Category: Podcast

Emma Mashall: A place that no one touches. When was the last time you sat there and touched the backs of your knees intentionally? The reason [00:00:05] being is because we’ve got loads of lymph nodes in the backs of the knees, and the lymph is literally all it’s needed [00:00:10] to work well is a bit of movement and a bit of touch. That’s it. And it just shows you [00:00:15] playing and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And your sort of guiding. We’re gonna have.

Rhona Eskander: To try it. We are going to try it.

Intro Voice: This [00:00:20] is mind movers moving [00:00:25] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for Dental [00:00:30] professionals. Your hosts Rhona Eskander and [00:00:35] Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Emma, welcome [00:00:40] to an episode of Mind Movers, the mental health podcast for dentists. This [00:00:45] is season two and we have the incredible Emma marshall. Emma is the founder [00:00:50] and CEO of Movement is Medicine, and when I first met Emma, it was through a friend and I [00:00:55] was drawn to her incredibly vibrant personality, her healing soul. [00:01:00] And we continue to stay in touch. And she inspired me because she recognised this huge gap in the market [00:01:05] for movement as a method of healing. I’m not talking just about exercise, but moving [00:01:10] your body to music, moving your body in any place that you’re at, not necessarily [00:01:15] being in a rave or at a party with people, and certainly not needing substances to fuel your [00:01:20] desire to move your body. She’s also been a TEDx speaker. She’s been at the Happy [00:01:25] Place Festival, which I was also at and has gone to, gone on to do incredible things. And [00:01:30] I think what’s really exciting is that she’s not gone on to do incredible things with what I call the woo woo [00:01:35] culture, but also the corporate society, because she’s recognised as well that people should have [00:01:40] access to healing and not be boxed up into just being part of a certain type of industry. [00:01:45] So welcome, Emma. Oh, thanks for having me.

Emma Mashall: What a lovely intro. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Thanks. [00:01:50] So, Emma, the reason why I found you so inspiring and I think a lot [00:01:55] of people have is because, you know, you had a series of unfortunate events that had happened to you, which [00:02:00] led you to where you are. So let’s start from the beginning. What are you were doing before? Movement is medicine [00:02:05] and how it led you to where you are today.

Emma Mashall: Yeah, so I had a really [00:02:10] successful career in the music industry. Um, and everything was going [00:02:15] great. You know, I was going from one kind of space in the industry to the other, just figuring out my path [00:02:20] in my 20s. But in 2015, I [00:02:25] had like a very serious health year where there was just all these different situations [00:02:30] that happened back to back. Um, and it wasn’t just like, oh, I had the flu. It was like I was hospitalised [00:02:35] with some serious conditions. And so one of them, I had to have a catheter [00:02:40] because my kidneys weren’t functioning properly. And then I got tripped over in the street. [00:02:45] I fractured my arm. And I was then diagnosed with like, a very serious, um, [00:02:50] nervous system disease, which, like, was all to do with the brain firing off the wrong [00:02:55] signals in regards to pain. So I couldn’t move the left side of my body. And it was [00:03:00] really, really serious for quite a long time. Um, I was also told with that one [00:03:05] that there was no kind of cure that would be my life. And I was like, nah, I don’t believe that. [00:03:10] Um, but then after that, I had to have my appendix out, and this was all in the space of six months. [00:03:15] So at that point I went to a GP and I was just like, there’s something wrong with me, [00:03:20] you know, I’m only 25, so why is my body not working properly? [00:03:25] And the GP kind of just was giving me the fobbed off of just like, oh, you’re probably a bit depressed.

Emma Mashall: And I was a bit [00:03:30] like, well, I think there’s more to it than that. And that’s when I started to look into a more holistic [00:03:35] way of understanding health. So started to look at nutrition. I started to look at my lifestyle. [00:03:40] I had burnt myself out like I just got into the music industry at 23, like full [00:03:45] time. Before that, I was doing bits and pieces and I just was doing so many jobs. I wasn’t [00:03:50] sleeping properly, I my diet was poor, and there was so many aspects of my [00:03:55] lifestyle that I can understand why that impacted on my health. Now that obviously I reflected on it and when [00:04:00] we were in those situations. It affects our nervous system, it affects our immune system, it affects our endocrine system. So [00:04:05] I really started to observe the ways in which my body was working and how it wasn’t, and changed [00:04:10] a lot, but I also felt like I never fully recovered. Uh, there was always this kind [00:04:15] of like missing piece of the jigsaw. And then in 2018, I had [00:04:20] to have an operation. It was like suddenly I couldn’t have avoided and it went wrong, and [00:04:25] I was put on medication because I thought I was going to go into sepsis and there was a whole thing. [00:04:30] And after that, my body just started shut down. It just gave up, and [00:04:35] I got sicker and sicker, and I got a diagnosis of clinical PTSD.

Emma Mashall: And then it [00:04:40] went from there where the physical symptoms got so extreme, um, that I went to functional [00:04:45] medicine. So I looked at functional medicine rather than the NHS. The NHS weren’t being particularly helpful. [00:04:50] And I was told, oh, we think you’ve got Lyme disease, or we think you’ve been poisoned by a black mould. [00:04:55] And then I went to this hospital in Mexico, raised money and had some really [00:05:00] serious treatment over there, and it was really interesting. What kind of treatment? Well, so I had ozone [00:05:05] therapy where they take your blood out and then put it back in when it’s been oxygenated. And then I also had [00:05:10] something called hyperthermia where they put you to sleep and they basically comatose you for like, [00:05:15] um, I think it’s around ten hours and they basically heat your body up really slowly to a [00:05:20] temperature of 109 degrees, and they hold you there for as long as possible to kill off any [00:05:25] kind of infections that you’ve got. Because that’s the problem, is that when I got to this hospital, I didn’t have Lyme. [00:05:30] I did have some sort of, you know, toxin issue. But the problem was, is that my immune system wasn’t working and [00:05:35] my nervous system wasn’t working. And my endocrine system. Wasn’t working, so I had some infections [00:05:40] that my body couldn’t fight off bacterial and viral. And then, yeah, they [00:05:45] just put me through this really serious treatment. But unfortunately the treatment then resulted in me not being able to [00:05:50] walk.

Emma Mashall: So the knock on effects were huge. And then from there I started to have seizures. [00:05:55] And so it was just this kind of like getting worse and worse and worse. But one of the interesting things that I will [00:06:00] mention, because I’m talking to dentists, is that one of the things that they have at this hospital is a bio [00:06:05] dentist, okay. And the reason being is because they were checking people’s teeth, they checked all of my teeth and [00:06:10] they were looking for things like fillings, silver fillings and that kind of thing to look for toxin overload. [00:06:15] And I just found that really interesting because I was just like, oh, okay, cool. There’s there’s a whole spectrum of health here that [00:06:20] like, we just I wouldn’t know about this. I had no idea. So we started to just again open me up. But I [00:06:25] was seriously ill at this point with no kind of resolution and no cure, because that’s what I think we look for [00:06:30] when we’re ill is like, I need the cure. And there wasn’t a clear path. It was just like, we’re going to try this and we’re [00:06:35] going to try that and blah, blah, blah. And I basically ended up carrying on different treatments under like functional medicine [00:06:40] for the next year with no improvements. It just got worse and worse [00:06:45] and worse. And by this point, my mental health was absolutely appalling, like serious [00:06:50] PTSD and just yeah, no real will to live, to be honest. And [00:06:55] it got to a point where I met somebody and she just kind of transformed my understanding of health, [00:07:00] where she was like, you have been through so much trauma, but it’s [00:07:05] been very physical.

Emma Mashall: Um, you know, we have different types of trauma and yours has been extremely physical. [00:07:10] Your body is going to be holding on to those physical experiences because trauma is held [00:07:15] in the body. So you need to start understanding how to work with your body and your nervous system to release [00:07:20] this stuff. And it just was like thing. And I was like, okay, [00:07:25] this makes sense. So I dove into the research around the nervous system and [00:07:30] neuroscience, the mind body connection and how everything is connected and, you know, the gut brain connection [00:07:35] and all these different connections that we we have and how the nervous system impacts your immune system and your endocrine [00:07:40] system. And I was like, okay, this is all starting to make a lot more sense. But this is now pandemic [00:07:45] time. So there’s no resource and no support. I should have 100% have [00:07:50] had at least a therapist and also some physio, because when I couldn’t walk, it affected my legs [00:07:55] and I had nothing. So I was like, I woke up one day and I just said to myself, like, [00:08:00] you’ve got to start moving. And the only thing that I felt like I could do was [00:08:05] dance. And I just promised myself like one song a day come from the music industry, where I was [00:08:10] out all the time.

Emma Mashall: I had a life style that incorporated dance. Most days. I [00:08:15] hadn’t done this. I hadn’t had fun like this in a really long time. So I just started putting on tunes and moving [00:08:20] my body, and I started to feel a difference, and I started to see improvements in both [00:08:25] my physical health, my legs, and also in the way that my anxiety was and PTSD symptoms. [00:08:30] And I was just like, okay. So again, furthered the research. And I looked specifically not just around [00:08:35] stress and trauma in the body. I looked at dance and movement and even rhythm [00:08:40] and certain types of tempos and sound and all that kind of stuff. And I just basically [00:08:45] started to piece together all these different aspects. And then at the end of 2020, [00:08:50] I decided that London was a bit too much for me, pandemic wise. I’d just been through two [00:08:55] full years of illness. I was like, I can’t do a whole nother year of this. So I left and I went back to Mexico [00:09:00] because Mexico was quite open, so went back to Mexico and used the time [00:09:05] to not only recover fully, but also study. So I studied how [00:09:10] indigenous tribes and communities utilise dance and music [00:09:15] all the time. And if you look at anywhere that’s got indigenous culture and that spans [00:09:20] across so many different continents, every single aspect of that culture has [00:09:25] music and dance incorporated. And we in the West don’t particularly utilise [00:09:30] it like that. It’s very much based around hedonism. So when we go out it’s like, oh, have a drink [00:09:35] and we’ll just yeah, we’ll go out, have a drink and I’ll listen to this.

Emma Mashall: Um, I’ll go to this festival or listen to this concert [00:09:40] or whatever. It’s always based around hedonism. And in other cultures that’s not necessarily [00:09:45] the case. And I just was like, okay, cool. Well, we need to do something here with this because [00:09:50] the science is saying this. The science is saying that dance is extremely helpful and [00:09:55] the nervous system and etc., etc., the neuroscience. But also we’ve just kind of [00:10:00] forgotten this very ancient healing practice. So I [00:10:05] put something together as a body of work, um, utilising the science in [00:10:10] particular. And this is where I really didn’t want to waste time, but also like make [00:10:15] it as a trust me bro situation, which is a lot of wellness. [00:10:20] It is that there’s no there’s no data, there’s no science, there’s no studies. And [00:10:25] I think that there is a place for science, and there’s also a place for feeling they both [00:10:30] coexist. And that’s what I wanted to create is something that I can say. This is why it works. And [00:10:35] now we’re going to do it and you’re going to feel it. And that’s what I’ve managed to create. And people have really, [00:10:40] really taken to it and it’s taken off and it’s done really, really well. And and it helps people [00:10:45] with everything. But the main thing that it kind of helps people with, most importantly is just releasing stress. [00:10:50] So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Such a fascinating story, like so many things to say on that. And [00:10:55] like one of the things that I want to touch upon because I think it’s really interesting and I want your views on this, [00:11:00] is that about alternative medicine? Because we work in a profession where we’re very much [00:11:05] taught traditional medicine, you know, um, there is a diagnosis to your symptoms [00:11:10] and we don’t look outside the body. Um, there’s also been recently in the press [00:11:15] a lot around amalgam fillings and amalgam fillings. We’re one of the last countries [00:11:20] now to basically put a stop to it. And obviously a lot of dentists studies have basically [00:11:25] shown that actually they don’t cause any harm in your body, and they can cause more harm [00:11:30] if you remove it in an unsafe way. So like the actual like vapour can get inhaled, etc.. So [00:11:35] you have to use something called the rubber dam. Or some dentists use like a kind of extractor machine, etc.. And [00:11:40] I think now there’s been this massive emergence of like biological dentists and they’re actually challenging [00:11:45] the status quo and challenging the system. And as you know, she actually saw one [00:11:50] of my dentists. He sort of brands himself as a biological dentist, and he very much believes [00:11:55] in stuff. So he does like ozone. He removes the amalgam with like an amalgam extractor. You know, Doctor Richard, [00:12:00] he does like vitamin infusions as part of like when he does like his implant treatments and stuff like [00:12:05] that. And I have to say that, like, I still believe traditional medicine [00:12:10] is needed. Totally. And I think, you know, I had a friend of mine that also was in Mexico and [00:12:15] she was like, oh, I’ve got a wisdom tooth pain. And I tried putting cloves on it and it didn’t get better. [00:12:20] And obviously she did need antibiotics. But I do think it’s the integration of, you know, [00:12:25] that functional medicine with modern day medicine, which is really important. What’s your thoughts on it? [00:12:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult one. Tell me, because look, the you [00:12:35] can make a good or bad story up about anything. Right. Because what’s the alternative to amalgam [00:12:40] encompass it. Right. It’s a plastic, you know, plastics in your [00:12:45] mouth all the time. The free plastics that you get from the bonds, you can make a bad story up about that. [00:12:50] Do you know you can you can do research and find out how much problems that causes. I [00:12:55] mean, I’m interested in in why you thought that dance [00:13:00] was the answer. When, you know, doctors are telling you, you know. [00:13:05]

Rhona Eskander: Otherwise. But I think but I think it’s the functional piece as well that helped her because that led her [00:13:10] to people that said to her, like, you know, it starts from within. Like if you read books like, [00:13:15] I’m sure we’ve discussed this, the body keeps the score or the body says, no, it’s all [00:13:20] about that stuff. Because all of these physical diseases. Six months ago, I slipped my disc. [00:13:25] He knows I was in here. I tried to ignore it. It was 100% because of what was going on physically, mentally [00:13:30] in my mind. Like, yeah, okay, fine. I actually physically fell in the gym, but my mind was [00:13:35] somewhere else and all this stress had been building up and it was like crash. Totally. And I was like, that’s not [00:13:40] a coincidence that I slipped my disc, you know? So I think that, like, you know, you understanding that [00:13:45] is so important. And for me, I’m hearing that like the movement was freedom. [00:13:50] Yeah. But do you think then as well there’s like something that you’re doing [00:13:55] can be integrated into mainstream medicine.

Emma Mashall: Well yes. I [00:14:00] would love to be able to have this available on the [00:14:05] NHS. The red tape however, who knows. You know, [00:14:10] we will need to get it to a point of clinical trials, um, which is doable [00:14:15] with the right backing and with the right funding. But clinical trials cost money. But that’s when we’ll be able [00:14:20] to see the different chemical releases, you know, during a session for each person, the [00:14:25] way that the brainwaves move, etc.. Because I’ve got my theories on it. I know what I believe [00:14:30] makes sense for this work. And also I have done so much research [00:14:35] now, um, I just don’t have the piece of paper. However, [00:14:40] I’m also not ignorant to the fact that the pieces of paper are important. Um, and [00:14:45] so I partnered with a neuroscientist on this work who has, you know, [00:14:50] 15 years in chronic pain. And she she works specifically on understanding the mind body [00:14:55] connection. And she’s a really interesting person. But the way in which she came to me, I [00:15:00] mean, it was only from God at this point. Like she, um, did my method [00:15:05] for six months. So she’d been following my journey. She’d been following me online. I put this out when I first started. [00:15:10] It was a case study. It was a theory. It was like, I believe this works. It’s worked for me. But I can’t charge people for [00:15:15] this because I don’t, you know, I need to see if it works for other people. So I did it for free and then I upped [00:15:20] it to donations. But people were just coming for free. I was teaching it five times a week on zoom. She [00:15:25] was one of those people. She did it for six months. I don’t know who people are when [00:15:30] they come.

Emma Mashall: Just similarly to if you go to a gym class, you don’t know who people [00:15:35] are in that gym class, what they do, etc. we don’t. Talk about that. You’re there to move and then you leave. So similar concept [00:15:40] with this. So when she told me, um, no sorry. I then [00:15:45] basically put a call out to medical professionals via Instagram because I was like, we’re [00:15:50] starting to get some good traction here. Like there’s press coming. I want to make sure that I’ve, you [00:15:55] know, I’m not a bit delusional, and I want to have some medical professionals that really do believe [00:16:00] in what I’m talking about. So I asked people, I had pharmacologists get in touch, I had therapists, I had doctors, [00:16:05] I had various types of people get in touch and say, yeah, if you want to put my name on your kind of backing, then I’m, I’m [00:16:10] for it. And she was one of those people. And so when I read the email and it said neuroscientist, [00:16:15] I was like, oh my goodness. Like, this is what I need to do. I need to partner with this [00:16:20] neuroscientist. And only ten minutes before, I’d been having a conversation with my assistant [00:16:25] at the time to say to her, I need to find a neuroscientist to back this body of work. Like, for sure, [00:16:30] ten minutes later, Dawn shows up. So she’s written out from a neuroscientific perspective [00:16:35] what happens in a session and therefore what she believes happens, especially [00:16:40] even in regards to chemical release. You know, acetylcholine and and serotonin release [00:16:45] and even dopamine and understanding those kind of chemicals. Now, to have the actual proof that that works we would need [00:16:50] to go clinical. And that’s just financial at this point.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a few things about what you’re saying. [00:16:55] I mean, in in the scientific world, often the breakthrough happens [00:17:00] 20 years before. Totally the general sort of acceptance of it. [00:17:05] Because you do a clinical trial, no one’s still going to accept that 100%. Yeah. You need multi-center [00:17:10] clinical trials from all over the world with blind clinical trials and the other. But, um, [00:17:15] but if you’re a 100% sure of it within yourself, then the [00:17:20] challenge to spreading this story to me is more a marketing challenge [00:17:25] than a than a clinical one 100%.

Emma Mashall: Because like I said before, it was about me making [00:17:30] sure that it wasn’t just working on me. Right. And then so when I started to see that it was working on people with diagnoses [00:17:35] from autoimmune to cancer to.

Payman Langroudi: Exercise, right. I mean, of course people [00:17:40] accept exercise is good for you. Yeah. And this is exercise, right?

Emma Mashall: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: But but but I did I [00:17:45] did your Ted as as in your Ted talk I like did you get.

Rhona Eskander: Up and do it. He [00:17:50] messaged me going like can we do the movement tomorrow? I was like, sure it was.

Payman Langroudi: It was like midnight last [00:17:55] night. What I looked.

Rhona Eskander: Like, he’s like dancing.

Payman Langroudi: But but the you know, the thing that was for me was [00:18:00] amazing about it was dancing for me doesn’t come naturally at all. I mean, you come from a music background [00:18:05] for me. Yeah. I was a raver in the 90s. Yeah. Then you are. But the Closing [00:18:10] your Eyes piece. Yeah. Was really the important thing. Where he just free? Yeah. Now some people can just [00:18:15] be free with their eyes open. I can’t, even if there’s no one in the room. I just find this [00:18:20] awkward, you know? But the sort of the the almost the meditation [00:18:25] part of it. Yes. Was really. Tell me about that. The link from the actual exercise to the mind. [00:18:30]

Emma Mashall: So there’s two components to the method. And the reason why it works is the following. Your [00:18:35] peripheral nervous system is essentially a sensory and motor [00:18:40] system. So it’s governed by sensors and movement. And that’s essentially [00:18:45] what keeps us alive as well. And it also allows us to create a perception of the world. So [00:18:50] when we do the method and the reason that we close the eyes is because as soon as [00:18:55] you close your eyes, your other senses heighten, and the senses that we’re looking for to heighten [00:19:00] are sound and also touch. And so when we heighten those other senses, [00:19:05] your internal world is going to tell you where you’re feeling uncomfortable, perhaps [00:19:10] have tension, maybe you’re holding on to something emotional. And just by creating [00:19:15] the awareness, you can then move it. And the key aspect as to why this works. So you just said [00:19:20] you’re a raver in the 90s, then you can dance because we’re not doing choreography. [00:19:25] If you put me into a dance class right now, I’d be the worst person in there. I can’t be told how to move [00:19:30] and but I can move. I have rhythm that is the key component to this. [00:19:35] It’s allowing people to go back into their natural instinct, which is finding the rhythm. And [00:19:40] you.

Rhona Eskander: Think everyone has.

Emma Mashall: That? Yeah, they’ve done studies on babies. So there’s loads of studies on babies. [00:19:45] Um, to.

Payman Langroudi: The indigenous.

Emma Mashall: Thing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, totally. Almost every single [00:19:50] one, almost every single, every single sort of culture has it exactly dances.

Emma Mashall: It’s [00:19:55] natural. And what we do is, you know, the ego is the stories, right? The [00:20:00] ego is, oh, I look stupid and oh, no, I can’t dance. And all these, all the stories. If you just [00:20:05] look at a baby, that baby will just move to music without any care in the world.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing when you see [00:20:10] that.

Emma Mashall: And that is what we have naturally inbuilt into us, but [00:20:15] we’ve basically forgotten it because we’re so in our heads. So the methodology is so centred [00:20:20] around getting people back into their natural rhythm, and when you’re in your natural rhythm, [00:20:25] you’re going to then move your body naturally without any kind of, [00:20:30] um, block or resistance. And that in turn, is going to allow you to process [00:20:35] what is really going on in your mind, because remember. The body is essentially the reflection of your subconscious. [00:20:40] That’s really what they’ve discovered. That’s the mind body connection. That’s also where we use the word psychosomatic. [00:20:45] You know, when somebody comes and presents with all these symptoms and doctors are like, well, there’s nothing wrong with you. It’s like [00:20:50] it’s in the mind, but it doesn’t mean it’s not physically happening.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, and I hate that. That’s why I talk about medical [00:20:55] gaslighting so often. Like where and talk Payman about this, where, as I said, they can’t [00:21:00] see the physical symptoms. They’re like, you’re fine. It’s in your head, you know, and you [00:21:05] know, we had a podcast recently where someone said, you know about that expression as well. Like, I was [00:21:10] in my head, you know, like it’s it’s it’s, you know, it’s such a profound, uh, [00:21:15] statement. And I think the indigenous piece, like you said. And when will you go? Because I spend a lot of time [00:21:20] in South America and these countries, and I find it really healing, being around indigenous people that really connect [00:21:25] with their own culture. I recently went to a retreat in Costa Rica, um, [00:21:30] in a place called Brave Earth. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s like a really healing ground. They do a lot of ceremonies there, but we were there [00:21:35] for a retreat. I was with my partner, and there, um, it was called Activating [00:21:40] the Voice, which is the different but so similar to what you’re doing. So it wasn’t necessarily so. [00:21:45] It was about activating your voice because they were like singing lessons. And by the way, I’m totally tone deaf. I like cannot sing. [00:21:50] But it was also about activating your voice and sort of like finding your voice and like difficult situations. But [00:21:55] what I found really fascinating is one of the exercises of the day was think of [00:22:00] a song that you know from your childhood, which is related to your like, culture. [00:22:05]

Rhona Eskander: So I suppose like an Iranian, whatever for you? Like Egyptian? I couldn’t think of one [00:22:10] song. And a lot of the South American people did like, think of some [00:22:15] songs. And then there was one guy who was actually from like a little place near Cuba, and [00:22:20] he remembered a song and he actually googled what the song was. And he they had been singing as a childhood. [00:22:25] And in the song, um, it was actually he had no idea, but it was linked to [00:22:30] the ancestors that were shipped over from the slave trade. And as part [00:22:35] of torment, they had to pick up like a really hot stone and pass it around. And [00:22:40] if they dropped it, they’d get shot. And this is the slaves. And he got really emotional because as a child, [00:22:45] when he sang it, he didn’t know it was a bit like ring a ring o roses, [00:22:50] a pocketful of yeah, like it’s about the plague. Do you see what I mean? And like these things, like [00:22:55] born out of something. But what I’m trying to say is there’s such depth in, as I said, like these songs [00:23:00] and these movements that relate to ancestors, which is actually so important, like to who we are [00:23:05] now, 100%.

Emma Mashall: I mean, the drum is the most instrument in the world. [00:23:10] It falls across every culture because it was used in war. And so when we were all [00:23:15] well, when the British were out colonies and everything, you know, drum [00:23:20] was as part of every single war that existed. So when we’re talking about ancestral, [00:23:25] we do recognise the drum. And also they’ve linked the drum as well to, to our heartbeat. [00:23:30] So the music that we play in movement is medicine. I’ve basically just [00:23:35] modernised this concept where we used house music, we used drum and bass, we [00:23:40] used reggae, we used music that has got percussion. Um, because that is the easiest [00:23:45] way to connect people back into their body. It’s that simple. Because of the percussion is such [00:23:50] a felt instrument. Um, whereas if you’re listening to, um, [00:23:55] I don’t know, even like a saxophone, it’s much more emotive, but it’s you feel it in a different [00:24:00] kind of way. It’s not necessarily going to affect the way your body is moving. Um, so [00:24:05] with that in mind, like it’s all just been about like kind of, yeah, modernising this work [00:24:10] as best as possible because there’s no doubt in my mind it works. There’s just no doubt [00:24:15] in my mind. This is so inherently in every single person. It’s just about [00:24:20] activating it for them in a slightly different capacity. And like you say, the marketing and [00:24:25] the language. Like when I first started doing this, I was using words like trauma and healing, [00:24:30] and I don’t use any of that anymore because I don’t think it attracts [00:24:35] as many people. When you use that language. It’s not to say that and you.

Rhona Eskander: Think it [00:24:40] does, don’t you.

Emma Mashall: Think it does? Yeah, but it doesn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Because when you’ve done your own work and I think [00:24:45] it’s a thing when you’ve done your own work, you’re like, I’m going to attract the same people that want to be healed just.

Payman Langroudi: On this pod. [00:24:50] Yeah. These words have become normalised to me. Yeah. See, a year ago, a [00:24:55] year ago, you used to talk about trauma and all that. Like, what the hell are you talking?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. And he was like, babes, you’re so damaged. I [00:25:00] was like, I’m not. He literally like damaged goods. I’m like, I’m not. Because, like, [00:25:05] I’m like. Because you think EMS. And like, that’s why we connected. It’s like. Because when you’ve done the work, these words [00:25:10] like even I’ve now been introduced to like, ancestral trauma. Do you know what that means? Like, that’s literally like your [00:25:15] ancestors passing down stuff in their literal DNA, you know, like that’s a [00:25:20] huge thing. Epigenetic epigenetics. Exactly. And it’s a massive thing. You can even get it on like 23 a meal or [00:25:25] something like that. You know, you can and it’s kind of shoved under the carpet, but it’s massively a thing. So [00:25:30] it’s funny, but I think you isolate people like as you said, and there’s like it’s like Payman [00:25:35] knows as well. There’s been a few. It’s been like, oh, not sure if Rona can talk about mental [00:25:40] health because she’s like been through her mental health. And I’m like, yeah. And I literally like actually screenshotted [00:25:45] on my stories. And hundreds of people were like, that makes you the biggest advocate. Exactly. [00:25:50] That makes you the biggest advocate because it’s like saying it. It’s like saying to someone, you can’t talk about a recession [00:25:55] because you’ve not been through a recession, because you have been through a recession. You know what I mean? It’s just kind of crazy. [00:26:00] But yeah, because.

Payman Langroudi: Take us through the the initial journey. Yeah. First class. [00:26:05] What happens.

Emma Mashall: So, um, the everyone is seated [00:26:10] for the first half an hour. Um, the music is at a tempo [00:26:15] of anything under like one, two, five bpm. So [00:26:20] from the off you basically get, I get everyone to put their hands over their heart and just start [00:26:25] to tap, tap and move. They get the instructions that the two rules that we have with movement is medicine, is that [00:26:30] you have to keep your eyes closed like you saw, and then the other one is don’t stop moving. And [00:26:35] the reason that we don’t stop moving is because if somebody freezes because they feel something uncomfortable, well then [00:26:40] guess what? It’s staying blockage. Yeah, you’re staying in it. You’re staying in the uncomfortability if [00:26:45] you’re constantly moving, which is why the music is so specific, then [00:26:50] whatever feeling comes to the surface, um, you will move it. [00:26:55] And so when we’re working with the body, we work from the feet all the way [00:27:00] up to the top of the head. And there’s a lot of science that goes into this as well, a lot of anatomy. So, for example, [00:27:05] the bottoms of the feet covered in thousands of nerve endings. If you’re stuck in your head, touch your feet. [00:27:10]

Emma Mashall: Simple as that, because it will awaken your nervous system to realise that you’re present. And when [00:27:15] you’re present and you’re present in the in in your body, that’s your anchor. That’s the [00:27:20] moment to know. Oh, look, I’m safe actually, because when we go into these responses, when we go into fight or [00:27:25] flight or even freeze, when we’re in overwhelm, there’s just a it’s just a signal to be like, [00:27:30] we’re not safe. So all you have to do is remind yourself that you’re safe. So the easiest [00:27:35] way to do that is by working with your physical body, because your body is always present. So, [00:27:40] um, start at the feet and then we work our way up. And so we go, um, [00:27:45] even to like, the backs of the knees, a place that no one touches. When was the last time you sat there and, like, touched [00:27:50] the backs of your knees intentionally? The reason being is because we’ve got loads of lymph nodes in the backs of the knees, and the [00:27:55] lymph is literally all it’s needed to work well is a bit of movement and a bit of touch. [00:28:00] That’s it. And it just shows you.

Payman Langroudi: Playing and yeah, and your sort of guiding. [00:28:05]

Rhona Eskander: We’re gonna have to try it. We are going to try it. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: I’m guiding this.

Rhona Eskander: Whole can we have a guided bit in like a little bit. [00:28:10] Let’s do it. Pay. Yeah. What kind of music do you like? I know Emma has to decide. Um, question [00:28:15] for you then. How does this differ to ecstatic dance? Do you know about ecstatic dance? [00:28:20] Emma can explain, but she can do so.

Emma Mashall: These are. This is one of the terminologies that I don’t use. Okay. [00:28:25] Um, and yeah, I’ll tell you why. So ecstatic dance. Um, and and [00:28:30] that kind of community, it’s just based on the fact of the more ancestral tribal kind [00:28:35] of, um, cultural aspect of the fact that dance can be used for healing. It’s like sober [00:28:40] raven. Right? And, um, it works with people. It’s got a beautiful community, etc. [00:28:45] we don’t have necessarily the same ethos [00:28:50] as Ecstatic Dance because of the first bit. The first bit is the real solid [00:28:55] like moment of the method. Every single part of that method is taken [00:29:00] from science. Um, there’s data to back it as to why we’re doing it. I also [00:29:05] tell people why we’re doing it as we move through it, um, so that they can take it away and [00:29:10] use it in daily life. Now ecstatic dance goes to an ecstatic dance class. You’ll just be told to get up and start dancing. So [00:29:15] like you just said, oh, I feel a bit awkward and you know, that kind of thing. And you’re, you’re, I guess your role [00:29:20] or your job in ecstatic dance is to break through feeling uncomfortable and just get on with it. We take [00:29:25] away the aspects of feeling uncomfortable by putting people into their physical body so [00:29:30] deeply that by the time their eyes are open and that they stand up and we go into the dance [00:29:35] segment, they don’t care. They don’t care who’s in the room. They’re just they’re feeling connected, feeling [00:29:40] free. If they also want to continue to shut their eyes, they shut their eyes. And there’s there’s always just like, [00:29:45] um, there’s a really funny episode of Peep Show that people love.

Rhona Eskander: Peep show.

Emma Mashall: Peep show. [00:29:50] So good. Um, when, uh, he takes Mark to Rainbow rhythms, you know, that’s ecstatic dance. [00:29:55] And they get people to go up to each other. Have you seen that one? You kind of.

Rhona Eskander: Do these, like, movements, but you’re really. You’re [00:30:00] really like this. Yeah. And then, like, can you imagine like my fiance, like in Costa Rica, it was [00:30:05] the first time. But he’s so open. Like he was so amazing on the retreat. But I felt like a bit awkward because they do this [00:30:10] kind of like, you’re like this. Imagine me doing this like. And like I’m a I’m a sober dancer. Like I’m a sober raver, [00:30:15] you know that. But I’m never going to be like this, you know what I mean? Like, it’s just it.

Emma Mashall: We don’t do any of [00:30:20] that. Yeah, it’s what we encourage is, for example, when you’re stressed, [00:30:25] you naturally make your body small. So it affects your posture, uh, because your muscles are [00:30:30] going to contract and especially as well your hips and your lower back. And then that affects the rest of your spine. [00:30:35] So what we do. Is to get people to do opening exercises again, [00:30:40] all actually backed by science, to really stretch out and open their bodies up. So [00:30:45] even when they’re standing up and they’re moving and they’re dancing, they’re going to naturally [00:30:50] just I’m not telling them how to move. They’re moving now, however they want to move. Some people, it [00:30:55] might just be a little like, you know, and for other people it might just be a little two step. There’s no [00:31:00] rules. But what I’m kind of guiding people to do is like, make your body big and like, [00:31:05] you know, the more you move, the more you release the like. It’s that kind of just [00:31:10] freedom and letting yourself go like you would at a rave or a festival, which is where I got [00:31:15] so much inspiration for this, because even though hedonism is rife within [00:31:20] that culture, like if you go to certain raves and you go to certain festivals and you’re [00:31:25] not focusing on the hedonism and you’re just focusing on like, look at the joy. Yeah, you know, [00:31:30] you don’t you don’t drink or anything like that’s just your, your life. It’s not it’s not any different [00:31:35] to you. And you’re not somebody that can go to these things and just be like, well, I’m not having a good time. You’re there to connect to the music [00:31:40] and you will move and dance as, as you will, and.

Payman Langroudi: Also to each other, right? To each other.

Emma Mashall: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve [00:31:45] ever felt to being part of a tribe. There we go.

Rhona Eskander: Right when you’re out with your mates, you mean.

Payman Langroudi: And that [00:31:50] back then in the 90s? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Lol. And 6 a.m.. Yeah of course.

Emma Mashall: Totally. [00:31:55] But this comes back to Polyvagal theory. So Polyvagal theory is this again is [00:32:00] this component of like how do we build safety and resilience within the nervous system. So it’s written by this guy called Stephen Porges. [00:32:05] And it’s just such an amazing body of work because he looks at the vagus nerve. And the vagus nerve is such a huge thing now [00:32:10] in mental health. But the vagus nerve, one of the components of building this like connection and [00:32:15] safety is by doing things in a group. So one of the things that we want to do when we’re anxious and depressed and [00:32:20] low is hide, like I know as well. For me, even now, yeah, I get to points where [00:32:25] I get very stressed and overwhelmed and I my default is anxiety. And [00:32:30] I know what’s happening on a logical level, but there’s still elements to me that’s just like, oh, and I [00:32:35] hide. And then as soon as I go out and as soon as I have a dance and as soon as I see my people, [00:32:40] I’m fine. Like, it’s like night and day. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Like sometimes you actually like, oh, I really don’t want to go out. [00:32:45] And, you know, when you force yourself to do it and you’re like, I’m really glad I did. It’s a bit like therapy. Yes. Like you’re like, tonight. I’m [00:32:50] like, oh my God, I got therapy tonight. I’m so tired. I just want to sleep. But like, don’t cancel, don’t cancel. Because when you’ve had therapy you’ll feel so [00:32:55] much better, you know?

Emma Mashall: Totally. And it’s the same thing with.

Payman Langroudi: This therapy.

Emma Mashall: As well. Um, I [00:33:00] don’t do therapy anymore. I’ve had a lot of therapy. Um, yeah, I see my.

Rhona Eskander: Tribe, [00:33:05] my people.

Emma Mashall: Necessarily. Um, I’ve had a lot of therapy with different kinds of therapists. [00:33:10] Um, I’ve had everything from eMDR through to counselling [00:33:15] through to hypnotherapy through to talk therapy, like standard CBT, [00:33:20] talk therapy. Um, I think it’s absolutely got its place. I think it’s so [00:33:25] important for people to understand like a level of awareness in how they feel. Um, what [00:33:30] I will say, though, is that I think that it necessarily needs to exist alongside [00:33:35] something to actually physically release. I think that those two things are super important to coexist [00:33:40] between each other. Um, you can’t always talk your way out of a feeling, [00:33:45] um, you can intellectualise a feeling and understand why it happened and where it came from. But you can’t [00:33:50] always move that feeling so true. That’s why the two things need to coexist. [00:33:55] And so that’s also for me, like, I was so sick of talking about what happened to me. You know, I [00:34:00] went I went to this therapist and that therapist, and then I’m repeating the story and just get to a point where I’m like, [00:34:05] I can’t talk about this anymore. I need to just release it. And [00:34:10] that was also a huge, you know, part of my work for me and why I needed to [00:34:15] do it. It was about me releasing these, these very difficult [00:34:20] and very traumatic experiences that had changed me. Um, but [00:34:25] I didn’t want it to change me for the worse.

Emma Mashall: I didn’t want to end up this anxious, afraid [00:34:30] of the world, you know, human being, which I easily could have gone into that that realm because [00:34:35] it was very extreme what happened to me. And it was also, um, medical trauma is [00:34:40] a very interesting type of trauma, because medical trauma is essentially done [00:34:45] by people that you’re meant to trust and these doctors that you’re being completely vulnerable [00:34:50] to. And, you know, I’m not here. I’m not trying to demonise doctors at all. It’s just [00:34:55] that with that type of trauma, it’s such a complex thing of having to unpack [00:35:00] because you are literally giving your whole body to somebody and trusting that they’re going to do the right thing [00:35:05] or do the right, or do their job properly. And for whatever reason, I just had a whole myriad [00:35:10] of like, failures that ended up and resulted in me, you know, nearly losing my life and like, [00:35:15] that kind of thing, to have to process just by talking about it. Like, even now [00:35:20] I can feel myself. I’m like, I’m getting emotional internally. I can feel it. And it’s like, I can’t [00:35:25] keep talking about it. You know, talking about it is not going to help me process it and move [00:35:30] forward, because I don’t want to be stuck there for the rest of my life, but in the past.

Rhona Eskander: And that’s the thing, because I, you know, I was speaking to [00:35:35] someone recently and they were like, you know what? I don’t know about how unpacking the past will actually help because we can [00:35:40] all like delve, delve, delve, delve, delve. And as you said, you can go as far as epigenetics. Like, I’m so traumatised [00:35:45] because like my ancestors were this or I come from like war inflicted countries, [00:35:50] but it gives you an understanding. So I think it’s important. But like you said, it doesn’t necessarily [00:35:55] help process the present. And that’s the thing. The present is one of the most important things to be in. And we [00:36:00] all know from so many philosophers that our state of happiness as being in that present [00:36:05] moment. And I think you’re right, this changing your physiological state is really important. [00:36:10] And I think the most dangerous thing now is that when people get more anxious, they get on the phone, which then gets more anxiety, [00:36:15] and then they continue to scroll, and that creates even more anxiety. And they actually don’t want to move. And like you said, [00:36:20] just putting it down and either moving or like going to meet friends can just make such a huge [00:36:25] difference.

Payman Langroudi: Could you see your Mexico experience as a positive one or a negative one in [00:36:30] the hospital?

Emma Mashall: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it didn’t.

Emma Mashall: Work. It didn’t work. No, I would [00:36:35] say it was a necessary experience rather than positive or negative. [00:36:40] Um, because it it was like, okay, I’ve been in Western medicine. [00:36:45] Right. And that didn’t work. I’ve now gone into functional medicine searching for all the answers that didn’t [00:36:50] work. It allowed me to understand how much we pedestal people and [00:36:55] look outside for the answers. So true all the time. And then [00:37:00] the levels of like, disappointment and, you know, even just pain or it’s like, oh my God, you’ve made it worse. [00:37:05] Like what? How has this happened? And on top of that paid a lot of money. You [00:37:10] know, so much money. This is the side of illness that people don’t really discuss very often because we don’t tend [00:37:15] to talk about money. But I lost everything. Like I nearly went bankrupt, you know, and I had a really [00:37:20] successful career. And so I’ve been having to rebuild from then and [00:37:25] these kind of things. They also have an impact on your mental health, like going from somebody who [00:37:30] is stable, who is okay to somebody that now is having to speak to like debt collectors. [00:37:35] And, you know, it was there was just so many aspects to how much this [00:37:40] changed my life. And so I wouldn’t say it was positive or negative, I would just say it was necessary for [00:37:45] me to reframe how much I was putting my health into other people and [00:37:50] their hands. Um, where in turn it was a case of actually, what can I do? [00:37:55] What can I actually do for myself? Take the matter.

Rhona Eskander: Into your own hands.

Emma Mashall: How can I feel a bit more empowered? And [00:38:00] then did.

Payman Langroudi: You take care of all the other stuff as well? Nutrition.

Emma Mashall: Rest. Totally. Sleep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:38:05] I mean, I would also say that at some point it probably went to a bit of an extreme.

Rhona Eskander: Really?

Emma Mashall: What way? [00:38:10] So, um, there’s a rise of orthorexia. I don’t know if you’ve [00:38:15] heard.

Rhona Eskander: Of course I think I have, I think I had orthorexia, so.

Emma Mashall: Did I, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: When you over. [00:38:20] You’re obsessed with being so healthy. So you think that all of the choices that you make are really healthy? You [00:38:25] get really defensive when people questioned you because everything’s like, in the name of health. So, for example, you’re obsessed with like, [00:38:30] calorie counting, eating zero sugar, eating zero fat. Um, also overexercising [00:38:35] and you also justify all of your health reasons because you’re so healthy and [00:38:40] everyone else is a bit jealous because you are in such a space of control, and no one else [00:38:45] can be that my body is my temple kind of energy, but it’s actually very it’s an unhealthy way to [00:38:50] mask addiction. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: And it’s like you just said there, it’s a complete coping mechanism for control. How can [00:38:55] I make as much control in my life as possible? It’s like.

Payman Langroudi: Anorexia, but with exercise and yeah, [00:39:00] no.

Rhona Eskander: It’s fine. Like you’re not completely depriving your body, but you are doing the opposite. You’re doing the opposite. But you’re [00:39:05] like, I’m only gonna eat like.

Payman Langroudi: So much as anorexia, as a control mechanism. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: So [00:39:10] and it’s not about. Yeah. It’s not about what you look like either. It’s very much about what you’re putting [00:39:15] in your yourself. Yeah. So for me it was a case of yeah. Like, you know, tiniest [00:39:20] bit of gluten. I’d freak out and like going into supermarkets and checking every label and organic. [00:39:25]

Rhona Eskander: And this and that.

Emma Mashall: It’s just a lot of fear mongering. Yeah. So much fear.

Payman Langroudi: Mongering these [00:39:30] days. Must be very.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, I think and I think that that like, that toxic narrative, [00:39:35] like it really upsets me now. My mum, um, called me the other day to tell [00:39:40] me that she saw my ex and I was like, great, you know what I mean? To tell me how, like, wonderful he looked with his new wife. [00:39:45] I was like, thanks mum. Classic. My mum, she’s entertaining. Like my mum needs her own show anyway. [00:39:50] And it turns out my mum was like, oh, you know, they’re so controlled, like they’re apparently they don’t [00:39:55] eat dinner every night and they go to bed and they, they the last meals at 6 p.m. and they go [00:40:00] to bed every night at ten and all this stuff, it’s the same as that guy, actually, Steven Bartlett had on. Did you see [00:40:05] the guy that was like, no. Attempting to be the youngest man in the world. Did you see that? And he got his [00:40:10] son’s blood injected into his body. Have you not seen it? And he’s this multi-billionaire.

Emma Mashall: I’m [00:40:15] so anti.

Rhona Eskander: Him. Yeah. So he’s this multi-billionaire. And what happened was, is that he got his bloods like [00:40:20] PRP, got it injected. He wakes up every day at 5 a.m.. His last [00:40:25] meal of the day is at 11 a.m. he then has like 1,000,001 like IV boosts [00:40:30] and everything.

Payman Langroudi: He’s trying to reverse ageing.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but he also looks really old. Ironically, I.

Payman Langroudi: Saw the clip. [00:40:35]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. But the issue.

Emma Mashall: Right. He’s a great example of somebody with [00:40:40] a severe mental health condition who is promoting it under the guise of health because he’s under [00:40:45] the guise of health.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Emma Mashall: It’s like none of this behaviour is healthy. And actually, when Stephen [00:40:50] was talking to him about his story, he literally says, like, my dad got sick. And, you [00:40:55] know, I want to keep my dad alive and I’m trying to figure it out for my dad. And it’s like, that’s the issue. Then that’s [00:41:00] clearly the problem. It’s not the fact that you want to live forever, because also life [00:41:05] is not about living, right? Yeah. That’s the purpose of being a human. You come you [00:41:10] you do your you do your time and then you go. And so having [00:41:15] this person that is under the guise of I’m doing something for the, for the benefit of health, no [00:41:20] you’re not. Plus you’re his protocol is like three grand a month. Yeah. So who are you benefiting because you’re not benefiting [00:41:25] the poor. You’re not. This is a big thing for me. It’s the ideologies [00:41:30] that exist within the wellness industry where it’s like, yeah, be healthy for [00:41:35] X amount of money. And it’s like, okay, so we’re really making health now [00:41:40] a class system. That’s really what we’re doing. Yeah. And that is such a problem in the wellness [00:41:45] space.

Rhona Eskander: So the thing is I’ve got a couple of comments on that. Right. We are undergoing at [00:41:50] the moment an NHS crisis. Like there is literally like a pandemic within the health care [00:41:55] system. And that’s because the system is flawed. But my issue is, is that although [00:42:00] there are so many tools that are free and available, number one, they’re not promoted. [00:42:05] But number two, there is a massive issue and massive obstacles for people, right? So for example, Payman [00:42:10] knows very well with dentistry. Okay. There’s a huge issue. A lot of dental diseases [00:42:15] are preventable, but people don’t know how to brush their teeth, they don’t know how to floss and they don’t know what to [00:42:20] buy or what to eat. Now it’s all very well. We can provide those tools and I’m [00:42:25] sure it would make a difference. But we’re also completely ignoring the socioeconomic status [00:42:30] of people in this country. If you’ve got a woman who has five children [00:42:35] from five different partners who’s, you know, on the welfare system, and she cannot keep [00:42:40] her kids quiet, who probably have ADHD and another plethora of health issues, [00:42:45] you know, telling her that she shouldn’t smoke, it’s probably the only thing she wants to do. And going downstairs [00:42:50] and getting a McDonald’s and a pack of fags, it’s much easier for her than, you know, to post something [00:42:55] or to make easy health choices. Don’t be like that. Don’t be classist.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:43:00] a bit. It’s a bit, um, what’s the word? Not judgemental, but like, um, [00:43:05] you know, the what you’re saying is all well and good. [00:43:10]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but we have to make it easier for them. We cannot assume that they’ve got these choices. So.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:43:15] look, the choice the choice that you’re talking about, put one song on a day. Yeah. [00:43:20] Also, everyone’s got a phone. This is.

Emma Mashall: Education. Yeah. This is the key because. [00:43:25] So my whole business model is built on [00:43:30] education. So when people understand why [00:43:35] it works, they do the how exactly. Otherwise they don’t do it. It’s all well and good. [00:43:40] We know that smoking is not good for you. Of course we know. But yeah, everyone’s still smoking and eating McDonald’s. [00:43:45] Yeah, we’re still doing it if you’re actually somebody that’s looked into it. [00:43:50] But if you’re somebody that’s actually looked into certain things [00:43:55] or studies or whatever it is, and you start to understand why something is good or bad [00:44:00] or what they found, etc., you’re more likely to either do it or not do it now. For example, [00:44:05] for me, I use gluten as an example. Right when I went through this whole like, I’m going to be so [00:44:10] healthy and I can’t eat any gluten and whatever. When I got so fed up and realised that the orthorexia [00:44:15] tendencies were probably there and I went kind of the reverse, I was like, I’m eating all the gluten I’ve ever. [00:44:20] All I’m eating is pizza, give.

Rhona Eskander: Me bread, bread.

Emma Mashall: Every day. And I ended up feeling terrible [00:44:25] because I, I definitely don’t do very well with gluten. Yeah. Like is that simple. They said to me for coeliac recently [00:44:30] just to see. So I think that when you kind of go [00:44:35] through this like it’s like a roundabout, you’re just like, oh, is it this is it, that is it, this is it that. And you try and [00:44:40] find like your balance within all of this stuff, of taking it back into a space [00:44:45] of empowerment where you’re making the choice for yourself, rather than if a practitioner [00:44:50] told me, which they did at one point, you can’t eat any of these foods. What do I want to do? [00:44:55] I want to go and eat the foods that they’ve told me I can’t eat 100%. But the thing is.

Rhona Eskander: Like Payman when they were talking [00:45:00] about because, um, I spoke to many TV channels in the summer about [00:45:05] when it was like suddenly the doors were closed on children on the NHS, as in, like people, [00:45:10] kids couldn’t get an NHS appointment. And there was a huge debate, I think it was with BBC [00:45:15] and the debate was is it the parents fault? Basically, you know, with the child that’s like developing [00:45:20] all these cavities. And it was really sad because I think it was quite remarkable to see that so many [00:45:25] parents didn’t actually have a basic knowledge. And some of them, as I said, because of their socioeconomic [00:45:30] status. And they have this screaming child will put a bottle with Coke in their children’s [00:45:35] bottle. And I’m not saying. But like, who are we to judge? We don’t know their circumstances. I get it, I get it, [00:45:40] you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Of course I get it.

Rhona Eskander: Of course I get it. Great. I’m glad.

Payman Langroudi: But a little bit condescending, [00:45:45] man. You know, the the the the important bit of education [00:45:50] with with sugar. Interestingly, we haven’t managed to get out there.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. [00:45:55] Jamie Oliver tried. What is it?

Payman Langroudi: What is it? It’s not to do with the amount.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, it’s [00:46:00] with frequency.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t know this. It’s to do with the frequency. Totally. Yeah. So in in dental terms, [00:46:05] you can have a gigantic amount of sugar in one go is fine compared to tiny [00:46:10] amounts every day. Every day, every ten minutes. Every ten minutes. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. So that bit [00:46:15] of information we haven’t as a profession managed to get out.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But I still think I am not being condescending. I’m [00:46:20] actually being empathetic to people’s situation. And what I’m trying to say is I get it.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, I get it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:46:25] fine. We argue a lot on this, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: And people get it. People get it. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Um, um, [00:46:30] but Emma, obviously it’s wonderful that you created this method, but I want [00:46:35] to know a little bit about any mental health struggles on the way of creating this business. You talk to us about [00:46:40] going from basically bankruptcy, where you’re working in the music industry, investing everything into [00:46:45] your house, then building the movement is medicine method. Uh, how did [00:46:50] you what mental health hurdles then did you have when you had the actual business?

Payman Langroudi: I also I also get a [00:46:55] feeling you’re not 100% comfortable in the business space.

Emma Mashall: No I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:47:00] that right?

Emma Mashall: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: How did you know that?

Payman Langroudi: Just feeling.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Emma Mashall: No, I struggle [00:47:05] with business. Um, I put out a video a few days ago saying [00:47:10] that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, maybe that’s.

Emma Mashall: Why saying how much I struggle with it. Because I [00:47:15] really am good at creative and ideas and making this happen [00:47:20] and figuring out how to, like you said, about marketing, like, what’s the language we need to use to get this person? [00:47:25] Like, what’s the psychology around getting this person through the door? And I’m really good at all of that. I’m really [00:47:30] good at creating decks and making things look nice and and whatever else. I’m [00:47:35] also really good at researching, and I’m really good at making science sound easy. Um, [00:47:40] it’s something that I taught myself when I was ill. It’s like, how do you translate this into layman’s terms? So I’m [00:47:45] really good at all of that. And then I’m good at, you know, creating the content around that so that people can understand it [00:47:50] business and having to make all the decisions, having to [00:47:55] do budgets, having to figure out, I hate it. I just really, [00:48:00] really struggle.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very creative. You’re so. But she doesn’t seem to have any guilt [00:48:05] around the business, which I kind of feel like.

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean, guilt?

Payman Langroudi: I feel I.

Payman Langroudi: Feel guilt.

Rhona Eskander: What [00:48:10] do you mean guilt.

Emma Mashall: Though? I think it’s because, as well, I’m just. I’m in this zone at the [00:48:15] moment of. One of the things that’s been really challenging has been [00:48:20] separating me from the brand, because I am the face of the brand. It’s like, it’s me. Yeah, [00:48:25] it’s really similar. Um, but at the same time as well. Chelsea Dental [00:48:30] it’s, it’s, you know, it’s yours. But at the same time you also have all these [00:48:35] other projects. I just have movement is medicine right now. And it’s not to say I don’t want to go on to do other things, [00:48:40] because I do. I’ve got all these ideas about how I want to build things out. However, at the moment everything [00:48:45] goes into this business because I believe in it so much and it’s my it’s my passion, it’s my baby, it’s everything. [00:48:50] But what I’ve struggled the most with is finding [00:48:55] the balance between the business and the actual vision. And [00:49:00] I have done this on my own. So when I started as well, there’s, I call it, [00:49:05] um, shiny Magpie syndrome. So when people get really excited by shiny [00:49:10] things and they’re like, oh my God, it’s really exciting. People lie, you know, they lie, they tell [00:49:15] you, oh, I can do this, and I can do that, and I can, you know.

Rhona Eskander: She’s been burnt.

Emma Mashall: So many times, like [00:49:20] count like beyond.

Payman Langroudi: By partners or employees.

Emma Mashall: No, no no employees. Employees. [00:49:25] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But that’s just the nature of.

Emma Mashall: No. It’s been really extreme, but it’s been really extreme. [00:49:30] It’s not just been somebody, like, not really doing their job. It’s been fraud. Yeah. Somebody [00:49:35] really came in and there was a there was a fraud situation. Um, I [00:49:40] had on the week of my TEDx talk, um, the assistant that I’ve been working with for a year, ghosted [00:49:45] for no reason other than the fact that she’d done no work, um, with no explanation. [00:49:50] Um, I had to get somebody on really quickly to come and, like, kind of wipe it all [00:49:55] up, and it was just the wrong person. It just got worse and worse. So when you [00:50:00] have a business that the ideas are all solid and the ideas are all there, but structurally [00:50:05] there’s no foundation. It doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work.

Rhona Eskander: You know that.

Payman Langroudi: Any business [00:50:10] owner. Okay, so.

Rhona Eskander: I’m gonna I’m gonna listen. I’m gonna I’m gonna try I’m going to chime in, like, first of all, [00:50:15] and trust me, like, it’s an ongoing process. And I think that, like, one of the reasons why I feel really [00:50:20] passionate, I used to say I had a lot of people [00:50:25] that I looked up to. Now, unfortunately, in dentistry, despite the fact there are a [00:50:30] lot of females, there is not a lot of female led stuff within dentistry. And I hate to admit it, [00:50:35] but I’m going to say it the. Most of my role models were in dentistry were men. So there were certain men like [00:50:40] Christian Coachman was up there. Miguel Stanley, this was like 12, 15 years ago. These are huge names in the industry. [00:50:45] This was literally about 12 years ago. And I was like, how did they did it? And what I loved about them is there were connection [00:50:50] with their audiences and their connections with human beings. And I very much [00:50:55] was like, oh, you know what? Like, I don’t get why people make such a big deal about like, women [00:51:00] in business or they make I think it’s fine. I think if you show your value and you [00:51:05] go into like a boardroom or a situation, you can do the same for yourself. Payman knew me [00:51:10] when I was like a baby.

Rhona Eskander: Like I literally was like 1 or 2 years graduated. And he also knows, because I met him on [00:51:15] a course like I wasn’t actually the most, like, clinically gifted person in the world. And he loves a clinically [00:51:20] gifted person. He does. But I drove home with him that day because we lived near each other [00:51:25] and I was like, how do I make it? How do I do this stuff? And, you know, we like exchanged ideas [00:51:30] and I definitely like manifested the position I was in because what happened was, is that I was working [00:51:35] in a bad NHS practice and then I CV dropped in all these other practices. And then [00:51:40] I took on Chelsea, which had changed hands five times, and then I bought Chelsea [00:51:45] and completed a week before national lockdown. And what I’m trying to say is, is that I always feel like there’s one obstacle out the other. [00:51:50] Yeah, the difficulty was obviously you build a team, but people come and go and I think that’s one of the most difficult [00:51:55] things for me is that I’ve been extremely loyal, and what I recognise is that people are transient. [00:52:00] There are some that stay for a while and some that don’t, and I think that’s the most difficult thing because you sometimes [00:52:05] feel early days.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, early days is like that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And that’s the thing like the thing is, is [00:52:10] that you also have to accept, like, as you know, through your own healing journey, the only thing that we can [00:52:15] guarantee for definite is that nothing is permanent. Nothing is permanent. [00:52:20] And I think that’s a blessing and a curse, because sometimes you want to be like cruising with the same team for [00:52:25] ages, but sometimes they have to move with you. And unfortunately, in the last couple of years, I’ve [00:52:30] also recognised my role with as a female within the industry. That’s kind of like taken [00:52:35] me aback. And I was like, wow, it is real. Like the things that people talk about that happen to women. Like [00:52:40] it’s true.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think being a woman is being part of this?

Emma Mashall: Hmm. Um, [00:52:45] as a business owner right now, I don’t know. I can’t say [00:52:50] yes or no because I don’t feel that there’s been any situation that [00:52:55] I can say yes. This is where a good example of where I felt blocked as a woman. However, [00:53:00] in the music industry, 100%. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Tell us more.

Rhona Eskander: About the music industry.

Emma Mashall: Glass ceilings [00:53:05] beyond glass ceilings like there is. So there [00:53:10] are so many different structures in that industry. You know, it’s known as a boys club for a reason. [00:53:15] And there are so many different structures within that industry that are built so that women are always going to [00:53:20] be kept here. Um, give us an example. I mean, like [00:53:25] you look at any kind of person in a leadership position in a global record label or [00:53:30] booking agency, they’re going to be a man. Like there’s very few women in global leadership positions [00:53:35] in the music industry. And the ones that are are they’ve really [00:53:40] had to pave the way. And I was actually very fortunate. In one of my jobs, I [00:53:45] worked in a very female heavy booking agency. Um, and the experience [00:53:50] was definitely, I would say, easier because the [00:53:55] person in charge of that whole office, uh, is one of the greatest agents [00:54:00] in the world, and she’s a woman. And so it’s a very, very diverse, [00:54:05] um, makeup of men and women in that agency. You walk into other agencies? [00:54:10] No way. It’s like 90% men. Um, and [00:54:15] obviously.

Payman Langroudi: And what does it mean? Does that mean that the, the the business itself is kind of testosterone [00:54:20] driven? Yeah.

Emma Mashall: I think it’s just, um, do.

Payman Langroudi: You are you saying actually people will hold you back [00:54:25] because you’re a woman?

Emma Mashall: I think that there’s, um, maybe an internal [00:54:30] bias that people have, um, whether or not they believe in it or not, um, [00:54:35] or are aware of it or not, I think that there’s an internal bias of a woman [00:54:40] can only get to this point. I think that that really does exist. And I think that, you know, this [00:54:45] comes also from recognising traditional roles like the the nature and the notion [00:54:50] of women in business, in leadership positions is a very new concept. Um, this is I do.

Rhona Eskander: Think it’s been overdone [00:54:55] though, like, because then like I do think as well like we’ve again like I new words for you [00:55:00] dictionary out like the female and the masculine energy as well. Like I think is something [00:55:05] that we’ve over we’re like women are also like hyper focussed on like really [00:55:10] kind of embracing the masculine energy, which I think is important in some circumstances. But also being in [00:55:15] your feminine sometimes is not a bad thing either. It has to be balanced. Do you know what I mean by this, or is this Gaga [00:55:20] stuff to you? But like, you know, like for example, like.

Payman Langroudi: As in to succeed being a woman, you have [00:55:25] to act like a man.

Rhona Eskander: No, not not really. Like there’s a female masculine energy. So like some behaviours [00:55:30] that women now project are very like masculine, archetypal [00:55:35] masculine. Niches and some would say that’s bad. I think it’s bad in some circumstances. [00:55:40] I actually think it can make you ill. I think it made me ill. I think it burnt me out because I was so obsessed [00:55:45] with being this, like CEO figure like this in control a little bit. Bolshie. [00:55:50] Yeah, exactly. And to be honest, it drove me to a certain extent lol. Um, [00:55:55] so, um, it drove me to a certain extent, but then it bounced [00:56:00] me out. And sometimes, like when I’m at home now with my partner, my God, I just love it when he takes [00:56:05] control. I’m like, you can’t surrender. I just want to surrender into what we call like a more like feminine [00:56:10] sort of energy, you know, which is totally fine with me. Look after me. I’m cool, I’m cool. [00:56:15] Look after me. You know.

Emma Mashall: That’s. I’m gonna say now that is what I’ve struggled with, what she’s just described [00:56:20] there in business. That is exactly what I’ve struggled with. Where I don’t have a business partner, [00:56:25] it’s just me. So I am the face, the voice, the marketing, the socials, the researcher, [00:56:30] the curriculum builder, the teacher. I’m everything, and I don’t [00:56:35] have that other person there to just be like, huh? Can you just yeah, can you just [00:56:40] take this because and that traditionally.

Payman Langroudi: Even I’m not sure.

Payman Langroudi: That’s to do with [00:56:45] being a woman.

Emma Mashall: No, I think that that’s just to do with.

Payman Langroudi: Because I don’t think I could do a business by myself. Yeah.

Emma Mashall: I think [00:56:50] that that’s just to do with the nature of what we need as people. Which brings us back to the community aspect, which we [00:56:55] don’t really have as much.

Payman Langroudi: There are some people that are the opposite.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, I don’t know in Chelsea. Would [00:57:00] you want a partner?

Rhona Eskander: No, but I often get told, um, that I [00:57:05] don’t. I got told recently, even though I was like, maybe you should step down from being [00:57:10] a director at Chelsea just because you are really good at, like, podcasts and [00:57:15] like doing all the creative stuff. And I was like, I built this brand on my own. And like, I struggled [00:57:20] to assert authority because I really do struggle to assert authority within the business space. [00:57:25] And the thing is, as well, because I’m an empath, I take everyone’s energy constantly. So I’m drained [00:57:30] by the end of the week. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I am it’s really early days.

Emma Mashall: It is.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:57:35] is really early days. You have no idea how.

Payman Langroudi: Early it is.

Emma Mashall: No, I do, I do.

Payman Langroudi: And what it is that the the [00:57:40] rhythm and the processes kind of work themselves out. [00:57:45] Yeah. Around the person you are. Yeah. The fact that they haven’t fully worked themselves out is.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:57:50] they have.

Emma Mashall: Now this is what.

Payman Langroudi: I was saying. Business. Totally.

Emma Mashall: It’s a very young business. And the thing is, [00:57:55] I think that we all need mentors, right? We all need people that are in a much more advanced [00:58:00] position than us. That can just be. And if you take the guidance or not, it doesn’t matter. There’s somebody [00:58:05] that I haven’t had one. I’ve not really had any mentorship for the business. [00:58:10] I’ve had mentorship for my health and my research and all of that kind of stuff. Definitely [00:58:15] for the business aspect, I’m still on the hunt for like a mentor figure. And [00:58:20] recently this is where I put this video out, where I was like, I can’t do this anymore. Like, I just can’t do it on my own. [00:58:25] And then since I put that video out, it was a bit like exposure therapy because I’m [00:58:30] a big believer in exposure therapy. Yeah. Big exposure. It could be anything. It’s like [00:58:35] if you have a fear around this thing, go and do the thing because then you’ll break through your fear. And I had [00:58:40] a massive block with social media because when [00:58:45] you’re in a position where you’re helping people, people, um, [00:58:50] can become problematic for various reasons. Co-dependent it [00:58:55] I mean, we can use that word. Yeah, but also more so delusional. Um, yeah, [00:59:00] I would say delusional is probably the better word to use because they make a personality for [00:59:05] you, you know, and I’ve had to I’ve had really serious incidences with people that [00:59:10] are, you know, they’re mentally not not very well. And given the nature of my work, there’s a level [00:59:15] of understanding as to what’s happening.

Emma Mashall: But it’s also, with all due respect, it’s not my problem. You need to go and get professional [00:59:20] help. I’m teaching a class and you can either take part or not take part. I’m not [00:59:25] going to solve your trauma boundaries, huge boundaries necessary for this. [00:59:30] And but the thing is, is that this stuff has impacted me in, in ways that I don’t want to speak [00:59:35] about publicly, but it’s just like, yeah, it’s impacting me in a lot of different ways because of the nature of what was being done and [00:59:40] said. And so I think that that side of it and not having [00:59:45] a partner, both professional and personal, I don’t have a partner, so [00:59:50] I’m doing it on my own. So when I’m in my flat on my own and I finished teaching and I’m having to deal [00:59:55] with another delusional person with nowhere to go with this, it’s [01:00:00] had a really severe. I’ve basically developed social anxiety for [01:00:05] the first time in my whole life, and this is where it leads. Back to your original question of like, how was how [01:00:10] was having a business that affected your mental health? I’ve never had social anxiety. I don’t have a problem with. I [01:00:15] love people, I’ve spent my whole life around loads of people and community structures. When I was younger, [01:00:20] I used to be an athlete. I was in and out with different people all the time. Now I’m literally a bit like, [01:00:25] oh, who is that? What did I want? Same. And I don’t like that.

Rhona Eskander: Thing is is life humbles [01:00:30] you? But these experiences, like I’ve read a quote the other day that said my trauma didn’t make me [01:00:35] stronger because, you know. They say what? What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. It goes. It made me more guarded. It made me [01:00:40] get on. And I was like, that’s how I feel. Like a couple of things have happened to me in the last couple of years. And I’m like, do you know what? Like, [01:00:45] I never used to think people had bad intentions. And now I’m like, [01:00:50] your intentions are pure. And unfortunately, that’s what like life has done to me. Question for you as well is [01:00:55] this movement is medicine been explored in schools? I’m sure that there’s. Yeah, great. That’s fantastic. [01:01:00]

Emma Mashall: So, um, I am also training. I’m really big [01:01:05] on training other people. Right. So that’s so key to me. I’m one person, right. [01:01:10] So I’m sure that you’ve got, you’ve got your own methods as well that you’re like, oh, if I taught this to more people, then [01:01:15] more people would understand my way of working. Right. So with this in mind, [01:01:20] I’m like, where are the primary school teachers? Where where are the teachers? Because if I teach this to a teacher, [01:01:25] then that’s usable in their whole school. Yeah, right. And I don’t then have to go and do it. [01:01:30] But of course, until we get as many people as possible through the door to do this training and also [01:01:35] looking at things like government grants and, you know, other ways in which we can fund this. Um, [01:01:40] I do go into schools, um, and I, and I do a lot of for the younger ones, [01:01:45] it’s just kind of we just random. Yeah. But for the older ones, I teach [01:01:50] the science and I teach the theory that I teach in businesses. So I go into corporates, I go into companies, and I teach [01:01:55] the this is this is what stress is. This is how it affects you in terms of your mind and body. And here [01:02:00] how to utilise dance and music in your own body to release it. And I teach that in schools and it usually [01:02:05] is very well received. And people, you know, they really do remember it. And I also [01:02:10] do these workshops for teachers so that they can then apply that to kids they’re working with.

Payman Langroudi: I love that you said you haven’t [01:02:15] got a partner in the business, you haven’t got a partner in life. So on.

Payman Langroudi: Purpose.

Emma Mashall: No, [01:02:20] no, no, I, I mean the business partner side of things. [01:02:25] I’ve only just kind of opened myself up to that possibility. Um, because of all of these [01:02:30] ups and downs with the business, I was a bit like, yeah, don’t trust anyone. I’ve now got a really beautiful [01:02:35] team. I’m really happy with my team. Um, so I’m therefore in a position where I can open myself [01:02:40] back up again and being like, right, this is all cool. So let me see. And I’ve got somebody who I work [01:02:45] with. She is just like, she’s like my right hand. She just gets me. She understands my vision. So [01:02:50] I can also now have somebody that I can talk to and bounce off a bit in regards to that stuff and [01:02:55] in return, in terms of like life again, illness takes [01:03:00] everything. Um, I wasn’t with somebody while as [01:03:05] I was getting ill, you know, I had like kind of non serious relationships on and off things, but, um, [01:03:10] yeah, when I got ill, I wasn’t with anyone. So that was another element of like, [01:03:15] you’re doing it alone. And I had my family, but my family as well, you know, they struggled [01:03:20] with me being ill.

Rhona Eskander: Um, Emma, thank you so much for being, [01:03:25] like, so open. I think you’re such an incredible human being. And it’s been [01:03:30] such an amazing chat. I could literally chat here for like, hours and hours and hours talking to [01:03:35] you. If anyone wants to find you online, um, it’s. Do you want to tell them your handles? [01:03:40]

Emma Mashall: Yeah. So Emma the Alchemist on Instagram and then we’re also under movement is medicine [01:03:45] UK. And that’s also the website okay.

Rhona Eskander: That’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: How did you get to the Ted?

Emma Mashall: Ted, [01:03:50] um, if you type in, um, Emma marshall Ted talk, it will come up [01:03:55] on YouTube.

Payman Langroudi: I really recommend.

Payman Langroudi: That. Thank you. We recommend that you like it.

Rhona Eskander: Do we have do we have can we ask, do we have [01:04:00] time for a little like dance? Do you want to ask. Yeah, because Rich is like giving me [01:04:05] the looks. So yeah he’s giving me okay, fine. So. Okay. And that’s so sad. Okay. Well [01:04:10] anyways, we probably have to do an Instagram live. I love you messaging me at midnight being like, you’re like, can I, [01:04:15] can I? But honestly, thank you so much. It’s been such an incredible conversation. [01:04:20] And you know, I’m one of your biggest supporters. And I really recommend, you know, checking her [01:04:25] out, moving your body because it really change your physiological state to change a psychological one. [01:04:30] Exactly. That.

Emma Mashall: Is that like that?

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much. Thank you. Take care. Bye.

Laura Horton: We want patients to get their treatment plans quickly. Momentum is key. If they’re just sitting there in a pile on the dentist [00:00:05] desk, we’ve become nagging, nagging wives at work as tcos if we’re female, have you done it [00:00:10] yet? Have you done it yet? Have you done it yet? No one wants that. It’s another system. It’s another process. It [00:00:15] does improve your conversion rate, not necessarily the speed of it, but it does increase your [00:00:20] conversion rate because of the way that it the way that it’s done. But slow is best. Sometimes things are just too fast. [00:00:25]

Intro Voice: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get to [00:00:35] go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:00:45]

Payman Langroudi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Laura Horton onto [00:00:50] the podcast. Laura, I’ve known for a long time, so I think the first time I met [00:00:55] you was at, uh, Ashland. Uh, Rahul’s practice in Hartford. Yeah. [00:01:00] Back in it would have been my estimation of that is 2010. Were [00:01:05] you there?

Laura Horton: No earlier than that.

Payman Langroudi: Are you left by then? Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. All right then, 2008 [00:01:10] call it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. It might have been maybe more 2007, [00:01:15] 2008. When did you start enlightened?

Payman Langroudi: 2001. But I remember coming to the [00:01:20] course with our Cosmedin stuff and Cosmo. Then we started around 2007. [00:01:25]

Laura Horton: It probably was around then. Yeah, yeah, I remember that. That’s where I first met Prav [00:01:30] as well.

Payman Langroudi: I think what I remember was a well-oiled machine. Um, [00:01:35] I’d seen practices like that in the West End and stuff, but never, never in [00:01:40] the middle of nowhere. Like, by the way, I know Hartford’s not the middle of nowhere. Yeah, but, you know, as a local practice, [00:01:45] I’ve not seen a practice like that. And I’d been to loads and loads of practices. And [00:01:50] I remember meeting you first. You were the first person I met, right? And [00:01:55] I remember thinking, wow, what a team these guys have, like what training they’ve done. [00:02:00] And I don’t know, later on I listened to your pod with Sandeep. [00:02:05] I think I got out of that, that you were the reason why everything was so good in the practice. I [00:02:10] can’t remember, I can’t remember exactly. Um, but anyway, since since then Laura’s, [00:02:15] you know, done a bunch of jobs, but now Horton consulting really probably [00:02:20] the first sort of academy, if you like. The first organisation that would teach people [00:02:25] how to become CEOs. And timing was excellent, I guess, Laura, because [00:02:30] Tcos have become a gigantic part of Dental practice. Um, I’m sure [00:02:35] you know, there’s now lots of different people doing this sort of training, but you [00:02:40] were the first that I remember doing it. Yeah. Um, and we would definitely [00:02:45] get into that. But let’s just start with the backstory. Where did you grow up? How did [00:02:50] you end up in Dental? Why?

Laura Horton: Um, [00:02:55] so how I ended up in Dental was purely [00:03:00] because I had dropped out of my college course, and [00:03:05] my dad went mental. Yeah. And said, you’d better get yourself a job. And [00:03:10] I was like, okay. And I where we lived, there was like a community [00:03:15] centre. There was a Sainsbury’s Chinese fish and chip shop. I used to [00:03:20] work in the fish and chip shop, dentists, doctors and that’s where we were as a family in this [00:03:25] dental practice. Tiny little place. Where was it in Bishop’s Stortford. And [00:03:30] also there was a pub and I’m going to admit to underage drinking. [00:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: And.

Laura Horton: Fake ID was a thing back then. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Still is is it? [00:03:40] Yeah, of course.

Laura Horton: So I don’t know. I feel sorry for kids these days because I just used to photocopy [00:03:45] my driving license and changed the it’s got.

Payman Langroudi: No it’s got to be more digital isn’t it. Again.

Laura Horton: Um, [00:03:50] so I was going to the pub and I saw in the window they were looking for [00:03:55] a receptionist and I thought, oh, I can do that easy. And I went in and [00:04:00] applied for the job, got to Bradbury, got to be, as we used to call him. Um, [00:04:05] he said, would you like to be a dental nurse? And I thought, yeah, why [00:04:10] not? And I fainted within a few days, passed out on the floor. [00:04:15] And he wasn’t only a dentist, I don’t know how old he was when he actually started [00:04:20] working, but he did dentistry. Medicine. Max Fox [00:04:25] I think his parents were loaded, so I reckon he’s probably about 32 [00:04:30] by the time he actually finished uni. And then he just as you did quite easily just [00:04:35] set up this practice. Yeah. And he also used to get a lot of referrals. So the [00:04:40] reason I fainted is he was showing me this impacted lower rate or.

Payman Langroudi: Drilling [00:04:45] the bone.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And you know he’d he’d got it all ready you know have a good look in here [00:04:50] and you could see it lie in there and that’s it. Oh I was gone on the floor and the [00:04:55] patient was sedated and everything. And the dental nurse, Alison, who’s one of my great [00:05:00] friends to this day. Yeah, she put me in the recovery position. I remember coming round and her [00:05:05] taking my gloves off, and they were soaked with sweat. And then I felt really ill afterwards, I [00:05:10] got this horrendous headache and went home, and I was so embarrassed to go back the next day [00:05:15] and my mum was like, you’re going back? And I was like, oh, but I’m just really embarrassed. My mum really embarrassed [00:05:20] and she said, it doesn’t matter. My mom was a nurse. She said, everyone faints in this line of work, get back to [00:05:25] work. I was like, okay. And I went back.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum sort [00:05:30] of the enforcer in the house or.

Laura Horton: No, my dad.

Payman Langroudi: My dad was. Yeah. [00:05:35]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it you, by the way, in your house?

Laura Horton: It is Payman. [00:05:40]

Payman Langroudi: I kind of figured that, but I.

Laura Horton: Try to be very delicate. [00:05:45] Mhm. Well, maybe come back to that. Okay. Um, but yeah, my [00:05:50] mum I guess if my mum, she’s always had a message which is do [00:05:55] what makes you happy. And this was, you know, one of those times with this college course I wasn’t happy, [00:06:00] I hated it, it wasn’t what I expected it to be. And I was [00:06:05] like.

Payman Langroudi: What was the cause?

Laura Horton: I was like, travel and tourism. Um, I decided to do it because [00:06:10] I liked holidays.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s a good a reason as any, right? Yeah.

Laura Horton: I didn’t know what I wanted to do. [00:06:15] I had no clue what I wanted to do in life. So I thought, well, I like holidays. I’ll go and do this. [00:06:20] Travel and tourism. Oh, it was the most boring thing I’ve ever experienced in my life.

Payman Langroudi: At what point did you [00:06:25] switch from someone who drops out of courses, didn’t know what you want to do with yourself to this sort of hyper focussed person [00:06:30] that I met.

Laura Horton: I, I would say when I started working as a dental [00:06:35] nurse. So Doctor Bradbury and then. Yeah, straight away Doctor Bradbury said, right, all my nurses are [00:06:40] qualified. You don’t have to be qualified. But all my nurses are qualified. So you’re starting [00:06:45] the course. So off I went and did the course. Welwyn Garden City every Wednesday [00:06:50] I had my driving license and I took one of the other girls from the practice who wasn’t yet able to [00:06:55] do the course because she couldn’t drive. So we went together. So that was quite nice. So I did [00:07:00] that. And I kid you not, the day I got my letter through saying I’d qualified, [00:07:05] I actually had to go home at lunchtime to check the post because that night [00:07:10] I was starting my radiography qualification at, um, Hertfordshire University. [00:07:15] He’d already booked me on it. So you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Fast tracking?

Laura Horton: Yeah, he was really into [00:07:20] progression and development of his team and this is way back when. So [00:07:25] I loved that and that’s why I wanted to work there. I really enjoyed that. [00:07:30] Mhm. That you know he wants to keep pushing you on. And then while I [00:07:35] was there two of the nurses went on to do one hygiene, the other [00:07:40] hygiene and therapy. So he was very much about supporting and moving you forward. He [00:07:45] didn’t just want a dental nurse or being a dental nurse.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I really want to ask [00:07:50] you this question because you’ve seen dental practice from lots of different angles. [00:07:55] Then you’ve seen a lot of dental practices, albeit I reckon the ones that you’re seeing, they [00:08:00] probably skew a certain way because of, you know, TCO. Right. So you’re not going into [00:08:05] loads of full on NHS places anymore. No, but I guess you must have worked in a few, right?

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:08:10] definitely.

Payman Langroudi: So the question of progression. Yeah, I come across too [00:08:15] many dentists that when I ask them this question they sort of say no, the best nurse is one who doesn’t want to [00:08:20] progress and, you know, someone who will turn up, do the work, learn how [00:08:25] to to handle that dentist and not want progression. Because there isn’t [00:08:30] much progression in most dental practices, is there? I mean, you’ve just outlined a nice sort of, you [00:08:35] know, radiology qualification or hygienist or I guess there’s dental health [00:08:40] educator type things as well, therapists and all of those. Right? Yeah. [00:08:45] But the question is, having seen lots of practices, have [00:08:50] you got an idea of best and worst practice? And what are some of the stories of bad [00:08:55] practice? I mean, this one you’ve told of good practice? Yeah.

Laura Horton: It’s interesting [00:09:00] because that first practice that I worked in, it was your bog standard general [00:09:05] dental practice, NHS, NHS Monday to Thursday, Friday [00:09:10] was and Saturdays were private. But it was the same thing, just a different price. [00:09:15] Yeah. It was, you know, the same materials. There was no. What are we talking.

Payman Langroudi: 90.

Laura Horton: Something [00:09:20] talking. Yeah. Late 90s. Yeah there was, there was nothing different in it. Doctor [00:09:25] Bradbury’s no longer with us. And, you know, I don’t think it would be being [00:09:30] disrespectful to say that he did end up [00:09:35] at the GDC because of the dentistry. It was fast paced. Rct in 15 [00:09:40] minutes. What on earth that about? Do you know what I mean? But when it’s your first practice that you’ve worked in, [00:09:45] you don’t know that anything’s wrong. And there were things like, we had to wear [00:09:50] the same pair of gloves all morning and just wash them with alcohol. So when I started this college course [00:09:55] and I’m like, hang on a minute. And me being me, I’ve always been very outspoken. Say what [00:10:00] I think, going back to him and saying, doctor B, we’re not meant to be doing this. We’re not meant [00:10:05] to be doing that. We’re not meant to be reusing this. He’d say, it’s my practice and that’s what [00:10:10] I’m doing. And it did cause me to leave. Mhm. And [00:10:15] I felt really bad because he’d paid for all this education, but I knew there were things in that practice [00:10:20] that were wrong.

Payman Langroudi: So interesting isn’t it. Because you wouldn’t imagine someone who’s saving on gloves [00:10:25] would pay for the nurse’s education. Yeah. But he was doing that. He was very forward thinking [00:10:30] in one way. Yeah. And yet he was pinching pennies on on the other end. Yeah. [00:10:35] So interesting.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Really interesting. Like his his mindset I don’t know, it may [00:10:40] just be the culture that he’d been ingrained into I don’t know. And what I can say [00:10:45] is two of the dentists, including doctor B, who no longer are no longer with us, both of them ended [00:10:50] up in, you know, at the GDC. I don’t know, was it the pressure on the NHS, [00:10:55] 70 patients a day, you know, it was mental. And I used to get told off for talking to [00:11:00] patients, you know.

Payman Langroudi: That was all free. So it’s the one thing we encourage [00:11:05] now. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Laura what are you talking to this patient for? [00:11:10] Oh, they’re just really nervous, you know, and you get instruments thrown at you and things. [00:11:15]

Payman Langroudi: Uh, back then, back then.

Laura Horton: It was fine. Yeah. You know, and.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:11:20] other examples you’ve seen, I mean, for instance, other examples, this focus on the price of stuff. Yeah. Obviously [00:11:25] in our world it’s a major issue isn’t it. People. People worry about how much each thing costs them. Yeah. [00:11:30] So on um. It’s weird. Because it’s one of the only sort of moving parts that a dentist’s can [00:11:35] can touch. It’s hard to reduce staff costs or building costs, but somehow [00:11:40] material costs you can. I had a buddy. He had the bright idea of stick 3 [00:11:45] or 4 of those pink mouthwash tablets into a jug. You know, fill the [00:11:50] jug up with pink pink water, then pour it out to save on mouthwash tablets.

Laura Horton: So [00:11:55] silly. It’s so silly because I’m sure we’ll get to this. But if you implement [00:12:00] the TCO role and use my methods, you just make money easily. There’s so many ways practices [00:12:05] are losing big bucks. Like stop concentrating on these little cuts here and there. It’s silly. [00:12:10] But back to your question. I think it’s really important to progress [00:12:15] your team. It’s all about culture. And I think as dentists, you’re [00:12:20] your hickory professionals, your course junkies. You’re always learning. Yeah. And [00:12:25] isn’t it great if your team are inspired by that and also want to do well? Don’t get [00:12:30] me wrong, if there are people that don’t want to do anything, fine, leave them to it. The world is made up of different people, [00:12:35] but I think it is really important to offer progression. So after I [00:12:40] left doctor B, I went and temped as a nurse and.

Payman Langroudi: Loved lots and lots.

Laura Horton: Of [00:12:45] loved it. Yeah. Did you loved it? I was the kind [00:12:50] of nurse I can nurse with anyone because it’s all about communication. So I was quite happy to come [00:12:55] into your clinic for a day. Right? Okay. Payman, this is the list. What do you need do do do do do and [00:13:00] sort of run the show, as it were. Which is what dentists want. Dentists want their nurses to run the show. They should [00:13:05] do. If they don’t, that’s another discussion. Yeah, but I love Tampin, so I [00:13:10] could be in community in Hackney. I just used to drive into London in my little car with my A [00:13:15] to Z on my steering wheel, you know, and I’d pre-planned all the pages I needed to turn over [00:13:20] the night before. And I just think that’s mad now. I couldn’t do that now, driving with an eight, is it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you [00:13:25] turn up to a practice? Sometimes within the first five seconds you get a vibe of [00:13:30] is it a happy place or isn’t it?

Laura Horton: Totally. And I’m really impacted by [00:13:35] that as a person. Wherever I go, I can be like, whoa, this isn’t good here.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes you can just [00:13:40] feel it straight away. You can feel it. And the opposite, of course.

Laura Horton: Absolutely. You can just get excited by it. [00:13:45] So yeah, I think if people don’t want to progress their team, [00:13:50] I think that’s I think that’s an issue and I’m recruiting at the moment. So I’ve got [00:13:55] a practice that’s opening in a few weeks. My first practice. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, amazing.

Laura Horton: It’s [00:14:00] opening in a few weeks. It should have been open sooner, but that’s down to the CQC. Amazing [00:14:05] that they’re so. I am just currently, right now [00:14:10] inundated with applications for trainee dental nurses. [00:14:15] And I’m like, whoa, I’ve had to think fast on my feet about this, because the amount of applications [00:14:20] that have come through has surprised me. We already have one outstanding [00:14:25] dental nurse experienced. Fantastic. We were going to [00:14:30] employ a second, but because we’ve had this delay, we were like, should we go back to our original plan now [00:14:35] of looking for a trainee because we’re going to have the time. And so I’ve had to think on my feet, and [00:14:40] I will confess, I’ve stolen this from a client that I worked with for many years. Her name’s Naomi, [00:14:45] and she’s a lovely lady, but she once did an event for our trainee dental [00:14:50] nurses. Get them all in one room, tell them what it’s about, what their progression is, how it’s going to work, [00:14:55] and then move forward with interviews from there. Really sort of screen people. Yeah. [00:15:00] So I’m screening them already or indeed with a few questions. And [00:15:05] I’ve put this very quickly, put this event together 530 Tuesday night, fill in this application [00:15:10] form and confirm you can come. So what I’m putting together for this presentation is actually [00:15:15] about progression. We don’t just want to support you to qualify. [00:15:20] We want you to qualify and be an amazing dental nurse. From that moment you qualify because [00:15:25] that’s a problem as well. It’s a bit like driving. I feel some people are taught just to pass. [00:15:30] They’re not taught all the skills they need. So we want you to be an amazing [00:15:35] dental nurse, working with all the clinicians within our practice. And then from that moment [00:15:40] you qualify, get your GDC number. You’re then contracted as a dental nurse and this will be [00:15:45] your progression path. There’s already one who’s put I want to be a hygienist. Fantastic. [00:15:50] Come on then.

Payman Langroudi: Work towards.

Laura Horton: That. Brilliant. Because we’ll have you back as a hygienist. [00:15:55] Yeah yeah yeah. And and that’s the type of person I am. I want [00:16:00] to work with people that want me to do well. I think that’s really important. [00:16:05] I remember one practice I worked at and they brought in appraisals, [00:16:10] so it’s the first time we’d ever had appraisals. And I’m going back in time. And [00:16:15] one of the questions were, oh, you know, what are your goals for the next five years? And I said, [00:16:20] whatever. I said, you know, I’d love to go travelling. I didn’t mention anything about hygiene or therapy, [00:16:25] but I know I definitely said I want to go travelling. And then from the appraisals they gave everyone a [00:16:30] pay rise and. Me with my skills got the lowest pay rise because of course [00:16:35] there’s a team. Let’s not forget, we all discuss this. I was livid and I said to the manager, why [00:16:40] have I got the lowest pay rise? She said, because you’ve said you want to go travelling [00:16:45] well. And I was like. Ridiculous, you [00:16:50] know. I then left yeah. I was like, right have that is my [00:16:55] notice. Goodbye. I’m not working in this place any longer. On that you went. Yeah. It was like the icing [00:17:00] or the cherry on the cake, I say. Anyway, working there, I was like, just go away. I [00:17:05] just can’t be in this place. It’s toxic. Yeah. Um, at that time, I was also doing my oral health education [00:17:10] qualification. I was funding it myself. There have been really difficult about it. So [00:17:15] there were lots of things. And that was the final. I was like, oh, why.

Payman Langroudi: Tell me more about this practice? [00:17:20]

Laura Horton: So I am opening a practice in Colchester with [00:17:25] Free Dentists and partnered with them. Yeah, all equal partners and [00:17:30] myself and Katie are going to be working in the clinic. Andy and Daniel, [00:17:35] well Andy will for some implant cases. Daniel’s not at the moment, but [00:17:40] he might see the bright lights and be swayed over. We’ll find out. And [00:17:45] yeah, they’re really lovely. I’m the eldest, which I find quite hilarious. Um, [00:17:50] but yeah, they’re really great. And I had an opportunity to work with them for a year, actually, not with [00:17:55] treatment coordination. I was supporting them with their management and restructuring. They’ve got two [00:18:00] clinics, and I worked with them for a year right up to the pandemic. [00:18:05] So probably a couple of weeks before it’s probably the end of the February [00:18:10] before. I was sat with them and we were all like, is it going to happen or not? And I [00:18:15] remember Andy had just exchanged on his house and I was about to exchange on a house, and [00:18:20] me and Andrew were both like, shit, we’re both about to double our mortgages like [00:18:25] it’s the world’s going to end and all this stuff. Yeah. So I worked with them right up to them, [00:18:30] but I had a fabulous insight into how they ran their business. [00:18:35] Yeah. And it was fantastic. There weren’t any recommendations [00:18:40] I could make to them about their partnership, their set up and the way that they ran their [00:18:45] business. They’re already doing it all. And Andy and Katie are brother [00:18:50] and sister and they’ve all known each other many, many years. So they’ve got a really successful partnership [00:18:55] already, which I thought was how did.

Payman Langroudi: The conversation come about to open a new business together?

