[00:00:00] But contentment so undervalued, I mean, at the end of the day, it’s all about being happy, right?

[00:00:04] Yeah, if you find contentment, drive success, like if you can find what makes you happy, then you’ll end up doing that and end up being successful. Like, look at Mini-SAR makeover. I just love coming back to that course because I just love being with you guys and it’s a fun weekend away and and I’m not doing it for like any personal gain or that kind of, like you say, the city of London. You know, let’s go here and let’s further our career and what’s in it for me. I just do it because I love it. But it has then naturally led onto me meeting some amazing dentists. Me learning loads more because I’m seeing the lectures again. Me. And you know, when you teach something, you learn it even better. So the benefits come without ever doing it because there’s benefits.

[00:00:49] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:06] It’s my great pleasure to welcome Dr. Matt Parsons onto the podcast. Matty’s one of my good friends who I first met on Milly Smile make over the composite course that we do. Since then, he’s gone on to become one of the top composite guys in the countries. Fair to say with a brilliant social media profile and actually teaches on the course Know started out, you know, demonstrating and now teaches on the course on marketing. Lovely to have you met. I met you. Ok? Yeah, it’s been a long time coming this one. I’m really happy we managed to do it. I wanted you on with Depeche Mode as well. Anyway, I’m really happy you’re here for anyone listening. This is 1st of January twenty twenty two, which sounds weird, but with the way the virus did. Did you go out last night and have a good time?

[00:01:54] No, no, we were. We were off with a crying baby last night.

[00:01:58] Oh yeah, we went out. But it was it was very quiet. We actually ended up coming home at 11:30.

[00:02:09] I hope you’re straight to bed.

[00:02:11] No, no, no, we did. We stood up, stood around for the, you know, the Sydney. Whatever fireworks? Yeah, a bit different than, oh yeah, Matty. We usually start with the back story charted. What made you become a dentist?

[00:02:27] What if you find out this crazy bombshell for me now? Like, Well, I was born in Uganda,

[00:02:35] Just like

[00:02:36] A boxer that you never knew

[00:02:39] Your mother was a spy? Yeah, yeah. Have you been in the in the

[00:02:44] Forces my whole life? So yeah, I grew up on the world, just outside Liverpool. Normal upbringing, kind of 2.4 kids. Two younger brothers decided I wanted to be a dentist when I was in primary school, about eleven. Really? Yeah, I thought it was. I well, I wanted to be a vet when I was really young. I wrote a letter to Greenpeace wants to save the whales. So I was like some little weird hippie animal lover. And then my friend Benji said to me one day, Oh, I’m going to be a dentist when I’m older. We’re like 11 years old. And I said, Oh, right, OK, cool. So do I. And it genuinely stuck. And that was like the day that I decided, Well, there’s Benji do. He’s an engineer?

[00:03:29] He didn’t. He didn’t make it. But yeah,

[00:03:31] Did you know? So you kind of you do that thing. Don’t you think about all the different options and thought about medicine? Thought of that, thought about all the things, but always kept going back to dentistry work experience. Liked it.

[00:03:43] Enjoyed it. Did you think about leaving Liverpool or were you always going to stay in Liverpool? No.

[00:03:49] My first choice of you and you would have been Manchester if I’d have got an offer. Oh, so my group of friends kind of went to two different unis Manchester and Liverpool John Moores. So going to Liverpool Uni meant that I wasn’t at the same uni as my friends. Or if I’ve gone to Manchester, I would have been, so I would have gone to Manchester, but I didn’t get an offer. So Liverpool was kind of second choice but worked out great. You know, it’s a bit of a sliding doors moment where I look back and think it’s definitely a good thing that happened because I ended up with making really good mates and, you know, absolutely loved my time there and I wouldn’t change it for the world. But the plan was to go to Manchester. My other offer was Newcastle, which I felt was a bit too far away, which is weird because it’s literally a couple of hours and now that feels like nothing at all. But when you’re 18, you know, the drive to Newcastle feels like a different world away compared to the drive to Manchester.

[00:04:38] Did you not consider London or anything

[00:04:40] Wasn’t even on the radar? I don’t know why it wasn’t. It wasn’t a conscious thing. I didn’t even consciously discount it. It just never came into the into the frame. My other, I think Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle, Liverpool, my four choices. I got offers from Newcastle and Liverpool.

[00:04:58] What kind of a kid were you, dude? I’ve got you down as the class clown. Is that not?

[00:05:02] Yeah, no. Nail on the head. Didn’t really know when to take things seriously. Was never, ever nasty. You know it was never horrible. Or I was kind of like forever getting in stupid little bits of trouble like it was never be. It never a big deal or anything. But it was like, you know, mum, my dad used to. Roll their eyes on parents evening when they hear the story and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I think I kind of probably pulled my finger out when I went into sixth form. I don’t know what happened, you know, the the switch just seemed to flick. I started working hard and got the grades I needed in the end.

[00:05:46] And then in Dental school, you were president of the thing, right? The student body. Is that in the final year, that happens for you?

[00:05:55] That was good. That was that was a great year because a few of my good friends were on the committee as well. So we were like organising the event and the nights out and the parties. And that was really fun, really, really fun. Dental school was amazing. Then Dental School was like five of the best years of my life,

[00:06:11] So uni tends to be fun for a lot of people. But did you take the dentistry as in? Were you one of the top guys in the class

[00:06:18] And were nowhere near? Not even close. I would say that I did, and I did enough to pass the exams. You know, it was I didn’t really get passionate about anything and I didn’t really do any extracurriculars within dentistry. I didn’t fail anything. Well, no, I did. I failed cross infection control once because I halfway through maybe taking a tooth out. I leant over to the bin, pulled my mask down spot, spot my chin into the bin and pull my spackle. I choose to like talking to one side and was like, You really

[00:06:52] Can’t do that.

[00:06:54] So I got I’m like, I can’t remove what they call it now, like a probation from my cross infection control warning. Yeah, but no.

[00:07:03] And did you live at home with the whole at all or did you live out the whole time?

[00:07:08] Yeah. I went to halls, went to the first year and lived in like student houses the whole way through, didn’t live with dentists the first three years, which was, I think, good for me.

[00:07:15] Yeah, that’s always a good idea, isn’t it? Did you then work in the NHS at all?

[00:07:22] Yeah, yeah. So did Viti in North Wales. So there was. We did. We were the second year to do national recruitment for VTi. So there was like this big kind of procedure in terms of the application process and our group of friends. It was kind of six of us. Three of us took us, took it really seriously. And for all the work in, did all the research or the read and everything else. And three of us, which I was in kind of said, No, do you know what? We’ll smile and we’ll charm them, and we’re good and we can chat and we’ll be fine. And the three that really put the work in got like these great positions in the great schemes and me. The other one was Jack, who, you know, Rishi, you’ve met as well. Yeah, me and Jack both got North Wales, which is like way down on the list of places that are popular in the Rankin scheme. And Rishi didn’t even get a place. He did eventually, but the three of us just absolutely bombed it. What turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me, really in some ways, because I ended up working with Adrian Thorpe and Ravi Buju on agent specialist oral surgeon Ravi Dental special interest in Ortho loved a bit of endo as well. And with North Wales, you can’t bloody refer, you know, you don’t have a teaching hospital. And the patients generally won’t go private for four and oh, four surgical for this, for that. So it’s just in at the deep end and your options are either give it a go or it doesn’t get done. And when you’ve got mentors a lot and you kind of having to try things, you end up just jumping in at the deep end. And I’ve got such good experience from that. That was obviously VTi year in the NHS and then stayed on there for six months afterwards as a kind of 90 percent NHS associate after that.

[00:09:06] And then he left

[00:09:08] And I left, then I went to Australia. And so we flew we flew New Year’s Eve near enough where I think like twenty eight December or something, we flew to Sydney. We spent three or four months travelling up the East Coast. We flew over to Perth, where I stayed there for half the year, got a job in Perth. It’s really easy to get a job in Perth. Kind of an idea. So my dentist equivalent over there didn’t get on well with Perth. It was just a bit isolated, a bit quiet, not quite right for us. So then we went to Melbourne, we decided to go to Melbourne and we made the decision. We were applying for jobs. But Meg, sorry mate, got offered a job ex-officio and I applied for loads of jobs, didn’t get any and we were sat talking and I was like, Well, we can’t really go if I haven’t got a job and they will say, But let’s just go and just see what happens. And I was like, OK, cool, we’ll go. So we booked our flights. Kind of signed for an apartment over there. And then I think it was like a day before we went. I got a phone call back from someone like, Oh, you would be interested in interviewing you. So this phone interview and got the job and it was like it all worked out in the end kind of thing. So I flew off to Melbourne, worked there for probably eight months in private practise, just general check-ups, fill ins, all that kind of stuff. And that was that was not because that was like thrown in to this very expensive private dentistry where Mr. Jones walks in and you say, Oh, you need root canal on the ground, it’s going to cost you three thousand and they go, OK, they don’t even flinch. It’s completely normal. And that was bizarre when I kind of had two patients declining to have the crown on a route filled tooth because of the three charge in the UK to walk into that was really strange.

[00:10:49] They prioritise. They prioritise healthcare. I mean, dentistry as health care there and everyone sort of saves up for it, right? Yeah.

[00:10:55] Like a lot people, people take out good insurance policies and like jobs that come with good dental insurance are really desirable and it’s a completely different culture. And it’s also a little bit more like they take ownership for it. It’s like, hands up my fault, I need a root canal. Oh, well, it’s going to cost me a lot. I knew that.

[00:11:17] Yeah. And you didn’t have like trepidation first day of treating patients over there, the whole different mindset. Yeah, something jumped in to shit myself.

[00:11:26] Oh, you do. Oh, it was awful. I walked in day one and I was like, I don’t know what it was, but I asked the nurse for counsel and she was like, What’s that?

[00:11:34] I was like, like the patients in the

[00:11:36] Chair had black mouth open, numb cavity open, and I’m like,

[00:11:42] I don’t know something similar.

[00:11:45] And they did. They had an Australian equivalent in the end that we used.

[00:11:48] But yeah, that cliché that people say about being life being laid back over there and all is that. Is that real?

[00:11:56] I don’t think it’s laid back. I think they’re actually quite intense. But what they do, what they’re good at is work life balance. So they I think in this country, I think probably London, especially there’s a work life balance, has a tendency to slip too much towards work and not not enough towards life in Australia. You finish work at a decent time and then you have a life outside work. You don’t just go home, have you dinner? Go to bed to get up early the next day. To go to work, you’ll go to the beach, you’ll go to a bar, you know, over weekends you’ll get off and you’ll exercise and then you go for a. For breakfast, they just they don’t seem to work too hard is what I’m trying to say when they’re in work, but they’re intense people, kind of. They’re competitive and they are the fairly they’re not liberal politically on the whole and stuff. I wouldn’t say the laid back, but Work-Life Balance is really good. They almost like they aggressively chase their work-life balance. So that makes sense. Oh yeah.

[00:12:55] Oh, interesting. And was there any thought of staying on there?

[00:12:58] We had the conversation, but it’s just too far away, which is a ridiculous thing to say. You know, did you not realise that? But it feels a long way away when you’re there. The time difference is big. There are a couple little things that happened while I was away, like sick, like lost an A. and lost the family patents, stuff like that. And you felt completely out of it and just nowhere near what was going on. And also, you know, were quite family and friends orientated. So we’ve got look great families here, lovely group of friends, both of us. And it was kind of you’re making the decision, OK? The sunshine and the work life balance is brilliant. But if someone said to you, OK, would you like great weather or to spend time with your friends and family? That’s kind of what it ultimately boils down to for us. And, you know, no, no judgement for people who do move over there to stay because they might think, Well, we’re going to set up a great life for our kids and all this kind of stuff. And there’s obviously a hundred arguments either way. But for us, it came down to Do we want sunshine or do we want friends or family?

[00:14:02] So you got then I guess, the taste for private dentistry. Did you then come back and decide that say, I’m only going to do private

[00:14:10] Now, straight back, straight back to Wales, straight back to NHS? Did you? Yeah, I I had no desire to become a private dentist, to be a cosmetic dentist ever, right? No, I didn’t. Similar to what I said before, how I didn’t actively think against London. I never actively decided to not do it. But it just, you know, I hadn’t really given it much thought. We am the best thing about Australia was that it gave me the time to get a little bit better. So like straight into the NHS at home more and you’ve got 50 minutes. Forty five minutes booked, whatever it is, busy practise, you never have the time to, you never have enough time to get quick. If that makes sense is a bit of an oxymoron because you’re always you’re never comfortable doing it. And as soon as I went into that private system where I had loads of time and I was like slowly, slowly finding canals working my way down, then I then found that I could call my own and do a far better root canal in less time because I’d developed the skills first, and then the speed came afterwards. So that makes sense. I feel like the NHS makes you get quick before it makes you get good, whereas we should be trying to do the other.

[00:15:22] Really. Thank you. It’s very. Well, anyway, the know. So yeah, it came back to NHS. I four days a week in Wales, one day a week at practise, practise, practise at the time in Liverpool, which is a predominantly private practise. It’s got a big NHS list there and I was I was more doing more NHS than I was private there. So the story about I suppose that the first step was that my nurse said to me one morning, if you seen these composite veneers and I said, No, what are they? And she said, Show me, I don’t know who someone’s Instagram for before and after, like 10 combativeness or whatever it was. And I said, Oh, so what? Just buckle composite. This is like, Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, you want me to do it for you? She’s like, Come here? And I said, Yeah, I’ll do my lunchtime show. Ok, cool. So literally, we finished with a patient at half 12. She jumped in the chair an hour an hour. I thought it would take me through 10 teeth and the teeth were like crowded and twisted.

[00:16:21] Like it was. It was not. It was like a really hard case by half on and we’d been through shades and all that kinda stuff. She wanted the White House. She could buy half on. I had done her centrals and that was it, and I was like, Oh God, I’ve got a full afternoon of patients waiting for me now and we have to carry on. So she got up the chair. We did a full full afternoon of patients like every time I looked at issues just like these two bright white Bugs Bunny Centrals and like nothing else on the patients, must’ve been looking at us thinking, what the hell is wrong with her teeth? And then we say, I think I can’t believe we did it in gaps between patients or stayed late or something, but we managed to physically get the comms on the teeth and they looked rubbish. And I was like, Right, I need to learn how to do this. So I messaged my mate from uni saying, I’m thinking of doing a composite course, and I was like, OK, so me and Jack booked on came along. And yeah, the rest is history just went from there. It’s a

[00:17:23] Funny idea because that day, I remember that day, I remember you that day I do,

[00:17:29] Because you say that to everyone.

[00:17:31] No, no, no, no, no, no. Seriously, you clicked on that first day, but I remember that day for it being the most difficult hands on that we’d ever done. And even to today, the most difficult hands on we were the I think chicks was helping us, you know, chicks?

[00:17:47] No, it wasn’t. You’ve said this to me before it was that Dan Chong was there. I promise you, because I know chicks from uni chicks of chicks as a friend, and I promise you

[00:17:55] Would know if he was there. It was. It was done, definitely done. And we, our dad, was in the theatre. I was at the theatre.

[00:18:02] There was too. There was two in the theatre. One of them was the worst one ever. I’ve kind of I kind of put it out of my memory and nothing to do with the cause. But the facilities there was, there was there was a play going on when we got there and no staff at all like no one.

[00:18:19] So I don’t think that was my I think I think I must have been

[00:18:22] The second one. Yes, it went without a hitch, I’m sure. All right. So, so so

[00:18:29] You did the costume. And now I’m quite interested in this year because, you know, I actually mentioned this on the course. Sometimes as they look, some some people come on this course and go ahead and become, you know, super prolific composite guys. And then lots don’t lots, lots go on and don’t even start. I’m quite interested in, you know, what did you do? What was your first case? Did you come? Are you one of those cats that you know, comes comes to a course with the full intention of I’m going to start this properly and with a plan of how you’re going to go ahead. Is that you? Or, you know, what is it? What was it that you did that made you propel you into doing a lot of this work? I know it’s a long, you know, it’s a journey and so on, but give me those early things that you did from the course.

[00:19:11] Well, the first thing was to redo my nurses see what was a good start. Second thing, while I was on and I hadn’t even really thought about it, I had a patient, Nina, who she was. Basically, we were trying to whiten the teeth, but they were so sensitive and couldn’t do it and couldn’t get to shade that she wanted. And this that and the other. And she was in for like a review or something not long after it on the course. And I kind of said it wasn’t a first sorry tell a lie. One of my nurses friends, after I didn’t read it, my nurse’s teeth, one of her friends said, Oh, can I have that done? We’re like, Yeah, cool, we’ll do it. And then another one where kind of an existing patient of mine, we tried writing, couldn’t do it, couldn’t do it and there, but didn’t want traditional veneers because very scary and all that kind of stuff. So we did composites on her, and that was like the first one where I actually took a before and after really and posted it and I just posted it on my I wanted to do no. Dossey Dental posted it on their Instagram and I just shared it onto mine. And I think I did that like two or three times. And my brother said to me, You should set up a proper page for this. By the way, don’t just keep putting them on your your own page where you meet your mates are on you. And Meg at the same time was kind of saying the same thing. So I thought, OK, cool. So I set up a page and it just it grew and it started kind of very much because. People, I’m sure, will get on so-called social media, Instagram, but you tend to attract what you put out there. So because I’ve done a couple of sets of composite veneers, then people came in wanting combativeness and it became a little bit the composite veneer guy, which I didn’t want to

[00:20:44] Be literally telling me that your first two cases brought in more cases. That will happen.

[00:20:48] Yeah. Whoa. Well, to put into all you like, I don’t want that to sound like a dick thing to say. Because of those first three cases that I spoke about, two of them now have ceramic veneers. So I wasn’t exactly set in the world like.

[00:21:03] But you know, one thing is, look, we have we have to remember composite in the U.S., you know, our parent is in the U.S. The. Yeah. And they they teach composite. They’ve been teaching composite veneers for 30 years. But in the U.S., it’s kind of thought of as a transitional treatment, not not as definitive. Over here, we’ve kind of gone into, well, this is it. And it’s a bit worrying because, you know, we know it’s not going to last forever, but I wouldn’t I wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t think because those two are impossible. Maybe they weren’t great. Maybe wasn’t great. But OK, so you mentioned the social media, but you went and found your first case like that. Just like that straight off the course I’m going to do, I’m going to do something.

[00:21:45] Yeah. Well, it fell into my lap. I did the course because I copped up my nurses, so I had to redo hers. And then her friend said, they look amazing. Can I get mine done? You know? I mean, yeah. So that’s my top tip for anyone is to do a really crappy set of composites before you come

[00:22:01] On the course,

[00:22:02] And that will be your springboard when you’ve got to redo them.

[00:22:05] But you got you got to understand what I’m saying here, right? Because you’ve sent enough people to the course yourself, friends of yours. Yeah, they have all become big time composite guys. So what? What is it about one guy who does and one the guy does? I mean, we shouldn’t. We shouldn’t forget. You live in Liverpool,

[00:22:20] The world’s capital.

[00:22:21] Yeah, the world’s capital of cosmetic dentistry,

[00:22:24] Cosmetic dentistry, teeth whitening. Our biggest users always come from there. But you know, you know, I’m still interested in the mindset because you’re quite young. How old are

[00:22:33] You? Thirty one.

[00:22:36] Oh yeah. Not that you would have been better if you hadn’t said quite quite. You’re quite young.

[00:22:40] Yeah. And and you’d suddenly change from an NHS guy. Basically, you’re saying to a composite of an air guy out of the blue.

[00:22:49] Yeah, interesting. It happened slowly. It picked up, you know, it was a couple of years, I think. I think I set up my Instagram account maybe two and a half years ago, and I stopped the NHS probably 12 months ago

[00:23:03] As an estimate. Well, let’s listen to that.

[00:23:05] Maybe that’s what you’re saying. Maybe saying the sheer weight of patients coming to you from Instagram ended up meaning you had to do the work and you learnt on the job. On Tell Me about the Instagram thing because I watched your account go from 15000 to seventy thousand within the weekend or

[00:23:22] Something crazy,

[00:23:25] Crazy growth on that account. And anyone who hasn’t been there needs to have a quick look. Dr Matt Parsons. The amazing thing about the wonderful thing about is your face isn’t on it at all. Not a single picture of you on it. And so, you know, people like me who are camera shy people like me would always think, Well, it’s not for me, but you let the work, do do the talking. Tell me about your Instagram Story.

[00:23:48] And so I’m no, I am not a guru. Like, it has been just really good fortune and I don’t know why it did blow off one. I don’t know why it did. And I’ve asked myself and I’ve got some ideas and we spoke about this before, but I’ve got some ideas as to maybe what happened. But then other people have done similar things and it hasn’t happened, and I don’t know why. I don’t know what what the turning point is. I don’t know. But so yes, that’s what a few cases on started growing it. It started growing slowly. Sorry, should I say it’s not something that you go and grow yourself? It’s started to grow mainly with patients kind of shouting me out if you like, you know, and that that’s because I get asked this quite a lot by dentists about where the where do you start? Because I’m here with five followers and it just feels like this impossible mountain to climb to get it anywhere near the point where we want it to be. And the first thing is is ask your patient.

[00:24:44] We were all taught at uni that confidentiality is key and no one is ever going to want to know that they’ve had their teeth done. That’s not the case. Everyone wants everyone to know that they’ve had their teeth done. Maybe this is a Liverpool thing I don’t know, but I see exactly the same in Manchester and, you know, not a million miles away, but it’s a different city nonetheless. People want to tell everyone that they’ve had their teeth. It’s almost I don’t know if it’s a I don’t know what it is. I don’t know what it is. But they if you say to someone or by the way, tuck me in a selfie on Instagram, then that’s not you saying that’s not you being cheeky or anything like that. If you say, you know what, your smile looks really good. I’m proud to be associated with your smile. Please show it off. Please tell people it was me. It’s a compliment to the patient, you know what I mean? So that was how it I think the ball started.

[00:25:28] Roland, you say that’s all your patients.

[00:25:32] I probably do.

[00:25:33] Yeah, I think that if you’re happy with the work, yeah. And if I should say this and I haven’t said it too, that doesn’t mean that I don’t like your teeth. Probably bleep that one out as well. Maybe you don’t mind.

[00:25:47] No, I will probably say. I probably say it to everyone. And if not, if I don’t say it’s over on, then it’s not. I haven’t consciously not said it. It probably just sometimes doesn’t naturally flow into the conversation. But yeah, that was the big thing I found, and that was where all my patients came from. And on that alone, I was doing loads of this kind of work, and it was getting to a point where I was having to like this wasn’t an OK. I can’t wait to get rid of my NHS. This was a this is a ball like I can’t do the Udas that I’ve I need to do for this this year. Do you know what I mean? They like to leave a job, I basically have to leave my job in Wales because they had an NHS contract and I had to fulfil a certain number of days and these new patients coming through. I couldn’t do these treatments and keep up with the goods that I needed to do for that contract like it got in the way, which is a ridiculous thing to say. It was a lovely thing to get in the way, but it wasn’t like a let’s see how we can grow this and then the competition. So I spoke to K about this. K Kailash did a competition one time on Instagram.

[00:26:51] Kelly Solanki.

[00:26:52] Yeah, and I messaged him because I knew him through you guys. And I messaged him and I was like, Oh, Kate, it’s such a good idea. I’m going to completely rip you off. And he just sent back, you know, laughing faces go for it, brother kind of thing. And I did it and it just blew up. But it just I think we went from within a week. We went from about 5000 followers to about forty thousand followers, and I had not. I said to make literally like not even that long before we were talking about it. And I said to it, You know, the problem with reducing my NHS commitment and doing more of this kind of cosmetic stuff is that what if it doesn’t last forever? Whereas the job security in this, you know, patients are coming in and they’re getting a consulate within a couple of weeks and we’re doing the treatment a few weeks later. And this might not be sustainable. Who knows? I can’t completely bin off my bread and butter dentistry for this. And then that competition overnight just created a waiting list that then gave me the the security and allowed me to kind of jump in with both feet really into that kind of stuff.

[00:27:58] What was the competition, would you say?

[00:28:00] It was. I put it like a post on just saying. Smart composite smile makeover competition, you’ve got to like this post comment on this post tagging three friends and all of those friends that got to be following for your entry to count and pick your favourite smile from my page. Share it to your story and tuck me in. And I think that last bit was the one that no one else had done. Everyone else was doing. Share this post or as mine was, share your favourite smile. And by this stage, we had a few cases on there and it became a little bit self-selecting. So the the girl with the big, you know, massive hair in rollers and six inch long false eyelashes and big fake boobs and whatever else she’d like the one that had, you know, S-band very square composite. So she share that her story. But a lot of her followers would be into the same stuff she was and would resonate with that. Whereas the guy who maybe is a bit more like me or you, I don’t know, would maybe see a slightly more natural case and say, Oh, that’s I like that. I’m going to share that one. And his followers would be into the same kind of stuff. So it was a weird, like targeted marketing in terms of the style of the case in a weird kind of way. I don’t know. That’s one theory on why it went well.

[00:29:20] Ok, so then so then, you know, 20000, whatever new people are following you now. Did you also then follow up with with all the people who entered the competition and say, Look, you didn’t win, but lucky for you, 10 percent off or something?

[00:29:35] I had the idea. Yeah, no, I didn’t. I didn’t need to. That was my plan. It was when it blew up. I was kind of saying, Look, we’ve got all these new enquiries and this, that and the other and what you always you always think it’s a bit too good to be true. So I said, OK, you know what we’re going to do next is that exactly that offer, like maybe a little discount for everyone went to say, thanks for answering. And we just we were too busy

[00:29:59] And people started saying, Book me in

[00:30:01] Full stop. Yeah, we were booked up after that competition six months in advance for consults to consultations a day every day for six months. And the receptionists. Had a bloody heart attack because that Monday morning, the phone just was

[00:30:19] They just they couldn’t do the job, they couldn’t do the job. You all of a sudden you just had 40000 people.

[00:30:26] It’s OK, so not all of them wanted to come in for consultation, obviously some we’re trying to win the competition when I was looking through the messages and we ended up trying to respond to as many as we could. We’ve got like a little crack team together and started going through them all, and I reckon we had five thousand enquiries of people asking questions about booking in. And maybe that ended up being a thousand people who actually went all the way through and got in touch to book in like a thousand people calling a practise in a few days. And these receptionists have been like an NHS slash mixed practise receptionist for 30 years. They can book in a toothache appointment and book a check-up, and all of a sudden it. It was just carnage. It was absolute carnage. So we set off a like an online waiting list with a colleague of mine, Mark, and it all became a little bit more automated and we could just send out like 50 invites at a time. And it would it would slow it down. And then we move towards directly booking into the diary and all that kind of stuff. But we managed it in the end. But it was. It was. It was just crazy.

[00:31:25] And what’s the story now? If today I want to see Matt for composite veneers? When when will I actually get my composite veneers?

[00:31:32] And if you put your name on the waiting list right now, where are we? Well, first of all, not an easy thing to remember. Yeah, I reckon your consultation will probably be maybe May, June, so all of that will probably not be any treatment in like August. Bloody hell. Yeah, I cocked up the way in recently. I ah, I had a bad night, so I was looking through the diary and I realised that like this was only a couple of weeks ago. In January, there were no sorry. In February, there were like next to no consultations booked. And then I went into March and went on and then April and I was like, shit like the bubble’s burst and the patients aren’t here anymore.

[00:32:11] My job, I don’t have a job, and I

[00:32:17] Spoke to Mark because he’d set up this thing for me because that the system we used, we used Dental and Dental can only search for appointments in three month windows. So every time it book beyond three months, mark it after kind of manually go in and shift that three month window along a little bit. And I said to him, Look, is there a way you may be setting up so that I can do this because I feel bad bothering you all the time? And he says, Yeah, OK, I’ll do it. So he set off this a little slider for me to change, and when I logged in, it was set to 90 days, roughly three months. So I thought, OK, that’s when people can book up until that stage from now. So I put the slider up, it’s like a hundred and eighty or whatever it was. And thought, OK, that’s just going to allow people to buckle to six months in advance. But what I was actually telling Dental was don’t book anyone in for six months, like that’s when to start looking. So we had all these. Yeah, so but we were it now. We sent out a big mass email and we had to do it all manually. And we’ve just filled the diary for a little while now.

[00:33:11] But tell me about how things have changed in the process. I don’t mean in the actually the building, the composites, I mean in the process. What was it like coming to you then? And was it like now? Is it the same? Is it straight into a consult with you? Is it a TKO? Yeah, it’s actually in Liverpool.

[00:33:28] It’s the same. They come in, it’s a half hour consultation, a brief exam. You know, we’re not taking photos. We’re not taking scans. It’s not a big, comprehensive thing. It’s it’s it’s a brief exam and a chat and move on from there, really. We I will put a training plan on with my nurse. We’ll email that out to the patient and they’ll contact us to book their appointments. So I work in Manchester, Ru, but we’ve had Xaba on here before. You know, Xavier, you know, Ru Dental. That is slick. Like that is a real, well-oiled machine. And that’s a that’s a different system. That is the patient comes in and they have, you know, time with the CTO. Then we’ll come in and they’ll see me. And by then, all the photos will already be taken and then they’ll go back to the TKO. Once we’ve maybe come up with a treatment plan and they’ll talk through the plan, they’ll go through consent to the book appointments. They’ll, you know, a heck of a lot more gets done on that, that first the first day that the patient walks through the door and it gives me time, you know, for example, let’s say they’re having some whitening done. I can. It gives me the time to take a quick scan and send it off to you guys at the consultation, which then saves an appointment afterwards and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, no, nothing. Nothing to live for, but I work in a different system in Manchester, but I think I don’t know. I’m inherently quite lazy, so I end up just going with what’s there and you make it work and it’s fine, and there are pros and cons of each way. And but we’ve not made everything like super streamlined and super slick or anything like it’s we don’t we don’t need to. It’s nice to enjoy it and just feel comfortable and work and. Talk your way through and meet nice people and look after them the best you can.

[00:35:07] Yeah, although it’s fraught, isn’t it, because you’ve got patients you don’t really know? It’s not like a normal Dental practise situation where you might have met the patient for three or four years going before you start a treatment plan and then you’ve got you’ve got wants rather than needs, which I’d much prefer once myself when I was a dentist, I said, love the idea of once I used to say to a patient, this feeling doesn’t need doing, but do you want to do

[00:35:32] It like a

[00:35:37] Picture of a stained composite? I just get off on it. I just love it.

[00:35:42] But you know, it’s seriously so

[00:35:46] I just love it. That idea, I, you know. We all understand this. This issues with cosmetic dentistry and all the issues that we all know about. But there was one part of it I really loved about it was that it almost much more honest in a way in so much as I take my car for a service. Guy says brakes need changing. I’ve got no idea whether they need changing or not, man. I mean, like, I’ve no idea. And so, you know, you need that feeling on that back to, OK, you know, there’s, you know, you’re a new dentist, and I was in a private practise for me in Kent. Yeah. So this very British place and I turn up, you need those two amalgams out. You know, there’s this look on the face. It says, Do I really? And I get it. I totally get it now. It actually made me go, go out and buy straight away and intro camera when I was an associate so I could show them. But the the idea of this doesn’t need doing, but do you want to really make just to make me very happy? I think a little buzz, a little dopamine rush when I make sure to say yes to that.

[00:36:51] And you’ve said that to me before, and I say, you don’t need to drink this drink. What do you want to see?

[00:36:59] You know so much?

[00:37:03] Do you remember that dinner we had on mini spa maker of that night?

[00:37:07] I was with Barry Terry Rogers? Yeah.

[00:37:12] I hope he’s I hope he’s listening. Derek from Australia. So, OK. The problems, the problems of treating new people. I mean, you do a nice bit on the spa makeover, but the difficulties of the patient who doesn’t know what they want.

[00:37:28] Yeah. So I think to two things what you said then first of all, I completely agree that the cosmetic stuff is it’s nice that my favourite thing about my job is that my patients want to be there as a dentist. You get told every day, multiple times, I don’t want to be here, I don’t want you to do this. And as a dentist, you don’t want to do it, your root treat. And so on top of seven and you don’t want to do it and they don’t want you to do it, but you’ve just got to sit there and get it done and it’s crap. Whereas in this, it’s doing treatment that, well, I don’t the dentist love doing it, but I didn’t. This is like patients. I’ve, you know, I’ve been so excited for this. I’ve been looking forward to this. I can’t wait. It’s like Christmas and I’m doing work that I like on them, and I know that they’re going to smile and be happy at the end rather than, oh, that was an ordeal, you know, it’s just a positive, positive day. It’s a nice, nice atmosphere. And then the second thing about about kind of that trust is I’ve I’ve gone full circle on that, you know, like I feel like, yes, I totally agree that as a GDP, especially before you built up that rapport, you get just a little hint of, you know, do I really, really need that? Because the last guy said it was fine. Are you sure you sure you’re not, you know, just need new wheels on your car? Is the old kind of thing that they say, isn’t it? When I first started doing this kind of work and get patients from Instagram, I had a I had a habit of of giving what they wanted.

[00:38:51] So I definitely tackled cases that would have been better with Ortho with composite or cases that would have been better with porcelain, with composite. And I didn’t do that out of any kind of malicious, you know, money grabbing or anything like that. It was I was too kind of too eager to keep that patient happy. I suppose. I didn’t have the confidence I would maybe say to to correct them. But like I say, with time that develops and gets better, doesn’t it? And now patients coming in who will be better treatment, treat it with something else. I’m quite comfortable saying, no, you know what comes? It’s not the right option here. Let’s look at X, Y or Z instead. And and you know what? It never, ever ruffles a patient’s feathers the wrong way. The overwhelming reaction is, you know what? Thanks so much for your honesty, because they’re they’re fully aware of the fact that they were walking in asking you for a something that was they were going to spend a few thousand pounds with you and and for you to turn on and say, No, do you know what? I don’t want to do that, so I don’t think it’s the right thing for you. There are some other options that it, you know, we worry that it’s going to be taken a certain way, but it’s not. It’s actually taking the opposite way in my experience.

[00:40:02] Well, it is. If you if you say, OK, don’t do the bonding, but just have some, just have some bleaching in a couple of edges. Yeah, but but sometimes it goes the other way, right? Sometimes you have to say to the patients. You can spend more than you’d have to spend with composite veneers. I think you’re right. I think I think there’s a level of confidence that comes with knowing your six months booked ahead, who comes it comes out in your voice that the patient can see, Look, this guy doesn’t need this work. You just you’re just saying it as it is.

[00:40:32] Yeah. And a lot of that is the patients. You know, there are there are so many better cosmetic dentists out there than me, but these patients are going to see me for one reason or another have decided that I’m the guy they want to see. So they’ve already decided that I like this guy. I trust this guy. I want him to look after my teeth. So you’ve got it’s not like new patients when when people talk about, beware of the new patient with no rapport, you do have a rapport because they’ve decided that they like you or the main thing about rapport is is trying to essentially for you to try and get to know your patient on what is right for them and for your patient to trust and get on with you. Now, that second part is already done because they’ve come in because they trust you and because, you know, so that lack of rapport in the traditional sense. I’ve not found it to be an issue genuinely. If anything, it’s the other way its patients come in and go, Oh, you know, you’ve got all these Instagram followers in a big way, unless so you must know your shit. So whatever you say, I completely get it. It’s like you’ve got the credentials to to say what? What is right for that patient? And that that can go on.

[00:41:43] That is then you’ve got to be really kind of. Hold yourself to a high professional standard there, because if you’ve got patients who are saying, tell me whatever money, no issue, you know, yeah, and you’ve got to turn around to them and say, Honestly, let’s whiten your teeth, and that’s what a little bit accomplished on two teeth, and I bet you’ll love them. You know, I mean, you’ve you’ve got to hold yourself to that in terms of the patients coming in. Yeah, the three types you’ve got, the the patient comes in. The Scouser, the stereotypical Scouser, you know, I am. I thought, you know, 10 composite veneers, please. I want the whiter shade you’ve got. I know my bottom teeth are bright yellow, but that doesn’t matter. I don’t mind if it’s a different, if it’s a different colour. Or we may took a composite veneers and I want them. I don’t want any any porcelain veneers so thrilled and I can’t afford them anyway, to be honest with you. So just 10 10 composite veneers the waist as she can and I want them to look like I’ve been to Turkey, but I just don’t want to go to Turkey and that patient. You go, OK, cool,

[00:42:44] We’ll book you in. You just give me a take off.

[00:42:47] On the other end of the spectrum is the guy who comes in with very specific, you know, I don’t like that this tooth, my overwrite three is slightly rotated. My upper left, too, is a little short. And I don’t like this amalgam filling that I can see in my in my four. And you go, OK, again, there’s a treatment plan. Let’s let’s not start going well. Have you thought about 20 veneers? Because if they’re telling you what they don’t like, just address what they don’t like and go down the route of the different ways of addressing those. It’s that middle ground that are really hard where they say they say things like, I want my teeth to look done, but not to done and white, but not to white and maybe a bit fake, but quite natural. And you’re like, I don’t know, you’re like just talking in riddles. I don’t I don’t really know where you are. And and that’s the only time I’ve been stung, not stung, but I’ve not got it. Necessarily quite right for the patient is where they’ve asked for natural. And we’ve gone, you know, quite often incisal and braziers and maybe a little bit of texture. And this, that and the other and the kind of they come back and they go, I feel like I’ve got like little gaps between the edges of my teeth and like, there’s like lines on the front of them and I’m like, Yeah, that’s natural teeth look like. And I, oh, no, I don’t like that. So it’s such a visual thing, and it’s so different from person to person that

[00:44:10] So what do you do? Do you get your portfolio out photos? Do you like?

[00:44:14] So what I do, I I start with, I’ve got a go to case. I won’t say what cases, but there’s one case I always go to and it’s like the whitest square respondents on my page and I show it to the patient. I say, Is this too much for you or do you think they look nice? And if they go, No, they look nice, I go, OK, you don’t want natural, you know? Yeah. And then I’ll kind of go down a couple from there and just try and get a bit of a bit of a picture, really and figure it out. But you know, if we’re talking about composite, then it’s OK because if you don’t get it right, you can change it. You can add, you can remove, you can soften, you can redo whatever porcelain you spend time with. The temporaries don’t, you know, get the temporaries perfect and ask in the lab to copy those so you don’t have to get it perfect in your head. As long as you’re ninety five percent of the way there, you can work on it together if you need to afterwards

[00:45:04] After your work. So beautiful. I mean, it’s interesting because it is, though it is. We use it’s funny. Enlighten if we’re trying to talk to someone who’s not a dentist and we’re trying to highlight something about smiles, it’s a standard thing across all the departments that we pull up Matty’s

[00:45:22] Page and then

[00:45:25] On the Zoom we share, that’s what a line angle is that

[00:45:29] I didn’t know that talked

[00:45:33] Everyone. We pull up Matty’s page or we want to like, point something out. If you translate Dental,

[00:45:38] Speak to something that’s copyrighted that enlightens. Had a good year. I’m going to come after you. You’ve got a few quid in the bank. I can get my hands on there.

[00:45:48] But when did you go from, you know, just, you know, putting those buckle composites on and to where we are today with this beautiful, beautiful work? Was there a moment where you felt like I’ve got it now? And what are the what are the key things? I mean, look like your case? As I said, the line angles are beautiful. You’ve got a whole podcast with jazzy Gulati on this right right angles you. The line angles are beautiful, the symmetry and yet very natural overall, especially considering you live in Liverpool.

[00:46:18] The work now because people don’t realise

[00:46:21] People, people do not get the how white Liverpool people want their teeth and you know, people don’t get it. If you don’t, if you don’t know, you don’t, you don’t know for sure. But when did you get that moment of I can do this and what are the key things you look for when you’re doing a smile? Where do you start? How do you make sure what are the key sort of milestones of a smile

[00:46:41] That make it so nice? Well, it’s kind of easy to say, first of all, because I certainly don’t feel like that about my own work. I’m quite, I think, self-critical and always look into. I’ll always look at the case and spot something. I’m like, Damn, I wish I’d seen that and thought about, of course. But in terms of that self, is it self-actualisation? They call it where you think I’ve got this? I feel like I. I drop in and out of it. I kind of I’ll do a case and I’ll be like. That went really well, that’s good, that’s good, like, I’m happy with that. And then I can look back at that case three weeks later and go, That’s shite. That is awful. Why have it on that? Why haven’t it or not? And it’s just ebbs and flows, and some cases go well in some cases don’t don’t go so well. Well, one thing obviously never forget that Instagrams a highlights reel. You know, you’re only seeing the ones that’s gone. Well, there are there are cases that don’t go great and we need to tweak and make changes to. I think, you know, now it all becomes quite second nature. The first time you access a molar, you are consciously thinking about where these canals are, whereas eventually you just drill your access cavity and there’s the canal so you don’t think about it. So consciously going back to when I used to, like, go through the steps in my mind, it’s coming round to the front of the patient often, is what I’d say.

[00:48:01] We sit behind upside down until a little bit of an angle and we are always counting mid lines and incisal planes and all that kind of stuff. So sit in the patient corner on the front, make a little tweak here or there and set in that kind of the incisal upside down T. I call it so across your psychology to be centrals and that centreline, once that is kind of set to the face, the rest of it flows quite nicely from there. All the things that I’m kind of looking for while I’m while I’m doing it, line angles on laterals. They for me got easy light angles on centrals and on laterals make or break a case and having the flow of the lateral. The lateral wants to look like it joins the central to the canine. You know, it shouldn’t look like for central incisors and then a canine. The lateral should should kind of. It should just transition from the one to the three, and it should kind of curve up this the Leon and kind of exaggerate. Yeah, exactly. And it and it should kind of curve up just as the kind of the angle, the kind of the tip of the three comes down and out and and that flow from one to two to three. For me, that’s what like I look at and think, is that quite right? Is it not?

[00:49:18] Do you do the thing that Dipesh teaches about having the three at the slightly darker shade?

[00:49:24] I try and avoid doing anything that Dipesh teaches, to be honest with you, because it’s

[00:49:28] Really it’s

[00:49:29] Never really stopped me in good stead. No, no,

[00:49:32] I did that once

[00:49:33] Or twice, and it made no difference.

[00:49:36] So but you know that headlight effect people talk about?

[00:49:38] Yeah, no. So what? I’ve learnt the hard way in terms of longevity of composites. There’s there’s three things. Number one is make sure you sandblast before you edge because there is plaque and there is tartar and calculus on these teeth, especially like the medial area of a two and stuff like that. So get all that off and you’ll be amazed how much cleaner your etch look. Your pattern looks if you’ve cleaned it properly. Second thing is cure through glycerine, because with the best will in the world, we are not going to polish every millimetre of composite that’s in that contact point. We don’t we can’t do that without creating diasporans everywhere. So if you’re leavin on cured resin in your contact points that the patients then going to go away and stay in and discover, that’s when you get that into proximal staining quite quickly. What the third thing is, keep it thin. And Andy, Andy told me that he’s big on it. The thinner you keep them, the better they look for for longer than much easier to clean. You don’t get those dark into proximal areas and stuff like that.

[00:50:41] And you also get everything looks a lot more natural because you get that slight colour gradient of the tooth shining through. You know, you get that richness. Yeah, exactly. You get a little bit less warm at the tip, a little bit warmer up at the neck. And the kind of the carry on from that is that you then naturally get the canines looking a little bit yellow than the ones and the twos, and you’ve not had to do anything to achieve that. It’s just the natural curvature of the teeth comes through your composite when you keep it really nice and thin. So I did, I did do it. I did it. At first, I couldn’t tell it. There were different shades by the time I’d done them, because, you know, by the time you’ve got a lip in the way and you get the shine through and the different thicknesses and this on the other, they just look the same to me and patient never said anything. I thought, Oh, what’s the point? It’s just slightly more complexity that feeling.

[00:51:25] How long does it take you to do six eight teeth,

[00:51:28] Eight teeth now, or probably book two and a half hours

[00:51:32] At the end of that two and a half hours? You’re just tired? Or are you not?

[00:51:35] I mean, not anymore. I used to be. I used to be wrecked. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:51:39] So what I was going to say was at the end of that long appointment, it’s almost like you’re so spent that you then bring them back in for four for sort of refinements or no, is it done?

[00:51:51] No, it’s it’s done. I’ve had refinements once or twice where some cases are hard and you’re struggling and you get into the engineering at the time so far. But I’d say it’s maybe. I can count on one hand at the time that people have come back for planned refinements and that patients come back who have wanted to make changes, and that’s absolutely fine. But in terms of me sitting there, I can go in right. We’re nearly there. I’ll get you back in a few times.

[00:52:14] So, so do you now now it’s become so sort of second nature. A. McLain talks about it as almost like meditative when he said it. I couldn’t believe you were saying

[00:52:26] Because,

[00:52:27] You know, when I was a dentist, I know if I was never so comfortable that it was meditation. Do you find that at that point now?

[00:52:35] Yeah, I love it. It’s it’s my it’s like my chill time in my day. If I’ve got composite bond, then it whether it’s edge bonding, not funny. I do a lot more edge pollen than I do composite veneers. And that especially is just so nice to do. It’s just yeah. Whereas on the on the Nash it used to be, if I had a big block of check-ups, I think sound I can switch off now and just get through these check ups. Now the consultations are where there now. I’m tired if I’ve done a few consultations in a row

[00:53:07] With some other clinical tips. What are you? What are your tips on diets to make closure?

[00:53:12] Dysnomia closure? So I do it. Everyone does it differently. I’m a free hand kind of person. I don’t love matrices. I don’t love beauty indices. I prefer to just build it as best I can. So with a diastole pick where you want your contact point to be, if you’ve got to Centrals and they’re the same with each and you’ve got a two mil gap, then you want to add one meal to the meat of each central. However, let’s say you’re bond in two to two or three to three, and let’s say that there’s a space between upper left one or two, but there isn’t one between upper right one and operate two. Then you want to close that Midland Estimer off the upper right one and increase the width of the upper left one decilitre, then close the gap. So then you’ve got the. Does that make sense? Kind of always plan your spacing. You don’t have to close every gap evenly off of each tooth. I will build freehand a palatal wall with strong composite hybrid composite. I will then put Peaty and always do it from the plate. Ok, that’s a top tip. Close distance from the palatal because otherwise you come from the first thing.

[00:54:20] You’re looking at the teeth and you’re right, I’m going to close this. I’m going to shove some CompStat on you shove it on and then you come. You’re kind of your path of insertion, if you like is from the labial and then you do it. It looks lovely and you look in the mirror and you’ve got this like weird contact point where they kind of come and meet labile and then drop back in. You’ve got a big gap because you can sort of plate them. Yeah, yeah. So kind of your first thing, get your mirror out and close them from the palatal and then build forward off that. And then you get a much nicer contact point and everything else, and I’ll build it from the palatal off one to get my centreline right. Get it level. I’ll put you over that and do exactly the same off the other tooth and I’ll take my feet off and then I don’t have a diamond to close anymore. And then it becomes a little bit of microfilm or whatever it is enamel composite, which which which

[00:55:07] Which matrix

[00:55:10] Not. So I’ll build it and then put, you know, build it, then put Peterffy over it and then build the other one, but only almost like a free hand plate or shell, I suppose. And then I’ll use like a mile or pull to then do the labial three quarters.

[00:55:24] You literally use your thumb for the for that plate or show what you use one of those tall VM or instrumental.

[00:55:31] Sometimes I use a finger, but yeah, I think finger or thumb one of the two.

[00:55:37] Which makes it all go then

[00:55:41] To be ashamed of you, because the work is great, you know, we teach place composite with your thumb. The final layer.

[00:55:51] But this is why I always feel like a bit a bit of a fraud talk on things like this because I don’t I don’t feel like I. I kind of just wing it and make it all. But I know that what I do isn’t the gold standard, but it works for me. And that’s a big take home point is that just know because someone whose work is great does it one way. There’s a really good chance that that won’t work for you because your brains don’t work in the same way. Me and Jack, my colleague and friend who you know as well, our brains are completely different and I am kind of fiddly OCD a little bit at a time. Paint brushes little IPCA. He is like, Right, let me bug as much composite on as I can, and then I’ll spend three hours on it. Or do you know, Andy and Andy obviously was lucky enough to well enough to work with Manchester, and he has this composite on the tooth in like a like a minute and it’s cured. And then it’s just the rest of the equipment is shaping and polishing back and is his results are obviously unbelievable. So I think like, see what people do and see what feels natural to you and then just play with the different ways and see what works for your for your brain. Because we’re not all programmed like Depeche. If we were,

[00:57:03] We’d all be different. I get it. I get it. I get it. It’s interesting. Yeah, because we try to do this little series called the Mind Mini Tip, and that’s exactly what I was after. It was after those little tips that, you know, things that you do differently to everyone else. And and I know, you know, as a dentist, I know we all do things differently. But it was interesting when I said that to people kind of people find it difficult talking about it. I think

[00:57:29] It’s because I think we’re,

[00:57:31] You know, the biggest you said about, you know, like, how did you what made you develop clinically? And it was it was Instagram, you know, not ashamed to say at University of Instagram, seeing the work out there, visualising what you can achieve and being like Jesus, like I, you know, that is so much better than what I’m doing. I need to book my ideas up. Or, you know, I like that about that case. I’m going to try and do that in my next case. And that was where I learnt just seeing visual pictures. And that’s where I think maybe that trepidation in terms of giving a top tip comes from because your worry is this isn’t the status quo. You know, we all as dentists, we want to be in the herd, we want to be, you know, doing what everyone else is doing. And as soon as you put your neck out there a little bit, that’s when we feel like it’s a bit of a risk. And if everyone else is closed in disasters with bio clear, you don’t want to put your head above and go, I just shook my finger behind and pack it against PCF because you’re always like, Am I missing something here? It’s not like it’s the unknown or knowns. I remember when I when I first came out at uni, my first ever composite was on a on a central and I etched it and then I just put some composite on.

[00:58:33] I my trainer was sitting with me and he was like, Oh, like, you know, Bond, James Bond. And I was like, All right, OK, so I used it. And afterwards I was like, Well, I thought it was called Dental Bond, an agent that was just enamel. And that is like, you know, I’ve qualified as a dentist and I don’t know that I’ve got to use bond if I’m in and I’m like, It’s crazy, but I’m not ashamed to say it because we’ve all got these little black spots where we just missed one two minute sentence in a lecture one time. And like, I don’t know, no shame. So. And that’s the fear. I think, you know, I’m saying, yeah, just stick a finger behind and pocket that. But then someone who knows a lot more Dipesh might listen to that and go, Oh no, that’s terrible, because x y z will happen and I go, All right, OK, well, I won’t do that again. And that’s the thing is, you just you just don’t want to look like an idiot. Well, I know I’m an idiot. So it’s fine. I mean,

[00:59:23] The amazing thing

[00:59:24] Is the

[00:59:25] Amazing thing about the Dental courses. So many dentists come out of five years of dentistry without knowing what a line angle is. Yeah, I do. You know another? It was in the course somewhere,

[00:59:38] So I remember I I showed it

[00:59:41] To somewhere in morphology

[00:59:42] Or something. Yeah, I show my mate John, you know, John as well, John Carter, a picture of some

[00:59:47] Teeth that I’d done. And he said this way, this is years ago when we work together anyway. Yeah, the nice them lad. But you know, you just work on that line angle there. And I went, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I walked away and I thought, What is a line until I

[01:00:00] Haven’t got a clue. I don’t know what he’s talking about.

[01:00:04] And it was like when he described on the course it was a light bulb like, Oh, that’s what it is. So, yeah, exactly that. You know, we don’t all know everything.

[01:00:16] Never will we accepted it. So tell me this, did you? I remember when I was dentist, that was one thing that I used to do sort of on purpose to get, like you said, nurses want to feel like they’re doing a job for that patient. They’re doing something as far as patient care so as to get the nurse involved in much of it, you know, for. First of all, forehand Dental itself is is like that we were taught beforehand, it luckily the place I was, I was the part of the clinic that I used to work on was awful handed, but also things like for me, I’d get the nurse to choose shade. Sometimes I’d get the nurse to call core patients and say, Is everything okay? I’d make the tea for the nurse. I see this coming up in in on the group sometimes, and it’s.

[01:01:06] Do you know what, it’s really difficult because I’ve worked at a few places, I’ve seen really good management and I’ve seen lots of good management. And I think it will. I’ve got to be careful to not say the bad things because it’s a dig at someone which isn’t fair. The two practises that I work at now are both really, really well managed and well run. And you know what D’anticorps did as well? My practise was amazing. And you know, that was a big thing because Adrian was lovely. But Ravi was like, it is like disgustingly nice, like one of those people who you think is putting on, like pretending to be nice. And then the more you know, you’re like, Oh, geez, no, this guy is actually just this nice. And the nurses would just have done anything for him, like they just loved him. And Ravi now works at room with us as well, and everyone absolutely loves him. And don’t underestimate how important it is to like to just be nice. Just be lovely to people like if you’re barking orders and telling people and pulling people for chats that they don’t want to have and stuff like that, it’s got to be done.

[01:02:08] Sometimes, of course it has. But if the vast majority of the time when you’re able to be, if you’re just a nice human to people, then you get that two way respect and you also open up. You don’t want your nurses to be or your admins have to be like, Yes, sir, no, sir. Let me do whatever you say. That’s a terrible that is like the opposite of, you know, black box thinking and all that kind of stuff. You want that you want to turn around, you go, Do you know what might be in a deck there? Or actually, you did that case and you use that composite, but you should use that one. Do you know what I mean? You want them to be empowered to give that feedback? I think the traditional model of dentist or nurse down there is load of crap. And if you have dentists, a nurse doing different roles within the same ultimate aim, then you put yourselves on on that level and everything, just you get a lot more out of both of you and it works better for everyone.

[01:03:03] Yeah, you’re totally right, I mean, at the same time, there is an issue about if you were the owner, would you be able to be as friendly? I mean, I I am with with with my team, but then I’ve got.

[01:03:16] Yes. And this is the thing. I’m only I’m

[01:03:19] Only saying this. I’m like Georgie management, having never managed. So yeah, basically what that last 20 minutes of technical issues and everything just delete that because that is not a valid opinion on anything.

[01:03:36] Tell me about I’m going to move on to darker areas. It’s your speciality. Tell me about, yeah, tell me about your your worst day at work. Your most difficult patient.

[01:03:49] My worst mistake. My worst I to come to mind straightaway. The first one was and you know, it’s fresh from memory because it’s New Year’s Day to day New Year’s Day. A few years ago, I’d I hadn’t paid my registration. So 31st of December, I thought we were having a house party. That night, I was like, I’ll pay it later. I’ll pay later, pay later. At one point, logged in, put my card details in. Thought cool done right. Let’s carry on with the party and woke up the next morning just thought to log in and check. And it hadn’t gone through whether I’d come out of it too early or declined or whatever. I have no idea what happened, but I hadn’t paid it. And God, the worry that that feeling on New Year’s Day, because no one you can’t talk to anyone on New Year’s Day. So you’ve got this like twenty four hour silent treatment from everyone who knows any answer about how that are going to be able to work for the next three months. You go online, first thing you do Facebook forums searching for it and the stories people like Karl worked for six months. You have to reset these exams and these competencies and you’re like, Oh my God, I’ve got, I’ve got a family, I’ve got a mortgage to pay like we’ve got. We were getting married that year and oh, that was that was a really horrible day.

[01:05:01] But if anyone’s listening to this, well, it will be. It’ll be gone by then. But it was fine in the end. I was off the register for like five days, but now forever on my registration. It always says current registration period started in like five years after I graduated, which is really annoying. Oh, how funny. My worst on clinically was when I was not long out of itI, really, and this guy came in a classic NHS scenario. It lost pretty much the whole of the crown of his tooth and just wanted me to do something. And I was like, Oh, you know, couldn’t afford kind of elective no post and crown and all that kind of stuff. He’s like, Can you actually put a fill in on it? And I was like, I’ll try. So, you know, good old go and get the pin kit out, put a couple of pins in one of the pins lingual or whatever it was drilled a little pinhole. No problem. Got the pin drill. Put it in and I put my foot down to the pedal and they kind of they spin in and then they shear off the shank. So I put my foot down and it just the pin bit. The shark say it was the pin bay just disappeared and I was like,

[01:06:03] Uh, what was

[01:06:05] That? And you know, that like, plunge in your stomach and that sinking feeling in that heat and you go, Oh God, where’s this gone? I’m thinking in my head that’s gone into the pulp. This is a nightmare. What have I done? What I’ve ever done? Take a quick x ray. It’s come up the side. It’s gone through the tooth and the tooth into the PDL. Yeah, explain it. Tell the patient what happened, dad, understand any kind of, you know, he knew it was a bit of a last hope anyway. And blah blah blah. But I really like that affected my mental health for, I would say, a week. Like, I couldn’t stop thinking about that. And lastly, because it was so everything even tore, everything we do on a daily basis is to try and save the tooth and see the such precious little things that you bend over backwards and risk your neck and your sanity to save them. And then by just. Doing something wrong. I had just written this one off of the bin. It was a horrible feeling, really, really awful.

[01:07:00] I’ve been there. I perforated in in Dental school and I know what you mean. I still sometimes think about that moment, the blood coming through. But I still, I’m not going to let you off with that. That’s just too easy. What you just said. My.

[01:07:15] No, I’ve done absolutely loads. I heard you podcast. You did with a lady and a messenger afterwards. I’ve done exactly the same, you know, taking out the the lower, whizzy and the shank of the bird earnings on the patient. Yeah. So I was I was made. I’m done.

[01:07:28] Yeah, yeah, I’ve done them all, honestly.

[01:07:30] We could do another podcast. I was mid-end on a friend of mine and a colleague came in and said, Can you give me a hand with this tooth? And I was like, Yeah, OK, I’ll wait there. A second run through. I happily away bone, you know, whipped out whatever. And as soon as I kind of came out the corner of the mouth just like drooped open and I was like, I was.

[01:07:52] Thankfully, the nicest patient.

[01:07:53] I was like, Right, I’m so sorry. I’ve I’ve cut your lip a little bit whilst trying to get this out. A couple of stitches in it and we’ll see how it goes and hopefully it’ll be OK. And he’s like, cool. And he came back a few weeks later and it healed and fine and not really scarred or anything. So it wasn’t really a problem. Broken files, loads of them perforations, loads of them.

[01:08:12] Now, have you ever had a patient? You’ve done a small maker before and they sat, I like it and you can’t, you know, like, you have to start all over again. One of those?

[01:08:21] And. Ok. A few examples of this without naming names, I had a patient who said, I whatever you do not know it wasn’t that it wasn’t. I said, would you like your top two or three white and bottom teeth? And she said, No, I’d like to be the same shade and I’m like, OK, cool. So we shade marched and we did it, and it was really nice result, really nice result. And I was made off and she was happy, went home, spoke to boyfriend. I think if I remember correctly a little while ago now who said, Oh, they’re not very white, are they came back and said, Oh, I want the whiter. And. That was the first one that I can remember where it was like basically saying, I don’t like my teeth. So and which is fine. You know what, Polish and back a little bit didn’t didn’t take all the comps off sandblasted, put a lighter shade on fine don. Not not seen since ones where the patient up and gone, but I don’t know if I don’t know if I like them. And then there’s there’s this a.

[01:09:18] What’s your standard response, go live with them for a week, and then

[01:09:21] I say it’s the patient’s normal normally at the start of the appointment. It depends on the patient. You can pick your patients, some patients, you know that they’re going to just love them, you know, you know that this is some patients. You just get a bit of a sixth sense for it and often for those patients. I’ll say at the beginning, you know what? You’ve got high standards or very specific or you’re a bit funny about your teeth or whatever it might be. I’m not going to make any changes to these today. I’m going to put them to where I think is right. If you’re not sure of them, that’s OK. Don’t worry, we can always make changes. But what I don’t want to do is to essentially polish the back to your natural teeth, and it was a complete waste of time. So the rule is at the end of the day, we’re not making changes. But next week, this is the point with your name on it and we’ll make all the changes that you want. And the reason I do that is because I had a patient who essentially I did slip on the edge bond in three to three. She essentially made me polish them all back to enamel by saying, I don’t like that, but I don’t like that bit really, really particular with what she said. Lovely, lovely patient by the. We don’t have this line. Everything first. Really one of the nicest patients, but really particular and then kind of essentially got to a point where they looked exactly the same and then came back and was like, they look exactly the same. And I was like, Yeah, they do. So then we redid them. In the second time, I said, OK, I’m not making any changes today, but next time.

[01:10:35] And she came back and she did want to make a little tweaks to them, but it was a lot more controlled. And, you know, she knew a lot more what she wanted. And I’ve had patients a couple of times where I’ve had this chat and they’ve got they’ve gone OK and they’ve gone to the car. This was this and wants I can remember it was quite recent. And then she came back in and said, Honestly, I just feel like they are too square. I think it was. I said, OK, come in. Let’s at least soften them a little bit for you. So obviously there’s exceptions to every rule, aren’t there? Yeah, but you can’t. You just have to be really open with your patients and honest. And if it’s in composite fine, you know we can change to our heart’s content. It is. I do not mind spending the time doing this. You spent a lot of money and you see them. We’re not going to stop until the perfect for you, so you let me know what you want to do and I’ll do it. Porcelain is tricky, but then porcelain, you’ve got the whole you do a try and first you’ve had the temporaries on, you’ve made the patient aware. You know what, if this isn’t quite right, this is a hell of a job to do it, so be a hundred percent certain with me that these are right for you. You’ve gone through a lot more words. Composite, it’s a bit more, you know, let me do what I think is right for you, and then you let me know what you want, what you want to tweak.

[01:11:46] But you’re a super confident guy. But I mean, do you do that, you agree. I mean, you are definitely super confident.

[01:11:56] I don’t. I don’t. I don’t feel it.

[01:11:59] Really, because some of the things you say, you know, it sounds like so simple the way you say it, oh, it’s got to be just got to be yourself. You know, a lot of people find difficulty, you know, with that that simple notion of just being themselves with the patient, you know, with you. There’s a few things that with you come completely. Second, nature, for instance, that first time you lecture and I said to you, What other lectures have you given it? You said, it’s my first one. I was like, You were strutting around with a bottle of beer

[01:12:34] Like

[01:12:34] Like as if you own the stage where you know, you had the crowd laughing. You know, it was it was just brilliant. Brilliant performance. First time on the stage, first time. Where does the confidence come from? You’ve always been confident.

[01:12:51] I think in some ways I am confident in other ways I’m not. I don’t really know where it comes from, I suppose just. It’s the same thing. Maybe, you know, or chicken or the egg, we were confident kid who made the most of that or were you messing around with that? I don’t know. But then I’m no more confident than my brothers or my friends. I suppose it’s probably just it’s just the way, and it’s an impossible question for me to answer, really, because and this is why this is a problem. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t feel like I am particularly confident. If you’re telling me that I am, I trust your opinion and it’s a nice thing to hear and I’m grateful that you say it, but I don’t even know that I am, let alone give you a reason for why I am, if that makes sense.

[01:13:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but you remember being like, I don’t know, unsure of yourself. You seem so sure of yourself, you know, like for for a young guy, sometimes even when you’re not talking about teeth, you know, you seem so sure of yourself. Yeah.

[01:13:53] I don’t know. I mean,

[01:13:54] The president, you went for president of that society thing here. I wouldn’t have never have done that. Never, ever, ever have done it. So called.

[01:14:03] Well, why wouldn’t you have done?

[01:14:05] Because I’m like, if I go to a room, I’ll I’ll always stand on the side of the room. I won’t get into it. Contrary to what you might think, you know, at the end of day, you’ve got to remember we see each other at many somehow make it my event. Even even at my event, I’m quite shy. You believe it or not of meeting people, whereas you don’t seem that way. You don’t seem that way at all, man. You seem like you just fully confident. Have you ever done like drama? Have you done that?

[01:14:33] No. But. So like, do you think, could you pinpoint where that lack of confidence in certain issues come from? Or do you feel like that’s normal and other people are confident? Do you know what I mean? It’s difficult to when you know we’re all our own normal, so you can only really explain a reason behind something that’s a deviation from the following sense. Proper politician.

[01:14:57] It’s interesting. No, no. You’re right. You’re right. It’s interesting because because I don’t know if you listen to my episode with Alan, the Cornish dentist, I did. I said the same thing to him, and he basically said the same thing that you’re saying. It’s like you’re saying, doesn’t realise he’s confident. And then when I pushed him on it, he kind of went well, I guess, team sports or whatever. Then and then he got got back in touch with me the next day and he said, Oh, now now I’ve been thinking about times in my life and and now maybe, maybe it is very amicable for the guy. I don’t know.

[01:15:29] Guess? Is this what therapy is like? I have a love island. I’ll seek some 50000 is the guy. He’s such a nice guy, I suppose, because I suppose my

[01:15:40] Parents are fairly confident. My friends are confident and it’s just what

[01:15:45] Are your parents to do? And I ask you this.

[01:15:47] My dad is well. He was trained as an electrician and he’s kind of a project manager now. And my mom is a teaching assistant as a teaching assistant.

[01:16:01] So teaching assistant, did you? Did she ever teach in a school that you were at?

[01:16:05] No, she only started doing that. She she used to work as though she was a cashier in a bank, and then she had me stop working, kind of, you know, stay at home, mom until she worked part time. She did like Saturdays in the bank. I think I remember when I was a kid, but, you know, mainly at home. And then when my little brother, because there’s a big age gap between me and Josh, my my second brother when he started primary school and she had no more kids at home during the day. That’s when she took a job at his primary school. So her first job was like in a classroom with him. And she’s kind of she’s in a different school now, but. And that’s when it started,

[01:16:41] And the needs of your brothers, consider dentistry,

[01:16:44] Though, purely like. Probably out of stubbornness more than anything, so Mike Mike’s a doctor might is his GP training now and when he was writing his personal statement and all that kind of stuff, I was like, Well, you know, have you not thought about that six hours in what would have been like, second year Dental school? And he was like, No, I’m not doing the same as you kind of thing. I want to do medicine. I’m just going to go the opposite way. And now that me and my kids do medicine and dentistry kind of the health, if you like. Josh is Josh is like, Well, I’m not doing anything like that. I’m going to do law. So now Joshua Leaders doing law and of course, the barista. So it’s probably, probably a bit stubbornness, but also quite quite different people. I was always like little hands on things in health and like as a young kid, it was always painting and drawing and then up to like GCSE, I did after GCSE. I did like woodwork GCSE, and they were the subjects where I really enjoyed them and I was like, not truly good at them. And I just got on well in those classes and it didn’t really feel like school to me, whereas Mike was interesting. Mike Mike hated all that kind of stuff like his handwriting. That’s why he’s such a good doctor. His handwriting looks like a spider’s just run across the page with ink on its legs.

[01:17:50] How interesting do you say that man? Because so often, you know, getting into a deep conversation with Dipesh? And he keeps going back to woodwork at school as as as one of the key things. You know, it’s so

[01:18:04] Transferable in terms of that kind of that three dimensional spatial awareness creating something with your hands, isn’t it? And it’s different to, you know, like woodwork, especially like that is the one that I feel most similar to from school, not painting or anything like that. That’s two dimensions. You’re not thinking about things from different angles, not like making models where you just follow an instructions and remember the classic like you have to take air fix models to you, interview

[01:18:31] This stupid thing and

[01:18:34] Detail. It was like, Right, I’ve got a piece of wood and I’ve got a saw and a chisel and a file and and I want to make this piece of wood look like that. And it’s kind of the same. You’ve got a blob of composite and you want to make it look like that.

[01:18:46] Let’s look at what you reckon you’re going to be in five years time, you’re going to have a practise, we’re going to do. What’s the future look like for you? Did you like the taste of teaching that you’ve had so far?

[01:18:58] Um, honestly, I don’t really know, because if you’d have asked me five years ago where I’ll be now, it’s nowhere near. What I’m doing now. It was never a conscious decision, and I’m I’m kind of I’m I’m so sorry, I’m just dodging your questions. This is sort of horrible. But no, not actually. I will answer it. But if I decide, OK, in five years, I want to be XYZ at the risk in my mind then, is that I pass up other opportunities and other avenues that are open and all the things that I enjoy that I didn’t expect to enjoy because this is my goal. You know what I mean? Whereas if you just kind of almost say, I’m going to take one step at a time and each of those steps, I’m going to make the right step based on the information that I have, you’ll end up in the right place for you. And it will happen naturally and then you won’t end all kind of the tortured the guy who should have been and ended on test, but went down the route of Prav since then and always wishes he’d been done so that the dentist who wishes he’d been a doctor kind of thing because you, you don’t me with you.

[01:20:02] Let me

[01:20:02] Make sure. Let me make sure I’m understanding you clearly here. You’re not saying that there is a five year plan that you’re not sharing with us because you don’t want to disappoint us, the audience. You’re not saying that there is no five year plan.

[01:20:15] There is no five year plan. There are things that I know. There are things I love doing. So for example, teaching, yeah, I love that. You know, I’m very much helping Dipesh on your course, which is absolutely which is the way it should be and what I really enjoy it, and I really love that little light bulb moment or when, you know, because I think, yeah, we’re all going to which I love that. I love that side of things. I love helping people I love, I love. My favourite is messages on Instagram. Like, You know what? I listen to your podcast with jazz, and I’ve done this case and they’ll send me a photo and they’ll be like, my line angles are way better. And I’m like, Yes, I love that. That is a cool thing. So I really like teaching and feeling really good feeling. I think business ownership practise ownership is definitely a way to go, but I don’t necessarily know if I want to go and set up a squat on my own kind of thing because I feel like dentistry as a hobby. I’m really, really lucky in that I don’t feel like I’m going to work. I feel like I’m going to do something that I really like doing.

[01:21:17] And my worry, if I set up a practise with all the stress and everything that comes with it is that I would maybe detract from that if I was having to focus more on other things that I didn’t feel as passionately about. Also, you’ve got, you know, what’s your why? Why are you doing that? I love my job. I earn enough money to live a lovely life, and I come home when I forget about work. And like, we’re talking before about being on a level with the nurses rather than having to kind of manage things differently. I like that. I go into work and the nurse and my friends and and reception of my friends and the other dentist are my friends, and I know it’s a lovely, lovely place to be in. So practise ownership. It feels like the right thing to do because I do enjoy the idea of like maybe setting protocols in place and watching something grow and everything else. But maybe it’s a bit of a middle ground like in a partnership with the right people or that kind of thing. I don’t I don’t.

[01:22:10] Do you do any back teeth at all?

[01:22:13] Try and avoid them. Not out of like snobbery, I just really don’t like them. Like, I hate asking patients to open a bit wider. My and I’ve got really fat fingers like proper sausage fingers and like doing back teeth isn’t suited to me. Yeah. So what? I will do them, I’ll do them. You need a bit of variety.

[01:22:32] Don’t you know what I was going to say was like, you know, for someone of your age to be in the position you’re in, it would be really not sort of self-aware to not sort of appreciate, you know, be thankful. Have gratitude for for where you’ve landed, you know, you. Yeah, and I don’t want to make it sound like it’s luck only. But but I, you know, it is like you complete look, but it’s not. It is what everything is like. Everything is like if you to look at it that way. But I’m. My point is that you’ve managed to get yourself quite quickly, quite early on in your career, in a situation that most people would be really happy to be in. I mean, I know I would if when I was a dentist, if you told me you would only treat front teeth, there probably would be no enlightened right now.

[01:23:22] I just I’d just be doing that.

[01:23:23] I’d be treating front teeth as it ended. That said, that said, even this will become boring. You know, most jobs become boring. You know, it’s a weird thing to say because dentistry such a personal thing, it’s like saying you’re going to get bored of it means that you’re going to get bored of humans, which is unlikely. But the future, the kind of guy that you are, the confidence that you have and and the outside the box thinking, I know that you do. And when we discussing the next version of Enlightened and you come out with something and I’ve been I’ve been racking my brains for eight years about something.

[01:24:00] And then you’ll say something and saying, Oh yeah, that’s a good idea.

[01:24:05] Yeah, it would be a shame if you didn’t do something where you were the designer of the thing. You know what I mean?

[01:24:11] Yeah, I mean, and I would actually I would love that, but I would love exactly. Like you say, it’s a long career. And you know what’s funny? I was always like a staunch GSDP. Like, You know, are you going to specialise? Is the question everyone gets asked. My answer was, no, I don’t want to. I didn’t go and do an Saaho year because I knew that I didn’t want to do speciality training, so there was no benefit to me and know that kind of stuff. And then I’ve ended up essentially specialising in something that it’s not a specialism like a specialism specialism, but I’ve I’ve niche down really early, which is something that I never wanted to do. But I’m absolutely loving it. And I think the reason that I love it is because it’s happened naturally based on what I love doing. And if the next thing that comes along naturally falls into place, then I’ll probably love that as well. But I love my job at the minute, everything about it. So why would I consciously go, OK, this job? That’s great. Let’s stop this and let’s do this instead, because the grass is always greener. Yeah.

[01:25:04] So have you always been a content guy or you’re not even saying that you just think you’ve land on your feet and you want to enjoy it?

