talking about pronouns [00:51:20] because it’s really important for them to be addressed by they. Yeah. And one [00:51:25] of the other therapists in the group was like, oh, but, you know, like, I’m just really curious to know [00:51:30] about the whole pronoun argument. And the other person was like, not offended, [00:51:35] but they were like, it’s not my job to educate you. There is enough information on the internet about why [00:51:40] pronouns are important.

Payman Langroudi: Why are they important to you?

Rhona Eskander: And and.

Payman Langroudi: It’s.

Rhona Eskander: A different question. No, because [00:51:45] I think I think that person was like, what’s the history of it? Like how did it come about? Like asking a lot of questions. [00:51:50] Okay. But the person that wanted to be.

Georgia Meacham: Addressed really positive because they’re interested [00:51:55] and.

[TRANSITION]: They.

Rhona Eskander: Want to know the way the person because the person was like, you’re being lazy because you’re not doing [00:52:00] the work to actually, like, research it. Like you’re almost being like, ignorant. Do you know [00:52:05] what I mean? Whereas there is enough now out there for you to just go up and Google it or like, [00:52:10] watch YouTube on it or something like that. So I do think people’s views are different.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the nuance [00:52:15] though. I mean, if she just didn’t like her, maybe that’s the way she would say it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think like I think it really is [00:52:20] deeply individual. Like, I once had a person that I knew and I genuinely was asking, [00:52:25] um, a question. Um, they were of Islamic faith. And I was asking a question [00:52:30] because there was another influencer of Islamic faith, faith that was like presenting [00:52:35] toxic masculinity and talking about the religion, like as a whole. And [00:52:40] I asked that person, but I think I had offended her, and I didn’t mean to, but I actually wanted to [00:52:45] ask her. I was like, this guy says this like, what would be your response to it? And she was like, that’s [00:52:50] such a minority. And I was like, oh, because to me it looks like the majority, because of the amount of engagement he’s [00:52:55] getting on his post. And I really, genuinely wanted to be educated. I wasn’t doing it to offend, but [00:53:00] that person took offence. And then I, like you, was like, oh God, maybe I shouldn’t have asked that. Do you see? I mean, I just quietly do my own research, [00:53:05] you know?

Georgia Meacham: But then I think it’s better to ask and get a response of do [00:53:10] your own research. You shouldn’t ask that or do your own research. Because the more we stop [00:53:15] people from asking certain questions, the more they’re going to stop asking [00:53:20] certain questions about other topics.

Payman Langroudi: And yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I want [00:53:25] to ask you.

Georgia Meacham: Restricts.

Rhona Eskander: Can you share.

[TRANSITION]: Why are you doing that.

Rhona Eskander: Because I’m like looking [00:53:30] and I’m like genuinely interested in this. Can you share a moment when you felt truly heard [00:53:35] and understood in the metaphorical sense, despite the challenges that you faced? [00:53:40]

Georgia Meacham: I think I’m just going to keep it simple, not too [00:53:45] deep. Um, but I think just, you know, as I said, those those messages [00:53:50] that I’ve received from everyday people, people from all walks of life, [00:53:55] Um. Um. That keeps me. Sorry. What was your question [00:54:00] again?

Rhona Eskander: So can you share a moment when you felt truly heard and understood despite [00:54:05] challenges?

Georgia Meacham: I think it’s when I’ve just told, when [00:54:10] I started to tell people. Oh, by the way, I’ve [00:54:15] known you for this long. But did you know that I wear two hearing aids and then just have no [00:54:20] sort of reaction? I think by by them not having a reaction, [00:54:25] I felt really seen. Yeah. Which is kind of.

Rhona Eskander: Like the guy [00:54:30] you were dating, and he was like, I already knew.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Like, I didn’t even have to bring it up because, like, who cares kind of thing.

Georgia Meacham: Yeah. [00:54:35] And, um, I think sometimes by not having [00:54:40] to have certain conversations with people, um, because [00:54:45] they already know you feel more seen in that way because you’re sometimes [00:54:50] you feel like you’re constantly having to speak up for yourself, advocate for yourself. So sometimes when you don’t have [00:54:55] to do it, you feel the most seen.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Which is a bit of a weird way to think about it. [00:55:00]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No, I, I understand, that’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Are you driven by you wish [00:55:05] there was someone like you when you were younger?

Georgia Meacham: 100%. I have a [00:55:10] a picture of myself as a younger girl on my mirror. Wow. And I always [00:55:15] think, wow, it would. It would have changed my life. And there’s another thing [00:55:20] that if I had learned sign language at a young age, um, [00:55:25] it would have definitely helped me accept my identity more.

Rhona Eskander: Why did you choose not [00:55:30] to?

Georgia Meacham: Um, because I only had the kind of opportunity when I was young [00:55:35] and my parents thought, let’s teach Georgia how to speak first and see how she gets on. [00:55:40] And then I actually just never had the other another opportunity to.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:55:45]

Georgia Meacham: Which is a bit crazy. Um, and. Yeah, if, if I, if [00:55:50] I could sign, I would have then been able to communicate with other deaf children, [00:55:55] and I would have just felt like I belonged somewhere. I think as well, as [00:56:00] you said earlier, I speak so well. I cope so well that [00:56:05] I felt I wasn’t deaf enough and [00:56:10] I wasn’t hearing enough. So I think the fact that even [00:56:15] though I was coping so well, I was in the middle of [00:56:20] both of these worlds, so I felt more isolated.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:56:25] know it sounds really weird, and I’m going to be a little bit controversial here. Like, obviously you’re [00:56:30] ridiculously beautiful. You’re six foot, you’re slim, you’re blonde, [00:56:35] your blue eyed, your stunning confident. Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Can you, can you marry.

Rhona Eskander: Me? I [00:56:40] propose, I propose. But do you get some people that are deaf [00:56:45] and resentful? So what I mean is they consider that you might have a degree of pretty privilege [00:56:50] where they’re like, well, it’s all good for her. For her. She might be deaf, but she’s actually, like, white and beautiful [00:56:55] and tall. Do you know what I mean? And then they’re like, she doesn’t really get it. Do you ever get that?

Georgia Meacham: There’s [00:57:00] always. There’s always going to be those people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: And, um, [00:57:05] I will continue to do what I do because.

Rhona Eskander: So you do get some of that because [00:57:10] I know I do.

Georgia Meacham: You know what I would say? It’s like 1% of people, which again, [00:57:15] maybe is surprising. Um, but it [00:57:20] nor that 1%.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: Because as I said, even if I just help [00:57:25] two people in my lifetime, I’ve done enough. Yeah. So and I think as well [00:57:30] it’s about showing up and just being just by being here today [00:57:35] and showing my hearing aids. I guess to a certain extent that already [00:57:40] is helping so many people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah for sure.

Georgia Meacham: So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. [00:57:45] And I want to know, I want to know for [00:57:50] listeners who may not be deaf but want to support family, friends or colleagues [00:57:55] in the community. What’s the best way to show empathy and understanding? You said already. Like ask questions [00:58:00] so we know that. Is there anything else?

Georgia Meacham: Yes. So make sure you speak [00:58:05] clearly.

Rhona Eskander: And loudly.

Georgia Meacham: And loudly, but not too loudly, because that just [00:58:10] sometimes comes across as passive aggressive. Maybe would make someone [00:58:15] like myself feel a bit scared. Yeah. By the way, you’re talking [00:58:20] to me. So yeah. Speak loudly. Clearly. Don’t cover your lips. Okay, [00:58:25] so I know when people talk, sometimes they use just make sure your lips are on [00:58:30] show and that the environment that you’re in, it’s slightly lit, like today is perfect. I can see you [00:58:35] both. Um, and if there’s background noise, just try and accommodate that person. [00:58:40] You know, it’s such a simple question. Where would you like to sit? Do you need if [00:58:45] someone’s deaf in one ear? Oh, do you want me to sit that side so it’s easier or this side. It. So [00:58:50] it’s very, very simple. But it’s just things that I don’t think we think of enough.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:58:55] feel like we’ve been a bit guilty of the sort of situation about just talking about [00:59:00] your deafness. You know, we’ve done that during this part. We’ve talked [00:59:05] about other things.

Rhona Eskander: But the thing is, I know, but the thing is, is I came with that intention only in [00:59:10] the sense that I feel that I obviously know.

Georgia Meacham: Why do you feel guilty [00:59:15] about it?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Why do you feel guilty?

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, because of what you said. You know, because almost. [00:59:20]

Rhona Eskander: I’m sorry. Can I just interject there? I don’t know, I might be wrong, but I think almost the fact that we are having [00:59:25] a conversation about it, a normal conversation, is exactly the purpose of why [00:59:30] we are having this. Because, as Georgia said, you know, people might feel like they want to shy away [00:59:35] from it or they want to they don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to understand it.

Georgia Meacham: And also it’s [00:59:40] it’s okay to not know, like things or not, I, [00:59:45] I came across a completely mute person. So someone that doesn’t speak at [00:59:50] all. And obviously that’s someone that’s part of my community. And I panicked [00:59:55] because I didn’t know how to communicate with them. So I think the more we just have conversations [01:00:00] and you ask people and. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think, [01:00:05] you know, I think that this is.

Georgia Meacham: A great I think you’re right in a sense that, you know, there [01:00:10] becomes this thing where you don’t want to be like, I don’t want my deafness to define me [01:00:15] exactly. But also it’s a huge part of me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, absolutely.

Georgia Meacham: And it’s something that [01:00:20] I never wanted to define me for so long that now I’m like, it’s new.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:00:25]

Georgia Meacham: Gosh.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Georgia Meacham: It’s about bloody time. [01:00:30]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No. I’m so proud of you. And one thing that I [01:00:35] do want to ask you is, is that if you could leave our listeners with one powerful message about mental [01:00:40] health, what would it be?

Georgia Meacham: So there’s a quote that I love. [01:00:45] Um, and it can be taken in so many different ways, which I think is why [01:00:50] it’s so beautiful. The more you glow, the more others glow back.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. [01:00:55]

Georgia Meacham: And I think it’s whether you’re being vulnerable. So if I’m [01:01:00] vulnerable, it will encourage you to be vulnerable too. Um, and it’s, [01:01:05] it’s about inviting everyone to shine in their own [01:01:10] unique way.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Georgia Meacham: And it’s a ripple effect, isn’t it? Yeah. So the kinder you are to [01:01:15] someone, they’re more likely to be kind back. Um, yeah. [01:01:20]

Rhona Eskander: I love that. And that’s why when I met you, it was love at first sight. There we go. [01:01:25] I can get on my knee like positive, positive. Just beautiful [01:01:30] energy. And you’re such an amazing advocate and amazing woman.

Georgia Meacham: It means a lot.

Rhona Eskander: And I’m so grateful [01:01:35] you could be here today.

Payman Langroudi: Susana. Huh?

Rhona Eskander: Yes, but, Georgia, you didn’t come to [01:01:40] the party of the century. Tell him how he missed out.

Georgia Meacham: Supported.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And, um, that’s when I [01:01:45] saw Georgia. And obviously, like, being such a powerhouse and such a beautiful woman. You know, everyone was like, who’s that [01:01:50] tall, leggy blonde?

Georgia Meacham: Well, I was more like, where’s this Queen Rhona.

Rhona Eskander: That.

Georgia Meacham: Everyone’s talking [01:01:55] about?

Rhona Eskander: So, um, and then we had a night out together in London with the girl that organised my party [01:02:00] and so on, and we just got on really well and just really connected, I think, like Soft Souls [01:02:05] connect. And that was star sign. Are you.

Georgia Meacham: Sagittarius?

Rhona Eskander: Oh, yeah. You said that. But yeah, I’m a Pisces, so I’m a [01:02:10] typical what star sign are you Taurus? Oh, that explains everything. Is it.

Georgia Meacham: March? [01:02:15]

Payman Langroudi: No.

Rhona Eskander: I’m March. Oh, my God, I really don’t like Tauruses. It’s really sad for me. [01:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: I’m more on the Knightsbridge end of Taurus.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, I love that. Okay, I love [01:02:25] that.

Rhona Eskander: Um, okay. Well, thank you, everyone for listening. Uh, Georgia, what is your Instagram [01:02:30] so people can look it up, please.

Georgia Meacham: Just simple Georgia Meecham. [01:02:35]

Rhona Eskander: So please have a look. She’s amazingly inspirational and aspirational, as I said. And please don’t forget to [01:02:40] like and subscribe to the YouTube channel. Bye everyone!

In this deeply moving episode, Sharon Walsh shares her journey from being a successful private practice owner to experiencing a devastating personal and professional crisis that led to practice loss, divorce, alcoholism, and a seven-year GDC case. 

With remarkable candour, she discusses her path to recovery, spiritual awakening, and finding meaning beyond material success. 

Her story is one of resilience, acceptance, and the profound understanding that sometimes we must be completely broken to discover our true selves.

 

In This Episode

00:01:05 – Career beginnings and building a private practice

00:03:40 – Practice dynamics and associate challenges

00:07:05 – Passion for dentistry and professional development

00:12:50 – The catalyst for breakdown

00:15:00 – Mental health crisis and practice loss

00:20:15 – Descent into alcoholism

00:24:25 – Marriage breakdown and personal struggles

00:47:50 – Homelessness and hitting rock bottom

00:49:20 – Recovery and spiritual awakening

00:56:35 – Blackbox thinking

01:00:50 – The loneliness of dentistry

01:06:10 – Fantasy dinner party guests

01:13:00 – Last days and legacy

 

About Sharon Walsh

Sharon Walsh is a dentist who built a successful private practice near Rochdale after transforming it from “a shed” into a beautiful, patient-focused space. 

A passionate clinician with expertise in restorative dentistry and prosthodontics, she worked alongside some of UK dentistry’s most respected figures. 

After experiencing a life-altering crisis in 2017, she has emerged with a deeper understanding of life’s purpose and now shares her story to help others facing similar challenges.

Payman Langroudi: This pod is brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover, which is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite hands on course led by Depeche Palmer. Loads of people [00:00:10] do A-line, bleach, bond, and there’s plenty of people who find the aligning bit [00:00:15] and the bleaching bit more comfortable, but the bonding bit a lot less comfortable. [00:00:20] And the bonding bit is the bit. Is the sugar on top of the case? My advice is practice, [00:00:25] but if you want to go on a course, the best course I know is called Mini Smile Maker all the way from [00:00:30] class three, four, five to diastema closure, composite veneers, the Basics [00:00:35] and the advanced Monochromatic Polychromatic Restorations mini Smile makeover. If [00:00:40] you’re interested, let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:55] Your hosts Payman [00:01:00] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome [00:01:05] Sharon Walsh onto the podcast. Sharon is a dentist who had a pretty conventional [00:01:10] first half of her career, and then a pretty unconventional second [00:01:15] half, where she has had several issues around associates, [00:01:20] um, alcohol misuse, GDC [00:01:25] complaints and has now come out the other side of it all and, [00:01:30] um, wants to talk about it, wants to talk about her journey. Massive pleasure to have you, Sharon. [00:01:35] Thank you. Thanks for coming all the way. Um, also a contemporary [00:01:40] of our friend who’s episode three on this podcast, one [00:01:45] of my best friends who went to university with him, I think, and put us in touch. He did? [00:01:50] Yeah. Sharon, we’ll get to the the whole enchilada, [00:01:55] you know, as the as the conversation goes, goes forward. [00:02:00] Well, sometimes I’ve got like a burning question that I just want to ask. And if I don’t ask it and I’m thinking [00:02:05] about it the whole time, but when in a moment of adversity, you [00:02:10] sort of alluded to me that you now have sort of the tools [00:02:15] to manage adversity better than before in [00:02:20] a moment of adversity. What is the way to get through the other side? What [00:02:25] are the first 2 or 3 steps? [00:02:30]

Sharon Walsh: I think you have to learn to to come into acceptance. I [00:02:35] think that you have to begin to trust [00:02:40] yourself within and be patient. And I think [00:02:45] one of the most important things, the most important thing for me, Payman, is to learn to live in the moment [00:02:50] because there is no past and there is no [00:02:55] future. There’s that’s just here and now. And if I can keep [00:03:00] practising and being here and now with with what is then [00:03:05] the mind quietens. And so everything’s [00:03:10] okay.

Payman Langroudi: The acceptance first [00:03:15] of your situation.

Sharon Walsh: You have to accept because [00:03:20] if you resist what’s going on, [00:03:25] you just create more suffering. And by not resisting it and by letting [00:03:30] a life almost flow through, then it [00:03:35] is what it is.

Payman Langroudi: So, Sharon, you had a practice of your own, a private practice? [00:03:40] Yes. Where was that lead?

Sharon Walsh: No, it was near Rochdale. Rochdale. In the Pennines. Nice. [00:03:45] Yeah. It was.

Payman Langroudi: Give me the flavour of that practice. What were things [00:03:50] like before things started going wrong for you?

Sharon Walsh: Well, I took the practice [00:03:55] on. It was a shed, and I did the whole place out from the floor upwards, [00:04:00] literally. And it was beautiful. And [00:04:05] I think I created a, I created [00:04:10] a safe space for people. Patience. I know a lot of patients said to me they didn’t think it was [00:04:15] like going into a dentist’s surgery. So like, I’d have water and coffee in the waiting [00:04:20] room. And before it was fashionable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it was still [00:04:25] probably still not fashionable. Apologies.

Sharon Walsh: No, it’s all [00:04:30] right, but I did. I had, you know, I just tried to treat people like I would want to be treated. [00:04:35]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sharon Walsh: And you know I yeah [00:04:40] I loved it and I just think it was a warm welcoming space.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:45] what kind of size was the practice. How many dentists. How many nurses. How many.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah [00:04:50] it was just little Payman. It was um, [00:04:55] the end of a row of terrace with a chops. And, [00:05:00] uh, was it.

Payman Langroudi: Just yourself working there?

Sharon Walsh: No, there [00:05:05] was a. Yeah, an associate too. And I had two hygienists. Yeah. [00:05:10]

Payman Langroudi: And the atmosphere, how would you how would you sort of categorise the sort of the work atmosphere. Was it very [00:05:15] friendly and.

Sharon Walsh: It was it was sweet and it was very difficult. [00:05:20] It was very difficult with the associate. Um, [00:05:25] I think that he held a lot of resentment [00:05:30] against me from the minute that I came in. So. So he [00:05:35] was.

Payman Langroudi: Existed. He was there before you came in.

Sharon Walsh: He’d been there a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The incumbent? Yes. [00:05:40] So you bought it, and then it didn’t feel good from the beginning.

Sharon Walsh: It felt difficult with [00:05:45] him. From the from the word go? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: What was his bugbear like? If you had to [00:05:50] strawman man. His argument. Like what? Make it make his case for him. What [00:05:55] would he say?

Sharon Walsh: I think he’d been there a long time. I think he thought it [00:06:00] was his. He was a man’s man.

Payman Langroudi: And you came in with ideas. [00:06:05]

Sharon Walsh: And I came in with ideas. And I wanted to do great dentistry. [00:06:10] And I think that deep [00:06:15] down, he really resented that. So it was always difficult. But, you know, [00:06:20] it worked clinically. And at that time I was married with two young children, [00:06:25] and I had a mum who was on her own. My dad had passed and [00:06:30] her mother in law, who was on her own too. So it was it was hard. You know, [00:06:35] I it’s hard being a mom and a wife and then owning a business. Of course. [00:06:40] And then, you know, working in it. Clinically, it’s juggling [00:06:45] all those all those things.

Payman Langroudi: And as far as the as the dentistry itself, [00:06:50] what kind of dentist are you or were you back then? What [00:06:55] kind of work did you do or didn’t you do?

Sharon Walsh: I was a conscientious [00:07:00] dentist. I’m absolutely passionate about dentistry and I’ve never lost my passion for [00:07:05] it, like in my early days, restorative. And I learned with [00:07:10] some of the best. And then I went on to be a member of the Bso’s. [00:07:15] Oh, really? So I knew Roy Hixon really well. Oh, really? Yeah. And then [00:07:20] I kept going back and back and back every year to the, um, [00:07:25] the weekends that they did with Bill. And, you know, some of the really [00:07:30] great, um, daddies of dentistry in the modern era. And [00:07:35] so I found that, you know, when I learned about occlusion, the boring stuff that made [00:07:40] me a good dentist does.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. And then in the [00:07:45] in the latter years, well, my dad came to work with me, with me and he used to do the prosthetics.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a dentist. [00:07:50]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. He was. Yeah. I worked with him for the first seven years of my career, and [00:07:55] he came to work, just did the prosthetics. I was never interested and didn’t really understand it.

Payman Langroudi: Dentures. [00:08:00]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, yeah. And then he died. He died really suddenly. So [00:08:05] he left me cases to do. And I really didn’t really know what I was doing. And [00:08:10] then about 3 or 4 months after he died, I came across John Beresford. Who [00:08:15] was just one of the most wonderful human beings I’ve ever met. [00:08:20] And I went to hear him speak down at Schottlander. Yeah. [00:08:25] And I went on his course and I was mesmerised. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: For those who don’t know him, [00:08:30] very bespoke, sort of set up teeth in a natural way. Yeah. [00:08:35] The way the patient used to look when they were younger, that sort of thing. Right.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. He’s just about. [00:08:40] He’s real. He’s a he’s a true gentleman. He’s real about [00:08:45] life. And he, um, [00:08:50] what he taught me was, was to look at patients as [00:08:55] human beings. And, you know, I think it’s very difficult when you’re in practice, you know, you put. Why [00:09:00] did you have to put up so many walls and defences? And it’s hard [00:09:05] sometimes to look at another as a human being. And he made me [00:09:10] do that. And he made me realise that not having teeth is actually a physical disability [00:09:15] and creates a lot of problems [00:09:20] and a lot of people’s lives. So when you start to look at clients [00:09:25] in that way, it changes the whole way you practice. So that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:09:30] I mean, I, I stopped practising in 2012 and [00:09:35] I found you only really realise what you loved about it [00:09:40] when you stop.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What was that for you. For instance, I found I was [00:09:45] much more interested in the conversations, the people than I was in the teeth. The treatment plans, the [00:09:50] Meccano bit of it. How about you? When you stopped, did [00:09:55] you crystallise what aspects of it you really loved?

Sharon Walsh: I [00:10:00] didn’t want to stop. I was in the prime of my career, but [00:10:05] health took over, so I [00:10:10] didn’t have a choice.

Payman Langroudi: What did you miss about dentistry, though?

Sharon Walsh: What [00:10:15] do I miss now about it? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What aspect of it? See, I’m very happy not to [00:10:20] being a dentist. Very happy not practising. But I really miss the people part. I really do. [00:10:25]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, I understand that, Payman. I miss the connection with people. And [00:10:30] I miss the challenge of it, to be honest with you.

Payman Langroudi: Problem solving? Yeah. [00:10:35] Clinically?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. I was one of those people, you know, you came in, I could sit and [00:10:40] I’d look in the mouth, and within a few moments I could see from [00:10:45] A to Z. So my biggest challenge was like stopping and saying, right, [00:10:50] stop and now go A, B, C, D and plan it properly. [00:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, what were you like as a business owner, as a sort of staff motivator [00:11:00] or that kind of person? Were you good at that or not? I think I [00:11:05] found.

Sharon Walsh: It quite hard. You know, I think it’s being a boss is the most loneliest [00:11:10] thing in the world. And, you know, everybody thinks that you’re making, [00:11:15] um, so much more money than them and that you’re just, you know, when you’re not there, you’re [00:11:20] gallivanting around and and they all want a bit of you and however much you [00:11:25] do as a boss, I found people just want more and more and more. There’s never a it’s like [00:11:30] you can never do enough. So I don’t know if I really got the [00:11:35] the lesson about being a good boss. I remember the stuff you said to me, oh, you’re so lovely [00:11:40] and you’re such a good boss, but I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:11:45] definitely that loneliness element that you mentioned. And I think however touchy [00:11:50] feely a business is, however happy a business is, there are moments where [00:11:55] it becomes an us and them between management and team. Yeah, that certainly happens. [00:12:00] You know, over a period of time that’s going to happen sometimes. And I found in [00:12:05] those moments are the moments that I value having partners the most. [00:12:10] And you know, in those moments I didn’t have a partner. I could imagine that being very, very lonely. [00:12:15] It was.

Sharon Walsh: Very lonely. I mean, my ex husband was a lawyer, [00:12:20] so contract and employment. So, you know, he could come in on those areas that [00:12:25] I absolutely had no clue about. Um, which is what [00:12:30] I wanted to touch on, really, when you asked me about the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: Because let’s talk [00:12:35] about how this all started going wrong for you, because it sounded like you were in a private practice [00:12:40] where you liked your work, liked your patients, your patients liked you. How [00:12:45] did it go wrong?

Sharon Walsh: Um, I’ll tell you the [00:12:50] day. It was February the 4th, 2017, and the associate handed his noticing.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:12:55] you remember the day?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, I remember where I was. I was having my I was having my [00:13:00] nails done. Go on. He sent an email through, [00:13:05] and my first thought was, thank God. And [00:13:10] from that moment onwards, I [00:13:15] don’t know, something inside me knew that I was. Something inside me knew that my [00:13:20] life was going to change. And it did. [00:13:25] And from that moment, the practice began to get [00:13:30] quiet. My patients weren’t coming in, and [00:13:35] it began to become obvious after a very short period of period of time that there [00:13:40] was stuff going on behind the scenes, like communication to patients that [00:13:45] he was going through him and the receptionist, that everything [00:13:50] was being planned. And. So [00:13:55] it was really destabilising. [00:14:00]

Payman Langroudi: So he left and you [00:14:05] found suddenly the books were also becoming quieter at the same time.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:14:10] found that he ended his notice and he took garden leave for three months, and [00:14:15] he went four miles down the road to a supposed friend and colleague who took him in. [00:14:20]

Payman Langroudi: And a bunch of your patients ended up in the new practice?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:14:25] Because he was telling everybody. So. And when you work [00:14:30] in a village and you get around really quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Good and bad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:35]

Sharon Walsh: So.

Payman Langroudi: Were you already like in a financial [00:14:40] crisis point? Because losing an associate itself is an expensive thing and [00:14:45] even the best of times, but losing an associate and losing a bunch of patients with [00:14:50] them, that can really hurt a practice.

Sharon Walsh: It did.

Payman Langroudi: So did you feel financially pressured [00:14:55] to?

Sharon Walsh: Uh, not at first. You [00:15:00] know, Payman, when you have a nervous breakdown and your whole nervous system blows up and [00:15:05] you feel like you’re dying, the last thing on your mind is money. I [00:15:10] couldn’t stand up. I couldn’t sit down, I couldn’t eat.

Payman Langroudi: I was what was causing that problem. [00:15:15] How did it initiate? Was it. Was it? I mean, this is an important question. [00:15:20] Were you on the edge of a breakdown anyway before [00:15:25] this happened? Or was this this event itself [00:15:30] the cause of the breakdown?

Sharon Walsh: I think this was the was the catalyst [00:15:35] for it. And nobody’s ever asked me this before, and I haven’t, you know, like I sometimes pray [00:15:40] on it and I say, why is this happened? Why? I [00:15:45] was going through.

Payman Langroudi: Your head before, you know, when, you know, rather than the crisis [00:15:50] point, what was going through your head that this I’m going to lose the business. What was the what was [00:15:55] the sort of, you know, what main problem?

Sharon Walsh: I think that I started to go into panic mode because I [00:16:00] thought, how am I going to cope with 1500 people on my own and then go home and be [00:16:05] a wife and a mum and keep everything going? Um, and I [00:16:10] just panicked. I think I just went into total and utter panic and [00:16:15] I couldn’t come out of it. Um, and I interviewed [00:16:20] people and I did take somebody else on, and he lasted about three days. It was [00:16:25] just awful. He came in and sat in my surgery and everything started like the chair [00:16:30] broke on the first day and It’s like oil started pouring out on the [00:16:35] floor from the chair and he couldn’t use the hand pieces. And I’m like, oh, God. It’s just, um. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: And where were you then? When when it when it finally hit, you were [00:16:45] at home in bed. Is that how it was? Where were you? How were you feeling? [00:16:50]

Sharon Walsh: I carried on for three months, and, you know, I had. I took [00:16:55] on a new manageress, and she was doing a very best to, you know. Call [00:17:00] patients, bring them back in. Who [00:17:05] knows? I think it’s. It [00:17:10] was just meant to be underpinning [00:17:15] everything. I have a deep inner search. And I think when when you’re [00:17:20] born with that, when you’re born with the question that underpins everything of what is the meaning and [00:17:25] purpose of all of it, then you are. I think I [00:17:30] had to be totally and utterly smashed to to [00:17:35] begin to taste life in a different way. So I don’t [00:17:40] know who does know why. You know, why do these things? Why does it happen? I [00:17:45] mean.

Payman Langroudi: How does it feel?

Sharon Walsh: How did it feel when [00:17:50] I had the breakdown? It’s [00:17:55] a feeling of being totally and utterly [00:18:00] lost. Smashed, not able to function. You [00:18:05] can’t eat. You can’t drink. Well, you can’t talk. [00:18:10] Hardly. You can’t sit. You can’t stand. It’s [00:18:15] revolting.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:18:20] must be tough.

Sharon Walsh: It was.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:18:25] what happened next? You were stuck in that situation.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:18:30] am. My ex took control very quickly [00:18:35] and after three months I went to the doctors and I fell in to [00:18:40] the doctors and she gave me. She put me some antidepressants and she said, come back the next [00:18:45] week. They didn’t even hardly touch me. And within [00:18:50] two weeks he gave my practice away for a pound.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:18:55] were still married at that point.

Sharon Walsh: He gave the practice away [00:19:00] for a pound payment to a nurse who was working there as a locum nurse.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:19:05] were there debts? Was that the problem?

Sharon Walsh: No.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you do that?

Sharon Walsh: Because [00:19:10] he couldn’t cope. And he’d lost work, too. He’d. You know, his work had [00:19:15] reduced at the university, and he was ten years older than me. He was looking to retire. And, [00:19:20] I mean, I was happy to carry on. I would have carried on until I dropped, probably. And [00:19:25] I think he panicked, and he just. He gave it away. [00:19:30]

Payman Langroudi: How did he manage to do that without your consent?

Sharon Walsh: Because [00:19:35] I was in no fit form to to do anything. [00:19:40] And he told me that legally, if you [00:19:45] can’t work for a period of two weeks, that it’s it’s illegal to keep working. [00:19:50] And I don’t know if that’s correct, but that’s what he told me at the time. [00:19:55] And so this woman and her, um, [00:20:00] avaricious, greedy partner took it. Um, [00:20:05] and that was it. And I just broke more and [00:20:10] more. And the next thing I know, I was starting to drink gin and tonics. [00:20:15]

Payman Langroudi: I bet.

Sharon Walsh: And [00:20:20] one gin and tonic became two.

Payman Langroudi: And were you and your husband separated at [00:20:25] this point, too, or not quite yet.

Sharon Walsh: No, I mean, this was only early on. This was like [00:20:30] May 2017. So the associate had left. I’d had a, you know, another guy [00:20:35] come in that hadn’t worked and he’d given the practice [00:20:40] away. I just didn’t know what to do. I knew in my heart that it’s like, what? What [00:20:45] the hell are we going to do? You know, I’d I’d put my everything into [00:20:50] this place. Made it beautiful. Spent probably the best part of 300 [00:20:55] grand on it that I did myself. Wow. And [00:21:00] I just thought, well, you know what? I’d go back and work in the NHS. [00:21:05] I didn’t want to do that because it nearly killed me working in the NHS. We all know [00:21:10] what it’s like. Yeah. Um, [00:21:15] so I just. I had to accept [00:21:20] where I was, I guess. But I started drinking. And the [00:21:25] thing is with alcohol Payman is that there’s an invisible line. And [00:21:30] once you cross it, you are in, um, [00:21:35] you’re in serious trouble.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:21:40] how long was that going on for? Was it very quickly [00:21:45] that you fell into that?

Sharon Walsh: Uh, I think it was quite quickly that I fell into it. Yeah. [00:21:50] And then, um, Martin got me admitted [00:21:55] into hospital till I stopped. And at that time, I worked really [00:22:00] hard. And it was, you know, I, I was just struggling to [00:22:05] hang on. But I’ve got such a strong will inside [00:22:10] and a strong faith that I just went with it. And by the end of the [00:22:15] three months, they consultants had you fit to go back to work. So I [00:22:20] came out and I did. I went back to work. I went to went to work for another corporates. Between [00:22:25] March 2018 and November and I started working five [00:22:30] days a week in the NHS. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: That must have felt very different.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, [00:22:35] well, it was.

Payman Langroudi: The years of being in private.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. Back to like, 20 odd people [00:22:40] a day being treated so horrendously by the management. Just, [00:22:45] you know, I mean, I think the corporate world is just I think it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Improving, [00:22:50] though. I think it’s improving a lot.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. I don’t know because I’ve not been in it for five years. But [00:22:55] it was they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Realised they’ve realised the most expensive thing is losing an associate.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. You [00:23:00] can’t treat people the way that you treated. You know, you can’t treat people like that.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s very [00:23:05] site dependent as well. You know the particular branch that you’re in sometimes, you know, what [00:23:10] I found with the corporates is the practice manager. And the area manager [00:23:15] are the two most powerful people in the organisation. And if you [00:23:20] happen to have a bad combination of practice and engineering manager in that particular [00:23:25] location that you’re in. Everyone’s life can be ruined by that, and [00:23:30] vice versa as well if you have a brilliant ones. I’ve seen some very, very, very happy, happy [00:23:35] branches and sad branches in the same corporate, same business. [00:23:40] And you’d expect it, you know, the 600 branches. It’s going to be both types of directors. [00:23:45] Sure, but the dentist is less important. The associate [00:23:50] is less powerful than in an independent situation I found. [00:23:55] So were you drinking? The drinking had stopped at this point. Or were you [00:24:00] undercover drinking?

Sharon Walsh: Um, well, my husband [00:24:05] left me, and he went to go back to. He took my little girl and he went to go back and live in Manchester. [00:24:10] So I was working and going home to a big empty [00:24:15] house, and I was drinking, like, four cans of gin and tonic at night. [00:24:20] Passing out. Waking up in the morning. Going to work. Not eating. Coming [00:24:25] back. I managed to function for about eight months.

Payman Langroudi: That’s. That’s a reality [00:24:30] for more of us than we want to admit to. Sometimes [00:24:35] there’s a there’s a number of people functioning alcoholics. [00:24:40] Right. That’s what that is who you know, just and I guess the way it [00:24:45] works, I mean, I’ve never really, really understood been there myself, but but the way I understand [00:24:50] it is if you have a heavy night and then you go to work, work is [00:24:55] so hard that at the end of work you just want to drink just to the fact that you [00:25:00] got through it and that cycle repeats.

Sharon Walsh: It is it’s like [00:25:05] a to begin with. It’s it’s just a cycle. And I guess [00:25:10] the reality is when you for me going back to an empty home without [00:25:15] my husband and my kids there and knowing that the business that I loved [00:25:20] was ten minutes up the road and it wasn’t mine anymore. I [00:25:25] just, I drank. Why? Because it numbs the pain. [00:25:30] It numbs and it dumbs and it. [00:25:35] And then it begins to take a hold and you can’t [00:25:40] stop. And that’s the scary part.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:45] that went on for eight months. Yeah. And then. How [00:25:50] did you how did you feel about the fact he’d taken your child away? I mean, [00:25:55] that that kind of been comfortable. Were [00:26:00] you in touch?

Sharon Walsh: Um, no. Not really. He wouldn’t let me see her. [00:26:05] And my big one was still in and out. She [00:26:10] was working towards going to university. I [00:26:15] think I don’t blame I, [00:26:20] I don’t I have to work on forgiveness. And [00:26:25] this is what acceptance is. It’s forgiving and and knowing [00:26:30] that whatever’s happening is meant to be and is for a reason. So I [00:26:35] don’t blame him for what he did. I wouldn’t want to live with an alcoholic, somebody [00:26:40] who becomes useless and not functioning. I [00:26:45] would do the same in his position, and all I wanted was [00:26:50] for my girls to be okay and they are okay, so. I [00:26:55] have to accept it. Payman I you know, I [00:27:00] can’t. You can never force a relationship with another human being and that [00:27:05] and that’s something I have to, you know, that comes into my mind every [00:27:10] day. You can’t you can’t force somebody. You can’t beg somebody. You [00:27:15] can’t chase somebody. It’s relationships come and go, and [00:27:20] some people stay for a little bit. Some people stay for longer. [00:27:25] And ultimately we’re all on our own. It’s you know, [00:27:30] it. Ultimately, the the path is each of our paths is different. And. [00:27:35] And I truly believe [00:27:40] now and I feel this more and more deeply. I am I’m just I’m [00:27:45] here for a little bit longer, you know, and I’m just something that’s [00:27:50] within a body that’s here to learn lessons. And that is the [00:27:55] that is the meaning and purpose behind it all. So [00:28:00] where my life was so much in the outer world and about [00:28:05] success and trying to be the best dentist and the best mom and the best wife. It’s [00:28:10] actually [00:28:15] about for me anyway. It’s about the soul learning what it [00:28:20] needs to learn in this, in this incarnation and this journey.

Sharon Walsh: And [00:28:25] when it’s learned what it needs, I’ll go. But [00:28:30] saying that, I think there [00:28:35] has to be now for me anyway, there needs to be a merging with the inner and the outer. So. [00:28:40] There’s things that I’d like to [00:28:45] do now, but I’m not scared of death anymore. I’m not scared [00:28:50] of telling the truth. I’m not scared of standing up and being vulnerable. Um. [00:28:55] I want to tell the truth, because I think that unless people [00:29:00] do say and tell the truth, we’re not going to change. Unless I stand now [00:29:05] and say, you know, this is what happened with me with the GDC. And I hope somebody who works [00:29:10] for the GDC listens to listens to this because unless they change what they’re [00:29:15] doing, more people are going to keep taking their own lives. More people are going to become [00:29:20] addicts, and they sit there in their lofty positions, in their jobs, [00:29:25] thinking that they have power over people. Well [00:29:30] they do. False power. But what they don’t understand [00:29:35] is that they’re crushing other souls. He has to change. They [00:29:40] can’t treat other human beings like they’re doing, you know, a professional [00:29:45] people. Why do we beat dentists? Why did I choose dentistry? Because I wanted to help other [00:29:50] people and heal them. They say that they protect the [00:29:55] public. Well, who is the public? And [00:30:00] why do they take a hefty fee off us and not protect us? [00:30:05] They don’t give us any protection. What they do is crush [00:30:10] crushers for the most inane. A lot a lot of stories I’ve heard for the just [00:30:15] the most ridiculous mistakes that any human being can make. And [00:30:20] then they they’ll crush somebody and stop them from working and earning a living.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:30:25] think it’s better GDC wise as [00:30:30] well. Talking to people involved. Um, but [00:30:35] tell me about the GDC experience. What was it? How long did it take.

Sharon Walsh: The pain [00:30:40] on my neck for? Seven years.

Payman Langroudi: Seven years? Yeah. Seven [00:30:45] years. So you’ve got mountains of paperwork and [00:30:50] just lawyers and. Yeah. Seven [00:30:55] years. And the crux of [00:31:00] it.

Sharon Walsh: Never give up.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:05] the crux of what they were saying. The fitness to practice thing. Do [00:31:10] you want to talk about that.

Sharon Walsh: Or you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Mind? You don’t have.

Sharon Walsh: To. I don’t mind talking about it. I mean, the last review was [00:31:15] in November. They used evidence that [00:31:20] was incorrect against me. Two major things. One, [00:31:25] they employed a doctor consultant psychiatrist who I met three times [00:31:30] over a zoom who asked me the most banal and inane questions [00:31:35] that were one dimensional, and then decided he’d make a diagnosis [00:31:40] that nobody else has diagnosed me with. And [00:31:45] when it came to the actual review, he was sat there and then he said, can I go now, please? [00:31:50] I’ve got other activities. And [00:31:55] then by no, I mean, it’s three years now. Come March, [00:32:00] I’ve, you know, since I’ve touched a drop of alcohol. And I never will again as long as I live. [00:32:05] But they based it on the fact that I hadn’t drunk for 18 months because of a hair sample. That [00:32:10] said, there was nought point, nought, nought something percentage of alcohol [00:32:15] in it, which I’d said to my lawyers, it’s well, it’s not alcohol. The only thing [00:32:20] that can be is the hair sample. So. So [00:32:25] they were going on the fact that I’ve not drunk for 18 months, which [00:32:30] is a lie. And then you sit there, you’re not allowed to say anything [00:32:35] that times they. Well, first of all, they weren’t on time [00:32:40] through each session they were late. And then they start cracking jokes with [00:32:45] each other whilst you’re sat there helpless, watching them discussing your life. Is [00:32:50] antiquated. So they go back to [00:32:55] her. There was an older chap there who was obviously a lawyer, and he, you know, he just [00:33:00] kept talking about the exacting points of law, which you don’t [00:33:05] even, you know, you can’t even begin to comprehend it. And as a, you know, as [00:33:10] a healthcare professional, we’re not lawyers.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I mean, I’ve been involved in one [00:33:15] legal case. And for those who haven’t, I think the most important thing [00:33:20] was that the first time you were ever involved in a legal situation, the GDC. [00:33:25] So the first time you go into it thinking, well, you know, the truth will out and [00:33:30] a lawyer is a lawyer and you know that that’s that’s the way I was going [00:33:35] into it. The truth will come out finally. But then you realise [00:33:40] actually it’s a it’s a real specialised situation of its own and [00:33:45] kind of how good your lawyer is is the most important variable [00:33:50] in the whole thing rather than what actually happened. Yeah. And often [00:33:55] the if you’re, if the other side and whoever the other side is [00:34:00] understands the law, they can really manipulate that outcome. And [00:34:05] obviously the other side does understand the law.

Sharon Walsh: So I [00:34:10] don’t trust anything in our life anymore. Really I don’t. Because [00:34:15] out of life and because we function from an ego, and [00:34:20] it’s not until you taste that and begin to detach from it [00:34:25] that you see that there is no, um, there’s no winner and loser in [00:34:30] outer life. And you’re right, the law is, um, [00:34:35] the law is for people who specialise in the law. But you get involved with these [00:34:40] people and they will use that to batter [00:34:45] you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Tell me about recovery. What [00:34:50] was the moment? What was what was the sort of inflection point? Were you the sort of classical [00:34:55] hitter all time low and decided you had to make a change [00:35:00] situation? Or how did it did it.

Sharon Walsh: Happen with the.

Payman Langroudi: Alcohol?

Sharon Walsh: Well, [00:35:05] the journey then after I finished working for the corporate, [00:35:10] it’s been six years. I’ve probably been in about 16 different places, [00:35:15] passed from pillar to post, rehab [00:35:20] to rehab because my ex didn’t want me back, breaking more and more. I [00:35:25] went to Italy on my own. [00:35:30] That was the last time I saw him. Had come out of hospital again and I thought [00:35:35] I was homeless. He’d taken my inheritance from my mum. I [00:35:40] had nothing. Apart from a suitcase with a few old clothes in it. He sold my house. [00:35:45] Taken every single thing. So I got to saw my girls. And him for the [00:35:50] last time was in October 2019. And I got [00:35:55] on a plane to Italy. And [00:36:00] then there was another two years of [00:36:05] trying to make a life in Italy and then going to Thailand and spending eight months [00:36:10] there. And then I came back and I fell into into big time drinking. [00:36:15] And I was, um, I was dying. And [00:36:20] one day I got [00:36:25] up and there was one person in my life called Jack, who was an 88 year [00:36:30] old Ex-gangster who lived two doors away from me, and he [00:36:35] saved my life. Payman. And because I used, he [00:36:40] gave me a reason to live. And I got up one day and I had half [00:36:45] a bottle of wine in the fridge. And I stood there at the sink and I poured it down the sink. [00:36:50] And I’ve never touched a drop since.

Payman Langroudi: But what was it? What was it? What was [00:36:55] the reason that at that point?

Sharon Walsh: Because I didn’t want [00:37:00] my daughters. To know that their [00:37:05] mum had died of being an alcoholic.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say you were dying, you [00:37:10] could feel that your health was getting worse every day or something. How could you? [00:37:15] How could you feel that you were dying at that point, rather than six months before that point, or [00:37:20] one year before that point? What happened?

Sharon Walsh: I was lying in [00:37:25] bed because I didn’t get out of bed that much for a while, and I closed [00:37:30] my eyes. And. In my [00:37:35] mind’s eye, I saw two angels stood at the foot of the bed.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa! [00:37:40]

Sharon Walsh: And. [00:37:50] I [00:37:55] just knew that I had to stop and I knew that. [00:38:00] I knew that I needed to carry on.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:38:05] were you spiritual [00:38:10] before?

Sharon Walsh: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t sort of find some. [00:38:15] I mean, this the way you were talking about outer world. Inner world? Yeah. [00:38:20] Were you always spiritual?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, since I was a kid. And then with my husband, I had a long spiritual [00:38:25] search. So my life has started again. Is [00:38:30] based around prayer. I go, um, I love going and sitting in churches. I [00:38:35] have a Sufi sheikh, so I go and sit with. I go and sit with him. [00:38:40] I’ve been to. Yeah, I’ve met some amazing people. I [00:38:45] spent time with a Zen Buddhist monk called Thich Nhat Hanh in France. I [00:38:50] went to live with him for a while Um. [00:38:55]

Payman Langroudi: So the journey, the journey from that moment of [00:39:00] realisation that you wanted to choose life and [00:39:05] you poured that wine down the sink to [00:39:10] the person you’ve become now to seems resilient because, [00:39:15] you know, in substance abuse, a lot of times you’re sort of not resilient. [00:39:20] And you turn to the substance to how have you, how have you [00:39:25] done that? How have you, have you? Have you? Is it is it like, have you gone into the spiritual side and learned more [00:39:30] about it and learned more about yourself? And is that what it is?

Sharon Walsh: For [00:39:35] me, and I think if it’s for me, then it’s probably for [00:39:40] for most of us, really. There comes a time when you have to go [00:39:45] within and you have to start peeling back [00:39:50] the layers that we hide behind. And [00:39:55] as painful as it is, and as as [00:40:00] tough as it is to look at all the all those [00:40:05] masks, all those fears, those anxieties, the doubts, [00:40:10] the selfishness, the lies, the deceit. When [00:40:15] you start to walk into it, then [00:40:20] the fear and the anxiety start to dissipate and you [00:40:25] start to dissociate from it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:40:30] that what you mean by acceptance?

Sharon Walsh: Yes. It’s [00:40:35] not that it goes away. I was scared coming down here today. [00:40:40] I was I didn’t, you know, I thought, My God, I’ve not really [00:40:45] I mean, Anil said, you’ve got to plan for it and make sure you go and you look smart. And [00:40:50] I’m thinking.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Sharon Walsh: I.

Payman Langroudi: Was always worried about how everyone looks.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. He [00:40:55] was like that when he was at dental school. I love you. I know, honestly, I love him to bits. We do. And [00:41:00] do you know what, I adore him. He’s just. Honestly. Which I’m [00:41:05] so blessed with. Good friends at Payman. And, you know, it’s what [00:41:10] makes life really connection to beautiful people. And [00:41:15] then accepting and rejection from others, walking [00:41:20] away from others that hurt your soul. But when you’re with them and those people. [00:41:25] Now I’m beginning to kind of look at that as a blessing, because [00:41:30] those that hurt you and try to destroy you, and whose souls you [00:41:35] bang up against, his personalities you bang up against. They’re your greatest teachers. [00:41:40] Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: You know that. Have you, have you had any [00:41:45] sort of guilt along the way that you’ve had to sort of forgive yourself for.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:41:50] I’m always giving myself a hard time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I mean that learning to forgive yourself [00:41:55] is a big skill in itself, right? I mean, all of us are a bit too hard on ourselves sometimes.

Sharon Walsh: I’m [00:42:00] very hard on myself. But then there comes a point. Sometimes you have to say, do you know what, [00:42:05] Shaz? Just. Forgive yourself [00:42:10] and be kind to yourself. Even if it’s just for half an hour a day. Mhm. [00:42:15] Because, you know, I don’t know what you’re like but people you know, give me compliments and, [00:42:20] and I was like oh. So. Um [00:42:25] but yeah I think you have to learn [00:42:30] to start forgiving.

Payman Langroudi: And how did you feel for [00:42:35] instance did you when when these things are happening, do you think what will people think [00:42:40] of me, piers? The shame [00:42:45] of sort of GDC, hearing that sort of thing.

Sharon Walsh: Well, you know [00:42:50] what? I guess there’s a lot of people out there who [00:42:55] who think that they know me. The thing underneath it all is that [00:43:00] nobody really knows anybody else. So you will no doubt [00:43:05] have judgements or thoughts about others, but. And judgements [00:43:10] and thoughts about me and our little meeting. But you don’t really know the whole of me, and I don’t know [00:43:15] the whole of me either. So I know that some people will [00:43:20] think that I’m a, you know, will you and will want to batter me if they wish to, with [00:43:25] the fact that, you know, I’ve had mental illness, anxiety and depression and a nervous breakdown, [00:43:30] and I became an alcoholic. So therefore they were probably thinking in [00:43:35] their own mind that because they haven’t had that, then they are somewhat superior to to [00:43:40] me. And that kind of when you feel that superior ness, it kind [00:43:45] of gives you a little buzz inside. You know, you stick your chicken breast out and you think I’m better than you are. [00:43:50] Do you know what the greatest people on the earth are? Those who are homeless. The [00:43:55] greatest people I’ve met are those who are alcoholics and addicts. [00:44:00] Those who suffer and get real. I [00:44:05] know what it’s like to be wealthy. Yeah, I, uh. [00:44:10] So does it hurt? Yeah. [00:44:15] It does. Of course it hurts. What people think about you. But [00:44:20] the truth is, human beings all talk about each other, don’t we? We all [00:44:25] talk about each other behind each other’s back, so. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:44:30] it’s interesting what you’re saying in that, you know, you take the person before [00:44:35] all of this happened, the perfect mum, principal wife. [00:44:40] There were massive unresolved issues [00:44:45] in that person who looked so perfect. And then you’re saying, [00:44:50] now the best people in the world are homeless alcoholics, and it’s because [00:44:55] they’ve been broken to the core, which inevitably is a beautiful [00:45:00] thing. Yeah. The core.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, the core of somebody. Yeah. [00:45:05] Yeah, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A beautiful idea.

Sharon Walsh: Well, you know, Jesus said, didn’t he? In the Bible, [00:45:10] the meek shall inherit the earth, right? The thing [00:45:15] is that the outer life, it’s like the desires that we have. [00:45:20] We think that, you know, if we can make lots of money, we [00:45:25] think that, you know, I’m a doctor, I’m a dentist. If [00:45:30] I’ve got, you know, a beautiful partner and [00:45:35] two kids and I live in a five bedroom house and I drive an Audi Q3. And [00:45:40] you think you’ve made it. And that’s. But [00:45:45] it’s an illusion. The whole thing [00:45:50] is an illusion. Payman. Yeah, it’s an illusion.

Payman Langroudi: I reflect on [00:45:55] that all the time. You know that your relationship with your car is the [00:46:00] same whichever car you drive. It really is. [00:46:05] You know, I’ve had terrible cars and I’ve had brilliant cars. And your relationship with [00:46:10] your car is not worth talking about. It’s not, it’s not. It’s not a relationship. But [00:46:15] people people will will, you know, lay their lives on the line to, [00:46:20] to get that car, you know, to work on a Sunday, work on a Saturday to [00:46:25] pay for that car. And it’s the same with all things, all possessions and and [00:46:30] even achievements. And I mean, now you’re saying even you’re going even deeper than that and saying the [00:46:35] whole shebang. The whole shebang is an illusion.

Sharon Walsh: Well, I don’t [00:46:40] have, you know, I was I Sir. I was very wealthy and I come from [00:46:45] a very wealthy family. And now I’m not. I’m relatively [00:46:50] poor, so. But you know what? [00:46:55] I bought a new car last week for the first time in eight years, and it’s the best thing [00:47:00] that’s happened to me. It’s not an Audi Q3. It’s a tiny little Nissan [00:47:05] Micra, but I’m grateful for it. And every time I sit in it, I think thank [00:47:10] you. The hardest thing I find is to be grateful. I [00:47:15] have to work on that every day, get up and think I’m still alive, right? [00:47:20] Go for a cup of tea. I am grateful for this cup of tea because it’s [00:47:25] not until I’ve been stood on the street homeless. Once I [00:47:30] was homeless, with a suitcase with tattered clothes in it [00:47:35] and a bank card that my ex-husband was in control with. And I’m telling you, when you have got [00:47:40] nothing. It’s the most scariest feeling in the world. Got [00:47:45] nowhere to go. No one to go to.

Payman Langroudi: So what were you doing? Where were you sleeping?

Sharon Walsh: I [00:47:50] was in. It was the last rehab I was in, in Scarborough. And [00:47:55] they threw me out because I just couldn’t take it anymore. I lay in bed one day, [00:48:00] and then the manager came and he said, right, you got 20 minutes to get out. I’m like, I’ve got nowhere [00:48:05] to go. He said, I don’t care. Get out. Wow. So I packed my bag and I stood [00:48:10] there on the street.

Payman Langroudi: Did that feel like a rock bottom? [00:48:15] Must have.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, it was really scary. [00:48:20] So what did you do? I went to a bed and breakfast. [00:48:25] And then [00:48:30] there’d been a guy who’d picked me up from Heathrow airport when I came back from Thailand [00:48:35] that my ex had somehow sorted out. And [00:48:40] I phoned him and he came to the bed and breakfast and [00:48:45] I phoned my sister. And she [00:48:50] said, come here. [00:48:55] My sister saved my life twice. So [00:49:00] I went I went to my sister’s.

Payman Langroudi: Where [00:49:05] was she?

Sharon Walsh: In Leeds.

Payman Langroudi: Where [00:49:10] you now live as well?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, [00:49:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa! What a story. Now [00:49:20] you can practice again after seven long years. Yeah. How [00:49:25] are you feeling about that?

Sharon Walsh: Nervous? I [00:49:30] don’t know if it’s what I want to do anymore. I’ll always [00:49:35] feel passionate about my profession. Um, [00:49:40] I have a close friend who’s offered for me [00:49:45] to go up and shadow her in her practice, and then she said, well, you look, [00:49:50] Sharon. She said, we could maybe book some patients in for you and just do some check-ups and some [00:49:55] hygiene. And I’m thinking, well, why not?

Payman Langroudi: Does she know your [00:50:00] whole story?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, yeah, she’s one of my closest pals.

Payman Langroudi: A lovely friend, a lovely friend.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:50:05] So. So I’m going to do that. And. [00:50:10] Like I said, I just.

Payman Langroudi: See where you go from there. [00:50:15] Yeah, I.

Sharon Walsh: Just take I just take one day at a time. Literally. I have to live in the now [00:50:20] because I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: So are you worried [00:50:25] that you won’t want to do the job anymore? Is that what it is or that you weren’t? You’re [00:50:30] not up to doing the job anymore.

Sharon Walsh: I think I’m worried that. Yeah, both, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Nah, you’ll be [00:50:35] fine. I took I took six years off. Did you? I mean, you know, [00:50:40] albeit when we started the company and then I went back and they [00:50:45] the first two weeks were tough, but after that it was fine. Yeah. Um, [00:50:50] you’ll be fine. Regarding pulling it off the, the clinical, you know, aspects of it that what you say to patients. [00:50:55] All of that is hardwired in after you’ve done it for as long as you’ve done it. Um, but [00:51:00] the question of would you want to do it? I think that’ll be the bigger challenge because, [00:51:05] you know, you’re a different person now to [00:51:10] the person you were then. Yeah, I am. That [00:51:15] said, we’re lucky in dentistry. You know, we can do one day a week if we want [00:51:20] to, two days a week. I think two days. I’ve done all [00:51:25] of it. I’ve done one day a week for years, but did not anymore. But I did for 5 or 6 years. [00:51:30] It’s not correct. You just you don’t get into a rhythm, Them. But two days a week [00:51:35] I think is wonderful life. Dentistry for two days is amazing. And [00:51:40] you know, we’re lucky in that in two days we could make as much money as most people could make in a week.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. [00:51:45] You’re right. And that’s what I’m thinking of. You know, two [00:51:50] days, two days a week would be enough.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:55] And then pursue something else. You know, I mean, I asked [00:52:00] you, why are you here? Why? Why have you come to tell this [00:52:05] story? Well, you know, on, on, on paper, you might think this is something that you might want [00:52:10] to sort of keep quiet. And you said, tell me. Well, tell [00:52:15] tell me again. Come down. Yeah. Why? Why are you here?

Sharon Walsh: Because [00:52:20] I’m standing up for truth and reality. And [00:52:25] if one person listens to this, who’s on the edge of whatever [00:52:30] they’re on the edge of either in the working life or the [00:52:35] home life, and they’re about to turn to drink or drugs, [00:52:40] or they’re facing a GDC hearing, or [00:52:45] they’re thinking about doing something inside that they know that they [00:52:50] shouldn’t. Then I stand as that voice to say, never give up. And. [00:52:55] I know that in your heart [00:53:00] space and know that within there is a guide that guides us all. So [00:53:05] and that compelled me to come down. Really? So [00:53:10] you asked me where you think I’m going. I’ve started to write a book and [00:53:15] I’m being guided by my sheikh. He’s helping me, [00:53:20] and I think I’m going to call it the naked Soul, because [00:53:25] that’s how I feel. I am Payman, I [00:53:30] feel like I don’t. I don’t really feel in this life anymore. I [00:53:35] don’t feel like I fit. I never really felt like I fitted in anywhere I [00:53:40] don’t. I feel less and less. I see and taste life in a different way. It’s crazy. [00:53:45] The truth is, it’s crazy. And when you really look at what we’re doing, [00:53:50] what are we doing and what’s it all about? And having been around [00:53:55] people, addicts, people who have got close to and lost. Yeah, [00:54:00] you see that? You know, we could go any time. [00:54:05] So I think my next step is I’m writing this book.

Payman Langroudi: And then so [00:54:10] the book is about your story. Yeah, yeah. [00:54:15] And how far are you in it? You near the near the end or near the beginning?

Sharon Walsh: No, I’m near the beginning. [00:54:20] I get up each morning and I sit and pray, meditate, pray. And then I just [00:54:25] talk into my phone about. I just [00:54:30] talk? I talk and and tell my journey like I’ve been telling you. And then I’m [00:54:35] going to get it written.

Payman Langroudi: And is there catharsis in it? I mean, does it? [00:54:40] Yeah. Does it heal you to talk about it, to think about it?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. It does. And [00:54:45] I mean, it’s been so much to deal with, so little kind of I think [00:54:50] my mind allows certain things to come in when I’m ready to see it. [00:54:55] Like, I still find it very difficult to even think about my ex-husband. [00:55:00] It’s so painful. And then think about [00:55:05] my children. It hurts a lot, but [00:55:10] I’m starting to, you know, to look at it and and feel just [00:55:15] just be with it. Be with everything that comes up.

Payman Langroudi: Does [00:55:20] your. Feeling [00:55:25] towards your children. How [00:55:30] would you characterise that?

Sharon Walsh: It’s [00:55:35] a depth of love that never [00:55:40] goes away. I [00:55:45] miss my [00:55:50] little girl very much. [00:55:55] Um. And I just pray every day that she’ll [00:56:00] come back into my life. And she did text me at Christmas, which was really [00:56:05] sweet. And so I just, um, I send a little messages most days [00:56:10] with pictures about what I’m doing. And then my big ones [00:56:15] were close, so that’s really lovely. But [00:56:20] she’s in New Zealand.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so are you waiting for your younger one [00:56:25] to invite you back into your life.

Sharon Walsh: Is that I guess I am. Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah, I think [00:56:30] I am. I’d love it to be back in my life.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:56:35] must hurt.

Sharon Walsh: It does.

Payman Langroudi: That must hurt. We [00:56:40] on this pod, we like to talk about mistakes. Clinical mistakes generally. [00:56:45]

Sharon Walsh: But yeah, I guess I made a lot of those.

Payman Langroudi: Leave. Leave clinical to [00:56:50] one side. What mistakes have you made? I mean, outside of the [00:56:55] obvious. What? I’m good at making mistakes. Yeah, but what mistakes? [00:57:00] Like when you go, when you think back on the journey. I mean, [00:57:05] I’d say in this journey, maybe from what, the tiny bit of it. I understand the mistake might have been marrying [00:57:10] that man, you know, like, it could be that.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:57:15] don’t have any. I don’t I don’t have any regrets.

Payman Langroudi: I think of it like that.

Sharon Walsh: No, because it has. [00:57:20] Everything is as it is, as it is. And you do what you do at the time. Mistakes. [00:57:25] I wish I’d been strong enough not [00:57:30] to break and to just ride through the process with the practice. [00:57:35] And in fact, there was a lady who came for interview and we bonded and [00:57:40] we’ve stayed in touch. And I really wish that. I [00:57:45] really wish that I’d taken her on because, [00:57:50] I mean, she went on to have her own practice and then she’s actually had a lot of problems and she’s left the country. [00:57:55] She’s gone to start a new life abroad. But I suppose mistakes. [00:58:00] Yeah. I think if I’d have taken her on, maybe it would have worked. [00:58:05] Clinical [00:58:10] mistakes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about those.

Sharon Walsh: I [00:58:15] was thinking about this when I was coming down, actually, because I saw it in you on the [00:58:20] email. I just thought it was a funny one that one that came to mind. I was working with a new technician [00:58:25] prosthetic. Technician. And I was making two sets of four falls [00:58:30] with him. And the trains were great. And I was really happy [00:58:35] with what we were doing. And it came to fit. And the first person. Came in, and I [00:58:40] took the dentures out and tried to fit the upper, and it just went nowhere near.

Payman Langroudi: The wrong [00:58:45] patient.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. And I was like, you know, when you try to run and I’m thinking. The train was [00:58:50] perfect. And I’m like.

[TRANSITION]: Oh.

Sharon Walsh: No, he put the dentures in the wrong [00:58:55] bags. So you.

Payman Langroudi: Tried the other set, ready to.

Sharon Walsh: Try the other [00:59:00] set ready. But it didn’t even cross my mind. And I’m just thinking, what have I [00:59:05] done wrong?

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Sharon Walsh: So that’s one of the funniest [00:59:10] things. Ever. It wasn’t funny at the time.

Payman Langroudi: What did you do? You apologise to the patient and, [00:59:15] uh. Called the lab.

Sharon Walsh: I can’t even know. I think I had both sets there. I [00:59:20] think I think I went back in. I think I actually after about half an hour of trying to shove this [00:59:25] up attention, I went in the back and thought, My God, I think that the back, the dentures [00:59:30] are in the wrong bags. Oh gosh. I [00:59:35] think. You know, when you’re younger, I remember thinking [00:59:40] I needed to try and save every single tooth and every single person’s mouth. Yeah. [00:59:45] And as you get older, you realise you can’t do that.

Payman Langroudi: Some hero antics.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah [00:59:50] I tried, yeah, I tried to be a hero dentist.

Payman Langroudi: In my, in my early career [00:59:55] when before I understood this, I used to go subgingival caries [01:00:00] removal. It would become an RCT and it would all be subgingival. And I’d [01:00:05] still think I can do this. Yeah. And, you know, try and keep this, find that canal [01:00:10] and keep it all dry. And then you realise you can’t. You can’t.

Sharon Walsh: No you can’t. [01:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: Even on the times that it worked, it probably didn’t work for long. No.

Sharon Walsh: You can only [01:00:20] do what you can do. Um. And [01:00:25] it’s hard. You know, I think as dentists, we’re in this little surgery on our own a lot of the time, [01:00:30] and we’re having to make decisions on the spur of the moment. [01:00:35] And, you know, if you are, if you come [01:00:40] from a place where you’re empathetic and you care and you’re compassionate, you just want to help everybody. [01:00:45] But as time goes along, you realise you can’t. You can’t do that. [01:00:50]

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think dentists take their own lives more than others?

Sharon Walsh: I. [01:01:00] Well, I’ve. Dentistry is the only job I’ve ever known, but [01:01:05] I think that it is. I think that it’s a very [01:01:10] lonely job. Payman. I think it is. You know, obviously you are with another [01:01:15] being and you pick up the up the energy from the other being. And [01:01:20] a lot of the time when they’re coming, it’s, you know, it’s negative. They’re scared. They’re anxious. [01:01:25] They don’t want to pay you. And you pick this all up. And [01:01:30] I think that it’s a constant endurance test, [01:01:35] you know, working with another human being in the mouth, which [01:01:40] is the most intimate part of another person’s body. [01:01:45] And it takes its toll. Yeah. [01:01:50] It takes its toll on you. And, you know, physically, it takes its toll. And I used to be really [01:01:55] stiff physically. And then I found yoga, which is where I’m going back to it. [01:02:00] It just booked in yesterday.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. But my cousins are eye surgeon and [01:02:05] he was telling me on his GAA days he [01:02:10] has a lovely relaxed day, but on his LA days they’re twice as [01:02:15] stressful. Yeah. And and you know, they’re having to put injections in the eyes and [01:02:20] it’s a similar a live patient who you’re potentially going [01:02:25] to hurt. And every time you give an LA potentially you’re going to cause [01:02:30] pain there. Yeah. But you’re right. You take on that stress [01:02:35] from every patient. Yeah. You do the four walls, [01:02:40] the loneliness of it. I completely accept as well. I mean, even though [01:02:45] it’s a people job, the only person who’s there the whole time is your nurse. [01:02:50] And I’ve often thought, you know, I got on with most of my nurses, the [01:02:55] vast majority. But if you don’t, if there’s a situation where you’ve got a clash with [01:03:00] your nurse, your nurse hates you. Let’s say for whatever reason, [01:03:05] now you’re coming in every day to a room with someone who you’re not getting [01:03:10] on with, and then you’ve got this stress of each patient Then [01:03:15] throw in a GDC case. Yeah.

Sharon Walsh: So to [01:03:20] answer the question, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, a human being can only take so much.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:03:25]

Sharon Walsh: I can’t believe I’m alive. I don’t know why I’m alive.

Payman Langroudi: Did [01:03:30] you ever have the sort of suicidal ideation? Did you think about taking [01:03:35] your own life?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like how how how much? Like, [01:03:40] explain that to me. Should talk me through that. You got to a point of saying I’m going [01:03:45] to do it, or the feeling of wanting to do it kept coming up in [01:03:50] your head. Yeah.

Sharon Walsh: It had enough. Sometimes. I’ve had enough now. Yeah. [01:03:55] You still.

Payman Langroudi: Think about.

Sharon Walsh: It? Um. I would never take my own [01:04:00] life, but I go to. I often go to bed, you know, and I.

Payman Langroudi: Get to an edge.

Sharon Walsh: I get to an edge, [01:04:05] and I think I’m tired. I’m tired of, you know, every day. Every day [01:04:10] is hard. Every day is a challenge. Alonge [01:04:15] and I. And sometimes I think I say, Dear God, [01:04:20] I’ve had enough. I just want to go home. I’ve tasted death. [01:04:25] And you know what? It’s actually very beautiful. It’s [01:04:30] actually a release. And [01:04:35] so what’s there to be scared of? Annie [01:04:40] Lennox, you remember the. Yeah. She wrote some words and she went in [01:04:45] this song. Dying is easy. It’s living that scares me to death.

Payman Langroudi: Nice [01:04:50] twist at the end.

Sharon Walsh: It does scare me to death. I [01:04:55] talk to my shake. I’m like, I don’t know what to do anymore. What do I do? My [01:05:00] husband’s gone. I don’t own a home. My kids are not [01:05:05] there. I’m in a little flat that hardly has anything [01:05:10] in it. It’s like [01:05:15] I have no partner in my life and I’m alone a lot [01:05:20] of the time.

Payman Langroudi: So as you said, they were all alone.

Sharon Walsh: We’re [01:05:25] all alone. And actually, you know, you learn a lot about yourself when you’re alone. [01:05:30] You learn what? And you learn what you don’t want.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Sharon Walsh: But [01:05:35] when you try and and put yourself out there again and get rejected, [01:05:40] you think oh I can’t be bothered.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:45] It’s been a massive [01:05:50] pleasure listening to you.

Sharon Walsh: Thanks for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Of [01:05:55] course. Um, as soon as I read your initial email, [01:06:00] whatever it was text, I thought I’d have to talk to you and see what what what’s [01:06:05] going on here? We tend to end on the same Questions. Fantasy [01:06:10] dinner party. Three guests.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. I was thinking about [01:06:15] this. Dead or.

Payman Langroudi: Alive?

Sharon Walsh: Two. [01:06:20] Two who have passed and one alive. George [01:06:25] Ivanovich Gurdjieff, who was [01:06:30] a master. He died in 1949. I [01:06:35] just read his books. He developed [01:06:40] the fourth way. Like learning in life. He had a passion. [01:06:45] He had his burning passion was who am I and what’s it all about? Read [01:06:50] his books. Been involved in the Gurdjieffian work? It’s what bonded [01:06:55] me and my husband together. So him.

Payman Langroudi: What was his name again?

Sharon Walsh: George Ivanovich [01:07:00] Gurdjieff. Mr. Gurdjieff. He was a seeker of the [01:07:05] truth. And he was born. He was Greek, Armenian, born in, [01:07:10] I think 1866, just had the most amazing life. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: And the name of the book.

Sharon Walsh: He’s written several books.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:07:20] but the best one, the.

Sharon Walsh: Best one is [01:07:25] called something. I have to look it up. Payman. My short term memory isn’t good. That’s [01:07:30] a lie. Yeah. Life is only real. When I, um. [01:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: When I am, when.

Sharon Walsh: I am.

Payman Langroudi: Real.

Sharon Walsh: Life is only real [01:07:40] when I am.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll check.

Sharon Walsh: It out. Yeah. So him. And then the [01:07:45] second person, Paramahansa Yogananda, who [01:07:50] was an Indian who came to the West and brought, [01:07:55] um, was one of the first people to bring yoga to the West. And I broke my Achilles [01:08:00] about, um, 12 years ago. And [01:08:05] so I had to stop. I had to sit. And I read his autobiography. [01:08:10] It’s absolutely incredible. It’s [01:08:15] one of the most incredible books I’ve ever read. So I’d love to have had dinner with him. [01:08:20] Living. I’d like to meet the King. Charles. [01:08:25] Charles? Yeah, I think that. I [01:08:30] think that he’s a deep soul. And [01:08:35] and I admire him. I admire him. I mean, I just that family’s [01:08:40] been through such hell. I don’t care how much money you’ve got, how many houses [01:08:45] you’ve got, what status you’ve got. At the end of the day, you go to bed on your own, you get up [01:08:50] on your own. And we’re all human beings on a journey. And I just think [01:08:55] that he’s he’s been through so much in his life and, you know, [01:09:00] to stand up and reign after his mum, who reigned for 70 years. That’s tough. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: Would you not want the Queen herself?

Sharon Walsh: I loved the Queen. I’d have loved to have [01:09:10] met her.

Payman Langroudi: You could throw her. Should we throw her in a fourth? Have a fourth guest?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, I’d [01:09:15] love to. I’d have loved. I mean, what a woman she was. I mean, just extraordinary. [01:09:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I think with the royals, you end up. [01:09:25] I mean, you must have seen Charles since he was a teenager. Yeah. So you end up watching [01:09:30] every part of their life all the way up from a teenager to cancer [01:09:35] diagnosis. Yeah. And all the bits in between. Yeah. And so you [01:09:40] do end up having a sort of different appreciation of that life than many others. Yeah. [01:09:45] It’s a funny thing. Well, I.

Sharon Walsh: Think when you start to get older and [01:09:50] you start to get on the other, you know, I mean, I’m nearly 60 now. [01:09:55] You see things in a totally different way.

Payman Langroudi: I just [01:10:00] remember, I’m not a royalist at all. I’m happy for the royal family to disappear. But [01:10:05] when the Queen died, I felt I felt something. The first time [01:10:10] I felt something for someone I didn’t know, you know. Of course. Friends, family, those [01:10:15] people. Sure. But. But someone I didn’t know at all. I just felt something there. And I [01:10:20] was thinking about. Why is that? Why am I feeling something when I don’t believe in royalty? I don’t believe [01:10:25] in, in in that system at all. And and thinking about it, I thought [01:10:30] what I said about you watch someone and often, often you’re crying [01:10:35] for yourself. I didn’t cry, but but I could have. Often you’re crying for yourself rather than that person as well, because [01:10:40] it’s also your life that when what? Charles be a 15 year old. Charles [01:10:45] be a 25 year old child? Where was I when he was there? Where was I? It’s an interesting. [01:10:50]

Sharon Walsh: Thing. Ultimately, I think we’re all connected. We’re all connected. [01:10:55] And do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think your belief in God has strengthened [01:11:00] Since you’ve been through all this?

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, massively.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:11:05] you’ve gotten through it.

Sharon Walsh: Yeah. God is. I feel like I’ve. I [01:11:10] don’t know who or what God is. And I used to be embarrassed to talk about [01:11:15] God. I’m not anymore. Because. Because [01:11:20] ultimately, who and what created [01:11:25] all of this? I mean, you know, what am I? My greatest wish is to become [01:11:30] a nothing. Nobody. And I [01:11:35] just feel that you can break and break and [01:11:40] you can lose. Like, I have lost. Lost most everything. But there is a flame [01:11:45] inside that burns. And there is an inner guidance. And there is. [01:11:50] There’s a calling. It’s almost like a [01:11:55] calling. It’s interesting. We all talk about [01:12:00] God so much, don’t we? You know how many times a day do we say, oh God or [01:12:05] oh, Christ or and we don’t even know what we’re saying.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:12:10] blasphemy, you mean. Well, yeah. Strictly speaking, [01:12:15] yeah.

Sharon Walsh: But we say it, don’t we? So where’s it coming from?

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:12:20] in the language, right? It’s in the it’s in my my my wife’s parents always laugh at me. [01:12:25] They’re staying with us right now. I say Jesus a lot. And there they are, actual Christians. [01:12:30] And I’m not talking about Jesus again. [01:12:35]

Sharon Walsh: Yeah, it’s, um, it’s an interesting one. [01:12:40] I mean, and also, you know, I think that our language, we don’t have the words [01:12:45] in the English language to describe a lot of what [01:12:50] goes on. It’s not it’s we just don’t have the [01:12:55] words to talk about what’s in here?

Payman Langroudi: Final [01:13:00] question. Yes. On your deathbed.

Sharon Walsh: On my deathbed. [01:13:05]

Payman Langroudi: Surrounded by your loved ones. What three pieces of advice would you give [01:13:10] them?

Sharon Walsh: Never give up. [01:13:15] At some point, turn within and start facing everything [01:13:20] about yourself. Trust that everything is going to [01:13:25] be okay.

Payman Langroudi: Right now. A [01:13:30] massive pleasure. Thank you so much for coming in.

Sharon Walsh: Thanks [01:13:35] for having me.

Payman Langroudi: And for doing this in the first place. A lot of respect for [01:13:40] people who do that.

Sharon Walsh: You know, a friend texted me this morning. A dentist who. And [01:13:45] he’s really struggling. And he said to me, he [01:13:50] said, Chaz, I’m so proud of you for doing this. [01:13:55]

Payman Langroudi: Definitely. And and being so open and authentic. There [01:14:00] was a question I asked, and I asked all sorts of questions that you didn’t truly [01:14:05] answer. Look. Look for the real truth. So thank you. [01:14:10]

Sharon Walsh: Thank you.

[VOICE]: This is Dental [01:14:15] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:14:20] in dentistry. Your hosts [01:14:25] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:14:30] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:14:35] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests [01:14:40] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:14:45] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you [01:14:50] think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our [01:14:55] six star rating.

From fleeing revolution-era Iran to building an eight-surgery practice in Norwich, Fariba Zolfaghari shares her remarkable journey of resilience and reinvention. 

Through arranged marriage, divorce, immigration, and starting over as a single mother, Fariba pursued her dental education in Sweden before establishing herself in the UK. 

She opens up about overcoming personal and professional challenges, including a difficult business partnership dissolution and bankruptcy, to emerge stronger. 

Today, she runs a thriving private practice while maintaining her passion for learning and digital dentistry.

 

In This Episode

00:01:50 – Backstory
00:16:35 – Journey to Sweden as an asylum seeker
00:19:35 – Dental education while raising two children
00:41:35 – Starting practice in Norwich
00:46:35 – Business partnership challenges
00:57:25 – Navigating bankruptcy and rebuilding
01:08:55 – Converting to private practice
01:14:35 – Current practice focus and digital dentistry
01:31:40 – Black box thinking
01:37:35 – Fantasy dinner party guests

 

About Fariba Zolfaghari

Fariba is a dentist who qualified in Sweden in 1997 before moving to the UK, where she established her practice in Norwich in 2000. 

She holds a master’s degree in orthodontics from Warwick University and has grown her practice into an eight-surgery facility. 

A champion of digital dentistry and continuing education, she focuses on orthodontics, cosmetic dentistry, and full-mouth rehabilitation while mentoring younger dentists.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by Enlightened Smiles. Enlighten is the world’s most [00:00:05] effective teeth whitening treatment. We’ve treated well over half a million patients across 11 countries [00:00:10] now, so have a look if you want to swap unpredictable, underwhelming results with delighted [00:00:15] patients and higher margins. Enlightened smiles. Get yourself trained. Get your team trained. Let’s get to the pod. [00:00:20]

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get [00:00:30] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:40] Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Fariborz Zolfaghari [00:00:45] onto the podcast. Uh Fariba is a dentist who [00:00:50] had a turbulent journey to dentistry in the first place. And then, [00:00:55] you know, girlboss, um, started her own her own practice in 2000, [00:01:00] in Norwich. Dental. And it’s now a [00:01:05] thriving eight surgery practice. I see far more on the sort of lecture circuit. [00:01:10] Still going, still still learning, still curious. Which is so amazing to [00:01:15] see. Massive pleasure to have you. Thanks for coming.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you for having me. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: So, um, [00:01:20] I like to ask a particular question that’s on my mind. Otherwise [00:01:25] I won’t, I won’t say it. And then I’ll be waiting to say it all the time and all of that. It’s [00:01:30] around this question of curiosity for the work. So [00:01:35] a lot of people, they get to a certain point and then they don’t continue to improve. [00:01:40] But some people, like you, continue to come and learn [00:01:45] and keep going. And in the educational sense, what’s [00:01:50] different about you that that makes you do that? And where the I’d say the majority [00:01:55] of people settle into a pattern and stay in that pattern.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [00:02:00] think I would always like [00:02:05] to give my patients the best service that I [00:02:10] possibly could, and I always want to keep myself [00:02:15] on the forefront of dentistry, at least having the knowledge [00:02:20] to be able to advise my patients about, even if I [00:02:25] don’t have the skills I would like to know.

Payman Langroudi: About, to send them.

Fariba Zolfaghari: An order, [00:02:30] where to send them, what’s possible. What’s possible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but why, why why you [00:02:35] like that? And other people, I mean, no one, no, [00:02:40] no dentist is going to sit in front of me and say, I don’t want to know what’s the latest, but, you know, it’s one of the things [00:02:45] that in our profession tends to happen. I, by the way, the best way to stay interested in being a dentist [00:02:50] is to get better. I completely understand that. But, you know, are [00:02:55] you that type in every endeavour that you do or.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely [00:03:00] I am. I always want to be better than I was yesterday. Really [00:03:05] always, always in all aspects of my life.

Payman Langroudi: And so why? [00:03:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Because I want to grow personally [00:03:15] and in my professional field as [00:03:20] well. I think it’s very important for one’s, [00:03:25] um, confidence for one’s [00:03:30] growth in life as well as, um, in, [00:03:35] in our profession.

Payman Langroudi: I still I’m still not happy with the answer. [00:03:40] It’s not that everything you’re saying makes a lot of sense. [00:03:45] Yeah, but the question of why you found it important [00:03:50] to be the best. Other people want to be to be the quickest or [00:03:55] the kindest, or the richest, or the or the laziest or the, you [00:04:00] know, you continuing to improve at this point? I don’t see I’m on the education circuit a lot. You know, [00:04:05] I go to, you know, so many events and there’s a lot of young people at the events, loads [00:04:10] and loads.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Dentistry is evolving, isn’t it? Yeah. And you have to follow [00:04:15] with these. Yeah. Development of the equipments [00:04:20] and techniques in dentistry and the research [00:04:25] a lot of researches and that is happening. So you want to always be [00:04:30] knowing what’s going on about your [00:04:35] profession that you are in. I don’t want to be asked [00:04:40] a question from a patient and I said I will Google it for you. [00:04:45] Yeah, yeah, at least I have an idea to be able [00:04:50] to provide Aid guidance in that respect, and I think I always [00:04:55] wanted to improve myself in my profession and [00:05:00] personally as well. Um, so you said you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Got a life coach?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes [00:05:05] I do.

Payman Langroudi: When did that start?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Um, I started [00:05:10] early this year.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. I mean, would you recommend it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I would highly [00:05:15] recommend it.

Payman Langroudi: What happens? What does it mean? A life coach. What does that mean?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Well, um, [00:05:20] because of the events that has [00:05:25] happened to me all over the years. Um, I think there were [00:05:30] still issues that not healed with [00:05:35] myself. Okay. And, um, I realised that [00:05:40] I got a a need [00:05:45] to speak about those issues and to get a the guidance, [00:05:50] how I could help myself to heal, basically, [00:05:55] and to get over those issues. And because you [00:06:00] always want to know why it happened, why me and [00:06:05] why the other people behaved like they did. And. [00:06:10] Literally, it was the sadness [00:06:15] and the depression that I used to get. And [00:06:20] that’s one of the reasons I thought that I [00:06:25] need to speak with somebody to help me, guide me and go [00:06:30] through the healing process.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the difference in a life coach and a therapist? Is it similar [00:06:35] or is it different?

Fariba Zolfaghari: A life coach? It [00:06:40] will change your behaviour based [00:06:45] on what your needs Edith are a therapist. [00:06:50] You go and speak to them and they listen [00:06:55] to you. But they probably wouldn’t go deep into the foundation [00:07:00] of the problem. They can listen to you and give [00:07:05] you some guidance. But the life coach, it gives you [00:07:10] guidance, gives you tactics and tactics to deal with your [00:07:15] issues, even the daily issues that you have. And [00:07:20] luckily, she is not only a life coach, she is my business coach as well. So [00:07:25] I will, um, share with her um, day [00:07:30] by day issues. We have a session every, every week and she [00:07:35] gives me tasks to do. And, um, if I put the work in, we [00:07:40] will get the result.

Payman Langroudi: It’s excellent. That means you’ve still got a mentor now? Yeah. [00:07:45] And are you a you a mentor for other people too? Must be.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I am in the practice. [00:07:50] Yeah, absolutely. Because we have got several young dentists, [00:07:55] um, that have joined the practice. And obviously [00:08:00] clinically I have been teaching them, mentoring them. [00:08:05] Um, and that’s a great reward because I can see [00:08:10] the growth in.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of a boss are you?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think I am a [00:08:15] good boss. Yeah, I think I am. Do you enjoy.

Payman Langroudi: Being a.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Boss? I enjoy [00:08:20] what I’m doing. It’s at some points [00:08:25] it’s really hard because you’re dealing with people. You’re dealing with personalities [00:08:30] and having to deal with different personalities. [00:08:35] Sometimes you have to have a knowledge, [00:08:40] um, how to deal with people. A little bit of bit of psychology, [00:08:45] a little bit of background of knowing the individual and [00:08:50] coming down to their level when you want something [00:08:55] done or when you are speaking to them about the conflict.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:00] there isn’t anyone else that you’re partnered with. Now in the practice, it’s just.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You, [00:09:05] just.

Payman Langroudi: Me. It’s a little bit lonely sometimes when it’s you’re the only one, right? Hundred percent. I mean, I’m [00:09:10] in a big partnership. There’s four of us, but but I do. But it means I have [00:09:15] to split the profits four ways as well. Right. But. But I do recognise when things are really bad. [00:09:20] That’s when you call your partner and that’s not available. I guess you call your business coach. [00:09:25]

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do now, I do now, but a lot of time I [00:09:30] do share with my partner, who has had his own business [00:09:35] for many, many years. Um, and he’s very wise [00:09:40] and advised me about the issues, so I’m [00:09:45] quite lucky in that respect.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the usual way we normally start this podcast. [00:09:50] Tell me about your childhood. What kind of a kid were you? Where were you? What happened in [00:09:55] your childhood that eventually ended up in dentistry? Well, that. That journey.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [00:10:00] was a loved child [00:10:05] and we had a family of five. [00:10:10] Uh, me and my two sisters and brother. Um, [00:10:15] my parents divorced at the age of 11 years [00:10:20] old. And at that time, um, it was really [00:10:25] taboo to talk about it at the school, in the society, in Iran. [00:10:30] And the culture doesn’t look very good. Um, [00:10:35] on divorce. So it was a shame that I carried with me [00:10:40] all over up to the adulthood. And [00:10:45] then obviously, when I finished [00:10:50] my A-level in Iran, um, it was revolution [00:10:55] and universities were closed. There was no [00:11:00] job opportunities for women. Um, as a result, I [00:11:05] had to marry a person [00:11:10] that was decided for me. So basically an arranged [00:11:15] marriage by my parents.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me, tell me just that that were [00:11:20] you at that time thinking this isn’t what I want? Or were you thinking, were you just playing the game?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Did I [00:11:25] did.

Payman Langroudi: They mention it to them and.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Mentioned it? And I broke the engagement. [00:11:30] But unfortunately, again, that’s like bringing shame to [00:11:35] your family. Um, and it wasn’t looked at, um, [00:11:40] very well. Um, in, in my culture. Um, so as [00:11:45] a result, I had to take it back and I had to marry. Um, [00:11:50] but like.

Payman Langroudi: How negative were you about it out of out of ten, were you, like 11 out of ten? [00:11:55] Negative. Or were you, like three and a half? Like, what was it? How bad was it for you that [00:12:00] idea. And before, before even getting into the relationship, the idea of not picking your own [00:12:05] husband.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really.

Payman Langroudi: Bad.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really bad. Really hard. Because, [00:12:10] um. I love somebody else. Oh. Did you? I did one [00:12:15] of my cousins. Um, but unfortunately, it [00:12:20] wasn’t approved by my parents. Yeah. Um, so it didn’t [00:12:25] go anywhere. Yeah. As a result, I had to accept what they [00:12:30] chose for me. Um, and I said to myself, okay, I [00:12:35] will go on with this and I will make it work. [00:12:40] I have to accept.

Payman Langroudi: What other choice did you have?

Fariba Zolfaghari: There was none. No [00:12:45] other choice. Then.

Payman Langroudi: 3 or 4 years into that war started in Iran [00:12:50] with Iraq. That’s right. Is it 3 or 4 years after that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. Yeah. That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:12:55] so you just tell me that. Did you did you feel war was on or. No. You [00:13:00] were in a big city. I mean.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In my city. It wasn’t that [00:13:05] much as other places, but the hardship was the regime. [00:13:10] Yeah. Because we weren’t allowed [00:13:15] to be free as a woman. Yeah. You had to cover [00:13:20] yourself. And I remember at one point, um, we [00:13:25] had a long, um, dress with hijab [00:13:30] with, you know, cover over your head and hair. And I was going [00:13:35] with my youngest sister, who was nine years old, just [00:13:40] to pop down to the shop and get some chocolate for her. [00:13:45] And in my mother’s road, [00:13:50] there were cyclists, the regime’s [00:13:55] soldiers, with knife going on [00:14:00] me and wanted to, you know, attack me. So [00:14:05] that was a horrible event that happened. And as [00:14:10] a result of a few other things like that, and obviously [00:14:15] no freedom of speech, no.

Payman Langroudi: Freedom, you must remember pre-revolution [00:14:20] Iran. You must have been 15, 16, 17 around even as a [00:14:25] six year old, I remember that feeling of, uh, building works everywhere, skyscrapers [00:14:30] going up and a bit like, I don’t know, now you see Dubai or Dubai or something?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. [00:14:35]

Payman Langroudi: Optimism of a exploding economy and and so on. Do [00:14:40] you remember what was the feeling of the people around you regarding revolution? [00:14:45] Was it was the feeling optimistic at first before or. [00:14:50]

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was optimistic. It was optimistic.

Payman Langroudi: Because the Shah was a [00:14:55] dictator and that. Absolutely. But then did you not see the religious ones coming in [00:15:00] immediately?

Fariba Zolfaghari: We, we we were promised a lot of stuff. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: Democracy.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. We were promised a lot of stuff that we we [00:15:10] all believed in. And then when they got their foot [00:15:15] in Iran.

Payman Langroudi: Suddenly everything.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Changed. Everything changed to the [00:15:20] worse. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: The revolution itself? Do you. Do you remember? I remember a six year old [00:15:25] trying to walk in the street. And I remember Chinook, you know, the double, double helicopters flying around [00:15:30] just before the Shah left. And then? And then I remember [00:15:35] statues being pushed over, you know. Yes. Because there were a lot of statues of the show [00:15:40] around. Around the place. And then I remember the fire. [00:15:45] There was fire in the cinema. We had hundreds of people died. Yeah. And it was like a [00:15:50] moment, that moment where suddenly everything changed.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I remember everything exactly [00:15:55] as you say. And we were all so [00:16:00] terrified of what was going to happen to all of us. [00:16:05] I mean, as as a young girl. Yeah. And you were [00:16:10] fearful for your life because at any time you [00:16:15] would have been attacked either by the mullahs or the free for. [00:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: All for a bit, wasn’t.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It? Yeah. By. Yeah. By people that were fighting.

Payman Langroudi: So then [00:16:25] war broke out and you decided you’re going to try and run away. Try and try and get away from war. [00:16:30] Of course. And Sweden was the only I mean, maybe for listeners, the reason why [00:16:35] there are so many Swedish Iranian dentists is because Sweden [00:16:40] was the only country that was even thinking about allowing anyone to to run away.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. [00:16:45] Sweden was the only country that would allow [00:16:50] you to be immigrant there, to go there.