Laura Horton: So [00:19:00] I’ve always kept in touch and actually we’ve all moved there as a family to [00:19:05] the practice as well because it was local, so it was a right result as well, working with the local practice instead of travelling. [00:19:10] So what’s happened is since I had my little boy, I needed a new dentist [00:19:15] and I was saying to ash, like, it’s a two hour round trip. Like, I can’t [00:19:20] keep coming to see Luke for a check-up for a two hour round trip. I can’t bring a child like that distance either. [00:19:25] So I politely moved practice and all my family’s gone there, and [00:19:30] we’ve always kept in touch because I really liked them and got on really well with them. And I’d say that about [00:19:35] a lot of my clients. You do end up having a relationship on a different level. It’s not just [00:19:40] purely business friendship. Yeah, it’s a friendship. You know, one client who I’ve worked with for years has messaged [00:19:45] me today. My little boy was in hospital yesterday and he’s seen that and said, oh gosh. And you [00:19:50] know, he’s his daughter’s unfortunately in hospital and he’s oh my gosh, what’s happening? And he’s [00:19:55] sharing all that with me. So I feel really lucky to always work with such fantastic people. [00:20:00] So we’ve always got kept in touch. I’d say Andy and myself have always got on very [00:20:05] well because we’re very similar in personality, quite direct people.

Laura Horton: And he called [00:20:10] me up and said, we’ve got this situation, and the situation is that they’ve bought [00:20:15] a building for a third clinic in Colchester. The idea being Katie’s going [00:20:20] to be the main person working there. She lives in Mersey, so it’s like 20 minutes. She’s [00:20:25] got three young children. It’s going to be better for her work life balance, but it’s not [00:20:30] happened. It’s not come to life. And the reason for that is her son has got cystic fibrosis, [00:20:35] so he’d been quite poorly. So this is 2022. So he’d been quite poorly [00:20:40] in hospital a lot. So it hadn’t sort of got off the ground. So he said to me we are [00:20:45] looking at getting a fourth partner. And I wondered if you knew any dentists. And [00:20:50] I said, oh, I don’t know. I said, it might be quite uncomfortable because people I do know [00:20:55] are more associates, so I wouldn’t want to upset any apple carts. But let me have a think [00:21:00] about it. I then went on holiday, so it was. Yeah. October 22nd [00:21:05] went on holiday with my husband just to Centre Parcs and I said, this phone call with Andy, [00:21:10] this is what they’re thinking of doing. And I’m thinking, why can’t I be the partner? And [00:21:15] my husband said, well, why can’t you? And I said, well, of course I can. And I’m still GDC registered. So that’s [00:21:20] not an issue, you know? Of course I can.

Laura Horton: But it took me probably about another month [00:21:25] to speak to Andy and sort of, sort of pluck up the courage. Really? Yeah. [00:21:30] So I spoke to him and, um, have you found anyone yet? And he’s like, [00:21:35] oh, no, and all this. And I’m saying to myself, just say it, Laura. Just say it, just say it. [00:21:40] You’ve got nothing to lose. Just say it. And I went, okay, so I’m just wondering, could I be the partner? And he said, [00:21:45] I was hoping you were going to say that. Oh, nice. And I went oh, fantastic. And [00:21:50] then so that was probably yeah mid-November, end of November [00:21:55] time. So then yeah, mid-December went round and we had [00:22:00] a curry, had a good chat about how we could all see it working because I have [00:22:05] my methods and my ways. They don’t [00:22:10] have a TCO, for example. They’ve not implemented that role in the way that I [00:22:15] would implement it. So they may have in one practice, they’ve got no option for it and another they have and they’ve got someone [00:22:20] who has has a title, but it’s not they’ve not been trained by me. It’s not the way that I do [00:22:25] treatment coordination. Yeah. So another example would be that within the plans [00:22:30] that they’d had made, there’s no consult room. So it was a conversation of well I’m having [00:22:35] a surgery, the TCA room.

Payman Langroudi: So you kind of wanted overall sort of creative [00:22:40] control over that part of it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I’m very much wanting to lead the patient experience and the [00:22:45] team training and what we’re delivering and what we’re offering to patients so that it is a really what. [00:22:50]

Payman Langroudi: Is it like? Is it like a very high end beautiful whatever, or is it a what’s it like?

Laura Horton: I’m definitely [00:22:55] describing it already in information for patients. It’s a state of the art clinic. [00:23:00] Just because we’ll have all the mod cons, all the toys. But [00:23:05] I think really my message to patients is that it’s a comprehensive clinic and just trying to effectively communicate [00:23:10] what comprehensive dentistry is. I want patients to come in for general [00:23:15] dentistry and receive really good general dentistry to treatment, plan them really well [00:23:20] so that they’re not being patched over. They’re having long time care. That care has got guarantees [00:23:25] on it. They’re involved with the whole clinical team, not just one dentist, and [00:23:30] really ensuring that we’re improving our patients oral health and [00:23:35] working with that patient to do so. So we will require a certain type of patient [00:23:40] who wants that, you know, patients that just want to be patched over come in for an [00:23:45] emergency as and when it suits them, they’re probably not going to be for us. Yeah, [00:23:50] but we’re starting off. So with Katie obviously is the dentist. We have a hygiene therapist. [00:23:55] I’m going to be the TCA Payman because I thought it just makes sense. Although [00:24:00] I’ve got to train someone, you know, all the time I spend training someone trying to get this business off the ground, [00:24:05] I might as well just go and be the TCA myself. You recruited a lovely front of house person. [00:24:10] She’s got no clinical background, which is what I wanted.

Payman Langroudi: Is that what you’d recommend? [00:24:15]

Laura Horton: It’s what I wanted.

Payman Langroudi: But in general, is that what you’d recommend? Um.

Laura Horton: Not [00:24:20] necessarily. I think it depends where you’re starting. I think the problem is, if you’re [00:24:25] trying to develop your clinic. It can be difficult to [00:24:30] have people on the desk that know too much. I think one of the greatest things that I was [00:24:35] ever told, which was by Bill Blatchford, who? Ash and Raoul. It was amazing. Working [00:24:40] with Bill Blatchford.

Payman Langroudi: Was solutions.

Laura Horton: Right? Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing, such an opportunity. [00:24:45] That was and I remember Bill saying to me, do you know what, Laura? You [00:24:50] need to think that you know nothing. That’s what you that needs to be your approach. [00:24:55] You know nothing, he said. And then you’ll find things easier. And that’s always stuck with [00:25:00] me. Why does it.

Payman Langroudi: Help to know nothing?

Laura Horton: So, for example, if you’re on the front desk, if you’re a TCO [00:25:05] and you know so much clinically, you end up having a clinical conversation [00:25:10] in a non clinical environment.

Payman Langroudi: Giving solutions that not necessarily the right solutions. [00:25:15] Yeah.

Laura Horton: And patients pre prescribe enough don’t they. Oh I’ve got a toothache I need [00:25:20] a crown or I need a filling. You don’t even know. You know what you need. So you’re prescribing. We don’t [00:25:25] need anyone else doing that at all.

Payman Langroudi: But for a TCO role [00:25:30] you’d rather that was a clinical person, right?

Laura Horton: Ultimately, the best treatment coordinators [00:25:35] are have a clinical background. Yeah. And that’s because you can then fully utilise them [00:25:40] in the role. I think it also depends on the dentistry that’s being offered as well. Because [00:25:45] if you’re using a TCO for a general dentistry workflow, it’s not the [00:25:50] end of the world to have someone non-clinical. If you’re using a TCO for implant dentistry, [00:25:55] rehab, dentistry, in my opinion, without a doubt, having someone who’s clinical [00:26:00] is just going to pay off because if a patient’s asking me a question, I can’t be [00:26:05] blagging it. I don’t want to make something up. And also I need to [00:26:10] be able to give them some kind of answer, or I need to tell them from [00:26:15] my understanding, what you’re saying is correct. But we will double check all of this.

Payman Langroudi: Because [00:26:20] I’ve come across people who want non-clinical people to be the TCO. Yeah, [00:26:25] that sort of. They want executers like sellers. Yeah. And they [00:26:30] don’t think sellers come from dentistry.

Laura Horton: Well, I don’t think the TCO role is a sales role. And [00:26:35] I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, not primarily.

Laura Horton: Right. And anyone who says that my [00:26:40] my comment back is not being disrespectful. But you’ve never worked with a TCO [00:26:45] and you’ve never worked in practice to know that that role is not a sales role. It’s an education and consent [00:26:50] role. And there’s nothing worse than having someone. In a sales role, pushing [00:26:55] patients into treatment because they’re going to get a commission. I just think it’s a recipe for [00:27:00] disaster. Come on.

Payman Langroudi: Right on to in a moment. But back to the practice. To the.

Laura Horton: Practice. [00:27:05]

Payman Langroudi: Do you have plans, like have you got plans to open [00:27:10] more of these or have you started with the end in mind or.

Laura Horton: We have started with [00:27:15] the end in mind. So that was one of the things that we agreed upon really early on, which [00:27:20] is our exit strategy. So that was really good. We’ve also got in place [00:27:25] legal partnership agreements. Again, they already had one. So that was like a box ticked for [00:27:30] me. But again, I’ve been in so many businesses where there isn’t [00:27:35] a legal partnership agreement.

Payman Langroudi: Common isn’t.

Laura Horton: It? It is really common. And I understand when you’re [00:27:40] starting up, it’s all rosy and it’s exciting and you love each other, but then [00:27:45] it’s like a divorce, isn’t it? Down. It’s a prenup basically down the road. Things could go wrong, [00:27:50] you know, everything’s covered in this agreement, you know, from death to incapacity [00:27:55] to work. You know, it’s quite dull reading, but it’s really important. So can [00:28:00] you share.

Payman Langroudi: The plans with me a bit or. No.

Laura Horton: On the partnership agreement?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Like, are you thinking [00:28:05] this practice and flip or are you thinking more of these? What are you thinking? So it’s a bit early, [00:28:10] isn’t it.

Laura Horton: But it is a bit early. And right now I’m perhaps quite mindful [00:28:15] of the existing teams within their two practices [00:28:20] to sort of talk about it. Okay. I don’t know if that would necessarily [00:28:25] go down too well, but what I can say [00:28:30] is and I sort of joked about it with Andy the other day, well, this is good for the next one. [00:28:35] Yeah. Do you remember when you said to me, Laura, why don’t [00:28:40] you just go to the bank, borrow loads of money and open loads of practices? Do you remember that? That’s when all that was starting. [00:28:45]

Payman Langroudi: Really? Really. I’ve always thought someone like you. Someone like Prav. [00:28:50] You know, I’ve always thought people who go into practices and train [00:28:55] teams on how to maximise and so forth. Of course, you can go work for a corporate [00:29:00] and do that on lots of practices, but I’ve always thought that’s a great, great person [00:29:05] to go and raise money and open a bunch. I mean, I’d say, of course it makes sense for you to go [00:29:10] in now. Yeah, but I wouldn’t have expected you to say you want to be the person who actually do the TCO ING [00:29:15] in this practice. Yeah. Although I do remember from your other interview that you were saying that’s your job that you love [00:29:20] the most, all the jobs that you did. Yeah. Um, even more than management roles.

Laura Horton: Oh, definitely. [00:29:25] Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you like the patient interaction?

Laura Horton: I’m a people person, so [00:29:30] I, you know, I love I love being with people. So that’s why I’m a great TCO. [00:29:35] Yeah. Just sort of picking up on what you’re saying there. You know people that do training and such like I’m [00:29:40] all up for other people going out in the world setting themselves up, but [00:29:45] I think it does take a certain type of person to move [00:29:50] solely into training and consultancy. You know, I’ve been doing it for 15 years and [00:29:55] not had another job on the side. I left perfect Smile Studios [00:30:00] amazing salary, seven weeks, paid holiday a year, amazing [00:30:05] bonuses. The bonuses were sometimes double my salary [00:30:10] every month. Yeah, and I left that. And ash said to me, why don’t [00:30:15] you stay part time? We can make something work. And I said, no, I need to [00:30:20] just go out and do this to make it work. And that was, well, it’ll be 16 years in the summer. [00:30:25] That was.

Payman Langroudi: So how quickly did you make it work?

Laura Horton: Quite [00:30:30] quickly actually, I. And [00:30:35] I just sort of add to this as well. I had no money. I was in quite a lot of debt. [00:30:40] Mm.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about the first couple of clients and you know, how did it come about. Was [00:30:45] it people you used to come on their courses?

Laura Horton: No, not at all. Let’s just get [00:30:50] that out there. Um, because you couldn’t. Because you’ve got a contract, haven’t you? You’ve got a contract. Contract. [00:30:55] So what happens? First of all, interestingly, I also [00:31:00] do a lot of networking for Ash and Rahul, um, for the academy also as well. [00:31:05] I don’t know if you were there, but the first ever what’s now the dentistry [00:31:10] show, it was called The Aesthetic Dentist. Do you remember that? Yeah. So we had a stand [00:31:15] there, me and Cheryl Ash and income and there, [00:31:20] there was this couple that I met, and they have a consultancy in health [00:31:25] care and they introduce themselves. And I just kept their details, followed them on online [00:31:30] and everything. And I think it was, um, the guys [00:31:35] saw a post I’d put on, I don’t know what it was. Facebook was in its infancy as well, and he [00:31:40] reached out to me and said, we’ve got some work you can do for us. We’ll pay you a retainer fee, £500 [00:31:45] a month, do you want to do it? And I was like, um, okay, do you know what? [00:31:50] I will didn’t enjoy it whatsoever. What had happened was [00:31:55] that ash had opened some doors for me and with Ellis Paul at [00:32:00] private dentistry, and put me on to a phone call with him. And Ellis was lovely [00:32:05] and said, oh, I’d love some articles from you, Laura. I distinctively remember the phone call. Great guy, [00:32:10] amazing guy. And he said, you’re like an English rose and I’d love to [00:32:15] feature you. And I said, oh, thank you so much. And he really helped me. Like, English has [00:32:20] never been my strong point. But yeah, he was a really great and really helped me and put like a series [00:32:25] of articles in which kicked off. Yeah, I’m in PD this month [00:32:30] for February, this month for an article about the practice actually. But definitely [00:32:35] 15, 16 years ago, being in a journal was like a big thing.

Payman Langroudi: It was [00:32:40] gigantic.

Laura Horton: It was huge back then. So that definitely paved the way. The [00:32:45] other avenue that sort of kicked things off for me, which was really interesting. Well, [00:32:50] there were two. One of them was the amount of people from companies such as yourselves [00:32:55] who had been to the academy, who’d been into the practice. I’d taken [00:33:00] care of them, who were reaching out to me and saying, I understand you’ve left there. You’re [00:33:05] going out on your own. How can I help you? Mhm. Richard Collard was one of the first [00:33:10] to do that. And I was just getting more and more taken aback. The more it was happening. You looked after [00:33:15] me. Let me look after you. Yeah. What is it you’re doing? Let me spread the word. I’ll recommend [00:33:20] you to anyone. No one’s asking for kickbacks or anything like that. I was like, oh, wow. This. [00:33:25] It just goes to show how important relationships are. So I had a lot of support [00:33:30] in that direction. And then the other link that’s quite interesting was actually [00:33:35] through Prav. But he probably doesn’t know this, which [00:33:40] is that he came to our he came to the practice for a meeting about a website with afresh. [00:33:45] And what happened was Ash and Rahul took a bit too long [00:33:50] to decide and go back to him.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And when they went back to Prav, he said, sorry, [00:33:55] there’s already someone in the area who, like, we’ve taken someone else on basically [00:34:00] in your area, so it’s not fair. I don’t do that. And they were like, ah man. [00:34:05] And he said, I will put you on to my friend in Liverpool. Her name is Shelley. [00:34:10] She’s got this website company. So Ash and Rahul engaged with her. I had no idea who she [00:34:15] was. Suddenly I’m dealing with this, this company. Fine. Whatever. Really nice people. What [00:34:20] happened was just from speaking on the phone and the projects and getting things off the ground, I ended [00:34:25] up working quite closely with them. And Shelley, when I said, oh, I’m just let you know I’m leaving next week. [00:34:30] She said, have you got a website? I said, no, nothing. [00:34:35] And she said, give us your mobile number, I’m going to help you out. [00:34:40] So again, from our relationship, just purely professional. [00:34:45] And she became quite a good friend actually. She did have clients that were dentists. And she was [00:34:50] also saying, I’ve got a new client myself. I’m doing her website. This is it, this is Laura. Get [00:34:55] her into your practice, guys. You won’t regret it. So that that was really lovely as well.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I’m going [00:35:00] to call it professional karma sort of thing. Yeah, definitely. It does go to show that, um, [00:35:05] and, you know, it pays to be nice. Yeah. But as [00:35:10] I say, my biggest memory of going to that meeting with, um, Ash and Rahul. [00:35:15] Yeah. Was you. Yeah, yeah. And I guess you were, you know, taking care of me. But there [00:35:20] was this feeling that it was just. It was like being in Novikov or something. And Novikov [00:35:25] didn’t exist back then, but, you know, it was it was just like, come in, cup of coffee. Sit [00:35:30] down. Have you got this? Is there anything else I can do for you? Yeah. Everyone being like you could see the staff [00:35:35] were happy but working. Yeah. And it just was a special, special vibe [00:35:40] in, in that practice, you know, and I’m interested in this sort of professional karma [00:35:45] thing you’re talking about because. Do you believe in karma? Karma?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Totally.

Payman Langroudi: Karma.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: So what? Supernatural karma.

Laura Horton: I believe that what you put out there comes back to you.

Payman Langroudi: Well, [00:35:55] we’ve discussed how practically it does. Right. But you believe, like, I don’t know, you [00:36:00] find £10 on the floor and you don’t hand it in and you buy something with it, and that thing messes [00:36:05] your life. Yeah. Like that’s.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do quite superstitious like that to you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:36:10]

Laura Horton: I’d be like, oh I found a £10 note. Oh my gosh I’m so uncomfortable about this. Who can I give it to? I [00:36:15] wouldn’t take it I couldn’t I’d find a homeless person.

Payman Langroudi: Funny tangent. Do you believe in God?

Laura Horton: No. [00:36:20]

Payman Langroudi: Well, you see, that’s why I’m either. No.

Laura Horton: I don’t I [00:36:25] was I was raised a Christian.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really? Did you reject it?

Laura Horton: Some of my youngest [00:36:30] memories are sitting in a freezing cold church with my mum and then my mum. My mum [00:36:35] went off it, so naturally we did. Yay! But yeah, there’s some of my earliest memories. [00:36:40] Uh, and I’m. I’m Christian, I’m Church of England.

Payman Langroudi: You book.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:45]

Payman Langroudi: Let’s move the story on from from from let’s let’s now get to the whole TKO game. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. [00:36:50] So I want to I want to hear these few things. Right. What are the typical situations [00:36:55] you come across? Practice doesn’t have a TCO. Once one [00:37:00] has an idea what it is. Yeah, I expect sometimes internally [00:37:05] you have to deal with politics. Mhm. And we see that a lot in dental practices. We see [00:37:10] sometimes two different power bases. Yeah. And I expect you’ve got a really good feel for that. You can feel [00:37:15] what’s going on. Yeah. How do you deal with that. How do you tell them. Who should [00:37:20] it be. Someone internal or someone external. Or is there resistance to changing [00:37:25] the systems? Do people even understand that people need constant training [00:37:30] rather than one off training? Yeah, because I hear that a lot. People say, come, come to my practice, teach my team [00:37:35] how to sell whitening. We do it. We get a little one blip for that month and then it goes back. Everyone goes [00:37:40] back to their old ways again. And, you know, people need constant training. Yeah. So some of the stories [00:37:45] about practices looking to take on tcos and the kind of solutions you have to put in place. [00:37:50]

Laura Horton: Yeah. So for me it’s all about making sure firstly that [00:37:55] the manager and clinic owner understand the role and what they want to do with it. So [00:38:00] interestingly, just this week I’m actually running something totally new for the first [00:38:05] time ever and I’ve called it a treatment coordination implementation sprint. And [00:38:10] it’s for managers and clinic owners to get the the ball rolling and get the roll going. [00:38:15] Because treatment coordination is a project. And in practice we start too many projects [00:38:20] and never finish any of them. Something I really dislike. I like to finish stuff and [00:38:25] I think we should work on one project, implement it, tweak it, and then happy days, then [00:38:30] move on to the next thing. In practice it isn’t like that. We’ve got too many plates spinning. [00:38:35] It’s very difficult for managers. Clinic owners come in, they have what I call [00:38:40] shower moments. Stop what you’re doing. Yeah, I’ve changed my mind. I’ve had this idea, but we’re doing [00:38:45] this yesterday. It’s me. I know it’s me as well, but as a manager, it’s very difficult. [00:38:50] And as team members, it can be very difficult. A lot of the team need to understand the why [00:38:55] behind everything. So that’s really important. And I would definitely say [00:39:00] that from the amount of calls that we do and Cheryl takes all the initial calls, she’s an amazing tseo. She [00:39:05] worked with ash right up until her maternity leave. I trained as a TCA. I’ve [00:39:10] actually known her over 20 years.

Laura Horton: Clinic owners that we talk to are all game. They’re all [00:39:15] excited. Yeah, but actually the communication back to the management and the team can sometimes [00:39:20] be lacking. That’s where we definitely step in and definitely help. [00:39:25] One of the other problems with treatment coordination. In my opinion it [00:39:30] should be internal. It should be internal recruitment. And that’s one of the things I’ve gone through it just this morning actually on [00:39:35] the sprint. This is the job description. This is your this is how you interview internally. This [00:39:40] is how you, you know, the copy for the internal advert. If we cherry pick, I can [00:39:45] tell you now your chances of the role being embedded long terme [00:39:50] are going to be decreased. And adding to that [00:39:55] then that TCO is not had any training and they’re just trying to do it off their own back which hats [00:40:00] off to them. It’s doomed. Mhm. There’s nothing worse than the team [00:40:05] saying oh Payman. He just sits around all day having cups of tea. Patience. [00:40:10] He’s not even doing anything when treatment coordination is hard work. Yeah. So [00:40:15] practices again get the role mixed up. You know [00:40:20] what is all this that’s out there. That oh Tko’s taking new [00:40:25] patient phone calls. That’s a receptionist job. That’s a TCI. I haven’t got time to take new patient phone calls. [00:40:30] I haven’t got time. If a lead comes through, it’s just going to sit there.

Payman Langroudi: To [00:40:35] chase it.

Laura Horton: Yeah, well, I’m not going to be able to call that patient. I’m seeing patients. So what am I [00:40:40] going to do? Call them at 6 p.m.? Sorry, you’ve already lost. You’ve lost that patient. You need [00:40:45] to respond to them quickly so the role gets misconstrued. It gets [00:40:50] mixed up. People take oh, that will be a TCO. That will be a TCO. How do TCO recently [00:40:55] say, well, I don’t think I’m a TCO. I think I’m a glorified receptionist. [00:41:00] I said, that’s for you to have a discussion with your clinic owner about. Sorry.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. What’s best practice [00:41:05] that the TCO sees patients for appointments. Yes. That what free appointments. [00:41:10]

Laura Horton: Free consultations for high value patients and nervous patients. If you’re a practice that’s [00:41:15] supporting nervous patients, like proactively supporting nervous patients within your marketing, you [00:41:20] want them. You’re going to sedate them. That’s one of your usp’s.

Payman Langroudi: But but [00:41:25] but no role in actually following that patient up and getting that patient in. You’re saying that’s receptionist [00:41:30] job, but when when the practice isn’t doing that very well, you’re saying well.

Laura Horton: Fix the reception [00:41:35] team separately. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And you, you deliver that too. Yes. Oh really? Okay.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So [00:41:40] we train teams to handle and convert new patient inquiries. Okay. And while everyone’s got [00:41:45] their strengths and weaknesses again it’s not fair on the reception team to be told you know or [00:41:50] I don’t like when people go on my reception team is shit. You know they’re crap at. Converting or what training have you given [00:41:55] them? And like you just said, what is it, just a half day training or a one day training? Who was the training [00:42:00] by? Was it someone who actually knows what they’re doing? Who’s actually done this for real life? Like it’s [00:42:05] not fair on them. And do you even have enough staff? Most practices don’t even have enough [00:42:10] staff.

Payman Langroudi: That’s a bugbear of mine. Yeah, it really is like, you know, why is it that Dental [00:42:15] practices are so undermanned? Yeah. I mean, you go to. I was telling someone [00:42:20] about the Ivy. Yeah. It’s not exactly high end restaurant.

Laura Horton: It’s lovely though.

Payman Langroudi: It’s all right, [00:42:25] but it’s not. It’s not the high end restaurant. Right. You get your, I don’t know, shepherd’s pie for £18 or something. [00:42:30] Right. Lovely.

Laura Horton: Lovely though, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: That’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s a I’d call it a [00:42:35] chain restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Okay. It’s fancy decor, whatever. But the number of humans. [00:42:40] Yeah. The staff to customer ratio is through [00:42:45] the roof. Compared to a dental practice in dental practices, there’s not enough humans. [00:42:50] Now we go back to the cost cutting part that, you know, [00:42:55] we. If you agree with me. Yeah. Um, it must be that [00:43:00] if we have more people working in practices, we’re going to do better, because, [00:43:05] you know, for me, the very obvious one is the nurse of the hygienist. So obvious [00:43:10] the hygienist should have a nurse so the hygienist can discuss whitening, discuss, you know, [00:43:15] high value items instead of cleaning up. Yeah. Something, you know, the hygienist should be [00:43:20] the one selling stuff. Yeah. Go. Go ahead. I don’t want to interrupt.

Laura Horton: And I think, [00:43:25] you know, Prav a degree as well. All these practices spending an absolute fortune [00:43:30] on marketing, and you haven’t even got enough staff to answer the phone. What a waste of money. [00:43:35] Practice is poor money down the drain. Now, I say, with my TCO methods, [00:43:40] I can make each dentist that treats high value patients 100 K within a [00:43:45] year easy. And I can because that’s how much money practices are pouring down the [00:43:50] drain.

Payman Langroudi: So okay, you go in, you ask some questions. Are you just naturally good at not [00:43:55] antagonising the people?

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’m on the side of the can.

Payman Langroudi: Be because it can be can it? It can [00:44:00] be, you know, when, when a when a when a call comes in who follows that up. Everyone looks at each other. [00:44:05] No one. How do you manage the sort of the politics of it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So in regards to myself [00:44:10] and my team, we are motivational people. We’re never there to put anyone down. So if [00:44:15] you know it has happened in the past, can you come in and read my team the Riot act? No, I’m not the one for you. Go [00:44:20] away. I’m. That’s not me. I need to sleep at night. I’m about saying. Right. Okay, [00:44:25] so these are the problems we’ve identified and I’ve come in to help you. [00:44:30] But we want to keep things simple. We want to systemise processes, and we want to make your life easier. [00:44:35] And if we need to do that in stages, that’s fine. But we need to achieve all of these things. [00:44:40] And I’m honestly here to help you. Let’s work through it together now, because myself [00:44:45] and my team, we are all from practice. The barriers are down. You know, we’re not [00:44:50] someone walking in with.

Payman Langroudi: A introduce yourself as someone who used to be a nurse and.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah yeah [00:44:55] yeah, yeah. So if that introduction hasn’t been made. Yeah, we’ll [00:45:00] make it now like we’re from practice. Everything we’re going through today I’ve personally experienced myself. [00:45:05] We are really good at handling objections from the team. And if we get objections. [00:45:10]

Payman Langroudi: What are the typical.

Laura Horton: Ones? I don’t think this is going to work. You don’t, you don’t. This. Our patients [00:45:15] aren’t going to like this.

Payman Langroudi: Would you say?

Laura Horton: I say, okay, tell me more. Yeah, tell me [00:45:20] more.

Payman Langroudi: See, I just go in and say you’re wrong. Yeah. No. I’m like.

Laura Horton: Tell me more, right? Because I think [00:45:25] and I say this about treatment coordination as well. If a team member has, [00:45:30] you know, stuck their neck up and said, excuse me, I’m a bit uncomfortable with this.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: That [00:45:35] is a compliment to me or Liana because they’re comfortable [00:45:40] spoken up to. They’re comfortable to say it. Yeah. They’re not being difficult. They’re [00:45:45] comfortable. We encourage questions okay. Tell me.

Payman Langroudi: More. She says. We don’t have time [00:45:50] here. Patients won’t like that. What do you say?

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’ll say I do. You know what? I [00:45:55] understand how you feel. We’ve got a story for everything. Mainly Anna.

Payman Langroudi: Feel felt. Found that one. Love.

Laura Horton: Feel. Felt. Found. [00:46:00] Brian. Tracy. Yeah. So we have an answer [00:46:05] for everything. For every objection. Because we’ve done this so many times. And I [00:46:10] know things are also uncomfortable for some people. And what we’re also quite good at is saying what we’re [00:46:15] going to do is trial this. Let’s find out. You know, and another [00:46:20] thing that practices do a lot that we’re able to bring to the table is just because one [00:46:25] patient doesn’t like something, you shouldn’t stop doing it. Absolutely. There are loads of practices [00:46:30] that make this mistake so often. I also like to say, all right, team, are there [00:46:35] things you can think of that have actually been really good and you’ve stopped doing [00:46:40] them for some reason, but we don’t know why. But actually be good to bring them back. So [00:46:45] we’re very engaging in what we do and say, oh yeah, well, you know what? We used to offer everyone? Tea and coffee. But, [00:46:50] you know, one patient said they’d. Why would they want coffee? The dentist, so we [00:46:55] stopped at just one. Just one patient. How [00:47:00] many patients liked it? You know, so I think it’s a big mistake. A lot of businesses make [00:47:05] they don’t listen to the masses. They listen to the one and make decisions based on that [00:47:10] one, whereas ours always make decisions based on the masses. So so.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:47:15] get them on.

Laura Horton: Side, get them on side, which is the biggest thing.

Payman Langroudi: You do. The sort of internal advert for who’s [00:47:20] going to be the person who’s going to get promoted, I guess, to the job. Yeah.

Laura Horton: I [00:47:25] think the other thing we are very clear about is, you know, not cherry picking, [00:47:30] but giving everyone opportunity to also apply for the role of the TCO because [00:47:35] there are some people and I’ve been into practices and I’ve gone, oh, she’d be great as a TCO. Her [00:47:40] really? Why? Oh, this, that and that. I had not noticed that. So it [00:47:45] is important some people have got really good skill sets and we need to we need to bring out the best in some people. Some [00:47:50] people just haven’t been given opportunities. They’ve got low self esteem. They’re not sure about [00:47:55] going forward with them. We need to get those people on board as well. We need to bring out of them if it’s there. So [00:48:00] I think it is really important.

Payman Langroudi: In the selection process.

Laura Horton: We can do. Yeah. So what we tend to do is [00:48:05] speak to a clinic if they’ve already got a TCO, fantastic. Let’s just move forward with that. If you [00:48:10] need more TCO sessions or TCO growth, then we need to recruit another. So we’ve got we’ll [00:48:15] help you with that. As part of the onboarding to a six month program TCO growth [00:48:20] program. So it’s a six month program because it’s all about momentum [00:48:25] coaching and mentoring of the Tcos. It’s not a one day course. [00:48:30] Go back, implement it. Keep your motivation high. It’s about supporting [00:48:35] the TCO predominantly within the business to help bring everything to life. So [00:48:40] Liana, as part of our onboarding, will also help the managers put together their interview as well, [00:48:45] which is really lovely. We want to give that back to the managers. We want the managers to [00:48:50] be leading it because again, I think if our managers not understanding something and not leading it got [00:48:55] another problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ve got a clinician and his nurse who’s now the TCO because [00:49:00] he wants her to be the TCO or she wants it to be the TCO. They’re running off doing their own thing. The rest of the practice [00:49:05] is sat there going, oh yeah, what’s this about? Why why is she getting [00:49:10] to sit and drink tea? Let’s see where it comes from. Yeah. Of course. So to me, [00:49:15] to me, treatment coordination is it is a long time game. You need to get it right. We turn away [00:49:20] more clinics than we take on. Because they’re not ready. And it’s [00:49:25] like a patient going forward with a big treatment plan. They need to be ready. Their oral health needs to be right. [00:49:30] So therefore in a practice, your set up needs to be right. You haven’t got a consultation [00:49:35] room okay. That’s a problem. You know moving around surgeries isn’t [00:49:40] isn’t great. Yeah. It’s not going to work I do have a solution for that. But uh, [00:49:45] I’ve got a TCI program. So six months is three months and it’s for virtual [00:49:50] treatment coordination. So virtual free consultations. So it helps people get [00:49:55] get the ball rolling which is good I mean.

Payman Langroudi: But the you train them on photography [00:50:00] scanning.

Laura Horton: I used to do a lot of photography training. Not so much anymore. [00:50:05] Um, scanning. The companies themselves are pretty good at doing that.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:50:10] certainly that’s what they’re doing, right? They’re taking photos?

Laura Horton: Not necessarily. No. Oh, really? Yeah. Not necessarily. [00:50:15] The a lot of people have also started choosing Tkos [00:50:20] because they’re good at scanning. You won’t find in my job description scanning or photography [00:50:25] or anything clinical. I’m selecting Tkos based on their attitude, [00:50:30] their skill set. Absolutely. It’s all of those skills that come first. So we do [00:50:35] have a problem that we’ve got nurses who are being cherry picked for the role. [00:50:40] Oh, you can scan. You’re a TKO. Off you go and see a patient. And then they’re just sort of sat [00:50:45] there with them like, okay, what do I say now? Oh my gosh, this is really awkward. [00:50:50] And it’s so cold. It’s a cold. Much of it.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:50:55] the person’s, you know, are they are they meant for it and how much of it is trainable? [00:51:00]

Laura Horton: I do believe that skills can be taught. So listening, for [00:51:05] example, is a really important skill within treatment coordination.

Payman Langroudi: You can teach that.

Laura Horton: I feel you can teach that. I feel [00:51:10] I definitely learned that as a skill. I really worked hard on it. Yeah I would just [00:51:15] talk for England otherwise.

Payman Langroudi: So so so repeating back to people.

Laura Horton: Rephrasing yeah, [00:51:20] actively listening to patients, taking notes, interlinking. Yeah. [00:51:25] Coming back at different appointments and remembering different things. Yeah. Listening is definitely a really [00:51:30] important skill I believe can be learnt. I do feel it is about the personality profile [00:51:35] of the patient. So if you are an introvert you’re probably not going to be a great talker. That’s fine. There’s other things [00:51:40] you can do. Yeah. Also, we don’t want someone who’s bouncing off the walls, do we? Who’s uncontrollable. [00:51:45] Yeah. We need someone who can adapt to all personality [00:51:50] types. That is critical. You know, I’ve got to be able to adapt [00:51:55] for.

Payman Langroudi: That, isn’t it? Yeah. Prav scores very highly on that test, interestingly. [00:52:00] But what I found, look, we try and have like our team [00:52:05] to be super sort of service orientated and I’ve found some people [00:52:10] just are they’re trainable in that sense and some aren’t as [00:52:15] as much. It’s almost like a it’s the same word, but it means [00:52:20] something to be of service. You know, some some people enjoy being off service. [00:52:25] Yeah. To another person, another human. Yeah. And others see it as [00:52:30] like a chore or something. Yeah. And that if you could bottle that and understand [00:52:35] who that is. Yeah. That’s the right person to be a TCO right to take looking [00:52:40] out for, for the other person. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And it’s the same with the with the whole team. So I know, you know, [00:52:45] you had a fantastic experience when you came to the practice when I was the manager and TCO there. And probably at [00:52:50] that stage I’d imagine we’d gone down to one practice. So we, we did, um, well [00:52:55] they had three, then went down to two. So I was with them while we had the two. And I was managing actually [00:53:00] the Hornchurch practice. Hartford was nearer to me, but I was always in Hornchurch with ash, [00:53:05] and when they sold Hornchurch and we were just going to Hartford, [00:53:10] I was then ash gave me the option. He said, you can stay here with a new owner [00:53:15] or you or you come carry on in Hartford as the manager. And I was like, oh no, I’ll stay with you, ash. I don’t [00:53:20] want to be with anyone else. And, um, don’t divorce me. And, [00:53:25] um. You know, the the team there, the way we [00:53:30] interviewed everyone, for example, you know, I really I was quite, quite hardcore in an interview [00:53:35] getting making sure we’re getting the right people. I think that’s really important.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:53:40] do you mean by hardcore? Explain it.

Laura Horton: A lot of questions about scenario [00:53:45] questions, testing in interviews, you know, can [00:53:50] can you even type you know, give me examples if you haven’t got examples [00:53:55] that you can’t give me, I’m not going to employ you. Yeah. You’ve got to [00:54:00] test people in interviews instead of, oh great, you’ve got what we need. Crack [00:54:05] on, answer the phone. You had to give you another example. A new employee would not be allowed to pick up [00:54:10] the phone in our practice weren’t allowed. And the reason for that is our average new patient [00:54:15] spend was £14,000 for cosmetic dentistry, 25 K for implants. [00:54:20] So that’s a risk.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So we we wouldn’t let [00:54:25] people pick up the phone. So it was about explaining that to them as well. Like there’ll be things we won’t let you do [00:54:30] and there’s a reason for that. So then they’d have a hunger for that. Well I want to be able to pick up the phone. [00:54:35] I want to be able to. And it’s just about weeding the right people out, isn’t it? You know, [00:54:40] um, just recently recruiting a front of house person myself, it’s really interesting [00:54:45] how different people are on the phone versus coming in. And again, [00:54:50] you know, all this, oh, there’s no staff out there. Well, I’ve been inundated for [00:54:55] every role I’ve advertised.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well but but then you’ve got social media profile [00:55:00] and all that. No, no not like that.

Laura Horton: Indeed indeed.

Payman Langroudi: Oh okay. Perfect. Well, [00:55:05] another thing is any shortage of people, um, shortage of good people, I found not not [00:55:10] as good as I do.

Laura Horton: Think you’re right, though. It is. You’ve either you are either a people person or you’re [00:55:15] not. You know, if you are, you know, if you look at disk profiling, if you are that conscientious [00:55:20] person who likes detail, who, you know, you’re probably [00:55:25] preferred to be sort of on your own in an office kind of job. Yeah. You’re [00:55:30] not a front facing person. Yeah. Uh, and that’s just that’s fine. [00:55:35] If you want them for that role, then they’re not right for you, are they?

Payman Langroudi: Tell me about the things that [00:55:40] go wrong with echoes. Does the TCO sometimes sort of upsell something [00:55:45] that’s not not, not sort of the right thing to do or overpromise [00:55:50] or. Yeah, tell me some of the common mistakes.

Laura Horton: I’d say it all goes down to training. [00:55:55] So one of the things that’s really definitely a mistake [00:56:00] and some people don’t see it as a mistake, but I certainly do, is just because you have experienced [00:56:05] a treatment yourself, you’re recommending that to a patient in a free consultation. [00:56:10] When in a free consultation, you should only be discussing potential solutions to [00:56:15] patients. They want to know what they’re suitable for, they need to have a clinical assessment. But because [00:56:20] I don’t know, I’ve had an implant and you’re talking to me about wanting an implant, I’m [00:56:25] going hell for leather about how great an implant is. You might not even be clinically, clinically suitable. [00:56:30] You might not have enough bone, you might not have enough space. And I’m really banging the drum about [00:56:35] it. You’re going to end up disappointed. So while it’s great for patients to know that you’ve had [00:56:40] treatment at the clinic. That’s where it should stay. So that’s definitely one thing. [00:56:45] Recommend and recommending. Also not acting with the best interests of your dentist. [00:56:50] Again in the free consultation. So a patient comes in wanting whatever [00:56:55] and not sowing the seed around other potential [00:57:00] solutions that the dentist may need to discuss with them because they need to medically, [00:57:05] legally, and that patient being led up the garden path.

Laura Horton: I think that that’s [00:57:10] a mistake that’s often made easily fixed all of these things, by the way. [00:57:15] And I think, yeah, just sort of can end up sort of throwing your dentist [00:57:20] under the bus a little bit as well by getting overexcited for a patient. [00:57:25] Yeah. And that is, it’s hard because when you are a people person and you’re connecting with this patient [00:57:30] and you’re thinking, gosh, I know I can help you, this is amazing. But you’ve missed some key things [00:57:35] such as these are prerequisites to treatment. So if the great news is Payman, if [00:57:40] you are suitable for this treatment, you will firstly need to embark on an oral health development programme. [00:57:45] We need to make sure that health of your mouth is at a really high level [00:57:50] before moving you into treatment. What happens is patients get the treatment plan. Well what’s this? Why [00:57:55] have I got to see the hygienist three times? No one told me about this. That’s a problem. [00:58:00] And definitely over promising and delivering clinics. Do that as a whole. [00:58:05]

Payman Langroudi: To make a sale sort of thing.

Laura Horton: It’s just not having the right systems in place. Like a classic [00:58:10] example would be you want to move a patient into treatment. Your hygienist is booked up for three months. [00:58:15] So what are you doing about that? Our dentist will do a quick SMP. [00:58:20] No, no. You know, be sensible. What I say to [00:58:25] clinics is every new patient exam you have like I’m big into diary zoning, every [00:58:30] new patient exam slot you have, you have a hygienist new patient slot a week later. How [00:58:35] many patients don’t need to see the hygienist come in like just.

Laura Horton: And [00:58:40] common.

Laura Horton: Sense a little bit.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah a lot of this is common sense. But you know, the common sense is often [00:58:45] the thing that needs, needs to be put into businesses. Yeah. And not not because all dentists [00:58:50] are terrible or all training is terrible. But just sometimes you need an outsider to, to tell you [00:58:55] things. You know, you haven’t, you haven’t figured out for yourself or you got into bad habits. But [00:59:00] would you say it’s different training a TCO for a high end cosmetic [00:59:05] set up or just a, you know, normal private practice [00:59:10] set up must be right.

Laura Horton: There’s different levels of treatment coordination, without a doubt. [00:59:15] Just like there’s different levels of dental nurses, different levels of dentists. So the type of TCO [00:59:20] that I am, I’m a fully utilised high level clinical treatment coordinator. [00:59:25] I have an immense amount of clinical knowledge that I [00:59:30] was lucky to be taught by ash. You know, ash was going on a [00:59:35] huge clinical journey and he’d already been on that journey, but he still [00:59:40] never stops anyway. But he would teach me everything and [00:59:45] it was fantastic. So having that amount of clinical knowledge [00:59:50] to be able to deal with patients that are having rehabilitation versus, [00:59:55] you know, just improving their dental health, there’s a big difference. Again, with treatments, [01:00:00] you tend to end up with tcos that can be pigeonholed into just one treatment, like [01:00:05] maybe like an A line, a TCO, a whitening TCO, that’s all they [01:00:10] do. So and then all they do is maybe free consultations.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Do you know what I mean? So [01:00:15] we’ve got different levels of treatment coordination in my opinion. If you’re going to have a [01:00:20] TCO you should fully utilise them, which means supporting a free consultation, [01:00:25] supporting the day of the examination appointment with a suitable handover [01:00:30] to the to the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: So the two of you together.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So for the [01:00:35] high value patients they’d have a free consultation. First I’m going to pre-screen you essentially make sure you’re [01:00:40] you’re happy with everything. You’re confident within us, you trust in us and you’re ready [01:00:45] to move forward. Also, you’ve got the money. Okay? So the day you come.

Payman Langroudi: Back, [01:00:50] dentist hasn’t met this patient at all yet.

Laura Horton: Not met them at all.

Payman Langroudi: So you just have a feel for what which way it’s going. [01:00:55]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But even to the level of you can tell this is going to go to a rehab.

Laura Horton: Depends on what they’re [01:01:00] saying. So I would not tell the patient anything in a free.

Laura Horton: In your.

Payman Langroudi: Own head.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:01:05] So if you’re talking to a patient and they are talking to me and their [01:01:10] story is perhaps that I’m just absolutely fed up with my dental practice, I [01:01:15] am always having teeth that are breaking. I’m always going backwards and forwards [01:01:20] to get repairs, and I’m just absolutely fed up. And I’m also sitting there looking [01:01:25] at them and I think, gosh, you know, your teeth are worn. Yeah, I’m not going [01:01:30] to say that. Right. But I’m thinking, gosh, you know, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: Going that direction. [01:01:35]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Your vertical dimension is completely reduced. You know, it’s um, you know, okay. [01:01:40] I would then be straight away. Thinking of which dentist is best for this patient to move them [01:01:45] into the right dentist, so I wouldn’t necessarily move them. You know, if I had a few dentists to choose [01:01:50] from, I wouldn’t necessarily move that patient into a general dentist. I’d move them into a restorative dentist [01:01:55] because they’re going to need a they’ve got a higher need but don’t need to scan them. And I don’t need [01:02:00] to take photos in this free consultation. And this can also be done virtually. Okay. [01:02:05] Right.

Payman Langroudi: The patient you have thrown out that this might be a £30,000 [01:02:10] treatment.

Laura Horton: I wouldn’t necessarily at that stage, but I would say, [01:02:15] look, if you’re you know, what do you think you need? I’d put it back on the patient. I don’t know how many teeth [01:02:20] have you got a concern with?

Payman Langroudi: I keep breaking all the time.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: So let’s have a look. Here’s a mirror. Which [01:02:25] ones are you most concerned about? And I would guide them in regards to fees. [01:02:30] Yeah. I may say to them, you know, there are occasions where some patients are having [01:02:35] chips and breakages because their bites. Not right now. Your bite is something very [01:02:40] complicated. And if that is the case, Katie will talk to you about that when [01:02:45] you see her. It’s not something that I’m sort of able to go down the route with you, but just to let you [01:02:50] know that in some certain cases that that is the case. I’m using the word case and I hate [01:02:55] the word case.

Laura Horton: Payman I.

Laura Horton: Really do. I hate it when people call a patient a case. And I’m saying case, case. [01:03:00]

Laura Horton: Case no, that.

Payman Langroudi: Is the case is different.

Laura Horton: In some.

Laura Horton: Situations that may be the case. So I’ll sow [01:03:05] a seed. It’s good to sow seeds and I’ll give the patient prices, you know.

Laura Horton: So [01:03:10] what you’ll say if, if.

Payman Langroudi: They if you do go down that route we might be looking at.

Laura Horton: It depends [01:03:15] what type of treatment you’re, you’re looking at. Yeah. But you could be looking at anything between [01:03:20] 4000 and £10,000. It could be more. It depends on your clinical situation. I’m [01:03:25] not a dentist. I can’t give you the answer to that. But you would be looking at a considerable investment. Have [01:03:30] you thought about a budget? Yeah. Because if you’re like.

Payman Langroudi: So when they go so now they [01:03:35] go £10,000.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like it’s a shock isn’t it.

Laura Horton: Oh absolutely. [01:03:40]

Payman Langroudi: It’s even a shock when a dentist says it to them when he’s going to tell them all the reasons why. But then how do you handle [01:03:45] that.

Laura Horton: So what I also do feel felt found without a doubt. But again, it’s [01:03:50] really important to have a portfolio of before and after pictures. Oh yeah. It’s golden. [01:03:55] Yeah. And I think you can’t do a free consult without it. Yeah, yeah. Because I’m then able to pull up pictures [01:04:00] of patients and I’m able to say, okay, Payman, let me show you a couple of examples. So this is a patient who came [01:04:05] to us. Totally similar situation actually. It turned out just to be one tooth that was causing all [01:04:10] the problems. That tooth was out of the bite. So that tooth was fixed. [01:04:15] This this and this was fixed. And this patient spent 3500 pounds at the [01:04:20] other end. We’ve got this patient and this was the situation and they’ve spent [01:04:25] X amount. So it’s it’s allowing them to see it [01:04:30] depends.

Payman Langroudi: So okay tell me about the second appointment with dentist.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: So the [01:04:35] handover is golden. Yeah. Right. So the patient comes back in. The patient [01:04:40] is greeted by myself again I will take them through to meet the dentist. But [01:04:45] before I do that I’ll be with the dentist and nurse. So if you’re the dentist, I’d say right. [01:04:50] Payman this patient D character don’t waffle. Get to the point. [01:04:55] Yeah, this is their concerns. This is their goal. Are you both ready? Brilliant. [01:05:00] I’ll bring the patient in and I’ll say, hi. Payman. So this is Sarah. Sarah [01:05:05] came to see me last week because she’s concerned about her smile, her teeth breaking, missing teeth, whatever [01:05:10] it might be. And Sarah feels, and I’ll repeat how Sarah told me she [01:05:15] feels emotionally about her smile. So again, they’re showing that I’ve listened, that I’ve cared. So [01:05:20] I recommended that Sarah had a comprehensive assessment with you, which is why she’s here today, so [01:05:25] that she can find out what all the options are to help her fix this problem and [01:05:30] remedy her concerns. So what I’m going to do now is I’m going to leave you with lovely Payman [01:05:35] and his wonderful nurse here, Richard, and I will see you at the end of your appointment. [01:05:40]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Okay.

Laura Horton: And that’s golden, because what that allows dentists to do. Oh, [01:05:45] sorry. There’s one thing I’ve missed that’s really important. I’ll also then try and drop in anything that’s socially [01:05:50] connects. So. Oh, did you know you’ve got children the same age. Oh. Did you know that whatever [01:05:55] I can find that connects I mean, some patients are not going to give you anything. We’ve just got to deal with it and move on. [01:06:00] But if I can find something, I will drop that in. That allows you then straightaway [01:06:05] as a dentist.

Laura Horton: And yeah.

Laura Horton: Instead of going.

Laura Horton: This is all in.

Payman Langroudi: Your training for tkos, you [01:06:10] can look out for that thing that connects. Oh, amazing.

Laura Horton: Absolutely.

Laura Horton: So rather than opening [01:06:15] script every dentist, how can I help? Oh, I’ve done that. You don’t need to repeat yourself. [01:06:20] What you need to do is go. Oh, great. Okay. How? Boy girl. Oh, yes. [01:06:25] Yeah. My. Yeah. My daughter is 12 two. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oils the rapport a little bit.

Laura Horton: Exactly. And [01:06:30] I think this is where you know dentists who do have good rapport building skills really [01:06:35] love treatment coordination because they get to go in deeper with that rather than, oh, what have you been doing [01:06:40] for work today? And rubbish, I’ve already done that. Yeah. It allows you [01:06:45] to go in deeper with it all.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so.

Laura Horton: Dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Goes through I guess three [01:06:50] options recommends one patient. Well it depends on the [01:06:55] complexity of the case isn’t it.

Laura Horton: So it depends on complexity. So firstly if it is what we’d call [01:07:00] simple you’re able to treatment plan there. And then within your assessment appointment. My advice is to always [01:07:05] treatment plan. In that appointment I will come back into the room. I’ll be part of that treatment planning. [01:07:10] This is where the nurse needs to be involved. The nurse needs to be getting all the treatment plans on the computer, [01:07:15] supporting all the notes we can’t have. Like you said earlier, nurses that don’t progress or don’t really [01:07:20] do anything. The nurse needs to be highly involved here. It needs to be a well-oiled.

Laura Horton: Machine if.

Payman Langroudi: Possible. [01:07:25] Do get that treatment. Plan out as soon as possible so that yes, they don’t go off somewhere else or.

Laura Horton: Whatever, but [01:07:30] I.

Laura Horton: Will take that patient back into the consultation room with me to go through everything they’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Second [01:07:35] hand. Over back to you.

Laura Horton: Yes. That’s interesting. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So then what are you, the one closing [01:07:40] the deal?

Laura Horton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: You must get dentists who wanted to close it themselves.

Laura Horton: That’s fine. [01:07:45]

Laura Horton: But still, instead of that patient going back to reception, joining a queue, being [01:07:50] next to Mr. Moody who’s moaning about the price of things and the lovely new car outside.

Laura Horton: She’s [01:07:55] going to.

Payman Langroudi: Cement it.

Laura Horton: I’m going to take them to a private space, and there’s nothing worse Payman than being [01:08:00] on reception. You’re busy and a new patient comes out of ten appointments to book. You’re like.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, [01:08:05] she would just book one.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, because you’re busy and you’re thinking, I can’t be dealing with this right now. And this is really [01:08:10] complicated. And look, there’s all these notes on here. Ah, it’s much better. I just take them into a private [01:08:15] space, get you another nice tea or coffee. You relax. I’ll get all of this booked and sorted [01:08:20] for you. I’ll arrange your.

Laura Horton: Finance.

Payman Langroudi: So this is best case scenario. So now let’s imagine she says, [01:08:25] I really wasn’t expecting to spend this much money. And, uh, I need [01:08:30] to talk to someone at home about it.

Laura Horton: Would you say that?

Laura Horton: I completely understand that. I’d [01:08:35] feel exactly the same as well. Yeah. What I think’s a good idea is that you can either come back [01:08:40] to see me for a complimentary consultation, not complimentary consultation. You can either come back to see me for an options [01:08:45] meeting. You can see me in person, we can book it online. Or I can arrange [01:08:50] to call you in three days time to answer all the questions that you have. What would be best for you?

Payman Langroudi: Okay, [01:08:55] so I’ll call you in three days time. Call me in three days time. Yeah.

Laura Horton: So let’s arrange a time that works for you. So let’s speak [01:09:00] on Monday. What time is best for you? And I’ll check my diary.

Laura Horton: It’s perfect.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, we go through this [01:09:05] with our salespeople, you know, like to make that.

Laura Horton: And if you’re going to make. No no no no [01:09:10] no. Yeah. What does that mean.

Laura Horton: It’s no no. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah okay. [01:09:15] So you call back and she says something like. Its [01:09:20] cost price, you know. Price objection again.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So that’s too expensive.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:09:25] What’d you say?

Laura Horton: I’d say I completely understand that now. This isn’t the only option that was available to you. [01:09:30] Let’s go back and explore the alternative options again okay. They may be a compromised [01:09:35] result. They may be a well, not a compromised result, but a compromise solution.

Payman Langroudi: But when it comes down [01:09:40] to it, what tends to happen? I think about it with my parents or whatever, you know, older people, they [01:09:45] go talk to someone else and someone else says, oh, I had my teeth done for four grand [01:09:50] and your dentist is charging 40 grand. Yeah. So go, go see go see my [01:09:55] dentist or they’re ripping you off or or whatever. So when when it finally comes down to that. [01:10:00]

Laura Horton: Yeah, it’s.

Laura Horton: Very rare when you’ve executed everything so well for [01:10:05] a patient to leave at this point. What the problem is in most practices [01:10:10] is they are forgetting to go back to the alternative options. [01:10:15] And I think it is much better for a patient to have a beautiful.

Laura Horton: Something, a. [01:10:20]

Laura Horton: Beautiful chrome denture. Yeah, that’s going to fit well. It’s still going to support [01:10:25] them enjoying food. It’s going to be aesthetically pleasing. I’d rather the patient [01:10:30] has that than six implants. They’re still with us. When the time is ready they will [01:10:35] have the implants. Yeah. But people overlook and forget. Oh well they don’t want that. You [01:10:40] know, I’ll never forget. This is a real high end clinic in Northern Ireland. I [01:10:45] will never, ever forget in my life getting a taxi from the airport to this clinic and [01:10:50] the taxi driver telling me I went there, I said, oh, did you? And they said [01:10:55] to me, are you a dentist? And what are you doing? I say, oh no, it’s just a couple of bits of materials and equipment. I’m doing like. And [01:11:00] so he started telling me and he said, yeah. So I went there and they said this was the only [01:11:05] option. Well, I went, I went to so and so practice and had this. And I’m sitting there like, oh my gosh, [01:11:10] that’s basically the alternative option. And I went in there, I said, guys like got to [01:11:15] add this into the agenda today. We’ve got to really focus on this. Your patients aren’t understanding all the options. [01:11:20] They’re just being given one option. They need to be given a clear recommendation clinically. [01:11:25] And then I need the alternative options. So it’s very [01:11:30] rare that there’s.

Payman Langroudi: The other thing. Crowd bangs on about slow lane middle lane, fast lane.

Laura Horton: I’m.

Laura Horton: All about [01:11:35] I’m all about slow.

Laura Horton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: So the law says if the guy doesn’t go ahead there [01:11:40] and then yeah, they feel like that’s a, that’s a, that’s a lost opportunity and just move on to the next [01:11:45] person. Mhm. And whereas you know the first time and perhaps this [01:11:50] is a thing when you, when you’re playing something for 20 grand the first time you approach [01:11:55] that often is months after when you actually buy the thing. Mhm. Um [01:12:00] so the follow up process, do you even get into that, into CRM and all that.

Laura Horton: So my saying [01:12:05] is your fortunes and your follow up. So you should be proactively follow up with patients. Like I just [01:12:10] said can I call you in three days. Yeah I’m just going to call you out of the blue. That’s awful. Everyone hates that. We [01:12:15] need to be proactive with follow up. It’s really important. It’s a KPI that I get my [01:12:20] CEOs to track as well. So how many people are in follow up? What’s the percentage of conversion out [01:12:25] of follow up each month, and what income has come out of follow up each month as well? Because it’s a critical [01:12:30] system within your clinic and it’s a responsibility of a TCO. And I’d rather [01:12:35] if we go back to handling leads, I’d rather a tcos bang on it with the follow up and [01:12:40] converting patients that we know can have treatment plans of four, six, [01:12:45] ten K than dealing with a lead who’s not even ready to move forward. Of course. Yeah, because [01:12:50] they’ve got the skill set to do that. They should have. And if not they’ll be trained to do that. The other thing, [01:12:55] just going back to the assessment days, if the dentist needs time to treatment plan, [01:13:00] great.

Laura Horton: I really encourage that. I think that’s great. And it’s a lovely message to [01:13:05] patients that the dentist needs to take time out of their diary to treatment plan all the solutions for you. [01:13:10] So the idea would then be that a TCO supports the dentist. A lot [01:13:15] of dentists are sitting up late at night, their treatment planning to all hours spending their weekends [01:13:20] doing this. They’re not getting to enjoy their family. Their health suffers. They don’t eat like so [01:13:25] many things. Whereas you know, with the TCO and treatment planning, you work together [01:13:30] as a team. And I, you know, take 90% of the non-clinical stuff off. You give [01:13:35] it all back to you to check it’s all done. And then instead of chucking that to in an email, [01:13:40] the patient comes back. I can do it online if I want, sure, but you invite the patient [01:13:45] back for a complimentary options meeting where me, the dentist and the patient are [01:13:50] sat there together and the dentist goes for everything and the dentist presents [01:13:55] the fee. Because I feel this is a really big thing. Dentists aren’t presenting [01:14:00] the fees to patients. It looks like they don’t believe in their own work.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:14:05] I mean, yeah, if you want to say that, I find it when a dentist, there’s a there’s [01:14:10] a common thing. I don’t know if you’ve come across it. Yeah. Patient says how much is a crown. Dentist says I’m not [01:14:15] sure. Like as if as if it’s plucked.

Laura Horton: Out the sky. No.

Payman Langroudi: As if he’s something he’s never done before [01:14:20] or, you know, like, for me, if a dentist doesn’t know the price of something, it means he hasn’t done it very often. Yeah. [01:14:25]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So. But this but this, I’m not sure. They almost say it as if money is not in my head. [01:14:30] Yeah, sort of thing. I’m not sure.

Laura Horton: Talk to talk to your desk or.

Payman Langroudi: We can talk it up later or [01:14:35] something. It’s like it’s an uncomfortable moment.

Laura Horton: Really uncomfortable.

Laura Horton: For some. But I think I’ll [01:14:40] never forget when I first again started working for ash. And we had this husband [01:14:45] and wife in, and I remember each of their treatment plans was 12 K each. And ash [01:14:50] said, right, you’re our go for everything clinically, and then you’re going to tell them the fee. [01:14:55] And I was like, what, like 24 K’s is like more than I earn. I was totally like, I’d [01:15:00] only been there like a week. I was like, what the heck is going on in this practice? I don’t know, he’s like, yeah, we’ll just try all this. It’s [01:15:05] something new. He was saying that where I am, and I was sat here and he [01:15:10] said, oh, any more questions? They said, no, what’s the price? And ash said, Laura [01:15:15] will tell you that. And I was rigid to my seat. I was petrified and ash couldn’t get [01:15:20] out behind me, and he was trying to squeeze behind me. It was a bit of a comical scene. Looking back, [01:15:25] he got stuck in between the wall and the chair and he’s like, Laura, can you move? Can you move? And I was like, [01:15:30] no, like I’m scared. He left and I remember he was [01:15:35] called Neil and he said, are you all right, Laura? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:15:40]

Laura Horton: So basically it’s £12,000 each. And they never went ahead and I don’t blame them. And I followed up with them and [01:15:45] they never went ahead. And I said that to ash, I said, you need to present the fee. And he’s like, yeah, it’s you know, [01:15:50] this is like 20 years ago. He’s like, oh, it’s really uncomfortable. I was like, don’t worry, we’ll work on it together. [01:15:55] Like, I can quote, I can give patients treatment plans. We’ve had serious [01:16:00] treatment plans three where I’m not scared or worried or confident [01:16:05] to tell the patient, but it’s better if it comes from the clinician. But that whole process, [01:16:10] again, is really refined because we don’t we want patients to get their treatment [01:16:15] plans quickly. Momentum is key. If they’re just sitting there in a pile on the dentist desk. We’ve become [01:16:20] nagging, nagging wives at work as tcos. If we’re female, have you done it yet? Have you done it yet? Have you done [01:16:25] it yet? No one wants that. It’s another system. It’s another process. It does improve [01:16:30] your conversion rate, not necessarily the speed of it, but it does increase your conversion rate because [01:16:35] of the way that it the way that it’s done. But slow is best. Sometimes things are just too fast.

Laura Horton: To encourage.

Payman Langroudi: Performance [01:16:40] related pay. Do you encourage sharing numbers with the team? [01:16:45]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s funny because I come across loads of dentists don’t want to do that. [01:16:50] Yeah, yeah. Well over here we, we, we send [01:16:55] an email to every single member of staff every day on sales.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Good. Yeah, yeah. [01:17:00]

Payman Langroudi: What do you think.

Laura Horton: Yeah. No. And that’s what I really enjoyed actually about when I first started working with ash, this [01:17:05] openness about all the figures. And there was a team bonus and it was really [01:17:10] fair. It was a great bonus. I would say I probably got the most in the bonus pot most [01:17:15] months, but that’s because I was performing so well. But it was fair and everyone was involved and I really liked [01:17:20] that. And it was really clear like, we are a business, this is our target, this is our break [01:17:25] even figure. This is our target, this is what we need to achieve. And if we achieve this, there’s a bonus. [01:17:30] Simple. It’s hard work for everyone. And there was complete transparency about the figures [01:17:35] at all times. It was just, you know, it can often be an elephant [01:17:40] in the room. Just get it out there. Why did you.

Laura Horton: Come across practice?

Payman Langroudi: You don’t want to.

Laura Horton: I don’t want to. Some [01:17:45] don’t know their own figures. Firstly that’s why. Yeah. And maybe it’s a bit of embarrassment [01:17:50] because there’s a lot of, you know, bury your head in the sand mentality, which I understand. [01:17:55] But you’ve got to know your figures. You’ve got to know what’s going on in your business. And then I do think, [01:18:00] yes, sharing everything with your team is really important. I know I’m going to be doing that with my team. [01:18:05] Like this is our break even figure every month. Like we’ve got to at least hit this. It’s [01:18:10] really important that we’ve got to pay the bills, we’ve got the payroll, we need to hit this. But actually this is our [01:18:15] target. And that’s what what we need to get to. I think complete transparency is.

Laura Horton: Important [01:18:20] as a nurse.

Payman Langroudi: When when you see a treatment plan that’s more than your annual salary. [01:18:25] How does that feel? Yeah.

Laura Horton: It is [01:18:30] difficult if you’re not paid well. And I do feel now team [01:18:35] members are paid better. Yeah, I would definitely say, you know, working with ash, everyone [01:18:40] was paid well. Initially there wasn’t there was a big disparity, um, big [01:18:45] issue across both practices. So where I worked, actually, everyone was paid a lot less. In the [01:18:50] other practice. Everyone was paid a lot more that that got sorted out. Everyone was put on the same pay because I was like, this is ridiculous. [01:18:55] You can’t. I think it’s about understanding your [01:19:00] practice where you work and understanding the figures. Because if you know that actually [01:19:05] just to pay the bills, the clinic needs to take 42 K. Yeah, [01:19:10] just to pay the bills. Yeah. Then if you see a 20 K treatment plan, [01:19:15] no bones is.

Laura Horton: It. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Whereas team members if they don’t [01:19:20] know they have no clue I’ll often break things down, you know. What do [01:19:25] you think here’s I think I got this from Chris Burrow actually here’s £100. Here’s [01:19:30] £100. What’s coming out of this £100 and then what’s left. Oh great. So that’s left for [01:19:35] the owner. Plus by the way they’re getting taxed on that. And it’s a real eye opener. But [01:19:40] I think if you’re transparent with your break even just be with your break even costs. [01:19:45]

Payman Langroudi: Well I found when I was a dentist I used to ask my nurse, [01:19:50] how much do you think the boss makes? Yeah. And the numbers people would come [01:19:55] out with. Yeah, well, way more like way more than what this guy was earning. [01:20:00] And yet this guy wasn’t disclosing any of the numbers to the team. And, [01:20:05] you know, when I actually told one of my bosses he had a swimming pool in his house, and [01:20:10] somehow people translated that as he’s earning £3 million a year, you know, that [01:20:15] just just that fact that he had a swimming pool and he wasn’t he wasn’t anything near that. No. Um, [01:20:20] so the transparency question around around actually, that’s why we instituted [01:20:25] it here. Because because of all of this. Yeah. Because of asking these questions. Um, [01:20:30] I think we need to be open more open about it. And you’re absolutely right. People have no idea how much [01:20:35] it costs to run a dental practice per minute. Right. Exactly.

Laura Horton: That’s it per.

Laura Horton: Minute. [01:20:40]

Laura Horton: And I think that is really important with the front of house team. Then they know then to fill white space. [01:20:45] This is costing us, you know, £2.65 a minute because that space is [01:20:50] sat there. I yeah I think it is really important to be super transparent. [01:20:55] You don’t have to share what you pay. I think maybe that’s a misunderstanding that clinic [01:21:00] owners think sharing the finances means showing what. [01:21:05]

Laura Horton: I’m being.

Laura Horton: Paid. Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I’m being paid as the boss.

Laura Horton: As the boss? Yeah.

Laura Horton: You [01:21:10] don’t need to share that at all. Yeah. You know, I used to love it when, you know, Mitesh would come in [01:21:15] the morning. Bless him. He was always late for our morning huddle. And I’d give him his day sheet and I’d go. You’re [01:21:20] in for invoicing through 1800 today, mitesh. And he’d be like, nice. [01:21:25] Yeah. And I remember when Mitesh got a Porsche, I [01:21:30] was like, well chuffed for him. I was like, well done, mate. You deserve.

Laura Horton: That. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Like, you’re working [01:21:35] really hard, working really well, and you’re investing in your skill set. I think, again, [01:21:40] it’s not just about the money, it’s about the clinician and what they’ve done. When I asked [01:21:45] Tcos to put Usp’s together, they’re like, oh, I don’t know. I don’t know [01:21:50] why my clinic owner is so great. Go and ask them how much they’ve invested in their education. [01:21:55] Go and ask them. You know, I used to with permission from ash, in the end tell patients [01:22:00] when patients were being really like, well, okay, Laura, like I understand you’ve just given me this treatment [01:22:05] plan today from this smile makeovers, £12,000. But I know down the road it’s 6000. [01:22:10] I’ve been in there too, because this was a problem we had in Hornchurch.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: And I’d say look, [01:22:15] that’s absolutely fine. And you can always get things cheaper elsewhere in life. [01:22:20] But what it goes into this fee is Ash’s skill set [01:22:25] and the investment that he has made in his education. And I’m proud [01:22:30] of what he has invested in his education because he hasn’t invested it in [01:22:35] anything else. And I tell patients what that cost was and they’d be like, okay, [01:22:40] yeah, I want someone who’s spent a quarter of £1 million on their education. That’s [01:22:45] that is the guy for me.

Payman Langroudi: Or it seems to me like you’re a sort of pure bred [01:22:50] salesperson. You know.

Laura Horton: My mum always said that, though. She always said [01:22:55] you could sell eyes to escalation.

Laura Horton: Could?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, almost. The thrill you get [01:23:00] it is.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Talking about it.

Laura Horton: I also have always really enjoyed [01:23:05] difficult patients and people think I’m mental.

Laura Horton: I love difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Dentists. You were saying?

Laura Horton: Oh, [01:23:10] always.

Laura Horton: I was always the nurse that got put with a difficult dentist and I’d just run the show, [01:23:15] you know, why are they the difficult dentists? Because people are maybe [01:23:20] a little bit scared of them and too scared to be like, oh, which which material [01:23:25] did you want for this? Yeah. And I’d be like, what do you want? Like, yeah, [01:23:30] okay. Is that how you want it? Is that. No. Okay, I’ll do it again. I’m not emotional about it. [01:23:35] I think people get too emotional about things anyway.

Laura Horton: Hello, boss. Are you.

Laura Horton: I. I’m a very [01:23:40] fair boss because I get extremely irritated in life with unfairness. [01:23:45]

Laura Horton: Oh, yeah?

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I people also ask me often, how do you know so much [01:23:50] about HR? I know so much about HR because of how I’ve been treated [01:23:55] as an employee. And my mum would she wouldn’t come and [01:24:00] fight my corner for me. She’s not going to turn up with me, is she? Do you know what I mean? Like, I hate it when that happens. By the way, with [01:24:05] trainee nurses, they’re like, mum turns up with them to have a moan. It’s like, go away. But she [01:24:10] would say, this is wrong. Only you can fix it. And you need to stand up for yourself and you [01:24:15] need to get all the facts. So I was always down the Citizens Advice Bureau. Do you remember we didn’t have [01:24:20] on you didn’t have internet? Yeah. Um, yeah. So I used to [01:24:25] sort of fight, fight for things. My mum would be like, you’ve got only you can do that, you know [01:24:30] it’s wrong. You’ve got to stand up for it. And I think that’s, you know, always been a big part of [01:24:35] me as well. Like fairness. I’m the eldest of three girls. I was probably, I felt, [01:24:40] treated quite unfairly growing up, like as the elder sister, like my other sister got things [01:24:45] before I was allowed them. Things like that. Hated it, I don’t know.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, I see as a.

Laura Horton: As [01:24:50] a as a sibling. No.

Payman Langroudi: As an you were 16 and you’re 13 year old. Yeah. Sister [01:24:55] was getting things at 13 that due to 1415.

Laura Horton: You know that’s normal I know. [01:25:00] But you really get.

Payman Langroudi: Things for being the oldest as.

Laura Horton: Well. No.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe that’s an eastern thing. [01:25:05] It definitely is an eastern thing.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: No, no.

Laura Horton: The oldest.

Payman Langroudi: Seems to get [01:25:10] first dibs on stuff.

Laura Horton: No, no.

Laura Horton: I was I [01:25:15] feel my youngest. Faye. Yeah. Faye got away with everything.

Payman Langroudi: Because she was the cute [01:25:20] little one.

Laura Horton: She got away with murder.

Laura Horton: She even had, like, one of mum and Dad’s credit [01:25:25] cards. Like an additional card holder. When me and Sarah found out, we were like.

Laura Horton: What is she.

Payman Langroudi: A lot younger. [01:25:30]

Laura Horton: She’s nine years younger than me.

Payman Langroudi: She. What sometimes happens is the family situation changes.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [01:25:35] it.

Payman Langroudi: Did in that nine years, you know like.

Laura Horton: Totally so.

Payman Langroudi: So so suddenly, you know your parents were like [01:25:40] more well to do nine years later. Yeah. And so they could afford to do things for her. And you know. [01:25:45]

Laura Horton: If I was living in the house with the swimming pool.

Payman Langroudi: Is that right?

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: But [01:25:50] no. So as a boss, I feel that I’m very fair. I’m very understanding. [01:25:55] I’m always wanting to listen to someone’s concern [01:26:00] or complaint and always understand things from their side. So I will [01:26:05] always question and listen and. But why is that? Why do you think that’s happening? How is that making [01:26:10] you feel? Okay, fine. However, I am also very firm. Yeah, [01:26:15] I’m also very firm in that that’s, you know, you’ve come into work late. I’m [01:26:20] pulling you aside. Yeah. What’s what’s happening? Nice way. First of all. But you know what’s [01:26:25] happened. Your contracted start time is 830. It is 832. You should be ready to work [01:26:30] at 830. What’s happened this morning? And it might be you’ve had a terrible time. Yeah, [01:26:35] yeah. And I’m like, okay, look, I’ll sit and talk to you about it. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But the line [01:26:40] between both and friendship.

Laura Horton: Oh, yeah, it’s really difficult.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a difficult one, isn’t [01:26:45] it.

Laura Horton: It is, I think I, I think I did really well with it [01:26:50] in particularly when I started managing the Hartford practice. So in Hornchurch, [01:26:55] when I managed that practice, ash said to me, you can’t be friends with anyone when you’re the practice [01:27:00] manager now. I was already friends with everyone. Yeah, I was the TCO. Yeah. And now he’s like, you need [01:27:05] to be my manager and you can’t be friends with anyone. And I was like, oh, but we all get on really well and we [01:27:10] go out for curries and stuff. And so it was just an open communication of, [01:27:15] right, okay, listen, I’m in I’m in boss mode now and you’ve just got to respect [01:27:20] me as your manager and what I’m saying to you. And then, yeah, we’ll have a laugh tonight when we’re out having a curry or whatever. [01:27:25]

Payman Langroudi: So you found it easy to navigate there.

Laura Horton: I think if you’re being open with your communication, it’s fine. What [01:27:30] I found harder was when I started managing the Hartford Clinic, where they were all younger [01:27:35] than me. Yeah. And I found that difficult because they were like, oh, Laura. Yeah. Do you want [01:27:40] to come out clubbing with us on Friday night? And I’d be like, oh no. Also, Cheryl, [01:27:45] who I just mentioned, Cheryl was working there, and Cheryl actually used to pull me aside. And she [01:27:50] used to be like, you’re really hard on me. You’re much harder on me than others. And I’d say, look, mate, [01:27:55] I have to be in a way I don’t want to be, but they have to see I’m not letting [01:28:00] anything slip with you.

Laura Horton: Yeah, because you were already, buddy. We’re already.

Laura Horton: Friends. Yeah, they [01:28:05] have to see that. And she was like, yeah, I know, I get it. But sometimes I think, like, you know, it’s not fair. And [01:28:10] I’ll be like, well, that’s the way it is. If you want to work here, I’m your manager. I’m also your friend. [01:28:15] You’re not getting an easy ride. It’s a harder ride. Yeah.

Laura Horton: It was overcompensated. Yeah. [01:28:20]

Laura Horton: Because you can’t let it will be thrown back in your face. There’s a great book called The [01:28:25] Five Levels of Leadership by John C Maxwell. You come across it. It’s really good and [01:28:30] I love it. And I used to teach it in a practice management program. And because it really helps you to identify [01:28:35] whether you should be friends with people or not. So what [01:28:40] it says is a level one leader. And when you’re at level one, which is the lowest level, just to confirm, [01:28:45] that’s, you know, a team member, an employee does something because you [01:28:50] are their boss. That’s it. You’re their boss. You’ve told them to do it. They’re doing it. Yeah. A level two [01:28:55] leader means they’re doing it because they like you as well as you being their boss. [01:29:00] So what I always used to say to managers was like, this is your first goal is to get to level two with everyone. [01:29:05] You don’t have to like each other. You don’t have to be friends, but you need to put the [01:29:10] effort in because this whole you shouldn’t be friends, don’t connect with your team. I don’t think [01:29:15] is great leadership. It’s management, but it’s not leadership. And I’m very much into leadership. [01:29:20] Yeah. And then a level three leader, um, is then about what you’ve done for that person. [01:29:25] So we’re talking about progression, supporting their development, giving them training. A [01:29:30] level four leader is about also what you’ve done for the organisation. So they can see you’ve [01:29:35] developed the patient experience. You develop this whatever it might be. A level five leader [01:29:40] is like.

Laura Horton: Nelson Mandela. Do you know.

Laura Horton: What I mean? So [01:29:45] my goal within leadership is to be at level four with everyone. And I think that’s a great place [01:29:50] for clinic owners and managers to be. And you don’t need to worry about being level five. I’d [01:29:55] say ash is level five. I’d always describe ash as a level five leader, but yeah, as [01:30:00] a manager and clinic owner, if you can get to level four, which means you’re doing great things for them, [01:30:05] for the company and you’ve got a connection, even if it’s at a basic level, [01:30:10] you’re going to be doing really well.

Payman Langroudi: I guess in your in your time, you’ve had to fire a bunch of people. Oh, [01:30:15] God.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think, do you think when you know, like, do you think it’s [01:30:20] ever makes sense to like, not fire someone when you think [01:30:25] you should fire them, they give them a second chance? Or because every time I’ve done that, it hasn’t worked.

Laura Horton: Okay, [01:30:30] bear with me.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: I distinctively [01:30:35] remember one week and it was a Monday. And Rahul said to me, hey [01:30:40] Laura, what are your goals for this week? And I said, my goals for this week are not [01:30:45] to fire anyone because I hate it. And the last three weeks in a row, I fired [01:30:50] people across both practices and I don’t like it, I hate it. And he’s like, [01:30:55] yeah, but you’re really good at it. I said, don’t care if I’m good at it. I don’t like it and I’m not.

Laura Horton: Why are you why.

Payman Langroudi: Were [01:31:00] you firing so many? Was it one of those practices where you would hire a lot and fire a lot? We would.

Laura Horton: We would we. [01:31:05]

Laura Horton: Would fire quickly and definitely let people go quite quickly. Our [01:31:10] induction, um, was intense and it was intense for a reason. You’re either [01:31:15] able to progress quite quickly within the training and dedication that we’re giving you or [01:31:20] you’re not, and people stand out. And it wasn’t necessarily you’re being fired. It’s do you know [01:31:25] what? You know, you’ve put a lot of effort in. I don’t think we’re the right practice for you. And they’d often go, [01:31:30] no, I’m really missing my old practice. I’d be like, okay, why don’t you go back there then?

Laura Horton: Um. [01:31:35]

Laura Horton: I remember one person I had to fire was a hygienist. I’d never [01:31:40] even met the woman before I was in Hornchurch. Rahul called me up. You need to come and fire this person. And I [01:31:45] was like, oh my God, this is the worst day of my life. And I hated it. And she was really upset. And she’s like, but why? But why? [01:31:50] And I’m trying to give her like reasons and stuff. And I’m thinking, I don’t really know. Like this is [01:31:55] horrible. I hated it, hated that day. That was probably one of the worst.

Laura Horton: And yet you.

Payman Langroudi: Were [01:32:00] that soldier that they use. So are you the person who’s just going to do everything, whatever it takes [01:32:05] to do the job?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah, because the job. What [01:32:10] do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think that determination comes from?

Laura Horton: I’m very.

Laura Horton: I’m very stubborn [01:32:15] as a person, but I don’t know where the determination comes from. I just I don’t know. [01:32:20]

Laura Horton: Your dad. No, I don’t know this.

Payman Langroudi: Sense of unfairness.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I [01:32:25] don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know what it is. But, yeah, I’m very determined. If I’m doing something, I’m doing it. Um, [01:32:30] and.

Payman Langroudi: Like, over the years, my interactions with you, I’ve always noticed you even taking [01:32:35] care of stuff yourself that I would outsource. Mhm. Yeah. And [01:32:40] that shows like a curiosity as well. Like a massive curiosity for what’s what. [01:32:45]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Um I love to learn.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Laura Horton: So [01:32:50] I have got an amazing VA Allison. She’s my tech queen and she’s taught me [01:32:55] a lot about tech. How great is she? That’s her business. And I’ve gone, oh, yeah, I want to know this. I want to know [01:33:00] that, you know, and she’s taught me things. So I love editing my own videos. I don’t particularly [01:33:05] love filming them. Um, you know, but yeah, I do like to do different things, [01:33:10] but only so that I can master something and then share with my team how to do it. So you mentioned CRMs [01:33:15] earlier. Like, I absolutely love CRMs. I think they’re awesome. Um, and I’ve just done [01:33:20] a big migration myself for my company because my CRM just wasn’t cutting the mustard anymore. So [01:33:25] I went back to my first ever CRM, and already with Sheryl, it’s like, right, [01:33:30] let me teach you how to do this. Let me teach you how to do that. She’s like, oh, I love learning this stuff. We’re very [01:33:35] like minded people, but I know, I don’t know where determination comes from. [01:33:40] I just I see it more as being stubborn, I guess.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:33:45] mean, the great sort of assets. Right? The pure bred sort of sales person [01:33:50] determined, fair, like you’re like, you’ve obviously come far already, but [01:33:55] it’s, it’s gonna it’s gonna take you far and let’s now get to [01:34:00] darker times.

Laura Horton: Let’s go dark.

Payman Langroudi: But we like on this pod. [01:34:05] We like to talk about mistakes, and generally it tends to be a clinical error. By the way, [01:34:10] I’m happy for you to discuss a clinical error. Don’t mention the dentist name, but. Errors. [01:34:15] What comes to mind when I tell you when I say errors?

Laura Horton: I [01:34:20] had a situation quite a few years ago where [01:34:25] I was expanding my team and took someone on who I had [01:34:30] a fantastic connection with, and she was a practice manager [01:34:35] and we had an equal love for marketing, and I was really looking [01:34:40] at growing my consultancy at this time into all different areas. So for example, [01:34:45] we were doing qualifications, post qualifications for nurses, impression taking, training. [01:34:50] The management training is now very much back to its core. What I love treatment [01:34:55] coordination and the patient experience. So with that in mind, we’ve really progressed forward with [01:35:00] with the marketing aspect. And we we got on brilliantly. [01:35:05] But there then became a situation that arose. And I’d say [01:35:10] the reason it was very difficult is because one, I really liked this person [01:35:15] and I trusted them. I came to my wedding. And [01:35:20] they stabbed me in the back.

Payman Langroudi: Financially.

Laura Horton: Not financially, [01:35:25] but they basically I was told by the lovely [01:35:30] Michael Bentley, who’s worked for me for many, many years. Basically it was something like Michael [01:35:35] messaged me, what’s going on with you? And you two need to bang your heads together. [01:35:40] That’s a bit like a comment from your mum, isn’t it? And I said, no, you need to call me. And [01:35:45] I can’t remember the ins and outs of exactly what has happened. And on this phone call he, he said, [01:35:50] oh gosh, I’ve got something to tell you. And she had been on to [01:35:55] him and also to Rachel, who worked for me at the time, saying, let’s leave, Laura, let’s set up [01:36:00] on our own. I was gutted, gutted. Michael told her, no. She [01:36:05] said, absolutely no way. I would never, ever do that. But I’d let her in to [01:36:10] my business. And like I just said, I’d like to share. I like to learn things and share things, and I’d shared [01:36:15] so much because I wanted her to grow as a person, and she was really just taking it all [01:36:20] for her own good and was going to set up on her own. But she did, [01:36:25] and it failed. So where’s.

Payman Langroudi: The error? Trusting her?

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:36:30] not going to let you.

Laura Horton: Get away with that.

Laura Horton: Let me get away with it.

Laura Horton: Okay. That’s awful.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:36:35] the answer to a different question.

Laura Horton: I’ve got a worst.

Payman Langroudi: Day at work or.

Laura Horton: Something. Okay. All right.

Laura Horton: I’ve got another one then. Error.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:36:40] Mistake.

Payman Langroudi: Something. Something we can learn from.

Laura Horton: I’ll tell you what.

Payman Langroudi: Because trusting people. [01:36:45]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Okay.

Laura Horton: I have got one. I don’t really like to talk about it. You know, the pandemic. Sorry, [01:36:50] but I’m going to mention it. I know everyone’s over it. Pandemic comes along, and, um. [01:36:55] It’s a scary time, isn’t it? For every business owner, you’re like, shit. Yeah. And [01:37:00] I just sort of went off on a tangent with Michael [01:37:05] creating something, trying to reinvent the wheel and and creating something [01:37:10] new, which was a complete disaster. Yeah. I had sitting there my [01:37:15] treatment coordination program 1.0 is 4.0 [01:37:20] is about to release. I had it sitting there like, it’s like my baby. And [01:37:25] I could have monopolised that without a doubt. To all these dentists that are going [01:37:30] online doing virtual consultations. But instead I’m like creating this whole other program. [01:37:35] I’m up to all hours Payman like and getting up at 5 a.m.. Um, [01:37:40] the weather was nice. I had to walk the dog early, but, you know, yeah, that was [01:37:45] a.

Laura Horton: Bit of.

Payman Langroudi: That. We all did a bit of.

Laura Horton: That because.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ll tell you something. I’ve noticed here that [01:37:50] since the pandemic ended, when we had the pandemic, [01:37:55] the amount of content just exploded, right? Exploded. And it made [01:38:00] me realise that dentist actually worked quite hard. Right? Because, you know, we could spend this time doing this [01:38:05] content. Right. And, and I do this one hour a week sort of thing. Yeah. And you [01:38:10] know, for me it’s one of one of many hours like, yeah, it’s not like I’m working [01:38:15] every hour. Yeah. So everyone well I’m quite open about it. I’m [01:38:20] not constantly working every hour. I’m not. That’s not me. Yeah I do sometimes stay up till [01:38:25] 4 a.m. thinking about something. Yeah. Yeah that happens. Right. And I don’t class that as working. Yeah. But [01:38:30] anyway when the pandemic happened you realised my god yeah there’s [01:38:35] all this content and there’s as soon as everyone opened up again the content just completely [01:38:40] died. Yeah. And so yeah, but but what I’m saying is [01:38:45] everyone went through a bit of this. Yeah. Yeah. So you made a whole new course and. [01:38:50]

Laura Horton: Well, then it sort of wasn’t needed because it.

Laura Horton: Was pandemic course. Yeah, [01:38:55] yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: I the message was, you know, that don’t [01:39:00] reinvent something, don’t reinvent something and don’t make decisions [01:39:05] based on fear and panic. I’d never felt fear and panic in my life [01:39:10] until that point. And I felt fear and panic. Yeah, because I had a [01:39:15] little boy and I was about to move and travel my mortgage and everything else that goes with it.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:39:20] now I’m thinking about it. I drew some pictures of these hydrogen peroxide, the thing to [01:39:25] wash fruits with, you know, remember, you’re washing stuff in the supermarket.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:39:30] it was hydrogen peroxide people were using for that, right? Yes.

Laura Horton: And reinventing the wheel. Yeah. [01:39:35] Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: We we don’t need to do it. We need to just be like, what works? [01:39:40] Let’s focus on that. And it was. Yeah, I definitely say it was a strange time for me because [01:39:45] I’d never felt like that. I’m always a go getter. This is what I’m doing. I’m really sure it was the first time I [01:39:50] probably wasn’t sure of things which which was quite difficult. [01:39:55] And I was also consumed by fear. And never in my life had I had [01:40:00] I been in that situation of feeling fearful. I was scared of [01:40:05] getting Covid. I was really scared about it all. And then it was okay. [01:40:10] In the end. I took took a, you know, gave myself a talking to and said, sort yourself out, Laura.

Payman Langroudi: It [01:40:15] was a funny situation, man.

Laura Horton: Yeah, but the.

Laura Horton: Media did a great job of scaring people that weren’t even normally. Scared, let [01:40:20] alone those that probably lived with anxiety. There must have been horrendous situation. But yeah, it was. I [01:40:25] gave myself and talking to her, I was like, right, okay, I’m moving on now.

Payman Langroudi: Different. Different pod. Yeah. But we [01:40:30] do this, uh, mental health pod.

Laura Horton: Yeah. With Reiner. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, we’ve been [01:40:35] grappling with this question of suicide. Why dentists? Why do dentists commit suicide? And [01:40:40] and, you know, we’ve been thinking about it, and it’s definitely a multifactorial [01:40:45] thing, I’m sure. But why would you say that? Some dentists adore their lives [01:40:50] and we’ve come across them.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And some the opposite. And what, [01:40:55] you’ve seen so many dentists. Right. Um, just owners. Associates. [01:41:00] What would you say is the thread running through the ones who are loving it [01:41:05] and the ones who are hating their lives? And by the way, it switches, right? [01:41:10]

Laura Horton: You get.

Payman Langroudi: People who adore.

Laura Horton: It. Who?

Payman Langroudi: Who then hate it. Yeah. Or adore their life and hate [01:41:15] their life.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What? What comes to mind when I say that?

Laura Horton: I think from all [01:41:20] the dentists that I’ve worked with as a nurse, as a trainer consultant, [01:41:25] it is really difficult. Like you say, you can’t put one finger on it. But [01:41:30] if I think of the dentist that I know that are perhaps the happiest, [01:41:35] shall we say? Yeah. They lower their expectations of [01:41:40] themselves and what they’re going to do, and they don’t add [01:41:45] adverse pressure to themselves either. They’re not worried [01:41:50] about keeping up with the Joneses, which I think for mature dentists has been a massive [01:41:55] thing over the years. Like, they don’t care what car they drive. They don’t care about their [01:42:00] kids going to the prep school. They’ve sort of had a bit of a reality check [01:42:05] in that sense. I don’t know whether that’s come from parents, from peers, from hearing [01:42:10] these awful stories of dentists committing suicide. I don’t know, [01:42:15] but I would say those that are happiest in life are the ones that probably [01:42:20] have less. So they have less pressures, I don’t know.

Laura Horton: I think that’s.

Payman Langroudi: A fact [01:42:25] though.

