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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Patricia Galuska onto the podcast. Patricia [00:00:55] is a practice manager in Warwick and I’m really happy to have a [00:01:00] practice manager on because I don’t think I’ve had many. And I [00:01:05] don’t know if you heard the episode we had with Mark Allen of Bupa, the CEO [00:01:10] of Bupa Dental, and he said that he’s a seasoned professional, like he’s [00:01:15] been in insurance, he’s been in this, that, and the other. Now he’s running 8000 people in [00:01:20] Bupa dental care. And he said the hardest job he’s come across as practice manager. All [00:01:25] the different roles you have to play with employed people, self-employed people, [00:01:30] patients, compliance and so on. And I’ve been following your content. [00:01:35] It’s one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because it’s really lovely content, very helpful content.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank [00:01:40] you.

Payman Langroudi: And I know how hard it is to make content alongside everything [00:01:45] else you’ve got to do.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but that’s a pleasure to have you. Um, I want [00:01:50] to kind of start with how did you end up in Dental?

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you. [00:01:55] It’s a pleasure to be here and thank you for having me. So before I came to [00:02:00] UK, I was only 19. I finished my A-levels and my goal [00:02:05] was always to be actually in the healthcare. So it was just to really [00:02:10] decide if I want to be a dental hygienist or doing the healthcare management. [00:02:15] Came to UK over the summer time just to work before I [00:02:20] wanted to start uni from Poland. From Poland. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it actual A-levels or Polish [00:02:25] equivalent of A-levels?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s equivalent, yes. Yes. So I was just basically [00:02:30] finishing that and then ready to go to uni. Yeah. Came here [00:02:35] with the goal just to work, save some money and go back. But I think after [00:02:40] a month we had the loss in our family. And I felt like a [00:02:45] different kind of responsibility over the night. Mhm. And I felt [00:02:50] this is the opportunity you can miss. And I decided I want to [00:02:55] stay. And I remember my mom’s reaction and my family was like, what? [00:03:00] They were not probably happy with it, but I’m so glad I stayed. [00:03:05] And I first started working as a barista and a waitress in [00:03:10] a local cafe in the morning, in the evening in the restaurant. After [00:03:15] a few years, I felt that I have to do something. I really want to be in [00:03:20] the health care. And I applied for a trainee dental nurse via CV and [00:03:25] got a job front of line. Now I’m in the clinic and [00:03:30] progressed from trainee dental nurse. Step by step to lead dental [00:03:35] nurse practice manager. And after that I moved to the business [00:03:40] manager where I’m currently at. Spi smiles.

Payman Langroudi: So this sort of [00:03:45] determination that you clearly have, would you say that sort of the inflection [00:03:50] point was when your uncle passed away?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Remember. [00:03:55]

Payman Langroudi: That person before.

Patrycja Galonzka: I was. I was really like, raised [00:04:00] in a way that discipline is something that takes you to where you want to be. Um, [00:04:05] but what he told me is the last time I remember seeing him go [00:04:10] and try. You can always come back. If you’re not going to try, you will never know. [00:04:15] And that’s my courage to today’s days to be honest. So [00:04:20] I feel like if you don’t try, you will never know if that’s something for you or not. And [00:04:25] I knew that healthcare was my goal, but doing the waitress and barista [00:04:30] job before it helped me as well to connect with different people, to [00:04:35] save them, to work under the pressure as well. So those skills were [00:04:40] very transferable to actually to the dental practice.

Payman Langroudi: We were talking about Prav before. Prav [00:04:45] is one of my cohosts. Yeah, he him and his brother. I don’t know if you’ve come across his brother Caleb.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:04:50] He’s Dental.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, both of them are most super successful people, and both [00:04:55] of them put working in their dad’s shop as one of the key things that makes [00:05:00] them successful. Because both of them can talk, right? They can.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talk.

Payman Langroudi: And not rubbish [00:05:05] either. Both of them can really hold the room. Yes. And Prav was telling me, you know, like when you when you sit behind [00:05:10] the till and you have to talk to the 78 year old lady who [00:05:15] just wants a conversation and the businessman who’s in a hurry, and the kid who’s come [00:05:20] to rob your store.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh my God. Yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: You just learn how to communicate with.

Patrycja Galonzka: People. [00:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you feel like that barista job was like an important point there, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. [00:05:30] Dealing with the.

Payman Langroudi: Public.

Patrycja Galonzka: Right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. And especially coming to UK when I was only 19. [00:05:35] Same again. You had to save people from a different groups youngsters [00:05:40] to the elderly people. But I always connected better with elderly people. I [00:05:45] don’t.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know why. Me too, me too. Me too. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How about when? When? If I said, how would you characterise your childhood [00:05:50] in Poland. Like what was the what was that like?

Patrycja Galonzka: It was definitely [00:05:55] my mom. She’s like a superwoman to me.

Patrycja Galonzka: What does she do?

Patrycja Galonzka: So she was [00:06:00] actually a dental nurse for some time as well. Yeah, yeah. And I remember going to [00:06:05] the clinic and then I was helping her with the X-ray cards. You [00:06:10] know, the paper records. She was so cool. Um, and then she had a shop like [00:06:15] a, you know, auto shop like the performs in here in, in UK. Um, [00:06:20] but yeah, she was just raising us in such a beautiful way with very, [00:06:25] with a high discipline, like be grateful for what you’ve got and [00:06:30] just never give up. And that’s what I’m trying to say to my daughter. Just never give up. [00:06:35] Try but never give up. And now when she reads the books, she gets frustrated [00:06:40] sometimes when she can’t read it. And I can hear it like, never give up, never give up. It’s [00:06:45] just so cute to see.

Patrycja Galonzka: Which year were you born?

Patrycja Galonzka: 92.

Patrycja Galonzka: 92.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:06:50]

Payman Langroudi: So. So you don’t remember the transition of Poland from communism? [00:06:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Not so much.

Payman Langroudi: Just stories, I guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Stories from my grandfathers. [00:07:00] So I remember going around like a lot of different people who actually [00:07:05] went through this experience and myself and a few other friends from school. [00:07:10] We actually combine all articles into like a one booklet. Really? Yeah, yeah, [00:07:15] I remember we won like a competition at school. And yeah, it was so, so [00:07:20] amazing to connect.

Patrycja Galonzka: With people in.

Payman Langroudi: That country. I’ve been there twice. Okay, both [00:07:25] times to Warsaw. But the, I think in the two times I went there was like maybe a four [00:07:30] year, five year gap. In that five years, the town completely changed.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, yes. [00:07:35]

Payman Langroudi: And now again, right now. Now it’s kind of experiencing a golden period, right. Did [00:07:40] you ever consider going back or. No.

Patrycja Galonzka: No.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think the first few years, probably [00:07:45] a few times, Because you just missed that home, your family.

Patrycja Galonzka: It [00:07:50] takes.

Payman Langroudi: Five years. I think when you move, it takes five years. I agree because for the first 2 or 3 [00:07:55] years, you fit in nowhere.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t fit in here. You don’t fit in there anymore.

Patrycja Galonzka: Correct.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:08:00] then after five years, you start thinking maybe this is home, you know, like a.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, [00:08:05] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Think.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think five years it’s. Yeah, I agree on that because [00:08:10] the first few years you just work hard, you try to enjoy the life and [00:08:15] you literally don’t know what you’re doing. And after that time, I’m like, oh, should I go back? Should I [00:08:20] stay? Then you question yourself. But when you hit that five years, you should [00:08:25] exactly know if you’re connected or actually, this is not for me. Maybe I should go back, [00:08:30] but for me, I knew it straight away. Really? After a few years that I want to stay [00:08:35] here. I love the diversity in this country. Lots of different backgrounds, [00:08:40] different people with different cultures, different languages. [00:08:45] I really, really love that.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re a curious person, you can’t.

Patrycja Galonzka: Be.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t be bored [00:08:50] here in that sense, right? There’s so much.

Patrycja Galonzka: To.

Payman Langroudi: Learn from so many.

Patrycja Galonzka: Different people. Exactly. [00:08:55]

Payman Langroudi: But so you know, your upbringing. Okay. A lot of discipline. All of that. And [00:09:00] then you come here and you work your butt off. Is there anything that you would change? Like when [00:09:05] you say you give your daughters the same lessons? Do you feel like maybe you didn’t live [00:09:10] your 19, 20, 21 year old because you know, that’s a, that should be a carefree [00:09:15] time, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And you were building and working and all of that. Were [00:09:20] you enjoying as well? Did you, did you, would you do it differently at all? And would you tell your daughter to do it differently? [00:09:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I would definitely didn’t want it or wouldn’t like [00:09:30] to change the way she wants to build her future. Yeah. Um, I can pass my lessons [00:09:35] to her. I mean, we go through this as adults as well. You know, when you have your [00:09:40] parents, they tell you, please do a, B, C, d.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: But you might do [00:09:45] it and you may not.

Patrycja Galonzka: But you might do.

Payman Langroudi: X, y.

Patrycja Galonzka: Z.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly what I’m what I’m the way [00:09:50] the reason I’m asking you is I get I get a lot of young dentists contact me.

Patrycja Galonzka: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: For advice. What [00:09:55] should I do next? Yeah, that’s all the time. I mean, I like five, [00:10:00] six times a week. I get someone asking me something like this. Yeah. And and, you know, [00:10:05] in your 20s, one of the things you’ve got is sort of you can’t, you can’t wait to get [00:10:10] things going. You know, you haven’t got patience.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes.

Payman Langroudi: And sometimes I’ve got a 26 year old [00:10:15] dentist asking, you know, I’m thinking about doing this, but what about doing that? And, and I think to myself, [00:10:20] if they do nothing for four years, then there’ll be a 30 year old [00:10:25] dentist. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: And yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: The time is the gold.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know, but there’ll be a 30.

Payman Langroudi: Year old and [00:10:30] there’s still a young dentist. Yeah. You could do literally nothing like sit on their hands for four years. Yeah. [00:10:35] I’m not saying do that. Yeah, but there’s an element of guilt [00:10:40] Built into a lot of people, especially like a dentist or someone from [00:10:45] age 14 has had to decide to become a dentist. Gcses, A levels, dental [00:10:50] school, all of that stuff. And so they’re so built on speed [00:10:55] that you’re thinking, hey, come on, man, go travel. And you know, like take a. [00:11:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Year out or.

Payman Langroudi: Something. Yeah. And enjoy life a little bit.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s not the end of [00:11:05] the world. You make a decision like your your uncle said to you, you make a decision. You decide to go off the [00:11:10] prosthetics, whatever it is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You can reverse the decision. It’s not the end of the world. It’s nothing. [00:11:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But people get themselves in a state about. I don’t think I’m doing enough and very [00:11:20] competitive. It’s quite hard to get in. So the people who get in are very competitive people to start with.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:11:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So so that’s what I’m kind of asking, you know, like, for instance, I was trying to tell my son, take [00:11:30] one year off between school and university and um.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. [00:11:35]

Payman Langroudi: He didn’t, he did it in the end. But why not? You know, like, what’s the point of all of this? Why [00:11:40] are you working here? So that you can take a year off. Somewhere along the [00:11:45] line.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think that’s what you have to make sure you understand as much. You’re [00:11:50] building something and you’ve got a passion for it. It’s amazing. But you shouldn’t sacrifice [00:11:55] the joy or the small moments that actually makes life real. Um, [00:12:00] I think it’s the balance. Yes. Because it’s so easy [00:12:05] to get trapped in that busy, you know, reactive mode. Bang bang [00:12:10] bang. Next. But I realised and I was there to, to be honest. Yeah. [00:12:15] Like constantly one qualification, next one. I want to be Leaders now. [00:12:20] I want to be practice manager. What’s next? But I think it’s very important sometimes [00:12:25] to stop and to reflect. Um, and I had someone actually who [00:12:30] told me that because I was constantly looking for new opportunities and he [00:12:35] told me, sit down and just think and see [00:12:40] what you’ve already achieved. And I remember that day I went to the coffee shop [00:12:45] and I opened my laptop and a pen and a paper, and I’ve listed exactly what I’ve managed [00:12:50] to do. Did my first article, which Daniel, was published in the bdj. [00:12:55] All my story and I’m like, actually, Patricia, well done to you. [00:13:00] But I.

BOTH: Think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good. That must have felt good.

BOTH: Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. I was so happy. And then [00:13:05] shortly after I just applied for the awards as well. Same again. Before I [00:13:10] was just too busy even thinking about it.

Payman Langroudi: What practice [00:13:15] manager of the year type thing?

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So I was highly commended last year. Yes. And [00:13:20] that was just oh, it was just like cherry on the cake for me. I [00:13:25] felt, oh, okay, that feels great. And yes, of course I want to grow more and [00:13:30] achieve more. But now it’s got that a different purpose. Yeah. [00:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you know about awards like people, some people think awards are really like, um, a negative [00:13:40] thing. Oh, really? Do you know about that?

Patrycja Galonzka: No. Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because, [00:13:45] you know, like, especially if it’s like, you know, they get like, oh, best dentist North. Yeah. [00:13:50]

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: The guy who wins the award isn’t the best dentist in the North. He isn’t. Yeah. [00:13:55] The best dentist in the north might be not even in the awards, because he’s too busy being the best dentist [00:14:00] in the North.

BOTH: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then. Then the award comes out and it says, best dentist North. This cat. [00:14:05] Yeah.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And so this cat was the best [00:14:10] award entry in the North.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Which that even that [00:14:15] doesn’t make him the best dentist in the competition. Yeah, yeah. Because the award entry says, oh, what are you doing for charity? What [00:14:20] are you doing for this? He’s, like, answered these questions really well.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Um, by [00:14:25] the way, I don’t mind. I like it, I think like it’s, uh, anything you can get for marketing [00:14:30] or for making yourself feel like you’ve gotten somewhere. Raise the standards in general. I get [00:14:35] all the plus side of it. Yes, but sometimes you got to understand the negatives. There’s a bunch of dentists who hate awards. [00:14:40] They hate the whole culture of awards.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know a few, [00:14:45] actually.

BOTH: Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And this is kind of the reason, right? The kind of [00:14:50] the reason is that, you know, when you say this is the best or something somewhere.

BOTH: Um, [00:14:55] it.

Payman Langroudi: Gets to dentists egos, I guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh very much. Ego is the thing in [00:15:00] dentistry.

BOTH: Yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh for.

BOTH: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Which I definitely want to get to one question though, before we do.

BOTH: Yes. [00:15:05]

Payman Langroudi: One of the things problems with our profession, I think, is that there isn’t [00:15:10] a very obvious career progression pathway. [00:15:15] Yeah. So but in your case, you’ve gone trainee dental [00:15:20] nurse, the lowest job in the practice.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: To the very top of the [00:15:25] practice. And if it was a corporate now you’d be looking at, I don’t know, a area manager or that [00:15:30] sort of thing.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But what about that? I mean, did you find it that it was [00:15:35] obvious what you had to do to progress? Did you find, like, I sometimes come across principals, [00:15:40] they say I want a nurse who isn’t ambitious. I want a nurse who’s always going [00:15:45] to just turn up, do her job and leave, and then come back the next day. And you.

BOTH: Know, I hear you, though.

Payman Langroudi: Which I don’t like [00:15:50] that way of thinking at all. But what I’m saying is, in our profession, especially in the DCP side, there [00:15:55] isn’t an obvious movement. Did you find that or were you lucky and [00:16:00] you found a place that was supportive of all of that?

BOTH: Um.

Patrycja Galonzka: I would say yes and no. I [00:16:05] think you need to understand your purpose. And sometimes it takes [00:16:10] time. So sometimes you have to do things that you’re not necessarily enjoy or [00:16:15] see as this is it. This is exactly what I want to do to the rest of my life. For example, [00:16:20] for me, that was even before going to dentistry. Barista. Waitress. [00:16:25]

BOTH: Mhm.

Patrycja Galonzka: I couldn’t really see a much of progression there, but I treat [00:16:30] it as a training. I can connect with the people. I know how to save them. [00:16:35] I can get my, you know, skills better. When I went to the dentistry, started [00:16:40] as a trainee dental nurse, but my goal it was being dental hygienist or [00:16:45] healthcare management, but I tried and I just explode [00:16:50] around me what was happening. And I knew I wanted to be somewhere where I [00:16:55] can help people from both sides, people who are working with me, [00:17:00] and also people who we serve. I think that finding your purpose, [00:17:05] the why is very, very important and have that somewhere, you [00:17:10] know, it’s flashing to you every so often. This is where I want to get to.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:17:15] one of those things that isn’t always obvious as well. You have to like, think about it. You have to look into yourself [00:17:20] a little bit as to why. Why is it I am doing all of this?

BOTH: Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: And Simon [00:17:25] Sinek, he’s my big inspiration. Oh, I love him. And he talks a [00:17:30] lot about why as well. Why do I want to do this? Why? And it’s so easy. [00:17:35] Oh, because I’ll need more money or because it’s you know, this is easy. This [00:17:40] is good profession. But is that really your truly why? So for me, it’s [00:17:45] easy. I want to help. I want to build something that makes difference, [00:17:50] that raises the standards in healthcare, but help people. [00:17:55] And I think what’s happening at the moment is a lot of pressure in dentistry. [00:18:00] There is a lot of pressure. So I feel like I want to help to prevent the burnout [00:18:05] and that firefighting modes that is constantly happening [00:18:10] around.

Payman Langroudi: And so then the two sides of that, when you say the patients [00:18:15] that we serve and then the team and kind of it sounds [00:18:20] obvious, isn’t it, that like a happy team will make happy patients. Yet [00:18:25] a lot of times in dentistry, we don’t prioritise keeping the team happy. [00:18:30] A lot of a lot of practices. You must have come across that, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m afraid. Yes. [00:18:35] And it’s it’s ongoing thing to be honest. I speak to a lot of people [00:18:40] and it’s not just nurses, managers. It could be clinicians [00:18:45] or principals. There is no connection between the team [00:18:50] or, you know, like something I really like the concept I heard somewhere and now I’m [00:18:55] actually trying to as well pass to other people. And the values, [00:19:00] the anti values are the unproductive behaviours in the practice. We don’t [00:19:05] talk about them. You know when you walk into the practice you’ve got beautiful posters. This [00:19:10] is our values. This is what we would like to do. This is what we expect. [00:19:15] But no one talks about the anti values such as gossip. This is not my [00:19:20] job. Blame.

Payman Langroudi: It’s huge.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s huge. Every team have it but [00:19:25] no one talks about it. Yeah, but I’m very much. Okay, let’s talk about it. Why [00:19:30] these behaviours are coming to our place.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Wherefrom why? How [00:19:35] do we prevent them? How we work together to make sure they’re not coming back. [00:19:40] It’s very, very important.

Payman Langroudi: Get into it a little bit for me. Give me an example. So [00:19:45] my example to you. I’ve worked in maybe five [00:19:50] six practices.

BOTH: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: In my career.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But I stopped a long time ago. But but [00:19:55] one, one one pattern that I saw was different [00:20:00] kind of power bases.

BOTH: Mhm. Power. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:05] classically, classically, either the manager and the head [00:20:10] nurse in one team and everyone else in another team. [00:20:15]

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The principal, the manager and the head nurse in one tower. Everyone else, [00:20:20] or even much worse than that, I think, is when, like you have the manager [00:20:25] and her friends, and then the head nurse and her friends. [00:20:30] Like two separate power bases.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s a [00:20:35] competition.

BOTH: Competition.

Payman Langroudi: Everything they say is wrong. Everything they do is wrong. And [00:20:40] then when you’re in a practice, you start to realise, okay, this is what’s going down here. Yeah. Yes. And then [00:20:45] introducing an idea into that mix, the total nightmare because we used to have [00:20:50] a practice meeting. Mhm. I was young and full of ideas, so I’d go, oh, why don’t we do [00:20:55] this, that and the other.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And even it wasn’t even the idea itself that was being argued. [00:21:00] It was like they were arguing them. The two teams were arguing each other just [00:21:05] for power, you know, just just for the concept. So how do you in that situation, how [00:21:10] do you unpack that?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s so easy to abuse your [00:21:15] power.

Payman Langroudi: You recognise it, right?

BOTH: You recognise what I’m saying? Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: It happens every so often. Even [00:21:20] when I speak to people like recruiting people as well. They always [00:21:25] mention that really? Yes. All dentists as well. Same thing. [00:21:30] I just don’t understand why. And I feel this is my mission [00:21:35] to make sure that we realise that this is actually what blocks the growth within the [00:21:40] practice, because you can have a beautiful equipment tech, beautiful practice. [00:21:45] But if your team are not aligned together.

Payman Langroudi: I guess this is the C [00:21:50] in your culture and your Cesar framework.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Yes. [00:21:55]

Payman Langroudi: So would you would you tell me before the Cesar framework is like a framework you’ve put together for how to manage a [00:22:00] practice?

BOTH: Correct? Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So go on then. Culture. I guess this goes down to culture, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Culture is the first [00:22:05] pillar. So Cesar stands for five pillars in total. So we’ve got culture empowerment, [00:22:10] system authority and results. Culture is [00:22:15] the first one because without the culture you won’t be able to tick the next pillars. [00:22:20] So it’s culture based systems.

BOTH: Let’s talk about.

Payman Langroudi: Culture. How do you how do you instil [00:22:25] a good culture in a practice where you’ve got this problem, let’s say, do you all come and agree on, I don’t know, [00:22:30] the rules of engagement. We don’t talk behind each other’s backs. Is that one of them? Like, what [00:22:35] do you do?

Patrycja Galonzka: No, because that sounds really strict.

BOTH: So tell me, you.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know, like the policies I [00:22:40] remember used to review practice rules. That even sounds too much. [00:22:45] So then we’ve made a policy in our practice which we call values. [00:22:50] So we speak to our team, what our values are, what [00:22:55] we would like to achieve, what our goals are. And we really encourage [00:23:00] our team to speak with us. So when we have a meeting, I don’t say, oh, [00:23:05] what’s your do you have any question? Because you know what happens. No, no, we don’t [00:23:10] have any questions.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the opposite of fighting match? Yeah.

BOTH: Well, yes, it. [00:23:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Can happen, but I usually like to go one by one to hear the Of perspectives because [00:23:20] it’s very important to work on things together. If you don’t work together, [00:23:25] your team can either make or break your system and the culture, as I said, the anti [00:23:30] values, they everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: You bring them up as well.

BOTH: Oh yes.

Payman Langroudi: In the team [00:23:35] you talk about.

BOTH: It, we.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talk as a generally. But when it happens, obviously [00:23:40] it’s my responsibility. You have to address it. But I think culture comes [00:23:45] from both sides as well. What you’ve just told me. It’s not just only the nurses [00:23:50] or, you know, non-clinical team. It comes from your managers, it comes from your leaders [00:23:55] and it comes from your principal.

Payman Langroudi: Principal specifically.

BOTH: Yes, yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: If they’re not present. [00:24:00]

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Obviously that reflects the rest of the team. And I believe we [00:24:05] Leaders we bring the weather to the business.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So if I will come [00:24:10] in really miserable not talking to anyone like.

BOTH: You feel [00:24:15] that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So for example, Monday. It’s so funny. Monday is not particularly [00:24:20] the, you know, favourite day to most of the people, but I feel I like Mondays. [00:24:25] I really like Mondays. So before I go to work I usually go for a walk anyway, [00:24:30] half an hour, listen to the podcast or something just to reset my mind. I [00:24:35] go to the practice and before I start to do anything, I [00:24:40] go to each team member and I greet them, ask them, how are [00:24:45] you? How was your weekend? And I just bring that positivity and they just [00:24:50] go on with it.

BOTH: So important.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. And especially on Monday.

BOTH: Yeah [00:24:55] yeah yeah yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Especially on Monday. So I think culture is something [00:25:00] you can’t just miss. And you cannot just leave it because [00:25:05] if you spot that anti value, that behaviour that you know, it [00:25:10] blocks your growth. If you just pass and you not address it, it becomes [00:25:15] a standard. And that’s the problem. And it gets harder and harder. You know, [00:25:20] like when you have these difficult conversations, no one likes them. [00:25:25]

BOTH: No.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like no one likes them. But this is our responsibility. We have [00:25:30] to speak. And I think it’s very easy. I’ve been there as well. Like you have [00:25:35] this conversation and all you hear is like, you did this wrong, this wrong, this wrong. You’ve [00:25:40] got that much time you need to improve. And you feel like, all right. Be [00:25:45] kind. Kindness, I think, is so important from both [00:25:50] sides. Management team.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Patience. When they walk into your practice, [00:25:55] they can feel it. They can see it. When you go there to a reception [00:26:00] room, sit down and the conversation that goes in between at [00:26:05] the reception, of course, people can hear it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more than even that. It’s just a vibe, [00:26:10] isn’t it?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Like you said.

Payman Langroudi: They can feel it. But it’s an interesting thing because kindness is [00:26:15] such an important part of what you’re saying, but it’s not thought of in the business [00:26:20] sort of vernacular, in the business narrative. Yeah. Kindness [00:26:25] isn’t something that soft skills.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s almost like if [00:26:30] it’s work, you don’t have to be kind for some reason, you know, like it’s madness in a way when you think about [00:26:35] that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But on the other hand, I used to think it enlightened [00:26:40] me were like, you know, let’s, let’s be a big family.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or your team is amazing. I [00:26:45] really, really like your team. Yeah, they are just incredible.

Payman Langroudi: But we thought, let’s [00:26:50] be a big family. Yeah. Like that. I used to think that was the the ultimate goal that [00:26:55] it feels like a family, you know?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But I’ve changed my position on that now. Now, [00:27:00] now, I think you have to think of it more like a sports team or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: I completely [00:27:05] agree.

Payman Langroudi: Because, number one, you can’t fire your family. Number one.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s hard to work with your family.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:27:10] you like. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: You know what I mean? I completely agree because I had this so many times. [00:27:15] Oh, join to our practice. Our practice. We’re like a family. And I’m [00:27:20] thinking, yes, I love my sister, but to work with her probably every day, we’re very [00:27:25] different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: That could just bring a little bit more challenge, you know [00:27:30] what I mean? I completely agree. It’s a team like sport team. Achieve something together. [00:27:35] Let’s play together. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s your tactic for looking forward to [00:27:40] Monday morning? Is it that you simply love your job?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m very grateful. And [00:27:45] I would say yes. So I love my job. I’ve got such a passion for it. So.

Payman Langroudi: Or [00:27:50] do you hate your home? No. I’m joking, I’m joking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. That would be like a holiday time.

BOTH: You know [00:27:55] I’m joking.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I think yes, I’ve got a big, big passion. [00:28:00] And I think I always had I feel grateful because I [00:28:05] work with an amazing people around me as well. So values again, we have [00:28:10] very similar values, similar goals. And we just want to win. [00:28:15] Like how in principle Doctor Dan, he always tell us that I want you guys [00:28:20] to win. I want to see you win. And I think that value is so [00:28:25] important because we all feel like we are on a mission. We have to win it. He’s [00:28:30] good. And it’s not like win it. In terms of, as you said before, there is a competition in [00:28:35] between, let’s say two departments. It’s to be a better version of ourselves [00:28:40] every single day when we talk about why patients should come and see us. [00:28:45] Yeah. Why? Because we offer amazing service. Yeah. But [00:28:50] why? And again, refer it to your why is very, very private practice. Yes. [00:28:55] It’s a fully private practice squad practice open post pandemic. [00:29:00]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Patrycja Galonzka: From zero. No momentum, no database.

Payman Langroudi: The headline numbers [00:29:05] now like how many staff have you got?

Patrycja Galonzka: So we started from four [00:29:10] very small to about 15 now.

Payman Langroudi: And how many opera [00:29:15] trees, how many rooms?

Patrycja Galonzka: We’ve got three surgeries.

Payman Langroudi: Three surgeries, working and busy.

Patrycja Galonzka: Every day. [00:29:20] Yes, yes. Very good. Yes, I’m very, very, very proud of what we’ve [00:29:25] achieved. So it’s not like we only build this the team. We now have [00:29:30] high performing practice, amazing community around us. [00:29:35] And we have the very clear membership approach, which obviously helps the [00:29:40] practice to bring that stable income. It’s like a bread and butter I guess for you. [00:29:45] But I think, yes, the value why we are so amazing, why people [00:29:50] should come to see us. And it comes from your team. First thing, if you go on the reviews, there [00:29:55] is a lot of mention about, oh, your team is great, so kind. It’s nice to see [00:30:00] that. And I think this is very important. Like you can have [00:30:05] so many, like I said, tech Equipment. But if you don’t have your team [00:30:10] together.

Payman Langroudi: So when I go, I decided I was going to meet the top 100 [00:30:15] enlightened practices. Yes. Just because I wanted to. I wanted to have some connection [00:30:20] to the market, you know, because you forget once you stop practising, you don’t have connection [00:30:25] to what’s going on out there.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And, um, so I visit these guys [00:30:30] and like you say, straight away, as soon as you walk in, you can feel something. Yes. And [00:30:35] you can imagine I must have been to a thousand more. More than a thousand practices now. Mhm. [00:30:40] And I’ve seen I’ve seen it all right. I’ve seen from the ones [00:30:45] who, when you walk in, no one even looks up.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm. [00:30:50]

Payman Langroudi: It’s not even their fault sometimes. Yeah. It’s like there’s not enough humans. There’s not enough staff in [00:30:55] the place, you know, like, maybe it’s a mixed practice for the sake of the argument. People are busy typing [00:31:00] and, and whatever. Yeah. And sometimes I stand there for like six minutes, [00:31:05] you know, No one even acknowledges. Sometimes that does happen.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah it does. [00:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, all the way to the other side. We get some, some amazing practices [00:31:15] out there, man. Some brilliant business people like this boss of yours. Yeah. [00:31:20] Thank you. Brilliant businessman, I’m sure. Yeah. If you put him on a, like [00:31:25] a scale of all businesses, someone would say he’s not even a businessman. He’s a dentist. He’s a professional. [00:31:30] Yeah, yeah. But sometimes those guys are talents. And the talent [00:31:35] really came out during Covid. I thought, you know, when everything was changing every minute and [00:31:40] we didn’t know what was going to happen the day after tomorrow, PPE, this, that and the other furlough. And [00:31:45] you saw some operators were amazing, amazing. And they [00:31:50] could be running gigantic organisations, but they’re running a practice in Blackpool.

BOTH: Yes. [00:31:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the opposite. Right. And the opposite. And so what I’m saying to [00:32:00] you is that these things have to be worked at. Right. So give [00:32:05] me your. What are your situation? Like, would it happen if I walked into your practice? What’s [00:32:10] the standard thing that will happen because you’ve trained it that way.

BOTH: So you’re [00:32:15] going to get greeted.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, we have a lot of people knocking to the doors and it’s usually, [00:32:20] oh, sorry, the wrong shop because they think it is a coffee shop. Or they [00:32:25] explain it’s like a spa environment. So it’s not just about the look. [00:32:30] Obviously it looks really non-clinical at the start. You’ve got we’ve got diffusers as well, [00:32:35] essential oils, but it’s the team. So you will be greeted but really [00:32:40] nice team smiling, good energy. How are you today. Oh it’s great to [00:32:45] have you. Um and then would you like anything to drink. Simple as that. It doesn’t [00:32:50] cost. But if you have that connection with people because patients are coming [00:32:55] into the practices, they’re very nervous. You know, like they feel anxious. They’re [00:33:00] probably overthinking what’s going to happen? What are they going to do? Who am I going to see? [00:33:05]

Payman Langroudi: How much is it going to cost?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh gosh. Money of course.

BOTH: Your mind.

Patrycja Galonzka: Right? Yes. So [00:33:10] we have to make sure they feel safe. Calm.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:33:15] interesting. So sorry. I forgot the point I was trying to make with you on my way to that [00:33:20] practice here in the train, I start reading the Google reviews because you said reviews.

BOTH: Yes, [00:33:25] yes.

Payman Langroudi: There’s different ways of reading reviews. I mean, number one, you’ve got Prav and his tactical process [00:33:30] for how to get more reviews, right? So there’s some sometimes you see loads of great reviews and you think, oh, these [00:33:35] guys are good operators. Yes. Yeah. They know how to get good reviews. Yeah. But what I, the way I read [00:33:40] reviews, I always kind of have a look, look at the one star ones just to see why what that was saying. It tends [00:33:45] to be like, oh, NHS treatment, they didn’t have it or something like that. Yeah. Um, [00:33:50] but I, you know, at the top it says the words that get mentioned the most would [00:33:55] be like hygienist, 16 mentions this whitening, 12 mentions the words that get mentioned [00:34:00] the most, reviews, the key words, those come up at the top. And there’s one particular word I’m looking for when [00:34:05] I go to a practice. You don’t see it often, but every time you see that word when you get there, it’s [00:34:10] a brilliant practice.

BOTH: What is it?

Payman Langroudi: Have a guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, I think this [00:34:15] is what we’re just talking now. Team. Amazing. Team.

Payman Langroudi: Team. Yes. Yes. Yes! But. [00:34:20] No.

BOTH: What is it?

Payman Langroudi: I have one more guess.

Patrycja Galonzka: It [00:34:25] can’t be culture. I [00:34:30] really don’t [00:34:35] know.

Payman Langroudi: You know, in the podcast. In a podcast, silence is [00:34:40] the best thing. It’s like it’s almost built up tension.

BOTH: Yeah. So it’s [00:34:45] just.

Payman Langroudi: Keeping some silence. No. Um. Feel. Feel.

BOTH: Okay. [00:34:50]

Payman Langroudi: They make you feel so comfortable. The way they make you feel, feel, feel, feel, feel. Such a great word.

Patrycja Galonzka: Interesting. [00:34:55]

Payman Langroudi: Um, we should look up yours and see if it’s there.

BOTH: Yeah, I hope so, yeah. But [00:35:00] wow.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s.

BOTH: Just.

Patrycja Galonzka: Got me here.

BOTH: What I realise.

Payman Langroudi: What I realise every time I see, feel [00:35:05] and I get there. People greet me at the door, people smiling at each other.

BOTH: Mhm. [00:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: Um, everyone’s kind of on time and stuff, you know.

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Disorganisation [00:35:15] thing going on because it takes organisation to make people feel good. You know, it’s [00:35:20] like.

BOTH: It’s.

Patrycja Galonzka: A foundation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a you have to have organisation.

BOTH: First before.

Payman Langroudi: People can [00:35:25] be smiling at each other.

BOTH: Right.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: What was the second one?

Patrycja Galonzka: Culture [00:35:30] or team? Outside team. Yeah.

BOTH: No.

Payman Langroudi: No. But. Caesar.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh. Caesar. Empowerment. [00:35:35]

Payman Langroudi: Empowerment.

BOTH: Go on. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Same again. I’ve learned this from my [00:35:40] lessons. You have to empower your people in order to [00:35:45] not just progress, but to create that sustainable growth within [00:35:50] the practice. The problem is that, and I had this in the practice I used to [00:35:55] work before. I hear this every time. The practice relies on just a few people [00:36:00] and the people that are strong, they rely on the goodwill that [00:36:05] works for a short run. But for a longer run, it’s [00:36:10] going to break. Yeah. Let’s say when it gets busy, very busy. [00:36:15] Standards drop. Someone leaves, someone is off [00:36:20] sick, and then it creates that chaos, the firefighting. So [00:36:25] I’ve learned this. And now within our practice, we are very heavy on [00:36:30] empowerment. Empowerment with the systems. So we create the systems [00:36:35] for our team that they can easily follow and they have that ownership. When [00:36:40] you have the ownership, you feel more responsible for the job that [00:36:45] you do. So it’s not like, oh, this is just my job. They feel really excited and [00:36:50] I love to see when you have your team members that they have a task, that they’ve [00:36:55] never done it before. And they’re like, oh, am I able to do this? And when you see [00:37:00] them step in into that strength.

Payman Langroudi: This is the comfort zone.

BOTH: Thing. Yeah. [00:37:05] Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: Very important. I feel so satisfied. And then if you [00:37:10] don’t.

BOTH: People don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Like change. So.

BOTH: Oh, no.

Payman Langroudi: What do you do? What do you do to encourage them to step [00:37:15] into the comfort zone? Is it do you do you? For instance, one thing I’ve noticed is very important for [00:37:20] your team to feel like if there’s a mistake, it’s better than if they [00:37:25] never tried.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, totally.

Payman Langroudi: So mistakes are okay. In fact, if there aren’t mistakes, [00:37:30] we’re not trying things.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: So that giving them that confidence. Yeah.

BOTH: Yes. [00:37:35]

Payman Langroudi: I think kind of an empowerment thing.

BOTH: Right.

Patrycja Galonzka: Lead by example. So I think great [00:37:40] leaders we don’t have all the answers. I think you sometimes you need to [00:37:45] admit it. Well, I’m not too sure about it. Leave that with me. But I think [00:37:50] we should ask better questions and Micromanagement. We know [00:37:55] it’s obviously something quite common and easily to be done. Again, let [00:38:00] them be. Give them the resources. Make sure they understand and [00:38:05] they’re happy to go to try. And as you just said, mistakes and [00:38:10] errors. I like them.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t punish.

BOTH: Them.

Patrycja Galonzka: Know it’s opportunity to grow and [00:38:15] whatever happens and they oh I’m sorry. No, let’s sit down. So what happened exactly [00:38:20] why this happened. And for me, I always feel whatever goes wrong, [00:38:25] I think this is my fault because they are they they were [00:38:30] not clear what to do. Or maybe the system wasn’t good enough. So [00:38:35] then we sit down together. What’s the problem? Where is the mistake? How can [00:38:40] we prevent this? What is their solution? And I love this. Something happens [00:38:45] and then I’ve got my practice operation lead. She comes in. This is what happened, [00:38:50] Patricia. But I’ve got this solution. Are you happy with me to go ahead and do this? [00:38:55]

BOTH: Now we get.

Payman Langroudi: Back to.

BOTH: Culture. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: And then what happens? She [00:39:00] does this with the next person and the next person. And then you create that [00:39:05] leadership. So it’s the great book I read. It’s called One Minute Manager. [00:39:10] Yeah. So that’s basically what it is. And then myself, I’ve got [00:39:15] the time to plan, to think, to reflect, to review what’s [00:39:20] happening.

BOTH: Because.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not taking care of all the bullshit in the middle.

BOTH: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like a firefighting constantly. I’ve [00:39:25] been there. Something breaks. You quickly run to fix.

BOTH: It, fix it yourself.

Patrycja Galonzka: Sometimes it’s [00:39:30] someone is struggling. Oh, let me do this for you. That’s wrong. You [00:39:35] should let them to try and time. Give them time. Check [00:39:40] on them as well. It’s not like, oh, this is what I expect from you to do. That’s it. Make sure [00:39:45] they understand, but make sure you check on them. Make sure it’s actually measurable and Interact [00:39:50] and you’ve got some time. Okay. This is the task. This is how we do it. This is [00:39:55] what good looks like. This is where I expect. And if they struggle, absolutely [00:40:00] fine. Why do you need more support? Do you need more training? [00:40:05] Or maybe same again, go back to the system.

Payman Langroudi: So did you learn this [00:40:10] just from books?

Patrycja Galonzka: Books, working hard in books, in the clinic, connecting [00:40:15] with people. But I think you have to get out from your [00:40:20] work environment. And I’m very much about this, not just [00:40:25] dentistry, because this it will work in GP practice, any [00:40:30] organisation or any organisation. Exactly. So you have to expose [00:40:35] yourself outside of your environment where you actually [00:40:40] day to day basis you go to and you learn and something amazing [00:40:45] from someone. I’m learning now, like you just mentioned before. Patterns. Spot [00:40:50] the patterns and you see the pattern. It happens. And then [00:40:55] now for me, when I see the pattern, I want to find a solution.

Payman Langroudi: Really resonates. [00:41:00] What you said to me about when something goes wrong. It’s an opportunity to learn. I [00:41:05] remember when I was a dentist, I used to love dealing with complaints. [00:41:10]

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And it was like a challenge. It was like, how do I make this the [00:41:15] best reaction to a complaint and turn the patient from [00:41:20] someone unhappy to someone who’s going around telling everyone, you’re brilliant?

BOTH: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, the, [00:41:25] the sometimes you can even take it too far, right? I mean, I’m not going to charge you for [00:41:30] this, this or this.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’m going to make sure this never happens again or whatever it was. Yeah. [00:41:35] But I used to love the process and it was so interesting. It was just a reframing in your [00:41:40] own head because a complaint used to ruin your month before [00:41:45] you take it personally.

BOTH: That’s it.

Payman Langroudi: You think the person’s an idiot? [00:41:50] What you said about taking the blame for stuff I’ve now come to realise. It’s [00:41:55] the happiest way of working is to take full responsibility for everything [00:42:00] that goes wrong yourself. Yeah, especially if you’re in a leadership role.

BOTH: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: In the [00:42:05] end, you could have fired that person. You could have not hired that person. Yeah. In the end. [00:42:10] Whereas if you don’t do that, then your happiness is [00:42:15] predicated on that person’s day. Yeah. So sometimes [00:42:20] that person comes in and has a bad day. Now you’re having a bad day. Whereas if you [00:42:25] take the blame for that person having a bad day. I didn’t train him. I didn’t give him the incentives, [00:42:30] I didn’t. Whatever it was, I hired them in the first place.

BOTH: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Now it’s your your actions [00:42:35] that dictate whether you’re going to be happy or not and not someone else’s. And especially when you’re a manager [00:42:40] of 16 people, that’s 16 variables that you’re going to have [00:42:45] to take the blame for.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Which is better than saying, you know, each one of them [00:42:50] is a problem. I’m a problem. That’s that’s the best way to take it. Even if it wasn’t you [00:42:55] directly, you know.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. I think this is very important for the readers [00:43:00] to understand. And as you just mentioned about the complaints, we should change [00:43:05] the mindset of how we feel and see that because we tend to, [00:43:10] as you said, take this too much personally. Yeah. Um, and I think this is where [00:43:15] you have to be very logical and then again, involve your team, because [00:43:20] if you just deal with the complaint by yourself, yes, [00:43:25] you can learn from it, but it may happen again because your team wasn’t [00:43:30] aware about it. So you have to actually sit down together and learn together. [00:43:35] And as you said, it’s a team approach. We on this together, [00:43:40] we learn together, we make mistakes. Together We win together and [00:43:45] celebrate together.

Payman Langroudi: Do you? Do you go out and stuff?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So we celebrate [00:43:50] in different ways. Going out number one. But our celebration as well, [00:43:55] it’s creating the social media content, which is like a twice a month, but [00:44:00] we have a very chilled day. Um, and then now we came up with a different sort of idea [00:44:05] to do some reality show. So it’s such a fun day. [00:44:10] We usually like get some pizza or chips as well. But yeah, we, [00:44:15] we do celebrate together for sure because it’s very, very important to [00:44:20] keep us going to make us a line.

BOTH: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I do some in practice training [00:44:25] for enlighten and it’s part of a like a process, right? [00:44:30] It’s a process of we’re going to try for one week doing this new idea [00:44:35] of how.

BOTH: We’re going to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s kind of like a, we’re going to talk to every patient about the colour of their teeth [00:44:40] and this sort of thing.

BOTH: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s different ways of doing it. Yeah. Sometimes it could be reception led where [00:44:45] they ask for permission.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: For shade taking. Sometimes it’s the dentists all doing [00:44:50] it. Sometimes it’s hygienist led. Anyway, it’s kind of, you know, no one likes change. Yeah. [00:44:55] So if I say in next week we’re going to do this, it’s like extra hassle for everyone, [00:45:00] right? So one thing that I say to the principals is you need to [00:45:05] do something in that week to make up for the fact that I’ve just [00:45:10] written their week by saying, you have to do all this stuff. Yeah. And then I asked the question, what would it take? [00:45:15] What? What is it? What, what could you change about work to make [00:45:20] it look forward to coming to work more than you already look forward to coming [00:45:25] to work.

BOTH: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ll be amazed. The number of people and the vast majority of cases, [00:45:30] everyone just sitting there and can’t think of what to say. And then some people, some, some people [00:45:35] say, oh, give me more money or something. Yeah. But that’s a different part of my talk. Yeah, yeah. That’s more. [00:45:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Transactional.

Payman Langroudi: There is that there is that, hey, if we hit this target, everyone gets a night out or whatever. [00:45:45] That’s another part. But this part that says, what do we have to do to make it [00:45:50] more fun to come to work? Yeah. Amazing how that should be front [00:45:55] and centre. Yeah. The most, one of the most important conversations that should be had. How [00:46:00] can we make work more fun? Yeah. And yet so [00:46:05] rare. So rare that anyone has anything to say on the matter. Yeah. Sometimes [00:46:10] there’s this little look on people’s faces that they’re never going to do anything like that. Yeah. [00:46:15] Sometimes everyone’s drawing a blank, and then I have to give them an example. Yeah. And I say, oh, what about [00:46:20] every day we finish at 3:00 instead of 5:00? And suddenly people like sit up [00:46:25] and say, wait a minute. Yeah, that would work. Right? Um, and then, you know, you talk about [00:46:30] the effect of that on the practice, but the effect of selling five teeth whitening a day to [00:46:35] the practice as well. Yeah. As, as a, you know, it makes sense. You know, like, [00:46:40] how much do you guys charge for a license? You know.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s five, nine five.

Payman Langroudi: So any [00:46:45] number times five, nine five is a big number. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it can be transformational [00:46:50] if you talk to every single patient. Mhm. You could do, I don’t know, one per dentist [00:46:55] per day in that period where you really focus. Yeah. It could make up for all sorts [00:47:00] of things that you could provide to the team. Beats a coffee, whatever you want every day, if you want. [00:47:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s not a question anyone can answer. It’s it’s such a funny thing. It’s [00:47:10] like, it’s almost like it’s a bad question or something. People are like, like looking [00:47:15] down.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I agree, and I think that’s the same again, people [00:47:20] sometimes are afraid to speak up.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um, so [00:47:25] I would say this is undervalue and same again. Yeah, yeah. Because what happened is [00:47:30] when the meeting is finished, they go, they leave and they talk. Oh, I wish [00:47:35] I could say this. Oh, you know what? Maybe we should do this. So this is the [00:47:40] part of actually leadership and your anti values. If they feel safe. [00:47:45] And then if you are connected together they’re going to talk. They’re going to bring [00:47:50] the ideas on the table together. But if that connection [00:47:55] is not there, the culture I’m referring to, they stay quiet. Culture [00:48:00] eats strategy.

Payman Langroudi: Every day man. It does. Yes. So give me some concrete examples [00:48:05] of some of the management kind of tools that you have. I mean, let’s talk let’s [00:48:10] talk KPIs, for instance, which KPIs would you say are the key ones to look out [00:48:15] for.

Patrycja Galonzka: For the practice?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So because there is a problem of too many [00:48:20] KPIs. Yeah. You can’t track.

Patrycja Galonzka: Everything. No.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s you’re not doing anything about [00:48:25] these numbers. So for me, the fewer the better. But key ones like what’s, what are [00:48:30] key KPIs that you look at?

Patrycja Galonzka: I think for each practice will be obviously Dear friends. [00:48:35] Um, and as you just said, you don’t want to track everything because that [00:48:40] will be overwhelming. I think you need to choose up to ten probably [00:48:45] to start with. That’s from Chris Barrow. By the way, the article I’ve read, [00:48:50] it was just amazing. The ten KPIs you should really track, but let’s say five [00:48:55] you need to make sure that the KPIs that you track, you [00:49:00] know, that they deliver that sustainable growth. [00:49:05] And, you know, by seeing them and reviewing them, your business stay [00:49:10] healthy. Yeah. So we are private practice that would be different for NHS because [00:49:15] that’s very heavy on Udas. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or if you were like an ortho practice or whatever. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Invisalign [00:49:20] referral practice. Yes. But I think private practice.

Payman Langroudi: Come on. What are the key ones. [00:49:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: So how many new patients are coming through each month? How many new exams, [00:49:30] how many new consoles, conversion of how many new patient exams [00:49:35] we convert to, the memberships, of how many new consoles we convert to [00:49:40] stage two of our consultation, or to actually the treatment recalls. [00:49:45] Absolutely, yes. Because that’s your loyal, you know, community that’s still [00:49:50] happy to come in and they want to see you. So that’s, you know, that’s coming in finance, [00:49:55] of course you need to track. And we just recently [00:50:00] added something which is Google reviews. So we did [00:50:05] it for some time, which was working really well. We tried a different systems as well, like [00:50:10] having someone in the background just to send the sms’s or emails. [00:50:15] But then I went through recently to local practices around us and I’m like, [00:50:20] if they can do it, we can do it. So I sat down with my [00:50:25] team and I’m like, look guys, I think we can be better. We just [00:50:30] have a board in our office and I said two a day. I know we can do [00:50:35] two a day, and we have 4 or 5 a day now for the last two weeks. And [00:50:40] I’m like, amazing. So like I said, you can track a lot, [00:50:45] but I think you need to make sure that the numbers you see, you know, your business [00:50:50] is healthy and then KPIs, that doesn’t really refer only to the data [00:50:55] and the numbers, but your team. So how often do you want to. [00:51:00] Once you know your staff turnover your sickness [00:51:05] as well.

Payman Langroudi: I had Andy Acton on recently from Frank Taylor Associates and [00:51:10] he was saying sickness is when he’s looking at a practice, you know, valuing a practice. [00:51:15] Yes. The number of sick days for him is a massive [00:51:20] sort of indicator of culture.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh gosh. Yes. It’s like a red flag. Yeah, [00:51:25] absolutely. Yeah. When it’s too much sickness is happening.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s absolutely nothing you can [00:51:30] do about it. I mean, if someone calls up and says, I’m sick, that’s it. There’s no there’s no.

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, you have to follow [00:51:35] the procedures. Yeah. You have to follow the procedures. But the same again. You need to track [00:51:40] it. Yeah. You need to be aware. The reason of the sickness, how often [00:51:45] how you track it. What’s your action, how you’re following up. You know, we all [00:51:50] have a different story. We all have a different luggages that we carrying [00:51:55] and then us as managers, we need to respect that. You can’t [00:52:00] just, you know, assume things happens or that person does this [00:52:05] because of that. You have to just connect with them as well.

Payman Langroudi: And how [00:52:10] clear are you on, for instance, if I said how many white [00:52:15] things are you doing? Can you pull that up very quickly? And are you are you looking at that [00:52:20] sort of stuff? The number of different treatments. Pound per second per chair type approach [00:52:25] we do.

Patrycja Galonzka: But we still actually working on it. So [00:52:30] that’s also my mission because I’ve noticed there is a lot of systems that they [00:52:35] track your numbers. Now you can easily connect to your software, but I found [00:52:40] that it’s still not enough so they can track your conversion per clinician, [00:52:45] how many treatments they managed to convert, your recall systems [00:52:50] and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard of Medfin and Dental CFO? No, [00:52:55] I had both of them on here. Um, they’re like AI systems that, [00:53:00] um, you almost talk to it like ChatGPT and ask a question [00:53:05] about your, your patients, um, like, like literally you say, so which one of my [00:53:10] associates is doing best right now? And, and figures [00:53:15] it out. Um, and it’s connected to everything like back end, basically the whole business [00:53:20] is that the plumbing to all the different.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’ll have to check.

Payman Langroudi: Systems. Yeah. [00:53:25] But where I’m going with it is with AI, you’re going to have a lot more. I mean, give it another [00:53:30] three years I reckon. Yeah. There’s going to be the patient’s AI will [00:53:35] contact the practice’s AI to make the appointment. There’ll be no human involved in that. [00:53:40] Yeah. Because AI to AI.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Ai to humans a bit. [00:53:45] You know, am I talking to a machine and whatever it is. Yes. Yeah. Which, by the way, I don’t know about you. I’m [00:53:50] not interested in phoning Amazon to buy something from Amazon. [00:53:55] Mhm. Yeah. I don’t want to talk to a human. I want to just go on their pick my thing and get out. Yeah. It’s [00:54:00] much easier not talking to a human to buy my deodorant at Amazon than [00:54:05] to talk to a human and say, yeah, so. So we think, oh, you know, we’re a healthcare business. [00:54:10] We’re a people business. And all people are nervous. We’re always going to need people. But [00:54:15] very quickly, these things can change. You know, there was a there was a shop owner in Gdansk [00:54:20] saying, I’m in the shop. People come have a chat with me. You know, the whole [00:54:25] Prav thing. The old lady. It’s real. But there’s also this. You [00:54:30] know, like, push a few buttons and the thing arrives. So, so so going forward, [00:54:35] we’re going to have much more ability to look at numbers.

Patrycja Galonzka: I can’t wait.

Payman Langroudi: Much more time [00:54:40] for our people to care for our patients, because they’re not busy filling [00:54:45] forms and things manually. Spreadsheets, all of that will be done by machines. [00:54:50] And I was going to ask you, so do you use AI?

Patrycja Galonzka: We do. Yes, we do AI we [00:54:55] use for team training. So we use a software called Synthesia. [00:55:00] Yeah. It’s amazing. I really, really enjoy using it.

Payman Langroudi: And explain it just from beginning, like [00:55:05] what.

Patrycja Galonzka: Happens, you know, like old fashioned way you do that team presentation [00:55:10] through PowerPoint and now people use Canva or Canva as well. You can use AI [00:55:15] prompts with Canva.

Payman Langroudi: To make the thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh my God. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like the design.

Patrycja Galonzka: Literally. [00:55:20]

Payman Langroudi: Kidding me.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So before I remember just, you know, doing Canva manually [00:55:25] uploading all the documents, but now I just write the specific command [00:55:30] what exactly what I want on my presentation. There we go.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:55:35] team had many.

Patrycja Galonzka: Slides and you produce a few like examples. Then you can [00:55:40] basically take it from it, do a lot of like few tweaks, tailor it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. Yeah. But this [00:55:45] is more for the team training. So we have a lot of videos that [00:55:50] we did. So whoever starts the practice with the practice, they’ve got like an onboarding. [00:55:55] So they part of actually this videos to start and [00:56:00] you can create your avatar there. And I did mine. I played with it. It was [00:56:05] so cool. So I’ve uploaded my real photo, but I can put myself in [00:56:10] any scenario. I was even on the moon.

Payman Langroudi: Talking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Talking and looking literally like [00:56:15] you. So you do a team training. So it’s not only just the Presentation, [00:56:20] but the AI is on the presentation at the same time and [00:56:25] talks to you.

Payman Langroudi: Is it good?

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s very good.

Payman Langroudi: Like it looks like it’s you talking.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, [00:56:30] yes. So it saves time. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: And when you’re writing like a LinkedIn post for your consulting [00:56:35] business, are you learning that as well?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes. So I use AI. [00:56:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know what I found right? The best thing about it is that when before, if I was going to write a LinkedIn [00:56:45] article from 0 to 1, from a blank piece of paper to, [00:56:50] I don’t know, just six headings. Yeah, that piece would take so long [00:56:55] to go, oh, no, no, that’s wrong. And it would take so long to get started. Yeah. Whereas now [00:57:00] you just say it to the thing, to Gemini or whatever, and then it immediately produces [00:57:05] something and it’s giving you your start. Now you can just put that into LinkedIn if [00:57:10] you want, but that doesn’t make sense. But the fact that you’ve got your start means that just you’re just a [00:57:15] much better place, aren’t you? That’s, that’s the key thing about it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, but I think what [00:57:20] you’ve just said, it’s very important. You have to review it before it goes there. And [00:57:25] it’s very easy done. You don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it makes mistakes. [00:57:30]

Patrycja Galonzka: And it’s not you. Yeah. Like wherever you look, you know, it’s AI. But [00:57:35] take your time. Do the points, spend time actually thinking of what you want [00:57:40] to write. And as you said, say it too. It’s so cool. I used to write, now I just [00:57:45] say it. Yeah. And you produce you the start as you’ve mentioned. Yeah. And saves you [00:57:50] time.

Payman Langroudi: I find kids are very like ahead of this game. Yeah. Because they’re not allowed to [00:57:55] use AI for their homework, which is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: No, but they figured it out, right? They figured out [00:58:00] how to use AI and then bring it back into humanised.ai. It’s called yeah, yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Kids [00:58:05] are clever.

Payman Langroudi: It’s good. I’d be disappointed if my kids weren’t understanding how to get around these rules. You know, like [00:58:10] it’s important they know, like, you know, they know how to hack stuff.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. [00:58:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And another thing I think is it should be 100. You can use [00:58:20] whatever the hell you like. Yeah, because those are the tools that are out there. Yeah. Okay, here’s the question. [00:58:25] The teacher sets a question. Go berserk man. Use Gemini. Use whatever you want. Yeah. [00:58:30] Use ChatGPT. Yeah. Why not? Like it should be available in exams. Yeah. [00:58:35] Because, you know, we’ve all got everyone has the tool now. It’s the same. It’s [00:58:40] the the race is flat, you know, like, and then it’s as you know, it’s what you [00:58:45] ask it. That’s the question. Right. The important thing, not, you know, the questions, [00:58:50] the important thing, not the answer now.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, so [00:58:55] we use our practice. Um, but we need to make sure that we [00:59:00] use it safely.

Payman Langroudi: In what sense.

Patrycja Galonzka: Data data patient safety as well. [00:59:05] Yeah. So, um, I reach out to actually a few compliances, uh, companies [00:59:10] asking, do you have any AI policy in place that I can actually [00:59:15] review it and have a look and implement to our practice. I had [00:59:20] zero and I’m like, what?

Payman Langroudi: Well, data policy [00:59:25] itself is.

Patrycja Galonzka: Not just data because, you know, as you just said, receptionist, [00:59:30] let’s say comes to the complaint. Yeah, they will just copy paste all the patient details. [00:59:35] You don’t know where this goes to be honest. Right? Yeah. [00:59:40] So I think yes. Use it if it reduced the repetitive [00:59:45] tasks. Absolutely. It improves the patient’s journey. Team [00:59:50] communication business data. I’m for it are using it [00:59:55] as well. And make sure you train your team. So we have like not a digital [01:00:00] sessions. But I’ve always been fascinated by about AI and computers. [01:00:05] So I sit down with them. We agree on what tools we use, how [01:00:10] we use them, and what do we not say or what do we not [01:00:15] do? And everyone seems to be fine and very confident with it. [01:00:20] But at the start, of course, oh my God, AI, I had a few people. I don’t want to [01:00:25] use it. It’s too much. I’d rather to write the email.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t like change. People [01:00:30] don’t like change.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. Yes. That’s the mindset we’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got a few people here who’ve really [01:00:35] taken it on and they’ve accelerated compared.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s it. Embraced.

Payman Langroudi: Accelerated.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: Um, I was having a meeting yesterday with one of our team [01:00:45] and a scientist that she had found a like a toothpaste expert. [01:00:50] Yeah. And I was just sitting watching her talking to this person. Yeah. Four [01:00:55] months ago, she didn’t know the first thing about toothpaste. Nothing. She knew nothing. Yeah. In the last four months, [01:01:00] she figured out some, like the shape of the rod of hydroxyapatite. And how do you test [01:01:05] that? And so on. And the scientist is giving her the answers. And it’s because she’s the type [01:01:10] who’s just like, anything happens. She’s on there going. Yeah, yeah. Although at [01:01:15] the same time there’s two things. One, when you ask her a question about [01:01:20] something you know a lot about, sometimes the answer’s not as good [01:01:25] as you think. Yeah. When you know a lot about something. But even that’s improved even [01:01:30] that’s improved a lot depends which model you use and which, you know, the paid model or whatever. Yeah. But [01:01:35] the second thing is this girl. Yeah, she’s got ChatGPT down as the ultimate master. [01:01:40] Like insomuch as you know, we’ll say, okay, what should we do regarding this toothpaste? [01:01:45] I’ll say do this. She’ll say, but ChatGPT says, do that. Yeah. And, and, and I’m like, [01:01:50] okay, ChatGPT can say whatever it likes. Yeah, yeah, I think we should do this still. Yeah. And, but, you [01:01:55] know, she’s over reliant.

Patrycja Galonzka: We need to protect that human side.

Speaker 7: But [01:02:00] do you think it’s possible? It’s possible.

Payman Langroudi: Here. Your daughter could marry a robot.

Patrycja Galonzka: I [01:02:05] hope. No.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but but you know what I mean. Like, I [01:02:10] mean, okay, let me, let me give let me give you this example. Yeah. My daughter is 16. She’s [01:02:15] saying she wants to be a dentist. Okay, great. I’m a dentist. My wife’s a dentist. [01:02:20] Great. It’d be nice. We own enlightened. It’d be nice if someone becomes a dentist. Yes, but [01:02:25] by the time she’s a dentist, will be eight years time. Yeah, in [01:02:30] eight years? Yeah. Surely a robot’s going to be doing that job. I mean, why not? [01:02:35] What’s stopping it? Eight years time. Like the brain. Yeah. What is the dentist? He’s [01:02:40] a brain. His eyes and his hands. Yeah. The brain’s already [01:02:45] better than ours. The brains, their eyes. Come on. Think like the best camera. [01:02:50] Whatever. X-ray vision, whatever. The eyes are going to be great. And then you’re telling me they can’t do [01:02:55] hands like they’ll do hands that come out of hands? They’ll be like.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, no. [01:03:00]

Payman Langroudi: I can see that eight years time.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then people say, oh, dentistry. People are [01:03:05] scared. They want a human. Okay, put a human, put a person. Yeah. And I a [01:03:10] very, very kind person. Yeah. But the actual work, eight years [01:03:15] time, I just feel like it’s not going to be a dentist doing the job.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I can see that too. [01:03:20] I mean, there is pros and cons, like with everything, what we do. [01:03:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you know Waymo with Waymo, the way it works is one driver drives [01:03:30] 50 cars. Yeah. So the cars are driving themselves until [01:03:35] they hit a situation they don’t understand. Then they go back to the driver and the driver handles [01:03:40] that one. And then when that one’s done, one of the other 49, when they hit a situation, [01:03:45] it might end up being like that. You know, one dentist is doing 100 fillings. There’s robots [01:03:50] doing the filling. When they hit a situation, the dentist comes and takes over. Wow. Something like that. Maybe. [01:03:55]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Look, I can see that for sure. [01:04:00] I’ve seen a lot of things on the internet and like the robots [01:04:05] jumping over, running cleaning, you know. I mean, it [01:04:10] does make sense. Like, we use a lot of robots even in the kitchen. Yeah. Oh, [01:04:15] like now at work as well in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So then with AI and robotics and all that, [01:04:20] the things where there’s elasticity of demand. So [01:04:25] there are some things that if you could make, if you could increase the supply, [01:04:30] it’ll increase the demand. So let me give you an example. Like my brother’s a radiologist in [01:04:35] hospital.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So they would like to every time you hit your head give you an MRI. [01:04:40] Yeah. But the cost wise, it’s not every time if you hit your head and [01:04:45] you feel a bit dizzy and whatever concussion, then they’ll give you an MRI. But [01:04:50] they would like to do more of those. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Doctors generally would like to take [01:04:55] more investigations.

Patrycja Galonzka: Of course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So as AI and robotics, everything gets [01:05:00] more more investigations can be done. So the supply demand side of that [01:05:05] will go up. Yeah, but there are other jobs, like, let’s say, the person who handles complaints [01:05:10] in your practice. Yes. Yeah. You probably. Um.

Patrycja Galonzka: And my practice operationally, [01:05:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The number of complaints won’t go up. Yeah. [01:05:20] Handling of the complaints will be done by a robot. Mhm. Yeah. But the number won’t [01:05:25] go up, so that job is in danger. Yeah, yeah. [01:05:30] Whereas the other job where the number will go up. Yes. As cost goes down, that job won’t [01:05:35] be so in danger. Mhm. Yeah. But it’s a worry. It’s a worry insomuch as if 30% [01:05:40] of the population lose their jobs, which is what they’re saying might happen. Who’s going to buy everything? [01:05:45] You know, like. Yes, yes. What’s going to happen to that 30%? [01:05:50]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. It’s a it’s a lot of unknown. Yes. For sure. [01:05:55] Like we can predict, we can think what is going to happen.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the first time, though, that [01:06:00] you can’t really tell what’s going to be like in 3 or 4 years time.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely, yes. [01:06:05]

Payman Langroudi: Because throughout history, even when the internet came out, you could kind of say, yeah, three [01:06:10] years time, you could kind of see what’s around the corner. Mhm. But now it’s really tough to [01:06:15] say, you know, it’s like it is.

Patrycja Galonzka: And it can be very overwhelming. Yeah, it can be very overwhelming. [01:06:20] And especially like for us in dentistry, our [01:06:25] AI can do X-rays. Ai can now answer your phone. Ai can do your [01:06:30] data and then ask us and managers as well, or leaders, we [01:06:35] need to make sure that we actually understand it, and then we can use it. [01:06:40] And the team feels confident as well to use it because it’s so easy to just get overwhelmed [01:06:45] and then you end up, I’m not doing anything. Yeah. And then you still [01:06:50] in that manual process, which is wrong.

Payman Langroudi: Because.

Patrycja Galonzka: You should [01:06:55] embrace it. I’m not saying use it all the time for everything. Take [01:07:00] step by step. And I still have a lot to learn.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:07:05] very early days yet.

Patrycja Galonzka: But I’m very excited for sure. Very excited [01:07:10] if that can help us. People behind the scenes and our patients. [01:07:15] I’m for it.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about business models that [01:07:20] you’ve seen that are different. When [01:07:25] I say business models, it could be patient journeys that are different. So [01:07:30] we’re doing this. I don’t know if you’ve seen it. We’re doing this event at Ministry of Sound.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m coming. Are you? Yes. I’m very [01:07:35] excited. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So one of the features of it is we’re going to have um, different patient [01:07:40] journeys that are working well, like, like Ted style, like 20 minute presentations. [01:07:45] Yeah. But there’s different patient journeys. So one, one, one person, for instance, within [01:07:50] one, two years, two years, they’ve got each [01:07:55] room producing half £1 million within two years. And from a squat. [01:08:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And their whole thing is about filtering patients, saying no [01:08:05] to patients. And only the ones that that are correct end up sitting [01:08:10] in front of you. And then once they’re sitting in front of you, they’re going to go ahead with comprehensive treatment [01:08:15] because they filtered them like one thing they don’t do is treat toothache pain. [01:08:20] They when someone calls up and says, I’m in pain, they go, sorry, that’s not us. And [01:08:25] they refer them out to a different practice. Yeah. Because they’re saying that patient hasn’t [01:08:30] been through our filter.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That’s so interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So that’s a different [01:08:35] patient journey.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or there’s another one in Scotland. Amber. She’s got she’s [01:08:40] running privately, fully privately. But therapist led. Yeah. [01:08:45] So most of the work is being done by therapists. Mhm. And she’s [01:08:50] training her therapists up to like, MSC level. Wow. In, like, minimally invasive dentistry. [01:08:55] Um, there are specialists. There are dentists as well. Yes, yes. But the therapists charge exactly [01:09:00] the same price as the dentists for the for the restorations. Because why not if they’re trained to [01:09:05] the same standard. And so she’s done a killing. She’s doing really, really well. Or [01:09:10] there’s one guy he’s I don’t know, he’s bought his practice for £240,000. [01:09:15] Four years later he sold it for 3.2 million by. So then he’s opened [01:09:20] it seven days a week.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Each associate is allowed to [01:09:25] go down one particular route. So if one of them is endo, the [01:09:30] next one can’t be endo. The next one is ortho.

Patrycja Galonzka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: The next one’s [01:09:35] uh, full mouth, the next one’s surgery. Then he makes those associates go to, um, [01:09:40] masters level that they have to go study part time and just get really, really [01:09:45] good at that job. Um, then he gets the youngest person in the team, like a 27 [01:09:50] year old dentist and calls that person the clinical director. Yeah. [01:09:55] And the idea behind that is their closest to university, and they haven’t been polluted [01:10:00] by the financial side. Yeah, the business side. So they set the [01:10:05] sort of the educational empowerment.

Patrycja Galonzka: Hey. Yes, that’s definitely empowerment. [01:10:10]

Payman Langroudi: And it’s open seven days a week because everyone in the team works one weekend in [01:10:15] five. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So is a rotation. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And he pays the full days [01:10:20] salary on the Saturday and Sunday. But on Saturday it’s a short day. On Sunday it’s an even shorter day. [01:10:25] Yeah. Yeah. And even he does it. He does the weekends as well. So it’s open seven days a week. And then [01:10:30] he reinvests quite a lot, you know, to make all this happen you have to reinvest.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Of course. [01:10:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So these are these are alternative journeys right. Alternative ideas industry. Have you got [01:10:40] any.

Patrycja Galonzka: Hmm.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got one. Why do you think about it? What [01:10:45] about your lifetime guarantee on dentistry, [01:10:50] but charge double the price? Yes. [01:10:55] How much do you guys charge for a crown?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, if you ask me the cost, I’m not really in [01:11:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: It’ll be. It’ll be like, let’s say it’ll be like.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think it’s about.

Payman Langroudi: £900 or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: No less than that. [01:11:05] £700 possibly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: £500. Yeah. You have a new crown. Yeah. It’s [01:11:10] £1,000 crown. Double the price. Yeah. But this crown, it’s got a lifetime guarantee on it. Yeah. [01:11:15] Now you sell it to the patient based on lifetime guarantee, right? That’s [01:11:20] that’s why it’s this price.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a lifetime guarantee on it. You’re going to have to do a [01:11:25] great job because you don’t want it to fail.

Patrycja Galonzka: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Lifetime guarantee.

Patrycja Galonzka: So you don’t need to see that patient [01:11:30] again to.

Payman Langroudi: Replace.

Patrycja Galonzka: It. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Once you’ve done a lot of these, some of them will fail. Like, [01:11:35] I don’t know, 18 years time if you’re still there.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s going to fail. The guy already [01:11:40] paid twice for it. Yeah. All of them paid twice to start with. So you can replace [01:11:45] all of them. Not you’re not going to replace all of them.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But whatever you replace, you should do with your [01:11:50] big smile on your face because you paid twice for it anyway. You paid double to start with. Yeah. [01:11:55] You say to patients, our USP is we’re the only practice [01:12:00] in the town and the country. Wherever you want that there’s a lifetime guarantee. Why do we do it? Because [01:12:05] we do it right the first time. Yeah. We want our patients to be happy. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: That’s so great.

Payman Langroudi: There [01:12:10] is a problem, though, when you come to sell the practice. Yeah. There’s all these lifetime guarantees.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: But but you tell the buyer. Yeah. Okay. This is what you’re buying on [01:12:20] on paper based on my EBITDA. The practice is worth 3.2 million. But because of [01:12:25] these lifetime guarantees I’ll settle for three. 3 million. Like you know what I mean? You work it out. [01:12:30] So you buy an insurance product or something. Yeah, but this is what I’m asking. Variable patient [01:12:35] journeys or business models? What comes to mind when I say that? Have you thought of any. You seen any. [01:12:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Mm. That’s a tricky question because [01:12:45] you already took the patient’s journey, which I think is so important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know your [01:12:50] patient journey like you say, empowerment. Yeah. Like, did you tell your staff we want [01:12:55] the patient to be super happy, do whatever it takes to do that? Is that what you mean by empowerment or does everyone get [01:13:00] offered a flat white or what is it? You know, like.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, I think [01:13:05] what the value is for our patient’s journey is to yes, [01:13:10] of course, to help them, to make sure they feel satisfied with [01:13:15] their service, with the service we offer. But I think it’s more for us that it [01:13:20] proves that we actually deliver that exceptional patient’s journey. So [01:13:25] they refer other people. So, you know, like the marketing, yes, you can [01:13:30] have a lot of leads coming through. But in our practice, the most people actually coming [01:13:35] from referral.

Payman Langroudi: Word of.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mouth. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a healthy sign.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, exactly. [01:13:40] So yes, we have a marketing in place, but there’s a lot of people oh, my best friend [01:13:45] or actually my hairdresser as well. And they speak to their [01:13:50] families, their friends. And I think this is really remarkable.

Payman Langroudi: They tell each other [01:13:55] about you is what their lovely. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: So they they say that the team [01:14:00] is really nice, friendly, professional. They feel [01:14:05] heard. And also it’s clear. So when they come [01:14:10] in it’s clear what we can do. What can we not do. And when you said about [01:14:15] selection as well we we do that too. So we have a two stage [01:14:20] process of our consultation. For that reason we try like just. Oh yeah. [01:14:25] Console. Yeah. Let’s go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: To what is it a TCO that season first.

Patrycja Galonzka: We’ve got no it’s a [01:14:30] clinical LED. Yeah. Okay. Clinical led supported by the TCO. Okay. So the [01:14:35] first conversation when they come into the practice is more about finding their [01:14:40] goals, what they want to achieve. And then what can we do. And [01:14:45] that’s the proposal. Then they go to the TCO. We use time again some [01:14:50] AI videos. Um, we then do self checks for finance [01:14:55] if needed. Then we have a picture of the person that we’ve just [01:15:00] seen.

Payman Langroudi: What it’s up to.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. Then we follow up and if they’re coming back [01:15:05] for the second appointment, they pretty much know that they already want to go ahead when [01:15:10] they usually pay deposit on the day, and then we book the next appointment when it’s actually [01:15:15] treatment, but we take our time.

Payman Langroudi: And do you offer a free consult [01:15:20] from the marketing?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So we pay. They have to pay £25 deposit. [01:15:25] Yes, but it’s fully refundable or it goes goes towards their treatment. Yes. Yes. [01:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: And then the follow up process. How do you know what, who has to follow up? What is there some sort of CRM. [01:15:35]

Patrycja Galonzka: We have a CRM and we use um we had lead flow. [01:15:40] Yes, yes. Um, and then we use our TCO. So we [01:15:45] have a spreadsheet as well, which is great to have like a proper system in AI, but [01:15:50] at the moment we use a spreadsheets. So we have a different steps for follow up when, [01:15:55] how often, how do we do it? But we usually agree with the patients on the [01:16:00] day and the time that we want to call them.

Payman Langroudi: So when you see them the first time.

Patrycja Galonzka: So [01:16:05] we don’t just let them go.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good time to call.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. We agree. So they actually adding into their calendar. [01:16:10] So they know that we’re going to call or we’re going to contact. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: And you know that idea that some people have decided already, some people take six months [01:16:20] to decide, oh yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or 18 months, 18 months. Yeah, I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Still being clear on that. Yeah. [01:16:25] Like I remember when I was a dentist, that just wasn’t an idea. Yeah. So we [01:16:30] do the examination. The guy said, I’ll think about it. Yeah. They do two follow ups. That’d be the end of [01:16:35] that. Gone. Finished. Yeah. And but sometimes people do take time, you know, like it’s [01:16:40] a thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Because it comes to the spending the money. Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:45] So if they’re coming into the practice, they already, like you said, yes. They feel anxious, [01:16:50] a little bit unsure what’s going to happen. But yeah, how much you’re going to spend. [01:16:55] And of course we talk about they start from like a few thousands. [01:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: And are you, how autonomous are you as far as recruitment? Like, [01:17:05] are you the person hiring all the nurses? And yes, without the principle involved? [01:17:10]

Patrycja Galonzka: No, of course he is involved.

Payman Langroudi: He gets involved in the hiring of all the nurses as well.

Patrycja Galonzka: So [01:17:15] we have a process for it. So same again filter. I would say same [01:17:20] thing for hiring. So hire slow fire fast. [01:17:25] So we take time. Um, and then we’ve learned as well from [01:17:30] the day when we’ve opened the practice to now going back to the values, you [01:17:35] won’t have a people who have the similar values. Yeah. So they see this profession [01:17:40] as a long term goal.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: And they feel [01:17:45] proud of working in healthcare. Yeah. Not just oh you know, [01:17:50] I can have. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re good at it.

Patrycja Galonzka: I’m [01:17:55] getting there. I want to be better. Same again. I want to be better version [01:18:00] of myself every single day.

Payman Langroudi: I think that recruitment is such a funny thing because you can of course, you [01:18:05] can get better at it. Yeah. But sometimes you have the perfect process and [01:18:10] the person starts and it’s just not the person you thought they were, you know?

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, [01:18:15] there’s even ways around that, right? Come in for trial weeks or whatever. Do you do that trial days and weeks?

Patrycja Galonzka: Not [01:18:20] the weeks. No. We do like interview zoom, some questionnaire, [01:18:25] observation and trial. Yeah. For a few hours. But you’re right. [01:18:30] You never really truly know.

Payman Langroudi: Until you know.

Patrycja Galonzka: Until you know. Yes. [01:18:35]

Payman Langroudi: And have you got, like, favourite questions? Questions that like I, I like the I [01:18:40] mean, it’s a classic. What are what you’re bad at kind of question. Yeah. Your weakness question.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, [01:18:45] yeah. Same.

Payman Langroudi: And a lot of people don’t want to say it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Or they.

Payman Langroudi: Or they don’t, I.

Patrycja Galonzka: Don’t know. [01:18:50] Yes.

Payman Langroudi: I yeah. And I find that it’s such a turn off for me when someone says that [01:18:55] because it’s like, what? You don’t know yourself.

Patrycja Galonzka: Like I would say it’s a little bit concerning [01:19:00] as well. Because if you don’t know your weaknesses.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know yourself, right? [01:19:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: No. And all you do is like, oh, it’s the ego thing. I know everything, I [01:19:10] know best. I can do anything really.

Payman Langroudi: And then in [01:19:15] appraisal, do you get them to give themselves a score on stuff [01:19:20] or.

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yes. Well, the thing is same with appraisals in so many practices. [01:19:25] Only happens once a year. Yeah, but I’m not against [01:19:30] doing it. But I have a 1 to 1 with my team every so often. [01:19:35]

Payman Langroudi: How often?

Patrycja Galonzka: I would say probably every two weeks. Ooh, [01:19:40] yes. Awesome times. More like together. Because your goals [01:19:45] can change. And as you said with your company, you’ve got one idea for one week. [01:19:50] The next week you have another idea. Same in our practice.

Payman Langroudi: But is it, is it like, [01:19:55] is it, um, a structured thing or you’re literally sitting, having a cup of tea with someone? Is it. [01:20:00] Are there things you’re asking them or are you trying to figure them out? What are you trying to do? Give me some sense [01:20:05] of it.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So it’s a different frameworks you follow when it comes just purely to the job [01:20:10] role. Yes. We have to follow the procedures, make sure we fully compliant. Yeah. But [01:20:15] touch base on actually are you happy with what you’re doing. Is [01:20:20] that make you satisfied? You know, I don’t want to have people coming into [01:20:25] work being miserable and then spread that miserable vibe around. [01:20:30] And sometimes it happens, you know, in your life, you might have a bad day. [01:20:35] Yeah. Then now I’ve opened in my book. Um, there’s two slots per week. [01:20:40] Any team member can just book time with me to speak to me. So a part of [01:20:45] like the 1 to 1 appraisals, they can just book their appointment there. [01:20:50] And it’s usually like around lunch time. Two different slots. So they can literally [01:20:55] just book their appointment, let’s say sit down with me and then just talk to me because [01:21:00] it’s a wellbeing. It’s very, very important as well. So yes, you can have your goals, [01:21:05] PDP in place, hit the numbers. But actually, is [01:21:10] that all making you feeling happy?

Payman Langroudi: That could be on paper all look great, but you’re [01:21:15] actually not a happy person.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point. It’s a very good point.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you. [01:21:20]

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes on this pod. I mean with the dentists it would be a clinical mistake [01:21:25] because dentists don’t like talking about their clinical mistakes. And so we never learn from [01:21:30] each other’s mistakes. Mhm. What comes to mind if I ask you, what’s been some of your biggest mistakes [01:21:35] in this career that you’ve carved.

Patrycja Galonzka: I [01:21:40] think I’ve got two that comes into my mind. So [01:21:45] the first one, I was definitely avoiding [01:21:50] difficult conversations with the people I was responsible for. Mhm. Yes. [01:21:55] I was the new person in the country. I think that was also a [01:22:00] barrier for me. But you didn’t want to be in that difficult conversation [01:22:05] because you were afraid that people will not like you anymore. Yeah. [01:22:10]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think do you think there’s, like, a, a line that you have to draw that you can’t get too [01:22:15] close to your people?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So have you approached that point [01:22:20] and had to like, yeah. Pull back.

Patrycja Galonzka: I had to learn because before going [01:22:25] back to the difficult conversation, like leadership is not to be [01:22:30] nice that people like you. I think it’s the kindness. [01:22:35] The kindness is care. So if you’re kind, you [01:22:40] will be honest. You will exactly say, oh, look, um, I think [01:22:45] I’ve observed or the data shows me. I think we should do [01:22:50] a, b, c how can I get you there? You need to be very fair, very [01:22:55] honest and kind. And people feel okay [01:23:00] with it because you’re not being horrible, you’re not [01:23:05] being nagging and you are there for them to show that. [01:23:10] Yes, I understand we can make mistakes, but I’m here with you on this journey.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:15] tactics for that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Tactics for that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like for [01:23:20] instance, do you do things like let’s, let’s say someone’s done something wrong and [01:23:25] you want to put that thing right or whatever. Do you start with what they did right first [01:23:30] and then go Going to.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So I think there is a structure [01:23:35] how to handle these conversations.

Payman Langroudi: Second nature for you now. You just don’t even realise you’re doing it. Yeah. [01:23:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: You have to start with the good parts first. Because if you start with only the bad, the, [01:23:45] the vibe and the energy in the room is already.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:23:50] person doesn’t feel seen either. Right? They feel like you’ve already seen.

Patrycja Galonzka: It already, like, oh, what I’m [01:23:55] doing here? Or they’re just hoping for this conversation to end. But when [01:24:00] you start with the goods, then this is amazing. Great. You’ve done A, [01:24:05] B, C what do you think? How do you feel about it? Oh yeah. Great. I didn’t [01:24:10] think I could do it. Thank you so much. Okay, now let’s move to.

Payman Langroudi: X, [01:24:15] Y, and z. Yes.

Patrycja Galonzka: So I’m not saying you’re doing this wrong. However, [01:24:20] I always say I believe you could do it better. What can I do for [01:24:25] you? Oh, actually, yes, you’re right. I didn’t realise that. Would you [01:24:30] mind to help me? Yeah. Of course. And then we put the plan in place. Then [01:24:35] another 1 to 1. We sit down. We had some time to review [01:24:40] it. To try it. Yeah. Actually, I’m fine now. Amazing. We [01:24:45] can continue.

Payman Langroudi: What was the other mistake?

Patrycja Galonzka: Well, [01:24:50] I think the second mistake [01:24:55] it was. Yes. It’s something with the culture as well. So [01:25:00] going to the difficult conversations I think I [01:25:05] haven’t addressed the anti values on time. And you [01:25:10] and I feel guilty for it to be honest because you pass through them. [01:25:15] You’ve seen them. You know they were there but you’ve never addressed [01:25:20] them. Yeah. So that becomes standard. Now that becomes your operational [01:25:25] rhythm within the practice and it’s [01:25:30] too late to fix it because people think, oh, she didn’t say anything.

Payman Langroudi: So get specific though. [01:25:35]

Patrycja Galonzka: Specific.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What was the anti anti values. [01:25:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Blaming people. Blaming other people for their [01:25:45] mistakes or resistance to change and [01:25:50] keep complaining. I don’t want to do this. I, I don’t [01:25:55] want to use this AI. Why do we want to use it. Why do I have to use it. [01:26:00] Or blaming. That’s not my fault. She said this. It’s [01:26:05] really common, but I think you have to address them. You need to speak about them being [01:26:10] transparent. And I’m not saying the antivirus only comes from your staffy or managing [01:26:15] it comes from us as well. If I say I will [01:26:20] do this for you, but I will never follow up, I [01:26:25] will never going to do it. How are you going to feel?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So next time [01:26:30] you say something like that, no one’s going to believe you.

Patrycja Galonzka: Exactly. All I’d say I know all the answers.

Payman Langroudi: How [01:26:35] do you keep organised? I mean, like, you’ve got all these conversations going on with these people. I’m going to check back [01:26:40] with you to make sure success looks like this. How is it like just a calendar? Like, how do you [01:26:45] know what to do when you might just be super, super organised person to be [01:26:50] pulling this off?

Patrycja Galonzka: Same again. That’s also a mistake and a lesson I had to learn. It’s [01:26:55] it’s the time management really, because you can get busy but [01:27:00] not effective really so easily. You busy busy in [01:27:05] that firefighting mode, one job, next job and that workload [01:27:10] never ends and you feel like you never finished. Time management [01:27:15] is the key and something I really encouraging my team to do as well. So I mean my [01:27:20] time.

Payman Langroudi: Priority prioritising the right thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s like a traffic light red orange, [01:27:25] green. But I blocked my actual diary for specific tasks. So I [01:27:30] do like to do this on Sunday evenings. Some people do Fridays to switch [01:27:35] off for the weekend, but I actually do it on Sunday evening. I review the book. [01:27:40] I usually read the reports from my staff, what happened from the week before [01:27:45] so I can see what worked, what we need to work on it or improve, [01:27:50] and then I schedule my week accordingly, so I.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:27:55] do you look forward to Monday morning?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, because I’m organised.

Payman Langroudi: How does that take you on a Sunday night? [01:28:00]

Patrycja Galonzka: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: How long does it take?

Patrycja Galonzka: How long? I think because I do it every [01:28:05] week now. And we have a systems in place like the handover from my staff. [01:28:10] So I see what happened in each day. And I just go through it probably [01:28:15] like one hour, one hour and a half. Then I block my time. Few [01:28:20] specific key tasks.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massive discipline thing in itself. Yeah. Like I’m sure like if [01:28:25] you go out there in public and ask 100 people in the street, do you do 1.5 hours [01:28:30] of work on a Sunday night for your job? I’m sure there’d be plenty of people completely like, [01:28:35] you know, disgusted by that idea. Yeah. On Sunday evenings. That’s my time, right? [01:28:40]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. I heard a lot of feedbacks like that. That’s so sad. What [01:28:45] are you doing? This. But I just love my look.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got a thing. I’ve [01:28:50] got a thing. Yeah. A lot of our team are remote. Yeah. Like. Oh, yes. Your friend Lee is [01:28:55] in South Africa.

Patrycja Galonzka: I know.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and I’ve got a little bugbear. Yeah. [01:29:00] That is if I send a WhatsApp at nine at night. Yeah. [01:29:05] I don’t mind if you’re, if you’re playing tennis or you’re with your kids or whatever and you don’t [01:29:10] answer. No problem. Yeah, sure. But if you see it. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Answer [01:29:15] it. Yeah. Because they’re remote anyway. [01:29:20] I mean, my most of my team come in one day a week or one day a fortnight. Sometimes [01:29:25] there’s nothing I can do about whether or not they’re 100% working for [01:29:30] me at that time. And, you know, you can you can have the person’s body in the building, but [01:29:35] it’s really their brain and their heart that you really want, right?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but I’m saying you’re [01:29:40] remote. Yeah. You can get up and go to the shop at any moment, and I will. I’ll never know anything [01:29:45] about it. Yeah. But if I send you a WhatsApp at 8 p.m. and your work hours, say [01:29:50] 530, and you see the WhatsApp? Yeah, if you don’t see it. Okay. Of course, [01:29:55] you see the WhatsApp. Don’t get on this sort of high horse. I’m not working right now. Yeah, [01:30:00] it’s a bugbear, man. So but it annoys people when I bring it up. Like if I say that I [01:30:05] kind of. You’re not allowed to say that.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, I get your point as [01:30:10] well as the other side too. But I think if you. Yeah, [01:30:15] working on things together in your team.

Payman Langroudi: Then in my mind works best at night [01:30:20] time. And by the way, there’s some people. Answer me at midnight.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. Okay. [01:30:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There are. There’s some people like that too. Yeah, I love that. But there’s some people. 532 [01:30:30] no answer.

Patrycja Galonzka: 9 to 5 mine.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. They’re [01:30:35] out. Yeah. You can’t complain about it because that’s they’re being paid from 9 to 5 or whatever. [01:30:40] Yeah. But I’m saying because of this extra thing about remote, like you guys don’t get it [01:30:45] in a dental practice. You have to turn up. You have to, you know, see people, you have to it’s [01:30:50] a, it’s a reason why it’s so hard to get recruitment now because there’s so many people [01:30:55] working from home. Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. They want flexibility. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:31:00] interesting. We’re coming to the end of our time. I’m going to hit you with some quick fire [01:31:05] kind of questions.

Patrycja Galonzka: All right.

Payman Langroudi: But before I do, what’s your amazing outcome [01:31:10] for if we were sitting again in five years time, what would [01:31:15] you like to have achieved?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh, I love that question. Is a very, [01:31:20] very deep question. And same again, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Sit ambitious as you. [01:31:25]

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah. So you have to really pose to know [01:31:30] where you want to go. And I would love to have my business [01:31:35] running with my Caesar framework.

Payman Langroudi: Your consulting business.

Patrycja Galonzka: Absolutely. Helping people, [01:31:40] raising the standards.

Payman Langroudi: Making the difference. You make time for that with your existing [01:31:45] job. What’s the story? What if you get a new customer?

Patrycja Galonzka: I’ve reduced my hours at Aspire Smiles, [01:31:50] hence why we are so on systems so I can still keep an eye on what’s happening. [01:31:55] The handover has been in the morning. Huddle has been just a game changer. [01:32:00]

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing morning huddle every day?

Patrycja Galonzka: Yes. Handovers weekly.

Payman Langroudi: What did you go through in the morning [01:32:05] huddle? Like who’s coming in? Lab work. Who do we need to get reviews from this sort of thing.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s a mixture. [01:32:10] So at the moment, because I’m starting a little bit later, I’m dropping my daughter to school. [01:32:15] Same again. It comes to empowerment. My practice operationally does them. [01:32:20] She was very nervous at the start. A few rounds. The team had a [01:32:25] good feedback from it and she was like, Patricia, I feel like I’m in control now. Thank you. So [01:32:30] we go through a different different scenarios. What we did good yesterday, what we could [01:32:35] improve, what we have a plan for today. The main goals let’s [01:32:40] say patience. Are there any patients coming that we can either get them [01:32:45] on testimonials, social media content or if they have a birthday, go [01:32:50] get them a chocolates. So it’s a mixture of a different it’s not just a boring, like [01:32:55] you said, lab work. Yes, it’s important, but that should be already part of your system [01:33:00] checked before. Really, this should be more about qualitative. Yes, [01:33:05] definitely. Yeah. So in five years, five years, I [01:33:10] would like to have my business running fully.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Patrycja Galonzka: Seeing [01:33:15] my results coming through from people saying, yes, Patricia, [01:33:20] we’ve reduced the chaos in the practice. There is not so much firefighting. [01:33:25] Our people enjoy what they do. The burnout goes low. And [01:33:30] I think dentistry, yes, is my first step. But I see this more as a health [01:33:35] care, you see.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, I know a couple of, uh, who are [01:33:40] they? One, one was a practice manager and one was a hygienist [01:33:45] who owned their own practices now.

Patrycja Galonzka: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And some of the things they’ve [01:33:50] done that already and some of enlightened biggest users. Yeah. But, you know, [01:33:55] the insight they’ve got is they’ll, they’ll put their associates on a course. Yes. [01:34:00] And they’ll make sure the following week this treatment that that course. [01:34:05]

Patrycja Galonzka: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Addresses. Yeah. Like we do courses or we do composite course. [01:34:10] There’s a bunch of people come on the course and don’t do a single composite bonding case until [01:34:15] six months later when they’ve forgotten everything. Yeah, but she because she’s been in [01:34:20] a practice, you know, she’s done your kind of working through a practice, understand [01:34:25] she pays for the course for the associate herself. And the following week when the [01:34:30] associate comes in this composite bonding cases and then and then suddenly that person becomes [01:34:35] a composite bonding dentist. You know, like it works. It works.

Patrycja Galonzka: It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. You’ve thought about owning [01:34:40] a practice?

Patrycja Galonzka: Not necessarily. I think a few years ago, yes. [01:34:45] And I had a conversation with one dentist. It [01:34:50] was just before the pandemic. And I’m wondering. Yes, but I’m glad I [01:34:55] didn’t, to be honest, because what I’m doing now, it gives me more flexibility [01:35:00] to be around other people. So I think this is my mission. [01:35:05] I don’t want to be stuck in one place. I want to be exposed. I want to share [01:35:10] what I went through my lessons, my experiences. And this [01:35:15] is something that is still happening. All the patterns, they are still happening. So [01:35:20] yeah. No no no.

Payman Langroudi: Quick fire, [01:35:25] quick fire. What’s your favourite business resource or book or podcast [01:35:30] or whatever you said. Simon Sinek.

Patrycja Galonzka: Simon Sinek. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:35:35] anyone else.

Patrycja Galonzka: He’s about the leadership and Chris Barro. Oh yeah. I love Chris [01:35:40] Barro concept. Um, same KPI’s leadership. Your [01:35:45] sustainable growth comes from leadership and systems. And he’s really forward thinking about AI. [01:35:50] And that connects with me a lot. Um, with regards to the books. [01:35:55] Glennis Bridges she was my mentor. So I’ve done my qualifications [01:36:00] with her. Um, oh yeah. She’s very close to my heart. She was [01:36:05] with me throughout all my journey. Believe with me even when I doubted myself, [01:36:10] to be honest. But yeah, I do love to listen to podcasts, [01:36:15] not just in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Which one?

Patrycja Galonzka: Because it’s a business related. So from [01:36:20] Simon Sinek, Steven Bartlett, different type of podcasts just [01:36:25] then every time something new and bringing into the practice like Mel Robbins, [01:36:30] I think she’s my top one because she’s speaking a lot about mindset. [01:36:35] Yeah. So the settings in our brain and the way she explained [01:36:40] settings in your brain, like in your computer, you can change them.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the name [01:36:45] of the pod? Is it just her name?

Patrycja Galonzka: Oh yeah. It was just one of the podcasts with, oh.

Payman Langroudi: She was a [01:36:50] guest somewhere.

Patrycja Galonzka: Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. So oh, the weather, the weather you bring into the company. [01:36:55] Same again. It’s from the Mel Robbins. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Anything else come to mind [01:37:00] like resource wise?

Patrycja Galonzka: Um [01:37:05] not particularly. I think I’m like trying to explore lots of different [01:37:10] resources. To be honest.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your what’s your favourite treatment in dentistry? [01:37:15]

Patrycja Galonzka: Invisalign. Is it because I had it done?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Patrycja Galonzka: And enlightened combined [01:37:20] it together. Yeah, but Invisalign, it was the one for me, [01:37:25] for sure. It was really interesting to understand the way [01:37:30] it’s done from the patient perspective. So yeah, I enjoyed it. It took [01:37:35] some time. I think it it taught me to be patient as well, to be honest and [01:37:40] discipline. You have to change it every week.

Payman Langroudi: And so so you’re so disciplined, right? You’re [01:37:45] so hardworking. What’s your guilty pleasure?

Patrycja Galonzka: Hmm. [01:37:50] I don’t know if it’s guilty pleasure, but I love my hot pot yoga. [01:37:55]

Payman Langroudi: Like, that’s not guilty pleasure. Well, I’m [01:38:00] thinking more KFC, man. Oh, guilty. Guilty pleasure. Guilty [01:38:05] pleasure. Some some crap thing you watch on TV or something.

Patrycja Galonzka: The thing [01:38:10] is, I don’t really watch TV that much. I think my.

Payman Langroudi: Guilt is flicking through TikTok.

Patrycja Galonzka: No, [01:38:15] I think I’m quite bad with Friday evening. I ordered some Indian food [01:38:20] every week on Friday.

Payman Langroudi: That’s all right.

Patrycja Galonzka: I think that’s my guilty [01:38:25] pleasure. And yeah, something. I just have to have it once a week.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:38:30] been a massive pleasure having you. Really has so much. I’ve learned so much from you the way you, [01:38:35] your mindset, your positivity, your positivity. Really, really excellent. [01:38:40] Thank you so much for coming all this way.

Patrycja Galonzka: Thank you for having me. Really, it was great.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. Hope you enjoyed [01:38:45] today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [01:38:50] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really [01:38:55] appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:39:00] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:39:05] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast has been brought to you by Mini Smile Makeover. Mini Smile Makeover is a two day anterior [00:00:05] composite course led by the extraordinary talented doctor Dipesh Palmer. Two [00:00:10] days of full on, hands on composite training purely focussed [00:00:15] on anterior work, composite veneers, polishing, finishing, shade matching. You also [00:00:20] get a free enlightened kit. Plus we have a great time and a party in the middle. Find out the [00:00:25] dates mini Smile makeover.com. Now let’s get back to the podcast.

VOICE: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:35] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:40] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome again to the Dental [00:00:55] leaders podcast, acne. And I go back quite a long way. Um, actually, [00:01:00] it’s become internationally known as, uh, minimally invasive [00:01:05] direct composite expert. Um, goes around the world [00:01:10] lecturing and actually lecturing tomorrow in London. Um, so we’ve managed to grab you now, [00:01:15] as well as being the clinical lead at the Baltic Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry. [00:01:20] Agni is our distributor for enlighten in Lithuania. Um, [00:01:25] a bio emulation accredited. Is that the way you say it?

Agne Malisauskiene: A member [00:01:30] of bio member.

Payman Langroudi: Of bio emulation has been on ripe global, really creating a fantastic [00:01:35] career and really putting Vilnius on the dental map [00:01:40] for, you know, world experts now land in Vilnius, um, [00:01:45] through Agni. And it’s a beautiful place that I came to with the beautiful sunshine. [00:01:50] Lovely to have you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, thank you for having me. First and foremost, it’s super [00:01:55] exciting. Um, I think we talked about this a couple years ago. Yeah. And [00:02:00] and, you know, it takes time, right. Um, it’s lovely to be here. And yes, [00:02:05] we’ve met years.

Payman Langroudi: When was it, when was the first time you met?

Agne Malisauskiene: Years ago. Um. [00:02:10]

Payman Langroudi: I feel like IDs.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was IDs. And JJ was [00:02:15] my older son. He was, um, a year and a half. So [00:02:20] that means it’s exactly seven years ago. This is when we met. [00:02:25]

Payman Langroudi: Is he eight and a half?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, he’s eight and a half, so it’s easy to count. Um, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: I should [00:02:30] have thrown in. Mother of two. Along with the whole thing. The juggle is real, [00:02:35] huh?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. Um. It’s fun. It’s fun.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:40] from that time till now, your career has been absolutely [00:02:45] rocketing.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a roller coaster.

Payman Langroudi: Must be. Must feel like [00:02:50] that for you.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. I do remember when we met in the first time [00:02:55] I came to the mini smile makeover, I remember I was so [00:03:00] excited and it was. Everything was so interesting [00:03:05] and I thought, like, how and why would you, um, [00:03:10] trust in me? Because I came as a help for Depeche [00:03:15] and I was like, you met me. We talked for like, uh, I don’t know, two minutes, [00:03:20] three minutes. And you’re like, so you’re coming to mini smile makeover. I have this idea. I [00:03:25] was like, how would you. I just don’t know you though.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:03:30] knew you from before. Like that wasn’t the first time I had met you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. So, [00:03:35] um, I came then and I’ve been coming for, [00:03:40] for a while, I guess up to the, up to the Covid or Brexit or whatever [00:03:45] thing. It was like.

Payman Langroudi: You know what always used to make me feel amazing like, like this mother of two [00:03:50] is getting on a plane and coming all the way to London to help out [00:03:55] on a composite course, and then go all the way back, and you must you must have done that a good six, [00:04:00] eight times. Yeah. Um, and I thought the determination of this person. [00:04:05]

Agne Malisauskiene: Was a mother of one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you were the one back then. At the time.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [00:04:10] no, you don’t understand. I learned loads. Like I learned loads. [00:04:15] I learned a lot about, um, giving a course, [00:04:20] about teaching a course. I learned a lot about hospitality [00:04:25] of the course. Like so many things come into play and unless you’re [00:04:30] not running your own courses, you have no clue. And this is why [00:04:35] I always say that if someone really wants to do their own courses, oh, [00:04:40] I just dare them and I’m the one to. I’m just gonna watch you after the the day. I’m [00:04:45] just gonna look in your eyes.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just events are tough. It’s tough to make money. [00:04:50] It’s tough to make them amazing without losing money, is what I found. Yes. Um, like [00:04:55] the one I came to in Vilnius. What an amazing event that was. You got just that. I mean, it was amazing [00:05:00] weather, but the outside bit. You guys have done live music, like [00:05:05] some Michelin star food coming out and stuff. And, um, you know, the weird [00:05:10] that it’s kind of like being a dentist that the better, the harder you try, the less [00:05:15] money you make. It is.

Agne Malisauskiene: Always like that because you want everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: Better, you want materials better, [00:05:20] you want equipment better, you want this, that, and then it suddenly becomes you [00:05:25] buying a new camera. It’s just like a pocket money, kind of, because then you bought something [00:05:30] crazy ahead of time. And it is what it is. And [00:05:35] it’s true. And I think that I learned so much and, [00:05:40] um, I would never have done this without you. So [00:05:45] yeah. No, no, no, I told you, you’re my favourite person in Dental industry. I’ve [00:05:50] told you that many times, you know. So this is a thing, you know, I learned a lot. And then [00:05:55] I’m not the one to hide it where I learned it from. So I really like [00:06:00] to, you know, I’m very grateful.

Payman Langroudi: I like that man. I mean, you guys have been so [00:06:05] professional, much more professional than us. When I came over the mantas, [00:06:10] your husband, who handles the the back end of it, sent me all these amazing notes [00:06:15] on what to do from the airport, how to get into Vilnius, how to get to your facility, [00:06:20] all of that. And the facility there is amazing. Tell me about that. So how many people do [00:06:25] you train in your facility?

Agne Malisauskiene: It was meant for 16. Um, [00:06:30] but then we were counting because we were doing [00:06:35] it. We were like reconstructing it from like office building [00:06:40] into the training facility during Covid. So that was a gamble. Yeah, yeah. At the time you [00:06:45] had distancing and first When we started out, we didn’t know if we’re gonna [00:06:50] open at all. Yeah. And then that was a gamble. And then, um, [00:06:55] then new regulation about the social distancing came about. So we counted [00:07:00] that if we see it in every other seat into the, in the row of three, [00:07:05] we would see two. And we’re like, so the math ends up being, I don’t know, 9 [00:07:10] or 10 still okay, still fine. Still we can manage that. And I was like, it’s [00:07:15] three, three, three three. So it’s two, two, two, two eight. And then it was supposed [00:07:20] to be ten. Yeah. Because two and two in the back. And um, and [00:07:25] then it was all fine again. So it was all 16 back again. And then [00:07:30] we bought phantom heads and to move around people on phantom heads because [00:07:35] you cannot go in front and you cannot take the model. You have to go around because there’s a [00:07:40] head. Now we do 1213 um, and it’s okay. [00:07:45]

Payman Langroudi: No, But how many people have gone through your courses in total? Like, what are we talking. [00:07:50] Hundreds.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thousands.

Payman Langroudi: Thousands.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, how often do you teach there? [00:07:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: I teach. It used to be 12 [00:08:00] times a year. Now it’s about six, [00:08:05] maybe seven, eight. Because now I’m away for too much. So.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:08:10] the rest of the time, other people come in.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. And the list is amazing. All [00:08:15] the way from DC to Payman Langroudi. Who else? Who else have you had there? You’ve had so many [00:08:20] amazing speakers there.

Agne Malisauskiene: Lucas Lassman. You know the guy. Um oh, [00:08:25] we we had like any, anyone and [00:08:30] everyone that we wanted at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Just list a few for me. Indulge me.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh [00:08:35] dear God.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is very difficult.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is very. Okay, so I [00:08:40] would start with, uh, Ramon Gomez, Maida And, um, Howard [00:08:45] Gluckman. So all the surgical, uh, Ricardo Kern. Kern. [00:08:50] Ricardo was three times. I think he’s booked for the next time again. [00:08:55] Um, we have quite a quite a bit of interest in those surgical [00:09:00] courses as well as composite and, um, for [00:09:05] composite, it works better on hands on for surgical, we can have larger groups. I guess [00:09:10] this is how it goes. They can handle more people. Um Dia has been [00:09:15] there twice. He’s coming back for the third time. Um, [00:09:20] I don’t know. David. Gerardo. Stefan brought we.

Payman Langroudi: He’s been there many times. [00:09:25]

Agne Malisauskiene: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Javier Tapia you’ve had Javier as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. Like I don’t know, three [00:09:30] times.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a country of you know, um, [00:09:35] I was just thinking because I was listening to your, uh, [00:09:40] to her podcast and she was like, she’s referring always. [00:09:45] Oh, I’m Eastern European. So this has happened because I’m eastern. I’m like, first and foremost, we’re Northern [00:09:50] Europeans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You’re closer to Swedish than you are to Romanian. Yeah. [00:09:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: Because we kind of look more like Norwegians.

Agne Malisauskiene: I would say. Um, in Norway, [00:10:00] everybody talks to me in Norwegian. I just walk down the street. But um, [00:10:05] but it is the land of we have way too [00:10:10] many dentists. Let’s just say that we do. I think we’re like number two or now maybe [00:10:15] number three country out of dentists per capita. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Right? So we [00:10:20] have a lot of dentists. Competition is super high. So everybody needs to be better, faster, stronger. [00:10:25]

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. I remember you telling me composite bonding was in vogue years and years and years [00:10:30] ago. Yeah. You know, because here it’s kind of, I don’t know, five, six years old [00:10:35] as far as, you know, becoming popularised. Maybe a bit more, Maybe a bit [00:10:40] more. Maybe 7 or 8 years old as far as becoming popularised. But you were telling me years ago.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:10:45] it’s kind of ahead of the curve as well in that sense.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, because it’s cheaper.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:10:50] is that why?

Agne Malisauskiene: No, it’s because it’s cheaper. And um we’re not [00:10:55] like we’re not the people to trust somebody else with our stuff. This is what I [00:11:00] think. I think we have trust issues, you know, being post-Soviet and all. Yeah. Um, and [00:11:05] then when you can do something with your hands, you know how it’s going to turn out.

Payman Langroudi: Control. [00:11:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It’s just a control freaks, basically.

Payman Langroudi: I also found Vilnius [00:11:15] very cool. I mean, I mean, cool is a funny word. Yeah. Because, you know, the kind of look on [00:11:20] people’s faces is kind of kind of, kind of, kind of standoffish. Yeah. But what I love [00:11:25] about it is that like, they kind of stand offish until they’re not. And then suddenly they’re the complete opposite, [00:11:30] like, trust you with their lives.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it is. It is like that. It is like that because [00:11:35] you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Flip is amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s the fact that everybody is like protecting [00:11:40] their own space, their environment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Up until the point that they’re [00:11:45] like, you’ve been in their environment for long enough for some, you may need five minutes, [00:11:50] for some a little bit longer. And then they’re.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: Here to get you.

Payman Langroudi: But also, but also [00:11:55] like really cool coffee shops, cool design everywhere. Um, it’s [00:12:00] you moved from here to there, didn’t you? Came here for a while. Yeah. And [00:12:05] then you moved back and what was, was the sort of the driver for that. Could you tell Vilnius [00:12:10] is happening and I need to get back. No, no, it was a.

Payman Langroudi: Driver.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, the first [00:12:15] and foremost, I never thought I’m gonna move to UK.

Payman Langroudi: I was just here for a bit. [00:12:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, my plan was to be here for a year. But then [00:12:25] Mantas, my husband, he got way too comfortable. He got [00:12:30] way too comfortable. The thing was that, well, the idea was basically [00:12:35] that he was approached at LinkedIn. Someone offered him a job. Um, [00:12:40] and he said, I’m gonna apply. And before that, in Lithuania, we were working [00:12:45] both of us 8 to 8 every day. And sometimes I would come in on Saturdays because [00:12:50] somebody wanted something. And I’m, I’m a people pleaser. So I like to for [00:12:55] everybody to feel comfortable around me. So this is what it is. And I’m like, okay, I will [00:13:00] come in on Saturday. But then you see that 20 like that 8 [00:13:05] to 8, 12 hours a day doesn’t really work that well. And then he [00:13:10] got, you know, he was working at UI at that point. Yeah. [00:13:15] So they were working, I don’t know, these people don’t understand the holidays.

Payman Langroudi: Anything [00:13:20] consultant.

Agne Malisauskiene: Was.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, he was a tax.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. They basically say here’s a [00:13:25] phone answer it any time day or night.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was crazy. Um, [00:13:30] we would get back home around nine ish 9 p.m. or so. [00:13:35] And then so he got a message on LinkedIn. He applied and suddenly [00:13:40] he got a job and he said, what do we do in London? You [00:13:45] mean it was Brighton? Brighton. And I was started. I started [00:13:50] to cry. I said, I don’t want to be a chicken factory girl. I’m a dentist. Because it [00:13:55] looked like all of Lithuania’s who were moving. That was a long time ago. When the [00:14:00] borders open, right. They would go either to strawberry farms or chicken factory. [00:14:05] That was like it was a major joke. And I was like, I expected to go to Spain for a year [00:14:10] or something like that. But then I told him that if I can get a job really [00:14:15] fast, like in a month or so, we can move. I got a job [00:14:20] in three days. Wow, that was super fast. And and then we moved there. I [00:14:25] came a month later, um, because I had to fix [00:14:30] all the documents and everything else. I came a month later and we had a completely [00:14:35] different life. Um.

Payman Langroudi: What was your first impression of UK dentistry [00:14:40] compared to what you were used to?

Agne Malisauskiene: First and foremost, very short working hours. I [00:14:45] would work from 930 to 5 p.m. with one hour lunch break. We didn’t know [00:14:50] what to do with our time. We signed up at the library. We were reading books. [00:14:55] We were walking by the by the sea. We were working by the water.

Payman Langroudi: We would work on the practice. Was it a [00:15:00] mixed or a.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was completely private.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, I could not do NHS. It takes [00:15:05] like a year to get.

Payman Langroudi: Oh the number.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. So just it just too long. [00:15:10] Right. So it was completely private. Um I was on a salary, not on [00:15:15] the percentage. Later on I, I was told that the salary was very [00:15:20] low, but honestly, it was, it was, [00:15:25] I don’t know. Um the problem I had very nice clinic. I [00:15:30] had my own room nobody like to share it with, and everything [00:15:35] was super clean, sterile. That I was not used to that kind of [00:15:40] a thing. So when the Covid hit in Lithuania, I was like, now it’s normal, now it’s normal, now everything [00:15:45] is clean, now it’s normal. I don’t like you filthy people. But, um, [00:15:50] so it was a lot different. Um, it was an implant clinic. So everything was [00:15:55] oriented about the implants. I came there to do only interiors. And [00:16:00] once I came, I was told three times you watch um implant placement [00:16:05] three times. And the fourth time you’re doing it yourself. And I was like implant no. And [00:16:10] they’re like, no, no, no, that’s easy. But I ended up not doing one implant ever. [00:16:15] I did do porcelain. I did endo, which I was not doing at home [00:16:20] at that moment, but it was easy and dose in UK because in Lithuania everything was calcified. [00:16:25] Like you would be like the third person going into that tooth, there is always the first [00:16:30] one.

Payman Langroudi: And what about patient mindset? Oh dear. What’s [00:16:35] the biggest difference?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m not very sensitive person. Right. So the thing is that my [00:16:40] patients will tell you that I’m very compassionate, but only because [00:16:45] they’re Lithuanian. So they’re kind of used to being like a very, um, [00:16:50] straightforward approach. Right. I’m very direct. And, um, you know, [00:16:55] if you need, uh, what if someone comes to me like a person, right? Not a patient, like a person [00:17:00] and they’re complaining about something. So if you want solutions, [00:17:05] you come to me. But if you need a shoulder to cry on, it’s probably not. I’m not the person. [00:17:10] So I would be like, okay, we’re doing, um, panoramic X-ray and [00:17:15] we’re checking everything. And I’m like, okay, so Mrs. this and this I [00:17:20] see this is a cavity. This is a cavity. This is a cavity. This is that, this is this tooth is okay. This is that, [00:17:25] this is that. Oh, that’s neat. Root canal. This needs extraction. And then somebody’s crying and [00:17:30] I’m like, what what what what what what? So that was very [00:17:35] strange. And, um, I [00:17:40] had to get used to that. I got used to that pretty easily. So. So [00:17:45] apparently on the first visit you just get rapport. Yes, [00:17:50] basically. And then you just talk about fairy tales and, and, you [00:17:55] know, I don’t know, rainbows and butterflies and something else. And then you slowly get them into that mood, [00:18:00] you know, about talking about serious stuff, right? So I got used to that. [00:18:05] But then I was super popular amongst Italians, [00:18:10] French, Spanish, and somehow there was like a big group of Bulgarians that would come to me. [00:18:15] So I ended up being an ex-pat dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, funny.

Agne Malisauskiene: And they would [00:18:20] come to the American dentist. They would say, I want to see that American one. I was like, I’m not American. [00:18:25] I’m like, don’t worry.

Payman Langroudi: Did you speak English perfectly at that point?

Agne Malisauskiene: I went to high school [00:18:30] in the middle of cornfields in Indiana when I was 16 for a year in the military [00:18:35] academy.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Agne Malisauskiene: So I could speak not like it would [00:18:40] not be very Dental ish words, right? Yeah. Um, sometimes I still [00:18:45] have a hard time to express myself.

Payman Langroudi: So was your. What? Your dad was a military guy?

Agne Malisauskiene: No, [00:18:50] I was a smart kid. I got a scholarship in a very fancy school.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:18:55] I was alone by yourself. Boarding school? Yeah. For a year.

Payman Langroudi: What a formative.

Payman Langroudi: Thing to happen. [00:19:00] Like, did it form you that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it did.

Payman Langroudi: It must have.

Agne Malisauskiene: Right.

Agne Malisauskiene: I, um, it [00:19:05] changed me completely. Like it changed everything. What I see I [00:19:10] come from, you know, again, eastern northern Europe and I come [00:19:15] there and everything is different. It’s in the middle of cornfields. It’s a massive school. Think [00:19:20] about Harry Potter land, right? There was like kilometres and kilometres [00:19:25] of that school. And every single class happens in a different building. Everybody wears uniform [00:19:30] all the time. In a year there were like four days that you can [00:19:35] wear civil clothes that they called them.

Payman Langroudi: Whoa.

Agne Malisauskiene: And everything was counted. [00:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very un-American, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: Very inspections. Every day you stand there and then, you know, [00:19:45] for girls it was okay. For boys, it was proper left, left, left, [00:19:50] right, left. It’s like they were proper military, right. Um, for girls, it was calmer [00:19:55] kind of a thing. You still had to salute when you go to a certain place, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:20:00] you were in military uniform?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, no, no, it looked like a preppy kind of [00:20:05] a preppy school uniform. Boys were in military [00:20:10] uniforms all the time, like all of their things that whatever. Yeah, yeah, [00:20:15] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff. General.

Agne Malisauskiene: What it gave me, it’s crazy because [00:20:20] one of the main, um, every new student [00:20:25] doesn’t matter the grade they’re coming into. Um, they had to take this, um, [00:20:30] informational literacy class. Um, that was [00:20:35] the way they taught were to get the information, how to use library [00:20:40] that’s physical, how to use PubMed for example. Right. And we [00:20:45] all had to do thesis, write research papers and do like proper research. [00:20:50] And I was. So if the ninth grader comes in, they do this. [00:20:55] I was at the 11th grade. I would go with ninth graders or 10th graders, whoever come. We, [00:21:00] we formed that class. And then we were taught that. And another very [00:21:05] important class was called leadership. So you would have robotics [00:21:10] one day. And then, um, what they were telling us and the way [00:21:15] they were teaching us is how you can be a leader. And if [00:21:20] you don’t want to be a leader, everybody’s got a space in the team. So teamwork was [00:21:25] the idea that everybody would find their own path, their own space, and [00:21:30] everybody had to take some sort of a leadership in academics. Doesn’t matter how good they are. [00:21:35] They still had to take a leadership in academics. Academics would mean you can [00:21:40] tutor Jim, you can tutor anything else you can [00:21:45] tutor, or you can help others to find something in the library. You still had a job to do, per [00:21:50] se. Everybody had a job. And then because it was a boarding school, even the [00:21:55] kids who were not boarding full time, they would have to be. And they [00:22:00] had a room and a bed that they would stay a certain amount of time per [00:22:05] semester.

Payman Langroudi: To be part of it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because they had to be in there because in the dorm you also had [00:22:10] leadership positions. So it’s either dorm, prefect, hall, prefect, [00:22:15] someone who’s responsible for making sure that the trash is taken out [00:22:20] in the kitchen, is cleaned up, and then everybody had to have those [00:22:25] positions. And for me, that was very odd, very strange. But [00:22:30] then I came back home and I was like the one who would say hi to everybody [00:22:35] or say, oh, I really like your skirt. Oh, you look so nice.

Payman Langroudi: Normally happen in Lithuania. [00:22:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: And then everybody would look at me like, she is properly insane person. [00:22:45] And I think that contributed so much to who I am now.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:50] it’s so interesting, you know, because I’ve had people here who have [00:22:55] been soldiers, um, or sometimes, you know, dentists in, in the [00:23:00] military and who’ve gone on to do unbelievable things, [00:23:05] you know, using that discipline. Um, you know, following [00:23:10] instructions, a simple thing. Yeah. But you’re a teacher. Yeah. You have a class of 12 people. [00:23:15] Four of them definitely don’t follow instructions at all, and [00:23:20] four of them follow instructions really well, and then everyone else is in the middle. Yeah. And I have had [00:23:25] similar situations. There are certain individuals who just follow instructions. They do what they’re [00:23:30] taught. Yeah. And the military kind of makes you that person. Yeah. So I’ve [00:23:35] had I’ve had a guy here, um, Mike pesca and he’s, he’s like gone [00:23:40] from the military to opening a practice, selling it four [00:23:45] years later for ten times what he bought it for, then teaching other dentists and, [00:23:50] and he puts it all down to having the mindset of discipline and following instructions. [00:23:55] Then you get other types of soldiers who have been through war and [00:24:00] are damaged goods. Yeah. You know, they’ve got PTSD and they can’t relate [00:24:05] and work. And I was trying to find out from him, you know, how come one guy comes out and [00:24:10] uses uses it like that and another guy comes out and ends up homeless or, [00:24:15] or or whatever, you know, what’s the difference between those two people? But that’s [00:24:20] an aside. I want to get back to you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it’s a brain damaged again, I guess.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [00:24:25]

Agne Malisauskiene: Do you know about the brain scans that they would do? They did a test from [00:24:30] the troops that would come back from Afghanistan, for example.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: They would age in [00:24:35] one session that they go they go for like what, six months in one session?

Agne Malisauskiene: One day.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. One tour. [00:24:40] They would age minimum five years. Some would age like 30 years. [00:24:45]

Agne Malisauskiene: Wow.

Agne Malisauskiene: And that PTSD is insane. Like they hear something gets [00:24:50] bombs in their heads.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I guess it depends where they were stationed and all the [00:24:55] rest of them and still personal things.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I used to.

Payman Langroudi: Think it’s the odd soldier that that [00:25:00] happens to, but the way people describe it to me is the odd soldier that it doesn’t [00:25:05] happen to, you know, in those conditions, like living in that condition of constantly thinking [00:25:10] something is going to go wrong. And and like you say, explosions, helicopters. Um, I’ve got another [00:25:15] friend who used to teach on MSM. And every time a helicopter would go over, he would fall to the [00:25:20] ground, you know, like because of his experience.

Payman Langroudi: Here you go.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I want to know [00:25:25] about how did you even find out about this school and why were you this swotty kid? Like, why? [00:25:30] When do you remember not being top of your class?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve always been [00:25:35] that.

Payman Langroudi: Kid.

Agne Malisauskiene: My kid is as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:25:40] is there is there not a why there? So like, you know, like, you know, like some people are, there’s [00:25:45] sometimes there’s an event or there’s a situation, one person sort [00:25:50] of ends up jumping into their books.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [00:25:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, just a good girl. Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, it was, [00:26:00] um, you know, maybe it’s odd to say, but it [00:26:05] was not like I would never study before the exam past [00:26:10] 10 p.m., I had the saying that if you didn’t eat enough, you [00:26:15] don’t have what to look from. Right. So I would never study before the exam.

Payman Langroudi: Like if I [00:26:20] the night before, you mean?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, if I but not any night. I would go to sleep [00:26:25] at 10 p.m. and I would wake up at seven in the morning. And, um, [00:26:30] and I think that I would always say that with your fresh brain, you can think [00:26:35] better. For me, even now, dentistry is very logical. If you [00:26:40] actually, if I needed to memorise, this is why I was bad in history. There’s no [00:26:45] logic there. Well, now I think it is because you can follow the [00:26:50] circadian kind of, uh, things that happen, right? But, um, everything [00:26:55] in school is quite logical. If you use your brain, you can [00:27:00] find the answers to things. And I think I was using [00:27:05] that brain. So for me, I would rather have my brain working rather [00:27:10] than I didn’t sleep and I didn’t do something right. So sometimes I would do like this, [00:27:15] especially I remember the, uh, an anatomy exam in university. It [00:27:20] was like so hard. And I was like, please, please, please don’t. We would have to pick out the [00:27:25] the bone kind of names. And then we have to tell everything about the bone. I ended [00:27:30] up getting, um, a palm, all the bones. And I was like, I did [00:27:35] not read about this, but then because it’s Latin, you can [00:27:40] think about the bone, where it starts, where it ends, and you can figure out the name [00:27:45] because somebody had to name these things or tuberosities or something. Yeah, [00:27:50] they had to name it and they didn’t invent the names out of like anything. [00:27:55] It was made in perfect on purpose. So I got like my, I don’t know what B plus [00:28:00] without knowing anything, it just logic’s out of that.

Agne Malisauskiene: And coming back to the school. [00:28:05] It was not the school, it’s the program. It’s called the American Secondary Schools for International Students [00:28:10] and Teachers. It’s a big program. It’s just global, right? So they take [00:28:15] 10th graders or 15 year olds at that time, generally, depending on what [00:28:20] grade you are, I guess now. Um, and then you need, um, transcript from [00:28:25] school. Uh, you need to show that you’re doing extracurriculars. So that means [00:28:30] pictures and some notes. And then you need one English teacher recommendation and [00:28:35] two other teachers recommendations. And then you send that out. Um, and [00:28:40] then their English language exam, which is very easy. And [00:28:45] then, and then there is an interview. So we were 33 at [00:28:50] the interview, the final stages, the interview. So they, they kind of a check first, the grades [00:28:55] and everything else. References. Then they choose, they chose it. My year was 110 [00:29:00] I think for the English language exam and after the exam it was 33 [00:29:05] that went in for the interview. And um you don’t pick schools [00:29:10] so it’s it’s chosen for you. I think at that time it was like 500 schools in the [00:29:15] US. And then but the interviewers, because I know now how it [00:29:20] goes. So interviewers, what they do, they kind of mark and they have kind of a, they look at you [00:29:25] and they kind of have an idea that you would belong well, in that school. [00:29:30] How would they choose a military academy for me when, when my friend got, um, [00:29:35] she was not my friend at that time. We met there and my friend got all girls school. [00:29:40] That was a lot different than mine was.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: But, um, [00:29:45] but then you get chosen and then you wait for the like I got, [00:29:50] I got in the list. So I was there and then you get a month later [00:29:55] an email with the school when you cannot really say no anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Changed [00:30:00] your life in a way, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh it does. And now I’m quite active on the [00:30:05] on the on that program I do.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Agne Malisauskiene: Donate money. [00:30:10] I do.

Payman Langroudi: Believe.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I do feel like, you know, it helped me so much. And [00:30:15] I know the organisation, the charity, the fund that is involved in organising [00:30:20] that in Lithuania. So I do that through them. It’s super nice and [00:30:25] it’s nice. I think it’s this is the American thought as well. They [00:30:30] everybody had to do charity work in school as well. Everybody [00:30:35] had to be involved.

Payman Langroudi: In the.

Payman Langroudi: Charity sector in America is gigantic.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Gigantic. [00:30:40] Partly because the state doesn’t help.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s in a way that it does [00:30:45] more heavy lifting the charity sector in the US and people, people who [00:30:50] make it in the US tend to like do some form of [00:30:55] charity, whether it’s a religious thing or whether they just want to be famous [00:31:00] for being a philanthropist or whatever. As a as a country, it’s one of the [00:31:05] cornerstones. Whereas here there is charity, but there’s also a state. There’s a safety [00:31:10] net that, you know, you lose your job in America, you can fall right through the net. [00:31:15] You know, if you a couple of bad things can happen here and you could fall right through the net, the [00:31:20] health insurance.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is crazy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s it’s a country of winning and losing, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: You know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:31:25] tell me this. When did dentistry come into the mix? Did you have any family [00:31:30] members?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: Well, what did your parents do?

Agne Malisauskiene: My. [00:31:35] My parents both graduated from, um, university. [00:31:40] That is for teachers. So, um, my dad was supposed to be [00:31:45] a teacher of, I don’t know how you call it, but this like crafts, the wooden kind of thing. [00:31:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is where everybody went because they wanted to go to university. That was like [00:31:55] easy escape. You just get in. You don’t apply, you just get in. And my mom [00:32:00] was supposed to be a physics teacher, though she was. She always wanted to be a doctor. She [00:32:05] was smart enough to be a doctor, but she was from a small village out of, [00:32:10] um, five, six kids. Let’s just call them. And, um, [00:32:15] her older sister didn’t get into the pharmacy the first year, and [00:32:20] she was like, ashamed of that. So she didn’t want to see that. So she just went to be a physics [00:32:25] teacher because she knew she will get in easily. Um, and [00:32:30] my dad, so my mom was working at university of those teachers [00:32:35] again.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, she.

Payman Langroudi: Was working in.

Agne Malisauskiene: She was working.

Agne Malisauskiene: At the same university. Um, and [00:32:40] my dad was a driver for the pharmaceutical company. He still is.

Agne Malisauskiene: And, [00:32:45] you know, he was like.

Payman Langroudi: What they call what your dad learned is here, they call [00:32:50] it design and tech. Yeah, yeah. Um, interestingly, you know, he did a, a level [00:32:55] final exam in design and tech, as well as physics, maths and chemistry, [00:33:00] whatever the ones you need to get into dentistry. And he says that that design and tech thing [00:33:05] helped him much more or helps him much more every day than [00:33:10] physics, chemistry and maths. Um.

Agne Malisauskiene: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:33:15] of, you know, like just a lot of dentistry is engineering in a way, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: So [00:33:20] that’s a thing. Everybody says it’s an art. For me, it’s so far from art [00:33:25] because you’re not creating anything. You’re copying what you do. You’re just trying [00:33:30] to copy something, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And forms. Form follows. Function. Right. That’s it. [00:33:35] Really. When you first click that, I think for me, it was maybe eight years after I qualified [00:33:40] where it just clicked that why are these things, these shapes? Why [00:33:45] are they these shapes? There’s a reason, there’s a reason, there’s a reason. There’s weather. You know, there’s a contact [00:33:50] where food doesn’t get in or there’s a lip, you know, there’s the the space for your tongue. You know, [00:33:55] there’s all of it is for a reason or you’re, of course, the occlusion and the way things move over each other. And [00:34:00] it’s a very empowering idea. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. And I think of a.

Agne Malisauskiene: Dentistry [00:34:05] as engineering, but also as a craft. So it’s a craft. And, [00:34:10] and I guess if somebody asked me.

Payman Langroudi: Attention to detail is this is this what [00:34:15] you mean by craft?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, crafty, that means that you can do [00:34:20] small, tiny things with your hands, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And, uh, [00:34:25] and if somebody asked me, oh, do you think I should go to dental school? [00:34:30] I say, did you do any crafts as a kid? Meaning you would sit for hours and do small, [00:34:35] tiny things with your hands? I don’t know whether that’s plasticine, something like moulding something [00:34:40] with your hands or knitting or crochet for me was crochet. I would make [00:34:45] like crochet napkins to all the aunts, but I would not make one. I would [00:34:50] get a set for them, and it was so fast in that I did make myself [00:34:55] like pants and purses and things like that. So it’s very hard for [00:35:00] me to sell craft because I look at it. I’m like, I was eight, I could do that. [00:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so, so so why dentistry? Like because of that.

Agne Malisauskiene: But no. [00:35:10]

Payman Langroudi: How did it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Happen? My, um, my uncle’s wife was a dentist and [00:35:15] there was a dental chair, uh, probably super illegal thing. She [00:35:20] had a dental chair in the grandma’s wooden house where there was [00:35:25] no running water. I don’t just, I remember as a very small child [00:35:30] that she would have that dental chair. I don’t know why, but maybe it was just stored there. But [00:35:35] I remember that, uh, but we were not close to them. I just knew that she [00:35:40] was a dentist. That was pretty much it. And then, um, I was super scared of dentists. Like [00:35:45] my heart would like flutter. And when I had to get sealants, I told my mom I will do [00:35:50] it myself. She should wait downstairs. I never came in. I just went to the bathroom, sat there [00:35:55] for a little waited, and then I left and I said, it’s all done.

Payman Langroudi: Does that inform the [00:36:00] way you handle patients? Like nervous patients? Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I’m [00:36:05] I go through the jokes like if they say I’m scared and I [00:36:10] said, good, because I am not. It would be a problem that if I was [00:36:15] scared and then suddenly they’re like, changed their minds. I talk through [00:36:20] what I do and I say, there’s going to be a moment that you will fall asleep. And [00:36:25] they’re like, no, no, not me, not me. And I’m like, yes, there’s going to be a moment that you will fall asleep. That’s fine. [00:36:30] I will wake you up when I need to do the polishing because this will scare you, the sounds and everything [00:36:35] else. And um, so it’s quite fine. I did have patient [00:36:40] long, long time ago, after I graduated. The one that would [00:36:45] have her hands over her mouth. She was a kid. Um, it took me [00:36:50] five visits to get the hands off. Um, I was very young [00:36:55] and very determined, so I had to do this. And that kid. Oh, she [00:37:00] would go to me for forever to listen.

Payman Langroudi: People underestimate if [00:37:05] you’re good with nervous patients. People underestimate what a massive thing that is. Because, [00:37:10] you know, I don’t know about, uh, Lithuania, but here the studies that I [00:37:15] saw, half the population are scared, of course. So that means that means half the. And [00:37:20] then the great thing about scared patients is they talk to each other when they find one, [00:37:25] a gentle dentist, they talk to each other and it runs in families somehow. You [00:37:30] know, the scare stories about dentists runs. So the word of mouth is gigantic. [00:37:35]

Agne Malisauskiene: Just look at the parents.