Payman Langroudi: As refugee. [00:16:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Status. Every asylum seeker, asylum seeker, asylum seeker.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:00] tell me about that process. I mean, so you got to [00:17:05] Sweden. What was your first impressions of Sweden?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very cold.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:17:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: And the language was really hard to understand. Yeah. [00:17:15] It was. It is a completely different alphabets. [00:17:20] Yeah. Completely different pronunciations. And very [00:17:25] kind people. Very hospitable. We [00:17:30] were welcomed to their country and we were treated really [00:17:35] well as a family. Because I was married with a daughter who was [00:17:40] three years old.

Payman Langroudi: So now when you now that sort of immigration [00:17:45] and asylum seekers and refugees have been sort of weaponised by [00:17:50] politicians, it’s we’re in that phase of, of the cycle, right. Where, [00:17:55] where that’s become a thing again. How do you feel when when you [00:18:00] see you know, they talk about the boats coming over the, the channel [00:18:05] when you see someone on that boat, just do you, do you feel differently to the narrative [00:18:10] that they’re saying on I do on the TV?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do absolutely, because [00:18:15] I was at one one of them in my, um, [00:18:20] younger age. I was one of them. I wanted to flee my country [00:18:25] to get to the freedom. I was one of them. So yes, [00:18:30] I feel for them. Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened next? [00:18:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: So then I started to go to school to learn [00:18:40] the Swedish language and my degree [00:18:45] a level wasn’t approved in Sweden. So I had to go through the [00:18:50] whole A-level process again with Swedish [00:18:55] language. And I wanted to study medicine [00:19:00] because in my family we had a lot. My uncle was [00:19:05] a surgeon and my mother’s brother. They [00:19:10] both were doctors and veterinary surgeons. [00:19:15] So you know how Iranian culture is. You know, [00:19:20] it’s instilled in you that you either a dentist, doctor or [00:19:25] engineer. So I wanted to do medicine. But medicine [00:19:30] in Sweden is a very long years, and I had [00:19:35] two children, and I didn’t want to spend [00:19:40] more time outside of the house than I already [00:19:45] had done. So I chose dentistry because it’s you [00:19:50] go in the morning and you come home in the evening, and you don’t have to spend [00:19:55] in the hospital doing the shifts and doing all of the emergency [00:20:00] work. So yes, I started [00:20:05] the university school.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, you know, just to go back to the [00:20:10] asylum seeker thing for a second, I don’t want to dwell on it here, but we’ve [00:20:15] got a family member who works at UN, and she was saying that, [00:20:20] you know, when you see an asylum seeker. Often you don’t think [00:20:25] that their uncle is a surgeon. The brother is a veterinary. The you just think [00:20:30] is someone who’s running away, right? You don’t think about the actual story. And she [00:20:35] was saying she was working in Syria for a while, and she was saying the one of the heartbreaking things [00:20:40] was you’d get like a lawyer and a doctor who were married [00:20:45] and with their 11 year old kid and the 11 year old [00:20:50] kid was illiterate, didn’t know how to read and write because they were, for the [00:20:55] last four years, running around trying to just save their lives. Yeah. [00:21:00] And and you know, again, that that whole thing about the immigrant. Right. [00:21:05] You must remember in the UK when it was the single mum was the problem.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. [00:21:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you remember that? Were you in Sweden? Maybe.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Back then I think I was in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: The single mum was became [00:21:15] the thing. Oh, all these people, they want to get pregnant. However, they, you know, as [00:21:20] weaponise that story, you know. And now. Now that story’s gone. Now we’ve got this [00:21:25] story weaponized. Okay, so you decided dentistry. Where [00:21:30] were you living? In Sweden. Which part of Sweden were you? In?

Fariba Zolfaghari: The north of Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: Chilly, cold.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very cold. [00:21:35] Dark, dark. And nine months of the year you had white snow [00:21:40] all over.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your view on the difference in the society in Sweden to here? [00:21:45]

Fariba Zolfaghari: It’s very socialist [00:21:50] over there. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So high taxes. High, high, high services. [00:21:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. And the equality [00:22:00] is followed. You know, wherever you [00:22:05] are, whoever you are, you’re equal to the Prime Minister. You’re equal [00:22:10] to the doctors. You’re equal to your dentist because the income, [00:22:15] it doesn’t differ much. Um, so in that aspect it’s [00:22:20] completely different to UK.

Payman Langroudi: But what does that mean day to day? Does [00:22:25] that mean that society’s like a better place to live or not or not necessarily. [00:22:30] Because here’s quite the opposite. Right here is very much based on your level in society. [00:22:35] And, um, you know, my Swedish distributor I was telling him about, [00:22:40] oh, when he came here, I said, oh, we go to so-and-so to members club. Private members club. And [00:22:45] he said, Just in Stockholm, it just wouldn’t work. No one wants to be special above the rest. Everyone [00:22:50] wants to be the same. Yeah, totally different society, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. I think it [00:22:55] is a better society because then there is no competition. [00:23:00] Um, then there is no rushing, rushing, [00:23:05] rushing to get richer and get richer and get [00:23:10] to the next thing that you want to get the money, you want to get the.

Payman Langroudi: You know, [00:23:15] some people talk about socialism. They say, oh, socialism makes people not want [00:23:20] to be entrepreneurs and not want to make money or, you know, go forward. But [00:23:25] Sweden, some of the best companies in the world have come out of Sweden, right? Yes. They are in amongst all [00:23:30] of this. Yeah. Yes. Spotify or whatever. There’s several there’s several huge companies coming [00:23:35] out of Sweden. In fact, it’s a tech hub and they’ve really pulled it off. So [00:23:40] what’s the problem with Sweden? Why are you here? I mean, the [00:23:45] the.

Fariba Zolfaghari: So the reason I’m here because when I qualified in. No, no, but.

Payman Langroudi: Not not practically. [00:23:50] I mean, what’s the what’s better about here compared to Sweden?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Because you [00:23:55] can grow.

Payman Langroudi: But why can’t you grow there? You can’t, you can’t, you can’t.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, [00:24:00] you can’t grow as you grow here.

Payman Langroudi: Can’t explain it to me. People [00:24:05] don’t put their head above the parapet. Is that is that what it is? [00:24:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do people shoot people down who put their head above? Yes. You won’t get.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Anywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:24:15] really? Really? I never knew that. And how about how about in terms of [00:24:20] the country, would you say as an immigrant, you’re more accepted there than [00:24:25] here?

Fariba Zolfaghari: You are accepted more in in Sweden. But there [00:24:30] is also the other side of the immigrants, where [00:24:35] there is a lot of racism as well in different areas in Sweden. [00:24:40]

Payman Langroudi: More than here.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, I think equal.

Payman Langroudi: But a different character, [00:24:45] my understanding, a different character of racism. Like like someone told me, yeah, if the guy, [00:24:50] he’ll just tell you. Just tell you I don’t ride in taxis that are driven by immigrants. [00:24:55] Yeah. And he said they’re they’re just they’re totally cool with saying it. [00:25:00] Whereas here there may be racism that people just don’t talk about. Is that right? Or is that not right? [00:25:05] Well.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I’ll give you an example. In the new [00:25:10] universities, there were a lot of The Iranian studied [00:25:15] dentistry. And we found one of the professors, [00:25:20] um, that that was our teachers, [00:25:25] um, had this racism about her, [00:25:30] and it didn’t pass that easy. Iranian [00:25:35] students, and you had to be one of the best and [00:25:40] pass all her exams orally and written, uh, [00:25:45] to be able to pass that. So I think [00:25:50] it’s it’s more not an obvious racism. [00:25:55] It’s, it’s quite a hidden.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I thought it was the other way around. Oh [00:26:00] no. I guess you get both. You both.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You get both. [00:26:05] Definitely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so then the struggle to get into dental school, is [00:26:10] it difficult? It must have been.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is very hard.

Payman Langroudi: So you had to learn the language?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I had to [00:26:15] learn the language. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do your equivalent of A-levels in Sweden? Well, within [00:26:20] a couple of years.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. And applied to dentistry and then get into [00:26:25] dentistry and then discuss biochemistry, physiology and Swedish.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In Swedish.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:26:30] did you do all of that in, in that sort of time frame? I did. Wow.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And there [00:26:35] is.

Payman Langroudi: And who was looking after the kids? I mean, what was what was the. Tell me the day to day how [00:26:40] you were studying.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. So when when I studied, I started to study. I had [00:26:45] obviously my ex-husband. And we obviously managed in between us [00:26:50] and to take care of the children and the house chores and what have you. Was he working? [00:26:55] He was working, um, and the second year [00:27:00] I was in the, um, school university. Um, [00:27:05] obviously we had disagreements over the years, and I [00:27:10] divorce him.

Payman Langroudi: In the second year of dentistry?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. Wow. [00:27:15] So I had my two daughters. How old were they? Um, four [00:27:20] and 11. And I had to bring them up at the [00:27:25] same time as I was studying. Um, can I ask.

Payman Langroudi: A silly, stupid [00:27:30] question? Why did you have the four year old? I know you love her and all that, but was that on purpose or by [00:27:35] mistake?

Fariba Zolfaghari: You said that again.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you have the second child?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, that [00:27:40] was a mistake. I wanted my daughter to have a sibling.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:27:45] have someone, yes. Even though you weren’t happy in the relationship. Yes, yes.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Interesting. Because [00:27:50] I have got sisters and brothers and they are [00:27:55] always so close and supporting each other. And [00:28:00] I. Because she was my first daughter, she was seven years old. And [00:28:05] I was just thinking, if something happens to any of us, she [00:28:10] wouldn’t have anyone to be with her and support [00:28:15] her. Supporting each other. So therefore, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think the definition of love, isn’t it, [00:28:20] to put their interests in front of your own interests.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And I couldn’t imagine [00:28:25] my daughter being the only child. And [00:28:30] obviously the another reason is that I wanted the relationship to [00:28:35] work.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Okay. So by bringing [00:28:40] another child.

Payman Langroudi: You thought that would fix it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: You were hoping that. Yes, [00:28:45] that would hopefully. But do you give.

Payman Langroudi: Do you give the advice that that never fixes it? [00:28:50] It makes it worse. Right? Yes. Now there’s more stuff to do in the same nightmare [00:28:55] situation.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But the first reason was for my daughter. [00:29:00] The second one, which is following is.

Payman Langroudi: So how did that divorce go? How did [00:29:05] that happen? How did that. Talk me through it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened? Yes. So I had to divorce [00:29:10] him because we didn’t get anywhere with each other. So [00:29:15] much different personality. Because obviously, being [00:29:20] in a arranged marriage, you never chose. [00:29:25]

Payman Langroudi: Was he older than you as well?

Fariba Zolfaghari: He was. How much? 13 years older than me.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, go [00:29:30] on then.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Go on. And then, obviously, um, I decided [00:29:35] that I need to separate divorce. Um, [00:29:40] because he didn’t want me to be an independent [00:29:45] woman, be an educated woman, and, [00:29:50] um, controlling as well.

Payman Langroudi: You know, when your parents [00:29:55] recommended this guy, did they not were they not thinking around that question? Oh, [00:30:00] they didn’t judge him, right? They didn’t realise or know he became insecure [00:30:05] halfway through. Why? Why would they recommend this guy if he wasn’t?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think they [00:30:10] went after a that. He is coming [00:30:15] from a very good family.

Payman Langroudi: They took it for granted that he would be okay after that. [00:30:20] Oh, interesting.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And obviously during the time of, um, [00:30:25] engagement, um, no one, no one will. Yeah. No [00:30:30] one will show themselves that how they are, you know, um, [00:30:35] how they will behave in, in a marriage towards your daughter.

Payman Langroudi: It talks to the current [00:30:40] situation. Being in dentistry is one of those things. If you’re a woman in dentistry, it’s very [00:30:45] possible that you’re the primary breadwinner in a family because it dentist makes good [00:30:50] money, even. By the way, hygienists come across a lot of hygienists who are the mortgage payer. [00:30:55] That’s right in their house. It talks to this question of, you know, the traditional [00:31:00] roles of, you know, man and woman. How much? How [00:31:05] many women were only staying in the relationship for financial security [00:31:10] when they actually wanted out? Number one. But number two, [00:31:15] what is the art of being a woman who [00:31:20] earns more than her partner? How do you do that with elegance? Because [00:31:25] men want respect. That’s [00:31:30] what a man wants. Respect. And if a woman earns more than the man, he’s just [00:31:35] intrinsically has lost a little bit of respect. So what [00:31:40] should the woman do or the man do to make that relationship work? [00:31:45] I think of many of I know ten people in my circle where the woman is, [00:31:50] is, is the breadwinner. I can only think of one out of the ten where they’re pulling it off. [00:31:55] What are your what are your thoughts around that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think love [00:32:00] Of if you.

Payman Langroudi: Love conquers all.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Conquers all. If you love [00:32:05] and respect your partner, that would never come into question. [00:32:10]

Payman Langroudi: But you do get my point.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:32:15] I mean I mean, okay. Love is all well and good, but tactically. In [00:32:20] a relationship where the woman is earning more than the man, what [00:32:25] should the woman do a little bit more or less of? To make that relationship work.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Just [00:32:30] be humble about it. Just look at it as [00:32:35] yourself. You’re treating yourself. You know it’s not a separate [00:32:40] human being from you. If that’s why you’re living together. And [00:32:45] by the.

Payman Langroudi: Way, also the way the law sees it. So tell me what happened. [00:32:50] What happened regarding that? Your divorce legally. [00:32:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened legally in Sweden? It went [00:33:00] really well.

Payman Langroudi: By the way. At this point you were just a student. You weren’t earning anything.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I wasn’t. [00:33:05] No. And it went really quickly. And, um, [00:33:10] the children stayed with me and they would go and see their father, um, [00:33:15] every couple of weeks and if, if anything, um, [00:33:20] but, um. Yeah, that that’s very easy in Sweden. [00:33:25] Um, it’s much more difficult [00:33:30] if you have got like here business together, houses together, [00:33:35] properties together.

Payman Langroudi: Which we’ll get to, I’m sure. Um, so then [00:33:40] you became a dentist?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Uneventfully. [00:33:45]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Who paid? Who paid? Did Sweden pay for that? Sweden. It’s free. [00:33:50]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Free? No, no. You get a student loan and [00:33:55] you just, um.

Payman Langroudi: Finish.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. Payback. I’m still paying it back. [00:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you became a dentist? Yes. How did that feel?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [00:34:05] felt great. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Must have felt.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Great.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing to go to the struggle of [00:34:10] all those things.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really hard because I had my two daughters. Um, [00:34:15] I didn’t sleep well because I had to study [00:34:20] night time early mornings. Because I had to take care of their school [00:34:25] work and take them to school, feed them their [00:34:30] clothing, and, you know, everything that a mother would do. Um, [00:34:35] so it was a good achievement for me. It was really [00:34:40] good. And I did it on my own. I didn’t have anyone to help me. And [00:34:45] and that’s. I am proud of myself doing [00:34:50] that should be.

Payman Langroudi: Do you now? I mean, now you’ve had your own daughters. They’ve got married. And [00:34:55] have they? Some of them. One of them, maybe. Someone got married? Yeah. You’ve had your own daughters. They’ve got married. [00:35:00] Maybe they’ve got children even. They have? Yes. Excellent. So do you have now some empathy with your [00:35:05] parents as far as as far as they were doing their best or something? [00:35:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: I do, I do. I had quite a resentment towards my, [00:35:15] my parents because I wasn’t happy in [00:35:20] my first marriage at all. And I had the resentment towards [00:35:25] my parents. And when I got my children, [00:35:30] I started to forgive my parents for what they [00:35:35] did. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So when it came to your [00:35:40] children having getting married, for instance, were you really sort of [00:35:45] trying to overcompensate and say, it’s completely up to you? I did, [00:35:50] I don’t want to say anything about it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think I did to him. My first [00:35:55] daughter got married, and, um, [00:36:00] I didn’t have anything to say about it because obviously she was brought up in Sweden. [00:36:05] Yeah. Freedom. And then UK again. Freedom. Westernised, [00:36:10] um, culture, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but it’s a funny thing. Okay. You didn’t have anything to say about [00:36:15] it, but, you know, what about what is being a parent if it’s not saying something? [00:36:20] Yeah. Like if, you know, people say, oh, I let my children do whatever they want to study themselves, [00:36:25] they can decide, all right, they’re 14 or [00:36:30] 17. They decide they’re not deciding. You still have to say something, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. I think you [00:36:35] are there to guide them and direct them. But then you have [00:36:40] to let them do their own mistakes, do their own trial. Yeah. [00:36:45] And find out about the life lessons for themselves. You [00:36:50] cannot hold their hands forever.

Payman Langroudi: I want to continue with the story, but I’m [00:36:55] also really interested in the relationship with the grandchild compared to a child. [00:37:00] Like what? Apart from the obvious. What else can you like? What can [00:37:05] you what? What can you tell me about the difference between a grandchild and a child?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [00:37:10] is amazing because you always compare them to their parents. [00:37:15] Really? Yes you do. And you remember? [00:37:20]

Payman Langroudi: They remind you. Remind you of their parents when they were kids?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. Really? Yeah. And it [00:37:25] is like they’re they’re more dear [00:37:30] than even your your children.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know that that I know. [00:37:35] And you don’t even get a hello anymore straight around me to my kids. [00:37:40] But but also, I think that the most beautiful thing about having children probably, [00:37:45] is that the relationship between your parent and your child.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. Solutely. It’s, [00:37:50] um. We, me and my two daughters. We have an amazing relationship [00:37:55] because I was really young when I got my first child, and [00:38:00] again, young when I got my second one. And because [00:38:05] they have seen my struggles through life [00:38:10] and they have always been with me and [00:38:15] I had to have them, um, safe in a safety always, [00:38:20] and drag them everywhere with myself. And so we [00:38:25] are very close.

Payman Langroudi: Are they dentists?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. And no. One of them is [00:38:30] a lawyer and the other one is working for [00:38:35] insurance in America.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not think then did you say dentist [00:38:40] or you were there? Was there any chance that they were.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Going to be? My first daughter hated [00:38:45] university school, So she [00:38:50] was really artistic and she went to be a very famous [00:38:55] hairdresser in, in my city, Norwich. [00:39:00] Then she fell in love with an American guy and she moved to America. And [00:39:05] then she fell pregnant. She was a [00:39:10] house mom, a housewife, and she [00:39:15] didn’t train to be an insurance, uh, broker [00:39:20] in America and working for medical insurance. [00:39:25] And, um, my second daughter, [00:39:30] um, she went to be, uh, a doctor [00:39:35] in medicine, and. But she came [00:39:40] back from America. She went to America to study, and, um, [00:39:45] she came back and said, do you know, mom, I will study this medicine [00:39:50] and I will graduate. I get my license, I will give it to you, [00:39:55] but it is not for me. I said, [00:40:00] no, you don’t have to study. You don’t have to struggle. You [00:40:05] study what you want to, but you need to study something. And [00:40:10] she said, okay, I go down [00:40:15] the road of being a lawyer. So she studied really hard and [00:40:20] very successful. And she now. [00:40:25]

Payman Langroudi: Was a corporate.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Lawyer. Yes, for American Firm. Well, for a few [00:40:30] years. And, um, she worked really hard. There [00:40:35] was really long hours up to morning deadlines. Yeah. [00:40:40] So she was fed up with the corporate life. [00:40:45] Yeah. Um. And now she has opened her own business. [00:40:50] Dog grooming and dog care business in, um, [00:40:55] Battersea in London.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Thriving. [00:41:00]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Amazing. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So then what happened next in your in your Dental career, then [00:41:05] you became a dentist.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I qualified, um, 97, and [00:41:10] there was no work for me in Sweden.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, there were too many dentists.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Too [00:41:15] many dentists. So that’s why so many? Yeah. In UK. Yeah. And at that time, [00:41:20] UK had a shortage of dentists. So, um, I came to [00:41:25] UK and I started working in Norwich as [00:41:30] an associate. Um, how did you end.

Payman Langroudi: Up in Norwich? Because that’s where you got [00:41:35] the job? Yes.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And I came first for an interview in, [00:41:40] in a few cities, obviously, Beccles and Beccles and Norwich and Norwich. [00:41:45] I was accepted as an associate and I liked the [00:41:50] practice and it was a smaller city. Being a single [00:41:55] mom with two children, two daughters, I didn’t want to move to bigger cities [00:42:00] and to have a better control of bringing up my children. [00:42:05] And so I chose. I chose to be in Norwich. And yeah, [00:42:10] I started working and it was really hard for.

Payman Langroudi: Was that the [00:42:15] first time you’d worked as a dentist was in the UK? Yes. Oh, so you didn’t work at all in Sweden? [00:42:20] No. Did you have. You didn’t have to vote though.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In Sweden. Yeah, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [00:42:25] you have. You didn’t have to when you came here.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In here. No, no. You just registered [00:42:30] with the NHS. That was mixed practice.

Payman Langroudi: So did you find that very [00:42:35] third world compared to what you must, must have compared to university?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was completely different. [00:42:40] Yes. Compared to Swedish.

Payman Langroudi: System. Plus you were in the [00:42:45] university there? Yes. So then. So then how many years did you stick at that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Uh, two and a half years. [00:42:50] I was an associate. And together with [00:42:55] the ex-partner, who was my [00:43:00] business partner as well, we started this practice in [00:43:05] Norwich. Yes. Yeah. Squad.

Payman Langroudi: 2000.

Fariba Zolfaghari: In year 2000, [00:43:10] with one surgery. Started with one surgery.

Payman Langroudi: So this. This [00:43:15] partner though was who?

Fariba Zolfaghari: This partner was the [00:43:20] brother of the owner of the practice. I [00:43:25] worked as an associate. Oh. So, um, [00:43:30] we got introduced and we [00:43:35] started to date and liked each other [00:43:40] and started to planning a life together. And [00:43:45] um, yeah, we then started living together and decided, [00:43:50] um, that obviously he had a business in Sweden. He was [00:43:55] also living in Sweden and moved to UK.

Payman Langroudi: Was he a dentist?

Fariba Zolfaghari: He wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: No. Okay. [00:44:00] So he said, let’s open a practice. The two of.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Us. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And a squat [00:44:05] practice at that? Yeah. Quite difficult idea. Very difficult. On purpose or by mistake. Did [00:44:10] you know what you were getting yourself into? No. So you just went, like, let’s open a brand new business. That optimism [00:44:15] of.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Entrepreneurship.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I was never in, um, [00:44:20] to opening my own practice that early of my career. [00:44:25] He was into it, but he was into it, and obviously I was with [00:44:30] him. Yeah. Um. And I said yes.

Payman Langroudi: How did you feel? Like scared or excited [00:44:35] or both.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very Get a lot of investment. [00:44:40] Yeah. Um. Very scared.

Payman Langroudi: Whether there’s money you’d saved all the way through, like those [00:44:45] as a dentist and all that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes, absolutely. And, uh, [00:44:50] very scared to begin with. Didn’t know what’s going to happen with people in that, [00:44:55] uh, village is going to accept me as a new dentist [00:45:00] coming into their community.

Payman Langroudi: Is it kind of on the outskirts of Norwich?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. That’s right. [00:45:05]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. But, uh. Found the place.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Found the place.

Payman Langroudi: Did the planning. [00:45:10]

Fariba Zolfaghari: And all the planning.

Payman Langroudi: Brought in the.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Equipment?

Payman Langroudi: Yes, absolutely. It’s a pretty place. I’ve seen pictures. [00:45:15] It’s a pretty.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Place. It’s beautiful now. It’s beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t purpose built, [00:45:20] was it? Was it? It almost looks purpose built. Like. It doesn’t look like the normal thing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was a bungalow.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:45:25] it was a bungalow.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was a bungalow that we converted. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: And so how many chairs was it [00:45:30] on? That? Was it one chair?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Just one surgery for me to start with.

Payman Langroudi: So, [00:45:35] are you still in the same building?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I am still in the same building, but.

Payman Langroudi: Had scope to turn to eight. [00:45:40] Were you thinking about growing?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. As the year went [00:45:45] and my patient base grew and my workload was [00:45:50] getting heavier, then we decided to open one surgery after one surgery [00:45:55] each year. Up to now that is eight surgeries [00:46:00] in the same building. And [00:46:05] it was really hard.

Payman Langroudi: And obviously we were sinking every penny [00:46:10] back into it in a way.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: To get it, to get it to grow like.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Where, where it is. [00:46:15] And I still do, I still do, I still.

Payman Langroudi: Do, I still do. So then at what point was there [00:46:20] an issue with this guy? How many how many chairs in. So [00:46:25] were you eight chairs in.

Fariba Zolfaghari: We are eight chairs in. Um, [00:46:30] year 2013. December. [00:46:35]

Payman Langroudi: 13 years into the practice.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. [00:46:40] I had an awakening because [00:46:45] I was living with a narcissistic person, [00:46:50] controlling, abusing mentally and emotionally. And [00:46:55] to begin with, physically. Yeah. Um, [00:47:00] for over that period of time between 99 [00:47:05] to the end of 2013. [00:47:10] And it was nothing left of me. Um, [00:47:15] emotionally, I was like, so depressed. [00:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: And these days we call it narcissism and all that. But back then, [00:47:25] what were you thinking? What was you weren’t thinking? He’s a narcissistic personality. No. You kind of blaming yourself [00:47:30] or these sort of Of things.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Very controlling, very controlling, [00:47:35] and to the point that I wasn’t even allowed to go [00:47:40] and visit my sisters. Oh, this is.

Payman Langroudi: Going to sound like a really [00:47:45] stupid question. Yeah, but do you think there’s something about you that attracts controlling?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [00:47:50] think so. Go on. My childhood. Really? [00:47:55] My childhood. My father was very [00:48:00] old fashioned man, and [00:48:05] he was abusive towards my mum and my brother. And [00:48:10] I think something must have. I have blocked out quite a lot from my [00:48:15] childhood at that time, living with my own parents. And [00:48:20] I think something from that time that is in here [00:48:25] that has caused that I attract in these people. [00:48:30] Paper.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: So what [00:48:35] gave you the sort of. Not the strength, but, like, what was the the stimulus [00:48:40] for you thinking? You said awakening. What was it? What was that moment? What was.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It? That [00:48:45] moment? The veil was going to be taken [00:48:50] away from, lifted, lifted from me, and everything [00:48:55] was going to be revealed. And I knew that my [00:49:00] soul was suffering. I was crying within. [00:49:05] But no one knew what was happening with me. [00:49:10] But I was not happy inside because I [00:49:15] sacrificed everything in life for somebody who repeatedly [00:49:20] cheated on me, repeatedly stole from me, repeatedly [00:49:25] controlling in me. Name calling. And [00:49:30] not even letting my own [00:49:35] family. Being welcomed to my house, you know. So [00:49:40] at the end, there was just a wall. And I started to [00:49:45] study about this kind of personality. And [00:49:50] the name of narcissistic personality came up. And and [00:49:55] I then searched to see how to deal with this. One [00:50:00] day I had to do it. I [00:50:05] just took my suitcase. You had enough, I had enough. There was nothing left. [00:50:10] Nothing left because he was cheating at the same time, [00:50:15] right before I left. Um. And I [00:50:20] had found out. But he denied it, and that [00:50:25] was it. I had enough, and I took my [00:50:30] suitcase, my dogs and I went. And [00:50:35] I said to my family, even if [00:50:40] I have to lose everything, I will start again. I [00:50:45] do not want this life with.

Payman Langroudi: Him, with the kids grown up by this.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Time. [00:50:50] Yes. So my youngest one at that time lived [00:50:55] in London, going to college, university and my oldest one [00:51:00] of obesity. She was married in America. So they were in safe places.

Payman Langroudi: So. [00:51:05] I [00:51:10] mean, it’s a scary moment, right, to to make a change [00:51:15] like that. But but also like a moment that sort of gives you energy to [00:51:20] be become yourself, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Become you to find yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Find yourself. Here. Um, [00:51:25] how did it go? What happened next?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So [00:51:30] then I was homeless, and I had to [00:51:35] commute in between, um, holiday cottages until [00:51:40] I found a house where I could have my dogs [00:51:45] with me. I had three dogs at that time, and it was [00:51:50] a countryside about 4 to 5 minutes away from [00:51:55] the practice. And I lived there for about a year. [00:52:00] And then they wanted their house back, um, [00:52:05] for certain reasons. Grandma. Their their mother. [00:52:10] So then I decided, okay, I need to also live [00:52:15] closer to the, um, practice then, uh, [00:52:20] I looked for a room share. But [00:52:25] I couldn’t have my dogs, so I had to get my [00:52:30] two Lhasa apsos that I had for 13 [00:52:35] years to give them up. And that day, [00:52:40] me and my daughter. It [00:52:45] was like somebody dead. Somebody died. [00:52:50] It was. It was like we lost. One [00:52:55] of our family. Mom or dad? And we were both [00:53:00] devastated that I had to do this to survive. You know, I [00:53:05] had to still be living somewhere. And. And one of my dogs, [00:53:10] um, was living with one of my friend [00:53:15] who kindly took care of him. And, Yes. [00:53:20] So I lived in that house for another shared [00:53:25] house for another year. And then that lady wanted [00:53:30] the room back after a year. And how [00:53:35] did you feel?

Payman Langroudi: Did you feel like a failure or something? How did you feel at [00:53:40] that point? You know, it’s a strange.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really lonely. [00:53:45] Yeah. Even though if I had, um, my family, [00:53:50] sisters and good supportive system, I [00:53:55] really felt lonely. And I felt from having everything. [00:54:00] Yeah. Doing, um, everything that I wanted. [00:54:05] I had a beautiful car, beautiful house, um, many properties. [00:54:10] And my practice obviously growing nicely, [00:54:15] I felt homeless, I felt lonely. [00:54:20] I felt that there is no [00:54:25] end to this. And. But I still didn’t want to go back to [00:54:30] how I lived before. In a way, [00:54:35] I was finding myself back to myself. And [00:54:40] that time was good because it gave me a lot of lonely [00:54:45] time. Alone time to find myself.

Payman Langroudi: Process everything.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Process [00:54:50] everything. Why I did accept. I did put up with [00:54:55] this and trying to find myself questioning myself. And [00:55:00] um, yeah, it was really, really hard. Really hard. [00:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what happened to the arrangements regarding the practice or the [00:55:10] properties? And were you continuing to work as in the practice during this period [00:55:15] as well?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I did, Um, continue working [00:55:20] as I did usual. But unfortunately, because, um, [00:55:25] when you’re dealing with the lawyers, you have to pay in advance. [00:55:30] And I wasn’t allowed to withdraw from the practice because [00:55:35] of what happened. And I had to work in other practices [00:55:40] as an associate. And they all said, why? Why do [00:55:45] you do that? And I had to say, what’s going on in my life? And I needed money. I needed [00:55:50] to work to provide for the law.

Payman Langroudi: Lawyers are [00:55:55] expensive.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Expenses. And, uh, [00:56:00] to a point that, um, he I thought that [00:56:05] is it. We’re going to go through the legal. Process [00:56:10] and we separate, um, in calm and peace. [00:56:15] But no, he wouldn’t stop.

Payman Langroudi: Well, narcissist [00:56:20] doesn’t like being shown up, right? It’s one of the one of the features of being [00:56:25] a narcissist that you explode if they’re sort of showing up. Um, [00:56:30] but it’s a difficult thing. The law is a ridiculous thing, really, because [00:56:35] at the time, where you need it most, right? Is where [00:56:40] you can’t afford to hire the best lawyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, it’s when you’re [00:56:45] financially in trouble that you need the best lawyer, but the best lawyer is so expensive that. [00:56:50] And if anyone hasn’t been in a legal situation, if you ever get [00:56:55] into a legal situation, the truth will not come out because it’s a legal situation that that’s [00:57:00] not the case at all. No more, I’d say. I mean, just on a [00:57:05] stupid level. I would say the person with the better lawyer will win. As simple as that, you [00:57:10] know? Yes. Uh, some people say. Yeah, always make sure your lawyer comes from a bigger firm [00:57:15] than the the the opposition’s. Yeah. Absolutely true.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely true. [00:57:20] Yes, I agree with that 100%.

Payman Langroudi: So a nightmare situation. And so what happened financially?

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened [00:57:25] financially? Um, it was really I was in [00:57:30] debt to my lawyers. Um, I still carried on working [00:57:35] as hard as I could. Um. And pay.

Payman Langroudi: Did you end up with half of [00:57:40] the practice?

Fariba Zolfaghari: What happened? So that’s, um, [00:57:45] when this legal process were going on. Um, [00:57:50] as I said, it was on the rock bottom. The rock bottom [00:57:55] came back again with him [00:58:00] wanting to take me to the GDC. Oh, man. [00:58:05] So he and [00:58:10] his sister Falsified records. Wow. [00:58:15] Presented it to the GDC. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Like what? What did they [00:58:20] say?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So one of them is a lot of accusations. [00:58:25] It was a big accusation. Obviously, they [00:58:30] were starting from when I started as an associate in that [00:58:35] other practice where his sister was the owner. And [00:58:40] then it carried on from when we opened my own practice. It [00:58:45] was a book of accusations, [00:58:50] um, the falsification of the records where they [00:58:55] had a, you know, one of those Brown record. Yeah. [00:59:00] Pre-computer. Yes. Nhs card. Nhs cards? Yeah. [00:59:05] They presented it full page. H. And [00:59:10] then I had to prove that this is not [00:59:15] my handwriting, because I didn’t treat him in that practice. I treated him [00:59:20] in my own practice. I had to go back to the nurse [00:59:25] that I had at that time, who is actually [00:59:30] a good friend of mine, and show [00:59:35] her the record. And she said, this is [00:59:40] written with one pen. And [00:59:45] one handwriting. Firstly, this [00:59:50] is not my handwriting. Secondly, how on earth [00:59:55] can one practice have all of this record [01:00:00] written during a couple of years with one pen? Yeah. [01:00:05] So David wrote that Without evidence. But [01:00:10] she got away with that. She was never [01:00:15] questioned by the GDC.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny situation, isn’t it? It’s a funny [01:00:20] situation. This is the sister of your ex?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so [01:00:25] overall, the GDC nightmare lasted. How long?

Fariba Zolfaghari: 18 months.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:00:30] did you manage to prove everything?

Fariba Zolfaghari: 18 months. On the court hearing after [01:00:35] I brought many, many evidence, um, to [01:00:40] be witnessed on like zoom and the GDC [01:00:45] said to him that you are after discrediting this [01:00:50] lady. So you declared me innocent. [01:00:55] Wow. And he didn’t get anything?

Payman Langroudi: Nothing came of [01:01:00] nothing for him.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Nothing? Nothing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a silly system, really.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Nothing. 18 [01:01:05] Months and you can worry. You can imagine a [01:01:10] booklet that you have of accusations. So you must.

Payman Langroudi: Have like a whole mass [01:01:15] of papers on this.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I did, and I had a very good [01:01:20] barrister, a very good barrister, and took all [01:01:25] the words out and proved the innocence.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:01:30] the GDC thing got out of the way. You must have felt so much lighter.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I did, [01:01:35] and I did.

Payman Langroudi: Found yourself for a short time I thought it was all going to get great. [01:01:40] Now go on.

Fariba Zolfaghari: For a short time. I was relieved and I [01:01:45] thought, okay, we need to get rid of all of this legal [01:01:50] process going on with the properties, the business shareholders [01:01:55] and everything that was going with [01:02:00] it. Um, there was a demand for a [01:02:05] partial payment for his share of the business because he [01:02:10] was a shareholder and which my lawyer [01:02:15] unfortunately ignored. And therefore it [01:02:20] was a court hearing about that [01:02:25] payment. And my lawyer said to me, it [01:02:30] won’t go anywhere because you are asset rich and you are waiting [01:02:35] for everything to be sold to pay him for his share. And [01:02:40] so it won’t go anywhere, so do not worry. It [01:02:45] was 1:00 the court hearing and he said, you don’t [01:02:50] need to come. I’ll go and represent you. 1:00 120 [01:02:55] he called me. I was at work lunchtime [01:03:00] and he said, I’m sorry, Fariba, I [01:03:05] couldn’t do anything. You were declared bankrupt.

Payman Langroudi: Well. [01:03:10] What did it practically mean? [01:03:15] What did that mean?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I didn’t know what it meant at that [01:03:20] time, but it means that you [01:03:25] no longer are allowed to be in that premises and work [01:03:30] as a director, as a dentist in that practice. And you’re losing [01:03:35] everything that you have. You have to give up every everything you [01:03:40] have assets wise.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Fariba Zolfaghari: So [01:03:45] that was. The [01:03:50] moment that within just 20 minutes, [01:03:55] your life. Upside [01:04:00] Sundown completely. You lose everything. I lost everything just [01:04:05] 20 minutes after the show.

Payman Langroudi: Because every [01:04:10] contract says on it. If in the event of bankruptcy, everything’s all the bets are off. So [01:04:15] go on. What happened then? What happened?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So the whole process, [01:04:20] um, I had to go to have a official receiver. Um, [01:04:25] and I had to go and interview with her and explain what [01:04:30] has happened, and, and that I, um, unfortunately, if my [01:04:35] lawyer before the judge make the declaration [01:04:40] called me and said, can you afford to pay this amount of money [01:04:45] because otherwise they’re going to declare you bankrupt? I would have [01:04:50] I had the money, I could have paid it. And I think the [01:04:55] official receivers, they she was on the pressure [01:05:00] on the other side. They wanted to put everything onto a trust, and [01:05:05] that would have been the end of everything. She refused. [01:05:10] Wow. Because I said to her that I’m going to find [01:05:15] this money because I was not allowed to access my account [01:05:20] anymore any longer. And I begged [01:05:25] her and asked her to give me a little bit of time to find this money. Finally, [01:05:30] after [01:05:35] trying me and my partner trying different [01:05:40] people, they come to my mind that [01:05:45] I need to reach to one of my patients who I [01:05:50] knew for a long, long time and explain [01:05:55] what has happened to me and I needed £200,000. [01:06:00]

Payman Langroudi: Who was he? A rich guy?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: What did you say? Did you?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I explained. Explain what?

Payman Langroudi: You went for [01:06:10] a coffee? No. During the examination.

Fariba Zolfaghari: On [01:06:15] the phone first. Well. And then we met [01:06:20] him with my partner face to face, obviously. And the [01:06:25] lawyer? Because he accepted on the phone. And then we arranged with the [01:06:30] lawyer to have a written contract, obviously, that he is lending me the money [01:06:35] that I had to return when within a certain date, which [01:06:40] we signed. And after three months, [01:06:45] I managed to get the money and rescind [01:06:50] the bankruptcy. Wow. And the [01:06:55] judge who dealt with the bankruptcy, [01:07:00] rescinding the bankruptcy, said to me, [01:07:05] this should have never happened.

Payman Langroudi: Your lawyer was rubbish.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Like I just said, yes, I’ve been in that situation too.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Not [01:07:15] one of the cheapest.

Payman Langroudi: No no, no. Just not the one. The best.

Fariba Zolfaghari: One of the. Not one of the best.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:20] It’s funny, man. It’s a it’s a it’s a terrible, terrible, [01:07:25] terrible story. Up to that point. It’s a terrible story up to that point. [01:07:30] But so now that answers the the initial question I asked about why [01:07:35] you’re so busy getting good because you’ve been through these stresses to [01:07:40] get to the point. So then okay, so now you had your assets [01:07:45] again or half of your assets again.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. Um, so everything [01:07:50] went back to the usual thing. The obviously 5,050% [01:07:55] of everything had to go to him or I had to [01:08:00] buy him out.

Payman Langroudi: So you did you let him have the houses or whatever, and you kept [01:08:05] the practice, whatever it was? Yes. Then you must have felt amazing right at this point.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [01:08:10] was amazing. It was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Fantastic.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Finally, [01:08:15] after seven years. What’s that?

Payman Langroudi: 2014?

Fariba Zolfaghari: That was, [01:08:20] um, from it took 20. From 2014 to [01:08:25] 2019.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. [01:08:30] So then 2019 Covid 19 Covid happened. [01:08:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Covid happened.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Yes.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And I had to deal with that as well.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:08:40] then there was the growth after Covid. Exactly. Which was amazing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:08:45] For all of us. What a story. What a story. A beautiful story [01:08:50] in a way. Um, but the resilience. Really, really, really look up [01:08:55] to you. Now let’s talk about your current practice. What is it? What’s the setup?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Is [01:09:00] a private practice. We converted to private from [01:09:05] being a mixed dental practice. Um, this year.

Payman Langroudi: Or this year? [01:09:10] This year? Really? Congratulations.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you. And everyone [01:09:15] is thriving and practices.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have someone hold your hand? Yes. [01:09:20] What? Practice. Practice plan.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Practice plan.

Payman Langroudi: And so they sort of put letters. [01:09:25]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. They do.

Payman Langroudi: How to talk to patients? Yes. And then did you have a number [01:09:30] of patients that you had to keep and the number that if they left you’d be okay. And that. [01:09:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Sort of. That’s right. There were all these calculations going on.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened was the actual situation [01:09:40] better than.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Much better than I.

Payman Langroudi: Thought. So your patients were understanding [01:09:45] of it. And so what would be your tips? What would be your top tip regarding this [01:09:50] the subject, there must have been an element of nervousness, right? Of going fully private. What [01:09:55] will people say? What will the staff say? Tell me. Give me tips.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was really hard [01:10:00] for me, obviously, to take that decision and take the leap [01:10:05] of faith and believe and trust that [01:10:10] practice over 24 years had [01:10:15] been established and people knew about our ethos of [01:10:20] the practice, how it’s run, it’s a family practice. Yeah. And [01:10:25] that they would want to stay [01:10:30] with the practice that they have been. The children have been with us for many, [01:10:35] many years, but it was a scary and practice [01:10:40] plan helped us to convert. And, um, [01:10:45] every day, every moment I looked at the amount of people who [01:10:50] signed up, and it grew and grew. And to the [01:10:55] final point that we started January all being private. [01:11:00] It was a scary. Some people obviously didn’t like it because as [01:11:05] I said this, 20 fours of being NHS mixed practice. [01:11:10] You can imagine the amount of patients we had. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you convince the [01:11:15] staff.

Fariba Zolfaghari: They were happy?

Payman Langroudi: Every part of the staff bought in before [01:11:20] you made the announcement?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes, they were all on board.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:11:25] practice plan tell you to do that? Or was that instinctively you knew that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, no, I knew that they [01:11:30] would, because there would.

Payman Langroudi: Be they could see what it was like in the mixed system. [01:11:35] Right? Yeah.

Fariba Zolfaghari: They would benefit with that. Obviously they knew that it would be [01:11:40] a better working environment, working environment, wages, [01:11:45] Benefits and calm environment. You know, NHS [01:11:50] practices can be really stressful and chaotic, especially [01:11:55] a large practice with a large contract that we had.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:12:00] and so you the giving up of that contract, like what amount of money was that contract [01:12:05] per year?

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was, uh, almost over £1 million. [01:12:10]

Payman Langroudi: That must have been the scary bit, right? It was the where’s this million pounds going to come from [01:12:15] to pay everyone and.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So, uh, we [01:12:20] already had a lot of private, I guess.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. Not a lot. [01:12:25]

Payman Langroudi: Not a lot. So were you planning, knowing that you were [01:12:30] going to lose the million? Were you planning that you were going to expand private? Do [01:12:35] marketing? What were you planning?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Marketing obviously helped [01:12:40] a lot. And just Explaining [01:12:45] for the patients what it entails. If they signed up for [01:12:50] practice plan because they came and sat in the practice. People [01:12:55] were queuing to sign up, you know, and.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:13:00] and I mean, I haven’t been part of it for a long time, but practice plan is that just [01:13:05] they pay monthly and they get exams and scale.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then everything else, they pay, [01:13:10] but they get a discount.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. They they get two check-ups and they get the [01:13:15] it’s different plans and one to, uh, you can choose to [01:13:20] have four times a year hygienist.

Payman Langroudi: And did you give option [01:13:25] that option and the pay as you go option as well. Well or did you just push everyone [01:13:30] into insurance?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Exactly. We wanted everyone to sign [01:13:35] for the practice plan for a membership because.

Payman Langroudi: That keeps them stuck to [01:13:40] you.

Fariba Zolfaghari: That’s right. And that is a monthly regular income that you could. [01:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: Relax.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Pandemic. You could rely on [01:13:50] every month, you know. Oh, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you had a great NHS time during the pandemic. That must have been [01:13:55] fun. Um, funny. Funny. I’m talking about financially.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It [01:14:00] was. It was.

Payman Langroudi: That’s when the private practice really suffered, right?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I know it was okay [01:14:05] for us. Luckily, um, because we were able to pay our dentists [01:14:10] and pay wages for the employees and get [01:14:15] the practice pay for all the commitments that we had, [01:14:20] um, and keep, keep us going.

Payman Langroudi: So now, in [01:14:25] the, in this private environment, what are you offering? What are the services are [01:14:30] you doing?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Implants are you doing are offering implants? Um. [01:14:35]

Payman Langroudi: Is that is that, you know?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, no, I have got an implant ologist. Who [01:14:40] is very good and she provides implant [01:14:45] and author. Author is myself, Invisalign, Invisalign [01:14:50] in myself and cosmetic dentistry and a full [01:14:55] mouth rehabilitation. Is that you? Yeah. That’s me.

Payman Langroudi: So have you trained? You’ve. Obviously. [01:15:00] You’ve been going to courses. Yeah.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, for many, many years. Yeah, yeah. And, [01:15:05] uh, obviously we still have got good general dentists [01:15:10] at the practice, and I now just take [01:15:15] internal referrals only. So I don’t do any [01:15:20] of general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing Invisalign the whole time?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Invisalign and [01:15:25] cosmetic dentistry. I do also indoor.

Payman Langroudi: You do your own [01:15:30] indoor?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. God.

Payman Langroudi: Well done. Well done.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I love it.

Payman Langroudi: Which [01:15:35] bit do you hate? Which treatment do you hate? What do you do you hate?

Fariba Zolfaghari: And what [01:15:40] do. What do I hate? Yeah. I don’t hate any of blood. I [01:15:45] don’t mind the blood, but I wouldn’t like to [01:15:50] do implant.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But blood. I mean, I don’t mind wisdom teeth and stuff like that, so.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:15:55] don’t do that.

Payman Langroudi: No flaps. Do you ever make a flap?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. I have got [01:16:00] a water laser. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Have you? Yes. Oh. Have you?

Fariba Zolfaghari: So, um, anything [01:16:05] that needs.

Payman Langroudi: And from the ortho perspective, my [01:16:10] wife does a lot of Invisalign as well. And, you know, everyone’s trying to do [01:16:15] a lot of aligners, right? It’s a funny situation insomuch as now we’re [01:16:20] doing it ourselves with generalists are doing doing it ourselves. But if you’re [01:16:25] so specialised in on it that you’re getting internal referrals. What was your ortho education? [01:16:30] I mean, did you have a strong base to start with in Sweden compared to here? And then [01:16:35] you kept going somehow or. No.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No, I, I am, um, [01:16:40] qualified master’s degree in orthodontics from Warwick University. [01:16:45] Oh, you did that in UK? Yeah. And currently I’m doing a diploma in [01:16:50] aligner in Aligner Dental Academy. [01:16:55] A diploma in that. So I have been using [01:17:00] fixed orthodontics since 2010. Since then. [01:17:05] Since then. But since.

Payman Langroudi: 2026 months. Smiles. Type or [01:17:10] actual? Real fix. Actual. So where did you learn how to do that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Warwick Warwick.

Payman Langroudi: University. [01:17:15] Oh, is your Warwick thing was before that? Yes. Oh I see, I see. I did that too. [01:17:20] But the guy who does our, um, composite lecturing. He did.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, I know he’s he’s amazing. [01:17:25] And, um, so I used to do the fixed [01:17:30] with, um, a system American system. Damon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Damon. [01:17:35] Cue system. And since 2020, I started with Invisalign.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:17:40] really? So quite late compared to.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, but I used to do clear step, if you remember.

Payman Langroudi: I remember [01:17:45] clear step.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. It didn’t last very long. Um, [01:17:50] and once they stopped, obviously I stopped and I [01:17:55] carried on with the fix still. And, uh, since 2020, um, [01:18:00] obviously, I bought Itero. And then since then, um, [01:18:05] Invisalign. Invisalign started since then.

Payman Langroudi: And so [01:18:10] the clinicians is it’s you. And you said the general [01:18:15] associates.

Fariba Zolfaghari: They are. How many.

Payman Langroudi: Humans? How many humans? [01:18:20]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Uh, we are eight of us. So it’s. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: How many humans? How many. [01:18:25]

Fariba Zolfaghari: People? How many people of dentists, you mean? No, people. People. I would say [01:18:30] I have got around about That 1516 employee [01:18:35] and dentist run about seven.

Payman Langroudi: Big [01:18:40] practice.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Is a big.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. A lot going on.

Fariba Zolfaghari: A lot going.

Payman Langroudi: Manager.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I’ve [01:18:45] got two.

Payman Langroudi: Two and opening hours.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Monday to Friday, 830 [01:18:50] to 530.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you haven’t done the 8 to 2. 2 to 8.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Exactly. [01:18:55] We are going to start with that next. Next year. Yeah. Because [01:19:00] I think it will benefit the practice because some of the [01:19:05] patients are working and dealing with the school run and children. So [01:19:10] it’s more convenient to come in the evening rather than taking [01:19:15] a day off or a morning off.

Payman Langroudi: And do you do things like facial aesthetics?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:19:20] used to.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t like it?

Fariba Zolfaghari: No.

Payman Langroudi: Someone else doesn’t do it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes, [01:19:25] I have got.

Payman Langroudi: Someone doing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It. Two associates of mine who do [01:19:30] that.

Payman Langroudi: So from a growth perspective, like as far as like what other services [01:19:35] you might start, what’s on your list? Because on my list, if I was in [01:19:40] your situation, my next thing that I would try and open up is kids [01:19:45] Private Ortho.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Well, it’s open at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: You do a lot. [01:19:50]

Fariba Zolfaghari: No.

Payman Langroudi: So I think kids private ortho is a big growth area. [01:19:55] Big growth area.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is. But I think people are [01:20:00] still adamant to be referred as an NHS to get it [01:20:05] free of charge.

Payman Langroudi: So many, many don’t qualify number one. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s the first thing. The [01:20:10] ones who do qualify, it takes time. Yeah. Yeah. And you’ve had kids. You’ve [01:20:15] had kids. You just. You had a kid even though you didn’t want to have a kid. Because for the other kid. Yeah. [01:20:20] Yeah. So like, what I was saying is like, it’s just [01:20:25] it’s just such an easy win. It’s such an easy win. And one thing you’ve got to Remember, [01:20:30] one thing I’ve got to keep remembering as well is it doesn’t take that many kids [01:20:35] to private Ortho’s here to get one orthodontist very [01:20:40] busy. It’s a very interesting idea that, you know. How many do you need? Yeah. [01:20:45] 100. 100 people?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, probably. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If 100 [01:20:50] children came to your clinic at £4,000 each. Yeah. That’s [01:20:55] £400,000 of ortho. Yeah. And convincing 100 people to [01:21:00] have have it done right. Yeah. Not hard. Not hard. It really is. I [01:21:05] just really think that’s a massive growth area.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Something to think about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then with adds [01:21:10] my, my partner Prav my partner on the podcast Prav, he does those targets [01:21:15] ads around the private schools within five mile radius of people [01:21:20] who earn over £250,000 or whatever as a, as a couple. Yeah. And only [01:21:25] those people see the ads. You know, it’s. Oh, wow. But you know what I mean. In [01:21:30] Norwich, there is a guy who owns the shopping centre, [01:21:35] and there’s a guy who owns the Mercedes showroom, and there’s the guy who owns a chain of [01:21:40] Greek restaurants, and there’s the guy who you only need 100 of those [01:21:45] to send you their kids and grandkids.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: For for [01:21:50] a brilliant business. You know, a brilliant business. What’s on your radar as far as you know, the next [01:21:55] thing you want to do. I guess there’s no more space to add any more chairs.

Fariba Zolfaghari: There isn’t, I’m afraid. [01:22:00]

Payman Langroudi: No. Are you thinking of a second one?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Um, no.

Payman Langroudi: No [01:22:05] one perfect place. You’re trying to make it perfect.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think. Exactly. [01:22:10] I tried to get that practice to be. Obviously it is [01:22:15] at the moment. It’s one of the best practices in the whole Norfolk. Um, we [01:22:20] actually one of the few practices that are fully digital. [01:22:25] Are you? And that’s one of my passions, digital dentistry [01:22:30] and the whole.

Payman Langroudi: Are you good with computers?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes. That’s different. Yes, I do [01:22:35] exocad design. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Computers in general dentistry. [01:22:40]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Are very good.

Payman Langroudi: Yes, that’s different, isn’t it? You don’t see many, many ladies from from our generation? [01:22:45] No I know. Good at computers.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I know, I know that that’s one thing that I [01:22:50] would like to teach a lot of younger women, especially [01:22:55] dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a good point.

Fariba Zolfaghari: To get in to digital dentistry, because [01:23:00] a lot of, uh, women nervousness around nervous about digital, [01:23:05] digital and technology. And it’s very easy, [01:23:10] very easy.

Payman Langroudi: So have you thought about teaching?

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes I have.

Payman Langroudi: Have you done [01:23:15] teaching? No I.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Haven’t. No, I would love to at one point.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely. [01:23:20] I think I think you’d be good at it. I think you’d be good at it. Um, because [01:23:25] I don’t know, sometimes with teaching or with mentoring in general. Yeah, there’s there’s [01:23:30] that. I wish there was someone like me in my life back [01:23:35] then. Back then to teach, you know, the big element of that. It’s a big, big element of that. [01:23:40] And, you know, you can think of the types of people you wanted around to to help you out [01:23:45] back then, rather than working it all out yourself. Yes. There must have been. I mean, tell me about this. I’m quite interested [01:23:50] in this here. Your partner that you divorced with with [01:23:55] in the business. There must have been bits that he was doing that you had no idea about. [01:24:00] I don’t mean bad bits, just bits of running, bits of raising money, bits of decorating. [01:24:05] What was he doing? That knowledge that he. Maintenance.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Maintenance. That’s [01:24:10] it.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? He wasn’t doing finance or I don’t know. [01:24:15]

Fariba Zolfaghari: We had that content and everything was given [01:24:20] handed over. Handed over to accountant. Content. He was just doing maintenance.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:24:25] all. Because, you know, I thought, oh, maybe he was had a big part in the business. And then you [01:24:30] lost that knowledge. No, no. Good. [01:24:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me. Tell me about inspiring [01:24:40] staff. I mean, I’ve talked to you a few times and just. You’re good with people. You’re [01:24:45] good. You’re a good conversationalist. But it’s different talking to a friend or talking [01:24:50] to a colleague or a staff. What’s your what’s your learnings on that? Because, [01:24:55] you know, 24 years, 25 years of stuff.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Is [01:25:00] a difficult conversation dealing with [01:25:05] the staff. Um, I think the [01:25:10] quality to dealing with this stuff is, first [01:25:15] of all, to listen to this stuff. Yeah, listen to [01:25:20] their problems and then try to help them [01:25:25] about their where they’re lacking. Of their knowledge and [01:25:30] where they could support. Um, we could support [01:25:35] them in their learning. Um, in their working. Sometimes [01:25:40] it’s just the environment. Sometimes it’s just, um, bitterness about [01:25:45] each other. You know, it’s really hard. And, um, I think [01:25:50] from my point of view, I always try to listen to [01:25:55] my staff. And if I can do anything for them, [01:26:00] I will do it. But with regards to the [01:26:05] working environment, if there is anything that we can support [01:26:10] them with, we will do it as a team.

Payman Langroudi: I think you hit the nail [01:26:15] on the head when you when you said help them, support them. Absolutely. Because there’s [01:26:20] two different types of bosses. There’s the servant boss, which is [01:26:25] that one? Yeah. Or there’s the, you know, boss boss, where the staff are the servants and [01:26:30] and and I really I think it’s the biggest, the biggest point in leadership is [01:26:35] to be the servant of your people. It’s like you work for them, not [01:26:40] they work for you is the key point. The key point. And it’s difficult [01:26:45] sometimes. By the way, if you talk to my team, I’m sure they’ll say this saying that, but he’s in a bad [01:26:50] mood or whatever. Yeah. Um, but I think it’s a key point, man. I think it’s a key point in success as [01:26:55] a leader.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think you as a leader, you [01:27:00] have to train leaders.

Payman Langroudi: True.

Fariba Zolfaghari: And in [01:27:05] my practice, it’s not. This is [01:27:10] what I’m saying. You have to do it. We sit on [01:27:15] a round table and we brainstorm, and [01:27:20] then we make a decision as a team, and then we have a big [01:27:25] meeting if there is any changes. And we introduce that change and [01:27:30] then we ask for feedback.

Payman Langroudi: That seems like a feminine [01:27:35] way of doing it. It’s quite nice. It’s quite a nice thing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. It’s uh would you. [01:27:40]

Payman Langroudi: Agree with that, that it’s more a woman thing?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think it’s more democratic. [01:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing this, I feel like. I feel like it’s more of a, [01:27:50] you know, they say that, they say, oh, women work more with consensus, you know? [01:27:55] And at the same time, women also I come across lots who don’t want to put themselves [01:28:00] up to be a teacher. You know, there’s that whole question, why [01:28:05] aren’t there more women teachers? Yeah. And whatever else you want to say, there is this aspect of [01:28:10] women won’t ask. They’ll they’ll be happy to be asked, but [01:28:15] they won’t ask themselves.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You’re right. Absolutely. [01:28:20] You. You have to put yourself forward. Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:28:25] if it’s not, it’s not in the nature of women to do it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It’s not, I’m afraid. No, you’re absolutely [01:28:30] right.

Payman Langroudi: In the same way as it’s not in the nature of women to ask for a pay rise. I’ve noticed some [01:28:35] women. Some some some some women love it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I think nowadays they do. [01:28:40]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I mean, certainly in my experience with, [01:28:45] um, lady associates, dentists, [01:28:50] um, they are not shy about asking for [01:28:55] a raise. They’re not shy.

Payman Langroudi: I really worry about it, though, because we’ve got people here. [01:29:00] Yeah. And I always think about this a lot. It bothers me badly that [01:29:05] two people doing the same kind of job. You know, we’ve got six people doing sales, [01:29:10] let’s say two of them in that department. If one of them is asking and [01:29:15] one of them isn’t asking and it’s just waiting, the one who’s [01:29:20] waiting ends up losing. Yeah, and it pisses [01:29:25] me off a bit. Yeah, because it’s not in some people’s nature to ask. Number [01:29:30] one. Number two, I quite like that idea of I’m not going [01:29:35] to. I’m sure they’ll come to me. I quite like and yet that person gets penalised [01:29:40] here and doesn’t get the pay rises at enlightened. You know, I’ve seen I’ve noticed it over the years. [01:29:45] I’ve tried to try to change for that as well, but over the years people tend [01:29:50] to be the ones who get even in pay rises. It’s difficult. [01:29:55]

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is very hard.

Payman Langroudi: My team aren’t listening.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It is really hard [01:30:00] because not only that, that person will get [01:30:05] probably the raise, but also there are other [01:30:10] people with more qualification, more experience, who never [01:30:15] come forward to ask for the raise. But then again, if you [01:30:20] are a fair boss.

Payman Langroudi: You notice that.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Notice that and you bring it. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. All right. That’s what. [01:30:30] That’s what I’m struggling with, you know? Yeah. It’s been amazing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Because at the end of the [01:30:35] day, yeah they will hear it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. You know what? Another thing I struggle [01:30:40] with is experience counts sometimes more than merit.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Absolutely. [01:30:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but I don’t like it.

Fariba Zolfaghari: You don’t like it?

Payman Langroudi: No. I’m in the same way. You’re talking about [01:30:50] promotions, pay rises and all that. Pay rises because of the fact that you have been [01:30:55] there longer. Yeah. There’s something nice about staying [01:31:00] somewhere. Yeah. It is. But we’ve been guilty of this in the past of giving people pay rises just [01:31:05] for being there, and then other people who join later, Not [01:31:10] giving them huge pay rises because they just got here, you know. So it’s [01:31:15] almost like an experience versus merit pay rise. And I’m trying to change that though. I’m [01:31:20] trying to change that to how are you going to change it. We’re going to make it more meritocracy. Not not immediate [01:31:25] pay rises just because of another years gone by. Yeah. You know, that sort of thing. It’s [01:31:30] been massive, the pleasurable conversation. Um, there is two [01:31:35] parts we always do in this pod. Number one, your biggest mistake. Clinical.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It’s [01:31:40] only about whitening. [01:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: No way.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Enlighten. No. Thank [01:31:50] God. No. Don’t mention, don’t mention the name.

Fariba Zolfaghari: No. [01:31:55] Many years ago.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. May I [01:32:00] say the name? The brand name? No.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Okay. Um. Many years ago, the [01:32:05] in house whitening. Um, I bought a machine which I won’t [01:32:10] mention the name. And obviously you’re buying the whiting from [01:32:15] that company. And I’m not saying that anything [01:32:20] was or is wrong with the machine or the company’s, [01:32:25] um, Whiting brand material, because I’m still working with [01:32:30] that material in for in-house Whiting. Um, and I [01:32:35] still have got the machine. I love it, and patients love it. It [01:32:40] was early stages of me [01:32:45] going into in-house whitening with [01:32:50] the machine that I had bought. Um, I had [01:32:55] done a couple and it had gone really well. Um, [01:33:00] this lady came to me and she was going to get married [01:33:05] very soon, 2 or 3 weeks from [01:33:10] the date of the treatment. So [01:33:15] we did that, and at the end of the treatment, [01:33:20] she had big lips. [01:33:25]

Payman Langroudi: Allergy.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Allergy. And big, uh. [01:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: Ulceration, blisters and.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Things like burning. [01:33:35] Ulceration on her lips. And then when I got [01:33:40] in touch with the company, um, they said that. What [01:33:45] colour she was she white? [01:33:50] Red? Black. I said she is a fair skin [01:33:55] with freckles. Yeah. Reddish hair. And [01:34:00] that is quite a common Them with [01:34:05] their fair skin that they get this. They could [01:34:10] get this kind of. Ulceration, this kind of reaction. Mm. So [01:34:15] as a result, um, obviously I was really, really upset [01:34:20] for her because she was going to get married very soon. Did it.

Payman Langroudi: Not get better before the.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Wedding? [01:34:25] It did get better. She. I gave her some antibiotic antihistamine. [01:34:30] And just before she was getting married, there were [01:34:35] the swelling was going down. The ulceration was getting [01:34:40] down. Obviously, she had some cream that she got from her doctor. [01:34:45]

Payman Langroudi: But she was upset.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Really. She was really upset.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the error? The way [01:34:50] that you handled her upset or what did.

Fariba Zolfaghari: The lesson was [01:34:55] that I should have told her that this is a risk [01:35:00] for your skin type.

Payman Langroudi: But you wouldn’t. I mean, how would you know that?

Fariba Zolfaghari: I should have no [01:35:05] skin type.

Payman Langroudi: No no no no. I disagree with that. How are you gonna. [01:35:10] It’s such a rare thing.

Fariba Zolfaghari: It was rare. And they said it as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You don’t. You don’t need to tell [01:35:15] her. If it’s like, you know, less than a 5% chance of it happening. You know what I mean? [01:35:20] It’s like. It’s like saying I should tell someone when I take their tooth out that they could die. Well, [01:35:25] they could die. Someone has died when the tooth has been pulled out. So let’s [01:35:30] leave that 1 to 1 side. How did you handle her? Was she cool or was she. Was she not cool? No.

Fariba Zolfaghari: She [01:35:35] was really upset. Yeah. Not in a bad way.

Payman Langroudi: Just for her own wedding. [01:35:40]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, but it wasn’t a good experience for her or myself. [01:35:45]

Payman Langroudi: Have you got a better, better one than that one? Um, well, I like [01:35:50] that one because it’s whitening, but I feel like you didn’t make any mistakes [01:35:55] there.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I feel that I did. I should have warned her. No, you shouldn’t. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, that’s incorrect. Let’s talk about different mistakes. Yes. [01:36:05]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Um, the biggest mistake that [01:36:10] is you never treat your partner or family [01:36:15] and friends.

Payman Langroudi: Go on. I have, I’ve done a lot on my friends and family. [01:36:20]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Did you. Did you know what happened with the GDC? Because I was treating [01:36:25] my partner and they didn’t approve of that. Okay, okay. [01:36:30] So that was one of the big lesson I learned.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [01:36:35]

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah, both. That was.

Payman Langroudi: It’s funny because I still would treat my family, my friends, [01:36:40] my mom, actually, my.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Mom and my sister. Are you actually.

Payman Langroudi: Saying are [01:36:45] we actually saying that one. We should not treat friends and family. It’s weird.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:36:50] am actually saying do not treat your [01:36:55] partner.

Payman Langroudi: In case there’s a divorce.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Do not treat your friends. [01:37:00] Really? I would still do. My sisters, my brother, my mom. [01:37:05] Um, that I would do that because they would never [01:37:10] take me to court. But I would never, [01:37:15] ever again touch either a friend [01:37:20] or a partner’s taste.

Payman Langroudi: I like that one [01:37:25] more. I like that one. I do like that one. I do like that one. Final question. [01:37:30] Fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [01:37:35] dead or alive.

Fariba Zolfaghari: My [01:37:40] uncle. Was [01:37:45] very inspiring.

Payman Langroudi: My mom’s.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Brother. My father’s brother.

Payman Langroudi: My father’s brother.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Who was [01:37:50] a surgeon. Very inspiring. Um, [01:37:55] he would teach me a lot about. He was a businessman [01:38:00] as well. But business and about.

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Know [01:38:05] him? I knew him up to the point that I moved from [01:38:10] Iran. Then after that there was no connection, [01:38:15] I’m afraid, but very inspiring. The [01:38:20] second one would be Wayne Dyer. [01:38:25] Doctor Wayne Dyer. Who’s that? He’s an American [01:38:30] guy. He died in 2015. He’s a [01:38:35] doctor in psychology, and he is a speaker, [01:38:40] was a speaker, and he is blending the spirituality [01:38:45] and psychology together. Oh, nice. And if you listen [01:38:50] to him, you just listen to him. And it will take [01:38:55] you to a different world.

Payman Langroudi: Wayne Dwyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Wayne. Dyer. [01:39:00]

Payman Langroudi: Dyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Doctor. Wayne. Dyer.

Payman Langroudi: How do you spell. Dyer.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Dyer. [01:39:05]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Yeah. And the third [01:39:10] one. Jamie. Oliver. I like Jamie.

Payman Langroudi: I like Jamie.

Fariba Zolfaghari: I [01:39:15] love.

Payman Langroudi: Him. I like Jamie. Jamie used to live on my street at one point. Did he? I moved when I used [01:39:20] to live around here. Um, the reason why this office is here is because I always used to live around here. And [01:39:25] then I’ve moved to West London. I like Jamie, too.

Fariba Zolfaghari: He was amazing. He is amazing [01:39:30] guy. Amazing. And he’s. I love cooking, obviously, and [01:39:35] I just love watching him cook.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:39:40] been such a massive pleasure. Thank you so much for telling your story the way [01:39:45] you did.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you for having me.

Payman Langroudi: Not easy to say it all either. You know, that’s [01:39:50] that’s it’s it’s really inspirational to to hear it from you. And [01:39:55] you know really well. Done. Really well done. With with your practice. And like I [01:40:00] say, I see people coming to events and you’re still coming. I love that I really love [01:40:05] that. Thank you so much for coming.

Fariba Zolfaghari: Thank you for having me. My pleasure. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:40:10] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go [01:40:15] one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:40:20] hosts, Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:40:25]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:40:30] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what [01:40:35] we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:40:40]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:40:45] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much for [01:40:50] listening.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Nutritional scientist Dr Federica Amati shares her journey from aspiring medical student to becoming head nutritionist at Zoe.

She discusses the importance of evidence-based nutrition, the challenges of public health communication, and the complexities of dietary advice in the age of social media. 

Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, Amati emphasises the value of consistent, varied eating patterns and the critical role of prevention in public health.

 

In This Episode

00:00:25 – Introduction and early education background
00:01:25 – Medical school aspirations and pivot to biomedical sciences
00:08:25 – Career transition to public health and prevention
00:16:25 – Journey through hospitality and marketing in New York
00:21:45 – Return to academia and pursuing a PhD
00:23:15 – Balancing motherhood with academic pursuits
00:33:00 – Role at Zoe and nutrition science
00:39:45 – Mediterranean diet and carbohydrate quality
00:56:35 – Social media, nutrition misinformation, and professional responsibility
01:08:35 – Perspectives on weight loss medication
01:09:30 – Vision for the future of nutrition and public health

 

About Federica Amati

Dr Federica Amati is a nutrition scientist who holds a PhD in clinical medicine research and serves as the head nutritionist at Zoe. She combines her expertise in public health, medical science, and nutrition to promote evidence-based dietary advice. Currently, she holds a teaching role as the nutrition lead in the School of Medicine and works clinically as an AFN registered nutritionist.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome back to another episode of Mind Movers. Today I have an incredible [00:00:30] guest. If you have not seen her, you have been living under a rock. This is Federica [00:00:35] Amati. Did I say the surname correctly? Federica and I go way back. We actually [00:00:40] met when we were 18, back in our university days when I was at Leeds and she was at Edinburgh. [00:00:45] She has. She holds a teaching role as a as the nutrition [00:00:50] lead in the School of Medicine as part of the Map team. She [00:00:55] completed her PhD in clinical Medicine research with an NIH air funded studentships [00:01:00] at the Department of Primary Care and Public Health. She also now [00:01:05] is the head nutritionist at Zoe and everyone has heard of Zoe, the science and [00:01:10] nutrition company, and works clinically as an Ain registered nutritionist with well [00:01:15] founded health. Welcome Federica. Thanks for having me.

Federica Amati: It’s great to be here. Yeah, it’s [00:01:20] so fantastic.

Rhona Eskander: To be here. So, Federica, I want to start from the beginning. [00:01:25] You went to Edinburgh? That’s where we met. What did you study at Edinburgh?

Federica Amati: So I did biomedical sciences [00:01:30] and then my honours in pharmacology. And I was one of eight brave students [00:01:35] who decided to subspecialize in endocrine pharmacology. So I was really interested [00:01:40] in hormones and their impact on health essentially. So that was great, great. [00:01:45] Four years I loved Edinburgh, I had the best time. I never wanted to leave, so I was gutted when I graduated actually. [00:01:50] I loved Edinburgh too. Yeah, I used to spend all.

Rhona Eskander: My time in.

Payman Langroudi: Edinburgh. My sister was there. [00:01:55]

Rhona Eskander: Um, no, my best friend Chekka. So checker and I went to. She went to Edinburgh and [00:02:00] I was so resentful that I went to Leeds, which was like the dark, gloomy, druggy university. And then I went to Edinburgh [00:02:05] and it was all these sophisticated dinner parties. And, you know, I loved that, you know, bougie Rona. But [00:02:10] what I find interesting, Frederica, is that I think that what a lot of people can resonate with is [00:02:15] that your aspirations were to originally be a doctor. Yeah. That’s right. Did you get into medical school? [00:02:20]

Federica Amati: No. So I well, so I did I had an offer to go with my A-levels. [00:02:25] So I had I was supposed to go to Imperial College and had my place there. And it was conditional, [00:02:30] of course, as usual for medicine on me getting all A’s. And I was, um, supposed [00:02:35] to be getting all A’s. Then what happened is my my. So I’m from Italian family, and my grandparents [00:02:40] were living with us at the time, and my grandmother died the day before [00:02:45] my chemistry A-level. Wow. And it was only one paper, [00:02:50] but it was organic chemistry, which I’m sure you did as well. And it’s, you know, a thing, but I was not [00:02:55] in the mood to do it, but I called the school and said, what should I do? Should I come and sit [00:03:00] the paper or should I? And they said, look, we’ve told Imperial. They understand that it’s an [00:03:05] extenuating circumstance. Just come in, just sit the exam and then don’t worry about it. [00:03:10] So I remember I sat in this exam hall and wrote my name on the paper [00:03:15] and then just sat and stared at the wall, crying for the rest of the thing. I had I had nothing to give. [00:03:20] And basically months later, so everything progressed as normal. I was planning to go [00:03:25] to Imperial, and about three weeks before the start of term, I got [00:03:30] a call from my sixth form sort of head office person and said, look, I’m really sorry, but Imperial [00:03:35] have changed their mind.

Federica Amati: And I was like, sorry. Yeah. And they were like, well, they can’t really make an [00:03:40] exception on a chemistry paper because that paper ended up being unmarked because there was nothing [00:03:45] there. I said, it’s you know, I know that they said they could, but they’ve decided [00:03:50] that someone above that decided that it wasn’t something they could do. They couldn’t set a couldn’t set a precedent for it. [00:03:55] And I was so like, oh no. Like, what am I going to do now? Because, [00:04:00] you know, when you want to do medicine, you do like the work experience. I spent my summers in hospitals and done all of that stuff. [00:04:05] And, um, my mom was a doctor, so I kind of thought I had this idea, and I just thought [00:04:10] they said, well, if you want to, you can just reset that one paper in a year’s time and [00:04:15] then come next year. And I was like, no, you know, some kids want to do a gap year. That [00:04:20] was not me. Like, I had no plans to do. But I was like, why would I do a gap year? I just want to crack on. [00:04:25]

Federica Amati: Yeah. And it just wasn’t my plan. So I said, no, I’m not doing that. And I went back to [00:04:30] my school and I said, what can I do? And I spoke to the head of sixth and she said, look, you’ve got an amazing Ucas, Ucas, [00:04:35] Ucas application. She was like, what? What about doing like, what about [00:04:40] medicine are you looking forward to? And I said, I’m really looking forward to learning more of the theory of like how the [00:04:45] body works. She said, why don’t you think about doing biomed science? Because that’s basically what that is. And she [00:04:50] said, you could you could follow the US model and do bio-med science and do postgrad med, which you [00:04:55] can do here as well. I think that’s quite a good idea. So I was like, well, so where’s good for [00:05:00] biomed science? I said, well, the best university is Edinburgh. And I was like, okay, never [00:05:05] been and wasn’t on my plans, but let’s call them. So I literally picked up the [00:05:10] phone and called the admissions office at Edinburgh University, said, hey, like just had this plot twist, [00:05:15] sort of. This is my Ucas number. Would you consider me for a place? And they looked me up and were like, [00:05:20] yeah, great.

Federica Amati: Yeah. You’re. Yeah, definitely. We’ve got space come. Right. So I went home. [00:05:25] Can you imagine my poor Italian parents saying, mum, dad, I’m going to Edinburgh next week. They [00:05:30] were like, oh yeah, I love that. What? They’re like, what do you mean? I was like, got a place. And [00:05:35] they were like, are you sure? I was like 100% doing it. Going. Yeah. So [00:05:40] that was that. So literally packed my stuff the next week. Managed [00:05:45] to find halls like I called the halls up. There was a dropout, so I managed to get a space and went [00:05:50] to Edinburgh instead. And um, best plot twist. So it’s funny [00:05:55] because when you think about your career often it’s it’s for a few people like my brother. It’s a fairly [00:06:00] linear process, but for a lot of people I think it isn’t. And that was the first curve for me [00:06:05] where it was like, that’s not what I planned. It’s not what I thought I was going to be doing. But it turned out so well [00:06:10] for me. Like, I loved Edinburgh, I thrived there, I had the best time, I loved my [00:06:15] university course, my friends and the whole experience. And I actually think, I’m so glad [00:06:20] I went there instead of going to London Uni.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I mean like London Uni. It was funny because for me, I was, [00:06:25] you know, I think like you, when you come from a medical background and even more so [00:06:30] like an immigrant background, it’s like you have to do a vocational degree that, you know, is guaranteed to keep you safe financially. [00:06:35] Payman and I had discussed that, you know, it’s choose something that we know that you’re going [00:06:40] to be safe financially. I mean, I grew up around medicine, and I think the hurdle for me was, [00:06:45] is that I was living in a place of conflict. I loved English and English and philosophy. I was thriving [00:06:50] in those subjects. I had to do chemistry and biology because I wanted to get into dental school. [00:06:55] My aunt was a dentist, so I was like, okay, I’m inspired by that. I was never really that [00:07:00] into medicine, I did that. Um, what was it? You know, you know, at Nottingham University, [00:07:05] they did this kind of like medic, you know? Do you want to be a doctor? Do you know what I’m talking about?

Federica Amati: You just. You have [00:07:10] to. So the ones where you have to sew the orange peel.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah. And they. And they wake you up at, like, 3:00. [00:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: And they wake.

Rhona Eskander: They wake you up at 3:00 in the morning, and then they put you, [00:07:20] like, in a fake ambulance to see. Yeah. And it was I hated everything about it. And I remember they [00:07:25] did these simulations with doctors and they basically gave you a load of symptoms, and you had to try [00:07:30] and work out what the patient had. And I was like, I have no clue. And what I realised very quickly was that [00:07:35] the lack of hands on experience that you had in medicine, and particularly [00:07:40] within the GP experience, isn’t something that I necessarily wanted to do, but my hurdle was also [00:07:45] that I didn’t fit the narrative of what a what a dentist should be. I didn’t look [00:07:50] like somebody that was going to be part of a system, and I had to dial [00:07:55] down who I was. I wanted to go to Bristol. I didn’t get into Bristol. I came to my interview looking like this. And, [00:08:00] you know, being me. And they were like, no, like, she just doesn’t cut it, basically. So then I pretended to be someone I [00:08:05] wasn’t when I went to Leeds and they gave me the job, they gave me the position. But I met a [00:08:10] lot of people at Leeds where their first degree was something like biomedical sciences or something [00:08:15] similar to you, to then go on and do dentistry if they wanted to do it. But [00:08:20] what was the turning point where you realised, actually, I don’t want to be a doctor and I don’t want to do medicine.

Federica Amati: Yeah. [00:08:25] So it was after the biomed degree. I was at this fork where it was, okay, I can either now [00:08:30] apply for a postgrad med role or do something else. And bear in mind, I’d [00:08:35] been doing all these work experiences right? And what I’d done is I had done some like placements in the UK, in [00:08:40] hospitals here, and then I’d done some placements in Italy. And the difference [00:08:45] Wow was very stark. So I when I got to that point, I [00:08:50] had to make a decision. I was like, I kind of if I was going to do medicine, I’d rather do it in Italy because [00:08:55] medicine is very different there. The way we treat patients is very different there. There’s much more continuity [00:09:00] of care. Like you have a doctor that is your doctor and that you [00:09:05] see the same person, right? Which is unheard of. The continuity of care in the UK doesn’t exist really, unless you’ve [00:09:10] got like a very specialist sort of need. And so when it came to applying, then I [00:09:15] remember thinking I was like, should I apply to Italian? I was like, I don’t I’ve never learned in Italian, [00:09:20] I’ve never done. I was at school in Italy for like a year right before we moved to the UK. [00:09:25] So I was like, could I really pick up all the scientific terminology in Italian all of a sudden? Like, [00:09:30] I don’t know if I even could. I don’t even write essays in Italian. So even though I’m completely fluent, [00:09:35] it’s very different doing education in that language, you know? Um, [00:09:40] so I so I was on this thing, so I thought, I’ll tell you what, I applied to applied to Queen Mary’s postgrad [00:09:45] and medicine, and then I thought what I was asking myself, [00:09:50] like, why do I really want to do medicine? Like, what’s the actual driver? Because it’s definitely not being on the wards for [00:09:55] 12 hours a day or and it’s not.

Federica Amati: So I just really want to be helpful. I want to be I want [00:10:00] to do something that’s going to be helpful for people to be like, have a better life [00:10:05] and be healthier. And this is when someone basically came up to me and said, but have you thought about public [00:10:10] health? And I said, well, what’s public health? It’s not exactly. People don’t. Well, people [00:10:15] talk about it now more since the pandemic, but it wasn’t a thing, right? It’s a very small course at [00:10:20] Imperial College. But, you know, basically someone described it to me. It’s basically [00:10:25] population medicine. So you think about how you can improve health [00:10:30] at a population scale. And I was like, that’s really cool. So working more upstream. [00:10:35] And the reason that what triggered that is I did a placement, um, [00:10:40] in Oxford at the hospital there. And one of my one of the days I was [00:10:45] shadowing, I was shadowing the team who was on the dementia ward, and [00:10:50] I met a patient there who was 19 years old and had alcoholic dementia. [00:10:55] Wow. At 19.

[TRANSITION]: Wow.

Federica Amati: And I and because I said, was he doing [00:11:00] on this ward? And the doctors were like, well, he has been a heavy drinker from the age of 12. [00:11:05] Wow. And now his brain, it doesn’t really work. He’s lost. And so [00:11:10] he was on the ward. He didn’t know why he was on the ward as well, which was really sad. So he kept making stories up about why he [00:11:15] was on the ward and he thought he had a girlfriend. He didn’t know. It was really sad. And that moment, that and another patient, [00:11:20] which was a paediatric patient, which I won’t go into because it was so sad. I [00:11:25] just thought the doctors here are doing this work, but it’s so far down the line of damage that [00:11:30] a I actually don’t think. I think after the paediatric patient I thought I don’t actually [00:11:35] have, I don’t have the stomach for it. I can’t do this day in, day out like that. I was [00:11:40] I was so young when I when I did that. I was like 20 when I did that placement, and I still remember it now and it still makes me feel like sad [00:11:45] so clearly. So there’s a level of I have so much respect for people who do this work [00:11:50] and how they can do it, because you see so much sadness.

Federica Amati: And [00:11:55] also I felt like, how can we work more upstream? Like, how can I do something that’s useful a [00:12:00] bit earlier on in the process? Because by the time people come in, I did. I did all sorts of wards, I [00:12:05] did cardio and cardiology, I did the the hepatic ward, like with the hepatology [00:12:10] ward where you see liver patients and it’s like so far down the line. So when someone [00:12:15] said public health to me, I was like, that sounds cool because you get to actually prevent. So [00:12:20] preventative medicine is essentially what my goal was at this point. And so [00:12:25] when it came to that fork in the road, I thought, I’m not going to do post-grad medicine at Queen Mary’s. [00:12:30] I’m going to go and do public health at Imperial College. And so I did the masters there. I [00:12:35] had a really good year. It was really interesting. I learned a lot. Obviously Epidemiologie was brand new. All these [00:12:40] things, and I started to learn about how you can intervene at a public health level [00:12:45] to help people prevent disease. And that was that was it. Then I was like, right, this is this is what I want to do. [00:12:50]

Rhona Eskander: Can I ask you, how was your mum about that? Because obviously, like, you know, you’ve got [00:12:55] I’ve come from a medic, father. Your parents medics. No, no. Yeah. [00:13:00] Um, how do you think that made her feel? How did she react to that?

Federica Amati: So it’s funny [00:13:05] because we immigrated from Italy and it was the same, like lawyer, doctor. [00:13:10] Engineer. Yeah, engineer. Not me. Maths was not my strong suit, but was like.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, [00:13:15] failure is the other.

Federica Amati: Option.

Payman Langroudi: No, no. Yeah.

Federica Amati: Um, [00:13:20] so when like, biomed science is okay, [00:13:25] sure. It’s a stepping stone, you know. Fine. Um, public health, they were like, okay, so more [00:13:30] W.H.O. route. So then it was like, okay, she’s going to go and work like in a big institution. Now, my [00:13:35] mum was a doctor, but when she moved to the UK, she was one of the founding [00:13:40] members of the EMA. So she was like a big org, sort of, you [00:13:45] know, medicines regulatory. Sure. So she was like, yeah, I can see the W.H.O. thing because [00:13:50] that was now. So she was cool with this so far. And [00:13:55] but she couldn’t see how it was going to be as straightforward as medicine because [00:14:00] medicine is like you do the thing, you get a job, you’re a doctor. Done. Right. So but she was always very [00:14:05] supportive. But I think a little bit worried, like the undertone. Whereas [00:14:10] my dad was more of a bit of a he was a bit of a maverick. He like had his own company. [00:14:15] So he was much more sort of you’ll figure it out. Risk taking. Yeah. He was just [00:14:20] more. Whatever you do, you’ll figure it out. So I got the confidence to try [00:14:25] things out from him and. And the sort of drive to [00:14:30] not fail from her.

Payman Langroudi: You’re now a nutritional scientist. [00:14:35] Interest.

Federica Amati: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So after.

Federica Amati: My master’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what’s the difference between being a nutritionist [00:14:40] and a dietitian? Okay.

Federica Amati: Good question. Yeah. So no they are different. So [00:14:45] nutritionists are trained in nutrition science. So [00:14:50] whereas dietitians are trained in being clinicians who support diet. So [00:14:55] a dietitian a dietitian works in a hospital. They train in hospitals alongside [00:15:00] the medical teams. And they will support patients who have complex medical needs with [00:15:05] their nutrition. So there’s things a dietitian can do that a nutritionist cannot do and shouldn’t [00:15:10] do. Right. And the reason why registered dietitians are like it’s a [00:15:15] registration. It’s a compulsory registration. You can’t legally.

Payman Langroudi: Body and all that.

Federica Amati: You can’t legally [00:15:20] call yourself a dietitian unless you are actually a registered dietitian. Whereas [00:15:25] with nutritionists, unfortunately, it’s not regulated. So you could [00:15:30] do like a two day course on the internet and call yourself a nutritionist. Or you could do like a [00:15:35] PhD and a master’s in nutrition like me. And so it’s a bit more of a wild West. It’s harder to [00:15:40] to it’s harder to know what who’s who’s doing what.

Rhona Eskander: I think [00:15:45] I think that’s just a wider problem. Like we’ve had that as well. You know, I’ve had psychotherapists on here. And then even [00:15:50] within that realm, you know, there’s coaches or there are people that will call themselves a [00:15:55] psychologist or your therapist. And I think like, unfortunately, [00:16:00] it’s not as heavily regulated as medicine and dentistry like you will. You cannot call [00:16:05] yourself, even if you are an expert at something that you do. If you call yourself a specialist, you’re at risk [00:16:10] of losing your license if you’re not on the specialist register. So like we’re very regulated, [00:16:15] whereas I think this industry is less so regulated. So now you work for [00:16:20] Zoe? Yes. Tell us how that came about and what Zoe’s about for those that don’t know.

Federica Amati: Yeah. [00:16:25] So after my masters, I took a break from academia because it was the [00:16:30] next logical step. Was PhD D or an Mrs.. So like a research masters. [00:16:35] And I was like, yeah, just, you know, I’m not sure. And my supervisor at the time [00:16:40] who was in the Who Collaborating Centre at Imperial, he said, look, [00:16:45] this was the year when there was a big white paper. So the whole of public health was restructured in the UK. It was a bit of a mess. [00:16:50] He was like, it’s not a really good time for like a young public health person to enter the system. [00:16:55] He was like, go away and do something else. He was so funny. He was like, just go and like, get some, get some work [00:17:00] experience. You know? I was like, okay, so I left [00:17:05] Imperial.

Rhona Eskander: What year.

Federica Amati: Was this? 2010. Okay. Yeah. And I just thought, [00:17:10] well, what am I going to do? Because, uh, there’s, you know, I need to get work experience. [00:17:15] But in academia, I’m still very junior and in public health there was like no jobs going. So [00:17:20] I was like, what should I do? And then through my dad, like a friend of my dad’s, was like, well, we need someone who’s quite [00:17:25] good at writing. Like you. I did English Lit and history. I loved writing and reading and [00:17:30] I was so loved. So I was like, oh, I’d love to do it. So it was like a very junior marketing role in hospitality. [00:17:35] What this my mom was like. What? I was like, but, you know, it’s a job. [00:17:40] And actually, let’s just see what happens. So I took that job and it just escalated. It [00:17:45] went from there. I got a job in New York in hospitality and became the director of [00:17:50] comms for a hospitality company there. So it kind of and it was interesting [00:17:55] for me to do that journey because.

Rhona Eskander: So that you kind of left nutrition behind at that [00:18:00] time.

Federica Amati: So I left, yeah, I left I sort of left science behind. I hadn’t even started nutrition yet. Right. [00:18:05] So I kind of left it behind. I, I realised I wanted to do nutrition during [00:18:10] my master’s because of a lecture that I had from Lee, who is the director of the Epic cohort, [00:18:15] which is like the biggest study on cancer in in Europe, basically. And [00:18:20] his lecture, he he showed us the results from a study he’d done that year, which directly [00:18:25] showed that it was actually one of the studies that Made [00:18:30] processed meat a class one carcinogen, so his research showed that consumption of [00:18:35] processed meat was directly linked to colorectal cancer. Interesting. I remember sitting there actually going, [00:18:40] what? And did anyone else hear that? So it was the first time that I’d seen dietary [00:18:45] pattern something we’re eating directly causing a disease. So [00:18:50] the seed was planted, but nutrition science wasn’t available at Imperial College. It wasn’t available [00:18:55] to me in my sphere at that point. So I went off, did it quite funnily. I went and worked in [00:19:00] hospitality. So lots of restaurants, food everywhere anyway. And um, but then after two [00:19:05] years.

Rhona Eskander: And is that where you met your partner?

Federica Amati: No. Not yet. So yeah. Not yet. So [00:19:10] after two years doing that and living that life and it was very fun, like there was events and film [00:19:15] festivals and lots of travel and.

Rhona Eskander: I’m here for it. I’m still living at home. I’m 37 [00:19:20] and.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like, is that why when I Google you, it says socialite comes up first instead [00:19:25] of nutrition.