[01:25:11] And I think I’m a content guy generally. Yet you know what I am. And whereas before I was talking about the whole confidence thing almost saying this feels, you know, I don’t really even know that I am. This is something I do know that I’m a naturally very content person, which could also read as I’m a very lazy person and I’m happy to just do whatever’s going on at the time. But, you know, I’m kind of I’m happy with my lot and I’m really lucky for the people that I’ve got in my life and the lovely things have happened to me and the lovely job that I’m allowed to do and the great little baby that I’ve got downstairs and the brilliant wife and great family and great friends. And and they’re all a thousand times more important than whether or not my line angles are a bit shit on that last case. So I think keeping things in perspective has always got. I remember at my Dental School interview, I got asked, How would you cope with the pressure of the job? And I said something on the lines of, I don’t really know if it is pressure because, you know, pressure is like a fireman running into a building. And it’s not really pressure. It’s just teeth. With hindsight, what terrible answer. But that is like, that’s how I feel. It’s, you know, there’s no real. The stress and pressure is easier when you put into perspective and know what your actual important things are.

[01:26:27] Yeah, and you know, contentment, it’s it’s an undervalued thing. Somehow, it would sort of programmed to think that you’ve got to never be contented. You’ll never get anywhere, if you can. It’s a weird I don’t know if it’s like a city of London kind of, you know, that kind of business man who works all night, all day, all night. But contentment is so undervalued. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s all about being happy, right?

[01:26:51] Yeah. If you find contentment, drive success, like if you can find what makes you happy, then you’ll end up doing that and end up being successful. So like, look at Mini-SAR makeover. I just love coming back to that course because I just love being with you guys and it’s a fun weekend away and and I’m not doing it for like any personal gain or that kind of. You say the city of London, you know, let’s go here and let’s further our career and what’s in it for me. I just do it because I love it. But it has then naturally led onto me meeting some amazing dentists. Me learning loads more because I’m seeing the lectures again. Me. And you know, when you teach something, you learn it even better. So the benefits come without ever doing it because there’s benefits.

[01:27:34] Yeah, for sure. For sure. Let’s wrap it up. But it’s been. It’s been lovely to speak to you. You made a mockery of my final question.

[01:27:47] It’s just so you. The is now, buddy. You made a mockery of pace.

[01:27:55] Final question. It’s such a shit question, right? But let’s start with Travis. Final question. More darkness. Yeah, a little bit. You’re you’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest around you. What a three pieces of advice you’d give them.

[01:28:16] Right, you know what? Honestly, I listen to the podcast. And whenever I listen to these answers and I’ve never actually thought about what I’d say, which is ridiculous because I knew it was coming on. Three pieces of advice, I would say never lose sight of what the actual important things in life are like the the brand of your T-shirt or the make of your watch, that doesn’t really matter, like if the people around you. Well, if that note, you know, that’s actually not a fair thing to say, because for some people, they do take joy from that and that is absolutely fine as well, but don’t kind of conform to what someone else thinks is great. So if you’re surrounded by people who are dripping in Louis Vuitton and you’re not interested in it, don’t try and get your happiness from buying loads of Louis Vuitton to try and keep up with them. Find what? What makes you happy and stick with that? Number one number two is travel. Go in like, see the world. It’s a it’s a it’s a big old world and we’re in one little country, one little city, whatever it might be. You know, go and properly travel. Like, take a year out, two years out, kind of travel.

[01:29:30] Yeah. You know what I’d add to that travel young. Yes. Because travelling, travelling five star or whatever travelling old is not the same thing. Yeah, it’s it’s all well and good. I go, go and get a nice Thai food in Paquette or something. It’s not the same thing as when you get to pocket with a backpack aged 19. It’s a different situation altogether.

[01:29:52] And just like just rocking off in Peruvian towns who don’t speak any English, there’s one lady we were trying to order Pringles and she was stood there and she had a tube of Pringles behind her. And we were like Pringles, like points in Pringles, OK? And she was like, Yeah,

[01:30:10] Read Lost Inglis, really? Could you not have guessed that? Like, that sounds so similar. But yeah, like kind of go go to somewhere.

[01:30:20] It’s really uncomfortable with no money with either on your own or someone that you love and just enjoy it

[01:30:27] For those travels you did in South America. Was that totally different time to your Australia trip or did you? Was that all part of one thing?

[01:30:34] Yeah, no. We took like two years out, so we left. Yeah, we went to Australia and then. We came up to the UK like twenty two months later, something like.

[01:30:46] Well, yeah, it’s good.

[01:30:49] And I’ll address that one, but that’s bad third thing. Go and do the mini smile make over course, it’ll change your life.

[01:30:57] The news that such a loser? No, no, no. Stay away from Payman Langroudi on a night out. He is only going to be bad news.

[01:31:11] Are you ready? You ready to answer my fantasy dinner party question now that you’ve made a mockery of it? Three. Three guests that are alive. Fancy dinner party.

[01:31:22] My first one would be the guy who owns Red Bull.

[01:31:26] Shut up. My second will be your grandma in China. I think I was think I was lonely because I was I was listening today and I was thinking about it

[01:31:42] Today and I was struggling to narrow it down. I’d love to sit down for dinner with Dave Grohl, lead singer of the Foo Fighters. He’s just got such a like a what seems like a passion for life, and I’ve recently read his book and all that kind of stuff. John Lennon. I would love to hear his views on things and stuff like that. And Freddie Mercury. Oh, imagine that part

[01:32:08] Three, three musicians there, yeah. Oh, do you know what, right? You know, what could I get a hell of a party, right? Could I

[01:32:13] Cheat? Could I have a fourth? Because the fourth one would then be my wife? Because imagine going to that dinner party and then not having had anyone there? Yeah.

[01:32:23] Wink, there’s the brownie points. But imagine coming home from that dinner party

[01:32:31] And not having someone that was there with you that you could talk about it with.

[01:32:34] It’s interesting you say that. I mean, it’s a beautiful thing to say, but you know, when you travel alone, have you ever travelled alone? I went with Mike.

[01:32:42] No, I haven’t. Really haven’t. Really. I’ve been

[01:32:44] Little places. But OK, forget. Have you ever been to a restaurant alone?

[01:32:50] Yeah, yeah. I’ve eaten alone. I picked a loads. Yeah. Most nights, you know? Yeah, I actually

[01:32:59] I actually love going to a restaurant by myself. I think it’s one of my favourite things to do.

[01:33:04] Yeah, I did it.

[01:33:06] I mean, I’ve got to have headphones. I’ve got to have headphones to tell you, I’m not quite by myself, am I? I’m listening to something. I’m listening to a podcast or something. But I love being by myself sometimes, and that story of having someone to share it with. I have there’s been times where I’ve been on a just a simple thing made up, you know, I’ve been on a road where it just looks unbelievable. You know, going through even in the UK in between, you know, trying to go from your side of the country to the other side, there’s some there’s some hills, there are really beautiful. But. And that question of I’m looking at this thing and there’s no one here to share it with me has crossed. My mind has crossed my mind. Yeah, but there is a catharsis in it. As long you know, there’s a there’s something about, you know, not sharing with someone doing it on your own. There’s something about that. We’ve got we’ve got quite deep there, always. It’s been lovely to have you back. I look forward to seeing you look forward to seeing you in Newcastle.

[01:34:09] Lovely talking to you, mate, and I’ll I’ll see you in a couple of weeks. It’s really close.

[01:34:13] Yeah, yeah. Thank you. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole

[01:34:36] Thing and just a

[01:34:38] Huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value

[01:34:46] Out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] Patients don’t always know what they want, they they think they do, and they come in asking for something. And you know, it’s your job to actually educate them and actually show them that really what they’re asking for is not going to look right because you don’t want to start a treatment where inside something’s telling you all, you know. You know, you always want to have total confidence in what you’re doing from the very start, because again, from experience, the cases that I can think of where I’ve done what the patient wanted and actually it didn’t look right. And I knew from the start it wasn’t going to look right, but I almost wanted to do it for them, for them to say, Oh no, you were right.

[00:00:47] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:05] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Dr Tom Crawford Clarke onto the Dental Leaders podcast, kind of a series now where we’re doing, we did some sort of very established practise owner types. We’ve done some very young just out of university ties, but now a kind of a series. We just had Alan Bergin on as well kind of 10 years qualified in my world. That’s still a new boy. But 10 years out, you know, the kind of people who might be senior associates may be starting to think of opening their own places that that sort of bit in your career. Hi, Tom. Lovely to have

[00:01:40] You. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

[00:01:43] Tom, we normally start with back stories. I know you’re from a family of dentists. Your mum and your sister.

[00:01:50] Is that right? That’s right. Well, it goes back a bit further than that. So my my grandfather on my on, my dad’s side, he was the first dentist in the family. And I think what was amazing was that my mum, when she was three or four years old, actually used to see him as her dentist. And listen, did they know that, you know, 20 years later that they’d they’d be marrying the son of the dentist that she was seeing? So then my my mother is a dentist, her brother to my uncles, a dentist, his sons and my cousin is a dentist. And then I’ve got my older sister was a dentist and my younger sister actually was a dental nurse for for some time, she moved away from dentistry and and actually has come back, and she’s now my full time TCO, which is amazing.

[00:02:37] So was there ever any doubt that you were going to do dentistry or wouldn’t? When did you actually decide?

[00:02:42] Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I was 15 16 at school. I enjoyed sciences. I enjoyed sport. So I was doing biology, chemistry, maths and and P.E. for my A-levels. And it was a decision whether, you know, medicine, dentistry, physiotherapy. I was quite heavily involved in rowing at the time. So again, that was always also a consideration. Whether I been going professional probably wasn’t ever on the agenda, but whether I was actually going to take that more seriously. After I left school, my dad was in property and he sort of said at that time, Really, it’s not the area you want to go into. It’s very uncertain. And obviously we had a nice lifestyle growing up and my mum definitely had given me the information, shall we say, to choose dentistry as a career. And I certainly haven’t. I haven’t looked back whether I’d want my daughters to go into dentistry or not. I don’t know yet, but for me, it’s been a great profession so far, so I suppose it was always maybe it was in the blood, maybe it’s something in the water, you know? But yeah, dentistry was it was kind of it was kind of what I was set out to do. I think from the very start,

[00:03:51] You grew up in

[00:03:52] Winchester, in Worcester, where this is where the sauce comes from. No, no. It’s fine. No offence taken.

[00:04:01] So what were you like as a kid? Very sporty.

[00:04:05] I was very much into sports. I have, you know, pretty good, pretty good hand-eye coordination. My my foot to eye coordination wasn’t quite as good, so football was definitely not on the cards you to play a lot of rugby. And then I think at 14, my my rowing coach at the school sort of said to me, You know, you’re quite tall. Have you tried your tried your hand at rowing? And I hadn’t even really ever considered it, to be honest. And I still don’t know what made me go down to the first training session. And then, yeah, it just it just took off from there. So training twice a day, most days of the week. It definitely shaped me as a person because, you know, trying to balance that with school was quite tricky.

[00:04:51] And do you still run now?

[00:04:52] Do you know what? When I left school at 18, I was national champion. I think five or six years in a row I’d ride for Great Britain and went to Bristol University and never have sat sat in a boat again. So it’s still, you know, on certain mornings when the river is beautifully calm and the sun shining. I think to myself, Oh, I wouldn’t mind getting out on a boat, but it’s weird. I’ve almost convinced myself now I’d be terrible and I just couldn’t. I just couldn’t face it. So, yeah, not set, not set foot in a boat since

[00:05:28] I know what you mean, though, I used to play quite a lot of tennis when I was a kid, and the idea that I’m not going to be as good as I was back then breaks my heart. I still want to play anymore.

[00:05:39] The funny thing is, you know, you probably would be better than most people. But yeah, it’s funny what you tell yourself.

[00:05:47] So then you why Bristol was it, had you been there, you know? Did you have any connexion to the town?

[00:05:53] I didn’t have any connexion. I mean, I was from Worcester, so yeah, but yeah, it’s nearby and it’s an hour’s drive. And I’d applied. I think I applied to Manchester, Leeds, King’s, Cardiff and Birmingham. I think and obviously Bristol. And I just I just really liked it when when I went round, it was quite a small university. At that time, there was about 60 sixty or 70 to the year and it just had a great feel about it. And you know, the thought of being able to drive home at weekends and my washing was obviously at that time of my life, quite quite important. So, yeah, beautiful city.

[00:06:32] And and I can imagine as a student, it must be a wonderful place to study. I was in Cardiff and we used to go over sometimes and I go, I go regularly now, obviously. How were you as the Dental student? You took the class or not?

[00:06:47] I certainly wasn’t top. I hopefully wasn’t the very, very bottom I was very much in in the middle there. I mean, there was some ropey years maybe where I probably could have worked a little bit harder. But yeah, I definitely didn’t excel. I mean, there were certain areas where I remember being quite good at orthodontics, but it’s just weird, isn’t it? The the way that you’re measured is obviously how you perform in the exams. And I think if you have that kind of ability to learn for an exam and answer the questions correctly, you can be perceived as a better student than maybe the work the work you’d put in would imply. I’m sure I’m sure a few of the tutors or the teachers at Bristol probably were keen to see the back of me. But I said, I

[00:07:33] Mean, I’ve got an uncle to uncle, so dentist. But I wasn’t near them around the time they were in different countries. When you when you went into dental school with your mum and your sister and all that, you know your granddad, you said your grandfather. Yeah, so did you did you have an outlook on the kind of dentist you were going to be even as you were being in dental school? Is there pressure to improve on the generations?

[00:07:59] I don’t ask. It’s a good question. I don’t know. I don’t really ever felt that. I never felt there was pressure there. I think dentistry has changed so much. And certainly when my grandfather was a dentist to now, it’s it’s a different profession. You know, he it was just fully NHS, and he was telling me that, you know, they opened the practise and, you know, queues of people down like down the road to see them. And obviously, you know, he had a very good living. And I think for doing not doing very much, you didn’t have to do any advertising, for example, I think he was the only dentist in Worcester at the time. And obviously, my mother actually took over his practise, which is very nice. So obviously there was maybe a bit of me that thought I might go back there one day to to buy the practise of her. Or maybe, you know, join join with my sister. And I think there was a moment in my career a few years ago where I had that opportunity and it came became fairly obvious that my sister and I, as much as I love her dearly, we were never going to be able to to work together. So at least I now know that that was that was tried and tested and wasn’t going to work and

[00:09:09] Expand on that for me.

[00:09:10] So I don’t know how to put it in a nice way. I mean, I think we have a lot of respect for each other. Like I said after the new year, I think I think there’s always that element she was. She’s two years older, but she did a degree before dentistry, so she was. She’s technically a few years younger than me in a Dental kind of experience kind of way. But you know, she she, you know, brought the practise of my mother’s Dental partner at the time a few years back. So she had her foot in the door. And I think she very much felt it was her practise. And if I wanted to go in there and change things, it would, it would have to go through quite a lot of hurdles to to maybe make it past. And I think, you know, for me, I went into it thinking, Right, I’m going to change all of this, and I think it was partly my my problem. You know, I I probably kicked the business, if you like, because, you know, I had all these great ideas and my wife who works, works for the business now, you know, she had great ideas, and I think my sister just didn’t want it to change at that moment in time, which is absolutely fine. And I respect for that. But yeah, I think I think it was just it was just never, never going to work.

[00:10:16] So sometimes those things are best left. I mean, Prav, my co-host. He could easily have gone into business with his brother, but both of them, we had them on. Both of them said, now that whatever. And they both run super successful businesses of their own.

[00:10:33] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:35] So it doesn’t, you know, I don’t think you have to beat yourself up about it, but I just wanted to know what the origin of that was. So go on qualified as a dentist. What do you do next?

[00:10:46] So I didn’t take a gap year. I mean, I’ve a July birth is I’m quite young for my academic year as well. So I think I was twenty two when I’d actually qualified as a as a dentist officially and obviously just got a VTE job. I was very fortunate. I got a very good vet. Trainer is a guy called Dinesh Fakey up in Redditch, so I moved home, which was convenient and I worked there for a year and I had a great time. He was a he’s actually a Royal College of Surgeons implant tutor, so I felt like I had a very good starting point to my career was very, very helpful. And I think it instilled in me, you know, or maybe gave me the I don’t know the idea of who I could become, I suppose looking at him. I was in admiration of him. Then finish it. And that’s when I took a job with our good friend Simon Childs, parents down in Staines. So I was there for a few years and it was nice, actually. Simon started working at the practise with his wife, Meghan, when I was still there. It was nice to have a stint working together and it was a busy NHS practise at that time. I think I was doing eight thousand ideas. It was. It was full on, but I think, you know, again, the NHS is amazing. It has to be there for people, but it allows dentists to actually get experience at that time.

[00:12:07] In your career where you don’t really know very much, you know, you just need to get your hands dirty and actually just do a lot of a lot of stuff because Bristol was very good. You started seeing patients in the second year, but you still didn’t really get a lot of hands on experience just because of various reasons. I’m sure you get less experience now, especially with all the issues with COVID, so it was just good to actually be in a busy practise and understand and learn what I did and didn’t like or what I wasn’t very good at. And I and I took the decision to do the Restorative Diploma at the Royal College of Surgeons quite early on. I think I was I don’t know whether I’m still am, but at the time I was the youngest person to to start that course and it was a full on course. It was financially a lot of money. I think it was twenty twenty five grand to do it. You had to write a two or three thousand word essay every month, you know, 50, 60 papers. But my goodness like that just gave me so much understanding at the basic knowledge of everything, you know, inclusion, especially that I still think it’s actually had a lot of influence on the jobs that I then got afterwards and I suppose the confidence in my own clinical decision making and treatment planning.

[00:13:18] So yeah. You studied with Simon as well, right?

[00:13:22] So he was at Bristol when I was at Bristol doing dentistry. He was doing pharmacology. So we had three years, three years together and it was funny. I met him on Freshers Day. We were literally a few doors down from each other in the same halls, and we’ve literally been best mates ever since. But yeah, then he went on to obviously do dentistry at King. So yeah, we had we had a few years together.

[00:13:46] So then after that, how I mean, it seems to me like, you know, I’m in the sort of the privileged position of being able to see you guys come through and watch your careers. And it seems to me like you sort of accelerated towards Harley Street. I mean, I remember when you qualified, I remember that time quite well. How did that happen so quick?

[00:14:08] Honestly, pay. I still look back, and I think, how on earth am I? Am I where you know, how am I? How am I here? It certainly was never a dream of mine, I suppose. Maybe I didn’t have. Maybe I didn’t think it was ever going to be possible. So why? Why dream? An impossible dream? But it all sort of happened by default. I think I was working at a time as an associate and it was a mixed list, and I and I just wanted to take the decision that I wanted to start to do implants. And at the time I started on the course with Dr Aselicon Osborne. Dr Corey Fran and and Zack Cannon. And obviously through that I met Matt Fazilka. So at the time my associate job, I wanted to sort of cut down my hours, stop the NHS side of it and put a bit more time into education. And and it just came about that I had a bit more time and physicians sort of said to me, Look, you know, by that point, I’d done four or five years of courses with her, and she just said, I’m sort of looking for a sort of semi associate, but I also, you know, I have space for you to rent a room from from me. And I sort of took the opportunity with both hands. I bought a very small list off of her of patients and started renting a room from her one day a week.

[00:15:32] And then it was almost like with sort of COVID. You were sort of forced into this position where you had a lot of time, especially through through the initial lockdown where we weren’t doing anything and my wife and. I who my wife has an advertising background, so she does a lot of my social media and we just put out that we’d be doing sort of free FaceTime consultations. And during that first lockdown, I think I spoke to about 400 people on consultations. Wow. And I basically just had a list of people to see and I then have now worked it up to, you know, being being there for four days a week with a pretty healthy waiting list. So it kind of just came about by default and I was very fortunate. I have a lot to thank and oh, positive for my career because, you know, without that initial opportunity, I certainly wouldn’t be where I am today. But yeah, it just it just it was a sort of fight or flight response, really. I had to make it work. I sort of, yeah, my associate job kind of. It wasn’t going the way I wanted it to, and that ended quite quickly. So through death, I just I just literally had time to kill and I had to make it work. So. So yeah, that’s where I am.

[00:16:45] So the arrangements are they is it literally you rent the room? What’s what’s the actual arrangement, isn’t it?

[00:16:51] That’s it. I just I just rent the room. And then she she obviously is very heavily focussed on implants and, you know, big, big cases. So any of the various

[00:17:01] Cross referral between you?

[00:17:03] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I’m obviously not at that level yet where there will ever be one day. I mean, again, the being at the practise, I get to spend as much time as I want with her on, you know, ridiculous cases where obviously a lot of dentists who she’s towards over the years referring to cases they can’t do. And you know, we’re talking serious, serious stuff, and I just don’t know whether I’ve ever got the balls to do that on my own isn’t what I get doing it when someone is there holding your hand and telling you what to do. But my goodness. Yeah.

[00:17:36] But but you are doing implants yourself as well.

[00:17:39] Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously through social media, yeah. If people do know of me, they know me for composite bonding and Invisalign. But you know that that does take up a vast majority of my work at the moment just because of the the referrals I’m getting and, you know, just the demographics of people that I see. Obviously, it’s very easy to market it on on social media because it always looks very nice. And you know, that’s that’s what gets the patients interested. I’ve not really understood how I can market the implant side of things because again, you know, not not seeing a tooth there, it doesn’t always look that sexy on Instagram, and obviously people do it very successfully, so I need to probably take some advice off them. But yeah, I don’t mark it for implant patients. I I do it by just by chance of patients who’ve come to see me do need implants or they know of someone that needs implants. So there’s a sort of internal referral there. But yeah, a lot of the cases I’m doing are with Physiol, So.

[00:18:35] So then you know, you said your wife has an advertising background. Does she spend most of her time working with you or does she do a different job as well?

[00:18:44] Well, she’s she’s got the very, very hard job of being a mother to two beautiful little girls. But no, she she she had 11 years in advertising. And you know, when I when I met her, she was working for a really very good firm and, you know, working on awesome accounts. She was sort of a global account director, but we had our first daughter and it just came to the realisation that she was working crazy hours. And if she went back to it, she was just not going to see the kids or the kid at that time. So I’m not the biggest fan of social media, but she is. So it was just, you know, a perfect harmony, shall we say. And and yeah, before that, I didn’t had it. I didn’t have any social media account and we started it together. And I mean, most, if not all, of my work comes through through Instagram.

[00:19:35] So did you any paid or is it organic?

[00:19:37] Do you know what we did? We did, we did there a few paid adverts. So, you know, it’s amazing the spend that you can have and the return on that spend, it’s it can be very successful. You know, you can spend £30 on an advert promoting it and you know, you could get 50 or 60 Leaders off that. But a lot of it is just, you know, now it’s just organic because again, I don’t post that much purely because we’ve literally got a two or three month waiting list to see people. So it’s almost like, you know what, almost what’s the point of posting?

[00:20:09] I know obviously a fantastic position to be in, huh?

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:15] You know, the I’d say, the majority of people that I come and see in the West End, maybe they’re booked if they’re lucky, two weeks ahead? Yeah, many of them less than that. Yeah. So that’s a really fantastic position to be in. What would you say, as I’m quite keen to hear it from from someone who’s not sort of a social media fan. What would you say is the secret to building up a page that actually converts patients? Because we have, you know, there’s plenty of people who do pages for dentists and then there’s people who do it very successfully for patients. What would you say is the key is as someone who’s not keen on it?

[00:20:56] Well, I mean, our pages, certainly for for patients, you know, with pretty much the prime purpose of getting patients to come in. So so I think for us, I’m always having to paraphrase my, my, my wife here, you know, it’s to make people see you as a person rather than a dentist and to paint the full picture because you know, when people are coming in to see you for what can potentially be life changing treatment, they they have to almost, you know, we have to know each other and to start treatment on a patient that you don’t know, it can sometimes end up in a sticky situation. So. So I think having that initial well, information for the patient to see you and to suss out whether they like you as a person is probably the most important thing that I think the social media can help with.

[00:21:50] Yeah, but what? But what are tips? What are tips? I mean, what? What have you done differently to get your? How many thousand followers have you got £15000?

[00:21:58] No, no, no. Do you think the thing is baked again? My wife wanted to get to 10K like last year, but we’re only on eight. And it’s funny because the number of the number of followers you have, it doesn’t seem to, you know, it might be. Yeah, it really isn’t. And I think it used to be, and it was almost like a kudos thing. Or, you know, how many followers have you got? But yeah, I mean, my my personal tips would be just again having having a wife who was a non dentist is very right because you’ve made the right person because I’m really not going to take much credit for it. You know, she she, but she sees teeth in a very different way that I see teeth, right? So, you know, I can be so proud of a case that I’ve literally bent bent over backwards. I’ve done everything in it, and for me, like the skill that’s gone into it. And she, you know, she will sometimes look at it and think, Well, so what have you done like? You know, what’s what’s the difference? Whereas other things where you just think, Well, that’s that’s a simple, you know, everybody can do that. And actually, you know, she’ll say that’s actually more impressive. So to have that kind of benchmark, I think, also also can help. So maybe maybe you need to get my wife on on the next podcast and she would help them.

[00:23:16] I mean, you make a brilliant point, though, because you know, the retracted view we love and it scares the hell out of patients, you know?

[00:23:25] Well, that’s a good point. I’m just, yeah, oh yes, my shots are key.

[00:23:30] Yeah. And and then, you know, the thing you were saying about making humanising you, I mean, if we talk about who, who’s the most someone like Rhona, who’s so popular on social with patients, she’s she’s kind of constantly talking to the camera, and I don’t follow that avidly, but she’s she’s she’s doing things which are non dentistry a lot of the time.

[00:23:55] Oh, oh, goodness, yeah. Yeah, she’s yeah, she’s a

[00:23:57] Celebrity commenting on, you know, new stories and this sort of thing. But look, I think it’s an important question because you’ve definitely done it successfully. And it’s it’s kind of a it’s a wonderful sort of case study for someone who you know you were doing one day a week lockdown hits, which is, you know, when at that point none of us knew what was going to happen next? And then you come out of it busy four days a week, waiting list in a matter of a year. And it’s it’s been a great year for a lot of people in dentistry. You know, I guess because of lockdown in a way, but it’s an important question. Because there’s a lot of people who who could benefit from that, especially now with the whole NHS story that we can see falling apart and a bunch of there must be a group of people who are already on the cusp of leaving the NHS, who are now going to say, Look, that’s it enough. And when you speak to people who are only in the NHS, they tend to have this view of private that it’s the same thing, but more expensive or the same. And I’m not even talking about the quality of the work, just the same thing, but more expensive. And it’s definitely not. And the thing that isn’t the same at all is the number of patients waiting to see you. So cracking that really is the key. How about tick tock? If you look to that

[00:25:20] And to be honest with you? So obviously, we’ve got a four month old baby at the moment. So are we? Yes, they got a three and a half year old and a four month old. And obviously our priority is has being slightly shifted towards towards the kids so slightly, just slightly. But, you know, next year, I think we’re going to we’re going to really push it and see, see what, see what we can make happen, basically. But the thing is, I I don’t know. Talking on camera, I’m happy to do it, but it takes a lot of time. Me planning and preparing what to say. It doesn’t always come naturally. I remember having some head shots taken and I genuinely hated it. You know, it’s just it’s not. It’s just not for me. I’d much rather be. Yeah, I mean, then generally, dentists feel comfortable in somebody’s mouth, right? So, you know, that’s our safe space. And, you know, put me in my Dental surgery in front of a patient. I’m, you know, that’s my that’s my arena, right? But take me out of that. It’s, you know, it’s a totally different experience. I mean, I’ve done a than a lecture recently, the ADYE, and I did it with Zieler. And it was, you know, to a room of three hundred dentists. And it was, you know, I don’t mind public speaking. I quite enjoy it, actually, but only one I’ve really prepared. So, you know, things like social media, I think because it’s so quick and you’ve got to just be I can’t imagine you will spend a week or two weeks preparing, you know, 30 second video, right? So it’s just going to come naturally. And just for me, it just doesn’t. And I don’t have any desire to try and make it become more natural. You know,

[00:26:59] I know what you mean. I mean, I think though you’ve got one has to think, what is what is the medium your best on? Because I’m just like you. I hate it when when there’s a camera and lights on, I’m just this other person. I literally hate it. And then at the same time, I break the balls of all my marketing people and say, Why do we make more more content and all of this? And they say, Well, why don’t you? But the strange thing is, for instance, on voice, I haven’t got a problem at all. I mean, I mean me and you can see each other right now because the platform, but the video isn’t going out. And as long as the video isn’t going out, I can scratch my back and, you know, move, you know, I’m awkward on camera, but it’s it’s it’s important to know what you’re, you know, be self aware of it. What is it? You’re good at? What is it? You’re not good at and you know you’ve got your wife there? I actually really love the page, dude. I was looking at it today. It’s a nice combination of before and afters and you know, pictures of you welcoming sort of celebrities. It’s all about the celebrity side, the sort of the influencer side is that was that something you went after, you know, in a in an organised way? Or how did that come about?

[00:28:10] Yeah, very much. I mean, again, my my wife can see the potential of it. It’s a running thing here, isn’t it? So obviously there is there is real potential there. We’ve worked with quite a few sort of influencers and, you know, some have literally brought in 50 plus patients of, you know, one case where you’ve done it free of charge. So it might be a sort of three grand investment, but you know, you’ve literally got hundreds back. And but it’s all about trying to work with the right right people. It’s not always been plain sailing like we’ve we’ve certainly had a few who we haven’t actually gone on to treat because they’ve, you know, just mess this around with appointments and it’s, you know, it’s never going to work if that’s how you start off. And that can be the same for just patients in general, right? You know, if the patient is failing to turn up, it’s kind of alarm bells. But but I think just trying to find people that fit with you and fit with your ethos and fit with your kind of personality type and just making sure that you’re getting the right demographic of patients and we get them to to send in their stats of who they follow, where the people live, what ages they are, because that has a big sort of impact on what you can get back. I mean, we’ve treated people with 300 and 400000 followers and not got a single patient. And you just think it’s actually the ones with a smaller group of. Followers like 30 to 60 K, it seems like they’re exactly more engaged and that the, you know, the people just I think, yeah, I think I think that is exactly it. It’s more engaged and they just will listen to what they’re saying. I think if they’re too big, it’s more. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know the ins and outs. You probably know more than me about it, to be honest.

[00:29:54] But I mean, we’re working on it on on our side. We bought a platform that you can check the influencers, check you know, where, you know, for instance, like the person with 400000 followers, maybe three hundred and forty thousand of them are in South America or whatever. That’s why, you know? But yeah, it’s another it’s another whole new area I find nowadays with marketing. You’re having to subsection marketing into lots of different sections and find, you know, different specialists in each one of those areas. And pretty soon, we’re going to have to start making everything in 360 for the Metaverse. Oh, let’s let’s get onto some of the clinical stuff. So you’ve you’ve done have you done all of that sort of digital smile design piece? Is that when a when a patient comes to you and says, Look, make my smile better? Yeah. Take me through. Take me through the process you run through with the patient. And you know, of course, we all do a certain number of things. But but what are you looking out for most?

[00:30:57] Well, I mean, the work the workflow for us is that they they get a virtual consult now with my with my treatment coordinator, Lydia, my my youngest sister. So. So that’s done beforehand so that she’s got a set of questions that she asked them. So we get a good idea of what they’re they’re looking for. And, you know, she gives them a range of costs as well, so they at least know what they’re looking at because again, there’s no point somebody coming in and seeing you when it’s out of their out of their budget or, you know, it just wasn’t the right fit. And I think because of Instagram and because the patients are coming through Instagram, they know that my my aim is for them to look supernatural. I want them to be walking around and people complimenting their teeth. Not or who’s your dentist like? You know what you had done? So, so the patients I see are generally asking for them. So when they do come in to see me, they’ve got all the information ahead of the appointment. And it’s really just for me to get to know them a bit better and truly understand why they’re having the treatment. Because yes, you know, so many people come in and say, I want, I want my smile to look perfect. But you know, it’s such a subjective term and just trying to get down to the nitty gritty of what it is they want. I think sometimes all the questions that I ask and the fact that I’m there just simply listening to them can sometimes get you into a bit of trouble because you’re almost giving them too much information and then they become almost too informed. And they, you know, they start telling you what they think they need. And sometimes certainly with the demographic of patients that I see on a Harley Street, you’ve almost got to just be careful, I think, with the amount of information you give them. And that’s just in my my experience.

[00:32:33] I’m an example of that. So you tell someone they’ve got a centre line shift and then they start obsessing on that.

[00:32:39] Exactly. That’s actually a brilliant example because, you know, a lot of my cases, I’m doing Invisalign on beforehand. And, you know, with the power of digital dentistry having a scanner, you know, the photograph. It is so amazing for us as dentists to actually be able to show these patients the problems and just inform and educate them. So it’s been, you know, I think we are very lucky to be in the era of dentistry that we’re in. But, you know, I want to give them the information because afterwards, if you hadn’t told them about the sensor line shift before and they noticed it afterwards, it’s your fault. Right. But then but then so you want to tell them beforehand, but then you don’t want them to get a, you know, a complex about it, right? Exactly. So it’s such a fine line. And I think the benefit of spending time and talking and listening and the consults are an hour when they come in to see me is that I think you build such a rapport and, you know, by using, you know, body language. And I’ve done so many courses on interactions and communication that you can suss out when, when, when is the best time to sort of give them the information, right, so that they they don’t react in a bad way? Because if you if you don’t know them very well and you jump in and oh God, your sense lines off, that’s obviously not going to go down too well. But if you’ve listened to them and you know, they’re not interested in that and you can kind of gently explain that, well, this is slightly off of your mind, slightly off. And there are studies to show that it can be up to four millimetres off as long as it’s, you know, parallel to your face, it doesn’t really matter. And I think that that obviously is the way to go to go about it. But I feel like I’ve lost track of the the question that you asked in the first.

[00:34:22] Well, so the process, the patient journey, you said they start off with the TKO. Yeah, on the virtual console, the TCO pretty much works out your your sister in law. Sister, sister, yeah, works out pretty much what they need and whether they’ve got budget.

[00:34:39] Yeah, I mean, I mean, it’s not it’s not so much, yes. I mean, they are they usually come in asking for something, right? So they usually are saying, I want in Beslan and constant violence. I know, I know that’s what time does, right? And the benefit of having Lydia there is that she’s had in Beslan. She’s had composite bonding with me. She’s had, you know, wisdom teeth. She’s had an implant with me. So she’s pretty much a walking, talking advertisement for me. So it’s, you know, that has been amazing having her on board. But yeah, she’s she’s just making sure that they they they know what I’m about and what I’m trying to achieve. And, you know, I’m not doing turkey teeth. And if they want that, it’s best not to come and see me, you know?

[00:35:17] So look, you’ve done the one art you’ve done the one hour consult at this point. Have you already gone into at the end of that consult if you got into what the plan is going to be or the stabilisation phase of what have you done? What what’s the patient leaving with?

[00:35:32] Say what the patient is leaving after that appointment is we’ve discussed their scan. So a digital scan, we’ve discussed their x rays and when I say discuss them, I’m showing them the x rays I’m showing them. This is the right and this is the left. This is the top of the bottom. These are sort of areas of black bits that I’ll go into later. So I’m just trying to give them a little bit of information, but I’m certainly not treatment planning anything because again, that can get you into a tricky situation when you’ve you’ve thought you’ve seen the problem, you’ve you’ve diagnosed what you think of the problem. And then later, on reflection, you know, it was only part of a bigger problem that you’ve missed and trying to crawl back from that is never a good position to be in. So I’m really just trying to get them to know me, me, to know them, give them a little bit of information, talk about the scan like I said, and I just follow it up with a with a sort of written treatment plan. And then then they get a phone call from from Lydia to discuss any questions if they want to come back in to see me for a complimentary chat, they can do. But usually people are, are, you know, going going ahead and then the next time we’re seeing them is just sort of maybe start starting baseline or see them for a mock up, for example. So, yeah,

[00:36:44] So you don’t you don’t do that thing where you sort of stabilise with some simple treatment and then then go for a full mouth approach? Or is it mainly a line bleach bond

[00:36:55] On honesty pay? At the moment, the demographic of patients I’m seeing are ninety nine percent of them are Dental fit. They have dentists, they’ve been seeing them for Dental. Yet the younger, you know, the 20 to thirties, mostly female. And if obviously clearly if they have dental issues, I’m obviously telling them that they need to get this done before we start anything. And honestly, I’m pushing them to go back to the dentist to get it done purely because I just don’t have the time to see them. And, you know, I’ve moved away from general dentistry, to be honest, although I have a small list of kind of Harley Street patients that I do too see for their general care. I just I just love the energy of somebody coming in and actually wanting to see you and actually wanting to have treatment done. I’ve never had that same same response. When you’ve told someone that they need a root canal, you know, so I’m I like to enjoy my time at work. I like to be in a happy place. And yeah, that was kind of the reasons why I’ve moved away from doing general dentistry. But yeah, I mean, obviously, if they need any stabilisation and they want me to do it, then we would do that and then start start their treatment. But like I said, just at the moment, the the patients that I’m seeing identity fit and they and they are just really in need of of cosmetic treatment.

[00:38:15] I mean, it’s nice to see on your page to the smiles are very natural and and I suppose it’s really nice to have a patient come to you and say, I’ve come to you because of how natural the smiles look on on your page. It’s the you started off on the right foot, haven’t you? Definitely. And when I think back to the days when I was a dentist and the number of times I used to after we used to have a 40 minute examination and I’d attempt to have the treatment plan written up at the end of that 40 minutes with very, you know, nowhere near your level of knowledge, I’m sure. And you know, it’s strange, isn’t it? Because most practise that’s what’s happening like ninety five percent ninety nine percent of dentists are having to treatment plan on the run on the go. Write all the notes, all of that stuff to happen at the same time, and you’re never going to be able to present to the patient properly in that most people don’t get 40 minutes either, right? Twenty. How how do you fit the sort of how do you square the circle of these Instagram align bleach blonde patients with physical work? And do you do? You know, you’re not. You’re not. You haven’t got access to those implant patients yet. Is that right?

[00:39:33] So, so what do you mean, am I am I doing implants on her patients?

[00:39:37] No, I mean, you know, you’ve got some implant skills. Yeah, are you? Are you able to use them?

[00:39:43] Use it? Definitely. So I mean,

[00:39:44] Is he doing a line bleach blonde?

[00:39:46] So I spend I spend three, three days doing that and I spend one day with Priscilla. So, you know, we’re literally doing block graft sinus lifts. You know, we’re doing x plants, full arches, you know, soft tissue grafting like it is. It’s very it’s a very different, very different day. And that’s why I love it so much. And I do think to myself, Gosh, I have a set of skills here that I’m not really using to their full advantage right now, but I just think, well, I’m actually pretty happy. Like right now, I’m pretty happy doing what I’m doing, and I think we can be so obsessed with always being better and doing doing new things and actually to be content. Right now, I’m just I’m actually just really, really happy in my, in my, you know, current situation. I almost just want to enjoy it for a little bit longer until I sort of start rocking the boat again and going on and going on a different direction. But no, I mean, I think the implant side of my of my work is maybe more the future, but who knows, you know, composite bonding is very much a I don’t know. I feel like it’s not so much a fad because I think it’s here to stay like it really is for me, the best course of treatment for a lot of patients who are thinking about cosmetics. And clearly, you know, having veneers done is is always an option that’s presented to them. But because they are young people, I don’t I don’t want to be cutting down teeth. So, you know, for me, the composite is the route to go down. But I think, you know, implants is just becoming more and more popular. Less and less people want to have removable denture and you know, more and more people are keeping a lot of their teeth. So it’s just the, you know, the a few units missing and implants are obviously the right, the right option for that for a lot of people.

[00:41:41] Of your top tips for Invisalign?

[00:41:43] Well, I I think you’ve got to set yourself a target, right? So if you if you love doing Invisalign and you’re not maybe doing very much at the moment, my wife and I set myself a target and I wanted to do one hundred cases in a year, and I think I ended up doing about one hundred and fifty and it was just, you know, having that target in my head, right? What do we need to do? We need to do a bit more marketing. We’ll get the patients in to change our workflow, you know, adjust the prices, you know, or I always include sort of whitening, for example, with them, with the cases. And so I think just having a target for how many cases you want to do. The other thing is obviously your clinic. So I know a lot of people, a lot of colleagues outsource their clean checks. I still do all of mine. I actually enjoy doing it number one. And I also feel like it helps you massively because when you see things don’t go quite to plan like you’re almost in a better position to work out why and don’t trust the clinic that you get back. I think 70 percent of clinics are just approved on the first run. And, you know, really they I’ve never come across a clinic that’s adequate to be approved when it’s just come back.

[00:42:53] Well, where did you get the skills to to sort of figure out the clinic side?

[00:42:57] So I learn very much by by just trying and doing it. Yeah, and I’m 11 years qualified. I think I’ve been doing Invisalign for probably seven years now, so I definitely have made mistakes. And I think you can be so lulled into trying to get the patient to go ahead that you get this clinic back and you tell the patient, Look at this, this is this is amazing. You know where we’ve got to we’ve we had a bilateral cross. Buy it and now it’s fixed and you just think and I’ve started cases where I have genuinely thought that that was going to be sorted. So I think doing it and making the mistakes, but I did a year long orthodontic course actually called KEF Tactics an awesome and awesome orthodontist called Raj runs it. And that tactic? Theft tactics? Yeah, tactics is really good. And again, if anybody is listening to this and they’re interested in an ortho course, that is, in my opinion and one of the better ones, because it’s not just about aligners, it’s about fixed braces. You know, you’re learning to do fixed braces, but it just actually gave me a such a good understanding of of biology and anchorage and the reality of what movements are difficult. And, you know, sometimes it’s impossible to get a tooth where you want it to get to. If you’re just going to be using a line as a loan and the ability to use sectional fixed braces or use pads and things, those are now what I’m incorporate into my Invisalign treatment. So. Oh, nice. Yeah, it is good. And I signed up to an online thing. It’s called Master Aligner Academy. And again, that’s run by these two Portuguese Invisalign dentists, and it’s just it’s just wicked. You get so much information, it’s really reasonably priced. I think it’s about 80 euros a month and you get like a lecture every month and run through clinics. And yeah, it’s just it’s just a nice, nice group to be a part of. I think there’s like almost a thousand dentists worldwide now on that on that group.

[00:44:57] But I’m interested in what you’re saying because in my day when I was a dentist, I was doing some Invisalign. I was, I was. I took over my wife’s list of patients when when she was pregnant with our kids. And by far the most stressful bit was the clinic part. Mm-hmm. And back then, it didn’t exist to outsource your clinic. But if it did, I definitely would look at that because I was pretty much either accepting the clinic or having to go to someone who understood what they were talking about to see whether it was the right thing or not. And I guess that is outsourcing, isn’t it? Yeah. But but obviously I hadn’t done the education, and I think back then we used to think you can go on a two day course and start, you know, and there kind of was like that, you know, you’d go on. I think with one day course, they’d essentially show you how to use the platform. Not much ortho in that one day and then you just start and you’d make your mistakes. And that’s that’s where it was. But I did come across people who really enjoy that side of it, so it’s interesting. What about bonding? What what education have you had for there?

[00:46:10] So I I did a GC course out in Belgium. Belgium. Yeah, I was. I was in Spain, so it must have been. It could have been nine years ago, and it was like an anterior posterior two day thing. I went with my mum and my sister, actually. Quite honestly, I drank far too much beer. And the second day of learning maybe wasn’t quite as effective as it could have been, but I did that. And then, you know, I haven’t made I I know I’ve done hundreds. If not, I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe up to 1000 cases of bonding. And you just think, you know, by doing so many cases, you’re going to you’re going to learn. And obviously, you take tips from very eminent dentist, obviously like Monique. I’ve got good friends who I always always ask questions about, you know, tips and tricks, but I just learnt by doing it. I don’t use anything fancy. I literally just use clear matrix strips, and most of my cases are just free hand. I’m always doing a free hand mock up beforehand, so that again gives me a good insight into what the patient’s expecting. It gives me an idea of the phonetic appearance are lots of photographs, et cetera. So yeah, and just use and press direct as my is my go to composite. It’s yeah, it’s just it’s just a lot, a lot, a lot of bonding units. And what do you use for polishing? I use various things. I use soft like sticks this for shaping. I use the ASUP polishes there. They’re pretty decent. Most silicone spiral as a decent and

[00:47:53] They’re all made in one place, but

[00:47:55] I’m sure they are made.

[00:47:57] There’s a patent, there’s a patent on it. There’s a patent on it, right? Yeah. So and a paste as well. Look, no with any that there is no patent.

[00:48:05] Yeah, there isn’t really a piece. I mean, the the there’s a there’s a brushed by kick, which I use before the polishers. Rubber wheels for me is what I tend to use and different sort of gradients of that. And then usually just finish it off with one of the ACEP polishes to

[00:48:26] Use that thing, that that overclocked instrument with the why the what they call

[00:48:31] That? Do you use that? Yeah, I mean, that is my my bread and butter. I’ve just run out of the smaller size and I’m trying to use this like five millimetre or six millimetre pad. And it’s just like my thumb basically trying to put this composite on a teeth. So it’s funny how you become so used to what you’re using. I use I use this awesome instrument called an Acro Flex. I’m giving away all my tips now. It’s like this really, really flexible ended instrument. The the nurses have a great habit of breaking, so I usually have two or three in my drawer, a very thin plastic. It’s it’s like unbelievably thin and it’s super flexible.

[00:49:09] Yeah, we have one called IPCA PKL that gets broken at lot.

[00:49:12] So I’ve used that. But this things are even more flexible than that. And it’s yeah, once you start using it, like, I just can’t not now use it. But yeah, once once it comes back from the Dickon with one end instead of two and you’re looking at nursing nurse,

[00:49:28] Is this who’s the manufacturer of that?

[00:49:30] And it’s. Really, actually, you really. Oh, is it? Yeah.

[00:49:36] Crow flicks I’ve never come across,

[00:49:37] They’re always on back or on on on Dental directory, so I don’t want people to be buying it now because I think I’m the only one that buys them.

[00:49:47] I want to move on to darker days. Yeah. Well, what’s been the darkest days dentist?

[00:49:53] And well, I’m generally a pretty happy guy, right? So I try and see the the good and most things, and I try and try and be positive about stuff. I mean, there have been situations clinically where it’s been. It’s been sort of, you know, touch and go bump clenching moments where I did an implant and a patient on a Saturday morning and everything was fine. It was a lower lower five seven. Yeah, I sort of submerge them close the flap. Bleeding stopped. She had been, you know, she was taking warfarin. So we left her in the clinic for a while. No bleeding corner of the afternoon. Absolutely fine Sunday. She she messaged, saying that it’s bleeding a little bit so of gave her advice throughout the day. She said, No, it’s fine. It’s fine. I went to bed, woke up in the morning on Monday to a barrage of texts being like, It’s bleeding a lot. What do I do? You know, when you wake up to these texts and you think, Oh, right, so Corder didn’t pick up, called a house phone, didn’t pick her up, and I was thinking, I mean, you know, obviously you’re thinking very much the worst. Eventually, she’d call me back. She’s like, No, I’m, you know, it has been doing a lot all night. Can I come and see you? So I got her straight in and she had this huge haematoma in her mouth.

[00:51:08] And I just, you know, obviously she’s looking, you know, you can see something at the corner of your eye looking at you and you’re trying to keep this super calm, cool face thinking everything is absolutely fine inside. You are literally breaking it. So I just removed like the blood clot, stuck a of gauze and there put a load of anaesthetic in and just and I obviously had a full day. Patients bear in mind and I just got to sit in the waiting room. Luckily, at the time, there was a separate waiting room she could sit in and I actually called for and I just said, Look, I’ve got this patient. She she’s bleeding a bit. She sort of said, Look, you’re doing all the right things. But ultimately, if you need me to see her, just get her in a cab and send her to my practise and I’ll take care of it for you. And I don’t know how many dentists would just be like that. You know, it’s it’s unbelievable the way that she can be. And I think that from that moment I thought, Well, actually, so I’ve got I’ve got a everything’s going to be in a way like, I’m not having to go to any of this patient. I’ve got like, I’ve got a solution. And and luckily, the bleeding had just slowly stopped, but the patient left at like three p.m. in the afternoon. And in hindsight, I should have got some tranexamic acid mouthwash.

[00:52:17] And, you know, those sort of things that, yes, we talked about it and I thought about it. And in hindsight, you know, I made the wrong call by not not getting it in, but whether it would have helped or not. Who knows? But that was that was pretty, pretty tough. And you know what was really weird? I’m not a I’m not a sort of particularly religious guy. My I grew up, my parents were very religious. I went to church every Sunday. I used to carry the cross in the church service and all that. But it was that day where my dad for some reason had gone on a survey of somebody’s house who was a sort of a sort of psychic kind of lady, right? A clairvoyant. And she I don’t know why, but they got into a conversation, and I think my dad was talking about his dad, who was a dentist, and she said, No, I can feel his presence in the room and I can feel that he’s he’s there with your son and he’s just looking out for him and pay. I’m not joking, mate. Like, I hadn’t talked to my dad at this point, and I called him that day and he said, Tom, you know, that is that’s weird. Like, so that was that was that was a weird ending to that day as well.

[00:53:28] But you were religious. Yeah, but tell me, look at that something in a way out of your control. What happened there?

[00:53:34] Yes, I think it was because there was, you know, looking back, there was nothing else, you know, I got nothing,

[00:53:40] Nothing you could have really done

[00:53:41] Differently. No, I mean, exactly. It wasn’t like I sort of loaded it or put any abutments on it. You know, the flap just went back like there was no there was no tension under the flap. I think I think it just,

[00:53:51] You know, give me an example of something where it went wrong for you. You know, insomuch as the way you handled it made it go wrong.

[00:53:58] That was my fault. And I think, I think just over promising to patients wanting them to accept the treatment plan and

[00:54:07] The early days, right in the early days when you haven’t got much work. Absolutely. There’s pressure to do that completely.

[00:54:12] And you know, you see this big ticket treatment plan. You get all excited and you just look back and you think, you know what? What on earth was doing? Like, I wasn’t chasing the money, but I wasn’t. I wasn’t treatment planning it correctly. And, you know, at that time, based on the knowledge that I had, it was in my head the right thing to do. I’ve never, ever, ever, ever. Sold a treatment to a patient that they didn’t need, right? So, you know, but you look back and you think, you know, I think it was a, I guess, a seven unit bridge with, you know, like a double abutments and you just think, Oh, God, like at some point that’s going to fail quite badly. But you know, what can you do? Like it was in my head the right thing, the right thing to do at that time.

[00:54:55] I think the conversation needs to be heard, you know, that I’ve been there. Young, young, private dentist with my book not full. And at the time, we were doing a lot of veneers posting videos and and it was pretty. It was pretty girl sort of where you know how it’s going to look and you’ve got the guy to show you how much enamel to remove, to stay in and out and all pre all of that. Yeah, and over enthusiastically selling it to a patient and then living to regret that, right? Living to regret how. And the strange thing is, as you get more experience, you realise sort of the less you push, the more acceptance you get.

[00:55:35] Absolutely. Well, I think the patients, yeah, yeah, completely. I think the patient is going to feel it. And they and obviously, you know, it comes it comes across that you’re, you know, you need to work. Yeah, like literally like, you know, without sanding. It’s not we’re not sounding arrogant. Like sometimes I don’t I don’t need the work. So I’m always saying to them, you know, like people have come in and asking me for four Invisalign and bonding. And actually, I’ve just said, look, just just have some teeth whitening and just just see how you feel. Your teeth are actually very nice. So, you know, in my younger days, I probably wouldn’t have done that. Know I would have I would have gone with what they wanted, right? And if they wanted veneers, I would’ve said, Yeah, let’s let’s do it like, I’m doing what the patient wants and I’m doing the right thing. But you know, now now it’s it’s it’s obviously through experience. You you’ve still got to do what you feel is right. It’s not. It’s not what the patient wants. Well, I’ll rephrase that. Patients don’t always know what they want. They they think they do, and they come in asking for something. And you know, it’s your job to actually educate them and actually show them that really, what they’re asking for is not going to look right because you don’t want to start a treatment where inside something’s telling you all,

[00:56:51] You

[00:56:51] Know. You know, you always want to have total confidence in what you’re doing from the very start, because again, from experience, the cases that I can think of where I’ve done what the patient wanted and actually it didn’t look right. And I knew from the start it wasn’t going to look right, but I always wanted to do it for them, for them to say, Oh no, you were right. You know, then the then the realisation hits that I’ve got a now, sort it out. And you know, it took me three times as long and I’m sure I didn’t charge the patient and I thought, why did I do that again to prove a point? So, so now it’s very much, you know, I hear what you’re saying, I’m listening to what you want. I’m trying to actually really understand what it is you want, not what you think you want. And then trying to present a treatment plan to the patient that’s, you know, hopefully meeting their their real needs. That’s that’s that’s the plan anyway.

[00:57:49] Well, I think what you said earlier about being content with where you are and enjoying it, it’s it’s actually a beautiful thing. I mean, what our goal is there than being happy, right? But what do you see for the future? Do you you see you staying in this sort of one room situation? Or do you see yourself scaling bottling TCC up and and and kind of scaling into bigger ideas?

[00:58:17] Yeah, I mean, I think there’s I always have these conversations with myself and, you know, have lots of ideas. And I suppose there’s a few different paths that lie ahead of me. And right now, I’m very much at that crossroads and I don’t know which which which path I’m going to be taking. Of course I’d love to. I’d love to do what Fossella has done for me, for other dentists, you know, to have that opportunity to rent a room and almost, you know, build your own sort of mini practise, but without all the extra stresses. You know, that’s been remarkable. And you know, I’ll thank her every day for it. So for me to do that to somebody else or other people, that would that would be nice. I would obviously love to have a passive income and own a practise and have associates. And you know, it’s it’s hard when you’ve you’re the breadwinner and you’ve got a house and two kids and you want to take a holiday. But actually the the cost of the holiday, plus the cost of still renting the room when I’m not there, you know, you just think, gosh, like it turns out to be quite expensive. So to have a little bit of, yeah, some associates working for you, of course, that would be lovely. But I have a lot of friends who in practises and the grass is always greener. So, you know, it’s it’s yeah, it’s a strange I’m in a strange place. I’m thirty thirty four, thirty five and I feel like I’ve I’ve got this far and I’m almost now ending this first chapter. And it’s very much about where where DCC is going on, going on from here. And honestly, I don’t I don’t really know the answer, but hopefully, hopefully next year I’ll have a better idea.

[00:59:55] Yeah. So look for four month old baby is going to do that to you, thirsty, you know, because no sleepless nights and worries. And you know, my brother just had a kid and it’s just reminded me of all the things you worry about with a kid. Yeah. And I know you’re not the type to beat yourself up about it. So don’t, but don’t beat yourself up about it. It’s nothing. On the other hand, you’ll be amazed how quickly thirty four turns to 50, like really quickly, much quicker than 20 turns to thirty four somehow. I know it’s a cliche, but it’s real. And you know you’re the kind of guy who, you know, you’re very personable and that for me, the number one skill of a business owner is communicating with your people, you know, with your weather, whether it’s your people or your customers, you’re in your case, your patience, but communication. And definitely you’ve got communication down. You’re likeable kind of person. Do you remember a time where you weren’t as confident?

[01:00:58] Oh, god, yeah. I mean, do you know what? I remember my very first CD conference. It was in Edinburgh. I think it must have been six years ago and obviously through, you know, Simon at the time had been quite heavily involved and he was like, you know, come along. It’s a great conference. And you know, now the backdrop is now

[01:01:17] You’re on the board of it, right? You’re one of the committees

[01:01:19] On the committees, and I’m probably going to be applying for the board next year. Yeah, and and and the very first course I went to and I had all this expectation and I turned up. I didn’t really know anybody. And I think because of my I look back now and I think because of my attitude, you know, I I’m quite shy in certain situations and I wasn’t approaching people. I wasn’t talking to people, but I saw it as, Oh, these people aren’t talking to me. They’re all very cliquey. They’re not, you know, they don’t, you know, yeah, it was very much me, but I at the time was not seeing it that way. So I suppose, yeah, there was definitely a time in my life where I didn’t have that confidence to just to go and speak to people, really. And, you know, just just just through getting to know them, you actually realise that everybody there is very much of the same mind. I mean, obviously you’ve been for many years. So you know, you know, right there, excellent dentist want the same thing for the patients and all like a good beer at the end of the day. So it’s a win win.

[01:02:22] It’s a funny one BCD, because as you’d expect, for someone like me to be not into it because no one’s really there to shop, no one’s really there to buy things. Yeah, so you know, it ends up, you know, some often costing, you know, a lot, a lot of exhibitions, you know, you get a return on. Usually I do, and yet keep keep going back to it. It’s it’s almost like friends, you know, seeing friends again, it’s a little family. It’s a nice little family, and obviously, you know, you don’t look at everything as Roy, right? It’s not like every every activity you do has to bring in a certain number of dollars, otherwise it’s not a worthwhile activity. Know, I love Becky and it’s nice. This time was lovely, wasn’t it, this time going back?

[01:03:08] It was. So it was after lockdown.

[01:03:11] It was always like people wanted some sort of event.

[01:03:14] There were some pent up energy there, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, this is interesting about your your return on investment, actually, because just going back to the earlier question about, you know, working with influencers, you know, actually there are certain ones that you would work with knowing that you’re not going to get real any return on investment. But actually, it’s just good to have that exposure and just a good to have that person on on your page. So I suppose a little bit like, you know, at the back, you know, you’re not really going to be, you know, you might be losing money, but you’re still getting that exposure and you’re still associating yourself with what I still think is like an amazing it’s about.

[01:03:54] It’s about a conversation sometimes, you know? Absolutely. I mean, in a way, look, we had dinner at Bakhtaoui together. Yeah. And now now here we are. You know, you probably wouldn’t have been on this as as early if we hadn’t had that dinner, you know, you know, simple thing like that.

[01:04:11] Yeah, but that’s just dentistry. Do you not think Dental dentistry is such a small world? And again, any advice to a young dentist out there is that, you know, you think that you’re going to be in a mutually exclusive event, but you never know how long it would take. But some, you know, a lot of the time things will always come back and somebody will know somebody or, you know, there’s always this repercussions of of of anything in dentistry. So it’s just just being aware of that good a good things and bad things, obviously. But it’s just it’s just a small world, you know, like you’ll bump into people some somewhere random and you think what? You know, it’s like my, my, my, my mum. You know, Simon’s mum and my mum were at the same uni together a year apart. And you just think, Well, yeah, I mean, that’s weird. But they didn’t know each other if they didn’t know each other. So anyway,

[01:05:07] No, but you’re right, I was having coffee with Rupert Monkhouse. We both live in Fulham. Yeah, and he he said, Oh, I mentioned you were going to come on. And he was like, Oh, I used to work in that practise the practise. Yeah. It’s just such a small business.

[01:05:24] And what’s funny is that, you know, there’s like, what, forty thousand dentists in the UK. But yeah, it’s the people that you actually want to associate with. There’s probably only 1000 thousand right or less than and actually all those people are all part of the same societies. They all go to the same things. They all do similar things. So actually, you think that you’re part of this forty plus thousand community, but in reality, you probably are in a much smaller circle than you realise. And that’s probably why you end up bumping into people that know you or know of you a lot more than you think.

[01:06:00] Yeah, it’s you know, there’s I don’t know if I’d go as far as to say the people I want to to mix with. But but I would say that there’s I’d say out of the 40000, there’s twenty thousand who don’t want to talk about dentistry outside of their day job, for sure. You know, that’s that’s definitely true. You know, I think about sometimes with my year people in my ear. The same ones turn up to all the events, you know, showcase or be a CD or, you know, it’s just a measure of my year who was like thirty six people, the same six people are the ones I see all the time at Dental things. And so you know that conundrum and I think for you at your stage in your career, you’re just at that inflexion point. Yeah, of is it something that you love and you’re going to just get better at it all the time and enjoy more and more and more? Or is it something you start stop loving so much and start wanting to get out of starts around the beginning of the end? You know, you’re both at the end of the beginning and at the beginning of the end, in a weird way.

[01:07:13] You know,

[01:07:14] It’s back breaking work in the end, right? There’s some of that. For me, the thing about the worst thing about dentistry is showing up. Yeah, you know, you’ve got to be there to actually do the work. But then there’s so many plus sides to it. And when I went back to it, I really appreciated the plus side. You know, the talking to people that however much we complain, the relatively easy cash. Yeah, you know, don’t hurt people and and you’re pretty much be OK. Be nice. I didn’t have when I was a dentist, I didn’t have the whole GDC hassle. How much does that bear on you?

[01:07:52] Massively. I mean, I pretty much walk past the GDC office every day on the way to as a reminder that, you know, don’t mess up to date on. And I mean, it’s I think it’s there in every, every dentist head, especially younger dentists. You know, what are the stats you’re you know, you’re you’re likely to get sued twice right now. That’s sort of the the statistics, which is awful when a lot of people are just they’re trying to do the best thing for the patient. And I think a lot of complaints probably come down to a lack of communication, which, you know, is why that is a big part of my of my kind of workflow and my ethos. But yeah, it’s always it’s always in the back of your head that a patient, the patient has so much power that they can just change their opinion, change their mind. And somehow it’s now it’s your fault that they’ve changed their mind. But now you’ve got to deal with it. And if you don’t deal with it in the right way? Well, I can just quite simply go to any kind of, you know what,

[01:08:57] Google bad Dental.

[01:08:59] Exactly. And then and then you know, your career is in jeopardy and you’re faced with a seriously stressful time when it wasn’t sometimes even justified. It’s obviously there. And I think,

[01:09:11] You know, one of us did. The cosmetic dentistry tends to come with this, right? I mean, it’s it’s a funny combination because cosmetic dentistry has a big, subjective element to it. I like it or I don’t like it. Yeah. And yet when you’re in this in this sort of framework of a patient can ruin your career. Mm hmm. It’s weird because someone could come and have 20 veneers done. Agree to everything, sign off on everything, and then at the end of it, say, I don’t like it. Yeah, and and then they’re very likely to get their money back. Very likely.

[01:09:47] Oh, pay. I mean, I’ve you know, of course you’ve I’ve been in situations like that where again, you look back and you think, what could I have done differently? But you know, the sad thing is you’re just going to refund the patient because it’s the easiest way out and it’s just not worth the hassle sometimes. So I wish I had bigger balls and just thought, Well, actually, you know, if I if I truly am not in the wrong gear, I’m not thinking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I just I’m just not not there at that stage. I think, yeah, that’s not me. I just I try and please people. And if for some reason they are unhappy, I mean, look, it doesn’t happen very often. I’m very fortunate. But the very rare occasion, I’ll just say, look, it’s fine. Just, you know, have your money back. It’s not. It’s not an issue.

[01:10:35] If you if you go on to open a practise or a chain of practise or whatever, what kind of boss do you think you’ll be? Do you think you’ll be the sort of the hard type or the too soft type? I think you’re going to be a softy, right?

[01:10:47] Do you think I’m a hard type of guy? I’m really not. I mean, I will. I would very much be the soft type, and I suppose that’s the worry. I almost need like a dragon practise manager.

[01:11:02] Carrot stick to you, Kyra. It doesn’t mean, you know, it doesn’t mean you can’t do it, dude. I’ve got I’ve got a partner who takes care of that side of things in enlighten. Okay. If you’d left it up to me, I’d just say yes to everything. Sure. That’s that’s my problem. I literally say yes to whatever the question is. My answer is yes.

[01:11:23] The staff sometimes do the same. It’s it’s a funny way of life, though, but you know, just just just actually just saying yes to things generally opens doors. And, you know, if you say no, if you say no, then you’re probably a bit more reserved and you’re a bit, you know, probably quite careful. You’re sort of worried about the consequences. So it’s it’s easy to say no, but to say yes, this is a fun, fun journey. It’s just like, Yeah, sure. And I obviously has got me in sticky situations, both in a in a work and a personal personal life. But, you know, I think if deep down the intentions were good, then then nothing too bad is going to happen, right? So if you didn’t mean any harm, then it probably would be OK.

[01:12:10] I’m going to ask you a hypothetical question because I know there’s no such thing as a day off for Tom right now. Yeah, but if there was if you had a day to yourself to do whatever the hell you wanted, yeah.

[01:12:22] What would you do? What would I do? And I definitely play some golf. Yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, trying to fit in golf with with two young children. My wife is brilliant. Yeah, well, you know, was really funny. Last year she brought me. I’ve been playing golf for 20 years and I can’t get my handicap under like 20, right? So she bought me these these six golf lessons with a golf pro in a club nearby. And let’s see on my birthday, like a month before our second daughter was supposed to be born. And I said to her, that’s seriously generous, number one. But also you do realise that for six Fridays, for two hours, I’m out like, you know, playing golf. And I think the reality hadn’t kind of set in. So every time I went on my lesson, I felt so guilty. But yeah, I think I think if I had a day off and there were no there was no children to look after and my wife was off having a nice day herself. I definitely have a round of golf in with a few friends and probably my dad. And then I’d probably be hitting hitting a sort of party in the evening and and waking up at, well, get to bed at 6:00 a.m. That’s probably my perfect day.

[01:13:34] Your closest buddies, still your school friends.

[01:13:37] Or you know what? It’s really sad. Like, I don’t I don’t speak to any of my of my schoolmates. Probably a combination of reasons. I went to different university. They all went north. I went south. And yeah, it just it just somehow lost touch of trying to got back in touch with some of them live with a few recently, but it’s all kind of petered out. So all my friends are uni mates, actually, all from Bristol. There’s seven guys me included in a sort of fairly tight group of friends, and we try and meet up four times a year. We’ve all got families and it’s hard to get seven people’s diaries to align for four times in a year, which is crazy, really. But we try and get a weekend and we vote in a president and so sort of social social secretary each year to organise the events. But it’s good fun. Yeah.

[01:14:30] I’m going to close it with some of Prav questions, sure. Running a deathbed. Yeah. Because the nearest and dearest around you. One of three bits of advice that you’d leave them and the world

[01:14:45] Fairly morbid, especially at Christmas time, this bait. I mean, yeah. And I suppose. So to be content and to have followed your dreams, I think that is so undervalued. I’ve come across so many successful dentists. Well, I mean, a lot of dentists in the world that I live in, but a lot of people, you just think God. You are from the outside, you’re so successful, but they’re still chasing something that you just think, God, I wish, I wish I could be in your shoes and actually just think, Gee, what? I’m really, really happy with where I’ve got, so I think that is that’s quite important.

[01:15:25] Think that the tension between contentment and striving, we’ve got that sort of in society. We’ve got those two things in tension. And we like almost like being content. It’s almost like failing completely.

[01:15:37] Yeah, that’s so true.

[01:15:39] And it’s it’s a shame, isn’t it? Because like I said before, that must be the most important thing to be happy, right?

[01:15:45] Absolutely. I mean, you know, we we all suffer with a bit of mental health issues, and I think now, you know, people are talking about it and it’s a real common problem. And I think people, especially with social media and I think this is one of the reasons why I try and stay clear of it, because even when I go on social media and I’ve gained down my, you know, my news feed, I’m comparing myself to these people and I’m thinking, Oh what? I don’t have that car or I’m not on holiday. And I think just for me, it’s just better just to stay clear of it. But yeah, I think it’s something that we all need to try and work on to be content and happy.

[01:16:25] It’s definitely the number one be content.

[01:16:27] Yeah, I’d have to say that I think trying things once is a good thing, you know, experience life to its fullness. I think we are on this planet for maybe no reason at all. Maybe we’re just evolved from a simple bacteria or an organism and and there is no greater being. But you know, it’s it’s it’s pretty cool to be to be here and there are so many things to enjoy, and I think you just got to try and enjoy everything you can possibly enjoy. And I suppose don’t don’t stress over the little things and just, you know, be be the person you want to be. I think that that would be my my my leaving comment. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:17:08] What’s? But I’d say that’s one. So that’s two you’ve given me,

[01:17:15] I gave you quite a few.

[01:17:18] No, no, that’s the, you know, try stuff. I guess it’s different to be the person you want to be.

[01:17:23] Yeah, I’ll go for one more. Okay. Well, just just actually be honest and have integrity. And yeah, just just go out and start the days as you as you want. And I love the film. It’s called About Time, and it’s about this family that have the ability to travel back in time. But when there are major points in their life, like a child is born, they can’t travel back before that because when they come back to the present day, the child could be different, right? And I always watched it. I always leave that thinking, Yeah, actually, just just be just be true to yourself. And yeah, be honest. So that’s that has to be three.

[01:18:04] Yeah. Yeah, that’s three. And what about I mean, I think we asked you at BCD and we’ve got Henry the eighth as one of the guests that came out on the final video. But the fancy dinner party, three guests that are alive, Henry VIII

[01:18:18] Got

[01:18:19] Your reason. Just cracked me up. What was the reason? Because I’ve never, never really chatted to him before.

[01:18:27] I’m not sure about it. I’m not sure if I’d slept that much that night. And you took. Yeah, I mean, I still I still I still would have Henry the eighth. And yeah,

[01:18:37] Yeah, no. That was one of the best answers.

[01:18:39] You know what the thing is, right? The only picture these give Henry the eighth is a is a book, and I’d love to, you know what he looked like in real life and and

[01:18:51] How was you never see him sipping a gin and tonic?

[01:18:58] So obviously living, you know, very close to Hampton Court Palace, you just think, yeah, I mean, how amazing it would be to meet Henry the eighth and actually really understand what it would or what it’s like to live back then. So I’m still saying that he’s coming if he can make it amazing. So Wolf of Wall Street film The Guy after Jordan Belfort, he would actually be quite quite an interesting character.

[01:19:21] I bet he’s got a few stories to tell you to actually

[01:19:24] Find out how much of that, how much of that film is true. I did. Did they actually? Yeah, he does.

[01:19:32] He does. He does a podcast, I think.

[01:19:34] I think he does. Yeah, I think he does listen to Jordan Belfort. Who else? I mean, I buy a lot of clothes from suit supply. And so the founder of Suits apply. I think his name is it’s like some sort of Scandinavian name for Bulk de Jong or something. And so I think he would be quite fun because to actually just work, you know, ask him some, some some sort

[01:20:04] Businessman you admire. Is that what it is like?

[01:20:06] How he did it? Absolutely. How he did it, where it came from, because it just it just seemed to kind of expand massively. And they’ve got shops popping up everywhere and all the clothes that it just really, really great. Like, they fit well and they look great. And yeah, so it’s out to have a chat with him. It would be interesting.

[01:20:25] Yeah. When you’re six foot two or whatever, everything fits well and looks like, how tall are you?

[01:20:33] Yeah. Six, six two. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:20:36] Yeah, yeah. If you got any problems with stuff looking good in fitting, well, anyway, that movie to have you, man. Thanks, man. And it was it was a good laugh, actually.

[01:20:49] Yeah, it’s good fun

[01:20:50] And see you soon and

[01:20:53] We will. Thanks, Pete. Take it easy, mate. All right, buddy. Bye bye.

[01:20:58] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:21:14] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

[01:21:29] If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:21:39] And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] There’s quite a few things that you need to consider when an offer is made for your business, and there’s a lot of due diligence in that process, you know? What does the offer look like? How much cash are you going to get on completion? What does your earnout period look like? Have you spoken to previous people that that corporate has bought or partnered with? And what’s their experience been like in terms of getting there now out? For example, was there any price chipping along the way in the negotiations? What did they look like? Speaks to an interview the lawyers and asked them what it’s been like dealing with buyer, a baby buyer? S. How did the deals usually go? Are they usually quick? And then, you know, how does the deal turn out in terms of the in terms of the year now? Are there any growth shares? You know what happens if you overperform for that business and in four years time you’ve increased their rear bit by a hundred K or 200 K? Is there any upside for you? There’s so many different things in the way in which all the offers end up on the table. They’re slightly different in many ways, and you just need to sit back and absorb what has been offered on the table and what every single element means.

[00:01:17] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:34] Well, we’re coming to the end of twenty twenty one and I thought we’d have a little run through the year and look at what we’re looking at for next year. And it’s lovely to have Prav back on the show. Hey, Prav.

[00:01:47] Hey, buddy. Yeah, I’m good. I’m a good. I’m good.

[00:01:52] I’ve had quite a lot of listeners ask me, you know, West Prav. So where have you been, buddy? Do you want to explain to the audience where you’ve been all this time or? Yeah.

[00:02:03] So I crawled into a hole, right? And I’m just coming back out of it now. And, shall we say, over the last sort of three or four months, you know, I think I think let’s go back to the beginning of the podcast, right when we set up Dental Leaders Me and pay, we made a promise to each other that we were going to launch an episode every single week. I remember when we kicked off and I said one a month and they said, No, no, no. He he negotiated and he said one every two weeks. And then he said, Listen, buddy, we’ve recorded 20. Let’s just do one a week. Let’s just do one a week. And then and then the momentum we picked up the momentum. We have lots of listeners that get in touch with us who look forward to listening to this on their morning commute, their run when they’re exercising, whatever. So we promised we would not let the weekly sort of rhythm disappear. But, you know, I’ve had a project on that I’ve been working on and I’ve had to take some time out from the podcast. And this is where teamwork comes in, right? And and Payman has been there to, you know, do a lot of the interviews in my absence and then even me when my schedule’s allowed me to.

[00:03:10] You’ve probably noticed I’ve done the odd solo episode. I’ve interviewed a guest here or there without a. Now we’re back as the dynamic duo. So where have I been the last three months? I’ve been deep within due diligence in the process of exiting from my group of practises. So that’s probably been the most stressful and intensive three months of my working career. And there was a lot of preparation leading up to it and during the whole process, and I’m happy to answer any questions around that. But I had to step back from some of my duties and the podcast was one of them I had to focus on. Obviously, my agency, the fresh, my work with the Ace Academy and then the exits as well. And it has been like doing three or four full time jobs, burning the candle at both ends. Fitness goes outside out of the window, family life went on hold for a bit and I had to park that and we’re out of the other side.