Laura Horton: Yeah. I don’t feel like I can really talk about mental health I’ve never experienced and [01:42:30] I feel very happy. Lucky about that. I’ve never experienced mental health issues or concerns [01:42:35] in my life, but I would say that would be one thing. I think if financial [01:42:40] pressure is an absolutely huge thing, I know [01:42:45] from listening to another podcast that I listen to, that most relationships end due to financial [01:42:50] pressures and financial worries, and I would assume that that [01:42:55] carries a lot of weight in day to day life as well. Financial pressures and financial [01:43:00] worries. And you don’t need to you don’t [01:43:05] need to have the house with the swimming pool.

Payman Langroudi: It happens, though, doesn’t it? I know what you mean, but [01:43:10] it happens. You stick your kid in that school, then you know who they say you compare [01:43:15] yourself most to.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, as a man, the husband of [01:43:20] your wife’s sister.

Laura Horton: All right. Yeah. Really?

Payman Langroudi: You can understand it, right? In a way, right? Yeah. [01:43:25] Um, but but I’d say that the keeping up with the Joneses thing is, is is one of the [01:43:30] biggest sort of cancers in life. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely is. Yeah. But I can see how [01:43:35] people fall into it. Yeah. Because of this similar sort of thing. Schools and holidays and. [01:43:40]

Laura Horton: Things get carried away, don’t they get, you know, carried away.

Laura Horton: Could you imagine.

Payman Langroudi: You’d imagine dentists [01:43:45] right at the end of the day earning quite well. Yeah. Yeah. Quite. Well I don’t, I don’t [01:43:50] necessarily think it’s, it’s only about money I think like I [01:43:55] talk to my, my, my cousin, he’s a, he’s an eye doctor. Eye surgeon. Yeah. And he says he’s [01:44:00] got some days where it’s GA. Yeah. And some days where it’s LA. And he says on the LA days [01:44:05] he’s much more tired and stressed than on the GA days. Yeah. Because [01:44:10] the patients, you know, live patients are scared patient. Yeah. And you know we have that all day every [01:44:15] day scared people and your every move. And then and then I was [01:44:20] going to get to sorry. Yeah. The nurse.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah yeah. In this room four walls. You and the [01:44:25] nurse. Everyone else is a customer of sorts, right? Yeah. So if that relationship’s [01:44:30] not good.

Laura Horton: Oh, God awful.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s this multifactorial thing that happens, right? [01:44:35] Keeping up with the Joneses? Yeah. Your relationship with your nurse? Yeah. Something’s [01:44:40] gone wrong.

Laura Horton: Partner at home.

Payman Langroudi: Partner at home? Yeah. And, you.

Laura Horton: Know, nurse hates [01:44:45] you. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Practice manager hates you.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: The patients tell you they hate you [01:44:50] all day long. I think it’s very difficult. One thing I always try to express to team members is like, it [01:44:55] is really difficult being a dentist and your dentist has gone on this journey, which [01:45:00] is absolutely amazing. These are the investments they’ve made in their education or this is development in their clinical skills. [01:45:05] But you know what? Their life hasn’t got easier. Their life has got harder. And as team members, [01:45:10] we need to support our dentists at all times. This is also our treatment [01:45:15] coordination like is in my opinion critical because [01:45:20] of well it takes the pressure off. But we can also identify patients that you might [01:45:25] want to reconsider treating because that can be another thing that adds another layer. [01:45:30] Isn’t it difficult patient, complaining patient. All of these things build up. We can give you your [01:45:35] time back. You need to relax. You don’t need to be sitting up. Treatment planning, not not taking care [01:45:40] of your health, not eating properly. You know, so many dentists don’t even eat properly. You’re unbelievable. [01:45:45] Like it’s not. Surely. I know you probably get used to it, but I can’t go from breakfast through [01:45:50] to dinner without eating. I would. I would faint.

Laura Horton: Like this is.

Payman Langroudi: What you get [01:45:55] used to.

Laura Horton: It. That’s what you get used to. But I think I’ve always.

Payman Langroudi: Maintained four days is enough for dentistry.

Laura Horton: I [01:46:00] think. So it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Too hard to do five days a.

Laura Horton: Week. Well, I.

Laura Horton: Couldn’t, I couldn’t do.

Laura Horton: It.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [01:46:05] I couldn’t do it. One of the things we’ve, um. Katie, my business partner. Right. Which [01:46:10] I said to her about setting up this practice is I want you to have the most [01:46:15] amazing work life as a dentist. I am [01:46:20] determined and excited to change your working life as a dentist. Now [01:46:25] she loves being a dentist. Yeah, the first day I met her, she said, just one thing you need to know about me. I’m [01:46:30] not going to retire from dentistry till I physically have to. She’s [01:46:35] like, I love it. I’m like, that’s cool. So that’s why I was so excited also to do this for Katie. But I want [01:46:40] to make her life a dream. You know? I don’t want it to be stressful. I want the [01:46:45] clinic to run smoothly. We need lots of systems. We need to review them. We need [01:46:50] to keep communication open. We need to keep training at a high level. We’re just going to work every day and burying [01:46:55] our head in the sand. And as you say, as a clinic owner, you’ve got a manager that’s like a dragon [01:47:00] locked in an office, which they before I was a practice manager, the only types of managers I ever knew. [01:47:05] Why? I didn’t want to be one. Ash had to talk to me many times about being his manager. [01:47:10] And you’ve got, you know, patients that are complaining, receptions, squeezing patients [01:47:15] in left, right and centre patients, just being genuinely difficult [01:47:20] coming into you. They don’t like you not appreciating what you do because they don’t understand your skill set. [01:47:25] And you’ve got a nurse slamming cupboards like, no thanks.

Laura Horton: I [01:47:30] mean.

Payman Langroudi: I just got a bit of PTSD when you said.

Laura Horton: You know what I mean?

Laura Horton: I know lots of [01:47:35] dentists that have given up clinical dentistry and they say, oh, I just I love the [01:47:40] business side. Laura. Yeah. You tell your team that I know the reality. It’s not just that you love [01:47:45] the business side. It’s extremely stressful and it was too much. And, you know, if you [01:47:50] end up giving up clinically like you have and that’s just the way it is, you know, you’ve got to [01:47:55] do what’s right. I think there’s a lot of pressure as well isn’t there. Oh, I’m a dentist.

Laura Horton: Yeah. It’s hard.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:48:00] I don’t want to not do that anymore. I think there should be maybe more dentists who like yourself [01:48:05] speak out about this like it’s okay.

Payman Langroudi: It’s hard to stop. You think you know nothing [01:48:10] else and you know nothing.

Laura Horton: Else, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And you realise what else? You know, like when you start looking [01:48:15] into other stuff. Yeah. Developing.

Laura Horton: Right. You’ve got loads.

Laura Horton: Of skills across over, you know.

Laura Horton: It’s hard [01:48:20] to.

Payman Langroudi: Persuade a dentist of.

Laura Horton: That though. You know, you can.

Laura Horton: Imagine, look, you know, probably the majority of senior [01:48:25] schools being geared up, if definitely not the last couple of years. Your A levels geared up to being a dentist, five years [01:48:30] plus your vocational training year or whatever else you do in hospital. That’s just starting, isn’t [01:48:35] it? You’re what, 2223? Immerse in the whole of your 20s into it. It’s [01:48:40] no wonder it’s overwhelming by the time you’re 32, because now you’re feeling the social pressure of where’s [01:48:45] your wife or husband and your kid and your porch?

Laura Horton: And why social media? [01:48:50] Social media?

Payman Langroudi: I’ll tell you one thing I’ve noticed the quality of dentistry has gone up so much [01:48:55] recently, especially with the young ones. Man, I see some of these young ones where they’re like [01:49:00] just qualified and like six months in, they’re doing things. I wasn’t doing five [01:49:05] years in, like as far as I mean, it’s it’s things come standard, right? Yeah. Rubber [01:49:10] dam and all that. We used to only bring it up for endo if that.

Laura Horton: If your nurse [01:49:15] got it out. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Come on. It’s a it’s a moolah. Come on.

Payman Langroudi: Photography. You know [01:49:20] the the I watched that happen now and I think [01:49:25] wow. Worst case scenario if I had to go back to be a dentist, I’d have to go on a bunch of courses on, [01:49:30] like, you know, rubber dam and stuff.

Laura Horton: But do.

Laura Horton: You feel because I definitely think there’s a [01:49:35] pattern now that the younger dentists are perhaps being interviewed differently, you [01:49:40] know, in regards to getting their place in dental.

Laura Horton: School, they’re.

Payman Langroudi: They’re more sort of academic [01:49:45] because it’s harder to get in.

Laura Horton: I know it’s weird because.

Payman Langroudi: Dentistry isn’t an academic subject. You know. [01:49:50]

Laura Horton: I know they’re.

Laura Horton: More academic, but I would definitely say my experience, particularly over the last three years with newly qualified [01:49:55] dentists in practices, is they’re not doing like their foundation year. They’ve maybe like 1 or [01:50:00] 2 years in. They have got the soft skills. Yeah. And they’re very good at managing patients. [01:50:05]

Laura Horton: They’re kinder than us. Yeah. That’s what is it.

Laura Horton: Just younger people these days are just kind.

Laura Horton: It’s [01:50:10] the.

Payman Langroudi: Flip side of that woke.

Laura Horton: Stuff. Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The woke stuff. The I don’t [01:50:15] know for me the ugly side of it. Yeah. The you know, whatever we we’ve discussed that [01:50:20] a million times with Rowena. But the flip side of that, yeah, is that people are kinder. Yes. [01:50:25]

Laura Horton: You know, which is good.

Payman Langroudi: We used to we used to be in, in our day. I’m sorry to put you in the same bracket [01:50:30] as me because you’re younger than me. Yeah, but in our in our day, there’d be a certain pleasure in [01:50:35] in pain. Yeah. You know, in, in singling someone out or laughing at people [01:50:40] awful. You know, and then and then we went on to, you know, now would be called racism, [01:50:45] right? Yeah. But back then you say, oh, the Indian guy said this or Italian, mind your language if you remember [01:50:50] that show.

Laura Horton: Yes I do, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But this now, now [01:50:55] I find my kids, their friends super kind. Yeah, super kinder than the [01:51:00] kids when I was their age.

Laura Horton: Kindness is everything.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it.

Laura Horton: Really is, isn’t it? You [01:51:05] know, that’s I. Do you ever watch First Dates? The show? You know where they go [01:51:10] on dates. Oh, it’s really sweet. And I make my husband watch it, and [01:51:15] he’s like, oh. And I say, but the thing is, I love, love.

Laura Horton: And.

Laura Horton: And then I [01:51:20] sit there and I’m like, oh, this person, they’re so kind. I hope they continue dating. They’re so kind. [01:51:25] And I say to him, you know, if anything ever happened to you, my next husband, [01:51:30] he the only thing I’d want is kindness. And he’s [01:51:35] like, does he take that?

Laura Horton: Not very well.

Laura Horton: He’s like, what? Am I not kind? No you’re not. Actually not all [01:51:40] the time. You’re not. Because that’s how we were brought up at schools. Schools. Horrible. [01:51:45] It was. You’re out for your own. Yeah. I’m hoping that’s not the way I don’t know. Is it [01:51:50] the same way in your daughter? She’s in senior school. I’m hoping that will changes somewhat, [01:51:55] but, yeah, we are raising a generation of children that are nicer, and now they’re coming through as [01:52:00] 20 year olds.

Payman Langroudi: Like girls.

Payman Langroudi: Girls a bit nastier than boys.

Laura Horton: Girls are a bit difficult.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. From my.

Payman Langroudi: Experience. [01:52:05]

Laura Horton: I’ve got a stepdaughter. She’s 22, 23. Sorry. Yeah. They’re difficult. [01:52:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: She’s loving. She’s very kind. You know, she’s turned out to be a really kind girl. That’s [01:52:15] how I’d describe her.

Laura Horton: Yeah, she’s.

Laura Horton: Very sweet and she’s turned out very kind.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:52:20] got.

Payman Langroudi: A man. It’s like Rhona says her worst comments come from women on [01:52:25] online. And then some of them listen to my my daughter and her friends talking and it’s like. But [01:52:30] nonetheless, it’s like, you know, there are differences between men and women, right? And we talked [01:52:35] before. We talked about what what it’s like to be a woman. Right. And in a in a [01:52:40] dark alley. Right. Yeah. You know, um, so, you know, it is what it is.

Laura Horton: It [01:52:45] is what it is.

Laura Horton: But I think, you know, I had an awful time as a teenager. I mean, I [01:52:50] would say that throughout school and life, I’ve always gotten better with men. Maybe [01:52:55] that’s why. Because in dentistry, the there are more male dentists, weren’t there? It’s flipped [01:53:00] now. I think it’s fantastic. But I at primary school would always [01:53:05] be with the boys. I was a bit of a tomboy, and then through senior school and even [01:53:10] getting into sort of late teens, early 20s are all my friends were boys and [01:53:15] their girlfriends would hate me because I’d got better banter and [01:53:20] I had a better time. We’d have a laugh and we’d connect more. They were just my friends. That was [01:53:25] it. But their girlfriends would always hate me, and I’m sure [01:53:30] if social media was around then there would have been loads of comments and everything about [01:53:35] that. It’s just pure jealousy and over yourselves like. But yeah. [01:53:40]

Payman Langroudi: I understand.

Laura Horton: Women, women can be very difficult with each.

Payman Langroudi: Other. Competitive, right? Competitive, yeah.

Laura Horton: I would [01:53:45] say now like my greatest friends are it totally flipped. My greatest friends are [01:53:50] all women really five top friends? All women. Nice. Yeah. And I wouldn’t be without them.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [01:53:55] get to the final questions. Fantasy dinner party. [01:54:00] Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you.

Payman Langroudi: Have?

Laura Horton: I [01:54:05] really, um, [01:54:10] miss my granddad. He is alive. He’s got Alzheimer’s. Oh, yeah. [01:54:15] I don’t think if I went to see him now, he’d know who I was. Oh, he was 90 [01:54:20] last July.

Payman Langroudi: He’s close. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And I’m as much as we used to [01:54:25] hear his stories and go, oh, God, we’ve heard that one so many times now.

Payman Langroudi: You miss them? [01:54:30]

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah. And every now and then, he’d pull one out of the bag that we hadn’t heard. My parents would [01:54:35] always be like.

Payman Langroudi: Your mum’s dad.

Laura Horton: My mum’s dad. Yeah. And my nan. Um, she died a few [01:54:40] years ago. She would just be like, oh, Mick, you know, and, uh, it’s quite. Yes. I [01:54:45] really miss his. Yeah. His stories. Um, and he just used to make us laugh [01:54:50] so much. Such a character. Brilliant, brilliant guy. And it’s so sad that all that’s gone. [01:54:55] Yeah. Um, he’s in a nursing home now. Yeah. And it was sad [01:55:00] when he turned 90 last year because she thought, well, okay. Yeah, he’s made it to 90.

Payman Langroudi: Was the first.

Payman Langroudi: Time you had an inkling? [01:55:05]

Laura Horton: Um, my grandad started to deteriorate. Probably [01:55:10] in the last couple of years of my nan’s life. My nan would moan about him. Okay. Um, yes. Oh, [01:55:15] he’s getting on my nerves. Like he’s asking me this and asking me that, but I think everyone was just sort of like, um. Then my [01:55:20] nan passed away and then it was it was sort of after that that he really [01:55:25] started going downhill. Um, and then there was an incident where it was actually [01:55:30] a heat wave. And I don’t know how this happened, but he was a few miles from home. He was living [01:55:35] on his own, but his friends from all his life, Ethel and role. Ethel just happened [01:55:40] to open the curtains one morning and said, oh, what’s Mick doing out there [01:55:45] in a great big winter coat? 8 a.m. it was already like 30 degrees. [01:55:50] And it was just coincidence that Ethel opened her curtains, because we don’t [01:55:55] know what could have happened to him that day. And roll went and got him and took him home. And that was right. Okay. He needs to go. So firstly, [01:56:00] he went into a care home, but it’s deteriorated into a nursing home now. So yeah, Mrs. [01:56:05] Story’s always had a laugh at my grandad and he liked to drink as well. And we both [01:56:10] have an equal love of roast potatoes. Um.

Payman Langroudi: So your granddad. [01:56:15]

Laura Horton: Yeah, definitely my grandad.

Laura Horton: And then my aunt, who unfortunately passed away a few years ago. Who’s the most [01:56:20] funniest woman? She is my mum’s sister, so she’s like my grandad. I miss her [01:56:25] every day and think about her every day. She’s absolutely well, was absolutely awesome. And [01:56:30] then I think we’d need to mix it up a little bit. We’d need.

Payman Langroudi: Nelson Mandela.

Laura Horton: Not [01:56:35] want to go political. We couldn’t get my granddad on anything [01:56:40] political because he’d be off on one. Yeah. You know, he was he’d be a through and through and all [01:56:45] this, you know. So we’d have to mix it up a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Are you Labour left [01:56:50] wing.

Laura Horton: I’m, I’m not a Labour voter.

Payman Langroudi: No a conservative.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:56:55] Really. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: So far these things tend to run in families though. But go [01:57:00] ahead.

Laura Horton: Yeah. You know what.

Laura Horton: Just speaking on that very quickly. My mum and dad will not discuss who they vote [01:57:05] for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I like that too.

Payman Langroudi: I like I kind of like.

Laura Horton: My sisters are like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, I kind of like [01:57:10] that. Yeah.

Laura Horton: My mum and dad are like, we’re not discussing it.

Laura Horton: It’s private. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Secret about it.

Laura Horton: We’re like, it’s weird. [01:57:15]

Laura Horton: Um, anyway, so yeah, we need to mix it up a bit. I can’t think who it would be, but we need someone [01:57:20] to bring the party to the table. I would say Payman. Yeah. Don’t want to be having a serious [01:57:25] conversation. We’d need someone really fun to bring. Bring the party [01:57:30] to the table.

Laura Horton: Who’s wild?

Payman Langroudi: Who’s fun and wild?

Laura Horton: That’s wild.

Laura Horton: I don’t really know too much [01:57:35] about them, but I’d imagine someone like Mick Jagger, he’d be pretty wild.

Payman Langroudi: I see, I see he’d be.

Laura Horton: Quite wild.

Laura Horton: Wouldn’t he? [01:57:40] I love that, you know.

Laura Horton: I don’t want any drugs there because, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Mick Jagger.

Payman Langroudi: Your granddad. You’re right. It’s [01:57:45] a beautiful.

Laura Horton: Combination. Wow. Someone’s going to turn up, like, let’s get this entertainment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:57:50] Someone who’s just absolutely bringing the energy, bringing the laughs like.

Payman Langroudi: He’s [01:57:55] someone you want to talk to. Like, who would that be?

Laura Horton: Oh, do you know, I know you’ve just said Nelson [01:58:00] Mandela. It’s a bit of a cliche, but gosh, what a man. Yeah, what a man. [01:58:05] And I mentioned him earlier in that five levels.

Laura Horton: You know.

Laura Horton: I remember not [01:58:10] knowing too much about him actually growing up. And then I remember reading that great big book [01:58:15] and have you read it or seen it? It is literally like this. And the writing’s [01:58:20] tiny. I just fired through it. I was like, I can’t believe it, I can’t believe it. And I remember saying to [01:58:25] like, my mum, oh, Nelson Mandela, this Nelson Mandela, she’s like, yes.

Laura Horton: Yes, yes.

Laura Horton: Yes. And I’m like, [01:58:30] but why didn’t you tell us all these things? Yeah. Like I think probably trying to shield us from the awful [01:58:35] world and the awful things. But yeah, what a guy. I think there’d be many lessons [01:58:40] in leadership, mental toughness and attitude [01:58:45] and flipping your mindset, I’m really into all of that. Um, or I know I’m [01:58:50] going through them right now. Anthony Robbins yeah.

Laura Horton: Like.

Laura Horton: He’d be so cool [01:58:55] to have there as well, just to be like, I don’t know, but I think I’d want it to be fun. [01:59:00]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, well, Anthony Robbins is a quite fun guy as well.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah, I reckon.

Payman Langroudi: I had, I had an Anthony Robbins CD [01:59:05] stuck in my. It was one of those. It was what you remember [01:59:10] back in the day, the five CD Multi-chain.

Laura Horton: Oh yeah, living the dream.

Payman Langroudi: Those five CDs were the only [01:59:15] ones that I could ever listen to. And one of them was Nancy Robbins. Yeah, and I must have listened to that one [01:59:20] like, a hundred times. The interesting thing is, the only one I remember, like, of all, it was like a 20 [01:59:25] CD.

Laura Horton: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like a compilation.

Laura Horton: All online now.

Laura Horton: Isn’t [01:59:30] it? Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All right, let’s get to the final. Final?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Go for it.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a weird one. [01:59:35] Deathbed.

Laura Horton: Oh, God.

Payman Langroudi: On your deathbed, surrounded by [01:59:40] your friends and family. Mhm. What are three pieces of advice you’d [01:59:45] leave for them?

Laura Horton: Be kind. Always be kind. Be [01:59:50] honest. Always be honest I think. Even if you’re going [01:59:55] to upset others. Being honest at all times is really important, particularly [02:00:00] in relationships and about how you feel. I think people just sit [02:00:05] quiet and don’t say anything, and it always ends up being a detriment to yourself. Always [02:00:10] be honest. Always be honest, I think.

Payman Langroudi: Funny one, I know, but.

Laura Horton: I [02:00:15] can’t help it. Payman, I just, I just.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but if you.

Payman Langroudi: Were 100% honest, right, right now, you’d [02:00:20] say something inappropriate to me. You know, let’s imagine the only [02:00:25] joking.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a funny, honest. It’s a funny one because it’s like, honest. From what [02:00:30] perspective? But I like it, I like it. Come on.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I think just be just be open as [02:00:35] well. Don’t don’t mince your words. Just say what you think I say. [02:00:40] Same as being honest. But be true to yourself. In that sense, don’t [02:00:45] go along with something just because everyone else is. I’ve done that. We’ve probably all done that. I know, and you know, [02:00:50] when you’re older not to do it. Yeah. And, you know, in that sense, I guess what I’m trying to say is [02:00:55] follow your gut and follow your gut instinct. And if your gut instinct is telling you something that’s not right, [02:01:00] then just don’t do it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: I guess that’s what I mean about.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [02:01:05] that’s good advice.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Thank you. I’ve really.

Payman Langroudi: Enjoyed it. [02:01:10]

Laura Horton: Thank you very much.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know how long we’ve been going.

Laura Horton: No, no. Do I know?

Payman Langroudi: It’s just. Um. [02:01:15] Really lovely. I know we had a few, um, times. We arranged it, and I.

Laura Horton: Finally. [02:01:20]

Laura Horton: Got there, didn’t we?

Payman Langroudi: Finally got there? Yeah. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: So massive luck with the new practice.

Laura Horton: Thank you so much. [02:01:25]

Payman Langroudi: I’m sure the other business is going to go from strength to strength. Really lovely to have you. Real enigma.

Laura Horton: Well, thank [02:01:30] you very much. Thank you very.

Laura Horton: Much for your time.

Laura Horton: Pleasure. Cheers. Bye.

Intro Voice: This [02:01:35] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one [02:01:40] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [02:01:45] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Prav Solanki: Thanks [02:01:50] for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. [02:01:55] And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve [02:02:00] had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. [02:02:05]

Payman Langroudi: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would [02:02:10] share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. [02:02:15] Thanks.

Prav Solanki: And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

Speaker1: I just didn’t want to go out in the house. I didn’t want to engage. Started thinking, oh, no one likes me, but I [00:00:05] wasn’t phoning them, you know? So your behaviours changes. And I started to [00:00:10] make excuses. Oh, I can’t go out because of this or I can’t go out because of that. And at that point I [00:00:15] was like, something’s happening. I need to I need to sort myself out. I’ve clearly come to the end of [00:00:20] a carriage in this train, and if I want to go to the next one, I need to address myself.

Speaker2: This [00:00:25] is mind movers moving [00:00:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental [00:00:35] professionals. Your hosts Rhona Eskander [00:00:40] and Payman Langroudi. Hi everyone. Welcome to [00:00:45] another episode of Mind Movers. We’re in season two and we’re really excited about the guests coming on today. [00:00:50] Today we have an amazing guest, Paul. Paul Sculfor how I say it right then. [00:00:55]

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. You find the first time.

Speaker2: Okay, fine. Paul and I have known each other. In fact, we didn’t, [00:01:00] you know, spend a lot of time together growing up. But I almost have known you for, like, ten years [00:01:05] because I met through your partner, who’s an incredible woman who is working for an incredible [00:01:10] brand and doing amazing things. And Paul and I got on really well, and I, you know what? One of the conversations [00:01:15] we had, I don’t know if you remember this is about sobriety. So I had told you that I was teetotal and I’d [00:01:20] been teetotal my whole life, and you were also teetotal. So that’s what struck up the conversation. Obviously, it’s [00:01:25] very interesting. Fast forward ten years. I think that you saw that I did a podcast with Arter. [00:01:30]

Speaker1: I did the lovely Arter.

Speaker2: Yeah. You remember Arter. Yeah. So [00:01:35] through that, um, you know, Arthur connected us and obviously I’ve been [00:01:40] following your journey Paul back in the day on Facebook, may I add not just not not just Instagram. [00:01:45] And I’ve obviously noticed, you know, the changes that you’ve made in your life, what you’re doing. [00:01:50] I knew you when you were a model. And then what’s your what’s your transition more into kind of the wellness space? I hate [00:01:55] using the word wellness, but you know what I mean. You know, the space that benefits our mind and our [00:02:00] body better. You know, that’s the way that I like to put it. So welcome, Paul. So lovely to have you very much.

Speaker1: Thank you. Thanks [00:02:05] for coming. Nice to be.

Speaker2: Here. So first of all, I always like to start from the beginning and [00:02:10] you know where it all started. I know about your past, you know, what you were doing before modelling, etc. but do [00:02:15] you want to tell us a little bit about where you came from and how you ended up, you know, where you were [00:02:20] just before, what you’re doing now? Because that’s the future. But you know a little bit about your past growing up.

Speaker1: Cool. [00:02:25] How long have you got? It’s been a while.

Speaker2: Tell us the juicy parts. Hahaha.

Speaker1: There’s [00:02:30] a lot of them too. Um, I am a rare Londoner. Um, born and bred. [00:02:35] Um, I was born in a hospital in [00:02:40] Dagenham, but brought up in Upminster. And if you don’t know, Upminster is a last borough east. [00:02:45] It’s a really lovely little Victorian town golf course, tennis clubs, [00:02:50] lovely. It’s like a little commuter commuter town. Um, and that’s where [00:02:55] I went to school and was brought up there.

Speaker2: Amazing. And then what happened?

Speaker1: Well, [00:03:00] how. It depends how much you want to know. Um, I went to I went to [00:03:05] school there and, um, which was nice. It was a good school, but I had quite [00:03:10] a. An interesting upbringing in the sense that my father [00:03:15] wasn’t around a lot because he was working, so I was brought up most with my mum [00:03:20] and her friends, um, and had a difficult [00:03:25] time sometimes with my with my dad. Um, so as [00:03:30] I, as I was, um, sorry, as a young guy, I was quite, [00:03:35] quite an anxious child. Um, uh, quite a self-conscious child. And [00:03:40] I used to spend a lot of time. We actually lived in the last house, um, in [00:03:45] London before you went to the fields and the woods that broke out into into [00:03:50] Essex. So I spent a lot of time there, and but I was fascinated with [00:03:55] sports cars and motorbikes.

Speaker2: Classic [00:04:00] boy, classic boy.

Speaker1: And I spent a lot of my time designing cars and motorbikes [00:04:05] when I was a kid. Um, and I was of the generation back then where we were the first kids [00:04:10] with BMX. So for our backpacks on and just ride off for hours and, um, [00:04:15] so I spent a lot of time outdoors. I spent a lot of time moving and being [00:04:20] physical. Um, I became a gymnast, which I [00:04:25] loved. I loved it because I liked the feeling of flying and [00:04:30] moving and, um, I would probably have been diagnosed [00:04:35] with ADHD now because one of the kids who couldn’t sit still and, uh, so [00:04:40] I became a gymnast, um, very successful, became a trampolinist, which [00:04:45] I was very successful at. I became a footballer, which I was horrendous at, um, [00:04:50] played in defence, played football. So I think I had a in my mind [00:04:55] at the time, a very normal upbringing. Yeah.

Speaker2: Amazing. So [00:05:00] you don’t think your past necessarily impacted you in a certain way? Childhood? [00:05:05]

Speaker1: It depends what certain way you mean.

Speaker2: Well, you said your father [00:05:10] wasn’t around, so what do you feel your relationships were like then after that? Well. [00:05:15]

Speaker1: The environment I was brought up in, there was a lot of the members, [00:05:20] a lot of drinking. Um, I come from a family of boxers. Um, [00:05:25] my dad’s side were dockers, so it’s a very manly environment. [00:05:30] And, um, I was quite sensitive as a kid, and I found [00:05:35] that quite abrupt. Um, but I learned to live and put that armour on and [00:05:40] be in that environment. Um, but when I, when I [00:05:45] started to box, I first went. My father’s cousin had a boxing club. Two [00:05:50] of them actually had boxing clubs. And, um, I went there when I was 12 and [00:05:55] he basically said, would you like to have a fight? And I said, sure. Yeah. Just not having no idea, [00:06:00] thinking I’ll. I’ll show my dad that I’m okay and just got my ass whipped around the ring [00:06:05] and couldn’t work out how this guy was so nimble on [00:06:10] his feet and could move around so well. Um, because before then, I thought boxing [00:06:15] was an aggressive sport and you had to be, like, really angry. And it’s completely [00:06:20] the opposite. It’s an art form. So after that humbling experience, I asked [00:06:25] my dad if I could box, and he took me to a local boxing club. Um, they’re always in pretty rundown [00:06:30] areas. We went to Dagenham. Um, and I started to box and I [00:06:35] loved it.

Speaker1: I really, really loved it because I realised that, um, when you [00:06:40] become good at something like that, you don’t. It takes away a lot of [00:06:45] your fear. You don’t have to prove anything. But before, I was quite fearful of [00:06:50] angry people and loud voices and stuff because my dad was very loud and had a wonderful temper. [00:06:55] Um, when he used to come in, the dog used to run out of the house. So you knew that, uh, you [00:07:00] know, probably a good time to leave. Um, but I’d like to say that I have [00:07:05] a good relationship with. My dad is a good man. He just had a very hard upbringing and didn’t have the toolkit. [00:07:10] So I found, um, I found it tough early on because I really wanted to [00:07:15] be my dad’s friend and please him when he was around, so I probably [00:07:20] worked a lot in that area. How’s that affected me? Later on in life? I realise you don’t have to do that. [00:07:25] Um, I realised that all the judgement I had on my father, [00:07:30] all I had to do was look at his upbringing. And actually from where he came [00:07:35] from, he’s. He grew tremendously well, but was still probably outdated [00:07:40] for the time when I was born. You know, I.

Speaker2: Think it’s interesting because, you know, I always [00:07:45] ask this question about the past and I do. I [00:07:50] have a therapist. We literally had my therapist on the podcast, and I’m very interested on how your [00:07:55] past shapes who you are. And obviously, as you know, there’s two groups of people, right? [00:08:00] The people that end up being just like their parents and the people that end up being completely opposite to their parents. [00:08:05] And like you said, you know, the older generation, our parents, they don’t [00:08:10] really have they didn’t have the toolkit, you know, like my parents grew up in the Middle East [00:08:15] and, you know, they’re like on survival mode, like country might go into war. Like we don’t have time to be [00:08:20] depressed, you know? And that was the mentality that I grew up with. And I think that understanding [00:08:25] mental health for my parents was more like, if you’ve got depression or anxiety, there’s [00:08:30] an imbalance in your hormones. They didn’t really understand that actually your environment has a huge [00:08:35] impact or your past, etc. but also what I’m finding really interesting [00:08:40] when I hear you speak is about the boxing. And, you know, Payman and I have spoken to [00:08:45] a lot of people in the sports space, particularly men, and recognise how healthy it is to [00:08:50] have a sport. And like you said, stereotypically people like boxing is a really aggressive sport. I even think that, [00:08:55] you know, you see people being beaten up. But I’ve spoken to some boxers and they say actually that [00:09:00] release, you know, that release of energy and emotions in the ring makes [00:09:05] you a much safer and composed person in real life with your emotions. Like, I have a friend, he boxes [00:09:10] every morning first thing when he gets up and he’s like, I have that gun. And he’s like, as a man. He’s like, I [00:09:15] feel that’s actually really important. And he goes. And then later on in the day he goes. I really find it easy to [00:09:20] control my temper as a result of that habit that I’ve formed every day. You know.

Speaker1: I [00:09:25] think I think there’s a difference between boxing training, which is very, very healthy because it helps you [00:09:30] obviously with eye hand coordination, you work every part of your body if you do [00:09:35] it properly and it’s physically tough, but it gives you an appreciation for things. [00:09:40] And, um, the discipline is really nice. And I think when you’re, when you’re in the ring with somebody [00:09:45] and it’s just you and them, it doesn’t matter what goes on on the [00:09:50] outside. Yeah. Um, I remember having a fight if you, if you’re an amateur. Um, [00:09:55] the British Championships are usually held in York Hall in East London. Um, and, [00:10:00] um, I remember having my first fight for the British Championships. I was 15, I [00:10:05] only had seven fights. I won seven, um, but I was fighting a guy from a club, [00:10:10] West Ham club called Repton Park. Which is the best? Repton. Which is the best for guys, really? [00:10:15] Or one of the best. And I was in a small club out in, um, at that time a place called Howard Wood. [00:10:20] Yeah. And um, there was no one else for me to fight because I’d fought everybody. Um, [00:10:25] so they put me straight in for the championships. And, uh, I remember [00:10:30] my old trainer, Roy. He was great. He was like the old guy from Rocky. He’s like, okay, kid, you know, you sit [00:10:35] there, you’re knocking out boxing, but you can beat him.

Speaker1: I know you can. And, uh, it [00:10:40] was interesting. So I fought the guy who was currently the British championship champion, [00:10:45] and he had, I think, 60 something like 64 fights on his belt and won most of them. [00:10:50] And it was really interesting because he was right. The guy outskilled [00:10:55] me, but I hurt him so much that he couldn’t go on [00:11:00] to fight that night. So the idea was that whoever won that you fought again in the evening and then you won the championship. [00:11:05] Um, and he because he was from a big club, [00:11:10] a popular club, he won. But there was an uproar because it was basically I beat beat [00:11:15] the guy and then he had to he couldn’t box for a while because he got really hurt. But then I understood [00:11:20] the industry then because I didn’t win either, because it was this guy’s, you know, had to had to win [00:11:25] at the point. And, um, so I gave up for a while. Yeah, because [00:11:30] I didn’t like the business around it. But as a, as a person, it really was interesting because [00:11:35] on paper, I shouldn’t have been able to win. Yeah. Um, and it was a really nice [00:11:40] battle, I guess, as a young kid that had a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear about things, [00:11:45] to know that I could stand on my own two feet. Yeah, yeah. So, Paul.

Speaker3: Would you say there’s a I [00:11:50] mean, looking at your story becoming one of the world’s top male models? [00:11:55] Yeah.

Speaker2: We want to talk about.

Speaker3: That disconnect between that and the self self-conscious child. So [00:12:00] was boxing the. Yes. Tell us how the modelling started.

Speaker1: The modelling started. [00:12:05] Um, my mother sent off a photograph to a competition which I didn’t know [00:12:10] about. Um, this was in 1991. [00:12:15] I’d been approached prior at the King’s Road. I used to go shopping down there when I was 20, and, [00:12:20] uh, this lady had come up to me and said, oh, you should be a model. And I was like, yeah, sure, whatever. Yeah, just carry [00:12:25] on. Um. And she insisted. She’s like, look, I’m a photographer. Can I take some photos? And I said, sure, [00:12:30] why not? And she literally had a camera. So we took some pictures and, um, she gave me [00:12:35] her phone number, swap phone numbers, and I went back and saw them. It was actually pretty cool. And she took [00:12:40] me into a model agency called So Damn Tough at the time, which was like a kind of [00:12:45] working man sort of place. And, um, and it was all the rugged guys like boxers [00:12:50] and whatever, and, um, they wouldn’t take me on. And then she took me [00:12:55] to models one, where Davina McCall was the head booker at the time, and, [00:13:00] uh, I didn’t have great skin. So she said, well, we’re waiting to see for a little while. [00:13:05] And then he phoned me a month later and said, no, it’s not, it’s not worth you coming in.

Speaker1: So [00:13:10] that was my first experience of model agencies. Then. Um, my [00:13:15] mum sent off this competition and it had you can win a holiday and you get a wardrobe [00:13:20] of clothes. So I thought, that’s perfect, I’ll do that. And I was in hospital at the time having my appendix [00:13:25] out. So as soon as the end of the week came, I just went to this thing. I still had stitches in and [00:13:30] it was at limelight. Penny Lancaster, Rod Stewart’s wife, come third [00:13:35] and, uh, and I won. I couldn’t believe it. There’s all these really handsome, chiselled guys [00:13:40] in there that really looked the business. And I just went in a pair of black jeans and a [00:13:45] white t shirt. I had no idea what it was about. And there was a boxer called Gary Stretch, [00:13:50] who used to be a model. And, um, he was on the thing and we started talking and [00:13:55] basically like, you should win this. You’re a good kid. Anyway, I won it. And, [00:14:00] um, they kept phoning me for a month saying, do you want to do you want to start working? [00:14:05] Do you want to come in?

Speaker2: And we were builder at the time.

Speaker1: So I was never really a builder. [00:14:10] How that come around? I did do construction. I did, um, double [00:14:15] glazing and suspended ceilings. Um, but how that come around is at the time [00:14:20] I wasn’t doing anything. I was probably being a bit of a naughty boy. And they said, what do you do? And I said, oh, I’m [00:14:25] a builder. Yeah, that’s what I do. So first thing I thought of and it just stuck, basically because they [00:14:30] put that in the papers and um, I finally went up there [00:14:35] and went for a casting, which I had no idea about and got the [00:14:40] job. And that was my first introduction. It was it was very, very foreign to me. [00:14:45] I had no idea what I was doing, but I had a wonderful agent, um, called Tandy, and [00:14:50] she’s like a pit bull. And she’s like, right, kid? What you’re [00:14:55] wearing, you need to change. She took me shopping. She said, this is what you’re wearing now. This is your [00:15:00] new style, and this is how you have to be when you turn up on the job. Um, so that was the first.

Speaker3: How [00:15:05] long did it take from that to catwalks and model shoots?

Speaker1: And [00:15:10] it was a very short period of time, I think. I think probably [00:15:15] it took me about two months to get my first job, which was a magazine. Um, [00:15:20] and then I remember getting a Speedo job for trunks up in Manchester. [00:15:25] And then after that I did a thing called The Clothes Show Life. So [00:15:30] funny enough, Warren Warren. Now, is it Warren Avenue? Where are you from? Warwick? Warwick Avenue. Um, [00:15:35] someone used to have a house there that used to cast him from. And she would do [00:15:40] the shows. So I went to this casting. She said, can you can you dance? I was like, yeah, of course [00:15:45] I can dance. She goes, okay, we’re doing a clothes show live. I’m like, yeah, fine, whatever. And when I got there, I didn’t realise [00:15:50] it was choreography because I’ve been a gymnast and trampolines, I could move, so I [00:15:55] basically blagged the job. And then the next thing we’re doing eight shows a day up in Manchester or wherever it was and, [00:16:00] uh, learning how to dance with the other guys and stuff. And it was good.

Speaker2: Question [00:16:05] for you, though, because I hear this, um, do you think that you [00:16:10] just fell into it with modelling, or do you feel that subconsciously I hate using [00:16:15] the word, but everyone loves it. So buzzword manifest, did you feel that you subconsciously manifested? And [00:16:20] obviously manifesting is thinking about something that you really want and then, you know, it [00:16:25] kind of comes your way when there’s preparation and opportunity, and I guess we can call that luck. [00:16:30] Or do you genuinely feel like these opportunities just came your way and you thought, oh, actually, [00:16:35] mine must be quite good looking. You know, a lot of people are asking me to do this, you know. What do you think?

Speaker1: It was [00:16:40] two points to that, I think. I never thought about [00:16:45] it before I met. I saw one guy once on Davies Street [00:16:50] in Mayfair who looked like a model, thought, wow, he looks impressive. He looks really cool. And and my [00:16:55] mum used to get a catalogue and there was one guy in the catalogue in the motorbike section that always [00:17:00] used to wear the leather leather gear, and he looked really cool and his name was Zayn MacDonald and I did my [00:17:05] second job with him, which was bizarre. But when I started, um, [00:17:10] I would say that I manifested it in the sense that [00:17:15] I really wanted to do well, and I really wanted [00:17:20] to do well was because my upbringing, we didn’t do much. It was I felt quite bored with it. It was [00:17:25] very local, in a small, small kind of London mentality. So [00:17:30] as soon as I started to work abroad and meet different people from different places, it blew my mind and I [00:17:35] was so hungry just to have the knowledge of life that yeah, I would, [00:17:40] I would. I basically travelled for eight years and stayed no [00:17:45] more than like two months in one country. So I’d be in Paris knocking on doors. [00:17:50]

Speaker1: And back then you would literally physically go to see a client knock [00:17:55] on the door, give me your book, have a chat, leave and go and see another one. It [00:18:00] was such a busy business, you would literally go and see 8 or 9 clients a day. So I’d see 8 or [00:18:05] 9 clients a day in Paris, and then the jobs you would have a month or two [00:18:10] months full of jobs happened, or a couple of weeks. So I’d seen everybody. So I’d say to my agent, right, [00:18:15] I’m going to Milan, I’ll do the same there, and I’d work. And then from there I’d go [00:18:20] to Athens, or I’d go back to London, or I’d fly to New York. So I constantly drove [00:18:25] the business myself as much as possible, so I wouldn’t just sit there and think, [00:18:30] well, nothing’s going on this week. I’ll just hang out. I’d phone up and say, where’s [00:18:35] busy? What’s the market doing over there or over there? So sure, I manifest it in the sense [00:18:40] that I wanted to do it, but I put the work in. I don’t think [00:18:45] that you can sit in your house, desire something, and not do something about it, and it will happen.

Speaker2: You [00:18:50] know what? And I also think there’s something to be said about self-belief as well. I was listening to a manifesting [00:18:55] podcast the other day because I’m going through a transition stage myself, and [00:19:00] someone said that you could say, like, you think you really want something, but there’s also [00:19:05] a part of you that thinks you don’t deserve it and you actually prevent yourself from getting it. And I thought [00:19:10] that was a really interesting point as well. I’m not saying you should be self-congratulatory and say like, I’m [00:19:15] the most amazing person in the world, but it’s also having that innate belief, which is really hard, that I deserve [00:19:20] to do well because I’m willing to put in the work and I’m willing for good things to come my way. And I think [00:19:25] that that’s a really important part of it as well.

Speaker1: I think there’s another part to that. Yeah. I [00:19:30] think, you know, some people believe that they desire something, but they actually [00:19:35] really don’t because they think they either have to have it or they think [00:19:40] that that they would be appreciated if they have it. Um, so I think there’s another element [00:19:45] to that. Yeah. So I really wanted to be an actor at one point. Um, and [00:19:50] I studied for three years, Myers and Technique and I went into the industry, and it was [00:19:55] mostly because people were saying, oh, you’re great. You’ve done so well, you’ve done so many TV commercials [00:20:00] and worked a lot of directors. You should do TV and film. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, maybe I should do this. [00:20:05] And I lived in the States, like I said, and I went to castings and auditions [00:20:10] for movies. And then I realised it’s a completely different business [00:20:15] from modelling. And I had I was very fortunate because I’d done so well [00:20:20] in the modelling. I knew people I could just go straight to another agent, which I did. So I bridged across, [00:20:25] um, but it’s a different business. It’s completely and utterly a different business. So I [00:20:30] managed to do I actually sat there and I said, um, to [00:20:35] the universe, let me get three movies. To [00:20:40] see if I really like it and to see if I am a good [00:20:45] actor. I can do a job. And literally within this six months after I had had [00:20:50] three movies come up, which was bizarre, and I did them all, and [00:20:55] at the time I was going through a change, but I really was observing [00:21:00] what was going on, so it wasn’t when I started to model, I was just blindly doing it and really [00:21:05] pushing to to get the job where with acting, I was unsure if [00:21:10] I wanted to do it properly.

Speaker1: So I was watching how it worked and whole process [00:21:15] and enjoyed engaging and doing what I was doing in the movies. And I had the experience. Um, [00:21:20] and I remember we had the premiere in Madrid of this movie [00:21:25] I did called Didi Hollywood. And, uh, and it was amazing because we came [00:21:30] out and we being a film star for five minutes and we were signing autographs, we got a really good picture of [00:21:35] it down the thing, and I used to have a big market in Spain anyway for modelling, so I had quite a following [00:21:40] and it was just and it was just I kind of experienced it as like being a movie star for this [00:21:45] moment. I thought that was amazing. And I went back upstairs to my room in the hotel and just sat [00:21:50] and had a cup of tea, didn’t go to the after party and I was like, that was amazing. But I’m not sure if that’s what I want to do for [00:21:55] a living.

Speaker2: Interesting.

Speaker3: What about, um, going from the East End [00:22:00] boxing? Yes. To suddenly being this super successful model. [00:22:05] Did you have loads of sort of pinch yourself moments? Like what? What what comes what comes [00:22:10] to mind when I say, you know, amazing moments in that period?

Speaker1: Oh, there’s definitely [00:22:15] amazing moments. But I think putting all the effort in, it wasn’t like, I don’t [00:22:20] know, I’ve never won lottery. Someone winning the lottery. Oh that’s great, I’m rich now. Yeah. It wasn’t a switch [00:22:25] like that. I still had to learn what I was doing, but there was moments I remember [00:22:30] my first job in America was down in San Diego. I’d [00:22:35] never been to America before, and we were staying in this beautiful hotel, amazing production [00:22:40] team that took us all to the incredible locations. And [00:22:45] then I’m working next to some really cool California surfer dudes, and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. [00:22:50] That for me was was incredible. And then there’s been jobs. I worked with, [00:22:55] um, incredible photographer called Bruce Weber, and my first job with him [00:23:00] was the Banana Republic campaign. And, um, they were just trying to bring the [00:23:05] company up, and there were 60 models. We went down to Montauk, um, [00:23:10] in Long Island. It was beautiful. And in this $20 million [00:23:15] home, all winnebagos around, food everywhere, amazing [00:23:20] cars. And I was like, wow, this is just another level of life.

Speaker2: Having [00:23:25] said that, though, you’ve obviously, you know, there was a huge transition into your lifestyle. Did [00:23:30] your mental health ever plummet and did you ever use coping mechanisms? [00:23:35] We also know that the Hollywood lifestyle and the fame and the fortune, you know, comes with a dark [00:23:40] side, and there’s certainly a massive element of self-soothing, you know, where people escape, [00:23:45] you know, their own reality, even though it’s meant to be on the outside, like this perfect reality. So [00:23:50] was there a transition in your mental health at any point?

Speaker1: I [00:23:55] think I realised early on that there’s a show and the show is, you know, when [00:24:00] you see movies, all you see as a, as a normal person is the red carpet, the lights, the [00:24:05] stuff. And you don’t see that there’s been four years of work going into that. So [00:24:10] I think by that time I knew there was that side of it, but I didn’t realise how cut [00:24:15] throat it was. And for me, I used to come, I was very close to my mum. [00:24:20] So when I was modelling initially I used to fly back always to sit with her and see her and [00:24:25] I found that very grounding and reassuring because you can lose yourself very easy, you [00:24:30] know, if you’re away from your stable, whether it be a family or certain friends, you can definitely lose yourself. [00:24:35] Um, self-soothing. Self-soothing. I don’t know about that. I ended up drinking [00:24:40] a lot and partying a lot. Um, and I think that was trying to fill [00:24:45] a void, but I didn’t know what the void was for at the time. So I would work [00:24:50] incredibly hard and party just as hard. Yeah.

Speaker2: What [00:24:55] do you think the void was now in hindsight?

Speaker1: Probably [00:25:00] a misconnection with myself. Yeah. I think in, in, um, a [00:25:05] lot of times in life we’re taught or we see other people’s behaviours and we [00:25:10] marketed that if you have this handbag or if you have this car, if you live in, [00:25:15] if you live in London, and then when you’re in London, if you live in this area and if you’re in that area, it’s living in this street and [00:25:20] then it’s what building you live at and what apartment you live in that building. So it can go down to whatever. [00:25:25] And that’s endless because then it’s okay, I’ve got the apartment, but do I have the gaudy wallpaper? [00:25:30] Have I got, you know, whatever kitchen. And it’s just it’s never ending. So [00:25:35] for me, it was about, um, I studied tai [00:25:40] chi for five years when I lived in LA. Um, I learnt a lot about meditation. [00:25:45] I did lots of yoga. I did a lot of time on my own. So this is what. [00:25:50] This is how I learned to deal with stuff. Um, I [00:25:55] used to. I always loved girlfriends and having a lot of time with people. So I [00:26:00] started to get agitated. If I stayed in a hotel room on my own somewhere and I was like, what [00:26:05] is that agitation? Why am I agitated? I should be fine and I needed to be around [00:26:10] people. So what I did, which I wouldn’t recommend. I took a year off [00:26:15] dating, texting any girls, looking at any girls, and [00:26:20] if I did engage at work, I was very polite but [00:26:25] just short and was not going to engage in any flirting or anything like that. So for a year I [00:26:30] spent really kind of on my own. Yeah. Didn’t watch TV, watched some [00:26:35] movies, read books. And it was really interesting. And [00:26:40] from doing that, I realised that, um, I found myself [00:26:45] through the fear of doing what I didn’t want to do. I didn’t want to be on my own. So I thought, I [00:26:50] better be on my own. Yeah. So spending that time gives you the space to see [00:26:55] what the truth is.

Speaker2: Do you know, I think that people have such a fear of being alone [00:27:00] and being on their own. And I see it even with like people that I know in my immediate like friendship [00:27:05] group or people, and they’re like, they come out, they’re serial monogamists, as I would call it, or they always [00:27:10] have, like the next person lined up before they fully break up with another person and they [00:27:15] might preach like, oh, I want to be on my own. I have to spend time on my own. But it gives them such intense [00:27:20] anxiety and like, well, I can’t help it that this person has come along because it’s actually a really difficult thing because [00:27:25] it forces you like, I love spending time by myself. Like I’m happy to have the house to myself, [00:27:30] as you said, like put a cup of tea, read a book, etc. but I [00:27:35] also need to feel that there’s someone there. Like I really struggled to be on my own. [00:27:40] And I think it’s some it’s something that people don’t really talk about or are happy to admit to because as you said, [00:27:45] it’s really sitting with yourself. And now that we have our mobile phones and our devices, we’re never [00:27:50] truly alone, you know? Because even if you, for example, don’t go on dates or don’t flirt with people, you’ve [00:27:55] got access to dating apps or Instagram, or you can check out people that’s not being on your own.

Speaker1: There’s a [00:28:00] difference between being diverted from yourself and being distracted. Correct, to being on your own. [00:28:05] Yep. And I really recommend, um, I really recommend it [00:28:10] because we had it’s a blind fear. So you’re willing [00:28:15] as a person to date the wrong person, uh, for however long [00:28:20] in the wrong circumstances. So you’re putting yourself second and wondering [00:28:25] why you’re not happy, and wondering why you have to be distracted to pick up the phone or whatever because [00:28:30] you can’t see yourself. And if you sit with yourself, it’s you. [00:28:35] It doesn’t matter where you are, who you. If you’re still with yourself, you can be in a room. I [00:28:40] used to have a friend of mine who’s the best conversationalist. You’d go to any party, and he’s talking to everyone. And I [00:28:45] used to think, how does he do that? And and I thought, oh, [00:28:50] I’m actually, I thought I was shy as a kid. I realised I was self-conscious, [00:28:55] which is a difference. And what that means is if we’re sitting here and I’m thinking, [00:29:00] Payman doesn’t like my shirt, oh, God, I shouldn’t wear a shirt he likes. Oh my god, or, you know, [00:29:05] or whatever it may be. I am separating myself [00:29:10] from you guys by thought, even in the same room. So [00:29:15] I’m in here while you’re out there. Yeah. So. If [00:29:20] you if you’re self-conscious or you’re thinking like that, you are separate. Whether you’re in a [00:29:25] room with 100 people or no people. So if you get to know yourself, then you get to know your [00:29:30] thought process. Then you can do something about it and then you can join everyone in.

Speaker3: Would [00:29:35] you say, would you say, that’s the it’s a crazy question, right? The secret to happiness. [00:29:40] I’ve been sort of grappling, you know, it took me 45 years to work out the difference [00:29:45] between sort of pleasure and happiness, but now it’s something I’ve really [00:29:50] been hating going towards. But my conclusion is lower expectations. [00:29:55] You’re talking about be be comfortable with yourself. Yeah, [00:30:00] but what I learned, maybe my problem is expectations. And your problem is being alone. That [00:30:05] thing.

Speaker1: Well, I’m, uh, a recovering recovering addict. Right? [00:30:10] Um. So sorry.

Speaker2: Can you to be more specific, as in, like, was it the alcohol or [00:30:15] was it substance abuse or what do you feel, what was the addiction for you. So I’ll.

Speaker1: Tell you. So [00:30:20] being a recovering addict, right. Um, you realise that alcohol, [00:30:25] drugs, relationship, shopping or food are but a symptom [00:30:30] of someone who’s an addict? So if you have a cold, you [00:30:35] have a runny nose. Generally, if you get rid of the runny nose, you still have a cold. [00:30:40] But if you get rid of the cold, you run a runny nose. So there. But a symptom [00:30:45] like we spoke earlier about the phones are distracting because I can’t sit with myself. So, [00:30:50] um, it happiness. It depends what your understanding [00:30:55] of of of happiness is. There’s a difference between excitement, joy, [00:31:00] elation, getting a hit of dopamine from something, or being happy [00:31:05] with yourself. And how I look at that is that I don’t want to be somewhere [00:31:10] else, or be someone else, or be in a different space [00:31:15] than I am at that moment. That’s happiness.

Speaker3: For me. Meditation [00:31:20] helps a lot with that sort of.

Speaker1: It helps a lot, but it also and people [00:31:25] misunderstand what meditation is. Meditation is not stopping your thinking. So you’re in a Zen place at [00:31:30] the beginning. You have to observe your thinking. Therefore you’re separating yourself from your thinking. [00:31:35] That’s right. So I can be sitting here and I could say, I did this podcast [00:31:40] and I was really uncomfortable because of whatever. Or I can say I had a [00:31:45] thought that I was really uncomfortable, but I was okay with that. Yeah, it’s a separation. That’s a big [00:31:50] difference.

Speaker2: When you were talking about happiness and, you know, being comfortable [00:31:55] within yourself. I got asked yesterday, I was on a podcast and they were talking about body confidence. [00:32:00] Um, and I talk about my journey with body confidence. I had a difficult time at university. [00:32:05] I was always in with the IT crowd, you know, and having a great time, but I always [00:32:10] felt like I didn’t quite fit in. I came I come from a middle eastern background. It was a very like [00:32:15] public school boarding school mentality, and I never quite fitted in. And there were all of these different [00:32:20] judgements on the way that I look, and I went through a very like sad period of restrictive eating where I [00:32:25] was severely underweight and very unhappy, but also at the same time, because people [00:32:30] would congratulate me on me being the smallest version of myself. I felt better because I got that validation, [00:32:35] you know, it was a kind of horrible relationship that caused a lot of [00:32:40] internal conflict. Anyway, now I’m fine. I would say I’m fine in terms of like, I love food, I [00:32:45] enjoy food, I exercise, and I get on with it. But the question was asked, are you body confident? [00:32:50] And I said, I don’t think I’ll ever be body confident, but I am okay with that. You [00:32:55] know, as an I manage now as an I manage my thoughts and when I have a negative thought or when I have people commenting [00:33:00] on the way that I look on my parents and my body, I manage it. Whereas before I would [00:33:05] go into a state of total turmoil and I don’t know, like maybe you have the answer. [00:33:10] Like, do you ever overcome the issues that you’ve experienced? [00:33:15] You know, like you said, with addiction, like you’re aware that you had it, you’ve got coping mechanisms, but [00:33:20] do you think that you can ever fully get over those things.

Speaker1: Get over the experience [00:33:25] from the past, or get over them currently?

Speaker2: I suppose in a way that, you know, could your addiction [00:33:30] ever be triggered, or does the thought ever just stay kind of like prevalent in your mind sometimes? [00:33:35] Do you ever think about it? Or you’re just like, I don’t even think about it. I’m totally over it.

Speaker1: Two [00:33:40] things you said about being body confident. Are you confident but unconfident about the body? [00:33:45] They’re two separate things. Or if you’re a confident person, what’s encompassed in that confidence? For [00:33:50] me, I know that coming from a place of addiction [00:33:55] where everything is extreme. So when I was 13, um, [00:34:00] I’ve got pictures of me like 13, 14, 15. I was like 4 or 5% [00:34:05] body fat, ripped, um, completely shredded and looked amazing. I was very [00:34:10] confident about myself and everything. Probably cocky as a kid because you don’t know the difference. Um, [00:34:15] um, and. If you’re [00:34:20] it depends what you’re focussed on. So if you believe if I believe that my it’s my body [00:34:25] is everything. And as long as I look good, everything will be fine, then that’s a misunderstanding of what’s going on. [00:34:30] Also about what you said about we all have different differences [00:34:35] in life, right? But you have to look at the similarities. If you can find a similarity, [00:34:40] then you’ve got a common goal. So being a Londoner, [00:34:45] um, um, from a working class or a normal background, [00:34:50] I could pull out so many things where I, I could have been the victim of stuff. [00:34:55] Um, but I choose not to, but certain things can bother [00:35:00] me. Um, about that. Whereas you could turn round and [00:35:05] say, I was absolutely stunning. I had beautiful hair, I was fit, I was great. Most [00:35:10] people are uncomfortable going to uni or college, etc.

Speaker1: etc. and I’m very lucky that, [00:35:15] um, coming from my background in this country and then going to be very successful [00:35:20] and going to that place of study, which was amazing. And my friend group is incredible. [00:35:25] It’s an achievement where some people might not be able to even go to a [00:35:30] school or something. So you can turn it all around. Sure. Um, there [00:35:35] is a pressure of how we look as trust me, especially in the modelling world, and [00:35:40] it was very sad. I worked, I worked not long ago in Turkey, and there [00:35:45] was a girl who came on the job and she looked at, I mean, I [00:35:50] saw her pictures and she was stunning. When she walked on, I thought, I thought she just looked [00:35:55] very, very unwell and unhappy. And you can always tell in the eyes. And I sat down and spoke to her and basically [00:36:00] she said that her Milanese agent had told her that she’s got to lose weight and size [00:36:05] and this is how you do it. And I said, well, what’s this? Oh gosh, she [00:36:10] was having coffee, cigarettes, water and apples. And she that’s all she’d had for two weeks, could you imagine? [00:36:15] And I said to her, listen, you’ve got it’s not worth it. Just eat. There’s other ways [00:36:20] of doing stuff, but eat. So there is a problem in that industry in that way. [00:36:25]

Speaker2: And this is recent, right. Because I thought perhaps the narrative had changed a little bit with them. No. So [00:36:30] do you think that still think that the high end modelling industry is very much what it [00:36:35] was, for example, in the 90s?

Speaker1: Yeah. If you go to a job, if you’re [00:36:40] not, um, and the clothes have got smaller. So when I started I was a bit small [00:36:45] and I’ve got big shoulders always have done. Um, I like them, I’m quite proud of them. [00:36:50] But I got a lot of. Oh, your back’s too wide or your shoulders are too tall. I haven’t got I [00:36:55] was too short. I did my first show in Milan and it wasn’t on a catwalk. It was around the room [00:37:00] of chairs. And it was for Catherine, Catherine, hamlet. And as I walked out, this guy literally went, [00:37:05] oh, he’s sure, isn’t he? I thought, I’m six foot. Bear in mind the guy in front [00:37:10] was probably 511 and had heels on them behind. I was like, oh. So I started to [00:37:15] see that. Yeah. And it really, it really does affect you. Um, [00:37:20] but that’s that hasn’t changed. So when I started people were 40, 42 chest. [00:37:25] Now they’re 36, 38. So I went to [00:37:30] see someone the other day and all they had was sample sizes. I’m like 41, 42 [00:37:35] now. Um, I’m like, I’m not going to fit in those. Yeah.

Speaker2: And what was their response? [00:37:40]

Speaker1: Oh, right. Um, okay. Well, maybe you can try the jacket on. I was like, I’m not going to fit in it.

Speaker2: Yeah, [00:37:45] yeah.

Speaker1: So now I’m like, if it doesn’t fit, it doesn’t doesn’t work. But if I still do modelling. So [00:37:50] I did a wonderful shoot for Christian Dior for The Rack magazine and I said, guys [00:37:55] don’t get sample sizes. No one fits in them unless you’re really young and slim. [00:38:00] And I’m not. I’m quite a strong guy. So they just got my size and we did a wonderful shoot. That was [00:38:05] it.

Speaker2: So the the the onus on like the your looks and your appearance, [00:38:10] did that impact your mental health in any way? Because what I always think is [00:38:15] like, gosh, online particularly like with the younger generation, they place [00:38:20] such an importance on a depreciating asset. I mean, now we recognise [00:38:25] and I believe you know, that all stages of life, we’re beautiful in different ways. And I genuinely [00:38:30] believe that like 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, there’s different, you know, there’s different like [00:38:35] cycles in your life. But I worry because people that create a [00:38:40] platform or go into industries where it’s all about the way that you look, I [00:38:45] worry, you know, for the mental health, as you said, because this is an asset that that, you know, changes [00:38:50] and diminishes.

Speaker1: Yeah. You you got to remember that not everyone’s [00:38:55] like that, right? It is a beauty industry. And there are things that [00:39:00] sell and don’t sell. But look at Kate Moss. She’s tiny. [00:39:05] Look at Oliver Cheshire. You know, Oliver Cheshire had just changed clothing. Um he’s [00:39:10] small. He. No one would work with him. And my agent, the same one who helped me, was like, I work [00:39:15] with Olly. He’s amazing. I think he’s like 510. Yeah, the guy smashed it. I’m really well, [00:39:20] because he had someone around him pushing him that had a different vision. So it depends [00:39:25] on your level. If you’re general, you’ve got to fit into something. But as you make a name [00:39:30] for yourself, as you become more talented, what you do and it’s not just looks, you have to a you [00:39:35] have to know what you’re doing. Um.

Speaker3: What is that? What do you mean [00:39:40] within the shoot?

Speaker1: Yeah. You have to know. Yeah. I mean, it’s less now because you’re digital, [00:39:45] so you can, like, change things after. But initially. Yeah, we use on film. [00:39:50] You did one Polaroid. You got that shot right. You would [00:39:55] do eight shots a day, right. So you needed to know as a model where what [00:40:00] material are you wearing. How does that. Hang on your body. What is the energy [00:40:05] you’re putting through? So everything comes from the eyes, like acting. So what are [00:40:10] you portraying? What’s the story you’re doing? So there’s a lot to it. If you want to do really well, you can stand there [00:40:15] and look angular if you want, and just look at happy in your eyes and you’ll you’ll get away [00:40:20] with it. But to be really good, to really go to the top of that game, you have to be an artist [00:40:25] in knowing what you’re doing, what works, how do you move?

Speaker3: And the creative saying, [00:40:30] now I want sultry or whatever, whatever the particular mood is, and you’ve got to try. [00:40:35] And I mean, you must be really good at this, right? Because for years you were right at the top of that game. [00:40:40] But I think the question you were asking was more about, you know, losing looks. Yeah. And [00:40:45] you see that amongst the women more. Right? Yeah.

Speaker2: Because men obviously are celebrated, as you said, for ageing. [00:40:50] And I have a friend actually who’s a model now, I’m sure you know him. And he smashes it with his jobs [00:40:55] like Hugo Woods. Yeah, yeah. So he’s like someone that I’ve known for many years, [00:41:00] and I always see him on the kind of like older grey beard, grey like campaigns, which is like the silver [00:41:05] fox, you know, type thing. And but women don’t [00:41:10] obviously. I mean, Payman and I talk about this all the time, like, women are celebrated for their beauty in their 20s. [00:41:15] If they’re lucky, they might still have it in their 30s, you know, whatever the going says. So. [00:41:20] And obviously the industry, I don’t see women really in that. You get either the really young [00:41:25] ones or the really old ones. I don’t see the in-between market at all.

Speaker1: Well, you’re selling a dream, aren’t [00:41:30] you? In reality, um, I have have a [00:41:35] female friend of mine. She’s 80 and she’s so beautiful, so beautiful. And [00:41:40] beauty really is from within. You can have a really handsome guy with an eight pack. [00:41:45] Best body you’ve ever seen.

Speaker2: Ever.

Speaker1: And you know, he’s got no personality. He might [00:41:50] be a narcissist. Whatever it is, it doesn’t matter at the end of the day, especially [00:41:55] in relationships, because once you shut that door, it’s just you guys and you’ve got to get on. [00:42:00] And beauty really is from within. Like, I really learned that in my industry regarding [00:42:05] age, um, it’s a young industry, but I think [00:42:10] the grey fox is catching up for men because people don’t have money [00:42:15] before 35. Generally, I’m generalising around the world to 65, [00:42:20] and if you go and ask a lot of guys in a members club in London or whatever and [00:42:25] say, can you relate to this picture of someone who’s 19 versus no, [00:42:30] they had there was no correlation. And I think the industry lost itself for some time [00:42:35] because it was very it was only ecosystem, and it never looked out to see what people [00:42:40] would really want. As you get older and you look at pictures [00:42:45] of yourself again, I’m generalising. It’s a desire to be, oh, I’m so young. I was actually [00:42:50] really cool. I could move around. So there’s a romantic idea where I think ladies [00:42:55] want to be beautiful and keep their beauty.

Speaker1: But if you learn to [00:43:00] grow as a person and you have more interest than that, [00:43:05] and you have more value than that, then you should you should change. Because I think in life [00:43:10] I can only speak from a guy’s point of view early on. It’s all about material how much money we can get, how many [00:43:15] women? Well, for some, yeah. And can I date these people? Can I, [00:43:20] can I go to that place? I’m going to this beach. I’m going to that party. I’m wearing this outfit. It’s amazing. [00:43:25] Then after, as you grow older or grow up, um, that wears [00:43:30] off and you realise that’s not the answer and then you go for [00:43:35] relationships. How do I relate to people? How can I have a nice conversation or have fun [00:43:40] with people? And then after that, it’s experiences in life where we’re going to travel together, what we’re going [00:43:45] to do. So I think unless you change your, um, [00:43:50] thought process or understanding, then you’re not going to grow. Then you’re going to you’re missing this. You’re missing the [00:43:55] whole trick.

Speaker2: Do you think that when [00:44:00] you entered the life of sobriety, did your friendship group and the people [00:44:05] that you hung out with inevitably change, and the type of people that you found engaging in the [00:44:10] conversations that you were having? Yeah.

Speaker1: Absolutely. Because [00:44:15] you kind of find your tribe. If you’re a soccer player, you’re probably hanging around footballers because you can talk about [00:44:20] it, you know, play football or boxing or whatever, or dentists, you probably hang out.

Speaker2: I’m [00:44:25] joking. Joking. Yeah. Um.

Speaker1: Because [00:44:30] you can relate to something. If you’re partying and you like going out, your friends are going [00:44:35] to be partiers. It’s as simple as that. And you’re going to go out. And that was crazy last night and do what you did. [00:44:40] And I think everyone should go out and enjoy themselves 100%. But at one point [00:44:45] you kind of grow out of it, or there’s those that don’t grow out of it and they’re just, you see [00:44:50] the guy who like 55 years old, 60 in the middle, you know, in the corner of a club just trying to and you’re like, please. [00:44:55] Yeah. And bless them. There’s people that still do that because they’re trying to capture that [00:45:00] past thing again. So you have to grow individually. But for sobriety? Yeah. For me, [00:45:05] I had to change a lot of friends. Not that I made the decision to change, but [00:45:10] if you’re going to a party and you’re not drinking, people get bored of it because you’re not on [00:45:15] the same wavelength. You know, I disagree.

Speaker2: Okay, I’ll tell you why. Because [00:45:20] I’ve been teetotal my whole life. So I tried a drink when I was [00:45:25] like 13, when everyone else started drinking and I was like, I actually don’t like the taste of this. And then when [00:45:30] I saw more of my friends spiral out of control, lose themselves, become alter egos, [00:45:35] etc., I was like, I don’t like this. And then I had enough self-awareness, even [00:45:40] at that young age, to be like, you know what? I think [00:45:45] that I actually have anxiety and I actually don’t think [00:45:50] alcohol will be conducive nor drugs to my anxiety. But I continued to go [00:45:55] out because I loved music and I loved moving my body, and I loved all those things, [00:46:00] and I managed to stay up with other people. But having said that, because I never drank, there [00:46:05] was a never an expectation for me to be on the same wavelength as them. I think the only challenge was [00:46:10] dating because when I would go on dates, people be like, oh, she’s not drinking and it’s classic, can I buy you [00:46:15] a drink? So I had to do the like, throw the shot over my shoulder thing, like, you know.

Speaker3: Drunk on life, though, you know [00:46:20] that, you know, some people, some people are repressed a little bit. So [00:46:25] it takes getting drunk to be themselves. Totally. So I meant.

Speaker1: I meant an extreme about [00:46:30] that. You’re right about being on a different wavelength when your friends. Yeah. Oh, my God, I love.

Speaker3: You so much. It’s so [00:46:35] nice. Yeah.

Speaker1: Don’t tell me you’re on the same wavelength if you’re out dancing and having fun. She’s like. [00:46:40]

Speaker3: She’s like that when she’s sober, though, that’s calm down.

Speaker1: That’s different. So yeah, you [00:46:45] can’t be on the same wavelength as someone who’s crying into their drink and stuff. You’re either going to be care [00:46:50] for them or you’re going to go, okay, you’re okay. But there’s difference between what I mean, [00:46:55] I was generalising from going, I love to go out and party and dance and stuff with friends. That’s different. I can [00:47:00] do that. But at one point when they are of a really slurring or they’ve gone on to substances, [00:47:05] then I’m out. No, you’re.

Speaker2: Right, you’re right. Like and then there is that point. I mean, I went to the very [00:47:10] famous Chiltern Firehouse. It’s my favourite after I did my last podcast with you. It’s my favourite, [00:47:15] um, hangout place. And I always say it’s like going to a Great Gatsby party [00:47:20] because you go and you see everyone that’s meant to be seen and you see the celebrities [00:47:25] and you see, and I love to go as an observer because as I said, like Great Gatsby, everyone’s [00:47:30] there and they want to be there, but no one actually cares about anyone else that’s there. And if someone died, [00:47:35] no one would be at their funeral, you know? So I think it’s such a strong analogy. And when [00:47:40] I was there, I, you know, saw all these different people, but again, like they [00:47:45] start going on to the substances and their personas change. The thing is.

Speaker3: We talked [00:47:50] we kind of talked about this. You don’t see plant medicine or some, uh, mushroom [00:47:55] tea as substances. Yeah, but they are substances. Yeah.

Speaker2: No, no, [00:48:00] no. But the thing is, I disagree because I think that ultimately there are substances [00:48:05] that I said are used for self-soothing and can be abused. And then there is plant medicine. You use the word [00:48:10] medicine and it’s no. But personally, for myself, as I said to you, like, [00:48:15] if.

Speaker3: I mean, as he was saying, it could be shopping.

Speaker2: Totally. And I’m sure in your mouth [00:48:20] I’m sure you’ve read the work of Gabor, mate. I always bring him up on this. But Gabor would say that most [00:48:25] people have some form of addiction, and it could be an addiction to watching the Twilight series, or [00:48:30] it could be an addiction. We all have some kind of addiction, and that’s why he really pushes society [00:48:35] to re-evaluate the way that we treat addicts and addiction itself. And it’s super interesting. I follow [00:48:40] his work very clearly, and I get what you’re saying. But also I’m interested because from a medical [00:48:45] point of view, I don’t think that we integrate enough medicines that are actually conducive [00:48:50] to our health. You know, the type of medicines that pharma, for example, want to give to [00:48:55] people are based on them being reliant and addicted to them, whereas something like plant medicines, from the research that [00:49:00] I’ve done, you don’t need to be addicted to those substances, you know. Yes, there are highly addictive [00:49:05] to be.

Speaker3: Addicted to anything, right? Yeah.

Speaker2: Yeah, totally. But it’s also about intention, as you said. You know, we’ve [00:49:10] had people on this podcast that have talked about doing ayahuasca as we’ve discussed, but and there are [00:49:15] people that abuse ayahuasca. I meet guys at Chiltern Firehouse. They’re like, I’ve done my 18th ceremony. I’m like, okay, great. You’re [00:49:20] still like messing around here with million women, like living a hedonistic lifestyle. [00:49:25] But the point is, and then there’s people that go there because they’ve had trauma. They want to confront [00:49:30] their demons. They want to overcome stuff. So I think intention is a really important part of all of this with anything.

Speaker1: I totally [00:49:35] agree. But I would say that the word addiction is [00:49:40] if you’re not addicted to Netflix, you’re happy to sit down and have a gelato and [00:49:45] watch. Netflix is comfortable and you really want to see what happens in the next one. But you’re not going to go and rob someone [00:49:50] to watch Netflix or murder. So there’s a big difference is [00:49:55] a big, big difference. And in a place like Los Angeles, people would [00:50:00] shoot you in a. Neighbourhood to get money or something to go and get drugs. That’s [00:50:05] a that’s addiction at its worst. That’s at worst. Or there’s a wonderful [00:50:10] store near us that has some beautiful bottles of wine, and one guy keeps breaking [00:50:15] the windows and running in there to take it and run off. That’s an alcoholic who has addiction problems. Yeah, [00:50:20] there’s a difference between it’s really it’s really a big difference. And people should [00:50:25] stop using the word addiction for when they’re not addicted to something because [00:50:30] they’re not putting their whole family. You know, they’re not saying, I’m not going to feed my child [00:50:35] because I’m watching this movie. Let it wait. They won’t do that. That’s not addicted. That’s [00:50:40] really enthusiastic about something. They want to see it. Yeah, there’s a big difference. And I really believe [00:50:45] intention. What you’re saying is, is, is a whole subject, [00:50:50] um, that people can see that look like they’re doing the same actions in life, but [00:50:55] the intention is the key to what they’re doing.

Speaker2: But you’ve used the word addicted. So do you think that [00:51:00] what at some point your your well-being and [00:51:05] you know, the substances around you or the relationships around you, you use that word. Do you feel then that you were [00:51:10] putting anyone at harm or just yourself at harm to, you know, get that hit, as it were? [00:51:15]

Speaker1: Um, no. Well it depends. [00:51:20] That was a very broad question.

Speaker2: What I mean is, because you said you gave the analogy, like, [00:51:25] for example, no one’s going to kill someone to watch the next episode of Netflix, but you. So you have [00:51:30] to use the word addiction carefully. So you use the word you said that you were an addict, [00:51:35] you know, so I’m saying, so what extent would it be like, how did you feel that the self destruction or the destruction to [00:51:40] others manifested, manifested itself?

Speaker1: So mine wasn’t a destruction to others? Yeah, [00:51:45] it was, I was I was a sole trader, as it were. Yeah. Uh, and while I [00:51:50] was a sole trader, because a, I didn’t know I had addiction problems, um, until I [00:51:55] went into rehab. Um, and. I used to just [00:52:00] travel. I’m not a horrible person. Um, I’m a very kind person at heart, [00:52:05] and I was very sensitive as a kid. But I think I’m going back to your first question as well. [00:52:10] Probably reaction to a lot of that was to, um, you got to remember [00:52:15] that alcohol is a painkiller. So most drugs, right, emotional painkillers and mental painkillers. [00:52:20] And if you’ve got something going on inside that you [00:52:25] haven’t dealt with, you’re going to have pain or you’re going to have a thought process that tries to divert [00:52:30] you from feeling that pain. Hence why most people don’t want to be in themselves. Right? So when you get [00:52:35] to have the ability to face that to the core, then I believe [00:52:40] that that you arrest that addiction because that energy goes so for me, [00:52:45] um.

Speaker3: Was there a moment when you’re saying you weren’t you didn’t realise [00:52:50] that you you were an addict, but then you ended up in rehab. So was was there a moment where you did realise [00:52:55] and what was what was that?

Speaker1: Yeah, I got tired of I for me, I was just enjoying life. Burning candle [00:53:00] at both ends. I was told that, yeah, if you’re going to work hard, you should play hard. And that’s what I did. [00:53:05] But towards the end I realised that actually there was partying [00:53:10] and then it started to be partying and consequences. Then there was partying and more [00:53:15] consequences. Then there was a lot of consequences. And then I realised that I [00:53:20] started to, um, not want to leave my house like I’m fearful of going to [00:53:25] the shops. And I stopped looking people in the eye. What happened to this person? I used to be a bright kid [00:53:30] who really liked to engage with people. I love to turn up at work, and there was a couple of times [00:53:35] I turned up to work and I just didn’t want to be there. I felt awful, I self-conscious that [00:53:40] they can see I’ve been out all night and and it just wasn’t right. It just didn’t feel right [00:53:45] from someone who wanted to be very successful in their career. This was now overtaking the [00:53:50] drive to be successful and happy because I couldn’t see it myself. It was more about [00:53:55] trying to. Nothing worked anymore. And [00:54:00] I had this great analogy that someone told me that in 1954, alcoholism [00:54:05] and addiction was graded as a disease and an illness in America. So [00:54:10] you’re born at this ease with yourself, or you get [00:54:15] to a point where you’re at dis ease with yourself. So you take something from the outside and put it in [00:54:20] or behaviour so you’re at ease with yourself.

Speaker1: But at one point when that stops working, [00:54:25] you’re at dis ease with yourself or you’re drinking or not. And your [00:54:30] disease disease yourself with your drinking. So you are now completely at disease [00:54:35] with yourself. There’s nowhere to go. And at that point you have to make a decision. Am I going to go in and sort [00:54:40] this out because this is where I live anyway, no matter if you’re in a big house, small house you live in [00:54:45] here, or am I going to just go to the very end and try and be a rock star? So [00:54:50] for me, it was tired of those feelings, tired of being, um, just [00:54:55] feeling really ill and unwell and not wanting to do the things I used [00:55:00] to do and behave the way I used to behave. And I had incredible shame and guilt [00:55:05] because, um, I just didn’t want to go out in the house. I didn’t want to engage. [00:55:10] Started thinking, oh, no one likes me, but I wasn’t phoning them, you know? So your behaviours changes. [00:55:15] And I started to make excuses. I can’t go out because of this or can’t [00:55:20] go out because of that. And at that point I was like, something’s happening. I need to I need to sort myself [00:55:25] out. I’ve clearly come to the end of a carriage in this train, and if I want to go to the next one, [00:55:30] I need to address myself.

Speaker3: So what what was the process? Was one one [00:55:35] session of rehab enough for you to change yourself? Yeah.

Speaker1: So rehabilitation [00:55:40] is great. It’s it’s an airbag.

Speaker2: So hold on. So you went to rehab. At [00:55:45] what point in your life? How old were you? What age?

Speaker1: Yeah, I went when I was 33.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker2: Um, [00:55:50] and from the States, was it in the States or what was it? No, I.

Speaker1: Actually went in London. I was living [00:55:55] in Los Angeles. I came back because my mum was not very well, and I came back [00:56:00] and also being in my home environment shone out that something [00:56:05] wasn’t well, because like I said, when you’re partying, you tend to be with parties. [00:56:10] But when I went back to my home environment, I stood out because that was different. [00:56:15] And I started to get all the feelings and all the thoughts and process. So I went into, [00:56:20] uh, a friend of mine took me into a rehab. Uh, I went in there. I had no idea [00:56:25] what I was going in there for, except I just was burnt out. Um, and [00:56:30] I really went in there for anxiety. I went in there for an anxiety disorder because I just was like [00:56:35] this all the time. And, um, whilst I was in there, I realised that actually [00:56:40] I have been using substances and alcohol to soothe myself. Words you [00:56:45] used. A bit deeper than that, but it was basically just to try and take [00:56:50] the edge off life just so I could cope. And I said to someone, it was funny. I was running out the gate [00:56:55] from this rehab to run down to a pub, and I clocked [00:57:00] what I said. And I said to myself, if you go in there and you can have some pints [00:57:05] or some whisky or whatever, then you can deal with what they’re telling you about yourself. And [00:57:10] at that moment I had an aha moment. I thought, oh my God, I. I [00:57:15] need something out to to help me cope with life. And I thought, I don’t want to be like that. I don’t [00:57:20] want to be reliant upon anything outside of myself. So I went back in. I [00:57:25] checked myself in for another 28 days, and then I did aftercare after that, [00:57:30] and that took me on a journey of doing yoga, not to be physically fit, [00:57:35] but to actually do yoga properly. Meditation, Tai chi.

Speaker3: Manage [00:57:40] your state in a different way, right?

Speaker1: Yeah, but learn about myself because what people don’t do, we’re in our bodies [00:57:45] and everything we do is on the outside. If I get that house, if I get that car, if I get this, [00:57:50] I’ll be okay when I have that relationship and.

Speaker2: Then you get it and you’re not okay.

Speaker1: No, which is a great blessing [00:57:55] because then you realise, oh, I’m not okay. So something you also.

Speaker3: Dated A-list celebrities, [00:58:00] and you must have seen that idea that, you know, a lot of very successful people are very sad. [00:58:05]

Speaker1: It depends on the person, doesn’t it? Yeah. I mean, it’s I [00:58:10] think when you say this sad. I think a lot of successful people can be lonely because [00:58:15] other people can’t identify with them. So you hear normal people, for example, [00:58:20] um, saying, oh, I spoke to this celebrity and they was [00:58:25] rude, or they have to have a car service, so they’re stuck up or they have security. What’s their problem? Can’t they [00:58:30] walk around? But no, a lot of people can’t walk around because they will get too famous completely, you [00:58:35] know, pulled upon and let me know this. Let me have a picture in your life. You become unfree. [00:58:40] So I understand that process. Um, so there’s probably a loneliness in there because I love [00:58:45] to walk around. I really love to be free. And I learnt myself early on. [00:58:50] I used to get car service in New York. I used to love walking up to the ropes, to the clubs and being [00:58:55] let in and having my own table. But in hindsight, I realised that [00:59:00] actually what I’m doing, I’m pulling myself away from people. I’m isolating [00:59:05] myself. I’m in the back of a car, which is great because you, for the first five minutes you feel important and [00:59:10] and a car service is good because if you need to get somewhere, it’s fine. But I was looking at it the wrong [00:59:15] way in the beginning when I realised that like, [00:59:20] I get I get the tube a lot in London and I do like, like most people do, but for a long time I wanted to drive [00:59:25] or get car services. I didn’t want to get on the tube. Now I love to get on the tube. I want to be in the amongst people. I want to be [00:59:30] in life, you know, because I.

Speaker2: Actually prefer the bus. Just saying. Love the [00:59:35] London bus. Top floor.

Speaker4: 22 I.

Speaker2: Love the bus.

Speaker3: But did you ever get famous [00:59:40] enough that, uh, people were recognising you in the streets and.

Speaker1: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. In the 90s, 100%. [00:59:45] Yeah, yeah, completely.

Speaker3: What’s that like, awful or amazing?

Speaker1: Well, initially, [00:59:50] um, as a young man, I thought all of a sudden I’ve arrived. This is so important. This [00:59:55] is wonderful. And it be. It was a great feeling. It was a new feeling. And it was a great feeling because [01:00:00] I’d never had that in my life before. And there was moments where he was in a bar in Majorca [01:00:05] and we couldn’t leave the bar because there was a load of screaming girls and stuff, and someone took us out the back. So [01:00:10] it’s so nice to have them experiences. Um, and they’re fun. Um, [01:00:15] but if that if that was became important for me, for my life, I’d have been incredibly [01:00:20] sad. And I think it’s dangerous for a person. So I realised I [01:00:25] love my freedom and I love my anonymity, and I love to just wear whatever I want a pair of old jeans [01:00:30] and t shirt, and I don’t have to worry about it.

Speaker3: Yeah, I mean, if you go for a Starbucks and [01:00:35] you can’t get your Starbucks because people recognise you, that’s an awful life, right? I mean, I [01:00:40] always thought what would be amazing would be to have a very famous name, but not a very famous face, [01:00:45] you know, like, I don’t know.

Speaker4: It’s interesting.

Speaker2: There’s actually there’s actually a very, um, big [01:00:50] podcaster online. She’s amazing, I love her. Her whole profile is [01:00:55] built on just without her face. And even when she, like, releases [01:01:00] her podcast, it’s like she does a cartoon. It’s a cartoon. Do you see what I mean? And then when people take photos of [01:01:05] her, when they have her, she blurs her face out. It’s quite clever. And they basically like she’s built her whole profile [01:01:10] on like what she has to say, not what she looks like, which I think is very smart.

Speaker4: Um, yeah. [01:01:15] That’s what.

Speaker3: She did, wasn’t.

Speaker4: It? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker2: So I think.

Speaker3: You know, there are jobs. There [01:01:20] are jobs. I was trying to think of it, you know, what are jobs that are where the the name is more famous.

Speaker4: Than the face.

Speaker2: For [01:01:25] example, I had, um, I.

Speaker4: I have a friend.

Speaker2: Of, um, I [01:01:30] got introduced to somebody that was a lawyer and his. He owns [01:01:35] the most famous law firm in the UK.

Speaker4: And with a chance.

Speaker2: No, [01:01:40] this is Mishcon de Reya.

Speaker3: Is he.

Speaker4: Mishcon?

Speaker2: Yeah, exactly. [01:01:45] So any time his name is seen, everyone’s like Mishcon. Like, I didn’t even really [01:01:50] know who he was. But people are like, you know him? I was like, yeah, I know him. Do you know what I mean? It’s like I didn’t think anything of.

Speaker4: It, [01:01:55] like.

Speaker3: A DJ or someone, you know, like, yeah, like, I don’t know, people probably know what David [01:02:00] Guetta looks like, right? But the name is more famous than The Face. Or I know a formula one driver. [01:02:05] Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker2: But having, you know, Paul also [01:02:10] like, you’ve had the, um, privilege of, you know, working. King in an era [01:02:15] where there wasn’t. We weren’t so reliant on digital and mobile phones and etc.. Do you [01:02:20] think it has become worse for people working, as I say, in the luxe [01:02:25] business, because of online, you know, because of what they’re subject [01:02:30] to? And also, do you think the traditional modelling industry is suffering as a result [01:02:35] of online? And also, I.

Speaker5: Think.

Speaker1: It’s a big question. [01:02:40] I think, um, it depends on the person, because when you say subject [01:02:45] two, you’re basically saying the person’s a victim, right? But you have [01:02:50] a choice. People do have we still have choices of what we want to do. I think that, [01:02:55] um, the internet and apps like Instagram [01:03:00] or whatever have given people a platform that would never get one. Yeah, there’s [01:03:05] a positive, even for me.

Speaker2: That’s what happened with me.

Speaker1: There’s a positive to that. Yeah, 100%. And [01:03:10] if you use that as a tool to do what you’re doing an incredible job [01:03:15] and have a great space, that’s wonderful. If you’re doing it just to show something [01:03:20] like bags or whatever, and you’re famous for doing silly things, I don’t think that’s a great way to be. [01:03:25] Um. I am lucky that I was in that area because, um, [01:03:30] you had to know yourself better and your trade better at what you did. [01:03:35] And it seems to me now that the person that shouts the loudest gets [01:03:40] heard. And that’s not the person who’s the most skilful person, or so there can [01:03:45] be a bit of a difficult biased in that way. Um, and I think there’s a lot [01:03:50] of someone said it was quite funny. There’s a lot of Instagram models that that don’t have. Agents could never get [01:03:55] an agent and some of them done really well, which is great because it’s given the platform. But some of them say [01:04:00] I’m a model and I do really well, but they don’t, and they’re desperate to do [01:04:05] that. And I think that’s damaging to them. And I think the people that probably follow them have a, have a, have [01:04:10] a disillusion of what it’s really about.

Speaker2: I think you get that in dentistry as well. Like Payman will back [01:04:15] me on this one. I went to go see, um, a Picture of Dorian Grey last week, and [01:04:20] I have to say I hugely recommend it. It was one of the best plays I’ve ever seen, so theatre is my passion. Sarah [01:04:25] Snook, uh, was a one man band, so she’s the woman in succession. I don’t know if you’ve seen succession. Yeah. So she [01:04:30] plays 26 roles. And if you know the story of, um, Picture of Dorian Grey by Oscar Wilde, [01:04:35] um, about a young boy that’s always celebrated for the way he looks. Eventually someone [01:04:40] gets commissioned to do his portrait. He’s so mesmerised by it. But then it also hits him [01:04:45] that, you know, he’ll not always look like this. So he makes a deal with the portrait and basically says, I’ll [01:04:50] trade my soul to ensure that eternal youth. Then he goes on to live like an incredibly hedonistic lifestyle. [01:04:55] Now when you watch the play, they integrate like modern day. And it was really interesting [01:05:00] because Dorian Grey was like kind of looking in the mirror, but they put Instagram filters and it was [01:05:05] a constant with the Instagram filters, and I was like, it’s so interesting because obviously this [01:05:10] is somebody that represents the epitome of narcissism, like Dorian Grey, and the [01:05:15] more hedonistic and awful he becomes, the more he gets away with it because of the way that he looks. [01:05:20] And I was thinking algorithm. Yeah. And for me, I think like we have so much of that [01:05:25] now, like people celebrate a lot of people online. And I think you’re right. But I know [01:05:30] that, for example, in dentistry, people are chasing the numbers in the fame rather than patient [01:05:35] safety skills and all of like the traditional values. And I think.