Federica Amati: That’s a that’s a different story for a different day. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll [00:19:30] tell you that story because it’s a really good one, because at that point I was a PhD, but [00:19:35] this is pre-pandemic being a PhD. It wasn’t cool. So [00:19:40] instead of so when they wrote me, that was the article about our wedding. When we got married, they were like, [00:19:45] what do you do? And I was like, well, I’m a medical scientist. And they were like, no. And just made me a socialite. No way. [00:19:50] So that’s changed since the pandemic. Now, like scientists, especially female scientists are [00:19:55] much more respected. But back then, it’s like it was a whole magazine, to be fair. They were like, no, that’s not going [00:20:00] to resonate with our readers. I was like, what do you mean? Yeah. So the experience of [00:20:05] working in New York, I worked in marketing and PR, and I got, you know, I became very good at [00:20:10] getting whatever we needed into press. It’s like, okay, we need to open this restaurant [00:20:15] in Chelsea in New York, and we’re going to put artists on the wall and and it’s in vogue, done. Like, it was [00:20:20] a very interesting process for me to see how firstly, [00:20:25] how Firstly how quickly compared to academia. It was like bam, bam, bam, bam bam so quick. And also how [00:20:30] like so my dream then was okay, I’ve sort of [00:20:35] created, crafted some sort of communication skills. It wasn’t I wasn’t doing it for that long, but I [00:20:40] picked it up. But what I really wanted was to get to a point in my life where I could [00:20:45] get Vogue to write about things that actually mattered for people’s health.

Federica Amati: So what I [00:20:50] found very hard and a big reason for, like I knew quite early on in my career, in that career, that I wasn’t [00:20:55] going to stay in it. It wasn’t. My thing was there’s all this [00:21:00] time and energy spent on telling people about things that aren’t that important. And there’s [00:21:05] so much coming out of the science and academia academic world that are fundamentally useful [00:21:10] things for people to, like, live a better life. And so that was when [00:21:15] the seed for me wanting to do more science communications, I didn’t know this was what it was called at the time. But I was like, I want to be able [00:21:20] to communicate science, not communicate festival Like media. Yeah, [00:21:25] film or whatever. Yeah. So I, I sort of left New York. I [00:21:30] met my I met Paul, I met my husband at the last event I did in London, [00:21:35] and he was one of the guests. And so we met there. And then actually very [00:21:40] soon after I moved back to London. I was already planning to, but moved to London because [00:21:45] my father was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. So I was like, drop dropped everything, left my flat and [00:21:50] just moved back. And when I came back to London was when I thought, okay, this is the time now to [00:21:55] go back into science. I miss science, I miss research like I miss it so much. So [00:22:00] I called, I basically looked there’s this website called find a PhD literally. Yeah. And I think.

Rhona Eskander: I know it. Yeah. [00:22:05]

Federica Amati: And but universities genuinely post all their PhDs on it. I was like I’m just going to go on there [00:22:10] and I’m just going to look at public health PhDs and I’m going to apply. And [00:22:15] there was this PhD in at Imperial and it [00:22:20] was back in my old apartment. So School of Public Health, a topic that [00:22:25] I’d never done. Um, it was it was a medical science PhD. So they were looking at patient [00:22:30] outcomes was like the, the primary thing, but the data set they wanted to use [00:22:35] was a psychological, uh, like it’s called IAP, increasing access [00:22:40] to psychological therapies. It’s like a psychological outcomes data set. And [00:22:45] I had never done psychology before. But so my brain I was like, this is an opportunity [00:22:50] to learn something new. So I applied to this PhD and I went to the interview and they were like, [00:22:55] you have very little experience of large data sets and you’ve [00:23:00] never done psychology. I was like, yes, but I’m really willing to learn and I’m up for [00:23:05] it. And they took a punt and they were like, okay, let’s do it, let’s go. So I did that PhD and [00:23:10] it was, you know, really hard. Phds are really hard. Yeah, they.

Rhona Eskander: Are really hard. And I [00:23:15] just I just kind of want to interject there because I think one big piece of the puzzle that you’re not giving yourself credit for is [00:23:20] also like you’re a mom of two. Yeah. And, you know, I, as someone that’s been very career [00:23:25] orientated their whole lives, I still get a little bit [00:23:30] of fear about how my life is going to change. You know, once another human being is. And I [00:23:35] think that, you know, it’s incredibly difficult for women, you know, we don’t get enough recognition [00:23:40] and understanding for how much your life does change. Your life doesn’t change that much. And [00:23:45] and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Are you two the same age? Yeah. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Same. Exactly. Um, so, [00:23:50] you know, how did you I mean, did you get pregnant during your PhD and how did that affect you? How [00:23:55] did that affect your studies?

Federica Amati: Yeah. So so yeah. So I think you’re right. [00:24:00] The first massive change for me was going from my role in New York to [00:24:05] a student, by the way.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Federica Amati: That was a bit of a yeah a readjustment [00:24:10] because I was suddenly like, oh, I have no money. Like I was lucky to be funded, but it’s a stipend, [00:24:15] right? It’s not. I was like, okay, I have no money and I’m at the bottom of bottom of the academic ladder. [00:24:20] This PhD students, you’re like they’re right. Um, so it was a big mindset [00:24:25] switch up. And then of course, that our timelines, [00:24:30] I have to say like were slightly dictated, but we ended up getting married [00:24:35] faster than we would have done because my dad was dying. So we sort of got married quite quickly [00:24:40] after we got engaged. Like poor, poor. Like he got engaged three months later. Yeah. [00:24:45] So we don’t have time to mess around here. And then, um, and then, [00:24:50] you know. Yeah, I was doing my PhD, and I just. There’s no. The thing is, with, I think what I’ve. What I realised [00:24:55] there’s no good time to have a child. There isn’t. There isn’t ever [00:25:00] going to be a gap where you’re like.

Payman Langroudi: Ha, very true.

Federica Amati: This is a good time is there’s no good time. Like [00:25:05] so I just thought like, well, we’ll crack on and then if we get pregnant, great. And let’s [00:25:10] just see what happens. So when eventually we did get pregnant, I just worked right [00:25:15] through my pregnancy. Like, just carried on. And then when [00:25:20] I had Sophia, when Sophia was born, I wanted to take six months [00:25:25] off with her. And there’s no issue interrupting your PhD, [00:25:30] but it’s very hard to get back into it when you’ve when you’ve like, especially [00:25:35] even just writing the code, by the way, for starter, which is what I was using. Like you forget because [00:25:40] it’s not interesting. So unless you like, absolutely love coding. Um, but so it was really it was [00:25:45] really tough. But I just, I did I took the time off. [00:25:50] Not all of it. I started I started to work back on it on the PhD a bit. [00:25:55] Just I kept reading throughout even when like when she was born, I kept reading just to keep myself up [00:26:00] to date. And then when I did go back to it, I just cracked on a bit faster. [00:26:05] I think, you know, having children changes everything, especially the first one. Oh my God, [00:26:10] it’s like the house is on fire, like what’s happened, but it refocuses. [00:26:15]

Rhona Eskander: Everything. Also that 1 to 2 is actually worse.

Federica Amati: No, I love my second second. Do you know what you’re doing a bit [00:26:20] more? You’re a bit less stressed. It’s less. It’s more chaos for sure. Yeah. But in terms of [00:26:25] the your ability to just to just go with the flow, it’s better with the second I think [00:26:30] for most people, not not for everyone, but I what people [00:26:35] I think often don’t realise is that once you have a kid. So if you’re especially if you’re I think [00:26:40] it’s for mothers, especially your drive to succeed to so that you can [00:26:45] look after that kid is huge. Like the the amount, how [00:26:50] hard and how focussed I work now is like 20 times 20 fold. Before [00:26:55] I was a mum because also I don’t have time now. So like every [00:27:00] hour of my day is dedicated to achieve because then [00:27:05] as soon as I finish working I go to my job as a mother. So your mindset [00:27:10] completely transforms when you’re a parent. And for some I think I have friends for sure [00:27:15] who, when they had children, decided that actually their career was not important for them and [00:27:20] their focus was their kids. And for others, it’s like my career is really important [00:27:25] to me and I want I need to nurture it and continue with it.

Federica Amati: And [00:27:30] I’m also a mother. So it’s individual, but honestly, I just cracked on. It did affect my PhD, [00:27:35] so I was six months later. So instead of writing up period starting [00:27:40] at three years, it started at three and a half. So just a bit longer. And but [00:27:45] then I just cracked on and then I and then I was like, well, I’m writing up now. So I got [00:27:50] to my write up period and I was like, I want I wanted to have two second. So I was [00:27:55] like, should we try? I was like, oh my God, come on, are you kidding? And so we got pregnant. [00:28:00] Um, and I just entered writing up period and then realised that [00:28:05] I really wanted to do a masters in nutrition. And this is where this year was probably not [00:28:10] my not not the most thought out. Yeah, but I basically [00:28:15] said, okay, well, in my write up period, I’ve got a year to write this up, but I’ve actually I’ve written most of it, I’ve written [00:28:20] some papers which are going to go into the PhD. So I was like, I don’t need a whole year to write this up just by [00:28:25] itself. So I decided to do my master’s in my write up year. [00:28:30] Pregnant. Pregnant.

Rhona Eskander: That’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. Well, but you know what?

Federica Amati: The thing [00:28:35] is? I didn’t plan it. I just had I had I had an aim [00:28:40] to finish my PhD and aim to get my master’s in nutrition because I was like, I really, this is what I really want to do. [00:28:45] I want to apply my public health. Like, how am I going to deliver improved public health with [00:28:50] medical science and nutrition as my tool? That was clear to me then. So I kept with that. And then my second [00:28:55] goal was, I want to be a mother. I want to build a family. The two things cannot be mutually exclusive. So I’m just [00:29:00] going to crack on with both. And I did, and it was quite hectic for a while I think.

Rhona Eskander: So there’s a couple [00:29:05] of things that sort of come up for me when you were talking, first of all, did your father’s [00:29:10] diagnosis of colorectal cancer, because you brought up at the beginning of the [00:29:15] conversation that, you know, you were like, you had this light bulb moment when someone said that it was [00:29:20] due to certain foods. Et cetera. So do you think that was also a driver for you [00:29:25] to propel you towards nutrition?

Federica Amati: No. I think in hindsight, it [00:29:30] looks in hindsight, you can join the dots, right? But at the time, [00:29:35] it just at the time, [00:29:40] it made me more interested in understanding disease. I was like, how did we get here? Like what? [00:29:45] How did this happen? And how could it? How could it be prevented actually? [00:29:50] But of course, at that, in that moment, it’s also. How can I help my dad? [00:29:55] Obviously there was I did not have the knowledge or the skill set or whatever. I couldn’t have done much to help him anyway. But it’s [00:30:00] like it’s a different drive when you’re in that in that moment is [00:30:05] very different. In hindsight, it definitely shaped my trajectory for sure. Like, [00:30:10] especially, the more I studied, the more I understood just [00:30:15] how much his lifestyle and his diet increased his risk. Yeah, [00:30:20] but it was after his death that that really, you know, that [00:30:25] that was more of a realisation. So I think it did shape my trajectory, but I wasn’t aware of it at the time. [00:30:30]

Rhona Eskander: Nice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if you were, if you were the queen of the world and you could push a button and change [00:30:35] nutritional habits for different people. Yeah. What are your top three things [00:30:40] you would change?

Federica Amati: Top three. So the [00:30:45] the three things that are lacking from people’s diets. Right. [00:30:50] And the science on this is really interesting because people always think about I’m having too much [00:30:55] of this, too much of that. But when you look at what are the biggest drivers of disability and disease [00:31:00] caused by diet, and let’s remember, diet related chronic diseases are the number one killers in the world. So it’s [00:31:05] really the things that cause the most death and death and disease. It’s the foods that are lacking from [00:31:10] our plate. That cause way more damage than what we’re eating too much of. And this [00:31:15] is actually. Sometimes a bit confusing because it’s like, what do you mean it’s like so.

Rhona Eskander: Green vegetables.

Federica Amati: A [00:31:20] diet high in trans fats kills a lot of people. A diet high in red meat kills people. [00:31:25] A diet high in processed meat kills people. But they are fractions compared to a [00:31:30] diet low in whole grains, which kills the most people. Of any dietary habit. [00:31:35] A diet low in whole fruits which have been demonised, demonised, left, right and centre [00:31:40] everywhere. And a diet low in. Well, can I have can I have more than three legumes [00:31:45] and the other one is nuts and seeds.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say whole grains. Yeah.

Federica Amati: Wheat, spelt, [00:31:50] barley, steel cut oats, not quick cooked porridge.

Rhona Eskander: Those [00:31:55] were considered like the poor people foods like back in the day. And now they’re superfoods like in in [00:32:00] the Middle East we have something called whole grains. Yeah, exactly. And and [00:32:05] we have something called fool as well, which is like Egyptian fool. Yeah. You know, and it’s my favourite thing. [00:32:10] Yeah. And it’s like it’s an Egyptian meal. But they used to. It was like the poor man’s food, right? Because, like, on the streets, [00:32:15] you’d have the fool with the brown whole bread. And like, the fool comes with lots of, like, veggies. [00:32:20] Like tomatoes. So like. And I mean, I’m lucky because Middle East, Europe. Like a mediterranean diet. [00:32:25] You know, I’m Lebanese.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say pulses. So you mean beans? Right.

Federica Amati: Beans. Lentils. [00:32:30] Edamame beans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So thank God for that whole bean company.

Federica Amati: Bold bean company. [00:32:35] Amelia. She knows I love her. Yeah, yeah. She’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good stuff.

Federica Amati: Oh, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Otherwise [00:32:40] you have to find an Italian deli or something to get, you know.

Federica Amati: But let’s be clear. Like, bold beans are amazing, but you can buy [00:32:45] tinned beans anywhere.

Payman Langroudi: And still get the benefit.

Federica Amati: Yeah, bold beans have done the best job at making them [00:32:50] absolutely delicious. Anyone can get into beans with bold beans. That’s what’s amazing, right?

Rhona Eskander: I want to know, [00:32:55] how did you get into Zoe? Because that was my original question. Wow. Sorry. That was me. Okay. That’s okay. [00:33:00] So so.

Federica Amati: So eventually. So the science comms, passion nutrition is Nutrition is the tool I want to use. So [00:33:05] here I am. I’m like going going down to get my master’s, get registered. Like [00:33:10] I’m taking this very seriously. My Imperial college were like, you don’t need to do a master’s in nutrition. You have a PhD. [00:33:15] Like I was like, no, I’m going to go and I’m going to do it because I don’t want to be another nutritionist [00:33:20] who didn’t get the thing. So he went and did it. And, um, and I was like, right, [00:33:25] I’m going to I started working on nutrition communications. So [00:33:30] I did a lot of press, answering questions about food, using research, referencing [00:33:35] everything. That’s how I started. Then I had a call and this is so the pandemic [00:33:40] happened at this point and I was like, oh God, this is not great. So I had like a newborn and [00:33:45] I was trying to build this new career. I was like, this is going to be interesting. And I had this [00:33:50] call with a woman called Harriet who runs a really successful communications science communications [00:33:55] company here. And she was like, listen, I’ve got this client. He [00:34:00] needs some help with a book. It’s right up your street. He’s a doctor and [00:34:05] he’s writing a nutrition book. And he wants someone who’s got medical science and nutrition. And I don’t know [00:34:10] that many people, because the combination of public health, PhD, medical science and nutrition is quite unusual because it’s kind of [00:34:15] three different, um, disciplines. Yeah. She was I think you’ll [00:34:20] get on I think you’ll he’ll appreciate like your work.

Federica Amati: I was like, great. But he was like she was like, so yeah. [00:34:25] Do you want to meet with him? The only thing is that the pay is not amazing because it’s a book. I was like, shut up. What? Who is it? And she was [00:34:30] like, do you know Professor Tim Spector? And I was like, that’s hilarious. Obviously, this was before he was famous, [00:34:35] right? But for me, he was already famous because I was like, I’d been to see him at the Royal Society of Medicine. I knew exactly [00:34:40] who he was. I was like, are you joking? Yes. So I literally was like, I definitely wanna meet him. So I had [00:34:45] a call with him and he was like, probably pretty annoyed that [00:34:50] he had to work for someone new. Yeah. So he was like, okay. So we did like a [00:34:55] sample chapter, uh, where I basically rewrote it and I was like, disagree, disagree, [00:35:00] wrong, wrong wrong wrong. He was like, okay, let’s go, let’s do this. So I worked with him on food for life, [00:35:05] his like Bible, which is an amazing book I highly recommend. A lot of love went into that. [00:35:10] And then of course he was building Zoe at this time. And so eventually he [00:35:15] was like, I think we could really do with like, you helping us at Zoe. And I was like, sounds [00:35:20] fun. Like, let’s do it. So then I started working with him at [00:35:25] Zoe as well. And yeah. And I’m still there. The rest [00:35:30] is history.

Rhona Eskander: So I want to ask you, obviously, um, I’m a massive advocate of health. [00:35:35] I’ve been in a really privileged position that I can afford to be healthy, because I think one of the big things [00:35:40] about public health is as well, is that we don’t sometimes empathise with people’s [00:35:45] social or socioeconomic factors that make it incredibly difficult. You know, I always say, [00:35:50] if you’ve got a mum of six that comes from an abused home, that’s a single mum living in a council estate, she’s [00:35:55] going to go down and get that McDonald’s. She’s not going to go down to Tesco and get some get some fresh ingredients, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:36:00] not necessarily though, because, you know, you see that it’s a bit patronising.

Rhona Eskander: I know it’s not it’s not patronising. [00:36:05]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, what what Frederica says the education if they [00:36:10] have this. But the thing is tin of tin of tin of beans is actually quite.

Rhona Eskander: Cheap, but totally. But this, this is a larger [00:36:15] problem, right? Because as you know, even in dentistry, are we paid for prevention? The two very [00:36:20] basic things that patients need to improve their oral health in this crisis that we’re going through [00:36:25] is brush your teeth twice a day with fluoride, reduce [00:36:30] the frequency, not necessarily the amount of sugar. That message has not even been spread [00:36:35] in an efficient manner because it’s not prioritised. So the health care system in [00:36:40] the UK, I recognise that as well. So I’m not saying it to be patronising, but what I’m saying is I have, [00:36:45] I have, I have empathy. I have empathy as well to understand that we [00:36:50] can say that because we have had the privilege of education, but a lot of people [00:36:55] haven’t, and we underestimate that because even sometimes when I get asked to go [00:37:00] on TV and talk about how to brush your teeth, you know, people might be like, really? People don’t know how to [00:37:05] brush their teeth. People don’t know how to brush their teeth.

Federica Amati: It’s a skill.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly.

Federica Amati: You’re not born [00:37:10] knowing how to brush your teeth. Yeah, right. So I think the thing is, actually, I think having public [00:37:15] health as my background does help me with this. I think that I [00:37:20] know I’m not speaking. I’m not saying anyone does this, by the way. But generally, nutritionists and dietitians [00:37:25] who don’t have a public health background can sometimes lack that depth of understanding [00:37:30] of the barriers. Because when you just when you learn nutrition or any other [00:37:35] look even talking about like exercise physiology, if you learn the tool that has [00:37:40] the impact, but there isn’t a public health base, then it can sometimes [00:37:45] be like, well, this is how you do it, so just do it. Yeah, exactly. And then it’s like, no, but the context [00:37:50] is exactly right. So to your point, time poverty is [00:37:55] a is a real problem. Yes. And as much as buying cheap beans [00:38:00] is cheap, whole grains are cheap. Lentils are cheap. Right. These are cheap foods. [00:38:05] But time you have to cook them. So like. And people [00:38:10] don’t have time. And the society we live in doesn’t support people making [00:38:15] good decisions. Now this is a problem is that when you work in so so when you work in like public health nutrition, [00:38:20] you have to understand the system is broken and isn’t supporting people to make the thing happen. [00:38:25] But at the same time you have if you say if you just leave it there, that takes away everyone’s agency [00:38:30] to make a difference to to their own lives. If you’re it’s a bit like the the debate with, [00:38:35] um, obesity prevention, right? We know that obesity [00:38:40] is a multifactorial, complex condition that is heavily influenced by the environment. [00:38:45] But if you tell everyone it’s not your fault, it’s the environment that completely [00:38:50] removes agency for people making difference to their own autonomy.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly 100%.

Federica Amati: So with [00:38:55] nutrition, it’s like there’s a fine balance of let’s acknowledge the system is broken, that, [00:39:00] you know, more than 65% of our calories come from ultra processed foods. [00:39:05] That it’s much easier to buy fast foods and foods that lack any [00:39:10] sort of benefit than it is to buy fresh foods, or at least foods that are processed that [00:39:15] are good for you. So we live in a food environment that doesn’t support our health, [00:39:20] and it’s not. And when I say that often people think it can’t just be that. [00:39:25] But actually when you look at other countries in Europe that don’t that do it better, Romania, [00:39:30] Italy, they just have way less of this food available. Correct. So by simply [00:39:35] changing the environment and changing what’s available, you automatically change what people are eating [00:39:40] because they can’t access it.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a bit unfair to ask an Italian this year because I [00:39:45] know which way you’re going to fall. But I might imagine when I went to Italy, I had bread, pasta, pizza [00:39:50] and didn’t feel as heavy and and bloated as when I have bread, pasta, [00:39:55] pizza right here. Is that just to do with, like, better ingredients?

Federica Amati: I mean, probably because you’re on a holiday, but it’s [00:40:00] like.

Payman Langroudi: No, I was eating things that.

Rhona Eskander: I knew generally aren’t seen as like an obese nation, [00:40:05] but they’re very cool. Yeah, yeah, but it’s a very carb heavy diet. Yeah.

Federica Amati: Yeah it is. But you [00:40:10] know what’s interesting? So like when we think about healthy diets, the healthiest diets in the world are carbohydrate [00:40:15] rich diets, high carb diets like the Mediterranean diet, the blue zones, diets, [00:40:20] they’re all high carbohydrate diets. The problem is what you’re touching on the quality of the carbohydrate. [00:40:25] So when we talk about high carbohydrate diets, let’s take like the Okinawan [00:40:30] diet, 80% of their calories come from purple sweet potatoes 80%. [00:40:35] That’s huge right. And then with that, they’re having vegetables. Pulses like what [00:40:40] they’re eating is all high quality carbohydrates. What you get [00:40:45] in Italy is we certainly the culture there means that pasta and bread are made with [00:40:50] durum wheat flours. They tend to be less processed and they’re made from scratch. So [00:40:55] even if the shop bought pasta in Italy. Italian shop pasta is higher quality. [00:41:00] It’s like when you look at the composition. Nutritional composition in it. It’s a better pasta, [00:41:05] higher in protein, higher in fibre, lower glycemic load compared to, say, like a quick cooked [00:41:10] pasta made for the UK market, which is a shame, but it does make a difference. [00:41:15] So like the quality of the carbohydrate is the key. It’s not actually, [00:41:20] carbs are not the the devil fibre is a carbohydrate, [00:41:25] and fibre is a single ingredient that we’re lacking. 95% of adults are lacking [00:41:30] fibre, don’t reach the recommended 30g a day, let alone exceeding it. The [00:41:35] average UK adult eats 18g of fibre a day. That’s what we recommend for a four year old, [00:41:40] right? So demonising carbohydrates doesn’t actually serve [00:41:45] us in trying to improve health. You ask me, what are the three things you could wish everyone would do would do more of. And I said, I basically [00:41:50] said, eat more carbohydrate rich foods whole grains, pulses, nuts and seeds, right? They’re all [00:41:55] carbohydrate rich foods. So we have to sort of think [00:42:00] more about quantity of food and be mindful that quality doesn’t mean price. It [00:42:05] doesn’t have to be expensive. A high quality carbohydrate is a lentil. [00:42:10]

Rhona Eskander: Sweet potato is a sweet potato.

Federica Amati: A low quality carbohydrate is an iced [00:42:15] bun. No one will argue with that. Yeah, right. A low quality carbohydrate is buying. [00:42:20] I mean, some of the breads you see in supermarkets here are quite amazing. They’re just [00:42:25] the lack of anything in them. That’s food. Yeah. It’s like how can we call this bread actually. [00:42:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like bread has to go off doesn’t it. It shouldn’t last three weeks.

Federica Amati: Last three weeks. And you know, there’s [00:42:35] this idea that if you get a loaf of bread and you can roll it into a tiny bowl and it stays [00:42:40] in a bowl like dough, like play dough, don’t. Not a good idea. Like, where’s the food matrix? What happened? [00:42:45]

Rhona Eskander: So, so one thing that I want to ask you as well is obviously like, Zoe [00:42:50] has been under fire, um, by the media for several reasons. And I just want [00:42:55] to address that with you, because obviously, I don’t really know. You’re somebody that I trust and respect and have known [00:43:00] for many years. Um, I even saw on your stories a few weeks ago, there was a nutritionist [00:43:05] that was trying to put Zoe under fire. You you handled it very eloquently.

Federica Amati: I got quite annoyed [00:43:10] there.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No, no, you didn’t get annoyed, you know. And then the person instead, um, typical [00:43:15] on social media hid your comment instead of having a nuanced discussion about [00:43:20] what was going on. So explain to us a little bit why it has been under fire and what’s been going on. [00:43:25]

Federica Amati: Yeah. So I think the first thing to say is we’re privileged that Zoe [00:43:30] has resonated so well. So we’ve, you know, people really [00:43:35] know us. We’ve got very good brand awareness and with [00:43:40] success come detractors. And that’s like across anything. You’ll know this. S, [00:43:45] so unfortunately some of the attention is just [00:43:50] a side effect of the fact that we’re well known, which is fine.

Rhona Eskander: What was the attention? What was happening? [00:43:55]

Federica Amati: So so there’s several if I had to pick like the main strands of what we’re [00:44:00] targeted is the wrong word. But what we’re sort of confronted by is. [00:44:05] So the first one is the use of continuous glucose monitors for [00:44:10] people who don’t have diabetes. Now, of course, we’re not the only company to do this. And [00:44:15] if you look to other countries like the US or like even the Netherlands, [00:44:20] it’s not going anywhere. Like continuous glucose monitoring as a way to measure metabolic fitness [00:44:25] is quite early on in its journey, but it’s not going anywhere. It’s a good idea. It kind of works. [00:44:30] So the way I think about this is blood pressure, right? We [00:44:35] know that hypertension is like the leading risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Cardiovascular disease [00:44:40] is number one killer. So like it’s a really good idea to understand hypertension. And we’ve [00:44:45] gone from a model of measuring your blood pressure. When you go to the doctor and you get white lab [00:44:50] coat syndrome and your blood pressure is really high and everyone freaks out. To actually empowering patients with at [00:44:55] home tracking and they take their own blood pressure. And there’s now even the bracelets that do 24 [00:45:00] hour blood pressure monitoring. I think it’s a very similar trajectory. So we also know that having [00:45:05] very high blood glucose, like elevated blood glucose over time is not good for [00:45:10] you. It increases your chances or your risk of metabolic disease.

Federica Amati: We don’t want that. So [00:45:15] you have HBA one C, which is like a static measure of your blood glucose. And it works really well [00:45:20] for identifying people who are creeping up into pre-diabetes or diabetes. And cgms [00:45:25] offer a dynamic way of testing what your blood glucose levels are doing over the day, or in our case. [00:45:30] So how Zoe does this differently is we use continuous glucose monitoring [00:45:35] to dynamically test how you respond to a specific metabolic insult. [00:45:40] The cookies that you that you get in the Zoe kit are high sugar, high fat. So [00:45:45] we’re not just tracking your CGM curve over over the day doing whatever. [00:45:50] We’re actually saying everybody that does Zoe eats these cookies at the same time [00:45:55] with the same space gap. So it’s like when you’re doing the testing phase, [00:46:00] you’re following the same protocol that we use in our clinical trials. We’re saying, [00:46:05] you eat this and we see exactly how your body responds. How does it deal with that high sugar challenge. So [00:46:10] it’s more of a dynamic way to measure. So we get a lot of sort of comments on it shouldn’t be [00:46:15] the one thing that’s not true. So we have to remember that NHS provides continuous [00:46:20] glucose monitors for some patients. That pool of continuous glucose monitors is [00:46:25] not the same pool that gets used for commercial products. So this doesn’t happen [00:46:30] so much anymore. But a couple of years ago it was like, oh, you know, the CGM should that [00:46:35] they’re using are being taken away from the NHS.

Federica Amati: No. Like the NHS doesn’t do that. I [00:46:40] didn’t do it with any medicines, right? Or any medical device. The second thing [00:46:45] is, well, how useful actually is it, you know. And that’s where the scientific debate is. There isn’t enough [00:46:50] research to prove that understanding your continuous glucose [00:46:55] monitoring over time actually helps you to know how high your risk is. [00:47:00] Or so there’s a lot of scientific debate about this. Now. The science around it is [00:47:05] is emerging, but it is all pointing towards the fact that it is actually quite helpful. And it does help us to see those [00:47:10] people who are more at risk of developing, like having [00:47:15] a less favourable metabolic profile. We’re talking about prevention here though. So this is where the [00:47:20] most the loudest voices who are most reactive to using this technology are [00:47:25] the ones who are staunch believers in cut offs. And they’re sort of they’re [00:47:30] not in prevention. They’re like, unless you’re above the pre-diabetic range, you don’t need to worry about it. [00:47:35] So I think some of the conflict really comes from this difference in people who want to be [00:47:40] working in preventative, like preventative medicine, and actually helping people to work [00:47:45] really upstream before it’s a problem. And then the people who are like, no, you should [00:47:50] only address this when it’s a problem.

Rhona Eskander: So I’m going to say as well, um, recently the [00:47:55] dental community has also been up in arms for the same reason. We know that the science [00:48:00] has been there with regards to bacteria, the oral microbiome, your [00:48:05] saliva, the relation to different diseases. But a lot of dentists have not necessarily [00:48:10] been making a big deal of it because they’re like, yeah, but it doesn’t change our protocol. And Payman [00:48:15] and I had a discussion and said, yes, but if patients are more aware and they have devices, [00:48:20] for example, to test their saliva, to see that they’ve got elevated levels in X, Y, and Z, [00:48:25] you can’t be angry that now dentists are like, actually, it’s a good thing to be aware [00:48:30] of this, even if your protocol doesn’t change. Because if it motivates the patient [00:48:35] to brush their teeth twice a day, to eat less sugar than [00:48:40] you have achieved a great deal. You’ve achieved prevention. Listen, we shouldn’t be glucose [00:48:45] like mongering. Let’s call it glucose mongering. Listen, I.

Payman Langroudi: Used to.

Rhona Eskander: Have, I used to. I [00:48:50] used to have an eating disorder when I was in my 20s. At the time when I used to go visit you in Edinburgh, [00:48:55] I was, like, severely underweight. So I was a restricted eater. Okay. And [00:49:00] certainly if I was given access to something like this, it would have made my obsessive [00:49:05] eating much worse. So for someone like that. Sure. However, if [00:49:10] you’re trying to motivate some of the general public that are may find it difficult to make decisions, [00:49:15] then it can’t be a bad thing if it motivates them to eat less sugar. And [00:49:20] the problem is, is that when you have something that’s so accessible, you can’t control every single person that buys [00:49:25] it. And I think that’s where the difficulty is.

Federica Amati: You say that though, because so active eating disorder is [00:49:30] an exclusion criteria you cannot buy. Zoe, how do.

Rhona Eskander: You know if people are going to be honest?

Federica Amati: Well they’re not [00:49:35] so. And that’s something we can’t control. You’re completely right. So we but we actively say no, [00:49:40] not for you. Because it’s not going to help. Because you’re tracking.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And so that’s.

Federica Amati: Not going to help. But the [00:49:45] thing that you just touched on, which is really important, there’s a couple of things. Glucose and glucose centricity [00:49:50] or glucose monitoring as you say. We agree. Like Zoe [00:49:55] looks at your blood glucose, blood fat, gut microbiome quality and history. It’s a [00:50:00] multi-dimensional approach that then gives you advice on your diet. You wear a [00:50:05] CGM for two weeks and then you don’t wear one again like we do the testing. And then you’re done. And then we take into account [00:50:10] all of the other factors to give you advice, because if it was just glucose and some companies do do this, [00:50:15] they just use CGM. If you’re just looking at glucose, you’re not taking into account [00:50:20] everything else that’s important for metabolic health. You’d be recommending lard, right? It doesn’t spike your glucose. [00:50:25] Yeah, but that’s not very helpful. So there’s that thing. And also the other point [00:50:30] that you just said about motivation, the amount of members who say to us, the most useful thing [00:50:35] for me to motivate change was seeing how certain foods directly [00:50:40] impacted my blood glucose levels, because you can conceptually understand it, [00:50:45] but when you actually see it and you’re like, oh wow, that is.

Payman Langroudi: How big is [00:50:50] the variability between different people on the same food? Is it huge?

Federica Amati: It’s big. Yeah. So we so we [00:50:55] we published this. So it’s called the Predict one study and we published it in nature. And [00:51:00] it’s you can see the the inter interindividual variability I can’t remember I think [00:51:05] it’s 60%. It’s big. It’s like it really changes for both blood glucose and blood fat [00:51:10] let alone gut microbiome. Gut microbiome. We all have. It’s like a fingerprint. It’s completely different. So it’s [00:51:15] really it’s really worth knowing. And these are all people without diabetes. [00:51:20] They don’t have a metabolic condition. So the interindividual variability is within healthy people.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:51:25] how many people have you diagnosed with diabetes that didn’t know they had it? Not a.

Federica Amati: Diagnostic tool. Because we’re not [00:51:30] a medical device. We’re again, we’re trying to work really upstream to help people understand how [00:51:35] food can help them improve their health. Right. Plenty of other people trying to deal with further downstream. [00:51:40] So we don’t we don’t. But there are people who have come to Zoe purchased the product, [00:51:45] um, done the continuous glucose monitoring and actually noticed that their after the two weeks [00:51:50] like it gives you your predicted a onesie and they were like oh. And then [00:51:55] they would take that to the doctor. So a few people did then go on to seek medical [00:52:00] seek medical advice because they realised that they were off of the scales. So and that’s not what [00:52:05] we’re there for. That’s not our role. But that shows you again, giving people [00:52:10] more awareness of their biology is actually very helpful because it gives them the agency [00:52:15] to be like, right, oh, this is interesting. Let me go to my doctor with this and, and actually have it investigated [00:52:20] and see if it’s a thing like you can look up ideal onesie [00:52:25] ranges on the Google Doc to Google and it will tell you. And then you can go and see your doctor. So that’s not what [00:52:30] we do. But we have had lovely emails from members being like, not [00:52:35] what? Not what I bought you for. But thank you so much because I had no idea. Asymptomatic. [00:52:40]

Payman Langroudi: What foods did you once think were safe and great and now don’t like? [00:52:45] What I’m thinking of is like a margarine? Do you mean margarine?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Listen, I lived [00:52:50] with my mother. She was. She was a dietitian. But it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was supposed to be, like, the best thing for your heart.

Rhona Eskander: My mom always [00:52:55] said it was the worst thing ever since I was, like, three. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Like my my mum London marathon. [00:53:00]

Rhona Eskander: My my mum always knew. I mean, my mum is still in the camp as well of like coconut [00:53:05] oil is not that great for you. And like, you know, people are like, oh like all the vegans and everything [00:53:10] like that, like coconut oil, coconut. Yeah. And my mum is like not great. And I think [00:53:15] that, um, I think that yeah, I think there’s loads of foods that people assume [00:53:20] I even have some of my friends like bingeing on something they think is healthy. And I’m [00:53:25] like, I mean, look, I’m a real moderation person since I got much healthier. My relationship with food like [00:53:30] I have chocolate every day. I’ll have a little bit of junk, but I now me having a little bit of everything [00:53:35] when I want. It has curbed my binging, so I’m totally [00:53:40] fine with it. If I want pop chips, I’m going to have pop chips. You know what I mean? Like, that’s the thing.

Federica Amati: That’s exactly [00:53:45] it. There’s no there’s no food that I’ve done like a full 180 on where I’m like, oh my god, shock. But [00:53:50] it’s more I think actually people often say to me, oh my God, your children must be the healthiest children in the world. [00:53:55] It’s like, no, because when you get obsessive about yes, like the best [00:54:00] diet to have is a consistent diet. Consistency is key. [00:54:05] So if you can build very healthy habits that form the foundation, [00:54:10] then what happens at the top? Like 10% of times [00:54:15] it’s not going to impact what the consistency is. So as long as you’re [00:54:20] having like a varied diet listen, there’s there’s it’s not it’s not even a mystery. We know what the [00:54:25] healthiest dietary patterns in the world are. So the majority of everyone in the world is [00:54:30] going to benefit from a plant forward, fibre rich, diverse diet where [00:54:35] the majority of animal protein is from fatty fish. So omega three rich. [00:54:40] That can be muscles, it can be clams. I don’t really care. It can be sardines with [00:54:45] a little some eggs. And then if you want to, but really not necessary [00:54:50] meat and red meat, occasional processed meat literally [00:54:55] very occasional. That is Mediterranean dietary pyramid like. It’s not a mystery. It’s there. [00:55:00] It’s been shown to improve everything from mental health to heart disease to cancer. Like it’s not [00:55:05] a mystery. Right. And then so once we if you have that foundation where that that’s [00:55:10] actually like, yeah, that’s kind of like what my diet does consist of. Then if [00:55:15] every now and then you’re like, go out and you’re like, actually I really fancy, I don’t know, I really want a [00:55:20] sticky toffee pudding today. You have it. But it’s not the majority of your diet. It’s not a consistent part of your of your [00:55:25] plate. And that’s the key.

Rhona Eskander: But so interesting. I’m not going to name names [00:55:30] because I don’t want to. But there is also a very famous psychotherapist who advocated [00:55:35] for a red meat diet only. I don’t know if you know who I’m talking about. I do. But he [00:55:40] basically went on to say that when his daughter was diagnosed with, I think it was arthritis [00:55:45] from the age of like 11, he put her on a red meat only diet. They call it the lion diet, [00:55:50] particularly Jordan. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want him to say his name?

Rhona Eskander: Oh, I don’t know.

Federica Amati: I don’t [00:55:55] see the name.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, so? So fine. Payman you say the name Jordan Peterson.

Federica Amati: We don’t [00:56:00] want to bring more attention to him. That’s why you don’t say his name.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, I see. And it’s fine. So? So anyways. And [00:56:05] when his daughter, then his daughter went on to have, I think, 1 or 2 children, and she claims that [00:56:10] even during her pregnancy, she literally was just on red meat. And then they kind of had [00:56:15] this small disclaimer being like, oh, I’m not saying everyone should be on it, but it worked for me [00:56:20] and I cured my arthritis and any like autoimmune. And that claiming just eat [00:56:25] red meat three times a day. That’s it. Every single day for the last ten years.

Payman Langroudi: Autoimmune disease or something. Right? [00:56:30]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But I just said yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s see what.

Rhona Eskander: Go, go.

Federica Amati: So this is a okay. [00:56:35] The first clue to your story is there’s this psychotherapist who’s telling people what to eat. Yeah. [00:56:40] Stick to your lane, mate.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.

Federica Amati: Why do you don’t see me? What? Walking around [00:56:45] telling people like what the best form of psychotherapy is. Okay. Not my.

Payman Langroudi: Lane. Do [00:56:50] we do? But. Yeah, but.

Federica Amati: Seriously. But I’m being so serious. And so that is a huge problem. [00:56:55] That is a wealth. There is too many people who [00:57:00] are out there telling people what to eat with no qualifications at all accreditations [00:57:05] to do so, or not even any education. Like okay. Anyway, so that’s the problem. [00:57:10] Then this n of one thing like this whole it worked for me, it might work for you is one of the [00:57:15] most dangerous ways of disseminating misinformation. So [00:57:20] it’s very popular. It’s how a lot of influencers have become absolutely huge. [00:57:25] Like, look at me. You can be like me if you eat what I tell you to eat. There’s a problem. [00:57:30] The other issue is that often, like, is that actually what they’re eating? We [00:57:35] have no proof. They’re telling you that. But is that actually what’s happening [00:57:40] behind closed doors? If you actually went to. So there’s also like all you’re seeing [00:57:45] is what they’ve curated for you to see online. There are so many layers of [00:57:50] problems with it. There is no evidence to support the carnivore diet [00:57:55] or any for any lion diet, all these offshoots of it as [00:58:00] a dietary pattern to support health, let alone longevity, by the way. So all the long [00:58:05] term epidemiological studies we have show that a diet high in meat [00:58:10] leads to earlier death. As simple as that. So these this is a big [00:58:15] thing right now. Every time I talk about this I get attacked on social media. Fake [00:58:20] doctor. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Like she’d even get a PhD. Like [00:58:25] or like, go straight for the jugular. Straight for the personal attack. I’m like, listen, babe, I’m not. I’m not [00:58:30] here to upset people’s feelings. I’m not anti-meat. I’m not a vegan. I’m not trying to like, [00:58:35] you know. And by the way, most vegans are very lovely people. I’m not [00:58:40] trying to give. It’s not an ideology for me. This is not something I live. For me.

Payman Langroudi: Scientists.

Federica Amati: There’s [00:58:45] science, there’s evidence, and there’s also an understanding of physiology. If you understand [00:58:50] the basic physiology of humans, you understand that there’s a reason we evolved to have such a [00:58:55] long colon with so much surface area to house these trillions of microbes that break [00:59:00] down fibre for us. Like there’s a reason for that. And so people [00:59:05] like him and people who propagate a very [00:59:10] exclusion like exclusion based diet where you eat one one food group [00:59:15] makes no sense when. So back to public health. When you look at public [00:59:20] health for countries, low income countries, right. One of the main things you [00:59:25] try to do with any public health intervention in children is make sure they’re hitting minimum dietary [00:59:30] diversity. It’s like a principle where you’re literally trying to make sure you’re getting [00:59:35] foods from these five groups to get the nutrients required for human health. [00:59:40] Mhm. So we’re out there with the W.H.O. and the Bill Gates Foundation trying to like [00:59:45] make sure children hit these MDS. And then over here in the West right. We’re basically [00:59:50] saying I know let’s only eat red meat. Like we’re going. It’s it’s [00:59:55] backwards. It’s like what are we doing. And then worse is when they talk about it for children. So [01:00:00] there’s a wave of influencers who are carnivore weaning their kids. [01:00:05]

Rhona Eskander: That’s super dangerous. I think also the other thing is like I want to mention [01:00:10] something about social media and influencers. Do you think that, you [01:00:15] know, we’ve You’ve established that it is an extremely ambiguous title, [01:00:20] because somebody can do a one week nutrition course and claim to be a nutritionist. And [01:00:25] do you think, though, that the nutrition community as a whole has [01:00:30] a responsibility to ensure that the information that they’re giving online [01:00:35] is truthful? Because, as I said, we have a Hippocratic oath. We have a [01:00:40] governing body. You guys don’t. But in some ways, you can be incredibly dangerous [01:00:45] to the general public. And one reason that certain, [01:00:50] um, podcasters or influencers have been scrutinised is because [01:00:55] people have stopped cancer treatments in the hopes that a certain diet will cure them of cancer. [01:01:00] And I think that’s hugely irresponsible. What bothers me as well is that sometimes I see influencers. [01:01:05] I said to you who are 23 years old, hey guys, come with me and you know, follow [01:01:10] me or follow this recipe to get glowy skin. You’re 23. I hope you will have will have [01:01:15] glowy skin, because guess what? You’ve got enough collagen in you to have glowy skin. So [01:01:20] I find it incredibly irresponsible. What do you think? Do you think that they have a professional [01:01:25] responsibility to disseminate information correctly? And if they have only [01:01:30] done a one week course, what can be done about it? Yeah.

Federica Amati: So there is a there is a voluntary registration [01:01:35] with the Association for nutrition. And there’s a code like you have to adhere to their [01:01:40] code of practice. And up year up update your [01:01:45] status every year. Report on everything you do. So that’s I’m registered with them but it’s voluntary. [01:01:50] So one thing you can do is look out for nutritionists who have this accreditation. [01:01:55] You can go on the AFN website and find search a name and it will tell you if they’re accredited. But that’s [01:02:00] a lot of work. So what I always say to people is like when if someone calls themselves a nutritionist, [01:02:05] ask questions, anyone who’s. So really, the vast majority of people [01:02:10] I’ve met who do nutrition, right, they’re doing it for it for good. They want to help. They’re not here [01:02:15] to take, you know, take people for a ride. So if you ask someone who calls themselves a nutritionist, [01:02:20] usually you can quite easily find out. Find out if they actually went to the institution [01:02:25] they say they went to. It’s not hard to do that. And they’ll answer your question [01:02:30] with like with kindness. They’ll be like, of course, feel free to ask. [01:02:35] Like, this is where I studied. This is my thing. If people say, how dare you? Why did [01:02:40] you ask me that? It’s a red flag. Because anyone who’s like, shielding or protecting [01:02:45] because they feel attacked, if you ask their credentials for me, is a red flag. If anyone’s [01:02:50] selling you a miracle cure or a super restrictive diet, it’s already [01:02:55] a red flag. Yeah, but also just beyond that, the amount of people who don’t even call themselves nutritionists.

Federica Amati: I [01:03:00] think I hate to say it, but the group who are most guilty of this are chiropractors, doctors, [01:03:05] by the way, illegal for them to call themselves doctors. But that’s a side note. Chiropractors [01:03:10] who almost exclusively work in nutrition [01:03:15] and give advice. It’s a huge problem. It’s one of the biggest [01:03:20] trends. So if someone if someone isn’t calling themselves, if they’re not a nutritionist [01:03:25] or a dietitian and as I said, dietitians protected then and they’re talking about nutrition. [01:03:30] Ask yourself why. Like we all eat. So the problem is because we all eat. We [01:03:35] could all be special. We could all be experts because we do it every day. It doesn’t work like that. [01:03:40] Okay, so if they’re not calling themselves a nutritionist, then you can kind of say, okay, that’s not their speciality. It’s an opinion. [01:03:45] What they’re expressing is an opinion. But I shouldn’t change my life because of it. If they call themselves nutritionists [01:03:50] and you can ask questions about it, find out a bit more. And the easiest thing is just [01:03:55] to find people who have the accreditation and actually spell out their credentials. [01:04:00] And if they’re then if their page is giving out evidence based advice, which [01:04:05] isn’t a one size fits all magic bullet, which isn’t their own product if they’re not, if [01:04:10] they’re like, I hate to say it, but like, you know, glucose is going to kill you. And here’s my [01:04:15] anti glucose supplement. Yeah red flag. It’s like okay so we have [01:04:20] to just be and to your point like it’s social media. Social media is not [01:04:25] on the evidence pyramid. So when you’re if you’re going to.

Payman Langroudi: Accuse you of that with um Zoe. [01:04:30] Right.

Federica Amati: Yeah so do I. Well so I guess what’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Is what [01:04:35] I’m saying is if these people often they believe what they’re saying and [01:04:40] hence they go after. Yeah. You think? Yeah. The. They do.

Rhona Eskander: It’s cognitive dissonance.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, call it the [01:04:45] cure. They go after the cure for whatever their, their thing is. Yeah. And [01:04:50] so I don’t know. It’s a funny situation. What you’re the question you’re asking here is about basically [01:04:55] about influencers. Yeah. Not only in nutrition but in every area.

Rhona Eskander: No, totally. I mean, look, [01:05:00] look.

Federica Amati: This I think I think the point being unfortunately, like a huge proportion of people go to social [01:05:05] media for health. Like they that’s where they.

Rhona Eskander: Totally, totally. But also they look at people [01:05:10] that on the surface look like they have their shit together. Yeah. You know, when I was embarking [01:05:15] on the fitness influencer world and seeking out influencers to then find out they had a [01:05:20] raging eating disorder but were giving their fitness plans, but they were starving themselves and they talk about it now, [01:05:25] ten years later. And I was like, I looked up to your plans. I looked up to your nutrition advice because [01:05:30] I know what it is because people looked at them and go, they’re skinny. They have the answer.

Federica Amati: Yeah, I agree. And that’s [01:05:35] also because we have a culture that’s so hyper focussed on how you look like. How you look does not actually necessarily [01:05:40] affect how healthy you are. Let’s be really clear. You feel. Oh yeah. Definitely. So what I would say is, if you have a health [01:05:45] question and you want to ask it, there’s actually a platform. I’m not affiliated with them in any [01:05:50] way, but it’s called consensus. Nice. And it’s essentially ChatGPT but only uses published [01:05:55] evidence. Nice. So if you have a question about health and you want to go somewhere that is [01:06:00] actually going to give you an answer, that’s not google.com opinion, right? Go to that. [01:06:05] It’s going to be a bit safer. We have to treat social media like it is social [01:06:10] media. Social like. And stop looking to influencers for ways [01:06:15] to change your actual life. And if you get inspired, if you see someone [01:06:20] and you’re like, oh, that looks like a good idea, I might try it. Speak [01:06:25] to someone else. Speak even if it’s your partner or your mum or your sister. Like whatever [01:06:30] it is, speak to someone else and be like, I saw this and it feels like quite a nice idea. What do you think? [01:06:35] And even just speaking to another person who loves you might give you an indication of like, hmm, sounds sensible, [01:06:40] it doesn’t sound sensible. Or have you thought about asking someone who’s qualified about [01:06:45] this? Because actually, that’s quite a good idea. So I think we need to just take a step back from social media as the [01:06:50] provider of answers for you as an individual, because also [01:06:55] people, especially people with like 4 million followers, right? They’re sending the same message out to 4 million [01:07:00] people. It is not a personalised message, obviously, but sometimes it can feel like [01:07:05] this is my solution for me. I’m going to do that and it’s going to work for me. We [01:07:10] need to take things back into like much closer circles because.

Payman Langroudi: Media has always been [01:07:15] that. I mean, people used to sell, I don’t know, some cigarettes, the [01:07:20] cigarettes, but also like lose weight sort of miracles. Yeah. On media. Yeah. And again, [01:07:25] I don’t want to sound like I’m being an idiot, but but once again, the [01:07:30] audience is onto that more than you’re saying. Yeah. The audience, [01:07:35] it’s like. It’s like if you tell my kids, hey, if someone contacts you online [01:07:40] and says, give me your phone number, don’t. Well, they’re like, they’re so on to that. Some of them.

Federica Amati: People are [01:07:45] really influenced, I think. I think there is a spectrum. Yeah. Of some people are like totally switched [01:07:50] on. They’re like, oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: There’s going to be some casualties, right? But that’s not.

Rhona Eskander: Some. Most people are the casualties. [01:07:55]

Federica Amati: Because you have to remember it’s constant. So it’s not like it’s [01:08:00] not just you see it once. It’s like constant repetition algorithm.

Rhona Eskander: They see that. You see. Exactly. [01:08:05] I mean, I did a a video about Lindsay Lohan, and my entire feed on search [01:08:10] is now about Lindsay Lohan. I don’t care that much, but just because I did a video, I mean, the algorithm.

Federica Amati: Great work done.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [01:08:15] but because the algorithm thinks I’m interested in that, it’s now like so it knows how [01:08:20] to do that. And I think that’s a wider problem. I could literally like talk to Federica for like hours and hours [01:08:25] and hours because I’ve got so many more questions and we don’t have much time. My. Yeah. So [01:08:30] I want two last questions for you. First of all, thoughts on in a sentence. [01:08:35]

Federica Amati: It’s, you know, we’re moving into a place where it’s not if you take it, but when [01:08:40] it’s going to be everywhere, it’s not going anywhere. My biggest wish [01:08:45] is that people and prescribers, so patients who take it and prescribers [01:08:50] understand the importance of dietary quality when you’re only having one meal a day [01:08:55] because we’re staring, we’re moving. So we’re kind of staring down the barrel of metabolic disease. [01:09:00] And now we’re moving to another different type of metabolic disease where you get people who lose all this weight, but [01:09:05] they’re more sarcopenic and they have micronutrient deficiency. So it’s like a different problem. [01:09:10] It’s classic isn’t it? So yeah, that’s I think that’s.

Rhona Eskander: Why it’s heading. Yeah [01:09:15] okay. And then lastly what would you like to see. What’s your vision for the future when it comes to [01:09:20] nutrition health public health whichever way you want to do it in the next ten years, where would you like? What would be [01:09:25] blue sky thinking? What would you like thinking.

Federica Amati: So much more funding in prevention, much [01:09:30] more attention paid to life’s course interventions. [01:09:35] So really focusing on early years and then different windows of opportunity where you can make a difference. [01:09:40] Much more focussed on later life because most of us in [01:09:45] the world are going to be over 65 quite soon. Like the demographics are really changing. [01:09:50] And then in terms of where we get information from, I think really [01:09:55] making it very clear and regulating some of these channels. So Asking [01:10:00] social media channels to remove misinformation, and only allow accredited [01:10:05] and responsible communicators to put out information about things like health, so that [01:10:10] we basically have a much more, more regulated, to be honest, [01:10:15] like a more regulated system where people can do less harm.

Rhona Eskander: I think also podcasts should be regulated. [01:10:20] Now, I’m just saying it’s becoming a huge problem with misinformation.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely not. How dare you? [01:10:25]

Rhona Eskander: So there we go. Right. Thank you so much, everyone. I know we are going to [01:10:30] need to have Frederico back on, and to have her today was such an honour. Thank you so much. It’s been.

Federica Amati: Incredible. [01:10:35]

Rhona Eskander: Fun. Really, really incredible. You can find her on Instagram. It’s doctor. [01:10:40] Is it doctor dot.

Federica Amati: Yeah. Dot dot dot dot. No no dot. Dot to dot. Dot [01:10:45] t. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect. And obviously as you know she is also part of Zoe. So yeah. [01:10:50] Please look her up. Um, write down all of those tips and tricks and we’ll see you next time. Thank [01:10:55] you so much. Thank you.

Claire Nightingale, a consultant orthodontist and former practice owner, shares her remarkable journey through dentistry spanning over three decades. 

From her early experiences as a patient that sparked her interest in dentistry, through to her recent venture into stand-up comedy, Claire offers candid insights into practice ownership, clinical excellence, and embracing change in orthodontics. 

She discusses her transition from NHS to private practice, her pioneering adoption of Invisalign and digital dentistry, and her recent experience selling to a corporate group. 

 

In This Episode

00:01:45 – Early career influences and becoming an orthodontist
00:04:15 – Digital dentistry adoption and Invisalign journey
00:09:35 – Evolution of aligner treatment
00:12:15 – NHS training challenges and future of orthodontics
00:33:25 – Practice ownership journey
00:42:10 – Keys to running a successful business
00:49:55 – Selling to a corporate group
01:04:35 – Women’s Dentist Network
01:21:55 – Blackbox thinking
01:24:00 – Life after practice sale
01:57:15 – Stand-up comedy venture
02:02:15 – Fantasy dinner party guests
02:03:50 – Last days and legacy

 

About Claire Nightingale

Claire Nightingale is a consultant orthodontist at Watford General Hospital and private practitioner with over 25 years of specialist experience. 

A pioneer in digital orthodontics and remote monitoring, she successfully built and sold Queensgate Orthodontics while maintaining her NHS consultant role.

Claire is actively involved in the Women’s Dentist Network and recently embarked on a new chapter combining expert witness work with stand-up comedy.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by the Enlightened Comfort pen sensitivity seems to be the biggest [00:00:05] issue in whitening. And you know, we’ve been working on it for a whole year now. The comfort pens a [00:00:10] bioglass potassium nitrate carbon pen. Pair that together with enlightened [00:00:15] serum, with any whitening system, and I guarantee you it’ll be a much [00:00:20] more comfortable experience. The enlightened Comfort pen. Have a look at it on our website. Enlightened. Com let’s get to [00:00:25] the podcast.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Claire [00:00:50] Nightingale onto the podcast. Claire is a consultant orthodontist at [00:00:55] the Watford General for over 20 years, now a private practitioner. [00:01:00] A principal at the famous Queensgate Orthodontics, [00:01:05] which she recently exited from as well or.

Claire Nightingale: Exited [00:01:10] in ownership, exited.

Payman Langroudi: Ownership there.

Claire Nightingale: In body and spirit.

Payman Langroudi: Yep. Absolutely. [00:01:15] A great proponent of digital dentistry. Um, remote [00:01:20] monitoring. Um, for me, uh, you know, I’ve got a closer connection. Claire [00:01:25] is the orthodontist for my daughter. Yes.

Claire Nightingale: A great privilege. Thank you for trusting her [00:01:30] to me.

Payman Langroudi: We’re in the middle of it right now, and she’s having a wonderful experience. So thank you very much for that. Um, [00:01:35] Claire, uh, we tend to start with the backstory and all that, but sometimes I’ve got a burning [00:01:40] question. And for me, you know, I’ve had some contact with you. And more interesting [00:01:45] than that, every single person I talk to has great things to say about you both, [00:01:50] both socially and clinically particularly. People really talk about what a great clinician you [00:01:55] are. Just does it come very naturally to you to to [00:02:00] assess something? Are your instincts brilliant or are you just a brilliant operator? [00:02:05] And I know those things are connected, but.

Claire Nightingale: You know, it’s very flattering and [00:02:10] wonderful to hear that feedback. I don’t see myself as brilliant, you know, and [00:02:15] I wouldn’t describe myself as an expert. I think those are adjectives that other people [00:02:20] should use on judging my work and performance. Um, [00:02:25] I mean, inevitably, I’ve been a specialist orthodontist since 1996 [00:02:30] and a dentist since 1989. So given that all [00:02:35] day long I do nothing but look at occlusion. I guess I can [00:02:40] pretty much summarise where I’m heading, you know? But I wouldn’t say I’m brilliant [00:02:45] at recognising restorative need. So? So, yes, [00:02:50] I might be brilliant in one facet of dentistry in the eyes of other people, but I’ve still got [00:02:55] learning development needs in other areas of dentistry. So I think that’s you know, I think [00:03:00] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Something the question do you work extremely hard or does it come naturally or both?

Claire Nightingale: Oh, I [00:03:05] mean I work extremely hard, but but the whole package now comes naturally [00:03:10] to me. You know, I work extremely hard in the volume of people I look after, the outcomes [00:03:15] I’m trying to deliver for them, how I want the business to run and endure, and [00:03:20] also in the wider Dental networks and education and supporting networking and having [00:03:25] fun. So I work extremely hard, but I don’t have to work at being [00:03:30] an orthodontist.

Payman Langroudi: And then over the years, things have [00:03:35] come along, I’m sure, a million times, and, you know, ended up being rubbish. [00:03:40] And, you know, we’re one of the manufacturers, right? So we get this a lot from dentists where, [00:03:45] you know, we’re trained as dentists. We’re trained to be sceptical about new things. [00:03:50] And you must have seen lots of new things come along. At what point do you jump [00:03:55] in on a trend? Call it a trend. Um, you know how how do you do you wait for others [00:04:00] to try things first. I mean, you seem to be quite an early adopter. For instance, on the digital side.

Claire Nightingale: Yeah, I have been an early [00:04:05] adopter.

Payman Langroudi: So have you found sometimes you’ve been an early adopter and the thing hasn’t worked out? [00:04:10]

Claire Nightingale: Um, I think so. When I think back to my career, I [00:04:15] mean, essentially I use fixed braces and now I’m a majority Invisalign practice. Okay. So [00:04:20] and of course, since the pandemic, I’ve really embraced dental monitoring. So [00:04:25] I have very much been an early adopter on that. But that was catalysed by the pandemic, and I had the good [00:04:30] fortune to set up my first five cases on dental monitoring on January the 20th, 2020. [00:04:35] So the only people I knew how they were doing were those five during the pandemic. So I was [00:04:40] sold on understanding that we should be moving towards an aligner based practice supported by remote [00:04:45] monitoring. Prior to that, my fixed base experience was using the [00:04:50] MBT Prescription, Victory and Clarity series brackets from [00:04:55] three immunotech. And the reason I used those was because R.E.M. were the hottest thing around [00:05:00] when I was doing my training. You know, they were very they really put a lot of marketing and [00:05:05] support into young Post-graduates in the in the 90s. And the B in MBT [00:05:10] was a man called John Bennett, who used to come down and teach us once a month at Bristol and then [00:05:15] became a professional mentor.

Claire Nightingale: And then he in fact, gosh, it’s so interesting [00:05:20] how it all connects. So John wanted to nurture me as a clinician and as an individual. [00:05:25] So he so he put a lot of opportunity my way, including when I was a [00:05:30] senior registrar and the three M Unitec wanted to take a group of rising [00:05:35] stars in orthodontics off to the American Orthodontic Conference in. This was in the millennium [00:05:40] 2000, and I was selected by John to be one of that group. [00:05:45] So off we went for about a ten day break and at the American Orthodontic [00:05:50] Conference was the launch of Invisalign, and at the time, I had a [00:05:55] former lab technician chap called Andy Price, who had just become a sales manager for Armco. I [00:06:00] think it was Armco. Yes. So he was there too, and he came over to me and said, Clare. Clare, come and [00:06:05] look at this. This is really exciting and took me off to the Invisalign stand and showed me this, you [00:06:10] know, digital computer I set up with aligners. And of course I was enormously sceptical, but [00:06:15] he Andy brought it to my attention. So, you know, you know, the sequence being.

Payman Langroudi: If your attention. [00:06:20]

Claire Nightingale: Yeah. If John Bennett hadn’t liked me and valued me and wanted to nurture me, I wouldn’t [00:06:25] have been taken to the conference in 2000. Where? Yeah, where Andy happened to be there, and [00:06:30] he took me off to look at Invisalign. So I came back and I accredited [00:06:35] as an Invisalign provider really quite early on. But what was the attraction for me was not the product, [00:06:40] it was the doctor locator function, because I was just starting to build a practice in Harley [00:06:45] Street as an in-house orthodontist, test. And the internet was still quite early on, you know. You [00:06:50] know. You know, it was still dial up, probably. And the smart phones hadn’t been invented. But I saw [00:06:55] that the doctor function being found as search engine optimisation [00:07:00] with my name on it, was clearly going to be a good thing. So that’s actually why I [00:07:05] accredited as an Invisalign provider. Um, but of course, I [00:07:10] didn’t really get flying with Invisalign until digital scanning technology came along. And the [00:07:15] other thing was they also dropped the case pack and they also dropped, uh, fat. [00:07:20] So instead, you know, VAT, you know, from the lab bill. So all of a sudden it became [00:07:25] a lot more cost effective as a low volume person to start using it. And as [00:07:30] a personality, I’m definitely somebody that is, I guess I’m not alone in this being [00:07:35] inspired by reward instead of threatened by punishment. So I wasn’t ever going to be someone that [00:07:40] bought a case pack and didn’t hit the target and then had a big financial penalty, but I am somebody [00:07:45] given a target and said, oh, you know, just do two more cases.

Claire Nightingale: You might get that extra percentage off your lab bill. So, [00:07:50] so the way their business operated suited my personality. [00:07:55] So I then started using Invisalign and and I am fundamentally a very loyal person. [00:08:00] So I remain very loyal to three Immunotech even though since they’ve become solvent, [00:08:05] um, their customer service has really gone downhill. And I’m very loyal to Invisalign, [00:08:10] despite the fact that there are now other providers on the market. And I’ll come back to all of that later, I’m sure. [00:08:15] Um, so I have and the thing that sets Invisalign align technology aside for me is their investment [00:08:20] in their software. You know, their clincheck process is is outstanding, their scanning [00:08:25] technology now with the interface visualisation outstanding. And [00:08:30] so I don’t have a reason to change provider. I’m in every sense satisfied. Yeah. [00:08:35] So so but coming back to your question so have I. I of course have had tries [00:08:40] at other aligner brands but Spot their clincheck the equivalent, their clincheck [00:08:45] process seems so Mickey Mouse to me. You know, they just didn’t cut the mustard, so I wouldn’t say I’ve had [00:08:50] any. And Damon. Yes, okay, I’ve tried a couple of Damon cases, but [00:08:55] but really, I’ve gone back. Nothing’s been disastrous, but nothing’s persuaded me that [00:09:00] they offer anything better to what I’m already using.

Payman Langroudi: And now. I mean, you’ve really thrown [00:09:05] your weight behind aligners. Yes, which is rare for orthodontists. I [00:09:10] mean, I know a few. I know a few like that. Yes, but the limitations of aligners, have [00:09:15] they now gotten better? I don’t know, intrusion extrusion.

Claire Nightingale: The [00:09:20] extrusion is still a bit tricky. I mean, I think the answer to the question is that I’m [00:09:25] treating some phenomenally difficult malocclusions really nicely with aligners, and [00:09:30] they come with a whole shed of advantages, which, you know, you know, the aesthetics, [00:09:35] the convenience, the lack of breakages, you know, the computerised treatment planning, actually, [00:09:40] the fact that when I when I submit a case, I can look at the tooth movements analysis table and see in multiple [00:09:45] dimensions where that tooth is going to move, and consider whether or not that’s what I want, you know, [00:09:50] and to to inhibit it from the outset. If I don’t want it, you know, to choose what type of attachment [00:09:55] I want to deliver a certain degree of rotation, for example. So and of course, really [00:10:00] when you use fixed appliances, on the whole you’re flying by the seat of your pants. You know, you don’t you think.

Payman Langroudi: Do you [00:10:05] think if the investment was made in fixed appliances, which I’m sure it will be or is now to [00:10:10] digitise fixed appliances as well, some sort of what’s that light force thing [00:10:15] they’re doing where they’re printing the brackets or whatever.

Claire Nightingale: Yeah. Well yes, I mean there have been customised brackets [00:10:20] for a while. I haven’t, I haven’t tried those. I mean I obviously I tried lingual orthodontics [00:10:25] as well, which of course are the ultimate digitised bracket system with [00:10:30] of course personalised bases and all of that. But I found it such a fiddle. Yeah. You know, [00:10:35] as the operator. As the operator? Yeah. A fiddle.

Payman Langroudi: And as a.

Claire Nightingale: Patient. Yeah. The whole [00:10:40] thing is so difficult, you know. And given that aligners can deliver equivalent, why would you. [00:10:45] Why? Why put yourself through that torture when we’ve got a good alternative [00:10:50] while we’re on it?

Payman Langroudi: Is there a percentage of your cases that come out of aligners and into fixed? [00:10:55]

Claire Nightingale: Very few. Very few. Yeah. I think I’m an 80% aligner practice [00:11:00] now. Really? Yeah. So I mean, I offer aligners pretty much to everybody. The only I [00:11:05] don’t treat many patients on an extraction basis, not because philosophically I’m [00:11:10] opposed to it, but I just don’t see that many people with a lot of crowding. And [00:11:15] for example, I have committed to a case for extractions yesterday, [00:11:20] but it was a child with hypodontia, you know. So. So I’m not seeing, you know, if people [00:11:25] maintain their dental health well and so they maintain their primary dentition, many cases [00:11:30] are treated on a non extraction basis, the majority. So uh, um, [00:11:35] however if I had to take out full four premolars. I probably am more comfortable [00:11:40] committing to fixed appliances than aligners. That said, I’ve got a couple of cases on the go, but of course I’ve got the [00:11:45] skill set to be able to switch between the systems if that turns out to be necessary. But [00:11:50] I can think of one. I can think of one adult and one child that I’ve started with [00:11:55] aligners that I’m clearly going to switch to fixed appliances for the adult already the child to come one. [00:12:00] Yeah. And it’s compliance. You know, they’re just not wearing their aligners. So it’s [00:12:05] not it’s not it’s not because the aligners themselves have failed. It’s patient compliance.

Payman Langroudi: And on your [00:12:10] NHS side I guess there’s no aligners available.

Claire Nightingale: Is that right. There aren’t. No. That’s right. Um, [00:12:15] however, I mean, my one of my bugbears is that we are still training [00:12:20] young orthodontists in the way I was trained 35 years ago, and I think this is a [00:12:25] big issue, you know, because of course, in my NHS post, we’re still taking alginate impressions and [00:12:30] we’re using fixed metal braces and that’s about it. And I feel that [00:12:35] given the the complexity of well, not even is it complexity. But given [00:12:40] how I’ve been able to embrace digital technology in private practice, I feel increasingly [00:12:45] the gulf between what we’re delivering on the NHS, but what the rest of the world is doing. [00:12:50] And I and as a people involved with training, we’re we’re not doing [00:12:55] the best by our trainees if we can’t introduce them to all this technology. So what I’ve [00:13:00] done, I mean getting it. Trying to get it through the NHS, particularly in District General Hospital, [00:13:05] is nigh on impossible. It’s impossible. It’s such a battle. So what I’ve done [00:13:10] is I have reached out to align technology and they have something called the Arc programme, [00:13:15] which is acts of random kindness. And, and, and basically each [00:13:20] doctor, you know, dentist has the opportunity to do two cases a year pro bono [00:13:25] on the lab bill. Yeah. For, for cases with a particular need. So for [00:13:30] and so what I’ve done is I’ve managed to get my registrar in my NHS post. I managed to get [00:13:35] her doing two Invisalign cases under my supervision, which I’ve put through the private practice. One of which [00:13:40] has come from this Arc programme and it was a child with such severe hypoplasia [00:13:45] of his enamel, it was unlikely we were going to treat him out with fixed braces because of breakages. [00:13:50] So I reached out to a line and they gave him a free, free, a [00:13:55] free treatment, which of course we are doing for him in the NHS.

Payman Langroudi: Where are we in orthodontics [00:14:00] compared to world leaders? I mean, is the NHS holding us back? It must [00:14:05] be right if our orthodontics are being retained.

Claire Nightingale: I’m sure it is. I’m sure it is because, [00:14:10] you know, you know, of course we should be using scanning technology, you know, not because [00:14:15] it’s just a simple way of generating a study model or sending lab work, but because when [00:14:20] you can look at the screen and you can draw up the occlusal features, you learn so much about the [00:14:25] case, you know, you know, the diagnostic value of and [00:14:30] record keeping as well Of digital technology is phenomenal. But how do we quantify that in a business [00:14:35] case? When an NHS trust that is bankrupt is only looking at cost savings, [00:14:40] you know, and you say, look, we can get a scanner for 20 grand, but alginate is pennies, [00:14:45] you know that. That’s the. That’s the challenge.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know young orthodontic trainees. [00:14:50] Now, they know that once they get out, they’ve got a whole lot of other education that they need to [00:14:55] to do to get anywhere near, you know, what’s what’s the sort of standard [00:15:00] of of care.

Claire Nightingale: Well, they’ll come out as good orthodontists, [00:15:05] you know. And let’s not forget, what underpins good orthodontic treatment is going to be good [00:15:10] knowledge of tooth movement growth, sensible treatment planning. So [00:15:15] the skills that are required to treat people well with aligners are going to be absolutely transferrable [00:15:20] skills, aren’t they. They’re going to come out of that training programme and diagnosis and treatment planning, as [00:15:25] we were talking about briefly, is going to be essential for that. I mean, it’s not difficult to [00:15:30] learn how to scan. You know, it’s not difficult to learn how to plan with aligners [00:15:35] particularly. But I mean, what’s so interesting, of course, is that people who are leading the way [00:15:40] with training and aligners are. What do you think of that? So let’s be pragmatic about [00:15:45] that. And remember that GP’s have always carried the lion’s share of [00:15:50] orthodontic provision in the UK, you know, either fixed braces or more latterly [00:15:55] aligners. So GDP also is nothing new. Um, and [00:16:00] with the size of the population that we have in the UK, the relatively small number of specialists [00:16:05] we have, which I believe are less than 1500, although you’d have to fact check, [00:16:10] you know, we couldn’t possibly cater for the demand. So GDP although is a good thing. [00:16:15] You know, when I was listening to Marina talking about elective devitalisation of teeth [00:16:20] to provide veneers, that persuaded me even more that GDP ortho is a good thing because at [00:16:25] least that kind of work isn’t being done being done anymore. I would hope, but [00:16:30] I think that. What? And of course, when I went into orthodontics, the only way [00:16:35] you could get any education at all was to enrol on a formal master’s programme, of which there was very little opportunity [00:16:40] and hotly competed for.

Claire Nightingale: Now, with the advent of the internet, there’s [00:16:45] so much, so many different ways that people can access education and and be trained. [00:16:50] And I’ve been very impressed by listening to some of the GP’s who are doing clear aligner therapy [00:16:55] as to the level of their orthodontic knowledge. Um, where I think [00:17:00] the problem lies is that I think specialist orthodontists are probably [00:17:05] on their way out as a speciality. Now I might well be regarded [00:17:10] as a doomsayer a doom monger, if that’s the right phrase and [00:17:15] I. But I don’t think I’m alone in thinking like this, [00:17:20] which is that what is going to be attractive for young [00:17:25] people to want to go through competitive entry with national recruitment, [00:17:30] to do a three year year master’s program, or maybe not a master’s degree, because that [00:17:35] the the project element has been is no longer compulsory to [00:17:40] be trained currently in doing orthodontics in exactly the same way that I was trained 30 years ago, [00:17:45] which is fixed metal braces or functional appliances with no real access to technology. [00:17:50] And then they come out of it. And then what are their choices? To go and work in specialist orthodontic [00:17:55] practice, where the fees are about £1,500. Now, remember when I qualified as a specialist, they were probably [00:18:00] about £1,200. And that’s like about almost 30 years ago. So the fees [00:18:05] have really dropped in real terms. You know they get a small percentage of that [00:18:10] while their mates who’ve come out of BDA, you know, BDS have gone on a few aligner courses [00:18:15] and are doing a line bleach and bond and charging 3000 a case or whatever, you know, so I [00:18:20] struggle to see how Orthodontics as a speciality [00:18:25] is going to continue to attract the type of calibre people that we would like to attract [00:18:30] for the long term.

Claire Nightingale: When that’s the reality of what they are facing [00:18:35] when they come out. So if I ruled the world, you know what [00:18:40] I you know, there are various changes that I think I would make. And, you know, within training [00:18:45] I would like to introduce more technology. So, you know, I think, you know, scanners, possibly [00:18:50] dental monitoring, although I’ve not had any experience of it in high volume NHS settings. [00:18:55] Um, we need to try and train people in clear aligner therapy [00:19:00] using clear aligners as a way of delivering great care. But [00:19:05] I also think that we have to make sure that what people are coming out for is attractive, and [00:19:10] that means either vastly increasing the NHS fees. No, because I think [00:19:15] to expect people to treat palatal canines, that is a treatment that might take three years, [00:19:20] you know, for £1,500. Gross. I think that’s an absolute disgrace. And [00:19:25] I think that I can’t see why people are going to want to do that. And I understand that a lot [00:19:30] of young orthodontists, their ambition is to go into speciality, into go into private practice. But, [00:19:35] you know, I don’t think it’s an attractive week to work in 5 or 6 different places, [00:19:40] you know, pick up a day as an in house.

Payman Langroudi: Some people like it.

Claire Nightingale: But I mean, my head spins [00:19:45] if I work in two places predictably every week. Rigid routine. [00:19:50] But if I step out of my routine, I just fall over, you know? I can’t remember where I’m meant to be. [00:19:55] And how can you be confident that you’ve got the right brackets or the lab work being delivered? So actually, [00:20:00] if I ran the world, I would now be looking at restricted practice. You know, I’d be looking at [00:20:05] and what I mean, I don’t mean that restricting GP’s from doing orthodontics, [00:20:10] but I might restrict the complexity of cases that it is reasonable for a GDP [00:20:15] to treat. But I think I would be looking at saying that orthodontics as a As a specialist [00:20:20] should. Care should be delivered within a specialist practice setting so [00:20:25] that rather than. And I think that would be better for patients and it would be [00:20:30] better for clinicians all round if orthodontics was you know, so for example, you would have a hub and spoke arrangement, [00:20:35] you know. So when I joined dentists, I said my ambition, what I would love would [00:20:40] be if Queensgate Orthodontics became the orthodontic hub for the dentists practices [00:20:45] around it.

Claire Nightingale: And so rather than have in-house specialists where patients were able to go [00:20:50] one morning a week or a day a month, five days a week, six days, seven days a week, [00:20:55] they could come and access care at Queensgate Orthodontics. There would be a team of people there. The [00:21:00] emergencies would be covered. We’d have the bespoke software, we’d have all the scanners. We’d be able to do [00:21:05] audit, you know, peer review, turn to each other for specialist second opinions, you know, that [00:21:10] sort of thing. And unfortunately, that won’t ever happen because [00:21:15] one thing that corporates are very hot on is not restricting clinical freedom. [00:21:20] So they’re very strong on clinical freedom. And that is on the whole led by HMRC [00:21:25] and not wanting to run the risk of an associate being seen as an employed person. [00:21:30] Okay. So it’s not going to be led within the corporates to have a specialist [00:21:35] hub. Um, but I do believe that that’s the best place for patients to be [00:21:40] cared for properly. Let’s go back.

Payman Langroudi: What made you become a dentist?

Claire Nightingale: Right. So [00:21:45] how old were you? Go back a long, long time. So I was [00:21:50] about seven years old, growing up in Durham. And one day I noticed that I [00:21:55] had what I called a gumboil. So we go off to the dentist, and the dentist says, oh, she needs some teeth out. [00:22:00] And in those days, there were two things common running through the 1970s dentistry. [00:22:05] Serial extractions and gaps in the dental chair. Yeah. So? [00:22:10] So my mother was instructed to bring me back to the dental practice. Starved. And she was to bring a scarf. [00:22:15] Those were the were the instructions. So we get there and I ended up having gas [00:22:20] in the dental chair. A number of deciduous teeth removed. To this day, I remember the dream [00:22:25] I had, and I woke up crying and I was still in the dental surgery. [00:22:30] They slapped a bit of gauze in front of my mouth, tied it around my head with a scarf, and off I [00:22:35] went with my mom on the bus back home anyway. Amazingly, a year later she got me back to go through [00:22:40] the whole experience again. So it’s been deeply traumatic. But somehow I went back and did it all again anyway. A [00:22:45] couple of years later we moved down to London and the first family we met. The mother was a dental [00:22:50] nurse and she said, you must come and register with my dentist. Mr. Wilson. And Mr. Wilson looked in my mouth and [00:22:55] said, you need to see a specialist orthodontist.

Claire Nightingale: So I was about 12, probably by this [00:23:00] stage, and I thought that was really exciting. I felt special that I had to go and see a specialist. [00:23:05] So we go off to Watford and see this chap called Mr. Marks who said, yep, four [00:23:10] fours. So I’d obviously just had cereal extractions, four sees, four DS, four for fours. But [00:23:15] Mr. Wilson used local anaesthetic, and it was revelatory because I had such [00:23:20] a positive experience, you know, and I thought, and I must have thought at 12, this is [00:23:25] what dentistry is like, you know. I mean, these men became heroes to me, really, you know, to my [00:23:30] childish, in my childish world. So and the other factor was, I think there were two other [00:23:35] things. So I became aware of going to the dentist early. I became aware of how differently [00:23:40] dental treatment could be delivered. I was always very creative. I was always [00:23:45] modelling and making clothes for my Barbie dolls and making furniture out of Kellogg’s boxes, [00:23:50] this sort of thing. And I come from a very caring family. So my father is a priest, [00:23:55] an Anglican priest, and my mother was a social worker. So human care, looking [00:24:00] after people was very much a theme that ran in family life. So you put all those factors together. [00:24:05] And also I was interested in science and good at biology, and I just thought, you know what? Dentistry [00:24:10] looks like a good career option. So I made.

Payman Langroudi: A good student at school as well.

Claire Nightingale: Come [00:24:15] on, head girl.

Payman Langroudi: Where are you? Of course.

Claire Nightingale: What do you think? So. Yeah. [00:24:20] So, you know, so the advantage of saying at the age of 12, I am going to be a dentist. [00:24:25] It’s just brilliant. Because then you know what I mean? In my day, O-levels, A-levels, [00:24:30] what you had to do a bit of work experience. Et cetera. Et cetera. You know, and and so I [00:24:35] did wobble between dentistry and medicine when I was, you know, particularly during my A-levels. [00:24:40] My grandfather was very ill and subsequently died of cancer. So I kind of had that. Oh, should have been [00:24:45] a doctor. But I really don’t regret sticking with plan A, you know, [00:24:50] so that so basically that was why. And I think what’s interesting about this story is [00:24:55] that I say, you know, you know, when I reflect on, you know, the learning of this story [00:25:00] because it’s very weird for a child of seven not to be deeply traumatised by the experience [00:25:05] I had. And you question, you know, what was it in my either my own personality [00:25:10] or my my my mother’s parenting skills and also the attitude of. In the 1970s, [00:25:15] you know, we took the doctor’s advice, didn’t we? You know, we we went with professional [00:25:20] advice. We didn’t question professional advice. And now when I say to families, oh, your child needs a [00:25:25] baby tooth out, you know, they look at me, I couldn’t possibly put my child through that trauma. I think, well, it [00:25:30] changed the course of my life. What are you talking about? Get yourself down there. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got that responsibility [00:25:35] with my daughter now because she went in to, uh, your treatment [00:25:40] with you saying, I know I don’t want to be a dentist, so it’s up to you. [00:25:45] Well, it’s up to you to change that.

Claire Nightingale: Well, I think I think, I mean, she has. [00:25:50] She’s out perfection. Me, as I think you might know and you know. And now she draws micro [00:25:55] imperfections to my attention. And I’ve told Carla quite clearly, I’m only taking on patients [00:26:00] for treatment who are long sighted from now on. I’ve had enough of this close examination, [00:26:05] but, you know, but when I come back to my own childhood, I think what I learned as a child, clearly I [00:26:10] was resilient, you know. So resilience has carried me through life. You know, I also [00:26:15] made a positive from a negative, which is the best way to look at negative experiences [00:26:20] for sure, you know. So so those two lessons from that story are very, very important. [00:26:25] So that’s how I became a dentist. And when all along.

Payman Langroudi: You knew you wanted to be an orthodontist.

Claire Nightingale: So [00:26:30] did I know throughout uni. Well, I guess yes, because, I mean, I made that decision when I met [00:26:35] Mr. Marks in Watford when I was like 12 years old. Really? It wasn’t even just that I wanted to be a dentist. It was I’m [00:26:40] going to be an orthodontist. But of course, um, you know, we were hardly exposed [00:26:45] to orthodontics as undergraduates. And I do think I mean, I have had I’m [00:26:50] now we have this wonderful WhatsApp group of my year group, and in many ways, we’re closer [00:26:55] 40 years from because I started dental school 40 years ago, which is unbelievable. [00:27:00] And we’re closer now as a group of people than we were as dental students. [00:27:05] And we were recently reflecting on our time and I said, I thought we were all bullied. [00:27:10] We, you know, we were equally bullied irrespective of gender, you know, and we were there was a there was what we [00:27:15] would now call it bullying for sure. And particularly amongst the restorative, the staff and, [00:27:20] and of course, it’s terribly undermining of your confidence. And I never [00:27:25] thought I was any good as a dental student.

Claire Nightingale: I knew I was good academically because, you know, every [00:27:30] exam, you know, we were examined so frequently and I was always getting great marks, but I didn’t know how [00:27:35] good I was as a pair of hands because nobody ever told me. And I didn’t know until the fourth year out of [00:27:40] five that we were being graded on our on our clinical performance. And you had to go down to [00:27:45] the dean’s office and ask the secretary to see your personal file. And then I got my file and discovered [00:27:50] I had like A’s and B’s. And of course, the students were underperforming, were being hauled up in [00:27:55] front of the dean and told to go off and read textbooks. Not also very helpful, but but of course, no one ever [00:28:00] said I’ve been to the Dean’s today to be told I’m rubbish, you know? So, you know, I just had no idea [00:28:05] what I was like as a clinician. And, you know, I think when you’re undermined and bullied and not [00:28:10] told that you’ve done well.

Payman Langroudi: The curriculum was to bully the students. Right.

Claire Nightingale: But then it’s hardly very [00:28:15] nurturing to then decide that you’re going to become a restorative dentist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I think [00:28:20] I spoke to once I became a dentist, I finally spoke to one of the cons guys as [00:28:25] it was, and he was saying, yeah, you know, dentistry is a pressure job. So we put pressure on [00:28:30] the students to see how well they’ll take it. And it’s a very unhealthy dynamic. Yes. [00:28:35]

Claire Nightingale: Well that’s true, that’s true. Um, and it is a high stress. It is a highly [00:28:40] stressful job, of course. And I you know, it’s taken me almost my entire career to realise how different [00:28:45] it is from other, other jobs and how we are. I always say that every day [00:28:50] is a triumph in the face of adversity. Yeah, there is never a day when you [00:28:55] have every member of staff are there, you don’t have equipment. You know, every day there’s people off [00:29:00] equipment failure, it failure, all.

Payman Langroudi: Of that having left it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, [00:29:05] number one leaving you really crystallise what you loved about it and [00:29:10] what you didn’t love about it. Yeah. So that’s one point. But the question of is [00:29:15] it a simple job or easy job or not? It clearly isn’t an easy job. It’s a difficult job. But [00:29:20] I would say it’s easy money. Being a dentist. Now, why do I say that? You [00:29:25] can get an average person, not an extraordinary person like you or someone else. [00:29:30] An average person who doesn’t push the boundaries, doesn’t do anything out of the ordinary. [00:29:35] And he could make, I don’t know, let’s just throw a number out £250,000 a year. Owning his own [00:29:40] general practice. Yeah. In any other field, that average [00:29:45] person would not be doing that would not be doing that. It would be an extraordinary. People [00:29:50] in other fields make good money, you know. But let’s say that same [00:29:55] character said, oh, I’m interested in marketing. Yes. You’d have to be. You’d have to be head of marketing [00:30:00] for marketing for some major conglomerate to make £250,000. And so it’s not an easy job [00:30:05] at all. It’s a difficult job. It’s a backbreaking job. It’s a stressful job. You’ve got the legal side. You’ve [00:30:10] got the patience. You’re on the stage all the time. All of those things are true.

Claire Nightingale: Yes, but.

Payman Langroudi: It pays. [00:30:15]

Claire Nightingale: Well. And I mean, I think that that’s the point which [00:30:20] we can extrapolate from that is about the selection criteria for Dental students. [00:30:25] Perhaps, you know, because when I went to dental school, the the offer was a B and [00:30:30] two C’s. Yeah. Me too. And the, the academic staff said that dental students, since [00:30:35] they, since they’d raised the entry requirements from like two E’s. Dental [00:30:40] students were not so much fun anymore. You know, they’d had a lot more laughs with the rugby playing [00:30:45] men who got who got in on two E’s. And now, of course, it’s extraordinary, [00:30:50] you know? And the problem is, is that I believe that actually what you need to be to be a [00:30:55] good dentist is you need to have emotional intelligence and a good pair of hands [00:31:00] and be resilient. And you don’t have to remember the Krebs cycle. You know, and so I [00:31:05] do think we are we’ve set the bar way too high to get [00:31:10] the right people in for dentistry. And and I do [00:31:15] also, again, you know, one of my worries is about the geographic variation, because I understand that now [00:31:20] 50% of undergraduates for dentistry and medicine come from London, you know, and apparently [00:31:25] so.

Claire Nightingale: And of course, London has great schools, you know, nationally, you know, [00:31:30] outperforms in academic performance compared to the rest of the country. But as people gravitate back to where they [00:31:35] grew up and where their families are, how how are the mining communities of the North East going to [00:31:40] be served? You know, where this is the problem. And I think that, you know, if I [00:31:45] could rule the world, then I would be selecting people on the basis of emotional [00:31:50] intelligence, empathy, being, wanting to care for people [00:31:55] and geographically appropriate as well. You know, because when I was at dental school, we had at least three [00:32:00] young lads who were from mining communities who had come and done really well and got their B [00:32:05] in two CS and then went back and served their mining communities. And that’s what we [00:32:10] need. We need people like them to be good dentists. So you’re right, you know, you’re right in [00:32:15] this in the sense that we don’t need academic geniuses to be dentists, but we do need some really solid, [00:32:20] grounded people who have got big hearts.

Payman Langroudi: I think the emotional intelligence [00:32:25] piece is super important. And you’re involved in training orthodontists. There isn’t [00:32:30] any training in it. Or is it something that can’t be trained?

Claire Nightingale: Oh, that’s [00:32:35] a big question.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so important. I mean, the way you handle your patients [00:32:40] and staff and call it suppliers or your stakeholders emotionally, [00:32:45] really, I think is the key difference between successful or maybe a great dentist and a [00:32:50] good dentist. You know, it’s that extra piece. Yeah. And there wasn’t a wasn’t a mention of [00:32:55] it in dental school.

Claire Nightingale: No no, no. I’m not the right person to answer [00:33:00] the question about whether you can train people to be empathetic and have emotional intelligence. Clearly people [00:33:05] in training. But I need to need to know that. But it’s certainly an essential. I mean, you know, [00:33:10] I certainly don’t get it right all the time. And sometimes I just don’t have the stamina to get it right all the [00:33:15] time. But fundamentally, it’s one of the core skills for, for for life [00:33:20] for life in general, isn’t it? Dealing with people, you know. Full stop.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [00:33:25] Let’s talk about private practice. So when you decided to make the leap, and that was [00:33:30] kind of a little later on for you, right? In your 40s.

Claire Nightingale: You mean in terms of ownership? [00:33:35] Yeah. Oh, really? Late in life.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you leave it so long?

Claire Nightingale: Oh, because the right [00:33:40] deal didn’t come across my timeline. So, you know, did you have.

Payman Langroudi: A very clear understanding [00:33:45] of what the right deal was?

Claire Nightingale: Well, I quickly learned what the wrong deal was.

Payman Langroudi: Tell [00:33:50] the story. Tell the.