Agne Malisauskiene: That they bring kids to the dentist and they say the dentist will [00:37:40] not do anything to you. Of course they will. Like why? It’s not gonna hurt. [00:37:45] They’re not gonna know. You don’t say that. You say yes, they’re gonna have to [00:37:50] do something, but they will tell you what they’re doing. It’s not something. It’s not the punishment that, you know, [00:37:55] parents would make this as a punishment, bringing their own kids to [00:38:00] a dentist appointment. Or this is what I realised. I’ve done that to my kid as well. [00:38:05] Not with the dentist that I said, do you want to go to the hospital? And I was like, no, you [00:38:10] should never do this because it’s not a bad place. So I was like, policemen are good people [00:38:15] who are trying to help. If you need help, you seek for one. That’s fine. It’s, [00:38:20] you know, a doctor is someone who’s trying to help you. Nobody’s trying to hurt you, you know? So [00:38:25] I think that’s just.

Agne Malisauskiene: A mindset.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of a big change in culturally in [00:38:30] Lithuania. I’m sure that when you were a kid going to the dentist [00:38:35] was I remember in Iran, right? The dentist would shout at the kid straight away.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh [00:38:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They would just to just to get compliance and they could be so scared. Um, and then you look at Lithuania [00:38:45] today where, I mean, I see the way you are with, with your kids, like in a totally different [00:38:50] situation.

Agne Malisauskiene: Paediatric dentists have like hats on their like, and then there’s cartoons [00:38:55] and things are going on. And my kids, they’re like the ones that are, they come [00:39:00] to me with a single tooth toothbrush and floss every [00:39:05] night. And I sit in the corridor and they lay back like [00:39:10] they’re like a patient and I floss, and I use this thing because they brush their teeth with the [00:39:15] toothbrush, which is nothing. Right? So then they come with single tooth toothbrush and floss. This [00:39:20] is my job. And, um, Manta says, my husband, he says, this is your [00:39:25] personal time with them.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, they’re a minute [00:39:30] of, uh, of, of mommy and kid time and they love it. It’s just so weird [00:39:35] because they do like the clean mouth. They do like the, I don’t know, going to a dentist for [00:39:40] them. It’s a cool.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing.

Payman Langroudi: I want to touch on two areas that I think are kind of related. Yeah, [00:39:45] you may disagree, but I want to get to. Okay. You can be, you can be a really hard working, studying [00:39:50] person. Yeah. But not have the ambition [00:39:55] side. Yeah. Like, I think I have plenty of friends top [00:40:00] of their class.

Agne Malisauskiene: I do two.

Payman Langroudi: Top, top of their class, but now like they’re [00:40:05] in an institution, you know, institutionalised.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Almost like [00:40:10] love school and almost love rules. But, you know, out there in the real world, [00:40:15] rules, people break rules. Yeah. And they’re almost like, can’t handle the fact that people break rules. So [00:40:20] they stay in universities and schools and institutions. So but you, [00:40:25] you’ve got this sort of ambition that you can’t ignore. I can’t ignore [00:40:30] when I think about, you know, your trajectory, the ambition is huge.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is.

Payman Langroudi: So I want [00:40:35] to know where that comes from. I want to know what it feels like to be that person, but also, [00:40:40] I think the reverse side of that coin is sacrifice.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [00:40:45] I don’t know. Well, first and foremost, about the ambition, um, [00:40:50] the idea for me was always, I [00:40:55] don’t play games that I cannot win. So if I play the game, I will do [00:41:00] everything competitive. I’m very competitive. Like I would go racing [00:41:05] in school. Um, running. Um, I [00:41:10] was probably not the fittest one, not the fastest one, but the adrenaline would go [00:41:15] up. Like I was the most determined and I would run the fastest [00:41:20] only because the adrenaline runs so high. I don’t [00:41:25] play poker. You know why? Because once, if I would learn how to.

Payman Langroudi: Play poker face.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, [00:41:30] it’s like I have, like, subtitles on my forehead. But then if I were to do that, [00:41:35] I would be into that, I’m sure.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see, yeah. [00:41:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: So for me, everything is a little bit of a game.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I love it. [00:41:45] And I love competition. Anything in anything and everything from [00:41:50] the childhood. And there is a thing, and this is probably [00:41:55] comes from the background, trying to prove yourself to anyone and everyone. [00:42:00] Like.

Payman Langroudi: Are you the kind of person? If I say you’ll never achieve that, then you’re gonna [00:42:05] 1,000% achieve it.

Agne Malisauskiene: So this is what happened with that channel.

Agne Malisauskiene: At the end of the day, [00:42:10] this is what happened with dentistry. Um, because when I was in the US, I [00:42:15] had this private scholarship to go to Stanford to study economics [00:42:20] and Russian language. Wow. I’m pretty sure I would be in Siberia running some cigarette [00:42:25] business right now, but because there would be in that school, it’s it’s college prep. They would [00:42:30] come. Certain people, let’s just call them that. And they pick and choose and they [00:42:35] give you interviews and then they say, we can pay you if you go reach this great [00:42:40] SATs, SATs because you need some threshold. Right. And I did the perfect [00:42:45] score of all these exams. I never understood how I don’t have to pay what everybody else [00:42:50] pays for the exams. I never paid for any of these exams, so probably [00:42:55] somebody paid for that. I don’t know how that goes. Now, thinking about the American.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:43:00] were training you to be a spy.

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m pretty sure. Like there was something about that. And [00:43:05] so that idea was out there, you know, they’re kind of like, [00:43:10] I can go to a very fancy school, right? There’s like a dream come true. And [00:43:15] then I went back home and I went to 12th year and [00:43:20] in Lithuania and the final exam preparation is final two years, the first [00:43:25] year, which is 11th grade. What you do, you need to read all the books [00:43:30] because Lithuanian language exam is the main exam. Right. And for that main exam, [00:43:35] we had to write an interpretation or an essay. But you need to have a background of those books [00:43:40] because they give you an expert excerpt. And then you have to write down. Right. And I didn’t read any [00:43:45] of those books. So Lithuanian language teacher who was new at the school, she said, when I came in [00:43:50] to 12th grade that I made them let me go in, even though I didn’t do [00:43:55] any chemistry in 11th grade at all, because it did not fit my fancy [00:44:00] schedule in the school. But, um, so that Lithuanian language teacher, she [00:44:05] said, you will not graduate because you didn’t read books and you don’t have time anymore. And [00:44:10] I said, okay. And she said, if you fail, you will not [00:44:15] get into university. And I said, what is the hardest to get into? And she said, [00:44:20] dentistry. And I said, watch me. I got 100%. We get graded by the curve. [00:44:25] I got 100% from Lithuanian exam. I went in and I told her.

Payman Langroudi: So dentistry is the hardest thing to get into. Or [00:44:30] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was. Well, maybe.

Agne Malisauskiene: It still is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s become that way now when I when [00:44:35] I qualified, it wasn’t. But it’s become that way here. It’s much harder than medicine to get. Not much harder. It’s [00:44:40] harder than medicine.

Agne Malisauskiene: To get it.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s usually when, when somebody in medicine we say, you didn’t get into [00:44:45] dentistry.

Agne Malisauskiene: In my day, my day.

Payman Langroudi: Was the exact opposite. I’d say maybe half my year, [00:44:50] a quarter of my year, were people who couldn’t get into medicine.

Payman Langroudi: Think about [00:44:55] it. Just five.

Payman Langroudi: Years compared to ten.

Payman Langroudi: Years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just five.

Agne Malisauskiene: Years compared [00:45:00] to ten.

Payman Langroudi: Years. How were you.

Payman Langroudi: As a as a dental student? Like which student were you? The hardest working one in the [00:45:05] room. That guy. The party. The party animal?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: Who were you?

Agne Malisauskiene: It [00:45:10] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: A small. It was 27 of us.

Agne Malisauskiene: In the year.

Agne Malisauskiene: That year. And [00:45:15] then we were divided into four women.

Payman Langroudi: Right. I noticed.

Agne Malisauskiene: Two boys.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:20] funny.

Agne Malisauskiene: We graduated with one. Uh, [00:45:25] whose dad was the head of the dental chamber.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:45:30] which which student were you? What kind of student were you? Did you find it easy?

Agne Malisauskiene: I mean, the practical [00:45:35] aspect. Things.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Were you were you were you?

Agne Malisauskiene: I was the one organising things. I [00:45:40] was good at school, so I was not. I was not memorising things. I was not aiming [00:45:45] for the perfect ace because I really hoped for that. Like life. I wanted [00:45:50] like a college life. Never had that Dental students don’t really have that. But I had [00:45:55] amazing classmates and we. That group of. When [00:46:00] they divided us into that was we could choose our group. So, um, [00:46:05] I was, I don’t know, I was the organiser of things and I was the organiser [00:46:10] of events because we would have those events, right? The christenings and whatever things they [00:46:15] do that in universities. So I was organiser of things. Um I was the one [00:46:20] who was doing good, but we were the group that we would get the most practical work because [00:46:25] our teachers, the whole group, so the teachers would trust us and we would [00:46:30] get patients from residents. So we had a lot of hands on. We didn’t have to help each other work. So [00:46:35] we every, you know, the fifth year, for example, it was six hour hands [00:46:40] on work on patients every day. And, um, so [00:46:45] we get to do a lot of that.

Payman Langroudi: So my question about ambition [00:46:50] and the other side of it being sacrifice. Do you not feel like you’ve sacrificed anything in this journey? [00:46:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a.

Agne Malisauskiene: Priority. You have, you have. If somebody says, I sacrifice something [00:47:00] this, this and that, you’re trying to put the blame on somebody [00:47:05] else or on something.

Payman Langroudi: So I see how hard you guys work. Yeah, I was [00:47:10] there that weekend. You had another course going on. Um, you know, multiple hours. [00:47:15] Um, the sacrifice in that, you know.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is there is the kids.

Payman Langroudi: The kids [00:47:20] number one. I mean, it doesn’t have to be the kids. I know as a mother, you always have to be sort of programmed [00:47:25] to feel guilty about how little time you spend.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like men.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t have that.

Payman Langroudi: Guilt.

Agne Malisauskiene: My little one, [00:47:30] he translates very well. He was like, mommy, no, please don’t go. Don’t go anywhere. Can I go into your suitcase? [00:47:35]

Payman Langroudi: But but but so you accept sacrifice as.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, like a norm. [00:47:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, the interesting thing about it is I think about when doing [00:47:45] a product launch, you know, it things get so hairy, like this ministry of [00:47:50] sound thing that’s coming up now. Things, things get so much, by the way, you’re lecturing, amazing [00:47:55] things get so busy that even silly things. I mean, I missed my brother’s [00:48:00] birthday because I literally couldn’t, you know, I had to do whatever I had to do. Um, [00:48:05] as a business owner, you end up doing that. And then when you layer [00:48:10] in travel on top of that and you just got off a plane, [00:48:15] right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Even a short flight to, to Vilnius or from Vilnius to London is tiring. [00:48:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tiring, you know, sitting around the airport, the dehydration. Though, and [00:48:25] so did the driver. The source of the flame driving you? [00:48:30] Is it like something to do with. You want to live up to your potential? Is [00:48:35] it a financial thing?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’m pretty.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sure I’m still trying to prove everybody. [00:48:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Wrong. Really?

Agne Malisauskiene: Really it. It is like [00:48:45] that. Um. Yesterday my friend, um, sent me this reel on Instagram [00:48:50] and on the reel they’re talking to the female. The first female [00:48:55] to the astronauts. Now, who are going on to the moon, right. So [00:49:00] there’s an interview and they’re like, so if you can say just before your flight something, [00:49:05] uh, what would you say? And she said, mom, I’m [00:49:10] a good am I good enough now?

Agne Malisauskiene: And I was like, that’s [00:49:15] the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: That’s the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Are you good enough? And you know, [00:49:20] I grew up in the you know, my husband always says that you have to understand the environment. [00:49:25] I’m like, yeah, but no, I grew up in that environment [00:49:30] that, you know, in Soviet times, at least at that time, the [00:49:35] kids were happening. Nobody knew how they were happening, but everybody had [00:49:40] kids and they had the kids very young age. And the kids were burdened [00:49:45] at the same time as the if you have a kid, you get more food stamps, [00:49:50] so you can go get more food. Like you would not not get like, I think meat [00:49:55] stamps unless you had a child. So that was a lot different. [00:50:00] So for all of the kids that are around my age or older, [00:50:05] we were raised, um, differently. So we were raised as [00:50:10] nobody would come up and say, oh darling, I love you. The first time I heard [00:50:15] I Love You from my mom. I think that was to my kid. It was to my kid when he was around [00:50:20] two.

Agne Malisauskiene: I was like.

Agne Malisauskiene: What.

Agne Malisauskiene: Happened?

Payman Langroudi: Do you overcompensate with your own kids now? Like, tell them you love them too [00:50:25] many times.

Agne Malisauskiene: So.

Agne Malisauskiene: They are already numb in.

Agne Malisauskiene: That [00:50:30] kind of.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thing. But it’s very strange. You know, [00:50:35] it’s just it is what it is. That was different times, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:50:40] um.

Payman Langroudi: But in those sort of pre Berlin Wall days in the [00:50:45] Soviet times, what was the sort of community situation. Did you I [00:50:50] mean were, but most kids, both parents working and then the kids kind [00:50:55] of being looked after in a, in a, in a, in a situation together.

Agne Malisauskiene: I [00:51:00] was.

Agne Malisauskiene: I was raised like, so first and foremost, um, I was two at [00:51:05] the time we got our independence.

Agne Malisauskiene: And Berlin, etc. so I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Don’t really remember. [00:51:10] I know the stories. Um, I was raised in, uh, student [00:51:15] dormitory till I was nine, so there was like a student family dormitories [00:51:20] that there’s like a corridor, right? Everybody got a room that they. And [00:51:25] it was, they call it privatised. They still had to buy something like a room [00:51:30] in there. But I was raised in that all the parents were, let’s [00:51:35] just say when I was five, all the parents were around 25 [00:51:40] and all the kids were around five. So there’s a corridor party. [00:51:45] All the kids are in one room sleeping on the chairs or somewhere like that if [00:51:50] the parents are working. I was told that they would kind of exchange [00:51:55] between each other, but at a certain time I would be alone [00:52:00] for like an hour or so when I was a baby. Or it’s very interesting. I do not [00:52:05] remember those times because, um, my sister was born when I was five. And [00:52:10] that time I remember because mom was at home because it was completely different system. Then they could stay [00:52:15] with kids and so on. But you could go out outside, play [00:52:20] with your friends for like a half of the day.

Agne Malisauskiene: And no one would know anything.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then [00:52:25] they would just yell.

Agne Malisauskiene: Somebody or something.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Also a beautiful thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: That was fine.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was [00:52:30] safe somehow. Now it doesn’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Seem like that.

Payman Langroudi: So then your your kids.

Payman Langroudi: Now what happens when [00:52:35] you’re away? Nannies and all that.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, my mom mostly, um, [00:52:40] she’s with kids. She loves them. They’re more like caring. [00:52:45] They’re the ones that would hug and then they would sit on the lap because they’re like, they’re raised by us. [00:52:50] They’re cuties. And, and then and she likes to be [00:52:55] around them. So she’s mostly there. Then my mom as well, my sister, [00:53:00] we, we’ve.

Agne Malisauskiene: Left two kids.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sister. And then we have [00:53:05] a nanny who lives two houses away. So she would come in whenever we need her. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: So tell me a typical week, a typical week where you’re teaching abroad.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so.

Payman Langroudi: What are we.

Payman Langroudi: Talking? [00:53:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s always the same. Every week is the same for me.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: Well, except for sometimes I don’t [00:53:20] fly. So it’s Monday. Tuesday? Wednesday. I go to the clinic. Um. I drive the older one [00:53:25] to school. I go to the clinic. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it your own?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: No. [00:53:30]

Payman Langroudi: Your associate.

Agne Malisauskiene: Rent? No, I rent a room.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you rent a room?

Agne Malisauskiene: I rent a room. It’s easier.

Payman Langroudi: Is that with [00:53:35] us?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mindaugas has has his own.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: He didn’t want me there. [00:53:40] He said we spend too much time together. He said we probably like. We [00:53:45] would not be friends anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I said no. He’s like, what if the autoclave breaks?

Agne Malisauskiene: And [00:53:50] I’m like, no.

Payman Langroudi: So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday you’re working. What? Long hours?

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: I work nine [00:53:55] to 3 to 4, something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And then and the kind and the patients [00:54:00] are all what. Referred.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. Or dentists.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Really.

Agne Malisauskiene: Half [00:54:05] of my patients are dentists.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re basically doing anterior direct on everyone.

Agne Malisauskiene: That’s the only thing I do. I have [00:54:10] a hygienist, um, and an assistant. So hygienist is the one who does [00:54:15] hygienes whitening and stuff like that. And I have an assistant who runs the whole [00:54:20] operation.

Payman Langroudi: And the referral base are all these people who’ve come to your courses basically.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [00:54:25] so they’re either. No not really. It’s um, people who come to my courses, I encourage [00:54:30] them to do and practice themselves. I get patients from orthodontists [00:54:35] mainly.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, okay. Post author.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: So post ortho most of the time. [00:54:40] And then the and I would like handle the patient and he would do the posteriors. I would do [00:54:45] the interior, something like that. Um so.

Agne Malisauskiene: So that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Monday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Tuesday, Wednesday, [00:54:50] uh, on Tuesdays after work, I go to work out. On [00:54:55] Wednesdays I go to play paddle.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Something I suck at, but I’m trying [00:55:00] to get better.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know?

Payman Langroudi: What time do you go to bed? What time do you wake up?

Agne Malisauskiene: We go to bed [00:55:05] around midnight and we wake up 650. But [00:55:10] the thing is that it’s been eight years, eight and a half years since [00:55:15] I have slept through the night. Like for the past eight years, I think I’ve slept through the night [00:55:20] maybe 20 times.

Payman Langroudi: Why?

Agne Malisauskiene: Because they wake up [00:55:25] these boys. They either come in first up till the age of like [00:55:30] four. The older one, up to the age of four, he would scream, Mama! Mama! [00:55:35] Like 2 or 3 times a night, right? So wake up, walk to his room. Go to the [00:55:40] room.

Payman Langroudi: You forget. You forget all of this as you get. As kids get older, you forget.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then [00:55:45] we got a baby.

Payman Langroudi: So that was that.

Agne Malisauskiene: He still. He’s four and a half. [00:55:50]

Payman Langroudi: He still.

Payman Langroudi: So he’s still in that phase?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t know if there are nights that nothing [00:55:55] would happen. And then the older one started coming into the room, into the bed. And I [00:56:00] don’t remember what it feels.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like to sleep.

Agne Malisauskiene: And even if they’re not there, I would wake [00:56:05] up and be like.

Payman Langroudi: Alert. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Especially in the hotels. I don’t sleep well. [00:56:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s difficult. So so that’s Monday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thursday. So [00:56:15] I either fly or I have a course at home.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:56:20] let’s imagine it’s Copenhagen for the sake of the argument. You you don’t work at [00:56:25] all on a Thursday.

Agne Malisauskiene: No, never.

Agne Malisauskiene: You don’t rent a room. I rent a room Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. [00:56:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah. So?

Payman Langroudi: So you get to Copenhagen and then you’re teaching Friday, Saturday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Friday.

Agne Malisauskiene: Saturday. Copenhagen [00:56:35] is a place I like because on Saturday I can go back home [00:56:40] after the course.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s close enough and all.

Agne Malisauskiene: That.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a flight. It used [00:56:45] to be 920, now it’s 1055. But then I can be home at two in the morning [00:56:50] or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go with you on these trips. No, no, he’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: He.

Agne Malisauskiene: Comes he comes to some [00:56:55] places that he wants to go to. Sometimes we take kids as well. So [00:57:00] um, so then I can spend with them Sundays at home. [00:57:05] There are places that I cannot fly home. So sometimes I’m home, like Sunday [00:57:10] afternoon, and then it’s Monday again. And on the days that I don’t fly [00:57:15] anywhere, which we try to be this, we want this to be that. [00:57:20] I would fly once a month.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: Now I fly 2 or 3 times and we [00:57:25] always plan on slowing down, but we’ll see.

Payman Langroudi: It’s when it’s two weekends in a row, isn’t it? That’s [00:57:30] when it hurts the most.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. It’s gonna happen like that now.

Payman Langroudi: Victim [00:57:35] of your own success, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s going to be three weekends [00:57:40] in a row now.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it is.

Payman Langroudi: Your own course. It’s the one and the two, and the three is [00:57:45] what you’re teaching when you go to these places.

Agne Malisauskiene: The one and the two. Yeah, the one and the two. I go and [00:57:50] I teach that, and on top of it, because we make a schedule for hands on quite [00:57:55] in advance, right? So we have that quite in advance. We have these spots that [00:58:00] is going to be Paris. It’s going to be March. Um there’s going to be something else. It’s going to be [00:58:05] I don’t know, Barcelona is October, so we have these places. Then we [00:58:10] schedule that quite in advance. But then there’s going to be situations or invites [00:58:15] or things that I’m going to do in between of that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like some massive [00:58:20] event in America, like you were saying.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Or a minimalist, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: So [00:58:25] these get right in between. And [00:58:30] then if I don’t have any abroad courses, then it would be Thursday [00:58:35] only or Thursday, Friday hands on at home. So then I would have a weekend off.

Payman Langroudi: What about the setup for [00:58:40] instance. You’ve got this event tomorrow.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. We’re bringing up most of it.

Payman Langroudi: The drills.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [00:58:45] no. So, um, if the event in Lithuania, we have um [00:58:50] a total of I think 40 micro motors and, and, and [00:58:55] hand pieces and things like that. Um, in these places. [00:59:00] Micromotors. Um, handpieces curing [00:59:05] units come from the sponsors, so they would bring something [00:59:10] um in there. What we bring I break instrument kits. I bring, [00:59:15] uh, I don’t know, phantom heads.

Payman Langroudi: Are you.

Payman Langroudi: Bring phantom.

Payman Langroudi: Heads.

Agne Malisauskiene: I bring I have travel, [00:59:20] travel, phantom heads. Uh, so I have a travel phantom heads. I have so phantom [00:59:25] heads models. It’s it’s 40 kilos of stuff always travelling. [00:59:30]

Payman Langroudi: So where is that stuff that you send that ahead of time?

Payman Langroudi: Did you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Not hear? You can’t listen [00:59:35] here easily if it’s in the suitcases too.

Payman Langroudi: It’s in the suitcases. Everything [00:59:40] you need is in those suitcases.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Packed. And if uh, if that’s. [00:59:45]

Payman Langroudi: And.

Payman Langroudi: You’re going to set up tomorrow morning. Is that the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Plan? No.

Agne Malisauskiene: In the evening.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: We’re alive. Well, at least we try [00:59:50] to get the place.

Payman Langroudi: And you do it yourself.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, yeah. So now I have. I [00:59:55] learned from you. Now I have help. Uh, Michela Jarosova. [01:00:00] She’s from Czech Republic. We met on Instagram. [01:00:05] Then we met live. Um, she says that we met through Didier.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. [01:00:10] And, um. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: So she comes to some of these to help out.

Agne Malisauskiene: She comes to help [01:00:15] out. She teaches as well. Um, we have together two articles [01:00:20] coming out like now in the International Journal of Aesthetic Dentistry. [01:00:25] Um, she’s a good help and [01:00:30] um, it’s nice. It’s, it’s good to have her.

Payman Langroudi: So then, I mean, I know how tiring [01:00:35] it is. I’m not even the teacher on these courses, but so you set [01:00:40] up next day, now 830 in the morning, people are coming. You teach all day.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [01:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: Do you always do a social.

Agne Malisauskiene: A little bit of. Yes.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s a good [01:00:50] idea.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s nicer because then.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody’s more outside.

Payman Langroudi: Of the classroom.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. And then they’re.

Agne Malisauskiene: More loose the next [01:00:55] day.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because the next day is usually harder.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And so [01:01:00] they’re more loose. It’s more of a like I call this a workshop environment. [01:01:05] I make them walk around meaning that, um, if they need any extra [01:01:10] stuff, I make them stand up, go take it and go back because otherwise they get frozen [01:01:15] and, and you know, in place and in the shrimp position or something like that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:01:20] so then at the end of the two days, you’re destroyed, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, [01:01:25] I don’t know.

Agne Malisauskiene: I think I’m, I’m feeding on their energy.

Agne Malisauskiene: Not destroyed. [01:01:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, what they’re saying is like less energy. They have more energy. I have I [01:01:35] become more loud.

Payman Langroudi: See, that’s the adrenaline again.

Agne Malisauskiene: But I remember [01:01:40] there was a thing that was, um. I was in Copenhagen at the airport after [01:01:45] the after those two days, I come back and I sit there and wait. [01:01:50] And it’s like that silence, you know, when the, the, the, the cortisol goes up [01:01:55] and then everything drops the dopamine dips. And I was just [01:02:00] sitting there and I needed like, you need that dopamine back somehow. And [01:02:05] I’m like, oh, there’s Bang Olufsen, let me go in and I bought a speaker. So, so then my [01:02:10] husband was like, oh, this is why they have these shops because people are tired after. And then [01:02:15] they’re just going to need that. But it is like that. It’s very, um, kind [01:02:20] of a when it’s not, I’m not tired with people when I’m left alone. [01:02:25] This is that the moment that you’re like, oh.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh. [01:02:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: So that’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: The strangest.

Agne Malisauskiene: One.

Payman Langroudi: And I kind of want to get insight into [01:02:35] by emulation. I mean, I was there at the beginning with the not, [01:02:40] not that I had anything to do with it, but I was watching, I was, I was watching Panos and, and [01:02:45] the guys right at the beginning. Gianfranco, um, how did [01:02:50] you end up getting involved with them?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:02:55] actually, for someone who doesn’t know, just just quickly sum up what what is bio emulation?

Agne Malisauskiene: Bio Malaysian [01:03:00] is the group of dentists dedicated to minimally invasive biomimetic [01:03:05] dentistry. Um.

Payman Langroudi: The kind of very highest end.

Agne Malisauskiene: They [01:03:10] push, they push.

Agne Malisauskiene: The boundaries, push.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is the idea. And, [01:03:15] um, I think that was one event that we were not organising. That was the main [01:03:20] thing. Um, and druskininkai we have this like largest event of [01:03:25] the dental chamber and Javier was there and Mindaugas was there and we [01:03:30] were at the party, I think, and Javi said, would you accept [01:03:35] this if we were to invite you?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s nice out of the blue.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. And then [01:03:40] I said yes. And I said, let me think about it. I was like, what? What [01:03:45] man? Uh, but he does that. He’s more like, I’m irrational. I’m [01:03:50] like, this is the moment. It’s okay. And he’s like, let me, let me see. And [01:03:55] I was like, what are you saying? And then by Malaysia, in London, I [01:04:00] came and.

Agne Malisauskiene: It was fun.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I think that do you remember? [01:04:05] You don’t. Oh my God. So we’re standing there talking. Panos goes by. [01:04:10] He says something. And you say, have you met Agnes? [01:04:15] And he says, yes. And he says something like, oh, you’re [01:04:20] doing a lot of stuff in Scandinavia. I follow you, I see. And you’re like, just [01:04:25] put a badge on her. And he’s.

Agne Malisauskiene: Like.

Agne Malisauskiene: We’ll see tomorrow. And he walks [01:04:30] back and I was like, and you were like, just chatting. And I was like, what [01:04:35] does it mean?

Agne Malisauskiene: We’ll see tomorrow.

Payman Langroudi: I like there’s something about him, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then this is what they [01:04:40] then this is what they did during the break. They said, and then they invited on the stage. It was like Oscars. [01:04:45] I was like, because they didn’t tell you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, it was.

Payman Langroudi: A.

Payman Langroudi: Surprise.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. They didn’t tell me. I didn’t know that. [01:04:50]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it was a surprise.

Payman Langroudi: I love you know what I love about Malaysian events? [01:04:55] That audio visual.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. I mean, you’ve been you’ve been to so many events. Now where’s [01:05:00] the best place that you’ve seen?

Agne Malisauskiene: It is. It’s everywhere where heavier is.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. [01:05:05] I guess because.

Agne Malisauskiene: Javier is um, you know, he’s computer graphic artist. Yes. And [01:05:10] he’s one of the best. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Agne Malisauskiene: And what he does, it’s. Now [01:05:15] did you see how he does the lecture with the 3D glasses now. So you can have a [01:05:20] lecture of his. You need the proper audio visual for that. Right. But he they distribute [01:05:25] distribute um 3D glasses and you can see the animations of the dentinal [01:05:30] tubules already.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful isn’t it. Once it’s in 3D.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine Javier.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is [01:05:35] incredible. Everything is so authentic. He’s not the one who would go and [01:05:40] steal other stuff. He gets copied quite a bit. But you know, it’s [01:05:45] so flattering. I don’t know it just because he’s so good Yes. What he does, [01:05:50] he’s very passionate and he’s like, he’s very geeky kind of a person. And you just ask [01:05:55] him. And then Pandora’s box opens.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a commitment as well? Do you have to do anything? [01:06:00]

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Payman Langroudi: That’s good.

Agne Malisauskiene: Just give you a badge.

Payman Langroudi: Just a brotherhood. Sisterhood.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:06:05] remember when it was just men back in the day.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s still quite predominantly [01:06:10] men.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think that is? Like, I was looking at the speakers for the minimalist [01:06:15] at Ministry of Sound. Um, and I didn’t [01:06:20] do it on purpose. I didn’t do it on purpose at all. I didn’t I didn’t think men, women anything. Yeah. But [01:06:25] it’s double it’s double the number of men than it is women.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s always.

Payman Langroudi: Like that. Why?

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [01:06:30] because of society still and everything. [01:06:35] The idea is just think about it. Right? So now when I’m the one leaving and going [01:06:40] somewhere and mantis is taking care of kids, do you know what everybody thinks? Including [01:06:45] my mom, His mom or.

Agne Malisauskiene: Friends.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody [01:06:50] are like, man, what’s going on? [01:06:55] You know, he’s the one who is man.

Payman Langroudi: This is amazing, man.

Payman Langroudi: Cooking and [01:07:00] keeping us nourished.

Agne Malisauskiene: And and he works. We go to sleep. He [01:07:05] still works.

Payman Langroudi: He’s still amazing, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: He is very dedicated. You know, if I didn’t [01:07:10] find him when I was 16.

Payman Langroudi: Was it 16 high school.

Agne Malisauskiene: I met. [01:07:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Him when.

Payman Langroudi: He came back.

Agne Malisauskiene: Just before I.

Payman Langroudi: Left. Oh, really?

Agne Malisauskiene: So I met him just before I left for [01:07:20] the US. Uh, he would have been, you know, somebody else’s catch.

Agne Malisauskiene: But. [01:07:25]

Payman Langroudi: Okay. I hear what you say about your.

Agne Malisauskiene: You know, it’s [01:07:30] just expected.

Payman Langroudi: But I think there’s there’s something else as well. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: That there’s also the lack [01:07:35] of ambition. Everybody waits to be inspired. Be an inspiration yourself. That’s [01:07:40] a thing from women.

Agne Malisauskiene: They’re very.

Payman Langroudi: But also lack of speaking up, you know, like, [01:07:45] like I think about it with with staff sometimes, you know, there are some staff who never, ever, ever asked [01:07:50] for a pay rise. Yeah. And then there’s others who always, always, always ask for a pay rise. Yeah. And guess [01:07:55] what.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t get.

Agne Malisauskiene: What you don’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Ask for. That’s the thing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but but women [01:08:00] don’t put themselves forward as much.

Agne Malisauskiene: As.

Agne Malisauskiene: They wait for an invitation.

Agne Malisauskiene: To do [01:08:05] something.

Agne Malisauskiene: They wait for an invitation. That’s the thing. This is. This is true. They wait for an invitation. Um, [01:08:10] nobody’s gonna invite you to anything. Um, if you want to. Do I get these [01:08:15] questions all the time? How can I do more anterior composites? Just go tell your boss [01:08:20] and your colleagues that you want to do anterior composites. They’re like, no, what will happen? What [01:08:25] happened when I did that? Do you know that was like, I don’t know, it was eight, eight years [01:08:30] ago that I came into the practice and I said, let’s have a meeting. We need a [01:08:35] team meeting and so on. And these were quite regular. So we had a team meeting and I said, [01:08:40] I decided that’s the only thing I’m going to do is going to be anterior composites. I will not do [01:08:45] anything else. And I expected this to be like, no. But [01:08:50] then my colleague, she was like, yes. Can I do only posterior composites? I don’t do [01:08:55] anything else. And then suddenly everything became so specialised.

Payman Langroudi: It’s actually a brilliant [01:09:00] way of running a practice.

Agne Malisauskiene: And that everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: Became specialised.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody got so excited.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:09:05] everybody doing.

Payman Langroudi: The stuff they love doing. There’s internal referral. It’s a beautiful thing really. [01:09:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: And then you’re doomed to get good because you’re doing the same thing over and over and over. Oh, because [01:09:15] you’re repeating yourself. You get to see patterns and everything [01:09:20] goes in patterns. Dentistry is very mathematical, very engineer like, [01:09:25] right? So you, if you take apart the computer the first time you, you’re going to put [01:09:30] it back, you’re gonna have like five things on the desk, right? You [01:09:35] didn’t know where to put that. If you’re going to do that the second time, you’re just [01:09:40] gonna get better and better and better.

Payman Langroudi: Something tells me, though, that you’re very, very strong on the pattern [01:09:45] recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Bone in your brain. There’s [01:09:50] some people are like that. Some people are strong on one thing. Some people are strong on another thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I always say that.

Agne Malisauskiene: In dentistry. [01:09:55]

Payman Langroudi: That talking to you like you’re really into this notion of pattern, pattern recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Agne Malisauskiene: It [01:10:00] is like this. I call this connect the dots.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is the idea that, you know, [01:10:05] I think that was Mindaugas idea actually. Connect the dots. This is his we were going to a course [01:10:10] in Denmark and we had to name it somehow. And I said [01:10:15] we need like a catchy phrase, right? We need a catchy phrase that will represent [01:10:20] the way we do dentistry. And we were like talking just like this, [01:10:25] this, this, this thing was going on. And he’s like, I think his kids were like painting [01:10:30] by the door thing. They’re drawing by the door thing. And he said, no, it’s connect the dots because this is what we [01:10:35] look at the tooth, we see what’s missing and we just add that on and we connect it. So this is [01:10:40] the thing now. It says every lecture of mine has the connect the dots thing. And it was [01:10:45] his idea actually. So now it’s connect the dots as patterns. Everything goes in patterns. Um [01:10:50] if you have a patient that’s always chipping, it’s, it’s not the compass, [01:10:55] it’s probably you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: You, you need to understand function [01:11:00] many more things, right? But then everything comes in patterns and um.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:11:05] was the unlock for you regarding, I mean, it’s a very different thing being a very good dentist [01:11:10] and being a very good teacher.

Agne Malisauskiene: It is completely.

Payman Langroudi: What does it unlock for you in the teaching space? [01:11:15] Because when I watched you teach, I mean, it was I, it was in Lithuania, but I could just [01:11:20] see your passion in the what, what was the moment or the, the, the kind of the [01:11:25] skill or the, I don’t know, understanding of what it is to be a good teacher, a [01:11:30] great teacher. What’s the difference in a great teacher and a good teacher? That’s that. There we go.

Agne Malisauskiene: You need to convey [01:11:35] the message so everybody understands meaning I always say [01:11:40] that, you know, any course is valuable. Any, any course that you [01:11:45] go on to is valuable as long as you’re valuable in that course. [01:11:50] If you stay put, if you listen, if you’re good, right? The [01:11:55] new information that you’re going to hear, maybe it’s going to be 5%, maybe 1%, [01:12:00] and you need to spend that time to find that information yourself, right? [01:12:05] If you come in and everything is new for me, for you, or like [01:12:10] 80% is new for you, either you’re not qualified to get to that course or somebody [01:12:15] is talking nonsense because there may be there, there are plenty of, um, you know, Dental [01:12:20] educators and educators who cannot do the work themselves. They [01:12:25] can be very good teachers at the same time, because they have this idea in their head, but somehow [01:12:30] doesn’t translate it into their hands, or maybe one thing or they’re just full [01:12:35] of shit.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there is that. But I think, you know, there’s an element of inspiration. [01:12:40] It’s a funny thing. Yeah. Because I think I think of teaching [01:12:45] dentistry anyway as breadth and depth.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [01:12:50] it’s a funny situation, you know, like I’m telling you at the minimalist, you can have 17 minutes [01:12:55] to talk. Right. There’s not much time. You can’t go very deep on it. But [01:13:00] but some people can inspire the audience to pay attention [01:13:05] and listen. And some people can’t. And some people are masters at it. [01:13:10] And some people are, to your point, some people are. That’s their absolute skill. Yeah. [01:13:15] And you know, what they say might be rubbish, but they’ve just they’re just showmen, you know. They know [01:13:20] how to, you know, command an audience.

Agne Malisauskiene: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Um but, but it’s [01:13:25] a, it’s a certain kind of skill where you have to mix depth, breadth, inspiration, [01:13:30] practicality, you know, inspiration, practicality on two different levels. You know, sometimes [01:13:35] you get to buy a Malaysian. You look at what the guy has done or what he’s saying. Anything that has nothing to do with what I’m going [01:13:40] to do on Monday morning. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Why not?

Payman Langroudi: I remember Gianfranco talking about this layer he was [01:13:45] putting in. That was the a d j layer.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh dear God.

Payman Langroudi: Like you had the dentyne. [01:13:50] You had the enamel. But there was this other layer of, of basically see through composite that he was putting. [01:13:55] That was the a DJI looked at it, I was like, come on, man.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [01:14:00] but this is true. They’re pushing the boundaries.

Payman Langroudi: That’s their role. But this is what I’m saying about in [01:14:05] teaching, you have to mix all of those. You have to inspire people. You have to be practical.

Agne Malisauskiene: You have to inspire and [01:14:10] be practical.

Agne Malisauskiene: For me, it’s empower.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. So you have to give them [01:14:15] tools in the ideas. And what I say the best thing is to teach [01:14:20] how to use their eyes so the brain would [01:14:25] comprehend what the hands have to do.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Agne Malisauskiene: And this is the hardest [01:14:30] thing, right? You can show them the most beautiful pictures you [01:14:35] can Photoshop to whatever you want. Copy paste, whatever thing.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:40] there’s plenty of that, by the way. Plenty of photoshopping.

Agne Malisauskiene: Going on.

Payman Langroudi: In our [01:14:45] world there, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s a lot of fake things, but, [01:14:50] you know. Uh, anyways, but what you need to [01:14:55] teach them is how to see that we’re like, [01:15:00] what I teach in my courses is where to look from direction [01:15:05] of you sometimes matters much more direction [01:15:10] of you because we’re used to our patients on our laps, right? If we’re very [01:15:15] ergonomic, what do we see? We see nothing. We don’t see something. We see opposite [01:15:20] view first and foremost, and then we don’t see the three dimensional [01:15:25] view of the tooth. We lose everything when the tooth dehydrates.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:15:30] we lose the all perception of volume. Then we have our loop lights and [01:15:35] then their orange filters, and then we lose all the possible depth. [01:15:40] So the volume control gets impossible unless I [01:15:45] show them what to look for and where, what side to look from. How, how [01:15:50] what I see. And then recently what I started. So I finished the Instagram post on the plane. [01:15:55] I’m quite efficient. So I try to, you know, spend time doing things. Um, [01:16:00] I started recording everything. I have a loop camera. [01:16:05] It’s not fantastic. It’s as good as it gets at this point. But I have a loop camera. I [01:16:10] record everything that means I will give them the actual view [01:16:15] that I’m seeing, right? Not random camera facing the facial view. [01:16:20]

Agne Malisauskiene: Very good point. It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Very good.

Agne Malisauskiene: Point, isn’t it?

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it’s very important.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is super.

Agne Malisauskiene: Important. So [01:16:25] everybody would understand what I see and why I see it? And then once I have [01:16:30] these shadows, right, the dense shadowing, they’re usually sitting next to me. And then [01:16:35] they kind of like cure and everything else. There’s also now a computer open [01:16:40] that they can see what I’m seeing through my loops. They have a little bit bigger view because [01:16:45] my loops are six and there’s like three and a half or something like that, but they still see the [01:16:50] idea of it, like what I’m seeing because from their perspective, [01:16:55] it’s also a different thing.

Payman Langroudi: You know, that thing where he takes the picture of [01:17:00] the contralateral, he flips.

Agne Malisauskiene: It. Yeah, yeah, I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Do that.

Agne Malisauskiene: As well.

Payman Langroudi: And the [01:17:05] flipping, I used to think, you know, come on, man, how difficult can it be? But it’s absolutely true. Yeah. That’s an [01:17:10] extra step your brain doesn’t have to do now. Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And then.

Agne Malisauskiene: You can focus on and I increase the. [01:17:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: The, I increase.

Agne Malisauskiene: The contrast.

Agne Malisauskiene: The chroma everything.

Agne Malisauskiene: And I can mimic that much better.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:20] And so it’s so interesting. It’s so interesting. The first time I saw his work, I thought he’s [01:17:25] a genius. Yeah. I called up the guys in America. I said, I found this child genius. It’s amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then [01:17:30] I know.

Agne Malisauskiene: The guy in America.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: But then. But [01:17:35] then when later on I found out that is what he was doing here. It [01:17:40] makes it like no one is a bloody genius.

Payman Langroudi: Dear God.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like you said, it’s repetition. [01:17:45] It’s pattern recognition.

Agne Malisauskiene: Dentistry is easy, right? [01:17:50]

Agne Malisauskiene: We we will still make mistakes, whatever we do. Right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: The [01:17:55] idea is dentistry is actually easy, if you really think about it. If you [01:18:00] put the brain into it, dentistry is easy. It’s we’re copying something. And [01:18:05] if we make our life easier, not harder, we’re gonna get there faster. [01:18:10]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: And it’s just that that’s the thing, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: You know what annoys me sometimes? [01:18:15] Yeah. It’s the culture of hacking. Like [01:18:20] cutting, cutting corners.

Agne Malisauskiene: All the great inventions Are here [01:18:25] only because someone was too lazy to do a difficult job.

Payman Langroudi: No, but it pisses me off a little bit. [01:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: Pisses me off that it’s almost a culture of amongst dentists, of how do [01:18:35] I miss steps? You know, they want to do things quicker and they want to learn [01:18:40] hacks. By the way, hacks are great. It’s a it’s a great thing to have a hack. But sometimes [01:18:45] and I have people sit in front of me, absolute experts in their field like you are. Yeah. Sometimes [01:18:50] the key to being an expert is just not hacking, but doing the goddamn steps, [01:18:55] doing every step correctly, you know, is what makes an [01:19:00] expert. You know.

Agne Malisauskiene: This is true, but, um, just give them [01:19:05] tools to do that. But tools, I mean, just maybe looking from different angle. Yeah, [01:19:10] yeah. Seeing from a different perspective, actually taking picture of your own work.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. [01:19:15] To see what you did.

Payman Langroudi: Learn the most.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh my God. Yes. The best investment you [01:19:20] can have is just buying a good camera and a good lens, obviously. [01:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Where did you learn photography?

Agne Malisauskiene: I did take like these online courses [01:19:30] of like pop a pop up I [01:19:35] did, and then everything else went through kind of a practice. I’m [01:19:40] still not really an expert because I know how to do my own photography [01:19:45] that, you know, somebody told me that I know how to show [01:19:50] what I’m showing, right? How to make a picture of something that [01:19:55] I want to show. So this is this, this is a thing. But then if you told me [01:20:00] to take a picture of a molar, I don’t know, I try I cannot work.

Agne Malisauskiene: With what you do. [01:20:05]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah. It’s just again, it’s practice.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I ask you [01:20:10] what’s the best lecture you’ve been to?

Agne Malisauskiene: Everybody [01:20:15] is very good. Obviously you have to attend every and every one. But then Didier [01:20:20] the second time. Because the first time. First time I was too [01:20:25] young and too cocky and too everything to actually pay attention. And [01:20:30] I did pay attention, I assume. But I was jet lagged like crazy because [01:20:35] I hacked him down. Well, my my friend traced him down. We went [01:20:40] to his, uh, three day course in Singapore.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it was much cheaper [01:20:45] than in Geneva.

Payman Langroudi: Including the flight was.

Agne Malisauskiene: Cheaper, including.

Agne Malisauskiene: The.

Agne Malisauskiene: Flight.

Agne Malisauskiene: And [01:20:50] hotels and food.

Agne Malisauskiene: And everything.

Payman Langroudi: What a hack.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because in the room, they didn’t have [01:20:55] the 16 people. They had 40 something.

Payman Langroudi: Uh.

Agne Malisauskiene: But [01:21:00] the first time I think I got quite a bit, but the second time [01:21:05] when I got her my home, I was sitting there, I was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my [01:21:10] God, oh my God, oh my God.

Agne Malisauskiene: And like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, repetition is huge, right? Repetition is huge. Even if it wasn’t [01:21:15] the same course. Like your mindset is different that the I still learn know that many smile makeover. I still [01:21:20] learn the. And I must have seen it a hundred times.

Agne Malisauskiene: But the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: Is that we all of us. Um, [01:21:25] when when the teachers, the educators, we add on something.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because [01:21:30] we, if we, if we.

Agne Malisauskiene: Actually practice dentistry, right?

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: If [01:21:35] we practice dentistry. And I stress that if we practice dentistry, then we have what to [01:21:40] bring to the table every single time. And this is the thing, if you did a course three years ago, [01:21:45] it might be smart. If you liked it, that means you’re gonna like it way more now.

Agne Malisauskiene: Mhm. [01:21:50]

Agne Malisauskiene: And, um, because the, your educator is way more experienced [01:21:55] because in those three years that you did something, they did many, many, [01:22:00] many more of that. Maybe they’ll learn something about different, I don’t know, instruments, something else, [01:22:05] anything, anything. Just the way they do things. Maybe they simplify certain [01:22:10] steps into something, not cutting corners, but like simplifying something. [01:22:15] Maybe you can instead of having, I don’t know. Do you remember when it was [01:22:20] like 20 layers of of the tooth? Do we really need that? [01:22:25] You know how hard that is. And volume control becomes a super mess. And [01:22:30] the negative space and the bubbles and everything else. It’s not the [01:22:35] time for that anymore, right?

Payman Langroudi: No. But at the time, it was revolutionary. I remember enamel [01:22:40] was the the stuff. Was that back.

Agne Malisauskiene: Then. [01:22:45] Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about what comes to mind if I ask you what is your [01:22:50] biggest clinical mistake?

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, dear. Uh, [01:22:55] you know, I don’t place implants, so my implants don’t break. I [01:23:00] don’t place implants into the nerve. I, I.

Agne Malisauskiene: It.

Payman Langroudi: Could be a management error. Like [01:23:05] a patient error.

Agne Malisauskiene: No.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, I just remembered. [01:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny when you ask this question, suddenly the silence happens [01:23:15] and then suddenly this.

Agne Malisauskiene: I still have the picture of that patient [01:23:20] when I talk about the evolution of my own dentistry. Because you need to humble yourself, [01:23:25] otherwise you don’t understand what’s going on. So that was years ago. I thought [01:23:30] that I’m doing great dentistry, right? And I started doing a lot of those composite [01:23:35] bondings. And I won this competition in Lithuania in 2017. I [01:23:40] won the competition that was life patient. And, uh, I want [01:23:45] it. And after that, a lot of patients get flooded, like flooded me and, and [01:23:50] had this patient with crooked teeth, two centrals. And, [01:23:55] um, she was getting ready for a wedding. She was very young, I would say 25 or something [01:24:00] like that. And she wanted me to straighten the teeth with composite, and [01:24:05] I needed to shave off a little bit of a tooth. I did that, I, and [01:24:10] I did, I shaved off, I don’t know, I cut it into dentine, of course, and I did [01:24:15] two four composite veneers or something like that. She came back for a recall [01:24:20] and I saw some brownish area underlining the, the the composite. [01:24:25] So because I was working all the time, so many like crazy hours, right? [01:24:30] I did forget and I didn’t have pictures.

Agne Malisauskiene: I did forget how much [01:24:35] did I shave off. So I was trying to remove that. And I see it’s still brownish brownish, brownish up [01:24:40] until the point that I exposed the pulp. Trust [01:24:45] me, I was all sweaty. I didn’t know what to do. Vital pulp therapy at the [01:24:50] time was not a thing. I had no clue. Um. I knew there was [01:24:55] MTA somewhere, but I was afraid to ask. So [01:25:00] I put some kind of a liner, which is the glass [01:25:05] ionomer and I covered that with some opaque composite. I did etch bond [01:25:10] and whatever. And I didn’t tell anything to the patient. I [01:25:15] could not sleep for three days. Maybe I didn’t tell anyone. I [01:25:20] called in the patient for a recall a week later. Two [01:25:25] weeks later. A month later. Um, before wedding. [01:25:30] I called her in. A year later. Two years later. Three years later. She [01:25:35] was young and healthy. It was perfectly fine. X-rays, [01:25:40] everything. It’s perfectly fine. But that was. [01:25:45] And then I promised myself. I will never, ever, ever [01:25:50] do this again.

Payman Langroudi: Which bit? Which bit won’t.

Payman Langroudi: You do [01:25:55] again?

Agne Malisauskiene: I would not cut the tooth up to the pulp.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:26:00] about the bit about not telling the patient?

Agne Malisauskiene: Ah.

Agne Malisauskiene: I [01:26:05] think it was better not to tell her, because if I told her, then [01:26:10] something would have happened. Because you know how they say maybe it’s gonna hurt, so you just wait [01:26:15] for it to hurt? Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s, I don’t know. Um, so I just promised [01:26:20] myself that I would never shave off the tooth for the matter of it looking [01:26:25] better.

Payman Langroudi: I love your openness on this subject. That’s excellent. Excellent.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because it is what it is, man. [01:26:30]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite resource book website podcast [01:26:35] I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my god. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: For you. Instagram page. [01:26:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Instagram obviously.

Agne Malisauskiene: Which page like what are the.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d [01:26:45] you go?

Agne Malisauskiene: I don’t know anything and everything. I don’t know. Um, probably [01:26:50] the, the idea is the best book ever written on anterior composites [01:26:55] is layers two.

Agne Malisauskiene: There’s two.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, and a salad. I always say, um, [01:27:00] the woman’s name, so it’s by the Anna salad and colleagues.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, [01:27:05] At because.

Agne Malisauskiene: I remember I was teaching this, [01:27:10] I had this, I’ve never read layers.

Payman Langroudi: I have layers, I’ve never looked at layers. [01:27:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Two, I have to.

Agne Malisauskiene: Take a take a look at one thing. And I thought I [01:27:20] invented something. So I said, bevel or not, bevel depends [01:27:25] on the line angles. If you cross the line angle, that means you’re on the buccal surface. If your [01:27:30] prep of class three right crosses the line angle, you need to bevel that. If [01:27:35] you don’t cross, you don’t need to bevel. Right? I thought this [01:27:40] is my idea. So I was teaching this for like six years up to the point that layers [01:27:45] two came out and I bought it, I pre-ordered it, I got the book and I was reading it and I was like, I [01:27:50] opened the page. And this literally, this is what’s written with the, with [01:27:55] the images on probably keynote like I did, they look very [01:28:00] alike. And I was like, oh, and then I took a picture and I sent it to Mindaugas [01:28:05] And I said, what? And he says, do you know what this means? [01:28:10] And I said, yes. Great minds think alike.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Agne Malisauskiene: Because I’m pretty.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sure [01:28:15] it’s supposed to be on.

Payman Langroudi: You’re saying in the in the proximal.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You no longer need to bevel.

Agne Malisauskiene: No [01:28:20] I don’t unless yeah. Sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes if you don’t, you end up. It’s [01:28:25] not it’s not as obvious. But you see this kind of weird shadow if you don’t.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:28:30] hear you, I hear you.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s interproximal. That’s usually quite fine, but you have to understand [01:28:35] the, the width of what you’re covering, [01:28:40] right? So, uh, what I would say they maybe you need a little bit more opacity [01:28:45] in the shadows. Gone.

Agne Malisauskiene: True. That’s true.

Agne Malisauskiene: The thing is, what you see is the enamel. Because [01:28:50] enamel is the evil. If you have dentine, it’s very easy. Right? This [01:28:55] is why composite veneer is easy, because this is the actual composite veneer where you have nothing, [01:29:00] right? You have healthy tooth.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: Porcelain veneer when you have all same [01:29:05] coloured aligned teeth is easy because this is the moment that you actually [01:29:10] have the blank canvas. Usually I don’t have blank canvas. What? I have a blank deep hole and [01:29:15] I need to work around that, right? So if you have a blank canvas, it’s [01:29:20] easy.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting how we’re not taught in I don’t know you about you, but I wasn’t [01:29:25] taught a single word in dental school about Opacus. No, I [01:29:30] mean, but it may be the most important thing in a composite.

Agne Malisauskiene: Opacity is.

Agne Malisauskiene: The [01:29:35] most.

Payman Langroudi: You know, pictures. I mean, we just composite there is there was there was nothing about opaque [01:29:40] composite, not opaque composite. You know, it’s, I think when I don’t know, I haven’t been a dentist for a long [01:29:45] time, but when I was a dentist, almost every single composite, anterior composite and opaque [01:29:50] was used somewhere, you know, like, yeah, why? Why were we taught? [01:29:55]

Agne Malisauskiene: I really don’t know how we, I don’t I.

Agne Malisauskiene: Really don’t remember. [01:30:00]

Agne Malisauskiene: How we were taught anterior composites, I don’t remember. I don’t remember doing [01:30:05] them at all in uni. Like nobody.

Agne Malisauskiene: Would.

Agne Malisauskiene: Count. They just cavities you had like [01:30:10] it’s usually posterior contact that you keep blues or I [01:30:15] don’t know, overhang or whatever thing. It’s just.

Agne Malisauskiene: Unfortunately. [01:30:20]

Payman Langroudi: We’ve come to the end of our time. I could talk, I could talk for so long with you. Um, but I [01:30:25] gotta be somewhere. So I’m going to end with the usual question, which is [01:30:30] a fantasy dinner party. Three guests.

Agne Malisauskiene: I’ve had.

Agne Malisauskiene: That.

Payman Langroudi: Dead [01:30:35] or alive.

Agne Malisauskiene: I had if we were talking about dentists, I’ve had that already.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you met your heroes. [01:30:40]

Agne Malisauskiene: Yes. I’m so happy. I’ve.

Agne Malisauskiene: Who was it?

Agne Malisauskiene: I’ve eaten with all of them. [01:30:45] Uh, Newton. Paul. Didier.

Agne Malisauskiene: Pascal.

Agne Malisauskiene: Uh, Pascal. No, I haven’t [01:30:50] eaten with that, man. How do I get to that? Oh, maybe.

Agne Malisauskiene: It’s gonna be that. [01:30:55] Yes.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah, to buy a Malaysian thing as well.

Agne Malisauskiene: Um, [01:31:00] what.

Payman Langroudi: About outside of dentistry? Like any three people.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay, so [01:31:05] that would be Steve Bartlett, the CEO guy.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like it.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Agne Malisauskiene: Much? Uh, [01:31:10] amazing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I have the idea.

Agne Malisauskiene: Listen to this.

Agne Malisauskiene: So, Steve Bartlett, the second would be. [01:31:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh.

Agne Malisauskiene: Okay. That would be, uh, I don’t remember the [01:31:20] name, but the, the owner, the of Nvidia.

Payman Langroudi: Nvidia.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh, [01:31:25] I saw this.

Agne Malisauskiene: I saw this reel when he was like, somebody was talking to him about, um, [01:31:30] when you work, you work like, do you have what’s the balance? He’s like, what, what [01:31:35] balance? What what what? He said, no, I work. If I don’t work, I think about [01:31:40] work. I was like, man, I’m buying your stocks.

Payman Langroudi: Have you seen that clip where he says, [01:31:45] um, if I knew what I know now at the beginning of Nvidia, [01:31:50] I definitely 100% wouldn’t do it.

Agne Malisauskiene: Oh really? That is going to work.

Payman Langroudi: Because it was that much [01:31:55] pain getting to. And you think the guy who’s made the world’s largest company is saying [01:32:00] you wouldn’t do it if he knew how much pain he went through? He’s such a wicked guy. I [01:32:05] like him a lot.

Agne Malisauskiene: Yeah.

Agne Malisauskiene: I bought Nvidia stocks and that’s the only in my portfolio that’s going up, not [01:32:10] down. So and the.

Agne Malisauskiene: Third.

Agne Malisauskiene: Person would be you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Me?

Agne Malisauskiene: You know.

Agne Malisauskiene: Why. [01:32:15]

Agne Malisauskiene: Because you would ask them questions and I can chill. You know that’s [01:32:20] the thing.

Agne Malisauskiene: I would just.

Agne Malisauskiene: Sit there and enjoy. You know, I could eat and enjoy and [01:32:25] you would ask them questions.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Thank you.

Agne Malisauskiene: Thank you for having me.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, [01:32:30] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank [01:32:35] you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what [01:32:40] our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out [01:32:45] of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:32:50] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget [01:32:55] our six star rating.

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that you know. The more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Dipesh Parmar. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] makeover.com for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:50] gives me great pleasure to welcome Cheyenne Patel onto the podcast. I don’t [00:00:55] know if I’m going to call this one of the, you know, future Dentists kind of series [00:01:00] or because shines a dental student, but a bit different to most dental [00:01:05] students. It’s the reason you’re here, my buddy.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if you’re having a slow day at the office and I [00:01:10] got the call, but I appreciate the invite.

Payman Langroudi: Payman fifth year of dental school [00:01:15] in Liverpool.

Shyun Patel: In Liverpool? That’s correct.

Payman Langroudi: And recently come off your BDS, a conference which [00:01:20] was unbelievable. Really, really massive, massive thing to have accomplished.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I really appreciate that. [00:01:25] A little bit more grey and probably taking a couple years off my life, but here we are.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:30] where did you grow up?

Shyun Patel: Grew up in a place just outside Birmingham called Hagley. Mhm. [00:01:35] A little town and went to Kezia School in Birmingham. I [00:01:40] think a lot of dental students have actually been to that school, so yeah. Um I [00:01:45] went to that school as well, so yeah, quite a small world, but. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:50] did you know Tony?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah, I was really, I was almost best friends with, um, his younger brother. [00:01:55] Oh really? So he and his younger brother have been to India together and Canada together and knew that. [00:02:00]

Payman Langroudi: So is he like a banker now?

Shyun Patel: Yes. He’s, uh, working at.

Payman Langroudi: Something [00:02:05] in.

Shyun Patel: Blackrock, I think. Yeah, something like that. So he’s doing really well.

Payman Langroudi: So were [00:02:10] you. Did you always know you were going to be a dentist, or when did you realise?

Shyun Patel: No. So it’s [00:02:15] a funny story. Growing up, I actually went to my GCSEs. [00:02:20] I chose German, which I turned out to be not not so good at because I was set on being an engineer. Um, [00:02:25] that was down to the fact that I love doing things in my hands. Pretty generic. And I ended up playing three instruments [00:02:30] growing up. So I thought, okay, um, engineering was, was the play for me as [00:02:35] I got older and especially going to, to quite a good school, you think you’re good at maths until you meet [00:02:40] someone that’s really, really, really good at maths. You know, the guys that introverted and can’t hold eye [00:02:45] contact but are exceptional at maths and physics. And I thought, I can’t compete with these guys. So [00:02:50] did my work experience, tried engineering and wasn’t [00:02:55] a conclusion I came to, but always been told, you know. I’ve known myself. I’m good in my hands. But I talk a little bit too [00:03:00] much. Married the two together and thought dentistry is a is a profession for me. [00:03:05] Played with the idea of medicine and just enjoyed the the autonomy aspect of [00:03:10] dentistry and the rest has kind of been been history. And yeah, so I’m loving, loving [00:03:15] the course. It’s gone gone by in a flash.

Payman Langroudi: What about the process of getting into dental school? Because my, my daughters [00:03:20] just said she wants to be a dentist.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And looking into it, it’s much more difficult than we went [00:03:25] in.

Shyun Patel: Year by year. It gets harder and harder. I don’t know if I want to go back if I get in. I was very fortunate that [00:03:30] I got all of my offers, so I got into King’s Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool. And [00:03:35] when people say you got into King’s, didn’t choose King’s. Everyone’s gobsmacked. But um, no, I’m, I’m [00:03:40] a avid Liverpool supporter, which is why I.

Payman Langroudi: Football.

Shyun Patel: Football. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s why you.

Shyun Patel: Went. That’s why I went to Liverpool. [00:03:45] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So people talk about King’s. But London [00:03:50] is not a good town for a student.

Shyun Patel: You went to Cardiff right. Yeah. How did you find that campus uni.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [00:03:55]

Shyun Patel: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. I went there by mistake. I mean, when you’re 17, [00:04:00] you think you know it. All right? Yeah. So I want to stay in London. I didn’t get my grades. And then Cardiff [00:04:05] said, yeah, you can come in. I missed it by one.

Shyun Patel: Very beautiful uni I’ve heard. Picturesque.

Payman Langroudi: Just that the Welsh [00:04:10] are amazing people, amazing people, fun, funny, family [00:04:15] orientated. Very very different to what?

Shyun Patel: Well, it’s what you’re saying about the Welsh people I find with the Irish. [00:04:20] But Scousers are almost not English. We say we’re Scouse, not English. Yeah, [00:04:25] yeah. And they’ve got their own community. They’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: An Irish sort of tinge to.

Shyun Patel: Them. Yeah. They’ve got North Wales and [00:04:30] they’ve got Irish and it’s a mix of cultures.

Payman Langroudi: People in Liverpool are amazing.

Shyun Patel: They’re funny, they’re kind, they’re welcoming. [00:04:35] I love Liverpool. Yeah. And um one thing for me I’ve realised that [00:04:40] we’re we’re very fortunate that people have different stress points. So I say my [00:04:45] my brother did geography at UCL and he had stress when he graduated and he was looking for a [00:04:50] job. Whereas for us, we walk into a job, but the stress comes during the ucat [00:04:55] doing the interviews, all those processes. So it was it was definitely difficult that in [00:05:00] a way. Now come to the end of my studies, to some extent, everything I’ve done [00:05:05] from primary school to secondary school has led up to this, this moment. [00:05:10] So from GCSEs and I didn’t actually do A-levels, I did something called International Baccalaureate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, my kids are doing [00:05:15] that.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So. Oh, I’m so sorry that they’re doing that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s they’re not doing that. They, they chose A-levels, [00:05:20] but their school does it.

Shyun Patel: Yes. It’s, um, an interesting, interesting [00:05:25] choice. But it was, it was something I wasn’t very confident of getting in. Um, [00:05:30] I applied and academia was never my strong point. But once I got an interview, [00:05:35] I’m quite comfortable in that environment. So I think it’s just understanding what they want, [00:05:40] how to convey yourself, portray yourself and, uh, fortunately got through the process. But like you said, year [00:05:45] by year, these kids are coming out like superstars. Um, but then there’s, there’s a mix because [00:05:50] you’ve got one side of the process is a lot harder. And the second side, if you look at the [00:05:55] new generation coming through, they say they’re a lot less social. So. So it’s hard [00:06:00] to marry those two up where you’ve got a harder process, but then you’ve got a society [00:06:05] that’s more and more glued to their phones and less social. And, you know, I said at the conference, we’re not in the [00:06:10] teeth business. We’re in. We’re in the people business for sure.

Payman Langroudi: For sure. And I think it’s an interesting question, [00:06:15] right? That is it that the the best students in a level [00:06:20] make the best students in dentistry and do they make [00:06:25] the best dentists compared to my time, then she wasn’t that hard [00:06:30] to get into. It really wasn’t. Yeah. A lot of the year were failed medics. Okay. Back [00:06:35] then. Um, and it just wasn’t. So you used to get pretty practical types of people [00:06:40] into dentistry, some of them good at good at communication and all that. And like you said, communication is [00:06:45] really.

Shyun Patel: The foundation of everything.

Payman Langroudi: The key skill in dentistry.

Shyun Patel: Understanding people is everything. [00:06:50] I think. I always say, um, someone could I try to explain to, to [00:06:55] a, to a patient, you could have someone come up to you that gives you a composite filling. [00:07:00] Let’s say it’s at the back and you can’t tell. And it’s a, a ten out of ten filling and someone else comes and gives you a [00:07:05] 7 or 8, seven out of ten dental filling. And if it’s functional, you’ll [00:07:10] know and I’ll know, but the patient will know. Yeah. But the patient, the guy that gave him [00:07:15] a, the patient, a seven out of ten filling, they go, how’s your holiday? How’s your family? You know, what have [00:07:20] you been up to? It’s more likely to, to be seen and be more popular and be more successful, quote [00:07:25] unquote, as a dentist than that one that’s done a fantastic job, knows all the morphology, but in [00:07:30] and out. And I think that is something that I feel that in my opinion, my generation and being [00:07:35] in dental school is something that’s not stressed upon as much. And I think something that was very integral to your generation [00:07:40] is people and, you know, psychology. And I think that’s I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, if I had to pick [00:07:45] between those two scenarios, you know, like a seven out of ten. Technically ten out of ten communication or [00:07:50] the opposite. I definitely go for the communication guy.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Because it’s heartbreaking. [00:07:55] We both know people who are very technically good, of course, and very bad on the [00:08:00] other side. And it’s heartbreaking, man, because the patients don’t know they’re good 100%. [00:08:05] Their staff don’t know they’re good. Yeah. And they might have the best matrixing, the best whatever it is. [00:08:10]

Shyun Patel: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, of course the best is if you had both sides for sure. Um, but [00:08:15] I don’t know, pick a surgeon based on his bedside manner rather [00:08:20] than his technical skill.

Shyun Patel: I don’t want to put disrespect. Maybe that’s the wrong podcast to say this on, [00:08:25] but you could teach a lot of people how to do dentistry, what you could teach a lot of people how to dentistry. [00:08:30] I feel like you could get someone to spend enough time with them. You know, these days.

Payman Langroudi: You think you can teach the communication side. [00:08:35]

Shyun Patel: I’m very you know, I think this goes to quite a deep philosophical [00:08:40] debate that we can go into where I was talking to my friends about how much can you change someone [00:08:45] you know, can, if I was some sort of, you know, mastermind [00:08:50] puppet master and I could take a baby from birth, could I turn them into Payman Langroudi with the right [00:08:55] inputs and outputs? And I kind of think, you know, when you think of standard deviation on a graph [00:09:00] and you’ve got a point here, and I think everyone in terms of balancing nature and nurture is [00:09:05] somewhere on a graph, and there’s only a top barrel and bottom barrel in which someone can [00:09:10] change. So I think majority of people can learn communication, but there’s an extent [00:09:15] to maybe which they naturally. Yeah, comes naturally. And I think [00:09:20] that learning communication is a lot harder than learning a skill because communication is all around [00:09:25] us. It’s people. It’s actually a lot more intricate, I feel. I think conversations now you [00:09:30] feel, I always say they’re like a tango, you know, it’s knowing where to step and when to push and when to pull. And [00:09:35] there’s some guy I used to get wrong a lot where people would say, hey, I [00:09:40] went to this place on holiday and I go, that’s fantastic. I went there and I’d talk about.

Payman Langroudi: About.

Shyun Patel: Yourself. Yeah. But it’s [00:09:45] more me trying to share the experience, but it doesn’t come across right. So you’ve got to actually, with time, learn how to [00:09:50] balance a conversation. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: I think conversations are not [00:09:55] like any other art, right? There’s a big part of it is curiosity for sure. Um, [00:10:00] but you’re right in that one of the traps people fall into is talk about themselves, you know, like [00:10:05] if any sentence starts with I is always a bit of a weak sentence, you know, most definitely. Um, [00:10:10] at the same time, it’s unavoidable as well.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I guess it’s showing relatability. [00:10:15] Yeah. It’s an interesting concept actually. So there was a book that I [00:10:20] was reading a while ago and it was Dale Carnegie. And he goes and he says [00:10:25] the key to being successful is making friends. And the key to making friends is not to be interesting, [00:10:30] but to be interested.

Payman Langroudi: How to win friends and influence.

Shyun Patel: People, of course. And [00:10:35] I know everything about me, but I don’t know everything about you. So and I think that kind [00:10:40] of feels kind of steps into my ethos that you can learn something from everyone. And [00:10:45] I don’t know whether you find it in the dental industry, but in life you have people that kind of turn their nose up to that [00:10:50] person. I can’t learn something from this, but someone can teach how to tie their shoelaces in a different way. And I [00:10:55] just think having an open mindset that every person you interact with is almost [00:11:00] can add to your toolbox of becoming this more fulfilled, better person. I think you have more enriched experience [00:11:05] of life.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you know, the way you’re framing it there is [00:11:10] like, in the end, it’s a successful way for yourself to be [00:11:15] interested in people. But I think there’s almost like a respect question [00:11:20] for sure that the next person walking down the street, whoever that is. [00:11:25]

Shyun Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is deserving 100% to be seen by you [00:11:30] 100%. At the same time, I know friends, people who say, look, time on this [00:11:35] planet is limited. I want to spend time with people who can, you know, push me forward. And [00:11:40] they’ve got that sort of weird outlook on things as well.

Shyun Patel: Do you feel [00:11:45] so in your journey to where you are today? I feel like you don’t know what you don’t know. [00:11:50] And I found that the things that have propelled [00:11:55] me, I’ve not even gone to places directly. Let’s say you go to a conference. Fine. It’s oftentimes [00:12:00] at the restaurant or at the bar after that, have the best conversations that propels you. So it’s. Have you found you [00:12:05] find that sometimes just that conversation you thought for the pleasure of the conversation. Yeah. Takes you somewhere you don’t [00:12:10] even realise. Yeah. I think maybe that perspective would be.

Payman Langroudi: And look, this is why I’m doing this Ministry of Sound thing. [00:12:15] Yeah, yeah. Because, um, at events. What do you want from the event? Yeah. The there’s [00:12:20] the education on the screen. Mhm. But you know, you went through Covid, we [00:12:25] can get a lot of that online. Sure. Then there’s the sort of people [00:12:30] you meet. Yeah. There’s the people you meet and the enjoyment on the day. But [00:12:35] really a key thing is, can I call you later on.

Shyun Patel: And [00:12:40] build a relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Build a relationship. If I’ve got an issue, can I call you? Yeah. And you know, right now, me and [00:12:45] you can call each other, of course, because we we’ve been to ten events together. [00:12:50] Whether that event was a party, an enlightened party, or whether it was PDSA [00:12:55] where I.

Shyun Patel: Of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, you know, we see each other enough times and you get to a point of trust and, [00:13:00] hey, give me your number and all that. But I, whoever I meet, I give my number [00:13:05] to like whoever.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, including at a conference, a first year dental student. [00:13:10] I give my number to everyone.

Shyun Patel: How do you find that? So when I see you, it’s such a pivotal [00:13:15] figure in the industry. Well, I do, you know, and, uh, [00:13:20] as well as are friends now, thankfully to say. And one thing about [00:13:25] I found following PDSA is that I’ve got this, this platform and you’ve got this platform and [00:13:30] you go from maybe not yourself, but I thought I went from being a nobody to, you know, I’ve got dentists saying, [00:13:35] you’re the most popular dental student in Europe now. Everyone knows you had dental school. And I’m like, I’m just I [00:13:40] go home and make Lego sets. You know, I’m not nothing extraordinary about me. How do [00:13:45] you balance, you know, public perception of you? So one question I like to [00:13:50] ask people and I’ll ask you now is, what do you think’s people’s biggest misconception about you? [00:13:55] You know, you interact with so many different people.

Payman Langroudi: When you say [00:14:00] people, you know, like if we’re talking work, um, people [00:14:05] first of all think if you stopped practising dentistry, it must be because you’re a billionaire. [00:14:10]

Shyun Patel: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I stopped practising dentistry 16 [00:14:15] years ago or something. Like several times I stopped, actually. We stopped. I stopped [00:14:20] for five years as soon as we started enlightened. And in that period, I [00:14:25] was losing hundreds of thousands of pounds. Like hundreds of thousands. Yeah. The first 5 [00:14:30] or 6 years we, I think we lost a good half a million back then, which was a lot of money back [00:14:35] then, you know. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Well even now, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But back there was a lot of money and I used [00:14:40] to have friends and people meet me and say, oh, you don’t practice anymore. And I say, no. And they think you’ve [00:14:45] made it so successful.

Shyun Patel: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Not to practice. Yeah. That’s one misconception. [00:14:50] Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Was that stopping practice from shifting focus or did you. [00:14:55]

Payman Langroudi: In the first five years there was no choice. I mean, there was so much going on. I just I just had to I had [00:15:00] partners, so they continued to practice and they were basically funding me. Yeah. In that period. Um, [00:15:05] but then I went back and I started doing one day a week, two days a week, that [00:15:10] sort of thing. And then I had a bad day one day and I said, forget it, you know? Yeah. I spoke to Prav. Yes. [00:15:15] My co-host and I said he used to be a doctor. Okay. [00:15:20] He studied in Oxford, and he became, like, top of his class and [00:15:25] then did research and then never practised as a doctor. Okay. Because [00:15:30] his brother Kailash has, um. Dental.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. He’s down around the corner [00:15:35] from me in Manchester, isn’t he?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And Caitlin Prav is a very clever guy. So Kayla said to him, look, [00:15:40] you’re a clever guy. Just find out about marketing. And so he read up a bit, found out about Google, [00:15:45] all that. And his practice went berserk. And and then perhaps I thought, I’m going to start doing this [00:15:50] instead of being a doctor. Yeah. And he’s got this very interesting story where he talks to his tutor in Oxford [00:15:55] and said to him, look, I’m thinking of going into marketing instead of [00:16:00] becoming a doctor. And the guy told him, um, definitely do it. [00:16:05] Really? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Um, he sort of said to [00:16:10] him, look, if you if you if you want my advice, go. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: I think that about [00:16:15] life. You know, honestly, sometimes you don’t have it all figured out. And one thing that ethos I take is that I remember [00:16:20] Mark Zuckerberg said if he knew everything about Facebook before he made Facebook, then Facebook wouldn’t exist. And somebody’s [00:16:25] got to jump and figure it out on the way.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, Jensen from Nvidia says the same thing.

Shyun Patel: Did he [00:16:30] say same thing? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is crazy, right? Because you think that’s the world’s most successful company. Sure. And [00:16:35] he said, if you knew the pain, he would never. And there’s massive pain.

Shyun Patel: Oh, of course. [00:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got, you know, you’ve you’ve just done PDSA, right. And you can see there’s a thousand [00:16:45] moving parts.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: And um you don’t, the profit isn’t even [00:16:50] a big part.

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Of what you’re doing.

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying to you about the first five years of enlightenment. [00:16:55] I was putting out fires left, right and centre and losing money at the same [00:17:00] time.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s painful.

Shyun Patel: It is painful.

Payman Langroudi: It’s painful. Especially as a dentist. [00:17:05] Right? Because all your friends are now buying practice.

Shyun Patel: And they’ve got a nice shiny.

Payman Langroudi: Shiny [00:17:10] car. It’s hard and it’s not like I’m I was doing it, sticking at it. [00:17:15] I had no choice. Yeah. All our houses were on the line. Yeah. It’s hard. Um, [00:17:20] but the other thing that people get wrong, especially younger dentists. Yeah. They think [00:17:25] there’s this sort of like, master plan kind of thing and it’s not. No, [00:17:30] it’s exactly. My head feels exactly the same as when I was your age.

Shyun Patel: Do you know [00:17:35] what someone asked me right after the conference? They go, how do you feel? And I feel exactly the [00:17:40] same. And it’s almost the the weird thing. And I don’t know if you’ve ever felt this. It’s almost a selfish thing [00:17:45] to say. It’s almost a selfish thing to say. Um, but [00:17:50] I think there’s a time where you feel a bit unprepared and you’re not sure of something. And like you said, we’ve both jumped in [00:17:55] different retrospects and over a prolonged period of time, there’s a point where you can kind of sit and [00:18:00] it’s not like in front of anyone. You’re by yourself and you look in the mirror and you go, you know what? I was, [00:18:05] I was right. It’s that that weird feeling of like, I was right to stick with this thing that I wasn’t sure. And [00:18:10] I, I’m a very big fan of like mental frameworks to get me through times [00:18:15] because I think motivation dies and dedication at times of good days and bad days. But [00:18:20] if you kind of set your brain in a certain way. I remember reading, uh, James Clear [00:18:25] Atomic Habits and he mentioned something about an ice cube. You familiar with this, this concept to [00:18:30] me so.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve read it.

Shyun Patel: So remember he he gets an ice cube. And, um, let’s [00:18:35] say an ice cube is at minus ten degrees and you heat it up and it gets to minus eight, minus seven, minus six. There’s [00:18:40] no change. And you’re keeping up four, three, two, no change. And then hit zero. And all of a sudden starts melting. [00:18:45] Now does that mean that from heating from -10 to -5 that that wasn’t beneficial. [00:18:50] And sometimes I feel like in a society where there’s social media and even [00:18:55] go to the gym, there’s some sort of fast returns. You know, they say the two best time scales [00:19:00] to, to work on are within the hour and ten years, you know, which is quite juxtaposed. [00:19:05] But what am I gonna do in the next hour? And it comes back [00:19:10] to, um, another part. Have you heard of this? Um, I’ll try and summarise [00:19:15] it. The parable of the there’s all these different Chinese farmer. Have you heard this one before? It’s not, not [00:19:20] my coin. So I’m not going to take credit for it. But they talk about this, this farmer in China and [00:19:25] he’s running this farm and um, He’s got one horse [00:19:30] on the farm and his child is there and he’s feeding the horse. And one day the horse [00:19:35] runs away and the child runs to the Chinese farmer and he goes, dad, the horse ran away. This is really bad. [00:19:40] And he goes, well, maybe. And so the sons confused and [00:19:45] wakes up the next day and he’s doing the crops himself now.

Shyun Patel: And the horse comes back over the hill bringing ten [00:19:50] wild horses. And the son runs to the father and goes, this is amazing. Like there’s these, all these new horses. We [00:19:55] can go into the horse business and the Chinese farmer goes, well, well, maybe. Okay. So then [00:20:00] the sons then goes the next day and he’s training the horses, the wild horses, and one of them bucks and kicks him and he breaks his arm. And [00:20:05] all the people of the village go to the farm and go, this is awful news. Your sons broke his arm. And he goes, well, maybe [00:20:10] in the next day the conscription officer comes and goes, we’re going to war. And you take your son and he goes, well, my son’s arm [00:20:15] is broken. He can’t go to war. And so he doesn’t go to war. And then everyone goes, it’s amazing. He goes, well, maybe. And the point of the story is that [00:20:20] you never really know if something’s good or bad for you in the moment and something maybe, [00:20:25] you know, maybe you shouldn’t say this in case my parents are watching this, but cocaine on a two hour span [00:20:30] is not actually necessarily bad for you. But then if you take that to maybe three, four, five hours, ten hours [00:20:35] a week, these things that are things are only good and bad on a, on a certain time frame. And I feel like with, I [00:20:40] think.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right, you’re right, insomuch as a lot of us fall into the trap of thinking, is this thing good or [00:20:45] is it bad? And rather than what you’re saying, it’s good and bad. [00:20:50] Sure. Depending on what happens. And definitely, I think people’s biggest strength [00:20:55] is their biggest weakness. Mhm. Whichever wherever the strength is, you know, if you say, [00:21:00] oh, his strength is attention to detail, great.

Shyun Patel: But then they should see how [00:21:05] quickly you’re getting stuff. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Like they become like massive over perfectionists. [00:21:10] Or you could say he’s the kindest person I’ve met. Great. Yeah. But [00:21:15] then he can’t fire anyone.

Shyun Patel: They say it’s hubris in Greek. Greek mythology, where the character’s [00:21:20] fatal flaw is his own strength. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And often, [00:21:25] you know, what you’re saying is you start becoming known. It’s weird because people [00:21:30] have sort of expectation and all that. And the hubris that you can get from [00:21:35] that can really ruin your life. Sure. Because you the thing [00:21:40] that makes for me the biggest sense is that if someone likes this podcast, yeah, [00:21:45] they like this podcast because I’m just being me. Sure. Yeah. Now, if 100,000 [00:21:50] people like this podcast, it’s being me. That was the point [00:21:55] of it. If I’m now change through hubris, become this other person [00:22:00] that ain’t what they were into. They were into me.

Shyun Patel: It’s not. They don’t benefit [00:22:05] from it. But also you go home thinking they like a version of me that doesn’t really exist. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:22:10] you know, you’ve heard this thing that they say, don’t over dwell on your failures, but [00:22:15] don’t over celebrate on your successes because both of them are sort of temporary [00:22:20] things.

Shyun Patel: They say when you’re, when you’re at the top, when you’re successful, when you do something well, [00:22:25] they go, you’re not actually that good. And when you’re when you feel like you’re the worst in the world, you’re not actually that bad. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s very true. It’s very.

Shyun Patel: True. And that’s why I think it’s important to have a why. Anything you do, [00:22:35] you need to have some sort of why for us.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me this though, dude. Like [00:22:40] you’re obviously obsessed with self-improvement. Sure. Um, were [00:22:45] you that five year old? Like when when what was the inflection point when you [00:22:50] became this person?

Shyun Patel: Okay, let’s let’s go back. So, [00:22:55] uh, I’m very privileged. I had a very good upbringing. Um, but my mum and dad both [00:23:00] came from a lot of poverty and built themselves up to do, to do quite well.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:23:05] did they.

Shyun Patel: Do? So my my dad’s actually a dentist. Oh, really? And my mum did business and then worked [00:23:10] my dad and they have a practice now and they’re slowly thinking about winding down now. [00:23:15] Both my parents had hardship, but in very different ways. So my, [00:23:20] my mum’s parents owned a corner shop. Typical Patel and, um, but [00:23:25] her parents worked 364 days a year, and so often she [00:23:30] would be left at home with no food, and she’d have to eat chocolate from the cupboard and left very [00:23:35] independently. And hopefully my mum doesn’t mind me saying this, but there was one point where I think my [00:23:40] mum was asked, uh, she graduated and it was hard for, for girls back in that [00:23:45] age. And um, my nan didn’t really understand graduating. She goes, do I have to come to graduation? She was very [00:23:50] neglected. Whereas my dad had very, very, very strict parents, typical [00:23:55] Indian parents were.

Payman Langroudi: Were they both here as kids?

Shyun Patel: They were both here as kids. Yeah. Um, [00:24:00] in the West Midlands. And my, my dad wanted to go play and he couldn’t go play [00:24:05] because he had to do work. Anyway, fast forward. So that kind of amalgamation of the two polars [00:24:10] of having poverty, but in a very strict way where [00:24:15] you’re thankful in the long term, but it’s very difficult and free, they say, is it freedom or loneliness? You know, that’s [00:24:20] another thing people. And it kind of created me where I felt growing up there wasn’t. [00:24:25] My parents were very not like typical. There wasn’t a lot of pressure on me, but [00:24:30] they would talk about other kids in such a positive way that it kind of created insecurity in me. So I’ll give you an example. [00:24:35] In primary school, there may be a kid that was really clean around the house, and then [00:24:40] I’d be compared to this child and I’d be like, I’ve got to be really clean. Then a completely different kid who’s really good at sport, really [00:24:45] good at sport. And I know it’s really clever. Then I’d be really. So I’m competing against these five kids, you know, [00:24:50] I’m just this one trying to fight all these, these these battles off. And then what happened is [00:24:55] my parents never really. And they do now. But I think it just comes with like, the Asian mentality never gave me [00:25:00] that validation. So that kind of built on insecurity in me. So then growing [00:25:05] up, um. I paused that thought and come [00:25:10] back to it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: About three years ago, I read something that really gave me kind of fulfilment [00:25:15] and kind of gave me some reassurance was they did a survey called the Great Survey, [00:25:20] where they interviewed people that regard as great. Could be Cristiano Ronaldo, Roger Federer, [00:25:25] scientists, philanthropists, just people that were regarded great in their in their career. Yeah. And they [00:25:30] asked them, what is it that makes you great? Yeah. And like an overwhelming like 70, 80% of people [00:25:35] said, I don’t strive to be great, but I’m running away from a sense of inadequacy. And I resonate [00:25:40] with that a little bit, that that feeling of not feeling good enough drove me to want to do [00:25:45] things. When I have that little voice that goes, shine, you’re not smart. I will need to create fundamental evidence, [00:25:50] so I’ll have to. I got five offers for a hard course, so I can’t be that that stupid or you’re not [00:25:55] creative, so but but shine. You play three instruments and I’m in a band, so I can’t be that not creative [00:26:00] or, you know, you’re not that charitable then I’ve worked with this, so I’ll have to create fundamental evidence for [00:26:05] myself to battle this insecurity.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:26:10] then you’re saying your parents set up this insecurity by mistake?

Shyun Patel: I think so. It’s weird. [00:26:15] Right? So it’s weird because everyone’s very quick to [00:26:20] thank their parents and I’m very grateful. My parents had a very privileged upbringing, but also everyone [00:26:25] has their upbringing is what makes you who you are in some sense, your environment. And everyone asks, [00:26:30] I wish my parents did this, this and this, but then I wouldn’t be who I was if it wasn’t for those [00:26:35] sets of events. Yeah. Um, you.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t got any kids, have you?

Shyun Patel: No. Not [00:26:40] yet.

Payman Langroudi: Good.

Shyun Patel: No time soon. How do you find it? From being.

Payman Langroudi: The thing? The thing with kids. And it’s very [00:26:45] similar with employees as well. Yeah. It’s that. Let’s look at employees for for a second. [00:26:50] Okay. I’ve got a sales team. Yeah. The sales team are incentivised on [00:26:55] sales. Mhm. Yeah. You think that sounds like a great idea, right? Yeah. They need to get [00:27:00] sales and they’re incentivised on sales. Yeah. But what ends up happening there is you get an unintended [00:27:05] consequence of everything you put in place with [00:27:10] employees. Yeah. So on that on that simple example of if if I incentivise my team [00:27:15] on sales. What ends up happening is they go for the big sales because [00:27:20] that increases their numbers. Yeah, yeah. That’s good. Right. We [00:27:25] want big sales. But most people come to enlighten, you know looking [00:27:30] to try it once. Yeah, yeah. That’s that guy who’s just about to spend £18,000 [00:27:35] on a elite partner status with enlightened was [00:27:40] one day that guy who came in trying.

Shyun Patel: The foundation of your whole.

Payman Langroudi: Trying it once. Yeah, right. [00:27:45] And then he went up the escalator. Then they said, oh, if you buy six, you don’t have to pay shipping. Oh, okay. [00:27:50] You buy 12. Now we’re looking for one partner in each town who’s our elite partner. But he went [00:27:55] through that. Mhm. Now, if you incentivise only on sales that side of the funnel [00:28:00] where people are coming in gets ignored because this guy’s buying 1 or 3 [00:28:05] or something. Yeah, they’re not very focussed on him. Yeah. So. Oh I know, [00:28:10] I know what’s the answer to that. Incentivise new customers While you’re at it. [00:28:15] All right. Now we incentivise new customers.

Shyun Patel: A shift.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a shift there. There’s another unintended [00:28:20] consequence that comes out of that incentivise growth. Yeah. It puts [00:28:25] massive stress on the team, massive stress because it then incentivise annually [00:28:30] or by month or by quarter. Yeah, you do it by quarter. You get this thing called [00:28:35] quarter switching. Yeah. Where they take the foot off the pedal for the first quarter. Or [00:28:40] let’s say they go berserk selling like hell in the first quarter, the second quarter. No one needs anything because they’ve [00:28:45] sold so hard. They take their foot off the pedal there. Then the following quarter, they push again, and [00:28:50] then in the following year, switch it around because that second quarter was very slow. So now they can [00:28:55] build on it, you know, and it’s not their fault. You set up the system.

Shyun Patel: And there’s flaws. Like [00:29:00] I think it’s what we said about the hubris of a business. Yeah, we could almost shift it to that.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then [00:29:05] parenting same story, man.

Shyun Patel: 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Like your parents, when they were pointing out that kid [00:29:10] who’s good at football. Yeah. Or good at studying or good at that. They were trying to get you to be good at [00:29:15] those things, for sure. But the unintended consequence of that, this feeling of not being enough.

Shyun Patel: Yes. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well done. Yeah. You take that feeling. Some people crush under that feeling. Yeah. [00:29:25] You take that feeling and use it as fuel. Yeah. But my question is, [00:29:30] when did you become so tactical? Because it’s very early on. Yeah, I did, I, when I, [00:29:35] yeah, I went to PhD. Yeah. And I started reading self-development books. Yeah. [00:29:40] But you’re really early on this journey. Like when, when was it, how was it? So was it, was [00:29:45] it one book in particular? Was it one?

Shyun Patel: Was it one book? It was, it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was success itself. [00:29:50]

Shyun Patel: And unintended conversations. So what I mean by that. Fast forward to secondary [00:29:55] school. Yeah. Because I wanted to then be good at a lot of things. I wanted [00:30:00] to be good at a lot of different things. And they say the course of a, a person that’s a jack of all trades, jack [00:30:05] of all trades, never gets anywhere. Jack of all trades. Yeah. I liked music and I liked science [00:30:10] and I liked Like sport, and I liked all these different things. So I’ll talk to the the guys that were good at gym. [00:30:15] I talked to the guys that were, you know, starting businesses and the guys that were good. And I’d pick up different [00:30:20] things. And over time from just doing this out of pure interest of like wanting to better myself, I thought, do [00:30:25] conversations. Sometimes a new person would come into a group and no one would know what to say to them. But I [00:30:30] had some little link to them from another conversation and it started becoming beneficial to me. [00:30:35] So I thought, I enjoy talking to people, I enjoy learning about people, but actually the knowledge I gain [00:30:40] from even this conversation will actually benefit me in some way.

Shyun Patel: And then I thought, how can I [00:30:45] like with anything, get the reps in master skill? And we talk about reflection [00:30:50] a lot in dentistry. I think it was after every conversation, [00:30:55] it almost a subconscious way and it is a double edged sword. You do tend to [00:31:00] analyse the situation and think, could I have said this more? Could I ask more? How could I have made. I think it [00:31:05] comes down to how could I have made this experience better for the other person? And that allows me to reflect on myself. [00:31:10] And then I thought, well, there must be Will Smith [00:31:15] said. The two the two most important things in life are running and reading, running because you fight the little voice in your head [00:31:20] and reading because you’ll never face a problem in life that someone else in history hasn’t come [00:31:25] across, or in a book about it. So I started reading and sharpening the tools, and now I [00:31:30] feel like relatively comfortable talking to people or anyone.

Payman Langroudi: Is there a is there a [00:31:35] book that really resonated for you? More than the others?

Shyun Patel: I’d [00:31:40] probably say Atomic Habits was pretty good for me. Yeah, I’d say one of [00:31:45] the first ones is pretty stable for a lot of people, but just helped me streamline [00:31:50] my thoughts because sometimes I can go on tangents but [00:31:55] helps me keep things quite narrow.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s interesting is, you know, like whatever [00:32:00] frame of mind you were in at that moment might have made that the case. You [00:32:05] know, like you could read it again now and get different things out of it. Yeah, yeah. Maybe the moment [00:32:10] that you read it was the moment.

Shyun Patel: Sure. I think that about people in general. I [00:32:15] said to, um, my my, uh, close friend of mine went [00:32:20] for the Dental society presidency. They didn’t get it. I didn’t get it when I went for it. We can talk about that later. [00:32:25] And I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Get.

Shyun Patel: It. No, I go into that story actually. So I [00:32:30] wanted to make an impact on people. And, you [00:32:35] know, we were talking about events just before the podcast started. And sometimes you see these guys at events, you won’t name names [00:32:40] that they’re in a nice suit and tie. They’re on stage, look super polished. And I thought, I’m not, I’m not [00:32:45] that person. I’d never be that person. And, uh, you can, of course, a bit of disparities in [00:32:50] like, there are those kinds of people and there are these kinds of people. And I always felt I’m these kinds of people. I’m never going to be like that and [00:32:55] I’m going to go for dental society president. I put Liverpool on the map [00:33:00] and I’ve got these contacts, and I thought I could do good for the society, worked the whole year, did a bunch of campaigning [00:33:05] and stuff, and I went for it and I didn’t get it.

Payman Langroudi: It crushed.

Shyun Patel: You. Yeah. [00:33:10] You. Yeah. Crushed me. I didn’t leave my room for two days, actually. Uh, yeah. [00:33:15] Just didn’t take it well.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, dude. Yeah. Because it was some guy sitting in the back of the room who [00:33:20] didn’t even get to the point of asking to be president. Sure. [00:33:25] Like me, by the way. Yeah, yeah, I didn’t get involved one little iota in dental school. Yeah. And [00:33:30] you. And by the way, I’ve got a friend. His dad, unfortunately, took his own life. [00:33:35] Why? Because he didn’t win the Nobel Prize.

Shyun Patel: No way.

Payman Langroudi: That [00:33:40] was his goal. And, like, by the way, it’s not like as as as as [00:33:45] obvious as that.

Shyun Patel: Maybe, but. Sure, but.

Payman Langroudi: Trying.

Shyun Patel: To.

Payman Langroudi: Win the Nobel Prize broke [00:33:50] him mentally. And then he didn’t win it, so he had nothing left, whatever [00:33:55] it was, of course, whatever combination of things it was, his mother told him, you’ll never amount to anything, [00:34:00] for all I know. Yeah, yeah, but but it’s so interesting, isn’t it? Like for him, it was a [00:34:05] Nobel Prize for you. I didn’t even think anyone would ever want me as president of anything, so [00:34:10] I never even put my hand up. Yeah. So, like, how far you were ahead of me, but. And yet crushed. [00:34:15]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Crushed. And it came to me very recently that it’s not, you know, people talk about like, you know, [00:34:20] the financial aspect of dentistry or these achievements and goals and accolades. Now it’s just my younger brother who told [00:34:25] me this, um, call it an arbitrary hypothetical situation, having [00:34:30] £1 million in the bank. Sure. Fine. And he said to me, it’s not about having $1 [00:34:35] million. It’s about who you have to become to be worth $1 million.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice.

Shyun Patel: Nose. I like that, and [00:34:40] I thought, you know what? I don’t I don’t see, uh, Payman and think, oh, [00:34:45] he’s got all this stuff. I think, what must that guy have gone through? Who must he have [00:34:50] had to become to be a person that can do all these things mentally? And so for me, that’s. [00:34:55]

Payman Langroudi: The really interesting thing is if I push a button, £1 million drops your account, not a single thing changes. [00:35:00]

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: To the in the moment, like nothing changes. Yeah, yeah. [00:35:05] Nothing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not any different at all.

Shyun Patel: It’s not the destination. Right. It’s the.

Payman Langroudi: The company. [00:35:10] That’s what a brilliant speech that was. Um, but [00:35:15] you know, like, by the way, let’s call it £1 billion. Yeah. Like proper life changing. [00:35:20] Yeah. Amounts of money still right now we’re still.

Shyun Patel: We’re.

Payman Langroudi: Still, we’re sitting here talking. Yeah. [00:35:25] You’re still worried about your grandmother’s illness? Yeah. Now. [00:35:30] Okay. What can you do with that? Money can buy things, which is like, really? There’s [00:35:35] nothing. No, there is not a thing I’ve ever bought that’s made me happy. Fulfilled longer [00:35:40] than. Longer than about a week.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. Yeah, I don’t know, maybe someone [00:35:45] else has, like, had this life ambition to get a Rolex or whatever, and that was, you [00:35:50] know, important to them. Now they got it. But the thing itself, there wasn’t a goddamn thing.

Shyun Patel: It’s [00:35:55] who you become in the, in the, in the you, you can.

Payman Langroudi: Buy experiences. Yeah. That’s good. [00:36:00] That’s good. Yeah. I’ll go off to Burning Man and then travel [00:36:05] the world and go on every private jet or boat or whatever [00:36:10] turns you on, you know, like the opposite of that. Yeah. You know, sit on a top [00:36:15] of a train in Pakistan, if you will.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Experiences are cool. Experiences are [00:36:20] cool, of course. But in the end, as like a dentist guy. Yeah. What are [00:36:25] you gonna do? You got, like, I don’t know, four weeks off.

Shyun Patel: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: You could go on some five star hotels. [00:36:30]

Shyun Patel: It just ends. And you’ve got to have purpose.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Shyun Patel: Purpose. Do you do you feel like you [00:36:35] ask yourself those those some people shy away from it. They think I don’t need to think about. I’m just going to take [00:36:40] day by day. But do you ever think about your purpose and what drives you and keeps you going? [00:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: It happens to you is what I found. So some people may maybe, maybe you can sit on an [00:36:50] Anthony Robbins seminar and write it down and then go and make it happen. But [00:36:55] it happens to you, this podcast itself, this podcast. Yeah, it started off as a business [00:37:00] decision. We need to improve our, you know, reach on social media. [00:37:05] Um, so how should we do that? How much can we talk about toothpaste and teeth whitening? [00:37:10] Let’s talk about dentistry and people. Yeah, it started off that way. Yeah. But [00:37:15] now it’s a whole other thing. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s closer to a hobby than [00:37:20] to a business decision.

Shyun Patel: Passion project.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And what is a hobby? You know, something you [00:37:25] enjoy for sure. Something you try and get better at. You know, something where there’s a community of [00:37:30] you or whatever. Yeah, it’s much closer to that 100%. And then if I have to look back on it [00:37:35] and say, oh, what are you most proud of? What are you most proud of? That tube of toothpaste, [00:37:40] by the way? I really am. You know, like, of course, it took a long time to get that right. Or [00:37:45] these conversations, I say these conversations. Yeah. Because these are real, [00:37:50] right? And, uh, I bang on about this. Three of my guests are no longer with us. Mhm. [00:37:55] Yeah. And one day, you’re no longer going to be with us, of course. And this conversation is still [00:38:00] going to be there.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: When you say.

Shyun Patel: Purpose, they say, um, I, I, it’s [00:38:05] actually quite sad. I said at my grandfather’s funeral, I said, um, [00:38:10] nobody lasts forever, but you can create something that will. And whether that be a message, [00:38:15] something, something in someone. And so I think we should strive to [00:38:20] for positivity, strive to leave a positive impact on people because that’s, that’s really what [00:38:25] matters.

Payman Langroudi: I find interesting though. Yeah, there are some people who aren’t paying [00:38:30] attention to what’s going on. Yeah, they’re too busy in their [00:38:35] own world. Then there are other people who are paying attention, um, [00:38:40] but aren’t doing anything about it. So [00:38:45] I’m like that in our politics. I’m paying a lot of attention in politics. Yeah, [00:38:50] I, but I didn’t even vote for. I voted once in my life.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:38:55] Um, but then there are some people who know what’s going on and want [00:39:00] to act on it, want to do things. Yeah. And you look at your year [00:39:05] in Liverpool, you see all three of those types, most definitely.

Shyun Patel: Well in dentistry and in [00:39:10] my year in life. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I’m interested in the transition. Yeah. Or [00:39:15] do you believe that it is some people are just like that from the beginning because there [00:39:20] is I’ve been all three of those people.

Shyun Patel: I think I have as well for sure. I think [00:39:25] even so, perspective that you may or may not get is, um, you [00:39:30] speak to young people, young events, and it’s easy for someone like you or, you know, I [00:39:35] always say to my good friend Joe Lovett, he always says to me, oh, your generation is killing it. I wasn’t like this. I was doing this. But [00:39:40] even those young people that you meet that are doing said things have gone through that [00:39:45] journey. Well, some of them, maybe not all of them, but they have gone through that journey. Um. I [00:39:50] think it comes from an experience, a conversation [00:39:55] where you think about why am I doing what I’m doing? And [00:40:00] maybe the thought that no one’s. Maybe it’s the thought for me that no one’s gonna save you. I think [00:40:05] my mum said to me once, it’s self-reliance. Yeah. No one’s gonna, you know, bad things [00:40:10] happen to everybody. And at the end of the day, if something happens. [00:40:15] Yeah, you’ve got your family and friends, but you’ve really got, you’ve really got yourself to pull [00:40:20] yourself out of holes. And whether it be in business, whether it be in life, whether it be friends, uh, it’s [00:40:25] equipping yourself that, you know, maybe [00:40:30] not on every case, but I found that certain experiences in my life have got certain [00:40:35] things have got easier as I’ve got older and I’ve realised that the they’ve not got easier [00:40:40] because the dragon is any smaller.

Shyun Patel: I’ve just got stronger. When [00:40:45] you slay that dragon because you’ve got used to failure, you’ve got used to rejection. So [00:40:50] I think it’s different for different people. Um, for me, I can’t think. Pinpoint it to one moment. [00:40:55] Well, actually no, no. Okay. Now I think about it a little bit [00:41:00] more. There was a little bit of a pivotal thing that happened in my life that kind of shaped me. [00:41:05] I’d say probably, maybe I haven’t consciously thought about it until this moment, which is why I didn’t [00:41:10] go in with it. So, you know, I’d be a little bit vulnerable [00:41:15] here, but when I was, um, and a lot of my friends know about this, but when I was 19, [00:41:20] I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. And. I [00:41:25] self self-identity is a big thing. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re [00:41:30] a young guy, you’re a dentist, your student sports, whatever you want to identify as and identifying [00:41:35] as an ill person, but not an ill person that you can’t get rid of your illness is quite [00:41:40] a was quite a weird experience for me.

Payman Langroudi: So people mourn it. [00:41:45] People mourn.

Shyun Patel: People mourn it. Right. And I didn’t want to identify something where [00:41:50] you almost become the thing you think about. So yeah, I say to people, um, [00:41:55] after how many times of playing the piano to become a pianist, right? [00:42:00] If you wake up one day, go, I’m a pianist or you go, I’m a pianist. What would a pianist do today? They play piano. Then you, [00:42:05] you know, kind of self-fulfilling become the thing that you want to be. So I [00:42:10] had this illness and, you know, so without going into too much detail, I have [00:42:15] to go to hospital every six weeks for an infusion for the rest of my life. Right? [00:42:20] Which is, you know, one day you wake up and the next day and I think they say [00:42:25] you have 100 problems, you have a health problem, then you have one problem. Yeah. And I [00:42:30] think for me, it was like, okay, this is something that affects me. You know, I get extreme fatigue sometimes [00:42:35] and, you know, all these other issues [00:42:40] and struggles that come with it. But I never really wanted to let that stop me. [00:42:45] And it kind of made me put life into perspective.

Shyun Patel: And I think you asked me about where did this kind [00:42:50] of drive? You know, when you say the word drive in the word, it’s like you’re accelerating. You know, you’re going [00:42:55] somewhere. Yeah. Through the reflection of my own health. And, you know, there’s periods of time where I [00:43:00] think the end of my second, my biggest achievement, despite everything. And we can talk about more things in PDSA. The biggest achievement [00:43:05] of my life was in second year. It was my second year dental exams [00:43:10] and I was extremely ill in that period. Did my second [00:43:15] year exams and I finished my exam at maybe 3:00 [00:43:20] in the afternoon. I’d get home and I’d be so tired [00:43:25] that sometimes I’d get home in my jacket, lie on my bed kind of sideways, and I’d be stuck there [00:43:30] till the next morning because I’d be so I couldn’t even move. Right. And after my last exam, my [00:43:35] mum came and picked me up. I was really ill. Took me to A&E and I was in hospital for two and a half weeks. [00:43:40]

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Shyun Patel: But I still passed all my exams. I made it my mission to turn up for exams on the same day.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:43:45] this same problem.

Shyun Patel: The same, the same, the same, the same thing. Right. And, um, it’s, [00:43:50] uh. Yeah, it’s more just for me that, um. [00:43:55]

Payman Langroudi: So you feel like when that, when you got that [00:44:00] diagnosis, you feel like now I’m gonna try and make things count.

Shyun Patel: It’s more like my [00:44:05] parents. Your parents, everyone’s parents are only getting older. My grandparents are getting [00:44:10] older. Yeah. Everyone says life’s short. Yeah. Everyone goes, you know, um, it will [00:44:15] come, right? It will come to you. You get, you know, and some things do come to you. But people look at their lives. [00:44:20] You just woke up and got into dental school or you have to work for you have to kind of make a conscious. You woke up and made a podcast and you made this toothpaste. [00:44:25] No, you you sat and you thought and you made it happen. So with anything in your life, you know, you [00:44:30] could wake up, I could wake up at 30 or 40 and, um, you know, but I, [00:44:35] my, my life now, I think is, is fine. Like I’m not like a ill in that sense, but [00:44:40] it put in perspective the value of life. And I remember every [00:44:45] day I’d go to the sit outside for an hour and look at the car park and go, you know, this weird car park is now [00:44:50] my freedom. I never looked the car parks the same way. And so I thought, you know, I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow [00:44:55] or in three years time. I’m gonna act now. I’m gonna do it now. I’m not just gonna get in good [00:45:00] shape. I’m not going to go and live this fulfilling life. I’ve got to make it happen. So I just that day, I thought, yeah, I’m [00:45:05] gonna go and make it happen and then made it happen.

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Shyun Patel: That. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I love that. One of the [00:45:10] important things is dealing with life’s issues is gratitude. [00:45:15] Gratitude for what you do have. Sure. The other thing is with with, with things like [00:45:20] illness, often it’s a thing where if you meet other people or [00:45:25] hear of other people who’ve who’ve got it or had it or lived with it, [00:45:30] somehow it’s something about that makes it like, okay, it’s [00:45:35] not just me, you know.

Shyun Patel: This is the reason I, I can tell you now, I’ve told [00:45:40] about six people and I’m putting on a podcast. And I, funnily enough, So [00:45:45] I called my mum before I was walking in. I said, I’m going, I’m going on this podcast. And I said, should I, should I mention this? [00:45:50] Is this something, you know? And she goes, how do you feel about it? And I go, uh, I [00:45:55] was embarrassed about it or scared about it, or you shy away from these things and you realise, you know what, like I said, [00:46:00] in the kitchen, I feel like I’m at a point now where I’ve done Bdsm, I’ve [00:46:05] got this platform and I feel somewhat of a responsibility that through [00:46:10] the grace of my life and whatever there is in the universe, I have this [00:46:15] ability to I’ve built confidence over time, you know, from whatever means that’s come from. [00:46:20] And someone else may be suffering with the same thing, someone listening, a dentist, a student somewhere. [00:46:25] I think, well, if this average kid that’s ill can do this, then maybe [00:46:30] I can do do it too. And I feel.

Payman Langroudi: There’s huge value in that, dude. Huge [00:46:35] value. I had someone we ask a question. I mean, I don’t know if you’ve listened to this pod before, but [00:46:40] we ask a question about mistakes. Okay. And this. This dentist had made a mistake [00:46:45] that she was ashamed of.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And at the beginning told [00:46:50] me, look, I don’t want to discuss it. Mhm. And then I said, well, what is it? And then [00:46:55] it was such an important thing. Yeah. Why do [00:47:00] I ask about mistakes? Not to take my guests through pain? Right. No. It’s so that we all learn [00:47:05] from our mistakes.

Shyun Patel: For.

Payman Langroudi: Sure. Yeah. It was such an important thing. And I said. I said, look, of course [00:47:10] it’s up to you. It’s your podcast. You can take it out if you want. Yeah. But [00:47:15] it’s the most valuable thing that happened in this podcast. It was the most valuable thing [00:47:20] that was said in, in that whole podcast. And maybe in the last 30 podcasts [00:47:25] that I’ve done. So that was the most valuable thing. So yeah, you owe it to yourself. [00:47:30] The rest of us.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The rest of us to talk about it. How have it embarrassed you are about [00:47:35] that mistake. Yeah. Mhm. Um. And we’ll see. We’ll see. [00:47:40] Well, of course, of course. It’s not my decision, right? It’s that person’s decision. Yeah. Um, [00:47:45] but we’ll we’ll see how that ends up in the same way. Of course, it’s your [00:47:50] right to keep any or all of this, any and all of this confidential for sure. But [00:47:55] there’s people listening who’s going through this and need.

Shyun Patel: I think so I think there’s a point where you look at [00:48:00] yourself and you think, why was I put on this planet? You know, I am a bit of a [00:48:05] sucker. I’m a bit of a hopeless romantic. I, I, I, I don’t know if that’s the [00:48:10] right word to put it. I, I you’re a girlfriend. I don’t actually, I was, I, um, I’m [00:48:15] actually building a dating app.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You said you said, okay, let’s talk about that. Yeah. How did [00:48:20] that come about?

Shyun Patel: Okay. So I don’t [00:48:25] like being put in a box, you know? So I like living my life in paradoxes. So I [00:48:30] am a dental student that’s, you know, run a half [00:48:35] marathon that, you know, is in a band that is called the extractor. Shout out [00:48:40] to my band The Extractors. And I like doing things where you go on stage and then, you [00:48:45] know, we’ve been at the bar plenty of times. So this juxtaposed of life and I thought, okay, you know why? Why? Okay. [00:48:50] Good question. I’m not I’m [00:48:55] not majorly religious, but I believe in God or there’s something out there, right? And so I [00:49:00] believe I, I believe in God, but I don’t believe in a religion right now. [00:49:05] The issue with that maybe call it an issue with the wrong word is that you have to find what is [00:49:10] your purpose. And I had to sit and think, what was the purpose of life for me? And I found that [00:49:15] the purpose, life for me is to feel things the good, the bad, angry, sad emotions. And [00:49:20] you get emotions from striving for things. You know, the process of building a company builds emotions. And [00:49:25] so with experience, I thought, what is the one thing that builds the most emotions? It’s meeting people, speaking [00:49:30] to people. People bring the most emotions. So I thought by [00:49:35] doing a bunch of different things, I’m actually going.

Payman Langroudi: Exposing, exposing.

Shyun Patel: Things. Yeah. The [00:49:40] why, why why why why. Comes back to, you know, my purpose of life. I like feeling things. Everything will come back [00:49:45] to that. So me doing different things, me, you know, going in paragliding in Vietnam [00:49:50] and then, you know, sitting in volunteering for a charity exposes me to two different kinds of people, [00:49:55] which selflessly, I have a really good conversation with [00:50:00] that person. Hopefully they enjoy it. But also selfishly, I get to experience two different sides of life. [00:50:05] And that’s my why. That’s why I like doing a bunch of different things.

Payman Langroudi: So keep going. The app [00:50:10] then.

Shyun Patel: So then I thought, okay, um, they say don’t, don’t. When [00:50:15] kind of doing a Start-Up and creating a business, don’t try and solve [00:50:20] a problem for everyone else. Try and solve a problem that you have and assume that other people have that same problem. Yes. So [00:50:25] I thought, okay, um.

Payman Langroudi: You were having dating problems.

Shyun Patel: Say problems. It’s, um, [00:50:30] it’s more that it’s looking at the world [00:50:35] and seeing which direction is the world going in and the world is going to a more a more digital way. [00:50:40] And sure, people try and push these apps where you meet in real life, but everyone’s [00:50:45] free to do that. And I think that comes from within. And you don’t need a platform to go and meet people, you know, on the street. You can have [00:50:50] conversations and whatever the way the world is going a certain direction, and I have some amount of influence. So [00:50:55] I thought, okay, the way apps are sorted now, where there’s different little bits of information, [00:51:00] there’ll be information like you support Liverpool FC and I support Liverpool FC, so that means we’ll get on and [00:51:05] that gets you so far or you’re like Iranian compatibility. Yeah. Well [00:51:10] it’s more like your.

Payman Langroudi: Common interests.

Shyun Patel: Common interests. You have common hobbies, but you don’t have common alignment. [00:51:15] Yeah. First, second or third day. Fourth day. And then what are you talking about? You’re talking about how many kids do [00:51:20] you want and where do you want to live? And you know, what’s affected your your perception of love? What’s your relationship with your parents [00:51:25] like? Right? Yeah, I actually believe that there are about 20 questions that [00:51:30] you could ask somebody that would give you a pretty, like I could give you a sheet of 20 questions and you have 100 [00:51:35] words for each question. And I could say to you, knowing you, if you’d get on with that person or not from [00:51:40] the talk, you could probably tell yourself, I think maybe you get it wrong certain times with more, with a lot [00:51:45] of probability. I feel like you would be able to tell if you were to get on with that person or not. So [00:51:50] I.

Payman Langroudi: Hear.

Shyun Patel: You. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But look, you know, the notion of like, opposites [00:51:55] attract.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Are you, are you is that is that.

Shyun Patel: It’s not, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not pairing based [00:52:00] off the same answers. Yeah. It’s pairing based off. So the obstacle 21 [00:52:05] questions. Um, and I’m trying to build an MVP at the moment.

Payman Langroudi: So, so what are [00:52:10] those say four of the questions like the good ones.

Shyun Patel: Um. What, [00:52:15] what, what is a reoccurring [00:52:20] issue you’ve had in relationships that you want to change, for example? Right. And [00:52:25] I think these are questions that I see someone sat in bed a long [00:52:30] day of work on the phone, on the sub, reading someone’s answer to something about the relationship. It doesn’t [00:52:35] have to be.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see, I can see other people’s answers. Yes. Yes. Raw.

Shyun Patel: Raw. [00:52:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see.

Shyun Patel: And then you almost fall in love with that person through the way they speak. But all that does is the [00:52:45] the real life interaction still needs to happen, right? That’s the fundamental.

Payman Langroudi: But how interesting.

Shyun Patel: Instead of [00:52:50] meeting someone at like, let’s say the person you’re gonna date is typical [00:52:55] dating apps get you 60 to 100% and every person on date falls within 60% compatible, 70, [00:53:00] 89 to 100. I’m trying to get you to 90 to 100 where you might not get on with everyone, but [00:53:05] for every date you go on, you know, at least.

Payman Langroudi: You know the person quite well. Yes.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. You’ve [00:53:10] hit the ground a little bit runny. You’ve opened this conversation’s something I did actually, in a different format. Um, [00:53:15] one of the feedbacks from Leeds was they wanted more networking. Yeah. I thought, look, I’m [00:53:20] confident I can come to you and talk to you about anything. Some kids can’t. So we had we had networking [00:53:25] tables and we had a stand that goes, I want to be an orthodontist. I’ve got imposter syndrome. And everyone that sits [00:53:30] at the round table. And we had one dentist on each one gets to start a conversation already. Oh, you got to, I got to [00:53:35] and then yeah, start a conversation. So yeah, something I, I, um, [00:53:40] more passion project, but.

Payman Langroudi: But how far are you with it?

Shyun Patel: Uh, early stages. Um, [00:53:45] I’m working with a developer using a bit of AI now, so AI is cool. And, [00:53:50] um, like I said, building an MVP. So it’s, um, a really viable [00:53:55] product. So it’s how quickly can I, when you start a business, it’s how quickly can I test [00:54:00] this for the cheapest amount of money to the most people? So the best way I describe is, [00:54:05] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Have you read lean Start-Up?

Shyun Patel: I haven’t no. Do you recommend.

Payman Langroudi: That’s where MVP came [00:54:10] from.

Shyun Patel: Oh okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Definitely.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:54:15] but have you come across lovable right.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I built, I built the website [00:54:20] with lovable.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So MVP can make day after tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Literally literally. [00:54:25] Yeah. I was looking at cloud cloud AI as well. I think there’s a good couple systems. But yeah, I think [00:54:30] the thing was you probably had loads of people go, I’ve got this idea, but how fast can you execute is the [00:54:35] basic test.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing about business ideas because [00:54:40] I was talking to my son about this, you know, like he’s, uh, doing aerospace engineering.

Shyun Patel: How’s he finding.

Payman Langroudi: That? [00:54:45] Hard? Hard, like difficult course. Yeah. Loving it. He’s loving it. He’s having a great time. Um, but, [00:54:50] uh, you know, he’s only the first year. Yeah. And I was like, okay, what are you going to do with [00:54:55] your life after that? And he’s not sure. Like one of the reasons he’s engineering was because [00:55:00] he wasn’t sure.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It gives you options.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But like, does he want to be an aerospace engineer? [00:55:05] Maybe maybe he’s very into it. There isn’t that much money in it [00:55:10] number one. Yeah. Um it’s mainly defence. Yeah. And [00:55:15] that’s tough if you’re, if you come from the world I come from. Sure. That just gives you PTSD [00:55:20] every time you see it. Um, so there’s those things and then, you know, all his friends are [00:55:25] kids of bankers. Okay. So should he become a banker? And that’s bloody [00:55:30] boring. Yeah, but, you know, loads of money in that. Sure. And so what’s he going to do? Yeah. So I throw out [00:55:35] into the thing. Oh it could be like an entrepreneur guy. He’s like yeah but do what? Which what? [00:55:40] And I think like, I don’t know man. I think everything’s crap.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [00:55:45]

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s rubbish.

Shyun Patel: Do you find that do you find that as a business owner, I find that I walk into restaurants or look into something. [00:55:50] I could make this better.

Payman Langroudi: No. Everything’s rubbish. Yeah, yeah I know. The only things that aren’t rubbish are maybe my AirPods, [00:55:55] but my latest ones, the rubbish.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I’ve never been a big airport guy.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m saying I [00:56:00] can’t think of anything. Like you go to like a seven star hotel and it’s rubbish. Yeah, [00:56:05] sometimes. Yeah. There’s plenty of rubbish that everything is crap. Everything could be a bit better. There could be better [00:56:10] coffee at every moment in your life if you’re a coffee guy. Yeah, like there could be [00:56:15] much better everything. I agree. And so it’s so interesting because that means you could do so many [00:56:20] businesses.

Shyun Patel: Look around, look around.

Payman Langroudi: Make it make something better.

Shyun Patel: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Have you been skiing? [00:56:25]

Shyun Patel: I’ve been skiing. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So you know those, fully DOS party places on the mountain. [00:56:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like that guy didn’t invent the idea of a party on [00:56:35] the mountain. Yeah. Yeah, he just made it better. He made it good. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah.

Shyun Patel: You have [00:56:40] to reinvent the wheel. You’re right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah, yeah. But when you’re young, you think you do. You think you’ve got to be an inventor?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [00:56:45] I remember that the, the whole solar panel car that everyone goes through.

Payman Langroudi: And you think to invent something [00:56:50] like the number of times I’ve tried to invent some sort of interdental electric brush thing.

Shyun Patel: I think [00:56:55] everyone has had that. Yeah. Self brushing thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But just [00:57:00] like if you could have, I don’t know, the best anything.

Shyun Patel: Find a little margin on something that already exists. [00:57:05]

Payman Langroudi: If you had the best anything anywhere.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, like if you could in Liverpool [00:57:10] make the best anything, anything. The best burger, the best [00:57:15] hotel, the best anything. Yeah. You’d be great a great business. Yeah, [00:57:20] yeah. Then okay. The best, whatever it is in the whole country.

Shyun Patel: Just expand your niche.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [00:57:25] The best. Whatever it is in the whole world. Yeah. Okay, now. Even better. Now you’re really talking. That’s where the investors [00:57:30] get interested. You know, total addressable market is like $10 billion.

Shyun Patel: Or.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it [00:57:35] is. Yeah. So if your dating app, you know, it doesn’t have to even be the best dating app, the best dating app for the [00:57:40] type of person.

Shyun Patel: Who.

Payman Langroudi: Wants that.

Shyun Patel: Kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah. But you’ve got a niche though. I think that’s what [00:57:45] things are. You just businesses are just attacking niches. Yeah. And you know, to.

Payman Langroudi: Start.

Shyun Patel: With, yeah. So [00:57:50] that’s what I’m starting with a niche, starting in a small city, building a culture, a culture building is a big thing. You’ve got it with the podcast. [00:57:55] So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Something I’ve come across, I mean, is this, is this, am I talking [00:58:00] crap? Why are Patel so like good at business? Like, what’s that about? Is it [00:58:05] true?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, there’s, there’s.

Payman Langroudi: My partner’s a Patel, my business partner.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. There’s a whole I [00:58:10] have had that as well. I said at the conference, the last thing we need is another Doctor Patel. But it’s probably [00:58:15] going to be another 50 come through next year. Um, I don’t know. Maybe [00:58:20] it’s culturally rooted. I’m not sure. Maybe it’s the Asian background. [00:58:25] Maybe it’s just we come from a background of they say Patel’s a shopkeeper’s. You know, they say [00:58:30] there’s always this joke. Or was it at school? Um, what? Patel’s don’t play football [00:58:35] because every time they have a corner, they build a shop. That’s what they say. Right. Um, [00:58:40] and I think just having that there’s a difference from working in a factory [00:58:45] that kind of style and having your own business, no matter how small it is. So I think maybe that entrepreneur [00:58:50] has always been a thing. And then I’m not sure. I think I think maybe as [00:58:55] Patel does something, you look at that Patel would do something and then herd mentality. Herd mentality is a thing, [00:59:00] isn’t it? Um, and then you’ve got this auntie saying this and this uncle saying this and you think, okay, I’ve got to [00:59:05] be this. I think that’s what it is. I’m not sure. What have you come across a lot?

Payman Langroudi: Patel’s yeah man. [00:59:10] Yeah. A dev told me, you know, dev from Dental beauty, he told me, yeah, he’d [00:59:15] be sitting in, in rooms where people were just discussing business plans when he was [00:59:20] six, and he was paying attention to that. And he said by the [00:59:25] end of it, like what.

Shyun Patel: Education.

Payman Langroudi: What he knew about business was way more because [00:59:30] it was openly discussed in the family.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Payman Langroudi: He said, might have been a Patel trait.

Shyun Patel: That [00:59:35] is true. That is true. Your family gatherings and there’s just politics or this person’s done this and you start to think, [00:59:40] oh, maybe people everything comes.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, people underestimate osmosis as [00:59:45] a way of learning, you know, because my me and my brother, we used to be [00:59:50] in the same place all the time when we were kids. Yeah. But I was happy sitting [00:59:55] in the kitchen. Yeah. And my brother wasn’t. Yeah. And I wasn’t sitting in the kitchen [01:00:00] to learn how to cook. Yeah, but you can’t help it. Like your mum or your grandmother are chopping an onion. [01:00:05]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I realised many years later, my brother doesn’t know how to chop an onion. [01:00:10] Yeah, yeah. And I do not, because anyone came and taught me because I was sitting in the room 100%. [01:00:15] Osmosis is such an interesting.

Shyun Patel: Way of, I say to students like now, as if I’m not a student, but [01:00:20] the power of showing up, right? Just show up and just. Yeah, just show up and sit there and just.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you the other thing that you’re [01:00:25] very good at that more people should be like you. Yeah. Just asking [01:00:30] you be amazed at myself. The number of people who will never [01:00:35] ask for something. Yeah, I think I, I learned it when I was 45. [01:00:40] Really? Just like if you want something, ask for it. Yeah, yeah. And the number of times people have [01:00:45] asked me for something and for no reason, I’ve just said yes because it solves [01:00:50] my problem. Just because it feels good to help someone, right?

Shyun Patel: It takes a lot to ask, [01:00:55] I think. Yeah, it takes a lot. Takes a lot to ask.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But some people find it really easy and ask loads of questions and they [01:01:00] they get a lot further.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: And some people find it really hard and don’t even think to ask. [01:01:05]

Shyun Patel: I guess asking question is technically taking a risk. You’re taking a risk. You’re putting yourself in a position of you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Putting [01:01:10] yourself out.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, you could even before you were this famous student. Yeah, you [01:01:15] could have, you could, you could send an email to Corey Ferran. And [01:01:20] ask him to shadow for a week. Yeah. And he’s the kind of guy who. Well, listen, by the way, don’t [01:01:25] do that. Not not you. I’m saying I’m not. I’m not encouraging everyone to email. Email Corey. [01:01:30] Who knows? But he is the kind of guy who might just say, yeah, come turn up to my unbelievable [01:01:35] practice in in Wimpole Street. Yeah. And stand around for a week. He might say that [01:01:40] as a as a student, you think, why would he say that? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: But actually [01:01:45] why not? I actually, I actually flip, I actually flip what you say on its on its head about why [01:01:50] would a student say yes. So I started this whole not entrepreneurship, [01:01:55] but this whole dive into the dental world through Andy [01:02:00] Acton, you know, um, your ex rival podcasters, podcasters. [01:02:05] Yeah, I don’t know, friend, frenemy, frenemy, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: He’s, he’s a good friend.

Shyun Patel: He’s [01:02:10] a, he’s a, yeah, he’s, he’s probably the first guy that I’ve reached out to in the dentistry that gave me, gave me a [01:02:15] hand. And, uh, I just, I just, I just sent him a sent him a message. And yeah, I [01:02:20] remember the last thing I said in this Instagram DM because we don’t have, you know, messenger pigeons or, you know, that’s the [01:02:25] millennial way. Um, I said, uh, I think he has the same question. Like, which three people would you, would [01:02:30] you want to eat dinner? And I think I said, oh, I maybe next time someone asks me, I can [01:02:35] put, um, Andy acting next to, I think Cristiano Ronaldo and, uh, Joe Rogan and [01:02:40] then you go, sure, let’s go for dinner. We went for dinner. And I find that what I [01:02:45] said now it’s a different game. It’s a bit more saturated than when I first took the dive for whatever [01:02:50] reason. Is that the second you graduate, the second you get your GDC number, it becomes [01:02:55] a lot harder. It becomes a lot harder, I feel, because in some minds of some [01:03:00] people, not everybody like yourself, your competition, right? When you when you’re a student, you’re just, you’re [01:03:05] just a student that’s asking for help. And you people want to help you. If you’re young and you ask for help, I feel like people want [01:03:10] to help you. And I found that when I, when I was coming through my perspective.

Payman Langroudi: Jesus Christ, man.

Shyun Patel: I, [01:03:15] I find that that’s the best thing that I’m talking about. Andy said to me is that [01:03:20] we’re not none of us are competing. We’re competing against someone buying a new car or a new holiday. [01:03:25] You know, there’s enough patience to go about, which is what I believe. But I think my [01:03:30] generation, maybe a little bit older, there is that kind of competitive streak between people, unfortunately. [01:03:35] And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to the type of person who can get into dentistry [01:03:40] these days. It’s a competitive type of person.

Shyun Patel: True, true. You can’t blame I guess it’s, uh.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:03:45] find it overwhelmingly people don’t see each other as competitors. I mean, people see [01:03:50] each other as competitors when they’ve got practices on the same road.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: I can see that [01:03:55] we we kind of play on that a little bit as suppliers. Yeah I do. Yeah. Um, [01:04:00] because we have one partner who is that status in that town [01:04:05] and people want to be that partner. Sure. You know, um, but people practices [01:04:10] on the same road maybe. Yeah. Sometimes teachers get competitive. [01:04:15]

Shyun Patel: Do they?

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes. Sometimes teachers get competitive. But [01:04:20] it’s definitely not the case. Overwhelmingly.

Shyun Patel: I find people want. Every person I’ve reached out to [01:04:25] has helped me, and I feel like I’d encourage students that people want to help you. They have no reason not to help you. You know. [01:04:30]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s go to PDSA. Sure. Yeah, because I was massively impressed by [01:04:35] the Leeds one passer did. Yeah. Um, just the scale [01:04:40] of the thing.

Shyun Patel: He smashed it.

Payman Langroudi: I had no idea. I hadn’t been to that part of [01:04:45] PDSA for years anyway. Yeah. But I had no idea how big it was. Yeah. 1000 [01:04:50] students, 1000 humans. Yeah. Anything times a thousand is a nightmare. Like [01:04:55] if you want to put a leaflet out for a thousand people. Yeah, that’s one, two, three, 4000. [01:05:00]

Shyun Patel: So when you see, when you see it, you’re like, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just a leaflet, one leaflet or [01:05:05] you want to put you guys ask us for toothpaste for you put a thousand toothpaste into a thousand [01:05:10] tote.

Shyun Patel: Bags. Our living room saw it, you know, living room.

Payman Langroudi: So anything. Tens of thousands. [01:05:15] Tough. So tell me about did you volunteer for it?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So [01:05:20] I, we talked about me not not getting Dental SoC. Yeah. [01:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: And how long did it take you to get over the crushed feeling? Were [01:05:30] you still not over it?

Shyun Patel: Still crying. I’m weird. It’s it’s it’s. I’ll [01:05:35] get past things because you can’t dwell on things. But also, maybe this is the wrong approach. You’re sensitive, [01:05:40] but having. Yeah, I take things personally because I feel like that drives me to want to go. And that’s cute. [01:05:45] Yeah. Close the loop. Got to close the feedback loop on everything so.

Payman Langroudi: You got.

Shyun Patel: Over it. The bracket was open. Yeah. Well, I [01:05:50] said everyone has a selfish and selfish reason for doing everything. Yeah. My selfish reason [01:05:55] was the same as Dan soccer wanted to show people you can be anyone and do anything. Yeah. My selfish reason was [01:06:00] I wanted to, you know, make my parents proud. Essentially, I wanted them to see me on that stage. And I said, at the [01:06:05] Dental, the president’s parents got to go on stage, got to come to the ball. They’re the only parents who [01:06:10] come to the ball, and they were going to see me on stage and be like, oh my God, I didn’t get it. And I was like, oh. So I [01:06:15] thought, okay, I’m gonna go for it. So I went for it, but I thought, if I’m going to go for it, I’m gonna fall flat on my face. So just [01:06:20] a week after Leeds. Bear in mind the AGM for voting was in July. I was like, I’m gonna start planning now. [01:06:25] You know, like I’m gonna give them irrefutable evidence. I’m going to do this. So I [01:06:30] viewed all the venues. One week after Leeds went to all the venues, went to the M&S Bank arena, went to the cathedral, went to all these [01:06:35] venues, planned it and made a logo before the thing even existed.

Payman Langroudi: Before you were the guy.

Shyun Patel: Before I was the guy, [01:06:40] I made the logo and I went to, uh, Jay Jay Patel, super [01:06:45] lovely guy, worked with aspire and we made this video, this trailer that has gone around [01:06:50] and yeah, went, went there. And I said to them, well, [01:06:55] what would you want? I thought, what would they want from someone going for this role? And when you’re pitching [01:07:00] yourself, I find everyone goes, I’m a rapper. This, this, this, this, I do this, this, [01:07:05] this, that’s fine. But if you give them an experience where you’ve got the logo, you’ve got the venue. [01:07:10] And the one thing I said is that everyone can say x, y, z. But I said, you might not remember every lecture. [01:07:15] You might not remember every drink at the bar, but you remember how you felt, right? [01:07:20] And people come back to me and say, I remember that. And they go, I gave them something that almost existed in their mind, and [01:07:25] them not voting me would have taken that away. It wasn’t something to gain. It was something to lose. And [01:07:30] so I got this. And little did I know that again. Um, fast forward [01:07:35] to November, October. There were points where if I was to go back, I probably [01:07:40] wouldn’t have done it. We talked about this naivete and my.