Speaker3: It must have been [01:05:40] accused of that.

Speaker4: Oh, all the.

Speaker2: Time, all the time. And that’s why I made a huge promise to myself, like, [01:05:45] first and foremost are my patients. And Payman knows, like I’ve built a clinic with some of the best clinicians [01:05:50] in the country, you know, and it’s difficult working with like some of the best clinicians because they are all incredible [01:05:55] at what they do. And I could have been taken the classic model where I built a clinic just based off [01:06:00] my name, but I was like, no, I want my patients to get the absolute best. And I have been accused of that [01:06:05] because I think people assume when you because.

Speaker3: You’re so successful. Right? Well, did you ever [01:06:10] think about cosmetic surgery, Botox, cosmetic dentistry?

Speaker1: I’ve had loads done. Payman. [01:06:15]

Speaker4: Oh no you haven’t.

Speaker1: I probably need some. Um, yeah. One [01:06:20] once there was a time where, um, I was having a very bad [01:06:25] time before I went into rehab, when my self-esteem [01:06:30] just hit rock bottom, and I did go to see a surgeon, and I said, can you just make me look like [01:06:35] this? Which I have? I have my favourite photograph. Yeah, I.

Speaker3: Have my for yourself. Yeah. [01:06:40]

Speaker1: From a shot Versace campaign, um, in [01:06:45] Los Angeles with Bruce Weber. And it was just the best picture I’ve ever seen of [01:06:50] myself. And that image had locked into my mind. And I used to look in the mirror [01:06:55] with absolute hate. Like, what happened to you? What? What have you done? So I [01:07:00] went to see a surgeon to see. He basically laughed at me, and I’m very thankful for him because had [01:07:05] he not had morals and stuff, he could clearly see I was not. Well, um, he [01:07:10] could have said, yeah, let’s do this. And charged heroin, which he charged and stuff. And he said, no, you don’t need anything. [01:07:15] And I was literally pleading with at the time, I said, no, I’m not going to do surgery on you said said, come back in a year and we’ll talk [01:07:20] about it. I never went back. I didn’t need to. Um, so that was because my self perception [01:07:25] was so low.

Speaker3: Um, I had like a body dysmorphia type of, um. [01:07:30]

Speaker1: You can call it that. I don’t know whether it was body dysmorphia. It was just a negative [01:07:35] loop of thought processes where I was comparing myself to something at some point. [01:07:40] Correct.

Speaker2: And I do that all the time.

Speaker4: By the way.

Speaker1: So compare and despair, isn’t it? If as soon as you look at something, this is the thing, [01:07:45] you see someone in a beautiful car, or see someone you want to look like, you [01:07:50] just it’s snapshot image, and then we compare how we feel [01:07:55] to what we’re seeing and is never going to be the same. It’s always going to be discord because you don’t [01:08:00] know what that person’s going through, how they got what they got. And again, once you get there, [01:08:05] you’ll realise, oh, this is not that great. No.

Speaker3: But although this came up in, um, [01:08:10] dentistry. Right. The question, you know, there’s a lot you can do in dentistry that damages teeth. Right. [01:08:15] And so there are things like, uh, where you draw the tooth porcelain veneers, [01:08:20] you draw the tooth, and then you fit a veneer porcelain bit facing on the front of it. And of course, [01:08:25] now you can do the minimally and so forth, but. The question came up, would you do porcelain veneers on an 18 year old? [01:08:30] No. Global Dental Collective with me and the [01:08:35] people were giving different answers and everyone was saying no, no, no. And then someone, Sahil said, [01:08:40] what if she’s a model and that’s her livelihood? Um, [01:08:45] it’s a different situation. You know, I.

Speaker2: I understand, I understand, [01:08:50] hear what you say. And like, obviously I’ve had, you know, elective things done to preserve my youth, [01:08:55] etc. and I’ve had my teeth done. I’ve had my teeth done as well as, you know. But, you know, I had [01:09:00] something called composite bonding. And the reason why I had that done is because I had really like thin, eroded enamel. That [01:09:05] was the reason. And I do have people, in my view, when people come to me and I genuinely don’t see anything [01:09:10] wrong with them, I’ll have that conversation where I say, look, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you. Um, particularly [01:09:15] if they bring up like an Instagram or TikTok trend and they’re like, look at this. This person had like, are my teeth [01:09:20] wide enough? You know, because I start talking about Margot Robbie’s smile. And then I suddenly had an influx of patients being like, make me wider, [01:09:25] like make me smile really wide. And I had someone, she had beautiful teeth. And I said, listen, you don’t need anything now. [01:09:30]

Speaker3: But it’s not. It’s not a.

Speaker4: Need. No, but.

Speaker2: Listen. Yeah, yeah, I get that. But what I’m trying to say is as [01:09:35] well is that there are some people that do have low self confidence because of their [01:09:40] teeth. And I would disagree with you and say like for example, composite bonding. Everyone’s like minimally invasive. I’ve seen plenty [01:09:45] of non minimally invasive composite bonding. And on top of that removal of composite bonding is [01:09:50] not minimally invasive. I just had mine all redone. It is not minimally invasive to like remove it you know. So I [01:09:55] think that like anything that you do it’s a choice. And you as Paul said, you have to be doing [01:10:00] it for the right reasons. Like if you are trying to make yourself like you were in a moment in time. And [01:10:05] I’ve had people like that, you know, people who are 60 and like, look at my teeth when I was 25. Can [01:10:10] I.

Speaker4: Have that.

Speaker3: Surgeon right? This surgeon could have said.

Speaker4: But you can’t, though realistically [01:10:15] could.

Speaker3: Have said could have said he understands the risks, he understands the benefits. [01:10:20] He’s an adult. He’s come to me and said, I want this done. That’s consent I’ve got, [01:10:25] I’ve got we’ve got to think. Informed consent, valid consent. These are legal terms for you agreeing to [01:10:30] have something done. He could have said all that. He could have felt all that. Obviously his bank balance would have gone up. I don’t know what [01:10:35] procedure you were after, but he didn’t. He he he he saw something his spidey sense [01:10:40] or something, told him not to do it and advised him to come back in a year. What I’m saying [01:10:45] is, you know, we’ve got a thing in dentistry called the daughter test. Would you do it to your daughter? And [01:10:50] there is there is an element of it’s not your choice. It’s your daughter’s choice. [01:10:55] Yeah. If she really understands the risks and benefits and wants to go ahead, then [01:11:00] it’s her choice. But. But this guy saw something, and you’re [01:11:05] really grateful for him for not doing it right? Oh, completely. Yeah. So it’s a it’s a really you know, it’s [01:11:10] an interesting point. It’s a I.

Speaker2: Think that’s I think that’s something to be said though for like emotional intelligence. So you [01:11:15] probably know from fed as well. Um, I always bang on about this that there is a real lack [01:11:20] of nuance thinking and a multifaceted approach [01:11:25] to medical care within, especially within the UK. So typically when you go [01:11:30] to a doctor, a dentist and someone says, I don’t like this or I want, I [01:11:35] need to have this done, or I broke this tooth, they literally like see a diagnosis [01:11:40] and then they treat the symptom. Whereas multifaceted approaches [01:11:45] where we look at other things in life, like you said, it was your psychological condition, your [01:11:50] stress and your self-worth that were affecting you, needing to change the way that you look. A doctor [01:11:55] that doesn’t have emotional intelligence will be like he’s trying to reverse ageing. Does that make sense? And to reverse ageing? [01:12:00] We do this and it’s a completely different way of thinking. And I think that this doctor clearly [01:12:05] had the emotional intelligence, which I believe that I have as well, because and people will say [01:12:10] it’s a red flag patient, I would actually disagree and say it may be more difficult to manage, but that’s not [01:12:15] the reason you shouldn’t be treating it. You get to the core. And that’s why sometimes I ask people, why [01:12:20] are you doing it? Does that make sense? You know, like what is the reason that you’re doing it? So I think that that’s [01:12:25] a really important approach within like the medical arena.

Speaker2: One thing I want to ask you, Paul as well, [01:12:30] like I can hear and feel that you’ve done so much work on yourself and that’s [01:12:35] so empowering. I think for a lot of people, especially young men, Payman and [01:12:40] I ruminate often about young men because we worry about the role models that are out [01:12:45] there at the moment. And I think typically you would agree that a lot of the younger generation, you know, what’s [01:12:50] the one behind Gen Z, who’s behind Gen Z, Gen X? Why is that it? There are even [01:12:55] worse because they look online and they see these archetypal figures that display masculinity, [01:13:00] for example. And they see it as, you know, being macho in [01:13:05] ways that are like Johnny Bravo or something like that, almost like a caricature type, you know, person. [01:13:10] But I feel worried because I think mental health with regards to men is [01:13:15] not spoken about enough. There is still a huge stigma, and I don’t think we’re making much progress because, as I said, [01:13:20] where are the role models, where are the men like leading the way? And I think not enough is [01:13:25] given. Not enough space is given to. To these men. What’s your views on that?

Speaker5: Who [01:13:30] is the deep subject?

Speaker1: It’s, um. I’m. I do mindset [01:13:35] coaching, so I’m mindset coach. A lot of guys and I mentor a lot of guys. And I always have done in [01:13:40] the industry as well in fashion because when I was a younger man, I craved [01:13:45] to have a mentor and I never had one. So I learnt a lot of things by doing [01:13:50] mistakes, which now I’m grateful for because it’s shaped me. But I [01:13:55] really desire to have that. I love learning, I’m someone who just loves learning. I love people because you can learn [01:14:00] so much from different people’s experiences. Um. An [01:14:05] and like the guys. It’s funny because you [01:14:10] can it’s such a deep thing. Some of the guys I work with, I’ve worked with some of the toughest men in the country, [01:14:15] actually. You’ve had books written about them and we’ve sat there holding hands, crying, [01:14:20] connecting on a level that is, it takes you. I used to think crime [01:14:25] was weak. I was always told crime. Crime was weak. I remember one day I crashed my motorbike. Um, [01:14:30] it’s probably about 13, and I took all the skin off the whole side of my body, and. And my dad was called. [01:14:35] He came over. And I was clearly in shock because I’d been sick and stuff. And he’s like, pull [01:14:40] yourself together, get up, get that bike home and shower you off.

Speaker1: And I remember picking the stuff [01:14:45] off in the shower thinking, you know, it’s not not really a bit of compassion. [01:14:50] We won’t go, go mess. Um, but that’s how he was brought up. And that’s stood [01:14:55] me in good, because I’ve learned from that how to be compassionate, [01:15:00] especially with my girls. Um, but going back to the space, [01:15:05] it really comes down from your upbringing you need to have. It’s so difficult because everyone’s [01:15:10] different. But if you can find someone stable around you. So my idols when I was growing up [01:15:15] was my grandfather, my mum’s father, who who, um, was [01:15:20] the only person left in his bomb disposal unit. And, um, [01:15:25] he, he was a really brave man. Never spoke about the war and losing. [01:15:30] He lost loads of his brothers and they got bombed out in the war and stuff like [01:15:35] that. But he was always a smart, kind, strong man. There’s a difference between [01:15:40] being a masculine man or being a misogynist or someone who’s [01:15:45] trying to show aggression or whatever, because that’s not true. A masculine man, I believe, [01:15:50] is someone who is mentally, emotionally stable, has a protective [01:15:55] side to them. Um, like a lion. If it needs to go [01:16:00] and do something, it can, but generally is pretty calm.

Speaker1: Um, and [01:16:05] there are people that are making space online because, I mean, it’s [01:16:10] a deep subject. But if you look at people like around the country, the government, they’re not exactly being showing you exactly [01:16:15] how to be. So you’re looking at leaders of the country acting a certain way, [01:16:20] and that’s not helpful. Then you’ve got some people on Instagram that are trying to prove something [01:16:25] to themselves or sell something or market it. That’s not true either. It is difficult. [01:16:30] I always say to guys, a stable place, usually [01:16:35] for young men, is some something to do with sports, right? Even if you’re not a sportsman, join [01:16:40] a club of some sort. Because usually if you’re in a martial art, there’s a discipline. If [01:16:45] you’re in boxing, there’s a discipline. If you’re in swimming, there’s a discipline, tennis, [01:16:50] there’s a discipline. And you’ll find stability within doing something or finding [01:16:55] something. I always think that because otherwise you’re going to be on a street corner, or you might just be hanging [01:17:00] out in your castle, wherever it is, I don’t know, but if you can find some stability [01:17:05] around you, outside of your circle, if that’s not stable, then that’s [01:17:10] a good place to start.

Speaker4: You know? Yeah. Amazing. I love the.

Speaker3: Charity that you’re. [01:17:15]

Speaker4: Involved with.

Speaker3: To do with this.

Speaker1: Yeah. So our charity, uh, what’s it called? [01:17:20] It’s called Stride Foundation UK. Amazing grassroots. Federico and I [01:17:25] sat down. And your wife. Yes. And, uh, she was talking about, [01:17:30] um, perspective of what do people do if they have drink problems or [01:17:35] drug problems, where do they go? And we had this whole discussion at the time. If you [01:17:40] couldn’t afford to go into treatment or you didn’t want to go into 12 step program, what do you do? [01:17:45] So you could go and get a detox or something like that, um, [01:17:50] in the NHS, and then you go home and you’re left with yourself. The whole point is about yourself. Mm. So [01:17:55] we decided to set something up where we could help [01:18:00] people get therapy, put into treatment or get coaching. So we did [01:18:05] that and it’s kind of it. We set it up. We did a charity day at Jonathan Palmer [01:18:10] Racetrack, which was amazing. We did it with the Amy Winehouse Foundation, which was great. Um, [01:18:15] and then we had kids and then life got involved. So it became myself [01:18:20] just networking. And I was at a film premiere once, for example. [01:18:25] And, um, so a very important agent came over to me and whispered, [01:18:30] I’ve Sancho’s got a problem. Can you talk to them? It was famous actor, so [01:18:35] I talked to them and helped them out. So it became a real networking thing for me, kind of behind the scenes. [01:18:40]

Speaker1: And the only reason I came out and talked about addiction in the first place, because I, um, a newspaper [01:18:45] group that we finished in court a few years back had published, um, [01:18:50] articles about my addiction problems. Um, so otherwise no one would never know. But [01:18:55] actually now it’s great because I’ve got a platform to help others from. So [01:19:00] we now are doing a pilot program where we’ve got ex, [01:19:05] um, addicts recovering and I’m 20. I haven’t drunk for 20 years, I’m 20 years sober. So I’ve [01:19:10] lived sobriety as long as I was when I was partying, because a lot of people come in three [01:19:15] months, two months, start telling everyone how to do it and what to do. I think you have to live it for [01:19:20] a while. Um, so I’ve lived all of that for a while, and I went back into modelling and lived that one [01:19:25] sober, which is amazing. Um, so what I do is [01:19:30] we’ve got, sorry, we’ve got a school program where we go and do 45 minute talks. [01:19:35] Q and A after, if anybody has generally have has an issue or they have an [01:19:40] issue with a parent, we can give them a therapist to [01:19:45] which we will fund for them to have therapy and or something, or coaching or [01:19:50] mentoring or whatever. So that’s what we’re putting in place. It’s very small. We’re doing it small wasn’t to change the world. [01:19:55]

Speaker1: What I found that people that helped me really focussed [01:20:00] on me and moved me through the places and helped me, I needed to go and answer all the questions I needed. So we focussed. [01:20:05] We put a guy in 19 months ago that was in a very, [01:20:10] very bad way, um, a 52 year old man. Um, I actually knew him years ago. [01:20:15] And when we put him into treatment, he’d had a stroke, a brain stem stroke, which [01:20:20] is really bad. Survived it. Um, when he came out, we [01:20:25] smothered him with people that I know that have worked in sobriety and [01:20:30] stuff, and. He’s emotional. He’s not. He’s now 19 [01:20:35] months clean, sober. He’s got his life back. He’s really good. He helps other people. So [01:20:40] it’s like dropping a penny or a stone into a pool. The ripple effect is positive, least [01:20:45] to 15, 20 people around you. So we wanted to focus on people rather [01:20:50] than lots of people. So we’re doing the the school program now, um, [01:20:55] which is great. And um, after after we’re going to run it for six [01:21:00] months and see what the real feedback is and what the impact is, because when I was at school, [01:21:05] you’d get a policeman come in with a suitcase saying, if you take that, you’ll die. If you take that, I’ll [01:21:10] die. And that was it.

Speaker3: I visited my school to.

Speaker1: The problem with that is if you if you [01:21:15] have a joint or something, sneakily, you go, well, I didn’t die from that. It’s okay, I can.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: So sort of honest [01:21:20] conversation isn’t it, that says, look, there’s this the fun element. There’s the amount of risk [01:21:25] we do in our youth. None of that was was talked about, was it?

Speaker1: No. It was black and white. It was [01:21:30] fear. It was fear stuff.

Speaker3: I mean, let’s face it, there was a it’s fun getting off [01:21:35] your face, right? It’s you have to admit that, I mean, not that you would know.

Speaker2: Never, [01:21:40] never done it. So I wouldn’t even know, you know.

Speaker3: Well, what he’s talking [01:21:45] about is what I’m saying. Yeah. I mean, the.

Speaker1: Fun thing, really, when you think about it, what is the actual fun thing if you [01:21:50] want to be boring? In particular about it is, is that you don’t have to be yourself. Yeah. And if [01:21:55] you think about the old, uh, sentence, which people used to say was I was out [01:22:00] of my mind last night, I was out of my head. It’s because you don’t like being in it. Yeah.

Speaker4: If you find [01:22:05] a.

Speaker1: Place like what you said. I like dancing. Like you like being there. It’s a great place [01:22:10] to be. So that’s the bit that needs to be addressed.

Speaker4: Addressed?

Speaker2: Yeah, 100%. [01:22:15] Paul, this has been such an amazing, insightful conversation. I feel like I talked to you for hours and [01:22:20] it’s I feel really privileged that you’ve come on here. And, you know, I definitely encourage anyone that does [01:22:25] want to speak to Paul. You know, he has had one of the most inspiring career paths [01:22:30] and, you know, has become one of, you know, the most amazing coaches and amazing human [01:22:35] beings. So thank you so, so much for joining us today. We’ve really enjoyed it.

Speaker3: One final [01:22:40] question. If you don’t mind, go on. Payman. If your daughters said they want to be models, [01:22:45] would you give them your blessing? Um.

Speaker1: After [01:22:50] university, after they got their studies, and if they are stable young ladies, [01:22:55] then yes, I would not before they’ve matured enough to know themselves now.

Speaker3: But [01:23:00] the classic thing is they get classic thing.

Speaker4: They get classic.

Speaker2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker3: So no, no to that. You’re [01:23:05] saying.

Speaker1: Um, it depends. It completely depends on circumstances and what job? One of my oldest [01:23:10] ones did do a little modelling job because it was with Federica, my [01:23:15] wife, and, um, I knew all the group and it was great. And it was a healthy, fun [01:23:20] shoot. So yeah, that’s that’s different.

Speaker2: Thank you so much, Paul.

Speaker4: Thank you so.

Speaker3: Much. Thank you.

Speaker4: Very much. [01:23:25]

Speaker1: Mindset and mindset shift, which is a huge part of self leadership. You’ve [00:00:05] got to be able to understand that, because a lot of what the habits that are already set in us is [00:00:10] from experience and from previous beliefs, right? And the good thing [00:00:15] is the brain is mouldable and that there are strategies on how you can change [00:00:20] that mindset and make that shift. But look, I mean payment, you have [00:00:25] to realise that you want the change first, right? You have to realise, [00:00:30] you know, where is it you want to go, what kind of life do you really want to live? [00:00:35] Right? And once you have that set in stone, then you’re ready [00:00:40] to then use all the strategies from self leadership, create that mindset change. [00:00:45] And then it’s all about intentionality, accountability, responsibility [00:00:50] and then moving on from there.

Speaker2: This [00:00:55] is Dental Leaders, the [00:01:00] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [00:01:05] Your hosts Payman [00:01:10] Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to [00:01:15] welcome Doctor Sarika Shah onto the podcast. Sarika is the principal at [00:01:20] platinum Dental care, which is one of the most beautiful practices I’ve ever been to. [00:01:25] But not not only from the way it looks, but from the way it runs. A happy team, [00:01:30] lots of patients. Very, very impressive place in the Docklands. [00:01:35] Sarika is also now on a journey of self-development. [00:01:40] And looking at your poster, you guys, I see they’re becoming more and more inspirational [00:01:45] as as we go, and I’m really keen to get into that story as well. Welcome to the podcast. [00:01:50]

Speaker1: Thank you so much and it’s such a pleasure to be here today. So thank you for having me. [00:01:55]

Speaker4: Welcome to Rekha. And certainly from my point of view, I guess because my head’s in that [00:02:00] space, right? And it goes in and out of that space. Right. This personal development, self-help, wanting [00:02:05] to be the best version of you. And then, you know, whenever I come across [00:02:10] your stories or your posts and things like that, you’re definitely putting out there [00:02:15] a lot of positivity. But before we get into that, I want to [00:02:20] take us right back to the beginning. Your childhood, your upbringing, where you were born, [00:02:25] what that was like parents strict, not non strict. We were [00:02:30] really, really studious person to take us. Take us back to your upbringing. Give us your earliest [00:02:35] memories of what childhood was like.

Speaker1: Brilliant. Well, I [00:02:40] was very privileged to have grown up in Kenya with a very [00:02:45] stable family background, and it was just such a wonderful [00:02:50] place to grow up, you know, great weather, a lot of outdoors and a close knit [00:02:55] family. And I would also say that I think I’m very grateful [00:03:00] for the privileged upbringing that I’ve had as well. I have a lot of happy [00:03:05] childhood memories from my education, from my school days, as well [00:03:10] as being at home. And in terms of my upbringing, I’d say that [00:03:15] my parents weren’t very strict. I mean, they created boundaries [00:03:20] at home, and they ensured that we grew up with really good values [00:03:25] and that, you know, especially valuing our education. I think that was [00:03:30] really important to them because they worked so hard to be able to give us our education. [00:03:35] And I remember my dad saying to me that, you know, out of everything in this world, [00:03:40] the one thing I can give you is your education. So [00:03:45] had a fantastic childhood until the age of 16 when I finished my GCSEs, [00:03:50] and then I moved to the UK and I spent my last two years of [00:03:55] sixth form in a boarding school in Kent, which was [00:04:00] very interesting because it was so different. I was completely ripped away from [00:04:05] my comfort zone, and I was suddenly forced to be in an environment [00:04:10] where I had to grow up really quickly. This was a country that I [00:04:15] never. I’d been to England once in my life before, so it was in a country that I’d lived in [00:04:20] before. The weather was so different and I was almost forced to [00:04:25] make new friendships, new relationships. And I’d probably say [00:04:30] that that was the first time I remember being or starting [00:04:35] my self-development journey. And that was from the age of 16, because I was put [00:04:40] in this position where I had to really learn and grow up [00:04:45] at such a fast pace and become independent.

Speaker4: Any siblings? Sarika, did [00:04:50] you did you come with brother or sister or anything like that? Were you only child? What was the.

Speaker1: Yeah [00:04:55] so.

Speaker4: Situation. I have a younger brother.

Speaker1: There’s about a five and a half years difference [00:05:00] between us. Um, but when I moved to the UK, I was I was on my own. I [00:05:05] didn’t have a lot of close family in London, so it was. It was completely starting [00:05:10] from scratch for me. It was a new phase of my life and one that I am so [00:05:15] appreciative of because I feel that that was when I started [00:05:20] really learning who I was and, you know, understanding [00:05:25] a sense of self. And I think it really began if I reflect, that’s how it began that early on for me. [00:05:30]

Speaker4: And and can you remember the time that your parents said, [00:05:35] we’re going to send you to the UK? Like, like, how did that come about? And [00:05:40] what was your what was going through your mind at the time or, or was it always going [00:05:45] to happen anyway?

Speaker1: Yeah. You know, I think my parents are quite intuitive in that sense because [00:05:50] they saw that, almost saw that I wanted and needed more [00:05:55] from what my education and what my environment was giving me then. And [00:06:00] my uncle had been to the school many, many years ago. Uh, and my mum said [00:06:05] to me, I remember her having a conversation. She said. Well, you know, this is an option for you. And at [00:06:10] that time, I was actually instead of A levels that my school was providing, I was actually looking at [00:06:15] doing the International Baccalaureate. And, and I remember my mom saying to me that, you [00:06:20] know, this could be fantastic and would you be up for this? And I just thought, [00:06:25] so scary, but yet so exciting. And I will never forget that [00:06:30] emotion and the feeling that I had sitting at that dining table is such a distinct memory in my life [00:06:35] and thinking that, wow, like what a huge opportunity this could, [00:06:40] this could be so incredible for me. I’m so I’m so [00:06:45] happy that I made that choice. And I’m so I’m so over the moon at that time. I think looking [00:06:50] back, I’m so happy that my parents supported me through that as well, you know, and [00:06:55] sent me and allowed me to go through this next phase of my life at that point.

Speaker3: Circa [00:07:00] as a as a person of your stature, let’s say, in Kenya, [00:07:05] if, let’s say in that sliding doors moment, you hadn’t decided to go, have [00:07:10] you reflected on where you would be now and who you would be? And.

Speaker1: Uh, [00:07:15] I feel that. I feel that whatever has [00:07:20] happened in terms of my life journey and who I am would [00:07:25] still have happened, but maybe not have happened as quickly, because I think [00:07:30] that by going abroad at such a young age, when I was 16 [00:07:35] and really coming out of my comfort zone, everything I had known wasn’t [00:07:40] had disappeared. And and like I said, it made [00:07:45] me grow up really quickly. But I think that, you know, I’ve always been someone that [00:07:50] is a little bit spiritual that wants to learn and grow and had [00:07:55] ambition and wanted to just take on all these challenges. [00:08:00] I think that’s within me, you know? So I think that if [00:08:05] the situation had been the other way around and I’d stayed in Kenya, my life would have been different [00:08:10] and I think I would have just been on this path. But a little bit later.

Speaker3: Do [00:08:15] you remember dentistry coming into the equation? At what age that was?

Speaker1: Absolutely. [00:08:20] So do you know that, um, dentistry [00:08:25] for me was probably one of the first autonomous [00:08:30] decisions that I made in my life, and I’ve never regretted [00:08:35] it when I was in boarding school. You know, all my family, they’ve all [00:08:40] got a business background. So it was almost like. It was almost like it was [00:08:45] expected of me to go in that direction. And then I realised when I was, [00:08:50] you know, when I was choosing my subjects and when I was sitting my exams, that I started to understand [00:08:55] and reflect on what I was good at and what I wasn’t good at. And I remember [00:09:00] having a conversation with my teachers and my parents. Remember, this was this was like 25 years [00:09:05] ago, right? There was, um, there was no WhatsApp. There was this calling scratch card [00:09:10] in, in the telephone booth. Um, and, you know, my parents weren’t there, [00:09:15] so I wasn’t really influenced in that sense directly, you know, by [00:09:20] by them and what they thought about career choices at the time. So [00:09:25] at this time I thought, well, great, I’ve got the opportunity to choose exactly what [00:09:30] I wanted to do. And it suddenly transitioned from moving from [00:09:35] like, almost like a business management, that type of degree to then me having a conversation. [00:09:40] Well, I’m really good at science and I’m a trained Indian classical dancer. I [00:09:45] was a really good artist and I thought, well, I’ve got the dexterity skills, so what could I [00:09:50] what could I do that where I could use my skills? And [00:09:55] really kind of, you know, move in that direction where [00:10:00] I could really, you know, use them to kind of be the best person [00:10:05] or have the best career and be happy and fulfilled.

Speaker1: So I was almost thinking like this, [00:10:10] um, around that time and, you know, it transitioned from, I don’t want to do [00:10:15] medicine to, you know, what about optometry or pharmacy as as typical Asian parents [00:10:20] might think at the time. And then, um, and then I said, well, do you know what? Well, [00:10:25] what about dentistry? And I knew of two girls that I knew from, from Kenya who were in [00:10:30] their fourth year of dentistry. And I thought, well, that would be a fantastic career. And I [00:10:35] looked into it a little bit more work shadowed at the dentists on the high street. And I remember, [00:10:40] you know, going to my parents well, right. I’ve decided I want to do dentistry. And I remember [00:10:45] that they said, well, it’s really difficult. Do you think you’re going to be able to do it? [00:10:50] It’s a really it’s a really hard degree, like almost like they didn’t believe that I [00:10:55] was smart enough, um, to do dentistry, but I stuck by it. [00:11:00] I changed my Ucas form right at, you know, at the last minute. And [00:11:05] I’m really proud. I’ve never regretted it in my life. And I’m really proud because I’m so passionate about [00:11:10] dentistry.

Speaker3: What did you change it from? What were you doing just before dentistry?

Speaker1: It was like [00:11:15] a business.

Speaker3: Things.

Speaker1: Business studies and business management, that type of degree. And then you know [00:11:20] that that initial phase of of choosing. But there was so much confusion and I’m glad [00:11:25] that I self reflected, understood what my strengths were, and then [00:11:30] made a decision based on that.

Speaker3: And then you studied in Manchester?

Speaker1: I did, [00:11:35] I went to the University of Manchester. And which was [00:11:40] absolutely brilliant. And it’s such a great mix of a city and a campus university [00:11:45] and made some fantastic friends. And we were such a small cohort. And I think [00:11:50] that that made a huge difference, um, where being a small cohort, each [00:11:55] of us had the opportunity to shine in our own way. And that was fantastic [00:12:00] for confidence building. But not only that, we had a lot of attention, you know, [00:12:05] from our tutors, it was also a problem based learning at the time. I remember that it was a new [00:12:10] system that they had introduced. Um, and I’d obviously come from the International Baccalaureate, [00:12:15] um, sixth form. So I was used to kind of going and a lot [00:12:20] of self-study and understanding, well, this is a problem and how do we solve it? And I thought [00:12:25] that it’s just a nice way to transition from International Baccalaureate to problem [00:12:30] based learning was the system I understood. But again, looking back like what fantastic [00:12:35] life skills that gives you as well that this is a problem, let’s analyse it. And now [00:12:40] let’s treatment plan or let’s just plan what the outcome has to be, or strategize [00:12:45] how we need to go from here. So not only did that really help when I, [00:12:50] um, started working as a dentist, but it also helped in life in general.

Speaker3: What [00:12:55] were you like in Manchester?

Speaker1: Oh, you’re gonna have to. I can’t give you all my secrets. [00:13:00] Um. Come on. But, um, you know, the two [00:13:05] years of independence from being at boarding school, I. I had the confidence, um, [00:13:10] I came in, and I was just ready to live life. I think I’m a [00:13:15] work hard, party hard girl, and I don’t think that’s ever died. I think that’s still there. That’s [00:13:20] the way you have to live life, you know? Um, make every moment count. [00:13:25] Uh, so, um, loved my social life at Manchester. Um, loved [00:13:30] to go out. But at the same time, I really, really enjoyed my [00:13:35] course. I enjoyed all the biological aspects of all of it, that biology side [00:13:40] and the first two years. And then I was so excited to get into the clinical years as well. So [00:13:45] it was almost like.

Speaker3: It’s not a common story. Uh, it’s [00:13:50] like it’s a lot of people are overwhelmed by the course.

Speaker1: Do you know what? [00:13:55]

Speaker3: Do you not feel that? Um.

Speaker1: I wouldn’t say overwhelmed because I think that, [00:14:00] you know, I’d been in a really competitive school, you know, until GCSEs. Then [00:14:05] I went into another competitive school on, on my own. So I guess in that sense, I wasn’t [00:14:10] overwhelmed. You know, I’d left home already. I’d already started to experience that. So [00:14:15] for me, it was. Yes, it’s another challenge. Um, bring it on. And yes, [00:14:20] you know what? Plus plus that Kenyan upbringing.

Speaker3: Right. That Kenyan upbringing [00:14:25] is like gold. I mean, when I think about the number of people who’ve sat here in front of us, I mean, [00:14:30] Prav your family as well, right? But from East Africa. Yeah. Drew [00:14:35] Vishal Shah, my favourite, my favourite episode of them all, by the way. So many, so [00:14:40] many people. That Kenyan upbringing is different. It’s something about that Kenyan upbringing can do part [00:14:45] of it and the community part of it.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think community [00:14:50] friends, the environment that you’re growing up in is, I think very [00:14:55] different. And I think environment is not people that always impact you. It’s also the environment [00:15:00] as well. And I think that moulds you, that moulds your mindset and the experiences that you have moulds your mindset. [00:15:05]

Speaker4: Sarika, I’m curious about um, so you just spoke about like you go from [00:15:10] boarding school to uni and now you can let your hair down, right? And let’s call it freedom. [00:15:15] Let’s, let’s call the word freedom. Right. But you went from Kenya to Kent and from [00:15:20] Kenya to Kent. They must have been a degree of right I can let loose now. Right. [00:15:25] Because I’m not under my parents watch or whatever, or it’s different. Or [00:15:30] the other thing is that, you know, I don’t know what your life was like in Kenya, but I’m guessing because [00:15:35] your family could afford to send you to Kent, that you had a pretty good life in Kenya, right? That [00:15:40] everything was taken care of, things were done for you, etc., etc. then you moved to [00:15:45] Kent and now it’s, hey, I’ve got to fend for myself, right? I’ve got to grow up. And when [00:15:50] you said that, that sort of reminded me of me going to uni for the first time and having to do [00:15:55] my own thing, right. So you grew up a lot quicker than I did exactly [00:16:00] at the point in your life, if that makes sense, because we’re forced to do that, right? [00:16:05] Yeah. But then there was another level of growing up when you went to went to what was just just talk me [00:16:10] through, like what was going through your mind then at that point when you moved from Kenya [00:16:15] to Kent, maybe the difference in culture or whatever and the growing up you did, [00:16:20] but then what was holding you back in Kent that allowed you to let loose in Manchester? What [00:16:25] what what.

Speaker3: Being a teenager?

Speaker1: Well, this is it, right? I think that growing up in [00:16:30] Kenya, um, it was a privilege. Also a sheltered upbringing. [00:16:35] Right. And I think, again, being in a boarding school. Environment. You’re still [00:16:40] sheltered, right? Um, but really, when you go to university, [00:16:45] you’re truly independent. You’re truly independent. There are certain expectations. [00:16:50] They definitely were for me because I was an international student in terms of education [00:16:55] and grades. But at the same time, it was the time where I started [00:17:00] to think, well, this is my life now. I get to make the decisions. [00:17:05] I get to choose, uh, and I can, I will, I can, [00:17:10] I’ll probably make mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes. And I also had some [00:17:15] wonderful times and incredible memories. And I feel that what [00:17:20] happens is that from the age of from the time you’re born until you’re 20 and [00:17:25] is the time when you don’t, you know, you don’t have that. You’re not born with a sense of self that normally [00:17:30] starts from the age of 0 to 3, and then until the age of 20 is when people. [00:17:35] So the people closest to you can influence and [00:17:40] impact the way you are and the way you think and the decisions you make from [00:17:45] the age of 20 onwards is when you start [00:17:50] to take control of your life, or can decide if you want to start taking control of your, you know you’re [00:17:55] under, you’re less under the influence of other people. And that’s when you start to [00:18:00] truly become independent. That’s when you start to take more responsibilities. [00:18:05] That’s when you have to start taking accountability for your actions. And [00:18:10] that’s when you know you really have the power of choice. It’s in your hands [00:18:15] on how you dictate your life and where you want to go from there.

Speaker3: Take us through the professional journey [00:18:20] after that. So you qualified. Where did you work first and then when did you get [00:18:25] into the idea of, you know, private dentistry okay. Quality.

Speaker1: So what a story here, [00:18:30] right. So I was an international student and that meant that [00:18:35] I really, really had to fight for a job. And at this time I didn’t want to go back to Kenya. [00:18:40] I wanted to stay in the UK and get my experience. So I don’t know if you remember Payman, [00:18:45] but at the time it was all it was about job shops, right? The country was was all split up into [00:18:50] deaneries and and every deanery had a job shop. So all the trainers would come [00:18:55] to this job shop and it was an opportunity for you to meet them. They might do a little mini interview at the [00:19:00] time, and I think I applied to every single deanery. And [00:19:05] I remember like printing all these CVS and cover letters, um, [00:19:10] for, oh my gosh, I think I applied to over 100, 120 jobs [00:19:15] at the time. And this is two months before my final exams. Right? And I remember [00:19:20] gallivanting around the country trying to go for interviews, and it was really [00:19:25] it was so chaotic. It was it was the first time I think I really felt stressed because, [00:19:30] you know, passing your exams is one thing. Uh, it’s kind of in my control. [00:19:35] But getting a job was partially in my control. And, and at the time, I think it’s a lot [00:19:40] fairer. I think the system now is, is a lot fairer. But at the time, you know, trainers, they [00:19:45] kind of already knew in their mind who they wanted, but they almost had to like interview people [00:19:50] just to show they were interviewing people.

Speaker1: Um, I remember going for, you know, travelling [00:19:55] from Manchester all the way down to the, to the, to the south coast. And it took me eight [00:20:00] hours. Um, and it cost, it cost me money. I only had a budget like a strict budget [00:20:05] then spent. So it cost me money going all the way down there. But wow, what a life lesson. [00:20:10] And I basically just ended up in East Anglia. Um, I was at the job [00:20:15] shop then, uh, tired because I was wearing like five inch heels, [00:20:20] which I was known for at the time, and I just took a rest and I thought, okay, I’m just going to go [00:20:25] to the bar and have a drink. And there was a man there having a beer, and we just [00:20:30] started talking and he said, well, yeah, I’m actually, um, a partner of a practice, [00:20:35] um, in Norwich, and I’m looking for a VC. [00:20:40] And we ended up just chatting, connecting, and he invited me to come and have a look at [00:20:45] the practice a few days later. And that was it. We signed, uh, the what was it, the [00:20:50] letter of intent at the time in a pub. And that’s how it happened. That’s how I [00:20:55] got my job.

Speaker3: Why was it more difficult for a foreign student [00:21:00] to get a job? Was it just a I mean, yeah, you feel like [00:21:05] that people thought that you can’t do the communication piece as well?

Speaker1: No. Um, [00:21:10] at the time, the rule was that the priority has to go to, uh, UK [00:21:15] born citizen.

Speaker3: Right? Oh I see, yes yes yes yes yes.

Speaker1: So we weren’t prioritised.

Speaker3: Okay. [00:21:20] So then that practice was mixed or what must be.

Speaker1: So it [00:21:25] was it was mostly an NHS practice. Um, it was um, it was [00:21:30] a group of practices that was owned by four partners, and there was a primary [00:21:35] partner and then three other partners, and they had 13 practices in and around Norwich. [00:21:40] Wow. Yeah. And then that transition. So it was all NHS. And then [00:21:45] what they did was they opened up later on. I think I was there for seven years by the way. [00:21:50] Um, but probably later on when I was kind of done my four years, they’d [00:21:55] opened up a few private practices, which I then had the opportunity to work in because I was doing my Masters [00:22:00] in restorative at the same time. So they allowed me to work in their private practice as well, which was great experience. [00:22:05]

Speaker3: So I can imagine the clinical lessons you were learning at these [00:22:10] times. Because, you know, the early days, we all go through those, you know, slow and then speed up, [00:22:15] make some mistakes, can’t talk all the things that people people suffer. But what about [00:22:20] the sort of business lessons you learned there? Because there must have been a load.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. [00:22:25] So do you know what let’s let’s talk about, [00:22:30] you know, business and finance because everyone. It’s something you hear so [00:22:35] commonly that we’re taught how to be dentists and be good clinically, [00:22:40] but we’re not actually taught the business or the finance skills at university. Right? [00:22:45] Um, so. When I came into, [00:22:50] you know, after I’d done my bit and I was an associate again, it was like being at the [00:22:55] deep end when it came to business and understanding hourly rate. I remember [00:23:00] that was the first time that, uh, my trainer, who was then mentoring me as well, [00:23:05] spoke about, okay, you’ve got to start thinking of your hourly rates and, you know, you’ve got to start, [00:23:10] you know, you’ve got to hire an accountant. And it’s suddenly about taxes and, you [00:23:15] know, savings and pension fund and, and all these things that I’d never heard of before. [00:23:20] And. I think that the dialogue [00:23:25] that I’d had in my head until then was that this is really overwhelming, [00:23:30] because I’m not good with money. Okay. And if I look at my [00:23:35] relationship with money prior to that is that I had actually grown up in [00:23:40] a household where my father was a primary earner. [00:23:45] And he managed most of the money in the family. [00:23:50] So talking and discussing about managing money was never really [00:23:55] done when I was young. And then when I left for boarding school, I remember [00:24:00] him, you know, they were dropping me off and they said, oh gosh, we need to open a bank account for you. Remember [00:24:05] walking into HSBC and them opening a bank account, giving me a bank card? And again, it was like almost [00:24:10] given to me.

Speaker1: And here are some cheques. You just need to, you know, deposit a check every [00:24:15] month and that’s your budget. And again, you know, and I don’t think it was their intention, [00:24:20] um, not to teach me this, but it was almost like I [00:24:25] had to learn about managing money on my own. So [00:24:30] in terms of business skills, at the practice that I worked in, I got [00:24:35] to see how multiple practices were being run. I got [00:24:40] to see how staff were being managed, and I got to see how [00:24:45] budgets were used. Um, in terms of buying stock and, you know, how [00:24:50] equipment was managed because a lot of us dentists, we were working in 2 or 3 different practices [00:24:55] within the group. So we were carrying all our equipment. And we also had like a little tool [00:25:00] kit in case something broke down. We were given training on how to fix, you know, the little [00:25:05] thing here or there. Yeah, it was fantastic. Um, and I’ll never forget that because [00:25:10] I remember then transitioning to become an associate. And if something broke down, I wouldn’t [00:25:15] be like, oh my gosh, help me. I don’t know what’s going on here. I’d almost want to, you know, [00:25:20] try to figure out what was happening, um, and try to fix it myself if I could, [00:25:25] you know, at the time. So. I think that in terms of business [00:25:30] skills, I learned quite a few things. On reflection.

Speaker4: Sarika. [00:25:35] A lot of, um, a lot of, shall we say, associate associates [00:25:40] approached me and say, hey, Prav, I want to open my own practice now. Yeah. [00:25:45] And there’s two main reasons that they cite, and it’s really interesting that they say that [00:25:50] you’ll be able to speak from the lens of a practice owner now, but they say I’m giving away [00:25:55] 55% of my income to the practice. Right? [00:26:00] I want to keep 100% of my income. So reason one why they want to open a practice, [00:26:05] right? And reason two, which comes up a lot, is the patient journey [00:26:10] is not how I would like to treat patients. They do this wrong, [00:26:15] they do this wrong. And and I’m restricted with respect to how I can treat the patient [00:26:20] or what the journey is. And they want to create this new journey for the patient and [00:26:25] from a, from a blank canvas. And so practice ownership becomes the only thing [00:26:30] to do. Yeah. Out of curiosity in that experience, in your associate experience, [00:26:35] was there anything patient journey related where you thought, do you know what I want [00:26:40] to do this different? And what were those things?

Speaker1: Absolutely. I [00:26:45] think everyone has different experiences when they work as an associates. And [00:26:50] you come at some point, you come to this realisation of what [00:26:55] kind of dentist do you want to want to be? And I think it starts off from there. [00:27:00] Okay. What kind of dentist do you want to be? And I think that’s really powerful, by the way, [00:27:05] when someone does get to that point, and when I was working [00:27:10] as an associate, there were so many things that I saw in terms of management, [00:27:15] in terms of patient journey, in terms of the care that I wanted to give patients. Right. [00:27:20] And and that, you know, Interlinks with the type of clinical dentistry that I was doing as [00:27:25] well. But you’re so naive at that time because you don’t actually you’re [00:27:30] not actually managing your staff. You’re not actually paying for things. You don’t actually [00:27:35] know the costs of things right at the time. You have all these hopes and dreams [00:27:40] and desires and you think, well, okay, in order to get from A to B and really [00:27:45] kind of practice the dentistry, I want to practice and give that patient journey and the patient care that I [00:27:50] want to give, the only way forward is to open a practice. But [00:27:55] then the hard lessons are in front of you, and they’re the challenges that you then have to face [00:28:00] that it’s not it’s not that easy. It’s not that easy to develop [00:28:05] a patient journey that’s flawless. It’s not that easy to give 100% patient care every [00:28:10] single time because the entire team is involved, not just you, and you have to manage everyone [00:28:15] else around it. And then of course, things cost money. So if you want your patients [00:28:20] to experience a really good journey. And you know you want your staff to be happy. [00:28:25] Um, yes. You have to bring things like create the culture and the value. [00:28:30] Uh, you know, values and things like that, which I’m very pro, by the way, and I love doing with [00:28:35] my team. But at the same time, it costs money. It takes time. [00:28:40] And, you know, it’s it’s a big learning curve, a steep learning curve.

Speaker4: And [00:28:45] so what part specifically of the patient journey during your [00:28:50] time as a say a non principal or non practice owner. [00:28:55] Were you passionate about that you wanted to change. Do you know what that [00:29:00] weren’t right. And have you put them right now or have you struck. It sounds like you’ve [00:29:05] struggled to put them right as everyone does because we paint this ideal of what it should be. But then [00:29:10] the reality kicks in of team management and all the rest of it. You’ve alluded to [00:29:15] but but what specifically? I’m really curious about that, because the dentist who I speak to have [00:29:20] different ideals and they’re not always the same. So I’m just wondering what yours yours were.

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:29:25] absolutely. And to be honest with you, it was part of my business plan was to have [00:29:30] that that full flow from beginning to end of the patient journey. [00:29:35] And I think that when there is a break in that, then that’s when [00:29:40] it starts to affect patient journey and patient care. So what I realised, my experience is working as an associate, [00:29:45] was that often receptionists would pick up the phone and adhere their, their tone [00:29:50] and the way they were speaking to patients wasn’t very welcoming. I would then do everything [00:29:55] I could bend over backwards to give them the best care, and sometimes then there wasn’t great [00:30:00] aftercare, you know? Again, phone call, check out, check in. You know, all [00:30:05] of that just wasn’t done the way I, I thought it should be done. And [00:30:10] so was actually part of my business plan is patient journey and patient care is is at the core [00:30:15] of everything that I want my practice to be about. Um, and therefore everyone [00:30:20] is trained on that from day dot. Right. And there is continuous [00:30:25] training on that as we move forward. It’s always something that we talk about. It’s always [00:30:30] something that we prioritise as almost being the USP [00:30:35] in our practice as well. And honestly, our practice has grown organically. [00:30:40]

Speaker1: You know, we’ve hardly had to do huge amounts of marketing and marketing, um, huge [00:30:45] amounts of advertisement. And it’s down to building our reputation, you know, it’s just [00:30:50] down to trying to understand what is it that patients want, what is it they need? And incorporating it in the patient [00:30:55] journey. People think patient journey is just a line from A to B. It’s not. It’s so [00:31:00] much more complex than that. There’s so much more that you have to add along the way. So [00:31:05] then and then you have to refine everything as you’re going along the way, right? And you have to [00:31:10] almost be accountable for everything, um, along the way as well. And then do that constant training. So [00:31:15] not only is it being sustained, you’re getting better and better and better [00:31:20] at it. Right. Um, and it’s again down to systems and processes in the practice. [00:31:25] It’s um, it’s down to having, uh, certain standards. So standardising [00:31:30] that if someone came to see me and I give them a particular [00:31:35] service, if they went to see one of my associates, they’re getting exactly the same service. It’s not like I went to see the principal [00:31:40] of the practice. It’s like I went to see someone at this practice, and it was an incredible. [00:31:45]

Speaker4: And then at what point did Rishi come in? At what point did. Because [00:31:50] Rishi, for those who don’t know, Rishi is your your your husband and your, shall [00:31:55] we say, business partner, but he runs the business with you and um. Yeah, I’ve had the I’ve had the privilege [00:32:00] of obviously working with you guys and having lengthy conversations both with Rishi and yourself. [00:32:05] And I think certainly for me, that the more successful [00:32:10] practices that I work with are those that have family involved, right? [00:32:15] It can also cause problems as well. I’ve seen I’ve seen that too. Right. But actually having [00:32:20] that person on board that you can give 100% trust to and you’ve both got the same [00:32:25] vision. So tell us about when Rishi came into your life. Um, and then [00:32:30] how that evolved in, in the, in the practice. Did you, did you buy it together? [00:32:35] Did he come along later? What was the chronology of all of that? And what does Rishi do in [00:32:40] the practice? Sure.

Speaker1: So when I was an associate and I was reflecting back and I [00:32:45] wanted to buy the practice that that seed was planted, okay, I knew that I wanted to go in a different direction. [00:32:50] My brother, who’s five years younger than me, was also a dentist, and [00:32:55] I remember having a conversation. He said, look, you know, we’re both dentists. It only makes sense that we do this together. [00:33:00] My brother lived in Manchester at the time, okay, and we lived in London, [00:33:05] so there was obviously that distance and we started the journey. We started looking at practices [00:33:10] and Rishi was very much involved in looking at the financial [00:33:15] side because that’s Rishi’s background. Okay. He was in finance. He was still working in finance [00:33:20] at the time. So we kind of leveraged his, you know, on his knowledge and [00:33:25] his skills. Um, and, you know, we just thought, well, here he can contribute really well here. And [00:33:30] we learned things along the way as well. Um, you know, about some of the profitability, finances, [00:33:35] you know, accounts in that side of things. And in the end, it didn’t work out with my brother because they [00:33:40] decided to stay in the Midlands. Um, and then so, you [00:33:45] know, I said, well, I still want to go down this route. Are you happy to help me? And she said, yeah, absolutely. So we were still looking [00:33:50] at practices and then he started getting more and more interested in it. And, [00:33:55] and then he said to me, do you know, one day he said, darling, would it be [00:34:00] okay if we if we did this together? Um, and you know, we’ve got, we’ve [00:34:05] got fantastic.

Speaker1: You know, we’ve got skills on, on either end. You’ve got you can be the kind of clinical [00:34:10] director in that side of it and take control of that. And I can help with the whole, um, [00:34:15] you know, financial side of it, the marketing, um, you know, and, [00:34:20] you know, also help with like, management of staff and, but take over the entire [00:34:25] finance side of it. And it just worked out really well because we’ve got completely different [00:34:30] skill sets. But there are two strong skill sets that you need to run [00:34:35] a practice really efficiently. And yeah, we [00:34:40] started our journey. So basically when we bought the practice where she was still working in banking, [00:34:45] um, we wanted to kind of we’d invested a lot of money, we’d taken a lot of risk. [00:34:50] Um, and just a few years prior, we’d bought our first property as well. So, um, [00:34:55] he just said that. Look, until the finances, you know, work out, personal finances work out, I’ll [00:35:00] continue to work. So he was working two jobs, I remember, you know, working very late at night, [00:35:05] both of us, you know, um, so the first few years were really tough, and then he transitioned [00:35:10] into working full time. And yeah, we’re we’re a 5050 partnership in the practice.

Speaker3: Tell [00:35:15] us the the steps you went through to actually conceive the practice. I mean, were you thinking [00:35:20] squat? Were you thinking buyer practice? Were both things in your head? And [00:35:25] then something shifted you one way or the other?

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. Um, it was, it was looking [00:35:30] at both. And I think you have to look at both options. Uh, it’s just about the opportunity [00:35:35] that came our way. I mean, Payman, you’ve been to our practice, right? Like, what’s not to love [00:35:40] about that building? It is just we. I just fell in love with it. [00:35:45]

Speaker3: Was it existing or did you was existing. Did you start it yourself? You started yourself? No, [00:35:50] I was existing practice.

Speaker1: Yeah, but it was a very small, slow two surgery practice [00:35:55] and we just saw opportunity. I mean, she’s I remember him coming home and saying [00:36:00] I’ve found this fancy practice and you’re going to love it. I know you’re going to love it. And [00:36:05] you know, we both just fell in love with it. Him because of the financial [00:36:10] possibility of what he could achieve from that side. And, and for me, about [00:36:15] what I could create and what I could do and the building and the vibe and the energy [00:36:20] and all of that, like, you know, was was just so in sync with who I was. So [00:36:25] it was a great synergy.

Speaker3: Were you sure it was going to be in Docklands? Did you know that already before? [00:36:30] You know, was that the only place you were looking?

Speaker1: No, not at all. And it was we were living literally on the other side of the river, [00:36:35] so we can see the building from our where we lived in our apartment and where we lived. But absolutely [00:36:40] not. I think when you’re when you’re looking for a practice, you’ve got to explore [00:36:45] all options. You’ve. Go to explore squat practice. You’ve got to explore [00:36:50] an existing practice. And you know, of course, you [00:36:55] know, we wanted it to be, you know, somewhere that was close ish for us to get to because [00:37:00] we know that we have to spend a lot of time there. So that was important. Um, but at the same [00:37:05] time, we were willing to move for the right practice as well. You know, we were we didn’t we didn’t have any children at the time. [00:37:10] So in that sense, we had the flexibility. But it was about the [00:37:15] right practice. And I think it’s a really important, um, that [00:37:20] you know exactly what you want and then you take your time [00:37:25] to look for it if you’re going to invest in something like that.

Speaker3: So [00:37:30] what what were your you know, we’ve got lots of moving parts when you buy a practice. Right. Should it be, [00:37:35] you know, leasehold, freehold. How big how many people potential for for growth. [00:37:40] What what what were your sort of red lines. What were you saying. Were you saying I definitely want a place that [00:37:45] I can do up and grow, or were you saying it has to be fully [00:37:50] private or what were the what were the parameters that you were looking in?

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. [00:37:55] And I think it’s important that you have parameters. Right. So again, really understanding what you [00:38:00] want. So definitely at the time I the type of dentistry I was doing, I was already [00:38:05] working in, you know, a private practice and I wanted it to be fully private. And it was an [00:38:10] existing private practice that we bought in terms of leasehold freehold to us. We were [00:38:15] exploring all options, but we definitely wanted a site where we [00:38:20] could grow in. So in terms of the the layout and the space and looking [00:38:25] at that, I mean, this was AA2 surgery practice that turned into a very vibrant and busy [00:38:30] four surgery practice. Right? So we were able to do that over two refurbishments. And [00:38:35] yeah, you always want the potential for growth.

Speaker3: So how many people was it when [00:38:40] you how many people was it when you bought it and how many people you know.

Speaker1: Gosh, there was seven people, [00:38:45] including everybody. And now we both are lead a team of [00:38:50] 25.

Speaker3: Wow. Since 2017.

Speaker1: Oh, it’s seven years. [00:38:55]

Speaker3: Oh excellent.

Speaker4: So when you when you bought the practice, [00:39:00] um, a lot of people say to me that, um, after buying the practice, they uncover some skeletons, [00:39:05] right, that they didn’t know about when they, when they signed on the dotted line. [00:39:10] And was there anything like that that came any kind of surprises or shocks during the early days where you [00:39:15] thought, oh, crap, I’ve got to deal with this now? And what were the what were the most challenging things [00:39:20] in the in the early days of, um, buying an existing practice? Okay.

Speaker1: So [00:39:25] I’d say the first thing that comes to memory is, is staff. Okay. You come [00:39:30] in with all these different ideas about how you want your team to be, but [00:39:35] you’re taking over an existing team that is run and managed very, very differently. So [00:39:40] you can bring in all your ideas and, you [00:39:45] know, and again, they’re they’ve been sat in a comfort zone. So you’re going to come in with all these different changes. [00:39:50] And some staff will be excited by that and some just won’t be. And I think you’ve got to be quite thick skinned [00:39:55] about that. Um, and you’ve got to start learning about recruitment [00:40:00] and how to recruit. So I’d say that was the number one challenge that [00:40:05] we faced when we first bought the practice. And then the second thing was probably [00:40:10] just structural, structural things like in terms of, you know, when you it’s like going to buy [00:40:15] a house, right? It’s exactly the same thing. You get like a really short opportunity to go in [00:40:20] and, and, and see, it’s not like a test drive that you get to like work in it or live in [00:40:25] it. I mean, some people, you know, may have the privilege to do that, but, you know, we just had a quick, you know, look [00:40:30] at the practice and and then that was it.

Speaker1: Make a decision because there’s [00:40:35] people competing, you know, against this in this buying process. So we had to be quite quick. [00:40:40] Um, so structurally for sure, I remember our deacon room and how everything [00:40:45] was just literally breaking down. And I was thinking, oh my goodness, how did we not see this when we when, [00:40:50] when when we walked around? How could we, you know, miss miss these things. But but that was [00:40:55] it, to be honest with you. And then it was just about clearing up and the mess [00:41:00] and, and you know, all the paperwork and the boxes and all this kind of stuff. And I’m [00:41:05] a very organised person. So thank God for that skill because, um, I spent many, [00:41:10] many Saturdays and Sundays, you know, with, with my marigolds on and, you know, like [00:41:15] going through all these boxes and, and, you know, going through all this mess. So [00:41:20] I think just be prepared potentially for that. But it depends on the type of practice you’re buying. Right. [00:41:25] Sure.

Speaker4: Of course. Um, sureka. Let’s let’s move on now [00:41:30] to, um, your journey today, which is very different from, well, obviously, [00:41:35] whatever, whatever you do in the past shapes your future. Right? But a [00:41:40] lot of the content that you seem to be putting out right now is, is more, um, inspirational, aspirational. [00:41:45] Motivational in terms of its, um, vibe and, [00:41:50] um, what sort of instigated that? What was the what was the driving force [00:41:55] behind that? And then, um, you know, I remember speaking to you a few [00:42:00] months ago and you said to me, Prav, you know what? I really want to do something [00:42:05] different for women in dentistry. I feel they’re underrepresented. [00:42:10] I feel that there’s so much more we can do [00:42:15] for them. And I want to help. So I want to put a course together to [00:42:20] help women in dentistry. So I think my first question is, what is it specifically [00:42:25] about women in dentistry that is is different and more more difficult, [00:42:30] should we say for you guys? And then what is it that drove that [00:42:35] motivation.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. So look, I think since I’ve [00:42:40] graduated I’ve noticed a huge progression, right, in [00:42:45] dentistry, but not just on the clinical side of the profession, but in the industry as, [00:42:50] as a whole. Okay. And for most of my career so far, I’ve been really passionate about [00:42:55] dentistry. However, I think that I have definitely [00:43:00] faced obstacles and I’ve definitely faced challenges, um, in [00:43:05] my career so far. And it’s been on reflection of some of the barriers that [00:43:10] I face and that I’ve experienced. And then, you know, over the last, I’d say [00:43:15] 7 or 8 years, I’ve been having countless conversations with women in [00:43:20] dentistry, not just clinical side of dentistry, but also the industry side [00:43:25] of dentistry. And and I’ve started to notice that there’s a trend that [00:43:30] a lot of us are facing similar barriers, and maybe not all the ones that I’ve [00:43:35] experienced, but a lot of women are facing the same barriers. And I started to, you know, I started to discuss [00:43:40] it with my husband and my friends and other dentists. That why why are we not discussing this more? [00:43:45] Why is there not more kind of education around how women can [00:43:50] overcome barriers, um, in dentistry? And look, if you look at the statistics [00:43:55] of how things are now, you know, 50% or more of graduates are female, [00:44:00] right? So then I started to question, well, in this profession [00:44:05] that I love, what is the future of dentistry actually look like? Right. If many of us are are [00:44:10] facing barriers such as potentially lack of confidence or management of [00:44:15] time or our relationship with money and all these common, you know, these, these common [00:44:20] beliefs that we have, then what is the future of dentistry actually look like? Last [00:44:25] year I climbed Kilimanjaro, and part of that climb was for me to find [00:44:30] my purpose and to get clarity on my purpose. And I feel [00:44:35] like it’s almost like a mission for me now to really [00:44:40] reach out to women, inspire them, motivate them, and, [00:44:45] you know, for them to feel like they are extremely strong leaders in [00:44:50] the dental field.

Speaker4: Sarika, what are the most common barriers? You mentioned a [00:44:55] few barriers there, and a couple of them, um, you mentioned would be barriers that are, you know, [00:45:00] um, experienced by both men and women, right? So for example, relationship with money or finances [00:45:05] and things like that. So I want to dig into more specifically the sort of things [00:45:10] that, you know, women in dentistry have reached out to you about and maybe some of your own barriers that [00:45:15] you’ve faced. Um, as a female in dentistry, you know, whether it revolves [00:45:20] around being a wife, a mother and a business owner all at once and trying to manage [00:45:25] that juggle, that juggling act. What are some of the most common barriers [00:45:30] that you’ve heard about or experienced yourself? Sure.

Speaker1: So I think when I first [00:45:35] started off as a young dentist, um, in that practice that I worked in, it was a very male dominated [00:45:40] profession. And at the time, and on [00:45:45] a social level, I would say there was a lack of. And [00:45:50] socially what what what the practice did for other women. There was lots of social [00:45:55] events that were planned for men, but very little for women. So not not only [00:46:00] were the men kind of had the opportunity to connect, and the opportunities for women [00:46:05] to connect were only happening at work and not outside of work. And I also thought that [00:46:10] there was a lack of female to female support. I only [00:46:15] ever went to my, my, um, my male, um, dentist, [00:46:20] you know, dentist friends for help, for support and for mentorship, but very little. There was [00:46:25] very little female to female support. I also think, relatively speaking, that dentistry [00:46:30] is quite a daunting to career to work in, especially in the initial years. You’re [00:46:35] expected to competently work on your own from day one, and [00:46:40] not only is that challenging on so many levels, but it can be really isolating and [00:46:45] confidence. I think it’s important for us to talk about confidence, you know, two huge [00:46:50] qualities that are correlated in dentistry and in today’s world [00:46:55] are confidence and effective communication. So what [00:47:00] I realised with myself and countless conversations that I’ve had with women on this topic, [00:47:05] is that women often have the competence, but they don’t have the confidence [00:47:10] in many situations. And it’s almost the opposite for men sometimes [00:47:15] I think. But, but, but you know, when, when [00:47:20] and I mean that very respectfully.

Speaker1: But, um, when we talk about confidence [00:47:25] in particular, I think that there are two types of confidence that people have. And it’s important to talk about [00:47:30] this. There’s an outer confidence on how you behave in your environment [00:47:35] and rely on what other people think of us. And then there is an inner confidence [00:47:40] in how you accept and trust yourself and almost have a sense of control in [00:47:45] your life. So personally, I would say that for most of my life, [00:47:50] though I had portrayed outer confidence, I didn’t have much inner confidence. Uh, [00:47:55] and because of that, I suffered with a lot of stress, anxiety, imposter [00:48:00] thoughts, fear, self-judgment, and perfectionism. And [00:48:05] not just in relation to my clinical dentistry, but in other aspects of my life, too. So, [00:48:10] you know, we should identify that confidence or a lack of confidence. [00:48:15] It’s a very gender neutral concept, and everyone will be confident and not confident about [00:48:20] something. But and I think there’s a big debate around stereotyping that [00:48:25] outcomes and of decisions that women make are due to a lack of self confidence. [00:48:30] And I don’t think we should go into that because it’s more important to discuss why [00:48:35] some women suffer with a lack of confidence. And if I may continue, [00:48:40] I think in my opinion, this comes down to two things. So [00:48:45] the first is our environment and what we see as [00:48:50] women. We’ve grown up and we still live and work in quite a male dominated environment. [00:48:55] Yes, things are changing, but it’s definitely not happening at the magnitude and speed at which [00:49:00] we think it’s changing.

Speaker1: And, you know, we’ve started to see that shift in the last [00:49:05] few years in dentistry where women are not only showcasing incredible [00:49:10] clinical skills, but they’re more involved in teaching and lecturing. [00:49:15] They’re building and developing more businesses and clinics and [00:49:20] taking on bigger leadership roles. And I just want to maybe take this opportunity right now to acknowledge [00:49:25] and commend those serious female powerhouses that are out there, although worldwide, [00:49:30] we have noticed that, like I said, there’s that huge movement [00:49:35] in female empowerment, but the speed at which it’s happening is, is [00:49:40] not at what we think it is, especially because some of the choices [00:49:45] and opportunities that women have had have only really happened within the last hundred years or so, [00:49:50] many of which have happened in the last 50 years. So for the majority [00:49:55] of women in our life, we’ve been influenced by a male dominated world. You know, we’ve we’ve [00:50:00] lived in patriarchy for so long, and for those women that are already making it, they’ve had to [00:50:05] overcome some pretty big biases and challenges. And again, you know, just [00:50:10] to let you both know, this is a really common conversation, a topic of conversation, [00:50:15] um, amongst women. And I think the second reason behind a lack of self-confidence [00:50:20] sometimes is our upbringing to some degree, um, namely cultures and beliefs. [00:50:25] And I’d like to maybe discuss one aspect of this, and it’s called the [00:50:30] The Good Girl syndrome. Have either of you heard of this? The good girl syndrome? Yeah, yeah. [00:50:35] Um, be a.

Speaker3: Good girl and do the.

Speaker1: Exactly. Um, and, you know, [00:50:40] it’s often used in our childhood by our caregivers. So the good girl syndrome is basically just [00:50:45] the manifestation of traits valued and praised amongst little girls, [00:50:50] and how deviating from those traits makes them feel guilty or fearful of [00:50:55] being judged, constantly seeking validation from others and the need [00:51:00] to excel in everything that they do. So they’re setting themselves really, really high standards all the time [00:51:05] and almost being perfect. And this inability to say no, um, and [00:51:10] being afraid of upsetting others. So it’s no wonder, with this kind of conditioning, [00:51:15] that many women develop scripts, mindset, beliefs that [00:51:20] lead to them suffering with fear, self-doubt, impostor thoughts, perfectionism, [00:51:25] people pleasing um, and a lack of deep inner confidence. [00:51:30]

Speaker4: I’ve got a question. I’ve got a question related to that, which is, um, it relates [00:51:35] to children, actually, because, um, what you just brought up there is, is [00:51:40] be a be a good girl in that. So, so you actually it’s almost like [00:51:45] you get this definition of what being a good girl is, and then you don’t want to be a [00:51:50] bad girl. So you you behave in that certain way and you become conditioned, right? Absolutely. [00:51:55] But boy or girl with our with our children. Right. We can say things to [00:52:00] our kids, right? Oh, you’re a really good girl. You’re a good boy, you’re a good kid, blah blah, [00:52:05] blah, blah, blah. And unknowingly, we could be conditioning them into [00:52:10] what is good or bad. And on the whole, I believe we should teach our teach [00:52:15] our kids, um, you know, how to behave and set examples for them and stuff. But [00:52:20] has that impacted the way you, you interact with, with your kids and what you say and how you communicate [00:52:25] with them? Our curiosity.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that [00:52:30] you’re right. We we use we use that phrase quite a bit. Right. Like be a good boy [00:52:35] and do this. Or if you’re not going to be a good boy, you’re going to be naughty. You won’t get that. But yeah, [00:52:40] you know, we’ve got to be careful on how we use that phrase. I think it’s [00:52:45] really important. And I think modern parenting, there is a bit more awareness around [00:52:50] how we use that phrase, uh, phrase. Because, you know, we recognise that, [00:52:55] especially me as a woman. I feel that I’ve recognised through my upbringing how much it’s affected [00:53:00] me. And I have memories of, you know, being the older sibling as well that, [00:53:05] you know, I’d be playing with, with with my with my brother. Um, he’s [00:53:10] trying to snatch a toy from me. And this happens over and over again. He’s trying to snatch a toy from me. And my parents would say, [00:53:15] do you know what? I’ll give it to your brother. You’re such a good girl, you know? And everything was. You’re such a good girl. You’re [00:53:20] such a good girl. And for such a long time, you know, we I had that fear [00:53:25] of judgement from people, you know, for so long.

Speaker1: And it’s crazy how powerful that is, because [00:53:30] it really stops you from moving forward and achieving [00:53:35] goals, or trying something new and taking on a new challenge and also constantly [00:53:40] seeking validation. You know, it was it was only, you know. I’d say maybe ten years [00:53:45] ago, where I looked at myself and I thought, gosh, I’m so proud of myself for [00:53:50] achieving what I’ve achieved because I’ve been through a lot. And, you know, I don’t talk about enough. But how [00:53:55] often do we say that we’re proud of ourselves and what we’ve achieved? Right. And I [00:54:00] think we came from a generation where parents didn’t necessarily tell you that. And I think, [00:54:05] I think my parents told me that, you know, they were proud of me for me just a few years ago. You [00:54:10] know, they look back at my life. I was so proud of you. And I’m like, thanks. I’ve never heard you say that before. [00:54:15] And again, not intentionally right. But I think that culturally it [00:54:20] wasn’t just we weren’t given, you know, that that validation.

Speaker3: So does your [00:54:25] course cover this aspect as well?

Speaker1: Absolutely. Okay. So I guess [00:54:30] let’s talk about the course okay. The course is around self leadership [00:54:35] for for women in dentistry. And I think that there is a difference [00:54:40] between leadership and self leadership. And we should understand what that what that difference is. [00:54:45] And I’d like to bring some clarity around that. So leadership is defined as the ability [00:54:50] to lead other people. So there’s an external motivation. However [00:54:55] the more common leadership training um that will [00:55:00] teach elements of self leadership like having certain thoughts, behaviours and attributes. So [00:55:05] if you both visualise a beautiful tree, we’ll call it the leadership [00:55:10] tree. And this tree has roots, a tree trunk and branches. The [00:55:15] self leadership is the roots and the skills of self. Leadership is the roots. The [00:55:20] trunk is is macro or external leadership skills and [00:55:25] the branches are the different types of leadership roles and styles. So [00:55:30] self leadership the rules, the roots, sorry [00:55:35] is the fundamental base of any leadership. It’s [00:55:40] having a true sense of who you really are, the potential of what you can [00:55:45] do. So the power of choice and have full clarity on your goals [00:55:50] where you’re going, coupled with the ability to be able to intentionally [00:55:55] with full control influence your thinking, your feelings, and your actions on the way to getting there. [00:56:00] So with Self-leadership skills, you’re able to successfully [00:56:05] navigate, thrive, and succeed through life’s challenges. Master [00:56:10] self-awareness. Self-confidence. Self-management. Make time work for you. [00:56:15] Decrease stress and overwhelm. Be resilient in the face of adversity. [00:56:20] Find meaning and purpose in your greater.

Speaker1: Why. Understand [00:56:25] from your individual strengths and how to leverage them. Experience [00:56:30] better relationships with others around you, at home and at work, and [00:56:35] beginning to live life with real intentionality and literally [00:56:40] be the most authentic version of yourself every single day. So [00:56:45] by practising and mastering self-leadership, you’re developing [00:56:50] your your inner game, okay? And your inner game consists of your mindset, which is intention, [00:56:55] self-awareness like your authenticity, self-confidence, self-belief, self-management, [00:57:00] which is self-motivation. And then with this and having more clarity around [00:57:05] it, your choices and decisions, you positively influence your outer game and [00:57:10] that’s your actions. So I believe that self leadership, through [00:57:15] my own experience, is the foundation for being an effective human [00:57:20] in the current contemporary world that that we live in. And [00:57:25] once you understand that, you can start to master your macro external leadership [00:57:30] skills and then move on to more niche leadership styles. So [00:57:35] a lot of people ask me that, you know, does does self leadership mean that [00:57:40] you’re going to suddenly transition in this world? Um, and [00:57:45] it’s not necessarily that. Um, so being a self leader doesn’t, [00:57:50] you know, doesn’t mean that you have to be a leader in the traditional traditional sense. Right? Not [00:57:55] everyone wants to lead. So the world needs both leaders and followers. And [00:58:00] I guess I truly believe that if you can’t effectively lead others [00:58:05] in any aspect of your life, then you [00:58:10] know you can’t effectively lead others in any aspect of your life if you can’t lead yourself first. And [00:58:15] that’s so important.

Speaker3: But the you know, it’s a bit like [00:58:20] asking, um, how do I lose weight? Well, you go to the gym and you eat good [00:58:25] food. The information, but the execution on it, [00:58:30] the mindset it takes to turn up for yourself. I find [00:58:35] that the real challenge because I’ll turn up for others. But for yourself, what’s [00:58:40] the what’s a hack you can use to take care of that?

Speaker1: So look, [00:58:45] mindset and mindset shift, which is a huge part of self leadership. You’ve [00:58:50] got to be able to understand that because a lot of what the habits that are already set in us [00:58:55] is from experience and from from, from previous beliefs. Right. And [00:59:00] the good thing is the brain is mouldable and that there are strategies on [00:59:05] how you can change that mindset and make that shift. But look, [00:59:10] I mean payment, you have to realise that you want the change first, right? [00:59:15] You have to realise, you know, where is it you want to go, what kind of life [00:59:20] do you really want to live? Right? And once you have that set [00:59:25] in stone, then you’re ready to then use all the strategies, um, from [00:59:30] self leadership, create that mindset change. And then it’s all about intentionality, [00:59:35] accountability, responsibility. And then moving on from there.

Speaker3: I know, but [00:59:40] I want to live a skinny life. That’s the life. Change. [00:59:45] It’s lovely. It’s lovely.

Speaker1: You know, I’ve been through that myself, you know, [00:59:50] I’m.

Speaker3: Sure you, you.

Speaker1: Know, and you know, I feel like I’m very age positive. [00:59:55] And I feel I’m in my 40s now, and I’m probably in terms of my fitness, [01:00:00] um, and my ability, my energy. I’m the best that I’ve been possibly [01:00:05] ever in my life. Really? Absolutely. And again, it was just down [01:00:10] to, first of all, understanding, why do I why do I want to change? [01:00:15] Why do I want to lose weight? Why do I want to be in this state of energy and and creating [01:00:20] that why? And then having a system put in place in terms of your diet [01:00:25] and your exercise and making them non-negotiables right in our life. And I think [01:00:30] Rishi and I have created such a great balance in our lives. And even when it comes to time management [01:00:35] for our business, what we do and our son, we’ve made all [01:00:40] our exercise in our health a non-negotiable. So it’s totally possible [01:00:45] to like that.

Speaker3: Let’s finish with the darker side. [01:00:50] When we on this pod, we like to look at errors. Mistakes in the hope that [01:00:55] we can all learn from them. When I when I say clinical mistakes, [01:01:00] what comes to mind?

Speaker1: Gosh. One one [01:01:05] dark, dark memory. So. At university, [01:01:10] we didn’t have a lot of clinical experience with molar endo. And [01:01:15] so I think I just done one more llorando when I graduated. Right. [01:01:20] And then in my VCE, that’s it. You’re you’re working in NHS practice. [01:01:25] You have to face it. Everything that comes in, you’re responsible for every single person [01:01:30] that comes through that door. And I remember seeing this molar endo that [01:01:35] that I had to do was really nervous about it. I was going through all my notes again. I was talking to, you [01:01:40] know, my friends, mentors, and basically I had [01:01:45] over extruded in, in all all the canals. And the smaller [01:01:50] endo had failed about a year on and another dentist [01:01:55] then took it out. I had the tooth had to be extracted, so extracted it and [01:02:00] you could see the little bit of GP at the end of the roots. And I remember a [01:02:05] nurse going around and having this tooth on the tissue and showing it to everyone and saying, look, [01:02:10] Sarika did this endo, you know, um, and that was a devastating. [01:02:15]

Speaker3: How did that happen?

Speaker1: Devastating for me.

Speaker3: How did that happen that [01:02:20] last piece.

Speaker1: Yeah. Gosh I mean this is it. Right. And [01:02:25] she was she was my nurse. She was my nurse in my PT. And you know, something I haven’t spoken about today was, [01:02:30] um, that I was bullied by her in, in my year, um, [01:02:35] and kind of had to face that challenge as well. So. It was just one of those [01:02:40] things. And I think you just have to know that as a dentist, [01:02:45] you have a huge responsibility, right? You’re building your experience with time, and you [01:02:50] have to be patient and kind to yourself. Um, as you progress through your career, you [01:02:55] have to own your mistakes and, you know, reflect on them, learn from [01:03:00] them, and just be better. Be better every single day. But, [01:03:05] you know, all of us know that it’s it’s experience comes with time. You’re always going to [01:03:10] have challenges, all different types of challenges, but it’s about facing them. And then, [01:03:15] you know, being able to make the right decisions and make the right choices [01:03:20] and then move on from there.

Speaker3: What about if we were to push the rewind button [01:03:25] on platinum? Back to the day you started. Now, knowing [01:03:30] what you know now, what different decisions would you make?

Speaker1: Gosh. [01:03:35] Um.

Speaker3: Would you do something earlier [01:03:40] or.

Speaker1: Do you know what? No. Because, um, that triggered you [01:03:45] won’t believe it. But that moment actually triggered my decision [01:03:50] to then do my mjff and then do my MSC in restorative [01:03:55] Easemon. I just, I told myself, and I don’t know, you know, I [01:04:00] guess that with every challenge we talk about resilience. With [01:04:05] that challenge, there’s there’s trauma attached to it. Right. And we’re not good about talking about that trauma. [01:04:10] So you can you know, a lot of people kind of react to that trauma. And I guess that [01:04:15] that was my reaction to the trauma. And I told myself that I wanted to be the best. [01:04:20] I would never let this ever, ever, ever happen again. I would take 100% responsibility. [01:04:25] And for every single treatment that came my way, I would just make sure that [01:04:30] I’d done my best. And if it was out of my skill set, I’m not going to be scared [01:04:35] about asking for help anymore. I’m not going to be scared just to kind of hit the [01:04:40] pause button and just be like, you know what? This is out of my skill set, and I just [01:04:45] need to think about this a little bit more. And what it did was it just took a bit [01:04:50] of bit of fear away. It really it was like a bit of a punch in the face, to be honest with you. [01:04:55] And it took a bit of the fear away, but it had a really positive impact.

Speaker3: Often [01:05:00] look at. Often the worst thing that happens to you in your life is ends up being the best [01:05:05] thing because of forms you, doesn’t it? That it changes changes who [01:05:10] you are. And you know when there’s a whole podcast called How to Fail. [01:05:15] It’s where they come in with their three biggest failures. And then and then they talk about how [01:05:20] brilliant it was for their lives. Yeah, we’re coming to the end of our time. Prav.

Speaker4: Um, [01:05:25] I guess that leaves us to tap into our final questions. [01:05:30] But just before we do that, Sarika, um, for those, um, out there listening [01:05:35] to this podcast, if they wanted to find out more information about your upcoming course that [01:05:40] you’re going to be running, how would they do that?

Speaker1: Okay. So they can access [01:05:45] my website, which is flourish as a female.com, and [01:05:50] they can also DM me on my Instagram platform which is Doctor Sarika Shah. [01:05:55] So absolutely. And they can go and learn about everything about the course [01:06:00] on their.

Speaker4: And we will. We will put the link to your website in the [01:06:05] show notes as well, so people can just click straight through if they if they want to find that. Um, just to, just [01:06:10] to make it a little bit easier. Fantastic. But on to our final question, Sarika. Let’s say, [01:06:15] um, you get to the the it’s your final day on the planet, right? And, um, [01:06:20] you’ve got your loved ones around you, and you had to leave them with three [01:06:25] pieces of wisdom. What would they be?

Speaker1: So I’d say [01:06:30] the first would be always prioritise your well-being. The [01:06:35] second would be always be your authentic self [01:06:40] and never sacrifice anything you [01:06:45] sense you will regret later on in life. The [01:06:50] third would be to adopt a champions discipline in managing your [01:06:55] time. And if I had one tiny, tiny little breath left, if I may, [01:07:00] is I would say that trust yourself. And [01:07:05] know that you are resourceful enough to make your dreams come true.

Speaker4: Lovely. [01:07:10] Lovely. And, um, how would you like to be remembered?

Speaker1: I [01:07:15] think as someone who inspired [01:07:20] so many women in dentistry and created huge [01:07:25] impact, not just in the UK, but on a global level. By creating [01:07:30] such a big change in their lives and being able to really get them [01:07:35] to flourish and thrive, not just in their professional life, but in everything that they do. [01:07:40] And I want to be remembered for someone that is therefore created a big [01:07:45] impact in the future of dentistry.

Speaker4: Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. [01:07:50] Payman. Over to your party.

Speaker5: The [01:07:55] question is.

Speaker3: The question is a question about who you want to spend some time and talk to. So, fantasy dinner party. [01:08:00] Three guests, dead or alive. Who would you have?

Speaker1: So [01:08:05] my first one definitely would be Michelle Obama. The reason being is I [01:08:10] think that she has such a strong sense of self, and I think that even [01:08:15] before President Obama started his presidency, she [01:08:20] already had such a strong career and knew her goals is so much clarity. She’s just such [01:08:25] a strong human being, and I’d love to talk to her so much more about how [01:08:30] she continued to be herself and even more and still, [01:08:35] you know, and still be married to President Obama and still be able to support him. So I [01:08:40] think that her trying to understand where she got her sense of self from, for sure.

Speaker6: Hmm’hmm. [01:08:45]

Speaker3: It’s not the first time she’s. And who [01:08:50] would you have? Who else?

Speaker1: My second one would actually be Cleopatra. Um. [01:08:55] And I think she’s one of the. She’s an ancient queen. Right. [01:09:00] And again, in this, like, very patriarchal society [01:09:05] and how she used her intellect and [01:09:10] some of her female traits to be able to lead. And I’d love [01:09:15] to understand the challenges that she faced and how she overcame them, but how [01:09:20] she truly stayed true to herself right til the end, [01:09:25] right? She really fought for what she believed in. And I thought, that’s really inspiring. So definitely hard. [01:09:30]

Speaker5: And nice.

Speaker1: I guess my third one would be [01:09:35] Mahatma Gandhi, because once again, he has such an immense sense of [01:09:40] self and authenticity and he’s such an amazing communicator, [01:09:45] right? That was what was really interesting about him, that he was able to inspire and persuade [01:09:50] millions of people to create impact from an individual [01:09:55] level to a country to a global level. Right. And [01:10:00] he was able to combine this authenticity, his vision and his [01:10:05] purpose. And I guess, like Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, he was [01:10:10] such an effective communicator using verbal and nonverbal communication. But also, [01:10:15] I think, again, he was true to himself. Being Jain. He focussed his actions [01:10:20] using the founding principle of Jainism, which is non-violence. And he led so many [01:10:25] passive rebellions and protests. So I’d love to tap into his mind and have a fantasy [01:10:30] dinner with him. Definitely.

Speaker5: Brilliant.

Speaker4: Wonderful.

Speaker3: Thank you so much [01:10:35] for doing this. Looking looking forward to seeing to seeing how how how the course goes [01:10:40] and how the practice goes as well. Hopefully we have you back in five years and there’s a chain of platinums. [01:10:45] And thank you. Let’s see how it goes. Lovely to have you. Thank [01:10:50] you.

Speaker4: Yeah I’m really interested to see how the course evolves. Really? And, um, you [01:10:55] become this leading light for female dentists, not only here, but I really like [01:11:00] the way you articulated your vision globally. I think that’s I think that’s lovely. So [01:11:05] thank thanks for sharing today, Sarika, and thanks for your time.

Speaker1: Thank you so much. Thank you both. Have a [01:11:10] lovely day.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:11:15] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:11:20] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [01:11:25] and Prav Solanki.

Speaker4: Thanks for listening, guys. If [01:11:30] you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:11:35] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, [01:11:40] because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about [01:11:45] subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some [01:11:50] value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker4: And don’t forget our six star rating. [01:11:55]

Speaker1: I don’t feel guilty about leaving the NHS at all. I think that as a system, [00:00:05] the the faster people leave it, the faster it will get restructured because I don’t think it’s a functioning system. [00:00:10] Personally, I think we should just all rebel against it because it doesn’t serve people [00:00:15] at all. It keeps people in ongoing maintenance that’s not [00:00:20] actually adequate for ideal dental health, you know. So I’m in [00:00:25] favour of this whole system being restructured. And I understand that absolutely. People out there who just do [00:00:30] not have the funds to do any better or to do anything else, and my opinion [00:00:35] anyway, is that it should be an urgent care system and it should then be [00:00:40] put into maybe insurance or something like that, which is more realistic, you know, where you get a better standard [00:00:45] of care, because as long as people are not fairly compensated for the hard, hard work they do, [00:00:50] people are always going to find ways to cut corners. And then that person deserves a good standard of care for [00:00:55] what they’re paying is that even though it may not be relatively a lot, but they are still taking what they have, [00:01:00] you know, and giving it to someone and not getting something that actually reflects a good quality [00:01:05] of care.

Speaker2: This [00:01:10] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you [00:01:15] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:01:25] Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Yolanda Fisher [00:01:30] onto the podcast. Yolanda is a dentist in Bristol [00:01:35] who is just a really makes me feel like I want to know more about her. Just just [00:01:40] from just from her profile. Dentists. Do gooder. Bookworm. Businesswoman. Wonderful. [00:01:45] On a mission to thrive, not to survive. Yeah. Um, welcome [00:01:50] onto the pod. Yeah. How are you? You so.

Speaker1: Much. It’s great to be here. [00:01:55]

Speaker3: Um, this pod usually starts with the backstory. Um, where were you [00:02:00] born? What kind of kid were you? All the way to. Why? Why [00:02:05] did you choose dentistry?

Speaker1: My life is a bit convoluted and off the beaten track. [00:02:10] I was born in Cameroon, which is in West Africa. A lot of people are probably very [00:02:15] familiar with Nigeria because there’s lots of Nigerians in the UK. So Cameroon is its more [00:02:20] quiet neighbour. And my family, well, I and [00:02:25] my mother moved over when I was five to London because my mother at the time was studying law at University [00:02:30] College London. So that’s how I ended up in London and she ended up. So that was [00:02:35] actually her. Was it her first graduate degree or her undergraduate? I can’t remember which of the two, but she was ended up [00:02:40] being scouted by the UN and has ever since worked with the UN. And [00:02:45] I stayed in London for early childhood. But with the UN you [00:02:50] have family and non-family posts, so some places where you can take your family with you, some places where you can’t. [00:02:55] And a lot of her early posts were non-family posts. So I lived in London with my aunt, [00:03:00] actually her older sister, while she was in refugee camps and all sorts of things [00:03:05] advocating for refugees. And yes, I was in London for for a few years [00:03:10] until I was about 11.

Speaker3: So your mum was in other countries [00:03:15] for months at a time. And yeah, I see her years at a time. [00:03:20] Yeah. Wow. So how what’s your reflection [00:03:25] on that fact?

Speaker1: Um, I think most people ask me what it’s [00:03:30] like not growing up with my mother in the house. And to be honest, I don’t know any different, so I [00:03:35] can’t I don’t have anything to compare it to. So for me, that was just my standard baseline. [00:03:40] That was my life. So even though she was so far away, she was very present. So it’s not like she would just [00:03:45] went and I she didn’t know what was going on in my life. She still controlled every facet of my life. [00:03:50] You know what schools I went to, what I was doing, whether I went out with this [00:03:55] friend on this night, you know, my aunt would call her all the time, and she had a hand in everything that was [00:04:00] going on in my life, but just not physically present. So I still felt her presence, [00:04:05] but just not physically, I guess. So.

Speaker3: And where was your dad?

Speaker1: It was a different [00:04:10] time with my dad, so by this point my parents were separated, so they divorced when I [00:04:15] before we moved to the UK and my dad was training to be an architect and he his studies took [00:04:20] him to Italy. So he was in Italy at the time and then France. So that’s kind of he stayed on [00:04:25] that Italy France side and my mum ended up in the UK. So [00:04:30] uh, well for a short while.

Speaker3: And were you in the UK for the whole time or did you at all travel [00:04:35] with your mum?

Speaker1: So I was in the UK from five until around 11 or 12, I can’t remember exactly. [00:04:40] And then she got a family post in Kenya and I went to Kenya with her for three years and [00:04:45] that was really fun. I really enjoyed Kenya and when her time there was over, I actually said to her, just leave me here. You [00:04:50] go where you need to go. I’m fine here. I really like the country. It’s such a beautiful country, [00:04:55] beautiful people. I had a great life there and I really. Yeah, I wanted to stay in Kenya, but [00:05:00] obviously she didn’t. She didn’t have any family in Kenya, so she wasn’t comfortable leaving me there. So, [00:05:05] um, she was sent to another non-family post and I went [00:05:10] back to the UK.

Speaker3: Wow. What a what a childhood man. So [00:05:15] then how did. Then street. How did then street come into the equation?

Speaker1: I [00:05:20] had always been good at science. I really enjoyed health care, but I just actually not health care. [00:05:25] I enjoyed the human body and I thought it was fascinating, and my dad was really pushing me to be [00:05:30] a doctor because he thought, you know what? You’ve got the brains, you’ve got the skill, you’ve got the interest. But [00:05:35] I think you have to really look at yourself and look at your personality and what you are passionate. [00:05:40] And I think I felt like being a doctor is a calling. And I just did not have that calling at all. The [00:05:45] amount of work involved for what you get in return, you have to love it. And I [00:05:50] didn’t love it in the slightest bit. I’m not interested in people’s kidneys, their livers. I just don’t want to know, [00:05:55] you know, so I just yeah, I do want to know. So I went to UCL and I did a [00:06:00] degree in biomedical sciences, which obviously is just kind of like a general healthcare degree. And I did the [00:06:05] unaccredited version of the course. So it meant that I could just choose whatever modules I wanted. And I did all sorts of random [00:06:10] things. I did module in Spanish, I did philosophy of the mind, I did neuro neuroanatomy, whatever [00:06:15] I wanted.