Claire Nightingale: Stories. Okay, so I mean, I think [00:33:55] that there’s so much that’s interesting about practice, ownership and ambition. [00:34:00] Actually, you know, so if we go back 40 years ago and what was the Dental landscape? Well, [00:34:05] dentists tended to be single handed individuals working from the front room of their own home. [00:34:10] You know, we weren’t allowed to advertise. Um, you know, [00:34:15] I know there were those sorts of restrictions anyway. And, of course, anybody [00:34:20] could. Anybody could set up a practice anywhere under the NHS. Right. [00:34:25] So people were used to working by themselves. They just worked out of residential properties [00:34:30] that we didn’t have high street dentists. And remember that NHS that goodwill [00:34:35] sold for a pound. So you know so I have been chuckling to myself at [00:34:40] remembering my two closest friends from dental school when they bought their first practice. Well, their [00:34:45] only practice, actually. They bought a practice in a fabulous location in Jesmond in Newcastle. [00:34:50] They bought it bought it for a pound and the building cost like, say 60,000. Right. [00:34:55] And and of course, they lived above the shop for a while and they, they made, made they converted [00:35:00] it into a beautiful private practice in the end. But when they took me round to view it, it was an old standard NHS [00:35:05] practice. And the waiting area was the corridor by the staircase. A few old [00:35:10] dining chairs shoved in a row, and the only thing that was on the wall to [00:35:15] welcome the patients was a skull with a fag hanging out of its mouth. That said, smoking kills, [00:35:20] you know. And I can contrast that now to, you [00:35:25] know, I was the judge at the private dentistry awards where the the winning, the winning practice. [00:35:30] His mission was to make it look like a high quality hotel from Dubai.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:35:35] Black Swan.

Claire Nightingale: Yes, I think I think that would be it, you know, up in Glasgow.

Payman Langroudi: Or Glasgow.

Claire Nightingale: Or [00:35:40] Scotland, certainly. Anyway, unfortunately, I can’t remember the name. That’s embarrassing. But, you know, I [00:35:45] do remember being hugely impressed. But when you look where dentistry has gone. It’s phenomenal. [00:35:50] And so at the point I’m and you know, no one until 2006, Corporatisation didn’t [00:35:55] really exist. You know, the changes in the regulations. And now, of course, you know, we [00:36:00] all expected to make money from treating patients, didn’t we? So, you know, it was high volume churn [00:36:05] or low volume churn and high prices. Yeah. That’s how we made our money as dentists. Nobody [00:36:10] expected when they came out of dental school in the 80s, that you’d make money from the value [00:36:15] of your business, you know, you know, and now, you know, the thought of buying and selling practices to make a [00:36:20] margin. I mean, you know, that is just alien to my way of thinking, because I came out [00:36:25] of a generation that expected dentists to be single handed operators working out [00:36:30] of a front room of a house. So why I’m telling you, all this is talking about my ambition, [00:36:35] I suppose, because of course, I never had the [00:36:40] imagination that people would own more than one practice, or that you would build up a chain of [00:36:45] practices.

Claire Nightingale: It was Unimaginable to me. And so when I qualified, you know, [00:36:50] what my landscape looked like was a hospital career or going into [00:36:55] private, going into practice and being. I am ambitious, and [00:37:00] I wanted a foot in both camps, you know, and, and, and and of course, quite a lot of people [00:37:05] now have a foot in both camps, but at the time people tend to be full time either way. Yeah. So [00:37:10] I always and so if we come back to Mr. Wilson, my very first dentist, he, he owned his own [00:37:15] practice. So yes, I always saw practice ownership as something that I wanted to do. Um, but of course, [00:37:20] when you do a long period of extended training, as I did, I didn’t come out as a specialist [00:37:25] orthodontist until over the age of 30, you know, and I did my senior registrar training, which [00:37:30] was four years after that. So I managed to time my first child with the [00:37:35] good fortune of being about 6 or 7 months pregnant as I as I.

Payman Langroudi: Set my.

Claire Nightingale: Time. [00:37:40] No, no, I met my future husband in Bristol, and then we moved back to London because we [00:37:45] felt he’s not a dentist. He’s a surveyor. Okay. But we felt that London was the best place that [00:37:50] we could have an equal shot at a career. So we gravitated back to the South East, and it was difficult. It was difficult [00:37:55] for me to get a job, actually, because I wasn’t a London girl. I wasn’t a London undergraduate, I wasn’t a London postgraduate. [00:38:00] And that’s where national recruitment really comes into its own, eliminating those prejudices. [00:38:05] Anyway, on my third attempt, I got a senior registrar post, so I had [00:38:10] to wait a couple of years to get that. So by the time I had my first child, it was a [00:38:15] week before my 35th birthday, you know? And in fact, I’m going to jump [00:38:20] ahead because, you know, at the end of this you’ll ask me about advice. But, you know, one of my pieces [00:38:25] of advice as a woman is to and not so different for [00:38:30] men. Men have obviously a bit more time on their side, but I would say time your family on the [00:38:35] age you want to be when you have your last child, not your first. I mean, your first is important, but we you know, if you leave the first [00:38:40] too late, you may not get the second, you know, and I was very lucky that I managed [00:38:45] to have three children. So what it means, what I’m trying to say by all of this is that, you know, as a professional [00:38:50] woman, if you are, you know, you’ve got an extended period of training, then you want, [00:38:55] you know, you’re competitive and you want a foot in two camps, you know, and then you want a family and you want more than one [00:39:00] child.

Claire Nightingale: You know, all of a sudden you’re in your 40s before [00:39:05] you are and not having a Dental spouse as well. So I didn’t have a [00:39:10] partner that was securing a practice on my behalf, so I had to do it by myself, you [00:39:15] know. So yes. And then my ambition, you see, because I’d met John [00:39:20] Bennett, the B and m t at Bristol. My ambition he had said to me that with my [00:39:25] he said, you’ve got a great pair of hands. And by the way, you speak with patients and their parents, you’d do really [00:39:30] well in private practice. So, so the bar got raised again because I would have come out thinking [00:39:35] NHS practice was fine, but all of a sudden I had this West End practitioner suggesting to me that [00:39:40] I would be good in the in the West End. So I kind of thought, oh, well, Harley Street, you know, sounds all right. So [00:39:45] I had an ambition to follow John and um, and then, of course, you know, you [00:39:50] look at partnerships and anyway, it’s very difficult. So what I’m saying [00:39:55] is, is that I had eggs in a lot of baskets, and I was waiting to see which one came up [00:40:00] first. And ironically, the first opportunity that came my way, [00:40:05] um, I was working in an NHS practice in North London, and it was just as the contracts [00:40:10] were about to change. We were told in 2003 that the contracts were changing in 2006. [00:40:15] So I thought, oh, right, I need to get my own practice really quickly because I could see that the valuations would [00:40:20] rocket.

Payman Langroudi: Why? Why were you so sure? Because of the change in my business [00:40:25] instinct.

Claire Nightingale: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course.

Claire Nightingale: Okay. So you know, prior, [00:40:30] remember that prior to 2006, NHS dentistry was an absolute [00:40:35] gold mine. You know, you could and particularly orthodontics and you know, there’s a there’s a whole host of young men [00:40:40] that built up fabulous, you know, large grossing practices very quickly [00:40:45] after coming out of specialist training. Yeah. So anyone under the NHS under the [00:40:50] age of 18 could have treatment for free. You know, there was no limit to how much you could gross. [00:40:55] Um, and you could work 6 or 7 days a week, you know, and [00:41:00] of course. So of course. And it was the explosion in the NHS orthodontic spend that [00:41:05] brought this to the attention of the government. And I thought they’ve got a cash limit this we’ve got, we’ve got to limit our liability. So [00:41:10] that’s when they introduced there were so many changes, you know they introduced ITN, [00:41:15] they introduced contracts and contracts then had to be competitive. You had to bid for them, you know, and they [00:41:20] also changed the ownership of practices and said anybody could own a practice. You didn’t have to be a dentist. So there [00:41:25] were massive changes happened that then changed the landscape of dentistry [00:41:30] to what it is now. Now, you know. So there I was thinking, right, [00:41:35] okay, so it’s 2003.

Payman Langroudi: Get on with.

Claire Nightingale: It. Yeah, I’ve got three years before I. [00:41:40] The opportunity is lost. And then, of course, when you’ve got more demand than supply, [00:41:45] you know, so more purchases for less for the same number of practices. Of course the valuation is going [00:41:50] to go up and then you can’t just go off and set up a squat under the NHS, you know. [00:41:55] So, you know, it was a no brainer to see that we, you know, that if you didn’t have a practice, you were [00:42:00] going to be potentially really screwed over, you know, so so I said [00:42:05] to the principal of the practice I was in that I would like to buy, buy his practice. And also [00:42:10] he was at this point all of 50. And as far as I was concerned, he was over the hill. You know, he [00:42:15] must be looking to retire. You know, that’s what I thought happened at 50. Anyway. [00:42:20] I said, look, I’d really like to buy your practice. And at the time I was pregnant with child number two. [00:42:25] And he said, okay, well, when you come back from your maternity leave, we’ll set it to a timetable. [00:42:30] And a week later, he was killed in a motorcycle accident. So it was a terrible, [00:42:35] terrible experience for me. Awful. You can imagine [00:42:40] a heavily pregnant woman with a toddler trying to negotiate with a grieving widow. Neither [00:42:45] of us have had any experience of buying or selling practices before. Ended in complete disaster. [00:42:50] Terrible. I had to walk away massively distressed. Really [00:42:55] ill. I mean, you know, which again, all of these things feed into the life’s learning. Um, [00:43:00] but in the end, it was one of the best things that happened to me, [00:43:05] bizarrely, because had I bought that practice, um, I would have been in a [00:43:10] part of an area of London I didn’t particularly want to be anyway, you know, as you as, you know, I mean, anyway, that was my first [00:43:15] attempt at buying a practice. And then after that, you know, I realised I looked at [00:43:20] partnerships, you know, really, really difficult to go into partnerships with people. The valuations of practices [00:43:25] were rocketing and on the partnership point.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is it that you’re a lone wolf? Is that what you mean? [00:43:30] Or is it that you didn’t find someone that you would want to partner with or.

Claire Nightingale: No, I just, I just, you know, are [00:43:35] you a lone wolf.

Payman Langroudi: Very scared to go into a business without a partner?

Claire Nightingale: Oh, [00:43:40] that’s an interesting. Yeah. Well, I mean, I have rarely observed a [00:43:45] really happy partnership in dentistry. Um, no, I explored two [00:43:50] partnerships out of circumstance. Um, neither of them turned out to be [00:43:55] right. Are you a lone wolf?

Payman Langroudi: Am I a lone person who wants to make an immediate decision? And it happens. [00:44:00] And you don’t want to run it by someone else? Is that all you’ve ever known or. Oh, well, I.

Claire Nightingale: Mean, I’m [00:44:05] certainly a decision maker. I’m definitely not a procrastinator. And the moment I’ve made a decision, [00:44:10] I want it just enacted there and then.

Payman Langroudi: Claire, what are you bad at?

Claire Nightingale: So that’s [00:44:15] an interesting question. Payman. Because I will tell you off the, you know, off the cuff that I’m bad [00:44:20] at clay pigeon shooting and handwriting, but I suspect that the gist of your question is [00:44:25] either what are my weaknesses? Or why did I never have a business partner? And [00:44:30] where would my business deficiencies be? Is that really what you.

Payman Langroudi: Want to.

Claire Nightingale: Drill down to? So [00:44:35] I’ll say to you, I mean, you know, the standard way of responding to what are your weaknesses? We’ve always been trained to portray [00:44:40] them as as a hidden strength. So I would say to you that my weaknesses [00:44:45] are that I am impatient and I have a low boredom threshold, both of which are very true, [00:44:50] but it drives me to do multiple things and be an effective [00:44:55] completer of tasks. So, you know, I’m always looking for the next project. I’m never happy unless I have [00:45:00] a project to work on. Um, but you don’t you don’t.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t strike me as the kind of person [00:45:05] who I’m like, I love a new idea, but the follow through [00:45:10] of it, I don’t enjoy it at all. So it’s like, well.

Claire Nightingale: We need to.

Payman Langroudi: We need to do a.

Claire Nightingale: Test [00:45:15] on you, Payman, and see what where you are. Where you.

Payman Langroudi: Are. When you say when you say boredom, [00:45:20] boredom. So you get bored quickly. Does that does that affect you negatively [00:45:25] as well as positively?

Claire Nightingale: Negatively? I mean, it’s a funny thing to say, isn’t it? As an orthodontist whose treatment plans [00:45:30] take forever to say you’ve got a low boredom threshold. No, it just means that, [00:45:35] you know, that’s why I will go off and do the comedy or do my expert witness course or, you [00:45:40] know, start preparing the next conference for the Women’s Dentist network. Think of the next idea.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:45:45] about you? Don’t live in the moment enough.

Claire Nightingale: Yeah, yeah. I think that is very [00:45:50] I think that that is planning.

Payman Langroudi: Ahead a lot.

Claire Nightingale: I think you have got a very good point, actually, and [00:45:55] I think certainly in my early 20s, I was very guilty of [00:46:00] living too much in the future. You know, it was all about, you know, doing the primary [00:46:05] and the secondary PhDs. And then which job did I have to do to get on an ortho course? All of that. You’re absolutely right. [00:46:10] And actually, very, very recently, I have summed up, I [00:46:15] do make a conscious effort to live in the moment. I do, despite the fact that I’ve got all these projects. [00:46:20] And I would say that my philosophy now is, you know, look to the future, [00:46:25] learn from the past, but live in the live in the moment. Yeah, I think that’s a good encapsulation [00:46:30] of what’s a muscle.

Payman Langroudi: In a way. You have to train that muscle. Yeah, you have to you have [00:46:35] to actually think. Yeah.

Claire Nightingale: And I tell.

Payman Langroudi: You what, on the seat almost, you know, what is the.

Claire Nightingale: Biggest prompt? [00:46:40] It is the death of a friend, isn’t it? Or, you know, a terrible diagnosis as [00:46:45] unfortunately, I’m at that stage of life, you know, of our of friends. So there is nothing like a bit of bad [00:46:50] news to really make you live in the moment. Yeah. Um, but, you know, if we come back [00:46:55] to business, you know. And why at Queensgate Orthodontics did I never have a business [00:47:00] partner, which is what we’ve touched upon. And the answer would be that a mono [00:47:05] speciality private referral practice is like living in a leaking [00:47:10] bucket. You know, whenever you’ve got a new referrer appearing at the top or a new source [00:47:15] of patients at the top, another one drops out at the bottom and that bucket is constantly [00:47:20] leaking. And therefore I just say it’s very simple. You know, the practice never had has never had [00:47:25] enough churn to really support 2 to 2 people, you know. [00:47:30] And of course, you could argue that if I had and then, of course, I’d had two [00:47:35] attempts at partnership before, which had failed and had been a bit scarring. Um, [00:47:40] but and of course I wouldn’t. I’m pretty representative of people of my age [00:47:45] group who have continued to run single handed practices, you know, like Moira Wong, Asif Chattoo [00:47:50] and, you know, we’ve all been running single handed practices for four [00:47:55] years. Um, and you could say that where I have been time [00:48:00] poor has been focusing on marketing. You know, marketing is an alien concept [00:48:05] to me. And also on the finances, you know, things like fee setting, [00:48:10] um, realistic fee setting. I think my fees are realistic, but I kind of do them [00:48:15] on the back of an envelope, and I’m sure someone with an accountancy background would do something [00:48:20] a little bit more scientific. Um, and if I had brought [00:48:25] in another partner who had those skill sets, they might have been able to drive their books sufficiently [00:48:30] to serve two people within the practice. You know, but what. [00:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: I said about partners. Yeah, the thing that would bother me the most about not having a [00:48:40] partner is almost the loneliness of when there are moments in any, even [00:48:45] in the happiest business, there are moments where I wouldn’t say the team turn [00:48:50] on you, but there’s there are moments where it’s an us and them yes moment. Yes. And [00:48:55] in those moments, I find having partners be the most important.

Claire Nightingale: And that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Why you [00:49:00] found yourself lonely in.

Claire Nightingale: Those moments? Yeah, absolutely. I think I’ve referred to the fact that [00:49:05] it’s lonely at the top of the pyramid, irrespective of how small or high that pyramid is. So you [00:49:10] build your net. If you’re a single handed person, you build your network outside of the business. [00:49:15] So even though I was single handed as the practice owner, you know, I had [00:49:20] my school mum friend who was a top notch corporate lawyer. You know, I bought [00:49:25] in external practice management services. I had someone else who I employed for HR [00:49:30] advice, that sort of thing, you know. And I had various shoulders to cry on, you know. [00:49:35] So, um, so you could say. You could say that I was I wasn’t a single, [00:49:40] you know, in effect, I put it like this. I didn’t have a paid partner that had an ownership [00:49:45] of the business, but I had plenty of people around me supporting me every [00:49:50] step of the way. Because you can’t survive unless you’ve got your safety blanket.

Payman Langroudi: Coach and all that, right? [00:49:55]

Claire Nightingale: Well, I never had proper coaching, actually. No, I mean, I’ve mentioned before my fondness for Chris [00:50:00] Barrow. Um, and I would always listen to [00:50:05] him when he was talking at any kind of business meeting. Um, and I did join his [00:50:10] coaching program in Covid. He had that wonderful, uh, you know, virtual [00:50:15] program. But when I had a 1 to 1 with him, he actually said I didn’t need him because he said [00:50:20] I, I he, I asked him what was the difference, why would I not [00:50:25] need him? And he said, because you. He said his coaching was a lot about people who just simply didn’t know where to start. [00:50:30] And I always have a very clear idea of where I’m starting and where I’m going and what I’m [00:50:35] doing.

Payman Langroudi: We were discussing before. Yeah. Can a great clinician be a great business person as [00:50:40] well? And and there are skills that both need, you know, and you seem to [00:50:45] have access to those skills.

Claire Nightingale: Well, I think I do, but I’ve only done it on a small scale. Yeah, yeah. [00:50:50] And I mean, you know, to scale up, I would have to stop being a clinician, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:50:55] But, you know, I had I had the CEO of Bupa. Yeah. Sitting where you’re sitting. Yeah. And he [00:51:00] said when he said 8000 employees. And I can’t even fathom what that [00:51:05] means. But then when we drill down, there’s really there’s 30, 40 [00:51:10] people he’s in touch with. Yes. You know, so yeah. Even in an 8000 person [00:51:15] business, it’s not an 8000 relationship. Because you’ve got a small business, [00:51:20] you feel like it would be just that scaled. But it’s not necessarily, [00:51:25] you know, a Payman.

Claire Nightingale: I’m going to suggest to you that actually, business principles are pretty simple, and I’m [00:51:30] going to see if you would agree with me. And I think, I mean, essentially, I think it’s kind of like for, [00:51:35] for things, you know, it’s money in, money out. You’ve got to make sure that more money comes in than goes [00:51:40] out. You’ve got to pay really careful pay, great care for your customers, stroke [00:51:45] patients and paying attention to detail. I think that’s it. Yeah. [00:51:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough.

Claire Nightingale: In managing staff is difficult, which is I.

Payman Langroudi: Always think of it as keep your [00:51:55] three three constituents happy, which is your your customers, your staff and your suppliers. [00:52:00] Yes.

Claire Nightingale: And I and.

Payman Langroudi: I in my world, suppliers make a big difference, you know, because there’s a lot [00:52:05] of trust in it. Um, there’s IP involved in it. You know, [00:52:10] I’m getting my particular desensitising gel from a particular factory where we’re [00:52:15] signing off to say, you know, you’re not going to sell that somewhere else. Things like that. Yes. Um, [00:52:20] but those three things. You’re right. It’s not people. People make it more complex than than it has [00:52:25] to be.

Claire Nightingale: And I say to my staff that it’s a triad, you know, it’s the patients, [00:52:30] it’s the business and it’s the team. And we have to pay attention to all of those to stop [00:52:35] the pyramid, the triad falling over. But we don’t have to pay attention in the same amount. [00:52:40] And also at the same time. But we can’t neglect one because the whole thing comes down. [00:52:45] And, you know, and I still can’t read a PNL. She actually, you know, [00:52:50] and actually, I don’t care because it’s still money in, money out. It doesn’t matter quite how an accountant dresses [00:52:55] it up. It’s just no more difficult than your domestic finances.

Payman Langroudi: If I could be bored of [00:53:00] YouTube videos.

Claire Nightingale: If you chose to, if my low boredom threshold allowed me to [00:53:05] try and remember what a bracket meant. And what variance [00:53:10] from the budget did it matter? You know, cash flow. Cash flow. That’s the [00:53:15] other critical thing I would say that I’ve always enjoyed taking listening to people. And [00:53:20] you learn one thing from most people you listen to. So, for example, a chap who was a management [00:53:25] consultant in the NHS trust I was working in who became a personal friend for a while. [00:53:30] He said to me when I was looking at going into partnership and into practice, that wasn’t [00:53:35] very profitable. He said the thing that brings successful businesses down is not lack [00:53:40] of profit, but lack of cash flow. And so when I did run Queensgate Orthodontics, [00:53:45] I always kept a very substantial sum of money in the bank because all of my loads [00:53:50] of my patients paid in advance. And, you know, and I thought, well, I actually don’t really know what’s due to me. And if [00:53:55] they ask for their money back, like northern Rock, you know, I could have had a run on Clare Nightingale [00:54:00] Limited and gone under. So, you know, why did it take me so long to buy a practice? Because I looked at five [00:54:05] before I found the right deal, and I walked away from five opportunities that [00:54:10] were Go through.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the issues with those five deals. So, you know, there’s people who’ve never, ever [00:54:15] bought a practice and now are about to embark on that. What kinds of things did you come across that [00:54:20] put you off those other five?

Claire Nightingale: Um, well, okay. So I mean, ultimately the first [00:54:25] one that I had to walk away from in grief, ultimately, the [00:54:30] opportunity was offered to me as a partnership by the person that did buy, but [00:54:35] she, her husband wanted to be was going to be the practice manager. And I realised I’d be in a husband [00:54:40] and wife partnership and then I wouldn’t have a voice. Good decision. So I [00:54:45] walked. Okay. So that so that was one. So you could say incompatibility in partnership. You know, [00:54:50] not sharing, not having the same shared values um, and aspirations and modus [00:54:55] operandi. You know, as I said, I just like to make decisions and implement them quickly, uh, [00:55:00] because on the whole, most decisions you can retake, you know, um, not [00:55:05] every decision has to be right, but you do have to make one do it.

Payman Langroudi: No, you’re absolutely right. A quick [00:55:10] decision is much better than the right decision. I completely agree with that.

Claire Nightingale: Um. Next one [00:55:15] practice massively overvalued. You know, and back up against the wall in a bad [00:55:20] partnership. You know, being told one thing and then the reality in writing was another. [00:55:25] This sort of thing, you know. Um, next practice I looked at was a [00:55:30] sublet on, on a in a health centre, and the head lease was coming up [00:55:35] for renewal in 18 months after the purchase, and also because the contracting [00:55:40] changed that the vendor was not actually working on the premises. And when I asked the woman [00:55:45] in public mental health, who to whom is this contract? Who will own this contract? [00:55:50] She said it’s going to be owned by the associate, not the principal, because the principal didn’t work there. So? [00:55:55] So I realised that I could end up buying a practice, but within 18 [00:56:00] months, the associate could walk off with the contract value and the head lease could expire and I could be kicked out. [00:56:05]

Payman Langroudi: Did you get into the sort of the weeds of that? Or did you have a lawyer or something?

Claire Nightingale: I [00:56:10] believe you, me? I’ve haemorrhaged cash to Russell. My lovely friend, Russell Abrahams. In [00:56:15] fact, I go out to eat with him so often, I kind of think I’m just eating my way back [00:56:20] through my credit. Anyway, I mean, you know, I mean, out of the silver lining, I [00:56:25] mean, you know, I, you know, again, you know, be resilient. You know, I was on I was floored [00:56:30] by my first experience. I mean, it was terrible. And in fact, you know, I know I’m jumping ahead to deathbed [00:56:35] advice, but I genuinely got deathbed advice from my grandmother at the time, who died within 12 months [00:56:40] of that also. And she looked at me and she said, Claire, is it really worth making yourself [00:56:45] ill over? And I was profoundly ill. I just I had developed Graves disease, [00:56:50] but I didn’t become clinically identifiable as having graves disease [00:56:55] for another ten years. Was I a hypothyroidism? High hypothyroidism. But [00:57:00] my weight dropped to seven stone. Five. Wow. Yeah. And I. That was after two So. [00:57:05] Yeah. So so actually I listened to my grandmother. It was my grandmother saying, is [00:57:10] it worth getting ill over? And I just realised that I was listening to wise Words. So [00:57:15] I walked. So. Yes. So where are we at? What were the what was the next one? Okay. [00:57:20] Next one. Okay. So the next one, I mean basically overvalued [00:57:25] goodwill, you know, because as I said, I’d missed the boat, although I had had an ambition to buy [00:57:30] a practice by 2006, I’d missed the boat.

Claire Nightingale: And indeed, I was absolutely [00:57:35] right. Valuations rocketed, you know. So one practice I was offered, the [00:57:40] NHS goodwill was, let’s call it a I think it was £1 million. And I thought, [00:57:45] you know, if I invest £1 million in goodwill, bearing in mind [00:57:50] that 15 years earlier practices were selling for a quid, you know, [00:57:55] you know, you think, yeah. Well so I spent £1 million on NHS goodwill. I can’t [00:58:00] live in it. I can’t eat it. And when I come to retire, is the Is the NHS going to exist? [00:58:05] Can I? It’s going to be an awful lot of earning back to earn £1 million. [00:58:10] Be down £1 million. Yeah. Right. So I walked away from I walked away from that [00:58:15] one. Another one I was offered was, um, you know, again, a [00:58:20] tragedy. You know, somebody was dying and they wanted and he had a share in three [00:58:25] orthodontic practices. And would I come into a partnership and take on his share [00:58:30] of three practices? And again, I thought, well, you know, it’s expensive. I, [00:58:35] you know, the chap who I would have been in partnership with is a delightful man. We didn’t explore [00:58:40] whether or not our values and aspirations were going to be the same, but on the surface of [00:58:45] it, I was going to spend almost £1 million, and then I was going to run ragged between three different settings. [00:58:50] So I thought, you know, unfortunately that’s not for me either. You know, I tried to figure out a way the.

Payman Langroudi: Fact that [00:58:55] it was three, that was the.

Claire Nightingale: Issue. Well, the value, the valuation. Well, valuation, it was going [00:59:00] to be the I mean, I had three small children, you know. Could I run around between three practices [00:59:05] and service a £700,000 debt? I tried to. I did propose a way [00:59:10] where they amalgamate. I bought one of the practices and they kept two, but it wasn’t palatable [00:59:15] to the vendors, so that didn’t float. So I had got to the point. So [00:59:20] basically I felt like I the analogy was that I was a refusing horse. You know, I had [00:59:25] this ambition, really burning ambition to have my own practice, [00:59:30] you know, have it all. I, you know, I had the three children, I had the part time consultant post, I wanted [00:59:35] the business, but I’d looked at 5 or 6 different businesses and explored [00:59:40] them and spent money on legal fees, getting down to the nitty gritty and then walked [00:59:45] away over a long period of time. And I got really, really despondent. And I really thought [00:59:50] that it was never going to happen for me and I.

Payman Langroudi: Questioning yourself.

Claire Nightingale: Of course, you [00:59:55] say, what’s the common denominator here? Hello, it’s Clare Nightingale. It’s [01:00:00] my problem, you know. But actually and I did say to I had this really lovely [01:00:05] Irish nurse and I said to her, oh, I know I wouldn’t recognise the right opportunity [01:00:10] if it hit me in the face. And she said he will, Clare. You will. And then one day, when I was [01:00:15] absolutely miserable because of my dream, had imploded in the West End, you know, his partnership [01:00:20] hadn’t worked out and I’d been kicked out. Actually, that was another story. Um, [01:00:25] and and I was and I was working as an in-house specialist in a practice in [01:00:30] Harley Street. And I had my consultant job. So in many ways that should have been enough. But [01:00:35] I wasn’t an owner, you see. And and after three months of feeling utterly [01:00:40] miserable and despondent, all of a sudden it was like for no reason whatsoever, a [01:00:45] cloud had suddenly been lifted from my shoulders and I just thought, I’m content. And it was [01:00:50] the first time in about a decade that I hadn’t been pursuing [01:00:55] a dream or an opportunity. And and I still had that dream, [01:01:00] but I wasn’t chasing something for the first time forever. And I just thought, [01:01:05] oh, actually, I’m content. And then this period of content, of just thinking, [01:01:10] not trying to manipulate the future, not trying to create an opportunity, just live in the moment [01:01:15] for a brief time, which maybe that’s what I’m bad at, is living in the moment.

Claire Nightingale: Um, [01:01:20] and I recognised I could articulate, you know, someone said to me, how’s it going? [01:01:25] And I said, I am content. And then a few months later, out of the blue, [01:01:30] I suddenly got this text. And it was from this wonderful chap called Rod Edwards, who had [01:01:35] a practice called Queensgate Orthodontics, and he was looking to retire. And I just got this text. And [01:01:40] the connection again, it comes back to John Bennett. So the connection was that John had [01:01:45] looked out for me, but he also had looked out for rod. So we were all about 15 [01:01:50] years apart in age 10 to 15 years apart. And rod was looking for a safe pair of hands that he could hand his [01:01:55] business over to. Too. So he just texted. Would you like to come and meet me? Come to the practice. [01:02:00] So off I went. And I arrived at Queen’s Gate, and he opened [01:02:05] the door of this basement flat with a big smile on his face. And I stepped across the threshold and I [01:02:10] was like, this is the one. This is the one that I’ve been waiting for. This. It hit me. [01:02:15] And, you know, straight away I recognised it. It didn’t have to hit me in the face, and I just. Rod gave me this [01:02:20] big smile and I walked, stepped across the threshold, and I thought, this is the. This is the one.

Claire Nightingale: And what [01:02:25] made it so different was that, um, it was purely a [01:02:30] private practice so I could thrive or fail on my own merits. You know, [01:02:35] I wasn’t going there wasn’t an NHS contract that was going to be removed from [01:02:40] me. Okay. So it was really up to me to sink or swim. [01:02:45] The second thing was that it was the share of a freehold of a building. So I wasn’t going to be locked [01:02:50] into an upward only rent, you know, full rent, you know. Full rent, you [01:02:55] know, upward. Only rent review and full repairing and insuring lease. It was share of three freehold. [01:03:00] Okay, so it was bricks. I was investing in bricks and mortar that I could [01:03:05] live in. And rod didn’t want a huge amount of money for it. He wanted a reasonable sum for it. [01:03:10] And I think that given that he would have ultimately taken out quite a lot of work in progress, and I had [01:03:15] to completely ultimately over the next four years, I completely refurbished and brought it into the modern [01:03:20] age. I think the price I paid for it was appropriate. I don’t think it was inflated. [01:03:25] So those so it was like, right, this is it. And although it was the most expensive [01:03:30] opportunity, um, it was so obviously the right opportunity and with [01:03:35] least risk actually, because although I borrowed an enormous sum of money, it was largely [01:03:40] tied up in bricks and mortar.

Payman Langroudi: So when you’re when you’re buying that sort [01:03:45] of business, a lot of times you’re kind of reliant on referrals. [01:03:50]

Claire Nightingale: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And the question of will you continue to get the referrals that he was? [01:03:55] Yeah. How do you deal with that? Was there a was there a period where he was sort of handing over and introducing [01:04:00] you to his referrals?

Claire Nightingale: Yes, he did that very nicely. Yeah. Yeah, I went I mean, the whole [01:04:05] I mean, as a specialist author, you know, as a particularly a mono [01:04:10] speciality private practitioner, you, you never stop worrying about [01:04:15] will.

Payman Langroudi: It dry up.

Claire Nightingale: And it always does, you know. I mean, you know, it’s just it’s a very it’s a difficult [01:04:20] game to play. And particularly in London. So yes. So for that first [01:04:25] year I mean basically what happened was I, we completed on the 31st [01:04:30] of August 2012 and rod was out the door by the 14th of December 2012. [01:04:35] You know, we had you know, and what he did was he took me out for dinner with his core referrers. [01:04:40] He really charged me up to all the patients, told them they were so lucky that finally a decent [01:04:45] orthodontist was going to be taking care of them. And that wasn’t him, you know. And [01:04:50] I went through that first year. I mean, again, very interesting learning. You know, I didn’t [01:04:55] lose a single patient or a single referral. Excellent. You know, so there we go. Emotional [01:05:00] intelligence, you know, not sweating the small stuff. So, you know, treating I did treat. [01:05:05] And I remember I took on I had to change the treatment plan for one patient. And I [01:05:10] ended up treating her out in lingual braces. And I carried all the costs of that. But that was part [01:05:15] of the purchase cost. You know, just keep everybody on side, you know, don’t worry about the small beer, [01:05:20] you know. But I did have challenges with staff who who were used to a very [01:05:25] different way of working.

Payman Langroudi: And just sorry to interrupt, but, you [01:05:30] know, the way he handed it to you and and it was a different time. [01:05:35] Yeah. But and and everyone hands their business over hoping that the [01:05:40] person who takes over is going to look after the staff and the patients and all that. But, you [01:05:45] know, in a way, it sounds like he handed it to you in a very personal all sense. And [01:05:50] then you sold to a corporate? Yes. And it’s changing times. [01:05:55] It’s changing times in a corporate may be the right, the right entity to look after your patients. [01:06:00] But do you reflect on that? Did you not did you not want to sort of pay it forward the [01:06:05] same way as he did?

Claire Nightingale: Absolutely I did. So so so so let’s look at how [01:06:10] the landscape changed over the nine years. Because I only owned a practice. It was only nine [01:06:15] years. Yeah I know. Which which in some ways is a source of disappointment [01:06:20] in some ways disappoint.

Payman Langroudi: Well, just because you didn’t.

Claire Nightingale: I kind of [01:06:25] think I was a bit of a lightweight. You know, I’ve only run a business for nine years.

Payman Langroudi: Resilient, [01:06:30] bones.

Claire Nightingale: You know, should have flogged myself for longer. No, I mean, obviously, because [01:06:35] I came to ownership a little bit late. Later than average. Um, I didn’t run it for very [01:06:40] long. But on the other hand, you know, the other way of looking at it is what a what a wonderful [01:06:45] thing to have bought a business and then sold it on again within nine years, you know. [01:06:50] I mean, you know, so it feels.

Payman Langroudi: Like I lost money for the first nine years, I didn’t. [01:06:55] Well, definitely the first five years. I mean, yeah, you have to the fact that you managed to do that is an [01:07:00] accomplishment in itself.

Claire Nightingale: But but the landscape, you know, one of the many reasons why [01:07:05] I brought it to market when I did was because of the changing landscape in the referral base. [01:07:10] So, yes. So I sustained those referral relationships for, let’s say, two years. [01:07:15] And then what happened was my two principal referrals. Got an in-house orthodontist. Yep. [01:07:20] So I lost those. You know, what.

Payman Langroudi: Do you mean by a principal referral. How many patients does someone have to [01:07:25] refer to you to feel like? Well, they were.

Claire Nightingale: Probably sending 20 to 30 patients a year, most of [01:07:30] whom would convert to treatment, you know, so, I mean, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Can, can, can that sort of 60, [01:07:35] 70, 90 patients referred a year to an orthodontist, can that sustain an orthodontist? [01:07:40]

Claire Nightingale: Yeah, I think that you can. I think I think you need about 80 [01:07:45] active patients to keep you going for a couple of days a week. Oh, really? Yeah, I think [01:07:50] I mean, my caseload, I haven’t it probably runs around about 190 active patients, [01:07:55] which is quite.

Payman Langroudi: Small. It’s not many humans to keep to keep a business going.

Claire Nightingale: It feels [01:08:00] like a it feels like thousands Payman thousands. No, you’re right, because [01:08:05] I’m a high, you know, I’m a high end practitioner, you know, that charges significant sums [01:08:10] of money. I’m not a high, you know, pile of high selling cheap operator.

Payman Langroudi: And then sorry, word of mouth [01:08:15] from existing patients must be a big factor. Yes it.

Claire Nightingale: Does. And yes, [01:08:20] of course. I mean, the landscape has changed, without a doubt. So you know what [01:08:25] happens when you’re a specialist in my specialist journey? Of course. Rod retired [01:08:30] slightly earlier than his peers who supported me. But then they retired, you know, and, you know, [01:08:35] people get ill, people have crises. You know, when you’re a referral practice, [01:08:40] your your fortune rises and falls with [01:08:45] the good fortune of your referrers as well, you know. And, um. [01:08:50] And of course, I mean, uh, GDP, Invisalign. You know, we know [01:08:55] that the majority of Invisalign is provided by GDP. And of [01:09:00] course, the volume of work that’s being done in tooth straightening is, is, is is enormous, you know, and of course, lots [01:09:05] of those adults would never have had treatment full stop anyway. So it’s not that I’m missing the business but [01:09:10] but people but but but yeah of course you know dental referrals have [01:09:15] dropped off a lot anyway. So I would say so. The reasons [01:09:20] why I sold my practice were I felt, well, there were all sorts of reasons. You [01:09:25] know, we’ll start with the fact that I felt as an individual, I had achieved everything [01:09:30] with it in those nine years that I really wanted to, you know, and I would say that, you know, those achievements [01:09:35] were I’d taken a business from a very old fashioned business, that the computer was only [01:09:40] used for word processing, and it was otherwise a pen and paper outfit, and the Dental chairs [01:09:45] didn’t go up and down and back.

Claire Nightingale: You know, I just I take it I’ve taken it. Yeah, [01:09:50] but I did it in a very sensible way. I did it out of cash flow. I didn’t want to increase my debt. [01:09:55] And I did it in, in bits. I didn’t, I mean, you know, turn the clock back. I would have had the [01:10:00] confidence to gut it and make something lovely and put in a really decent computer network [01:10:05] from the beginning. But we did it in dribs and drabs. And my husband and I, we used to drop the kids off at Stagecoach, [01:10:10] and that would give us three hours of a Saturday afternoon, where we’d whizz into the practice to put together a [01:10:15] computer network or assemble a cupboard. You know, that’s the sort of stuff you do when you’re [01:10:20] on a shoestring, when you’re on a shoot, when you’re not thinking big. Actually, you know, when you’re doing something for the first time on [01:10:25] a shoestring. But but I’d transformed it from what I’d bought with one best [01:10:30] practice in the UK in the dentistry wards in 2020, I doubled the turnover and my little boy had [01:10:35] done the practice website video that I had written, and we’d done it as a little family project, [01:10:40] and it’s still up there, and I’m still proud of it.

Claire Nightingale: And I still laugh every time I watch it. And I thought, [01:10:45] okay, so I’ve done everything that I really want to do. I’d [01:10:50] learned from this experience remember my very first attempt at buying a practice. The owner had been killed [01:10:55] a week after he had effectively agreed that I would buy it from him at some point. [01:11:00] So I was very much aware that as a single handed operator and having a non [01:11:05] Dental spouse, that if something happened to me, it would be an absolute [01:11:10] disaster for my family. I had had it valued three times in four years and the valuation [01:11:15] was on such a steep trajectory, I didn’t think it was possible that it could get any more valuable [01:11:20] than it was at that moment in time. And a very good friend of [01:11:25] mine had sold his practice to dentists 18 months before, and [01:11:30] and had was happy. It was very happy, and also had told me he was [01:11:35] in a five year earnout, you see. So. Yes. So I was thinking projected forward. Yeah, exactly. [01:11:40] I was thinking, okay, so I’ve done everything I want. I’m [01:11:45] vulnerable because I’m single handed. And when you hit your 50s, [01:11:50] your peers start getting sick.

Claire Nightingale: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, um, so [01:11:55] without wanting to sound doom and gloom, you know, you need part of the entrepreneurial [01:12:00] cycle is cashing in your asset. And I think it’s a big mistake to [01:12:05] think of cashing in an asset as a stage of life thing as opposed to a valuation [01:12:10] thing. Yeah. So, you know, I think, you know, and I do and so [01:12:15] I just so I thought well okay so I’ve got an I’ve got, I’ve got a really valuable asset. [01:12:20] But the value is all about personal to me. It’s all about me. So if anything happens [01:12:25] to me, my husband has to pick up the pieces in a terrible situation and the family lose [01:12:30] all this value too. So cash it in. And of course, I was thinking, would I like [01:12:35] to give? I did offer it to an individual orthodontist first, actually, but she couldn’t raise the [01:12:40] funds and, you know, so. And the second thing is I was worried, I, [01:12:45] I was worried that whoever came and took it on after me would be in this very, very difficult marketplace of [01:12:50] having to maintain referrals and all the rest of it. I don’t think, actually that private [01:12:55] or small private orthodontic practices have legs for the long term. And I, [01:13:00] rod and I are still in touch, you know, sporadically and [01:13:05] rod and I and and I just thought I would worry for that person.

Claire Nightingale: You know, I know you [01:13:10] could say caveat emptor, but I would worry if someone bought it from me for a large [01:13:15] sum of money and then went bankrupt or were unable to make it work. So [01:13:20] on balance, I thought it was better to bring it into the umbrella of a bigger organisation [01:13:25] where I thought that we would all be more protected. Really. Um, [01:13:30] so. And I was just, I was very fortunate that I fortunate that I’d managed to hit the right threshold of turnover [01:13:35] for a corporate to be interested. And of course, the other thing about selling to a corporate is that there’s no [01:13:40] messing about. You know, once you’ve signed heads of terms, you go forwards, you know, there’s they’re [01:13:45] not going to mess you about, you know, the the vendor might mess about. Whereas an individual, you [01:13:50] know, it’s like buying a house. You’ll get lots of people who will pull out. And I just thought and [01:13:55] I just would as I said, you know, I don’t procrastinate and I like decisions I make to be effected [01:14:00] quickly. So actually doing doing what rod had done, which was to [01:14:05] sell it on relatively cheaply for someone to be nurtured, I just thought it I was [01:14:10] perhaps setting someone up for failure if I did that.

Payman Langroudi: And then they’ve known for [01:14:15] was it dentex? Dentex dentex are known for leaving you alone afterwards? [01:14:20] Yes. It’s terrible. It’s a real problem for us suppliers because you said, [01:14:25] you know, you do a deal with dentex. You’re like, hey, put it through your 70 practices or whatever it is, [01:14:30] and now it’s Portland. Yes. And they’re like, oh, we’re not allowed to say anything to our practices. [01:14:35]

Claire Nightingale: Oh yes. That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: From outside.

Claire Nightingale: You mean in terms of political freedom? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:40] well, was that part of it? I mean, did you did you look at other corporates? Well, I had.

Claire Nightingale: I had, I had [01:14:45] offers from Dental and Portman.

Payman Langroudi: Before they. Yeah.

Claire Nightingale: Before they merged. Yes. And the [01:14:50] deal from dentex was better. And, and also my friends were very extraordinarily [01:14:55] happy with dentex. So yeah we had you know we had 18 months of working [01:15:00] with dentex. And now we’re part of the Portman Dentex group.

Payman Langroudi: I’m quite interested in the question of, you know, [01:15:05] why is it someone who’s, you know, known as a brilliant clinician can’t be known [01:15:10] as a brilliant business person? I mean, I know you can, but we kind [01:15:15] of feel like those two things are in tension. And when I listen to the way you talk, it’s [01:15:20] like you almost put the same outlook on the way you look [01:15:25] at a case as you do looking at a at a business?

Claire Nightingale: Yes. [01:15:30] Is that right? Yes, I think I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. And, you know, [01:15:35] it’s about I mean, I you know, I actually really love data. I love looking at spreadsheets. [01:15:40] You know, when I sold my practice, the bit I really enjoyed was looking at spreadsheets. The bit that I found really [01:15:45] tedious was reading legal agreements. You know. So. So I love looking at KPIs. [01:15:50] I love looking at trends. I find it fascinating. But I think and [01:15:55] I have done business courses, you know, I mean, not not [01:16:00] in any enormously extensive fashion, but I went to a day on setting up [01:16:05] in practice that was probably run by the BDA years ago and listened. I you [01:16:10] know, you always learn something, don’t you, boss? Yeah. Or, you know, one young man [01:16:15] said he’d set up a practice almost on leaving dental school so very young and he disregarded [01:16:20] everybody’s undermining him about his age, saying, oh, you’re way too young to do practice. You know, he went off and did it anyway, [01:16:25] you know, so feel the fear and do it do it anyway. And he said something like, [01:16:30] look, go and set up where they’re setting up a Waitrose, not a Lidl, you know, that sort of thing. You [01:16:35] know, there was a tip, you know, someone else said when something you know, when you’re an associate [01:16:40] and something breaks in the practice, go and watch what the principal does to mend [01:16:45] it, you know.

Claire Nightingale: So I am the only one, really, who gets on my hands and knees to try and identify where [01:16:50] the leak is coming from, you know, or opens the door and fiddles around with [01:16:55] the float, the float of the spittoon, or notices that a light bulb is out, or notices [01:17:00] that the steps need to be swept of leaves, because otherwise the patients are going to slip and everyone’s oblivious [01:17:05] to that. Okay, so that’s the difference between being an associate and a principal. And you’ve got to start looking [01:17:10] through the eyes of the principal. Um, so another course I did was run by Fiona [01:17:15] Stewart-wilson, who I think is fabulous, and it was a practice managers course, basically. And interestingly, [01:17:20] she said when she goes into a practice, the first thing that she asks of the owner is what’s your [01:17:25] What’s your exit strategy? Yeah. So coming back to when my friend said he was in a five year earnout, I [01:17:30] thought, okay, so what does my life look like in five years time? In five years time. My youngest child would be at [01:17:35] university. My parents will be in their mid 80s.

Claire Nightingale: They might need me to take them off to hospital appointments, [01:17:40] you know. Um, and I thought, so if that’s my obligation is going to be different. [01:17:45] So I need to be freed up of obligation in order to then [01:17:50] take, you know, to serve that need if it’s there, you know, and of course, I’ll be 61 [01:17:55] as well. Amazingly. I can’t believe that. So so that’s what I did. So I looked [01:18:00] ahead and I. So those were the multiple reasons why the timing of that sale, the [01:18:05] decision I made. And it turned out to be perfect. It was I nailed [01:18:10] it. It was perfect timing. So I’m so happy for that. Um, [01:18:15] but so so I’ve done two of Fiona’s courses. And then, of course, I adore Chris Barrow, and I love listening to, [01:18:20] you know, the things that he says. Um, but I think. But why? But but [01:18:25] perhaps being a good clinician has held me back from being a good business person, because I’ve ended up doing [01:18:30] it on a very small scale. And had I not been [01:18:35] so committed to clinical care, and had I [01:18:40] been had I gone to dental school 20 years later, when the dental landscape is as it [01:18:45] is now, maybe I’d have been a micro corporate owner.

Payman Langroudi: You could you could have pulled that off.

Claire Nightingale: No, probably. [01:18:50] Probably probably. But but I am, I am I have been held, [01:18:55] I have been in I have not done that because a I didn’t have the vision. And secondly, [01:19:00] I came to it too old, you know, and I’m too entrenched in clinical care. [01:19:05] Anyway, I did what I did and I achieved my goals.

Payman Langroudi: I’m interested in in your [01:19:10] day to day, insomuch as in the hospital job, you must come [01:19:15] across very complex orthognathic type cases. Yes. Different socioeconomic [01:19:20] Economic groups. Yes to you. No to Queen’s gate. No. Queen’s gate. Right. That’s where. [01:19:25] That’s where my kids go to school and all that. Yeah. And, you know, I’m sure you know, you’re saying my daughter’s [01:19:30] one of them, but that you must get these exacting parents. Yes. You know, over [01:19:35] over a millimetre or something. Discrepancy. Well, how does that play out? [01:19:40] How does it play out? Is it is it a healthy thing? Is it a nice thing to have both?

Claire Nightingale: It’s very nice to have both. It’s [01:19:45] very nice to have both. It’s. I couldn’t cope with having more than two places of [01:19:50] work in a week. Um, but, um, so having [01:19:55] having two working places is good. One definitely complements the other. I mean, from a clinical [01:20:00] perspective, actually, I get very challenging cases at Queensgate because I have quite a large private [01:20:05] orthognathic practice there. Yeah. Um, the clinical work as a consultant [01:20:10] has become less interesting over 20 years because I think the specialists are doing [01:20:15] more complex cases because of the changes in iotn Yen. And mostly [01:20:20] what I do is impacted teeth actually, which is a bit dullsville really. Um, in [01:20:25] terms of the demands of the families I look after, actually, it’s not so much [01:20:30] the clinical demands, it’s the social demands. So, you know, I might have a child who lives [01:20:35] in Scotland and is at boarding school in London and then goes abroad every holiday, that kind of [01:20:40] thing. And dancing around somebody’s social needs, you know, I have on a few occasions, [01:20:45] you know, had to do an adjustment whilst a taxi is waiting outside [01:20:50] to take the kid off to Heathrow Airport, that sort of thing. Or, you know, occasionally you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Private jet order.

Claire Nightingale: You [01:20:55] know. I mean, look, I think you’re kind of I think I suspect you, you lay out your [01:21:00] stall as a clinician without quite realising it, and then you attract people that are [01:21:05] like you. So actually, I don’t look after well, to my knowledge, [01:21:10] I don’t look after enormously mega rich people or celebrities. I’m [01:21:15] just looking after affluent middle class families on the whole, which is a good thing because I can [01:21:20] relate to them and they can relate to me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I asked my wife this morning. I said, why do you refer [01:21:25] to Claire? Why? And she said, the main thing is that several times [01:21:30] you’ve said, no, this person doesn’t need treatment or yes, this person can wait another two [01:21:35] years. And yes, you know, you’re not led by the finances.

Claire Nightingale: Yeah, that’s true.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s [01:21:40] a nice thing because it’s easy to be led by.

Claire Nightingale: Yeah, I am the master [01:21:45] of the undersell. Patients have to get on their hands and knees and beg for treatment. [01:21:50]

Payman Langroudi: So, Claire, tell me about life after selling your practice.

Claire Nightingale: Well, it’s been an interesting [01:21:55] experience. I think the most important thing to remember is that when you sell, you sell. [01:22:00] And then you have to accept that changes will happen, that will be beyond your control, and you really can’t [01:22:05] have your cake and eat it, you know? So I am eternally grateful every day that somebody [01:22:10] was interested in acquiring my practice and the money’s in the bank and my exit strategy [01:22:15] is secured and everything beyond that is a win, you know? So if I’d sold to an individual, [01:22:20] I’m sure they would have had me out of the practice pretty quickly because they would have needed to earn the money. But [01:22:25] selling to a corporate has meant that I continue, really to run the practice many ways, and [01:22:30] the style it always was. But of course there are external factors that my practice managers [01:22:35] have to get used to that makes his life more difficult. But in the big picture, I think the only way [01:22:40] to embrace the change is to do it positively and accept that you’re just not the owner anymore. You’re [01:22:45] back to being an associate.

Payman Langroudi: So does it grate with you that you have to ask for permission [01:22:50] when you want to change something?

Claire Nightingale: Well, I mean, as you’ll appreciate, I initially sold to dentex [01:22:55] and then of course dentex partnered or were acquired by Portmann. And so there have been constant changes [01:23:00] over the three years since I sold it. They’ve [01:23:05] both both corporates are really like the people that I’ve come into contact with. And a whole new world of opportunity [01:23:10] has opened up to me as a consequence of becoming part of a of a bigger organisation. Well, for example, [01:23:15] I met me, so I became part of a big WhatsApp group of the partners that had sold [01:23:20] and I and do you know, Mitesh. So Mitesh runs [01:23:25] a fantastic charity called Smile Star, and he does multiple visits [01:23:30] to African countries doing extractions for poor people in peculiar places. [01:23:35] And he posted on the group a question about feeding a neonatal [01:23:40] cleft baby that had just walked into his clinic in Sierra Leone. And I responded [01:23:45] with some completely useless information dredged up from my time as a senior registrar. But as a consequence [01:23:50] of him asking the question, me replying, we struck up a text conversation that [01:23:55] culminated in my saying, oh well, one day maybe I’ll come with you. And then finding myself [01:24:00] in Jamaica last Christmas, together with three of my family members taking teeth [01:24:05] out, which I haven’t, which I haven’t done for 30 years. Yeah, yeah. You know, so, I mean, I got a bit hoist by my [01:24:10] own petard Because I think I was a bit insincere when I first said, yeah, [01:24:15] I’d love to do that, you know? And then I found myself in this WhatsApp group and before I could say, [01:24:20] actually, I’m a complete fraud and I never intended to really commit to coming along. [01:24:25]

Claire Nightingale: Um, the first person who confirmed that she was going was a woman who I knew was in marketing. [01:24:30] And I thought, frankly, if a marketeer thinks she can be useful, then so [01:24:35] can a rusty DS. And then when. And then it was two weeks over Christmas. I didn’t [01:24:40] want to leave my husband for that long, so he came along as a dental nurse. And [01:24:45] then when our daughter heard the words of all inclusive three star hotel in Jamaica, she [01:24:50] invited herself. And then we told the youngest he was coming, too. So we had a great trip. We were away [01:24:55] for 14 days, seven days. We did clinics seven days. We were off having fun. [01:25:00] There were 22 of us. We were dubbed the Honorary Gujarat. Um, and of [01:25:05] course, because it was over the Christmas period, you know, I introduced Secret Santa and we And we celebrated the [01:25:10] new year together. But but I mean, most importantly for me, I got back on that horse, you [01:25:15] know, and my hand was shaking like a leaf when I gave my first buccal infiltration. Yeah. [01:25:20] And I was only given the periodontally involved teeth to take out to begin with. But after [01:25:25] seven days, I put in a block, elevated nine roots from the lower left quadrant and stuck in four sutures. [01:25:30] So you know it came back.

Payman Langroudi: What did it do for you? Did it feed you somehow? Well, [01:25:35] I expect I expect that my daughter’s one of your patients, right? Yes. I’m we’re talking about the [01:25:40] kind of people my daughter and her friends might be. Or parents might be very exacting [01:25:45] on the odd millimetre rotation or whatever it is, and balancing that [01:25:50] off with someone who’s just in pain and wants their tooth taken out. Does it keep it real? Did it [01:25:55] keep it real for you?

Claire Nightingale: You know, I really loved getting back to, I mean, going to make a terrible [01:26:00] pun, aren’t I? Inadvertently. But getting back to my roots. You know, I loved oral surgery. In fact, [01:26:05] you know, there was a moment when I considered doing all going off and doing medicine and becoming a career [01:26:10] surgeon. But of course, I’m perfectly happy with the choice that I made to stick with ortho. But [01:26:15] but I would embrace the opportunity to get back to doing some general dentistry. It’s [01:26:20] just that I’m unlikely to ever do it in the UK, you know, because I’m way too out of touch and out of practice. But [01:26:25] I mean, certainly I didn’t mess up, you know, these people benefited from my care. [01:26:30] And in fact, I’m off again in the beginning of February. I’m going to Mozambique, this time.

Payman Langroudi: Effective [01:26:35] altruism.

Claire Nightingale: No, I haven’t tell me what’s that?

Payman Langroudi: So the question is, it’s [01:26:40] a bit of a contrarian way of looking at it. Yeah. But it’s it says if your interest [01:26:45] is to alleviate pain, stay in South Canton, [01:26:50] charge people top dollar, make that money and send it over and pay [01:26:55] locally for local dentists. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah. As the first question [01:27:00] I asked was does it feed you. Yes. Okay. So it does feed you obviously to to go and help people. Yeah. [01:27:05] Yeah. But that question of do we do charity for ourselves to some extent?

Claire Nightingale: Yeah. No, that’s a [01:27:10] very good question. And the answer is I do both. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Claire Nightingale: You know, so, um, and [01:27:15] in fact, I. So another consequence of selling my practice, I mean, there’s all sorts of consequences [01:27:20] that were unexpected. So Barry Lanzmann was the chief executive of dentex when [01:27:25] I was acquired. And he introduced me to his partner Nicola, firstly as a patient. And then she and I have become [01:27:30] great friends. And when she knew that as a family, we liked scuba diving, [01:27:35] she suggested to us that we should go to Mozambique, to a place called Vilanculos, [01:27:40] which the scuba diving is awesome. I mean, it’s comparable to the Red sea and and basically [01:27:45] you go kite surfing when the wind is up and scuba diving when it’s calm. And, [01:27:50] you know, I tried flying a kite. It’s really hard. And I found it incredibly painful because I spend my [01:27:55] day looking down. I don’t spend my day looking up, you know? So the muscles on the back of my neck were [01:28:00] screaming out in excruciating pain within five minutes. So I never got on to [01:28:05] the water, but I gave it a go. You know, we all gave it a go. Um, but more importantly, [01:28:10] the kite. So the place that Nicola and Barry. Well, Nicola recommended us to stay in Vilanculos [01:28:15] and use a kite surfing outfit which is a non for profit, [01:28:20] not for profit.

Claire Nightingale: And this incredibly generous Swiss couple have set up a kite surf [01:28:25] school with accommodation and they apply. They plough all the profits back into the local community [01:28:30] and they support schools and an old people’s home and water, which is much more effective than [01:28:35] me dipping my hand in my pocket from South Kensington or going and taking a few teeth out. But [01:28:40] but the laugh was that this young man, who’s the kite surf instructor, naturally [01:28:45] assumed that I was a relative of Nicola and Barry Landsman, and [01:28:50] it was way too complicated to explain. So I sold my practice and she was a patient, and then she [01:28:55] said, come on holiday, you know. So I just said, yes, she’s my cousin, you know. So he, in the way that they [01:29:00] had embraced the local community nurses took me out to meet all the kids that he’s caring [01:29:05] for, because a lot of these kids have been abandoned by their parents. And this young man, Nursia, who’s one of the few with [01:29:10] a regular income as a kite surf instructor, is looking after now no fewer than 17 [01:29:15] children. Wow. Yeah. So I found myself putting my hand in my pocket when I was out there as well. [01:29:20] And he needed to build a house for a fisherman, a disabled fisherman who had lost it [01:29:25] in a cyclone.

Claire Nightingale: You know, so on my last day of holiday, I went off with him to buy [01:29:30] some cement, and we bought roofing materials for a house that he was building. Anyway, I’m digressing, [01:29:35] but the point is, as a consequence of selling my practice, I ended up going to Mozambique. [01:29:40] I ended up becoming part of this community with this kitesurfing instructor. [01:29:45] And now I find myself in a WhatsApp group with Barry Landsman, Nicola Nursia and some [01:29:50] of the kids trying to support them in learning English. So when I go out to Mozambique. So I [01:29:55] went out to Mozambique, also on the request of Barry, and he’s going out for a for a second trip. [01:30:00] This time I’m going along, and not only will I go out and be taking teeth out in incredibly [01:30:05] remote places, that will involve us taking a boat to go to remote islands to provide care. [01:30:10] But I’ll also be hanging out with the kids and going shopping to buy them school materials and all this sort [01:30:15] of stuff. It’s fine. But of course, you know, if you go on a if you if you’re open [01:30:20] to opportunity, life has some incredible journeys. Right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. So surely [01:30:25] you’ve been in the clinic now that there’s the corporate overlord? Yes. [01:30:30] I should call them. You’re saving time.

Claire Nightingale: Oh, I wish that [01:30:35] were true. I’m not. Actually, there must be.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff that you used to have to do. Payroll that [01:30:40] you don’t have to do.

Claire Nightingale: I don’t have to do payroll. I don’t have to manage annual leave. I don’t have to pay the bills. [01:30:45] Yeah. So. So what was going on?

Payman Langroudi: Have you found yourself now broadening [01:30:50] in other ways because you’re not spending the time worrying about running the practice itself? Running the [01:30:55] practice?

Claire Nightingale: Uh, well, I’m not palpably noticing that [01:31:00] my day is much different, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, in many ways, you know, give a busy person if [01:31:05] you want something done, give it to a busy person. So in some ways, I’m a bit frustrated about the [01:31:10] time it takes to achieve things. You know, so I’ll give you an example. Refurbishment. You know, [01:31:15] I would habitually refurbish the practice when it was necessary over the two week period of time that [01:31:20] were closed over Christmas, you know, and I would quickly, you know, commit to a builder, sort [01:31:25] out the flooring, bang. It would all be done. You know, now we have to go through multiple tiers of sign [01:31:30] off, multiple quotes. Et cetera, et cetera. And because I’m not driving that, it just drags. So those are [01:31:35] the sorts of frustrations that come up. But I seem but I seem to be [01:31:40] busy clinically. Um, I don’t think that I’m finding the time professionally [01:31:45] to to do anything that’s obvious in that time that I’m not [01:31:50] paying the bills. I was just obviously quite efficient.

Payman Langroudi: Dental network? Yes. Has that not come about [01:31:55] because you’ve had sort of some bandwidth to think about.

Claire Nightingale: Um, possibly. So, I mean, [01:32:00] I was involved with it to an extent before. So, yeah. So let’s talk about the women’s Dentist network. So [01:32:05] the Women’s Dentist Network is a group of, of of female [01:32:10] dentists. Clearly. Although I must emphasise at this time that men are very welcome to join us as friends [01:32:15] and people in the Allied dental professionals are welcome to join us as friends. It’s effectively the same benefit. [01:32:20] It’s just we don’t pop them in the main WhatsApp group, that’s all. And it was set [01:32:25] up as a consequence of, you know, the beloved Uchenna having a conversation with Linda [01:32:30] Greenwald before the pandemic, actually probably 2018, 2019, saying, come on, Linda, [01:32:35] it’s time to do something again, because Linda, of course, together with Jennifer Pinder and a few others, [01:32:40] had been instrumental in setting up women in dentistry 40 years ago, 40 years ago. So [01:32:45] it started off a few of us just meeting for afternoon tea in a hotel in [01:32:50] Soho, and we would just sort of just discuss what our purpose might be. And [01:32:55] it’s kind of evolved now into something a bit more formal. So our purpose is to showcase women [01:33:00] as speakers and to be supportive as a group of women dentists [01:33:05] and offer mentoring and tips and advice, and generally just be nice to [01:33:10] one another. You know, it’s a network because so often women are overlooked as speakers at [01:33:15] events, and that’s either because they don’t get asked, or it’s because they feel that they’re not worthy [01:33:20] of the in the invitation and they refuse, you know, which we call imposter syndrome. [01:33:25] So the way.

Payman Langroudi: That they don’t put themselves up.

Claire Nightingale: Or. Yes, I think that’s very, very true. No, [01:33:30] you’re absolutely right. Because we do wait to be asked as, as as a gender. We, [01:33:35] you know, we are not active in putting. In fact, I have to say, I didn’t even know that that was a thing. I [01:33:40] didn’t know that people put themselves forwards. I’ve always waited to be asked. It was only Linda who said, oh, well, actually, [01:33:45] the men just asked to speak. Oh, that was news to me. Um, so we are now [01:33:50] a group of over 100 people. It’s only £100 a year to to join. [01:33:55] And for that we host three virtual conferences on a Sunday [01:34:00] morning. So three hours of CPD. So we’ve covered business. We’ve [01:34:05] covered various clinical matters. We have done menopause because of course that’s our age, some of our [01:34:10] age group. But actually we’re doing one in on January the 19th on fertility. And we have our [01:34:15] second in-person conference at the Belfry Golf and Spa Hotel on Saturday, the [01:34:20] 22nd of March. And I’ve got a fantastic programme lined up, lots [01:34:25] of volunteers from within the group speaking, and hopefully one keynote speaker will be joining [01:34:30] us all to be confirmed, but we’ll be posting information on our various social media [01:34:35] channels about that. And if anybody wants to join us, please, you’re very welcome. Just go to Women [01:34:40] Dentist Network.com and join us through a link on our website.

Payman Langroudi: So you said, [01:34:45] look, the goal is to get more women speaking. Yes, which I understand. That. [01:34:50] Um, I’ve got a question. Have you found something out unexpectedly [01:34:55] by being part of this group that you didn’t know before?

Claire Nightingale: Well, [01:35:00] I’m really impressed by the talent that, you know, that that that shouldn’t be a surprise. But, [01:35:05] you know, we so often go to conferences and we hear the same people talking time after time. And, [01:35:10] and it tends to be academics that tend to get asked. But actually the talent within the group [01:35:15] is phenomenal. And the enthusiasm to be kind to one another is just [01:35:20] wonderful. Also. And you know, when I ask for volunteers to do things [01:35:25] or to speak, actually quite quickly, people come back. So at the conference we have an imposter [01:35:30] slot. We have a deliberate half hour where we invite people to do a ten minute presentation [01:35:35] who have never presented before within a friendly audience, you know, knowing that [01:35:40] they would be well supported and applauded for their efforts.

Payman Langroudi: So is [01:35:45] there an experience that women dentists have been through That’s more common [01:35:50] than you thought. I don’t know. Sexual harassment. Not getting a job. A [01:35:55] patient thinking they’re not up to taking a tooth out. Was there anything that any [01:36:00] insight that you gained from talking to? Lots of talking to lots of people.

Claire Nightingale: I [01:36:05] think those sorts of conversations come out more 1 to 1 in small groups. So, for example, [01:36:10] there was quite a lot of sharing that I won’t talk about, but [01:36:15] at the Women’s Dentist Network, you know, because at the meeting at The Belfry. So the reason we [01:36:20] go to the belfry is that they offer a fantastic package. You know, they offer an incredible day rate for [01:36:25] dinner, bed and breakfast and use of the facilities. So but the but the weekend expanded. [01:36:30] So what what happened was those who committed, someone said, oh, if we go on secret escapes, we can [01:36:35] get the Friday night really cheap, you know? So a number of us then committed to the Friday and then somebody else said, and if [01:36:40] we go on this website, we can get a cheap deal on the spa. So a number of us went to the spa on the Friday [01:36:45] afternoon that gave us Friday dinner to chat. And then on the Sunday morning, I organised [01:36:50] a golf lesson. You know, for some of the women staying over. So within those small groups, confidences [01:36:55] were shared. And I think it is quite interesting to discover what [01:37:00] has gone on in people’s lives, both professionally and personally. That was [01:37:05] surprising, actually, and I’m sure more of that sharing will happen when we get together again.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:37:10] I’m interested in one aspect that I don’t know has been talked about enough or not, [01:37:15] but many women dentists are the primary earners. [01:37:20]

Claire Nightingale: In their.

Payman Langroudi: Relationship. In their relationship. Yeah. And that [01:37:25] puts an extra responsibility that many women don’t have [01:37:30] onto them. And an extra stress, I say, on the relationship, because [01:37:35] my advice to any woman who earns more than her man [01:37:40] is not to bring that up. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it’s really important [01:37:45] for for a man to hear that. It’s very emasculating. Um, [01:37:50] and at the same time, it’s a fact, right? So why shouldn’t you bring it up? Yeah. [01:37:55] Um, but but not to bring it up as a power play. Yeah. And I think [01:38:00] in my, in my own friend circle, there’s, there’s, there’s examples of, of [01:38:05] it where it’s worked really well, but often it hasn’t worked very well. And I think many [01:38:10] hygienists are primary earners as well. Interesting. And I’d be interested to know [01:38:15] I’d be interested to hear stories of, you know, has it been an issue?

Claire Nightingale: Well, I mean, it’s [01:38:20] interesting. Um, nobody shared at that level. I mean, you know, people have talked [01:38:25] about supporting their husbands doing higher education, you know, so I know a number of women [01:38:30] whose husbands have gone off and done medicine, and the wife who has carried on being the breadwinner [01:38:35] during that period, or somebody has gone off to do an MBA and the wife has carried on. [01:38:40] And but you kind of expect that ultimately there’s going to be a rebalance in the [01:38:45] earning potential of that partner later on.

Payman Langroudi: But recently, there was a post, I don’t know if you saw it, and she said, [01:38:50] I’m an associate earning 17,000 a month, and my partner is [01:38:55] a man earning £1,000 a month. Yeah. And it’s all good. [01:39:00] And I was aware of it, but he doesn’t seem interested in increasing that. [01:39:05] And that lack of ambition was something around that. Yes. Okay.

Claire Nightingale: Well I that [01:39:10] sounds to me like the woman has an issue, not the man, if you see what I mean. You know, it’s for her to reconcile it. Really? [01:39:15] I mean.

Payman Langroudi: The other interesting question I’m interested in is women in dentistry get [01:39:20] a bad deal, but for me, not necessarily the dentist. [01:39:25]

Claire Nightingale: In what regard do you mean? And in [01:39:30] what way do you think the deal is bad?

Payman Langroudi: If you if you read, if you go on their on their on their [01:39:35] groups, sometimes they get some really awful treatment by their bosses. [01:39:40]

Claire Nightingale: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: The career prospects are limited in terms of progression [01:39:45] and that cohort, you know it. And you said, you know, [01:39:50] DBS are welcomed as friends or whatever it was. And you’re right. Look, [01:39:55] the women putting themselves up as speakers is an absolute issue that needs addressing. But I think this issue [01:40:00] also needs addressing. If only some of the hygienist stories I’ve heard, some of the nurse stories, I’ve heard terrible [01:40:05] stories.

Claire Nightingale: Okay, well, I’m sorry to hear that, obviously, but I think there are a few points [01:40:10] that I would make in response. I mean, I think that throughout dentistry, throughout the history of dentistry, [01:40:15] men have been treated badly as associates in circumstances. I have been treated [01:40:20] badly as an associate. You know, bad behaviour is rife, [01:40:25] if you like, throughout the profession and always has been in certain circumstances. [01:40:30]

Payman Langroudi: Overwhelmingly female if.

Claire Nightingale: You count.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone.

Claire Nightingale: Right. It is. And well, I think the other two things I’d say [01:40:35] is that if we go back, you know, DC are now paid considerably [01:40:40] more than they were paid 30 years ago. You know, before regulation, before, [01:40:45] you know, dentists, dental nurses had to be regulated, you know, and registered. I [01:40:50] mean, registrants, of course, is what I’m trying to say. You know, like, you know, 40 years ago, [01:40:55] it was very common that a woman would start working in dental practice, having had her kids, [01:41:00] you know, and it was an easy way to get back into work. And they were unbelievably valuable contributor [01:41:05] to the workforce. I mean, the days where a woman could come back, learn how to mix some [01:41:10] cement and hold an aspirator and cover reception and take a telephone message as well, meant [01:41:15] that the workforce was phenomenally versatile. And I miss those days, to be frank. [01:41:20] You know, the registration has really limited flexibility within the workforce, [01:41:25] but they also used to get paid a pittance, you know, and there were no pensions, you [01:41:30] know, so clearly there have been some massively important changes. But we now know that dental nurses [01:41:35] are extremely valuable, you know, and can command really quite a high hourly rate. [01:41:40] And if you look how much an orthodontic therapist is paid. So I don’t I don’t agree that [01:41:45] women are being underpaid in dentistry. And I would also [01:41:50] say that there is and I see this in the various WhatsApp groups that I belong to, that there is a tendency [01:41:55] for those who feel most hard done by to be the ones that are speaking out. You know, nobody, [01:42:00] you know, rare. Well, I mean, those who are in a good place don’t tend to shout about [01:42:05] it. True. And might be boasting if they are, you know. So so I think we just have to keep [01:42:10] take a, you know, look at it with a sense of perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part. [01:42:15] Yeah. We like to talk about errors.

Claire Nightingale: Clinical errors. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So that we can learn from each [01:42:20] other’s clinical errors comes to mind.

Claire Nightingale: Well, the worst [01:42:25] thing I have done as an orthodontist is failed to. Okay. [01:42:30] So an impacted canine. Okay. And in a In a young person, [01:42:35] young man who was crowding crowded. He had a two for contact. [01:42:40] So in one quadrant, upper left quadrant he had a two and an upper lateral was and an [01:42:45] upper first premolar were in contact. And he had a difficult canine and he was crowded [01:42:50] everywhere else. So the treatment plan was take out three premolars in and [01:42:55] align the impacted tooth, but leave the premolar in situ [01:43:00] until I was confident that the canine was shifting. Okay, so you’d think that was all totally sensible. [01:43:05] Anyway, so I made I observed how his treatment was progressing by how quickly [01:43:10] the gold chain was lengthening. I was counting the links of gold chain as they came out from the mucosa. [01:43:15] I hope I took a check X-ray, but I can’t be 100% [01:43:20] certain from memory that I did. Anyway, I got to the point where I was confident to prescribe the [01:43:25] loss of the first premolar. So off he went and had the tooth extracted. And [01:43:30] then we discovered a few months down the line that the canine was enclosed. And [01:43:35] so why was the change? Well, this is the retrospect, you know, with [01:43:40] hindsight. So I went back and looked at the radiographs. And what I saw was that when the surgeon [01:43:45] had done the exposure, she hadn’t pulled the gold chain out under tension. [01:43:50] And what what had happened was that the gold chain was actually coiled up underneath the flap, and I [01:43:55] was just pulling out the gold chain, and I wasn’t putting any tension on the tooth at all. And that [01:44:00] was a bad, a bad, bad call on my behalf, you know, because, um, [01:44:05] he ended up with an implant, you know, so that’s how that one played out.

Payman Langroudi: We’re [01:44:10] lucky to be small. The most difficult sort of patient parent nightmare. There [01:44:15] must have been.

Claire Nightingale: One of those. Yeah. Okay, so I think the best thing I can do is share a few stories. [01:44:20] Okay. So, uh, recently I had a child [01:44:25] who was who had come in from to have Invisalign fitted. So child at boarding [01:44:30] school. Very difficult, you know, to find the time in the diary to come. Came in to have her Invisalign [01:44:35] fitted. And when we opened the box, the Invisalign had been manufactured to completely the wrong scan. [01:44:40] It wasn’t her. It wasn’t her aligners. Right? So we said, oh, look, really terribly sorry. [01:44:45] You know, manufacturing issue. Clearly not your aligners. You know, mum’s put out. I [01:44:50] said, look, if you like, I can quickly put fixed braces on. No, that wasn’t the plan. We weren’t like, okay, terribly [01:44:55] sorry. You know, sent off a fresh, raised it as an error with Invisalign, set them to [01:45:00] come back for a second time. They come back second time. Guess what? We open the box. Same bloody thing. Same thing. [01:45:05]

Payman Langroudi: How often does that happen?

Claire Nightingale: Never. Oh, well. One. Only one. Only, you know and you know. [01:45:10] And so of course, what you know. And I was absolutely mortified, you know, what can you say? A complete [01:45:15] mess up in every regard on their, you know, on Aline’s behalf, on our [01:45:20] behalf.

Payman Langroudi: It falls on you, doesn’t it? Well, you know.

Claire Nightingale: You know, so what happens? You know, you get a delivery [01:45:25] and the staff tick, you know, so and so’s aligners have arrived, but nobody opens the box [01:45:30] to check that the aligners matched the scan. Because you know what? It never happens. It’s a never event. [01:45:35] Apart from it did happen. Okay, it happened twice to this to [01:45:40] to a boarding school family. And I just looked at the mum and I said, look, I don’t know [01:45:45] what to say. I am so sorry. You know, this shouldn’t have happened. [01:45:50] I should take taken personal responsibility myself to check the aligners, you know. [01:45:55] So how did I manage it? You know, you fess up, you know, my, you know, our [01:46:00] error. You know how. I’m very sorry. You know, let me reduce your [01:46:05] fee, you know, not 10% off the overall cost of treatment as a gesture of apology. [01:46:10] How are we going to make sure it’s better next time? Well, I will take personal responsibility to [01:46:15] check that when that lab work comes back, it’s the appropriate one for your daughter. Okay, so what happens [01:46:20] next? She recommends us to her whole family, you know, so.

Payman Langroudi: The way wrong, [01:46:25] then did it. I mean, I’m talking about something that something that went wrong. Well, I.

Claire Nightingale: Mean, all I’m saying is I’m talking about how do you manage adverse situations, [01:46:30] and it has nothing.

Payman Langroudi: To do with your relationship with the patient was excellent there. It [01:46:35] wasn’t.

Claire Nightingale: On the second time they came and they said.

Payman Langroudi: Well, maybe, maybe if that person said, no, [01:46:40] I don’t want to go ahead and left, that would be a good story.

Claire Nightingale: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Claire Nightingale: All right. Okay. [01:46:45] So I’ll tell you another story. So this one will float your boat. Uh, so I [01:46:50] had a kid who was a transfer case from America, and they [01:46:55] had a palatal expander. Right. And I said, oh, well, you know, it looks like it’s done [01:47:00] the job. I mean, I’ll show you another story. Well, anyway, it looks like it’s done the job, so I’ll [01:47:05] tell you what. Why don’t I take it off for you and you can be really comfortable, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So [01:47:10] kid does that. Now, the slight twist to this story is my own daughter was on work experience [01:47:15] at the time, and she was sitting on the reception desk with my receptionist, and all I could hear [01:47:20] was gales of laughter coming from reception. Right. All seemed all very [01:47:25] everything at that moment in time was very jolly and happy. Anyway, I put some band removing pliers [01:47:30] onto this TPA, not realising that unlike in the UK, everything [01:47:35] is soldered, you see. So you know, you pop off one side, it remains intact, you pop off the other, [01:47:40] out it comes. On this occasion, the orthodontist had used palatal sheaths and [01:47:45] the the expander was inserted into a sheath. So when I took off the band, it wasn’t attached [01:47:50] to the expander and the patient promptly swallowed it. Oh, yeah. So there [01:47:55] I am, sort of thinking, oh, God, you know, let’s hope it’s I mean, it wouldn’t be inhaled, but how [01:48:00] do how am I going to tell the mum that her child has just swallowed half of his orthodontic appliance? [01:48:05] I’m sort of like in the meantime, hearing my daughter regaling the practice [01:48:10] manager with this completely inappropriate stories about toilet malfunction on a coach [01:48:15] in New York on her scout trip.

Claire Nightingale: And I’m thinking, I need some help here. Please stop all this hilarity. [01:48:20] Anyway, so of course, I have to say to the to the mum, look, you know, I think I’ve just dropped half [01:48:25] of the appliance down your child’s throat and I’m now going to have to write a referral letter to [01:48:30] A&E at Chelsea and Westminster, and you’re going to have to go off and be x rayed. You know, so off they [01:48:35] go. Um, yes. And I phoned them up the following day to find out how it had went. And mum says, [01:48:40] oh, it was quite funny actually. And I thought phew, I’ve turned this one around. [01:48:45] And what she was referring to was that her humour at seeing her child’s orthodontic appliance in her child’s [01:48:50] stomach on the x ray. Wow. So, you know, so you know, they didn’t I mean, [01:48:55] they’ve been lost to follow up. So they haven’t come back. But you know, is that the kind of, you know, is that a disaster? [01:49:00] It you know, it’s it’s one.

Payman Langroudi: You’re still looking.

Claire Nightingale: For, right? Payman. Let [01:49:05] me think of another one.

Payman Langroudi: That’s just, you know, I dropped something. I, you know, there’s plenty of those [01:49:10] I’m talking about where the confidence of the patient or the or the parent. And the reason why I’m asking is [01:49:15] because there’s a parent patient, you know, that that sort of triangle situation. There [01:49:20] must have been a worse situation than those two.

Claire Nightingale: Well, I’ll just keep talking and then I’ll share. I’ll [01:49:25] share. Let me tell you the other things. So, um. Okay, another, uh, [01:49:30] I mean, you know, I had, um, another difficult moment, [01:49:35] a young man who had been in braces for a long time and, um, uh, [01:49:40] decided not to complete his treatment. I took him out of my orthodontic therapist, was actually de-bonding [01:49:45] him again. We had a young work experience student watching in the surgery. Anyway, I get [01:49:50] the call to go in because this young man had dislocated his mandible while she was [01:49:55] taking off his brace. Now, I’ve never had I’ve never seen a dislocated mandible. Right. So [01:50:00] I walk into this room, and the patient himself had actually apparently had a history of [01:50:05] dislocating his mandible. So I wasn’t particularly alarmed because this had happened before, and, [01:50:10] um, but couldn’t talk to me. I didn’t know, you know, you can’t talk, you know? [01:50:15] So I’ve got this orthodontic therapist in a bit of a flap. I’ve got a young work experience [01:50:20] student, a dog and a man and a patient whose mouth is propped open. And [01:50:25] and it was probably a Friday. You know, it was probably a Friday afternoon. And it’s my peak [01:50:30] time.

Payman Langroudi: Did you have a go at repositioning? Well, I.

Claire Nightingale: Went and phoned a friend. Right. So fortunately my [01:50:35] surgeon picked up the phone and I was like, what do I do? And he said, right, [01:50:40] what you do, you know, put your thumbs on the external oblique ridge, get the patient to cough. And when he coughs, you [01:50:45] push down and back. Okay. So I go back do that. Coughs down and back. And there [01:50:50] was this gratifying pop and the condyles re-seated in the appropriate place and the pay [01:50:55] and we all high fived. You know, this is great, you know. Anyway, a week later, this young man came back [01:51:00] a complete wreck and clearly hadn’t slept because I said, right, we won’t take off your [01:51:05] top brace. You know you’ll do that next week. Came back, was in great distress, [01:51:10] clearly hadn’t slept and had developed extreme pain. Oh, I tell you before he’d left, what [01:51:15] I’d said was I’ll just put on a little bit of bit of power chain. You’ve got like a millimetre of space. So I’ll [01:51:20] just close down this little bit of space. Come back next week, we’ll take your top brace off. Anyway. Came back, wouldn’t let me touch [01:51:25] him. Um, the relationship had completely flipped. Um, and [01:51:30] he left. And then a few weeks later, I got the solicitor’s letter. [01:51:35] Right. This is a meaty story for your pain. This is what you want to hear, isn’t it? Right. Okay. Right. [01:51:40] So I got this solicitor’s letter saying that I had caused this man acute [01:51:45] pain, and he was now taking legal action, so I kind of was slightly puzzled. [01:51:50] Um, and, um, anyway, and this, this went on [01:51:55] for years, actually, you know, because it all goes quiet and I was and I didn’t actually know [01:52:00] what I was potentially being sued for, you see.

Claire Nightingale: And after three [01:52:05] years, I get the letter from my solicitor saying that they had been unable [01:52:10] to find any clinical expert witness to support their case. [01:52:15] So would I be inclined to give them another six months to go hunting? So naturally, [01:52:20] because apparently that’s what you can do. You know, you’ve got three years to bring a case, and then you can ask for an extension [01:52:25] of six months if the person you’re suing, if the person you’re suing is an agreement. So [01:52:30] like, well, that was the quickest decision I’ve ever made, I can tell you. Let me really think [01:52:35] about that one. Long and hard. No, but this was the only point [01:52:40] that I was told what I was actually being sued for. And amazingly, I was being sued [01:52:45] for the careless application of power chain. Okay, now this absolutely [01:52:50] made me laugh out loud for the simple reason that I did my whole thesis on the application of power [01:52:55] chain and the forced decay of power chain. So I replied to my solicitor. I said, oh, [01:53:00] interesting that I’m being sued on the application of power chain, because can I refer you to the five [01:53:05] publications I have on the four stroke of power chain? You know, do you think [01:53:10] it was malicious intent? No. I mean, there were deeper things going on with that [01:53:15] case, which I won’t go into. So it wasn’t malicious. It was, you know, it was just [01:53:20] one of those.

Payman Langroudi: And what can we learn from.

Claire Nightingale: Patient [01:53:25] selection. I’ll use an analogy which, um, [01:53:30] so my my oldest son, his first love when [01:53:35] he was 17, and his, his and the girlfriend’s mother never [01:53:40] allowed her daughter to be unchaperoned. Right. And never wanted my son to [01:53:45] be there in their house with her, without the mom being around anyway. My son was naughty. They were naughty. They. [01:53:50] They hung out together one morning and stupidly posted a photograph [01:53:55] on social media. And there was some phenomenon called maintaining your streaks. Do you know what that means? I don’t [01:54:00] know, I think it was about posting every.

Payman Langroudi: Day or every day having to. Yeah.

Claire Nightingale: Yeah, yeah. So? So [01:54:05] the girl was found out because her mum looked at her phone and found the photo and, you know, [01:54:10] and all hell kicked off and and I was walking to school with my youngest [01:54:15] son, who at the time must have been about ten years old, and I was sharing [01:54:20] this story with him, you know, and my message was really about respect. You know, I wanted my young [01:54:25] son to recognise that people have you have to respect people’s rules and, [01:54:30] you know, and you pay respect to people and observe their requests. So I said to [01:54:35] Harvey, so what do you think the learning outcome of this story is, Harvey? Meaning [01:54:40] I’ll respect the rules, ma’am. And he said, don’t date a girl with a psycho mom.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:54:45] true.

Claire Nightingale: So we come back to case selection by [01:54:50] that analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about comedy.

Claire Nightingale: Yes. Okay. So this kind of [01:54:55] moves on to the next stage. Looking ahead, you know, what am I doing? So, you [01:55:00] know, I’m three years into my earnout. So I’ve got two years before I am freed of obligation. That [01:55:05] doesn’t mean I’m going to stop working, of course, but I would like to do less clinical work, So I [01:55:10] got to the start of this academic term, September time. And I thought, well, what am I going to do? [01:55:15] So I did two courses. So the first I did a course, the Bond Solon course in expert witness [01:55:20] work so I can start to build a Dental legal career. And the second was stand up comedy. [01:55:25] And did that come from where did it come from? Well, I am someone that’s always enjoyed performance. [01:55:30] You know, I’ve always it’s been difficult in the sense that I’ve worked [01:55:35] so hard professionally that I haven’t committed to any form of amateur operatics or anything like [01:55:40] that for decades. But when I was at university, I was very involved with the Gilbert and Sullivan Society, [01:55:45] and I used to play in various swing bands, that sort of thing. And I went to a stand [01:55:50] up gig at the Museum of Comedy, and I happened to notice a sign on the wall that said Comedy [01:55:55] Course This Way, and I clocked it for future use. And and in [01:56:00] the summer I signed up to do the course. So it was so much fun. So between September and [01:56:05] November, I did a ten week course three hours a night on a Monday at the Museum of Comedy, [01:56:10] run by a stand up comic called Logan Murray.

Claire Nightingale: And there were about 15 of us that started on the course, [01:56:15] 12 completed. And the first five weeks we just did improvisation games, [01:56:20] which was great fun. So I would be asked, I’d be given a microphone [01:56:25] and told to stand up in front of the group and discuss whether doors or windows were better, you know? [01:56:30] And the obvious answer is, well, it depends whether you’re a cat or a burglar, you know? So we larked about [01:56:35] for five weeks, and then we started doing five minute sets. And [01:56:40] I decided I would just try a different set every week and see where the laughs landed. [01:56:45] And after about three weeks, we were told we had our homework was to go and start gigging. Wow. [01:56:50] So there’s a pub up in Highgate called The Boogaloo. So a number of us started [01:56:55] a few sets up there of a Thursday night. So again, you know, the laugh was [01:57:00] so and in order to do a set at this particular venue requires you to [01:57:05] you to bring a paying guest. Right. So you can’t stand up and perform if you don’t have a [01:57:10] guest in the audience. So bless him. My oldest son agreed. My husband was [01:57:15] busy, so my oldest son agreed to come along. But so funnily did Nicola and Barry. [01:57:20] So there’s another twist in the tale of my practice that my. At my first ever stand up gig, [01:57:25] there was Barry supporting me in the audience, and he did laugh and say, Clare, please remember [01:57:30] that the sale agreement only required me to come once anyway. So [01:57:35] yes, so I did like.

Payman Langroudi: Is it very scary?

Claire Nightingale: Um, well, I suppose because I am clearly a bit [01:57:40] of a show off, and I am so used to lecturing and [01:57:45] performing that it was an extension of that. Anyway, you know, and my comedy [01:57:50] is talking about my life. I’m just looking at the humour in my life [01:57:55] and exaggerating it. You know, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not Invisalign humour like.

Claire Nightingale: Invisalign, [01:58:00] Invisalign humour, what would be? So tell me a knock knock joke about a clear aligner. Yeah, [01:58:05] no, I have a anyway, so. And of course, when you start off doing something for the first time, you [01:58:10] start to understand the ropes. So just to enlighten you, enlighten. Um, [01:58:15] the industry standard is five minutes. So when you’re starting out in comedy, you do a five minute [01:58:20] set and no more, you know, and that’s really difficult to time it because [01:58:25] when you’re listening, five minutes is an eternity. But when you’re performing, five minutes goes by in a flash. [01:58:30] So I now have and so I mean, so I did my first [01:58:35] comedy set, um, at the Boogaloo. And then a week later I went back and did [01:58:40] a second set. And what was interesting for me is that the audience demographic was totally [01:58:45] different between the first two occasions. So the first occasion it was me, my comedy [01:58:50] group, who were, you know, largely late 40s 50s, um, [01:58:55] and the second week it was all young people in their 20s. And of course, my life experience, [01:59:00] I’m talking from being a being a middle class, middle aged white woman about my life experiences. So [01:59:05] my sets are about childbirth, they’re about dentistry. They’re about going on Mark Warner [01:59:10] Holidays and I opened the set saying, well, not opened it. But at one point [01:59:15] I said, I’ve just come back from a mark Warner holiday. And everybody looked totally blank. I didn’t know what it was. And I [01:59:20] and I sort of managed to sort of carry it through. But I realised that if you if you’re [01:59:25] wanting to be successful in comedy, you’ve got to be really fleet of foot. And you look at your audience and you think, well, [01:59:30] if I’ve got a choice of six sets to pull out of the bag, which one is going to suit [01:59:35] this 20 year old demographic and which is going to suit this 70 year old demographic, depending [01:59:40] on where you’re at?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you say it’s similar to lecturing, but, you know, you don’t bomb [01:59:45] in the same way when you’re lecturing, even if people don’t like your lecture.

Claire Nightingale: Well, [01:59:50] I mean, you know.

Payman Langroudi: People sort of sort of sit on their hands, but if people aren’t laughing. Yeah. [01:59:55] I mean, how does that feel when you tell a joke and people don’t laugh?

Claire Nightingale: I’m yet to bomb. But, you know, [02:00:00] I’m sounding like I’m an expert. Can I just put it into the context? I’ve done three gigs, you [02:00:05] know, I’ve done two at the Boogaloo and the end of term. End, of course show. [02:00:10] Now, fortunately, in the in the boogaloo, everybody, the. [02:00:15]

Payman Langroudi: Friendly audience, it’s.

Claire Nightingale: A friendly audience. You know, everybody was either a gigging themselves or they were [02:00:20] a bring e there to support. So it was two friendly audiences at the the end of [02:00:25] course show, we performed on the stage at the Museum of Comedy, which is a crypt in a church [02:00:30] off the Tottenham Court Road. And of course, the whole audience were family and friends. So [02:00:35] I’ve yet to have that utterly humiliating.