Shyun Patel: So [01:07:45] I got the conference. I built a committee of about 20 people, [01:07:50] average age about 21. I thought, okay, you know, leads cost about [01:07:55] 160 grand. We’re in for 190. We’ll make something. And maybe this is just poor [01:08:00] budgeting. The issue with Bdsm, which I think it’s almost harder than some businesses, is [01:08:05] that you have some sort of financial plan with the business. You know, you go, we’ve got these, you know, nails [01:08:10] and we know this is going to come in and it’s going to be north or south of this. This is what we’re planning for. It should be to say is that [01:08:15] you you sign a bunch of contracts like I’m going to spend this money. And then it’s like, well, we’ve got zero. We’ve [01:08:20] got to make this money now. And one thing that I found is that when I’m set on something, maybe it’s this obsessive [01:08:25] trait or issue that I have, I’m set on it, I want this, I want this to happen. [01:08:30] So instead of budgeting, I made more money, went from 190, became 200, 200, 210, 210, [01:08:35] 200. And in the end it was me and three other three of my team. We made, we made a quarter [01:08:40] of 1,000,000 in 8 months.

Payman Langroudi: And in total.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, in total.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s sponsorships, [01:08:45] ticket sales tickets.

Shyun Patel: So yeah, we sold, uh, 950 tickets in nine minutes. [01:08:50] And what? Yeah, we sold it in nine minutes. We sold out in nine minutes. [01:08:55] How we did ticket drop and sold out in nine minutes. We did three, four ticket drops.

Payman Langroudi: The anticipation [01:09:00] thing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing. I thought one thing I said, which thankfully paid off for [01:09:05] me from the second I got it, I go, this is the biggest undergraduate Dental conference in history. And it [01:09:10] wasn’t it didn’t exist. It hadn’t happened. But I just said that. I said that from the July. And [01:09:15] it was a risk but self-fulfilling. It became the biggest Dental student conference in the history of the UK from. [01:09:20]

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting with students, the. The virality is gigantic. It’s much more. I’ve [01:09:25] noticed that when I get students on this. Yeah, the virality is way more way. [01:09:30]

Shyun Patel: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Than when I get.

Shyun Patel: Why do you think that is?

Payman Langroudi: Because you guys are just more connected, more connected [01:09:35] to each other. I mean, like, for instance, the notion that you have to download the society app. [01:09:40] Yeah. To buy a ticket. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. It sounds mad, like from a, from a business perspective. [01:09:45] What more friction? Sure. Yeah. But the, you guys know that [01:09:50] you have to download the society app and that, that news travels, you try and get that news [01:09:55] out to dentists. Yeah.

Shyun Patel: So many steps.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Come, come and buy a ticket to my event. [01:10:00] By the way, download this app first. Who’s gonna do it like with students Just news [01:10:05] travels.

Shyun Patel: I think I think what you do in your events is very similar to BSA. [01:10:10] And I’ll tell you why I want to ask you about it. So I’m not naive enough to know that not [01:10:15] every student cares about education. Want to spend a weekend learning, right? Not every student wanna do that, right? [01:10:20] But when it comes back to the thought that you don’t know what you don’t know. So you’re having an event at Ministry of Sound. Yeah, [01:10:25] that’s a cool place to be, right? Some people just want to go to ministry. Some people for [01:10:30] me just want to go to the boat party. Some people just want to go to the cathedral. This is a party. Yeah. And [01:10:35] they go for a party, and they end up walking into a lecture. Oh, I learned something there. So it’s almost like I played [01:10:40] on the people that want to learn are going to come anyway. The people that want to come for a boat party want to come to create [01:10:45] an aspect of FOMO, want to come to a big gala dinner, are going to come for that as [01:10:50] a by-product. They’re actually coming for the the conference is the by-product and they end up learning and meeting. [01:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Someone said, we get this on our composite course. Yeah, people pay 1500 pounds for a two day hands [01:11:00] on and a number I wouldn’t say the majority. Yeah, a [01:11:05] number are just like trying to get out of the surgery.

Shyun Patel: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s hard. Being a [01:11:10] dentist is hard. Yeah. You have four walls and a nurse. Yeah. If you don’t get out once in a while, see the world, [01:11:15] see what’s going on, you get tired? Yeah. Um, and by the way, they’re on [01:11:20] the course. They’re on the course. But their primary driver is to maybe sometimes [01:11:25] 2 or 3 of them will get together and you know, from pals from dental school now they’re like [01:11:30] eight years in or something and they’ll say, oh, let’s have a weekend in Manchester together. Yeah, we’ll do it on the course. [01:11:35] Yeah. But their main driver isn’t to learn the skill, but they’re [01:11:40] in the course. Yeah. So sometimes we’ve had uh, warehouse project on [01:11:45] at the same time as mini smile makeover. And sometimes we turn up for the second day and [01:11:50] half the class didn’t make it.

Shyun Patel: Somehow.

Payman Langroudi: To the.

Shyun Patel: Second day. Yeah. [01:11:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And they paid £1,500 for the, for the, for the learning. Yeah. Um, [01:12:00] I mean that’s rare when half the class don’t make it. But.

Shyun Patel: But it happens.

Payman Langroudi: What? Your point [01:12:05] is, people do things for lots of different reasons. What events? You know, [01:12:10] like ministry for me is, is the idea with it was that I, [01:12:15] it started out with, I’m pissed off with gala [01:12:20] bloody dinners.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like I get.

Shyun Patel: Subpar food.

Payman Langroudi: You know, why? [01:12:25] Why do we have to dress up like James Bond?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, why? I mean, then you say, oh, it’s [01:12:30] a chance for the ladies to put their dresses on. Okay, fine. Yeah. And the other thing I [01:12:35] got really pissed off with is, uh, fancy bloody dress. Yeah. [01:12:40] I don’t like fancy dress. I do not like it personally. Okay. So then. Then I was talking to. Who [01:12:45] was it? Nick Sethi from bath. They’ve got a big fancy dress party. Okay. And I said, why is it we have to turn [01:12:50] up either as James Bond or Spider-Man? Why can’t we just turn up as us?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah. For yourself.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:55] that that idea of let’s let’s do a party where it’s just us. Yeah. Was [01:13:00] the initial thoughts? Sure. Yeah. But then with events, as you know, the two [01:13:05] big costs or it depends on your, your focus, right? But for me, the two big [01:13:10] costs are the a V because all AV is terrible everywhere. Yeah. I mean everywhere.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, [01:13:15] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If I come across a single place where the AV is any good.

Shyun Patel: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: So you have to bring it in [01:13:20] yourself. Of course. It’s a goddamn nightmare.

Shyun Patel: Expensive as hell.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the setup that [01:13:25] you have. How much did that cost? That was unbelievable. How many.

Shyun Patel: Screens? So?

Payman Langroudi: So [01:13:30] it was one gigantic screen.

Shyun Patel: It was one gigantic. And it fed in. So our overall setup for the [01:13:35] the whole thing was V6O8V30.

Payman Langroudi: Well that’s all.

Shyun Patel: Bad. It’s not bad, [01:13:40] but a lot of AV came with our room, which our room hire itself was 60.

Payman Langroudi: Oh [01:13:45] okay. Okay.

Shyun Patel: So then yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So for me AV is a massive problem. Yeah. Getting a nice [01:13:50] good screen. Yeah. Feel sound. Everything correct. Um, so Minister [01:13:55] of Sound’s got amazing AV in place, like the world’s best sound systems.

Shyun Patel: Did not come from just. You want a good [01:14:00] AV and ministry and just married the two AV.

Payman Langroudi: And then the second thing is the party, [01:14:05] the social. Yeah. Mhm. Um, for me, that’s important because of everything we said, because I [01:14:10] have fun number one. But number two, so everyone can have fun, everyone can have fun and meet each other and [01:14:15] ministries ministry. Yeah, it’s already it’s already in place.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I suddenly realised those two [01:14:20] things are in place. Yeah. And then so the idea of a nightclub event was, [01:14:25] was the thing. And then we said, like which nightclub?

Shyun Patel: The nightclub. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s have a look. [01:14:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I realised I was looking at Coco as well, which is in Camden.

Shyun Patel: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:35] name recognition wise. Yeah. Ministries Ministry.

Shyun Patel: Of [01:14:40] course.

Payman Langroudi: Well, and it’s so interesting. Yeah. Because if I said the minimalist at Queen [01:14:45] Elizabeth’s second conference centre. Yeah, yeah. Now you don’t know what [01:14:50] that is. You have to fully trust me on what the education is going to be like. Even if I had an [01:14:55] amazing party at Queen Elizabeth and party. It’s a cell. It’s difficult [01:15:00] to know what that is. Whereas you kind of know what this ministry events going to be anyway, [01:15:05] because it’s a nightclub event, we’re trying to make it different.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And make it very fast paced [01:15:10] and education that’s different. And treatment planning, audience participation [01:15:15] on nice. You know, which way did it, should it go? Experts say what they think. And [01:15:20] the.

Shyun Patel: Audience.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And only 15 minute lectures. Um feel different. [01:15:25]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. That’s what people want. We talk about like businesses. You don’t have to be better. You have to be different.

Payman Langroudi: Not [01:15:30] only different in a stupid way though. I just think like education’s a bit stuck.

Shyun Patel: What do you [01:15:35] think it’s going like?

Payman Langroudi: It needs to go and what it needs a shake up [01:15:40] like definitely needs a shake up dude. Yeah. Because like education hasn’t changed.

Shyun Patel: Dentistry [01:15:45] has changed. Education hasn’t changed. Yeah, yeah. It’s lagging. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve always thought [01:15:50] if I was the BAC, d or the a d, you know, like rich organisations. Yeah, [01:15:55] I would take a blank canvas event. Yeah. Have you seen it when you’re looking for [01:16:00] venues?

Shyun Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Some venues they’ve got things. They’ve got bars and all that. And [01:16:05] this blank, blank canvas.

Shyun Patel: Oh, you can build it.

Payman Langroudi: You can build it, whatever.

Shyun Patel: Where you have the expense there. The expensive, expensive. [01:16:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but the notion of while you’re watching the lecture, we’re doing this at Missouri [01:16:15] while you’re watching the lecture, food and drink are available while you’re watching the lecture.

Shyun Patel: Nice. [01:16:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: So it’s an experience.

Payman Langroudi: If I yeah. If I want to have a beer while I’m watching this lecture, it’s [01:16:25] there. Yeah. And there’s, there’s waiter service in the VIP, you know what I mean. So, so it makes [01:16:30] going and I think of it as a cinema. You know, I’m not a massive movie fan. Okay. [01:16:35] Yeah. But if I ever go to a movie, I definitely go to one of those ones where there’s amazing food, [01:16:40] amazing sofas. Yeah. Because if.

Shyun Patel: The movie.

Payman Langroudi: If the movie’s rubbish.

Shyun Patel: This [01:16:45] experience was something.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve got I’ve still got the experience, you know, that that was the thinking.

Shyun Patel: No, [01:16:50] I like that. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then tell me a okay Massive risk.

Shyun Patel: Massive [01:16:55] risk.

Payman Langroudi: Not knowing whether you’re going to pull it off financially. All of that. These 20 [01:17:00] people were you like, did you did you ask like, what’s the best way? Or did you [01:17:05] think of it yourself?

Shyun Patel: There was.

Payman Langroudi: Was each of them in charge of one aspect?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, there was a lot of I’m a strong [01:17:10] believer that anything that you do, you stand on the shoulders of those before you. So so with Lina and Parsa, um, [01:17:15] both did amazing successful events. And, you know, we had my committee, [01:17:20] you had the exec committee, you guide me. But ultimately I had a vision. And the vision is [01:17:25] not made up of anything physical. It’s just kind of these ideas of feelings.

Payman Langroudi: How you want people to feel.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:17:30] And I thought sometimes it’s just you have dreams of stuff like, would it be cool to be in a boat party [01:17:35] and see fireworks? I thought, let’s just make that happen. So did it. Um, and I wanted [01:17:40] people to step in there and feel I’m not, I always say the phrase, I want the least interesting thing about [01:17:45] me to be that I’m a dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Shyun Patel: Right. So, you know, [01:17:50] we’re in the people business. So you don’t talk to people about being dentist or talk to patients about being [01:17:55] a person. So come to the event I thought I want, whether you’ve got imposter syndrome, [01:18:00] you’ve got you want to be an orthodontist or you want to have 50 practices, there’ll be, there’ll be someone there [01:18:05] for you. And, uh, with the committee, it’s hard to motivate people. You’re not paying. Yeah. [01:18:10] And what I’ve learned is that people are motivated by different things in business. It may be [01:18:15] I can. Now, you might come up with a couple more, but in business, I narrow it down to three things. Motivate [01:18:20] by money, move by time, motivate by how much can I progress my career? Okay. [01:18:25] I guess committees like understanding each person’s individual, knowing what drives them. And [01:18:30] I said, the harder it is, the more fulfilled you’ll feel. And you make a name for yourselves. And we had [01:18:35] a little, um, kind of reality TV show that Artemis, uh, was [01:18:40] doing for us on our social media team. And I realised that I am, I have [01:18:45] an understanding of everything, but I’m not the best at anything, you know, maybe, you know, talking to sponsors [01:18:50] and onboarding clients. You know, I feel like I’ve got some grasp back, but the social media guys, [01:18:55] they’re better than me. You know, the people doing the ball, they’re better than me. All these different teams, all these different [01:19:00] people were better than me. So I think to be a good leader is to understand you are good at this. You [01:19:05] be in charge, you give them guidance and you can, you know, have to reshape some emails and, [01:19:10] you know, well.

Payman Langroudi: Well, that’s an important point, dude. Yeah. Because yeah, I [01:19:15] like Virginia. Yeah. We know we both the Virginia. Of course. Hey, you take care of this. [01:19:20] Yeah. Whatever the thing is. Yeah. The the delegation [01:19:25] of that task to her. Yeah. There’s one sort of easy way of [01:19:30] thinking about it is I want people to feel this way. Go for it. Yeah. And leave it all [01:19:35] up to her. Yeah. Yeah. That’s one way. Yeah. That’s not great leadership.

Shyun Patel: No, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:19:40] great leadership to even say, I want someone else to do something, I trust you. Yeah. That’s one level [01:19:45] leadership. But the next level is Success looks like this. Yeah, [01:19:50] failure looks like that. The milestones towards success [01:19:55] are five. So we’ll meet five times as [01:20:00] each of those milestones happens. Yes. And we can work out together. What’s the best thing and what’s [01:20:05] in your way and how I can help you.

Shyun Patel: Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s not my natural way.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No, [01:20:10] my.

Payman Langroudi: Natural way is. Go ahead and do whatever you want. Have to do.

Shyun Patel: Do you feel like it comes out [01:20:15] the way that you want it or you. You’re okay with that? Do you go with.

Payman Langroudi: My natural way? Man, I’m. I miss those [01:20:20] five meetings. Really? Yeah.

Shyun Patel: I kind of see it as the. I kind of see it as [01:20:25] like there’s a, B and C players in kind of businesses, companies, how good they are, how [01:20:30] good they are. But sometimes people.

Payman Langroudi: You can leave them.

Shyun Patel: Ace. Like, you know, I’m going to tell you, do [01:20:35] this, do this, do this, do this. B’s going to be like, I want this, but these are the landmarks on here. And [01:20:40] C’s like this is the goal. Make it happen. And, and I think, you know, [01:20:45] Dave and Virginia, for me, very much like could tell them things. Of course, sometimes it’s not exactly how I wanted [01:20:50] it. Sometimes it’s better than how I wanted it. But that’s when you delegate. Delegate is a tough, tough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:20:55] one of the toughest.

Shyun Patel: It’s.

Payman Langroudi: How did you find sales? Did you find that [01:21:00] very simple? It came.

Shyun Patel: To me. I’m a. I’m a Bryant Dental rep.

Payman Langroudi: So of [01:21:05] course you are.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Been been doing sales and.

Payman Langroudi: I just had. I just had them on. Did [01:21:10] you and Connor.

Shyun Patel: Connor. Nice. How did it go?

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It’s um with [01:21:15] sales. I think it’s just understanding. People say, how can I provide value to this person? I think if [01:21:20] you’re trying to sell something when it comes across wrong, but you miss the point, the whole point of sales, [01:21:25] I feel, is to what value add can I add to this person? What experience have [01:21:30] they had? So what people don’t ask the question, what conference have you been to? You’re a dentist. You’re went to BACD. What [01:21:35] was really good for you? What didn’t go so well for you? And then how can we focus [01:21:40] in on the things that do provide you value. Um, and understand look.

Payman Langroudi: And then delivering [01:21:45] is the.

Shyun Patel: Delivering is hard.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard when there’s so many. You guys, we have 3036 [01:21:50] sponsors.

Shyun Patel: Well, that’s the thing. It’s you know, I think overall there was a positive experience. [01:21:55] Someone had an amazing experience. Some sponsors didn’t have um, as [01:22:00] positive as others, but they’re all positive. But then it’s like different people want different things [01:22:05] out of it. And when you push in one direction, something else gets taken. And it’s [01:22:10] for me, the hardest thing with BSA was everyone talks about like, okay, undersell overperform, [01:22:15] but then when you’re scared of selling 1000 tickets, you kind of got to market it. So do I, do I over market [01:22:20] it and like make it this big phenomenon? Do I under market and no one comes to it. It’s that [01:22:25] balance is very tough for me and I will not be doing it again. Events for a long time, but [01:22:30] I’d have a lot more insight going forward.

Payman Langroudi: You learn loads, you [01:22:35] learn loads. Um, but I find, you know, what I find hard about selling is intention [01:22:40] to buy. Yeah. Is kind of this cloudy thing. [01:22:45] Sure. Saying yes, I will buy. Yeah. Like the yes moment. Yeah. [01:22:50] It’s difficult to.

Shyun Patel: Even even after the yes.

Payman Langroudi: The than the payment. Oh, yeah. Like payment for events. [01:22:55]

Shyun Patel: We’re still waiting as.

Payman Langroudi: A as a sponsor myself. Yeah. I personally hate paying [01:23:00] for an event before the event. Like, yeah, like with me, I like paying one week before if I [01:23:05] have to. Sure. I kind of like paying for it after the event. As, as the organiser though, you need [01:23:10] that money, especially with you guys, right? There is no other money.

Shyun Patel: There is no other money.

Payman Langroudi: There’s some other money [01:23:15] I.

Shyun Patel: Was seeing the account were down, down, down the invoices. And you’re waiting for. Yeah. And then the Po [01:23:20] number and all these things come up.

Payman Langroudi: But but then, but then, but then the cardinal sin, the cardinal sin is [01:23:25] being very attentive until the moment that people say yes. And then and then [01:23:30] just leaving them. Yeah. And it’s, it’s almost, it’s almost like a natural thing [01:23:35] because your motivations are that way. Like right now I need this headline sponsor for [01:23:40] Ministry of Sound for sure. Yeah, I need it. Yeah. So I’m following up people. I’m like, [01:23:45] hey, did you look at the thing? What do you reckon? You know, I need it badly. Yeah. So I’m following [01:23:50] up. Then when the person says yes, I’ll be the headline sponsor, your natural thing is to breathe. [01:23:55] Okay. That’s done. I don’t need to contact him.

Shyun Patel: You still need to deliver.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, you do need [01:24:00] to contact him and say, hey, let’s talk about how we’re going to make this a massive success for you.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, sure. And that’s what [01:24:05] I think. I think the event was so big, it was trying to balance. One thing I wanted to do was the experience for the sponsors. [01:24:10] So typically have trade fairs and you dot people. I allocated committee members [01:24:15] to groups of stands. I said, look, if no one said go make conversation, talk to them, bring people over. I wanted everyone to [01:24:20] have a good experience. Um, and it is a hard balance to, you know, when you’ve got the next [01:24:25] thing to the next thing to do. But ultimately the, the sponsors and I think students realise this [01:24:30] really allow the events to go to this size, then investing in the next generation [01:24:35] and hopefully there’s some value add is what makes these events possible. So I’m forever indebted to the sponsors because [01:24:40] some of them won’t realise those points. My back was against the wall and it’s not like it’s [01:24:45] very easy for me to say, but there’s a there’s a there’s a [01:24:50] point that could be argued. I don’t want to compare them where you’re in business. And sure, [01:24:55] if your house is up for sale and your back’s into one of your kids, food’s on the plate, you’re in dire situations. But if [01:25:00] I’m in a business and I could have made money and lose a bit of money, fine. But this was national humiliation. This was [01:25:05] I can’t make I can’t make a loss. I have to chase it. And when we were going to, to [01:25:10] January. Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny, isn’t it? The driving force is [01:25:15] I don’t want to be humiliated and I want to make my parents proud.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [01:25:20]

Payman Langroudi: Like, it’s a funny thing, you know, like from the outside, you’d say, hey, here’s an ambitious [01:25:25] kid. Whatever. He’s doing his event, whatever. Yeah, but the driving force is to make my parents [01:25:30] proud.

Shyun Patel: We signed the contract, and then you sign your life away. And I was like, that’s it. Life was gone. Didn’t see my friends, didn’t [01:25:35] do it was, uh, it was a tough year. It was, uh, I was, I would say to people I did about 40 hours [01:25:40] a week on top of. Give us an.

Payman Langroudi: Example of something that went badly wrong that you didn’t expect.

Shyun Patel: I [01:25:45] did something bad that came around to be a good thing in the end. Um, so we were initially, [01:25:50] every year there’s, there’s been one venue, if you’ve been to them, the dinner and the conference [01:25:55] in one venue. And so we went to the M&S Bank arena. We wanted to have everything in one venue. That’s what happened. [01:26:00] They have in-house catering, so we didn’t know that we were set on this place. It was [01:26:05] the only place that could hold that number of people. So we either can do a conference that was smaller than last year, or have [01:26:10] to push it to 1000.

Payman Langroudi: You’d made the promise, right?

Shyun Patel: I made the promise conference. I [01:26:15] had to go for it. 1000 signed it. Everything was good before I signed it, had conversations and they would go, okay, [01:26:20] you can’t use any of the catering. And they use this company called, I won’t say this company. They have to use an in-house company. Now [01:26:25] they’re catering for all the people. And bear in mind, I’ve never done events. So I just went off what passed and I [01:26:30] go, okay, catering for the ball 13,000. Okay, okay, cool. [01:26:35] But 13,000 went to these guys.

Payman Langroudi: For a thousand people.

Shyun Patel: I don’t know how he does it. Don’t know how he did it. But [01:26:40] they had an in-house company, I think £15 each.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. They they got some Indian companies [01:26:45] going. This company. Okay. Um. How much? 8000. I [01:26:50] go, oh, okay. We’re not gonna have to have a dinner. How we can do it. So then okay, [01:26:55] I’ve got I’ve got a new venue. Can I find another venue? Do the a v for everything. Less than eight hours. I found one, they could bring it down. [01:27:00] Okay. I did it at the had the cathedral set it up. As we’re going along [01:27:05] they go. We had a really bad experience bringing in an external caterer. You’ve got two caterers to choose [01:27:10] from and this and the price for catering was like 5000. And [01:27:15] I was in a point where we weren’t going to have a gala dinner. There was going to be no gala dinner for BSA [01:27:20] for the first time ever. And it was in those times I went and spoke to Dean Virginia. It was I sat in my room [01:27:25] and my head was on the table. And I just thought, what am I going to do? So we tried [01:27:30] and tried and tried. I tried asking him, tried this sort of stuff, had a back and forth about trying to make stuff okay. We tried to build trust. Oh, [01:27:35] we’ve got the backing of the city. We can do this. We can sit down and talk to us. And one day, the [01:27:40] top guy of the cathedral sent a letter and he goes, no, no, no, you [01:27:45] got to use these guys got 50 K. And I got to Virginia and Dave got this email and I was in clinic and I got [01:27:50] this email and go, okay, so we’re not we’re not going to have a dinner. Okay. We got to figure out what we’re going [01:27:55] to do now. Panic stations. Remember the committee don’t know. It’s almost like we’re the parents and we [01:28:00] know something bad’s going to happen and they don’t know, and.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t want them to lose their.

Shyun Patel: License and [01:28:05] nobody knows. And you’re here and your heart’s palpitating. I remember we got told about, um, ten, [01:28:10] 10:00, okay. And I said to Virginia, [01:28:15] I go, okay, a sense of almost I call it delusion, [01:28:20] a delusion. It was complete delusion, complete long shot. I go, you know what we’re [01:28:25] gonna do? And this was after months of back and forth, go to wardrobe and find [01:28:30] your best suit and put and put your best suit on. And we’re going to go and knock on the front door of the cathedral tomorrow. [01:28:35] So we’ll put on our suits next day. Completely hopeless. They and [01:28:40] they, we’ve had conversations like what? They told me. They just humoured me. They just humouring me. I [01:28:45] had this delusional ideas put on our suits. Three piece suit. One suit just went to the cathedral, knocked [01:28:50] on the front door. They were like, look surprised.

Payman Langroudi: Without an appointment.

Shyun Patel: No, no appointment. [01:28:55] Just turned up, turned up to the front door and we went in there and I sat down and they see [01:29:00] this and go, look, I’m running this event, this three day event. And we’ve worked so [01:29:05] many months on this. And the last piece of the puzzle is getting this dinner sorted. And we’ve tried for months [01:29:10] and we’ve had ups and downs. And I want to look at you. And I said, look, you’ve never had a student event here. You have [01:29:15] no reason to trust me. Right? And I gave him all these reasons to why this, all these reasons, what I will [01:29:20] do will work for the team. Da da da da da. And he goes, okay, get this, get [01:29:25] this caterer. You want to bring in, get him to sign a proposal. Like two weeks later, I wrote a proposal, got it approved, [01:29:30] and I flipped it around. But it was it was no logic. It was nothing. It was just a sense of just [01:29:35] let’s just go. And I think no analogy for life. Just go knock on the front door and just amazing. Just see. Yeah. [01:29:40] So lots of ups and downs, a lot of, uh, grey hairs gained. But, uh. [01:29:45]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about practice.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want to tell [01:29:50] me about?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So, uh, your practice. Yeah, yeah, it’s [01:29:55] an interesting thing to say to me. So I’ve got a pretty [01:30:00] interesting, interesting story. I have a dental practice. Now. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: How did you fund it?

Shyun Patel: I [01:30:10] had an interesting business. So when I was 19, I, [01:30:15] you know, like typically typical young Asian [01:30:20] kid, like I got a whatever I do in life, I wanted to make an upstream impact on upstream and wherever [01:30:25] I landed on for me, I wanted to make impact, you know, in terms of as a clinician, you impact your patients. Like, how can I impact [01:30:30] the, people, the dentists, the impact the patients and make as much impact as possible. I like talking [01:30:35] to people. That’s my strength. I’ll, I’ll go down the group of practices. And my plan was I was going to get [01:30:40] one in my first year, my first one two years out. But I thought, okay, to [01:30:45] to do this goal, you need some capital. And I was 19, I tried dropshipping, I [01:30:50] tried trading, tried forex, I made a couple thousand, lost more thousand, didn’t really do much. [01:30:55] Right. So and then one day I was, I was in my living room at home. I was scrolling [01:31:00] through Facebook Marketplace and everyone’s probably watching this saying, you should go touch grass, go [01:31:05] outside. But there I was scrolling through this marketplace and I saw that people were selling fridges on Facebook Marketplace. [01:31:10] But the weird thing was that they were selling them for free. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [01:31:15] just take it away from me.

Shyun Patel: Take it away from me.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a problem, right?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And I was so have you seen like a [01:31:20] fridge or a sofa on the side of the road? People often see them. And I thought, why, why, why do people do this? [01:31:25] Did what? Research? And turns out there’s CFCs and chemicals in and fridges that make them really [01:31:30] hard and dangerous to dispose of through landfills. It’s quite expensive process. Yeah. And, um, [01:31:35] I thought, okay, sat and I thought and I thought and I thought and I thought, okay, the same way Uber [01:31:40] don’t make cars and Trivago don’t make hotels. I’ll connect product to consumer. [01:31:45] So I one day went on Facebook [01:31:50] and I reached out to a guy selling a fridge and, um, [01:31:55] said I hired, I think the first one was with my car like a small one. And I went [01:32:00] and picked up this fridge and put it in my polo. And then I did a bit of research about, [01:32:05] you know, it was in pretty good shape this first one. And then I sold it.

Payman Langroudi: Was it working?

Shyun Patel: It’s working, [01:32:10] it’s working, it’s working. All of these ones are working.

Payman Langroudi: The guy just wanted.

Shyun Patel: To just.

Payman Langroudi: Get rid of rid of it.

Shyun Patel: They want new [01:32:15] fridges, but they wanted.

Payman Langroudi: To sell it on Facebook Marketplace.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, we did a bunch of someones Facebook Marketplace, uh, [01:32:20] eBay, bunch of different stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Got it for free from Facebook Marketplace and then sell it.

Shyun Patel: And then what I did is, [01:32:25] um, is that I realised that there’s something here, you know, being the middle man. And [01:32:30] I then used to, like, you know, hire vans, uh, pick up fridges from all over, all [01:32:35] over. I was at uni.

Payman Langroudi: Facebook marketplace.

Shyun Patel: Facebook marketplace, eBay tree, [01:32:40] bunch of different websites.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of people were trying to get rid of fridges.

Shyun Patel: Fridges, fridges, and sometimes there’s [01:32:45] forums just this. You find crazy stuff online and pick them up and then we just [01:32:50] sell them. And I hired a bunch of people, um, knew what to look for [01:32:55] and things were faulty. You got to be careful because you need specific engineers to drain the gases and stuff and. [01:33:00]

Payman Langroudi: Fixing them.

Shyun Patel: Not not fixing them. It’s more like just taking a good, well, well, [01:33:05] um, fitted fridge that was functioning, cleaning it down. If [01:33:10] parts change. We did that, we kind of, um, freelanced that I bought relationships through the years and [01:33:15] then you sell them and then, uh, made a good amount of money and, uh. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:33:20] this is in dental school.

Shyun Patel: This is in dental school. Yeah. And, um, something that I don’t really talk about too [01:33:25] much, but yeah, I just thought, let’s now look at anything like TV. Microphone. There’s cup. I think someone’s [01:33:30] made 100 grand or a million off.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. This I look at fridges now and I think yeah, it’s great. [01:33:35] And unfortunately like the, the legislation, um, around fridges [01:33:40] has changed to change the chemicals and things. But that was something I did and it was, uh, just a gap in the market I saw. [01:33:45]

Payman Langroudi: So interesting.

Shyun Patel: And yeah, just used to be the fridge man and just, uh, buy and sell [01:33:50] fridges and did pretty well and then got a bunch of capital and [01:33:55] from there, you know, did a little bit in forex and then pushed it a little bit. [01:34:00] And then.

Payman Langroudi: When was the Bryant thing in this.

Shyun Patel: Bryant thing was more [01:34:05] in.

Payman Langroudi: Before or after fridges? Uh, during.

Shyun Patel: Towards the end of it, [01:34:10] Brian wasn’t really for monetary value. Brian was I wanted to learn, uh, [01:34:15] sales. Um, I think like a lot of people that have had contact with Bryant, the people [01:34:20] and the company, it’s very electric. I talked to George a lot And just [01:34:25] it’s just a forward thinking company. And I think like, you don’t know what you don’t know. And people [01:34:30] go and say, yeah, I want to build this big DSO big company. But like DSO is not structured the same way that [01:34:35] a single practice is, you know, these, these practices are almost structured more like a corporate company. [01:34:40] So having insight into manufacture, having insight into companies and [01:34:45] structure and people. And also, like I said, sometimes I’m talking to students, sometimes talking to my tutors. [01:34:50] And when you’re selling to, to dentists, it’s quite an intimate thing. So you’re having a conversation and they’re being [01:34:55] vulnerable with them. And as a person, a lot of most of these guys are sales reps, but I was a dental student. [01:35:00] So you learn a lot from talking to these guys. So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Listen, working for Bryant might be one of the best things [01:35:05] you could do as a dental student. Yeah. But what I find really interesting is their insight to [01:35:10] understanding the students will make good salespeople. Yeah. Because no one else is. No [01:35:15] one’s really done that.

Shyun Patel: I think only now recently other companies are catching on. But yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it could be anything, [01:35:20] anything.

Shyun Patel: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But that insight is a really interesting insight that they kind of built their.

Shyun Patel: Shoes [01:35:25] are hungry now more than ever. They want, they want, they want to.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, you know, you going into [01:35:30] 100 practices or whatever, however many you went into meeting 100 dentists, you could get [01:35:35] a job with one of those guys if you want. You’re more like the employer type than the employee. So [01:35:40] you made all this money?

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And then what happened was I would [01:35:45] so, so so I figured that clinical dentistry people talk about my tooth. I took [01:35:50] my tutors now and they go as people come out of dental school, they’re coming out. Maybe this isn’t true, [01:35:55] but this is just a thing that some people say. Maybe five trainers say that, oh, they’re coming [01:36:00] out worse and worse every year. And maybe there is not for everyone, but [01:36:05] an arrogance to some people coming out. And I feel that I am completely average dental student, average [01:36:10] every year. Nothing, nothing extraordinary academically or in terms of my with my [01:36:15] hands, I feel like it’s going to take me time to be a good dentist. I’ve got a lot to learn. I can learn off anyone. I don’t claim to be anything [01:36:20] special, but the business of dentistry. There are people, there are books. There [01:36:25] are videos you can learn about CQC. You can learn about comply SEO. You know, you can [01:36:30] learn about these things. You can learn about how to order products, and you can learn how to structure companies. [01:36:35] And I feel like this information, I’m very privileged to be born in the generation I am, [01:36:40] is out there, and I advise people to go out there and just learn about these things. And so. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s it’s drives me sometimes. Yeah, there’s some question. [01:36:50] I’ve got a question. Yeah. Whatever the question is, it could be sure chemistry thing with [01:36:55] I wish I paid more attention in chemistry in school nowadays. And now I’m having to hire a [01:37:00] bunch of chemists. Yeah. But it could be a chemistry. It could be any question. Yeah, sure. And you’re thinking, God, what’s the [01:37:05] answer to this question? You’re feeling a bit down about it. And then you’ve got to just wake yourself up and say, [01:37:10] dude, you are better placed to answer this question.

Shyun Patel: Than anyone in history.

Payman Langroudi: Anyone in history. [01:37:15] Now with AI.

Shyun Patel: Takes me like 10s. Yeah, you know, everything. The thing. So I think now [01:37:20] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: But it drives you.

Shyun Patel: Forward because it’s so it’s so it’s so easy to find [01:37:25] the answer to this people. And it links into the people side of things. But also you can do self-learning or [01:37:30] have more informed conversations about people. And instead of acting, asking, you know, agencies, oh, [01:37:35] like you can ask them what’s a good yield? Or what should you look for? Or what grade building should you look for [01:37:40] or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, uh, you know, a [01:37:45] practice popped up and, um.

Payman Langroudi: Were you signed on with [01:37:50] Frank Taylor Associates?

Shyun Patel: No, I talked to Andy, but.

Payman Langroudi: For the sake of the argument.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:37:55] were signed up to all these.

Shyun Patel: All these things. And my dad helped me, like, because he has a, he’s [01:38:00] a. Yeah. So so you look, you look at practice and you understand where there’s margins, whether they’re closing early, [01:38:05] whether there’s sort of more practices, capacity, you know, all these different things that you can really spend [01:38:10] time and learn about where the margins can be for practice. And I thought found practice with good margins. I thought, I can’t [01:38:15] take a, I’m not going to take a really thriving practice. I’m practice. I’m not naive enough to, as a 2122, [01:38:20] turn to even more thriving practice, but I thought, you know, there are margins here. Heavily referral practice, [01:38:25] ortho practice. People do clear aligners. You know, people asking this, this lady, oh, do do do do [01:38:30] composite bonding, do do this, this. And they said, no, no no no no. Well, okay.

Payman Langroudi: Was there an aspect of you here [01:38:35] that was like wanting to be the youngest guy ever to buy a practice, like something like that. Because I [01:38:40] remember the first time I met you.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You specifically came and asked me, do you know of anyone younger than me? [01:38:45] Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. So, so joy is I think it’s, um. [01:38:50] Well, that was a bit of naivety there probably in a little bit of, um, you [01:38:55] know, overconfidence.

Payman Langroudi: You driving you achievement of being, um, someone who does that [01:39:00] in Dental.

Shyun Patel: I think it sounds good, but over a long term, long term it doesn’t [01:39:05] fulfil me. It’s more that they see comparison unconscious comparison. Um [01:39:10] is is can [01:39:15] cause arrogance, I think, or can cause pain, but conscious comparison can cause [01:39:20] growth. So compare yourself to yourself, but also looking at everyone else around [01:39:25] you and almost looking at sure can look at Dental, but can look at dentists as well and say, look, where am I placed? [01:39:30] Because you go from, look, let’s be real. You go from being a and being like, okay, whatever hypothetical [01:39:35] place you want to put yourself in, dental students, then you graduate and then you’re back. You’re just a student, just [01:39:40] a dentist. Then you’re not the.

Payman Langroudi: Most junior dentist in the.

Shyun Patel: World. Yeah. And so then for me, it’s, [01:39:45] it’s, I can’t say I’m where I want to be in ten, 15 years time, but you can look [01:39:50] at trajectories and look at look, if I’m, you know, doing this in my second year, then [01:39:55] I might be doing this my fourth year. So people bloom at different times. But yeah, I mean, it’s cool [01:40:00] to have something so young and it’s scary because no one’s done what you’ve done. So it’s navigating a field [01:40:05] and no one really understands or conceptualises it. But like [01:40:10] I said, it comes down to talking to people, you know, someone’s some of the guys on this podcast an extraordinary [01:40:15] younger than me, um, doing these start-ups doing things that [01:40:20] and it’s easy to look at someone else, you know, maybe even yourself on this podcast, look someone else like they’re doing amazing [01:40:25] there. But oftentimes I look at other people think, you know, they’re killing it. I could dream to be this person or even the things [01:40:30] you’ve achieved. It’s and people don’t give themselves a lot of credit. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think there’s [01:40:35] a, like a downside to all of this insomuch [01:40:40] as chasing something? No, I mean, you’re a dental student, [01:40:45] man. You know, there’s another dental student in Liverpool right now who’s just going out, getting [01:40:50] drunk, kissing girls, whatever, whatever his thing is. Yeah, yeah. He hasn’t got the weight [01:40:55] of the world on his shoulders. Um, which is correct when you’re young. Sure [01:41:00] not to have the weight of the world on your shoulders. And by the way, when he qualifies, [01:41:05] he may suddenly turn into this tactical dude who wants to become a specialist endodontist or whatever [01:41:10] it is. Yeah, sure. But do you do you feel like, I mean, every every big endeavour comes with [01:41:15] sacrifice, right?

Shyun Patel: Lots of sacrifice.

Payman Langroudi: And we can say about like, if you put it in a bracket, [01:41:20] say a big endeavour sacrifice, right? All these extra hours [01:41:25] that you spend relationships.

Shyun Patel: Relationships, friendships, friendships.

Payman Langroudi: Birthdays you didn’t go to. [01:41:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No. And it’s true. And I think the funny with these, it’s like you think you work hard until you actually work [01:41:35] hard. I found that, you know, it’s it’s this, this phrase people [01:41:40] say is that you sacrifice time, you sacrifice time to get money to get time. Yeah. [01:41:45] Right. So, you know, um, and I played with this idea that, oh, I want to spend more time with my [01:41:50] family, so I’m gonna work really hard and have freedom and spend time my family and spend time my family now. So [01:41:55] it’s like, what? Um, and it’s a, it’s an interesting concept. And I [01:42:00] think contentment is something that is something that I really try and think about that I’m [01:42:05] extremely grateful for where I am, you know, from a health perspective for me, but [01:42:10] also, Like I said, for me, it’s, uh, the pursuit, you know, it’s [01:42:15] the pursuit. It’s the range of emotions I will feel getting to that point. When I get to the point, I want to feel something [01:42:20] else. So I might chase be more creative, I might chase friendships, [01:42:25] and I try and find the balance. You know, I don’t feel like I’m someone that, um, I’m [01:42:30] quite content with someone being more successful than me because I want to have an enriched life.

Shyun Patel: You know, I like music. [01:42:35] Uh, I mentioned I was in a band and I like running, like going to the gym. I like [01:42:40] going to the pub with my friends. But there is a point where when [01:42:45] you’re so invested in business and work, I [01:42:50] felt like this. I became very obsessed where I couldn’t turn, I couldn’t turn it off. And every time [01:42:55] I was with my parents, I could tell I was knowing them. And I was knowing my friends that I’m in the room, but I’m not really in the room. [01:43:00] And the cogs are turning and I’m checking my phone. I’m saying, one second Payman, I need to, uh. And it’s [01:43:05] hard because then it’s where does the contentment end? When? When are you content with life? Because not [01:43:10] being content, if not content with how you look, you go to the gym. If you’re content, you don’t do anything. So it’s like, where [01:43:15] is the balance? And that’s not an answer that I have right now. I could ask you the same question. Where does it go [01:43:20] with you to push for the next thing? Because the reason you go for the next thing is because to [01:43:25] some extent, you’re not happy with how things are right now. But then where does that.

Payman Langroudi: I find it hard, man, [01:43:30] this question of contentment and progress. I think it’s [01:43:35] bursts of each. Yeah, because they seem like they’re in opposition with each other. If I’m content, [01:43:40] why am I progressing? I’m content. Right. Sure. Um, there’s [01:43:45] another thing that when you, when, when you got your diagnosis. Yeah. That, you know, [01:43:50] that thing that spurred you.

Shyun Patel: Spurs you back into the.

Payman Langroudi: As you get, as you get older, it becomes a question [01:43:55] of how many years have I got left in this business? Yeah. And did [01:44:00] I, did I achieve, did I live up to my, to my potential?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting [01:44:05] question. Potential. Yeah. You know, I remember had Robbie Hughes. It was episode [01:44:10] six or something, and he was he was saying he’s an obsessive guy. [01:44:15] He’s one of the most obsessive guys I’ve come across. Yeah. Um, but what really drives [01:44:20] him is living up to his potential.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And I think Matthew McConaughey says in one speech is that I’m chasing [01:44:25] myself in ten years time. And when I get there, I’ll chase myself in ten years, I’m never going to catch, you [01:44:30] know, my hero or myself. But that’s the joy of it.

Payman Langroudi: But the reason I bring it up is I [01:44:35] look at I sit here, look at you and think, wow, man, at this age, so focussed, so [01:44:40] like interested and interesting and, you know, you’re gonna I feel [01:44:45] like from the business perspective, everything’s going to be just fine. There won’t be a problem.

Shyun Patel: But [01:44:50] that’s the fact that I’m not sure of that is what drives me.

Payman Langroudi: There won’t be a problem. Yeah. It depends on what [01:44:55] your goal is. If your goal is a thousand practices, then you may not get. Yeah. [01:45:00] You know what I mean? Who knows? Yeah. I just feel like from the business perspective, you you love it so much [01:45:05] that you will be successful. But the question of the question I asked about, what [01:45:10] are you missing out on? Yeah, you’re definitely missing out on something for sure. Now you’ve got this [01:45:15] rounded career, right? You’re in a band. I, if I were you, I would [01:45:20] just stop, smell the roses and think a bit more about that. I know you’re in your final year [01:45:25] now, but your your next 2 or 3 years. Yeah. After [01:45:30] that, you’re not really young anymore.

Shyun Patel: No, it’s it’s like you said, [01:45:35] the balance of. Yeah, you can go back to Spain when you’ve got [01:45:40] all these millions and. Yeah. But there’s something beautiful about going with your friends and staying in a hostel and being a bit [01:45:45] broke.

Payman Langroudi: That speech you made, I don’t know, like, is that was that original content or whatever?

Shyun Patel: Yeah, it.

Payman Langroudi: Was.

Shyun Patel: Beautiful. Yeah. [01:45:50] So, uh.

Payman Langroudi: To summarise.

Shyun Patel: So for.

Payman Langroudi: Someone who wasn’t.

Shyun Patel: There. So so I asked [01:45:55] at the beginning of the conference, what’s better, the journey or the destination? And [01:46:00] I said to people, the question I’ve been thinking about a lot and one day, you [01:46:05] know, people might have grandchildren. The grandchildren come running up to you and they’ll go, grandma, grandma, what was better? You had [01:46:10] this amazing life, this amazing career. What was better, the journey or the destination? And I told everyone [01:46:15] to pause and to take a look to their left and look to the right. And in the end, it’s not [01:46:20] about the journey, not the destination, but it’s about the company. For it’s not where we’re going, nor how we get [01:46:25] there, but the people we do it with. And I think this podcast and the, the philosophies [01:46:30] that this podcast shows that it’s not really where it’s going or how it got [01:46:35] the people and the conversations you have through the process is really what makes life enriching. And [01:46:40] I guess for me, it’s, it’s, it’s not about it’s not even where I’m going. I [01:46:45] think all these things I’m doing just open doors to meet new people, you know, whether [01:46:50] success allows me to go to the depths of India and meet, you [01:46:55] know, people there or, you know, through the process, I get to meet even. That’s one thing that [01:47:00] drives me as a dentist, you know, who, who’s going to sit in your chair and have such interesting conversations and I.

Payman Langroudi: Miss [01:47:05] the thing I miss the most about being a dentist.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think.

Shyun Patel: When it comes back to you, what you said about why, why, why, why, [01:47:10] why the one why that I can’t answer. The one why that I don’t have a why to is I [01:47:15] genuinely like on my like hand and heart. I love talking to people. I get [01:47:20] such a thrill. I love it, I talk too much, I love it, it’s, uh, it’s. And I can’t tell you why. [01:47:25] It’s just love the conversation, love feeling. And [01:47:30] I think that’s why I like films, you know, someone talks to you and they take you on. And I was like, what do we like to to have [01:47:35] enlightened run a podcast? I’m hearing you speak and you’ve got a son like, yeah, I never thought about life like that. And it just [01:47:40] enriches my experience of, of life.

Payman Langroudi: What’s been the biggest mistake you’ve made?

Shyun Patel: The [01:47:45] biggest mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Clinically.

Shyun Patel: First. Sure.

Payman Langroudi: Clinically [01:47:50] be perforated.

Shyun Patel: I have perforated. Yeah, I [01:47:55] have perforated.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a moment isn’t it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. It’s your heart drops. You know.

Payman Langroudi: I have, I have. [01:48:00]

Shyun Patel: But the first time is.

Payman Langroudi: When the blood doesn’t stop at all.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, yeah. I remember the [01:48:05] first time I took out a tooth, uh, fractured it. That was, uh, that was definitely something. [01:48:10] I remember it really, really funny one. I think it was my, my second patient, Liverpool [01:48:15] was really good. My second patient ever had. We had patients, we see patients from first year. And [01:48:20] I remember this one time vividly. Um, I [01:48:25] had a patient and he had, he had two first names. So for the sake of argument, let’s [01:48:30] call him.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Harry Tom.

Shyun Patel: Like Steven Adams, Steven Steven Adams, [01:48:35] right? His name is Steven Adams. And I go, oh yeah, Steven Adams. Come to the Steven, Steven. [01:48:40] Mr. Steven Adams and I realised about a month in that his name was Adam Stevens. [01:48:45]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Shyun Patel: So that was that was one thing. Um I’ve had, I’ve had, you know, [01:48:50] you know, we know each other in Liverpool, so you see some stuff. Mhm. Um but [01:48:55] yeah, clinically I’ve been pretty, pretty sound. But yeah. Breaking routes um exposing [01:49:00] popes. All of that stuff. And, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Which aspect [01:49:05] of dentistry do you like the most at the moment?

Shyun Patel: Do you know what, general? I really enjoy everything in dentistry, but [01:49:10] the thing that sparks excitement to me, which is, you know, ironic because I’ve just talked about breaking roots, [01:49:15] is oral surgery. I really like oral surgery. Don’t know if it’s because it’s more scarce than other things. [01:49:20] And for me at Liverpool Dental School, when I just take it out, I just feel like.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever cut [01:49:25] a flap?

Shyun Patel: I’ve not done that yet, but I’m grateful to be a [01:49:30] shameless A.D. rep plug. Um, and good friends with like Amit. We [01:49:35] had George at the conference as well. Manraj Rickey So I’ve gone to like ag events where they do mainly [01:49:40] focus on implants and peri dental school is very different. [01:49:45] I don’t know what to say to you. Periodontics is very different. Perio post post-grad and [01:49:50] so much more interesting. So oral surgery, perio implants [01:49:55] went to Shadow Evo not so long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, how’d you find that?

Shyun Patel: I loved it. I really.

Payman Langroudi: Loved it. [01:50:00]

Shyun Patel: No, um.

Payman Langroudi: Just on their program.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. Yeah. No, I know, I did it. I think he, um. [01:50:05] I’d spoken to him about it. Um, but I spoke, I was with a guy called Amar [01:50:10] who also went to my school maybe 15 years before me. And it [01:50:15] was just for me, you know, getting people out of pain. It’s almost a superpower, right? It’s a [01:50:20] superpower that we have that we have a responsibility to do. And there’s a multitude of ways in which we get people out of pain. But [01:50:25] one of the ways is, you know, unfortunately or fortunately, taking out teeth. Yeah. Now, if you [01:50:30] have longitudinal care with a patient, you should take out the teeth and socket. But, but I think something about fixing [01:50:35] that gap with a, with a prosthetic. And that’s where kind of the, the close bracket [01:50:40] of that treatment, it kind of almost feel like when I take a tooth out and the happy and they go away, I almost want to [01:50:45] close that gap. Yeah. And I feel like watching them do full arch implants and just [01:50:50] they’re so skilled and their workflow was amazing. Just set a fire.

Payman Langroudi: And the work is very [01:50:55] important work, you know, like, like giving someone a set of teeth. Yeah. Fix teeth. Yeah. [01:51:00] Change their life. Yeah. Change their life. You understand? Like it’s hard to imagine [01:51:05] for people like you and me. Sure. What it’s like not to have any teeth. Yeah. But. But for [01:51:10] a second, for sure. Go there. Yeah. Imagine. Teeth. Yeah. Like that. [01:51:15] I can’t eat, I can’t kiss, I can’t, you know, these are fundamental. [01:51:20] Even fall in love. Who’s gonna fall in love with the person with no teeth?

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I can’t fall in love. Like, these [01:51:25] are major issues in life.

Shyun Patel: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so, like, the great thing about Implantology [01:51:30] is it’s serious work. Number one, the work itself is serious, but it’s serious consequences [01:51:35] is in good consequences for sure.

Shyun Patel: And I think the fact that.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re into it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. [01:51:40]

Payman Langroudi: Jump in man. Um, do you think you’re going to be a proper working dentist or have you one of these guys who wants [01:51:45] not to be?

Shyun Patel: You know.

Payman Langroudi: What?

Shyun Patel: From the beginning, I’ll be hand on heart. I love [01:51:50] clinical dentistry, and it’s all good and fine and dandy doing all these other projects [01:51:55] and businesses, but it’s almost like the business aspect of it. So I think people make decisions [01:52:00] a lot on financial. I think people make financial decisions. Most people. I want to do cosmetic dentistry. [01:52:05] Yeah, I like it. But I thought about, I don’t know, peds as well, but I went with it because equal. [01:52:10] But this has paid better. Yeah. A lot of people do that.

Payman Langroudi: I hear that a lot.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. I don’t want finances [01:52:15] to ever be affecting the choice of something I’m passionate about. And so the business [01:52:20] side of it is just keeping me afloat, paying for me to live the business, do the business things. And [01:52:25] that’s why businesses are there. I have a passion for that. But dentistry, I want to think, I want to do implant if I [01:52:30] didn’t get paid.

Payman Langroudi: Like a hobby.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. If I didn’t get paid for it, I genuinely am fulfilled from the work I genuinely fulfilled from [01:52:35] going there and doing dentistry. And of course you can graduate and you don’t know what you don’t know. So I don’t be naive [01:52:40] and say, yeah, I’m going to do this and streamline it and I’ll come back to you. And I’m an orthodontist. Who knows? Um, but [01:52:45] yeah, right now that that’s.

Payman Langroudi: My advice is go like, you know, my advice is opposite [01:52:50] to all your friends, your mentors advice is to, yeah.

Shyun Patel: Tell me, tell me.

Payman Langroudi: Most people say try [01:52:55] lots of things. Decide. Find out what you love and chase that. I’m like, pick [01:53:00] anything.

Shyun Patel: And then just.

Payman Langroudi: Go and get really good at it and you’ll end up loving it.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:53:05] That’s very true as well. I think the hardest thing in life is knowing what you want to do and then taking the steps. [01:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, within dentistry, like if you had some outsider, you know, someone had nothing to [01:53:15] do with our world. Yeah. And he was listening to you and he was like, oh, you can’t make up your mind whether you’re going to focus [01:53:20] on gums or root canals or, or whatever. You know, like restorative [01:53:25] or. Yeah. Can’t make up your mind on that outside of like, what the hell, like get good [01:53:30] at any of them.

Shyun Patel: Do you know what? Even even for me, I like I like general dentistry. I know, I [01:53:35] know, I know, um, maybe a lot of young people I’ve heard speak, like have a speciality. I [01:53:40] like general, I love, I love it and you know what? Even just.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the thing to get really good at. [01:53:45]

Shyun Patel: As well. I’ll tell you one thing as well. Even if I was to have, you know, whatever success in business, [01:53:50] I, I do like the. And I’ve not lived it. So people are probably listening to this like, no, get out. I [01:53:55] like the hustle and bustle of like NHS dentistry. I want to I, [01:54:00] and I think it’s, I think some.

Payman Langroudi: People like it, some people.

Shyun Patel: Like it. I want to build foundations.

Payman Langroudi: Some people like the fast moving [01:54:05] nature of it.

Shyun Patel: I’m not saying forever. I’m not saying forever.

Payman Langroudi: But some people love the fact, the consequences a little bit [01:54:10] less because your patient hasn’t really properly paid for it.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, but I’m not one of those.

Payman Langroudi: Some people like the fact that it gives [01:54:15] you lots of experience very quickly. Yeah. That’s that’s where you’re when you [01:54:20] ask your teachers, they’ll say this. They say, go do something, you know, get your miles in. Yeah. It’s true. [01:54:25] Yeah. Um, but I don’t, I wasn’t into it at all. [01:54:30] I hated it, I hated it. I remember in f d on the first day of f d when they said, [01:54:35] oh this is what, and it was firstly the practice itself, um, [01:54:40] didn’t make me.

Shyun Patel: I know there’s lots of red tape and I know there’s lots to it, but I wonder if [01:54:45] the financial implications. And I know there’s a multitude of maybe things that people want. But if financial [01:54:50] finances were there, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I’m wrong about this. Yeah, it’s just [01:54:55] my own bias. Yeah. Yeah. But a patient is a patient. Yeah. An NHS [01:55:00] patient needs care.

Shyun Patel: Of course.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so if you’re involved in the care of that NHS patient, [01:55:05] you know, that’s dentistry. Sure. Yeah. I’m pissed off with third party telling me [01:55:10] what to do.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s between me and the patient. I understand patient’s got a problem. I’m the dentist. I don’t [01:55:15] want any third party telling me what to do. Sure. That’s what really annoys me the most about it.

Shyun Patel: And I think there’s [01:55:20] so much to it. And that’s a conversation we’re having. You know, this three year tie in and all [01:55:25] these things. Because when you’re with the PDSA, you go to these meetings and they have these conversations. [01:55:30] It’s interesting. I don’t know where the industry is going to be for young people.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you’re going to be one of these DSO types? Would [01:55:35] you like to? Would you like to have multiple practices?

Shyun Patel: I would like to yeah. And it’s not it’s, [01:55:40] uh, I don’t come here thinking that I [01:55:45] can I’m better or I know something more than anyone else, But in my head, I think [01:55:50] you have to believe you can do it. I always say, if you think you’re going to succeed, you might not necessarily succeed. You’re gonna [01:55:55] fail. You’re 100% fail. And and people. My mum always tells me, don’t set expectations. [01:56:00] Expectations so high. You know, you’re gonna be crushed when you don’t get it. And I always say, you know, if you shoot [01:56:05] for the stars, in worst case, you land on the moon.

Payman Langroudi: No, I know, but but like, [01:56:10] some people wouldn’t see multiple practices as the stars.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, sure.

Payman Langroudi: I think for me, [01:56:15] it’s a particular character.

Shyun Patel: For me, I want that because I want to have, um, if [01:56:20] I’m going to go into details more, look, you can run a [01:56:25] single practice in a certain area and a certain demographic with a certain amount of stuff a certain way. Okay. And [01:56:30] for me, I want to have impact. Remember, my goal is to have as much impact. And there’s different [01:56:35] ways you can create a product technology. But for me, you know, having a group practices and impacting dentists, [01:56:40] impacting their day to day, impacting patients, having their own. But if I have one practice run a certain way [01:56:45] and I go Payman run a practice, you go. Well, you don’t know that this is a very specific circumstances. [01:56:50] If I have a practice in Norwich and I practice in London, I practice in Newcastle and I practice in Spain [01:56:55] and they’re all happy, they’re all doing well and they’re all slightly maybe this maybe this kid is [01:57:00] way of and I don’t know this, you know, I could be completely wrong. Maybe the way that he does things works [01:57:05] to some extent. And maybe that’s a selfish thing, like a selfish thing. But I really [01:57:10] want people to have a good experience day to day, because the people [01:57:15] that work for you, they come in and little things.

Payman Langroudi: But, but but, but the, the, let’s say [01:57:20] the vast majority of dentists who start a practice or work in a practice, own [01:57:25] a practice, own one. Mhm. Yeah. One. Sure. And it’s [01:57:30] much easier having a happy workplace in one practice.

Shyun Patel: Sure. [01:57:35]

Payman Langroudi: Than in ten. Sure. Like a much, much, much easier.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I can imagine that.

Payman Langroudi: So so [01:57:40] if your goal is to have a happy workplace.

Shyun Patel: My goal is to my main goal is to impact as many patients [01:57:45] as possible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But then impact, I used to say this when I was your age. Yeah. Um, I [01:57:50] hate dentistry for that reason. What my impact is going to be. Yeah. This room and [01:57:55] the people. But impact is as much about depth than it is about breadth. [01:58:00]

Shyun Patel: Sure. And I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult.

Shyun Patel: Needle. That’s the balance, right.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult needle to dance on. Yeah. [01:58:05] But you know impact. All right. 10,000 people will download this podcast. [01:58:10] Yeah. Impact. Yeah. Is that is that enough or do you want [01:58:15] sponsorship for this podcast? Is that impact? Sure. Yeah. It’s just a funny thing.

Shyun Patel: How do you find [01:58:20] it? Scaling versus keeping quality because that’s always the balance.

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s everything’s hard, man. Everything’s [01:58:25] hard. Believe you me. Like a hundred practices. Yeah. All working. [01:58:30]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a massively difficult thing to pull off massively. We got to, I [01:58:35] don’t know, 29 employees. I remember it was that’s where it was at 29 employees. [01:58:40] We had a massive situation with employees. Yeah. Like someone was bullying some. Some [01:58:45] manager was bullying a bunch of people that we had no idea about. We didn’t know. [01:58:50] Yeah. Yeah. 29.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the same building. Yeah. Yeah. Um, [01:58:55] so, so, so my point is it gets harder and harder and harder. Now you’re saying you’re up for hard [01:59:00] things. Great. Yeah. But but you.

Shyun Patel: Have to be aware, I think I think that’s the thing. No, no, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s understanding [01:59:05] like the it’s important that the driving force behind the. [01:59:10]

Shyun Patel: Decision.

Payman Langroudi: That you’re after.

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is based on something that actually [01:59:15] makes a difference because, you know, like sometimes it’s convenient for it to be, I want to make my parents [01:59:20] proud. Yeah. But your parents are proud.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. No, that’s not the driving factor into the practices, I think. [01:59:25] Look, like you said, you can.

Payman Langroudi: Impact is huge.

Shyun Patel: Yeah. And there’s different ways of making impact. There’s [01:59:30] there’s different ways we all make impact.

Payman Langroudi: I’m still trying to make it.

Shyun Patel: Clinicians clinicians make him back. Clinicians make him back, you know. [01:59:35] Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you know, one of the things that dentistry does have that a lot of professions don’t is [01:59:40] that sort of Heartfelt thank you from a patient. Yeah, [01:59:45] you’d be amazed the number of professions that don’t have that. Yeah, yeah. Like if your lawyer does a great job [01:59:50] for you, sometimes your accountant does a great job for you. It’s not it’s not the same heartfelt. Thank [01:59:55] you. Yeah. And so what I’m saying is some of some of the golden bits about being a dentist. Yeah. [02:00:00] Are less impactful than you might realise. Yeah. And so impact [02:00:05] on one person. One person. Sure. Deep impact on one person [02:00:10] might be more important than shallow impact on a thousand.

Shyun Patel: And that’s why I’ll never give up clinical [02:00:15] dentistry. Yeah. Because I think there’s different impact you get. People say like, what makes you happy? It’s not [02:00:20] one thing. It’s not one thing that makes you happy. There’s some things on a really high frequency that make [02:00:25] you happy. Some things like going on a walk make you happy. Yeah. And so for me, like.

Payman Langroudi: For me, depth [02:00:30] of impact has become much more interesting to me than breadth of impact as I’ve gotten older. [02:00:35]

Shyun Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When you’re young, you just feel like, oh.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Practice [02:00:40] in every city in the world.

Shyun Patel: And I think that as you get as I get older, you know, where I start [02:00:45] and where I end may not be because you learn things and you change. I’m not, I’ve [02:00:50] got, I’ve got, I think I’ve got a good balance of being focussed, but also being open that the [02:00:55] thing I think is the right thing to do may not be the right thing to do. Yeah. And I have one conversation that could change that or I could [02:01:00] start this. This is not really what I wanted. This isn’t worth it. This isn’t the goal. And then [02:01:05] you change. And being adaptable, I think they say, I think they said this century the best skill [02:01:10] to have is to be adaptable. Things change so quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Darwin.

Shyun Patel: Right? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about what stands [02:01:15] out as the best lecture you’ve been to? Like what comes to mind if I say what’s a lecture that stands [02:01:20] out?

Shyun Patel: Do you know what I think? Just [02:01:25] something that someone said in the lecture. So, uh, Christian Joshi did a lecture. It [02:01:30] was in a clinical lecture at the dentistry show. And he said something. He goes, you can’t connect the [02:01:35] dots forward. You can only connect them backwards.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: That’s true. And it really just made me think, [02:01:40] you know what? I’m sitting here trying to plan doing this, this, this. So this is gonna be, I don’t know, all I can do is [02:01:45] sit here now and be like, that happens. I can meet this person. So this could happen. And so they say [02:01:50] what life can only be live forward, but only make sense backwards. And the way he just emulated that really just made me think, [02:01:55] you know, yeah, plan. But also you don’t know what’s going to happen. [02:02:00] You just sometimes have to go with the flow.

Payman Langroudi: What about.

Shyun Patel: Clinical. Clinical I would say. Manraj [02:02:05] Kalsi and Ricky Bhopale I [02:02:10] went to the a d I went to like a the road show and [02:02:15] just some of the ways they were talking about implants. And for me, it’s interesting that, [02:02:20] um, I, that for me was like really, really [02:02:25] informative. It’s a whole day hands on, but some of the stuff they were talking about, some things they could do, some things I didn’t know were possible. [02:02:30] And then that partnered with my experience at Evo where it wasn’t really a lecture, but I thought the whole day was kind of a lecture learning [02:02:35] experience. Um, really for me stood up.

Payman Langroudi: What about like, what’s your favourite resource? [02:02:40] Like it could be anything. It could be a book, it could be a website. It could be a [02:02:45] Instagram page.

Shyun Patel: Um. I’d say [02:02:50] Instagram in general is a, is a big resource. And I’d say as [02:02:55] much as I want to pinpoint it to, to one thing, uh, the multitude of different, different Instagrams, [02:03:00] um, some of the, you know, I look at some guys in, [02:03:05] in London or America really good at marketing. Some guys have really good clinical cases here. Um, I [02:03:10] think, yeah, there’s no, there’s no specific Instagram page, but the more [02:03:15] of them all together and then, you know, little things like, um, revising for exams [02:03:20] and also like, I know it sounds quite cliche, but the BSP and all these guidelines you can [02:03:25] read and just stay on top of them and yeah, standard resources.

Payman Langroudi: And [02:03:30] what would you say is your hero?

Shyun Patel: My hero. Um, [02:03:35] I’d probably say my hero is my dad. I [02:03:40] said, my dad’s my hero because. [02:03:45] From [02:03:50] achieving success, but coming from a humble background made me realise that no [02:03:55] matter where you go, who you become, where you come from, you should always, like, stay [02:04:00] grounded. He’s values people. He [02:04:05] always puts people first, even at the detriment of himself, which, you know, there’s a healthy balance. And I think [02:04:10] just having that humility in life, it’s so easy, especially not to get caught up in [02:04:15] noise and stuff. And I always say, you know, you [02:04:20] can go around dental school and it’s great. And people say shine, they shine that. But when I come home to my friends, [02:04:25] some of them are tradies, some of them are lawyers, some of them are unemployed. Go [02:04:30] home to the same pub, and in that pub we’re all we’re all the same. We’re all just a bunch of losers. Just [02:04:35] sat with our pint in our jackets and old friends. Yeah. And it’s just like, you know what? No matter what, I always want to [02:04:40] have those core values of what’s important in life, what’s important in my. Why did I choose to do dentistry? [02:04:45] Why not choose to do business? You know, keep in sight of the core values and not getting [02:04:50] caught up because when you’re young, when I was in first year, you can get caught up in university and things, but as I got older, I think [02:04:55] they were important things in life. My dad reiterates to me, you know, you’ve done all the successful. No, we’re just gonna, [02:05:00] you know, my mum as well. My mom’s are always six to a bag, which won’t like me saying this, but she’ll freeze milk, [02:05:05] you know, you know, my parents doing okay, but because it’s, you know, we can’t waste food. [02:05:10] And these are important, right? You just you can’t just waste life, not be grateful [02:05:15] for little things and recycle clothes and do your part for the community. These things are important. [02:05:20] So I think, yeah, my dad especially makes sure that I stay on the straight [02:05:25] and narrow.

Payman Langroudi: That’s nice. My buddy. Yeah. Fantasy dinner party, three guests. Who you got. [02:05:30]

Shyun Patel: First I’m going to say Sam Altman. [02:05:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think we like him. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Would you like the product?

Shyun Patel: I like [02:05:40] the product, but I want to know, like I said, what mine take what? What mind? Um, [02:05:45] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Y Combinator.

Shyun Patel: Yes yes yes yes [02:05:50] yes. And just talk to him about his story, how [02:05:55] he thinks, how he got to where he is and just how he sees the future going. Because I think [02:06:00] AI is really shaping not just like things, but education and how we process education, information, [02:06:05] everything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Shyun Patel: Uh, then second to that. Okay. [02:06:10] So let’s take Sam Altman as someone that’s going to represent my future, someone that’s going to represent [02:06:15] my past. I’d say someone like, uh, Marcus Aurelius, right?

Payman Langroudi: The stoic. [02:06:20]

Shyun Patel: Yeah, the stoic principles of life. And one thing, Marcus, I like touching on the, [02:06:25] the last point about my dad is that he had a slave. Have you heard this? Yeah. The slave that he used [02:06:30] to ride on his chariot. And, he was a Roman emperor. Everyone used to like, you know, his head get massive and, you know, like [02:06:35] hubris. You know, the thing that makes you great could also kill you. And he had a slave that sit behind him in his chariot, and [02:06:40] he’d whisper to him, um, you’re just a man. You’re just a man. And I [02:06:45] quite like that. And I think, you know, sometimes just you’ve got to realise, you know, you just had to be yourself. [02:06:50] But I’m just a just a kid, you know, I’m just figuring it out. I’m not. Nothing more. Nothing less good on the stream. [02:06:55] No, no.

Payman Langroudi: You were a popular kid for a couple of days after the essay.

Shyun Patel: Yeah, but, you know, you [02:07:00] know what? It’s just my friends are the same friends. You know, everyone. Everyone. Everyone can be friends. Um. [02:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: And who’s the third?

Shyun Patel: The third would be da [02:07:10] Vinci. Oh, yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Just the, the different things he invented.

Shyun Patel: Just [02:07:15] just I don’t like being put in a box. And, you know, he did anatomy and art and science, and I thought [02:07:20] he pushed limits on all sides and I thought someone else could do it. Why couldn’t I do it? How [02:07:25] did he balance the three? And, uh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, since since you are [02:07:30] at that age and, you know, we had this series going on future Leaders [02:07:35] kind of series. Nice. Three years time. If everything went [02:07:40] perfectly for you, what would it look like? Or if it a bit longer? Five [02:07:45] years time.

Shyun Patel: Five years time? No, I don’t [02:07:50] want to jump too far to think, but I, I would hope that I’m, you know, still [02:07:55] working five six days. I. Would [02:08:00] hope to have a couple clinics at that point [02:08:05] and just enjoying life, but finding the understanding that I’m content where [02:08:10] I’m at and that everything I’m doing is for the right reasons and not [02:08:15] because I’m chasing some unattainable goal and getting lost in it. So yeah, I think enjoying [02:08:20] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Clinics.

Shyun Patel: Three. We’ll [02:08:25] see. Maybe I’ll leave my. I’ll probably eat my words. Who knows? [02:08:30] I’ll have some clarity and go down a different route. But yeah, that’s I think.

Payman Langroudi: Are you Underpromising and Overdelivering? Is [02:08:35] that is that the.

Shyun Patel: I’m being extremely delusional based off nothing. So we’ll see. Uh, [02:08:40] not.

Payman Langroudi: That it’s a joke to have two clinics in five years out. Not that it’s a joke, but I just feel like you’re [02:08:45] going to be accelerated a little bit.

Shyun Patel: We’ll have to see. You know, I’ll have to believe it for it to happen. [02:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Well, I’ve had a really interesting time.

Shyun Patel: Talking to you. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been an [02:08:55] easy, easy conversation.

Shyun Patel: It’s been a good two hours.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [02:09:00] really been simple. I really appreciate I learned a lot my buddy. I learned a lot. Thank you.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening guys. [02:09:05] Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit subscribe [02:09:10] in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [02:09:15] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star [02:09:20] rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [02:09:25] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. [00:00:40] The podcast where you get to go one on one [00:00:45] with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Adrian Dray and Kal Harron, both [00:01:00] from stack onto the podcast. Good to have you guys, man.

Adrian Dray: Thanks ever so much. It’s [00:01:05] good to be here.

Kautham Haran: Thanks for having us.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian was on a previous episode. I can’t remember [00:01:10] which number that was, but, um, you can just search in the Dental Leaders, um, feed [00:01:15] and find that long, brilliant episode. I love that episode with Prav. Yeah. [00:01:20] Um. I’ve never been on an episode of Dental. Leaders. [00:01:25] But good to have you tell me, both of you, how did you find k stack [00:01:30] or how did K stack find you?

Kautham Haran: Adrian I think your journey with stack starts a lot longer [00:01:35] than mine. So yeah, probably best to start with you.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I think, I think to give some context, [00:01:40] you know, the, the question is why did you [00:01:45] give up a very comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:01:50] to join a US company brand new to the UK in [00:01:55] dentistry that is known for really disliking change, right? [00:02:00] I think that’s the the thing because it seems on paper madness [00:02:05] and a massive gamble and, and it was and it, it the decision happened [00:02:10] in around 2023. But actually [00:02:15] where this started brewing happened when I came out of hospital with [00:02:20] Covid in 2021. So somewhere in the Dental community, um, [00:02:25] I got Covid really bad hospital bad. You’re going to die tonight bad. Um, [00:02:30] and my joke is spoiler alert, I didn’t, you know, but the, the, [00:02:35] the, um, uh, but the thing the reality was, is that [00:02:40] I had six months previous to that had given up my job at my dentist, thrown [00:02:45] all of my savings into setting up.

Payman Langroudi: A data, data.

Adrian Dray: Data protection.

Payman Langroudi: Officer. Yeah. [00:02:50] My dentist.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. And I thought, I’m going to help others practices and smaller groups. And I put, I moved house [00:02:55] and I put all of my investment, I had all of this savings and invested [00:03:00] into the business and all of this, uh, uh, business [00:03:05] lined up. And then after I came out of Covid in hospital, I’m in a wheelchair [00:03:10] and I can’t like, I can’t talk for more than ten minutes needing, needing to lie down [00:03:15] because my lungs are shot.

Payman Langroudi: They put you on a ventilator.

Adrian Dray: I was so close. They basically washed me down and said, either [00:03:20] going into ventilator tonight or you’re dying, right? It was sort of black and white as that. [00:03:25] So I thought, look, I want to I want to stay in dentistry. I can’t do GDPR. [00:03:30] Is there something else that I can do? And I was looking at the software scene, and I was noticing [00:03:35] there was a lot of talk about CRMs and lead management systems, but there wasn’t much that was out [00:03:40] there. And I found one which was a white label product. Now you [00:03:45] and I know what white label it is, and I realised not a lot in dentistry. No, it’s where you’ve got a [00:03:50] off.

Payman Langroudi: The shelf.

Adrian Dray: Off the shelf products, which you can then put a wrapper on where you can say [00:03:55] Adrian Dres lead management system or whatever it might be, but it’s the same system that’s being [00:04:00] used by someone else in veterinary or estate agents or whatever it might be. So [00:04:05] I thought, well, what I’ll do is I’ll, I’ll start building on this and help the community. [00:04:10] And I was got quite far with it. And then an individual in dentistry [00:04:15] who’s got a bit of a community came, came and found out about it and came to me and goes, I [00:04:20] want to get in on this. I want to help you push this out. And I was like, okay, yeah. Thank you. That sounds [00:04:25] really good. We’re great to leverage your your community. And it was just relentless day after day when you bring it out, when you [00:04:30] bring it out. And like, I nearly died like a few weeks ago, you know, can you just give me a chance? [00:04:35] And it got to the point where he wore me down so much, right? It became this sort of like, friend, [00:04:40] I’ll help you. Um, and then just went to this bully real bullish. And I [00:04:45] just got, you know what, here’s the name of the system. You take it, you do what you want. And [00:04:50] he grew a business out of it. And this software was going everywhere. As [00:04:55] more and more people were signing up, I’m watching my bank balance just come down and down and down. Right?

Payman Langroudi: What [00:05:00] was the emotion?

Adrian Dray: I was very angry at the time.

Payman Langroudi: Angry [00:05:05] at yourself. Because you gave him, I gave him.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [00:05:10] I think I probably should have stood up for myself more, more. Um, and [00:05:15] I thought, this is this is awful. And I remember the end of that year, I was looking at my bank account. [00:05:20] I had like nothing in there. And like, this is going to really tough. Thankfully, I was living with my [00:05:25] mum at the time. And then all of a sudden, uh, this company out in the US who [00:05:30] I’d met previously wanted me to be their spokesperson because now I can talk once, [00:05:35] be their spokesperson on podcasts. I’ve talked about data security and they’re going to pay me like three grand a month.

Payman Langroudi: Just [00:05:40] cares that.

Adrian Dray: It wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, this wasn’t.

Adrian Dray: Exactly on its competitors.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [00:05:45]

Adrian Dray: And, uh, and then we just did this and.

Payman Langroudi: They found you.

Adrian Dray: They found me, they paid. I didn’t [00:05:50] go on one podcast, not one, right? They just they never set them up. Um and [00:05:55] but that helped me just to get back on my feet. And then I went, then I went into banking. Right. And I just kept my foot in [00:06:00] dentistry, kept my foot in dentistry. But I, I see in the groups and I saw then that [00:06:05] this product that was being used, this white label product, people were finding out it was white [00:06:10] labelled. And then they’re saying, well, why aren’t we just going straight to the company and just do it ourselves, [00:06:15] which they started to do. So the individual who sort of ripped off this idea, um, [00:06:20] he then scrambled, had to build his own product. And it was at that time I [00:06:25] realised, I know that building your own product is really hard. It’s [00:06:30] really tough to get it right. You can say made for dentists by dentists all the livelong [00:06:35] day. But if it doesn’t work right and it’s not continuously innovated, it’s there.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:06:40] you feel like you dodged a bullet in a way, because.

Adrian Dray: I feel like I dodged and learned a massive lesson that [00:06:45] if I did want to get into the software game, and it’s even makes even more sense now, [00:06:50] AI is the way it is that you need to have a big team behind you. [00:06:55] There has to be a huge vision that’s there because you know we have all something in common. [00:07:00] We deeply love dentistry. We love helping dental practice owners in [00:07:05] multiple ways. Some ways, I know Payman that you have done that. No one knows, right? Secretly have helped people [00:07:10] and I’ve done the same, done the same thing. And you, you [00:07:15] need to make sure that what you are bringing in, maybe it won’t be so great to begin with, but you’re not [00:07:20] you’re not putting people in a really bad position and you are really [00:07:25] fighting for and championing them. So now comes to the care stack bit in [00:07:30] 2022, I think it was late [00:07:35] 2022. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The post Covid boom, the post-COVID boom.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a beautiful [00:07:40] era.

Adrian Dray: Actually, it’s 2023 now. I’m thinking of it. Yeah. It was. [00:07:45] When did you join us?

Kautham Haran: 2020 424 yeah.

Adrian Dray: It was 2023. So [00:07:50] 2023, I, um, I get this message from a mutual friend, a mutual, [00:07:55] a mutual friend, someone from the US who said there’s a, there’s a VP from [00:08:00] Straumann and the CEO of a cloud based practice management [00:08:05] system that’s coming to the UK are going to be in London on the weekend, and [00:08:10] the CEO wants ten dentists to be around a table to [00:08:15] show them this product, this cloud based practice management system. And [00:08:20] can you help me get those ten dentists? I’ll make it worth your while. And I said, [00:08:25] don’t pay me. I just want to be in the room. I want to be in the room. Right. [00:08:30] Um, because I have my background being a data protection [00:08:35] officer at my dentist, I’ve seen all these software providers, right, come to me [00:08:40] and they go, oh, we’re 100% GDPR compliant. You know, it’s like not even the ICO is 100% [00:08:45] GDPR compliant. Right? So I’m just, I’m used to all these kind of crappy answers and stuff. Like, I want to see [00:08:50] what these guys have got. I was, I was just intrigued by it. Yeah. And I sat inside their presentation [00:08:55] and I watched the faces of the other, the other dentists around the table. [00:09:00] And they were really intrigued. And I thought, there’s something here.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:09:05] so and did you get out of your compliance brain because, okay, compliance [00:09:10] is 1/20 of the product. Yeah. At that point, did you start thinking [00:09:15] product rather than how compliant is this product?

Adrian Dray: It’s a very good question [00:09:20] because my initial thought was, if I’m going to monetise this relationship, [00:09:25] I might be able to help with their GDPR position. When I saw that this this product [00:09:30] and the features it has available could help grow practices, well, [00:09:35] compliance and growth are like they repel each other, right? So [00:09:40] I’m like, if I’m going to help them, the GDPR bit is going right to one side, right. And I’m [00:09:45] just going to look at the growth side of things. Um, and that was [00:09:50] certainly that is the bit that inspired me. So I said to Abby, the CEO, and [00:09:55] for anyone who’s met Abby, he is a peculiar character. He’s a lovely [00:10:00] bloke. Um, uh, but he’s.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of.

Adrian Dray: Just very. And you never forget [00:10:05] the first time you meet Abby. Yeah. Right. Um, and we ended up having. We haven’t having [00:10:10] having a double shot of Laphroaig right at the end of this meeting. And I remember him [00:10:15] just putting his hand on my shoulder. He goes, Adrian, I think we’re going to be working with each other somehow if we [00:10:20] launch this in the UK. So I did about ten months worth of um, consultancy [00:10:25] with them for free. Right. Just to see how far they would get. And [00:10:30] that’s, that’s, that’s when, that’s when we launched, we took our first practices live and, uh, [00:10:35] it was crazy. There were moments where I just thought, why on earth [00:10:40] did I give up my comfortable, well-paying job in banking [00:10:45] because I was experiencing stressful moments [00:10:50] of a Start-Up, which I’ve never been in. I’ve never felt before. Um, [00:10:55] and we got through and, and those first three months, but it was clear. [00:11:00] It was clear at that point, I’m more on the demand generation, the creative [00:11:05] side. I am not good at operations. I can I can autosum [00:11:10] in Excel. That’s the limit of my Excel abilities.

Kautham Haran: Considering [00:11:15] you called it Autosum, I can tell. Is it not called that? What’s it called? It’s just called [00:11:20] sum. Is it a proper.

Payman Langroudi: Proper techie.

Kautham Haran: There.

Adrian Dray: Um, and then, you know, enters [00:11:25] enters Cal in into this as we’re starting to build our name, we’re starting to bring practices [00:11:30] on. And, you know, we lose one of our very first practices is, oh my goodness, what’s going on? [00:11:35] Um, and then we, we hear about, we hear about Cal. So we [00:11:40] hear about Cal working at one of the practices, one of the early practices that we take on, and this is early [00:11:45] 2020 for.

Payman Langroudi: Working at the practice.

Kautham Haran: Well, I was it was actually a friend’s practice. So [00:11:50] two of my they were my, you know, my best man at my wedding. They’re both, um, [00:11:55] dentists. They both have their own practices in London and um, I’ve, I’ve [00:12:00] listened to them talk about teeth since I think I was about 13 years old. You can imagine that dinner, there’s three of us [00:12:05] there and all they’re talking about is teeth because they’re dentists, they love their passion. And that’s what they’re that’s what they’re into. Me, [00:12:10] myself, I’ve got a fintech background. So straight out of university, co-founded a [00:12:15] peer to peer invoice finance company. Um, I did that for about eight years. So I’ve always been in that [00:12:20] Start-Up mode, not really corporate and understanding it from a kind of different viewpoint. [00:12:25] What did you study? I did maths and economics at university. We spun out of the [00:12:30] University of Warwick’s incubator program, so even they had belief in our business and things like that. [00:12:35] So.

Payman Langroudi: So in university you started this.

Kautham Haran: So in our final year, so didn’t do the kind of traditional [00:12:40] route that lots of people off our course normally do going into banking and those kind of things. So slightly different and enjoyed [00:12:45] that start up thrill. And I think, you know, like many dentists and business [00:12:50] owners here, you know, having your own Start-Up and doing it in that manner, the lows [00:12:55] are incredibly low, the highs are high. But bloody hell, when you’re sat there thinking, how am I going to pay staff? [00:13:00] And you know, those staff have mortgages, rent and stuff like this. You really do realise, you know [00:13:05] what struggle is in those kind of moments. I mean, obviously there’s much bigger struggles than life, but from a [00:13:10] business standpoint, I think that really taught me a lot. And then, you know, after I left that Start-Up [00:13:15] was looking to, you know, help my friends, you know, who was just set up his practice. [00:13:20] And I thought, I’ve got a bit of an ops head, as Adrian was saying, and I know these guys are good [00:13:25] clinically, but anything I could do to kind of help them. And in that time, I think he [00:13:30] was the first customer of voice tech, I think at the time.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, it must be the fifth, [00:13:35] fifth practice. Yeah.

Kautham Haran: And I remember going and being sitting [00:13:40] in his practice and learning it before, uh, deep Patel. Doctor Patel, I [00:13:45] guess in one Dental. So he’s got, uh, he’s just opened up his second practice, actually in Kensington. So shout out to [00:13:50] deep. He’s doing very well. And, um, when I, you know, typically [00:13:55] the process is someone from Csat comes down, teaches you how to use the software and all of that. Before they’d sent someone [00:14:00] down there, I quite figured out what we needed to, to be done and then met the third [00:14:05] of our trio, Shamanth, who’s kind of head of UK product at the time now our head of customer success. [00:14:10] And I said, oh, interesting. And then I think at that point.

Adrian Dray: I get a couple of calls, right? [00:14:15] So I get a call from from Kirsty, uh, who heads up our training now.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your official [00:14:20] title?

Adrian Dray: Who knows? Abbey’s butler. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Are you like country [00:14:25] manager? Are you that.

Adrian Dray: No no no no, I’m well, officially I’m the director of [00:14:30] partnerships. I think I direct probably about one partnership.

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Adrian Dray: I’m director of demand [00:14:35] generation. I think.

Payman Langroudi: What’s you don’t have an official.

Adrian Dray: I kind of just fit in basically. [00:14:40] Um, uh, but yeah, I, I don’t, I’m the, what’s actually really lovely just to jump, [00:14:45] just sign on, on the conversation we’re having with Cal. But, uh, we’ve had like [00:14:50] general managers, country managers in, in our team, it hasn’t really worked out well. [00:14:55] And we found that actually having this trio of Cal Shamanth and I [00:15:00] works really well and we’ve become like brothers.

Payman Langroudi: But what is that implementation? [00:15:05] Yeah, marketing.

Adrian Dray: Marketing.

Payman Langroudi: And operations.

Adrian Dray: Um, customer success. [00:15:10]

Kautham Haran: Customer before he was product. Now it’s customer success. So it’s kind of the chain kind [00:15:15] of goes from Adrian to myself to Charlotte. Yeah. So between the three of us, I think as Adrian’s [00:15:20] mentioned, it’s, it’s a peculiar situation. I don’t think you often see a trio like us without someone [00:15:25] necessarily on top of us. Um, but I think exactly what you’ve said.

Adrian Dray: It has [00:15:30] radical, radical candour there. And I think actually that’s probably what’s played in quite well because at [00:15:35] this time, right. This is early.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re not his boss?

Adrian Dray: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: You feel like you’re equals? Yes. And [00:15:40] the other guys? Yes.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. For sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And there is no. No one above you.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think none [00:15:45] of us want the role. I think as well, that’s probably also all of us are [00:15:50] out there.

Payman Langroudi: There’s an opening there for someone.

Adrian Dray: Without.

Payman Langroudi: Responsibility.

Adrian Dray: Yeah I [00:15:55] think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I, can I, can I get back to you? What’s something that interests me, right, is, you know, the [00:16:00] notion of your biggest strength is your biggest weakness also.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That, [00:16:05] you know, the way you gave up your software.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You could call that your biggest [00:16:10] weakness in a way, because, you know, it was an outcome you didn’t enjoy. But [00:16:15] the way that you said, I’ll work for free or I’ll come, I’ll turn up to this meeting. You don’t need to pay me. It’s [00:16:20] a similar, similar skill, similar sort of trait. And that’s one of the biggest [00:16:25] strengths someone can have to say, I’m so excited about something. Don’t even pay me, you know, [00:16:30] and you know, the what works in life for you is, is going to be [00:16:35] a combination of the good stuff that comes out of your biggest strength. [00:16:40] And, and the bad stuff that comes out of your biggest strength.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I’ve probably become a little bit wiser [00:16:45] to it now. And it actually all comes down to.

Payman Langroudi: Harder, harder.

Adrian Dray: Harder. Yeah. Um, [00:16:50] but I think that it comes down for me having a real interest in the etymology or [00:16:55] the history of the word opportunity. So opportunity is, is, comes [00:17:00] from two Latin words and it goes right back to, uh, Mediterranean [00:17:05] maritime situation where you’ve got this old vessel that’s just on [00:17:10] the flat water. Maybe it’s just come out of a horrible storm. All the sailors [00:17:15] have got scurvy. Whatever it is, they just want to go home, right? They just want to go home. And home for [00:17:20] one. Might be just seeing these family. Home for another is like going to the tavern and having a knees up, right? Home [00:17:25] for the captain is like, let’s get this flipping cargo off so I can get paid. Yeah, [00:17:30] yeah. Right. So there’s, there’s always this thing of like, I need to get, get home. So what [00:17:35] would happen? Back in those times? I didn’t have any motors. Of course they’re relying on the trade winds. And [00:17:40] if you can just picture the scene where you’ve got this old vessel with [00:17:45] really upset and discouraged sailors who are on this flat water, who just want to go home brews [00:17:50] and bash the pieces. They start, they start feeling a wind, [00:17:55] right? That’s coming through. They don’t know if that’s the next storm or whether that’s going to be the trade wind. So [00:18:00] the navigator would say something like Tempest Opportuneness and Tempest [00:18:05] Opportuneness means well, actually look at opportunities. Two words OP means [00:18:10] going towards and port means port or harbour. So he’s effectively saying [00:18:15] this is the moment, this is the wind that will take us home.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe, maybe [00:18:20] right.

Adrian Dray: But the thing is, is that the navigator, right? Who’s calling that? He’s got [00:18:25] a big responsibility. He’s like, right, let the flipping sails down. Now this is the this is the wind that will [00:18:30] take us home. Yeah. And so when I have these moments that come up, I’ve [00:18:35] probably become a bit of a sharper navigator to think, yes, this is the [00:18:40] opportunity here, and that you have to be in the situation where you’re [00:18:45] doing, which creates momentum, which then helps you catch that [00:18:50] opportunity. So you’re right. I saw an opportunity there [00:18:55] when I got out of out of Covid hospital, and it didn’t go [00:19:00] my way, so to speak, but it certainly helped me realise [00:19:05] a much greater opportunity that’s here. And I think also the way that we recognise [00:19:10] hiring cow. So just go back to the second half of that story. I get [00:19:15] a phone call from Kirsty who’s saying I won’t do Kirsty Scottish accent because you’ll [00:19:20] kill me. Um, but she’s basically saying this guy cow is. He’s totally getting care [00:19:25] stack. He’s like a wizard with it. Shamanth calls me, he’s like, this guy’s great. I’m [00:19:30] with Abbey in London and I was talking to Abbey. It’s like, let’s let’s [00:19:35] meet him. Let’s meet him. So we’re at the Cinnamon Club. Um, you know, in town. Yeah. Indian [00:19:40] place. And it’s got little, little cocktail bar downstairs, and, uh, we arranged to meet Cao [00:19:45] Cao comes down and. And, uh, we get him a drink, and [00:19:50] it’s his first time. First time meeting Abbey as well. Um, but Abbey had a drink, so he was, [00:19:55] he was a bit more loosened up compared to when I first met him. Um, and I [00:20:00] think within 15 minutes we decided we want to hire Cao. Right.

Kautham Haran: Uh, [00:20:05] do you know what I’ve actually heard? I’ve heard that you’d made that decision earlier that day because you went to demo. [00:20:10] My other, uh, best man obeyed who runs W Dental um, in Twickenham [00:20:15] and now in Tooting. He had told me that when you had gone to see him, that you guys had potentially made the decision [00:20:20] to hire. And I thought, bloody hell, why didn’t you tell me that before I. Asked [00:20:25] for a bit more if I if I’d known that was going to be the case. [00:20:30]

Adrian Dray: That’s why we didn’t tell you. But but then, you know, Cal, [00:20:35] and we we said, look, we we’re not gonna we’re not gonna put you in the role of director straight away. Um, [00:20:40] but we’re going to just see how you sort of, you know, grapple [00:20:45] with this roller coaster that we have at the moment with a new product and we’re realising things that [00:20:50] are not working the way it should do for a UK business and all this kind of stuff. Um, but [00:20:55] there was the foundation of that absolute radical transparency [00:21:00] that, that we, that we were developing in those early days, which have even [00:21:05] with everything else, which may be chaotic at times. That’s our anchor, right? The [00:21:10] three of us with Shamanth as well. Um, to just be ever so [00:21:15] up front with each other. And if there’s a moment of ego, you, [00:21:20] you got to leave the room. And I mean, often I’m told go to [00:21:25] Stockholm, right? Go to go on holiday. Chill out for a couple of days, then come back and [00:21:30] I feel a little bit better. But yeah, but that’s um, if you don’t mind me [00:21:35] hijacking the second half of your story.

Kautham Haran: I do think, I think at that [00:21:40] time, probably when I was helping my friend out, I was looking for, you know, different roles and trying to see what kind of fits, I think with [00:21:45] care Stack when it came along, you know, when you’re young, you can do a Start-Up with [00:21:50] quite low risk. I think you don’t necessarily have a family, those kind of other things. As you get a bit older, [00:21:55] you have to take those risks on, um, and make that decision. But with Care Stack, I think the way it was, [00:22:00] it’s an established company launching a new market. It’s effectively the best of both. You can [00:22:05] kind of have your fast, agile hats on to try and change things almost daily, [00:22:10] weekly, which I tell you my team hate because of how fast I want to iterate and make sure [00:22:15] things are better. But then you’ve also got a bit more security in the company itself, because you can see what it’s done, where it’s [00:22:20] going.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not going to be a cash crisis the day after tomorrow.

Kautham Haran: Exactly that. So I think naturally, in my journey of where [00:22:25] I was, I think guess that came at a perfect opportunity. And for me then, you know, [00:22:30] when you’re saying about ego, I think I personally had a bit of an ego that there’s no way I’m not going [00:22:35] to make this work because how rare is it to find that kind of opportunity where those things align? So in [00:22:40] my head, it was quite clear what I wanted to do and how we would make this work. [00:22:45] And I think also naturally, I think when I first spoke to you, Adrian, I could see between yourself and Shamanth Shamanth [00:22:50] being more technical yourself.

Adrian Dray: Obviously not.

Kautham Haran: I could see myself fitting [00:22:55] directly in the middle, and I think that was the first thing I noticed within about ten, 15 minutes of talking to you. And [00:23:00] I think then, you know, some things are meant to be, so to speak, and I think it did [00:23:05] work well.

Payman Langroudi: And I think, look, considering how, you know, it wasn’t very long, long ago [00:23:10] when all this happened. Right. What did you say? 22, 23?

Adrian Dray: Uh, when we hired him.

Kautham Haran: 2024 [00:23:15] yeah, I’ve been with.

Adrian Dray: The company officially as an employed person [00:23:20] for two years. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s amazing because like, look, if Kiyosaki has only been around 2 or 3 [00:23:25] years. It feels like it’s been around a lot longer than that. Yeah. And that well done by, you [00:23:30] know, getting into people’s heads in a way, um, with, with the messaging [00:23:35] and then you’ve got the product itself. What kind of, I don’t understand [00:23:40] about the amount of effort that [00:23:45] Abbey is putting into the UK is that it’s a massive change, [00:23:50] right? You’ve got regulatory differences, you’ve got insurance differences, you’ve got differences. Yeah. [00:23:55] And the market size of the UK is like the same as Oregon. Yeah. [00:24:00] Or something. So is there an imperative that’s like is, [00:24:05] is breaking through the UK to do with more than the [00:24:10] income that the UK will bring.

Adrian Dray: I it’s a very good question [00:24:15] and I think you probably put it in the best, best way that I’ve ever, ever heard of it because it doesn’t make [00:24:20] on paper. It doesn’t make sense. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the amount of, of, of input [00:24:25] from America, you know, it’s a lot.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, absolutely. The size of the markets. Yeah. The difference in the size [00:24:30] is huge.

Adrian Dray: And there’s like 80 plus practice management systems that you can choose from in the US. Right. [00:24:35] Right. In the in the UK is about 12.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Adrian Dray: Right. Maybe 14. [00:24:40] Um so the question comes down to why [00:24:45] on earth haven’t other US systems tried to come to the UK and why [00:24:50] did castac. Right. That’s, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. With such force.

Adrian Dray: With such force. [00:24:55] The the Henry Shine one have tried to bring [00:25:00] in a. Before they purchased Dentali did try to bring in a cloud based [00:25:05] system. Um and it didn’t work out for them for lots of different reasons. [00:25:10] I think from what I’ve heard, one of the big reasons is because of the development [00:25:15] required around the NHS side of things, which we know is difficult. Yeah. Um, if I got that [00:25:20] wrong, please don’t send me a cease and desist.

Payman Langroudi: So Dental is native [00:25:25] UK, right? So yeah, so NHS is.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Um James um I’ve seen [00:25:30] him from afar. But yeah, the founder is I think, I believe he’s his dad is a dentist and they, [00:25:35] they, they built that from which is incredible journey. I mean I’ve got, I give him a lot of Dental.

Payman Langroudi: He hasn’t got a US [00:25:40] presence.

Adrian Dray: No. I think there’s Canada and Australia now. They’re they’re [00:25:45] moving. Interesting. Yeah. Um so they, you know, there, there has been attempts to bring [00:25:50] in US systems here, but most of them have been, you know, home-grown. Um [00:25:55] and, you know, to their, to their credit, they’ve done [00:26:00] very well to navigate the bureaucracy around the NHS, which can be extremely [00:26:05] frustrating sometimes and good on them. And we realise how difficult that [00:26:10] was going going to be. And there was a lot of eating of humble pie. Payman. [00:26:15] Right. You’ve got hundreds of engineers and we’re thinking, how hard can it be? Right [00:26:20] and it and it is hard. So, um, but [00:26:25] we, we had already at the point where we became ready for NHS, which [00:26:30] what we say comfortably mid last year that we were ready [00:26:35] after beta practices, but by the time we got there, we’d already taken 10% [00:26:40] of the private only market in England. Well right. So there was [00:26:45] squat practices now have started to favour care stack, um for [00:26:50] lots of different reasons. And they’re doing really well with it. Um and then [00:26:55] when you have this kind of momentum, plus you’re building the team and we’re getting this sort [00:27:00] of notoriety that even though there’s 14 systems, when you look at, you know, dentists [00:27:05] for dentists and other Facebook groups, it’s usually care stack versus another [00:27:10] large name, right? So that’s even though we have probably got the least [00:27:15] number of practices compared to top five, we have got the most mental like monopoly. [00:27:20] Had we not been able to do that, I don’t think we would have been. We would still [00:27:25] be here. That’s my personal opinion. That’s not that’s not a statement on behalf of Care Stack.

Adrian Dray: But [00:27:30] but I realise that the the amount of momentum that we’ve had to pick up an investment [00:27:35] that’s there. Now, to answer the second part of your question, what’s the kind [00:27:40] of the bigger plan or is there a bigger plan? You see, the, the one [00:27:45] thing that that Abby told me the first time I met him is that like, the biggest mistake you can make [00:27:50] is thinking that care Stack is just a practice management system company. You see a lot [00:27:55] of the big companies in the world, for example, Henry Schein have started started with distribution. [00:28:00] They’re a cradle to grave organisation. They started with distribution and now [00:28:05] they’ve gone into everything else. You can buy and sell your practice through Henry Schein. You can [00:28:10] buy technology products and this kind of stuff. We all know the importance of data now. [00:28:15] So Really starting off from a software perspective, particularly in this new technological [00:28:20] era that we’re in, allows an organisation like ours [00:28:25] to move into those other areas. So for example, we have telephony. Now we [00:28:30] have other arms like payment gateways and other offerings [00:28:35] which are now being grown in the US that potentially might come here in the UK. [00:28:40] Some of them interact with the PMS, some of them not [00:28:45] so much. Right. But it means that you start from this technology foundation [00:28:50] and we we’re not thinking, oh, how, how are we going to what are we going to like in the next couple of years? We’re thinking [00:28:55] about what we look like in the next 15, 25, 50 years. And, and [00:29:00] having that technology cornerstone puts you in a much better, much better [00:29:05] position because you come from a position of data.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So look, I mean, sacs known [00:29:10] for having a lot of features, right? And you know what? You you must know in software, [00:29:15] there must be a name for the hassle of switching platforms.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Change management. [00:29:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So. So the last thing a dentist wants is to have eight different software’s to, [00:29:25] to manage. And stack has a bunch of it within it. Right. But that doesn’t answer [00:29:30] my question at all. Maybe you’re not aware of what’s the reason that [00:29:35] the company in the US would put so much resource into one market [00:29:40] as small as the UK? Maybe. Don’t know.

Adrian Dray: Oh yeah. Sorry, I thought I did answer [00:29:45] that. I think we got to remember that we’ve got, um, one of our [00:29:50] largest minority shareholders is Straumann as well. Okay. So you know, [00:29:55] there is there has been interest that is there because Straumann is very big [00:30:00] internationally, but particularly in the UK as well. Um, and [00:30:05] what we recognised is that with a lot of the practice management systems [00:30:10] that are available in the UK, not many of them. In fact, [00:30:15] I don’t think any of them have been purpose built for DSOs, for Dental groups. [00:30:20] Csec has. So when you’re able to provide [00:30:25] that as a choice, as an offering to Dental groups, which means that no longer [00:30:30] are they dealing with their systems across their estate and having to make changes on an individual [00:30:35] basis that now they can add add a NHS contract in minutes, rather [00:30:40] than it taking hours or sometimes weeks asking someone else to. They need to update their [00:30:45] codes across the whole group. They want to change their pricing. They want [00:30:50] to do certain campaigns for pockets of the estate. They can do this super quickly. [00:30:55] And also the reporting across the group is also super, super [00:31:00] easy.

Payman Langroudi: The dashboards makes it obvious the number of sites and all of that.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. I [00:31:05] mean, you’re probably going to correct everything I said.

Kautham Haran: No. All the all the data points that you can get out [00:31:10] of care stack as well, not just necessarily reporting within the PMS itself, but also taking that out [00:31:15] and building your own data warehouses. All of that functionality is there. So I think that [00:31:20] is the core point for us. I think as a company, seeing that opportunity in [00:31:25] the UK market, considering what the other providers necessarily weren’t attacking vigorously [00:31:30] potentially, and also thinking probably with a level of naivety that, oh, [00:31:35] if we’ve got a UK English product, let’s say in the US, dentistry in the UK, [00:31:40] can we make it, you know, map it over? I think the two things combined probably then did attack that [00:31:45] and then we realised what are our strengths in the US. Exactly what Adrian saying and knowing all those things. There’s [00:31:50] definitely opportunity here. So I think that’s that’s core reason.

Payman Langroudi: And what’s the positioning in [00:31:55] the US like as far as you know, are they are they out of those 50 [00:32:00] systems as far as uptake, where’s care stack?

Adrian Dray: I don’t know where they are in its [00:32:05] specific positioning, but what I would say is how.

Payman Langroudi: Old is care stack in the US.

Adrian Dray: Ten [00:32:10] years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, that’s all right. Yeah. It’s all very new.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So they are there. I [00:32:15] think one of the fastest growing. Practice management systems that are out there. Um, and [00:32:20] again, it’s the same thing. It’s, it’s the ability to have all of your main core [00:32:25] features that typically you would pay another software provider, which doesn’t speak to, even though it says [00:32:30] it integrates, it doesn’t do it properly, but having it all in one place makes life a [00:32:35] lot easier.

Payman Langroudi: So let’s go through the top 3 or 4 things. So you said, um, you know, [00:32:40] DSOs reporting. Yeah. What else? What else? What else is under the bonnet that isn’t in [00:32:45] most other systems.

Kautham Haran: I mean, I think the core thing is the functionality to be able to, let’s say a DSO [00:32:50] is split across the country, as in you would have certain area or, you know, district managers, let’s [00:32:55] say someone’s responsible for northeast, that kind of splitting up of that data where you don’t see it all under one, and [00:33:00] you could group it all into those kind of things. Oh that’s cool. So from that side, I think, you know, giving those [00:33:05] DSOs that kind of opportunity to do so it’s interesting where I think the challenge for a PMS provider [00:33:10] is always, you’ve got management who look at one thing, but you’ve also got clinicians who only care [00:33:15] about another thing and front of house, who probably care about even less, or something completely [00:33:20] different, and catering to all of them in one place while doing all of those things. You know, how [00:33:25] do you make a complex system that gives the right person all the data points, but then let [00:33:30] it be easy enough that someone who doesn’t care is just there to do their job, doesn’t care about the running, doesn’t [00:33:35] do all those things. How do you make all of those things manage? So that’s a very delicate balance.

Kautham Haran: And then [00:33:40] creating the ecosystem, as Adrian saying, if everything plugs into each other, they all talk to each other. [00:33:45] You then work out from change management, management perspective. That’s kind of what our teams [00:33:50] do is to make sure, how do you give each of those individual teams a benefit? Because at the end of the day, why [00:33:55] else are they moving if you can’t show value? Value is shown in time or money, right? For [00:34:00] from our perspective. So even then, even though fine, you could do the reporting side [00:34:05] for the DSO. But if you then have the little bits working, that then all compounds up [00:34:10] because if you’re then saving front of house two hours per day, because they don’t need to look at typing [00:34:15] call recordings or something like this. They then that then gives that front of House member more time [00:34:20] to call up patients, fill the diary, and then that leads to more revenue elsewhere. So I think naturally, [00:34:25] just the way that case that’s been built kind of allows everything from the top [00:34:30] down. And even looking at it from bottom up both ways kind of functions in a good way.

Adrian Dray: So I think from a time and [00:34:35] money perspective as well, one of the features that we have got is the ability for a practice to [00:34:40] manage their own plan within the system. So what [00:34:45] the current behaviour is, is that you go to a third party, um, they deal with the [00:34:50] direct debits and the management, all this kind of thing. The problem for practices is a, [00:34:55] a cost because they’re having to pay a fee for that. The, the second [00:35:00] thing is being able to consolidate and understand the data and whether [00:35:05] this patient is still paying for that and they’ve just cancelled, but they’ve just booked in a hygiene like [00:35:10] that sort of thing. So with Care Stark’s own plans, the [00:35:15] patient can sign up in the chair as quickly as they sign [00:35:20] up for Netflix. And now the practice is able to understand [00:35:25] the usage of that plan. They can see whether the patient has cancelled. They can try again, [00:35:30] they can reach out, and they can have tailored plans to certain types [00:35:35] of situations. So you could have a minimum or essentials plan.

Payman Langroudi: We’re talking [00:35:40] about capitation, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Or you can have a specific plan that’s for implant patients, for [00:35:45] example, which is seen as a value a value add. But what you’re able to do [00:35:50] now is you’re able to see, I’m sorry, a be able to, to get people on [00:35:55] board at speed. And B, you’ve got a cost saving. So one of our practices [00:36:00] up in the north west, um, I won’t give his figures but they’re very, very [00:36:05] impressive figures. But from from a squat practice in under [00:36:10] a year, he was able to get 800 people. And he’s mostly Invisalign. Right. [00:36:15] 800 people onto a plan that he has built within care stack, you know, in like, yeah, [00:36:20] ten, 10 or 11 months. So that’s brilliant. And it’s so quick. They come in for [00:36:25] their Invisalign. They have an amazing experience. We’ve got, you know, general dentists here. We’ve got a hygienist [00:36:30] here. Can we put you on the plan. Absolutely done.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:36:35] the plus side is all this optionality um [00:36:40] all singing, all dancing plan this that and the other, [00:36:45] the downside as I’m understanding it is that introduces complication. [00:36:50] And so what’s the issue? Like does that mean onboarding [00:36:55] harder with it?

Kautham Haran: I think onboarding is probably one of the hardest things [00:37:00] when you’re looking at it, because in general, a practice management software is the one place where [00:37:05] you do everything from payments, booking appointments, online appointments, all the kind of different [00:37:10] things charting, treatment, planning, all the different functions within a dental practice get funnelled [00:37:15] through a practice management software. Now getting everyone [00:37:20] to I mean, it’s a it’s a mammoth thing, right? And I think one of the things that we’re quite [00:37:25] open with, with our customers is it’s not going to be easy. And it’s whether [00:37:30] those practices that we’re working with are ready for that challenge or whether their teams are, um, I’m [00:37:35] not sales, I’m ops. So I’m realistic on, on, on how these kind of things work and [00:37:40] navigating that when you could have, if you’ve got someone who’s been in that practice, who’s been there for 30 [00:37:45] years on one system, how do you get that person to kind of shift over and understand why they’re [00:37:50] in it? Why are they doing this? What’s the benefit to them? How do you then explain that benefit [00:37:55] to that person, but also keep the same benefit to management and other people within that practice? So [00:38:00] it’s getting I think for me it’s quite interesting because I always talk about this a lot that [00:38:05] from a customer standpoint, the teams that are the most aligned with that vision, within that [00:38:10] practice is equal from the owners all the way down.

Kautham Haran: They’re actually the ones that handle the change [00:38:15] the best. Whereas if people are just coming in and you know, they’re just there to do their job 9 to 5, [00:38:20] they’re going to give you headaches. And that’s, that’s, that’s always a given in change [00:38:25] management. And so our team are trained on those kind of things. How do you how do you deal with those kind of people? How do [00:38:30] you talk to those people who bring down and probably bring some negative energy within it when they’re not happy? [00:38:35] How do we deal with them? How do you give them that kind of bit of TLC, to be honest, to get [00:38:40] them to see, okay, I can do this. Maybe I’m not meant to learn everything [00:38:45] in a in a week and we can learn this over a staggered period. And for us, it’s that [00:38:50] understanding of people that’s actually more important because once you know your audience, you then tailor [00:38:55] it in that different way. And trust me, that wasn’t something we knew that comes from experience as we have, [00:39:00] you know, all the different dental practices we worked with made up of composition, all these different compositions. [00:39:05] Um, and then you learn what works, um, how you train, how you do these different things. [00:39:10] So complexity is the hard bit.

Adrian Dray: And also how to prepare our teams. You know, you, you imagine [00:39:15] that they, I mean, our guys KAOS team are warriors, [00:39:20] right? That blood, sweat and tears that they put.

Payman Langroudi: The engineers.

Adrian Dray: Know this is the implementation. [00:39:25]

Kautham Haran: The.

Adrian Dray: Implementation, you know, and and we’ve got I mean, for example. Shreya. [00:39:30] Right. Shreya she, uh, she was a receptionist, what, two years ago? [00:39:35] Yeah, yeah. In a dental practice. Um, Abby did a demo at the practice, was so impressed by [00:39:40] the questions that she was asking, took the owner to one side and said, I’d like to hire [00:39:45] her. Right. Do I have your permission? We had to wait a little bit, but Shreya has gone, um, [00:39:50] from from being a very good receptionist to now, you know, basically [00:39:55] one of cows number two, right? Lead implementation person and [00:40:00] is when you meet her, one of the most sweetest, kindest people [00:40:05] you’ve ever met and has been, but is able to put up with so much like challenging [00:40:10] conversations because it’s hard, right? You, you, you really invest in your client [00:40:15] and then you’ve got some someone who can be obnoxious or ignorant or [00:40:20] whatever saying, well, yeah, the button’s not in the place where I had it on. So and so, [00:40:25] you know, take my take my eyes, but don’t take my SOE. Right. And it’s difficult. [00:40:30] So we have to kind of build those, those teams as well that don’t lose their empathy, [00:40:35] but still have a very, very thick skin.

Kautham Haran: The level of resilience needed [00:40:40] for that is, is honestly, I think, incredibly underrated. I think when you’re looking at change [00:40:45] management people, humans are averse to change just naturally. Yeah. Right. And then trying [00:40:50] to get through, smile through it and do that is incredibly difficult. And I think it is testament to my [00:40:55] team, Shreya and the others as well in the team. I mean, we’ve got X implementation [00:41:00] team members who have implementation experience and they’ve never had a job like this. Really? And they’ve explicitly said that to [00:41:05] me. It’s not like implementation in any other company they’re used to. Potentially implementing one customer [00:41:10] at a time. Whereas in K stack, you’re implementing ten simultaneously [00:41:15] at different levels of the process or different stages. But also because we’re a Start-Up, that process [00:41:20] is constantly evolving. So if you imagine it’s not a linear thing, it’s two dimensional. And [00:41:25] that is incredibly difficult to to do. And I think it’s kudos to the team and probably [00:41:30] the ethos of, of k stack itself that, you know, when I interview, I tell all of [00:41:35] them, this is going to be difficult work if this. And I tell them, you know, I’m [00:41:40] quite honest and open, I don’t want to see them here within two years from when they join, because [00:41:45] for me, they should be learning from everything and they should be pushing themselves to do more and more [00:41:50] and more, and that’s what they’re in it for.

Kautham Haran: I think building them up in that way, gaining [00:41:55] the resilience, how to fastly spot problems, how to iterate for customers, put them at number one, [00:42:00] two, three, and four, and then themselves, I think, then puts them in a position that if they then went [00:42:05] on to do any other thing, it’s that Start-Up mentality that then they can then take on probably [00:42:10] learning that from my own experience, that it sets them up in the right way for them to tackle [00:42:15] their futures in dentistry or in any other field that they want to, because they’ve dealt with the [00:42:20] pressures of probably care stack. And, you know, we have demanding customers, but, you [00:42:25] know, internal ethos of us of ours rather is, you know, doing [00:42:30] more for the customer than they pay us for. And therefore that, you know, takes a lot out of you. [00:42:35] Um, but I would say, you know, it gets to that point where I think, and I’ve had these kind [00:42:40] of conversations with them, you need to enjoy that thrill. You need to enjoy that pain, [00:42:45] so to speak. It’s a bit, it’s a, it’s a bit weird to say.

Adrian Dray: It’s like, stop trying to hit me and hit me. Right? [00:42:50]

Kautham Haran: It’s that it takes, it takes that because I think, you know, dentistry is fast [00:42:55] paced. There’s very fine margins, and making sure that we’re [00:43:00] giving the most to these customers is the most important thing. One small error from [00:43:05] our side could lead to a huge loss in revenue for the customer. And it’s not okay to just [00:43:10] say, oh, sorry, you know, we should be seeking the highest standards internally [00:43:15] to make sure it reflects the standards that they’ve got with their, you know, if they’ve got private patients that [00:43:20] they’re charging, you know, quite a decent whack for, you know, treatment plans, it’s as [00:43:25] a PMS provider, do we deserve that business? Well, we need to and to show that [00:43:30] we need to have that level of care and attention to detail that mistakes don’t, you know, [00:43:35] don’t slip through. So kudos to the team. I think it’s not not easy for sure. [00:43:40]

Adrian Dray: And we’ve never we’ve never built teams out like this before. You know.

Payman Langroudi: How many people did you have in your own fintech? [00:43:45]

Kautham Haran: Uh, at its peak we had about 15. But then we developed systems [00:43:50] that then meant you could reduce the team size.

Payman Langroudi: So were you on the up side in that business too?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [00:43:55] Same. But you know, in a Start-Up, you always end up wearing many hats. Probably. Why? When I joined, you [00:44:00] know, never done implementation before, but I knew that I tackled most of the things that I’ve tackled. [00:44:05] It’s been okay. And I thought building that’s the big thing for me that I’ve found [00:44:10] probably the most enjoyable. And what I’ve taken out the most from Care Stack is building teams. I think watching people like Shreya, [00:44:15] Fouad and the others, um, all kind of progress for me is that [00:44:20] kind of drives me now. I think building teams, you know, it’s that [00:44:25] ethos of if I go away or I’m not there, do they have the same standards that we’ve all set? [00:44:30] Probably from Abby to us to then the next level. And I think we’re all aligned from that [00:44:35] point. Because then if, Adrian, you went away for a couple of weeks, if I went away for a month. Then [00:44:40] other teams still doing the things to the same standard, which when [00:44:45] we first started, we know was never the case when we first joined Caius. So I think that’s [00:44:50] that’s.

Adrian Dray: Kudos to five day holiday in my first year.

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a continuous evolution, [00:44:55] isn’t it? That the way that you you’re going to go forward for the next you’re saying 25 [00:45:00] years. Yeah. Yeah. That that running of a business. Um, what it’s [00:45:05] interesting to me is that, you know, of course, wanting to be something and actually executing [00:45:10] on that thing are two totally different emotions, two different skills, [00:45:15] right? I’m definitely you need one before the other. Yeah. We want to give back more than we’re [00:45:20] getting. Sure. Right. But as the number grows, particularly as the number of customers grows, [00:45:25] that becomes harder and harder and harder to pull off.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think [00:45:30] where we were, I think, Adrian, you would agree on this. We we sold so fast. And [00:45:35] you know, like you said, Payman about it sounds like we’ve been around for a lot longer than two, three years. Yeah. And [00:45:40] then our operations kind of had to catch up, if I’m being honest. And I think catching up while you’ve got [00:45:45] team members. Yeah. While they’re, you know, they’re used to, you know, they’re used to being in much larger organisations [00:45:50] where on process happens. That’s it for about three, four years. You know, the [00:45:55] red tape and everything to change something. Whereas for us, it’s if we’ve done something wrong with the customer, we’ve [00:46:00] learned from it. Okay, that changes tomorrow for every other customer.

Payman Langroudi: What surprised you the [00:46:05] most about dentists or dentistry or dental practices? Because [00:46:10] you had your friends, you kind of knew.

Kautham Haran: Um, [00:46:15] for me, I think from the dentist [00:46:20] standpoint, I do think not enough of them put emphasis on their teams, which [00:46:25] surprised me because I’ve seen it. For example, maybe I’m biased with maybe [00:46:30] some of the practices that I saw early. Um, and I think for me, investing [00:46:35] in people now, obviously I’m biased based on what I was saying earlier about that’s kind of been [00:46:40] my drive recently, but I do think having the people within [00:46:45] the practice who are aligning your vision, You know, I’ve seen some practice owners who kind [00:46:50] of just do their bit. They’re used to being clinicians and individual contributors. So they’re the [00:46:55] ones the backbone of the practice. But as a business model that then doesn’t necessarily let them scale. Some [00:47:00] of them don’t want to. Right. I’m not saying that, but there are others that are frustrated that their team aren’t [00:47:05] doing the same things or believing in it the same way they are, but they don’t have shares [00:47:10] in the business. Why should they? So what is it you’re giving to your team members to let them see the vision that [00:47:15] you have? What’s the trade off? You know, I use an example where it’s like, [00:47:20] you know, if you’re trying to motivate your team and trying to bring them, you know, if they hit certain targets, [00:47:25] do you take them to Nando’s or if they smash them, do you take them to Nobu? Right. Those kind [00:47:30] of differences is, does that come through and flow through to the teams all throughout, or is it just a job for them? [00:47:35] Because in my opinion, if it is just a job for them, um, for certain members within [00:47:40] the team, it’s difficult then for you to step away from it and to scale that. So I think [00:47:45] that’s definitely something that for me, I was more surprised at, I think, uh, when speaking [00:47:50] about it with some practice owners, I think there’s, they’ve never really seen it that way, [00:47:55] which I found quite interesting. Um, I think they’re more a.

Payman Langroudi: Component of that is career progression within a dental [00:48:00] practice. Some are very good at it, but some would rather have teams. I mean, you said I want [00:48:05] you not to be here in two years time. Some would rather have the kind of person who’s not [00:48:10] interested in progression. And and so that leads to that [00:48:15] same sort of atmosphere of, you know, why should I now move, you know, the kind of person who’s not [00:48:20] interested in progressing and if and if you employ for that. Yeah. You know, [00:48:25] I come across dentists, you must too, right. They want a nurse who’s just going to be there and be the nurse. [00:48:30]

Kautham Haran: That’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an easy life.

Kautham Haran: I think those are two different paths, though. And in my [00:48:35] opinion, if you’re going down that path where you’re trying to build a team with people who aren’t that interested [00:48:40] in improving themselves or just doing that, that kind of job, your systems should be in place [00:48:45] to make sure things are, for example, checklist based because these people aren’t going to sit there and have that attention to [00:48:50] detail because they don’t really care. So your business can go down two different paths. But from an operations standpoint, [00:48:55] you as the leaders within that practice, you should understand the profile of that individual when you’re hiring them, [00:49:00] because otherwise what you’ve got is that turnover where a front of house team member leaves, and then [00:49:05] you’re hiring locums, and then your costs are going up, but maybe correctly identifying [00:49:10] those individuals so that, okay, I can, if this person isn’t interested [00:49:15] in improving, how can I get it where I get a new person in quite relatively easily. Low barrier [00:49:20] to entry, they can pick up the job really easily. That means you need the systems in place to make [00:49:25] sure that person hits the ground running, and you don’t have a huge training period, which then is a drag on your operations [00:49:30] and your finances.

Adrian Dray: Also, I think if you if you’re going to hire either all of your team [00:49:35] or part of your team on that basis of, I just want a nurse to be a nurse, I just want a receptionist [00:49:40] to be a receptionist. Then don’t give too much weight of their to [00:49:45] their opinion for big changes. Mhm. Because that’s what we that we see. [00:49:50] And don’t get me wrong, I love Dental nurses, I love reception, I love all members of the team. [00:49:55] Right. But when you’re doing this big kind of change, you shouldn’t be thinking, oh, they’re going to kick off [00:50:00] and they’re going to get really upset. I was like, well, you’ve decided you just wanted them to fulfil that particular [00:50:05] role. And if they can’t deal with this change, you, you feel that in the short and maybe [00:50:10] most importantly, the long term, that’s going to have a material impact onto your business, [00:50:15] then you need to get people in that position that can do the job, but [00:50:20] that align with your vision and don’t give you hassle for it because what’s the point?

Payman Langroudi: Very [00:50:25] true, very true. Um, I want to move on to well, [00:50:30] before we move any further, what’s the worst thing about care stack software about. [00:50:35]

Kautham Haran: Care stack as a company or.

Payman Langroudi: Software software.

Kautham Haran: Software itself. [00:50:40] I think one thing that I’ve [00:50:45] noticed about Sestak is in our emphasis to listen [00:50:50] to customers and make sure everyone’s got a voice. [00:50:55] I think there are certain things that you can see within our product that we’ve tried to cater to potentially [00:51:00] too many people in the past, too many different, not everywhere, but in certain places. [00:51:05] I think sometimes when you think about like an iPhone, you know, it is the way it is, right? [00:51:10] And do we believe that our product is built in that way that we want it to, because [00:51:15] we know the way we’ve done it gives value to our customers. I think that’s probably something for me, myself, [00:51:20] looking at our software, I can see where it probably went in early days. We maybe [00:51:25] to land in a market, you do need to kind of have that flexibility. [00:51:30] So I think that’s definitely one thing. Maybe. And from an onboarding standpoint, if there’s [00:51:35] too many different ways of doing something, on the one hand, it’s flexibility. So you can cater for more people. [00:51:40] But on the other hand.

Payman Langroudi: It’s more complication.

Kautham Haran: Exactly.

Adrian Dray: It’s the problem of the plenty. Yes, [00:51:45] that’s that’s the the problem we have. And there are multiple ways to do things. [00:51:50] And if you’re trying to do a particular type of task, you might think [00:51:55] there’s way too many clicks to do this. But actually there’s another way that’s a lot quicker. But [00:52:00] we’ve, we’ve had to present the button [00:52:05] setup, whatever you want to call it, the UI in a way that that is able to [00:52:10] accommodate certain types of users who have come from a certain type of business. Because if [00:52:15] you ask most, most dentists on, on, on dentists, for dentists, and you said, [00:52:20] do you want so exactly as it is, but in the cloud, majority of them say, yes, [00:52:25] just minimum, just put that in the cloud.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Kautham Haran: But the thing is that happened [00:52:30] a lot. Yeah, when we first started.

Adrian Dray: But the reality is, is, is the way [00:52:35] that. So which is a good system, don’t get me wrong, but the way the SSO is set up, is [00:52:40] that the right way for the modern modern future dental practice? And [00:52:45] the reality is most people won’t be able to give a yes or no answer [00:52:50] to that. They don’t know. They just say, well, I just don’t like change. But you do like [00:52:55] innovation. Yeah, I like innovation. Changing innovation is the same thing. It’s just that [00:53:00] we have change is painful. Innovation is fluffy, but it’s the same process. [00:53:05] So I think that that is one of the things that we’ve in our in our efforts to be [00:53:10] attentive, right, and accommodating. We haven’t shot ourselves in [00:53:15] the foot. We’ve just had to adapt in the way that we develop in the future. [00:53:20]

Payman Langroudi: But there are trade offs, aren’t there? There are trade offs. It’s difficult to be the best product and [00:53:25] the cheapest, you know, things like that. Very obvious trade offs. Yeah. And here we are with this [00:53:30] particular trade off. Yeah. Well I think you’ll find I mean one thing you might not be aware of in [00:53:35] dental in general, is that the sort of huge [00:53:40] barriers to entry in every way? So, you know, [00:53:45] we’ve got regulatory issues. You’ve got regulatory issues obviously with data. Um, [00:53:50] getting a dentist to change behaviour is hard. But then on the [00:53:55] other end of it, that makes it easier because competitors find it [00:54:00] much harder to take your customers compared to other businesses, you know. You know, people [00:54:05] aren’t agile in changing software every three days. Um, even, even, [00:54:10] uh, you know, dental, dental materials, they get used to something they don’t want to change. And [00:54:15] so it’s one of those slow burn type businesses. Um, and, you know, I hate [00:54:20] regulatory, I hate it. And, you know, not that I’m at all involved [00:54:25] in it, but, you know, we’ve got people we spend loads of money on every time we’re trying to go to another country, [00:54:30] another regulatory nightmare. But I do reflect on the fact that it’s not a pizza shop [00:54:35] that my brother in law could set up next door to me if he wanted to, and [00:54:40] immediately take my business. It’s the regulatory is the best and the worst thing about it, [00:54:45] and the slow sales cycle that you’re discussing is also one of the best [00:54:50] and worst things about dentistry. I want to get on to the [00:54:55] sort of mental position that the market’s [00:55:00] now got for care Stack, which I suppose, Adrian, you’re really responsible for what’s happened [00:55:05] there.

Payman Langroudi: As I say, it feels like you’ve been around a long time and what you’ve done with [00:55:10] events, um, it makes you just feel like as, as an outsider that, [00:55:15] you know, these are people I need to listen to. I need to pay attention to this company. [00:55:20] Um, and we’ve discussed many times events. Let’s go to events. Yeah, [00:55:25] we’ve discussed many times that events need a shake up. You know, that they [00:55:30] haven’t changed. I mean, I’ve been in dentistry 25 years, 30 years or something, and [00:55:35] they basically haven’t changed very much. Um, and [00:55:40] I think Covid brought it into like sharper sort of focus that if you’re going [00:55:45] to leave your house, it needs to be worth it to leave your house. [00:55:50] Otherwise you can just go, you know, and there’s a magic about, let’s [00:55:55] face it, whatever AI comes in or whatever, there is a magic about [00:56:00] breaking bread and having lunch together, right? The AI is never going to replace. And for [00:56:05] instance, when you were doing the Rory um, thing, um, massive, wonderful [00:56:10] innovation, right? Bringing someone like him to dentistry. Um, Rory [00:56:15] Sutherland the, the, you know, you could have just gone to YouTube and watched a lot of [00:56:20] Rory, you know, but being in the same room as him, there’s a magic there. Not to mention he [00:56:25] sort of made his content more Dental. Mhm. So tell me your thought process around that. Do [00:56:30] you share what I’m saying about enough of hotels and conference centres and.

Adrian Dray: Oh, it’s. [00:56:35]

Payman Langroudi: Turning up as either James Bond or or Spider-Man [00:56:40] at the socials. You know, like.

Adrian Dray: It comes down to it comes down to a feeling that I [00:56:45] have. And I think you’ll you will agree with this. Dentistry is obviously a very small world. [00:56:50] The behaviours with it, the closest that I’ve ever experienced [00:56:55] is being back at high school.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Because you have the same cliques, right? [00:57:00] Yeah. You’ve got the, the, the ones that are going for the awards, the prom king, prom queen, [00:57:05] the popular kids. Right.

Kautham Haran: Did you grow up in the UK? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which [00:57:10] is a lot of American TV.

Adrian Dray: It’s not my fault you were alone at [00:57:15] school, right? I actually had friends.

Payman Langroudi: Go [00:57:20] on.

Adrian Dray: Homecoming, but I. And then you [00:57:25] would have, like, the anti-establishment. Yeah, right, kids. And then you would have, like, the real, [00:57:30] like, nerdy Do you have the bullies? Bullies. So you have all [00:57:35] of these these these these different these different cliques. And the way I survived [00:57:40] high school is I didn’t really belong to any particular clique.

Payman Langroudi: I just everyone thinks they’re that cat. But [00:57:45] you know.

Adrian Dray: I moved between.

Payman Langroudi: All of them. Not, not.

Adrian Dray: The, not the bullies. Yeah, but but [00:57:50] I just thought.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you go to school?

Adrian Dray: So I went to a private school in Devon up until [00:57:55] year eight. Year end of year eight. And then I went to a community college in North [00:58:00] Devon. So I’ve seen the private and the non private combination. Yeah. Got [00:58:05] bullied massively in my first year of community college. But um but yeah, I was able to [00:58:10] survive, you know, just understanding that social kind of thing. And you know what it’s like, right? It’s, it’s once [00:58:15] a year or it’s a couple of times a year, there’ll be that kid who’s got the best party and [00:58:20] everyone’s talking about going to that party.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: And afterwards, what happened at [00:58:25] that party?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that kid’s share price goes up.

Adrian Dray: Right, right. And what actually happens in that party, it it might [00:58:30] not necessarily even be that exciting, right?

Payman Langroudi: It’s the conversation, the hype.

Adrian Dray: On it, the hype after [00:58:35] it, the people who weren’t there, all this kind of thing. So I, [00:58:40] I was realising that this was happening right when, when we go into the [00:58:45] trade shows, it’s the same old thing, right? Whether you go there as an attendee, it’s worse if you’re a supplier [00:58:50] because you feel like you’re being robbed basically in front of.

Payman Langroudi: You, risking your. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [00:58:55] but the I, I thought, well, let’s, let’s try [00:59:00] a different, different type of event. And before I put on [00:59:05] for the doers, which happened on 19th of September last year, 2025, [00:59:10] I had started listening to Rory Sutherland about behaviour psychology, [00:59:15] about marketing and advertising. Actually joined his masterclasses, online masterclasses. [00:59:20]

Payman Langroudi: So you had.

Adrian Dray: Masters? Yeah. So I was speaking, I’ll say speaking, I was, I was, I [00:59:25] was listening, learning from Rory as part of this online class. And every month we have a call with Rory. [00:59:30] And that was really how I was able to get in front of him, to talk to him about [00:59:35] dentistry and try and see, would you be up for coming to an event? Because he’s I mean, you know, he’s [00:59:40] a he was the vice chair of Ogilvy, right? So he’s his schedule is so [00:59:45] packed, but I managed to get enough intrigue there for [00:59:50] him to say, yes, I will come and do an interview, you know, in front of a live [00:59:55] studio audience, um, for dentistry. And that was the, [01:00:00] the, the event was just going to be getting people to just listening to Rory. Right. [01:00:05] That was it. I was going to do an evening thing, get people to come in and then they’d leave. And I thought, [01:00:10] no, maybe there’s, there’s more, more to this. Um, and so what I [01:00:15] wanted to do is build the whole event, not around [01:00:20] our product, but around a particular ideal. And [01:00:25] the ideal is that there are two types of groups in dentistry. [01:00:30] Actually many other industries. But in dentistry, you’ve got the ones who love the status quo, [01:00:35] who are quite happily happy to push down anyone who wants to try something new, right? [01:00:40] We call them the Moaners. Okay. And then you’ve got the others [01:00:45] who, even though the Moaners exist, they still are bold. They dare to be different. They want [01:00:50] a better dentistry. They do that publicly. They do that behind the scenes. And we [01:00:55] call them the doers. Right. This bias towards action. Now, the commercial [01:01:00] angle on this is that if we’re able to host an event that is talking [01:01:05] about those themes, then people who are there identify as that [01:01:10] and therefore are more likely to maybe take a bet on a new product like care stack [01:01:15] and voice stack, right? Because it takes guts and you’re gambling and all sorts [01:01:20] to try something new.