Speaker1: At the end of it I thought, actually, dentistry is not bad because here I get [00:06:20] to still be interested in the body, but I can just focus on this one area and not have to deal with [00:06:25] people’s kidneys. That sounds great. And I went and [00:06:30] I spent. So this is when I was still at UCL. So this was my second year and I went to Gower [00:06:35] Street and I found I walked into the first dental practice I could find in Gower Street, asked if I could shadow, and [00:06:40] he was like, yeah, absolutely, really lovely guy, I wish I could remember his name. It was really lovely, man. And [00:06:45] I spent 3 or 4 days shadowing with him and I thought, yeah, this, this looks all right. I think I’ll do this. [00:06:50] And that’s how I got into dentistry. So from then I kind of started to gear [00:06:55] my work experience and my, my final year module. So I did bone physiology and my final [00:07:00] year to kind of support my dental applications and things like that. But I didn’t get in the first time round. [00:07:05]

Speaker3: So yeah, tell me about the process. Then tell me about the applications process [00:07:10] and what that meant to you.

Speaker1: And yeah, it was interesting. I um, because [00:07:15] of my weird upbringing and going back and forth in UK, I still [00:07:20] wasn’t a British citizen, so I was applying as an international student, even though I’d pretty much been [00:07:25] predominantly of my like the larger majority of my life in the UK. So they have specific [00:07:30] number of slots that they allocate international students versus home students, and then they also [00:07:35] assess whether or not they could. They think you can pay the fees. So some of [00:07:40] the universities just rejected me saying that they didn’t think I could pay the international fees, and [00:07:45] which was completely unfair because actually the UN fund a large portion of our [00:07:50] tuition. So that was quite unfair. But regardless, I thought, [00:07:55] never mind, this is not going to break me down. I took a short course in dental nursing, and in my gap year I [00:08:00] worked as a dental nurse for 6 or 7 months.

Speaker3: Wow.

Speaker1: To get like further insight into the [00:08:05] career. So yeah, six seven months I went to the dental nurse. So this was before you had to be registered or anything. I [00:08:10] literally did a two weeks course and I was straight into surgery. Um, and, and that gave me real [00:08:15] insight into like this was the old UDA contract and just the way it just. No sorry, this [00:08:20] is pre UDA because when I was doing my interviews, the UDA contract had just been released [00:08:25] like the draft of it. And I remember thinking, oh, I need to read this whole contract for my interview. And uh, [00:08:30] yeah, it was an interesting time, but I feel like it gave me real insight into what I was getting myself into and [00:08:35] kind of the conditions that people were working in because I was doing. I was working in Hackney [00:08:40] in the like, real belt of NHS work, you know, one in, one out, bash out [00:08:45] as many amalgams as you can in one hour and move them along, you know, so I [00:08:50] feel like I got a real reality. And to be fair, what I saw there [00:08:55] was what more what I was expecting compared to what I actually got when I [00:09:00] graduated. So I was actually a bit of a shock to me to go the other way. Yeah. And what I [00:09:05] experienced in London was not at all what it was like for me graduating, which [00:09:10] was an interesting difference, really.

Speaker3: So did you have more empathy [00:09:15] for the nurse’s role now? Oh yeah.

Speaker1: Absolutely. It’s really what’s the [00:09:20] word? It’s really they don’t get enough praise. Yeah. It’s really hard work [00:09:25] you know, because there’s a lot you don’t know but you’re expected just to understand. Well [00:09:30] maybe that was my perspective because I had done a short course. Yeah. Um, and I picked up quite a lot, but [00:09:35] there’s a lot of pressure and time and you can really make or break the dentist. Absolutely. [00:09:40] How how you work and also the relationship with the dentist is really important. [00:09:45] Unfortunately, the dentist I work for wasn’t the kindest, and he used to call me stupid in front of patients and [00:09:50] throw things at me. Yeah, just really horrendous man. I’ve always made it a point [00:09:55] to be just really patient and kind and kind of understanding with people because you don’t know what they’re coming with. And [00:10:00] I understand that. Obviously you want to do your best for your patient as a dentist, but also they are doing their [00:10:05] best. If they’re not meeting your standard, it’s not because for the large majority, it’s not because they’re not [00:10:10] doing their best. And you just need to have patience with people. So yeah it was horrendous man. [00:10:15] But you know made it out the other side.

Speaker3: It’s that sort of hierarchy. Key situation [00:10:20] that exists in dental practices generally. Right? You know, you’ve got the principal right at [00:10:25] the top of the tree and then it’s a nurse, isn’t it? It’s a junior nurse who’s at the bottom [00:10:30] of that tree and, and that sort of abuse that you’re talking about. [00:10:35] You can you can imagine even if it’s not verbal, there’s so much [00:10:40] of it, so much of it’s a mental abuse. Yeah. That I [00:10:45] think it’s human nature. Right. When one, when one person’s in charge of another, they can do that. [00:10:50] It’s a risk of it. But are you now so, so aware of that, that you’re, you’re [00:10:55] giving your, your team the best life possible? Like give me give me some more insight about it. Um. [00:11:00]

Speaker1: I try to be as patient as I can, and I [00:11:05] feel like I think most nurses say that they like to work with me just because I, like I said, because [00:11:10] I’ve been on the other side. I know what it’s like, for example, for a locum nurse coming into scenario and you just [00:11:15] don’t know what this person’s going to be like if you do one thing wrong, whether or not they’re just going [00:11:20] to have an absolute go at you if you hand them the wrong bond or something that you [00:11:25] have no chance of knowing. So I try to take my time and teach people things, [00:11:30] and that’s the other thing making them feel comfortable to ask questions. And yeah, ask [00:11:35] me what’s going on. Ask me what you’re doing. What would you like, Lex? Because there’s a lot of I hear a lot of nurses say that they [00:11:40] they they have a lot of dentists who won’t let them speak, essentially, you know, like they [00:11:45] are there just to service their needs. But they’re not actually people, you know, and I think, as [00:11:50] you said, with the hierarchy, it’s so easy to forget that these are people and they are here as well [00:11:55] for them, like I said, doing their best and coming to work to do their best. And if [00:12:00] you treat them with respect, they give you the same respect back. Really, they’re not your lackeys.

Speaker3: Essentially, [00:12:05] I noticed you wrote a piece on mental health in dentistry. Yeah. [00:12:10] About what? Was it, a year and a half ago or something? Yeah. And, you know, we’re [00:12:15] doing this mental health podcast as well about stress and all that and, you know, try and figure out what is it about [00:12:20] dentistry that causes so much stress. You know, why dentistry. Why not? You know, [00:12:25] um, brain surgeons, um, you know why. You know, okay. It’s [00:12:30] a it’s a pressure job. But I think part of that is to do with [00:12:35] the one room you, you and the nurse. Um, and [00:12:40] and of course, there’s many other things. There’s the live patient. Yeah. That, you know, I’ve [00:12:45] got a cousin who’s an eye surgeon, and he says the operations he does on local just [00:12:50] tire him out three times as much as the ones he does in general because of because of [00:12:55] the live patient, you know.

Speaker1: Yeah, the intensity of it.

Speaker3: The intensity. But but also [00:13:00] let’s imagine, you know, we know when, when, when things go wrong mental health wise, [00:13:05] it tends to be like concentric circles, like perfect storm of things going wrong. [00:13:10] And we see it in dentistry as well, don’t we. Like patient doesn’t quite open his mouth. [00:13:15] He’s nervous. Maybe you’ve got the wrong, wrong material [00:13:20] that day. Maybe it’s a locum nurse and the things come together for this perfect [00:13:25] storm. Um, but as far as mental health, perfect storm goes, you know, the relationship [00:13:30] between you and your nurse is massive.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: And, yeah, it’s so huge. [00:13:35] And for now, we’ve been talking about these tyrant dentists. But it doesn’t even have [00:13:40] to be that. It could be. You know, just the quality of that relationship can set, you [00:13:45] know, the rest of your life in or out of sync completely.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:13:50] I’ve had unfortunately, a scenario where I haven’t gotten on with a nurse, which I thought, you [00:13:55] know, I thought it would never happen to me. And I was like, you know, I’m always going to be on the nurses side. It’s not [00:14:00] going to happen to me. Yeah, but it happened to me. And for me, it was more the fact that, um, [00:14:05] we didn’t have the same work ethic, you know, and not to say that I’m [00:14:10] the hardest working person in the world, there’s definitely more hard, but I feel like if you go here, you’ve got a job to do and [00:14:15] you need to do it, you know, and when somebody isn’t meeting me there, and I have been [00:14:20] patient and I have, you know, explained things and I have, you know, been like, you know, let me [00:14:25] show you how to do this. Let me help you improve. But they just have no desire to improve. And [00:14:30] as a consequence of them having no desire to improve my life is terrible. Yeah, I found that challenging. [00:14:35] And I think that was the most difficult relationship I’ve had with a dental nurse. [00:14:40] And that really made work a really uncomfortable environment [00:14:45] for me because like I said, I guess you almost get an image of yourself. I try to present [00:14:50] myself as the one who’s always good with nurses and who always kind of like is on is [00:14:55] for them, you know, and encouraging them and being like, you can do this, you can do whatever you want. And, [00:15:00] um, that one took a peg off my self image, I guess. [00:15:05] But to just made the whole working relationship really frosty. Yeah. [00:15:10] And uncomfortable when you don’t get along with them because it really does make or break your day. How you because it’s someone [00:15:15] you’re sat in a room with all day long.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker1: And and. And it kind [00:15:20] of wears you down mentally and emotionally. Absolutely.

Speaker3: I think it’s something that’s not talked enough about [00:15:25] enough. You know, I don’t I don’t remember any any teaching on it at all. I mean, no, [00:15:30] um, I studied in Cardiff. We had this thing, um, it [00:15:35] was it was like a close support nursing kind of four handed, four handed dentistry thing. Oh, [00:15:40] yeah. Um, but again, it had nothing to do with the, you know, the relationship between [00:15:45] you and you and the nurse and I, but I went to my job, my first job, [00:15:50] and I’d only done four handed dentistry for maybe three years before [00:15:55] because it turned out we were friends with the nurses who were taking care of that bit of the clinic. Yeah. And, um, so [00:16:00] I just sat down in my job and I just put my hands out, as you do with [00:16:05] four handed. And she just looked at me. She just she just looked at me. She said, what are you doing? [00:16:10] Yeah. Like, what’s this mean? Yeah. And I was like, you know, there’s a patient here. I was I was like looking [00:16:15] at her like as if give me the instruments. Right. You know, like that mirror and probe. That’s what that meant, right. Mirror and probe. [00:16:20] Yeah. And the patient left, and I said to her, well, what’s going on? How come you put the instruments [00:16:25] on this side? They should be on that side and bloody up my mic. And she got up. This [00:16:30] was the first nurse, first patient of it. She got up, she went to the boss and she quit her [00:16:35] job there and they’re no. Yeah. And and it turned out [00:16:40] like obviously the boss wasn’t happy. He came over to me. He said, what the hell did you do like for spaceship. [00:16:45] Yeah. But it turned out there was a history. You know, there was there was a history. And then she [00:16:50] came back and all that. He was sure.

Speaker1: That broke the camel’s back.

Speaker3: Yeah, [00:16:55] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing I’m interested in, the question I want to ask you, you said your PSC, you did all these cool [00:17:00] subjects like psychology or philosophy or whatever. I didn’t quite remember. But what did they give [00:17:05] you? Did did they give you something that the rest of us didn’t get that they would have [00:17:10] right?

Speaker1: To be honest, I don’t particularly believe so. No, I was just no, [00:17:15] I to be honest, I don’t particularly believe so because I did philosophy of the mind, which [00:17:20] is a lot of Rene Descartes. I think therefore I am type thing, and I can’t [00:17:25] think of a single instance where that has benefited me since, if [00:17:30] I’m completely honest. It’s funny you should say that.

Speaker3: It’s funny you say that because my previous guest [00:17:35] on this pod, it hasn’t come out yet. But Chris Tavares, he he based on [00:17:40] Descartes, he he stopped practising dentistry. Oh, really? And [00:17:45] for six years he went. He became like a Jesuit monk. Wow. [00:17:50]

Speaker1: So we had completely lost track of this whole thing.

Speaker3: He got [00:17:55] more out of it than you.

Speaker1: I got nothing from it at all. Like, [00:18:00] sorry, Descartes was not. Yeah, it was not for me. I think a lot of it. I found it, [00:18:05] too. Mind bending.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: And too many.

Speaker3: Words.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:18:10] And I didn’t get this. I know a lot of. I remember when I started the course, they said half of you [00:18:15] will start this and think you know who you are. And by the end of it you’ll have no idea. And [00:18:20] I just remember leaving thinking, I have no idea what I’ve learned this whole time. And [00:18:25] the it was. But it was an interesting reading list. And, you know, I can [00:18:30] say that I learn about these interesting philosophers, but I haven’t thought about them since. [00:18:35] So the one I really did particularly enjoy was space medicine and extreme environment [00:18:40] physiology. Wow. Which was really good. And they get lectures from NASA [00:18:45] to come over. So it’s the only course in the UK that’s doing this. So they receive students [00:18:50] from other universities just to come and do this course at UCL. And that was really [00:18:55] interesting.

Speaker3: So so was that was there space dentistry as well?

Speaker1: Space toothbrushing there [00:19:00] wasn’t space dentistry actually, but I liked the bone physiology element of it because we [00:19:05] learned about what happened to the bone in space and as well as the whole body and not just space, [00:19:10] obviously. Extreme environment. So extreme cold, extreme heat, high altitude, deep sea. And it [00:19:15] was really, really interesting, fascinating, um, module to do. So I think that but that’s more like a party trick for me. [00:19:20] I start pulling out facts. You know, but in terms [00:19:25] of like my career and life, no, I just enjoyed my time at UCL. It’s a lovely university. So. [00:19:30]

Speaker3: So then you eventually got into dental school?

Speaker1: It did? Yes.

Speaker3: At the [00:19:35] Royal London.

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker3: Tell me, what were you like as a dental student?

Speaker1: I [00:19:40] was overwhelmed, if I’m completely honest. We all were.

Speaker3: We all were.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:19:45] I feel like there are people who who took it better than I did. Because undergraduate [00:19:50] for at UCL, it was an absolute walk in the park, [00:19:55] completely compared to dentistry. I think in my second year I had a summer holiday that was about four months [00:20:00] long. Wow. I and I went to America and I remember thinking, because this is when again, my parents were still [00:20:05] working for the UN and at this point they were based in New York. So I went to America for the summer, and I remember thinking, [00:20:10] I’m sure I’ve been here more than I’ve been at university. And, um, so I had really [00:20:15] long holidays. I used to have maybe 810. Hours of lectures a week [00:20:20] and the rest of self-directed study. So I was very self-motivated, but at the same time it was [00:20:25] not intense in the slightest. And coming to dentistry was an absolute shock to my [00:20:30] system. And I was like, what is this? I thought I had done university, I had not done university at all. So [00:20:35] I found that quite overwhelming. And I had quite an active social life [00:20:40] at UCL, but I felt like I was drowning in dentistry, so I just completely just stopped having [00:20:45] social life. I just felt like I had to study, study, study, study and, you know, above [00:20:50] average intelligence. But I’m not the most intelligent. So I just have to work hard essentially to get the [00:20:55] same place as other people do. And yeah, I was just constantly studying, [00:21:00] didn’t have a life. I was really overwhelmed. And I realised now I didn’t really have great study techniques as well because that’s another [00:21:05] thing that’s not really taught. I think study techniques are really important, but I really had nobody, [00:21:10] even though both my parents had gone to university. My dad has got PhD, nobody [00:21:15] taught me study techniques. And I realised and I look back now, I had really terrible study techniques, [00:21:20] just a lot of rote repetition, you know, reading, rewriting that was just not getting me anywhere [00:21:25] and just was based on loads of man hours. So I just yeah, [00:21:30] I spent most of Dental school feeling overwhelmed.

Speaker3: And which which aspect particularly overwhelmed [00:21:35] you? Was it the preclinical or clinical or both?

Speaker1: I think a bit of both, because [00:21:40] if you’re either reading a book or you’re doing it practically. So it’s not like a lot of other [00:21:45] courses where you can just learn the theory. It’s just like you have to do the theory, but you actually have to physically do it as [00:21:50] well. So there’s an added element that a lot of people just don’t grasp unless you have a practical, [00:21:55] unless you do a practical course like dentistry or obviously skills like carpentry and things like that, where you have [00:22:00] to physically do the thing. So it’s very akin to that. But I feel like the intensity [00:22:05] of what we learn on the theory side makes it harder as well, with the [00:22:10] additional high, detailed, physic like physical skill that you need as well.

Speaker3: Yeah. Of [00:22:15] course. And then so you okay. You I mean, I think as a, as [00:22:20] a graduate student, you’re in a way sort of more mature anyway, right? Yeah. You [00:22:25] know, we got into dental school 18 like a total child. Total child. And [00:22:30] um, I remember there were a couple of graduates on my, in my year and they were I felt [00:22:35] like they, they were studying more, more in an adult way as well. I’d never thought they were being [00:22:40] over, over, over. Maybe they were. Yeah. But okay. So so out [00:22:45] of dental school, how clear were you about what kind of dentist you wanted to be?

Speaker1: And because [00:22:50] of my experience working as a dental nurse, I thought I would just be an NHS dentist. I’m [00:22:55] very much, as I said on my profile, a do gooder. I’m all about doing good for people and [00:23:00] serving people, and I thought I would be the kind of dentist who just goes out there and meets [00:23:05] the needs of the people. So I just had a vision of working on the NHS for the entirety of my career. [00:23:10] But the difference of working is it dental nurse versus [00:23:15] when I actually started working, is that they just don’t actually meet up with. [00:23:20] The reality of serving the people well, is what I found in my experience of NHS dentistry. [00:23:25] My first year was obviously and I did that in Southampton and that was fine [00:23:30] because, you know, you don’t really have targets, you don’t really have goals. You’re just trying to like be surefooted [00:23:35] clinically and get comfortable with the environment. But my first year [00:23:40] post vet, I worked for a corporate which I won’t name the name, but it was not [00:23:45] a great experience and they had ridiculous targets, really ridiculous pressures. If I didn’t [00:23:50] do a band three on every child that came through my surgery, I got called in to the clinical, [00:23:55] the area manager’s office. Wow. They were giving me daily targets to refer [00:24:00] to the hygienist privately in a very NHS area. And I just thought, I [00:24:05] can’t force these people. They don’t have the money to do that, you know, and they’re entitled to this treatment on the NHS. [00:24:10] So this is not something I’m comfortable doing. So I was there to just meet the needs and I was put given [00:24:15] all these targets and expectations, which I thought were unethical. And I found it, I [00:24:20] found I really struggled there.

Speaker3: What year was that?

Speaker1: That was in 2012. [00:24:25]

Speaker3: Yeah. I think, you know, the corporates back then [00:24:30] were really clueless.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker3: A very different now by the way, [00:24:35] very different. Now, I know I come across people who on purpose leave independent [00:24:40] practices and go to corporates, okay. Because they know what they’re going to get. You know, at [00:24:45] least with the corporate, you know, what you’re going to get. You can you can talk to other other people [00:24:50] in the corporate. And the other thing they’ve realised is losing a dentist is the most expensive thing that can happen [00:24:55] to a dental practice. And, you know, in the end, their businesses. It’s surprising [00:25:00] because I’ve heard so many terrible stories about corporates from back [00:25:05] in that time, you know, um, go on. What happened next?

Speaker1: So [00:25:10] I did that for just under a year. So I was the dentist who stayed the longest, as you said, [00:25:15] can’t keep losing dentists for a practice is very expensive. And I didn’t read the contract thoroughly, and I actually had [00:25:20] a leaving clause in there. If I left in less than a year, they took a few thousand from me, and [00:25:25] that’s exactly what they did. But at that point I was just beyond done. So I just thought, [00:25:30] take the money, I’m going to go. So I worked, moved on to an independent mixed practice, and [00:25:35] I was there for, you know, in Portsmouth. So I’d stayed in the area where I did my best. So [00:25:40] I worked there for a few years and yeah, I was that was fine. That was more what I was expecting. [00:25:45] I was there to just to meet the need and, you know, serve the people. And yeah, I had a good time [00:25:50] there and I really grew clinically. I think I left that role in the end just because I didn’t want to [00:25:55] be in Portsmouth anymore. And I wanted to move back to London.

Speaker1: Yeah. So eventually I moved back to London. [00:26:00] I worked in a lovely practice just outside of London, but then I found myself quite isolated because [00:26:05] by that point a lot of my friends had moved out of London. A lot of my family had moved out of London. So [00:26:10] I just thought, I don’t know what I’m doing here. And London is such a big city. It’s very hard to feel lonely. It’s very easy. [00:26:15] Sorry to to to get lonely there. And I my, like I said, because my family is so international. [00:26:20] My brothers had emigrated to America, my cousin emigrated to America. Everyone’s just all over the place. [00:26:25] So I felt quite isolated. So I decided to leave London again. And this time I went to Leeds because [00:26:30] I had a good one of my best friends from um, university, from my first degree actually, [00:26:35] who also ended up being a dentist. I convinced her to do dentistry. I told her that she’s away and [00:26:40] she ended up being a dentist, and her boyfriend ended up being a dentist as well.

Speaker4: How funny.

Speaker1: So [00:26:45] she said, Come to Leeds. It’s, you know, the pastures are green here. And so I [00:26:50] went to Leeds and I. And just as I went to Leeds, I started dating my husband [00:26:55] who I’d met in Portsmouth.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker1: So the timing was terrible. So we did the long [00:27:00] distance thing for a year and a bit and we thought, actually, this is not great long [00:27:05] terme. So I decided to move back to Portsmouth just because I already had friends there. He’d been there for a long time, [00:27:10] so I found myself back in Portsmouth.

Speaker3: So you didn’t actually go to Leeds?

Speaker1: I did, so I lived [00:27:15] in Leeds for a year and we did long.

Speaker4: Distance for one year.

Speaker1: And then yeah, he toyed with moving to [00:27:20] Leeds, but it made more sense for me to move back to Portsmouth because I already had a life there as well.

Speaker3: Is he a dentist [00:27:25] too?

Speaker1: He’s not. No, he is a recruitment consultant. And does property investing.

Speaker4: Okay okay [00:27:30] okay.

Speaker1: So then so then I ended up back in Portsmouth. I [00:27:35] worked went back to the the previous NHS practice that I was at. So we had a really good relationship. [00:27:40] I told him I was coming back and he said please come back. So I said okay and I went [00:27:45] back to that job. At the same time, I also decided to apply for a private job. So I started my first [00:27:50] private role part time and the loveliest little practice in Portsmouth. And [00:27:55] um, that was a really interesting position because six months after joining, the principal actually had a stroke, unfortunately. [00:28:00] Well, and it was run, it was, uh, just a two surgery practice. The principal, [00:28:05] his wife was the practice manager and an associate, and he had a stroke. So it became [00:28:10] completely associate led for about two years. So it was predominantly me. And then they hired another [00:28:15] associate just to help them keep it going until they sold it. Unfortunately, he couldn’t go back to work, [00:28:20] so but I had a yeah, a really nice relationship with them and they were really lovely team and [00:28:25] practice to work in.

Speaker3: So this thing you were saying about working in the NHS and [00:28:30] the judging part of that, by this time you’ve gotten over that notion.

Speaker1: I [00:28:35] had I still wanted to do good, but I realised I couldn’t do the good I wanted to do on the NHS. Unfortunately, [00:28:40] because your hands are tied in many aspects and [00:28:45] I didn’t want my hands to be tied, I wanted to offer the people what I thought was [00:28:50] the best and what I thought would be in their best interest, and not be worried about [00:28:55] limitations that the NHS puts on you essentially.

Speaker4: I mean.

Speaker3: Look, this question comes [00:29:00] up. We we had an episode on here called leaving the NHS and it was [00:29:05] the third most listened to episode. Oh really that we’ve done and [00:29:10] we’ve done, you know, 220 episodes. Right. Wow. And it wasn’t [00:29:15] you know, it’s not like the information in it was so amazing that people were passing it to each other. I don’t [00:29:20] think it’s just like it’s just such a hot topic. Right. Leaving the area and, and and you know, what [00:29:25] stops you from leaving the NHS and what you should think of this question that you’re bringing up, sort of the guilt [00:29:30] of leaving the NHS sort of thing. And am I doing good or [00:29:35] not? I think we need a sort of a frank conversation about that. What you just [00:29:40] said about, you know, you want to do good in the correct way without a third party [00:29:45] telling you what to do. Or, you know, I fully understand that. But I think also we [00:29:50] need to be clear that, you know, rich man’s toothache is just as painful [00:29:55] as a poor man’s toothache. Yeah. And then and then you can say, well, okay, [00:30:00] but the rich man’s got resources. He’ll find someone. I want to be there. I want to be there for the poor man. [00:30:05] Okay, good. You want to be there for the poor man? Go do your mum’s work. Yeah. [00:30:10] You know, your poorest patient is probably still in the top 2% of the world’s [00:30:15] sort of, you know.

Speaker4: Chloe. Yeah.

Speaker3: So, you know, I [00:30:20] think there’s a lot of sort of fooling ourselves about this question of, you know, [00:30:25] I don’t think we need to worry ourselves too much with guilt of leaving the NHS. [00:30:30] You know, you want to be the best dentist you can be for the community that you can serve, whoever [00:30:35] that community is. That community could be a 100 billionaires or it could be [00:30:40] whatever you. Everyone needs a dentist.

Speaker4: Yeah, [00:30:45] I don’t have.

Speaker1: I don’t feel guilty about leaving the NHS at all. I think that as [00:30:50] a system, the the faster people leave it, the faster it will get restructured. Because I [00:30:55] don’t think it’s a functioning system. Personally, I think we should just all rebel against it because [00:31:00] it doesn’t serve people at all. It keeps people in ongoing [00:31:05] maintenance that’s not actually adequate for ideal dental health, you know. So [00:31:10] I’m in favour of this whole system being restructured. And I understand that absolutely. [00:31:15] People out there who just do not have the funds to do any better.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Or to do anything else. [00:31:20] And my opinion anyway, is that it should be an urgent care system and it should [00:31:25] then be put into maybe insurance or something like that, which is more realistic, you know, [00:31:30] where you get a better standard of care, because as long as people are not fairly compensated for the [00:31:35] hard, hard work they do, people are always going to find ways to cut corners. And then that person deserves [00:31:40] a good standard of care for what they’re paying is that even though it may not be relatively a lot, but they are still [00:31:45] taking what they have, you know, and giving it to someone and not getting something that actually reflects [00:31:50] a good quality of care.

Speaker4: Mm hmm.

Speaker1: So I think [00:31:55] that, yeah, the whole system needs to be just broken down and redone, and I [00:32:00] feel like the faster people leave it and rebel against it, the faster it would happen. How long has the talk have been [00:32:05] about, you know, redoing the contract? Is it still even been talked about? I don’t know. I stopped [00:32:10] listening.

Speaker3: But you’re right, because the funny thing, when I was a vet in 1996, [00:32:15] my my boss, my boss was talking about let’s go [00:32:20] private first so that when the whole thing falls apart, we’re already private. And [00:32:25] you know, we can be the best private practice. And, you know, we we take it for granted that it would have fallen apart back [00:32:30] then, back then. And the conversations are still going on.

Speaker4: You’re going. Yeah. [00:32:35]

Speaker3: It’s mad. It’s mad. So. Okay, so. But you now live in Bristol. So how [00:32:40] did the story go from Portsmouth to Bristol?

Speaker1: So we lived in Portsmouth for a while. We got married, [00:32:45] we got pregnant and then the pandemic hit.

Speaker4: Okay.

Speaker1: And um, even [00:32:50] though we had both spent some time in Portsmouth and had built a life there, we didn’t have any family [00:32:55] there. And with a young child you realise that actually family is valuable, especially when you’re [00:33:00] hit with such a life changing thing. When you’re isolated and you become [00:33:05] more aware of the value of family and relationships and things like that. And because my family is so [00:33:10] widely dispersed, we leant towards going to where his family is. And he has a [00:33:15] sister in Bristol who has children the same age. So we thought that would be nice. And I grew [00:33:20] up in London with my cousins for a lot of my childhood, and I thought, it’s really nice to have cousins, and they [00:33:25] liked my siblings, so I thought I’d really like my children to grow up with their cousins and have them feel [00:33:30] like they’re siblings. So that’s how we ended up in Bristol. So we followed my sister in law. So she lives here. She’s a nurse [00:33:35] in the NHS. Good for her. And she’s, you know, fighting the good fight and the nursing side and [00:33:40] um, yeah. So her two children are similar ages so. Well, one [00:33:45] slightly older and her second is the same age as my first. So.

Speaker3: So you were actually pregnant during [00:33:50] Covid?

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: So I gave birth. So I was due to [00:33:55] have my baby shower the day that the stay at home orders were given and [00:34:00] I went on maternity leave a month early. So I was meant to start my maternity leave in April, [00:34:05] and I had to start in March. Um, because of. Yeah, because I was so far along [00:34:10] and they just thought, actually, it’s better if you just go home. So that’s what I did. And it’s really funny because my dad is a big [00:34:15] conspiracy theorist. And since from like.

Speaker4: December, take the.

Speaker3: Vaccine and you couldn’t [00:34:20] know.

Speaker1: From December 2019, he was telling me to stay at home.

Speaker4: Oh, really?

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:34:25] And because he’s such a conspiracy theorist, he’s always coming up with something. I just thought, no, no, no, dad, this is another [00:34:30] one of yours. And consistently from December, he’s like, no, you’re pregnant. You’re in a really high risk career. [00:34:35] You need to stay at home, stay at home, stay at home. Every week he would call me and say, you need to go home. And then in [00:34:40] March, I was like, oh yeah, you’re right, I need to go home. So he felt quite vindicated. But of [00:34:45] course he didn’t take the vaccine.

Speaker4: So did you. You. I did yeah.

Speaker3: I thought I thought pregnant women couldn’t [00:34:50] take it. No.

Speaker1: After I had the baby.

Speaker3: Aha. Yeah. So he actually turned out to be [00:34:55] right about the vaccine.

Speaker4: Anyway, [00:35:00] don’t tell him this.

Speaker3: It’s funny. Conspiracy theory is a [00:35:05] funny thing. Yeah, because you’ll find if you come from unstable places where real conspiracies happen. [00:35:10] Yeah. Then then you realise that. That you know what? What can [00:35:15] go down due to conspiracy and. You know, I’m not sure exactly about Cameroon, but [00:35:20] but West Africa in general, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of, uh, you know, conspiracies, [00:35:25] right.

Speaker4: There are there’s a lot going on.

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker3: What happens is you, [00:35:30] you if you really look into it, there are conspiracies here too. They’re just much more. They’re just [00:35:35] much more sort of ingrained in the system. They’re much more difficult to unravel. It’s not [00:35:40] like one guy taking one amount, putting, you know, state funds straight into his bank account [00:35:45] a bit more. It’s a bit more complicated than that.

Speaker4: Yeah, but.

Speaker1: The Cayman Islands first. [00:35:50] Yeah.

Speaker3: Exactly, exactly. So all right, so you [00:35:55] became you went to Bristol, you found a job. What kind of job?

Speaker1: Yeah. So I’m in a private practice. I [00:36:00] actually worked just outside Bristol. I work in street, so it’s about an hour commute. So I [00:36:05] it’s a two hour round trip, which is not too bad. I work part time so it’s two and a half days, so I find [00:36:10] it manageable. Although my principal, he lives not too far from me and he does it every day, so [00:36:15] it’s doable. And yeah, it’s a really lovely family practice. I think he’s owned [00:36:20] it for 15 years or so around that period. And it’s [00:36:25] yeah, completely private and really nice. We’ve got a small NHS contract and [00:36:30] see plan patients as well.

Speaker3: I, I talk to mothers [00:36:35] on this pod who are dentists and when they’re talking about their lives [00:36:40] and their days, it’s the thing that they call sort of me time [00:36:45] is, is like, I don’t know, it’s like sorting out the kids calendar or [00:36:50] something on the tube or anything. The juggle, the juggle, man, [00:36:55] the juggle. Tell me about the juggle. Because because it must be a big juggle. How many days a week are you a dentist?

Speaker1: So [00:37:00] I’m a dentist. Two and a half days and I’m always on a course. So yeah. [00:37:05] Um, I’m currently doing the Simply Endo ten day course, um, [00:37:10] aiming to do the PG cert and hopefully through to MSC. Last [00:37:15] year I did the cath tactics. Um, and [00:37:20] also I haven’t finished that because I was actually pregnant while I was doing that, and I had to leave towards [00:37:25] the end to have my baby. So I need to I still, I need to hand in the cases and finish that one. [00:37:30] But yeah, the juggle is. Depending on the support. So [00:37:35] I can completely say that I could not do this unless my husband was as supportive [00:37:40] as he is. And I’m very fortunate in that he’s very supportive. It helps that he works from home, so [00:37:45] he’s the one who does the nursery jobs. Most of the nursery drop offs, pick ups, if [00:37:50] they get sick, he’s the one who goes in, you know? So a lot of things like that falls to [00:37:55] him, especially since I’m so far away when I am at work and he is at home. So a lot [00:38:00] falls to him and I’m really lucky for his support. And in all of that, even tonight, [00:38:05] he was the one who was mainly putting the kids to bed so that I could get ready for this. So I [00:38:10] think the juggle is made easier or harder by the support system that you have around you. Really. [00:38:15] Um.

Speaker3: But, but, but you know, we I’ve been talking to several people like this. What gives? [00:38:20] Because, you know, work often doesn’t give. You end up, you [00:38:25] end up. It’s not it’s not like you can you’re gonna suddenly call up on a Wednesday morning and say, I’m not coming in for my [00:38:30] patients. That’s just not going to happen.

Speaker4: No.

Speaker3: And and I look, obviously I don’t know you [00:38:35] very well. I know you from your sort of persona, online persona. Right. But you seem to be [00:38:40] sort of on this journey of sort of self-improvement, um, reading [00:38:45] sports, you know, looks, looks like, looks like you’re [00:38:50] taking care of that sort of side of things as well. Can you have it all in, in dentistry [00:38:55] as a woman mother?

Speaker1: I think you can have it all, but not at the same time.

Speaker4: Good. [00:39:00]

Speaker1: That’s absolute reality. So it’s really interesting. You say you look at my persona and it looks like [00:39:05] I’ve got it kind of like I’m doing this, I’m doing that. I’m not doing them all at the same time. And that’s the absolute [00:39:10] reality. So last year, like I said, I had a baby. She’s now nine months and [00:39:15] last year was what I call survival mode. And as much [00:39:20] as I was, I was very silly to do that pgcert while I was pregnant because I was actually exhausted. [00:39:25] Half of it went in and out of my ear because I was too tired. And [00:39:30] you know that always there’s not everything that you can do at once. So [00:39:35] at that time, I was focussed on focusing on, you know, having a healthy pregnancy whilst [00:39:40] trying to maintain my career. But things that let up, for example, was home organisation, [00:39:45] like I just did not have the time or energy to declutter and sort my [00:39:50] children’s toys out or you know, even book them loads of activities and [00:39:55] deal with meals. So I I’m not ashamed to say I don’t like cooking, so I order meals [00:40:00] in for them, like freshly cooked meals, and I just put them in the freezer and that’s what they eat, because I’m just not [00:40:05] the mum who’s going to be at home cooking home cooked meals. That’s just not realistic for my life. When I come home from work [00:40:10] and I start to study.

Speaker1: So something you just have to choose [00:40:15] what it is you’re going to focus your energy on. And for me, as long as I had some quality time with [00:40:20] my children, some quality time with my husband, and was able to [00:40:25] move forward in one of my goals, then that was enough for me. So most of my time, that [00:40:30] one goal that I’m always trying to move forward in is dentistry because there’s always so much to learn. But yeah, things always [00:40:35] give. Like last year, it was definitely self-care and this year I’m trying to have more self-care. I’m trying to [00:40:40] look more at how I eat and how I move my body. Because I started to have aches and pains. [00:40:45] I’m ageing, my knee gives in sometimes and you know, things like that. I need [00:40:50] to start taking care of my body and start exercising and stretching, starting going for massages and things like that. [00:40:55] So I think women can absolutely do everything, but you’ve got to choose what you want [00:41:00] to do, when and what and prioritise according to the time and time scale. Essentially, [00:41:05] I think that’s the most important thing is choosing appropriately and [00:41:10] thinking about timescales, really. And I think back now, there’s so many things that I wish I’d done different [00:41:15] way around. But, you know, hindsight is a great gift.

Speaker3: Like what? Like what? Like what?

Speaker1: I [00:41:20] think I wish I’d focussed more on my studies before I had children. So because I spent [00:41:25] so much time in my BSc, then dentistry when I graduated, [00:41:30] I just spent a lot of time just working and not really thinking where I wanted to go with my career. I [00:41:35] was just working, and actually that would have been the prime time to focus and get my career [00:41:40] where I wanted to be and then have a family. But now I just spent all those years just kind [00:41:45] of like floating about in dentistry, not really knowing where I wanted to go with it. And that’s like I said, partly that’s because I [00:41:50] just thought I’d be churning it out in the NHS for the foreseeable future. And then I realised, actually, this is [00:41:55] not fulfilling for me. It’s not what I want to do. I want to maybe achieve X, Y and Z and [00:42:00] now I’m saddled, not saddled. But now I have the extra responsibilities of two children [00:42:05] and a marriage to maintain and ageing happening to me very slowly. And [00:42:10] it’s just harder. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder, you know? So if [00:42:15] anything, I wish I had done all those things before I had all these additional responsibilities. But, you know, you don’t know what you [00:42:20] don’t know. I didn’t know that this is how I’d feel at this point in my career.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. Especially as, [00:42:25] you know, um, the reason why you want the education is because the other situation wasn’t fulfilling, [00:42:30] and you wouldn’t have known that until you got to that point.

Speaker4: That’s true. Yeah.

Speaker3: I [00:42:35] think not enough people tell you. Maybe it was just me. I know, but the second kid [00:42:40] really messed this stuff up at home.

Speaker4: It really does.

Speaker3: Because you think you’ve had a kid. You’ve had [00:42:45] one kid. You know what kid is? Yeah, yeah, but no one really tells you that. The first kid [00:42:50] kind of. It almost becomes a plus one on the couple. Kind of the couple continue doing [00:42:55] this stuff they used to do. But there’s a kid. Yeah, but the second kid sort of completely [00:43:00] throws that in the air, I find. Really?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: It was just a really [00:43:05] hard adjustment for both of us, really. Probably my husband [00:43:10] more than me because he said, I think a couple times he said it. I guess it’s too late to not do this, isn’t it? [00:43:15]

Speaker4: Funny.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:43:20] We’re here now. Uh, I think we’ve just just moving past that point where it’s absolute [00:43:25] torture to kind of like finding our feet, but it’s still just grinding, [00:43:30] like it really is grinding. And there’s absolutely some people who have the gift of, like, dealing with [00:43:35] multiple children. I am not one of those people. So it’s really hard work for me. [00:43:40]

Speaker4: I think it’s.

Speaker3: Really hard for everyone, though. I think it’s really hard for everyone. It’s it’s not talked about enough, you know, [00:43:45] because look, I see this picture behind you here of you and your son. [00:43:50] Is it. Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: My son.

Speaker3: That’s that’s the image that that that sort [00:43:55] of gets put out about motherhood. It absolutely. Staring, staring into the, [00:44:00] the, the waves or whatever it is holding arm and arm and, um, [00:44:05] the, you know, I think until they figured out how to put their own socks on, you’re in trouble. [00:44:10]

Speaker4: That’s even beyond that. He can put his socks. [00:44:15]

Speaker1: On, but he just.

Speaker4: Won’t stop. Perfect.

Speaker1: It’s an endless [00:44:20] battle. It’s an. And even with, like, with the studying, like I say, I’ll come home from work and I’ll study. And actually, I [00:44:25] find that I find it easier to study on the days that I’ve been at work.

Speaker4: Mhm.

Speaker1: Work is like [00:44:30] restful for me now.

Speaker3: I’ve heard that so many times from others.

Speaker1: It really is on the days that I’m [00:44:35] at home, by the end of the day, I literally have nothing left to study. There’s nothing left. I have [00:44:40] to squeeze all my studying in on the three days that I’m at work, because that’s the only [00:44:45] time when I come home and I feel like I still have some energy because they really just suck it all out of you, [00:44:50] like in the most loving way.

Speaker3: But you know, not everyone who does a course ends up doing all [00:44:55] the reading and all the studying and all that. So. You know, are you are you that person? Are you that [00:45:00] person who’s going to read around the subject 13 times?

Speaker1: I just, like I said, I [00:45:05] just have to work harder than everybody else.

Speaker4: So that’s just my.

Speaker1: Reality and [00:45:10] I’m still improving my study techniques. I’m actually also doing a course on studying, like better studying [00:45:15] because, you know, you can always improve. There’s always better ways to do things. So. [00:45:20] But I think I just like to study I like to learn. My husband’s always saying, this is going to be the last [00:45:25] course you’re going to do. Right? And I’m always like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like six months later I found another one.

Speaker3: So why is that? [00:45:30] Why is that?

Speaker1: I like the knowledge. I think it’s I find interest. And to be fair, [00:45:35] admittedly I think I’m not implementing all of it. So actually one of my 2024 [00:45:40] things is use what I’ve learned because there’s so much, you know, we all go an endless number of courses [00:45:45] and we don’t actually implement a lot of them. So I have all this knowledge, but it’s not being used. [00:45:50] I don’t feel comfortable or confident or, you know, don’t know how to talk about it to [00:45:55] patients. And I just think, actually, I’ve invested all this time and energy and money and hours in the evening [00:46:00] studying. I should actually there are people out there who would appreciate this. I need to go out there and do it. So [00:46:05] but yeah, the moral of the story is I just have to work harder.

Speaker3: And is, is there is there an [00:46:10] element of you want formal studies? I mean, am I studying while I’m listening to a podcast [00:46:15] or that doesn’t count?

Speaker1: No, that does count.

Speaker3: Yeah, that’s I’m studying every night. [00:46:20]

Speaker4: Then there you go. There you go. I’m amazing. Yeah. It’s anything [00:46:25] that is new.

Speaker1: Information is.

Speaker4: Studying. Yeah.

Speaker3: But, you [00:46:30] know, some people are literally course junkies. Some some people are diploma junkie junkies. They [00:46:35] want pieces of paper. Yeah, some people are degree junkies. They want actual, you know, [00:46:40] letters.

Speaker4: Yeah, I.

Speaker1: Was definitely on the degree junkie, but that’s more something that’s [00:46:45] come from my family. My family is very academic. You know, for my dad, the least you could do is a [00:46:50] PhD. So my, my brothers both have masters and he’s pushing them both to [00:46:55] do PhDs. And they’re like, actually, you know, we’re fine with our masters, you know? And um, [00:47:00] when my mom heard I wanted to do, for example, a master’s in endodontics, she’s like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s the thing [00:47:05] to do. So for, for them and it’s the whole African thing, you know, when you have because they were [00:47:10] raised in Africa, they were raised with lack, with, you know, poverty, with seeing people [00:47:15] die for a really simple things just from not having, you know, so for them, [00:47:20] education was a huge door out of all of that. And so education is on a massive [00:47:25] pedestal in our in my family and in my home. So the more letters you have after the [00:47:30] name, the more highly regarded you are in my family basically. So yeah.

Speaker3: I think we can [00:47:35] all sort of sort of relate to the idea of that. But the interesting thing is it’s no longer [00:47:40] education is no longer the one way ticket to success that it used to be. [00:47:45]

Speaker4: Yeah. Absolutely not.

Speaker3: And at the same time, I thought I was kind of immune to all this [00:47:50] by now. And yet when the thing came up in my son, my son’s doing A-levels, [00:47:55] when, when it came up, hey, Oxford and Cambridge. Yeah. And suddenly some part of [00:48:00] me said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you’ve got to do that. Yeah. And, and you know, it’s [00:48:05] within, you know, it’s a bit like you think you think you’re not racist until you realise you’re racist about [00:48:10] something. Yeah. Or you think you’re not sexist until you realise you’re sexist. You know, we all have a certain [00:48:15] bit of all of that in us, but it seems it seems like were you doing all this [00:48:20] to, to kind of fit in to the family thing to do you, did [00:48:25] you want to go and say, hey, mom, dad, guess what? I got a extra degree, you know, like, where [00:48:30] does it come from exactly?

Speaker1: It wasn’t fitting in. It was more that this was just the path that [00:48:35] I had been led down. I didn’t even think of anything else. So I remember when I was applying [00:48:40] for university and years and one of my friends said, oh, I don’t even know if I’m going to go to U.S and that [00:48:45] was the first time that idea that you don’t have to go to university genuinely entered my head. Like, [00:48:50] I’m not even kidding. Like the thought that I’m not going to go into university was never [00:48:55] something that I even. Sexualised because it was such. It was made like [00:49:00] this was the norm in our family, you know, do ABC and then this is the next step and then that’s [00:49:05] the next step. So for them it was school, university, preferably a postgraduate degree as well as [00:49:10] a minimum. So anything other than that was just not normal [00:49:15] to me. So it’s not like I was trying to people please. But this was the my this was my normalcy [00:49:20] essentially. And I didn’t know anything outside of it.

Speaker3: And [00:49:25] then so now now looking at looking at your output, there’s an [00:49:30] element of it that is like sort of inspiring others.

Speaker1: I hope to, yes, because I [00:49:35] think social media is something that’s quite. What’s [00:49:40] the word? Um. Oh, what’s the word when polarising. There we go. Yeah. [00:49:45] Social media is something that’s very polarising, and even I myself can get sucked in in [00:49:50] the bad way. And I think about when I was a student and when I was at university, and how I [00:49:55] didn’t have the pressure of social media and comparing yourself to other people. And because that’s something that I feel [00:50:00] I’m particularly susceptible to comparison and looking at what they’re doing and like, [00:50:05] oh, you know, I should be doing that too. And I really wanted to have a space on social [00:50:10] media where I was where it’s kind of like, you know, your current life is a dream. You [00:50:15] know, you what you do doesn’t matter what everyone else is doing, but actually your current life [00:50:20] is amazing compared to such a large percentage of the world. And I think I think [00:50:25] like that just because, like I said, with my parents job, I’ve been fortunate to go to many of these places where people [00:50:30] really do not have anything. And then, you know, the other day I was telling my husband about this.

Speaker1: I had this big revelation [00:50:35] because I have a Range Rover, and I was having issues with it and I was getting really angry with [00:50:40] it, like really angry. I was going back and forth with the dealership and like things were not working. [00:50:45] And then one day I just thought, oh my God, yeah, if this thing never gets fixed fixed, I’m okay [00:50:50] with it. Because here I am being angry that my luxury car is not luxurious enough. You [00:50:55] know, where there’s people out there who literally don’t have food to eat? I was like, what a ridiculous thing to spend so much [00:51:00] energy being angry about. Like, what is my life? You know? And once [00:51:05] you start to get that bit of perspective, you’re like, this is not the thing. Like, it’s okay to be angry, [00:51:10] but this is not the thing to spend your energy being angry about. You know, there’s actually real [00:51:15] issues in the world where you need to spend your your energy being angry about, not because you’re luxury [00:51:20] car is not being working the way you want it to, you know. And I just thought I realised [00:51:25] how ridiculous I was being in that moment.

Speaker4: And where did it come from?

Speaker3: This, this, this question [00:51:30] of sort of inspiring others and, you know, like teaching other people how to [00:51:35] live sort of thing, how to how to improve themselves. But I don’t understand where that thread started [00:51:40] in your, in your career.

Speaker4: Like it’s more what.

Speaker1: I would have liked for myself. So [00:51:45] I kind of try and share for other people what I would have liked for myself, because in the early [00:51:50] years of my career, I was very unsure of everything. And I think there’s still lots of elements that I’m [00:51:55] still unsure about. But actually, like I said, I realise how far I’ve come and I want to help other people [00:52:00] get to that place as well. Now, at the moment I just don’t have time to put out stuff with [00:52:05] children, but I really hope to show people that actually [00:52:10] where they are at the moment is great, and what they have within themselves is also great, [00:52:15] you know, and they have everything they they need already [00:52:20] to be great, and all they need to do is put it in place and start walking in it. [00:52:25]

Speaker3: Look, this, this thing you were saying about social media being polarising and making [00:52:30] you feel sort of worse about yourself. I got that feeling from [00:52:35] your page.

Speaker4: Oh, really? Yeah.

Speaker3: Because she just seemed so successful. Man, you seem like [00:52:40] you’re living your best life, and and I. And I see you, by the way. I [00:52:45] get it right. It’s so that’s just Instagram. Yeah. Yeah it is, but but I [00:52:50] see you, you know, one moment writing a sort of motivational quote. Next moment [00:52:55] you’re stretching in the gym or something, next moment you’re with your kids, [00:53:00] next moment you’re talking about teeth whitening. Yeah. And I think, well, God, like this [00:53:05] is, this is a person who’s clearly busier than I am and yet still gets time to, you know, [00:53:10] go to the gym and look after a kid. Yeah. Extras. You’re doing so much more than me. You’re doing so much more [00:53:15] than me sort of feeling. Yeah. Now, I’m not a mother and I’m not, you know, I’m not even directly comparable [00:53:20] to you. Yeah, but what you said before, where you see other people and you think that’s [00:53:25] competitive nature comes out and it’s for [00:53:30] it’s one of the downsides of it, for sure, of social media that makes you [00:53:35] end up comparing. And then the weird thing is, like, [00:53:40] you get the people who I’ve got a couple of friends who have private jets [00:53:45] right now, I’ve never seen a picture of their private jet on their social media. [00:53:50] Never. Yeah. And then you get all these other people.

Speaker4: On on.

Speaker3: Private [00:53:55] jets and they’re like, you know, like people put this sort of different side of.

Speaker4: Themselves. [00:54:00]

Speaker3: Forward. Right. But now in your in your work, in your, in [00:54:05] your life and, you know, someone as busy as you nine month old kid, do [00:54:10] you think going forward, as the kids grow up, that you’re going to lean more into this sort of trying [00:54:15] to teach or inspire or, you know, do that stuff? It looks like looking at your [00:54:20] output, it looks like that’s the direction you’re going.

Speaker1: To be honest, I think I’m gonna [00:54:25] spend more time pursuing what my true passions are and bring people [00:54:30] along on the journey. Aha! And if people are inspired by that or [00:54:35] are looking to go on similar journeys, then that’s what I’m there to support. Because as you said. It’s always [00:54:40] a persona. And even in that and it’s funny you say that, but that’s not what I was trying to [00:54:45] portray.

Speaker4: You know, you’re just putting.

Speaker3: Down, you know, bits of your life, right?

Speaker4: Exactly.

Speaker1: But it’s it’s funny [00:54:50] how different things perceive. Different people perceive what you put online and what they [00:54:55] take from it themselves. So yeah, it’s but yeah, my goal essentially [00:55:00] isn’t to tell people how to live or teach them how to live, really, [00:55:05] it’s to help them kind of like reach within themselves. Yeah. [00:55:10] And do what they want to do, because that’s what I’m trying to do for myself all the time. I think one of my posts [00:55:15] I put recently is about how I’d taken a break from social media, because I was getting too influenced by [00:55:20] other people and getting really distracted on what I wanted to do, and I just needed to [00:55:25] take some time to reflect on actually what was important to me and, and focus [00:55:30] on those things. And in the same way, I hope people will not look at my page and think, oh, [00:55:35] I want to do what she’s doing, but be more, be like, if that’s something, that’s also something I want to do, [00:55:40] let me see how she’s doing and see if I can learn anything from there, you know. But how do we do that? [00:55:45] How do we be authentic without making people feel bad? That’s the challenge of social media, [00:55:50] you know?

Speaker3: And it’s not up to you. It’s not up to you to stop people feeling bad. You know, [00:55:55] in the end, you know, you’re busy person, you’re posting whatever, you’re posting this, [00:56:00] you know, it’s just a side effect of it. You know, it’s one of those things. So your your [00:56:05] parents or your mum, particularly UNHCR, um, what are some of the things [00:56:10] that you’ve learned from her? And um, you’ve, you’re doing some charity [00:56:15] work. Dental charity work as well.

Speaker4: Yes.

Speaker1: Yeah. So I think the biggest thing that I [00:56:20] learned from my mother is how privileged I am. Yeah, really, from all the places that [00:56:25] she’s been, she’s told me some of the horrendous stories that she’s had to deal with and come to terms with. So [00:56:30] she started off as a refugee lawyer in refugee camps. You know, she would deal with just women [00:56:35] who were displaced and and getting raped in refugee camps and advocating for them. Then she moved on [00:56:40] to advocating for groups of people. Then she would tell me more individualised stories, for example, [00:56:45] children who would be unwell, and then they would get moved around internationally to get some treatment, and then for several [00:56:50] of them would die before they’d managed to get the treatment. So there’s really like people who are having such struggles. And then you look [00:56:55] at your life and you think, actually, I’m so privileged. So that’s I think the biggest takeaway from my parents job [00:57:00] is recognising my privilege. And what a like a great life [00:57:05] I have. It’s it’s difficult to you can forget that easily. But yeah. And I think that was the biggest thing. And [00:57:10] also the desire to make any change that you can do for, for [00:57:15] the world because you think, who am I am such a little person, what can I do? But you know, when she said [00:57:20] to me, here’s an opportunity, here’s what you can do. I’ve laid out the road for you. Will you [00:57:25] come? You know. And I was like, well, why would I say no? You know, so she she [00:57:30] made the introductions. She, you know, said, here’s a camp, here’s someone you can work [00:57:35] with. Here’s a place you can work here are the people needing help, you know.

Speaker4: What are the details? [00:57:40]

Speaker3: What were the details?

Speaker1: So basically, we went to a refugee camp in Malawi. So it’s [00:57:45] the biggest refugee camp there. It’s called Zalika and it’s been there for over 25 years. And they had not had any [00:57:50] dentists in the entire time that the camp had been there. Because unfortunately, the UN sees dentistry [00:57:55] is a luxury. So they provide medical care, but they don’t provide any dental care because obviously the funds [00:58:00] are stretched. So a lot of the people there who have [00:58:05] dental pain or abscesses are they’re just on a rotation of antibiotics basically. [00:58:10] How long terme. So the first time I went, she was [00:58:15] what we call the UN representative from Malawi. So in Malawi she represented UNHCR. [00:58:20] So she was completely in charge of refugee camps. So it gave her a more leeway to do what she wanted [00:58:25] essentially. So she said, okay, why don’t you go in and have a look? So I went there and I did first a screening [00:58:30] program, and I just looked at what the need was before I decide what I needed to come [00:58:35] and do. And I just saw the vast majority of them just needed extractions. And [00:58:40] you had children that had been on like courses of antibiotics for years, basically [00:58:45] on cycles. It’s just really tragic. And so I planned and a [00:58:50] year later I came back with a team of dentists and we went to. So Zuleikha is [00:58:55] the biggest camp. And then they have another smaller camp called Luani. And we did both camps and we were there [00:59:00] for about a week each time, and we just did extractions back to back, no X-rays, no anything. [00:59:05] You’re just doing it. But I was the way it all came together was really amazing. I had an [00:59:10] oral surgeon who came from Egypt, and so she was our failsafe [00:59:15] if anything went wrong. Uh, because like I said, we didn’t have access to X-rays. So [00:59:20] you’re just going for it and hoping that you can get the majority of the tooth out.

Speaker4: Did you have dental.

Speaker3: Dental chairs [00:59:25] and dental?

Speaker4: No, no dental chairs.

Speaker1: So it was in Zalika. They have a medical [00:59:30] centre. So we were working in the medical centre. So they had beds, and I essentially made a list of [00:59:35] equipments that I asked all the dentists to bring, and they just came with their torchlights and I bought loads of. Extraction [00:59:40] equipment from Dentaid, and that was pretty much all we had. And they had a steriliser in [00:59:45] the medical department. So fortunate we were able to use their steriliser. Um, but that’s pretty much [00:59:50] it. So head torch forceps and a translator and we went for it.

Speaker3: And have you got [00:59:55] numbers like in the week? How many teeth did you take out?

Speaker1: So I think we tallied up, we took [01:00:00] over 2 to 300 teeth out.

Speaker4: A week.

Speaker1: In that week. Yeah.

Speaker4: Oh my. [01:00:05]

Speaker3: God.

Speaker1: It was just back to back extractions all day long. And then for for the [01:00:10] ones who had, you know, treatments that we weren’t able to complete in that week because the abscesses [01:00:15] were too large or just, you know, could not be managed in our makeshift clinic, the [01:00:20] dental office still in Lilongwe, which is the capital city. So the camp is outside of the capital [01:00:25] city, and the refugees are not actually allowed to go into Lilongwe. They have to stay [01:00:30] within the camp, and some of them have been there their whole lives, so they could literally be there ten, 20 years and [01:00:35] can never leave the camp unless they move on to their permanent home. And a lot of them get stuck [01:00:40] there. So while we were there, the I went to the hospital [01:00:45] in Lilongwe and they agreed to accept referrals from us. So we were able to refer the [01:00:50] most urgent children who needed more advanced care, essentially, but they [01:00:55] wouldn’t take any adults just because they were overwhelmed as well with just their general populations, but they were willing to [01:01:00] see the children.

Speaker3: So what was the what was the story of the people who [01:01:05] ended up in the refugee camp? Because, you know, my my, my cousin [01:01:10] works, my wife’s cousin works for the UN and and she said that, [01:01:15] you know, it depends on where it is and all that. But the sort of the link between, [01:01:20] you see, we talk about a refugee as if that’s what they’ve always been. [01:01:25] But she she was telling me that there was there was a doctor [01:01:30] and a lawyer in Syria, and their eight year old kid couldn’t [01:01:35] read and write because of the war. They hadn’t had a managed school, and they’d ended up in a refugee [01:01:40] camp, you know, now. Okay, rewind three years back, that was a doctor [01:01:45] and a lawyer in a city somewhere that ended up in this refugee camp. And, you [01:01:50] know, in the same way as, I mean, we see we see these pictures coming out of Gaza, right? People walking, [01:01:55] walking the streets that they didn’t always walk the streets, they had houses or.

Speaker4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [01:02:00]

Speaker3: Or even even even down to, I mean, this totally different thing. But you [01:02:05] see, an old person in the street wasn’t always an old person. It was a young was [01:02:10] a young person.

Speaker4: Young thing. Once upon a time.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What [01:02:15] are the stories like? How did they end up in these camps? And what are some of the stories that sort of stuck with you?

Speaker1: A [01:02:20] lot of them were fleeing conflict. Naturally. Africa, unfortunately, [01:02:25] is just strife with conflict. There’s a long colonial non colonial history behind that that we [01:02:30] just don’t need to go into. But the vast majority of them were fleeing conflict. [01:02:35] You do obviously also have some economic migrants as well and they just get stuck in Malawi. [01:02:40] So Malawi was a lot of them a transit point. A lot of them were aiming to get to [01:02:45] more industrialised countries in Africa. So along, for example, the east Kenya [01:02:50] is doing quite well, Tanzania is doing quite well. Some of them were aiming to go further down south [01:02:55] to South Africa and Namibia, Zimbabwe, and they just get stuck in Malawi essentially. [01:03:00] And I don’t know exactly what the processing process in Malawi is, [01:03:05] but I know that a lot of them find that they’re not able to leave, they’re not able to go back to where they [01:03:10] were coming from, and they’re not able to join society in Malawi because the Malawi is overwhelmed. [01:03:15] So they get stuck in this limbo point where they’re not essentially living, [01:03:20] they’re not moving forward, but they’re not going back. And it’s just a really. So that’s I found that a lot of them had were just [01:03:25] despondent because they had been there for so long and they didn’t know where where they were going next, [01:03:30] essentially. So Malawi is a great country and that it does accept refugees [01:03:35] in quotas. But they were just, I think, [01:03:40] 24,000 refugees in that camp.

Speaker3: And is what tents, literally tents.

Speaker1: Some [01:03:45] of them are houses, some of them are tents. But because it’s been there for so long, it’s got more infrastructure [01:03:50] to it. So there are schools in there and things like that. But you know, it’s still not a proper [01:03:55] city. It’s because it’s it’s a size of a city, you know. Yeah. Um, but [01:04:00] it’s still not, you know, they still don’t have proper services. And like I said, they have this medical centre which [01:04:05] is running on bare minimum with the funds from the UN, which they have to stretch, you [01:04:10] know, across a lot of services. So it’s really a half life essentially, which is [01:04:15] quite tragic. And a lot of them were heading there either leaving, as you said, good [01:04:20] lives, hoping just to find a place of safety or where we’re going from lack [01:04:25] and finding themselves in another position of lack, not having moved any further forward [01:04:30] in their hopes and their dreams. So.

Speaker3: And you must have you’re busy, dentist, mother and [01:04:35] all that, but you must have had moments where you thought if I had resources. What [01:04:40] would be sort of the best way of using them for these sort of situations. I [01:04:45] mean, I’ve got one friend. He was he was saying, look, if you could many, many of us [01:04:50] as dentists and doctors would give up 1 or 2 weeks of, of our, of our year [01:04:55] to do something like this. If there was a nice, organised way of doing it, you know, if. Yeah, [01:05:00] if and he was looking to do that, he was looking to set up a website and, and so forth, and then, and then [01:05:05] he realised he did that, he did that in medicine. And then he realised that, [01:05:10] you know, there’s an aspect of it that is almost still selfish, insomuch [01:05:15] as, hey, it’s nice for us to do a bit of charity work as, as well about it.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Feel good [01:05:20] about ourselves. Yeah. But you know, when they did the study on what would give the best [01:05:25] outcomes, it was training people out there.

Speaker1: Exactly. So the goal [01:05:30] of my charity had three arms essentially was outreach because you need to give practical help immediately. [01:05:35] But actually there was an education aspect and a future aspect as well. So I had [01:05:40] three arms in my plan. So this all happened before I had children. So my outreach trip was in [01:05:45] 2016, 2017, and my goal had been to do annual [01:05:50] trips to give, you know, immediate urgent relief, but also to do training [01:05:55] trips and to train local dental health care advisors who could deal with basic situations. [01:06:00] And I also wanted to set up a dental scholarship as well to help train dentists [01:06:05] in locally, because there’s a huge element with charity work, especially [01:06:10] coming from the Western world. When you’re doing charity tourism, you know you’re going and you’re leaving [01:06:15] and you know you feel good yourself. You’re like, oh, I’ve done this wonderful thing. But actually, what lasting impact is [01:06:20] there? It’s great to help a few people. But you know what Long Terme is, is there. And [01:06:25] places like dent are great because they have got long terme roots in places. Yeah. [01:06:30] And they, you know, they go back repeatedly. And one of the things I wanted to do was to set up something where we go back [01:06:35] repeatedly and have relationships and not just, you know, it’s not just a one time thing. You know, you’d [01:06:40] want people who would say, I can commit to doing this once a year for the foreseeable future, for example. [01:06:45] Right. It’s not about you. It’s about what change you’re putting, what foundations [01:06:50] of change you’re putting in. But children just derailed all of that.

Speaker4: Have [01:06:55] you have you heard of.

Speaker3: Have you heard of effective altruism?

Speaker1: No, I haven’t actually.

Speaker4: I just [01:07:00] had.

Speaker3: A kind of a bad name recently because that guy, um, Sam Bankman-Fried from the, you [01:07:05] know, the crypto thing, he, he was really into it. But but what it means is I from [01:07:10] what I understand, what it means is that look, the okay going going to the camp [01:07:15] and taking the teeth out and the gratitude of that patient who’s now out of pain and [01:07:20] that makes us feel good. And what you just said about tourism, you know, charity, tourism. But [01:07:25] effective altruism says, you know, what would be the most effective thing for you, you [01:07:30] to do. Yeah. So let’s say it’s you. Actually, the most helpful thing for you to do [01:07:35] would be to earn loads of money as a private dentist and give them money to [01:07:40] local dentists to go and buy locally, whatever, you know, whatever [01:07:45] it is. Yeah. And it’s a funny thing. It’s an important thing that we need to understand that our motivation. [01:07:50]

Speaker4: Absolutely.

Speaker3: Yeah. At the same time, your insight that you’ve got [01:07:55] into it from your mom’s work.

Speaker1: That’s what I mean. I’m in a.

Speaker4: Unique position because.

Speaker1: I have a lot of open doors. And [01:08:00] that’s why I think.

Speaker4: For you.

Speaker1: It’s it’s it would be remiss of me not to use them because I have [01:08:05] access to so many people that other people just don’t have. Like because of her role [01:08:10] in the UN, she can connect me to a lot of important people all over Africa who have [01:08:15] access to these refugee camps, you know? So it would be that’s why I feel quite [01:08:20] burdened by it’s a waste of my connections, essentially not to do something, even if I, I can’t [01:08:25] physically go there at the moment, but even it’s just to set up relationships and just to say, you know, what can [01:08:30] we support with. That’s what I’m currently trying to do. So my one of the things I want to do this year is revamp the charity and [01:08:35] actually just start to say, maybe as an element of effective altruism, [01:08:40] what can I do now without me physically coming there that is going to support advancing [01:08:45] the chair? So for example, with our last trip, when we left, we found local dentists and we gave away all [01:08:50] our equipment.

Speaker4: Nice.

Speaker1: Uh, there. So we didn’t bring anything back. We gave it to the dental hospital [01:08:55] in Lilongwe, and we gave it to a local dentist who who found out about our trip online. And he travelled [01:09:00] quite far because he said he literally had nothing, you know. So we gave him all our equipment [01:09:05] and it’s just, you know, things like that. And I think everyone has specific sets [01:09:10] of skills or connections or something that they use, and I’m just trying to use what I have [01:09:15] to the best that I can. But it’s challenging.

Speaker3: Of course. And what was the name of the [01:09:20] charity? Did it have a name?

Speaker1: Yeah. So it’s called Oral Health Africa. It’s on Instagram. I’ll tag it. [01:09:25]

Speaker3: Oh, excellent. Excellent. I’ll take it in the thing as well. Let’s let’s get back to dentistry. [01:09:30] Your job now. Um, what is it? Fully private.

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:09:35] so 100% fully private. We see NHS kids and plan patients. [01:09:40]

Speaker3: Okay. And the practice is is it, is it what I would imagine a [01:09:45] fully private practice in around in and around Bristol to be is it very nice and [01:09:50] slow and so forth or what is it like, what kind of practices.

Speaker4: It’s actually quite busy. [01:09:55]

Speaker1: It’s not as busy as an NHS practice. Nowhere near, but I think [01:10:00] probably compared to other private practices, probably a little bit busier. Mhm. Um, and that’s I [01:10:05] think we’re seeing a lot of the fallout from the kind of like reduction of [01:10:10] NHS pay access. Essentially we’re having a lot of patients who are joining our practice [01:10:15] saying I used to be an NHS patient, I literally cannot find an NHS dentist and they’re having to space [01:10:20] out their treatment because they just can’t afford to pay for it and things like that. So we’re quite inundated with [01:10:25] patients at the moment. So it’s an interesting climate to be working in.

Speaker3: What kind of dentist [01:10:30] are you? Are you general? I noticed you do a lot of facial aesthetics.

Speaker1: I did. [01:10:35] I haven’t done as much recently. When I was in Portsmouth, I was running a facial aesthetics clinic. [01:10:40]

Speaker4: Mhm. Um.

Speaker1: Independently. Then Covid hit and that ended. Um, [01:10:45] and I haven’t really done much with it since then. Since moving to [01:10:50] Bristol, I’ve definitely focussed more on general dentistry. I’m trying to pursue my interests [01:10:55] of orthodontics, endodontics and a little bit of restorative as well. [01:11:00] So those are kind of the three things I’m trying to hang my hat at. But I have the unfortunate [01:11:05] thing that I’m always I have too many legs out. So [01:11:10] I’ve progressed very slowly because I’m doing so many things at once. But yeah, those are the things that I’m interested [01:11:15] in kind of trying to move my career towards. Essentially.

Speaker4: Let’s get to darker days. Oh, [01:11:20] um.

Speaker3: We like to talk about mistakes, errors, um, [01:11:25] maybe your most difficult patient or the biggest [01:11:30] clinical mistake in your view. What comes to mind when I, when I talk, when I ask that question.

Speaker1: Oh, [01:11:35] so I think it would be a difficult patient. And this is one I just really did not know what [01:11:40] to do with. So this is an elderly man when I was living in Portsmouth and [01:11:45] he was just really, really challenging. He really needed help. So [01:11:50] he had loads of rotten teeth that needed removing. He was in pain, but he [01:11:55] was a very abrasive and just rude man. And for me that [01:12:00] was a huge human relations thing to overcome because on the one [01:12:05] side, like I said, I’m I’m such a do gooder. I like to do good. And I thought, this is someone that really needs my help, but [01:12:10] this is someone that I really do not like.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker1: And that was just the harsh reality [01:12:15] of it. I really did not like him and I did not want to see him, but he had been banned [01:12:20] from many practices and almost no one else was willing to see him, essentially.

Speaker3: And you thought you were [01:12:25] the one who’s going to break this?

Speaker4: I thought I was.

Speaker1: The one, and boy, did it come back to bite me in the butt.

Speaker3: Go on [01:12:30] laughing.

Speaker1: So I did clearance for him on the lower arch and made [01:12:35] him dentures. And he was unhappy with the outcome and [01:12:40] he ended up suing me, called the local health board and he [01:12:45] was a serial complainer, so they weren’t surprised to hear from him. [01:12:50] But at the same time, it was a huge period of stress for me to go through that complaints [01:12:55] process. And, you know, it’s always the ones you’re trying to help the most, you know.

Speaker4: That [01:13:00] come back to bite you in the bum.

Speaker1: Yeah. And that. Yeah. It just just because [01:13:05] I already didn’t like him, you know. And I was like, oh, and you have this gut feeling like [01:13:10] I really shouldn’t treat him. But it was really fighting the other side of me, which is like, no, but nobody [01:13:15] else will see him, you know, like, where is he going to go? Somebody needs to see him. And I [01:13:20] should have sent him to the hospital. But there I was.

Speaker3: So go. What can we do? What happened? [01:13:25] What actually happened?

Speaker1: So I he was unhappy [01:13:30] essentially. So the actual clinical treatment went fine in terms of the extractions and [01:13:35] the, you know, the clinical part of it. But the dentures he found uncomfortable, [01:13:40] he just wasn’t happy with them, you know. And we spent several appointments going back and [01:13:45] forth. First of all it was the appearance of them. Next it was the comfort of them. Next, [01:13:50] he can’t talk, he can’t eat. He just didn’t adapt to them. And he was a little bit older. [01:13:55] So it was you know, it was challenging for him to adapt to them. But just the whole process of making [01:14:00] them, you know, he was in the clinic just all the time, you know, back and forth, denture ease, denture adjustment. [01:14:05] We talked about remaking, you know, redoing. But he just thought, no, he didn’t want to go through the whole process [01:14:10] again. And we spent like ages going back and forth with him [01:14:15] like months.

Speaker4: You know.

Speaker3: About you I don’t know about you, but [01:14:20] in my career, I can’t think of that many patients that I did a clearance on [01:14:25] and then made full dentures. I made loads and loads of full dentures for existing [01:14:30] full denture patients. But if you put yourself in that [01:14:35] person’s shoes, it must be a complete nightmare.

Speaker4: Yeah, it’s a complete shock. [01:14:40]

Speaker1: Complete. But he wasn’t able to eat properly anyway because they were making roots, you know? So a [01:14:45] lot of broken teeth are mainly roots. So it’s not like he had much to compare it to, but at the same time, [01:14:50] and he’d been like that for a long time. Um, but.

Speaker4: Yeah, he got a letter from [01:14:55] a lawyer.

Speaker1: Yeah. So he, he complained formally, which was not delightful. [01:15:00] Um, and I and I haven’t had a lot of complaints. You get the little [01:15:05] ones like, oh, I’m not having that. And then you kind of like, you know, deal with it quickly and it doesn’t really go anywhere. But [01:15:10] this was the full, you know, get the indemnity involved, the letters back and forth and it dragged [01:15:15] on like that. Basically him giving details, you know, my indemnity responding [01:15:20] back and forth like that for quite a while.

Speaker3: How long like how long are we talking.

Speaker1: Less [01:15:25] than a year.

Speaker4: Oh, my.

Speaker3: God, as long as I.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:15:30] Um, I can’t remember exactly because it’s quite a while ago now, but it went on for quite a while. What [01:15:35] was the.

Speaker3: Feeling that you had? Was the feeling that you had was that, uh, this guy was [01:15:40] sort of an outlier. Difficult patient. Maybe I should maybe I shouldn’t have jumped [01:15:45] in.

Speaker4: Oh, I completely.

Speaker1: Felt I shouldn’t have.

Speaker4: Done. No no no no no.

Speaker3: But I’m saying maybe I shouldn’t have jumped [01:15:50] in. But, you know, at the end of the day, this was going to happen somewhere along the line with this guy with with someone. [01:15:55] Or was your feeling sort of much, much darker than that, that [01:16:00] you know, you were trying your best? Now this guy saying you weren’t and maybe, maybe you could have treated him better. [01:16:05] Maybe you could have warned him. What was what were you thinking? Was it getting you properly down about the dentist [01:16:10] you were, or was it getting you down about the decision to treat this one patient?

Speaker1: I think [01:16:15] it was probably the decision to treat the one patient because by and large, we’re always doing our best. You [01:16:20] know, if I, I don’t not that I don’t feel bad about my mistakes, but when I [01:16:25] do make mistakes, I don’t I try not to beat myself up about it because it’s not because I’m not trying. It’s [01:16:30] genuine human error. And these things are going to happen, you know? And obviously as you go along in your career, [01:16:35] it should hopefully happen less, but it’s still going to happen. But what I found particularly [01:16:40] difficult is that despite me being my best, trying my best and saying, yeah, here are things that I could [01:16:45] have done better, but I’m still trying my best. That wasn’t good enough, you [01:16:50] know? And I think that’s the bit that really hurts. And that was really difficult to deal with because, like, [01:16:55] I was trying my best for you where a lot of people wouldn’t.

Speaker4: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker1: You know, and [01:17:00] that was yeah, it was more I think again, it’s it’s always the human [01:17:05] relationship element of it that I found difficult.

Speaker4: You know, on, on reflection. [01:17:10]

Speaker3: Apart from not treating him because that you’re saying that’s the [01:17:15] right move, but that would.

Speaker4: Have been the right move.

Speaker3: Yeah, but but apart from that, would you have done something [01:17:20] differently within the within the treatment or within the communication?

Speaker1: Um, [01:17:25] I think maybe I would have made the downsides. Um, [01:17:30] sound worse than they were. You know, they always say under-promise and overdeliver, and I [01:17:35] didn’t under-promise enough. You know, I just thought from someone who hasn’t had [01:17:40] dentures and who’s been in so much pain, this is going to be great. You know, it’s going to be such [01:17:45] a step up from his current situation. That’s the way I kind of looked at it and presented it, and I [01:17:50] it never even crossed my mind that he would be unhappy with any [01:17:55] outcome from where he currently started. And I think that was the difficulty.

Speaker3: It’s [01:18:00] funny prosthetics that there’s such a such a psychological side to prosthetics as well. Um, [01:18:05] I have a bunch of experience with it. I did a house job which had a prosthetic bit [01:18:10] in it. One of my bosses was was. That’s all he did. Um, and then we [01:18:15] had a great teacher in university, and the guy in university, he used to say this, actually, he’d say, say [01:18:20] to your patients that it’s a wooden leg. You know, let them understand.

Speaker4: Really? Good. [01:18:25] Yeah.

Speaker3: And he used to say, so it’s a wooden leg. And eating is [01:18:30] like playing football with a wooden leg. And I guess that’s what he’s saying, isn’t it? Lower expectations. [01:18:35]

Speaker4: Yeah, really.

Speaker1: Like I did not know it enough, but I’m just thinking he’s had abscesses for [01:18:40] so long.

Speaker4: I’m sure he’s just glad.

Speaker1: Yeah, he’s just going to be glad to be pain [01:18:45] free and have something to put some food against. But no, that I [01:18:50] just yeah, I made it sound too great I think.

Speaker3: I’ll [01:18:55] take I’ll take that one. I’ll take that one, I’ll take that one. Because sometimes, [01:19:00] sometimes I, I don’t know what was the outcome. What was the outcome. How did it all end?

Speaker1: Oh, [01:19:05] God. It’s actually quite a horrendous story. Oh, God. Um, he dropped it in the. Oops, sorry. [01:19:10] He dropped it in the end. Um, he just kind of, like, idled away, and he. [01:19:15] But he still wanted to come to see me, which is the difficult part and the practice. And you’re like, [01:19:20] okay, cool, you can come. And then he passed away because like I said, he was older. So that was the end of it. [01:19:25] Yeah. Okay.

Speaker3: That’s that’s that’s that’s that’s a good one [01:19:30] we can all learn from.

Speaker4: Brilliant. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. So it didn’t like in terms of like claim and [01:19:35] everything, it didn’t go anywhere because after all the back and forth he just decided to drop it.

Speaker3: So so [01:19:40] in the preamble, you told me that you kind of decided not [01:19:45] to open a practice.

Speaker4: Um, is.

Speaker3: That your final decision or is that just for now?

Speaker1: No, [01:19:50] no, that’s just for now. Just because I think in this moment of life with children and life [01:19:55] and trying to always move forward, I feel again a little bit overwhelmed. And [01:20:00] opening a practice is just another big hurdle that I don’t know if I want to. And plus, because my husband’s [01:20:05] not a dentist, he’s not really interested at all in doing it with me. I might get convinced him, [01:20:10] but it’s just for him. It’s too much of a learning curve and he doesn’t show [01:20:15] any interest in it. And it’s not something I’d want to do on my own. So. But, you know, we both might change in the future. [01:20:20]

Speaker3: What about a business partner?

Speaker1: A business partner I had thought about. But there’s, you [01:20:25] know, it’s it’s an intimate relationship. And the relationship is very important. [01:20:30] And you’ve I’ve heard about, you know, because I did a little bit of research on it and just the number of failures that [01:20:35] happened because of poor partnerships, you know. So for me, [01:20:40] the only comfortable person I would feel with at the moment is my husband. [01:20:45]

Speaker4: Um, I.

Speaker3: Don’t think you should take those those failure stories too much to [01:20:50] heart, though, because you know well a number of failed [01:20:55] marriages, if you want. If you want, you know what I mean?

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: I don’t know about [01:21:00] you, but I find I’m similar to you in so much as I find it particularly [01:21:05] daunting to start a business by myself, I just there’s so many things I’m bad at that [01:21:10] I just do not. I want someone else to. To help.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Um, [01:21:15] but the question of who that partner should be, actually the, the sort of the received [01:21:20] wisdom on that is in a way, it’s better if it’s a total stranger sometimes. Now, I [01:21:25] can’t live without I can’t I’m like you, I’ve got a fully 100% know [01:21:30] that person. Trust that person. And before I can get into a business relationship with [01:21:35] them. Mhm. Um, but business people, you know, business people, it doesn’t [01:21:40] matter who they’re partnering with. Yeah. They set out expectations at the beginning.

Speaker1: And they want you to meet.

Speaker4: Them. [01:21:45] Yeah.

Speaker3: And, and and they meet them. You know, they say, all right we’re going to meet once a week. We’re going to do this. And, and [01:21:50] um, I think in dentistry we one of the reasons to open a practice [01:21:55] is to have full control, isn’t it. That’s that’s one of the reasons why [01:22:00] associates start practices is to get control. And so in a way, [01:22:05] if if you’re partnering with someone who you’re not aligned with, then you haven’t got control. [01:22:10] So what was the point of opening a practice.

Speaker4: Yeah that’s true.

Speaker3: It’s rare that [01:22:15] people do it for the money. And and often the money isn’t as much as a very, you know, well, [01:22:20] well, well associated with doing very well often. Definitely at the beginning [01:22:25] the money’s not there, but the control piece really is. So, you know, [01:22:30] you’re let’s imagine you run into a Russian billionaire and he says, look, I [01:22:35] trust you. I want you to open our dream practice. I’ll give you the money. I’ll [01:22:40] give you the resources. What kind of practice would it be?

Speaker1: It would definitely be a restorative based [01:22:45] practice, as I said, predominantly focussed on orthodontics, endodontics and just [01:22:50] restoring because I think that’s a lot of people. Even though orthodontics has a huge cosmetic [01:22:55] element, it’s not just cosmetics.

Speaker4: Yes it is. Come on.

Speaker1: It’s not just [01:23:00] cosmetics.

Speaker4: It’s just huge. And that’s the issue.

Speaker1: I’m interested in, like the functional [01:23:05] movements as well, you know, moving teeth to be able to better place a bridge or re intruding [01:23:10] teeth. You know, a number of teeth are taken out in dentures because they’ve over erupted [01:23:15] and things like that, like there is definitely a huge element to that. And yeah, [01:23:20] anyway, it would be a restorative practice. Um, and [01:23:25] it would be very digital, digital technological I love technology. [01:23:30]

Speaker4: Oh do you.

Speaker1: So I love technology. So I always have the newest I try not to [01:23:35] get over to. I’ve got like I live in the Apple world, so I’m all Apple phone, iPad, [01:23:40] Apple Watch. You know, I get everything connected to everything. So [01:23:45] I would have a nice technologically connected practice, get [01:23:50] every CAD cam, everything in the practice, all the scanners. And yeah, that’s the kind of environment [01:23:55] I would work in.

Speaker3: Of all the courses you’ve been to, what were the standout ones?

Speaker1: Oh, [01:24:00] that’s a good one. I went on a really good communications one. Oh I can’t remember [01:24:05] his name. This is terrible. Um. Oh it will come to me [01:24:10] later. I think it’s called the PLP course.

Speaker4: Plp.

Speaker1: Yes. [01:24:15] I cannot remember his name, but it’s not marketed at all. [01:24:20] It was recommended by somebody. It was recommended by Rena, actually, who? I went to university with. The Reno [01:24:25] idea.

Speaker4: Oh. Were you in there? Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah, she she took every award going.

Speaker4: I [01:24:30] heard, I.

Speaker3: Heard that, I heard that.

Speaker1: Yeah, loveliest, loveliest person in [01:24:35] the world. Um, so.

Speaker4: On this.

Speaker3: Podcast as well.

Speaker1: Yeah I know, yeah. Everyone’s [01:24:40] had her everywhere. She is. Yeah. She’s all over and she’s deserves to be because she deserves [01:24:45] everything that she has. She’s worked so hard and is the kindest person ever. Um, [01:24:50] so yeah, Rena recommended and referred me and it’s a, it’s [01:24:55] a communication course. And actually it was really good just about the patient journey and how to interact [01:25:00] and communicate with patients. And it’s just a lot of he breaks it down into really minute [01:25:05] steps and just makes it really reproducible that anyone can do. And [01:25:10] I really enjoyed that course because again, communication is something that is not really focussed enough. [01:25:15]

Speaker3: So one of the nuggets, what were your sort of two three takeaways on [01:25:20] communication that you can teach us?

Speaker4: Oh, okay.

Speaker1: One major takeaway [01:25:25] is agree with the patient. You know you don’t want to [01:25:30] bring negatives into the conversation as much as you can. You reinforce and agree with [01:25:35] whatever they’re saying with you as much as it’s true, obviously, you know, but you want to get [01:25:40] on the same playing field of patient. And one of the good ways to foster [01:25:45] a good environment is by agreeing with people essentially, you know, obviously if it’s something you do not agree with [01:25:50] or it’s factually wrong, then you have to make that clear. But as much as possible, you want to be in [01:25:55] agreeance and repeat their agreement. So I remember one thing on the course is like when they say things, you want to repeat their yes [01:26:00] to them, and it’s just little things, but it helps foster a connection when [01:26:05] people repeat your language. So that was one thing I took away. Another thing was [01:26:10] to match the patient’s energy. So if [01:26:15] someone comes in and they are down, it’s not great to be chirpy. Chirpy. Even if you are feeling [01:26:20] chirpy, you know you need to kind of look at where they are and match your energy [01:26:25] and your mood and your tone and yeah, just everything about you to where they are.

Speaker4: Kind [01:26:30] of like the.

Speaker3: Nlp mirroring thing. Exactly.

Speaker1: Yeah, completely. And so [01:26:35] many times I remember I’ve had to actively do it, and it’s only later on the point where I’ve had to fight. I’ve found out [01:26:40] why. So, you know, someone will come in and they’ll be really surly or quiet or down, and I may be really [01:26:45] happy and laughing and joking with the previous patient, but I think, let me just tone myself down for this patient, and [01:26:50] you’ll find out halfway through the appointment that their husband died yesterday, or, you know, so they don’t need [01:26:55] you laughing and sounding cheery at that moment. You know, they need you.

Speaker4: At their pace [01:27:00] the.

Speaker3: Way they. There are some people who are really good communicators. Right. And so what is [01:27:05] a very good communicator? The person who does that naturally without without even thinking about it. For [01:27:10] the rest of us, we can think about these forces. We can think about it [01:27:15] and adjust ourselves down or up or whatever. I mean, it’s the same as sales training, isn’t it? [01:27:20] There’s the there’s the killer salesman who just naturally can tell what the person [01:27:25] wants and and can. And then there’s the rest of us who have to say, okay. When when there’s [01:27:30] an objection. So think about it like this. Okay. And what [01:27:35] other courses. So that was communication.

Speaker1: That was communication. Um, other stand [01:27:40] out courses. To be honest I’m actually really enjoying the, um, simply undo ten day course. [01:27:45]

Speaker4: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah, I really enjoying it. It’s giving me lots of nuggets. Um, I’m doing it online [01:27:50] because I can’t do anything in person with young children. Yeah. Um.

Speaker3: And [01:27:55] is a hands on element to it as well. Yeah.

Speaker1: So they send you all the, um, equipment. [01:28:00]

Speaker4: Bits?

Speaker1: Yeah. All the bits, um, with the blocks and things like that. And you [01:28:05] need to collect extractor teeth as well. I’m a little bit behind on the, the number of the lectures that I [01:28:10] should be. So I’ve got a few of the, of the sets that I need to work through the practical elements. But yeah, [01:28:15] they send you all the bits. And then I bought a nice little cheap endo motor online and I just [01:28:20] at home, like I said in the evening, I’m just sitting there drilling on my blocks, you know, listening [01:28:25] to the lecture. And it’s just really good nuggets. It’s not just you know.

Speaker3: The [01:28:30] nuggets go on for the general.

Speaker4: Practitioner.

Speaker1: I don’t know if I have enough yet to be honest.

Speaker3: Couple for the general [01:28:35] practitioner.

Speaker1: I think I’m too early I don’t think I have anything. Oh don’t be.

Speaker3: Shy. Don’t be shy. [01:28:40] Go on.

Speaker1: I’m still kind of like working. Okay. Actually, the most important thing I think [01:28:45] that has really impacted my endo so far from doing the course, is the importance of a glide path. [01:28:50]

Speaker3: Remind us, remind us about that. [01:28:55] That does ring a bell.

Speaker1: So, yeah. Um, I couldn’t give you an exact definition if [01:29:00] I’m if I’m honest, which is terrible.

Speaker4: It’s kind of from, from.

Speaker3: From the access to the tip.

Speaker4: Being smoothly. [01:29:05] Just making.

Speaker1: You. Yeah. Giving you a clean access all the way to the apex. [01:29:10] Because a lot before this, I was working on enlarging with the rotary files, but actually [01:29:15] or even finding the access with the rotary files. Um, but it’s actually, as you say, it’s [01:29:20] making a path for the rotary files to go on and follow more smoothly. And it’s just [01:29:25] made everything more straightforward.

Speaker3: And how like, like how [01:29:30] long is this course? Is it ten weeks.

Speaker4: So it’s 1010.

Speaker1: Days.

Speaker4: Ten days over.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:29:35] So two days a month. So it’s five months essentially. So you can go in person [01:29:40] for two days. And I’m doing it two days online and watching the videos in the evening. [01:29:45] And then they send you all the practical stuff to do at home if you’re doing it on the online course. So it’s really great [01:29:50] for, for someone like me who, like I said, I’m in the phase of my life where just going to things hands [01:29:55] on courses is just not practical for my life at the moment. Like I can’t have my husband doing [01:30:00] all the bedtime’s that often. It’s just not fair. But I still want to kind of pursue knowledge. [01:30:05] Online has been absolutely amazing with the how much it’s expanded since Covid, [01:30:10] but just so fantastic. And I’ve really tried to make the most [01:30:15] of it. And just I do everything online now as much as I can. Obviously hands on is important because dentistry is [01:30:20] a practical and clinical degree, but I’m definitely going to get as much as I can while I can at this [01:30:25] point until I can go back to being more hands on. And there’s a lot you can do here. [01:30:30] Really.

Speaker3: What’s the future hold?