Payman Langroudi: In an audience where the guy was bombing. [02:00:40] Yeah, it was awful just being in the audience, let alone being on stage [02:00:45] being bombed.

Claire Nightingale: I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Who’s your favourite comedian, by the way?

Claire Nightingale: Oh, well, it has to be Michael McIntyre, doesn’t it? [02:00:50] You know. Well, I mean, you know, I don’t watch a huge amount of comedy in truth, because I’m just very busy in the way I don’t [02:00:55] really read social media posts either. I’m just busy doing my own thing. But I love the Michael [02:01:00] McIntyre sketch about having his failed extraction on the Finchley Road. He must be [02:01:05] familiar with that one. It’s it’s a joy. Um, so, you know, so the question is, [02:01:10] you know, is the you know, I’ve done this to enhance my life when I have more time. And [02:01:15] the thing that’s holding me back at the moment is I have no time. You know, I’m still running at top pace [02:01:20] professionally. Um, but today, in fact, just before I came here, I have booked the [02:01:25] Fiddler’s Elbow for the 9th of March. Uh, no. 12th of March for us to redo [02:01:30] our end of term end of course gig, because we forgot to get it professionally. Professionally [02:01:35] videoed. You know, there we were. We were all doing the culmination of a ten week course, and we forgot [02:01:40] to capture our finest moment. So tell us a joke. I can’t tell you a joke for the simple reason. [02:01:45] If I start doing comedy, you’ve got to warm up. You’ve got to be the compere. You’ve got to warm [02:01:50] up the listeners. And then I’ll tell you my the best ever joke. But it is very dark [02:01:55] and not appropriate for a Dental Leaders podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely this podcast does get dark. [02:02:00]

Claire Nightingale: Yeah, yeah, you probably don’t want to hear about paedophile English tutors. Okay, [02:02:05] but there is comedy even there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s been a massive, massive pleasure talking [02:02:10] to you. Let’s get to the final question. Fantasy dinner party.

Claire Nightingale: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Fantasy [02:02:15] dinner party.

Claire Nightingale: Now, interestingly, I was discussing this with my daughter on Saturday as I was driving a [02:02:20] picking up from university, and we both chose the same first guest, Ella Fitzgerald. Oh, [02:02:25] lovely. Yeah. And not only would I eat with her, but I’d ask if I could sing with [02:02:30] her too.

Payman Langroudi: Are you a singer?

Claire Nightingale: That’s something I’m bad at. Yeah, [02:02:35] I’d like to be. Yeah. Okay, so, Ella Fitzgerald, inevitably, I have to go for Mrs. Pankhurst. [02:02:40] Oh, lovely. And then the third interesting story. Somebody [02:02:45] called James Miranda. Barry. Yeah. Now, James. Miranda. Barry. I [02:02:50] discovered this person when I was looking at. I was in the old operating theatre, which is near Guy’s Hospital. [02:02:55] Really interesting place to visit. And I just stumbled across a photograph on a wall and then read about [02:03:00] this person. So James Miranda Barry was a military surgeon, so born [02:03:05] in 1795, died in 1865. And she he [02:03:10] performed the first recorded caesarean section in which both the mother and the child survived. [02:03:15] Okay. It went off to medical school at 14 up in Edinburgh, learnt [02:03:20] in Latin, had a stand up row with Florence Nightingale during the Crimean War. [02:03:25] Very very interesting person. Lived a very interesting life. But when the body was laid [02:03:30] out for burial turned out to be a woman.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa!

Claire Nightingale: Yeah. Lived a life as a man to [02:03:35] fulfil professional objectives. Wow. Yeah. So [02:03:40] fascinating. Fascinating story. That one. Next question.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good choices. Good [02:03:45] choices. Our final question. It’s a deathbed. Yes. We’ve kind [02:03:50] of alluded to some of them, but let’s see what you got. Deathbed. Deathbed. Pieces of advice [02:03:55] for your friends and family? Loved ones. Right? For the world.

Claire Nightingale: Okay, so I’m not obviously [02:04:00] waiting till my deathbed to give the advice, right? So, um, you know, based [02:04:05] on. So based on my personal experience. So stress is pathological. [02:04:10] So get out of stressful situations early. So one thing I’ve been bad [02:04:15] at is not cutting loose. You know, just recognising [02:04:20] that I was going down a dead.

Payman Langroudi: End with your other thing about resilience, though, you know, it’s problematic because, [02:04:25] you know, on one side, you want to be resilient. Yeah. So that takes a little bit of stress.

Claire Nightingale: So [02:04:30] resilience led me to grave’s disease. What a fabulous reward. Yeah. So cut your losses [02:04:35] early. You know, if it’s quite obviously things are not going to work out. Just get out of the situation [02:04:40] and respect your health. You know, respect that your mental wellbeing, your physical wellbeing [02:04:45] trumps everything else. You know, get out of it. There’s always going to be another alternative. But I mean another [02:04:50] opportunity. But you can’t often see the wood for the trees, can you? So that would be one thing. Um, [02:04:55] I have talked about, um, planning your family around [02:05:00] the age you want to be when you have your last child? Yeah. Hugely important, actually. And the other [02:05:05] one, I would say speak up. Speak up. You know, I have spent my life speaking up. [02:05:10] Um, and I would like to tell you a story, and it comes. So, I [02:05:15] mean, when I was at orthodontic, um, on my orthodontic course, Jonathan Sandy, who was our course [02:05:20] leader, dubbed me the Jemmy Knapp of the orthodontic course because Jemmy Knapp at the time [02:05:25] was quite an aggressive trade union leader, you know, in the 1990s. So that’s what he called [02:05:30] me. Um, but recently I spoke up at [02:05:35] the Invisalign Summit in 2023. And the reason why there [02:05:40] were two, there was the reason why I was a bit, um, enraged was because about two weeks [02:05:45] before Invisalign had invited me to a women’s and dentist networking [02:05:50] event where we’re all women around the table, and they were talking.

Claire Nightingale: It was led by a woman, and the idea was, how can [02:05:55] they support and nurture and mentor women, blah, blah, blah. And we all had this lovely touchy feely evening. [02:06:00] And then two weeks later, I went to the Invisalign summit [02:06:05] to discover that of 12 speakers, ten of them were men. And the two women that were [02:06:10] speaking were dental nurses talking about being treatment coordinators. Right. So, [02:06:15] you know, I thought, how does this marry up? You’ve just hosted this occasion of 15 [02:06:20] female dentists and not a single. Anyway, so I thought, right. And [02:06:25] the laugh was, is that at this meeting we’d been talking about how do we get more women speaking at [02:06:30] events? And I said, well, we have to call it out. You know, whenever there is an event where [02:06:35] less than a third of the speakers are women, we have to call it out little, [02:06:40] knowing that the first event I was going to call it out at was their own. Right. So [02:06:45] you called it out?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Claire Nightingale: So what happened? Yeah, I did. So I was in a room. Let’s [02:06:50] say there were 400 people there, and I thought, okay, so I’ve said, I’m going to call it out. I’ve told them that [02:06:55] I’m going to do it, but when am I going to do it? Because I thought, I don’t want to do it at the beginning of the day, because I [02:07:00] don’t want to take the dampen the mood of the day. But if I leave it too late, everybody [02:07:05] was going out to get their hair done for the party, you see. So anyway, I was gifted this wonderful [02:07:10] moment where they were wrapping up with a panel discussion. So picture ten [02:07:15] men on stage and one man leading the discussion, and he turned [02:07:20] to the panel and said, where would you like a line technology to go in the next 12 months? So [02:07:25] I thought, this is the moment. So I leapt to my feet because I’m so short I [02:07:30] had to stand up and be visible. Pardon? I was a participant. You were a participant, a participant. [02:07:35] So I was their worst nightmare. So yeah, I leapt to my feet, sort of shouting David! David! [02:07:40] Because it was the wonderful David Rajkovic was the chair. Yeah, I know where I would [02:07:45] like a line technology to go in the next 12 months. So at that moment, a micra, a young woman came up to me and thrust [02:07:50] a microphone into my hand. So I said, right, I would like first of all, I would like you to reduce your packaging [02:07:55] because we can’t and also talk about recycling.

Claire Nightingale: I want you to become more environmentally sustainable [02:08:00] because we can’t talk about the best care of teenagers and at the same time simultaneously trash [02:08:05] their world. Right. So there’s a round of applause. Okay. And then I said, and then [02:08:10] secondly, you know, whilst I don’t want to discredit [02:08:15] the gentleman who’ve been speaking, many of whom have been speaking their second language, and it’s been hugely impressive. [02:08:20] Nevertheless, I sincerely hope that this is the last event, Invisalign summit [02:08:25] I ever come to, where there isn’t a single female orthodontist or a single female executive from a line. Technology [02:08:30] speaking. And at this point, the room erupted into cheers, you see. So there were whoops and cheers [02:08:35] and it had a big impact. Anyway, you know, after the adrenaline had settled, I was kind [02:08:40] of waiting for, you know, in a line to reach out to me. And nothing happened for six months. [02:08:45] And then I bumped into Evren Köksal at the Portman Dentex conference last December, [02:08:50] and he came up to me and said, oh, thank you very much for that feedback. You’ll be really delighted, because this [02:08:55] year I’ve made sure that we have 50 over 50 male and female speakers. [02:09:00] I said, that’s brilliant, Evren, because I was really worried, of course, that you would feel [02:09:05] negatively about me. No, no, no, we’re really welcomed. It really glad you spoke up. Next [02:09:10] thing that happens in the in February this year, I get an invitation from Align Technology [02:09:15] to become their UK specialist on their Emir advisory panel.

Claire Nightingale: So I’ve now been to [02:09:20] two meetings with them, one in Poland and one in Madrid. And at the Madrid meeting [02:09:25] they had all of the senior executive team there, so they had Joe Hagan, Simon [02:09:30] Beard, they had their chief financial person and we had been primed. So I’m now part [02:09:35] of this committee of international orthodontists that meet twice a twice a year, [02:09:40] and they run ideas past us and get feedback. And we’d all been [02:09:45] asked to bring a question, you know, what would we like to ask executive team? And I was told afterwards that the one question [02:09:50] they were certain would come up was sustainability. That was the one they had prepared for. But [02:09:55] actually since then they have reduced their packaging. So I can’t tell you that it’s [02:10:00] cause and effect. But I but I’m delighted, of course, that they’ve now got more discreet [02:10:05] packaging. It’s smaller in volume. It’s made out of recyclable materials. Um, but they’ve [02:10:10] asked me to do something for them, and I didn’t like aspects of the contract, so I flagged [02:10:15] it up to Joe Hagan and said, um, you know, I’m not a lawyer, [02:10:20] but these clauses don’t look very favourable to me. And they’ve sent [02:10:25] me a rewrite of the contract. And I think that all of that is incredible [02:10:30] that I, as a single voice, was [02:10:35] willing to stand up and speak out. And they, a big American [02:10:40] corporate, have been big enough to welcome the feedback, to make some changes and [02:10:45] and welcome me in.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think women don’t speak up? Do you think [02:10:50] it’s a woman thing?

Claire Nightingale: I think it’s a I do think it’s a woman thing, [02:10:55] and I think it’s a shy man thing as well. But people should speak up because [02:11:00] you need to be heard, and you can do so in a way that is positive. You [02:11:05] know, I speak up a lot, but, you know, but when I do, it comes from a place [02:11:10] of wanting to make things better. I’m not trying to be complaining or critical or aggressive. [02:11:15] My stance is, can we do this differently? Can we [02:11:20] make it better? And you know, in my own professional life, negative feedback is [02:11:25] painful, but actually it’s more beneficial if you want to move forwards and make [02:11:30] things better than being told you’re doing great, you know? But of course, um, a [02:11:35] negative feedback delivered in an aggressive way is just a terrible experience. [02:11:40]

Payman Langroudi: Claire Nightingale. It’s been a massive, massive pleasure. Thank you so [02:11:45] much for coming all the way here.

Claire Nightingale: It’s been my pleasure to Payman. Thank you for inviting [02:11:50] me.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [02:11:55] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [02:12:00] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [02:12:05] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [02:12:10] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [02:12:15] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests has had to say, because [02:12:20] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [02:12:25] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [02:12:30] of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

In this engaging episode, longtime dental industry professional Joe Lovett shares his journey from his early days at FMC Publications to founding his own consulting business, Catalyst. 

He discusses the evolution of dental media, the importance of maintaining authentic relationships in business, and his passion for helping young dentists advance their careers. 

Through candid stories and reflections, Joe offers insights into corporate culture, ethical business practices, and the changing landscape of dental industry networking. 

In This Episode

00:03:05 – Fitness and mental health
00:07:40 – Business, sales and ethics
00:10:50 – Early career
00:24:30 – Fast Tracking Your Future
00:33:50 – Dental and social media
00:46:45 – Corporate culture
00:56:50 – Consulting and relationship building
01:17:35 – Career challenges and lessons learned
01:24:10 – Looking ahead
01:27:25 – Closing questions

About Joe Lovett

Joe Lovett is a prominent dental industry consultant and founder of Catalyst, specialising in helping international dental companies enter the UK market and mentoring the next generation of dental professionals. 

With nearly two decades of experience in dental media and business development, beginning at FMC Publications in 2008, Joe has established himself as a trusted advisor and connector within the dental community.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Joe Lovett [00:00:50] onto the podcast. Joe is a long time friend of mine. I think I was thinking about it at least 15 [00:00:55] years. We’ve known each other, Joe. At least. Which year did you join FMC?

Joe Lovett: 2008. [00:01:00] So since that’s not right, how can that be right? Was [00:01:05] there a global financial.

Payman Langroudi: Crisis when you.

Joe Lovett: Joined? 2nd of January 2008.

Payman Langroudi: Was [00:01:10] Lehman Brothers going down when you joined?

Joe Lovett: Yeah, quite literally. I finished [00:01:15] university.

Payman Langroudi: Was it your first job out of uni?

Joe Lovett: No, no, no, I had another one where I was telesales [00:01:20] selling corporate expense management, which I don’t even know what that is. [00:01:25] I genuinely did it for a year and I didn’t even know what I was selling. And then just stumbled [00:01:30] across this cool little funky offices in Shenley, [00:01:35] FMC.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So you were you were you were a junior sales guy and then [00:01:40] you became a senior sales guy. Then you became head of sales. I remember at one point, um, [00:01:45] and then moved on after all of that. Sure. Um, where [00:01:50] you started catalyst and catalyst, kind of. It’s an enigma because [00:01:55] on one side of catalyst is sort of introducing products from overseas [00:02:00] to the UK market. And by the way, if there’s anyone who does that the [00:02:05] other way around, I definitely want to talk to you. If you’re if you’re the Joe Lovett of Saudi Arabia, Thailand [00:02:10] or the US, then contact Payman at enlightened. Com. But [00:02:15] introducing.

Joe Lovett: Products. I know the people. Yeah of course introducing.

Payman Langroudi: Products to the UK and [00:02:20] getting the product fast tracked in the UK. If that’s what you want to do you contact catalyst [00:02:25] and then on the other side of it and it’s kind of linked to it as well, is kind of this, this focus you’ve got [00:02:30] on young dentists, influencers, um, [00:02:35] getting propelling people’s careers. And I’m very interested in that too. I’m very, very interested when [00:02:40] you.

Joe Lovett: Do really well.

Payman Langroudi: When I see a spark in someone, someone who really is interested, I really want to manage [00:02:45] to put my turbocharger behind that spark. You know, I don’t know, it gives me pleasure.

Joe Lovett: I would [00:02:50] say you’re really good at identifying, you know, up and comers. You’re like the [00:02:55] Simon Cowell of whitening.

Payman Langroudi: Simon Cowell. It’s a massive [00:03:00] pleasure to have you, buddy. Thank you very.

Joe Lovett: Much for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this one for a while. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A fitness freak these days, I’ve [00:03:05] noticed. Well, so how long has that been going on?

Joe Lovett: Ah, you know, the thing is, [00:03:10] pay is I think I’m like 95% of people, whereby [00:03:15] our default position is to be lazy. Right. I [00:03:20] am inherently a slob, if I’m being honest. So in [00:03:25] order to avoid that, what I do is I put these [00:03:30] things in the diary, these challenges, whether it be marathon or high rocks [00:03:35] or something like that. And then I think, shit, I’m gonna have to do [00:03:40] that at some point.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t make a fool of myself.

Joe Lovett: I don’t want to embarrass myself. Yeah, or I don’t want to let my [00:03:45] team-mates down or whatever. So, yeah. And it’s the same. It’s it applies for [00:03:50] lots of facets of my life as well, with work, with speaking and things like that. So I always [00:03:55] like to like to have something in the diary which I’m cognisant of and I’m like, hey, that’s [00:04:00] coming up, that’s fast approaching. Best not embarrass myself here. So yeah, it’s [00:04:05] it’s really a bit of a failsafe.

Payman Langroudi: So Gary Vee talks about this. You know, he realised that accountability [00:04:10] to someone else is his biggest driver not to himself. [00:04:15] And I feel that personally. So what he did is he got himself a personal trainer [00:04:20] guy um to travel the world with him. And you know, because [00:04:25] he has to turn up at 9 a.m. for that personal trainer, he’s not going to miss that. But if if it [00:04:30] was for himself, he would miss it. And it’s that unlock for you. It seems to be like this calendar thing.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. [00:04:35] Well and similar and team-mates as well. So playing football as well. And, but then I [00:04:40] always do it with a partner. Yeah. Um, for those people I’m such a high rocks [00:04:45] board these days, I have to really pull myself back because people are my family for sure are just like, oh, [00:04:50] Jesus, he’s talking about it again. Um, it’s essentially eight kilometres, [00:04:55] broken down into single kilometres with an exercise in between. So it’s like intense over [00:05:00] an hour.

Payman Langroudi: You run an exercise. Run exercise.

Joe Lovett: Run exercise run exercise. So it’s like sled pull sled push [00:05:05] burpee broad jumps. It’s over an hour of hell and I always do it as a partner. [00:05:10] And I’m always, always super aware of they are training. [00:05:15] They are working hard. They want to do well. And the last thing I want to do is let people down in that respect as well. [00:05:20] So yeah. When did this.

Payman Langroudi: Fitness kick of yours kick in? I mean, was it you’ve always been [00:05:25] that guy and I didn’t know about it or is it recent?

Joe Lovett: I would say the like the last [00:05:30] five years.

Payman Langroudi: Five years.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. Where I’ve really, really kicked [00:05:35] on maybe, maybe in lockdown as well. And we just like nothing to do. Uh, [00:05:40] and I was really it really is an important part of my mental [00:05:45] health as well. So I’m useless at the beginning of the day. I’m not going to lie, until [00:05:50] I’ve done my workout, when I’ve done my done my workout, release those endorphins. Have my shower, [00:05:55] shave. I’m then good to go. I feel like a completely different person. I just feel a lot more [00:06:00] balanced, a lot more energetic. It’s such an important thing. I don’t think [00:06:05] enough people.

Payman Langroudi: Um, make that link between mental and physical health.

Joe Lovett: Massively, [00:06:10] massively. I mean, if you talk to, uh, Gin and Kirsch from small Dental Academy, they’re [00:06:15] exactly the same. They’re converts of that belief as well. I think it’s just [00:06:20] so important.

Payman Langroudi: Simon chard.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, massively. Massively, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But. So when you say mental [00:06:25] health, have you had mental health challenges or are you like on this optimisation.

Joe Lovett: Sort of have [00:06:30] I had mental health challenges.

Payman Langroudi: Wrong podcast.

Joe Lovett: Sorry [00:06:35] wrong.

Payman Langroudi: We do another one.

Joe Lovett: Yeah yeah yeah. Bring Rona. Um uh, [00:06:40] no I would say in the grand scheme of things, no, [00:06:45] but to the point.

Payman Langroudi: That we’ve all had mental health challenges, I guess.

Joe Lovett: Of course, you know, we [00:06:50] have good days, bad days. Bad things happen to us. That’s just life. [00:06:55] Um, I would say a couple of years ago, I was in [00:07:00] a I had, like, a annus horribilis where I made [00:07:05] some mistakes in my personal life, and, um, I didn’t like who I was [00:07:10] at that period of time. And there was a bit of self-loathing, and I was probably in a bit of a [00:07:15] black hole retrospectively. And, you know, at the time, you don’t necessarily realise [00:07:20] it, but retrospectively, you look back at that period and think, that was a bit of a dark period. Um, [00:07:25] but I think by and large, I’m so fortunate that I’m [00:07:30] surrounded by great people, positive people, um, [00:07:35] that it’s never been a long term reoccurring issue.

Payman Langroudi: If I had [00:07:40] to characterise my relationship with you, Joe, in the workspace anyway, I [00:07:45] mean, we’ve had some great times outside of work as well, but in the workspace you bring [00:07:50] a sort of a ethically based sort of paradigm into [00:07:55] selling and into work in general. I mean, there’s been several times where I’ve [00:08:00] tried to buy something off you and you’ve told me not to, and I [00:08:05] really respect that a lot because, you know, generally a salesman will just say sold. Think think about it [00:08:10] later. Yeah, yeah. And and at the same time, I guess maybe because of that attitude, [00:08:15] I remember the biggest sponsorship deal I ever did was with you. And back then [00:08:20] this was I remember it well because it was 2008, 2009, and £10,000 [00:08:25] was a lot of money. It’s still a lot of money. It’s still a lot of money today. But back then [00:08:30] to us, the company that we were and, you know, inflation and all that. £10,000 was a lot [00:08:35] of money. I took a massive risk sponsoring whatever the hell it was. World aesthetic, whatever it was.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, [00:08:40] I remember clearly. I remember who you were with and everything where we were saying.

Payman Langroudi: Can I get this [00:08:45] and can I get that? And and coming back to sand And with my head in my head down, I [00:08:50] spent double what you told me to spend and all of this, um, that ethically [00:08:55] based approach to things. We’ll get to how and why that ended up. Because I’d [00:09:00] like that for my children and stuff. But it must lead you to getting hurt if [00:09:05] someone else isn’t that way. Like, does that happen? Because let me give you an example. Like someone [00:09:10] like Sanj, you know Sanj really well. Yeah. Great guy. The best. He’s he’s one of the most ethical [00:09:15] people I know.

Joe Lovett: And a cool dude as well.

Payman Langroudi: Cool, dude. My best friend is [00:09:20] my is my business partner at enlighten. Pretty much runs the whole show. Um, [00:09:25] sanj. If someone lies to him, it’s a cardinal sin. I [00:09:30] mean, cardinal sin. Now, I don’t like people lying to me, but for [00:09:35] me, it’s not as big a sin as it is for him. Or if someone’s late. [00:09:40]

Joe Lovett: Oh, right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Like 20s late. It really [00:09:45] offends him. It properly offensive for me doesn’t really [00:09:50] bother me as much. So do you have that that, that sort of thing because you hold yourself up to [00:09:55] a high standard? Does that then disappoint you in others? Sometimes? Sure.

Joe Lovett: But, [00:10:00] you know, make no bones about it. I get it wrong some of the time as well. I [00:10:05] try to be hyper ethical all the time. Um, but, you know, I make mistakes like [00:10:10] any other person as well. Um, yeah. It does. I would say I’m [00:10:15] emotionally invested in what I do and the companies that I work with. I [00:10:20] think, um, when I first started catalyst, I’ve come from [00:10:25] a paid job at FMC, and it’s a bit like a [00:10:30] I’ve got a mortgage and bills to pay and expensive girlfriends at the time. [00:10:35] Um, I’ve got to pay these bills at the end of the month. So you’re a little bit [00:10:40] like, ah, I don’t know about this product or I’m not sure if I necessarily believe in this service or [00:10:45] So this person’s a bit.

Payman Langroudi: You took on things that you today necessarily wouldn’t.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, [00:10:50] exactly. So now, you know, seven years down the line, I can afford to [00:10:55] be a little bit more discerning. I can afford to be a little bit more ethical and go, you know what, I really like that. [00:11:00] I think that’s going to make a difference in practices. I think that is going to make a positive impact to the [00:11:05] Dental community. So I think, you know, it’s all very well [00:11:10] saying, being hyper ethical, but you have to be in a position in order to be able to do so. Mhm. [00:11:15]

Payman Langroudi: Who’s your go to. Like you see a new treatment. Who’s your go to dentist that you go to and say hey what do you think [00:11:20] of this. I’m sure there’s more than one right. Yeah multiple but but when I think of that for myself it’s [00:11:25] someone like Lewis McKenzie. If I wanted to think like get, get, get someone who I feel like [00:11:30] knows the whole the round dentistry in the round. Sure. I would call him bless his soul [00:11:35] and say, what do you think of my new sensitivity idea, for instance? Yeah.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. I mean, what [00:11:40] a great guy. Uh, no, it’s not as much as much as I love those guys. [00:11:45] If they want me, they tend to call me up for their five a side football team. My [00:11:50] go to guys are doctor Amit Patel up in up in Birmingham. Oh really? Yeah. Guy. [00:11:55] I, I’m so indebted to that guy. Um, personally [00:12:00] and professionally as well. He he has been worth his weight in gold for me and [00:12:05] my career and my personal life as well. And what I love so much about Amit is [00:12:10] his particular brutal brand of honesty. Yeah, he’ll go, [00:12:15] don’t bother with that. That’s a load of shit that’s never going to work. People are never going to buy it. [00:12:20] Right. But also is open to going well, you know, have you looked at it from this perspective [00:12:25] and stuff like that. So he’s not that dogmatic or obstinate whereby you [00:12:30] know, this is an opinion and just go, but, but you can have a real frank and honest discussion [00:12:35] with that guy and he will give you his brutal opinion, but but also be able to debate it as [00:12:40] well. So yeah, he’s been immeasurable to Reporter. Any partial success that I’ve had in this sector [00:12:45] for sure.

Payman Langroudi: So that would be your sort of primary data point?

Joe Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Then do you go to a few [00:12:50] young ones or whatever or.

Joe Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Owners. Practice owners.

Joe Lovett: And don’t forget, my partner [00:12:55] as well is a qualified dentist as well. Yeah, yeah. So, um, [00:13:00] it is quite funny. I’ll say. Hey, what do you think about this product? In fact, I got her [00:13:05] to try a new product on my dad, of all people, the other week. And just to give her feedback [00:13:10] on that. And she always says, you know, how much am I being paid for this? And like, we’ll go [00:13:15] to Wagamamas. We’ll sort it out. Yeah. So she’s she’s.

Payman Langroudi: Great. It’s a funny thing because, you know, I’m a dentist. [00:13:20] Um, and yet I need to call people, you know, because you don’t [00:13:25] know it all. Um, you want different people’s opinions, right? Market opinions as well. [00:13:30]

Joe Lovett: Yeah, absolutely. And and also, a lot of the time, you have the [00:13:35] right idea. I think you think you know it in your mind, but you need a sense checked and [00:13:40] to be able to consolidate it a it a little bit.

Payman Langroudi: I think also there’s like a, you know, you have to be an eternal optimist [00:13:45] to be you or me when when someone shows you something. I [00:13:50] walk around IDs sometimes. Yeah. There’s you’ve been there, right?

Joe Lovett: Yeah. For sure. I’m [00:13:55] looking forward to it again in March.

Payman Langroudi: Just 300 implant companies you’ve never heard of? Yeah. It’s wild. [00:14:00] Let’s imagine I was in the mindset of getting into implants, which I’m not at all yet. But if I was, [00:14:05] if I go and see some of these guys and I see this guy, he’s sort of the number two player [00:14:10] in Brazil. Yeah. And he’s got a good, interesting new idea. Or sometimes [00:14:15] I’m not looking for implants, sometimes looking for completely new treatments that [00:14:20] that aren’t around that people don’t know about. Sometimes you got to sort of just just listen to what the guy says and [00:14:25] people will pull out studies, you know, massive numbers of studies from so and so University, [00:14:30] um, you have to have an optimism that you [00:14:35] can make that work. Absolutely. But then you do need the realism of someone [00:14:40] asking difficult questions before you go and jump in deep and [00:14:45] commit to it. Of course, that’s that’s kind of what what it’s about, [00:14:50] right? Yeah.

Joe Lovett: I couldn’t agree more. I couldn’t agree more. Are you going to IDs?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, for sure, for [00:14:55] sure. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: Do you recommend it to young dentists? Would you recommend people 100%?

Payman Langroudi: 100%?

Joe Lovett: I, [00:15:00] I’m always recommending it to young dentists, even to just go in and out on the day. Yeah. I think [00:15:05] like the first time I went to my the size of it, I mean, people like spending millions of pounds [00:15:10] on their stands. It’s insane. And the parties are wild and everything like that. [00:15:15] Just the the sheer magnitude of it you can’t comprehend. I think they have something like 150,000 [00:15:20] dentists throughout the course of the week.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. It’s huge. Although, although [00:15:25] that said, I’m more now leaning towards the Dubai show. Okay. Because Dubai [00:15:30] as a town can handle a giant show. Yeah. And Cologne as a town cannot [00:15:35] handle a giant, even though it’s the show centre, one of the show centres of of Germany, right? [00:15:40] Um, you know, all the hotels are full. The the prices are ridiculous.

Joe Lovett: I paid €25 [00:15:45] for a pretzel and a Diet Coke. I nearly keeled over. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:15:50] no taxis, you know.

Joe Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Whereas Dubai just can handle it. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: You know, the weather’s [00:15:55] better as well.

Payman Langroudi: The weather’s better. And the Dubai show every year doubles in size like it’s now the biggest show [00:16:00] per year for sure. That happens every.

Joe Lovett: Year. And as well, I feel like you can make a deal at the Dubai show.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:16:05] I agree with you. It’s it’s more like that than ideas [00:16:10] because ideas, you’ve got these sort of global companies and they’re just that everyone’s sort of [00:16:15] is the cup final of like showing off almost.

Joe Lovett: It’s it’s more corporate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a corporate. [00:16:20] Um, that said, I’ve had many conversations in the Middle [00:16:25] East that have gone nowhere and meetings that people haven’t turned up to and more than [00:16:30] I did from, from, from contacts.

Joe Lovett: I’ve been welcome to my world that I [00:16:35] spent a lot of time in China. How’s that? And, uh, I think we went over there four [00:16:40] times with a view to, uh, doing a licensing agreement to do dentistry. China. That [00:16:45] was Ken Finlayson, who was the owner of FMC. That was always his, like, Mecca, [00:16:50] you know, like, let’s go there. Let’s do this. I spent some time there.

Payman Langroudi: Big thinker. Thinker. Ken. [00:16:55]

Joe Lovett: Oh, yeah. Massive, massive. Um, and I had signed contracts and things like [00:17:00] that and came back and celebrated it. I’m like, hey, guys, lift me on your shoulders and all [00:17:05] this type of stuff. And then, yeah, just came to nothing as well. So that was a steep learning curve.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:17:10] year was the last time you went to China? Oh, it’s a while ago.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, [00:17:15] I’d say like 20 1617 round.

Payman Langroudi: There because China’s a bit like Dubai [00:17:20] in that sense that it changes every year, like it continues to go forward. And they [00:17:25] they build that and all that.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. Oh my God. Every time I go back, it’s just like a [00:17:30] new building, you know, it’s like another shard, you know, just popped up in the space of six months. [00:17:35] Absolutely wild.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of a kid. Were you.

Joe Lovett: Kid? Yeah. [00:17:40] Um, so I was the oldest of five.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Your family is very interesting.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. [00:17:45] Like proper, like, sign on the dotted line. Full on Irish Catholic family. So, [00:17:50] like, my dad’s one of seven boys, and I’m one of five, four boys, one girl. [00:17:55] And there’s five of us. The oldest. I was the oldest. Yeah. So I [00:18:00] was like a little man at eight years old, because at that point [00:18:05] I had four younger siblings. I looked today, so I see my brother now, he’s [00:18:10] got two, and it’s just like you go around there. It’s a complete war zone, just with two. And it was [00:18:15] five of us under the age of eight. So I mean, Lord knows how [00:18:20] my mum did it. It was just must have been like a day to day. And we were all [00:18:25] so active as well, you know, like swimming lessons, football here or there, you know, like drama. [00:18:30] Uh, so yeah, your mum.

Payman Langroudi: I guess she was a full time mum, right?

Joe Lovett: Yeah. [00:18:35] She wasn’t working. Yeah. She was. Wasn’t working though. I mean, sorry, so wrong to say [00:18:40] she was working. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But not for pay.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. Not. Not for pay. Yeah. [00:18:45] Just. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And your dad, what did he do?

Joe Lovett: Does he do? My mum and dad [00:18:50] are very different characters. Yeah. My dad is the epitome [00:18:55] of old school, strong, silent type. Mhm. [00:19:00] Um, great to go to for business advice because he is just, like, unemotional, [00:19:05] very stoic. But he’s such a good man. [00:19:10] Right. So if you wanted a snapshot into my parents, [00:19:15] they do. They do a lot for for charity. My mum is like really well known in [00:19:20] the community for charity, but each year they do a quiz night. [00:19:25] It was quite fun last time. Um, I had a Dental table. So [00:19:30] I believe you had your wand doctor wand on there. She came up and yeah, everybody [00:19:35] was drunk. Arm wrestling and everything on the table. I’m like, guys, there’s a quiz going on. Please, can I get some help? [00:19:40] But if you wanted a snapshot. So my mom is front and centre with [00:19:45] the microphone. Drinking wine, singing, shouting [00:19:50] at people. Just very much like the life and soul. The energy [00:19:55] in the room. But my dad, he’s in the background. He’s doing the marking. He’s [00:20:00] doing the scores. So it’s like one can’t exist without the other. But they really dovetail [00:20:05] really nicely. Yeah. So yeah. Good people. Good people.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:20:10] your sister is the youngest?

Joe Lovett: No, my sister is fourth [00:20:15] out of the five. Four out of five. Yeah. And it’s interesting now because you’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Involved them in the company. [00:20:20]

Joe Lovett: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How many of them now?

Joe Lovett: So Jack and Sophie are [00:20:25] working at full time at Pearl, which is one of the companies that I consult for. [00:20:30] And then Ty’s ties. My partner is obviously a dentist, and she does a little [00:20:35] bit of clinical training for another company that I work with. And then when I do [00:20:40] my event, my mum’s insistent on coming down and being involved and and [00:20:45] welcoming people. It was quite funny. So my, my, my last event, um, [00:20:50] it was the first live one that we did. I was very naturally [00:20:55] like apprehensive. And, you know, there’s no money there, right? So I’m roping in all family members anyway. [00:21:00] My mum is at the front of reception getting people, [00:21:05] uh, welcoming people. Anyway, as people arrived, like three [00:21:10] young dental students, she’s just gone and hugged them and gone. Hi, I’m [00:21:15] Joe’s mum. And I’m like, oh yeah, yeah, this is supposed to be like an educational [00:21:20] conference or whatever. Like. And then I was like, she’s great. Yeah, yeah, she’s great. And I was like, you know [00:21:25] what you do? You love it. Like it was. It was just, you [00:21:30] know, we always talk about authenticity. It was very real, very natural. And it was quite funny. After [00:21:35] the event, I put a little thing on my Instagram saying, who would you like to [00:21:40] hear from next year? And so many people wrote, we’d love to hear from your mum. It was [00:21:45] like if it had been my pals writing, your mum might have been like, you know, like old school joke. But I [00:21:50] think it was like genuine, like, hey, get her up there and have her say something. So yeah. So Jack [00:21:55] and Sophie are full time at Pearl as well, and they’re doing really well, really enjoying it, travelling a [00:22:00] lot and loving the Dental industry.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, to your point, I was looking for a particular [00:22:05] podcast. It was called The Church of Something. Yeah, that was a comedy podcast and [00:22:10] it wouldn’t find it on Spotify and it just found this other thing. It was a [00:22:15] church marketing. Marketing for Churches in American podcast. [00:22:20] Yeah. Okay. And and I just the guys just started talking and I was like, I was the wrong bloody podcast. But then [00:22:25] I just thought, let’s listen to what they’ve got to say about marketing. Yeah. Like Because, you know.

Joe Lovett: Some [00:22:30] of those churches in America.

Payman Langroudi: But also as an organisation, right. You’ve got 2000 years of success, [00:22:35] right? You’ve got to you’ve got to you’ve got to take your hat off to that. Right. So I thought, [00:22:40] let me just see what they’ve got to say. And what they were saying was so interesting, man. They were saying, hey, you know, there could [00:22:45] be a coffee machine, but you would never just have a coffee machine. You would have someone serving coffee [00:22:50] and talking to people when they serve coffee, and you’ve got a car park, but you’d never just leave [00:22:55] a car park. You’d have a couple of people in the car park shaking people’s hands. Yeah. As as they walk in. [00:23:00] And we set a rule for our team that you’ve got to shake ten hands, [00:23:05] you’ve got to get touch, you know, hug, hug three people and get one person’s [00:23:10] deep story. And everyone’s got to get that. And you know, we look at it afterwards and [00:23:15] and I thought, you know that’s that’s what we’re talking about here. You know your your mom hugging these people. [00:23:20] Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: But I’m not telling my mom to to hug ten people I know.

Payman Langroudi: I know.

Joe Lovett: She’s doing it naturally [00:23:25] because anyway.

Payman Langroudi: They’re doing it naturally because they’re there to help their volunteers. Yeah, [00:23:30] but it’s an interesting thing. It’s an interesting point. Yeah. That that sort of contact, human contact [00:23:35] with, there’s so little of it these days that that.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, I kind of I loathe [00:23:40] the whole corporate thing. Like I’ve been to probably hundreds of conferences, [00:23:45] um, around the world. And it all just feels [00:23:50] very kind of like staid. And I used to hate doing [00:23:55] them because, you know, you’re in a suit for three days, so. So anything that I do, I [00:24:00] want it to feel a bit more relaxed. And, you know, still that [00:24:05] you’re getting educational value out of the event, but at the same time, you [00:24:10] know, not feeling like you have to come and you’re going to have to take notes, speak to people and think, I [00:24:15] want it to feel like a warm, friendly, inviting environment.

Payman Langroudi: Especially the event that it is. [00:24:20] Right. So. So explain what the event is. The fast tracking your future [00:24:25] event. What is.

Joe Lovett: That? Sure. So it’s really the genesis of a program that I’ve been doing [00:24:30] for the last four years. And funnily enough, going back to Amit Patel. He was the catalyst [00:24:35] for it. So, um, and going back to people like Simon Chard, [00:24:40] I was watching people like Simon doing all these amazing things during lockdown, [00:24:45] and it was great to see so many dentists and dental professionals giving [00:24:50] back to their communities and trying to do something positive in what ever, you know, sort of [00:24:55] small way. It was, and I and I was talking to am on the phone because we speak regularly and I was [00:25:00] like, what should I do? And I feel like I want to do something for our community. I’ve got [00:25:05] time on my hands. And he really spoke to me and said, you’ve got a bank [00:25:10] of knowledge that you take for granted that I built up over my years predominantly at FMC. [00:25:15] So things like, how do I enter awards, how do I get published, you know, how do [00:25:20] I build commercial relationships with companies? You know, how do I get a speaker gig? [00:25:25] And so I just popped something up on my Instagram, and [00:25:30] I had very few followers at the time, but it just absolutely snowballed. And I think [00:25:35] what happened was, I think, funnily enough, one day who you had on the other day was one of the first people that I spoke to, [00:25:40] and then they post it and then ten more people get in contact. [00:25:45] And I think in the May of the first lockdown, I spoke to 150 [00:25:50] young dentists, hygienists, nurses, and [00:25:55] it was really interesting. We get into a deep dive about the non-clinical side of the career, like, [00:26:00] what do you want? What do you what do you want to achieve at the time?

Payman Langroudi: What were you thinking you were getting out of [00:26:05] it? Was it just giving back or was it, were you were you being strategic?

Joe Lovett: Genuinely [00:26:10] not strategic.

Payman Langroudi: Just trying to give back somehow.

Joe Lovett: And fill up [00:26:15] the day? I was I mean, it’s a long story living with a racist American [00:26:20] at the time. Uh, yeah. Maybe [00:26:25] a story for after a couple of beers, but we were just, like, co-existing, [00:26:30] but, like, so diametrically opposed in our thoughts and opinions. I’d met [00:26:35] her on a trip, on a holiday, and then she was like, oh, I’m going to move in, like, okay. And then [00:26:40] day after she arrived, lockdown. Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. Wild. [00:26:45] Um, so I was like, okay, I need to do something to fill my days. And [00:26:50] also, I enjoy talking to people. Like, I like meeting new people. I like learning about people. [00:26:55] It’s a passion of mine. And then all I was saying to people was, look, if you [00:27:00] get something tangible off the back of this call, donate £20 [00:27:05] to the NHS frontline. And it went so well. And I just decided to do it [00:27:10] each year. And it like nothing is truly altruistic. But [00:27:15] it didn’t go in.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of giving back during Covid. Yeah. Lots of us were thinking, what can I [00:27:20] do? Right? Exactly. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: But then the benefits of that was, was I [00:27:25] got to understand what young people were thinking about, you know, what are the reoccurring themes, [00:27:30] um, that are bothering them, giving them problems. We got into a real deep dive, [00:27:35] really got into the weeds with a lot of people. And then also it enabled me to make a lot of connections. [00:27:40] So I did that for four years and then last year and many.

Payman Langroudi: Many of the young sort [00:27:45] of influencers that we see out there now came through that program.

Joe Lovett: They were [00:27:50] so and a lot of them do say very nice things to me and, and acknowledge [00:27:55] and say, oh, you know, you were the catalyst and you were like, Joe the plug. I sometimes [00:28:00] get called as well, or Uncle Joe, I don’t like that one as much. Um, but, [00:28:05] uh, yeah. And what I say to them was these [00:28:10] guys were rising stars, you know, nothing was going to get in their way. Maybe [00:28:15] all I did was just facilitate a few connections a little [00:28:20] sooner. Than than they had. They’ve done it by themselves. That was. That was all. Um, [00:28:25] so then last year, um, my mom’s best friend, actually, [00:28:30] who worked at Dental directory, um, passed away of ovarian cancer, [00:28:35] and I was at lunch with my mom, and I said, look, let’s do [00:28:40] something to raise money for the hospice that she was involved with because we changed the charity each year. It’s [00:28:45] like, let’s focus on Lorraine’s charity this year. I was like, let’s go bigger and bolder [00:28:50] and let’s just try something. Let’s take fast tracking your future and do it live. [00:28:55] And I was so fortunate in that the [00:29:00] likes of Monique Rona Shumway. You went like [00:29:05] all these mega stars from from from dentistry. Agreed [00:29:10] to come on board that day and speak it and be part of it. And, [00:29:15] uh, it was a beautiful day. It was, it was it was really nice. It’s [00:29:20] just great meeting so many young dentists who are appreciative of of that day. I think the [00:29:25] speakers got a lot out of it because they made new connections and, you know, young [00:29:30] dentists were coming to them going, oh, I’ve been following you for such a long time. Can I get a photo? So they got that [00:29:35] affirmation and I think the sponsors had a good time as well. Because you know this, [00:29:40] you’ll see it as well. This new generation of young dentists [00:29:45] coming through, they are so ambitious. They really want to be doing things, [00:29:50] you know, very, very quickly. And being able to provide companies with a [00:29:55] platform in order to engage with them, I think was really great.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve kind [00:30:00] of answered the question that I’m about to ask anyway just now, but have [00:30:05] you heard of effective altruism?

Joe Lovett: Explain what that means to me. [00:30:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s like if the goal is to raise the maximum amount of money for the charity. Yeah. [00:30:15] If that’s the goal. Yeah. Um, then why don’t you just go work [00:30:20] hard for a month and just donate that money? Like it should be more money [00:30:25] than you’d raise in a charity event. It’s a [00:30:30] bit. It’s a bit ridiculous, a bit reductive. Yeah. The reductive nature of it is. Hey, okay, I’m a dentist. [00:30:35] I go join Médecins Sans Frontieres, go to a war zone, pull out some teeth. [00:30:40] Yeah, yeah, but if I want to alleviate maximum pain, I should go be a dentist, [00:30:45] sell teeth whitening to rich people, and then donate money for dentists [00:30:50] in in Sudan to do the work, because that will get the most people out of [00:30:55] pain. But it’s kind of for me, nice to go over [00:31:00] and do my bit personally look into the eyes of the person.

Joe Lovett: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:31:05]

Joe Lovett: I’ve done that as well. So I’ve been involved a few times with [00:31:10] the Handicapped Children’s Pilgrimage Trust, where we’ve been taking a group of [00:31:15] handicapped children to to France. And, um, [00:31:20] he was real, like front line. No, but we’re exhausting.

Payman Langroudi: Are you there? Yeah, I was there because the [00:31:25] most effective thing would be for you not to be there. And you earning money and sending someone who’s minimum wage [00:31:30] there. So effective altruism. Then you could take double the number of kids. So. But [00:31:35] but the act of being there feeds you. Yeah. And it’s and [00:31:40] you know, you just talked about the the day. Yeah. The sponsors had a great time. Sure. The [00:31:45] charity got raised some money. The young dentists, you know, it was a it was a wonderful [00:31:50] thing. Yes. You answered the question already. Yeah. There’s more value to to these things than just [00:31:55] the goal. The charity goal? Sure.

Joe Lovett: I mean, not to sound like too much of a Holy Joe. Yeah. Like, literally. But [00:32:00] like, I’ve done the both. I’ve done the let’s take the ticket revenue and [00:32:05] donate it to the charity. And they can push it, apportion it accordingly. But then also [00:32:10] I’ve done the front line thing as well. Um, so yeah, I think both [00:32:15] is important.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on from this, because I’ve gone [00:32:20] down this rabbit hole before and I’ve always thought, why did I say that? Why, why, why am I bothering with that? Is that Sam [00:32:25] Bankman-Fried? Do you know him? No. He was this crypto billionaire who ended up in jail because he [00:32:30] took people’s money. But he was he was obsessed with effective altruism. So his whole thing [00:32:35] was, how do I make the world better? Like. And he was stealing people’s money to do it, right? [00:32:40] There it.

Joe Lovett: Is. I’m definitely not stealing people’s [00:32:45] money.

Payman Langroudi: Um, let’s talk about FMC.

Joe Lovett: Okay, cool.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant [00:32:50] organisation. Um, when when you joined FMC, [00:32:55] I was working with FMC every day. Yeah, I still work with FMC, but. But you know, [00:33:00] the way the media landscape has changed now with digital platforms [00:33:05] and so on, right? But what was it like? I mean, that company definitely has like a something special about [00:33:10] it for sure. In terms of the atmosphere when you go there, the way it feels [00:33:15] like everyone’s pulling in the right same direction, a little bit of style and [00:33:20] pizzazz and and then to, you know, you can’t you can’t ignore it at the end [00:33:25] of the day. Ken. Um, he he just knows how to hit, [00:33:30] hit, hit a nail on the head with some ideas of his, you know, top 50. [00:33:35] Yeah. Awards, these sort of things. And I can even appreciate these things come from other industries. [00:33:40] And he just applied it to the industry. But that itself, that itself is genius, right? He’s a true [00:33:45] dude. Tell me, tell me about the the process of getting that job and then working there.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, [00:33:50] it’s interesting actually, because I was speaking to Gabby Bissett from UK on the way over [00:33:55] here, actually, and I was saying to her we were just, I was saying, how’s things going and everything? And [00:34:00] she works remotely. So when she comes to the office she’s like, there’s so many new faces. But [00:34:05] from what she was telling me, the ethos that Ken, you know, first [00:34:10] laid the first bricks for it’s still there. It’s still that kind of hard working, [00:34:15] you know, high energy. So when [00:34:20] I first started working there, I distinctly remember it. You know, Julian English, [00:34:25] the enigmatic guy. He was walking around, uh, shoes off, [00:34:30] I think, shirt unbuttoned to the navel. He was editorial director with [00:34:35] this huge box of chocolates. I remember being in the waiting area. He was like, would you like one young [00:34:40] man? I was like, you know what Julian’s like? You just instantly fall in love with him. [00:34:45] And it was a cool offices, like low wood beams, converted barn. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you never went to the previous one?

Joe Lovett: No, I never went to the first one. I never went to the first one. That [00:34:55] was different. I was like, I remember being nervous for my second interview because I really felt the pressure of [00:35:00] my days. I want to work here. Like, oh, you.

Payman Langroudi: Wanted the job.

Joe Lovett: I really wanted the job bad. I was [00:35:05] I was always very like chilled out in interviews because I saw it as a matchmaking process. [00:35:10] But with this one I felt the pressure because I was like, I really want to be a part of this. And [00:35:15] honestly, it was just a riot. Like [00:35:20] for the first year. Fun. So much fun.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, fun and hard [00:35:25] work together. It’s such a brilliant combination.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, and I didn’t realise that [00:35:30] I was working, because if you think about it, I’m not sure how many they have now, but back in the day we had seven [00:35:35] awards throughout the year and it’d be like Ireland, Scotland. So it will all be different [00:35:40] types of parties and drink. And then what you didn’t realise was when [00:35:45] you were at the bar at 2:00 in the morning and you were, I don’t know, with you maybe like you’re [00:35:50] making a connection, that’s work. But even at the time of my life and getting paid for it as well. [00:35:55] So it was absolutely brilliant. And don’t get me wrong, it’s [00:36:00] only now looking back that I was working hard throughout my 20s [00:36:05] when we were getting up at 6:00 in the morning and driving up to some lamp in Bradford [00:36:10] or wherever.

Payman Langroudi: Trying to sell him an.

Joe Lovett: Ad. Yeah. Bye bye. A half page advert in this publication. [00:36:15] And we were always told by Kimberly Finlayson, like, get the petrol money or don’t come [00:36:20] home, just cover the cost of the petrol. And I loved it. I loved meeting new people. I [00:36:25] loved the buzz of of selling. I love being at the idea of like being able to help people, [00:36:30] you know, achieve their goals. And, and I loved the people that I worked [00:36:35] with, you know, I’ve got some great friends from there as well. And we’ve had some wild times. [00:36:40] Wild, wild times. I probably can’t say too much about it, but it’s interesting. Actually. One [00:36:45] of my clients invited me over this week for their Christmas party in [00:36:50] Zurich, and honestly, it was so like respectful [00:36:55] was the word. We were handed him sheets. The corporate no, not even [00:37:00] a big corporate a Start-Up. Probably the similar size to what FMC was the time. And we’re singing like [00:37:05] Silent Night in German. Oh, God. And then. Yeah. And I’m thinking, wow, [00:37:10] you know, like back in the day of like, FMC was like casual nudity [00:37:15] and some sort of, like, soap opera going on and fights [00:37:20] like. Yeah, it was um.

Payman Langroudi: And, well, how do you feel when you see, uh, Craig [00:37:25] and Tim and Jason now buying the thing? I mean, like sort of that [00:37:30] management buyout that they did.

Joe Lovett: Good for them, man. What I would say about those guys [00:37:35] is they have an unparalleled work [00:37:40] ethic.

Payman Langroudi: Those individuals.

Joe Lovett: Uh, Craig and Tim on the roads. If [00:37:45] there’s people working harder than them in the Dental industry, [00:37:50] I’m yet to see them. Is that right? They are so dogged and [00:37:55] determined. They’re just relentless. And to have been working there for as long [00:38:00] as they have been, and to still have that determination and those levels [00:38:05] of energy. Because let’s be honest, most people you get comfortable in a [00:38:10] job, you find out the best way to cut corners. You get fat and happy, right? Yeah. [00:38:15] To still have that fire. All credit to them. And also not to be [00:38:20] too sycophantic to to coiner Ken Finlayson’s phrase. Um, [00:38:25] what they’ve done. So one of the catalysts for me leaving was we were very print reliant. [00:38:30] And I remember having a conversation with you actually, like, the world’s going digital, right? [00:38:35] And I’m here trying to sell you an advert in a publication. Yeah. What [00:38:40] they’ve done really, really effectively is segway into the digital world. Yeah. Really, really effectively. [00:38:45] Yeah, but you were a trailblazer in that field. I remember having the conversation [00:38:50] with you, like, look what I can do on these platforms and look what I can do with these partners. I [00:38:55] think you really cottoned on to it much sooner than.

Payman Langroudi: You were slow to get yours yourself. You were you were [00:39:00] you weren’t on social media at all. And then suddenly you were like a slow start. Slow starter. [00:39:05] Fast learner. Suddenly you were like, all about Instagram.

Joe Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:39:10] remember saying to you, hey, social media. And you were like, no, not me, not me, I remember that. Well, it was like, do [00:39:15] you remember those original guys who didn’t want a mobile phone? Indy?

Joe Lovett: Yeah, I didn’t [00:39:20] want a mobile phone. I think the term is a Luddite. I don’t know, I just [00:39:25] because Facebook was the big thing. Yeah, yeah. You did.

Payman Langroudi: You were even on Facebook.

Joe Lovett: You like Facebook? [00:39:30] You skipped altogether? Yeah. Completely skipped it. I don’t I [00:39:35] think probably it was more about like being present and enjoying the moment [00:39:40] and probably also an element of I don’t want anybody to take this photo and put it [00:39:45] up online, you know, tag me.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes we script ourselves, you know, like we just script ourselves [00:39:50] into, you know, for no reason. I didn’t fancy doing much, [00:39:55] uh, Google AdWords right now. I wish I had, but [00:40:00] I scripted myself into saying that’s not that’s not the way I want to Sell?

Joe Lovett: Possibly. [00:40:05] Maybe. I thought like it was a cool thing. I’d made a stance like. Yeah, you made [00:40:10] a stance about it. I think I did, and I think my.

Payman Langroudi: Brother did the same. My brother still isn’t [00:40:15] on social media. I’m telling him, hey, now jump into TikTok. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:40:20] you don’t have to be doing all the rest. Tiktok is amazing in that sense.

Joe Lovett: I [00:40:25] mean, would you tell him he could be pulled down within the next six months by the Americans? Tiktok.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:40:30] I think they’ll do a deal.

Joe Lovett: No, I don’t think it will happen either.

Payman Langroudi: Well you’re right. I mean, it’s actually [00:40:35] mid January is the date.

Joe Lovett: Yeah for sure.

Payman Langroudi: In America they’re gonna maybe close it, [00:40:40] but hopefully they’ll do a deal. I mean anyway my point on on [00:40:45] are you on TikTok? No, not on TikTok.

Joe Lovett: Not on TikTok. No, I [00:40:50] but I feel like I should be. Yeah, I just I don’t really [00:40:55] like it social and I’m glued to it all the time [00:41:00] and it irritates me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, we’re all struggling, but I, [00:41:05] I’m such a believer in the importance of it.

Payman Langroudi: We’re all struggling with that. [00:41:10] Yeah. But what I quite like, dude, about it is just the very simple thing that when [00:41:15] we met, when me and you met, if there was a young dentist who had something to say, yeah, [00:41:20] they would have had to have the sort of the luck of the.

Joe Lovett: Draw, sure. [00:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Of meeting someone like you. And the chances of that were close [00:41:30] to zero. Yeah. And there could be a young dentist sitting in Folkestone who wants to say something about, [00:41:35] sure, about a nurses lot or something like that, and had no [00:41:40] way of getting that information out. And then you’d have the odd anointed people. Yeah. Mervyn [00:41:45] Drouin or, I don’t.

Joe Lovett: Know, young dentist. No no no, no. Richard Field [00:41:50] or somebody like that. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Before Richard Field anointed experts. Yes. Expert. And they [00:41:55] were. But by the way, sometimes those guys were experts because they’d had to go up a university ladder [00:42:00] or whatever it was. They’d have to be someone, someone already very experienced. Those people [00:42:05] would have a voice and no one else would. And today we’ve got the opposite problem of everyone’s [00:42:10] got a voice and it’s congested with with.

Joe Lovett: Voices through the noise. [00:42:15] Yeah. But still.

Payman Langroudi: The good thing is if you when it’s got something to say and [00:42:20] she’s got something to say and it’s of value, she, you know, she can get it out. [00:42:25] And then the quality of what she’s got to say determines the reach. And that’s beautiful, [00:42:30] man.

Joe Lovett: It’s so beautiful. It’s great in that respect.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the democratisation of [00:42:35] of of of it, you know.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. You feel the burden a little bit of. Okay, [00:42:40] I have to promote my next event. Yeah. You know, [00:42:45] I don’t want to do it. I’d much rather be a little bit more organic and just using [00:42:50] it for fun, but it is a business networking tool, and it’s interesting. I get asked all the time [00:42:55] by young dentists like, oh, do I need to be on it? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Hell yeah.

Joe Lovett: Hell, [00:43:00] yeah is like, you don’t need need to be on it.

Payman Langroudi: Of [00:43:05] course not. You can. You can do.

Joe Lovett: Whatever you want. You could go and do your 9 to [00:43:10] 5 and enjoy it and and love your dentistry, but you will miss out on potential opportunities. [00:43:15] That’s just a fact. You will miss out on potential great connections. [00:43:20] You will miss out on being educated on certain certain things. [00:43:25] So there’s real value in it. Real value in it.

Payman Langroudi: You know what it is. Like, we don’t all have to. [00:43:30] We can. Some of us can watch a movie or listen to music and not necessarily make [00:43:35] a movie or make music. Yeah. That’s true. Yeah, it’s it’s [00:43:40] a medium of entertainment and education and whatever else you want to call it, news or whatever, [00:43:45] and you can just be a consumer of it.

Joe Lovett: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lurker I think [00:43:50] they call them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So then but the problem is all of us are [00:43:55] consumers of it. All of us. Yeah. There’s very, very few people who are not consumers of [00:44:00] it. And so if that’s the case, if all the consumers, all the attention is there.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. And [00:44:05] I say this to particularly my clients, international clients, it’s like [00:44:10] everything takes place on social media. Yeah. If you were coming into this [00:44:15] country and you want to have a presence and you want to have your finger [00:44:20] on the pulse of the market, you have to be on social media and they go, okay, okay, okay. And like [00:44:25] they always within 6 to 12 months come to me. And they’re like, we [00:44:30] didn’t realise to quite what extent the dental industry and dental profession [00:44:35] takes place on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. In the U.K., in the U.K., [00:44:40] in the U.K., it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve got quite a lot of sort of knowledge of other markets. Where would [00:44:45] you say we’re at in the UK regarding sort of how progressed we are or [00:44:50] how behind we are?

Joe Lovett: Yeah. Well, they always used to talk about UK dentistry was ten years behind [00:44:55] American Dentistry, which I don’t believe that at all. And social media has helped to [00:45:00] bridge that gap in terms of I can follow a dentist in Los Angeles or New [00:45:05] York and see what they’re doing and see how they’re operating their practice and, and emulate that here. [00:45:10] So I would say definitely not behind. Definitely not behind.

Payman Langroudi: Look [00:45:15] ahead though, as far as for instance, you’re saying social media. There must be markets where [00:45:20] I’m guessing the German market isn’t so run by social media.

Joe Lovett: No, no. [00:45:25] But would you then describe that as being ahead? Yeah. You describe it as being. You think the German market [00:45:30] will go that way? Yeah. Oh, interesting.

Payman Langroudi: In terms of I’m not saying ahead in terms of like quality ahead [00:45:35] of in terms of timeline, you know. So I do think oh.

Joe Lovett: Well in that respect then. Yeah, [00:45:40] UK dentistry is way ahead in terms of social media usage and [00:45:45] and using it as a platform to communicate and engage with patients and, and you know, [00:45:50] your peers.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But it must be happening everywhere right as well. Yeah. I had a [00:45:55] guy I mean, maybe because I’m an Iranian, these Iranian composite bonding dentists coming [00:46:00] up on my feed here, and they were using social media to get composite bonding cases, you know, like it’s like in [00:46:05] the same way as they do here, even even more production value and all that.

Joe Lovett: I get Indian [00:46:10] dentists ask me about jobs all the time. All the time.

Payman Langroudi: Some of the practices in India, I’ve seen some [00:46:15] beautiful looking practices from India, you know.

Joe Lovett: Did you spend time with have you been over there? No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I’ve been to [00:46:20] India several times, but but not not for work. Um, but I just saw some, some some videos. [00:46:25] You know, it’s the same thing. It feeds you what you’re looking at.

Joe Lovett: The algorithm.

Payman Langroudi: And suddenly, you see, it’s like an echo [00:46:30] chamber, isn’t it? That’s. That’s the point of it.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, okay, FMC, you [00:46:35] decided to leave and [00:46:40] set up your own. Did you decide to leave because you wanted to set up your.

Joe Lovett: Own, or [00:46:45] was I forcibly removed? No. Um, it was twofold. [00:46:50] I hit ten years and [00:46:55] I had a bit of an epiphany. I was like, what’s the next ten years going to look like? You know, you reflect, [00:47:00] but also look forward.

Payman Langroudi: Is this just a pre-COVID? Right?

Joe Lovett: Yes. Yeah, [00:47:05] exactly. Um, and I thought we were very print reliant and [00:47:10] I didn’t see us making that jump to digital. [00:47:15] Yeah, soon. And it made me nervous. I didn’t want to be approaching 40 and [00:47:20] be a dinosaur. So that was a definite catalyst [00:47:25] for catalyst. Sorry. Cringeworthy. Um, and then also, [00:47:30] I was like. I’d managed a team as [00:47:35] a sales director there, and I was crap at it, honestly. [00:47:40] I’ve always been sort of the oldest of five, you know, always been the football [00:47:45] captain. I’ve always thought I’ve been a natural leader, but [00:47:50] I didn’t realise at the time. Some huge gulf between being a good leader [00:47:55] and being a good manager. You know who I was? Pay. I was David Brent. I [00:48:00] just wanted everybody to love me and have a good time and everything like that. But that doesn’t lend yourself to [00:48:05] being a good manager. So I, I really didn’t enjoy that [00:48:10] element of people know I was, I was I was bad at it. I was bad at it. I [00:48:15] always struggle with with trying to rationalise with people. I remember we had one guy, I [00:48:20] won’t name him. He’s not in dentistry anymore.

Joe Lovett: But, um, he was cheating on his expenses, [00:48:25] right? And every month have a difficult conversation with him. I [00:48:30] remember one, one particular month and I would always let it [00:48:35] slide. But one particular month, he bought a bottle of champagne on a Saturday night [00:48:40] in a club. Right. And I pulled him up. I said, sorry, [00:48:45] what? From what meeting was this from? I was out with a dental nurse. Joe [00:48:50] was like, okay, you do realise we’re the department that sells ads [00:48:55] to enlighten Colgate? You know GSK? Yeah. [00:49:00] Excuse me, Joe, but their practice. They use FMC for CPD. [00:49:05] Right. Okay, but we’re not that. I think you’re out of order, Joe. You’ve changed since. [00:49:10] And I’m like, I’m trying to rationalise with somebody who’s been completely irrational, [00:49:15] and I just, uh, I really I wasn’t authoritative [00:49:20] enough. I hadn’t set the bar high enough in terms of my own standards to, [00:49:25] to, to, to, to be a good manager. So I was kind of a little bit fed up of that. [00:49:30] So yeah, that was a motivation for let’s do this, do it on my own and let’s see how [00:49:35] it goes.

Payman Langroudi: You seem to have done it in kind of a painless kind of way, but I’m sure there was massive trepidation [00:49:40] and risk and.

[TRANSITION]: Uh, you.

Joe Lovett: Know, [00:49:45] is the brutally honest answer. Um, [00:49:50] and I don’t want to sound conceited here, but I always felt [00:49:55] like I’d worked hard enough to build up enough relationships and a good enough reputation [00:50:00] whereby if it did go belly up, it was like, give it a year, let’s give it two years. [00:50:05] I could get a job back in dentistry. It is very much an industry [00:50:10] that takes care of its own. And and you will see it going to the shows. There’s a [00:50:15] lot of the same faces.

Payman Langroudi: And people moving companies as well.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, yeah. They will jump from composite company to [00:50:20] composite company. Um, so I don’t think, you know, I always [00:50:25] had that failsafe of I can get a job back in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such a brilliant [00:50:30] point here, because I remember wanting to stop being a dentist, [00:50:35] and I grappled with it, and I hated it. And I did one day a week for six years, you [00:50:40] know, because I just didn’t want to stop being a dentist until Prav kind of [00:50:45] gave me permission to stop, Really?

Joe Lovett: But [00:50:50] for me, what you did. And not to blow too much smoke. But it’s a [00:50:55] much more significant jump than what I did. Because you’ve studied long and hard to be a clinician, [00:51:00] right? So to jump from being a clinician to a business person and an entrepreneur [00:51:05] and a business owner, and to have as many people here as you do, and I know it wasn’t [00:51:10] always the case, but to be responsible for people’s livelihoods, there’s [00:51:15] a huge amount of pressure.

Payman Langroudi: 15 or 16 years in. Yeah, I was still doing one day a week of dentistry. [00:51:20] And lighten was 15 years old at the time. Right. So enlightened was a going concern. I [00:51:25] knew I kind of wanted to stop a little bit, but at the same time, you define yourself by [00:51:30] your job somehow. And Prav gave me permission. He kind of kind of [00:51:35] said, listen, you’ll never make anything of enlightened if you don’t stop. Which I don’t think was true. I don’t [00:51:40] think it was true. But he was saying that. And then the other thing he said was he could always [00:51:45] come back and be a dentist again, which is which is kind of the point you just made. Yeah. And it’s for dentists. It’s actually. [00:51:50] That’s a very important point. Yeah. You can stop for five years. Yeah. [00:51:55] If your circumstances allow. Yeah. You can stop for five full years because plenty [00:52:00] of mothers do that and come back and become dentists. Yeah. And you could go back [00:52:05] and you can feed your family. Yeah. As an associate, let’s say it all goes belly up. [00:52:10] Terrible nightmare. Whatever you tried. Yeah. Come back. You’re going to earn your 100 grand as an associate [00:52:15] or whatever it is you’re up to as an associate. Feed your family. Start rebuilding again. [00:52:20] And when you’re young. Yeah. I was 28 when we started enlightened. Okay. [00:52:25] But that’s five years time. Now you’re 33. Yeah. [00:52:30] You know you can do it. It’s doable. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s knowing that you can come back [00:52:35] is such an important point. Because when you’re a dentist, even when you go on two weeks holiday, when you come back, you [00:52:40] feel a bit rusty. Yeah. Because the muscle memory.

Joe Lovett: Of that.

Payman Langroudi: Conversation. So the idea that you could [00:52:45] go away for five years and come back. Just seems ridiculous.

Joe Lovett: I think there’s also [00:52:50] a bit of a stepping stone that I’m seeing as well, with a lot of of dentists, whereby [00:52:55] they perhaps can do two days working with a company as [00:53:00] well and have that kind of blended.

Payman Langroudi: Role.

Joe Lovett: And think, oh, actually, I [00:53:05] don’t hate this. I could see myself doing a little bit more of it and moving more towards [00:53:10] it, but it’s just making that initial leap, which is the challenge.

Payman Langroudi: Do you empathise with these young dentists [00:53:15] who say, I want to work three days a week, full stop, and that’s the lifestyle I want? Because it’s [00:53:20] I do, I definitely do. I think it’s the future that people should be able to say that and it shouldn’t be a problem. But a lot of practice [00:53:25] owners don’t like it.

Joe Lovett: I can see why they have an issue with that because it’s difficult [00:53:30] to.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult to run their.

Joe Lovett: Businesses. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. But so many young [00:53:35] dentists that I speak to have got side hustles, you know, separate businesses. [00:53:40] Yeah. Yeah. They’re very entrepreneurial. Some of these guys and do [00:53:45] three days clinical, two days on the business or one day on the business.

Payman Langroudi: And what kind of [00:53:50] businesses?

Joe Lovett: Oh all sorts. Yeah, everything. Things in.

Payman Langroudi: The industry.

Joe Lovett: Completely. [00:53:55] You know, like some of them are personal trainers, some of them are doing app [00:54:00] development. Some of them are, you know, developing businesses within dentistry that, you know, products [00:54:05] and things like that. Toothbrushes, toothpaste. So I see all manner of different jobs and opportunities [00:54:10] out there as well for young dentists.

Payman Langroudi: But what do you what’s your advice? I get asked [00:54:15] a lot by a lot of dentists about toothpaste, a lot [00:54:20] almost every day. It’s becoming much more common thing [00:54:25] because toothpaste has become a thing right? Since Hismile and Moon. Yeah. [00:54:30] You know, like high end toothpaste has become a thing. That. And I get [00:54:35] asked a lot about this. My advice is beware.

Joe Lovett: It’s such a saturated [00:54:40] market.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not even toothpaste. Any business. Yeah, Where? Where? Right. Yeah. [00:54:45] Because people, people, people, people want to have their own business. Sure. Yeah. Go do it. [00:54:50] Do it. But I mean, you you went painlessly into your own business, consulting [00:54:55] businesses, at least one of those businesses. That is kind of low risk and. Sure. It took [00:55:00] me five years of massive pain and loss of I mean, you know, we lost three [00:55:05] quarters of £1 million in the first.

Joe Lovett: And also you’re having to invest heavily in R&D and stuff like that. [00:55:10] Me, it’s my laptop and my knowledge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Putting your house on the line, begging, borrowing from parents [00:55:15] to just stay alive. You know what I mean? Beware is the thing. Now, once you [00:55:20] know that. Hell yeah. Go for it.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, I would say it’s really important to have enough [00:55:25] of a differentiator. Yeah. You really? Because like we said earlier, there’s so much [00:55:30] noise out there. If you can siphon through it, it has to be with something really stand [00:55:35] out, something really, really unique.

Payman Langroudi: I think particularly if you’re selling to dentists. Yeah. Particularly [00:55:40] for senator dentists. The consumers. Again, the the marketing needs to be unique. Yeah. [00:55:45] But you’re also right in that people think, oh, there’s 100 [00:55:50] fashion, there’s 100 hoodies you can buy. Each one of them is based on the brand. [00:55:55] Yeah. And people get themselves lost in the idea that brand is everything. And brand is not everything, [00:56:00] man. Yeah. Brand is something. It’s one corner. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: It’s a component.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:56:05] it’s a component. But people lose themselves in that notion that it’s only about brand. Yeah. [00:56:10] And it’s not.

Joe Lovett: No no no no no. It’s just a small facet for [00:56:15] sure.

Payman Langroudi: The companies that you’ve brought in. Paul. Yeah. Brilliant. Interesting. [00:56:20] Very interesting.

Joe Lovett: Cool. Right. It’s like sexy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not, I [00:56:25] think, sexy as a product. Yeah. Yeah. Um, brand wise, I don’t know, but I had Ophir on [00:56:30] on on the podcast. Interesting.

Joe Lovett: Dude. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So.

Joe Lovett: So one of these mega brains. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: What a brain.

Joe Lovett: What? He’s irritating, I fear, because He’s [00:56:40] like obviously super, super intelligent, but he’s like nauseatingly handsome [00:56:45] as well. And he’s a cool guy. Like good fun to hang out with. I’m like, I don’t want to like you, but I [00:56:50] can’t not.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never hung out with him, but I got the feeling from him like, it’s [00:56:55] an interesting thing. Like now everyone’s talking, I. Yeah. But I said to him, so when did [00:57:00] you start with I. It was like 2007, 2007. He was playing with [00:57:05] I. Yeah. And you really realised, you know, that notion of hey, don’t just follow the latest [00:57:10] trend because, you know, there’s people who’ve been working on something.

Joe Lovett: He’s a trailblazer. But you know, he’s [00:57:15] 1 in.

Payman Langroudi: 1,000,000 and the and the and the technology came from sort of this computer [00:57:20] learning.

Joe Lovett: Machine learning.

Payman Langroudi: Of logos where their previous company, they were measuring [00:57:25] the number of impressions of a logo across all media so that they could [00:57:30] have companies measure.

Joe Lovett: Predominantly in sports.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I don’t know if AIG [00:57:35] sponsored Manchester United, they’d want to know how many extra hours of that logo? I [00:57:40] mean, genius in itself. But then he used that technology to train the [00:57:45] model for Pearl. Yes. Which is digital. So how did he come to you? How did that happen? [00:57:50]

Joe Lovett: It’s, uh. I’ve been very, very blessed in terms of new business, [00:57:55] in that it’s always been word of mouth. And [00:58:00] I think that because global dentistry is actually pretty small and [00:58:05] there are various players in each market, it’s like, listen, if you want a [00:58:10] quicker route to market, that’s the guy to speak to. So it was literally just a connection of an existing [00:58:15] connection. And it’s interesting because it feels very direct as well. [00:58:20] And um, he said, well, what can you do for us? And I told him some of [00:58:25] the things that I believed I could help her with. And he went, I don’t believe you can do any [00:58:30] of those things. Don’t be sorry. I don’t believe you can do all of those things. But for [00:58:35] that little amount of money, let’s just give you a try. I’m like, okay. Oh, did I quote that [00:58:40] price? That’s just the starter entry. No, but put your prices up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:58:45] Um, but we’ve been working with them for, um.

Payman Langroudi: Just break it down for me. When when you’ve got that challenge. [00:58:50] What are you thinking? Well, I mean, now, but back then, you were just [00:58:55] a beginner. Now, if you see a technology you love and you think I can that’s [00:59:00] got legs in the UK, give me the cornerstones of of of what? How you’re thinking you’re going to introduce [00:59:05] it to the market. Um. Make it flourish. Sure.

Joe Lovett: Well, the first [00:59:10] hurdle is can you sell here in the UK? Yeah. So let’s look at all [00:59:15] the the regulatory the regulatory regulatory.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Joe Lovett: So there’s various people [00:59:20] there that I’ll call and speak and they’re already probably have an idea. Okay. [00:59:25] And then really hone down in how is this [00:59:30] going to help people do a better job by their patience. How is it going to make [00:59:35] more profit for their practice. And then how do we get it in front of people? Yeah. [00:59:40] What’s you know, again, going back to the noise. How [00:59:45] do we siphon through that noise? How do we put this in front of the right people? They go, you know what, [00:59:50] I like that. I’ll give it a try. And not only I’m going to give it a try, I’m going to talk about it. [00:59:55] And it’s just that snowball effect. So there is a process, but a lot of it is [01:00:00] dependent on where they are.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s imagine regulatory is taken care of. And you [01:00:05] reckon it’s a good business proposal for sure for a dentist. Now [01:00:10] we’re talking. I mean there is also the distribution and support bit after how [01:00:15] you get you know. Yeah. But how are you thinking around how do we get in front of people and get people [01:00:20] talking about it.

Joe Lovett: Well, well, the great thing is as well at this point [01:00:25] stage is there’s a burgeoning corporate market here. Yeah. [01:00:30] So you can have some very, very quick wins by saying, Look, I [01:00:35] can put you in front of the clinical director from Coliseum Group, and they have X [01:00:40] number of practices here, but they also have them throughout Europe. Or Bupa or wherever. My dentist. That’s [01:00:45] very, very appealing. You imagine if you could say to somebody from the US, [01:00:50] listen, I can put your product in front of the clinical decision [01:00:55] makers from my dentist. They are 550 practices. How does that sound to you? [01:01:00] You know, maybe they’ll look at, do a pilot and roll it out. That holds a lot of appeal. That is a very, [01:01:05] very big, quick, easy win when it comes to the high street. I’m [01:01:10] a bit like you. I’m a big believer in peer to peer recommendation. [01:01:15] So how do we get the right key opinion leaders. And [01:01:20] then going back to the platforms that they have, talking to the correct audience [01:01:25] about this new product or service, and whether that be on their socials, whether that be in articles, whether [01:01:30] that be speaking, you know, what are the are the platforms we’re using in order [01:01:35] to get it out there to the widest possible audience of people? So that’s that’s [01:01:40] now. And then we look at the schools. We look at media plan. We look at [01:01:45] then building a team out. You know, you’re going to need people on the road selling [01:01:50] or managing. Um, so yeah, it all depends on the [01:01:55] life cycle of the product and where they are and, and what their specific problems [01:02:00] are at that at that stage.

Payman Langroudi: And what are the financial arrangements between you and these [01:02:05] different companies? Is it always they’re just paying you consulting or is there sometimes a percentage [01:02:10] of sales. Kind of. So it could be whichever way they want it to be.

Joe Lovett: It works both. So I have [01:02:15] a standard monthly consulting fee or it might be a referral [01:02:20] fee for an introduction. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Mhm. And then [01:02:25] how many of those are you. I mean how far does does your influence go. I mean [01:02:30] Pearl came in what 2 or 2 or 3 years ago? Yep. Are you continuing to work for [01:02:35] them or.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. There’s still things that I can help them with.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re continuing to be there because [01:02:40] how many of these have you got going at the moment?

Joe Lovett: I would say 7 or 8.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Joe Lovett: I [01:02:45] find I can do things very quickly. Yeah, I know, I know because it’s all on my phone. It’s interesting. My dad is like, when are you going to [01:02:50] do some work? It’s like, I’ve been working all day, dude. Like, just because I’m, you [01:02:55] know, at home in a tracksuit with a pizza on my chest, you know, like, [01:03:00] it’s. But. And people sort of say to me, like, I don’t really understand what you do. [01:03:05] What they don’t realise is the largesse of what I’ve [01:03:10] done was done in my 20s. You know, I’m coming on for nearly 20 years in dentistry. That graph [01:03:15] that shows, you know, getting up at 530 in the morning and driving [01:03:20] all over the country to speak to different people, or being that last person in the bar at [01:03:25] various awards. That was, you know, the early years of [01:03:30] building those relationships, building that relationship, those reputations that have, you know, [01:03:35] are serving me well now.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I used to, if I wanted to know or [01:03:40] I still still do now, if I wanted to know who to call at Clark Dental. Yeah, I’d call [01:03:45] you or I’d call Craig and I’d say, who’s the guy at Clark Dental? And you underestimate. [01:03:50] One does underestimate the power of that.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. And I think, [01:03:55] in fact, in other markets, they value it more than even we do. The power of relationships. Yeah. [01:04:00] You know, in America, they always talk about their their Rolodex. You know, my Rolodex of contacts, my Rolodex [01:04:05] of contacts. It’s like, no, my my Rolodex of contacts is [01:04:10] the people that I can DM on Instagram. It’s people that can WhatsApp and say, hey, how are [01:04:15] you doing? Listen, I’ve got this cool thing. Can I arrange for somebody to come speak to you? Yeah, sure. Joe. Let’s do it. [01:04:20] So, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I remember listening to Chris Barrow once talking about how he keeps his network [01:04:25] live. He’s very tactical on it, you know, like he [01:04:30] he picks the top 20 people in his network. It definitely has a phone conversation.

Joe Lovett: Smart guy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely [01:04:35] has a phone conversation with them once a week. Then the next 30 years, a different thing. [01:04:40] Yeah. Are you like that or. No. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: No, I’m always talking to people. I mean, and it’s not false [01:04:45] or anything, like I genuinely care. Like, a lot of these people, I’m. I’m very, very fond of, I’ve [01:04:50] become friendly with them. I socialise with them as well. So, you know, a lot of the time [01:04:55] we’re just chit chatting. Mhm. But then when it comes to hey listen I’ve got this opportunity. [01:05:00] Do you want to take a look at it and maybe we can work together. Cool. Yeah. Let’s do it. It’s just it’s [01:05:05] very organic.

Payman Langroudi: So having worked with so many companies and in [01:05:10] your FMC days as well, and I imagine from the smallest, like you said, one, [01:05:15] one man lab to some of the biggest companies in the world, right. When you look at the invisaligns [01:05:20] and the shines that the invista [01:05:25] some of the best companies in the in the world? Sure. Three. And all that. You’ve [01:05:30] seen so many different businesses. Yeah. And and the characters in those businesses and [01:05:35] and more importantly, what the way you talked about FMC and the sort of the vibe. Yeah. [01:05:40] In the business. What are your reflections? I mean, have you have you learned lessons from the way [01:05:45] people run their businesses, their buildings, their meritocracies? [01:05:50] What have people done really well? How have you found companies that [01:05:55] you work with or you’ve worked with that are even better at it than Ken was at FMC [01:06:00] or gone? Ooh.

Joe Lovett: Good question. Um, [01:06:05] culture is really important. Yeah. The culture of of the company and having [01:06:10] people bought into it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but give me an example of that. Good and bad. Like, [01:06:15] for instance, like Stroman famous for culture, you know, huge culture company. [01:06:20]

Joe Lovett: Well, I think I can speak about this, actually. I love Stroman now. I have a [01:06:25] really, really good relationship with them. I’m very grateful they’re going to be supporting fast Track in [01:06:30] the future next year. Great great people. We’re going back. Ten years was [01:06:35] one of the worst meetings I’ve ever, ever had was at drama. [01:06:40] Yeah. Um, can I talk about that? Is that okay? Yeah. Why not? Um, so [01:06:45] funny enough, I was at IDs and Brandon had this mega stand, and they had this, like, the [01:06:50] theme that year was Hells Angels theme or something like that. Anyway, [01:06:55] they had these temporary tattoos, and I knew that I had a meeting with strawman in a couple of [01:07:00] weeks, so I got one right. I brought it back and it was all going to be part of a big pitch. [01:07:05] Okay, I was going to have this tattoo on.

Payman Langroudi: The arm and tattoo.

Joe Lovett: And it was an implant [01:07:10] with these, like, big angel wings either side of it. So it was like the size [01:07:15] of my forearm. I was like, it was going to be part of a big unveil, like, do this [01:07:20] presentation pitch at the end, roll my sleeves up and go, here’s my commitment to working [01:07:25] in partnership with the Sram Group. I’ve even got a tattoo. Everybody will laugh. They’ll shake my hand. I’ll walk [01:07:30] away with the business. Anyway, the day of the meeting, I was due to go with Ken and, [01:07:35] um, one of Ken’s kids was ill, [01:07:40] so he had to go to the doctors with him and couldn’t make it. So I had to go anyway. Walked [01:07:45] into the room and there’s nine marketing managers there. Corporate types, [01:07:50] very corporate, very corporate. And the guy who was running the team at the [01:07:55] time, he went, where’s your guv’nor? I said, I’m really sorry, kid. He’ll [01:08:00] have to go to the doctors, but I’m here and I’ll do the presentation. Fuck’s [01:08:05] sake. You look like you’ve just come straight from your paper round. Immediately [01:08:10] on the back foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, [01:08:15] back then I had a much more of a baby face, and it was hell. [01:08:20] So he’d set the precedent. These guys were grilling me. And honestly, [01:08:25] throughout the whole time I was sweating like a pregnant numpy, right? And all I could think about [01:08:30] was this god damn tattoo that I had on my forearm. I’m just like, pulling my sleeve down, [01:08:35] thinking, please, nobody see this.

Payman Langroudi: You realise you weren’t going to use that? No.

Joe Lovett: No, no. [01:08:40] Nobody ever knew about that tattoo, man. But yeah, I think [01:08:45] we went off a divergent path there.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, but we’re talking about sort of culture and we’re talking about, [01:08:50] you know, what you’ve seen. And obviously, you know, what you’ve seen is reflected by these meetings, [01:08:55] you know. So so where have you seen great, um, culture, where have you seen great [01:09:00] companies and, and what mistakes have you seen people make?

Joe Lovett: Yeah, [01:09:05] it’s it’s definitely changed a lot over the years. It’s become [01:09:10] a lot more corporate, a lot more corporate. And I don’t always necessarily [01:09:15] think that’s the for the better. You don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoy it.

Joe Lovett: No. But people [01:09:20] don’t have the depth of depth of relationships with their customers that perhaps that they once did. [01:09:25] And I won’t mention any names. Um, [01:09:30] but there was a great company and everybody there was [01:09:35] a card, right? Like, you knew that if you were with them, you were going to have a great time. And [01:09:40] they were like that with their customers. They would take them out, wine them, dine them [01:09:45] and drunk the odd, you know, like un-pc joke and things. [01:09:50] And, and they did really, really well at the time. Really, really [01:09:55] well. They were kind of renowned.

Payman Langroudi: Like they corporatized. Yeah. They corporatized.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. [01:10:00] And now and it’s interesting like if you look, you know, one [01:10:05] of the final people from that era has just left and the interesting people are talking about are, you know, it’s the last bastion [01:10:10] of, of that particular company. And it’s met with [01:10:15] a little bit of, uh, there were good times. We had a good [01:10:20] laugh. I’m sure there’s reason and rationale for, you know, you can’t drink, you can’t [01:10:25] get dirt, you know, tell crude jokes and things like that. But I think [01:10:30] there is still an element of corporate.

Payman Langroudi: Corporate culture tends to be risk averse, for sure, and [01:10:35] sometimes risk averse first and foremost. Um, and whereas these come [01:10:40] these great companies, they don’t come they don’t they don’t get created by being risk averse. Right. They’re quite the [01:10:45] opposite. They are risk takers.

Joe Lovett: I think the company, if I, if I was [01:10:50] going to set up my own or join another company, I like the scrappers. [01:10:55] Yeah, I like the people, you know, like like you. You’re [01:11:00] always there. You’re always at the event. You’re always, you know, it could be 9:00, 10:00 at night, [01:11:05] but you’re at the bar, you’re talking to people, you’re building relationships. You’re understanding what their problems, their needs are. [01:11:10] I think with some of the big corporates, they move away from that. It’s like, right, it’s [01:11:15] 5:00, let’s go home. Yeah. You know, the show is finished. Time to pack up. Let’s [01:11:20] go. I know most of my my strongest [01:11:25] relationships are the ones that have [01:11:30] the most amount of fun with the ones that I can relate to them, the ones that I know about [01:11:35] their families, I know about their kids, and I and I, and I think sometimes people [01:11:40] get too far removed from that.

Payman Langroudi: So you don’t like the buttoned up corporate thing?

Joe Lovett: I [01:11:45] can’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: I get it.

Joe Lovett: I went to a funeral the other week.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God.

Joe Lovett: It was quite funny, [01:11:50] actually. I was the only white guy. There was a black funeral, and [01:11:55] I was properly suited and booted. I felt so uncomfortable. I hate wearing [01:12:00] a suit these days. I absolutely loathe it. Anyway, my friend turned up and I said, look, please take [01:12:05] me to your mum and dad. I just want to pass on my condolences. And then I go, I’ll get back. I’ve got a meeting. And [01:12:10] we were walking through the room and everything like that, and he’s like, oh, this is my guy Joe and everything. And [01:12:15] I’m like, oh, come on, dude, I got to get out of here. Anyway, there’s a guy there and [01:12:20] he’s got a paper plate full of food and he’s eating chicken, right? And he finishes his [01:12:25] bit of chicken, throws it on the paint, and he passes it to me and he goes, take care of that [01:12:30] for me, will you, man?

Payman Langroudi: Like you’re the waiter. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: So I’m already feeling uncomfortable enough as [01:12:35] it is in my suit, you know? So I’ve gone. Okay. No problem. The minute [01:12:40] I’ve done that, they’ve all cracked up. You stupid idiot. Like, what are you doing? I was like, oh, no, I’ve [01:12:45] been completely stitched up. But yeah. No, I if and the minute I have to put [01:12:50] a suit on, I. Yeah, I just feel uncomfortable.

Payman Langroudi: These days, these days to wear a suit [01:12:55] all the time I remember. Yeah. Yeah. It’s one of those things once you stop, you just can’t go back to. [01:13:00] Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Joe Lovett: I live in bees, man. It’s embarrassing.

Payman Langroudi: But other lessons you’ve learned from [01:13:05] companies.

Joe Lovett: From companies?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Anything. [01:13:10] Have you seen anything that felt like it was even better than [01:13:15] than FMC? Has a company. The culture, the way the people [01:13:20] were motivated or was at the peak of what you’ve seen.

Joe Lovett: It’s [01:13:25] difficult because you’re not in it. It’s [01:13:30] yeah, I’m not in it. I’m not seeing these people on a day to day. We were [01:13:35] the epitome of work hard. Play hard.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Lovett: I [01:13:40] don’t see anybody that is doing [01:13:45] it to that levels. We we probably. Here’s [01:13:50] me comparing myself to David Brent earlier. And I’m about to use a use [01:13:55] a David Brent type line. But we’ll probably play too hard from at times. [01:14:00] You know, there were things that went on that you would look at now and go, Jesus Christ, [01:14:05] like, if that was captured and put on Instagram, [01:14:10] you know, there’d be like group firings. So [01:14:15] it’s difficult to say. I don’t. I don’t [01:14:20] see that culture anymore, but not necessarily a bad thing.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made [01:14:25] in your career?

Joe Lovett: Do you know what? Funnily [01:14:30] enough, you were involved.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, excellent.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. And I’m not just [01:14:35] saying this. So we talked a bit about Ken earlier. And [01:14:40] for those people that don’t know Ken, he was the founder and owner of FMC. [01:14:45] The F he was the F in Finlayson Media communications. [01:14:50] Anyway he started the company, sold it, bought it back, sold it [01:14:55] again. Bought it back. Shrewd, right. But when I [01:15:00] first started. He was in one of his times where [01:15:05] he wasn’t the owner of the company. And [01:15:10] we have a thing called schedule period at FMC. So [01:15:15] from September to December, people are working on their budgets for next year. What they’re going to do in terms [01:15:20] of their media plan and spend, say goodbye to your families, go out there and [01:15:25] sell, sell, sell, you know, length and breadth of the country, get to every single Dental company [01:15:30] and try and win business. Ken [01:15:35] then started a rival publication outside [01:15:40] of FMC Pete. Pete, is that.

Payman Langroudi: When you joined?

Joe Lovett: I was there beforehand, [01:15:45] so I was there a couple of years beforehand. And Julian and still to this day, I don’t [01:15:50] know if it was a white lie in order to light a fire under me, he [01:15:55] said, because a number of people went from FMC and joined PD. Right? [01:16:00] And he said the reason he never took you is because he doesn’t [01:16:05] think you’re up to it, right?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, that hurt. That must have hurt.