[00:04:11] So, you know, it was a surprise to me how involved the processes of selling a practise by talking to you and all the conversations we’ve had in this period. But, you know, I’m quite interested to know, is it is it that this was a, you know, first of all, a complicated deal in that you had three practises and so forth? Is it that you’re one of these all or nothing kind of people and you are? This is true, but you jump into stuff and when you get into something, you fully get into that thing because I just can’t imagine that most dentists, when they come to sell their practise, have had to devote the amount of time that you’ve had to to this, you know, is it that you’re a perfectionist and is the process much more complicated than most people realise?

[00:04:59] Hey, this could have been done in several ways, right? And you’re right, I am a perfectionist and I need to know every single detail. Yeah, right down to every single line item in the zero accounts, right down to the process, right down to interviewing the lawyers that we were going to choose to move forward with. Reviewing every line in the heads of terms, reviewing every item in the lease, right? I am one of those individuals who has to absolutely understand everything. There are some people who sell the practise and they will just go through the motions. They will accept things. There’s things that will go over their heads. And it’s a bit like when I speak to some of my clients that I’m coaching, they don’t know how to read a profit and loss statement. They don’t know how to read a balance sheet. They don’t know. They don’t understand their end of year, but they just didn’t trust in their accountant and just sign the sign the thing at the end of the year, I need to understand and know every single detail and the process and journey that I went through. I wanted to document it. I wanted to make sure that everything was incredibly thorough. And let me tell you, when you actually sit back and and say to yourself, Right, you’ve been building this baby, and let’s not be, let’s not beat around this bush, right? This is a group of practises that I bought into four or five years ago.

[00:06:15] Ok, well, the group of practises was originally set up, developed and launched by Karl Beheira and his wife, Raha. Ok, it was their baby. They. Recline in mind for 10 to 12 years, and then I was fortunate enough to be able to be in a position to be able to buy in to that practise and assist in the growth development all the way through to exit. And the reason why I guess the process has been so intense is that I did want to understand absolutely everything and you only get one shot. Ok. It’s not like selling an Invisalign case. It’s not like selling an implant case. You sell one this week. It doesn’t go to, well, patient doesn’t go ahead or whatever you sell another one next week, you sell another one the week after you’ve only got one shot at partnering with the right business and selling your business right. So I wanted to make sure that every single decision we made was incredibly well executed. Thoughtful, thorough and cow is exactly the same as me. In that respect, he is insanely OCD about detail, and that’s where the two of us work really, really well together in the sense that we knew it was going to be an intense process. But I embraced that process and I saw it as a learning experience.

[00:07:41] I can talk to you about it, but when you initially got into this partnership that the conversation about exit start right at the get go, were you saying, you know,

[00:07:51] Right at the beginning, maybe in the

[00:07:54] Beginning you said that you’re

[00:07:56] So right at the beginning. So there was a lot of due diligence even before I came on as a partner. Ok. Both on from Campeche and Raaz perspective and my perspective as well. So there’s a there’s an amazing book called the Partnership Charter. And we both both both parties, we read that and there’s right in the back of that book, there’s a bunch of questions that you must, must, must act, ask each other as business partners loads are super uncomfortable questions. But there was a lot of business planning, forecasting and stuff that we did prior to me, even at the point of buying the shares. And one of them was the exit valuation of the estate and we said to each other and we agreed together that when the valuation of the business hits a certain number, that is the point that we both agree that we will target that value, that that exit OK. And so when we hit that, then we knew we had to start planning, unlike all of these things, right? You have these big, hairy, audacious goals, and I don’t really want to talk about numbers because I don’t think it’s appropriate.

[00:09:05] But let me ask you, did you hit the number

[00:09:07] Two two years into the into the project? So I guess the point what I want to make is that when we did end up exiting, we exited for twice the value of what our big, hairy, audacious goal was. I think we we both underestimated it. But at the time, I think we both felt we were overestimating right. That was our that was our big, hairy, audacious goal or whatever you want to call it. So. But you know, there were a lot of structured discussions about what my duties were, what car pressures duties were, what Raaz duties were, what we were all expected to do in this business. And forget about the exit. Forget about the partnership with the new team that we’ve just partnered with. There was one overriding factor in this whole business and that was maintaining exceptional customer service, maintaining an amazing patient experience, generating a sales, marketing and training business that was scalable, where Carl Peche could step back clinically and pick and choose the cases he wanted to do and where Raha could step back and focus on family and focus primarily on sort of coaching a lot of the team in terms of the the sort of day to day running of the practise and keeping them well motivated. So we all had our goals that we wanted to achieve. And part of them revolved around, you know, reducing clinical input and focussing more on the business and also the various goals and KPIs that we had in place to grow that business.

[00:10:41] The rhythm of the monthly meetings, the rhythm of the quarterly meetings, the rhythm of the end of year meetings, right? And what the various outputs there were of them when KPIs changed. What do we do, right? When things went up? Yeah. What were the patterns and trends that we were spot in when things went down? How did we deal with them? And then on the day to day, you know, I think it’s really, really important to stress here that, you know, without having the right team and I’m talking about me, Campeche and Rafa together, working as a team, none of us would have been able to achieve what we achieved. Ok, I’ll give you and I’ll give you a little bit of an insight into this if there’s a gap in the diary tomorrow afternoon. Kyle Pash will know about it. Not not in his diary, in an associates diary. If there’s a gap in a hygienist diary. Kyle Peche will know about that, and he will instruct the relevant team members to fill that gap. And it’s that micro level of detail and stress multiplied across multiple disciplines and areas in the business that drives the success of that business.

[00:11:47] So outline what was what were your responsibilities and what were his and what were rattled?

[00:11:53] Ok, so if we take it from a very simple perspective, I mean, I was the marketing person, sales and marketing person from right at the beginning, right when they launched. I remember meeting Karl Passion is one stroke, two bedroom flat in Birmingham and talking about this concept of the Dental suite that he launched and his baby and his ambitions. Right? And they grew that over the first 10 years, and Kyle Busch and Ray have worked their socks off, right? Then I came on board and my responsibilities were to drive business into the practise. As simple as that and my role focussed around sales, marketing and assisting with the customer service side of the business, right systems and processes. Another one of my key roles in the business was and still is putting together strategy working really alongside Carl Pash a lot of the time. But for me, my unique ability sits in document in that process. Am I to go to tools when running and managing any business? I Google Sheets, so essentially a spreadsheet and a tool called Lucid Chart. So I use Lucid Charts, a very simple flow chart and software, and a flow chart every single process in my business, whether it’s to do with how you answer the phone. Whatever it’s to do with delegation strategy, who’s responsible for what? And then things like if this happens, do this and if that happens, do that and having a visual representation on a flow chart for absolutely everything from people to management to out to marketing to, you know, campaigns and strategy, your sales process, your follow up process.

[00:13:35] I literally flowchart everything and anyone who works with me on a one to one basis knows that. And usually I work with clients on the basis of wheat up, wheat flowchart, everything to visually represent the process and also providing, I would say, a higher level of input for MeaCulpa Sharara to be able to bounce ideas off each other, right? And that was literally it. So what did I have to do? I have to generate the patients the enquiries and to make sure the sales team were appropriately trained and trained. Week on week, month on month. And we executed every single little detail right down to voicemail training, right down to listening to phone calls every time, right down to monitoring the emails that went out to patients and tweaking the language. And this started five years ago, and it still hasn’t stopped today. Is that constant quest for perfection, right? And then hiring new team members, onboarding them, having the systems, processes and delegation strategies in place in order to do that. So in answer to your question, pay. It was my responsibility, and it still is my responsibility today to drive patients into the business and drive the sales process.

[00:14:57] Caltech. And in that in that time? Yeah, in that time. But how did that? How did that play out between Cal and Raho? So one was clinical, one was operations.

[00:15:07] So Cal is focussed is primarily clinical. And also, I think on operations, he’s got his finger on the pulse, on many different areas. So on the clinical side of things, he’s got his WhatsApp group and I’m in that and you can see he’s helping clinicians treatment plan on a daily basis. He’s helping them with sales and that sort of stuff, right? And they come in and shadow him and spend time with him. But on the whole, he’s got his finger on the pulse, on numerous different aspects of the business. Yeah, rehab. She steps back from clinical and mainly focussed on the ground, working with our our amazing practise manager Kerry on, I would say, the easiest way to describe it. And I don’t know if it’s the right words, the touchy feely side of the team, right? Keeping the team happy, making sure that we’re appropriately motivated, giving them some personal coaching. Ok. And Roger is somebody who’s very much been in touch with the human side of the individual team members in the practise. And it’s all those things that generate that, that success that we have in the business, right? Without the patients being driven into the practise, there’d be no wants to do your sales training on your practise your treatments on, do do treatment plans, et cetera, et cetera. And without that, we wouldn’t have the team, et cetera, et cetera. You know, you know, so it’s been a fantastic partnership where we’ve all had our, shall we say, roles and responsibilities, and we’ve all played them out and fulfilled them to get us to where we are today.

[00:16:47] So then let’s go into the moment when you said, Right, we are going to exit and you know, what did you do from that moment up to exit? Because I’m sure there’s loads of people who have no idea what that process involves and doing that process. Of course, you can do that process well or you can do that process badly. You know, is it, you know, we were having the chat before. It’s not simply about maximising the value of the practise. It’s about, you know what, what you want to happen to your baby, right? From the owner from from an campus’s perspective, it’s something that they started as one practise single handed and just give us the numbers in terms of staff and all that numbers of people at the end of it all.

[00:17:33] So in terms of right, you know, right at the end, it’s three practises. And I think I think the easiest way to answer your question here is that, you know, you know, when we started looking at exit, what did we do, you know, there’s a few things mean me and Carl had discussions around the numbers. We did some research on what the market rates today, what kind of multiples are being played paid. How do you calculate how do we figure out what our value is today before we even start speaking to everyone, right? And we had discussions pre-COVID, right? And then obviously COVID put a spanner in the works. Yeah, but actually it was it was a blessing in disguise because what happened is, as we all know, in private dentistry, business grew. Right. And we’re still I still think we’re right in that post-COVID. I say post-COVID. Well, you know, we’re riding, we’re riding that success right where where demand has definitely gone through the roof, turnover has gone through the roof. Profitability has gone through the roof. And, you know, exit valuation ended up being a lot higher than, you know, than we’d anticipated had we gone through that pre-COVID, right? But you got one chance to sell your baby. Now this was my baby for four or five years. This was Shinra Peshmergas baby for 15 years. Completely different emotions for both of us, right? And a much, much bigger deal for for those two, and understandably so. Right. So we went through that process and you say, you know, you can either do it well or you can do it badly.

[00:19:09] Let me tell you some that the majority of people that exit won’t know whether they’ve done it well or badly. They won’t. Yeah, OK, because you’re blind to that, right? We did a lot of research, right? And the one thing that we wanted to do is engage a broker who had the same values with us, who is able to, first of all, open us up to, I would say, the the market give us some insight into what was possible and then give us lots of different options. Ok, so that we were able to see what was out there. We didn’t want to just go to one buyer, right and say, OK, well, there’s what we think your business is worth. We think it’s worth that. Let’s let’s play ball. So we engaged. We engaged the services of a guy called Max from flu told partners very, very early on, and we had numerous conversations with him. And I think when it comes to a broker. Number one, you’ve got to be able to get on with them on a personal level. But number two, they need to know their shit, they need to understand the market and you need to understand what you’re getting out of them versus doing this process by yourself. Ok? And what was very clear is there was a lot of value added, and I don’t think we’d have got to where we had had it not been for for this relationship that we’d developed with Max.

[00:20:31] So you knew that Max Max does it that way because you knew him from before we had it on the on the on the podcast, I we

[00:20:39] Don’t not really know. So so I think one of the things is that we we had we had a few conversations with Max and it was actually Kyle Busch and Ra who initiated the conversations with Max. And he said he said to me, Look, Prav, I’m going to stick you in front of eight to 10 buyers, OK? And then you can make the decision on who the right fit is, what the right deal is. Right? And what’s important here is that we have clear ideas of what we wanted out of this deal, not just financially who was the right partner. Ok, we’re going to be moving forward with this partner for several years to come working together. The team that got us there over the last 15 years, you know, their well-being and their future was just as important to us, right? And we what we definitely do not want to kill the brand in case we had we had certain things criteria that we wanted to meet. We wanted to know what life was like afterwards moving forward with this new partner and minimal changes. And we wanted to make sure we hit the right right valuation. So the best deal on the table is not the most money. I can tell you that for now, the best deal on the table is the right deal for you. So if you’re considering exiting or you’re you’re considering partnering with somebody. The most important thing you need to do is take a step back and ask yourself why. What’s the reason? What’s the reason you want to exit? And the buyers will ask you that anyway, right? But why is it that you want to move on now, OK? What is it that you want out of this? And what’s life after look like? Ok, get that clear in your head and then start speaking to the relevant people.

[00:22:25] There’s quite a few things that you need to consider when an offer is made for your business, and there’s a lot of due diligence in that process. You know, what does the offer look like? How much cash are you going to get on completion? What does your earnout period look like? Have you spoken to previous people that that corporate has bought or partnered with? And what’s their experience been like in terms of getting their earn out? For example, was there any price chipping along the way in the negotiations? What did they look like? Speaks to an interview, the lawyers, and ask them what it’s been like dealing with buyer a buyer? B Buyer C How do the deals usually go? Are they usually quick? And then, you know, how does the deal turn out in terms of the in terms of the. Now, are there any growth shares, you know what happens if you overperform for that business and in four years time you’ve increased their rear bit by a hundred K or 200 K? Is there any upside for you? There’s so many different things in the way in which all the offers end up on the table. They’re slightly different in many ways, and you just need to sit back and absorb what has been offered on the table and what every single element means. What we ended up doing is just producing a spreadsheet of each of the offers that were on the table and just trying to do a like for like compare apples for apples, right? You know, we know every day in dentistry, you know, someone goes and has orthodontic treatment in one place, another place and another place.

[00:23:55] Often the treatment plan is very different from this for the same outcome, and you draw the same analogies when you know, exits in your business. There’s lots of different treatment plans presented on the table. You’ve got to really break them down and understand what you’re getting yourself in for on what the future looks like. As part of that deal and how it shapes up. So Max puts several people in front of us, and it was a two way interview process. The first thing we did is we produced a prospectus that contained all the information about the business or the key USPSTF, all the key financial details. We did a lot of pre due diligence way before we even took it to market right and then presented that to all the potential partners out there, spoke to them, interviewed them, they interviewed us. And then it got to a point and we spoke to a bunch of people. We spoke to the existing usual suspects out there. You know who they are, the big corporates who go around mopping up private Dental practises. We spoke to private equity. We spoke to a business that we’re looking to get into the Dental industry, right? So they hadn’t they didn’t have a practise and they wanted to find a platform to invest in. Yeah, that was an exciting opportunity, right? But we considered everything. We looked at the risk versus the benefits and then decided to choose to move forward with one particular partner who you consider.

[00:25:19] Did you consider taking taking an investment and continuing and, you know, not not selling the majority share?

[00:25:28] We spoke about that possibility, right, but you know, if I’m looking at it from my point of view that you know what, my dilution would have been much higher. Ok? We felt that valuations that hit the appropriate level where we were all comfortable. Remember, we spoke about that magic number earlier. Yeah, we were at 2x that. So it just felt the right time. We looked at all different options, the partner we ended up partnering with. Yeah. And I might as well just spit it out now because I’m sure it’s on everyone’s mind right now, right? So we ended up partnering with Dental. And the reason for that, and without any disrespect to any of the players in the market, we felt their values aligned perfectly with ours and we felt that, you know, during the whole process when we presented the due diligence, when we presented what we wanted. We felt that they really understood what we wanted out of this, and we felt that life after involved minimal change and the change that it would involve was actually for the better. So reducing a bit of the red tape and reducing a bit of the headaches of running a practise and benefiting from the economies of scale. But actually in leaving us to carry on doing things the way we’ve always done them and actually supporting our growth. And I can honestly say during the whole process, when you’re buy buying a business or when you’re selling a business or partnering with someone, it’s you versus them. Yeah, that’s that’s how it is. Yeah, because you want the best deal and they want the best deal didn’t feel like that felt like we were both on the same team. Yeah, it was really refreshing to go through that. It was a lovely process and everyone on the team.

[00:27:16] The interesting, interesting thing about what you’re saying is, you know, you only get one chance to buy a practise, but some of these guys, they buy a practise every couple of weeks, right? Yeah. So they’re very experienced that you’re right. If you get the right fit, then you know, it’s going to have to be adversarial by its very nature to start with, isn’t there? That’s just one of those things. Tell me about the different types of groups that you met. Did you meet any overseas groups? So yeah,

[00:27:46] Yeah, we did. We did. And we met. We met a group, a European group that are looking to enter the UK market. They’ve got practises overseas and they wanted to find their first platform to invest into. Ok, really cool group. Exciting interest in for us. I think we felt it was a little bit too high risk because we didn’t have any structure here in the U.K. there’s no head office here in the U.K., there’s no support here in the U.K.. Ok, and we would be we would be their experiment. Yeah, yeah. We’re not selling our baby to someone who’s going to experiment on us, right? Even if even if the numbers stacked up to be better, right? It just and those were the type of decisions that we made, you know, consider it made it excel spreadsheet of pros and cons of each different partner. And then can you

[00:28:40] Choose can you expand on on the group? Like, how many practises do they have in which country?

[00:28:47] Remember off the top of my head, I can’t remember, but you know, it was 30, it was 30 plus practises, right? Wasn’t a huge group, wasn’t a huge group, OK? And I remember very, very early on we only had one meeting with them. We didn’t, you know, we had multiple meetings with with other people. And it was because we dismissed very, very early on that we felt it was going to be too high risk. Yeah. And then there was another there was another business that was purely private equity set up by somebody who was involved in setting up one or the other big corporates and splintered off wanted to set their own business up. And once again, another first platform, no infrastructure had the team on board. And, you know, really nice people. We met with them twice, but once again, I think we consider that to just be a little bit too risky. And we spent a lot of time interviewing them. Ok. You know, we grilled everyone really hard and, you know, they buckled a few times in terms of some of the questions, the detail was a little bit sketchy. And when you think when you’re ready to go into business or partner with somebody, if they’re sketchy on the detail, then you know, it’s just once again, it’s all about risk versus benefit, right? So we just we just stepped back from that.

[00:30:04] Ok, take me through some of the due diligence and stuff you had to get done in order for this to go through for the lawyers.

[00:30:11] All right. So one of the first things that we did is we did some due diligence on our lawyers. Ok, so what usually happens is you think, right, who’s the lawyer? We’re going to hire to do this right? And you ring your buddy up and you say, Hey, you sold your practise, which lawyer did the use? And then you say, Oh yeah, we used Bob Smith, right? It was really good. Ok, fine. We’ll just hire that guy. We will get in probably a half a dozen recommendations, both from clients of mine who have already exited. Yeah, and from Max, our broker. But we just decided we’re going to Zoom interview every single one of them, a couple of them twice. We had a list of questions we would ask them. And obviously, we wanted to know things like, you know, costs, investments, things like that. And we went through that whole process and we grilled our solicitors as well. And we wanted to hire a solicitor before we have the agreed heads of terms in place. So usually you might get your heads of terms in place and then hire a solicitor. I wanted to make sure our heads of terms were just a little bit more detailed. And so we hired our solicitor beforehand, so we did a bit of due diligence. We had a lady called Gemma from nights who was absolutely amazing. There were a handful of people that we interviewed who we thought were would have been exceptional. What sort of questions did we ask the lawyers? There are a few things like that might might not seem that important. But will you take a call from me at eight o’clock at night? Yeah. And some of those lawyers turned out to be not.

[00:31:47] Yeah, buddy. Well, listen, you know, I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. You get it.

[00:31:53] Yeah. Will you take a call from me at eight o’clock at night? Do you work weekends? How many deals have you done with this particular buyer? Ok. What have been the things that delayed the deal? What was the biggest thing that delays deals with this buyer? Do you have a list of questions involved in the due diligence process that you have that could prepare us for this, right? And the moment I asked that question within 15 minutes, I got a list of questions sent to me by notes. I asked everyone else that. I asked everyone else that, and they said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what notes did is they sent me that list of questions and that I felt that was prior to hiring them and that I just felt that, you know, it was one of those little boxes that they tipped to say, This is nice, right? This is very proactive. Whether you proceed with us or not, you are going to need to answer all of these questions. So the first thing that we did is started working through those questions even before we’d we’d engage them. So we went through that whole process. And then, what’s the due diligence? It’s the worst 90 days you’re ever going to experience in any in business, right? It really is. It depends how detailed you go, right? But right down to every little financial detail, everything that every item that’s been through the business, right? Every little line item in your finances. Ok, I learnt more about my business in that 90 days than I did in the last five years.

[00:33:22] Yeah. Interesting.

[00:33:23] And had I known everything I knew about my business, our business in the last five years, we’d have done things slightly differently.

[00:33:36] Yeah, yeah. It’s just an example of one of those things.

[00:33:41] If I just take one simple thing which comes down to the way we the way. We pay our associates, OK, so we pay our associates on cash received and not work completed. Ok, so you might think, well, what’s what’s the big deal there, right? Patient comes along, pays us four grand for also treatment on day one. Our associate has done a bond. Ok? Ok, so have they completed foregrounds worth the work? Absolutely not. But why? Let’s say the wrong 50 percent. They get their two grand minus the lab bill or whatever, right? So they get their money upfront. Ok. Now, just just from that perspective alone, from a cash flow perspective, had we paid our associates or our team based on work completed rather than cash received, a cash flow game would be completely different. Ok? Tiny little things like that. The other thing I’ll tell you about is when you go through every single cost in your zero accounts and you look at every single invoice and you do it because you have to at this point, right? You don’t do it because it’s a it’s an exercise that you just kind of like scoot over and you don’t go into much detail. You figure out there’s a few standing orders there that you should have cancelled maybe 12 months ago. Yeah. Below the radar amounts a hundred quid there, 200 quid there or whatever, right? We could have probably had our finger on the on the ball a little a little bit closer.

[00:35:11] But because of the way the business was growing was scaling. There were other problems that we had to solve and fix those tiny details, probably, you know, didn’t matter as much. But but there’s a lot of things that we could have done during that whole process that would have made made running the business smoother. But here’s a point. Here’s here’s a thought Payman. We’ve been through this 90 day process of deep due diligence. Now imagine and this is this is a concept whenever we do anything like this or always try and cast myself into nature. Imagine you run your practise every day using the systems and processes, documenting everything in a way that you decided to exit tomorrow and partner with somebody that all your due diligence was done. It was done OK. And I mean, to the fact that the way you keep your records and all your team members right down to the hepatitis B vaccination, their passport details their CRB. Absolutely every detail documented to the nth degree. Yeah, every little bit of your insurance, your lease, this, that and the other, right? Had I known all of that, I would have run my business exit ready. Every month year, I’m not something that I want to sort of an interesting idea.

[00:36:32] Interesting idea. But you know, it’s it’s it’s not it’s not normality, is it? It’s not. It’s not what normal normal businesses do. But why tell me why? Tell me why. Tell me why did? But what’s the what’s the huge benefit?

[00:36:46] The huge benefit is every single month. You know what your business is worth? Number one, OK? You know that. And if you know that OK, and it’s the same with every KPI, let’s let’s go away from dentistry. Let’s go to bench press. Ok? So if I’m bench pressing every Monday, right, and tomorrow I start with an eight kilo bench press, OK, and I document that Prav bench press eight to kilos last Monday, and they three Mondays later is bench press in eight to five kilos any documents. And if you document that stat every single Monday, what do you think is going to happen to that number? It’s going to go up and up. It’s going to go up because you’re measuring it and you’re documenting it, right? And that’s the same thing with that. The other benefit is that if you ever got to the point where you said, right now, we’re ready to partner with somebody. Can you imagine can you imagine going to your potential partner and say, by the way, here’s the thirty five folders that you’re going to need for due diligence? Ok? It’s probably going to take you about 20 days to work your way through that, but I’ve just saved myself 90 to one hundred to one hundred and twenty days of hell. But during that whole process

[00:38:02] Is also also, I guess, you look better right to the potential buyer. You look like a much more professional organisation with without question.

[00:38:11] You know, there was a few comments that came back from Dental, which were the level and depth and detail of organisation and the way we presented everything to them. Yeah, they were incredibly impressed with the way that that was all handled. Ok. So there is that and you know, at the end of the day, they’re making an investment as well, right? They need to be clear that they’re choosing the right partner as well as us. Yeah. So, yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, it looks better. But you run your business better. You spot these little issues better. And if there’s anything that’s going to come out of this experience, rather in addition to, you know, having achieved this goal that we’ve we’ve we’ve achieved during the process, right, is that I do want to put together some kind of education that allows practise owners a deeper insight into the process, the pitfalls, what’s involved in the due diligence, what they can do today to get their business ready for the next next stage and what sort of questions they should be asking themselves and thinking,

[00:39:15] Hmm, I study very nice. I mean, and I guess that applies to any business, right? And you didn’t have any NHS element in your. Nothing like this, did you? Nothing. No. So that complicated because that’s another thing that, you know, I know in selling practise that becomes a whole headache and time wasting

[00:39:36] A whole headache, right? And the reason the reason there was no NHS. And I believe there was when Kyle Peche bought one of his earlier practises. And he’s always been a believer of the fact that you can’t offer a two tier service in a single business. And look, a lot of people do OK. But it’s always been his vision that we don’t do two tiers here. There’s one tier and it’s that minimum high standard that we offer and nothing lower. Hmm.

[00:40:06] Yeah. Let’s move on, Duke, let’s move on to where we are today compared to this time last year, when we sat, Boris had just cancelled Christmas. If you remember the Delta variant, it’s just hit. And here we are again on on with the corona situation. I don’t know about you, dude, but to me, just anecdotally, I’m hearing about more people getting this than I’ve ever heard before. And yet when we look at South Africa, which is furthest forward on this, it looks like there aren’t as many hospitalisations and so forth. And I think, you know, if we it’s easy to worry about this sort of thing a lot and we should, of course. But compared to this time last year, when it was Delta, when we didn’t, we weren’t sure about all the growth that every Dental business must have seen in this period. I think we’re in a better place compared to that. I mean, it’s been an extraordinary year, as far as you know. Look at it from from my perspective, I see people are doing dead a lot more private dentistry and enlightens one of those businesses that kind of kind of tracks private dentistry. And you know, you’ve

[00:41:22] Got the money on the head there, buddy, because whenever I speak to a practise, you know what? One of the first questions I ask them, how much whitening do you do? Yeah. How much whitening do you do? Do you track the number of white things that you do a month or a week? Right? And I truly believe that it is an indicator of private Dental, almost like a KPI, a benchmark. We use it all the time, right? How many whitening starts do we do? How many fingers starts do we do? So if your numbers have gone up in lights, then that’s a benchmark for the industry.

[00:41:51] For private, for sure, for sure, for sure. And I think it’s a lot of a lot of NHS, Baxter said then. Let’s face it relatively well out of the pandemic and you know, they obviously had. They’ve got right now this question of heading the 65 percent. And I think that going forward, the NHS side is is looking a little bit ropey. No one knows exactly how it’s going to pan out. But I think one thing we can all say is there’s not going to be any new money for NHS dentistry. It’s very, very unlikely, isn’t it? I mean, people do kind of think there’ll be different versions of the core service, whether whether that’s government imposed or whether that’s just the way practise set themselves up to have NHS as a core service. Mm hmm. But what I’ve seen a lot of in this year is a bunch of ex, you know, very NHS practises trying to set up private sides, trying to increase their private revenue, both on the corporate and on the independent side. I see I see that going on the private side. It seems like people have been, you know, making hay. And you know, I’ve had some of our users come back and say, Oh, look, things have slowed down a little bit now. Yeah. And you know, sure, things have slowed down a little bit now, but we forget there was always seasonality in dentistry. We just got so used to just these massive growth numbers. Yeah, how about you? What do you see with your clients?

[00:43:19] So we’ve seen we’ve seen huge growth, right, not only in my own practises, but with my clients across the board. I don’t think I work with anyone who offers NHS dentistry as a mainstream service, if that makes sense. If anything, it’s it’s tacked on because it’s either historic or it’s children or it’s minimal or whatever that is. I’ve had a lot of enquiries for coaching from people who want to transition from NHS to private.

[00:43:48] A lot now

[00:43:49] A lot and just the unknown, the minefield. What what does their education need to look like? What courses do they need to book in? You know, everything ranging from, you know, how to start at the beginning and get there. But on the private side of things, the growth has been in say OK, and there doesn’t seem to be any sign of it stopping and pay. I’m talking everything from from whitening and just a little bit of a white feeling here in there right through to, you know, ab type stuff, more complex restorative dentistry right through to those who have in sort of a full mouth of, you know, immediate loaded implant dentistry, you know, right at the top end of the scale where people are investing north of 30 40 K on their teeth, right? And we’re getting more people saying yes, yes, yes, right?

[00:44:43] Private does private kids also as well a few of your clients?

[00:44:47] Few of my clients, I mean, we we’ve run a few campaigns for just targeting mums, right? I think we’ve spoken about this in the past, right? And, you know, call me sexist or whatever, right? But when you target mums, you get a high conversion rate of kids ortho. But once again, a huge upsurge in that, well, you know, it’s probably down to the fact that, you know, similar sort of demand less of a supply. Ok. Longer waiting lists, maybe stricter criteria. And then the other thing that anecdotally here all the time for my clients is that they get a lot of patients coming through who are saying the reason they’ve decided to change their smile is Zoom. Yeah. And I’m not talking about your competitor whitening product here, mate. I’m talking about the the video conferencing, right, is on Zoom. They’re looking at their teeth all the time and they’ve become aware of it and then they want to change something. And this is so many of my clients who sign a reason for patients going ahead is seeing themselves on video.

[00:45:48] Yeah, well, you say you say you don’t see any signs of it slowing down, but we’ve got to acknowledge some of the concerns as well going forward. I mean, and you know, I think last year we all became virologists. This year, a lot of us are becoming economists, the economists, you know? Yeah. Well, you know, we’ve got this the inflation sort of situation, you know, there’s wage inflation, massive wage inflation. Yeah, loads of practises, not able to retain staff because staff are decided to go to other jobs that aren’t as difficult and pay paid the same. And I don’t think it’s only in dentistry. I think it’s across the board. We see it in our business as well, people, people asking for bigger pay rises and all of that. But but in in all businesses and then a shortage of skilled labour, there’s definitely a shortage of people willing to come and work. Yeah. Whether it’s Brexit, that’s caused that. But I do understand it’s the same situation in the US. Although, you know, Trump wasn’t exactly friendly to immigration, either, so I don’t know. Going forward, you know, we have to pay for COVID. Let’s imagine it gets easier from here. Who knows? Yeah, let’s imagine it gets the actual clinical medical situation gets easier. We have to pay for it somehow. And then on our side, look, we’ve had big issues with supplying product. You know that our supplier supplier can’t supply him some raw material. And again, across the board, you can see this. It’s the first time ever that Amazon problems they’ve ever had in my life.

[00:47:27] Look, we’re getting a little bit of work done at home, right and building supplies, materials, things like that, right? You know, we had a quote to have some work done at home. There was a bit of delay in getting the materials across and then and then our builder came and said, Look, I’m going to have to increase the quote by 20 percent, and there’s absolutely nothing I can do. It’s because the cost of materials have gone up. Yeah, and and he wasn’t trying to pull a fast one. You know, it cost the

[00:47:54] Cost of everything you. It was a

[00:47:56] Genuine, you know, sorry, Prav. But this is what it’s going to cost. You know, the labour had stayed the same and everything. And you know, we’re seeing it in practise now that when you’re looking to, for example, employ a nurse or a higher team member, the pool of people or at least the volume of that pool and quality of that pool is much, much smaller. Ok. Yeah. And some are going elsewhere into other industries. Some have had just sort of life changing moments. Yeah, you know, COVID has lockdown. Covid has given us all a chance to sit back and and sort of think what I want to do in my life. But do I really want to be socking spit for the rest of my life? Or would you rather do something, whatever, whatever that is, you know, you all have those moments where you think, you know, you reassess what you want to do even during this process where you know, I was, you know, thinking about the the other end of the reward that comes out of selling a business right is that you end up in a financial position that you become more stable. Yeah, it meant that I could afford to take less share of people. Yeah. Do you understand what I mean that that that you can you can actually turn around and actually turn more down, or you can tell someone to go take a hike and find another provider because because you’re a little bit more comfortable now, right? Same thing with with team members, right, is they have a reassessment of of what they want out of life, right? And what their priorities are and maybe flip over to other careers and things like that. And I think in dentistry, we are going to see certainly across the board a hike in overheads when it comes to wages, for sure, for sure. And it’s inevitable it’s going to come. And I think if we don’t talk about it, we’re just we’re just skirting around that issue.

[00:49:53] And I think around that you feel Prav because I think it may be high time for it. And I know it’s a strange thing to say. But but since the 2008 2009 recession, wages have really been quite stagnant. I know some practises give pay rises every year and a lot of that. I’m not happy about it to tell you the truth, you know, because it’s a pressure on on on employers, right? Yeah. But I do think that it might be high time and certainly your money just doesn’t go as far. There’s no way

[00:50:29] That we know that right. The money printers been going off like like the clappers, right? You know, we’ve got inflation. We’ve, you know, we’ve just heard from the Fed that they’re going to reduce tapering as well.

[00:50:41] And yeah, you know,

[00:50:43] Everything is just pointing to the fact that, you know. The cost of living, yeah, your bottle of milk, let let’s just take this down to brass tacks, right? What does it mean? Yeah. Is that your your bottle of milk is now going to be 10 quid instead of two? Right? It’s not. The money is not going to stretch as far. Yeah. And as a result of that, then people need to live and earn, right.

[00:51:07] And so I don’t think it’s going to go to ten quid. No, I don’t think I’m

[00:51:11] Overexaggerating here, right?

[00:51:15] But you’ve you’ve never lived, you’ve never lived through or you weren’t old enough to remember an inflationary period, have you? Were you? No, I have. No, I do. I remember. It’s terrible. It’s terrible when it happens. And one thing I would say to inflation is very nice. If you’re a big borrower, you know, if you’ve got two million pounds of debt on your house or something, suddenly that number doesn’t seem as scary anymore when all prices of everything, all assets go up. You know, I do think it’s a potential worry. And, you know, I think we’ve been living kind of on this printed cash and and, you know, corona. Covid hasn’t yet played out financially, let alone. I mean, we don’t medically, financially, it hasn’t yet played out. And and I think we’ve been extremely lucky as a profession so far to be able to navigate it. As I said to you before, I’ve got friends who own pubs and nightclubs and all that say navigating it very easily at all. But going forward, I think you’re right that, you know, we need to soberly look at it. And then, you know, the questions have been going on the forums. You know, who’s going to pay this extra? Have you ever seen that? Who’s going to pay for this extra money? Is it going to be the principal or is it going to be the associate? And I think there’s going to be new models that, you know, whether it’s a therapist led, you know, we see that a lot in my area and composite bonding. You’ve got some therapists, you know who you know, that’s all they do all day, every day. And from a principals perspective, that’s that’s quite attractive idea, right? You can, you know, you can get the money that way, I guess, and the associate principal disputes that have been happening in the last year. I think for now, maybe that the pendulum swung towards associate. But we have to be careful because if you know, if a practise owner can’t make the thing pay, he’s going to try and find new business models, right? You’ve got to

[00:53:19] Adapt, right? The one thing about about being a business owner, right, is I truly believe that owning a business is just about solving problems. There’s nothing more to it than that, right? You just you just fixing things and solving problems all day long, right? And you know, if you’re hit with something that makes your cost base go up, you’ve got to fix that problem. Yeah. However, that may be either increasingly the end cost to the consumer or adjusting your business model or a combination of the two or whatever. That is right. You sit back as a business owner and analyse how you’re going to how are you going to solve that problem? Ok. And that may end up adapting itself as business models. I mean, I’ve got I’ll say this without without spilling the beans because I think could shoot me if I, if I, if I shared this information with anyone. But you know, he’s trusted me with with some information about how he’s going to change his business model in his practise, going from one to seven practises, how he’s going to scale up, and he’s come up with a really unique model of how he’s going to deliver the industry. Ok, and he’s thinking four or five years ahead, a real, a real maverick, really, in terms of how he thinks ahead. When I look at that and the way he’s thinking, Yeah, I think, holy crap, that guy’s got some big balls, right? He knows that I take some risks. Yeah, but if what he’s thinking plays off and I’m pretty confident if anyone can do it, he can. Yeah, yeah, he’ll monopolise in the methodology and he’ll be first to market in terms of the way he and his team deliver a certain type of dentistry. So business models will change because we’ll be forced to write and some of them, some of us are thinkers that think ahead of the curve and some of us are reactive who respond to that situation. But change is inevitable.

[00:55:12] How about of your clients? Prav is do you see a shift from big practises to smaller ones?

[00:55:20] What do you mean?

[00:55:21] You know, because, well, because the cost base of big practises just seems to be so difficult. I mean. Well, let me let me go back a little bit. I think there was there was some thinking that you needed the size to get the sort of the, you know, what they called economies of scale before, you know, corporates were looking at three three surgery practises as a minimum. But now I see a little trend more going towards sort of boutique practises, you know?

[00:55:46] You know what it is, pay a lot, a lot of it comes down to actually, you know, what’s your business model? What are you doing? You know, you could have a small boutique practise that just focuses on high Typekit dentistry. Ok. So that income, yeah, you don’t need the economies of scale to deal with that. And then I work with some practises who pride themselves on doing a lot of general dentistry. And from that general dentistry, they generate their cosmetic dentistry. About 50 percent of their income is general and 50 percent of their income is high. Typekit dentistry, right? So their cost base is much higher. Ok. They need the economies of scale, et cetera, et cetera. You set up a boutique practise and say, Look, I’m going to focus my business on AB Implant Dentistry. You can go down the route of like the equivalent of the Evo Dental, who only do same day immediate loaded teeth, right? We are that it’s a specialist centre in inverted commas. Yeah. The only focus on that one high ticket thing and we do it well, right? So you know, you don’t you don’t need that entirely depends on your business model. Yeah. And you know, there’s a lot to be said for these practises who do. Yeah, a lot of general dentistry. I tend to find myself that those practise owners that focus on doing a lot of general dentistry and a little bit of cosmetic dentistry is generally happier as human beings.

[00:57:14] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, whether it’s the you can see the lack of the

[00:57:20] Lack of stress associated with those with those bigger ticket or more demanding patients, or the fact that they’re comfortable and complacent with whatever it is, they’re generating and doing their general and minimal sort of high ticket dentistry. But generally, as human beings, much more content, much happier.

[00:57:37] Well, while you’ve been gone Prav, I’ve changed some of the final questions. Ok, so I want to I want to quickly throw one at you, all of the mother. Fancy dinner party, buddy.

[00:57:59] Fantasy Dinner Party,

[00:58:02] Three guests dead or alive. Prav who would be your three guests, please? Dinner for a dinner party.

[00:58:13] Who? Elon Musk, for sure, for sure.

[00:58:20] Why? Why? Because look after the winner.

[00:58:24] No, not necessarily.

[00:58:25] But anyone who is history, go listen.

[00:58:28] Anyone who’s crazy enough to say that we’re going to populate Mars. Ok with conviction and take life onto their right thinks in a way above and beyond and completely different to the way we do, right? And then the guy, you know? And then he reinvented electric cars, right? You’re not going to be having normal conversations with this dude. You see some of the stuff he puts out on Twitter writes a little bit wacky. Yeah, I like it. Of course it’s going to. Of course it’s going to be wacky. Do you expect normal stuff to come out of this dude? Yeah.

[00:59:03] So, yeah,

[00:59:04] He he definitely be one. Yeah.

[00:59:08] And number two, interesting, buddy. If you’re interested, Elon’s done a couple of Joe Rogan’s. Yeah, yeah. I’ve seen three hour Joe Don, who second.

[00:59:19] Arnold Schwarzenegger, you got.

[00:59:22] Yeah, because he’s got muscle.

[00:59:25] Well, childhood hero, right? And look, if you if you was, he was he was he God? Yeah, for sure, right? And you know, in my younger years, I was into bodybuilding and all the rest of it, right? Oh, good. So, you know, definitely would love to sort of catch up with him and just learn more about where he came from and from wisdom. Very motivational guy, right? For sure. Third, jeez, man, put me on the spot here, buddy. Hmm.

[00:59:58] I know it is. Go granddad, my granddad.

[01:00:03] You know what? The moment you said that? You arsehole, man. Sorry. It’s my granddad.

[01:00:17] Yeah. Finally.

[01:00:30] No need to say anything more, buddy.

[01:00:34] It’s a beautiful body. Listen, it’s who he’s

[01:00:38] Been and buddy. You’re not getting away with this man.

[01:00:47] Trying to get out of that man

[01:00:51] Who he was.

[01:00:54] It’s strange because I’ve asked this question many times already, and I haven’t yet fully worked out my answer. But the first guy is the guy whose name I don’t know who’s the guy behind Red Bull. Ok, you don’t, you know? No, I do that, dude. There’s a guy. There’s a guy. And I kind of like the fact that I don’t know his name. I wish I could google it right now and find out, right? But but I like the fact that I don’t know his name and that he’s got brand, the head of, you know, ego to get ahead of his own name. And, you know, often we think with, you know, who owns Tesla, Elon Musk, but there’s loads of massive brands. We don’t know who owns the Nike, you know, I mean, I know some some people do know that, but there are some brands where the brand takes precedence over the personality. And I really, by the way, I’m not even a massive fan of Red Bull, the product, but the brand, what he’s done with it and just the thought process to go into that market with the with the incumbent Coca-Cola and Pepsi to take them on with this little can and and the marketing, the marketing, you know that you don’t see a can of Red Bull in the marketing at all, right? You know that they’re riding motorbikes off cliffs and jumping out of space ships.

[01:02:19] Yeah. And then of late, I mean, you are not sports fans. Yeah, but he’s bought two or three football teams. And part of it is change the names of the football teams to Red Bull first and then the name of the football team. He’s got one in the American. You know that that thing they’ve got going on in America and in Europe, he’s got a couple of team and of course, Formula One F1 number one. I’m not a big fan, but just the thinking that those play in races. Yeah, yeah. So definitely him. Let’s go to your Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was my hero back then. I got the ice to love Prince. I was a massive fan. Yeah, I have friends, for sure. For sure. I’m. And my grandmother, my grandmother, your mother said my grandmother or my mother had a very special relationship with her. It is a bit of a copout, but but you know, it is, it is what it is. What do you remember? Oh, it is a really funny lady, really caring, but funny, funny. One of the funniest people I’ve ever come across. Do you know what was that cartoon show? Penelope Pit Stop.

[01:03:37] And that dastardly and morally wrong.

[01:03:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and the get off that laugh that the dog might be like my grandmother, whatever she was say she was, she would laugh like that. Or, you know, she’d she’d be so funny that, you know, that’s what I always remember her as the laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. It’s been nice, buddy. It’s been nice.

[01:04:02] It’s been good to catch up and there’s going to be, yeah, the resurrection of the Prav and pay again.

[01:04:09] We’re going to do this podcast

[01:04:10] Together this year, for sure,

[01:04:12] Right? Let’s hope.

[01:04:13] My focus, you know, my my focus is definitely is definitely changing for twenty twenty two. So, you know, they’ll definitely be more present. Anyone who knows that I’ve been online prior to that, I completely disappeared from Facebook and Instagram, right? Those who know me will know why I went into a hole and just went as I do, you know, 100 percent into this project. And as a result of that, against my best advice that I would give to others, put my health. Second, you know, and things like that. And so things are going to go into a different gear now and you’ll see more of me.

[01:05:03] It’s lovely to have you back, buddy, you know, and I think going forward, we’ve been working on a bunch of stuff that enlighten and I’ve been thinking, You know, why don’t I give something back to this community? Because, you know, a lot of times I’m on a course or something and people come up to me and say, I listen to every single episode. And, you know, if you’re listening to the end of this one, then good because I’m going to be making some announcements with enlightened and making sure this community benefits from those enhancements, giving some free stuff out there. Good. All right, buddy. Well, I’ll see you in twenty twenty two, I guess. I guess that’s the way it’s going to be. It is, but it is. We’re here.

[01:05:45] We’re at the end. I’ve signed off for the year. Officially, I haven’t. That’s all that’s me doing. I’ve got to give back to my family, right? I’ve certainly neglected them over the last three months, so it’s time to it’s time to kiss and make up.

[01:06:01] Nice. All right. All right. My lovely, lovely having you back.

[01:06:03] But this is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:06:21] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

[01:06:36] If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

[01:06:46] And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] Phobic patients who basically just need time. So many of them, so I’ve done sedation training in the last few years, but so many of my sedation patients, we sedate them initially and I try and wean them off it. That’s kind of my goal, and that is life changing treatment. I have a guy who he wouldn’t let us take photos even in the waiting room. He cried, coming up the stairs the first time he ever came in and he wouldn’t sit in a chair. It was traumatic just for him to come in the practise.

[00:00:29] We did

[00:00:30] A fair amount treatment under sedation, and then a couple of months ago, we placed two lower implants

[00:00:34] With no station and

[00:00:36] Us and

[00:00:37] Fulfilling. Isn’t it

[00:00:38] So good? So, so good?

[00:00:45] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:02] Gives me great pleasure to welcome Alan Bergin onto the podcast, a.k.a. the The Cornish dentist. Nice to have you, buddy.

[00:01:11] Hey, Payman. Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:01:14] It’s a pleasure to have you, buddy. I’ve come across your work mainly on Instagram, and I’ve got to hand it to you that that’s a great page. You’ve got going on the dot dot doesn’t matter. The Cornish Dental is what I love about it is that, you know, you kind of almost breaking the rules of Instagram in a way. It’s not quantity, it’s quality. Whereas, you know, a lot of people think I have to post every day and you’re not you’re not posting

[00:01:39] Anywhere near that that amount.

[00:01:41] But every time you post, it’s it’s a pleasure to go through what you’ve got there. And for me, I tend to break down dentists. I mean, it’s a dentist page, really, isn’t it? It’s not. It’s not a patient page, but I tend to break down dentistry. It’s almost like breadth or depth. And you it’s almost you’ve got both going on, which is really difficult to pull off so many different aspects of dentistry going hot on that page. But let’s let’s let’s get to the to the sort of the origin story. Where did you grow up? Why dentistry? What kind of?

[00:02:18] So yeah, I grew up in the south east in Surrey and pretty normal, normal upbringing. I went to a school in Reigate, played quite a lot of rugby. My dad was an engineer. He sort of worked his way up. He came out of out of school with pretty minimal qualifications and through hard graft and whatever worked his way up to doing well in engineering. And my mom actually was a dental therapist and talk therapy even in London, probably like thirty five plus years ago.

[00:02:54] Oh, and which is interesting

[00:02:56] Because, you know, my wife’s a therapist and, you know, they have the same discussions that they were having 35 years ago about their involvement and all that sort of thing. But you know, it wasn’t that classic of, you know, mums in the industry and you move, move, follow in their footsteps. I really wasn’t that aware of what she was doing and actually she wasn’t in dentistry when she had me. My sister’s three years older and she sort of finished finished that between the two of us. And then she had worked in a nursery in the nursery school for 20 odd years. So, yeah, I grew up in in and around Raleigh, in Reigate, and then went to university in Cardiff. Let me stay with you. Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:42] What made you do dentistry? How did it? Was it your mum was? It was that it really wasn’t.

[00:03:46] And actually, I didn’t didn’t even really start chatting dentistry until I was doing it with with her. And I think that was that’s kind of my sort of parents style of upbringing, I think the whole way through. They’ve always been there to sort of guide and help. But at the same time, in no way said, do this do that, they’re really been there are great in that way. And actually, it was I had a great dentist that I went to religiously every six months and there was never anything wrong. And you know, I can imagine my mum was pretty on top of our teeth and everything. So then I went to her braces and I kind of all of a sudden I was like, Oh, this is this is different. This is this is still teeth. And actually, to be fair, I walked up the orthodontist practise and I think there was like a BMW and Mercedes couple, the nice cars at the front. Oh, this is interesting. And then so I actually did some work experience in engineering because I was doing the sciences and whatever. My dad was like, Oh, maybe you know, you might like engineering and it wasn’t for me. So next door to our school was a really top private Dental practise just by a complete fluke. And I just I just went in there one day and said, You know, I’m kind of interested and I might be doing dentistry, just wondering if I could come and shadow you at this lady in there for a bit.

[00:05:22] And lady called Jill Nightingale just an incredible dentist, actually just the loveliest lady. And she said, Yeah, sure. So I went and saw her, I think, for like a day or whatever. And back then it was all about you, as it is now, I’m sure. But the UCAS application and trying to show your interest and something a bit different. And I had I think it’s like a double or triple free period every Friday. And I just I said to Joe, You know, can I? I’m literally next door. Can I come in for, I don’t know, a couple of months, just every Friday morning and watch you? She is. She’s totally on board with it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I just went and observed her. Asked her loads of questions, probably got in the way of it, but she, you know. One thing actually, she said to me that I always remembered was, she said, you know, I reckon about 50 percent of dentists hate their job and about 50 percent love it. It doesn’t matter what you do, just make sure you’re in the right 50 percent and that that kind of stuck with me all the way through, really. So that that sort of sparked my interest here.

[00:06:33] I remember Alan Gilmore in Cardiff saying something like that as well. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. So, so true, isn’t it? Because, you know, if you could bottle your enthusiasm for teeth and you know, I’m sure, you know, we’ll get onto that. You can bottle that. You can you can teach, you can, you can talk about it. But I guess it’s something to do with continuous improvement, though.

[00:06:59] Yeah. Yeah, I think absolutely, absolutely.

[00:07:04] And that’s what we all want to get back. I want to get back to your childhood quickly. It’s a pleasure. If you don’t mind. But you know, I listen to your podcast with jazz, and I think everyone should, because I’d rather not just covered the same, the same thing I’m glad to get. But what came through that podcast for me was your just confidence as a person, not not talking about dentistry, but as a person, total confidence. And have you got a kid?

[00:07:31] Yeah, yeah. 16 month old little boy.

[00:07:34] Ok. Early, early. But I’ve got I’ve got kids. And you know, in the end,

[00:07:39] What better thing can you do

[00:07:40] For your kids than give them confidence?

[00:07:43] So do you remember

[00:07:44] Being not confident ever? And then a moment of inflexion? Or were you just always naturally that that kid?

[00:07:52] You know, I don’t think I was that kid. I mean, in some circumstances, yeah, for sure. But my my dad, he’s one of his big hobbies. When he, when we were younger, was acting and he was at this local theatre group, that was great. And my sister went there every weekend and did this little workshop and quite a few of our little friends did. So I went along with them because they were doing it, and I just never really clicked for me. I just didn’t have that get on stage and be the confident guy. I don’t know if it’s confidence or just didn’t click with these people. I don’t know. But I didn’t gel into that into that group, so I definitely didn’t feel that. Yeah, confidence at that stage. But then, you know,

[00:08:43] Do you remember, when do you remember when you did? I mean, you’re definitely a very confident person, a doubt about that, right?

[00:08:50] You know, reflecting on that podcast with jazz was when we chatted all the way through. I sat back afterwards from that and thought, Do you know what? Actually, the majority of my kind of career and progression has basically been a series of high pressure situations that are sink or swim. And so far I’ve been swimming. But some of them, I think, were close to the mark

[00:09:15] Of,

[00:09:17] You know, actually actually getting through it. And I remember times in I did a maxillofacial year. I remember walking over to the ward once going down to A&E and I did it in Newport, which was

[00:09:31] There was, I think I’ve been to the hospital. Yeah, the hospital was a plenty of

[00:09:37] Plenty of trauma to work on there. Amazing place to work for a year, for sure. But I remember striding down the hallway with my staff grade and she said this is the vertical part of the learning slope. And so I would say, I say it probably initially stemmed from team team sport, you know, being in with the rugby guys. And yeah, as always, not the loudest guy, but I was having a joke and a laugh. And yeah, I definitely felt confident in those scenarios, for sure.

[00:10:15] When you when you pick Cardiff, did you pick Cardiff because you knew about the rugby?

[00:10:19] No, no, no, no. So I don’t know. So there’s that situation. I think it was like four or five universities and I put down Leeds, Cardiff, Sheffield somewhere else. And then my last one, I was saying to my mom was like, Oh my go. I like Manchester or Newcastle. And she went, You know, like my parents guided me, but they weren’t in any way push you on anything which was like, Why don’t you? Why don’t you think about

[00:10:53] Kings, which is like,

[00:10:55] You know, forty five minutes away? I was like, What? What she’s like? You basically picked the four universities at the furthest away from Surrey. Why you think about kings? I thought, Why don’t we go kings is like,

[00:11:07] Well, you know, they

[00:11:08] They look a bit more on personal statement. I think I was like, I don’t think I’m going to get the grades they’re. Thanks.

[00:11:13] Thanks for the service.

[00:11:17] And so I did put things down, I did put it, but yeah, I got I got, you know what it was actually. In all honesty, I went to the open day at Cardiff and I went and had the interview and I just really in the interview waiting room and all the other places. It was kind of like, no one’s talking to each other, just sitting with your parent you’re with and focus on the interview. Cardiff it was like all the young people sitting around a big table, just having a chat and getting on with each other. And I thought, Yeah, this is this is my mix of people, to be honest.

[00:11:55] It’s such a great city. I mean, the Welsh themselves and Nakumatt. I mean, I’ve travelled up and down the country and there are good people in a lot of different places to tell you the truth. I mean, there are different types of characters right in. In Liverpool, you get loads of funny Scousers. Everyone’s a comedian and everyone’s got some sort of side hustle going on. But in Cardiff, the warmth of that

[00:12:18] Community of of Welsh

[00:12:20] People and and you worked in Rhondda as well, right? Yeah, the whole other oh even more a deeper sort of family sort of situation. I just love the Welsh band. It’s stuck with me since, you know, I left long before you did, but just wonderful people.

[00:12:39] It’s one of those ones, though, that I’ve got so many great friends still that well, of course, they all still live there because none of them leave, in fact. So we went on, we went on a sports day once to Leeds. We at one of the boys, I think he was in the fifth year. He was getting a little panicky as we’re getting towards the bridge. Let’s see what’s up.

[00:13:03] He’s like. I got my passport.

[00:13:08] He never left way of getting to touch about it, but yeah, so. Brilliant, brilliant group of how

[00:13:16] Do you find Dental school?

[00:13:18] I loved it. You know, I wouldn’t say it was certainly wasn’t top of the class. It wasn’t bottom. I was just in the middle doing OK, trying to find a balance social, I guess with with education, and made it to most of the lectures, pretty much pretty much all lectures. But I think I definitely I definitely enjoyed it more when we got to the sort of hands on endowment, that was more me.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:48] How did you meet your now wife there as well?

[00:13:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, so she was I was in second year and she was first year. We had a couple of joint lectures together. And it’s yeah, she’s from Cornwall originally. So. So we how we ended up here.

[00:14:07] So then tell me what you did after you qualified.

[00:14:09] So when I qualified, the first job I had was in max facts, and that was through a situation of mishaps in applying for Viti and just went horribly wrong. Just a nightmare. Basically had no other option. Literally one job, probably probably in the country, because I couldn’t. I didn’t have a NHS number, so I couldn’t do any of the DfT posts that had community with them, which was pretty much all of them. But there was one one matt fact post where basically the consultant there, great guy. John Llewellyn, small but fearsome consultant. I think the past, however many years, he was on a Tier two scheme and he’d effectively every dentist that did the first six months. He would pinch them for the second six months, and they kept losing out on this beauty spot. So they in the end just gave up and made it at 12 months max back post, but kept it as deaf, too. So. So that was pretty much the only job I could apply for. And just by complete fluke, I had a two week placement there about a month before the applications for that place and and my my very good friend who was partnered with she, she basically went up to him and said, This guy’s not got a job. You know, she’s she’s born and bred Welsh and the confidence in her. She just just had my back and said, This guy’s not got a job. He’s going, he’s applying for this place and then sort of looked at me like,

[00:15:50] Oh, right, okay, let’s

[00:15:52] Let’s test him out. See how it goes. And I had a few sort of string of successful things in that post, just like us taking out our wisdom teeth and that sort of thing. And then I applied for it and got it, which he never let me forget for the whole year, really, that he gave me that opportunity.

[00:16:12] And did you enjoy Max? I did the max factor job too in Cardiff and I I I hated every moment of it and really did. It just wasn’t for me. Did you enjoy it?

[00:16:22] I loved it. I did love

[00:16:24] It. I think there’s a few things that go with that. One was the the home team. We had a great group of people all really like in it together, you know, and there was none of this lazing around, handing over piles of patients. I lived with two of them who were two years above me in uni, so that was a great shoulder to cry on at the end of a long, long shift. But the other was it four or five of them, just just a really tight group of house. But we kind of had to be because I think we had like three. But no registrars for consultants, I think three staff grades. Well, one of the staff grades went off on maternity. Then we’re down to two. One of them went and did medicine. And then I think later on the other one did. And at one point for about a month, we had seven hos and four consultants, and that was it. And so it was a combination of, you know, the consultants getting pissed off when we called them about something very basic combined with what I really want to call them about this. So probably one of those first single swims,

[00:17:36] I think I’d recommend anyone to do it. Because it puts you in these situations that puts you under so much stress that then nothing else seems to stress to you after that.

[00:17:49] But yeah, for sure.

[00:17:50] For sure.

[00:17:51] Unfortunately for me, the first few patients we had passed

[00:17:55] Away, you know, after the

[00:17:56] Operation and I’d come straight in that situation, and the consultant was understandably stressed by the whole thing. And yeah, I found it really hard, man. I found it really, really difficult. But I still think it made a man in me. I do. I do think that, you know, I remember fracturing a few porosity back and my nurse just going berserk and eating like it was like no, nowhere near as bad as the things I’ve seen.

[00:18:27] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think I think it’s so true. Yeah, it does make a man. I mean, I remember a couple of just horrific traumas

[00:18:37] Where, yeah,

[00:18:40] Yeah, like attempted suicides. And oh, I mean, I remember going down to this one that I got a call for. Basically, it was it was bad, and I phoned my senior when I was walking down there and he was like, they said, It’s this and this and this, and I could kind of hear him on the other end. Oh my God. And he just said, Alright, try and maintain an airway, stop the bleeding. And if he dies, it’s not your fault. I was solid, solid advice on best. And yeah, those moments really do stick with you, as is like a not not.

[00:19:23] I think

[00:19:23] You’re right. You know, you can get shaken by that and go, Oh my God. But but other times you look back on it and go, Actually, this this this little bit of left route is probably not too bad, you know?

[00:19:34] Yeah, yeah. And it puts you in good stead. So your next job, you ended up doing quite a lot of ore surgery. Yeah, I can get yes, one,

[00:19:46] Yes, dear one. When I did it in the Rhondda Valley and in a little town called Treorchy

[00:19:55] And in that town, I think I ended up there once at 4am after a big party.

[00:20:05] It’s on me. It was great, you know, relatively low stress, I would say for what you’re what you’re trying to achieve in patients, but were lovely. But at the same time, some of them just like happy to be seen. And. But it was a bit of a reality check. You know, you come out of uni and you think I’m going to do this. So I’m going to I want to try and do the really good root canal. And and I suppose that was a good place to learn that situation of, you know, not everyone wants a root canal. And and I remember someone saying to us, once, you know, try not to care more about a patient’s teeth than they do because you’re going to you’re going to be tearing your hair out. I mean, yeah, all kinds of hilarious characters there, but absolutely brilliant place to learn just so much exposure.

[00:21:05] And yeah, he’s still living in Cardiff at that point.

[00:21:08] Yeah. Yeah, I was living in the bay there with Jess, my now wife. And so it was a nice, little nice little commute. Just drive up up to the valley each day as. 50 odd minutes and living down in the bay was, yeah, good fun.

[00:21:23] So you know that life of straight off the university, you’re still a new university town, you know, you kind of still got your sort of community around you and network around you. Look, I found my next job after that quite quite a bit of change. I felt lonely as a as a, you know, real person compared to the student, you know, nice sort of mix of people on VTi with me. Where did your first real job?

[00:21:54] Well, actually, so do maths facts. I’m sure you found this. You don’t really have any time to spend any money or live a life, basically. So I was earning a little bit, not much, but a little bit more than that. And no time to spend it. And that did my vote year. And Jess basically said to me, which is I’ve never been travelling and I’ve always wanted to. I thought, OK, I said, Let’s go, you know, end of this year, you’re never going to have a break in your contract ever again. You know, if it’s one year, that’s the end of that. And I’m like, Yeah, alright, cool. Six months into the details, let’s do it. We’re going to when we booked it and then I got towards the end. And yeah, towards the end of Beattie, my boss was saying, You know, I’ll offer you an associate position. Yes, I’ve come up with was how many thousands of eda’s and whatever it good money. Basically, I was thinking, Oh, that’s tempting, but we’ve bought this ticket, you know, so. So we did it. We went and best thing we ever did. I remember I was a bit a bit concerned at the time sort of thinking, you know, how am I going to come back and everyone else is going to

[00:23:08] Be way

[00:23:09] Ahead? My stunting, my career progression and whatever. And you know, all these silly things you think when you’re when you’re young, you know, I think, you know, you’ve been uni for five years and whatever you’re fresh out, you want to get going. I certainly did. Yeah, yeah. But we did it. We went, And where did you go? So start off Borneo and Bali for about a month. And then we went down to Australia a couple of weeks, five weeks New Zealand and then month in Thailand and month in Vietnam. And it’s just amazing. I just loved it, you know, and I think that was really good for me to not be so like, I think if I just got straight into it, I don’t know, maybe got a burn out or something, but it was a good slow down a bit and have a think about things. And from there we got we were getting towards the end of our travels and just said, you know, where do you want to, where you want to live? And I said, Oh, maybe sorry. And she said, Cornwall. So we ended up in Bath.

[00:24:10] So many of us were happy then, but then actually just absolutely loved Bath. And I remember sitting in this bar. Oh, amazing city. But we had to sort out flat before we got back. And before we went travelling, we printed off a load of CVS cover letters, and I think I had a few photos put together and we had them all ready to send out. And a month before he went back, we sent them out to every practise we would be happy to work at. I spend, I don’t know, 40 odd in the Bristol Bath area, but I remember sitting in a bar in Vietnam. Just Jess’s parents had very kindly gone to view some flats for us, and they were FaceTiming us looking around the flats. But they appeared to like travel between them and whatever, and we had to keep the internet connexion going. So we were buying these twenty three beers and getting more and more pissed. Looking at these flats, like, that’s amazing. I think we nearly signed up to something on the Royal Crescent through honest, but we got.

[00:25:19] How long were you away for in total? Was it

[00:25:20] Six months? Just under

[00:25:22] Six months? Yeah.

[00:25:24] So you spent all your savings? I’m pretty much what was it, backpacking packing, what were you thinking? From the husband on the one to a six month holiday?

[00:25:36] Do you know, full on, full on backpacking? I don’t know.

[00:25:42] You think sharing with others is that was it was like because the beach is so cheap over there. Yeah, because

[00:25:50] We were to actually like a joint room or shared room with one bed in. It is not it’s not that much more expensive, really. We stayed in a few dorm rooms and oh man, all those places. All those places. But you’ve got a camper in New Zealand. It was

[00:26:07] Amazing. Oh, wow. To do that whole South Island stuff.

[00:26:10] Oh yeah, I did the whole North Island, South Island five weeks.

[00:26:14] Incredible. Incredible. I mean, did you did you think about doing a year off before university?

[00:26:20] No. No, because I think I was really, I wouldn’t say overwhelmed. But I was very aware that like five year degree is a long time and one time actually that it kind of hit me, whereas I came back to Surrey just after we’d had. I don’t know if you had this, but we had like a halfway meal at two and a half years to celebrate getting halfway through the degree of sort of like miserable reminder. And I came back to Surrey and we went I was on a night out in London with just like guys from school, and they’d all finished their degree. I think they’d all just got like their first and second pay cheque and they were like, Yeah, let’s buy this place up, you know, getting the rounds in like, Oh, I don’t know if I can afford the train ticket home like, you know, uni dry patch there and that I found quite tough, actually, because I was thinking, Do you know what? I’m halfway through this degree, and all my friends are like hitting the earning now, and how am I going to catch that up and whatever? And actually then I think that’s when I kind of like solidified into with all the Dental people and whatever, you know, before that, I was living with guys from outside dentistry, which is kind of healthy, I think, for the first few years. Yeah. And then after that, yeah, really sort of got in with the Dental guys

[00:27:43] And tell me about the top in Bath.

[00:27:47] So yeah, Bath, I I got a job we live in in Bath, but I work just outside in a little town called caution. Fairly standard mixed practise. It was like two three surgeries, two associates and the hygienist and I guess it was kind of

[00:28:03] Associate led really

[00:28:04] The the owner. He had a single surgery practise on the circus in Bath, doing pretty much all only implants. And it’s great, you know, it kind of left the Dorian thing. I think I just did enough to keep the boss happy. So ticking over and that’s where I did my implant, MSI, which I couldn’t. I was a bit torn where to go, you know, I think it was like Sheffield London or Bristol, and it’s an expensive course combined with all the time off and everything. I was like, I can’t really decide between them, so I might as well do Bristol. It’s the closest and it just so happens that like pretty much all the clinical days, which is eighty five percent of the course was in

[00:28:45] Bath, about 500

[00:28:47] Yards down the road. So I felt really jammy when some people were like flying from Scotland. I think this lady from like the Isle of Man or something, and

[00:28:57] Anyway, travelling all

[00:28:59] This distance today for one day to take a suture out, you know, and I was just nipping back for lunch. So that was massively convenient. And also because my boss was heavily into his implants, he could kind of he just had an agreement with me that he’d mentor me, which I only realised later was pretty an economical way of doing things because mentoring is pretty expensive. And he basically said, Look, I won’t charge you, but as long as you once you once you get the hang of it, I can leave you alone, basically. So that was great.

[00:29:28] When did you decide? When had you decided to go into implants? Was that something you always planned to do or was it the influence of this boss in that?

[00:29:38] Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I got a taste for it, and then in the vet practise, I was in the good mate of mine, get a good buzz. He was doing implants there and he was about, I think, for four or five years. Yeah, four years ahead of me and uni. And so I could just see what he was doing and whatever. And yeah, it just got a bit of a taste for it. And then I decided when we’re travelling, it’s, you know, when we’re travelling, it kind of gave you a lot of time to think and kind of decide on a

[00:30:09] Pathway, I guess. Yeah.

[00:30:12] And then, yeah, we were there for. About four years in Bath is kind of funny, really how the Cornwall situation came about from being on the MSC. One of the guys, Tim Harris, who teaches on it, is Friends with my now boss, Mark and Mark Davies said to him There are any implant people on your course that would be interested. So he just put out an internal email to the MSC Group just saying, you know, anyone be interested as an implant job, come up in Cornwall. And I was on holiday with my wife and her family, and I saw an email come through and I was like, Oh. I might just enquire, you know, so I put my name down and Mark got back to me and said, Oh, you know, I own pure Dental in Truro Hospital. Oh bloody hell, I know pure Dental like,

[00:31:04] I think very high profile practise, right?

[00:31:07] Yeah. And I thought,

[00:31:09] Oh God,

[00:31:10] What if I put my name in for? And if I’m honest, I just thought

[00:31:15] That’s out of my depth. I’m not going to get that,

[00:31:17] But I was like, Well, you know, you don’t put your name in, you never find out. And I had a bit of an interest in I just I liked taking photos. And to be honest, it was about the round, about the time when you know the sort of Facebook dentistry is really getting going and you could just see these high profile guys posting these cases. I just had that thing in the back of my head of. It’s a good thing to do, you know, build a portfolio. I don’t think any of my I didn’t know anyone else doing that at the time. And so I just sort of thought, Well, I don’t know if I’m getting anything out of these photos, really, but these guys say it’s a good idea, so I’m going to stick it out. And then when it came to it, when on holiday, you know, Mark said, Oh, send me a CV, send me some photos and excerpts of your work. And I was like, Yeah, here you go, ping. Half an hour later, you had it. And he was. I looked great. You know, it’s pretty much yours, but let’s chat in the week when you get back from holiday and which time? I hadn’t said anything to my wife and she’s like,

[00:32:20] Well, you get off your lap, you doing your laptop

[00:32:22] On holiday.

[00:32:23] And I hadn’t told her because I was like, she will be over the Moon to move to Cornwall, but I can’t. I daren’t disappoint her and say, you know, whatever. I didn’t get it. I just turned that around because, you know, I’ve been horribly rude on my laptop. And she said, I just got a job in Truro, pure Dental. But it was for 13 months ahead. So that was a bit tricky. Going back to work and being I got a job in just over a year’s time. Moving to Cornwall and my notice periods like three months, actually actually given four months in the end. But I got within. I was doing a little bit of short term, although then I remember getting within the six month mark, but turning us in case seeing cases like, Oh, it’s a bit complex and I’m going to refer that, refer that to my boss. My nurse is looking at me like, what are we talking about? Like, I could do that. So yeah, that was a bit tricky. But yeah, it was worth it.

[00:33:24] Why was he looking for someone so early? He just a planner. The one thing

[00:33:28] I think it because we may be lazy. I think it’s because because the guy Jeremy Harris has taken over from had, you know, he was retiring, it was a long plan. You know, it wasn’t. Yeah, quick notice. So he wanted to give himself time to to look around. And I don’t know, perhaps no one has applied and

[00:33:50] Was a bit like that. It’s hard to hard to persuade people to come, come and move there.

[00:33:55] So I imagine yeah, I imagine so.

[00:33:57] Yeah, yeah. Well, when you told me Jeremy Harris, I took a gasp because he’s known for doing some huge cases for years that he’s been doing implant ology and full mouth dentistry, right?

[00:34:09] Yeah. Did you feel the same?

[00:34:11] You know, did you did you know him or have you heard of him before?

[00:34:15] I knew who he was, but I had no. I had no idea quite the extent of what he was doing, and

[00:34:23] I knew he had an honour to take over that list. Really?

[00:34:26] Yeah, a real honour. Yeah, I

[00:34:28] Mean, sometimes now even, you know, oh, unclip a chrome dentro, just like, have a look for a bit, you know, and

[00:34:35] Sit down there and

[00:34:37] Was this attachment and then, you know, patient breaks the crown and they’re like, Oh, you’re just going to do, you know, sort this out and you’re like, Oh my God, this is this is complicated. And so, yeah, really real honour, real

[00:34:50] Honour and a steep learning curve, I’m sure.

[00:34:53] Yeah, for sure. But because I had such a long time knowing I was going to start there, I remember I remember halfway through Max being like, I’ve hardly placed any Canada’s. I’ve been bottling out of it and letting all the nurses do it. So the last six months of Max, I’m going to pace at least five years a week for the rest of this. And so when I got that one year, you know, ready to go scenario, I kind of was, OK, I’ve got this job that I can either just like bury my head in the sand and try and survive it, or I’ve got 12 months to try and just nail the basics. And so pretty much from then on, I was like, Right, I’m rubber damning. Everything I’m going to make, take all the time in the world and have it go all this and just upskill as much as I can. I’ve probably made hardly any money that year, but. A long time on treatments and just try to get confident in the basics, you know, and so when I when I went to Pure, I was like, Great, I’m just going to, yeah, I’m rubber dam and everything. I’m happy with my crown preps and whatever. But the one thing Mark said to me was, You know, I like your portfolio, but it’s a lot of single single tooth density or small cases. And to work here, you’re going to need to understand full mouth, which is kind of daunting. But he said, Look, you’ve got to go and do Dawson go to the Dawson Occlusion Academy. He absolutely lives and breathes Dawson. And so if I’m honest, I we didn’t. We didn’t have a lot of occlusion

[00:36:34] Lectures at uni

[00:36:36] Or if we did, I don’t remember them particularly well,

[00:36:38] But I

[00:36:40] Had no idea what I was getting myself into go into to Dawson. And when I looked at like four modules of like three days each night, what is going on? And I sometimes find when I talk to my friends, whatever

[00:36:54] Is, you know, how

[00:36:55] I got interested in occlusion. Like what? What do you mean? Like, tap together and look at the blue dots here? And was

[00:37:03] Like, Yeah, but I think I think a lot

[00:37:06] Of people that don’t necessarily or haven’t done those sorts of courses don’t link occlusion with being able to do format rehabs and big treatment. I don’t know. I think you’re right. And actually, you know, this like study of occlusion is not about nerding out over the TMJ. I mean, yes, you end up becoming that person because, you know, just do anyway. But it’s about treating a whole mouth. And yeah, that was a huge game changer, really. That course for me, Alan,

[00:37:39] I look at your content. A lot of it is that sort of biomimetic sort of, you know, the rubber dam, these sort of protocols and that aspect I’m keen to know about, you know, the role of social media in the development of dentists because it’s very it’s very sort of fashionable to put it down. But I’ve definitely noticed that since social media dentistry has come along, the standards of young dentists, which just gone through the roof.