Speaker1: Ooh, that’s a good question. [01:30:35] Um, the future for me holds diversify. For [01:30:40] a long time, I thought I wanted to leave dentistry just because I was disillusioned and blah, blah, blah. But I was talking to my husband [01:30:45] the other day, and I think actually, even if I was really, really wealthy, I don’t think I would stop [01:30:50] being a dentist because I’ve worked so hard to get here. Like it’s been blood, sweat and tears. And I [01:30:55] just when you’ve I don’t know if it’s a sunk cost fallacy where, you know, you once you’ve put so much energy [01:31:00] into something, you don’t want to give it up. But I have put a lot into dentistry. And for that reason, I think it’s [01:31:05] always going to be with me in some sort of capacity. It may not necessarily be working in practice if [01:31:10] I, you know, somehow just make something and become a billionaire. You know, I [01:31:15] may be giving practical skills or, you know, be working entirely as [01:31:20] a charitable dentist and not charging for what I do entirely. But it’s a very unique skill, and there’s [01:31:25] not a lot of people in the world who can practically do what we do, you know? So as much as I can earn money and give it, [01:31:30] there’s also a lot of benefit to actually just practically doing the dentistry for people who don’t have access to it. [01:31:35]

Speaker3: So you should definitely follow up the charity whichever direction you go in.

Speaker4: Yeah, I [01:31:40] definitely will. Yeah.

Speaker3: Whichever direction you go in and whether that’s, you know, it’s completely [01:31:45] under your auspice, whether it’s within another, you know, at the end of the day, there’s a vanity [01:31:50] kind of metric in it as well, right. That says.

Speaker4: This.

Speaker3: Is my charity, but [01:31:55] you know which direction you go. You definitely should do something with it. And, [01:32:00] you know, listen, I’m fully up for helping out with that as well. If oh, that’d be great.

Speaker1: The more support, the better.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:32:05]

Speaker3: Any any way I can. So Don so going forward.

Speaker1: Yeah. [01:32:10] So charity definitely um, hopefully becoming the restorative [01:32:15] dentist that I want. So focusing on lens orthodontics and restorative [01:32:20] dentistry. So that would be my future I don’t I like I said, I don’t see myself owning a practice, [01:32:25] but I would like to work in a space where I’m completely. Free to really focus [01:32:30] on those areas. And in terms of, yeah, I’m going to stay [01:32:35] in Bristol. I’ve done a tour of the country, so I’ve, I feel at home here. So this.

Speaker4: Lovely.

Speaker3: Lovely, [01:32:40] lovely town isn’t it. It’s one of my favourites.

Speaker4: It’s so family.

Speaker1: Orientated. It’s a really [01:32:45] comfortable. So it’s really nice place to raise my children. And yeah, I’m also interested [01:32:50] in business generally. Like I said my husband does property investing so I will be doing some with him as well. [01:32:55] And yeah, looking into properties and that end of things as well. So that’s that’s what I see myself [01:33:00] in the future.

Speaker3: I know it’s a it’s a little while away, but would you want your kids to be dentists?

Speaker1: To [01:33:05] be honest, I don’t mind. Um, I know a lot of people say, oh, don’t do it. You know, it’s stressful, [01:33:10] it’s all this. But I’m very much pro follow your passions, and if they have an interest in [01:33:15] it, then I would support them in it.

Speaker4: Yeah, but.

Speaker3: You know, the way the way this sort of thing turns out is. That’s a lovely [01:33:20] answer. But the way, the way it works out is your kid doesn’t have passion for any job. [01:33:25]

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah, this is true. That’s how it looks. Would I.

Speaker1: Direct them to do.

Speaker3: It? Yeah. [01:33:30] Your kid’s got a passion for PlayStation, let’s say. All right. Okay. Um.

Speaker4: I [01:33:35] think I.

Speaker1: Would, I think I would want my kids to be dentists, because in the end, as much [01:33:40] as we have many challenges and there is a lot, there are a lot [01:33:45] of jobs where you’re unfairly remunerated for the work that you do. But I think, again, [01:33:50] compared to a lot of the world, we do. Okay. You know, so we work [01:33:55] hard and we get we get a living wage, you know.

Speaker4: So living wage, that [01:34:00] is the truth.

Speaker1: If you want to look at the basics of it, we can we can live, you know.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:34:05]

Speaker1: So obviously there’s people who have higher aspirations than living. But you know, [01:34:10] compared to a lot of jobs out there that work just as hard as us, we we live we do. Okay. So [01:34:15] I would I would definitely encourage my children to be dentists. It’s not the only thing in the world you [01:34:20] can do, but I don’t think essentially it’s a bad career.

Speaker3: Yeah, you’re right about you know, I’ve [01:34:25] got I come across a lot of dentists, don’t I? And, um, sometimes you get a guy who’s, [01:34:30] you know, he’s a principal somewhere. He’s earning, I don’t know, 300 grand a year. [01:34:35] And, um, he says, you know, I’m getting a bit bored of dentistry. I [01:34:40] say, so what is it you want to do instead? And he’ll say something like, I’ve always [01:34:45] fancied myself as quite good at marketing. And they’ll he’ll ask me about marketing [01:34:50] because we do marketing as well, right? Yeah. It’s a big part of our. And I was always [01:34:55] having this funny thing I say to you that, you know, the guy who’s earning £300,000 in marketing [01:35:00] is head of marketing for Procter and Gamble. So a world [01:35:05] famous marketeer.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: He’s not a practice owner in Rochdale or wherever [01:35:10] this guy was. Yeah.

Speaker4: You know we do concept.

Speaker3: Yeah. We earn well [01:35:15] for what we do. Um, that said, it’s hard work.

Speaker4: It’s a lot of [01:35:20] hard work. Yeah, I think.

Speaker3: I think two and a half days might be the perfect number of days for dentistry, although [01:35:25] I’m generally against half days insomuch as I feel like, you know, you’ve still got to [01:35:30] go in that day. I know.

Speaker4: You’re there. I know it’s not.

Speaker1: My choice again. Not my practice.

Speaker4: Yeah, [01:35:35] I guess.

Speaker3: Half days, but I’ve I’ve done it all. I’ve done five days. I haven’t done six. I’ve [01:35:40] done five days a week for three, two, one and um, definitely three and two [01:35:45] are the right number three, three. If you want to feel like you’re doing a real, you [01:35:50] know, it’s your full on job and then, you know, your two days of property investment if you want, or kids or whatever it [01:35:55] is, that’s the other side thing or two days a week. If dentistry is kind of the side thing [01:36:00] and actually you’re pushing something else, whether it could be charity or kids or whatever, but 2 or 3 [01:36:05] really is right. One definitely isn’t right. I’ve done one day a week. It’s just no, no, no [01:36:10] balance, no, no cadence.

Speaker4: Yeah. I wanted to be hard.

Speaker1: To have continuity.

Speaker4: With one.

Speaker3: You just [01:36:15] don’t care. You know? You don’t care when things go wrong. Yeah. Because you’re just not there very much.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:36:20]

Speaker3: Let’s get on to our final questions. Fantasy [01:36:25] dinner party. Three guests, [01:36:30] dead or alive, who would you have?

Speaker1: Number one, I would [01:36:35] most definitely have Michelle Obama.

Speaker3: Are you like a bit of Michelle Obama? [01:36:40]

Speaker4: I love a bit Michelle Obama.

Speaker1: Um, I love a bit of her. I loved her books. [01:36:45] I read both her books and, um, becoming and The Light We Carry and becoming particularly was really [01:36:50] poignant for me. And there’s one quote in there that she said something along the lines of, we have to [01:36:55] go out there and identify ourselves. Oh, no. Um, yeah. Give ourselves [01:37:00] an identity before the world gives us an identity. And that really spoke to me [01:37:05] in terms of there’s so many pressures in the world and so many things in the life that give you labels. And, [01:37:10] you know, her whole book, becoming was about how she went out and forged the path that was specific to her. [01:37:15] And she obviously had a very unique role being the first African American first lady. And it was really [01:37:20] tough position to be in where you’ve got all these expectations and this long history that you [01:37:25] need to follow up with. And I think she did it brilliantly and forged a path that was completely unique to [01:37:30] her, and she didn’t look to anybody else on what she should be doing or should be thinking. But she forged her own path and she forged [01:37:35] her own identity. And that’s really poignant to me. So I’m trying to forge my own identity.

Speaker4: Nice. [01:37:40] Yeah.

Speaker1: Guest Nelson Mandela.

Speaker4: Nice. [01:37:45]

Speaker1: My dad actually met Nelson Mandela as a running joke in my family, because he’s got this big picture of him sitting [01:37:50] next to Nelson Mandela, and he sends it to each of us.

Speaker4: To frame.

Speaker1: Up [01:37:55] in our house. And one of the family friend got married at our house, and he had the picture [01:38:00] at the altar next to the wedding.

Speaker4: That’s my dad.

Speaker1: And [01:38:05] so, yeah, Nelson Mandela, just because I think what he managed [01:38:10] to achieve with the Truth and Reconciliation Committee is just amazing. And [01:38:15] I just, I can’t imagine how someone having that capacity to forgive after [01:38:20] all the suffering that he went through. And I think just the opportunity to talk [01:38:25] to him and just to hear his heart, his soul, his thinking, his mind, just what [01:38:30] brought him to that point, I just think would be fascinating because that’s just and I just I don’t know if I [01:38:35] would be able to forgive after what he went through, basically.

Speaker3: Yeah. He comes up a lot in [01:38:40] these in this question. Yeah, understandably. Understandably. And [01:38:45] he’s the third.

Speaker1: Number three would actually be Angelina Jolie.

Speaker4: You what? [01:38:50]

Speaker3: Okay.

Speaker4: Come on I know, I know.

Speaker1: Everyone I tell you, my husband and he was like, what? Basically [01:38:55] he.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: I’ve always I’ve always adored Angelina Jolie [01:39:00] just because she is actually one of the UN’s biggest philanthropists.

Speaker3: Oh I see, yeah.

Speaker4: Okay. [01:39:05]

Speaker1: She’s a massive giver. She’s a massive, massive philanthropist. And [01:39:10] I have this weird obsession with adoption. And I’ve always thought adoption is just the most beautiful thing in the world. [01:39:15] And obviously she’s adopted loads of kids from around the world. And I just think actually, if I was a wealthy [01:39:20] person and that’s how I would want to do life like her in terms of her philanthropy, [01:39:25] you know, she gives away a huge portion of her income. She’s been a UN ambassador for a [01:39:30] long time. And yeah, she really uses her fame to highlight global causes [01:39:35] and and highlight the plight of refugees. And yeah, she’s. Yeah, she she just. And [01:39:40] what I love about adoption is it’s one it’s like the long it’s the, um, permanency [01:39:45] of it. You know, it’s one thing to give to a cause and keep it distant, but it’s another thing to take an orphan [01:39:50] and bring them into your home and make them your child.

Speaker4: Mm.

Speaker1: You know, and I think that’s that [01:39:55] is a different level of intimacy and compassion and love that I [01:40:00] just really admire. Basically. Yeah.

Speaker3: Me too. Me too. Beautiful.

Speaker4: It’s [01:40:05] my turn.

Speaker3: It’s beautiful. The final. [01:40:10] Final question. Difficult for someone so young. But it’s a deathbed question. [01:40:15]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, children. Grandchildren. Who are you? [01:40:20] Anyone who means something to you. What are three pieces of advice [01:40:25] that you would leave for them and for the world?

Speaker1: So the first one [01:40:30] would actually be a quote. The quote from Michelle Obama, which is kind of like forge your own identity [01:40:35] before the world forces one on you. And I think that’s, again, with the [01:40:40] so much pressure in the world, it’s so easy to lose our way. And this is something that I’m constantly having to do to remind [01:40:45] myself of who I am and not get influenced by what everyone else is doing, really. [01:40:50] And I think it’s only by doing that that we really find our true fulfilment [01:40:55] and contentment. Because as long as we’re comparing ourselves to other people and trying to, you know, [01:41:00] keep up with the Joneses, then we’re just running on a hamster wheel, going endlessly. [01:41:05] So yeah, the first would definitely be to forge your identity and tell the world who you are before the world tries [01:41:10] to put you a label on you, put you in a box, and there’s lots of kind of cultural and racial and things [01:41:15] like that that come into that as well, and that I’m definitely trying to instil with my children, because obviously being a minority, you get [01:41:20] put in boxes and things like that. So for me, it’s even more poignant that I teach my children [01:41:25] to be like, you need to know who you are and you need to tell the world who you are before the world tries to tell you. [01:41:30]

Speaker3: Do you think that whole Black Lives Matter thing.

Speaker4: Was.

Speaker3: Big when it was? [01:41:35] What was your. What’s your. I asked you this question, right? The your [01:41:40] experience of being a black woman in dentistry.

Speaker1: I think there’s different [01:41:45] challenges, and I don’t think I would say that. I think that everyone has their challenges and I don’t [01:41:50] think you can compare them. I don’t, for example, like dentistry was [01:41:55] previously predominantly male, but now it’s predominantly female. Yeah. You know, so, um, [01:42:00] there’s a swings around about women still get paid less. So in [01:42:05] that sense you can say across. Is that.

Speaker4: True? Is that true that.

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:42:10] that is true. That’s why you still have women. International Women’s Day because we still earn a little bit less than men.

Speaker3: If [01:42:15] that was the case, why doesn’t everyone just hire women?

Speaker1: Who knows? Um, I don’t know, [01:42:20] I don’t know, I don’t know the details of it, but statistically across, um, across [01:42:25] jobs and what they are reporting for income for similar jobs, similar qualifications, [01:42:30] women will still be paid slightly less.

Speaker3: Do you know what I mean? Though? I’ve got 44 employees. [01:42:35] Why aren’t they all women? If that’s the case, if I can learn my costs.

Speaker4: I will do it. I know that [01:42:40] it would be obvious. And you get caught out.

Speaker1: There. Doing it slyly, [01:42:45] that’s why.

Speaker4: Okay. Um.

Speaker1: So. Yeah, [01:42:50] I don’t think it’s. Yeah. I think we have different challenges, different expectations. So I think [01:42:55] it’s hard to be a person basically. So, um, I wouldn’t pit one against [01:43:00] the other, but maybe that’s just, you know, you you answer from your experiences in life. Yeah. And. Yeah. [01:43:05] And these are my experiences in life and I, I see the challenges that men have and I and I’m, I’m [01:43:10] okay with my challenges. Basically there’s some that men have that I don’t think I’d want.

Speaker3: So forge [01:43:15] a path for yourself before the world does. What’s the second piece of advice?

Speaker1: Second piece of advice is [01:43:20] see as much as the world as you can. So a lot of the prejudice in the world [01:43:25] come from people living small minded lives and only seeing things from their perspective [01:43:30] and only having experiences of people similar to them. And I think the world [01:43:35] would be a much better place if more people spent time interacting with people that were different to them, [01:43:40] and the further afield, the better, in my opinion. The more interactions you have [01:43:45] with cultures, with peoples, with things like that, it’s so enriching and [01:43:50] will completely change your perspective on your life and, you know, have huge [01:43:55] impact on your own mental health and wellbeing and view [01:44:00] on life and just happiness generally. But as well as being able to [01:44:05] see the value of humans who are different to you and see the [01:44:10] value of their homes and their cultures and and see things from a completely different perspective, the world would be [01:44:15] just a better place. So I would definitely say travel as much as possible and interact with as [01:44:20] many different people as possible.

Speaker3: And I’d add to that, I’d say travel as much as possible, as young as possible. [01:44:25]

Speaker1: Oh, definitely, because travelling with children is just not the same.

Speaker4: There’s that, [01:44:30] there’s that.

Speaker3: But you know, it’s you get to a certain age where you just want, uh, you just want to go to a good [01:44:35] hotel and. Yeah, whereas when you’re young, you haven’t made your mind up about stuff. No. You [01:44:40] know.

Speaker1: Yeah. You would not catch me in a hostel now. I just couldn’t do it.

Speaker4: Right. Exactly.

Speaker3: What’s [01:44:45] the third piece?

Speaker1: Um, the third thing is don’t let fears [01:44:50] hold you back, because there’s, again, with this whole thing of you have greatness in you. [01:44:55] But a lot of us, we are the biggest roadblock in our own lives. And [01:45:00] I talk more from my own experience. So in the past I had this I had loads of fears and [01:45:05] I just there’s lots of things even like, particularly with my charity, that when I started it, I had loads of opportunities [01:45:10] and I said no to a lot of them, just out of fear, which I’m just so sad about [01:45:15] now. Like as soon as I started it, I got, I had BBC Africa requested to interview me. [01:45:20] I was invited to be a panel on Africa Global Health Summit and I just thought, who [01:45:25] am I? Why are they inviting me all to all these places? Or why would anyone want me there? And I just said no to all these things [01:45:30] that would have.

Speaker4: Been.

Speaker1: I know I now I look back on it, I was like, how much more [01:45:35] could I have done with the platform that I could have had, you know? And it was just pure [01:45:40] fear and I felt like I had nothing to say. And actually it wasn’t [01:45:45] about me. And that’s the thing, you know, fear tells you a lie. And I just lied [01:45:50] to myself, essentially. So that’s the biggest thing. Now I say yes to everything.

Speaker3: I [01:45:55] think it goes full circle as well, you know? Then then the skill becomes learning [01:46:00] to say no to stuff after that.

Speaker4: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. [01:46:05]

Speaker1: Fear hold you back.

Speaker3: It’s been so amazing to have you on. It’s so, so [01:46:10] positive. It’s it’s been.

Speaker4: You.

Speaker3: It’s been a wonderful, um, conversation. We’ve gone for [01:46:15] an hour and 50 minutes. Oh, wow. Can you believe that? It’s gone crazy. Um, [01:46:20] thanks so much for for doing this. And, uh, hopefully I’ll catch up with you in [01:46:25] a couple of years time when the charities are.

Speaker4: Yeah. Massive. Send you the link.

Speaker1: In the meantime. [01:46:30]

Speaker3: Actually, we’re gonna have to wait for the nine month old to put her socks on.

Speaker4: I know this. [01:46:35]

Speaker3: Charity can get this.

Speaker4: Potential anywhere. Yeah.

Speaker3: No. [01:46:40] Thanks a lot for doing this. It’s been really lovely time.

Speaker1: It’s been great talking to [01:46:45] you.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, the [01:46:50] podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. [01:46:55] Your hosts. Payman Langroudi [01:47:00] and Prav Solanki.

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got [01:47:05] this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay [01:47:10] for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because [01:47:15] I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. [01:47:20] And if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out [01:47:25] of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Speaker1: So I did originally work on other channels I originally had. I originally was a social media manager for all [00:00:05] channels, and I just saw the growth on TikTok, the potential, the reach, um, [00:00:10] and just how you’re able to get into such into, you know, the hearts of billions [00:00:15] of people. It’s the first one of the fastest growing apps in the world, um, you know, almost 2 billion active [00:00:20] users. So it’s very, very, um, you know, growing at a rapid, rapid pace. So I just [00:00:25] think the the growth that I’ve seen and the potential on on app, on and [00:00:30] off app, um, is amazing.

Speaker2: This is [00:00:35] mind movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental [00:00:40] health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts [00:00:45] Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Speaker3: Hi [00:00:50] everyone. Welcome back to Mind Movers. Payman says I’m not allowed to call it season two, but [00:00:55] because it is a new year, I’m going to call it season two. And we are your co-hosts Payman, Langroudi [00:01:00] and Doctor Rona. Today I have an incredible woman, Eloise Bratt. [00:01:05] She looks like a Bratz doll. Have you ever seen the Bratz dolls? No. Have you never seen them? I look.

Speaker1: Like [00:01:10] a x.

Speaker4: Y, z a Gen x, Gen y, Gen z. No, Gen-X just doesn’t [00:01:15] know about Bratz dolls. Man. What is it?

Speaker3: A Bratz dolls are like those dolls. They look like Barbies, but not Barbies. They’re a little bit [00:01:20] more real edgy edgy than Barbie. Anyway, she does look like a Bratz doll.

Speaker1: It [00:01:25] was like Bratz or Barbie. You always one or the other. I was always a Bratz Bratz doll girl, to be fair.

Speaker3: So [00:01:30] we really want to continue bringing you guys things that are [00:01:35] of value. And I think today’s episode is going to be very interesting because Eloise started [00:01:40] a social media agency. We’re going to go into her whole childhood how she started [00:01:45] it, but she’s in fact my Tik Tok manager for both my personal brand and my Chelsea [00:01:50] Dental brand. And one of the big questions that I get asked is, Rona, how do you do it all? My [00:01:55] answer is I delegate and one of the delegation is outsourcing things, and so [00:02:00] I can spend my time on the things that I love. I love social media, we all know that. But you know, me and Ellie bounce off each [00:02:05] other. She comes, she takes the videos and then she posts them. Ellie has a very interesting [00:02:10] history and heritage within her own family line, and also she got to where [00:02:15] she did through determination, dedication and just really [00:02:20] believing in herself. So today’s episode is going to be about mental health, but also about how to build [00:02:25] a tick tock brand and how to do it. So welcome, Ellie.

Speaker1: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m very [00:02:30] happy to be here.

Speaker3: So, Ellie, I want you to start from the beginning. I’m getting some of my [00:02:35] sort of questions up for the prompts that I, that I wrote down because there was so much information. [00:02:40] But I want you to start from the beginning, and I want you to share a bit about your childhood, the environment that you grew up in, [00:02:45] and how you think your early years shaped who you are.

Speaker1: I, [00:02:50] I think I had quite a normal childhood, to be fair, like I there was nothing in my childhood [00:02:55] that was, you know, not normal to me that nothing. You know, my parents [00:03:00] were together. I was brought up in a loving home. And my mum, my dad, my sister, myself. [00:03:05] Um, so I always had that, you know, that close knit family growing up. My my, [00:03:10] um, parents are like one of four each. So I’ve always grown up with, like, big family [00:03:15] and everyone’s very close. And I’ve always had that nice family, uh, family [00:03:20] behind like family net behind me. Um, so, yeah, growing up, you know, it was just an Essex. [00:03:25] I went to a normal school. Nothing. You know, crazy happened. It was honestly [00:03:30] just a very normal childhood.

Speaker3: So you talk about your childhood being normal, but obviously [00:03:35] on this podcast, we go deeper and really try to spend some time and understanding the psychology of individuals [00:03:40] and how it shaped who they are. I know that your grandfather was a Holocaust victim, [00:03:45] which you’ve told me about before, and we’ve mentioned things like generational trauma. So do you want to tell [00:03:50] us a little bit about what your grandfather went through and how you felt it affected your family throughout? [00:03:55]

Speaker1: Yeah. So growing up, um, obviously, I said that we had a very, very normal childhood, [00:04:00] which we did. Um, because he never really spoke about anything for quite a [00:04:05] long time. And it wasn’t until, um, he got to his 70s, I think, that my, my [00:04:10] Nana sort of pushed him and was like, okay, you need to like, stop talking about it. Um, so growing up for [00:04:15] us, we didn’t really know too much about it. But for my parents, there was always this elephant. Sorry. [00:04:20] Like my mum and her siblings, there was always this elephant in the room. They knew something happened. They [00:04:25] knew sort of what happened, but he never spoke about it. Um, so yeah, it wasn’t until my [00:04:30] Nana sort of pushed him to speak about it that he really started, um, you know, educating about what happened to him. [00:04:35] So, um, you know, my mental health does, like, typically run in my family, my, my mum [00:04:40] and her siblings, um, they’re all sort of, like, suffered bits with mental health, um, [00:04:45] through generational trauma because of what happened to him, because he always had this thing that affected [00:04:50] him when he was younger that he never spoke about. And I think that was always there for them growing up that, um, you [00:04:55] know, he just unwillingly passed it down to them, the trauma.

Speaker1: Um, so, yeah, mental [00:05:00] health definitely runs in my family and they’ve all had things that affected them. Um, and [00:05:05] they’re very, because of that, very, very open with mental health. Um, they, [00:05:10] they all want to sort of like get rid of the stigma about it. You know, if you’re on antidepressants, if you’re seeing a [00:05:15] therapist. So what, like that shouldn’t be something that you have to hide, that you feel that you need to hide. So [00:05:20] I’ve always been brought up around that. You know, if there’s something wrong, talk about it and, you know, share your feelings [00:05:25] and, um, get help if you need it. So that’s always been there. And I’m very lucky that I’ve had [00:05:30] that. I’ve never personally felt, um, you know, that I’ve had to, to [00:05:35] get to that length to get to, you know, speaking to someone or um, or anything [00:05:40] like that. But I know that if I needed to and there was one time where I almost needed to that [00:05:45] I could just chat to my family and they’d be there. And I love that I had. Growing up because [00:05:50] I know a lot of people don’t. Um, so I’m, I guess I’m very blessed that I’ve had that with my family.

Speaker3: Yeah. [00:05:55] Thank you for sharing that. And actually, Payman, do you know what generational trauma is?

Speaker4: I can guess, but [00:06:00] go ahead.

Speaker3: But also like where you’re from, for example, Iran and where I’m from in the Middle East, there were definitely [00:06:05] elements of that generational trauma. So we talked about this with Ellie, who is my Ellie. Um, [00:06:10] Ella who is my therapist, and she talks a lot about generational trauma. So it’s [00:06:15] essentially about the history and heritage of your own ancestors that [00:06:20] has been passed on. And what they’ve recently found is, is that there’s an epigenetic element to it. [00:06:25] So although people think like, is it a psychological thing that’s passed on, how can you quantify it? More [00:06:30] and more, they’re finding in DNA that you can pass on a trauma gene. So it’s really interesting. [00:06:35] And that’s because if you just don’t get over something or something like that. Um, so what kind of things [00:06:40] did your grandfather experience.

Speaker1: In back in the Holocaust? Oh, he was. [00:06:45] Yeah, he he, um, was born in Hungary. Um, he was around 13, I think, [00:06:50] uh, when the Holocaust happened. And, yeah, he went to Auschwitz. He was in the concentration [00:06:55] camp. Um, his entire family died. He was in a quite a religious family. He was like one [00:07:00] of eight. Um, they all they all died. They all got sent to the gas chambers or murdered. Apart from [00:07:05] him and his brother, they were the only two that survived. Wow. Um, and then, yeah, they came to England and [00:07:10] started up a family here. Um, and his his brother sadly died maybe ten or so years [00:07:15] ago now. So, yeah, he’s the only only one left. And yeah, there’s not many survivors nowadays. So, [00:07:20] um, my sister’s actually doing a really amazing thing called generation. Generation to generation, [00:07:25] where she generation to generation, where she essentially goes around to um, schools, [00:07:30] universities, workplaces and speaks about, um, his story. Um, [00:07:35] just because obviously there’s not going to be many chances for him to do it, you know. Yeah. Anymore. So it’s [00:07:40] incredible. Yeah. So yeah, there’s. Yeah. He’s amazing. He’s my biggest inspiration. [00:07:45] Um, yeah. And he came to England. Didn’t know the language. No family. Um, was in like a [00:07:50] boys school, like, grew up in, like, essentially care and started his own business [00:07:55] and got very, very successful. And he is where he is today, you know, beautiful family, [00:08:00] grandkids, great grandkids.

Speaker4: Hearing his story to that change. [00:08:05] Number one, change him once. He’d sort of laid it out. And did it change who [00:08:10] you thought you were as well?

Speaker1: Yeah I think definitely at first I think, [00:08:15] you know, knowing that he was a Holocaust survivor and, you know, you at school, you know, you [00:08:20] learn about things like the Holocaust or we did. We definitely did. And then sort of understanding, [00:08:25] oh, my grandfather’s a Holocaust survivor. And no one else saying, oh, me too was a bit like, [00:08:30] oh my gosh, that’s actually a big thing. I didn’t realise, you know, I was not one of many [00:08:35] that that had a Holocaust survivor as a grandparent. Um, so for me, definitely, [00:08:40] it was like, whoa, okay, this is quite a big thing. And I think that’s why my sister decided to do the [00:08:45] generation to generation because she was like, okay, I there’s not many of us grandchildren that have [00:08:50] got grand grandparents as survivors. Um, but so I think yeah, that’s why [00:08:55] it definitely makes me like, extremely, extremely proud. I think it’s, um, amazing. Like what he’s [00:09:00] achieved despite what he’s been through. Yeah. Um, and then I think for him, I [00:09:05] think he everything that he does and speaks about, he’s a BEM now. So he, [00:09:10] he got, um, he got the medal from the Queen and he’s done all of that. And he everything [00:09:15] for him is just about education. He doesn’t he would never um, he’s got a book out now, [00:09:20] but, like, he doesn’t ever want anything to be about him. It’s all about his story and what he went through. [00:09:25] Um, and just making sure that people don’t forget the the traumas and what happened, [00:09:30] um, to the people of the Holocaust. So, yeah, for him, I think it’s it’s now just about [00:09:35] the message. And I think he’s very, very glad that he was able to finally speak up about it. Yeah. [00:09:40]

Speaker3: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. Now I want to move on [00:09:45] to your school days. So how would you describe yourself as a student? Was there any [00:09:50] subjects or activities that you were particularly drawn to, like? Talk to us a little bit, because I know you and I have spoken [00:09:55] personally about it, but I want to share it with everyone else.

Speaker1: Yeah. Um, I think at school I [00:10:00] was never really like an academic person. I was quite chatty as well, a bit [00:10:05] naughty. I was on report card for a while, if, you know, report card back in the day. Um, in [00:10:10] the early years of school, um, and I think that was just because I never saw myself [00:10:15] as, um, you know, academic. I couldn’t concentrate properly in classes. I never felt [00:10:20] that I found an academic class that I truly liked, like maths, science. [00:10:25] I was really not into any of it. Um, English. I did particularly, like, I [00:10:30] actually really liked English. Um, English language. Um, I felt I definitely excel was a little bit more [00:10:35] there and then drama as well, and when that was a subject. So I loved all of that kind of, [00:10:40] um, those kind of topics. Yeah. Um, and then drama got discontinued at my school. [00:10:45] I didn’t even know that that was a thing, so I couldn’t I couldn’t do that anymore. Um. And then [00:10:50] in in GCSEs, English Literature, English language that I actually liked [00:10:55] wasn’t even a subject you could choose. So I ended up doing, um, English literature instead, [00:11:00] which I still sort of liked, but it wasn’t.

Speaker1: Wouldn’t have been my first choice. Um, and, you [00:11:05] know, I was doing all these other subjects and, you know, you’re told, you know, you need to do maths, you need to do triple science or [00:11:10] double science or all these kind of subjects. And I just never really enjoyed any of them. I absolutely [00:11:15] hated, you know, maths. I was never a good maths person. Um, but yeah, English [00:11:20] was okay for me, I liked it. Um, and then I think for, [00:11:25] um, I got okay GCSEs, I got like an A, four B’s, three C’s, [00:11:30] that kind of thing. Maybe a D in there somewhere. I was definitely science or maths. Um, and then it came round to [00:11:35] As levels. Um, and I ended up doing English, sociology, [00:11:40] uh, psychology and politics. Really? Yes. Politics, which I never, [00:11:45] ever would have had an interest in. Politics is something I am probably the least interested [00:11:50] in, but I don’t know if you had at school, you had to choose certain subjects that were in a column, and [00:11:55] you ended up doing subjects just because it was in that column and you had it fitted into the schedule.

Speaker3: But [00:12:00] dentistry, I think, is just way more, um, it there’s way more thought going [00:12:05] into it. Right? Because you have to do chemistry and biology and then you pick the other two and then by [00:12:10] nature you don’t.

Speaker4: Have to do biology.

Speaker3: Yeah you do.

Speaker4: I didn’t do biology.

Speaker3: Well, we had to when I was applying [00:12:15] because.

Speaker4: Chemistry and two sciences. But but but it’s an interesting point and two sciences. [00:12:20]

Speaker3: So it would have to be physics and biology. No. What’s the other sciences. Maths isn’t the science I.

Speaker4: Did [00:12:25] maths, physics, chemistry. Sorry.

Speaker3: Well okay. Einstein I’m sorry. Sorry. So [00:12:30] no.

Speaker4: I wish I did biology because it really put me in a bad situation and Dental school not having done, not having looked [00:12:35] down a microscope. Oh yeah. All that.

Speaker3: Stuff. Yeah. Fine.

Speaker4: But I’m interested in. Okay. So then [00:12:40] did you, did you enjoy politics?

Speaker1: I hated it, I absolutely hated it. I was like, why [00:12:45] am I why am I here? Why am I doing a subject that I absolutely hate just because it fit into a box on a schedule? [00:12:50] Um, so it literally got to a stage where I would be going home crying to my mum, like, what have I done? [00:12:55] And she she’s the one that told me, just, just forget it and focus on the ones that you like. [00:13:00] Um, anyway. And then I, um. Yeah. So I basically failed that. And I [00:13:05] actually did quite badly in English as well, in all of my subjects. I did quite badly in As [00:13:10] levels. Um, I got du as my, [00:13:15] As levels.

Speaker4: You haven’t got kids, have you?

Speaker1: No.

Speaker3: So she’s Gen Z, she’s like, she’s a kid. [00:13:20] You know.

Speaker4: You just have to say that before you say so. Do you think if you had kids or [00:13:25] when you have kids, do you think you’ll you’ll be more of an enforcer as far as studies [00:13:30] than your parents were? No. Were your parents enforcing studies or not?

Speaker1: Um, they were they [00:13:35] always were like, I, they were quite strict in that sense. I wasn’t allowed to, you know, um, you know, go and play with [00:13:40] my friends or do anything until I had done my homework or until I’d done, you know, certain amount of reading [00:13:45] or things like that. So they they definitely made sure I did my work. But I know there’s probably parents out there [00:13:50] that push their kids a lot more. However, why? You know, I clearly wasn’t academic, [00:13:55] so if they did push me more, it would have just made me, you know, rebel. Yeah. More frustrated, [00:14:00] I think.

Speaker3: I mean, I’d be interested to hear Paimon’s view on this, but we talk a lot about, um, the [00:14:05] immigrant motivation. Have you heard about this? Um, so, for example, my parents [00:14:10] pushed me so hard, me and my sister and I remember even being at school and not being able to [00:14:15] have a sick day, ever. I had chickenpox, and my dad goes, you’re going to school. It’s a waste [00:14:20] of £400 today if you didn’t. And we got sent to school with chickenpox and then sent home for being superspreaders, [00:14:25] you know what I mean? And the point is, is because they instilled so much hard work [00:14:30] in us. But there’s also a problem with that, because you feel that the only way that you’re really loved [00:14:35] by your parents is when you’re achieving, when you’re not achieving. Yeah. It’s a conditional love that you get an [00:14:40] A, or you pass this test or you get this accolade. And I think that’s quite dangerous [00:14:45] because as a result, although it’s made me very driven in my adult life, I feel like when I’m not achieving or when [00:14:50] I’m not being validated, I’m not good enough, and I do. I don’t want to blame my parents, because I do think our parents did [00:14:55] the best that they knew. But obviously coming from countries that were war torn and they they [00:15:00] came here for opportunity essentially, and work. They just instilled that hard work. What would you do with [00:15:05] your kid? Well, before you go on to that, my question is, did you have that or were your parents, what were [00:15:10] you first, second generation or what was it?

Speaker4: Yeah, I was six when I came. Yeah. In our house, studies were the only [00:15:15] thing that happened. No, that was, that was counted like, you know, so my [00:15:20] brother was always top of his class. Um, but he was really bad at. He was he was unkind. He was [00:15:25] angry. He was really. And none of that stuff counted. It was only where you were, your studies. And [00:15:30] I felt a degree of resentment because of that.

Speaker3: How did he develop then as an adult? How did that carry him through? [00:15:35]

Speaker4: Well, he still still the same. No, no, no, I wouldn’t go that far. But but but but you [00:15:40] know, in our house points were only given to academic stuff. So this is what I’m saying. I [00:15:45] even though my kids are pretty academic because my I was.

Speaker3: Gonna say, how do you treat them? With their [00:15:50] achievements. Do you think subconsciously.

Speaker4: My wife’s taken the mantle of the studies because they go to French school and [00:15:55] she speaks French? Yeah, yeah. Um, so I can just be the fun guy.

Speaker3: But [00:16:00] do you feel that when they fails at something, whether it’s sports or, you know, whatever it [00:16:05] is, how do you handle that as a father?

Speaker4: I try to I try and be different to to my upbringing. [00:16:10] But, you know, I’ve had people sit here and say, I wish my parents pushed me harder. Yes. [00:16:15] And I’ve had the opposite and many of those. Yeah. And I’ve had the opposite of, you [00:16:20] know, especially with some Asian parents. Right.

Speaker3: And in dentistry, I think it’s rife because a lot of them go into [00:16:25] dentistry or medicine for their parents. Yeah. They don’t go into it because they wanted to. And it’s very [00:16:30] interesting when you hear these people from these very strict Asian backgrounds saying, I hate dentistry, and [00:16:35] they actually end up going off and doing other things, or they totally.

Speaker4: My own brother, my own brother wanted to do something. [00:16:40] He was very good at maths. Yeah. Um, but, uh, he’s now a doctor. Yeah. [00:16:45] He’s still blames my parents at age 54.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Wow. [00:16:50] So it’s interesting how our childhood conditioned us. But back to payments. Yeah. [00:16:55] You know, would you do the same to your children? And do you think that it was helpful the way that your parents [00:17:00] treated you?

Speaker1: Definitely I think I they they were very [00:17:05] strict to an extent. So I think they knew that I wasn’t academic in that sense. [00:17:10] They knew I wasn’t going to do well in politics. They knew I wasn’t going to do well in maths. They knew I wasn’t going to do science. [00:17:15] So there, from their point of view, it was more like focus on the ones that you do like and you do think are going [00:17:20] to help you. Um, so then for, for my A levels from that I, [00:17:25] I dropped psychology, I dropped so I dropped politics obviously I got, I got, I [00:17:30] got using them um, and I essentially decided to take up [00:17:35] um media studies. So media studies was a thing at my school, but it was sort of looked down [00:17:40] upon as that my dad.

Speaker3: Would say it was a woowoo degree. There we.

Speaker1: Go. The BTec, the BTec in.

Speaker4: Media [00:17:45] Studies is the classic one that in, in, in, in that day, people used to think was [00:17:50] for people who didn’t who weren’t very bright. But it’s turned out to be. Yeah. Even the most important subjects [00:17:55] out there.

Speaker1: Yeah, exactly. There we go in today’s age. But yeah, like even much of the.

Speaker4: Media studies you did, did [00:18:00] it have anything to do with social media or was it.

Speaker1: Before? No, it was before. So it was more of actual media. But this is sort [00:18:05] of, I think where my, where my like original love for, for the media side of things [00:18:10] came out and where, where it made me realise you don’t need to have to be doing a maths class or a politics class [00:18:15] to be, to get sent to university, because I did want to go to university. You want to go? [00:18:20] I think I wanted to go more for the experience. Yeah, more for the experience. I’m not gonna lie. I’ve [00:18:25] living on my own, being with friends, that kind of thing. I went to Nottingham Trent. It wasn’t, you know, one of the redbrick universities. [00:18:30] But I did want to go. I wanted a degree and I. And at that time it [00:18:35] was still, um, you know, you had to normally go to university to get a good job at [00:18:40] the end. You know, most jobs were still then were you have to have a degree. It doesn’t matter what. [00:18:45]

Speaker4: You grown up in London.

Speaker1: Essex, Essex, Essex. Yeah. Where abouts? Um, Gants Hill originally. [00:18:50] Yeah. And then I moved to Loughton. Um, and that’s where my family are now. But yeah. So [00:18:55] I, it made me realise like, okay, you didn’t need to have, you know, the politics or the psychology [00:19:00] or the maths to, to to be able to do well and um, yeah. And even [00:19:05] with like the other subjects, you know, I, um, overheard teachers telling me, um, sorry, [00:19:10] I overheard teachers, my English teacher telling another teacher, you know, Eloise isn’t going to pass. Um, [00:19:15] she’s going to fail. She she did. She got a C last year. There’s no way she’s going to, uh. So she got a [00:19:20] D in her A-levels. There’s no way she’s going to do well in her A-levels. And that just kind of made [00:19:25] me determined to prove them wrong.

Speaker3: That was the same with me. Yeah. Um, we had a conversation [00:19:30] earlier, and Payman is probably going to disagree because he’s Payman. And, um, we [00:19:35] said actually with one of my other guests that there is also this poor conditioning [00:19:40] between boys and girls when you grow up, and that if you’re a very loud girl, you’re [00:19:45] really told off and you’re deemed to be bossy. And that was me as a child, like I was that loud [00:19:50] girl. Surprise, surprise. I’d get up in the classroom. I’d be like, like causing a little bit of [00:19:55] a a scene. But I was just like, I had like a degree of leadership. Does that make sense? [00:20:00] And that was definitely not something that was encouraged at [00:20:05] school. In a way. It was like, you have to be the good little quiet girl. And I feel that when you think of like [00:20:10] boys that were like perhaps a bit more boisterous, like maybe they didn’t get as [00:20:15] disciplined or told off as I did in that kind of school environment [00:20:20] if they were bossy. Um, I don’t know. But even just like thinking more of, like, the boisterous behaviour, [00:20:25] does that make sense? It was more like boys will be boys, that kind of thing, you know, which is quite [00:20:30] interesting.

Speaker4: Do you think it’s right that the label is controversial? The label is different [00:20:35] based on who it is that’s doing the thing, you know, like like. [00:20:40]

Speaker3: Yeah, like, go on, go on. Yeah.

Speaker4: Well, okay. Like, if a girl says [00:20:45] I was a tomboy. Yeah. Okay. What you think? What you say to that girl. [00:20:50] The way you label that girl is different to a boy. Just a boy. [00:20:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, why? I mean, there’s a difference, right? Let’s start with this. [00:21:00] Do you think it’s harder being a woman than a man? James O’Brien today. It’s on James O’Brien. [00:21:05] Today we.

Speaker3: Go. Really? What did he say?

Speaker4: He was like a shock. Horror. I can’t believe people think that it’s different. [00:21:10] It’s harder being a man than it’s.

Speaker1: I think it’s definitely harder to be a woman [00:21:15] outside.

Speaker4: Of childbirth, outside of children, just to put children completely, like, crop them out [00:21:20] of the picture. Yeah. To for a second. It’s harder to.

Speaker1: Be a woman, especially in the workplace, [00:21:25] for example, I think thank.

Speaker3: You.

Speaker1: From first hand. From first hand [00:21:30] I can I can tell you the amount of times that you’re, you’re not seemed as on the same level [00:21:35] when you’re in a group of a room with a group of men, you’re sort of looked down upon as your opinion [00:21:40] being you.

Speaker4: Work, you work at Rowena’s practice and there’s a guy who works there. Does she does [00:21:45] she treat you as if you’re not equal to that man?

Speaker1: No. Definitely not. I think it’s [00:21:50] I think it’s more, um. More, um, what’s the word? You know, in corporate, [00:21:55] I think it’s more in corporate settings. Um, you know, and you’re, [00:22:00] you know, you’re looked at as, you know, the receptionist or, you know, the receptionist should be a woman or the PA should be a woman. [00:22:05] Um, and it’s always, you know, the white men in the boardrooms and the women are outside. [00:22:10] Um, and I think it’s hard.

Speaker4: I think that’s a thing.

Speaker1: Now I do, and I do think that does [00:22:15] still happen today. I think I think there are women in in companies now. They are the reason. Just harder. [00:22:20]

Speaker3: I’m not looking right. I’m not. I wasn’t looking at my phone. I wanted to get you some stats. Right. I think it’s really [00:22:25] hard because I have this conversation a lot, even with my male peers and male colleagues, women. [00:22:30] And to be honest with you, Payman, because before I got here, he was like, I’m really worried about you, okay? And all this stuff. [00:22:35] I’m like, I struggle so much being a woman. And sometimes I actually feel a bit like [00:22:40] sad about it because I never thought it was that difficult. And I have to be honest with you, like growing up [00:22:45] with my dad, I was always like a very empowered female. Like, you’ve seen the way my dad is with me and my sister [00:22:50] and my my mom and everything like that. And I think in dentistry it’s so shocking [00:22:55] because what’s the stats? How many women are there compared to men? There’s a lot more.

Speaker4: Just not a lot more. It’s like 53%. [00:23:00]

Speaker3: So okay. And then out of that 53% in comparison, how many are [00:23:05] practice owners? How many of them like run their own thing, you know.

Speaker4: Lower than. [00:23:10]

Speaker3: Lower.

Speaker4: But yeah but that the reason for that listen.

Speaker3: Listen listen listen okay. So [00:23:15] the point is, is that I think that yes, of course, being a woman in [00:23:20] the UK is much better than being a woman in Iran, for example. Yeah, but let’s think [00:23:25] about all the things that are going like worldwide. Like, it’s so sad to think, even in Afghanistan, [00:23:30] that women are being stripped of their education. I know we’re not there. And women of Iran are being murdered [00:23:35] because they’re not wearing hijabs. Like, this is such a sad reality of the world as a whole. Yeah, within [00:23:40] the Western world we have made massive progress. But I still think there’s a lot of things that need to be [00:23:45] done. And I think that there is unfortunately, a little bit of a bias. I’ve even heard men [00:23:50] in the dental industry that say, well, yeah, of course, you know, men are going to be more suitable [00:23:55] to be in a boardroom than women because the reality is women have to have children [00:24:00] and then women have children. They have to take that time off and then the work suffers. [00:24:05] Now, you brought up the childbirth thing already, right? So I get it. I do get what you’re saying, and I understand. I want [00:24:10] to.

Speaker4: Talk about children as well. Yeah. But we starting with outside of children, is [00:24:15] it harder to be a woman in the workplace than a man? I think.

Speaker3: It’s harder being a woman in general.

Speaker4: But. [00:24:20] Well, why? Look. Yes there is. Look, my daughter was telling me three times a day she [00:24:25] has to worry for her safety as she walks down an alley. The thing is, I never considered that. Yeah, and [00:24:30] you know, if that’s a true thing. But listen, I get that.

Speaker3: But I get that. But listen here, like I’m just going to read [00:24:35] you like, this is McKinsey, right? I went on here. So McKinsey. Mckinsey have stated that women [00:24:40] represent roughly 1 in 4 C-suite leaders. And what. And women of colour just 1 [00:24:45] in 16 and saying massive progress needs to be um, massive progress needs to be [00:24:50] made. Made. Exactly. And microaggressions have a micro impact [00:24:55] reality. Microaggressions have a large and lasting impact on women. I tell you, as somebody who has suffered from [00:25:00] microaggression, it scars me and it damages me and it traumatises me. And [00:25:05] I have to sit there and be like, oh, well, don’t make a big deal of it when I know that what [00:25:10] has happened to me is a microaggression, and the way that I’ve been treated has been unfair.

Speaker4: Okay, [00:25:15] but there are certain things that being a man is hard. Totally, totally. You know, it’s [00:25:20] not like a.

Speaker1: I think as well. A lot of, um, men I’ve found are quite [00:25:25] intimidated by a woman, a successful woman. And that can also be a big thing.

Speaker3: And you [00:25:30] might not be paid. But the thing is, is that, for example, it’s really interesting because I might see an amazing [00:25:35] woman online. There’s a girl called Sarah, something she’s, I think, um, Kuwaiti [00:25:40] or she’s from Dubai or something, and she does loads of podcasts. You might have seen a hat, tattoos, [00:25:45] super attractive, lovely. She says, like really interesting, intelligent things. And she works in tech, [00:25:50] by the way, heavily male dominated and is very successful. And you’ll go on the comments and there’s all these men and [00:25:55] I know that there’s, you know, the internet’s the internet with all these men being like, oh, I hate [00:26:00] a woman like this has too much to say. Oh, there we go. Would be a headache. That’s why.

Speaker4: That’s the.

Speaker3: That’s [00:26:05] why we are. That’s why we all prefer younger women. And I’m.

Speaker4: A dick.

Speaker3: Yeah, but I [00:26:10] think.

Speaker4: I do think and there are sorry. There are dick women as well. You know what I mean? There’s good and bad people [00:26:15] around. Yeah. That’s just an idiot.

Speaker1: No, I don’t I don’t think that there’s many women that would comment on a guy [00:26:20] being like, oh, you know, oh, he needs to talk a little bit less like I think that is stereotypically [00:26:25] that does happen.

Speaker4: There’s lots of women who say things about men, right? You know, loads, [00:26:30] especially your generation. They love it. Right.

Speaker3: But the thing [00:26:35] is, is that I do agree with you, and I do think that there really lacks a strong and credible male [00:26:40] role model. I think we really lack good. Yeah. No, [00:26:45] no, but no, but but but what I was going to say was, is that I do feel sorry for men. I do, and I do think it’s hard to [00:26:50] be a young man.

Speaker4: But let’s talk about women. Let’s talk about women. This gender pay gap question. [00:26:55] Yeah. Do you feel it in your business? I don’t like in my business. If it was real [00:27:00] that I could hire women for less than men, I wouldn’t hire any men. Yeah, but I’ve got loads of men working for me. Yeah. [00:27:05] What’s going on.

Speaker3: There? Well, obviously it’s different. I own my own business.

Speaker4: Yeah. So your employees, do you [00:27:10] hire women on purpose? Because they’re cheaper than men?

Speaker3: No, no, I hire who’s good, but also I actually make [00:27:15] a conscious and active effort in my workplace that I have hired. Ellie knows [00:27:20] people from all different backgrounds, all different physicality. It [00:27:25] is so diverse. I’ve had TV channels approach me and say, we want to do a TV programme [00:27:30] about you and your clinic, and I’m like, okay, that’s really weird. They love what I do on social media, but they’re like, we [00:27:35] love what you represent in the clinic. Conversely, someone that I employed in my dental practice, she’s very attractive, [00:27:40] told me that her old boss said that he would only employ very good [00:27:45] looking Eastern Europeans because he wanted to give that vibe in his workplace. Now. [00:27:50] Okay, fine, that’s his own agenda. But that’s not really fair, is it?

Speaker4: Oh, nothing’s [00:27:55] fair, right? So if you’re if you’re if you’re hiring people because of their diversity. Yeah.

Speaker3: No, [00:28:00] I’m making.

Speaker4: You’re discriminating against other people who aren’t.

Speaker3: You didn’t have construed [00:28:05] that. You’ve misconstrued that. You kind of said that.

Speaker4: You said on purpose. I made an active I made a.

Speaker3: Conscious [00:28:10] decision to make sure that I give people of all colours, races, [00:28:15] sizes, etc. equal opportunities. Difference. I’m consciously just [00:28:20] like, I’m just going to hire them just because they’re non-binary or you know what [00:28:25] I mean? I’m hire. I’m making an active decision in my recruitment process to allow for people [00:28:30] of different physicalities backgrounds, etc., and I will employ people based on their merits and [00:28:35] their ability to do the job, whereas some people might subconsciously or consciously not interview [00:28:40] people.

Speaker4: I’ve done it myself. I’ve done it myself. If I’m being totally honest, I’ve done it myself. Okay, yeah. [00:28:45] Um, and you know, you walk into a top restaurant and a beautiful lady [00:28:50] is there greeting you. And you know, that wasn’t by mistake. You know, that was on purpose. [00:28:55] Yeah. Um, we hire models. We we hire salespeople. I’ve definitely done it. I’ve definitely done [00:29:00] it. Um.

Speaker1: I think we’ve. As a woman. Yeah. Like you think about all the things that, [00:29:05] you know, you’re brought up to, that you experience, you know, like from a young age, you’re sexualised, [00:29:10] you know, things like that happen, like, you know, from the age of 12 or 13, I get on the bus [00:29:15] and, you know, I’d have my ass slapped or something. And you just have to accept that. That’s a that’s a thing. Well, obviously you don’t. [00:29:20] But but things like that happen and you know, from young ages, you know, you you don’t realise what you’re doing. [00:29:25] But going to clubs in Mayfair when you’re, when you go, go up to London on a night out and [00:29:30] you’re queuing to go into a club and you’ve got a promoter and you’re all in your dresses, in heels [00:29:35] and you know, for some reason you’re getting in for free and then for some reason you’re getting on a table and then for some reason, [00:29:40] you’re getting free drinks all night and you’re like, you don’t actually stop for a moment and realise like, wait, why is this [00:29:45] happening? And I think females.

Speaker3: Are hyper sexualised from a young age. And if you think about it, even like Britney Spears, [00:29:50] we talk about it. I loved Britney growing up. She was 16 and hit me baby, one more time. Let’s just take that. [00:29:55] You’ve got kids. 16 and there were men in their 30s and 40s, like [00:30:00] going crazy over Britney Spears. And now Britney Spears is what, in like her 40s. [00:30:05] Now I think she’s in her 40s. I’m not sure. And you know, people are like, oh, she looks so gross. I’m like, she [00:30:10] doesn’t look gross. But, you know, at the end of the day, she was so young. And that goes for all of them. You [00:30:15] know, you watch the supermodel program with Cindy and Nicole.

Speaker4: The thing is, the flip [00:30:20] side of that sexualised thing is the oppressed thing. And [00:30:25] I’d much rather have sexualised than oppressed.

Speaker3: What do you mean when you think about your own country?

Speaker4: Just the flip. Yeah. You [00:30:30] know, uh, Iran. Anyway, I’m. You’re saying women are sexualised. [00:30:35] Yeah. All right, there’s that issue. You don’t want people sexualised only. Only sexualised. Yeah, [00:30:40] but the flip side of that is a is a place where women are held back [00:30:45] covered, you know, can’t, can’t dress as they want.

Speaker1: But why can’t women just be women? Why [00:30:50] has it got to be one or the other? Why do they have to be sexualised or oppressed? Why can’t they just [00:30:55] exist without feeling like one of those things is happening?

Speaker4: It’s a good [00:31:00] question.

Speaker5: Ha ha. It’s good. No.

Speaker4: But it’s a good question. Why do you think? [00:31:05]

Speaker1: I truly don’t know. I don’t know why.

Speaker3: I think that the value of a [00:31:10] woman is based on obsessed with women, literally. And I have to tell you that, like, [00:31:15] if I’m honest and transparent as I always am, I had a little bit of a panic attack this year [00:31:20] because I was like, oh my God, I’m going to be 37 this year. And I started feeling all this wrath of [00:31:25] judgement from society that hasn’t even happened yet. But it was like, I’m like, I’ve [00:31:30] not done enough. I’ve not had a kid yet, I’ve not done this. And I was like, I actually just got really upset [00:31:35] and I don’t know why. And I was like, I’m not good enough. And I was like, and it’s just such a sad feeling, [00:31:40] you know what I mean?

Speaker1: We have a time limit as women limit which men don’t have. You [00:31:45] can’t be. You have a kid. You have a kid.

Speaker4: We said, we said, this crop kids are okay, let’s crop kids back [00:31:50] in. Let’s let’s crop kids back in. Go on. Okay. I definitely agree that that [00:31:55] kids affect careers of women. They do? Yeah. Now you [00:32:00] can go two ways with that. You can say why should they? Why shouldn’t the man’s career be affected just as [00:32:05] much as the woman’s? I’m telling you, it’s just not the case. It’s just not.

Speaker3: But biologically, it can’t [00:32:10] be.

Speaker4: It’s just not the case. So then, are you suggesting that there should be a bias, [00:32:15] like, should women with children be paid more than women without children? And should women be paid [00:32:20] more than men? And then, you know, then where does it go. Right. Should, should, should, [00:32:25] should Simon Chard have a handicap in his pay because he’s getting benefit [00:32:30] from his height. Yeah. Do you mean it’s, you know, it’s not an equal playground [00:32:35] even within women. It’s not an equal.

Speaker3: Again, like we’re talking about like the societal [00:32:40] thing as well. Like for example, what should.

Speaker4: We do about it?

Speaker3: No. But like for example, you [00:32:45] said like coming from, you know, a sort of Iranian background, etc., you have [00:32:50] an ideal of like a female body type or like working in the or like living in the 90s. [00:32:55] No, we had this that we had this discussion and I don’t blame you. And it’s the same with my mom. And I’m sure it’s the same [00:33:00] with your parents. And it’s like you just said, like height is something that like, people are like, that’s amazing and [00:33:05] such a great thing, but like society created that. And if you look, it was really funny. Have you watched Saltburn?

Speaker4: I’ve [00:33:10] heard. No.

Speaker3: Yeah. So for example, there’s two. Yeah. Okay. There’s two main actors in it, a guy [00:33:15] called Barry Keoghan. Yeah, he is like basically Irish and I think he’s like five foot seven. [00:33:20] He’s not tall at all, came from like a really working class background. And then [00:33:25] the co-star in it is a guy that I’m obsessed with from euphoria, a guy called Jacob Elordi. I don’t [00:33:30] know if you saw me. I did a whole TikTok on him anyways, and he’s like six foot seven, for example. [00:33:35] They act together and it’s so funny. And Eddie was like, I just think Barry’s so much better looking and more attractive. [00:33:40] And I was like, oh my God, I love Jacob Elordi. But it’s funny how like now, like the great [00:33:45] thing is, is you were saying like we are, the more we start to be open to different things, like a man doesn’t need [00:33:50] to be six foot to be attractive. My fiance is not six foot, you know what I mean? He’s my height, you know? [00:33:55] So like I feel like. But we’re now understanding that like it actually comes in different shapes and [00:34:00] sizes. And although you may disagree like I know you don’t like love Kim K, for example, but she’s still [00:34:05] celebrated as one of the most beautiful women, and she broke the mould, like coming in and being like, I’ve got a [00:34:10] small waist, big hips. And people were like, wow, do you know what I mean? And like, despite that, I [00:34:15] think you’re saying like people shouldn’t. Society made this problem like it was just decided the tall, [00:34:20] white, blonde, blue eyed man was the thing, you know, like that [00:34:25] is like the chosen person. But in reality, that’s just a societal thing that was [00:34:30] put out. It’s not reality. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker4: Yeah, but so what?

Speaker3: But what I’m trying to say to you is when you’re [00:34:35] saying, like, should someone be punished for being that. No, they shouldn’t be punished, but we should be celebrating all the other differences.

Speaker5: Okay, [00:34:40] okay, okay.

Speaker4: But you know, we were talking about gender pay gap. Yeah. And is it harder [00:34:45] being a woman than a man. And you know, there are these odd areas where, you know, the strength, [00:34:50] muscle strength of a woman puts her in a disadvantage. Right. So, like we [00:34:55] were saying, down a dark alley, if there’s a guy behind you, you have to properly worry, whereas I don’t. I just [00:35:00] walk down. I don’t think about it. Yeah. So yes. That obviously. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yes [00:35:05] I could probably bench press. I could probably bench press more than, more than some [00:35:10] men.

Speaker5: Okay. All right, I hear you, I hear you.

Speaker4: But day to day in your job, in your life, [00:35:15] going and buying your coffee, asking people for money, putting things forward, [00:35:20] though, you know, I don’t feel my daughter is disadvantaged compared to my [00:35:25] son in the world. I don’t I don’t see it in that sense. Mhm.

Speaker3: Well, [00:35:30] I think you’re lucky. And let’s hope that your daughter never has to experience some of the things that we have to experience, [00:35:35] because I hadn’t experienced what I would call differences in gender until the last [00:35:40] three years, and I’ve been lucky enough not to have experienced what I thought. But I have. And I think [00:35:45] when you do, you recognise and unfortunate, as you said, Ellie said, but why can’t we just exist? [00:35:50] And I think in my experience now I’ve been like, oh, I’m being, I don’t want to [00:35:55] say used, but I’m only my value is only seen for like the way I look. Can like flogging [00:36:00] something, for example. Does that make sense? And that’s really hard as well, because it makes me [00:36:05] feel like my value will diminish once I get older or lose.

Speaker5: You know, super.

Speaker4: Successful, [00:36:10] right?

Speaker3: Yeah, but I’m.

Speaker4: Not only because of the way there are other pretty totally. There are other pretty dentists. [00:36:15]

Speaker3: Yeah, of course, he tells me all the time, I know that, yeah.

Speaker4: It’s just [00:36:20] there are other pretty dentists who are not achieving what you’re achieving. Yeah. So, you know, it’s not [00:36:25] just the way you listen.

Speaker3: I think we’re not going to sort out the gender pay gap. So I’m going to move on. Right. So so [00:36:30] okay. So I would describe you. You’re not only a social media manager, [00:36:35] but you’re also an entrepreneur. So can you tell us a little bit about the company that you’ve started, which is [00:36:40] Sia and how it was founded, what inspired you to start it and what was your vision behind it?

Speaker1: Yes. [00:36:45] So the company, the company that I founded is sirens social media marketing agency, [00:36:50] and that specialises in like personal branding. And because over the years working in social [00:36:55] media, I’ve just found that people buy from people and storytelling [00:37:00] is what is so important. So if you’re on there, um, on any social media channel talking [00:37:05] about your brand all the time, promoting a product, people just swipe on, they don’t care. But [00:37:10] if it’s people, it’s you that they want to get to know. So if you’re able to get into the hearts [00:37:15] of the people by showing who you are and talking about yourself, that’s the way that that’s the way that [00:37:20] you succeed on social media. And I think I just felt such a connection to that. And I was like, wow, there’s really something [00:37:25] here with personal branding and why was.

Speaker3: It TikTok over Instagram?

Speaker1: So I did originally work on other [00:37:30] channels I originally had. I originally was a social media manager for all channels, and I just [00:37:35] saw the growth on TikTok, the potential, the reach, um, and just how you’re [00:37:40] able to get into such into, you know, the hearts of billions of people. It’s the fast, one of the fastest [00:37:45] growing apps in the world, um, you know, almost 2 billion active users. So it’s very, [00:37:50] very, um, you know, growing at a rapid, rapid pace. So I just think the the [00:37:55] growth that I’ve seen and the potential on, on app, on and off app, um, is amazing. [00:38:00] And I think it’s so important now for everyone. Um.

Speaker4: Take us through maybe [00:38:05] three tips that are.

Speaker3: Before she goes into that though. How was siren born? Yeah. So [00:38:10] because I think one of the big jumps for people to start a business on their own, we’ve they know our story. But how did it happen [00:38:15] for you and at such a young age?

Speaker1: Yeah. So I’ve always loved social media. Always. Um, and I think, [00:38:20] um, it’s always something that I fell into. So, so when I did go to university, I ended up doing journalism. [00:38:25] Um, and I did print journalism, and obviously that was quite a dying industry. So [00:38:30] a lot, which is very sad. But yeah, a lot of, a lot of my degree focussed on, [00:38:35] um, marketing and online marketing and things like that. And social media was a small aspect of [00:38:40] that, and that was where I first understood what sort of marketing was, and I just fell and fell in love with it. And [00:38:45] I knew that was always something that I wanted to do. Um, and then, you know, that that finished [00:38:50] and the first kind of social media thing I got into was in lockdown. I started a candle business, [00:38:55] as everyone did. Yeah, on the side, a little side hustle in lockdown. And [00:39:00] apart from like selling to family and friends, I was like, how else am I going to, you know, get the word out about about this [00:39:05] candle business. And so I started up social media pages for it. So I started posting on Instagram [00:39:10] and, um, you know, then I got got into doing like advertisement, TikTok ads and, [00:39:15] um, social media ads and Facebook and Instagram and understanding what all that was. And I literally just taught myself. [00:39:20] And that was sort of how I really got into like social media thing. So yeah, then [00:39:25] I got my first job in social media, uh, from that. Um, but then, yeah, [00:39:30] I don’t want to obviously mention too many. I don’t want a specific mention.

Speaker3: About what’s.

Speaker1: Fine about [00:39:35] the situation.

Speaker3: Yeah, okay.

Speaker1: Go on. I’m trying to think how I can word it, like how I did it on my own.

Speaker3: Working for [00:39:40] another company, and then and then.

Speaker1: Realised I. Yeah, I can say actually, like, um, you know, throughout [00:39:45] school and everything, um, school and work after that, uh, where I had social [00:39:50] media, my first job in social media, um, like firstly from school being told [00:39:55] to that I was never good enough, that was never going to succeed, that I was too loud getting put on report card, [00:40:00] then going into, um, you know, working for other people. I think I always [00:40:05] had such a business mindset, you know, when I started my candle business. But then I was still working for other people, [00:40:10] and I hated that I was working my ass off for someone else’s [00:40:15] dream. I always hated that. So I knew I was I knew I was better than than [00:40:20] working for someone else. It’s absolutely fine with that. People do that and that’s absolutely fine. Do you think I just.

Speaker3: Feel like that [00:40:25] Payman that they don’t like working their asses off for other people’s dream or not? Do you think because.

Speaker4: It’s it’s the reason why [00:40:30] people start their own practices, isn’t it? Because it’s not necessarily about the the cash. [00:40:35] It’s about the control over what the thing is, right.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker1: And I think that’s [00:40:40] what I had. And that’s why I ended up, um, starting up siren. I just, you know, I always wanted to do something on my [00:40:45] own. I found my love of social media. I found my love for TikTok. And it got to a point where I was like, [00:40:50] I can do this on my own. And so, yeah. Then siren, would.

Speaker4: You get your first customers? [00:40:55]

Speaker1: Um, who are my.

Speaker5: Came to get [00:41:00] my teeth whitened. And so.

Speaker4: Were you. A dentist?

Speaker3: Actually, I’ll tell you now, what happened was, [00:41:05] is that for some reason, I got, you know, how you get all these generic emails and you’re like, you never respond. But for [00:41:10] some reason, I opened it and the email was literally like, we love your account. We’re a tick tock agency. [00:41:15] We help growth. La la la. We love everything you’re about. So I arranged then for a meeting with the company [00:41:20] that she was at, and then I was like, this is a massive punt. And by the way, it was a big investment. [00:41:25] Tick tock wasn’t that big at that time. It was still like a little bit early. It was just after lockdown [00:41:30] and then I just fell in love with Ellie, like everything about her. Like she was getting my receptionist [00:41:35] to do dance routines. She was like getting my staff members [00:41:40] to do, like, do you know what I mean? Like all that pointy stuff.

Speaker4: Your endodontist was telling me he trended.

Speaker3: Yeah, [00:41:45] yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you imagine? Like, I was even getting Aram, like, you know how specialists are, like, [00:41:50] I’m not doing any of that stuff. And they’re so scared of, like, the professor’s judging them. Yeah, but she got them. And I was like, wow, [00:41:55] this is incredible. And I was like, I need her in house. But the thing is, is that I would always I would never sort of want to box [00:42:00] someone up like she had to fly. And the thing is, is that she wanted to spread her wings and then the company that [00:42:05] she was with it, just like our visions didn’t align because as I said, like, and you know, with enlighten as well, [00:42:10] you either have a choice in business, like you become a big corporation and you lose [00:42:15] the personal touch and the personal relationships, or you stick with the personal people and continue [00:42:20] harnessing those relationships. And the beautiful thing about enlighten is, you know, is that you like that personability, you know, whereas like [00:42:25] your competitor brands are like about the big number at the end, for example, you know, so I think that [00:42:30] and they don’t necessarily they just care about volume necessarily companies.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker3: Yeah. But to be honest, [00:42:35] and that’s the thing that’s like with Chelsea Dental, people are like, do you want 40 Chelsea Dental don’t really want that because I like, [00:42:40] like that special touch that we give people. So as her human touch. And then when she started [00:42:45] her own thing, I was like, right. You know, I was like, I need to find her again. Um, I [00:42:50] need to find her again. And I did. And then Ellie and I started working together, and I recommended [00:42:55] her to all of my, um, friends, and they were, like, astounded [00:43:00] by the growth that they’ve had on social media. And it makes your life so easy. Payman. Because [00:43:05] all of the scripts, all of the posts, everything trending on one page, [00:43:10] done in a day, that’s it. You know what I mean? You know.

Speaker4: So when when you started [00:43:15] TikTok, when was it? What was it? Was there a particular video that [00:43:20] made you think, I can do this? Um, and also what how much of [00:43:25] it is science and how much of it is art?

Speaker1: That’s actually a very good question. So to answer the first [00:43:30] one, I think, um, what was the first one again?

Speaker4: Was there a particular video you made that trended? [00:43:35]

Speaker1: So I think the first one that we did with the first one that we did with [00:43:40] you, with the things that dentists can tell about your mouth.

Speaker3: Oh, that trended, [00:43:45] you know what I’m talking about.

Speaker1: We did too. So we did one with Sarah. And I think that got [00:43:50] that got to like 3.5 million. And then we did one with you. We did a part two because it [00:43:55] did so well. And that got to about 9 million or something. And it was a bit like, oh my gosh, okay. But [00:44:00] I think it’s not, it’s it’s not just the views. Tiktok isn’t just about the views. It’s about building [00:44:05] a community and a loyal community. And, you know, people coming in the comments and like, so yeah, [00:44:10] it’s great to go viral, but to be able to have that community and the people that follow you and come back for [00:44:15] each post and comment and interact and save and share, that’s what is so [00:44:20] great about it. And I think it’s not just the on app consequences, it’s the off app consequences too. So, [00:44:25] you know, you can do a really good video and then you open up the, um, you know, your news tab [00:44:30] on your, on Google and you’re, you’re in okay magazine.

Speaker3: Not just Stewart bags. [00:44:35] They, they did a thing called vaping tongue. Stewart was contacted by like six different national newspapers [00:44:40] and asked to go on the radio about vaping.

Speaker1: Radio vape.

Speaker4: Vape is one of those trending subjects, [00:44:45] isn’t it?

Speaker5: Yeah. Vaping people want to send.

Speaker4: It to people to say stop vaping.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker1: So all that [00:44:50] kind of stuff and, you know, brand partnerships that come from it and it’s it’s not just about the views [00:44:55] and going viral.

Speaker4: But so let’s talk about the science part and the art part. So, you know, in [00:45:00] my crappy little knowledge is all right. First three seconds. Yes.

Speaker1: So the first three seconds. Yeah.

Speaker4: Very important [00:45:05] I noticed when when you do your vids you don’t start with hi I’m Rona. You never start with [00:45:10] the hook. Exactly.

Speaker3: So she always gives me the hook and the negative hook because we want to tell our audience like a.

Speaker5: Like [00:45:15] a.

Speaker4: Sensational hook. So you’ll say something like, can your teeth make you [00:45:20] sexier than you are? Like, that would be the hook. Yeah, whatever. Whatever it is.

Speaker3: Or I think three things I would [00:45:25] never do.

Speaker5: As a dentist.

Speaker3: Says the negative, negative, the negative.

Speaker1: Numbers, they all work very [00:45:30] well. And then you come in with your authority. So the three seconds are the most important. You have [00:45:35] three seconds. Tick tock. The people. Yeah. Scroll exactly. They have no attention span. [00:45:40] So you have three seconds to grab them. But you also don’t want to grab them like in a clickbaity way where it’s like, [00:45:45] um, you know, oh, I’ll say something really important and then not and exactly. And then not follow up with it. So [00:45:50] saying that big hook, um, talking about what it is, introducing who you are, why [00:45:55] are you an authority to give me this piece of knowledge? Um, and then. So keeping them hanging for [00:46:00] a bit longer because the five to second seven second mark is just as important as the three seconds. [00:46:05]

Speaker4: So for the reach.

Speaker1: Yes, exactly. So yes, get them at the three seconds. But then you need to follow it up. So [00:46:10] give them the three the three second hook. Follow it up with who you are and why you’re an authority. Give [00:46:15] them a little bit more information about what you’re going to chat about and then go into, you know, your three things.

Speaker4: And [00:46:20] so I’d call all of that the science. Yeah. What about what about the art.

Speaker1: And the art? The art I guess [00:46:25] that’s the creativity side. So what’s trending and what are people talking about this week? What’s happening in [00:46:30] the news. So for example, um, you know, I did a video with a couple of clients the other week about, um, [00:46:35] Kylie Jenner showed up to the red carpet extremely naturally done with her makeup. [00:46:40] Um, you know, and everyone was talking about how her filler looked so bad. Filler was basically she looked really bad. [00:46:45] Um, and that had just happened. And I jumped on that with a client, um, Doctor [00:46:50] Divine, uh, he actually did it. Um, he did it off the back of my me and another client. So I actually did this with, [00:46:55] um, a separate client, and we jumped on it, and she, she does facial aesthetics, and she’s [00:47:00] basically spoke about how, um, Kylie Jenner has definitely had, like, under-eye filler. It could be a few other [00:47:05] things, but I think this is what it is. And we jumped on it because it was trending and it overnight got to [00:47:10] 2 million views overnight. Everyone talking about it in the comments, everyone sharing about it. So you know it’s [00:47:15] being reactive. It’s all about jumping on things that are um, on trend and being reactive. [00:47:20] And I always say for TikTok, you need to show up and you need to talk about three different. [00:47:25] It needs to you need you need to either fall into three different categories. You either need to entertain, educate [00:47:30] or, um, provide emotion. And I think the audience needs to get [00:47:35] something, get one of those three things from your video for it to do well and for it to speak to people. So you’re either, you know, [00:47:40] doing something really, really funny that’s hilarious and going to go viral and be silly. You’re going on to educate, which [00:47:45] is normally what I do with my clients. You know, they all have something to say. They all have a piece to educate about. [00:47:50] Um, or you need to draw out the emotion and that always does well the storytelling, the pulling at the heartstrings. [00:47:55] You know, you’re very good at that kind of side.

Speaker3: So one thing was obviously [00:48:00] like when I sent Ellie a couple of clients, they’re incredible dentists, really [00:48:05] talented. But, um, they were getting frustrated that they weren’t getting viral. And it was also [00:48:10] like they were too obsessed with the way other professionals would perceive [00:48:15] them. Yeah. Does that make sense? Which I think is a challenge. And it’s like, you know, I’ve got like Doctor Rona Academy now [00:48:20] and loads of like my students are amazing, um, young women and like a lot of them [00:48:25] come to me because they feel like they could relate to me and talk to me about certain things. And it’s really interesting because I’m like, have you started [00:48:30] an Instagram? And they’re like, no, I’m really scared. And I’m like, start the first post with [00:48:35] like a photo of yourself explaining who you are. Like, think like decide on a logo. Do you know what’s the one [00:48:40] thing that holds them back? Dentists from starting social media? Guess what it.

Speaker5: Is other.

Speaker4: Dentists seeing [00:48:45] their work.

Speaker3: They worried about the judgement. The judgement of what other people will think of their [00:48:50] page.

Speaker1: Yeah, that is a massive thing. That’s that’s a big thing that you see that clients. Oh, 100%, [00:48:55] 100%. That’s probably the biggest thing. I actually did a TikTok video myself about the one thing. [00:49:00] What is the one thing that’s holding people back from succeeding on TikTok? And it is themselves and not being able to get [00:49:05] over the cringe or get over the fact that they’re scared that that’s going to flop. And for me, I’ve just [00:49:10] always been that kind of person where it’s like, just post it, like, just fuck it and post it. Yeah.

Speaker3: That’s right. [00:49:15]

Speaker1: Um, just like, just post it. So what? It flops. So what, you get 300, 300, [00:49:20] 400 views, you show up again and you post again. And that is what’s so important. The consistency [00:49:25] showing up and posting. And if you can’t get over that cringe, you’re not going to succeed on TikTok. [00:49:30] You’re not going to do well.

Speaker4: You know what though, Bruno? Yeah. When I saw you start doing TikTok, I was I [00:49:35] wasn’t aware of you today.

Speaker3: But she wasn’t in the picture at the beginning. Maybe.

Speaker5: Yeah, but.

Speaker4: I [00:49:40] took my hat off to you. Yeah. Because, you know, it’s difficult when you’ve got 100,000 followers [00:49:45] on one platform to go on to another platform where you haven’t got many followers and [00:49:50] fail day after day after day and keep going. Yeah, I was.

Speaker3: Literally on like ten views and at [00:49:55] that time going.

Speaker5: At it, making more and more and more.

Speaker3: Dog doctor shady was [00:50:00] like killed it because she was like one of our the dentists first on it and she like grew astronomically overnight. [00:50:05] Like she was the one that started like the turkey teeth sort of chat. Yeah. Um, but I was and I was like, I hate [00:50:10] TikTok. So Gen Z, it’s not me. But then I was like, self-limiting belief. And also [00:50:15] like, are you being a bit competitive? Like, you’ve just got to go on and can I tell you now, I way prefer TikTok than Instagram because there’s [00:50:20] less dentists on there and there’s less of that trolling and that like weirdness on there as well.

Speaker5: Well, I.

Speaker4: Prefer [00:50:25] it as a consumer.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker5: Think it’s much better.

Speaker4: So the algorithm is it’s on.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker4: There’s [00:50:30] something about the algorithm isn’t it.

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s the algorithm is ever changing. But the how [00:50:35] do.

Speaker3: You keep up with.

Speaker1: It. So yeah, anyone that tells you that they know the algorithm or [00:50:40] they’ve cracked the algorithm is lying to you. You cannot crack the algorithm. You don’t know what the algorithm is, but [00:50:45] you can learn to adapt to it and grow with it and understand it. Um, [00:50:50] but essentially everyone’s algorithm is different. You know, what you see on your for You page is the thing that gets you all addicted. [00:50:55] So, you know, if you watch a video about dogs. And you watch the video all the way [00:51:00] through, from beginning to end. Tick tock goes straight away. Wow, they loved that video because they [00:51:05] watched it all the way through. So they’re going to start showing you more videos about dogs. If you comment [00:51:10] on the video and tag someone oh my god, check out this dog video or you share it again. Same thing [00:51:15] and you keep doing it. Things like that. So all this kind of engagement that you’re doing is telling tick tock [00:51:20] and telling the algorithm, oh, I really like that piece of content. So you’ll start seeing more of it and more of it. And [00:51:25] that’s how it gets so addictive. Um, so yeah, but the algorithm for everyone is different, [00:51:30] and it all depends on how you engage with specific content as to what you’re going [00:51:35] to see on your for you page. So yes, you can’t crack the algorithm, you can’t understand it.

Speaker4: But one of the things [00:51:40] is it defaults to the for you page. Yeah. Whereas Instagram doesn’t. Yes [00:51:45] Instagram has it discover right?

Speaker1: Yes.

Speaker4: The explore page doesn’t doesn’t. Yeah. Default [00:51:50] to it. So you might go there. Yes.

Speaker1: But I think um for me I that’s [00:51:55] why I, I love um sort of tick tock for top of the reach top of the funnel [00:52:00] marketing because Instagram for me is more about community and how you’ve got your followers and you post [00:52:05] what you’re up to and it’s lovely and it’s it’s very filtered and people can click on it and like it. [00:52:10] Whereas Tick Tock is completely raw, completely unfiltered, completely new. You’re [00:52:15] you’re defaulted to that for you page. You’re going to see things you’ve never seen before from videos.

Speaker3: But I also think [00:52:20] Gen Z are a little bit just more sassy as well as in like, I think that they like to be involved in lots of [00:52:25] different issues and have lots of different opinions, and I.

Speaker5: Think [00:52:30] it’s.

Speaker4: Still a Gen Z platform.

Speaker1: No, it’s not really.

Speaker5: Every all of.

Speaker4: My friends are on [00:52:35] it.

Speaker5: My buddies, the biggest.

Speaker1: Growing age group is like the 25 to 30s in both male and male and female. [00:52:40] Yeah, that’s like the biggest interesting. Um, yeah. There’s like it’s a very, very fast growing. [00:52:45] It’s. Yeah, definitely naive to say it’s still, you know, that dancey Tik Tok platform for [00:52:50] 18 year olds.

Speaker3: I remember those days like during lockdown. Yeah. Horrendous.

Speaker1: It’s not anymore as.

Speaker4: As [00:52:55] a, as a force for evil. So we can see as a force for good. Fine. Yes. [00:53:00] But one thing that happens to me is I go into this like death hole.

Speaker5: Yes. The rabbit hole scroll. [00:53:05] Yeah.

Speaker4: And and time just goes. Yeah. And I worry for my kids, [00:53:10] like my daughter’s not allowed it, but she’s found it on, on on YouTube anyway. Yeah. I mean YouTube shorts, [00:53:15] YouTube shorts.

Speaker5: It’s like, it’s like.

Speaker4: A crappy version of so but but you know, what does it do [00:53:20] to people’s mental health?

Speaker1: Yeah, I think any, any, any consumption of social [00:53:25] over consumption of social media is not good. I think, you know, that can be said for any social [00:53:30] media platform, not just TikTok. I think Instagram is just as damaging. It does. And the average [00:53:35] watch time is about 1.5 hours a day, so it is crazy.

Speaker3: The good [00:53:40] thing is, the good thing is about Ellie managing my TikTok. I spend a lot, lot, a lot longer on Instagram. [00:53:45] Whereas like every now and then I’m like, oh, Ellie’s just posted, let me see how that video’s done. But [00:53:50] I don’t spend hours and hours on it. Do you see what I mean? Like every now and then I might go, but I don’t get into [00:53:55] I get more into a scrolling. And also the messaging service on TikTok is [00:54:00] like a lot less. Yeah, it’s weird. So you can’t be asked, as in, like with Instagram, you can do a whole like just replying [00:54:05] to DMs situation. Yeah. Um, I want to ask you as well, do you think timing matters? Because [00:54:10] you know how people get obsessed not only with what they post, but the time they post as well? Is that important? [00:54:15]

Speaker1: No, I don’t think that’s important at all on TikTok. I’ve tried all the different times I’ve tried, ahm, [00:54:20] I’ve tried 6 p.m.. Yeah, 1 p.m., 6 p.m. I normally do, um, and [00:54:25] it doesn’t make a difference. If it’s a good piece of content, it’s going to do well. It doesn’t matter when you post [00:54:30] it. A lot of people’s, um, follower time that they’re most active is normally around 10:11 p.m. [00:54:35] because they get into bed and they’re scrolling. So people think, oh, I’ll post around 10:11 p.m. [00:54:40] because that’s when my audience is all on. But TikTok doesn’t work like that. The algorithm is slow. It can take [00:54:45] two days for a video to start popping up on people’s for you pages just because something’s [00:54:50] just been posted. When it when your followers were active, doesn’t mean it’s instantly going to do well and blow up.

Speaker5: So [00:54:55] is there a.

Speaker4: Frequency, the number of posts a day?

Speaker1: That is so people I’ve seen a lot of people [00:55:00] that are on TikTok say you need to be you need to be posting 3 to 4 times a day to do well. You know, you need to [00:55:05] be posting 3 to 4 times a day. I don’t think that that’s true. Um, I my clients, for example, you know, we [00:55:10] post like once a day or once every weekday and they still do extremely well, [00:55:15] more like go way more viral and have way more followers and have way more engaged of an engaged community. [00:55:20] Then I think.

Speaker3: When it.

Speaker1: Started, yeah, maybe.

Speaker3: When it started, not now, but.

Speaker1: Now [00:55:25] I don’t think. I think as long as you’re consistent, whether that’s, you know, showing up every day or as much [00:55:30] as you can, it’s I think it’s not taking those big breaks, you know, posting every day and then falling [00:55:35] off for two weeks because you can’t be bothered.

Speaker4: About the fact that, like when something comes up on my on [00:55:40] my thing that I like, right, I’m not going to immediately follow them. I’m going to go on to their page [00:55:45] and see if there’s more of that. Yeah. And if there is more of that, I might follow them. Yes. But [00:55:50] what that means is you end up doing to be successful. You could be quite narrow. Yep. [00:55:55]

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker4: That’s because if I, if I, if she says something. I like, and then I go on to a page [00:56:00] and there isn’t much else of her talking. Yeah, then I’m not going to follow that [00:56:05] page. And it means, like tactically, you’re sort of limiting each page to [00:56:10] a small amount of things. Is that right?

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker3: Well, we tried this as well, like I said to Ellie, because, [00:56:15] you know, I’m like obviously passionate about like fashion and things like that. I was like, oh, I really want to [00:56:20] do like those like, you know, styled with me and get ready with me. And like we did a few [00:56:25] and some of them did okay, but they really didn’t do as well as my Dental ones. And [00:56:30] she was like, listen, we’ve placed you as an educator. That’s why people like your page. We [00:56:35] can’t go too off piste just because you want to do it. And it’s interesting because Shivani said the same as well, [00:56:40] because when I said finally, like you’ve just thrown in 100,000 followers on Instagram, I was like, it’s amazing. She’s like, [00:56:45] oh, I’m not that bothered. She was like, you know, video is going viral. Doesn’t lead to me having more subscribers on [00:56:50] YouTube or like Spotify, which is where I’m looking for it. She’s like, because it’s a video that went viral. She’s [00:56:55] like, whereas I need people. She’s like, the reason you convert to a follower is if someone sees [00:57:00] your piece of content and then they go on your page and they’ll only follow you if they think that your page will provide [00:57:05] value. Just because they’ve interacted with your video doesn’t mean it will, like turn into a follower. [00:57:10] Does that make sense? You know, so I think it’s like important that you understand it’s that typical [00:57:15] thing. Simon Sinek know your why. Why are you building this page 100%?

Speaker1: It’s essential [00:57:20] to have a niche. You don’t want a niche down too much to to like an extreme niche, but [00:57:25] you don’t want to be too broad where you’re like tapping into different things. You’re not going to get followers because people are like, [00:57:30] I’m not interested in this. What are they even posting about? However, if you’re providing a specific amount of value [00:57:35] on a certain topic that people are interested in, you’re going to get that follower base. And [00:57:40] so it’s important to stay consistent and stick and stick within your niche like we’ve tried other things. [00:57:45] And it can work. And it’s good to show other aspects but always come back to that [00:57:50] niche, I think. And that’s I think what’s important to keep that consistency.

Speaker4: Tiktok influencers, are they different to, [00:57:55] you know, you’d imagine Instagram classic pretty girl influencer. Yeah. Oh it’s a different type [00:58:00] of influencer right.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker1: Because I think again, it’s that whole, you know, Instagram is all about being pretty and filters [00:58:05] and editing. And there are on TikTok.

Speaker3: I’ve seen stunning girls promote makeup.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s more but I think it’s more [00:58:10] about, um, storytelling. Whereas Instagram, you know, you post a video. Yeah, you might do a reel, [00:58:15] but I think for TikTok it’s more unfiltered. It’s more, you know, vlogging style. Come with me today. [00:58:20]

Speaker3: There’s a girl I follow in, uh, um, New York, and she always tell us how funny dating [00:58:25] stories, and she’s, like, doing her makeup. She’s beautiful and she’s literally. So everyone asks me about [00:58:30] the dating app Raya. So I’m going to give you my opinion on Raya, but she’s also doing her makeup. And people [00:58:35] in the comments are like, where’s your foundation from? Like.

Speaker4: I even follow someone you know, she speaks [00:58:40] really quickly. Do you know her? Mad, mad, mad mad. She talks really [00:58:45] quickly, but she’s doing her makeup and she’s talking about some dates she’s been on.

Speaker5: Oh yeah, and they probably.

Speaker1: Talk about how they’ve [00:58:50] got five minutes to get ready.

Speaker3: As well. She does. Those stars don’t take chance literally.

Speaker1: That’s actually the number [00:58:55] one. Um, the number one most loved type of video on TikTok is the get ready with me one night. [00:59:00]

Speaker5: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: So getting ready and chatting. People love it because you’re, you know, you’re telling maybe [00:59:05] a fun story, but then you’re also getting ready and people love to like, find out where your makeup is from and all that kind of stuff. And [00:59:10] it’s storytelling again.

Speaker5: Do you think.

Speaker4: You know Instagram? We know what Dental Instagram is. [00:59:15] Yeah, there’s before and afters. There’s yes, there’s there’s sort of um, [00:59:20] you know, pictures, videos, you know, dentist educating. But we’re not really [00:59:25] sure what Dental TikTok is. You know, there aren’t you know, there’s who’s been [00:59:30] successful on TikTok. Shardae.

Speaker5: Laura.

Speaker4: Laura you little right. You’ve got to put yourself [00:59:35] in it for foodie dentist.

Speaker3: She’s she surged.

Speaker5: Yeah.

Speaker4: Who else. But you know what I mean. If I’ve [00:59:40] got a dental practice and I want a dental practice TikTok page. Are we just [00:59:45] talking dental.

Speaker3: We’re on 21 K now. I know.

Speaker4: But are we just talking? But it’s got to be the [00:59:50] same thing. Education from the dentist? No, no.

Speaker3: Because for example.

Speaker5: It was it wasn’t. It’s not clear [00:59:55] yet. It’s very clear in Instagram.

Speaker3: No, no it has to be. That’s the thing. That’s why Ellie is so great. And that’s why, like Payman, you and I are [01:00:00] very similar in the fact that we’ve always invested in these types of services. A lot of dentists [01:00:05] don’t want to invest in these services. They’re like, why would I pay someone to do this? They don’t see the [01:00:10] value in it. But like for example, the Chelsea Dental one everyone loves like our receptionist, our [01:00:15] TCO. So she does these videos with them, for example, showing their personality but.

Speaker4: Not teeth, right? [01:00:20]

Speaker3: No teeth as well. We show.

Speaker5: Everything afters.

Speaker3: Yeah, we’ll talk about it.

Speaker5: Do them in a different way.

Speaker1: Yes [01:00:25] we do. We normally do like a green screen that sort.

Speaker5: Of pointing to that.

Speaker1: Thing, like showing that the images behind Stuart’s. [01:00:30]

Speaker3: Work, this is Anna’s cleaning, do you know what I mean? But it will also like there’s one of my favourite [01:00:35] videos, Mary, my receptionist, who everyone loves. She gets all these dental tools and she’s like, Mary, [01:00:40] guess I’ll have to show you later. So she takes out the mirror and Mary’s like mirror. She gets out a probe and she’s [01:00:45] like, oh, she’s like, she’s like something to do with the hygienist, you know what I mean? It’s really funny, [01:00:50] really. People like watching that because it’s really funny.

Speaker1: But I what the reason why I love TikTok [01:00:55] for like dentists and in the dental world is I just think they’re. Is people are obsessed with [01:01:00] teeth, teeth whitening, bonding, veneers like people want to see the results. People [01:01:05] want to know, like what they can do at home. Um, to Hashtag Teeth Talk has got over [01:01:10] 3 billion views. Really? Yeah. It’s crazy. When I first did you know that teeth talk. I always used that that [01:01:15] in my videos. And, you know, when I first started it was on maybe like a few million. It’s now on about 3 billion views. [01:01:20] People searching for that, that hashtag turkey.