Joe Lovett: Ah, it [01:16:10] didn’t so much hurt, but it angered me and I was fuming. Right. [01:16:15] And it really lit a fire underneath me. And I really effective. Maybe from Julian, [01:16:20] right? I was driving up to 5:00 in the morning, 4 or 5 meetings a day, and I [01:16:25] was looking at the visitor books because it wasn’t these electronic logins. Then the visitor books, you had to sign [01:16:30] in, and I’d see I’d get them two days before I’d go, and [01:16:35] then two days before, three days before Tim. Tim Maloney. I’m like, damn it, they beat [01:16:40] me to it again. Are we driving? I’d get there and be like, yes, I’m here first. So because you’d see the log [01:16:45] book. Anyway, we were at an enlightened party, right? Which one? [01:16:50]

Payman Langroudi: Which town?

Joe Lovett: I can’t remember what year it was in London. Right. And I’d had a few to [01:16:55] drink. And I’m young, ignorant, obnoxious. And Ken [01:17:00] approaches me. And bear in mind, I. The reason I had an issue with Ken is because I’d never worked with him, and I felt that [01:17:05] he’d been saying these things about me. Anyway, he came up to me at this enlightened party and was like, Joe, [01:17:10] great to see you. I hear all sorts of good things. I hear you’re working really hard and doing a good job. And [01:17:15] I was a bit tipsy, young, full of vigour, you know, [01:17:20] ignorant kid, ignorant kid. I’m like, don’t you be talking [01:17:25] to me. You’ve got no idea about what I’m doing. You leave me alone. [01:17:30] You do your own thing. Oh, properly kicked off, I was like, [01:17:35] you know, pleading innocent. I never said those things. I never said those things. Um, [01:17:40] you know, it’s probably some choice language, right? Next [01:17:45] week, he bought PPD, comes through into [01:17:50] our office. Never seen anything like it. I mean, it was [01:17:55] it was a it was a tome. It wasn’t a publication. It was huge. Stuart Thompson [01:18:00] from um, uh, one of the rival publications at the time made the joke that when it [01:18:05] came through his letterbox, it killed his dog because it landed on his head. It was that heavy. And [01:18:10] I’m like, oh God, these guys have absolutely, like, kicked our ass. And [01:18:15] I’m like, ah, the enemy, you know, get pulled upstairs. This [01:18:20] is literally a week after I’ve kicked off. Guys, we’ve got some good news. All right. [01:18:25] You don’t have to worry anymore. Ken’s buying back the company. I was like.

[TRANSITION]: Oh, shit. [01:18:30]

Joe Lovett: Here’s me. I’m drunkenly kicked off with the guy the week before. And [01:18:35] the lesson I learned was right at the time, I [01:18:40] was playing checkers. Everybody else was playing chess, right? [01:18:45] There’s so much more going on the background. Sometimes you only see your [01:18:50] picture. You don’t see the full picture. That was a real big lesson for me that day. A real [01:18:55] big lesson. But off the back of a mistake. So yeah. Yeah. Big mistake.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:19:00] was your lowest day?

Joe Lovett: Personally [01:19:05] or professionally.

Payman Langroudi: Whichever [01:19:10] you want to talk about.

[TRANSITION]: Um. [01:19:15]

Joe Lovett: Yeah. [01:19:20] I mean, it would have been my time with, uh, [01:19:25] Global Dental collective and that coming to an end. Yeah, that [01:19:30] was, uh, really disappointing. Really disappointing because there had been a lot of, uh, [01:19:35] love and energy gone into that. So [01:19:40] to to walk away from that. Yeah. [01:19:45] It was it hurt.

Payman Langroudi: I bet because I, I enjoyed [01:19:50] you there.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, it was fun.

Payman Langroudi: I enjoyed having you there. [01:19:55]

Joe Lovett: It was, it was it was fun. And now when I look back on [01:20:00] it, um, I choose to look at the positives of it all, because, [01:20:05] Again. It was good to be part of something great. Um, [01:20:10] expanded my network, learned a lot from it, you know, and then also [01:20:15] was, uh, a stepping stone to being able to do fast tracking your future. So [01:20:20] I choose to look back at it positively.

Payman Langroudi: You got it. I mean, [01:20:25] look, life is full of problems like that, right? And and, you know, getting [01:20:30] the best out of it. Often. Often often. I was I was trying to talk to my son about this, like, [01:20:35] you know, I didn’t go to London to study dentistry, even [01:20:40] though I really wanted to. But then in Cardiff, where I did go, yeah, I met [01:20:45] my wife, I met Sanjay, and there would be no there would be no son of mine. There [01:20:50] would be no enlighten. Yeah. If I had gone to London like that. It’s [01:20:55] those sort of moments where I thought my whole world was over.

Joe Lovett: Yeah. At [01:21:00] that point, I would say for me, there was a [01:21:05] couple of vindicating moments off the back of, you know, being able to do fast [01:21:10] tracking of future was to, uh, get a, [01:21:15] uh, a message from Lorraine’s daughter, [01:21:20] you know, because the donation went to Saint Francis Hospital. That [01:21:25] really was a poignant moment then to get a letter from the [01:21:30] charity, you know, and to see how proud my [01:21:35] parents were, that felt like, okay, it’s so, so [01:21:40] corny, but things happen for a reason. These things have happened in order [01:21:45] to be able to do this, and we will do it again next year and we will, God [01:21:50] willing, raise double the amount of money for Operation Smiles. So I just think [01:21:55] it’s taking those negatives and trying to flip them on their head and, [01:22:00] and and build something even more positive.

Payman Langroudi: Things happen for a reason, God willing. [01:22:05] Are you? Um. Fatalistic. Are you religious?

Joe Lovett: No.

Payman Langroudi: Neither. [01:22:10]

Joe Lovett: No, I and I’m not not religious. I’m [01:22:15] the epitome of a lapsed Catholic. You know, we do our communion [01:22:20] and then we do our confirmation. The irony with the confirmation is it’s [01:22:25] supposed to be welcoming you into the church community. It’s 95% [01:22:30] for most Catholics. The last time they go to church. So very much a lapsed Catholic. My mum, [01:22:35] my mum and dad still go, but my brothers and sisters?

Payman Langroudi: No, I went to Catholic school. [01:22:40]

Joe Lovett: Did you? How did you find it?

Payman Langroudi: For 3 or 4 years? A very good school and [01:22:45] very disciplined because, I mean, I don’t know if being Catholic school made it that way.

Joe Lovett: Do you have Catholic guilt? [01:22:50] No. Okay, but I remember. Lucky you man.

Payman Langroudi: Hail Marys, I remember. [01:22:55] Okay. Ash Wednesday.

Joe Lovett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s so funny [01:23:00] because they would, they would, they would tell you, like they would put into your head. What is this? And [01:23:05] then the whole class would go gift from God. What is that? Yeah. And I remember [01:23:10] knowing all the answers to those, to those things.

Joe Lovett: When you do this eternal damnation. [01:23:15] You’re like, oh, what.

Payman Langroudi: Was that bit between heaven and hell? Purgatory. Purgatory?

Joe Lovett: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I used to [01:23:20] find purgatory. Really interesting idea.

Joe Lovett: I used to call it Coventry as a kid. But. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: But what about the fatalistic. I mean, do you believe things happen for a reason?

Joe Lovett: The [01:23:30] older I get. Yeah. I’m not a spiritual person by any means, but I [01:23:35] believe that. Listen, if I if I try and do the right thing, and if [01:23:40] I try and keep it positive and I stick to my principles, more often than not, [01:23:45] things work out for the better. Yeah, of course you get the odd banana skin, [01:23:50] but that’s just that’s just life, right? You have challenges thrown at you. And [01:23:55] I think, like I say, if I remain positive, I keep that positive mindset [01:24:00] and I try and surround myself by good people. Then [01:24:05] the the trajectory is up. Where do you.

Payman Langroudi: Reckon you’ll be? Or what [01:24:10] would be an ideal sort of outlook for ten years time? Joe? [01:24:15]

Joe Lovett: Um. How old are you? I’m [01:24:20] 40, I turn 40. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Welcome to colonoscopy. [01:24:25]

Joe Lovett: Cake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had my 40th party, and it was quite funny, actually, [01:24:30] because it was brilliant, because I was able to get everybody from all walks of, [01:24:35] uh, all parts of my life. So, like my football team, they’re my old school friends, my gym friends. But [01:24:40] by far the most interesting were the Dental crowd. And [01:24:45] it’s quite funny because my friends were looking at these guys, you know, like Gin and Kirsch and John Nicholas, who [01:24:50] were like the antithesis of that, you know, pale male and stale dentist that they’re [01:24:55] used to coming and they’re like, who the hell are these guys? Like, these guys are dentists. Like, you’re joking. [01:25:00] You know, like, when did they become sexy and cool? So that was. Yeah. That was a great evening. Um, [01:25:05] what’s the next ten years?

Payman Langroudi: 50 year old? Yeah, 50 year old Joe.

Joe Lovett: Uh, [01:25:10] do you know what? If I’m doing the same thing, right? Uh, with a nice [01:25:15] clutch of clients, I still am able to add value. If I’m [01:25:20] able to put on a couple of events that people still really enjoy and get a lot [01:25:25] out of. I’ve got a couple of other projects that I’m developing, uh, [01:25:30] which, you know, may go well or may not go well, but, you know, idealistically, [01:25:35] in ten years time, if they’re off the ground and running. Yeah. I mean, [01:25:40] like, uh, it’s a blessing. What I do and what I’m [01:25:45] able to do. Look, like.

Payman Langroudi: You’re enjoying your.

Joe Lovett: Life. I, I really, really do. You really, really [01:25:50] do.

Payman Langroudi: You look like you’re enjoying your life back then as well, when you were at FMC. Because you were. Yeah.

Joe Lovett: But now. [01:25:55]

Payman Langroudi: Now there’s a there’s something about you. There’s a smile on your face that’s even broader. [01:26:00] Which is which is which is lovely to see because generally, as you get older, that sort of dulls down a little bit. No, [01:26:05] not not not not in your case. We’ve come to the end.

Joe Lovett: Dude, [01:26:10] it’s been a lot of fun. It has. I genuinely was really looking forward to this one. I wanted to come on Dental [01:26:15] Leaders for a long time. You and I have known each other.

Payman Langroudi: Why did you call me?

Joe Lovett: You’re not the.

Payman Langroudi: Type. You’re not [01:26:20] the.

Joe Lovett: Type to do that. To be asked rather than ask, you know. But you know, you and I have been good friends for the best [01:26:25] part of 20 years, in fact, actually, one final thing I know, and it was. And you taught [01:26:30] me another lesson, um, when we did that deal. So [01:26:35] circling back to what we were talking about at the beginning for the World Aesthetic Congress, one of the [01:26:40] parts of that deal was you used to sponsor the catering staff to wear [01:26:45] t shirts. Yeah. And, um, I remember I [01:26:50] took the t shirts home. I was living at home at the time. My mum washed them and ironed them. And then I gave [01:26:55] them back to you. And I remember you phoned me up and you were very like. It was really great to get that gratitude. [01:27:00] And I remember exactly the words you said above and beyond the call [01:27:05] of duty, dude. And for me, I think there’s a lesson in that. It was like, oh, I [01:27:10] learned a bit. Like, if you can put that little cherry on top of the cake, for sure. That kind of differentiates people. Remember [01:27:15] that. People remember it.

Payman Langroudi: People remember that. Very true man.

Joe Lovett: Well, I remember I’m not going to let you forget it, but [01:27:20] yeah. Thank you so much for your time. It’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: Finish. We’ll finish with our usual usual question. Fantasy [01:27:25] dinner party.

Joe Lovett: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, dead or alive.

Joe Lovett: You [01:27:30] know, like. What’s the word [01:27:35] I don’t really like, uh, celebrate celebrity. I’m [01:27:40] not really that fussed about it. I’m not bothered about icons. I always think when people answer this question like, oh, yeah, I’d like to go to [01:27:45] a dinner party with Genghis Khan. Like, what the hell am I going to talk to Genghis Khan about? Like, oh, [01:27:50] what about those guys over there in the Ming dynasty? What do you think they’re like, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:27:55] who are you having?

Joe Lovett: I’m having. This is going to sound corny as hell, right? [01:28:00] I’m having my partner twice, and I. You know. [01:28:05]

[TRANSITION]: It’s so.

Joe Lovett: Cheesy and.

Payman Langroudi: Corny. No. I’m not. I’m not gonna lie. I’m not lying that she can come as well. You [01:28:10] need three others. I’m not allowing that. Why would you have your partner at one time where you’re not [01:28:15] going to have dinner with your partner? That’s the whole point of the question.

Joe Lovett: But I want her there. She’s absolutely hilarious. [01:28:20]

Payman Langroudi: Okay, okay. Yeah, I like that.

Joe Lovett: She’s your partner.

Payman Langroudi: Hi, doctor. Thais. Well done. [01:28:25]

Joe Lovett: Right. I know, I know, people are just going to [01:28:30] be retching now. Oh, that’s cool, that’s cool, that’s cool. But I’m so chill. [01:28:35] I find her hilarious. She’s good fun. She’s amazing. She’s great energy. She [01:28:40] always uplifted the room, but she always says to me, I’m not funny in English. I’m [01:28:45] funny in my native language, Spanish. And I’m like, no, I find it [01:28:50] funny. Anyway, we had, um, friends from Spain come stay some friends of mine. [01:28:55] And it’s my my friend and his wife and his two daughters. Right. And there’s [01:29:00] an she’s got an 18 year old and for want of a better phrase, the 18 year old is a bit of a cow, [01:29:05] right? She’s brilliant to us, but to our mum and dad, she’s very much a [01:29:10] teenager and she dictates the entire mood of the family. Right. Don’t, don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Send this port [01:29:15] to to.

Joe Lovett: Her. No no no no no no no no no. It’s cool, it’s cool. Like listen I would say this to them, you [01:29:20] know. No, no, I’m not telling tales out of school. All she wanted to do was come to Camden Market, [01:29:25] weirdly enough, and Notting Hill Market. But they came in the middle of that storm. Oh, yeah. [01:29:30] And honestly, it was hell out there, right? And then they cancelled the football. [01:29:35] They cancelled the Liverpool Everton match. Right. And I’m saying to these guys, look, the [01:29:40] only thing that stops us Brits from killing one another is the football, right, right. [01:29:45] And when they cancel the football, you do not want to be heading out into that. My friends. Having a full on panic attack. [01:29:50] She’s about to have a strop, right. Try to work that morning. She came back and [01:29:55] just totally took over. And she’s speaking in Spanish. Yeah. [01:30:00] And I can I pick her up? She’s, you know, calling me Mojito [01:30:05] and Gordo, you know, like, stupid little fat boy and stuff. So I’m picking up on this, but they’re in hysterics [01:30:10] and love it. She saved the day. They’re dancing to Latin music, and she was absolutely [01:30:15] brilliant. And she’s like that all the time, I guarantee you. Right. The only reason when we do these events, [01:30:20] people come along. It’s predominantly because of her, because she’s just such great energy. She’s amazing. [01:30:25] Yeah. Um, I want Julian English there. Really? Yeah. [01:30:30] He’s a dude, man. Like, let me tell you about Julian, right? So when I [01:30:35] was at FMC, we used to, like I said, we would get up early in the morning, [01:30:40] we would drive up to, let’s say we went to practice plan in North Wales and a big component [01:30:45] of what we would do when we would sell these, uh, advertising plans was [01:30:50] we’d intersperse it with editorial and there’d be some sort of agreement there that was blended, [01:30:55] right.

Joe Lovett: And we’d get up there in scheduled period and we’d be talking about the plan for [01:31:00] next year, and they go, we haven’t had these articles [01:31:05] and these months they haven’t turned up to this press launch. Right. You know, they [01:31:10] you know, there wasn’t this video done. I mean, like, honestly, I’d [01:31:15] be absolutely raging. You know, I’d be like, you worked hard all year and everything like that. And [01:31:20] I would be driving down the M6, the M1, fuming. As soon as I get in, I’m gonna swing [01:31:25] for that dude. I’m gonna give him a piece of my mind. I’m gonna throttle it. I’m gonna get him around the throat. I’m telling you [01:31:30] now, I’m going to get him around the throat, and enough is enough. He let me down. I’m working my chops [01:31:35] off him walking. The guy would be like, have his shirt off, [01:31:40] you know, trousers unbuttoned. And he’d be like, good day, old boy. And honestly, you [01:31:45] just melt. You do not know anybody with that With that level [01:31:50] of charm. He’s just such. He’s like, I think part of it is the way he looks. He’s this big, [01:31:55] like, lovable teddy bear. But yeah, how he would get away with it, I love it. Yeah, yeah. [01:32:00] And then. And then the the third and final one again I’m copping [01:32:05] out here. But it would be Emmett. Yeah. If we’re having a meal. He’s [01:32:10] fun. He’s I don’t know. He’s he’s not like me.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he’s a [01:32:15] cool dude.

Joe Lovett: He’s like un-pc in a time in which, you [01:32:20] know. Uh, but he’s got Heart of Gold. He’s got a heart of gold. [01:32:25] He’s kind of a nerd as well. Like, he’s into some interesting things. He’s just. I think [01:32:30] having those three there, we’re having a good time.

Payman Langroudi: Different to the usual Elon Musk, Gandhi [01:32:35] and, uh, Jesus Christ.

Joe Lovett: What am I going to talk [01:32:40] to LeBron James about, man? Or like, you know, I’m a Spurs fan. I want to sit there with Harry [01:32:45] Kane. Like I’m having fun. You know, like I don’t want to continue having fun.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:32:50] dedicate that one to Thais. Well done, Thais. Well done. Well done, well done for getting into that dinner party.

Joe Lovett: People. [01:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: What a.

Joe Lovett: Boring.

Payman Langroudi: Bastard. It’s been a massive pleasure.

Joe Lovett: Thank you so much [01:33:00] for having me.

Payman Langroudi: So much for coming.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:33:05] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:33:10] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [01:33:15] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you [01:33:20] got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:33:25] for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guests has had to say, because [01:33:30] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:33:35] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value [01:33:40] out of it too. Thank you so so so much for listening.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:33:45]

After building a successful hospitality empire in London, including venues like Rum Kitchen and Island Poké, Alex Potter found himself feeling empty—despite external success. 

A profound spiritual awakening led him to leave his business empire and divorce, embarking on a path of self-discovery through breathwork, plant medicine, and coaching. 

Now, through his company Kaizn, he helps leaders reconnect with their authentic selves through innovative retreats and coaching programmes that blend ancient wisdom with modern practices.

 

In This Episode

00:00:40 – Early life and acting career
00:05:35 – First entrepreneurial ventures in nightlife
00:23:00 – Building the hospitality empire
00:31:25 – Spiritual awakening through breathwork
00:39:35 – Transitioning away from business success
00:54:15 – Understanding Internal Family Systems
01:10:15 – Rites of passage
01:21:35 – The Kaizn approach to transformation
01:24:25 – Holistic healing versus traditional therapy
01:27:55 – Connecting with the inner child

 

About Alex Potter

A London native and former actor turned hospitality entrepreneur, Alex Potter built and ran multiple successful venues, including Rum Kitchen, Island Poké, and Ping. 

After experiencing burnout and a spiritual awakening, he trained extensively in coaching, breathwork, and plant medicine. 

Today, he runs Kaizn, an interdisciplinary coaching company specialising in transformative experiences and retreats.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hey [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome back to another episode of Mind Movers today. I am [00:00:30] so excited and privileged to have my life coach with me. I feel like I’m a bit weird saying that, because [00:00:35] there’s definitely different thoughts that come to mind when people think of coaches. Um, [00:00:40] but this is Alex, and I’ve known Alex since I was about 19 years old, so we went to Leeds University together. [00:00:45] And he is a transformative coach and facilitator specialising [00:00:50] in self-leadership, relational dynamics and rites of passage. I [00:00:55] approached Alex because when I remember him at university, he was at the forefront [00:01:00] of nightlife. He was running events. He was the person [00:01:05] that you go to if you wanted to go to the best parties. And Alex definitely had that [00:01:10] entrepreneurship. That was admirable. But what really drew me to Alex is that I understood [00:01:15] that over the years, despite living that perfect, picture perfect life that you see online, [00:01:20] he was dealing with his own traumas and had undergone a divorce, [00:01:25] left his career completely in the hospitality business [00:01:30] and gone, had gone on to do things that were helping people and created Camp [00:01:35] Kaizen, which is an incredible space, which we’ll talk about later. And [00:01:40] also through his practice, including somatic breathwork parts work, body [00:01:45] mind integration. Alex helps his clients understand themselves, their relationships, their challenges, [00:01:50] and their beings. So for me, are having undergone a very challenging year in my own life. [00:01:55] I’d say that Alex definitely helped me overcome a lot, and that’s why I wanted to share his knowledge [00:02:00] and have a conversation with him today. So welcome, Alex.

Alex Potter: Well, it’s a pleasure to be here [00:02:05] with you both. And yeah, really looking forward to having a chat delving in.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Amazing. [00:02:10] So I like to start from the beginning. Alex, I want you to tell us a little bit [00:02:15] about your childhood and how you ended up at Leeds University, and a little bit [00:02:20] about what the early Alex life was about.

Alex Potter: Sure. Um, yeah. So I’m a [00:02:25] I’m a London boy, born and bred. I went to I was very fortunate to go to a private [00:02:30] school in London called Latimer. Um, and, um, yeah. From there, um, [00:02:35] I was excited to embark on a, on a, on a trip up [00:02:40] north to Leeds University, where a lot of our friends were going. I’d actually been told, as you’ve [00:02:45] already alluded to, that it was a a pretty good place to go and have some fun whilst getting a degree. [00:02:50] My parents were very encouraging of me to. [00:02:55] Yeah, to Yet to think different. They’re a very creative family. My dad’s [00:03:00] an artist and photographer and property developer. And my [00:03:05] mum was in design before, you know, becoming a full time mum. [00:03:10] We were, I was, I was actually a young [00:03:15] actor. So I was actually picked up at school as a, [00:03:20] as a, as a, as a budding theatre student by an agent [00:03:25] and at sort of 14, 15, 16 started, um, [00:03:30] yeah, auditioning for roles. And, and I managed in my summer holidays [00:03:35] to start filming different shows and BBC series and [00:03:40] stuff that I watch now. And I’m like, wow, that’s cringe, but [00:03:45] but beautifully fun and had this sort of belief that actually, [00:03:50] okay, this might be something I wanted to pursue. Um, I was actually though, like, it’s [00:03:55] probably worth mentioning. Actually very small at school. So I was sort of [00:04:00] everyone was growing around puberty and then I wasn’t. And [00:04:05] so I kind of went from being, you know, this kid who was hanging out with all the cool kids to suddenly being [00:04:10] new kids were coming in, and I was the small kid, and I was like, ah, what’s kind of happened [00:04:15] here? You know? Um, and so I just there was a short period of time at school [00:04:20] where it was challenging.

Alex Potter: There was a bit of bullying, got pulled out of school for a bit whilst we [00:04:25] kind of looked at that, um, with my family. And I just [00:04:30] remember then like this, this sort of like [00:04:35] very, very sort of clear message which sort of came through, [00:04:40] which was that you will never have to worry if [00:04:45] you can build and be bigger and like, create [00:04:50] for yourself. And so there was this sort of like drive in me. I remember when, [00:04:55] you know, we went to we were with our fake IDs and we were 16 years old [00:05:00] and trying to get into a nightclub, and all my friends got in and I didn’t. And I [00:05:05] remember at that point going, okay, I’ve got to find the way to get into these places. [00:05:10] And so I kind of like that was when this sort of entrepreneurial spark [00:05:15] started, whilst I was also doing a little bit of acting. So [00:05:20] the acting was this sort of imaginal place where I could [00:05:25] sort of pretend to be other people or get validation [00:05:30] from the audience or in the theatre shows. And then the [00:05:35] sort of the twinned role of starting to run guest lists meant that [00:05:40] then I was not being questioned about my my age or what I looked like because I [00:05:45] was adding value.

Alex Potter: So I started to learn quite early on how to develop [00:05:50] these different sort of, I guess. Like what? What type of [00:05:55] clothes that I needed to wear to dress myself up. Um, and that sort [00:06:00] of coincided with, you know, the years leading into university. And [00:06:05] I remember having a conversation with my parents, which, you know, I said, look, I’ve got an [00:06:10] agent. Why don’t I just continue the acting gig? I’m already starting to make money. I was already [00:06:15] starting to do some guest list stuff. And, you know, in my mind, I was like, what’s the point in going [00:06:20] to university? There’s nothing that I was particularly drawn to. Um, [00:06:25] although I had a I’ve always had a deep interest in philosophy, and I was interested in, [00:06:30] in art naturally, because of my parents. Um, and then I was kind of, [00:06:35] like, drawn to the idea that it was very interesting to view the world through the lens [00:06:40] of art. Like through creative expression. So we had this discussion where I [00:06:45] think if I’d like really sort of, um, you know, Really [00:06:50] said. Look, acting is the be all, end all. This is what I want to do for life. [00:06:55] Um, I’m sure they would have encouraged me to do that. But instead they said, why don’t you go to university, spend [00:07:00] three years there, work out what you want to do, come down for your auditions. [00:07:05] Um, and, you know, go and meet people and have fun. So [00:07:10] that was the that was that was probably where we first met.

Rhona Eskander: So why [00:07:15] did the acting stop eventually? Because obviously, I think when I met you in Leeds, you weren’t acting anymore, were you? No. [00:07:20]

Alex Potter: So I was the first day I arrived at university, I bumped into [00:07:25] one of my best friend’s older brother. So, uh, best friend’s older brother’s [00:07:30] friends, who was, uh, a club promoter and had this this [00:07:35] night or these nights that they were running. And he walked into our halls of [00:07:40] residence and said he’d pay me and my best friend £1 for every person [00:07:45] that we could, you know, gather from our halls to come to his night [00:07:50] that was happening that night. And I think, you know, our guest list was called the Alex and Joe Guest [00:07:55] list or something like that. Like, very, very descriptive. Yeah. And [00:08:00] that, that kind of kicked it off. I remember that sort of freshers week that was when [00:08:05] we, you know, started drawing around 100 people a night [00:08:10] into different, different experiences and different nights that people wanted to go to. And [00:08:15] I very quickly started making, you know, pretty good money for someone [00:08:20] at university on us with a student loan and thought, well, actually [00:08:25] travelling down back down to London for my auditions can wait. I’ll, um, [00:08:30] I’ll just continue doing this. And, you know, that opened up the door for me after the first [00:08:35] year to decide that actually, I’d like to run my own nights. [00:08:40] So that was kind of the start of my first business when we were sort of 19 or 20 [00:08:45] years old and whatever. I thought a business was not really, really realising.

Rhona Eskander: No. I [00:08:50] remember like, you know, I’d always looked up for my own reasons. Entrepreneurship [00:08:55] was something that had always interested me. And I remember thinking specifically that you and the [00:09:00] people that are running these nights were displaying that, and there was always some kind of interest to me. [00:09:05] Do you think, though, I mean, nightlife is an interesting one because I think when people hear that [00:09:10] there’s always negative connotations linked with it, you know, drugs, alcohol, [00:09:15] you know, decadence, you know, there’s all these things that come to mind when you think [00:09:20] of that. Do you think I mean, initially, obviously what I hear is, is that your childhood and your experiences [00:09:25] of bullying and not feeling big enough, in a way wanted you to take up [00:09:30] space in another way. So you did that in different ways to feel validated and worthy, and that’s why you went [00:09:35] into that. But do you think that there was negativity? Do you think that it also did something [00:09:40] to your ego or your soul? In a way, if you look back or not so much?

Alex Potter: I think it’s [00:09:45] a good question, And I think there’s sort of multiple lenses that we could view [00:09:50] that. One is through the lens of the perception of who you think [00:09:55] you need to be in order to be validated or loved or receive love or. And so [00:10:00] when we find, um, coping mechanisms or short term solutions [00:10:05] or where that, you know, we can receive that and sort of [00:10:10] we tend to then, you know, you know, believe [00:10:15] that that might be the path to follow. So I think from one of the things that [00:10:20] that it offered me was I was always I was always drawn to wanting [00:10:25] to help people. And like, I liked bringing people together to have a [00:10:30] good time. Like, it was like I loved looking out over the club and seeing [00:10:35] people dancing and smiling and and having fun like that really lit me [00:10:40] up and that then that kind of grew the desire to create more, um, [00:10:45] interesting or experiences that integrated sound and light in different ways. [00:10:50] I think there was also like an incredible shadow that kind [00:10:55] of emerged as a result of starting to believe that you [00:11:00] were that I was in some way important or, um, [00:11:05] I.

Payman Langroudi: Was going to say, I bet you were popular.

Rhona Eskander: He was very popular. I was invited to everything.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:11:10] big was the biggest party? How many people?

Alex Potter: A couple of thousand. Oh, really? Yeah. So. But [00:11:15] at the.

Payman Langroudi: I bet you were popular.

Rhona Eskander: Well, he was really popular. I’m going to go on to what Alex did in London. [00:11:20] You’ll know some of the things he did in London, but we’ll go on to that. Go on.

Alex Potter: So I think just just to [00:11:25] it, you know, it was running guest lists. Right. So I think one of the things that that, that [00:11:30] you, that you learn is a couple of things that are really beneficial. One is that you get really good at [00:11:35] hearing. No. Right. So no, I don’t want to come to that. No. You know, like we were going around [00:11:40] and, you know, flyering and speaking to people and, you know, asking everybody [00:11:45] to come along and you’d be like, hey, how are you doing? So you start to learn how to communicate. You [00:11:50] know what? What how does someone relate? You get learn a lot of those sort of early skills around how you [00:11:55] communicate, um, and how you invite people somewhere and whether or not someone likes [00:12:00] what you’re saying. So you become quite chameleon oriented in a sense that you [00:12:05] become skilled at, um, your delivery. And I think [00:12:10] that’s something that served me well. And also just sort of the immediate feedback loops [00:12:15] of this, this is something that lands. This is something that doesn’t these were this is how you construct [00:12:20] an evening. This is what good looks like. This is what hospitality [00:12:25] really means. And but on the flip side, yeah, you’re dancing in [00:12:30] an industry that is fraught with excess drink, drugs. Um, [00:12:35] and, and is, you know, it to [00:12:40] a certain degree, Agree it can. For those [00:12:45] who you know you can be, it can be a form of escapism. And that [00:12:50] can lead, of course, to more destructive behavioural habits, especially if you’re trying to study [00:12:55] and get a degree. Right. Um, I was very, always very focussed [00:13:00] on, on, on doing everything I did really well. Like that was like what [00:13:05] was driven into me was like by my by my parents and my dad. Um, from a young age was like, [00:13:10] if I was going to do one thing, do it once properly, not twice, like, badly or half [00:13:15] heartedly.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s really nice. You know, we have this discussion all the time. We sit with [00:13:20] dentists and our parents told us to become dentists and the generations, [00:13:25] you know, you have the.

Rhona Eskander: The immigrant.

Payman Langroudi: Generation, immigrant generation and all that. I think it’s really [00:13:30] nice that that wasn’t even, you know, that sort of thing wasn’t even on your [00:13:35] radar, wasn’t, you know, preached on you by your parents and, and and [00:13:40] yet you can turn anything into a successful business. Yeah. You know, it’s a funny thing [00:13:45] because entrepreneurship and healthcare don’t really mix naturally.

Rhona Eskander: But I think [00:13:50] now that’s changed with the new generation because naturally it leads. I mean, Alex will tell you, I don’t think he can [00:13:55] name one other person that he was friends with that was a dentist or a doctor. I purposefully [00:14:00] liked to hang out with people that were in the creatives and like you said, you know, you loved philosophy. [00:14:05] So did I. For A-level, I did English, philosophy, chemistry and biology. That’s quite [00:14:10] rare to do such different subjects. And so when I chose to live with the [00:14:15] people that I did, who, you know, good friends with and no, none of them did the sciences or the [00:14:20] medicines. I was naturally very drawn. And I think it was that entrepreneurship. And that’s why I was [00:14:25] so desperate to marry that creativity and entrepreneurship with dentistry. And that’s why [00:14:30] I was one of the first people to take to social media.

Payman Langroudi: The what I’m saying is that that immigrant [00:14:35] mentality that says, you’re my parents. We had a revolution in Iran. We came here. [00:14:40] My parents become a professional. That’s the safest way. Same. Not the safest [00:14:45] way of helping the world. That’s the safest way of helping yourself. Yeah. Have a business [00:14:50] and you know you can. You’ll feed your family if you’re a professional. So behind it wasn’t [00:14:55] healthcare. And helping behind it was financial stability, 100%. Now, my [00:15:00] my basic point is that like entrepreneurship and healthcare don’t mix happily. [00:15:05] They don’t. Yeah they don’t. I don’t want my surgeon to be thinking, how much money can I make [00:15:10] out of this guy? Yeah, I don’t want that. But entrepreneurship and events, [00:15:15] nightlife, all the things that that Alex has done do mix perfectly. And yet [00:15:20] the immigrant doesn’t ever say to their kid what Alex’s parents said to to him, [00:15:25] like, go do something creative and do it really well. Yeah. You know, it’s just [00:15:30] one step too far for an immigrant to go to because of the risk of what? Not being a professional is going [00:15:35] to do to you, but.

Rhona Eskander: You actually have I have to just interject because my endodontist. [00:15:40] So that’s like a specialist within the within the field of dentistry. He used [00:15:45] to run the nights at like Movida and Tantra and stuff like that and do the list. And he used to DJ [00:15:50] as well with Jamie Jones and things, but he was still an endodontist, i.e. he was still a [00:15:55] specialist dentist, and it was almost like he was living these double lives and he would have never quit dentistry, [00:16:00] to become a full time DJ or to become a full time events person. And it’s almost [00:16:05] like, you know, even if you are drawn like, I loved acting like you said. So this year I was like, oh, I want to go look at [00:16:10] doing improv. But it was never an option in my family to leave dentistry, [00:16:15] to do acting or to. And that’s why within my field, I’m doing podcasting. [00:16:20] I do TV because that’s the way I can express myself within my field. Yeah, safely. [00:16:25]

Payman Langroudi: It’d be super cool, though, if your kid could write a screenplay, you know, like instead of [00:16:30] becoming a orthopaedic surgeon, you know, I mean, I think.

Rhona Eskander: It’s pretty cool to be an orthopaedic surgeon. I’m just saying, I think. [00:16:35]

Alex Potter: It sounds like a really interesting sort of like segue. Like what one is what I heard you [00:16:40] saying, which was more related to what is the sponsoring seed of a parent’s, [00:16:45] um, desire for their child? Yeah. Um, so what I’m hearing from you, [00:16:50] from an immigration perspective is that, you know, security and safety is of [00:16:55] utmost paramount, given that that was something that was taken away, you know, or [00:17:00] was happened. And it’s, you know, with my my wife Sarah, you know, she also moved from former [00:17:05] Yugoslavia when she was two years old to Canada. So I’m very familiar about [00:17:10] the, the, the what, what it means to have a safe and secure job that there [00:17:15] can be a career for a long time, that you can then be a provider for. And I think, [00:17:20] you know, it’s really interesting when we start to look at the intergenerational seeds [00:17:25] that have been planted in each of us as it relates to our attachment [00:17:30] styles and how we think about risk or, and let’s let’s also [00:17:35] think about risk as like entrepreneurship. Yeah. Um, and from [00:17:40] the other side is what I hear you talking a little bit about, which is this sort of following of your curiosity, [00:17:45] the opportunity to bridge your industry and entrepreneurship [00:17:50] and move the move the, um, move the business in [00:17:55] a way onto, um, onto social media and to have more influence and [00:18:00] to create more awareness around the people that are actually within the [00:18:05] industry rather than just this is a service and we don’t know anyone apart from they’re [00:18:10] in white gloves and, you know, behind, behind the glasses.

Payman Langroudi: Um, one thing.

Rhona Eskander: One [00:18:15] thing that I want to say, I think that’s going to be super helpful is the majority of dentists and doctors [00:18:20] are from immigrant families. And we joke and we say the minority is like white people. You have like, I probably [00:18:25] had like four white dentists in my year. Like literally everyone else was Middle Eastern Asian. Um, [00:18:30] you know, from backgrounds where they felt sort of pressured by their family, I think to a certain degree [00:18:35] there’s not a rebellious streak, but I think the new generation and maybe you’re seeing this with your own kids, [00:18:40] want to do things their own way, and that’s why you’re even seeing doctors and dentists take to TikTok and [00:18:45] Instagram in a way that was never done before, and perhaps pursue more of a financial [00:18:50] means through those channels. You know, I meet some younger dentists and like I make more from my partnerships [00:18:55] on TikTok than I do in practice, you know, and I think, you know, that is changing slightly. [00:19:00] But I think what’s interesting is that perhaps they don’t know, like you said, where it comes from. [00:19:05] You know, where their parents like, you have to go down this road. And one of the [00:19:10] perhaps good things about social media is that we can say, well, actually being authentically [00:19:15] yourself isn’t too much of a problem, and you can build a life and a career from that, [00:19:20] too. But I might be wrong because you hang out with the younger dentists more than me.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:19:25] look, social media is just a reality that’s going to media is a reality, right? Media is now [00:19:30] it’s got democratised that everyone has a voice, and that’s a nice thing, you know? There’s nothing [00:19:35] to say, but there’s plenty of business in healthcare, right? I mean, I had Anushka [00:19:40] sitting there, 43 practices, you know, there’s there’s some of the biggest [00:19:45] companies in the world are healthcare companies, drug companies. There’s plenty of business in healthcare. [00:19:50] Um, it just it just makes me sad that that that that advice. I mean, the [00:19:55] question you asked, what.

Rhona Eskander: Makes you sad.

Payman Langroudi: What the advice that all immigrants give are these simple three things that your kids [00:20:00] are allowed to do just for the safety thing, but also the question, the question that that [00:20:05] you were asking, um, Alex, about, you know, what is it [00:20:10] that about him that made him be that guy and the risks of night [00:20:15] life and and and the bad connotations of night life businesses. You know, there’s bad connotations [00:20:20] in every damn business. Yeah. If you want to. Look, I think.

Rhona Eskander: Night life even more so because [00:20:25] it is.

Payman Langroudi: In every business, if you want, if you choose to look at the the negative side of it, there are [00:20:30] There are negative things going on in all sorts of areas.

Alex Potter: Right? I think I can I can add to the [00:20:35] to this, to this, this inquiry from, from the sense that what [00:20:40] one piece that I think is really interesting is, um, [00:20:45] the, the you know, when I talked about the sponsoring seed that is kind of like landed [00:20:50] within the individual, um, that blossoms as we, as we grow, right, as are related [00:20:55] to, you know, what you think you should or need or must do based on what your parents [00:21:00] want for you and that, that, that, that, that, that seed, you know, and we’ve talked about [00:21:05] it as this sort of pebble that that’s the first pebble in the pond that [00:21:10] kind of drops, which is this sort of understanding that this sort of misunderstanding [00:21:15] of a of a young child, that I will behave the way I think you want me to [00:21:20] in order that you love me. And then that ripples out into schooling. I will behave the way [00:21:25] you think. I think you want me to in order to be a good boy at [00:21:30] school or a good girl at school. I will behave the way you think. I think you want me to. [00:21:35] In my relationships, in my work and this sort of pursuit [00:21:40] of, um. You mentioned authentic self, you know, or true self or [00:21:45] unique self, um, can sometimes be, um, convoluted [00:21:50] with the, um, belief structure that you’ve inherited [00:21:55] from your family about what it means to be, um, [00:22:00] you know, successful in their eyes.

Alex Potter: And we live in a society that [00:22:05] has, um, and certainly in the West has prioritised [00:22:10] the metric of success being a monetary value at the very top. [00:22:15] Right. That is the measure of whether or not you meet the standards [00:22:20] of our Western society comes by normally this scarce commodity of [00:22:25] money, however much or Whatever or influence or how much productivity [00:22:30] productivity you can offer. Now, if we’re placing that at the top of our personal [00:22:35] pyramid, and this is what kind of I think maybe you were starting to allude to was [00:22:40] no amount of and it was as we as I left university and [00:22:45] moved into, you know, a career in hospitality and started working in marketing [00:22:50] for nightclubs and restaurants and hotels. And I rose pretty quickly [00:22:55] into Morgans Hotel Group and was running nightclubs like Mahiki before that and [00:23:00] then bungalow eight and. Well, that’s that’s what I started. But so at 25 years [00:23:05] old, um, I decided with the young hubris of a of a man who’s obviously, [00:23:10] you know, done a huge amount of operational learnings. Of course, I haven’t, [00:23:15] um, in, in hospitality, decided to start my own place. And that place was, um, with [00:23:20] three other friends called Ping in Earls Court, which was this ping pong.

Rhona Eskander: Do you remember it?

Payman Langroudi: Pizza, I think. I [00:23:25] can’t believe I missed it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, it was really like.

Payman Langroudi: Big because bounce I went to a lot. Yeah. [00:23:30]

Alex Potter: Open at the same time as bounce. We were the West London and I basically pulled all of [00:23:35] my team at the time from, you know, sorry, Morgans Hotel Group, but like bungalow eight and [00:23:40] we had these incredible, you know, mixologists and barman. We had incredible pizza chefs and [00:23:45] this 7000 square foot place with DJs every night. And we had a barber in there so you could come [00:23:50] and get your hair cut. I mean, it was just this experiential thing. And I remember creating [00:23:55] that for the love of creating. That was the thing that got me. And I was so [00:24:00] thrilled with, with, with what we were doing. And we, you know, we had [00:24:05] these cool, you know, uh, bask baseball jackets that all the [00:24:10] team would wear and the merch and, and and that was when it started [00:24:15] to pop for us. And we also developed something at the time called Love Brunch, which was this daytime [00:24:20] party event that we ran from 12 till six.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I remember that.

Alex Potter: Um, which [00:24:25] then we grew into, you know, a nine year business that I ran with a couple of other partners. [00:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: Are you saying. Are you saying that you were telling yourself a story about growth and and domination [00:24:35] that was unhealthy in some way as well?

Alex Potter: At some. Well, what happened to me is after ten [00:24:40] years of doing or 8 or 9 years of doing this, when we built our holding company called [00:24:45] GLP hospitality, where we had by by at its peak, 14 different restaurants [00:24:50] and bars, a place called Rum Kitchen.

Rhona Eskander: Do you remember Rum Kitchen? Yeah. It was [00:24:55] like the place to be in in Notting Hill. Like, I remember it was like everyone wanted to be at Rum [00:25:00] Kitchen.

Alex Potter: And it was fun. And we had people. We had celebrities rolling through. David Beckham did his Christmas [00:25:05] party. We had Prince Harry there, you know, Harry styles, all those guys used to come and you [00:25:10] know, at that time, you know, that would drive more awareness for the business. The business [00:25:15] would get busier. We’d open a second one and then a third one, and then we took on private equity. [00:25:20] And those guys wanted us to grow quickly, and we were [00:25:25] then incubated the business island pokey that I used to know. The founder was a family [00:25:30] friend and he came and said, look, come and try this bowl of pokey in our [00:25:35] office in Soho. I said, you know, we said, this is amazing. Let’s package this up. We turned it [00:25:40] from, I think it was called the Hawaiian Fiasco at the time. And then we rebranded it because we had an in-house [00:25:45] design studio. We rebuilt it into something called Island. Pokey raised the capital [00:25:50] from a company called White Rabbit, who were an investment firm, and then set out to to [00:25:55] grow that. And by the time that I exited that, we were at eight sites. And now I think there are [00:26:00] 30. Um, and we also opened a place called Foley’s, and Foley’s was [00:26:05] we won a michelin bib for and then a place called Passo.

Alex Potter: Now, I think to bring all this back to the original [00:26:10] question was, I remember walking into the opening of Passo [00:26:15] and feeling like an imposter in my own business, and I had [00:26:20] pegged so much at this opening that it was going to make me feel whole. And [00:26:25] for whatever reason or not. And I can even feel like the emotions coming. Um, [00:26:30] that was when I really, like, had to look at myself in the mirror and going, like, you’re [00:26:35] trying to live someone else’s life. And what [00:26:40] I recognised then was that I [00:26:45] that nothing was ever going to be enough when I was looking [00:26:50] externally, outside of myself to fill the perceived [00:26:55] the void that was that, that I felt within. And it didn’t matter how much [00:27:00] money we made or whether or not we had money or didn’t have money. It didn’t [00:27:05] matter. You know how many restaurants we had or or how many reviews [00:27:10] that came in? Well, I got to a point where I basically [00:27:15] burnt out because we, we were running a company that 250, you [00:27:20] know, employees. And at the same time, my relationship with with my with my [00:27:25] ex, you know, was was we were, you know, we were having some [00:27:30] challenging times and as, as new newlyweds, um, and she [00:27:35] just, you know, was starting her own healing journey from a more, you know.

Alex Potter: A more challenging [00:27:40] childhood experience and experiences. And I remember [00:27:45] this moment walking my dog around the block, like, and just walking [00:27:50] the dog around and around the block, just going, I my life has to be mean [00:27:55] for more than this. There, there has to be more to my life than feeling the [00:28:00] way that I do at the moment, and that I think that’s what’s [00:28:05] part of this was coming. Because in a sense of the of of the pain that I was [00:28:10] feeling within and the, the, the, the speed at which we were building [00:28:15] and growing and running. And I, you know, when you sometimes look back at back at Whatsapps and you find conversations [00:28:20] that you’re having from eight years ago. And I was just looking at like, [00:28:25] how many, you know, moving parts we had and different investors and different, [00:28:30] you know, ventures. And we had, you know, a new pipeline of ten new businesses that were [00:28:35] going. But we were also, you know, we had companies that were, you know, Peter was paying Paul. And [00:28:40] so, you know, management structure was, you know, a little becoming a little bit shaky as we’d [00:28:45] started to grow because, you know, we’re 31 years old and, you know, we hadn’t we didn’t have [00:28:50] the support and we didn’t know how to ask for help.

Alex Potter: That’s like the real crutch [00:28:55] here was mental health in the way that we’re having this conversation now, wasn’t there? Wasn’t there [00:29:00] like I started seeking out secret seminars when I was 28 and started going [00:29:05] to different spiritual talks to, you know, make sense of what was going [00:29:10] on and how could I make sense of my relationship, and also like, why am I so triggered by this [00:29:15] person? Or, you know, why is my body responding in a certain way? And I just [00:29:20] remember the more destructive pathways there are to find ways [00:29:25] to self-soothe self soothe. Right. So that would be drink or um, or recreational drugs [00:29:30] or partying. So yeah, if you’ve got 14 sites and you’ve got you can drink and eat [00:29:35] for free in every one of those. It is super easy to distract yourself. Um, [00:29:40] but whatever happens, you still wake. I would still wake up with a pit in my stomach [00:29:45] that then I would busy myself to relieve. And after a while, that [00:29:50] got to a point where there was this sort of very clear moment where [00:29:55] I recognised that everything had to change.

Rhona Eskander: Did it happen? I mean, [00:30:00] obviously, we’ve talked about this at length, and this is one of the big reasons why I chose you as a coach. You know, [00:30:05] I said you walked the walk. So essentially on the outside you had everything, you know, the perfect [00:30:10] relationship, the perfect partner, the perfect business, etc., and everything was [00:30:15] building up. But I remember you telling me that one day you walked in. You just [00:30:20] don’t want to say. Threw it away. But you were like, something’s to change. And it was almost like in a day, everything [00:30:25] changed. So tell us about that.

Alex Potter: Yeah, it was weird. I just. And that just popped a memory where, [00:30:30] you know, I think it was the same same, same same sort of like month or two where, [00:30:35] um, you know, me and my partner, business partner, Johnny were, you know, we got [00:30:40] the sort of like, 1000 most influential people in London next to Nick Jones and all this, you [00:30:45] know, all these sort of heroes of ours. And I [00:30:50] just remember, um, yeah, [00:30:55] this, sort of this, this, this feeling that. This [00:31:00] was like a really important [00:31:05] moment for me to like everything that I thought that I knew and everything [00:31:10] that I thought would make me happy. And I just remember having this, like, slight burning question [00:31:15] that landed with me. It was like, what is success? What does it mean to feel [00:31:20] fulfilled? And the moment I asked that question, I went to an [00:31:25] like a friend’s experience or event that night, and I got introduced to a [00:31:30] friend who was just starting to date, um, [00:31:35] this chap called Stuart Salmon, who owns a company called pod. Now, he had just been sort of trained as a as a chef, teacher, [00:31:40] breath coach. Um, and, and he said, hey, I’m hosting, hosting this [00:31:45] event. Um, come along. It’s, you know, next week. And I remember [00:31:50] going to this experience and, and lying [00:31:55] down in this beautiful yoga studio, and there were yoga mats [00:32:00] and everything was laid out and beautiful music, and we started breathing. And, you know, I’d never even heard [00:32:05] about breathwork at that point. I’d tried meditation before. It never landed. I always thought [00:32:10] I was doing it wrong. You know, you’re sat there waiting to be enlightened, you know, [00:32:15] and just hoping that something was going to happen.

Alex Potter: I just think that’s the way that it’s the instruction has been given. [00:32:20] It hasn’t been necessarily landed in the West. Um, and I [00:32:25] went to this experience and I started breathing, and I just remember myself leaving my body. And [00:32:30] I left my body, and I entered this space where I was able to see [00:32:35] my life from, like, this bird’s eye view. And it was just so clear to me in that moment [00:32:40] that I was able to see my partners like life, her like, and her as a child [00:32:45] and recognise that you know, everything that like that, that we [00:32:50] were holding in resentment and judgement against each other as we were sort of navigating now, a divorce was [00:32:55] like just a huge amount of like love and compassion [00:33:00] and forgiveness and recognition that, wow, like, [00:33:05] you know, I’m we’re not tuned to the same level. I can’t hear what she’s [00:33:10] saying and she can’t hear what I’m saying. And that’s okay. And [00:33:15] we can we can work. We can work through that from that place. And [00:33:20] and at the same time, I was sort of had this sort of like clear moment [00:33:25] where I, you know, could see my life in, in, in [00:33:30] a different, in a different way where I looked happy and was, you know, just kind [00:33:35] of free and didn’t have the, the, the expectations or the [00:33:40] pressure. I felt like the man who was holding Atlas for like the majority of my [00:33:45] early 20s and the majority of my 20s and early 30s [00:33:50] and, and I remember speaking to, to Stu after and he said, look, there’s this, there’s this. [00:33:55] You should go and speak to my friend. He’s a coach. And I said, okay, cool. A coach sounds great.

Rhona Eskander: At [00:34:00] this point. Were you still working for the businesses or have you quit?

Alex Potter: No. So I was I was still in the business [00:34:05] and I was navigating what I was going to do. Um, [00:34:10] but we were just starting. I was just starting to kind of, like, [00:34:15] have that question with my partners about stepping down at a point when. Yeah, on [00:34:20] on the surface, we were absolutely booming, like everything was. [00:34:25] If we’d continued in that vein, you know, who knows what, you know, where [00:34:30] it could have.

Rhona Eskander: How did they feel about you presenting stepping [00:34:35] down?

Alex Potter: It was hard. Um, there was also there was also a couple of things, like the way [00:34:40] that our corporate structure was set up. You know, I was able to, um, [00:34:45] you know, I’d released the operational control anyway at that point from from [00:34:50] Rum Kitchen. So we had brought in a managing director. So all these kind of things [00:34:55] that we were kind of doing enabled me to make this move a little easier. Island pokey [00:35:00] was pretty set up then. James was running it. Um, an operational team were moving through, [00:35:05] and after the two years, they left our sort of incubator office. Um, [00:35:10] and we had Folies and Paso and, you know, the events [00:35:15] business and our, and our sort of marketing agency and graphic design agency. [00:35:20] I remember speaking with Johnny at the time, you know, and this was like I was separating from [00:35:25] him, who I’d worked with for ten years and separating from my wife in the same basically [00:35:30] the week. Um, and I just said, I can’t I can’t do this anymore. I just can’t. I, [00:35:35] I’m and I felt broken and I was just like, I can’t continue [00:35:40] operating in this way because it’s going to kill me. And that’s that’s [00:35:45] generally how I felt.

Payman Langroudi: But when you look back on that now, do you see [00:35:50] that as I mean, I’m sure it’s a combination of things you see it as. But do you see that as [00:35:55] you were going down the wrong line, or do you just see that as [00:36:00] your execution was shortsighted? You weren’t you weren’t looking after yourself as you [00:36:05] you could you could know, I’ve taken maybe a day off a week and [00:36:10] and solved that problem. Or do you actually think you were going down an incorrect path? [00:36:15]

Alex Potter: It wasn’t an incorrect path, right? It was that I was I had completed what [00:36:20] I had set out to achieve. Like, you know, I talked.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t just burnout, mental [00:36:25] mental pressure, burnout. It was it was just.

Alex Potter: I knew it was enough. I knew I knew that I knew [00:36:30] nothing more in this external world of of [00:36:35] of of creating for, um, for the, [00:36:40] you know, for success, for external validation, for financial Renumeration [00:36:45] was going to hold me. I knew at that time it was [00:36:50] it was this, this like inner soul calling back to alignment. And I was [00:36:55] and I and I started working with a coach and he just I remember this incredible question because it changed [00:37:00] my life. He said, you know, imagine yourself looking [00:37:05] back one year from now. So what are we, the I can’t [00:37:10] remember what the date is. Call it the 12th of December. 12th of December, whatever day this comes out, 12th of [00:37:15] December. Looking back one year from now. So 2012 December 2025. Looking [00:37:20] back one year from now, what must have happened for you to feel [00:37:25] thrilled at your progress? And it was. I just sat with [00:37:30] it and I remember that the the answers just came so clearly. [00:37:35] And I was like, it was so clear to me that relieving myself of [00:37:40] the responsibilities of running this company, the, the the pressure [00:37:45] of 365 days worth of revenue, stats rolling in every [00:37:50] night like that was what I before I went to bed. I’d wait for every single, every [00:37:55] single restaurant or bar or, you know, thing to come in red or black. Are we up or down [00:38:00] on last year?

Rhona Eskander: We have that in dentistry. Yeah for sure, for sure.

Alex Potter: That is how that is how that black [00:38:05] eyed sleep well. Red eyed sleep terribly. I would wake up in the morning, and the first thing that would be coming through would be [00:38:10] our reviews across. So we’d have a thing that would scrape all of our reviews from all of our restaurants, [00:38:15] from all the social media, everything like this. It would categorise them. You know, it didn’t matter if there was [00:38:20] 95 positive reviews, I would beeline in onto the negative [00:38:25] one and that would be where I’d start my day. I’d be like, what happened? How did this happen? And so I just [00:38:30] feel that I was I’d got to this point where the [00:38:35] the way I was approaching life, you know, was no longer [00:38:40] sustainable. That’s that’s what was happening. And I started working with a coach, [00:38:45] and the coach helped me breathe life into my, you [00:38:50] know, choices. And at that moment, I was able I loved the coaching [00:38:55] process so much that I, that I was like, I, I have to train in this. [00:39:00] Um, I don’t know why, but I just know that this [00:39:05] these lines of questions, the opportunity that someone gives you non-judgmentally [00:39:10] non prescriptively to self generate the answers from within was [00:39:15] mind blowing to me. And so [00:39:20] I trained that that started this journey of, of training and as a, as [00:39:25] a transformational coach. Um, and.

Rhona Eskander: So at this point you were not earning anything or did you, were [00:39:30] you paid out by your companies?

Alex Potter: No, I was I at that point, it was a this was moving out [00:39:35] and I had a little bit I was negotiating an exit, but I was also getting divorced. So I was [00:39:40] at this point where I was like, I scrambled like what money we had available. And I invested [00:39:45] in in the coaching I had, you know, I had no idea whether or not it would [00:39:50] really necessarily pay, pay out or how I. But I did have this belief that I [00:39:55] know that there are more people out there like me that I can offer this service [00:40:00] to.

Payman Langroudi: But the company not have a valuation.

Alex Potter: That the company.

Payman Langroudi: Had that you could exit.

Alex Potter: With. [00:40:05] Yeah. Company had a valuation and that. But Room kitchen at the time had [00:40:10] just taken on investment and we’d bought out other partners. So [00:40:15] I was already it was like, you’re waiting until whatever happens. So, [00:40:20] you know, we we kind of, you know, crossed our fingers and hope that would come good. We [00:40:25] were in a negotiation or I was in a negotiation to exit Island. And that took [00:40:30] about a year from starting that to, to to to doing that. [00:40:35] Um, and then Foley’s and and Paso at the time were [00:40:40] early businesses. So there was no, you know, you.

Payman Langroudi: Invested everything.

Alex Potter: You had [00:40:45] everything reinvested. So what I did is I gave my shares to my business partner. I said, look, I can’t do this. Have my [00:40:50] shares in those two restaurants, you know, you crack on. Um, and, [00:40:55] and, you know, that was just before Covid. So that’s a whole nother story about where we Where we [00:41:00] can go. Um, and and then I started, and I, and I moved.

Rhona Eskander: In with your parents. [00:41:05]

Alex Potter: I moved back in with my parents for for nine months. And it was this sort of, like, real, like coming [00:41:10] home. It was this real turning away. I’d also had a pretty, you know, big wedding, [00:41:15] you know, a year before that that, you know, tons of [00:41:20] friends come. And I just remember this moment of, of of everything changing. And I turned [00:41:25] back around from looking out and started looking in and [00:41:30] in training as a coach. I then was like, I want to train in more stuff. So [00:41:35] I was like, okay, breathwork, help me, I’m going to train as a as a breath worker. And I [00:41:40] pursued performance breathing and followed a guy called Laird Hamilton, who’s a big surfer and [00:41:45] trained in his breath work training, um, before breathwork, then helped me [00:41:50] unlock meditation. And so over the next 7 or 8 years, every [00:41:55] year I’ve added something that has been Being curious or help me to [00:42:00] better understand myself, better understand my relationships, better understand my, um, [00:42:05] my reason for being and how I can be of service, and [00:42:10] started to pull together different modalities, [00:42:15] interdisciplinary approaches to um, to, [00:42:20] you know, through my own exploration of self and that kind [00:42:25] of bosomed out into also studying a lot of ancient wisdom and indigenous [00:42:30] wisdom and working with plant medicine. Then I trained as a [00:42:35] psychedelic assisted, uh, practitioner for a year and worked with a lot of different [00:42:40] plant medicines to better understand how our connection can [00:42:45] reconnection to nature. Um, I have a.

Rhona Eskander: Question, though. Did you go through any [00:42:50] moments of real darkness during this time? So you turned your [00:42:55] back on the business? Your marriage came to an end. You moved back in with your parents. Or do [00:43:00] you think that somehow you. I don’t want to say distracted yourself, but you were on this [00:43:05] path where the calling was so strong that you didn’t. You didn’t feel the heaviness and [00:43:10] the pain and the tools that you were learning helped you through that period, because [00:43:15] most people would go into a dark hole for a period of time, whether you want to call that depression or, like you [00:43:20] said, you know, embark on some sort of self-soothing distraction mechanism.

Alex Potter: So [00:43:25] I think, like, I can speak to a couple of things there. Like, yeah, there was a, there was a [00:43:30] the funny enough, I think the dark time, the darkest [00:43:35] times were before I quit. That was the quitting [00:43:40] was relief, was the relief. And I think, like the [00:43:45] most important thing that we can have in this type of journey, on our own journey, is to recognise we’re [00:43:50] on a journey and that this is the life is the greatest adventure that [00:43:55] you forgot to invite yourself on. And there is a there is an opportunity [00:44:00] to be hopeful. Now how? That’s easy to say when you’re you know [00:44:05] you’re not in the dark. The basement. You know, where everything is caving in on you. What [00:44:10] became helpful for me was a daily practice. You [00:44:15] know, so how you know, I learned how to use my breath to return [00:44:20] to my own inner compass. I was, I [00:44:25] was I was very clear that in my mind that this wasn’t [00:44:30] something that I wasn’t going to give up on life like this was the this was this [00:44:35] was the threshold that I, it was calling me to cross in [00:44:40] order to, um, grow into or [00:44:45] allow, you know, or grow into or allow myself to, like, really, really express [00:44:50] myself as to who I truly am and what gifts I have to offer to [00:44:55] this world.

Payman Langroudi: What are you? What are you struggling with at the moment?

Alex Potter: I’m struggling with [00:45:00] the. I’m struggling with [00:45:05] the external worlds. [00:45:10] The way in which we’re viewing the world through the lens of social media and the 24 hour [00:45:15] news cycle, and how impactful that is [00:45:20] into so much of our so many of our selves sense of self, safety [00:45:25] and hope. I think sorry.

Rhona Eskander: I just want to add there [00:45:30] Payman that Alex actually doesn’t have social media. So the current business that he has is totally [00:45:35] built on word of mouth. And I actually heard it through one of my, um, [00:45:40] high profile clients. And I was like, I know Alex because she was like, I’ve been doing coaching. [00:45:45] And then I was I went to university with him, and then I kept seeing him around in [00:45:50] Soho House. And you.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t use social media Personally.

Alex Potter: No, I quit.

Rhona Eskander: No, the [00:45:55] company doesn’t have it.

Alex Potter: I quit the day. I quit everything.

Payman Langroudi: Personally as well as personally.

Alex Potter: Professionally, [00:46:00] everything. And look, I’m not here. I don’t believe technology. Technology is neither. It’s agnostic. [00:46:05] It’s not good or bad. It’s how it’s used, right? So if you’re using social media to [00:46:10] to or if. Speaking for myself, if I was using social media to validate how I was feeling or, [00:46:15] or to receive likes in order to basically help me feel better. It’s a short [00:46:20] lived dopamine release, right? Like it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s not, um, [00:46:25] long term fulfilling. Um, as a business kaizen, [00:46:30] which is our company and our interdisciplinary coaching company, where we bring together [00:46:35] different practitioners from psychologists to functional medicine doctors [00:46:40] to different coaches to medicine guides. What [00:46:45] what we recognised was that actually trying to tell people about our [00:46:50] business, which is, um, you know, a one format of [00:46:55] doing it via the lens of social media and claim based outcomes about, [00:47:00] you know, your seven steps to living your best life. Like for me personally, never [00:47:05] felt congruent with my own journey. Um, what has [00:47:10] felt congruent was allowing people’s experience working with [00:47:15] us to do the marketing for that ever we needed. So for [00:47:20] the last seven years, the company that we’ve built has relied entirely on [00:47:25] word of mouth marketing and some email marketing around the community [00:47:30] that we’ve built. That’s not to say we’ll never not use social [00:47:35] media, but I don’t think we’ll ever use it as a sales mechanic. And [00:47:40] we will we will use it when I personally and my business partner feel personally [00:47:45] like we have the The right [00:47:50] frequency of the message to share. And so when you ask me, what am I challenged [00:47:55] with at the moment, it is the sharing of the right information [00:48:00] at the right time for the right person to be able to hear it. [00:48:05]

Rhona Eskander: And that’s the problem because social media is so based on clickbait, right? We had this conversation [00:48:10] a couple of weeks ago. Like even some dentists get really triggered because they’ll see [00:48:15] other dentists, you know, make a claim that’s not that big a deal, [00:48:20] but turn it into this huge deal because it’s clickbait. Does that make sense? And [00:48:25] there is that problem that goes on. Like sometimes I also find myself having to do like polarising [00:48:30] content because I know it’s going to do better for my like, algorithm. And, [00:48:35] you know, if you.

Payman Langroudi: Have to use it in any particular way, I mean, that’s the [00:48:40] nice thing about it that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but if you want to do well on social media, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:48:45] mean, for instance, Alex is not saying he wants to do well on social media. He’s saying, but if you.

Rhona Eskander: Want to bring business, which [00:48:50] is my goal. Yeah. And if he does eventually want to bring business through social media, [00:48:55] you do have to pivot in that direction.

Payman Langroudi: Hear me out, hear me out. For instance, I used to obsess [00:49:00] on the download numbers of the podcast. The podcast. Really? I haven’t looked for [00:49:05] the last six months. Really? I’ve not looked. I don’t care anymore. Yeah. [00:49:10]

Alex Potter: And I reckon it’s higher.

Payman Langroudi: Probably, yeah. Probably. Not that I was making [00:49:15] any changes based on the numbers, because it’s not as easy.

Rhona Eskander: But also you’re not relying on the podcast [00:49:20] to bring you income. The podcast is something. But people that are people that rely [00:49:25] on social media to bring them brand partnerships or if they get paid per [00:49:30] download on YouTube.

Payman Langroudi: In any event, let’s imagine he wants to use social media as his main [00:49:35] marketing engine. You know, the nature of the way that he would use it [00:49:40] would be in line with Kaizen. And that wouldn’t be clickbait. [00:49:45] Clickbait would.

Alex Potter: And of course. So it’s like what is the what is the the use of the technology [00:49:50] and what is if you want to closed loop return, which always terrified [00:49:55] me a little bit because when I brought on private equity into our business, we used to we used [00:50:00] to create. And so in hospitality business we used to, you know, create incredible experiences. [00:50:05] We used to do events for rum kitchen, like at the carnival, you would do things that didn’t have a [00:50:10] clear closed loop marketing ROI. Yeah. But when we took on private [00:50:15] equity, these guys, you know, they wanted, you know, wanted to wanted to cut those things out, which was actually, you know, [00:50:20] the brand partnership stuff that you did. You can’t you didn’t have the tools then to necessarily close the loop. [00:50:25]

Payman Langroudi: You kind of regret bringing in private equity because a lot of dentists grapple with this.

Rhona Eskander: They [00:50:30] have maybe two practices.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. And then they’re thinking, should they be 30 practices.

Alex Potter: Massively, [00:50:35] you know.

Payman Langroudi: And so do you think you would have carried on more organically without it. [00:50:40]

Alex Potter: And it was the, you know, the at that time we were going through a, you [00:50:45] know, a casual dining boom, you know. So and you’ve got multiple partners and you’ve taken money from [00:50:50] friends and family, and you’re hopeful that you can return some of that money and the trust and [00:50:55] the and and the hope that they gave you. And in doing so, you have this, you know, [00:51:00] the world is presented in a way that you will become happy once you have more money, [00:51:05] and once you have a house and a second house, and you can send your kids to X, Y, and Z, or do [00:51:10] what however you know it is, or in some variation of that. And so I think like there’s [00:51:15] a great quote, which I’m sure you’ve heard before, but like comparison is the thief of joy, of course. And [00:51:20] the reason that I came off social media was because I recognised [00:51:25] that I was losing my sense of self, like I wasn’t able to create from that [00:51:30] place that I needed to, that I wanted to because I was looking at what [00:51:35] the next restauranteur was doing in L.A. and going, oh, I’ll tell you what, we should do a version [00:51:40] of that V like what is actually, like coming through me. What is asking [00:51:45] to be created? You know, actually, like there’s this you know, when Rick Rubin talks about [00:51:50] it, that there are, you know, there are ideas like in [00:51:55] the universal cosmic, you know, sort of, uh, sky above [00:52:00] us, let’s call it that.

Alex Potter: When we tune to that frequency, [00:52:05] we can receive, we can receive information. So meditation, breathwork, these [00:52:10] are opportunities for me to actually, like, align myself with what is [00:52:15] being either you know, what is what is within me that wants to be birthed or [00:52:20] what can I receive from from um, that is asking to be created. [00:52:25] And that’s really what I help people do now, which is [00:52:30] asking people very clearly like, you know, what [00:52:35] is your heart longing for? Because the head will tell you [00:52:40] a ton of other things, right? You know what I think when you hear yourself saying I should, I need, [00:52:45] I must. That is more. That is when we have subordinated to societal ideologies [00:52:50] about what we think we should be doing. Yeah, right. So you talked about depression before. [00:52:55] Depression. The best description that one of our psychologists, you know, you know, termed it, which I thought [00:53:00] was amazing or at least gave a gave a, gave a gave a good descriptor was, was the comparison [00:53:05] of your current reality to the fantasy of the life that you think you should be living? Love that. [00:53:10] Yeah. I was like, wow, okay. If if that [00:53:15] is the the the descriptor will. Social media is [00:53:20] a is a pretty good you know when used in that way. Well you [00:53:25] can trace back a lot of our own current societal problems, you know, to [00:53:30] the way in which we believe that we should need or must [00:53:35] act in order to be happy, successful, loved, or valued.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. I’ve got [00:53:40] a question for you. Do you think that since you embarked on your own [00:53:45] professional journey and where you are now, do you ever get depression? [00:53:50]

Alex Potter: I don’t label the the [00:53:55] you know, I don’t pathologize my experiences [00:54:00] as depression or as anxiety. The way that I have [00:54:05] come to understand myself is through different lenses of understanding [00:54:10] how my psyche works. So one in particular that I find very helpful, that I’m also trained in is [00:54:15] internal family systems, which.

Rhona Eskander: We’ve done a lot of we’ve.

Alex Potter: Done a lot of. Right.

Payman Langroudi: So what is it?

Alex Potter: It’s [00:54:20] the internal family systems is developed by a beautiful, you know, psychotherapist and psychologist called [00:54:25] Dick Schwartz. Um, it it’s built from he was a he was a family. [00:54:30] Um, it was a family therapist and recognised after a series of sort [00:54:35] of, you know, of a 30 year career of working in Family Constellations that actually [00:54:40] we have an inner family that exists within us. So I’ll give you sort of the [00:54:45] the sort of the sort of broad brush strokes. There’s a part of you [00:54:50] that, you know, wants to, um, you know, eat the chocolate bar [00:54:55] and a part of you that says, you know, you’ve had enough chocolate today. Okay. Can you see those two parts? Sure. [00:55:00] Yeah. Can you see the. Can you see the part of you that’s observing those two parts now? Okay. So if [00:55:05] you can imagine that that part is observing, the part that’s observing those two parts is self. So in the meditative [00:55:10] practice when people, you know, through eastern practices of meditation and kind of my training, [00:55:15] you would be taught to become the observer of your thoughts. So in this instance, instead of becoming [00:55:20] the observer of your thoughts, where you can recognise that these are just things that are passing [00:55:25] by, and you can choose whether or not to attach to the story or the ruminating thought [00:55:30] or return to self. And you can use your breath to do that. And a practice of, [00:55:35] you know, meeting the moment where it’s at at all times, right? So [00:55:40] the internal family system is that I can observe a part of me that might be feeling upset, or [00:55:45] that a part of me that’s feeling protective, or a part of me that’s feeling scared, or a part of [00:55:50] me that’s feeling hopeful.

Alex Potter: And so rather than allow myself [00:55:55] to become the story or the experience, which I think so many of us get caught with, where [00:56:00] you drop and and and drop into that space of darkness. [00:56:05] We have different practices that are able to help us create maps for the psyche, [00:56:10] that can help us create some space in between stimulus [00:56:15] and response, as Viktor Frankl would say, is a space, and in that space is our power to choose [00:56:20] how we respond. So one of the things that I teach and have worked [00:56:25] with, you know, Rhona on is recognising when we’re blending [00:56:30] into a part of us that’s more of our managerial protective part or more of our firefighter [00:56:35] part Or and and giving us the opportunity to recognise wow, there’s [00:56:40] an inner child part that it might be seeking our attention. Now that inner child [00:56:45] part, when it’s being neglected or when it’s being ignored, is more likely to [00:56:50] start to. We’ll try and get your attention. If we’re sat around a family table [00:56:55] right now and the little, little one of your children is asking for your attention, and you [00:57:00] continue to ignore it and cross it over to the table, what’s it going to do?

Payman Langroudi: I know you’ve [00:57:05] even brought this up. You’ve brought this up many times in these conversations.

Alex Potter: So, so one of the [00:57:10] things in this model and through this lens that I really found so incredibly empowering [00:57:15] was, wow, that the inner child or the part of me that is seeking my attention [00:57:20] may start, you know, saying things in order to get my attention. [00:57:25] And those might be intrusive thoughts that limit me.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not you, though.

Payman Langroudi: It’s one of the parts [00:57:30] of you.

Alex Potter: Yeah. Self Khan in this model like self is, you know, unique self [00:57:35] to self.

Payman Langroudi: That is such a useful way of looking at it.

Rhona Eskander: Because you know. But you know, what’s really hard is what I found [00:57:40] is, is that people that haven’t done this kind of work really find it difficult, and [00:57:45] it’s really hard to give people grace. One of the things that me and my partner argue about a lot [00:57:50] is because he has not done this kind of work. He’s a little bit more black and white thinking. Um, so if you’ve [00:57:55] not like whereas like he doesn’t understand where I have empathy, I’m going to bring up a little bit of a controversial subject. [00:58:00] So, you know, this whole like thing with the Luigi Maglione, the, the guy [00:58:05] that just killed. Right. So my partner is very much like, I think it’s absolutely [00:58:10] dreadful that people are celebrating someone that killed another [00:58:15] person. And the person that he killed really didn’t have that much control over an entire system [00:58:20] that’s flawed. And he was like, it’s just madness. Now, there was two parts to this because on the [00:58:25] one hand, he was like, the reason the internet is celebrating it is because the guy is good looking, because [00:58:30] if he was a red, um, a red neck Trump supporting, hating [00:58:35] American guy. You know, everyone would be like a redneck killed this dude. You know, it wouldn’t even have made the news in [00:58:40] the same way. Or even if it was, you know, an immigrant or a black person or anything like that, he was like it [00:58:45] would hit differently. That was one part. You know how social media idolises looks, as [00:58:50] it were. And then the other part was, how can we celebrate someone that’s killed someone? But obviously the [00:58:55] part side of me and all the work that I’ve done, like, yeah, but you never understand. Of course, I’m not going to go around murdering people [00:59:00] that I’m angry with, but until you’ve been in that person’s shoes, it’s the same with the Menendez [00:59:05] brothers, for example. You can’t really know what is going on for that person, what their history [00:59:10] was, what that part of them was. Of course, I’m not saying killing someone is easy, but I have empathy. [00:59:15]

Payman Langroudi: For.

Rhona Eskander: People.

Payman Langroudi: I think everyone in prison needs a conversation and talk and [00:59:20] understanding and whoever has committed a crime. I find what you said particularly useful in [00:59:25] so much as sometimes the tension between two behaviours that are both [00:59:30] useful but opposite. Yes. You know, like someone like you.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me who [00:59:35] you are. Who you are. You’ve become. Who you’ve become because you haven’t sat back and sat [00:59:40] on your laurels. You’ve constantly pushed. And yet what you [00:59:45] need more than anything is peace. And being at peace is [00:59:50] almost like being content. And being content to you is almost like a dirty word. [00:59:55] Because if you were content, you wouldn’t be the type of person to keep pushing.

Rhona Eskander: Well, that’s what he always.

Payman Langroudi: Says to me. And [01:00:00] yet when you can separate those and say, these are both part of me now, it serves me to look [01:00:05] at contentment. Now it serves me. If you’ve got the the ability to change [01:00:10] your the way you look at it, that’s it’s amazing. And that’s a wonderful thing.

Alex Potter: Therein [01:00:15] lies your freedom, right. Because you choose, we develop protective parts [01:00:20] that come online at a younger age to protect the inner child part of us. So something that might happen, [01:00:25] okay, if we’re not getting attention. Well, the part of us that that might be too hard for the [01:00:30] for the child at that developmental model, you know, and during it’s a sort of attachment stage to [01:00:35] work out actually how it’s feeling because it’s actually feels so overwhelmed. [01:00:40] And in this model, a part that’s traditionally when a protective part comes [01:00:45] online, that protective or managerial part. Well, I tell you, what I’m going to do is [01:00:50] I know how to make us, you know, actually receive attention. So I’ll start getting [01:00:55] good grades, I’ll start performing well, I’ll start building businesses, I’ll start X, Y, and Z. So [01:01:00] we develop this, these, these, these parts of ourselves that can, can [01:01:05] help us overcome our challenges. Now that’s great. And that’s all well and good. And it’s not to. [01:01:10] There’s no such thing as any bad. There’s no bad part here. It’s just acknowledging when we’ve blended [01:01:15] into one at the cost of the other. So if we’re all go, go, go. So to talk to my own story, [01:01:20] I was probably seeking attention, you know, in some way, shape or [01:01:25] form. I wanted to be validated. I was small, I didn’t feel that at that time that I was being [01:01:30] seen. So I wanted to be seen.

Alex Potter: I wanted to be loved. You know, I was small, [01:01:35] so, you know, I thought the girls were taller than me. So it was, you know, harder to, you know, to [01:01:40] find a girl who was short and kind of, you know, looked and, you know, wanted to be with the short [01:01:45] guy. So, you know, you that part of you then develops some really clever [01:01:50] coping mechanisms about how it can be seen, how it can be loved, how it can be validated. [01:01:55] And to to use my own story and speaking for myself, [01:02:00] what I was able to see was that after a while, that part of me exhausted [01:02:05] the body because it’s it’s operating from a place where I was. It was [01:02:10] burning out because there’s no there was no stopping it. It was like, I know how to make us feel better. I know how to help us be [01:02:15] seen. And after a while I recognised wow. Like, actually there’s [01:02:20] in doing this work and you know, I’ve, you know, trained in breathwork, as I said, and multiyear [01:02:25] a multiyear initiation into plant medicine and different. I spent times [01:02:30] with different tribes and lived in the jungle and sat in different meditation halls and worked with different [01:02:35] from, you know, from different schools of eastern practices [01:02:40] to actually learn how to return to [01:02:45] my self, like the, the, the, the [01:02:50] part of me that can actually the self can hold all parts of me, the inner child, the protective [01:02:55] part, the firefighter part, and to be able to, instead of being the part that’s holding the [01:03:00] Atlas ball that I talked about, actually, I can self can hold all of it.

Alex Potter: It can feel [01:03:05] supported, supported and and and held by, [01:03:10] you know, if you want to go super woo woo but sort of the cosmic father, the cosmic [01:03:15] mother, the cosmic child like the, the the opportunity to be held by the [01:03:20] universe itself when we think about and like this, this [01:03:25] you asked about darkness or depression, and I talked about this sort of architecture of hope. I’m [01:03:30] fascinated by the world. I don’t want [01:03:35] to leave it. I want to be in it. I don’t want to ascend out of it. I want to learn [01:03:40] how to how to live here as [01:03:45] an as full of joy and inspiration and hope. You know, because I [01:03:50] see people and I work with people and I know and I can see through. And [01:03:55] that’s why I didn’t realise I thought everyone had it. But I can see through your part that’s protecting [01:04:00] the inner child. I can see that child that [01:04:05] seeks to be heard, loved, to be held, to be told it’s going to be okay, to be told it’s safe. [01:04:10] That is empathy. That is the capacity to see to your point, beyond [01:04:15] the action of that person.

Rhona Eskander: I think that is extremely [01:04:20] rare. And the thing is, when you said, what’s the thing about that you struggle with the most? Well. Payman asked [01:04:25] about that. The thing that I struggled the most is that people aren’t truly seen and accepted for who they are. [01:04:30] And it’s so funny because when you enter the realm of healing and when you go delve [01:04:35] into this more and now you’ve heard so many of our speakers. Empathy is something that isn’t [01:04:40] present in a lot of people. The judgement even think about it in dentistry, right? The [01:04:45] GDC, the governing bodies, you know, like shame on you. Your action was bad. [01:04:50] There is never like society is not built on understanding people. Society [01:04:55] is built on this like capitalist punishment. And I don’t listen like I’m not this.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:05:00] yet it’s in everyone. You know exactly his his role in getting it out of everyone. Yeah, [01:05:05] it’s a nice thing.

Alex Potter: And also, just like, uh, Marshall Rosenberg, another incredible [01:05:10] psychotherapist and author of Non-Violent communication, you said this [01:05:15] statement, which we’ve shared before, this quote, every projection and judgement is [01:05:20] a tragic expression of an unloved need now that [01:05:25] every projection and judgement is a tragic expression of an unloved need. So the judgement [01:05:30] that we see in others is actually a response to [01:05:35] some tenderness inside us that, yeah, that, that, [01:05:40] that, that unloved need. So if you think about the unloved need, well, that is the need of the of the inner child [01:05:45] who now sees something happening that he’s been or she’s been told [01:05:50] or wasn’t able to do or feel as a child, then when they see it in the [01:05:55] external world, it is now. It is perceived as a judgement, as something that we want [01:06:00] to remove or tell you off. Now we live in a more left [01:06:05] hemispheric orientated society. It’s more logical, rational, organising, [01:06:10] practical. Um, this is how things are. These are the rules. We live in Britain, [01:06:15] you know. This is the hierarchy of how things should need or must be done. The [01:06:20] right hemisphere is more intuitive, it’s more, you know, accessing of the more feminine [01:06:25] archetype within us.

Alex Potter: It’s more accessing of wisdom and inner knowledge and inner knowing. [01:06:30] Now the the work is that is that what the opportunity [01:06:35] here is that everyone has access to all of themself, right? It’s just [01:06:40] so many of us have built walls around our hearts for good reason to protect [01:06:45] ourselves, to self defend and to know and to see that every [01:06:50] single person on this planet, our job on this planet, through speaking for myself, is to take [01:06:55] care of every single human being, every single plant, every single tree, every single, you [01:07:00] know, bird in the sky and fish in the sea. In a sense that when we fall back in love [01:07:05] with ourself and we will fall back in love with nature, there’s a lot of tired activists. [01:07:10] We fall back in love with nature. By dint of that, we’ll fall back in love with ourself. We can’t. [01:07:15] Not because it’s the relationship and the relationship that exists [01:07:20] in all of us and in life is to deeply reconnect [01:07:25] to that which is most meaningful, which is our self, and where you [01:07:30] can find it. That’s the beauty, is that there are so many different pathways. There are so many. [01:07:35] Great.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that information itself can be enough, [01:07:40] or do you think there has? It has to go hand in hand with something like breathwork [01:07:45] or with plant medicine.

Rhona Eskander: Let’s talk a little bit about the plant [01:07:50] medicine. Yeah.

Alex Potter: So well two things. So I love a love a quote by Lao Tzu [01:07:55] who said, in the pursuit of knowledge, man adds one thing every day, and in the pursuit of wisdom, [01:08:00] he subtracts one thing every day. And so to that context, like [01:08:05] information isn’t embodied, information is [01:08:10] through the mind. You know, so it’s it’s not enough to, to, [01:08:15] um, know the knowledge. You have to embody the wisdom. So we have [01:08:20] to be able to connect to our bodies, connect to our heart, [01:08:25] to understand how to live in [01:08:30] a way that is more aligned with our true nature. The challenge that we’re faced [01:08:35] with is like, now there’s we’ve got pop psychology, we’ve got bite sized pieces of information. Everyone [01:08:40] is now an expert on trauma. You know, like we all are able we’re able to talk in [01:08:45] a way that kind of we understand it. But do you really understand it? Do you really know what it feels like [01:08:50] to be at the bottom of the pit, where everything in your life feels [01:08:55] like ash grey like? And yes, you asked me before. There have been times [01:09:00] where I have been there.

Payman Langroudi: But do I have to have been there? Can’t you, can’t you?

Alex Potter: Yes. [01:09:05] You don’t. And thank thank God you haven’t. Right. And and and the reason [01:09:10] for being is like there’s a, there’s another quote I like and I’m sorry to give you tons of quotes, but, you know, [01:09:15] Rumi said like, you know, don’t take Don’t take advice from someone who hasn’t left home.

Rhona Eskander: That’s [01:09:20] why. Yeah, that’s why I chose Alex.

Alex Potter: Yeah, like cool, like fine people. If you’re [01:09:25] struggling with something, there are tons of people out there. The hardest thing is that we [01:09:30] don’t know how to ask for help. That’s what I’m so grateful for. Because I’m not making social media wrong here. I’m [01:09:35] just. I’m just noticing, like, you know, and it’s offering people such [01:09:40] vantage points now to like, what to explore and things like what you’re doing with podcasts as [01:09:45] such, have allowed people to have more long form conversations. I’m so grateful for it, because [01:09:50] there is the most fun thing is [01:09:55] that that I’ve noticed is that follow your curiosity, right. Your hardships, [01:10:00] your challenges. Like from the sort of stoic perspective, you know, challenge. You know, [01:10:05] it challenges what’s in your way. It’s on your way. You know, it’s it’s it’s recognising [01:10:10] that in this culture. And I can talk now to Camp Kaizen, which is our retreats, [01:10:15] you know, Brüno offering introduces the idea of rites of passage for the [01:10:20] modern world. Now, in ancient and original and indigenous cultures, [01:10:25] rites of passage were woven into the fabric of society. There [01:10:30] were demarcations from maid to maiden to mother to grandmother, [01:10:35] to sage, to no one. There was demarcations for men who would [01:10:40] go from boy to adolescent to man to sage, to no one. You would you? [01:10:45] These these demarcations would be would be met by initiatory [01:10:50] practices, whether or not that’s plant medicine, whether or not it’s a vision quest [01:10:55] out in nature, whether or not it’s fasting or meditative practices. [01:11:00] They recognised in original cultures that in order for let’s [01:11:05] call a boy in this context, that a boy would leave the bosom of his community and his home, [01:11:10] and would leave to go out for the first kill or blood, you know, in order to [01:11:15] make that transition to manhood or adolescent, whichever place we’re looking we’re speaking [01:11:20] to, the mothers would know that some of those boys wouldn’t [01:11:25] return, but they would recognise that in going [01:11:30] through that experience, the boy would be brought to his knees to [01:11:35] recognise what he was actually capable of without the support of [01:11:40] the, the, the environment that he’d grown up in.

Payman Langroudi: He’d be forged. He’d [01:11:45] be.

Alex Potter: Forged. Yes. Now, in the West, we’ve lost access to these practices. [01:11:50] So. But willed or unwilled. The soul requires initiation. Okay. Like [01:11:55] so. When you’re talking about these moments in time. This now in the [01:12:00] West presences us more on the back foot in the indigenous and original [01:12:05] cultures. It was met on the front foot in the West. We meet it on the back foot. Mental health [01:12:10] challenges. Chronic chronic chronic health challenges, um, addiction, [01:12:15] the loss of a loved one, um, burnout, divorce, addiction, [01:12:20] the way that I perceive these things and through this lens of rites of passage and soul work is [01:12:25] that we meet these initiatory experiences, [01:12:30] but we don’t have a cultural container that can help us make sense of [01:12:35] them. So when we think actually, oh my God, that person is like, you know, [01:12:40] you know, using drink and drugs to, you know, numb his feelings. Actually, it’s a very [01:12:45] clear indication for me that he is vibrating or she is vibrating out of alignment [01:12:50] with his true or her true nature and is ready to step [01:12:55] into the next chapter of their initiatory, you know, [01:13:00] through an initiatory process into becoming.

Rhona Eskander: But a lot of people would [01:13:05] argue, and I’m just going to play devil’s advocate, right? Because I know because I’m at the side of both types of conversation, [01:13:10] that that is a person that is weak of character. Now they [01:13:15] would say that person, you know, there are two people that are suffering from two similar [01:13:20] things. One indulges in drugs and drink, the other doesn’t indulge in drugs and drink, and then people would [01:13:25] celebrate the person that doesn’t because they’re strong. It’s survival of the fittest, etc. [01:13:30] I have a completely different point of view because of my empathy side. I think it’s more complex. We know through [01:13:35] the work of Gabor Mate as well that addiction isn’t clear cut, that people are more predisposed [01:13:40] to being addicts as well. And, you know, we need to provide a space for those types of people. One [01:13:45] thing that I would say is, is that I do think with social media and pop psychology [01:13:50] and so forth, people have been a little bit too indulgent in their self-diagnosis. And [01:13:55] instead of working towards becoming better, as it were, or working [01:14:00] towards a life that they feel is more fulfilling, they’re like, I have this condition and that’s [01:14:05] that, and they just indulge in all the information about their condition rather than moving towards getting [01:14:10] better.

Alex Potter: Yeah. And I think that the critical word there was self-diagnosis. Right. Yeah. So you [01:14:15] know, the to to what we want to do is try and meet [01:14:20] people where they’re at. Right. So the judgement that we can project onto someone, you know, is [01:14:25] a is an opportunity to look at like, well, where does that come from? Okay. Like how, how, how clean is your house right. [01:14:30] One the second part is, um, we all have, um, [01:14:35] our own quote unquote [01:14:40] vices, like the areas in which we go to for relief of X, [01:14:45] Y and Z feeling symptom, you know, pursue. So what I, [01:14:50] what I, what I think is like, what is important is that you’re talking about [01:14:55] like the self-indulgence comes potentially but like that’s a internally [01:15:00] it’s going to be very self-critical. Right. Because the projection is, oh, I don’t care. This is kind of my thing, I [01:15:05] don’t care like blah blah blah. But actually the internal voice is going to be very harsh. The critic will be very harsh. [01:15:10] Which is why we tend to be drinking or relieving in some contexts. I’m not saying [01:15:15] all I’m saying some, and I’m certainly not here to pathologize. Why [01:15:20] am I talking about rites of passage for the modern world? Right? Is [01:15:25] what we’ve recognised over the last five years or more. Six years of running different [01:15:30] retreats and working and introducing different forms of rites of passage is [01:15:35] that, you know, there is a requirement for, [01:15:40] um, stepping out. You know, a rites of passage tends [01:15:45] to follow sort of three, um, chapters. One is the separation, the separation [01:15:50] from that which, you know, like is your comfortable zone. Then there is the [01:15:55] stage of liminality. The liminality is where you, you move to a place or [01:16:00] you go on retreat or you spend time, you know, in a different country X, Y, and Z, where [01:16:05] the rules of your societal upbringing don’t apply.