Adrian Dray: It’s very easy to to pick IBM. Right. That’s the the old [01:01:25] adage. So having a having an event that was all around that and [01:01:30] then bringing in different people that are able to talk about the mindset, they’re able to talk about their [01:01:35] particular stories and present that without us even showing our product. [01:01:40] That was a bit of a risk. It was an unsanctioned event, right? It was [01:01:45] this was like off book. So, um, but we actually, [01:01:50] from a commercial perspective, we close more business on that than the trade shows [01:01:55] we had been to that year combined. So for [01:02:00] us, it just showed an in an outstanding [01:02:05] point is that these decision makers want [01:02:10] to get to know their providers well and be aligned on [01:02:15] the same things, which is we want innovation. We want the, the mindset, [01:02:20] the skill set, the strategies to try and help our teams move, to [01:02:25] help us move, to have those conversations internally that we can have because [01:02:30] we have this internal bias to action. Let’s stop talking about it. Let’s actually do it. [01:02:35] And that’s what we wanted to arm our audience members with. That’s what Rory [01:02:40] is really good at, because he’s the king about thinking differently on things and reframing problems. [01:02:45] Um, and it worked incredibly, incredibly well. And then for us [01:02:50] from a, from a mental monopoly of fame perspective, which is what you need, particularly [01:02:55] when you’re a new product. It just, it just took us to the moon.

Payman Langroudi: I couldn’t [01:03:00] make it because it was the first day of my son’s university.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Even though I had made it through [01:03:05] the process to come to it. Yes. But for people who weren’t there. And I [01:03:10] want to get on to that, by the way, I mean, there is a magic to events. There is a it’s a [01:03:15] nightmare. And at the end of the day, how many people can you have at an event? And, you know, by [01:03:20] the way, I’m doing event coming up. Yes. Um, the nightmare of an event versus [01:03:25] the magic of an event because it has. [01:03:30] Oh, we might have 400 people, but I put a post out on social today [01:03:35] that got 1000 views this morning. Yeah. And so it [01:03:40] doesn’t make actual ROI sense and brain time sense. And [01:03:45] yet in another totally immeasurable way, it makes total sense. Yeah. So tell [01:03:50] me about the if for people who weren’t there, what, what, what are a couple of, [01:03:55] um, Rory insights into dentistry?

Adrian Dray: Well, I would say that Rory [01:04:00] insights happen right from the preparation part because I asked him about [01:04:05] how do I, how do I make this a standout event? Because this is completely new. Yeah, it’s from a company. [01:04:10] So they’re probably gonna think, oh, we’re going to get sold to for a whole afternoon. How do I do this? [01:04:15] And his insight was make it application only. Mhm. [01:04:20] Now this comes from a topic which he talks about quite often, [01:04:25] which is you want to add a level of, of frictions, often to a, to a [01:04:30] process. Because when people do this, they feel that there’s a status upgrade. [01:04:35] Now he gives an example of, um, uh, cake mix, [01:04:40] right? So when this first came out in the 70s, um, the [01:04:45] cake mix was, was made in such a way that all you had to do was add water. That was it. [01:04:50] Put it in the oven. Done. And it failed. It didn’t go [01:04:55] through. You think that’s, that’s so easy, right? But people just felt like they hadn’t really made [01:05:00] a cake. So then they changed it and they just they put a few words, [01:05:05] just add an egg. And then it, it went because there was a, there was a level [01:05:10] of action that was put there. There was a level of friction there that people had bought in. And [01:05:15] then they feel like there’s internally there’s this kind of status elevation by doing that. [01:05:20]

Adrian Dray: So the first thing we did was we made an application only now. Also, I wanted to make sure there was [01:05:25] the right split of audience in the room, which is important because if I put tickets [01:05:30] out to see Rory Sutherland and meet Rory Sutherland guaranteed it would have been just [01:05:35] a load of associates and students who’s not my target audience. So [01:05:40] I was also making sure that we had the right, the right mix, right mix in [01:05:45] the room. So starting off with Rory’s insight was that, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen another [01:05:50] event that’s done application only. And that’s all I’m going to do before the doers moving forward. The [01:05:55] other things that he was showing, which was, which was [01:06:00] interesting during during, I was actually looking back on the interview recently, insights from [01:06:05] Rory. He spoke about [01:06:10] the, the potency of other people who [01:06:15] love their dentists. Mhm. Right. And he made a link towards [01:06:20] Royal Mail. Now, Royal Mail invests a lot of money into their brand. A few years [01:06:25] ago, quite a lot, probably about ten years ago. What they couldn’t understand [01:06:30] is that whilst they put all of this investment into their brand, they were [01:06:35] still part of the country where the satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was [01:06:40] going down. Even though as well they had a higher delivery rate as well. [01:06:45] But then they would find certain areas of the country where.

Payman Langroudi: The opposite.

Adrian Dray: Was true. The opposite [01:06:50] was. So the delivery rate was worse. But the interest in Royal Mail was much was [01:06:55] much higher. Right. The satisfaction rate in Royal Mail was much higher when they investigated [01:07:00] it. The. The. It all came down to how much they liked their postie, postman, [01:07:05] postman or postwoman. Right. Right. So that [01:07:10] was that was the weird thing, right? They can they don’t mind if there’s a couple of days late, but they. When the [01:07:15] postman comes, they. Morning. How are you doing? How’s the kids? Right. All this [01:07:20] kind of thing. Now, he went to a finance director and said, you know, we need to invest more in this. [01:07:25] They think he’s always got to do is deliver the letters. Who cares? But that [01:07:30] was that was a really important, important thing. He calls it the front, the doorman fallacy, [01:07:35] where you have a really nice hotel and it’s had a doorman at [01:07:40] the front who knows everyone who comes, comes across, knows all the local gangsters, knows all the [01:07:45] police, like all those the homeless guys. Now, if you had, um, [01:07:50] one of these big consultancy firms like McKinsey that went into that hole, the first thing they would say is, well, [01:07:55] is this a doorman to get an electric door, put a CCTV camera? Yeah.

Adrian Dray: That’s it. And [01:08:00] what they would. And then you save the money on his on his salary. But then later [01:08:05] on they realise well the, the, the rate has gone down. So [01:08:10] having those kind of things which you cannot necessarily quantify [01:08:15] is a really important thing to look at. And when you’ve got a split in the audience between DSO, [01:08:20] Leaders and independent practice owners, this was really this was really true because [01:08:25] now independent practice owners are starting to look into their data more than ever, right? They can [01:08:30] go into ChatGPT, they can get a McKinsey style response to [01:08:35] a particular problem. But what they’re forgetting is what makes them unique and [01:08:40] what is a superpower for them, which is they’re a family run business, and that probably has a higher potency [01:08:45] rate than whatever ChatGPT ChatGPT spits out or [01:08:50] a consultant spits out the same way you can save money here. So that was one [01:08:55] of his, his main things that he was, he was looking at.

Payman Langroudi: What was I mean, how does the dormant fallacy translate [01:09:00] to dentistry? Is that the you the way your receptionist acts or whatever?

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So for [01:09:05] example, you know, I showed invoice stack just before we went, we went live and [01:09:10] I actually saw Rory yesterday and, um, at an event and he goes, he goes, I’m [01:09:15] plugging voice at for you everywhere. I was like, I know Rory, I’m getting lawyers called me. I’m getting finance [01:09:20] people like, can you tell them it’s just for tennis?

Payman Langroudi: You’ve you’ve become one of his stories.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, exactly. [01:09:25] Right. So, um, yeah, but you have to go into other industries like, yeah, okay. But it was just [01:09:30] focus on, on dentistry now. But what he was, what he was saying [01:09:35] is what he likes about voice stack is that it’s able to show you what’s [01:09:40] called potential opportunities. Okay, this is what happens is that say someone [01:09:45] moves into the local area, okay, they’ve driven past your practice and they see an Invisalign [01:09:50] sign, or they know that you do implants. And the previous practice, they were they know that was one [01:09:55] of the things they were talking about. Whatever the story is, that means that person calls your practice [01:10:00] and makes an inquiry. Okay, now, does every one of those inquiries [01:10:05] on that first call turn into a Botox appointment? No, no. Right. And there [01:10:10] might be multiple reasons for it. It It could be the receptionist doesn’t have the right telephone handling skills [01:10:15] for that particular type of call, or just generally, it could be that they’re distracted because they’re dealing with a patient [01:10:20] right in front of them. It could be they’re not educating the person correctly on the type of treatment. There’s [01:10:25] a whole multitude of reasons why that person didn’t book on the initial call. What [01:10:30] voice act does is it analyses that call and sees [01:10:35] this is a new appointment opportunity here. It didn’t get booked. They spoke [01:10:40] about implants. What if we had an opportunity to give them a call back and voice [01:10:45] that highlights those particular calls. It scores the probability rates that if you call this person [01:10:50] back, and if you touched on these particular types of points, there’s [01:10:55] an 80, 60, 70% chance of getting them booked back in.

Payman Langroudi: Well, now and then it [01:11:00] alerts the team to call these guys first.

Adrian Dray: Exactly. So what practices are realising now [01:11:05] is that when they have voice that before they had absolutely no understanding or idea And [01:11:10] it’s not their fault because the dumb phone systems that they’ve been using, even the AI ones, weren’t.

Payman Langroudi: Totally [01:11:15] separate to me as far as package wise.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, you can have it integrated or separately. [01:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Adrian Dray: Um, so now what they’re saying is like, right. So [01:11:25] our practice received, let’s say 100 opportunity calls, existing [01:11:30] or new patients that are calling up, talking about, talking about treatments with an intention to book an appointment, [01:11:35] right? Not changing the appointment, intention to book an appointment. And of that, we [01:11:40] didn’t book 80% of them. Why not? And [01:11:45] now they can look at look at all of those. But it’s not just the case of thinking, oh crap, we’ve got a [01:11:50] massive problem here. The system is now nudging a treatment coordinator or someone else [01:11:55] to call that individual back. And now that conversion [01:12:00] rate is going up. Now the there’s two things that work really well here. First of [01:12:05] all, that’s reverse benchmarking because no other practice is doing that, because they don’t have a system in [01:12:10] place that actually picks up that opportunity anyway. The second thing is, [01:12:15] is that the potency level from a patient experience is so high for [01:12:20] people getting that type of callback, right. So imagine, imagine Mrs. Jones has [01:12:25] made the call. She’s, uh, heard that one of her friends has had dental implants [01:12:30] done at the practice and thought, you know, I’ve got, you know, anniversary dinner coming [01:12:35] up in a few months and I’m a bit worried. Don’t have the confidence eating into a steak or whatever. I really want to whatever [01:12:40] their sob story is around implants. Okay. And they call up whether [01:12:45] it’s price, maybe it’s something else. They don’t they don’t book in. Now, they [01:12:50] spoke to Julie on the front desk. Now, uh, Donna, [01:12:55] the TCO calls back that patient potential patient [01:13:00] and says, oh, Mrs. Jones, she spoke to Julie yesterday about this. I don’t think that we covered everything [01:13:05] on finance for you. I just wondered if you know. So you make an informed [01:13:10] choice. I get to see, even from the conversation data and speaking with practices, [01:13:15] practices, all of them have got a story where the patient is absolutely [01:13:20] over the moon from a patient experience perspective that they had that type of [01:13:25] call.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. I think as in the second person knows what happened in the first call.

Kautham Haran: And [01:13:30] you can even take it further there. I think I’ve seen some practices who do really well with this. When a patient turns around [01:13:35] and says, I’m off to the Bahamas for a, for a couple of months and I’m coming back and you get that transcript pulled [01:13:40] through and you understand it. And then you use that when the when the front of house or the TCO then [01:13:45] calls that patient and says and speaks to them next. Oh, I hope your trip to the Bahamas was. Well, yeah, that difference, [01:13:50] I think in you keep you’re keeping the ethos of what your practice is good at, you know, from [01:13:55] the dormant fallacy kind of idea, all of these things on what’s the core parts of our business family run [01:14:00] this kind of thing, making sure we’re doing right by the patients, but then you’re getting your systems to come in place [01:14:05] and just almost amplify the things that you’re good at, and that is [01:14:10] working really well for you. I think those two things tying together is the key. The system.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:14:15] there’s a CRM built in so that the team can see what’s going on [01:14:20] with respect to these.

Adrian Dray: Two things, we integrate with a few CRM. So Boxley is one of them. We’ve got [01:14:25] go high level. There’s a few others and then grow as well. Um, [01:14:30] but we do have at that a specific feature that if, if the [01:14:35] individuals just want to have a look at that potential opportunities that come in that they can just focus [01:14:40] on that. Um, the other thing that that voice stack has been really good for and has the same thing that Rory [01:14:45] was talking about is missed call response, um, is [01:14:50] like front and centre. So every practice is going to have missed calls. Okay. I spoke to a practice [01:14:55] last week. Their answer rate was 25%. [01:15:00] Wow. Okay. But they responded to every missed call. Okay. [01:15:05] In under an hour. It was. It was just weird. I said, you’re spending more time [01:15:10] on responding to missed calls than you are answering them now. We there was there was some reasons internally [01:15:15] for that. We’ve helped them with some features and this kind of thing. I checked their stats yesterday. They’ve gone to 75%. [01:15:20] Right. But the thing I said that you should take stock and you [01:15:25] know, commend them.

Payman Langroudi: Number one we’re measuring the missed calls.

Adrian Dray: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. Go on. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But the [01:15:30] the thing is, is that I can um when you’re the fact you’re responding [01:15:35] to these missed calls at all is, is great and you’re doing it so quickly. [01:15:40] If you put yourself in the patient’s shoes, they don’t know what percentage of you know [01:15:45] you’re answering. You’re missing. They just know that.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the situation? They were understaffed.

Adrian Dray: They [01:15:50] they had a whole new reception team. And they had one receptionist. They had given that there were only a 1 or [01:15:55] 2 surgery practice. They had the same call volume as a five surgery practice I’d spoken [01:16:00] to the day before. They just got a lot of calls.

Payman Langroudi: For interesting practice.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, but [01:16:05] it might just be it could be just the area. It could be the fact that people were ringing around for NHS. There’s lots of different things [01:16:10] for this. But the, the, the, the point that Rory was saying is that he said, [01:16:15] if you put your consumer hat on, how many times have you had [01:16:20] this experience where you’ve called a big company or even a small company you’ve not got through and they’ve called you back? [01:16:25] Doesn’t happen. You just think, I haven’t got through to E today. I’ve got to call them back. Yeah. Right. [01:16:30] So the potency level or the being an exception in that patient’s mind is [01:16:35] so high because they think, oh, wow. Thank you for calling me back. That’s great. Add that [01:16:40] to potential opportunities where it’s highly personalised. Then it’s even more of a winner.

Payman Langroudi: Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. [01:16:45] And I think taking from that, it’s I’ve seen some practices that have done this really well when [01:16:50] they’re looking at that scenario where, for example, their call rate is so low, they then [01:16:55] have done this thing where within their teams, they’ve said, how do we address this as [01:17:00] a team and now bringing the team in to be part of that process. I always use the analogy of, um, [01:17:05] you know, Ikea furniture because you’re building it yourself. You then have more [01:17:10] care for the furniture. And in that same way, by getting team members to then address the [01:17:15] problem and be part of the solution and help define that solution, the uptake and the change [01:17:20] is completely ownership. Yeah, complete ownership of doing [01:17:25] it themselves and understanding. And because they’ve helped to develop that process, they, they think, oh, [01:17:30] I can’t not do it because I was the one who even helped to suggest this.

Adrian Dray: And when you add that voice that does [01:17:35] call scoring as well, so it looks at the individuals calls, it splits it up into different [01:17:40] areas and says, you’re great at this, but you weren’t good at this.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the back end of that? [01:17:45] You could like voice to text to LM.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, yeah.

Adrian Dray: Then presents [01:17:50] it back into a UI.

Payman Langroudi: Nightmare software is man. Because because give it another eight months [01:17:55] and the guys AI is going to call the practices AI.

Adrian Dray: That’s already [01:18:00] happening, isn’t it? This is a brilliant story, right? So this is this is why I’m I’m a little bit even [01:18:05] though we are bringing out our own like AI voice bot receptionists, [01:18:10] we have to as a, as an industry, we have to be exceptionally careful [01:18:15] with this. Um, so let me give you a quick story first [01:18:20] and then then go into the warning. There are practices out in the US that have [01:18:25] an AI receptionist voice receptionists taking calls out of hours, [01:18:30] and they’ve just picked whatever’s first the market or got the best ad campaign about [01:18:35] Dental receptionists. And they’re coming after a couple of weeks, [01:18:40] they’re going all on Facebook and saying, this is amazing. It’s booked so many like Invisalign [01:18:45] consultations. I had no idea there was so much interest at 2 a.m.. Right. [01:18:50] What it is, right, is that their competitor down the road knows they’re using an AI receptionist [01:18:55] has built their own AI patient to go and phone up, book [01:19:00] all of these fake consultations.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Adrian Dray: Yeah. So goddamn, [01:19:05] how petty is that? Now, whether that’s going to work in the [01:19:10] US or in the UK, I don’t know whether that’s going to have the same situation. But the warning is [01:19:15] here is that it does not take much effort. You don’t need any coding experience [01:19:20] to design. What is an AI Dental receptionist? Right. There’s [01:19:25] so many that are hitting the market. Yeah. The problem that we have is the same problem we had [01:19:30] when those hoverboards came out. You remember those two wheeled hoverboards, right? It didn’t start [01:19:35] with Samsung or big name brand bringing out a hoverboard. It was [01:19:40] cheap hoverboards that were being drop shipped from Taiwan and China. Yeah. Then they were [01:19:45] starting to be house fires, people getting having accidents. And that whole product line died straight [01:19:50] away because it was bottom. Top. Mhm. Right. We have we’re going to have [01:19:55] we’re going to have the same problem with AI voice receptionists, because everyone’s running to AI [01:20:00] because they’re thinking AI from an efficiency perspective. They’re not seeing AI from a value perspective. [01:20:05] And this is bad for even small dental practices should always [01:20:10] look at value. The corporates, although they shouldn’t, they they typically look at [01:20:15] an efficiency perspective because they have the restraints of being a pee backed often. Right. But [01:20:20] you know as well having a premium product, right. It’s premium for a reason. It [01:20:25] gives value for, for a reason. So you’re not why would you want to gamble with [01:20:30] a potential patient who could be dropping 30 K on a full arch or [01:20:35] very complex treatment in the hands of a, of a robot.

Payman Langroudi: Because the robots are better [01:20:40] at it than the human that that would be at that point. I mean, we’ve got a chatbot is better than most of our [01:20:45] people. And that never makes a mistake. When, when, when they it’s text, right. When they send [01:20:50] that text, they certainly we found out there’s only 27 questions that enlightened ever gets asked. So [01:20:55] she knows how to answer those 27. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to [01:21:00] organise, but that is the moment you would do it right when when the AI answers better than the human, [01:21:05] I bet there’s a whole lot of, um, data protection nightmares in it too. Oh yeah. [01:21:10]

Adrian Dray: Because a lot of these AI receptionists that came, that came out and actually look. [01:21:15] Yeah. Um, last year, right. I was getting a spike of calls [01:21:20] to my, to my GDPR consultancy. Right. Adrian, I’ve just, I’ve just [01:21:25] got this. I’m not going to mention the name of it. Um, just got this AI receptionist that’s being pushed out on, [01:21:30] on, uh, in Facebook at the moment. Um, and it’s, [01:21:35] I’ve got a data breach. It’s starting to provide the details of the previous patient. [01:21:40] Well, right.

Payman Langroudi: So just someone asked it. Yeah, [01:21:45] it was too.

Kautham Haran: It doesn’t have the safeguarding in there to do it. And it will. [01:21:50]

Adrian Dray: Yeah. Because I was, I was getting a bit of pushback. Right. And being challenged online. It’s like, Adrian, [01:21:55] you know, you’re the face of voice tech in the UK. This AI phone system is [01:22:00] analysing where’s your voice spot? We’ve got all these other people. Where’s your one? And I was like giving our guys hassle [01:22:05] for this. And I just don’t look bad, man. And then they, they, um, they told [01:22:10] me it’s like, well, it’s not harder than you think. You’ve got complex treatment plans, you’ve got NHS, [01:22:15] you’ve got potential safeguarding. This is not easy to push out. For some calls [01:22:20] it might be straightforward. You start bringing in some complexity and it starts doing all sorts of crazy stuff, [01:22:25] including data breaches. So ours is coming out soon. I won’t [01:22:30] give dates, but um, but yeah, I can tell you that that the significant amount [01:22:35] of effort has been put in so that it gives a proper experience and importantly, it passes over [01:22:40] to the right person when it’s required.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move on to the [01:22:45] darker part of the pod. We like to talk about mistakes. Obviously, [01:22:50] you guys aren’t clinicians, So it’s not going to be as stark. But what would you [01:22:55] call your biggest mistakes in at work?

Kautham Haran: I [01:23:00] think for me, I think, um [01:23:05] building teams is always hard. I think you learn a lot. [01:23:10] I mean, if you think about the different types of people that you come across, and I think sometimes [01:23:15] making difficult decisions around team members and sometimes [01:23:20] believing in the best in some of them as well. Now I’ve always got this, you know, [01:23:25] people come from all sorts of backgrounds. They come in, you know, they go through an interview process and you bring them in. But [01:23:30] at the end of the day, if you’ve got a high performing team, you have a duty of care to those high performers [01:23:35] that you don’t keep low performers within the team because [01:23:40] otherwise it becomes a toxic environment and doing that. So I think learning that lesson too late. [01:23:45] I know I’ve put potentially stress on the teams and the high performers without, [01:23:50] you know, needing to tackle those probably difficult decisions.

Payman Langroudi: Not firing people [01:23:55] quick enough. I think you’re saying.

Kautham Haran: I think hiring slow but firing fast is [01:24:00] definitely some a lesson that whilst I’ve been at chaos that, you know, it’s something I’ve learned. [01:24:05] I mean, I’ll be honest, when I joined chaos, I think on my second day, I was told to build a team of ten people [01:24:10] and not having been in implementation, not having been in Dental. And then I think building [01:24:15] teams fast, you then realise, hmm, okay, should I’ve done that a bit slower and picked and [01:24:20] you know, and did it slightly differently. So making that decision to, to move faster, [01:24:25] I think, you know, and probably when I have made those decisions, I’ve also gone out and probably [01:24:30] apologised to my team because I think you should sit there as a potential leader within an organisation [01:24:35] and admit the mistakes that you’ve made, because if you have caused duress on the team, it’s [01:24:40] those guys who are there to perform and you sit above and you’re meant to guide them. But it tells [01:24:45] us all that we’re kind of human and we can make those mistakes. So for me, I think that’s the one that probably [01:24:50] frustrates me a bit about my experience. But everything is a learning.

Payman Langroudi: People talk about business [01:24:55] should be more like a pro sports team than a family.

Kautham Haran: And I’m a big [01:25:00] fan of that.

Payman Langroudi: But you do feel like it’s a family. We’re a family here. We’re working together, we care about [01:25:05] each other and all of that. And so when you mix those two things up, it becomes hard to fire people. [01:25:10]

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I think so. But I think also, once you start having a high performing team, it becomes a bit easier because [01:25:15] the standard is set and I use the analogy.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of polices each other.

Kautham Haran: Exactly. And I think it’s that [01:25:20] kind of thing where I use the analogy from the movie 300, where I think they’re all meant to [01:25:25] lift their shield and cover the person next to them. If you bring in a team member that can’t lift that shield, [01:25:30] the others will be the ones at your door saying, hang on, this person’s not not up to scratch. And [01:25:35] I think that for me is probably a lesson that I’ve learned that, you know, once you’ve got good people in your team, they [01:25:40] can even tell you, you know, I don’t think this person’s cut out for it. But that’s a, there’s [01:25:45] a very fine line there because that can be a toxic work environment. So how do you police that? [01:25:50] How do you make sure when you’ve got young members in the team and they’re all early in their careers or growing the [01:25:55] human beings, they’re going to make mistakes. How do you manage that? How do you make sure everyone’s [01:26:00] singing from the same hymn sheet? And how do you cover those things? Because once you get a toxic environment, [01:26:05] um, I’ve seen that with teams, you kind of almost have to cut it all out and start again, which is [01:26:10] not easy to do. And I know that’s something that has gone through as a company, not necessarily in the UK, but in [01:26:15] I think in the US. They did that at some point. And I think that’s a lesson I’ve learned from Abbey, which [01:26:20] he told me very early on. Yeah, that was needed.

Adrian Dray: So Abbey is.

Kautham Haran: Right. And I still fell into that mistake. [01:26:25] And it’s frustrating. The good thing is he doesn’t he doesn’t really say, I told you so. No, I think [01:26:30] I think from that side, I think I didn’t I didn’t take that into consideration enough, but I’ve learned my lessons.

Payman Langroudi: Adrian. [01:26:35] Biggest mistake.

Adrian Dray: Plural or singular? I [01:26:40] think the the biggest mistake that [01:26:45] I have made since my Kazakh journey is [01:26:50] taking myself too seriously at times. [01:26:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Adrian Dray: Because, you know, when we first came, I launched this with Abby. [01:27:00] We were on the road and we were. And we were very much the face, the personality [01:27:05] behind the product.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Now Abby is now mostly in the US. Um, [01:27:10] and it’s it’s me. Right. I’ve become the more of the name [01:27:15] and the face around the product. And my job is to make it famous and make it [01:27:20] popular and to be a thorn in the side to my competitors and calling out their issues [01:27:25] without mentioning their names. Right. These these are things. And you get so involved in that, that [01:27:30] creative process when things don’t go your [01:27:35] way or when mistakes happen, it’s not of a case that it’s a it’s a black [01:27:40] mark or a smudge on the Kazakh name. It’s so easy to take it as that’s a. [01:27:45] That’s a smudge against my name. Now, as soon as that happens, I [01:27:50] realise I start to lose my temper, and when I lose my temper and I become negative, [01:27:55] I take it out on cow. I take it out on Samantha. I take it out on the teams and [01:28:00] I have to take myself out of the country often just to. [01:28:05] Just to chill out. So the way that I’ve been able to, to change [01:28:10] that now is I, I’m stepping a little bit back [01:28:15] from just being the person who is who’s, who is talking on stage and [01:28:20] all these kind of things because you’ve got to know cow. Now you can see why I was like, we need [01:28:25] to have cow on the podcast because he has so much insight.

Adrian Dray: He articulates on items a lot better than I do. [01:28:30] And it’s not a case that I want cow to take the heat. Sometimes it’s a case of that there’s [01:28:35] more to this from a personality perspective than Adrian Dray, right? [01:28:40] And I don’t say that in an arrogant way. It’s just the way the chips have fallen with this. Um, [01:28:45] uh, but that’s probably the, the biggest thing. And, and, you know, the way, [01:28:50] the way this probably happened the most was last [01:28:55] year, uh, in, uh, dentist for dentist group. [01:29:00] They had an anonymous posting feature, anonymous comments feature and [01:29:05] there was conversations around care stack positive and negative. And then it just, [01:29:10] it was just a tirade of negative comments. And then it started to go against me personally, right? [01:29:15] Things like Adrian’s gone from helping protecting businesses [01:29:20] now to destroying them, right? Which is like, where’s this come from? It’s like, oh, this is it. He’s [01:29:25] just, he’s given free GDPR advice for, for years. [01:29:30] Um, and now to, you know, now only just to go and push, push a product. I was [01:29:35] like, I was doing GDPR way before he was even a thought, right, for the UK market. [01:29:40] And that really hit me. I remember sending screenshots to Cao and Sham, which I shouldn’t [01:29:45] send screenshots of. I’ll get killed for that. It was only a bit about me. Um, and it was anonymous. Um. [01:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: How are you on that site in the first place?

Adrian Dray: How? Yeah, because years of [01:29:55] giving free GDPR advice. That’s that’s honorary honorary member. Yeah. But [01:30:00] what what I later found out is that there are individuals who have a personal [01:30:05] beef with me. Were getting other people to post pretending to [01:30:10] be clients.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, anonymous post. Right.

Adrian Dray: Right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Um, [01:30:15] and I, I let them win. I let them take, take my peace of mind. [01:30:20] So now I just don’t care. I like now I view myself as a gladiator in the Colosseum, [01:30:25] which all Dental suppliers should. Right. And the audience are in the Colosseum. [01:30:30] That’s dentistry. So we are there to fight. It’s supposed to be a bloodbath. So when these things pop [01:30:35] up now, I don’t take it so seriously. It’s like, well, this is the game.

Payman Langroudi: But you’ve been guilty of taking it too [01:30:40] personally.

Adrian Dray: Yeah.

Kautham Haran: Massively so. I think on that, Adrian, I can’t give you enough credit for managing that, to be honest, [01:30:45] because the rest of us, we’ve come into dentistry. Obviously I want to be here to stay. But [01:30:50] given your longevity within this market, I think that kind of pressure where people associate your [01:30:55] name with Kessock, I think sitting there and if you’re getting these personal digs, that’s not, you know, [01:31:00] if Kessock doesn’t work or anything like this, the rest of us can walk away. But for you, I think there [01:31:05] is a significantly more risk, you know, higher risk that you’ve taken on that. That’s not easy as a person. And I think it’s [01:31:10] strength to Adrian’s character to be able to kind of manage that and also admit that [01:31:15] you were a nightmare to deal with in those scenarios when it was awful. I’ll be honest, but I [01:31:20] wouldn’t have wanted to be in your shoes, and I give you credit for that. Thanks. To get through that.

Adrian Dray: This [01:31:25] is recorded. Yeah. I’m going to play that back to you.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re a heart on your sleeve [01:31:30] kind of guy. Yeah. Again, it’s the best thing about you as well. Um it’s you know what, [01:31:35] the one thing I’m learning from this pod is I should spend more time on Facebook. I haven’t been.

Adrian Dray: There. You don’t [01:31:40] want to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: For a long, long, long time. I [01:31:45] was looking at my for some reason, my phone gave me my son’s screen time [01:31:50] for whatever, you know, and I thought he was like, I don’t know, two hours, 40. And [01:31:55] then I looked at my own one and I said, oh, you’re down like 24% from last week [01:32:00] at seven hours. I was like, what, seven hours? Um, [01:32:05] another social platform. I don’t know if I could manage, man.

Adrian Dray: Well, I think it’s good. You [01:32:10] know, it’s good to be able to see what’s being said.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Adrian Dray: But also taking a lot [01:32:15] of it with a pinch, pinch of salt, particularly when people are.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had my moments on on for Dental. Yeah, [01:32:20] for sure. But I just I don’t bother with it with, with Facebook anymore. No, I’m more [01:32:25] the other, other direction. Let’s move on to our final questions. Fancy [01:32:30] dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive. Who’s going first? [01:32:35]

Adrian Dray: You go first.

Kautham Haran: Okay. For me, I think [01:32:40] Obama is one. I think Michelle.

Payman Langroudi: What’s funny about. [01:32:45]

Kautham Haran: It, to be honest, I think as an orator, he’s [01:32:50] the best, I think. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Even better than Clinton and Blair, man, which I didn’t think was possible.

Kautham Haran: I think [01:32:55] the way he speaks, and it’s probably something that, you know, for me and my career and where I want to go, I think I, you [01:33:00] know, I think being able to pick his brain and just sit with him, I think would be incredible. [01:33:05] I think number one, number two, probably for me, quite a I quite [01:33:10] like my movies. So I think Christopher Nolan, I’ve loved his movie since I was young. [01:33:15] So I think just understanding how he creates a vision within his head and plots it because, you [01:33:20] know, it’s art.

Payman Langroudi: Which is your favourite memento?

Kautham Haran: Love that movie [01:33:25] from 2000. So a film shot I think. Non-chronologically. [01:33:30] So it’s back to front. It’s very.

Adrian Dray: Weird.

Kautham Haran: Film, very good movies. If you haven’t seen it, I would [01:33:35] recommend.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve seen it or not.

Kautham Haran: Yeah, I would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Would I remember it?

Kautham Haran: No it’s not. I don’t think [01:33:40] it’s particularly popular very you know, I mean he’s known for confusing movies, but I think I remember [01:33:45] the name. Yeah. That was the kind of one that got it. Um, and probably third more [01:33:50] from a personal point of view. Um, I think, um, I never got the chance to meet my [01:33:55] grandfather. He passed away before I was born. But when I’ve spoken to [01:34:00] my father, you know, they grew up in Sri Lanka. He was the reason, you know, that set the whole platform [01:34:05] for my father to, you know, eventually leave his country due to civil war. But I think I stand [01:34:10] on the shoulders of fathers, grandfathers, mothers, grandmothers of people [01:34:15] like that. And I think seeing how, you know, my dad’s my biggest hero. So if seeing them and [01:34:20] being able to talk to the person who moulded him, I think I there’s insights [01:34:25] there that I just wish and pray that I could have. But obviously he’s passed. So [01:34:30] unfortunately I can’t. But yeah, I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good reason to have him, right? Yeah. What [01:34:35] did your dad do?

Kautham Haran: Uh, my dad’s just, uh. He was a corner shop owner before. He’s now retired, but, [01:34:40] um, put.

Payman Langroudi: Myself in that corner shop owner. People say that. Yeah. The question is, what was he doing before that? [01:34:45] Because sometimes you’d be like, yeah, he was a civil engineer and then he became a corner shop. You get that [01:34:50] all the time.

Kautham Haran: Yeah. So my father left his country at the age of 21 due to civil war. Kind of [01:34:55] came over Sri Lanka. Yeah. Sri Lanka then. So he’s been a start up owner. Corner shop owner. Right. So [01:35:00] like I’ve always seen the drive to work from him. Honestly, he used to work. Really.

Payman Langroudi: You ever work in the shop? [01:35:05]

Kautham Haran: Yeah. Yeah. Back in the day.

Payman Langroudi: So massive people talk about how they manage like to [01:35:10] learn how to talk to anyone from working in a general store.

Kautham Haran: Absolutely. I think that kind [01:35:15] of just that relationship to, to talk to people from a young age, I think my dad was always against technology, [01:35:20] you know, was that, you know, those automatic tools that you got with the scanners when they first came out, I said, [01:35:25] is what I call him. I said, come on, you’ve got to get one of these, say the times. He’s like, no, why? Why don’t you just memorise the [01:35:30] price of every single item in the shop? And that’s how he runs it and how his staff had to run it. [01:35:35] And I thought, this is insane. So yeah, he did that. I think very mathsy brain, [01:35:40] which I think, and my mother as well, I’ve kind of taken on. But understanding that hard [01:35:45] work, I think comes from him for sure. And that’s kind of motivated me. They, you know, [01:35:50] they didn’t have to leave, you know, going back to Sri Lanka. I see the way they grew up. Bloody hell. You know, [01:35:55] like living, you know, three of them in a room smaller than this. Um, and growing up like that teaches you humility, [01:36:00] which I think then means that who am I to not try hard, given the opportunities I’ve given in life? So [01:36:05] that for me has been a very big kind of thing that I’m worried about future generations. [01:36:10] If they don’t see that hardship, how do you get them to to be motivated and [01:36:15] to push themselves? So, um, I think, yeah, coming from my father and those [01:36:20] generations, I think is it’s important.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting. It’s like, you know, diamonds are made under pressure, [01:36:25] whatever, at the same time, you know, like, let’s imagine your kids [01:36:30] will see what you’re doing under a different type of pressure. Have you got kids?

Kautham Haran: Not yet. [01:36:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, and then and then the kind of thing that your kid might aspire to be. There’s [01:36:40] a global thing that, you know, it’s an interesting story.

Kautham Haran: Of course, because how do [01:36:45] you teach a generation? I don’t know, I find it really interesting. When you said your kids got off to a uni right now, [01:36:50] you said, yeah, yeah. So teaching them, you know, if, if you have a parent [01:36:55] that’s successful, I think, how do you instil that fire in the next generation? They have to be [01:37:00] motivated or been brought in, understand the the push and the hard work that’s necessary. [01:37:05] But understanding that you don’t always get given things on a silver platter, I think is important. But that’s [01:37:10] all kind of how you’re brought up. There’s some, you know, comparing to your peers, all these kind of things. It’s, it’s, [01:37:15] I don’t envy you at the moment, but it’s going to be even harder for future generations. I think, um, [01:37:20] it’s a quote I always love. What’s it the good time. Sorry. Good times breed [01:37:25] weak men. Weak men breed bad times and bad times breed good men, man, right? So that kind [01:37:30] of.

Adrian Dray: Heard of that?

Kautham Haran: Yeah. I think that cycle is.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:37:35] about you? Brilliant. Brilliant. Guess who’s going to be yours.

Adrian Dray: So [01:37:40] dead or alive?

Payman Langroudi: Three. Guess.

Adrian Dray: Fiction or non-fiction. Right. Okay. [01:37:45]

Payman Langroudi: Fiction. Interesting. Cool.

Adrian Dray: So it could be characters. Sure. Okay.

Kautham Haran: Fictional.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. [01:37:50]

Payman Langroudi: Well, like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck like that.

Adrian Dray: I don’t give it away. Um, [01:37:55] so my first one would be Alex Hormozi. [01:38:00] Oh, yeah. Right. And for those who don’t know who Alex doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Know Alex Hormozi.

Adrian Dray: People don’t. I [01:38:05] spoke to some. Oh, that guy from the Neck Dentistry show. I was talking to him. He didn’t [01:38:10] know who it was, like flipping it, mate. I guess there’s.

Payman Langroudi: A guy who’s not who’s not flicking as much as I am.

Adrian Dray: But [01:38:15] Alex Hormozi is just, you know, he’s entrepreneurial brain. [01:38:20] He’s ability to deal with the hard things is just great. Like that [01:38:25] guy is just a machine.

Payman Langroudi: Like just Unemotional. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: Sort of. Yeah. But also, when he does [01:38:30] tap into that emotional bit, it’s like so compelling. It’s like, wow, you do bleed, you know? Um, [01:38:35] then the second person would be my favourite character of [01:38:40] all time. And that is Quint. So the fisherman, [01:38:45] the shark shark hunter in jaws.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: Oh, right.

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s [01:38:50] you want the character.

Adrian Dray: I want the character.

Payman Langroudi: Not the actor.

Adrian Dray: No, I mean, Robert Shaw would be amazing, but as [01:38:55] Robert Shaw, as Quint in that, because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never had a character before. I [01:39:00] love that.

Adrian Dray: The ability to his storytelling ability is incredible. [01:39:05] Right. Um, and he’s quite grizzly, you know. Um, and then the, [01:39:10] the third person would be Don Draper from Mad Men. [01:39:15]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The character.

Adrian Dray: The character. But Jon Hamm playing Don [01:39:20] Draper. Right. Um.

Payman Langroudi: These are some of the three most innovative answers I’ve had. [01:39:25] Bad.

Adrian Dray: Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Because I think the conversation around that table would be so [01:39:30] interesting. Don Draper has got this very creative, almost aloof kind of personality. [01:39:35] You’ve got Quint who’s just this aggressive, you know, blue collar, almost [01:39:40] quite a nasty person, right, in many ways. And then you’ve got Hormozi, [01:39:45] who is just so like locked in to, to hard work, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Can I add one for you?

Adrian Dray: Yeah, [01:39:50] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Younger Adrian the musician. Oh, really? We didn’t really get to that.

Adrian Dray: That guy’s [01:39:55] a douchebag.

Payman Langroudi: We didn’t really get to that part of the conversation. [01:40:00] You were a proper rock star for a bit, man.

Adrian Dray: Yeah, I was a front man of a band. I was building [01:40:05] up in Stockholm, and it was a great time in my life. I was a lot [01:40:10] I almost half the weight I am now. Um, but it was brilliant writing my own songs [01:40:15] and yeah, having that.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re thinking of going back to writing.

Adrian Dray: Yeah. You [01:40:20] know, I was in, I was in Austin a few weeks ago and that country [01:40:25] music scene. And I the last sort of songs I was writing were very sort of country music based. Uh, [01:40:30] and I just got a taste for it. And I just thought for me, if I’m going to go back [01:40:35] on stage, feel more confident in myself, but also to be able to sing better because it, you know, it’s [01:40:40] breathing is a big part of it. I thought, I need to lose a buttload of weight. So I’ve set my set myself [01:40:45] a goal in November, I’m going to do a gig in Manchester and know exactly where it’s going to be. And I’ve got [01:40:50] ten songs to write and about 50, 40, 50 kilos to lose.

Payman Langroudi: And, well.

Kautham Haran: People are going to be [01:40:55] shouting, is that Don Draper? Oh.

Speaker 5: Yeah, [01:41:00] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s it’s [01:41:05] been a massive pleasure, man. I’ve really enjoyed it. Um, from you I’ve learnt go back on Facebook [01:41:10] and for you, my God, you, your brain works really beautiful [01:41:15] sort of logical way. It’s nice to see that. Nice to see how in touch you are with all [01:41:20] of that as well. And team building. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing.

Adrian Dray: Can I do one last thing? [01:41:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Adrian Dray: Can I plug someone? A business, a small little business [01:41:30] who unfortunately was at the same had [01:41:35] the same sort of outcome that I had from that individual who took the whole CRM [01:41:40] business idea.

Payman Langroudi: From the same person.

Adrian Dray: Same person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Adrian Dray: I’ve heard that. [01:41:45] She’s a wonderful person. I’ve looked at her, some of her work. She does branding. Uh, it’s, uh, [01:41:50] her website is Varta creative studio.co. That’s VARTA creative [01:41:55] studio.co. Um, her, her big sister’s a [01:42:00] dentist owns a couple of practices and I think if people can have a look at what she’s got, go [01:42:05] for it.

Payman Langroudi: What does she do?

Adrian Dray: So she, she does like branding website design. It’s [01:42:10] on a smaller level. But I think we should look at these, these sort of, you know, smaller businesses and [01:42:15] give them a shot. And she’s, she’s had a difficult time with that individual. And I think, you know what, [01:42:20] go ahead and have a look.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you know the creatives for this stuff. Yeah, [01:42:25] we, we first, um, booked them 18 years [01:42:30] ago and it was just two men and now they’re this massive. [01:42:35]

Adrian Dray: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: It’s, you know, some sometimes it’s, it’s when you’re small [01:42:40] and new, when you’re most innovative. Yeah.

Adrian Dray: You’ve got nothing to lose often, you know. [01:42:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But you have to be something. You have to be outside of the box. Right?

Kautham Haran: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. Lovely [01:42:50] to have you guys. Thanks. Thanks for doing it.

Kautham Haran: Thank you. Thanks so much.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:42:55] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:43:00] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has [01:43:05] had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, [01:43:10] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think [01:43:15] might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six [01:43:20] star rating.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast is brought to you by enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system. Join [00:00:05] us for online training where I’ll take you through everything you need to know about how to [00:00:10] assess a case quickly, how to use the system, how to talk to patients. Because when [00:00:15] you know you can deliver brilliant results, it’s so much easier to talk about it. To book your course, which takes [00:00:20] only an hour. It’s completely free. Visit enlighten Online training.com. [00:00:25] Now let’s get to the pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts, Payman Langroudi [00:00:45] and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Neil Seeker [00:00:50] onto the podcast. Neil has had an illustrious career, but right [00:00:55] now, chief dental officer at Bupa Dental insurance [00:01:00] and director of dentistry at Bupa, which is 360 practices. So I [00:01:05] guess representing the clinicians at all levels, right. Is that is that is that what you [00:01:10] do at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: I do, I do, I suppose I do three things. I’m a practising dentist. [00:01:15] Still see my patients once a week. I’ve got a group of them I’ve been looking after for years. I’m the chief [00:01:20] dental officer for the insurance business. And in that role, I helped to design our dental insurance products, [00:01:25] sell them into large companies, and then look at how we can streamline [00:01:30] the journey for anybody that has that insurance that might want to come into our practices. And [00:01:35] then with the director of dentistry role, I think my job is to I I’m [00:01:40] the senior clinician that sits on the board. I lead our clinical advisory team, um, [00:01:45] and our role as a gang of four, if you like. Um, we represent the, [00:01:50] the dental community in terms of dentists, hygiene therapists, nurses, [00:01:55] and I oversee the group. But our job is to build a community [00:02:00] to try and help people believe in, in what the value of Bupa can [00:02:05] bring to them. But also, we just, you know, we want to be the number one choice of employer. And our [00:02:10] role as a for clinical professionals, our role as a group of four is to do that.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:02:15] your your career, I mean, I remember you from the Barbican. Dental days. Yeah. [00:02:20] Which I was, I was still studying but, but by the time I, I [00:02:25] was thinking about opening a practice, you were putting these sort of [00:02:30] mobile units outside of like bank headquarters and [00:02:35] then and then doing the deal with the bank to get people to, to go there instead of the other dentists [00:02:40] because it saves time.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. That wasn’t actually me. Was that in terms of the mobile units? [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Neil Sikka: But I had a very similar idea. So my story, [00:02:50] I suppose, started, I was working in the East End of London, Bethnal Green, you know, the heart [00:02:55] of the East End. And I was working in an NHS practice in the days [00:03:00] before CQC.

Payman Langroudi: Associate.

Neil Sikka: As an associate. Um, and my [00:03:05] room was probably not much bigger than this table. Um and I, it was so small that I [00:03:10] couldn’t have a door to go in. I had saloon doors. So I was an original cowboy dentist [00:03:15] and people used to fall into my chair and I literally would sit behind [00:03:20] the chair all day and patients would just come in. I’d see 40, 50 patients a day. [00:03:25] It was that kind of practice. You probably remember those. Yeah. And it was I mean, [00:03:30] it was hard. It was tough. And it was really difficult to provide the kind [00:03:35] of treatment that I wanted to. And I remember walking out the door one day and [00:03:40] I looked up and I saw the Tower of Canary Wharf going up. And I just [00:03:45] had that kind of moment. And I thought, I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to set up a dental practice [00:03:50] in Canary Wharf, and then I’m going to approach all the companies in the area and [00:03:55] effectively set up a dental plan for those companies so that all those employees can come [00:04:00] to my practice for treatment. And that was my kind of dream. Age 2425. [00:04:05] Um, it didn’t quite work out just like that [00:04:10] because I did approach Canary Wharf and they said, have you ever run a practice before? [00:04:15] We’re looking at some very high quality services for our environment.

Neil Sikka: You know, we’ve got investment [00:04:20] banks, law firms, blue chip firms of the world. Yeah. And I said, well, [00:04:25] no, I haven’t. But I’ve got this ambition. Anyway, I managed to find out. [00:04:30] They said that they were going to put a big health centre together and Dental was going to be part of an integrated health [00:04:35] centre. So I managed to find the name of the company that was potentially going to get the contract. [00:04:40] And I approached them and they said, okay, you know, you’ve got some good ideas, [00:04:45] but you’re 25 years old. We want to try you out effectively. They didn’t say that. Set [00:04:50] up in our building in the Barbican. We’ve got a health centre there. Let’s see how you get on. And that’s [00:04:55] how I started. And um and eventually they set up in Canary Wharf [00:05:00] and that’s how I started my business. And I just, you would literally, I would set up a [00:05:05] practice, go to the local blue chip firms and local firms as well. Um, [00:05:10] I had a dental plan that I had created, I would sell that into the, into [00:05:15] the company.

Neil Sikka: And then those employees for a set monthly fee would receive [00:05:20] services of my practices so I could grow private treatment very quickly. [00:05:25] Um, and also I, you know, I don’t know if, you know, in the early, late [00:05:30] 80s, 80s, early 90s dentistry was private [00:05:35] dentistry was the preserve of the West End of London, a few pockets around the country. Yeah, but [00:05:40] there wasn’t much private dentistry going on. And I felt that it was I [00:05:45] felt that it was quite elitist, if I’m honest. People would look down on you almost if [00:05:50] you were, you know, not if they were working in the West End. And I thought, that’s not the way it should be. We all qualify [00:05:55] the same. Yeah. Um, so I thought by introducing this way of [00:06:00] providing affordable private treatment on the doorstep for employees and [00:06:05] employers, I could make it much more egalitarian. And so everybody [00:06:10] from the CEO down to, you know, your doorman could have access [00:06:15] to treatment for a set monthly fee. And that’s how I grew it. So that grew over 20 [00:06:20] years. I had ten practices in the end. Um, and, you know, and [00:06:25] that’s how I grew the.

Payman Langroudi: Business, the mobile practices wasn’t.

Neil Sikka: You. The mobile was, um, was not me.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:06:30] was not called Barbican as well.

Neil Sikka: No, that was called mobile. I think it was called Mobile Dental Services. [00:06:35] And that was run by a chap called Mark Trupp at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So how quickly did it get to ten [00:06:40] practices?

Neil Sikka: I think I started in 92 and [00:06:45] I think by 2002 I was at ten practices, but I opened them [00:06:50] all organically. I didn’t make any acquisitions. I would spot a place where I felt [00:06:55] there wasn’t, um, much dentistry being provided, or there was a new building [00:07:00] going up with thousands of employees going in, and that’s how I would approach it.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:05] sort of self-finance. You didn’t have.

Neil Sikka: Self-financed. I didn’t take any debt because as I grew, [00:07:10] I, you know, you know, you can lease equipment. You just have to pay for the fit out. And [00:07:15] I just did it very gradually, if I’m honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so that gradual is it, it’s a one a year every [00:07:20] year. And I guess you were sinking every dollar back in.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Busy time. And [00:07:25] it wasn’t a time where I mean now it’s a very common story, but back then it was kind of rare for multiple [00:07:30] practice. Yeah. At that rate.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. It’s [00:07:35] um. Yeah, I mean, but I had a great team and also geographically I was only in [00:07:40] central London, so I was in the city, I was in the Canary in Canary Wharf and I was in the West [00:07:45] End and that was it.

Payman Langroudi: And what do you think your value add was? I mean, was it the fact that [00:07:50] you were good at going to the companies and getting that deal done? Or [00:07:55] are you a, you know, an expert at operations?

Neil Sikka: I think, you [00:08:00] know, I mean, you’ve run your own practice in the past. Do you know what it’s like you have to learn on the job. Yeah. [00:08:05] And you I just had this idea. Yeah. Of I did not I didn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it took.

Neil Sikka: At the [00:08:10] time. Yeah. And it’s like you just fall into it, don’t you? And you go, well I’m not, I don’t know [00:08:15] if I’m a salesman, but I’ve got this idea and I think it sells itself. I didn’t think I had to sell it to anybody [00:08:20] because it was so obvious, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Um, but I mean, for instance, you’ve got Barclays [00:08:25] Bank in Canary Wharf. How did you figure out who to go to and what to say?

Neil Sikka: And [00:08:30] so in those days, you could get hold of the name of the HR director, [00:08:35] the human resources director, or, um, sometimes it was in the people team. They had different [00:08:40] titles, but it was basically the person that was running the, the benefits for, [00:08:45] for the staff, for staff, and you could get in the name and the number [00:08:50] in those days, try and do it now. It’s almost impossible to get through because there’s so [00:08:55] many gateways.

Payman Langroudi: That you got to.

Neil Sikka: Pass through. But in those days, I could literally make a call. And [00:09:00] that was before email, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s literally.

Payman Langroudi: Said the [00:09:05] pitch just like that, just the way you just described it.

Neil Sikka: So what’s interesting is how it first started [00:09:10] was that, um, I rented premises from a company called Barbican [00:09:15] Health. Mhm. Um, and they would give us the access [00:09:20] to their corporate clients. Um and that’s how it first started. But then eventually we [00:09:25] would do our own marketing and literally just kind of get on the phone and say, [00:09:30] we’ve got this idea. Can we send you some details? We’re just around the corner. And often it would start by going, we’ll, [00:09:35] we’ll try you out. Um, so what I’d say is anybody [00:09:40] with an emergency from your company, you call us, we will see them on the day. Anyone [00:09:45] in trouble. And that’s the way that. And we had that as a that was our policy throughout. [00:09:50] Actually, that was one of the best ways we grew the business, because we promised that we would move the diary [00:09:55] around to make sure that we would get someone out of pain. And I think if you do that, you’ve got a patient for life. [00:10:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Neil Sikka: Because they value the fact that you’ve, you know, you’ve gone the extra mile [00:10:05] for them. I really, it was a very personal business and I like baby.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:10:10] And I like to know the fact that I knew everybody in the business. And I found that I was starting to go into [00:10:15] practices and I didn’t recognise new employees that were being taken on. And I kind of thought, [00:10:20] oh, what’s, you know, what’s happening? Am I losing control? Or and it wasn’t so much that I thought. And then I [00:10:25] looked at the structure of the business. We didn’t have any central costs. So I outsourced finance, [00:10:30] admin, PR, marketing. But I felt that if we were going [00:10:35] to get to the next level from ten practices, we probably had to be 50 because we’d have [00:10:40] to justify the central costs that were then going to come in. Yeah. And I thought, if I’m going to set up [00:10:45] that team, then I’ve got to really leverage the business and grow it considerably. And [00:10:50] I probably had been doing it nearly 20 years by then, and I thought, maybe I’m ready [00:10:55] for a new challenge. It’s really interesting because people always say, well, how did you know who to sell [00:11:00] to? And I think that’s always a, an interesting point because, [00:11:05] because it depends what you want out of it. Now, I knew I didn’t want [00:11:10] to leave the business. I wanted to continue to be heavily involved. So for me, the [00:11:15] number one thing that was important was aligning our culture and values. What type of [00:11:20] business was going to take on, you know, my practices, [00:11:25] but also my people. So how are my people going to be treated [00:11:30] in this new business?

Payman Langroudi: But so this alignment of values factor, [00:11:35] how how important was that? I mean, was that massive? No. But was there another [00:11:40] group offering you more money? But the but the, uh, those things weren’t in [00:11:45] place. Yeah. Was it something like that?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I, you potentially left [00:11:50] money on the table to make sure that your team were looked after properly. Yeah. That’s [00:11:55] nice.

Neil Sikka: And so to me, it was about longevity. It was about alignment [00:12:00] of cultural values. And you know what the future might hold. And also that synergy of the [00:12:05] approach. So, you know, they they’ve actually termed it now where you [00:12:10] have, um, where you have a company that has a product and provision and they [00:12:15] align the two, they call it a pay vida. Mhm. Um, and I’m sure you’re aware of that, but [00:12:20] at the time that’s fair. That was fairly new. Um, [00:12:25] and the fact that I was doing, and the fact that Bupa Bupa was doing it was very aligned into the [00:12:30] way that I could see the growth of the business. So that was also important as well, because I wanted [00:12:35] to see that my own practices and my own people could grow and develop in a way [00:12:40] that I probably couldn’t give them. Yeah. Um, you know, within a much larger infrastructure. [00:12:45]

Payman Langroudi: And what were the headlines as far as the size of the business, number of people, number [00:12:50] of patients turnover at that point? Well.

Neil Sikka: We were, um, [00:12:55] as I say, ten practices. We were seeing about 50,000 patients a year. [00:13:00] Um, I think we may have been about 160 people across [00:13:05] all practices. So, you know, it wasn’t big by modern [00:13:10] terms of what a corporate and it was, but it was just about manageable in [00:13:15] the structure that we had. Um, and yeah, [00:13:20] and, you know, and we were general Dental, but we, we started to bring in the specialisms [00:13:25] as time went on and as more specialisms developed, because initially there were [00:13:30] very few specialists around in the early 90s, it, it’s grown more and more as time [00:13:35] has gone on. And so you had your specialist only practices that you would [00:13:40] refer your patients to. But like all practices, we started to bring that in-house as [00:13:45] time went on as well. So we wanted to provide a really comprehensive service within [00:13:50] our own ecosystem, if you like.

Payman Langroudi: What interests me, though, is [00:13:55] when I look at your LinkedIn and I see this just cereal [00:14:00] social enterprise serial entrepreneur, [00:14:05] you know, there’s so many things you’ve done since that time that, you know, the [00:14:10] next man might have sat back, had a holiday and [00:14:15] done nothing. But but you keep on doing things. And really what I’m interested [00:14:20] in is that sort of relationship between sort of risk and reward. And I don’t necessarily [00:14:25] even mean financial risk and financial reward. I mean, when a new thing comes along, [00:14:30] you talk to someone somewhere and they say, I don’t know. I looked at one of your things. [00:14:35] It was like trying to make the nursing training pathway better. Yeah. [00:14:40] If someone said that to me, I would look at just the pain [00:14:45] points in that the next man would look at the sort of the opportunities [00:14:50] in that. And so it looks to me like you wouldn’t have done all the things that [00:14:55] you’ve done if you weren’t quite an optimist, number one, but also not [00:15:00] the kind of person who dwells on risk.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I [00:15:05] mean, I think when I was younger, you didn’t I didn’t think about risk because I think what do I have to risk? You know, at the end [00:15:10] of the day, you had nothing to lose. You know, I, I mean, in those days, you could set up [00:15:15] a practice. I sold my car and set up the first practice. That was it. You [00:15:20] know.

Payman Langroudi: You get 100% loan, 110, 110% loan, I remember.

Neil Sikka: Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Neil Sikka: So? [00:15:25] So there was no risk to me. I said, well, what have I got to lose? It’s all or nothing. I mean, I was 25 years old. I [00:15:30] wouldn’t think like that now, but I think from [00:15:35] a you talk about the community aspect? I think it’s always been something that’s been close to my heart [00:15:40] trying to, um, I think, you know, I think we’re in a really privileged position [00:15:45] as a clinician, as dentist in healthcare, you know, we’re in a real position to be able to [00:15:50] improve people’s lives. Yeah. And I think when you can do that and really make a difference [00:15:55] to people that just don’t have access to care, um, it’s [00:16:00] really life fulfilling. And that’s why I’ve, I’ve been involved in, [00:16:05] you’ll have seen that I’ve done stuff in India.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So go through that one. There’s a train, the train.

Neil Sikka: So [00:16:10] I mean, it was a simple thing. There’s a train in India called um the Lifeline Express [00:16:15] and it’s a hospital train that parks up in the sidings of a, you [00:16:20] know, you know, that the railways in, in India are the backbone of the country. [00:16:25] Everybody who, you know, the amount of people that travel on trains in India. So [00:16:30] what the train is, is they park on the sidings for, for about six months and they have a hospital, they have [00:16:35] eye surgery, orthopaedic surgery, they have operating theatres on board. [00:16:40] And I saw this and I thought, they don’t have a Dental carriage on the back, do they? So I wrote to them [00:16:45] and I said, I’ve got this idea about, you know, providing dentistry alongside everything [00:16:50] else. And they went, oh, we don’t think there’s a call for it. And I thought, really? Anyway, they [00:16:55] wrote back to me about six months later and said, we thought about your idea and we thought, we’ll try it out. [00:17:00] And we were inundated. Um, well, I wasn’t surprised really, because, you know, [00:17:05] it’s not like there’s an NHS in India providing dental care. It’s the last thing that [00:17:10] people think about. So I said, if you’re willing, you can pay for a dental carriage. We’ll put a couple of [00:17:15] chairs in there, come out for the inauguration treat, treat, um, meet the team and [00:17:20] provide some treatment. What I wanted to do and what I’ve always done in these situations [00:17:25] is I want to plug into an organisation that already has a really good infrastructure where dentistry [00:17:30] could be something you can add on, but it’s not something that once I’ve provided [00:17:35] the initial funding that I have to continue to be involved in, because they can they can [00:17:40] run with it.

Neil Sikka: And that’s what’s happened with the Lifeline Express. They’ve got the Dental carriage on. They, [00:17:45] um, they now they used to accept um international [00:17:50] volunteers. Um and so I used to have a kind of a spreadsheet of people that want to [00:17:55] get involved. And I’d let them know when there was a project going on because they changed their, their, um, their positioning [00:18:00] in the country and, but they plan it quite a long way ahead. Um, [00:18:05] and so, um, they, what they do now [00:18:10] is that they plan ahead, contact the local um, hospital, dental hospital, [00:18:15] college and get medical and dental volunteers to come and work because [00:18:20] they have to, when they’re doing orthopaedic surgery or something like that, you’ve got quite a lot of planning. You’ve got to know your cases, [00:18:25] you’ve got to know what you’re going to, who you’re going to treat, what you’re going to do about aftercare. All these things [00:18:30] are really important, um, less so for dentistry if you’re doing, which is pretty [00:18:35] much what we’re doing is emergency care because the call, you know, is so large, so [00:18:40] many people don’t get any access to care. And when you see the people that you treat there that have been [00:18:45] suffering and, and some of them have walked for miles and miles to get there. [00:18:50] And then they’re sitting in a 50 degree heat outside on the platform, waiting [00:18:55] for us in a nice air conditioned carriage to come out and get them in. You realise how [00:19:00] important it is to them. So, um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You paid [00:19:05] for that personally. Yeah. And just as an act of philanthropy. [00:19:10]

Neil Sikka: Well, yeah. But it was something that gave me incredible joy to be involved [00:19:15] in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure it did. Um, have you heard about giving directly?

Neil Sikka: No. [00:19:20] Is that a is that a platform or is it a.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a charity. But the idea is that, um, [00:19:25] that guy who’s got the toothache if you give him. $20 [00:19:30] directly. Give him the cash.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: $20? [00:19:35] Yeah, he’ll spend it better than you can. Yeah. [00:19:40] Because he’ll he’ll go find the local dentist guy who’ll pull his tooth out for $2. [00:19:45] Right. But the cost of you and that train and all that is so much [00:19:50] higher than giving each of those patients that you treated $20 [00:19:55] to go and find their own. Now, now, of course you don’t. You don’t actually feel the [00:20:00] difference that you’re making. Yeah. But interesting idea that, you know, that me [00:20:05] going over somewhere, paying for something and providing [00:20:10] the service that I think people need is a lot less efficient than me dropping [00:20:15] $20 in someone’s hand.

Neil Sikka: I would probably challenge that. I mean, I [00:20:20] paid for the carriage and the and the units to go on there, but we’ve treated over half a million people. [00:20:25] So I think what I would have to spend to give [00:20:30] people a certain amount of money to then spend on their teeth would be far more than the half a [00:20:35] million people that we’ve treated on the Lifeline Express. And also, you’ve got [00:20:40] to remember you, you give someone $20, how do you know they’re going to spend it on their teeth?

Payman Langroudi: Well, you know, it’s [00:20:45] not for you to decide that.

Neil Sikka: That’s also.

Payman Langroudi: True. It is not for you to decide.

Neil Sikka: I [00:20:50] suppose for me, it’s like, you know, I have a skill, I have knowledge and [00:20:55] I have experience, and I want to use that for the benefit of those people [00:21:00] that can access it. So for me, I can give that money to [00:21:05] anyone anyway, regardless, but I’d want to use my skills and experience to [00:21:10] benefit people.

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it. Of course I get it. I just think it’s an interesting thing, [00:21:15] you know, that if you do the do the maths, that you’re challenging the maths. Of course, half [00:21:20] a million sounds like a lot of humans.

Neil Sikka: It’s a lot of people and they’re incredibly efficient. I [00:21:25] think I started it in 2010. So 15 years.

Speaker 4: It’s not that long for half [00:21:30] a million people.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s very interesting. So do you still go back or not?

Neil Sikka: I haven’t [00:21:35] been back for a few years now, not since Covid. But I do other things. Um, [00:21:40] I worked on a, I volunteered and I didn’t provide anything to that [00:21:45] thing called mercy ships. I don’t know if you’ve heard of mercy ships, where they go around Africa and they park up [00:21:50] this massive great cruise liner, which has incredible funding, amazing operating [00:21:55] theatres. I mean, that is one very slick operation. And what they do is they take [00:22:00] over, um, part of a hospital on land and turn it into a kind of a ten surgery, [00:22:05] mobile practice, dental practice, ten chairs. And then people fly in for 2 or 3 weeks [00:22:10] and give their time. I mean, that’s an incredible experience. I was, I was rude because [00:22:15] you all stay on the on the ship. And I was rooming with a plastic surgeon from California [00:22:20] who had come in and flown in for a month to treat non-malignant tumours. [00:22:25] Surgical tumours that in in the West you would treat immediately. [00:22:30] But they sit there for years and years and years in Africa. So that’s you know, but the [00:22:35] I think and I haven’t done a lot of international stuff more recently because [00:22:40] we’re very embedded with Dentaid. So Dentaid [00:22:45] is another charity that I supported right at the beginning 2005, 2006, and [00:22:50] I helped them to design a chair that’s still in use.

Neil Sikka: Because if you imagine most, most [00:22:55] charities, when they go and do these, um, these kind of camps, [00:23:00] they’ll be using plastic chairs and whatever. And actually it’s very difficult when you’re trying to extract [00:23:05] teeth or you’re trying to do treatment when you haven’t got any support behind you. So we designed a chair [00:23:10] which had a which, which you headrest, a headrest at the back, but also flat seating as well. [00:23:15] So it was almost like a reclining chair, but it was hand winched. And [00:23:20] they still sell that chair now in Dentaid. But we’re I mean, I’ve always been a massive [00:23:25] supporter of Dental and, and, um, volunteered with them, but with [00:23:30] my relationship through Bupa, they are now our main charity partner for Bupa Dental [00:23:35] Care. So we’ve funded, um, a solar panel powered unit, which is much [00:23:40] more lightweight that can go into much more, um, difficult to reach places, um, [00:23:45] city centres where, you know, they’ve got, they’ve got paid massive, they get charged massive congestion [00:23:50] charges unless they’ve got a um, a Ulez compliant um van. [00:23:55] We provide volunteers all over the country and that relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Through Bupa. [00:24:00]

Neil Sikka: Through Bupa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So, you know, that was the way that I saw it when I came, when I, when I first we [00:24:05] created a foundation charity committee, which is funded by a, a big [00:24:10] kind of main foundation, but we have our own dental charity foundation. And [00:24:15] I pushed and I became the chair of it initially. And, um, and I said, [00:24:20] I think this is the perfect match because we have 8000 people [00:24:25] all over the country. Um, they need volunteers all the time. And [00:24:30] we can provide those opportunities to our staff, to our clinicians, to our staff, [00:24:35] to volunteer to work on these units. And I regularly volunteer with them.

Payman Langroudi: So what’s the typical [00:24:40] time amount of time that a clinician might give to that?

Neil Sikka: Well, not as much [00:24:45] as you’d like, I suppose, but a week. No, we just do a day a day literally. Because you know, [00:24:50] the whole point initially they were all a Dentaid were only based really in the South, um [00:24:55] around Southampton way. Um, but as they’ve grown, they started with just one unit. They’ve [00:25:00] now got 12 mobile units going all over the country. We’ve taken them to Northern Ireland, to [00:25:05] our practices there and our volunteers um have got involved there. We’ve now got a northern hub [00:25:10] where we’re providing treatment in Yorkshire and further north. And they’re all, you [00:25:15] know, they’re like these, all these vans going all over the country now providing free treatment to the homeless [00:25:20] and the vulnerable. Our job is to support them financially, provide volunteers, [00:25:25] and what they do is the logistics. They do all the organisation, they do the liaison [00:25:30] with the charities. Because ultimately, if you’re a clinician and you turn up, you want to treat patients, [00:25:35] you don’t want to be sitting there, you’re giving your time for a day, but you can just give a day. Um, [00:25:40] and they have different camps on different days.

Payman Langroudi: So every dentist knows that they’ve got that opportunity. [00:25:45] If they want to give their time, they can through you and Dental.

Neil Sikka: And [00:25:50] not just the dentists the nurses can volunteer to work on. And also the other [00:25:55] great thing is that they’re always looking for logistics support as well. So people to take medical histories, people [00:26:00] to drive the vans. So you if you’re even if you’re non-clinical, you can [00:26:05] still get involved.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. So I’ve always thought this year that if there was a easily [00:26:10] accessible way for, let’s just call it young dentists [00:26:15] to give a day, a week, a fortnight to give their skills [00:26:20] loads and loads and loads would do it. And I know there is, but it’s [00:26:25] not publicised properly. I’m going to this thing. Mobile smiles. Charity [00:26:30] thing.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: They they take people to. I don’t know Egypt and Namibia and [00:26:35] so forth. And it’s a kind of a ten day thing and it’s half of it is charity. And [00:26:40] then half of it, they go on holiday sort of thing. And I can understand why [00:26:45] a lot of people would do that if they knew about it. Right.

Neil Sikka: There’s a there’s a lot of that. [00:26:50] There are so many kind of oral health related charities that provide that kind [00:26:55] of opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: Linda Greenwald does something as well.

Neil Sikka: Linda does something, I think. And, um, [00:27:00] is it Mateusz? Uh, he, he has something in Africa that he provides. [00:27:05] There’s something that’s going on in, uh, in the Caribbean. I know that one of our dentists is involved. [00:27:10] There’s so many things like that going on. Bridge to aid, of course, has been around a long time. Even [00:27:15] Dental aid work in Cambodia. They work in Uganda, so they provide there [00:27:20] not just UK based. They’re very international as well in terms of. And they’ve grown enormously. [00:27:25] Um I always think that’s it’s great, but then you’ve got, if [00:27:30] you want to go abroad and do that, that’s, that’s kind of a week of your time. Yeah. As opposed to just say, [00:27:35] oh, I’ll do a day. Yeah. Which is, which is also a great thing to do as well.

Payman Langroudi: Crisis at Christmas. Yes. [00:27:40]

Neil Sikka: Another one. I’ve done that.

Payman Langroudi: Have you. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I that was in South London Boxing Day. [00:27:45] Um again really you know it’s it’s so easy for us [00:27:50] to do I, but I do it is interesting though when people ask me, I say, [00:27:55] well what actually treatment do you do? I say, well, I do a lot of extractions. And they go especially the some of the younger [00:28:00] dentists that maybe haven’t, you know, if you haven’t had the experience, there’s a potentially [00:28:05] sometimes a little bit of, um, reticence there. Yeah. Um, so [00:28:10] there is that bit of a barrier sometimes because of the type of treatment that you will be providing to a [00:28:15] lot of people.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Tell me about your upbringing.

Neil Sikka: So [00:28:20] I’m Indian born and bred. So my dad, uh, [00:28:25] is a was an eye surgeon. He came over from India in the late 50s. [00:28:30] Um, and he did his, he wanted [00:28:35] to do his FRCs, Royal College of Surgeons. So you couldn’t do that in India. [00:28:40] He did that here and he stayed. And he got a consultant post in Lincolnshire.

Payman Langroudi: Before you were [00:28:45] born.

Neil Sikka: Uh, as I was born.

Payman Langroudi: As you were born. So I was you were born here.

Neil Sikka: I was born in Bradford.

Payman Langroudi: Uh huh. [00:28:50]

Neil Sikka: Um, and then at six months old, he got the consultant post. He was a senior registrar in Bradford Royal [00:28:55] Infirmary. He then, um.

Payman Langroudi: Which was no mean feat for an Indian [00:29:00] back then.

Neil Sikka: Well, it was interesting, actually, because, um, you know, there were very [00:29:05] few Asian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um clinicians in the UK at that time. And [00:29:10] I think he was one of two Asian consultants that were appointed. Um, [00:29:15] and I mean, there’s a bit of a story behind that. He was appointed, um, [00:29:20] I think it was 1964. Um. 6364 [00:29:25] and he went for his interview and they appointed him. And then um, [00:29:30] when the local medical community found out that he was Indian, there was a massive uproar [00:29:35] and they tried to remove him, but his, um, he had a, um, [00:29:40] um, he had a reference from a, a professor at [00:29:45] Moorfields and the professor wrote to them and said, you know, you have to give me a very good reason [00:29:50] why you’re not giving him this job, having already appointed him. So he was then reappointed [00:29:55] and he was there for until until he died. And my mum’s [00:30:00] a doctor.

Payman Langroudi: As well as well.

Neil Sikka: We actually have 49 I think at last count, 49 [00:30:05] medically qualified people in our family.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of doctor is your mum?

Neil Sikka: Uh, [00:30:10] she was, she did all sorts. She was GP Psychiatry. Sexual health. [00:30:15] She’s done everything. I mean, she worked. She’s not she’s still alive. She’s. She lives [00:30:20] up in Lincolnshire in the family house. And she was working until Covid aged [00:30:25] 89.

Payman Langroudi: Wow.

Neil Sikka: And even now I say to her, she says to me, I’d still be working if it wasn’t [00:30:30] for Covid. And I’m like, mum, you’re 93.

Payman Langroudi: So childhood memories of [00:30:35] a kid who’s got two incredibly busy doctor parents. I [00:30:40] guess for you, it just felt normal that, you know, your, your, your [00:30:45] job takes over your life. I mean, but for doctors, it really does. With surgeons [00:30:50] particularly, right?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, like you didn’t see your dad very much. Well, I, I. [00:30:55]

Neil Sikka: I probably saw him a reasonable amount, but, [00:31:00] um, I think my mum probably worked even longer hours than my dad really. [00:31:05] I mean, but they, they, they juggled it and they made it work. I mean, I had two older sisters [00:31:10] And, um, so I was five years younger than my, my first [00:31:15] sister and then my other sister was, um, nine years older than me, so they were [00:31:20] around a bit. Um, but I was, I was at home until I was 11 [00:31:25] and then I went to boarding school. So then, you know, and I think they did that because they [00:31:30] were my, both my sisters were much older by then. And my, um, [00:31:35] parents probably thought, you know, you’re going to be at home a bit on your own. So this is a good idea. And I, [00:31:40] and I loved, you know, I loved sport, I loved music and being in a boarding school environment [00:31:45] was great for me because I was just kept busy every single moment of the day.

Payman Langroudi: You took to that. Well [00:31:50] did.

Neil Sikka: You? I took to it really well.

Payman Langroudi: Not everyone does.

Neil Sikka: No, no.

Payman Langroudi: Which school was it?

Neil Sikka: A place called Oundle, [00:31:55] which is near Oundle. Oh, UNDN okay. Which is near Peterborough.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. [00:32:00] So it’s kind of close to home.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Two hours? Yeah, two hours from Grimsby, [00:32:05] which is where home was.

Payman Langroudi: And so this sort of, uh, can do attitude [00:32:10] that you’ve got.

Neil Sikka: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Can you put it back [00:32:15] to some point in childhood? I mean, were you always that.

Neil Sikka: No, I don’t think I was. [00:32:20]

Payman Langroudi: What was the inflection point that made you turn into this person that, you know, like sort of I [00:32:25] mean, I know maybe you don’t want to be characterised as this, but I would say a risk taker. [00:32:30] You know, someone, someone, someone, someone who thinks outside the box completely and, [00:32:35] you know, get stuff done and then even the charitable side of it. Like what did [00:32:40] you see the roots of that?

Neil Sikka: Well, you know, I was [00:32:45] not particularly academic. I wasn’t particularly, um, [00:32:50] focussed, if I’m honest. Um, but I think it was when I went to university, [00:32:55] I just loved doing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Where did you study.

Neil Sikka: Uh Leeds and I, [00:33:00] and I loved, um.

Payman Langroudi: I love which student were you? The swotty one. [00:33:05]

Neil Sikka: No, I wouldn’t say I was the most No, [00:33:10] I don’t think so. I was I was kind of middle of the range. I [00:33:15] think I did enough, but I also enjoyed what I did and I loved the practical side of [00:33:20] it. Um, and, and, and I probably loved the people side of it [00:33:25] too. Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the side of dentistry I miss since I stopped, you [00:33:30] know. So we were talking before that you still doing one day a week?

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I was doing one day a week [00:33:35] from around 22,007 to [00:33:40] 2012 when I, when I completely stopped. And, um, [00:33:45] then I had a bad day, basically.

Neil Sikka: And then you thought, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: It enough, you know? [00:33:50] Um, but I do miss it. And it’s only when you fully stop that you realise [00:33:55] what you do miss about the job. Because I’ve had people sitting where you’re sitting telling [00:34:00] me the thing they love about the job. Sometimes the thing I hated most about the job is [00:34:05] what someone else loved about it. For instance, I’m not that interested in Meccano [00:34:10] like, you know.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Putting the the full mouth rehab in and it all fits. [00:34:15] I’m sure it’s great when you’ve you’ve the guy behind the whole thing. Yeah. But I was never I never got far enough in the industry [00:34:20] to be that guy.

Neil Sikka: Me neither.

Payman Langroudi: But the conversations [00:34:25] and maybe this is why I do a podcast now, the conversations you have with patients [00:34:30] are golden, but you don’t really realise it when you’re a dentist. [00:34:35] When you’re a dentist, in a way, people are in the way of your job in a way. Um, [00:34:40] but I only realised how much I learned from my patients and, [00:34:45] you know, just the social interaction with all different parts of society [00:34:50] that you get by being a general dentist. Yeah. Whether private or NHS, [00:34:55] you get to meet all different types of people and understand [00:35:00] different things from their lives. And then as the families grow up and all that. [00:35:05] And I was in private dentistry. The nice thing about private dentistry is that talking to your patient is a big part of [00:35:10] the job.

Neil Sikka: Oh, definitely. It’s building that relationship. I mean, I do a day a week now. I’ve [00:35:15] been doing a day a week. It’s funny, every when I, when I started the business, I said, I’m going to give up [00:35:20] a day, a week for every practice that I open. But once I got to five, I said, I’m not giving up any more days. So [00:35:25] I stopped till one day a week, but I didn’t. I haven’t seen any new patients for probably 25 [00:35:30] years.

Payman Langroudi: So they’re just your friends?

Neil Sikka: Well, I mean, I do see a [00:35:35] lot of family and friends, but a lot of them have become friends.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I mean.

Neil Sikka: As [00:35:40] well, because and it’s really, it takes quite a long time to get to know people. You think. Oh, a couple of years and you [00:35:45] know, you’ll know them really well, but you’re only seeing a snapshot of them. That’s right. For twice a year, [00:35:50] if you, you know, unless you’re doing in depth treatment. Um, but and it takes [00:35:55] that long time, but I’ve got this group now who I just love to see. You know, I love to [00:36:00] hear what they’re up to, how the family’s doing. I see that kids, I see some of their grandkids. [00:36:05] Um, and that’s a, you know, it’s a, and I’m just a solid [00:36:10] general dentist that tries to do the right thing for their patients. I’m not I mean, I have [00:36:15] embraced technology, you know, and I, one of my roles at Bupa is to look at innovation [00:36:20] and how we can apply that, um, efficiently within [00:36:25] our dental practice environment, which is advantageous for our clinicians, but also for our [00:36:30] patients and for the business. Um, so I have, I embrace technology, [00:36:35] but I wouldn’t say I’m like, well, like you said, I don’t do big full mouth rehabs or anything [00:36:40] like that. We’ve got plenty of specialists in the business that can do all that. Um, but I’ve tried [00:36:45] to look after my patients in the right way. The only thing now is I, you know, [00:36:50] when you see someone for 30 years, you start to look at the stuff you did 20 years ago that’s [00:36:55] still there. And you go.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s the best teacher. It’s the best teacher.

Neil Sikka: I’m gonna have to start looking at this [00:37:00] now, stuff that is starting to need replacing.

Payman Langroudi: The best teacher. Yeah. Because [00:37:05] sometimes, I mean, the longest I ever stayed anywhere was three, four years. But even in three, four years, [00:37:10] some stuff failed. Oh, some stuff failed. Yeah. And and it teaches you and it’s interesting. [00:37:15] We have a bit in this podcast. You said you’d listened before about mistakes. Yeah. And to try [00:37:20] and learn from each other’s mistakes a little bit because we tend to hide mistakes [00:37:25] in medical generally. You know, that black box thinking idea, you know that it’s [00:37:30] all about blame in medical, isn’t it?

Speaker 5: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what comes to mind? Let’s [00:37:35] let’s get to that darker part of the pod. What comes to mind mistakes wise clinically? [00:37:40] I think something that changed the way you practice.

Neil Sikka: I think you’re absolutely [00:37:45] right. You learn from your mistakes. And I will often see stuff that I’ve [00:37:50] done even five years ago. And you know what? I can do that better now. So I challenge myself [00:37:55] to come to improve all the time. And if I’m not doing that, [00:38:00] then I’m not doing right by my patients. So but I still have stuff that I’m seeing [00:38:05] that I did 30 years ago that’s still going strong. And my patients, especially when I say [00:38:10] to them, you know, this is only going to last ten years. And they, they laugh at me when they come and say, you’re not making any money out of me, Neil. [00:38:15] That’s okay. But I think what’s interesting about mistakes is [00:38:20] the approach to being a clinician. And I think we talk about [00:38:25] clinical excellence as being the most important thing. But I kind of I [00:38:30] think what I’ve learned as time has gone on, and especially having to run [00:38:35] my own business with, you know, lots of clinicians from different types of backgrounds [00:38:40] and different types of approaches is not so much about clinical excellence, but [00:38:45] how you become an excellent clinician. And, you know, we’re [00:38:50] in the medical profession, love our alliterative mnemonics. You know, we [00:38:55] remember the facial nerves and the cranial nerves and the things that we can’t repeat [00:39:00] now and how we remembered them.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I always think now, and I try [00:39:05] and I use that, I still use that same approach and I think about what makes an [00:39:10] excellent clinician as opposed to clinical excellence. And I think about, you know, obviously your clinical skills have got [00:39:15] to be really important. But then I think your commercial skills, you’ve got to understand your [00:39:20] value to yourself, your value to the patient and your value to the business that you work [00:39:25] in. Um, I think you’ve got to, as I said, you’ve got to constantly want [00:39:30] to improve. So that’s not just about looking at your work and saying, how could have [00:39:35] I done that better? A few years down the line. But also CPD is really important. And [00:39:40] then I think the fourth one is communication. You know, you’ve got to be [00:39:45] a good communicator or learn how to be a good communicator, a good listener to your patients, [00:39:50] but also to the people that you work with. You can’t be a good team member unless you’re a good communicator. [00:39:55] And I think finally, compassion. I think we’re in a profession [00:40:00] where we have to be compassionate. And if we can do those five things, I think those are the the [00:40:05] basic tenets of being an excellent clinician.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But I want some examples of where one [00:40:10] of those things failed.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God, I probably miss it. I mean, I can’t remember [00:40:15] the last time I’ve actually looked at a treatment as, as completely failed apart [00:40:20] from actually, no, that’s not true. Um, there was an implant, um, [00:40:25] that had failed implants. No, I don’t place I restore, but I can remember [00:40:30] recently where an implant had failed on a patient. And the reason why it [00:40:35] had probably failed was because I hadn’t realised what a bruxas they were. And so [00:40:40] I produced a cram, put it in place and the implant looked perfect. Um, I thought [00:40:45] the restoration was perfect. A year later, the implant basically fell out. Um, [00:40:50] and looking at his bite again, um, it was probably [00:40:55] down to the fact that I hadn’t properly adjusted the occlusion to allow [00:41:00] for his bruxism. So that’s a simple.

Payman Langroudi: The cause of most mistakes, even [00:41:05] in bleaching.

Neil Sikka: But then you are still learning.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The most important thing in [00:41:10] bleaching is bruxism. Can you believe it? Ridiculous. It just gets in the way, doesn’t [00:41:15] it? At every turn. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And probably one of the most misunderstood [00:41:20] elements of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So, okay, there was that case. [00:41:25] Do you want to talk about business mistakes, like in the Barbican [00:41:30] years? Did you. Was there what was the darkest day?

Neil Sikka: I [00:41:35] think one of the darkest days is one of my corporate [00:41:40] clients rang up, really concerned about the [00:41:45] treatment that one of their employees had received from one of my dentists. And there was [00:41:50] an underlying theme that they might pull the whole contract, even though I had 2000 employees on [00:41:55] a Dental plan.

Payman Langroudi: Over one patient, what was the situation?

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:42:00] the dentist had, um, fitted a crown post crown and said, [00:42:05] oh, this will last you forever. And it fell out.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. [00:42:10]

Neil Sikka: Never say that. Especially about a.

Payman Langroudi: Crown.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. And [00:42:15] it would come out and the but the patient had kicked up a fuss [00:42:20] and they were very senior in the organisation. And so that was quite [00:42:25] a dark moment. And I managed to to pull it back and um they remained a client [00:42:30] for the rest of the time. Um and I think that was quite tough.

Payman Langroudi: It must [00:42:35] have been a darker moment than that though.

Neil Sikka: I think.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not have like a, I don’t know, a senior member [00:42:40] of staff suddenly leave?

Neil Sikka: Well, I had a, I had a quite a difficult period. [00:42:45] I had a, um, you know, I had a partner at the beginning and we [00:42:50] didn’t get on. Um and it was for both of us, I think it was, it was a [00:42:55] dark time. It wasn’t just me. Um, and I think we just weren’t well matched. We [00:43:00] were put together, we didn’t really know each other. And um, you know, that was quite [00:43:05] a dark time to try and extricate both of ourselves in the [00:43:10] right way. Um, from that.

Payman Langroudi: How many practices in were you before that [00:43:15] happened?

Neil Sikka: Uh, two practices.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so very early on. And were you 50/50 partners? [00:43:20] Mhm. Yeah. I guess that must have been a challenge, right?

Neil Sikka: But I, you know, we sorted [00:43:25] it out, moved forward.

Payman Langroudi: You’re no longer friends. You [00:43:30] were never friends in the first place.

Neil Sikka: I think we were ever really friends, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know how some people [00:43:35] can do business with anybody? And then other people, myself [00:43:40] included, can only do business with people you fully trust? Um, [00:43:45] do you know what I mean by that? I’ve got some friends there. Like they’re on the they’ve got [00:43:50] a share in 1214 companies. And I’m like, well, how the hell did you [00:43:55] come across 14 different people like that, that you fully trust and trust isn’t even part of it. [00:44:00] They just get their bit done. Yeah. And they make sure everyone else [00:44:05] does their bit and that’s that end of it. Whereas for me, it feels like almost [00:44:10] like a marriage and you have to fully trust this person.

Neil Sikka: And, and yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Probably a more [00:44:15] unsuccessful way of living.

Neil Sikka: I’m a bit of the, I probably, I learned early on actually, [00:44:20] um, from somebody that and I was like, you, I thought you have to [00:44:25] get on really well and have to be buddies and kind of friends. Yeah. With people that you do [00:44:30] business with. And I learned from very on because I, there was somebody I was negotiating with, um, [00:44:35] who was really, I didn’t, didn’t like very much at all. And I don’t think he liked me [00:44:40] and, and um, he said that to me once he said, he said, the thing is, Neil, you don’t really [00:44:45] understand. Um, and I was quite young at the time and he said, you don’t understand Neil. You know, you [00:44:50] don’t have to like the people you do business with. You just have to get the job done. Yeah. And I kind of [00:44:55] learned that because I’m not going out for dinner with you. I’m not going out for a beer. As long as we are both, um, [00:45:00] fulfilling our needs to that relationship, that’s all [00:45:05] you need.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um, and I think in [00:45:10] certain situations that works really well, but I think it does help a lot [00:45:15] with the people that you work with within a business. So the people that you employ, for instance, [00:45:20] whatever that you, you like and trust them, I think that’s a different relationship than, [00:45:25] um, you know, kind of business relationships in terms of contract relationships [00:45:30] with external providers.

Payman Langroudi: How did you take to going from, you know, a [00:45:35] small business to a gigantic business like Bupa? Did you, you know, manage the [00:45:40] sort of politics, call it the corporate speak the [00:45:45] way that I don’t know, in huge organisations, you really aren’t free to say what you want. Whereas [00:45:50] in your own business you were ahead of that business. You probably. I did, [00:45:55] you did it go easily for you or did you find it quite funny?

Neil Sikka: My wife is the one that says [00:46:00] that you. I find it really surprising that you transferred from being an owner manager of quite a large business [00:46:05] to being, um, you know, an employee effectively within [00:46:10] a and, and I have to say, I, [00:46:15] I don’t know if it would have worked for me 25 years ago because I was quite [00:46:20] headstrong in terms of what I wanted to do, where I was going, how I was going to get there. But I [00:46:25] loved being part of a team. Now, you know, I’m a cog in a wheel as opposed [00:46:30] to the only person that’s effectively driving the car.

Payman Langroudi: You you don’t get sleepless nights [00:46:35] like you used to, I suppose. Not in the.

Neil Sikka: Same.

Payman Langroudi: Way.

Neil Sikka: I probably you know, it’s interesting you [00:46:40] say that I probably, um, I never used to worry at all. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: I probably it’s not within you.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s I think with age you become more of a worrier. [00:46:50] I don’t know, maybe I don’t know, but sometimes I’m more anxious than I probably used to be about [00:46:55] much bigger things.

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. Yeah. That’s interesting.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So it’s, it is [00:47:00] interesting. But I, I, you know, I really enjoy being part of an organisation [00:47:05] that I love being part of. I mean, for me, the biggest thing about Bupa is it [00:47:10] doesn’t have shareholders doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Pay.

Neil Sikka: Dividends.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very different corporate isn’t it?

Neil Sikka: A very different structure. And [00:47:15] that’s what I love about it. It means that we are there trying to really [00:47:20] at the bottom line, when you know, our strapline is longer, happier, healthier lives, brave, caring, [00:47:25] responsible, um, and ultimately it permeates the fact [00:47:30] that we don’t have shareholders, we don’t pay dividends. That idea permeates throughout the whole business [00:47:35] because we’re not just doing it for the sake of these shareholders. They’re getting paid all this money at the top. [00:47:40] So it all goes back into the business for the benefit. So I really like that. [00:47:45] Um, you know, it’s a wonderful experience. So for me, it’s, it’s been, [00:47:50] it’s not been a difficult transition in many ways. And I think it’s [00:47:55] the funniest thing is I think a lot of people find difficult is when they own a practice [00:48:00] and then they sell it and they still working in that practice and things aren’t done the way that they want them to be done. [00:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The classic. Right.

Neil Sikka: It’s funny, I was like, so I still work in the same [00:48:10] practice that I, I put in place. I merged a couple of practices about 15 years [00:48:15] ago in that same building as the one that I work in, in central London, in Moorgate. And [00:48:20] now, and even when I, as soon as I sold it, it was like, well, that’s not [00:48:25] my problem. Now when something I don’t have to deal with that. And I was like, actually, that’s quite a breath of fresh air. Yeah, [00:48:30] I can come in. I concentrate on my dentistry. If there’s a problem, I highlight it, [00:48:35] but it’s not my job to deal with it. Whereas it was always my job.

Payman Langroudi: Ultimately [00:48:40] was your.

Neil Sikka: Job. Everything was my job. Yeah. You know, the buck always stopped with me at some stage. [00:48:45] Yeah. So you had to be on top of it all. But we have a very large organisation [00:48:50] now, so 8000 people in Bupa dental care alone.

Payman Langroudi: What do you struggle with [00:48:55] at Bupa?

Neil Sikka: What do I struggle with? [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: Not you only.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I think, you know, I think it’s the nature of any large organisation [00:49:05] is agility. Yeah. Get things done quickly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: We’ve [00:49:10] often got to jump through many more hoops than I’d like to implement something, [00:49:15] put a pilot in place, put a new product in. That kind [00:49:20] of stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Is used to it now.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I accept it and [00:49:25] I understand the reasons why. I mean, our brand, you know, we are the leading healthcare particularly strong. [00:49:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a particularly.

Neil Sikka: It’s also means we’ve got, we have a responsibility [00:49:35] to ensure that it stays strong. Yeah. And that means our governance and our compliance [00:49:40] and our, you know, our processes have to be such that we don’t put the [00:49:45] brand at risk. And so as an entrepreneur, I’m like, [00:49:50] come on, let’s just get this done and let’s just try it in a couple of practices and move on. You know, let’s do this. [00:49:55] But our processes don’t allow us to do that because our head is above the parapet. [00:50:00] You know, we’re easily shot down. And you know, if some if someone’s [00:50:05] going to go for anyone in terms of regulation and compliance, they’re going to come for us. So I, [00:50:10] you know, it’s something you have to accept, but it is something that I’ve, I’ve always found challenging [00:50:15] because I.

Payman Langroudi: Want to be difficult, right? Because you’re always acting from a defensive posture rather [00:50:20] than from an attacking posture, you know, as a, as, as the entrepreneur, that [00:50:25] you were 1 to 10 practices in ten years and, you know, great new [00:50:30] ideas and all of that. It’s a sort of an attack. It’s like, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a like, [00:50:35] like I said before, it’s, it’s having sort of the future is brighter than, you know, let’s just go for it. [00:50:40]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’m still the same.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, you know, you said it doesn’t have any shareholders. But, you know, [00:50:45] the brand is the shareholder in a way, isn’t it? Yeah. And it must be hard to make that transition. [00:50:50] At the same time, you’re right in that it doesn’t feel like another corporate when when when [00:50:55] you talk to the people at Bupa, they’re not just about [00:51:00] the bottom line, which a lot of corporates feel like they are. I mean, but I don’t mean [00:51:05] corporate dentists, even just companies.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, we I mean, we still [00:51:10] have to think about the bottom line. We have to, in order to in like in any business, [00:51:15] if you have to be able to make money to be able to reinvest for the benefit of [00:51:20] everybody. Yeah. But I think for me, I think I, I find that, [00:51:25] um, I, I still will have ideas, I still will push things forward, [00:51:30] but it’s not for me to say, no, you can’t do that. Someone else will say, no, we’re going to do this [00:51:35] this way. And we’re going to do have a policy and process in place to ensure that we do it properly. I say fine, I’ll just keep [00:51:40] bringing the ideas to the table. My job is to look at innovation, look at the future, look [00:51:45] at how the mouth body connection is going to change the way that we deliver dentistry [00:51:50] in the future. There’s somebody else’s job to say, whoa, let’s just [00:51:55] take one step at a time. So, and that’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: So I can I come to that unbelievable training [00:52:00] academy?

Neil Sikka: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, when was it? A month ago or so. Unbelievable. [00:52:05] Thank you. Really beautiful. And and not just pretty. [00:52:10] It wasn’t. It wasn’t about that. It was. It was well thought out. And I came away from it thinking [00:52:15] that, you know, only a Bupa could have done what [00:52:20] you guys did there, you know. So, you know, living up to your USP in [00:52:25] a way, what you said about the insurance product and the dental product, only Bupa can connect those [00:52:30] two dots because you have both sides, right? But knowing how slow things can [00:52:35] be, how long ago was the first time someone said, let’s do a training centre.

Neil Sikka: You know.

Payman Langroudi: How long [00:52:40] did that take?

Neil Sikka: I was surprised at how quick it went, really. I think it was. I remember the [00:52:45] first calls saying, do you think a training centre for us? Because they were looking [00:52:50] at all the business units and they were trying to put it all under one roof in terms of Bupa campus, [00:52:55] we call it. Yeah. And then the training academy would sit under the campus because [00:53:00] and they would and they were looking at all the business units, and they were asking [00:53:05] me and the other members of the team, do you think of Dental Training Academy would be of use and and [00:53:10] why? And basically, you know, we know that, um, there’s [00:53:15] a real challenge in terms of recruiting and retaining clinicians all around the country. And [00:53:20] we’re all competing for that for that pie. Um, so how can we separate ourselves? [00:53:25] So absolutely. I was right behind it. But I think, you know, I think start to finish probably 18 [00:53:30] months.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kidding.

Neil Sikka: No, I was I was blown over. Unless I’ve missed a year, I might have missed a year. It [00:53:35] feels like 18 months to me. It feels like it. And it’s been [00:53:40] you know, it’s been phenomenal because you talked about it. So many people externally have [00:53:45] talked about it. And that’s what we want because we want the industry, the Dental industry to take [00:53:50] us seriously, that we’re committed to really, you know, enabling [00:53:55] our clinical workforce to grow and develop. Um, and this is, you know, this is a [00:54:00] perfect way of doing it. So, you know, I was, I have to say, looking back, it’s probably one [00:54:05] of the quickest things we implemented.

Payman Langroudi: Very impressive. I mean, there was the virtual reality [00:54:10] piece. Yeah, there was this amazing projection mapping room.

Neil Sikka: Oh yeah. That room where you’re just [00:54:15] completely surrounded and then you just touch things on the.

Payman Langroudi: Wall and you move stuff around. And [00:54:20] for me, it wasn’t even what was being shown there. It was the possibilities. [00:54:25] Yeah. You know, like what could happen in a room like that? Because it’s all, I mean, to describe [00:54:30] it to people like the all four walls were a complete projection that you [00:54:35] could have anything touch. You could touch the wall and move anything around. You could get inside [00:54:40] the mouth, rotate things just.

Neil Sikka: From a training perspective. Amazing. Make it really [00:54:45] interactive so anyone can, you know, you can say right Payman you go and tell me, talk to [00:54:50] me, talk me through this, how you do this treatment here. And you have to do it by touching the wall. And [00:54:55] it’s amazing. I mean, the way technology is.

Payman Langroudi: What do you call that room?

Neil Sikka: I’m not sure. [00:55:00] Maybe the interactive room.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not sure. Something like that.

Neil Sikka: Something like that. [00:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: It’s stunning. Really, really, really stunning. Yeah. And I thought I wasn’t expecting things to be [00:55:10] like that. I really wasn’t there was the mannequins that were breathing and.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. [00:55:15] Or fogging up your mirror.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So interesting, so [00:55:20] interesting. So where do you see the future for you? Have [00:55:25] you got a plan or are you just loving life and you’re just.

Neil Sikka: Well, in terms of professionally, [00:55:30] personally.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’m a, I’m in a I’m [00:55:35] in a good place, if I’m honest. I only took this role on a, I see I’ve been the chief dental [00:55:40] officer for 11 years since 2014, but [00:55:45] I only took this new role on um, when Mark decided Mark Allen, I chief executive, [00:55:50] decided that he was going to form this clinical advisory team because he said he didn’t at that time, um, [00:55:55] have any clinical representation on the board. And he realised that we needed a clinical [00:56:00] voice.

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy when you think about it. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was the one that recognised it. We did have previously a clinical director, [00:56:05] but then when they left they didn’t replace in the same way. And they wanted the teams to work in a different way. [00:56:10] So they needed that board representation because otherwise, [00:56:15] you know, you know what it’s like in an operating environment. You need to have an [00:56:20] understanding of, of how things will be applied on a clinical level, not just within a, [00:56:25] within the clinical level, but also how reception teams are going to work with a new [00:56:30] new process, your practice managers, all that kind of stuff. So we need to have that and that’s [00:56:35] been great. So we are that clinical voice to the board. I love that. And that’s [00:56:40] only a year and a half in.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your group of four.

Neil Sikka: That’s my gang of four. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you Annie. [00:56:45]

Neil Sikka: Me. Annie. Annie is our head of general dentistry. Um, Caitlin is our head of hygiene [00:56:50] and therapy, and Amelia is our head of dental nursing. And so we’re the we’re [00:56:55] the for people that represent the clinical workforce to the senior leadership.

Payman Langroudi: And part of your [00:57:00] job is to go out and talk to loads of people and feedback.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I’ve just spent two days [00:57:05] up in Yorkshire travelling around a whole load of our practices there. Um talking to [00:57:10] clinicians, talking to the practice managers. We had a lovely dinner together, really just [00:57:15] helping, you know, understanding where are the pain points, where are the challenges. You don’t get [00:57:20] that on a teams call. You get it by sitting down and having a proper chat and, and [00:57:25] really investing the time and then feeding that back. Um, as to, [00:57:30] you know, what are we doing? Right. What’s the general feeling on the ground? What should we be [00:57:35] doing differently? So in terms of where I’m going, I mean, I’m hoping that I’ve [00:57:40] got a few more years left in me yet. Um, I’m really enjoying this journey. But the thing is this. [00:57:45] I’m really excited about what the future holds. I mean, I’ve talked about the mouth body connection. I really do [00:57:50] fundamentally believe that dentists, the dental practice is going [00:57:55] to change in future in the way that healthcare is delivered through dentistry. We’re already [00:58:00] doing blood pressure pilots within the NHS, within dental practices, our own dental practices. [00:58:05] We’re starting to do, um, HB one AC, diabetic finger prick testing. [00:58:10]

Neil Sikka: You know, there are there are apparently a million people that are undiagnosed diabetics. We know [00:58:15] the links between oral health and diabetes. So why should we as dental [00:58:20] practices not be at the forefront of that? We look at our genomics project. How [00:58:25] are we going to look at genome sequencing in terms of risk factors for periodontal [00:58:30] health. You know, I was at a lecture at the dentistry show where the lecturer and I hope she won’t [00:58:35] be asked me saying Reena Wadia and she did a brilliant lecture and she said 80% [00:58:40] of the reaction to bacteria and plaque is a host response. And there’s not a lot you can do about [00:58:45] it. So that is genetic. Yeah. So how do we then find out what [00:58:50] those are? So to me, the future is incredibly exciting. And the fact that I’m doing [00:58:55] my one day a week and I’ve got all this other time to really find out what’s [00:59:00] going on and, and be in a position to influence how we implement it is a [00:59:05] great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a privilege.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No it is. It really is.

Payman Langroudi: What grinds your gears [00:59:10] about dentistry?

Neil Sikka: What grinds my gears? It’s a [00:59:15] difficult one, really, because I’m. I’m probably not that I’m too much of an optimist [00:59:20] to really go. What really annoys me about dentistry, I think. Okay. [00:59:25]

Payman Langroudi: Deep breath.

Neil Sikka: Oh, [00:59:30] dear. Okay, I. [00:59:35] This is making me sound like a grumpy old man. [00:59:40]

Payman Langroudi: Instagram. Instagram. Are you.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. The Instagram age of personal branding [00:59:45] for dentists.

Payman Langroudi: And easy does it.

Neil Sikka: I just think I [00:59:50] think people sometimes want to run before they can walk. And I think we’re in a business. [00:59:55] We’re we’re here to deliver health care to our patients, not [01:00:00] just to give them great smiles. I know that’s part of it, but we should be able to [01:00:05] do everything. And when you see people that, um, you know, [01:00:10] that can’t that want to promote themselves in a certain way, but [01:00:15] actually can’t do the basics. I think I find that annoying because that’s what we’re here to provide. [01:00:20] Um, you know, we provide to, to provide proper care for our patients. [01:00:25] And I suppose that’s one thing that kind of gets my what if.

Payman Langroudi: What if someone is a endodontist [01:00:30] and can’t pull out teeth and can’t, can’t, can’t do anything else [01:00:35] other than endo, but they’ve got no problem with that, right?

Neil Sikka: No, I haven’t, because.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve gone through the process. Do [01:00:40] we have a problem with this other person who wants to be a whatever? I don’t know, maybe because maybe you’re thinking of what a lime [01:00:45] bleach bond type dentist?

Neil Sikka: Potentially.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. People. That guy wants to do that.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, that’s fine, [01:00:50] but it’s not. I mean, but what are they doing about the rest of it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, I mean, it’s important. They can they can [01:00:55] they can refer at the right point.

Neil Sikka: But who are you going to afford to another general dentist because you’re not going to do. You’re [01:01:00] not going to do a filling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: I think I don’t think that’s right. As a general [01:01:05] dentist I think. Why though? Because I was brought up as a as someone, as a general dentist, you [01:01:10] should be providing comprehensive care to a certain level at least. And if it’s beyond your limitations, you refer [01:01:15] to a specialist. Referring to another general dentist means that you’re not qualified enough to do your job. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, I’ll tell you why. Why, why I’m much more like, uh. Happy about it than you are. Yeah. I [01:01:25] stopped practising for six years when we started the company. [01:01:30] And then I went back and started doing two days, three days, four days a week. And when [01:01:35] I went back, dentistry wasn’t my focus. Focus. Right. Enlightened was my focus. Okay. [01:01:40] And I thought, if it’s not my focus, I’m not going to just sit around doing nothing. Like, like doing [01:01:45] work that isn’t the best work. So I thought, I’m going to only do [01:01:50] the things that I’m really, really good at. And it basically came down to bleaching and bonding. [01:01:55] It did. Yeah. And I found I was referring a lot, a lot [01:02:00] of different things to different people because I didn’t need the money was the reason why I [01:02:05] was doing it. Yeah. Um, you know, if it was something that I thought I could do very well, I would do it [01:02:10] myself very well. Otherwise, I would let someone else do it. And, you know, those [01:02:15] patients ended up having better treatment because of it. Because, you know, I’m not the best in the [01:02:20] world at post crowds. Yeah. So I would never do a post crown and send that to [01:02:25] someone else. Yeah. Now, my point is this, that if someone wants to be that guy, let [01:02:30] him be that guy. But tell me about personal branding that grinds you. It’s like, do [01:02:35] you have some sort of distaste for a dentist? I don’t know. [01:02:40] Um, building audience and and working on social. I mean, some people say I’ve [01:02:45] had people say this. I find it very valid. Yeah. Social is a massive skill [01:02:50] in itself. Yeah, that takes a lot of time. Yeah. Yeah. They should be spending the time learning [01:02:55] teeth and understanding people. You know what I mean? If you’re going to put time into something, don’t put it into social [01:03:00] media. I get that, I understand that.

Neil Sikka: I, you know, I don’t I don’t mind [01:03:05] the idea of building a personal brand when it’s done [01:03:10] in the right way. What I don’t particularly like is the whole kind [01:03:15] of bling side of it that goes with it in terms of fast cars, Private jets [01:03:20] and lifestyle stuff that goes with it. I [01:03:25] am very happy for people to be promoting their wonderful work. Yeah, [01:03:30] in terms of their personal brand. And that’s, that’s that I’m completely understandable. And [01:03:35] that’s something actually.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me about the fast cars. Like what’s the problem with the guy showing his Ferrari? [01:03:40]

Neil Sikka: You know, the trouble is, is then dentists get a reputation that they’re all, you know, oh, look at all these rich dentists [01:03:45] driving around in their Ferraris.

Payman Langroudi: You think that’s the thing?

Neil Sikka: Well, I think it is, yes.

Payman Langroudi: No, [01:03:50] no, it’s a thing, I think. But irrespective of whether one dentist is showing his Ferrari or not, you know, like the [01:03:55] it’s such an interesting thing. I remember when I was a dentist, when I was associate, I always used [01:04:00] to try and ask the nurse, how much do you think the boss [01:04:05] earns? Yeah. And the numbers that would come out like these ridiculous numbers, like [01:04:10] ridiculous numbers, something you wouldn’t even get anywhere near like maybe like [01:04:15] ten times what the guy was actually earning, you know, And and and you say why, you know why, [01:04:20] why, why. Oh, he’s got a swimming pool.

Neil Sikka: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right. He’s, he’s [01:04:25] got a swimming pool. Um, and then you’d get, you’d get some dentists who have a really nice car. They wouldn’t [01:04:30] drive to work so that their nurse wouldn’t think they’re rich or something. Yeah. [01:04:35]

Neil Sikka: I think it’s a difficult one because I think, you know, you work hard, you earn money. You, you, [01:04:40] you deserve the rewards of what you’re working. I just think.

Payman Langroudi: If I had a Ferrari, I wouldn’t stick it [01:04:45] on the internet. I get it.

Neil Sikka: That’s all I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Saying. I get it, but you know, it’s society’s got to that [01:04:50] point now where where some people want to do.

Neil Sikka: I think what you want to do in your own time, I think is absolutely [01:04:55] fine. I think it’s shoving it down people’s throats. It’s the thing that. [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, anyone who really has, uh, private jets and things never, ever puts it online. [01:05:05] Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:05:10] all right, so that grinds your gears. Um, what [01:05:15] is the future going to be for pupa? Are you guys going to add more practices? [01:05:20] Are you going to consolidate? Is it going to be more about this, uh health [01:05:25] mouth connection?

Neil Sikka: I think the mouth body connection [01:05:30] is going to be a big focus for us. I mean, we are in a very unique position to [01:05:35] be able to leverage the knowledge that we have and the data as well within all our business [01:05:40] units. I mean, if we think about, for instance, just a simple thing like, um, [01:05:45] gum disease and, and, and so if you think about, um, [01:05:50] our claims data, if you think you have gum disease, a lot of people have gum disease will have a tooth extracted. [01:05:55] So if we look at our claims data for those people that [01:06:00] have claimed for a dental extraction, they’re 70% more likely to claim under [01:06:05] their medical insurance.

Payman Langroudi: For something else.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. For something under their medical policy. [01:06:10] Mhm. So this is us using data to start to show the power [01:06:15] of oral health. Now, we can’t say that. Oh, just because I’ve had an extraction, that means it [01:06:20] caused that. But we know that the links are there. All the clinical studies are showing that. [01:06:25] So for me, the future is, is how are we going to use [01:06:30] this incredible data knowledge and also expertise within our different business [01:06:35] units to, um, to, to really connect [01:06:40] together to deliver comprehensive care for our patients. So in [01:06:45] terms of Bupa dental for the future, I think we’re concentrating on our existing [01:06:50] portfolio, but we are looking at where we can grow our existing [01:06:55] surgeries practices because they’re at capacity. And they and we [01:07:00] know that there is the need there. That is where we’re concentrating and just being [01:07:05] much more analytical about, um, our, [01:07:10] our approach to growth. So looking at [01:07:15] the data properly, not just our, our, our provision data, but also the [01:07:20] data of our connected care businesses.

Payman Langroudi: What does your week look like?

Neil Sikka: So [01:07:25] Mondays always surgery. So that’s my [01:07:30] surgery day. I shut off my computers and I just literally concentrate on my patients. And I love [01:07:35] that day because it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Well, you’re at 9 to 5.

Neil Sikka: And I go in at 830, [01:07:40] I probably leave about six. Um, well, I get in about eight and leave at six and it’s a, it’s a full [01:07:45] day, but that’s fine. But I, you know, and I.

Payman Langroudi: What was your day of rest?

Neil Sikka: It is, it’s almost like my day off [01:07:50] because it’s like I’m not, I’m not, I’m not having any noise around me. I’m just concentrating on the people in front [01:07:55] of me and really just enjoying the vacation.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: And then [01:08:00] the rest of the week, um, I probably the majority of the time is spent in my role as a director of [01:08:05] dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but physically, are you working from home?

Neil Sikka: I’ll be working from home. [01:08:10] We have a it’s funny. We have a head office right next to my practice in [01:08:15] Margate where I work, which is Angel court, which is our worldwide head office. So [01:08:20] I’ll often be in there for meetings. We have our Dental head office in Bristol, so I’ll [01:08:25] be there. We have our board meetings, um, every month we get together [01:08:30] at different sites. I’ll be out and about visiting practices. I’ll [01:08:35] be working from home. You know, I like to do every [01:08:40] week. Um, it’s probably more like every month, a [01:08:45] couple of days I try and get out a bit. Um, and then I’ve got my insurance job [01:08:50] as well. So I will be helping the insurance team to design insurance products. I’ll [01:08:55] be pitching. So when we’re going out to try and sell a dental insurance product [01:09:00] to a new client or renewal meetings with existing clients. So we’ll have. [01:09:05]

Payman Langroudi: You do that actual pitch to a company.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, because I’m not you see, I’m not selling a product. I’m. [01:09:10] I’m promoting a service which is very different. So I come at it from a clinical [01:09:15] angle and why it’s important for your employees oral health to have this [01:09:20] and to support it with the facts. So I’ll I’ll, you know, [01:09:25] I’ll be out there. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll bring me in for the big pictures. [01:09:30] Um, and I’ll be out there because that’s what I used to do. That was, that’s what I used to do [01:09:35] myself when I was for Barbican days. I was out there pitching.

Payman Langroudi: I’ll give you an example. It’s like we’re talking some fortune [01:09:40] 500 company or whatever.

Neil Sikka: All of them. Yeah. All the top.

Payman Langroudi: Like a giant employer. Yeah. [01:09:45] And you’re trying to get Dental as part of the benefits. Yes. So [01:09:50] it must be a much bigger business in the US than here, right. We don’t have here.

Neil Sikka: What [01:09:55] you’re talking about, dental insurance as a business or or Bupa in America.

Payman Langroudi: No, dental [01:10:00] insurance is a business.

Neil Sikka: No dental insurance in America is massive. Yeah. I mean, in the UK, um, [01:10:05] I think it’s around about, uh, dental insurance as a business [01:10:10] is about £200 million of insurance premiums here, which is peanuts. Yeah, but we’ve got [01:10:15] there’s massive potential.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What about the proposition for associates? [01:10:20] I’m an associate.

Neil Sikka: I’m an associate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:10:25] I’m not an associate. But if I was an associate and I’ve got on [01:10:30] one side an independent practice principles on site, they look like they’re [01:10:35] doing things ethically. On the other side, I’ve got a gigantic corporate, faceless, [01:10:40] nameless. And then on the other side we’ve got Bupa. Let’s say, let’s say we’ve got these three choices, the value [01:10:45] prop that you present. And we talked about some of the stuff that we said about, you know, the training centre training. [01:10:50]

Neil Sikka: Academy and but.

Payman Langroudi: What is what’s the pitch that, you know, what’s, what’s what is the [01:10:55] value prop that an associate gets from Bupa sort of clinical freedom as a thing?

Neil Sikka: I mean, [01:11:00] clinical freedom is a given. You know, you there is no there [01:11:05] is no onus on the individual to work in a certain way. As an associate [01:11:10] within Bupa Dental Care, you have complete clinical freedom as a as a self-employed because [01:11:15] you’re a self-employed principal. I get it in your.

Payman Langroudi: I get it. And that sounds like fun, doesn’t it? That sounds great for for, [01:11:20] for an associate. But you talk about this brand, right? One of the most powerful [01:11:25] brands, full stop, not just brands in health care. I’m a consumer. I walk into [01:11:30] a business with that brand on the on the wall. As a consumer, I would expect [01:11:35] certain clinical fundamentals to come out from every [01:11:40] single place that has that over the wall. But now you’re telling me full clinical freedom. So [01:11:45] one associate could do X, the other associate could do Y. How do you how do you square that circle?

Neil Sikka: Well, [01:11:50] it’s a really difficult one because this is the whole problem in terms of trying to drive consistency. [01:11:55] When you have 2500 clinicians around the.

Payman Langroudi: With full freedom, right.

Neil Sikka: With [01:12:00] well, because they’re self-employed in their own right. But I mean, if you go back [01:12:05] a stage to what you said. Well, what what is it that an associate wants? I [01:12:10] mean, if I think of myself as an associate, if I was working in any environment, [01:12:15] I would want three things. I want to be working with a great team that provides me with [01:12:20] the support. I want my nurse to know exactly what she’s doing, to be really invested in [01:12:25] supporting me so that I don’t have to think too hard about, you know, I just know it’s all there [01:12:30] in terms of enabling me to do the best possible job for my patients. I [01:12:35] want to know that it’s a proud, I’m proud to walk into the practice that the environment [01:12:40] is nice.

Payman Langroudi: Feels good, looks good, feels good.

Neil Sikka: Look good. The equipment is good that the that [01:12:45] they’re investing in my future in terms of digital technology, especially because [01:12:50] that’s where the future lies. And thirdly, you know, I want to be busy. So [01:12:55] I want to I want a business that’s going to put bums on seats for me. Yeah. So those are the three fundamental [01:13:00] things. Now, I mean, there are there are some independent [01:13:05] practices that do an amazing job and they and they have incredible, um, [01:13:10] local brand awareness and power and [01:13:15] they, you know, and we, we can’t compete with them in some ways because they [01:13:20] have, you know, they, they know, they do, they do an incredible job of all those [01:13:25] things for their associates. And I think where we can, [01:13:30] um, where we can hopefully leverage those relationships is there’s, there’s [01:13:35] certainly clinical and potentially non-clinical, um, um, opportunities. [01:13:40] So within our training academy, within our management structure, there’s [01:13:45] opportunities for dentists to get involved in different ways. But if you just want to be an associate [01:13:50] and you want to come in to your practice, I think it’s, I think it’s nice to be [01:13:55] part of an organisation, as I say, that, um, puts the health, the, the health [01:14:00] care of our people first in terms of the fact that we’re not we’re not always paying [01:14:05] big dividends out to shareholders. I think that’s a really nice thought [01:14:10] to have when you come in as an associate. And just the general vibe actually, [01:14:15] that you’re part of a group of people, I’m really surprised that, you know, well, I’m not surprised. But when I go around our [01:14:20] practices, it’s just lovely to meet people that really care. And I think [01:14:25] that is something that we try and engender as.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult to pull off across 350 sites. [01:14:30]

Neil Sikka: And you’re not going to get it right every time. And, you know, and we are going to have our challenges. And also [01:14:35] this consistency that you talk about is something that is really, really difficult. [01:14:40] We try and do it in certain ways with us, you [01:14:45] know, things like our, our website and our online booking process. And perhaps [01:14:50] we’re helping to train receptionists to try and deliver similar service [01:14:55] levels to people when they walk through the door. Um, there’s no way that I [01:15:00] could say we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve nailed that at all. And it’s part of [01:15:05] a journey. Um, but we, but, but we’re very aware that, I [01:15:10] mean, I love us to be able to give a consistent. I did that at Barbican. I wanted people to have [01:15:15] a consistent, um experience, whichever of my practices that they walked into. [01:15:20] And that’s ultimately what we would like to do within our Bupa environment to [01:15:25] a certain extent, because we have NHS practices, we have purely private [01:15:30] practices, we have specialist practices and we have some we have orthodontic practices. [01:15:35] We have practices in Ireland where they don’t where we don’t have dental [01:15:40] insurance. We. So we do have different brands within [01:15:45] under under the Bupa banner. So, um, it’s not going to be always the same [01:15:50] experience, but if you would go to a certain type of practice, which is similar to another, I’d love that [01:15:55] to be consistent, but I, I won’t say we’re there yet.

Payman Langroudi: So I mean, in Barbican, when [01:16:00] you were trying to keep things consistent, were you telling the dentist they had to do anything? Like [01:16:05] for instance, if I, if I, if I had a group of practices, [01:16:10] which I don’t, but if I did, I might say to all my clinicians that at [01:16:15] this business, we take photographs of every patient for the sake of the argument. Yeah. [01:16:20] I you know, whatever it is.

Neil Sikka: I it’s funny, I think what I [01:16:25] said, I think the one thing that I said to all the associates that would come and work with me, and it was [01:16:30] about, um, it was about putting the care of the patient [01:16:35] first fundamentally. And I said, if you’re here to make a quick buck, that’s all you’re going to make. [01:16:40] But if you put the care of the patient first, I’ve got to trust that you have the experience [01:16:45] and the knowledge. If you haven’t, I will find out because we’ll do our clinical audits regularly. [01:16:50] So the quality of your treatment has got to be the same. But also the [01:16:55] difficulty is the recommendation of treatment is different between different and you’re never going to change [01:17:00] that. Um, but I put it down initially to how a [01:17:05] patient would feel sitting in your chair versus sitting in another person’s [01:17:10] chair. Because ultimately, you know, the old saying, Maya Angelou, you know, people [01:17:15] will not remember what you say. They’ll never remember what you do, but they’ll always remember the way that you made them [01:17:20] feel. Yeah. And if we can make them have that feeling, I don’t know if you’ve seen our fluffy chair campaign. [01:17:25] Beautiful. But that’s the whole point about it. It’s like we have an amazing NPS score. [01:17:30] It’s about 86 now, I think, or something. And that is, you know, it’s world leading. [01:17:35] So we wanted to support that with a campaign that shows that you can feel at ease [01:17:40] when you come into our.

Payman Langroudi: I was quite surprised when I saw that actually, I didn’t expect it to go that sort of outside [01:17:45] the box. It was quite nice to see.

Neil Sikka: I love it and it’s had an amazing response [01:17:50] from the market. Yeah. Because it’s very different.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: It’s not about we’ll do this [01:17:55] treatment or that treatment. It’s treatments just know we’ll we’ll make you feel at ease. Yeah, yeah. And that’s [01:18:00] to me, the core of everything that I would like people to do.

Payman Langroudi: A [01:18:05] couple of quick fire questions. Um, what comes [01:18:10] to mind when I say what’s the best Dental lecture you’ve ever been to?

Neil Sikka: Oh. [01:18:15] There was a chap called. [01:18:20] Do you ever remember a chap called Gordon Christiansen?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course. Used to do that report.

Neil Sikka: I [01:18:25] used to. Yeah. Well he still does. It’s not him but it’s somebody else that does it. It was called the Clinical Research Associates. [01:18:30] And it was a thing that you got in the post.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. But he used to come to the UK and do these [01:18:35] lectures.

Payman Langroudi: Yes.

Neil Sikka: And it was all about everything that’s on the market. He’d run through it independently [01:18:40] tested.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I.

Neil Sikka: Remember. And he would, he would talk about, um, [01:18:45] you know, all the different products. And I thought those, those lectures were so important formative [01:18:50] because, you know, you want to be able to walk away from your lecture at least taking a [01:18:55] few key messages, right? If I could take 2 or 3 key things that I could [01:19:00] put into practice. The other person was a chap called John Cranham. I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember [01:19:05] him.

Neil Sikka: He was amazing. And he gave such beautiful lectures. And again, in [01:19:10] terms of design for anterior cosmetic work and just to be really formalised [01:19:15] about your approach, he was brilliant at that. Um, and the other person was a chap called [01:19:20] was it Yan Pamir? He was, he was a chap from Sweden who also [01:19:25] did such beautiful work, but also simplified it so that he, [01:19:30] you could as a, you know, humble general practitioner, could try [01:19:35] and put a few of those things into, into, into practice. When you get.

Payman Langroudi: These important what you’re [01:19:40] saying about simplifying something, because a lot of lecturers go the opposite direction. They make things more complicated [01:19:45] than they need to be.

Neil Sikka: Well, they want to show off their how brilliant they are at doing this complicated work. But then you think, [01:19:50] well, when am I ever going to do that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Although at the same time we supply [01:19:55] we do education as well. We do composite bonding courses. Okay. You do have to think that, [01:20:00] you know, there’s going to be someone in the room who’s quite experienced already, and then someone who’s a complete beginner. And how [01:20:05] do you pitch it so that everyone gets something out of it? Yeah. So, you know, it’s [01:20:10] a difficult needle to dance on sometimes. What about if I say favourite book or [01:20:15] resource? You know, I don’t know, uh, Instagram page. [01:20:20]

Neil Sikka: I mean, I’ve got to say I use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Yeah. I find [01:20:25] it a really useful resource for, um.

Payman Langroudi: But. Dental. Dental.

Neil Sikka: Dental. [01:20:30] Dental stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Keep up with what’s.

Neil Sikka: Going health care stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: For, um, [01:20:35] just general market overview. Yeah. Um, I find it a really good resource [01:20:40] and I can flick and I can just go, oh, that’s a really interesting one. And I’ll, you know, Mark’s really good [01:20:45] at sharing things as well. So he’s a great resource.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:50] bet he is.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. So, so I mean, I, yeah, probably [01:20:55] use LinkedIn a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Does a teacher stand out like a, someone from university or someone [01:21:00] who inspired you or who’s a dentist who really inspires you?

Neil Sikka: Who [01:21:10] is a dentist? That really inspires me. [01:21:15] I think that’s there is there is somebody out [01:21:20] there who I have spent a bit of time with recently who is just is [01:21:25] incredible. His commitment to trying to really, [01:21:30] um, providing credible care, but also pushing the frontiers of [01:21:35] what you can do for patients. And there’s a chap called Miguel Stanley.

Payman Langroudi: I know Miguel. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So [01:21:40] I’ve been to his clinic in. Oh, have you in Lisbon? I spent time with him. He was a keynote [01:21:45] lecturer for us at our conference in January. And he’s someone [01:21:50] who.

Payman Langroudi: Outside the box thinking.

Neil Sikka: Yeah, but also is like making me challenge my own way [01:21:55] of thinking about what dentistry should be like in the future.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. [01:22:00] That’s what you’re saying, that the mouth body connection, he’s definitely [01:22:05] involved.

Neil Sikka: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: In that. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And he’s a forefront because he, he, you [01:22:10] know, everything is based on science with him. And he does his research. He’ll test things out and [01:22:15] he’ll he will report back on it in terms of what’s working within [01:22:20] his clinic.

Payman Langroudi: How about your free time? Let’s say you had an afternoon [01:22:25] off from everything.

Speaker 5: When’s that?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly. Let’s imagine [01:22:30] I could, I could I could make that happen. Well.

Neil Sikka: I fiddle in people’s mouths, but I’m [01:22:35] also a fiddler violin.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: So I play the violin and a symphony orchestra. [01:22:40]

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Speaker 5: Do you? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I love doing that. Oh, that’s my Wednesday nights. Um. [01:22:45]

Payman Langroudi: As a child, did you learn?

Neil Sikka: I learned as a child, as I was saying, you know, I was sent away to boarding [01:22:50] school and I played I was a music scholar and I played it excellent. So and I loved that. I really [01:22:55] love that. It’s, it’s like switch off time. Just really just get into it. [01:23:00] And I just that I.

Payman Langroudi: So how often do you play at home?

Neil Sikka: Well, I probably [01:23:05] practice a couple of times 2 to 3 times a week. Oh really? Um, when I’ve got. Well, [01:23:10] we do four concerts a year and so I’ve got to practice for the concert. So it gives me a real [01:23:15] focus because I’m in an orchestra where the standards are quite high and I’m probably [01:23:20] one of the least proficient, so I don’t want to show everybody up.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:23:25] where do you perform?

Neil Sikka: Um, it’s called the Brent Symphony Orchestra. So it’s in North London.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. [01:23:30]

Neil Sikka: Yeah. No, I love doing that. Um, I play a very silly game [01:23:35] called Real Tennis. I was playing this morning.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Neil Sikka: Do you know real tennis?

Payman Langroudi: Real tennis? Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Where’d [01:23:40] you play that?

Neil Sikka: Middlesex University, which is up in north London.

Payman Langroudi: Describe to someone who’s [01:23:45] never heard of it what happens in real tennis.

Neil Sikka: Oh, God. Well, it’s just something that the monks used to play in monasteries. [01:23:50] The French monks.

Payman Langroudi: Before tennis.

Neil Sikka: Right? Yeah, it was before tennis. And it’s basically [01:23:55] based around the cloisters of a of a monastery where you have a penthouse, [01:24:00] which is like a half roof that goes around, which is covered cloisters. And then [01:24:05] you have a net across the middle, and then you have a kink in a wall, and then you have holes in the wall. So [01:24:10] and it’s a it’s a normal tennis scoring, but it’s very strange about things that you [01:24:15] play in the game. So it’s too complicated to explain.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across fives?

Neil Sikka: Yes. I used [01:24:20] to play fives at school.

Payman Langroudi: I played five. There’s that thing that sticks out the buttress thing. It’s literally [01:24:25] part of a cathedral or something sticking in the middle of a squash court. Yeah. [01:24:30]

Neil Sikka: So I did that play golf.

Payman Langroudi: Played.

Neil Sikka: Quite a lot of golf weekends. We’re a big family of [01:24:35] golfers. All five of us. I’ve got three kids.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Neil Sikka: They? Oh, 27, 25 [01:24:40] and 19. None of them are at home anymore.

Payman Langroudi: Any dentist [01:24:45] types.

Neil Sikka: Know I’ve got. I’ve got a paediatric nurse. My daughter is a paediatric nurse. Uh, [01:24:50] another one works in finance. He lives in Manhattan and the other one’s just gone off to university. So no, [01:24:55] no, dentists couldn’t persuade them.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent.

Neil Sikka: Even though they said it was a. It [01:25:00] would be a great career for. I said it would be a great career for them.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s been a massive pleasure to have [01:25:05] you, man. Really, really. Thank you so much for coming all the way down.

Neil Sikka: Hey, look, it’s been a great pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: For a long time. [01:25:10] Long time organising this with you guys are busy. That’s what I think I’ve learned. [01:25:15] Yeah, but, um. No, I’ve learned a lot. Thank you so much for. For taking the time.

Neil Sikka: Well, thank you so [01:25:20] much for the invitation. It’s been a pleasure.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve enjoyed that, man. Enjoyed [01:25:25] it.

Neil Sikka: Good God, is that an hour and a half?

Payman Langroudi: 20. [01:25:30]

Neil Sikka: Okay, good. Excellent. Oh, you didn’t ask [01:25:35] me about my three people I’d have around the dinner table.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, shit. Yeah, we have to do that. Oh. Do we? Yeah. Sorry, sorry, [01:25:40] sorry. So lost. Um. So final [01:25:45] question. Fantasy dinner party.

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests.

Neil Sikka: Okay. [01:25:50]

Payman Langroudi: Dead or alive?

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Are you having.

Neil Sikka: So, um, [01:25:55] I think I’ve told you that I’m. I love playing golf. [01:26:00] Yeah. Uh, my favourite golfer of all time is Seve Ballesteros.

Payman Langroudi: Seve.

Neil Sikka: So, [01:26:05] you know, when I was young and he was such a magician. He’s still alive? No, [01:26:10] he had a brain tumour, and he died in his 50s, which was a real, real shame. But he [01:26:15] was a man of incredible passion, loved the game, loved to win, [01:26:20] but just played with such panache. And I think I would just love [01:26:25] to hear his stories. Um, the other person that I’d really [01:26:30] like to have around the dinner table, um, is a violinist. I said, I play [01:26:35] the violin, there’s a, there’s a violinist, um, professional violinist called Itzhak [01:26:40] Perlman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Who is who had polio as a child, but overcome [01:26:45] that to become one of the world’s greatest violinists. Yeah, apparently a very funny guy [01:26:50] as well. But I’ve seen him play and it’s just like he [01:26:55] is.

Payman Langroudi: He’s not alive anymore.

Neil Sikka: Yeah. He’s alive. He’s 80. Um, I don’t know if he performs anymore, [01:27:00] but I’ve had the pleasure of seeing him at the Festival Hall many, many years ago, and [01:27:05] he was just incredible. Made it look so easy, but just so [01:27:10] almost whimsical in the way that he approached things. But such a light touch, [01:27:15] but so beautiful to listen to. And I love to hear his experiences. And [01:27:20] my third one would be quite an interesting one for me. There’s [01:27:25] one book that I’ve read that I think has been incredibly profound in [01:27:30] its approach, but has really made me think about my life. And that’s called Man’s Search for Meaning [01:27:35] by a book called Viktor Frankl.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good book.

Neil Sikka: Um, and he.

Payman Langroudi: I only read that last [01:27:40] year for the first time.

Neil Sikka: And.

Payman Langroudi: Loved it. Loved it.

Neil Sikka: I think it’s incredible. And again, I, [01:27:45] you know, we talked about lecturers that simplify things and make things easy for you to understand. He [01:27:50] has these moments and he says these things like, you know, between stimulus and [01:27:55] response, there’s a space. And in that space is your, your growth and [01:28:00] your freedom because it’s up to you how you respond. Simple, but just like perfect. [01:28:05]

Payman Langroudi: So I’d heard that from Stephen Covey, but obviously he’d [01:28:10] heard it from from there. So I thought it was the Stephen Covey original [01:28:15] thought until I read I read it last year. Yeah.

Neil Sikka: Well, he was a Holocaust survivor. And this whole [01:28:20] story is incredible, beautiful, beautiful book. So I’d have those three. And I think it’d [01:28:25] be really interesting to see Viktor as the psychiatrist analysing Seve. [01:28:30]

Payman Langroudi: True.

Neil Sikka: True. So yeah, and we probably have a [01:28:35] few laughs as well. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, final final question. Um, It’s a deathbed. [01:28:40]

Neil Sikka: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Three pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed. [01:28:45]

Neil Sikka: Well, I’ve got to say, if I think if I got to my deathbed and I was giving them advice, it’d [01:28:50] probably be a bit late. I’d probably like. I’m always imparting advice [01:28:55] to my kids.