[00:38:13] Mm hmm. Ok.

[00:38:15] You know, it could be self-selecting and the ones I’m meeting or whatever it is. But but the standards are high and I want to know,

[00:38:22] You know,

[00:38:24] The other side of it, you know, but it’s all it’s very easy to say it’s rubbish. And you know, all the things that we know is wrong with Instagram dentistry and all that. But but what role did it play in your development as a dentist?

[00:38:37] And so, Alice, I started my Instagram account when I moved to Cornwall because

[00:38:42] That before

[00:38:43] Then I’d been taking my photos to get that portfolio together to get the private job. And I’ve got this job that was, you know, a huge leap up in what I’ve been doing. And I thought, Well, I’ve got to take photos for now, but know I could just work this job. And so as I do, I’m going to start with these Instagram accounts and it would just make me take photos. I’m going to post the case a week or whatever I decided to do. And that’s literally how I got into it, just to try and keep myself accountable, really to to taking photos and sticking at something that I’d kind of decided was a good idea and actually what I found more recently with Instagram. And I think this is where Instagram and Facebook differ, is that if you are a dentist that posts for dentists and you’re trying to post quality content or educational content or

[00:39:39] Whatever, like, it’s pretty

[00:39:42] Hard to post a lot of content, even like one a week is is time. And you know, there’ll be cases where you take take photos and you run out of time to take any more photos or it just doesn’t go well or whatever, you know. So I think for me, sometimes I’ll be in work. I’m like, you know, I’m photographing in this case, it drives you to push your your quality, for sure. I think I feel on Facebook because you’re in a big group, you only have to post, I don’t know, one case a month or whatever to stay relevant. You just got to keep your name in the hat, whereas in Instagram on Instagram. Yeah, it’s a really positive platform. There’s a lot of back slapping, and that’s cool, but you’re the only person on your page, and so you’re the only one that can keep your content going and drive it. And I guess I guess more recently, I’ve kind of flipped more towards like posting more stories and trying to keep just complete quality for my page. And also, I really like that interactive story part where you can I talk people through a case and I find a lot of people really resonate with that. I get so many nice messages like, Oh, thanks for explaining how to do that. And you know, I I definitely learn huge amounts of social media, Facebook and Instagram. You just got to be selective and careful and like, learn kind of within your limits, you know?

[00:41:10] Yeah, yeah, so so that’s kind of what I was asking is, you know, what you’ve learnt, where you’ve learnt it, which accounts you’ve learnt it from, you know, for instance, for me, someone like George Cheatin, you know, I’ve learnt so much from that guy just by looking at his Instagram. This is amazing. Yeah, yeah. And you know, I’m not even practising.

[00:41:33] But for me, it’s actually

[00:41:36] I know it’s good content when it makes me want to try the damn thing. I saw one of yours. You were using the tool. Was it you the thing? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the Liquid Dam is reporting that this is so obvious, right of this thing. But but maybe I’ll call and try that now. And it’s a lot better than the kittens, right? But but it does get a bad name as well. And and I think a lot of the bad part of it is when it’s aimed at patients and people aren’t taking care of, you know, anything other than trying to track the patient to them. Hmm. Did you have the did you have ever wanted to do a patient facing page because you’re definitely isn’t right?

[00:42:27] Yeah, it’s not. It’s not. I’ve had I think I’ve had one patient

[00:42:36] And they

[00:42:37] They came in, you know, it’s hilarious. Actually, I treated them last week and I came in and I said, Oh hell, I always introduce people to the rubber down its first filling appointment, and I said, Oh, you see one of these before? And she’s like, Yeah, on your page,

[00:42:53] I was like, All

[00:42:54] Right, cool. So that’s fine. We’re going to do this. So you’re going to tie some floss around it. No, but I feel like I should know. So, yeah, I mean, you were asking about influential pages, and I would say for sure, you know, Lincoln Harris on the right page, just the amount of quality content that God puts out that I’ve learnt huge amounts from from him. But for me now, it’s more about the little tiny things that you pick up, perhaps on a case you you’ve already done or you know how to do. But they’re doing it. One little step is different. And that’s that’s where you can just tweak and refine and you make these tiny, tiny little steps. And then you look back a year later, you’re like, Whoa, I’ve come a long way. But combined with that, like the the networking is is mad, and that’s something I’ve never, I don’t know I’ve never been good at. I never really had any intent to be involved in, you know, not not chatting to people like schmoozing people, I suppose, you know, it just doesn’t come naturally to me. But on Instagram, you start chatting to people and all of a sudden you know your chatting to people around the place. And that’s how I got to know guys like Chris O’Connor, who owns its Dental and yeah, chat to Georgia dentists every now and again. I’ve spoke to him on the phone and stuff, and especially down in Cornwall. You know, I don’t get to meet, meet and greet and, you know, go to those nice parties that I see online.

[00:44:40] I’ve spoken. I’ve worked a lot with Jason Smith and I’ve spoken to him about the Cornwall as a as a place to work and live. And there are the obvious advantages, right? But but there is that thing of if you want to fly to

[00:44:54] Portugal,

[00:44:56] You’ve got that whole journey before getting to the airport and then back.

[00:45:03] That’s funny. You said Portugal. Portugal is pretty much the only place you can fly from the UK and it’s like 40. Is that right? Is that

[00:45:10] Right? Yeah, I know you’re going to Portugal a lot. Yeah, but oh,

[00:45:19] Do you know what are so, so naive to that? As naive to that because

[00:45:23] I,

[00:45:24] You know, I grew up in Hallie, which is a £5 taxi ride from Gatwick, and I had no idea. But even living in Bath, you know, getting to Bristol Airport, I like this. This is a pain. I can’t. I can’t believe people put up with this. You know, they’ve got a

[00:45:39] Commute to the airport as a ticket.

[00:45:42] But now I’m in Cornwall two hours to anywhere, you know, get back to the the rest of the world, you get to Exeter. It’s like God, I’m only just starting. So yeah, there is that. There is that. But at the same time, you kind of having this sort of slightly more isolated situation. There’s perks to it, even in in work as well. You know, you’ve got this little community, a dentist that you can easily interact with, but at the same time, you’re not you’re not all fighting each other. There’s a lot of people down here, a lot of teeth, not that many dentists. So there’s more than enough work for everyone. And and that makes for

[00:46:19] Sort of

[00:46:20] Quite nice work environment as well.

[00:46:22] And your patient group, I know Truro has, you know, both both sides, hasn’t it? It’s actually a lot of, you know, didn’t need down there as well. But your patient group? Is it is it that sort of typical person you’d imagine who’s like retired to Cornwall and this time wants to get his teeth right? Is that is that it? Am I talking rubbish?

[00:46:48] Yes and no. Yes and no. So when I when I moved into this, you know, it’s high end private practise, I was like, OK, I’m going to have demanding veneer patients all day, every day, and I’m just going to see how it goes. And actually, it’s just not the case, I would say. I say my patients are probably three different categories. One would be what you would expect in private practise. You know, they want the best, and that’s fine. Some of them are great. Most of them are great. Some of them a bit more fussy. Then you’ve got phobic patients who basically just need time. So many of them. So I’ve done sedation training in the last few years, but so many of my sedation patients, we sedate them initially and I try and win them off it. That’s kind of my goal, and that is life changing treatment. I have a guy who he wouldn’t let us take photos even in the waiting room, he cried, Come on up the stairs the first time he ever came in and he wouldn’t sit in the chair. It was traumatic just for him to come in the practise. We did a fair amount treatment under sedation and then a couple of months ago we placed two lower implants and with no sedation and us and fulfilling. Isn’t it so good? So, so good. So, yeah, phobic patients. And then lastly, it’s like people who haven’t been in 20 years and they just they just come in and go. My teeth are wrecked. I’m going to pay for it. Just do the do what you can or do you need to do, you know, because they they they get there’s limitations with the system. They know they’ve got a lot of work to do and they just want to get it done. And some of those are fantastically rewarding as well. So, yeah, it’s not all difficult.

[00:48:28] So, you know,

[00:48:30] The kind of work that you do now, there’s quite a lot of full mouth stuff there, right? And you’re actually carrying that out now. Yeah, the conversation for the patient that comes in with, let’s say, Problem X, I mean, he might do probably he might come in saying, my front teeth are looking short. Yeah, or or whatever it is, my back is broken. Yeah. And then and then you have a look. And when you’re looking at things from that comprehensive sort of mindset, you might then turn around and say, you need. Thirty thousand pounds worth of treatment. Have you have you sort of figured out some ways of breaking that news in a sort of a piecemeal way to, you know, how how do you communicate with the patient to give them that news? Because, you know, I’m thinking, I’m thinking of my brother. My brother has a mutagenesis imperfecta and he has a full mouth of crowns. He should know better, right? He should know that when he goes to a dentist, the dentist might say, you need a big dream. But I remember my brother came back and say, the guy said it would be like 10 grand. And I said, Well, he might be. I haven’t seen him myself. How do you how did you break the news? What do you do? Tell me about it.

[00:49:44] So a lot of the time I find those patients come in and they’re like, I know it’s bad. They’re really they’re really bad ones. Say, for example, I find I find actually just slightly that some of the tooth wear cases where they don’t really know they’re quite tricky. They are. Yeah. Okay, so those ones. So my standard new patient assessment, everybody gets a set of radiographs that they need, usually set by a full set of photographs. We do the assessment and then we get out the chair, go and sit by a monitor in the corner and we talk through their photos and even the people with the nicest teeth. You put their screen on a T on a 40 inch monitor and they go, Oh my God. And so you’re instantly getting them to see the problem because you think that sounds mad. They know what’s going on with their teeth, but they don’t. And when you can actually show them. So, so let them see what’s going on is my first thing to do. The next thing is, and this is new, I don’t haven’t always done it this way, but now it’s how I always do. It is our stage people are. We’re going to take this in two stages. We’re going to do a stabilisation phase in a definitive phase and stabilisation is get your gums healthy, fill things we can fill, take out anything we can’t and get your maintenance on board. And some patients, that is a six month journey. You know, it depends on how often they want to come in, but other patients are like, Yeah, let’s do it, let’s nail this and other patients that come in every week for two months and just, you know, tidied everything up. They’ve got caries everywhere and whenever and and and then I say to them, and that’s going to end with a planning phase

[00:51:32] And

[00:51:33] I say, Well, you know, if you’re going to build a house, you wouldn’t just start putting bricks down. You’ve got to get the architect in first. And that’s where we’re going to start. We’ve got to do a plan for your mouth and talk to them about their bias a little bit. And usually they start to, you know, they see what you’re doing, you know, for example, they come in for this first film. I never started anything major. It’s like a little clues or on a six or something to start with. They come in.

[00:51:59] You treat them

[00:52:01] As you would anybody but to your best ability. You know, given topical, we’ve got a TV on the ceiling. I’m using rubber. Damn, it doesn’t hurt. They don’t drown with the water. The filling looks nice. Sometimes they have a little snooze until the rubber dam. If you really winning and they sit up there like that was all right, actually. And then, you know, sometimes they’ll go, Oh, it’s so look like on the photo and you showed them and they’re on board. They’re sold. They they’re like, OK, I feel like

[00:52:32] This guy

[00:52:32] Gets it or whatever. And then you get to the end of the stabilisation and you say, Do you want to do the planning? You know, this is a treatment plan for that going. Record your, your teeth, your bite and your jaw position. And I’m going to go away for six weeks with the technician and we’re going to plan your case in the background and then I’ll tell you what’s involved and they’ll get a wish list from them. And quite often, I’ll ask them if they have a budget because by then they’re starting to get the problem. You know, you touch on it a couple of times and you can. By doing a stabilisation phase, I find that you can really draw out people what they think about their teeth or what they hate or what. And you can go back to that of this is what I want to do to your teeth to fix them. And this is how it’s going to achieve your goal. You know, that’s that’s kind of my approach, really, but it’s always difficult. You know, I’ve had people I’ve had, I’ve had several people. We get into stabilisation. We’ve even done the planning phase, which is not for free. You know, we sit down, we show them a full mouth wax up and they go, Yeah, yeah, I’ll think about it and never come back. That’s OK. I’m OK with that like good cause they’re stable. And that makes me feel good because I know they’re healthy. Like, yes, they haven’t got the perfect bite, but they’re a heck of a lot better than when they came in. And I think I would feel a little bit maybe uneasy if I went, OK, here’s the here’s everything it’s going to cost. Yeah, and 30 grand and then never come back and I’ll go back. I. Scott Carey’s everywhere, like we could have at least sort that out.

[00:54:06] Yeah, so I guess you’re saying you use the stabilisation phase number one to get rapport. And number two, to understand their goals. And I guess they’re all hygiene. And you know, you get to know her mouth in a way isn’t, you know, the person. I mean, I’ve had right here

[00:54:24] On this podcast and you

[00:54:26] Know, he told me he sometimes does three examinations before starting treatment. And much of it is for him to work the patient out and to know whether that’s, you know, someone he’s going to work on with him. Sometimes it’s two years of of work before that final fit visit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about the actual work? I mean, you’re doing so many different things. I mean, the only part of your work that I can kind of relate to is the composite part. I mean, I know you did maybe a little bit of bleaching too, but the the buzz, the buzz of, I guess, with the full mouth cases, the buzz of everything fitting together, right? Marcano sort of buzz. Yeah, that was it.

[00:55:11] Yeah, there is that there is that. I think I’ve had several times where I’ve thought, you know, you often hear people talking about saying, you know, niche down and, you know, find your area and nail that. And I’m like, Yeah, I’m going to do that, but I haven’t found my area. You know, I I keep enjoying bits,

[00:55:29] And I wasn’t that

[00:55:30] Sure about dentures, and I had a few that didn’t go very well. So I went and did a course with Finley Sutton and I was like, Oh man, this is so good. And so now that didn’t really help me, though, because it just meant I’m doing more stuff now. We’ve got a great practise. Graham, it does end, though, and so I might just not even going to bother with that. Why? Why try when he’s already nailing it? So but apart from that, I just enjoy it. Oh, really? And it’s yeah, it’s how it fits together. But it’s getting I get huge satisfaction when I’m doing a crown Prav. I’m like, Man, that’s that’s crisp, you know? Or, yeah, a few composites and even all the little bits, you know, not just pretty anatomy, but a good contact point and all the bits that go with it. Just I find it really like just personally satisfying. And I think that’s why I struggle to. Some people would say, Oh, you know, you can try and do everything. I think I just a bit of a dabble, really and and

[00:56:31] Just

[00:56:32] I can’t inside.

[00:56:34] I can’t decide. I think, look, the most important thing is that you’re happy that it’s the most

[00:56:38] Important thing now.

[00:56:40] So as long as you’re happy, that’s it. But but I think I don’t know. To me, it looks like you’re going down the route of being a teacher of some sort. I mean, you’ve done some courses anyway. And it’s an important question, right?

[00:56:56] Should you teach

[00:56:57] More than one subject? And I think you can do. I think you can. You could. You can teach isolation, you can teach composite. You can teach,

[00:57:05] I don’t know.

[00:57:05] Can you teach in parts that probably some aspects of it, right? And you know, I have this conversation with Dipesh a lot. You know, Dipesh Palmer, yeah, he’s very talented in lots of different areas. And then the question of, you know, is what’s what’s the someone like Newton file like at implants? I don’t know if you’re going to be a teacher, you’re going to be a year course teacher. It sounds like because there’s so many different parts of dentistry that you’re interested in, isn’t it?

[00:57:40] Yeah, I don’t, you know, I don’t know the teaching thing for me.

[00:57:44] Just like it just happened.

[00:57:46] I didn’t. I hadn’t. I have no desire to to to teach and, you know, show off my skills or whatever. I just I really enjoyed teaching, actually. And yeah, when we ran the course this year, the first one we did was in, well, we actually set it up to do the first one in Newcastle and then the dates so happened that it failed, that the Baath course was going to be a month before we were like, Oh crap, we better get a move on, like our start date just moved a month forward. And so we’re doing this, this composite course with myself,

[00:58:25] Chris

[00:58:25] O’connor, who owns Incidente. When a guy Olly Bailey, who’s a friend of his

[00:58:30] Works up

[00:58:31] In Newcastle with him,

[00:58:32] A fantastic clinician

[00:58:35] And I’ve never met either of them. I chatted to Chris, seen him on Zoom, Zoom and Zoom a few times and we were kind of on the same page or whatever. I sent him my lecture and he was like, Oh, put it all together, and I had never given a lecture. I think, I mean, yeah, I don’t think I’d ever given a lecture in front of like dentists. I mean, I’ve done, I’ve done. I’ve done a 30 minute presentation at uni. Imperio the I knew nothing about, and I did I did a rubber dam webinar in lockdown, which I just I really enjoyed it. I just liked that kind of just telling people like This is what I do, and this is difficult. This is how you can make it work. We went to this course and that’s like, I don’t actually know how you can practise a one hour lecture. You can’t practise two days. So I spent like, I know what I’m going to say, but I don’t know how long it will last. You know, is this enough for two days? Yeah. And I basically planned what was going to say on the first slide and everything else. I knew all the other slides, I knew all the pictures there. My case is a new kind of the topics I wanted to cover, but just pretty much freestyle the rest of it because it was just talking about what I did every day. It wasn’t like, OK, I’ve got to have all these papers to back up this, I’m saying and whatever and defend yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And yeah, I really enjoyed it, and it seemed to go fairly well. So that was my like kind of first experience with teaching, really. And yeah, happy to continue it. It was really good fun. But yeah, I’ve got no major plans to set up the HILLENBURG in one year course in, you know, whatever you want to pick out my Instagram page.

[01:00:29] But do you see this? You do see what I mean by confidence, right? I mean, the next man would have said, Well, I’ve never talked before. I’m not up for this. I’m not going to do this. Or, you know, or or it wouldn’t have gone so well, but it just jumped into it and did it.

[01:00:43] Yeah. But the thing was, I was a bit like, if I don’t say yes to this, you know, when am I going to get an opportunity to teach a course like this? It’s just not. It’s just not going to happen, so I thought I

[01:00:53] Heard they picked you up from your account, your Instagram account. Is that how it happened?

[01:00:58] I think so. Yeah, kind of be kind of. Yeah, so I mean, I got chatting to Chris on on Instagram. I asked him a question. I think that like drew us into this funnel of nerd occlusion chat that he’s like, I like, he’s like,

[01:01:15] This

[01:01:17] Is guys as sad as I am, it’s Saturday night and he’s still messaging me. And then actually me, Chris Jaz Gulati. A couple other guys, my buddy Vijay and Richard McIndoe just started a

[01:01:32] Little online study club

[01:01:34] Just out of the blue, and we each that was it. Actually, we each gave a lecture on that and I said I’d go first and I gave a lecture on suturing, which I just wrote from this sort of advanced soft tissue course I’d done, and they had this really amazing bit on suturing. And so I told everyone, Right, you’ve got to bring you’ve got to you’ve got to bring a suture kit, some some sutures and a banana and a scalpel. And we did this suture lecture. And Chris, he’s like, I don’t do any suturing, but I’m so into this now. And that was basically that’s what I think where he went, Hey, let’s do. That’s what he basically said. Let’s do something together. It just came from there.

[01:02:17] All right. I’ve never done this before, but I’m going to try it this time. Yeah. I want your Altenberg in three top tips. I’m going to I’m going to fire the subjects. Okay? And I just want you to just think too much about actually to fire out your three top tips on rubber down

[01:02:32] Through a rubber down start. Easy. Don’t throw yourself in at the deep end. It’s just stressful. Give yourself time. Plan a little bit of extra time and

[01:02:46] Something practical and practical.

[01:02:48] Give yourself space when you’re isolating. So if you’re going to treat a lower six isolate camp, the seven and isolate, at least to the four 14th isolation is like my standard quadrant.

[01:03:00] I mean, suturing three top tips

[01:03:02] On suturing,

[01:03:06] You

[01:03:08] Get careful.

[01:03:15] Take your time to get in position. Don’t be bending over backwards with your arm twisted just to try and get the suture in place, move around, get comfortable and move the suture within the holder to get it in the right place so you can sit comfortably with your first throw. Get the not to lie flat and then what?

[01:03:38] What, what? What’s going on? Say that?

[01:03:43] Explain that. Okay, so when you’re tying your suture, they say you’re using a four 000 vehicle resizable suture. You’re going to throw the needle by. So wrapping around the suture holder and then you going to pull tight. That’s your first throw. You’re going to pull in the direction

[01:04:03] That the needle

[01:04:05] Went through the tissue. And if you’re not sure what if what you’re supposed to look like, the knot should lie flat, okay? And if you have it flat against the government and if you’ve ever done this, it will look like it’s wrapped over each other. Not like a little ball. Yeah, that’s how you get your suture tight. And then the second throw ties tighten that locks the first throw and you can’t rectify it with the second throw. You can’t do a crap job on the first one and then save it on the second one, pulling it really hard. That’s that’s basically the

[01:04:37] Crux of it. And much of much of successful implant ology

[01:04:42] From the aesthetic sort of

[01:04:43] Perspective. Suturing is a massive part of that, right?

[01:04:46] Oh yeah, for sure. That’s why I love it. I just I find it really quite sort of relaxing, you know, at the end of the procedure. I used to I used to be like, Oh man, get this wound closed down stress. This was a hard case. Now, like, OK, let’s chew. Let’s close this up. Let’s put some nice sutures in and relax a bit.

[01:05:09] Three top tips on composites. How many top three they it’s your fault for being good at everything. So, so

[01:05:21] Good. So one comes by Oh man, so many of them. Yeah, yeah. I would say take if you do a class to take your time to get your matrix, whatever you’re using, set up in place and the rest will be quite straightforward. Don’t just rush that bit and then be like, OK, now I’ve got to sort this mess up. Use a good bonding system, so I’m an optic bond AFL fan. You know, there’s decent self etched pieces out there, clear feeling that sort of thing. But do you use a decent system and know how to use it? So we do a little seminar in the course. It’s like an hour section, which Chris does, and it’s

[01:06:12] I’ve seen him to

[01:06:14] Four times down, I think, and it’s just brilliant. He goes through how, you know, basically what you’ve got in the drawer and how to use them differently.

[01:06:23] Yeah.

[01:06:23] And and isolate it.

[01:06:27] Yeah. Read the instructions, right? So many people don’t read the instructions. Yeah, sure. It’s interesting for sure. I wouldn’t worry

[01:06:35] About running out and running.

[01:06:39] I want to. I want to move on to darker days. We ask everyone on this podcast this question. It’s around either something you did that you later on regretted doing clinically or, you know, your most difficult patient, the most difficult management patient, something we can all learn from that. Hmm.

[01:07:03] I would say and this is so earlier I said about my sort of stabilisation and definitive phase, and I said, I haven’t always done that. And I got a little bit burnt once with a tooth wear case. There’s a composite rehab. And I did the full wax up. Lovely lady and plan the case. And I said, Look, you’ve got these two crowns on your Prav molars on the left. It would be ideal to replace them at the same time to get your bite right and to make everything look the same. She was like,

[01:07:44] Ok, well, I get that.

[01:07:45] That’s ideal, but it’s a bit out of my budget. So that’s fine. I can make it work. That’s no problem. But we just needed to, like, discuss that first. There’s a few other little bits. So we did the composite rehab and there was a situation. I can’t think what it was, but basically she saw a colleague of mine at a review and she she said a few strange things throughout. But she she said to my

[01:08:12] Friend Alan tried to

[01:08:13] Scratch these crowns on purpose when he was going around the composite because he wanted me to replace them because he wanted me to spend more money.

[01:08:21] And, well,

[01:08:24] The guy I was working with, he’s a legend. He doesn’t, he lacks a filter. And he said, OK, so

[01:08:37] So crowns

[01:08:39] Are crowns are glazed in a furnace when they’re made. And that’s the only way to get a glaze on them. So I’m going to have a look at your mouth in a minute and. If the guy is damage, then then Alan, scratch those crowns, but that glaze is in intact, then then you’re lying there like, just check it. Yeah, have a look. So we had a look just he struggled with. I don’t know what to say, but that glaze is fine.

[01:09:19] And he just sat in silence and stared

[01:09:23] As she said she went, she she didn’t lose it, but she was

[01:09:27] Like, No, he did it. He scratched them.

[01:09:29] He tried to do so. She complained. She went to the boss. So now she’s requested to see, see the boss. And you know, I’m thinking, Oh, did I? The polish that margin perfectly on the concept, you know, we see each other’s work, but you know, it’s not common that he’s going to like, inspect it like that and pick it apart. And he had a look and he just said, really sorry. Like? I worked, it works great. There’s nothing wrong here. He said, I’ll

[01:10:00] Pay for you to

[01:10:01] Go and have a consultation anywhere in the county. We’ll pay for that. Get a second opinion. And it went on and on and

[01:10:10] She kind of

[01:10:11] Came to see me and I was like, Oh, got some alarm bells going here? This is just getting out of hand. And in the end, I just sat down, had a chat to my boss and he’s like, Look, I think we should just refund her and cut our losses or whatever. And you know, it was a five to five composite build up case upper and lower. It wasn’t a quick fix, cheap treatment. And I said, Yeah, let’s do it. Which gave all the money back and said, Don’t come back. And that was like afterwards I was reflecting on it with my nurse. I just said, You know, how do we how do we avoid that? You know, how do I? I didn’t see that coming. And it’s because I didn’t know I didn’t know her, and I probably would have picked that out of her in a stabilisation. The tricky thing is, I know everyone needs stabilisation. You know, if they’ve got a clean mouth and a bit of teeth where there’s not like you’re going to do a load of, you know, composite. So in first, maybe do a bit of whitening and slow things down a bit. But yeah, now I I definitely have a more like if I get a gut feeling or whatever. Yeah, I try and slow it down a little bit, get to know the patient for sure. And some of the some of the former rehabs now that I’ve finished are just on the loveliest patients and I’ve got one in next week that we’re nearly finishing. I’m I’m looking forward to seeing her. She’s such a good patient and we’re super busy at the moment. Hopefully remains beer and I just feel like, you know what? Life’s too short to ruin your day with those patients. I’d much rather

[01:11:46] Say I’m sorry, and sometimes I

[01:11:47] Just sometimes I to say this is too difficult for me or

[01:11:52] Whatever. It’s a difficult it’s a difficult one, that one, because when you explained it to me, I thought, Well, there must be a juicier story than this, but she’s questioning your integrity there, not your not your actual work. And so I could understand how that must have felt very strange. Hmm. And you’re right. You know, not not knowing someone is is the best. I mean, for all we know, she’s a paranoid person and questions everyone’s integrity, right? But but you know, when when you look back on it, that’s that’s where you figured things could have been improved insomuch as you didn’t know her long enough before going into something?

[01:12:31] Mm hmm. I think that’s one of those one of the things. It’s probably one of the sort of my weaknesses, I suppose, like I was really disappointed in that, you know, I was really sort of like, Oh, I would never do that. So it was disappointing that someone would think that. But you know, you live and learn and hopefully dodged a few of those since then.

[01:12:53] What about with implants? You must have had some situations with implants.

[01:12:56] No, actually. Yeah, yeah, I had one. I had one where I was doing a sinus lift, and it’s like it was annoying. It was six and a seven, and the seven needed just an internal sinus lift like some style. But, you know, just crystal and. I’ve done the six, I was really happy with the position of it, and then the seven I went to do, I perforated the sinus. So annoying. And then I looked at it and I sort of weigh it all up and I decided to close rather than do a lateral window and try and fix it. I think I’d already placed one implant in the procedure was getting on, and it’s quite a big toe. I’m going to close. And then I left it to heal and then went back to it and it just had real. It is just impossible to then get those two implants parallel in the right place. And I know it sounds really minor, but it’s just it was. It was a. The patient didn’t really notice and it was compromised. But that’s something I find really difficult with implants is that, you know, composites, crown preps. You can like, tweak and tweak and refine. And and if if it’s not perfect, well, you could do it again. Implants, I really find the I think, you know, that sort of perfectionist side.

[01:14:26] I find that

[01:14:26] Difficult to when you get not even complications, just like, you know, someone doesn’t heal as you’d expected or you do a roll flap, you don’t get as much tissue out of it. Why didn’t that work as textbook? And that I find really frustrating. But maybe that’s just an experience, and I’ve only been doing implants right now for four or five years or so. Yeah, that’s that’s one of the difficulties in implants for me.

[01:14:56] Yeah. Well, it’s much less predictable is there. And as soon as you bring soft tissues, then it’s much less predictable. And you’re right, the finality of that placement, you know, once it’s in, it’s just full.

[01:15:08] Yeah, yeah.

[01:15:09] I mean, I had another one, I had another one. There was another central.

[01:15:13] She’s a smoker, but she quit.

[01:15:16] And I don’t know, just the tissues just did not hear well. It’s slightly slightly opened up a little bit on healing and she got she got more recession that I’d anticipated. And after I was like, Oh, maybe I should have done different flap design and blah. And she came from London and she’d seen some. She’d seen Richard Lee in London, top guy who actually went to go see actually a few months back before he moved to New Zealand. Just the loveliest bloke. Top, top dentist. And she used to be seen by him and she said, Oh, look, maybe Richard. So you basically had the implants fine with grafting and stuff. But she had some recession said. So maybe, maybe Richard can do something about it. I was like, hopefully.

[01:16:09] So I messaged

[01:16:10] Him was like, Hey, man, do you recommend it? He’s like, Yeah, go and see Sanjay down the road. So I messaged Sanjay, and it’s difficult. And I I don’t know. Yes. And he said, Yeah, yeah, and I don’t know. I don’t know these guys. Okay, yeah. But I didn’t know him, and all I had was on Richard’s word that this guy’s a good guy. And he end up calling me and I sent I sent the case over and all this. I sent the radiographs over and he called me, Oh man, is he going to say, like, you’ve really balls this laugh or whatever? And he’s like, Mate, I think you got unlucky. He’s like, It looks good. Your implant positions nice and blah blah blah. I think you’ve gotten lucky with the healing. I’m like, So glad you said that. But it doesn’t really help that he’s like, Yeah, I can sort this out. Like, don’t worry, she didn’t go and see him in the exit. It cost him whatever she want to go down there. And actually, I’ve been trying to get back in to finish it and put this

[01:17:06] Permanent crown on.

[01:17:06] But she’s she’s like, she’s so she looks like, Yeah, it’s cool. The temporary looks great. Yeah, but it’s not meant to be on as long as it is. Just come back and finish it. So I don’t know. She’s not too upset about it, which is kind of unfortunate.

[01:17:18] I’ve we’re at to close it out soon, but I want to find out your plans

[01:17:24] For the future.

[01:17:25] Is there going to be a dental practise down the line? Are you happy as an associate? Are you thinking that way?

[01:17:33] I think I’m happy as an associate. You know, I just I don’t think you can do it all. And for me, like the move to Cornwall, so I don’t work Mondays and that work life balance is like everything, really. You know that not working the Monday? Yeah, sometimes I’ll work like do some lecture staff and whatever, and I do stuff in the evenings and

[01:17:59] Yeah, whatever.

[01:18:00] But like if I had a practise, something else would have to give.

[01:18:04] And and I don’t know,

[01:18:08] I love people, but doing it for like dealing with people, you know, I’m not very good in conflict. I think I’d be too soft. I think I’d just be like trying to be the one’s mate.

[01:18:22] Yeah, that that is me too. I’ve got a partner who handles. Yeah, you don’t have. You don’t have to do it all by yourself. You could have a partner. Yeah. Practise manager or whatever. You know,

[01:18:34] Maybe one day, I don’t know.

[01:18:36] So, you know, you’re one of the sort of the people I look at and how many years post-graduation are you now?

[01:18:42] Nine, twenty twelve. Ok, just come up to ten years.

[01:18:47] Yes, if the way you’ve.

[01:18:49] It’s so funny, isn’t it, because if as a as a Dental student, if I told you, yeah, 10 years qualifying, there’d be a guy sitting here saying, you know, for your early stage in your career, you’ve done really well. You think you think, what the hell is he talking about? But then once you get into it, you realise stuff takes years to learn, right? Yeah. But yeah, so for you, for where you’re at 10 years out, it really it’s impressive to see what you’ve achieved. Thank you.

[01:19:15] I appreciate that.

[01:19:17] No, it is.

[01:19:19] Listen, let’s

[01:19:20] Finish it off with Prav know not with us, but perhaps final questions. It’s a bit it’s a bit dark on your deathbed. Yeah, your nearest and dearest around you. One of three pieces of advice you’d give them.

[01:19:39] Um. I think I’d say don’t chase the money. Like. I know a lot of it and a lot of times people say about, you know, you’ve got to enjoy your work, but also like not I enjoy it, but also just do it to your best. And that’s that’s I don’t know. I’ve tried to do that. I think just try and just do the best and the money will sort itself out eventually, hopefully. So, yeah, don’t don’t don’t chase the money and make

[01:20:13] It a quick buck.

[01:20:16] I think just also be to be honest with people like, you know, I think life gets difficult if you’re trying

[01:20:24] To

[01:20:26] Cover things up or, you know, just just be honest with people throughout, and things should be a bit easier. And and I think maybe like, yeah, something that’s fairly new ish to me, but just try and try and get a work life balance like it’s not all about about the work. And I guess looking back about like when I came out of uni and max backs, I’m like, Yeah, let’s hit the ground running. And my wife is like, Yeah, let’s go travelling, chill a bit. Yeah, great. That worked for me. And now we’ve moved to Cornwall and

[01:20:57] I’ve got to got that extra day

[01:20:58] To spend time with family

[01:21:01] Just to get that

[01:21:01] Balance. And and you know, it’s all about being happy, isn’t it? Really, it’s not about

[01:21:07] How do you find it as a dad, as a new dad? It’s tough, isn’t it?

[01:21:12] I love it. Do you know last week was 16 months old, my little boy, Jamie? And last week was the first time I opened the door and he just said, Oh, daddy’s home. And he came running to the door like with his arms out, like, Oh,

[01:21:28] This is so good, you can’t be that. Yeah, yeah. The final final question. It’s kind of like a fantasy dinner party, though. Okay. The dinner party, three guests that are alive. And.

[01:21:52] I think the thing I have, James, that he Castor, I really love that guy is so funny. James Acaster, he’s a he’s a comedian and OK, oh, you should check him out. He’s just the American knows he’s a Brit. He’s a bit like 8:00 a.m. Yeah. He’s like a friend is like a bit like Josh Widdicombe. He’s just like an awkward Brit.

[01:22:14] Secular sickens

[01:22:16] Me. Who else? Maybe Clarkson, I reckon he’s an eagle, he’s got some stories that you know, are not allowed to be aired on TV. Yeah, yeah. And oh, good, three, maybe I should have something a bit more serious. I don’t know. Maybe like. Maybe Jordan Peterson, he’s pretty. Oh, wow. He’s got some good, some good stuff to say every now and again.

[01:22:59] Yeah. Like you said, Michel. Brilliant minds. It’s been wonderful having you. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing it. I’ve really enjoyed that. And you know, I’m sure

[01:23:10] We’ll see each

[01:23:11] Other if we can get you out of Cornwall sometime. I’ll be there. I’ll be there. Sure. Sure. All right. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you.

[01:23:21] Thanks for having me. Thank you.

[01:23:24] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

[01:23:35] Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:23:40] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it.

[01:23:54] If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget

[01:24:05] Our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] He was a dentist, and we were talking about what we like to do, and he was just like to slap on veneers and, you know, like, that’s my my thing and I’m making loads of money at the moment. What do you like to do? And I was like, Oh, I like to modulate microbiomes. And he was like, Where’s the money at that? And that is a problem. I mean, it is expensive for me in the sense that we have to do microbiome testing and we have to do some of this.

[00:00:26] Definitely money.

[00:00:27] There is, but it’s

[00:00:29] There’s no doubt about

[00:00:30] That. We need to work on. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s never going to be the same as doing a smile makeover. And that’s the problem and also with the microbiome because it’s non shedding and because it’s essentially quite stagnant. Once you get the bad bacteria out, that patient could be actually good for the rest of their lives. They might just need some modulating treatment for like six months and then they’re good.

[00:00:55] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one

[00:01:01] With emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts

[00:01:08] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki

[00:01:12] Gives me great pleasure to welcome two sisters onto the podcast. We’ve had lots of different family combinations, but I don’t think we’ve had two sister dentists on the podcast. Ariane and Victoria Samson. You couldn’t look them up on Instagram as the Dental sisters. That’s correct, isn’t it? That third Dental sisters and interesting? I’ve known these guys for a long time, but both have lots of interesting stories as far as their career go. Guys, welcome to the show.

[00:01:40] Thank you so much for having us.

[00:01:41] Thank you. It’s very exciting to be here.

[00:01:44] This would normally start with the sort of the back story. Where were you born? How did you grow up? What kind of kids were you? Who’s older? You guys twins? It was a story. Yeah, your twins are.

[00:01:57] You’re going to have to guess.

[00:01:58] Are you twins?

[00:01:59] No, but a lot of people think that a lot of

[00:02:01] People think that, oh, I see. Ok, I’d say Victoria’s all. Oh my God, I’m going to leave the podcast now. I’m done

[00:02:09] Already. I mean, the podcast is going to be being you now.

[00:02:13] Look, we’ll cut that out. I’d say, I’d say, Adrienne

[00:02:18] Barrie, go, I’m back, I’m

[00:02:20] Back now. So yeah, the back story, how you grew up, why you became dentists, why don’t you start off victory?

[00:02:29] So I’m I’m the younger sister. I didn’t ever really actually want to be a dentist until I was older. I would say the Aria definitely had an influence. And we have a lot of other family who are dentists, too. But I originally, when I was like 14, 15 years old, I literally just wanted to be a businesswoman. That was literally my idea. I don’t know what that meant, but that’s what I wanted to do. And then as I was growing older, I just I realised I was very good at science. I quite like talking to people. And then I decided being the classic Iranian kind of route that dentistry might be a good option for me. Seeing our younger go through it to, I realise that actually it’s quite a nice profession and you can really do a lot with it and it’s quite flexible. And I started, Yeah, I became a dentist, and here I am now.

[00:03:19] But where did did you guys grow up in the US?

[00:03:21] So I was born in Luxembourg, and then we moved to the UK and then lived in the US for a little bit and then back to the UK again. So that’s why we’ve picked up an accent along the way.

[00:03:34] So how old were you when you left the U.S. the final time?

[00:03:37] I was, I think, like eight, eight years old.

[00:03:41] Ok, you’ve been here since then?

[00:03:43] Yeah, yeah. So it’s been ages, but I just never, I don’t know. The accent just never left,

[00:03:48] Although I think a lot of people think my accents stronger, so I think between the two of us. You don’t sound as American,

[00:03:56] Did you guys go to the American school in London? I did. Oh, that’s why. Yeah.

[00:04:01] Ok. So I was in the American system until I was 13, and I definitely didn’t lose very much of the accent.

[00:04:11] So tell me, what about your story? I mean, you enlisted dentistry before so. How did you end up going to dentistry

[00:04:19] When I was at school? I was one of those kids. I was pretty good at everything. I didn’t particularly excel the entire subject, but I was OK at everything, and there wasn’t anything that that spoke to me, particularly except for art. I was such an art kid, and because I didn’t know what I wanted to do, our mom took it upon herself to organise a lot of very varied work experience opportunities for me. And so I did dentistry and orthodontics. But then also I did reinsurance underwriting. I did corporate law. I did so many other bits of work experience and really random industries just to try and get an idea of what it is that I liked. And all of it was really boring for me at 16, except for dentistry, which was marginally less boring for me because observing. No, it’s not fun and you don’t really get a proper sense of what it is because you don’t even understand what’s going on.

[00:05:29] Do you remember which dentists you observed?

[00:05:31] Yeah, it was a more odd Milani affair. Oh, and I spent two weeks with him over a summer break and he looked at me standing there in the corner, trying to be polite and not get in the way. And he was like, You’re not going to learn anything standing over there in the corner. Get stuck in. Hold the suction. And I actually did something during the work experience, which I think a lot of people never have that opportunity to do. And so I did really enjoy it. The orthodontic work experience that I did with Siamak Bagheri, he was my orthodontist, so he did my teeth and I did experience with him and Paretta also. And from a personal perspective, the massive change that happened to my face and my own self-confidence with my own orthodontic treatment made me within dentistry, particularly interested in orthodontics. So when I finally did decide to do dentistry, I did it to do orthodontics

[00:06:38] Really like in the third year of your dental school thinking I will be an orthodontist.

[00:06:42] You knew I hadn’t started dental school yet and I thought, I will be an orthodontist.

[00:06:47] Oh, I see.

[00:06:48] And then a lot of different things throughout the training reinforced that. And one of them as as superficial and vapid as it sounds, we had our first ever orthodontic lecture in our first year just as an introductory lecture by Professor Almagro Hall. And he was so cool and I was like, I find orthodontists very cool and I want to be part of this cool group. And and then I realised when we actually got into stuck into the clinical aspect that I do really enjoy it.

[00:07:20] When you say he was cool, he wasn’t like Harley Davidson and guitar, he was. No, I get it. I get it. I’m joking. So YouTube, did you both study in the same place?

[00:07:35] Yeah. Yes. Parts of London.

[00:07:38] Oh, really? I didn’t get in there.

[00:07:41] We weren’t there at the same time, though.

[00:07:44] We just missed each other. So a lot of people mistake us or they think we’re twins or we kind of look similar. And so when I started and Brian had just left, a lot of professors would get really confused and they would like I would literally walk in like five minutes early to my lecture and they would just be shouting at me and be like, You’re late again. Like, How are you always late? I’m like, What are you talking about? This is the first time I’ve ever met you and was because lovely Ariane had left and left a really nice mark for me. But with that being said, she also did get me into the good books of some of the professors, too, so some of them loved me as well.

[00:08:20] Exactly. You got automatic friends because of me.

[00:08:23] Yeah, yeah, I bet. I mean, did you did you did you advise her to come and join, you know, to go do it at the same university and all of that? No.

[00:08:32] Oh, I. I didn’t particularly love my time at university, especially at the beginning. And in fact, I wanted to drop out of dentistry after the first term or second term. Like Christmas of my first year, I knew I wanted to drop out and quite a lot of different reasons. I didn’t like dentistry at the very beginning. It was very science heavy and I was the art kid. The science didn’t appeal to me that much. I could do it, but I was not interested in it and I didn’t love the the commute to university. I didn’t get halls and from a social aspect, it was a bit difficult and I just wasn’t enjoying it and I decided to apply for law. So during my first year of dental school, I I reapplied through UCAS to do law.

[00:09:28] Oh wow.

[00:09:28] And I got into Durham, which was the university that I wanted to go to for that. And my mom, I don’t ask me how this made any logical sense. My mom said, Sit your first year Dental school exams so that you can tell your law friends next year that you sat first year Dental school exams. I was like, Yeah, that makes sense. I’ll do that. And so luckily, I sat first year dental school exams a bit half arsed because I knew I was leaving and I passed by one point six percent and they sat me down. The professor sat me down being like, We’re really worried about your progress and Dental school because you only pass by one point six percent. I was ecstatic. I was like, You have no idea how little work I put in, and I passed by one point six percent. And at that point I was like, You know what? I’m a year end. I managed to pass without doing that much, and I might as well see it through because towards the end of that first year, it started getting better for me. And I’m so glad that I did, because I think actually law is not the profession for me.

[00:10:36] What were you like at that school, Victoria?

[00:10:38] Yeah, I was. I mean, actually, for the first three years of Dental School, I was not very involved with anything. I literally would rock up to lectures, sit in the back, leave. I wasn’t, you know, into any societies or applying for any awards or prises or anything like that. And then in my fourth year, there was an Erasmus. A Stockholm, and they were doing like applications, and you had to be active in the societies and and actually be doing quite well, and I was quite at that point. I was quite arrogant, like I would just walk in and take my exams leave. I wasn’t very into the university, if that makes sense. And then because I really wanted to go to this Erasmus and Stockholm, I started just working like a madman and I was in every society I was trying to like, you know, be friends with everyone and just really, really, I really wanted to go. And so thankfully, I got in, did my Erasmus and Stockholm and met some incredible people there who were all very like minded to me. And I think that really had a massive effect on me making friends with people from around the world who were so similar to me, but also just loved dentistry. And then in my final year of uni, I just became like the complete opposite, and I was just an absolute like. I was just working all the time, like I was applying for every single award, like I just wanted to just finish with a bang, if that makes sense. So I think I made up for it in my final year. But the first three or four years I really did nothing.

[00:12:10] I bet. I bet arriving on the Whitechapel Road from St John’s would be a bit of a bit of a culture shock. I bet it was. Was it the first time you saw that? Do you think, what the hell is that? Yeah.

[00:12:25] I love it. And I was at the old Dental School, Victoria. Did you go to the old

[00:12:28] Dental school where you were building and it just closed when I came at that point, it was just like, All right,

[00:12:35] That was beautiful.

[00:12:36] But it was. Yeah, yeah, I was quite lucky.

[00:12:40] I remember the first I didn’t go to the to the what do they call it, the where you show around the university open now? Yeah, I didn’t go to the open day. And so my first day in White Chapel was my first day of university and I came out of White Chapel Station and there was a man and it was such a comical situation. There was a man in this big raincoat and he opens his raincoat and he has gold chains and watches. I was like, I thought this was just in movies. I didn’t think I’d ever see this in real life. And that was such a significant sign of of the area at the time because actually, it’s such a cool area now. Yeah.

[00:13:24] Yeah, that’s right. So, OK, both of you, you’re qualified five years ahead of Victoria. Is that right? Yeah. So then you then went in, became what did what do you do next? What was your next move?

[00:13:38] Because I wanted to do orthodontics, I had to do go through the motions of for the application, which the first part was to do a year of Max Fox, which I did at Northwich Park and the Northwest London hospitals. And that was actually the first time that I really veered off course in terms of my ambitions to be an orthodontist. That was one of the best years of my life. And the stress of it, the terrible hours, the on call, the gore, the emotions of that year of Max Fox. I loved every second of it, every second of it. And I very seriously thought to myself, I think I might not do orthodontics. I think I’ll do Max Fox. Wow. And after that year of Max Fox, I did two months more of Max Fox in Cambridge at Addenbrooke’s. Then I got a pedes post at the Royal London, and Pete’s posts were like, I think they still are there like gold dust. They’re so hard to come by. So as soon as you hear about one, you have to go. So that’s why I left Adam Brooks only after two months started the post at the Royal London, and I still had Max Fox in the back of my head. And so I applied for medicine while I was doing pedes, and sometimes it takes just writing and sending off your application for you to really realise what it is that you want. And as soon as I put my application for medical school through the post I was, I actually I don’t want to do it, but I needed to go through that motion to know that I’ll never regret the decision of not having tried for Max.

[00:15:19] I mean, the fact you enjoyed all 30 house jobs is amazing to me. I did an oral surgery hassle and hated every second of it. I did not like it. So, you know, I guess you in that sort of in between. So do you now? Do you now think, you know, if life had turned that way, you do you regret it to some extent? Or are you fully happy that you never went that direction?

[00:15:43] I’m fairly happy. I never went in that direction. I think if I weren’t an orthodontist but I was still in dentistry, then I would have done my X-Box. But I really feel like an orthodontist, so I’m happy with it.

[00:15:57] What about you, Victoria? What was your first move out of dental school? What was the first thing you do?

[00:16:03] So I did my bit and in London, so I stuck around and then I wasn’t sure if I wanted to specialise or not, a lot of people told me I should follow my sister’s footsteps and specialise. And I was very interested in ended on text, and I just loved to get Root Canal. So that was actually where I was going to go down. And then when I finished, I was finishing up my year and I started to shadow other dentists because I wanted to see what other types of dentistry were like and what I wanted to do. So I was shadowing. I was taking a day off of work to go and shadow other dentists, private NHS specialist, general dentists, everything. And I kept on shadowing them and realise that actually, I love general dentistry and I love the fact that you can walk in and you can see anyone and you can be treating a six year old child and then treat an eighty five year old for a root canal straight after. And I found it very exciting and just kept me on my toes, and I was meeting all of these amazing people like, I mean, obviously I Ariana’s job is amazing, but for me, I wouldn’t be able to just see a certain age group or do a certain treatment. I like the fact that I can do so many different things, so I decided that I would become a general dentist, but I would kind of explore everything. And I’m one of those people who likes to kind of learn everything and then and then decide what I want to do afterwards. So I was doing a ton of courses and I went into the general dentistry. I started working part private half the week and then part NHS. And then about a year ago, I made the shift to fully private and now I. I still do general dentistry, but I have a few things that I kind of don’t want to say specialise in, but things that I focus on and that I really like doing well.

[00:17:53] I know you’ve got this role research interest in the oral microbiome, but that’s not what you’re referring to. You’re referring to it as dentists. What kind of things do you like doing?

[00:18:03] Well, actually, I do do a lot of work on the oral microbiome, but on my patients. So yeah, so I’ve started to when I was doing my research, I was realising that it’s not necessarily the quantity of plaque. That’s the issue in terms of gum disease or decay, but it’s actually the quality and what bacteria you have in your mouth. I’m sure we’ve all had patients who have what seems like a very clean mouth, and the patients got excellent oral hygiene, but somehow they’ve just got raging gum disease and you kind of blame it on like their immune system. You’re like, Oh yeah, it’s probably your body’s not reacting very well or something like that. But what I was finding was I was starting to do microbiome tests on these patients, and I would screen their mouths for the top 20 kind of pathogenic bacteria. And I was finding that a lot of these patients would have residual bacteria in their mouths from maybe bad habits 10 years ago. And if we were able to modulate that bacteria and basically kick out those bad bacteria with specific antiseptics, antibiotics like everything. So we do a lot of different things and then monitor them, we can. Then afterwards, we redo the microbiome test and see that we’ve actually kicked out that bacteria and the patient often actually not often always stabilises and their gum disease leaves and they, you know, it’s amazing. So that’s something that I it’s kind of my niche at the moment,

[00:19:25] Is that is it? Did it start with your interest in this start with you?

[00:19:30] Yeah. So and it started with so Arianna and I rewrote a paper on the link between oral hygiene and COVID 19 severity about like, I think a year and a half ago now. And it got me understanding more about the oral microbiome and kind of the invisible inside the mouth. And as you go through dental school, you’re taught a lot about how to treat Dental disease, but not necessarily how to diagnose or how to monitor treatments. And so I kind of think of the mouth now and the saliva as the like, as blood. So you go to your doctor and you get a blood test, why can’t you go to your dentist and get a saliva test and look at different inflammatory markers and bacteria and enzymes and etc.? And that’s where it all started for me, and I started working with the microbiome company straight after we published that paper and help them basically create a microbiome test, which I now use on my patients.

[00:20:26] Oh wow. So so let’s get let’s get into it. Then what? What can we what can you learn from someone’s saliva? I mean, OK, we understand there’s a link between, you know, gum disease and heart disease. There’s a link between gum disease and diabetes, right? But is there more than that? Is there a whole lot of other stuff that outside of the mouth that you can tell by testing some saliva?

[00:20:54] Yeah. So a lot of the kind of systemic like the chronic inflammatory diseases, so rheumatoid arthritis osteoarthritis. It’s those types of things, we’re seeing amazing results with our patient, so I’ve been working a lot with a couple of functional doctors near my practise and they refer their patients who they’re treating for rheumatoid arthritis, and these patients are, you know, drugged up on steroids. They can hardly walk. The disease can be very debilitating and often because it’s to do with inflammation, with collagen degradation, which is very similar to gum disease in the mouth. These patients with rheumatoid arthritis often also have gum disease, and it’s not their number one priority as unfortunately, most people, their oral hygiene is not the first thing they think of when they have other ailments. And so these patients were being referred to me, and these doctors are just like, Oh, can you just stabilise the gum disease and just make sure everything’s OK? And so we started to do that again, modulating their microbiome, checking their inflammatory markers. And what we were finding was that their rheumatoid arthritis was improving when their gum disease had been settled and there was a direct correlation between the two of them. So there’s a lot more systemic diseases where we can see that there’s a huge connexion with the mouth. I mean, Alzheimer’s is the kind of the hottest one at the moment. There’s a lot of the gastro kind of diseases, Crohn’s, all sorts of colitis, even deficiencies. So there’s so many. And I think that because of COVID and the fact that people are more understanding of their systemic health and they want to be the best kind of person they can be in as healthy as possible. It’s a great time for dentists to also show patients that there’s a strong connexion with oral health.

[00:22:41] But so, so is this field of research out there, and you’re part of it now or are you saying, you know, has anyone else said this? I mean, is it anecdotal what you’re saying or is there more more to it than that?

[00:22:56] I know there’s a lot of the there’s a lot of research which has already come out about it. I think the problem is is that dentists don’t often actually they’re not going to do anything different on their day to day like treatments for patients. So yes, we can say there’s a strong connexion with rheumatoid arthritis, but the dentist isn’t going to necessarily change their treatment plan because of that. So another problem is that I have been I mean, it’s something that I’m very passionate about. So I’ve been speaking to a lot of, you know, board of directors for these massive companies, and I’m showing them all of the the data. And this isn’t my anecdotal data. This is, you know, actual systemic, systematic reviews and our cities and everything. And I’m showing them all of these results. And a lot of these dentists are kind of like, well, the way that we’re doing things works now. So why do we need to change it? And there’s no. A lot of people are quite resistant to the change, and they need a lot of evidence before they can kind of believe it and trust it.

[00:23:54] Yeah. You’ll look you’ll find that in general, we’re trained to be sceptical. Yeah. And a lot of, let’s face it, rubbish has been marketed at us. I mean, you know, mean, you know, and also every other week, there’s a there’s a new thing that’s going to speed up orthodontics is, yeah, there’s a new bracket that’s, you know, less less friction and. And so what happened? The problem with that is that we’ve been lied to so many times our in our careers that if a breakthrough comes along, it’s much harder for that breakthrough to breakthrough. Yeah, because so many people are sceptical about it. I went through a phase of thinking, you know, maybe we can do a period product, and then I spoke to a bunch of periodontist. I just thought, no way. Because as a as a business proposition, change in the mind of periodontist is that night. Same thing with orthodontics. I sat with some orthodontist. None of them could agree with each other on anything. Yeah. And you know, we were looking at something, but it it’s very interesting. I mean, to where you can take this from the from the research perspective, you can. Are you going to bring out a product or what’s going to happen? It sounds so interesting. There should be something.

[00:25:12] There’s a few things in the pipeline. Why did you come

[00:25:14] To me with this?

[00:25:19] There’s a few I I have a lot of ideas and a few of them are kind of developing the diagnostic side of dentistry, digitalising the diagnostics as well, making what we do quantitative as opposed to qualitative. So for example, at the moment when we’re diagnosing gum disease, we’re sitting there and poking someone’s gum and seeing if it bleeds like that is our diagnosis of inflammation. And that, to me, is just nuts. Like, you know, you don’t go to a doctor and they tap on your knee and they’re like, Oh yeah, looks a bit off like they do something about it. So that’s one side that I’m working with a couple of companies at the moment, and I’m kind of advising them or I’m on their scientific advisory board, helping them develop kind of diagnostic tools to help dentists. And the idea is that if you can diagnose Dental disease better, you’ll have better communication with doctors. You’ll be able to speak to them better and say, Hey, this patient I just saw has very high levels of inflammatory markers and they have no gum disease. It may be indicative of another chronic inflammatory disease, or they have really high levels of this bacteria, and this is a bacteria which is usually found in the gut. So maybe this patient has dysbiosis. So that’s where it’s going at the moment. And then also just at the moment, I work on a lot of referrals, so most of my patients are referred by functional doctors and medicks who want to have a different type of dentist to who sees oral health is a much bigger picture.

[00:26:47] My advice to you is to get go back to Barts and get one of the big guns there and get him to front your thing a little bit, because I’ve seen I’ve seen many times great sort of innovations go nowhere because because of the wrong sort of access. But look, it sounds like you’re making waves. So really, considering it’s so new to you, it’s like since go we go, Yeah,

[00:27:15] Yeah, yeah, it’s been about

[00:27:16] A year. It’s amazing how much progress you’ve made. I mean, are you spending loads of time on this? Is it every day and every weekend?

[00:27:24] I may have a cheeky obsession with bacteria now I do a lot on. Yeah, it is. That’s why I had to take a day off of clinical work to focus more on the research side and to kind of help with these with developing some of these diagnostic tools with these companies.

[00:27:42] I mean, tell me about your story in orthodontics. You know, OK, you always wanted to be an orthodontist. Where did you train finally for your specialising?

[00:27:50] So I did the backpacks and then the pedes, and then I worked as a general dentist for a while, which really reinforced my desire to be an orthodontist because unlike Victoria, I hated general dentistry. And so it was a little bit of a drama getting into orthodontics. And it turns out that I got in, but they had ranked everybody that year incorrectly, and so they didn’t realise that I’d got it gotten in for that year. And then to try and rectify the problem, they told me that I would have a space for the year after it was just a huge drama. So essentially, when I did start orthodontics, I didn’t have a choice with where it was that I was going to end up. They were just going to give me whatever. And so I never had the opportunity to rank any of the positions, and I didn’t even know where the positions were. Having said that, I think I probably got the best position I could have ever asked for, which was at Kings for academic only. And then my clinical outposts were at Addenbrooke’s in Cambridge and Luton and Dunstable hospitals. And the reason why this particular post, it comes about once every three years, you are the only one in that post. So from a social perspective, it’s pretty isolating and it’s a ridiculous commute because every other day you’re in Cambridge or Luton or London Bridge.

[00:29:20] So from that respect, it was really difficult. But I had five six consultants looking after me and only me and I had such an intimate training. I had all the patients that I wanted. I had. I didn’t need to compete with other registrars for patients, which was the case in a lot of the teaching hospitals. So I found it extremely valuable, and each consultant who helped with my training was so vastly different from each other that I got an amazing, amazing experience. So I’m so glad that it worked out this way and that I didn’t get in the year I was meant to get in. And after the three years, so part of the three years I had to do my my dissertation for the Masters, and I did it on the impact of social media on facial and smile confidence. And it was a randomised controlled trial that we did using Instagram, and I was pretty blown away by the results, by how unhappy social media makes people about their teeth and about their smiles. And it’s kind of something that we all would guess. But we finally put figures to it, and part of the questionnaire in the study was whether or not you’ve had orthodontics and whether that affects the impact the social media has on your self-confidence.

[00:30:47] And it we found out that it doesn’t make a difference, which is a little bit disheartening for orthodontists, but I guess it shows this sort of detrimental power of social media and that got me so interested in the impact of social media on dentistry as a whole. And so I’ve done a couple of studies ever since Victoria and I have also done some studies together using Instagram using we did one on Tinder also just to evaluate the different types of effects that social media can have on teeth or vice versa teeth have on social media. So one of the Instagram studies that Victoria and I did together was to see if you’re smiling with a large Duchenne smile. So showing all your teeth, a genuine smile, whether that has an impact on social media engagement and followers. And we found that if you’re smiling a really big, broad smile, you will get less engagement really on your social media, which was kind of disheartening because we want to promote people smiling people who do smile. Really large smiles are scientifically proven to have better. You know, initial

[00:32:09] Interactions, right,

[00:32:10] But our social interactions matter dating.

[00:32:13] I don’t know. But not on social media, you’re saying.

[00:32:16] No. And I think part of that, which we discussed in the study, part of that is to do with trends. We find that things are trendy or not trendy on social media. And I think right now it’s just not fashionable to be smiling. You just it’s more fashionable to be a bit

[00:32:33] Serious, but also I think countries have as a have an impact on that too. And what like, for example, in Sweden, it’s not cool to smile as much in America, like they smile a lot more in their photographs. That also has an impact, I’m sure.

[00:32:48] No, you’re right. I went to Russia for for work once, and one of my friends had been there a lot. He sees that they don’t just smile. If you said they they they say, if you’re smiling without something funny going on, you’re a fool or something, you know? Yeah. And then and then interestingly, we had a Russian manufacturer of toothpaste manufacturer was trying to sell his stuff around Europe in the UK, and the two reps from from Russia were over smiling when there was. It was a ridiculous amount of smiling going on from them, and it’s like, obviously someone had told them, You’ve got to smile a lot when you’re in the UK, but you’re right. I mean, all the sort of cultural issues are there, aren’t they? What kind of orthodontist are you? Like traditional or do you do more of the, you know, clear aligners, or do you do it all or do you do mingle?

[00:33:41] I split my time between NHS and private, and that changes a lot. How I am as an orthodontist with the NHS. It’s your standard metal train track braces. So I do a lot of that and I really enjoy just the standard bread and butter orthodontics. I think it’s highly effective, highly predictable and it’s nice to work with. I do in the private sector, a lot of ceramic and a lot of liners, the lingual. I find

[00:34:11] It breaks your back right,

[00:34:13] Breaks your back. Yes, I find it’s a difficult sell. If I’m honest with you for me and I probably don’t sell it that well because I don’t do enough of it. So I’m not, you know, trying to sell it. But when I provide a patient with all of the options, I have never had anyone say lingual sounds good to me. They’ll either go for the ceramic or they’ll either go for Invisalign. So I don’t tend to do much lingual. I have a huge interest in many screws or Tad’s. I love them and I really want to incorporate more of that in my clinical work.

[00:34:49] That’s little implants that go in the bone. Yes. Extra anchorage. Yes.

[00:34:55] Ok. Yeah. And so when I was doing my orthodontic training, there was a prise with the British orthodontic society. It was a research fellowship. And I mean, this is the power of social media. I feel like we sound like we’re obsessed with social media. I applied for it and wanted to study the impact of social media on patient acceptance of treatment with Tad’s. And I randomly deemed a bunch of international orthodontists so too in Brazil, one in Taiwan, one in Japan and one in the U.S. And I was like, whoever answers me first will be the person that I do the study with, and I’ll put that with my application for the the research grant. And it was a guy called Daniel Figure Figaro in Belo Horizonte. And Brazil, who responded to me first and his Instagram is orthodontic world, and he’s hugely popular because of his use of tats. And so I won the fellowship, went to Brazil, did a mini school course, went to the Brazilian orthodontic conference, and then he and I did the study together to see sort of a cross cultural divide on how patients use social media to check their clinicians to get their information on treatment options and to make their decisions on treatments. And again, I thought this was even more profound than the findings I found in my my master’s research.

[00:36:29] It was 76 percent of patients want to see their clinicians work on social media, which is huge. And seventy six percent of patients get their treatment information on social media. So people in Brazil, there are slightly different rules in Brazil about how you can advertise yourself as a clinician. Then there are here. They are not allowed to advertise themselves as clinicians. They can’t pour before and after clinical photographs for the purpose of attracting patients. They can put it up for the purpose of teaching fellow clinicians. So it’s slightly different in that regard, but they use social media very, very, very well to put out good quality information so that patients understand their treatment options and understand their own treatment plan a lot better, therefore reinforcing a little bit of that trust in their clinician, the trust in their own treatment. And it ends up with providing better treatment outcomes for those patients, and I think it’s something that we in the UK are not that great with. We’re slowly getting there. There are a lot more clinicians, particularly in general dentistry, who are using social media to put out good quality information to teach fellow clinicians and to teach patients. And I think that’s so important.

[00:37:54] Yeah, I mean, we’re naturally educators, aren’t we as Dental? Yes, we’re much more naturally in an education sort of role than in a sales role. And you know, I talk about this all the time with whitening, you know, your average. Did you work today? Victoria, did you work as a dentist today? No, no. Your average dentist in a day? I don’t know. I don’t know about you guys, but I was a dentist. I used to talk to at least half my patients about dental brushing, right? I wasn’t. I wasn’t doing that. To sell into Dental brushes was I. I didn’t care about the. Sales, but I was busy doing it, I to talk to lots and lots of patients about it. You know, somehow we’re good at it. You know, it’s our role, isn’t it? One of our major roles is education and now in the social media age, it’s just another tool to educate. Right? But the funny thing about social media, I find, is, you know, I’m not very good at it, at all myself. I could see you guys are pretty good at it, but I know how important it is. I understand how important it is. So I’ve got a team of people who do ours. You know, when we have our courses and we have a section in the marketing section of the course and the guy, we’ve got different people do it. But generally people are very savvy on Instagram and all that. They say who in the room has has a social media account for dentistry, generally less than a third of the room does. And so, you know, we’re slow as dentists, we are slow to catch on to these things. By the time everyone has an Instagram account, TikTok will be the place to be. And it’s just the way it ain’t. So all right. They’d tell me this. I wanted to go back something. The sad thing, Arianne, what does it mean to me as a patient? If you’re using that, does it mean you’re more accurate quicker? What does it mean?

[00:39:47] It can mean quicker treatment times. It can mean we can make some progress with certain with certain movements without needing to put the full brace on. So, for example, if I want to disinfect a canine, I can start disinfecting it with just the tide and not have the fixed braces on, and that’ll drastically reduce the time in fixed races, for example.

[00:40:16] So literally, there’s there’s an implant stuck to the next to the canine and an elastic tuck from that to the canine and no brace.

[00:40:23] Yeah. Oh wow. Because that’s your Anchorage point. Whereas normally when we disinfect a canine, our anchorage is derived from the rest of the teeth bound together by a fixed brace. But until you get to a point where you can bind the rest of the teeth in a fixed phrase with a rigid arch wire, you’re already quite a few months into treatment

[00:40:45] And you go straight through the gum, which you raise a flap. How does it work?

[00:40:49] You can. Yeah, you can go straight through the goggles. Sometimes you might do a punch. If you’re if you’re putting a tad in the pilot, you might do like a punch incision just to if the pilot is really thick.

[00:41:00] So I want to get to this question, which is sort of this is the darker part of the conversation. What’s been what was your darkest day in dentistry? Let’s start with you, Victoria.

[00:41:18] I’m going to go dark and deep. I go to GDC complaint three months into qualifying in my year, and that was probably the darkest day of dentistry I’ve ever had.

[00:41:31] Was it about what was it about?

[00:41:33] It was.

[00:41:34] I hadn’t actually treated or touched the patient. She’d come in for a check-up. Obviously, this was fully NHS practise. The patient hadn’t come in like 10 years, and she needed a ton of fillings, root canals. She needed a few teeth taken out cetera. So I was telling her all about her treatment plan. She was like, Oh, why? Why are my teeth like this? Why do I need so much treatment? I was like, Well, you haven’t come in 10 years, but also I can see that you brush your teeth, but you’re missing certain areas, you know, trying to be nice about it. And then she was like, Why can’t I have all my fillings white? And obviously I wasn’t able to, and I said, You know, clinically, you don’t have the indications for it. I thought it went, OK. She then started shouting at me and saying that I didn’t know what I was talking about and that I was just a small young girl. Long story short, a couple of weeks later, I get GDC complaint saying that I was being racist, sexist, treating her differently based on her religion as well, and her the fact that she was wearing a hijab. So it was pretty big. I mean, I literally I’m talking like, I’m not like three months into my vti. And it was it was a horrific time. I hope no one ever has to go through that to the point where I nearly left and I was very close to leaving.

[00:42:54] And yeah, that that was that. I mean, obviously, it’s all been settled. It came out that she was actually doing the same thing with a lot of her other health care professionals and just basically suing them all on these grounds of racism and sexism. And it’s taught me a lot, and it’s definitely made me a very different type of dentist. But it’s also made me very sensitive and passionate about GDC complaints and the fact that I think that there’s this real taboo around it. And people think that if you have a GDC complain, it means that you’re a bad dentist or you, you must have done something wrong. And it took me quite a long time to realise that actually, I think that we should be taught differently at Dental School. It’s not how to avoid a GDC complaint, but more how to kind of how to deal with it. Because these days, I think that most dentists will have at least one GDC complaint and the fact that it’s become such a scary thing and and dentists are scared of telling their colleagues because they think that they’re going to be judged differently. I’d probably say this is the first time I’ve ever said it out loud, like on a podcast or anything like that that I had a GDC complaint. But there we go. Here’s the darkened and dirty.

[00:44:09] But what did you learn? I mean, what would you have done differently? Because it sounds like she was, you know, she was an outlier.

[00:44:17] Honestly, I don’t think I would have changed anything in terms of the way that I had treated her in terms of the check-up I diagnosed correctly. Maybe the way I’d said things was incorrect. I think that I’ve also over the past few years, I screened patients differently and I can kind of gauge what type of patient they are. And some patients, unfortunately, they come in wanting a professional opinion, but they don’t want to hear the professional opinion. And I used to be very like, Oh, I’m going to have to. I have to teach you all, and I still want to. But there’s different ways of doing it, and that’s something that I learnt. And I think three months in Fresh New Dentist, I thought that I was going to change the world and I was going to, you know, filling by filling. I was going to do something. And I think it’s it’s slow and you need to treat patients differently, engage them very differently.

[00:45:06] And you know what I mean, I’d expect with also you’ve got the mum who thinks you didn’t do the didn’t make the kid beautiful or something like that must happen all the time.

[00:45:21] Actually, you know, so I see an acupuncturist and he said something really funny because I’m only two years qualified as an orthodontist. And he said about how long does an orthodontic treatment last or take? And I was like, Oh, it can vary one to three years. He’s like, OK, so you won’t actually know if you’re any good at your job for quite a few years.

[00:45:45] I was like,

[00:45:45] Thanks for that. I didn’t think of it that way. But yeah, you just have to be right. So I I’ve actually bonded a lot of patients. I haven’t reached that stage in an orthodontists career where things start coming out the woodwork, which I think happens to. A lot of orthodontists, so they’re like 10 years bonded and they come out and they’re like, why did this tooth move, which is such a common complaint in orthodontics? So like, I’m not there yet. I think while Victoria was telling her story, I was trying to think of the darkest moment, and I don’t think I can pinpoint like just one. I’m just there was so many dark moments in dentistry. I tried to think twice. I felt I was like, definitely verbally, but also physically threatened by a patient’s parent. Once, when I was working as a general dentist because I was doing a root canal on a young kid. And it was one of those situations, you know, the kids really young. You could have thought about taking the tooth out and incorporating it into an orthodontic treatment plan, but then you’re going to try and be a hero and do a root canal and a crown to to avoid that. So I was doing that. And then the kid, like, stuck his tongue and I cut it with my fast handpiece when I was doing the Crown Prep. It wasn’t that bad, but there was some blood, and the mom literally tries to corner me in the room and is shouting at me and is threatening that she will personally see to it that I never work as a dentist again.

[00:47:21] And when you’re in Veatch, I mean, that’s scary at any point in one’s career. But when you’re in VTi, you’re just, you’re like, That’s it. My working life is over. And similar thing happened with a patient’s dad. When I was in my second year of orthodontic training, I was running an hour and a half late and I managed to see this kid finally during my lunch break, and the dad just got really angry. I think he was really fed up from waiting, which I understand it’s it’s never pleasant, especially to wait that long. And so he also tried to corner me, and then my consultant heard him shouting at me from his office and comes running through. And it was this weird situation because then it was my consultant, this patient’s dad, you know, standing up to each other. It was really scary to watch, but it’s one of those like autho, not orthodontics. Dentistry, I think, can put you in some really, really challenging positions and sometimes some dangerous positions because you see so many people and in so many different circumstances from so many different backgrounds. And it’s it’s a difficult, difficult industry to to navigate. But at the end of the day, we still love it despite all of this.

[00:48:37] Yeah. Well, I’ve had the the privilege of stopping dentistry and then and then going back to it. I stopped for five full years when we started enlightened and then I went back to. And when you’ve done that, you sort of get a different outlook on what it is that dentistry is, you know, and I don’t know. When I went back, I realised all the good things about it. All right. We see we meet a lot of people. Yeah, like you said that as almost like a negative because you’re right, though, you know, once you meet enough people, you’ll come across a few nutters or a few of you, few difficult people. But that that social side of it and I know, I know you don’t sort of skip into work thinking, I’m going to meet a bunch of people today, but you should. Yeah, because most, most jobs, you don’t meet a lot of people. Yeah. And then from the financial side, it’s pretty easy to make money in the industry. Let’s face it. Yeah, of course you’re going to break your back and all that and you’ve got these issues that we discussed. But but when I say easy, you don’t you don’t have to do tax right, you could keep it very simple. Yeah, it’s possible to keep it simple and earn and earn your crust, you know? And so I don’t know. It’s one of those things that it’s very fashionable to say you want to leave. And on the other hand, there’s plenty of people who love it, and it’s clear with you do. You definitely both really passionate about your work, right?

[00:50:13] Yeah. In my second year, it was around March and I cut my finger really badly with some gloss and it was my index finger and I had to get it glued and fur. I lost the sensation in my finger and I wasn’t able to bend my finger for four months or something. And at the time, because with orthodontics, you’ve got wire bending. I had my wire bending exam, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t practise for it. So then it was an automatic fail. And then because I’d lost the sensation it was affecting, I was trying to tie modules with my finger sticking up and it was it was impossible and I was. That was a dark period for me because. Has a genuinely trying to do orthodontics with this finger. I really struggled and I was like, I won’t be able to do a career in orthodontics with a finger like this. And I spoke to all of these surgeons and doctors who said, you may not get the sensation back in your finger. And I was so upset and I was in hysterical tears. And one of the other registrars at Kings saw me crying one day in the bathroom and she was like, Why are you crying? If you can’t work clinically as an orthodontist, you can always treatment plan and diagnose and then maybe work with orthodontic therapists. And I was like, That doesn’t help me. I enjoy doing clinical orthodontics, and I really want to do it for the rest of my life. So luckily, I got the sensation of my finger and I’m able to bend it now.