Alex Potter: You can [01:16:10] dress up. You can. You can dance. You can be free. You can play different [01:16:15] characters. You can learn about different things, about yourself. And at some point, [01:16:20] there is the the conceptualisation of the return, as once [01:16:25] you have gone through an experience where you have placed [01:16:30] yourself in an environment or an experience where [01:16:35] you learn more about yourself, and you can then return with the gifts [01:16:40] of that, you know those of that inquiry. Plant medicine [01:16:45] experiences working with ayahuasca, psilocybin. These types of experiences are built [01:16:50] on this premise, right? Was that these were initiatory [01:16:55] practices that people would engage with at threshold [01:17:00] moments or transitional moments in their life to [01:17:05] help them realign with their soul purpose, their [01:17:10] soul nature. It wasn’t prescribed. It wasn’t like you do this and then you’re going to go and do these [01:17:15] 12 steps. Like it was like it was it was offered to them that it would become self-generated, [01:17:20] that you would be able to find the answers within. And so in [01:17:25] a world which is fighting for our attention, it’s very difficult to find [01:17:30] the time and space to actually listen to what is [01:17:35] emerging from within. Yeah, that’s why we design these experiences. We take people [01:17:40] away into beautiful, deep nature. Yeah. You know, [01:17:45] habitats where we engage in ancient practices, [01:17:50] where we honour ancient practices with the wisdom keepers that are still maintaining those practices [01:17:55] and help you apply that in modern applications for [01:18:00] today. Whether or not you are, we were you know, we.

[TRANSITION]: Work.

Rhona Eskander: I was gonna say. Is [01:18:05] it lots of like, CEOs? Is it? What kind of people kind of come on the retreat?

Alex Potter: You know, although [01:18:10] the majority of my clients are CEOs, our leaders are [01:18:15] public figures. I and we feel we work [01:18:20] with people like we have a predisposition and a desire to work with people who seek to live life [01:18:25] at their growth edge, who recognise that their life [01:18:30] and is an opportunity for this great adventure. Yeah. [01:18:35] And to recognise that healing doesn’t need to be this dark, this heavy, [01:18:40] this painful place. Right. Like you spoke to Marty. Marty [01:18:45] would say that trauma isn’t what happens to you. It’s what happens in the body as a result of what happens [01:18:50] to you. Okay. And on the flip side, I would say we are trying to create spaces [01:18:55] of unconditional love, right? Where unconditional love isn’t what happens [01:19:00] to you. It’s what happens in your body as a result of what happens to you, is to create [01:19:05] more opportunities where people can gather in community, where you can be seen and [01:19:10] met without your title, without your label. So yes, we do tend to work [01:19:15] with people who are who are seeking to pursue and create [01:19:20] in an in an authentic expression of themselves and in, in [01:19:25] service of greater, of something greater than themselves. And more often than not, we do find that [01:19:30] CEOs and leaders are people who have driven themselves to [01:19:35] the brink in order to be seen, to be loved, to be valued as a relationship [01:19:40] to how they feel about themselves.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s so super interesting. You know, right now we’re [01:19:45] interested in original cultures. How did how did Neanderthals [01:19:50] eat? How did they have sex? We’re so interested in that right now. Yeah. [01:19:55] And I think, you know, in the 60s, people were. Yeah, you know, that [01:20:00] that whole hippie thing and free love and all that. And I remember in the 90s [01:20:05] it became like that a bit in the dance culture. We get all these tribal gatherings [01:20:10] and all of that. And it’s an interesting thing that society kind of goes [01:20:15] through this phase every 30 years or so and, you know, where’s the next one? [01:20:20] And the 70s, I remember my mum telling me everyone said, don’t drink mother’s milk. And [01:20:25] science took over and powdered milk to go. And here we are with AI now. And [01:20:30] we’re the next, next decade’s going to go. It’s going to be very interesting.

Alex Potter: It’s going to be wild.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:20:35] not by mistake that you’re into this. I mean, my my friend, the McKinsey [01:20:40] bro. Yeah. Went to Peru and did ayahuasca, you know, like it’s become a [01:20:45] it’s become a whole movement. It’s a whole movement.

Alex Potter: It’s it’s a movement that needs to and [01:20:50] like and this is the thing like requires the right safeguarding, the right preparation, [01:20:55] the right integration. Because these experiences are can be, can be [01:21:00] can be very bewildering. It can be very opening, and you have to be. And I’m not saying I don’t believe that psychedelics [01:21:05] are a stateless like like, categorically I don’t believe it’s for everyone. And that’s not because like, oh, you’ve got to be of a [01:21:10] certain ilk, but it is important to have the right type of resources, the right [01:21:15] type of people around guardrails, the guardrails. And there’s a lot of neo shamans, [01:21:20] like people, you know, presenting themselves in ways without necessarily. I don’t mean to [01:21:25] make that wrong. I’m just cautious of anyone or or any [01:21:30] business that doesn’t have, you know, the right type of harm reduction built into [01:21:35] it. Um, and that was something that we were very, you know, we were very intentional about [01:21:40] is knowing what lane do we play in, who can we work with?

Payman Langroudi: What does it cost to come to the thing? [01:21:45]

Rhona Eskander: Do you want to go to.

Alex Potter: Well, so it starts from 2250 [01:21:50] and that is for the five day retreat. And then there’s two weeks of preparation and two weeks of [01:21:55] integration afterwards and then reasonable. And you join the you join we have a and then we have a community [01:22:00] support called the you know, the Unwind Club, which is an online and offline [01:22:05] um group that continues to meet every month.

Payman Langroudi: Ayahuasca in that.

Alex Potter: No, [01:22:10] no, no, that’s, that’s a it’s an online breathwork and meditation journey for the community. [01:22:15]

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I didn’t say that.

Alex Potter: And the retreat in um in April. So April 9th [01:22:20] to 13th and we’ve got another one in August. Um, that’s where we work with psilocybin. Um, [01:22:25] and we integrate psilocybin and breathwork into, into that ceremony.

Rhona Eskander: So one thing I want to say to you is because this is [01:22:30] something that a lot of people ask me, and, you know, we haven’t got much long, [01:22:35] we haven’t got a long time. But I do want I think this is an important point to address for people [01:22:40] that say that anyone that really wants to help people in [01:22:45] the way that you have should have a psychotherapy degree. Now, I want to kind of address the elephant [01:22:50] in the room, because sometimes I get asked that by psychotherapists that I know or friend psychotherapist because [01:22:55] they’re like, it can be so dangerous treating clients with all these plethora of [01:23:00] issues and traumas. If you’re not a trained psychotherapist, and obviously I have a therapist [01:23:05] and I have you. So don’t really fall into that camp anyway. But what would be your response to that? [01:23:10]

Alex Potter: Um, so look, I think it’s a really it’s a beautiful question. Right. And I think there [01:23:15] are a lot of. You know, part of our team are incredible psychotherapists and depth psychologists. So [01:23:20] we we naturally are fascinated with the mind. Um, [01:23:25] psychotherapy. Modern psychotherapy was developed in the 1950s. Just to give you some context [01:23:30] of like how long we’re actually talking about. We’re talking about practice that’s been around for 70 years with [01:23:35] new and evolved therapies and developing, um, [01:23:40] psychotherapy traditionally divorces the mind from the body. Divorces matter [01:23:45] from spirit. Um, I think there are alternative pathways, [01:23:50] but it’s super important that the person who you’re working with, you feel comfortable [01:23:55] as a as it relates to your attachment style around safety and how you feel heard. [01:24:00] I find that people who are very strongly opinionated about something often have [01:24:05] their own judgement and self critique of themselves, so it’s a projection once again. The person who needs [01:24:10] to basically clarify why you should or shouldn’t work with someone. [01:24:15] There’s a there’s a there’s a beautiful mirror for them to to to to to also look for themselves. [01:24:20] Um, and short of that I don’t [01:24:25] think it needs to be one or the other. Right. I personally feel that healing [01:24:30] and growth and and the opportunities for magic and understanding what’s [01:24:35] available in this world, there are there are more traditional, more allopathic models that [01:24:40] one of the the challenges I find is when, um, symptoms are diagnosed [01:24:45] and then treated, um, by things like, but by [01:24:50] with some medicines that actually don’t help you get to the root cause of the of the problem.

Alex Potter: So the [01:24:55] approach that I take is we look at the holistic person as a whole. We look at [01:25:00] mental, physical, relational and spiritual domains. We work with people. So [01:25:05] with our team we will we will have an onboarding with us. And based on where we are [01:25:10] based on that onboarding and what you’re more drawn to, you might start with one of our psychotherapists [01:25:15] and then move to one of our coaches, or move to one of our medicine workers, or [01:25:20] or move to one of our guides. I think the thing that I [01:25:25] come back to, which is probably the important piece, is for me, I [01:25:30] want to the people that I’ve worked with are the people are some. [01:25:35] And I’ve been fortunate to work with some very wise and very, you know, wise teachers and [01:25:40] elders in this space and personally. I [01:25:45] like to work with people who’ve left home.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [01:25:50] I would agree with that. And I think really the answer is, is that you’re doing it responsibly. I think that [01:25:55] it’s important to do your due diligence. There are coaches online. I have been stung by a coach before, [01:26:00] and I think that working with Alex, you know, you’re very responsible. You only take on [01:26:05] certain clients. You make sure that you adhere to a program for a certain amount of time. You enter [01:26:10] refer. And I think that’s the message that I give to people. There are good therapists, there are bad therapists, there are good [01:26:15] coaches, there are bad coaches. And I think the multidisciplinary approach with Kaizen is what’s [01:26:20] definitely helped me. Why are you laughing at me?

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about your little girl. Like, what’s your little.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, [01:26:25] we don’t have time. I don’t have time to go into.

Payman Langroudi: Your little girl. Say, go on, what’s the headline?

Rhona Eskander: Look, the [01:26:30] little girl feel. The little girl always feels like she’s not enough and not heard right. He’s [01:26:35] always obsessed with this. He’s like, why? Your life is perfect. No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Why? No. What happened? [01:26:40] What happened.

Rhona Eskander: Back then? I think, like, look, there’s a plethora of things, and this is not a session [01:26:45] time, okay? You know, if you want to find out more, you’re going to have to do this offline. But [01:26:50] what I do want to say is, um, Alex, before we end, could you please share with everyone the website? [01:26:55] Because as I said, Alex does not have social media. Um, it’s through word of mouth. Uh, could you [01:27:00] please tell us what your website is if people want to look further?

Alex Potter: For sure. Thank you, both of you, for having [01:27:05] me. And it was a wonderful conversation. I hope we can do it again. Yeah, you can find more access to [01:27:10] us at WW. Dot. Yeah. Kaizen k a I xenko [01:27:15] that’s ww WW kaizen.co. [01:27:20] And that’s not with an E okay.

Rhona Eskander: I love that so much. Do you have a final question [01:27:25] for Alex. As in like one of the profound ones that you ask? No, I.

Payman Langroudi: Just wanted to know who the he [01:27:30] wants to.

Rhona Eskander: Know more about the.

Payman Langroudi: Why the little girl is not enough. That would be nice. After 38 episodes. [01:27:35]

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Do you want to end with that after 38 episodes? He says he wants to know why. Go [01:27:40] on. I don’t mind telling the Dental world. Why does the little Rona not feel enough?

[TRANSITION]: Beautiful. [01:27:45]

Alex Potter: Oh, you want me to ask? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You know me, Alex. Now.

[TRANSITION]: Code.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:27:50] one line.

Alex Potter: It’s not that she doesn’t feel [01:27:55] that she’s. It’s not that she doesn’t feel that she’s not enough. It’s that you’re not spending enough time [01:28:00] with.

[TRANSITION]: Her, okay?

Payman Langroudi: She’s disconnected from her.

Alex Potter: Yeah. So the [01:28:05] the the opportunity here is to find [01:28:10] and steal those quiet moments for yourself. Yeah. To ask her what she would [01:28:15] like to.

[TRANSITION]: Do instead.

Rhona Eskander: Of shutting her up.

Alex Potter: Instead of instead of shutting her up or pushing her [01:28:20] away, or telling her that, you know, that. That she’s too busy. [01:28:25]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Alex Potter: And we have an opportunity to reparent ourselves. And healing begins [01:28:30] by reclaiming the parts of us that we have either pushed away or suppressed, [01:28:35] and we can walk them home by just bringing them [01:28:40] into our awareness.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Alex. What a great conversation. [01:28:45] Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: Thank you, thank you.

Riaz Sharif shares his incredible journey from growing up in the foster care system to becoming a successful dental professional. He opens up about the challenges of his childhood as an orphan, his determination to pursue dentistry despite numerous setbacks, and his experiences studying abroad in Hungary and Slovakia. 

In This Episode

00:01:55 – Backstory
00:08:35 – Boxing
00:13:45 – Study
00:19:00 – Personal challenges
00:24:25 – Return to the UK
00:29:10 -Social media presence and marketing
00:47:45 – Blackbox thinking
00:56:30 – Aspirations
01.03.40 – Fantasy dinner party
01:09:15 – Last days and legacy

About Riaz Sharif

Riaz Sharif is a UK-based dentist and finalist for multiple industry awards, including the Private Dentistry Awards. Riaz brings a unique perspective to dentistry shaped by his background in boxing and personal training, along with his commitment to mentoring the next generation of dental professionals.

Payman Langroudi: This pod is brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover, which is a two day [00:00:05] anterior composite hands on course led by Depeche Palmer. Loads [00:00:10] of people do A-line, bleach, bond, and there’s plenty of people who find the aligning [00:00:15] bit and the bleaching bit more comfortable, but the bonding bit a lot [00:00:20] less comfortable. And then the bonding bit is the bit. Is the sugar on top of the case? My advice is [00:00:25] practice, but if you want to go on a course, the best course I know is called Mini Smile Makeover. [00:00:30] All the way from class three, four, five to diastema closure, composite veneers, the [00:00:35] basics and the advanced monochromatic Polychromatic Restorations mini Smile makeover. [00:00:40] If you’re interested, let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:00:55] Your hosts Payman [00:01:00] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:05] gives me great pleasure to welcome Riaz Sharif to the pod. Rios [00:01:10] I’m a mini small maker. Um, but as [00:01:15] a turbulent journey to become a dentist and is now making the best of both that [00:01:20] and his teaching and sports. Um. [00:01:25] And mindset. Lovely to have you, buddy.

Riaz Sharif: Thanks for having for having me. Appreciate it. [00:01:30] Yeah. It’s, um, it’s been a journey so far. To be honest, I didn’t really expect to get where [00:01:35] I am today based on what, you know, where I started off. But yeah, it’s been [00:01:40] a good few years and eventually getting to where I want to be, to be honest. But, yeah, appreciate [00:01:45] you having me on on the show.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive pleasure. It’s a massive pleasure. Thank you. But tell me about your [00:01:50] background. So, um, as a child.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. So as a child, I was raised in, actually in London. Um, [00:01:55] so it’s nice to actually be back in, back in north west London, in London and Camden. But I was born in Hackney. [00:02:00] I was raised as a. I was an orphan, actually. So I was came out of hospital [00:02:05] and entered the system. So, yeah, I didn’t really know, [00:02:10] you know, it was dysfunctional. You know, as a child, you don’t know where you’re going. You’re taken from one [00:02:15] place to another place. You’re entering family homes with with children that you don’t know. You’re [00:02:20] you know, you’re accepted, you’re made to bond with them. And then about 2 or 3 [00:02:25] years later, or even less than that, you’re, you’re you’re up on your, on your feet and you’re gone again. So obviously that [00:02:30] does have a negative impact on your on your development as a child. And, and actually what you want [00:02:35] to achieve as a, as a person to growing up. So yeah, that that was a challenge. Obviously being young [00:02:40] and obviously picking your sort of path in life and knowing what’s good and bad. [00:02:45] But no, it’s been it’s been challenging.

Payman Langroudi: What happened to your parents?

Riaz Sharif: So [00:02:50] my mum and dad well, I never knew my mum and dad. So yeah, what I’ve heard [00:02:55] is that she was a was a very young woman. Um, I don’t the stories. I don’t think she could have [00:03:00] looked after me. So obviously she’d done her best and gave me up to Post-adoption services [00:03:05] in Hackney. And the rest is history. So, um, whatever she hoped [00:03:10] for me, it sort of, um. That was just destiny, I guess, wasn’t it? But, [00:03:15] um. Yeah, she. I have been in search for her, and that’s obviously, I think, as any orphan, you [00:03:20] know, it’s the biggest question in your life. You want to find out who who you are. You know, you look in the mirror, you wonder, [00:03:25] you know, who your mum and dad were. And especially as a man or a woman or a young woman. [00:03:30] You want to think, am I? Would they be proud of me? You know, do I represent them? And [00:03:35] who are they? So I did try and look for them, and it’s been a big search. But I, you know, I haven’t really it’s hit [00:03:40] dead end so far, so but it’s been one of my things that I do want to accomplish [00:03:45] one day and I will not give up on it. But meantime I’ll sort of, you know, press forward and [00:03:50] wanted to make something of myself. And I think as, as orphans, you can either go either go left or right. You [00:03:55] can either go down a dark path, which I did go down growing up. And obviously [00:04:00] you sort of steer away and go hope for the light and keep aiming high and hope [00:04:05] hopefully there’s a lot of good, positive influences around you that can help you. And I did have that fortunately [00:04:10] like a few people.

Payman Langroudi: So foster care.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. There you know there was a yeah I was [00:04:15] I was in a few good foster carer homes. So a lot of them were South African people and Caribbean families. [00:04:20] So you know, and you, you form friendships with the children. So but [00:04:25] you know as a young child you got glimpses of it. But then obviously there’s a few key people that did stand [00:04:30] out. And there was one.

Payman Langroudi: There was one important point, right, that in [00:04:35] adverse conditions, the worst of humanity seems to, [00:04:40] you know, come out sometimes, but also the best.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Yeah, it’s a very [00:04:45] important point. You know, you’ve got your adverse conditions. It could be war. It could be anything. [00:04:50] Tell me, tell me about. I’d like to like to hear a couple of examples of both, really, if I’m honest with [00:04:55] you. If you want to talk about the worst parts. I definitely want to hear about the best part.

Riaz Sharif: The worst parts are the attachments, [00:05:00] so you know, the bonds that you form with the family and the emotional connection that you can gain. And then obviously [00:05:05] it’s taken away from you. And as a young man, you sort of you, you, you lack these [00:05:10] certain emotional boundaries and attachments that you form as an adult. And it does it does affect [00:05:15] your relationships growing up. It affects your you know, your you know who you are and [00:05:20] what you resemble and what you you know who you are as a person, really, but that’s for you [00:05:25] to sort of mould and then redesign yourself as a as a young man and not let that trauma of the past [00:05:30] affect you. And, you know, it does take a lot of a lot of work, I [00:05:35] believe. And I’m getting there.

Payman Langroudi: But how does it leave you? Is it is it that you’ve got a debt [00:05:40] of safety and now you crave safety?

Riaz Sharif: I used to.

Payman Langroudi: I used to.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:05:45] I think it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: You love being in love.

Riaz Sharif: I think it’s the the the idea of being [00:05:50] acknowledged and appreciated and loved, like you said, you know. And, [00:05:55] you know, reciprocating that love into your into your either your partner, your sibling, your your [00:06:00] your siblings, if you have any or your, your children or even your career, you know, and [00:06:05] your lifestyle. And I think, um, it’s a big thing to, to sort of I think anyone [00:06:10] has to learn how to do it, you know, and we all have our ways. But those traumas of the past, [00:06:15] they only make I thought they were traumas. But as you get older, they.

Payman Langroudi: Make you stronger.

Riaz Sharif: I [00:06:20] appreciate them, I’ve learned. I’ve learned to be grateful for what I went through. And it’s [00:06:25] been, you know, it’s been lonely growing up. But I got here.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I bet. And what do you see as the sort [00:06:30] of the inflection point between someone who’s going down the dark path [00:06:35] and then at one point, when are.

Riaz Sharif: You going to.

Payman Langroudi: Look for the positive? What is it that [00:06:40] why does one guy go that way and one go or at one time someone goes that way?

Riaz Sharif: I think when [00:06:45] you’re when you’re you’re young and you don’t have a lot of, um, good, positive attitude around [00:06:50] you or influence you. You know, one person’s telling you to do something bad. One person is [00:06:55] whispering to do something good. You don’t know who to listen to. Yeah. And normally, and obviously one path seems easier. [00:07:00] You’ll take that. And you know, the more challenging pathways don’t you don’t want to do that. It doesn’t make sense [00:07:05] to you unless, you know, it’s different to being raised in a house that is your natural family. [00:07:10] I believe. You know, you’re raising your kids and you’re guiding them from and especially from a family who are professionals, [00:07:15] for example, dentists or doctors or lawyers or whatever they are, and they’re guiding their children [00:07:20] and they’re influencing them daily. Like, listen, you could they got role models around you. I never had any role [00:07:25] models. My role models were people who I don’t even remember right now, and [00:07:30] they meant nothing to me. But I did have one role model, and he was a lovely [00:07:35] man, and he was one of my foster fathers. And I believe the way he stayed my [00:07:40] career as a dentist, like to become a dentist or make something of my life and and because [00:07:45] because of his interest in it at the time and his is a reflection on me. He was like, listen, you can sit down and [00:07:50] you know, this is going on in, you know, you could be a dentist and maybe you can, you know, it was it was I didn’t [00:07:55] really give a crap about it. I didn’t, I didn’t, wasn’t interested.

Payman Langroudi: But somehow I.

Riaz Sharif: Had this small, like I said to you, [00:08:00] this small influence that was there. But, you know, you only later on appreciate [00:08:05] it and think, well, that was important. And so you.

Payman Langroudi: Think he had an interest in medicine and he [00:08:10] was trying to live it out.

Riaz Sharif: You know, or something. Yeah. He was he was actually seeing a dentist for his, [00:08:15] for his own cosmetic work in Harley Street. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously he, you know, I was a young teenager, a bit [00:08:20] disruptive, didn’t really have an educational background. Yeah. And he, he’d still, um, [00:08:25] checking on me. Actually, I was quite fortunate. We were good friends, even after he, you know, he had his own life. [00:08:30] And, um, he was always saying, listen, there’s this is a good career [00:08:35] stable. You know, boxing was my main scope of of of income.

Payman Langroudi: And also [00:08:40] at that point.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, keeping me busy. So I was boxing in London at the time in Bethnal Green for dancing [00:08:45] and boxing club is a big, big club. Great coach. A lot of good. Those people in that club. Those. [00:08:50] Those clubs were my family. They. They helped me. They guided me. They made me feel [00:08:55] like I belong somewhere. And so, you know, it’s [00:09:00] that was that that helped me for a lot of things, boxing and fitness. And even today, [00:09:05] I believe as a as a dentist now finally, and making my own, [00:09:10] my own life. It’s a, it’s a it’s important for me to keep focussed with a fitness [00:09:15] background to tell me about boxing.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, fitness, I get [00:09:20] boxing. Tell me about boxing. Boxing.

Riaz Sharif: For me, growing up, it like it’s like you just mentioned. [00:09:25] You know what? What stopped me going down that dark path? It was the discipline in boxing. Yeah, yeah. [00:09:30] And even when we watch TV. Like what? You don’t realise how much those, those trainers, those [00:09:35] boxers go for in terms of discipline and commitment and and even sacrifice. [00:09:40] Yeah. But even as a, as an amateur boxer, you’re only young, but you know, you have to have to turn up. You have to [00:09:45] do the drills. You have to, you know, sweat, tears, blood. You have to face your fear in front [00:09:50] of huge guys when you spar. But those guys become your brothers. And I was lucky [00:09:55] and fortunate to have that in London. You know, when I was, when I was little, because once they all left, I didn’t have anything. I’d [00:10:00] go back to social services and stay there and, you know, but then I looked forward to having [00:10:05] that family, which I called my family and, um, yeah, it’s it’s [00:10:10] just it’s memories now, but it’s all, you know, it makes you emotional because I can tap into it and feel how I felt [00:10:15] back then and, um. Yeah, grateful for that. It was discipline that that helped me get through [00:10:20] those, those times too. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you go into a ring and you’ve been working [00:10:25] your butt off for something. Yeah, for a long time. And like you said, blood, sweat and tears. [00:10:30] Yeah. And then it goes wrong. Or one wrong move might. Might cost you your health. [00:10:35] Like, is it fear? Is fear in the moment driving you? Absolutely.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s it’s [00:10:40] you. Do you battle with yourself and you can’t, you know, you’re fighting your your mind is [00:10:45] fighting against you whether you succeed or not. But then obviously it’s a make or break situation, isn’t it, when you step into [00:10:50] the ring. Yeah, it’s different seeing it on TV. And obviously people watch these huge fights on TV every now and again, [00:10:55] you know, and these big names. But but being that person even in like a small amateur fight but I did [00:11:00] I boxed like in um like actually junior ABA championships. So it was quite successful there. [00:11:05] But even in those fights it was daunting. People cheering around you, your friends, you know, and [00:11:10] but you want to you want to do it for yourself, you know. And even if you do lose, you know, [00:11:15] for me, it was it was never it was always about going back to the drawing board and and starting again. And even [00:11:20] with my steps into dentistry, you know, I failed several times. And I always went back to the drawing [00:11:25] board and I started again. I never gave up, you know, and that’s that’s what’s in [00:11:30] it’s embedded in me as a person, as a young man now. And whatever I do, I’ll do it with 1,000%. And [00:11:35] I think, you know, and I think with, you know, as an orphan, it’s [00:11:40] I still we were we were all that small person inside us, aren’t we? I believe we’re all that small, young little [00:11:45] girl. That young little man. That young little boy. And when we’re in an adult body. But we’re still [00:11:50] trying to figure out life. Trying to learn from our mistakes. Right? And. But, [00:11:55] you know, it’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like, you know, life is sometimes. Sometimes it’s scary. [00:12:00] It’s, of course scary. Unpredictable. Look at look at it as, like a wave length, you know, like of, like, [00:12:05] amplitude and frequency, you know, and frequency is like, you know, how many times a day [00:12:10] do you go to the gym or how many times a day do you call your mom, you know, or whatever [00:12:15] it is? Yeah, yeah. But amplitude is like sort of the depth of the [00:12:20] of the experiences, you know, like the highs and the lows of [00:12:25] it. Yeah. And, you know, the way you’re describing it that you’ve had a bunch of high [00:12:30] amplitude.

Riaz Sharif: It’s, it’s been, it’s been it’s been chaos. Chaos at moments. But then, but then [00:12:35] in those chaotic moments, you, you, you hope to see the light. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does it make you make you? Does it also make [00:12:40] you like an adrenaline junkie as well?

Riaz Sharif: It makes me, you know, keep on my feet. I always [00:12:45] want to be doing something. I always hope for the best.

Payman Langroudi: You want to jump out of planes and ride motorbikes.

Riaz Sharif: I want to experience [00:12:50] life to the fullest. I want, I want, I think that I can’t I can’t live a routine life now because, [00:12:55] you know, I can’t even go to those locations. I can’t. I want to be, I want to be on the ball. I want to be [00:13:00] on the go. You know? I want to try different things. And I think, you know, it’s good. [00:13:05] I think being stuck in the same position is boring.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, there’s good and bad, like everything else is good and [00:13:10] bad.

Riaz Sharif: There’s pros and cons in it. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That, you know, like, contentment is a nice thing we were talking about.

Riaz Sharif: It’s nice to [00:13:15] have your own little safe haven.

Payman Langroudi: In the countryside now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. I live [00:13:20] with my partner in countryside right now, but yeah, we’ve got our own little place there. It’s nice and peaceful, but obviously, um. [00:13:25] Yeah, it’s like you said, I like to be on my toes. I like to try different things, [00:13:30] and it keeps me happy and busy.

Payman Langroudi: So you turned around. Does this get to the [00:13:35] applying for dentistry suddenly, you know, Studying. And so you managed to turn that around very quickly. [00:13:40]

Riaz Sharif: I never actually got into dentistry initially in the UK. So, you know, my educational background [00:13:45] was very disruptive. Didn’t really you know, I was in different schools, didn’t really go to school really. And [00:13:50] somehow I managed to get into a biomedical science route in Birmingham. [00:13:55] And that was that was about a three year degree. Bachelor’s degree. Mhm. Um, [00:14:00] didn’t really do well. And it got, got, you know, got the basics of what I needed to pass the degree. [00:14:05] But again, I didn’t get into the postgrad course. So again like I said to you it goes back to what you’re saying about determination. [00:14:10] I don’t want to give up on it. I thought either that or I become a gym trainer or, you know, I’ve had a lot of [00:14:15] jobs in my past, you know, and so I’m quite multi-skilled. I could have gone back to doing, um, you [00:14:20] know, I worked in Pizza Hut, I worked in I worked as a fishmonger. I worked in a car showroom. [00:14:25] I’ve done every job under the. Yeah. So those skills. Life skills. So I wasn’t scared of going [00:14:30] back to a normal, like a job that I could adapt to.

Payman Langroudi: It, that life skills are amazing.

Riaz Sharif: Oh, yeah. [00:14:35] But it’s nice because all those skills back then seemed tiring. And, you know, you used [00:14:40] they. It’s good. I appreciate having those jobs because, you know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Only realise keeps you humble. [00:14:45] I only realised about, I don’t know, 5 or 6 years ago the number of people [00:14:50] whose jobs is standing up. Mhm.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. Yeah definitely. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a load of [00:14:55] people.

Riaz Sharif: It’s a, it’s a tiring thing standing up all day isn’t it.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of humans a lot of humans are standing up.

Riaz Sharif: Manual [00:15:00] labour.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Standing up for manual labour is yet another level.

Riaz Sharif: We’re sitting down. Yeah. We’re [00:15:05] sitting in a nice warm room sometimes. Or, you know, a cold room if it’s something. I [00:15:10] know we’re quite fortunate in terms of that.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about. So dentistry abroad.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. So that was, [00:15:15] that came out of um, that wasn’t expecting to go abroad. Um, I had a friend [00:15:20] who had graduated in the previous year and he was off in Budapest. Yeah. So he I reached out [00:15:25] to him saying, listen, I didn’t get into the UK system. What are my options? Where are you right now? And [00:15:30] how’s it going? Um, he was in Romania, actually. So then [00:15:35] I went to Romania. I met him. He showed me the ropes and was like, listen, this is the application process. See [00:15:40] how you get on. I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the communistic town. It seemed very right. I just didn’t, you [00:15:45] know, you go to an environment and you. It was in Cluj-Napoca, in Transylvania. Yeah. So I went there [00:15:50] for a little visit, trying to see how it all was. It just seemed very dark and gloomy. Yeah. And I was [00:15:55] like, I can’t spend seven years here. Yeah, this is not for me. Um, I’ve done my own research. I end [00:16:00] up in Budapest, in Hungary. So that was, um. That was different. I didn’t even know. [00:16:05]

Payman Langroudi: The wicked city.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, I didn’t know what it was. I didn’t know what it was about then until I actually went [00:16:10] there. So, you know, um, those, those six years over there were were [00:16:15] amazing. Actually, the first few years were horrible. Yeah. But, um. Yeah. Went over there, done the entrance exam, [00:16:20] got into it, and then the rest was very intense.

Payman Langroudi: The language barrier was was dentistry [00:16:25] in English. The teaching.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. Fortunately it was in English. But the you know, to even enter clinical [00:16:30] years, you had to learn Hungarian. So.

Payman Langroudi: They treat.

Riaz Sharif: Patients. So yeah. So they wouldn’t let the dental students [00:16:35] enter the hospitals unless you knew, you know, partially through the Hungarian. Yeah. So that was a big hurdle initially. And [00:16:40] obviously standing in front of examiners. Every exam was was a was a speaking exam. [00:16:45] So I’d walk into a room like this with like 6 or 7 clinical examiners in front of me, [00:16:50] and they’ll be demanding answers like, what is the answer to this question? What is this? What is this one wrong [00:16:55] answer? You’re out. You’re finished. That was another 20,000 USD the next year.

Payman Langroudi: That wasn’t Hungarian [00:17:00] though, was it? No, no, that was English.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, and I was. Yeah. So they wouldn’t be fearful of failing students. It [00:17:05] was a business operation, you know. Yeah, yeah. You’re the warrior who’s got to fight to the end. So again, it’s [00:17:10] so they.

Payman Langroudi: Push you back a year now you’ve got to pay for.

Riaz Sharif: Another year. Yeah. Yeah. So I had a few I had a couple of those chucked [00:17:15] in there. So that was, that was um that was unexpected. How were you.

Payman Langroudi: Paying for it all?

Riaz Sharif: By training. Yeah. [00:17:20] So I was actually, um, personal training people out there. So I went there, printed off some flyers, [00:17:25] chucked them around the university’s, the vet schools and economic schools of Budapest, dental schools, medical schools. [00:17:30] And I managed to managed to get a lot of clientele.

Payman Langroudi: Had you done that before? Over here? Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: So I’d done my level [00:17:35] three, um, or level four and.

Payman Langroudi: Got yourself customers that way.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah. So I was, [00:17:40] I was advertising on social media, so that got me a lot of people. Um, so that was good. It [00:17:45] helped me finance and get you paid.

Payman Langroudi: The whole.

Riaz Sharif: Course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Which was how much? Like ten, 20 [00:17:50] grand.

Riaz Sharif: It was expensive. Yeah. It was. You’re going into into a lot of money every year. You’re looking around [00:17:55] 10,000, 15,000 a year. So that was all private fees to [00:18:00] you. Wasn’t like taking loans out and stuff. So it was stressful.

Payman Langroudi: Massive achievement. It was stressful. Just a massive achievement. [00:18:05]

Riaz Sharif: Just adapting to the Hungarian culture. You know, speaking to local people, you know, you [00:18:10] know, getting used to the culture. It’s starting.

Payman Langroudi: Starting.

Riaz Sharif: Business.

Payman Langroudi: And doing dental school [00:18:15] in another country.

Riaz Sharif: And running between clinics and a gym, trying to train people and then go back to clinicals, [00:18:20] you know, trying to get my work in there and then run back to the gym again. So I’ll be, [00:18:25] I’ll be. My days were long compared to other students there. You know, who their families would come over and look [00:18:30] after them. And I was on my own, you know. No one knew anything about my background, who I was. I just did my thing. [00:18:35] But after 1 or 2 years, you settle down, you get used to a system. [00:18:40] So, um. Yeah, I was actually married at the time then. So married? Yeah. So my. Yeah. So [00:18:45] I met the person, um, in my previous university that sort [00:18:50] of led to other things. Got married and.

Payman Langroudi: Then your previous university in the.

Riaz Sharif: Uk. Yeah, yeah. In Birmingham. Yeah. So I [00:18:55] sort of tried to sustain that throughout that school. Um, that ended up in my fifth year being a [00:19:00] bit of a fail. So we got divorced. And also that person, David, who was my foster father, died. So [00:19:05] I went through a lot in that last year of, of dentistry. It was [00:19:10] actually the summer before I was supposed to graduate. Um, he died, I got divorced, you know, a lot of things were going [00:19:15] catastrophically wrong, to be honest. Um, and I ended up failing [00:19:20] my last exam before I graduated. Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All in the same.

Riaz Sharif: In the same. Yeah, [00:19:25] yeah. And, you know, he died of cancer. You know, he’s a he’s a lovely man. Two years, two weeks out from, you know, [00:19:30] his diagnosis. He was very late. And yeah, I couldn’t deal with his with what [00:19:35] happened. And it was very emotional for me because obviously he was the person who was my, [00:19:40] my figure who sort of guided me in what I needed him. So losing [00:19:45] him was hard. So obviously at this time you feel alone and you feel very alone. You know, you’re in this [00:19:50] huge country, you’ve failed. You know there’s no money in the bank. Everything’s going wrong. You know, you [00:19:55] hit dark moments and this is what you know, this is going back to what you’re saying again. How do you get out those dark moments [00:20:00] and everything I learned from my childhood was there’s always a plan. [00:20:05] You know, there’s always a way to to get out of those dark places, which is just finding [00:20:10] a solution, just, you know, keep don’t give up on it and just just collect your thoughts and [00:20:15] start again. And there’s always a way. You know, you just don’t give up on the [00:20:20] plan.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Riaz Sharif: Um, no, I mean, I do. It’s [00:20:25] a bit of a tricky one. No, I don’t know. I [00:20:30] believe in I believe in good energy. I believe in, you know, if you’re a good person, [00:20:35] that energy reciprocates around you and you’re reflective of people. But I don’t believe in in [00:20:40] in a higher being. To be honest, no I don’t. I mean, people say, you know, when when in [00:20:45] those dark moments, you, you you look up for a higher faith, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s easier to believe in God. [00:20:50] Yeah, sure. But if you. If you just don’t, you don’t. I mean, that’s that’s the problem. Yeah. [00:20:55] You know what I mean? Yeah. There’s no there’s no point pretending to if it isn’t there.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:21:00] It’s not been my my thing, to be honest, I never really I never led on that. Leant back on [00:21:05] that as a as an option to. But yeah. So obviously I failed. They wouldn’t let me back in. So what [00:21:10] did you do then. I had to collect my credits. They dismissed me from university in Budapest. So all those years, all that, all [00:21:15] that money went to, you know, had nothing to amount for it and got my credits [00:21:20] from my European credit system and then transferred it looked frantically for Frantically for options to salvage [00:21:25] what I lost. I managed to find a place in Slovakia, a small city [00:21:30] outside Bratislava. There was a medical school. They were taking transfer. Students went [00:21:35] there, sat the exam, passed it. They were listening. You can salvage this for four more years. Four [00:21:40] more? Yeah, four more years. Four. You know. Each year is going to cost you about 7,000 [00:21:45] USD again. And I was like, wow, this is this really worth my time [00:21:50] and effort right now? You know, I’m hitting my late 20s now, you know. What have I done? You [00:21:55] know, people around me are settling down, making a life. And I’m still [00:22:00] trying to make a professional career in dentistry. What for? You [00:22:05] know, just what is the reason you got to go back to the drawing board and realise. What am I doing this for [00:22:10] yourself? Your better future. Your betterment of your future. What is it all for? And I went there and [00:22:15] I started it. So it took me multiple years to complete the credits in different years. [00:22:20] Eventually I did do it in my fourth year. I spent four more years in Slovakia doing that. [00:22:25] So my Dental degree total.

Payman Langroudi: I had to learn Slovakia.

Riaz Sharif: I had to learn Slovakian this time. [00:22:30] So, you know, I’m custom in all these, uh, in all these Eastern European languages now. [00:22:35] So, um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been good.

Riaz Sharif: And eventually I graduated [00:22:40] in 2000, 2021.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you feel that day?

Riaz Sharif: Oh, yeah. Well, it was, uh, it [00:22:45] was it was during Covid, actually. So it wasn’t the best of moments, so. Oh, really? [00:22:50] But, um, yeah, I managed to go there, pick up my degree and, uh, yeah, it was it was a good moment. [00:22:55] I felt good, but obviously the next hurdle was coming back home. And that’s when, you know, I realised I. [00:23:00]

Payman Langroudi: Couldn’t go with, you.

Riaz Sharif: Know, no, no one went with me, I did it, I did it on my own, [00:23:05] you see what I mean? So I got the courage to get up and find these places, you know, travel on trains.

Payman Langroudi: No, I mean to graduation [00:23:10] day.

Riaz Sharif: No, no, it was again, it was on your on your own again, [00:23:15] which was, it wasn’t like this nice big ceremonies which, you know, I’d expect after all those years, but [00:23:20] Later on, you know, you sort of get the benefits, don’t you?

Payman Langroudi: What a [00:23:25] story, man.

Riaz Sharif: And I came back to the UK. Um, it’s actually hard for an overseas graduate to [00:23:30] get a placement in UK. Dft is not really easily accessible. So I couldn’t walk into my my [00:23:35] vocational training session with anyone or any place like that and finish it and continue. [00:23:40] But I was fortunate I found a mentorship at my dentist in Poole. Yeah. [00:23:45] Um, highly a great company. Recommend them highly. Um, so a good mentor there. [00:23:50] He he guided me a lot in my first year, and so did the company. But, um, [00:23:55] not doing the promo for them right now. But they’re great anyway. They’re amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? If you if you had [00:24:00] a great experience, why? It was.

Riaz Sharif: Good. Yeah. For overseas graduates or anyone, even from the UK who [00:24:05] did, who qualified over abroad, I’d highly recommend them. But yeah, I’d done. I just hit the floor running. To [00:24:10] be honest, when I came back I was like, I’m not messing around. Um, I’d done my postgraduate [00:24:15] degree diploma with Doctor in Aesthetic and Restorative restore dentistry started [00:24:20] to find my niche. What I liked doing in dentistry. Obviously started with NHS. Now predominantly private [00:24:25] now. So I know what I like to do. Obviously and obviously you realise what [00:24:30] what works for you in dentistry, what you’re passionate about and what you know, where you want to stay, your career. [00:24:35] So obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Um. And what is that?

Riaz Sharif: What is that. Yeah, that’s that was the next sort [00:24:40] of thing I thought. You have to realise yourself where you want to be in dentistry, isn’t it? I guess it’s. Yeah. [00:24:45] Um, branding yourself, you know, I didn’t know how to. I didn’t know where to even start with this. You know, you’re looking at all these social [00:24:50] media accounts of young dentists and all their before and after photos, and you’re thinking, wow, like, this is phenomenal work. How do I get how do I [00:24:55] get that following or that that you know what they’ve got. Yeah. But not in this [00:25:00] like copycat way. Yeah. But obviously I looked at I followed a [00:25:05] lot of dentists over the years growing up in dentistry. So I had my few idols out there who I liked, and [00:25:10] I learned from them, I guess. But, um, yeah, I started this year brand myself quite [00:25:15] a lot in hope to open my own my own practice in the next two years or so. Next year or two. So, [00:25:20] um, yeah, it’s a cliche, I think, that I’d like to break down for dentists. [00:25:25] I think it’s quite a fearful thing representing, you know, showcasing your work.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Riaz Sharif: I think it’s, [00:25:30] you know, you’ve done an amazing composite bonding work. You know, you’ve done the whole thing aligning it, you know, whitening, [00:25:35] whitening and a bit of composite bonding to touch up and also anything else, you know, you’re thinking, wow, this is [00:25:40] this is amazing. But is it worth my time to post it online and see who agrees [00:25:45] with what I’ve done or not? Yeah. And it’s it’s I think again, it’s a fear of being recognised [00:25:50] as a bad dentist or a good dentist or someone who does bad work or good work, but then at [00:25:55] the same time, I feel just do it for yourself. Just if you feel like, just be yourself with it and post [00:26:00] it and see what happens, you know?

Payman Langroudi: And yeah. Do you remember on Mini Smile Maker? We asked the question. [00:26:05] We asked the question, who’s got a dental account? Yeah. And out of the 30 delegates, sometimes like [00:26:10] 4 or 5 of them got a dental notice.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, you know what I think? I think [00:26:15] what’s going to going to happen is in ten years time, we’re going to look back at this period of like [00:26:20] a golden period for, for, for social, that [00:26:25] it might not be the same. You know, I remember I remember when AdWords came out, Google, [00:26:30] you know, it was so cheap. It was, but I just didn’t know how to use them. Yeah. You know, I tried [00:26:35] I did a few things and I remember going to a really cheap one, and then I just forgot about that and moved on to [00:26:40] my next thing. I think it’d be a bit like that. People will. People will regret.

Riaz Sharif: It, isn’t it? And it’s it [00:26:45] is social media driven. Now I feel like this world of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: But if you’re not in it, if you’re not doing [00:26:50] it, you’ll regret it.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s what I’m saying.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. I think the older generation of dentists who [00:26:55] are who are fixed in their ways, but they’re comfortable doing what they’re doing. But I feel like the younger generation [00:27:00] are jumping on this whole bandwagon of, of doing this sort of showcasing [00:27:05] before and after work and, and, you know, and that’s the that’s the point of sale, isn’t it? That [00:27:10] is it. And hopefully drawing new patients.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, I always think about like, why would someone [00:27:15] go to a dentist based on a social media profile? Yeah, sometimes you think, why would [00:27:20] you do that? Why won’t you just ask someone or something? Yeah, I think. But then. But then I touched down in Athens. [00:27:25] Yeah. Where do I find restaurants I want to go to? I go to TikTok.

Riaz Sharif: You want to know who the guy [00:27:30] or the or the woman is doing the best work in town, right? Like, you want to know who that person is. And obviously, [00:27:35] all you need to do is type in a username on social media, and then you find that good dentist locally, [00:27:40] or that person who’s good at what they’re doing, and it’s a CV. It’s an online CV, you know, available [00:27:45] to everyone, isn’t it? Especially patients who who are new to it. And they want to put their trust in someone. [00:27:50] And if they see that you’ve got an amazing amount of Google reviews that you’ve got showcased [00:27:55] on your social media platform or people, you know, people who are great with a bigger following, for example, [00:28:00] it all, it all says a lot of things for that person, doesn’t it? That dentist.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:28:05] would you say to people who say, I had someone here who was saying, listen, making a really good social [00:28:10] media profile? Yeah. And let’s face it, we’re talking about 4 or 5 different [00:28:15] platforms now. Yeah, now it could be.

Riaz Sharif: People using TikTok now making these silly videos. But actually [00:28:20] that’s that’s those TikToks.

Payman Langroudi: The platform, the platform right now where you’re going to get reach [00:28:25] into Tik Tik Tok all the way to X, [00:28:30] all the way to LinkedIn. Yeah, it’s a lot of work to get that right.

Riaz Sharif: It’s a lot of work. It’s a lot [00:28:35] of.

Payman Langroudi: Work to get that right. I’ve got a team of people here. It’s still a lot of work. Yeah, it’s a lot.

Riaz Sharif: Of time as well.

Payman Langroudi: To do it. [00:28:40] What do you think about the dentist who says you should spend that time learning? Yeah. [00:28:45] Spear. Uh, Endo. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, you know, because there’s a lot of time. [00:28:50] Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: It’s a lot of time investing. It’s a lot of time investing in doing that. Yeah. I think you need to learn, [00:28:55] do the courses, upskill and then, you know, implement or [00:29:00] implement the work. If it look if it works, it works. And you know patient’s happy and you’re happy, then represent [00:29:05] your work online. Don’t just post things without confidence, you know. But again it takes time to be confident. I [00:29:10] think as a young a young dentist, especially a few years out. But I don’t think don’t waste time on it, just do it. [00:29:15]

Payman Langroudi: How do you get over the fear of another dentist judging your work, or don’t you? You’re [00:29:20] not interested in what dentists think of your work.

Riaz Sharif: I think for me, in my mind, I’m still that that young guy in London, you [00:29:25] know, who’s who? I was never in my mind supposed to be a dentist or a dental professor. Yeah, and I’ve got this persona, [00:29:30] but I’m very confident now as a, as a as a young professional. Yeah, but I’ve still got that element of me that is still [00:29:35] not, not it’s not to say I’m not confident, but I’m, I’m very it’s kept it’s kept me very [00:29:40] humble in thinking, you know what? I’m not the best. I don’t, you know, I’m a very mediocre dentist in my mind. But [00:29:45] I know that I’m good and capable of doing good work. And if my patients leave the room happy with a smile, then [00:29:50] you know what? Why not showcase what I’ve done? Because they’ve left happy, and I’m gonna leave happy that day. [00:29:55] And I want to, I want to, I want to tell the people about this. I want to tell the people who follow my my platform. [00:30:00]

Payman Langroudi: Aren’t you scared that you say something wrong for the sake of the argument?

Riaz Sharif: Like to my patients [00:30:05] or.

Payman Langroudi: To on your.

Riaz Sharif: Social? No, I mean, I mean, yeah, there’s always, like you said, these, these big words in [00:30:10] dentistry. You mentioned the right word or, you know, the term, the dental terminologies that a lot of you know, [00:30:15] senior dentists will pick on. I worry about it even or even the stages that you’ve done or you missed that stage. [00:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: I worry about it in this board. I worry about it in this board. Just before you sat on that chair, there was a consultant [00:30:25] orthodontist sitting there. I don’t know what to say to her.

Riaz Sharif: I don’t get in Anchorage. [00:30:30] You know, I like to learn from people. Payman. So if I’m sitting opposite someone who is [00:30:35] advanced and somewhere I would like to be, it’s not that I want to be them. I would like to learn what who [00:30:40] they are and what they’ve done and what they’ve accomplished and take their steps and, you know, or their or their path, [00:30:45] because I believe that I can become like that one day. So it’s not I don’t feel intimidated [00:30:50] by someone like that. I like to learn.

Payman Langroudi: From the boxing helps. Right.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah. Go [00:30:55] back to that. Exactly. Watching your. Watching a huge opponent opposite you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a lot scarier.

Riaz Sharif: About to knock [00:31:00] you out cold. But maybe. But then again, you don’t. You don’t. If you program yourself not to be [00:31:05] scared or intimidated, then you’re not going to be. It’s all a false pretence of fear, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, it’s fear. [00:31:10] It doesn’t exist for me. It’s more just go forward and drive forward and that’s it and learn. [00:31:15] And this is where mentoring comes in. You know that young dentists should be mentored. Yeah. You know, either, you know, [00:31:20] instead of wasting your first year’s income or first few year’s income on materialistic things, [00:31:25] just invest it into your career, your skills, you know, pay for a lovely course that is two [00:31:30] days or even a year long diploma. Do it, you know? And like you said, I think the.

Payman Langroudi: First 4 or 5 years, you’ve got to look [00:31:35] at all of that as education.

Riaz Sharif: It’s just recycled back into your career, isn’t it? But they don’t teach you these things in dental school especially. [00:31:40] Overseas dental school. And it all comes down to communication to like, communicate with your patients. For me, [00:31:45] like I was Hungarian lecturers and teachers, they don’t know how to communicate. Yeah, [00:31:50] yeah. How? You know the dialogue. It’s a script, isn’t it? And you only learn that when you’re actually in practice, [00:31:55] you know, and.

Payman Langroudi: I think all the jobs that you did. Yeah. Massively helped [00:32:00] massively.

Riaz Sharif: You know, being in retail, being, you know, facing these high profile people who want to buy [00:32:05] Mercedes Benz. And I was just sitting there polishing the car, you know, and speaking to them. And, you know, [00:32:10] I believe also having doing examinations abroad and being intimidated, not intimidated, [00:32:15] but being feeling threatened by these highly advanced professors, you know, [00:32:20] of prosthodontics or endodontics and all throwing, you know, maxillofacial and throwing questions [00:32:25] at me just so I can pass my exams and go on to the next exam. That made me confident as a person, too, [00:32:30] I bet. So I can now sit in front of patients and and and be myself and be calm [00:32:35] and guide them through what I think is best for them, and hopefully they’ll leave happy with the options I give [00:32:40] them and the work that I provide to. So yeah, these are things that the skills that you learn along the way, aren’t they? [00:32:45] Yeah. But again, there’s no there’s no module for that in in schools or or out there. [00:32:50]

Payman Langroudi: So how many days are you working. Are you working only [00:32:55] in that one practice.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah at the moment I was working there for now. So I’m working about four days [00:33:00] a week there. Yeah. Um, yeah, it’s going good. I’ve sort of picked. I’m trying [00:33:05] to pick my patient case as well. You know, I do love these small makeover cases to say [00:33:10] so. Um, yeah. Stepping into I want to focus more on orthodontics. [00:33:15] And obviously occlusion is the main, the main thing, isn’t it? Why [00:33:20] do these fancy cases when things will fail?

Payman Langroudi: Um, what are you planning to do for your author from [00:33:25] study wise? What are you going to do?

Riaz Sharif: Well, in terms of the what to. [00:33:30]

Payman Langroudi: How to learn.

Riaz Sharif: Ortho, I’m still looking for I’ve done my research, but that’s my next sort [00:33:35] of thing. We touched lightly on it, on my next course, on his diploma.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: So, [00:33:40] you know, I know the the functional basis of orthodontics. And obviously this is important [00:33:45] for young dentists to know as well. You know, there’s no point in fitting crowns and doing these composite bond [00:33:50] cases or veneers. And it’s going to be chipped off or worn away in about two, three, [00:33:55] four years, isn’t it? And you know, if you don’t know, you know, correcting the alignment and buy it and it [00:34:00] all comes down to functional.

Payman Langroudi: So the thing is the thing is here that back in my day, when I was your age, if you [00:34:05] if your stated goal was to be a cosmetic dentist, you [00:34:10] had to learn veneer preps. Yeah. That was that was the most important thing [00:34:15] to learn. Back in my day, no one used to go for ortho because it was train tracks and [00:34:20] a line. Bleach bond didn’t exist until Tiff came along. And [00:34:25] he was.

Riaz Sharif: He pioneered it, didn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, he was one of my peers, so we used to talk about it. He used to say, [00:34:30] oh, these veneer cases you do. Actually, I remember having this conversation with Tiffany. He said, oh, well, you [00:34:35] can veneer the top teeth, but veneering the bottom teeth is much harder, so why not? Why not align those ones? [00:34:40]

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, but but now you can’t be a cosmetic dentist [00:34:45] and not understand quite a lot about aligning.

Riaz Sharif: It’s like pre ortho work [00:34:50] before you do the restorative work. Yeah. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: You gotta understand alignment to some extent. [00:34:55]

Riaz Sharif: Like you said before jumping into those fancy cases, you need to learn, like you said, before you start showcasing your [00:35:00] work you need to you need to know the functional bases of dentistry in terms of that.

Payman Langroudi: So this is my question on the aligning [00:35:05] front. Yeah, I would, I would, I would learn if it was me [00:35:10] I would try and learn more.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Did a ortho MSC [00:35:15] that they didn’t particularly like very much. Yeah. Um, or he didn’t think it helped him very [00:35:20] much, you know. But but then the next person will do one of those year long courses. Yeah. [00:35:25] Yeah, IAS courses maybe.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or there’s, there’s mentoring Millie [00:35:30] Millie’s doing a mentoring thing and Millie Morrison, do you know, um, or there’s a brilliant [00:35:35] Invisalign case by the two, um, brothers. Uh.

Riaz Sharif: There’s [00:35:40] a lot out there, isn’t it? Yeah, there’s a lot of options out there in terms of ortho courses, but yeah, it’s important [00:35:45] to grip the the idea of it. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, before you advance [00:35:50] on these big, complex cases and full mouth rehabilitation stuff and all this, you know, more advanced stuff. [00:35:55] But, yeah, it’s it’s a slow development, isn’t it? As a young dentist, you’ve got You got to take it slowly. [00:36:00] Yeah, yeah. And and see where it leads to. Really?

Payman Langroudi: Why do you like. Why [00:36:05] do you like aesthetic dentistry? What’s the thing about it?

Riaz Sharif: I think it’s the reward of seeing [00:36:10] the patient’s reaction and the feel that it gives you as a dentist, I think. I think that goes [00:36:15] you only feel that once you produce a good case and that patient, you know, you give the patient a mirror. You [00:36:20] all that time you’ve invested into that treatment planning and you know, all those months of work and [00:36:25] the final outcome that moment is for me is why I love dentistry. It’s for [00:36:30] me. It makes me feel, after all of the hard work and years of working as studying as dentist, it makes me feel [00:36:35] fulfilled and happy. And actually it puts all the financial incentive behind me and think, you know what? That person [00:36:40] that that reaction you get is, is unmatched for me. [00:36:45] And I’ve always been a person who loves to help people, you know, and it’s always I’ve always I still do. I’m a [00:36:50] very generous man. I like to help and provide for people and give the best advice I [00:36:55] can. You know what? It’s weird because that person could have been a very selfish little boy growing [00:37:00] up, you know, not that that little person in London. But then I’ve I’ve [00:37:05] done a whole U-turn and actually I want to get back and dentistry for me is my, my area right now for that. [00:37:10] And hopefully in the future I’ll have other options and, and areas I can help people [00:37:15] too, for sure. You know, and you know, I’ve a motivating and lifting people up myself [00:37:20] when they were younger. And yeah, hopefully I’ll get those platforms soon. But [00:37:25] yeah, hopefully the new year. We’ll see where it goes. You know it’d be nice.

Payman Langroudi: So have [00:37:30] you done anything to reach out to kids in foster care yet? Have you got round to that yet? [00:37:35]

Riaz Sharif: No, it’s more, to be honest, what it was Payman telling my story initially for me [00:37:40] was, um, was tough. It’s a very personal story. And I think, like I said to you, even stepping [00:37:45] onto, you know, stepping out and highlighting your story to people you don’t know [00:37:50] who actually turn around and say, well, that was that’s a very interesting story. Well done, mate. And, you [00:37:55] know, you you feel. You feel vulnerable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.

Riaz Sharif: You know, it’s not easy [00:38:00] to tell your own personal story, but I think your story. My story, actually, I’ve learned it. It [00:38:05] can. It can help a lot of people. And I didn’t realise that back in when you’re living it, you feel like [00:38:10] it’s horrible. It’s fearful, it’s traumatic, it’s tiring, and it’s it’s a very hard life [00:38:15] at the time and it’s emotionally sad. But I feel those if you collect it [00:38:20] all and you can, you know, it can actually help people. And again, it goes back to what I’m saying as well. I [00:38:25] can use it to help people somehow, but I will find a way to do it. Yeah. So [00:38:30] for me doing that lately has been a big thing, you know, um, and also, you know, even [00:38:35] the success I’ve had this year, I’ve won. Well, I was a finalist for like, the private dentistry awards and [00:38:40] the dental awards. So both of them was quite that was a big surprise for me. So two and [00:38:45] a half years out getting that award.

Payman Langroudi: What did you did you like see it and think [00:38:50] I’m going to apply for that.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, I saw it. I mean I’ve seen these awards going on for years in years in dentistry. It’s one of those [00:38:55] things that, you know, you think, wow, I wish I could do that. I wish I could turn up to event one day. I wish I could be part of that [00:39:00] crowd. And then again, you feel you don’t feel like you’re you don’t feel like you belong there. You [00:39:05] know, putting on a suit and actually just turning up there and being like, well, I’m part of this situation and I’ve [00:39:10] worked hard to get here. And if you don’t win, at least you’re recognised as something you know. And [00:39:15] it was nice to be recognised this year and I did. It was it was good. I felt like it lifted me. [00:39:20] My self esteem as a young dentist too. I think, you know, applying for awards is [00:39:25] important. You know, obviously you have to work hard to get those, don’t you? [00:39:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you know, there’s there’s a lot of people who don’t like awards as well.

Riaz Sharif: It’s not for everyone, [00:39:35] but it’s it’s, um, it was a surprise for me.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s lovely for you to be, like. To be getting [00:39:40] it because we hear the negative side of awards a lot. Yeah. People bang on about them. [00:39:45] Yeah. And then. And then you saying that it’s actually something that’s really helped you. It’s like a wonderful thing.

Riaz Sharif: Like you said, it can be a negative, [00:39:50] but people there are there is probably a cons about it, but I think the pros are, you [00:39:55] know, it does give someone confidence, confidence in thinking that, you know what, at least [00:40:00] you know you’re doing something good. At least, you know, take me through it.

Payman Langroudi: You saw the [00:40:05] award. You thought, I’m going to go for this. What did you do then? Read what? Yeah, read the category.

Riaz Sharif: The criteria.

Payman Langroudi: Read which [00:40:10] category?

Riaz Sharif: It was young. The best. Yeah. Young. The best young dentist award. Okay, so I thought, [00:40:15] you know what? Why not?

Payman Langroudi: So it said, tell us about your charity. Your this your that all [00:40:20] these different things go on. I don’t know what.

Riaz Sharif: It was more about. You know, what charity work you’ve done, your clinical cases. [00:40:25] Um, your story as well. Oh. You know, and I didn’t think I even hit the criteria [00:40:30] in half of them. You know, you think it’s nothing. It’s something you just. You just put it together and [00:40:35] send it out and see how it goes. Why not? You got nothing to lose. And that [00:40:40] was that was one surprise I had this year. So that was cool.

Payman Langroudi: But how long did you work on it?

Riaz Sharif: Uh, [00:40:45] it was a collection.

Payman Langroudi: Like a day or a week.

Riaz Sharif: It’s not like you worked on it for a long time. [00:40:50] You You’ve collected these things for a long time. They’re just buried anyway. Yeah. So, you know, your story [00:40:55] is going years back. You know, you collected this. You know, you got that that evidence from ten years ago. [00:41:00] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s a collection of different things that amount to that, that recognition. But yeah, [00:41:05] it’s the point is.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, there are some people who actually hire PR companies to do their awards. Do [00:41:10] they? Yeah. Um, not not young dentists, I don’t think, but, you know, practices.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:41:15] Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a whole industry of its own. Yeah, yeah. Which is fine, by the way. By the way, there’s [00:41:20] nothing in the rules that says you can’t do that. Yeah, but did you go to the party in the Grosvenor House? Yeah I [00:41:25] did.

Riaz Sharif: What a party it was. It was, it was nice. It was, it was good.

Payman Langroudi: I take my if Tim and Craig [00:41:30] are listening, I take my hat off. That that really did feel like the Oscars [00:41:35] of dentistry.

Riaz Sharif: Definitely something special, wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I used to laugh about that. They used to call it Oscars of Dentistry [00:41:40] years ago. And I think this is not the Oscars, right? This is not what the Oscars are like.

Riaz Sharif: Put on an outfit, [00:41:45] put the tuxedo.

Payman Langroudi: Feels like it. It’s like.

Riaz Sharif: How many people were there? Oh, God. It good. It was amazing, wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: It was [00:41:50] like a thousand people. I mean.

Riaz Sharif: I’ve never been to something like that before. So for me to turn up and be part of that, it was great. You know, it’s, [00:41:55] um, it was nice to be there, but. Yeah, but yeah, it’s again, it’s like a [00:42:00] marketing thing though, isn’t it? You know, and for young dentists, it is a cool little thing to add to your, your marketing [00:42:05] strategy to say.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but listen, I’m all I’m all for this. Yeah. And you [00:42:10] were saying before about it’s not just.

Riaz Sharif: About the awards, it’s about your own yourself.

Payman Langroudi: But you were saying before something I really like [00:42:15] to hear, um, some of our colleagues are interested in in words like marketing, but [00:42:20] but I like the idea of, uh, an associate [00:42:25] thinking of themselves as a mini business within the big business. [00:42:30] It’s something you told me and. And I really like that. I think it’s [00:42:35] the best training to become a principal is to act like you own the business and like. [00:42:40]

Riaz Sharif: You own it. I mean, there’s no reason. There’s no way to say that you can’t operate using your own branding [00:42:45] system within the corporate. Yeah. And and actually people come into my room now and they, they feel every person [00:42:50] who walks into my room, I’ve sort of made it very bespoke. So people come in, they can sit down, they can talk to me about [00:42:55] what they want, their problems. You know, what they’re concerned about, what they would like improving. And actually it’s a nice, comfortable setting. [00:43:00] You know, I’ve got my own logo, I’ve got my own sort of brand that I like to hopefully open as a practice in the [00:43:05] future. But you’ve got to start now, right? There’s no point. You’ve got to pave the way for it to happen. And [00:43:10] rather than, you know, just visualising it and things never falling, but like, like you said, [00:43:15] yeah, you you need to operate as a business within the business. And I think you’ve got to start with baby steps [00:43:20] and give the patient experience and practice with it. You know this from the moment they enter the room [00:43:25] to when they leave with that smile that they wanted. And that’s what I love doing.

Payman Langroudi: You find it frustrating, [00:43:30] though, that, you know, like especially in a corporate where you might want, I don’t [00:43:35] know, whatever picture on the wall or whatever. Yeah. Music playing and it’s [00:43:40] a corporate and you can’t do that. Does that frustrate.

Riaz Sharif: The hell out of my room is a bit different. So I’ve sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, [00:43:45] I mean, I mean, yeah, hands down to my dentist. It’s been running into my room. It’s very sort [00:43:50] of just. You wouldn’t think that you’re in the, you know, the my dentist corp, you know, not not not I’m trying [00:43:55] to overtake it, but but it’s but it’s it’s people come in all my patients [00:44:00] every day. Just compliment it. They’re like this feels very relaxed and it’s a nice setting and. Yeah. Go [00:44:05] on. What do you do? What do you.

Payman Langroudi: Do? What do you do? Spill the beans.

Riaz Sharif: Well, you know, I put my mirrors up. I put my little you know, [00:44:10] I’ve done this and I put the lovely comfortable leather chairs out, and it’s really. Yeah. It’s nice. You [00:44:15] know, I put it’s very nice. It’s comfortable, you know, it’s people. Yeah. It’s [00:44:20] good.

Payman Langroudi: The brand police are going to be on you soon. Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah I know right. No. Yeah. No. [00:44:25] So as long as you generate money for them right. It’s all good. They’ll be happy till the end. So it’s all right [00:44:30] now. Eventually I do want to make, you know, move out next year and get my own sort of either a Scott practice [00:44:35] or buy something and then go.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no hurry, though. But, you know, you like.

Riaz Sharif: Like like I said, I’m [00:44:40] not I’m not in a rush. So I’m trying to still upskill.

Payman Langroudi: Have to be next year. I [00:44:45] would say don’t forget things like working capital. Yeah, the amount of money you need to just [00:44:50] keep alive in a squat practice a whole year of money. And that’s money, you know, that [00:44:55] costs. Um, so don’t don’t. I wouldn’t rush in. Yeah, yeah. And this, you know, you might [00:45:00] think you spent a bit longer getting to become a dentist than than than how many years was it in total? [00:45:05] So seven.

Riaz Sharif: Seven plus it was like ten. Yeah, it was a lot of years. It was probably.

Payman Langroudi: But. But you’re [00:45:10] still. You’re young man.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you? 34 now. But you can sit on your hands. [00:45:15] Sit on your hands for another three years. Do nothing. Yeah. And you’ll still be 37. It’s nothing.

Riaz Sharif: Like I said, it’s it’s [00:45:20] it’s this constant wanting to.

Payman Langroudi: Go for it, man. Go for it. But I’m just saying don’t feel that [00:45:25] because you spent a bit longer becoming a dentist, you’re now behind. Which is like ridiculous, [00:45:30] ridiculous notions of childhood. When you’re young, you think, oh, I want to be the first whatever [00:45:35] to do whatever. There’s no there’s no prize for being first in this situation. Yeah. [00:45:40]

Riaz Sharif: How long was it until you open your own company. Was it a while because you were.

Payman Langroudi: You were 28. [00:45:45] I was 28. Were you when you started enlightened?

Riaz Sharif: Was that soon after you were a dentist or five years after? [00:45:50] Five years after? Yeah. Good. That’s a big jump, wasn’t it, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: Huge. Huge and terrible. Terrible. [00:45:55] First 5 or 6 years.

Riaz Sharif: So was it a struggle to sort of get your feet on the ground?

Payman Langroudi: Losing [00:46:00] loads of money, begging and borrowing.

Riaz Sharif: A lot of market competitors. Was it I guess in was it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:46:05] expensive. It’s expensive. Trying to do what we did was expensive. Um, [00:46:10] we didn’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Riaz Sharif: You can only do it, you know, once you’re in it, right? I don’t know what you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Doing [00:46:15] at all. Yeah. Um, but, you know, businesses do business. Real businesses take four [00:46:20] years to to not all, but, you know, generally take 3 or 4 years to go into profit. [00:46:25] Yeah. Dental businesses tend to go quicker. Yeah. But I’m still saying there is still a year of pain, [00:46:30] massive pain that you have to put up with if you’re going to do a squat practice. Yeah. And that pain can be [00:46:35] listen, either your squat practice ain’t going to be as beautiful as you thought it would be, or [00:46:40] because you because you haven’t got the money to make it that, or you make it as beautiful as you thought it was going to be. And [00:46:45] now you can only you’ve only got runway for three months before you’re going to go bust. Which does not make sense. [00:46:50] Right. You know, like.

Riaz Sharif: Don’t, don’t, don’t run before you can walk.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:46:55] yeah yeah. But listen man.

Riaz Sharif: You got to.

Payman Langroudi: Take it slowly. I’ve got a friend. He [00:47:00] qualified and opened his practice. There’s a guy coming on this podcast soon who’s in [00:47:05] the fourth year of dental school, and he owns a practice that’s amazing. [00:47:10] Um, and, you know, he had his own business before going to dental school and all of this. That would be an interesting [00:47:15] one. But but it’s not a competition. It’s not.

Riaz Sharif: It’s you got to go at your own pace, haven’t you? You know, like you said, you’re [00:47:20] only competing against yourself and you know, it’s your own. It’s your own way, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s [00:47:25] your own. It’s your own route. Just take it as slow as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the [00:47:30] darker part. I think you’ve had some dark parts.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, we’ve we’ve touched on a few places.

Payman Langroudi: The mistakes. [00:47:35] We like to talk about mistakes. Yeah. On this pod. Okay. So we can learn from each from each other’s mistakes. Yeah, [00:47:40] absolutely. What comes to mind when I say clinical mistakes? What have you gotten up to?

Riaz Sharif: I think we’ve [00:47:45] all we’re all, um, you know, we’re all prone to make mistakes. When we first entered the dental scene, [00:47:50] especially when we come to dental school. We’re sitting there with our first few patients the first few weeks or months. Um, [00:47:55] mine. I’ve had a few. You know, one of them that comes to mind would be, for [00:48:00] example, you know, restoring a back teeth molar. You know, I think I had one situation [00:48:05] where, you know, I remember I was very worried about what it all happened. You know, you’re polishing [00:48:10] the back tooth with a flexi disc. You know who does that now? You know, it’s not something that, you know when [00:48:15] you’re rushing and you’re panicking as a.

Payman Langroudi: Distal of the seventh. Yeah, yeah. You start.

Riaz Sharif: You [00:48:20] cut something. Yeah. I cut the buckle cheek and obviously, you know, I think, wow, what [00:48:25] a silly mistake. You got that cold chill run down your back and you start to freeze up. Yeah, well, [00:48:30] it’s 7 p.m. on a Tuesday night, and there’s no other clinicians. One clinician around somewhere. [00:48:35] Was there a lot of blood? Yeah, there was blood. The buccal fat was was cheek fat was [00:48:40] coming out and my nurse was staring at me like, what? She doesn’t know what to do. And I’m like, well, this is not [00:48:45] what they taught me in dental school to figure out, you know? What did you do? The patients, you know, [00:48:50] you need to obviously, this is where you learn, isn’t it? How to communicate and how to keep yourself and the patient [00:48:55] relaxed. So obviously, luckily, I had a dentist on site. He came in [00:49:00] and he managed to help me calm and suture it, sutured the cheek up and obviously [00:49:05] notify the patient what’s happened. You know, I’m I’m startled and alarmed and I’m thinking, well, I’m going [00:49:10] to get into huge complaint situation in the next few days. And, you know, the way I handled it and [00:49:15] the way he taught me to handle it in that moment was essential. You know, we we calmed the patient down. [00:49:20] There was all that post advice about what to do in case that happens. And actually that defused [00:49:25] the whole situation in the end. But I learned a lot. Is this silly stuff like that? You know, it’s not silly. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know, do you know, you know, she’s she’s Basil Mizrahi’s [00:49:35] associate, said that’s the top practice in London, right? Yeah. And she [00:49:40] made the exact same mistake. Really? So she was polishing.

Riaz Sharif: The only one.

Payman Langroudi: Polishing the back of a buckle [00:49:45] of a seven.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. You think you think it’s the best option at the time? You think you grab it quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine. [00:49:50] Imagine how like you’re good. You’re being. Yeah. By trying to polish the [00:49:55] distal side of a do on a seven.

Riaz Sharif: Who does that though. I wouldn’t, [00:50:00] I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t think twice about doing that right now. You know, it’s the last thing I’m really grabbing in the surgery. [00:50:05] But you know, you look back.

Payman Langroudi: And I like that one. And it’s an important one. And everyone who does Polish tobacco a [00:50:10] seven should pay attention to that. We’ve all learned from that. Yeah, but it went well. Yeah. [00:50:15] As in the patient took it well.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You got one where the patient took it badly. Uh, yeah. [00:50:20]

Riaz Sharif: I’ve dropped the wrong. I’ve grabbed a faucet and nearly taken out the wrong tooth because I read the clinical notes wrong. So that was [00:50:25] a that was that could say that again. I’ve read the clinical notes wrong. Yeah. And I’ve grabbed the forceps and I’m about to take [00:50:30] out the wrong tooth and didn’t. And you know, the patient noticed. No luck. Yeah. No. I luckily thought [00:50:35] twice about the situation and obviously you know, but then obviously now that’s what I do. It’s helped me in my modern day dentistry [00:50:40] too. So, you know, double or triple clarifying what I’m doing, you know, is it a right tooth? Is it a right, [00:50:45] you know, restoration? Is it the right material doing the right thing? And yeah, I [00:50:50] stopped at the moment and I did I did get worried.

Payman Langroudi: And obviously the whole left right thing, [00:50:55] the whole left right thing must happen hundreds of times a day in the world. You know, it depends. [00:51:00] Somewhere, somewhere in the world right now, 100 people have done the left. Right.

Riaz Sharif: I think it depends on your mind. As dentists, we [00:51:05] always expect to be like on the ball and sharp. But then we have our own issues going on in our life, right? [00:51:10] Our home life, our personal life, the way we feel. We might not feel optimal that day, and it does affect [00:51:15] the way we operate in clinic, you know, in that setting. So, you know, obviously we have to [00:51:20] be on the ball. We, you know, we’ve got someone’s health in our hands. So it’s hard [00:51:25] some days. But you need to be alert. And you also you learn from lessons don’t you. So yeah, [00:51:30] that was another one. But there’s been a few.

Payman Langroudi: Anything would go badly. That that won’t go badly. [00:51:35] Did the patient notice?

Riaz Sharif: And the patient did notice that I gave the anaesthesia in the wrong, in the wrong tooth for.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:51:40] wrong.

Riaz Sharif: Wrong. But they only stopped. They they actually stopped me after I, after I [00:51:45] stopped myself. And I was like, excuse me? Like, why did you give the anaesthesia over there? Like, so.

Payman Langroudi: What did you [00:51:50] say then.

Riaz Sharif: I said to him, you know what? I said, I’m sorry. Um, I read, I read the clinical notes incorrectly. Um, [00:51:55] I apologise for that. You will feel numb for a few hours on that side. Also, would you [00:52:00] like to continue or today? Or would you like to, um. Are you happy for me to, you know. Yeah, [00:52:05] exactly. And obviously putting it into that sort of speech and that calmness as well and that [00:52:10] the options are in place. You know, normally they’re going to be like, you know what, it’s okay. Just go ahead [00:52:15] and do what you had to do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So is that how it went.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. And actually it was okay. [00:52:20] And I feel like that that’s also a good way of diffusing a lot of possible complaints. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, do I accept [00:52:25] that that went well as well.

Riaz Sharif: That went.

Payman Langroudi: Well. What about one that went badly.

Riaz Sharif: Went really badly. [00:52:30] Oh there was one really badly.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have [00:52:35] to be like sometimes. It’s not the error. That’s the bad error. The worst. The reaction.

Riaz Sharif: That’s the the worst [00:52:40] one was probably a perforated root canal.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve done that.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. And you [00:52:45] know, I’ve, I it was a you know, it was a basic it was a molar upper left six. [00:52:50] Um, first few canals weren’t okay. I think one of them perforated straight into [00:52:55] the bone. Obviously you’re looking at the post-operative radiograph.

Payman Langroudi: Look good on the.

Riaz Sharif: X-ray, and you’re thinking, well, you know, you’re thinking [00:53:00] you’re feeling proud of yourself. You know. You know, everything went great. Until then, you’re looking at it and [00:53:05] thinking the nurse is downstairs generating the x ray. You think you’re right? Cool. You know, we’re gonna we’re gonna [00:53:10] complete this plan right now. The patient’s happy, you know, they’re they’re up in their chair. You’re [00:53:15] about to, you know, finish off with a crown or a or a final restoration and it comes [00:53:20] out that it’s gone straight into the bone.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough.

Riaz Sharif: And I’m sitting there. My heart’s beating [00:53:25] ten times more than it should do, you know. And I’m. And I got to give the news to the patient [00:53:30] about this perforation.

Payman Langroudi: Probably lost his teeth.

Riaz Sharif: And exactly. And that’s actually the opposite [00:53:35] of what they actually came in for, you know. And you have to break the news and say, listen, this is a it’s an [00:53:40] inconvenience. But what has happened shouldn’t have happened. But it either. The options are this, this, [00:53:45] this.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s really interesting because we just jump to blame all [00:53:50] the time here. Like it’s in our nature to jump to blame. So if you I’ve had a situation [00:53:55] where in that situation the it happened to me in dental [00:54:00] school that the teacher just came over and said to the patient, sorry, this tooth [00:54:05] wasn’t saveable. Yeah. Yeah. End of that was the end of the patient. And the patient went, yeah, [00:54:10] there it is. Yeah, yeah. But but you know, that tooth wasn’t saveable. Yeah. By me [00:54:15] kind of question. Yeah. And it was my fault. Is this whole different story to that tooth [00:54:20] wasn’t saveable. Yeah, but but that tooth wasn’t saveable. Yeah. In this room, I.

Riaz Sharif: Think I think [00:54:25] I think it’s also what you what you program in a programming a patient before you even do the procedure. So you’re saying, [00:54:30] like you said to them, that that tooth is it could be saved and it could be saved with a root canal. And also [00:54:35] there’s an option that, you know, is extraction. And obviously with the perforated canal now, [00:54:40] you know, it looks like.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the thing is though, the most important thing [00:54:45] they do drum it into us, but it’s worth repeating. The most important thing is to be honest [00:54:50] in that situation, not only from that’s what the patient deserves, but but also [00:54:55] if it goes tits up. Yeah, dishonesty in that situation is the one that really kills. [00:55:00]

Riaz Sharif: They can turn around and say to you, you didn’t say that. You lied.

Payman Langroudi: I mean that that would cause [00:55:05] a real situation.

Riaz Sharif: That will lead to an official complaint and obviously sleepless nights [00:55:10] and all the rest of it.

Payman Langroudi: But also the complaint being upheld. Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s my point.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s [00:55:15] about being honest with your faults as well and then taking responsibility isn’t it as well. You know you hope [00:55:20] that they don’t continue these faults. You know you hope to learn from them if you you know if you can. But mostly [00:55:25] you know, if you’re if you’re on the ball, you do.

Payman Langroudi: So what happened in this case?

Riaz Sharif: Um, I referred him to a specialist. We [00:55:30] got a root canal specialist at work in our. In our practice, fortunately. So I said to him, you know, we’ll [00:55:35] get you booked in for a consultation with him to review the fault. Yeah. Um, and see what [00:55:40] he recommends. And obviously, you briefed them that it could obviously lead to an extraction, the worst case scenario. Or [00:55:45] it could be that he takes it out. And what happened? He actually corrected it. So. Yeah. Who [00:55:50] paid? Uh, I paid.

Payman Langroudi: You paid? Yeah.

Riaz Sharif: I’ll compensate the paid, but but that’s my responsibility, [00:55:55] you know, like, you know, if I, if I see my my faults, you take, you step up and [00:56:00] you take responsibility, don’t you? Well done, man. But, um, I’m not going to put the blame on anyone else, even [00:56:05] even outside of dentistry. If I make a problem outside of my in my life, I’ll step up and take the blame and fix it. [00:56:10] And that’s that’s part of being responsible person, isn’t it? I love that. Yeah. [00:56:15]

Payman Langroudi: What if we fast forwarded five years from [00:56:20] today? Yeah. Where do you see yourself? Both. Both professionally and, [00:56:25] you know, domestically. What are you looking for five years from today?

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [00:56:30] It’s. Yeah. Um, I see myself in a more professional, [00:56:35] you know, my skills will be a lot more higher. So I [00:56:40] like to upskill more. And obviously, basically, I don’t know, [00:56:45] narrowing on what I like to do more. So pick, you know, pick the niche of dentistry that I like to do, but [00:56:50] obviously really become an expert in it and deliver with 1,000% confidence [00:56:55] that sort of work. But, you know, like you said, in dentistry, you want to you want to be an all rounder. You need to [00:57:00] be a good GDP, don’t you? You need to know your basics. And obviously, you [00:57:05] know, you want to be a better dentist year by year, don’t you? You know, you don’t want to be stagnant and just [00:57:10] sitting around. You want to be better and better even in, you know, in your in your career, life and and everything [00:57:15] else. But yeah, business wise, I like to have my own practice. Or if it was to do that or even, [00:57:20] like I said to you, this platform where I can not teach, but probably [00:57:25] create a course to say that can [00:57:30] encourage or even teach people how to communicate initially in their first few [00:57:35] years and basically take take my own sort of experiences [00:57:40] and then, you know, teach it on a day, day course or something like that and [00:57:45] see where that leads to see, you know, a little steps. I’m not going to sit there and create a huge ten day [00:57:50] plan, you know, in terms of teaching. But I like to do that. I believe that I got I believe I’m [00:57:55] good at speaking and I got a lot to give to people. So I like to have that platform soon open up to me [00:58:00] if I don’t create myself. So yeah, from a motivational aspect, I [00:58:05] like that. Yeah. And I think, you know, vulnerable young dentists are vulnerable. You [00:58:10] know, they’re worried because we all were I was a few years ago, I didn’t know what to do. But having [00:58:15] someone who can, you know, who can relate to who’s been through it, [00:58:20] Um, I believe it’s good.

Payman Langroudi: I think the anxiety level in young dentists is higher than it [00:58:25] was in our day. Yeah it is. They’ve drummed it into you guys that you’re going to get sued.

Riaz Sharif: It’s [00:58:30] worrying. And I think, you know, you need to learn mechanisms to to speak to people [00:58:35] calmly to to talk to yourself calmly to, to relax your mind, you know, to also encourage [00:58:40] yourself to if you do a fault, don’t worry about it. There’s always options to get better and not take [00:58:45] it to heart. And all this comes down to motivational speaking and I would love [00:58:50] to get into that. Obviously I’d like to develop it as well in the next five years too, so I’m not that’s [00:58:55] what I that’s what I aim to do. Um, you know, as well as continuing dentistry too. [00:59:00]

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. And you’re sort of you’ve been involved in [00:59:05] gyms and all sorts of. Yeah. From your sort of dream practice. [00:59:10] What would that look like?

Riaz Sharif: It would be, yeah. It’s like, yeah, fancy, you [00:59:15] know, nice, beautiful environment. People come in and they feel it’s a luxury place, you know, [00:59:20] and they feel at home in it. They don’t feel intimidated by these big white walls. And this smell, the smell of the [00:59:25] practice. I want it to be, you know, welcoming, calm, peaceful and homely and [00:59:30] also enjoyable. So I think dentistry should be enjoyable. Not for the dentist also, but for the [00:59:35] patient. You know, they need to come in and have that fun talk with.

Payman Langroudi: I get you, I get you. Yeah. But what was [00:59:40] the last time you had any dental treatment?

Riaz Sharif: Uh, not not long ago. Probably a few years ago. [00:59:45]

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyable is a big word.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, because I didn’t enjoy it. I remember not enjoyable. I don’t remember ever walking [00:59:50] into a practice or. Or I was actually in hospital last week, and I was feared, I feared, I feared every moment of it. You [00:59:55] know, I had a burst appendix last week. I’m sorry. So yeah, I remember sitting in that hospital fearing for my [01:00:00] life, you know, in a dark room when it all goes dark and you think, wow, this is nothing [01:00:05] really else matters other than me sitting in this cold ward right now with my, you know, burst appendix. And he got sepsis. [01:00:10] I’m sorry. So, you know, it’s it’s it’s different, isn’t it? In a dental [01:00:15] practice, it can be enjoyable. And I believe that believe that, you know, more.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyable is a big word [01:00:20] that I get you because it’s not enjoyable. So make as enjoyable as possible.

Riaz Sharif: What I think [01:00:25] is what also, when you introduce someone to the idea of what their teeth could be improved by. I think that’s what’s [01:00:30] enjoyable to patients.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, that’s that’s enjoyable.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what you meant.

Riaz Sharif: That’s what I like to see when [01:00:35] a patient. The enthusiasm of the patient, because they reflected from my charisma and my enthusiasm. [01:00:40] Like if I can, you know, I believe I like to give patients high expectations because I think [01:00:45] you’ve got to believe in yourself, haven’t you? As a young dentist, also as a as a professional [01:00:50] senior dentist, you need to believe in your ability.

Payman Langroudi: Confidence is important.

Riaz Sharif: You can’t sit there and think, oh, this might this is [01:00:55] what I think I can do, or this is what I believe I can achieve by by doing this for your smile. But I will do that. [01:01:00] And this is what I want you to feel when you have that smile. Yeah. You know, and I think.

Payman Langroudi: The only, the only thing to, [01:01:05] to worry about is.

Riaz Sharif: It’s not, you know, it’s not arrogance.

Payman Langroudi: It’s no, no, no, you need you need to worry [01:01:10] about the bits that you don’t know. You don’t know. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. They [01:01:15] tend to creep up on you in throughout career.

Riaz Sharif: Learning curves?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:01:20] I’d say even I mean, I’d say it takes a good ten years [01:01:25] before before those you realise those things. I wasn’t even a dentist for ten years. But [01:01:30] I think it does take ten years. Yeah. Even ten years is not a long time. You know, like a ten year [01:01:35] qualified dentist is 33.

Riaz Sharif: Normally it’s like seeing your cases like 4 or 5 years, ten [01:01:40] years.

Payman Langroudi: Later.

Riaz Sharif: And seeing if they’re working still see if they’re functional, still see if they haven’t broken to pieces, [01:01:45] you know, and actually that is.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Riaz Sharif: That’s the turning point of your, you know, where you would upskill [01:01:50] even further, where you need to, where do you need to work on. And I think some, you know, if you’re if you’re that character [01:01:55] who wants to learn more and is and is able to look at their mistakes. Yeah. Then you will look at that. [01:02:00] Hopefully, you know, successful or not successful case and be like, okay, cool. 510 years [01:02:05] later I need to improve on that. That’s what I need to do to become a better dentist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And listen, I think what you’ve got [01:02:10] is a really lovely combination, right. Of like, you know, Confidence. Discipline. [01:02:15] Fearing. Facing your fears. Yeah. Yeah. Determination. [01:02:20] All of you packaged that into a course. Like a thing that people can learn from. Yeah. [01:02:25] Amazing, man. Amazing. I would, I would, I would link it to some aspect of dentistry. [01:02:30]

Riaz Sharif: Of course. I’ve been told is that it’s how to sort of plan and chapter the [01:02:35] story, you know, how to express it and how to talk about it. And, you know, for me to come out of my [01:02:40] shell in the last few months about it, it’s just been huge. You know, I told Dentistry Dentistry magazine UK [01:02:45] about it and they published the article. That was a big thing for me, because obviously that gets read by a lot of people. [01:02:50] And I don’t know, you know, I’ve done a podcast with Andy Acton, so that was the first time I actually spoke [01:02:55] about these sort of topics in a vulnerable state. I was like, okay, cool. That was big [01:03:00] for me too. One of my favourite is sitting in front of you. It’s a privilege, you know, you [01:03:05] know, and talking like this to you about it. It’s it’ll be watched by your viewers and I’m [01:03:10] in a vulnerable state still, but I’m getting confident talking about it and that’s good. And hopefully the future. Like [01:03:15] you said, I like to, you know, sort of plan it in a nice way and help it help people with [01:03:20] it because it’s it’s a story that I believe is is different. Yeah. [01:03:25] And it can go somewhere. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well I hope the story keeps going forward. Thank you. [01:03:30] Really well. And I’d love to see you again in, you know, whenever, whenever you’re next up for coming.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. [01:03:35] Yeah. Hopefully five years time will pop in again even sooner.

Payman Langroudi: Even sooner than that.

Riaz Sharif: Have a little chat again. [01:03:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um, we we end it on the usual. Fantasy [01:03:45] dinner party. Okay. Three guests. Dead or alive.

Riaz Sharif: Dead or [01:03:50] alive? Three guests. Okay. Who’s going to be sitting on that table with me? Who? Who [01:03:55] will be at the table with me?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Who do you want?

Riaz Sharif: Three people, dead or alive. First of [01:04:00] all, I’d like to see, uh, probably Bob Marley. Um, you [01:04:05] know, for me, growing up, his music was a big thing for me. I lived, I lived with a [01:04:10] Jamaican lady. She was born in that house. All I heard was reggae music. And it’s been embedded [01:04:15] in me since a young man. Some young little boy. The food, the culture, the relaxing. [01:04:20] Sort of, you know, his persona as a man. You know, I read his stories, [01:04:25] um, and, yeah, he. If I ever sat down with him, I’d like to talk to him about his life and, [01:04:30] you know, learn from him, maybe from what he he went through. Because he went through a lot, didn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: How many houses [01:04:35] in total did you live in?

Riaz Sharif: Me and probably around. God, I don’t know, multiple. [01:04:40] Probably about 6 or 7. Easily. Even more.

Payman Langroudi: And what [01:04:45] are their things about different families? That. Are they each one totally different or are [01:04:50] there types of families?

Riaz Sharif: That’s a very good question. I think when you go to different houses, right. Most [01:04:55] of them are foster mothers. So they’ve got their own children. Yeah. So you’re in a house with their [01:05:00] own children, but also with other multiple foster kids? Yeah. And you’re and you’re you’re [01:05:05] you’re you’re expected to integrate into the house with the with the mother. The father, [01:05:10] what you call the mother and father, and also their children. But you know that there’s there’s there’s something in that house [01:05:15] that you don’t feel connected because of course, you know, but, you know, there’s and I [01:05:20] don’t remember ever forming a very, very, very strong bond with any of them. You know, sometimes I wanted [01:05:25] to leave and sometimes I would run away. And, you know, there’s been 1 or 2 families [01:05:30] that I’ve spent a long time with, unfortunately, that broke down. But, you know, it’s [01:05:35] it’s it’s different.

Payman Langroudi: Outside of you when you look at these families where you’re looking at the [01:05:40] mother’s relationship with the children, do you see loads of like, is every single one dysfunctional [01:05:45] in its own way, or are there groups like you say, are these are.

Riaz Sharif: I think, [01:05:50] I think, I think because they’re not there. The mother isn’t. You’re not there’s no biological connection [01:05:55] between you and the mother. You’re they’re not they’re lacking a connection with [01:06:00] you as a as a foster kid.

Payman Langroudi: But, I mean, with their own children.

Riaz Sharif: Oh, did you see a difference? Yeah, I remember [01:06:05] feeling even I don’t remember vividly what it what it was. But I remember I remember feeling that there’s a big difference here. They [01:06:10] care about them more. And this is where it goes back to right at the beginning of our podcast, where it’s about love and attachment and feeling [01:06:15] different and separated.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But yeah, but when you look at that mother with her children, [01:06:20] it’s very different. You look at the next mother with her children. Oh yeah. Yeah. Do you see differences?