Payman Langroudi: A week before your deathbed.

Neil Sikka: Well, funny enough, somebody once said to me, [01:29:00] um, about, um, you know, we were talking about something called intention. [01:29:05] And I said, what does intention mean? He said, intention is your emotional [01:29:10] legacy. I said, what does that mean? He says it’s imagine yourself towards [01:29:15] the end of your life. You’re sitting on your veranda with a blanket over you, looking [01:29:20] at the sunset, thinking about how you would like to be remembered. That [01:29:25] is your emotional legacy, and you should hold that with you throughout [01:29:30] your life so that that influences the things that you do so that when you look back, [01:29:35] you can look back with pride And you can look back with comfort and. [01:29:40] So that would be one piece of advice. The other thing that I, I say to my [01:29:45] kids all the time is a simple thing. It’s, it’s like, [01:29:50] you know, when they say, talk about exams and A-levels and results and [01:29:55] this I said, you know, what’s most important thing? I said, I was not the most academic person, but I said, [01:30:00] if you get on with people, you’ll get on in life. And [01:30:05] if people like you, you don’t have to be the cleverest in the room. You just have to be someone that can [01:30:10] people can equate with. So that would be my probably my other piece [01:30:15] of advice.

Payman Langroudi: What about a piece of advice? Like, I mean, this the one [01:30:20] that you’ve given a kind of, sort of I found these worked for me kind of advice. What about stuff [01:30:25] that you wish you’d you were more classically. [01:30:30] I wish I’d gone to the gym more. So you should go or I wish I was less risk averse or [01:30:35] something like that. What if it was a piece of advice like that?

Neil Sikka: I [01:30:40] wish. Okay. I think that, um. [01:30:45] What we don’t realise is that when you’re younger, you think that [01:30:50] opportunities are going to occur, present themselves [01:30:55] to you that will transform your life. And actually, there are very few. [01:31:00] And I think I would if I was looking back, I think I wish I’d grasped [01:31:05] more of those opportunities when they came. So when you think something [01:31:10] sounds like something that you really need to grab hold of, do it. Do not [01:31:15] think that something else better will come up.

Payman Langroudi: You can give me an example of [01:31:20] or not. Like what was the opportunity that you didn’t? [01:31:25]

Neil Sikka: Well, I didn’t I probably wasn’t brave enough with my business. I could [01:31:30] have probably.

Payman Langroudi: You did. Okay. But are you.

Neil Sikka: Saying I could have done a lot more if [01:31:35] I thought, you know, I could have bought an insurance company.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Neil Sikka: And I could have really [01:31:40] grown that business enormously because I had all the tools to be able to do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You were in [01:31:45] the right sort of intersection. Right.

Neil Sikka: And there was no one else. Okay, who was doing it. But yeah, nobody else [01:31:50] was in that market at all. Interesting. And I could have stolen a march on everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting, [01:31:55] interesting.

Neil Sikka: But I wasn’t brave enough. You keep saying I’m a risk taker, I wasn’t. I’ve [01:32:00] seen people far more risk than me. I was I was I think I was quite cautious [01:32:05] really.

Payman Langroudi: Excellent. Thank you so much for doing this.

Neil Sikka: Thank you so much. Thank [01:32:10] you. It’s a pleasure.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in [01:32:15] for future episodes. Hit subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever [01:32:20] platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um, give. [01:32:25]

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber [01:32:30] driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

[VOICE]: Please welcome to the stage Head of General Dentistry, Bupa Dental [00:00:05] Care Doctor Annie Seabourne.

Annie Seabourne: Hello. Good afternoon everybody. [00:00:10] How are we all feeling? Some tired faces. But to be fair, I think people [00:00:15] have looked a lot more fresh than I thought they would be. Considering what I saw on the dance floor [00:00:20] last night. Um, two jam packed days. And [00:00:25] it has been honestly incredible. Last year, some of the feedback we got is that people [00:00:30] wanted more CPD, and what I can say is the team have knocked it out [00:00:35] the park this time, and I want to have a round of applause. Special [00:00:40] acknowledgement to Holly Harker and Nisha Patel and their amazing [00:00:45] respective teams and all the amazing speakers. So I hope you’ve had a wonderful [00:00:50] morning. We are at the end though. This is our last session [00:00:55] of the two days, and we’ve got something a little bit exciting, a little bit different. [00:01:00] And that is a live podcast recording. And it is the Dental Leaders [00:01:05] podcast, which is if you haven’t listened to it, it’s phenomenal. There’s hundreds of episodes to go back and [00:01:10] listen on your drives back. And it’s hosted by the formidable Payman [00:01:15] Langroudi, who is the clinical director and the co-founder [00:01:20] of Enlightened Smiles. And today we’ve got an amazing guest, Andrew [00:01:25] Bower, who is the product category lead globally [00:01:30] of Philips Oral healthcare. So I’m aware that the hangover [00:01:35] might be hitting, or you might be having a bit of a sugar kind of come down from all [00:01:40] the sweets and treats at lunchtime. Um, but the good news [00:01:45] is this will be recorded so you can always watch it back. However, the conversation is going [00:01:50] to be phenomenal. Um, and they’re going to discuss what dentistry is going [00:01:55] to be like in 2040 and beyond. So a warm welcome to Payman [00:02:00] and Andrew.

[VOICE]: Well. [00:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: This is a bit different to my normal podcast room, which some of [00:02:10] you have been in and several of you have been on my podcast. Massive pleasure to have you, Andrew. [00:02:15] Um, we’re looking at 2040 and although [00:02:20] that sounds like a long way away, it’s only 15 years at the same time, [00:02:25] it might be the first time in history where we don’t know what the world is going to be like [00:02:30] in two years time with AI and robotics, everything that’s [00:02:35] coming down the line. And really, um, my first question to [00:02:40] you is how far ahead do you guys think? Mm.

Andrew Bower: Fair [00:02:45] question. Um, we try and keep a ten year horizon [00:02:50] when we’re looking forward. Um, and maybe start kind of from a Philips enterprise perspective, [00:02:55] right. We’re in the in the business of improving lives. That’s our mission. 2.5 [00:03:00] billion lives is what we want to improve. And we bridge that between consumer health and medical health. And [00:03:05] so we’re always looking at the ten year horizon about what’s going to be [00:03:10] inflection points and what’s going to improve health outcomes. And I think for [00:03:15] us, it’s really a truly exciting time to be in health care, if [00:03:20] you like, as a whole, because I think the advancements in technology, it’s a somewhat industrial revolution we’re going [00:03:25] through at the moment, and the advancements in technology are accelerating unprecedented [00:03:30] speed. Where will that take us? Your guess is as good as mine, but [00:03:35] I think what it will do, it will hopefully lead to for [00:03:40] clinicians giving them more time to focus on patient care. And I think for [00:03:45] consumers, and I’m afraid that’s what we use in Philips, a lot of times consumers rather than people, but consumers, [00:03:50] is going to lead to more personalised care and more preventative care. And that’s [00:03:55] going to come through a wealth of technology, of sensors on driving behavioural change to [00:04:00] ensure that those who need critical care are going to get it quicker.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:05] did you you’ve been with the business 20 odd years now.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So do you remember predictions [00:04:10] you made 15 years ago? How right do they come?

Andrew Bower: It’s [00:04:15] funny because I think if we were back 15 years ago or even ten years ago, we [00:04:20] were talking about the IoT of things, the Internet of things and connectivity. And I think [00:04:25] that’s everywhere we touch now. Right. And that was the first step towards machine learning and AI. And [00:04:30] I think, um, a lot of the promises have come true. You [00:04:35] know, if you think of how many of us are here wearing a wearable, a smart watch or something that’s given us data and insights [00:04:40] all stemmed from that IoT. And I joke, and I look back [00:04:45] and I think if you were sat here in 1950, we’d be talking about should we use plastic? Yes. [00:04:50] The world is going to change. Of course we’re going to use UI. You’re going to leverage big data, [00:04:55] and it’s going to enhance the quality of care that we can provide.

Payman Langroudi: So look, we sell [00:05:00] toothpaste for £12 and everyone Gasps £12 for toothpaste. [00:05:05] Yeah. And then right right next door to your teeth is your lips and skin. [00:05:10] And people buy £100 screen you know creams for their skin. Yeah. Do [00:05:15] you having come from all the different categories in Philips consumer that you’ve been in, do [00:05:20] you see that oral care has sort of a lower [00:05:25] priority for people? And are you doing something to sort of what do you think [00:05:30] that oral care will take a higher priority for people going forward?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think look, [00:05:35] oral healthcare at the minute for consumers is a daily chore. Yeah, two minutes a day. We want [00:05:40] to turn it into a daily ritual because if you can turn into that daily ritual, you’re investing [00:05:45] in yourself, investing, giving yourself confidence, right? You’re in the whitening business, so am I. You know, and [00:05:50] that’s part of it. But it’s about actually, how am I investing my time in myself and that [00:05:55] care routine to take better care of myself? I think the beauty industry is a fabulous example, [00:06:00] right? How many people have a beauty routine, a cleansing of their skin routine at the end of the day? What’s [00:06:05] an extra two minutes in that routine to actually have a sensorial experience that makes you feel fresh and [00:06:10] good about yourself, and actually knowing that you’re doing something to protect your longevity. [00:06:15] Look after your oral health and ultimately full body health. So I think [00:06:20] the job of the industry and industrial partners like us is to break the apathy, [00:06:25] right? Break the apathy around oral health, that it’s absolutely [00:06:30] integral for your health today and tomorrow. And it’s actually really easy [00:06:35] to take care of, you know, and we’re on this crusade [00:06:40] to try and break that apathy. You know, let me give you some examples. Um, globally, [00:06:45] 30% of people are only using a power toothbrush. So 70, 70, [00:06:50] 70% of people are still using manuals.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the number in the UK? Do you know?

Andrew Bower: Yeah. 52. [00:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: 52%.

Andrew Bower: 52% in the UK. Second most penetrated market after the Netherlands. [00:07:00] Really? It is. But it also shows where we are on a journey of oral health. [00:07:05] Because actually I always joke it’s kind of like the New Year’s habit. You could always keep your teeth [00:07:10] twice a day with a power toothbrush. People don’t because this is apathy, because they don’t understand the importance of it. [00:07:15] So I think, you know, the power of data and AI, and we see this with our connected apps, people [00:07:20] who use our connected app brush for longer. It leads to more, more retention [00:07:25] and a more complete, a more complete clean. And we have the data to support it, but it’s [00:07:30] people taking that, um, shall we say, active investment in their health. [00:07:35] And when they realise oral health like we heard yesterday from Ian Chappell. Right. Oral health [00:07:40] is so important. I hope we’re going to break the apathy and people are going to invest more time, more [00:07:45] effort and maybe the £60 they need to spend on that versus, I [00:07:50] don’t know, an a G one supplement or a whatever else it is they do for, for, for [00:07:55] well-being.

Payman Langroudi: As a business. How do you guys think about insurgents? Because [00:08:00] the barrier to entry of an electric toothbrush is quite low.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. I think we need [00:08:05] to be really careful here. We are seeing insurgents across the world. So as you know, in the intro, um, [00:08:10] I have global responsibility and I spend a lot of time in Asia and I see a lot of incumbents [00:08:15] coming in, a lot of Chinese tech coming through in the category. And [00:08:20] it’s fascinating, right? Because you go to China and I’m seeing robotics and I see AI, and I think the advancements of [00:08:25] technology and the speed in which it’s coming is phenomenal. Yeah. And I see incumbents in the market, [00:08:30] like, um, if you want, you smile, right. Local Chinese [00:08:35] brand, American founders flying in China full of tech. You [00:08:40] know, I didn’t know that I needed a talking toothbrush, but it probably talks to me now. It’s got light [00:08:45] colours interaction on it, but it’s not delivering the clinical efficacy that [00:08:50] it needs to do. And actually, I think some of the incumbents coming to the market are forgetting [00:08:55] that actually this is a clinical product that has to do a clinical job and deliver the care [00:09:00] that is required when you, the clinician, can’t be there. That’s what we need to do. [00:09:05] And so it also acts as a massive threat, if I’m honest with you, to the [00:09:10] industry. Um, and a perfect example of this is in Japan, right? Um, [00:09:15] or power toothbrush penetration in Japan is 24%, but [00:09:20] a huge category objectives for people going into the category, buying one and then trading out because the product [00:09:25] doesn’t deliver any benefit.

Andrew Bower: So it doesn’t deliver the clinical benefit. It doesn’t have the clinical experience. [00:09:30] So people just think, yeah, this is rubbish. And then bin it and go back to the manual brushing. What [00:09:35] they haven’t done is brought into the category, the clinically proven product that has got the evidence behind it, [00:09:40] which is going to actually remove the plaque that it says it’s going to do and help you remove the plaque where you [00:09:45] need to. And this is a big challenge because the more we see this, we’re going to see more category rejectors and [00:09:50] therefore people not believing in the benefit of power over manual and [00:09:55] with with. Power being still, you [00:10:00] know, still at 30%. So Underpenetrated, you know, we have a job to do to ensure [00:10:05] that people trade into the category at the right level and ensure that they learn how to use the device [00:10:10] properly, ensuring that it delivers a clinical efficacy for [00:10:15] what you want to achieve. And that’s why, you know, my role globally is to drive relationships with dental [00:10:20] professionals to ensure that they understand our story and actually understand how it can help them in the care they’re providing [00:10:25] to their patients. But it is a huge risk.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the biggest difference between British dentists [00:10:30] and other dentists? I mean, what, what, what comes to mind? Because, [00:10:35] you know, you obviously you guys are connecting to dentists all over the world.

Andrew Bower: I think [00:10:40] let me start with the consumer. Come to the dentist. Right? If I think about the consumer, the individual reactive. [00:10:45] Reactive versus preventive is [00:10:50] the key is the key distinction across the globe. I think we actually have a very, [00:10:55] very mature oral health system in the UK. When I compare it to many, many other regions, [00:11:00] we go regularly, we go for Check-ups, we go for prevention. I go to China, you [00:11:05] go when you’ve got a pain and where do you go? You go to the public hospital and they deal with it. [00:11:10] So I think the attitude of [00:11:15] people and consumers differs tremendously, therefore has a knock on effect to the [00:11:20] to the clinical side of things. Um, and many [00:11:25] are about fixing a problem. Get in, get out, fix the problem. It’s not necessarily about [00:11:30] patient care. I think what you see in the UK is far more patient care orientated kind [00:11:35] of system that supports people when they’re in the practice, but also when they’re at [00:11:40] home and helping them on their patient plans. Whereas in many parts of the world that still doesn’t exist. [00:11:45]

Payman Langroudi: So where where would you rank the UK? Near the top?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, near the top. I think UK [00:11:50] is pretty high. The US is pretty high. We’ve got we’ve got the discrepancy, [00:11:55] you know, and societal gaps in the US that we have to challenge. And how do we make sure people get access [00:12:00] to care. We don’t have that as much in the UK. Um but it’s certainly up there. And I [00:12:05] think what we’re seeing is that pushing the boundaries of dentistry, I think, [00:12:10] you know, what I was doing, for example, around systemic health is really pioneering. And [00:12:15] I think it’s really interesting to see where that will take us.

Payman Langroudi: So that question, what we saw with Prof [00:12:20] Chappell yesterday, the question of the mouth body connection does do you guys [00:12:25] spend time on that?

Andrew Bower: We’re obviously monitoring it [00:12:30] very closely. Right. Um, and I think there’s increasingly evidence across the globe. [00:12:35] And professor, Professor Chapman obviously is the oracle of this. And you know, we speak to many, many key opinion leaders [00:12:40] across the globe on this topic. The evidence is becoming stronger and stronger. The question [00:12:45] is, what do you do with that? Right. So if you get an early sign of diabetes, for example, [00:12:50] what do you do? Go and do with that. And where do you go. And does that need to be at the consumer’s home [00:12:55] or can it be in in the practice? So there’s a real discussion about where that should take place. [00:13:00] And then how do you integrate that into the ultimately care pathway that bridges both [00:13:05] your general practice and your, and your clinical and your, your dentistry? So [00:13:10] I think we believe in it. I think, I think what it does for us [00:13:15] comes back to that apathy point. I hope it also brings greater awareness to oral oral [00:13:20] health and that we all need to invest more time in it. So I see it also [00:13:25] as a great catalyst for consumers to be more engaged, [00:13:30] and I hope that it has that effect. And then from a clinical care pathway perspective, [00:13:35] I’m really excited to see how that comes together. Right? You know, blood tests and dental practices, etc., etc., [00:13:40] how it comes together. But from a consumer, I hope it wakes people up.

Payman Langroudi: So you reckon by by [00:13:45] 2040, your daily brushing routine will give [00:13:50] you diagnostics because of saliva testing through the brush, something like that. I mean, [00:13:55] what can you tell us?

Andrew Bower: I’m not going to go too far. It could potentially. Um, [00:14:00] but I think there’s a real question like I say, where that takes place. Is it, is it, is it useful to you to get a diagnostic [00:14:05] on a Monday morning at 630 on your way to the office? No, wait a minute. Something’s changed since yesterday. [00:14:10] And what’s the urgency of that versus what’s the role that will play in [00:14:15] the clinical setting? You know, so I think let’s think about, you know, algorithmic hygiene. Hygiene [00:14:20] is twice a year, maybe three times. And I have half an hour with them. What a great opportunity [00:14:25] for primary health, you know, both physical and mental and have them have that check [00:14:30] up. Do I need that on a daily basis? I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: But are you not working on like maybe an [00:14:35] oral version of those bands that people wear? Surely. I mean, if [00:14:40] there was going to be some sort of diagnostic information that you can [00:14:45] get from the mouth.

Andrew Bower: I think there will be diagnostic information from the mouth that you can get. Absolutely. [00:14:50] I think you look at saliva, you look at gas, etc.. I’m excited to see where the industry takes it, but I think one thing’s measuring [00:14:55] it. The other thing is turning it into actionable insights. You know, I think we’ve seen from we’ll go back [00:15:00] to the IoT discussion about raising data. Data gives you visibility. [00:15:05] Visibility drives action. So actually what we’re doing here is trying to create the invisible [00:15:10] visible for people. Right? And if that can happen, then we can drive behavioural change. [00:15:15] And I think that you’ve got to have that motivational driver to drive that behavioural [00:15:20] change. And that’s where data continues to be a positive reassurance to do that. [00:15:25] Um, do I foresee in mouth monitoring potentially. Um, again, [00:15:30] I think we’ve got to be very clear where that should take place and where it shouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: If [00:15:35] you were a betting man, how long will it be before dentists [00:15:40] are replaced by robots?

Andrew Bower: I don’t think they ever will be. I don’t think they ever will be. [00:15:45] I think I don’t think they will be. I think I’ll tell you why. Because it’s actually about care. People [00:15:50] care what I think robotics AI technology will do [00:15:55] will give clinicians more time, more time to be with their patients, to understand them. [00:16:00] And I think the role of dentists will broaden to be more holistic health [00:16:05] than just necessarily just looking at teeth perspective, maybe total oral health. [00:16:10] But I don’t think it will be replaced by robotics. I think robotics will enhance the workflow. [00:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So a bit like, you know, like Waymo, a self-driving car.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s [00:16:20] still a driver. There’s one driver driving 60 cars. Maybe that.

Andrew Bower: Maybe, [00:16:25] maybe, maybe.

Payman Langroudi: One dentist treating 60 patients.

Andrew Bower: You know, we’re human beings and we want care [00:16:30] and we want a human interaction for that care. I think technology will enhance the care [00:16:35] we get won’t replace it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I mean, for instance, it doesn’t [00:16:40] have to be a dentist. It could be a TCO, a human, certainly. [00:16:45]

Andrew Bower: Potentially. Potentially. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ve worked [00:16:50] across other categories. What are examples that, you know, Philips categories, things [00:16:55] that you guys have achieved that now you’re bringing over to oral care, like which other category would you [00:17:00] spent the most time?

Andrew Bower: I spent a lot of time in women’s health and I spent a lot of time in, uh, what [00:17:05] we call our mother and child care account, uh, supporting, uh, people, [00:17:10] having families. There’s two aspects to this. There’s a commercial aspect, and there’s kind [00:17:15] of the behavioural, the lifestyle aspect, right? I think one thing we’ve done, we built [00:17:20] the world’s leading pregnancy app. You know, we have 7 million pregnant women on it every day looking [00:17:25] for guidance and education. And what we’ve done there is to really build clinical [00:17:30] insight into a communication style that’s really easily understandable. [00:17:35] So we talked about the reading age of a 7 or 8 year old, and it makes it highly digestible for [00:17:40] everybody. And actually, who we want to get that education to is probably the underserved community, [00:17:45] the people who aren’t as well educated. And so it’s been a hugely successful to [00:17:50] demonstrate better education, which then leads to better care, right? And it’s obvious for well-educated [00:17:55] people. But if you talk to well, it was in those days, NHS England and we’re saying, how do [00:18:00] you get people to stop smoking when they’re pregnant in Liverpool? It’s a very specific target audience that you’re targeting. [00:18:05] And so I think access to education and [00:18:10] care is something that we’ve really doubled down on, and ensuring that products become [00:18:15] more personalised to your to your needs across the board.

Andrew Bower: So childcare, [00:18:20] we did an awful lot of research on flex for babies and drinking and [00:18:25] understanding that process. So I think it’s kind of education adoption is to products [00:18:30] and then making it more accessible. So yesterday we spoke briefly [00:18:35] and we’re talking about the Affordable Care Act in North America, which Obama brought in. Right. [00:18:40] And he very clearly said every new mother should have entitled to a breast, a breast [00:18:45] pump, because breast milk is the most important thing you can give to your baby and put the insurance codes [00:18:50] in place to enable that to happen. Right. I would love us to have a dialogue about how do [00:18:55] you unlock insurance codes on a national level to oral care. So it’s not the expense [00:19:00] that’s coming out of your individual pocket, but it’s something that’s supported by legislation [00:19:05] to make it more accessible. And I think it’s that change in [00:19:10] the narrative and the dialogue that we need to have to make oral health care more accessible. Bringing this conversation [00:19:15] to ensure people get the best care every day.

Payman Langroudi: So in your [00:19:20] time, you’ve worked at other companies or has your whole career been.

Andrew Bower: No, no, I have worked at other companies. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: But what, 20 years at Philips?

Andrew Bower: I’ve been 20 years at Philips. I started here in the UK, I’ve worked in Asia, I’ve worked in the Netherlands. [00:19:30] I’ve been around the world. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How important is oral care to Philips? Like what? [00:19:35] What percentage of its business is it?

Andrew Bower: It’s a it’s a. So if you think about [00:19:40] Philips, we have health systems on a personal health business. Our personal health business is significantly important for us. Um, [00:19:45] I’m sure you can Google our, our financial projections. [00:19:50]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean financially, but do you see that as the growth part.

Andrew Bower: It’s a great growth path. [00:19:55] Like we talk about consumers. We want to serve people. We want to help. Right. [00:20:00] Our ambition is to serve over 250 million people every day with [00:20:05] better oral health care. And how do we do that? Primarily with power toothbrushes. We also [00:20:10] do a lot of interdental care, and we also do whitening solutions. But ultimately, it’s critically [00:20:15] important because it links back to that systemic health story, right? Which [00:20:20] which we also actively invested on an enterprise level in a, in a health system, in [00:20:25] a hospital environment. Um, and so why [00:20:30] we have a consumer division in. Phillips is about prevention [00:20:35] and driving behavioural change for better health outcomes. So the businesses [00:20:40] that we have and we’ve kept hold of are still wholly focussed on that.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:20:45] how do you guys think about research? Do you outsource research and do [00:20:50] it in-house, or do you do it all in-house?

Andrew Bower: We we do a lot in-house. [00:20:55] We have a huge we have a great advanced development team, but we also work with a lot of clinical partners. [00:21:00] You know, um, for us, it’s absolutely critical that we have leading [00:21:05] opinions and cutting edge research from across the globe. You know, [00:21:10] um, Professor Chapel’s a great friend of ours, but we also have friends in every corner of the world. [00:21:15] And it’s really important for us to understand what’s happening in different corners of the world from [00:21:20] a research, um, but also from a beliefs perspective, right. And that [00:21:25] that informs us on our innovation process. The voice of the [00:21:30] clinician is absolutely critical in everything we do. So we’ll have them around the table [00:21:35] at our earliest concept stage of ideas, and we’ll go all the way through to clinical validation with [00:21:40] them to help us ensure that we deliver products that deliver what they should do on the [00:21:45] tin.

Payman Langroudi: But you told me that you’ve got research centres across the globe. What three?

Andrew Bower: Yeah, [00:21:50] we’ve got 3 or 4. Yeah, we’ve got four.

Payman Langroudi: And they work across categories.

Andrew Bower: No. These are all dedicated to oral [00:21:55] health care.

Payman Langroudi: Oh really? Three just for oral care. So do they work in conjunction with each other? [00:22:00]

Andrew Bower: Absolutely. And we have experts specialist expertise in different ones for different topics. [00:22:05]

Payman Langroudi: So what would you say is the biggest breakthrough for ellipses has come out with Philips. [00:22:10]

Andrew Bower: I’ll talk about oral health in this context rather than Philips. I think.

Payman Langroudi: So. I mean [00:22:15] in oral health.

Andrew Bower: In oral health, I think the big steps that change that we’re doing, have done, and you can see it now [00:22:20] is the connectivity that we brought to toothbrushes. Why was that so important? [00:22:25] We did it for kids and we did it for adults. For kids. We have [00:22:30] a character, sparkly, etc. who brushes your teeth with you, educates you, [00:22:35] and drives adherence to brushing two minutes a day.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on an.

Andrew Bower: App. It’s on an app.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Really, [00:22:40] really important. And we see child adoption to brushing significantly [00:22:45] increasing. Sparkly. Goes to bed, goes on holiday. Sparkly cleans your teeth. The whole narrative [00:22:50] around it. And then we put connectivity into into adult toothbrushes. And we saw adherence again [00:22:55] to brushing significantly step up. You know, I think it’s I think it’s 80% of people [00:23:00] in the app brush for two minutes, twice a day, which doesn’t sound much, but most people just brush for 60s. [00:23:05] Right? And so it’s an example of behavioural change [00:23:10] and that connectivity allowing you to do that. It also teaches you where the brush is and how [00:23:15] to brush in the mouth. You can see where it is on the app, etc., etc.. Which again are you covering blind spots, [00:23:20] are you not? So I think what we’re trying to do is continuously bring innovation [00:23:25] that drives personalised care. It helps you understand where you’ve got [00:23:30] spots that you need to clean, where you should clean a bit more, where you should invest more time, and that will help [00:23:35] ultimately drive better outcomes.

Payman Langroudi: Does that connect to the dentist as well?

Andrew Bower: No, not at this stage. [00:23:40] We have looked at it, we’ve looked at it, we’ve looked at connecting to the dentist. What are we going to be careful? [00:23:45] And this is also from my previous roles because you get into the telehealth discussion and remote patient [00:23:50] monitoring. We don’t want to add burden to the care pathway of the clinician. [00:23:55] We want to help them effectively. And in dentistry, [00:24:00] and we’re certainly in developed markets, we’re proactively going, um, we’re [00:24:05] not. Maybe it is a specific case you want to keep an eye on, but we haven’t seen the pull [00:24:10] from the clinical world to actually have that at the minute from [00:24:15] a, from a teledentistry perspective. And there’s many, many players out there, as you know, who have explored [00:24:20] it, but none have driven to mass adoption. So for us, we very much focus on that [00:24:25] personalisation.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say there’s even mass adoption of the app?

Andrew Bower: I think, um. [00:24:30]

Payman Langroudi: I expect most people just take the brush out and brush with it.

Andrew Bower: No, they do, they do. I think so. [00:24:35] It’s obviously a certain demographic. You want it and it’s a higher demographic who are using it. And I think the adoption [00:24:40] rates, I’ll be speculating, it’s 5,060% of [00:24:45] the app and continued usage up to a year. So it’s, you know, we are seeing people engaging. [00:24:50]

Payman Langroudi: How do you guys look at positioning? Because I don’t know, correct [00:24:55] me if I’m wrong. I think Philip’s stuff is positioned sort of at the top of the market. So [00:25:00] do you ever there must be someone somewhere always telling you, why don’t you bring out a cheaper [00:25:05] toothbrush?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think if you think about our mission as a Sonicare, it [00:25:10] might sound a bit. We want to democratise oral health. What do we mean by that? We want to [00:25:15] show that every person has access to a quality product that delivers clinical [00:25:20] efficacy and does a deep clean, and we believe we can offer that. We are positioned. [00:25:25] We do have a premium brand positioning. However, you know, we have price points [00:25:30] from £30 all the way through which deliver clinical outcomes. So [00:25:35] there is this narrative that we are too expensive. But actually we [00:25:40] spent the last couple of years revamping our entry portfolio, our portfolio to make [00:25:45] it more accessible because we know it has to be to appeal to more people. And we need to break that [00:25:50] apathy again of getting into people’s hands.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, part of it is the premium positioning [00:25:55] as well, right?

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t be all things to all people.

Andrew Bower: You can’t. But I think you [00:26:00] can drive an object of desire. Right. And that’s what we talk about where you do create an object of desire. We think we do anyway. [00:26:05] And it seems to test pretty well with consumers. So we want to be an aspiration, but we want people [00:26:10] to be able to have accessibility to it. We’re not in a market of just serving [00:26:15] the premium consumer. You know, we’re in a market of democratising oral [00:26:20] health for everybody, and that makes it we’ve got to make it accessible for everybody, and that sits on our shoulders to make [00:26:25] sure we can do that.

Payman Langroudi: I want to get more onto your personal [00:26:30] journey of how how did you get to this point? Why did you move to oral care? Or did [00:26:35] they move you to oral care? How does it work?

Andrew Bower: How does it work? No, I did [00:26:40] a similar role for, like I said, Women’s Health Division before I [00:26:45] took this role. And what attracted me to oral [00:26:50] health is, is the systemic health link. You know, the bigger health implications, [00:26:55] you know, that it could play. And they asked me if I was generally interested in taking this opportunity [00:27:00] and also looking at how we change the relationship that we drive with clinicians across the globe, which [00:27:05] I think is a really nice challenge to look at because the motivational [00:27:10] drivers of them is tremendously different depending where I look. You know, I speak [00:27:15] to dentists and where they exist, hygienists, because that’s not everywhere wherever [00:27:20] I go. And it’s really interesting to learn their preconceptions now. So [00:27:25] I’m in a I’m in a dental office in China and I’m talking to the dentist. And the first question I ask them, are [00:27:30] you using a Sonicare? Now I use a manual. Why? Because I can do good. I can do a good enough job. [00:27:35] Okay. What about the literature? Mhm. So there’s some grassroots [00:27:40] education also within the industry that we need to break, break [00:27:45] through to, to. To get them to support [00:27:50] our mission effectively. Um, and yeah, so why [00:27:55] I took that role was actually because I think the challenge is fantastic. And there’s a great opportunity [00:28:00] and there’s such an underserved population out there that we can do something, something about. And that’s [00:28:05] what I get excited about.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I ask you what’s been the darkest day [00:28:10] on your journey.

Andrew Bower: Professionally or personally?

Payman Langroudi: Professionally?

Andrew Bower: Look, [00:28:15] I think professionally in the world that I’m in.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes it’s mixed, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:28:20]

Andrew Bower: It is, it is. And I’ll be honest with you, one leads to another. You know, if you get it wrong professionally, [00:28:25] it does have a personal impact on you. Um, darkest [00:28:30] time of my journey is when I’ve launched, I went, I launched the world’s first medical grade [00:28:35] parenting app, parenting, parenting app. So I wanted to drive data [00:28:40] on newborn children to help parents have a voice. And it didn’t [00:28:45] resonate as much as we thought it would. And that’s a bit upsetting, right?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been, I’ve been [00:28:50] there.

Andrew Bower: It’s like you’re a corporate venturing, as you say, and it was a corporate venture and I was leading this corporate venture [00:28:55] and it didn’t resonate. And then you had to pull the plug and you’re like, there’s a tough love [00:29:00] that, you know, the element of actually accepting. We can’t afford to keep investing in [00:29:05] this. It’s a good idea. Are we too soon? The best answer is it’s too soon. Because then you [00:29:10] can say, oh, we’ll come back to it later. But no, but actually the market has to be right. And [00:29:15] if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not, if you’re not failing, you’re not trying.

Andrew Bower: You’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Learning, you’re not, you’re not trying enough stuff. But [00:29:20] I think in corporate, sometimes everyone’s trying to sort of protect their own job. And so [00:29:25] trying stuff is quite hard.

Andrew Bower: I think, um, being I like the term [00:29:30] entrepreneurial, you know, you need people who are speedboats in oil tankers to try and drive change. [00:29:35] Um, and that’s what we try and do to try and get ahead of the curve. And that takes [00:29:40] a healthy aspect of, um, risk, but [00:29:45] calculated risk about what are the parameters you’re going [00:29:50] to work with and what not. And being very honest about when it’s working and when it’s not and when you’re going [00:29:55] to pass the scale. Right. Um, I was running a venture in India before I took this [00:30:00] role, which was really supporting women with PCOS. And [00:30:05] the goal there was. We suddenly realised the whole [00:30:10] glue to the proposition was actually about personal connection and actually [00:30:15] building a community of people who are suffering the same condition. And yes, we’re offering we’re offering nutrition [00:30:20] plans, lifestyle coaching, yoga classes. We do a whole behaviour [00:30:25] change and we actually realise it’s about human connection. So how do we how can we dial that up to help people? [00:30:30] Um, so yeah, it’s um, but that’s healthy experiment and [00:30:35] allowing the space to test that and protecting teams to do it. And I think that’s the art [00:30:40] in corporates about how do you protect a team to try something. Yeah. And then if it works, [00:30:45] how does it scale?

Payman Langroudi: Certainly some some some corporates manage. Right. [00:30:50] They do.

Andrew Bower: They do. And you know many corporates are successful in this. But you’ve got to get that balance right.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:30:55]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about the opposite. What comes to mind if I say what was the best day.

Andrew Bower: The best day. Oh [00:31:00] many, many good days. I think on the opposite side, you launch a product or service that’s [00:31:05] certainly has huge market reaction. And people, it generally improves their day to day [00:31:10] experience, their great days. And then it’s actually really nice then to do that time and [00:31:15] spend the time with the consumer and the customer having dialogues, talking about it. What’s working? What [00:31:20] can you enhance, what you can improve? But people are generally excited to help you. So the best days are when people [00:31:25] are kind of on the idea, the building and co-creating with you.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:31:30] specifically one of these apps.

Andrew Bower: Apps or one of the devices [00:31:35] or services that we bring. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about if I ask you, what’s your biggest mistake that you’ve made [00:31:40] in your career?

Andrew Bower: Mm. Biggest mistake. Um [00:31:45] biggest mistake. It’s [00:31:50] a hard one. I think I’ve launched I’ve [00:31:55] launched things that weren’t ready. And what I mean by that, I’ve put a product out there that I wasn’t happy with [00:32:00] or a service that I wasn’t happy with. And deep down, I probably knew it. And [00:32:05] there was an element you’ve got to listen to your gut.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: And you’ve got to listen to that gut and act on that gut. And [00:32:10] if you don’t, there’s something, there’s something wrong. So I think as you as you continue in your career, I [00:32:15] think the voice of the voice of your gut becomes a bit stronger with your experiences, and you shouldn’t ignore it because [00:32:20] it actually tells you an awful lot about is this good or is it bad?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:32:25] you don’t want to go into exactly what it was.

Andrew Bower: Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: You want to go into exactly what it was? That’s [00:32:30] a no no. We [00:32:35] could all take it. Okay. Now going forwards. [00:32:40]

Andrew Bower: 2040 back to 2040.

Payman Langroudi: Back to 2040.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you [00:32:45] told me there’s many things you guys are thinking. There’s some things you can’t talk about.

Andrew Bower: Exactly. [00:32:50]

Payman Langroudi: What can you talk about?

Andrew Bower: Look, I think we can talk about I think we can the key consumer [00:32:55] trends. And we’re going to see consumer clinical trends, right? There’s no doubt we’re [00:33:00] seeing from a consumer perspective that there’s different motivational drivers towards oral care, [00:33:05] right? There’s the element of I just want to clean my teeth, get on with it. Element [00:33:10] of I want a healthy body. There’s an element of I want to look beautiful. And [00:33:15] so you’ve seen different motivational drivers, and I think you see the industry shifting a little bit towards that, you know, [00:33:20] self-confidence, mental health all plays a role and also connects to the oral [00:33:25] health experience. And what we offer, you know, you’re, you’re in a world of whitening as [00:33:30] well. You know, you whiten your teeth, you look after them, but you’ve got to have strong foundations to be able to whiten them. [00:33:35] Right. And I think we’re going to see, and things like that really [00:33:40] drive active interest in it. So I think what we’re going to see, certainly from consumer [00:33:45] side, different different motivational drivers and people and therefore people investing in oral health for different [00:33:50] reasons. We talk a lot about systemic health.

Andrew Bower: Some people don’t care about that if we’re honest about it. Some of [00:33:55] us just want good white teeth to look beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And so I think the motivational drivers [00:34:00] are different. And I think it’s really important that we recognise that because we’re ultimately driving the [00:34:05] same outcome, health benefits. But the path to it is different. [00:34:10] I think then, like I said, from the initial perspective, we can see great [00:34:15] integration. I think we’re going to see far more better integration. I think, you know, total [00:34:20] health health, health clinics is going to continue to explode. [00:34:25] I expect we’re already seeing it here, right? We’re going to see it [00:34:30] in the US. And I think we’re going to see far more patient record integration. [00:34:35] You know, if you think about things like epic are doing in the US and really trying to connect the data or enabling us to connect [00:34:40] the data points, that’s going to see a profound shift in the system. And [00:34:45] I’m excited to see where that goes because there’s going to be a conversion, right? When does general practice [00:34:50] singularity come together as one, right, as the total wellness place? Yeah. Um, [00:34:55] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what was the thing that surprised you the most [00:35:00] about dentists, dental practices, the dental sector? When [00:35:05] you came to us?

Andrew Bower: When I came into it. Again, [00:35:10] different things for different reasons, right? Yeah. I think [00:35:15] people in the industry, I, I was quite surprised by the entrepreneurial [00:35:20] spirit in the dentist world, if I’m honest with you. I’ve met a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, there’s [00:35:25] a lot of entrepreneurs, people who want to drive the clinical medical, but also want to run a business. And [00:35:30] looking at that, that surprised me. Um, and therefore is a knock on effect. I was quite [00:35:35] surprised by the commercial aspect in some regions and certainly in North America, you know, discussions [00:35:40] we’re having with practice managers, practice owners, how do you scale the revenue, etc.. That’s surprising me a little bit. [00:35:45] And what also surprised me was when I went more to Asia, the [00:35:50] lack of investment in oral health, you know, I everyone takes [00:35:55] good care of their teeth, right? And I’m a clinician and I can’t stand their breath. There’s something going on [00:36:00] here, right? Like, why is that? And I’m like, why, why are we [00:36:05] so much more developed here in the West? And certainly kind of Western Europe and North America than we are [00:36:10] in China. Japan when it comes to oral health. What’s the underlying cause for that? That completely surprised me. And [00:36:15] I wonder, and this is a complete hypothesis, right? Is it truly about the clinical research [00:36:20] that we’ve done there versus here and the acceptance of clinical research? I don’t know. Um, [00:36:25] but that really shocked me. It really shocked me when I came into the category.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. [00:36:30] I mean, I remember during Covid, some of the, [00:36:35] when you say businessmen, the people that even [00:36:40] a single practice owner, some of the resourcefulness that people showed at that time, [00:36:45] you know, getting, getting their team on board, communicating with their patients, all the PPE [00:36:50] stuff, when really we didn’t know what was going to happen. No one knew what was going [00:36:55] to happen. Some people, I remember thinking, what the hell is going to happen to our whole business [00:37:00] at that same time? There were people investing heavily, building out, [00:37:05] adding extra surgeries, you know, Confident in the idea that things [00:37:10] will get back to normal again. And as a profession, I think, you know, I [00:37:15] think we’re lucky in one sense that in in an uptime, [00:37:20] we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But in a recession we do quite well.

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:37:25] there aren’t many businesses like that.

Andrew Bower: There isn’t. And there is the, the capital, shall [00:37:30] we say, play in Covid where, you know, it’s a time to invest when the market’s down, right? Yeah, yeah. [00:37:35] Down people to invest. So if you’re selling, people are doing that. But I agree with you. It is relatively [00:37:40] robust shall we say. Um, I think we’re seeing increased consolidation [00:37:45] across the board. And, and I think why I think we’re seeing that [00:37:50] is due to the administration side of things, right. Administration doesn’t get [00:37:55] easier. It gets more intense. And how can I offload that to focus on my practice [00:38:00] and the care I provide?

Payman Langroudi: I think when you deal with Bupa [00:38:05] As as a group. And then when you deal with other groups, you see [00:38:10] how differently people manage their businesses completely. And by the way, every [00:38:15] single practice, I must have visited a thousand practices. Each one is very different where [00:38:20] you’d imagine everything’s very similar. Um, and at this conference, I’ve noticed [00:38:25] and you guys really massive kudos to Bupa that I find it difficult [00:38:30] getting culture over to our 35 people.

Andrew Bower: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And you guys are 8000 [00:38:35] people and you’ve got the same sort of feeling, nice feeling [00:38:40] in the atmosphere of this conference. How do you guys deal with culture? What is [00:38:45] it to be working at Philips? What’s the difference between working at Philips and working somewhere else? [00:38:50]

Andrew Bower: It sounds it’s all about purpose. You know, every person you speak to at Philips is about the purpose, [00:38:55] and the purpose is about improving lives. And yes, it is a a big corporate enterprise. [00:39:00] And we play in every corner of the world. But everyone is motivated to drive positive [00:39:05] outcomes for either patients or consumers and clinicians. And [00:39:10] that purpose is what drives, drives us and being very single minded on that. Um, that’s [00:39:15] the rallying message. And I think that’s been.

Payman Langroudi: Practically how do you do it? I mean.

Andrew Bower: Oh, practically. [00:39:20]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve got an office in Jakarta and you want to change something. How do [00:39:25] you get that story through so many people, how.

Andrew Bower: We do things like this, right. We do things like this conference. Yeah, yeah. You know, [00:39:30] we bring people from around the globe together. We bring them together twice a year. We talk about what’s coming, [00:39:35] what’s working, what are we going to do next? And we’ve got, since Covid, [00:39:40] shall we say, incredibly good at doing all of that virtually. Yeah. You know, we have big regional hubs. We will [00:39:45] do a big event like this. We’ll bring people in. We’ll also do big watch parties, you know, and we’ll try and drive that [00:39:50] message. And then we’ll repeat that message every time we travel and we’re in there and we’ll host something to do [00:39:55] the same thing. But repetition is key, and creating a sense of belonging [00:40:00] is absolutely key. You know, you’ve got a sense of purpose, you’ve got a sense of belonging, and you feel empowered to do your work. [00:40:05] People are very loyal and people want to achieve good things. And that’s absolutely critical [00:40:10] for driving, shall we say, engagement and driving successful outcomes, both clinically [00:40:15] but also financially.

Payman Langroudi: How have you guys implemented AI in the business so [00:40:20] far? Do you see it as being much bigger thing going [00:40:25] forward?

Andrew Bower: I think AI is going to revolutionise everything we do. I think [00:40:30] we will lead with people, will drive process with AI, and [00:40:35] we are continuously looking at user cases and piloting [00:40:40] across the business, whether that’s supply chain, whether that’s R&D, whether [00:40:45] that’s marketing, whether that’s Dental. Ai is adopted everywhere, [00:40:50] and we are on a absolute mantra to get everybody [00:40:55] using AI every day to ensure that they can drive efficiencies. I [00:41:00] think, And I. And I think it’s going to truly help. I think [00:41:05] the one thing that we’re not talking about AI is the rising cost of AI. You know.

Payman Langroudi: The token [00:41:10] cost.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, the token cost, the token cost is incredibly, incredibly low. But it’s a big business [00:41:15] risk, right? That will go up. The more we get addicted, the more it’s going to go up. So it’s something we [00:41:20] have to plan for. You know, as we look at risk profiling as a business that actually the cost of AI [00:41:25] is going to is going to tremendously increase as we we continue then. [00:41:30]

Payman Langroudi: Have you had a frank conversation about job losses at Philips [00:41:35] because of AI?

Andrew Bower: Um. We. [00:41:40] The job losses, [00:41:45] productivity, as we would call it, productivity. Yes [00:41:50] and no. Right. Have we got to the stage yet where we think AI is replacing [00:41:55] people? No. Do we think we can make people more efficient? Yes. Could that lead to productivity [00:42:00] in the long term potentially, or it means the repurposing of people where we are. You know, I [00:42:05] take my my example, right? We’ve got a, you know, a workforce [00:42:10] in the US who visiting dentists every day. And I’ve also got a big workforce [00:42:15] who sat in a central office in Nashville who are answering customer calls. Yeah. Do I [00:42:20] believe that we can enhance that customer experience and that 100% [00:42:25] with AI? Do I think we could use that workforce 100%? Can I reapply that into [00:42:30] the field 100%? I want to focus on building relationships and automate everything [00:42:35] else we can do. To me. I see it more as repurpose and focus [00:42:40] on the people and then optimise where we can with with automation.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a good way [00:42:45] of looking at it, but but at the same time, you know, the two things must go together. If you can increase [00:42:50] productivity with fewer people, then there [00:42:55] must be a conversation, which I don’t hear the conversation very much at all anywhere.

Andrew Bower: No, it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: What happens when [00:43:00] people lose their jobs.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, I think I think.

Payman Langroudi: Not only to them, what happens to all of us. [00:43:05]

Andrew Bower: Happens to all of us. No, I fully.

Payman Langroudi: Agree with toothbrushes.

Andrew Bower: I fully agree with you. And I think to me, the question is, is it about people losing jobs or [00:43:10] can you drive? Exponential growth in the business.

Payman Langroudi: Continued across the board?

Andrew Bower: No. Or can you drive that? [00:43:15] Can that can I help us drive step change to growth of the business that allows us to continuously invest in people? [00:43:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Very interesting. It’s been a massive pleasure.

Andrew Bower: To have you. [00:43:25]

Payman Langroudi: If there’s any questions, the QR code and I’ll read [00:43:30] out some of my favourites. Has anyone got any questions. Oh there are. What [00:43:35] is your ultimate [00:43:40] day look like. Oh personal or professional.

Andrew Bower: Oh my ultimate day. [00:43:45] Ultimate day. Get up, get up at six. Jim. Jim by 630 in the office by 830. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Do you do that? Anyway?

Andrew Bower: I do that three times a week in the office. 830 If I’m in [00:43:55] the office, ideally speaking to a customer or a consumer first thing, either [00:44:00] connect or go and visit one. Come back. Then, with the team reviewing [00:44:05] whatever projects we have going on, and then ideally spend a bit [00:44:10] of time at the end of the day, uh, reading consumer or clinical verbatims [00:44:15] of what’s happening.

Payman Langroudi: Are [00:44:20] you going to fight to zoom versus enlighten? I like that. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that’s a great one.

Payman Langroudi: Anonymous question. [00:44:25] Everyone [00:44:30] talks about AI and 3D printing, [00:44:35] but what’s on trend in dentistry for 2040 that you think is totally overhyped right now? What a. [00:44:40]

Andrew Bower: Brilliant.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant, brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: What’s overhyped? Brilliant [00:44:45] question, brilliant question. I [00:44:50] could argue systemic health.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, everyone’s [00:44:55] talking about it.

Andrew Bower: Talking about it. We’ve got a long way to go to it, right? Um, again, [00:45:00] you know, you’ve got to drive visibility. [00:45:05] Visibility creates a bias to action. And is it how deep does it [00:45:10] have to go to make people just care, take better care of themselves?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Another, [00:45:15] another mischievous one. What sets Sonicare apart from Oral-B? I don’t [00:45:20] need to answer.

Andrew Bower: Give me 30s for the pitch.

Payman Langroudi: Go for it, go [00:45:25] for it.

Andrew Bower: Look, I think our job is to drive manual to power conversion, right? We want people who are using a manual [00:45:30] toothbrush to use a Sonicare. And I believe Sonicare is an easier way to transition because you don’t have to [00:45:35] change your behaviour how you brush. So convert with Sonicare. Do you use a Sonicare?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I do.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:40]

Payman Langroudi: I love.

Andrew Bower: It.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I do, I do. It’s my favourite.

Andrew Bower: Good. [00:45:45]

Payman Langroudi: I haven’t tried the incumbent. Sorry. The new the new insurgent that [00:45:50] everyone’s talking about. Interesting question. Philips is an $18 billion [00:45:55] global health tech. Org with heavy regulatory, safety and quality obligations [00:46:00] at smaller start ups don’t carry. How do you innovate at speed, especially when [00:46:05] clinicians increasingly want to trial new solutions quickly and start-ups can iterate in [00:46:10] days rather than quarters. What a brilliant question.

Andrew Bower: A brilliant question, and hit the nail on the head, right? How [00:46:15] do you drive agility in a corporate, in a corporate? And that’s actually one of the key challenges, right? Yeah. [00:46:20] We have to continuously look at how we drive that agility to keep up speed, but [00:46:25] nothing compromises on quality. And what I mean quality, I mean also [00:46:30] regulatory. And I also mean clinical efficacy. So we will only deliver products that [00:46:35] truly add a benefit. And that takes a little bit longer than me going to China buying a toothbrush and put it on the market. [00:46:40] I could do that tomorrow. I won’t do that. I’ll make sure that it works. Yeah. [00:46:45]

Payman Langroudi: But but the question still stands insomuch as how, how do you do, [00:46:50] how do you do agility across such a.

Andrew Bower: So I think for us Supertanker. Well, it comes back [00:46:55] to. Actually, it comes back to your first question. How far ahead do you think. Yeah. You think on a ten year horizon [00:47:00] it’s actually not about the agility of the day. It’s about actually predicting the future and making [00:47:05] sure you have your work streams in place to deliver on that, on a cadence that makes sense. And actually [00:47:10] looking at the business cadence of what you deliver is the key to beating that, because then it’s [00:47:15] sustainable and it’s replicable and builds off platforms which are critical for [00:47:20] delivering.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Mark talks about legacy. [00:47:25]

Andrew Bower: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you want your legacy to be in your time?

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:47:30] my legacy to be. That’s a good question. Yeah, I think. I [00:47:35] want my legacy to be [00:47:40] that we’ve managed to again, we’ve, I’ve significantly created products and services that [00:47:45] have improved patients and consumers lives. So if I can look back on my career and say, [00:47:50] actually, these devices or services made an impact to improve someone’s well-being [00:47:55] on a day to day basis. I’d be very happy.

Payman Langroudi: Final Dental [00:48:00] Leaders question. We tend to end with the fantasy dinner party. Three guests, [00:48:05] three guests. Dead or alive.

Andrew Bower: Ernest Shackleton.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Andrew Bower: Fantastic [00:48:10] leadership story and survival. Probably one of the greatest.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t [00:48:15] tell the audience. If someone.

Andrew Bower: Yeah, if you don’t know. He went. He went down to the South Pole, got stuck, spent [00:48:20] a winter trying to get out of there, then made a small boat, sailed it for another [00:48:25] few months across the Southern Ocean. Hit an island, hiked over an island, [00:48:30] came back a year later, and not one of his team members had died. Tremendous story. [00:48:35] I think Leonardo da Vinci. I think fabulous, creative, [00:48:40] but also engineer. I admire his engineering.

Payman Langroudi: Both sides.

Andrew Bower: Yeah. And I [00:48:45] admire his engineering more than his art, if I’m honest with you. I think absolute genius when it comes to engineering, [00:48:50] which is absolutely fascinating. And I’m just personally [00:48:55] interested in Nelson Mandela also from his leadership, leadership and [00:49:00] tenacity. How do you continue to keep going when the, shall [00:49:05] we say, the bricks or whatever is pretty low? Yeah. So yeah, I think it’d be quite a fun dinner. [00:49:10] Well, it might not be that fun, but it’d be really interesting doing a party.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been a pleasure [00:49:15] having you. Thank you.

Andrew Bower: For being.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Andrew Bower: Open. Thank you for being here. And to you for having me here. Thank you. Appreciate [00:49:20] it. It [00:49:25] was a bit of joining in there. I like that.

Andrew Bower: So now it’s time for the final session of the day. [00:49:30] I’m going to spend about 90 minutes taking you through everything that we’ve covered. No, seriously. [00:49:35] I’m just going to do a few wrap up comments just to finish the day before I do [00:49:40] that. I must do this now. Otherwise I will forget. I’ve got to take a selfie with the whole [00:49:45] audience. So come on, show some energy like you’re enjoying yourself. Brilliant. [00:49:50] That will be on Mark Alan Dental [00:49:55] on Instagram later. I’ve I’ve got 803 followers now, so I’m [00:50:00] doing quite well. Maybe I can get to 810 by the end of the the the day. So yeah, [00:50:05] just a few closing thoughts from me. Um, first of all, I want to say a massive [00:50:10] thank you to everyone who’s been involved in putting this incredible event together. Firstly, [00:50:15] our sponsors, you’ve seen their names all over the shop on the screen, you’ve seen their [00:50:20] videos, you’ve seen their stands. And none of this would be possible without the contribution that they [00:50:25] make. So a massive thank you to everyone who’s been involved from that perspective. Um, [00:50:30] ICC [00:50:35] Birmingham, I think it’s been a tremendous location. We’ve basically taken the whole place over [00:50:40] for two days. You’ve seen Dental health is live. You’ve seen Bupa dental care everywhere, but [00:50:45] the way the venues worked and the support we’ve had has also been amazing, as has the support we’ve had from [00:50:50] telex.

Andrew Bower: Who are the team you see buzzing around, miking us up and making sure everything runs to plan? [00:50:55] So thank you to both ICC Birmingham and Telex. And [00:51:00] the biggest thank [00:51:05] you is to the team of people who’ve put this together. We started the journey of doing [00:51:10] the second Dental Health is live conference about a year ago. So much earlier than the [00:51:15] last one. Um, the team have done an incredible job. If you saw how smoothly [00:51:20] the organisation has gone, um, the, the, what’s the right, the right [00:51:25] word, they just haven’t been demanding of, of any of our time. They’ve asked us for decisions when we’ve needed them. [00:51:30] They’ve given us everything we needed. I went on and on and on about the need for [00:51:35] a beating blue heart, wherever you can see it. And they managed to deliver that. Um, honestly, [00:51:40] the organisation has been incredible and the working party, you all know who you are [00:51:45] have been superb, but in particular, Christian and Vicky, who’ve been at the forefront [00:51:50] of everything, have done an unbelievable job of putting something like this together. It’s really hard to do. [00:51:55] So thank you so much for creating the experience. So [00:52:05] you’ve probably noticed over the last two days, pretty much everything has been put together and hangs [00:52:10] on this, this formula here, the four P’s, the new places rather than practices. [00:52:15]

Andrew Bower: And then we introduced this concept of, of as one, this incredible [00:52:20] opportunity that we’ve got with all of these unique assets that we have within the Bupa group that [00:52:25] make us different to all of our competitors. And the other thing that’s been really true, I think about [00:52:30] as one is even yesterday when I was on the stage, I still felt a bit like we were still talking about [00:52:35] Bupa like some other company. Um, but I feel like somehow in the last 24 hours that’s [00:52:40] evaporated and I genuinely feel like I’m in a room of people who either work with Bupa as clinicians [00:52:45] or work for Bupa as employees. And trust me, that is incredibly powerful [00:52:50] for us to be able to now move forward as one organisation, all pointing in the same direction, and then enabling [00:52:55] us to deliver that performance health that we’re looking to do, which, as we said yesterday, enables [00:53:00] us then to keep reinvesting in the business and keep moving forward and making sure that we can be at the forefront [00:53:05] of that 2040 picture that we just heard about. Um, I hope [00:53:10] you’ve all got over the shock of a bunch of dancers appearing at the start of yesterday. Um, I, [00:53:15] I’ve watched that video back about 30 times and it gave me real energy. Um, and if [00:53:20] you remember, when I came on, I talked about that piece that they did being about empowerment.

Andrew Bower: And we said over [00:53:25] these two days, our job with all of you is to try and harness the energy here and unlock [00:53:30] something special so that we can go and do amazing things together. Um, and I feel [00:53:35] like again, that’s been really harnessed and the energy, honestly, over the last two days has been absolutely [00:53:40] superb. I guess the thing with conferences like this is. [00:53:45] First of all, they do cost a lot of money. Secondly, they take a bit of time in organising. [00:53:50] There’s a massive sacrifice from all of you to be here. Clinicians not being in in [00:53:55] surgery, you not being in your practices. Um, I saw the trading results from yesterday [00:54:00] at 1040 this morning and I felt a little bit sick and a bit depressed. Um, [00:54:05] but this is a massive investment and it’s only worth doing if we move beyond [00:54:10] just having a really nice time for two days. But if we go back to our practices, to our support [00:54:15] centre, to our functions, and basically decide that we’re going to start doing things even better [00:54:20] tomorrow, we’re going to take the stuff that we’ve taken on board, the things that you’ve learned in the in the [00:54:25] clinical sessions or the, the other learning sessions, or just the messages that you’ve picked up or the conversations [00:54:30] that you’ve had.

Andrew Bower: We have to take that and then kick on again tomorrow. And it’s [00:54:35] not about doing loads more new things. It’s about taking the spirit of this conference [00:54:40] and integrating it into your to do lists and resolving to be even better and just fill those gaps, [00:54:45] particularly that piece around the leaky bucket. So please do take this and take [00:54:50] it back in with you. Um, tomorrow there is a dental health is live [00:54:55] um, toolkit in a box. I think that’s on its way to you that you can then go back and share [00:55:00] with your practices and try and keep that spirit going. So please do everything you can to, to really [00:55:05] make sure we keep this energy going. And the final thing for me really is [00:55:10] just to say a massive thank you to all of you. Honestly, it’s been a real privilege to be part [00:55:15] of it. It’s been really great to be able to spend time with, with, with all of you watching the energy last night, [00:55:20] even people trying to drag me up. I did make it onto the dance floor. I was in the centre of the [00:55:25] mosh pit, which I thought was fine. Um, but my dance lie at the start of yesterday’s [00:55:30] session was exposed when I saw a video this morning of some really, really bad dad dancing.

Andrew Bower: Um, [00:55:35] but your energy’s been really superb. And what’s been really energising [00:55:40] for me personally is two things. One is the number of people who’ve come up to tell me [00:55:45] that the things that we’re doing are making a difference. So, you know, I’ve got this new chair. Thank you. [00:55:50] This has been great. Or I’ve learned something. That session really moved me. All of that stuff is great. [00:55:55] But what’s just as powerful is a number of you have still come up and said, can I talk to you? In fact, I’ve [00:56:00] seen you out of the corner of my eye, waiting while I’m talking to someone else. And I’ve spoken to you and you’ve [00:56:05] said, thank you for the conference. It’s been great, but can I tell you about something that’s still not good enough? And [00:56:10] that is what will help us move forward. We mustn’t lose that ability to keep calling out the things that we need [00:56:15] to do better, and particularly that us as a Dental executive team need to stay focussed [00:56:20] on so we make your lives easier so you can carry on doing amazing things for our patients. So thank [00:56:25] you so much for everything. It’s a real privilege to to have been here with you over the last two days. [00:56:30] And please have a safe journey back to wherever you’re travelling. So thanks very much.

Payman Langroudi: Anterior composites are an area that a lot of us have trouble with, and the [00:00:05] magic that you get from a patient where you haven’t drilled their teeth and yet [00:00:10] you’ve improved their appearance, is something that you know. The more whitening you do, the more aligners [00:00:15] you do, the more anterior composites you’ll have to do. If you’re not 100% on them, [00:00:20] get yourself on a course like Mini Smile Makeover with Dipesh Parmar. Visit Mini Smile [00:00:25] makeover.com for dates and details.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [00:00:40] in dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me [00:00:50] great pleasure to welcome Ian Dunn onto the podcast. Ian is a specialist periodontist [00:00:55] um taught at Liverpool You clan, I noticed [00:01:00] and also teach GDPs on as well with the um, perio [00:01:05] courses. That’s right. Um, massive pleasure to have you, my buddy. Thanks for coming. Finally. [00:01:10] It’s been.

Payman Langroudi: A pleasure. I know we’ve been talking about this for a very long time, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Definitely.

Payman Langroudi: I remember getting the message from you about a [00:01:15] couple of weeks ago saying, where are we up to with this? And yeah, the last message before that was about nine months ago, I think. So [00:01:20] somehow we got lost in the aether, didn’t we?

Payman Langroudi: And you’re a Scouser? Born and bred.

Payman Langroudi: I am, yeah, for my [00:01:25] sins. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what, the University of Liverpool as well?

Payman Langroudi: No. Uh, I [00:01:30] chose I went to Leeds. Yeah. Um, but then I ended up moving straight [00:01:35] back because my girlfriend at the time was also from Liverpool. Um, and she was [00:01:40] a solicitor, so she got her first legal job there and that dragged us, dragged me back to Liverpool [00:01:45] to sort of be with her.

Payman Langroudi: That’s your wife.

Payman Langroudi: Now. Yeah. And she is now my wife, so it was a good move. [00:01:50]

Payman Langroudi: Did you meet him in university?

Payman Langroudi: No, we actually met at home. Believe it or not, she was at university [00:01:55] in Manchester. Um, we met at home. We struck up a relationship. We made it work while [00:02:00] we were both away at uni, and, uh. Yeah, it’s. We’ve all lived happily ever after.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:05] which which student were you?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:02:10] was probably I was a bit of a work hard, play hard type person.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:02:15] I was certainly successful humans. Yeah. I needed [00:02:20] to work hard. I don’t think I’m naturally gifted in terms of intelligence. I’m not stupid, [00:02:25] but I’m not super academic. Um, I don’t mind telling you, I reset [00:02:30] one of my A-levels because I dipped out initially and did an extra year to go, you know, get what I [00:02:35] wanted. I do think once I got to university, I did thrive because I’d found the thing [00:02:40] that I loved and I found studying much easier than I had found my A-levels.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I really did. [00:02:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s different. Yeah, people get shocked. I got shocked in university. Biochemistry and anatomy. [00:02:50] I broke my heart.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t get me wrong, the first year was a chore. But once I hit the clinical bit, I. [00:02:55]

Payman Langroudi: Love.

Payman Langroudi: That. I loved it, I absolutely loved it. Um, and so yeah, [00:03:00] but then in, in the background, I was a swimmer and water polo player. So I captained [00:03:05] the water polo team at the university. So that was a big part of my life. And also a big part of the social, [00:03:10] the social scene. Um, and I was the first person to put my hand up for a party or, you [00:03:15] know, so I really did. Yeah. University was just.

Payman Langroudi: Which one were you? What years were you in Leeds? [00:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: 93 to 98. It’s a really good time. Leeds was changing. It went from [00:03:25] a sort of a Yorkshire city town to what was quite a sort of booming, [00:03:30] more cosmopolitan city. Harvey Nicks came to Leeds at that time.

Payman Langroudi: I remember.

Payman Langroudi: Um [00:03:35] and it was great. It was a great time to be a student in Leeds, really was.

Payman Langroudi: I was there recently for a [00:03:40] okay. And it reminded me that back when we started enlightened, obviously, [00:03:45] I used to go see dentists and stuff, and I’d been to Leeds a few times and [00:03:50] I got almost like a weird sort of a flashback of [00:03:55] because it’s that pedestrianised zone, isn’t it? And I used to carry this light activated [00:04:00] machine. Teeth whitening, teeth whitening machine in Leeds. I [00:04:05] walked into a place. Do you remember those Polaroid cameras? Yeah, they were for Dental. They [00:04:10] were?

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yes, yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Yeah. So I walked into this practice carrying this machine [00:04:15] and a computer and all that.

Payman Langroudi: And they were huge, weren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: And the camera around my neck. And I remember [00:04:20] I pushed the button by mistake and took a photo. I was like, I took a photo. [00:04:25] It’s a joke, man. Um, so did you think [00:04:30] that you made a decision to be very good at dentistry [00:04:35] in university or after that? Because obviously this decision came [00:04:40] in at one point when you said you want to do periodontics, but years later. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But [00:04:45] I’d like to think that that was more of an accident, if I’m being truly honest. I see a lot of young graduates who [00:04:50] are very focussed and very driven. Um, I think we’re a similar vintage when you go back. I [00:04:55] qualified in 98, and that was the year that the high street specialist list was sort.

Payman Langroudi: Of coming out. [00:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: That was the that was the year it became on the scene. So prior to that, you either were a GDP or you [00:05:05] were a hospital specialist. There wasn’t really a blurred sort of high street specialist. There was 1 [00:05:10] or 2. There was your Mike Wiser’s. And in the North West we had people like David Cohen, the Endodontist [00:05:15] and Phil Green. But it really wasn’t a thing. Um, and so none of us really, [00:05:20] at that time thought about specialisation unless you knew you wanted a career in the hospital. So [00:05:25] I enjoyed my university and I didn’t want to be rubbish, but I don’t [00:05:30] think I set myself out to be anything special. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t you, I mean, did you have [00:05:35] dentists or medics in the family?

Payman Langroudi: I’m the first person in my family to go to university. Really? So my dad [00:05:40] was a policeman. Uh, my mum worked for, of all things master suite company. Really? [00:05:45] So, uh, sort of the reverse of Willy Wonka. So the dentist, Dad [00:05:50] and the chocolatey taste son were the other way around.

Payman Langroudi: So why dentist? How did it come about?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:05:55] that’s another story. So I did maths, physics and chemistry, with maths [00:06:00] and physics being my strong subjects. Me too. Um. Pick my A-levels with a view to being an engineer. [00:06:05] And I remember going to a careers day at Liverpool University to decide [00:06:10] on whether I was going to do chemical, electrical, mechanical. And every lecture I [00:06:15] went into, I walked out going, yeah, it’s not that one. And then I go to the next one and walk out. It’s not [00:06:20] that one. And then I got to the end and I was like, oh God, I don’t know what I’m going to do. And genuinely, [00:06:25] there was a panic. Um, so I then went to a, [00:06:30] a careers evening at my school. Um, this is at lower [00:06:35] sixth and I’ve got to make a decision by the Christmas for my Ucca form, as we called [00:06:40] it back then. Yeah. And I really didn’t have a clue because engineering was written off for [00:06:45] me. It had not no one had shown me anything that ticked the boxes. And so I.

Payman Langroudi: Went. Maths [00:06:50] in engineering isn’t it? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Very maths heavy.

Payman Langroudi: It, maths and physics. But it was what I was good at [00:06:55] and that’s why I thought that’s what I was going to do. Yeah. Um and then I picked the [00:07:00] most eclectic bunch of uh, careers to go and listen to. I went to the [00:07:05] RAF, I went to law, I went to something in sports science [00:07:10] and I went to dentistry and a guy called George Lee from Liverpool University. He was [00:07:15] a paediatric consultant. He just he said a few things that made me think, [00:07:20] do you know what that’s that sounds all right. He sort of. He sold the fact that there was a science element. He [00:07:25] sold the fact that, you know, every day is different. He sold the fact that if you [00:07:30] like, if you like people, dentistry is a great job. Um, I think too [00:07:35] many people go into dentistry who don’t like people, I think, I think, and they found that very stressful. [00:07:40] And I remember leaving that, that careers evening, uh, and a load of us bear [00:07:45] in mind, we were lower six. We all went to the pub that night and um, we were chatting [00:07:50] about, you know, what we’d seen, what we’d listened to and people saying, you know, what are you going to do? I said, you know what [00:07:55] I think? I think I might look into dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: And everyone was flabbergasted. People called [00:08:00] me a money grubbing, all sorts. And I actually genuinely didn’t know any dentists [00:08:05] apart from my own, um, didn’t know that there was that legacy, but just [00:08:10] thought it seemed like a good job. Um, my mum walked down to the bottom of [00:08:15] our road and knocked on the the practice door at the bottom and asked if I could [00:08:20] do some work experience. Uh, and I went and did some work experience with two dentists, Clive [00:08:25] Harden and Mike Horwich. So you’ll know from Simply Endo. Yeah, well, he was just a local GDP at [00:08:30] the time really. And I went and spent a couple of days with those guys and just thought, you know what? [00:08:35] That’s it. That to me seems like a really great job. Um, if, [00:08:40] if they’ve not gone to that lecture by George Lee, I’d probably be doing something totally different. [00:08:45]

Payman Langroudi: It’s so funny, isn’t it? The sliding door.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It kind of.

Payman Langroudi: Feels that way, to be honest. I’ve [00:08:50] got a few of those in my career, but that was definitely one of them. Dentistry was not on the table, not [00:08:55] in the family.

Payman Langroudi: Had you gone to a comprehensive school?

Payman Langroudi: It [00:09:00] was a state school, but it was essentially a state grammar school. A bit [00:09:05] a little bit different, but selective entry. But we didn’t it wasn’t private. We didn’t pay to go. Um, [00:09:10] very good school. We did. The school does very well still. Um, [00:09:15] but yeah, just a bit of a strange. It was far from a comprehensive, equally it wasn’t [00:09:20] privately funded.

Payman Langroudi: But what was going through your head, I mean, being the first person to go to university [00:09:25] in your family. Um, I’ve heard I’ve had other people sitting where you’re sitting telling me they had like a sort [00:09:30] of inferiority complex, thinking of coming from a state school. I suppose this one was quite a quality [00:09:35] state school. It was the you see, sometimes people go [00:09:40] to private school. The. The one big difference You see, it’s like almost false confidence. [00:09:45] Your kids or something.

Payman Langroudi: No, no that’s not that’s not reasonable. I think [00:09:50] you’re right. The school environment I was in was it ran like a grammar school. [00:09:55] There were prefects. There were uniforms all the way through. There were everyone was.

Payman Langroudi: Well behaved and.

Payman Langroudi: Generally. [00:10:00] Yes, you know, as much as possible. Schools have characters. Yeah. Um but there was [00:10:05] a, there was an academic, a real academic push. If you got [00:10:10] through to your A-levels, you were, you were sort of expected to go to university though. So I think I’d sort of [00:10:15] gone through the school thinking, well, if I pass my exams, well, I’ll go from GCSEs [00:10:20] to A-levels over passed my A-levels, I’ll go from A-levels to to university. That just seemed to be natural [00:10:25] progression. The fact that my family had never done that didn’t really mind. Um, [00:10:30] and I think the only difficult bit was really I remember my dad saying to me when I was trying to decide what [00:10:35] to do, I can’t really advise you on anything because we’ve never done it. Um, and he was always [00:10:40] very honest, But I’ve got to be, to be fair, both very supportive.

Payman Langroudi: So how high [00:10:45] had your dad gone in the police?

Payman Langroudi: He was a constable all the way through to retirement.

Payman Langroudi: So reflections [00:10:50] of like the son of a policeman. Like what? What.

Payman Langroudi: Um, I [00:10:55] I’ll tell you what, my wife’s father was also a policeman. He went very senior police officer. [00:11:00] Um, but we, my wife and I both, we’ve talked about this recently. We have a very [00:11:05] strong sense of right and wrong and fairness. And that comes from [00:11:10] a law and order background. Mhm. Um, never really thought about [00:11:15] it too much, but but growing up in Liverpool in the sort of 80s, I suppose [00:11:20] Toxteth.

Payman Langroudi: Riots.

Payman Langroudi: Toxteth riots in the 80s, my dad policed the Toxteth riots.

Payman Langroudi: Did he, did he.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:11:25] and there was a little bit of animosity towards children of policemen amongst [00:11:30] certain people. Even though we were in a fairly middle class school, there were still some people who gave you [00:11:35] a bit of a difficult time about that. Um, deep down I was quite proud of what my dad did. It was, [00:11:40] you know, it was one of those jobs. You could say, well, it’s a right and wrong. Catching the bad guys type thing. [00:11:45] Um, but yeah, it was there were challenges, there’s no doubt about it. A few people made things a bit [00:11:50] difficult at the time.

Payman Langroudi: So you say you’ve got this sort of ethical dimension in your thinking.

Payman Langroudi: I’d [00:11:55] like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: Give me an example. I [00:12:00] mean, a nuanced one, right? Not, not an obvious one. For instance, let’s start. Let’s start [00:12:05] with, you know, what is it to be a professional? You know, in dentistry, there’s plenty of scope, isn’t there, to, [00:12:10] to go off, off piste or, you know, no one’s really [00:12:15] looking over your shoulder. No. So.

Payman Langroudi: Well, do you know you’ve already nailed it there. I’ve [00:12:20] seen this recently and I’ve, I completely agree. Being a professional is doing the right thing [00:12:25] when no one else is watching. And even when that thing that you’re doing may not be to your benefit, [00:12:30] it might be to your financial detriment, but it’s the right thing to do at the time for that [00:12:35] patient that is part of a professional approach to a clinician. [00:12:40] Um, I think there’s also elements of just general behaviour. You know, I think the way you live your [00:12:45] life, the, the way you publicise yourself to the public, [00:12:50] you know, that that upholds hopefully trust in the profession. Um, [00:12:55] and I think there’s elements of that that is being diluted. Um, uh, social media [00:13:00] does that, doesn’t it? I think people.

Payman Langroudi: Are we talking, are you thinking of, uh, private jets [00:13:05] and um, that, that whole.

Payman Langroudi: Not even just that I mean, that reinforces the stereotype [00:13:10] that dentistry is all about finance and money. And whilst for some people, I think it is, I [00:13:15] spend a lot of time, I have a lot of people come and shadow me in the practice, a lot of um, foundation dentists, a lot [00:13:20] of people who are thinking of getting into perio, so many good people in dentistry who really [00:13:25] are just in it for the patient and just want to do the right thing, that I’d love that [00:13:30] to be seen more by the public. And I don’t think it is because we’re in a world of who shouts [00:13:35] the loudest gets the most attention. Um, and I do think that to [00:13:40] a point waters down professional the profession, whether whether we say professionalism. [00:13:45] But I think deep down it’s putting the patient first, doing the right thing. [00:13:50] Um, even like, even like when you said no one’s really over your shoulder at [00:13:55] some point, those things when you’re doing the wrong thing and they’re going to come back and bite you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Or not. Right. [00:14:00] But as you say, as you say, the one of the cornerstones of being a professional is that [00:14:05] I mean, it’s interesting because, you know, there’s, there are benefits to being a professional. [00:14:10] Yeah. Take it down to simple, you know, why, why do they patients come to you [00:14:15] to sign off their passports? Yeah. There’s a, there’s a, there’s an ethical dimension there. They’re not saying, go [00:14:20] to the pizza guy and sign your passport. And so with those benefits come responsibilities. [00:14:25] And I think the number one one in dentistry is that question of trust and [00:14:30] the privilege of the patient privilege of, of patient allowing you to be their [00:14:35] dentist and taking that seriously. Right. And you’re right, that conversation may not be had [00:14:40] enough on social. I think you mean social social. [00:14:45] Focusing on the wrong things.

Payman Langroudi: I think it is. I think you know that that doing [00:14:50] the right thing for the patient is probably not talked about. It’s not celebrated enough. [00:14:55] I think plenty of people do it.

Payman Langroudi: Um Kelleher and the daughter test [00:15:00] kind of thing was in our day was was a thing wasn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. And I think [00:15:05] I do think those tests still apply. Um, I genuinely [00:15:10] think, I like to think every night when I go to bed, every patient that see me that day is [00:15:15] better off for having seen me for sure. Genuinely clinically better off. Yes, they’ve [00:15:20] paid and they’ll pay, you know, handsomely for specialist care. But, you know, it’s rare that [00:15:25] we’re doing stuff to people that they don’t benefit from. And there isn’t ultimately an underlying [00:15:30] negative to what we’ve just done. I mean, we all have mistakes. And yeah, I’m sure you might cover those [00:15:35] later on.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll be going into those.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, I think generally I like to, you know, I put my head [00:15:40] on the pillow and think, you know what? Today I’ve helped people, uh, people are better off and haven’t been under my [00:15:45] care. And that’s quite a nice feeling. I don’t ever sit there thinking, oh, that was [00:15:50] a bit dodgy or give them a time again. I wouldn’t do that again. You know, I lie with my head on the pillow [00:15:55] because I’ve got a family and I’m happy to tell patients, no, that I won’t do stuff. You [00:16:00] know, what people want. And what I’m prepared to do is a fine balance. You know, I’ll always do what’s right. And I’ll always try and save [00:16:05] people from themselves, um, and guide them as best possible. Uh, and I [00:16:10] think.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s kind of interesting as well, right? Because, you know, the daughter test, would [00:16:15] you do this treatment on your own daughter? Yeah, yeah. It kind of ignores the consent [00:16:20] part of, of it because, you know, it’s almost like your daughter will do what she’s told by [00:16:25] you. Yeah, yeah. And it depends, man. It depends if your daughter is, uh, whatever [00:16:30] model. And she wants to drill these teeth to put [00:16:35] veneers on them, even though she’s 24. Yeah. You, as the dentist may say, I don’t [00:16:40] think that’s the right idea, but the consent point goes to once [00:16:45] you’ve given the the information to her. Yeah, it’s her decision, not [00:16:50] yours. And you know, that sort of patriarchal thing that that doctors and dentists used to know best. Yeah. [00:16:55] That’s certainly not the case anymore. Right.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s fair as long as the consent [00:17:00] is valid. Yeah. Because we all know you use the word trust [00:17:05] before. I think we all know that you could probably sell any treatment to any patient, whether [00:17:10] it be the right or the wrong treatment, because there is that trust and you can make anything sound good, bad or indifferent. [00:17:15] Yeah. So I think it goes back to validity. Have you really given the pros and the cons and [00:17:20] and that I’m not convinced is done across the board as well as it could be. And I think ultimately, [00:17:25] at the end of the day, we can reserve the right to say to the patient, look, you can have this done, but [00:17:30] I’m not going to be the person who does it. And we do that with our patients. We especially with some of our implant [00:17:35] patients, we. One of the practice policies and people don’t always agree with this is we say to [00:17:40] patients, we don’t put implants into smokers because we get increased failures, increased call [00:17:45] out increased complications. And we we stress you can have implants. Smoking [00:17:50] does not contraindicate you, but we don’t want to accept the additional risk. And we’d ask that you seek a [00:17:55] second opinion or you stop smoking, and then we’ll open up the floodgates [00:18:00] and we’ll do the very best for you. So I think you can still apply the door to test. [00:18:05] And the patient could still choose to have the treatment that you don’t think is right. I think we still reserve [00:18:10] the right not to do it and not have the attitude, well, if someone’s going to do it, I might as well do it. I still [00:18:15] I still like to think that if I don’t think it’s right, I’m actually not going to do it. And I’m [00:18:20] lucky that my chair is always going to be full. In the north west of England. There’s so few periodontists. [00:18:25] Um. I’m drowning in work. I can afford to say to people [00:18:30] this is not a case for me. Um. And walk away from it.

Payman Langroudi: Although when [00:18:35] we think back to that professional discussion, you know, I hear you, I hear you. You’re [00:18:40] saying the motivation isn’t even there. Um, but if you’re a professional, then you’re [00:18:45] not going to do that wrong thing anyway. But but but let’s, let’s move on.

Payman Langroudi: No [00:18:50] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Tell me, how many years did you practice as a generalist? [00:18:55]

Payman Langroudi: I did about seven years as an NHS GDP. [00:19:00] Um, in that time I had started [00:19:05] teaching a day a week at Liverpool. Initially, I just got [00:19:10] a job in the sort of A&E department sort of doing any old. I just wanted to be around the [00:19:15] academic institution really and get involved. So that wasn’t actually a teaching role. And [00:19:20] then the job came up. Um, and I didn’t want to be a periodontist, I. I [00:19:25] got this.

Payman Langroudi: Off the most sexy sounding.

Payman Langroudi: But true story this. I was on the clinic. [00:19:30] Um, I was, I was consenting somebody for an extraction on the A.D department [00:19:35] and a lady came in lady called Eileen Thiel. Uh, I had never met this lady before. [00:19:40] And she walked in and she said to me, are you Ian Dunn? And I said, yes. And she said, come upstairs and [00:19:45] see me. I need to speak to you. And when she walked out, I said to my nurse, who’s that? And they said, oh, [00:19:50] Eileen Thiel, what have you done wrong? Because she had this reputation for, you know, she was one of gay [00:19:55] people, a bit of a rollicking. Um, anyway, went upstairs, spoke to her and she said, oh, you know, your name [00:20:00] has been put forward as someone who’s a good guy. Keen. Um, we’ve got an opportunity for teaching. [00:20:05] And I thought, fantastic, let’s hope it’s something sexy like endo or crown and bridge [00:20:10] or um, and she said, it’s perio. And I thought, oh God. Right. Okay. And, [00:20:15] but I thought, right, I mean, because I needed to get off the ground floor at Liverpool ground floor was like the, [00:20:20] the workhorse department upstairs was teaching. I thought, just get upstairs, get this job. [00:20:25] They’ll realise I’m a good guy. They’ll give me one of the more sexy jobs. Let’s just take the job. Take the job. [00:20:30] And and that. That was the beginning of my career. Uh, there’s [00:20:35] more to that.

Payman Langroudi: But that opportunity was there, so it wasn’t initially a period job. But you asked [00:20:40] about general dentist about 7 to 8 years as a GDP Udas [00:20:45] were coming, and I wasn’t a high grossing dentist at all. Um, [00:20:50] there’s probably a story behind that, I suppose, but it wasn’t particularly high grossing dentist. Um, and [00:20:55] so I moved towards the private sector and ran [00:21:00] that alongside my one day a week. Uh, but, but I was building perio interest. I was [00:21:05] actually focusing my postgrad on perio at this point. Um, but I was very much a general dentist probably, [00:21:10] well, 2008, ten years, at least ten years doing [00:21:15] a significant chunk of general dentistry, which is, I think, again, very different [00:21:20] to modern young specialists. Uh, you know, I do think [00:21:25] one of the things that comes across when I lecture is I’ve walked a mile in most people’s shoes. [00:21:30] Um, I have done NHS, I have worked in fairly grotty, [00:21:35] you know, fully exempt type practices. I’ve done the whole shebang. [00:21:40] Um, and I think when I then teach, I’m not coming from that ivory [00:21:45] tower, sort of never seen it, never done it. Uh, and I, and I’m told that [00:21:50] comes across so, but yeah, a long time as a GDP and I’ve never lost those GDP skills. I’ve got [00:21:55] about 40 patients who followed me over the years. As far as they’re concerned, I’m their general dentist. [00:22:00] Still see them.

Payman Langroudi: And do you still teach in the hospital?

Payman Langroudi: No, I left in 2018.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:22:05] my question is, if in 2018 you were teaching and you saw a fourth [00:22:10] year student who was taking a particular interest in perio, and [00:22:15] they said, look, Ian, a love perio, Would your advice be still, [00:22:20] go out and do general first before focusing [00:22:25] in.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, not not even just perio. I my view is that [00:22:30] for you to be an all rounded specialist within the restorative specialities, I [00:22:35] think you’ve got to have a broad overview of how.

Payman Langroudi: Would you not get that in perio training. [00:22:40] Do they not. So I mean there must be like restorative training in period training. Right.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:22:45] do. I mean I’ve never done that mono speciality training route. And mine was a bit back to front [00:22:50] and made up as we go along a little bit. Um and I do think they, [00:22:55] you know, I listened to a couple of your podcasts, listen to Payman Minhaj. He was a Liverpool graduate from [00:23:00] when I was there.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, you know her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I do.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, she mentioned you.

Payman Langroudi: She’s she’s going to go on and do great things. [00:23:05] Uh, she.

Payman Langroudi: Loves gums, man.

Payman Langroudi: We all love gums.

Payman Langroudi: Periodontists do love your job. [00:23:10]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of its own that we love it that much. Um, but [00:23:15] yeah, she talked about working with the people and she, you know, and I think that’s [00:23:20] there. But working in a busy general practice environment, the diagnostic skills [00:23:25] that you get from seeing the aches, the pains, the toothaches, the decision making that [00:23:30] I still use that every single day. Um, and, and I’m [00:23:35] not convinced it’s as hard wired if you’ve just done the very pure mono [00:23:40] spec programs. Don’t get me wrong, it can be everything can be learned, everything can be developed, but I do. I [00:23:45] would love to see people go into speciality training just that little bit later. It’s all [00:23:50] a bit.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of the British way of looking at it though. Like our friends across the pond, they kind [00:23:55] of go very quickly sometimes into specialist training. And do you see that as like maybe [00:24:00] potential blind spots that they’re getting into?

Payman Langroudi: I think I go back [00:24:05] to having walked a mile in someone’s shoes.

Payman Langroudi: And referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Shoes Referrers.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching, [00:24:10] I get.

Payman Langroudi: It’s understanding the difficulties that you refer as a facing. It’s [00:24:15] understanding that they often. Especially if you’re working in NHS practices, you’re [00:24:20] often having to work within the compromise that the systems puts on you. And actually having been there [00:24:25] and done it, you understand it, and you probably just a little bit more forgiving and tolerant [00:24:30] of what you see when other people may not be quite as, as, uh, open [00:24:35] minded about it. You know, I think if you go through that only having done everything perfect forever, [00:24:40] then it becomes a bit, well, there’s only one way to do things and that’s the right way and perfection. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so you made the decision once you’d gotten a bit more exposed to, [00:24:50] you know, you’re going to, I guess, sacrifice to get [00:24:55] the training. Yeah. I mean, what was, what was your period training in the end?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:25:00] the Liverpool job was purely floor walking supervised and general dentistry. [00:25:05] Uh, the students on the perio clinic. Yeah. But I, I [00:25:10] went away because So because I had got this period job, [00:25:15] I was four years qualified. I’d done loads of courses, I’d done everything occlusion, I’d [00:25:20] done endo, I’d done crown and bridge. Had I done any perio? No, because we had a hygienist [00:25:25] and they did that and that, you know, that was NHS, that was our practice. And so [00:25:30] I thought, God, I better do some proper, I better get up to speed if I’m going to be on the clinics. And [00:25:35] so I went on a course and we can talk about that later, um, [00:25:40] to get myself up to speed. And then what I found was because I was around perio and I was teaching [00:25:45] it just only basic, you know, non-surgical therapy on the clinic. [00:25:50] And because I’d been on this course, it was a four day course. And then I’d then gone back into my [00:25:55] own practice and I was just thinking about Peri a bit more. I was then starting to get better results. [00:26:00] People in my practice were starting in the NHS saying, we’ve seen some of your patients, [00:26:05] you’re getting really good outcomes. Can we send you some of our patients? And this was this [00:26:10] was, you know, this was just brilliant because people were starting to realise I was a bit bit better than others [00:26:15] at that. Some this one, this one thing. And I just thought, you know what, in going [00:26:20] back to the northwest in back, back in the early 2000, [00:26:25] we had one periodontist in the north west of England, Philip Green in Manchester. [00:26:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s crazy isn’t it. Wasn’t that long ago.

Payman Langroudi: Mental. Um and he had a fabulous [00:26:35] reputation. He was very helpful once I put my head above the radar. Um and, [00:26:40] but Philip was the only guy. Um and Scousers don’t like going to Manchester, [00:26:45] so they, you know, they didn’t want to be referred. And I just, I saw it as, do you know what, I [00:26:50] like this and I’m good at it. And there’s an opportunity here. I then became a complete nuisance [00:26:55] to the perio staff at the hospital. I just spent every spare minute, you [00:27:00] know. Can I have my lunch with you? Can I talk to you about this? Can I watch a case that you’re doing? And [00:27:05] then again, another one of those sliding door moments. Uh, Callum Johnson moved from Leeds to Liverpool [00:27:10] as head of restorative, and he basically got rid of the mono spec [00:27:15] clinics because everything was taught individually, period, pros, cons and he [00:27:20] made everything restorative. So all the GDPs who were teaching perio were [00:27:25] moved to restorative. And Eileen Thiel, the lady I mentioned before, she [00:27:30] said, I want to keep one general dentist, uh, in the perio team. We need one extra body. [00:27:35] And so she approached me and said, look, you, you’re clearly into this. Now, [00:27:40] do you want to come on part of the team? So it’s like, great. So now now I’m starting to do actual lectures [00:27:45] and I’m running tutorials.

Payman Langroudi: But still part time, right? Still part time, still [00:27:50] GDP.

Payman Langroudi: Gdp. Well, yeah, I haven’t even started my master’s at this point. Um, [00:27:55] but they sort of spoon fed me, they gave me some very basic stuff, [00:28:00] some very, they gave me presentations to learn and deliver. Um, and then [00:28:05] ultimately, slowly but surely made those things my own. Um, but again, goes [00:28:10] back to what we were talking about before the podcast about being in the right place at the right time. But then what was coming was [00:28:15] that there were basically two people in that Perry department, plus me, and one of them was heading to retirement, [00:28:20] and they needed someone to be able to do some of the perio [00:28:25] surgery in the hospital. So because I was part of the team, they then trained [00:28:30] me up in the hospital to do perio surgery. And it was literally I would nurse for one of [00:28:35] the periodontists and watch a procedure. And then the second the next procedure that same morning, [00:28:40] they’d nurse and I’d do the procedure. It was like, see one, do one, teach one almost. [00:28:45] Um, and we, we did that 2 or 3 weeks on the road, the same procedure, [00:28:50] the same type of treatment. And then they’d let me loose to go and do that basic [00:28:55] type of treatment. And once my hands were working better, they then say, right, you’re now ready to do some sort [00:29:00] of soft tissue grafting and we’ll show you that. And we did the.

Payman Langroudi: So the type of surgery you were doing [00:29:05] back then. I remember you kind of. If non-surgical wasn’t [00:29:10] working, then you’d say, oh, now let’s do it surgically. As far as Débridement and all of [00:29:15] that, that was the kind of work. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Basic sort of pocket reduction type surgery. [00:29:20] You know, old school, modified widman flap type stuff that, you know. But yeah, simple, relatively [00:29:25] simple, but very effective at the time, you know, treatment.

Payman Langroudi: But fast forward is that [00:29:30] today no longer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we still I think we do a lot less surgery than we did probably 20 years ago. [00:29:35]

Payman Langroudi: Well, so what’s changed our understanding of like the patients we.

Payman Langroudi: Know how well non-surgical [00:29:40] therapy works. I think we also understand our clinical end points a bit [00:29:45] better that, you know, we used to be sort of terrified of leaving a pocket over three millimetres, [00:29:50] four millimetres. And now, you know, the BSP has come out with statements that pockets over, [00:29:55] you know, five, even maybe six millimetres that don’t bleed may not be active. And we [00:30:00] can, you know, actively monitor those cases. I think also when we do do surgery, we [00:30:05] probably do a bit more regenerative stuff. We’re trying to build build back rather than just resect. [00:30:10] So I think the surgery’s moved forwards and I think we’re also a lot less it’s a lot less [00:30:15] surgically aggressive.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s more minimally invasive.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think so.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re working more towards reattachment. [00:30:20] Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Reattachment. And where we can rebuilding of the periodontal apparatus, [00:30:25] the the bone, the periodontal ligament with the regenerative techniques. But that’s there are limitations [00:30:30] with that. Um, but, but that’s developing all the time. It’s exciting where that [00:30:35] can go. But that was my hospital background. I was essentially then working as a staff grade, uh, [00:30:40] one day a week and I was still in NHS GDP, but it was off the [00:30:45] back of that, that I then realised I, I could do it, but I didn’t actually know the literature. [00:30:50] I didn’t know why I was doing the stuff sometimes. And that’s when I went off and thought, [00:30:55] right, I need to go and do a master’s now. And, and that’s, that’s what I did. And so my.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, part [00:31:00] time.

Payman Langroudi: For four year.

Payman Langroudi: For three years with it wasn’t the full sort of [00:31:05] M Clin dent down here. I went up to. Yeah, yeah. Because I was, I was I had the clinical [00:31:10] components. I was doing that sort of over the shoulder stuff for about four years or [00:31:15] more really. Um, and eventually running my own list in the hospital being referred [00:31:20] stuff from the consultants, the sort of the prosthodontists and the endodontists to do surgical [00:31:25] perio. Um, and so I had all of that sort of over the [00:31:30] shoulder hospital training, but I just needed the academic component to fill in the gaps. And that even [00:31:35] that was for my own benefit really, because I was doing the job and I was good at it, but [00:31:40] I just felt the need to almost validate myself academically and just.

Payman Langroudi: And so was it worth it [00:31:45] in terms of do you think it was it was just an itch you had to scratch or did you actually learn [00:31:50] a lot?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I just I loved every minute of it. Did [00:31:55] you. Yeah, I was.

Payman Langroudi: Just deep dive into it.

Payman Langroudi: I decided that I love Perrier [00:32:00] and just.

Payman Langroudi: Wanted as much as.

Payman Langroudi: Possible. So it was like, tell me as much as you can. Tell me. Tell me why we [00:32:05] know this and tell me, tell me about all the classic studies and tell, you know, we I was lucky at the [00:32:10] time to be taught by um, Jose Zurdo and Cristina Romano, husband and wife team from based [00:32:15] up in the Midlands at the Carisbrook. Um, and they were, they’d been trained in Gothenburg by Jan [00:32:20] Lindhe and all like the perio gods. So I just loved every minute of spending time [00:32:25] in their company. They’re still good friends. Um, I was going back to the university [00:32:30] with all this new knowledge and annoying the periodontist there with just my enthusiasm. [00:32:35] Um, but yeah, I got, I got loads out of it. Did it make me better?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, [00:32:40] which aspect of perio at that point turned you on because you couldn’t go deep [00:32:45] into the whole autoimmune cellular level? No perio. Or you can obviously [00:32:50] go into the surgical side. You can go.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s be honest, as a youngster, you just love to do surgery, don’t [00:32:55] you? You just.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, is that it?

Payman Langroudi: You know, it was that sort of, I can do something that other people can’t do and [00:33:00] I can I can take something. You know, it. You felt different. You there was an element of [00:33:05] this is exciting. You know, surgery is exciting. I think one of the one of the running jokes, often [00:33:10] in specialist training is they can teach you surgery in three months, but it then takes three years to teach you when [00:33:15] not to do it. Um, and that’s one of the things as you, as personally as I think, [00:33:20] as we get older and more experienced, I’m less surgically aggressive than I used to [00:33:25] be. Um, just again, comes with experience and it comes from complications. [00:33:30] It comes from all sorts.

Payman Langroudi: And much less predictable than hard tissue work, [00:33:35] isn’t it? I mean, in so much, as you know, you put the gum back on that day, it looks [00:33:40] completely wrong. And then you have to sort of do it correctly so it matures into [00:33:45] the correct situation.

Payman Langroudi: I think that’s very fair. And I think you [00:33:50] ask any of the implant guys who, you know, drill holes in bone, they once [00:33:55] they’ve got that skill, they. They know that’s not the skill. It’s the manipulation. Manipulation of the soft [00:34:00] tissues, the making, the making the implant look like a tooth. And not just a not just a [00:34:05] screw in bone. Um, and you look at, you know, the guys who [00:34:10] are very, very good at their implant and their soft, their plastic surgery [00:34:15] is, is as good as anyone in the country, if not the world. Um, so yeah, it’s soft tissue [00:34:20] is very, everything heals eventually, but it can also be very unforgiving. And you know, [00:34:25] when you, when you cut something hard, like a tooth or bone tends to do as it’s told. Yeah. [00:34:30] And soft tissue, you’ve got to really know how to handle Palmer.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He, he’s now going [00:34:35] quite deep into plastic surgery. And he was telling me that the rate of improvement [00:34:40] is so much slower than composite. Yeah. Because it’s so unpredictable. [00:34:45] It is, it is.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting that he’s going into that. I always say deep down everyone loves [00:34:50] Perrier. They just don’t know it yet. It’s a sign of maturity when you realise that perio is everything. [00:34:55] But, um. So tell him. Well done. It’s not too late.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know, [00:35:00] he’s super interested in it. He’s even got a periodontist. Well, someone with a special interest work in the practice, but. [00:35:05] So I said to her, why are you bothering with this guy? Could do it. And he said, it’s just super interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But then do [00:35:10] you know what? That it doesn’t matter what. When you find something you love, you [00:35:15] just want to dive into it as much as you can, don’t you? And I see that with, you know, I work with a couple of really good endo nerds [00:35:20] and, and they’re brilliant and they, they just love every aspect. I couldn’t wait to stop doing [00:35:25] endo.

Payman Langroudi: But do you think my thesis is wrong? You must have heard my. I’ve said it so many times. The notion of you [00:35:30] love whatever you’re good at.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really. There isn’t. There [00:35:35] isn’t a thing in your brain that makes you more loving of gums than endo. [00:35:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think there’s. Oh, well. But then I would also say, I would argue that different [00:35:45] personalities are going to be good at different things, because perio has a huge chunk of psychology [00:35:50] and, and patient behaviour and communication, whereas [00:35:55] endo rubber dam on don’t speak to me just, you know, no disrespect to my endo friends [00:36:00] by the way. That’s true. But you know, it’s it’s a bit more, although when I say surgical, [00:36:05] it’s a bit more, I’m going to do this to you and it’s going to be fine perio, [00:36:10] the psychology and the behaviour of the patients and that that winning [00:36:15] them round and getting them on board, that is something I love that I don’t know that I’d get from [00:36:20] Endo. So I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: More to it than that question, she said. By the time they get to me, behaviour [00:36:25] change has already been sorted. Is that not correct?

Payman Langroudi: We get a self-selecting [00:36:30] group of patients, but then we also get a group of patients who, um, [00:36:35] think they can throw money at a problem and don’t have to change their behaviour. Yeah. I mean, I’ve [00:36:40] treated people who high up in the Sunday Times rich list who just think they can just throw money [00:36:45] at me and make I’ll make everything go away. But their lifestyle is chaos. Mhm. Um. [00:36:50] It’s, you know, there is a huge amount of psychology and kid [00:36:55] ology, but you are right. We have as a, as a specialist, you, you’re, [00:37:00] you’re consult fee and even just travelling to see someone is a, is a [00:37:05] barrier. And so when a patient chooses to go over that obstacle, [00:37:10] you’ve already got a self-selecting patient. You’re already halfway there. So I don’t think that’s unreasonable. [00:37:15]

Payman Langroudi: And some periodontists then kind of move very seamlessly into [00:37:20] implants. You’re one of them, right?

Payman Langroudi: No, not oh well, I did, I dabbled. [00:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: Oh you didn’t really.

Payman Langroudi: Did not love it. Oh, really didn’t excite me as much as the perio excited [00:37:30] me. Um, why do you know? I don’t know, because the surgery [00:37:35] is is not dissimilar. Yeah. Um, I, I honestly, um, [00:37:40] Payman I can’t can’t put my finger on it, but I didn’t love it. I didn’t hate [00:37:45] it. Uh, but I did have to make a decision because again, and this has come up on a few [00:37:50] of the podcasts I’ve listened to of yours, you do have to go all in with that stuff. Yeah. The days [00:37:55] of dabbling in implants have gone, you know, placing a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive field now, [00:38:00] isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It huge? It’s a speciality on its own. And everyone accepts that, even though it’s not a specialist list thing. Um, [00:38:05] we all know who the people who are fully invested in it are. Um, [00:38:10] and for me, there was a decision. Do I go all in and, or do I not? And [00:38:15] I worked in a, I work still in a practice now with a guy called Paul Swanson who big [00:38:20] implant placer. He was part of the FDP diploma and he just did it better than [00:38:25] me. They were. When I restored his implants, they restored them my own. My [00:38:30] hourly rate would drop when I did implant work because it wasn’t something I was doing all [00:38:35] the time. And my rate.

Payman Langroudi: Was. Is there something about, uh, the disposition [00:38:40] of an implant surgeon is more like an orthopaedic surgeon. Sort of. Get [00:38:45] in there. And the disposition of a surgeon is more like what? Like a vascular [00:38:50] surgeon. Like, what would you say?

Payman Langroudi: I think you know what I’m. I’m going to annoy [00:38:55] lots of my my my implant colleagues and friends because a lot of them are very plastic aware. [00:39:00] Um, but there is I mean, Paul wouldn’t wouldn’t criticise me for [00:39:05] saying it. Paul Swanson is all about the surgery, loves it, loves the the, the [00:39:10] stress that goes with it, the complex, the complexity of the cases and is happy to have [00:39:15] all of the restorative work done by somebody else. And and he’s, he’s in doing bits of plastics, [00:39:20] but other stuff he’ll send to me to do. Um, but [00:39:25] I think there is, there is definitely a cohort of almost orthopaedic style implant guys [00:39:30] with perio plastic skills without any shadow of a doubt.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, still not many women going [00:39:35] into Implantology.

Payman Langroudi: No, I do, I think the a D are doing well on that though. I think they [00:39:40] really are pushing it. You look at a few people over the last few years that we’ve had female ID presidents [00:39:45] and and I think they are very conscious of that and looking to support women [00:39:50] in Implantology. Again, that you ask yourself, why is it a testosterone [00:39:55] thing where it’s very male driven? Is it that because of that all or nothing nature [00:40:00] and family commitments, that it’s not something that people go into? I don’t know, but certainly [00:40:05] in the northwest we’ve got some very, very good. Shahzad Jeffreys, a superb Implantologist [00:40:10] who works in the northwest. She was mentored by Paul in our practice.

Payman Langroudi: I come across much more nowadays, [00:40:15] but still it’s it’s interesting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a male dominated, male dominated. [00:40:20]

Payman Langroudi: Whereas Peri, I don’t think is or.

Payman Langroudi: No, I don’t think. I think historically dentistry was probably [00:40:25] male dominated, but that those days have been long gone. Yeah. Um and I think perio [00:40:30] probably yeah, we definitely, I can think about the, the cohort that’s just graduated from [00:40:35] King’s, I think in, in fact, I think they were all female. I think I may [00:40:40] be wrong in that, so I apologise if I’ve ostracised somebody. But yeah, the very [00:40:45] female heavy cohort. So, um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to you a bit of [00:40:50] Peru.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: I know we were talking about, but but clinically I stopped practising years [00:40:55] ago, 2012, and I stopped learning about perio after [00:41:00] my house job. So years ago, what’s changed? I mean, the you [00:41:05] said you alluded to the more minimally invasive approach. Um, people [00:41:10] talk about things like laser perio, bony infill that [00:41:15] we used to think that was impossible before. Is it still a little, um, what’s, what’s, [00:41:20] what’s, what’s new other than classifications? Because you guys.

Payman Langroudi: We’re going to change [00:41:25] that next.

Payman Langroudi: Week. Like you guys like changing classification.

Payman Langroudi: Because we need something new. [00:41:30] Yeah. Um what’s changed. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you know, the mouth body connection [00:41:35] thing were you, are you guys fully onto that? Yeah. Because because it’s not taught very well in undergrad. [00:41:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think we’ve been on that for at least probably 20 years.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s not really taught very well in undergrad, is [00:41:45] it? In undergrad, you’ve got this patient in front of you who’s got gum disease. You don’t you got to take a medical history. [00:41:50] If there’s diabetes in there, you kind of think, well, maybe that’s affecting. It is affecting [00:41:55] things, but not really making a connection in undergrad. So in [00:42:00] postgrad.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s I think it’s the awareness is significantly better, I think. You know, we’ve got so many [00:42:05] consensus groups where you’ve got organisations like the BSP or the EFP [00:42:10] working with endocrinology and cardiology and producing consensus reports. I think I think [00:42:15] it’s better. And that will filter down much better than it did when you and I were at university, because it wasn’t really [00:42:20] a thing then. It was. And you know, it’s a cheesy sentence, [00:42:25] isn’t it? But for too long, dentistry and the mouth has been outside of medicine, [00:42:30] outside of the body. And it’s mental to think that they’re not connected. Um, [00:42:35] and we’ve, you know, we’ve known since you and I were undergrads about the diabetes link, but we’ve now [00:42:40] got all of the arthritis links the Alzheimer’s, cardiovascular, [00:42:45] kidney disease. Lots of associations and, you know, very [00:42:50] plausible linkages. So I think it’s important. I’ve got to be honest, I don’t [00:42:55] I don’t labour that with patients. I don’t like to scaremonger patients with that because I always just think you’re treating period [00:43:00] to save your teeth. And as an adjunctive benefit is that your systemic health will be better. [00:43:05] But I don’t I try not to sort of go down the floss or die route with my patients. [00:43:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I get it, I get it, but but but the notion that you’ve now suddenly got a period [00:43:15] of period breakdown, is there something going on systemically that [00:43:20] we don’t know about? Yeah. Like like a period referral to a GDP, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Gmp [00:43:25] that’s not happening. And the, the, I think the medical awareness is [00:43:30] bad. I think we as a profession are reasonably good at knowing about this stuff. I [00:43:35] had a, a diabetic specialist nurse referred to me for perio treatment, [00:43:40] and I didn’t know she was a diabetic specialist nurse. And we talked about the major risk factors [00:43:45] smoking, unstable diabetes, stress. Um, and she said diabetes. [00:43:50] What? What do you mean? No way. I was like, you’re. And then so when I told her, she was like, where [00:43:55] have you read that? And I said, I said, why are you asking that?

Payman Langroudi: She said recently, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: In the last, [00:44:00] uh, the other side of Christmas. And she said, where have you read that? I said, well, [00:44:05] we’ve known about it for 30, 40 years. We’ve got international consensus. [00:44:10] Why? I said, why are you asking that? She said, well, I’m a diabetic nurse. I’ve never heard of it. Wow. [00:44:15] That’s a massive problem.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an interesting thing. I mean, as a profession, we didn’t get through [00:44:20] to the public that the frequency of sugar. Yeah. It’s [00:44:25] interesting. We never got that through. But everyone knows sugar. Yeah, but no one knows that frequency [00:44:30] of sugar. Yeah. But this bit of information. My goodness me.

Payman Langroudi: It’s frightening.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:44:35] really it really bad. It is. It’s pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, to be fair to people like Ian [00:44:40] Chappell, he’s written articles in editorials in The Lancet to try and make [00:44:45] people aware. We’ve had a few initiatives as part. I’m part of the British society. Um, [00:44:50] we’ve had a few initiatives where we try and push and. But you, [00:44:55] you know, your GP is so busy. Diabetes [00:45:00] is one disease that they have to look for. You can’t expect them to be on top of everything, especially what they [00:45:05] would see as maybe a, a nuanced small area. But we know it’s huge. We know, [00:45:10] you know, we know that if you stabilise perio, it’s the it’s the equivalent of the patient having one [00:45:15] additional drug. Wow. That’s the power of stabilising perio. So when you explain [00:45:20] that to a GP and they think, well, blimey, actually, you know, think about the cost impact on the health service [00:45:25] of that additional drug, not to mention the complexities of polypharmacy of multiple medications [00:45:30] just by switching off their perio inflammation. It’s like them having another [00:45:35] drug, not only, but you’ve also switched off other inflammation elsewhere. Um, we do [00:45:40] need to do a better job of educating other professions. Um, but we’re working on [00:45:45] it a bit slow. And like I say, they have other things that where everyone wants a slice of them and it’s [00:45:50] difficult. It’s difficult for a general dentist to stay on top of all aspects of everything. So the same [00:45:55] goes for our GPS, of course.

Payman Langroudi: What else? What else has changed? I mean, you must have had [00:46:00] in your career things come and go. I remember when I was a young dentist putting [00:46:05] putting little antibiotic. What was that called? Periochip.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Periochip. And putting dentomycin. [00:46:10] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Dentomycin. Yeah, I used to charge extra for that. It was like a, it was like a money maker for me. [00:46:15] I was like, oh, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Um.

Payman Langroudi: That’s definitely changed.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff [00:46:20] is just stuff. Stuff comes along that claims to solve everything and then not much of it [00:46:25] does. I worry though, yeah, that let’s imagine I come up with a breakthrough. Yeah, [00:46:30] it’d be 30 years before I convinced Periodontists. [00:46:35] Because you guys are so fully like like like think that no, [00:46:40] it’s all the same problem and you’ve been lied to so many times, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s [00:46:45] fair. I think, um, I mean, you ask what’s changed? Yeah. [00:46:50] The you just the example you gave of the local delivery systems [00:46:55] that went with the thinking at the time of how we understood the disease worked so late, late, [00:47:00] early, late 80s, early 90s, all the socransky stuff. Um, and so we were [00:47:05] almost treating it like an infection and the periopathogens. So that’s where all the antibiotics [00:47:10] came from. Um, and then we realised that actually not, that’s not quite specifically [00:47:15] how these things work. And so I think our treatments develop as we in [00:47:20] every medical speciality, as we understand more, we are definitely less chemically [00:47:25] driven than we used to be. Antibiotics, antiseptics.

Payman Langroudi: Is it not a role for systemic antibiotics. [00:47:30] In some situations.

Payman Langroudi: There is without any.

Payman Langroudi: Situation.

Payman Langroudi: Young patients with what you [00:47:35] and I would have called aggressive periodontitis. That is certainly an indication. There are some more [00:47:40] controversial indications. Um some people will advocate using them in [00:47:45] long standing non-responding chronic periodontitis. I’m using [00:47:50] old definitions now, but some people.

Payman Langroudi: Did it for me.

Payman Langroudi: I’m here for you, [00:47:55] Payman. Um, no, but we sort of. That’s quite controversial [00:48:00] whether you use them or not. Uh, I think certainly in general practice, the BSP have been very clear. If you’re thinking [00:48:05] of writing a prescription for a patient, you should really write a referral. They don’t want prescriptions [00:48:10] written for perio in general practice because it’s inappropriate. Those patients really need to be managed [00:48:15] at a specialist level. And a lot of the stuff that gets sent to me where it’s suspected they might [00:48:20] need something else, they just need treatment done, done better, or the patient needs to have their bar [00:48:25] raised a bit or there’s something being missed. So we we really do restrict [00:48:30] and limit them. But my I work in a practice where we’re so busy. I’ve got a couple of dentists [00:48:35] with special interests who work with me. So my we triage the patients. [00:48:40] I tend to see most of the youngsters. I tend to see most of the mucogingival, most [00:48:45] of the failing implant stuff. Um, and because my patient base is skewed towards that younger, [00:48:50] more aggressive style periodontitis, I will write prescriptions fairly frequently for [00:48:55] perio. But my my day list is not normal. Um, [00:49:00] so there’s a role, but yeah, it’s still very, very limited. And most people shouldn’t need them to be able to get on top of [00:49:05] their disease. Um, what has changed? Regenerative stuff [00:49:10] is getting more predictable. So growing bone back in vertical bone defects that we’re [00:49:15] still using a lot of the same materials, but how we use them has changed. Um, you know, your end [00:49:20] gains, your bio-oss and bio guides. I think we’re just, we’re more, more, um. [00:49:25]

Payman Langroudi: Refined.

Payman Langroudi: With slicker at using them. We know why things work and when to use which product, when. [00:49:30] Um, I think we’ve talked about plastics that is, that’s [00:49:35] just constantly evolving. And like you said, it’s getting better. You look at the Italians [00:49:40] and probably the Germans who just drive that that world.

Payman Langroudi: Is it driven by cosmetics?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:49:45] plastics very much. That is much less about health.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:49:50] not it’s not like is it predictable that you can reduce sensitivity with plastics or not? Is it not [00:49:55] predictable?

Payman Langroudi: I would hate to sell that as a primary outcome because if I if I do [00:50:00] a root coverage on, let’s say, a tooth that’s got eight millimetres of recession and [00:50:05] I cover seven millimetres of it, that’s a good outcome.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But if that one millimetre [00:50:10] has still got dentine hypersensitivity, I’ve failed. I would, I would never do that. I would never [00:50:15] sell it. And ultimately if your problem is sensitivity. Colgate Pro relief or [00:50:20] you know, some sort of desensitising toothpaste would be my go to. Um. A secondary [00:50:25] benefit of covering up roots is usually that you reduce sensitivity. But I’m always [00:50:30] I do hear people selling it. You’ve got to be so confident you are going to achieve 100%. And [00:50:35] whilst we’d like to think we are, like we’ve already said, soft tissue doesn’t [00:50:40] always do as it’s sold. So, uh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think and when you’re referred [00:50:45] a patient by someone planning to do a big whatever it is, [00:50:50] whether it’s a restorative plan or an implant plan or whatever, that [00:50:55] people, patients don’t seem to sort of understand that the period [00:51:00] like, you know, people think how much is an implant? Yeah. And, and the nuance [00:51:05] of explaining to that patient, like, you know, the implant that looks like a tooth or an implant doesn’t look like a tooth. Is [00:51:10] that something that’s left to you by the referral? Oh, without a doubt. Is that one of your jobs?

Payman Langroudi: I think without a doubt. [00:51:15] And I think one of the hardest things, I think as a general dentist or hygienist therapist [00:51:20] is getting patients to understand why they need to go see the specialist. You know the common. I get asked all [00:51:25] the time. What do I say when a patient says, what are they going to do that you can’t do? Because they just think we’re [00:51:30] just, you know, going to do more of the same, but charge them more. Yeah. Um, sometimes we [00:51:35] are, sometimes we’re going to do more of the same, but do it better or do it differently or elevate the status of the patient. [00:51:40] But I think most of the time it is. But you’re so right. People will pay. People will [00:51:45] pay £900 for a specialist endo because it gets them out of pain. People [00:51:50] will pay £3,000 for an implant because the tooth is no longer there and they want something fixed, but [00:51:55] they’ve got a disease that isn’t painful and they don’t perceive there to be a problem. And why should [00:52:00] they pay a few thousand pounds to stabilise my perio? And there is the education phase [00:52:05] of that is huge. Um, I remember listening to again, Philip Green, [00:52:10] I’ve mentioned him already when he was BSP president quite a long time ago now. He [00:52:15] was asked the question, what would you do to make Peri make people take Perrier [00:52:20] more seriously. And his answer was, I’d make it painful. Yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:52:25] a good point.

Payman Langroudi: If if if you know because because it’s inflammation. If Perry was painful, your [00:52:30] patients would be there knocking on the door going, get this sorted. The fact that it’s this silent disease, [00:52:35] they don’t know it’s happening until it’s too late. Um, is a problem. Um, and then, you [00:52:40] know, we’re having to educate them as to why they’ve got to do all this behaviour change, why they’ve got to change their lifestyle, [00:52:45] why we’ve got to do all these treatments. It is, uh, a sales pitch it, [00:52:50] but selling health ultimately. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:52:55] think that the difference between what would you say good periodontist, [00:53:00] great periodontist. What’s the difference?

Payman Langroudi: Um, I think [00:53:05] there’s probably two definitions. There’s there’s great hands and some people are just gifted. [00:53:10] Um, again I’ve mentioned Rob, although he’s not periodontist I would, [00:53:15] he’s got the skills of, of any of the best presidents in the, in the country, if not the world. Um. [00:53:20] I think communication, being able to, you know, [00:53:25] you know, yourself and one of our, one of the challenges of our job is, [00:53:30] is the management of the individual, the dentistry relatively simple, even the complex [00:53:35] stuff when you, when you’re doing it all the time, it’s relatively simple. It’s managing the patient who’s attached to that dentistry. [00:53:40] Um, and so I think communication is just everything because we’re [00:53:45] often sent patients who are quite late presenting and we’re often having to give [00:53:50] difficult news and then talk to them about difficult conversations about where they go next. And so [00:53:55] I would say, and I said it before, you’ve got to like people and you’ve got to be good with [00:54:00] people, and you’ve got to be able to work with all of those personality types. And I [00:54:05] think empathy, empathy, and dentistry full stop, is.

Payman Langroudi: Humanity of that moment, right? When you’re telling someone [00:54:10] he’s got to lose lots of teeth. Yeah, it’s an important point. It’s a funny man with [00:54:15] the enlightened. We talk about or ask people whether they want teeth whitening. [00:54:20] Yeah. And then a lot of them worry about that, right? They don’t want to embarrass their patient. They don’t want to [00:54:25] annoy them. And I tell them, look, do you know how embarrassing it is to be told [00:54:30] you’re not brushing your teeth properly? Yeah. Like by someone younger than you? Yeah. You know, if I, if I [00:54:35] was a I am a 50 year old guy and some 28 year old hygienist says you’re [00:54:40] not brushing your teeth properly. It’s massively embarrassing. Yeah. Massively embarrassing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s also a [00:54:45] barrier to behaviour change. What comes next?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That patient thinks that you think that they’re dirty. [00:54:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s huge.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s it’s such a we’re so in it that we don’t [00:54:55] see that. Right. But it’s a really important nuance.

Payman Langroudi: We talk about that a lot in our [00:55:00] courses. Yeah, we really do.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Because there’s a there’s a really good video [00:55:05] that was put out by the, um, European Federation of Periodontology a few years ago called The Sand [00:55:10] of Periodontitis. And they interviewed three patients. And in the first scene they [00:55:15] talk to a lady called Angela. Um, and they ask her how she felt about her diagnosis and she talked [00:55:20] about, um, she felt ashamed. She felt that she couldn’t talk about it to her friends. [00:55:25] She talks about, um, she could talk about her cancer diagnosis to her friends, but not her diagnosis [00:55:30] because she was embarrassed because it was her fault, because she was dirty. And I, we [00:55:35] play that on every single course that I run to remind people, because we do get into a conveyor [00:55:40] belt of another patient, another disease, another patient, just it’s it’s all day, every day. [00:55:45] Just we’re used to just dealing with this stuff and we process people in and out. And I say to [00:55:50] my delegates, when you diagnose perio, patients are going to have a. Some patients are going [00:55:55] to have a bit of a moment. They’re going to think that you think they’re dirty, they’re going to have a shameful, God, this [00:56:00] is all my fault. And you have to remember that human side of this disease. It’s a [00:56:05] bit different to you’ve got a hole that needs filling. Perio has a bit of stigma attached to it. [00:56:10] And while sometimes that stigma is appropriate because a lot of the time there is lifestyle and [00:56:15] behaviour. There’s also all the other stuff that goes with it, you know, genetics and stress [00:56:20] and, you know, medical conditions. It’s not as simple as you’ve not cleaned your teeth properly. And we have to just, [00:56:25] we have to work with patients to make them understand that and downregulate that shame. It’s really important. [00:56:30] I mean, really important.

Payman Langroudi: One thing that comes to mind is you must be at [00:56:35] the stage you’re at, you must be in touch with the manufacturers, right? The toothpaste [00:56:40] manufacturers, the toothbrush manufacturers, some of the biggest companies in the world. Yeah. [00:56:45] I mean, you know, we think of our biggest companies in dentistry might be align [00:56:50] and Henry Schein, but Colgate and GSK.

Payman Langroudi: And. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Oral-b, they are ten times the size of of those companies. [00:57:00] So those massive budgets and on our screens all the time, there must be an element [00:57:05] of education that needs to happen from them. And it’s a weird thing. Yeah. Because [00:57:10] you know, the guy selling this microphone isn’t. We’re not asking him to educate anyone. Yeah. You know, you might do [00:57:15] if you’re into it, you might say, oh, conversations are important or whatever, but are you I [00:57:20] mean, you’re in touch with these guys, right? You must be.

Payman Langroudi: Do you personally, I work with some [00:57:25] of them in terms of lectures, lecture opportunities. Um, and I think through, through some [00:57:30] of the work I do with the BSP, we work with some of these organisations. Um, I [00:57:35] think, I think we’d like to think that they could do [00:57:40] a bit more. I think some of the companies, what you don’t always see behind the scenes, um, certainly [00:57:45] people like GSK, Haleon. Um. Johnson [00:57:50] and Johnson, they, they support the BSP with sort of like non restricted [00:57:55] grants. So they don’t, they don’t get anything back, but they support the work that we do and the promotion. So that [00:58:00] is a good thing. But they’re relying on us to do the physical promotion there. I think I would love to see [00:58:05] some of these companies do more publicly because you’re [00:58:10] right. You know, the the BSP or Ian Dunn is never going to put an advert in between Coronation [00:58:15] Street and the adverts because it’s just too big a campaign.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, from their perspective, I say, well, [00:58:20] you know, we’re paying millions for those ads, so screw you.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a missed opportunity.

Payman Langroudi: My [00:58:25] friend was playing golf with the CEO of Colgate okay, in the US. And [00:58:30] um, you know what he said? He said um Colgate is in more households [00:58:35] than any other product in the world.

Payman Langroudi: I can believe that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So something like 65% [00:58:40] of all global households have Colgate Palmolive product [00:58:45] in them. And the way he, he was talking to him was, well, you know, like [00:58:50] almost like in a conservative way, they’ve won. So they just want to keep everything the same. Yeah, [00:58:55] yeah, I get that, I get that. But but, you know, if you’ve got access to 65% [00:59:00] of households in the world.

Payman Langroudi: You’d like to think there. [00:59:05]

Payman Langroudi: Should be a.

Payman Langroudi: Big corporate responsibility.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Payman Langroudi: That’s sort of what you’re asking me. Yeah. And [00:59:10] I would like to think that that there was a bit more of that. I think at the end of the day, a [00:59:15] lot of the especially I mean, you’ve mentioned sort of the toothpaste mouthwashes. That’s almost farmer type [00:59:20] stuff. Yeah. And they are in sales. And we have to remember that, don’t we? Yeah. But I do think [00:59:25] I do think they could do more. Um, there’s no two ways about it. I’d love to see them take [00:59:30] a slightly more bigger picture view because I don’t think they’d sell any less product.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. [00:59:35] And the other thing is, I used to think when I used to think about this when I was younger, I used [00:59:40] to think, well, the end of the day it’s just teeth. But then when even today, [00:59:45] today, right now, the biggest cause of GA in children is teeth. It’s [00:59:50] amazing. 2026. That’s the case.

Payman Langroudi: Alder hey and Liverpool spend £1 [00:59:55] million a year on paediatric GA extractions. £1 million [01:00:00] a year.

Payman Langroudi: I thought it’d be more than that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s devastating. That’s probably an eight year old figure.

Payman Langroudi: Actually, it’s probably [01:00:05] more. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And they probably could do it. They probably just can’t get through anymore. Um. It’s huge. [01:00:10] And that’s just one city. You know, that’s going to be that’s going to you multiply that by, you know, your [01:00:15] Manchester’s your Birmingham’s. They’ve all got bigger populations.

Payman Langroudi: In a preventable disease. That’s that’s the key point. Right. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: Key point.

Payman Langroudi: Um what grinds your gears about [01:00:25] dentistry. The market. Let’s let’s let’s start [01:00:30] let’s start before you worry yourself about. No, no. Let’s start with with relation to [01:00:35] in relation to perio. Like what do most generalists not know about perio that they really [01:00:40] should.

Payman Langroudi: I wouldn’t say it’s that they’re not know I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Well not acting [01:00:45] whatever.

Payman Langroudi: What people don’t remember is actually the power [01:00:50] that the patient has to control the disease. I think we’re so ingrained as [01:00:55] a profession that our only value is perceived when we’re physically doing something to the patient.

Payman Langroudi: Treatment. [01:01:00]

Payman Langroudi: I’m either diagnosing or I’m scaling, or I’m drilling or I’m extracting. And when you’re doing [01:01:05] something, that’s my value and I can charge you for that. And I think we forget and [01:01:10] the the S3 period guidelines that came out a few years ago have changed the way we’re [01:01:15] trying to get people to think about this, telling the patient, do more, but physically, properly [01:01:20] sitting with them and educating them on oral hygiene and not just paying lip [01:01:25] service that can produce similar clinical outcomes to you or I do in a clinical [01:01:30] intervention. And if patients, if you’re working in an environment where patients can’t afford expensive care, [01:01:35] educating them to help themselves is the bit that we fail on. We really [01:01:40] do fail on that. Um, I also see with some dentists, [01:01:45] some of my referrers, they don’t always believe in perio that it [01:01:50] actually works. Now, if you believe that, then you’re right, it won’t work. But [01:01:55] I’ve had I had a referral from me a couple of weeks ago, and it was a strange phone call because [01:02:00] he said, I just needed to ring you to see What was it you did that achieved such an amazing result? And [01:02:05] I couldn’t remember the patient. So I had to go open the computer up and have a look and and all [01:02:10] we’d done was we’d actually treated the case from start to finish. Non-surgically. But the case [01:02:15] was a disaster when he walked in.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, is that you physically.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:02:20] depends on the patient. So we I have some great hygienists that I work with. So I, [01:02:25] we do a lot of, um, we give a lot of that to the hygiene team. There [01:02:30] are certain patients when I’m treating youngsters with aggressive disease and I’m prescribing antibiotics, [01:02:35] I will often do that myself. Um we have some patients who will say, you know, I’ve seen a hygienist [01:02:40] before in other practice, I want to see you. Um, and I explain that it will be more cost [01:02:45] effective and equally just as good if they see one of our hygiene team and some people say, no, no, I’m here [01:02:50] now. You’re the guy who I’m putting my trust in. And so they, they pay for me to do that work. And I [01:02:55] don’t I don’t dislike that work. It was interesting. I listen to Payman and she said [01:03:00] she couldn’t wait to get rid of that and just wants to do surgery. But but I also think that also comes with that stage [01:03:05] of career where, you know, I’ve trained to be special. So I want to do special stuff all the time. [01:03:10] I really don’t mind doing the scope of practice that is required for the patient that’s in front of [01:03:15] me.

Payman Langroudi: But the value add of you doing it with the hygienist. Do you think it’s anatomy? [01:03:20] Like literally that’s what it is. You’re literally kind of more aware of [01:03:25] what needs.

Payman Langroudi: I think in terms of non surgical outcomes, the. [01:03:30] There’s two hygienists in our team that do a lot of my work for me because I work [01:03:35] in a mixed practice. As in I say mixed. It’s all private, but it’s general and specialist. So um, [01:03:40] we have quite a big team, 17 surgeries. It’s a beast of a practice. Beast of a. [01:03:45]

Payman Langroudi: What’s that called?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, Rose Lane dental practice. Uh where’s.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Payman Langroudi: Liverpool. Liverpool. South. [01:03:50] Liverpool.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Payman Langroudi: South towards down the airport end. Yeah. Um. Now I know [01:03:55] that if Helen or Yvonne do a case for me that they’ll get the same outcomes [01:04:00] because they think like I do. They treat the same same treatment philosophy. They will. So they’ll get [01:04:05] great outcomes as well. Um, some patients just yeah, the added value [01:04:10] of I’m a bit greyer, I’m a bit older. I’ve got that badge that says I’m a specialist. [01:04:15] I’m charging a bit more for that. Does add value to some patients. Yeah. Um, but [01:04:20] yeah, I don’t mind doing those bits myself, but I think going back to the question you were saying, [01:04:25] we seem to have this thing where our only value is when we physically do something. And [01:04:30] actually in perio and also, I mean, if you boil it down to everything, the prevention [01:04:35] in all dentistry comes down to communication, but we’re not getting paid to do it. So we don’t do it. Um, [01:04:40] that grinds my gears, I suppose a bit because that was the, you know, I [01:04:45] think we could, we could achieve so much more for so less input if [01:04:50] we really did have a true preventative model. Um, it’s one of the [01:04:55] things in dentistry that grind grammar.

Payman Langroudi: School and tell me a few others. You alluded to the social media [01:05:00] thing.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mind social media. We’ve got to accept it’s it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, a [01:05:05] modern beast. It’s how people communicate. I’ve got grown up. I’ve got my, my youngest daughter’s [01:05:10] 19 at the weekend, my eldest, 23. So they’re, they’re in that world. And that’s how they live their lives. So [01:05:15] I understand how we have to operate in there. Um, and I think [01:05:20] social media has been brilliant from a resource point of view for us being connected. Yeah. Uh, [01:05:25] I also think that drives, um, anxiety amongst the profession. They [01:05:30] sort of the, the comparison envy that people think, oh, I’m not, I’m not successful because I’m not, [01:05:35] you know, not that person. I’ve not done that. So I think that, that annoys me because I don’t think a lot of that is real. [01:05:40] Um, I think some of the stuff that I see on social media, you [01:05:45] know, if my principal said to me, look, we’re going to do a TikTok video or we’re going to do some [01:05:50] crazy dancing reception, I’m gone. I’m out of that practice. I’m leaving because [01:05:55] that’s just not for me. Um, and that I just think sometimes is a bit demeaning, but equally, I understand [01:06:00] that that’s the market that some people are appealing to, and that’s not going to be so that what I said [01:06:05] that grinds my gears. Probably not. I just scroll past it and let it wash over me. Um, I [01:06:10] would, you know, I genuinely would love to see CPD better [01:06:15] regulated than it is. Um, I feel like when we qualified, [01:06:20] you would look around the country and you, you knew who the good guys were, you knew who. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: Now there’s so much of it.

Payman Langroudi: There’s just volume. And I’m not convinced [01:06:30] that all of that volume is as good as it could be. Um, you know, I really enjoyed listening to Nick Sethi’s [01:06:35] podcast the other week and what the work that they do. I know Nick through tubules, great [01:06:40] guy, uh, good mates with Riaz. We worked at Liverpool in the hospital together. You know, there [01:06:45] are people who are doing great stuff. I’m down here teaching with monarch for tomorrow, people who are [01:06:50] doing high level really well. Cpd type stuff, but then [01:06:55] I just see some people who just churning out quick fix short but but [01:07:00] dressed up diplomas and I sort of wonder just how much can you learn [01:07:05] in that short space of time? I’ve got no problem with short courses, but don’t dress it up as [01:07:10] anything more than a short course. It’s, you know, a five day course is not a diploma. Um, [01:07:15] and I think the.

Payman Langroudi: Diploma kind of is whatever you want to call it, right. It’s a funny thing. [01:07:20] I think it.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Payman Langroudi: Nowadays. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think there was a time though, you know, when a certificate was [01:07:25] a year course, a diploma was a two year course. Masters was a third year course.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right, that’s right.

Payman Langroudi: And I think so. [01:07:30] It means very different things to different generations. Um and I do [01:07:35] worry that.

Payman Langroudi: But what else? What else should go on. I’ll tell you some of mine. [01:07:40] Um, I don’t like, uh, people who call themselves [01:07:45] professor when, when they’re not, when they’re not professor. I don’t like that. Um, [01:07:50] Because it’s a funny thing. It’s a it’s a foreign university thing. Often, [01:07:55] I think like if you’re, if you’re teaching a university in France, Italy, Spain, or [01:08:00] many places, America, all teachers in university are called. Professor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:08:05] But here it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Associate professor.

Payman Langroudi: The top guy in the department. So [01:08:10] to use it here just seems so, so disingenuous. Yeah. I think that’s that’s not, not [01:08:15] unreasonable.

Payman Langroudi: Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about awards? I bet you don’t like awards. Do you like awards? [01:08:20]

Payman Langroudi: No, I really don’t like awards.