[00:51:51] You know, that thing about all the therapies is beautiful, though. My son’s going through orthodontics right now, and he doesn’t see the orthodontist much because he’s a little bit. But considering we’re right at the top end in Harley Street and all of that, well, much at all, man. Not much at all. The therapist?

[00:52:11] Yeah, I don’t use them. Yeah, actually.

[00:52:14] No, not yet. Victoria, what were you going to say?

[00:52:18] Well, I was saying that we, you know, even though we’ve gone through, I mean, for me, that GDC complaint, I mean, it came with quite a lot of depression afterwards, like I wasn’t in a good place. But even so, I still continued working. And I’m grateful and I’m really happy that I did because I actually really enjoy my job. And like you were saying about meeting people. Covid made me really realise that like our jobs are very special because I was seeing all my friends and they’re working from home and they’re sitting on their laptops. And just like just doing nothing, I mean, they’re working, but like they’re just not leaving their beds all day. And I was, you know, walking to work every day, and then I was like meeting, you know, 15 new people and making new friends and I’ll come home. And I had something interesting to say. And you know, you meet some crazy people, but also you meet some. I’ve actually made friends with a lot of my patients, and also one of the beauties of social media is that you can actually continue to to speak to them. You know, it becomes a friendship. And I really enjoy that and I’ve made friends with the most ridiculous people that I would have never met in a normal environment. And now I get to speak to them and learn new things. And I think that’s really, really special. And you don’t get that with many other professions.

[00:53:33] Yeah, I mean, both of you guys look at 38 definition and you meet a bunch of interesting people that like Gaynor’s practise.

[00:53:42] Yeah, yeah, we meet. We meet some fun people, some very interesting ones. And it’s nice. I mean, so I work in two practises and the other one is it’s an art gallery meets a Dental practise. So we we meet. I treat a very different bunch of people who are a bit younger, a bit more. We see a lot of like models and actors and creative DJs and those types of things. It’s actually amazing. I have the week I get to pretend I’m cool and the other half the week I get to, you know, it’s nice.

[00:54:13] Where is that gallery one in London?

[00:54:15] Where is it? It’s in St James’s Park.

[00:54:18] Oh, nice place. Yeah, I think to see that, I’ve heard a lot about it, I have to go there one day and actually see it. I’ll come and I’ll come and have lunch or something.

[00:54:27] Yeah, come round. Yeah, it’s an

[00:54:28] Amazing kind of art, is it? Yeah, they have so much Dental memorabilia.

[00:54:34] Yeah, yeah. I think we have the most Dental memorabilia in the world or something like the oldest Victorian like Dental. I know forceps or something.

[00:54:43] Who’s the principal

[00:54:44] There? His name is Jerome Siba. He’s a he French dentist.

[00:54:49] Amazing. Yeah. So listen, we talked about dark days. Yeah, I want to talk about regrets. What’s what’s your biggest regret in dentistry?

[00:55:01] Oh, it’s a really tricky question. Do you remember The Queen’s Gambit when it came out and she sits there lying in bed and she looks in the ceiling and she sees the chessboard? And yeah, I feel like I do that all the time with orthodontics, and I’ll lie there in bed feeling like if I put in the last americ chain over here, it’ll drag the canine out this way and then the anchorage, blah blah blah. And I, it sounds ridiculous, but I feel that. And then some so often some of my regrets are like, Oh, I should have put on a No. One, six nine and I don’t know, one four. And I tie in that case. She’s a real

[00:55:38] Party to be around sometimes.

[00:55:43] And so I get that a lot. But in terms of like a big regret, I’m just trying to think. In terms of my career pathway, I

[00:55:53] It’s kind of it’s kind of what would you have done differently if you could like, if you could rewind? What have you done differently?

[00:56:00] I’m not sure I would have. Oh, OK. No, I do. Ok, so when I didn’t get into orthodontics that first year that I applied and then it turns out that they were wrong about not getting me in. So that year I worked as a general dentist and I worked in three practises at separate times. So I did a stint in one and then a stint in another because I was so unhappy at all of them. And part of the reason with that was because it was my first time really working as a general dentist. And you don’t value yourself that much as a clinician when you’re starting out and when somebody offers you a job. Or at least this was the case for me. When somebody offered me a job, I thought, amazing. They offered me a job. I have to take it. And so I was not discerning about the job offers that I was receiving at that time. So that was my biggest regret was, I think, undervaluing myself as a clinician. I’m not saying I was an amazing general dentist or anything, but to find a job that worked for me with a team that I would enjoy working with in an area that I wanted to go to. I just thought I got a job. I got to take it.

[00:57:13] Yeah, I see it quite a lot. A lot of people ask me for advice. Younger dentists ask me for advice. And I hear people say stuff like, I’m I’m 10 years out of dental school and I’m not sure if I’m ready for private yet. And I’ve been by, so I did vote and said, I want to go private. That was that was just, you know, I didn’t even think about, am I ready for it or aren’t you ready for it? I was a bit the other way around. I was I don’t know that I could manage the NHS. And isn’t that what you’re saying about? You could call it valuing yourself or whatever. But those decisions that you make that you have to sometimes sit with people who say, you know, you can do private land. There’s no there’s nothing. There’s not a magic to it. The main magic to it is empathy or, yeah, not hurting people or whatever. So what would you say? What would you say, Ariane as an orthodontist? One of the main skills outside of those patient management skills, like you sounds like you are looking at things in a sort of a 3D way, whereas I wouldn’t I kind of see teeth. And so, you know, a lot of general dentists are taking on Dental taking on orthodontics. Tell us, tell me a couple of things that you know, they’re not they’re not aware of or they they should be aware of or mistakes that you see people do.

[00:58:38] I think one of the most important things about sort of dealing with orthodontics as an orthodontist or as a general dentist is being very creative. That’s what I love about orthodontics is that you can be so creative when you come across a problem. There are so many different solutions for that problem, so you have to keep a very open mind. There are so many materials that you can use, so many different appliances that you can use, you can mix and match. I mix and match so much. And since qualifying as an orthodontist, I do it so much more. And you know, you might put a segmental fixed race in one half and then something else in the other half. You’ll use different appliances over different courses, different parts of that same treatment and things like that. And that’s what I find some people lack, especially people who don’t have that much experience. And for example, with Invisalign, I heard that there are a lot of people who get a clean check and they think, OK, clinic told me to do this. So I need to do this and I need to accept it. And that’s problematic, because why are why is the eye better than you? It’s not. You need to challenge and question the treatment plan that’s suggested to you and think about the other options. There are so many other options outside of that. So it’s that creativity and keeping an open mind that there’s always something out there and it might be something that you don’t offer. You’re not good at. There’s plenty of that. I, as an orthodontist, refer to other orthodontists all the time because I think, no, actually you need to see this guy because he’s better at that.

[01:00:19] What about what about those of the composite bonding piece at the end of Ortho? Do you take that on yourself or do you pass that on or

[01:00:26] I don’t do it. I will pass it on. Victoria sometimes does it or a patient who has their own general dentist, they’ll do it. And this is kind of an issue, actually, because especially if patients are seeing before and afters on Instagram, and then you see this beautiful case with alignment, bleaching and composite right done, say, by a general dentist, and the finish looks stunning. My finish won’t look as good because I’m not doing the composite and the bleaching afterwards, so I’ll finish to a beautiful orthodontic result, maybe. But the shape of the teeth and the colour of the teeth isn’t that great. And that’s something that I think is a slight issue in terms of patients because they’ll be like, Oh, like that, other dentist is so much better. But actually, no, we’re both good. They’ve just done a little bit more at the end of it.

[01:01:18] But I mean, in your training that the idea of aligning each born, you know, was that was that discussed at all or never? Because in many ways you could get the gingival part right as the orthodontist and leave the incisal to the restorative guy, you know?

[01:01:35] Yeah, which which we do. So we did train a lot with working with restorative colleagues. When I was at Addenbrooke’s, we had an amazing restorative consultant who did that stuff, particularly for hypochondria patients. So that is part of the training and it is very valuable. But when you’re working, say you’re working at an NHS orthodontic clinic, you have so many referring general dentists. And I don’t know some of them that well, and I don’t know whether they’re happy doing the composite.

[01:02:08] I guess I guess I’m talking about more adults also, aren’t you? Because, you know, by the time able to just relax. But but by the time you’ve worn these teeth down, you’re an adult like most kids haven’t yet worn them down. So that might be why you’re not coming across it as much in kids. But but how much of your work is? How much is that? So it’s all your NHS kids and all your private adults, it kind of bands

[01:02:32] Up all my NHS kids, then my private is probably. Forty per forty to thirty five percent kids. Oh, really? And the rest adults, yeah.

[01:02:44] And a kid’s asking for Invisalign now.

[01:02:46] Yes, surprisingly because I think for a kid, it’s it’s OK to have braces. Everybody has braces, but I’m getting so many more saying, no, it has to be ceramic or no, it has to be Invisalign.

[01:02:59] And it has Invisalign improved, in your opinion, to the point, I remember 10 years ago when I was doing Invisalign, every orthodontist would say it’s not as good. You can’t move the teeth in the direction you want to, whereas now I’ve come across a couple of orthodontist who only use Invisalign. So was it improved, is it is it?

[01:03:22] I definitely think it’s improved, I think it is excellent and the eye is very strong and it’ll only get stronger. Those treatment plans in the clinics that are coming through will only get better the more and more we use it. But I don’t think it’ll replace fixed appliances. There are certain situations where you have to have the fixed appliances. I just I can’t see a situation where an airliner can do as good a job as a fixed appliance in certain clinical cases in the majority of cases. Yeah, I think it’s a viable alternative option. But if you’re disinfecting a canine, I should think it would be so difficult for you to do with an airliner. It’s not impossible, but you’ll just be wearing Invisalign the whole time. I just finished my Invisalign done by Victoria. Victoria’s just started her Invisalign that I’ve put for her. And now that we’re seeing it as a patient,

[01:04:16] It’s a tough dream that,

[01:04:17] Yeah, yeah, the compliance is so difficult and we finally understand it from a personal perspective. Victoria was making fun of me being like, You’re the worst patient ever, you’re not compliant. And I was like, No, I’m every patient. I’m just being honest with you about it.

[01:04:32] Yeah, it’s a tough, tough, tough treatment. But you know, we were talking about we talk to our dentists about whitening after Invisalign. And, you know, a lot of people sell this sort of free whitening within this A-line thing. And obviously in life, it’s never going to be free. And so the time to have that conversations at the end of it, Invisalign online, not the beginning, because at the end, they’ve just been through the hassle that is Invisalign. And once you’ve been through that hassle, sure, you’ll finish it off properly. But at the beginning, you know you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into, right? Yeah. Victoria, what’s your what’s your dream come true with regards to the whole microbiome stuff? I mean, if I was a Russian billionaire and I was like willing to fund you to the hilt, what would you say? What would you say would happen? Go hit me

[01:05:25] For everyone to have symbiosis and everyone’s bacteria to all be balanced and equal?

[01:05:33] Well, obese. Yeah, exactly.

[01:05:36] I want world bacterial peace. That would be the dream. I mean, real talk, I would say from a dentist perspective for more dentists to understand the oral microbiome. I mean, when I was at university, I we had maybe like, you know, a few lectures on the microbiome and I just memorised some bacteria and then I just spat it out on my exam. And that was the end. And I never thought I was going to have to know about this bacteria ever again. So the dream would be for dentists to actually like, appreciate, understand what the microbiome is, what bacteria is, how important saliva is, and then to use it to their advantage by checking the saliva for certain things and trying to modulate the microbiome. And then from my side, it would be to hopefully create like a protocol. So I am thinking of maybe teaching other dentists about the microbiome more and how to modulate it. There needs to be a lot more research that goes behind it first, but it’s it’s in the in the working at the moment.

[01:06:37] It’s a fascinating subject. I’m sure people will want to learn about it. Yeah, the thing that seems to drive these things is a kind of a use case, a sort of a how am I going to make money out of this kind?

[01:06:49] Well, that’s the problem. I had a discussion with someone actually recently who not a very nice person, actually, but they I was talking, he was a dentist and we were talking about what we like to do, and he was just like to slap on veneers. And, you know, like, that’s my my thing, and I’m making loads of money at the moment. What do you like to do? I was like, Oh, I like to modulate microbiomes. And he was like, Where’s the money at that? And that is a problem. I mean, it is expensive for me in the sense that we have to do microbiome testing and we have to do this.

[01:07:25] Definitely money there is, but it’s there’s no doubt about

[01:07:29] That we need to work on. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s never going to be the same as doing a smile makeover. And that’s the problem and also with the microbiome because it’s non shedding and because it’s essentially quite stagnant. Once you get the bad bacteria out, that patient could be actually good for the rest of their lives. They might just need some modulating treatment for like six months and then they’re good. So it’s it’s great for patients, though, so the

[01:07:52] Dental model needs to change a little bit. But you know why? Why do we only get paid when we cut? Yeah, it’s it’s it’s one of the things I guess, you know, in shorts and then bland capitation was trying to look at that. But you know, I see that if every dentist in every exam did a microbiome test. Yeah, it’s a gigantic market, right? It’s much more of a market than than.

[01:08:18] Hear cases and they’re loyal, the patients who see me at the moment, who I’ve been working on their microbiomes and getting them back to a place of health are the most loyal patients I’ve ever seen.

[01:08:31] I think you’ve got to stick at it because the gut microbiome is so, so, so fashionable. Yeah, yeah. Everyone’s talking like it’s become a thing everyone’s interested in. Yeah. And at the end of day, this is just this is the beginning of the gut, right? Exactly. That’s the way it used to be. Yeah. Guys, it’s been a pleasure having you. We normally end with this sort of end of life type of questions, how know legacy type of questions? Let’s listen. Let’s go there. Let’s go there. You’re on your deathbed. Great. You’ve got your nearest and dearest around you. What a three pieces of advice you would give them.

[01:09:13] Arianna, you can go first.

[01:09:15] Oh, dear. Ok, three pieces of advice, I’ve never thought about this. Don’t worry too much. And Max Fox taught me that. Stay humble. And smile,

[01:09:35] Enjoy, enjoy, right? Yeah, I. Go ahead to.

[01:09:41] I’m. Can I give you my mantra, like how I, how I live my life, if that makes sense? It’s not like three things. So when I was younger, I had this idea that our life is only truly happy when we it’s called the four corners of Life. So you’ve got friendship on one corner, family on the other corner, and then you’ve got your academics when you’re a child and then that will transcend into work or business or whatever. And then relationships on the other side, which eventually might become your husband, wife, etc. And then the centre of it all is your health and in life. We always want all of those to be perfect and they never are. And what we all have to remember is that, for example, you’re really stressed out with your exams or you’ve you failed an exam and you’re really upset about it. You need to think back and be like, OK, well, fine. My academics aren’t doing so well right now, but I have a family I love. I have friends that are great and my health is good and to kind of always be grateful for the other things in your life. And whilst we’re always trying to achieve this perfect four corners or et cetera it, you need to also be happy with where you are at that moment in time.

[01:10:56] Did you come up with this yourself when you were a kid? Yeah, it was

[01:10:59] The little baby philosopher. I had this.

[01:11:01] She was very

[01:11:02] Wise. Yeah. It came off and then I used to draw a little square on my wrist when I was upset about like, if like, for example, I had a really big falling out with a friend or, you know, I was upset at someone or something like that. I would draw my little square on my wrist and before every exam as well, and it would remind me that my life is still good and there’s so much worse that could be happening right now that just be grateful for what you have.

[01:11:29] That’s lovely, man. The next question, the next question. People worry about, but don’t worry about it just to I don’t know why people worry about such an easy question. Just just say whatever comes in your head and it’s Victoria first, this time dinner party. Three three guests dead or alive. Is it going to be, oh, to say one? And then I will say the next one. Oh. This is a classic classic perfectionist types who can’t can’t say an answer, this is the perfect answer.

[01:12:03] Can I guess what a guitar is, Gus? Well, yeah, I think Victoria wants somebody from Russian politics to Putin. Yeah, probably Putin. I’m going to go back.

[01:12:16] I want Stalin.

[01:12:18] Stalin, OK.

[01:12:19] I want this weird fascination with Russian history and communism. When I was like 18 and I was obsessed, like, not in a weird way, but I just found the the head of Stalin and everything that he did just insane. So I would love to, you know, have a chat with him, understand what he did.

[01:12:37] I look, can we do that era, you know?

[01:12:41] Yeah, yeah.

[01:12:41] It’s just it’s just can I guess Victoria’s three and then you guessed mine. That’s interesting.

[01:12:45] That’s OK. Let’s do it.

[01:12:47] Ok, so Victoria wants Stalin. I think like a really big businessman. So like Gordon Selfridge or something, somebody like that could do that. And then the third one would be Henrietta Lacks.

[01:13:02] Oh, I would love Henrietta Lacks.

[01:13:04] Who’s that?

[01:13:05] That is so Henrietta Lacks, is she? Her cells were the first immortal cells to ever be found, and this was, I don’t remember the year, but they’re basically HeLa cells, and that was what penicillin was made on. And it was the she basically had cancer. They found some cells, which were just constantly keep on dividing and replicating, and they took them from her and they spread around the world. And now they’re used constantly. But at the time, because she was African-American, they didn’t treat her correctly and they just stole her cells and she died. And then, like, 50, 60 years later, her family realised that, like so much of modern day medicine, was created based on their mother’s cells. And it was this huge legal issue of like, do they have any rights to these cells and and do African-Americans have rights and medical rights? And yeah, so we’d love to meet Henrietta Lacks as well. But I don’t think Gordon Selfridge, I’m going to go for like a like Solomon, like I want to, you know, let’s make it. I want to have like a little bit of a party whilst we’re having dinner.

[01:14:14] And that’s a good guess. Go ahead, Ariane. What are we going to? Victoria’s going to get to give us some clues about Ariane?

[01:14:19] Oh, I’m going to be the worst of this. Ok, she’s going to want like an artist of some sort.

[01:14:25] What’s your favourite kind of author?

[01:14:27] Post-war, contemporary? I’m particularly figurative, so I’m going to answer. You’re right about the artist. So one of the artists that I would, the woman with the wax. Now, never mind. Yeah, yeah. No, I don’t want her, I would want Pietro Mazzoni, who is an Italian artist. He was part of the Italian movement called Arte Povera, where they couldn’t afford artistic materials, so they would make art based on what they could find. And so he made a lot of art with bread rolls and cotton wool and just really random things, and

[01:15:04] He became his art. Hmm. Yeah, it’s very interesting. It’s very interesting.

[01:15:10] It is. I mean, he he was famous in his lifetime, and as a famous artist, he thought, I’m an artist. I so whatever I touch and produce is art. So he started putting his thumbprint on eggs. And then he also filled a tin with his own excrement, sealed it and sold it for its weight in gold.

[01:15:31] Yeah, and I was looking at that right now. Yeah, it’s artist shit. Yeah. Is it was. It was very good. Yeah.

[01:15:42] And I love that. And it says somewhere that if you open the tin, it will no longer be worth its weight in gold. And so nobody dares open the tin.

[01:15:53] Ok. Piero Manzoni, who else?

[01:15:56] Who else would are good?

[01:16:00] So would you want a musician? Meet who a musician. You know, that means take it. No politician, no, I don’t think you’d want a politician. I don’t know. Give me a guess,

[01:16:14] And if you know yourself.

[01:16:16] Obviously, I don’t really know. I’m trying to think only bigger. Maybe Timothée Chalamet, who? Google, that Google him, the actor.

[01:16:27] He’s very good looking because he’s good looking.

[01:16:30] Yeah, basically

[01:16:33] Who I know, either someone from Schitt’s Creek or from Family Guy or from one of those TV shows that you love.

[01:16:44] You’re making me sound very superficial, I’m not I think it be, I’m making myself sound very superficial.

[01:16:50] I sound like a psychopath. I want Stalin and Solomon in the same room at the same time.

[01:16:54] I’m not any better than you. That’s one hell of a party you got. Yeah, go and hit us. It doesn’t, you know, it’s not about how you sound. It’s about who are the three people? Yeah.

[01:17:07] Oh. God, I can’t possibly think, Candy.

[01:17:17] I’m getting a lot of Gandhis, so, you know, I love candy.

[01:17:22] I feel like that’s like the PC. Yeah, exactly.

[01:17:24] Yeah, no. Like one of the guys at my dinner party, I don’t even know his name. Yeah, it’s the guy behind Red Bull. That guy. Why? Oh, I just love. I just love what he’s done. I just love war. I want to stick with that guy and say, Well, that

[01:17:40] Was that jeweller

[01:17:41] That you really like in.

[01:17:44] Nadine Goss. Yes. Her in there. Nadine Goss is one of my favourite jewellers.

[01:17:51] Okay, so you win the prise, but I didn’t know any of your three guests the first time that’s happened. We’ve only got to now. Yeah, because because Stalin and Solomon might do well, those three, I’ve just I’ve just learnt something.

[01:18:10] I feel like you don’t want to come to my my dinner party and you’re invited.

[01:18:17] Guys, it’s been a real pleasure to have you. And I know, I know in these things when there’s when there’s two people on, it sort of feels like we only just touch the surface. But with you two, you kind of know each other so well, it’s interesting you. Three questions for each other to connect with you guys. As I said, the Dental sisters and your papers and things. Where can people pick up your papers?

[01:18:42] It’s on orchid, right?

[01:18:43] Would you submit?

[01:18:45] Payman just sticking to its collar, yeah,

[01:18:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah, should be up there.

[01:18:51] Yeah, well, it’s been really lovely to have you guys. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this

[01:18:55] And thank you for helping us. This was really fun to see both.

[01:18:59] Thank you.

[01:19:00] Thank you. Bye. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

[01:19:14] Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] I’ve done the growth, the learning, the journey, the business, the practise set up, the private practise, female kids. I feel if you’ve heard of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I really feel that a point in my life where I think I’ve got enough, I’m really content financially and I want to kind of give back and

[00:00:21] Empower other people in whatever capacity I can.

[00:00:25] And when I was younger, money was important. And it’s a natural tendency to want to show that money off, be it by a car, whether

[00:00:32] It’s because you enjoy driving it or whether you want to show it or designer clothes or whatever,

[00:00:37] It might be adversely for me. Conversely, for me, it’s I’ve gone the opposite. I feel that I don’t really have a desire to kind of exhibit wealth.

[00:00:48] My needs have become a lot more modest.

[00:00:51] You know, I’m on a dieting programme where hardly anything now, so I can’t even spend it on fine food. So for me, the driver’s isn’t money in finances anymore, but more connecting with people, giving back teaching, empowering networking. And I really love people.

[00:01:17] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki,

[00:01:34] It gives me great pleasure to welcome Jenny to be able to do podcast. I’ve known Jenny for years. One of the original enlightened users when one from my era gin is more more from my era than the younger guests that we’ve had recently, Jenny, for me, is someone I keep seeing on the, you know, the post-grad circuit, someone who seems to have a sort of insatiable sort of desire to learn, and it’s really done really well with it. A veteran of general practise implant Ology Orthodontics, Facialist Ethics, Super successful practises. Lovely to have you on the show, Jenny.

[00:02:12] Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be speaking to you.

[00:02:15] So, Jenny, these things start normally with the back story. How do you grow up? Why did you become a dentist? Where, where? Where did you grow up? All of that?

[00:02:23] I grew up in York. I’ve lived in New York most of my life. An unusual place for an Asian, I guess, to grow up because there’s not many Asians in New York. It’s not very multicultural. My dad kind of landed in York as a restaurant back in the seventies. So yeah, I grew up in New York.

[00:02:43] Typical story. Immigrant parents.

[00:02:46] My parents were uneducated. They came here for the prospects of a better life. So in turn, I had a bit of an impoverished upbringing. My father was a bit of a failed businessman, actually. He never quite succeeded despite being wanting to be ambitious and be a successful businessman. Which left me seeing my mom having to work extremely hard to pick up the pieces around him. I recall my childhood being quite difficult because mom was always working subsequent to was always going bankrupt early and losing our home. And from a pride point of view, that was massive. My mom was about to feel and she started taking on a lot of jobs just to try and keep the mortgage payments going. As a child, what I realised is, you know, I’d come home from school at four o’clock secondary school. I was about to primary school. I was nine and I’d be left to look after younger siblings. There’s a big age gap between me and my younger siblings because I had a brother when I was five, he was two and a half and he got knocked down by a car hit and wanted to buy a house, actually. So it’s quite tragic. Subsequent to that, my other siblings are a big age gap, so I was often the one looking after the children.

[00:04:08] My mum would then go to work in countries Chocolate Factory, which is now known as Nestlé, and she worked from about four to half nine. I’d kind of gotten clean for her. She’d come home, have a quick bite to eat, check in on us and then off she’d go to 20 miles away to a remote location to help dad out with his takeaway business and either in the kitchen working away to about 2:00 in the morning and then come back home. So it felt like I never saw my family and never saw my parents. I didn’t really think much to it until other people would comment that, Oh, how come your home’s not so nice? So you’ve got red carpets or interior décor is not as nice? Or how can you wear the same clothes all the time? And that hurt a bit as a child growing up because all of a sudden we feel quite inadequate and we recognise that you’re not wealthy. I remember mom instilling the values of it’s very important to pay your debts and get your mortgage cleared, irrespective of what food you’ve got on the table or what luxuries you have prioritised. She just didn’t want to be in debt,

[00:05:17] So it’d get to a point where, you know, I’d go shopping and I’d want chocolate coated digestive

[00:05:21] Biscuits, which were five times more than the ordinary ones, but we couldn’t really afford it and I’d go without. So, I mean, that was OK, I got used to it. That’s the lifestyle I grew up with when I got to about 15. However, tables really changed. It became very difficult, just as I thought life was getting a bit easier on an even platform and we were getting some financial stability. Having mom around a bit more, we decided to buy mom and I decided to get a bike when we decided to learn how to ride a bike. And one August evening she went out on the bike. I was out with some friends. I come home to some crying siblings and the thing Where where are you? Where were you? Where were you? I said, Why? What’s up? My mom’s had an awful accident. She’s in hospital, so I kept calm. I thought, OK, she’s had an accident. She’s in hospital. And I then found out that she had a broken ankle, broken arm and a broken neck. Bush is alive and well in hospital and as far as I was concerned. Great, that’s good, because as long as she’s alive, she’s she’s going to be OK and people heal and everything good

[00:06:35] Until a neighbour

[00:06:37] Kind of broke the news to me. I was 15 and said, Your mom never going to walk again? And I was quite angry, actually, I was like, how dare you say that, how dare you make that judgement and what do you know? And he was actually a nurse, so he had some medical background and said, Well, in that country, she’s got a spinal injury and she’s going to be paralysed neck down and my world just came crashing down. I just couldn’t comprehend what life was going to be like. She was a specialist spinal injuries unit for about eight months. I was really left looking after the kids, then taking myself to school, bringing them home from school, not having a mom at all. And she was in an awful, awful state, mentally, physically. And eventually, when she did get some degree of rehabilitation and brought back home, life really was was never the same. You know, I was a full time carer for her.

[00:07:35] He had choice, you know,

[00:07:37] Simple things like just turning in bed or feeding her a glass of water. Everything had to be done. She could just move her head side to side. And tears would roll down horizon. She couldn’t even wipe them away. So things became very, very difficult. An age where, you know, I was only 15, but from that point I recognised that. I took it upon myself to think, gosh, I’m going to have to be the breadwinner of the family now. You know, I’ve got younger siblings, I’m going to have to raise them. I’m going to have to get money to look after my mom. So career choice became pivotal. And I remember sitting in the Careers Library looking through the Book of Career Jobs and. To put it bluntly, looking at the ones that made the most of which I recall there being stockbroker and dentist and I didn’t quite fancy being a stockbroker because it was not predictable. So I went for dentistry, so that’s why I chose dentistry, really.

[00:08:49] I think from a young age, my

[00:08:50] Dad had instilled into me Be a doctor, be a doctor. Just the typical Asian thing. Coming from York, it was quite conservative, predominantly Caucasian, and I felt some of the teachers did have a stereotypical prejudiced view against me. I was kind of the only Asian kid in school and they weren’t very supportive of my application, which was quite hurtful, so I felt quite alone on my own. And this perhaps, you know, I teach my kids to take risks, challenge authority, push the boundaries, don’t listen to what people always tell you. And I think it started from here. When on the UK’s bomb, there were six spaces and it was recommended that you should only put down five to be medicine or dentistry. The sixth should definitively be something a completely alternative career, because if you’ve not got into five of your applications, it’s highly unlikely know it’ll be wasted, so they have another career option. So I filled in the form my my grades predictions were not so great, so I went with the lowest grade requirements one to five and then six choice. I put down Manchester, which was the highest grade requirement, and I didn’t expect to get in there at all. I remember being very belittled and reprimanded by the head of sixth form saying Almost a stupid girl. Why have you not listened to one to put the six chances Manchester in the school? There’s nothing else I can see myself doing and she kind of touch it and the application went off and I remember waiting for UCAS to get back to me and I heard nothing. Everyone was getting offers and interviews left, right and centre, and one day the mail dropped through the post

[00:10:34] And I put it down to them, saving on postage and

[00:10:38] Giving me the results of five of the applications in one go, which were the first five of rejections. So I really didn’t know what to think. That was obviously the sixth choice remaining, which was Manchester. That’s bound to be a rejection of the first five have rejected me and miraculously, I got an interview from Manchester. I went to it and I recall being surrounded by other candidates who had come from quite supportive backgrounds, parents in the field or they’ve had several interviews, private schools etc. And I was quite unnerved and I thought, Let me just give it my best shot. And unfortunately for me, I got through. Manchester was the place that gamble about sixth place that I put down, and that’s where I got into doing dentistry. So yeah, that that was pivotal to me.

[00:11:27] I became a dentist.

[00:11:29] Wow. So, you know, people go through adversity. I mean, you’ve been through more than most from the sounds of art and tragedy as well. And you know, it’s a cliché to say these things to define you and shape you in it, but they do. Do you do you remember being a confident person all your life? Or did you have to sort of rise to the occasion that you were the only one that people were relying on? Do you remember that moment of deciding that or?

[00:12:05] Yeah, I think I lacked confidence as a child simply through the experiences of feeling inferior through poverty and feeling inadequate. And it kind of leads to even in later years and imposter syndrome kind of thing where you think, Gosh, you know, am I accomplished? You know, how do I compare? Have I really achieved something? Is it true? You know, so but then I think I’ve started doing a lot more introspection, self-reflection analysis and trying to dig deep and understand myself simply so I can also shape my children going forward as well. So that’s been quite an interesting journey for me in recent years.

[00:12:52] And your your kids your natural instinct with your kids is to try and make life easier for them, right? So have you found a way of building in adversity or somehow challenging them to build their confidence? Or or is it is it that I mean, I hope this is the real answer here that your kids will, you know, take on the world on a whole other level then than you did because you know where they came from?

[00:13:19] Yeah, I mean, I

[00:13:21] Wish I could build in adversity, but I think a parent’s natural instinct is to kind of give them everything that one never had. And in doing so, I’m beginning to realise perhaps disappointing them. But I do remind them that had I had the springboard that I could potentially give them now, you know, I would have, you know, gone to crazier heights, you know?

[00:13:42] They’re still young now.

[00:13:44] And you know, let’s let’s hope the take on board some of the messages. But I think building in some degree of adversity is certainly important at the right stages. Quite how I’m going to do that. I don’t know, and I think a lot of these professionals are suffering

[00:13:58] In the same scenarios with our pampered

[00:14:01] Kids, you know?

[00:14:02] So then, Jenny, you you decide you want you get into Manchester and you’re going to go there. What happens with your mum while you’re off at university where your younger siblings, they’re old enough to look after?

[00:14:14] No, they were quite young. So my interesting story. But my younger sister she was for the mum had her accident and now I’m a mum and I have a four year old. But I just think it’s harrowing to lose a mum and what mum must have gone through, just visualising seeing her kids for chaotic manner quite dysfunctional

[00:14:36] Around her mum. We had to get carers. Dad had to pitch in, so I just had to get my head down. I think I’ve got a very laser focussed attention and a determined set drive as a result of having that kind of adversity.

[00:14:54] And that’s perhaps what’s allowed me to

[00:14:57] Kind of be who I am today.

[00:14:59] So what happened, I mean, you left her, did you feel they were going to look after her? Did you feel they were going to have trouble? What was what was the story? What was going through your head?

[00:15:08] Immense guilt, heartbreak, upset. Continually thinking about her emotionally weak. Having to drive down the M62 back to York frequently at the drop of a hat. When issues happened at

[00:15:22] Home with

[00:15:24] Carers and the kids squabbling

[00:15:26] And dad playing up and things

[00:15:27] Like that. So it was very turbulent for me at university, actually. However, I never really let on. No one really knew where. At the same time, it was very hard to get through the exams and ensure I kind of passed at the end of it.

[00:15:41] Did you feel like you were now able to sort of live your childhood when you got to Manchester because you know you’re from from the age of 15? You were, you were kind of an adult? Did you feel like now you could actually go a little bit crazy, live a little bit for you?

[00:15:57] I think you know me pay. I’ve never really been a naughty girl. From my recent weekend meeting, I didn’t have the desire to actually, I think I was mature above my years and I didn’t have the mindset to kind of lift my youth because the reality of the situation was

[00:16:18] The home situation was still the home situation.

[00:16:21] What about Manchester as a city? I mean, you know, York is a beautiful place, but a small place. Did you? Did you not see bright lights, big city sort of feeling?

[00:16:31] Oh yeah, it was a culture shock to me to see people from so many different backgrounds and shops that are open rush on the Curry Mile. So it was vibrant. It was alive. It was very, yeah, it was very nice. It was a good contrast to York, actually.

[00:16:47] How were you the Dental student when you were? You determined to kill it, you know, because you were so responsible and you were going to you were going to do well at everything? Or were you more like me?

[00:16:58] No, I

[00:16:58] Was like, you. I think I really struggled. I doubted myself. I had to study harder than most. And yeah, I don’t think I found it easy at all. We were the bulgar the problem based learning experimental year at Manchester, so it was quite fiercely competitive at the time.

[00:17:17] So then you qualified. Then what was your first job as a dentist? Where was that?

[00:17:24] I’ve been lucky. Or maybe I’ve been perceptive because I’ve learnt a lot from the people that I’ve met along the journey, from the unsung heroes to people who have, say, larger than life profiles along the way. I feel I’ve picked up important lessons, so I did my bit in Manchester and my vet trainer. You know, he wasn’t a massively big personality, but he taught me a lot. So I picked up sedation skills from him. He encouraged me to sit the Ph.D.s at Bristol, which is registered for qualifications after my name, so I got into that straightaway during my year. He also taught me a lot about practise running a practise and business management. Subsequent to that, I then worked for an interesting man called Alan Siegel, actually, and

[00:18:11] He was a prominent businessman in Manchester at the time.

[00:18:14] He actually developed what they call the alma gauge, which is a take on the Willis height gauge and pro Dental matrix matrices, apparently his invention. So it’s a bit of an inventor and an entrepreneur. So I worked for his group of practises and shortly after, I think within about six months of working for him for six months post Viti, I decided to buy my own practise.

[00:18:39] Wow.

[00:18:40] I think that takes some some balls, isn’t it? Six months after VTi. I mean, would you say you’re sort of a pure bred entrepreneur? You’re that person? Or would you say you’ve learnt along the way?

[00:18:55] I think a lot of it was naivete.

[00:18:57] I think I’m quite sensible with finances and from my childhood I’ve learnt not to be overleveraged, which I think has acted to my disadvantage.

[00:19:06] If anything, because I think those that take risks and leverage themselves to a great degree have had great opportunities over the last 20 years, whereas from

[00:19:15] My experiences as a child, I’ve kind of been quite frugal with with my money and expenses. But for me, at that time, it was a simple equation. The cost of a property, a home versus the cost of a practise was very comparable and I thought, Well, the practise is going to give me a greater return than a home. So I did the practise first and then the proceeds from that invested into getting a home.

[00:19:40] So, you know, the mistakes that people make, especially when when you start. I remember when we started enlightened, we got our loan from the bank. Was that 80 grand, and I think I spent it in the first three weeks of it. So did you did you make some? I bet you made an. Mistakes at the beginning of it

[00:20:01] Financially, I don’t think I did that the mistakes I made were more on a air point of view managing staff. I found that a very difficult challenge the practise I bought had been in. It was an NHS practise. It was in the current ownership of the previous owners for the past 40 odd years. And here I was young, new and the existing staff just didn’t like change. And it was managing the personalities being significantly younger than, say, the 40 to 50 year olds than I was. Twenty four. God, you know, that was challenging. Managing people that I’ve never even recognised

[00:20:36] Was something to be overcome. I just thought business of dentistry was,

[00:20:41] Was the finance, the mask, the running, the practise and doing the dentistry. I didn’t understand the the human personalities that had to be managed as well.

[00:20:50] And now now is a seasoned practise owner. Which he put people skills as the number one skill.

[00:20:59] Hundred percent, I think.

[00:21:03] It’s all about the people, I think life’s journey, it’s about the people you meet, the the people you connect with and attracting the right kind of people into your life and bringing out the best in people to work to your advantage. That’s what I’ve learnt over the years to take a step back and try and understand people to bring out the best in them as

[00:21:25] Opposed to meet someone, make judgements and try and change them. There’s no point. I try and move on.

[00:21:32] What was the story of that practise? How many years did you have it for and why did you sell it? And that’s overall.

[00:21:38] Yeah, interesting. I think I made a lot of mistakes on that one. What they call Buster Nash at that time. So as a high grossing NHS dentist for a free meal, which is quite rare, I think once again pivotal character many of you may have heard of or know Vijay from Ivo Dental now. I met him very early on in my journey, actually, and I class him as

[00:21:59] A good friend who you know is an incredible man, very generous with his help and knowledge and assistance.

[00:22:06] He guided me on how to kind of understand the NHS

[00:22:09] System and the workings.

[00:22:11] So I was a high grossing dentist. I think I burnt out. It was that initial euphoria. While I’m a dentist, I’ve

[00:22:18] Got income coming in. Let’s just work every hour I’ve got and maximise on the potential which I did.

[00:22:26] I didn’t understand the significant

[00:22:29] Damages of being burnt out.

[00:22:32] I ran it for about five years. I actually took it from the fee per item system to the then PBS contracts and I negotiated with the PCT. And I think I was quite confident. I was quite good at negotiations and I got a really good contract in that era, which was at that time. Back in 2006, it was £42 per ooda. Wow. Can you imagine that and what they’re paying associates are now, so I know what was available

[00:23:02] And what maybe many principals have managed to get as the true value.

[00:23:09] But I hit a point in in life where I was exhausted and my perceptions of money were quite simplistic. Actually, by that time, I had a few properties that were all paid off. I paid off my practise. My wants and desires were very simple. So, you know, living in a I feel embarrassed to say this, actually, but maybe I shouldn’t. You know, at that time, for example, I lived in a three bed end terrace house. I had a Toyota Corolla car that was paid off brand new

[00:23:38] And the house was all paid off. And I had a few other investment properties

[00:23:42] And I thought, You know, I’m happy, I’ve got no mortgage. I’ve got nothing. I can sell the practise and I can have a decent amount in the bank. I’m happy to retire now. That’s it. I’m done. And I was about twenty six, twenty seven and being a female, my biological clock was ticking and I thought, This is it.

[00:24:01] I’m happy to be a housewife and have some kids now and I’ve done my bit.

[00:24:05] I’m retiring early and I moved down south to be

[00:24:09] With my husband, who had always commuted to his. His work was London centric.

[00:24:15] And I started a family and had a couple of children. And this will maybe resonate with some of the female listeners. The challenges of

[00:24:22] Work life balance, family, children.

[00:24:26] What I found was incredibly hard being a driven, intellectually stimulated person was that once you become a mom, it’s like you lose your identity and your self-esteem and you lose your sense of purpose. Almost, although being a mom is a wonderful thing and I lost my confidence. And it takes it can take its toll on your marriage,

[00:24:48] Where you’re more

[00:24:49] Demanding of your husband and you want them to be around and you want them to be tied to the kids as much as you are. And I felt I had no purpose. Actually, I tried to apply for some associate jobs in and around London, and I found the London circuit quite challenging, actually. There’s a wide range of principals who there’s a lot of sharks out there. Let’s put it that way, and I struggle to do the kind of dentistry I wanted to do. Pair that also with my eyes opening up to people’s financial earnings. My peers and people who are smashing it on a private circuit. And I thought, Oh my gosh, what I have perhaps is inadequate. Perhaps it’s not enough to sustain me through the needs of my family and children going forward. And that then gave me another drive to to start again. So, yeah, I was down in London and my husband was in quite a high profile job and I was hardly seeing him, and here I was lumbered with a couple

[00:25:52] Of kids and

[00:25:53] I felt I wanted to be back near Mom York. Then the leafy greens suburbs of York became very appealing from a school’s point of view, from a safety. Just a nice place to live, really. It was home. I was familiar with it, so I decided to gravitate back up north. And it was a massive risk because a friend advised me, If you’re going to do private, make sure your dentist is spot on, you know, as good as it can could possibly be. And in that time there weren’t many courses available, so I ploughed an incredible amount of money into

[00:26:31] Doing all the courses I possibly could. The ones that I deemed were quite credible at the time

[00:26:36] Simultaneously without a job to put the knowledge into practise. And then I set up a squat in New York.

[00:26:44] So let’s start, you know, I want to go back to a few things. Number one, in five years you had that practise, you pay the practise of your house of a couple of investment properties of did I get that right?

[00:26:58] Yeah, I had about four properties paid off on the practise. I owned the freehold of the practise as well.

[00:27:05] Bloody of that. Okay. And I guess you were also supporting mum in that period and some of your siblings as well?

[00:27:13] Yeah, I helped Mom buy some kind of investment property as well, so I made sure she was kind of financially secure with some passive income.

[00:27:20] Oh, how hard were you bashing the dash? That’s why?

[00:27:27] Well, I’ve told you my UDR contract value. So at that

[00:27:30] Time. Okay. And then dispel this one for me, the north and the south. You know that you said there are sharks down south or they’re not sharks up north.

[00:27:42] I don’t think the sharks

[00:27:42] Everywhere, to be honest. I’ve learnt that with time. A friend of mine terms some people smiling as Huffins. You know, there’s a lot of people out there, but you’ve got to be careful and and figure out the authentic people, the person.

[00:27:55] That’s a serious matter. The serious question. Do you find it easier with northern patients? And I mean, I found London quite a difficult town to be a dentist in. I was I was a dentist in Kent, and that was, you know, people were respectful. Maybe there were an older group of patients. It is always the better group, I think. But you know, what are your what are your reflections on London patients versus northern patients? You know that banter thing that people talk about from the North and how you know we see it as it is that whole thing is it is it rubbish or is it real?

[00:28:28] No, I think it’s real. I think people up north are more friendly horror of the Northerners, see? And it’s simple economic fundamentals. I think in London, the cost of living is high. You’ve got to travel. You’re more fatigued. People are just a bit more down in the dumps. They’re not earning as much irrespective of the London weighting, and the money doesn’t go as far. So in terms of disposable income is likely to be a lot less for the majority of the population. Yes, there’s the upper echelons who have got a

[00:28:57] Phenomenal amount of money and you can tap into that market, but that’s

[00:29:01] Few practises. You know, the general practise, what I found from

[00:29:06] Principals over there were

[00:29:08] I struggled to find a practise who was prepared to invest in the right materials and the tools. I was buying my own gear to try and deliver the right dentistry. People were reluctant to pay you properly, you know, making excuses, you know? So I found it. They think, Well, these

[00:29:27] Hard going from principal to associate, though?

[00:29:30] Yes, but no. Even today, I would love to be an associate if I was an associate in the kind of practise set up. I have a nice practise. You know, it’s about mutual respect and having the right set up to work and to be productive, really.

[00:29:48] Ok, so you know, we all know how well we don’t all know, but fresh, fresh Dental, you know, right now, massively successful practise. But tell me about the beginning. So it was a squat one. You had no patience. Fully private. Is that right or all?

[00:30:02] Yes, it

[00:30:03] Was. I mean, everyone talks about location, location, location correctly. So, but my location was based on wherever I could acquire a freehold and it had to be quick. I had a a two year old and a four year old around my ankles, and I was scrubbing the floors, cleaning up the plaster project, managing it, and it was at the back of beyond. There is no footfall where I’m based. It’s, you know, in a village kind of T-junction end of end of the road kind of Jungle Place. Which year was it

[00:30:37] That you started?

[00:30:39] Started 2009

[00:30:41] 2009. So no patients. What do you do,

[00:30:46] No patients, so I made sure my cost was minimal, to be honest, I had several quotes and I project managed it myself in the end with local builders, from plumbing to plastering to building walls, everything. And I got the cost down to a fraction, say one fifth of initial quotes. So I knew at the end of the day that I’d refurbish a derelict building. So worst case scenario, my exit was I could sell that and it would have really appreciated compared to what I paid for it. So I knew the risks were low in that sense. And then it was truly about customer service and delivering outstanding care and treatment so you can grow organically through word of mouth. I don’t believe there’s any anything as get rich quick and you know you could do a treatment modality. I don’t know, let’s say composite bonding. And if you’re not good at executing it well. For example, I’m sure there’s a lot of people out there who do it exceptionally well, but let’s say you’re doing it very rapidly to slam dunk it and get the cases in your work will soon fall apart and your reputation will become tarnished. And you can’t build a sound future on Rocky Foundation. So I think generally your dentistry

[00:31:53] Has to be good and your ethics have to be right.

[00:31:58] Yeah, no doubt about that. But but I really am interested in day one. No patients. What happened? What did you do to get patients

[00:32:05] Websites pay per click in those days? And that was it.

[00:32:11] That was at least what were

[00:32:12] You running that yourself? Were you running the ads and things yourself? Did you learn that that skill as well?

[00:32:19] No, I had someone doing doing it for me that you probably know very well, and he was very good. But I think that person also was on their journey of progression and things can go up and down. And then once I realised that how frail things can be, I started studying it for myself to understand the voodoo black hat. You know, the like what black magic, the black magic behind SEO and everything? Because I thought, Damn, I need to study this because everyone’s pulling the wool out of your eyes and charging your fortunes. I need to understand

[00:32:52] The fundamentals of what goes on because there was never

[00:32:55] Any guarantees

[00:32:55] Of anything, which is understandable.

[00:32:58] So you were single handed at that point.

[00:33:01] Yes, I was.

[00:33:03] So then what’s the progression? How did it go from there? How did it get to this? I mean, you know what? Give us the full story now. Where are you? How many members of staff? How many specialists? What have you got right now?

[00:33:14] Yeah. Now, thankfully, it’s really turned the corner and we’re

[00:33:18] Doing really well. We’ve got a great team

[00:33:20] And we can offer all treatment modalities at an exceptional level

[00:33:24] Because I believe in investing in the practise and all the mod cons

[00:33:27] And empowering your team to deliver the very best. But it wasn’t smooth sailing. I think I’ve had

[00:33:32] Some bad luck. I took

[00:33:34] On an associate who was straight out of vet that kind of failed the final

[00:33:39] Year exams and missed the vet tranche, so I paid out of my own pocket. I think twenty eight thousand at that

[00:33:45] Time to pay them to watch me work and learn private skills, you know, which is a great opportunity. And maybe I was a bit naive and I wanted to kind of whet the appetite as to what was possible. I kind of mentored them in implants. Small makeovers. Also, everything that I’d learnt, I said, Let me give you an introduction to it. However, you

[00:34:08] Must augment all of this with proper training and courses.

[00:34:13] I don’t know how much I should say, really, but this person was was phenomenal at

[00:34:17] Learning and taking on board things.

[00:34:21] And I felt confident in a few years to kind of have my third child. I hit 40 and it was a bit of a birthday party challenge. You know, I’d got back into fitness and someone said, You know, how dare you? Can you? Can you have a child? Yes. So, so I did. And when I went off on maternity, I remember, you know, doing implant surgery the day before my C-section and putting ortho a couple of days beforehand and patients saying to me, But Jenny, when are you going to be back as a don’t you worry, I’ll be back for your eight week review, you know? So I had the C-section planned and I was still hopping in and out of the practise, the bare minimum that I could. I needed to take time off. So things were in charge of this associate who, you know, I trusted. And then all of a sudden one day I get an email and it says, dear so-and-so further to your email. We have transferred X thousands into the BACS details given, and the email was from a patient CC to the practise. And I thought, that’s strange. Why is the patient ceasing the practise

[00:35:32] Of not emailing the practise direct

[00:35:34] On a scroll down the chain of emails? And we used to take BACS payments for large payments because it’s easy for

[00:35:40] Them to deposit straight into the person’s bank account.

[00:35:43] When I scroll down, it was the associates BACS details. Wow. There was a chain of communication that was kind of almost grooming the patient

[00:35:52] Into believing that this was the done thing and

[00:35:56] An intention to deceive by saying, Please don’t email

[00:35:59] The practise. We’re having problems with our email. Email me direct. I’ll be able to look after you better and give you a more customised service. Here’s my personal contact number. Blah blah blah. And I couldn’t believe it. I was like,

[00:36:11] Is this really what I’m saying?

[00:36:13] Did you? Did you consider the guy honest and a friend and, you know, mentee and order

[00:36:20] To be given the opportunity? And I did consider him honest.

[00:36:24] But I think there’s a real danger of putting a Ferrari in the hands of someone a bit young and naive, and perhaps greed, perhaps complacency and not appreciating what one has. When I read on the forums now of other dentists say on Dental Dental forum, you know the anonymous posts of this real struggles people are having. And I think, gosh, where were these people, you know, you know, there’s a lot of good people out there who just don’t give them given the opportunities. And here I was, I gave the opportunity

[00:36:54] To someone who completely trashed

[00:36:56] It. Yeah, but looking back on it? Were there maybe some signs that you didn’t see or you chose not to see? Or was it completely out of the blue?

[00:37:07] Yeah, I think there were some signs on reflection now they were coming in late to work. They were not doing their clinical notes. I was saying, you know, will you please do your clinical notes? Yeah, yeah, I’ve done it. And then I print out a list. Look, all these notes have been done. Please do it before you leave and they’d leave the door and say, Have you done any clinical notes? And they’d say, Yep, all done bare faced lying. And then a week later, I’d go and check nothing had been done. And then I’d say, Look, if you want to take time off, that’s fine. As long as we’re not rearranging patients, you know, in short notice. And then they’d call me up and say, Oh, you know, Jenny, can I just have this Friday off?

[00:37:43] There’s only two check ups. And I was like, Oh, OK, I’m just rearrange it.

[00:37:46] But later they’d been calling all the patients and moving things. So there were telltale signs.

[00:37:53] What did you do?

[00:37:54] What did I do? I was in shock. I called my indemnity first and I said initially to me, it smacked of theft, you know? And the indemnity said, you have to involve the police on this and you need to tell the GDC. And I was reluctant to kind of tell the GDC, but I had to involve the police to kind of get to the bottom of this. What was uncovered was far worse because when I went in, it was no longer theft. Although there was, you know, I had to take over the patient list with immediate effect and review all the patients. There were no clinical notes and there were no accounts, and I had to kind of tactfully speak to each patient, know what have you had done? Where are you up to new treatment? Can you remind me without me having to checking your notes? You know, how much have you paid so far, what you quoted? And then it all unnerved. Oh yeah, I gave nine hundred pound cash and you know, to did you give it to front desk? No, I gave it to this person, and I thought it was a bit odd because it put it straight into his back pocket. And I was like, Did you not think to mention it to reception? And they were like, Well, no, they said they were like a self-employed hairdresser and this was the done thing, you know, I deal with them direct.

[00:39:03] So Jenny, Jenny, Jenny, so sorry to interrupt you, but is that is it possible to pull that off without the nurse being on side as well?

[00:39:11] I think it’s yeah, I did question this, but I think people trusted in him implicitly. They thought he was just a really lovely person, very humble, duped us all. And I think it’s easier to seek that opportunity whereby they were liaising directly with patients via private email, communication, phone calls. And it’s very easy to say to the nurse, Oh, can you just nip down and, you know, get that from the printer or, you know, just a couple of minutes in the room, you know, it’s confidential. I don’t know. I don’t know what went on, but I mean, initially it was theft. But then what hit me afterwards and the theft completely paled into insignificance was the amount of neglect, clinical negligence. Oh no. And that was heartbreaking. You know, I was faced with an aftermath of implants placed into peril mouths the fast track. I’m not naming a system, but a kind of fast track ortho donor whereby a quick kind of offered an whereby teeth were not correctly aligned and composite bonding was very badly slapped all over without patient consent. They thought they had straight teeth.

[00:40:18] They were then coming back in retainers, not putting teeth, continuing to move, composite chipping off

[00:40:23] And a whole lot of vicarious liability issues. So something which had painfully built up over a long period of time was was really burnt to the ground and trashed in a bad way.

[00:40:34] What happened to him?

[00:40:36] What happened to him is still going on. It’s yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s all in the pipeline at the moment. Let’s see what happens. Yeah.

[00:40:45] So, you know, I was going to ask you, what was your sort of worst moment with a with an employee or a member of staff? But I guess that’s that one is that

[00:40:58] Mean the

[00:40:58] Worst really is when I was recovering from a C-section, you know, and not so well, baby as well. That was that was very difficult time.

[00:41:08] What about clinically was what was your hardest case clinically or your most difficult patient or something that went wrong that you know, you can, you know, we do it from we ask everyone this question, something people can learn from

[00:41:22] Clinically what I’ve learnt over the years, it really is down to patient management. It’s down to communication, it’s down to managing expectations before you do anything. And it’s the relationships and the rapport that you build with patients. I think if you get that on a firm footing. Fingers crossed you tend to be OK. Just a quick reflection back on you’re saying, you know, is it any different north to south and dentistry? I get patients travelling from from London and abroad and wherever as we all do, I’m sure. But patients often comment, Gosh, you’re more expensive than Harley Street, you know, but the pay, it’s fine, you know? So the opportunities are there, so going back to a bad experience, I remember when I first started on my implant journey, it’s quite a male dominated circuit and people say, Oh, you can, you know, shoot and implant in from across the room.

[00:42:13] You know, these egos

[00:42:15] That Typekit the same rights with anything and it’s dead easy and you just bang them in and Wasserman blah blah blah blah. And that kind of gets into your mindset and you think, Oh, OK, let’s just was it in. So I remember putting a 12 millimetre implant into mandibular region, and at that time we didn’t have CT scanners.

[00:42:34] It was OPG with

[00:42:36] A ball bearing and I’ve popped it in and right. Let’s just talk it right down. Get it one millimetre of crystal. None, the patient. I’ll give them my personal number. This was a Friday, Saturday. I’m at the gym doing a class.

[00:42:51] My phone rings, it’s the patient.

[00:42:53] And she said, I think she’s just going to talk about soreness or some antibiotic regime or something, which says, Jenny, the numbness is still there. My heart just sinks. Yeah. So I was like, Gosh, what do I do? And I was quite early on in my journey then.

[00:43:18] But she

[00:43:18] Was it.

[00:43:19] It was a lower right.

[00:43:21] Six Yeah. So then what happened? What do you do next?

[00:43:26] Yeah. So I thought, that’s really done for my career’s ended. She’s going to sue me. What do I do? So it was about conscious management research, and we cannot always look after the patient being honest with her and just managing her every step of the way that patients subsequently is a very good friend of mine. She gives me birthday presents. She’s brilliant. She’s great. So it just goes to show that I think it’s down to patient management can make a massive difference as to how you can navigate.

[00:44:01] Yeah, that sounds like something that went right, really.

[00:44:05] I’m more interested in something you do get rid of. There’s no doubt about it.

[00:44:09] Yeah, but I’m interested in something that went wrong from the management perspective. I mean, you’ve managed that one very well. I’m I mentioned something that went wrong

[00:44:17] And a recent lesson I’d say, and I don’t know whether it’s gone

[00:44:21] Wrong. I’m very cautious about treating lawyers.

[00:44:26] I think I’ve treated loads of lawyers, you know, I found them brilliant, but go on.

[00:44:31] Yeah, I’ve got a couple of lawyer patients who were

[00:44:35] Clearly quite clever.

[00:44:36] Yeah, and so there was a patient I treated with eye treatment, plant him for a two unit cantilever and a single crown on the roof.

[00:44:50] And it was a central in size and a lateral cantilever and a single crown on the three. And that’s what he’d been treatment planned for, sent it to the lab and had a discussion with the technician. And this was about 10 years ago and the technician said, No, Jenny, you need to just make it a three unit bridge, which I said, Yeah, fair doesn’t make sense. No. So I made it through Unit Bridge, fitted it, you know, didn’t really discuss it with the patient because I thought, Well, it’s insignificant to the aesthetic outcome,

[00:45:16] And the cost is the same for you. So it’s kind of irrelevant. The outcomes are the same.

[00:45:21] And then 10 years down the line, obviously, there’s a lot of occlusal factors in this patients in a

[00:45:27] Regular attender as well.

[00:45:29] There’s a fracture in the bridge between the the two and the three. The the bridge is fractured. And, you know, I said to the patient, You know what? Ordinarily, I’d kind of let’s plan a replacement for this. However, the prognosis of the three isn’t so great

[00:45:46] Anymore, and you’re better off looking at some sort of implant solution.

[00:45:51] But what I will do for you is kind of re

[00:45:53] Credit half the cost of what you’ve had done towards the implant treatment plant

[00:45:58] And they went away to think about it. I didn’t hear anything. Eight months later, they asked for all their records.

[00:46:05] But I think here we go and give them the records didn’t hear anything. I thought maybe they’d just gone to another

[00:46:11] Dentist and then another. Eight months later, I get some medical legal letters.

[00:46:17] And what they feel aggrieved about is I didn’t consent them properly for doing the three unit bridge as opposed to what they’d initially agreed to. But they’ve written in their letter of complaint that they’re happy not to press further charges as long as I personally continue to treat them and do all their implant treatment free of charge. And what did you do? I said on I said, let’s

[00:46:47] Take this all the way to

[00:46:48] The lawyer. You said that, right?

[00:46:50] Yeah, yeah. You know, because I think it’s incredibly unreasonable. Personally, I think about 10 years use of that bridge.

[00:46:59] So then what then?

[00:47:01] Well, then this is going through the motions. Oh, is

[00:47:03] That is that happening right now? You’ve got both issues that

[00:47:09] I why pick on lawyers?

[00:47:10] I was eating an implant the other day and it was on a lateral with very little bone. And I’d seen this person pre-COVID and then COVID hit

[00:47:20] And there were a lawyer and there were being very kind of frugal about money. And my gut instinct said, you know, I’d really rather not treat this. And then COVID hit. We kind of cancelled all the patients and didn’t end up kind of touching base with this patient again. We left the ball

[00:47:38] In their court to get

[00:47:39] In touch and cope. It’s been two and a half years. This patient’s back in the diary, what’s it doing? And I think, Oh, well, there’s this fate.

[00:47:46] Clearly, we’ll do it. So I’ll look in the mouth

[00:47:48] And say, you know, you do realise you’ve got quite

[00:47:51] A few units that are missing just generally around your mouth. But we’ve comprehensive treatment planning.

[00:47:57] This is just about before I’m about to do implant surgery. And he says, Oh yeah, that was my old dentist. You know, he did a root canal and it it done x y z. And, you know, after about six years, it failed. And he did a botched job and blah blah blah just really slamming his own dentist. And I just kept quiet and I gulped and I thought, This doesn’t sound right. And then I just said to him, So did you. Progress matters. I said, Did you pursue him? I just said, How did things progress? And he goes, Yeah, sued the bastard. I got a huge payout and it’s paid the deposit for my house, and I was like,

[00:48:37] Oh my God, the

[00:48:39] What happened? Did you treat him?

[00:48:41] Yeah, because I had to.

[00:48:43] I never went Well,

[00:48:45] Yeah, thank God. Well, let’s see. We’ll still trying to set two years down the line. Who knows,

[00:48:51] He’s actually doing the kind of work you do. It’s it’s high risk workers there. I mean that I’ve had a bunch of very high-profile implanted artists on this show, and all of them have a story to tell. Do you? Does it get easier? Do you know as the years go on and your experience gets more? I know it’s never easy. It’s never easy to get a complaint, is it? That’s never

[00:49:18] Easy. No, it’s not easy. But I think with the associate issue, I got used to handling about 30 complaints that were quite serious complaints. I’m quite seasoned at that. I think with Time Warner becomes a bit more humble and recognises how much more we’ve yet to learn.

[00:49:36] I think people don’t talk about their failures and issues as

[00:49:40] Much as perhaps we should, because it’s it’s a great learning opportunity. I think the

[00:49:45] The implant circuit is certainly male dominated and it can be full of some egos. There’s some very nice personalities out there as well, and that kind of makes one shy away from maybe discussing

[00:49:58] Failures and shortcomings.

[00:50:00] I used to lose sleep. I used to want to give up almost. But then implant dentistry is something that you invest more and

[00:50:07] More in, and the more you invest, you’re in at the deep end and you’ve got to kind of do or die and make it work and just go for it, really.

[00:50:15] So I kind of forced myself to do

[00:50:17] A lot of training, try and get some qualifications. Even when I was pregnant, I made use of. It’s all about efficiency for me, making use of that time and the Royal College of Surgeons exams was sitting was in Dubai at that time, so I flew out to sit my exams there. I remember the being at that time, it was quite tough set of exams to get through. I think we were the second cohort for Edinburgh and 11 international candidates and only three of us passed. Luckily, I was one of them, so that was good. So you just have to push yourself, really?

[00:50:49] What’s your advice for for a woman who wants to get into implant ology? I mean, tell me about it. When you say it’s male dominated, is it is it that the sort of the back slapping gung ho not admitting to your failures male domination? Is that what you mean by male? I know it’s more men than women, but but but but culturally, what does that mean culturally?

[00:51:12] I think along the lines of what you said, that’s the impression I think a lot of us females get. And I think the bottom line is that there are not many females in it. I think the cost entry points to a high considering what females tend to have to do with the family life and the work life balance is much harder to kind of get into that realm of work.

[00:51:34] Yeah, but but if there were loads of women implant managers out there? Are we saying what would be different, would would are you really saying people would be discussing their failures more?

[00:51:45] I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it’s a human thing discussing one’s shortcomings, failures, issues, insecurities, whatever you want to call it. I think people tend to be quite guarded in whatever capacity I think we should change up.

[00:52:03] I mean, I can imagine the men will say, you know, my implant drill is bigger than yours. Sort of, you know, men men have a way of do it, particularly surgeons, you know, surgeons in general, they’re that way inclined. What would you say to a woman who wants to get into an implant, ology now? What should she do?

[00:52:24] I think you should find mentors that you’re very comfortable with, people that are going to kind of build your confidence, empower you and kind of help you in your journey. I met a woman called Karen McDermott. She’s an unsung hero. She’s retired now. She was one of the first females in England doing implant dentistry. She’s on a par and good friends with Ashok Sethi and Sharma, so she’s of that generation and she mentored me and she really

[00:52:53] The times when I had down days she’d rock up at the practise and be there just to kind of support me. She was brilliant, you know, and she’s not one that’s kind of in-your-face and showing off and exuberant. She’s just an unsung hero. So I think you need to come across the right kind of people that are going to be supportive of you.

[00:53:14] But, OK, listen, I don’t know enough about it to explain it to me. When you say find a mentor is a mentor, someone who out of the kindness of their heart is helping you or is a mentor someone you pay to help you, or it’s going to be both.

[00:53:27] And I never found any.

[00:53:30] I think, well, I think there’s people that are generous with their knowledge to varying degrees and whether it be a phone call, a discussion or. Watching them and then there are people you’ve got today as well, understandably so, because they’re taking the day out to come and assist you and you pay fees to varying degrees, and that’s why the entry level costs are quite high. To kind of understand the game and the skill, I used a variety of mentors and people in my journey because I think as opposed to using the same mentor all the time, you can learn different skills. Everyone does it differently. Yeah.

[00:54:08] So break it down for me. What do I do? I’m a twenty nine year old associate. I want to. I want to become an implant ologist, find someone who’s very experienced and say, Can I watch? And then what do of course you do?

[00:54:24] I probably say, Don’t do implants.

[00:54:25] I’d say,

[00:54:28] Yeah, why? Because I think everyone’s jumped onto the implant bandwagon when

[00:54:32] You say everyone, but it’s very everyone jumped on to a line bleach bond, right? That’s what everyone jumped on to implant.

[00:54:39] There’s a greater volume of people that need B as compared to implants. I think there’s I think it does great. I think to where is

[00:54:49] Great, I think lost. Should I say there’s lots of other modalities and I think implants, there’s a lot of people teaching it and they’re making money. It’s a business of teaching Dental implants, so it’s in their interest to get more people doing it. But I think the risks are quite high. The learning curve is steep for an associate, is difficult investment and getting your structure and set up with the nurses and the sepsis and everything. There’s a lot to it and a lot of stress. So you have to be passionate, you have to be determined and you have to be carefully considered and sure that that’s something you’re going to do. What I have heard is there’s a lot of people that Double-Double done training and implant dentistry and haven’t continued it forward. There’s many people who’ve done it but not taking it any further, which is understandable as well.

[00:55:33] Yeah. Well, I definitely wasn’t expecting you to hear you say that. I mean, one minute you’re saying male dominated. I’m saying woman wants to get involved, ask for your help and you’re saying you would say, Don’t do it, let’s be.

[00:55:46] I’m sorry, I’m sorry. I thought you said

[00:55:48] What we say to anyone wanting to do it. I didn’t realise, well, OK.

[00:55:51] But it’s an interesting response here. You’re saying, really don’t do it unless you’re very, very serious. Yeah, yeah, that’s what you’re saying.

[00:55:58] Ok, I think you have to be you have to consider it carefully understand. I think a lot of people are misconceived implants to be a big, big money spinner. Let’s get into it because I’m going to make a ton of money. I think you have to understand that the learning curve is steep and it’s long.

[00:56:15] And now you kind of teach on some of these implant courses to yourself.

[00:56:20] No, not not most of it, I think now where I’m at. Interestingly, in my

[00:56:26] I’ve done the growth, the learning, the journey, the business, the practise set up, the private practise, female kids. I feel if you’ve heard of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, I really feel a point in my life where I think I’ve got enough. I’m really content financially and I want to kind of give back and

[00:56:49] Empower other people in whatever capacity I can.

[00:56:52] And when I was younger, money was important. And it’s a natural tendency to want to show that money off beat by a flash car, whether

[00:57:00] It’s because you enjoy driving it or whether you want to show it on designer clothes or whatever,

[00:57:05] It might be adversely for me. Conversely, for me, it’s I’ve gone the opposite. I feel that I don’t really have a desire to kind of exhibit wealth. My needs have become a lot more modest. You know, I’m on a dieting programme where hardly anything now, so I can’t even spend it on fine food. So for me, the driver’s isn’t money in finances anymore, but more connecting with people, giving back teaching, empowering networking. And I really love people. I think I like understanding people, and I feel that from a business point of view as well, I create synergistic partnerships, so I connect with people, try and identify their strengths and go into business along those lines. So if I tell you, you know, I’ve had a chicken and chip shop, I’ve had a car wash bed and breakfast holiday lets HMO student bills, property development. Wow, just various things. And it’s diversification. It makes life quite interesting.

[00:58:12] You mean you’ve partnered with people to do these these things?

[00:58:17] Yeah, I’ve been the majority shareholder. I’ve kind of had them running the business at the front end,

[00:58:24] So I’ve kind of vested in them.

[00:58:26] But what was your advice for someone who wants to do that? I mean, I find there’s a big trust issue there. Do you find do you find your finding your sort of buying into the person rather than the business? Is that the key thing?

[00:58:41] Yeah, you’re buying into the person. You’re trying to read the strengths of the person and you’re playing to their strengths and harnessing them on a platform that

[00:58:50] Can make it work for you.

[00:58:52] So, for example, the car wash business, you know, I had a bit of land, nothing was being done with it and had the adequate drainage new. An Eastern European guy was

[00:59:01] Really hard working, really wanted to do something, but just didn’t know what helped set him up. He runs it

[00:59:07] Off. It goes and he’s happy forever and a day, and then he’s got his team below him doing what they do best.

[00:59:14] How much does a business like that make?

[00:59:16] I shouldn’t go into figures, but

[00:59:18] I won’t say exactly, but I’m interested, I mean, there’s a chicken. Chicken and chips place make more money than a car wash, please.

[00:59:25] Depends how it’s run. Depends how it’s marketed. You get peaks and troughs. Ultimately, they are very profitable businesses. And for me, the main thing is it’s hands off. It’s passive income, you know? So, you know, there was a book that said, you know, if you invest in a business and it only makes you a pound, it really doesn’t matter because invest in ten thousand of those and you still don’t. Ok. You know, but it’s simple business models that are easy

[00:59:49] To

[00:59:50] Recruit for chicken and chips, for example,

[00:59:53] There’s not much on the menu, so not a lot.

[00:59:56] No, no, Jenny. Let’s be serious here. How many hours a week do you spend on the car wash business? Is it not even one?

[01:00:06] No. I just go and pick up the monthly money. That’s it, really.

[01:00:11] I just, yeah, I’m fine.

[01:00:13] But to be honest that that that is very much a side hustle. I think what I prefer is the holiday lets the bed and breakfast, the HMOs, the student lets. I think that’s that’s much more interesting. And there’s one guy in particular partner with

[01:00:26] And he runs all of that operation and we have weekly meetings.

[01:00:30] And I find that really interesting. Different.

[01:00:33] I mean, I was going to ask, you know, with that five years of the NHS, you did all of that. So what are you doing with all the money money now? I guess that’s what you do. What are your plans for the future, Jenny?

[01:00:44] Someone said to me, I’m very modest myself. I drive a very basic car. I wear very simple clothes for those that know me. I don’t want to think about what I have to wear on a morning. I’m quite petite, so I find clothes quite difficult to fit. So ironically, you know, I don’t have time and I went into Sports Direct and there’s a pair of track bottoms that fitted fine. So I went and bought

[01:01:03] 20 of them.

[01:01:04] So. And I thought on, I odd until I looked at, is it Mark Zuckerberg? He has kind of like 50 white t shirts and hoodies and just thought, Hey, that’s not bad at all. So, you know, when people see me in the same truck bombs, they do get washed different pairs. But someone said to me, You know, for me, the focus is my children now bringing them up right as good human beings. They will be my Gucci handbags and shoes, you know, that will be my desire. Designer adornments, my focus is, is giving back. And when I’ve looked for fulfilment in the journey of my life, initially, it’s been, you know, I want to be recognised for being successful or a business

[01:01:48] Owner or I want to be recognised for being wealthy.

[01:01:52] And I’ve realised for me a lot of that’s fickle and it doesn’t bring me fulfilment, and I couldn’t think of anything more

[01:01:59] Obscene than I think. It just wouldn’t be

[01:02:01] Fitting me if I was to drive around

[01:02:02] In an exuberant car or bling bling. I just feel very awkward and uncomfortable because

[01:02:09] That’s not me. And would it? Would that bring me happiness? I don’t know. Yes, I’d get attention. Would it be the right kind of attention of people really happy for you? Or does that elicit feelings of discontentment in others, inadequacy in others? People feeling jealous? Is that really what I want to be doing? So I’ve kind of reflected, and it started off to be honest, where the time when I had real struggles with my business and the associates shenanigans. There was one particular staff member and she’d only been with

[01:02:42] Me two years, so she was 60 years old. So she’s kind of at the end of her career

[01:02:46] And she’d had a hard life. She had three kids that she’d raised on

[01:02:49] Her own, and

[01:02:50] No one had ever kind of helped her out. She was made redundant from her previous job. She’d only been with me two years, and she had this old clapped out banner that finally failed its MOTY. And she kept saying to me at that time I drove a Kia Picanto

[01:03:05] And she said, Jenny, would you really please tell me your your car? I’d love a small car like yours, and I said, I really can’t sell you it because

[01:03:14] If anything goes wrong with it, I’d feel guilty. So she’s about to buy a second hand

[01:03:19] Used car, and I think, Oh, here we go, because this is going to give them nothing but trouble, potentially in terms of financial costs.

[01:03:26] And I went out and I spent £8000 on a brand new, well, a one year old Kia Picanto, and I gave her the keys. I said, Here you go,

[01:03:37] That’s for you. And I think many other people would have kept the new one for themselves and given her the old one.

[01:03:42] But it felt great. And to this day, you know, she’s still with me. She’s phenomenal. She cares for me so much and the business. And when I calculate it back, actually, it’s nothing

[01:03:54] More than having given a pound pay rise over so many years, you know,

[01:03:59] But that impact and that definitive difference it made in her life was incredible, and that fills

[01:04:06] Me with happiness, warmth,

[01:04:09] Fulfilment and what I’ve realised the act of giving, whether you’re giving

[01:04:13] Knowledge, support. Confidence to others, empowering others, it is very fulfilling for me.

[01:04:21] So, yeah, that’s where I’m at, really. I want to kind of give back to others and happy to help.

[01:04:27] Yeah, I mean, it’s one of the joys of work, isn’t it? Especially owning a business has so many difficulties, but that’s one of the lovely things about it is watching people grow and watching people be happier. Work for me is the most important thing for me, the team, my happier work. It has over the years. For me, it’s gone wrong as well, though, you know there are things that go wrong at work. Would you give some top tips or top tips that you would say for keeping staff happy, motivating people? I mean, if that’s true, it’s difficult. There’s no there’s no career pathway or not much of a career pathway for nurses and receptionists. How do you keep them motivated?