Speaker3: Teeth is like turkey.

Speaker1: Teeth. You know, when you do a video [01:01:25] about turkey teeth. Oh my gosh, the virality.

Speaker3: So how dangerous do you think it is for your business [01:01:30] not to have social media? One and number two not get on board with TikTok? [01:01:35]

Speaker1: Yeah, I think it’s essential for businesses now to be on TikTok. Both of them. [01:01:40] Both. Um, I think, you know, it’s TikTok is where everyone is at now. Like that [01:01:45] is the platform where everyone is at. If you’re going to be, you know, doing paid ads, for example, then [01:01:50] do them on TikTok. Facebook is dead for paid advertisements. So if you’re doing ads on Facebook, [01:01:55] it’s like, fine. But I think on TikTok, you know, being able to implement, [01:02:00] um, into the sort of TikTok style. So, you know, whether you’re using the TikTok influencers, as [01:02:05] you mentioned before, you know, using your product in their morning routine.

Speaker3: I literally did a parlour video that got [01:02:10] 8 million views organically. 8 million. I’ll never forget that. And why? Because [01:02:15] that cheek retractors and that was my hook, you know.

Speaker1: See, you’re you’re you’re you’re acclimatising [01:02:20] to the TikTok platform. You’re doing.

Speaker5: Something that a lot.

Speaker4: Of stuff off.

Speaker5: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:02:25] really. I’m a bit of a TikTok shocker.

Speaker5: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah.

Speaker4: It’s frictionless as well. [01:02:30] Like from from deciding to buy it. To buy it. It’s like one button and it arrives here.

Speaker5: You get a buyer’s [01:02:35] remorse.

Speaker4: A lot of it’s crap.

Speaker5: A lot of.

Speaker4: It is crap somehow. Yeah. And that’s the thing, [01:02:40] you know, is there a is there room for saying, hey, this thing isn’t crap, I’m selling it on TikTok, [01:02:45] you know?

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely I yeah.

Speaker3: Well, it’s been really insightful [01:02:50] having you today. Thank you so much for coming on and telling us about your journey. But I know Payman wanted [01:02:55] to ask you, um, earlier, and I think it’s a really good way to end. What are the three top things that [01:03:00] you would tell people listening about TikTok if they want to get started or if [01:03:05] they want to understand it?

Speaker1: So I would say number one is to be consistent. [01:03:10] So I think I mentioned a few of these points before. But consistency is key on TikTok. So showing [01:03:15] up whether you’re showing up once a day, if you really want to show up 3 to 4 times a day, great. It’s not [01:03:20] going to make much difference if you show up once or 3 or 4 times, but showing up and staying consistent, [01:03:25] not dropping off, um, getting over that cringe or getting over that fear [01:03:30] of I’m not going to do well. And that’s that’s the biggest, biggest thing that is holding people back [01:03:35] is I’m too scared. I’m too scared. Just fucking post it. Yeah. And and if it [01:03:40] doesn’t do well. So what you go back to the consistency, you show up and you post it again. Um, [01:03:45] and number three I think is this three tips for doing well on TikTok. I think engagement [01:03:50] is key as well. So, um, engaging with your your following and [01:03:55] the people on on the platform. So if you do a post, don’t just come off the app. Um, you know, go [01:04:00] onto your For You page, scroll through, have a look at what other people are doing. You know, whether it’s other people in your niche [01:04:05] or not. Um, interact with them. Click comments. Um, you know, like [01:04:10] it? Make a comment. You know, then they’re likely to click onto your profile and have a look. Oh, who’s this person that’s just [01:04:15] commented? Even if it’s not a viral video, even if that person’s just posted it and they’ve not got many [01:04:20] views, be the first person to comment on their video. Show them that you’re interested. Oh, this is a really cool video, [01:04:25] I love it. Um, thanks for the tips. You know, something like that. Um, so engaging. If you’ve got [01:04:30] comments, answer all the comments. Don’t just leave your followers hanging if someone’s commented on your video, [01:04:35] this is a great video. Say thank you. So interacting because they’re more.

Speaker5: Likely courtesy. [01:04:40]

Speaker4: That courtesy side of it as as sort of like like.

Speaker5: Instagram I. [01:04:45]

Speaker1: Think so Humanises you. Yeah, I don’t think I mean, some of.

Speaker3: Them are crazy. Like when I did the Jacob Elordi [01:04:50] video, this person commented and said, uh, bit gross. Aren’t you old enough to be his mum [01:04:55] or something like that? I would have to be ten years old if I had him as a child, you know what I mean? Like, that’s the kind of. [01:05:00]

Speaker5: Stuff the hate of. Is the hate.

Speaker3: Different? No, it hates worse on TikTok.

Speaker5: Yeah. You can get a lot of.

Speaker3: Melissa’s wardrobe was [01:05:05] like, it’s horrendous. Yeah.

Speaker5: The hates words.

Speaker1: Can get you can get a lot of hate. But that’s the thing I think [01:05:10] if it’s if it’s hate to a like a very, very bad level, then we can like remove the comments. [01:05:15] However, if it’s just a bit of hate, I think it’s great to have it on there, like interact with them as [01:05:20] well and show them why they’re there. Comment is hateful, you know. Don’t hide that. Hide away those negative [01:05:25] comments because you’re always going to get things like that. I think it’s important to keep that, keep them up. [01:05:30] Um, you know, unless they’re obviously very, very bad, I think it’s important to keep them up and, you know, interact [01:05:35] with them and play a bit with them as well. You know, if they say a stupid comment, make an even more stupid [01:05:40] comment back, and you start getting love from the people that follow you, that do like you, that kind of back you up [01:05:45] and it keeps the engagement going. Just thank them. Thank them for giving me the engagement. Thanks for your comment. [01:05:50] You’ve just helped boost my video to hundreds more people.

Speaker3: Yeah it’s true.

Speaker5: So yeah. Interesting. There [01:05:55] we go.

Speaker3: So thank you so much Ellie.

Speaker1: Thank you.

Speaker3: Think you’re mate. I think you’re amazing. And for dentists [01:06:00] that are scared to take that plunge, as I said, I have a fully paid service with Ellie. I bring her on because [01:06:05] I genuinely think she changed my life and managed my managers to continue to manage [01:06:10] my social media and just really like, brings the fun and energy to the team. So hope you [01:06:15] found that useful. As I said, her agency’s siren agency and you can follow her on TikTok [01:06:20] too as Ellie Bratt, thank you so much. Thank you guys.

Speaker5: Thank you.

Speaker1: Bye. [01:06:25]

Dental Leaders – Chris Tavares.mp3

Speaker1: So if you believe there is a God. Nothing so hides the face of God. Than religion. [00:00:05] Because religion is man made. Because by definition, you cannot really [00:00:10] know your God. And you come to describe your God, what your God is, what your God wants to be. Well, then [00:00:15] you’re contradicting yourself by what you say your God is because technically speaking, it is [00:00:20] beyond your epistemic reach to understand or know God. So that’s what the faith [00:00:25] comes in.

Speaker2: This [00:00:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast [00:00:35] where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:40] hosts Payman Langroudi and [00:00:45] Prav Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Chris Tavares [00:00:50] onto the podcast. I’ve been a long time follower of Chris’s [00:00:55] output. You know, if he ever makes a statement, a one line [00:01:00] answer in a in a post I want to read whatever Chris is saying. I’ve [00:01:05] always enjoyed reading his content. And the other thing is, I’ve noticed that Chris is the kind of guy [00:01:10] that is always chasing excellence. And in the community, [00:01:15] people who sit with him tend to come out of their meetings sort of inspired. [00:01:20] And that’s not kind of by mistake, because Chris has a great [00:01:25] story. He took six years out of dentistry to pursue his philosophical [00:01:30] sort of interests and, uh, became sort of a Jesuit. [00:01:35] We will get into what that means with you. Lovely. Lovely to have you, Chris.

Speaker1: Lovely to [00:01:40] be here, Payman. I think we’ve communicated in the past, but it’s a very, very nice to actually meet you at last. [00:01:45]

Speaker3: I know, I know, we generally start with, you know, background. [00:01:50] Where did you grow up? Where did you where were you born? Where did you grow up? What kind of kid were you? Sure.

Speaker1: Well, [00:01:55] I, I was born in Hong Kong, and I went to the Christian Brothers school when I was in Hong Kong. [00:02:00] Really? I never really studied very much. Um, we were part of the Portuguese boys community [00:02:05] and part of a class of 45. I would probably come in my exams around 39. [00:02:10] And, um, so when I was 15, my dad decided it was probably best to [00:02:15] send me abroad to study. Um, and somewhere in my life, you see, he made [00:02:20] he and my mum made a lot of sacrifices. And at that time, he held that the British private [00:02:25] school system was still the best educational system in the world. My mother was a was a head teacher. My my [00:02:30] father was a senior lecturer. Um, and so they’re very academically orientated. And while all my friends went to [00:02:35] North America, they dropped the bomb on me when, when they said, uh, were you going to England? I said, [00:02:40] what? Where? You know, and, um, okay, so I went to a boarding school in Carlisle or Austin Friars School, [00:02:45] and that was one of the biggest cornerstone changes in my life, because at Austin [00:02:50] Friars, they they taught me how to study and how to discipline myself to make timetables [00:02:55] and study. And I got through my A levels and I sailed through my Dental exams [00:03:00] simply because of the same technique that I use for dentistry. Then from Austin [00:03:05] Friars, um, I went to Newcastle upon Tyne University for five years, dental [00:03:10] school, and then I stayed on. I was lucky enough to get a job as a house officer for one year. [00:03:15]

Speaker1: Um, that made a big difference just staying behind. Then. Then I went on [00:03:20] and had went to general practice for a couple of years in Boston, Lincolnshire. After [00:03:25] about a couple of years, I felt there was something not 100% fulfilling in me. [00:03:30] I didn’t hate dentistry or dislike it. I every day was fine, but I just felt there was something missing. So [00:03:35] I decided to, um, contact the Jesuits. And through a year [00:03:40] of discernment, I became very comfortable that the right thing to do at that moment of time was [00:03:45] to leave dentistry and enter the Jesuit order. Now, the Jesuit order is, uh, is one of [00:03:50] the most misunderstood orders in the world, because if you Google it or Wikipedia, it’ll give [00:03:55] you a 16th century version of it. So I would like to maybe tell somebody more about [00:04:00] it, because what you see on me is Facebook or what everything I am now comes from them, really, because [00:04:05] the Jesuit order was the second turning corner of my life. That made all the difference to me. So we [00:04:10] can explain the Jesuit order either in, in, in the God language, if you like, or [00:04:15] in the laypersons language. And it will become apparent why, why that’s so. So [00:04:20] it was found in the 16th century by Saint Ignatius of Loyola, now [00:04:25] in the 16th century, 17th century, 18th century, 19th century up all the way to [00:04:30] to about. Even nowadays people go to churches to believe is whichever religion [00:04:35] you are. You go to a church to pray, and in that prayer you’re supposed to get closer to your God.

Speaker1: Ignatius [00:04:40] completely turned that upside down in the 16th century. And what he said was that if you [00:04:45] want to find your God, your God is to be found in the concrete reality of your life experience, [00:04:50] not in the building. Don’t pray to a statue, but you need to go out there. And in your experience, as [00:04:55] you reflect on your life experience, you will come to know your God. Now, if you and [00:05:00] the process he calls is discernment. When you reflect every evening on your life experience [00:05:05] through discernment. Discernment is about reflecting with your heart, not your [00:05:10] head. And it works. Um, for for a lot of people. Now, if you remove the [00:05:15] God language in modern day terms, there’s a huge amount of psychology because it’s all about your identity. [00:05:20] Everybody has an identity. Your identity is not to be found in answering a lot of psychological [00:05:25] tests. Or reading psychological books. Your identity is to be found in the concrete [00:05:30] reality of your life experiences. As you reflect on it through discernment, you come to know who you [00:05:35] are, whether you’re in the right place where you should be heading. Then the second thing of the Jesuit spirituality [00:05:40] is very, very important is the word indifference. You should be totally indifferent [00:05:45] to whatever you have external to yourself. If it helps you to be more [00:05:50] of who you are, take it. And if it doesn’t discard it, do not let anything external own [00:05:55] you. Otherwise it will destroy you.

Speaker1: Because if you don’t have it or you strive to get something which is often totally [00:06:00] no help to you and the surface, doesn’t mean you couldn’t care less, but it just means being indifferent to [00:06:05] to various things, your situation or whatever. And you come to know through your identity. So [00:06:10] the Jesuit spirituality really is about helping the individual to find out more of who who you are [00:06:15] and ultimately if they decide. So if you wanted to join the order, you can’t just [00:06:20] join the order. You have to go through a years discernment and through one of their mentors to decide [00:06:25] whether or not you are right for the priesthood, because some people just join the priesthood just to escape from real life [00:06:30] and through discernment and your mentor, this becomes very, very apparent and they will [00:06:35] turn people away. So I was in a Jesuit order for six years. That’s when I did my philosophy and theology [00:06:40] at Heythrop College, University of London. And that was one of the biggest cornerstones in my life. Because [00:06:45] analytic philosophy teaches you how to look at your own life, understand your life, understand [00:06:50] your beliefs. Um, how justified are you? And it’s incredibly relevant to dentistry because [00:06:55] epistemology is how justified are we to believe in evidence based dentistry? [00:07:00] Is it really objective or there are huge subjectivity in it? Then I also [00:07:05] majored in moral philosophy, which of course is ethics. Then the third one I majored [00:07:10] in was was language meaning of words. And that really comes out in listening [00:07:15] to other people communicating with my patients.

Speaker1: And they all say how easy I explain things and how is it [00:07:20] I do understand what they’re trying to say that through comes through analytic philosophy. Really. It’s a very, [00:07:25] very powerful tool for communication, for ethics and for, um, justifying anything [00:07:30] you want. You want to you want to believe in. So after about four years in the Jesuits, [00:07:35] again, I was beginning to through discernment, daily discernment, I began to feel a stirring [00:07:40] in myself. And I just felt that, you know, I’m not in the right place anymore. It’s time to move on. So [00:07:45] I approached my mentor and I said, you know, I’m getting these stirrings. And in most religious [00:07:50] orders, you will find that when the guy wants to leave, people aren’t very happy with [00:07:55] you about that. And it can get quite nasty. Very, very sadly, I’ve spoken to people who’ve had incredibly bad experience [00:08:00] when they wanted to leave, whereas with with the Jesuit Order, it’s all about helping [00:08:05] you to decide where you need to be at a moment of time, whether it is your identity or whether you want [00:08:10] to say God wants you to be there, use a God language. So when I said that, I went through a years discernment [00:08:15] and at the end of the year my mentor just says, I think, Chris, it’s time for you to go. And [00:08:20] so I left with their blessing. After that, um, I saw I needed I [00:08:25] knew, I knew what I wanted to do, I want to do dentistry. That was me.

Speaker3: Can I stop you? Can I stop you? [00:08:30] Can I stop you? Because, um, we can’t go on to dentistry without talking about all [00:08:35] of that that you just you just described. Okay. But, I mean, it’s [00:08:40] interesting because for me, science and religion seem to be in opposition [00:08:45] with each other because one’s evidence based and one’s faith based. Right. [00:08:50] And I’m always interested. I’ve got, you know, family members who are religious scientists, and I’m [00:08:55] interested in asking, you know, what what their position is [00:09:00] with regard to that. But if you had to sort of what comes to mind when I say [00:09:05] that, I mean, what’s your position regarding? I want how they don’t. They don’t really mix [00:09:10] right. They don’t. How do you how do you how do you. Because everything you said is quite secular. [00:09:15] Mhm. So where’s the religion element.

Speaker1: Religion if you want. Well hopefully [00:09:20] I’m not criticising the religious because I’m still religious in a sense. Religion. [00:09:25] Which what a lot of religious people. And I mean, either you’re in a religious order, you’re just a lay person, [00:09:30] have a strong belief is the majority of people don’t actually [00:09:35] understand what a belief religious belief is. And [00:09:40] this is one of the things when you do analytic philosophy, you come to grips with it. So science [00:09:45] expects to be able to carry out a test for experience and come up with some kind of a result. [00:09:50] The problem is, religious experience does not follow that criteria [00:09:55] because by definition, and if you go back to the absolute fundamental definition. Religious [00:10:00] experience. It’s not it’s not open to to [00:10:05] discovery because by definition, you can’t actually say or prove [00:10:10] that God exists because. Because when you say God is all, if any religion says [00:10:15] there, God is all Almighty, all, all this, all that, all that. By definition, it means that you can’t [00:10:20] actually prove it because our human test is beyond it’s beyond the our epistemic [00:10:25] reach, basically. And so that’s the first thing you have to understand is that as a scientist, of course, you [00:10:30] can you can be a very religious person. It’s because science is based on criteria [00:10:35] and experiences of Earth. Religious experience is not the same kind of experience. We’re using the same [00:10:40] word experience, but it has a different meaning. And that meaning is defined within the culture [00:10:45] of religious experience religion, not science. And so they do. Uh, [00:10:50] it’s absolutely possible to, to be side by side. Your mistake is to say the mistake [00:10:55] is for the non-religious person to say, prove to me that God exists. By definition, I can’t [00:11:00] actually prove it. You’re asking a question. Yeah.

Speaker3: No, no, I understand that. Answer that. But but if you had to [00:11:05] sort of. So let me explain to you how my, my brother in law says it to me, and I want to know whether [00:11:10] you think that’s the similar his his point is, you know, that we [00:11:15] are living in this fishbowl and God is the owner of the fishbowl. So we kind [00:11:20] of have have free will within the fishbowl. Yeah. We can do what [00:11:25] we like in there. Yeah, but but God is the owner of the fishbowl. He can, you know, in the end, he can. [00:11:30] He can, you know, I don’t know what that that that’s his explanation. But for me, [00:11:35] the free will side of it and the all knowing side of it, [00:11:40] of are where the real problem is in my thinking. I mean, you know, you can [00:11:45] say, yes, science is badminton and religion is football, and then nothing to do [00:11:50] with each other. And I like doing both badminton and football and it’s beautiful. It’s a lovely thing. [00:11:55] Yeah. But for me that whole question of is there free will, have I got free will? And if [00:12:00] I have then everything isn’t controlled by some mighty power.

Speaker1: Okay. [00:12:05] Your brother in law, the problem with your brother or brother in law is that you are basing [00:12:10] that assumption that God exists in the manner that [00:12:15] he and his religion says God exists. You see one of the things [00:12:20] so.

Speaker3: Humanising it somehow.

Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, I mean, there is a, there’s, there’s, there’s [00:12:25] a the late Jerry Hills, he’s a Jesuit, very, very famous, um, spiritual director [00:12:30] and mentor. He wrote a book called God, the God of Surprises. So if you believe there is a God, [00:12:35] nothing so hides the face of God than religion, because religion is man made. [00:12:40] Because by definition, your God, you cannot really know your [00:12:45] God. And you and you come to describe your God, what your God is, what your God wants to be. Well, then [00:12:50] you’re contradicting yourself by what you say your God is because technically speaking, it [00:12:55] is beyond your epistemic reach to understand or know God. So that’s what the faith [00:13:00] comes in.

Speaker3: What is epistemic?

Speaker1: Oh, sorry. Epistemic epistemology is a study of, [00:13:05] um, experience. So how do we come to know anything? You see. So for so for the, [00:13:10] um, for the British and Pharisees, they believe that all our knowledge comes through our senses, [00:13:15] hearing, touching things. However, um, across the continent, Descartes and all the rationalists [00:13:20] said that our senses are not, are unreliable, and therefore it comes through [00:13:25] reason, you see. So either of those. So number one is so the descartes’s [00:13:30] existence of God is a very good one. Um, for like your brother in law in that because [00:13:35] he, he says that we come to know things through our, our through reason, he [00:13:40] reasoned God into, um, existence. So he’s saying that God is all powerful, God [00:13:45] is all knowing, and God can do everything. Therefore, obviously God must exist. But then [00:13:50] when you talk of existence, you have to define what existence really means. There are two ways things can [00:13:55] exist, okay? And the bogeyman is a good example. The, um, [00:14:00] something can exist within our culture, our language. Okay. And [00:14:05] there’s existence external to that. So for example, the bogeyman, if it [00:14:10] exists because we scare children with that. But it’s just our language, our culture, but [00:14:15] it it exists in real, but it doesn’t really exist in the external world, in the real world. [00:14:20]

Speaker1: So there are two ways God things can exist. And the problem with a lot of religious belief people [00:14:25] is that they don’t realise that their existence of, of their God is actually [00:14:30] is within their language and their culture and their beliefs. Because [00:14:35] you cannot, which is called the anti-realist world, the real world, which is like you and I kind of touch [00:14:40] things and things like that. You cannot say God exists that way. And Descartes mistake was to reason God [00:14:45] into existence just because this plus this equals this God this, then you cannot say it has [00:14:50] to exist as an object, as an object, you can’t do that. So that was that was a mistake they can’t make. And [00:14:55] a lot of religion, a lot of believers do the same thing because they think so. For example, to [00:15:00] say that your God, we are in a fishbowl and there’s some over overseeing person looking into [00:15:05] that fishbowl, controlling things. Where the hell you get that from? You know, I mean, how how [00:15:10] I mean, how can you suddenly say your your God is looking into a fishbowl, you’re trying to save something which [00:15:15] you have absolutely no justification of saying, because by definition, you can’t know exactly what’s going [00:15:20] on. And the problem is scares a lot of believers to say that.

Speaker1: But that’s what faith [00:15:25] is about. If you want to go into the religious, um, world, that’s what faith [00:15:30] is. Don’t ask for proof and don’t certainly provide proof because you’re talking off the top of your [00:15:35] head now. Free will and determination. Do we really have [00:15:40] free will? We can. We can do whatever we want there. Free will is one of those things which philosophers have [00:15:45] kind of debated over the years. So if you look [00:15:50] at, um, Aristotle, you will come to understand a better understanding that we [00:15:55] have and we don’t have free will. Aristotle is my most favourite philosophers, and he has a word [00:16:00] that he uses called eudaimonia. There is no English equivalent of [00:16:05] eudaimonia, but the best equivalent is if you go to a rose competition, [00:16:10] or the roses to me look the same or beautiful, but at least. But to the experts, [00:16:15] one of them looks more beautiful than all the other ones. And that Rose wins. And that’s because [00:16:20] that Rose received all the proper nutrients is supposed to have, [00:16:25] and it responded to that nutrient, and hence that’s eudaimonia. So [00:16:30] Aristotle looks at happiness and our life, and this is where he can bring Ignatius [00:16:35] in and your identity. So eudaimonia means everything in your life.

Speaker1: If you can receive all the [00:16:40] right things to help you to be more the person you are supposed to be, then [00:16:45] you’ll be a very happy person. Okay, so that’s eudaimonia. Now [00:16:50] free will. So given that each of us have an identity, if we are going to believe in Aristotle and [00:16:55] eudaimonia, then you have free will to do whatever you want your will. But if you decide to [00:17:00] go against the grain of your identity. You won’t be a happy person. So [00:17:05] it depends whether you want to be a happy person or you don’t want to be a happy person. You. And there’s no reason why you [00:17:10] why, why? You can say, I don’t want to be a happy person, I just to do whatever I want. And there are some people who unfortunately will will [00:17:15] go against everything. Their gut feeling tells them not to do it, but they’ll still do it, whether it’s a [00:17:20] pressure from peers or whatever. So do we have free will? Yes, we have free. We can do whatever we want. But [00:17:25] if you follow, if you do whatever you want, will you be? Will you be [00:17:30] developing, nurturing your identity, or are you going to be some horrible monster? And if [00:17:35] you want it, will you thrive?

Speaker3: Will you thrive or where you thrive?

Speaker1: You want to thrive or you just want to be a be [00:17:40] a monster? Whatever you want to do. So you have free will. You can either be the person you were, you were born to be and be [00:17:45] very, very happy. Or you can, you can, you can decide to do all the opposite things and end [00:17:50] up not being the person you were born to be. And most of the time, I think people who talk [00:17:55] to people and their dying moments, um, will find that so [00:18:00] many regret not doing certain things, and there’s nothing worse than than just regretting [00:18:05] that, you know, you went against him, you win against your own grain, you know, happens a lot. [00:18:10] So yeah, we have free will, but it’s up to you when you want where you want to end up.

Speaker3: Tell [00:18:15] me, tell me back to, um, when you. How old were you when you actually came over? And [00:18:20] what was it? What was the. I mean, had you ever been to college?

Speaker1: No, no, I [00:18:25] arrived. Um, don’t forget, in those days, there’s no Google. There’s no iPhone, texts, everything. [00:18:30] Yeah.

Speaker3: What did you think when you got out in Carlisle? Which year was that?

Speaker1: Um, 1975. [00:18:35] Um, so so I arrived in Heathrow and I made my way to Victoria [00:18:40] Coach Station. I found my coach, and then I took the coach of [00:18:45] the Carlisle, and I ended up arriving in Carlisle at about 7:00 in the morning. And the [00:18:50] school wasn’t open yet. So I had to kind of hang around at the at the coach station and it was [00:18:55] absolutely bloody freezing. I have never felt so cold in my life. The cold was going through my shoes, into my feet, you [00:19:00] know.

Speaker3: By yourself, right? No. No parents, no parents.

Speaker1: And, uh, and [00:19:05] the first letter from my sister arrived, um, about a week later, and she said that [00:19:10] mum’s driving that crazy because she’s got a world map open, and she wants to know where the plane [00:19:15] is every minute, you know? Um, yeah. So they had to win. So I [00:19:20] wrote a letter back to them, back and forth by letters before. Before, um, there’s any. They [00:19:25] knew how I was. So it was a very different world. I was not I was kind [00:19:30] of excited, obviously a bit apprehensive because I’ve never been abroad on my own before. So I [00:19:35] ended up in this boarding school with a lot of, um, English [00:19:40] people.

Speaker3: Was your was your was your level of, uh, maths and science and [00:19:45] all that a lot higher than the kids in school or or the opposite. Yeah.

Speaker1: I [00:19:50] mean, when I was doing so we did O-level maths, so I was, I was there for the, for form four and [00:19:55] some of the stuff we were doing at form four, we had already done in Hong Kong in Form three. Yeah. You know, [00:20:00] not a huge advance, but a lot of the stuff we had already done in form three. Yeah, because they pushed you quite a lot, [00:20:05] quite a lot out there. But it was a real education for me because when you, when you’re in Hong Kong in 1975, [00:20:10] all the top. Positions is [00:20:15] is held by British people. So I remember one morning [00:20:20] it was a Saturday morning. I opened up the curtain in the dormitory and I just stared there, [00:20:25] you see, and one of the guys came up to you. Are you staring at? I said, there’s a guy there emptying the bins. He sees an English guy. [00:20:30] You know, I just stared at that. You will never see this in Hong [00:20:35] Kong. An English person emptying the bin, you know. And he said, well, you look what you’re staring at. I said, look, there’s [00:20:40] an English guy. They’re emptying the bins. He goes, what do you expect? What [00:20:45] do you expect? You know, the guy’s got to earn a living. You know, it’s it’s things like, this was a [00:20:50] complete education for me, you know, to to not just see it but experience it. Yeah, but [00:20:55] I was a bit apprehensive. I could have gone.

Speaker3: You could have gone either way, right, in a boarding school in Carlisle. But you seem [00:21:00] to like you said to me that there was a defining, life defining sort of experience in [00:21:05] that school. So what was it like the was it was it very strict Catholic school? Was that what it was?

Speaker1: No. No, [00:21:10] not I mean, depending on what you mean by strict Catholic, obviously they have they have to kind of obey the [00:21:15] um, the Roman Catholic Church and their doctrine.

Speaker3: It was a Catholic school.

Speaker1: But but they went thrashing [00:21:20] you and, you know, you tell a lie. They beat the hell out of you and bang your head against the wall. I think that no, they were they they [00:21:25] were very, very open minded. They were there to be, to to educate. But what, what the two [00:21:30] things that made a difference was, first of all, remember when I was in Hong Kong, I never studied, I was one of the bad guys, bad [00:21:35] boys, you know? And yet the first thing they taught me was how to study, um, [00:21:40] how to discipline myself to study. And that was that. That was the thing that [00:21:45] helped me to pass my Dental exam. I flew through my Dental exam. But the second thing, which really [00:21:50] helped, uh, which gave me confidence in myself, was being away from all my naughty friends [00:21:55] and, um, you know, no bad influence and distractions. [00:22:00] I was just there. I was in a boarding school. I thrived just learning myself, [00:22:05] my identity, come out. And, uh, so the other changing moment for me was I was made head boy [00:22:10] school captain. Well, I would not have believed that. You know, um, if you look at my who [00:22:15] I was in Hong Kong, and that gave me a huge amount of confidence, you know, and in fact, my, my housemaster [00:22:20] at that time was David O’Neill. And last year I met him for the first time [00:22:25] in Manchester, and I’ve not seen him since 1979. [00:22:30] Well, I finally found him. Um, and I went over to Manchester [00:22:35] to see him, and that was a really great moment for me.

Speaker3: So that one. So [00:22:40] Dental school y dentistry.

Speaker1: Um, I, [00:22:45] I was always programmed to be a doctor, but I like working with my hands, [00:22:50] you know, and and, um. And I’m just thinking that, you know. And somebody [00:22:55] I can’t remember who it was said, you need to be honest, as if there aren’t a lot of money and you know, all that kind of stuff. And I thought, [00:23:00] yeah, I’m a very people person and I don’t, I can’t, I can’t talk to the patient. They’re [00:23:05] anaesthetised. You know, I’m very much a people person really. So I thought I said and somebody said, well, you [00:23:10] can earn a decent living in dentistry. So yeah, I’ll go into dentistry. But then, as I said, I went to dentistry. [00:23:15] I flew through my dental exams through the teeth.

Speaker3: But what about. What about dental school? Were [00:23:20] you. Were you what, studying hard or.

Speaker1: I studied hard, but I wasn’t a I wasn’t a top student. I [00:23:25] wasn’t in the top kind of 20% or 10%. Not at all. I had to work very hard to get where I am, [00:23:30] whereas, you know. So, for example, because of the way I was taught to to study at Austin Friars [00:23:35] and discipline and make timetables, by the time the final exams came that year, I [00:23:40] had already gone over the whole syllabus three times. Oh, wow. Whereas whereas, you know, you get some some of some [00:23:45] of my, my, my friends who they study the week before and they’ll pass, you [00:23:50] know, I have to repeat things quite a lot to, to. So I had to work very, very hard, you [00:23:55] know. And Dental school was great. I made a lot of good friends there. But the main thing was that Austin [00:24:00] Friars taught me how to study, and I still I still remember the day before each exam. [00:24:05] We were always taught, don’t study, because if you’ve done your work, it will come out. So [00:24:10] I was actually looking for somebody to go for a drink the night before, and everybody was studying. You [00:24:15] know, everybody was studying.

Speaker3: So unfortunately I was in the cramming in all night [00:24:20] group. Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. And you and you and but it works [00:24:25] for you, you know.

Speaker3: So then. Okay. What was your [00:24:30] first job?

Speaker1: I worked as an associate. Uh, my first job was as a house officer in [00:24:35] the dental school. So there were six jobs going and about, uh, probably about 30 people applied for [00:24:40] it. So I was very lucky to get it, actually. And, uh, I did prosthodontics, [00:24:45] oral surgery and child dental health so that that had quite a lot gave me a lot of [00:24:50] confidence. Um, I spent a year there. Um, and then I decided there was [00:24:55] to continue to stay in hospital. It would involve a lot of studying to get [00:25:00] my fellowship and everything else. And I just felt, you know, there would be a bit more to life than that, than [00:25:05] just my head in the book. So I decided to leave dental school, and I know 1 or 2 lecturers [00:25:10] that were a bit disappointed I wasn’t staying behind, but so from there I went to general practice. I went to Boston in Lincolnshire, [00:25:15] small town in Lincolnshire. I was an associate.

Speaker3: What was your what was your initial feeling about general [00:25:20] practice? Because I remember my first day of looking [00:25:25] around and thinking, shit, man, it’s like, is this, is this what it is? Is this, is [00:25:30] this what I’ve become? And then the first year, the whole the first couple [00:25:35] of years, very lonely existence, very difficult time, I think, you know, because you lose your, [00:25:40] your, your friend group sort of thing and suddenly you’re this adult. So was it in that period [00:25:45] where you decided you wanted to duck out or.

Speaker4: No, no, no.

Speaker1: I don’t forget I’m talking about night. So, [00:25:50] um, so I’m talking about 1986. I went to general practice. So in those times it [00:25:55] was high time. You work hard, you earn a lot. It was great. Um, so I enjoyed the dentistry, but [00:26:00] but obviously for me, moving into, um, Boston, where I didn’t know anybody [00:26:05] at all seemed a bit crazy. But at the same time, you know, coming from Hong Kong, where I didn’t know anybody [00:26:10] at all. So it was through my life experience, I came to understand that I’m actually quite comfortable [00:26:15] with myself, you know? And there will be there will be times on my field alone. [00:26:20] But I was never lonely in this. As such, because I’m comfortable with myself. I can read [00:26:25] books and do whatever I want, you know, but obviously. But at the same time, I thrive. I love meeting people. I love going [00:26:30] out for meals with people. So I’m not really an introvert in that sense, you know?

Speaker3: I know, but I want [00:26:35] to get I want to get to the moment where you were, you made the decision to stop being a dentist and [00:26:40] go after these philosophical studies and so forth. And you [00:26:45] said you said you were looking for meaning or something. Was that was that the word you used? Sort of. You [00:26:50] felt like there was something more.

Speaker1: Yeah. So, so the process of discernment have actually started. [00:26:55] Remember, discernment is about critiquing your life with your heart, not your head. So I couldn’t put my foot [00:27:00] down or say exactly what, but I just found that, you know, after two years, you know, I had a [00:27:05] nice car, I was on a sports car, you know, I was making money, but I felt something was missing in [00:27:10] my life. You know, something about me. There’s an emptiness somewhere, you know? And, [00:27:15] um, and because obviously with my Catholic background that, you know, and I heard about [00:27:20] the, um, the Jesuits where they run retreats. Now, retreats are silent [00:27:25] retreats. So you go there for a week, you don’t talk to anybody, and one hour a day you come and talk to your your [00:27:30] mentor, your spiritual director, you see, and it allows all the subconscious to come out, you know, [00:27:35] and it was through that retreat that’s become.

Speaker3: Very fashionable these days. You know, Citibank [00:27:40] is going for these silent retreats.

Speaker4: You’d be surprised.

Speaker1: What comes out of you. But most of the time everything [00:27:45] is buried, you know, and I decided I want to I would like to join [00:27:50] the Jesuits, you see. But if you.

Speaker3: Don’t, then what happens? But what? Okay. For the first [00:27:55] two hours, you’re whatever. And then what happens when silent for all that time? [00:28:00] Nothing.

Speaker1: So you are you’re allowed to read, or they might give you a passage from a book or something [00:28:05] to read. Or you could paint, you know, and this is where there’s a lot of psychology you see in [00:28:10] Ignatius stuff, you see. So what will happen is I met my, my director at 7:00 in the evening [00:28:15] and he goes, well, tell me about your day. And because you’re completely on [00:28:20] your own, even meal times, by the way, is completely silent. You go into a big refectory, there’s nobody talks here. And [00:28:25] they’ll say, what do you do? I did this, and what did you find interesting? Or you just talk about your day basically. [00:28:30] And that’s and after about 1 or 2 sessions, you suddenly realise things are coming up and you [00:28:35] start. It just happens to everybody. And through my, my 60s as Jesuits, I became a director [00:28:40] myself.

Speaker3: Yeah, but what do you mean? Things are coming out. Things about your life. About what? About. Yeah.

Speaker1: So? [00:28:45] So. Well, let’s think, um, nothing. What have you been [00:28:50] thinking? And when in through discernment, when you have made the right choice. Are you aware [00:28:55] of something? And this is 100%. You experience an immense peace in yourself. [00:29:00] And you know, the choice is right, you know. And and so sometimes they’ll start talking [00:29:05] about things and um, and obviously my, my purpose of that was do I, should I be joining the [00:29:10] Jesuits. That was the main question. You’re going to the retreat with, you know, and so what’s happened during [00:29:15] the day? I said, well, I walked around the town, I read, I read about this and any thoughts, anything come up. And [00:29:20] I can’t remember this, by the way, so far back. But he’ll talk about that and eventually, going from what you have said, [00:29:25] they take it further. You might read another thing and then eventually he says, what do you think? And I [00:29:30] think, yeah, I think, you know, the right thing is, is to. I’m ready [00:29:35] to join the Jesuits, however. You might be ready to join the Jesuit, the Jesuit not ready to to [00:29:40] to accept you that. So after that retreat, you didn’t have to go through a whole year of discernment with another director, [00:29:45] where every month you see them because you’re about to make a big change in your life. If you use the [00:29:50] God language the Jesuits wants to know, is this where God wants you? If you want to use [00:29:55] the laypersons language, you want to know whether your identity lies in joining them. At this [00:30:00] moment of time. Nothing is for nothing is definite or forever. And after one year my director [00:30:05] says, yeah, you know, how do you feel about the decision? I said, I feel incredibly at ease with it now, very peaceful [00:30:10] and everything. So. So I joined. You know, it doesn’t mean I’m supposed to stay there forever, because discernment [00:30:15] goes on for the rest of your life. And hopefully by through discernment, you [00:30:20] will start making changes in direction, guided by your life experience and your reflection [00:30:25] of your guide experience. As you become more of who you are supposed to be.

Speaker4: Well.

Speaker3: And [00:30:30] then the links to ethics and dentistry [00:30:35] and what is ethics? Yeah, expand on that.

Speaker1: Okay. So [00:30:40] the epistemology is the study of belief. And and what’s the difference [00:30:45] between knowing something and believing something to be real. You see analytic [00:30:50] philosophy really looks into those two aspects. So for [00:30:55] example, if a patient says to me, if you do my root canal, you’re going to charge me £600. [00:31:00] So that’s going to get rid of my get rid of my pain, isn’t it? Now many people just say yes [00:31:05] because they have every confidence in endodontic techniques and science. I would say [00:31:10] no, I don’t know. It’s going to do. I believe it will. I got strong reason for believing that it will. So the language [00:31:15] you use is very, very important. And that keeps me out of trouble in the dental surgery because I’m very quick [00:31:20] at understanding. So. So one of the things I learned is that, you know, analytic philosophy, [00:31:25] with our seminars and everything, we must learn to listen [00:31:30] for the purpose of understanding, not just the reply, the problem. Many mistakes [00:31:35] young dentists use is that they reply. And I’m trying, listening to the patient. And what the patient [00:31:40] is basically saying is that are you giving me a 100% cast iron guarantee? No. And I come [00:31:45] straight out. I can’t guarantee that, you know, and I sometimes will say to that if I do this procedure and [00:31:50] I’m going to charge you £6,000, I would like to say to you that in ten years time, all those all that [00:31:55] teeth will still be there. I can’t, because it’s a very dynamic process going, going in your mouth.

Speaker1: And unless you [00:32:00] you do your part, it’s not going to last ten years. So you analyse that set of [00:32:05] beliefs and knowledge. Now ethics is very, very important because ethics is a word that is [00:32:10] thrown around and I include I totally include our our people in authority, [00:32:15] regulators, NHS England, whatever. It’s a word that’s thrown around like a punch line, you [00:32:20] know, and people have a very linear way of looking at ethics. One plus one equals [00:32:25] two. If you do this and you do that, you are wrong. Ethics is a three dimensional thing. [00:32:30] You have to look at this breadth and its depth. And one of the most important, the [00:32:35] ethics I buy into is that, you know, ethics is all about carrying out the [00:32:40] morally right action leading to a morally good [00:32:45] state of affairs. That’s very, very important because it’s not this [00:32:50] is a Tum that I coined. It’s called what it’s called sniper ethics. And a good example of [00:32:55] sniper ethics is what prevents people leaving the NHS going private. [00:33:00] I gave a talk on this once which was quite well received. So sniper ethics basically is [00:33:05] a sniper was once, um, interviewed. Do you find it easy to kill somebody? [00:33:10] And his reply was absolutely fascinating. He said, if you look through a sniper [00:33:15] scope, all you see is that little area that you’re going to shoot. The sniper scope [00:33:20] removes everything around that person. So there could be children running around, [00:33:25] there could be family around.

Speaker1: You don’t see or hear any of that. All you see is a little bit of a head, and therefore [00:33:30] it removes everything. And you just shoot because it’s just an object. Now, sniper ethics is exactly the same [00:33:35] thing. This is where you decide, let’s say, for example, it’s unethical [00:33:40] to go private because what about these 282 has been with us all our lives? [00:33:45] Um, it would be wrong to to leave them. But what about then? You have an ethical [00:33:50] responsibility to yourself, to your staff, to to your children. [00:33:55] And, you know, and not just for those two people. So. So why would you not leave the NHS [00:34:00] at the moment you are going through mental stress, which you can’t provide. I mean, I know people ten years [00:34:05] qualified, they still don’t own their own house. In 1984 [00:34:10] I worked for two years and I bought a house. Now it’s ridiculous that, you know. And secondly is [00:34:15] that, um, if you look at ethics, one of the most important things is the Hippocratic Oath. The Hippocratic [00:34:20] Oath itself does not actually say first, do no harm. The original Hippocratic [00:34:25] Oath is miles long. Over the years and centuries, it’s been shortened, and eventually somebody [00:34:30] just disappears to no harm. Therefore, ethically, no clinician should [00:34:35] be working under a system that does not satisfy the Hippocratic Oath. First, do [00:34:40] no harm when you work under a system that’s causing harm to the clinicians themselves, [00:34:45] to their families, how can that be ethical? So you have absolutely no, you [00:34:50] know, you have a bigger responsibility towards your loved ones.

Speaker1: So therefore you should not have to work under a system [00:34:55] that itself expects you to to live under the Hippocratic Oath. But the system [00:35:00] itself does not obey the Hippocratic Oath. That’s just ridiculous. So I can give a very good, [00:35:05] sound ethical argument why it is totally ethical for you to leave the NHS [00:35:10] and and go private, and ultimately is because ethical decisions [00:35:15] is a matter of prioritising your values. Always put your family and yourself [00:35:20] first, you know, and your staff next. Never put a patient above yourself or your [00:35:25] family. Never put a system above yourself or your family. And hence [00:35:30] ethics is all about looking at the carrying out the right, morally right action [00:35:35] leading to a morally good state of affairs. It’s a state of affairs, you know, [00:35:40] that’s very, very important, not just one isolated thing. We don’t make our rules as we play the game otherwise, [00:35:45] you know, so that’s ethical. And so somebody says to me, is it ethical [00:35:50] to um. So when I when I make a decision to do something for a patient, I ask my myself [00:35:55] three questions and all three have to be yes before I would do it for a patient. First of all, is [00:36:00] it ethical? Second question is it legal? Third [00:36:05] question is it advisable? Has to be a yes in all three. The first is no. [00:36:10] Then that’s it. I wouldn’t do it. You know, even though even if it is legal [00:36:15] and is advisable, I wouldn’t do it.

Speaker1: If it’s totally unethical, I wouldn’t do it. And you’d be surprised [00:36:20] how ethics is defined. Because ethics is about the human being. So [00:36:25] if you imagine the the, um, the caveman period. Yeah. Where the caveman [00:36:30] club was a wham bam and Wallace what the ethics were the law, basically. Yeah. Sometime from the caveman [00:36:35] period to civilisation, social contract theories were drawn up so that [00:36:40] people behave well towards each other. And therefore. And that’s ethics. And therefore the ultimate [00:36:45] subject of ethics is a human being. That’s very, very important. It’s [00:36:50] about the human being, nothing else after that. So therefore some dentists like to focus on the tooth. [00:36:55] I focus on the human being. So ethics is [00:37:00] carrying out procedures in the best interest of the human being, not the best interest of the tooth. Do [00:37:05] you see the difference? You know, because there will be a lot of I mean, there will be some very hardline fundamentalist [00:37:10] dentists who will say it’s wrong to let’s say, let’s say you are the tooth. I mean, this [00:37:15] was a real patient, by the way. This was when about 20 years ago, she [00:37:20] had a very mobile tooth bordering onto M3, but it was M2. It was quite mobile and [00:37:25] she was in her 70s or 80s. And she came in and she said, it [00:37:30] looks horrible, Chris, you know, and, um, I like it crowned. And [00:37:35] I’m looking at this very mobile tooth. Now, if I hadn’t done philosophy, I would have said, no, you’re going [00:37:40] to lose that tooth in three months, you know, and I can’t charge you, you know, £300 for [00:37:45] it at that time, you know.

Speaker1: However, I’m not looking at the tooth. I’m looking at the person [00:37:50] behind the tooth. And to her she’s, she says, I know I might not [00:37:55] live for another month of the year, but I really would like to go out with a, with a nice [00:38:00] tooth. And I say, what if it even lasts a month? I’ll be very happy with that, Chris, because nobody would do it for me [00:38:05] and for me. I crowned it for her. She died, I think, within [00:38:10] the year, I think, um, but the main thing was that one of her relatives said, um, [00:38:15] thank you for doing the tooth. Now that’s ethics, because the [00:38:20] subject, the ultimate of ethics, is a human being, not an inanimate object like a [00:38:25] tooth, you know? And a lot of times, you know, I’ve done things which, technically speaking, [00:38:30] would probably be not good from a dental perspective. But when you have consent, [00:38:35] this comes down to consent. Really. Ethics and consent. Yeah. You know, that’s that’s what that’s where it’s heading towards basically [00:38:40] in that are you consenting for a tooth. Are you consenting for the human being? Because very, [00:38:45] very often we make our treatment plans, many people seeking consent from the tooth because [00:38:50] science would give would back up the consent from the tooth. No, the consent comes from the human [00:38:55] being. Then, you know.

Speaker4: It’s you’re.

Speaker3: Absolutely right. I mean, I think we [00:39:00] had a discussion like this at one of the one of the live events recently [00:39:05] regarding, you know, what, if a 18 year old asks you for [00:39:10] porcelain veneers, would you do it? You know, this sort of question. Yeah. And they brought [00:39:15] up that famous, um, daughter test thing. But when you consent [00:39:20] is the right word. Yeah. Because consent is valid and informed and that by [00:39:25] definition, if you have that, it’s not your [00:39:30] decision, it’s your daughter’s decision. You know that that’s the important thing.

Speaker1: Uh, [00:39:35] actually, the daughter theory is actually very unethical because what [00:39:40] you’re in effect doing is don’t forget the object of, of of ethics and [00:39:45] is about as a clinician is that and in fact, obviously, [00:39:50] um, oh, what’s the name? Um, the ruling in Scotland that, [00:39:55] that, that, that, that kind of says you should use the person to take the risk. Not not the not the clinician. Lanarkshire [00:40:00] versus Montgomery versus Lanarkshire ruling. Yeah. So the daughter test is basically my [00:40:05] daughter is let’s say 18 or 19. So in effect what you are saying is you are you [00:40:10] are deciding for her what you will do. Okay. Yeah. And that comes [00:40:15] down to number one in a court of law, you will not have informed consent. You [00:40:20] know. So when they say treat your patients like I would, you know, say [00:40:25] I would treat my patients like I would treat my own family. And my daughters are 14 years old. And [00:40:30] I said to them that, you know what I said to them when they were 13? I said, you’re now teenagers. [00:40:35] What? What does that mean? And one of them said, um, well, you’re probably going to argue a lot.

Speaker1: And [00:40:40] I said, no. Basically, you are now turning a corner in your life where you are going to discover [00:40:45] your identity and you want to express that. And I will do my utmost best to [00:40:50] respect your opinion and whatever you want to do, I’ll give you my input, but your ultimate decision is yours, [00:40:55] and I will treat all my patients the same way. It’s informed consent. At the end of the day, you know ethics [00:41:00] is at the end of the day. How can it be ethical if you decide what you will do for another person? Forget it’s [00:41:05] your daughter, for another person, you know everybody’s the same. Just because they’re your daughter doesn’t mean [00:41:10] they should be treated differently from from everybody else, you know? Um, and for me, I don’t actually buy [00:41:15] into the daughter test. I went into informed consent. Obviously, you have to then decide at 18 [00:41:20] years old, are they capable of fully understanding Long Terme [00:41:25] what the consequences are now, this is the difference in.

Speaker3: Societies drawn that line. Society [00:41:30] has drawn that adulthood line here. Yeah. As it’s not up to you to I [00:41:35] mean unless you want to diagnose them as they’ve got a mental illness.

Speaker4: Well no, but but.

Speaker3: Which, which [00:41:40] is, which is which is real. Right. There are some people who do have a mental illness who want all their teeth pulled out or, [00:41:45] you know, that exists.

Speaker4: Yeah, but but the thing.

Speaker1: Is, if you listen, I mean, and this is where the Jesuit spirituality [00:41:50] helps because you spend a lot of time listening to people. And then in, in, um, analytic philosophy, [00:41:55] in your seminars, you spend a lot of time listening to people. And trust me that when you start listening long [00:42:00] enough, you’ll pick up something’s not right. Your gut feeling it is there. So [00:42:05] the law has said is okay. But remember my three criteria. The first thing is it ethical in this.

Speaker3: Advisable [00:42:10] one is the one that’s probably well, is.

Speaker4: It ethical?

Speaker1: I would probably say no because I’m not fully convinced [00:42:15] that she has really understood. Is it legal? Yes, because [00:42:20] I’ve got consent and it says she hasn’t understood.

Speaker3: It’s your fault, though. Yeah.

Speaker1: No, [00:42:25] um, there are some people who. No. Because they’re not really listening. They have really decided what they [00:42:30] want the answer to be. And you can always tell how how they answer you. So there’s [00:42:35] a difference between, um, I would like to like to have six veneers, a nice smile. Yeah. But the problem [00:42:40] is it’s going to destroy your teeth. And you might have a very nice smile, but every ten years they need replacing at a huge [00:42:45] cost. Yeah, yeah, that’s no problem. How quickly that answer comes out, it means they’re not listening. [00:42:50] Whereas those who really listen, they’ll be looking you in the eye, look them in the eye, people you know, [00:42:55] and you will see that the eye tells you more than the mouth. And you [00:43:00] can see there’s a there’s a blank look and yeah, there’s yeah that’s fine. They haven’t really listened. [00:43:05] So for me it would not be ethical. It’s legal. It’s inadvisable. No. And this actually [00:43:10] happened to me once. Um, about ten years ago this lady came in, um, 106 [00:43:15] veneers, um, adult in her mid 20s. And I looked at her teeth and, [00:43:20] you know, they actually quite nice teeth. Um, they’re not really how she described them. So [00:43:25] I said very things to her and she said, oh yeah, yeah, I know, that’s fine. No problem. I said, I’ll tell you what, let’s come back in six months [00:43:30] and just see if you still feel the same.

Speaker1: So through my Jesuit training, [00:43:35] this is discernment not doing straight away. So they came in again and [00:43:40] I said, bring your boyfriend with you, please. Boyfriend sits in the corner. I says, I said, Jeff, don’t you think she’s got [00:43:45] a nice smile? She goes, there’s definitely nothing wrong with the teeth, Chris. I think she’s got a really nice smile. [00:43:50] Okay, so I said, I think you have a really nice smile. So after a few more questions [00:43:55] with a little bit, nothing really revealing. Then I says, come back in six months time. I might decide [00:44:00] whether or not to do it for you now. She disappeared. You know, at that time, [00:44:05] you know, this was about 20 years ago, I think she disappeared. And, um, and [00:44:10] all of a sudden I got this letter from from the hospital saying that, you know, so and so has been [00:44:15] referred to us for Saturday, and there was a list of medication, and she was. And she never [00:44:20] told me any of that. Um, she was an antipsychotic. Drugs. Wow. Yeah. So I picked [00:44:25] it up. It’s sort of discernment, you know, that something, you know, I can’t say what it is, but. [00:44:30] And, uh, and then. And then she turned up again, you know, she turned up again, [00:44:35] and sadly, somebody did it for her. Um, but she [00:44:40] really wanted me to come back.

Speaker1: Could you look after her and everything, please? You know, because, you know, and I [00:44:45] get that a lot, you know? You know, people have the utmost trust that I’m very, very honest. [00:44:50] And I do an incredibly high quality of work. But sometimes our emotions take [00:44:55] over their head and they know I have said whatever, but then they just want it regardless [00:45:00] of consequences, and they will pay for it to have it done. And they’ll come back to me and say, look, you look after them, please, because I know [00:45:05] you do better job than the other guy in looking after them, because you’re always honest with me, Chris, you know, and [00:45:10] I get that quite a lot, you know? And unless it’s a complete train wreck, um, there’s [00:45:15] one case where I saw was a train wreck, but in less than that, I’m quite happy to continue to look after it for them, you know. But [00:45:20] I’m very careful what I write down, what I, what I, how I talk to them. Things like that all comes through analytic philosophy. [00:45:25] And they’re very clear, uh, about where they stand or where I stand, you know, but then as I said, you [00:45:30] know, um, consent is the main thing. And what really helped me a lot was that, um, I there [00:45:35] was a gentleman, um, I restored an implant for that I [00:45:40] knew was going to fail on a lawyer.

Speaker3: Well, yeah. So this is [00:45:45] let’s get to the dark part of the of the of the part. Go on. [00:45:50] What a story.

Speaker1: And basically I was asked if I would restore an implant, um, for, [00:45:55] for, for someone. Um, so I said if I’m going to do that, I want to. [00:46:00] I’m 100%. That implant is a restorative driven procedure. [00:46:05] The restorative dentistry. So have a look at it first. So I ask to see the patient. I examined the [00:46:10] patient. And um and I said he needs a bone graft [00:46:15] and a connective tissue graft before the implant goes in, because the bones are in the right place [00:46:20] and the gingival is so thin, um, you’re gonna have problems. So I [00:46:25] wrote that back. And three months later, he turned up with the implant to [00:46:30] be restored with no bone graft, no connective tissue graft, and you could see the [00:46:35] grey of the implant. So I looked at it, and it’s a very deep, deep [00:46:40] overbite. Class two diff two. And, um, and I just [00:46:45] thought there’s no room for the crown. It’s going to be banging on the bloody crown, you see. So I said I can’t restore this. By the way, you [00:46:50] need to go back to your your surgeon, you see. And I said that the implant, the crown crown [00:46:55] will break or something’s going to break. Your bite’s too deep. So we [00:47:00] she went back to see the surgeon and she came back and she says, um, you know, Chris, [00:47:05] um, I’ve spoken to so and so he says it should be all right, that things can be done. Um, so I’m quite happy to go ahead and restore [00:47:10] it. So I says, can I just say if we restore that, it will fail. You [00:47:15] know it won’t last. You know I wouldn’t do that. So. Two and fro four times. [00:47:20] And eventually she came. He came back and he says, um, I know you’re unhappy with that, but I’ve [00:47:25] spoken to so and so now, and, um. And I’m making an informed decision now, Chris, you can [00:47:30] go ahead and restore it. You see patients.

Speaker3: In this or the.

Speaker4: Other, not the.

Speaker1: Patient. I’m [00:47:35] making an informed decision. I’ve heard you. I’ve heard you both four times now. I’m happy that you go ahead and restore you see. [00:47:40] So I restored it. And so in the consent form, basically, [00:47:45] it was fairly clear in my clinical notes that you are in fact consenting to failure. So [00:47:50] that’s totally non-ambiguous here. So initially the [00:47:55] the bone broke with the implant and the crown was moving. Wasn’t my bloody crown. It was a bone that broke. [00:48:00] And somehow, somehow the bone hardened again. It stopped. But then the gingiva was [00:48:05] so thin, there was a little flap of tissue and food was trapping into it. And eventually [00:48:10] he came and he said, surely I shouldn’t be like this. He said, I says, yeah, the gums are a bit too thin. And [00:48:15] the implant surgeon said, he’s got gingivitis. No, oral hygiene is perfect. He’s not gingivitis. [00:48:20] He’s got a very thin biotype. And eventually, with an inflammatory response, the [00:48:25] gums receded and you can see the implant. So he came back and he just said, look, I [00:48:30] shouldn’t be left with this, should I? I says, no, so he says, um, I said, you really [00:48:35] should have had a bone graft to push it forward and a connective tissue graft to thicken the gums. You see, he goes, well, [00:48:40] shouldn’t have been done before, before he was placed. Then I says, so by this time, you know, I’m always [00:48:45] honest with them. I don’t want to throw anybody under the bus.

Speaker1: But after telling you four times, six times you talk to the guy on the phone not [00:48:50] to do it. He said, you know, he did it. So I just said, well, yeah, I’ve done beforehand you wouldn’t be here [00:48:55] now. Then why was it done beforehand? I can’t answer that because I did ask for it to be done. You see, um, [00:49:00] I have no other choice now because I spoke to my indemnity. He says, you know, it’s not about throwing anybody in there. That’s. You need you need to not defend [00:49:05] yourself because you did everything right. So at the end of the day, he contacted his I mean, he’s [00:49:10] a lawyer. So he contacted his lawyers. And basically I got a letter saying that, you know, if you [00:49:15] just give me back my money for the crown, then I’ll just leave it. And I just thought to myself, no, you [00:49:20] know, I warned you four times. And so I brought a very nice letter back to say that I can’t really give [00:49:25] you back the money because you consented to failure. We went through this four times, and your exact words. You [00:49:30] are making an informed consent now. Sure enough, the the solicitor’s letter arrived, [00:49:35] um, asking for clinical notes, you know, and that was my touchpoint. My one and only one, hopefully. [00:49:40] And, um, when their expert witnesses read my notes, the case against me was just dropped. I never heard from them again. [00:49:45]

Speaker4: You know, and so.

Speaker1: Through my philosophy days, [00:49:50] really, um, that I knew I expressed things very clearly. I knew I was science based, [00:49:55] I knew I was confident that, you know, I, I’m on solid ground here because ultimately [00:50:00] the terminology is you’ll be consenting to failure. I’m making an informed consent. So [00:50:05] it doesn’t get clearer than that.

Speaker4: You know, would you.

Speaker3: Say that that’s the most challenging day you [00:50:10] can remember in your career? You know, from a work perspective. [00:50:15]

Speaker1: For most challenging day? No, I mean, I was I was quite all right with that because [00:50:20] in fact, my identity at that time actually.

Speaker4: Doesn’t seem.

Speaker3: Too bad. It’s an interesting story, but it doesn’t seem [00:50:25] too bad from your perspective.

Speaker4: No.

Speaker1: The most challenging day for me was I was I was doing a connective [00:50:30] tissue graft for this gentleman. I knew he likes drinking, you know, and I sent him to specifically, [00:50:35] you know, you’re coming at 2:00. Do not have any alcohol at lunchtime. [00:50:40] Please do not have any alcohol. And it’s all written down. Everything else he goes, yeah, don’t worry Chris, I [00:50:45] won’t, you see. Uh, so he comes in and he looks all right. But then I bent down [00:50:50] and I thought, no, no. Is that. No? And I said to the nurse, can you smell alcohol? She says [00:50:55] no. Okay, so so so so I started doing it. I started making the incision in the palate [00:51:00] to take it from the palate. And he started I mean, it started bleeding like mad, you know, I started pushing [00:51:05] the pressure. He started a lot of bleeding, you see. And eventually I had to kind of stitch it up and everything. And I just said, [00:51:10] you drank at lunchtime. He goes, yeah, I need one pint. I told you not to drink any. He put it more [00:51:15] than two pints. Really? So the blood pressure was up. I had to I had to abandon the whole bloody thing because he wouldn’t stop bleeding, you know? [00:51:20] So that was like panic, panic, panic, panic. Oh, my God, was all this blood coming from. You know, that was my worst day, really, I think [00:51:25] I think, yeah.

Speaker3: So when you decided to go back to dentistry. You [00:51:30] decide to go back and really, really, like [00:51:35] learn everything and be, you know, do the very best that you can and I can relate to it. Actually, [00:51:40] I stopped dentistry for five years when we started enlighten, and then when I went [00:51:45] back, I went back my I took over my wife’s patience when she was on maternity. I [00:51:50] had that feeling as well. You know, that I’m only going to do what I’m very, very [00:51:55] good at. But for me, for me, it went a funny direction. I basically [00:52:00] started, referred a lot, referred everything out apart from the bleaching and bonding. Whereas [00:52:05] for you, for you, you actually, [00:52:10] um, started to learn and, and you know, went on loads and loads of courses. [00:52:15] Yeah.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: So so, so, so I can understand I mean normally I would, I’d be [00:52:20] asking, you know, what is it about you that makes you that guy? But I think your previous, your previous [00:52:25] story kind of tells us that. But tell me about, you know, the highlights of [00:52:30] that journey and the lowlights of that journey. And what did you decide to do first? And you know which [00:52:35] direction you went in and which directions you didn’t go in.

Speaker4: And yeah, I.

Speaker1: Came back into dentistry and I knew I wanted to [00:52:40] be a dentist, but I also wanted to improve, change people’s lives. And one of those would be smile [00:52:45] design. At the end of the day, you see, uh, whether it’s by dentures or by, um, restorative [00:52:50] dentistry. So I started doing a lot of courses, so I went in. So we are talking where are we [00:52:55] talking about now? We’re probably talking about 1984, 1990, probably around 1995, [00:53:00] I think possibly. I went to Las Vegas and did [00:53:05] a course on Anterior Composites. I can’t remember the name of the lecturer now. Then I knew I [00:53:10] wanted to do gum surgery, plastic seeing things, and I went to Toronto where the I don’t know whether they exist [00:53:15] or not. The Washington Institute of Periodontology was running a course on pigs heads in Toronto, [00:53:20] so I flew over there to to learn connective tissue grafts and crown lengthening and everything. Then, [00:53:25] um, there I found out that that that the, the god of periodontal [00:53:30] surgery was William Beckett. So in those days there were no DVDs. So I bought the DVD. I bought [00:53:35] the, the the videotape of him and and I really learned a lot from that. [00:53:40] Then I started doing, uh, then of course, this occlusion to be learned. So I, [00:53:45] I’m one of the students who built the late Bill Tomkovicz and British Society of Occlusal Studies, the whole [00:53:50] year’s course on occlusion, all that kind of stuff I learned from them. Then after occlusion. [00:53:55]

Speaker4: How how long.

Speaker3: Was that course?

Speaker4: One year.

Speaker3: Oh, one year.

Speaker4: Yeah, one year, of course.

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:54:00] yeah. Um, yeah. And you actually treat your own patients and, you know, on that.

Speaker4: What was it, [00:54:05] what was the aha.

Speaker3: What is an aha moment in occlusion when you, when [00:54:10] you, when you’re looking into occlusion.

Speaker4: What I.

Speaker3: It’s a ridiculous question to.

Speaker4: Ask. No no no no [00:54:15] no I mean I.

Speaker1: I had a patient who, who hasn’t got treatment but, but he [00:54:20] couldn’t open his mouth very wide, you know, and um, occlusion at the time believed because he didn’t [00:54:25] have balance, occlusion, the muscles in tension. And I remember equilibrating him and all of a sudden his mouth [00:54:30] is dropped open literally twice to opening, you know what I mean? I said, wow, you [00:54:35] know, but the biggest aha moment will come later on. I’ll tell you about prosthetics, because I [00:54:40] learned how to make dentures in a in a very special way from Joe Massad. It was it was [00:54:45] a three day course, I think three, three day course.

Speaker4: And did you do the.

Speaker3: Setups yourself as the dentist? [00:54:50]

Speaker1: No, no, but but what it involves is, um, taking neutral zones [00:54:55] and external impressions and everything. But the main thing was I then combine dentures [00:55:00] and restorative dentistry, um, and smile design. And one of the things [00:55:05] I learned from Jim was how the setting of the setting up of the teeth to a certain pronunciation, you see, [00:55:10] and I had this 80 year old lady, I made her a fool. Fools. And [00:55:15] a trillion. A trillion, by the way, my train comes back on an articulated, and I actually [00:55:20] moved the teeth around because I say to my patients that I guarantee you within 30s you’ll [00:55:25] be speaking perfectly. I guarantee that I do, and they all do. So [00:55:30] if I’m not articulate, I put the teeth in the mouth. I said, can you can you read this passage, please? And she started [00:55:35] reading it and I could hear a lisp somewhere, you see. So I looked underneath to see how the teeth were [00:55:40] actually, um, interacting. And I find it was a lateral upper right lateral. So I twisted the lateral [00:55:45] by about 30 degrees. So she had a twisted lateral. And then she started reading, oh that’s better. Now it’s gone. [00:55:50] I said, okay, I says, when you in your own she’s 80 years old. Remember I said in your own in your younger days, did [00:55:55] you have a twisted tooth? I have no idea. So I said, right. Anyway, let’s get your husband in now, um, [00:56:00] and see what he thinks. So. So he sits down, I says, I says, you know, um, Geoffrey, [00:56:05] Martha’s going to read a passage to you.

Speaker1: I want you to see if you can understand what she’s saying. She [00:56:10] read about four lines, and all of a sudden he got up and moved his face right up to her face [00:56:15] and looked at the last row, and he said, I, you had a tooth like that when we got married, [00:56:20] you know? And I thought, wow, I mean, that was like, wow, I’m going to [00:56:25] build a shrine to you. So she says, what, what what are you talking about? So I showed her the mirror. Then I showed her the mirror, I says. You [00:56:30] got a twisted two, didn’t you? Um. That’s why the lift has gone. Now is how your mouth is moving. And [00:56:35] she turned to the husband and she just goes, yeah. And don’t forget, they got married when they were in their 19 [00:56:40] or 20. And she said, yeah, when we were courting, you had a tooth like that. Your natural teeth. It was twisted. [00:56:45] So I said to her, so we can either give you a perfectly straight teeth, you got a slight lisp, or [00:56:50] we’re going to leave it as a twisted. And she said, I’ll leave it as it twisted. And I was quite nice, [00:56:55] because when we came to fitting, he came with her again, and as he walked out, he just turned around and he [00:57:00] says, thanks for bringing me back down memory lane. So that was a real aha moment for me. [00:57:05] And I still do all that, my dentures. And it comes with now the in your.

Speaker4: In your full, [00:57:10] full.

Speaker3: Cases don’t you. Isn’t it a routine thing that you ask for photos of their child, [00:57:15] you know, when they had their teeth? Is that a routine?

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. So we would ask for [00:57:20] for natural teeth. Yeah. But then you also analyse the face. So [00:57:25] obviously unfortunately I can’t show you the photographs. But there was a, there was a lady who was worn [00:57:30] full force all her life and her face is completely collapsed. And you have to put the teeth above the ridge, all [00:57:35] that kind of stuff, you see. Yeah. And when I make my full fools, I make them in occlusal splint. [00:57:40] And I look at the rule of thirds, and I decide how far I want to open them up. And [00:57:45] then for this lady, we opened it up by about 6 or 7mm wide open, you know. [00:57:50]

Speaker4: Um, have you heard of Nick Mahindra? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: We actually talked about [00:57:55] it um, years ago on GDP UK. He, he, um, really discussed a few things with me. [00:58:00] He, he used something that was swallowing. I think it’s something swallowing. Is it swallowing?

Speaker4: He’s still open.

Speaker3: He he was [00:58:05] my boss here and he used to open by 20mm sometimes. So you’d get these, like, [00:58:10] faces go, oh, like this. And then two weeks later, everything would relax and [00:58:15] they’d look 20 years younger. Yeah. You know.

Speaker1: Well, because we use a splint to move them into [00:58:20] CR, so that’s the first thing you just kind of open up anywhere. So the splint at the same time is, [00:58:25] is pushes them back into CR. So when you actually start the dentures you’ve got a Gothic arched tracing. [00:58:30] And so the registration is taken with the Gothic tracing then more importantly [00:58:35] is that not only do teeth to the bone shrink vertically but horizontally. So [00:58:40] when we come to do the tri in and this the first time I did it was the scariest thing I ever did. [00:58:45] The pronunciation, everything was perfect. And then I removed all [00:58:50] the wax from the gingival margin to the to the border. All the wax, [00:58:55] okay? And I put a function impression material into that, and I put it back into the mouth. And I [00:59:00] got them to do certain exercises. And they now take a three dimensional impression of that space [00:59:05] that’s there. You know, I mean, that’s what makes people look younger, really, because [00:59:10] at the moment, if you put the the teeth above the, um, the, the ridge [00:59:15] and your, your flanges goes up, you have this huge space there and therefore the cheeks [00:59:20] falls in. So when they try to smile, they can only smile so much they can’t come all the way out. Whereas [00:59:25] if you fill that space, which is an empty space with the denture material, then [00:59:30] when they smile, they go straight out, you see, and and literally they look 20 years younger [00:59:35] and they can smile confidently, you know? Um, so we do all that.

Speaker1: I mean, I mean, there’s [00:59:40] 1 or 2, there’s only one technician that we use at the moment because he, he, he knows as much as I do. And he’s Rick [00:59:45] in, in, in London, his, his lab is about £1,000, but we charge about £4,000 [00:59:50] for our dentures. But and then you take the neutral zone impression, um, like some nice photographs. Where the [00:59:55] where the tongue. When they were speaking, it did a little thing like that. It’s kind of stuck out and went to the [01:00:00] right. And so that that area there was very narrow your, your, your, your margin for where to put the teeth [01:00:05] in. And the minute you put it there, she said, oh, I can talk properly now. It doesn’t move. Why is that? You know, because I’ve [01:00:10] allowed for your tongue to do this silly thing when you’re talking. Um, but yeah. So those are my real wow [01:00:15] moments, really? Is. Is prosthetics really how how if you follow the science, [01:00:20] it really works. People look 20 years. My dentures, they don’t look like, you know, stippling [01:00:25] and roots and things like that, because that’s too thin. If you take the denture out of the mouth, there are lumps and bumps because [01:00:30] you’re filling in all the empty space. They just lumps and bumps. And yet, you know, the face looks so. [01:00:35]

Speaker4: But is facially driven, facially facially.

Speaker1: Driven, you know? Um, so those are my wow moments. [01:00:40]

Speaker3: But it’s not like you only do those. I mean, I was looking on your feed [01:00:45] and you were taking taking delivery of your medet. Oh, [01:00:50] yeah. Um, and, you know, like, you’re still, still, still, you know, [01:00:55] technology and looking to improve and all that. It’s amazing the number of different things [01:01:00] you do well. But have you ever thought about teaching?

Speaker4: No.

Speaker1: Well, I [01:01:05] honestly, I have been asked to give to actually run this course on the prosthetics. My, my technician [01:01:10] says because we need to run the course. I said, we’re going to run the course. It has to be done properly. So there are technicians. You [01:01:15] have to give the course to, the technician has to learn from you, and then they bring their own patients. And I think at the [01:01:20] moment there’s been so much in my life going on, um, especially with twins, that, you know, I [01:01:25] didn’t have the time to I want to spend some time with the family, you know, but I’m more than happy. When [01:01:30] people come to shadow me, they can see what I do. Um, how I do things. I mean, the only thing I know nothing about [01:01:35] is orthodontics. I don’t know why I can carry out the ortho exam class to div one and all that kind of stuff, and [01:01:40] then so what? So I decided not to have anything to do with ortho. It just doesn’t [01:01:45] click with me at all. But everything else I like to do things. Well, I mean, it’s I mean, there’s a lot [01:01:50] of jokes and every time I go in a course, I’m the oldest guy. Everybody’s like 20 years younger, [01:01:55] you know, and I yeah, I mean, you know.

Speaker3: It’s a funny thing, Chris, [01:02:00] because I noticed that on our courses as well, our courses are a bit more, you know, composite bonding, [01:02:05] a lot of lot of young, old, older guys know better than to compensate. But but [01:02:10] but but you know, it’s a young thing. Um, but I’ve noticed that [01:02:15] I’ve noticed that anyone anyone over 40 is the [01:02:20] odd one out of 40.

Speaker4: Okay, well.

Speaker1: How old do you think I am? You can see me on the screen. [01:02:25]

Speaker3: You’re 58.

Speaker4: I’m always [01:02:30] thinking, no, you’re more. I’m over 60.

Speaker3: I just, I just did the calculation of.

Speaker4: If you’re [01:02:35] suppose to go by appearance. Okay. Not mathematics. Okay.

Speaker3: But my my [01:02:40] protein kicked in a bit too late.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Appearance, not mathematics. [01:02:45]

Speaker3: You should look at teaching, dude. Yeah, and I know it’s a it’s a hassle and a headache and all that. [01:02:50] Yeah, but you clearly thrive thrive on explaining things. And [01:02:55] I can see you’re doing it one on one with people you’re having. You know, I don’t know, lunch with, uh, [01:03:00] my good friend Alex. Oh, yeah. Butcher. Um, or, [01:03:05] you know, another geek. Another geek. But, you know, teaching doesn’t have to be, like, [01:03:10] a high risk thing. You can start with a very simple. You know, I’m putting on a course, um, [01:03:15] for free and just see what that’s like, but you’ll love it. You’ll love it.

Speaker4: I think one of the.

Speaker1: Best [01:03:20] things I could do to tell you the truth is, I was very privileged to give a [01:03:25] talk to ace, and the title of the course was How to Become a Successful Dentist, [01:03:30] you see, and I started that course by how to, you know, [01:03:35] there are various things you have to do, but there are various things that you have to, um, to be [01:03:40] a successful dentist. You know, you laid out the various things like leaving the NHS, going private. I talked about what exactly [01:03:45] is rapport, what exactly is ethics? Uh, but the most important thing is about [01:03:50] which. Which I probably wouldn’t say here, but, um, on the course I did say it [01:03:55] is that I probably have the record of after 20 years in NHS [01:04:00] dentistry, at least when I went private, I did not have one [01:04:05] abusive comment. Or one abusive, angry patient. In fact, I had loads [01:04:10] of thank you cards. Things like saying no. Thank you so much for the last 20 years that you’ve looked after us. [01:04:15] Um, I do totally understand why you’re going private, and I wish you the very best in your new [01:04:20] venture. Had loads of cards like that, you know, I was actually quite touched, and we never had it. And that’s because [01:04:25] we built rapport with the patients, you know? And the problem with rapport is something which people [01:04:30] don’t really understand what it is, um, and how you go about it. But that course was, was probably [01:04:35] one of the most beneficial things, because you can learn confidence building and, you know, they are they are great people teaching composites [01:04:40] all over the thing.

Speaker1: You know, I’ll just I’ll just be another pea in the pod, which is there’s [01:04:45] no point really. And then as far as, um, all the other stuff, there are other people who can [01:04:50] teach that, but I think we I could excel in this. Really help, help you to think why [01:04:55] you want to go private and how to go private to more or less the closest you come to guaranteeing success. You [01:05:00] don’t need millionaires in your on your list. You know, many of my patients, when I’m fully [01:05:05] private, some of them just work, work in factories, you know, many of them very nice people. [01:05:10] As long as you understand your patients, you don’t price them out of your market. Then. Then you can go private. [01:05:15] You know, it’s more or less a guaranteed guarantee, especially now with NHS falling apart, you [01:05:20] know, um, this is the best time to go private. But people just don’t know, understand why, how [01:05:25] to go how to go about it. Because for me, it’s not just as simply of getting somebody in to [01:05:30] produce all the paperwork and you send it off to them. There’s a hell of a lot more to it than that. And [01:05:35] I always say to somebody, if you want to go private, you plan to go private in two years time. [01:05:40] I’ll tell you how, and I can guarantee you you will be successful. You know, as I said.

Speaker3: Do [01:05:45] you think everyone’s up to delivering on whatever, you know, this scheme of [01:05:50] yours?

Speaker1: Yes, yes, because, um, it’s a.

Speaker3: Very simple thing that everyone can. [01:05:55]

Speaker4: Do. Yep. Absolutely.

Speaker1: But the thing is, very often dentists will say, I’m going to go private. I’ve [01:06:00] had enough of doing this shit work under the NHS. No, we are going private. [01:06:05] Everybody and everybody is a team effort. If not everybody is on board, it [01:06:10] will fail.

Speaker4: Definitely he’ll.

Speaker1: Fail. You know, and [01:06:15] private dentistry is not about doing works by Michelangelo. Private dentistry is [01:06:20] purely the most. The fundamental thing in private dentistry is time. [01:06:25] Patients. You know, I mean, can you imagine, you know, when somebody moves into an area. Yeah. And they ding [01:06:30] dong, go to the neighbour and says, hey, we’re looking for a dentist. Um, who can you recommend? So [01:06:35] the wife is not going to, you know, you think the wife is going to say, oh, I go to Smiths down in the high Street because they [01:06:40] got this beautiful waterfall feature in the waiting room. It’s actually beautiful, the waiting room. She’s not going to recommend [01:06:45] them for that. Or the husband is not going to say, oh, he’s an engineer. Or I go to Smiths [01:06:50] too, because he’s got a red band NSK handpiece, you know, and he’s got he’s got an internal scanner. [01:06:55] You know, what people remember is that people buy people, and if you can spend [01:07:00] time, that’s the most important thing. As long as you don’t have two left hands, but you spend time listening, [01:07:05] talking, you’ve won them over. And that’s what consent ultimately is all about, [01:07:10] obtaining consent, you know? And, um, if you spend time then then then obviously then the, the basic things you [01:07:15] need to do, I would say is you’re doing composites, learn to do the rubber dam, learn to do it.

Speaker1: Because rubber dam is not [01:07:20] just about moisture control, it’s about the ambience being very relaxed. And that’s what patients are paying you for [01:07:25] charge for your time, you know, I mean, I just I just had a, had a gentleman [01:07:30] ring up yesterday. Um, he has an appointment at about a month’s time. I’m quite happily booked up. And [01:07:35] the complex will be doing for him is is £280. And he said, well, well, his friend had [01:07:40] it done for £100. You know, I got that, you know, and I just as well if [01:07:45] you really feel that price range suits you then you’re probably better off going there. You’re in the wrong place here, you [01:07:50] know, because we do things maybe differently. But what I do, I will charge for this. [01:07:55] And I say it in a very matter of fact way, that you’re very welcome to go there to do it, have it done if you want, [01:08:00] you know. But then it means you’re leaving the practice, you know. But private dentistry, this is all about [01:08:05] time, you know, learn how to talk and just spend time with you. Learn how to listen to the patient. You know, very [01:08:10] often nobody listens to patients. Again, the thing that always gets in my head from analytic philosophy, you [01:08:15] know, we should listen with the purpose of understanding, not to reply. Try to understand the patient [01:08:20] behind the words.

Speaker4: I mean, the.

Speaker3: We did an episode called leaving the NHS [01:08:25] and it was one of the most listened to episodes we did, but [01:08:30] it always makes me like makes me worry when people say they don’t want to or [01:08:35] they they when they’re scared of going private. Of course you’ve got the business side of [01:08:40] it, right? You know that knowing you’ve got a contract or whatever it is and they do in the NHS. [01:08:45] But the thing that gets me is, you know, you can keep things simple in private. You don’t have [01:08:50] to be christophorus to be a private dentist. You don’t have to be Jason [01:08:55] Smithson to be a private dentist. You can be the the simplest private dentist. You could be the guy [01:09:00] I became, right? I was bleaching and bonding.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Every [01:09:05] single other thing I was, I was referring out, um, you could be anyone you want. You could be anyone you [01:09:10] want as a private dentist. Um. And it’s the NHS system. That’s the weird one. [01:09:15] Yeah, it’s not the private. I mean, private is what dentistry is, right? You [01:09:20] the patient? Yeah, yeah. And it is, is where you’ve got the middle man. Yeah. [01:09:25] Um, as soon as there’s a middle man, that’s that’s weird. You know, that’s the strange thing. [01:09:30]

Speaker4: Now, your your.

Speaker1: Brother in law, okay? Your brother in law, the ball. Well, [01:09:35] the NHS is the one looking down into the bowl of gold.

Speaker4: Okay? The dentist. [01:09:40] We are the bowl in the fish. Fish in the bowl. Okay.

Speaker1: The NHS is the one looking.

Speaker4: Down on that. [01:09:45] The dog? There’s no. But tell [01:09:50] me.

Speaker3: About why you’ve decided to stay single handed. Is it just for simplicity? [01:09:55]

Speaker1: Um, about. Oh, well, I’ve been on my own about 20 years ago. [01:10:00] I think I decided to advertise for an associate, and I specifically [01:10:05] said that, you know, what I would do is, I don’t know, in those days whether they had this word or not, these words. [01:10:10] But it was basically a personal development plan. I said I would I would ask you to go on certain composite courses so I know [01:10:15] you’re up to date with that root canal, rubber dam, all the courses I know, you know, because you’re about to come [01:10:20] into a private practice, you have to do things properly by the signs, okay? Not just, you know, and the majority [01:10:25] of associates wants to know how much you wanted to earn. Then they wanted to go on courses. Already got my BDA. Yeah, you [01:10:30] got your BDA 20 years ago. Things have moved on. But the best one I had was [01:10:35] uh, I was holding the CV in my hand and this person rang up before attending [01:10:40] for the interview and asked me about the thing you see, and I told her about the personal development plan. This [01:10:45] person said, why do I have to go on all these courses? Because I’m a registered specialist [01:10:50] with the General Dental Council, you see. And I knew and obviously with the CV, I know exactly [01:10:55] what the speciality is.

Speaker1: And I said, what’s your speciality? And [01:11:00] this person said, oral surgery. This person has been in secondary care for, I don’t know, five, [01:11:05] six years now. You want to come to a private dentist. You’ve never done that. You haven’t done a composite in six, [01:11:10] seven years and you want to charge. My patients £250. You know, get real. So when I said, [01:11:15] what is your speciality? And she says, um, he, this person said, um, oral surgery. I said, well, how does [01:11:20] that help you put the composite in click. He just hung up, you know. So after [01:11:25] a while I gave up. I gave up having an associate because everybody wants to know how much money is in. You’re not coming to my practice to screw up the reputation. [01:11:30] But then of course, years later, we now have all this nonsense [01:11:35] about, you know, if you have an associate, then you have to do auditing and you have to do this. You know, I could do without [01:11:40] all that hassle, you know, I mean, I mean, I would love to have an associate. I would love to show them how to do things, you know, but to [01:11:45] have to do all the extra stuff from regulations, it’s just, you know, I [01:11:50] got to get a life.

Speaker4: Yeah, but this.

Speaker3: Is that’s kind of a new thing. Whereas for 20 years you haven’t done it. [01:11:55] Well you are you’re a control freak. Are you like, do you want do you want to, you know, you don’t [01:12:00] want to even risk the guy doing one thing wrong type person.

Speaker4: No, I’m not a control.

Speaker1: Freak at all. You can ask my staff. I can tell you this. [01:12:05] My.

Speaker4: I have two, um.

Speaker1: Some of my staff are self-employed. I can tell you this. They [01:12:10] are more self-employed than the majority of associates in this country. So, for example, [01:12:15] my my hygienist is, um, so I always consult an [01:12:20] employment law lawyer to make sure my contract is satisfied. Hmc self-employment, [01:12:25] you see. So first of all, my hygienist is not to ask me about holidays. [01:12:30] Really. So there are days I could come in on a Wednesday expecting her to be here. And she’s not here. You [01:12:35] know, she’s just she’s her own boss, basically. And she sets her own time, you [01:12:40] know, and and all I say. So all I said to her is that, you know, in your contract it says, you know, you have [01:12:45] to get a locum in, but, you know, if you if you if you’re not unreasonable, I would never insist you get a locum in. So [01:12:50] if you decide to go for six months and get a local, otherwise you lose your job. You know what I mean? But but the good thing [01:12:55] is, because you’re so open with them, they are very, um, they don’t abuse it, so I’m not controlling [01:13:00] it at all. So there are times I turn up and the hygienist or the therapist is not even there. I didn’t [01:13:05] know she was going on holiday, you know? So no, I’m not I’m not a control freak. What I do [01:13:10] like is that I control, in so far as act in the best interest of the patient, not [01:13:15] your wallet. And if you can satisfy that philosophy. See, see, when I employ people, I [01:13:20] don’t employ people on, on on clinical skills nurses, or even if a dentist, I employ them [01:13:25] on attitude and personality.

Speaker1: I want to know that you’re a human being, a person, a people person, [01:13:30] and you want to do is just do good dentistry for the best interest of your patient. And then clinical [01:13:35] skills would follow. And I can teach you that. I’m quite happy to, to teach you that. But if you came [01:13:40] to me, you know, with, with 5000 degrees and everything like that, I wouldn’t even look at that [01:13:45] because I want I’ll be talking to you like we are talking now for quite a long time, because after you [01:13:50] talk, you come to know somebody very well. And I just need to know what kind of a person you are. And that’s how I would employ [01:13:55] and then I so about 14, 15 years ago I had my twins. So [01:14:00] I decided not to have the associate I would I would love to have an associate, to tell you the truth. You know, if I know it’s Neil, somebody was going to look [01:14:05] after the practice, look after the patients. I mean, who knows? They could end up buying when I retire. [01:14:10] Um, having the practice because this is one of the top practices. And secondly, this is [01:14:15] an ideal building to build up a specialist practice. We got enough rooms for all the all the specialities, [01:14:20] you know, um, it’s a gold mine, really. But then now with vicarious [01:14:25] liability and my bad experience of people were just wanting how much money, money they can earn. Um, that kind [01:14:30] of puts me out a bit. You know, I could do without the hassle of of of regulations, really. [01:14:35]

Speaker4: But so what what do you do.

Speaker3: When it comes to, when it comes to selling this, this baby? [01:14:40] What will you do.

Speaker4: When it comes? What will you.

Speaker3: Do when it comes to selling? I mean, would you [01:14:45] ever sell to a corporate.

Speaker4: Right. That that I.

Speaker1: Probably won’t say. What I can say is, um, [01:14:50] somebody is obviously keeping an eye on when people qualified and [01:14:55] working out their age because I actually had three phone calls out of the blue, um, saying, [01:15:00] so you must be coming up to retirement. We just can’t buy your practice. And I said, what the hell [01:15:05] are you? You know who who who are you? You see, and they obviously they wouldn’t say, you see. And then one of them, I suspect, is a corporate [01:15:10] because, you see, I represent somebody else I present, you know, um, [01:15:15] for me, I just need to know that somebody is going to look after the practice. But [01:15:20] the main, the main thing with my practice is if you’re going to buy it, because I’m more than happy to to turn this into [01:15:25] a, into a residential property again and rent it out and leave it as a as [01:15:30] to my, to my children in the world. But the main thing is this is an ideal. This is a very [01:15:35] middle class area. You got the patients with the money, and this is a practice where you can easily put in [01:15:40] one surgery for an implant surgeon, one surgery for endo, one surgery for hygiene, [01:15:45] one surgery for for general restorative dentistry. You can easily put about 4 or 5 surgery. And [01:15:50] you can easily have a have a CT scan room. So if you do buy my what you will be [01:15:55] buying is my building to turn it into a specialist practice. So I will [01:16:00] be selling it for a hell of a lot more than what I earn. Because I’m not. I’m not really a high, high earner in that sense, you know, [01:16:05] and that’s what you want. And then what they’ll be buying it for because you won’t get and this, this, you know, there’s [01:16:10] car parking. So if you want to buy this practice. This, then you will be paying a lot more than what? [01:16:15] What my accountant shows you, because it is an investment for you that you can turn this into a specialist practice. You have all [01:16:20] the rooms, everything there, you know, let.

Speaker3: Me let me just say, let me just say that if a sale comes [01:16:25] out of this podcast, I expect my 1% here.

Speaker4: I whiten [01:16:30] your teeth for free.

Speaker3: Thank you.

Speaker4: Tell [01:16:35] me.

Speaker3: Tell me about, [01:16:40] uh, family life. And, you know, if you had a day to yourself, what would you do? [01:16:45] No. No family, no. No expectation. Like, what are your what do you do outside of work?

Speaker1: I [01:16:50] actually have a lot of days like this.

Speaker4: You know? For real? Yeah, because my [01:16:55] daughters.

Speaker1: Are teenagers now, so, you know. Yeah. They’re not interested in, you know, [01:17:00] doing.

Speaker3: How many days are you working clinically? Like wet fingered.

Speaker4: Monday.

Speaker1: Tuesdays and Thursdays [01:17:05] is 930 till five Wednesday I don’t work. And Fridays I finish at three. [01:17:10]

Speaker3: Should cut the Friday. Cut the Friday.

Speaker4: Man, I.

Speaker1: Can’t cut many.

Speaker4: Patients, you [01:17:15] know, but but the thing is, as a private practice, it’s very, very easy.

Speaker1: It really is. [01:17:20] And the patients are very, very nice. I mean every, all the, the bank staff and new people coming [01:17:25] in, I can’t believe how nice the patients are. Literally 100% of our patients are very, very nice. You know, I [01:17:30] still remember when I had my twins, when they were born, uh, we had about 60 cards of congratulations. [01:17:35] And then some of them even bought presents for the girls, you know? So, so, so I [01:17:40] do believe in kind of looking after the patients very, very well. But but yeah, that that’s [01:17:45] why I back to.

Speaker3: The day off. Back to the day off question. Yeah. If you had a day, half [01:17:50] a day, whatever. No no no. No expectation. No nothing. What would you get up to? What would [01:17:55] you like to get up to?