Payman Langroudi: Go on, go on, go on. Articulate what you don’t like. Because the younger [01:08:25] generation can’t even understand it. And I have to. I have to get them to to tell me what they think [01:08:30] it is. What is it for you? The crux of awards that you don’t like?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:08:35] I don’t like the idea that, you know, there can be 7 or 8 best young dentists [01:08:40] this and 12 best old dentists that. And because even [01:08:45] though I’m good at what I do, I’m, I am I the best? How do you measure that [01:08:50] best? And does that best give you an advantage? When do you deserve that advantage? [01:08:55] I just I find that sort of I find it all a little bit crass, not professional.

Payman Langroudi: Right back to [01:09:00] that.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: Professionalism.

Payman Langroudi: That also goes back to me being old. If I’m being, you know, and [01:09:05] just probably, you know, grey old grumpy, um, it’s [01:09:10] just not what we did. And I just find it all.

Payman Langroudi: At the, at [01:09:15] the same time. Do you recognise what I’m saying about like Ken? Ken Finley is a good, good [01:09:20] friend of mine and I remember when they started, it was them, it was, it was FMC that [01:09:25] really pushed all of this awards, uh, top 50 at the time [01:09:30] you had the BJ that wasn’t you weren’t allowed to put a photograph or do you [01:09:35] remember you couldn’t even put any image in a BJ article? Maybe a graph. [01:09:40] Yeah, but nothing else. That’s where we were at. And Ken comes along and [01:09:45] says, well, let me do the sun And it was a good thing, you know, like it opened [01:09:50] up.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise, could we? When we first.

Payman Langroudi: Arrived.

Payman Langroudi: We couldn’t advertise. And then that changed. And that was [01:09:55] the beginning of this opening up of, you know, the marketing and everything that we’ve now got. Um, [01:10:00] I’ve got to be honest, I don’t, I don’t, I would never think less [01:10:05] of somebody who does the awards. And I know people who are part of that industry. And [01:10:10] if you’re going to enter the awards, you are practising to a very high standard because [01:10:15] you have to to be.

Payman Langroudi: Approved to do it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve photographed your work, you’ve shown good [01:10:20] thinking. So, you know, there was elements of that. I think my validation [01:10:25] would come from other places. So you just listen to Nick talk and you [01:10:30] talk about Bard, you know, and you’ve got like Bard accreditation. And you know, if you, [01:10:35] if you’re accredited by Bard, you know, your stuff, you are the bee’s [01:10:40] knees, you know, and even the best people who are going through that process will be stood there [01:10:45] nervous at the front. You know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re Finley Sutton or whether you’re you know, you’re going to be [01:10:50] grilled.

Payman Langroudi: By everyone on it.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re going to be. And and you’ll know your stuff and you’re [01:10:55] going, I’m going to get through this. But that to me is sort of. That’s the sort of validation [01:11:00] I would seek or I want someone to say to, you know, that, you know, someone I respect, like, [01:11:05] I don’t know, like an academic like Ian Chappell or somebody go, yeah, that Ian Dunn’s a good guy. That’s sort [01:11:10] of what I that that to me would be better than any piece of plastic that is voted, you know, that I’ve entered and [01:11:15] been, you know, um, do I think less of people for doing that? No, not at all. I [01:11:20] think if you abuse that and, you know, and actually start to believe that you are [01:11:25] better, that’s probably a bit of an issue.

Payman Langroudi: But I mean, people use it in their marketing, don’t they? So do you find [01:11:30] that distasteful?

Payman Langroudi: Not necessarily distasteful. I think if you’ve done it, it’s like I say, it [01:11:35] shows a commitment to, to, to a high standard because [01:11:40] I’ve yet to see any of those winning cases where I thought, God, that’s rubbish that you are. [01:11:45] You are working at a high level if you’ve won those awards.

Payman Langroudi: So I guess the funny thing, I’m no longer in [01:11:50] it, right? So it doesn’t bother me at all. But I can imagine if [01:11:55] I was working in Liverpool and some dude won [01:12:00] Best Dentist Liverpool. Yeah. And if I was really good at dentistry, by the way, if I was really good at dentistry [01:12:05] and some dude wins best dentist Liverpool and I’ve not even applied, [01:12:10] I can imagine how that might grind my gears. Yeah, I can see it. I can see it. [01:12:15]

Payman Langroudi: I work with, um, I work with a specialist prosthodontist guy called Steve Barber, one [01:12:20] of the best dentists I’ve ever worked with. I mean, his work is just second to none. You’ve never [01:12:25] heard of him because he’s so under the radar. Um, and I see people [01:12:30] winning awards locally and, and yeah, that works okay. It’s good. It’s not as good as Steve’s. It’s [01:12:35] just, you know. And do I feel sorry for him? No, because he’s busy. People who [01:12:40] refer to him know he’s great. There was a time. There was definitely a time. [01:12:45] And you’ll have seen me on social media do it where I was like I was. I felt like the police. I wanted to [01:12:50] argue with everyone. And you’re wrong.

Payman Langroudi: The Facebook.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, social media platforms. [01:12:55] And, you know, and I’m at the point now where I sort of think I can only treat who’s in front [01:13:00] of me. I can only teach who turns up to my courses and I can’t control anything [01:13:05] else. And so why should I bother? And maybe I’m maturing. Maybe I’m getting [01:13:10] more laid back. But you know, I chat to people like you. He’s a good friend of yours, Drew Shah. [01:13:15] I know Drew’s not a fan of that sort of that sort of. Oh, he hates it with [01:13:20] a passion. I think him and I are equally paralleled in grumpiness when it comes to [01:13:25] comes to those things. So um, but yeah, we see we. It [01:13:30] goes back to that comparison envy and the comparison. That same [01:13:35] comparison is a thief of joy. One of my favourite expressions. And I see people who I [01:13:40] mentioned before, people who come and spend days with me and they’re saying to me, you know, I’m [01:13:45] looking after my patients and I care, and I spend too much time on this, and I’m not earning very much money that and [01:13:50] I’m not winning awards and I’m not driving a Ferrari and I’m and I’m saying, yeah, but you’ve just [01:13:55] told me that you’re looking after your patients and you’re doing good work and you’re only three years qualified, relaxed, [01:14:00] just relax. You’re doing all the right things. All that will come if you keep [01:14:05] doing the right thing. I suppose that side of the awards and that I’m [01:14:10] not there and I’m, I’m not successful until I’m that I think people [01:14:15] need to look at how they measure success because success could be you could be going work in community [01:14:20] dentistry on a salary. And you could be treating all that special care type patient group [01:14:25] that that success, if that’s what you love and you’re doing a great service, don’t [01:14:30] measure success in bank balances or cars or, you know, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Success [01:14:35] could be working two days a week and taking the kids to school the other three days, you know, like. [01:14:40]

Payman Langroudi: Spending.

Payman Langroudi: Your life, that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: You’re walking the hills in the Lake District and, you know, having to schlep into work and [01:14:45] do those two days so you can have the five days off. You’ve got to measure, you’ve got to decide what success looks like [01:14:50] for you and not measure it by other people’s yardsticks. It’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:14:55] that said, you’re one of the more kind of famous guys [01:15:00] about between between generalists. [01:15:05] Right?

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: General dentists up north, who can we think of? Who are the guys? [01:15:10] You. I mean, maybe it’s because of teaching. Yeah. Yeah, it probably is because of.

Payman Langroudi: Teaching probably.

Payman Langroudi: Is. Um, and [01:15:15] if you’re going to be a teacher, you’re going to have to tell your story and people need to come and come and come on your course [01:15:20] and all of that. Yeah. Um, do you find that your, it doesn’t come naturally to you [01:15:25] sort of self promotion and whatever it takes to fill these courses, what does it take to fill these [01:15:30] courses? I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s got really difficult. The last few years has become increasingly difficult. [01:15:35] Yeah. I think as as undergraduates, I was chatting to a couple of foundation the other [01:15:40] day and they were saying how many of their lectures were delivered via video, pre-recorded on [01:15:45] demand. So they’re not even understanding the value of face to face teaching at their undergraduate [01:15:50] level. So trying to get them to come on courses and part with money is, is increasingly [01:15:55] difficult. Um, I do find self promotion difficult. I, [01:16:00] my, my former self promotion is just being out there and being available to people. I, [01:16:05] I’ve been on the train coming down here today. I’ve answered five Facebook private messages from people [01:16:10] who don’t know me and I’ve never met them before, not even been on my courses. Hi. Can I ask you a [01:16:15] question? And my answer is always yes. I’ll answer that question when I get a minute. I’ll answer it. And [01:16:20] I always put myself out there on social media platforms as someone who’s knowledgeable and approachable. That’s [01:16:25] my promotion. But I’m not going to stand there going, I’m the biggest. I’m the best, maybe to my detriment. [01:16:30] Um.

Payman Langroudi: One thing I really like about your content or Intensol was um, [01:16:35] the way you the, the way you talk about hygienists [01:16:40] and therapists as a, as equals. Um, and [01:16:45] that’s, I think it’s such an important thing. Yeah. Because, you know, Perry is a team sport. [01:16:50] Yeah. And dentistry’s a team sport.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And too many practices [01:16:55] have too much hierarchy going through them.

Payman Langroudi: The profession has too much hierarchy going through it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:17:00] But practices.

Payman Langroudi: You’re right. You know, you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about practice is, you know, there’s a king of that castle and [01:17:05] then too many the stories you hear from hygienists. Yeah. Because [01:17:10] they’re only like one day here, one day there, they’re not treated as staff members. And I [01:17:15] just remember your the way you write about hygienists and therapists. Yeah. [01:17:20] It’s with a sort of respect that you don’t often see.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:17:25] there’s multiple streams to that though, because, well, I want to believe it, you [01:17:30] know, and there are good dentists and bad dentist. There are good hygienists and bad hygienists and therapists [01:17:35] and you. So and I’ve been lucky enough to work with some great hygienists, um, who’ve [01:17:40] made me look very good. Um, let’s be honest. You they’ve made me [01:17:45] look very, very good. Um, so some patients will come in, see me for a consult, go to one [01:17:50] of the hygiene team, come back to me and I discharge them because they’re fixed and I get [01:17:55] all the glory and they’ve done all the hard work. So it would [01:18:00] be disingenuous of me not to acknowledge that and also not to stand up for that. [01:18:05] Um, you have to look at, you know, most let’s, let’s [01:18:10] just say the, I don’t know whether what’s true about this, but let’s say the average size of practices for [01:18:15] surgeries, let’s say there’ll be three dentist surgeries and one hygienist surgery. And then if [01:18:20] you go to the staff room, the dentist won’t be in there half the time. And the dentists are all together having their butties, [01:18:25] and then the nurses will all be in the staff room and the hygienist is in this no man’s.

Payman Langroudi: Land isolated role. [01:18:30]

Payman Langroudi: Really isolated and that’s where their organisations are really helpful. The best. And [01:18:35] BADT to to give them that that outlet. Um but I think, [01:18:40] you know, with I don’t know whether, you know, I, I’m admin, one of the biggest hygienists and [01:18:45] therapist forums on Facebook for the UK. Um, and it’s just [01:18:50] a release valve for them to know.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m reading the stories.

Payman Langroudi: They’re not that their [01:18:55] experiences are not unique and it’s a bit like dentists for dentists for us, you know, that it’s [01:19:00] somewhere where you can go and speak and know that there’s going to be support, know that you’re not alone. And [01:19:05] so for me, you know, I’ve been very lucky now to get myself into a position where, [01:19:10] as you say, people know who I am. And through my work with the BSP and the [01:19:15] teaching and all the different things, I sort of owe it to them to support them because [01:19:20] that, yeah, there are a lot of Periodontists one, two [01:19:25] dentists don’t want to do perio per se. So three give it to the people who do want [01:19:30] to do it and are pretty good at it. And don’t don’t treat them as a second class citizen. [01:19:35] Um.

Payman Langroudi: Not to mention the way it’s looking. Therapists are going to be a major part of the future. [01:19:40]

Payman Langroudi: Huge. I listened to Amber Alpin’s podcast. Amazing, [01:19:45] brilliant. What a great setup.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: And there’s loads of them in the northwest. We’ve got a handful [01:19:50] of hygiene and therapy owned and LED practices. And why [01:19:55] not? They’re making a great go of it. They’re doing great work. There’s a lady on the [01:20:00] Wirral, Jules Fisher, who runs at the Hygienist Only Centre and is [01:20:05] one of my best referrers. You know, she she takes patients as far as they can and then she knows when to [01:20:10] pass them on. And it’s a great model and the patients get great care. Yeah. Um, we [01:20:15] just, we’ve got to get rid of this protectionism element because there’s, we’re not going to run [01:20:20] out of work.

Payman Langroudi: One of the biggest uses is owned by a nurse ex nurse. [01:20:25] Okay. Um I want to get on to Liverpool because it’s such an [01:20:30] interesting town. Um, again, enlightened biggest users have always [01:20:35] come from Liverpool. From the beginning.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say Liverpool or Kent, I would have thought would be your two big. [01:20:40]

Payman Langroudi: Well no. Essex. You’re thinking. Sorry but no, it’s more Liverpool or Newcastle, more North northwest [01:20:45] or northeast. Newcastle. Sunderland?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The people up there just want white teeth, man. Yeah [01:20:50] yeah yeah. Um but Liverpool as a town, I’ve been going there for years now [01:20:55] and what a change. Yeah. The people are amazing. [01:21:00] Everyone’s a comedian and, and funny and [01:21:05] just, just, just like real salt of the earth. I always think of Liverpool Manchester [01:21:10] as like complete opposites in so much as in Manchester. Everyone looks quite polished. Okay, but you’re not [01:21:15] sure what to think about it. But in Liverpool they’re quite raw. But everyone’s cool. Everyone’s [01:21:20] everyone’s just like, uh, worth talking to. Um, but the change in [01:21:25] that town.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s huge. But you know what? That really makes me feel quite proud that [01:21:30] you’ve just said that. I hear it all the time.

Payman Langroudi: Love that.

Payman Langroudi: City. And there is such a stereotype about [01:21:35] Liverpool that that once people have been, they realise that it’s not what it was, I think. You know, you [01:21:40] mentioned when my dad and the police and Toxteth riots, there is such a stigma and Harry Enfield and the [01:21:45] Scousers and all that, you know, shell suits and trackies and calmed down and all that stuff. There is that stereotype. [01:21:50] Um, Liverpool has had its difficult times. You know, the 80s, [01:21:55] even into the early noughties when I went when I left Liverpool to go to university, Liverpool had [01:22:00] big problems. Um 2008 we got all that capital of culture money [01:22:05] and it absolutely transformed the city. I mean, I was back [01:22:10] living there at the time. I was living in the docks, um, in sort of warehouse living type [01:22:15] stuff. And it was just a great time. But that, that the city transformed and it is [01:22:20] an absolutely fantastic city to live in. And like every city, it’s got issues and [01:22:25] it’s got idiots. But the majority are, like you said, up for a laugh.

Payman Langroudi: The people [01:22:30] are so unique.

Payman Langroudi: Man cannot wait to chat to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I ran a course last week. Uh, [01:22:35] we had 16 hygienists therapists come over for a two day course. Um, [01:22:40] from all over the country and the WhatsApp group the night before, because they were all coming in on the Wednesday night. We were teaching [01:22:45] Thursday and Friday was, oh my God, Liverpool is so friendly. I’ve had so many random conversations. [01:22:50] And my teaching colleague Helen Maria teaching us, we were just texting each other going [01:22:55] makes me feel quite proud about that. It’s good. Yeah, I am born and bred in Liverpool. I’ve [01:23:00] escaped for a bit and moved back and uh, it’s it’s a great place to be.

Payman Langroudi: Great restaurants, [01:23:05] great shopping that Liverpool won the Duke of Westminster project. Yeah, yeah. Liverpool [01:23:10] won like I find really good places there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good culture. We’ve got multiple theatres, [01:23:15] comedy scene, live music.

Payman Langroudi: What I love is that kind of city that’s [01:23:20] big enough that you can go and find yourself a Wagyu steak if you really want one, but small enough [01:23:25] that everyone kind of knows each other kind of bumping into each other. And then with Liverpool [01:23:30] as well, like, you know, it was at one point it was one of the richest cities in Britain, the richest city in Britain. [01:23:35] At one point when the slave trade. Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, it was [01:23:40] built on that.

Payman Langroudi: But those, those massive buildings, not not just the warehouse, the [01:23:45] massive bank like buildings, you know, they’re really special. You don’t get [01:23:50] that in many places.

Payman Langroudi: But we’ve got more royal liver.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Craziness.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got more grade [01:23:55] two listed buildings than any other city outside of London.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Payman Langroudi: Because it was bombed in [01:24:00] the war.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Too far.

Payman Langroudi: So I think it wasn’t deemed to be strategically important. So the architecture [01:24:05] is phenomenal. And if you if you walk around with your head up and look around. Yeah. [01:24:10] You’re right. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s architecturally beautiful in [01:24:15] parts. Um.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of the pod.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about [01:24:20] mistakes. Clinical errors that you’ve made that the rest [01:24:25] of us can learn from.

Payman Langroudi: Um. I [01:24:30] can think, well, maybe whether other people can learn from it, I don’t know. But [01:24:35] arrogant sort of the arrogance of youth. You know, I was, I was doing [01:24:40] my perio surgery stuff and I was generally pretty good at it. And I had a patient [01:24:45] who was referred, I mean, just this, just the horror. It’s more of a is it a mistake? It was a bad [01:24:50] clinical outcome. She came to me with an an upper right central incisor that was root filled [01:24:55] and dark with a little bit of recession on it. And I was asked to cover the root up and also thicken [01:25:00] the tissue so the dark root didn’t show through. Done it a few times, multiple times before at this [01:25:05] point. Um, yeah. No problem. Uh, but the tooth was root filled. It was a protected there was [01:25:10] scar tissue. The surgery was a complete nightmare. I got really good coverage that it [01:25:15] seemed to go okay, but it was difficult. Um, she got really bad healing. She got, [01:25:20] she went from having two meals, a recession to six mils of recession. I’d caused it. My, [01:25:25] my, my healing response was horrendous. Um, she’d gone through two [01:25:30] and a half years of ortho, by the way, to get to that point. And I was the, I was the penultimate bit [01:25:35] before they replaced the crown on this tooth. Um, that was pretty bad. Uh, [01:25:40] what.

Payman Langroudi: Happened?

Payman Langroudi: I just had to, I, I had to own it and I just had to, I redid [01:25:45] it. Um, I can’t say I did anything massively differently and we got a really good outcome the second [01:25:50] time. Um, but it was you then working with the patients who is [01:25:55] doubting you and yeah, there’s a trust issue now. And actually she’s gone from a two mil [01:26:00] recession to a six mil recession on a tooth that is dark. Um, it was a difficult, [01:26:05] difficult period.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the learning outcome from that?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:26:10] what was.

Payman Langroudi: There was an error. What was the era? Was it a communication error? I mean, I suppose.

Payman Langroudi: You did ask [01:26:15] me about it. Could I say there was an error? Maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You said. You said you wouldn’t have done it any differently.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t think I would have [01:26:20] done it any differently. So maybe it wasn’t. Or maybe it was just like we said that sometimes you just don’t get the healing you want. Not [01:26:25] all soft tissue.

Payman Langroudi: Is consent error.

Payman Langroudi: I think thankfully we consent for all sorts [01:26:30] of problems.

Payman Langroudi: Did you tell them that that could have happened? Yeah, possibly.

Payman Langroudi: Graphs can fail. Things can heal [01:26:35] unfavourably. So yeah, I think we always have thorough conversations. So whether that was a dark [01:26:40] time, it was a stressful time because of the I mean, the other thing I would say that.

Payman Langroudi: The patient [01:26:45] didn’t do anything right.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t know patient trusted me. We we’re she [01:26:50] has to wait 3 to 4 months for that site to mature before we can go back in. Walking [01:26:55] around with a front tooth that’s like now got more recession. She was, with [01:27:00] hindsight, incredibly tolerant. Um, and the one thing I would always [01:27:05] say to people, if you’ve got a problem, just own it, be all over it and, you know, smother the patient in [01:27:10] kindness and, um, don’t try and quick fix, don’t try and distance yourself. Don’t you know? [01:27:15] Um, I think the only time to say distance. The only time if you if you can’t [01:27:20] fix it, if you’re not the guy, make sure that they end up in front of the guy or the girl who can [01:27:25] fix it. You know, do whatever it takes to make this right for that patient. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:27:30] give money back straight away, man. I mean, even don’t even ponder on it, although not as easy [01:27:35] as you think. Sometimes you work for a corporate, it has to go up the up the ladder and back down. Um, [01:27:40] what’s, what’s been what, what comes to mind if I ask you what’s been your darkest day [01:27:45] professionally?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the day I got my GDC letter. [01:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: From a patient.

Payman Langroudi: From a. Yeah. So, um, long story [01:27:55] short, I was, I was still a GDP, but only just at this point, I was very [01:28:00] much perio trained and MSC nearly finished. And um.

Payman Langroudi: Was [01:28:05] it during that peak, GDC 2015, 2016 time?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, probably.

Payman Langroudi: Every single [01:28:10] dentist was.

Payman Langroudi: A little bit.

Payman Langroudi: Earlier. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Probably about probably about 2008. Oh, can’t quite remember. [01:28:15] But it was it was peak. It was.

Payman Langroudi: It was.

Payman Langroudi: Peak time of a type of severe distrust [01:28:20] with the profession. Yeah. Um, and I had a guy who knew patient consult, I treated his [01:28:25] family, uh, and he came in with a lesion lower right on his soft tissue on his gingiva [01:28:30] in his attached gingiva. Didn’t look great, but he said to me, oh, I’ve had this before. [01:28:35] And I said, what was it? And he said, I don’t know. I said, what do they do? He said, oh, I was up [01:28:40] in Glasgow. They lasered it off and you know, I said, well yeah, but what did they tell you? It was, [01:28:45] I can’t remember. And I said, well and I again, to add value to the story, it [01:28:50] was the 21st of December. So I said to him, look, doesn’t look great, [01:28:55] but you know, don’t know what it is. Um, let’s get it checked. And [01:29:00] I said, but you know, try not to worry about it because you’ve had it before. It was nothing. You’ve got it [01:29:05] again. It’ll probably be nothing. Don’t worry about it. Um and his [01:29:10] wife said for the consultation with him, uh, so off he goes. I write the [01:29:15] letter to oral surgery to oral medicine, and we start [01:29:20] over from a.

Payman Langroudi: Good old days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We fax it over and we actually ring oral medicine. [01:29:25] Say, have you got the facts? They said yes, because I did it as a two week, uh, referral. So [01:29:30] he then gets an appointment for the 3rd of January to go and see [01:29:35] them, bearing in mind how many bank holidays we’ve got in that period. So we’re doing all right. And then [01:29:40] on that day, there was a massive snowfall in Liverpool and his appointment got cancelled and [01:29:45] put back two weeks. And in that two weeks he comes in to see me again. Because now he’s he’s actually [01:29:50] in a lot of pain and he opens his mouth and everything’s changed and it’s clearly something very [01:29:55] horrible. Um, and so, but at this point I’m working at the hospital. [01:30:00] So I take a photo and I go in and speak to the head of oral medicine and say, look, [01:30:05] this guy was doing last week. He’s not coming in for another, you know, have a [01:30:10] look at this further. Two weeks and straight away they said, oh God that’s clearly a squamous cell [01:30:15] carcinoma. So I so they said, you know, we more than [01:30:20] just a concert. I will know when he’s coming in. We’ll have it all ready.

Payman Langroudi: We’ll do the biopsies. We’ll just, we’ll run the case. [01:30:25] And so, so I’m thinking this is this is great service that’s doing really [01:30:30] well. And then um, about the Easter, I get [01:30:35] the, the letter that or the book, the, the, the case booklet from the GDC [01:30:40] because this patient’s now going after everybody, uh, he’s going after the hospital for delaying [01:30:45] his care. He went after the Maxfax team for, you know, and they, they [01:30:50] just threw the hospital’s lawyers behind it. No one had done anything wrong. It was it was it was a desperately sad [01:30:55] case. He was lashing out. Um, there were no winners. No winners at all in this scenario. [01:31:00] But he went after me for failing to diagnose and failing to [01:31:05] treat his problem. And now you and I would hope that a GDC [01:31:10] caseworker would have looked at that and made it just go, you know, quick letter, [01:31:15] dear. You know, dear patient, this dentist has done everything he’s done more than everything, [01:31:20] you know, taking photos. I’d gone in and spoke to oral medicine because I had the luxury of that, that, that access, [01:31:25] um, that took 11 months for that to go away.

Payman Langroudi: 11 [01:31:30] months of back and forth as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Back and forth. Um, [01:31:35] it was such a difficult time. I, I was working at the hospital, [01:31:40] uh, and I remember going to speak to Callum Johnson and I said, look, I’ve got this problem. And I [01:31:45] said, look, if I don’t want to bring any shame on the hospital. And he said, you’ve done nothing wrong. Don’t worry about [01:31:50] it. I just started working with Amin up at clinic three, three, four.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [01:31:55] I love that guy.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, we we’ve worked together for 12 years, but I just started there with him. And [01:32:00] I approached him and I said, look, I don’t want to bring any embarrassment on the clinic, you know, because [01:32:05] my my back in the days we’d get the GDC booklet like once a month and [01:32:10] the case hearings would be in there. I thought, I’m going to be on there. I’m just building my reputation [01:32:15] at this point. I’m like ten years in, I’m just, I’m just just about building a name. I was [01:32:20] just started teaching with Phil. I said to Phil, look, I’ll stand back and I don’t want to bring any shame on your [01:32:25] great reputation. And I look back at all of them, said, you’ve done nothing wrong. [01:32:30] This is going to go away. Just you keep working with us, no problem. [01:32:35] But at the time, there was such a distrust of the GDC that [01:32:40] I doubted. I knew I’d done nothing wrong. I can tell a story now, and I know that given [01:32:45] my time again, I couldn’t have behaved any better. And everything was, you know, um, and [01:32:50] it, but it was a dark time. That was because I, you just constantly doubt yourself. [01:32:55]

Payman Langroudi: Everyone around you is telling you you’ve nothing to worry about. I remember coming down to London. Um, I [01:33:00] was with I’m with Dental protection and Jane Merivale, who’s now I think with BDA, was my [01:33:05] liaison. She was brilliant. She was. The support I got from from them was brilliant. And they brought in [01:33:10] external counsel because it was such a serious claim that if it was proven, the [01:33:15] consequences were going to be enormous, even though there was nothing to prove. But they brought in external [01:33:20] counsel. And I remember being in London, I had this meeting for about an hour, and I [01:33:25] felt totally reassured that everything was great. And they and they got to the end. She said, look, [01:33:30] don’t worry about this. Go away. Don’t worry. This is the easiest case that we’ve got to deal with at the moment. That [01:33:35] said, we don’t have a lot of faith in the GDC at the moment, and all of that hour of positivity [01:33:40] was undone and that’s how I slept. I didn’t sleep that night with that last sentence. Um, [01:33:45] that was dark and I was I was horrible to live with. [01:33:50] You know, I had young kids, um, I wasn’t present.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:33:55] was the emotion?

Payman Langroudi: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Is it fear?

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what it was? [01:34:00] There was a fear of a. With hindsight, it’s ridiculous.

Payman Langroudi: And if anyone’s [01:34:05] losing your. Your.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the profession and my one way of earning a living for my family and [01:34:10] my children. Um, we had not long moved home [01:34:15] house to the house we’re in now. We bought a doer upper. So the house was battered. Um, it [01:34:20] was our forever house in the project. And I thought, you know, how are we going to ever afford to run this and [01:34:25] make this work? There were visions of, you know, what else am I trained for? I mean, [01:34:30] we hear that in our profession all the time. What else can we do? And we can do a lot because we’ve got a lot of skill sets. [01:34:35] Yeah. Um, but just just a oh my God. You know, I’m going to embarrass [01:34:40] I’m in, I’m going to embarrass Phil. I’m going to let my family down. And [01:34:45] nobody could get through to me. You’ve actually done nothing wrong. This is going to be okay. [01:34:50] I just I knew it and I nodded and I just didn’t believe it until I got the letter [01:34:55] that.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time with the GDC at that point. It was really. It was an unknown entity. Yeah. Like [01:35:00] what was going to happen next?

Payman Langroudi: I think it was pre caseworkers as well. I think it didn’t it didn’t [01:35:05] go to a full hearing, but it went close to.

Payman Langroudi: You know it’s really interesting. It took 11 months [01:35:10] and you’ve done nothing wrong. Imagine you’d done something wrong. I mean you know like in [01:35:15] a career, sometimes you miss stuff. Sometimes you, you know, you make a mistake.

Payman Langroudi: All day long. [01:35:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s it’s the humanity side of that should be there too. But imagine now [01:35:25] you’ve done something wrong. Yeah. And you’re 11 months in.

Payman Langroudi: I genuinely don’t know how to cope with that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:35:30] And and concerned. You’re not going to be able to pay your kids school or your whatever it is, your mortgage or, [01:35:35] or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: I’d like to think we’re they’re better. I would like to think [01:35:40] they’re better. And I hear from people that they are.

Payman Langroudi: Improving, I think. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I still think we’ve got a way to go [01:35:45] because we you and I still see it on the forums. Yeah. The fear of of being [01:35:50] struck off. And I’ve said it before on, on forums, I actually think it’s relatively difficult to be [01:35:55] struck off. You’ve got to be a real idiot. And you’ve also, even if you make a mistake, the GDC don’t mind mistakes [01:36:00] as long as you show us how it’s not going to happen again. Show us that you’ve done some training. Show [01:36:05] us that you’ve. You know, I think, you know, I think the it is a better environment, [01:36:10] but I still think there’s a way to go. Um, but that was dark.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny thing because it’s [01:36:15] an irrational fear in some ways. Yeah. But, but at the same time, you go back [01:36:20] to that. What is it to be a professional? Yeah. One of the things is to be a professional is to be regulated. [01:36:25] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You’ll know from your wife that it’s the with lawyers, it’s the [01:36:30] same organisation that’s there, BDA and their GDC. Yeah. So, [01:36:35] so that that kind of goes to shows the point that it understands both sides. It understands [01:36:40] regulation and it sounds practice. But with us, there’s this sort of walled off, you [01:36:45] know, the BDA is like your friend, GDC is your enemy sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I think there was [01:36:50] definitely that mindset. And I also think, you know, thankfully, my wife never had any regulatory [01:36:55] issues that she had to deal with of her own. But I always saw with things like the Law Society [01:37:00] that there was an element of, we’re going to back our own and protect them. But if you prove that there that [01:37:05] this person’s a baddie, then obviously we’ll sort this out. And I think the one thing that we always [01:37:10] used to see with the GDC was that there was the fear that we were guilty until proven innocent. [01:37:15] You had to prove your innocence, not the other way. Not they didn’t have to prove your guilt. And [01:37:20] I think that was a fear, um, that we had, whether it was rational.

Payman Langroudi: Lawyers have one for [01:37:25] sure, dude. Yeah. Because notes have become this complete like, like you could have been the best [01:37:30] dentist in the world, but if you forgot to write that thing in the notes, that could be, you know, something [01:37:35] they get you on. Um, not to mention what’s it called? Dental law partnership. [01:37:40] Uh, they buy, they buy a case, you know about that. They go out there [01:37:45] and buy cases from all the other lawyers. Oh, your wife’s a lawyer. So you know how these.

Payman Langroudi: Ex-lawyer.

Payman Langroudi: Now, these sort of things work? Yeah. [01:37:50] Um, I feel like it needs to be an issue. Every dentist must have at some back [01:37:55] of his head something about standards and regulations, but not the number one, two, three, [01:38:00] four, five. Most important thing he’s thinking about, you know, number one, two and three should be [01:38:05] all around the patient. Yeah. You know, maybe then your team. Yeah. All of that then. Number 11. Yes. [01:38:10] Don’t be an idiot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, it’s interesting because I do a little bit [01:38:15] of teaching with, um, Leo Briggs from MD. You. Yeah. Um, he supports some of the [01:38:20] courses that we do and, and he, his view and I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but is [01:38:25] that we write too many notes. Yeah. And you actually, and I see it with some of the younger colleagues [01:38:30] I’m working with. When I get one of their patients referred in house, I can’t [01:38:35] actually find the pertinent information that I need because there’s all this noise. Yeah. And [01:38:40] our notes were always meant to be for us. You were supposed to be able to pick up someone else’s notes, know what [01:38:45] was done last time, know what’s supposed to be done next time. And it was, it was that. And obviously [01:38:50] if something bad happened, You. You told the story in the notes, but you didn’t record every [01:38:55] ounce of every conversation. And actually, you now look at people’s notes and you think, there’s [01:39:00] no way all those conversations actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a disease of the West, man.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Did you know [01:39:05] about this? Like in China, the last three Leaders Xie and Dong Xiaoping and whatever [01:39:10] they were, all of them were engineers. Okay. That’s why when they build skyscrapers, it goes up quickly [01:39:15] and all that. Okay. Over on this side, lawyers are in charge. Yeah. Lawyers are in charge. And it’s [01:39:20] like when you put lawyers in charge and lawyers win. I feel like they have in in Dental. Yeah. Then [01:39:25] then regulatory becomes over important and stuff like this happens. [01:39:30] You know what you’re saying there is very pertinent, right? Patient outcomes are getting worse [01:39:35] because you can’t find the important bits of the notes, let alone you’ve got to spend the time writing [01:39:40] those essays. Patient outcomes are getting worse. But lawyers have won.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:39:45] It’s quite.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy. It’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Can we do the grind the gears question again? Yeah. [01:39:50]

Payman Langroudi: Does your wife not practice anymore?

Payman Langroudi: No. [01:39:55] She left law a long time ago. She had a couple of careers over the years. Um, she did about ten years as a [01:40:00] property lawyer, but she’s done a few things since.

Payman Langroudi: Are you gonna do your own place, [01:40:05] or do you feel like you’re an associate?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. Um, I’ve nearly bought a practice twice. [01:40:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Um, nearly bought a practice many years ago, um, and got a bit shafted [01:40:15] at the 11th hour. Um, I had the option to buy into Rose Lane, um, a few years [01:40:20] back, but it would have meant, um dropping everything else. I did all my [01:40:25] teaching, my other clinics, my hospital at the time, because the only way to make it work was to be there [01:40:30] four and a half days a week. And I was only there three days a week. Um, and I made a conscious [01:40:35] decision. My wife and I made a conscious decision to that. We didn’t want to do that. I [01:40:40] loved teaching, I genuinely love teaching. Uh, it’s great fun. It’s [01:40:45] a, it’s a privilege. Um, And so I just thought, you know what? It’s not for me. And [01:40:50] with hindsight, I don’t for a minute regret it that I’ve not bought a practice and done it. I think [01:40:55] specialist practice, the goodwill is not worth the same as a general practice anyway. Um, I don’t [01:41:00] know that I’d, I’d have been a nice employer, but nice employers are not always the best, you know, [01:41:05] not the best business people.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and specialist associate is quite an interesting position isn’t it. Because [01:41:10] you get better, better um splits than generalists. Yeah. [01:41:15] I think plus the prices are higher. Yeah. So from the business perspective that’s cool. And [01:41:20] isn’t that a happy associate is one of the happiest jobs in the world. [01:41:25] Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you can, if you can do as a specialist, no one’s going to get in your way and tell you what to do. So you can [01:41:30] do what you want to do. All you need is patience, basically. That’s it. Yeah. End of no, [01:41:35] I would agree.

Payman Langroudi: I think all of those things that you’ve said, I, I, you know, yeah, you can command [01:41:40] a slightly better sort of split. You are working on a better split of a higher [01:41:45] fee. Um, you don’t need to be there five days a week because you’re not their general dentist, [01:41:50] you’re not there, you’re not there for the cement crowns. So you can do piecemeal work. The [01:41:55] peripatetic sort of work. Um, the only thing I’d say to [01:42:00] any associate listening is you’ve got to, you’ve got to understand the business [01:42:05] side of a practice though having nearly bought a couple of practices over the years, nearly done that. Yeah. [01:42:10] I, when I go to a practice and I’d hope that anyone I’ve worked with will testify [01:42:15] to this, I’m all in. It’s all it’s about me and I want the best for me. But actually, [01:42:20] I also want the best for the practice. And I’ve always done everything I can to promote the practice and [01:42:25] also promote my colleagues in the practice, because we we all benefit [01:42:30] when we all pull together.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. Right. I mean, when I was an associate, I used to make an [01:42:35] absolute point of defending the principle amongst the nurses. Yeah. You know, like that [01:42:40] us and them thing that can go on. Um, number one, but number two I see it on mini [01:42:45] smile maker on our um composite course you get some associates come and [01:42:50] there’s a, there’s a friction between them and their boss that they 100% [01:42:55] will not buy a goddamn thing. Yeah, yeah, I get it. By the way, I [01:43:00] get it. If your boss keeps on changing your percentage and treating you like terribly, you [01:43:05] start to think, well, why should I put my hand in my pocket? But then you get the other side. You get these super [01:43:10] associates, whatever they call it. The guys bought his own scanner. He’s come he’s [01:43:15] buying everything from us, you know, and and he’s very happy. I mean, he I guess again, [01:43:20] you know, it’s a winner you’re talking about, right? Someone who’s managing to bring his own patients [01:43:25] in and all that.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But then but then everything in between as well. But your [01:43:30] point is excellent because the associates job is, is much more than take [01:43:35] care of these patients. If you’re going to be someone who’s going to, you know, enjoy your work, right? [01:43:40] Enjoy your work, Understand that running a business is tough, and [01:43:45] the number of associates who don’t even realise they’re making a loss for their practice. A number of principals don’t [01:43:50] realise associates are making a loss for their practice. There’s a good amount you have to earn as an associate just [01:43:55] to be cash flow positive for the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Um, [01:44:00] I see as you see on some of the platforms on social media, you know, I’m an associate. I pay my [01:44:05] X percent. I want this, this and this. It’s all very, it’s all very me, me, myself [01:44:10] and I.

Payman Langroudi: Entitled.

Payman Langroudi: And yes, you are your own business. And yes, you’ve got to look after yourself. But [01:44:15] at the same time, you know, you are a business within a business and that your business is only going [01:44:20] to survive if that business does well. And it, I don’t know, I’ve been at Rose Lane now [01:44:25] for 15 years in.

Payman Langroudi: A happy place.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, it’s a really good place.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed [01:44:30] man.

Payman Langroudi: You’re blessed that every now and then there are issues a 17 [01:44:35] surgeries we’ve just moved to. It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Just expanded. It’s a great 17 [01:44:40] surgeries for floor. Fully digital in the house lab practice in the practice in-house.

Payman Langroudi: All [01:44:45] the specialities as well.

Payman Langroudi: Every everything apart from maxfax. Um so yeah, perio. [01:44:50]

Payman Langroudi: Who’s the who’s the principal.

Payman Langroudi: Guy called Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Paul Swanson.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, he’s done really well. He’s [01:44:55] a good guy.

Payman Langroudi: What a hero.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know what the one thing about Paul, he’s never, never [01:45:00] over promised anything and not delivered.

Payman Langroudi: To.

Payman Langroudi: You. To me, I’d say, um. But equally, [01:45:05] if I if I want something, I can’t have it, he’ll tell me why. Um, he’s also [01:45:10] whenever, if ever there was a time where there was a, you know, a split where it [01:45:15] could go 51% in my favour and 49% of his, that’s what he’d take that because it was like, [01:45:20] well, I don’t need that 1% makes no difference. But Ian will be happier. He’s just got he’s had a bigger picture [01:45:25] attitude about not the next six weeks, but the next six years or 20 years. [01:45:30] And you know, I’ll I won’t leave that practice. I’ll retire from there. I’m there three days a week. [01:45:35] I’m a high grossing associate. He knows I look after the patients well. My perio [01:45:40] feeds his implant work because I get sent stuff that Harry Potter couldn’t fix. You [01:45:45] know? So it’s a win win.

Payman Langroudi: How old is he?

Payman Langroudi: He’s actually. He’s [01:45:50] younger than me now. He’s 49.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, amazing. Amazing. So you really will be there for the rest [01:45:55] of your career? Yeah. He’s a good guy. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s. He’s been a good guy to work with. He’s a good friend. And yeah, [01:46:00] a lot of respect. And what he’s built is, is quite incredible. Yeah. Good on him.

Payman Langroudi: We [01:46:05] come to the end of our time. I’m going to end with the usual questions. Um, some quick fire ones. What stands [01:46:10] out to you as one of the best lectures you’ve ever been to? Or a course lecture? I like lecture I’m quite [01:46:15] interested in.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to give you two, if you don’t mind.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Payman Langroudi: So in terms of inspirational, [01:46:20] like blow Your Mind lectures, you’re looking at people for me, like Otto Zur in Germany, [01:46:25] the plastics guy. Um, okay. So while [01:46:30] some of the Italians are truly inspirational, they also often come with big egos. And Otto [01:46:35] is someone who is is quite humble considering how skilled he is. And I’ve spent time with him and [01:46:40] he wants to talk more about Bayern Munich and Liverpool Football Club than just about plastics. [01:46:45] And I’ve spent time over there and they. That blew my mind. What they can achieve and the evidence [01:46:50] base that the way he teaches it was phenomenal. Um, I’ll go back to fill our [01:46:55] though it was 2002 when I got Liverpool job and I [01:47:00] thought, I need to go and do a course and I went and did a four day section 63 [01:47:05] NHS, I think it was three I think Aintree Hospital. And [01:47:10] that blew my mind. I just it was like for all the training [01:47:15] we’d had at undergraduate level, I didn’t really understand anything. We just scraped stuff off teeth [01:47:20] and then we did it again six months later and they just like the. The clouds parted [01:47:25] and just there was clarity and everything made sense off the back of it. And I remember [01:47:30] leaving thinking, is it really that simple? You know, yes, perio can be very complicated, but [01:47:35] actually most of it is very simple fundamentals, doing the basics really well. And [01:47:40] that probably goes for tooth whitening and you know, do the basics really well and you’ll get good [01:47:45] results. And that that, you know, Arlene Thiel well, she changed my life because she [01:47:50] gave me the job that I didn’t really think I wanted. But then fill hour was the one who lit the little fire underneath [01:47:55] me because within, within four years of me going on that NHS [01:48:00] section 63 course, 2006, I went to Madrid to my first Euro perio. [01:48:05]

Payman Langroudi: You guys love that, don’t you? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Perio Olympics.

Payman Langroudi: Glastonbury, it’s the.

Payman Langroudi: Olympics. [01:48:10] Every three years in a major European city. 10,000 people, 10,000 [01:48:15] people.

Payman Langroudi: How many? 30 stages or something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, you’ve usually got at least ten stages [01:48:20] at any one time. The main auditorium is normally about six, 5 to 6000 people. They’re big.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:48:25] interesting.

Payman Langroudi: That’s great. And it’s not all perio. A lot of implant stuff, a lot of research stuff. It’s [01:48:30] it’s. Yeah. And every three years we’re all we’re all going to Munich in 2028. It’ll be great.

Payman Langroudi: Nice. [01:48:35]

Payman Langroudi: So yeah. So. So yeah, the flower thing probably for me was the [01:48:40] career changing lecture. And it wasn’t a lecture, it was a course, but it really did.

Payman Langroudi: What about [01:48:45] if there was no time or money constraints. What course would you jump into tomorrow?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:48:50] would go and do the whole [01:48:55] Otto and Marcus Hertzler talk. The whole program. You look, it’s about [01:49:00] it’s about 30, 40 grand a year. So it’s almost like a mini masters, but it’s it’s [01:49:05] more just the hands on stuff. Um, those guys are gods. It doesn’t matter who you are, you’re [01:49:10] going to be able to learn something from them. I went over and did something just before the pandemic. Um, and [01:49:15] just, you know, remember feeling like I actually knew nothing about anything. And because I’d [01:49:20] had a couple of difficult, I’d had a couple of cases not go perfectly well. And I thought, you know what, even though I was teaching [01:49:25] some of this stuff, I thought, I need to just go back and have a refresh. You know, everyone should do that. You know, [01:49:30] no one’s too big to go on a course. And every time you go on a course, you learn something new anyway. [01:49:35] And so I went over to Munich, spent three days with with the two of them, um, and [01:49:40] just just tweaked everything and came back and then everything started working again.

Payman Langroudi: I got [01:49:45] massive respect for teachers who go on courses, man, you know, like a, it might be [01:49:50] difficult, you know, like for socially difficult to turn up as a delegate. Um, [01:49:55] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A bit of humility though.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t know it all. You never [01:50:00] will know it all. Yeah. You know, you can learn from monarch. Monarch [01:50:05] can learn from someone else or learn from it. It’s just no [01:50:10] one’s got all the answers. And so, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Very true.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I actually think it’s almost [01:50:15] wrong to have a guru. You know, I always think you should if you if you your world is composite, you [01:50:20] should hear the gospel according to 3 or 4 different people. Gallup or, you know, [01:50:25] I think we had D-Day over at the weekend and we were Gulfport, D.J.. You know, [01:50:30] you should go and listen to other people and think, right, whose philosophy fits with me? And that’s the same for perio. So [01:50:35] for us, is it Otto? Is it Zucchelli? Is it Amit Patel? Is it me? Is [01:50:40] it who is it? You know, um, the the Peri Academy. Who is it? Go [01:50:45] and listen to people and decide who do I fit with? Um, because we don’t know. [01:50:50] No one knows it all.

Payman Langroudi: So what comes to mind when I ask what’s your favourite resource? What’s your favourite [01:50:55] book?

Payman Langroudi: Uh, the, the Perry Bible, I [01:51:00] suppose is the, the Lindy textbook. It’s like double volume. Don’t really go to [01:51:05] that much anymore. That was my go to book when I was studying. Um, again, I [01:51:10] keep I’m going to get sponsored by these guys, but Otto’s uh, has, has the big pink book that everyone [01:51:15] talks about the Perry plastic surgery. Yeah. So teeth and implants, that’s just one of the most [01:51:20] beautifully photographed and put together Bibles on the planet. You know, it’s just amazing. [01:51:25]

Payman Langroudi: Love in your face when you say it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just it’s just Kool and the gang stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Um, what about [01:51:30] resource like maybe website, uh, blog, uh, Instagram page or [01:51:35] whatever it is.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know, I’ve got to be honest from a point of view, I don’t follow [01:51:40] many. Um, I tend to follow people. Lecture wise, I’ll go to conferences [01:51:45] because they’re there. Um, I prefer live in, [01:51:50] in event type learning. Um, I think in terms of keeping [01:51:55] in touch with the profession, you know, for dentists by dentists is the biggest platform. [01:52:00] Um, and I’m on there and I contribute and I listen and you [01:52:05] take stuff in. Um, and in terms of personal resource, if I, if I’m [01:52:10] struggling with something, I’m very lucky that through my work over the years with people like the [01:52:15] BSP, I’m quite well connected. I can, I can send Ian Chappell or Philip Preece or a [01:52:20] WhatsApp and, and just have that back up that I’ve, I got this [01:52:25] right Or am I.

Payman Langroudi: Doing this wrong that we all need that.

Payman Langroudi: Mentors or peer support? You know you’ve [01:52:30] got to do it was Nick, wasn’t it? The network effect. Build [01:52:35] your network. Yeah. Whatever world you’re in, build a network, build people that you can, you [01:52:40] can just go, I need a favour or can I ask you this? Or, you know, we [01:52:45] I think we do it. We do it all the time and people do it to me. And I think, you know, when [01:52:50] you’re lucky enough to be part of other people’s network, be there and be be present and [01:52:55] give your time. Because we’ve all had a hand up, haven’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I was going to say, you must [01:53:00] have that now with mentees, right. Huge, you know, getting people excited about, [01:53:05] you know, people did that for you. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Well, even if it’s just a couple of people coming in and [01:53:10] watching me in the clinic or, you know, coming on the course or wanting some mentorship or just some just a Facebook [01:53:15] message and advice, you always, I always just think, well, I had this support, so you [01:53:20] got to pay it back, haven’t you? Yeah. For sure. It’s, um, I think people need to remember [01:53:25] that.

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah, it’s a fantasy dinner party. Three [01:53:30] guests, dead or alive. Who are you having?

Payman Langroudi: Um, [01:53:35] so I did think about this one because I knew I hear the song, all you podcasts. [01:53:40] I’m sort of going to go with a bit of a musical theme. So [01:53:45] it’s not it’s not that musical, but you’ll get it when I explain. So my grandad, my mum’s [01:53:50] dad, um, he passed away before I was 18. Uh, [01:53:55] he never knew I went to dental school. I’d loved to have. I’d loved him to see where I’m. What I’m doing [01:54:00] now. Um, he had a real passion for music. So my musical [01:54:05] tastes are very weird and wonderful. Quite eclectic. One of his things was he [01:54:10] bought every number one single, whether he liked it or not, on on seven inch for about 8 [01:54:15] or 9 years. It’s a collection. Every single one. So whether you know, um, and [01:54:20] he always taught me that a good song is a good song, whether it’s hip hop, R&B, country [01:54:25] and Western rap. You know, just.

Payman Langroudi: I think that I think I agree with that, with the foreign, you know, like sometimes I don’t understand [01:54:30] a word of what’s being said, but it’s good music. Yeah, it’s a good song.

Payman Langroudi: If it’s a bassline or a riff [01:54:35] or something. So my granddad for that reason, and he was a good [01:54:40] guy. One of the people, he was the life and soul of a party. So he’d be great to have a dinner party. Um, [01:54:45] next one’s a bit weird, but I was chatting to my wife about this, but I. Chris [01:54:50] Evans is someone I really like, the radio presenter, Chris Evans.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I know Chris Evans because he. [01:54:55]

Payman Langroudi: I just think.

Payman Langroudi: Back in our day he was on fire. Do you remember.

Payman Langroudi: Well, there was TFI and there was [01:55:00] don’t forget your toothbrush. And he was living quite a wild hedonistic life wasn’t he? Yeah, yeah. [01:55:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um what’s he up to now?

Payman Langroudi: I think he’d have great stories. I think so. He’s [01:55:10] now on. Well he was on radio two for years and now he hosts Virgin. And he’s he’s [01:55:15] totally different to who he was. He’s now teetotal and he’s he’s into running. But he’s actually [01:55:20] incredibly positive. And some people will hate that. Some people don’t. You know, it’s just too annoyingly [01:55:25] positive and upbeat all the time. Driving into work every morning. I quite like the [01:55:30] start to the day. Yeah. And I just think he I like his outlook on life and I like [01:55:35] and, and also he’s got that music background. He’s interviewed, he’s, he’s interviewed and partied with [01:55:40] some of the big, big names. Yeah, for sure. So he’d be good. Um, and my [01:55:45] last one is probably a sort of a musical sort of sort of hero would be Billy Joel. Oh, [01:55:50] um, another guy who’s probably been a bit of a hellraiser in his time and would have some good stories. My granddad [01:55:55] wouldn’t fit in because he was almost teetotal, but he’d fit in with Chris Evans new model. Um, but [01:56:00] yeah, Billy Joel, he’s, he’s someone who I’ve only seen live once. Um, but it was someone that my [01:56:05] granddad got me listening to. Um, and yeah, I think that would make [01:56:10] for an interesting evening. Um, but yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Last question is a deathbed question. Three [01:56:15] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Payman Langroudi: Um. [01:56:20]

Payman Langroudi: You know what? You know what? Let’s skip that. Let’s skip that, because the chances of that seem [01:56:25] to be very similar every time I ask them. Okay, like another one. Um, how would you like to be remembered? [01:56:30]

Payman Langroudi: As a nice guy who doesn’t [01:56:35] take himself too seriously and will always help if you [01:56:40] ask, that would do.

Payman Langroudi: Love that. Perfect.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s [01:56:45] that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Me. That’s someone who’s not taking himself too seriously. Yeah. No, that’s a perfect answer. [01:56:50] Good. It’s been amazing, man. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been good fun.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:56:55] Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make sure you tune in for future episodes. Hit [01:57:00] subscribe in iTunes or Google Play or whatever platform it is. And [01:57:05] you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you would, um.

Payman Langroudi: Give us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star [01:57:10] rating. That’s what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks [01:57:15] a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: One of the most common questions I get is how do I do more teeth whitening? The basis of that is to really [00:00:05] believe in it, and the basis of that is to fully understand it. Join us for enlightened online training on [00:00:10] enlightened Online training.com to understand how to assess a case quickly, how to deliver [00:00:15] brilliant results every time. Next time. Whitening Underwhelms try and lighten. Now let’s get to the [00:00:20] pod.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where [00:00:30] you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:40] Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Sheena [00:00:45] Gillan onto the podcast. Sheena has just finished [00:00:50] DC Dental Corps Training two and is in practice. [00:00:55] Yeah. Yeah. So first time I met you, you were a T plus one. F [00:01:00] t plus one.

Sina Gilannejad: Just finished.

Payman Langroudi: So did you go f t straight into DCT or did you have a stint [00:01:05] in practice?

Sina Gilannejad: I went, I went f d straight into DCT straight in DCT. Yeah. I um [00:01:10] I finished f d and I just had like [00:01:15] a crippling anxiety for extractions was the main thing. So if I had [00:01:20] an extraction the day after or the day before, I wasn’t sleeping, stress stressed the whole time and [00:01:25] I’d always end up like snapping at the roots of everything. Like just it haunted [00:01:30] me. And it sucked because in dental school, I was really good. So I was like, that’s [00:01:35] to summarise it. But I was like, I cannot live my life like this. [00:01:40] So I, I did DD1I went to to where you studied. Yeah. [00:01:45]

Payman Langroudi: When was that for DC1 and two.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, no, that was just for DCD1. Oh yeah. So finished PhD in [00:01:50] Manchester. Uh, did DC.

Payman Langroudi: Studied in Sheffield.

Sina Gilannejad: No. Studied in Bristol. Bristol. [00:01:55] Yeah. Oh I knew the Sheffield lot like Adam. Well Adams. He was Leaders. I just knew through mutual [00:02:00] friends.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And, um. And yeah, [00:02:05] I just, you know what? Moving. So for those of you that don’t know, [00:02:10] um, moved from Northern Ireland is where I was born. My parents are Iranian, so [00:02:15] I’m all over the place. Grew up in Northern Ireland, had an amazing time, amazing childhood. And then we’re. [00:02:20]

Payman Langroudi: About.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, in Lisbon, ten minutes from Belfast.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah. I’ve been there. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ve been to [00:02:25] Lisbon?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s kind of southwest.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah it is. Why would you do the Lisbon practice? [00:02:30]

Payman Langroudi: The what?

Sina Gilannejad: No way. Yeah. Lots of old people there. Yeah. It was [00:02:35] lovely place. Like back in Northern Ireland. I was like the most at that time, the most diverse thing [00:02:40] that there actually was. But like, I wasn’t really diverse because I was still white. So it was very easy for people to digest, [00:02:45] you know? So I had a lovely time growing up, played lots of rugby. It was my big thing. [00:02:50]

Payman Langroudi: Good people.

Sina Gilannejad: Good people, man. Yeah, really nice people. The kind of place where you go walk your [00:02:55] dog and you’ll be in half an hour conversations for a while. You just have to talk. It’s expected. [00:03:00] Yeah. And, um, and then I got to, I finished my A level and I was always [00:03:05] a home bird. I was always going to just stay where I was. Um, and [00:03:10] then I finished my A levels and I kind of just looked around and it’s such a small place. So you just see [00:03:15] everyone everywhere. And I just looked around and I was like, you know what? Not too many of you are actually [00:03:20] like good friends. Like you’ve done some sly stuff, things like that. I [00:03:25] think, I think I might just spread my wings a bit. So I just applied anywhere and everywhere [00:03:30] in the UK and Bristol took me, um, they gave me an interview, went, did an interview, [00:03:35] passed and then I just had to get the grades, slipped up the grades. I got two days in a B because I took physics, [00:03:40] which I loved. I loved physics, that’s why I did it. But it was hard. And then, uh, took a year out, worked [00:03:45] at my dad’s pizza shop that whole year, which was one of the most transformational [00:03:50] things of my life, like, especially in terms of communication [00:03:55] and dealing with the public. It. It’s taught me everything I know [00:04:00] about how to deal with patient interactions. And I find, you [00:04:05] know, and I think that’s probably like one of my main strong suits, if not only is [00:04:10] how I speak and treat people and, um, and I think it’s just because, [00:04:15] you know, you can, you can mess up someone’s tooth, but if you mess up their food, it’s game over.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:04:20] was that the first time you’d worked in your dad’s place?

Sina Gilannejad: I, I was in and out like a while, but was the first time [00:04:25] I properly like every every weekday, some weekends and stuff was working there and he did [00:04:30] gruelling shifts man. You know, he’s, he’s the he’s the the working class. He [00:04:35] came he moved over from Iran 40 years ago just before the revolution. And [00:04:40] and he just got to work. He was working in London first, um, did black cabs. So he like remembered all [00:04:45] the streets and everything. And then he was in KFC for a bit, became manager there and then I [00:04:50] think he moved to um Northern Ireland for cheaper education at Queen’s. He [00:04:55] did textiles or something and then he opened his his pizza shop and it was just his baby, [00:05:00] you know. And and it’s still to this day, um running. I think it’s just had its [00:05:05] 30th, if not more. It’s not even 30. I think it might be like coming up to 40th anniversary [00:05:10] as well. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it one of those late night places you get.

Sina Gilannejad: No, not even it used to be. So when I was working there, unfortunately, [00:05:15] it was like from 4 to 1 a.m. it was hell. And working [00:05:20] that long is hard enough. But working with a family member, especially when you’re like an angsty teen like I was, [00:05:25] oh my goodness, it’s a wonder we’re still in touch.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what my dad, my dad studied in Queens [00:05:30] as well. No way. In Belfast in the 50s. In the 50s, economics?

Sina Gilannejad: No [00:05:35] way.

Payman Langroudi: And I’ve got loads of friends who are half Iranian, half Irish. [00:05:40] Yeah, because of all his pals. Yeah.

Speaker 4: There’s a, there was a like.

Sina Gilannejad: You knew everyone [00:05:45] in that time. You knew everybody. That was because the Iranian community was really so small at the time. [00:05:50] Yeah. Um, you y’all just saw each other everywhere and.

Payman Langroudi: Become a really good town now as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Belfast is [00:05:55] good. You know what’s even better? I don’t know if you’ve been to Bangor. Bangor. It was a small seaside [00:06:00] town and that they’ve innovated it so much that they’ve give it a city status as well. So [00:06:05] yeah, so it’s nice. It’s just a really simple place to go. And, [00:06:10] and that’s nice. Especially like if you’ve like, you know, been in mainland, we call here in mainland, [00:06:15] um, or London for so long. It’s a nice place to just, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But good restaurants and [00:06:20] things now food.

Sina Gilannejad: Is good. Yeah. Seafood obviously is amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, [00:06:25] it’s, I always say it’s, this is in the past. It used to be always at least like ten, [00:06:30] 15 years behind everywhere else, like, um, with legislation like [00:06:35] gay marriage, he got legalised here and then like ten years after it took at least for [00:06:40] Northern Ireland to do it. So it was always lagging behind. But now I think it’s [00:06:45] improved itself so much that the younger Your generation, who [00:06:50] the young professionals would stop moving out so much and actually stay in the city. And, [00:06:55] and it’s booming, you know, like we actually finally have fried chicken there now. Yeah, it took a while.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:07:00] had some good food there. And also we did the event. We did our composite course there quite a lot. [00:07:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Nice.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, man. Like it’s one of those places where good news travels fast and bad news probably as well.

Speaker 4: Yeah, [00:07:10] yeah yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: So we had a lot of word of mouth. And so we did it there 4 or 5 times massively. [00:07:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And like, you know, you’re talking about the education side of things, especially my last two years in hospital, [00:07:20] I spent, you know, I got I was so fortunate to work with hundreds of consultants and so [00:07:25] many of them did a residency in Northern Ireland. Really? Because the troubles back then, you had so much trauma [00:07:30] to. Yeah, you had so much experience. And funnily enough, the sort of tail [00:07:35] end of that was, you know, whenever I was deciding, am I going to do dentistry and medicine because I liked I like the sciences. [00:07:40] I like talking to people. So it was, it was always going to, and I didn’t want to sit behind a desk the whole time. So it was always [00:07:45] going to be between dentistry and medicine. And I did a work experience at the hospital for [00:07:50] medicine and it put me off. But I saw first of all, like at that time, [00:07:55] because I didn’t have the skills to help anyone, I felt very hopeless and, you [00:08:00] know, melancholy and sad at the hospital, it was just grim. And then I was in A and E and like, [00:08:05] some poor guy got kneecapped as they did back in the day. There he was just crawling across the floor. I was like, yeah, no, [00:08:10] I think I think dance should be better. Yeah. Um, but it’s crazy that, you [00:08:15] know, in the career that I’ve had so far, I actually kind of went full circle and [00:08:20] ended up doing a lot of work in hospital. So nice place to come from, man. But yeah, [00:08:25] I got, I got bored and I saw everyone. I was like, ah, let’s, let’s meet some new faces. And then Bristol accepted [00:08:30] me.

Payman Langroudi: What a great town. Bristol is amazing. I love that town.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantastic. I, [00:08:35] I had the best five years. Full [00:08:40] stop.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop.

Sina Gilannejad: Full stop. That’s it, that’s it. Put on the t shirt. It was. The people were [00:08:45] so lovely. It was a perfect mix because, you know, I was like, I’ve been to most student cities now. [00:08:50] Like Liverpool was way too studenty for me and still lovely, great fun as [00:08:55] well. But Bristol had a lovely mix of student family life. So much to do, so unique [00:09:00] in itself.

Payman Langroudi: Beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful. Yeah. Unfortunately now it’s just so expensive. [00:09:05] Um, but back then it was just about affordable and the Dental school was [00:09:10] amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It knew right?

Sina Gilannejad: Not. So I was fortunate when I was Dental [00:09:15] president there, I was actually on the board who we designed the new hospital. So [00:09:20] unfortunately when we built it and opened it, I got to see around it. But by that time I was graduated. [00:09:25] So so I didn’t get to study in it. But I know the facilities it they’re insane. [00:09:30]

Payman Langroudi: So you were the president?

Sina Gilannejad: I was the president. It would have been just after Covid. Okay. [00:09:35] 21 and, um, that was another really, really good year of my life. [00:09:40] And it was if I hadn’t done that, I would have never met my wife as well. So it’s really good.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re that [00:09:45] cat, the one who says, I want to be the president?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I [00:09:50] kind of like it.

Payman Langroudi: I wish I was there.

Sina Gilannejad: I think, I think I [00:09:55] think early on it was always that kind of thing. And I was so close [00:10:00] to not doing it in the end. So early on, I did always want to be the Dental president because [00:10:05] I obviously, like you’re younger, you see, like the prestige that comes with it and everything. But it’s like the, the idea [00:10:10] that you can actually make some not to be cringey, but to make some real change. Yeah. And [00:10:15] like I said, like everybody wants to feel unique in a, in a certain way. And, [00:10:20] and I, from that experience I had with working at my dad’s, I really did feel [00:10:25] and was told that my, my unique selling point was just being able to [00:10:30] talk to people as a human, like getting, getting that patient interaction perfect, [00:10:35] like dealing with an angry, patient, sad, patient, happy, patient, um, you know, anxious patient. [00:10:40] That was my selling point. And, and that came through to to my interactions [00:10:45] with my friends as well. When I was younger, I was always called like the agony [00:10:50] uncle, like the person everyone would come to, and I was seeking it. I was seeking to help people’s problems and looking [00:10:55] back over it and doing like a lot of like, you know, reminiscing and analysing. It was definitely [00:11:00] from a place of trying to busy myself with so many other people’s problem that I wouldn’t deal [00:11:05] with my own. Interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Yeah. It [00:11:10] took me a while to figure that out. And then once I figured that out, I tried to stop doing that as much. But [00:11:15] from from a place like that was was why I wanted to do presidency. And I was so close to not doing it [00:11:20] before the pandemic. I just felt like, you know what? There’s so many lovely [00:11:25] people around me that would be so much better. They’re way more organised than me. They’re way more proactive and [00:11:30] stuff academic. They would do better. So I wasn’t going to put my name for it. And [00:11:35] then the pandemic hit. So I was in fourth year. No, I was in third year. Fourth year [00:11:40] is whenever in Bristol you can apply for presidency. And [00:11:45] I said when the pandemic hit, a lot of people pulled out [00:11:50] because it was obviously such a tough time and we all realised what was important and and [00:11:55] just wanted to sort of get back in and get back to normality and didn’t want that extra weight on. [00:12:00] And at that point, I was kind of like, everyone’s losing their minds, everyone’s freaking out. I [00:12:05] feel like maybe this is something I can get involved in now. Like I felt like in [00:12:10] an emergency situation in my head, I wasn’t so worried about messing up anymore because [00:12:15] I was like, anything is better than this.

Sina Gilannejad: You just need to calm people down almost. And so I did it and [00:12:20] I had such a great year. We did so much. Um, you [00:12:25] know, just the, the new Dental school alone took up so much of my time. And, and if [00:12:30] that was all I did, it was great. But we did so much at that time, like it was during like BLM, we did [00:12:35] decolonise the curriculum per se. And um, what They colonise [00:12:40] the curriculum. I can’t even say curriculum. Yeah. So it was in [00:12:45] essence exactly what it says. So the a lot of the oh, well, oh, a good example [00:12:50] is it’s much it was actually when we did, we looked into our research, we found [00:12:55] out that the problem was more with the medics than the dentists. And it’s basically that a lot of [00:13:00] the research and evidence based practice that we have is on the typical white [00:13:05] 70 kg male and didn’t account for people of [00:13:10] different backgrounds, different skin colours and how conditions would look look like [00:13:15] as well. So a big part of decolonising the medical curriculum was a, I can’t remember the name of it, but a lovely [00:13:20] book, um, uh, that was released of skin conditions in people of [00:13:25] different skin Pigmentations.

Sina Gilannejad: Um, and that was in essence, you know, that inspired [00:13:30] us to do the same with dentistry. So one of the big ones was, um, that you always [00:13:35] hear floating around, but no evidence was really given Was teeth being harder to extract [00:13:40] in African Americans. And because of the density of the bone. Now I’ve [00:13:45] still been looking around. There’s no good studies that have been done anecdotally. I think a lot of us, especially me, having [00:13:50] spent so much time in oral surgery, anecdotally, a lot of us probably agree with that. But because there wasn’t [00:13:55] anecdotal, sorry, because there wasn’t an actual good evidence about that, we had [00:14:00] to sort of refine, like how we deliver that to patients [00:14:05] to, to students, to students. And then another big thing was oral medicine as well. Um, you’ve [00:14:10] got lichen planus. Um, you can get it obviously on skin as well. You’ve got other conditions, like blistering [00:14:15] conditions that can also get it on skin as well. We had to, we went through all [00:14:20] of our oral medical stuff and actually thankfully, um, and really reassuringly, we were actually [00:14:25] quite good. We, we were on board, we did show them in different populations [00:14:30] and different cultures and different.

Payman Langroudi: But that sounds like there’s a, there’s a sort of political, ideological. [00:14:35] Yeah. But sort of angle on it. So explain it.

Sina Gilannejad: 100%. Explain what [00:14:40] the decolonisation part.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So it’s again, it’s just making sure it was making sure that the curriculum [00:14:45] wasn’t just based around the white male that we trained our students to [00:14:50] a point where they, because.

Payman Langroudi: Because our patients are diverse, are so diverse.

Sina Gilannejad: And in London, it’s a [00:14:55] really easy way to see that, isn’t it? Yeah. You live, you work in one borough, you’ll have a completely different [00:15:00] demographic. You know, you live in one borough. You’re treating, um, mainly Caribbean [00:15:05] patients. You’re living one. It’s it’s all, um, Bengali patients. [00:15:10] You have one Sudanese, you’re the ones all white. So, um, it was to gear [00:15:15] them up for that.

Payman Langroudi: It could be, it could be seen as purely a, you know, Dental medical thing, right? That, you [00:15:20] know, we’re not we’re not covering this cohort of patients. But was there like a timing issue around BLM [00:15:25] that made this definitely become a thing?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, this was the thing. It was very, uh, [00:15:30] a big part of what I was worried about is coming off performative. [00:15:35] And that was a massive thing I was worried about, especially with like, how.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t want to virtue [00:15:40] signal. Yeah, exactly what you mean by performance.

Sina Gilannejad: I think we’re on the same page. You know, like [00:15:45] a lot of the companies and stuff were advertising [00:15:50] it, but not actually doing anything to action. Exactly. So like that.

Payman Langroudi: So like greenwashing.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:15:55] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That’s what I was really worried about. But then at the same time, part [00:16:00] of the movement is educating yourself. Yeah. So that’s, that’s how we did. And, and, um, another big [00:16:05] thing was being in the community. So the equality, diversity and inclusion, um, which [00:16:10] turned out there was no one of much diversity in [00:16:15] that not and, and again, it’s finding out why was that the case? It’s just because no one knew about it [00:16:20] and no one actually. Then when they knew about it, no one bothered to join. So that was a really difficult part. It’s [00:16:25] like, it’s really hard for me to vouch for you from for your background. I [00:16:30] can get your opinions and stuff, but you know, sometimes you need someone that’s there to [00:16:35] actually vote for themselves as well. But that’s not easy and not everyone’s built for that. So it was a really interesting [00:16:40] time.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve ever been politically active, like outside of this little piece.

Sina Gilannejad: No. [00:16:45] And I’ll tell you why I was so scared of politics growing up in Northern Ireland. [00:16:50] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s on being an Iranian as well.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s a really. Yeah, absolutely. [00:16:55] Exactly. There was two like it was almost two kind of Canadian ways of thinking [00:17:00] about it. Like very much I didn’t want to upset anyone. I didn’t want to get anything wrong. So [00:17:05] I just dug my head in the sand. And, and that definitely wasn’t the right way to do it. [00:17:10] It’s just I, I was almost scared of having an opinion or [00:17:15] thought that me being so okay with everybody’s opinion was [00:17:20] my opinion. But I’ve changed a lot since then. I’ve tried, I’ve backlogging [00:17:25] always trying to educate myself a lot more and like the history of North [00:17:30] America.

Payman Langroudi: It was a funny time back then because we were. The number one issue that everyone was [00:17:35] worried about was not offending. Yeah. People.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And if you, you know, it’s really difficult [00:17:40] to to sort of talk. Mhm. And only [00:17:45] talk in a way that offends no one. Yeah. You end up only being quite [00:17:50] vanilla.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And you can have such.

Payman Langroudi: A if that’s your primary concern. I mean, of course I don’t want [00:17:55] to offend anyone, but if it’s my primary concern and there was a level of fear involved in it, like a [00:18:00] fear of getting cancelled, fear of saying the wrong thing and all that.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, cancel culture was huge.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:18:05] Huge. And, you know, whatever you want to say about Trump. And there’s a lot you can say about Trump. Yeah. The [00:18:10] fact that that pendulum got swung a little bit back. I mean, the trumpet song many, [00:18:15] many kilometres. But but but it had gone too far. It had gone too [00:18:20] far.

Sina Gilannejad: It went in a you almost and like you said, with [00:18:25] that idea of trying not to offend anyone, you do so much talking and end up not actually having said any points. And [00:18:30] that’s hard. And I think and I think unfortunately, that’s just the way society [00:18:35] had brought us up. And I think we should be and hopefully are coming to a place where we can [00:18:40] have our own beliefs and they can be strong beliefs. But we’ve lost so much of that [00:18:45] respect that’s in between. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s so hard to [00:18:50] have a communication. Like, let’s just break it down into left and right. You can’t talk to each other because [00:18:55] you just end up fighting against me or you, or you automatically assume that they’re wrong. Because I, [00:19:00] I’d like to think we could probably all agree that the right answer most of the time is quite [00:19:05] in the middle. But where we just swing on extremes the whole time.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:19:10] one thing I find quite interesting is, let’s say you’re you’re [00:19:15] naturally left wing. Mhm. I find it quite interesting listening to [00:19:20] right wing stuff. Mhm. If I’m a left winger.

Sina Gilannejad: In terms of. [00:19:25]

Payman Langroudi: Like the, the I listen to a lot of podcasts. In my case would be podcasts. And [00:19:30] it’s painful. It’s painful because it’s, you know, there’s your natural bias [00:19:35] is to listen to what you agree with. Yeah. But then that becomes a bit of an echo chamber. Yeah. [00:19:40] I’m very much interested in what the other side. If other side, if you like, inverted commas [00:19:45] are thinking and saying, yeah. And so but the weird thing about that is you [00:19:50] then do end up getting affected by that and actually moving towards that [00:19:55] direction a little bit more.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, yeah, you start to see exactly.

Payman Langroudi: You see the other side of the argument. Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. [00:20:00] And you said, well, yeah, that actually that is a problem. I don’t have an answer from that, from [00:20:05] this extreme point of view here. So you’re right. It does drag you more into the middle. And that’s and that’s exactly what you need. You [00:20:10] need to be open. And you’ve just said it. The reason we don’t do it because it is really uncomfortable.

Payman Langroudi: It’s uncomfortable. I still get [00:20:15] I find it hard. It’s like a painful tooth. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s pushing it.

Sina Gilannejad: You [00:20:20] listen to a podcast like most of the time these days, we have it when we’re talking to a patient and [00:20:25] they obviously they all of a sudden say something, they get comfortable, then they say something and you’re like, I don’t agree [00:20:30] with that. But this is obviously not the place to get into a political argument with you or something like that, you know? And [00:20:35] that’s the thing, like even me, I’ve just straight away said a political argument. Yeah, I could have just had a discussion [00:20:40] and we’ve lost that a lot. And, and I to try [00:20:45] not to boil things down to one single causing factor. I do think [00:20:50] it’s probably in the political Leaders is the [00:20:55] political leaders benefit for that to be the case, to polarise people? [00:21:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I had a friend, I tell you where I first lost my innocence around [00:21:05] politics. I mean, being an Iranian, you’re gonna you’re born with [00:21:10] that. But but I had a friend. He was, um, quite political. His dad had been [00:21:15] something in government and then he was quite political. He was at LSE. Um and he was very much [00:21:20] a right winger. Um and you know back then it was like Thatcher time Right. But [00:21:25] you didn’t. You weren’t young and right wing. This guy was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today [00:21:30] it’s kind of changed. But back then, all young people were a bit left. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You got a mortgage and all [00:21:35] that? This guy was quite right wing, and he was standing for some president of, uh, [00:21:40] LSE Student Union or something.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, wow. He’s. Oh, he’s probably into it. Like I.

Payman Langroudi: Said.

Sina Gilannejad: Not just opinions. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he [00:21:45] said to me, come, come. We’ve got some. What is it, hustings. Whatever it is. Yeah. He said come and just [00:21:50] support me, you know, just like clap when I say something. So sure man. You know childhood friend. [00:21:55] Yeah. A few of us went and um, they introduced him and [00:22:00] they said, yeah. And representing the Green Party, him and I was like, what? Green [00:22:05] party? Yeah. He was the most right wing person I’ve ever come across. Yeah. And I kind [00:22:10] of couldn’t understand it. And he made his speech and then he came down and I went up to him and said, dude, what [00:22:15] the hell is this Green Party stuff? And he just looked at me and he goes, you don’t really think I was going to be a conservative [00:22:20] in LSE, do you?

Sina Gilannejad: Really?

Payman Langroudi: And I was like, what? And he went. You think I’m gonna win as a conservative, [00:22:25] right? Buddy, I lost so much innocence on that day. This 18 year [00:22:30] old. Yeah, yeah. True. Yeah. And and the pursuit of power was [00:22:35] was the thing that this dude was after. Yeah. And and and I saw it in its truest form. [00:22:40] You know, like it’s.

Sina Gilannejad: Scary, man. And I mean, that’s, like you said, the loss [00:22:45] of innocence. Obviously, you kind of get your eyes get open. It’s like, what the heck? It’s almost like you [00:22:50] want to not believe it. Yeah. You hear them on the movies and stuff like that. You don’t want to not believe it. Then all of a sudden [00:22:55] you got the files coming out and all this stuff. You’re like, wow, this is what we know now. Like, what don’t we know? It’s [00:23:00] crazy.

Payman Langroudi: I used to, I used to listen to this conspiracy thing. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: I was literally thinking.

Payman Langroudi: About years ago, years [00:23:05] ago. And the guy said, yeah, there are these Satanists who like kill babies. And I [00:23:10] was like, this guy’s an idiot.

Sina Gilannejad: What’s going on? We’d all say.

Payman Langroudi: That. Well, this guy’s like mainstream. [00:23:15] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You probably.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s crazy to think, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:23:20] remember telling my buddies, you know that your mobile is constantly recording everything you’re saying. [00:23:25] Yeah. And my my two closest friends, they got worried about me and they [00:23:30] had like an intervention. Yeah. They were like, dude, we’re really worried about you. You’ve become paranoid. [00:23:35] And then literally six months later, the Snowden Snowden stuff came out [00:23:40] and said, yeah, everything. Everything’s being recorded. So I went back to them. We pissed off. And [00:23:45] then it’s so weird. They both completely forgotten that conversation immediately. Of [00:23:50] course, you know, it’s weird how like that, you know, they call it the Overton window.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like shifts. What’s [00:23:55] what’s acceptable to talk about?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, massively. And you know what? Like I was actually thinking this [00:24:00] because obviously on the way here, um, I had my own podcast. [00:24:05] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I should have introduced you like that. I’m so sorry.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s all right.

Payman Langroudi: It wasn’t my most of the presenting [00:24:10] complaint, which was one of my favourite. I used to listen to that.

Sina Gilannejad: So sweet. Yeah. So me and, um, [00:24:15] Adam.

Payman Langroudi: Adam, who I had on this pod.

Sina Gilannejad: You did? And Adam, a lot of people will probably know from [00:24:20] his original thing that he had, which was, uh, the the positive [00:24:25] smiles club. Well, positive smiles club.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s right. And that’s [00:24:30] how I first met Adam and became friends with him was through that. So it was such a lovely. It just [00:24:35] brought. So it was at a time where I was a student and I was just doomscrolling on Dental [00:24:40] Instagram comparing my pegs of crime preps. If. Well pegs is is [00:24:45] giving it. They didn’t have the height to be a peg. It was just a stump of, uh, crime preps and [00:24:50] just getting so beaten up by how like terrible my skills were. And, [00:24:55] um, and then I saw Adams and it was just, it’s exactly what it is. Positive [00:25:00] smiles and, uh, talked to these amazing dentists that everybody respects and [00:25:05] to hear like some real true, it’s how they feel and how they actually [00:25:10] act and realising that they’re all human. And actually the beliefs that I have are so unrealistic. So, [00:25:15] um, from that, uh, met up with Adam and Leaders. We instantly bonded, instantly [00:25:20] gelled, really good friends. And then when I was I had a really struggled [00:25:25] in my foundation year, my year, um, after dental school, because I, I’ve, I really thrived [00:25:30] in dental school, um, socially, academically, I did quite well as well. [00:25:35] And, um, just everything really went my way. I was, I was really fortunate and I didn’t [00:25:40] get the imposter syndrome or anything like that, that everybody else got during the time. [00:25:45]

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s not just sounding big headed. I just had a really good time. But all of that hit me when I went [00:25:50] into PhD. You know, there was a big break over the summer, um, and [00:25:55] then lost a few skills as well. Came into the real world in dentistry. And, and it really affected [00:26:00] me. And the thing that made it worse for me was actually, I had a fantastic, I got [00:26:05] Manchester as my DCT, my, sorry, my PhD post, which was the, the hardest to come [00:26:10] by. I think I ranked like 12th in the country for um, the sjt and things [00:26:15] that you had to do to, to rank. Um, so I did so well in that I got the top place in the country. I had [00:26:20] the best practice, the best is the best nurse, lovely [00:26:25] patient. I had everything. So to have all that and still like feel so anxious [00:26:30] of extraction, so anxious for any treatment I did that I wasn’t going to go well. Patient was going to hate me. It [00:26:35] made me feel worse. I was like, I’ve got it’s so much better than everyone else and I’m still struggling. [00:26:40]

Sina Gilannejad: So like double down. And there came a really real point. [00:26:45] I was crying so many times a week, you know, I really, really struggled. [00:26:50] I had family things that were going on at the same time as well. And when they those [00:26:55] family things, thank God, got better. I still felt really bad. And that’s when it really hit [00:27:00] me like a massive weight. I was like, oh no, the problem is, is inside. It’s with me. [00:27:05] So I started therapy and started [00:27:10] to understand myself more, started to deal with that childhood stuff that I was really saying at the start that actually [00:27:15] all this help I was doing for other people was pushing down. Or [00:27:20] just maybe I wouldn’t say, you know, I had a lovely upbringing as well. Maybe I didn’t [00:27:25] have much going on back then, but I didn’t deal with any small thing and it just [00:27:30] built up. Um, and it led to that massive confidence thing. [00:27:35] Um, and I got scared. I said, if this is going to be the rest of my life, I [00:27:40] don’t know what I’m going to do. So that’s one of the massive drivers [00:27:45] that took me to seeking DCT. I [00:27:50] just I needed a DCT.

Payman Langroudi: Move on before you move on. Yeah, give me an insight. Like in your particular [00:27:55] case, what was the problem and what was the unlock? [00:28:00] I mean, was there like a perfectionism that you were trying to achieve? And [00:28:05] that came because of when you were a child, something happened or and then what was the unlock [00:28:10] understanding that that’s where the, the, the root of it was because one thing that we do a mental health [00:28:15] podcast. Me and Rona. And one thing I realised about mental health after having [00:28:20] a few conversations, is that the same stimulus can give two people totally different responses. [00:28:25] Yeah. Um, based on the way that you take that stimulus. And so [00:28:30] it doesn’t make any sense for me to say, hey, why, why did that bother you? Because it’s just something [00:28:35] so simple. Um, or, you know, one, one person can go through war and, and [00:28:40] come out of it, okay? And the next person can have their mom say something and [00:28:45] break up over it, you know? Well, give me your reflections on that, the process [00:28:50] of finding that out. Um, was it painful? Was it the opposite of painful? It [00:28:55] cathartic.

Sina Gilannejad: It it was painful, actually. [00:29:00] Yeah. So I listened, I listened a lot to your podcast on that mental [00:29:05] health. I know like how many professionals you get in as well. It’s so nice to hear their thoughts. And I think [00:29:10] you two have such a lovely relationship to not challenge each other, but you know each other enough [00:29:15] to call out something and, and explore that. And I love that. And, um, [00:29:20] I think, I think if I’m digging back to sort of the childhood kind of stuff, [00:29:25] you, you kind of, you touched on it before, you know, like you’re [00:29:30] in this area where politics feels so taboo, a lot of different opinions feel so taboo. [00:29:35] So you just want to be a people pleaser. You want to say the right thing to be on everyone’s [00:29:40] side and, and never get cancelled, things like that. Um, and that happened for so long that it [00:29:45] just, it just became my personality and.

Payman Langroudi: And it weighed [00:29:50] on you.

Sina Gilannejad: It weighed a lot. Yeah. And in dental school, I can’t [00:29:55] say I did much different, um, in terms of sort of sticking true to myself or having [00:30:00] my own like actual beliefs rather than trying to understand. Yeah, I’ve always [00:30:05] understand everyone, but always trying to agree to their point. And so that [00:30:10] was a massive thing. Another thing just [00:30:15] digging into perfectionism was, was, and still is my biggest difficulty. I, [00:30:20] I have a problem of starting so many new hobbies [00:30:25] or starting things, not being instantly amazing at it and kicking it to the kerb. But [00:30:30] when, when you’re in dental school, you have this massive [00:30:35] goal of becoming a dentist. And that is fantastic. It’s, it’s good motivation to get you through it. [00:30:40] So those rubbish coin preps, I just, I honestly, the crown preps were [00:30:45] my worst thing. I was so bad, so bad.

Payman Langroudi: And would you laugh at now. [00:30:50] Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. It’s so funny. And it would ruin it would ruin me. Like I remember I was in the [00:30:55] clinical skills lab in Bristol and, um, she’s not there anymore. She’s in a different [00:31:00] profession, but the, um, nurse that was in charge, um, [00:31:05] Adele, she’s such a dear friend to me. She would always be signing you in, signing you out and everything. [00:31:10] And she was so good at people’s mental health and everything because Clinical Skills lab gets to you, gets [00:31:15] to you like having.

Payman Langroudi: This time you’re doing everything.

Sina Gilannejad: Exactly. Seeing like how long on the [00:31:20] road actually is. And there’s this one time we came back, I think it was start of third year.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, [00:31:25] clinical skills lab is the phantom head. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we had to do [00:31:30] a full metal prep. Um, and we just got back from like summer holidays and I saw it and I looked at it, I [00:31:35] was like, I just got angry. I got filled with rage. And I said, Adele, I’m going. Where are you going? I’m going to the gym. I just need [00:31:40] to get rid of this energy. It’s like, you can’t, you can’t leave. You get in trouble. She was like, just try. I have tried. [00:31:45] And she said, no, no, no, it can’t be that bad. And I showed it to her and she just looked at it and she was like, okay, I’ll sign [00:31:50] you off. And I was like, right, no, I’ll take that as a, as a plus. Thank [00:31:55] you. And yeah, so, so, but, but you were in the environment. Everyone was trying to get better. [00:32:00] You have this goal to become a dentist. The, like the first hardest thing was actually getting into a dentist school. The [00:32:05] second thing is actually completing it. And then I got there, I practised, I did so much work [00:32:10] that made me such a good person, such a good dentist. Sorry, maybe not such a good person, such a good dentist. Um, [00:32:15] and like actually being able to do the, the, the preps and [00:32:20] everything like that. You can see the development. It’s great. That’s the nice thing about a practical job. You [00:32:25] can physically see yourself improving and that’s good motivation. And then became a dentist. [00:32:30] And then all of a sudden, one of the main drops that sort of led to the spiral [00:32:35] was I lost a massive goal. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, because you’ve become a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Become a dentist [00:32:40] now, like now what? And, and all I did back in my life was set massive unattainable [00:32:45] goals, like goals that I thought that I couldn’t make but I could work towards. And like I said, [00:32:50] rugby was a huge part back in my life because, you know, you’re a young kid with all this testosterone [00:32:55] and energy and you need to put it towards something. And it was rugby. And being an Iranian, I hit puberty [00:33:00] fast. So that helped a lot. And then I somehow I then got to the [00:33:05] the top team in rugby and I was like, that’s the first big goal. So then I’ll do dentistry. And then I became a dentist. [00:33:10] And then all of a sudden I was at a point in my life where I didn’t really have a [00:33:15] massive goal for myself. I’m not talking about like finding.

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:33:20] I get it.

Sina Gilannejad: You know, a relationship, finding a wife, it just a personal goal.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, and [00:33:25] I don’t think it’s talked about enough. Yeah. That that first day and first few months in [00:33:30] the PhD job. It’s hard, man. It’s hard. You’ve got no, no no one [00:33:35] around you anymore. I mean, you do write on that, on that.

Sina Gilannejad: But no one like on the same level. [00:33:40]

Payman Langroudi: As you.

Sina Gilannejad: In this exact same place, same number.

Payman Langroudi: Of days. You know, the other thing, my daughter’s just announced she wants [00:33:45] to be a dentist. 15.

Sina Gilannejad: How does that make you feel?

Payman Langroudi: Uh. Happy, happy, happy in the end. Happy [00:33:50] in the end. But but but. 15. Yeah. Yeah. Until the day when [00:33:55] you arrive and feeds. 24.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, and, you know, [00:34:00] arguably she’s been working from 2013 to, to be top of her class or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. [00:34:05] You talk about like ten years of struggle.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Proper struggle. Yeah. We all know [00:34:10] getting into dental school now, a complete nightmare.

Sina Gilannejad: It was hard back then.

Payman Langroudi: Now it’s a complete [00:34:15] nightmare. And then surviving dental school. Complete nightmare. And then you. And [00:34:20] then you get to this point, you’re like, Now I’m a dentist. Yeah. All right. Yeah. And suddenly [00:34:25] it’s not that interesting. Yeah, exactly. It’s one of the reasons I started enlightened in the childishness of that [00:34:30] feeling. Yeah. I was like, oh, I need more impact. Yeah. Um, but, but let’s [00:34:35] move on and, and sort of talk about, you know, the perfectionism [00:34:40] being on, on the one end, you know, like every, everything you are is your [00:34:45] biggest strength and your biggest weakness. Yeah. Your perfectionism is a massive strength. Yeah. Yeah. And yet, as [00:34:50] you’ve just discussed, a massive weakness, have you now learned to be more forgiving [00:34:55] of yourself because, you know, you can perfectionism to you could mean being the best [00:35:00] crown prepper in your practice. Yeah. Or it could be being the best crown [00:35:05] prep in the whole of Dental beauty. Yeah. Or in the whole of the UK or in the whole world. I [00:35:10] mean, it just goes on and on and on. It’s impossible to be perfect. So have you found yourself, [00:35:15] like, forgiving yourself a little bit more, being kinder to yourself? I think is that the unlock or is there a different [00:35:20] unlock?

Sina Gilannejad: I think I have not, I [00:35:25] only did a small stint of therapy, and I’m definitely gonna be going back [00:35:30] and making a regular thing, I think.

Payman Langroudi: But how did you find your therapist? [00:35:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, so I used a practitioners health and, and that’s something I advocate [00:35:40] a lot on me and Adam’s podcast. Um, it’s a free NHS service for dental [00:35:45] and medical practitioners. Oh, really? Yeah. To use. And so you sign up, um, and [00:35:50] they, it’s about two month wait, three month wait, it was back two years ago, [00:35:55] which is not bad to get free cognitive behavioural therapy. So that’s what’s, that’s what they prescribed [00:36:00] me in a way to do an initial assessment and then see like, which way would go. And [00:36:05] the whole premise of it is that everybody knows your medic, everyone knows your dentist. Everything you know is confidential. [00:36:10] And they you don’t have to waste time explaining the stresses of your work, you know? [00:36:15] Um, so that was really nice. And the main thing for me was I was free to be honest, because I’ve just [00:36:20] started PhD. I’m living away from home. Yeah. You know, I got everything I wanted when I [00:36:25] was a kid, but by no means was there very much surplus. So that was a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: And so [00:36:30] what did you learn? What did you learn? So you the signs, the early signs of.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I actually [00:36:35] learned what exactly was wrong with me, which is crazy because I [00:36:40] went in, I went in like a sociopath. I went in being like, they’re gonna say this. [00:36:45] I’m gonna tell them this, this, that, and they’re gonna say it’s because of this, this, this and that. I was like, [00:36:50] cocky about it. And I was like, I’m just not gonna help. I was, I’m definitely the worst patient. [00:36:55] And I went in and I thought at that [00:37:00] moment everything that was wrong with my life was my family issues, health, [00:37:05] health of my family issues, you know. Um, and [00:37:10] that once that was over, I’d be okay. That’s what I thought. [00:37:15] And the reason I actually then went to the therapist was because.

Payman Langroudi: It didn’t get better.

Sina Gilannejad: It didn’t get better. And [00:37:20] that, like you said, was that a relief? Was that a what? It was a massive crushing weight. That [00:37:25] was the moment where I was like, I remember so well [00:37:30] sitting in my room getting the call and everything was good, and [00:37:35] then just sitting and I was so happy. And then I hung up the phone and I just, I just remember just staring [00:37:40] off in the distance and just literally saying out loud shit, because it just hit me. I was [00:37:45] like, oh, this is it’s all inside. It’s me. It’s not [00:37:50] my external factors and things are going to get better once it’s done. It’s with me. And I’ve used so many things as an [00:37:55] excuse to mask that until now, like I can’t run away from it anymore. So then I got the [00:38:00] therapist, and when we talked, I talked about the family stuff the whole time. Sorry, I thought I would be talking [00:38:05] about the family stuff the whole time. And in that first session, I talked about it and [00:38:10] the whole premise of I’m going to do this, you know, I’m not going to do it justice right now. But [00:38:15] the main premise of cognitive behaviour therapy is really taking a thought that you [00:38:20] have. So me saying, I’m not a good dentist. Okay, why? Because [00:38:25] when I do a crime prep, it’s not perfect. Okay. What is perfect? Oh, [00:38:30] with this and this and much. Okay. What? Like did what you do still work? Yeah. Okay. Well, then [00:38:35] why are you upset about it? Can, you know you can get better? Yeah. And do you think that’s unrealistic? What you thought is. Yeah. So [00:38:40] it’s it’s d catastrophizing everything.

Payman Langroudi: Breaking it down.

Sina Gilannejad: Breaking it down, taking that thought, seeing [00:38:45] how unrealistic it is and how I actually don’t really care about that. And [00:38:50] then what do you do afterwards. And, and instantly that was the family stuff. So after I had, I think maybe [00:38:55] eight sessions after the first session, I didn’t talk about my family ever again. [00:39:00] I was like, at any time, like I said, that psychotic part of [00:39:05] being like, I’m gonna say this. They’re gonna say that never, ever once said anything that I thought. And [00:39:10] that blew my mind. It I, I got so much trust in that therapist. And I always say to my [00:39:15] patients, now, you know, and this is another topic we’ll get on later. But the whole like patient, [00:39:20] oh, the society outlook on dentists, how negative that is. [00:39:25] And I have a massive proponent. I am a massive believer. My a huge opinion. I have [00:39:30] working in hospital and working in practice. So being the referrer being the one you [00:39:35] refer to, the dentists are the worst people for this relationship that we have. Obviously [00:39:40] back in the day, it’s a hot topic. I should, I should have get through that. Back [00:39:45] in the day, dentistry was completely different. All right. You’ve all heard that story of [00:39:50] dentist did this without numbing, and they were on my chest and all that stuff. And we all know like the stuff that [00:39:55] patients can incorrectly perceive, but we can [00:40:00] all you have to understand that she absolutely was different back then. 100%. So people do have very [00:40:05] real trauma that comes about it and they say this, this and that. But the last dentist, and [00:40:10] then from what I’ve seen, what most dentists just shovel the shit.

Sina Gilannejad: They’ll [00:40:15] say, oh, they did this, they did that or this, this, that. There’s always excuses. There’s never [00:40:20] there. Obviously there is, but it’s hardly ever listening, understanding, first [00:40:25] of all, acknowledging to the patient like, that sounds like a lot. I’m really sorry that that’s what you [00:40:30] went through. Um, if it means anything, seeing from what your dentist did, I [00:40:35] don’t necessarily think they did anything wrong. It was just a really tough situation for you and them. [00:40:40] And unfortunately that relationship broke down. I’d like to hope that we can do something different, um, and [00:40:45] get on board with that. And that’s it. You’ve not put down another dentist, you’ve not done that. You’ve [00:40:50] not had the upsell here, upsell there, You know, I’ve had in practice so [00:40:55] much bad talk about hospital. Mhm. I, [00:41:00] I know I work in practice now. I know how busy and crazy practice is. And [00:41:05] you are the first interface a patient comes to. And when you can’t [00:41:10] solve the problem and you have to tell the patient, there’s this much weight, it’s really hard. And the patient [00:41:15] comes back like, oh, they left the root in there and blah, blah, blah, stuff like that. And then it’s so easy to talk bad about hospital. But [00:41:20] I’ve also been in hospital where they talk bad about dentists. So I’m so fortunate that I took that experience to see [00:41:25] all the sides. Um, and I think the one, the main thing that we can control is how [00:41:30] we treat each other. Patients will, you know, if a patient [00:41:35] has decided they don’t want to like you, they won’t like you.

Payman Langroudi: So true.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about [00:41:40] DCT.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT was such a journey. Best decision I’ve ever made. [00:41:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Sina Gilannejad: Best decision I’ve ever made. So?

Payman Langroudi: So you’re. Is that your advice [00:41:50] for everyone.

Sina Gilannejad: My my advice, and you’ll hear this a lot in me and Adam’s podcast. Me [00:41:55] and Adam’s podcast to to generalise it. This was the premise we had was I [00:42:00] had just finished PhD, had a terrible time mentally and was in a place [00:42:05] where I felt like, like you said, the main thing you said was you just don’t have that person [00:42:10] there to talk to anymore, to rationalise, to be like, oh, I’m feeling exactly the same and this, this, that and this. And [00:42:15] that’s what I wanted to fix. I needed to hear that. So the premise was Adam had just started PhD [00:42:20] and I had just started DCT. So as we’d start, we’d both reflect on [00:42:25] week on week. Yeah. And obviously I had the advantage [00:42:30] of having done PhD. So when Adam was feeling this way, I’d tell him about my experience. And through [00:42:35] that we shared it with everyone else. And that was the main feedback that we got. So many people said, [00:42:40] I just really needed to hear this. Like, it was so nice to hear that I’m not the only one. And this advice that [00:42:45] you sort of said to try and get ahead was so good, because I’m a keen dentist, [00:42:50] but I’m not sitting at night scrolling through all these articles [00:42:55] and things like that and listening to all these Dental like, like, you know, the meaty [00:43:00] like, like an amazing podcast like this or Protrusive dental podcast where they’re actually [00:43:05] giving you amazing advice. I just can’t like, I just, I was like, I don’t want to think about dentistry anymore, which is why I [00:43:10] listened to a lot of the mental health one that you have. Um, and Adam is much more keen, but he’s very [00:43:15] realistic. So we went through that and my DCT one. So after [00:43:20] PhD.

Payman Langroudi: Just explain to see one and two, like what happens? Do you zoom in on a particular [00:43:25] area?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. So to, to summarise it, if you want to do [00:43:30] Dental core training, which is usually ends you up in a hospital or the community dental practice setting, it’s [00:43:35] the only requirement it is, is if you ever want to specialise through a hospital pathway, [00:43:40] you need to have done DCT one and two.

Payman Langroudi: There’s like, like house jobs in our day, [00:43:45] right?

Sina Gilannejad: It’s exactly that. It’s replaced what used to be a senior house officer. Okay, it’s exactly that. Okay. [00:43:50]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so what subject were you?

Sina Gilannejad: So I, when I finished PhD, I [00:43:55] was lost. So I said, I want to get better at extractions and see what everything else I can do. And [00:44:00] I want to teach. So you the way it is, you’ve got a massive list [00:44:05] of all the posts in the country that offer txnrd1, and each one of them will say, this is DC [00:44:10] one in restorative, this is DC one in Max, this is DC one in oral medicine, every single [00:44:15] speciality or a combination. And that’s what Cardiff was. I had six months, uh, oral [00:44:20] surgery and oral medicine. And then the next six months [00:44:25] was um, was more oral surgery. It was restorative. [00:44:30] It was mainly it was just restorative. But I still did like the emergency clinics and all. Yeah. There [00:44:35] wasn’t, I was lucky there was no uncle and I didn’t do maxfax. That was the main thing. I didn’t do. Maxfax. It was it was [00:44:40] the one thing I missed out. And I had a blast. First of all, taking [00:44:45] the foot off the pedal from practice because hospital. One of the main things [00:44:50] is it is definitely a slower pace. It is much nicer.

Payman Langroudi: Slower, more social.

Sina Gilannejad: Way more social, which [00:44:55] I thrived off. I love it, I love sticking my head in here and having a gander and talking to this and then like treating one patient, [00:45:00] go into the next room treating another patient. Loved it, loved it, really thrived in that aspect. And you know, the [00:45:05] people pleaser in me had a great time. Yeah. And, um, and I learned so [00:45:10] much, like once you finished dental school, all those stupid lectures that you just had to learn all of [00:45:15] a sudden then you do a year in practice, you start to see actually what is important. You start [00:45:20] to filter out things and then actually you become more interested. I hated oral medicine in dental [00:45:25] school because I just was so bad at remembering things, and there were so many small details to, to [00:45:30] learn. And then I went into Cardiff and I had the best time.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis, did [00:45:35] you have him?

Sina Gilannejad: I had my first of all, I had his book and the first day I was working there.

Payman Langroudi: Mike Lewis was one of the best teachers. [00:45:40]

Sina Gilannejad: He.

Payman Langroudi: Full stop. Not just teachers of oral medicine. Unbelievable. [00:45:45] Teacher. I know he was. He was Dean and all that, but.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, he was he was.

Payman Langroudi: Everything. But when I was there, he just come. He’d just come [00:45:50] from Bristol, I think, or Glasgow. He, he was, he, he was [00:45:55] such a brilliant teacher. Every single person in my year and in our cohort [00:46:00] the, the years around. Yeah. All of us or medicine was our favourite subject [00:46:05] because of Mike Lewis.

Sina Gilannejad: And it shapes you. It does.

Payman Langroudi: Brilliant teacher.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. And they always say like, if you ever end [00:46:10] up specialising, someone asks you who taught you because they just inspired you. So true. That’s it. Because [00:46:15] all aspects of dentistry, it’s pretty fun. And if you actually get inspired to [00:46:20] learn about it, it’s great. So Mike Lewis, the first one I met when I went to Cardiff, um, and then, [00:46:25] uh, Phil Atkin I met as well. I think he would have been there at that time as well. And [00:46:30] I fell in love. Mike Lewis something that he above his teaching, above everything is the charisma [00:46:35] that man has. Oh my God. Yeah. He can speak. Oh you know what. Thank God he’s on our side. [00:46:40] If he was like a Nazi or something.

Speaker 5: And it’d be over.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be over. He’d probably turn the whole country. That’s how [00:46:45] much charisma he has. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, uh, so yeah, I, I had a, the [00:46:50] oral medicine, the subject I hated the most. All of a sudden I was researching and [00:46:55] I was looking and I was really into it and I loved it. I started to understand it so much more. Oral [00:47:00] surgery, oral surgery is funny. I didn’t get any [00:47:05] surgical experience that I wanted. I just had a lot of simple extractions. I got [00:47:10] some like surgical here and there, no weights or anything like that. So that was a big reason for me going for.

Payman Langroudi: At least you got good traction. [00:47:15]

Sina Gilannejad: And, and you know what? And the nurses, they would throw a fit [00:47:20] if it went surgery would be like, oh, it’s gonna be so much effort. I’m doing this that so the fear of, of hearing [00:47:25] that made you make sure you luxated properly elevated properly. And I got very good at [00:47:30] simple extractions, which is definitely a good the foundation you need to then move into Surgicals. That’s [00:47:35] right. And then Restoratives as well. I, I got to see everything you could do, you [00:47:40] know, the obviously just the secondary pathway in itself was amazing. And [00:47:45] then something I really fell in love with in restorative was getting to treat the oncology patients. [00:47:50] These people that had radical head and neck therapy like.

Payman Langroudi: Radiotherapy. [00:47:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Obturators, these crazy things, you know, half their face cut off and somehow these prosthesis [00:48:00] put back in and Cardiff, uh, one of the most advanced, if not the most advanced [00:48:05] um lab in the country. They have 3D printers out the wazoo, scanners out [00:48:10] the wazoo. They’re doing charity work for dogs that have had half their face shot off. [00:48:15] And really in Puerto Rico somewhere it was, I can’t remember. And they’ve got like a skeleton [00:48:20] mesh framework of that. And they send it off. They do so much. It’s a fantastic. They’re they’re also [00:48:25] now working with the general surgeons and the surgeons to make custom prosthesis, 3D printing. [00:48:30] Fantastic. That was amazing to work for. And yeah, so I got so much confidence [00:48:35] through that. And I always. And from that experience, I kept telling Adam on the podcast. Look, when [00:48:40] it comes when you just start PhD, you have to apply for DCT. So soon [00:48:45] you won’t know if you actually want to do it or not, but just apply for it. It’s free, apply for it. And if you don’t want to do it, don’t [00:48:50] do the stuff. That’s fine. At least your name’s there.

Sina Gilannejad: If you want to specialise, great. But [00:48:55] most of the time going into hospital makes you not want to specialise. And that’ll be the consultants [00:49:00] that tell you themselves because they say, look, what do you want to do? I want to be really good at restorative. It’s okay. Learn here, go [00:49:05] do it privately or become a staff grade here. You don’t have to specialise so much time, so much money [00:49:10] is what you want to do. You don’t actually need to specialise for oh, okay. So you [00:49:15] start to learn what you can do. And that’s a massive thing for oral surgery as well. So the advice would [00:49:20] be if you’re dead set, then yeah, you do DCT because you need specialise. If not, do it because [00:49:25] you learn so much about the career. At least you know where you’re sending your patients. You know, the state that the NHS [00:49:30] is in right now as well. And I it would never go down, [00:49:35] but I really and I was told this as well. I I really believe my dk2 was in Max Fox, and I think there [00:49:40] should be at least a six month rotation in Max Fox.

Payman Langroudi: Mandatory.

Sina Gilannejad: Mandatory. [00:49:45] It makes you an amazing. It. I was at the end. I was like, I don’t [00:49:50] have surgical experience. I want to do another DCT because I’ve got the freedom to move around. [00:49:55] I want to do it somewhere good. And because I think I’ll never go near Max Fox again, or sorry, [00:50:00] I’ll never go near Max Fox if I don’t do it now. I want to try Max Fox. And I was humming and eyeing and I [00:50:05] was. I was tearing myself apart, just trying to think like, is it worth it? Like I’ve heard these horror stories and everything. And then [00:50:10] one of the oral surgeons finally said to me, they looked at me and they just said, look, whatever [00:50:15] you choose, you’re going to learn clinically, you will 100% max. You’re going to learn [00:50:20] so much about yourself. And we said in the way here, you did Max Fox stint as well, and you said, it [00:50:25] makes a man out of you. It it absolutely does. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it puts stuff into [00:50:30] context, man.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I needed for a perfectionist. Yeah, that’s exactly what for someone that’s [00:50:35] scared of the worst case scenario. What’s the worst case scenario? Someone could die.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Go [00:50:40] to the max box. You’ll see the worst case scenario.

Payman Langroudi: Scare the shit out of you, mate.

Sina Gilannejad: I was so scared. So [00:50:45] I had a lovely, lovely friend. I still have a lovely friend in 2 or 3 years above [00:50:50] me. Name is Maria. And I put up my Instagram. You know, I we we got, we [00:50:55] got really good traction with the audience on Instagram since our podcast. And I put on Instagram, I was like, [00:51:00] I didn’t know where to put. I was like, oh, I should put a store on Instagram. I said, anyone know anywhere good for Max wax? Um, [00:51:05] and then she popped up and she just said, Go to Chesterfield. I was like, what the hell is Chesterfield? [00:51:10] I’ve never heard of Chesterfield, bro. Um, and um, I said, okay, why? [00:51:15] She said, you know, there’s no Night-Time, uncles, no weekend uncles, you’re [00:51:20] on call, but really supportive practice place and you’re only one of two [00:51:25] seats. So you’ll have so much.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll see a lot.

Sina Gilannejad: You’ll see a lot, do a lot and do a lot. [00:51:30] Yeah, absolutely. And then any of the major stuff, like the really, really crazy stuff that comes through and he goes to Sheffield. It’s [00:51:35] like sick.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s kind of a good point. Yeah. Because you you sometimes think if I go to a major [00:51:40] teaching centre, that’s the place to learn, but that’s the place to see. Exactly. Not [00:51:45] the place to do 100%.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s exactly it. And that was another thing that was told to me when I [00:51:50] was in Cardiff. They said, go to a district general. So District General Hospital for people that know is just a [00:51:55] smaller hospital. It’s not a city centre hospital like a London one. It’s like somewhere in like a [00:52:00] Surrey’s own hospital or something like that. And it’s a smaller hospital, which means you’ve got less patients [00:52:05] going through. And for some really maybe not great reason. Um, [00:52:10] good for you. I don’t think it would have been maybe it’s been ten years plus now, but [00:52:15] before these district journeys would be doing all the major surgeries. So if you’ve got like these 12 hour [00:52:20] head and neck surgeries, they do them. But then something called centralisation happened. And actually all the major [00:52:25] surgeries, those like the major cancer surgeries, all that they have to be done in a central hospital. [00:52:30] So again, those were sent to Sheffield, which meant that I didn’t get much experience in the cancer [00:52:35] surgeries I did because I took like some weekends off and I actually went and saw them [00:52:40] and. But I didn’t like so keen. Yeah, no, just to see it. And then I’d be like, yeah, good.

Payman Langroudi: It’s super [00:52:45] interesting. It’s super interesting. It’s, but to, to, to build on your point, I, I went to, uh, [00:52:50] I mean, it was a place for underprivileged people [00:52:55] in Iran. My, my uncle was a dentist. And, uh, in one [00:53:00] day I was, I was second year dental student in one day I took out 45 teeth. [00:53:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Amazing. Which is what I did in five years.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, [00:53:10] you know, there was a queue outside and my uncle would go outside and inject everyone in the queue so they’d [00:53:15] be fully numb by the time they literally standing in the street getting injected by him. It [00:53:20] was the government, you know, like the, the, the, the, the sort of safety net government thing, only [00:53:25] extractions. That’s what it was. But, uh, you learn right when you learn when you do. [00:53:30] Yeah. So. Okay. So you one thing, you’ve [00:53:35] got a responsibility here insomuch as a lot of people are going to come [00:53:40] to you and ask for advice. Mhm. Even in your limited career, I mean, you’re you’re [00:53:45] still a baby, right? Yeah. Mhm. But because of the podcast and all of that, people are [00:53:50] going to come and ask advice. Yeah. And there’s a responsibility in giving that advice. And one [00:53:55] thing I would always tell anyone who’s asking for advice is to bear in mind [00:54:00] the bias of the person you’re asking.

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of makes sense anyway, [00:54:05] right? If I ask you what I should do, you tell me what you did. Yeah. And you give me that. [00:54:10] It makes sense because that’s all you know. Yeah. Yeah. But as the person giving the advice, you do [00:54:15] need to sort of bear that in mind. Like, like discount for that bias. [00:54:20]

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Because, you know, one guy might have fitted to do what you [00:54:25] did. Mhm. But then like, for instance, your wife Mantsebo shouldn’t do any of [00:54:30] this, right? She went to.

Sina Gilannejad: She went straight into.

Payman Langroudi: Practice. Yeah. Yeah. And and the benefit that she got in practice [00:54:35] while you were doing this stuff might be right for someone who, who gives who’s coming [00:54:40] for advice 100%. But that whole advice bias thing, because, [00:54:45] you know, bear in mind from my from my position, yeah, I get lots and lots and lots and lots and lots [00:54:50] of people asking me for advice. What should I do next? I’m not going to tell all of them to start, you know, like [00:54:55] Dental supply companies. Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. But if I, if I just [00:55:00] told them what I did. Yeah. Which a lot of people do, you know, then everyone gets the same advice [00:55:05] from you.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s an important responsibility of someone in your position. And you’re only [00:55:10] newly in this position.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I graduated in what is it, [00:55:15] 24 years. 2022, bro. It was like, it’s just about to be four years since I [00:55:20] graduated. So that’s why I’m very conscious not to come on here and talk like, uh, Bill gates or someone. [00:55:25] I am a I’m still a Dental baby. But and this was what the podcast was so amazing [00:55:30] for, because we talked to those other people, I talked to so many other people and I had Adam and [00:55:35] the main, the main advice most of the time, especially for the young ones, is hospital [00:55:40] versus general practice. Yeah, I’ve done both now and even when I was in hospital because [00:55:45] I saw it. So most people want to do restorative. And I asked him, what do you want to do? Restorative? Okay. [00:55:50] Do you want to treat head and neck cancer patients? No. You’ll do more cases in practice. How [00:55:55] do you get good at something? Repetition. I get to take out tons of teeth [00:56:00] in hospital because that’s all we do. That’s repetition. That’s. I needed to go to that hospital. [00:56:05] Maxfax you can’t do in a practice, so have to go to hospital.

Sina Gilannejad: But if you want to get good at restorative, [00:56:10] then do restorative, stay in a general practice, do the work. If you can afford the courses, do the courses [00:56:15] and you’ll get there. You and you will get there much faster. To become a restorative [00:56:20] consultant. You’re the main things you’re getting is much more responsibility. You have to [00:56:25] oversee all the staff grades and everyone that’s. And everyone getting referred from the country to that, to that [00:56:30] to your place. Yes. You get to try some crazy innovative stuff and you’ve got the protection of the hospital behind [00:56:35] you. But if you want to do smile makeovers, you [00:56:40] go to a hospital for get good at the basics in general practice. Get good at [00:56:45] making getting people out of pain. Get good at taking teeth out. Um, so that when things go [00:56:50] wrong, you can just take it out at least. Um, and then invest in these courses. There’s [00:56:55] so many courses. The hardest, the hardest thing would be to choose which course to go on. Um, and for [00:57:00] that one, you just have to talk to people or specialise.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Sina Gilannejad: Or specialised. But Payman [00:57:05] what a lot of the awakening moment for me was, um, [00:57:10] I had a, I only had him for one teaching session and he said to me, my biggest regret [00:57:15] in becoming a specialist was um, rushing to become a specialist. He said, I [00:57:20] did the straight pathway. I did dental school training year then into the speciality pathway. [00:57:25] Oh, sorry. One two. Into the speciality pathway. He didn’t take a break in between. He said I regretted that so much. [00:57:30] I could have specialised at any time I wanted. Yes, I was fresher, yes. I wouldn’t have had a family and stuff like that. But I’ve had [00:57:35] my family and everything.

Payman Langroudi: Where’s the regret?

Sina Gilannejad: The regret was doing it too much, he said. Too quick because he could have [00:57:40] been in practice for a while, learned that stuff, get good at the basics and then do it or take [00:57:45] things chill. Like he’s got all this responsibility. You take time off. A half a dozen [00:57:50] people just died for some reason.

Payman Langroudi: The thing about specialising is expensive. Yeah, massively. That’s it. [00:57:55]

Sina Gilannejad: Massively.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really it. It’s hard. Expensive. Anyone can do it. I know people, I know people who [00:58:00] knew nothing and no one. If you like that phrase. Yeah, [00:58:05] specialised and you everything and everyone. Absolutely.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: They [00:58:10] went from NHS practice to full mouth rehab. Yeah. In Harley Street [00:58:15] because of a three year course. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. [00:58:20] Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Um, I get your point. You don’t have to. Some of the best dentists [00:58:25] I know aren’t specialists, right? You can you can go to Spear and Kois and and a [00:58:30] bunch of other courses here and practice. Practice really important. Yeah. [00:58:35]

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the it’s just a way of trying to take pressure off those young dentists [00:58:40] because that’s the pressure I had. You get taught in a, you [00:58:45] know, all the dental schools in the UK, you can have your opinions and which ones which. But all of them are [00:58:50] global. You know, they’re up there, they’re up there. They’re top, top ten, top 20. [00:58:55] They’re absolute institutions. So you’re going to learn from really [00:59:00] successful and really good clinicians. Obviously some of them we know are rubbish, but [00:59:05] you’re going to and you’re going to be inspired to become a specialist. So you come out thinking that’s the pathway next. That’s the next [00:59:10] big goal. And then in my head, I was like, is that the next big goal? I guess maybe, [00:59:15] maybe that will help me. And when I went into hospital, I started to see I [00:59:20] could do it. But I don’t know if that would feel what [00:59:25] this hole is at the moment. I’m still looking for that.

Payman Langroudi: So are you looking to be [00:59:30] restorative?

Sina Gilannejad: Um, I want to be perfectionist. [00:59:35] I want to be able to be good and [00:59:40] predictable with as many things as I can.

Payman Langroudi: Um, like a super generalist.

Sina Gilannejad: I [00:59:45] think.

Payman Langroudi: Like, have you considered a year course aspire crystal. [00:59:50] Yeah, I have.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m at a place unfortunately where financially I can’t [00:59:55] commit to it yet because I’ve got a lot of financial commitments that I have made or want [01:00:00] to make, and I, and I don’t want to rush into things [01:00:05] I really don’t from, from all the advice that I got from these, you know, accomplished [01:00:10] staff grades and specialists in hospital, it’s [01:00:15] made me just realise that it’s not a race. And actually I’ve realised that. And [01:00:20] and one of the biggest parts of my healing has been realising that maybe dentistry wasn’t [01:00:25] everything. It wasn’t as important to me as I [01:00:30] wanted it to be.

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean?

Sina Gilannejad: It means that I. I thought [01:00:35] it needed to be my life’s work and passion. Mhm. But then after Max factor, then realising [01:00:40] how quickly these things can go away and actually. And [01:00:45] after getting married, I was kind of like, oh, I like this a lot more than dentistry. [01:00:50] And and it’s okay. And I want to be fulfilled by the work that I do, which [01:00:55] I was in hospital and the skills that it’s given me. I, I am in general practice [01:01:00] now, but I want to be fulfilled and let it pay [01:01:05] for the life that I want to live. And [01:01:10] that’s a life that I think I’m still trying to figure out which [01:01:15] direction that is. Is that a non I love teaching. Teaching was the best and Cardiff. [01:01:20] I got so much opportunity in Chesterfield. I got to teach a lot of the Sheffield grads [01:01:25] as well, and it was so nice because I felt like I was healing myself [01:01:30] at the same time by trying to give like the advice that I wish I got back then. [01:01:35] And, and I think a lot of me wants to [01:01:40] invest more into that side of things. So I’ve not ruled out hospital. Um, but [01:01:45] it was really nice to, it is really nice to come to general [01:01:50] practice and I almost started as an PhD again. Yeah. The first three months was so [01:01:55] hard getting used to.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about that. Tell me about that to Dental beauty. You’ve got [01:02:00] a principal there.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. So I’ve been working in Dalston and I’m working in Basildon. [01:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: On two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Two different, both Dental beauties.

Payman Langroudi: Are they both the same principle or two different.

Sina Gilannejad: Two different principles as [01:02:10] well. And um enjoying it very much in both places.

Payman Langroudi: Is that a coincidence or [01:02:15] was that like.

Sina Gilannejad: It was thankfully, because, uh, my wife has been here for multiple [01:02:20] years and she was working with Dental Beauty as well. She got to know a lot of them [01:02:25] as a small circle. Yeah. And so she told me that wants to go for. Yeah. And that’s it. And they were the first [01:02:30] ones I applied for and I got them. And a massive thing that I could bring to them was my sedation experience [01:02:35] and, um, an oral surgery experience. So, um, a lot of my work [01:02:40] is general and then the majority of the, the work I do extra is the extraction. [01:02:45] So I do the wisdom teeth. I did a surgical extractions.

Payman Langroudi: Um, are you fully confident with [01:02:50] wisdom teeth?

Sina Gilannejad: Like it’s a whole different because, because like I said, I didn’t [01:02:55] do any surgical in DC one. All my surgical experience with DC two. That was one year. Yeah. Um, and [01:03:00] obviously in that year, you got to get, you know, the speed of things, getting on call, going to A&E [01:03:05] and stuff and the surgical stuff. There’s a whole other aspect of Maxfax. But I got so much experience. [01:03:10] I got taught by someone who is absolutely my best [01:03:15] friend now, um, is Andy. He’s he’s a staff grade. He’s [01:03:20] everything I think that I want to have, like, I want to farm. I want to be [01:03:25] able to like, just get in and do anything and, and, and be the one to save the day and stuff if it can’t [01:03:30] come out and, and we get on so well. And, and I was he [01:03:35] just let me be the lead surgeon. And no matter what, he’d always be there for me. And, and a massive thing about [01:03:40] learning is, yes, the, the repetition, the practice, but just knowing there’s [01:03:45] a safety net, the idea of knowing me, especially like for me anyway, I can only really [01:03:50] compare it to, well, I’ve done all aspects now, but knowing that someone’s there for you to [01:03:55] save the day for an extraction makes you actually go for it and do it properly. And, and he [01:04:00] was a massive thing for me. And having not having that safety net now is [01:04:05] so scary.

Payman Langroudi: You find that difficult.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, it’s it’s scary. And, you know, I’ve [01:04:10] had, you know, teeth Did something. I got told I’m a [01:04:15] very through my prime. What was it? Throw my toys out the pram kind of person. [01:04:20] So you know if the exception doesn’t go right for me, if I leave a retained root of an eight, you know, [01:04:25] or it’s like massive, dense bone and nothing’s moving, I have to leave it behind. I take it to heart really badly [01:04:30] and it’s still a problem. I’m getting better with it every time. But, um, that happened in practice and [01:04:35] patients fine. And she’s so lovely. Um, I was, I was almost taking it [01:04:40] more to heart. I did take away more to heart than she did. And it came to a point where I had to check myself so she wouldn’t [01:04:45] start consoling me. And after that, I definitely hit a crossroad [01:04:50] where I was like, I kind of feel like I’m either never going to be the [01:04:55] special interest oral surgeon and do these again, or I’m this is where [01:05:00] I, I buckle down, book more in and learn and show myself that I can [01:05:05] do it. And thankfully I did that. And after the next week or two, um, I did like a [01:05:10] few more wisdom teeth and I actually went as expected and it brought a lot of confidence back, but it’s still so [01:05:15] scary. It is still scary.

Payman Langroudi: Listening to you. My, my first instinct is someone [01:05:20] like you who’s comfortable with flaps and all of that. Mhm. Implants, man. [01:05:25] Learn implants. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And a lot of people have told me that.

Payman Langroudi: And implants, man. I mean, [01:05:30] like, like super accelerated implants. Like, like make that the number one goal for the next [01:05:35] five years. Yeah. Yeah. Now, listen, you don’t have to do.

Sina Gilannejad: No, no, no.

Payman Langroudi: Go. [01:05:40] Go into endo. Yeah. Go into endo. Yeah, yeah. Like make that the number one. Yeah. For the next five years [01:05:45] or whatever. But someone like you who’s very super comfortable with blood and and oral [01:05:50] surgery, you’re already sort of.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re [01:05:55] not. I got the basics. I got halfway there. Yeah. You’ve got the basics.

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve known my anatomy. Like you said. I know how [01:06:00] to stop things when they go wrong. And and all my consultants were saying the same thing. They said, you know, you’re the [01:06:05] person that should be doing implants. You know, you’ve done the max stock’s trading. If you [01:06:10] just do the chorus then that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Like why are you all in on implants.

Sina Gilannejad: I should and you [01:06:15] know what?

Payman Langroudi: I’m stopping you.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I like implants, I just.

Payman Langroudi: What do you.

Sina Gilannejad: Mean I don’t know. I, I. [01:06:20]

Payman Langroudi: Listen, I don’t like implants and I do like, uh, what, what? [01:06:25]

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know, that’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what.

Sina Gilannejad: I that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Not. Listen, you like whatever you’re very [01:06:30] good at. Yeah, yeah. You don’t like implants because you don’t have implants. Yeah, but you’re nowhere [01:06:35] near like you. That that same, that same sort of, um, you know, they say do difficult [01:06:40] things and comfort zone. That same comfort zone that you jumped out of to do your oral surgery [01:06:45] is now implants and you have to like implants is such a big subject [01:06:50] here that you have to keep on doing that, keep on doing that. Five years, not really [01:06:55] very long. No, no. Yeah. But accelerate like like go all in, [01:07:00] go all in on it.

Sina Gilannejad: That makes sense. And obviously I.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever you go all in on, you’ll enjoy. Yeah, [01:07:05] yeah. And implants happen to be something that like, make a massive difference to people’s [01:07:10] lives. Yeah. Yeah. There aren’t enough implantologists in the.

Sina Gilannejad: Uk, and it’s becoming more of an expectation [01:07:15] that every dentist should or every practice at least should have someone that does implants.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:07:20]

Sina Gilannejad: So yeah.

Payman Langroudi: There’s massive cash in it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I, what I, what I do worry [01:07:25] about for implantologists is the risks are high. Yeah. And, and someone like you who [01:07:30] suffers anxiety with risk. But you’ve been, you’ve been through that with oral surgery. Yeah. But but [01:07:35] but the risks are high. I mean, that’s.

Sina Gilannejad: What I’m worried.

Payman Langroudi: About. The next day you’ve got a big case. [01:07:40] Yeah. Tonight you can’t sleep late. Stuff like stuff like [01:07:45] that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. But in saying that, like booking myself impacted wisdom teeth still gives [01:07:50] me the same, like maybe some of the sun. Yeah. The thrill. Now it’s a thrill rather than an anxiety. [01:07:55] And I can’t sleep the night before. And the more I do, the more I sleep, so I know I can get through it. So it [01:08:00] is definitely something I should think is the next step.

Payman Langroudi: But for someone like you, someone who’s been through the steps you’ve been [01:08:05] through. Yeah. Yeah. And do you notice what I’m saying about like, I’m not telling you to go [01:08:10] manufacture implants, which is what I did.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But for someone like you. Yeah. [01:08:15] By the way, do anything but do dive heavily, deeply [01:08:20] into 100 practices. If you want to do that and dive deeply into [01:08:25] perio, if you want to do that, but dive heavily, deeply in like there’s no excuse [01:08:30] now. Yeah. You’ve done DCT. You’ve done some general practice deciding [01:08:35] which one of these you like or not. Come on man.

Sina Gilannejad: I think that’s exactly [01:08:40] the point that I’m at. I’m. Pick one. I’m scared. I’m scared of the commitment. And and that’s. And that’s honestly [01:08:45] the truth.

Payman Langroudi: But you’re not scared of committing. You just got married. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That’s the easiest decision [01:08:50] I’ve ever made.

Payman Langroudi: Old. Were you when you got married?

Sina Gilannejad: I was, I, uh, last year. Last year, 27. [01:08:55] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Young. Young.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think especially in this day and age, definitely [01:09:00] young.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t some of your friends or parents or whatever tell you, hey, bit young?

Sina Gilannejad: Well, my friends in Northern [01:09:05] Ireland, you either get pregnant at 16 or then you get married at 20. You know something? [01:09:10] So, um, it’s all about, uh, relatively, isn’t [01:09:15] it? But, um, they when when [01:09:20] you marry the person that I did, as soon as they met her, they understood.

Payman Langroudi: I love you, [01:09:25] I love you, I get it, I get it, but, but what I’m after [01:09:30] is like the I remember getting married. Yeah. I remember thinking it’s a big step. [01:09:35] It’s a big, big step.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, yeah. Massive.

Payman Langroudi: You know, not not I don’t mean the wedding. [01:09:40] No being married.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Big step. And I was on this like delay as long as possible [01:09:45] moment in my life. But but you seem to like the opposite. Like jump in, [01:09:50] I think.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. I think I’m an all [01:09:55] or nothing person. And I think that, like you were saying, it’s a benefit and it’s a it’s a big negative as well. Um, [01:10:00] it means that right now I, I need to go all in or nothing into something. Implants make sense, but I’m like, well, [01:10:05] what if what if I can’t do this stuff anymore? But but I’m very much going towards what [01:10:10] you said for sure. And it’s been heavy on my mind. But when it comes to marrying [01:10:15] man, I don’t know if she’s gonna kill me for talking about it so much, but it was such an [01:10:20] easy decision. Like she understood me instantly as [01:10:25] a person and understood things about me that I didn’t understand about myself.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And [01:10:30] and aside from that, the people that she’s brought into my life, her friends, [01:10:35] her family has only been even better. Uh, [01:10:40] you know, I probably would have never met you. That’s true for her. And, um, you know, [01:10:45] her, her, all her immediate friends, her closest friends are now my friends. Um, [01:10:50] and it, it was an easy decision to make, and it was very quick [01:10:55] to see that it was the right decision. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about going [01:11:00] forward.

Sina Gilannejad: Going forward, it’s a scary topic. That’s the thing I’m most scared about.

Payman Langroudi: Do [01:11:05] you want kids?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, eventually.

Payman Langroudi: Do you want to maybe [01:11:10] open a practice? Like there’s two of you two dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m scared to open a practice [01:11:15] because.

Payman Langroudi: It might make sense to dentists.

Sina Gilannejad: It makes so much sense, and. But I don’t know. Is [01:11:20] the money there? Is it as profitable as it used to be? A lot of people say it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: Not not like it [01:11:25] used to be.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. Well, nothing’s really as profitable, is it. That’s true. But if it’s profitable, fine. But my [01:11:30] biggest concern is that I really enjoy or the kind of [01:11:35] person I am. Everything that I’ve said so far, a 9 to 5 suits me really well, because at 5:00, [01:11:40] I shut off. I don’t have to worry about anything else. I’ve got patients the next day.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:11:45] the thing is, you could you could land on your feet. I mean, there are some practices where the associates [01:11:50] are just so super happy, so super happy. It’s possible. But the best way, [01:11:55] the best execution of of the long term associate is what we call the super [01:12:00] associate, right? And the super associate comes with a bunch of Instagram like [01:12:05] marketing.

Sina Gilannejad: So loads of places are looking for how many followers you have now. Yeah, that’s a requirement [01:12:10] that’s on your marketing.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s a real thing. Because if you, if you can, if you can bring the patience [01:12:15] because you’re marketing so good. Yeah. Then you can walk into any practice.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100% and they’ll make room [01:12:20] for you.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely. And it makes sense for them to make room for you. And you can negotiate terms and all that. And [01:12:25] that’s one of the best lies in the whole wide world. Yeah. Of course it means learning Instagram. Yeah. And [01:12:30] you need to like with that. If you’re saying that’s the guy you want to be the long term [01:12:35] associate, you need to look at Instagram, social media as [01:12:40] a skill, just like you look at, you know, wisdom teeth as a skill.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. And that’s the biggest I’ve [01:12:45] been so busy with the max factor, with the marriage, with settling into.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve been busy. [01:12:50]

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve been busy, man. We’ve been talking about it. Well, we were coming. We were we were trying to have this discussion [01:12:55] two years ago. That’s right, that’s right. And finally made some space for it. Even though I was [01:13:00] trying the whole time and, um, I, I, I want [01:13:05] a, we all want a full life and I don’t want to be stuck in work the [01:13:10] whole time. So I want to invest in, uh, probably, like you said, narrow my clinical [01:13:15] field of practice, invest in something else that can make money whilst I’m [01:13:20] not there and, and have that form.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of thing is that?

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: I have because [01:13:25] it’s the worst thing about being a dentist. Yeah. There’s many good things about being a dentist, but the worst thing [01:13:30] about being a dentist is that you kind of you can’t you can’t sort of be sit in Bali and [01:13:35] be and be a dentist.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What are you thinking about [01:13:40] that? Have you thought anything about that?

Sina Gilannejad: I’ve thought of anything and everything, and a lot of it has been like [01:13:45] social media based and the platform I loved the podcast I did with Adam. [01:13:50] I, it just, it was so hard to fit it in with everything else. And it’s still hard. I’m not [01:13:55] saying my life’s got any quieter? I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Just wait till you have kids, man. [01:14:00] That’ll change. That’ll change the game.

Sina Gilannejad: What you think? Get even busier.

Payman Langroudi: Much busier.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, I can’t. [01:14:05] I can barely do this, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, when you’ve had. Let’s say you’ve got two kids. Yeah. [01:14:10] How many friends do the two kids have? Yeah, generally. Yeah. They’re [01:14:15] in a class of 15 kids. Yeah. Yeah. Then that those 15 kids have [01:14:20] birthdays? Yeah. That’s 30 birthdays a year.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t like [01:14:25] this math.