[01:05:07] Yeah, I think it’s it’s Dental leadership. It’s down to what you’re like as a boss. I think for me, I truly care. I’m sincere about my staff. I’m flexible with them. And yeah, there’s not career progression. But you know, as I grow financially as a person, they get remunerated very well as a result in time, and they’re aware of that. They understand that we grow together and the way I look at it is, you know, I’m very comfortable now and my kids don’t want for anything. But I was once in that position where, you know, I did desire and I didn’t have those chocolate, McVitie’s or whatever it was. And I look at my stuff and I think they’ve got kids, you know, their kids will desire these, you know, little luxuries and they deserve to have it. Why not? You know, life is short and we have so much as dentists. We are well-to-do relative to other professions. So I kind of definitely do remunerate them in in many ways, not just financially, and they feel loved and looked after. So, you know, they’re doing very well within the remit and the restrictions of their career pathways. And one has to accept there is a level of blue collar workers that will always be blue collar workers, you know, so not everyone that stacked shelves can kind of climb up sky high and not everyone wants to, either. But it’s making life as as as comfortable and pleasant and a joy to come into work, really. That’s what I like to do.

[01:06:39] Well, I know I know that that’s you know, what drives you. Speaking to you at Vietnam time, we saw each other definitely do the bit on connexion. I could just see your eyes lighting up when when people were asking questions and and with team as well. I’m sure you’re very strong on that side. So what are you going to do with this practise? Are you going to do more of them? What’s your five year plan?

[01:07:03] Yeah. Should I say, I don’t know. Yeah, I’ve got some plans, and I think it involves teaching others, empowering others, connecting with like minded individuals and creating win win situations, creating opportunities overall. You know, creating a legacy so that, you know, we’ve all got to go at some day. But you know, I do want to be remembered, you know, impacts, say your family or your kids for people to come up to my kids. I remember your mom. She was wonderful. She really helped me when I was down. She really changed the course of, you know what I’m doing now? Or, you know, I think that that’s really important to me.

[01:07:44] Look what bill of that 15 year old is still there now because, you know, at the beginning of the conversation, we were very much it was that sort of pressurised pain and tragedy. And and then there was a moment in the conversation when we’re talking about growing. And you know what? What Bill of you is still that same person I know we do. Most of you is, yeah, but you know the difference between the person you can’t buy the chocolate biscuit and the person who’s got, how many businesses have you got a good ten businesses on the go? All of all of this stuff going on that you’ve got going on now, do you feel pride when you look back on that story? Is your mom still with us?

[01:08:28] Yes, she is. She’s proud.

[01:08:31] She’s she’s proud. But oh, I should just interject my younger sister, who was four. Yeah. And this is why I mentioned it can be part of your DNA, perhaps, as well as necessity being the mother of invention and circumstance kind of pushing you

[01:08:48] To be the very best you can be. Would you believe she’s the owner of? She set up a vegan condom company called Hanks’ that stocked in boots globally everywhere.

[01:09:01] If you Google Hangouts is sold everywhere. So she’s done phenomenally well, and then she’s been offered

[01:09:07] By a major kind of

[01:09:11] Condom on the

[01:09:15] Phenomenal, eye watering amount of money to

[01:09:17] Buy out. So it just goes to show, you know, my mom being proud of me, I think she’s proud of all of us. We’ve all kind of landed on our feet and done well. And I think there’s something to be said for just being a really good human being and meaning well for others

[01:09:32] And connecting and giving back because I think it comes back as well.

[01:09:36] Prav is not with us for his final questions, but I’m going to ask them. You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your nearest and dearest around you. One of three pieces of advice you would give them.

[01:09:51] Gosh, this is hard, isn’t it? I think live life to the fullest, enjoy each day because you just don’t know

[01:09:57] What life can throw at you and how the course of your life can change.

[01:10:01] Really appreciate each day the fact when you get out of bed,

[01:10:05] You breathe the air, you’ve got a fridge full of food. Be happy. There’s a lot to be happy for.

[01:10:10] Be good, kind to others. Help others and

[01:10:14] You’ll be surprised how much that kind of benefits you in multiple ways. For me, it’s been financial. It’s been fulfilling

[01:10:23] In every capacity, any good deed I’ve done. It’s kind of come back tenfold

[01:10:26] To me

[01:10:27] And. We have the third piece of advice is. Is definitely try and do something good for others.

[01:10:35] You know, that was the second piece of advice,

[01:10:38] Is that the second piece of advice study hard at school

[01:10:41] Become a really. And one final question. We’ve been experimenting this with this one at the OECD, and I appreciate this coming out of the blue. So don’t worry to relax, you’ll get the answer. Dinner party. Three, yes. Dead or alive, who are they going to be?

[01:11:04] Oh, my gosh. Who would you like at a dinner party?

[01:11:09] Yeah. Dead or alive? Three gets.

[01:11:11] I think Payman, you’ve got to be there because I think you are

[01:11:15] Go of it.

[01:11:16] Great fun.

[01:11:21] Oh, three’s quite hard. I think I think Mukesh is a top bloke.

[01:11:27] But what I like that, but is, is he better than, you know, Gandhi? Oh, well, I’m right. I mean, OK, me, Mukesh and Gandhi, it’s a good one.

[01:11:44] Yeah.

[01:11:48] All right. Thank you so much for doing this, Jenny, and what a what an inspirational story. I mean, you know, one side of me says, you know, a little small lady who who’s you know, from from an ethnic minority and look what you’re to see. But there’s another side of me that just says, just, you know, it doesn’t matter who you were or who you are and they’re going through what you went through, doing what you’re doing now. It’s just proper inspirational. So it’s it’s really nice to have you on on the show. Thank you so much for doing this.

[01:12:22] Oh, thank you. Really appreciate it. Hope it’s been an inspiration to others and free for anyone to reach out in any capacity for help or advice.

[01:12:30] Yeah, I think there’s going to be a bunch of ladies asking for mentorship now. All right. Thanks a lot.

[01:12:39] Thank you.

[01:12:42] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:12:58] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] And the one thing I do with my team is you’ve got to find out what motivates each person. For some people, it’s money, it’s overtime. They like a bit of overtime. Some people like a bit of a night owl, the like a night owl to meal a day. So foster the culture, foster a bit of everything in your team.

[00:00:15] You know, try and sort

[00:00:16] Of get everything that people like, try and touch upon a little bit of everything. That’s what I try and do. I try to keep happy, so stand back from it because working with the same people every day can get quite sickening and start to you start to despise the people you work with. It’s part of a burnout process. You go in every day to the same small surgery and you see the same people. But look at look at the overall good. Are they working hard? Are they coming on time? Are they working? Are they working for the practise? You know, trying to do what’s best for the practise? If you see these things in your staff, give them a little bit of leeway. Yeah, if they’re sick one day just off six, I’ve got a nurse who’s in every single day she’s in no matter what. She’s the one I rely on. She’s a pair of hands. She’s in every single day. If she’s off sick one day, I’m not going to because I don’t pay sick days. I paid her. I’m not. I’m not going to not pay her. I paid her. You know, it’s not a big deal.

[00:01:06] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki gives me great pleasure to welcome TJ Mel onto the podcast. I’ve come across a on the Dental scene a few times in real life, but where I come across in the most is somehow on the Dental boards, where he’s a regular contributor and I’ve always liked his his angle on the things that go on in general. Practise is super experienced. General Practise Guy said three practises NHS private and mixed right now, practising out of Wakefield. And the reason I wanted him on is because he’s put himself forward for election at the BDA, at the IPC level, which I’ll get him to explain what that means to everyone. And you know, for me, people who put themselves up to get involved, they deserve a platform. And I know there are many others who have put themselves up. But since I know tech, I’m going to encourage people to put themselves up and get a platform to talk about. But you know, this podcast, which I hope you lovely to have you.

[00:02:26] Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me on.

[00:02:27] Yeah, it’s a real pleasure. It’s a real pleasure. We’re just going to try and get to the sort of the person behind the persona, really. So just to tell us a little bit about where you grew up, how you grew up, why you became a dentist,

[00:02:40] Why we did this. Well, I grew up in basically all my life in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire. I haven’t really moved out, had some great vision of going to London. Never really happened. Kind of settled here. Qualified from

[00:02:53] Leeds Dental interview

[00:02:55] 2001. I kind of like Derek. I like West Yorkshire. It’s nice. You know, it’s people are friendly, all that kind of thing. Why are they going to dentistry? I mean, I’ll be

[00:03:03] Honest with you, I was

[00:03:04] Thinking two planks of wood. I had no idea what I want to do. I was 16, 17, 18. My father was a doctor

[00:03:12] And he was like, Ted, you know, you

[00:03:14] Want to do something and do a profession come from an Indian background. It’s very much a case of, you know, it could be a be a doctor or whatever, and you go do something. I had no great passion for anything. I was not very good at a lot of things. So, you know, my father, just like getting something that’ll get you a job at the end of the day, which which is fair enough because I think it’s an honest answer. Nobody, nobody grows up wanting to, you know, liking teeth, you know, so it’s one of these things you just end up being. And as an eighteen year old, you just get into dentistry. No, you have to get through it. And that’s it. So you end up there and that’s it’s actually after you qualify it, when you start to like it, hopefully for a lot of people is when they develop plans and start to enjoy the job, enjoy the profession.

[00:03:57] Did you not enjoy Leeds studying in Leeds?

[00:04:00] I love Leeds is a place. I hated the course. I hated dentistry. Of course, I was not very good at it. I was always at the bottom. I was not. It was not very good. Like I said, I was very thick. I couldn’t really process things very well. Even now, I’m a slow learner. So as of now, I’m in my 40s. I often, you know, you know, yourself a lot better. You know what your limitations are. So I often tell people, I’m a slow learner. I need to work on things. I need to spend a lot more time like mentoring. So I’m just doing implants and a lot more mentoring and a bit more time than some of the people. So they’re always in our professions are always high flyers, always people who pick up things early and one way or another. I knew my limitations. I work with them to my advantage, I think to an extent. So, yeah, that’s where I’m now.

[00:04:40] Really, I love that. I love that. I love that because, you know, self-awareness, right? Is maybe the biggest skill you can have. The biggest talent you can have is absolutely, absolutely where you stand in the world. And you know, I’m disorganised. Yeah, yeah. And I had a thing in my head saying, you know, a disorganised person will never do anything really amazing. Yeah, yeah. And then and because I’m disorganised, I sort of surround myself with organised people. And I was I was at an event a couple of weeks ago and I met a guy. He said, Yeah, I make rockets.

[00:05:18] I was like, Yeah, I was like, I was like, What rackets?

[00:05:21] And he was like, he was the rockets. And he was he was telling me he’s disorganised and it was so empowering. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:30] I love this. I think we all have our own limitations, and I think it’s recognising them. So through schooling, through school, Dental school, I was I was slow. I was a slow learner. I was never a high flyer academically, so it was working with limitations. Even now, it takes me a long time to grasp concepts, but that’s fine. I work with it and you.

[00:05:48] What would you say? You’re your sort of superpower is, though was you good with your hands or you could be people or what’s your I think the people.

[00:05:55] I think it was the people thing. I think that’s what I picked up was good with people. You know, all the practises I initially worked in earlier is a very sort of typical NHS practises around Yorkshire. These mining towns I like the sleeves of have a good banter with the patient and I could really sort of gel with the patients really well, and that’s sort of worked in my favour. You know, and that’s what I enjoy doing, to be honest with you. I mean, I’m never going to be one of these guys. High end Dental Spa. It’s just not me. I almost Leaders I would like to

[00:06:22] Get on with it. I like to do all

[00:06:23] Different aspects of

[00:06:24] Industry. Yeah, I beg.

[00:06:25] I beg to differ, Matt, because the main skill you need to be in a high end Dental spa is the communication skill.

[00:06:31] Yeah, yeah, probably. Well, it may be. It might be. It may be a little different. Yeah. I said, if you know, I like the Yorkshire folk, I’m a Yorkshire bloke. I like to talk, you know, with Yorkshire guerilla sleeves that we get on with, they have good banter. Talk about the football sport, whatever you wanna talk about. We we just have a laugh and that’s me and the whole team as well. We all get on and that’s the way I do my practises and it seems to work for me to an extent. So yeah, that’s that’s a nutshell what I am really like being. I’m down to earth.

[00:07:01] Yeah, go on. Take me back to your first job, first job.

[00:07:05] If it velvety, I guess it’s current county, all vocational training that was in, that was in Grimsby. Yeah, because the

[00:07:13] First boss really, I’m looking for.

[00:07:15] Who was that person? My first boss was a great guy. A trader called Nick Samson in Grimsby. Greg, I can make Samson. He had his moments, but he was a he was sort of so ethical. It used to stress him out almost, I think, to be honest. But he really instilled me, instilled in me a few few of the ethics along the way of what to do, what not to do, blah blah blah. We’ve got to say and how to get out of situations and all that, which helped me a lot in my early years, a lot. Then second job, I’d say, sort of, you know what I mean? But then second job, I started working for John Milne in Normanton on a part time basis, who was a bit of a mentor really as well at the time. So, you know, got a lot of, you know, a lot of experience working with him in his team. I was only doing two days a week there, but whenever I bump into him, I always used to sort of pick his brains on there on what’s going on.

[00:08:08] First, couple of bosses are so influential, I find.

[00:08:11] Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. The first first few shape shape your career going forward and you, you know, you pick bits. You sort of see how they’re dealing with their team and how they deal with their patients and what to say. And oh, I can get away with this and you can’t do this and you can’t say this, and it’s just fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. I think you kind of sets you up.

[00:08:31] So then your first practise at NHS one, you said yes. Yeah, yeah, back

[00:08:37] When two thousand five, I believe

[00:08:41] 2005. Yeah, I was working there part time. I knew the gentleman wanted to sell it and I thought, Look, you know, I was getting fed up of sort of being told was surgery to work in which the nurse you get. And I will sort of wanting my own place really with my name on the door and and thinking. So it was a case

[00:08:58] Of, yep, we did a deal.

[00:09:00] It was up for sale. It was a deprived practise in one of the poorest areas of Bradford. Looking back, was it the right practise for me? Probably not. I’ll come onto that later.

[00:09:09] But at the

[00:09:10] Time it seems to work, you know, seemed to work. I knew the team. It just seemed to work. I could just get on with it. I was already there, working there a couple of years. So yeah, all fitted in. I took over and I had that place about seven years before I sold it.

[00:09:25] What was the main driver to sell it? That you just felt like it wasn’t you?

[00:09:28] It wasn’t me. There was, uh, there was a big a bit of a story behind it, which is interesting, which I’m happy to just sort of go over it. It was. He was all going well. It was all going well. 2005 2011 is all going really well hunky-dory. We used to go out with the staff, have a good laugh. Everything was fine. And then August the 19th 2011 Friday evening, I get a letter from the PCT asking for about 20 record cards. So I get this record asking me for 20 record cards. So I said, Right, OK, I know. In fact, sorry, it was earlier in August, it was August, around August, the 8th August the 6th asking for 20 record cards. So the Dental advisor came in, took 20 record cards the following week and went away with them. I said, fine, no big deal. I might just get a little bit of advisory. No, to what? You know what it should be writing. My notes, blah blah blah didn’t hear anything. Friday, the 19th of August. This is the evening I received a letter and it went to my old old address, my old home address, actually. So I had to go there and get it. I get a letter saying that we are calling you for a meet for a hearing on the following Wednesday. So I had

[00:10:41] Basically for Friday

[00:10:43] Evening already. So I had three working days, two working days, Monday Tuesday to prepare. We’re calling you for a hearing to decide whether we’re going to suspend you from front of the performers list. Wow. I don’t the blues

[00:10:54] Out of the blue.

[00:10:54] So I was like, Where did this come from? They felt my, you know, my notes. I was working very hard to get. My notes weren’t good enough. I was seeing a lot of urgent cases. It was, it was. It was pretty much overkill. So anyway, this this this is a turning point in my career because up until that point, I had been pretty much self-reliant, said nothing will really. Happened to me because I’m pretty good with my patients, my dentistry is not bad, I’m pretty good, my patients who cannot touch me and I have my indemnity or who are with that ring of help and how wrong was I rang them up Friday evening. Someone on Cold Person Evening takes the phone call and says, Send everything through to us. We can’t sending anyone to the hearing with you. You have to go on your own. It’s too late right now. So you’re on your own. But basically send us everything through. We’ll try and defend. It will look through whatever’s what. So there was me on a Friday evening worried sick, not knowing what to do, who during. I rang one of my old bosses who said he wasn’t really experienced enough to come to the hearing with me. And then I remembered I spoke to one gentleman, and I probably probably shouldn’t name him right now. I probably shouldn’t name him, to be honest. But he was very high up in the media in the past, and I remember having a conversation with him over a pint at a CPD lecture once.

[00:12:15] So I just tried him and it’s 19th of August 2011 and everyone was usually on hold the day at that time of the year. So try it on his number because that’s still at his mobile number. And I pick it up and he says, and I said, It’s Ted, and he says, Ted, yeah, yeah. I remember. Yeah, blah blah blah, you know? And I said, Look, you know, I’ve got this letter calling me to hear hearing on the Wednesday blah. You know, I’m worried sick. What do we do? And he said, Ted, you were going to get these guys. He said, that is absolutely out of order. We’ve got an action plan. He goes Saturday morning, we’re going to sit down. He goes, We’re going to go through it all by email. Let’s prepare an action plan. Let’s get this sorted. And by the Sunday, I was getting a little bit confident I could fight this. By the Monday, I was collecting record cards. I was collecting testimonials from patients I treated and everything. And on the Wednesday morning, me and this gentleman walked into the hearing. This was 24th of August 2011, so well over ten years ago. Now we walked into this hearing and as soon as this gentleman came to the hearing with me, the medical director, the Dental advisor

[00:13:21] Sort of just

[00:13:22] Smiled and said, Oh, hi, yeah, we know you. He was that revered in the profession. So the way he did it with me and sat down, we asked each of the questions and he asked me what my area was like, and it was a deprived area in. Most of the patients don’t come back for exams, they come for urgent treatment and disappear and et cetera, et cetera. So I didn’t get suspended, they gave me an oxygen plum for a year, which was pretty much hellish anyway because it involves sort of going back

[00:13:48] To like

[00:13:49] A Dental school way of working on haze in a deprived area, which was putting me more and more behind. So that led to be, I mean, to sell the practise, which is the best thing I ever did. Moving on from the practise. So I work there as part of the year as an associate, you know, under the new owner. But that was a turning point, really, which sort of got me into mentoring and helping the dentists. And the fact is that, you know, there’s the help out there, and I’m glad now we’re in 2021. There’s a few organisations out there that you can speak to. It’s not just you on your own and your indemnity. It’s there’s other organisations like Confidential. I became a mentor for the Yorkshire Deanery at the time, and they’ve just set up a pass through the LDC, the set of Practitioner Advice and Support Service Scheme, which I’m also one of the members of.

[00:14:36] It occurs to me that, you know, if you hadn’t have had made that call. Yeah, things might have turned out very differently.

[00:14:44] This this was the thing. This was the real key turning point. It was about nine thirty. I remember I was absolutely, you know, I mean, this is the dangers out there that probably this position with GDC hearings or whatever, but when they get a letter. But I was turning, I was just ripping my hair out, just absolutely thinking, This is it. Everything’s coming down to me now. It’s a 20 page letter saying, you’re going to call for a hearing because you’re a safety problem to a patient. You’re it’s a safety issue. So I made this one phone call to this one gentleman and the confidence he instilled in me and the action plan. He said that you have to do defy these guys looking at the demographics of the population and going through it all in detail, getting testimonials and all this. And we went in there and we did it or we did the job and I showed them that, look, I’m a safe dentist. My patients liked to see me. I’ve made some mistakes in the notes. Admittedly, I admitted where I went wrong. And you know it one of those things, and it’s fine, they said. I find it’s an action plan given and they said, Just do this action plan you fine.

[00:15:45] So why don’t you want to name the guy?

[00:15:48] Uh, I don’t know if I should put him in it, really. I mean, I can’t do it, actually. I mean, I mean, I don’t know if I should do. I don’t know if it’s my if I should do, whether he is in that role anymore or not. I’m not sure, but

[00:16:02] It sounds like a great guy

[00:16:04] Is very well revered. He’s very well revered, very well known in that industry. So that was really a turning point, to be honest with you. It ended me selling the practise, paying the PCT back in the realm of a barrel. They find me through thirty two thousand pounds anyway for inappropriate claims. And then I will seventy thousand pound behind on OODA. So I think I paid back about a hundred on ground in the end. By the time I sold the practise just to the PCT just a day ago, go take the money.

[00:16:30] You didn’t know you were doing anything wrong. Is that right?

[00:16:32] I was just working very, very fast on a lot of patients seeing a lot of virgin patients. I didn’t realise that you needed to do all these exams on everyone as well. And I was a bit of an outlier in certain areas. I didn’t realise all this, but I was doing what I thought was in the best interest of the patients. The patients were very happy. There was no issue, so I thought that was eight. I didn’t realise you had to work within parameters of being your averages. This was something because it comes on to something else. I was doing at the time managing the practise. I was doing everything myself. I was doing all the management myself, all the audits, everything myself to the point where I took my eye off this one area, which was keeping an eye on on the parameters of what we were doing. You know, we were doing too many of these, too many that too many agents, et cetera. So that was a steep learning curve.

[00:17:20] That’s what the biggest, the biggest thing you learnt about that dude was it like, you know, to not do everything yourself

[00:17:25] Going, not do everything yourself. Yeah, there are some things you can let go. I was I became OCD almost about like having every policy underwritten and signed by everybody, and everything had to be right, the policies and they all to be filed correctly. And everything that took my eye off the actual fact that I was building up all these so-called inappropriate claims that would trigger and go red flags to the PCT.

[00:17:47] So then so then going forward, did you learn that lesson or did you put it into action?

[00:17:51] I mean, I think actually we we thought the claims out. I delegated a lot more to practise, man. No, no.

[00:17:56] But I mean, I mean, the next next practise along. Yeah, you moved on. Yeah. Did you stop trusting people? You know, in a way, it’s a bit of a control freak way of doing it. It is.

[00:18:05] It is. It’s a lot of what it’s what a lot of dentists suffer from. And I basically now I’ve started focussing more on the claiming the clinical aspects of the practise. I’m saying to my manager, Look, you know, you’re dealing with this bit, I’m not doing it. This policy, this is not for me to do. You know, you’re doing the wages, you’re doing the policies. I’m going to look at them, that’s fine. But I’m working on the clinical aspects. That’s what I’m focussing on now. So, yeah, I think it’s down to delegation. I know it’s probably suffering at the time in Bradford as well, something that a lot of us suffer from it. We’d always know it at the time, so was probably suffering from burnout as well. And I didn’t even realise it. I was doing far too many udas. I didn’t even realise it.

[00:18:44] Yeah, you get on the treadmill, don’t you?

[00:18:46] You get the treadmill, you get the treadmill. It produces endorphins. You think, Oh, I need to do this Friday evening, do a Saturday and you do this and they do that and there’s a gap. Get the gap filled and you do this and you don’t really switch off.

[00:18:57] So and it’s burnout

[00:18:58] Without realising burnout creeps up on you very slowly and it and you start faltering in other areas. And I think that was my problem at the time, to be honest, trying to do too much.

[00:19:08] So then the second, the second practise, what was that? Where was that?

[00:19:12] The second one was actually I had it the same time as I had the Bradford one. Towards the end, I bought a small

[00:19:17] Private one

[00:19:18] Again, again, a mistake thinking that I need a second practise because this is what you meant to do. Yeah. Hmm. Oliver made such second practises. I was meant to have a second practise, so I went and bought one forty miles away in a partnership, which is a very small practise. I need a building up. So I was losing money of the Bradford practise, travelling 40 miles to this smaller private one, trying to make money off that one and sort of tearing my hair out again. Another lesson I learnt was don’t buy something because it’s cheap. It is very cheap. So I think it yeah, it’s really cheap. Let’s buy it. It was cheap for a reason. Took a lot of work and I lost money. I was losing Udas at the breakfast practise. Yeah. And so I was working between the two, so I didn’t get the management rights again. Second mistake. It was very far away from home. Cheap practise. Just, you know, for me personally, I’m not saying

[00:20:14] This would be perfect this way.

[00:20:16] It has a small contract. About 3000 Udas wasn’t much, but it wasn’t really worth buying and leaving the Bradford one. You know, it wasn’t really didn’t really make sense. But somehow I felt at the time I needed, I know the practise. I think it was a bit of an ego thing because I had this Bradford one, which is a very deprived, poor area. I felt I needed a bit of a higher end sort of private kind of practise. And again, it comes down to this reason of why you want to buy a practise. You need to have a compelling reason to buy a practise. And I tell a lot of young dentists this. Don’t just buy one because your mates are buying one or whatever, you know, I need to buy a practise, need to buy a practise. What are your specific reasons for buying a practise? And if they don’t really have a specific reason, I’ll say, just wait. Wait for the right one. I just just don’t buy one. You know, carry on an associate. This is the problem. It’s when I bought the first practise Bradford one. The thing was the difference then was I was very clear why I wanted to buy it. I wanted my name on the door. I wanted. I wanted the change, the wallpaper. You know, I wanted to do my way. I want to control. I wanted. I wanted that aspect with a private wall and it was an ego one. He was an ego trip. I want a second practise. Yeah, yeah, I want to. I’ve got two practises. Second one as well. It’s a private one. Yeah, no real reason for buying. It didn’t really look at the figures. Didn’t really think what I’ve been losing in UDS is this practise by going and working for lower private fees and the other practise.

[00:21:39] And you know, it’s quite difficult. It’s quite difficult, isn’t it? I mean, we’re not trained to read balance sheets and, you know, properly understand profit and loss and all that. I don’t know whether you did or you didn’t, but but there is that aspect of it. And yeah, running, running, running a very high needs NHS place and then a private place, two totally different skill sets, two

[00:22:01] Totally different skill sets. So I’m going across similar power to the private one. Yeah, do some nice private work. Do Masaryk, whatever they’re doing, all that kind of stuff, then you’re coming back the next day and it’s just practise with 10 toothaches. Book 10 and, you know, until a totally different mindset. I think I think I think the key factor with the private one was it was too far away if it was close, so we could have made it work. But the fact it was 40 miles away were just ridiculous. You know, we could have turned it around a bit more, but it’s one of those life lessons. It didn’t work for me, so we sold out after four years and I went back to being an associate.

[00:22:35] Wow, what a it is. What a big change. And did you lose money on on the private one?

[00:22:42] I did it well. If you look at the fact that I lost money on the Bradford one because of the private one, yes, I did. I think I made about 3000 pounds in the private one in the end when we sold it.

[00:22:54] You know, we bought it for

[00:22:56] 20k and I made about 20. I mean, it was it was ridiculous. I paid for my service when he came. I don’t mind talking figures. I paid about £20000 for it and my partner paid of 20k. And in the end, I think I made about 3000 by the time I’d take the money out. But in fact, I’d lost more because I was losing money money that Bradford practise. It was falling more and more behind.

[00:23:14] Yeah, yeah, opportunity cost, right? And all that headache, the headache of buying and selling a practise, right?

[00:23:20] Yeah, exactly. It was a buying and selling it all that. So.

[00:23:23] So then when you got an associate job, did you resent that fact or was did you do this sort of thing? Nice to have a breather. Nice not to have the responsibility for a while.

[00:23:35] Yeah, it was nice. It was a nice break, actually. I worked for I worked for a decent guy, to be honest. The guy who bought my Bradford one, actually. I said to him, Look, I can’t work in Bradford anymore. I want to work in one of the two practises. He gave me a job. One of his other practises. And you know, he was he was a fair guy, actually, to be honest with him, still in touch with him now and again. He gave me a job in his hotels, full of practise. I worked there for about a year or so, but there was there was that deep down saying, Oh, you know, I was getting moved surgeries and come in the morning and suddenly say, Look, you know, you’re giving a trainee nurse going to move to the surgery. And I was getting over the trauma of the whole events of 2011. Yeah, I was just getting over them slightly and I thought, Look, you, you know, that’s in the past. Now it’s time to move on. Don’t dwell on the past. And you know, I was only 36, 37. I said, it’s time to buy into the practise and learn from your mistakes.

[00:24:26] So I put

[00:24:27] Feelers out there and all that. And then this practise close to me 20 minutes away came up and it was just it was just bang on. I mean, he couldn’t have come at a better time, the perfect number of Udas 8000 Udas. I don’t want a single mall. I’ve got some therapists in there now and we’re doing a bit of private, which is good. So yeah, it kind of works. You know, it’s it’s a nice area. It’s all fee paying patients, lovely patients. And I actually like doing this like a second home. I love going there every day.

[00:24:54] That’s always a nice sign, man. It’s always a nice sign. I mean, it’s it’s never going to be like this in dentistry, exactly right. But you know when for me, when when you don’t really know whether it’s a weekday or a weekend for me, then I know I’m enjoying my life. I’m enjoying my job. Yeah, yeah, I’m looking at, Oh, it’s Thursday. Tomorrow will be Friday. Then I’ll be the weekend that I can relax.

[00:25:20] Yeah, yeah, yep. Yep, yeah.

[00:25:22] When the job’s not right, the weekend becomes this gold and it becomes the gold.

[00:25:27] Absolutely. When the

[00:25:29] Job is right, the weekends, just the weekends, just another

[00:25:31] Day. I think it’s great. I don’t mind doing the old Saturday morning. I was in there today doing some paperwork because it’s near my house. It’s like a second home to me. Yeah, yeah, you know, I’ve got it set up in the way I like my house. It’s like, I’m not saying it’s a well decorated, but it’s nice. It’s nice inside. I go in there. If you referral letters, as soon as I’ll have a Monday morning off, so I don’t get the Monday morning blues every Monday afternoon, short week, Wednesday half day, short week, it’s nice. You know you can put these for these little things in there to give you a nice working life. And like you said, you know you’re not looking for the Friday, you’re not looking for this thing. And I think a lot of people, they’re looking for peace and industry. They’re looking for peace. You know, you come in at eight, you do your Dental, you know, you do your five years, you come out in a job and they’re looking for peace. And the moment they get a complaint to get this ticket that it just rattles them. A registry is not a peaceful profession. It’s an adrenaline pumping profession. You know you’re on this, you’re on this treadmill from the word go, whether you like it or not, whether it’s NHS, whether it’s private, you’re on this, you’re on this sort of treadmill rollercoaster where anything can happen any time. Yeah, yeah. And there’s no peace. You know, you’re not going to any peace in the industry. It’s not it’s not getting all that kind of job. So I realise that I realised that I stood up for 2011. I realised it very well in a very harsh way. I realised it. And since then I’ve been I’ve been trying to sort of work within that, knowing that things can come up.

[00:26:51] So it looks, it sounds. It sounds like you’re kind of at peace now, don’t it?

[00:26:55] Yeah, I’m at Peace Now and a Peace Now. I like I said, going back to being a slow learner, slow thing. I am working at probably 70 to 80 percent of my capacity now. Yeah, yeah. I’m like, I’m like, I’m not. I’m like a boxer with his guard up with his back leg, ready to move back because I know things can happen any time. So I’m not pushing the envelope like you used to do before I used to try things. Oh, we’ll try this. We’ll try that. Do some crazy wisdom surgical. We’ll do that. Nope, I’m I’m defensive now a lot more and working, you know, probably 80 percent of what I should be working at. So I’ve just started doing implants. Now I’m making sure I’m getting the right mentors in something very slow. You know, single implants, blah blah blah. I’m not going crazy. I’m gonna take my time. You know, if I don’t know something, I can’t stand it. I’ll ask again. I’ll ask again, make sure I know

[00:27:40] It because I know

[00:27:41] My limitations. And that’s not to say it. So yeah, yeah, I’m a piece of myself now. It’s good.

[00:27:46] I’m a big step going into implants. Are you that it is vertically minded kind of dentist? Yeah, I mean,

[00:27:54] The thing is, I always enjoy certain surgical aspects. I was always taking teeth, doing surgical, raising pull ups, bone removal. But somehow there was a mental block of doing implants is high risk demanding patients blah blah blah. Again, it put me off. I was, Oh, I shouldn’t do it, but I’ve got to a stage now where, you know, forty four, I’m thinking looking at it. Just get on with it. Just do some simple implants. Even if you’re just doing singles and just doing a couple of areas, they need to get into it. So, you know, I did the PG Cert and again I did the Tipton Training PG Cert. Oh, the Tipton training, which is quite good. So I did that. And then actually, interestingly, exactly with Facebook again, you come across a lot of nonsense on Facebook, but also you come across some real gems, some real people that reach out. Yeah, and a guy called Amit Patel, Specialist Periodontist and Birmingham. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He reached out just on social media through my watch group and all these other things to do. And it’s a message and I say, Yeah, you know, I made him doing this and that, and we’ve been talking for two years and he said, Look, I’m going to help you with your implants.

[00:28:54] And I was like, OK, really? And he’s like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, don’t worry, I’m going to help you. I’m going to come up and all this. And I was like, OK, I was a bit dubious and we got chatting a lot more messaging, and it seemed like a really nice guy. So funnily enough, two weeks ago, I went down to meet him for the first time. It’s practise nice, you know, lovely guy. Lovely making these connexions and I made so many of the connexions through Facebook. I met people in real life and for me, he’s been a positive, to be honest. It’s been. It’s been great. Yeah, so he’s coming up to my practise December 3rd and 4th and we’re replacing about sort of ten 15 implants of the two days, which can be fantastic. So looking forward to that. What more can I say? Yeah, I’m sort of, you know, pushing myself. I should have got involved in the implant industry a lot earlier with the experience I’ve had in surgical dentistry. But however, it’s still happening. I’m doing it now, so it’s fine. Everyone’s journey is their journey, right?

[00:29:44] Of course. And so tell me from the moment you decide. I’ve never done it right. The moment you decide, I want to do some implants to the moment you place your first without someone looking over your shoulder. How long? What is that timeframe or how old is it for you? Well, a few.

[00:30:02] I haven’t placed any on my own without someone looking over my shoulder yet. I’m moving to that. I’m going to that. Yeah.

[00:30:08] How many? How many are you going to do with someone looking over your shoulder before you do your first one?

[00:30:12] I’m going to do with our mate. I’m going to do about 10 to 12 implants. Mm hmm. And then I’ve got a very.

[00:30:19] Did you do any on any patients on Tipton?

[00:30:21] Yeah, I did about eight implants on the Tipton course. I placed about eight implants and then COVID struck.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:28] And then I went back to my kind of registered negative way of thinking, Yeah, when the clinics open back up, I thought, Oh, you know what? I’ve lost touch with this. I’ll just finish off those patients that I had in. I just restored them. I won’t place any more implants. I became quite negative for a while. Yeah. Ahmed said, look, get a move on, let’s get going with this, yeah. You’ve done the calls, you’ve placed implants. It’s easy. Let’s do it. So he’s got me really fired up again. So so I’ve got all these patients

[00:30:56] Booked and we’re going to do it.

[00:30:58] Yeah. I mean, from your experience, obviously, you know where you’re at at the moment. What’s one thing about implant ology that you’d like people who are not in it to know, like one thing that you now know that you didn’t know before something surprising, something, whatever.

[00:31:12] I would say it is. There’s quite a few elements to it, which I thought it was pretty much you drilling putting an implant

[00:31:20] Into a Jawbone. As long as

[00:31:21] You’re not hitting anything, you fine. It was the software learning a software to plan. The implants took some time for me to understand because again, I’m a slow learner. I don’t get it very well. So learning this software, learning the implants and then looking at the implants in a three dimensional view on different scans was something new to me, and I was like, Wow, this is not really dentistry. This is different to what I know. Yeah, you know, you’re looking at a sagittal plane. You’re looking at looking at sideways, looking at this, looking at that and and then you’re thinking, Do I need to graph this or not? You’re looking a lot of things at the same time and then you have to sort of put all that clinically onto a page into a patient. And I kind of had a little bit of a mind blog doing all that. And that was my mental mind block stopping me from going ahead with implants for a long time. So even after even after placing the calls in January and February 2020 and after lockdown, I sit in it all. I’ll just get somebody in to do with them because I had somebody prior in the practise placing them.

[00:32:17] And it’s so much easier just getting them to do it or you just take a cut. Yeah. The problem came when the people leave those implants and eventually leave or whatever they do, they go on to do their own thing and you’re stuck with these implant patients. And now we’ve got vicarious liability as well. I don’t know what I’m doing. And inevitably, issues do arise. I don’t know what I’m doing with implants, and they come in and say, Oh, this, something’s loose here. The screw is loose or whatever. I’m thinking we don’t know what to do. Go back to the dentist and they’re saying, Well, I paid your practise. Can you sort it out? So I thought to myself, at least I need to know how to restore implants. I need to know something about them. So hence, I enrolled in the course and sort of learnt about, there’s a lot to it. And I think it’s one of those cases again, where you know you walk before you don’t run, you do your single implants with lots

[00:33:00] Of bone, lots of space. You know, if there’s anything else

[00:33:03] Sure about after somebody get a good mentor on board, ask them so willing to help you. You know what I mean? Not someone who’s going to put you down as someone to help you and take you through it.

[00:33:11] I mean, I know nothing about it, but but I do know that the soft tissue side of it is really complicated.

[00:33:17] Another aspect? Absolutely, really complicated. Yeah. You can see you can see how many, right? I’ve seen some cases I thought, Yeah, let’s do go for this. And then suddenly it’s a thin bio type, higher lip line and you think,

[00:33:32] I need I

[00:33:32] Need someone for this. And I mean, so it’s like you start learning more and more, I think, and you have very good patients. The first few patients you work on, make sure they are your best patients. They are the ones that will really, you know, worst case, you can just give the money back and say, Hey, it’s sorry about that. Let’s get it done. You don’t. You don’t want to have difficult patients. I mean, it’s like that with anything. But, you know, it’s a funny thing because in restorative dentistry, et cetera, we don’t really have the mentoring as much. But with implant dentistry, it’s very much mentor based with restorative. You just expected to get on with it. But I think the implant industry, there’s so many components to it, the soft tissues that it’s it’s it’s quite different. And again, some people might hear this podcast later and just be laughing, saying, Ted, you just you just be thick.

[00:34:14] But there’s a lot of people out

[00:34:16] There like me. There’s a reason. There’s a reason why a lot of people do implant courses and don’t go on to place implants. There’s a there’s a reason why because the cost, the start-up costs are expensive. You get a mentor on board. They’re expensive. You need to get the patients and it could all be very off-putting. And end of the day, there’s no the general dentistry out there that can get you the same kind of money, to be fair. So, you know, this is the reason you could have a specific reason why you want to do implants.

[00:34:42] Yeah, I mean, it’s a massive like a barrier, isn’t it? A lot of people never crossed that barrier.

[00:34:49] That’s something. Yeah.

[00:34:50] But I’m impressed that you’ve done it and you’ve and you’ve pushed through, you know, for instance, I would I would never, ever look at implants. I mean, I was just never that. That didn’t inspire.

[00:35:02] Yeah, no.

[00:35:04] It’s one of those things. It was it was never me. But end of the day, you know, I’m taking teeth out left, right and centre, my my Folmer PhDs or vets who I taught them surgical dentistry to the surgical zone and now doing implants on their own and doing much better than me. And I’m thinking, I’m going. I was teaching you guys how to dress flaps, divide routes, you know, doing all this and I’m now scared of implants. What’s going on, Ted? You know, get a grip. You can do

[00:35:27] This, you know?

[00:35:29] So it was almost I meet Ahmed Patel. We fail. I give him a shout out. He’s giving me a real kick of the backside to get on with it. I’ll be honest.

[00:35:37] So yeah.

[00:35:39] Well, Ted, you’ve now had three practises. You’ve had a bunch of staff. I noticed your. The wife is involved in the current one. Is that right? Yeah. Running a practise has a whole lot of, you know, sort of issues around hiring and firing staff, keeping keeping people happy working.

[00:35:58] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:00] You know, give us a couple of nuggets of things you’ve learnt. Maybe someone’s thinking of going into buying their first practise now. And and yeah, it’s something that you could someone could learn from a little hack. Yeah.

[00:36:14] Is a quite a few. I’ll tell you one thing is you take over an existing team and you try and as as a young, as a new or young practise owner, you try and impress them to keep them happy. Yeah, they’re looking at you. And even if you’re treating them better than the last guy, they’re looking at you with suspicion. Yeah. On the always ends up, it’s the same story over and over again. That team will end up leaving major. Not all of them, but the majority will end up leaving. And you will have to recruit your own team that are aligned, that are aligned with your values and your ethos and the way you do things.

[00:36:52] How interesting. So you say you’re saying if I if I, if I’m a young associate and I buy a practise with 12 people, it’s likely as the years go on, the incumbent ones will filter out. And new people that are more like your way of thinking will start to come in

[00:37:08] That there will be sabotage in that team that will make life very difficult for you. Yeah, cause problems were not exist to create, create problems and you’ll be trying to initially, as a young practitioner, you’ll be trying to think, Oh, there is a problem, I need to put a fire out here. I’ll put a fire out here. As you go by, you realise that actually there’s nothing going on. It’s actually these people are just trying to cause problems and not the right people. Now this applies equally to. If you take on new members, staff and this member of staff is causing problems, say the day you’re off on holiday or the afternoon you’re off, everything is wrong with the practise. A member of staff, for example, a new member of staff article and the one half day I was off. Yeah, the one half day the one, Wednesday I was off. Everything will be wrong with the practise. I would get reams of text messages in capital letters. This is not right. This is not right. This is not right. And walk in the next day and ask my existing staff what was going on and say everything was fine. That’s really the goal. Yeah, yeah. She just had a bit of a bit of a wobble. You know, she, he or she just had a bit of a wobble. I’d be like, OK. And then again, the next day, I’ll be off again. Something else again. Then I realise it’s not actually what she’s talking about.

[00:38:19] She’s just creating an issue because you have this two year thing now where you can get rid of people within two years, as long as you don’t discriminate against the protected characteristics which are sex, race, religion, blah blah, blah gender. You can just say sorry. See you later. You know you suitable. So that’s that’s the new members coming in yet. With with with, like you said, going back to what you’re saying about taking over a practise with staff. Yeah, inevitably they will leave and it always happens. I hear it time and time again on Facebook. They will cause problems. They will leave, they’ll kick up a full or whatever because they don’t like the new owner. They don’t like change. People don’t like change. Yeah. Yeah. So just as patients leave, stuff will leave and you will have to recruit your own team and get them on board. And the one thing I do on my team is you’ve got to find out what what motivates each person. Yeah, yeah. But some people, it’s money. It’s overtime. They like a bit of overtime. Yeah, a bit of overtime. Some people like a bit of a night owl, the like a night owl to meal a day. So foster that culture, foster bit of everything in your team, you know, try and try and sort of get everything that people like, try and touch upon a little bit of everything. That’s what I try and do. I try to keep happy, so stand back from it because working with the same people every day can get quite sickening and start to you start to despise the people you work with.

[00:39:34] It’s part of a burnout process. You go in every day to the same small surgery and you see the same people. But look at look at the overall good. Are they working hard? Are they coming on time? Are they working? Are they are they? Are they doing? Are they working for the practise? You know, trying to do what’s best for the practise? If you see these things you know in your staff, give them a little bit of leeway. Yeah. If if they if they’re all sick one day, just off sick, I’ve got a nurse who’s in every single day she’s in. She is in every single day, no matter what. She’s the one I rely on. She’s a pair of hands. She’s in every single day. If she’s off sick one day, I’m not going to because I don’t pay sick days. I paid her. I’m not. I’m not going to not pay her. I paid her, you know, it’s not a big deal. You know, she had one day she had to. She had a hospital of Payman. She works five days a week. She had to come in late, you know, just pay it. It doesn’t matter. You know, it’s two hours. Don’t penny pinch, you know, almost two hours. Look at the big picture.

[00:40:26] Yeah, I like I like that. But then, you know, someone else will say, if you do, if you do that for that person, you have to do that for the other person who’s not pulling their weight in the same way. Otherwise, it’s going to be seen as unfair. You know, like these things happen as teams grow, isn’t it?

[00:40:41] There are. I mean, this is purposeful. I’ve got a small team. This is this is this is the reasonable application. Yeah, yeah. This is why I’m a very small team person. It’s like a family to me now. This will not resonate with a lot of people because all of our bigger, better growing and all this, you know, for me, when I see these 20 staff, I just see problems, you know, when I see these dentistry awards and I’m not looking at dentistry was, I think they’re fantastic. I just don’t go to them. I think they’re fantastic. I think they’re great. But I see these 20, you know, big, massive teams. I just think I just see problems everywhere. Personally, for me, that’s what I see. Again, it’s a negative attitude, you know, maybe and maybe a practise on who’s got more stuff can maybe fill me in. Maybe, you know, give me some insights on how to deal with it. But for me, it’s a small team. We all work together. There’s there’s no there’s no fallouts we saw to issues out in house.

[00:41:27] It goes back to self-awareness, isn’t it? It goes back to that self-awareness.

[00:41:33] Yeah, yeah. I know you like anyone who’s a bad apples. I like it.

[00:41:36] Small. Keep it small.

[00:41:37] Anyone who’s a bad apple, I get rid of them. I hire an attitude, not competence.

[00:41:41] Yeah. Are you good at firing people? I don’t mean the act of firing because the act of firing no one’s good at. It’s it’s a nightmare, right? But I’m saying, are you good at saying this person’s wrong and we don’t need her anymore and getting that person out quickly? You get it done.

[00:41:56] Yes. Yes, I was rubbish at it, but I had to learn to be good at it very quickly because I was. I once kept a person on thinking she will change and every meeting should be, yep, yep, edge. I’m going to change. I’m going to do better. I’m going to do that for you. She’d have a written warning and then she would work well until the really warning lapsed and then go back to her old ways again. Yeah, sorry. Her verbal warning. She’s got a verbal warning. She knew exactly the time scales work really well and then go back to her old self again. And then the the verbal warning starts again, and she made sure she went over the two year period, and it’s very difficult to get rid of it. You know, I won’t say what a date, I won’t say what I did in the end, but that’s for another time, but I wouldn’t say how we managed to.

[00:42:43] Somebody tells me you took care of business.

[00:42:45] I took care of business in a way that is not a conventional conventional, but is a way that I will tell people quietly, there is a way and you have to have everybody else on board and there is a way. But I can’t say that on a podcast. There is a way. There is a way, and it’s risky. It’s risky, but

[00:43:06] There is a way. The funny thing is, but everyone listening to this is now thinking of all sorts of things which are much more crazy than what actually happened.

[00:43:14] It’s not. It’s using a legal process. Oh. But but it’s it’s it’s a bit convoluted and it’s very risky. If it goes wrong, but it’s not as risky as doing a bad firing. That’s the difference.

[00:43:28] Yeah, I’ve done it before, but I’ve made excuses for for the member of staff. I’ve had them linger for much longer than they should. I’m trying to get Sanjay my partner to to have a look at an idea of we. If we if we want to fire someone, we’ve got it now in our business. We’ve got a one month notice period. Yeah, yeah. And I’m telling Sanjay turned that into a we’ll pay you three months of salary. Yeah, just go. Yeah. Because if you do that first, it makes it easier to say it and fire people, right? Because you’re giving them three months, right? And they’re not going to not be able to feed their kids and all that. But secondly, most of the time, whenever we’ve wanted to fire someone, we’ve procrastinated for at least three months before doing it. So we’ve paid that money anyway. Yeah. For for an ineffective person. Yeah, yeah. And he he does not want to do that. I get it too, by the way. I get it too. Yeah.

[00:44:24] Yeah, no, no. It’s it’s very difficult.

[00:44:27] The problem is

[00:44:28] Is, you know, once you’ve got a good team, yeah, you’ve got a good team and you get this bad apple in there. And again, it’s usual you’ll get the red flags. As usual, there’ll be issues constantly cropping up when there weren’t before the issues. And sometimes these people will make out that they’ve got higher standards than everybody else, you know, Oh, this isn’t clean and this is not right. You need to be doing this, need to be doing that, creating little little things here and there, and disharmony mosques are whispering and you’ll see the red flags and you just cry. Rather than trying to put out each little fire here and there, you realise at the end this person just needs to go. Yeah, because there are sabotage. That’s just their personality. That’s the way they are. And you need to get rid of them. And I say this, a lot of people, I’d say, just get rid of the message me or people message me on Facebook Messenger and saying, I’ve got this member. She’s doing this, she’s doing that. And I say, how long you had to say three months to just get rid. So, oh, but then I go to the disciplinary. I see. No, you don’t need to go through the disciplinary. Just been there three months as long as you don’t, as long as you don’t discriminate against especially, you know, against the protected characteristics you’ll find. Just get

[00:45:32] Rid. It sounds like you’ve got that side fixed. What about the other side? If someone’s doing really well, do you? How do you manage in a Dental practise environment to provide them fulfilment? You know, like job satisfaction, people. What I found very difficult in dentistry, not that I spent much time in practise, but at the time the idea that someone can progress in their career is quite hard in dentistry and especially in this very practise, right?

[00:45:57] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it’s very it is very, very difficult. It’s a tough answer. This one in my in a way, in my practise. And I shouldn’t say this, I suppose, in the small practise that I’ve had, if I had somebody too ambitious, they would probably believe, yeah, if that makes sense because there wasn’t much of a great career progression. So I’ve just got my two nurses on the implant training course to be Dental, you know, implant nurses. Yeah, which has helped them. But I can’t give them the whole wow factor of the radiographs putting fluoride varnish on doing this, doing that, we’re too small, you know, we can’t afford it. So in a way, you kind of want people who are sort of happy to come in, enjoy repetitive work, know where they’re getting each month to live nearby. They’re comfortable. You need, you need to give that kind of security. Of course, you know, do all the bonuses and all that, that’s all fine. So part of it, but when it comes to career progression, it is very difficult and don’t have an answer for that necessarily.

[00:46:52] Tell me about the bonus structure.

[00:46:54] I don’t have a structure. I don’t have a structure. I give a great Christmas bonus. I will. I’ll give a great Christmas bonus. I will give bonuses as I go along if someone’s doing well. I give bonuses for recruiting implant patients. You know, they’ll get five pounds to implant patient. I’m trying to give them something. I’m trying to work on something I’ve been quite model as well. But for my receptionists who

[00:47:17] Who keep those

[00:47:18] Dental patients on the plan by ringing them up regularly and saying, How are you doing anything we can do for you? Blah blah blah. I’m always giving them their own list of implant patients. I said, These yours, you have to manage these, make sure they’re on the system paying every month. I’m trying to remunerate them something for each having each patient on, rather than just forgetting a new patient on. I’m trying to give them. I’m trying to work out a system of a monetary system of somehow, you know, giving them something for keeping that list of patients going active, saying it’s your responsibility as well as well as mine. Keeping them on so they don’t fall off. They don’t fall off a list and say, Oh, I’ve not heard from that practise for a while, I’ll just cancel my membership. You know, what can you do extra?

[00:47:59] My feeling talking to them is there isn’t enough performance related incentive in Dental practises. There is. There is a reason there is a but but from from from someone who does a lot of it in our business. One thing I’ve noticed is that even when, like you’re saying, you’re trying to come up with something for your receptionist, right, even when you come up with something that you think is perfect. Yeah, there’s always you’ve got to look out for. There’s always going to be an unwanted side effect of that of that scheme. Yeah. Like whatever it is, I can’t tell you how it can end up in your practise, but you know, they’ll sign up these patients who are not big spenders or whatever. Well, we found we found when we were doing monthly targets for sales, we were comparing to the same month the year before to January. So what ended up happening was they would just switch and, you know, they would take their foot off the pedal in February. Next February, put their foot on the pedal, you know, and it’s not their fault. You can’t you can’t blame them for it because you set up the system. There it is.

[00:49:02] Yes, there it is. That’s right.

[00:49:04] And and then you go and change the system and then you get another unwanted side of it. But having said all of that, I do think there’s not enough of it in dentistry, you know, because there’s not because there’s not career progression in the normal way that people would expect it in careers in a lot of dental practises. I think at least if the practise is doing well, the staff should do better. You know, if the banks are doing better, the staff should do better, more than happens at the.

[00:49:30] Yes, I agree. I think I think you’re absolutely right. I think the same has got this really well. I haven’t. I’m a little really poor of this because I’m I’m I don’t like to share the figures with my staff why I don’t think my staff. Again, it’s confidential. I don’t think that they’re ready for it. I think they can digest the figures and understand the profit or loss because I don’t want them thinking, Ooh, teachers make it take X amount or this is what we make.

[00:50:00] You don’t need to discuss profit and loss, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It should be, I think, dervish be like generators.

[00:50:08] Yeah, turnover is a skill centre skills ghost. I’ve talked about why profit is why we need to be getting money ahead. I’ve talked about why we need to have a profit so I can invest back in the practise, which is what I have to do. I said if we’re only looking backwards, then I’ll be saving on, Oh, we can’t buy fax paper this month or we can’t buy, you know, we can’t buy printer ink this month. I said, that’s the negative backward attitude. I need to be looking at why we can buy this, why we can hire more staff, why we can do this, invest in the practise. We can have a better, better Christmas. Do we can do a better events. We can, you know, the bigger,

[00:50:36] Well, go thing that you should pay attention to. This is that I’m not saying open up all the numbers because as a business owner, that doesn’t make massive sense, right? But but in general, I’d say in general, your nurse or receptionist who doesn’t know how much money you earn? Yeah, thinks generally you’re earning a lot more than you’re earning. Would you say to that? I don’t know, really, you know what, I don’t know.

[00:51:04] I I try, I see. I’m very much low key with it, with him, with my staff, you know? Yeah, I’m very low key and we’re not a high turnover practise. Anyway, I never have been. I’m not that kind of dentist, so we’re very much low key. You know, I drive a 10 year old car and this and that, and I like watches, but that’s fine. Okay, it’s one of those things, but I’m lucky I eat in the same places they eat, go to the same places they go to. So I’m hoping they don’t think I’m sort of, you know, making a ton of money. But I hope there is. It’s it’s it’s hard to explain. I don’t want them thinking I’m ripping off patients and have a negative thing because, you know, I want them to sort of think that I’m giving your patients a fair deal, that I’m worth my weight.

[00:51:45] I get it, but I get it. Listen, what you’re saying is the norm. Yeah, but I’m saying that.

[00:51:51] Yes. Yes. No. You’re absolutely right. I want to. I would like to have that business manager who says, Ted, you know, we’ve we’ve only made we’ve only we’re really turning over 300k this year when we only get to 400 by next year. I want to get you to five hundred and I want to make sure we’re doing this as this. Yes, I like that kind of

[00:52:07] Person, but

[00:52:09] I can’t pay that kind of person who has those qualifications to understand that. So actually, my wife understands that. So the other so it’s a small practise. So I’m just saying I’ve got a solution to everything and I appreciate your advice as well.

[00:52:20] And oh, dentists have

[00:52:22] Messaged me and giving me advice on how to sort this issue out and things, and I’m constantly learning. This whole thing about me is being a slow learner and having my experience. I’m constantly learning from other people, people younger than me who set up, you know, got five or six practises and said, Ted, you think you look like a shopkeeper?

[00:52:36] Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:37] I’m thinking like a corner shop guy. You know, just standing, standing there, counting my pennies. Think of the bigger picture. Start bonus. Start giving these people bonuses. Start incentivising them. Save yourselves. But then you’ve got the staff who are not financially motivated. That’s the problem. So I mentioned this thing about this five pound butt implant patient, and one of the receptionists said, I’m not interested one bit in that. She’s a great, she’s a great receptionist. She’s fantastic, but she’s not interested in any bonuses to whatsoever. She wants to do a work, get paid and go home. That’s it.

[00:53:04] So there are people like that. There are people, you know,

[00:53:07] And they’re and they are what I classed as a pair of hands. You need them. They’re very reliable, very reliable. They’re in every day on time. They like coming to work as close to work, and they’re a pair of hands and you need a pair of hands as well. Yeah, yeah. And you need more ambitious people. But then ambitious people can leave because they outgrow your practise. That’s the problem,

[00:53:28] Because let’s get to this PDA thing that you’ve put yourself up for.

[00:53:32] Yeah, the PDA. Yes.

[00:53:34] And I take my hat off to you. I do. Yeah, anyone who puts himself up for anything like this, you know, I’m not yet cynical enough to think that, you know, it’s a power trip or whatever. No, no. In the real world, I think that, but not in Dental politics, it’s such an unsexy thing to go into. But I always give the benefit of the doubt to the person doing it. Why don’t you just just tell us, explain what is the committee? What does it do? Why are you thinking about?

[00:54:01] Well, I’m actually I’m actually fairly inexperienced. So for me, I’ll give you a bit of my story in the background is I’ve been on Bradford LDC Local Dental committee. Yeah, I’m now in Wakefield Local Dental Committee. Now, obviously, you know me on social media. We’ll all have a rant. Every now and again. There’ll be this big thing. Everybody sort of pulls the big thing. We’re going to do this, we’re going to do this, and let’s set up this union. Let’s do this. And half of them don’t go anywhere.

[00:54:27] Yeah. And then I thought, Well,

[00:54:29] Where does where does the real work happen? Who’s really negotiating with the government NHS and who? It’s a it’s a GDP arm of the BDA. Yeah, the General Dental Practise Committee. This is where the action happens. And I thought, You know what? I need to put myself up because I’m kind of shy or reticent guy and I’m pretty much like, always want somebody else to do it. You, if somebody else does it and the outcome is not in my favour, then I’m, as you know, I should be the one that should be going out there. Yeah, if I want to change things, you’ve got to put yourself out there, you know, go outside your comfort zone. So, you know, there’s a lot at the moment and at the moment, a lot of older, experienced dentists on these committees and they come in to the end of their tenure and stepping down. So I think we need some fresh blood in there to take take things forward. So I would say just just to anyone who wants to make a difference at the very minimum, you know, you have a rant on Facebook, everybody has a rant on Facebook, but go to your local Dental committee meetings. Anybody is welcome to them. It’s not daunting. It’s not. It’s not a it’s not a members, only club or some boys club go along. They sit there, see what’s talked about. Yeah, it’s a bit dull. It’s in the evening, but this is where the action happens. You’ll find out what’s going on. So I’ve always been interested in finding what’s going on. Yeah, there are seven pm on an evening, go along to them, sit around, meet at the dentist in your area network. So I’ve been doing that for years, but I’ve always been at a very low level. I’ve always been ranting on social media and just blah blah blah and giving advice and now involved the past scheme, the Practitioner Advice Service Scheme.

[00:55:55] So, so you know, trying to make a difference. Where do you? Nhs dentistry going

[00:56:01] Wait was initially dentistry going interesting question, actually, it’s well, what’s happening right now right now and it’s just dentistry is in freefall. There is no NHS access anywhere

[00:56:14] For most

[00:56:14] Practises is struggling to even hit the 65 percent target we’ve been given and morale of staff is at the lowest point ever. The dentists, I think that was sitting on the fence previously about whether to go private and whether that’s a full private practise conversion or a principle only conversion, I think are now making them move to private practise. I think the trust or relief we all had last year during the start of the pandemic, when the NHS announced full support to providers, has now mostly evaporated. It is a difficult period right now, but I think things will stabilise. I think things will stabilise in NHS. And the one thing I found personally, it’s my personal opinion. This is that whenever, whenever the government have been embarrassed by NHS dentistry as they are now and going back to sort of early 2000s when you had the oldest photographs of the queues outside practises people waiting outside the whole of Lincolnshire, massive queues, outside practises and all that kind of thing. A bit of money was pumped in and access was improved. I’ll be in the short term. Access was improved, so where it’s heading right now don’t really know. I think they’re talking about a call service coming in. But does a call service mean core funding? That’s the issue because the government, the NHS right now thinks this funding is providing a fully comprehensive service. When we all know it isn’t, it’s only providing it can probably only service 50 percent of the population at best. So will the NHS have to accept mixed practise? And finally, will they have to let us know what is and is not available on the NHS rather than than this current situation of where we’re meant to provide whatever is clinically necessary, which leaves us dentists in a trap, really, you know, just waiting to be tripped up. So, yeah, I think things will stabilise.

[00:57:58] But OK, but in the role, let’s say you get elected in the role, you’re going to be actually one of the people having these discussions with government, right?

[00:58:06] Is that is that right? Well, I be feeding in. It will be the chair of the GPC. It’ll usually be the chair and vice chair of the GPC who might have these direct negotiations. We’ll certainly be feeding in much more, so I’ll be a much more higher level if I get on. I built a feeding and feeding the thoughts of associates and other dentists and sort of what’s happening on the ground really and will to effect change. So I’m hoping I can, you know, I can make some difference. Collectively, the GDP scheme can make some difference. I mean, the wheels that there’s a lot, this is the thing that a lot of people don’t understand is one change very quickly. There’s the wheels of motion, a very slow with the government. You know, there’s a lot happening in industry, but the way the government act and they come back is very, very slow. So you get you get a little bit of change now and again here and there, and that takes a lot of time so people don’t fully appreciate. But the work the GPC did in securing the funding during the lockdown, pernicious practises. People don’t really appreciate how much work went into that. So it’s things like this that are often ignored.

[00:59:05] Yeah. A PDA gets a kind of a mixed bag of sort of rep, doesn’t it, from people? I mean, they

[00:59:12] They’ve got a very, very hard job. You can think about it. Payman Yeah. Bda represent. They’ve got to represent. Yeah. And dentistry is so fragmented. We’ve got purely private practises. We’ve got mixed practises. Yeah, we’ve got pure NHS practises and then we’ve got associates in the middle of all this who are having their own hard time of it all. So they’ve got to represent three different types of practise owners.

[00:59:38] But I think a lot of people have thought that, you know, they’ve been really representing one of those three more than anyone else.

[00:59:46] Possibly, possibly, possibly because there’s just more of those to represent.

[00:59:50] Well, there’s more to it than anything else, right? If you want to

[00:59:53] The more associates as well as those the

[00:59:56] Problems?

[00:59:57] No, no. Yeah, I think the problem is. I mean, I’m not experienced enough to answer this. And guys, Eddie Crouch probably are. They’re the top level. The problem is, I think, is the way the contracts of the NHS are done with the provider. I think that legality is that the divide, a contract subcontracts to the associates. That’s right. So I think that is the key element, which is the GDS contract, which I think is hard to bypass. So any any sort of Payman disputes than that really will have to go legally. That’s the problem you’ve got.

[01:00:32] I think that’s been this.

[01:00:32] I think that’s been the tricky part for for the media to resolve the country’s resolve disputes themselves directly without involving legal teams

[01:00:40] And who can vote. Is it like Luke or you can only people local to you?

[01:00:45] I think I think it’s only my local. I think at this particular election, it’s so the local guys that can vote in West Yorkshire.

[01:00:51] Yeah, yeah,

[01:00:53] I try to canvass everyone. I think I’ve realised lately in the local people I can vote. But yeah, I tried. I think I tried to get on JTBC four years ago when I was a relatively unknown. I wasn’t even on the LDC, so I didn’t get on. And I’ve got tough competition to Wakefield. And to be fair, the competition is excellent. Whoever whoever gets on to West Yorkshire, you know, Joe Henderson or somebody else, someone like that is absolutely brilliant. So I’ve got no issues. I really hope I get voted on. But if I don’t, then I know it’s in safe hands anyway.

[01:01:19] That’s nice to hear that. It’s nice to hear that. Yeah, you. I mean, you would come back to this self-awareness question what makes you be the kind of cat who wants to put yourself up for election? I mean, it’s like life, I would never, ever try that.

[01:01:38] Yeah, I think I represent a fair few general Dental practitioners who are a little bit negative, a little bit reticent, a bit shy to get out there. Yeah, possibly slow learners as well. We’re not all high flyers, we’re not all Instagram stars. And they want change. They don’t have to go about it. They feel a bit, you know, when you go to the local Dental committee meetings and you’ve got three or four senior dentists on there who are already on GSPC C or Dental practise advisors for the NHS. You feel a bit, you feel a bit sort of, you know, it’s quite sort of intimidating. And this was me earlier on, and like I said, I think they just need some fresh blood and I think people like John Milne, certainly it was now the national secrecy at Dental advisories, as always, encouraged me to get involved, which, you know, I don’t think you need to be clever. You need to be a you need to be a high flyer. And I never was. I was like, I said, to slow learner self awareness and all that. And I think you just put yourself out there and have a go at it. I can’t even I mean, public speaking, this makes me anxious talking to you.

[01:02:36] Like this is like public speaking. It makes me nervous. I’m awful at public speaking. You know, I did that. I’ve got a stammer. I had a stutter. I had speech therapy as a young kid, you know, for about two years, I had speech therapy. I sang my old name. The word ts. Very difficult to say. Tej doesn’t always come out, so I can’t speak. I can’t stand up and speak. So, you know, but these are all things that other people have had. And another thing, another point which which was very, very interesting to me. It was going back to my events in 2011 when I was involved with the PCC hearing and all that. The Path Advisor at the time, the Practitioner Advice Support Service Advisor at the time, told me 20 years prior he had a performance issue and he said Everyone’s got a story. She said, Don’t worry about it. Everyone has a story. And I was like, Oh, wow, you’re the LDC chair and adviser, and you had a performance issue 20 years prior. And then the workforce Deanery adviser told me about GDC referral he had, which was thrown out. But somebody referred to the GDC and I said, Oh, wow, OK, so these things happen,

[01:03:41] You know, I mean, some really, really good people have had these

[01:03:44] Problems. So I thought I thought maybe going in was

[01:03:47] That if you are crap,

[01:03:49] You got these issues. If you’re crap, you into confident the high flyers are just fly through the career and they don’t get any issues. It’s not true. Everyone’s had a story. Every sort of complaint, everyone’s been rattled. Everyone’s been rattled in some way or another. So they just don’t say it doesn’t get spoken about enough. So I’m happy to say it. And other people now come out with their things and I’m happy and you know, it’s fine. You’ve had issues. You learn from them. You, you move on from them. And like we say, it’s not. It’s not how many times you fall down, it’s how you get up, right? You’ve got to get back up and get on with it. You know, so

[01:04:20] A couple of other things I want to talk to you about. Yeah, the watch thing. Oh yeah. So number one, I don’t get it right. I don’t get watches. No, no, no. You know, you don’t have to. You don’t have to know. My friends have tried. No.

[01:04:35] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:04:36] But tell me what it is about, which is for you. I mean, you’ve got this watch Dental group. Is it the collection side of it? Like, what is it?

[01:04:45] It’s it’s the number of things for me. Ok, I’ve been into watches since I was five years old. My dad used to collect Seiko watches. He had about five or six. He was a South Indian doctor. He was never going to spend big money on big watches, conservative guy, you know, but fo four or five Seiko watches and every day I’d see him and he’d have he’d get his watch on. He’d rattle his wrist and it would be part of his day getting ready. So I was I’ve been watching this five years old. I had the little Transformers Watch and the Casio game watches. So now I mean, you know, since I’ve sort of qualified since I been able to buy some nice

[01:05:19] Watches, it’s the mechanics.

[01:05:21] It’s it’s having this thing ticking on your wrist made from cogs and gears. Yeah, that just is ticking away all the time. A glance to the wrist and it’s the only jewellery a man can really wear, you know? I mean, it’s something you wear.

[01:05:33] The reason I hate it, right? Because, yeah, yeah, that’s really.

[01:05:37] Yeah, yeah, it’s fine. I love a watch. I mean, I like the watch. I get up every day, but look at the look of the watch and I just think, yeah, that is a nice watch.

[01:05:43] So I was really keen to ask you this question. Yeah, I can see you love your watches.

[01:05:49] Absolutely. Yeah.

[01:05:50] But do you know about NFD watches?

[01:05:53] Nft watches. Yeah.

[01:05:57] Tornado watches, no watches, no so no Rolex, Rolex. Have have just come out with something that they reckon they’ll be selling more virtual watches, more money in virtual watches than actual watches in five years time.

[01:06:14] Ok, so this is where I’m a really thick guy. Tell me what a virtual watch is,

[01:06:18] Solanki we’re doing this over Zoom or whatever. You know, this platform that we’re doing it on, right? Yeah, it’s called Riverside, but this is the platform we’re doing. Pretty soon, we’re all going to be wearing glasses. You know, virtual reality meetings will be like that. When we go to the meeting, it’s going to be in a really, let’s face it, really cool room because it’s going to be it’s a graphic, right? You’re going to just the metaverse.

[01:06:39] Is this the metaverse thing?

[01:06:40] Yeah, you’re going to be sitting there. Ted is going to be sitting there. I’m going to be sitting here. When I see you, I’m going to see a graphic of you.

[01:06:47] Yeah, right.

[01:06:49] That graphic can be wearing a Rolex. Yeah, right. Rolex are saying they’ll charge the same amount for the virtual watch as they do for the Watch Watch.

[01:07:00] Are you having me on here? Payman No,

[01:07:01] No. Because what is it do? It’s not a

[01:07:03] Watch. It’s a lot of watches.

[01:07:04] It doesn’t tell the time. It’s not about telling time.

[01:07:07] It is the other side chuckling to himself if he Tetris buying Tetris buying this. But this is true to just buy this nonsense. Literally. Is it really? Is it true?

[01:07:16] It’s true. What’s the Chanel bag? It’s not a bag, is it? It’s not a bag carry. A bag is a bag. Yeah, it’s it’s nothing to do with being a bag. It’s a status symbol. It’s design, it’s art. Whatever you want to call it, call it.

[01:07:28] Ok, so so OK. So the thing is, OK, the part of the watch thing is, is the feel winding and winding? The thing I’d say I’ve been I’ve been to watch, for example. Yeah, OK. You don’t you don’t know, but you don’t know much about watches yet. I mean, what the one thing for me, what I don’t like about the watch thing is when someone just shows it with a time only watch and I don’t mean to blast Rolex. I love Rolex. I think they’re a great brand, and I’ve always said this. I respect what they do. The brand just shows up with a brown watch that shows the time. And you’re a layperson. It’s Oh, you got a Rolex. Yeah. Two hands shows the time Oh, it’s a Rolex for me. I love. I like the complications. I’ll say, Well, you know what watches can do and the like? Yeah, the tell the time go. Yeah, but I’ve got to watch, for example, shows the day, day, month, full year moon phase and count leap year as well, so it never needs a date changing. It counts leap year automatically and we’ll flick through Leap Year, so it gets to January 31st because it’s February 1st, February

[01:08:24] 28th, goes to March the

[01:08:26] 1st blah blah blah. It’ll keep doing that. Yeah, yeah. Tells me the same year because it’s got the full year and at twenty twenty one it December 31st, 2022. The mechanics involved in that is what I like, and if I want to show somebody else, look, this is proper watchmaking.

[01:08:39] Yeah, that’s what it’s going.

[01:08:41] That gets that’s what gets me got the complication,

[01:08:44] Making it more complicated than it has to be.

[01:08:46] Yeah, yeah. I look the fact gears and cogs. So so it’s like it’s like the old Sinbad movies gold of Zimbabwe with the bird. Was it the bird or was it there? It was like the carpet. Plush, plush, the tightest clash of the Titans, the with the mechanical bird and the wind up things and all the cogs and gears. All that used to fascinate me as a kid and the watches I get, I get it. I can look at what’s your favourite watch brand?

[01:09:08] What’s your favourite watch brand?

[01:09:10] I would have to say this to probably IWC in Audemars Piguet.

[01:09:14] Yeah, so so that’s the thing. Do you do you like if you love that brand? Yeah. When we meet in the Metaverse, you might pay IWC money to have an IOC on your hand when we meet in the Metaverse.

[01:09:30] Why? Why can I have a reader? I see my hand instead for the same price. Did you? Why wouldn’t

[01:09:36] I? You can’t put how many people are going to see that.

[01:09:38] I see. I’m not bothered by who sees it.

[01:09:40] Yeah, yeah.

[01:09:41] Yeah, it’s sort of a status symbol. My my watch. I’ve never owned a Rolex. I’ve never owned a Rolex. Yeah, I’ve never owned a Rolex. My watch is a bizarre watches. I’ve got one that looks like a spaceship. I’ve seen that. Yeah, yeah, I see that on the hour. The hour jumps along mechanically like a typewriter. You know the old typewriters. It’s got to lever. The hour jumps along to the end and then flicks back to one. That’s the mechanics I like. Nobody else knows about it.

[01:10:08] Tell me, tell me. Tell me, tell me there’s something called something something in friends. Which brand is that something? Something in friends? It’s like a famous

[01:10:15] And B and F

[01:10:15] And B and some of the stuff they come out with. Exactly. So that stuff, even like even I who don’t like watches like them, it’s it’s

[01:10:25] It’s it’s it’s kind of steampunk.

[01:10:28] Yeah.

[01:10:28] Yeah, yeah. Twenty thousand leagues under the Sea, Jules Verne weird kind of stuff. Yeah, it’s yeah. Yeah, yeah, crazy money. Crazy money. But it’s a whole different world. It’s it’s interesting, but like for me, I’m not. I’m not into cars anymore. I used to be into cars and I’m not into cars at all anymore. I’ve just gone off them. I bought a Renault twisty, a little twisty.

[01:10:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:10:49] That is giving me the best bit of fun ever. I’m so happy with it and I’m so comfortable at my age and I twist it to ask for. Ten years ago, I just said no way. Obviously they’re dead in the car, because

[01:10:58] Does that manage all the ups and downs of Yorkshire or the hills?