Riaz Sharif: There’s a pattern. [01:06:25] There’s a pattern. Go on, go on. It’s it’s the it’s the mother mother connection to their [01:06:30] offspring. It’s very biological. It’s very connected. Yeah, but you feel like an outcast. Yeah. [01:06:35] You do? Yeah. And you feel like you don’t feel like you belong there, you know? And obviously. [01:06:40]

Payman Langroudi: Even where the guy was your mentor.

Riaz Sharif: This is. This is why. This is why I’m always curious about whenever [01:06:45] I see, like, a, you know, a mother and a daughter, a mother and a son. And obviously they’re like their role model. [01:06:50] They’re they’re driving and pushing their daughter or son to become someone their, their best friend, you know, in [01:06:55] some cases, you know, and but that they’ve got that setting, that family setting that I believe that I like to understand, [01:07:00] uh, or would have liked to have understood. Now, now I’m okay. Now I’ve grown up and [01:07:05] I’ve overcome that. But back then I missed it, I wanted it, I craved it, and are you. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Still looking for your own mother?

Riaz Sharif: Yeah, I am, yeah, I am. This is [01:07:15] this goes back to our question. Who else will be on that table? Yeah. My birth mother’s mother. Oh [01:07:20] of course. Yeah. And I know I don’t know where she is, but, [01:07:25] uh.

Payman Langroudi: How did you if you if if you were sitting in front of her now, [01:07:30] what would you say?

Riaz Sharif: I just want to ask her if she’s proud of me. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Of course [01:07:35] she is.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s complicated because, you know, it makes me emotional. But I [01:07:40] like to make her proud. Whoever she was, you know, she put me on this earth.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:07:45] beautiful.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. And it’s, you know, whether she’s proud or happy or she’s, you know, whatever she is, [01:07:50] how she feels looking at me on that table, I just like to look at her and be like, mum, you know, I hope [01:07:55] you’re well.

Payman Langroudi: I love that.

Riaz Sharif: I love you.

Payman Langroudi: Well, could have been anything right. But you’ve [01:08:00] come on. Come to that.

Riaz Sharif: Yeah. It’s weird because you can’t, you know, you, you know, get [01:08:05] emotional, but you form a connection with somebody you don’t even know. Yeah. And it’s unusual. And [01:08:10] that’s that’s the unusual part of being a human. You don’t know. You know, some emotions are weird, aren’t they? You don’t [01:08:15] know. You can’t express them or explain them. But, yeah, she was on that table. [01:08:20] I just want to be like, mum, I hope you’re well. Um. I’ve done good. Well, [01:08:25] yeah. Uh. Third person. Yeah. Uh, keep me on [01:08:30] my mind. Right again. Oh, it’s a mosque.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Riaz Sharif: Uh, CEO of SpaceX [01:08:35] and Tesla. Yeah. He’s, uh, people like him inspire me because they’re. They’re visionaries [01:08:40] that believe he’s extraordinary. Man. He’s a very.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you want to say about him. He is extraordinary.

Riaz Sharif: He’s [01:08:45] a very ordinary man. I don’t yeah, he has a vision and he goes for it. And he makes he makes it. He comes to life. [01:08:50] Yeah. And this is, you know, I don’t believe all my ideas come to life, but I’m the sort of guy that if I have an idea [01:08:55] or I want to do something, I set my mind to it. I want it to come to life. I don’t want to sit there and put it to stone [01:09:00] and it will never happen. And so, like you said, in five years, I want my life to be very different. I want it to [01:09:05] be very stable, happy. I want to help people around me. I want to be on a platform where I can help people on [01:09:10] a bigger scale, you know? And it all starts from now. So I believe I’m in the right profession to start. [01:09:15] Start it with.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, nice. Yeah. And the final question [01:09:20] tends to be a deathbed question. Yeah. Three pieces of advice for your loved [01:09:25] ones. Um.

Riaz Sharif: Stay resilient. Never go. Never give up on your goals. [01:09:30] And don’t let someone’s opinion of you become your reality. Les [01:09:35] brown. You know that that quote. He said that Les Brown. But it’s the best quote that I could ever [01:09:40] stand by. Because we live in this life where people tell us what they think we are, and we [01:09:45] and most people live by that until they’re dead. Or they or they, you know, until they get older and they let someone. [01:09:50]

Payman Langroudi: Else define you.

Riaz Sharif: Absolutely. They miss out on opportunities because of someone’s expectation or [01:09:55] opinion of them. And I think like that shouldn’t be that shouldn’t be true because you need to believe in your own [01:10:00] ability, your own, you know, your own driving force and your own what you desire in your life and make [01:10:05] it come true. You’re the only person who you need to prove that point to. And that’s what I would tell people around me [01:10:10] on my deathbed. Yeah, just keep going. Don’t ever give up on it. And [01:10:15] just don’t ever have any regrets about what you missed, what you could have done in your life. Just do what you can [01:10:20] do. Yeah, true. That’s it. And set realistic [01:10:25] goals. You know, I think that’s the next thing. And when when we set goals higher than what we think, you [01:10:30] know, we can’t accomplish. And we get let down by them, don’t we? So set realistic goals. And like [01:10:35] you said as well, you said, you mentioned a few times in the podcast just take steps. Don’t you don’t need to rush. Just [01:10:40] let the process unfold when it needs to unfold and hopefully it leads to beautiful places. So [01:10:45] that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a massive inspiration, man. It really it really, [01:10:50] really has. You know, when you came on the course, you I thought you were a bit quiet. You were [01:10:55] a quiet guy. And I thought, what’s wrong with him, man? Yeah. Um, but it’s [01:11:00] been a massive honour.

Riaz Sharif: To listen to. So much was going on that, of course, we didn’t really get much time to [01:11:05] speak to you. But yeah, it was, um. Yeah, he’s amazing man.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much.

Riaz Sharif: I appreciate you so much. [01:11:10]

Payman Langroudi: Thank you so much for, you.

Riaz Sharif: Know, thanks for.

Payman Langroudi: Coming here.

Riaz Sharif: Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: Appreciate it. [01:11:15]

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to [01:11:20] go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:11:25] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:11:30]

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:11:35] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to [01:11:40] what we had to say and what our guests has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of [01:11:45] it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:11:50] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so so much [01:11:55] for listening.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

In this solo episode of the Dental Leaders podcast, Prav Solanki reflects on the past year and shares his plans for 2025, focusing on personal growth, public speaking, and health and wellness.

He discusses the challenges faced by dental practices in marketing and competition, emphasizing the importance of a robust sales process and conversion strategies.

Prav highlights niche marketing opportunities, particularly for nervous patients and children’s orthodontics, and predicts a positive trend in dental practice acquisitions for the coming year. He concludes with insights on evidence-based wellness and the importance of foundational health practices.

In This Episode

00:00 – Planning for 2025

05:42 – Dental Marketing and Competition

12:45 – Sales Process & Conversion Strategies

19:03 – Niche Marketing

26:37 – Future Trends in Dental Practice Acquisitions

34:12 – Evidence-Based Wellness and Health Goals

About Prav Solanki

Prav Solanki is a marketing scientist and dental growth specialist who has supported countless dental professionals and organisations to achieve stellar growth.

He is a co-owner and director of IAS Academy and founder of The Fresh, the UK’s leading dental growth and marketing agency.

His latest project, Leadflo, is described as the world’s most advanced CRM for dental clinics.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get [00:00:10] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:15] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:20]

Prav Solanki: Hello and welcome to the [00:00:25] Dental Leaders Podcast Prav Solanki here. 2nd of January, 6 a.m. 2025 [00:00:30] recording a solo episode. So this time [00:00:35] of year, beginning of the year, what is it that I’m thinking about? I’m thinking about the year ahead. A [00:00:40] lot of us take some time off between Christmas and New Year to reset, indulge, [00:00:45] spend time with the family, switch off from work and some of us have [00:00:50] been grafting all the way through. For me, it’s been a balance between the two. I’ve definitely taken [00:00:55] some time out. If I look back, I would have probably spent that time [00:01:00] a little bit differently, but hey, that’s life, right? So, um, probably overindulged a [00:01:05] little bit. Not trained as hard as I could have done, or as much as I would [00:01:10] have liked to have done. But no regrets. During the time between [00:01:15] Christmas and New Year, I usually spend that time planning. So as well as switching [00:01:20] off, I do do a little bit of work. I’ve caught up with a handful of clients who are also [00:01:25] planning for 2025, speaking to them about what their growth plans are, their marketing [00:01:30] strategy, what they’re looking to achieve, whether it’s a step [00:01:35] back from the clinic, sell the clinic, grow the clinic, campaign [00:01:40] driven open days, this, that and the other, everyone’s got a bunch of different goals [00:01:45] that they’ve got for the different practices that we work with. And I think [00:01:50] for me, I’ve spent that time doing what I do around this time.

Prav Solanki: I’ve [00:01:55] spoken about it before and I go through this exercise called The Wheel of Life, Zig [00:02:00] Ziglar Wheel of Life, and I rate myself from 1 to 10 in different facets [00:02:05] and areas of my life, looking at things like relationships with friends and family members [00:02:10] and where I score on those in terms of my effort and what I need to do to improve [00:02:15] them. And it might be as simple as a phone call, a lunch date, or something like that. Romance. [00:02:20] Health and fitness. Spirituality. Career and [00:02:25] personal development. What do I want to get better at this year for me? Definitely definitely [00:02:30] definitely. I want to get much, much better at public speaking and communication. [00:02:35] It’s an area of my career that has blossomed and grown over the last [00:02:40] 3 or 4 years. I’m getting better at it, but certainly this [00:02:45] time next year I want to be a much, much better speaker than I am today. And [00:02:50] so part and parcel of that will be a conscious effort to get somebody to help me with my [00:02:55] speaking presence. I’ve already invested in a couple of courses and also [00:03:00] a coach to help me with my public speaking, my articulation, [00:03:05] my stage presence. I just really want to hone that skill and get much, [00:03:10] much better at that. And then look at things like work, finance, [00:03:15] um, and all those sorts of things, business, the dental practice [00:03:20] and what I can do in those different areas to improve things [00:03:25] for me.

Prav Solanki: A massive focus this year last year was massively focussed [00:03:30] on work and growing the business, getting the business to the to the level [00:03:35] I wanted to get it to, and I think I’m at a comfortable place now where [00:03:40] the vast majority of my energy thought process is going to [00:03:45] go into health and wellness, and part and parcel of that is going to revolve around [00:03:50] actively taking a role in that. So the training, the exercise, [00:03:55] the routine of that and part and parcel of it is [00:04:00] going to focus around the habits around living a healthy life. [00:04:05] I like to do a lot of research in the science and the evidence [00:04:10] around health and wellness, whether that goes into what you put into your mouth in [00:04:15] terms of food, diet, training, methodology, supplementation, [00:04:20] and what’s out there in terms of information. And I usually find the [00:04:25] best way of learning is by sharing. So I’m [00:04:30] going to be spending quite a bit of time this year documenting my health and wellness journey. [00:04:35] Any research that I read or podcasts that I listen to, [00:04:40] and summarising that in a email that will go out [00:04:45] to my subscribers. Of those who’ve subscribed to my list, I’ll be sending an email out [00:04:50] to all my subscribers as well this time of year to just sort of ask them, do they still [00:04:55] want to be on that list? So loads of people have subscribed, they’ll have downloaded some [00:05:00] marketing guide or something.

Prav Solanki: They’ll be on my list and perhaps they don’t want to hear from me anymore. So [00:05:05] once a year I do an email cleanse and I invite my guests to unsubscribe [00:05:10] my subscribers to unsubscribe from my list if they don’t want to hear from me again. Um, [00:05:15] and those who want to stay on and engage, um, and listen to what I’ve got to say, [00:05:20] whether it’s about business growth, marketing campaigns, um, and [00:05:25] this particular year focusing on sort of health and wellness, really, that’s a big, [00:05:30] big focus for me. So having done the planning for 2025, [00:05:35] I’ve helped a lot of my clients plan for 2025. Um, big, [00:05:40] big area for me career wise is, [00:05:45] like I’ve said, the public speaking and presenting and getting better at that and then focusing on health and wellness [00:05:50] and sharing my journey with my audience at the same time. That helps me learn [00:05:55] as well. So what are the general conversations that I [00:06:00] am having with my clients at the moment when it comes to growth, [00:06:05] marketing, lead generation, sales, and [00:06:10] generally the issues that are facing? A lot of my clients, whether [00:06:15] they’re associates or dental practice owners. Certainly for [00:06:20] me, the general conversation that I seem to be having with a lot of clients [00:06:25] is it’s getting a lot harder. The last few months has been challenging. And [00:06:30] part and parcel of that has been a step up in competition. Right? [00:06:35] The cost of advertising has gone through the roof.

Prav Solanki: When we look at stats and we look [00:06:40] at marketing and advertising and we’re running, [00:06:45] let’s say Google ad campaigns, Facebook ad campaigns and things like that. I think [00:06:50] one of the things that’s really important is measuring the outcome of [00:06:55] the funds that you put into your advertising campaigns, and one of the ways in which we do [00:07:00] that is any campaigns that we’re running, we look at the cost per acquisition [00:07:05] or the cost per lead. Now, if we start at the beginning of that journey, you put some money into the machine [00:07:10] and from the other side you get some contact details of a prospective patient [00:07:15] who’s interested in treatment X, let’s call that dental implants. Now [00:07:20] the cost per acquisition or the cost per contact details at the moment is is [00:07:25] on the increase okay. So let’s say at the moment, you know a dental implant [00:07:30] enquiry might cost you, I don’t know, £15 to get a patient’s details. [00:07:35] And that might go up to over the course of the next 3 to 6 months, £20, £20, [00:07:40] £30, £50, whatever that is. But then following that, the [00:07:45] number of those inquiries that convert into consultation gives [00:07:50] you another metric, which is the cost per booking. So let’s keep the numbers [00:07:55] really simple. Let’s say you throw £100 into a marketing campaign and that [00:08:00] generates you ten inquiries. Then your cost per enquiry is £10. [00:08:05] But out of those ten inquiries, you only get one patient that [00:08:10] books in for a consultation.

Prav Solanki: Then your cost per booking is now £100 or [00:08:15] per patient sat on the chair. And if that, if you’ve got a 100% conversion [00:08:20] rate on that, then your cost per converted paying patient is £100 as well. [00:08:25] And you can work out those metrics. Tracking that is a really, really important [00:08:30] way of monitoring and measuring your advertising. Now, what we have noticed [00:08:35] over the last, say, 6 to 9 months is the cost per booking. The cost [00:08:40] per enquiry has gone up and why is that? I think there’s a few reasons, and [00:08:45] one of them is that the competition has gone up and the auction [00:08:50] has changed. So imagine we’re running some ad campaigns, and before we only had ten [00:08:55] competitors and now there’s 20 competitors. They’re all marketing [00:09:00] different things. Some of them are going in at price points that are just unimaginable [00:09:05] for some of my clients. And they can’t compete on price. So we need to compete on quality or a message [00:09:10] or experience or something like that. And some of them are coming in at a similar price point [00:09:15] with similar experience. So more and more clinics are getting savvy with advertising and [00:09:20] deciding to invest in their marketing campaigns and generate [00:09:25] the sort of inquiries that can grow their business. The other thing that [00:09:30] has shifted has been a massive shift is that a lot of associates within [00:09:35] dental practices have started to spend money on advertising. [00:09:40] I started to see this in 2023.

Prav Solanki: And in 2024, [00:09:45] there was an explosion of this, whereby about 30% [00:09:50] of the new inquiries that come into our business when clients are getting in touch with us to help [00:09:55] help them with lead generation, marketing and ad campaigns. About [00:10:00] 30% of those enquiries now are coming from associates. And I think it’s [00:10:05] this shift, this mindset shift with associates where they are realising [00:10:10] that they own a business within a business. [00:10:15] And the beauty of that is, as an associate, you haven’t got [00:10:20] the overheads of running the business, you haven’t got the fixed costs [00:10:25] of employing team members, QC, compliance, rent, [00:10:30] all of that sort of stuff. You just come in and you do your work and you get paid [00:10:35] a percentage of the profit that you generate, the net profit that you generate. [00:10:40] Um, all the gross profit should say that you generate. Right? You get a percentage of [00:10:45] that. Now, I think the key thing here is that if you understand [00:10:50] that and as an associate, if you’re investing in marketing, the [00:10:55] potential return is huge. But what that does for dental practice owners are a lot of [00:11:00] my clients is it’s increasing the competition. And let me quantify that with some [00:11:05] actual data. So one particular client, we were looking at their implant campaign [00:11:10] over the last nine months. The performance of that campaign has dropped. [00:11:15] And so when we did an analysis and we looked at that, one of the things that was really clear [00:11:20] is that the cost per enquiry had gone through the roof.

Prav Solanki: And so [00:11:25] the number of inquiries per, let’s say, thousand pound of media spend budget had [00:11:30] gone down dramatically. When you dig into the data a little bit [00:11:35] deeper, and this is referring specifically to Google Ads, the CPC [00:11:40] or the cost per click has also gone up. So that particular keyword and let’s [00:11:45] just say for argument’s sake, that keyword was dental implants plus location that they’re in. Okay. [00:11:50] So let’s just call that dental implants. Just call it dental implants. Birmingham for [00:11:55] argument’s sake. The cost of that click nine months ago [00:12:00] was about £1.83. The cost of that [00:12:05] click now. So nine months on is closer to £4 [00:12:10] right. Over double what it used to be. What does that mean? [00:12:15] It means there’s more competition in the auction. There’s more people bidding [00:12:20] on that keyword. And therefore the cost of that keyword has gone up, which then [00:12:25] has a knock on effect. Because if it used to take ten clicks to get an enquiry [00:12:30] and it still takes ten clicks to get an enquiry, it’s going to cost you twice [00:12:35] as much to get that enquiry. Now, if your competitors are coming in at a cheaper price [00:12:40] or they’ve got better offers or better deals than you, perhaps your conversion rate from clicks to [00:12:45] inquiries goes down so your cost per acquisition goes up even more. The [00:12:50] bottom line is there is a rising cost per acquisition of advertising, and [00:12:55] there’s a few things that we can do to counter that.

Prav Solanki: One change your advertising message [00:13:00] to improve your sales process. Three increase [00:13:05] your budget. And it’s a combination of those things that are going to help you win in 2025 [00:13:10] with the associates. I’m just going I’m just going to I’m just going to go back to that, [00:13:15] and then we’ll come back to the advertising and marketing and deal with those three points. But [00:13:20] with the associates who are now realising that they own a business within [00:13:25] a business, this is a game changer for a lot of our clients who are working [00:13:30] with, who are associates that are running their campaigns. But the one thing they’ve got to be mindful of [00:13:35] is this is that you can invest in the marketing and the lead generation and generate the enquiries. [00:13:40] But as an associate, unless you have that sales process buttoned down [00:13:45] when that enquiry comes in, who’s going to deal with it? If you’re hosted within a practice where they’ve got an [00:13:50] amazing sales team and they’re happy to convert your enquiries for you. Magic. If not, [00:13:55] what’s the next step? Are you going to employ somebody part time, full time, whatever [00:14:00] that is, to handle those enquiries, you’re going to use one of these third party call answering services [00:14:05] or um, lead handling services as well as advertising. [00:14:10] You’ve really got to think about the sales process. And sales and marketing go hand in [00:14:15] hand in harmony. Going back to what can we do in this rising cost [00:14:20] of advertising to improve what I call the overall [00:14:25] conversion rate, or to make sure you’re converting more of that business into [00:14:30] patients who are going ahead with treatment.

Prav Solanki: I think the key thing here [00:14:35] is let’s just look at all the different aspects, right? So the first part is what [00:14:40] is your marketing message. Perhaps you could get away with something a little bit weaker now. But if you’re [00:14:45] competing on price then make that clear and transparent. If you’re not competing on price, [00:14:50] what you’re competing on is experience. Have you got a certain number of Google reviews that you [00:14:55] need to sing and dance about? Have you got video testimonials that could be making it, making its [00:15:00] way through on the landing page? And when that inquiry lands, have you got [00:15:05] a decent automated email sequence that goes out to that patient [00:15:10] that really does tell them about what it is that you offer, who you are with [00:15:15] lots and lots of social proof. Let’s remember this, that every patient [00:15:20] that inquires with you, certainly those that are interested in any kind of cosmetic [00:15:25] implant, that sort of treatment on the whole, if they are online [00:15:30] searching, they will be doing their due diligence, and they will be [00:15:35] spending a lot of their time inquiring at multiple clinics, engaging with multiple [00:15:40] clinics. So your response is essential. It’s really, really important. [00:15:45] And the second thing is your response rate is important. So is the quality [00:15:50] of the response but the speed of the response as well.

Prav Solanki: So the conversation [00:15:55] that perhaps your team has with a patient and when your team speaks [00:16:00] to them, your three days or four days late versus the other [00:16:05] clinic, who’s jumping on that lead within, I don’t know, 15, [00:16:10] 20 minutes of it, inquiring, inquiring and getting them booked in straight away. [00:16:15] Lots of our clients have had their campaigns switched on over Christmas. Between Christmas [00:16:20] and New Year. Those that will be more successful will have had somebody during that busy [00:16:25] period getting back to patients, talking to patients, engaging with them, texting them [00:16:30] during that period of time. And it’s really, really important that your sales [00:16:35] process is absolutely on point. And what do I mean by that? I [00:16:40] think making sure in today’s age you have got a very, very good and robust [00:16:45] CRM system to manage and handle your enquiries. And that [00:16:50] automations are what I would call emotionally intelligent, [00:16:55] but also share all of your usp’s. I’ll give you a simple example. If [00:17:00] anyone inquires at my clinic and they’re interested in, let’s say, full [00:17:05] arch implant dentistry or same day teeth or implanted dentures, they’ll [00:17:10] receive a message along the lines of thank you for your enquiry. And I can see [00:17:15] that you’re interested in changing your smile and your exploring and implanted [00:17:20] dentures. Our implanted denture service is delivered by [00:17:25] master’s level implant surgeon, Doctor Suresh Chohan and Mark Northover, [00:17:30] who has got over three decades of experience handcrafting unbelievably [00:17:35] natural looking dentures that look and feel like natural [00:17:40] teeth.

Prav Solanki: I’d love to invite you to come in and meet Mark and [00:17:45] Suresh at a complimentary consultation, where they can learn about your smile, [00:17:50] you can learn about the costs, and they can also take you through examples [00:17:55] of previous patients whose lives we’ve transformed, giving them the gift of being able to eat whatever [00:18:00] they want again, smile with confidence and get a new lease of [00:18:05] life. We’re proud to have over 355 star [00:18:10] Google reviews from patients just like yourself, who are in a situation where [00:18:15] they were unsure of who they should choose to have their treatment with something [00:18:20] along those lines, and then we will respond to them within 15 minutes. They’ll also get a [00:18:25] text message at the same time, if we try and call them and we can’t get through to them in the morning, we’ll [00:18:30] try them again at lunchtime. We’ll try them again in the evening. But all of that process, [00:18:35] the entire process, the automation, the language, the emotional intelligence, all of that [00:18:40] is driven by our lead flow CRM system, right? Our CRM system [00:18:45] helps our team know what to send the patient and when. It automates [00:18:50] part of that journey, and it really does help us drive that sales [00:18:55] process really smoothly. So whatever system you’re using, [00:19:00] whether it’s Google Sheets, whether you’re using a different CRM system, it doesn’t really matter. Just make [00:19:05] sure you’ve got a robust process in place for sales.

Prav Solanki: So clients that come to me and say, hey, [00:19:10] we want to increase our marketing budget, or we’re looking at advertising now and growing our clinic. [00:19:15] The first thing I will ask them to do is spend some time nailing their sales process, [00:19:20] because you can rapidly increase your return on investment much, much quicker. [00:19:25] The other thing that I’m seeing in a lot of clinics is missed calls. [00:19:30] We do for a lot of our clinics, we record the phone calls, and we [00:19:35] put call tracking numbers on landing pages and advertising campaigns so [00:19:40] that we can see how many of those ads are creating phone [00:19:45] calls. But the benefit is we record the phone calls that have been skipped or answered, and [00:19:50] we can see there’s a lot of missed calls going on. And what is the biggest cause [00:19:55] of missed calls? I’ll tell you now, it’s an automated call answering [00:20:00] service. So if you’ve got one of these in your practice. Welcome to ABC Dental [00:20:05] Practice. If you’re a new patient, press one. If you’re an existing [00:20:10] patient, press two. If you’d like to change an existing appointment, press [00:20:15] three. So on and so forth. The number of patients that just do [00:20:20] not continue with those is It’s unreal. So if you’ve got something like [00:20:25] that in place and you don’t have to have that in place, it’s funny. [00:20:30] You know, a lot of practices offer three options or two options. Same pit, same person [00:20:35] who answers the phone irrespective if the reason for that call menu [00:20:40] is not to change the you know, it’s to deliver the same service at the end of the phone. [00:20:45]

Prav Solanki: Drop it. If you’ve got a human being answering on the end of that call and just put yourself in that position. [00:20:50] If you’re sitting waiting on a menu, whether you’re booking a restaurant or whatever it is, [00:20:55] you don’t want to be on hold. You don’t want to. You want to speak and connect to a human being straight away. [00:21:00] If you can make that happen, you will increase the volume of sales that you do. [00:21:05] So we’re seeing a lot of missed calls. Then the next thing we’re seeing or hearing [00:21:10] when we listen to those calls is transactional information. [00:21:15] Or you’re interested in dental implants or dental implants start from £2,800. [00:21:20] That doesn’t include any bone grafting, but includes the implant and the whole crown. To book you in for a consultation [00:21:25] or just need to take some details. Blah blah blah. But that call is [00:21:30] missing three key elements. And I see this all the time. Even with [00:21:35] clinics at the top of their game, they’re missing the why now. So [00:21:40] they’re not getting the information from the patient. Like what? What’s going on in your life? How long have you had [00:21:45] this problem and why now? The missing, the pain. They’re not understanding what the pain points [00:21:50] are of the patient and developing that rapport and connection on that call.

Prav Solanki: So they’re missing [00:21:55] those two things. And the third thing they’re missing is the why. Is there something memorable? [00:22:00] You can tell that patient the usp’s about your clinic, the experience of the surgeon, [00:22:05] the experience of your clinicians, the fact that you offer sedation, the fact that you cater for nervous patients, [00:22:10] the fact that you’ve got 505 star Google reviews and you’re going to be joining those patients, [00:22:15] the fact that you’re a multi-award winning practice, a lot of that is missing, [00:22:20] and a lot of these phone calls and conversations are transactional in nature. Now, when these patients [00:22:25] are speaking to three, four, five clinics at a time, you need to be sharing [00:22:30] something with them that makes sure that that call is memorable. [00:22:35] So that’s really, really important, right? Your sales process. And [00:22:40] one of the most popular courses that I deliver, or training sessions that I deliver, is [00:22:45] my Sales Mastery course that I run in collaboration with the IAS Academy. I think I [00:22:50] run 2 or 3 courses or events a year. And one of the things [00:22:55] that I really focus on when I’m delivering that course is tailored, [00:23:00] emotionally intelligent communication with every patient. [00:23:05] And unfortunately, I’m seeing a lot of copy paste. So when I go into a business and I analyse [00:23:10] how they respond to emails. So if a patient inquires [00:23:15] about Invisalign, they get the same copy paste template irrespective of whatever [00:23:20] they have said. Same copy paste template and sometimes it’s [00:23:25] just jarring because it’s not relevant.

Prav Solanki: So my advice [00:23:30] is that if you’re spending all this money on marketing getting these inquiries through, just take a moment [00:23:35] to read that patient’s inquiry in detail. Take a moment to specifically [00:23:40] answer that patient’s needs in the email, and take [00:23:45] a moment to address absolutely everything [00:23:50] they’ve asked so that they feel that it’s that it’s not a copy and paste, because [00:23:55] you can spot a copy and paste miles away. We’ve got an exciting offer this month [00:24:00] with Invisalign. We’re giving away this, that and the other, but the patient’s ask something a little bit [00:24:05] more specific. Answer that question first. Deliver the rest of the template, but [00:24:10] make it very, very specific and stop the copy and pasting. I’m seeing that [00:24:15] quite a lot. Um, so marketing and sales. Sales process is really important [00:24:20] when it comes to the marketing side of things. And you can drop your marketing [00:24:25] budget massively when you’ve got an amazing sales team in place. [00:24:30] The other thing that I’m asking a lot of practices to do is think about what data [00:24:35] is sat within their practice right now. And what I’m talking about are the quick [00:24:40] wins. So think about all the inquiries. Just look at 2024 [00:24:45] and take some time to look at every single inquiry that landed in your [00:24:50] practice in 2024 that never made it through to a consultation. If those patients [00:24:55] haven’t gone ahead somewhere else, they have still got that same dental issue.

Prav Solanki: Reach out to them [00:25:00] again. Reactivate them, pick up the phone, send them a text message. Send them an email. [00:25:05] Reactivation campaigns for our clients are one of the most cost [00:25:10] effective and highest ROI campaigns that we’ve ever, ever done for a client. In fact, when [00:25:15] we onboard a new client, it’s one of the first things that we can do, um, that can provide a high [00:25:20] level of ROI. So think about those. Think about every patient that you’ve [00:25:25] handed a treatment plan over to that hasn’t gone ahead. Reach out to them and reactivate those. [00:25:30] And a huge one is open treatment plans. Those patients [00:25:35] who perhaps you started treatment on. Right. Let’s say let’s say you’d prescribed [00:25:40] six crowns, but they’ve only had two and they haven’t got a next appointment. What can we do to wake them [00:25:45] up? Can we start speaking to them, engaging with them. Some people say, oh, you know, I haven’t got enough enough [00:25:50] work for a new team member. I’m going to hire a TCO or [00:25:55] whatever. There’s tons of data in your practice to keep team members busy, so open [00:26:00] treatment plans is a massive game changer. Works really well when we pick up the [00:26:05] phone and re-engage with them. And then some practices that have been going for such a long time [00:26:10] have got a Database of, should we say, patients who haven’t visited [00:26:15] the clinic in the last 12 months and don’t have an appointment in the next 12 months? Well, there’s [00:26:20] some low hanging fruit for you, and there’s a massive opportunity for you to just pick up the phone, [00:26:25] send an email and send a text message and say, I noticed you haven’t got an appointment booked in [00:26:30] and you haven’t been in for a while.

Prav Solanki: We’d love to just carry out an oral health check and make sure everything’s okay. [00:26:35] When can we get you fitted in? So that’s really, really important. [00:26:40] And the next thing that is working. But I think let me just, [00:26:45] um, take a couple of steps back. Everyone at the moment is doing [00:26:50] Invisalign, bonding and implants, and the advertising [00:26:55] platforms are absolutely cluttered with offers [00:27:00] for Invisalign open days, Invisalign deals. New year. [00:27:05] New year is around the corner, right? So everyone’s running campaigns, new year, new you. Best [00:27:10] offer of 2025. Get your teeth and get your confidence in 2010. All of this [00:27:15] is going out at the moment, right for our clients as well. But maybe think [00:27:20] about something different. And what’s bringing me [00:27:25] to this is towards the end of last year, I spent some time in [00:27:30] Aqua Dental Clinic. Um, if you were, if you ever new a new maney. [00:27:35] Um, one of my first clients met him maybe, what, 16, [00:27:40] 17 years ago at his clinic in central London at the time, before he sold that, [00:27:45] um, and launched his, um, his clinic in Hatch End, which was nearer to home. Um, [00:27:50] and he was well ahead of his time at the time when I met [00:27:55] him, he said, look, Prav, one of the things that I focus on is nervous patients.

Prav Solanki: And [00:28:00] he bought the domain name Dental dentists. Co.uk back then. Um, and [00:28:05] he was really, really big on the communication, the strategy, the campaigns [00:28:10] that we were driving focussed on nervous, patient campaigns. [00:28:15] And although Anoop is no longer with us, his wife Neera is still running that [00:28:20] dental practice and the emphasis there is still about [00:28:25] treating nervous patients. And what does Neera tell me about nervous patients? Generally, [00:28:30] they’re hard at work. And what I mean by hard work is you need to give them a [00:28:35] lot more time. But very, very rarely do nervous patients start [00:28:40] asking you for a deal, haggle about price, or say the clinic [00:28:45] down the road is offering free whitening with this, that and the other because you’re solving a [00:28:50] bigger problem. And that is the anxiety that they feel about coming into a dental [00:28:55] practice and be that through, um, simple communication, your patient [00:29:00] journey, when you get that patient through the door the first time and they don’t even step into the surgery or meet [00:29:05] the dentist. And then the second time to meet the dentist in the waiting area. And then the third time [00:29:10] they go and they’ve got a nervous patient program. They offer sedation. It’s the way they greet [00:29:15] and talk to patients and give them the time. And so a lot of our campaigns that we run for them [00:29:20] focussed on nervous patient dentistry.

Prav Solanki: Guess what. There’s [00:29:25] not a lot of competition out there for that because very, very few practices are pushing [00:29:30] that or sedation campaigns and those sort of things. And I spent some [00:29:35] time towards the end of last year videoing some of these patients. [00:29:40] So we did a videography day at near his practice, and I had the opportunity [00:29:45] to interview probably 6 to 8 patients that day. And I spent some time [00:29:50] speaking to them, learning about them and understanding why they chose [00:29:55] that clinic and what was really interesting. And it all goes back to a website [00:30:00] that I started back in, gosh, probably around Probably around [00:30:05] the time I started the bit, about 2008 2009 launched [00:30:10] a website called Dental phobia. Co.uk to help connect [00:30:15] clinics that offer. Shall we say, a service that’s dedicated [00:30:20] to nervous patients and also connect those nervous patients. If you type Dental phobia [00:30:25] into Google, it ranks number one. And we get thousands of patients every month coming to [00:30:30] that website looking for an appropriate dentist in their area who offers sedation [00:30:35] and whatnot. Having spoken to these patients, [00:30:40] the vast majority of them went to that website and looked for a [00:30:45] nervous patient provider. And what was really important to them [00:30:50] is getting some reassurance that there’s a community of these dentists. But then once again, once [00:30:55] they’d gone to the nearest website, learned about nerer, enquired, [00:31:00] sent an email, remember some of these nervous patients just [00:31:05] picking up the phone is a massive leap.

Prav Solanki: So a lot of them will email. Now what’s [00:31:10] the emotive response? What’s the emotional intelligence behind that email that goes out when [00:31:15] the nervous patient inquires? For a lot of them, they just want the reassurance [00:31:20] when they say they’re nervous, not the reassurance. They’re in safe hands and they want to learn about the process. [00:31:25] And some of them take weeks, even months to step through the door. [00:31:30] But let me tell you, a lot of these patients have got dental neglect. They need a lot of work [00:31:35] in terms of from a business point of view, if we look at it purely from that point of view, generates [00:31:40] a lot of revenue. And at the same time, um, you’re changing [00:31:45] someone’s life because you’re giving them the courage to be able to step through the door and [00:31:50] take things into their own hands. And often it’s a previous bad experience, whatever [00:31:55] that is, whether it’s a it’s a dentist who didn’t quite treat him with the respect, um, [00:32:00] and heart that they, that they wanted. Um, or perhaps it’s just this inbuilt fear of [00:32:05] needles pain for, for a lot of them it’s the not knowing, [00:32:10] um, and just communication and talking them through. One of one of the patients said that the main thing [00:32:15] is they didn’t even need sedation, was that Neera just told me step by step what she was [00:32:20] going to do and step by step, what she was doing.

Prav Solanki: And she did exactly what she said she was going to do. And that patient [00:32:25] felt in control. Um, so if you offer a dedicated cam, if you offer [00:32:30] a dedicated service for nervous patients, have a think about if you’re running [00:32:35] marketing campaigns to maybe push some of your budget into that. Another [00:32:40] area that’s working really well that not everyone offers is children’s orthodontics. So [00:32:45] children’s orthodontic campaigns generally the same thing. You don’t get parents [00:32:50] coming through the door haggling over price because clinic has got an offer on Invisalign [00:32:55] or whatever. Parents want the best for their children. They want to know Clinically, they’ve got [00:33:00] the right, um, practitioner, whether it’s a specialist orthodontist or a highly [00:33:05] qualified GDP. Um, really, really important, um, that [00:33:10] you communicate that in your marketing campaigns once again on social [00:33:15] media, on meta ad campaigns, Facebook and Instagram, we’re seeing really, really [00:33:20] huge success on children’s orthodontic campaigns, whether it’s an open day driven [00:33:25] campaign or an evergreen campaign that’s always running and having social proof of photographs [00:33:30] of mums and children in school uniforms and things like that works [00:33:35] really, really well. I think towards the end of last year as well. [00:33:40] One of the reasons why advertising campaigns or the cost of advertising [00:33:45] went through the roof was November month, Black Friday. Lots and lots [00:33:50] of practices who weren’t advertising before stepped up their budgets, started advertising, [00:33:55] and we entered this marketplace where patients were waiting for [00:34:00] the best Black Friday deal.

Prav Solanki: And now that’s passed and people have come [00:34:05] out of Christmas. Some people are going to be looking for the new smiles. Some people are going to be overspent. [00:34:10] But I think as we get into February, things are going to improve. I do think for dentistry, [00:34:15] 2025 is going to be better than 2024. Part [00:34:20] of the reason why I say that is the acquisitions market. So if I look at [00:34:25] 2024 and a lot of the corporates out there, they’d pretty much [00:34:30] stopped buying a lot of a lot of the practices that I was working with. [00:34:35] They were mid deal. Lots of deals were paused. And certainly we’re seeing [00:34:40] confidence in the market now. I’m speaking to some of the corporates who have [00:34:45] now said that we’re now back in the acquisitions game. [00:34:50] There’s some some corporates you can see like for example Deves Group Dental beauty [00:34:55] have made a few acquisitions towards the end of last year. I’m speaking [00:35:00] to some brokers who are more in the know of what’s going on in the marketplace and they’re [00:35:05] saying, look, lots of deals are coming on the table in 2025. So if 2025 is the year [00:35:10] where you’re thinking, you know what? I’m thinking about selling my practice or [00:35:15] taking some cash off the table, or it’s the right time for you. Retirement’s coming [00:35:20] close. You 3 or 4 years away from it might be worth spending some time figuring out. [00:35:25] What is your practice worth, what are your options out there and considering them? [00:35:30] Because I do think that there are going to be more acquisitions in 2025 [00:35:35] than there were in 2024.

Prav Solanki: At least that’s what I’m hearing close to the ground [00:35:40] anyway. And that just leads me to say thank you for your time and attention [00:35:45] today. I wish you all the best for 2025. And [00:35:50] if any of you need any help with practice growth, you guys know where I am. The health [00:35:55] information that I’m going to be either publishing on my site or pushing out through my [00:36:00] email newsletter is via Prav. Com so if you want to jump [00:36:05] on there, subscribe to it, then I’ll be sharing it with you [00:36:10] whenever I publish it. I think one of the first myths I’m probably going to dispel, I’ll talk [00:36:15] about it now, is red light therapy, because it’s the biggest load of [00:36:20] rhubarb I’ve ever come across. Um, there’s loads of people [00:36:25] promoting these red lights for muscle recovery and, um, [00:36:30] wellness and all the rest of it. But if you actually look at the evidence, right, [00:36:35] and you think about the science, right, think about the wavelength of red light and [00:36:40] how deep it can penetrate. Right? At the most, at the highest impact. [00:36:45] Right. Red light is going to go into penetrate maybe two millimetres, three millimetres at the most. [00:36:50] How on Earth, how on earth is that going to help with muscle [00:36:55] recovery? I have got no idea. Right. If you read the research and read the literature, everything [00:37:00] is so marginal.

Prav Solanki: Um. And what what really gets my goat [00:37:05] is when there is information about [00:37:10] this new found supplement or this new found therapy, like, [00:37:15] you know, training under red light or lying under a red light, and this does this and this does that for [00:37:20] you. For me, it’s all about the evidence and evidence based wellness. Right. So and I’m going to be sharing [00:37:25] my view on evidence based wellness not medical information. Not advice [00:37:30] for you to go and act or anything like that, which is going to be sharing the information that I’m learning with [00:37:35] my audience to hopefully educate you and make more of an informed decision [00:37:40] about your health and wellness, because it’s a big part of what I do. Right. [00:37:45] When it comes to supplementing, taking the right supplements, choosing the right brands that have been [00:37:50] lab tested and then training. But but but the key thing and [00:37:55] I’ll say this to anyone who asks me for health advice, you [00:38:00] can’t supplement your way out of a poor diet and a poor [00:38:05] exercise routine. You can’t ice bath your way out of a poor diet [00:38:10] and a poor exercise routine, and you can’t sauna your way [00:38:15] out of that. Do the basics first. Get that [00:38:20] right. Get that consistent. So many people ask me what, what brand of this vitamin do you do? And what [00:38:25] supplements do you take and which brand of or which type of magnesium do [00:38:30] you take, and so on and so forth.

Prav Solanki: Right. The reason they’re called supplements [00:38:35] is simply this. They are there to supplement what you are already doing. [00:38:40] Get the basics right, start training on a regular basis, regular exercise, [00:38:45] a combination of some sort of strength related muscle [00:38:50] building exercises and some cardiovascular work [00:38:55] as well. Eat healthily, whatever that is. I’m not. I’m definitely not going to be sat here advising [00:39:00] you on which diet is the best, because we could be debating forever whether it’s vegetarian, [00:39:05] meat eater, low carb, high carb, intermittent fasting, this, that and the other, there’s so much [00:39:10] out there, right? Just cut out the cut out the nonsense, reduce um, the [00:39:15] stuff that you know is harmful for you, right? The processed food cut the alcohol [00:39:20] if you can’t drop it completely. Um, and you know, the sweet treats, [00:39:25] the, the, you know, the chocolate bars, the pizzas, all [00:39:30] that sort of stuff, just cut it, cut it right back, get the basics right, then start [00:39:35] thinking about supplementation and then various bits of biohacking. Right. Lying [00:39:40] under a red light is not going to be a substitute for any of that. In fact, I don’t think it’s going to do anything. [00:39:45] And on that note, it just leaves me to say I wish you all the best for 2025. [00:39:50] Whatever your goals are, whatever your dreams are, I hope that you succeed and hopefully [00:39:55] see you on Dental Leaders more. I’m going to be interviewing a few guests, sharing [00:40:00] some amazing and exciting stories and journeys, and with some really cool [00:40:05] people.

[VOICE]: This is Dental Leaders, the [00:40:10] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:40:15] Your hosts Payman Langroudi [00:40:20] and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s [00:40:25] episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe in [00:40:30] iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate [00:40:35] it. If you would, um, give us a.

Payman Langroudi: Six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [00:40:40] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys. [00:40:45] Bye.

Dentist and legal expert Simon Thackeray discusses his route from NHS to private practice, his involvement in dental politics, and his role as a founder member of BAPD (British Association of Private Dentistry). 

He offers valuable insights into the challenges faced by private dentists during COVID-19 and shares candid thoughts about the profession’s future direction. 

The discussion covers everything from practice management and patient care to broader societal issues affecting dentistry.

 

In This Episode

02:00 – Backstory
03:35 – BAPD formation
07:45 – COVID – international approaches
13:35 – NHS dentistry
21:25 – Class and social mobility
31:30 – Legislation and governance
42:10 – Young dentists and private practice
52:15 – Career and practice ownership
54:35 – From NHS to private practice
1:14:00 – Commoditisation and ethics
1:21:45 – Education and public messaging
1:26:35 – Blackbox thinking
1:32:00 – Closing questions

 

About Simon Thackeray

Simon Thackeray is a prominent private dentist based in Mansfield who holds a master’s degree in law and serves as a founder member of the British Association of Private Dentists (BAPD), which he helped establish during the COVID-19 pandemic. After qualifying in 1991, he worked in several NHS practices before purchasing his own practice and transitioning to fully private care in 2006.

Simon Thackeray: So they knew that the reason I was going private and that prices would change significantly. [00:00:05] They knew it wasn’t because I was wanting to earn more. They knew it was [00:00:10] because I wanted to do the dentistry that I’d been trained to do. And once you’ve got your staff knowing [00:00:15] that it’s going to be better for everybody, not just you, [00:00:20] but they’re going to get the benefit from it. And the patients particularly are going to get the [00:00:25] benefit.

Payman Langroudi: Tricky financial situation, psychological situation, because the team [00:00:30] will be thinking, this is a place that serves me and my family. Yeah. And then suddenly [00:00:35] the thought process might be, this place isn’t for me and my family anymore.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And so it’s [00:00:40] it’s it’s a negotiation that needs to be taken very seriously.

Simon Thackeray: It was very difficult [00:00:45] because, you know, part of your I would say anybody thinking of doing it has got to have a plan B. [00:00:50] And part of that plan B is you get smaller, you actually contract in order to expand [00:00:55] again.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is Dental Leaders the podcast [00:01:05] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:10] hosts Payman Langroudi [00:01:15] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Simon [00:01:20] Thackery onto the podcast. Simon is a straight talker [00:01:25] extraordinaire. Yes. Legal Eagle [00:01:30] Dental politician. I would class you as Simon and the practice principal. [00:01:35]

Simon Thackeray: Thank you for inviting me.

Payman Langroudi: Thackery Dental in Mansfield.

Simon Thackeray: That’s right. Yeah. I’m not so sure about [00:01:40] the legal eagle and the dental politics.

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Simon Thackeray: I’ve got a I’ve got a master’s in law. Yeah. [00:01:45] And I do, I do do a fair amount of legal based stuff. But the more [00:01:50] you learn about the law, the less you realise you know about it.

Payman Langroudi: A bit like occlusion. Well, [00:01:55] does occlusion actually exist? Oh, I should say founder member of Bapd. [00:02:00]

Simon Thackeray: Yes, actually.

Payman Langroudi: British association private dentists.

Simon Thackeray: That’s right. That’s right. [00:02:05] Yeah. That came out of, um, that came out of Covid. Yeah. One of the [00:02:10] many things that did appear.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s start with that. Yeah. Let’s start with that. My wife’s a dentist. [00:02:15] A private dentist. And in Covid, she got [00:02:20] nothing. No support whatsoever. She’s an associate. Yeah. And, you know, we were okay. But [00:02:25] I was thinking, what if she was a single mum? Oh, God. And, [00:02:30] you know, working full time and paying school fees or whatever it was. She got nothing. Zero. [00:02:35]

Simon Thackeray: And I think that was that was what we realised very, very quickly. Um, [00:02:40] we were all waiting for this big announcement. Um, probably. [00:02:45] What was it, a week, two weeks into the lockdown, we were waiting for the big announcement as to what was likely to happen [00:02:50] with dentistry. And of course, the CDO came on. And one of the first things that [00:02:55] was said is I don’t speak for private dentists, so. Hang on. Where [00:03:00] are we? You know, what is this? I don’t think, uh, anything [00:03:05] like furlough had been announced at that point. So, you know, [00:03:10] we sat there with these businesses that employ people. And, you know, I’ve [00:03:15] always looked at me as having multiple responsibilities. I have a responsibility to my family. [00:03:20] I have a responsibility to myself. But I’ve got a responsibility to 19 people who work for me [00:03:25] or work with me. And you think, hang on a minute, how am I going to look after all these [00:03:30] people? What are they going to be thinking? Um, and, you know, that weekend [00:03:35] was a lot of, you know, chatting around with various people [00:03:40] who then I didn’t know all that well, but I’d been in email contact with and [00:03:45] it finished with a big meeting on zoom with [00:03:50] about 20 or 30 of us. And the bapd APD formed [00:03:55] out of that and we realised that actually there isn’t anybody [00:04:00] speaking for private dentistry. The BDA speak for dentistry and private [00:04:05] dentistry as part of it. But when you start drilling down into the intricacies of of what [00:04:10] we do in dentistry. Private dentistry didn’t have any [00:04:15] specific representation. And the problems that we had were [00:04:20] entirely down to the fact that we weren’t then supported in any way apart from furlough, which [00:04:25] of course, we’re now paying back, aren’t we, with with higher tax rates.

Simon Thackeray: And we could get the the [00:04:30] bounce back loans. But there was nothing else. There was no information coming out fast [00:04:35] enough. And I realised that there probably wasn’t any information, but it it made [00:04:40] us realise that we needed something in place to look at the representation for private dentists, [00:04:45] and was the intention for it to continue after, you know, [00:04:50] Covid initially all you could see was Covid. It was, how do we get everybody back [00:04:55] to it? How do we keep our businesses running? How do we look after our patients? What’s the patient safety issue here? But [00:05:00] then we realised that as we look more into it, this would continue [00:05:05] because of the things that were so allied to, you know, the GDC, [00:05:10] what was their remit in Covid, what was the Cqc’s remit in Covid? [00:05:15] And of course, as a private organisation, you’re not it’s not in your lane to [00:05:20] be discussing NHS contracts. Yeah. So, you know, do [00:05:25] we have to have a position on that. And we tried to keep away from, from, you [00:05:30] know, the NHS side of it if we could, but we realised that the NHS side was actually what was potentially [00:05:35] stopping us working because everybody would listen to the, [00:05:40] the authority of the Dental Leaders and the Dental Leaders [00:05:45] were seen to be people like the the office of the Chief Dental Officer. So by default [00:05:50] the GDC would listen to that, the CQC would listen to that and then we would be [00:05:55] governed, if you like, by that. Although in reality were we. But did [00:06:00] any of us actually want to take that legal risk?

Payman Langroudi: There was a vacuum, there was a vacuum. There was a [00:06:05] huge vacuum. I think the stress tested the professional, stress tested the the country. [00:06:10] Right?

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And every country for that matter. I mean, talking to friends who live abroad, there [00:06:15] were different approaches. Mhm. Um, whether it was down to lockdown vaccinations [00:06:20] um.

Simon Thackeray: Or non lockdown as some countries actually.

Payman Langroudi: Non lockdown Sweden [00:06:25] and all that. Yeah. Um how, how quickly people were made [00:06:30] to feel like outcasts if they didn’t follow the. Yeah the, the [00:06:35] sort of the government line and how quickly we all fell into place. And if you.

Simon Thackeray: Questioned [00:06:40] it in any way. Yeah. You were suddenly some kind of outlier. And either, [00:06:45] you know, somebody who would deny the existence of it. And, you know, we did get a lot of pushback [00:06:50] from some people when we were we were trying to get I remember a lot of the work that we [00:06:55] were doing, and Dom Joly did an awful lot of research. [00:07:00] I have never seen anybody with a capacity to research and read around a subject. Hyper [00:07:05] focussed, laser focussed and, you know, trying to get people [00:07:10] back to work and coming up with a, a pragmatic [00:07:15] way of doing it that wasn’t ridiculously onerous. And as it turns out, I think we were [00:07:20] probably looking back now, we were probably quite over the top with what we ended [00:07:25] up having to do, but we didn’t know that at the time. Yeah. Um, but [00:07:30] but having people criticise us and saying that, you know, we were potentially playing games with people’s [00:07:35] lives and we actually didn’t know, you know, did we need FFP three. [00:07:40] Did we need all that barrier stuff? Was it over the top? I [00:07:45] mean.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting because in Germany, one of my colleagues said the practices were legally [00:07:50] mandated to stay open. Yeah, exactly.

Simon Thackeray: So they had to stay open. [00:07:55] So did they have all the PPE? Is that why did the Germans have it? And we couldn’t get any. [00:08:00] But I we actually looked at this and Tiff Tiff Qureshi’s got a lot of contacts [00:08:05] um, abroad abroad. And he was we had this big list of what other [00:08:10] countries were doing, and I’d forgotten that Germany would were staying [00:08:15] open. They had to stay. But we seem to be it was almost like dentistry [00:08:20] had been forgotten and that the NHS was so focussed [00:08:25] on the the pandemic aspect which it needed to. [00:08:30] And, you know, we can get on to whether the, whether the, the NHS is, is funded [00:08:35] appropriately, was it funded appropriately to survive a pandemic anyway. Um, [00:08:40] and was it planned, you know, did did the right people plan [00:08:45] the right stuff and did we have enough PPE? Because we knew a pandemic was going to be coming [00:08:50] because we’d had work. We’d had pandemic planning probably ten years previously for a flu [00:08:55] epidemic. Um, but that all seemed to then [00:09:00] just go by the wayside and as if to say, oh, well, we didn’t see this coming. And [00:09:05] dentistry just seemed to be like, okay, we’ll just forget about dentistry because nobody’s going to die from [00:09:10] dental problems. Well, actually, some people did. Yeah. And there [00:09:15] was this huge issue of a lack of a [00:09:20] fundamental, basic part of healthcare because you could gain access to your doctor [00:09:25] somehow.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. Yes. A lot of it was the online stuff. But, you [00:09:30] know, dentistry is a bit difficult to do online. You know, show us your teeth. You can’t [00:09:35] trust a patient sometimes to get the camera in the right place to show you the teeth. So I’m not sure how we were going [00:09:40] to do these kind of online things. And then fundamentally, all you can do is write a Prescription. [00:09:45] And of course, then it was it was interesting that what two years later, [00:09:50] we were all shouted at because the amount of antibiotic prescriptions had gone up. [00:09:55] Well, if all you can tell us to do is write an antibiotic prescription [00:10:00] or refer them into a an emergency centre that [00:10:05] isn’t actually open in some respects, in some in some areas. What do you expect? [00:10:10] Tell us to do something. We are actually I think we were as a profession. We were very obedient. Whether [00:10:15] or not you think that means we were very sheep like and we followed it without questioning [00:10:20] it. I think to a degree we did, and there were people out there questioning it quite a [00:10:25] lot more than even the Bapd did. You know, because we did question [00:10:30] a lot of of why why is that? You know, there is no research.

Simon Thackeray: We realise [00:10:35] the research is being written as a result of what is happening. So you can’t react [00:10:40] to it because you haven’t got any research. But some of the things just seemed illogical. Yeah. [00:10:45] And, you know, to actually close down a fundamental part of the nation’s [00:10:50] healthcare overnight. Yeah. It was the 23rd of March, [00:10:55] wasn’t it? It was a Monday. You shut. Bang. And I [00:11:00] remember that day vividly because I we’d got everybody into work and [00:11:05] I was it was the most emotional thing I think [00:11:10] I’ve ever had to deal with in my professional life, because I wasn’t sure [00:11:15] if I would have a business when I came back. And if I would see any [00:11:20] of these people again, who as a team, you know, I care for my team. I’ve got a very [00:11:25] good relationship with them. And one of my therapists came up to me and she [00:11:30] said, I don’t know how you did that. I don’t know how you didn’t burst into tears through that. And I said, I [00:11:35] don’t know either. And burst into tears, um, because, you [00:11:40] know, there were so many unknowns. And I’m not saying we were unique. You will have had the same kind [00:11:45] of thing as a business owner.

Payman Langroudi: Think of it as exactly the same thing. One of the hardest days of my business life, [00:11:50] and we got all the team together and said before furlough was announced and [00:11:55] we said, look, either everyone has to take a 50% pay cut or we have to lose [00:12:00] half the team. Yeah, because there was no furlough. Our turnover went from I think back [00:12:05] then it was like £30,000 a day to zero. Yeah. Overnight. Yeah. Um, [00:12:10] but I think it’s symptomatic of the fact that, you know, we complain about it all the time as a [00:12:15] profession of where dentistry is as a priority in this country. [00:12:20] And is it possible to change that? [00:12:25] I don’t think we should ever bank on any further cash. No. Centrally [00:12:30] coming to us? Absolutely not. You know, so there’s that. The resources, the resource, the amount of [00:12:35] money coming to us will no, not go up. It probably will go down. Yeah. And [00:12:40] so as a nation, we we as a as a as a population, [00:12:45] we’re not used to saving up for teeth. No. Whereas, you know, cousins [00:12:50] in America, cousins in Germany, wherever they are, you know, your kids braces are something [00:12:55] you think about from the day the kids are born. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: You’re trained.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so we can’t [00:13:00] overnight change things here because the system is set up in a particular way [00:13:05] whereby, for instance, my team don’t get dental insurance with their work. [00:13:10] You know, if there was no NHS, that that would be one of the benefits of [00:13:15] work. And so it’s something that has to evolve. But, you know, if you were the king [00:13:20] of the world. Oh, God.

Simon Thackeray: I bet that would be an interesting concept. [00:13:25] There’d be some interesting things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. If outside of dentistry. [00:13:30] Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Let’s not talk.

Payman Langroudi: Politics. If you were the king of the world, how would you change [00:13:35] things? I mean, we’ve got the regulator.

Simon Thackeray: Okay. We. You have to start with the legislation. [00:13:40] You have to start with the way that dentistry is governed [00:13:45] and provided in this, in this country. And everything [00:13:50] comes from the Dentists Act, because without that, you know, you would just have a free [00:13:55] for all and anybody could practice dentistry. And that it came in as a result of the barber [00:14:00] surgeon kind of thing. The 1923, you know, formalising it. But you’ve got [00:14:05] an act that was written in 1984 and has barely been changed, [00:14:10] unless it’s been for the convenience of the government to bring things in, like registration of dental [00:14:15] nurses and DSPs. I don’t like the term DSPs, but they [00:14:20] change it when they need to change it. But what it hasn’t taken into [00:14:25] account is the way dentistry has developed in the last five [00:14:30] years, let alone the last 30, 40 years that the dentist act has been there. You [00:14:35] know, you have got remote working. I might not agree [00:14:40] with some of the things like remote monitoring of, um, ortho, ortho, but it’s [00:14:45] there and that then needs to be managed, governed [00:14:50] and regulated because otherwise you’ve got this. There’s [00:14:55] a lack of morale within the profession because all the GDC can police [00:15:00] are the people. It’s it has as registrants. It can’t really do a lot [00:15:05] about the other stuff that’s that’s outside its remit. And unless the [00:15:10] legislation has a change to allow it to deal with things [00:15:15] that currently are outside of its remit and also to deal with things in a more [00:15:20] modern manner, like fitness to practice, you’re still going to have these [00:15:25] these problems where the GDC is going to be seen as you know, [00:15:30] it’s it’s a leviathan. It’s a very, very slow thing to change. It’s I think [00:15:35] I’m quite confident. I’ve been quite confident just recently with the [00:15:40] the new incumbent at the GDC, Tom Whiting, and it’s he does seem to have [00:15:45] a completely different view to previous people [00:15:50] in that position, and I’m quietly hopeful. It’s still early days, but [00:15:55] I’m quietly hopeful that he will. He’ll bring this modernisation [00:16:00] kind of thing into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Because, look, the law [00:16:05] is always a bit slower than events.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I was listening to your episode, I should say you’re [00:16:10] a podcast host as well for the APD podcast. What’s it called?

Simon Thackeray: Private matters. Private matters. Private [00:16:15] matters.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I was listening to an episode of that where you guys were discussing Smiledirectclub. Yeah. And [00:16:20] you know, the law written in 1984, or let alone 1920 or [00:16:25] whatever. Yeah. Just hasn’t accounted for, you know, things [00:16:30] like that. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: It wasn’t a thing. We’d only just got ZX spectrum, for God’s sake, aren’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:16:35] So? So then that goes down to either it needs to change in a, in a way that is, [00:16:40] is sort of it needs to be lighter touch. Yeah. So you know or [00:16:45] it needs to be quicker to be able to change it. And I mean [00:16:50] would you, would you say it’s a problem with the country as a whole. [00:16:55]

Simon Thackeray: The, the country as.

Payman Langroudi: In, as in are we slow to move [00:17:00] as a country.

Simon Thackeray: I don’t think we necessarily slow to move as a country that slow.

Payman Langroudi: Were we [00:17:05] with the vaccines?

Simon Thackeray: No. No. I think when we need to move quick, we do move [00:17:10] quick. And I think sometimes we might move too quick in some things. Um, and, you know, particularly [00:17:15] when we, you know, we’re still a bit of a warmongering nation and we can move quite quickly when we don’t [00:17:20] like what somebody else is doing somewhere else. But the the priority [00:17:25] of dentistry, I think, needs to be higher in everybody’s [00:17:30] mind. And that’s not just in dentists because it’s all it’s it’s the thing that we always [00:17:35] talk about. My wife’s always saying, God, you only ever talk about dentistry. You’re always, ever doing something about dentistry. [00:17:40] So it’s high in my priorities. Is it high in Mrs. Smith’s down the Road, [00:17:45] who is currently juggling all the other cost of living expenses [00:17:50] and has never really had the [00:17:55] the exposure to the education that they need? And I don’t mean that in a way that they’re not [00:18:00] educated enough, because there’s some very educated people who know very little about the teeth and how to look [00:18:05] after them. Yeah. But I think as a priority, when you’ve got a finite amount of [00:18:10] money and it’s a state run system, you have to look at [00:18:15] how that money is spent appropriately. And is it appropriate to provide [00:18:20] so much for people who can afford to pay [00:18:25] for the treatment? And again, it’s it’s a bit of a, you know, it might make [00:18:30] some of the NHS people listening to this annoyed. But I actually do think [00:18:35] the time has come for us to really face up to the fact that a core service that’s appropriately [00:18:40] funded and targeted at those people who can’t afford [00:18:45] private dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of like the urgent care centres they put together during Covid. Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:50]

Simon Thackeray: They should have stayed. Yeah they should. But the problem with that is you’ll [00:18:55] remember when when we had the dental access centres, when Tony Blair promised [00:19:00] everybody have access. And the cost of a single patient visit [00:19:05] was so high compared to the cost of a visit [00:19:10] to a general dentist on the high street. Why? Well, because of all the systems that [00:19:15] are put around it. The fact that it’s a bureaucratically run system. I mean, a dental practice is largely [00:19:20] now a building surrounded with reams and reams of red tape. But [00:19:25] when you start to make it a a situation that’s run by. [00:19:30]

Payman Langroudi: Government facilities.

Simon Thackeray: A government facility. Oh my God, yes, you are going to pay £48 for a [00:19:35] light bulb to be changed, whereas I’m going to send one of the girls down to it. I can’t send them to Wilko any more. But you’d like to [00:19:40] go and get us a light bulb. £0.49 and I’ll change it. You know, when you’ve got [00:19:45] all these layers and layers of bureaucracy and procurement? Yeah, it increases [00:19:50] the costs massively. So the value isn’t there. Plus, in systems [00:19:55] like that, you tend to have people who are salaried. And as soon as you introduce a salaried system into [00:20:00] dentistry, you can watch the access go down. Because effectively this is what’s happened [00:20:05] with, you know, Covid as as the dentists were given certain [00:20:10] amounts of money for different amounts of targeted, you know, to hit, [00:20:15] they would hit those targets. There’s no incentive then to work beyond those targets. So [00:20:20] once you, you know, you’re you’re employed to do eight hours of work a day. You’ll do [00:20:25] eight hours of work in a day. Will you see the same number of patients in those eight hours? Or [00:20:30] will you then suddenly start to do the dentistry at the speed which we were taught to [00:20:35] do it at, and spend half an hour on a new patient consultation, or 50 minutes or an hour [00:20:40] like I have to spend an hour now.

Simon Thackeray: You know, you’ll work [00:20:45] differently so your output goes down. So of course, what happens? Your productivity goes down. [00:20:50] The cost to the government will of course go up per patient visit. So [00:20:55] I think there needs to be a and there needs to be an [00:21:00] appetite, I think for people to discuss more [00:21:05] publicly core service. And I think a lot of people have shied away from it because [00:21:10] I fundamentally believe in the NHS. I’m 100% private, but I believe in the concept [00:21:15] of the NHS to pick up and to care for those who [00:21:20] can’t necessarily pay for it themselves, and a Dental system as a as an emergency [00:21:25] C core. Define it. Write it down on a piece of paper. We used to [00:21:30] have the statement of dental remuneration. You knew what you could do and you knew what you could do it on what tooth. [00:21:35] Whereas now it’s this nebulous thing. All this is necessary to maintain a patient’s [00:21:40] dental health. Well, what does that mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it means nothing.

Simon Thackeray: It [00:21:45] means nothing. But it also means everything. Potentially, you could find yourself in a horrific [00:21:50] situation. And I think that’s why now, when when you look at the fact that the output has gone [00:21:55] down so much, I mean, we’re talking about what 85% of, of [00:22:00] the output that it was before Covid. And a lot of that is because [00:22:05] the contract is now being operated, how [00:22:10] the contract was probably always meant to operate, and that you did have to take on these high needs [00:22:15] patients and you couldn’t necessarily cherry pick the the regular ones. [00:22:20] There is no registration, and it fits the government’s agenda to not tell anybody [00:22:25] that there’s no registration. And because nobody leaves the dentist when they say there’s no registration, because all the [00:22:30] all the patients think they registered, they want to be registered and they would like [00:22:35] to be registered. So if you operate the contract [00:22:40] the way it’s now being operated, you’re going to get this massive drop in [00:22:45] an output. So you’re now measuring the wrong things because you know you shouldn’t [00:22:50] work to targets. The GDC actually makes a stipulation that you shouldn’t have any incentives [00:22:55] or disincentives to work in a certain way, yet they end the entire NHS is [00:23:00] based on hitting targets. Well, is that not an incentive or a disincentive one way [00:23:05] or the other? Look, the.

Payman Langroudi: Reason I ask you about the country as a whole is because, look, [00:23:10] I live here, so I choose I think this is the best place in the world to live. Yeah. So I don’t want to complain [00:23:15] about it. No, but you can find the best [00:23:20] restaurants in the world. In this country? Yeah. Yeah. The [00:23:25] best universities in the world, in this country that you can find the best of [00:23:30] everything. The best dentists in the world. You can find them in this country.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:23:35] if you walk into a random restaurant in this country or a random [00:23:40] education, a school. Yeah, yeah. You can find the best schools in the world in this country. But if you [00:23:45] walk into a random school in this country, the standard will be slightly lower than [00:23:50] the ones you find in comparable countries. Yeah. Now. [00:23:55] And so as a country, we have this skew of the very best. And in the middle, the [00:24:00] middle is, is, is is missing sort of thing. And there’s a bunch at the bottom. [00:24:05] And dentistry has been set up that way as well interestingly.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah I think you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:24:10] got the very best and then we’ve got the NHS underneath. And no disrespect to the NHS. I mean, I couldn’t [00:24:15] manage as an NHS dentist myself. No. Did you ever I mean, [00:24:20] you’re a Yorkshireman. I don’t know. Am I making any assumptions here? Yeah. Please do. Did you. Did [00:24:25] you start left leaning? And now you’re right leaning as a as a person politically. I think I’ve.

Simon Thackeray: Always [00:24:30] been more right leaning, but with the. That [00:24:35] depends how right you you look at it. Because my [00:24:40] family are all working class. I’m the first person in my immediate family, the second person after [00:24:45] my cousin, but the first person to to do a professional degree. Um, [00:24:50] my dad worked his way through from an office post boy [00:24:55] to the director, the financial director of a big refractories company. So he’d gone [00:25:00] from the proper, you know, the lowest of the low job to running [00:25:05] the actual company and a big company at that. So I think I would obviously [00:25:10] picked up some of the right leaning things there. But I’ve still got that socialist [00:25:15] side of me that I believe that you’ve got to look after those less [00:25:20] fortunate. And it’s my [00:25:25] you know, we’ve been given a gift as dentist to be able to look after another [00:25:30] human being. And there’s probably no bigger privilege than doing that, looking after somebody else and [00:25:35] making them better in some way. And I don’t think we should ever forget that. [00:25:40] But I think my my leftness has gradually [00:25:45] disappeared as I’ve seen how badly it’s been used. But that doesn’t [00:25:50] mean to say I don’t support it, and I don’t still have those, you know, those [00:25:55] those feelings. But I would say now I’m strongly in the centre, right. [00:26:00] Not, you know, not radically, but I [00:26:05] can, you know, you’ve got to be careful when you say these things sometimes because, um, you know, you do these little, [00:26:10] that little square thing where it puts you, it puts a spot where your political leanings [00:26:15] are. And I’ve always just been to the right.

Payman Langroudi: Just I think even even [00:26:20] staunch conservatives would say this. They care about those less fortunate. It’s just about how you manage [00:26:25] that. It’s how you do it.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think that we still have the same social mobility now as we [00:26:30] had when your dad went from the bottom to the top? But instinctively I think not. [00:26:35]

Simon Thackeray: I think it’s a different social mobility. I think there’s there’s a [00:26:40] lot. What?

Payman Langroudi: You can become an Instagram influencer.

Simon Thackeray: And is that is. Yeah. [00:26:45] It’s a different it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Democratisation of that. Right.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. That’s that’s a different [00:26:50] way of looking at it I think the traditional way where you would, you know, [00:26:55] my dad was an orphan.

Payman Langroudi: Someone like your dad today in the same situation.

Simon Thackeray: Would. [00:27:00]

Payman Langroudi: Struggle to do what he did.

Simon Thackeray: Absolutely. Even even it is sad because even as [00:27:05] driven as he was, he created certain chances and there were certain [00:27:10] chances there for him to actually take. And I don’t think they are the same as they were. [00:27:15] And I think some of this is, you know, the the poles [00:27:20] have got further apart, I think in some ways. And you just sort of said it there. You’ve got the best restaurants [00:27:25] in the world and you could have the worst and we’ve actually got this massive spread. Yeah. I [00:27:30] don’t think it’s unique. I’m not travelled enough to know enough about [00:27:35] many other countries, but I’d say that we’ve got a very, very big spread [00:27:40] of of poverty to affluence. [00:27:45]

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, and whether that came from the old feudal system or whatever, [00:27:50] I think in the US they have a similar issue. Yeah. But many European countries, the middles populated. [00:27:55] Yes. And they don’t. By the way, uh, we have a distributor in Sweden, [00:28:00] and when he came over said, oh, let’s go to this private members club. And [00:28:05] I said, do you guys have these? And he went, it definitely wouldn’t work over there. I said, why? [00:28:10] And he said, because there’s no cachet in saying you can do something that [00:28:15] someone else can’t in Sweden, whereas here it’s almost like a cachet [00:28:20] thing, you know, like.

Simon Thackeray: This is where you still get to the fact we’ve still got a class system. Mhm. And [00:28:25] you know, I know a lot of what has been talked about recently with regards [00:28:30] the working people and the budget, and [00:28:35] is that a hangover from what’s left of the class system [00:28:40] because you still have this, you know, is there a working class. Yes. [00:28:45] Is there a middle class. Yes. Is there an elite. Yes. [00:28:50]

Payman Langroudi: Is there.

Simon Thackeray: Mobility. Is there mobility between? I think it’s quite difficult, I. [00:28:55]

Payman Langroudi: Think not, it’s not as obvious in the US. It’s purely about money. Yeah. If you’ve got the money. [00:29:00]

Simon Thackeray: You can be in whatever class.

Payman Langroudi: Whoever you want to be.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Here it’s not purely about money. It’s [00:29:05] a funny thing. It’s about this other thing also like which school you went to, your, sort of your, [00:29:10] your accent, uh, you know, that sort of thing, you know? And it’s a funny [00:29:15] thing about, like, you know, are we going to get out of that? Do we want to get out of that? I mean, is [00:29:20] that what is that what defines.

Simon Thackeray: This totally equitable society? Yeah. That, [00:29:25] you know, there are there are.

Payman Langroudi: Anarchist.

Simon Thackeray: I do yes, I am [00:29:30] a bit of a monarchist. Um, I do believe that. I think that’s the way I was [00:29:35] brought up. I think it’s the way I was brought up. And it’s the it’s. I do like traditions, [00:29:40] and I do like the, the patriotic side of, [00:29:45] you know, as you said, Britain has got the best of a lot of things. It’s also got the best [00:29:50] at organising events like Jubilees. Nobody else does it like we do. And, you [00:29:55] know, part of that comes from the fact that on the other side of my, my family, there’s a [00:30:00] big military background. So when I was young, I would have the stories [00:30:05] from my grandma, whose husband was a Royal Marine, and she’d dance [00:30:10] with Lord Mountbatten and the Emperor of Japan when she was with him on the royal yacht. [00:30:15] So stories like that they may be out of date in [00:30:20] today’s society. Out of date?

Payman Langroudi: Simon, you know I’m from Iran. Yeah. Well, and [00:30:25] the national myth in Iran, every kid is taught we had an empire, [00:30:30] even though our empire was 2000 years ago. Now the UK, [00:30:35] the empire was just the last generation.

Simon Thackeray: I was going to say it’s not that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: It’s nothing. It’s [00:30:40] literally your grandfather’s time. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Britain ruled the world in your grandfather’s [00:30:45] time. So I wouldn’t worry about that. You know, as I say, we’re still talking about it 2000 years later.

Simon Thackeray: I [00:30:50] suppose I suppose we can carry on then.

Payman Langroudi: But but but there is a downside to it as well. So, [00:30:55] for instance, I mean, whether or not you agree with Brexit. Yeah. I think it came down to two things. One, [00:31:00] immigration. Yeah for sure. But two, this kind of these stories that you’re telling [00:31:05] about your grandfather talking about the war and which, [00:31:10] you know, by the way, of course he can talk about the war if he was in it. Yeah, but that [00:31:15] sort of general notion that we can’t trust the Germans and the French, um, because of what [00:31:20] happened in the 40s or 30s or.

Simon Thackeray: Whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Was one of the drivers, one [00:31:25] of the.

Simon Thackeray: Drivers of Brexit. I think I think you’re probably right that there is that there’s [00:31:30] that ingrained history, isn’t there? And it [00:31:35] depends how you were, I suppose, how you were brought up. I mean, I was I [00:31:40] was quite open about the whole Brexit thing. Um, and I [00:31:45] think my main issue with it was the setting of our laws abroad. [00:31:50] Nothing to do with immigration because, you know, you’ve got to accept this country is all the richer for [00:31:55] the kind of immigration that we’ve had. Yeah. And I think, you know, [00:32:00] without getting into a lot of the, the deep politics of that, the [00:32:05] the type of immigration that came back in the day when it was, um, [00:32:10] you know, when we were perhaps a little bit less [00:32:15] considerate in the way that we were seen to, to allow [00:32:20] immigration. And by that, I mean taking people out of the countries and bringing them here. Yeah. Um, [00:32:25] the country is better for that. I think when you you [00:32:30] bring in a situation where you look at the size of the country and the infrastructure of the country [00:32:35] and the amount of money that’s in the country, and this is where dentistry sort of fits in as well. Can [00:32:40] you cope with unlimited immigration [00:32:45] when you’ve only got an island? It’s not like we’ve got a bit we can expand into a bit more continent [00:32:50] somewhere. At what point do you not have enough room for [00:32:55] all the, you know, all the immigration that could come in now? [00:33:00] I think we’ve got plenty of room. I don’t know that we’ve got plenty of infrastructure, [00:33:05] and I think that’s the problem. You’ve got schools that are overflowing, the NHS [00:33:10] is failing. This is not all down to immigration. This is down to the multitude of things.

Payman Langroudi: If you look at it from [00:33:15] a financial you’re looking at there, you’re looking at it from a financial perspective. Yeah. When we went [00:33:20] into Iraq, we made money.

Simon Thackeray: By.

Payman Langroudi: Doing that. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Oh yeah. [00:33:25] Wars that we’ve always made money out of wars. I mean, the or.

Payman Langroudi: Afghanistan [00:33:30] or whatever. Yeah. Now part of that is now those people are having to get up and come. Yeah. [00:33:35] So the net net result of the amount of money we made by BP now having all those [00:33:40] contracts or whatever.

Simon Thackeray: They’ve kept it.

Payman Langroudi: And, and and now the issue of these people, these poor people [00:33:45] having to come here. And I understand what you’re saying about resource, but from a European [00:33:50] perspective, we’re not taking anywhere near as many as all the other European countries. No.

Simon Thackeray: But the [00:33:55] other thing is, they’re those countries that have those companies that have made the money, have kept the money. [00:34:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s going back to the system, not.

Simon Thackeray: Gone into go back to the top heavy.

Payman Langroudi: Bottom heavy. [00:34:05]

Simon Thackeray: System. I mean, you you’ve broadened it there almost into [00:34:10] the fact that there’s the the class system within companies and that you’ve got these [00:34:15] ultra, ultra wealthy companies like you had the ultra wealthy families. Yeah, [00:34:20] yeah. Um, and, you know, it’s all pervasive. It’s across everything. You look at [00:34:25] Amazon. I mean, Amazon came from nowhere, somebody’s garage. And [00:34:30] then in the last sort of, what, 30 years? It’s turned into the biggest company on [00:34:35] the planet. And listen.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying I don’t understand, I fully understand. I did [00:34:40] my jobs in Kent. Right. And I recently went back to Kent. [00:34:45] And I couldn’t believe the demographic change here. I mean, back then, [00:34:50] you hardly saw a foreign face in the town that I, you know, Whitstable or wherever I [00:34:55] was. And now there’s loads and loads of foreign faces. And I can understand the population [00:35:00] getting a bit nervous when, when the doctor can’t, can’t give them an appointment and they fully [00:35:05] get it. And by the way, back when we had the race riots thing. Yeah, my, my my [00:35:10] biggest thing was what is the actual concern of [00:35:15] these people? Rather than saying, oh, these are bigots. Yeah, yeah. The actual concern of those [00:35:20] people is, let’s face it. I mean, you as a family, you’ve managed to progress. [00:35:25] Yeah. Um, as a person, you know, you’re you’re you’re a linchpin of society in Mansfield [00:35:30] or now and hopefully in dentistry. Right. But there’s a there’s a huge number of people [00:35:35] I don’t know the number, but let’s call it 10% of the population who got nothing out [00:35:40] of globalism. Yeah. Nothing out of being part [00:35:45] of the European Union. Yeah. Who? That. That population needs that that concern [00:35:50] needs to be addressed. The one where the guy goes out in the street and starts firebombing [00:35:55] some hotel. Rather than saying he’s a bigot. Yeah. We understand. What is [00:36:00] it? Why this this guy hasn’t been able to progress and come back to that whole thing about [00:36:05] the bottom layer not getting the opportunities in this country.

Simon Thackeray: You’re [00:36:10] probably right, but I don’t know how you would solve something like that because you’re talking, you know, [00:36:15] and you’re also talking about the, the it’s very [00:36:20] difficult to say it without being derogatory, but often those people are not as [00:36:25] intelligent and able to look at the bigger picture, where we can take that picture apart [00:36:30] and we can analyse it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very easy for me and you when we’re benefiting from it, right? But when [00:36:35] you’re not benefiting, but.

Simon Thackeray: We’ve benefited from it right from the beginning [00:36:40] of our education, because the way that we’ve been exposed to education, I had a state education. [00:36:45] Um, and, you know, I wouldn’t have said I was [00:36:50] particularly outstanding in, in anything, but I listened and I learnt [00:36:55] and I wanted to although you didn’t think of it at the time, you wanted to [00:37:00] learn And I do think that the chances I was given is because I wanted to learn, not [00:37:05] because of any other reason other than me. I’ve not been pushed into anything, and [00:37:10] I think there are some people who are maybe not pushed in the same way, maybe because their [00:37:15] parents have not had the chances. But then my dad didn’t necessarily [00:37:20] have the chances, but he made me, I suppose, have the chances [00:37:25] by, you know, preparing me mentally for [00:37:30] learning. And but I think when you’ve got a very simplistic view of the [00:37:35] world and you can’t see the intricacies and the subtleties of how everything interacts, you do [00:37:40] have a very basic view of it and that it can be then, [00:37:45] you know, down to that person’s taking my job. That person is taking [00:37:50] more than they’re putting in. We shouldn’t allow them to do that. And it’s [00:37:55] it’s massively oversimplistic, but it’s possibly the most that that person can understand [00:38:00] the world. That’s their view of the world. And I think [00:38:05] the problem is it’s not just restricted to that level of, of of if you like the.

Payman Langroudi: Old enough [00:38:10] like me to remember. Do you remember single mums?

Simon Thackeray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Single mums. It’s them.

Simon Thackeray: It [00:38:15] was their fault. It was. I’ve lost count of the number of people’s fault that the, the [00:38:20] crisis in, in, you know, society has been blamed on.

Payman Langroudi: But constantly looking [00:38:25] down here at someone less fortunate. Yeah. Whereas as you say Amazon doesn’t pay tax. [00:38:30] Right. Or you know, if you look it up there’s plenty of abuse going on that isn’t highlighted. Yeah. [00:38:35] Because it’s much easier to sort of. It is.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. Because they can’t always fight back. Yeah. [00:38:40] And that’s it. And they can’t put themselves together in a way that allows [00:38:45] them to then present a concerted, concerted effort. [00:38:50] But I think that’s how society changes. And, you know, this is is this [00:38:55] any different to the 1920s when you had the ultra rich [00:39:00] families, you had the the middle section families and those [00:39:05] who were devastatingly poor and were wracked with disease. Now we’ve probably got rid [00:39:10] of the wracked with disease part of it. But actually, if you look at the the spread of that, that [00:39:15] money, it’s probably in exactly the same way. You’re probably right. It’s probably, you [00:39:20] know, society probably finds a way. And is that down to just the fact that [00:39:25] fundamentally we’re just animals and that we have these basic instincts and that [00:39:30] everything is based around the sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of the competitive nature of.

Simon Thackeray: Existing.

Payman Langroudi: On this planet. [00:39:35] The one plant outgrowing the other one?

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. You do wonder. And then and then you [00:39:40] have, you know, the predatory species that comes along and but then not all predators last [00:39:45] all the time. True. You know people well, not people, but extinction [00:39:50] occurs and changes occur. But you’re still then get a new [00:39:55] order. I don’t think we’ve ever had. I don’t know if the world can exist [00:40:00] as a, you know, a biological structure if everything [00:40:05] was equal. It has those balances. It has the predators that destroy something [00:40:10] it will always have. I mean, I, I used to say probably when I was younger, what [00:40:15] would be interesting is if you redistributed every penny [00:40:20] that everybody earned to every person [00:40:25] in the country.

Payman Langroudi: True socialism, like.

Simon Thackeray: Absolute.

Payman Langroudi: Proper communism.

Simon Thackeray: And proper [00:40:30] communism. And then just let the system [00:40:35] see what happened. And I think you would have at the end of maybe [00:40:40] 2 or 3 generations, with a few exceptions, [00:40:45] the people that had the money originally would probably have got it back. The people who didn’t have it [00:40:50] still wouldn’t have any, but then you’d have some in the middle who would have had the chance to do [00:40:55] something different and taken that chance and grasped it and made [00:41:00] something different of themselves. But I think fundamentally, the balance probably wouldn’t change [00:41:05] all that much, and that the rich would still be rich, the poor would still be poor, and those in the middle still be complaining [00:41:10] about paying too much tax.

Payman Langroudi: But then, look, if your worldview [00:41:15] is that things have always been this way, you wouldn’t be this cat who’s [00:41:20] involved in politics Dental politics. You know, like you, you know, it’s [00:41:25] important that, you know, we could just sit and talk like a talking shop or [00:41:30] whether we can actually make a difference. And I get it. I mean, I’m not involved [00:41:35] in Dental politics here, but I do get it that it’s frustrating to be involved in Dental politics. [00:41:40] Yeah, because of how slow things are to move. Now, where did [00:41:45] that start for you? I mean, you were, I’m guessing just a regular dentist like the rest of us. At what point [00:41:50] did you start getting involved in, you know, how do we do things? And how can I talk up on this? [00:41:55]

Simon Thackeray: I’d always been involved with the BDA. Since when? As a member, since qualifying.

Payman Langroudi: As [00:42:00] a member.

Simon Thackeray: So I’d been a member there and I did a little bit of teaching [00:42:05] in Sheffield back in the the late 90s.

Payman Langroudi: And the university at the university.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. Um, [00:42:10] and my boss there, a guy called Keith. [00:42:15] Figures. Um, he said, why don’t you come to one of the BDA committee meetings? [00:42:20] Council meetings? Because, you know, it would probably be good for you to to understand a [00:42:25] bit about what was going on. And I just thought, yeah, I’ll go along. And that sort of started it. [00:42:30] The next thing was I ended up standing for the representative body as it was [00:42:35] then, and that’s when I started getting a little bit more interested in the [00:42:40] politics side of it. But one of the things that made [00:42:45] me try to get involved was for a while, I sat on the outside. [00:42:50] Prodding at people like [00:42:55] Eddie, Eddie Crouch, who was a fantastic guy, but I would product him [00:43:00] on things like GDP, UK. And he turned around to me one day and [00:43:05] he said, well, why don’t you just get involved? He said, because it’s all right. Sitting on the outside moaning. [00:43:10] Try and do something about it. So you do, [00:43:15] you get involved and then you realise just how bloody difficult it is. And you know, [00:43:20] sometimes when we criticise our Dental politicians, you need to spend [00:43:25] a little bit of time banging your head against the same brick walls as we’re banging our heads against [00:43:30] it to elicit change, because a lot of these things, they don’t want to change. [00:43:35] A lot of these things they can’t change. And then a [00:43:40] lot of the things other people want to change them in a different way, and you’ve got to come up with some [00:43:45] kind of of consensus. And I mean, as you know, as a dentist, put [00:43:50] a treatment plan in front of ten dentists and you’re going to get 45 [00:43:55] different treatment plans, aren’t you? There’s almost.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say 11, but 11. Yeah, but [00:44:00] there’s.

Simon Thackeray: Almost as many ways of solving the dental problems in this country. Yeah. So when you [00:44:05] then try to put that over, there’s all these different opinions. So they all [00:44:10] have to be matched. You’ve then got the fact that it’s okay as an organisation [00:44:15] agreeing what a policy would be. You’ve then got to sell that [00:44:20] to the Department of Health who are not actually in charge, because [00:44:25] the Treasury are the ones who tell them whether they’ve got the money or not. Actually.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: So, [00:44:30] you know, sometimes you’re dealing with you’re not actually dealing with the people who can make any difference. [00:44:35] And I think a lot of the, a lot of the dental politics, [00:44:40] when you get on a round table meeting, there’s a lot of agreement, [00:44:45] there’s an awful lot of agreement. And we agree on more than we disagree on. But [00:44:50] is the right person sat at the head of the table who can do something about it and actually [00:44:55] press the button and say, right, that’s going to change. And that’s not always the easiest [00:45:00] thing to do, because sometimes it’s trying to find that person who is the person who has control of it. [00:45:05] And often it’s the, um, you know, it’ll be the Treasury, but with [00:45:10] things like the GDC, if you wanted to get the GDC to change the GDC in [00:45:15] lots of respects would be happy to change, I think, because [00:45:20] they see their legislation as outdated. Who do you speak to and how much [00:45:25] of a priority is it for them when they’ve got other things on their, you know, in their portfolio [00:45:30] as ministers that, you know, they’re currently dealing with, you know, whatever other health problem [00:45:35] there is in that respect or any other treasury problem. So there’s so many things [00:45:40] vying for so many different people’s time.

Payman Langroudi: In my little world [00:45:45] of illegal teeth whitening. Sir Paul Beresford was very important. He was? Yeah, [00:45:50] he was very important in us as a profession, as a as a as a bleaching sector, [00:45:55] understanding how to affect change. Um, but, you know, it was coincidentally, [00:46:00] he was a dentist and an MP. Yeah. I mean, if we didn’t [00:46:05] have access to to someone who was a dentist, who was an MP, who would.

Simon Thackeray: Have taken that.

Payman Langroudi: On. I mean, [00:46:10] we got nowhere for years and years until he got interested in it. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: And even then, it hasn’t [00:46:15] gone quickly because although you maybe not seeing as many illegal whiteners [00:46:20] they’re still out there, they’re still misleading people.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, it was illegal for dentists to do whitening, [00:46:25] if you remember.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. I was going to say, I mean, the pressure that was put on for us to be able to do [00:46:30] it. Yeah. And the fact that, you know, it’s an accepted form of, [00:46:35] of treatment everywhere else in the world apart from here. Come on. You [00:46:40] know, but again, that just shows you the fact that we didn’t get a change particularly. Or [00:46:45] did we get a it was a statutory instrument adjustment to the dentist Act that allowed it I think [00:46:50] in 20 1212.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas if you remember the UpToDate case was 2001.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah, [00:46:55] it was 12 years. It was it was ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and as you say, I mean, we’ve [00:47:00] got the leftover of illegal whitening. Yeah. That the GDC isn’t dealing with. Well, trying, but not [00:47:05] very well.

Simon Thackeray: Yeah. I mean, the problem you have there is you’ll often have dentists that are saying, [00:47:10] you know, the a, r, f is a certain amount and it’ll go up if [00:47:15] they try and chase some of these illegal whiteners. And it’s actually difficult for them to [00:47:20] to hold a case sometimes because there’s got to have been a complaint. Is it an [00:47:25] appropriate use of registrant’s funds? I personally think it is. I think there’s a lot of things that the [00:47:30] GDC should do to put themselves in better light, to show us [00:47:35] as a profession that they’re protecting the the population and protecting patients.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:47:40] I’ve not I’ve not come across it in the UK, but in I happened in Italy. [00:47:45] There’s a major problem with non dentists doing actual dentistry really drilling. [00:47:50] And you know the question should you know it should come up. What would happen if people [00:47:55] started. I don’t know technicians or or non-qualified non-UK you know qualified [00:48:00] just coming in and just going in and starting drilling. Yeah. You’d imagine the GDC would have an interest in that. [00:48:05] You know, they would but but difficult to know for sure right. Well how how they [00:48:10] would. Yeah.

Simon Thackeray: Until it happens.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean do they have resource let’s say thousands [00:48:15] of these places started opening up. Um, it’s it’s a funny [00:48:20] situation we’re in. Let’s let’s get back to teeth. I mean, I didn’t realise our conversation was gonna go so far. [00:48:25] I was gonna say it did go off on a tangent.

Simon Thackeray: Though, didn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Your first job.

Simon Thackeray: First [00:48:30] job was as a vocational trainee as