Payman Langroudi: 30 birthdays a year that you have to attend. Yeah. And sometimes [01:14:30] on the same weekend, Manitoba will be with one kid at a birthday. And you’ll be with a different kid at a different [01:14:35] birthday where you don’t know one. Yeah. That’s just the birthdays. That’s. That’s [01:14:40] 30 out of 52 weekends. You’re at a birthday party? Yeah. Let alone everything else. [01:14:45] It’s hard. Yeah. It’s hard. By the way, it’s amazing also.

Sina Gilannejad: And that’s what I’ve heard also. And [01:14:50] you know what, Max? Fax again. I’ll I’m sure like my [01:14:55] nurses and everyone’s so sick of me talking about it to them or to patients. But it was life [01:15:00] changing. I was so scared of doing the wrong thing.

Payman Langroudi: Just made him out of you, [01:15:05] huh? Huh? It honestly did.

Sina Gilannejad: It did. And and, you know, like people. What? [01:15:10] Like people are scared for Max for the on call, but you everyone gets used [01:15:15] to it if you don’t leave. All right? And and you end [01:15:20] up with this confidence of that. Okay. What is the worst thing that can happen in a practice? [01:15:25] Someone has a heart attack. Cpr when you work in a hospital long enough, you know, in hospital CPR rates, [01:15:30] you know, if you give someone CPR, they’re most likely going to die in a practice way more likely to die [01:15:35] on the street, probably dead. So you know that actually the worst case scenario, you’re doing the best thing you can do, like you’ve seen it. [01:15:40] So that’s nice. The other worst thing that they’ll bleed, you can stop the bleeding now. If you can’t, it’s something [01:15:45] crazy. And then the hospital again, you’ve done what you can. So and then all of a sudden. It [01:15:50] it it it puts you face to [01:15:55] face with humanity. And that’s all because there are people that have been stripped bare. They’ve [01:16:00] got cancer. You’re seeing them as a what was I like [01:16:05] a two, three year old qualified dentist. And I thought the worst [01:16:10] thing would be to tell a patient, oh, you’ve.

Sina Gilannejad: I’m sorry, but this is [01:16:15] cancer. You’ve got cancer. And the worst thing actually, by far [01:16:20] was sitting there and I cried so much last year and my [01:16:25] mum and my wife said the general concern, rightful concern, saying are you sure this is for you [01:16:30] because you’re very emotional, soft. At the end of the day, this this is going to hit you really hard. And I said, I, [01:16:35] I need, I need to to feel it. And [01:16:40] I felt it. And, and I was sitting there and the daughter [01:16:45] of this patient, the patient, she had tumour after [01:16:50] tumour, cancer after cancer in her the mouth. There was nothing left to cut. And so at one [01:16:55] point the consultant and he was a Mr.. Or is is is his name. He was [01:17:00] Northern Irish as well. Bless him. So was a, you know, piece of home. And he’s one [01:17:05] of the best men I’ve ever met and one of the best surgeons I’ll ever meet. And [01:17:10] he said to her, and he had an amazing way of communication. And my communication is talking enough until [01:17:15] I’ve said the right thing. His communication was always saying the right thing.

Payman Langroudi: On point.

Sina Gilannejad: On point, [01:17:20] and leaving the silence for the conversation to continue. And he said to this patient, he said, she [01:17:25] said, first, I don’t know if I can do any more. I don’t know if I can have [01:17:30] any more treatment. And he said, I don’t know if I can do any more treatment for you either. [01:17:35] I don’t want to cut you anymore. And then and then he went, [01:17:40] and I was there with her and her daughter and her daughter’s sobbing in tears. And she looks at [01:17:45] me like, look, I get it. Like on the way here, we already came to terms with [01:17:50] the decision. And we know like, this is it. She’s going to die. We know. [01:17:55] We don’t know when she’s going to die, but can you tell me how she’s going to die? And [01:18:00] I looked the mom was she she made her peace, [01:18:05] but the daughter hadn’t understandably. And looking [01:18:10] into her eyes and. And I said to her, I said, look, I, I, [01:18:15] I don’t know if I can describe that for you. I don’t think it’s [01:18:20] fair. And she said, I understand, just please, I need to [01:18:25] know. And sitting there and looking at her and saying, well, there’s so many different ways. If [01:18:30] you’re lucky, your, your mom will just waste away and just lights [01:18:35] go off. Or the [01:18:40] tumour will block her windpipe and she’ll suffocate or she’ll have the [01:18:45] tumour will eat away at one of the major arteries and bleed everywhere. And that [01:18:50] was I. God, I couldn’t stop crying that day. And the next day I just sat with the [01:18:55] consultant outside and we had a little four year that we had. It was a lovely sunny day in [01:19:00] Chesterfield. And, and I just, and I just, I just asked him, I was like, I just felt like I was going crazy.

Sina Gilannejad: And I said, there’s [01:19:05] this job just ever get too much for you? And he just looked at me and he was like, man, [01:19:10] I’m like, my patients die. Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s so much. But you [01:19:15] know, I’ve got to remember the ones that I can help and that I have helped. And even those that died, [01:19:20] I helped them along the way. And, uh, and at that point, I was like, that [01:19:25] kind of me being so worried about a stupid crime prep just doesn’t matter anymore. And [01:19:30] at that point, that was it. Then I got married and I said, this is all I want to focus on. I just, you know, anything [01:19:35] else can come. And I need to remind myself so many times of just thinking of that story again, has reminded [01:19:40] me all these stresses and stuff that I have about going forward and what am I going to do? And this was like, at least I, I’ve, I’ve [01:19:45] got a life. My parents worked so hard to let me [01:19:50] do dentistry. You know, they didn’t have any chances to do it. They gave me the chance. I got to do it. [01:19:55] I’m living in London, uh, in a city where so [01:20:00] many people across the world want to come and live. And I’m saying, oh, the rent is high and this [01:20:05] and that, but I’m here, I’m living, and I’m paying the rent. And and I’m so grateful. So [01:20:10] it’s nice to take a step back and just take the pressure off myself in terms of what’s to come next. [01:20:15] But that’s why I think positive or negative, [01:20:20] Max will have such a, a strong impact [01:20:25] on you for the better.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a deep cut. It’s a deep cut, deep [01:20:30] cut. But thanks for sharing that man. That must can’t have been easy to.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, man. But you’ve [01:20:35] been there as well. You know it as well. It’s it’s these these final moments when people [01:20:40] have nothing. You realise actually what’s actually important.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:20:45] met my first night of Maxfacts. [01:20:50] The patient passed away. Jeez. They operated on that day. Jeez. And [01:20:55] it was a new consultant as well. So he, you know, he had that nightmare [01:21:00] and I, I, I didn’t it was my first night. [01:21:05] I had no idea what to do next. I was a dental student and first night [01:21:10] and I didn’t write it in the notes because I didn’t know I was a patient [01:21:15] died.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: The next day. The next day, consultant said, right, give give me the [01:21:20] notes. And obviously he was having a hard day himself. Right. He just arrived. It was like the first operation [01:21:25] he’d done. And he goes, it’s not in the notes. The patient passed [01:21:30] away.

Sina Gilannejad: I thought you knew.

Payman Langroudi: Who was on call. I was like, sticking [01:21:35] my hand and he screamed through [01:21:40] the notes, and I can’t blame him. Right? But that was my first night. It [01:21:45] was hard, but.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s not something you would think like first.

Payman Langroudi: Like you.

Sina Gilannejad: Said. Yeah, like surely [01:21:50] you haven’t record the Fish is dead. Why do I have to say in the notes like patient is not moving when I poke them? Yeah. But [01:21:55] yeah, man, that’s the so the future is probably [01:22:00] at another crossroads.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part.

Sina Gilannejad: That wasn’t the dark part.

Payman Langroudi: The dark. [01:22:05]

Sina Gilannejad: Part.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, the dark part of this pod is around errors. Mistakes?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What mistakes [01:22:10] have you made and what, what can we all learn from your mistakes? From black box thinking. [01:22:15] You know about black box thinking. No I don’t. Black box thing is about plane crashes. Oh, compared [01:22:20] to medical errors where planes crash, they discuss, they find out what happened [01:22:25] in the black box. Then they tell the whole pilot community what happened. So everyone learns. Whereas [01:22:30] in medical we’re trying to find who was at fault. And so for that reason, we all hide [01:22:35] our mistakes. Yeah. So we never learn from each other’s mistakes. And even though I [01:22:40] acknowledged that in the end, you learn from your own mistakes because they they they strike [01:22:45] deeper. Yeah. To buck that trend. I want you to sort of come up with errors you’ve [01:22:50] made that the rest of us can learn from. So so so I don’t want a one day I dropped something [01:22:55] and yeah, you know.

Sina Gilannejad: I, I’ll give you two things. I’ll give you a clinical one and, [01:23:00] uh.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, cool.

Sina Gilannejad: Look one. Yeah. First the outlook one. And [01:23:05] I’m sure everyone knows this, but doesn’t practice it. Do not put [01:23:10] your self worth into a tooth. It’s so unpredictable, so interesting. [01:23:15] It’s so unpredictable. And honestly, like, it sounds stupid saying it, but if you’ve done [01:23:20] a deep filling, that tooth loses vitality. Uh, so many of us and me, [01:23:25] I was like, oh, well, that is, um, that means I’m a bad dentist, which means I’m a bad person. That was [01:23:30] it. And it sounds so stupid to say that’s one thing. Do not put your self worth in this. I was [01:23:35] going to say in this job, but obviously you can be proud of who you are and as you should be. You work very hard to get [01:23:40] here. But do not put your self-worth.

Payman Langroudi: Self-worth only in this job.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, 100%. [01:23:45] Do not do that. Biggest clinical mistake. I’m [01:23:50] trying to think of which one to tell you. I’ve made many, [01:23:55] as we all have. And that’s what happens whenever you step out of the comfort zone. [01:24:00] Um, I think I would have to be, uh, [01:24:05] drilling the cheek. Oh, yeah. So, um, if you’re doing a surgical extraction [01:24:10] or just drilling weight, it’s very easy to get super focussed [01:24:15] on the tip of your drill and not remember what’s around you. And then all of a sudden you got a big buccal fat pad [01:24:20] just wrapping its way around your drill.

Payman Langroudi: Loads of bleeding.

Sina Gilannejad: Lots [01:24:25] of bleeding. If you’re lucky enough, the drill is going fast enough. It cauterises at the same moment. So you’ve done a little gingivectomy [01:24:30] of the well, you’ve got buccal mucosa. Ectomy. Yeah. Um, so that’s not good. [01:24:35] So be aware of your surroundings. For example, if you’re doing a surgical for the first [01:24:40] time, don’t do it with your lips on. You might have used your lips for donkeys, but you’re still not going [01:24:45] to see that cheek.

Payman Langroudi: That’s for this reason, your field of view.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. For this reason. And another main [01:24:50] one is and again, done it. And I’ve had friends that have done it. Many people will keep doing [01:24:55] it. Uh, just be careful of the floor of the mouth because someone will swallow it comes up, wraps around [01:25:00] you. That really wraps around your bro. You can’t cauterise that one. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I like it, but not a lot. [01:25:05] What the the the error.

Sina Gilannejad: Okay, let me think what you want something worse.

Payman Langroudi: Just more, uh, [01:25:10] worse or better. I like it, but not a lot. Okay.

Sina Gilannejad: Fine. Uh, [01:25:15] in a hospital setting.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, saw a patient. They had a swelling. I [01:25:20] forgot to look at the background and forgot that this was a hospital. And [01:25:25] the swelling doesn’t always just mean antibiotics. You got to do bloods, you got to check, and you got to check for signs of sepsis and things like that, [01:25:30] which I didn’t do. And then the patient came back two days later in A&E on a drip [01:25:35] or on the verge of not having sepsis, so that was really [01:25:40] bad. Overlooked a lot of signs and the learning outcome [01:25:45] there was just calm down. Remember your environment and [01:25:50] just if you have a set protocol to look at for each patient, you [01:25:55] won’t forget it. And that is a massive thing that actually in the dental community we’re taught by [01:26:00] pilots, aren’t we? Yeah. A lot more of them are coming and teaching us, uh, this, uh, root [01:26:05] cause analysis and how to set up protocols so you do not make the same mistake. And [01:26:10] one of the most common mistakes we get is what leads to sharps injuries is that you treat the [01:26:15] patient and you see the patient has a, what a, let’s say a blood marker like HIV. [01:26:20] And then all of a sudden, because you’ve seen that you start acting differently. That is the main reason why protocols exist. Protocols [01:26:25] exist so that you’re acting the same way for every patient as you would for that patient. But then you start doing [01:26:30] that for every other patient, and then all of a sudden you see a positive patient and you start acting differently. And [01:26:35] all of a sudden the needle is not where you usually left it and you didn’t know, you always left it there, but you’ve done something different [01:26:40] and then you get a sharps injury that is so common. I’ve seen that so many times. [01:26:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I like that one more. I like that one more. What comes to mind if I say, what’s your [01:26:50] favourite lecture or lecture that really stood out for you?

Sina Gilannejad: Is [01:26:55] it is it bad to say one that I did?

Payman Langroudi: I probably [01:27:00] won’t accept it, but go on. Fair enough. Go on. No, no, but go on.

Sina Gilannejad: I did a lecture in Cardiff. I did [01:27:05] two lectures. I did one for oral medicine and it was an absolute intensive lecture [01:27:10] of all the stuff, uh, in oral medicine that’s going to be on the exams.

Payman Langroudi: For [01:27:15] the students.

Sina Gilannejad: For the students. Yeah. And it was, it [01:27:20] was I’d done teaching before that, but after I did that, I left and I felt I [01:27:25] could do this for the rest of my life. I absolutely love that. The thrill of [01:27:30] just the public speaking, The. The anxiety of [01:27:35] it became the thrill of it and the, you know, the absolute attention I had of everyone [01:27:40] and being in their place. So when they asked a question, I was like, oh, let me explain it to you in a way that I [01:27:45] understood it, to see if you understood it that way and the feedback you get from that and that it thankfully went well. [01:27:50] And it was my first.

Payman Langroudi: Teachings, great teachings. Great. The problem with teaching is it’s difficult [01:27:55] to make money teaching. Yeah. It’s, you know, as a career. Um, [01:28:00] but it’s great man. Um, by the way, you can make loads of money [01:28:05] teaching if you play it right. If you, if yeah, if you’re amazing.

Sina Gilannejad: Sell of.

Payman Langroudi: Course, but it’s [01:28:10] tough. It’s not easy. It’s much easier making money doing dentistry than, than teaching teaching.

Sina Gilannejad: Then that’s [01:28:15] the thing I kept finding. There’s actually all these loopholes to find so much easier just to do dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:28:20] about what stands out to you? Like the best lecture you went to?

Sina Gilannejad: Best lecture.

Payman Langroudi: I went to one that [01:28:25] stands out to you, one that inspired you, maybe.

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, [01:28:30] inspired me was the one that inspired me to do Max. [01:28:35] Max. I was at a conference. Uh, it was a Welsh [01:28:40] hospitals, all Wales hospitals. Something was called. I can’t remember what it was. It was all the Welsh hospitals. [01:28:45] And they were showing um, a case where basically [01:28:50] it was a cancer in the base of the tongue. So if you’ve got a really bad cancer base of the tongue, you either [01:28:55] have to do a subtotal or total glossectomy, which effectively means cut out part of the tongue [01:29:00] or all of the tongue. Grim. You can, you can already think of the massive [01:29:05] impact to your life. You can’t talk, you can’t eat. You can’t swallow properly. [01:29:10] Hell, just losing your voice alone, you know, it’s like a little mermaid. Except [01:29:15] so much worse. And, um, the surgery, you’d have to get that rather than [01:29:20] going into the mouth and cutting it out, you’d actually have to go underneath, drop everything, cut [01:29:25] it out, stitch it back up. So that was extremely invasive in itself, even though you’ve taken the tongue out. Um, [01:29:30] but actually this one was the innovations that we’re having. And it was a little robot that can go to the back of the tongue [01:29:35] and laser it off, which was pretty cool, but that just kickstarted the, [01:29:40] the whole like.

Payman Langroudi: Fascination.

Sina Gilannejad: Fascination towards Max Fox that.

Payman Langroudi: And who gave that lecture? [01:29:45] Do you remember?

Sina Gilannejad: It was she was a lead [01:29:50] consultant in Scotland, maybe Glasgow, and she was a fantastic [01:29:55] speaker.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t know her name.

Sina Gilannejad: No, I don’t know her name. I’m not good with names, but [01:30:00] I remember her face. She was fantastic. Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Did you love Cardiff, by the way?

Sina Gilannejad: I loved. [01:30:05]

Payman Langroudi: It.

Sina Gilannejad: Such a good city. I’ve been so lucky, you know, being [01:30:10] in Bristol, then Manchester, then Cardiff. Bristol.

Payman Langroudi: Good places.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, Cardiff. So [01:30:15] good. The people are so lovely. Amazing, amazing. The patients are amazing. The clinicians [01:30:20] are amazing. The. I love the accent.

Payman Langroudi: I think that whole thing about the way you said in Northern Ireland, everyone [01:30:25] wants to talk to you. Yeah. Same same in Cardiff.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. You go for a walk. You’re going to have a conversation, [01:30:30] a 30 minute conversation. And it’s it’s amazing, I loved it. I made such [01:30:35] good friends in Cardiff, which was a massive, again, part of my healing process because it was so social. [01:30:40] We had, we had tons of so in, in, in Maxfax I was one of two ducts, [01:30:45] whereas in Cardiff I was one of, I think like 15 plus and we were all friends. We were all friends, had [01:30:50] a great time and you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, there’s a, there’s a size of city that, that is so fun [01:30:55] because the size of city that Cardiff or Bristol are Manchester obviously bigger, but Cardiff [01:31:00] and Bristol are. You can pretty much get everything. Yeah. It’s compressed. Let’s [01:31:05] say one day you want, I don’t know, Wagyu steak.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You can pretty much [01:31:10] find wagyu steak in Cardiff or Bristol or you are, I don’t know whatever [01:31:15] it is. Yeah. Yeah. You can find pretty much. Oh I don’t know. You want to go to a concert. [01:31:20] Oh yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: That was good Theatre.

Payman Langroudi: Stadium they’ve got there. Or you want to go to a sports thing. Yeah, [01:31:25] there is all that. But then it’s also small enough that parking [01:31:30] and traffic and all of that isn’t a big deal. But what I loved [01:31:35] about it, especially as a student, was you keep bumping into people [01:31:40] in the street.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which never happens in London. No, no. If you bump into someone, it’s like, let’s [01:31:45] have lunch or something.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s crazy because you bump into someone in London, you’re like, this world is tiny. [01:31:50] But like you said, it’s a normal occurrence in Bristol, Cardiff and things like that. And Cardiff, like you said, [01:31:55] I went to the theatre, I went to the Six Nations rugby games. Cardiff [01:32:00] has for some reason, the one of the best sushi restaurants I’ve ever been at. I love the sushi, everything. [01:32:05] It’s got everything.

Payman Langroudi: Like, uh, AP watch. Like you want to buy a [01:32:10] £100,000 watch. You can buy it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah, it’s everywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Like it didn’t, by [01:32:15] the way, when I was there, it didn’t have that.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, yeah. Different times. Yeah. [01:32:20] But I love Cardiff and it would definitely suck leaving there. I [01:32:25] had a really good time. Sheffield. Great place as well.

Payman Langroudi: Big student city right.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive student [01:32:30] city. Very even more students. Way more. Way more surprisingly. So it’s got like a really [01:32:35] old miners like actually like they were mining community. So [01:32:40] your whole, you know, Sheffield Steel, you hear all about stuff that obviously that’s not nationalised anymore because that would make too much [01:32:45] sense. Yeah. They sell that all abroad and, and, and then there’s no in between. [01:32:50] And then there’s students. There’s tons of them.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a big population there as well. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: It’s massive. You [01:32:55] don’t realise it feels small.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Because the city centre is pretty small.

Payman Langroudi: Really small. We got this [01:33:00] map. It was like a map that supermarkets use to figure out where to put the next supermarket. [01:33:05] Oh, cool. Because we were putting, um, we have this thing called regional centre of Excellence [01:33:10] one per region. Ah. And we were trying to figure out what is a region. And then [01:33:15] so it’s a population density map, right. And Sheffield’s got the two places [01:33:20] that surprised the hell out of me. Sheffield and Leicester.

Sina Gilannejad: Really interesting.

Payman Langroudi: Population density. [01:33:25]

Sina Gilannejad: Interesting.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s like some I knew about Glasgow, for instance. Like it’s not Edinburgh, Glasgow, [01:33:30] Glasgow where the population is. But I kind of knew that. But I didn’t know Sheffield and Leicester had such [01:33:35] huge population density like that either.

Sina Gilannejad: But and you don’t feel it when you’re there. You’re not in like massive [01:33:40] obviously just traffic in every city. It’s not crazy in.

Payman Langroudi: The the area. [01:33:45] It’s not just exactly.

Sina Gilannejad: There’s actually a big outskirts to it. And obviously then you’ve got like the peaks [01:33:50] and everything like that. And that’s another.

Payman Langroudi: Super.

Sina Gilannejad: Beautiful, gorgeous place. Honestly, if [01:33:55] you want to be proud of where you live, you got to go there where the peaks are and everything, not where all [01:34:00] the flags are in the cities.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite resource to [01:34:05] learn about dentistry? Is there a book? Is there a website? Is there a Instagram page, [01:34:10] a YouTube channel?

Sina Gilannejad: I enjoy all the series of the [01:34:15] The Good Clinicians Guide. Was it the good practitioners? They’ve got loads of those things like the Good Practitioners [01:34:20] Guide to Prosthetics, to end though. It’s got all those. They were amazing. And they’re all.

Payman Langroudi: What is that?

Sina Gilannejad: Books. [01:34:25] They’re all books. They’re all books and they’re all available. Uh, it’s not a sponsor. Um, but they’re on the BDA [01:34:30] library. A lot of people have a BDA membership, so they’re all in the library digital and it breaks things [01:34:35] so well, um, for a student dentistry in nutshell was fantastic. Um, [01:34:40] I didn’t use it, I didn’t buy it because I was so broke, even though it was a reasonable price, unbelievably [01:34:45] broke. But um, I used my friends and it was such a good resource and something I [01:34:50] really love and I’m trying to remember the name of it. It was a book that had hundreds of cases. [01:34:55] It’s like Cornell’s or something. I need to find that and [01:35:00] put it in because it’s so good. It literally each, each, every two pages is [01:35:05] a case. And it could be oral med oral surgery, uh, restorative. It was so good [01:35:10] to test yourself because when it comes to finals, the units are just going to test you to see if you’re a safe dentist, if you [01:35:15] can look at this and pick out the important things. And that was perfect for that. It would you would look at the case. It would [01:35:20] give you all the information on the pictures and then it would tell you, um, how to break it down [01:35:25] and what all the things were and then how to treatment plan it. So good. That was fantastic.

Payman Langroudi: What [01:35:30] about doing DCT? Did they pay for you to go on courses?

Sina Gilannejad: Oh, DCT [01:35:35] another reason if you want to go on DCT is the amount of free courses [01:35:40] you go on. So um, first of all in Cardiff. So it changes as you [01:35:45] go up these days you tend to do less study days in DCT one most not I think it’s like [01:35:50] 50 that you’ve got loads of study days made for you. Cardiff was phenomenal for that. [01:35:55] We had only consultants teaching us and they like it was intensive [01:36:00] days. For each week we’d have intensive day of just a full lecture on this, that and whatever.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:36:05] they made their own sort of they made their own.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely. They made their own curriculum. Oh, interesting. And it was fantastic. We [01:36:10] learned everything from the best people and that was great. And then you get a study budget as well, not a DCT [01:36:15] one because they put oh well in Cardiff anyway. Sorry because they put so many programs on. You only had a small [01:36:20] budget, but I got to use it to fly to. Was it. Where did it go? Glasgow, I think it was Glasgow. [01:36:25] I went for an oral medicine conference and got to do it. Loads of people went to restorative conferences, [01:36:30] oral surgery, all that. Um in DC D two, I got fully funded to do [01:36:35] my sedation training and most DC places will do that for you. Even if you [01:36:40] take up a community job, they’ll probably pay it for you. And that’s like, it’s not cheap. It’s like well over a thousand. [01:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: And a great thing to have under your belt for.

Sina Gilannejad: Massive thing. And then, and well, the thing.

Payman Langroudi: That’s got you the job in. [01:36:50] Yeah, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the course itself is fine. Yeah. It’s expensive [01:36:55] 2000 something. But then if you don’t have a hospital setting to, uh, or a mentor [01:37:00] to actually do the cases, you need to get qualified, that becomes quite expensive very quickly if you’ve got to pay [01:37:05] the course provider to do those cases. So yeah, you get loads out of it in that. [01:37:10] And it’s, it’s only one two year. If you did the first year, you don’t like it, don’t do it again.

Payman Langroudi: If there was if there was no [01:37:15] time or money Constraints. Firstly, what course would you jump [01:37:20] straight into?

Sina Gilannejad: Uh, I do the, uh, the London Oral surgeons [01:37:25] extraction courses. He does, uh, normal ones and uh, as [01:37:30] a normal teeth and wisdom teeth, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Is that his Instagram name? The London. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: London [01:37:35] oral surgeon in insane quality, insane. Like he take [01:37:40] the clinical photos he takes of each stage of like a surgical extraction is [01:37:45] insane. I’m like, where’s the blood? Where’s it gone? And it’s so beautiful. And I can’t even well, I can [01:37:50] now, but I struggle to take a good anterior photograph. And he’s all the way in the back of the [01:37:55] mouth there taking his beautiful photos. So I’d, I’d do that.

Payman Langroudi: I do he’s got a [01:38:00] course. Does he.

Sina Gilannejad: He does. Yes. Yeah. He has got, he’s got courses. Um I think they’re all fully booked now. [01:38:05] Um I do that do implants. If money wasn’t an issue for sure implants would be [01:38:10] done by now. Um and then I would It really [01:38:15] get into the digital side of dentistry. I really would like [01:38:20] to have, um, to, to know and learn how to use [01:38:25] the software to like model all these things to do provisionals, things like that. And then [01:38:30] the 3D printer to print whatever I want, like exocad. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: And then I’d probably make some [01:38:35] grills I sell.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s good man. That’s just [01:38:40] a lot of skills you want. Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Maybe money and motivation to [01:38:45] actually implement everything that I’ve learned.

Payman Langroudi: Final questions please. Fantasy [01:38:50] dinner party.

Sina Gilannejad: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests, three guests. [01:38:55] Dead or alive.

Sina Gilannejad: Ooh. Uh, I mean, I’m [01:39:00] always gonna. There’s always going to be a cop out, but I would, uh, my [01:39:05] granny that’s in Iran, she’d be with me.

Payman Langroudi: That [01:39:10] your mum’s mum?

Sina Gilannejad: Mum, mum, mum! My mum’s mum. I’d [01:39:15] have her with me and she’s alive, thankfully. But I just don’t know when, if ever, [01:39:20] I’m gonna see her again. Uh. Neil [01:39:25] deGrasse Tyson.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I love [01:39:30] that astronomer guy.

Sina Gilannejad: I just love the passion that he speaks about space. That’s why [01:39:35] I did physics. I love the idea of space. The idea of there was this, uh, quote that he had. [01:39:40] He was like, someone asked him, what’s the, like the scariest thing about [01:39:45] space and what’s the best thing about space? And he was like, it’s the same thing. He said, we’re all made out of the same atoms, [01:39:50] um, as the stars. We’re all made out of carbon. Um, well, [01:39:55] carbon, nitrogen, oxygen. Um, and I’m missing one as well. Um, and [01:40:00] that means we’re all so alike, but at the same time, we’re the same material as stars that are [01:40:05] billions and billions and billions of light years away. We’re so insignificant. We’re [01:40:10] just the same as that little speck that’s over there. And that was a very comforting fact [01:40:15] because I was like, ah, this is such a tiny little planet. The grand scheme [01:40:20] of things, things don’t really matter.

Payman Langroudi: You know?

Sina Gilannejad: And I needed to feel that. So that’s two. And [01:40:25] the last one, dead or alive? Oh, [01:40:30] I probably do like something crazy, like a conspiracy theory to [01:40:35] find out, like what actually happened.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Sina Gilannejad: So, you know, something crazy. [01:40:40] Like, if I don’t know, is it bad to say, like Madeleine McCann? That’s [01:40:45] what I know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, herself.

Sina Gilannejad: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: Like [01:40:50] what happened?

Payman Langroudi: How interesting.

Sina Gilannejad: I hope she’s okay. I’d like to [01:40:55] think that she’s okay. And she’s got a lot of money.

Payman Langroudi: And who knows? Yeah. How interesting. I never had [01:41:00] that before. Mm. How interesting. I went on a different podcast and I told you the guy [01:41:05] said, oh no, it was, it wasn’t you. The guy said, the guy said, um, where would you like [01:41:10] to be A fly on the wall. Oh, oh.

Sina Gilannejad: I don’t know if I want anymore. Like [01:41:15] knowing, like seeing all these Epstein files and everything’s came out. I’m scared to to fight.

Payman Langroudi: But where would you like to [01:41:20] be? A fly on the wall.

Sina Gilannejad: Like.

Payman Langroudi: I’d.

Sina Gilannejad: Do you know what I would like? [01:41:25] I probably would be crazy. And so the fly on the wall, I’d like to be basically [01:41:30] all those hot mic situations, like in the limousine where the celebrity just [01:41:35] gets out from the thing or like just at the press conference as they leave, I want I want to hear that the big crash out for [01:41:40] like the living reporter said this and that stuff that’s. I’d like to do that. Yeah. What [01:41:45] about you?

Payman Langroudi: I well, my answer on that show was when they when they gave [01:41:50] the order to kill JFK. Oh. Like who? Like I want to.

Sina Gilannejad: See this is what.

Payman Langroudi: I mean on that one. Like [01:41:55] in that same conspiracy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I thought, um, uh, you know, when the dinosaur [01:42:00] extinction event happened. True. Fly on the fly on the tree in. [01:42:05]

Sina Gilannejad: A very safe tree that’s still alive today. That’s true. Was it? Yeah. [01:42:10] Was it?

Payman Langroudi: What the hell went down?

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What did it look like? What it looked like. You know.

Sina Gilannejad: It’d be crazy. Yeah, that’d [01:42:15] be so true. That’d be good. But I wouldn’t have a dinosaur at the dinner party because that would be messy.

Payman Langroudi: No, that’s a different question.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:42:20]

Payman Langroudi: Final. Final question. Uh, it’s a deathbed question. It’s a bit unfair. Someone [01:42:25] as young as you.

Sina Gilannejad: Well, yeah, hopefully it’s not too.

Payman Langroudi: Soon, but on your deathbed, surrounded [01:42:30] by your loved ones.

Sina Gilannejad: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Many years from now. Three pieces of advice.

Sina Gilannejad: Three [01:42:35] pieces of advice. Um. Uh, [01:42:40] again, it’s going to be things we hear all the time, but we just don’t put into actions. It’s, it’s [01:42:45] definitely going to be like, not to take things so seriously or [01:42:50] be a perfectionist about everything. Um. I’d [01:42:55] say as well to, [01:43:00] and I get told this all the time is focus. Focus [01:43:05] on the action, not the outcome for and and [01:43:10] the biggest thing for that is, you know, just do what you enjoy and the money will come afterwards. That’s the main thing. And, and you’ve [01:43:15] just got to believe it until it happens. And again, just be careful with that because you, you keep thinking, [01:43:20] when’s the money coming? When’s it coming? And then you look around you and you realise all your spending has gone up and everything you know, you’ve not, you’ve [01:43:25] not sort of that person that the money that you want keeps going up. And obviously [01:43:30] that’s inflation in general. But you can you can control some of that. And the last thing that [01:43:35] I would say on my deathbed. It [01:43:40] wouldn’t be advice. I’d love to be on my deathbed. And just to say that I had [01:43:45] a fantastic life and, you know, don’t waste [01:43:50] after today. Don’t waste any more tears for me. I, I want you to to live happy as well. [01:43:55] And I hope you only think about like the best times that we had together. Yeah. [01:44:00]

Payman Langroudi: That’s super nice.

Sina Gilannejad: Thanks. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve had a lot of people sit over here. [01:44:05] Yeah. But, um, I think your guest 330. Nice. Yeah. Or [01:44:10] something like that. Um, but the, the thing I love about you, [01:44:15] you’ve got this authenticity, like you’re, you’re answering the question completely, [01:44:20] honestly. That’s sweet. You can see it in the, in your eyeball, you’re looking up or you’re [01:44:25] not, you know, you’re not even for a second trying to filter it. You’re just telling it.

Sina Gilannejad: Yeah. [01:44:30]

Payman Langroudi: Um, which is beautiful. It’s beautiful.

Sina Gilannejad: I take that with a lot of, of, [01:44:35] you know, I’m really grateful for that. Thank you. Payman. And that’s why we get on so well because.

Payman Langroudi: We’re a massive [01:44:40] pleasure, man. Thank you so much for doing this.

Prav Solanki: Thanks for listening, guys. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Make [01:44:45] sure you tune in for future episodes, hit subscribe in iTunes or [01:44:50] Google Play or whatever platform it is. And you know, we really, really appreciate it. If you [01:44:55] would, um, give.

Payman Langroudi: Us a six star rating.

Prav Solanki: Six star rating. That’s [01:45:00] what I always leave my Uber driver.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot, guys.

Prav Solanki: Bye.

Payman Langroudi: This podcast comes to you from enlighten. Enlighten is an advanced teeth whitening system [00:00:05] that guarantees results on every single patient. We’ve treated hundreds of thousands of patients [00:00:10] now and have a really clear understanding of what it takes to get every patient to that delighted [00:00:15] state that we want to get to. If you want to understand teeth whitening in much further detail, join [00:00:20] us for online training. Only takes an hour. Completely free. Even if you never use [00:00:25] enlighten as a whitening system, you’ll learn loads and loads about whitening, how to talk about it, [00:00:30] how to involve your teams. Join us. Enlighten online training.com.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:40] podcast where you get to go one on one with [00:00:45] emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:50] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:00:55] gives me great pleasure to welcome Megan Chard onto the podcast. Megan, I’ve [00:01:00] known you. I was thinking about it today, at least a decade since you [00:01:05] qualified. Basically, I think I knew Simon, you’re a little bit famous husband maybe two [00:01:10] years before that. I knew since he was a student. And you’ve got an even more [00:01:15] famous aunt. Um, we’ll get to that. Um, lovely [00:01:20] to have you.

Meghan Chard: Thank you for having me. It’s a privilege. And, um. Yeah, [00:01:25] I’m happy to. I’m excited to have a chat and, uh, see where things go.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:01:30] tell me, Megan, you are principal of roughly. [00:01:35] How do you say it?

Meghan Chard: I know it’s a tricky one. Yeah. I think technically it’s roughly lodge, roughly [00:01:40] Lodge. It’s basically it’s named Rothley Lodge because Simon’s parents got married in a place called [00:01:45] Rothley Lodge in, um, Quorn up in sort of the East Midlands, whatever it [00:01:50] is, Leicestershire. And so when they bought the practice they called it that. And that’s why it’s called Rothley [00:01:55] Lodge, but it’s kind of spelled Rothley Lodge, and I think no one really knows how, how it’s meant to, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:02:00] yeah, that was, that was Simon’s dad’s practice or parent’s practice. Yeah. And you guys bought that [00:02:05] in 20 1716.

Meghan Chard: That sort of eight years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And expanded. [00:02:10]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so I’m interested in all of that really. [00:02:15] So you know, your, your, your plans when, when you think back to [00:02:20] you qualified, how many years you were a dentist before you decided we’re going to [00:02:25] buy the practice? Yeah. Your plans there, all of that.

Meghan Chard: So [00:02:30] um, so Simon and I were trained together. So we’ve always sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, [00:02:35] go on. How did you meet? Go on, go on. I’ve heard it from Simon. I need to hear it from you.

Meghan Chard: Uh, so basically [00:02:40] I did the five year undergrad course and Simon did the four year [00:02:45] undergrad course. So he did pharmacology at Bristol first. So, you know, you can [00:02:50] do the, um, what’s it called? I don’t know, I can’t remember now too many years ago, but you can sort of bypass the first [00:02:55] year and coming to the second year. So that was my first year and I was like, there’s just [00:03:00] no one here for me. I’m not marrying a dentist. There’s no one here for me. I’m just gonna have a good time. [00:03:05] All good, you know, you know, whatever.

Payman Langroudi: So this is kings.

Meghan Chard: This is kings. Yeah. And so the [00:03:10] first day of the second year, um, I was, I went on the first day, didn’t make an effort, [00:03:15] you know, didn’t put my lenses in, just put my glasses on and you know, just went to the lecture just thinking [00:03:20] again, same, same crew, just first day of the second year, but [00:03:25] they did not tell us is that there’s a whole new cohort of fresh meat. And [00:03:30] I remember walking in and being like, oh my God, who are these? [00:03:35] Like, it was like, and it was like, there’s an excitement in the air. And I noticed Simon in the lecture [00:03:40] theatre, he was wearing a red hoodie and I thought, oh my God, Crikey.

Payman Langroudi: And the tallest guy in the room.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, [00:03:45] yeah, exactly. And even taller with his hair. His hair was quite spiky then. Yeah. And, [00:03:50] uh, and actually I was living in Chalk Farm at the time, so I was walking up Camden High Street and I was on the phone to my mum and I was like, oh [00:03:55] my God, mum, there are some hot people in my ear. It’s very exciting. So that’s kind of when I first sort [00:04:00] of saw him. And then that night was the truffle shuffle, which was this 80s night. So everyone got dressed [00:04:05] up. I looked like I’d fallen into a bag of clothes, like brightly coloured clothes. And we started [00:04:10] talking and we both liked electro music, talking about our like, favourite DJ’s and then sort [00:04:15] of just friends for a little while. And then, yeah, after a couple of months, one thing led to another and um, cheesy [00:04:20] saying, but the rest is history.

Payman Langroudi: But but I remember his version of events. He had a girlfriend at that [00:04:25] point. Oh, did you know this?

Meghan Chard: Um, not at first. Um, [00:04:30] not until.

Payman Langroudi: You didn’t tell.

Meghan Chard: You didn’t tell me at first. Uh, and then. Yeah, kind of, um. [00:04:35] Yeah, you find out in the end, don’t you? But um. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You were leaving it at that.

Meghan Chard: It [00:04:40] was, it was pretty much on its last legs anyway.

Payman Langroudi: So you know, that’s cool. [00:04:45]

Meghan Chard: It’s fine. We’re married now. It’s all good. It’s all.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Yeah, yeah. So. Okay. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: I [00:04:50] didn’t realise he told you that bit. So you’ve just caught me a bit, you know, in the spotlight.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:04:55] then what? You okay? You went out. I remember first time I met you. You weren’t married? [00:05:00]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, yeah, you and I was saying delay, if you remember, I was. I always [00:05:05] say delay. Um, but you got married. And so then what? You were both [00:05:10] associates.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So both associates doing our own thing. And then we actually worked part time for size [00:05:15] parents as well. Mhm. Um, so that’s kind of where we got our feel for the practice. Um, [00:05:20] and then, you know, sort of one thing led to another. And then Simon’s parents wanted [00:05:25] to retire and it’s sort of kind of just the momentum sort of happened and it just kind of was the next step [00:05:30] really. So we worked as associates for, I think like what, 2013 [00:05:35] to 18. So five years, we’re associates there. And then we took over bought, bought [00:05:40] it off them. And then, um, yeah. And then the biggest thing though was that we bought the practice [00:05:45] literally a month before I gave birth to our eldest. Wow. So that was like, that [00:05:50] was mega. You know, I remember being in labour in the hospital trying to figure out how to pay people for the first time. I hadn’t paid people. [00:05:55] Yeah. Um, so that was like a, that was like two major milestones happening, colliding, [00:06:00] should I say, at the same time. So that was quite major.

Payman Langroudi: You you’re more involved [00:06:05] in running it than he is. Is that correct?

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: He’s he’s out and about lecturing.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. But he’s [00:06:10] he’s more he’s more business minded. If I’m completely honest. I didn’t train to be a business person. I [00:06:15] trained to be a dentist. So it doesn’t come as easy and as naturally to me to do business things. [00:06:20] Yeah. Um, whereas it’s very, very easy for Simon. And, um, so we have like our strengths [00:06:25] and weaknesses and I’m more kind of, you know, so yeah, I mean, I don’t run it day to day [00:06:30] because, you know, we’ve got managers, but like there’s always something to do and there’s, you know, you’re always having to chase up on something or, you [00:06:35] know, like what, you know, something’s been left in the past. I’ll pick it up and say, what happened with that? And you’re always having to think that [00:06:40] way. But I’m definitely more ops sort of, um, ops minded and size [00:06:45] more like kind of direction leading, leading that way, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So then what? He who [00:06:50] does the hiring and firing, do you both.

Meghan Chard: Um, so now we’re sort of delegated [00:06:55] the hiring of the nurses to our managers. Yeah. And then the associates, [00:07:00] I would probably, I’d probably interview them and then I would probably um. [00:07:05] Yeah. I think I’ve interviewed mostly sometimes I’ll bring Sai in depending, but some, a bit of both, [00:07:10] but mainly me, I would say.

Payman Langroudi: And you get like you must do, you must get fan boys and girls [00:07:15] saying I want to work here because it’s you too.

Meghan Chard: Uh, I think Simon does. They don’t really message me that much, which is fine [00:07:20] by me. But yeah, I think more for Sai. He does? Yeah. He gets.

Payman Langroudi: So does that mean the associate that turns [00:07:25] up at your interview is expecting more than just patients in the practice. [00:07:30] He’s expecting like some form of mentorship. Or is that something you offer to get the [00:07:35] right associate or what.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What’s the deal for an associate at Rothley Lodge?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, [00:07:40] I think so. Cider’s like one to ones with them and stuff like that. Um, and [00:07:45] do you know what it is? We’ve had like a really large NHS contract for so many years.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:07:50] did you carry that on when you bought it?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, it was massive [00:07:55] and it was.

Payman Langroudi: Still in NHS.

Meghan Chard: We still have some NHS but it’s much smaller.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: We [00:08:00] had to reduce it because it got to the stage where we’d actually, even with size profile, we couldn’t actually find [00:08:05] it really hard to get associates. Mhm. Um, because they didn’t want to do the NHS and the NHS basically. [00:08:10] So now kind of in a slightly different situation where, you know, we’ve got [00:08:15] a much smaller NHS contract. So dentists now, you know, it’s much more easier [00:08:20] to get really good associates now I would say.

Payman Langroudi: And talk me through. I mean, Simon’s [00:08:25] both his parents are dentists. You said your uncle is a dentist. Talk me through the [00:08:30] sort of the I don’t know the I want to call it privilege that [00:08:35] that gives you in dentistry because now my my daughter’s announced that she wants [00:08:40] to be a dentist. And in a way I’m thinking, well done. At least someone. One of our kids is [00:08:45] because both me and my wife were dentists.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Um, so, [00:08:50] you know, when you went, how much planning? I mean, knowing Simon, you guys probably had [00:08:55] a big plan for what you were going to do to this place outside of building work. I mean, you did building work. [00:09:00] You expanded it.

Meghan Chard: In the practice. You mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But I’m thinking of like the, the mindset [00:09:05] going in. Were you going in thinking we’re going to make big changes?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah, I think [00:09:10] so.

Payman Langroudi: Did that annoy people. It must have done. It’s like there must be there must have been people who were [00:09:15] working there thinking everything’s been stable, everything’s been fine. Now these guys are talking about digital [00:09:20] or whatever it was marketing, whatever it was.

Meghan Chard: I don’t think it ruffle any feathers because I think [00:09:25] we weren’t sort of saying how it was done before was bad because it wasn’t it was, you know, his parents were [00:09:30] did an amazing, amazing job. Yeah. Incredible job. And they grew it from like a two surgery practice [00:09:35] to a five surgery practice. Um, but, you know, just naturally, you know, [00:09:40] the younger, the younger you are, the more sort of in the know you are of the newer techniques and technology. [00:09:45] Right. Um, so it’s just kind of a natural progression that we could see things that were happening, [00:09:50] um, and could and, and saw we could incorporate that and improve and grow the practice. [00:09:55] So it didn’t ruffle any feathers. And I think, you know, um, I mean, my dad still works at the practice [00:10:00] and he. Yeah. And he’s, and he like, he, you know, he was still owning it when we bought the Sarasin. And [00:10:05] so he’s always up for kind of trying new things. Yeah. Um, so no, it was, yeah. It was, [00:10:10] it was um and we implemented things slowly. You know, it was like bit by bit. So I think it was, it was a [00:10:15] natural transition.

Payman Langroudi: And you had to pay him for it properly, right? Because size got brothers [00:10:20] and sisters.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, we got it valued and we had to.

Payman Langroudi: Get it handed to you.

Meghan Chard: We bought it. We bought it at market, [00:10:25] market price.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And so were you involved in sort of the financial [00:10:30] planning as well?

Meghan Chard: Uh, with all of that when we bought it. Yeah. I mean, it’s a bit yeah. I mean, I’m [00:10:35] very lucky that, you know, my in-laws are amazing. Um, but obviously it can [00:10:40] be quite tricky with like knowing each other’s insides and outs and business [00:10:45] and things like that is like a very fine line that we have to be careful treading on. Um, but, you know, we [00:10:50] manage, we manage it, we kind of navigate our way through it. And, you know, we still have a really [00:10:55] good relationship and things like that. So we’re quite lucky that way. But it has been challenging.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, what I mean is what I [00:11:00] mean is anyone who’s buying any practice has to have a good understanding of the numbers and [00:11:05] understand that the numbers are very different. Once you bought the place because you’ve bought the place for [00:11:10] a huge number that needs paying off. Yeah. So, so this is my [00:11:15] point. Like if I’m going to start a practice, what do I have to learn? Did you, did you [00:11:20] have to go and, you know, watch YouTube videos or whatever and learn anything about this? Or did [00:11:25] you find.

Meghan Chard: Running a practice? Do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But the numbers, what do we need to grow?

Meghan Chard: I’m still we’re still figuring it out now, [00:11:30] to be honest. Really, it’s still like, you know. Yeah. Because I mean, as you say, you know, [00:11:35] you’re just your dentist, aren’t you? So you’re kind of learning on the job.

Payman Langroudi: You know. Do you have a handle of it now? Like running [00:11:40] costs like these?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s taken a few years to get that way. To be honest, I’m not gonna lie. We’re winging it [00:11:45] quite a lot of the time. But now I do.

Payman Langroudi: This.

Meghan Chard: Business. Yeah, I do feel like now we’re definitely. And [00:11:50] I think parlour has massively helped with that. Oh, really? Yeah. To be honest, because, um. [00:11:55] Size, I had to learn about how to actually, you know, so in dentistry, you know, it’s quite, uh, [00:12:00] the money’s quite patients come in coming in and so not easy to make money, not [00:12:05] that way, but.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to toothpaste.

Meghan Chard: Like. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, your patients come in and it’s quite, you know, [00:12:10] you don’t have to do too much, especially if you’ve got, you know, an NHS contract and patients come in and see you regularly and they’re coming in. So, [00:12:15] so whereas with, with parlour, he had to, you know, really know the numbers and really sort of [00:12:20] um like reject. Yeah. And also just really, um, you [00:12:25] know, expenditure, you know, what the expenses are really have a handle on what’s incoming and [00:12:30] outgoing and things like that. So that’s sort of translated into our practice. Um, so that’s [00:12:35] been amazing because I’ve kind of learned from him then and now. We definitely have a much better handle [00:12:40] on it. And we know, you know, what materials are and this and that and the percentage. And, you know, we’re kind of finally [00:12:45] getting.

Payman Langroudi: Surprised you the most about practice ownership. Like even [00:12:50] though you’ve had all these people in your history who’ve been dentists, someone going into [00:12:55] practice ownership as an associate, what surprises you?

Meghan Chard: I [00:13:00] think the staff management is really tricky.

Payman Langroudi: Trickier than you thought it was.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. Um, [00:13:05] and then also the legality side of that, you know, like, you know, just.

Payman Langroudi: Kind.

Meghan Chard: Of. Yeah. And [00:13:10] yeah. And all like your actual responsibilities and like pensions and this and that. And actually this is so it’s [00:13:15] like, it’s a whole, a whole job in itself is people have HR departments. Yeah, yeah. And that’s, you [00:13:20] know, you’re learning all that as you go along and you make some mistakes and you have some hairy moments and you’re like sugar, [00:13:25] you know? Um, so that I think is the hardest bit of, and I think when you ever speak to anyone [00:13:30] who’s a business owner, they will always say it’s managing the staff that is so challenging. Um, [00:13:35] so yeah, that’s what, that’s what I would say.

Payman Langroudi: So what are the top tips for managing staff [00:13:40] that you’ve learned in the last what is it eight years.

Meghan Chard: Top tips.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:13:45] let me give you an example. One thing I’ve learned, and I should have known this a long time ago, is that almost [00:13:50] body language is super important as the principal, you know, as, as the guy [00:13:55] at the top, when you walk in, you know, you gotta.

Meghan Chard: Bring the energy, you gotta bring the.

Payman Langroudi: Energy. Yeah. [00:14:00] It’s super important. Yeah. Um, there’s a, there’s a responsibility to being the boss. [00:14:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So like you say, bring the energy, but go on.

Meghan Chard: It’s like, it’s almost like being a parent in some ways. Like you’ve got [00:14:10] to show up every day and like, even if someone’s like annoyed you or someone has done something that you think is [00:14:15] really disrespectful, it’s gotta let it go. And like the next day it’s wake up and turn up and just bring [00:14:20] the energy. You can’t if you’re in a bad mood and you’re leading the team and you come in and you’ve given this negativity, [00:14:25] then it’s just going to infiltrate in throughout the team. So you have to show up every day and just bring the energy. And remember, [00:14:30] they’re looking up to you. Um, And you’re trying to lead them and trying to bring them on your [00:14:35] on this journey that you’re visualising with you.

Payman Langroudi: Then. Okay. I mean, you know, we’re [00:14:40] talking about delegating, for instance. Yeah. And some people are really good at it naturally and [00:14:45] others aren’t. You know, like I’m not delegating. Yeah. Yeah. Um, some people will say, look, [00:14:50] this is the goal. These are the milestones. This is how we’re going to check in on each other. Yeah. This is what success [00:14:55] looks like. This is what failure looks like. And really, you know, stick to that. Yeah. That’s a great delegator, right? I’m [00:15:00] more like, yeah, this is the end. Go figure it out. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Which one would you say you are? [00:15:05]

Meghan Chard: Um, what I probably do is give them the end. Then I realise it’s [00:15:10] not working and I have to backtrack and say like, okay, this is actually how we need [00:15:15] to do it. Um, but I think, yeah, it’s all in the communication, isn’t it? But it takes a while to delegate. I mean, at [00:15:20] first I was definitely doing everything, trying to do everything myself.

Payman Langroudi: Trusting.

Meghan Chard: Anyone. But then you can’t do it all. [00:15:25] Yeah. So you just gotta delegate and just. And then just keep checking in, I suppose. But, um.

Payman Langroudi: But I see, like, look, [00:15:30] I know Simon so well. Okay. I’d say his super strengths are he’s laser [00:15:35] focussed, he’s super ambitious, and he thinks in long [00:15:40] time frames. What would you say are your superpowers?

Meghan Chard: I [00:15:45] am like a little bit hyperactive, like in terms of like, I [00:15:50] can’t sit still. Some might call it ADHD. No, I joking. I don’t know who [00:15:55] knows what it is, but I just like to get things done. So like.

Payman Langroudi: Do you make decisions quite [00:16:00] quickly?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Which might be borderline impulsive.

Payman Langroudi: Do you trust do you trust your gut? [00:16:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I do actually, especially with people. Do you. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:16:10] a.

Meghan Chard: Super strength. And actually I think I’m really empathic. Like I’ll know if someone, something’s off with someone. [00:16:15] I’ll just sense it immediately.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a super.

Meghan Chard: Strength. Yeah. And that’s what I think. And I’ll be like that. [00:16:20] Something’s not quite right there.

Payman Langroudi: I remember in the early days when my wife was involved in enlighten, [00:16:25] I remember sometimes we used to sit at night talking about one person’s life, one person’s [00:16:30] issues in their life and, you know, so involved with the team that it was almost like a [00:16:35] family nightmare sometimes.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Does that does that resonate? Did you do that before, [00:16:40] or did you manage to dissociate and have the manager take.

Meghan Chard: There’s so many team. You do get sad, obviously [00:16:45] about certain things, but I think you just have to like you [00:16:50] can’t take everything on, on your shoulders. You’ve got your own stuff to deal with and you’ve only got a certain amount [00:16:55] of emotional bandwidth. Yeah. Um, and I think, I think you can’t take everyone’s, you know, worries [00:17:00] and struggles on. So you can, you can do what you can to help. But I think we’re quite good [00:17:05] that way. I mean, I’ll feel a bit say you hear some really bad news, you’ll feel really sad about it and down about it for [00:17:10] a little while. But then, you know, you’ve got to, you know, just you’ve got to crack on with other things, I suppose. But yeah. [00:17:15]

Payman Langroudi: You’ve had you had kids or pregnancy right at the beginning. And so [00:17:20] maybe that gave you some sort of understanding, some sort of, you know, like, you know, you gave some, some difference to like [00:17:25] your home life. And whereas we didn’t have kids when we started the company. Yeah. And I guess it was like a kid [00:17:30] in a way.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the juggle.

Meghan Chard: The juggle? The juggles a [00:17:35] lot.

Payman Langroudi: It is.

Meghan Chard: It’s a lot. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mothers who I have here, you’ve [00:17:40] got three kids. How old are they?

Meghan Chard: Seven. Four and one.

Payman Langroudi: Oh my goodness.

Meghan Chard: You [00:17:45] know, we’ve just in the.

Payman Langroudi: Past month you manage to [00:17:50] do it.

Meghan Chard: All. I know. Honestly in the past month though my youngest has started sleeping through like properly. So I’m getting [00:17:55] seven hours of sleep now. So I feel like we’re entering a new era. Mhm. Um, are [00:18:00] the you know, what I find really hard is obviously [00:18:05] you’ve got the drop off and the pickup and all that sort of stuff, but I find it really hard to have like a clinical brain and [00:18:10] then a business brain and then a home brain and then like a wife brain. [00:18:15] I find it really hard to switch between all those things. And I think just being a mom alone, you’ve got [00:18:20] thousands and thousands of decisions you have to make, you know, and think about, you know, all the homework and what uniform [00:18:25] they need, because every day is a different uniform or they’ve got a party coming up, so you need to buy some presents, and they’re [00:18:30] growing out of those clothes and they’re going away next week. So we need to like get some new socks or some new shoes, like the decisions, [00:18:35] you know, you go out for the day and you’re like, right, I need, you know, I’m thinking, right, spare clothes and nappies [00:18:40] and snacks because we might not get home just quite on time. So I need to make them snacks and dessert.

Meghan Chard: And I think [00:18:45] I know Simon’s got a lot on his plate, but I think the difference between a mom and a dad [00:18:50] is that we take that all that on. And I think it’s draining. I think it’s like it just [00:18:55] your brain never stops. Um, so I find that hard trying to switch between [00:19:00] the different roles and even at work, you know, um, I’ll sedate [00:19:05] patients sometimes and things like that. So I was running late in the morning and I was sedating [00:19:10] a patient for two other dentists. So they were waiting for me to finish and I was running late. So [00:19:15] I was getting a bit flappy, and I had to nip upstairs to the office to get all my sedation stuff [00:19:20] out. And then my manager was like, oh, Meg, um, just need to a. Quickly talk to you about fire the staff [00:19:25] fire training. So I booked into it and I was like, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t like switch [00:19:30] to that brain. And that’s what I find really hard. Like I’m always multitasking and switch and switch tasking [00:19:35] and I just find that really draining. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it’s, I think that’s hard when [00:19:40] you’ve got like different elements going on.

Payman Langroudi: My wife used to say that she used to see doing [00:19:45] the actual clinical work as me time. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you can just focus on [00:19:50] one thing at a time.

Payman Langroudi: Sad state of affairs. Man with crown prep is me time a. [00:19:55]

Meghan Chard: Real.

Payman Langroudi: Luxury?

Meghan Chard: Uh, yeah. No, I can relate to that. I can understand, so yeah, it’s [00:20:00] it’s, um.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, I look at Instagram and I know this is the way Instagram looks, right? [00:20:05] You look like you’ve got it all, you know, you’re on one minute you’re on holiday, next minute you’re [00:20:10] on a, on a one on one date night with Simon. And there’s kids and clearly [00:20:15] none of us have it. All right.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. No. And I don’t think you can have it all either, to be honest. [00:20:20]

Payman Langroudi: It depends what all is. Right.

Meghan Chard: And everyone’s all is different.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’re.

Meghan Chard: I mean, I do have it all in some ways, but, [00:20:25] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, but.

Meghan Chard: You.

Payman Langroudi: Could be 100 practices. You haven’t got that right.

Meghan Chard: And clinically I’m, you know, [00:20:30] like I’ve been, to be honest with you, um, you know, I feel like I’ve been hiding under a rock for the last eight [00:20:35] years because I’ve been trying for a baby, pregnant, having a baby, trying for the next baby [00:20:40] pregnant.

Payman Langroudi: This is what I was going to ask. What gives? Yeah. For you. So you’re saying your clinical [00:20:45] progression gave a little bit?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I don’t think I could. You can’t. For me, that was [00:20:50] for me. I’ve always wanted a family that was like a priority for me. Yeah. So that was what I wanted. [00:20:55] Um, so as a result I had to take a step back from clinical and then, you know, you’ve got the practice side of [00:21:00] things as well. So maybe if I didn’t own a practice, my clinical would have gone that way. But then we have a practice. So [00:21:05] that gives us our lifestyle and things like that. So, um, and our flexibility and our autonomy. [00:21:10] So that’s kind of the priority in that. So, um, so clinical has definitely taken [00:21:15] a step back. Um, and now if I’m being completely honest, I feel [00:21:20] after three kids there’s probably about a three three brain cells left in there, so it’s really hard. My [00:21:25] memory is gone and it’s a real thing. Yeah. And, you know, it’s, um, you know, [00:21:30] we’re friends and I know my friend’s kids names, but in the moment I’m talking and I’m.

Payman Langroudi: Like, yeah, I know that.

Meghan Chard: I can’t think [00:21:35] of like my best friend’s kids names and it’s awkward and you’re like, oh, you know, you know, your [00:21:40] little love, you know? And so it’s, I find that really challenging. Like, I find it really hard to kind of get clinically [00:21:45] kind of keep remembering things and trying to learn things, you know, because I feel like I’ve got, you [00:21:50] know, a million plates spinning in your brain and there’s only so much you can hold on to, you know, [00:21:55] so that’s, that’s challenging because I used to be, you know, I used to be, you know, like [00:22:00] I used to be really like, really on it, you know, and love learning and doing all the new [00:22:05] techniques and things and, and then, you know, for the past eight years, I’ve had to take a step back, which is fine because [00:22:10] I’m so happy with what I’m so happy with what I’ve, what I’ve got. I’m like, I’m so happy. So, but [00:22:15] something has to give essentially.

Payman Langroudi: To give is the point, right? And you know, it’s not going to be the children. Yeah. [00:22:20] It’s not going to be the business. Yeah. Um, looks like you’re not you know, you’re taking care of yourself. [00:22:25] You’re going for runs and things often it’s that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The relationship. Yeah. Let’s [00:22:30] not you know let’s not beat about the bush. The relationship needs time as well. Right. Um, but something has [00:22:35] to give and I speak to people.

Meghan Chard: You need to have a holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Holidays. Holidays. Do you have a [00:22:40] nanny? Yeah. You need a nanny? Yeah. You need a.

Meghan Chard: Village. You need a village, to be honest with you. [00:22:45] Do you know we. For my third, I thought I’m gonna treat myself to. So we have, like, um.

Payman Langroudi: A night [00:22:50] nanny, a night nurse.

Meghan Chard: No, I never, I never had a night nanny.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Okay.

Meghan Chard: Just just [00:22:55] it was a martyr for that one. Just did it for all three. Just took the took the hit. But it’s [00:23:00] fine. You know what? It’s you know, it’s part of part of motherhood. Um, yeah, we have a nanny now. Um, [00:23:05] my two clinical days that I go to work, she comes in at 6 a.m. and she stays at 6 [00:23:10] p.m. and that means that’s why you might see, you know, an Instagram me and Sy in the same room because [00:23:15] we have that time to exercise. Otherwise we never exercise together. Otherwise we have to tag team it. [00:23:20] But on those two days we get to exercise at the same time. And like this morning we did some hierarchy [00:23:25] training. We went for runs and and that’s amazing. And I remember when [00:23:30] I just had two kids, you know, we didn’t have a nanny that would come in the morning and I would basically [00:23:35] do my workout, get the kids ready, you know, get our lunch ready, get our scrubs ready. And like, it was just, [00:23:40] it was just so busy. And by the time I got to work, I was just so stressed, like dropping one kid off here and another kid off [00:23:45] here. And I remember thinking, oh my God, it is such a juggle. And then third time around, we just treated [00:23:50] ourselves to a nanny and she’s amazing. And, um, yeah, I’d say she comes at 6 a.m. and [00:23:55] we come to work and I’m like, right, I’m ready to take on the day. It’s so nice. Honestly, it’s worth [00:24:00] every penny. And it’s just to kind of give your life some harmony and some balance. Yeah. Of course. Um, that was [00:24:05] a game changer. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course, I think it’s so important for a woman to have a career so [00:24:10] important, you know, why not? Yeah. That’s correct. That piece of your head that [00:24:15] that addresses progression and being good at something and, you know, you [00:24:20] know, giving something to the world, it’s giving something back to the world. It’s a really important part of your brain. [00:24:25] Um, God forbid something happens. You can, you could, you can feed your children. There’s [00:24:30] that obvious, obvious part of it as well.

Meghan Chard: But we’re so lucky in dentistry. Yeah. Because not a lot of flexibility. [00:24:35] Yeah. You know, when you speak to other mums in the playground, like they don’t [00:24:40] work because they can’t have something that’s flexible or the money’s just not enough that it’s not worth, [00:24:45] you know, the sort of childcare and things like that. Or you have to work full time. It’s really tricky. So I feel very [00:24:50] privileged that way.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t want to talk about kids the whole time. But you said [00:24:55] you definitely wanted children. Have you always definitely wanted children, or was there a time where you weren’t [00:25:00] sure or, you know? Because I come across lots of teams, team members say, oh, I never want [00:25:05] a kid now have three children. Yeah. What was that like? Do you relate it back to your [00:25:10] own childhood or what was it about you knowing that you want to be a mom?

Meghan Chard: Just always loved [00:25:15] babies. When I was a kid, I was young, you know? I was the youngest of four. Okay. So I think I always wanted my parents [00:25:20] have another baby, but obviously I’m the youngest of four. They already had enough. And [00:25:25] so they obviously never had any more. And I always wanted a younger brother or sister. And so any time [00:25:30] there was a little baby around, I always loved like playing with them. Um, and so yeah, that was that was [00:25:35] it really just love, love kids.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and that decision just stuck through to adulthood. Yeah. It’s interesting, [00:25:40] isn’t it?

Meghan Chard: I know, and like I wanted my own family since I was a little girl when you were a child yourself. It’s very strange, [00:25:45] but obviously it’s that internal drive, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Of course. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: You know, it’s biology.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: So, um. Yeah, [00:25:50] always, you know, always wanted kids. Um, kind of always wanted it all really. That’s the thing, you know, I wanted the [00:25:55] kids wanted to have like a career, um, always fiercely independent. I’ve always wanted to be able to like, [00:26:00] support myself as well. That was kind of my main focus. Um, so [00:26:05] yeah, that’s kind of my background really.

Payman Langroudi: So well, [00:26:10] While we’re there, let’s talk about your aunt. Your your aunt by marriage [00:26:15] was president of Ireland. Yeah, it’s pretty.

Meghan Chard: Major.

Payman Langroudi: Mary [00:26:20] McAleese. Yeah, I’m a massive fan. I’m a. That’s good. Your aunt’s way more famous than your [00:26:25] husband. Um, I’m a massive fan of hers. But tell me that. I mean, [00:26:30] the question of, like, in your family history, was there something about, you know, women being empowered, [00:26:35] educated? I know she was an academic, wasn’t she?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. But she came from like, she’s [00:26:40] the eldest of nine kids. Really? I don’t think they had a lot of money, but yeah, she, I think so [00:26:45] my, my parents and, and my uncle, my auntie, they’re from Belfast. So like they were Catholics. [00:26:50] Um, and I guess going up during the troubles, they were like second class citizens. Um [00:26:55] and so I think for them just to get out of poverty, you know, there are a lot of jobs that weren’t available for Catholic people and [00:27:00] things like that. So for them, education was like, number one, to get out of poverty and get out, [00:27:05] you know, to get yourself up in the world. So.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so in your house, was that like an ingrained [00:27:10] to you kids ingrained?

Meghan Chard: My parents were both teachers. So and, you know, obviously, you know, [00:27:15] they, they gave us everything they had, but they had four kids and they gave us piano lessons and this lessons [00:27:20] and that and that. So we didn’t have a lot of money. Don’t get me wrong, you know, we weren’t on the breadline, but we didn’t have we didn’t have luxuries [00:27:25] growing up, you know, we didn’t go on like holidays and things like that. Like, you know, we’d go to Ireland on holiday. [00:27:30] That was a holiday to see family. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: They were you not in Ireland.

Meghan Chard: Or. No. So basically [00:27:35] they left Ireland because of the troubles.

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Meghan Chard: And my parents met in Manchester, [00:27:40] they went to become teachers in Manchester and then they never went back to Belfast because it was 80s. [00:27:45] And it was like stuff was, you know, shit was going down. So they actually went to the Bahamas [00:27:50] interestingly. Well, yeah, like completely different. And when I think about that, I think, wow, like [00:27:55] going from Belfast to like a tiny island in the middle of like, oh my [00:28:00] God, like a completely different, um, so they went there for a few years and then eventually they decided [00:28:05] to go back to Manchester because the troubles were still going on. So yeah, I kind of grew up a bit in Manchester [00:28:10] and then went back to Ireland for my secondary school and then we came back to Manchester. [00:28:15] So I’m kind of like an Irish Mancunian is how I describe myself basically.

Payman Langroudi: Belfast. So interesting. [00:28:20] My dad studied at Queens.

Meghan Chard: Oh really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And back in the 60s. And he [00:28:25] said because he was neither a Catholic or Protestant, they always used to [00:28:30] come to him to, to like him and his friends, to like be president of the students union or whatever. [00:28:35] Brilliant.

Meghan Chard: You know, neutral territory. I love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Meghan Chard: What did he study? [00:28:40]

Payman Langroudi: Economics. Economics. And it was like a big group that used to get sent by the oil [00:28:45] company to, to study abroad. And for some reason Belfast was a place that they studied.

Meghan Chard: But [00:28:50] it’s so random.

Payman Langroudi: But my dad’s like a very strict atheist. He’s [00:28:55] very much does not believe in God. And he was saying how funny it was that these, these two groups that [00:29:00] were so close to each other trusted him. So he doesn’t believe in God.

Meghan Chard: And [00:29:05] they’re fighting over and.

Payman Langroudi: They’re fighting over the smallest thing.

Meghan Chard: I know.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:29:10] the troubles, I mean, we go to Belfast a lot with our course and [00:29:15] what a great town it is now. What a great. It goes to show, doesn’t it, that if you let a let a people [00:29:20] thrive, they can thrive.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And yet your parents had to leave. Yeah. Because [00:29:25] of the troubles. Yeah. It’s really tough, man.

Meghan Chard: I know, but it’s a great place. The people are [00:29:30] so friendly.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s hard. I can understand the accent, but I can imagine other people cannot [00:29:35] understand.

Payman Langroudi: You say, come again?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, the accent is great. [00:29:40] I mean, Simon couldn’t understand my dad at first. My dad would be like, could you pass the salt, please? [00:29:45] And I’m like, you have no idea.

Payman Langroudi: Boy, can they drink. Yeah. You know, when [00:29:50] we go out on the social. My goodness, everyone’s out till 3 a.m. and [00:29:55] then the next day, everyone looks like they’re completely okay.

Meghan Chard: Like I I’ve lost those that [00:30:00] ability. I’m like, you know, the hangovers are unreal for me now, but, um.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, so [00:30:05] look in amongst all of this now you’ve found an interest in airway obstruction. [00:30:10]

Meghan Chard: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: And childhood airway obstruction.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Which is super interesting. So [00:30:15] let’s, let’s talk about that because airway dentistry is becoming very fashionable. [00:30:20] Mhm. And I guess we’re talking about sleep apnoea and snoring and all of that. And devices [00:30:25] you can put in adults. Yeah. For a start to help with that. But let’s talk about what are the for [00:30:30] children? What are the firstly, the signs and symptoms of a child who’s having airway [00:30:35] obstruction. Yeah. What should we be looking out for. And then what are the treatments.

Meghan Chard: So [00:30:40] the thing is sleep disordered breathing is kind of the sort of big headline the title. [00:30:45] And essentially it’s like a disruption in a child’s, you know, you know, even [00:30:50] adults obviously can have sleep disordered breathing. And essentially it’s a disruption in their normal breathing [00:30:55] habits while they’re sleeping. And it’s a spectrum. So it ranges from kind of mouth breathing at [00:31:00] night to sort of some snoring to upper airway resistance syndrome, to obstructive [00:31:05] sleep apnoea. So it ranges from kind of resistance and restriction. So not getting as much oxygen [00:31:10] in um, all the way to kind of complete collapsing of the airways and getting no oxygen in at all. [00:31:15] And what that means is, um, it affects the amount of oxygenation that’s occurring in [00:31:20] your body at night when you’re sleeping and it affects your ability to get into deep restorative sleep. [00:31:25] And, you know, obviously deep restorative sleep is essential. You know, you have so many.

Payman Langroudi: Sorts of different.

Meghan Chard: Systems, everything, [00:31:30] everything in your body, you know, you need to sleep, you know, if you don’t sleep, you actually will die. So, um, [00:31:35] you know, during deep restorative sleep, you have, you know, your brain is flushed out of toxins and [00:31:40] waste products. Um, and actually build up of these products is linked to kind of Alzheimer’s and dementia. So [00:31:45] it’s really important that, you know, when you’re sleeping, you have continuous deep sleep. So this process can keep [00:31:50] happening several times throughout the night. Um, so obviously.

Payman Langroudi: You on, on one of the posts, you [00:31:55] had a picture of an MRI of someone who slept really well.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And someone who hasn’t slept is massively different. [00:32:00]

Meghan Chard: Yeah, the firing up there, the brain, you know, and you know, those areas are involved with memory, decision [00:32:05] making, problem solving. So if they’re not firing up properly, like, you know, you know, [00:32:10] it’s like, for example, sleep deprived parents, you know, they struggle. They’re like, you know, your memory, you know, your.

Payman Langroudi: Brain [00:32:15] fog.

Meghan Chard: Brain fog, you can’t think, you can’t really function. It’s really tough. Um, and the reason [00:32:20] why I’m so passionate about it with children is because children are going through such rapid [00:32:25] growth and development. It’s like it really affects them way more than an adult. And with an adult, [00:32:30] it’s really bad. Like, you know, it can cause depression, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, stroke. It’s linked, [00:32:35] you know, with all these things. But in a child, they’re like massively growing, you know, and. [00:32:40]

Payman Langroudi: The mental.

Meghan Chard: Stuff. And they need that oxygen. That’s their powerhouse, you know, and so, [00:32:45] um, then therefore it’s going to affect them massively at school with their learning, with their behaviour. [00:32:50] You know, I know I’m emotional wreck if I’ve not had a good night’s sleep, but you know, with children, um, [00:32:55] with their focus, with their attention, Um, you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so crazy, isn’t it, that even when [00:33:00] you were a kid, you remember there was some kid who used to come to school like, um, naughty [00:33:05] or. Yeah, you know, something. And, and, you know, okay, nowadays we call, we call that [00:33:10] ADHD, but I heard sleep apnoea has something to do with that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So, so, so [00:33:15] sleep disordered breathing is kind of linked with like, so let me [00:33:20] rephrase. So 50% of ADHD cases have sleep disordered breathing.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:33:25]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So what you should always do is if your child’s been diagnosed with ADHD is always [00:33:30] look at the sleep. It might not be the sleep, but always look at the sleep because there’s a 1 in 2, 1 in 2 [00:33:35] children sleep anyway. Right? Exactly. Um, but obviously if your child is, [00:33:40] say, mouth breathing, which is kind of the main things that I’m trying to like educate people on [00:33:45] if their mouth breathing, it’s limiting the amount of oxygen that they’re getting in. Imagine, you know, with an adult, [00:33:50] you know, we provide them with a, if they’ve got if they’re snoring, we provide them with a the mandibular [00:33:55] advancement splint. Yeah. And you’re doing that because it’s opening up the airways, right. [00:34:00] So if your mouth breathing as a child. And that’s because when they’re snoring, their snoring, because their mouth [00:34:05] the mouth’s open and the snoring with the, with the oropharynx is it’s like kind of that vibration, right? So [00:34:10] same thing was the child. When the mouth is open, the jaw hinges back and [00:34:15] it compresses the airways. Yeah. And actually, um, which I find mind blowing, an [00:34:20] average seven year old’s airways is seven millimetres in diameter. Uh, [00:34:25] and if that mandible hinges open just by half an inch, it can actually close it up by [00:34:30] six millimetres. I’ve actually got some straws in my bag to show you. Can I show you? Sure. Of course. [00:34:35] So this is an average sort of airway of a seven year old. And if their mandible drops open by half an [00:34:40] inch, it can actually do that, right. So can you imagine trying to breathe all your essential oxygen when [00:34:45] you’re a child through something like this?

Payman Langroudi: So we’re looking at a massive straw and a tiny straw, basically. [00:34:50] Yeah. Yeah. That really that shows it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Right. So, um, and so then what happens [00:34:55] is the child is getting fragmented, deep restorative sleep. So they’re basically sleep deprived. [00:35:00] And so it affects their body in so many different ways. And what that looks like that they, they, the symptoms, [00:35:05] the outward symptoms of this are basically they look to the outside [00:35:10] world when you don’t know that they’re linked, they look random. So they could be, could be bedwetting, tooth [00:35:15] grinding, um, ADHD symptoms, um, you know, sweaty, restless sleep, [00:35:20] morning headaches, eczema, asthma, um, you know, all these [00:35:25] things and people then start treating them separately, right? So if you’ve got like eczema, you need all these lotions, [00:35:30] if you have asthma, your inhalers, if you’ve got ADHD medication, [00:35:35] you know, or you know, you’ve got anxiety, you know, if [00:35:40] you don’t have enough sleep, you’re anxious the next day, anxiety, a case of therapy or whatever, or medication. [00:35:45] So all these things are kind of looked at separately.

Payman Langroudi: And do we have any idea what percentage [00:35:50] of children are having this issue.

Meghan Chard: Well, there’s lots of different studies [00:35:55] that show different things. I mean, I’m linked with this company by which, you know, we can talk [00:36:00] about later or not. I don’t mind forever, but um, the baby, um, they have done some studies [00:36:05] and I know obviously it’s, they’ve done their own studies, but it’s just an indicator of the scale of [00:36:10] the problem. So they did a study on 500 children, and nine out of ten of those [00:36:15] children were displaying at least one sign of sleep disordered breathing. And there were other studies that [00:36:20] are showing 70%, 60%, 80%, but a lot of children.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Are [00:36:25] like, uh.

Payman Langroudi: Um, suffering.

Meghan Chard: Suffering from this. It’s an endemic. And, [00:36:30] you know, in America, in Australia, they are all over it. All the American academies. [00:36:35] So the American, uh, paediatric, orthodontic, the Ada, they all [00:36:40] say that dentists should be screening for sleep disordered breathing in children. Um, [00:36:45] and in the UK, unfortunately we’re quite behind, uh, in that.

Payman Langroudi: We tend to be. Yeah, but [00:36:50] tell me. So when you say screening, what do I do as a dentist?

Meghan Chard: So you, um, so [00:36:55] I use a sleep questionnaire and what I would do is I would do when I see a child for an examination, [00:37:00] the first thing I look at is basically any tooth wear. And I’m parents come to me all the [00:37:05] time. I’m like, oh, they’re grinding their teeth. I can hear them through the next door. Is that normal? And before I knew [00:37:10] any, any of this, I used to think, oh yeah. I mean, you know, they’ll just kind of grow out of it. Didn’t really know what to [00:37:15] do and couldn’t make them a night guard because their teeth were exfoliation. Right. And you’re like, you know, unless [00:37:20] their parents are millionaires and they want to every six months, you know. Um, but now I [00:37:25] know that it’s a bit of a red flag. And so if I see tooth wear, I’ll then look at the palate and I’m like, oh my goodness, [00:37:30] the palate is really high and narrow. Or I look at the baby teeth and there’s no spacing between the baby teeth that [00:37:35] they’ve got the perfect aligned teeth already. And they shouldn’t have that because they need the space for the adult [00:37:40] teeth to come through or, you know.

Payman Langroudi: So as you see these signs, one after the other, it [00:37:45] gives you it’s almost like detective work. Yeah, exactly. You get you get the sort of stronger and stronger inkling that there is a problem. [00:37:50]

Meghan Chard: And then I’ll say, so, you know, I had an emergency patient in a couple of weeks ago and they came. The parents were worried [00:37:55] that a tooth had come out and was coming, you know, just something that wasn’t really an emergency. But they were, you know, how [00:38:00] some parents can be a bit bit worried about a tooth coming through in the wrong place or something. So they came through [00:38:05] and she was five or something, and all her baby teeth at the front were like perfectly aligned, [00:38:10] no spaces. And then I looked at her palate and it was narrow and her teeth were a bit worn. So I just [00:38:15] said to them, does she snore at night at all? Like, how’s her sleep? And they were like, yep, she snores. [00:38:20] She’s so sweaty. She’s up several times in the night. She sleeps in [00:38:25] all these funny positions. So she’s there like she sleeps with the neck always like this. And that’s, [00:38:30] that’s the child’s way of trying to body’s way of trying to keep the airway, trying to keep the airway open.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: And [00:38:35] all these things. And they’re like, we’ve been to paediatricians and they just said she’ll grow out of it and this and that. And, [00:38:40] and they were so relieved I’d actually asked these questions because they knew deep [00:38:45] down that something wasn’t right. But no one knowing the no. You know, no one knew what [00:38:50] was going on. And so when I was asking these questions, I felt like a massive relief that actually, oh [00:38:55] my goodness, there is something going on here.

Payman Langroudi: So by the way, such a beautiful moment. That moment.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. I mean, [00:39:00] honestly, I get like, I get goosebumps and like teary every time. Yeah. The parents like, because the parents get really [00:39:05] emotional. Um, because they know something’s not right, but they don’t know what and they go to the GP [00:39:10] and, you know, we’re not trained on this sort of thing. So no one really, obviously I’m in a group, [00:39:15] so I know lots of people now in the industry, but it’s kind of like, you know, on Instagram, the algorithm, it [00:39:20] knows that I’m into airway space now. So all I see is airways. So I think there’s, I think everyone knows about [00:39:25] airways, but really not really that many people do. So I feel really passionate about trying [00:39:30] to, um, spread the word on this because, uh, yeah, I think it’s, it’s mega.

Payman Langroudi: I think the moment [00:39:35] of diagnosis. We need to talk about it more. It’s such a beautiful moment. It’s such a beautiful thing. I think when, [00:39:40] when I’ve had a parent or someone who’s had a particular issue, we don’t [00:39:45] know what it is. And then someone definitively says that x plus y plus [00:39:50] z equals this diagnosis. And at least, you know.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, it’s a relief, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yes. And, [00:39:55] and one of the privileges of our job really, because, you know, there’s things like taking people out [00:40:00] of pain. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: It’s massive, isn’t.

Payman Langroudi: It a beautiful thing? But then I expect once you do [00:40:05] the treatment, does the parent is the parent now expecting bruxism to stop? So [00:40:10] what do you say about that?

Meghan Chard: I mean so I mean. When [00:40:15] you say treatment. So I mean there’s obviously lots of different. So what is [00:40:20] really important to note about sleep disordered breathing is that it’s a massive jigsaw puzzle. Yeah. And there’s lots [00:40:25] of different pieces at play. So it’s not one. You can’t just wave a magic wand and [00:40:30] fix things because there’s usually several things going on at the same time. So it could be that, you know, they’ve got massive [00:40:35] adenoids and tonsils and that’s blocking the airway. So so they might be mouth breathing because [00:40:40] the adenoids are massive and they can’t breathe through their nose, so they’re opening their mouth. So that’s [00:40:45] kind of one element.

Payman Langroudi: Do you end up do you look for that?

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I look for that. Look for the tonsil size now and I’ll refer out [00:40:50] if they’re if they’re big in T.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Um or I’ll tell parents [00:40:55] that’s really big. You need to go and speak to your GP and get referral or whatever. But again, a lot of GPS are not really [00:41:00] don’t really know about it. So I’ll just do referral to ENT now myself to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but ENT [00:41:05] is on to it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Well, I don’t know. I’m in, I’m in like a, a [00:41:10] a a group, you see, so I know certain, but I don’t think all of them, I don’t think there’s that many paediatric ents. [00:41:15] Mhm. Um because I think most people think you take your tonsils out for tonsillitis, [00:41:20] but you don’t, you take them out for airways. That’s kind of the reason why you would take them out more than tonsillitis. [00:41:25] Um but what else. You know, if the tongue isn’t like working properly, [00:41:30] then you need to train it up and strengthen it with myofunctional therapy. Because as dentists, I mean, [00:41:35] do you know how important the tongue is? The tongue’s like so important and we just were not trained on it at all. An undergrad. [00:41:40] But actually the tongue like positions. It shapes your palate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:41:45]

Meghan Chard: Um, and we all know if you’ve got a thumb sucker, we know about a low tongue position. Well, it’s mega because [00:41:50] you know, that palate is so narrow. And if that palate is so high and narrow, that’s going to interfere [00:41:55] with the nasal airways, then, which then means that child can’t nasally breathe as efficiently. And [00:42:00] that’s going to impact them into adulthood because nasal breathing is like really a basic pillar of health. [00:42:05]

Payman Langroudi: Um, so let’s keep going step by step. So you start noticing some of these signs and [00:42:10] symptoms. Yeah. You look for the other stuff that might need referral. Yeah. They filled out a form [00:42:15] and all of that. Yeah. What do we do as far as treatment [00:42:20] from a dentist side?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. From a dentist. So if you’re. So it depends on what stage the child’s in. [00:42:25] Yeah. Because if they’re kind of in their mixed dentition. Um, and you know, they’re adult, you know, the adult teeth are starting to [00:42:30] come through now then I would probably at that point and I can see this crowding, there’s not enough space for like the [00:42:35] twos or threes to come through. Then at that point, I would refer to an early interceptive orthodontist. [00:42:40] So we have Doctor Yasmin George who works for us. She’s amazing. I know a few, you know doctor [00:42:45] she’s amazing. There’s lots you know doctor Stefan Decker there’s a few early interceptive orthodontists [00:42:50] who will try and expand the palate at that point to then optimise, optimise [00:42:55] the space the teeth to come through, but also open up, you know.

Payman Langroudi: With a with a device. So that’s a [00:43:00] device maxillary.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Um expansion.

Meghan Chard: Expansion. Yeah. Um so at that point [00:43:05] and then, you know, you let the teeth come through and then, you know, hopefully there’s more, there’s less, less crowding [00:43:10] less need less chance of needing teeth taken out. So that’s obviously amazing. Um, [00:43:15] so it depends on what.

Payman Langroudi: What age group can you do that in. Rapid maxillary expansion.

Meghan Chard: I think I mean [00:43:20] it depends. It depends on what what your sort of um I mean I’m not an expert. [00:43:25] Can I just point out on this. You know, I’m obviously learning as well.

Payman Langroudi: As you send it to them and they.

Meghan Chard: Said to them, yeah, but I mean it depends [00:43:30] on what it depends on the nature of the child. You know, I think if you’re, if your child’s really compliant, then maybe [00:43:35] five, you could even do it from. Yeah, but I think usually 7 or 8 is probably a good age because they’re kind of [00:43:40] a bit more aware and a bit more compliant at that point. Like my daughter is going to go for it. I’m going to get her a expanded. [00:43:45]

Payman Langroudi: Much of intercepted you. I don’t know if you know this, but how much of interceptive orthodontics [00:43:50] is airway led and and how much of it is actually like alignment [00:43:55] led.

Meghan Chard: Or linked though. That’s the thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But but but when, when they see a patient or [00:44:00] orthodontists onto the airway question.

Meghan Chard: Are orthodontists in general. Yeah. [00:44:05] Um, I mean I don’t want to speak out of turn or anything like that. So, um, I think [00:44:10] it’s becoming more and more commonplace. Yeah. But I think the issue is the NHS is so like integrally [00:44:15] tied into orthodontics that it’s tricky.

Payman Langroudi: You can’t get any of this on the [00:44:20] NHS.

Meghan Chard: You can’t know. That’s the thing. Um and it’s really tricky because, you know, I think if money [00:44:25] was no object and in an ideal world and we lived in an ideal world, you know, all children [00:44:30] would be assessed by 6 or 7. And then in America they do that. You have your first orthodontic orthodontic assessment [00:44:35] by seven. So in the UK, that’s what I would, you know, I would love to see happen, but [00:44:40] there isn’t the funding for that. That’s the issue. Um so orthodontists hands are tied. Um and then the [00:44:45] issue is even if you do expand the arches, they may still need orthodontics later. So it’s [00:44:50] quite expensive. Um and again, not everyone can afford that. But in an ideal world, I [00:44:55] think you would start early, expand as much as you can, and then hope that everything [00:45:00] you know is optimum and you don’t need people. Children don’t need extra well or less. Children [00:45:05] need extractions and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: I guess it depends on the percentage of those that actually do benefit. [00:45:10] Yeah, that would make the big difference as to whether or not you’d sort of screen everyone. If [00:45:15] we’re talking from the alignment perspective. Yeah. But the airway perspective.

Meghan Chard: From the airway perspective, because I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:20] much more compelling.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, 100% because it’s, it’s wellbeing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: It’s like a, it’s how [00:45:25] your, it’s your body, you know, it’s, you know, by just nasal breathing alone, you get 18% more oxygen. [00:45:30] So, you know, oxygen is like it’s your powerhouse, right? It’s your energy source.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so [00:45:35] last week I was, I was, I was in Sweden and, um, our business [00:45:40] development manager gave me one of those stickers to put on my nose.

Meghan Chard: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: To open my nostrils. And [00:45:45] I had the best night’s sleep ever. Yeah. I loved it. Yeah. I got on Amazon and bought, like, 100 of them. Um, [00:45:50] is that a thing?

Meghan Chard: I’ve not. Do you know what.

Payman Langroudi: Is.

Meghan Chard: That? No, I think it is. I mean, [00:45:55] I’ve never used them because I feel I’ve got quite good nasal. Yeah. Like patency I suppose. [00:46:00] Um but I. Yeah. People swear by them and I’ve mouth taped a few times. Um I’ve [00:46:05] quite often I mouth tape not every night because sometimes I’ve got that many lotions and potions on [00:46:10] my face. It won’t stick to my oils. Um, you know, mouth [00:46:15] tape.

Payman Langroudi: Kids, do you ask, do you tell parents that they should do that?

Meghan Chard: I don’t know. I mean, I wouldn’t tell anyone to do that [00:46:20] because it’s like I just but but it.

Payman Langroudi: Seems a bit.

Meghan Chard: Much. I’ve done it on my own kids. Oh. Have you? That’s my kids and that’s my [00:46:25] responsibility. Yeah. Um, but I won’t tell anyone else’s. You wouldn’t. I wouldn’t do it in a dental professional Like [00:46:30] capacity. No way. Because I just think like. But even you can, [00:46:35] but I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. If not us, who who’s going to do it?

Meghan Chard: No, I know, but I think there’s so much like, you [00:46:40] know, like you need to make sure, you know, Nick can easily breathe. And, you know, there’s all this, like, what if they’re sick in [00:46:45] the night and, you know, all this sort of stuff. But I mean, I’ve, I’ve done it with my kids. Um, [00:46:50] and it’s been fine. And I, and I know people who have done it with their kids and they’ve had really positive responses [00:46:55] from it. Um, but I as a dentist, not saying that, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:47:00] get it.

Meghan Chard: And that’s just my personal sort of thing.

Payman Langroudi: And so tell me about the association with this, with [00:47:05] this product, what in what capacity are you associated?

Meghan Chard: So kind of a consultant for them in a way. [00:47:10] Yeah. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And how did it come about?

Meghan Chard: I know it’s a bit random, but [00:47:15] basically so, you know, it kind of all started, I did a snoring course when I, you know, a couple of years ago [00:47:20] for adults. So I’ve always kind of been interested in the airway space. And I’ve known Doctor Yasmin [00:47:25] for a while. In fact, Simon had his first job with Yasmin. Oh, really? And so we’ve [00:47:30] always known she’s been into early interceptive orthodontics and how it’s kind of linked with like bedwetting and things like [00:47:35] that. So I’ve always found that whole thing really interesting. And then I read Breath by [00:47:40] James Nestor. Have you read that?

Payman Langroudi: Well, yeah, we had someone on who was talking a lot about it. I haven’t read it. Oh.

Meghan Chard: Jamie, [00:47:45] you probably have. Jamie. Anyway, um, it’s an amazing book, I love it. I’ve read it several times. It’s [00:47:50] really, it’s fascinating. Um, and so I’ve kind of got into that. And then my second, my [00:47:55] middle child is a thumbsucker. So like, you know, it kind of stresses me out as a dentist [00:48:00] because I have no control over it. I’ve tried everything and I can’t get him to stop it. And his palate is so high, [00:48:05] narrow, and his teeth are like, he’s got an anterior open bite and his teeth are crowded at the front. And I and I’m [00:48:10] like, I know too much.

Payman Langroudi: I know.

Meghan Chard: Too much. I wish I didn’t know as much. So it causes me [00:48:15] a lot of stress. Um, anyway, we were um, in Portugal about two years ago [00:48:20] and um, we went for lunch with Miguel, and Miguel suddenly went for lunch with Miguel and his family. [00:48:25] And my son, um, was sucking his thumb.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: And we were talking, you know, about airways [00:48:30] and things like that. Um, and then and I was saying I was interested in and actually Miguel’s been [00:48:35] involved with this company, um, for a while and he was saying, oh, this company’s amazing. My children are [00:48:40] wearing this device. It does this, it does that, you know, and he’s.

Payman Langroudi: So ahead of his time, isn’t.

Meghan Chard: He? I know he’s yeah, [00:48:45] he’s very inspirational.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like we’re all going to be doing dentistry. Like Miguel’s been doing like in 20 years time [00:48:50] or something. Exactly.

Meghan Chard: He’s going to be doing it in a rocket or something then. Um. [00:48:55]

Payman Langroudi: And so his kids were on the same device.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And so he got me, he kind of [00:49:00] introduced me to the CEO, um, Leslie of B boy. And they’re called.

Payman Langroudi: An American company.

Meghan Chard: An American company. [00:49:05] They’re called Atherton. And actually Leslie is the daughter of the founder and he’s [00:49:10] a professor, Professor Burgess. And he was a specialist orthodontist. So he designed he created these [00:49:15] in the 1960s. Um, and he, you know, he studied like cephalometric cephalometric [00:49:20] radiographs, like the growth of children. Like he really knows what he’s talking about. So he created these [00:49:25] appliances. And then he’s kind of it’s a family business. And I just love their ethos. Like they genuinely do [00:49:30] really care. And they, you know, they, they like, they’ve been evolving this appliance over the last [00:49:35] however many decades. And so I kind of really aligned with their values, um. [00:49:40]

Payman Langroudi: Different ones. Or are they all the same appliance?

Meghan Chard: There are different appliances. So [00:49:45] there’s, there’s some, there’s a habit. The one that I’m sort of like trying to educate people on is a habit [00:49:50] corrector. Mhm. Um, and there are several different types, um, different brands [00:49:55] available. Um, I’ve chosen, I think, uh, b boy is [00:50:00] um, is different to anything else in the market because it’s got myofunctional therapy inbuilt [00:50:05] within the device. Whereas with other devices, you need to have myofunctional therapy exercises alongside [00:50:10] it, which is not necessarily a bad thing. You know, it is good to have myofunctional therapy is, is really, really important. [00:50:15] But at the same time, you know, um, compliance is really, I know that I personally, [00:50:20] I’m so busy with my kids and my life that I just, I’ve got homework to do this and that. It’s like [00:50:25] another thing to think about, and I get that. And whereas so when it’s inbuilt within the device, when [00:50:30] the child is wearing it at night and they’re swallowing hundreds of times a night, they’re doing these little kind of myofunctional [00:50:35] therapy exercises. So that’s why I think it’s quite unique.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a mandibular advancement.

Meghan Chard: It’s [00:50:40] not advancement. It holds. It’s a class one. It holds the child, but it stops it from slipping backwards. [00:50:45] So hold it in a class one position and then it encourages more forward growth, [00:50:50] which is better for the airways.

Payman Langroudi: And encourages the tongue up.

Meghan Chard: It puts the tongue up and it encourages the tongue [00:50:55] to swallow in the right way as well, which is which is really important because the tongue.

Payman Langroudi: And that itself [00:51:00] makes expansion of the.

Meghan Chard: Tongue. The tongue is like nature’s natural palate expander.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:51:05]

Meghan Chard: So when you’re swallowing, it’s such a thick, heavy, strong muscle that when you’re swallowing properly, [00:51:10] it kind of that continuous light pressure helps to.

Payman Langroudi: And how long, how long does the treatment last? How [00:51:15] long does it take? How many months do they have to wear that?

Meghan Chard: Well, I think they say treatment is kind of well, [00:51:20] they say like you need to wear it about for a year or so, but, um, it kind of depends. [00:51:25] You know, it depends. It’s not every child is different and some lips are really flaccid and, [00:51:30] but even then it’s kind of like even after a year or so, the child gets such benefit [00:51:35] from it and feels like they’ve had such a good night’s sleep from it. It’s kind of really comforting.

Payman Langroudi: Oh they continue.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. They continue [00:51:40] to wear it because it’s like it’s directing everything. It’s still helping. Uh, you know, it’s helping to put the tongue [00:51:45] in the right way and direct, you know, forward growth of the airways. Um, and, um, [00:51:50] also the amazing thing about it is that it’s not custom made, it’s stock. So it’ll actually last. So, you know, you [00:51:55] don’t have to take impressions every six months. It’ll last them. So for example, it ranges from 2 [00:52:00] to 4 and then 4 to 6.

Payman Langroudi: When there is it kind of boil and bite. [00:52:05] No, no just no.

Meghan Chard: And it’s it’s made like, no, it’s not, it’s not silicone. [00:52:10] It’s not, it’s not, you know, it’s not no far, it’s no, you know, um, BPA, it’s [00:52:15] like non-hazardous. Um, again, which I think makes it different from other appliances on the [00:52:20] market, I think. And it’s made an American factory. Yeah. So basically it’s 4 to 6. And then when [00:52:25] the child’s first adult molars come through, then it’s six plus, and then that child has that appliance until [00:52:30] their second molars come through. So you can have, you can have that, you know, say the second molars come through in the 10 [00:52:35] or 12. You can have that appliance for 4 to 6 years technically. And because it’s, it’s, [00:52:40] it’s like it’s just one device, you know. So that’s why, that’s why I think it’s great because it can last them a few years. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: And what does success looks like? Well, the child’s having better sleep and all that. Exactly. What does failure look [00:52:50] like? I mean, do some cases not work?

Meghan Chard: I guess compliance can be an issue. You know, you’re dealing with children so [00:52:55] compliance can be an issue. Um, and then, you know, I think so. So one study was done [00:53:00] with this device, um, on over 220 children. And [00:53:05] out of those 220 children, 75% of the cases improved, their symptoms improved. And they, [00:53:10] they investigated symptoms such as headaches, sore throats, um, bedwetting, um, [00:53:15] you know, sweating, you know, tooth teeth grinding. It was 2000 symptoms altogether, and [00:53:20] in total, of all the children and 75% of cases had an improvement, which [00:53:25] is amazing. And out of those symptoms, 38% had a 100% correction. So completely [00:53:30] went. However, 75% means that 25% didn’t notice anything. [00:53:35] So you have to always explain to parents, and I always explain to parents, look, this works in most people. Most [00:53:40] children, um, if they’ve got symptoms, obviously, if they’ve not got symptoms and they [00:53:45] don’t need it, um, but you’d make them um complete a sleep questionnaire first. So obviously [00:53:50] they have to, they have to be positive on certain things to make to, to, to show that they actually have, [00:53:55] you know, a strong signs of sleep disordered breathing. Um, and so yeah, I always explain [00:54:00] to patients to parents that, you know, in 75% of cases it’ll improve, but there’s always a, [00:54:05] there’s always a chance it might not. So you have to take the risk, obviously with that.

Payman Langroudi: And so you’ve been doing it long enough to see [00:54:10] some kids then thrive.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. You know, I’m still early on in it all. You know, I’ve [00:54:15] I’ve you know, so as I say, I’m my disclaimer is I’m not an expert. There’s people out there who’ve had [00:54:20] way more experience and things like that. But, you know, you’ve got to start somewhere. And I’m just passionate about getting the message out. And [00:54:25] do you know what I’m going to use, Simon? Use all the hard work that Simon’s done. You know, [00:54:30] he’s got his platform and you know, just just helps get the word out there basically. So, [00:54:35] um, yeah, I mean, I’ve had one, I’ve had several cases, but one particular case, um, [00:54:40] he was struggling with English, sorry, struggling with his reading and writing. Um, [00:54:45] he was very fidgety and difficulty in focusing at class. So [00:54:50] they gave him a stand up desk and he was to be assessed for ADHD. He [00:54:55] would sort of wet the bed every month. He would have sore throats, tonsillitis every couple of months, needing antibiotics, [00:55:00] time off school. Um, he, his mum would report his sleeping, [00:55:05] you know, he was very sweaty, very restless. Would knock things off the shelves up in the night, [00:55:10] wake up. Unrefreshed dark circles under his eyes. Um, and then basically [00:55:15] after like six and a half months, seven months of wearing the bee bite, um, he has had not one bedwetting [00:55:20] episode, not one sore throat. I’ve seen him for like a year and a half review now. [00:55:25] He’s never had tonsillitis since wearing the bee bite. Um, when he was having it every other month. He’s [00:55:30] not wet the bed once.

Payman Langroudi: Um and the mum, the mum’s attributing all of this to the mums like. [00:55:35]

Meghan Chard: Yes, like.

Payman Langroudi: He wakes up.

Meghan Chard: Feeling. Yeah. Honestly, I literally it makes me teary. Like he wakes up feeling [00:55:40] refreshed. He has won, uh, the headmaster’s award coming on leaps and bounds with his English, his [00:55:45] reading and his writing. I’m like, it’s incredible because I guess you’re just giving someone a good night’s sleep. Basically. [00:55:50] I’ve had another another case, for example, has had has eczema and the mums [00:55:55] tried like loads of different creams over the years.

Payman Langroudi: Steroids.

Meghan Chard: Everything, nothing worked. You know, just [00:56:00] after one month of wearing the bee bite, the kid was like, I’m less itchy. Like, isn’t that [00:56:05] mad? And again, school reports like the parents evening, normally the child’s like a bit sort of, you [00:56:10] know, not listening very well, you know. A bit fidgety, a bit distracted, really positive teachers [00:56:15] reports and things like that, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I can imagine someone listening to this feeling very [00:56:20] sceptical about all this. Yeah. But at the same time, when you take it back to.

Meghan Chard: The basics of [00:56:25] what it.

Payman Langroudi: Is, a good night’s sleep for a child. Yeah, it’s completely foundational. [00:56:30] It makes sense, doesn’t it? A good night’s sleep. Water nutrition. Yeah, exactly. A bit of [00:56:35] brain and exercise.

Meghan Chard: That’s.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. That’s all a kid needs. You know, there’s those things [00:56:40] we’re talking about one of the four pillars of childhood. And then you really would [00:56:45] think anything’s possible with a better night’s sleep.

Meghan Chard: I mean, if you’re if I’m in a funky mood [00:56:50] or I feel a bit low or something, I just I just know I need a good night’s sleep. I just know I need to go to bed early, [00:56:55] get a good night’s sleep, and the next day I’ll be a different person. Yeah, it just makes you bring it back to [00:57:00] the basics. It just makes sense. You know.

Payman Langroudi: Once I didn’t sleep for two nights in a row [00:57:05] cramming for finals or something, cramming for something. It was some exam. Two nights in a [00:57:10] row. Yeah. We found these caffeine tablets if you’ve ever tried them.

Meghan Chard: The pro [00:57:15] plus ones.

Payman Langroudi: On the second night, they weren’t working anymore. And then someone, someone [00:57:20] found this, like this orange powder. That was for, like, bodybuilders. Yeah, but [00:57:25] it was, it was it kept you awake. It kept you awake. So I had that.

Meghan Chard: But were you even productive, though? I [00:57:30] mean.

Payman Langroudi: This was this was going to say the reason we did two nights in a row was because it was two exams [00:57:35] in a row. The first one, I was like, thank God, because, you know, there was no way I would [00:57:40] have passed. Yeah, I needed that night. Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Just to kind of get the last bit in.

Payman Langroudi: But the second one I [00:57:45] was, it was all surgery. And the question was differential diagnosis of a swelling in the palate. [00:57:50] Yeah, I was writing bullshit. Yeah. I knew I was writing bullshit, but I couldn’t [00:57:55] stop myself. It was almost like an inhibitory mechanism wasn’t kicking in. You know, like, you [00:58:00] know, like, I don’t know if maybe this is just me. You know, you’re driving your car and you think, should I just drive straight into an oncoming car? [00:58:05] And you think, no, no, I better not. You know that inhibitory thing? Yeah. That [00:58:10] wasn’t kicking in. Yeah, I was writing crap. I wasn’t even using like, like medical terms. [00:58:15] I was like, yeah, if you have a hot pizza and stuff.

Meghan Chard: But [00:58:20] I mean, I have either that is why.

Payman Langroudi: Two night’s sleep.

Meghan Chard: It’s like the Japanese is a form of torture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, [00:58:25] yeah, yeah. You’re right. And then, you know, people who take their own lives often can’t [00:58:30] sleep.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And again, I’m sure there’s an inhibitory thing going on.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:58:35] yeah, I’m sure it affects everything. I want to talk about parlour. [00:58:40]

Meghan Chard: Um.

Payman Langroudi: How’s that been for you guys? I mean, it’s a I’m [00:58:45] in toothpaste, right? It’s a bloody hard business. Bloody hard. Anything that’s [00:58:50] like, you know, £10, you have to sell hundreds of thousands of them.

Meghan Chard: It makes dentistry look so much [00:58:55] like easy, doesn’t it? In some ways. Like you just do a filling. Yeah. How many, how many, how many, how many toothpaste [00:59:00] tubes is a filling?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The lovely thing about a dental practice is you need about, you need to convert [00:59:05] about a thousand people’s opinions. Yeah. And you’re done. Yeah. If a thousand people love [00:59:10] you, you can have an amazing Dental practice or practice or whatever. But in a business [00:59:15] like that, literally, you need to move the market. Yeah. Um, and I [00:59:20] remember when we started the first six years were disgusting. I mean, disgusting, [00:59:25] terrible. We were literally firefighting for the whole of that time. [00:59:30]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I can, I can, I can very much, you know, imagine relate that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:59:35] tell me. Yeah. Tell me about that. The what [00:59:40] did you think it was going to be like before you started? What was it like as you started the, [00:59:45] the. Simon told me the moment. The moment it got into boots, he thought that was the end of it. And [00:59:50] he thought. He thought that.

Meghan Chard: Was.

Payman Langroudi: Everything’s everything’s over. He’s made.

Meghan Chard: It. Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah [00:59:55] yeah yeah, exactly.

Meghan Chard: Um, do you know Simon gets his ideas? And I was kind of let [01:00:00] him go with it. You know, he gets lots and lots of ideas. Like sometimes this is kind of a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Of a it’s a massive strength, [01:00:05] by the way.

Meghan Chard: Oh, it’s amazing, honestly.

Payman Langroudi: Of yours, of yours to let him.

Meghan Chard: To.

Payman Langroudi: Let.

Meghan Chard: Him go. [01:00:10]

Payman Langroudi: Go for it. Yeah. Like you could have, you could have just extinguished that flame in a moment if you wanted [01:00:15] to. Right.

Meghan Chard: You know? Yeah. But, you know, I think that’s why I obviously love love about being [01:00:20] with Simon. You know, like, um, I feel like I’m on, like, a rocket ship, to [01:00:25] be honest. I’m strapped in and, you know, I think for me, you know, [01:00:30] you know, this has. So for me, just to be a dentist was basically my ultimate goal. [01:00:35] Right. And for me, I was like, I’ve made it. I’ve done it right. That’s like his. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: Boots.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I was happy with that. And I genuinely was so happy. I was like, right, jump through all these hoops I’ve got [01:00:45] there now. I’m so happy. I’m so proud. That’s great. And I’d be happy. [01:00:50] I would have been happy plodding along, but I would have probably lived a very ploddy life and a very like [01:00:55] autopilot life, to be honest. Um, happy, but like a bit, but not living [01:01:00] to my full, full potential. And I feel like with being with Cy, he keeps pushing [01:01:05] our like boundaries to the next step, which is amazing because now the [01:01:10] life that I’m living now is something that I could never have even imagined. Like I literally [01:01:15] am living my best life, you know? I’m so lucky. Um, and but he keeps pushing [01:01:20] even still, you know, which is a blessing and a curse in some ways. I can imagine. Um, but for me, [01:01:25] I’m just happy to go along with the ride because it’s not my mental headspace thinking about this. I’m [01:01:30] just like the OP. So if Cy has an idea, I’ll just kind of go along with it. But it doesn’t [01:01:35] like, like I’ll take one step at a time and go along with it. But I’m not, it’s not the [01:01:40] headspace for me to like, be thinking about all this, you know? Yeah. Um, so, um, yeah, [01:01:45] so my point is, sorry, I digress here. So my point is, yeah, when Cy had this idea with, you know, [01:01:50] the toothpaste. And to be fair, my caveat is like actually at uni, he did say he always wanted to [01:01:55] make his own toothpaste toothpaste. I remember like, you know, studying and.

Payman Langroudi: I was a BS just now and [01:02:00] I bet a thousand people want to make their own.

Meghan Chard: Tv. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Doing it.

Meghan Chard: That’s exactly [01:02:05] so. Well, exactly. So when he said, you know, when he said he was going to do it, I was kind [01:02:10] of like, okay, fine. You know, I didn’t really think much of it. I just thought, you know, he’ll try it and that’s it. But [01:02:15] because he’s trying to do something else before in the past, he tries to do some smoothies, I guess, make a smoothie with his brother. [01:02:20] Do you know about that?

Payman Langroudi: I remember I met his brother, it’s.

Meghan Chard: A great name. Blends with, blends with benefits. [01:02:25] It’s quite good. And we used to do all the tastings. I know he’s got this entrepreneurial sort of [01:02:30] spirit, so I just thought, let’s just, you know, you know, I encourage it because, you know, I otherwise [01:02:35] he’ll just leave a very he’d lead a very bloody life with me otherwise. So I let him just like fulfil [01:02:40] that sort of, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But, but okay. But so then they started. But I want to get into the [01:02:45] sacrifice that, that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don’t know, every time we bring a new product out, I [01:02:50] feel like the whole year before that, and particularly the final [01:02:55] 2 or 3 months before the product comes out, this massive sacrifice. I mean, there’s [01:03:00] brain time that’s going to it. There’s missing stuff. There’s meetings where you don’t know what the hell [01:03:05] you’re talking about. Yeah. I mean, the hopes and dreams. Agony and ecstasy. Yeah, [01:03:10] that comes with it.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So it’s honestly an emotional roller coaster.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you [01:03:15] have some amazing highs, like incredible highs. You also have a lot of lows. Yeah. So it is an emotional [01:03:20] roller coaster. But I’m really proud. So a lot of sacrifice. You know we’ve got three young kids. So he [01:03:25] he tries to be as disciplined as he can. But like on holiday, like you can’t ever switch off. And [01:03:30] we have that with our practice as well. We always you know, it’s hard to switch off anyway. But you have that and [01:03:35] parlour. So we’ll have to do certain things whilst on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Credit you guys with the [01:03:40] reason why we took 80% of the plastic out of our Evo.

Meghan Chard: For what [01:03:45] what from like inspo sort of like from parlour, you mean.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but actually it [01:03:50] was you. It was me. Yeah, me. Yeah, it was you. Because we were somewhere and [01:03:55] I said, hey, you’re doing this, environmentally friendly thing, right. And then you said [01:04:00] something like, every time I throw some plastic in the bin, it makes my heart race. [01:04:05] Yeah. And I said, really? And you went, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, kids, I’ve got kids. [01:04:10] And. And when I saw I saw that up to that point, I was thinking, oh, these guys are jumping on some [01:04:15] green bandwagon. Yeah. You know, at the time I remember like green became an issue. [01:04:20]

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. There were the pictures of the, the.

Meghan Chard: The turtle and the straws and yeah. But it just kills [01:04:25] me.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s emotive. It is emotive. But but I’d seen the picture of the turtle as well. But [01:04:30] then when you you said you really feel it and, and you weren’t, you know, messing around like you [01:04:35] meant it. Yeah. And I saw that and I went, oh, shit. It’s real. Like, this is real. And then [01:04:40] we were doing the next version of evolution and we said, look, let’s take as much plastic out of it as [01:04:45] possible.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. That’s great.

Payman Langroudi: So yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s good. Well, you know, no, I mean, I try and be as eco [01:04:50] friendly as possible at home. Yeah. Genuinely, you know, have compostable cloths, you know, like just yeah, just, [01:04:55] you know, like I buy bars of soap and, you know, cardboard, like don’t buy plastic hand soaps and, you know, just [01:05:00] try, you just try what you can, you know, that’s all you can do, really.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get to the darker part of this [01:05:05] pod.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: We like to talk about mistakes, clinical mistakes. But I kind [01:05:10] of want to. Before we do, I want to hear about what would you class as your darkest day from [01:05:15] the professional perspective in this ten year, ten years, eight years, eight years. [01:05:20] When did you.

Meghan Chard: Call it holding a practice or qualifying for 14 years. Oh, really? [01:05:25] Uh, yeah. 14 years.

Payman Langroudi: Old enough. Thank you. So, [01:05:30] yeah.

Meghan Chard: So there’s lotions and potions.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Toothpaste.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind when [01:05:35] when I, when I say that what the darkest days in this journey.

Meghan Chard: Um, I mean, Covid [01:05:40] is pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: Oh yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s pretty dark.

Payman Langroudi: So after you bought the place, right.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:05:45]

Meghan Chard: That was two years. So you still trying to find your feet? And [01:05:50] I mean the stress of that. I mean, that was quite, you know, before you knew everything, you know, once you got into the swing of [01:05:55] things, you’re right.

Payman Langroudi: But once the word furlough came.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And like we were like, honestly, you know. Well, yeah, exactly. [01:06:00] Before furlough though. So I remember in March, we actually closed. We actually closed, decided to close the practice before [01:06:05] we were even told to close the practice because all the staff were panicking. Yeah. And we were like, we’re gonna [01:06:10] close the practice. I remember me and sign looking at our bank account being like, okay, right. How many months can we pay the staff [01:06:15] for? Like, like, how much have we got in the bank to pay the staff? And, and we were like, we’re [01:06:20] crying because we’re like, okay, we can only do a couple of months, really only two years into owning a practice. And we’re [01:06:25] like, and then you’re also like, and how, how are we going to survive? Like, what are we going to do? And, you know, furlough [01:06:30] hadn’t even been mentioned at that point. And you were thinking, oh my God. So that was really like, I remember we was [01:06:35] crying. We were just non-stop crying at that, like that day. That was.

Payman Langroudi: Hard. We had all our team up here and [01:06:40] we said, we’ve got two choices. We lose half of you or everyone takes pay cut. [01:06:45] Yeah. And they said, oh, everyone take a pay cut.

Meghan Chard: Oh that’s good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know it was that was that.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. It [01:06:50] was really bad. And then furlough fellow came in and you’re like, oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: You guys had NHS income or you weren’t even sure.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, we did have [01:06:55] NHS. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You weren’t.

Meghan Chard: Sure about. No, we didn’t know about that until later.

Payman Langroudi: Income at.

Meghan Chard: That point. No, no, [01:07:00] that’s what I mean. We didn’t um you know it was fine in the end. But [01:07:05] before you knew about all that, it was totally not fine. And then there was the threat of us going to the Nightingale. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Oh of course.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. We were like having to go to the we were having all these emails saying, you’re gonna have to go in. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: Such a crazy.

Meghan Chard: Time. And we were like, oh my God, we’re gonna die. Even though we wouldn’t have died because it’s Covid, it’s like, [01:07:20] you know, we’re fit and healthy. It’s fine.

Payman Langroudi: But I remember I bought these FFP, whatever, three. I remember [01:07:25] that. Yeah, I bought these.

Meghan Chard: And the fit testing and all that.

Payman Langroudi: I bought these ten masks, ten [01:07:30] for £160, £16 each.

Meghan Chard: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God. Yeah. [01:07:35] To give to my brother who’s a doctor. Um just to, to wear in, in hospital. [01:07:40] Yeah. He went in with one and they told him he’s not allowed to wear it because [01:07:45] everyone else hasn’t got one. And then I think it was like [01:07:50] six days later, six days later, he wasn’t allowed not to wear it.

Meghan Chard: It was.

Payman Langroudi: A complete [01:07:55] it.

Meghan Chard: Was a it was a shit show.

Payman Langroudi: But the nice thing about Covid is that that massive [01:08:00] peak after Covid.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: None of us really expected. Yeah. Was extraordinary. [01:08:05] And so when you think back to Covid, you always had that feeling as well. The nice feeling.

Meghan Chard: So sunny [01:08:10] as.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Yeah. Yeah yeah. That’s right.

Meghan Chard: Like the garden. Uh, no, but that was like, that was like one of the, that was the darkest [01:08:15] day. And then I mean, I mean, there’s been lots of ups and downs. Um, I mean, [01:08:20] you know, I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: What we like at Dental school. Did you, did you find it easy or did you find it [01:08:25] hard?

Meghan Chard: You know, I.

Payman Langroudi: Who finds it easy.

Meghan Chard: I know I find it quite hard, [01:08:30] but I was like I came from I went to a state school. So [01:08:35] I had this sort of had this sort of chip on my shoulder, to be honest with you, that like.

Payman Langroudi: An inferiority.

Meghan Chard: Complex. Yeah. [01:08:40] And I remember the first week my sister was a lawyer and she worked in bank across the road from London [01:08:45] Bridge. So I remember after the first week there was this panic. Everyone went to the library and were getting all these books out [01:08:50] and I was like, oh, I don’t know what book to get. So I literally went to the library and I got like, honestly, the worst. I don’t even know [01:08:55] what books I got, but they were like thick, thick, heavy anatomy textbooks. And I put in my bag. The [01:09:00] bag was like carrying basically a bag of bricks. And I remember panicking. And I remember like, [01:09:05] after the first week, I went and met my sister for a drink. And I remember I just sobbed and cried and I was like, I’m [01:09:10] not clever enough to be here. I’m not good enough to be here. It’s quite teary. I was like, I’m not. I’m not [01:09:15] clever enough to be here. Shouldn’t be here. Because like, I was just so not used to like all these, all this confidence [01:09:20] and like, you know, when you go to a state school and everyone else has went to private [01:09:25] school, you do have this inferiority complex, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve heard that before [01:09:30] from people.

Meghan Chard: So yeah, it’s like, and I’m not saying, oh, feel good private school, like it’s not like that, but [01:09:35] they have this like.

Payman Langroudi: And then you go out with the poshest guy on the planet. Yeah, exactly.

Meghan Chard: And he goes the [01:09:40] roughest girl on the, you know, you know, the, you know, the Irish, Mancunian and [01:09:45] and um but you know, so I, but it was good in some ways because it really pushed [01:09:50] me to work hard. Yeah. And you know, I, I actually graduated second in the year [01:09:55] in the end. Um, so I was really proud of myself that way. But again, like always, like I always [01:10:00] after every exam, I thought I failed it, every exam, I was crying, I failed, I failed it and didn’t fail. I got like, you [01:10:05] know, like I did really well in it. So it’s just a constant like inferiority thing that I, I’ve had [01:10:10] to kind of develop like just kind of work with and overcome.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s such [01:10:15] an interesting thing because my, my daughter’s about to go to a levels and she’s in this [01:10:20] French school in.

Meghan Chard: French.

Payman Langroudi: School. Yeah. In South Kensington. And by its [01:10:25] very nature, the French people who decide to come to London tend to be like hotshot bankers. [01:10:30] Yeah, yeah. So she’s been surrounded by these rich people throughout school. Yeah. [01:10:35] As I was, as I was. But then now she did an entrance [01:10:40] exam for this school for underprivileged children.

Meghan Chard: Really.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s very unlikely [01:10:45] she’s going to get in.

Meghan Chard: It’s turned around now. It’s flipped, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’s very unlikely she’s going to get into that school because [01:10:50] the first four sort of qualifiers she doesn’t qualify for. Yeah. So they’ve said yeah if [01:10:55] you if you have to pay for your school meals, if you do this, if you do that, if you qualify, and then there’s a number [01:11:00] five, which is like, if you’re a complete genius, you know, and there’s like 800 to 1 trying to [01:11:05] get that one. Yeah. And we were having this discussion of, let’s imagine she gets in. Yeah. [01:11:10] It’s a very good school. They send loads of people to Oxford and Cambridge. Let’s imagine she gets in. Should she go or shouldn’t she [01:11:15] go, you know. And my wife was saying, well.

Meghan Chard: Well, because they’re kind of getting any [01:11:20] as in because it could they’re basically prioritising underprivileged over [01:11:25] intelligence.

Payman Langroudi: Well no, no there is they’re all very intelligent.

Meghan Chard: Okay. So there has to be intelligent. [01:11:30]

Payman Langroudi: Should she carry on where she is being surrounded by these super dupers banker’s children? You know, [01:11:35] those are the people who are going to inspire her. Or should she go to a school where everyone around her is underprivileged? [01:11:40] Yeah. And I was saying she’s she’s already done the banker piece. [01:11:45] Let her do the underprivileged piece, you know, to see the someone who’s got whose parents haven’t [01:11:50] been able to give him everything she’s had, who’s managed to be even cleverer than she is. And [01:11:55] but my wife was saying, no, no. Um, you know that 17, 18 is when you [01:12:00] really want to be inspired by the people around you. And for her point, it was I wouldn’t have [01:12:05] started enlightened if I wasn’t surrounded by my buddies who had conglomerates all over the world. You know, there’s this sort of question. [01:12:10] Yeah, yeah. You know, what you’re speaking to is, you know, I lived with one of [01:12:15] my partners and enlighten, you know, the guy had nowhere near the privilege that [01:12:20] I had. And he inspires me. He inspired he was top of our our class. [01:12:25] Yeah. And I was scraping through, you know. Yeah. So it’s an interesting question. [01:12:30]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s difficult because you want to you don’t want to muddy cuddle your child either. Do you want to like, but [01:12:35] then you also want because I think I think um it’s [01:12:40] the connections as well are really important. I think you don’t underestimate who you know, and the [01:12:45] connections and not necessarily they give you a leg up, but like, it’s just, it’s important to say inspiration [01:12:50] or aspiration. I think, um, yeah, I don’t know. I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:12:55] did you get over the, let’s call it inferiority complex by coming top of your class?

Meghan Chard: Like, yeah, [01:13:00] I think I think fix.

Payman Langroudi: It for you.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, I think that, yeah. But funny enough, I won an award. So [01:13:05] they kind of give you awards, you know, once you’ve graduated, whatever. And I didn’t check [01:13:10] what the award was for. I just kind of was like, um, so I didn’t know I came second in the year by the way. Oh, [01:13:15] I see, um, I just knew I graduated with honours, whatever it was. So I didn’t know I came second [01:13:20] in the year and I received the Saunders Award and I was like, oh great. Yeah. And [01:13:25] um, it was only when I was like, what was the award for? I was like, oh, I don’t know. He like rang up for me and [01:13:30] was like, what’s the Saunders Award for? And they’re like, oh, it’s for coming second in the year. And I was like, wow, I like, you [01:13:35] know, I did not even know that. So yeah, I think that that really helped.

Payman Langroudi: Not a joke in King’s coming second. [01:13:40]

Meghan Chard: Well, well, hold on to it until I’m like. I’ve done nothing since then, but I’ve got to hold on to that [01:13:45] till I’m like, on my deathbed, you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit mad, though, that your aunt was president of Ireland [01:13:50] and you still had an inferiority complex. Is it crazy? Um, I get I get it. [01:13:55] Yeah. So your aunt could be whoever. You still have an inferiority?

Meghan Chard: Exactly. Auntie. My auntie. Like [01:14:00] I’m incredibly proud of her. Like, from where she’s come from, where she is. And what I love about her [01:14:05] now is that, you know, she’s lived in the Arizona, in Ireland, which is basically the white House [01:14:10] is a copy of it, this big, big white House in the middle of Phoenix Park. And I’ve been there like I’ve [01:14:15] stayed there. I took me there when I was dating him. I took him there because he was president for 14 years. [01:14:20] But like, she’s so down to earth. Yeah. And she like EFS and Jeff’s like, [01:14:25] she’s Irish. Obviously it’s like second language, but she EFS and Jeff’s and she’s so down to earth and, um, [01:14:30] you know, she just like would get on the bus with her like pension with her, like bus pass sort of thing. That’s what I [01:14:35] love about her. You know, they’re just like, um, yeah. Um, just genuine people.

Payman Langroudi: I encourage anyone to listen [01:14:40] to that interview that I listened to the first time I listened to, properly listened to her. I remember her being president, [01:14:45] but the first time I probably listened to it was it was a leading interview [01:14:50] with, uh, Rory, um, and Alastair, Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart. Brilliant, [01:14:55] brilliant.

Meghan Chard: She’s got some amazing stories. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So brilliant.

Meghan Chard: She was like friends, [01:15:00] not friends. Okay, let me take that back. We tried that. She wasn’t friends with Gaddafi, but [01:15:05] she’s met Gaddafi and she’s gone to stay with, um um Nelson Mandela [01:15:10] in his like villa in like Zimbabwe. She’s been there. Like the story she can tell you are unbelievable. [01:15:15] You know, when the new pope was ordained, is the Pope ordained? I don’t know, um she’s [01:15:20] Ireland, right. And that every um country’s leader was there and it’s alphabetical [01:15:25] order. So she’s Ireland. Right. And she was in between Iran and Israel. So [01:15:30] she had to be like the peacekeeper between these two people So I’m like, oh my God, [01:15:35] the stories are unreal. I bet she has got some stories. Yeah, it’s really, really funny.

Payman Langroudi: What insight have [01:15:40] you got about public life from, you know, being a being close to her?

Meghan Chard: Um. [01:15:45] What insight? She’s the queen. The queen came, you know, [01:15:50] she’s the queen around. And like.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, surely the privacy question, I mean, that must be an [01:15:55] issue, right?

Meghan Chard: I think she’s like, I think it’s I think I think being the president of Ireland [01:16:00] is quite chilled. I think people aren’t trying out to get you. I think I think everyone likes the idea. Everyone likes [01:16:05] the Irish don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah that’s true.

Meghan Chard: I don’t know about the security side of things now. Um, [01:16:10] no, I don’t think like my cousins, they don’t have any security.

Payman Langroudi: Perfectly normal.

Meghan Chard: Oh, [01:16:15] they’re so down to earth like. Like they are like absolute jokes. Like you would not know this. They’re [01:16:20] like so clever, but like, they’re so again, effing and jeffing like it’s [01:16:25] yeah, they’re so they’re lovely. They’re really down to earth, lovely people actually. Let’s get.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s get [01:16:30] to the clinical errors.

Meghan Chard: Clinical errors.

Payman Langroudi: What comes to mind if I say, you know, from that sort [01:16:35] of black box thinking, we want to learn from each other’s clinical errors rather than in medical. [01:16:40] We tend to hide our errors because blame is such a big thing. Um, whereas if [01:16:45] we could all learn from each other’s errors, then yeah, that would help everyone. What comes to mind when I say [01:16:50] that?

Meghan Chard: Um, I mean, there’s like, there’s like the safe error [01:16:55] that I could tell, you know, that there’s a safe, there’s a safe bet that I could tell you.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, kind of, I’ll probably reject that one. And then [01:17:00] we’ll have to get to the dangerous one. But go on.

Meghan Chard: Um.

Payman Langroudi: So now that you’ve put [01:17:05] it out there, I know, I know.

Meghan Chard: Um no, well it’s not even safe, but basically it [01:17:10] was really embarrassing, to be honest with you. But you know, those CCD X-ray images, [01:17:15] CCD, right? So, you know, the sensors with the with the with the wires.

Payman Langroudi: The wires back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:17:20]

Meghan Chard: We had some of those at the practice.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: And it’s really embarrassing. But basically, I mean, you might say it’s lame. [01:17:25] But anyway, I had one patient and I was taking some X-rays on her. And normally the way my surgery was [01:17:30] positioned, I’d put the X-rays in sort of behind that kind of to the side of the patients behind the [01:17:35] patient, so that the wire was in front of me. So but on this one occasion, I [01:17:40] was like, in front of the wall, I was on the side of the wire. Right. So I put the, the, [01:17:45] the right wing in and taking a bite wing X-ray and I step over the wire, but I trip over [01:17:50] the wire.

Payman Langroudi: Tug rips the thing out of his. Does he, does he get [01:17:55] hurt?

Meghan Chard: And thank God there’s no teeth or anything. But the patient’s like are obviously in agony [01:18:00] and I’m like mortified. Um, and I was like, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. [01:18:05] And then obviously I, like sent some flowers and I just but like, it was a lady. She was so nice. I [01:18:10] wrote her a letter. I said, I’m so sorry. Like I’ve learned from it. I’m now will never do that. I’ll [01:18:15] always make sure I step this side. And she was fine. She came back and saw me as a patient, so [01:18:20] it was okay. But that was like really quite mortifying at the time.

Payman Langroudi: I like that one, but I don’t I’m not [01:18:25] gonna accept it for two reasons. Number one.

Meghan Chard: I know I don’t do you know what?

Payman Langroudi: Number one. Number one. There’s [01:18:30] nothing you could have done about that. Yeah. You know that you tripped. Yeah. Okay. You could say you had a good, good [01:18:35] relationship with her. And people who like us don’t see us. Not that she’s going to sue you for tripping. Um, [01:18:40] but number two, it was a happy ending. Yeah. I’m [01:18:45] looking for a more unhappy ending from a situation that you could have had more [01:18:50] effect on.

Meghan Chard: You know.

Payman Langroudi: I’m trying to tell me something. Something [01:18:55] around it happened in your practice. It doesn’t have to be your own error. Tell me something about [01:19:00] maybe a treatment modality that you thought was great. I used to put stick veneers on everyone’s teeth, and then [01:19:05] for six years down the line, it didn’t look so good. Like something like that. Or if you’ve [01:19:10] got it in your head, the dangerous one. Just tell them. Tell me, and then we’ll cut it out.

Meghan Chard: So. [01:19:15] Well, I mean, there’s one that keeps jumping to my mind and it’s really annoying because I’m like trying to [01:19:20] suppress it and like, forget about it. Yeah, yeah. But I’m like a really honest person. So if you ask me [01:19:25] something, I can’t lie.

Payman Langroudi: Basically, I love that too.

Meghan Chard: But you know what? Like, I’ve [01:19:30] listened to some other podcasts and I think some people have been really open about it. So I think, you know what, the whole point of the question, [01:19:35] whatever. It’s fine. And yeah, it’s quite a sad ending, to be honest with you. So it’s not really [01:19:40] it’s not light-hearted or anything, but basically I had this patient who was lovely. I’d seen her [01:19:45] for a couple of years and she was a teacher and she was about to retire. And, [01:19:50] um, she had this really niggly tooth, a lower right six, uh, [01:19:55] had a furcation involvement. She had a little bit of perio ongoing, so she’d see the hygienist regularly. [01:20:00] And this lower right six had a root treated as well. And [01:20:05] she was getting like aching and pain a little bit around there and a little bit of swelling around the gum. And [01:20:10] it was ongoing for like probably a year or so. And like, you know, I kept trying to clean it and like, give it some, give [01:20:15] her some antibiotics didn’t really seem to settle, but I just didn’t think anything of it because it just because I had [01:20:20] a root canal treatment in it and it had furcation and a bit of perio. I just thought this was like an inflammatory situation. [01:20:25] Um. Oh my God, I’m feeling quite serious now actually. Um, and then [01:20:30] she went away and then it bulged [01:20:35] it like fungating essentially. Yeah. And um, and essentially, [01:20:40] uh, she came back and it was a squamous cell carcinoma. And um, basically [01:20:45] even at that, even at that point, it kind of gave it a little bit, but I still was [01:20:50] so like, sure of my, so I’ve seen squamous cell carcinomas before and I’ve referred [01:20:55] before, like white patches under the tongue and things like that.

Meghan Chard: But this was like just really threw me because, [01:21:00] because it was treated and it had furcation and a bit of perio just thought it was inflammatory. [01:21:05] So even then, I still didn’t think it was like, like cancer, the [01:21:10] big C and, um, one of my colleagues like, no, it definitely is an urgent referral. And anyway, um, [01:21:15] I felt really bad because she’d like built like she trusted me in what I, what I thought it was, I thought it was just [01:21:20] like a infection. And anyway, it turned out to be squamous cell carcinoma. And like her husband [01:21:25] basically sent me a really like. Like a really angry letter. Understandably, because she’s about to retire this person. [01:21:30] Um, and he sent me a really angry letter being like, you know, he basically thought [01:21:35] I was like incompetent essentially because I was quite young, young dentist. Um, and, you [01:21:40] know, I was like, so I literally when I found out I was like the worst day because I literally, I [01:21:45] literally, I thought I’d killed this person and, you know, like, I don’t know what [01:21:50] happened to her. In the end, she went and got her jewellery, but I never knew what happened to her. Um, but [01:21:55] I remember just crying because I felt so guilty, um, that I’d, like, missed [01:22:00] this thing. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easy to, it’s easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: And.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [01:22:05] easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: But, you know, anyway, I wrote him a letter being like, I’ve literally, I’ve [01:22:10] literally got a letter from another patient saying I’ve saved his life because I’ve referred so early. I caught something so [01:22:15] early and I’m. And I’m and I, and I rate myself an oral medicine. I’m quite like Simon always gets me in for [01:22:20] oral med. Format. Quite good with oral med.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s easy to miss. It’s easy to miss.