[01:11:01] It gets me to work at eight mile commute and is perfect. I love it. The summer is great. 52 mile an hour seems like I’m going in about 90 mile an hour. It’s great. I love it. I just I just I looked ridiculous in it, but I actually love that car. I think it’s fantastic. So I’m done with the cars. I got twisty. I’m happy with it.

[01:11:18] And I did want to bring up the subject of your tea making, but I don’t want to embarrass you, but I don’t embarrass.

[01:11:23] You can’t. You can’t actually make this.

[01:11:26] I don’t embarrass you, mate, because you I believe I get, but

[01:11:30] I am completely wrong. I almost feel like apologising. But but I will still say that’s how I make my tea and I love my tea that way. And that’s what makes it so different.

[01:11:41] So you like your tea? You thought your tea week is that? Is that?

[01:11:44] No, no, no, no. This is the really got it wrong. It kind of went off

[01:11:46] Tangent I put.

[01:11:48] I put two tea bags in. Yeah, and I put and I put a little bit of milk in a little bit of milk, maybe about, you know, I can’t I can’t describe milk, but maybe about half a centimetre of tea in a milk offset to me, the milk

[01:12:01] To tea back

[01:12:02] With two tea and then the tea bags around

[01:12:04] The OK, that’s different. That’s different, right? And they.

[01:12:07] No, no. And then I put a load of water in top.

[01:12:10] You didn’t explain it.

[01:12:11] Yeah, I just put a little bit tea I always showed with Rosie was that with a bit of milk. But then that itself, I think it kind of wrote, really, I lost a lot of votes on that, so I probably won’t get I probably won’t get elected on GDP c now because this big thing, this guy’s weird, you know, but I think it’s just you, I guess.

[01:12:30] Yeah, so Prav is not here. But Prav final questions about whether that if you know them, but they kind of all sort of end of life sort of legacy type questions. You’re on your deathbed, you’ve got your nearest and dearest people around you. What three pieces of advice would you leave to them and to the world?

[01:12:53] That’s really interesting, actually. I would say three pieces of advice say, I don’t have these massive things because I’ve done everything I want to do. I’m really happy as I am. I would say three devices, if you really if you’ve got to go to someplace you want a holiday, you need to go to someplace, just do it because you never know what you’re going. Get the chance to do that. That’s a massive life advice. If you really like something and you want to buy it and it’s not going to break the bank, but you have to get it even on a credit card. Go get it because if you really love it, go get it. Life’s too short not to get it here. Yeah, just go get it. And the other thing is is is free time. That’s the one thing you forget to have. You think you’ll get all this free time later on in life. You never get the free time. You got to make the free time now. So forget this free time at 60. My dad passed away very, very suddenly on a phone call from a massive heart attack at the age of 53. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So no, yeah, no, no. This happened in 99 was a 30 Dental school, so I know what it’s like because he planned to go to Dallas to see his sister. He planned to do these things, trying to get himself in a mega what she wanted to get a Merck because he had all his Volvos. He had a few plans because at 53, you still have a few plants left here to get a bit of indigestion one day, and he’s on his phone to his friend, and he just collapsed and died.

[01:14:06] So I had to give him mouth to mouth did happen. Obviously, that was that. So that really is a turning point. I mean, I’m nine years younger than my father was now. That’s scary because he looked to me like an old man back then when I was 21. He seemed like an old man, but I’m nine years off and, you know, fifty three is not very old at all. No. So the one thing is a free time. I mean, my dad was used to work like crazy, working hard. So the one thing is, you know, keep your expenses down. Enjoy the free time, you know, because you never know when it might be taken away from you. I don’t mean that in a negative, nasty way. But no, no, that’s free. Free, free times. It’s free time is the main thing. So you get to a certain age when there’s only so much industry can do. But my my last bit of dentistry I’m doing now is employers. That’s it. And then I’m done. I’m not going to. I’m going to keep going on because it’s sad, but I’m not doing any more year long, two year long courses that I sort of refine what I’ve got now. The skills, keep it going. Work a four day week, and that’s it. I’m done.

[01:14:59] I’ve been asking a new new question dinner party. Three people that are alive. Who would you invite?

[01:15:07] Oh, you know, that’s a tough one. That’s a tough one. I’m never very, very good at these. Abraham Lincoln. I don’t know why, but I like Tammy Abraham Lincoln. I don’t know why. I don’t know why. I just think things, he said, sounded pretty cool. Wells, in the past, uh, Martin Luther King. Probably Mahatma Gandhi actually is well,

[01:15:29] Yeah, nice, nice.

[01:15:31] Yeah, I probably say them three. There there be cliched to an extent as well. But again, they are for a reason, cliched, you know, so there you go.

[01:15:40] You’ve come for serious, you know, political figures there, man.

[01:15:43] Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

[01:15:47] Well, it is. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you, but and

[01:15:51] Thank you for having a simpleton like me on because. No, no. Normally I see the stars on and I’m thinking, Oh, you know what? In fact, he invited me on. I appreciate it. So thank you for having me on.

[01:16:01] It’s been. It’s been a lovely conversation and you.

[01:16:04] It’s very nice. Thank you.

[01:16:05] As well as you’re pulling yourself up for election. You know you’re a general practise guy, proper general practise guy, right? And you’ve been through it with that story.

[01:16:15] And I’ve been through it. I’ve been through it. I still get the same stuff everybody else gets. I keep messaging people. They message me. I’m in touch with a lot of general Dental practitioners. We talk, we converse. It’s so much better now than it was when I had that all that issue years ago. There’s no communication. You’re on your own in practise. What dentistry is in a good place right now? In that sense, the communication between people is fantastic.

[01:16:37] I’m really, really, really happy that you shared the way you did, but you didn’t have to give.

[01:16:42] No, no. I told all the people about it.

[01:16:44] I said a lot of people about it. And you know, so many people will learn from from those stories that you share. If people want to vote, when is it? How is it? Is it by

[01:16:53] Starting on November twenty third to December 3rd? If you’re not a BDM member, you’ve got to request. I’ve got to request the ballot papers from them, so it’s a little bit of work involved. So unfortunately it is off putting. A lot of people probably won’t vote because of this reason. You got to request the ballot papers from them. But I would just say anyone, if you want to make some change, even if you don’t vote for me, don’t worry, the other guys are on in Berlin as well. They really are. Just get your vote on because that’s the only way change will happen. There is not much happening on Facebook. Just granting all day long on Facebook is not going to change things. It’s it’s getting out there and making make sure the right people who can do the change are voted on to the GDP. See, that’s how change will happen.

[01:17:32] What if you are a BDA member, how does it work?

[01:17:35] Well, you’ll get the ballot papers immediately. Oh, really, you get the ballot papers in an email, so it’ll be fine and you can vote.

[01:17:41] Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this. But.

[01:17:44] No, no, thank you for having me on, I really appreciate it, and it’s been it’s been a pleasure. Absolutely a pleasure being on and I hope some people are chuckling away. Some people might take something away from it. Yeah, it’s good. He’s been good. Thank you. Thanks again, Payman. Appreciate it.

[01:18:00] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry.

[01:18:11] Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:18:16] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] Yeah, how actually it came about, it was on a flight on a lads holiday, actually to Valencia, and we just had that sort of two and a half hour flight, whatever it was. And that’s when we had the main discussion. We thought, how can we reach the most people in a platform that obviously there’s great Facebook groups, there’s great Instagram pages and stuff, but there’s not much interaction through a page. We thought, how can we just keep it as kind of direct content? No bureaucracy, no other stuff, just content. And the way we figured out would be the best way to do that would be by email mailing list. So we thought if we make a mailing list and just put out content and then eventually build a following, we can just sort of hopefully attract more people to help put together the content and just help as many people as possible, essentially.

[00:00:50] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:07] People often say content is king, and personally, I’ve been looking forward to the moment where the digitally native Dental students and dentists come through. I’ve always thought there’s going to be an avalanche of content when when this particular generation come through and it’s exciting to see and it’s exciting to see if we’ve got some Dental students who’ve got their own podcasts and all of that. And for me, it’s really from a selfish perspective. It’s interesting because I like to know what our younger colleagues are thinking, but also the exchange of ideas. And it’s become very fashionable for older dentists to think that we know it all. But the exchange of ideas often sort of spurs a whole new way of looking at things. My guest today pleased to have both Zohar and Krista Vicario on the show. They’re responsible for something called Kaizen Dental, which we’ll get into. I’ll let them explain what that is, but essentially bite-sized learning that sort of content, both a couple of young dentists who I’ve been super impressed with when I’ve talked to them, and I thought that we should have them on show just just to get some more clarity about where everyone’s at. So great to have you, Chris and Bell.

[00:02:23] Thank you so much, Payman. Thanks for having us on.

[00:02:25] Yeah, thanks, Payman.

[00:02:26] So you guys met at Dental School?

[00:02:29] Yeah. So we’re good mates from probably from Freshers Week, to be honest. So there was five or six of us who are quite close. And yeah, just kind of sort of followed obviously a similar career path since since graduating and stuff like that. So a lot in common.

[00:02:44] Where do you study? You say kings, bacon, kings, OK? And Bell, what was the first time, the first time you saw Chris? What did you think of it? What was it? I know what he’s going to say. He’s going to say, What was it? What was he doing?

[00:02:57] This is a funny one because we still talk about to this day, right? So I was with another friend of mine manager, right? And we were kind of, you know, we knew each other from we kind of, I guess, you know, grew up in the same area. So we kind of knew each other when we went to, I guess, Freshers Week at Kings and we saw Chris there and Chris was like, you know, there’s kind of six foot guy wearing shorts and like, I think it was like September where it wasn’t even hot. And me and Anish, we jokingly said, What’s this clown doing,

[00:03:23] Like, you know, saying

[00:03:25] And. And that was kind of the first impression we had of him. And then as we got to speak to him, we realised that actually he did do a year in Spain because he actually, you know, before he went to kings, he was actually in Valencia studying dentistry and stuff. So it’s funny how that actually that comment just turned out to actually be true. So yeah, it was it was weird how that look, but that was the first time I actually saw Chris. And yeah, after that, we kind of, you know, kind of got on and, you know, it’s crazy to think so many years have passed. But yeah, we’re still really good, mate.

[00:03:53] And have you done, Chris, you’ve done a year in Valencia and then the rest here.

[00:03:56] Yes, I started again. So did a year at Valencia and then reapplied at the beginning of the second. Yet because all of my mates out there, she reapplied and got a place, I thought it’s worth a shot, just reapplied, and then obviously had to start to get a kings. But it was obviously a great experience and I think well worth it.

[00:04:14] So what was the biggest difference between year one and Valencia and Year One and Kings?

[00:04:20] To be honest, it’s quite in terms of the content. It’s all. There’s not much. There’s no dentistry, and I like first year kings or first year of Lance. I think we did a bit of tooth morph and first year after our finals in Kings, which was as close to dentistry as we actually got. But I’ll be honest, I was quite relaxed in and I wasn’t doing much studying. I was just playing. I wasn’t taking seriously either. I needed to come back and I needed to be in England.

[00:04:47] I think it’s a great town for partying. Our partner, our the person who distributes the composites that we distribute is from Valencia.

[00:04:55] Amazing cigar out there.

[00:04:56] Yeah, I’ve been there. I have been there. So tell me this when you met Belle for the first time.

[00:05:04] Well, my sorry. Yeah, I can’t even remember the first I’m sorry about

[00:05:10] The first time. You must have left my mark.

[00:05:14] Do you know what I remember the most about? Bowers in Farsi is big on his bangguo and his getting my shoulders and stuff at night, so

[00:05:22] I made it through the mini smile make over. Of course, when he won a prise to do because he had the best case, I think the best shot judged the case and and he came on to meet his FileMaker. Who was he? Do you remember him as always talented and Dental school as well, like one of those kids?

[00:05:41] Yeah, he to be honest about who he’s been, I’d say it’s kind of cringe. I want to say gifted. He’s he’s he was like your president. Obviously, his work speaks for itself. I think he’s he’s different to most people in that sense, and he is quite skilled. And I think he’s got a lot of attributes that you need to be a really good dentist. So we talk about this not to Bo that sometimes baffled me and other mates talk about how you’ve got the coms, the communication, obviously the clinical skills, you’ve got basically everything you need to be a good dentist.

[00:06:15] I think you guys are making

[00:06:16] Me believe

[00:06:19] I could go on

[00:06:21] To develop as a as a talented clinician. Did you? You know, this idea that you guys came up with doing this, Kaizen, was that the idea that you were going to provide the photos? And Chris, what you get at it or something this?

[00:06:37] Yes, it’s basically that’s a we used to send each other or we still do, but more so before we used that. We’re just starting off, just starting, taking photos and stuff. We’d send each other. I work for feedback or like critiquing, and then it got to the stage where bowels work would just overshadow it. Literally look like a textbook a little better than a textbook and one time actually sat down and say, Look, this is clearer than what we have in our textbooks. You need to just put this out to people. And because he takes photos of every step, which a lot of us have started doing now since seeing his work and people other people on Instagram. But honestly, I just thought the way that the pictures are so clear and so easily laid out, it’s so it just it’s so easy to learn from and it makes sense if he’s got this work to put it out there and obviously help other people like ourselves just starting out, and it could obviously learn from that.

[00:07:30] So which year did you guys quantify now?

[00:07:33] 2018 we are. Yeah, we qualified in 2018 now,

[00:07:36] And you have pandemic to keep you out of things for a long time. So yeah, yeah. So there’s there’s going to be people listening to this, you know, who think, well, you know, if you just qualified in twenty eighteen. What more, why don’t you want to teach anything now, I mean, it’s a bit early, isn’t it, for teaching? What would you say to that?

[00:07:59] That’s a good point. Payman, I think you know what, Chris and I kind of always try and push is that we’re not really, you know, experts or trying to teach. In a sense, we’re kind of just trying to share what we do on a daily basis and kind of our mistakes or some cases that go well, I’m just effectively have like a, you know, a platform where people can kind of learn from, you know, things that we’ve learnt through failures and kind of, you know, things that have gone well and looking at other kind of courses and stuff. So I think teach is a difficult one because we don’t want to come across as we’re teachers. It’s more just about providing free content and effectively just sharing kind of the stuff that we enjoy doing.

[00:08:40] And so you are teachers, I’d say you are teachers. I mean, looking at the content or you certainly will be teachers if you keep on going. But my question is, how come you’re thinking like this? And you know, I’m sure you have people in your year who aren’t thinking like this. I mean, were you think, were you talking about it as you were coming through Dental school or how? Why is it you guys? Why you?

[00:09:06] So, yeah, how actually all came about it was on a flight and a lads holiday to actually to Valencia, funnily enough, and we just had that sort of two and a half hour flight, whatever it was. And that’s when we had the main discussion. We thought, how can we reach the most people in a platform that obviously there’s great Facebook groups, there’s great Instagram pages and stuff, but there’s not much interaction through a page. We thought, how can we just keep it as kind of direct content? No bureaucracy, no no other stuff, just content. And the way we figured out would be the best way to do that would be via email mailing list. So we thought if we make a mailing list and just put out content and then eventually build a following, we can just sort of hopefully attract more people to help put together the content and just help as many people as possible, essentially.

[00:09:55] And I think one of the key things what Chris is kind of, I guess maybe going to mention a minute is about, like both of us, we do enjoy the clinical side of dentistry. So like, you know, when you say about like, why do we take so many photos or like, you know, we don’t just do before and afters of what cases we do and we kind of do step by steps. And a lot of that is kind of just because we actually enjoy doing that element of, I guess, you know, dentistry and and then we find that, yeah, there’s value in that in terms of sharing that information with others because people can actually, in a way, see how you might approach a case without actually being, you know, I guess, in the clinic or in the surgery watching you, but they can still have that same sort of value or benefit if you like.

[00:10:34] Yeah, I see that. I see that. And and I think, you know, for my older colleagues who probably thinking, you know what’s going on here, I think there is this difference. I mean, you’re right, there’s a difference between teaching and and sharing in a way. Yeah. But for me, you know, it’s an interesting thing because I talk to a lot of younger dentists who all want to teach. You know, it’s not it’s much, much more common than that in my day. I had the guys from deciduous on here as well. That’s probably going back. So it’ll be I’ll be at the end of the 40s you called. If you want to look up that episode, evergreen Hassan and syrup from from deciduous, which are reading that busy busy who? And they were saying the same thing. As soon as they came out, they did the PPG dip thing.

[00:11:26] The reason that we both did Chris and Chris was hired on course. Oh, so we sound like we just did just following each other in circles, but we did the same called same uni. Same everything.

[00:11:38] Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Yeah. And they were they were always thinking of doing something around teaching. And it’s just it’s just to me, it’s fascinating that it’s it’s actually a thing, you know, let’s go back. Let’s go back. Go, go. I’m sorry. But what do you say?

[00:11:55] I was going to say now, I think like, you know, it’s interesting what you said about like a lot of people now kind of are thinking about teaching or sharing content compared to maybe, you know, a few years ago, right? And I feel like maybe an element of that is kind of like, you know, typically when we go through Dental School, we’re not as prepped or as experience, you know, maybe people that graduated 10 or so years before us. Well, so in terms of like confidence wise, there’s probably there’s that element where we always feel like we need to do a course once we leave them to fall, a need to learn more, right? And I guess that’s always the case and always true, because, you know, that’s the nature of the game that you always want to further your skill set and whatnot. Yeah. But I feel as though there’s obviously that need now because clinically, you know, we’re graduating with doing a handful of ends or a handful extractions and all that sort of need. But I guess also the other thing is, is the way that people in terms of our sort of, I guess, cohort learnt, we’re very kind of like, you know, digital in terms of like, you know, we want to watch short videos or we want to, you know, I guess, have things like condensed and quite brief rather than going on these, you know, we still do, obviously, like Chris said, we do year long courses and whatnot, but there is that element, whereas two or multiple ways of learning. And I think that’s kind of why there’s a massive interest in sharing content or like you said, you know, teaching and kind of learning in that respect.

[00:13:11] You know, my my thing about about this is that, you know, as long as you produce good quality content, the content will find an audience for itself. And, you know, you do your best to produce good quality content, but when you started doing this, did you have in your head who was kind of your target audience? But was it Dental students as much as dentists?

[00:13:35] To be honest, both always had a really strong following on Instagram, and he’s got really good engagement and obviously his his work and his work speaks for something. People trust his content. And so by having him on board and obviously him making the majority of the content and the pictures, that obviously lends itself well to the majority of that audience following Kaizen, I think with Instagram now, probably more so. There are students that have started to follow Dental Instagram pages and stuff. When I was at uni, I don’t think many of us, my mates would follow Instagram Dental accounts. I thought generally it was kind of when you when you start beating, you start getting into actual clinical dentistry that you start sort of looking for tips and looking for ways to learn outside of conventional routes. And I think that that reflects quite sort of accurately in our audience. It’s probably 80 percent dentist, 20 percent Dental students.

[00:14:32] So give me give me an example of one of the bite sized bits that you might send to the mailing list.

[00:14:38] Yeah. So this is what we’re talking about. So it’s kind of like it’s not it’s not teaching anything super complex. It’s something like like how to how to cure through glycerine as a question that probably gets asked once a month, once a week, I don’t know. But it’s a really simple thing, and it’s not. It’s just something that’s really easy to document, really easy to explain, and you can just write two or three sentences on it, show people how to do it, and then they’ve got that in the bank. And ultimately, the goal would be to make a bunch of these different bite sized tips how to cure through glycerine, what a line angle is, how to move your line angles, things like this so that people have a kind of an encyclopaedia as to kind of the the practical aspects of procedure rather than the comprehensive treatment planning and all of that. That’s the really complex stuff, which we sort of don’t we don’t provide tips for, but it’s just more operative procedures and really simplifying each step.

[00:15:37] Yeah, but what does it look like when it arrives? Is it a one page thing or

[00:15:42] What is it? So the glycerine ones, like three sentences, I believe it’s it’s literally it’s literally just I can read out quickly for anybody, as this is when composites like the final layer is referred to as the oxygen inhibition there. This means oxygen interferes with the polymerisation of the composite, resulting in sticky uncured final layer. There are two main ways to overcome this and remove this final layer what method is to finish and polish the composite restoration? By doing this, you will essentially remove the outermost oxygen inhibition resin layer. However, by doing it this way, the dust from the finishing polishing can be difficult to remove from the restoration. Additionally, the fund raising particles collecting the bars and discs used during the finishing and policy stage rendering them useless. Alternatively, another method is to do the final like here through the glycerine gel. To do this, place the composite as you normally would like during incrementally as normal. Once you’ve placed the final composite layer right, like you’re the restoration, then place some glitter and gel over the cured restoration. And like you again, this is the final cure through glycerine. Now, rinse the glycerine off with water and finish and polish the restoration as normal. The result is a nice surface that’s easier to polish and harder. And then just the pictures that four pictures one pre-op, one prepped one after putting the composite in glycerine on and then the post-op. So it just follows really easily. And it just kind of you can just read it and then most people will understand it.

[00:17:01] And so about you wrote that.

[00:17:03] Well, I own a mixture, so he he took all the lovely pictures and then we both worked on the actual text and referencing it and stuff like that.

[00:17:11] So that was the question I was going to ask you then. What research do you do? It’s a very simple subject, right? The the oxygen division there. But you still got to get it right. Isn’t it because this is the big issue if you if you get it wrong? Loads of people get it wrong.

[00:17:27] That’s it. That’s the danger.

[00:17:29] So, yeah, so what do you do? What’s the due diligence process?

[00:17:33] So a lot of the like the tips or if it’s a simple tip, if it’s something practical, like a lean angle, it’s obviously harder to reference. You can just show with pictures what it is and how to do it. And there’s not much literature that’s that can probably probabilities, but it’s probably difficult to get the literature and condensed into a format that people will understand. So for that practical type stuff, we just sort of show the pictures say this is how we do it. This is what it is. Essentially, that’s it for things like oxygen inhibition. Now we use generally Google Scholar read a few articles and then find the the most relevant excerpts from that and then reference that. And it’s stuff that can’t really. It’s kind of objective, like with oxygen inhibition, it’s objective stuff. That’s that’s it’s just facts, essentially. So it’s quite easy to reference something like that. But the practical stuff is obviously a little bit more difficult.

[00:18:28] Well, yeah. But you know, at the same time, if if you only look in references when you’re talking about something like simple like that, if you only try and look it up on on Google Scholar, you’re not going to get what’s the current thinking? You know, and what I would do if I were you is I would I would have, you know, mentors, essentially, people are really good at this stuff on each subject and just run it by them to to make sure you’re not missing something. You know, it’s it’s an important thing. I’m not saying you’re missing anything.

[00:19:00] No, definitely. Definitely, definitely. I think I think was really well connected with obviously, it works with George and Erin, so anything we put out generally to build a symbol for them.

[00:19:13] Yeah, I feel like, you know what, you said, Payman is true. You know, it’s always good to have like mentors and people that guide you along the way. Yeah, you know, I’m privileged to work with some really, really good need and Dental to kind of help and teach me massive amounts. But I think with like mentoring and kind of me personally, I’ve I remember when I was at uni, I had a mentor essentially kind of, you know, let me kind of shadow him whilst I was a Dental student and took me under his wing. Let me know for him and stuff like that. Whilst, you know, being a student

[00:19:42] Shot about who was that

[00:19:44] Shout about from Burzynski, who was like, you know, very, very talented, well-known dentist, especially amongst kind of the the students now who are probably listening as well because he’s involved in a lot of kind of, you know, extracurricular Dental sci fi stuff and so on. But he really kind of, I guess, changed my trajectory, you know, whilst I was at uni because it was something like, you know, you know, when you’re, you know, you’re trying to find your what you enjoy trying to find your feet and stuff. And when you’re at uni, you’re kind of drowned in all the sort of information you don’t. You can’t really gauge what you like and what you don’t like. So I was really grateful to this day. I’m really grateful that, you know, he gave me that opportunity to come over to the practise and essentially, you know, once every few weeks just literally stand in awe, actually, you know, assist with certain treatments. And it kind of changed the way that I saw things like prepping or only prepping. Or he used to do some period stuff like in terms of prior surgery and prominent. And again, it’s crazy because, you know, a Dental student who especially like now when you think about like confidence, you know, like trying to obviously be confident to take on complex cases or take on things that you’ve not done before, even if it’s like an only prep when you’ve not done it before at uni, there’s that sort of confidence barrier there. So that’s for me change when I was obviously in third year, fourth or fifth year, just going in to watch him. And that’s how my confidence grew. So, you know, you know how you asked earlier about you graduating in 2018, but you know, things are moving quick. That was kind of why it happened or how it happened is that I was already three three years in to Dental going over there once every maybe month or so, you know? So it was a big change for me in terms of what I wanted to do and what I liked and stuff, so I’m massively grateful to him.

[00:21:22] And where are you both working now?

[00:21:24] I’m based on two practises, so ones in Essex and one’s in Wimbledon. So the one in Wimbledon’s with our has been George Cheatham, who you know is known as George. The dentist on Instagram is an insanely talented dentist and all-around great guy. Aaron’s not too bad. You know they’re really good guys.

[00:21:43] That was Bell and Chris. How about you?

[00:21:46] Yeah, I’m just working in near home. So five 10 minutes from home and like a Portland practise. Weston Bromley, South East London.

[00:21:55] Ok, so let’s let’s take it back to your childhood. Normally we start with that, but in your case, I want to avoid that kind of thing, we’ll get back to Class A.. Did you grow up in Bromley, Chris?

[00:22:08] Yeah, in and around Bromley. So I was born in Dartford, so just that’s just a bit further south, east and or east, and then moved to Bromley when I was about nine 10 and then been here since.

[00:22:19] And so you grew up in Bromley, studied in kings and went straight back to Bromley.

[00:22:24] Yeah. Yeah, it’s quite boring, isn’t it? I did one year in, did well, I did one year in Valencia and then one year, of course, of course, high Wickham. So, so and I went boarding school, I went boarding school as well for like four or five years. So I’ve been a bit out of only a couple of times.

[00:22:41] How did dentistry come up? Was it your parents or was it?

[00:22:45] I have a couple of family, friends who are dentists, and they were kind of the ones who after kind of shadowing them and just watching them. When I realised it was, it was a good career that you can kind of pick your hours quite if you’ve got good control of your books hours. And obviously it’s decent money and it’s sort of all around a decent job. I’m not somebody who’s always wanted to do dentistry. I just looked at it practically sort of added everything like it looks. For me, it looked like the career that fit me most suitably and probably would have done something more sort of, I guess, rather a bit more bizarre. Well, what about this, wasn’t it?

[00:23:35] What?

[00:23:36] I would love to do something just left field or just something completely random, but obviously you can’t make money from things that you can. But it’s not as predictable to just do a random, just a random career. If I could turn back the time, I would have just done something, I would have just started a YouTube channel young and just fill an audience that way and done some of that.

[00:23:58] Well, Chris, but you’re not disillusioned already, are you?

[00:24:01] A little bit. A little bit. It’s obviously a really good career. I can’t see myself doing dentistry five days a week until I’m 60. I’m definitely not. I think I want to cut down to ideally maybe two clinical days and find something that can support me three days outside of clinical dentistry. So that would be the goal. I think it’s too labour intensive. It’s a really mentally and physically exhausting job, in my opinion. Dentistry yeah, to be able to do it a couple of days a week recoup and sort of have something else that you can do three days, that would be an ideal situation for me.

[00:24:36] Yeah. Five days a week is a big mistake for everyone, I think. Yeah. You know, there are other combinations, too. Two days I’ve done two days a week. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant because you do need another side hustle. That’s it. What about you, Bill? Where did you grow

[00:24:53] Up in boxing? So you signed it? Uh huh..

[00:24:56] And dentistry was the first time dentistry came on your radar.

[00:25:02] And you know what, I think it’s probably, you know, when it’s that kind of, you know, applying to University Farm, you’re kind of just toying up with what you want to do and what not. So I was kind of always thinking between like medicine and dentistry, as probably most people are when obviously looking at health care profession, right? And I remember I just did like working in the hospital, and I just can’t do this. Like, you know, I was shadowing a doctor on a ward round, and it just was not kind of aligning with what I wanted to do. And I just simply, yeah, you went to practise Dental practise locally, you know, stood in for about a week and kind of liked it. And I was like, Yeah, this doesn’t seem too bad. And then I remember the the principal at the time, he was just like, Yeah, if you want to make a lot of money, do dentistry, and that was it. And I was like, Okay, cool. And it was literally just that. But yeah, I don’t know how much truth there was to that in terms of, you know, now because I guess obviously times have changed. Or, you know what, I’m really, you know, I’m really happy with what I do dentistry. I really enjoy it. You know, I feel like we’re in a very privileged and lucky position to be able to treat patients. And, you know, you can obviously find what you like even within the profession. Like, you know, if it’s not kind of clinical, you can do non-clinical stuff. Even when it’s clinical, you can obviously find your niche in terms of all the surgery, restorative and whatnot. So you’ve always got that sort of variety. So I’m, you know, I’m happy with what I chose and whatnot.

[00:26:16] Yeah, yeah. And Chris, you will be too. I mean, you know, people, people don’t do what you guys have done without a fair bit of energy and, you know, inspiration and perspiration. And that’s what it’s going to take doing whatever aspect of it, you know, look at me, I don’t practise anymore at all. Ten years I stopped practising, but I’m still in dentistry. And you’re right. Well, it’s a very flexible career, and I was very interested in what you said about your mentor because, you know, I had a very similar story from Dipesh about his mentor, Louis McKenzie in Birmingham University, who gave them, I think it was nine 10 days of hands on composite to the students to to to a group of students, to a small group of students. And when you think about that, which dentists, you know, who’s done 10 days of hands on composite, these guys were getting it in Dental school and then I’m very interested in the school of social media, you know, and how much you can do from social media. And a lot of people are really, you know, think it’s ridiculous and you can’t learn from it. But some of the quality of work that I’m seeing from younger dentists like yourself, Bell for me, must have been you must have been learning from other dentists on Facebook and Instagram. Am I right?

[00:27:39] Well, definitely, definitely. I think like, you know, like, you know, George’s account, like Georgia, the dentist, that’s like one that I think everybody would say like these kids go to. Oh, for sure. Like, you know, he breaks it down and he makes it as simple to kind of just digest like, you know, topics that maybe we wouldn’t have experienced or learn about at uni or whatnot. And yeah, massively. I feel like there’s there’s so much value in accounts like that, and there’s so many of them out there. But yeah, I completely agree with you. I feel like you can learn and take information away from these sort of these social media accounts, for sure.

[00:28:14] Tell me about how it felt. I mean, what are you one year in associates now or what is it

[00:28:21] Starting a third year? It makes us that old. Yeah, I’m not old, but I sound like.

[00:28:25] No, but you had you had COVID, you had vet so.

[00:28:28] Yes, a vet. Twenty eighteen to nineteen first year associate. Nineteen to twenty. But then that was disrupted.

[00:28:34] So this is twenty first year kind of.

[00:28:38] Yeah, kind of like a second, I guess if you do the maths, probably about a year starting the second.

[00:28:44] So I remember it was the same sort of story with the deciduous guy. I was talking to them about this. I remember at that point being super disillusioned with my life, not talking about work. I’m talking about life because one minute you’re a student, next, you’re a vet, and the next minute you’re actually a real person. Yeah. And the real, real person without your sort of social support around you that you had with Dental School and straight after I found that really like, I don’t know, man, I was like in that room with my nurse thinking, What is this? What it was all about? Like this? This really and and this group of patients, you know, was the only one and all that to you.

[00:29:32] I can definitely resonate with that completely. I think for me, vet and probably my first associate job, I would agree completely. I think it’s really easy to, especially with social media and seeing people doing all these amazing cases and stuff and then seeing that sort of where you are and where you want to be. I think that is is obviously disillusioning.

[00:29:55] And yeah, why don’t you go tell me, at least at least help the audience to say Yes, BAL is you.

[00:30:01] To definitely, you know, it’s it’s true because like, you know, nothing prepares you for that Payman like, you know, when you’re in Dental school, right, you don’t learn about like how dentistry is going to be outside of Dental school, right? So you’re kind of like in a bubble. You get into vet and you’re like, I’m doing endo on like somebody that I’ve only done it on a block or something on a plastic tooth or something like that. Yeah. So then there’s that kind of bit to it. So then you’re like, Okay, all the stuff that you’re, you know, you’re so unprepared for, you’re actually doing. And then you go to like social media and you see all these other people who might be a similar age or, you know, whatever to you doing this amazing work. And then you thought, Oh crap, you know, I’m doing this and they’re doing that. So there’s that element to it. And yeah, you know, then you then you go and become an associate where, you know, luckily in the practise I work, there’s that degree of mentorship there. But if you’re not, you can end up in a completely like disillusioned or like, you know, position or like a space where you just like, like you said, you’re just questioning like, is this? Is this it?

[00:31:04] How did you get the job with your dentist so quick? How did it happen? Did you know someone who knew someone?

[00:31:10] Yeah. So how did it happen? That was so. Oh yes. So I started posting some of the work that I was doing during vet. Right. So just simple kind of, you know, rubber dam and composites or whatnot. And I remember just kind of, you know, asking George questions here and there, as you know, time went on and whatnot. And then I saw him maybe a year later or six months later or something like that put up. Remember that he’s looking for an associate, the Wimbledon practise and then I, you know, sent him my CV and portfolio whatnot. And then he just had come down for a chat. A couple of months later, I went over to the practise and it was essentially just, you know, like, I guess, speaking about dentistry and it was very, you know, chilled out in terms of that, I guess, interview, if you like. And I just met George, Aaron and they had a look at my work and that was it, really. And then obviously a couple months later, we were actually in Valencia in that time and he messaged me, So yeah, we are. We are. It’d be good if you if you want to kind of, I guess, you know, join the team. And you know, I said it would be a second think. Second, guess it or whatnot, it’s just kind of like, Yeah, it’s good. I’m very fortunate, very lucky. And I was quite surprised. Like you said, I’ve got it quite early because that was a massive learning curve for me, you know, because when you’re in a I guess, just finished vet, right? Like it was January of 2019.

[00:32:22] No, yeah. January of 2020. So I just finished Vanderbilt a couple months into practise, and then I joined them like a few months later. So in March, just before the pandemic, right? And it was like going from like mixed practise where it’s high needs to going to, you know, in practise. So it was like one end of the scale all the way to the other. So that was a big learning curve for me. So like in terms of gauging expectations, working with patients in that respect, because a lot of it comes down to communication like, you know, obviously we post work of our clinical work, but we post photos of our clinical work. Sorry, but these patients, obviously, they just want what they consider a good dentist. Obviously, some degree of it is going to be how good you are clinically and is a pain free and so on. But a lot of it comes down to communication and how they so treat it. And in that sense, so there was a bit of a learning curve for me with that. And you know, again, like I said before, I was very lucky that George and Aaron helped me and took me under their wing and they’ve always made before like, I’ve got that you were mentioning in the practise, which I’m really, really grateful for.

[00:33:20] What do you think about when, if I say to you, what’s been your most difficult case? What would your most difficult patient that you’ve had to, you know, your worst clinical call it a mistake? It doesn’t have to call it a mistake, but we ask everyone this question Can you think of something that you know people can learn from your mistake?

[00:33:42] Um, you know, I’ve got I’ve had loads of experiences or like challenging like situations right where I look back and I’m like, Oh, I should not have done that or I should’ve done it differently or whatnot. Like kind of a couple that stand out. I remember there’s one like, you know, try to take a tooth out, right? Really simple look on the x ray is like a retained root for a three molar, and I’ll get you. I’ll take these last five minutes and it will, you know, it’ll be easy. Walking apart patient wasn’t in any pain or anything like that, so it was just kind of like a finding that we found, you know, instantly finding on the checklist or whatever. And I just remember I was like, You know, when you like your trigger happy like you just kind of think, I’m going to dive in, do it, and that’s fine. It’ll be done. And I didn’t realise until I was halfway through that I kept crumbling. It wasn’t happening. That was enclosed, another crack. And it was like such a small piece that I just couldn’t get to. I just kind of like, step back. And I remember, like, at that point, the patient knew that I kind of, you know, I kind of lost her confidence, if you like. At that point, I knew as I was like, You know what? Sometimes it’s just then it’s like, take two seconds to actually like, you know, basically just assess the x rays and just kind of assess the patient.

[00:34:49] She wasn’t in any pain or anything. She just wanted to out because again, she knew the risks of it being in or whatever. But it was just like simple, basic dentistry that sometimes like you, just you don’t even, you know, when you’re when you’re in the kind of the sort of speed of no associate dentistry in terms of patient after patient, you just get caught up in it. And that was kind of just one thing that I thought, You know what, sometimes I need to just take a breath, you know, and you don’t always have to like, you know, sometimes me and Chris are talking about as recently as well is that you always feel like you have to say yes to patients like patients ask you, Can you do this or can you help with issues like Yes, yes, and I don’t know why, but sometimes it’s okay. So now you know, somebody else can do it better than me. Or I can say this to my colleagues who make sure it’s unsafe or more comfortable for you and so on. And again, that’s something that I think I’m learning now with more experience, and it’s okay to say no, you know?

[00:35:39] Yeah, but what happened? Ok, you struggled with this tooth and then

[00:35:43] I couldn’t get out. I just I said to it now I can’t get this out. She was obviously quite unhappy with that fact because she knew that I was in no pain before I came in and I was like, Yeah, I’m so sorry. Obviously, you know, the situation is that I just physically can’t do it, but I could have probably done it now thinking about it if subject to the surgical and just removed a little bit of bonus stuff. But it got to that point where she lost confidence in me. I’ve kind of lost confidence in myself where I was like, No, you know what? I need to just stop because I should have probably not started. So now at least I can stop before it gets worse. That makes sense. But yeah, you know, and that was kind of a situation where she’s probably had, you know, a week or two weeks of pain because, you know, it’s actually what I referred to on, obviously. Yeah, I referred her on and so on. But it was just that sort of, you know, while she’s waiting for the referral, that one or two weeks or whatever it was, it probably wasn’t the most comfortable for her. So that’s just one example. There’s no you know what? Touch wood, she didn’t. And you know, she had every right to, I guess, isn’t it? But she actually she didn’t. I guess I followed a lot. You know, I obviously called her a day or so later and just touched. Basically, I feel like that’s obviously what I would have wanted if I was in that situation, right?

[00:36:54] Yeah, I mean, full of so important, you know, I don’t know if you guys maybe George probably does this in this practise, but you know you should have someone call three or four patients a day. All the extractions, all the Arctis, anyone who’s anything someone should always call me. Oh, for sure, really sensitive side. But by the way, for me, the nurse should call and say, You know, doctor, so I’ll ask me to see if you’re OK. You know, for me, I should leave. Leave it up to the nurses decide who to call, but she would know she would know the right people. Chris, what about you? What’s what’s your horror story that that’s not really good enough for me, man. I mean, you telling me that’s the best, best story you got. You think you keep thinking

[00:37:35] About that one? I probably had that on a on a least fortnightly basis during vet. I just I couldn’t get teeth out. Luckily, I had one of my using really good friend now, but he was my trainer at the time jabs and I used to call him in. If he was in two days a week, every Thursday and Friday, he would get a message on it. So he set the teeth up because at the time, I’ve been lucky in my last practise that the referral pathway. So my previous practise was NHS as obviously as well as my vet practise in some areas. Obviously, it’s quite difficult to send a referral and get a referral accepted. So the vet practise particularly, I felt pressured to take out a lot of difficulty that either either I leave the patient in pain or I send a referral, which is going to get rejected, or I try my best to take the teeth out. And I knew I had that support system. If anything did go on, if it was difficult, if the tooth broke, Japs would be there to kind of get me out of a bad situation. But that happened on it, honestly, or at least once a month where a tooth would break and I try to take it. I couldn’t get it out and cause upset. He would work his magic and take it out a little bit better extractions. Now, luckily. I know those awful.

[00:38:46] So what’s your story?

[00:38:48] I thought I was going to make most mistakes that you can make I’ve made I’ve puffed and puffed through the floor of the pulp chamber during. I think the biggest thing is like, Bull said, especially earlier on to like during my VTi-L and first year associate, I would always feel pressured to do treat if a patient came in, kicked up a fuss and said they wanted this treatment. I would always feel pressured to do it. So there was one case, for example, where a patient wanted me to add some composite over a veneer where it receded slightly back basically told it wasn’t the best idea. She said she’s had it before. She really wants it to be put back. And I thought, Okay, look, if she had it before, I can explain the risks is obviously likely to fail at some point. Let me just do it. And then I did. I plan to do it. Plan that phantom some cleaning and Aristide beforehand. But it sort of printed out the plan with the cleaning and Aristide first and then the composite afterwards. And then she kind of took the plan away. Cord into reception said that I made it quite clear that you need to do the period before we can do the composite. But she called into reception and said, Look, I just want the composite. I don’t want the cleaning. And then they mistakenly booked her in. So then I turned up. She turned up on the day and we didn’t have the type of composition.

[00:40:15] It was a special type of composite that there was a pink composite essentially to cover up the reception area, and she didn’t want that composite. So we didn’t have that composite in stock on the day, so I couldn’t do it. But she really, really reacted badly to not having the composite in stock. And at that point I told Reception, I don’t I don’t think I’m gonna be able to meet this patient’s expectations. I don’t think we should be Booker. But the reception came in. Patient was obviously kicking off. She was she was really upset and then reception went and sort of booked Trimble on my colleagues without confirming or asking him. He yeah. So, so then he explained the case to him, and he’s then in an awkward situation where he hasn’t seen the patient, but he’s kind of has to see her now. And then he got pressured into doing the treatment, and I think he did a really good job. I think he did a really good job. But the patient ended up just kicking up a fuss and complaining, essentially. So just dealing with that at the moment, which is the biggest kind of stress so far. It’s the first complaint I’ve had and kind of she’s put me in there and a bunch of stuff about the exam appointment, and it’s like a really, really difficult complaint to deal with.

[00:41:25] Complaints are difficult for stop, but I mean, you didn’t do you haven’t done anything on the patient, right? So it’s always a lot easier when you haven’t done anything on the patient. But let’s go to what can we learn from that?

[00:41:37] I think you just after this, I’ve just learnt to say no now. So this was a recent case. And since then I’ve realised that even if a patient wants it, even if patients had it before and they want something that they’ve had it and they just want it put back. I just. If if it’s not the best treatment and you don’t agree with it, just say no.

[00:41:56] Yeah, but there was a failure, right? There was a failure between the fact that they booked him in. But was it her book The Patient In? Yeah, without telling you that the patient was expecting that and then the composite not being available?

[00:42:10] Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:11] There’s a couple of failures there that were not to do with you saying guests in this treatment that yeah, and that needs reviewing, doesn’t it? Definitely. And a lot of times in these situations, you know, we we like you said bell communication ends up being the most important part of it. And if if reception had said, you know what was going to happen and it did happen and then you did your bit, you probably wouldn’t have ended up as a complain.

[00:42:38] That’s it. So you’re ultimately that’s the other thing that is ultimately it comes down to the dentist. So yeah, it’s all you’re a lot of your day to day responsibilities and your day to day your work is is very heavily reliant on the full team, as it should be as it should be. But if anything ever goes wrong, it’s 100 percent on the dentist.

[00:43:00] So, yeah, I mean, look, it is. It is pretty much medically legally, but it’s a lot easier anyway to take responsibility for this sort of thing in your own head. Because, you know, I’ve had situations where I don’t know how a member of staff who I feel like I’m doing everything for this member of staff. And still, you know, he’s not appreciating it and he’s not doing the thing that I want him to do. And if you if you don’t take responsibility for it yourself, then tomorrow your happiness is based on that person, what they’re going to be like. Whereas, you know, it’s my responsibility. If I don’t like the guy, I should fire the guy, you know? You know, I’ve hired the guy. He’s still there. I haven’t fired it. When you take responsibility, I’m talking about your own head, I’m not talking about out there in your own head. Suddenly your day just becomes a lot easier because it’s all it’s only you that you have to worry about and have to worry about other people so much. That’s it. I’ll tell me that ethical extraction can’t be. I mean,

[00:44:04] I lead a very, very unexciting life Payman. That’s that is probably one of the bad ones. You know, I know. Well, recently again, Chris, as we were chatting about this last week and it comes to running on a patient, right? It was low as lower teeth like incisors, which I think are super, super tough because they’re so small and kind of managing the shapes and all that sort of stuff. So we did it and there are so so in terms of kind of what happened right is that, you know, I went through the general sort of information that you have. You got a deadline on the treatment. You want to get this done by and and she was like, Yeah, and matter of fact, I do have a deadline. And she was like, Oh, I need it done by this date. And I normally don’t work Saturdays. But because the only day I can do, I’m booked Monday to Friday. I’ll come in on a Saturday. So it’s kind of, you know, trying to get my way, accommodate everything to make sure it was done for this patient. And we did it. I came in on a day off and everything we sorted out did the composite bonding, and it looked really good. I was actually really happy. Patient was, you know, I wouldn’t say as happy as I was, but she was like, Yeah, and they always are. So anyway, she was like, You know, there’s always that little bit of suspense when you give them

[00:45:13] The Murray like, you know, I’m just going to go. It could go

[00:45:16] Either way anyway. Yeah. So she she saw it. She’s like, Yeah, it looks alright. And I was thinking, I’m a nurse was like, You know, we were like, we were awful. We did a really good job. But she was like, Yeah, no, you know, she’s like, Yeah, it looks. It looks okay. That’s good. So at the end of the appointment, I said, Oh, by the way, good luck for on Saturday. The deadline was Monday. Obviously, the next week. So I was like, Good luck for your your photo shoot stuff. One of the Monday, which was the whole point of us doing this composite bonding by this time, like we really kind of expedited everything right? And she was, oh yeah, by the way, that got cancelled, that got pushed back like three months. And I was like, Oh, okay, cool. And I was like, Oh, fine, whatever. And I remember I changed my plans that day because I was supposed to be in Birmingham or somewhere else, right? I was just outside London, so I was like, Oh God, that’s annoying. Anyway, it’s fine. Obviously, I had a booking for a review a couple of weeks later, and then I realised that I’d cut the lip whilst I was doing the treatment. So the bonding for the lower lip got cut, right? And I obviously didn’t read up on the day and I didn’t have to rub it down. So, you know, I was thinking that the rubber down would have. I didn’t see any of that sort of stuff happen. So I was I was a bit confused. Anyway, it happened, right? And then what happens is, is that obviously see a full review and everything and see that there is still maybe four weeks or five weeks later, the review there is still a bit of a mark on the lip.

[00:46:28] And obviously, at this point, she’s not very happy, as obviously you can understand, right? Happy with the bonding now, but not happy with Mitt. So I’m like, Oh crap. Like, what do I do? Right? And I remember at this point I’d done like a few extra things for in terms of the appointment, like I’d done a three, you know, clean because it was just like we couldn’t get her in for the appointments clause of the deadline under the clean and a free six retainer after the bonding to make sure the people to move and so on. And then obviously, she wanted some additions to the incisal edges at the review appointments. I did those again free of charge. Everything was fine. But again, there’s a cut on the list and I’m really kind of like, you know, you have to deal with these things. Obviously, it’s a spa on our own indemnity. You’ve got to be quite careful because it is facial scarring, right? So you’ve got to deal with this and whatnot anyway. Reviewed her again. But then everything in the room was fine. So you know me, her and my nurse in the room, we discussed it. I apologised, told her it shouldn’t have happened and everything like that. And then I thought, OK, it’s dealt with. I’m going to review again in a couple of weeks to see how the scar seating right now. What happens is she goes to the reception and she says, Oh, is there going to be a compensation for this facial scarring? And I was like, Well, and then obviously, you know that that conversation never happened with me in the room.

[00:47:43] So it was kind of something that she just said to the reception. So again, there was that element of like stress or something. And oh, god, like now, like, I’ve done so many bits in terms of the retainer, the cleans and all this other stuff, but like us now also give our compensation and stuff. So there is that element to it. And thankfully, in the end, again, maybe I don’t know. This is like eight weeks later or something. Things have settled because that’s where the bonding the scar is no longer a concern. We did give us some compensation and kind of resolve the matter, right? But that kind of a nightmare period of like stress because it was stress, it was absolute stress man, because you feel as though like, we, you know, obviously it never should have happened. I said this to, you know, the dentist and the receptionist was like, It’s obviously my error. I’ve cut the lips. I’m out. I don’t know how, but it’s how you still don’t know. I hold my hands up. I thought, I know because I checked the photos of the work in terms of, you know, I’ve had some step by step, but it was as well. And I just never where it was cut. I just never. The rubber dam in the area, so it definitely didn’t happen during that phase of the treatment, and the only time the rubber dam was off was towards the end, which was maybe 10 minutes either. It was then I must have caught it without

[00:48:51] Realising I would a burn. You know, maybe it burn. I’ve seen you on the show. And she said she had a handpiece that was not aligned perfectly and she didn’t realise it, but it was getting hot.

[00:49:04] And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that could be a thing, right? Yeah, like I always suspected, you know, we have these metallic. Yeah, we have these metal cheek retractions in the press. And when your lips dry out after a long period of treatment, right, you know, when you’re pulling them and when you’re doing the lows, it’s all like, I really pull them down to make sure there’s no, you know, you get complete exposure of the lows. And I think that that might have been a reason, but I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m just speculating that, but thankfully touch with things of kind of, I guess, settled. But that phase of when you’ve got that looming over your head, man, it’s not. It’s not good. It’s a nightmare. It’s yeah, it’s not a good place to be in.

[00:49:39] Would you have handled it differently in retrospect?

[00:49:43] Yeah. Not lip. Yeah. You know what? You know what? That’s a good question, because I’m not really reflecting on it. It’s one of those like the back of my mind. So like, now you ask me, that is kind of making me reflect on it. Would I have handled it differently? I think I did all the stuff that maybe, you know, we’re advised to do about owning it in terms of apologising, accepting to it all. That sort of stuff was all done and it was done multiple times, you know? I don’t know what I would have done differently at this moment in time, to be honest. Maybe if you ask me that, you know, with more experience, I probably would say yes, because I’m sure there’s always going to be things like Dental do, right? But yeah, I don’t know, to be honest.

[00:50:21] And there are certain things I who knows. Who knows, right? Whether, you know, maybe, maybe she felt aggrieved and it didn’t matter how charming you were, she was going to, you know, get come for you. It’s possible. But you know, I was in a I was at a restaurant in summer and we were in Cyprus, and they were super strict on the whole vaccine thing. And we had none that we had a 14 year old with us and with 14 year olds, they had to test every three days. They looked at everyone’s thing and then they said, Oh, this 14 year old, he’s two hours late, so he needs another test and none of us can eat. There was a table for 14. No way no one could eat because because, you know, unless you want to leave the guy, leave the 14 or something, which I certainly thought about doing. I wanted to feel it looked like such a nice play anyway. So everyone’s everyone’s getting like, really bit het up, you know, God is 14. He had a test, but it’s just two hours later, you know, just give us a break. And you know, we’re in Cyprus. We were in Switzerland. But, you know, she was being quite strict about it and it thank God he found this piece of paper, whatever. But then she completely handled us. Here she went. It went from angry people to suddenly she went, Oh, where are you guys from? And then suddenly she was. She gave it a thorough compliment out to the women to, oh, the women from there, always so, so beautiful. And and just change the moment from the hell are you talking about to, Oh, let’s go and enjoy ourselves, you know? And I guess it comes that sort of thing comes with experience and it comes with, you know, some, some some people are good at that sort of thing and some people are now, would it would there have been something in a restaurant’s situation? It’s a lot easier to compliment the patient than when you’ve burnt their lip, right?

[00:52:18] Yeah, that’s true. And I think you know what it is Payman is all like when you when you have a complaint, right? You automatically lose like common sense and you just assume the worst like it all goes out the window. Yeah. And I think that’s like a big thing as well. Like, we just see, you know, red and just go completely like panic mode, which again, maybe it’s an experience thing. I’m sure there’s going to be people listening or dentists who aren’t like that. And that’s probably because they’ve got

[00:52:42] Everyone panics, but everyone panics when it happens, and sometimes you’ve got a lot more to lose. I know you feel like you’ve got it all to lose, but people start thinking, What if I, you know, I have to take my kids out of school and these can’t pay my mortgage, can’t pay my mortgage and have to take my kids out of school? You know what I mean for a dentist? You feel like that’s all you know how to do. So it can get super, super stressful, and we all know the stories of how stressful it can get. But what my advice to you both is that there’s going to be more and more complaints. Yeah, there is, you know, Bell, you’re such a brilliant dentist. First of all, people should follow your page. What is it, Dr. Bell?

[00:53:23] Dr. Bell, Sara,

[00:53:24] Thanks very much for the plug. Dr. Dorsey, I know the quality of the work really, really stunning for someone who’s two years out, three years out, whatever you want to call it, really, really stunning work.

[00:53:35] No, I appreciate that, right?

[00:53:36] But but but yeah, there’s loads of stuff you don’t know. You know, there’s loads of stuff you don’t know. You don’t know to quote the famous politician. And this there’s loads of bad luck in in in dentistry, you know, as well as good luck. Yeah, there’s going to be some people who are going to be unhappy and they’re going to complain. You have to think about complaints as part of the job. Yeah, for sure. These days. Particularly you can’t you can’t you can’t get yourself down over it. Easier said than done. They gave me, well, how do you guys feel about where this case education is going to go? Because, you know, the little conversation that I had with you guys was, for me, it seems obvious that, you know, email newsletter isn’t the way it should stay should. It should be more. Video And we were talking about technology. Yeah.

[00:54:33] But you’re going to be our pick up manager Payman.

[00:54:37] Yeah, I need to download TikTok. Actually, even after I forgotten to after our conversation, I need to get on that.

[00:54:43] Yeah, but you’re right. I think you know what we were talking about, obviously was kind of having more interactive, engaging content and video is obviously the key to that, right? And with what we do at the minute, like a big component of it is obviously bite size, you know, very small, digestible tips, right? And the video lends itself so nicely to that because, like we said before, it just kind of, you know, it makes it so much more engaging. So that is definitely on the cards in terms of we’ve got a lot of video content we’ve we’ve already pre-recorded, you know, a few months back and so on. So that is in the pipeline. Yeah, I feel like emailing is good. It kind of allows people to look at it at their own time and so on. And it obviously helps with other things that we do with Kazan. But the video is definitely where it’s going to probably lend itself nicely in the next couple of months.

[00:55:31] But, you know, with the email again, it’s arriving in their inbox with social and all that you’ve got to, you know, pick up loads of followers, right? That’s it. Yeah. Your page bill is aimed at Dental more than it’s aimed at patients, right?

[00:55:46] Yeah, for sure. That’s the payment thing is right. Yeah, you’re completely right because, you know, this was a Baptist and rubber dam and stuff that patients wouldn’t obviously engage with, right? Yeah. But the kind of I guess we’re not. When I started that whole Instagram page was, you know, like selling meat, and it was essentially to kind of move out of the NHS and more into a private setting. And that was kind of an obviously I like I said at the beginning, I enjoyed industry, enjoy doing, you know, taking photos of my work and so on and learning and reflecting. So that was kind of kind of a dual benefit that I wanted to also get a private job, but then also kind of just show my work and reflect on it myself and whatnot. But yeah, I feel as though, you know, potentially with time, maybe it will, or maybe it will change towards being more geared at patients. Yeah, you know, I guess it’s good to have a mixture.

[00:56:37] How about you, Chris? We we were experimenting with this question at Backhed, which was just last week when I was listening to this in three years time. And we were saying, if you can have three people at a dinner party

[00:56:52] That dentists or generally anyone

[00:56:54] Humans.

[00:56:55] Oh, OK, it’s a great question.

[00:56:58] Dead or alive?

[00:56:59] Oh, this is going to come back to that. I need to think about it for like five minutes, probably. I’ll just give you a rubbish answer. But have you got a of the stuff you want?

[00:57:09] And you know what, I’m.

[00:57:15] I’d say. This is one of these when you put on the spot, it’s so hard.

[00:57:20] No, I’d say, you know. You know, David Goggins. Yeah. Yeah, you guys are ahead of him and ready to look and whatnot. I’d probably say him. Yeah, for sure. I think that’s kind of like the never give up.

[00:57:31] You know that

[00:57:32] Guy? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly that. It’s like, you know, inspirational stuff when you kind of hack into that, that sort of mentality, right?

[00:57:39] Right. I gave up, I gave up reading the book halfway through. That’s the funny

[00:57:50] Thing.

[00:57:52] He’s a cool dude, though, because I heard him on Joe Rogan or something.

[00:57:57] Yeah, you bet you. You bet. I hope it doesn’t listen to you, your podcast mate.

[00:58:01] Yeah, I don’t think he will. But, you know, if he did, you internalise that question of once, once you’re completely, completely, you know, spent out, there’s still another 60 percent in you. And yeah, you do that for sure. Like I did that one, you know? Yes, I remember.

[00:58:24] It’s crazy because it is like, you know, my career in mind and obviously that mentality side of things, which, you know, you only think you have so much to give or to kind of handle, right? But like there are obviously layers to it, and I feel like it’s unlocking those layers and stuff. But I feel like that’s, you know, I follow them on Instagram and I always watch his videos and so on. Like, I just feel as though he’s super inspirational.

[00:58:46] Chris, you’ve got to have one is, do you know what it would be? Somebody like Jeff Bezos or somebody who’s just made it to the top, you know, somebody who’s just like, they’ve built an enterprise. And they just got so much knowledge that they can potentially share over a dinner, somebody that is probably quite a boring one. It’s not as exciting as David Goggins.

[00:59:05] So, OK, what’s been Typekit? No, it’s a business. You saying a business leader? Yeah, yeah. Get somebody to pick one that isn’t just the biggest business in the world. Yeah, because all right, we’re all going to have the biggest business in the world, but pick a pick and pick a business that you really admire in one way or the other. Like, for instance, I would have I don’t even know his name. The guy from Red Bull, whoever that is, you know that, dude?

[00:59:29] Well, why would

[00:59:30] You choose him from the marketing branding perspective? It’s just absolute genius company for me. I’m not talking about the product. I mean, I don’t. I have a Red Bull if I’ve had a super late night and I need to wake up the next day. But it’s not about the product, but it’s about the marketing. Once I was doing a lecture and I do not advise this man at midnight, I decided I was going to change the whole structure of the lecture. I was lecturing the next day and I went from midnight to four a.m., changing it all and I was speaking at nine a.m. and so I couldn’t sleep and I must have slept for like one hour, whatever it was. So I got to the lecture and I thought, I’m going to have a Red Bull. So I had had a Red Bull, and then I thought, I have another Red Bull. I had a second Red Bull and oh, my goodness me what I did. I was running so fast I could stop myself every time I started talking because I’d be so interested in. There must have been someone listening today as to who was in the audience that day because it was just obvious something was up, man. Okay. Oh yeah. So the product? Not really, but the brand gone.

[01:00:50] Chris, you know, I really about think about something. I want to say something really boring and save me here.

[01:00:58] So again, someone else?

[01:01:00] Someone else, what business wise you’re asking

[01:01:03] Whatever dinner party.

[01:01:06] And I’d say. You know what, I’m a big football fan, right? So I just kind of say as an idol like, you know, there’s just kind of somebody that you idolised would be Diego Maradona. So obviously, like if I could, I’m actually met Maradona, you know, once, right? And I’ve got I’ve got an Argentina top signed by him, right? It’s funny, actually. So I when I was in, yeah, when I was in my secondary school, I went to there, used to be this tournament. I think it still goes on, but I think they’ve changed the name, right? But at the time, it was the Barclays ATP Masters tournament over at the O2 Arena. Top eight players in the world, right? And I went watch my cousin and they had an advert on the screen, right? And they were like, Oh, we’re looking for this age range of, you know, kids to kind of be ball kids at the tournament. And I was like, I have paid no attention to them. My cousin was like, Look, you should really do this right? And I was like, No, I don’t want to be a ball kid like my mates can take the mix right? Anyway, I actually went to the trial, did it and everything like that, and I managed to get selected and I actually got into doing it for that top eight players in the world. So I met like Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, all these guys. And it was an amazing experience, right? One day, yeah, one day you know how you’ve got like courtside tickets and whatnot. We had like loads of people like, I think Kieran Read was there one day we had Kevin Spacey, one day we had it was the other one. So obviously Maradona was there, right? And when you have six people on the court at any one time, right, in terms of actually doing the ball, the ball kids sort of stuff, right? But you’ve got people that are in the same ball kids, but you’ve got a group of them who sit like in between the court and obviously the crowd.

[01:02:42] So like if the ball goes into the crowd or you retrieve the ball and stuff. So at one point I was like sat right in front of where Maradona was sat with his group, entourage, whatnot, and I turned around. I was like, Oh, my days, that is actually Diego Maradona, right? So I told my cousin, and obviously, you know, O2 Arena is not too far from us. So he was like, All right, he’s probably going to be there for the rest of the week or a couple of days. So he brought an Argentina top the next day and next day I was doing the same thing. I was sat literally where he was sat like just in front of him. So like, there’s this time where there’s like an interchange where you like to have a break and the other kids come on to like, roll on or whatnot. And at that point, I just literally pulled up the Argentina top and I just said to him, Can you sign this? And he was like, No. And then I just begged him and he was like, on it. So you signed it for me. And it was just madness is absolute madness. And obviously after that managed to see him one more time. But that was like surreal. Like, you know, when you actually see somebody that you completely idolise, especially as a big football fan. So that was that was super cool.

[01:03:40] I bet Maradona would be a fun guest at the party as well.

[01:03:43] Yeah, life of the party.

[01:03:46] How much he’s going to eat. But yeah, fungus party. Chris, I’ll give you one more chance, Chris.

[01:03:57] And I’m a leader with a similar story, but, you know, I’ve actually stayed in the same hotel is as messy and the whole of the blasted team in 2008. Yeah, if I could just sit down and communicate and have a conversation with him or Renaldo. It would be amazing. Somebody like that is obviously again just built different and made it to the top. And just obviously so dedicated and and motivated and inspiring lots of people. Well, even somebody like to be honest, somebody like like Federer or something with his branding and everything that he’s achieved outside of tennis is amazing how he’s built a whole brand. And I think he’s made something stupid, like 1.5 billion off the court, something silly like that outside of tennis and just learning how these people can can be at the top of the sport and also on the top of monetising the other aspects of it, the business side of things. It would be really cool to sit down with somebody like that and just find out how their mind works, how the brain works.

[01:04:58] I like that. But finally, we got something it something for me to do the party guys. Our time’s coming to an end. Just tell us the Kaizen Dental coordinates. But if I want to see what guys and Dental is about, what do I do?

[01:05:13] Is it on Instagram? Yeah. Instagram If you go on to the website closing Dental codec and on there you can sign up to the soon to be updated mailing list format. But for now, Instagram is obviously the main format and then soon tick. I think we’ve actually got a tick tock page, but we haven’t put anything out there, so you guys can call Payman to manage that.

[01:05:34] Yeah, yeah. I’ve got a guy managing and managing hours, and I’m still not happy. It’s interesting with Instagram. It’s obvious where Dental Instagram is, where TikTok is not yet obvious exactly what it should be. I find it super exciting because you can define what it is. You know, you can. You can play with different formats and things. So Kaizen Chi Z, I said, N, that’s it. Dental, guys. Have a look at that. It’s been a pleasure to have you. I’m not going to ask the usual Prav famous end of anything. Question puts you on your deathbed. You guys are way too young for that question. The one time I date would ask that question because usually I quite look forward to that question. But you know, the dinner party thing helped me because I know, I know you’re going to be making lots of waves in the future. And a lot of times, you know, it’s nice to when you get to that future. Yeah, I always try and help the ones below you as are. Yeah, you know, we’re professional. We were. In the end, you know, we used to be hairdressers and and what is it that apprentices and all that, but that that’s why they call it practising dentistry because we need to help each other. Isn’t it

[01:06:55] Something absolutely

[01:06:57] Lovely to have you guys on?

[01:06:59] Thanks to Payman,

[01:07:02] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:07:18] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to

[01:07:28] Say and what our

[01:07:29] Guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:05] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki,

[00:00:22] Welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast, today is going to be a solo episode just myself talking about the topic of contextual, congruent see what it means, how it applies in everyday life business and why I truly believe is the is the essence of success in our businesses. It’s a topic that I’m passionate about. It’s a topic or a subject matter that I coach a lot of my clients of. It’s a subject matter that I seem to be having conversations with sales teams, my own sales teams and those that I’m working with every single day. And what does it mean? So contextual congruence? It’s all about communication that has context and that is congruent with previous conversations. So it’s about communication that’s easy to understand, and it’s the easiest way for me to describe it. And I’m going to follow it up with some examples and how it applies to sales and marketing in dentistry, but for just take everyday life. You know, I was sat here in my office where I’m recording this podcast now, and I was deep in some work. I was putting together a flowchart for the strategy of the exit of a dental practise. And as I was doing that, there was loads of things I was thinking about, which was finance, sales, marketing, you know, people hate chat, et cetera, et cetera. And my wife burst into the office and says to me, So what did she say? Noah painted the picture of where I am right now, and I’m definitely not in that conversation, so I look up, and the first thing that goes through to my mind is give us a clue.

[00:02:04] What did you say about what and when? Notice there was no context there, apart from the fact that she’s talking about a female and she’s asking about what she said. So I asked those questions What what? What are you talking about? Who are you talking about? Our daughter, of course, because earlier that day, my daughter had had a bike stolen at university. She was upset. She rang me. We had a conversation. We said we were going to sort it out and that was the end of that story. I haven’t spoken to my wife since then. She knew I was speaking to my daughter. So the context in her head was very much revolving around the conversation that I had with my daughter. I was in a different world. The had she walks into the office and said. Excuse me, Prav. She’s never going to say my wife’s never going to say, excuse me, Prav, who am I trying to kid? But if she walks into my office and just said, So what happened with Simone’s bike? Is she OK? Then I’ll be able to fulfil that conversation and to be congruent and context to it. Let’s say context in a different manner, we can say the same word in different ways, and it can mean completely different things.

[00:03:24] So let’s take bollocks, for example. I could be I could be referring to my anatomy. I could equally be saying, Oh dear, I’ve just messed up. I could be saying to somebody, You’re telling lies. Have you noticed all the context of just that? One word can mean several different things. And so why is it in our everyday communications with patients, with our team members when we’re talking about finance strategy, whatever that is, that, you know, the difference elements of running your business? Why is it that we don’t always communicate with context and we expect the people that we’re communicating with to be mind readers, we send emails with subject lines that are totally unrelated to the topic that you’re conversing with. You know, I always make a habit of if I’m sending an email to somebody, I always make sure it’s been a rule that I’ve set in place. Always make sure that the subject line is relevant to what I’m talking about, or I’ll change the subject line if I’m continuing a thread. Why is it that we burst into a middle of a conversation when we blurt out what’s going on in our head and expects that person to be in the zone and for that message to be totally congruent with what’s in your head? And I think a lot of this relates to sales and marketing. So let me paint a picture for you.

[00:04:56] Let’s imagine that I’m a patient and I’m going to I’m going to step into this patient shoes and describe the problem that they’re experienced and what I what I try and say to my clients or coach my clients around this whatever scenario you find yourself in. Step into that person’s shoes. So if you’ve got an issue that you want to discuss with a nurse, with an associate, with a team member, whether it’s a difficult conversation you want to have or whether it’s just a normal conversation, just take a step back step into that person’s shoes, map out the situation, and I promise you that the conversation that you have with them will be completely different to the reactive nature of what’s about to come out of your mouth. So I’m this patient, I digress, I’m this patient, I’m a prospective patient, I’m not a patient yet, right? So let’s just map this story about out about Prav, a 70 year old loose Dental euro. I’ve been wearing the same set of dentures for 15 years. Every morning, when I wake up, I whack some glue on them. I pop them in and I pray they’re going to stick in place. I hope that nobody notices my false or fake teeth, even though they look terrible. I walk around with my hand over my mouth. A dream about the possibility of tucking into. An apple. Also to food or a crusty bigot, and I know that’s not happened for a long time, and it’s unlikely to happen any time soon.

[00:06:39] So I blend most of my food. I chop a lot of it up into small pieces, and I definitely turn down every single invite to a social event through fear of my Dental slipping out. I’ve got a tube of Dental glue that I carry with me wherever I go in my glove box, in my side compartment just in case of an emergency. And every time somebody is having a conversation with me, I’m talking to myself and I’m thinking, are they looking at my dentures? What do they think about my dentures? Are they turned off by my dentures? And it is a constant in every single thought process and it creates anxiety. I lack self-confidence, and I just become essentially a social recluse. I end up avoiding situations. I say no to family parties. Have you got the picture? Do you know where I am right now? So we’ve painted that picture and we’ve stepped into Prav shoes. The loose denture wearer who’s not got a great life and it’s consumed around these loose dentures that is fearful of slipping out and its impact in his self-image. And one day Prav is scrolling through Facebook and on this feed, there’s a ray of sunshine that pops out of there. And somehow, by magic, Facebook have figured out that I’m a loose denture wearer because they know more about me than everyone else, and they’ve been spying on my conversations and through their algorithm, they’ve figured out that I’m down on my luck with my loose dentures.

[00:08:22] And this advert pops up and it says attention. Denture wearers, the Dental Sweet are offering complimentary consultations with Dr. Bahagi. Implant surgeon with over twenty five years experience in helping loose denture wearers transform their smiles, giving them the ability to bite into an apple again, enjoy life to the full with confidence. In the space of a couple of appointments, Dr. Bihari. Complaisant implants in your mouth and secure a solid set of fixed teeth in place, you can throw the denture glue away and not have to worry about that and live your best life. Dr. Behera has got over three hundred positive five star Google reviews from denture patients whose lives he’s transformed and is healing, and he is incredibly. Gentle and an expert with phobic nervous patients. Book your complimentary consultation today by clicking the Apply Now button below. So you got the picture this Prav, he’s down on his look and look, I’m going to be repeating this process all the way through. I know it sounds obvious, but it will make sense when we get to the end. So this Prav, he’s down on his luck. Is this loose denture wearer with all these problems? And he’s just seen a ray of sunshine on his phone, so he clicks the apply now button. What happens next? He gets directed to the home page of a website, and that website says the Dental Suite, we transform Smales.

[00:10:11] Here are some testimonials. Here’s our mission statement and this is everything about us. There’s a phone number at the top and these testimonials from patients who’ve had Invisalign and cosmetic bonding and blah blah blah. What’s just happened? I’ll tell you what’s just happened. You’ve lost me. You’ve lost that patient because when I clicked on that button, I wanted to do a few things. The first thing that I wanted to do was claim my free consultation. The second thing I wanted to do is learn about how you can help me. Changed my life through implant dentistry. And the third thing I wanted to do is meet my hero, Dr. Bahari, who’s got 25 years of experience and 300 Google reviews, and he’s really good with general patients. But the message got lost because you sent me to a page about your clinic that is not congruent with the marketing message. So what’s the alternative that we click on the Apply Now button and you send me to a page and that page has a picture of my saviour there, Dr. Bahari. And it says twenty five plus years experience in transforming the lives of Dental wear loose denture wearers. Below, there’s a graphic that says 300 plus five star Google reviews, and there’s half a dozen of the positive Google reviews. And every single one of those Google reviews refers to something like denture glue ditching my old dentures.

[00:11:44] I’ve got a perfect new set of teeth now I can finally buy into an apple. After 20 years, Dr. Bajaria was so gentle. It was worth every penny. There’s a concept form at the top of that page that says, Meet Dr. Bahala today and claim your free consultation invited me to input my name, my email address, my mobile number, and maybe give them a little bit more information about what it is that I’m looking for. Can you say how just having that one step thought through in terms of context and congruence, we can have a massive impact on the success of your marketing campaigns. Now, often the marketing message that somebody clicks on and where they go to next are not 100 percent congruent. The match of that congruence makes a massive difference in me as a potential patient willing to hand over my personal details of my contact information. Seeing that social proof on that landing page that. Alludes to the fact that you’ve got the reviews and things like that photographs before enough, there’s video testimonials. Let’s go back to the story. So I click. I fill out the form, I hand over my personal details and I click send and automagically my personal details now end up in the inbox of your reception team sales team TKO, whoever’s going to get that next and we’re going to go and move over to that story in a second.

[00:13:30] But as I click that button, it takes me to a London a thank you page. And that thank you post says thank you for your enquiry, a member of our team will be in touch shortly. Perfectly normal. Absolutely fine. How could we elevate that experience for me to make sure that communication is contextually congruent? Well, we could show a message on that page that says thank you for your enquiry. You have now taken the first step to getting rid of your loose dentures and having a perfectly beautiful, solid set of teeth where you can finally eat the foods you once enjoyed. Instead of a member of our team will be in touch with, you know, the team member, Becky will call you shortly to book your complimentary consultation with Dr. Bihari. In the meantime, feel free to read. Some of our Google reviews and watch our testimonial videos below. Can you see what’s just happened there? The message on the landing page? The Thank You page, the advert are all completely congruent. You have kept me 100 percent engaged. So let’s take the next step of that journey. My contact details have landed in the inbox if your receptionist. So what happens next? Your receptionist says, Oh, it’s an implant enquiry. Ok, I’m going to send him an email. Fine, absolutely fine. So what is in that email? Well. It’s a template we send an implant template to our implant patients.