Meghan Chard: There’s no doubt about that.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:22:25] there’s no doubt about that. And what a brilliant one to bring up. Yeah, because that is important, [01:22:30] isn’t it? That and the way you talk about it is very, very clear. As soon as you said endo and [01:22:35] you said perio, what’s going off in my head is perio endo perio endo lesion. [01:22:40] Not for a second did I consider you were going to say this. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, [01:22:45] but but the letter. Yeah. I stopped practising 14 [01:22:50] years ago or something and still a letter where someone sort of questioned my [01:22:55] intent.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Still sticks with me. And it was, it was nothing like this, [01:23:00] but that, that question of, you know.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah. It’s your intent.

Payman Langroudi: Your intent is completely [01:23:05] there.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s easy to miss. And yet a patient thinks that and that can hurt. [01:23:10]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I mean, I wrote him a letter back and nothing ever happened from it. And, you know, um, [01:23:15] and I obviously said sorry, but I didn’t I said like, you know, she was a non-smoker. She didn’t drink alcohol. [01:23:20] She was none of the risk factors. But yeah, anyway, that was like, that was like [01:23:25] the darkest clinical day for me. Um, and then, you know, since then I’ve referred patients [01:23:30] where the teeth have like lost bone and like, I’m like, oh my God, that’s definitely cancer. And it’s like, no, it’s just perio, [01:23:35] you know, anyway, you know, but yeah, I got caught out at that time and um, yeah, really, really [01:23:40] sad story really.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re really brave to share that I really do and well [01:23:45] done for doing it because honestly, honestly, that you sharing that can save another life. You [01:23:50] know, 10,000 people are going to listen to this. Yeah, 10,000 dentists are going to listen to this. And [01:23:55] all of them are now going to be looking out a little bit more. Yeah. For that. And you [01:24:00] know, it’s weird that we learn from our own mistakes. You know, next time you’re going to think [01:24:05] about that thing more. But we can learn from each other, right? Yeah.

Meghan Chard: That’s it. You know, you know, like if [01:24:10] you read that, um, that book black box thinking where like actually pilots share [01:24:15] all their errors.

Payman Langroudi: This is about that.

Meghan Chard: You know, they share all their errors and actually, like medical professionals are [01:24:20] so scared to like be sued or be blamed that they have to like, not hide them, but they won’t share them with other people [01:24:25] because, you know, they’re embarrassed or ashamed about.

Payman Langroudi: You know, there’s a really famous one, isn’t it, about [01:24:30] the big, uh, plane crash where the junior guy could tell [01:24:35] that what the captain was saying was going to cause a crash, but he was junior and [01:24:40] the captain was very senior. And the learning from that was that if you’re a junior, you have [01:24:45] to say it. If you think you know, the captain said. Right. Engines full ahead. Yeah. And he kind of went, are [01:24:50] you sure? And then he just shut up. And that was recorded. And the flight recorder was it. And then they spread that [01:24:55] around the whole pilot community. Yeah. That doesn’t matter how junior you are. You know.

Meghan Chard: You’ve got a concern.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of like [01:25:00] safeguarding. Yeah. It doesn’t matter how small. Yeah. How little. You think it might [01:25:05] be a problem. Bring it up. Yeah. You won’t get in trouble. Basically. You know, that. That sort.

Meghan Chard: Of thing. I think it’s [01:25:10] so important. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Super important that we talk about these things super important and [01:25:15] you know, the way you feel is totally normal and missing it is totally normal. Let’s [01:25:20] face it. You know, we mustn’t punish ourselves about missing something like that in [01:25:25] that situation. No, thanks for doing that. So going [01:25:30] forward, I bet Simon’s got a plan to open 100 of these practices. [01:25:35]

Meghan Chard: Going, I.

Payman Langroudi: Think.

Meghan Chard: Well, strap yourself into [01:25:40] the rocket.

Payman Langroudi: Has that be the question?

Meghan Chard: Yeah I think.

Payman Langroudi: Are you going to get a second one.

Meghan Chard: I think we will. [01:25:45] Yeah. I think we’re just you know like our youngest is not even two. It’s one. You know I think we’re just trying to. But [01:25:50] yeah, I think it’s definitely something we want, we want to do.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and 20 like, [01:25:55] is that the way I bet he’s thinking like that.

Meghan Chard: Probably, you know, it’s like, I mean, one at a time [01:26:00] to be fair.

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s not though, is it? I mean, you could go for private equity. You could, you know, you could. [01:26:05]

Meghan Chard: Yeah. I mean, it’s the thing is one year to the next so [01:26:10] much changes. Yeah. So you know we’ll see.

Payman Langroudi: But your operations you’re working on today?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:26:15] I’m like, how much, you know? Um, but yeah, I think so. I think so like, like definitely in the future, [01:26:20] nothing immediate, but yeah, definitely. I think in the future, I think I would aspire to have more.

Payman Langroudi: So [01:26:25] you’re Catholic.

Meghan Chard: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in God?

Meghan Chard: You’ve [01:26:30] got a few times on your podcast haven’t you? Do I believe in God? Um, not [01:26:35] as like a not like I believe in something. I believe in a higher power, I think, but [01:26:40] I don’t believe like in a man made religion that makes sense. Like I believe in [01:26:45] like a collective, like a collective kind of like.

Payman Langroudi: Oneness of humanity [01:26:50] and everything.

Meghan Chard: And like connected to everything, like nature and the universe and energy and like, you know, we’re [01:26:55] made of stardust.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Like there’s more. I, I believe in something. [01:27:00] I’m not an atheist. Um, and so I just think there’s so much we don’t even know. Like I can [01:27:05] sense when someone comes in and there’s something not right. I can sense that. I mean, it’s proven there’s like neuro [01:27:10] you’ve got like a sort of force field around you and your energy is sort of mixed. And there’s some [01:27:15] people that your energies really combine with and some that you don’t. Like the what is that about? Like it’s [01:27:20] got to be something bigger.

Payman Langroudi: But then but were you brought up as a Catholic.

Meghan Chard: A Catholic, and went to church until [01:27:25] I was 18 every.

Payman Langroudi: Sunday. Do you remember a moment when you sort of thought, screw this? Like, I’m [01:27:30] not going to go into I’m not going to go after organised religion?

Meghan Chard: Probably not.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:27:35] not that late.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I [01:27:40] mean, my parents, my mom especially has very strong faith. She prays like every day.

Payman Langroudi: My wife does.

Meghan Chard: Um, [01:27:45] and I love that. And I think I’m a bit jealous, really, that she’s, like, so strong in her faith. Um. For [01:27:50] me, um. Yeah, I went to church until I was 18, mainly because I had to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:27:55]

Meghan Chard: I was forced by my parents, um. And Easter. [01:28:00] Oh my God. Thank God when I got to uni, the Easter celebrations, I didn’t have to do any more because there’s so [01:28:05] many church ceremonies. There’s like Good Friday is about three hours long. Then there’s like Easter [01:28:10] Saturday, Easter Vigil, then there’s Easter Sunday. Oh my God.

Payman Langroudi: So I [01:28:15] went to a Catholic school for three years.

Meghan Chard: They really know how to.

Payman Langroudi: Like.

Meghan Chard: Really long things out, don’t they?

Payman Langroudi: And [01:28:20] long ceremonies as well.

Meghan Chard: Oh, you know, I just think, you know, the.

Payman Langroudi: Buttons up a little bit. Buttoned [01:28:25] up, you know, like. Yeah, it’s not fun.

Meghan Chard: Chanting and chanting and up and down. It’s about chanting.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not supposed to be fun.

Meghan Chard: You don’t [01:28:30] need to change it up a little bit. Yeah. But I do believe I do think we’re missing. I do think religion and [01:28:35] community is what we’re missing in today’s society. I think a lot of young people are lost now because there’s no sense of [01:28:40] community, and it’s all very much about themselves. And what do I want and what do I need, which I think that was that’s our issue. I [01:28:45] think, you know, decades ago is very much like the community, you know, the bigger [01:28:50] picture. So I think that’s what we’re missing now. So I think there’s.

Payman Langroudi: So you’re kind of alluding to what used to go to [01:28:55] church on a Sunday. Yeah. And you’d meet your your community there. Yeah. And there [01:29:00] was a warmth and a society there. Yeah. That people haven’t got now, which is true. Like, [01:29:05] I don’t really know my next door neighbours. Really?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. It’s really sad, isn’t it? Everyone keeps [01:29:10] themselves now and then. Then we’ve got like, loads of loneliness as well. So I think we’re missing [01:29:15] something there. Um. But am I religious? Um.

Payman Langroudi: I’m not.

Meghan Chard: Spiritual. [01:29:20] You know what I mean? I feel like energies, but then.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, but you know how it’s, it’s kind [01:29:25] of helpful to be religious sometimes, right? When someone passes away. Yeah. You [01:29:30] feel like.

Meghan Chard: It helps you to process death and what it means and things like that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well, you know, there’s lovely things like going to a better [01:29:35] place or looking down on me or all of these things. Do you still have those sort of feelings [01:29:40] or have you become like me where I think, oh, when someone dies, they’re dead? And that’s a [01:29:45] terrible thing, right? Because.

Meghan Chard: No, I do believe in ghosts. I do believe in spirits. Spirits?

Payman Langroudi: Do you believe in karma?

Meghan Chard: Um. [01:29:50] Kind of. Yeah. Well, I kind of believe that, you know, because [01:29:55] I know I just listened to a podcast for you saying like, is it selfish? You know, like you’re being nice, [01:30:00] you have good energy back. But I just think it’s more harmony, you know? So I think, yeah, I do kind of do [01:30:05] believe in karma. And I think like you kind of get what you give. And I think if you’re not always, obviously, because [01:30:10] sometimes life is unfair and things happen that you have no control over. Um, and [01:30:15] I don’t necessarily believe in fate. Sometimes I don’t know, I don’t know how I believe in fate because, you know, I just think the children and, you [01:30:20] know, Gaza, like that’s not their fate. I don’t know, but I, um, [01:30:25] I, yeah, I kind of deal in good energy. I believe in good energy and bad energy. And I think if you’ve [01:30:30] got bad, bad energy, it’ll come around in a different way because of what you put out to the world. If you’re like positive [01:30:35] and you’re kind.

Payman Langroudi: Practically, yeah.

Meghan Chard: Then, you know, if you’re smiling at someone, yeah, they’re gonna smile [01:30:40] back to you. It’s that kind of thing. If you’re, if you’re growling at someone, you know, that’s it’s that kind of reciprocation. [01:30:45] I think. So, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I do see you talking about the future. [01:30:50] You and Simon sort of carried on the practice from his parents. Do you feel like you [01:30:55] guys are kind of looking to pass whatever businesses you [01:31:00] do onto your kid? Do you think of it that way, or would you like if someone came along and said, here’s [01:31:05] 20 million, you’re going to leave? Because I don’t know if you listen to the episode with Anushka. No. Dental [01:31:10] she’s she’s on 43 practices now.

Meghan Chard: 43 wow.

Payman Langroudi: And, [01:31:15] and three kids.

Meghan Chard: That’s what I mean. I’m like, how, how do you go from. That’s what I mean. It’s like, it can’t be. I, [01:31:20] I can’t imagine it, but I’m like 1 to 2 must be the biggest step.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 1 to 2 is huge.

Meghan Chard: Because [01:31:25] then I’m like, how do people I meet people all the time and they’re like, yeah, I’ve got three, I’ve got five. And I’m like, what? [01:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: But I’m, I’m constantly telling people not to go from 1 to 2 until they’ve squeezed everything [01:31:35] out. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, even if you want to own two or 3 or 4, you should be sweating [01:31:40] those assets. You know, if if your practice isn’t open seven days a week, then what you’re [01:31:45] doing going from 1 to 2. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Keep one away. Yeah. And late hours and all that. Yeah. I [01:31:50] know it’s hard. I know it’s hard. I’m talking like I own a practice.

Meghan Chard: I know, I know, I know, yeah. [01:31:55]

Payman Langroudi: But you know sometimes I go to places right. There’s plenty of space for redevelopment. Like you added those rooms and [01:32:00] they’re talking about the second practice and there’s a vanity.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, there is an ego and ego. [01:32:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. So so so how do you think about succession?

Meghan Chard: Do you know my [01:32:10] kids are, you know, very young, you know, so we’re not we’re not you know, what if they were a bit older? I mean, they’ve they’ve said they wanted [01:32:15] to be a dentist, you know, but, you know, they but also, like my middle one said, he wants to be a T rex when [01:32:20] he’s older. So you’ve got to take that with a pinch of salt. Um but you know our second [01:32:25] he lines things up. He’s very everything’s, you know, I think he’d be a very good cosmetic dentist. Um, [01:32:30] but no, there’s no pressure. But if they wanted it to be then. Yeah. Um yeah. I mean, [01:32:35] but they’re so far away from that actually being a genuine like question that like, it’s [01:32:40] not really something we need to think about right now.

Payman Langroudi: The weird thing is though, yeah, that often they don’t know what they want. [01:32:45] I mean, my son did, but my daughter didn’t at all.

Meghan Chard: Well, why would you like [01:32:50] 16 to 18? I think it’s reasonable. Like you should almost do it how the Americans do it, to be honest. It’s like do [01:32:55] an undergrad, see what you like. But you know.

Payman Langroudi: How did you end up in dentistry? Was it your uncle? [01:33:00]

Meghan Chard: Well, indirectly. So. You know, we lived in Manchester a [01:33:05] lot, and. And between Ireland and Manchester. But like. I didn’t see my Uncle Martin that much. Like we only [01:33:10] saw him occasionally. So he didn’t have like a direct, a direct influence, but it was more. I knew that he was [01:33:15] a dentist and to be honest, we went to visit his house in Ireland. They were even there. They were [01:33:20] off because like Mary obviously had a big political career before she became a the president. We [01:33:25] went to their house and had a big harp in the hallway.

Payman Langroudi: Was it Mary’s husband? Who’s the dentist?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:33:30] Oh I see. Yeah. Okay. And, um, we went to the house, an amazing harp in their hallway and, like [01:33:35] a beautiful house. And, like, you need to put two and two together, you’re like. Mm. You kind of just work things [01:33:40] out a little bit. Like, you know, we didn’t have a half in our house. There was no space [01:33:45] for half in our house. But so, you know, um, I think, yeah, I think, um, [01:33:50] and then I always like, you know, I always had, like, I know it sounds lame, but I always had a good experience going [01:33:55] to the dentist as a child. I never had braces as a child. So I was quite fortunate that way that my teeth were quite aligned [01:34:00] and.

Payman Langroudi: There are loads of people become a dentist because they love their orthodontists.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Really? [01:34:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Meghan Chard: Because you spend so much time there. Yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. Weird. And then do you know what I, I never [01:34:10] even thought I could do it because I was always a bit like average in the class. I was never like, you know, I was like just in the middle and [01:34:15] um, for my GCSEs, I did really well. And like, that was the first time I was like, oh [01:34:20] my God, I actually could do, I actually can do this. So, um, and then [01:34:25] just, you know, you kind of think, oh, and actually I was told in my careers by the careers person at college that I couldn’t do dentistry [01:34:30] because I didn’t have the right subjects. So I did biology, chemistry and performing [01:34:35] arts because I really, I at least love acting and singing and dancing. And I did that as an A-level. [01:34:40] And then they said I wouldn’t be able to do it. And I thought, I’ll try [01:34:45] anyway. And actually it is a perfect, it’s a perfect actual, um, compliment [01:34:50] because it’s communication and it’s like kind of showing up and being a persona and making a patient [01:34:55] feel welcome. And so actually, yeah. Anyway, I got in the Kings obviously felt it was [01:35:00] suitable and I got in. But yeah, so I just kind of jumped the hoops and that’s kind of, you know how I got in really. [01:35:05]

Payman Langroudi: I know this is really hard to imagine for you now. Yeah. But just for the sake of the argument, [01:35:10] let’s say you had a day off from everyone, including [01:35:15] Simon. What would you do?

Meghan Chard: A day off.

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:35:20] no one, nowhere to report. Do whatever the hell you want.

Meghan Chard: Okay, [01:35:25] so I’d get up in the morning, I’d do some exercise. I’d probably go in the [01:35:30] sauna. I’d go for a walk. Actually, in a forest.

Payman Langroudi: By yourself?

Meghan Chard: By myself?

Payman Langroudi: Bathe [01:35:35] in the forest.

Meghan Chard: No music? No. Yeah. No podcast. Just like. Yeah, just [01:35:40] like the nature kind of, you know, that’s what I would do because I feel like I never go walking in a forest because [01:35:45] when I’m carrying a million kids and they want snacks and they want to be picked up and they want, you know, so [01:35:50] I just love to go to a forest. Um, what else I do me like a massage or a facial or something, you [01:35:55] know. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But then, but then friends or.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. [01:36:00]

Payman Langroudi: Dinners or I don’t know, drinks or like.

Meghan Chard: I mean, I mean, [01:36:05] you know, I can keep going, can I? Lovely. Okay. I thought I’m going to pick up the kids right now. So [01:36:10] I’m not picking up the kids today. Um, yeah. Then I go for like a nice boozy lunch with some friends and [01:36:15] dance in the kitchen, basically. Probably.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your favourite place in the world? You’ve been in so many places. What’s your favourite place [01:36:20] in the world?

Meghan Chard: Oh, favourite place in the world? Um, I really like Cape Town.

Prav Solanki: I [01:36:25] love Cape Town.

Meghan Chard: It’s like got a magnetism.

Prav Solanki: I love.

Meghan Chard: The mountains, I love it.

Prav Solanki: It’s got it [01:36:30] all.

Meghan Chard: It’s got it all. Love, love.

Payman Langroudi: Mum from there.

Meghan Chard: She’s not, she’s from [01:36:35] Joburg.

Prav Solanki: Okay.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. Um so Cape Town I really [01:36:40] love I mean we’ve just come back from the Maldives. That’s just a very special place. Like I just feel so [01:36:45] switched off there. Um, that’s probably like the favourite. Yeah. Favourite places basically. [01:36:50] Um, is that a bit boring I don’t know. How about you. What’s your favourite place?

Payman Langroudi: I like, I like Cape Town a lot. Yeah, [01:36:55] I like Thailand.

Meghan Chard: Thailand.

Payman Langroudi: I like the food. I like the people. And you know, there’s enough. Enough. [01:37:00] Germans and Dutch guys have gone to Thailand to find themselves a bride. And those guys, when they build [01:37:05] villas, they don’t mess around. Yeah. You know, like they build these amazing villas. You [01:37:10] get, like, amazing.

Meghan Chard: Would you go to a villa if you went there? Would you go to a hotel?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:37:15] do, yeah, I prefer Airbnb to hotels.

Meghan Chard: You know, I’ve got three young kids, so I’ve tried. We [01:37:20] tried that in October. We went and did an Airbnb. And then after a few days we were like hotel. [01:37:25]

Payman Langroudi: It depends. It depends. I went to Dental forum. Do you know about that? It’s like [01:37:30] the power room in dentistry. It’s like it’s all the all the corporates and all the suppliers. [01:37:35] Right. And then you do speed dating, right? And for us, it’s a massive deal, right? It sometimes it [01:37:40] takes months to find out the name of the human that you have to focus on to get your product into [01:37:45] some big group. Yeah. Now, now you sit with the CEO of the group, CEO of the next group, CEO of the group. [01:37:50] So it’s a really good thing to go to. Yeah. Um, but, um, why am I, why am I [01:37:55] talking about. Oh, yeah. The last time, last time we went, it was they, they got the venue got messed [01:38:00] up and they had to in a hurry. They had to get another venue and we ended up in the W Hotel [01:38:05] in Barcelona.

Meghan Chard: Oh, nice.

Payman Langroudi: And it totally whipped me up to what [01:38:10] it is to go to a cool hotel. Yeah. You know, because I’ve been I’ve been stopping going to hotels for [01:38:15] the last ten years.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And the, as soon as I got my room key, wherever I wanted [01:38:20] to go, some guy would say, show me your key, please. Room key, please. Room key please. I was like, what the hell? Why do they keep [01:38:25] checking my room key, man? And then, uh, the one day later, you [01:38:30] realise, oh, that’s why they’re checking for the room key. Because the benefits of being in the [01:38:35] hotel, like sonar was on during the time we were there and they were having [01:38:40] a massive event in the pool. There was a whole queue. The whole town was there trying to get [01:38:45] in, but your room key would just get you straight into that event, you know? Yeah. You it’s certainly understood [01:38:50] that. Right?

Meghan Chard: I love a nice hotel. Just like. Come on, just relax. I don’t want to cook. I don’t [01:38:55] want to clean. I just want to relax when I’m like on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But in Thailand and in South Africa, they [01:39:00] have cleaners in Airbnbs.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s standard. Like when we were in Cape Town, the guy [01:39:05] didn’t even bother to tell us that every day a cleaner would come. He just took it for granted.

Meghan Chard: Really [01:39:10] love.

Payman Langroudi: That.

Meghan Chard: That’s the dream.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. A couple of quick fire questions [01:39:15] for you. Best lecture. What comes to mind or course if you want.

Meghan Chard: Course. [01:39:20] Well, I mean, do you know what like I’ve been, as I said before, I’ve been hiding under a rock for the last [01:39:25] eight years, you know, so clinical hasn’t been my priority. And part of me has been like, I can’t [01:39:30] what’s the point in spending money and doing a course and doing this? Because I’m literally on maternity leave and I can’t get, [01:39:35] you know, but I actually went on a really interesting, um, I attended a lecture, an interesting [01:39:40] lecture in September, a guy called Malcolm Levin kind, I think he’s a paediatric dentist. [01:39:45]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: He is. Do you know him?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Fascinating. Basically, the connection between children’s [01:39:50] teeth and their posture.

Payman Langroudi: Oh.

Meghan Chard: Fascinating. And he basically analyses [01:39:55] the child, and he has these mirrors around him and a mirror on the top. And the child has to, like, [01:40:00] stand. And so you see from all angles the child’s posture and, you know, this is linking [01:40:05] it back to airways. But a child who’s got an airway issue hyperextends their neck forward. And that’s the body’s [01:40:10] way of trying to open up the airways. So quite often you’ll see these children like this. And when he corrects the bite [01:40:15] and corrects the airways, the child’s posture just naturally is more straight. Mhm. [01:40:20] What blew my mind was this one child who was sucking her thumb and sucking her thumb [01:40:25] to the side. You know, you can obviously suck your thumb in different ways. She was sucking her thumb to the side, and [01:40:30] when he got her, when he took a photo of her, just her natural [01:40:35] pose was like one leg was slightly bent and she was kind of to one side. Right? And [01:40:40] he took a photo. Then when she put her thumb in her body, Uprighted. And [01:40:45] I found that. I found that mad. I was like, so her body is doing what? The body [01:40:50] is so clever. The body knows that. Like for some reason, by putting the thumb in there, it [01:40:55] kind of aligns her body to open up the airways and, you know, make her straight. And then when you take the thumb out again, [01:41:00] the kind of postures back and everything’s all it was just blew my mind. And I think, you [01:41:05] know, we kind of, I think we should be more integrated with osteopaths because. [01:41:10]

Payman Langroudi: We do that thing, don’t they, where they put an appliance in the mouth and then suddenly the power of the arm gets more.

Meghan Chard: It’s [01:41:15] crazy. Yeah. And I think there’s so much, you know, it makes sense. It’s like the airway thing. It makes sense. [01:41:20] Like the teeth. If the bites completely out, then that’s connected to the jaw joint. The jaw joint [01:41:25] is connected to the head and the neck.

Payman Langroudi: The song of the body.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, exactly. It’s like we learnt it when we were six. [01:41:30] The spine was connected to the, you know, it’s like, um. So that just blows my mind. I think that’s [01:41:35] like, that’s what I love about what’s coming up now. I think we’re integrating it all more with the body.

Payman Langroudi: Body connection [01:41:40] has become a huge thing. It’s become a huge thing. And not before time, you know. Yeah. Um, [01:41:45] and like you say, we tend to be behind on these things in the UK a little bit. What about resource? [01:41:50] Like what comes to mind if I say what’s your favourite dental resource?

Meghan Chard: Instagram.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Is [01:41:55] there a particular account?

Meghan Chard: Um, no. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I mean like like George dentist. [01:42:00] His accounts are amazing. Yeah. I kind of stay in touch with that end of restorative dentistry [01:42:05] through him.

Meghan Chard: Really?

Payman Langroudi: That bit of it. You know, that sort of.

Meghan Chard: Um, might be him. [01:42:10]

Payman Langroudi: Or is there a book.

Meghan Chard: You know, like I’m kind of on the airway thing now. I find it so fascinating. I found, [01:42:15] um, Shereen Lim. Do you know Shereen Lim? No, she’s Australian dentist. It’s called breathe, [01:42:20] sleep thrive. That was an incredible book. It’s like breath. James Nestor, like [01:42:25] incredible book. But Shereen Lim is like more dental focussed.

Payman Langroudi: Okay.

Meghan Chard: And it goes through everything from like, the [01:42:30] importance of breastfeeding and why breastfeeding is really important and things like that that has like got so many, um, [01:42:35] like really interesting and like, say saved by the mouth by Katie Lee. I love that book, you [01:42:40] know, talks about, you know, like, well, the mouth body connection. So they’re kind of like, I love those books [01:42:45] basically.

Payman Langroudi: Are you on the sort of longevity kick the way Simon is? Is he is he ploughing, ploughing, ploughing drugs down [01:42:50] you every day? Yeah, we’re still.

Meghan Chard: On most nights. Honestly, I’m obsessed with the sauna and cold plunge. Cold [01:42:55] plunge is a bit more six monthly. Like the winter is not really getting that much. You might see that a bit less on the Instagram, but [01:43:00] in the summer. But it’s coming to spring now, so I’m going to have to start getting into it. No, but it is amazing. But you [01:43:05] know, Brian Johnson has said that the sauna is like the number one thing for detoxing your body. Honestly, I’m obsessed. [01:43:10] Every night I feel so good just like sweating it out.

Payman Langroudi: So what do you do before [01:43:15] bed?

Meghan Chard: For bed? Yeah, it’s really great. Just like no TV, no phone, nothing like no book. Even [01:43:20] like just being, you know what I mean? No distraction. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just a form of meditation [01:43:25] in itself. Yeah. So how long do you spend in there? What, ten.

Meghan Chard: Minutes. And sometimes me inside, [01:43:30] like so like that’s basically our business like planning as well. Like we basically start our business out when we sauna as well, [01:43:35] but like solving all the business issues during that sauna. So sometimes it goes really quickly [01:43:40] as well, you know. But um, no, I love it. And like it just apparently it’s really good for, for detoxifying against [01:43:45] microplastics in your body.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Meghan Chard: Yeah. So I love it. Obsessed. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Look at the [01:43:50] end of our time.

Meghan Chard: Oh, it’s been so much fun. So quick. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Final questions. Fantasy [01:43:55] dinner party.

Meghan Chard: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Three guests. Dead or alive. Who [01:44:00] you got?

Meghan Chard: I find these questions really hard to answer, but yeah. Had a little think about it. [01:44:05] David Attenborough. Right. I just think what a legend.

Payman Langroudi: Like he’s the number [01:44:10] one in the country, man.

Meghan Chard: I mean what I mean what’s going to happen. I mean I don’t even dare dare to think so. Um, [01:44:15] yeah. I mean, he’s been on the screen since I was a child, right. So I would just love to have him there. I think he’d be [01:44:20] a legend. I absolutely love him.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not the first time he’s been invited, is it?

Meghan Chard: Not really.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Number [01:44:25] two, Tara Swart. Oh. Do you know Tara Swart.

Payman Langroudi: Rings a bell.

Meghan Chard: She’s [01:44:30] a neuroscientist and, like a medical trained doctor. She’s been on, um, Stephen [01:44:35] Bartlett’s podcast a few times. Okay. I just think she’s like, so she’s neuroscience, but she’s also quite [01:44:40] spiritual. And I love how she kind of like links the two together. So that should be quite interesting. [01:44:45] And then the third one I found really hard to think about because I was going to go for like, you know, like [01:44:50] Nelson Mandela or someone, you know, someone like that. But yeah, you know, and I’ve gone for something a little bit different. I think Davina [01:44:55] McCall.

Payman Langroudi: I like Davina McCall.

Meghan Chard: She’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Like, I like, I liked it when she was [01:45:00] young and I like her now as well.

Meghan Chard: Yeah, she’s brilliant. And I think, you know, she’s really fun. I think she has a really real [01:45:05] zest for life. She like is really into fitness. I think there’s not many like 50 [01:45:10] year old like, um, kind of who’s your inspiration? Who’s your role model? I think in certain [01:45:15] ways she’s like a role model to me. So like, I think Davina would be quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: She even talks about menopause, which [01:45:20] is like super important.

Meghan Chard: Yeah. And she’s like a brain tumour recently and yeah. And I think she actually [01:45:25] got breast cancer as well. Now I know, and, but she’s like so positive and like, she’s into her fitness and she’s [01:45:30] like, just fun. I think. So yeah, I think that would be my three be a bit interesting, a bit of an interesting one. Um, [01:45:35] but yeah, maybe those three.

Payman Langroudi: I like that. What would you have done differently?

Meghan Chard: Well, [01:45:40] career wise.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Meghan Chard: Oh, no. Okay. Um, what [01:45:45] would I have done differently? I think, you know, I always wanted to, to, [01:45:50] to, to work in Australia for a few years. I really wanted to do that, like live abroad, [01:45:55] um, before we had kids and like live that life where you were earning and working in the sun [01:46:00] and things like that. But to be honest, I am Irish. So like.

Payman Langroudi: You’re kind of doing.

Meghan Chard: My skin like I’m 100%. [01:46:05] I’m not 100%, but I’m like 88% Celtic. My genetics. So [01:46:10] like, I think it’s actually like a, it’s like not really reality. I’d have been burnt. I’ve been like a red, a [01:46:15] red sweaty mess to be honest. So, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Do you like Australian?

Meghan Chard: Um. My brother lives there. [01:46:20] So yeah, I do like it’s very far away. Yeah. So I’ve been a couple of times, but, um, [01:46:25] yeah, the vibe.

Payman Langroudi: Is it more like South Africa? Yeah. Like America. I’ve never been.

Meghan Chard: It’s like South Africa, [01:46:30] South Africa kind of vibes. Yeah. It’s like really beautiful, like lots of nature walks. [01:46:35] Like everyone does their fitness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s quite and [01:46:40] quite similar culturally to like England. I would say it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Massive, massive pleasure. I really [01:46:45] enjoyed it.

Meghan Chard: Oh, thanks for having me on. Payman. I really enjoyed it.

[VOICE]: This [01:46:50] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:46:55] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:47:00] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:47:05] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:47:10] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:47:15] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:47:20]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [01:47:25] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. [01:47:30] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

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[VOICE]: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The [00:00:35] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in [00:00:40] dentistry. Your hosts [00:00:45] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure [00:00:50] to welcome Henry Totterdell onto the podcast. Henry is a very interesting grad [00:00:55] graduate student, graduate dental student who I [00:01:00] met. Where was dentistry show?

Henry Totterdell: We met at the dentistry. Yeah. Dentist.

Payman Langroudi: I saw fire in your eyes that day. Yeah. [00:01:05] So, um, you you you’ve become an engineer [00:01:10] first, a mechanical engineer first. That’s right. It’s kind of an interesting route to dentistry, then worked [00:01:15] for a good ten years before choosing to go back and become a dental [00:01:20] student. Aged what?

Henry Totterdell: I was 34 when I started. Yeah, 37 [00:01:25] now.

Payman Langroudi: And now the third year in Bristol.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Year three. Bristol Dental School. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And also [00:01:30] running a sort of a innovations hub at Dental Innovations Hub that where you sort of have [00:01:35] bits outside of the regular dental course for the students.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. That’s right. That’s the little like side project [00:01:40] on the side of the main course that sort of keeps me, keeps me interested in what’s going on in dentistry outside [00:01:45] of the actual clinical course, which is quite exciting. Allows me to give something back to the students as well, which [00:01:50] I really like.

Payman Langroudi: And not not to mention I look at your Instagram, it looks like an amazing travel blog. [00:01:55]

Henry Totterdell: Oh yeah, of course.

Payman Langroudi: You’re constantly away, right?

Henry Totterdell: I’d say I’m like a net absorber [00:02:00] of Instagram and social media rather than a contributor. I find it quite hard to go out there and [00:02:05] sort of post, post about myself, but every now and then I’ll be like, oh, I’ve been on this really cool trip. Like, I like my [00:02:10] friends want to know about that. So I then put up some, some trips. I’ve been really fortunate actually. I think that was [00:02:15] the, the perk of like my grad job and just like just being me, I had the, the time and [00:02:20] just go an adventure anywhere that I wanted to do.

Payman Langroudi: What are some of your favourite places you’ve been?

Henry Totterdell: Oh gosh, there’s so many. Um, [00:02:25] so somewhere like locally, I just, I love just going around France, but Slovenia. [00:02:30] Triglav National Park. The hiking there is unreal. And the the Alps there are very different than most [00:02:35] like a, I don’t know, like a Martian landscape that really jaggedy and aggressive. The hiking there is incredible. [00:02:40] Uh, Colombia. Absolutely love Colombia. India. Um, just so different to the [00:02:45] UK. Like really opens your eyes up to just humanity around the world. I absolutely love that. [00:02:50] Yeah. Colombia. I can’t put a single thing like a finger on my finger on a single thing. [00:02:55] Like what’s amazing about it? It’s just in general, it’s a really great.

Payman Langroudi: Did you travel around Colombia?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I [00:03:00] spent six weeks there back in 2019. Yeah. It’s just like popping around all the major cities. A [00:03:05] couple of hikes up in some national parks, like a really great country. People. People are so lovely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. My [00:03:10] my son’s going Colombia because he he didn’t take a year off. Yeah. Which I really feel [00:03:15] like I’m a failure for not persuading him to.

Henry Totterdell: Do it after uni. Like when you’re a bit older, you’re more confident.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:03:20] he’s doing is he’s joining some of his buddies who did take a year off. I love that. And but he’s he’s going to Colombia, [00:03:25] but he’s not going to Bogota or Medellin or he’s not there in a different part of their [00:03:30] travels at that point where he can make it there.

Henry Totterdell: It’s such a big country. Yeah. Because you’ve got everything there. You’ve [00:03:35] got cities, mountains, like seaside. Then you’ve got jungle, so you can have some [00:03:40] rainforest. Beautiful place. Yeah. So you can have like the most diverse adventure you possibly want. It’s such a [00:03:45] great country. Yeah. He’s gonna have.

Payman Langroudi: Fun for travel, I think. Like, travelling young is super important, you know, like. [00:03:50]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I would agree with you. Like, whilst you’ve got that freedom to do it. Your mind is super open. [00:03:55] Yeah. You’re inquisitive. Yeah, yeah. And I think it then gives you so much more back. Um, [00:04:00] when you then take that experience into whatever you do next, you definitely have a much more rounded [00:04:05] perspective on, on life and humanity, which I think is, is really important. And you, it gives you a confidence [00:04:10] as well to like, go and say hi to people. Yeah, to meet people to do.

Payman Langroudi: You travel on your own as well?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, mostly. [00:04:15] Yeah. Which is good. Yeah, I’ve done a lot of it. Um, or I’ll like meet people on the way for like a two week period [00:04:20] on the way. Yeah, yeah. I was glad actually, when I went to India, I was glad my friend was doing his grad scheme [00:04:25] out there. I landed in the middle of Mumbai. I’d never been abroad by myself before. And it’s quite a quite [00:04:30] an intense place.

Payman Langroudi: Mumbai.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just got stuck in a traffic jam I’ve ever been in.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, yeah. You [00:04:35] can be stuck as a pedestrian.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You literally sit there. You’re on the pavement. I can’t go anywhere right now. Like [00:04:40] what is happening. But it’s part of the joy of it, right? And so that I think really sort of, uh, got [00:04:45] gave me confidence to go and go wherever I wanted by myself and knew that I would meet people [00:04:50] and have a good time. And if I didn’t meet people, I have a good time by myself.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been far East.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, only as [00:04:55] far as Thailand. So yeah, it’s good, isn’t it? Yeah, like a really great country, [00:05:00] really nice place to travel around as well. People are so lovely. So much to see and do. Food is amazing. Yeah. [00:05:05] I think that’s one of the joys of travelling.

Payman Langroudi: It’s my favourite place this time.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I love it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a bit far [00:05:10] but but but now with Dubai it’s kind of like.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, exactly.

Henry Totterdell: You do need to go there [00:05:15] for like, you know, quite an extended period of time, I think to, to really make the most of that flight. But it’s so easy. [00:05:20] Like I say.

Payman Langroudi: Think back to your childhood. You grew up in Stroud.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I grew up in a place called [00:05:25] Stroud in Gloucestershire. Yeah. Um, sort of like a family of five.

Payman Langroudi: So your parents [00:05:30] involved in dentistry or medicine at all or anything?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, well, my dad was a vet, so he was [00:05:35] on the medical side. Yeah. I think he was probably always a little bit disappointed. None of us followed his footsteps. [00:05:40] Um, but now I finally am, so it’s quite, quite exciting. I did my vet work experience, [00:05:45] which was good. I just don’t think I ever was passionate love for animals and things [00:05:50] like that. So I sort of like put that back to one side and follow.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of vet was he?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Predominantly [00:05:55] small animal. But he’d do anything. Yeah. Absolutely anything. Yeah. He loved like the I guess of the patient. [00:06:00] I say the patient management, the the owner management and then the surgery. He could just operate all, all [00:06:05] day long I think. Yeah, yeah. He trained in London. Um and then yeah. So he was the, that’s where the medical [00:06:10] side comes from. Mum’s side of the family. Like farming and engineering mainly. So yeah, there’s a huge [00:06:15] number of engineers over in that side, which is quite.

Payman Langroudi: So you decided engineering.

Henry Totterdell: I decided engineering. [00:06:20] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How how random was that decision. Did you kind of know what you were getting into or you.

Henry Totterdell: I [00:06:25] think I didn’t know what the course fully involved. Yeah. I think I think like a lot of people [00:06:30] like you get to the end of A-levels or GCSEs and you say, well, what am I good at [00:06:35] at school? Cool. Well, I’ll, I’ll follow, follow that route. It seems like the next thing to do. So, [00:06:40] you know, I liked maths, I liked physics. Yeah. And so those types of subjects, um I took a [00:06:45] year or two out because I don’t know what to do at university. And then eventually decided to travel. [00:06:50] I didn’t then actually, no, I went to and then I injured my knee. So I needed to have surgery and things. So that sort of put [00:06:55] an end to that. But it allowed me to go back to back to college actually, and get the chemistry because I was looking at [00:07:00] medicine alongside engineering at the time and was like, well, if I do medicine, I need chemistry. So I focussed [00:07:05] on that and then came to the decision of, well, I like taking things apart, understanding how machines work, [00:07:10] maths, physics, I do engineering, it seems like the right route and threw myself in up at Loughborough. [00:07:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And which kit number are you?

Henry Totterdell: I’m the middle child. Number three. Yeah. Number two.

Payman Langroudi: Number [00:07:20] two.

Henry Totterdell: Number two. Yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh five.

Henry Totterdell: Well actually I do have five. Yeah. So I’ve got [00:07:25] two half sisters. Okay. Yeah. Who are from my dad’s previous, previous life. Um, [00:07:30] and then like my brother and sister. So I always say I’m just the middle child.

Payman Langroudi: Middle child.

Henry Totterdell: Those three amongst [00:07:35] the three of us. Yeah, yeah. Older brother, younger sister.

Payman Langroudi: So then you studied in Loughborough.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [00:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: Great sporting place, amazing place.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing sort of campus [00:07:45] life.

Henry Totterdell: Really? Yeah. It’s one of the biggest campuses in the UK. Yeah, maybe not as big as somewhere like Manchester. [00:07:50] Yeah. But it’s sort of 4 or 500 acres. Everything happens on that campus from sport [00:07:55] to all your departments where you live. Um, it’s a brilliant place. And so it creates like this community. [00:08:00] There’s not much else to the town of Loughborough. I don’t know if you’ve ever been.

Payman Langroudi: But. Well, yeah, my son [00:08:05] went and he said he said the exact same thing. Yeah. And I said, well I think there must be a town nearby, right?

Henry Totterdell: Like there [00:08:10] is a town nearby.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Coventry. Where is.

Henry Totterdell: It? Well, it’s right in the middle of between Nottingham and Leicester [00:08:15] and it’s in the middle. So you’ve got big cities in a short trip.

Payman Langroudi: Coventry is a different [00:08:20] one. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Coventry is I guess over near Warwick.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Warwick.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: So. All right. And then [00:08:25] so you said you enjoyed it. I loved it and you enjoyed the course.

Henry Totterdell: You enjoyed the course. Yeah. Yeah it was.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:08:30] was.

Henry Totterdell: Hard. Yeah. It was hard. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about that. It’s uh, it’s pretty full on. Um, [00:08:35] yeah, a lot of lectures, a lot of coursework on top of that, a lot of exams. [00:08:40] And so you’re constantly sort of working towards it.

Payman Langroudi: When you compare engineering with dentistry, would [00:08:45] you say it’s harder than dentistry or less difficult?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, that’s a good question. I thought you might ask that. [00:08:50] Um it’s different I context to it. I was a lot younger when I did [00:08:55] engineering and my priorities in life were probably different. I was there to have a good time. So all the [00:09:00] extracurricular stuff was really high on my agenda is jam packed. I think, I think I probably [00:09:05] found engineering harder. Um, I think it was certainly, but I’m only halfway through dentistry, [00:09:10] so I’ve not got to the most demanding years yet. But I just remember there being a lot more coursework, a lot more expectation [00:09:15] on everything you did. Um, and therefore it took up a lot more of your time, you know. [00:09:20] Quite often you’d be sat there waiting for a computer to process overnight so that you could like if someone damaged [00:09:25] that model, you’d have to restart the next day. And you don’t really have that with dentistry. But I think dentistry [00:09:30] is about to get quite intense in years four and five when we’re on clinical day every day. So yeah, they’re [00:09:35] very different and there’s different ways of thinking as well. Engineering is very much objective. Maths like you get [00:09:40] to the outcome of your problem and you solved it. Whereas dentistry is like lots of remembering [00:09:45] facts and then applying those facts to things.

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, the engineers end up doing [00:09:50] all sorts of different things. So they go into finance, they go into so. So do you reckon [00:09:55] the training of engineering sets you up for dentistry somewhat.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I [00:10:00] think you’ve hit on a really good point about engineering there. Like it’s so broad and it teaches you to problem [00:10:05] solve and think like so early on and always go back to first principles. Like you can solve any problem if you really [00:10:10] understand the basic building blocks to it. So I think that will really help me when [00:10:15] I get to get to dentistry. I already think about it now. So like, if you’re doing like all of our treatments ultimately [00:10:20] are almost like a, a series of steps and you need to include those and not include them. There’s like hundreds of [00:10:25] permutations as I’m learning, but ultimately you can, you can see the building blocks and think, well, how do I then turn this [00:10:30] into a treatment plan or a solution? So it will. Yeah, it definitely will help me and Mick.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:10:35] did. Yeah. Is what like, what’s the difference in mech engine for someone who doesn’t know. Mech engine. [00:10:40]

Henry Totterdell: Mech engine.

Payman Langroudi: Civil engineering.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I guess one of the.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like. It’s like the [00:10:45] core one, right?

Henry Totterdell: It’s one of the core ones. Yeah. And it’s all about, I guess, how things [00:10:50] move and how energy is, um, sort of like move between different things in order to get outputs.

Payman Langroudi: So all sorts of [00:10:55] machines.

Henry Totterdell: So yeah, you do lots of, lots of things like you work out the forces on things that [00:11:00] move or spin or like how energy is transferred from a fuel to a useful [00:11:05] output at the end. And you learn how to, uh, understand what the energy in is and understand [00:11:10] what the energy out is, and then turn it from one form to the other into something useful. Yeah. Whereas [00:11:15] civil would be much more structured space. I need to build this bridge. How do I build this bridge [00:11:20] in the right way? Yeah, mechanical is much more about getting getting energy to do something useful.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing [00:11:25] about it. So then you then go and do some jobs. You finish. [00:11:30] So was it three years?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, I did five total.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. Did you do a year in industry?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I did a year in industry [00:11:35] and I did the Masters. Oh, it’s one of the few courses you can do on undergraduate masters.

Payman Langroudi: So it was [00:11:40] a four year course to start with. And then you added a year.

Henry Totterdell: It was yeah, four years of the course, one year of year in industry. [00:11:45] Yeah. So that was I guess my first real.

Payman Langroudi: Commitment to something to then give it all up. Right. [00:11:50] But it is I want to talk through that process.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I feel it’s a big commitment. I think give ups [00:11:55] may be the wrong word. I feel like it gave me so much. And it’s just like a another part of my journey and like a [00:12:00] tool I have in my armour.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve stopped being a dentist.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, exactly. But like, how much do you get out [00:12:05] of that knowledge? Yeah. It’s incredible. Right. It’s, um, so it took me a long time [00:12:10] to give up, I guess through the degree I did my placement year, I worked in defence [00:12:15] mainly, um, down in Plymouth. So in the dockyards. Amazing experience. I think as a, [00:12:20] a young engineer who doesn’t know what they want to do to see like big machines that [00:12:25] like you can’t build in many places in the world, getting built and fixed and repaired is, is [00:12:30] something quite special. And that gave me a lot of a lot of focus to go back to the rest of the course and really knuckle down working. [00:12:35] Actually, it’s probably the the kick up the backside I needed after my first two years to, [00:12:40] to knuckle down and work and then finished the degree. Wasn’t sure exactly what to do [00:12:45] job wise. I had a job lined up with the company that I’d done my placement years with, which was [00:12:50] brilliant. I knew it’d be interesting, but it wasn’t giving me that that energy or fire that [00:12:55] I really wanted. Um, so I took a year out. I think like a lot of people, um, that was the [00:13:00] first time I’d ever really travelled the world by myself.

Payman Langroudi: So, so when you land in India.

Henry Totterdell: That’s when I landed in India. Yeah, [00:13:05] yeah. So when was that? December. After I finished, I spent a few months getting some money together and [00:13:10] then go. But in that time that I spent getting money together, I applied for other grad jobs. One [00:13:15] was with a consulting firm called Newton. Um, and I went to a presentation by accident at university. [00:13:20] A friend was like, oh, I’m off, off to this presentation by this company. She’d come along. I was like, yeah, sure. Sounds interesting. [00:13:25] And I got there and the first image was one of the submarines that was in the dockyard that had just been working [00:13:30] at. And that’s when they, they joined the engineering sort of problem solving [00:13:35] with sort of like the business side. And I was hooked on the idea of doing work for that company. It [00:13:40] gave me the chance to go and work in, you know, big defence projects, lots of different manufacturing [00:13:45] environments, social care, healthcare, grocery stores. And so [00:13:50] that that variation with using your problem solving skills.

Payman Langroudi: Would it be like a time limited bit of consulting that. [00:13:55]

Henry Totterdell: It.

Payman Langroudi: Might pull you in for?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, most often I think my first project was, say nine months up in Edinburgh on [00:14:00] the aircraft carriers, sort of like helping basically shorten the schedule of building those [00:14:05] and get everything really under control.

Payman Langroudi: And you were like a junior consultant.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. You’re just going as a consultant, [00:14:10] that’s it. And they give you four weeks of training.

Payman Langroudi: And they sort of rent you out at a higher hourly rate [00:14:15] than they pay you, I guess. Oh yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the business model.

Henry Totterdell: The business model is very good if you’re the, [00:14:20] the owners. I mean, it’s very good if you’re a consultant as well.

Payman Langroudi: How is it as a career? I mean, did you, did you double [00:14:25] your salary in the first five years or not?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, just about as I said. [00:14:30] Yeah. It’s good. Like if you’re not sure what you want to do for a career and you love like [00:14:35] meeting people and you love tackling problems and, and really staying curious and [00:14:40] focusing on them. It’s a brilliant way to get a really broad set of skills that you can take anywhere. So it’s [00:14:45] like the perfect adjunct to engineering really in that sense. Um, and then yeah, you’re [00:14:50] on the road a lot. That’s probably like the big downside. Um, and you don’t get to integrate into a big [00:14:55] company, say, and settle in, but you’re part of a consulting body. So Monday to Friday, I was with [00:15:00] a load of other mid 20 year olds living in a hotel and just having a great [00:15:05] life. Like, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Is it as hard as a management consultant for us? I mean, [00:15:10] I’ve got friends.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s a branch of.

Payman Langroudi: Friends who went into that. Yeah. And they were constantly [00:15:15] travelling and, and working their butts off. I mean, they’re working felt [00:15:20] like 24/7.

Henry Totterdell: It was tough from that point of view. Like every week you’d get on a train or a flight [00:15:25] somewhere and work, but you were quite lucky in that the engagements are quite long. So you did get, like nine [00:15:30] months in one place. Yeah, it was pretty good. The company I worked for were very keen on having that [00:15:35] work life balance. So you were home by 6:00 on a Friday and if you worked on a weekend. I [00:15:40] remember getting told off once they were like, why did you work on the weekend? Don’t do that. So they were good at that. But in the week it [00:15:45] could get quite intense, but probably 730 to 6 every day, something like that with maybe an hour in.

Payman Langroudi: The evening, [00:15:50] deadline driven work.

Henry Totterdell: A lot of it is. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, that’s a set fee.

Payman Langroudi: They’ve is [00:15:55] there like politicking you have to be aware of like when you go into a business, you have to sort of understand [00:16:00] the relationships of the.

Henry Totterdell: You definitely have to understand people because I think sometimes [00:16:05] the mere fact you’ve got consultants in like, say, for example, if you’re going into a factory, um, [00:16:10] it might be to improve the efficiency of that factory or reduce the cost per unit of the [00:16:15] item that you’re making. Um, it’s usually the managing director or the general manager who’s, who’s [00:16:20] supposed to come in. Yeah. And then you’ve got the middle management who run the day to day operations, [00:16:25] suddenly having a group of quite young, very bright people with loads of energy [00:16:30] come in saying, hey, we can, we can help you fix this. But so I [00:16:35] say there’s definitely politics, but it’s, it’s more a real exercise in like [00:16:40] how to build relationships with people, how to build that trust and do it very quickly [00:16:45] so that you, you turn that sort of like maybe slightly hesitant person into someone who’s [00:16:50] on board and you’re solving the problem together, right? You’ve got to be so careful. It’s not, we’ve got a solution. [00:16:55] Um, do what we say. And it’s actually like we can help.

Payman Langroudi: Take them with you. [00:17:00]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, we can help you get there. We know you’ve got a problem. Like we’re some resource to help you solve that problem. Let’s [00:17:05] do it together. And you keep us on the right track and we’ll tell you what we think the the direction.

Payman Langroudi: Look, it sounds like a [00:17:10] super interesting, super cool job. So what was wrong with it?

Henry Totterdell: It was super interesting, super cool. Um, [00:17:15] a few things I think. I think I started to find I sort [00:17:20] of lost my purpose. I wasn’t something, um, I ended up just being like, you know, you [00:17:25] go and help a company if.

Payman Langroudi: You’re a band aid.

Henry Totterdell: And then yeah. And then, well, hopefully the [00:17:30] goal was to leave something a bit more, you know, to fix the broken bone, not just not just to hold it [00:17:35] together. Um, and it found like you go from factory to factory or, and it was [00:17:40] sort of like rinse and repeat. And I couldn’t see myself like doing that forever. I wanted to [00:17:45] like, you know, say what I do and people be like, oh, I know what that is. I wanted to sort of be something. [00:17:50]

Payman Langroudi: That’s quite.

Henry Totterdell: Funny. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The motivations are so funny.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It is. And [00:17:55] I want to be something that like could contribute to people and society.

Payman Langroudi: But did [00:18:00] you not feel like you were contributing by making the price of that can of drink cheaper?

Henry Totterdell: Sort of. But [00:18:05] I did have a manager once say to me, like, we’re talking about the moisture content [00:18:10] in mashed potato. And he’s like, you’ve got to try and think about it. Like if you make it more consistent, then you’re [00:18:15] benefiting society. And I think I lost it at that point. I was like, you know, that was that. And therefore, like, [00:18:20] because I wasn’t fully bought in, I was, I was never going to make partner or anything like super senior. So like [00:18:25] that just wasn’t my skill set. And I think I realised cool, that was the case. I was like, right, well, [00:18:30] I’ve got to get out of here. Um, so.

Payman Langroudi: What did you do.

Henry Totterdell: Next? So next I went [00:18:35] and did some internal consulting. So I joined a, joined a company just outside bath. That’s a pharmaceutical company, [00:18:40] a real niche part of pharmaceuticals I never knew existed. They prepared en masse, [00:18:45] uh, chemotherapy and antibiotics for IV injection. So yeah, they would [00:18:50] take 100 vials of a small molecule or a monoclonal antibody and turn it into [00:18:55] 20 IV drips, ship it out to a hospital so the nurse can just put a needle on and [00:19:00] put it in. So that was their that was their core business. And they had a home care business on the side that [00:19:05] um, administered treatments in patients homes and things like that, which is quite cool. So they found.

Payman Langroudi: Your job was [00:19:10] to optimise their sort of their operations.

Henry Totterdell: Exactly that. So at the time they had a [00:19:15] huge like waiting list of orders that weren’t being fulfilled. Like the order lead time was getting longer [00:19:20] and longer and longer. So working out well, how do we improve capacity on one hand, but also sort of like [00:19:25] tempered demands on the other to make make sure it’s much more balanced. And then sort of throw me [00:19:30] any problem I can get involved in, whether it was just purely operational, output focussed, or whether [00:19:35] it was sort of like helping us sort of manage quality improvements, for example, like the MHRA [00:19:40] was a huge.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting, like what comes in useful when you know. Yeah, I [00:19:45] remember I did, I did chemistry a level again, I couldn’t [00:19:50] see the applications properly or whatever. Yeah. And today I wish I paid more [00:19:55] attention at that. Yeah. Like, you know, or, and by the way, now I’m going back to chemistry. [00:20:00] Right. Um, but I never thought I’d be involved in chemistry. Yeah. But [00:20:05] now it’s like, it’s.

Henry Totterdell: Amazing how it comes full circle.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t doing a toothpaste, whatever. It’s, it’s all chemistry, right? [00:20:10]

Henry Totterdell: It comes straight back to you. And you have no idea that at some point.

Payman Langroudi: So that pharmaceutical world.

Henry Totterdell: Yes. [00:20:15]

Payman Langroudi: What what was it similar to all these other businesses that you’d consulted for.

Henry Totterdell: From [00:20:20] the outset, right? Raw materials go in. Yeah, product comes out and people [00:20:25] people manipulate that in the middle and turn it into that product.

Payman Langroudi: And so did you find because that was chemotherapy or [00:20:30] did you find that more purpose driven?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, hugely. Yeah. I like the fact that I [00:20:35] could see like you would get feedback from patients or from hospitals. And you could like, everybody [00:20:40] knows someone who’s had cancer, um, and has been impacted by it. And to know that you [00:20:45] could actually play a part in that value chain and help, um, help deliver the care [00:20:50] that people needed was, yeah, that felt much more purposeful than what I was doing before. And so I think [00:20:55] that started me back on the thoughts of, well, maybe I should go and look back at medicine. It was nice. [00:21:00] It was nice to move into that.

Payman Langroudi: So then what went wrong with that?

Henry Totterdell: What went wrong? Well.

Payman Langroudi: Why [00:21:05] didn’t you, you know, you know, you could have whatever. You could have gone deeper into that field.

Henry Totterdell: Absolutely. Could have [00:21:10] stayed deeper in that field. Um, what went wrong? Probably a couple [00:21:15] of things. I think an itch to do medicine never went away. I wouldn’t say something necessarily went [00:21:20] wrong with that. I just sort of started to ask myself, like, I guess I was given the [00:21:25] opportunity a couple of times to shape what my job would look like there. And each time I couldn’t couldn’t [00:21:30] pinpoint, like I could write down this job description. Sounds really good. I want to get involved with this and [00:21:35] this, but at the end of it, I wasn’t like, I can’t wait to sign that contract. And this itch to do medicine [00:21:40] didn’t go away. And I thought, well, if this keeps happening, then I need to. I [00:21:45] asked myself if I got to 70 or 80, would I regret not at least having researched [00:21:50] it and I thought I would. So I said, I’ll go and research medicine before I go any further, thinking [00:21:55] that would be enough for me to go. I’ve looked at it. I’ll bury that forever. But [00:22:00] what actually happened was I looked at it and thought, no, I really want to go in. I really want to go and study. And so at that [00:22:05] point, I said, well, I will stay working until I go and do my course. And then so yeah, found the path [00:22:10] that I actually wanted to follow.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s something to do with your dad’s influence that [00:22:15] this need to do medicine?

Henry Totterdell: Maybe. Perhaps not the need to. But I think the [00:22:20] things that we find interesting, like one of the things I missed most when I transitioned, [00:22:25] I guess, into the corporate world was just using my hands like I would be, you [00:22:30] know, typing in Excel or making slide decks all the time. And I missed just like making something and [00:22:35] being a bit more creative. And I know that was something like he absolutely loved [00:22:40] about like surgery. Yeah. Surgery in particular. He could operate all day, every day. And [00:22:45] I loved doing things like he did. So like he would do all the DIY at home and build things. And I’m like, well, you know what? I love doing [00:22:50] that too. I used to my toys when I was a kid were always about building things and making things. [00:22:55] And so I think I really realised that actually I missed hugely that part of, of, um, [00:23:00] of a career and really, really needed that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s interesting, right? You the [00:23:05] training to become a dentist or, or an engineer. Yeah, yeah. If someone [00:23:10] has a 12 year old, I tell them, hey, get him to build things.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [00:23:15] Oh, totally.

Payman Langroudi: You know, get him, get him into DIY and all that. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Know how to use your hands to actually.

Payman Langroudi: Do. [00:23:20]

Henry Totterdell: Something?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. We do a composite hands on course. Depeche. Honestly, [00:23:25] once in a generation. Talent. Yeah. He says the thing that gave him the most was design and technology a [00:23:30] level.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, it doesn’t surprise me.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve got more than physics or chemistry or biology. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: One [00:23:35] of our lecturers always says that he finds the the students who have done a lot of DIY [00:23:40] or similar, they just know how to problem solve and know how to use their hands and, and achieve [00:23:45] things with what they’ve got in front of them and the tools. So it’s definitely useful.

Payman Langroudi: So how long was it between deciding [00:23:50] you were going to leave engineering and start dentistry? The [00:23:55] decision to do that and actually doing it.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, probably two and a half [00:24:00] years.

Payman Langroudi: Save some money.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So I had to, I had to save money firstly in order to, to fund [00:24:05] it. Uh, I then had to check where I wanted to go and also reassure myself [00:24:10] that it was actually the right decision. And go through that wavering process of like, am I [00:24:15] really.

Payman Langroudi: Did you go to some dentist?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I went to shadow some dentists, gave a bunch of dentists a cool, just had coffee [00:24:20] with them, uh, you know, spoke to dentists a lot at the time. I was dating a dentist, so that was really [00:24:25] useful. Got really good insight into, uh, into it. Um, and then yeah, so two and half years and [00:24:30] then you’ve got to go through the application cycle.

Payman Langroudi: So which is tough as well, right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And then wait to start. [00:24:35] It’s probably one of the hardest bits. I think it’s because so many people try to get into dentistry these [00:24:40] days.

Payman Langroudi: And how do they view grads.

Henry Totterdell: Um, it varies by university. I [00:24:45] felt, uh, when I went to Bristol and I looked around, I got a real sense [00:24:50] that they were so open to people with all different backgrounds, which really then made like attracted [00:24:55] me. I was like, right, okay. Like I feel like I can, I can get into this dental school, uh, [00:25:00] other dental schools. I’d ring up and say, hey, I’ve got a degree. I’ve got these A-levels. Like, what’s [00:25:05] the approach here? And they’d be like, oh, you need, I don’t know, biology and chemistry sat in the same year. I’m like, well, I can’t, [00:25:10] I can’t do that. I set my A levels 15 years ago like this just can’t. So it was a non-starter. [00:25:15] So I went to schools that felt like I felt most welcome when I looked around. Um, [00:25:20] it’s not saying I wasn’t welcome at other schools, but they were, they were the most, you know, adaptive in their application [00:25:25] process, which, which was useful.

Payman Langroudi: And how much do you pay? You pay like regular regular. [00:25:30]

Henry Totterdell: Uk tuition fees. Uk edition this year it’s nine 500. I think it’s just gone up. And then [00:25:35] next year is a bit more.

Payman Langroudi: So it makes no difference that you’re a grad in that respect.

Henry Totterdell: No difference. No, no. The only bit I [00:25:40] can’t get is because I’ve got an undergrad degree already. I can’t get the student funding, which is a pain. Yeah. [00:25:45]

Payman Langroudi: That’s. So you had to save up?

Henry Totterdell: Yes. I had to save up. And then of course, because you’re you’re not earning for [00:25:50] five years, whereas you used to be earning it’s change of lifestyle savings to live, see friends and have fun [00:25:55] still.

Payman Langroudi: And are you are you working on the side as.

Henry Totterdell: Much as I can? Yeah. So I’ve been quite fortunate. I think the [00:26:00] first three years they’re a bit less intense than the last two. So summer, just try and get a [00:26:05] contract for sort of ten, 12 weeks. And then I’ve just I’ve just started a new [00:26:10] project actually as of yesterday with a consultancy in London that specialises in health and [00:26:15] social care. So I’ll be helping, I’ll be working with a county council looking at, uh, [00:26:20] this sort of social care around mental health and learning disabilities education.

Payman Langroudi: So for doing that all at [00:26:25] the same time as the Dental course.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Do that on the side as much as I can. Um, so sometimes it’s [00:26:30] a couple of days a week, sometimes it’s nothing. And then I try and consolidate into the holidays what I can [00:26:35] and just basically trying to make sure that when I get to year five, I can still go and see my friends and have a have a good [00:26:40] time and enjoy life. Not just not just struggle through.

Payman Langroudi: And when you get in there as a grad, [00:26:45] yeah. Do you recognise the faces of these young 18 year olds? Like, do you see yourself in [00:26:50] them? And the I mean, obviously they’re trying to have a great time and you’re now being very serious, I guess. [00:26:55]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Were you going out there having a good time?

Henry Totterdell: Definitely much more focussed on like, [00:27:00] I’m at university for a reason to get the degree and then like get back on with, with my [00:27:05] new career. Um, yeah, it’s really nice actually seeing them go through that transition [00:27:10] of like, I can remember the first time I left home and arrived at uni and seeing them all go through [00:27:15] that. And you just see how quickly people grow at university to like how immature I was when I went to university [00:27:20] first time around that first week, and then three years later, you, you can look back and think, [00:27:25] oh wow, I knew nothing at 18. I’m now 21 and I probably still don’t know nothing. But yeah, you really start [00:27:30] to appreciate that growth. So it’s really lovely seeing them all go through that, that journey, journey of life. [00:27:35]

Payman Langroudi: Look, you’ve had a few years to sort of understand the, the sort of different [00:27:40] areas of engineering that you could have gone into and what you enjoy and what you don’t and all [00:27:45] that. Do you would you think about going forward like it’s different if we have [00:27:50] you in front of me and another third year sitting here who just, you know, 21 [00:27:55] years old, you know, that third year could easily say, look, I’m just going to try and do [00:28:00] a bit of everything, figure out what I like, and then decide from there where I’m going. You, [00:28:05] with your sort of experience of life so far, might have a different outlook [00:28:10] on that. I mean, what I’m what I’m getting at is, for [00:28:15] me, you enjoy anything you’re really good at.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [00:28:20] yeah, yeah. I think that’s true. I think everyone like we all.

Payman Langroudi: And you know, obviously [00:28:25] you can’t say, right. I could be really good plumber or I could be a really good vet or I could be a really good [00:28:30] rocket scientist. All right. But within dentistry, I think outside of oral surgery, which [00:28:35] is like slightly less lateral kind of skill, the rest of them, you [00:28:40] could, you could dive into any of those and enjoy the hell out [00:28:45] of them by getting better at them.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. I think that’s so true. I think that’s, [00:28:50] um, all humans are like that, right? We, we all always have a tendency to move towards the [00:28:55] things that we, we really enjoy. Yeah. I think, I think that’s one of the things that’s most exciting about dentistry is [00:29:00] that as I’m learning a new treatment. Every time I find myself enjoying more and more and more, and [00:29:05] I just can’t wait to do more of these treatments on patients, I can really learn what what I like when I’m actually [00:29:10] delivering that care to someone. Yeah. Um, and then I don’t feel I’ve [00:29:15] got that pathway mapped out yet. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I’m not necessarily saying you need to give me the full, full [00:29:20] life cycle. But but before we were talking, you were saying, you know, the idea of having a practice. Yeah. [00:29:25]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s which is a beautiful thing.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: A beautiful thing, a practice where, you know, you set the situation [00:29:30] in that practice and you do the best you can and you perfect it and perfect it and perfect it a beautiful thing. [00:29:35]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So that really excites me. It’s like the idea of creating something that’s a bit more than just [00:29:40] me as a dentist in a room. I want to create an environment for, for other people [00:29:45] and also for society as well, for like for patients to come and actually get the care that they, [00:29:50] they deserve.

Payman Langroudi: And the next man can say 50 practices. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:29:55] then I’d say the sooner he decided that or she decided that the sooner, [00:30:00] the sooner you could, like, think about private equity and all the stuff that that takes. Yeah. You know, it’s not it’s [00:30:05] not like going to the bank and saying, can I borrow £500,000? It’s a much bigger situation [00:30:10] than that.

Henry Totterdell: It’s so true. I think I’ve probably set myself a deadline to get things up [00:30:15] and running with that sort of like 3 to 5 years out of the university. I want to pass a course, [00:30:20] like become a dentist. That’s step one. Do my DFT. Yeah. I’m quite excited about the idea of doing DCT [00:30:25] just because I think the clinical learning would be.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s normally that’s in a hospital [00:30:30] right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. In a hospital one one of the things that I worry I’ll miss most when [00:30:35] I become a dentist is the bigger team. Like I’m very aware that.

Payman Langroudi: It’s much [00:30:40] more social in DCT than in practice.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And that’s what.

Payman Langroudi: Practice is very isolating. The first time [00:30:45] you sit in it, you even feel it in in in PhD. Yeah. The first time you sit in that [00:30:50] room, which generally is the worst room in the practice because you’re the PhD. Um, with that nurse [00:30:55] and you think, is this it? Is this room everything? [00:31:00]

Henry Totterdell: That’s one of the things I think will I find hardest to adjust to you. It’ll just be me and my nurse [00:31:05] and then the patient who comes in every, I don’t know, ten minutes, perhaps you get a new patient and missing [00:31:10] that bigger team. So DCT excites me from that that point of view as well. And then I’ll spend the next [00:31:15] two to 1 to 3 years just trying to become good at dentistry and, you know, confident [00:31:20] in what I’m doing. Understanding is still huge journey to go. And then I know by that point I’ll [00:31:25] be on a track to either. Right. Let’s work out how do I get a practice set up? Or if I want [00:31:30] to specialise, like how do I go and how do I go and do that? Um, but I’m just enjoying like finding [00:31:35] each new treatment quite exciting at the moment. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so you’ve, you’ve, you’ve organised [00:31:40] these sort of extracurricular learning for your, for your peers. Yeah. [00:31:45] Out of the ones that you go through some of the things that you’ve, you’ve done. So tell me what you thought of them. [00:31:50]

Henry Totterdell: In a nutshell. It’s, uh, it’s sort of like a community to introduce the dental school students [00:31:55] to innovation that is present in dentistry right now. Um, sort of [00:32:00] stuff we don’t learn on our course every day. So we had a couple of events so far. We try and do a big, uh, [00:32:05] sort of like I guess Keystone or cornerstone event every term. Um, so one was about the [00:32:10] digital patient journey. So everything from, uh, sort of like the clinical exam. [00:32:15] So the note taking and making that digital or semi-automated with tools like Heroku followed [00:32:20] by new digital scanners, and then sort of like chairside milling. And [00:32:25] so you can see that whole patient journey from they turn up to they get definitive treatment. The next one was much [00:32:30] more about the business of dentistry. We don’t learn anything actually about business [00:32:35] in dental school from the very simple, like what is revenue? What is profit? What [00:32:40] are costs? Like, we don’t really know how much everything costs yet. We’re they’re squirting half a tube of ledermix [00:32:45] onto a thing to use a tiny pea sized amount.

Payman Langroudi: So who did you get to talk about [00:32:50] that?

Henry Totterdell: Uh, so we had, um, three speakers for that. We had one of our supervisors, [00:32:55] Brad Hall. He’s brilliant. He’s got his own practice in Bristol, but he’s just so passionate about [00:33:00] sharing his knowledge and expertise with students. So he talked to us a very [00:33:05] high level overview of what a what a practice is and everything he thinks about when when he clocks [00:33:10] off from surgery every night, what else does he think about? We then had an ex Bristol grad called Edith. [00:33:15] Edith Kagan, um, who has just set up a practice in Bristol. So he went from Bristol grad [00:33:20] to having his own practice. What was his journey like? How did he go through it? And then finally we had, um, [00:33:25] a company called Spot on Business Planning. I know them, you know them. Yeah. So they came and gave a talk on cost controllers. [00:33:30] Yeah. How do they, how do they help you actually understand what the costs are involved in every appointment? [00:33:35] And then how do you use that to maximise your revenue? Um, so that gave like a really nice [00:33:40] introduction to like what’s an endless topic for?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, which is very [00:33:45] cool. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So that’s sort of our big events. And then we have, uh, we started to do smaller events [00:33:50] because the big ones take quite a long time to organise and you’ve got to find people to pay for pizza and things like that to get students [00:33:55] to come. So we’ve got like some brilliant, brilliant supervisors at Dental School. So we said, [00:34:00] well, how can we utilise their enthusiasm more? And so we’re now doing lunchtime lunch and learns [00:34:05] on photography with one of our supervisors. And also we’ve got several Dental microscopes [00:34:10] at the school. So having our endo leads show us how to actually use those microscopes, not just for endo, but [00:34:15] even just for taking pictures of a prep you’ve done for a filling. So, and just trying to get as many students [00:34:20] through those events as possible and, and give them a bit more to their course, a bit more around experience [00:34:25] and help them use the tools that are available to us.

Payman Langroudi: It’s super important, man, because the rate at which the Dental [00:34:30] course changes is really sluggish.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It is. Yeah. [00:34:35]

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know what the process of changing the Dental course, what happens? Like who decides what, [00:34:40] but it doesn’t change.

Henry Totterdell: It’s a good question. A lot has to go. I think it’s probably a legacy [00:34:45] of university always being quite bureaucratic. There’s always committees, and then you’ve got the regulator that you’ve got to [00:34:50] satisfy on the side, and therefore you end up with like, well, if you want to change this on the course, we’ll do that [00:34:55] in two years time. Yeah, I’m sure it could change faster with really good communication relationship [00:35:00] with the regulator. And then sort of like a determination to be a bit more agile in [00:35:05] the school, but it takes a big change from everything.

Payman Langroudi: Scanners as far as if you weren’t doing the scanner [00:35:10] piece, does the school do a scanner piece?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. So we’re at Bristol, I don’t know. The school has a slightly different [00:35:15] setup to other dental schools. We’ve got brand new school right next to Temple Meads station [00:35:20] opened in my first year. So 2023.

Payman Langroudi: How lucky for you.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, it couldn’t have been [00:35:25] more lucky with that. Like really, really fortunate. But I think one thing they have done is sort of separated themselves from [00:35:30] the NHS. So the school is much more in control about the equipment we have and what’s in the what’s [00:35:35] in the course, what’s taught, which will allow them to move more quickly because the school decides [00:35:40] now what’s taught, but it also means they’ve been able to invest in things like scanners. So we’ve just had delivery, I think, of 11 [00:35:45] new scanners, and we’re all slowly starting to have an intro to how to use the scanner. As we’re learning [00:35:50] how to do crown preps, we can then go and learn how to scan it. So the schools really like forward thinking. It’s [00:35:55] grabbing it by the horns and saying, well, if you’ve got like, what can we do to actually get students ready for how dentistry [00:36:00] will look when they graduate? So it’s quite an exciting place to be from that point of view.

Payman Langroudi: So, so far, what sparked your interest. [00:36:05]

Henry Totterdell: In, in general dentistry? Um, so clinically, [00:36:10] I’m very, very junior, but did my first extraction the other week. Oral surgery is brilliant. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a wonderful moment. The first extraction.

Henry Totterdell: It was a wonderful moment. And like the tutors there are fantastic. [00:36:20] The patients are great. You know, they’re all volunteers. So I don’t know how they feel about having people who’ve [00:36:25] never done it before, but it was just something really satisfying about, I think. I think perhaps it’s easiest to get [00:36:30] clarity on what you’re doing, like patients there with a tooth that can’t be restored or they’ve opted to have it out, [00:36:35] you give the treatment, send them home, and as long as it’s all good, you don’t need to review it. It’s done. [00:36:40] Um, so I’ve loved that. Um, and then just the other bits that I’ve absolutely loved is just [00:36:45] having a patient in the chair and just being able to help them. Um, I’m probably too junior in like other procedures [00:36:50] right now, whether it’s restorative.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a privilege, man. It’s a privilege when someone [00:36:55] trusts you to. I just had some dental work done. I hadn’t had any for [00:37:00] years and years and years. And my wife was a dentist. And she’s very, very gentle. Yeah, but [00:37:05] it’s horrible, man. It is horrible. And you have to keep remembering that because as you’re nowhere near at that moment [00:37:10] of sort of where it becomes second nature, but very soon it becomes second nature. By the time you’re [00:37:15] 50, you’re giving 20 injections a day and getting blasé about it. It’s so [00:37:20] true. But each time on the receiving end of that injection. Right.

Henry Totterdell: That’s the first one I’ve had in years.

Payman Langroudi: Horrible [00:37:25] feeling, you know, and then even a scale and polish. Isn’t that nice?

Henry Totterdell: No, it’s not.

Payman Langroudi: From the patient [00:37:30] experience.

Henry Totterdell: Especially, they catch you with the tip of the scaler. Yeah. So just having a patient in chair and being [00:37:35] able to, to help them and, and especially I’ve had patients long enough now that I can see [00:37:40] them improve on their own or just change their diet or something where I’m like, okay, [00:37:45] I’m actually having an impact on this person’s life. Then you do a filling on an anterior and you can see them look at it and [00:37:50] look at the photo of it next to you and you’re like, okay, you can just see the smile come on their face. And [00:37:55] so that bit I’m probably loving more than more than anything, I think.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, you know, the [00:38:00] funniest thing is some of the best bits of being a dentist are like patient says, thank [00:38:05] you. Yeah. And it like really means it. Yeah. It makes you feel so good because you went out of your way for them. Yeah. [00:38:10] It’s such a funny thing. You know, it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t mean that much, but it means it’s the best thing [00:38:15] about the job. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Totally agree.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s.

Henry Totterdell: I think that’s one of the things that I really miss most in like my [00:38:20] old job was just like, not like almost not feeling like I could see what I was helping. Whereas [00:38:25] now I can and like, now I know that I’ve had an impact on someone’s life. Yeah. And you know, that might be on one hand, like, [00:38:30] really like egocentric on my side, but actually, like, I find it so rewarding [00:38:35] to know that I can make a change to that person.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s, let’s get on to the darker [00:38:40] part of the pod. Yeah. We like to talk about errors.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Clinical [00:38:45] errors.

Henry Totterdell: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of us made our clinical errors in dental school.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I think everyone does. [00:38:50]

Payman Langroudi: I think I perforated in dental school. I, I put I put the [00:38:55] forceps around the wrong side tooth. Okay. And then realised yeah, I realised. [00:39:00] Yeah. But I think I’d injected the wrong side. By that time.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:39:05] else did I do? Well, those were the worst. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: We all got to learn. [00:39:10] Yeah, it’s part of learning. What about you? Um, there’s probably like two. Two quite simple [00:39:15] ones, I guess. Spring to mind so far. Um, one of the first times I ever scaled and polished someone, [00:39:20] they had a lot of calculus. Um, they had a mobile tooth and scaled either side of that, whereas [00:39:25] I probably should have left it because calculus was holding the tooth in, or at least keeping it more stable. [00:39:30] It needs to be removed anyway, but the patient wasn’t ready to have it removed. They didn’t know that that procedure.

Payman Langroudi: Out there [00:39:35] and then.

Henry Totterdell: It didn’t pop out. Luckily, no. And I’ve since done an impression on it and it still plenty of Vaseline. It’s still there. [00:39:40] Yeah, yeah, but it’s given me some study models. But it’s just a simple thing like that. Like the patient is expecting [00:39:45] to have to clean their teeth. The risk was they went home without a teeth, without there without [00:39:50] being consented for it. And so I felt pretty, pretty bad after that. Uh, and then another one [00:39:55] as assisting. So we all assist like the year fives, um, and just got the wrong cement out for a crown. [00:40:00] Uh, luckily it was still a suitable cement. Um, but the moment when I picked up the packaging [00:40:05] and realised that I picked the wrong cement and mixed it, we stuck the crown in with it, [00:40:10] my heart dropped and then.

Payman Langroudi: The guide asked for a different cement.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And these two things, the packaging is [00:40:15] exactly the same. Just a different, different word. Um, it’s still some Zoe based cement. Um [00:40:20] and so yeah, mixed it up, gave it to them. We glued it on, it was stuck. And then I picked [00:40:25] it up. I was like, oh, that’s not what he asked for. I just had to, you know, you just own up. You’re like, hey, I’ve [00:40:30] made a mistake. Is this okay? And luckily, like he was like, yeah, that’s absolutely fine for this material. [00:40:35] We’re okay. And I was like, phew, thank goodness.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the worst thing that’s happened to you.

Henry Totterdell: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: But there must [00:40:40] be something else.

Henry Totterdell: Ten patient appointments so far.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So it’s, um. Yeah, it’s [00:40:45] quite early days. You know, I’ve probably like, prodded someone a bit hard with a scaler or [00:40:50] something like that. But you know, I’ve only done two, I think two fillings so far.

Payman Langroudi: Should we get into engineering errors? [00:40:55] Oh, God.

Henry Totterdell: There were so many of those. Like just consulting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Consulting. Oh, yeah. [00:41:00] Can you tell me a story there where you thought things could have gone better?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, gosh. There’s lots. Um, [00:41:05] there’s very simple again. So when I was a grad, it’s probably like six weeks in. I forgot to print something [00:41:10] out for someone, but it’s like an a one sheet that this guy had to present to his whole team with. And [00:41:15] I turn up and he’s like, Henry, where’s my printing? Like everyone just stood around him. Like the office is like 20 minute [00:41:20] walk away. It’s a huge dockyard. I got a dressing down that day like from him, like rightly so. Like [00:41:25] such a simple error. I had a checklist of what I needed, and I hadn’t checked, checked, checked through that. Um, [00:41:30] I’m trying to think of some other ones. Factories were always fun. Um, I, [00:41:35] I spent a year working in Canada in a meat factory. It was just [00:41:40] south of Toronto in Hamilton. Um, so we live in live in Toronto. On the weekends [00:41:45] and commute down to Hamilton. I love Toronto. I just love Canada.

Payman Langroudi: Me too.

Henry Totterdell: There’s something [00:41:50] so.

Payman Langroudi: Good. Canadians.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And, um, uh, I’m trying to think of the specifics [00:41:55] around the example, but this is a meat processing facility. It was all about making sliced [00:42:00] ham for companies like subway or the equivalent that they have in, in Canada. And [00:42:05] so you could change a setting on that slicing machine, and you go from neat stacks of ham to like just an [00:42:10] enormous pile. And I remember one time we were trying to change some settings in [00:42:15] order to make the. There were two things. Firstly, can it slice faster so you can get through each log of ham more [00:42:20] quickly, but also, can you get those stacks to stack perfectly so they go straight into the [00:42:25] the packaging. And we made an error where these, uh, these, these basically was jamming [00:42:30] up the sealing machine. So like ham was not sitting inside. It’s jamming up. And again, I just remember that was [00:42:35] due to us changing the settings, and the lion man just picked up this pile of ham and just slams it against [00:42:40] the wall. And he was like, really? Like, I loved it because he was a super like, emotional. You knew exactly what he was thinking. [00:42:45] He was so emotional and like, wore his heart on his sleeve. But at that moment, like the whole line just stopped. [00:42:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so manufacturing is so interesting. I’ve got a couple of friends in manufacturing, and once I went to a one [00:42:55] of their events, like a trade show where they buy machines. Yeah. [00:43:00] And I was so surprised, like the, if you buy the, if you’re buying some line that [00:43:05] makes something like a chocolate bar. Yeah, the number of chocolate bars per [00:43:10] minute that it puts out can double or triple the price of that machine. Yeah, just [00:43:15] the speed of it.

Henry Totterdell: It’s amazing. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting. And when we’re talking machines, they’re like £1 million [00:43:20] each. Suddenly it’s a 2 million or £3 million machine that does the same thing quicker.

Henry Totterdell: But when they [00:43:25] make, you know, what was in the ready meal factory, we’re making a million meals a week, right? Yeah. [00:43:30] You need a machine that can perform reliably and with with very little waste [00:43:35] like manufacturing margins, particularly in commoditized things like food and drink, are so low [00:43:40] that, you know, £100 million factory might only make £1 million a year on top. So everything has [00:43:45] to be ship shaped.

Payman Langroudi: Did you not think of starting your own engineering [00:43:50] business?

Henry Totterdell: Um, I mean, the idea I danced with the idea.

Payman Langroudi: Because that would have that would [00:43:55] have given you meaning as well. Right. It would have your own business. You could have focussed it on any aspect. [00:44:00] Yeah. Did you, did you sort of have a risk issue with it or was the call of medicine [00:44:05] was too strong or what was it.

Henry Totterdell: Probably I’m quite open to risk. I think the fact [00:44:10] I’ve gone back to studying. Yeah. That’s like probably the sort of like I’ll jump in and [00:44:15] think later about the consequences. Not with everything. I know when to like, I need to understand the risk first. [00:44:20] Probably a bit of like, I probably didn’t feel I was strong enough at anything to say, [00:44:25] hey, I, I’ve got a brand around this skill that I can set up my own business for and [00:44:30] that’s probably the limiting factor. It would have been great fun to do, but I think a few [00:44:35] years away being nearly strong enough to to do that. So I just don’t think I’d have been very good at it. Yeah. [00:44:40] Or or not ready to do it or not. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not for everyone, right. It’s not for everyone at [00:44:45] all.

Henry Totterdell: I was going to see it much more clearly of how I’d get there as a dentist. I [00:44:50] can really see that path and and map it out.

Payman Langroudi: What’s a lecture [00:44:55] that comes to mind if I say some some lecture? By the way, feel free [00:45:00] to go in both directions. A lecture that really stands out to you. That sort of rang [00:45:05] as a brilliant lecture.

Henry Totterdell: I’ve got a few. Um there’s one I always remember from [00:45:10] my engineering days. I think it was my probably my third year and it was uh, the [00:45:15] combustion engine had just started that module and the lecturer walks in, covers all the smoke [00:45:20] alarms and then just sets lights, this thing at the front of the class. And what it turns out to be is like an [00:45:25] old beans can. He’s just drilled a little hole in the top, put some fuel in and set fire to it. And that’s the [00:45:30] most simple engine you can get because then you just get this pop, pop pop pop pop pop pop, pop as the you know, it [00:45:35] explodes, goes out, comes back. And then I just remember that because it just captivated me. [00:45:40] And I was like, right, I know why I’m doing this module. Um, and then more recently at dental school, there’s probably [00:45:45] been a couple, we had a evening lecture once by a guy called Doctor Nasser. Yeah, [00:45:50] yeah. The implantologist. Um, not that that’s a phrase, is it? I never know what [00:45:55] it is.

Payman Langroudi: People say.

Henry Totterdell: It. Yeah. Um but he came and showed his work and what he does and went [00:46:00] through 3 or 4 cases one evening at the dental school. And it really, I think it just [00:46:05] really opened my eyes to like how far you can go in dentistry. And that learning never stops. And, [00:46:10] you know, you can really focus down one narrow niche and become so incredibly good at it and [00:46:15] passionate. And that’s what gave me that buzz of like, cool, I can, I can see, see where I’m going. [00:46:20] Um, what can I think of for a more junior lecture? [00:46:25] Let me just check.

Payman Langroudi: I can. You’re good with blood.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, I’m absolutely fine [00:46:30] with blood. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you think implantology surgery? Oral surgery?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I’ve never been particularly [00:46:35] squeamish or anything like that.

Payman Langroudi: So squeamish. But. But, you know, like, some dentists just script [00:46:40] themselves and think. I’m not going to be a surgeon.

Henry Totterdell: No, I like that idea. Yeah. Not necessarily [00:46:45] of like all the blood and stuff, but like, I just it doesn’t put me off like, yeah, [00:46:50] well, it comes on.

Payman Langroudi: Super focusing on, on implants and yeah. Or perio [00:46:55] or, or surgery because I think there’s such a shortage of dentists who are happy [00:47:00] to jump into that area.

Henry Totterdell: No, I’d be quite excited to. Yeah. I’ve never, never been put off by that that [00:47:05] at all. But no, the implants bits got me thinking about another lecture again. It was another evening one, um [00:47:10] a guy called Pratik who’s just set up, it’s a Swindon dental clinic, [00:47:15] something like that. He’s part of the ITI but he just came to give an evening lecture on, uh, [00:47:20] just how do you care for an implant? And he just communicated so, so simply [00:47:25] like just quite complex ideas and made it so open to like me as a student. And yet all [00:47:30] the other dentists who are sat in the room who do implants day in and day out and it just yeah, [00:47:35] part of that just made me think, cool, that’s really great teaching. Um, I feel way more confident. I [00:47:40] feel welcome in this community. And yeah, it was really nice because that’s what I’m searching for. As I, as I [00:47:45] go through my training.

Payman Langroudi: We get some, uh, students onto our composite course [00:47:50] to watch. You know, they don’t, we don’t give them the hands on bit. Yeah, but just to [00:47:55] watch and it’s so interesting, like how they, they’ve never seen some of them have never seen anything [00:48:00] like that. Yeah. And so inspired.

Henry Totterdell: I can imagine.

Payman Langroudi: So inspired. [00:48:05] You should come by.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. I’d love to.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ll organise that.

Henry Totterdell: Oh thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Um so inspired by [00:48:10] it. And the question of education itself has come up a lot for me. Um, but [00:48:15] you know, like we do a lot of education, we do a lot of online education and we do a lot of um, [00:48:20] in-person, um, courses and I [00:48:25] go to a lot of courses. What is it that makes [00:48:30] a course brilliant? Over, over one that isn’t so brilliant. Right.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [00:48:35] that’s a good question, I think.

Payman Langroudi: And you’ve set up these courses basically we might [00:48:40] as well call them courses. I mean you’re not you’re not selling tickets to them, but they are courses.

Henry Totterdell: I think you’ve got to focus on outcomes. [00:48:45] Like what can that person take away? They can actually action, um, especially in a practical session. [00:48:50] And for that person to actually go away thinking that they can do, do it. So you give them confidence. [00:48:55] I think if you spend half the day just, I don’t know, waffling about yourself or. [00:49:00]

Payman Langroudi: No, but you say outcomes, but like, you know, Amy showed a case. Yeah. You’re not, you’re not going to action [00:49:05] that the day after tomorrow. But but the inspiration piece is as important.

Henry Totterdell: I think it’s so important. [00:49:10] Yeah. And I guess it depends like, what is the goal of the course? Like the goal of me going to that course [00:49:15] was to have my eyes open to more about dentistry and the industry I’m getting into. Therefore, [00:49:20] I got everything I wanted wanted from it. I guess if it was a practical course you [00:49:25] want much more about, I can go away confident that I can actually do what. I’ve come to this course to learn [00:49:30] to do. Um, so yeah, I think you’ve got to think about it. What’s the goal? Why has the course been put on? Um, [00:49:35] I.

Payman Langroudi: Think a really important goal of if I’m, if I’m going to, especially post Covid, right, where [00:49:40] you can get a bunch of information online, a really important course of a goal of a [00:49:45] course is to meet people. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Totally.

Payman Langroudi: To bounce ideas off each [00:49:50] other there. Yeah. But also to have these people to call on [00:49:55] later. Yeah. Even though we’ve got much more communities, [00:50:00] if, if you want to call it like, I don’t know, you could, there could be a dentist in Peru [00:50:05] who you feel as close to as someone who sat next to you at a course because you’re on [00:50:10] Instagram.

Henry Totterdell: Constantly.

Payman Langroudi: Messaging him. Yeah, there is something special. If you’re going to get up and leave [00:50:15] your house and go to this Event. Yeah. Something has to happen [00:50:20] for me. Something has to happen that makes it worth leaving your house.

Henry Totterdell: I couldn’t agree more. [00:50:25] Yeah, I think.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a.

Henry Totterdell: Magic thing is so important.

Payman Langroudi: But there’s a magic in whatever [00:50:30] robots and AI come in, there’s going to be, you know, breaking bread with your [00:50:35] family or with your peers isn’t going to get replaced by AI. Yeah. So there’s [00:50:40] a magic in humans, you know, why do I bother getting you to come to the studio rather [00:50:45] than we could have done this all on Zoom. There’s a, there’s a magic in humans being next [00:50:50] to each other and interacting.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think like humans must exist to [00:50:55] like connect with each other.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And to build relationships. That was one of the hardest things when going to dental [00:51:00] school. Actually. A lot of lectures now are online. Yeah. So pre-recorded and you’re like, oh, [00:51:05] I’m just sat here. Me and my screen. Yeah. Like I think the thing that that leads us to miss [00:51:10] out on most is sitting with our peers all day, every day being like, what did you think of that lecture? Like, what did you learn? Like, [00:51:15] did you understand this? Yeah. And I think you’re spot on with like, if you go somewhere, it is because you build connection [00:51:20] as well as you get the, the key objects of the course. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m doing this ministry [00:51:25] of sound, which I told you about. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: No, that sounds super exciting.

Payman Langroudi: Really, really focussed on that. One thing I find really [00:51:30] difficult is, is changing the energy in the room. And like sometimes just [00:51:35] some, some speakers, some rooms, some lighting energy is down. Yeah. Right. [00:51:40] In this place, you can push a couple of buttons and you can completely handle the energy.

Henry Totterdell: It’s one of the skills of [00:51:45] a DJ, right? You can read a room and make those subtle differences just by pressing play.

Payman Langroudi: On.

Henry Totterdell: The [00:51:50] lights, the smoke, or the next song. Yeah. It’s, uh, it’s a, a tough, uh, [00:51:55] a tough skill. I think that especially if you struggle with like some, some people, you can just listen to [00:52:00] all day when they talk and they’ve just got this natural energy, charisma. And I think people who are super passionate [00:52:05] about what they do, like just always interesting to listen about, like they just emanate [00:52:10] energy and passion. And I think if you don’t have that, it can be be very, very hard.

Payman Langroudi: But, [00:52:15] you know, as as a dentist, one of the key skills is, is soft skills, [00:52:20] right? And you’ll, you’ll notice as you become more involved [00:52:25] that you’ll find some of your friends have got one and not the other. Mhm. Yeah. [00:52:30] And, and some have both. Yeah. Some have neither. Yeah. Um, [00:52:35] but so interesting, insomuch as from the patient’s perspective. I [00:52:40] can’t tell what you’re up to in my mouth.

Henry Totterdell: Oh. No idea.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So most [00:52:45] of what a really diligent dentist does is kind of for himself in a way. Of [00:52:50] course it’s for the patient, but no one, no one will know about about that. The [00:52:55] way that you wedged that matrix. Yeah. Not even your nurse can really see what’s [00:53:00] going on. So true. Yeah. And and so okay, we do that. That’s what being a professional [00:53:05] is, right? Is, is, is what you do when no one else is looking. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: That’s the integrity. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: Defines. Defines a professional. Over every other category of person. Right. [00:53:15] Integrity. Um, but the soft skills are even [00:53:20] more important in a way.

Henry Totterdell: That’s so important. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, um, I think people.

Payman Langroudi: Often [00:53:25] look like you’ve got those. You’re like very naturally good at talking and connecting and all that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is that something [00:53:30] that’s developed in like, like accelerated development of that while you’ve been in dental school?

Henry Totterdell: I [00:53:35] think I think most of it developed that first time I went to uni and then through consulting a consultant. Yeah. [00:53:40] It was, you’d have to have that, um, just confidence. [00:53:45] You could walk into a room of 100 people and just say hi and find the person you needed to talk [00:53:50] to. And so you’ve got very good at just talking to anyone and everyone. Um, and then I think, I think [00:53:55] probably also just grew into it as I got older through well through first time at university and then dental school, [00:54:00] I guess is helping, uh, cement that. It’s certainly making me think more about, um, how [00:54:05] do I understand the person in front of me and work out what’s important to them? Like, are they the engineer who [00:54:10] wants to know absolutely everything that you’re doing in my mouth. Or do they actually just care more that they’re going to get the procedure [00:54:15] at the end, and they’re comfortable just knowing that they don’t want to know the details because it makes them feel squeamish.

Payman Langroudi: And the emotional [00:54:20] intelligence to, to understand which is which. And one big mistake I see young dentists make [00:54:25] is they download everything in their head into the patient. Oh.

Henry Totterdell: Just I must read all of this off because [00:54:30] that’s how I do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s kind of sometimes it’s interesting to us. Yeah. Sometimes they think they’re being a really [00:54:35] good dentist by telling the patient everything. But very rare that a patient wants to know the details [00:54:40] of the way you’re going to cut. Yeah. It’s so true. They’re much more interested in the outcome. Yeah. That’s [00:54:45] that’s something.

Henry Totterdell: I think often. Yeah. And I most will tell you how much they want to know as well. And you can gauge it like if they [00:54:50] start asking more questions.

Payman Langroudi: Intelligent. Yeah. But a lot of, a lot of us are so busy trying to just [00:54:55] get through this moment that we forget that that’s a key point. Yeah. How [00:55:00] much does the patient should the patient know about this? Yeah. I mean, the patient doesn’t need to know which [00:55:05] anaesthetic you’re using for the sake of.

Henry Totterdell: They just want to know, will I feel pain? Yeah. And like, for how long? [00:55:10] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Exactly. Right. Um, so that’s one mistake I see. And then the other mistake I see sometimes is too [00:55:15] many choices. Mhm. Um, you know, we’re taught that sort of surgical sieve way of doing [00:55:20] things, you know, missing tooth. It could be a denture.

Henry Totterdell: It could be a bridge.

Payman Langroudi: Every single [00:55:25] tell them every single one and not make a recommendation. Yeah. Because, you know, we think, oh, it’s patient [00:55:30] centred. The patient decides it’s all well and good. But you know, whenever you’re in that [00:55:35] situation, you know, I’ve got a lawyer sometimes. Yeah. And he’s saying these are the three ways we could go. The difference between a good lawyer [00:55:40] and a great lawyer is which way would you go? Yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And they know which one’s right for you. [00:55:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because they understand you. It’s so true. I think on our consent forms, there’s always [00:55:50] the. What other options can you do? And you have to be like, we can do all of these things and just tell them. But you tend to [00:55:55] skip over those not not fully, but just give the lightweight intro of what they are. Yeah. But yeah. [00:56:00]

Payman Langroudi: Something else I would, I would sort of caution you on is as, as a junior, [00:56:05] you think that if you go through all the things that could go wrong, you’re kind of scaring [00:56:10] the patient or you’re putting them off the treatment. But it’s kind [00:56:15] of reassuring, kind of reassuring to know that, you know, what could go wrong. Yeah. You know.

Henry Totterdell: The [00:56:20] hard one to get right though.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah yeah. It’s a delicate needle to dance.

Henry Totterdell: Patient come back and be like, oh, you [00:56:25] never said that. Yeah. Yeah. You do want them to.

Payman Langroudi: And the other important [00:56:30] best three words you can learn is, um, I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember [00:56:35] as a young dentist thinking I’m never allowed to say, I don’t know.

Henry Totterdell: And it’s so important to [00:56:40] know when to stop.

Payman Langroudi: No, but I don’t know. It’s such an important like, now when I talk to anyone, anyone, [00:56:45] and they say, I don’t know. I respect them more, not less. You know, [00:56:50] the last thing I want is someone who’s just making it up. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: If you don’t say, I don’t know, it gets you into so much trouble. [00:56:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Like you just say, oh, I can work that out. It’s like, well, can you. And then you come back and you fail and they’re [00:57:00] like, instantly. And it just builds trust, right? The moment you I.

Payman Langroudi: Mean, I had, I had it, I had it in my head [00:57:05] that patients think once you’ve done an examination that might have taken 20 minutes, you must [00:57:10] know what happens next. That should be a simple process. Step two. And then [00:57:15] I look at some of the top dentists in the country sometimes spend four hours thinking about which [00:57:20] way to go.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, but there’s so many different permutations of all the treatment you can do. I’ve really, [00:57:25] really started to see that that difference when I talked about oral surgery. And then I go on to restorative, [00:57:30] like the restorative permutations of like, what do you do all this treatment in?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:57:35] I mean, you get three, three dentists, five treatment plans.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s so true.

Payman Langroudi: That’s really true. [00:57:40]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And then like two patients with exactly the same problems, but like two different treatment plans again, because [00:57:45] it suits them and it’s right for them.

Payman Langroudi: What regrets have you got? Do you [00:57:50] regret coming into it as late as you did? Would you sort of maybe not done the pharmaceutical [00:57:55] job or whatever?

Henry Totterdell: Oh yes and no. I mean, I would never [00:58:00] have been ready to do it, I think. Five years ago, just financially, [00:58:05] probably more than anything. Um, I would love to have, I think worked out. [00:58:10] If I go back, I’d like to know what I could do. Like 15 years ago that [00:58:15] would have helped me get greater clarity on what I really would love in work. It’s probably [00:58:20] like that million dollar question. Like nobody, like you can’t quite crack it. If someone can crack [00:58:25] that, then like it’ll change our education system and like careers of people forever. Uh, that’s probably [00:58:30] like, I don’t feel like I can really regret it though, because I don’t feel like it’s something I didn’t learn. [00:58:35]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny word. Yeah, it’s a funny word, but you seem like quite an ambitious person.

Henry Totterdell: I feel yeah, fairly ambitious. [00:58:40] I would like to I would love to have done this earlier in life. Like that’s probably if I could change one thing, [00:58:45] it would be to have done it, done it earlier because I just feel like quite excited about the, the course [00:58:50] I’m on now. I can really see where I’m going. I can see all the different routes and almost like the logic that I’ll take [00:58:55] to decide which one I’ll go down. So yeah, I wouldn’t say a huge, huge regrets.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:59:00] like that, man. I like that, you know, the I remember the the grad [00:59:05] in my course. He was very good. He was very good as well. But the rest of us were getting drunk. [00:59:10] He was working shit out. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: I try and get the balance right. [00:59:15]

Payman Langroudi: You know.

Henry Totterdell: There’s two bits to dental school, isn’t there? There’s the. You’ve got to pass your exams, which are like all [00:59:20] the the academia. And then there’s becoming a dentist. I’m really trying to focus on the like [00:59:25] becoming a dentist, like passed the exams I need to and make sure I’m safe and like have the [00:59:30] background knowledge. I do, but actually.

Payman Langroudi: But do you have something in your head that’s kind of saying, oh, I’m behind. I [00:59:35] better hurry up. Is that is that part of your thinking?

Henry Totterdell: Not not [00:59:40] really. I think because I was there when I was a grad, I was probably like 2 or 3 years older than my manager [00:59:45] sometimes. And so I’ve always been quite comfortable with the fact that there’s people who are far younger than me who [00:59:50] will be way better than me, and they always will. They’ll always be there. You know, that prodigy or the genius who comes [00:59:55] along and.

Payman Langroudi: Just.

Henry Totterdell: Absolutely nails it first time round. Like sometimes I probably [01:00:00] one of the things I find hardest actually is like, I feel like I’ve paused everything and it’s a long pause. [01:00:05] And so now I see all my friends continue to excel and it’s so lovely, like watching them do well. But sometimes like, [01:00:10] oh, I wish I could have that. I’m progressing a little bit more because Dental still does feel quite slow, [01:00:15] but I.

Payman Langroudi: Wouldn’t.

Henry Totterdell: I wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Worry about it. I remember, you know, like with doctors, you get this all the time, right? [01:00:20] I remember having a few of my doctor friends so ambitious. I want to be [01:00:25] a, the youngest consultant in, in, in the, in his cohort. [01:00:30] And you think why man? Yeah. What if he became a consultant three years after the youngest [01:00:35] consultant? Yeah, yeah. What would be the problem with that? What would be the problem with that? You know, nothing [01:00:40] but putting himself in a massive pressure, you know, regarding that notion of what you don’t want to [01:00:45] waste a year. Yeah, yeah. Um, now with you. Okay. It’s been, you know, a good 14 [01:00:50] years.

Henry Totterdell: 14, 15.

Payman Langroudi: Years that you could have started dentistry before. But it’s, [01:00:55] it’s Destructive force. Yeah, I think to worry too [01:01:00] much about anything like that, you’ll be left behind or whatever else.

Henry Totterdell: I much prefer focusing on like, well, where [01:01:05] am I now? Yeah. And what am I doing to make sure that the steps ahead of me are delivered as best I can? [01:01:10] Definitely like, because like you say, you can spend forever looking backwards. But actually it’s, you’ve [01:01:15] got to focus on what.

Payman Langroudi: You’ve done an amazing thing. Yeah. The combination of your skills. I’ve [01:01:20] not come across before.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. It’s interesting one, there’s not many.

Payman Langroudi: Have you come across anyone who was an engineer who’s become a dentist? [01:01:25]

Henry Totterdell: I’ve bumped into people who’ve done engineering, then gone very quickly into dentistry. There’s a guy in our final [01:01:30] year who I think did an engineering degree first, but I don’t meet many people who then gone and done a sort [01:01:35] of 1010 year career stint before then packing it all in and coming back. So yeah, it’s quite unusual. [01:01:40] It’s quite fun.

Payman Langroudi: Where do you see dentistry going with your engineering brain on? [01:01:45]

Henry Totterdell: Oh God, where do I see it going? Um, I think it’d be really [01:01:50] interesting to see how we include more automation, particularly like mechanical automation will [01:01:55] that like, where will patients be comfortable with having machines doing things in their mouths? [01:02:00] Not not humans. And can we get machines to have like the sufficient tolerance [01:02:05] and control in order to do crown preps and things perfectly? Definitely that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, definitely. [01:02:10] The second part of your question.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. You know, and like, you know, you can have that tolerance on that prep. So I think it’d be [01:02:15] interesting to see where that goes. I mean, digital pathways are so ingrained now. [01:02:20] I just see that becoming quite ubiquitous. Uh, such.

Payman Langroudi: An interesting thing. So you’re saying that you [01:02:25] see in the next eight years. Yeah. Let’s say a machine that’s fully [01:02:30] capable of.

Henry Totterdell: Well, I don’t know how far away that is, but what are the fundamentals of it exist [01:02:35] for me.

Payman Langroudi: For me. Look, the brain, the GPT in eight years time would be amazing. Yeah. Then all we’re talking [01:02:40] is hands and eyes, right? I mean, come on, that’s it. Can’t they figure it out? Well, we’ve.

Henry Totterdell: Got the motor control. Like you can [01:02:45] mill a crown in a chair side. Yeah. All you need is one on the end of a six axis [01:02:50] robot arm that can just roll around in the mouth.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t see that as a problem. So that’s there. The hand and eyes and [01:02:55] all that. I don’t see what you said before. What will patients accept the empathy? I think that’s part [01:03:00] of it.

Henry Totterdell: That’s going to be the tougher step to take is, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Because because it’s scary [01:03:05] and all that. Um, but then at the same time, my, my cousin’s an eye surgeon, [01:03:10] you know, and, you know, whether or not it’s him sticking a needle in your eye [01:03:15] or this machine sticking a needle in your eye. I’m not sure, man. Yeah. I. [01:03:20]

Henry Totterdell: I think it’s maybe like one of the same challenges. We’re talking about Waymo earlier. Yeah. Like it’s [01:03:25] taking people a long time to accept they can get into a car without a driver. Yeah. Just because they feel like they’re out of control. [01:03:30] I think it’s probably a similar like if you’re asleep under general anaesthetic, people probably don’t [01:03:35] care.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Or they care, but not in the same way. But when it’s actually they’ve got a machine coming to like will it [01:03:40] stop. Won’t it stop. Like I don’t have enough trust yet of this. I think once we overcome that hurdle, [01:03:45] we’ll then probably quite quickly move into.

Payman Langroudi: I think what’s so interesting is how everything’s a bit rubbish, [01:03:50] Like everything can be improved.

Henry Totterdell: In what way?

Payman Langroudi: Everything is rubbish, isn’t it?

Henry Totterdell: I o [01:03:55] in the world or in the world, like. And certification or whatever it is where.

Payman Langroudi: Something’s wrong, I don’t [01:04:00] know. Uh, the phones kind of good. Yeah. Yeah. Um. What else is good? Like [01:04:05] nothing else is good.

Henry Totterdell: It sometimes feels that way. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: My point is, like [01:04:10] every service, every, every hotel and restaurant is could be a lot better. [01:04:15] Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: It’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Every product in dentistry, like almost every move [01:04:20] we make, you feel like it’s a bit rubbish. Yeah. Yeah. So someone with a brain like yours. [01:04:25] Yeah. Could really make some interesting changes.

Henry Totterdell: It would be quite exciting. [01:04:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And especially because you’ve been in pharmaceutical. Yeah. You understand that? You know what that sort of supply [01:04:35] chain kind of thing is. Um, and all the consulting, all the different things that you’ve seen in consulting, [01:04:40] um, if I were you, I’d cast my net a little bit further than. [01:04:45]

Henry Totterdell: Just.

Payman Langroudi: I’m going to be a single surgery practice owner. Yeah. By the way, [01:04:50] by the way, amazing thing being a single surgery owner. Amazing thing. Wonderful. One of the most [01:04:55] happy people I know, or types of people I know are people who have a single surgery [01:05:00] because the king of that castle. They do things exactly how they want to do it. Treat your patients [01:05:05] well, treat your team well, and you’re pretty much happy life. Happy life. You know, you can go on holiday, you can [01:05:10] send your kids to private school, whatever it is. Yeah. But it’s such a unique set of skills you’ve got [01:05:15] now.

Henry Totterdell: I’d love to learn more about what’s happening in that world, actually of dentistry. Like who are the movers [01:05:20] and shakers who are actually exploring? How do we get machines into.

Payman Langroudi: You know, about Zuckerberg’s [01:05:25] dad?

Henry Totterdell: I know nothing about Zuckerberg’s dad.

Payman Langroudi: He’s a dentist. Is he? Yeah, and he [01:05:30] was one of the earliest investors in Facebook. So now he’s a billionaire.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, right. He’s done well. [01:05:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And so now he invests. He’s got a fund that invests in Dental. Yeah. It’s interesting. Start-ups. [01:05:40]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I need to read more about this and go and explore it more because it’s a whole world of dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Imagine [01:05:45] having nano robots or whatever. You know, like there’s so much, there’s so much you could do.

Henry Totterdell: So [01:05:50] true. And we could bring the speakers to the school, start to build a network and actually, you know, start to explore what innovations [01:05:55] are out there because I think it will change. It could change quite quickly as we go.

Payman Langroudi: Nice to see you’ve got this constant smile on your [01:06:00] face.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How is it? Life hasn’t sort of taken that away from you.

Henry Totterdell: I don’t always [01:06:05] have it.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t always have it. I, I try and.

Henry Totterdell: I probably quite relentlessly optimistic. [01:06:10] I always try and think like things can be always better or things will be good and people mean [01:06:15] well. Um, yeah, I just think like, if you smile, like the world tends to smile back at you. And I think [01:06:20] it opens, it opens doors. I smile at people, say hello, and before you know it, you’re half [01:06:25] an hour into conversation. Uh, I guess it’s like how we met. I saw you at the show. I was like, oh, hey, I listened [01:06:30] to your podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: And you were like, cool, let’s walk that way and talk and here I am. Yeah. No, I just [01:06:35] try and be happy as much as I can and try and focus on the things that I can impact and [01:06:40] change. Yeah. And I’m quite good at.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know such a such an optimistic guy. They want to be negative, [01:06:45] but what’s the darkest day so far in this journey?

Henry Totterdell: Oh wow.

Payman Langroudi: Or [01:06:50] what are some of what comes to mind?

Henry Totterdell: I think, um, I think how universities changed [01:06:55] through Covid compared to when I first went, when I first went, we were lucky if there were any lecture slides [01:07:00] online, it was like, you got there. There was a plastic projector with the [01:07:05] oh yeah. Oh yeah, the OHP that’s it. Or a chalkboard. Yeah, yeah. Um, and that’s what [01:07:10] I envisaged learning to be like. Whereas now like it talked about like pre-recorded online lectures. [01:07:15] I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Is it no choice to even go in?

Henry Totterdell: No, no, not for a lot of them. We have lectures [01:07:20] in person, but there’s a whole series which are just like, no, that’s how they’re delivered. And.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:07:25] it was literally Covid that did that.

Henry Totterdell: I think that was the transition. I can’t really pinpoint it. Like before that the Dental [01:07:30] school used to be in all the time. And I think this is Dental schools across the country. And I don’t think it’s helped by things like funding. [01:07:35] And, um, I think students want a very different experience now. It’s much more transactional, [01:07:40] um, university, you’re paying a lot more and you’re just like, I’m here to get this. Therefore, [01:07:45] we will do it.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see, I see.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. And I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: The first time round you weren’t paying as much.

Henry Totterdell: Oh, three, three [01:07:50] grand a year.

Payman Langroudi: Oh is.

Henry Totterdell: That it? Yeah. It’s great.

Payman Langroudi: Like when I went, it was free.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Like even better.

Payman Langroudi: They even paid you. [01:07:55] They even paid you if you were. If you were. If you qualified.

Henry Totterdell: So good. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You know, that’s [01:08:00] probably a conversation or debate for another day of like, how we changed.

Payman Langroudi: Did you come out of the Loughborough with, [01:08:05] uh, debt?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I had about was it maybe 30 grand, 25, 30 grand.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [01:08:10]

Payman Langroudi: So you spent the first ten years paying that off? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: So it was, [01:08:15] that was fine, but it felt like, uh, a realistic amount to pay back off. Yeah. Whereas [01:08:20] now it feels like it’s not. But going back to yeah, darkest days, like just those, [01:08:25] like getting through all those lectures, I was like, what have I signed up for? I thought I’d be immersed in like [01:08:30] a lecture theatre right now. There are a couple of mornings I woke up and I was like, I’m in a I’m in a bad way right [01:08:35] now. I need to call my friends and like, go for a beer. Like, really? I’m on the cusp of like, throwing it all in. This [01:08:40] is what I thought I was signing up to up.

Payman Langroudi: To first year.

Henry Totterdell: Uh, first year. And then like that [01:08:45] first term of second year in that first term, there was like a six week period where we must have had about a hundred [01:08:50] lectures or 80 just shy. Um, and I was like, I’m just sat here watching a screen by [01:08:55] myself. And, you know, there’s always the, well, why don’t you go and do it with someone else? I’m like, well, they’re gonna be on a different [01:09:00] we can’t talk. I’ve got my headphones in. And so that was, I found that the toughest. And that’s [01:09:05] when I really started questioning, like, have I made the right decision here? And it was still the right. I still wasn’t [01:09:10] so far in. I could jump out and have a really interesting story to tell whoever I went to [01:09:15] try and get a job with afterwards. But that’s what I found hardest.

Payman Langroudi: And you were living out of [01:09:20] town? Not in halls.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So, so not really involved in the sort of the social [01:09:25] side.

Henry Totterdell: As, as a bath, living in bath at the time, commuting in. Um, I’m very fortunate. [01:09:30] I’ve got a really great group of friends in Bath and Bath and Bristol. They’ve all migrated out of London. [01:09:35] So I had like a really good social social scene around there. Okay. But I guess it made me [01:09:40] feel quite isolated from the course in that sense. And I wasn’t at uni to like it sounds bad, but [01:09:45] like to go and make a whole new like life and wealth of friends like I was when [01:09:50] I first went to uni where I was exploring and finding myself. Um, but.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:09:55] compounding effect of these online lectures and.

Henry Totterdell: But I did want to get involved. I did want to like get to know [01:10:00] everyone and like, as we’ve become more clinical, I get to do that more and more and more. And it’s so lovely. Like getting to know people, even [01:10:05] though we’re like completely different stages in our life. Many of us, like I found, yeah, just by, just [01:10:10] by owning the fact I’m older people are super inquisitive and it’s great, great to see them too, because they bring something [01:10:15] new to me, like new ways of learning, thinking, and yeah, people 15 years younger than [01:10:20] me. It’s great. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What pisses you off about dentistry?

Henry Totterdell: Oh, what pisses [01:10:25] me off about dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: So.

Henry Totterdell: Far? Oh, that’s that’s a good question. [01:10:30] One thing I find maybe doesn’t piss me off. I find a bit sad is how many people don’t like the dentist. [01:10:35] And it’s not like they don’t like you as a person. It’s not they don’t like you, sorry. It’s they just don’t like the dentist. [01:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: Nervous? Nervous?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Nervous. Bad experiences. It’s a very peculiar thing, having someone you [01:10:45] don’t know put their hands in your mouth. Like barely anyone puts their hands in someone else’s [01:10:50] mouth at the best of times. So I find that a bit sad. And I’d love to find a way to [01:10:55] to change that.

Payman Langroudi: And become that dentist, right?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I become that dentist that’s really good. With nervous patients.

Henry Totterdell: It [01:11:00] would be good. I think. I often like look at people overseas in the US and like so many people I’ve [01:11:05] spoken to, they’re like, oh, I love going for my cleaning or I love going to this. And I’m like, what’s being done differently there that [01:11:10] we can’t bring over here and make that experience here? Um, that annoys [01:11:15] me. What else? Nothing. Really.

Payman Langroudi: Become that dentist. Honestly, such an important skill. [01:11:20] Yeah. It is. My wife’s really good at it. Yeah. Painless injections. Yeah. Completely painless. You [01:11:25] have no idea. There’s been an injection until it starts becoming numb.

Henry Totterdell: She is one of the systems that designed for just [01:11:30] straight up.

Payman Langroudi: She puts a lot of a topical for a long time. Yeah. Like a good seven minutes [01:11:35] of topical. I mean, you can only do this privately.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Seven minutes of topical [01:11:40] on a dry mucosa and then very gently goes and then [01:11:45] and amount of time she spends on the plunger. It’s like a long, long, long. You [01:11:50] just don’t feel it. You just don’t feel it at all. That’s good. But but just that one skill, I mean, I guess [01:11:55] she’s gentle or whatever with gentle touch after that. But that one skill she’s has patience [01:12:00] following her around practice to practice to practice.

Henry Totterdell: Makes such a difference.

Payman Langroudi: Bringing families along with them. And [01:12:05] I guess there’s that other sort of empathy side as well of, of, of, you know, when, [01:12:10] when the guy says, I’m scared, reassuring and saying, don’t worry, we do things differently. [01:12:15] It’s a massive practice builder, a massive practice builder.

Henry Totterdell: Just build that set [01:12:20] of repeatable customers.

Payman Langroudi: I had a boss like that too. Um, my God, this [01:12:25] practice was, it was by a long way the most expensive practice in the town. I mean, he was, he was very good. [01:12:30] He was very charming. He was like head of the whatever railroad rotary thing. [01:12:35] Um, and he was cool and funny and all that, but when as he [01:12:40] practised, he always told me, any time you touch the patient, make it one third the amount [01:12:45] of force that you think you should use.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. So easy. Just bang. Yeah. Just [01:12:50] pull your lip here. Yeah, yeah. Your stretches. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I’d come out of I’d done a restorative house job where the, [01:12:55] the consultant was saying actually sometimes you have to push hard [01:13:00] to get things right. And it’s true. Right. There are times where you need to push and.

Henry Totterdell: Push a lot [01:13:05] harder than you think you can as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Balance. But I’d come out of that job thinking that’s the technician [01:13:10] I am. I do what it takes. And this guy taught me that what he said. And then I saw [01:13:15] my wife as well and I realised, no, no, no, no, no. Gentle, gentle is like an MSc. [01:13:20] Yeah. It should be.

Henry Totterdell: It should be on that.

Payman Langroudi: It should be on your.

Henry Totterdell: In your. Yeah, [01:13:25] yeah, yeah. I find it interesting. She loves having all their initials after their [01:13:30] name. Yeah, I’ve never really seen that, I guess before, but that’s a very.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s [01:13:35] like a marketing thing.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. I think it would give me more confidence as a patient.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think of what do you [01:13:40] think of the things that some people are unhappy about, things like awards ceremonies and dentistry [01:13:45] and these sort of things. How do you feel about that?

Henry Totterdell: I’ve never been to one, but [01:13:50] like from the out, like looking, looking in from the outside, I guess I quite like the idea. I [01:13:55] think it’s nice to celebrate each other. Nice to sort of stop for a moment, be like, oh, I’m [01:14:00] proud of where I’ve come and I’m proud of where I’m going. I want to show other people and [01:14:05] tell other people about that. I think it helps us like celebrate each other and celebrate the industry. It’s good. I think if it creates [01:14:10] unhealthy, sort of like competitive strategies, it can be a bit poor. There’s that. But, [01:14:15] you know, I think in general I like the idea of it in principle, I think yeah, I think it’s always good to celebrate success. [01:14:20] And you know, if anything it gives us an excuse to get together again. Yeah. And also [01:14:25] like something to help give patients that reassurance.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But then, you know, when someone gets voted best [01:14:30] dentist in Bristol by that process. Yeah. But the actual best dentist in Bristol [01:14:35] hasn’t even.

Henry Totterdell: There is.

Payman Langroudi: Even even entered.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. There is always that risk [01:14:40] with um sort of self nominated. Yeah. Events isn’t there. Do you have to pay to like [01:14:45] become what it’s like the best graduates. You have to pay to be on that.

Payman Langroudi: You pay for the, the awards night. [01:14:50]

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: But not I don’t think it affects the result.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Okay. So it’s not like you can only [01:14:55] enter if you are going to turn up on the night.

Payman Langroudi: No, we I get I get companies all the time say, do you [01:15:00] want to buy one of these plaques that says you’re the best teeth whitening company in Britain?

Henry Totterdell: I think you’ve gotta be very [01:15:05] careful with this. Like, yeah, I’ve just bought this title. And it’s like, [01:15:10] well, hang on. I think where there’s like real, genuine, um, genuine [01:15:15] nomination and reward or like, uh, consideration of the applicant [01:15:20] and then the outcome is good.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I think it’s genuine and I think it improves the practice a lot. [01:15:25] Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: But it gives you a reason to improve as well. I think we all like it when other people. [01:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: Don’t like.

Henry Totterdell: It.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, a lot of them don’t like it. I guess the more old school ones.

Henry Totterdell: What are the reasons for that?

Payman Langroudi: Like [01:15:35] I say, the fact that you get nominated, you get called the best dentist.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, um, [01:15:40] you might not be. Yeah. That that gets their goat. Yeah. Um, what about [01:15:45] this? The thing that the top 50.

Henry Totterdell: Top 50. Yeah. Yeah. I remember a lot of people don’t like that. We used [01:15:50] to be on the top 50 list of like fastest growing. I think we sponsored the list. It’s like, well, of course we’re on it. [01:15:55] So little things like that. Yeah. Again, it’s getting the balance right. Like [01:16:00] who nominates I think is probably I think it’s really nice when you have ones where somebody else [01:16:05] has to nominate you. Um, and almost like without you knowing, I think that’s when you get to like the most special, [01:16:10] special reward because then it really feels like you’ve earned it because your peers recognise you as being good. [01:16:15]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, of.

Henry Totterdell: Course. And I think that’d be like the ultimate reward ceremony, I think for me.

Payman Langroudi: So you look [01:16:20] back on this journey.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s quite, quite a sort of, a journey [01:16:25] of discovery, right? Self-discovery. We [01:16:30] said often you don’t know what being an engineer is going to be like. And all of that. Do [01:16:35] you reflect back on like the your upbringing that, you know, what made [01:16:40] you so confident or confident enough to say, I’m going to do this, then I’m going to stop this [01:16:45] and I’m going to try that. Then I’m going to jump into dentistry. Yeah, it’s a confident guy that does that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:16:50] it’s quite interesting. Um, what about growing up?

Payman Langroudi: Were you always very confident? [01:16:55] Like was there an inflection point?

Henry Totterdell: Wasn’t always super confident like socially and particularly I think. Oh really? Yeah. I [01:17:00] was always like played sport and things. I think if you play sport at school you sort of team sports. Yeah. You sort of get [01:17:05] friends and yeah, it probably saves you. That’s probably a bit of a nerd through school. Um, but [01:17:10] I think, I think probably just support from my parents. Like it was never, oh, well, you’ve made that decision. You [01:17:15] must always stick with it. There was always the. Well, you can change it. Yeah. You can change. You [01:17:20] tried it like that’s, that’s the right thing to do. Like, you know, if you hadn’t [01:17:25] tried it, you’d never known. So you’ve tried it.

Payman Langroudi: So you went to your parents with these decisions and they were supportive.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:17:30] I definitely spoke to my parents about it. Yeah, it’s quite interesting. My mum jumped through a lot of careers when she was growing up. So [01:17:35] I feel like maybe I’ve sort of like just got that like it’s normal, normal to do. Um, so [01:17:40] I felt I was very supportive from that point of view and was always encouraged to be like, just follow what I was interested in. [01:17:45] And there’s always a much bigger focus on, um, do what makes you happy than. [01:17:50] And that’s sort of the biggest or best outcome you can have for life than trying [01:17:55] to focus on something funny.

Payman Langroudi: I think about my Middle Eastern parents when I told them, I want to stop being a dentist and start manufacturing [01:18:00] teeth whitening products that are illegal. At the time, they were illegal. It [01:18:05] was totally different. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: I think, I think depending on what they yeah, [01:18:10] what I was doing, they might, they might draw a line somewhere. But I think if I, yeah, showed that I thought about it and had that and [01:18:15] they challenged me on it. Then it was. Yeah, they’re very supportive. Amazing. I think I [01:18:20] thought I was a bit bonkers. But it’s your journey. You do you, do you like we’ll support you and what you decide, [01:18:25] which I’m very, very lucky to have because I realise a lot of people won’t get that. That’s right. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s right. It’s [01:18:30] been a massive pleasure having you, man.

Henry Totterdell: Thank you so much. It’s been a real honour.

Payman Langroudi: With the questions that we have.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, [01:18:35] sure.

Payman Langroudi: For everyone. Um, fantasy dinner party.

Henry Totterdell: Fantasy dinner party.

Payman Langroudi: Three [01:18:40] guests.

Henry Totterdell: I was thinking about this. This is a tricky one. Um, I think maybe a classic. [01:18:45] To start off. I’d have someone like Barack Obama. I just think, like, he’s [01:18:50] got a brilliant way. I think of summarising what like a good society [01:18:55] looks like and like bringing people together and always seeing like good and stuff. And he must have some amazing [01:19:00] stories and he always seems really well thought through and really well meaning in what he thinks [01:19:05] through. And I think that’s always a nice way to be. Um, and [01:19:10] then I think to help make those stories a bit funnier and like, I think, I think Brett would [01:19:15] tell them in a really good way, but I think someone like Bob Mortimer, I think he’s one of the funniest comedian. Yeah, the [01:19:20] most naturally funny people that’s ever existed. And like, he does it like he’s [01:19:25] not trying. It just seems like effortless. So I think he like, help turn [01:19:30] those brilliant, interesting stories into like, quite an exceptionally funny event. [01:19:35] Um, and then the final one is maybe a bit of a curveball. I hadn’t really [01:19:40] thought about it before. Um, starting to think about coming here. Um, I think we [01:19:45] all wonder how the pyramids were built. Yeah. And so I bring back. Is it Khufu.

Payman Langroudi: The [01:19:50] architect or whatever?

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. The Pharaoh at the time whose tomb is in it and just [01:19:55] learned like, not just what society was like, but like, how did we get to having this 150 million, [01:20:00] 150 metre pyramids?

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very good point.

Henry Totterdell: And, and just I [01:20:05] think I’d answer so many questions for so many people.

Payman Langroudi: I was on different podcast. The guy said, where would you like to have [01:20:10] been flying a wall? Yeah. And I was, you know, classical Iranian, [01:20:15] uh, conspiracy theorist when they decided who was going to kill JFK. Right? But then [01:20:20] but then when I really thought about it was, you know, those events, those global sort of Ice age type [01:20:25] events, like when things start exploding. Yeah, yeah. With the dinosaurs as they’re getting extinct. [01:20:30] Just imagine, like watching that. Yeah.

Henry Totterdell: You could you imagine just being like, I want to be on the moon when [01:20:35] that happens and just watch from afar.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Fly on the moon at that.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. [01:20:40] You know, you’re watching. You’d be like, wow, is this really happening?

Payman Langroudi: Final question. Yeah. Three [01:20:45] pieces of advice for your loved ones on your deathbed.

Henry Totterdell: Pieces of advice. Um, I [01:20:50] would say like smile and say hello to people. I think [01:20:55] just.

Payman Langroudi: Good at that.

Henry Totterdell: Man. Just building connections with people. Like you never know where it’s going to get you. Yeah. For sure. I was [01:21:00] on the train, not today, but two weeks ago coming to London. The guy sat next to me and he was like, oh, you’re working on a Saturday? [01:21:05] I was just typing away. I was like, oh yeah, and I could have just ended it there, but I just got chatting to him. Turns out he’s [01:21:10] the bursar at one of the Oxford colleges, and before we knew it, we had a long conversation, left his contact [01:21:15] details and was like, you know, when when you’re looking Start-Up in practice, just get in touch. And, you know, I [01:21:20] might be interested in investing. So I was like, great, okay. Um, what would be another way?

Payman Langroudi: It’s rare [01:21:25] to have both of those sides locked down, you know, the maths brain and social [01:21:30] brain together. I don’t know.

Henry Totterdell: There’s a stereotype.

Payman Langroudi: Right? Stereotype. Yeah. That’s probably [01:21:35] a.

Henry Totterdell: Third of my engineering degree. You could really see like sort of like mainly [01:21:40] mainly guys as well. Like I think 140 guys, ten girls on the course. And [01:21:45] a lot of us had probably spent a lot too much, too much time gaming and things.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah, yeah. And then suddenly you [01:21:50] get the world. I think that’s the joy of uni. You suddenly meet people who are like you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:21:55]

Henry Totterdell: You never had the chance to meet at school. That’s true. Second piece of advice. Um, [01:22:00] like stay curious. I think just always be interested about the world around you and then [01:22:05] like, just don’t stop, like trying to figure out what’s going on and going on and, and figure it out. Um, [01:22:10] just because it, I think you just get enjoyment from understanding things more and more and more.

Payman Langroudi: I think [01:22:15] also as a as a I mean, you tell me, but I think as a as a counter point [01:22:20] to that to realise you can affect things. If things don’t [01:22:25] aren’t just the way they are, you could, you can change something.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. 100%.

Payman Langroudi: It’s such an important point. Yeah. Because [01:22:30] people are really good at analysing stuff. Yeah. But think that’s it. I can’t I can’t do anything about [01:22:35] any of this. It’s so, so true.

Henry Totterdell: Like and you know, you just have to accept like what, [01:22:40] what do you care about something being done about and what don’t you care? And as long as you know, like which side and [01:22:45] if you care enough about it, go and go and do something. Yeah. And then I think the final piece is, [01:22:50] uh, just say yes to things like to opportunities. Like, especially [01:22:55] when you’re young, like if you’re young and you spend a couple of hours doing something, realise you hate [01:23:00] it. So what, like you’ve learned so much from that opportunity. Um, like coming [01:23:05] along today, like, you know, just by saying hi, like I’ve ended up here talking to you and [01:23:10] who knows where that might lead, you know? Yeah. But like, just say yes to things that like help you explore and [01:23:15] help you do new things, even if it puts you outside your comfort zone. Because soon enough, you won’t feel outside your comfort [01:23:20] zone. You will feel like, oh, cool, I’m doing something. I don’t know what it is, but that’s fine. I’ve done it before. [01:23:25]

Payman Langroudi: Although the opposite advice a lot of people give as well. Yeah, just say no to things.

Henry Totterdell: That are.

Payman Langroudi: Really important. [01:23:30]

Henry Totterdell: As soon as you know that you definitely won’t like something or it’s not for you, like, yeah, be really [01:23:35] clear why, you.

Payman Langroudi: Know, but like, if you’re a busy guy, if you’re a busy guy and you say yes to everything.

Henry Totterdell: You end up.

Payman Langroudi: With a problem, you end [01:23:40] up with a problem. Yeah. And so like, I don’t know, you hear this a lot with like executives are like, no, no [01:23:45] to say no quickly. Yeah. So it doesn’t take up any further of your time.

Henry Totterdell: It comes with a caveat of like, [01:23:50] no, when you like have the scope to say yes to stuff and.

Payman Langroudi: Like, but you’re absolutely [01:23:55] right at the.

Henry Totterdell: Beginning saying yes to you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely right at the beginning. Absolutely. You know, you have no [01:24:00] idea where each of these interactions could end up.

Henry Totterdell: Exactly. That. You know, a friend says, let’s go and see this. [01:24:05] Go and see it. Like, yeah, yeah, as long as you you’ll have fun. And then you soon learn what you like and don’t. [01:24:10] And then, like you say, don’t overwhelm yourself.

Payman Langroudi: A super, super enjoyable. I’m so happy I asked [01:24:15] you to come on.

Henry Totterdell: Yeah. Thank you so much. It’s been such a treat to come down to London and. Yeah. See you and be on it. Really? [01:24:20] Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks. Thanks for doing that, man. I really enjoyed.

Henry Totterdell: That. Thank you.

[VOICE]: This [01:24:25] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [01:24:30] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:24:35] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [01:24:40] for listening guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [01:24:45] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [01:24:50] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [01:24:55]

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