[00:15:24] We send an Invisalign template to our Invisalign patients and we treat everyone exactly the same. It’s a copy paste blind process where we send the same old stuff out to everyone. And the nature of that email is something like this. Hello. Thank you for enquiring about dental implants here at the Dental Suite. We offer many different types of dental implants and treatment starts from two thousand five hundred pounds. Dental implants are the perfect solution to replacing missing teeth. And if you’d like to book a free consultation, please call us back on this number and I’d be delighted to get you booked in. And it doesn’t matter whether, if got loose, dentures are missing a single tooth. I need a three to bridge or whatever it is, we’re all getting a stock answer. Guess what’s just happened? Then you’ve lost me. Because when I pressed that button, when I read that out, when I was on that landing page, when I read that thank you message, everything was about my loose dentures. Fixing that problem? Give me a solid set of implanted teeth. Having the ability to buy into and chew into that food for the first time and rejuvenating my confidence. So what do you think that email template should say? Well, first of all, I don’t think it should be a template. I think every single email should have a template basis, should be bespoke, be written for that patient.

[00:17:03] So here’s Prof. I’ve already alluded to the fact that I’ve not chewed into whatever food, I’m nervous. I’m looking forward to booking my free consultation, blah blah blah. And the email goes out and it says. Hi, Prof. Thank you so much for taking the first step towards getting rid of your loose dentures and having a permanent set of fixed teeth so that you can finally enjoy life, get your confidence back and eat the foods that you once loved. We’re really looking forward to meeting you, and Dr. Behera, who’s got over 25 years of experience, will be able to answer all your questions and give you an indication of the approximate costs investment involved at your appointment and in that email. Guess what else is in there before and after case study of a loose denture patient? Meet Sarah. Sarah suffered from loose dentures for over 15 years and after same day teeth treatment implant assisted denture treatment. Whatever it was, she’s now finally able to attend the parties that she wants avoid. She’s got a new lease of confidence, but most importantly, she can bite into crusty baguettes again. Wow. Louis just happened. The message was totally congruent, right from the ad that let a little reassurance sunshine into my life through to the landing page through so the thank you page through to the email I received. And guess what happens next? My sales team pick up the phone because they’ve got my mobile number.

[00:18:46] When they pick up that phone, it goes straight through to voicemail and they leave a message, something like this. Hi, Prav is Becky from the Dental. Sorry? I’m just calling with regards to your Dental implant enquiry. I’ll try you again in a few days time or feel free to call me back. Both phone goes down. Perfectly polite. Perfectly normal. Nothing wrong with that communication. But you’ve lost me again. There’s no congruence. See, there’s no context. In fact, the only congruence in context is your Dental implant enquiry. I’ve got loose dentures. I want to replace my loose dentures with a solid set of fixed teeth. I want to meet my hero. Dr. Behera, who has placed thousands of implants over twenty five years of experience, has got a truckload of positive Google reviews. So let’s change that conversation, and let’s make sure that we’ve got voicemail training in our practise so that every single voicemail that is left for that patient is congruent with every piece of communication they’ve had from our practise so far. So they pick up the phone and it goes a little something like this. Hi, Prav, is Becky from the Dental Suite. Thanks for enquiring about fixing your loose dentures with implanted teeth. I’ll put your name down for a free consultation with Dr. Bahari. We’ve got a limited number of slots, but I’ve reserved you one of them and I’m really looking forward to getting you booked in.

[00:20:23] I’m guessing you’re busy right now, but feel free to give me a call back on this number and we’ll get you booked in. By the way, don’t forget to visit our Facebook page where you’ll see loads of reviews or our Google go to our Google page. We see loads of reviews. Watch some of our video testimonials and take a look at the email I’ve just sent you. Speak to you soon. Bye. Ok. Context, loose dentures, the problem, the solution, the social proof has made its way from that advert to the landing page to the thank you page to the voicemail. Ok. What happens if they picked up the phone and spoke to me? Well, the concept of sales, trading and telephone training is it’s a whole nother topic in itself. But without going into the ins and outs of the questions that you ask the patients to build the rapport and what you should say on the phone and what you shouldn’t say on the phone, the conversation needs to go a little bit like the voicemail. Hi Prav, thank you for your enquiry regarding loose dentures. I can see that you’ve suffered with this problem for a long time, and I’m really sorry to hear about it. The great news is Dr. Bahari has treated hundreds of patients just like you, and I’m sure you’ve had the time to read through, you know, several of these hundreds of Google reviews from loose denture patients whose lives is transformed.

[00:21:53] We’re really looking forward to helping you like with help lots of others bite into an apple crusty bread for the first time, but more importantly, just having the confidence to live life like you deserve to. I’m going to book you in for that free consultation, so when you come and meet Dr. Bahari, you can ask him all the questions you want. You’ll get an indication of what your costs are, Payman plans and things like that. A mobile queue in the conversation was incredibly congruent. There was no beating around the we talked about the loose dentures, we talked about the social proof, we talked about Dr Behera. Yeah. And we sell in the US in every conversation that we’re having with patients or do we try and get the conversation out of the way where we pick up the phone and say, Hi, just ringing it, just ring in regards to your dental implant. All right. Ok. Just wanted a bit of information. There you go. Whoa. Where was the twenty five years experience? Where’s the conversation about Google reviews? Where’s the, you know, we are the most caring, gentle practise in the Wild West is gone. We’ve worked so hard to get there, but we don’t use it right. And so the conversation needs to be incredibly congruent. Imagine now province booked for that consultation. What happens next? I get an email in a text message saying Your appointment at the Dental Suite is on the 16th of November at 5pm.

[00:23:25] Boom, job done. Or do I get a customised email that says something along the lines of Hi Prav, we’re really looking forward to meeting you and helping you with your loose dentures? The number of solutions that Dr. Baha is going to talk to you about on the day, but here are just the main two implant assisted removal implanted dentures or fixed teeth, permanently fixed teeth. Both of them will give the ability to be able to chew into an apple bite into crusty bread and smile with unbelievably lifelike natural teeth again. If you’ve got any questions for Dr. Behera, write him down and we look forward to meeting you soon. P.s., Please watch Sara’s story before whose life was transformed with implant retained dentures and an embed of a video. The communications congruent the Martin message is congruent the conversation about the USPS are congruent. Yeah, and it’s all these little micro details and communication that make me more likely to transact with you because believe it or not. The day that Prav jumped on his phone and looked on Facebook and saw your advert, guess what Facebook did to me? They chucked me the adverts of another five clinics because had already transacted on that. Facebook knew what my behaviour was and what I was looking for. So they gave me choice and they gave me the practise next door and they gave me another press and they gave me another practise and I filled out all those forms.

[00:25:11] But their messages weren’t congruent, their voicemails weren’t congruent, their landing pages weren’t congruent. So I’m sticking with you. I turn up for my consultation. When I’m welcomed into the practise, the conversation I have with the person at front desk relates to Dental and my loose dentures and that ray of sunshine and dots of Buhari. Does the person who walks me? From the way in area or the lounge or whatever you like, which you want to give it and escorts me into the practise. Talk about Dr. Behera. Is the conversation something like this? How are you going to be in the best possible hands? Dr. Bahari is the best around here at helping patients with loose dentures. You’re really lucky that we’re looking forward. Oh, here he is now. Dr. Bauer, there you go. How am I going to feel at that point? Yeah, I’m going to feel in awe of this person. And then this person has a consultation with me that revolves around my key issues and key problems. Where is that information? As a surgeon or a dentist, isn’t it incredibly valuable when I look in the patient’s nose before that patient walks through the door, but I’ve got an indication of what’s been discussed with that patient. What were their key problems? In fact, a copy of their enquiry from the marketing details of costs that were discussed with that patient or the consultations that had what their idea of cheap and expensive this there were all these clues that patients give us during conversations with us that are so incredibly valuable to the dentist delivering the consultation.

[00:26:56] And most of the time they do not make their way through to the surgery for that, for that conversation to stay congruent. I hope by the end of this, you guys have got an idea of why congruence, the contextual congruence is so important just in this little story. But in everyday business, when you’re talking to your accountant, when you’re giving a team member a set of instructions, when you’re delegating to a team member, you can’t just say to somebody. Go and do this because when you’re delegating to somebody go and do this, and this means I want this, this, this and this by this time. And what successful looks like is this and how I want to report, how I want you to report back to me is to send me an email on Friday detailing this this and this, this context, this controversy, it comes back to you. And we went. Now, one of the biggest problems in executing successful marketing campaigns is the lack of this congruence. And I think through numerous conversations with clients that we either just simply consult with and provide marketing consultancy, but we don’t deliver the services.

[00:28:21] Our clients and teams that we work with on a regular basis is that sales and marketing are almost like two separate entities. I mean, I’ve worked with corporates and other bigger businesses where sales are marketing live in different buildings. Now they’re so interconnected that I think it’s a crime for sales and marketing, not to be one department. But how many of your receptionists, your CEOs and your sales team have read every single advert that is out there have looked and analysed every landing page, every thank you page have crafted the emails that sits alongside those to make sure everything is congruent because often when I’m training sales teams, why tend to see is that they don’t even know what adverts are out there. They don’t know what their employment offer is. And so to expect them to have a congruent sales conversation, they’re already handicapped. And so if there’s one piece of advice I can give to any practise stroke business owner is Murray, the sales and marketing team, so they amalgamate into one. And your success will go through the roof. And I think that’s it, really, if you’ve got any questions about sales and marketing, if you’ve got any questions that revolve around contextual congruence, more importantly and how that can impact your business, feel free to shoot me a question. You can visit my website Prav. Prav. Com And just submit a question through there, and I’ll be happy to answer any questions you guys have got around that subject matter or topic.

[00:30:17] This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:30:33] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

[00:00:00] The other thing is, I’m a complete course junkie, and I never stop going on courses, and I think people sometimes tell me off, we’re going on so many courses, but I genuinely think you’ll learn something new from every single course that you go on and you get to a point where you don’t come away. Having learnt massive things, you might just learn tiny things like I remember going on Andy McLean’s course and I was probably one of the oldest people there, like it was full of people who were two or three years out of uni. But I admire his clinical skills so much and the beautiful work that he’s been like creating for years. So I was like, I’m sure there’s I’m sure I’ll learn stuff and I did, and I came away having learnt, you know, two or three kind of titbits that I then use. I still use. Sometimes I’ll, you know, I’ll hold myself, let’s discus an ankle and be like, Oh, that was that was how Andy McLean said, You should hold yourself like this. So I think sometimes people get a bit too kind of proud to carry on learning. And certainly I found it quite interesting. Like, I still go on courses even though I’m now involved. I’m privileged. I’m really lucky that I’m involved in teaching on some courses, but that doesn’t stop me going on courses and sometimes I’ll go on a course. And the people teaching, of course, are a bit shocked that I’m there and they sort of almost feel like I’m their spying. And I’m not. I’m just eager to keep learning. So I think keep learning and never be too proud to keep learning, I think is a key point. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[00:01:42] It’s my pleasure to welcome Jasmine Piran on to the podcast. Jasmine, sir, actually, I’ve known her for 10, 15 years now, probably came to my attention when she became one of my good friends associates. Uchenna Okoye is associate. But since then, she’s she’s moved on and got her own private practise in the West End and become a lecturer and so forth. So lot’s happened since I first met you, Jasmine. But lovely to have you on the show. Thank you. You usually start these things with the sort of the back story. You know, how did you grow up? What kind of a kid were you? Why did you become a dentist?

[00:02:20] Ok, so I grew up in London, west London, Ealing only child. So no siblings. People always think that means I must be spoilt. I just think I just had all the pressure on me. I don’t think I wasn’t spoilt. But yeah, as as an adult, I’ve definitely got much better at sharing. So as a child, probably being an only child, I wasn’t great with sharing, but I ended up going into dentistry because my father, who is Iranian, was very kind of academically focussed, I would say. And he felt in his great wisdom that it would be a great career choice for me because it combines science and art. So he kind of decided that that was where my strengths were. So that was kind of the path that I took, and I think I kind of got into I worked with in dentistry, even as a teenager. I was working as a dental nurse while I was doing my A-levels just to kind of get into the the kind of profession, and it was going to help me get into university and things like that. So I kind of had a bit of a head start in that sense and without really knowing it at the time. That work experience throughout my kind of A-levels and undergrad years helped to kind of shape my career, I guess, and I ended up moving into private practise quite quickly as a result. I think

[00:03:37] So that dentists

[00:03:38] Know people always ask me that, no, he wasn’t a dentist. He just decided it was a good career choice. And what did he do? He was an engineer, so he was in mechanical engineering, and then he worked in I.T. and he did some lecturing at Imperial College and things like that. So he was very academic.

[00:03:55] And, you know, was there a tension with regards to doing what your dad said? Or were you always going to do that?

[00:04:01] Probably as a teenager, you know, you like to be rebellious. I think this number of years on, I have to I have to bow to his wisdom and realise that he was right. He obviously knew me much better than I knew myself. So, yeah, I think he was absolutely right. The combination of kind of science and art that we are privileged enough to kind of combine within what we do, I think is is very unique. And yeah, we’re very lucky.

[00:04:28] So what would you have done if he hadn’t have said that? What was your goal?

[00:04:31] I think I used to say I really wanted to do languages or I really liked drama like all of these sorts of things. But he was very much of the opinion that it’s a good idea to have direction and focus, and we used to play squash. So we were at the squash club quite a lot and all of the chaps at the squash club who used to be at the bar at 4pm or 5pm on Friday. They were all dentists. So my dad back then came to the conclusion. Sadly, it doesn’t apply to us anymore. But he came to the conclusion that if you were a dentist, then you’re going to have great work life balance. You can be your own boss, you can work great hours, you can go and play golf on Fridays, things like that. So.

[00:05:08] So you studied the guys I read. Yes. Yes. What was that experience like? How do you tell me about the first day you arrived at Guy’s hospital? Were you disillusioned or were you? How are you feeling?

[00:05:23] I was absolutely petrified and I was in the first cohort that was merged with Kings, I remember. So it was all really, really strange. And, you know, there was a huge year group.

[00:05:33] Yeah, how many? How many were you?

[00:05:36] I think it was about one hundred and forty five. And it was just they weren’t used to it. So the previous years had been 80 or 90. And then suddenly there were that many of us. So there was a lot of kind of, I guess, frustration amongst older groups because they didn’t want the merger. And there was a lot of kind of chaos in our year group because a lot of the kind of academic side of things was just it was just set up for smaller year groups and they were trying to send us a different sites, obviously. So we went to the Denmark Hill campus. We weren’t the guys campus, but we’d all applied to individual schools. So some of us had applied to guys and some of us had applied to kings. So that was all a bit interesting at the beginning. And guys, I’d say it was a really interesting place to train because you’ve got a lot of clinical experience compared to many of the other schools. But I actually found it really unfriendly place, and it was quite a hard place to be an undergrad. I would say

[00:06:27] Unfriendly how I mean, my brother studied there and he’s a medick, though, and he was he was a bit sort of taken aback by the sort of the. Rugby culture and this sort of thing was, is that is that the kind of thing?

[00:06:40] So it’s a definitely for medicks. I think it was. What year was your brother there?

[00:06:44] My 88 to ninety three?

[00:06:48] Yes. So my understanding is that in that area, it was very much kind of there was a very strong rugby culture. So when I went, there was still that strong rugby culture, but also so I would say, certainly for the dentist, it was very cliquey and everyone was in their little cliques and it was often determined by. And this is going to sound really strange. But ethnicity? Yeah. So people hung around with each other kind of according to where they were from, kind of in terms of their family backgrounds. And so I didn’t I never really felt like I completely fitted in on either side.

[00:07:20] Yeah, I’m glad. I’m glad you brought that up because that’s real. That’s real. We’ve we’ve we’ve actually never talked about that on this podcast, but in Dental School. Well, back in our day, who knows now, but back in our day, certainly those were the way the cliques were set up. It was along ethnic lines. And so so you didn’t fit in with the Indians and you didn’t fit in with the British. Is that what you’re saying? Exactly. So what did you do? Did you navigate both or neither?

[00:07:48] I guess I try to navigate both. I ended up into collating actually. So in my third year, I left that year group and I did an escalated B.S. in psychology, which was fascinating and life changing for many reasons. And then I joined. So then I ended up joining a completely new year that was already established. They’d already spent the first two years of their degree together. Yeah. But there were lovely people. It’s just that. I think because it was such a big year group, you ended up feeling quite isolated if you weren’t already part of a big group, I would say.

[00:08:19] Yeah, of course. And how did the psychology work sort of give you sort of insight? Did is it, as you would imagine, from from an outsider?

[00:08:28] I did my research on dealing with nervous Dental patients and communication styles and things like that. Yeah. So it was kind of relevant. And then I would say I probably used a lot of that learning on a day to day basis in my practise. Now I do see a lot of nervous patients and a lot of nervous patients refer their nervous friends and family to me as well.

[00:08:48] So I would say it helps for me. You know, if you’re good with nervous patients, that’s for me more important than if you have an MSC in restorative dentistry, from the from the from the attracting patients perspective, and I really don’t think enough people realise it. How important a painless injection is. I think as a dentist, if you can give painless injections and you can talk to people, you’ll be OK. He really will. And although they emphasise how to handle nervous patients in uni, I don’t think enough people realise how important that aspect is until, you know, when it comes home to you, when you need something done yourself. I don’t know about other people, but I’m a little bit needle phobic. It turns out I’m very happy to give injections, but I don’t like getting them, and I remember my wife’s very good with nervous patients. People travel from distances to see her, and once she gave me this ID block that I did not feel at all, at all, and I’d be in a Dental at that point, I’d been a dentist for 15 years or something and it suddenly came home to me, right? All those times do I push that plunger in and the amount of damage psychologically I’ve done? And I was one of these dentists who wanted to give the very best service and and make sure people tell other people about me and all of this. And I hadn’t realised that all I had to do was figure out how to give a painless injection, and loads of people would have told other people about me. It’s not emphasised enough. Did you go on a call or you went to hypnotherapy? Course I.

[00:10:29] Yes. So OK. So so I did my psychology degree, and then I qualified from dental school and then I, you know, became a self-confessed Dental course post-grad junkie. But then I came across something called NLP, which is neuro linguistic programming. And I found that fascinating, and it kind of linked up really well with my psychology degree. And then I did NLP and hypnotherapy, and I did a separate course in it with hypnotherapy as well, which is again, it’s just another kind of string to your bow, really. It just helps. I think it helps with your communication style, even if you’re not using kind of actual hypnosis, which I don’t tend to in my Dental appointments. But I probably use hypnotic sort of speaking patterns in terms of making people feel or helping them to feel really kind of comfortable and at ease. I would say so. It’s about a communication style.

[00:11:20] If you’re not, you’re not. You’re not saying to someone, Oh, I’m now going to hypnotise you. It’s just it’s just the rhythm of your voice.

[00:11:27] Yeah, just because a lot of it, a lot of what you learn when you’re studying hypnotherapy is communication style. So it’s language patterns and sort of tonal patterns within your voice. So those sorts of things can have a huge impact on how the person is feeling when they’re in the chair. I find anyway, so it really helps.

[00:11:46] And look, I’m no expert, but from the NLP part of things, my understanding of NLP is that some people are auditory, some people are visual, some people are. Is it feeling kinaesthetic? So that’s one thing. And there was this sort of weird thing about mirroring each other. And if you lean forward or lean forward and yeah, and your eye movements, you know, up into the right, wow. So, you

[00:12:10] Know, loads Payman. Yeah.

[00:12:12] Oh yeah, that’s quite not that. That’s all I you. I’ve just told you everything I do.

[00:12:17] So it’s about so people take it to all sorts of lengths and they do all sorts of weird and wonderful things with it. And some people are a bit unethical with it. And some people become a little bit, I would say, over the top with it. But actually, if you just take the good little bits from it, it can really, really have a positive impact. So what you’re talking about mirroring, that’s about achieving rapport. Yeah. So it’s how you can help someone to feel completely comfortable and at ease very quickly is by getting into rapport with them. And one of the ways that you can get into report is by matching and mirroring. Maybe their stance, maybe their kind of their body language, things like that, understanding how people kind of receive information from the surroundings. That’s the other thing you mentioned. So in terms of do they receive things more visually? Do they receive things more by sound or they kinaesthetic, which is where they’re, you know, for example, if you give someone explanation about things like, for example, having a line of treatment, Invisalign, right? Do they need to see a photo of how it looks on a person to understand how it’s going to work? Or do you need to give them an eyeliner so they can actually physically hold it? And is that how they then kind of like get in touch with the process and kind of start imagining it in their own body? Does that make sense?

[00:13:29] So it makes sense. But how do you how can you tell what are the clues?

[00:13:33] Oh gosh, there’s so many clues, so words that the people use. So do you see what I mean? Yeah. Solanki says that would be quite visual. Does that sound quite logical? Yeah, they might be kind of more auditory. Do they ask, for example, is the first thing they asked me, How does it feel when you’re wearing the aligners? Does it hurt? They might be more kinaesthetic. Are they visible? Is it going to show or am I going to look like a schoolgirl wearing braces at the age of 40? They’re probably more visual. So all of those things, but also I think one thing that really, really is so important with these things is not to pigeonhole people, because so often when you have a psychology background, people kind of when they find out they just think that you’re constantly analysing them. And I think the key to these things is not to be that person, so not to be constantly trying to pigeonhole and analyse people, but just to have an understanding of the fact that everyone’s different. So if you only ever use your own preferred kind of communication style, you’re only really going to be speaking to about a third of the population. You have to mix it up a bit and appreciate that people receive messages on different levels, and then you have to kind of be able to, I guess, moderate how you communicate accordingly.

[00:14:48] Well, it’s interesting. I mean, some people take it to the next level of having the the team. The staff work out the answer to that question before you even meet the patient. And I think Barry often will say something about that, which is which sounds good. But but it does. It does ring true in a way, doesn’t it? For me? I mean, this has nothing to do with it. But you know, when you read a book twice or you watch a movie twice and on two different occasions, the same person, same content, but you take them totally differently based on what you’re where you’re at in your life at that particular moment. Yes. Yeah, I can see that that that can be a big factor. All right. So you’re good with nervous patients, you’re good with people. Yeah, I know.

[00:15:34] I like to think I’m good with people. I think it’s probably one of my strengths is that I’m relatively good with people. You mentioned Barry. Barry was my vet trainer. Yeah. So he had a he had a big impact on my, especially my early career. But I still I still consider him a really good friend and mentor. He’s my patient as well, so he comes to see me through treatment. But also, like I massively respect him both clinically. He’s a fantastic clinician, but also personally, I’d say he’s a really good guy and I love. We came across an op together at the same time, so we did our early NLP training with the same trainer over here. And then later we both ended up going to the states to do our later training with the same trainer there as well. So.

[00:16:21] Wow. Yeah. So I’ve always thought your first boss is such an important thing because it really puts you on a on a particular trajectory. We had my first boss on about four shows about a goat, Nick Mahindra. He’s a great friend and he really had a massive influence on the way I look at different things now. All right, so that was your vet. What was your first real job after that?

[00:16:44] So that was beat. I stayed on part time with Barry, even though it was miles. So the funny thing is, I’ve always been very London centric and everyone makes fun of me about the fact that I’m quite London centric.

[00:16:55] So I’m proper Iranian Iranian girl, isn’t it?

[00:16:57] That’s why I don’t. Maybe, yeah, I just I don’t get a very long contract. My So Barry’s clinic was in Hazel Meir, which was a whole like 50 miles out of London. So I used to live there like four days a week Monday to Thursday. And then by Thursday I just had to come back home. So I’d be back in London. But I stayed on like a couple of days a week just because it was such a lovely practise and he had such a great team and it was just amazing. So I stayed there and then I also got a job in Bayswater, so I was working a few days a week in Bayswater for a lovely guy called Ron Dunn. He’s retired now, but he’s such a nice man. I learnt so much from him. So, yeah, I worked for him and then within a year of finishing my vet. In fact, six months after finishing Beatty, I somehow landed an associate’s position with Uchenna.

[00:17:47] So how did it come about? Did you just apply it or did someone know someone or how it happen?

[00:17:52] So Barry, being this amazing, forward thinking person that he was, we were on a we used to do loads of courses. We did Chris Barrow. We did actually later. So we were on a course that was being run by an American guy called Bill Blatchford. And so our whole clinic was there. And then you channels clinic was there as well, and someone on my table from my clinic said to me, Oh, I think Uchenna was looking for an associate a few months ago. There was there was an advert within the Chris Barrow Group. So I just went up to her and said, Hi. I heard you were looking for an associate. I’m not sure if you still are. Can I send you my CV? And then I did. And it just it was just fluke. It was luck. She needed someone a day a week because she was taking like reducing hours for a couple of months. So I just started one day a week and then I stayed there for 13 years.

[00:18:37] Wow.

[00:18:39] Obviously, not one day a week. Yeah, full time. But yeah,

[00:18:42] I mean, look, one thing I never did when I was an associate was applied, you know, send us TV or a letter to someone who wasn’t looking. And I think now when I’ve been talking to loads of dentists about it, that seems like that’s quite a common sort of I wouldn’t say common, but for the for the high flyers, anyway, quite quite a common M.O. to just contact places where they want to work.

[00:19:05] So it’s funny you say this Payman because I had a really funny chat with someone on a on a case coffee session literally an hour before this call. So I remember when I was looking for Dental nursing jobs, I remember going through the Yellow Pages. I’m going to make myself sound so old, but the actual physical yellow pages and literally cold calling every single like dental practise that look nice on the yellow pages, especially the ones that had a big advert, you know, the ones who paid extra to have an actual kind of, you know, three line out. I remember cold calling all of them, and that was how I ended up with really good jobs. I was like in private, high end cosmetic dental practises way back, you know, in the late 90s, which was brilliant. So an hour ago, I was on a call with some dentists and this guy said he was looking for an associate position. And I said, Oh, right, how are you going about that then? And he said, I’m Googling and I’m looking up for I’m looking up local clinics that have got five star Google reviews, and that’s who I’m contacting. And I thought, Gosh, how times have changed. I went with yellow or yellow pages, and now they’re just looking for Google reviews. But yeah, it’s a good. It’s a good way of doing it. I guess it’s nothing to be lost there. I think you’ve got to there’s got to be a little bit of hustle factor.

[00:20:16] I think, yeah, you’re right, you’re right. And I guess, you know, working in Dental practises before even going to dentistry, you’ve got a good understanding of what’s a successful place, what’s what’s what are the things you should? I bet you learnt things that you shouldn’t do even before you became a dentist, right?

[00:20:35] Yeah, probably. I think I was probably a dreadful nurse. If I’m honest with you, Payman, I don’t think I was a very good dental nurse.

[00:20:41] But why? Why? Why? Why would you, sir?

[00:20:43] Well, because I never had back then you didn’t have to have formal training. Yeah, it wasn’t like now. So I just got dropped in at the deep end. So, yeah, I was probably the nurse that used to just leave the room at the most inopportune moment, exactly when you need that person to be there and things like that. But no, yeah, it was. It was a great it was a great learning curve. And I know certainly when we because it guys used to start seeing patients from the second year and none of us really felt ready to be actually seeing patients, it was all quite kind of scary. Yeah, but at least I’d been in that kind of chair side environment a lot already. So that helped, I guess.

[00:21:21] And then working with Uchenna, I mean, she’s she’s one of my favourite people I spend. We have a pre-lockdown menu changes to have dinner a couple of times a year just to just to catch up. I really like it, but we’re very, very different as employers. And actually, you know, it’s one of my favourite subjects. Talking to her is and if this situation came up with you, what would you have done about it? Because she’s quite a tough boss, right?

[00:21:49] I’d say she has high standards.

[00:21:52] And and so do you first call? Let me say she has astounded me

[00:21:58] And she always inspired me. She had a massively positive influence on my career and my career pathway and the things that she’s striving for are I agree with, you know, what she wants people to do. I completely agree with whether it’s always easy to find people who will hit those standards. Unfortunately, that’s another story. It feels like they manage it really well in the states, actually, when you go over and do courses in the states and speak to the clinicians over that. They seem to be they seem to manage it. But yeah, I think I always felt really lucky. I think I spent the first few years working there kind of pinching myself that I had that opportunity to be there and I was always waiting for something to happen. I had that real imposter syndrome or, yeah, yeah, she’s going to

[00:22:43] Realise I was she. Was she peaking when, you know, as far as her, her profile back then, there was a moment there where she was the most famous dentist in the country.

[00:22:54] Yeah. So I was there when ten years younger, the first time around when ten years younger was happening. Yeah, yeah. And actually, you know, watching her do that was really inspiring because, you know, people don’t often realise that she has a very, very soft heart and she’s very sensitive as well. So she’s very driven and very focussed, but she’s very, very human and kind of sensitive as well. So I think seeing that happen and watching her be, I think, very brave in putting herself out there to do that was, yeah, it was very inspiring.

[00:23:28] But it was a bit awkward. And every time I’ve been to one of her clinics to that idea of they call them guests, then they didn’t call them patients and the huddle and the way they talk about their patients not knowing so much about them. You know, it’s she was doing that before it was properly fashionable to do. Yeah. And there’s something about her which I don’t know whether you picked up from her or not, but she kind of wants to be different, you know, like her, her angle is if everyone is using these people for their website, I’m definitely not going to use those people. You know, I’m going to use someone from completely outside dentistry, and it’s actually a good way of making progress because, you know, if we just all do the same thing, we’ll end up the same way.

[00:24:14] Definitely. I think Newton is a trailblazer.

[00:24:16] Yeah, exactly what I was looking for.

[00:24:18] I’m not a trailblazer.

[00:24:20] What makes you say that?

[00:24:23] I just I play it safe a bit more, and I’m not quite. I’m not. I can honestly say I don’t think I’m as ambitious and I don’t. I’m not seeing that to put myself down. I’m really happy with where I’m at and what I look for, but I’m not in need of that level of of achievement or kind of constantly progressing. I’m happy, probably. I’m happy aiming for perfection with within my own little world, I think.

[00:24:50] Yeah, I guess it goes down to that sort of lift to work, work to live kind of breakdown.

[00:24:57] No, yes. No, you’re absolutely right. It should do. But if what I’ve said gives you the impression I have good work life balance, then I’m not representing myself well, because I have no work-life balance. So yes, I think you’re right, it does come down to work to what

[00:25:11] Do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean you’ve got you work too much? Is that what you mean?

[00:25:14] Yeah, definitely. But I don’t know. I think we all do at the moment. I think especially since the pandemic. I think as a profession, we’ve just all entered this crazy world of just constantly working.

[00:25:27] And thank goodness for it, right? I mean, it’s

[00:25:32] Coming back to work and we just felt so lucky. I think it was a combination of we felt really lucky to be back at work. We felt kind of quite shocked. There was probably a bit of PTSD on a mild level of having been stopped from working because we could never have imagined a situation where that could happen. And it felt so precious that we and and we felt like any minute the rug could be pulled out from under our feet again. So make hay while you can. Yeah. So and I think, yeah, that’s probably how it’s happened.

[00:25:59] Going going back to that, your dad thing. So did you ever live in Iran or no? I visited, but I’ve never lived there. Yeah. So I remember when my parents kind of I don’t want I don’t want to sound bitter about it when they made me become a dentist. Yeah, they didn’t. It wasn’t. It wasn’t like that.

[00:26:17] But they have is, though, is it? But it is.

[00:26:19] But it is. Yeah. Well, you know, the argument they used was, look, if we were back home, then we wouldn’t be saying this because back home we were fully stable. We knew what we were about. We we were fine. But now that we’re here and I guess it goes down to the same immigrant sort of culture, the notion that people will always need a doctor or dentist or whatever it is. And it’s interesting because I always used to think that, OK, that that didn’t play out in my life until the pandemic when the pandemic happened. Then, 40 years after they. Suggests that it actually came home, that people do need a dentist more than they need a dry cleaner. Yeah, yeah. Or whatever else I would have become. But you know, it’s a funny thing because what you choose to do. What would you would you would you have any kids? But would you tell your kid to become a dentist?

[00:27:16] Oh, that’s a really tricky one, because I really want to say yes. I really want to say yes to that question, and I have to be honest, I think I would say no because I. Shame. I feel like and I hope it passes. I feel like we’re we’re going through a period in our profession, which in some ways is incredible. I think we’re so privileged to be in a situation where we’ve got great technology. You know, digital dentistry is phenomenal. We’ve got great material sciences. You know, the things we can do artistically, aesthetically for patients without, you know, very minimally invasively. I, you know, I get such a kick out of that side of things. I absolutely love it. So that side of things is amazing. But then you look at the kind of the litigious ness of the population that we’re living in. You look at the lack of support that we get, I believe from our regulators the way that that all plays out. I just think it’s become quite difficult. And certainly, I feel so lucky that I managed to kind of pave the way for myself within dentistry into the types of clinics that I worked at. Because, you know, I read on these forums that the kind of the situations that a lot of associates working in very busy NHS practises are going through, and I just think that must be so hard. And we we need that to be going on because we need the NHS Dental system to be working and we need patients to have access to that care. But working in that way within that system, I think, is really hard. And if somebody came into the profession now, they’d have to work through that first before they could get to a point where they’re not having to do that anymore. So that’s probably why I would have reservations, I think.

[00:29:00] I don’t know if you’ve seen that British Dental Action Group

[00:29:04] Have, and it’s it’s a little bit soul destroying. And I read the post and I sent this such a kind of there’s a bit of a seminar between associates and principals and. Both sides seem to just so often see the worst in each other, and I’m sure there’s reasons for that, but I find that really sort of disappointing because ideally if you’re in a situation where you’re either a principal or you’re an associate, it should be based on a place of trust for either your associate or your principal. And I think not being able to have that and feeling like. You’re kind of constantly being screwed over for want of a better word. It’s just really sad and it’s a horrible kind of environment. It’s a bad energy to be working in. I would say

[00:29:52] Stephanie got worse since the pandemic, for sure. But you know, the funny thing is, you know, it feels like now the balance of power has shifted towards principles. Well, I guess now there’s a shortage of associates, and so it might come back. But you know, if you could someone someone somewhere could make the argument for, listen, you’ve got to put in your years as an associate and eventually you’ll become a principal and your benefit from all of that. But it misses a whole massive group of the profession who don’t want to become principals. You know, they want to just be associates.

[00:30:27] So interesting. So I was an associate forever.

[00:30:31] Thirty years. Yeah.

[00:30:32] Well, I became a principal sort of by accident. When you’re an associate, you have your own set of kind of things that you’re aware of that feel quite full. You’re full up, you’re your day is full of the things that you are fully aware of. As an associate, you already feel like you’re having to take on quite a lot of responsibility and you know you’re having to do a lot. So it’s quite easy as an associate to completely miss an entire kind of dimension of stuff that you’re not even aware of that the principal is having to think about. And I think it’s that’s where the problem is. There’s that lack of understanding between the two sides, I think.

[00:31:11] Yeah, yeah. And look, we see it on the courses where it’s time, you know, obviously more associates come to the courses than principals. What’s the reason for that? But there is that when it comes to, OK, what are you going to buy? There are some people who will not buy anything because that’s the that’s the principal’s job. And although I even though I get that, you know, when I was an associate, I were buying whatever the hell I wanted. That was, it was. It was a one thing. I wanted a control camera when I bought it. You know, I was going to go ask the principal for it. That said, that said, when you’re getting screwed over, the last thing you want to do is put your hand in your pocket. And my advice to young dentists who are in this situation tends to be think of your associate years as education is not as business is. You know, of course, it’s your livelihood and you’re, you know, you could be paying for your kid’s school or whatever it is. But think of those years as education, but it still misses the point that there are plenty of people mothers who want to work part time, just people who don’t want to be business owners. You know, not everyone has to be a business owner. Plenty of people who will never be principals. And if we have it skewed too much against associate, you’re going to have some people whose their whole working lives will feel like they’re being screwed over. And that’s a real shame. Real, real shame. I agree with you.

[00:32:36] I think in reality, you said, you said you wonder why there’s more associates that come on the courses than principals. It’s because there are more associates than principals. That’s true in number. And I think you need both.

[00:32:47] There’s kind of a scramble for private jobs as well as in there. So there’s people going on courses to try and get the good jobs and so forth. So let’s move on and talk about some clinical bits. So you’re a great proponent of minimally invasive cosmetic dentistry as well as, I guess, eugenics practise was a lot to do with veneers for some veneers, right?

[00:33:14] So you tend to famously doesn’t like prepping tea, so she’s always been minimally invasive from that perspective. So we were never a heavy prep type clinic. I also worked at a clinic which ended up closing down, which is why I ended up starting my own clinic. But I worked at another clinic that did a lot of cosmetic dentistry, and it was all we did. So we did lots of veneer cases and lots of Invisalign and fixed race cases. So I would say that it’s about you can still be minimally invasive. It’s about how you plan your treatment. It’s about kind of designing the small addictively so that you can be minimally invasive in your approach. And it’s about doing pre restorative alignment wherever it’s necessary. Whenever you can kind of educate the patient to understand that that is a much better way of kind of moving forwards in that in that kind of treatment phase, if that makes sense. So yeah, I would say I’ve always been a fan of minimally invasive.

[00:34:13] Yeah. Although some people will argue that there’s a there’s a time for not being minimally invasive and, you know, prepping properly and all of that. But give me one or two tips one one one one tip from the sort of the patient management side when you’re treating cosmetic patients and then one sort of clinical, you know, Yasmin tip. Jasmine. So Jasmine gets hit on whatever aspect of clinical dentistry, something that you can sort of.

[00:34:42] Yeah, I think one thing I’ve learnt is that communication is so important when you’re dealing with patients who say, OK, so one thing is, isn’t it a privilege that patients come and see us for elective treatment? So the whole the whole kind of like mood changes when someone comes in and you have to tell them they need a root canal treatment or they need an extraction versus someone comes to you and says, Please help me. I want you to help me improve my smile. So already, that’s just such a great energy space to be in. It’s wonderful, and it gives you the opportunity to kind of achieve something wonderful for that person and actually really see how it’s going to change their life for the better. So I think it’s a huge honour that anyone that’s able to do that sort of work, I believe is very lucky. And I think one thing I’ve learnt over the years is all about communication because you have to understand what the patient wants and try and avoid yourself from kind of prescribing what you think they should want. Because when you look at their smile, that’s what you see and stay focussed on what they don’t like and what they’re trying to improve, because then you’re much less likely to end up over treating or overpaying or, you know, complicating things, I would say. So from that perspective, I think that has a huge impact. The other thing is, I’m a complete course junkie and I never stop going on courses, and I think people sometimes tell me off. We’re going on so many courses, but I genuinely think you’ll learn something new from every single course that you go on and you get to a point where you don’t come away having that massive things.

[00:36:18] You might just learn tiny things like I remember going on Andy McLean’s course and I was probably one of the oldest people there, like it was full of people who were two or three years out of uni. But I admire his clinical skills so much and the beautiful work that he’s been like creating for years. So I was like, I’m sure there’s I’m sure I’ll learn stuff and I did, and I came away having learnt, you know, two or three kind of titbits that I then use. I still use. Sometimes I’ll, you know, I’ll hold myself Lex disc at a certain angle and be like, Oh, that was that was how Andy McLean said, You should hold yourself like this. So I think sometimes people get a bit too kind of proud to carry on learning. And certainly I found it quite interesting. Like, I still go on courses even though I’m now involved. I’m privileged. I’m really lucky that I’m involved in teaching on some courses, but that doesn’t stop me going on courses and sometimes I’ll go on a course and the people teaching the course are a bit shocked that I’m there and they sort of almost feel like I’m their spying. And I’m not. I’m just eager to keep learning. So I think keep learning is and never be, never be too proud to keep learning. I think is is a key point.

[00:37:28] Sure, sure. And you know, I remember when you came on on ours as well and you’ve been on a cheese course, I think you said, was it? Yeah. And I would say to you, Well, OK, hopefully we’re going to make you happy.

[00:37:46] But Dipesh is a fantastic clinician and you guys won an amazing course, and I’m always advising people to come on your course. That doesn’t matter. I teach composite bonding courses. That doesn’t mean I don’t think that your course was phenomenal. And some of the things you know that you guys teach on that course are brilliant. And you know, the other thing is a lot of people will say the same thing, but it’s like you said about watching a film or reading a book for a second time. Like I’ve been on many of today’s courses, I’ve been on many of Newton Files courses. Sometimes you do the same course twice and you get different things out of that time. So I think there’s there’s no harm in in hearing something twice and hearing something twice from two different people just reinforces that it’s the right thing to do, right.

[00:38:31] So I think it’s a good point. You know, we encourage people to come back and observe on us for that very reason. You know, when you try and put it into action, then you’ve got totally different questions to before you’ve even properly tried to put it into action. Tell me about teaching. I mean, you teach on Invisalign and you line a line of consulting and you teach on the brilliant small parts of the programme. Give us some clues on Invisalign to start with. I mean, are you a super duper diamond plus plus whatever?

[00:39:05] No, I’m so, I’m not. So I work. I don’t. I’m not involved in anyone else’s account. I just take my own account. I’m a single handed practitioner, so I’m platinum elite. And for me, actually, I limit the number of cases I do because I don’t want to be overwhelmed with cases. I want to have complete control over my cases and my case planning. So I first started Invisalign back in sort of 2008, 2009, and back then it was a great idea, but it wasn’t anywhere near as phenomenal a system as it is now, and the teaching wasn’t as structured as it is now. I mean, the way that we teach the programmes now, it’s so kind of structured and methodical and. Safe as well. Rahman Rahman Olark is an incredible specialist, orthodontist. He’s amazing, so he’s incredible clinician and an incredible educator. So when I did his post-grad diploma programme on clearer line of therapy, that was where I kind of suddenly thought, Wow, this is amazing. This is an amazing system and you can use this within your kind of small design principles and your veneer cases or bonding cases to really get great results completely, minimally invasively. So I think it’s that’s another thing that we’re so lucky to have in our industry right now is these kind of systems that we can use and work with to achieve such great results for people, you know, without having to take a bar to their teeth. It’s brilliant. Yeah.

[00:40:27] Do you do you plan the Invisalign, the clinics yourself or do you

[00:40:31] 100 percent, 100 percent, I think. I think that’s really important. Yeah. I know lots of people outsource and you can outsource, but it’s half the fun for me. I actually love planning clinics. That’s what a lot of a lot of the time that I spent helping other dentists is, you know, doing case cafes and things like that, you know, helping to plan their cases. It’s great fun. You know, you’re looking at the smile within the face and then looking at how you want to move the teeth safely, you know, within the kind of the biological parameters that that individual has. It’s brilliant.

[00:41:03] But where did you learn that? I mean, was that on Roman’s course? Because.

[00:41:07] Yes. So yes, I learnt I probably felt way out of my depth for many years before I realised that there was a system to use. And then, yeah, I learnt it via the diploma, and then I just carried on learning after that. Really, that just kind of sparked a huge interest for me. It must just play into the way my brain works. I might. I think I have quite a mechanically minded brain. So the concept of the fintech and planning just sits quite easily within my mindset, I think.

[00:41:34] It sounds like you enjoy it. But but if it was me, if it was me and I haven’t got the skills you’ve got in orthodontics, but if it was me, I would think, well, I could outsource this to an orthodontist. And you know, that would be the safest thing would be a real proper orthodontist doing the the planning part.

[00:41:57] I think it’s about case selection, isn’t it? Because you’re absolutely right. You touched on a really interesting point there. So there is definitely a very important place and need for specialist orthodontics. And just because general dental practitioners can do alignment treatments doesn’t mean that orthodontists are obsolete. We have to know our place and we have to know our limitations and our safe parameters. That’s probably I think that’s why Invisalign developed the Invisalign go system, which is kind of more restrictive in the types of movements and the number of teeth that can be moving things like that. So that was all brought about, I think, as a result of, you know, wanting to kind of rein things in a bit and make things as safe as possible. But as long as you’re working within safe parameters, I think I don’t think it’s purely orthodontics because you’re doing small design, you’re looking at the full face and actually planning that person smile within that facial kind of set up. I think so.

[00:42:51] Is that orthodontic?

[00:42:54] I mean, it is orthodontics, but it’s also aesthetics and cosmetics, isn’t it?

[00:42:57] So everything. Well, what I meant was what I meant, though, was if I was a general dentist carrying out Invisalign, I would outsource the clean check to an orthodontist.

[00:43:07] I think I’m too much of a control freak Payman. I don’t think I could do that. I would want to know what’s happening in the city. Yeah, but the thing now is that there’s so much support available that anyone that needs that support or wants that guidance or wants to understand things, they can access that support quite easily. Yeah, there’s all sorts of forums and case cafe support that they can access. So I think the help is there. It’s just about making sure that I think people need to stay within their comfort zone and within their scope of practise. And things go wrong when people start stepping outside of that. I think, are you?

[00:43:42] Are you a control freak? Generally. Probably.

[00:43:48] And I think my my good friends and colleagues at small force would say, yes, definitely.

[00:43:53] Maybe. Yeah. Well, it took took it about talking about things that go wrong. We ask every guest this question. It’s a question around clinical errors. Can you think of clinical errors? You’ve made something something that the audience can learn from some people can learn from. Can you think of a situation?

[00:44:13] I think if I if you asked me for it to remember my most stressful ever clinical situation, it would be a case where the lady came in. She’d had veneers, so she had up to 44 veneers. She’d had them done by her previous dentist and she was in tears. So she was in tears on the phone before she even came in. She was in tears on the day that she came in. And, you know, she was in an absolute kind of state about these veneers that she’d had done, and she was literally begging me to help her, begging me to help her, begging me to change the veneers. And you get drawn in because there’s a human being in need crying and you look at the veneers and you think, I mean, they’re not awful, but they’re not great. And I think you just get dragged down this awful path where you’re kind of being dragged along by the patient and the patient’s putting all this pressure and demand on you to do things that you perhaps don’t necessarily think are right, or they might be putting time pressure on you to kind of get things done within certain time frames that aren’t relaxed enough or realistic enough to allow due diligence and due planning and everything. And. And so this particular patient managed to convince me that her veneers had to be changed and it was affecting her life. And she was in an absolute state and she’d got the previous dentist to give her a partial refund. So she was, you know, she was getting me to kind of supply the treatment plan so that she could get the other dentist to contribute. And all of these things, and

[00:45:47] You get

[00:45:48] This feeling like something doesn’t feel right from the absolute outset. It doesn’t quite feel right, but you get kind of railroaded into it and you get guilt tripped and emotionally blackmailed and you just get drawn in. And I think it turned out, you know, we gave her some veneers. She was absolutely adamant that she wanted a particular shade. We tried to talk her out of it because it was a ridiculous shade. We tried it. So we were like, Sure, this is too bright. You’re not going to like it. What about the lower teeth? It’s not going to match blah blah blah. No. Absolutely adamant. Signed off on the consent. Absolutely adamant. Explain to her at the time. Once you choose the shade, there’s no going back. You can’t suddenly change your mind. If you want your veneers, you’re going to have to pay again. So she picks that shade and then of course, she signs off on having them fitted before they’re fitted. She looks at them. Yes, I’m happy. And then of course, she comes back like three weeks later in tears, begging ask, No, they’re too bright. Everyone’s making fun of me. You’ve got to change them. For me, they’re affecting. When I’m having a nervous breakdown, you’ve got to help me, please. You’ve got to help me. So of course, what do you do? You change them again, even though you try and convince her not to? You tell her she has to wait a period of time because she’s going to potentially damage the nerves of her teeth, exposing them again. So this whole drama, this long, drawn out drama is like going on for about six months. Eventually, you replace the veneers again and you go for the shade that she should have gone for in the first place.

[00:47:05] Without without charging her more without you paid the whole second lab for yourself.

[00:47:11] Ok. And of course, I was working at the time from many corporates, so I paid that now and then, so we fitted them, she said. She loved

[00:47:19] Them. The second, the second one,

[00:47:21] The second time she gave me a bottle of Chanel perfume, she gave me a card saying, I’m finally happy. Thank you so much. And then a month later, I was actually at Leaders Clinic in Geneva when an email came through, and she said, I’m just not happy. I’m still not happy. I’ve been to another dentist and I want I want a partial refund from you so that I can get a couple of them replaced. I know you’re going to tell me to come and see you and you’ll do it for me, but it’s just too far for me because she lived like 100 hundred miles away. So she was like, I’m just going to go somewhere local. After all that,

[00:47:56] Well, do I have to stay for a full refund?

[00:47:58] I gave her a full refund and I said, Don’t don’t, don’t ever contact me again. I’d do anything to do it like the full refund. But my point is I knew that first, that first, that first phone contact with her was so erratic. And so, you know, extreme emotions that I had that gut feeling then. But I got drawn in and I think my biggest learning experience from that and the biggest take home and the biggest thing, I want to help other dentists avoid, especially younger dentists who were likely to get sort of taken on that sort of minefield is trust your gut. And when you when you see red flags at the very beginning, stop their red flags for a reason. Passed the person on, you know, refer on to someone who’s more experienced or somebody who, you know, maybe won’t get as emotionally drawn in as you might. But yeah, that would be that would be my biggest kind of learning point because that was so stressful and unnecessarily so.

[00:48:52] Yeah, I think you know what it is that some people have this natural ability to trust their instincts and they know something feels right or doesn’t, and they can’t even articulate why that is. But they trust their instincts for other people. People like me, I don’t know if people like you, but it takes some years of living and experience before it gets proved to you that you should trust your instincts. You know, I’ve had that situation as well with, you know, we used to do this thing. We were say, refer your very hardest whitening cases to me so that we can try, you know, the next version of Enlightened on them. And you know, there’ll be some really proper difficult cases of cases of patient would put the tray in the mouth without any gel and massive sensitivity, you know, patients with severe tetracycline staining, very thin enamel bruxism. And then there what they thought they could get out of it was totally unrealistic. And as a younger dentist, I’ve fallen to, I’ve fallen down that trap as well. But you know what interests me about that story that you just told is the psychology? What do you now think was going on? Do you think that she was putting, you know, like she had a psychological issue and she did. She’d given the name to her pain was her teeth.

[00:50:20] Yeah, I think I think she was unhappy and she felt like the teeth were going to be the secret to make everything better. And they weren’t. And she had other issues. And I think also I was at fault because I allowed her to kind of manipulate me. And I’m just sometimes I especially I used to be a little bit too soft hearted. So I would kind of, you know, feel really bad for this person. That’s crying. And I guess I used to feel bad for not helping people because I thought, you know, we have this, we have this skill and we’ve, you know, we we have an almost like a the Hippocratic kind of oath and, you know, a responsibility to help people. So I should be helping this person. And in reality, you’re probably helping them more by not getting involved, but you’re definitely helping yourself move on, for sure.

[00:51:06] I mean, out of your content, I’ve noticed over the years that there’s this sort of ethical dimension to what you say online and on the forums and all that. Am I right? Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I mean, so everyone says I’m ethical, but but I’ve noticed in your in your content there’s a there’s a focus on the ethics of kind of kind of the thing you just said that the the privilege of treating a patient and and helping people. Where do you think this comes from?

[00:51:38] It’s my upbringing. I think that I have a very strong sense of, I guess, right and wrong. Yeah. So I didn’t grow up with a religious kind of upbringing at all, but I think it was the obviously having a Middle Eastern father like the principles of his own kind of upbringing as well as very strong. So I think I have quite a strong sense of right and wrong, and my values probably are quite strong in that sense. So I probably from there, I think,

[00:52:03] Well, then you find yourself constantly judging people being disappointed by people. What’s the downside? What’s the downside of that?

[00:52:12] I don’t judge people at all. One of the things we say in NLP is that everybody’s doing their best. And honestly, that’s one of the core principles. And it really helps stop you from being frustrated by people or disappointed in people is that everyone’s doing the very best that they can with the resources they have available to. At any given point in time. So, yeah, if they’re not doing something well enough, they’re doing their best for whatever reason, they might have all sorts of limitations on them at that point in time that you’re completely unaware of. So they’re doing their best. So except that that’s their best, even if it’s not as good as you want it to be. Yeah. And then, you know, go on from there.

[00:52:51] What’s been your darkest day from a network perspective? Was it was it that patient

[00:52:58] That that period of time because I take everything so personally? That’s one of my downsizes. I take everything personally. So if something, if someone isn’t happy, I kind of tear myself up inside thinking, what could I have done differently? What should I have done differently? How could I fix it, which in some ways is constructive because it means you can move forwards and think, OK, how would I do that differently next time? But equally, you can kind of tear yourself up inside thinking, taking full ownership for things, I guess in that sense. So yeah,

[00:53:28] But this combination of high ethics? Control freak. It was. It must be a nightmare for you. You know, I noticed on my husband the book when I was going to say was, you know, like that perfection paralysis that some people sort of suffer with. I notice on your on your Instagram, which is a lovely kind of page. You’ve got, you know, before and after whatever. And then before and after somebody else. I up before and after there’s loads of cases on there. How how do you deal with worrying? You know what, you’re going to think about these cases?

[00:54:03] And so I have massive issues with that. And what I have to do is someone has to post it for me and sometimes. So I have a lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely colleague called Rachel. She’s actually Chris Burrows daughter, so she manages my social media for me. So I send her cases and sometimes she’ll post them and I have a complete freakout and I go on and delete it. And I’m like, Sorry, I just I can’t. So, yeah, it is an issue. I think the thing with Instagram is you have to decide if you’re patient focussed or dentist focussed, and mine’s always been more directed towards patients. I never intended to kind of end up being in the educational side of dentistry. I love it, but it was never my plan. So it wasn’t how I set my Instagram off or anything like that. So the thought that other dentists look at my case is actually fills me with dread if I’m honest with you. But my wonderful team and Rachel just kind of push me through and go, Nope, just post it, just post it. It’s fine. And to be honest, it’s it’s it’s kind of business, isn’t it like you get patients kind of contacting you via Instagram or because of what they see on your Instagram? So it kind of it’s practise building at the end of the day. So I have to it has to be about more than me or my kind of insecurities or my ego has to be about the the bigger picture, I think.

[00:55:18] So you’re saying because it’s a necessary evil, you just make sure it happens. You don’t enjoy doing it.

[00:55:25] No, and I don’t do it, she posts it for me.

[00:55:27] I mean, you said you said you had you were interested in things like arts and performance and all that. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

[00:55:37] I think I was an extrovert as a teenager, and then I became quite introverted. And now, since I’ve started teaching and stuff

[00:55:45] That sides come

[00:55:46] Back, I’m rediscovering that extrovert side.

[00:55:49] Tell me, tell me about teaching on the small first thing because you know the number of courses those guys are running. Yeah, it’s just insane, isn’t it?

[00:55:59] It’s been amazing. I feel so

[00:56:01] Lucky. Was it like they did 15 in a row or something? No more

[00:56:05] Than that. So in March? Yeah, March or April, from March to April, we had, I think, twenty eight days. I was at like 14 of them.

[00:56:16] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:56:19] Yeah, it’s been. It’s been amazing. It’s been an incredible journey.

[00:56:25] Yeah, they were a great team. I was going to say that, you know, Thomas Thomas, obviously clinically excellent. You know, I don’t know. He sees himself as me in the mini smile makeover scenario. I don’t know. I’m not sure what think. I don’t know. Is he the? Does he give clinical input or not? Or who is he

[00:56:46] An amazing clinician?

[00:56:47] I know he is, but in the teaching and the teaching of it?

[00:56:50] No. No. Massively. Yeah, he’s like, Yeah, he’s like clinical lead. He’s he’s very, very involved. Very, very much so. So we just launched the indirect course a couple of weeks ago. And yeah, we would we were doing, you know, lecture slides, obviously, Tom being the clinical wizard that he is massively involved. And then Mindy and I were kind of going over slides until one a.m. several nights over the last few weeks on Zoom. So no, he’s very, very much so. He’s they’re lovely, lovely people, actually. So the interesting thing is that I’ve always kind of used to drive you mad, but I just used to always kind of shy away from Dental circles. I never really mixed with dentists and I never put myself forward for things. I just kind of on purpose. Yeah, I just kept my head down. I used to find, you know, like the Facebook forums and things where people post things and then everyone kind of erupts. And there’s all this kind of, you know, not very nice behaviour, to be honest with you. I just used to stand back and just kind of avoid it all. I wasn’t even in a lot of the groups, to be fair. And so I’ve always kind of avoided mixing with other dentists and doing anything kind of with other dentists professional, really. So this kind of came as a surprise. But yeah, they’re such lovely people. The smart fast guys are just lovely. It’s a lovely, lovely team of people and it’s been a real privilege.

[00:58:04] Yeah, and are you wish? Which bit of it do you do? Do you actually stand up and be the lecturer or are you also? Yeah. So what piece do you teach?

[00:58:12] So the on a small, fast direct. Yeah, I teach on that and I’m not teaching on the indirect as well. So yeah, I’m one of the main speakers. Oh, nice.

[00:58:22] Yeah, it’s fun. And how often are you doing that now?

[00:58:26] So probably a few days a month, a few days each month, like weekends and stuff? Yeah.

[00:58:31] Would you say funny to me?

[00:58:32] Are the dentist as well? Yeah, it’s actually really fun meeting all the dentists and kind of sharing knowledge and sharing experiences you learn from each other. I would say I

[00:58:42] Enjoy it a lot. I enjoy it a lot. But there’s an aspect of I don’t get out enough with, you know, as a dentist, you don’t realise it. You meet loads of people as dentists. Okay. It doesn’t quite feel the same as meeting someone in a non-clinical environment. But you know, when we go on slameka or whatever. I love being out and meeting people because I don’t meet that many people because we’ve got the same 40 people in my office. You know, what do you prefer? Do you prefer a day of teaching or a day of clinical?

[00:59:15] I’d say I love both. You know, like in the second lockdown, like in January to March, April when everyone was locked out, yeah, I felt so lucky that I was seeing human beings every day at work and I was watching my patients come in and sort of especially like Invisalign people that you see once a month, I was kind of watching them kind of just disappear into themselves each month. So just that 10, 15 minute chat that we were having, I could really feel it was helping them. So I feel I love that. And then I love teaching. I don’t know. There’s there’s just something about the energy in the room that you get when you’re teaching and watching people learn, especially, you know, like you’re passionate about composite bonding, like, you know, when you watch people and you know, you’re looking at, I don’t know, we’re showing them how to do line angles, let’s say, and suddenly that light bulb moment when they get it and you’re like, Wow, you get it. Like, I remember how long it took me to grasp the concept of line angles and how many different people. Maybe I was just thick and slow on the uptake, but how many different people had to teach me that for me to finally grasp it and to be involved in that? I just, I don’t know. I just it’s the simple things. Maybe I’m a geek, but I really enjoy that.

[01:00:25] I think it’s fun. No, I think you’re right. I think you’re right. For me, it’s the key thing. And you know, I do this in my time of my training, which is, yeah, you did mine. I did. I did. Yeah. So yeah, I do that a lot. Yeah, I do that. I know sometimes three times a week, four times a week, sometimes depending on, you know, my my movements. And, you know, if we’re totally frank about it, if we’re really being honest about it, there’s an aspect of that which is sales. Yeah, but if it was sales and I thought it was sales, no way would I do that three times a week. I mean, I would spend my life being a salesman. I just, you know, I’ll hire salesmen salesman to do that job if you want.

[01:01:07] But it didn’t feel sales when you were doing it, if education.

[01:01:11] That’s what I mean. That’s what I mean, because it feels like education. I’m happy to do it again and again and again and again and and not get bored by it and be energised by it. And in a lot of ways, these sort of things end up being how you feel about them, don’t they? Because I was honest with my brother, he was having a rough week. He’s a he’s a hospital consultant radiologist. He was having a rough week and he was saying, Oh, I hate this hate that, you know, they have a lot of internal pressures amongst between doctors themselves, right? And and I said to him, Well, what if I told you you were being paid a million pounds to do this? And and he was like, Well, then if you write it, then it would be OK. And I was reflecting on the idea that it’s actually the same thing would have happened to him all week. No different. But now, because there’s this million pounds, suddenly, suddenly it’s all good and it’s understandable. I get it. But the way, the way you look at things, it really changes your experience of them. You know, that’s that’s the take-home message, I guess.

[01:02:13] Hundred percent. It’s about how you frame it. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[01:02:18] What do you do outside of work? If Jasmine had a weekend to herself or whatever, what would be your

[01:02:24] What’s one of those Payman?

[01:02:26] Well, we were like, All right, good morning. Good morning to yourself. What would you? What would be? Yeah.

[01:02:32] Well, like one of my hobbies, I like art. So I was when I when I had more free time, before I started my clinic, when I when I had that, the work life balance, I would say I used to do painting classes. There’s a lovely guy that does. It’s called cheese in one painting club and you go along in the evenings and there’s a nice group of people and you he teaches you how to paint a painting so that I quite like painting. I used to do a lot of music, so I used to play the piano. Oh yeah, I know. And but classically so my my main thing I’m trying to learn is jazz piano now, because growing up I did classical, which is great. It’s lovely, but I’ve always envied the kind of the freedom and the creativity. I feel like I’m not creative enough. So I think if I was to learn jazz piano, that would open up that channel of creativity, maybe. So, yeah, I dabble in jazz piano, I would say.

[01:03:22] Have you got a piano at home? Yeah, yeah. It’s similar. I’m in a similar situation with piano. I never got very good at it, but my brother did get into jazz, piano and wow and the beautiful bit about just making it up on the spot. Yeah, and it’s actually all only about the scales. You know, it’s only about understanding which notes to avoid

[01:03:42] When you’re when you’re cleaning, when you’re classically trained. Yeah. So I did great. I did. I did all the grades. Did you? When you’re classically trained, you don’t think in chords.

[01:03:50] Yeah, yeah.

[01:03:51] So you think in kind of daunting chords and that’s what you need to be able to do is thinking chords to do jazz. So it’s a complete paradigm shift. It’s different.

[01:04:00] So, OK, art and jazz piano? Ok, what if? What if I said you could? You could go anywhere. Money’s not an object, and time is not a problem.

[01:04:12] I’d love to go to Cuba. I haven’t been to Cuba yet, and I’d love. You go to Cuba.

[01:04:15] Yeah, me too, me too, although I hear the food’s not great. I’d only go places where the food’s great. What’s the best place you’ve been to? What’s your favourite place you’ve been to? Some of them, some of them I’ve

[01:04:29] Been to, I really liked Mexico. Oh yeah. I enjoyed the Maldives, although I is going to sound sacrilegious. We went the Maldives for like four days and I felt like that was enough for me.

[01:04:44] People say that it quiet. People say I’ve never been there for

[01:04:48] Four or five days. I think with that five days. So yeah, they’re probably my two most favourite places. I used to love visiting Iran, actually, but I haven’t been for over 10 years.

[01:04:57] Me too. It’s a bit of a mission.

[01:05:00] It is. But then when you’re there, I don’t know. I can’t explain it. I’ve never lived there. I’m only half Iranian, but there’s something about like you just the air, something. It just feels like home. I can’t explain it.

[01:05:11] It’s strange. All right. Well, we tend to finish these things with the same questions, and I don’t know if you’ve heard them at Prav. Prav can’t be here today, but they called Prav final questions. And the first one is you on your deathbed? You’ve got your nearest and dearest with you. What are three pieces of advice you would leave for them

[01:05:37] And for the world?

[01:05:41] Um, I would say don’t stress about the small things.

[01:05:46] Even though retired, even though you do, even though you do know,

[01:05:50] I wish I didn’t. Yeah, there’s just about small things because they actually don’t matter. I would say always be honest. And always be kind.

[01:06:02] Yeah, very nice.

[01:06:04] I think if you can do those things, then you’ll have a an easier life.

[01:06:09] Very nice. Very nice.

[01:06:11] That’s what I would say.

[01:06:13] And what about the Prav next final question is how would you like to be remembered? Jasmine, was it doesn’t have to be one word doesn’t work well.

[01:06:24] Kind. I guess kind and honest. And kind, honest, strong. Capable. That’s probably a kind, honest, capable

[01:06:37] Are you to, for instance, what kind of a boss are you in this practise?

[01:06:43] Oh, I mean, I would hope I’m kind and fair.

[01:06:46] Yeah, yeah. But, you know. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you try, right, everyone tries to be kind of no

[01:06:52] Pushover like I want things done correctly. I want standards to be, you know, at a certain point. Yeah. But I’d like to think I’m fair and kind. So when I see the human being, you know, like I try and be really try and be reasonable and I try and put myself in their shoes.

[01:07:07] And how do you navigate the question of, you know, you want to be best friends with you, nurse, but you can’t be best friends with your employee? Well, can you?

[01:07:19] I don’t try and be best friends with my employee. I think the only time I almost got too close to my nurse was when I was a vet and I just had an amazing nurse. She was incredible and we were very close in age and we were just really good friends and I used to find it hard to ask her to do things because we’d become friends. So I think I think with experience and with age, you grow in confidence and you grow in your ability to be assertive without being bossy or mean or overly demanding, I think is the key. I think the thing with us is with dentists, we couldn’t do what we do to the best of our abilities without a really, really good nurse supporting you. And it’s, you know, there’s two people involved. And I think that’s the key is to always remember that fact and to never think that you’re better than the nurse because you can’t do what you need to do without them.

[01:08:12] Well, you lived all those years as a nurse yourself, right? You know, for me, I’ve never been a Dental nurse, but I feel like the Dental nurse is having a rougher day than the dentist on most days. Am I right or wrong on that?

[01:08:27] I don’t know. You know, Payman. I think we have a lot of pressure on us. I think when I was a nurse. The things that I thought were really difficult for me. It’s a bit like the associate and the principal discussion, isn’t it? Like you always think that you’re having the hardest time, but then the other person is having a hard time for their own reasons, I think, you know. Yeah, I wouldn’t say they’re having a harder time, necessarily. They shouldn’t be. And if they are, then something’s not going well, like you should be working. I think in such a way that they’re not having a harder time than you. You should be sharing the load, even though you can’t share it necessarily completely equally because you have different responsibilities. But I always think as well, especially with nurses like they’ll be one or two small things that if his dentist, we just did it slightly differently would make their lives so much easier.

[01:09:11] Like what? Simple things like make them a cup of coffee,

[01:09:14] Putting things down in a certain

[01:09:16] Way. Oac little thing making clear up easier.

[01:09:20] Yeah, but that’s such a simple thing. But when you’re rushing through the day, if you always make that effort and I’m not suggesting for a second that I always remember to do this, you know? In fact, I’m glad you asked me this question because from tomorrow again, I’ll remember this, that I’ve said it. So now I have to do it. But you know, I think it’s about making things simpler for each other.

[01:09:40] But yeah, I was always used to make make coffee and tea for my nurse because I always used to think that I had time to and they didn’t, you know, people used to get very surprised by it. Sometimes I couldn’t believe it. And then I say thank you to my nurse and the get surprised by that as well, like the number of dentists who don’t say thank you to their nurse. Amazingly, you know, I just couldn’t couldn’t understand, why would you not? At the end of the day, say thank you.

[01:10:13] I’m so lucky at the moment. I have such a lovely nurse. She’s wonderful, she’s amazing and I couldn’t do what I do that her. And yeah, I feel like I’m very lucky. But yeah, you’re absolutely right. You have to say thank you.

[01:10:26] I said, obviously, but but I do suffer with trying to be the best friend of all my people. And, you know, maybe it’s just sort of, you know, we’re all living out different sort of ideas of who we think we are, right, the lies. We’re telling each other ourselves, you know, Oh God, I want it to be like enlightened to be like a Google place where everyone’s having fun. And where’s the reality of it? Probably is that no, you know, people are working their butts off in Google. Yeah, that’s like, you know. But I’ve got it in my head that everyone’s playing ping pong and being creative. So, so I’ve always wanted that for for my office. Along with that goes. I sometimes do get too close to my team, you know, and then when there’s a disciplinary issue or something, it causes a problem. I’ve got I’ve got a partner who’s who’s very good at that sort of thing, but it must be lonely as a principal of a small practise, insomuch as you’ve got all the decisions on you and no one to, you know, talk to you. So have you got a group of people that you do talk to people like, you know, or.

[01:11:28] Yeah. So I talk to Janet. In fact, Barry’s great. I still hear Barry. Barry recently came as a patient, and then we ended up going for dinner offers, and I felt like it was a therapy session. It was brilliant. He just gave me a full on unscheduled coaching session in like 20 minutes, and I was like, Wow, this is what it’s like to kind of share things, but I probably share. I talked to my small force colleagues as well. Like, I talk to Mindy quite a lot about clinical staff and clinic stuff. We’ll we’ll share kind of experiences and kind of war wounds, I guess in that sense. So that’s quite nice because you’re white, you can get quite insular, but I’m in a building with other dentists. So there’s a there’s a partnership within my building that separates me, but they’re lovely.

[01:12:09] So I talk to them and they say, What’s that?

[01:12:11] Call and ploughman and partners are in my building.

[01:12:14] So whereas it now? Yeah.

[01:12:17] Yes. So that lovely. So, yeah, they use enlightened, I think.

[01:12:22] Ok, one final question. Dinner party. Three other guests. Dead or alive?

[01:12:35] Tony Benn,

[01:12:35] Tony Benn got a great answer.

[01:12:38] I treated him once. No. He’s the only famous person I’ve ever treated and I just couldn’t contain myself. I was like, Well, giggling. Yeah. So definitely Tony Benn.

[01:12:49] Have you got a left wing bone in you? Yeah, a big bone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:12:55] It’s a bit challenging when you’re working in private practise.

[01:12:58] Well, Bollinger is right now.

[01:13:00] I don’t charge enough. That fee setting is an issue with me. Everyone always tells me off. But anyway, yeah, so Tony Benn. Chandler, as Chandler

[01:13:14] As Chandler, yeah, definitely,

[01:13:18] Chandler, who make me laugh, um, I’ve heard my third person be. I’m inspired by can I just have her to sing? Of course, Amy Winehouse.

[01:13:32] Oh, nice. Well, you don’t talk to her.

[01:13:36] Maybe, maybe if she’s like a bit older and yeah, maybe, maybe. But more to sing. Have you seen the movie? Amy? Yes. Yeah, multiple times. Yeah, I found

[01:13:47] I found it very interesting.

[01:13:49] She is. No, no, no. You’re absolutely right. She’s very interesting. I guess I would want her to talk. Ok, so it just not high on stuff like just her as her. I’d find her interesting. And as long as she could sing for us a bit as well, that would be good.

[01:14:02] What about if we had to throw in three dentists?

[01:14:06] Oh, three dentists for dinner, yeah.

[01:14:10] Dead or alive? Hmm.

[01:14:14] It’s hard to pick three Payman why? I don’t know so, but do I want to have dinner and talk about teeth?

[01:14:22] Not to, you know, so I’d have Larry just because he’s so much fun, not because I want to talk about teeth. Ok. I mean,

[01:14:30] I’ve never like. Present company excluded. I’ve never really thought of dentists as being like fun people to hang around with. It’s a recent thing for me that I’ve started having fun with other dentists.

[01:14:43] All right. Well, you know, give black. Professor Brennan, Britomart was incentives, was he? Well, you know what I mean? Doesn’t have to be.

[01:14:53] I’m drawing a blank. I’m actually thinking, Dipesh, because he seems like a really lovely guy.

[01:14:58] Tv black dipesh.

[01:15:01] No, I don’t give you black at my dinner table. Gary D-word is really lovely, and I haven’t seen him in ages. Gary DWORD from SPIR, he’s lovely. Excellent.

[01:15:12] Excellent. So the post, Gary didn’t do it and

[01:15:16] But they’re a random combination. I’m not sure they’d be great. I’m not sure. But yeah,

[01:15:21] I see your control freak this coming out in full effect right now. Right? Why? Because you just want to get this right? You don’t. Yeah, yeah.

[01:15:29] Because I love throwing a dinner party.

[01:15:31] I love cooking.

[01:15:32] I love. I love entertaining. We like we throw great parties. So I like having a good party. But you have to get the mix right. It’s got to be wine.

[01:15:40] Yeah.

[01:15:41] So I haven’t seen Gary do it for years. So maybe him and Diddy is very interesting, did you? She’s very interesting.

[01:15:49] Is he funny?

[01:15:50] He is on his partner’s lovely. So there are lovely. They’re a lovely pair. So yeah. Because I’m guessing they’re couples. They come as couples, right?

[01:15:57] No, I wasn’t thinking that. But you can have that if you want it.

[01:16:01] Because Gary David’s got a lovely wife as well. You see, this is what I’m thinking.

[01:16:04] So you can have it that way if you want. But I wasn’t. Ok, OK. I mean,

[01:16:08] I’m thinking about the table setting Payman and like, And

[01:16:11] What would you cook Iranian food? Oh, really, you could Iranian? Good on you. Yeah, like, that’s hard. It’s hard, isn’t it? No, it’s much

[01:16:20] Easier for a party because you can cook en masse. Oh, and then when you cook and then it just, you know, it works out easier, I think.

[01:16:26] Nice. Well, it’s been an absolute pleasure to speak to you today. Likewise. Thank you so much for taking the time. And you’re going to be at backhed.

[01:16:36] I am. I will see you there.

[01:16:37] Oh, amazing. I’ll see you at my party Thursday night. Well done. Perfect.

[01:16:40] Looking forward to it.

[01:16:41] Thank you so much.

[01:16:42] Thank you, Payman, John. Thank you so much. This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

[01:17:02] Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and

[01:17:08] Pay for actually sticking through and listening

[01:17:11] To what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you’ve got some value out of it if you did get some value out of it. Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.