Speaker1: Various things. But at the moment, my my real mind space [01:18:00] is having a nice something to eat. And on my phone I’m watching a movie [01:18:05] and really, really. Yeah. You know, and that’s me. Like in my in my, in my own, in my [01:18:10] own way. So I still do that. So sometimes like on the Saturday morning I will go somewhere for breakfast [01:18:15] for a cooked breakfast, you know, by yourself, by myself. Yeah, yeah. And then my family knows that, [01:18:20] you know. Or I might decide I really, really want to eat this special fried noodles, you know. So [01:18:25] in Derby, I would just drive to Birmingham on my own, um, because they’re quite happy to stay at home. And I’m [01:18:30] quite happy with that. I’ll drive down there, go to this restaurant, watch my movie, eat my meal. Um, they [01:18:35] know me quite well. They every time they see me, they. They got no problems with that. I mean, I have special headphones, earphones. So [01:18:40] they’re not disturbing anybody else. So I’m very happy with doing that, you know. But at the same time, you know, [01:18:45] I’ll be more than happy to have somebody join me for a meal and we can talk for 3 or 4 hours, you know, I mean, you [01:18:50] know, I think people find me quite easy to talk to, so I do that quite a lot, too. I never say.

Speaker4: I’m [01:18:55] the same.

Speaker3: I’m the same with the podcast, with the podcast. So I do it quite a lot because I’m on the [01:19:00] road a little bit. I end up in, in some restaurant in wherever it is, Glasgow. [01:19:05] The good thing is that the quality of restaurants has gone through the roof in the UK, where I [01:19:10] remember a time when it was all like very hard to get good food. Yeah, everywhere [01:19:15] in certain towns, in certain towns now it’s a lot easier than it was. Um, [01:19:20] did you you did, I guess you got you got the the email, our [01:19:25] final questions. Did you.

Speaker4: Miss [01:19:30] it out?

Speaker3: Yeah, I final question. It’s fancy [01:19:35] dinner party. Hey free fancy dinner party. Three guests, dead [01:19:40] or alive. Who would you have?

Speaker1: Um. I [01:19:45] personally, I would, I would, um. Oh, let me see. What is this name? Hang [01:19:50] on. Let me let me just find his name. This this guy is this guy is very current on on on on YouTube. [01:19:55] I should get his name for you. I would love to go for her. However, he [01:20:00] would definitely be one of the three. He is.

Speaker4: Jordan Peterson. Yes. Oh [01:20:05] my goodness, mind reader.

Speaker3: I felt [01:20:10] your vibe and I felt you.

Speaker1: Jordan Peterson would be one of them. And uh, and then [01:20:15] and I mean, another one is, is is quite funny because recently we were talking about some [01:20:20] Korean movies, you see. And which one? Iris. Iris.

Speaker4: Iris.

Speaker3: I heard [01:20:25] of it.

Speaker4: Yeah. Um, it’s.

Speaker1: It has everything. It’s got the it’s got the, um, the romance. [01:20:30] It’s got espionage. Really? On your seat. Nail biting stuff, but but [01:20:35] the but the, uh, lead actress is one of the most beautiful, um, Korean actresses, [01:20:40] you know? So you don’t have a fancy, you know, so Jordan Peterson on her. [01:20:45]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: I love that, you know?

Speaker4: Right. [01:20:50] And, uh, third one.

Speaker1: Let me let me let me give me a moment. Um.

Speaker4: Surely. [01:20:55]

Speaker3: Ignatius.

Speaker1: No.

Speaker4: No no no no.

Speaker1: I [01:21:00] spent six years with a guy working for a party for.

Speaker4: Bloody [01:21:05] hell. You know what I mean?

Speaker1: Spent six years. Spent six years with a guy.

Speaker4: Um, [01:21:10] yeah. There’s nothing new. He’s going to.

Speaker1: Say [01:21:15] that in six years.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker3: Just just, I [01:21:20] guess another hot check just to make your night amazing.

Speaker4: No. Why [01:21:25] would I want. You know, I’m drawing a blank. You [01:21:30] and Jordan Peterson.

Speaker3: Have a great night with you.

Speaker4: I think that person really.

Speaker1: Would [01:21:35] be, um, just some happy go lucky person. You know what I mean? Who? Who’s who [01:21:40] don’t have views.

Speaker3: You could have Jesus Christ, you could have your your great grandfather. You’re not going to have [01:21:45] to. Just some happy go lucky.

Speaker1: Jesus Christ, no no no no no. I talk to him every [01:21:50] day already.

Speaker3: But, you know, you could.

Speaker4: Have someone else. Yeah. You know. Yeah. [01:21:55]

Speaker3: Okay, let let that marinate. Let that marinate. [01:22:00] We’ll get back to it. Um, this is a like a deathbed question.

Speaker4: Okay? [01:22:05]

Speaker3: You’re on your deathbed. You’ve got your [01:22:10] friends and family or your loved ones around you. And you [01:22:15] want to leave them with three pieces of wisdom, three pieces of advice. What would they be? [01:22:20]

Speaker1: On my deathbed. The first one would be. [01:22:25] Be the person you are you are created to be. Basically, [01:22:30] do not feel you have to pull towards any particular point of view. [01:22:35] Believe in yourself and live your own life. You know [01:22:40] that would be the first one. Number two is. It’s better to have one good friend [01:22:45] than five and ten Facebook friends.

Speaker4: So always. [01:22:50]

Speaker1: Always be a people person. You know, learn, learn to share your your gifts [01:22:55] with other people. Make sure you’re not taken for a ride and you know and you’ll [01:23:00] be you’ll be a happy person. Don’t be selfish or anything like that. You know. Now, [01:23:05] I was once asked this, and the person who asked me [01:23:10] that was actually a by the book. So when I said share [01:23:15] and be people person, he goes and I had to say to him that what [01:23:20] you have, what you have missed, understood, is just just because you’re a people person doesn’t mean you have to be. [01:23:25] Let’s suppose you’re an introvert means you cannot be a people person. It just means that when you are with somebody else, [01:23:30] your attention is on them, not yourself.

Speaker4: But yeah.

Speaker1: So so [01:23:35] I mean, I’m very comfortable with my, my, my I mean, it’s funny you ask me this because because the other day, [01:23:40] you know, in the evening, I tend to reflect discernment on how the day [01:23:45] has gone so that I don’t carry any rubbish to the next anything that rubbish emotions to the next day, you [01:23:50] know.

Speaker3: How long does that take you?

Speaker1: You only need about ten, ten, 15 minutes, that’s all. You just [01:23:55] need to be on your own. Definitely. You must not be interrupted by anything. So the phone is switched off [01:24:00] and I’m lucky. I own my practice, so I sit in the practice. Do it. But if I didn’t have the practice before, I would drive somebody. [01:24:05] I sit in my car and I just do it and you literally just let your without forcing it. [01:24:10] You let your day run from the time you wake up, don’t force it. It’ll replay itself and as it [01:24:15] replaces itself, you suddenly aware of an emotion with something that you had missed in the day, you [01:24:20] know. So, for example, there was once where I just finished treating a family [01:24:25] and this little boy on his way out, he suddenly came back in. His family has already gone to the waiter and he says, [01:24:30] Chris, look what I made today at school. And he took out this little piece of paper that he had folded, and he was showing me how to fold it, unfold [01:24:35] it and everything. And I was looking at that and I said, Johnny, that’s, that’s really, really nice, you know? And the father came and [01:24:40] took him away, you see. And that moment passed. But then when I reflected on the day I could relive that moment, I suddenly [01:24:45] realised how good I felt and how privileged I felt that he came back in, you know, [01:24:50] um, then there was another time where, um, we have a [01:24:55] autistic child and, um, he gets very worked up very quickly. And [01:25:00] the father suddenly phoned up and said, you know, one tooth is coming through, and he’s really worked up because of his, [01:25:05] because of his medical condition. You know, I says, and I know the little child, I said, don’t bring bring him in at [01:25:10] 5:00.

Speaker1: I’ll see him because we’re fully. So he came in and um, and he said, this [01:25:15] tooth is coming through, you know, and the other one is still there. And I said, let’s have a look at it, okay? And then I [01:25:20] suspended. I said, no, you there’s nothing to worry. You just drop out naturally, you see. And [01:25:25] um, and I says, any time you’re worried, Jonathan, you come and talk to me, okay? And I looked him in the eye and I said, you come [01:25:30] and talk to me any time you’re worried, okay? He went outside first. Um, the mother was in the waiting room, and then the [01:25:35] father said, you know, that was so nice that he’s never done this before, that he suddenly found a dental [01:25:40] problem. He said, I need to go and see Chris. Normally, they avoid dentists, you know. [01:25:45] Now, when I replayed it back, I suddenly felt kind of quite emotional and touched. When [01:25:50] you start to hear the story behind that. So all you need is about ten 15 minutes. Let the day run back. [01:25:55] Um, from the time you wake up to the time when you suddenly have certain instances that you then suddenly become aware [01:26:00] of the emotion that went with it, and then you also become aware of how very angry you were with [01:26:05] somebody. You know that you had held it back. You bit your tongue, you know, but then once you become aware [01:26:10] of that, it surfaces and you don’t bring it over to the next day because you’re aware of that, [01:26:15] you know. Um, and, you know, um, but it’s about ten, 15 minutes every day. That’s that’s all [01:26:20] you need, really. Um.

Speaker3: Would you? If one of your twins said [01:26:25] they might want to be a dentist? Would you? I think I know the answer.

Speaker4: You’d say go [01:26:30] for it.

Speaker1: No, no, they said they don’t want to be. No, I mean, I’ll be very honest with them. I do a lot of careers advice [01:26:35] because many of the parents come back in the evening with, with a, with a son and I talk to them about various things, you know, [01:26:40] and I’ll be very honest with them in that, you know, I will be very happy for them to be a dentist. [01:26:45] If I was still working as a dentist, mentor them rather than leave them [01:26:50] at the mercy of some rogue principles and the NHS and all that kind of crap, you know? But [01:26:55] fortunately, one of them is incredibly good at art. And I mean, um, [01:27:00] incredibly good at art. And she’ll probably go towards the arts section. And the other one is, is [01:27:05] Einstein with mathematics, you know, um, but but they already said they don’t really want to be a dentist. So I [01:27:10] says, well, I mean, I didn’t jump up and down and say, yay, thank God for that, you know? But I just [01:27:15] said, well, if you ever think want to think about it, you just come back and talk to me. And I just respected their, their [01:27:20] thing. You know, as long as it’s not life or death, I try. They’re only 14 years old. I try to respect them and let them [01:27:25] make their own mistakes.

Speaker4: Yeah, but I mean.

Speaker3: As as general advice to someone who wants to do dentistry. [01:27:30] I mean, you know, you talked about the fee per item system in the 80s and paying for your house [01:27:35] in two years. And you know, the I don’t know, I’m not sure exactly whether you were saying [01:27:40] this, but the reason why people don’t do that now is because properties are so expensive. [01:27:45] Dentists aren’t earning as much as they were or whatever it is. Yeah, all the regulations, the [01:27:50] the, the drive for cosmetics, the digital, the GDC, [01:27:55] all those things that people worry about about dentistry and I yeah, all [01:28:00] the whole thing, the five year course, I, you know, I was I was telling my daughter, look at dentistry and then [01:28:05] I, and I now I know some of these, uh, very young, uh, associates of arts and things [01:28:10] and they’re so competitive, so competitive, you know, because [01:28:15] they have to get top grades to even get in in the first place. And they do so much. So they thought [01:28:20] maybe for the first time in my life, I thought, oh, maybe not, maybe, maybe, maybe [01:28:25] dentistry isn’t the right, right thing. Where do you sit on that on? Do you think it’s still [01:28:30] the great profession that it was when you got it? No.

Speaker1: I think first of all, I mean, I [01:28:35] mean, if I had my, uh, if I had my way. So first of all, yeah, [01:28:40] the GDC really needs to change because. Very often the see [01:28:45] if you look at it ethically. Um. When you [01:28:50] encourage people to whistleblow for minor things and you accept blue and blue complaints [01:28:55] from an ethical point of view, that is actually. More [01:29:00] unethical than keeping quiet and not whistle blowing, because when [01:29:05] you allow blue and blue, you are allowing the law to be used as a weapon. [01:29:10] The law is no longer answering to that higher principle. Laws are meant to meant to obey, which is [01:29:15] ethics, you see, and therefore the state of affairs is worse. So [01:29:20] sniper ethics means this dentist has harmed this one patient. [01:29:25] You need to report that dentist. And we openly accept that. That’s [01:29:30] nightmare ethics. You’re just looking at the benefit to that one patient. But when you look at the bigger picture, many [01:29:35] people will be using it as a weapon or patients are allowed to be using it as a weapon. The whole [01:29:40] scenario is more unethical, but unfortunately encouraging. Whistle blowing is [01:29:45] sniper ethics, and you’re not looking at the bigger picture of the greater harm is being done. [01:29:50] You know, the you know, judges and should always appeal [01:29:55] to the higher principle laws are meant to serve. So whether you’re a judge, whether you’re whether you’re a fitness to practice [01:30:00] panel member, appeal to the higher principle laws are meant to serve. Don’t just [01:30:05] look at the narrow, very narrow ice field. So as I said, ethics is a is a punch line that people like the [01:30:10] regulators like to throw around. There are many things which are very unethical if you really look into it in depth. [01:30:15] The process is unethical.

Speaker3: Although I had I had Len de Cruz on [01:30:20] recently and he was saying that, you know, that that thing about [01:30:25] the GDC and how how much they’re taking cases forward, or [01:30:30] he’s saying that that has all changed very much, but the perception hasn’t changed in [01:30:35] the profession, that that’s what’s going on. I mean, and he said there’s been changes to no win, no fee as well. [01:30:40] Um, which I wasn’t aware of. Um, you know, it’s almost [01:30:45] like a PTSD, you know, we’ve got it. And he said, oh, you know, it’s nothing like it was in 2015, 2016, [01:30:50] which is only a few years ago. Right. Which is why we’ve got that. But [01:30:55] but, you know, that information needs to go out, that things aren’t as bad as.

Speaker4: They were looking at that I. [01:31:00]

Speaker3: Think, you know, sorry, sorry. But you know, when you were talking about blue on blue, there was [01:31:05] there was a time where the GDC was was a was a growing business, [01:31:10] if you like. But, you know, it was actually they were building they wanted it to be bigger. [01:31:15] And apparently that’s no longer the case, which is, thank God. No.

Speaker4: Were you saying when they.

Speaker1: Say it’s no longer [01:31:20] now, if you look at it in depth ethically, because you get a lot of debates on this in the seminars. Ethics [01:31:25] is something that stands on its own. What you can’t use is. When [01:31:30] you say something’s not as bad as before, you are. You are using. A [01:31:35] bad situation to justify a less bad situation. So at the end of the day, [01:31:40] let’s say I’m going to kill somebody. There are two ways of killing somebody. Let’s say I’m going to I’m going to shoot [01:31:45] him in the head. He dies straight away, or I’m going to keep on stabbing him until he dies. What [01:31:50] you’re then saying is that what they use to stab people until they die, but now they shoot them in the head. So that’s okay, isn’t it?

Speaker4: You [01:31:55] know.

Speaker1: No, it’s not okay. You cannot use a less ethical scenario to [01:32:00] justify another scenario. You know, ethics stands on its own. Again, [01:32:05] ethics is a punch line. People don’t really understand what it really means just because it’s not as bad as before, [01:32:10] but it’s still bad. So that so on its own. You can’t [01:32:15] do that, you see. Otherwise we end up.

Speaker4: Doing all sorts. Well.

Speaker3: A [01:32:20] bit part of it. A big part of it was dental law partnership. I was really, really [01:32:25] frustrated with how can one law firm take on a whole profession, change our whole professional [01:32:30] lives? How is that possible? And again, because because the the business model isn’t isn’t [01:32:35] the same. Hopefully things are getting better, but and then.

Speaker1: Technically speaking, we shouldn’t. If people [01:32:40] had a duty of candour, then you know we shouldn’t need [01:32:45] them to. Law partnership because the process it started off as a good thing, I think, whereby people [01:32:50] were justified to have compensation and they couldn’t get anywhere else with it. But then, like everything, a good [01:32:55] thing. Eventually it goes off in a different direction. [01:33:00] So so so they’re not they open their doors and everything, you know. So initially I think the original idea was good. [01:33:05] I mean, I mean the number of times I can tell you I, um, I would fit a crown for [01:33:10] somebody, you know, porcelain bonded crown. And, uh, and so [01:33:15] it’s guaranteed for a year. It says in the, in the thing, but then 13 months later, the porcelain chips off, you see, [01:33:20] and, um, and so the guy is quite wealthy and he was quite happy to pay again [01:33:25] because he knows the only warranty for a year. I said, no, I’m gonna do it again for you for free. Now, he was actually leaving the practice because he’s [01:33:30] moving to the to the West Coast to to live, you see. So I’ll be moving away after this, Chris. I said, well, [01:33:35] let me make you a crown for there’s no charge. It’s under warranty. I thought it was only for a year. Yeah, I know, but I know that [01:33:40] it shouldn’t break after 13 or 14 months, so let me redo that for you free of charge. So [01:33:45] if you had a certain duty of candour, then we don’t need dental law partnership. But and then but then dental [01:33:50] partnership then becomes a takes on its momentum on its own, you know. And that’s sad because that’s [01:33:55] destroys the profession. Everybody’s scared.

Speaker4: Yeah. Of course you know.

Speaker3: Of [01:34:00] course. How would you like to be remembered?

Speaker1: You [01:34:05] know, one of the, um, one of the exercises we had to do in one of the Ignatian [01:34:10] retreats was that you were to imagine that somebody’s done [01:34:15] a sculpture of you, and it’s covered. I mean, you are now told to go and have a look [01:34:20] at the sculpture, you see, and then you draw the thing down and there are six or [01:34:25] 6 or 6 of us in the retreat. It was interesting what you saw sculptor [01:34:30] had done, which is how other people how do I want to be remembered? I, I hope I [01:34:35] will be remembered as somebody who will always be honest with people I don’t [01:34:40] flatter for no reason. I hope I have empowered people to be more of the person [01:34:45] you you’re born to be. I hope I’ve never consciously [01:34:50] directed people. What I tend to do is if people come and talk to me, is that I help them to find the answers to themselves. It’s not up to me [01:34:55] to say, and they do find the answers in themselves. That’s where the answer comes from, really. Um, and I’m [01:35:00] just a people person. I’m not. I’m not really a money minded person, you know, and I hope people [01:35:05] know that I’m always approachable. 24 over seven.

Speaker1: You know, I’ve always said to [01:35:10] friends, you ever need anything, you know, um, 24 over seven, my door is open. [01:35:15] I say that to my staff, you know, once I get to know them, that if and [01:35:20] I remember about. I wasn’t actually the, um, the principal at that time [01:35:25] was in school years ago, and at that time, I still said that, you know, anything happens in your house, my door is open [01:35:30] to you, and I get a phone call at 3:00 in the morning when something happened in the house, and [01:35:35] and this person ended up in A and E, you know, and the police were there and everything, [01:35:40] but but but this person said I just need to talk to talk to somebody because, you know, I said, that’s that’s [01:35:45] all right. So I spoke to this person at 3:00 in the morning, and then eventually she’s allowed to [01:35:50] go. Now the police are here. Um, I don’t actually know exactly fully the situation, but [01:35:55] as I said, my door is always open. I hope hopefully that’ll be. I’ll be remembered as that, you know, and I. And [01:36:00] I hope I’ll be remembered. I’ll be remembered. I have had the privilege of talking to Payman.

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:36:05]

Speaker3: We’ve we’ve got it on record now, but we’ve [01:36:10] got it on record. Amazing. But I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for doing this. [01:36:15]

Speaker4: Thanks for having.

Speaker1: Me. I enjoyed it too. And hopefully we meet you one day.

Speaker3: Cool. Absolutely.

Speaker2: This [01:36:20] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [01:36:25] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [01:36:30] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [01:36:35]

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [01:36:40] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [01:36:45] and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [01:36:50] value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [01:36:55] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [01:37:00] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

Speaker1: We often talk about this concept of of the the third victim or the second victim. The third, [00:00:05] the third victim is probably going to be you. You know, you suffer as a direct result of [00:00:10] that complaint or that error. And even if they don’t complain, you know, you walk home and you think, oh my [00:00:15] God, that’s me. I can’t believe I did this. I can’t believe I missed that. And every one of us, anybody [00:00:20] who’s doing dentistry will have done that, have that sinking feeling of I’ve done something wrong. And even if [00:00:25] the patient doesn’t complain, even if nobody finds out about it, you have that sinking feeling. And I think [00:00:30] that a that makes you a professional, it makes you a caring professional. You’re not burnt out. It means you still care, which [00:00:35] is great in itself, but it is one of the the real challenges of being a clinician and [00:00:40] dealing directly with patients, and also the fact that it happens in real time, you know, the [00:00:45] patient is not anaesthetised. You’re they’re, you know, they’re not under general anaesthetic. You can do what you like in the general [00:00:50] anaesthetic. Something goes wrong. Well, there’s no panic. There’s no stress here. You know, instantly something [00:00:55] goes wrong. They know you know it. And I think that’s why it’s it’s so challenging as a profession [00:01:00] when something goes wrong. Because. Because it is ever so personal.

Speaker2: This [00:01:05] is Dental Leaders [00:01:10] the podcast where you get to go one on [00:01:15] one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:20] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:25]

Speaker3: So let’s talk about the BDA brand. I [00:01:30] mean, you grew up in the BDA system, sort of the pack and all that. [00:01:35] It’s one of those love hate things the profession’s got with the BDA. I’m 100% [00:01:40] sure if it didn’t exist, you’d have to invent it. It’s a bit like the UN or something. You have [00:01:45] to we need one, right? And I know it must be a nightmare [00:01:50] to keep so many different types of people happy. And I know it’s ridiculous to [00:01:55] ask you to defend or or stand for an organisation [00:02:00] as giant as the BDA, but just for the sake of the argument, you and your skills. [00:02:05] You could have done this privately. You could, you could, you could have you could have gone and done another [00:02:10] one of these, um, you know, my, my, my good friend Neil has done his own one or whatever, [00:02:15] you know, one of those. But but you chose to go down the, the BDA route is that do you [00:02:20] feel like an element of sort of service to the profession?

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, I think [00:02:25] the, the two reasons we went to the BDA indemnity setup or indemnity [00:02:30] setup of the BDA was two reasons. The the first reason essentially was there were lots and lots of [00:02:35] BDA members complaining that the mutuals and insurance companies were not serving them well. [00:02:40] Basically, they discretionary companies would pull their cover at the last minute or subsequently, [00:02:45] at least they wouldn’t be there, etc. etc.. So we think this is very odd. So [00:02:50] we approached our sort of had a at that time, Peter Walsh was uh, head of the BDA [00:02:55] and we approached the organisation, said, you know, we can either work with you or, you know, let’s [00:03:00] sort this out. And we couldn’t get a straightforward answer with them. We said we might go into collaboration with them. Couldn’t get a real, [00:03:05] uh, sort of landing on that. So he said, okay, you know what, we’re going to do this ourselves because it’s not really our business. [00:03:10] We’ve been around this at trade union and professional association for over 100 years, and DMP is not our business. We shouldn’t [00:03:15] be our business at all. So for us to get into, we had to have a very good reason. The reason we [00:03:20] got into it was we wanted to be dentists for dentists, and we wanted to deliver a product [00:03:25] that was actually going to going to be the best for the patient, but also for the dentist. [00:03:30] So, so the difference between us, the biggest differences were, were contractual. [00:03:35] Um, so it’s not mutual. So you have a contract with us for insurance as opposed to mutual [00:03:40] discretionary relationship.

Speaker1: And we are all dentist for dentists and [00:03:45] we are occurrence based. So which is again what the mutuals are. But unlike an insurance company [00:03:50] which has claims made, if you left us an occurrence basis and a claim came in 510 [00:03:55] years down the line, you won’t need to be paying, run off, cover, etc. etc.. So. So we thought that was the [00:04:00] best model. And there was insurers RSA were the insurers that we went with. They [00:04:05] gave us a fantastic policy. We spent a long time costing it and getting getting it to where we want [00:04:10] it to be. And and that the rationale for why I think it’s the best thing is because it’s [00:04:15] a one stop shop, because you now have a professional association, you have a trade union, [00:04:20] you have every service that you could possibly have, including indemnity. So one of the frustrations [00:04:25] I had when I was a dental advisor, Dental protection was somebody had thrown up. We give them advice and they say, [00:04:30] oh, by the way, I’ve also my practice is stitching me up for the money. There’s a complaint, but [00:04:35] he’s holding the money back and there’s a relation, I think, well, I can’t help you with that. That’s a contractual issue. It’s a business [00:04:40] issue. You need to go to the BDA and they say, well, not a BDA member to give you [00:04:45] some advice, but I can’t I can’t really do much for you. Basically you need to be a member. Now we can simply say [00:04:50] you are a BDA member. Um, we’ve got a huge amount of advisory services, we’ve got compliance, [00:04:55] we’ve got health and safety, we’ve got a whole range of things.

Speaker1: And the beauty about. And [00:05:00] what is sad is that it’s only when I started actually working [00:05:05] the BDA that I realised just how much gets done. I was a committee member at Young Dentist on PEC [00:05:10] and I knew what was going on to greater or less extent, but I didn’t realise just how much goes on. There’s [00:05:15] nothing in dentistry. The BDA doesn’t know about every single aspect of [00:05:20] every British professional life they know about, and the stuff that people don’t know about, they know about. Whether [00:05:25] it’s related to the GDC, the NHS or whatever, and we deal with them every single day. There’s new stuff coming across [00:05:30] the desk every single day. Policy decisions by the NHS, by NHS England, by the GDC, [00:05:35] by, uh, CQC. These guys are on it every day and I could pick up the phone to anybody [00:05:40] in this organisation and they’ll know about every single thing that’s going on. And if they don’t know about it, [00:05:45] they’ll soon find out about it. That is unique because there’s no matter no matter what organisation, there’s no [00:05:50] way that they’d have that amount of knowledge and expertise bang up to date. And I think the [00:05:55] frustration is that it’s seen as a trade union, which it is, and it’s badged [00:06:00] as NHS. You’re just an NHS organisation and you really don’t care. You, uh, care [00:06:05] a hoot about private dentistry. And I think we recognise that, that it’s been branded [00:06:10] as that.

Speaker1: But when we, we looked at this recently and said actually everything we’ve got on our [00:06:15] website actually is not specifically NHS. There is, there is some NHS stuff, but [00:06:20] most of it’s private stuff. How you run your practice, how you take payments, uh, all [00:06:25] the every bit of advice that applies to private entity as well. And I think the, the difficulty [00:06:30] we have is and it’s a mantra from my colleague Russell Russell, he says we [00:06:35] aren’t NHS dental private, we are just dentists. Okay. Simple, straightforward dentistry. And [00:06:40] we happen to earn our income either privately or from an NHS contract or from [00:06:45] both. Okay, we are not. And the badge ourselves as an NHS dentist or [00:06:50] as a private dentist is actually a is actually a fallacy because we are just dentists. We’re full stop [00:06:55] clinically, we’re dentists with private dental treatment and it just happens to be the contract we’re working under, [00:07:00] the payment method that that we get. And I think we forget that when when the BDA [00:07:05] representing people, they represent the NHS for pay and rations to the to the government, but they’re also representing [00:07:10] them as a profession. And we’re in there fighting with them for against [00:07:15] the GDC. We’re the ones who came up with who challenged the, the GDC with, with their own money, [00:07:20] with the annual retention fee years ago. One, the one the, the ruling [00:07:25] that the, the, uh, judicial review and, [00:07:30] you know, we did it thinking actually we might get more members if we do this. [00:07:35] We didn’t just kind of set people kind of just for.

Speaker3: The benefit.

Speaker1: You [00:07:40] get benefit. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, it happened then.

Speaker3: Correct me if I’m wrong. If [00:07:45] you had to make the case against the BDA, incredibly unfair of me to make you do this. It would be [00:07:50] that would it that it or is it something else.

Speaker1: But no I think I think the [00:07:55] case against them would be we’ve probably haven’t served the private [00:08:00] dentists as much as we should. And and it was it was the reason why bapd British private dentistry [00:08:05] set up in the middle of Covid, because it looked like we were just an organisation that supported dentists [00:08:10] through Covid. We we wanted the support of them. We we fought [00:08:15] tooth and nail to, to get that. And we kind of ignored, ignored the plight of private entities. We weren’t getting the support that NHS [00:08:20] dentists did. And I think we sort of took a hard look at ourselves and said, yeah, you’re probably right. We we [00:08:25] weren’t as aware of it and I think we were probably going to get to, uh, we’re going [00:08:30] to get to the situation very soon, where as a policy, the BDA will just be saying, you know what, NHS [00:08:35] is dead, dead in the water. You may as well just bail out and start looking for another form of income. And I think we’re very [00:08:40] close to that. We’re pretty well there now. Um, because nobody, nobody knows [00:08:45] the NHS better than us. We literally have meetings on a weekly basis with NHS England. [00:08:50] There’s no chance of contract reform. There’s no chance of of getting the the udas. So [00:08:55] we’ll be there for many years to come. And that’s a broken system. It’s been broken since 2006. [00:09:00] And this is the second health select committee that said it [00:09:05] said as much as broken. And we’re still and nobody’s the government’s making no attempt [00:09:10] to change it. So so I think the answer is going to be that the the criticism might be we weren’t. [00:09:15]

Speaker1: And I think one of the criticisms might also be we don’t tell people enough about [00:09:20] what we do. You know, we do a lot, but sometimes we do things behind [00:09:25] the scenes because when an organisation makes an [00:09:30] incorrect decision and we challenge it and they say, yeah, okay, you know, you’re right. If we went to the press or went [00:09:35] to the members every time and said, guess what, the GDC were going to do this. We told them not to or NHS [00:09:40] England was going to do this. We changed their mind. They said, oh, right, well, fantastic. We’re not going to talk to us ever again because, [00:09:45] because all we’re going to do is, is, is spill the beans on them. So, so I, you know, we work behind the [00:09:50] scenes an awful lot and things that we, we have lots of little victories or changes [00:09:55] of minds because we because of that approach, because they recognise that we’re not going to go and. Gladstone [00:10:00] undermine people’s confidence in them because we had a minor victory or a major [00:10:05] victory. So don’t shout from the rooftops. So. So I think that’s in a sense it’s the frustration [00:10:10] of how this this organisation operates. And I see that on a daily basis, thinking we [00:10:15] do so much for everybody. And, and, and it’s just, you know, a few members who recognise [00:10:20] it because they use the services, other people don’t use the services. They actually what did I get from my membership? [00:10:25] I think that’s that’s the problem.

Speaker3: I mean, talking about bringing [00:10:30] the two areas together, we’re talking about blame when things go wrong in, in, [00:10:35] in dentistry. And we talk about shame when that happens. And [00:10:40] then the question of sort of representation within BDA [00:10:45] is, is it something particular to dentistry that do you think is something particular [00:10:50] to dentistry. That means that we, number one, are not united. And [00:10:55] number two, when something goes wrong, we we’re [00:11:00] scared of it. You know, we’ve got black box thinking, um, and, you know, the [00:11:05] way that we run away from errors. Is there something specific to dentistry, [00:11:10] or do you think this is just professions in general?

Speaker1: I think it’s professions in general. I mean, I think there’s probably [00:11:15] a slight there’s well, not I mean the, the, the competitive, the [00:11:20] representation. And I think, um, interesting I don’t think that’s the same amongst lawyers. [00:11:25] Um, you know, my son’s a lawyer. I’ve obviously got, um, people who [00:11:30] are lawyers. Uh, my other son’s an actuary. They don’t have that sort of, uh, [00:11:35] because they don’t have that sort of split nature about them. Because [00:11:40] we are partly because we are competitive, because we’re competing with each other in [00:11:45] one sense, a dentist, uh, you know, from one, one street across to the next, you kind of competing [00:11:50] for business. So there may be an element of we’re kind of divided ourselves artificially because somebody, [00:11:55] probably somebody NHS. There is almost a dismissive approach to an [00:12:00] NHS dentist. To stays in the NHS will surely, surely be bright enough to see that the NHS [00:12:05] is dead. You should be leaving. So there’s there’s almost a pejorative sense of [00:12:10] being an NHS dentist. So there’s kind of competition between dentists, but it’s also division because [00:12:15] you have dcp’s, you have different groups in the profession [00:12:20] wanting different things at different times. And I think that that also leads to that sort [00:12:25] of sense of division. And so I think that that’s a particular problem. But but the feeling of [00:12:30] making mistakes and errors and shame is probably not unique to dentistry. I [00:12:35] think everybody will find that every profession will have a have a every [00:12:40] professional person will have a sense of doing wrong and being ashamed about it basically in [00:12:45] every sort of profession. So I think that that’s just the nature of it.

Speaker1: But the problem with the problem with dentistry [00:12:50] per se, unlike, say, being a lawyer, is it’s personal because you’re actually doing [00:12:55] this treatment on this particular person and you’ve caused them this, or they accuse you of causing them this [00:13:00] particular harm. So it’s very direct. And you don’t have the the sort of corporate [00:13:05] response as you would, you know, you make a complaint to a hotel or a restaurant [00:13:10] or a, or an airline. Well, it doesn’t really matter who the pilot was, who the air hostess was, who’s [00:13:15] surging behind the counter. It’s a corporate response. So you don’t never feel that it’s you [00:13:20] directly, whereas here it’s you personally. It’s directly you. They’ll they’ll use your name in the complaint [00:13:25] and it’s going to be your treatment, your action, your words that they’re challenging. And I think that’s why it’s it’s [00:13:30] so personal. That’s why it gets to people so much as a, as a dentist. Because [00:13:35] on a human level, you go into work to do the best you can. Nobody goes into work saying, [00:13:40] you know, today I’m going to have a I’m just going to treat everybody badly. You go in, you know, with [00:13:45] that diligence that that feeling of wanting to do good. And, and I think [00:13:50] in a sense, the one of the, the joys of, [00:13:55] of that is the flip side of it because, because you, you want to go to do work [00:14:00] and do the best you can. But when it goes wrong, you take it very personally, um, because [00:14:05] you didn’t want to do wrong, you didn’t want it to go wrong, and it has gone wrong. So you take it very, very personally in a way [00:14:10] that probably I don’t even think even the medical professionals will, will take it as badly [00:14:15] as we do.

Speaker1: And we often talk about this concept of, of the the third [00:14:20] victim or the second victim. The third, the third victim is probably going to be you, you know, you, [00:14:25] you, you suffer as a direct result of that complaint or that error. And even if they don’t complain, [00:14:30] you know, you walk home and you’re thinking, oh my God, that’s me. I can’t believe I did this. I can’t [00:14:35] believe I missed that. And and every one of us, anybody who’s doing dentistry will have done that and have that [00:14:40] sinking feeling of, I’ve done something wrong. And even if the patient doesn’t complain, even if anybody [00:14:45] finds out about it, you have that sinking feeling. And I think that’s that. A that makes you a professional. [00:14:50] It makes you a caring professional. You’re not burnt out. It means you still care, which is great in itself. But [00:14:55] it’s but it is one of the the real challenges of being a clinician and dealing [00:15:00] directly with patients, and also the fact that it happens in real time, you know, it’s [00:15:05] the patient is not anaesthetised. Um, you’re they’re, you know, they’re not under general anaesthetic. [00:15:10] You can do what you like in the general anaesthetic and it goes wrong. Well, there’s no panic. There’s no stress here. You know, [00:15:15] instantly something goes wrong. They know you know it. And I think that’s that’s why it’s [00:15:20] it’s so challenging as a, as a profession when something goes wrong. Because, because it is [00:15:25] ever so personal.

Speaker3: I mean, it’s very interesting because I do another podcast at mental health [00:15:30] podcast around dentistry and um, this question of, [00:15:35] you know, suicide. Why? Why dentists? Why, why not brain surgeons? [00:15:40] And I was talking to my, um, my cousin, he’s a he’s an eye surgeon. [00:15:45] And we were talking about this question of the live patient, and [00:15:50] he was saying how much more tired he is, how much more drained he is. And [00:15:55] the patient said it’s an LA compared to if it’s a GA situation [00:16:00] and it’s something that we take for granted. But the cumulative stress [00:16:05] of that live patient and the thing you’re saying about taking things personally, I [00:16:10] probably the the best legal advice of Dental legal advice [00:16:15] I’ve heard in my whatever years is not to take complaints [00:16:20] personally, but it’s inevitable. I mean, what you just described is inevitable, [00:16:25] and in fact, even worse than the situation that you described is when you really feel like you did your very [00:16:30] best and the patient thinks you didn’t, and your patient, you know, the patient’s got it [00:16:35] wrong, but you did your very best. And and now your livelihood is on the line and all those things. Right? [00:16:40] Yeah. Um, I think, on the other hand, the question of why are we not sort of more [00:16:45] united? Do you agree with me that sometimes under the guise of patient’s [00:16:50] best interests, we’re particularly nasty to each other, you know, because [00:16:55] we’ve got that sort of that cover of we’re doing this, we’re talking we’re having this conversation for the patient. It’s [00:17:00] not, you know, that’s the cover that we’re under. And so we can just be as nasty as we like because [00:17:05] because we’re caring so much for our patients. Yeah.

Speaker1: It’s a concept. Yeah I think so. And [00:17:10] yeah. And yeah, you could do because you’re saying, well, the reason you put [00:17:15] something up on our Instagram and somebody criticised it and you say, well, the reason I’m saying [00:17:20] this is because I don’t think you’ve done the best for that patient. And you’re not asking the patient’s best interests, which [00:17:25] is which is interesting because I’m not quite sure whose best interest some of these things are founded [00:17:30] in, you know, but but, but picking up this thing about stress and one of the other things I find what I, [00:17:35] what I, what I think is also particularly challenging is something my, my son mentioned the other day. [00:17:40] He says, how is it that you can be? He says, it’s really tiring [00:17:45] being nice to people all day. Yeah, okay. And I thought, actually there’s an interesting concept, he says, because I [00:17:50] just go to work, you know, if I have a bad day or a bad day, you know, I can sit behind my [00:17:55] computer, whatever. But you, dad, you’ve got to be nice to every single person. And if you’ve had if you’ve [00:18:00] done something bad, if something’s not gone quite right, you’ve got an ex patient’s coming, you know, do come in. [00:18:05] Have a seat. It’s a wonderful. And or you’re running late and you have to you have to slow [00:18:10] down even more.

Speaker1: So uh, you know, you’re running 15 minutes late. They know that that you’re [00:18:15] trying to rush them and you say, no, have a seat. How’s your grandchildren? How are the kids? How was your holiday? And you, [00:18:20] you’re an actor. You’re playing this game. And it’s hard. It’s hard work particularly, [00:18:25] you know, we talk about this thing about mental stress and and, you know, having time out because we [00:18:30] say you should be doing two things. One, celebrate the success. So when something goes really well, you fitted [00:18:35] the crowd patients really happy. And they walk out and you’re fantastic and you think, right, next, next patient [00:18:40] come in, you’re thinking, no chance to even absorb that and enjoy that moment. Basically with with [00:18:45] the staff or the flip side when something doesn’t go quite, quite right. Not catastrophic, but [00:18:50] it’s difficult. It’s difficult extraction. You’re stressed, you’re anxious, and you’re now running late and the next patient comes in, you [00:18:55] just got a big smile on your face, and you’ve got to do it all over again. And it’s I was talking to [00:19:00] somebody. They say the doctors that the medical students are now looking [00:19:05] at seeing has anybody done their A level has done acting okay. And [00:19:10] I thought that was an interesting concept because actually you’re going to be a pretty good actor. Yeah. You know as a, as a clinician [00:19:15] because it because you’ve got to you’ve almost got to subjugate your own personality, [00:19:20] your own your own views because you know, you know, somebody says, oh, I [00:19:25] hate the Tories.

Speaker1: Yeah. The Tories are terrible. Next patient comes in I hate the Labour Party. Yeah, yeah. The Labour Party is terrible [00:19:30] basically. And you’re thinking, right, okay. I don’t want to have an argument with you. We’re just we’re just going to run this particular [00:19:35] thing. And people have very strong views. They don’t know what our views are yet. They’ll, they’ll they’ll express their [00:19:40] views and you’ve got to stay up. Yeah yeah, yeah that’s fine. That’s fine. So I think it’s, it is, [00:19:45] it’s and I think it’s that challenging nature we started at the beginning talking about, you know, what makes [00:19:50] a good dentist. What makes a good dentist is that ability to be a good actor, but also be [00:19:55] empathetic. But you know, but but have that those communication skills and it’s not necessarily about [00:20:00] and actually being being able to cope with that, that that sort of constant [00:20:05] being in the limelight. Um, with those patients, uh, you’re almost being a, being [00:20:10] an actor on a stage, but the stage is just you in that patient and also your nurse, your [00:20:15] nurse is also privy to all your errors and all your your mishaps as well. [00:20:20]

Speaker3: I think, you know, having having left dentistry that or clinical dentistry, I think now [00:20:25] for me, it’s 12 years ago. It’s the thing I miss the most is those conversations. [00:20:30] I mean, it could be a big part of the reason why I do a pod is because [00:20:35] I want to have conversations with people in my office. I’m in my office right now in my office. It’s [00:20:40] it’s the same. It’s the same group of people. Much as I love them, it’s the same group of people [00:20:45] continuously. And it’s so weird because when you when you’re a dentist, [00:20:50] humans are kind of in the way of you doing doing the work. Yeah, [00:20:55] but it’s only when you stop that you realise the bits that you really miss. [00:21:00]

Speaker1: It’s spot on. Absolutely. I mean, there was, there was. I think it was, uh. Must have been [00:21:05] two years ago now. I had a diagnosed neuralgic amyotrophy, basically. So my [00:21:10] hand basically just froze. Uh, one Monday and that that hand was slipping out of my hand and, [00:21:15] and basically as a, as a neuralgic amyotrophy of of [00:21:20] of of a nerve, basically. So, um, so I had to stop work and I’d stopped work [00:21:25] for in the end, it was about 7 or 8 weeks, and there was a possibility that I wouldn’t be able to go back to work [00:21:30] again. And it was a catastrophic not not for any other reason that actually it [00:21:35] wasn’t about the money because because the practice was running perfectly well. Um, there’s no issue necessarily I could [00:21:40] carry on working at the indemnity, so. But I’d be stopping till then. So the two things that affect me [00:21:45] most was the potentially the forced retirement of suddenly saying, right, you’re not working anymore. [00:21:50] And that wasn’t your decision. It was nature’s way of saying stop. And the other thing was actually a conversation. [00:21:55] I, I, my, my wife had come back. First of all, she’d say, I saw your patient, which is always a bad thing to say when you [00:22:00] say, well, so what, what did I do wrong then? And she said, well, why were you doing x, Y and z? And, and [00:22:05] and what I missed most was the conversation.

Speaker1: She was chatting about the patients. Um, started by the [00:22:10] practice. And I thought, you know what? I missed that. What I miss most was actually this conversation with the patient, [00:22:15] the chat, the interaction. And I’m stuck at home here, basically just looking at the four walls. [00:22:20] And that’s what, you know. And it was just like with Covid and people stuck and thinking, actually, when all our staff [00:22:25] came back after Covid, they said, I’m so glad to be back. Back here working. My husband [00:22:30] or wife is is still at home, but I love coming in. And it was just it’s the conversation. It’s a human contact. [00:22:35] And and yes, it may be stressful, but one thing and I think people probably [00:22:40] underestimate just how powerful that a human interaction is [00:22:45] to your own wellbeing. Because, you know, I come home and I say to my wife, oh, guess what? You know, I was chatting to [00:22:50] this person about this, this and said, oh, you know, be a good place to go on holiday. They’ve mentioned this place to that place. [00:22:55] You’re thinking, oh my goodness me, or such and such is happened and you’re thinking, right, and that’s, that’s a conversation. [00:23:00] And that’s the beauty of that human interaction. I think we, we underestimated our peril.

Speaker3: I [00:23:05] it’s interesting, I’ve had that situation too, where I treated my wife’s [00:23:10] list of patients when she took maternity. And what I found really interesting was the [00:23:15] conversations I was having with her patients were completely different to the ones she was having. [00:23:20] And you take it for granted that, you know, you get the same thing from the same [00:23:25] patient. So Mr. Smith, he’s a lovely man or whatever it is, [00:23:30] but totally different. Like she’d been seeing these patients for eight years, and I was talking [00:23:35] to them about questions she’d never asked before. Yeah, it really is. I [00:23:40] don’t know, I don’t want to say it’s the best bit of dentistry because there’s there’s loads of dentists who love the other part. [00:23:45] Right. The Meccano piece, uh, bless him, Lewis McKenzie always used to tell me about [00:23:50] the pleasure he used to get from just matrixing something correctly, [00:23:55] you know, just just doing that and, you know, just doing a very simple mo composite [00:24:00] and how much pleasure he would get from that. So, you know, there’s different areas of dentistry. [00:24:05] Um, but for me, definitely that, that social side, definitely the most important one. Let’s get let’s [00:24:10] get to um, darker questions. I’ve really been looking forward [00:24:15] to asking you about clinical errors, legal problems that you’ve [00:24:20] had. What’s been your most difficult patient?

Speaker1: Me personally.

Speaker3: As a dentist.

Speaker1: Yeah. [00:24:25] Yeah I the, the clinic I have I had I’ve had a claim [00:24:30] and I’ve actually used it in a couple of presentations basically. And the [00:24:35] what it was, was basically was a, I prescribed penicillin to [00:24:40] an allergic patient. Penicillin. Uh, Perkins alleged penicillin, basically. And, you know, I’ve [00:24:45] gone through it so many times in the past, but essentially in my own head, what happened? But it [00:24:50] was a classic. Patients in pain squeezed in and gave some antibiotics. [00:24:55] You needed a bit of swelling, gave some antibiotics, prescribed it on a Wednesday. And [00:25:00] I get it. I go in on Saturday morning for my for my clinic and it’s [00:25:05] 8:45. And the receptionist says to me, oh, you need to phone [00:25:10] up Mr. Smith. You saw Mrs. Smith on Wednesday. You, Mr. Smith, wants to talk to you. Uh, his wife’s [00:25:15] in hospital. She’s in ICU. Um, he wants to know, uh, what [00:25:20] you’ve given him. He’s not going to sue you, but he wants to know. And I’m thinking this is a great line. At [00:25:25] 8:45 on a Saturday morning, I haven’t seen any [00:25:30] patients. And I’m thinking. Right, uh, that’s just what I need to hear, basically. So so I said, right, [00:25:35] okay, what’s the patient? Let me have a good look. And I think I did good mathematics, actually. Hang on a sec. [00:25:40] Uh, they’re allergic, so why why I didn’t give them penicillin. So. [00:25:45] So anyway, they so I sent the patient back up, uh, looked at it and said, right. Okay. Really [00:25:50] sorry to hear about your wife.

Speaker1: What? It’s gone. She’s nice to you. Um, so she so sorry [00:25:55] I gave it on the Monday. So? So she says she had a rash, came out with a rash. They [00:26:00] thought it was meningitis, so they. They’d give. They’d been treating it as meningitis. And I said, okay, it’s fine. [00:26:05] And I said, so I said yes, I did give her a penicillin. She’s obviously alleged penicillin. And I’ve [00:26:10] looked at the records and she did tell me she’s allergic to penicillin on our notes, so I don’t know why I did it. I’m really, really sorry. [00:26:15] It’s my fault. Okay. Um. And he says, well, not really your fault. I just it’s probably my [00:26:20] fault. I said, why is your fault? He said, well, because I know she’s allergic. Penicillin. So when you gave it, I should have checked it. I said, well, [00:26:25] not your problem, it’s my problem. So I said, well, uh, and he says, well, I said [00:26:30] possibly, you know, the, the pharmacist, but it’s, you know, I wrote the prescriptions is my problem. Is that okay? That’s fine, [00:26:35] I said, but you know, he said, but also he said, but he says interestingly, he says the um, we [00:26:40] knew she was allegedly penicillin, that the, um, the hospital’s given a penicillin. I said, sorry, [00:26:45] well, they’ve given a penicillin because they think it’s meningitis. I said, well, what are they doing? Will they be giving [00:26:50] a I.V. penicillin? I’m thinking, hang on a second. I said, I’m gonna check this. This is so. [00:26:55]

Speaker1: I said, don’t they know she’s alleged penicillin? He said, well, it is on the records, but I don’t think [00:27:00] so. I’m thinking, right. Okay. So this is this is interesting. I said, well, I’ll, I’ll take full responsibility for it. And [00:27:05] so, so on the Monday we’ve changed our system. So it’s [00:27:10] on all the records. If anybody’s on penicillin or water or anything else, there’s a pop up note. Whatever. We [00:27:15] had a meeting, we discussed it. Um, we had a we had a incident report, [00:27:20] you know, twice around the the practice meeting, etc., etc. so fine, I’m not going to happen again. [00:27:25] And that was the last. So then about two months, about uh, [00:27:30] 4 or 5 weeks later, I wrote to him, explained everything, explained what we’ve done, explained why it had happened, [00:27:35] um, why it wasn’t gonna happen in the future, etc., etc. and about it was all silent. About a month later he wrote back [00:27:40] and said, it’s a thank you for your letters. Been a bit of a bit of a nightmare journey. She’s okay. She’s better [00:27:45] now. Thank you very much. But if you hadn’t admitted, if you hadn’t said, if you hadn’t taken responsibility [00:27:50] for it, I would have taken it further. Okay. So. Okay. Interesting. Fantastic. Uh, so that [00:27:55] was fine. And, you know, you know, and I think somebody said to me, did you contact your defence [00:28:00] organisation said, well, not really, because I knew what I was going to do. And the answer was I had to be open, I had to be open.

Speaker1: I’d be honest, [00:28:05] had to be truthful, told the patient, and there’s no point hiding out, going to admit it without any shadow of a doubt [00:28:10] that I’d made the error. But the and they said, oh, well, he says, well, the GDC [00:28:15] would also want you to do exactly what I’ve done, because and in the end, if [00:28:20] it ever came to GDC case, would they would my fitness to practice be impaired? The answer is no, because I’ve [00:28:25] learned from it. It won’t happen again. Repetition is very unlikely. Your current fitness practice will be impaired. [00:28:30] So I was worried about the GDC. Was I worried about it saying possibly as it happened, nothing [00:28:35] happened. Four months later I did get a claim. Okay from that, from the from the parents, [00:28:40] from the wife. Basically claim for whatever made a claim of about well [00:28:45] started at 20 grand basically and um for hospitalisation. And I thought actually, you know what, what’s [00:28:50] happened here? They’ve been at a dinner party. Somebody mentioned, you know what? I was [00:28:55] in hospital. She’s quite ill. Why? Because the dentist gave her penicillin. But what did you do about [00:29:00] it or nothing? He apologised. I wouldn’t do that. Hang on a sec. You better sue him. He’s already [00:29:05] admitted it. Go and sue him. So they did. Basically they. They sued. But. But interestingly enough, I [00:29:10] was a dental practice at the time and said, you know this is very interesting. I. Before we settle this claim, [00:29:15] I need to see the hospital records.

Speaker1: Get this close to the records. We’ll see what’s going on. And they had. They’d actually given [00:29:20] her IV penicillin. Okay. When she was. When she was. The reason [00:29:25] why she ended up in it was because they’d given her the, the the penicillin. Obviously, I’d given her penicillin [00:29:30] as well, but but they’d given it to our IV. So. So she’s critically ill as a result of [00:29:35] them and, and I think and and I said, right. Okay. We do need to point out to them we’ll [00:29:40] settle the case because I triggered the whole thing. She wouldn’t be in hospital in the first place. It wasn’t for me, but [00:29:45] but it was compounded subsequently by what the hospital did. So we said, okay, [00:29:50] we reduce the claim down. She she got £10,000 for it. She was just happy and that was the end of it. But but but [00:29:55] the the abiding memory for me is, is obviously making that mistake. And one of the [00:30:00] things I’m really passionate about is, is a we’ve got to learn from the mistakes, these things going to happen. [00:30:05] People make mistakes. People don’t do these things deliberately, but also the fact that I’d like [00:30:10] to be able to still be working in practice, to still have that connection with [00:30:15] our members, to say, you know, because often people say, well, it’s okay for you to talk about record keeping and [00:30:20] how good it should be. Well, you’re not you’re not in practice. Well, if I’m in practice, I’m still working [00:30:25] in a practice.

Speaker1: I still do NHS work. So I’m with you and I understand what’s going on. So I can be pragmatic with you, [00:30:30] but equally so I can be equally critical when you’ve done something really stupid because [00:30:35] it’s not really something that’s a reasonable dentist would do. So I think [00:30:40] it’s that that connection that allows me to to do that and hopefully [00:30:45] be a bit more empathetic to people’s situation, because I know I’ve been there and lots [00:30:50] of people will say, actually, you know what? I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t knowing what you do, [00:30:55] I wouldn’t I would have given up ages ago. And actually, I think because, you know, [00:31:00] you often can see the whole thing rolling out in front of you. You think, I know, I know where this is going [00:31:05] to end. You know, when that happened, I think, right, this is what I need to do to stop it going any further. Because because [00:31:10] this is going to if, unless, unless I do something now, it’s going to roll on and roll on, roll on. If I, if I’m [00:31:15] if I’m not honest, if I’m not open, if I’m not truthful, it’s just going to get worse. [00:31:20] Um, let me suffer the consequences ultimately. But let me just do something now. And I think when [00:31:25] people are because they don’t know the potential consequence, they get really fearful [00:31:30] and very closed and then and then get more trapped in [00:31:35] their way of thinking. Because thinking, oh, if I do this or I say this and I apologise, it’s just going to get worse, it’s going to get worse, going [00:31:40] to get worse.

Speaker1: I’m not going to do it. And I remember, you know, even in our own practice, um, a [00:31:45] patient was she was irrigating her pocket. Periodontal pocket, but was [00:31:50] given was given hypochlorite instead of instead of corsodyl because the [00:31:55] nurse is the nurse wasn’t wasn’t used to that surgery. Walked in and handed a prefilled syringe [00:32:00] which would normally prefilled syringes anymore. A prefilled syringe, which is actually hypochlorite she injected [00:32:05] into the pocket burning sensation and the dentist realised what had gone wrong. [00:32:10] And then the patient’s. What did he do? Said, well, yeah, don’t worry about it. It’ll be okay. What have you done? What [00:32:15] have you checked so well, if I tell you, you’d be more upset thinking, why did you say that? You should. [00:32:20] You should have just said it’s. You know, we picked up the wrong syringe. It’s it’s it’s hypochlorites [00:32:25] the bleaching agent. But, you know, it’ll be okay. Don’t worry. And the mystery and the subterfuge [00:32:30] made even worse because she was terrified as a as a young dentist, you think, oh my God, whatever I’ve [00:32:35] done, I’ve made a mistake. I can’t admit to the mistake. The answer is it is a terrible thing. It’s very [00:32:40] hard to admit to a mistake. But, you know, if you’re going to have to, you’re going to have [00:32:45] to fess up at some point. You may as well just do it now, basically. So I think that’s that’s the challenge, I.

Speaker3: Think, to your [00:32:50] earlier point about, you know, patients who have had injury [00:32:55] needing compensation, I think in your case there that that that’s fine. Right? [00:33:00] That £10,000, you know, there was there was injury there. But before you realise about [00:33:05] the hospital. Hiv and, uh, penicillin. [00:33:10] Did you suffer with shame?

Speaker1: I did, I [00:33:15] did because even more shame.

Speaker3: Because of who you are or or not.

Speaker1: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Because, [00:33:20] you know, it’s you know, you see those things all the time. You’re thinking, right, I shouldn’t make a mistake. [00:33:25] And then you go home to your wife, who’s also a dentist, thinking, so why did you do that? Okay, [00:33:30] okay, I don’t I don’t I don’t need you to criticise me as well. And you say, right, okay. [00:33:35] So did you not look at your notes? Did you not look at the medical street, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know I should have done all that. And [00:33:40] it’s, it’s even more obviously easy to stop. Um, so which makes it makes the [00:33:45] mistake so much more stupid. And you see. So why did I do that? And it’s just things [00:33:50] in a rush. You don’t check it. And, you know, we don’t have a proper process. And so, so some of [00:33:55] this some a lot of the errors in this is a classic. Atul Gawande talked about this checklist [00:34:00] manifesto where you actually you actually have checklist processes. So so [00:34:05] most of what we, we talk about at PD is, you know, if [00:34:10] you have the right process in place, you will risk manage a lot of these things out.

Speaker1: So if we actually had [00:34:15] a pop up note that said, you know, pink pop up little pink pop up notes now for medical, [00:34:20] uh, medical interactions, you’d see that and you’re thinking, right, I’d see it. Uh, the [00:34:25] nurse would see it and he’d say, are you sure you’re going to prescribe this or whatever? So there wasn’t a system. So [00:34:30] there is a system now, and every time something goes wrong, we respond, [00:34:35] or the profession ought to be responding to actually make sure we learn from [00:34:40] our errors. And that’s kind of this, this whole thing, you know, NHS are interred. Jason Wong’s interred about, [00:34:45] um, about, uh, safety, culture and learning from mistakes. We try desperately [00:34:50] to, as a profession, health care profession, to try and collate all these different problems [00:34:55] and errors, to create solutions which the airline industry does very well and we just do very badly. [00:35:00] So, you know, every one of the mistakes that, that, uh, that has happened [00:35:05] in my practice, I’ve seen over is all possible happen could be happening again and again and again. And people just [00:35:10] don’t put the systems in place, um, to stop it happening. Pretty true.

Speaker3: So I [00:35:15] want to get on to your practice, the story of that. So is [00:35:20] this. Am I right in thinking that? Did I read that this is the only practice you’ve ever worked at?

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:35:25] well, I pretty well I mean, I did, I worked as an associate in other [00:35:30] practice, belonged to the same guy. So when I, when I qualified, I was working as a foundation [00:35:35] dentist in his practice and he owned three practices. So I worked in all three [00:35:40] practice as, as as a VTE and then worked as an associate [00:35:45] at the end of the year, worked as an associate in his practice. And then in that literary [00:35:50] year later he worked in practice. In the year I was doing VTE, he wanted to sell it and he said, did you want to buy [00:35:55] it? Not in my year. So it was literally a couple of years later, so qualified [00:36:00] in finished my in 1990 and then bought it in January [00:36:05] of 93. Um, so were you.

Speaker3: Already married at this [00:36:10] point or. No.

Speaker1: Uh, we, uh, no, I was married in, uh, 1992, [00:36:15] and, and so we bought the well, uh, Anne was [00:36:20] working at the at that actually, she was working at the practice as well, basically at, uh, the, [00:36:25] uh, his practice basically. So the so but we bought the practice, [00:36:30] so bought the practice. Um, we exchanged on the practice on the same day we exchanged on our house. [00:36:35] So it’s a pretty stressful week basically. But but it was um, uh, but at that time it was. [00:36:40] So he sold his share, uh, to me. And there was an existing partner there, Melanie [00:36:45] Wainwright and Shadow Practice in Chelmsford. Eventually she sold that to me. So yeah. So [00:36:50] start off as a as a two therapy practice. But yeah. And funny enough, we celebrated [00:36:55] our 30th anniversary of buying the practice this year earlier this year. So we bought [00:37:00] this 92 not last year. Um, and 93. So last year we was [00:37:05] 30 years and I, and I was saying to somebody saying to somebody, I said, well, if I’d known, [00:37:10] uh, if somebody said to me, you’re going to leave, uh, dental school and you’re going to [00:37:15] stay in the same four walls for the next 30 years, uh, what do you think? [00:37:20] I’d say that’s completely mad. I’m not going to do that. Um, and there I am, standing in those same four walls, [00:37:25] look out the window onto, uh, onto the Woodford tube station. So, yeah, it’s, uh, it’s a it’s a strange, [00:37:30] strange sensation. Strange sensation.

Speaker3: But, uh, you know, I think Cliff talks about it a lot about [00:37:35] being in the same practice for years where you see your own mistakes. Um, and, [00:37:40] I mean, in 30 years, you’ve seen same family, grandchildren and so [00:37:45] forth. Yeah. Um, but but what I’m more interested in is the sort [00:37:50] of the business story, um, okay. What two, two surgery, NHS [00:37:55] practice, was it?

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: And now it’s the same site. Is it [00:38:00] that the same surgery. So what have you done built out and under and up. No African [00:38:05] thinking. Absolutely. Exactly.

Speaker1: So we were on the first floor, [00:38:10] um, and we were renting, paying rent to HSBC. Uh, so [00:38:15] HSBC were downstairs, uh, they had downstairs and they had, they had the basement, which [00:38:20] is the, uh, the safes and the safe deposit boxes. And so we rented off them and then [00:38:25] eventually they, they sold up, um, and then leased it [00:38:30] back off us. So all the banks at that time were, were going, coming off the high street. So [00:38:35] Barclays, NatWest, they’ve all left, they’ve all left. And so what they did was they basically went [00:38:40] to auction, went to a terrifying auction and got the property, [00:38:45] and then they leased it back basically off us. So so they carried on it. So we [00:38:50] got the rent from them. And then eventually three, about four years ago now they [00:38:55] said, right, we’re out here. Basically gave us three months notice and just left. Um, so we end this in this situation [00:39:00] of should we, should we rent out somebody else, uh, and just stay up on [00:39:05] the first? We’re now in the first and second floor. So what we’ve done was so interestingly. So we’re in the first floor, [00:39:10] but we, we, uh, classic, you know, uh, except by stealth, [00:39:15] uh, moved up to the first floor, which is, which was, which was a flat, which is the flat I lived in when [00:39:20] I first moved it, when I joined the practice, which is also one of the main attractions [00:39:25] of the practice, when I applied there, because it meant I didn’t have to go home again after university. [00:39:30] So that was the main attraction. So lived there, moved in with all my mates and then [00:39:35] um, eventually we got married and moved in there and stayed there for about 3 or 4 months before [00:39:40] we bought the house.

Speaker1: But uh, so then eventually converted that into more [00:39:45] surgeries and then so the first and second floor surgeries. And so we had this situation of, you know, [00:39:50] we’re now got this massive building. What are we going to do with it? Do we? [00:39:55] And so in the end we said, okay, there’s nothing more to do. We’re going to have to just go downstairs, gut [00:40:00] the gut downstairs, gut the basement. Uh, and we just have to work out of that. So it [00:40:05] went from four surgeries to seven surgeries in literally one fell swoop, basically. [00:40:10] So it was, um, a big, a big undertaking in terms of [00:40:15] what we do in terms of business, because one of the discussions that I had with the accountants. Uh, was [00:40:20] basically said it’s just going to be a higher growth but more hassle [00:40:25] and probably not much more profit, I think. Okay, well that’s interesting. That’s that. And he’s [00:40:30] absolutely right. But it wasn’t it wasn’t right about the profit because because obviously it worked out okay. Once you’ve [00:40:35] made the investment to to by the by the by the building, you’ve got obviously no rent and [00:40:40] no rent, rent issues. And you can now do exactly what you want to do. So we’ll put central heating in. [00:40:45] We put the whole lot air conditioning, which we would never have done if it wasn’t our building. So it is a [00:40:50] very high respect in terms of the comfort of the place.

Speaker1: And you have control over that. [00:40:55] And I think so. So you know, and then over the but what is what is becoming [00:41:00] more difficult is we then after or during Covid we, we switched [00:41:05] to um, the sessions basically to. So we’ve now so the practice is now open [00:41:10] from seven in the morning till eight in the evening. Um, so it’s now very busy. But [00:41:15] you to matter to, to staff that number of that, that hours [00:41:20] of surgery. You we now have 65 members of staff okay. On one site. So [00:41:25] it’s it is astronomically difficult. So my wife so Ann does an awful lot [00:41:30] basically. So the success of that practice is, is entirely down to for the last ten years because [00:41:35] it you know, it’s not something she spent a huge amount of time. She is the detailed person and [00:41:40] does a huge amount of work to keep that place or keep that place going. We’ve got got two practice managers, [00:41:45] and that’s still not enough because you still need sort of, you know, oversight of all the different people. [00:41:50] And we’ve now sort of moved into sort of specialists and etc., etc., which is kind of the next big thing [00:41:55] we’re trying to do, make sure we’ve got some specialists, um, or got a specialist, um, [00:42:00] evening in a few weeks time. We’ve got a CT scan, we’ve got itero, intraoral [00:42:05] scanners and stuff like so, so, so that, you know, it’s it’s an undertaking in itself, [00:42:10] but it’s worked out because it’s a family practice. You know, people come back again and [00:42:15] again and again. Um, how.

Speaker3: Did you feel these other chairs?

Speaker1: Um, [00:42:20] it’s just organically because because, you know, we we’ve done it [00:42:25] for 20 years, and often the foundation dentist would [00:42:30] stay. If we like them, we keep them on and then we build another, put them into another surgery [00:42:35] and off we go again. And so one of the beauties of the practice largely is built [00:42:40] by built on the backs of people who understand the values, the [00:42:45] what we believe in. So the PhDs arrive, they understand the system, [00:42:50] they understand how we operate, and they stay because they like it. And and sometimes people coming [00:42:55] from a different practice just don’t get the ethos. And it takes them some time to understand what we’re up to while [00:43:00] we’re doing things. We’re not actually about generating shedloads of money off patients because our views very much, [00:43:05] they’re going to be for the long terme. We want to work with you for the next ten, 15, 20 years. We don’t need to [00:43:10] sell you a shedload of stuff in the first first visit. And sometimes dentists don’t get that. [00:43:15] And there’s a there’s a bit of frustration for us and for them to say it’s not how we work. Basically [00:43:20] it’s a different, different mode of operation here. So and, you know, they, they uh, the [00:43:25] practice is built up on, you know, I think for most practices, every single practice in the [00:43:30] country, it’s reputation, every business, it’s reputation, it’s trust. Uh, those are sort of two words [00:43:35] that most companies, businesses, it’s all about trust and reputations. And as long as you [00:43:40] you do your best to maintain that trust, the reputation will follow.

Speaker3: Basically, I think [00:43:45] look, the the model that you’re doing is I’ve seen some of the most successful [00:43:50] practices I’ve ever come across are that model because 65 [00:43:55] humans I mean there’s that could have been you could have been [00:44:00] it could have been a vanity metric here of eight practices. Yeah, [00:44:05] could have been. I mean, there’s many practices with 7 or 8 people [00:44:10] and running it 7 to 8. I accept that that’s [00:44:15] a HR nightmare, because you’ve got to persuade one whole [00:44:20] group of people to work till 8 p.m.. Yeah, but which actually I think that would be one of those [00:44:25] times personally. Um, but I hear often young dentists, I say I want a chain [00:44:30] of practices or something. Actually, if I, if I was going to do it myself, [00:44:35] this building that you can expand, it seems like a much more [00:44:40] efficient way of delivering volume.

Speaker1: Yeah. Because you’ve just got [00:44:45] because all you’re going to do is you’re going to you’re going to replicate those same systems [00:44:50] again and again and again. And actually that doesn’t necessarily generate more profit because because the profit [00:44:55] comes from the, uh, from the from the people doing the treatment. Basically, [00:45:00] it doesn’t have to be in a different site. And because and all you’ve got is more hassle, um, with these different sites, with the [00:45:05] different, um, managers, uh, different managers, different configuration, different type of patients. And so [00:45:10] we know the type of patients we attract, the sort of patients we want to want to keep. And, and [00:45:15] I you know, we often say you get the patients you deserve because if the patients are like [00:45:20] you and they trust you, they’ll refer their friends. And their friends are probably nice people, too. So you [00:45:25] get that build up of patients basically. And and I think, you know, that’s that’s probably [00:45:30] the most exciting thing about it is actually seeing that that grow. And, you know, somebody said, oh, you know, [00:45:35] you know, when are you going to retire? When are you going to sell the practice? And I’m thinking, actually, I’m not so sure I do want to [00:45:40] retire. I’m not sure what I could do with my time retiring, basically, but also the fact that we’ve [00:45:45] still got more to do.

Speaker1: I mean, we’d love to, you know, build up that the specialists and [00:45:50] and take referrals and stuff and, and I know that’s the most challenging thing to do now. Ten years [00:45:55] ago wouldn’t have been because nobody had specialists. Now everybody’s got a specialist operating [00:46:00] out of their practice, their part time. So so having a even a referral practice is challenging. But [00:46:05] because everybody now has a specialist coming to their practice, so us trying to attract [00:46:10] business from elsewhere is not is not going to be straightforward. But we’ve got enough patients of our [00:46:15] own to generate what we need to do. So our orthodontist is busy. He’s booked up 3 or 4 months. [00:46:20] The endodontist is busy, periodontist is busy. So so they are busy in their own right, [00:46:25] and you’d like them to be more busy. But you know, it’s it’s working off the back of our own patients. So [00:46:30] yeah. So you know as a model and the, the other concept for us is it’s, it is still [00:46:35] a mixed NHS and private practice. Um, and we’ve survived probably the best [00:46:40] part of 3 or 4 recessions over the last 30 years because we’re an NHS practice and people still [00:46:45] need their teeth doing.

Speaker1: And and for me it’s just a personal thing I do want to [00:46:50] give. I do want to give back to to the NHS that it has provided me with a great living [00:46:55] and great income, but and a good lifestyle. But, you know, and when I talk [00:47:00] to, uh, lots of people in our practice plan, they’ll be on various panels and they say, you’ve got [00:47:05] to you’ve got to move, you’ve got to move them. You know, it’s all over and thinking, yeah, I know I’m maybe [00:47:10] a bit of a dinosaur in still thinking the NHS is it’s not, it’s not functional, [00:47:15] basically. But in a sense there is. I just feel a sense of duty towards those [00:47:20] patients and some of our dentists, some of our staff members also think that actually we [00:47:25] do owe to those people. There’s lots of people that can’t afford private dentistry. They can just about afford NHS dentistry, let alone private [00:47:30] dentistry and what we can do with those patients. So and they’ve been with us for many, many years. So [00:47:35] I think there is some sense of community and wanting to be, to be part of that, that, [00:47:40] um, that, that service, that community, not just dump them all as they’re very private. [00:47:45]

Speaker3: I understand it. Um, of course I do. But [00:47:50] at the same time. I hated the third party involvement, [00:47:55] you know. Hated it. It is. I did my feet [00:48:00] and just like never again. Never do I want a third party to tell me anything. Yeah, [00:48:05] and I think the patient.

Speaker1: Yeah. And I think that’s that’s true. You know, increasingly, [00:48:10] you know, it’s the it’s the tail wagging the dog because we have so much, um, restrictions [00:48:15] because of the NHS and we’re, you know, we’re chasing udhas for the sake of chasing us. And [00:48:20] it takes up an inordinate amount of time to do those gdas to get to that, to hit that delivery, thinking, [00:48:25] why am I wasting my time doing this? So for, you know, a we can [00:48:30] spend our time seeing the seeing private patients. Um, so yeah, I think there’s, there’s a conflict in our, [00:48:35] in our own heads. Let’s.

Speaker3: Let’s imagine, for the sake of the argument that the friendly [00:48:40] Russian billionaire came and gave you $1 billion for your practice, what would [00:48:45] you do? What do you do next?

Speaker1: Uh, yeah, I’d probably. Yeah, I’d [00:48:50] what I would. I still see patients possibly, but but I mean I well, [00:48:55] the two things I’d like to carry on doing is, is this job, uh, the indemnity as this, [00:49:00] there’s so much more still to be done to get this, to get the policy wording, to get everything [00:49:05] as good as I possibly could. I’d like to, uh, I’ve been doing got back into photography [00:49:10] quite a bit, and I’ve done I’m in the middle of doing a photography diploma, um, and, [00:49:15] um, and I and I and I’ve, I’ve just been, I’ve just literally [00:49:20] taken two weeks time going to Scotland on a landscape photography workshop. I’ve just done the [00:49:25] last couple of months down to Dorset to Land’s End, Peak District, basically. [00:49:30] So, um, there’s a couple of people that follow. They do some workshops, which is great fun. Um, [00:49:35] and then and then up to Scotland, the freezing cold and north, uh, in Inverness. Yeah. [00:49:40] So I and I’d love to do that sort of stuff. I’ve trying to persuade my wife that, [00:49:45] you know, to get converting downstairs to a, to a dental surgery. So we’re not just dental studio, which [00:49:50] is. Are you. Are you kidding me? Well, how much money do you think you’re going to earn out of a out of a studio [00:49:55] in comparison to a dental chair? Okay. Fair enough. Um, so. Yeah. So that would be a [00:50:00] fun, a fun thing to do. But yeah, I think I think for me.

Speaker3: How many days do you actually, [00:50:05] uh, clinical do clinical?

Speaker1: Clinical. Two days a week. Two days. So, so the Wednesday Thursday. [00:50:10] Seven till seven. One till two in the afternoon. So seven hour days and the Wednesday seven hour days and [00:50:15] Thursday. Um, so it gives me sort of free time in three days and indemnity [00:50:20] and.

Speaker3: Clinically what’s your sort of treatments that you like to do and don’t like to do.

Speaker1: Um [00:50:25] I so increasingly I’m doing less and less invasive treatment basically. So [00:50:30] if, if somebody I could specialise in uh, lower right six buccal [00:50:35] composites quite easily basically because, because it’s going to be the simplest straightforward sort of thing. So, [00:50:40] so I, so, you know, we now have, uh, dentists who do, uh, you know, [00:50:45] difficult extraction spaces. I’m thinking. Right, what you know, and doing endo and thinking, why am I going to do [00:50:50] an endo for you privately or even on the NHS when there’s somebody in this room who could do this far [00:50:55] better? In fact, sitting over there is a microscope, you know, why am I going to? Why am I going to if I can, [00:51:00] if I can do if you can, if you allow me, if you allow this density [00:51:05] to, to work, you’d be better off. And they’ll say to me, oh, you’ve done the work before. I said, yeah, but I now have a specialist [00:51:10] in the practice who can do a far better job. You want some predictability? That’s great. So. So I’m happy to do endo [00:51:15] crowns. Bridges. Um, uh, I used to do a lot of. I [00:51:20] used to do a lot of ortho. Um, we now have an orthodontist in the practice, and so I’ve stopped doing that [00:51:25] and don’t do implants or do all surgery. And so [00:51:30] we’ve got the hygienist element of the practice is, is, is bizarre [00:51:35] because we’ve actually got we actually got I mean, we’ve got we’ve got eight hygienists in the practice. [00:51:40] Um, and there’s basically two days, there’s two, two [00:51:45] in every single day basically.

Speaker1: Um, maybe more. And it just it just worked out that way. You know, the, the [00:51:50] hygienist, uh, is a great part of the, um, the [00:51:55] health environment delivering that for the, for the patients. Patients love it. It’s working very well. [00:52:00] And and so, so building building on those foundations is, is really nice to [00:52:05] be able to work in that environment. So the hygienist services is, is is worked very well. [00:52:10] So yeah. So it’s and I think the difficulty and what that then generates [00:52:15] is you actually have specific hygienist meetings. You have specific dentist [00:52:20] meetings, you have specific nurses meetings. And so the hygienist feel as though they’re part of the [00:52:25] team. And because often the hygiene say I work in another practice, I’m on my own now. I come [00:52:30] in, I do, I do my hygiene work, I go upstairs, I do my own, uh, decontamination, [00:52:35] come downstairs and I go home. I don’t see anybody else. There is another hygienist, but we [00:52:40] never cross paths and I think so. So for them, it’s actually quite a really good, lively [00:52:45] sort of atmosphere to, for us to have hygienist meetings. Uh, and, you know, every quarter [00:52:50] and they, they get then you know, they as a, as a, as a cartel [00:52:55] if you want, they get what they want. If you tell us what you want, we’ll do it. You know, you are clinicians, [00:53:00] and you’re right. Uh, we’re more than happy to support you because you’re doing a fantastic job.

Speaker3: And what’s your involvement [00:53:05] with the practice other than the clinical? Do you do anything else or do you act more like an associate? [00:53:10]

Speaker1: Yeah. It’s. Yeah. What if I was [00:53:15] if I was generating money for myself as a as a as an associate, I’d probably just be able to afford [00:53:20] a kebab on the way home basically. Because. Because it’s not it’s not a huge because because the two [00:53:25] things. One is I end up, um, so a lot of regular patients who’ve been seeing. So there’s not a huge we’re [00:53:30] not doing a huge amount of treatment on these patients. And also, yeah, also having to pick up every so often [00:53:35] the patients who uh, the one you know not to be each attempt [00:53:40] is refused to see the patients. So inevitably they end up with me saying, right, okay, fine, I’ll see this patient. Um, and [00:53:45] so that that’s fine. And, and for me, you know, and it’s something I, I [00:53:50] never chased the money. The money, just money just came basically. So, so I kind of act as an associate, and [00:53:55] my wife does an awful lot of the and as an awful lot of the sort of the, the [00:54:00] oversight of it. Um, so I used to do that around when the kids were young. She was at home, [00:54:05] but she’s kind of taken over, uh, the vast majority. And I think that’s that is actually quite stressful for [00:54:10] her.

Speaker1: Um, because she kind of does, obviously, she does her own two days of, of clinical work. [00:54:15] Uh, and she’s also running the practice the rest of the time. She does pretty well. A lot of the stuff she’s [00:54:20] doing, she does all the wages for the associates, the other wage for the for the staff, which is a, you know, literally [00:54:25] four days every month is, is, is doing just that, basically, uh, in addition to organising [00:54:30] all the meetings and stuff. So, so I think she’s, um, you know, and I think that’s probably [00:54:35] more tiring. She actually enjoys the clinical dentistry. She’s she doesn’t want to give it up because she enjoys it so much. Um, [00:54:40] that’s the relief from, from the, the hard admin work and the running the practice. So [00:54:45] she’s really made a huge contribution that the practice wouldn’t be what it is with without her basically. So I’m kind of [00:54:50] dropping it out there and it when she says, well, you’re a useful figurehead in the practice. [00:54:55] Um, uh, but but it allows, you know, and we, we have different sort of styles [00:55:00] of managing the practice and managing those meetings. It’s also, uh, quite useful. Um, [00:55:05] so, so yeah.

Speaker3: We’re coming to the end of our time, but I want to touch on one other thing [00:55:10] before we move on to the final questions. Is this question of sort of getting involved? Yeah. [00:55:15] With stuff.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s an.

Speaker3: Active process, right? It’s not. It doesn’t [00:55:20] happen by mistake that you do all the list of things that that I listed at the beginning. It’s [00:55:25] an active process of seeking out, wanting to get your hands dirty and and I don’t know, maybe [00:55:30] maybe I’m being a bit like, uh, characterising it incorrectly, but I feel like [00:55:35] I, I’ve noticed this with, with, uh, Kenyans in particular. Um, [00:55:40] there’s a sense of community or something that everyone, you know, I’ve had several. [00:55:45] I mean, we talk about true and um, one one of my favourite episodes we’ve [00:55:50] ever done on this pod is, uh, Vishal Vishal Shah. But but tell me about that. You know, [00:55:55] because I feel like I do the opposite. I actively try and get away from boards [00:56:00] of things and.

Speaker1: Yeah, it’s. Yeah, it’s funny. I mean, I think [00:56:05] the, I suppose one of the drivers when I was a kid [00:56:10] wasn’t, it was actually it was actually the A level that did it because I realised that I had [00:56:15] to do physics, uh, for A level. But I was actually hopeless at it. And, and it was [00:56:20] this classic thing where you’d be sitting in a physics class, uh, the guy would put up the problem, basically, [00:56:25] and I’d just be reading it and somebody put their hand up and they said, they know the answer. I’m thinking, I haven’t even [00:56:30] read the question. What are you doing? Okay, so people just exceptionally bright and very good at what they do. And [00:56:35] I and I vowed, I said, all I want to do is to be good at something, to be to be good at that [00:56:40] and be known for being good at it. And my my wife is always winding me up about that because you just [00:56:45] want to be famous and I don’t want to be famous. I just want to be good at something so I can feel that actually I’ve achieved [00:56:50] something because. Because for the whole of those two years, um, uh, in those classes, [00:56:55] I just felt like a complete idiot, basically thinking, right, you know, I’m just useless. I know I’m going to fail [00:57:00] no matter how many times I’m up past papers that I know. I feel like.

Speaker3: You’re quite black and white. Like, [00:57:05] I feel like if you don’t know 100% of it, you feel like. You know none of it. Yeah, something like [00:57:10] that.

Speaker1: Yeah, that is true. Absolutely. Because because when I, when I do it, I want to be sure I’ve [00:57:15] done it well and, and get involved in it. So which is why the law degree when I did it [00:57:20] um, all these other sort of post-grad qualification, the teaching, I just have to make sure I know enough about [00:57:25] this to be confident that I can do it. But did mentoring did a whole lot, of course. Because because because [00:57:30] I didn’t want to. Part of is also thinking, I’m not going to know this unless I study about it. [00:57:35] I don’t I don’t have the discipline to just read around the subject. I know people will now rely on YouTube’s [00:57:40] and YouTube and TikTok and stuff like that, thinking it’s the same as photography. I mean, I could [00:57:45] quite easily just download a shedload of YouTube videos and watch it and learn myself [00:57:50] and teach myself. And yes, I could, but actually what I’ve what I’ve got from this formal [00:57:55] education of things diploma is actually I would never have learnt about the history of photography and [00:58:00] learnt about the origins of it and what these particular photographers have done, because it wouldn’t be part [00:58:05] of, uh, anything I undertook on YouTube.

Speaker1: But actually I’ve learnt an awful lot from it and actually got [00:58:10] there’s a discipline about learning in a sort of structured way, and that’s, that’s probably just me. In [00:58:15] order to learn those things and be confident about it, there has to be a sort of structure, structured approach to it, [00:58:20] and it’s postgraduate certificate, diploma, masters, whatever. That’s that’s just the way [00:58:25] I learn, because I can’t rely on myself to say, all right, okay, I’m going to do this and I’m just going to do this without, [00:58:30] without, without sort of, sort of some sort of formal thing. I did it, you know, rather being able [00:58:35] to did an Open University course, um, an Arts Foundation course, because I think I actually want to [00:58:40] know about this stuff, but I wanted to do in a formal way. So there’s something probably controlling it. [00:58:45] May be it may be a maybe a go and maybe a Kenyan mentality, but it certainly is something that I think, you [00:58:50] know, driven partly by my dad saying, you know, you need a bit of courtesy, you need you a bit of [00:58:55] paper. And that’s kind of probably prompted most of my sort of driving my [00:59:00] what I describe as my drive, basically.

Speaker3: How much of your identity [00:59:05] is going to feel going?

Speaker1: Yeah. Interestingly, [00:59:10] it’s because obviously I’ve married an Irish girl. Um, you’re both Catholics, [00:59:15] you were telling me, but yeah, both Catholics, um, um, you know, my [00:59:20] fairly religious sort of background, my, my, my mum’s side, there was three [00:59:25] nuns and three priests. So it’s pretty religious. On Anne’s side [00:59:30] there is, there is one nun. So it’s fairly sort of it’s not it’s not [00:59:35] rammed down our kids throats and they go to church up until they were sort of got, you know, [00:59:40] baptised commune till they were younger. And it’s up to you if you want to go to church now, we’ve set it out for you. So, so [00:59:45] there is um, in terms of being going, I think, I think I’m [00:59:50] the problem with the diaspora to go and diaspora is it’s not [00:59:55] as embedded as, say, any other sort of parts of India or Pakistan [01:00:00] or Southeast Asia, because there is a language, we hardly ever use the language. Um, so [01:00:05] there’s no sort of Konkani is the common language, but it’s never used as much as it could have been used, basically. [01:00:10] Um, so, so yeah, I think it’s I do feel I [01:00:15] could be more and the kids are obviously, you know, half Irish, half going, um, but [01:00:20] they understand both sides of it. Do they.

Speaker3: Um, to. [01:00:25] Well I’m doing.

Speaker1: She is going.

Speaker3: Go, go in Kenya. [01:00:30]

Speaker1: Uh, I think she is. And then there is, there’s a lucky for you.

Speaker3: Yeah. [01:00:35]

Speaker1: Yeah, there is. I know there is. It’s not not not a good look. Exactly. Not a good look. Exactly, [01:00:40] exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Let’s get on to our final questions. Yeah. [01:00:45] Let’s start with the fantasy dinner party. Yeah. Three guests, [01:00:50] dead or alive. Three guests. Who would you have? Okay.

Speaker1: Okay. Uh, this might sound a bit left field. [01:00:55] Um, but it’s it’s going to be Madhur Jaffrey. Okay. The the Indian [01:01:00] cook. And I’m not sure anybody else has mentioned there before. No. She’s dead. She’s dead. [01:01:05] Okay, so it’s sounds like and I think, um, partly because, well, she’s [01:01:10] going to make the dinner. It’s going to be a great dinner party because she’s great.

Speaker3: Okay. She’s gonna she’s gonna [01:01:15] cook.

Speaker1: The dinner for us, basically. Um, but there are a couple of reasons for that. One is, [01:01:20] um, my mother was an amazing cook. She’s still around, but she’s, uh, [01:01:25] she’s an she’s an amazing cook. When we, um, we arrived in England. What is interesting [01:01:30] is that. And she could turn her hand to to most things to Indian, Chinese, modern [01:01:35] European. And I kind of watched her cook, um, as she grew up. And it was I. My [01:01:40] passion for cooking comes from her, and I love cooking. Now I really well, now I do most of the sort [01:01:45] of cooking at home basically. But but but the interesting thing about, uh, Madhur [01:01:50] Jaffrey was that she was she did a BBC book back in the, [01:01:55] you know, back in the early 80s when you wouldn’t be able to find you wouldn’t find coriander, [01:02:00] you wouldn’t find any spices at all, anywhere, anywhere, anywhere in England. [01:02:05] And she actually created this sort of this whole culture of Indian food. Bbc television [01:02:10] had a book, um, called Madhur Jaffrey Indian Cooking, and then their classic [01:02:15] was Flavours of India and India. Actually, there’s, there’s funny enough was looking at it the other day [01:02:20] and there’s a huge amount of go and cooking in there, which again, you know, there’s [01:02:25] a couple of dishes, um, which are sort of pork dishes which, which was handed down from my [01:02:30] mum to me, um, which was used basically. And there’s some fantastic recipes in there. So, so that [01:02:35] was, you know, and for me, you know, this, this being an immigrant family being brought up [01:02:40] on Indian cooking is just, just great. Um, uh, she kind of made it popular. And, [01:02:45] you know, you’re now you can walk into any store and you’ll find pretty well, you can [01:02:50] find go and pastes basically go and go and food in there, which you would never have done, you know, 20, [01:02:55] 25 years ago. So, so, so, so she’s, she’s in there for partly because of my mum, [01:03:00] but partly because she’s going to make a good, good meal for us when we get there.

Speaker3: Who’s [01:03:05] your second guest?

Speaker1: Second guest. Uh, would be Frederick Forsyth. Uh, [01:03:10] he’s an author. He’s not exactly high brow, but he was kind of the the first [01:03:15] author, uh, first book that I read or first? First real book I read when [01:03:20] I was a kid. Uh, probably, uh, you know what, 11, 12 years old? He wrote that. So the the Odessa [01:03:25] file, which was this story about this guy chasing Nazi war criminals, then got me interested in [01:03:30] in the whole thing about the Holocaust was about death, a jackal. The assassination attempts on Charles [01:03:35] de Gaulle, uh, dogs of war, all these sort of classic books. And I sort of read and so I so [01:03:40] it’s a classic sort of thing. And probably one of the few authors that I’ve read 2 or 3 times who read the book a couple [01:03:45] of times when I was a kid, I probably wouldn’t have time to read books twice again, but I did then, [01:03:50] and that sort of got me into. So he his his genre was very much weaving [01:03:55] fiction through real life people. So the whole thing about The Day of the Jackal was Charles [01:04:00] de Gaulle had had several assassination attempts on him, and he just weaved this sort of fictional [01:04:05] character that was going to attempt an assassination on him, again, based on sort of meticulous research. And [01:04:10] I kind of got. So the writing is fantastic. It’s not a, you know, it’s not a high [01:04:15] brow author. But actually, that got me into reading, got me into, uh, into writing, wanting to write myself. [01:04:20] Um, and that’s kind of in a sense, the that whole connection with, [01:04:25] um, with English came from that. And, and obviously obviously they [01:04:30] were O-levels and A-levels and did Thomas Hardy and all the other stuff.

Speaker1: But but of course I it would be a good guess. [01:04:35] And, and for me, the, the reason why I ended up at Dental protection was because [01:04:40] I wrote an awful lot when I, as soon as I, um, was out in the out [01:04:45] of dental school, I was writing a lot, got got 2 or 3 articles published in the age. I had written [01:04:50] stuff in in as it was the probe magazine thing. And people want [01:04:55] people who could write, uh, and I was and I was therefore high profile. And the interesting thing you [01:05:00] can get to be high profile now very quickly, um, without doing much, without much effort, because [01:05:05] of Instagram, because the social media, back in those days to be noticed in the profession, you had to work really [01:05:10] hard. It wasn’t an easy thing to be recognised. You did, you know, you did the lecture circuit. You did, [01:05:15] uh, you know, six, three, six, three courses. You did a whole lot of stuff before anybody recognised you. And in [01:05:20] a sense that’s, you know, when I talk to we talk about garage writing about this a lot. The thing, [01:05:25] you know, where do these people come from? Suddenly out of the blue, they’re. They become really famous for thinking, where’s your hard [01:05:30] rock? Where’s all the hard grind that you and I had to do? I think, yeah, that’s that’s life kind of thing. But [01:05:35] I think that’s that’s kind of, uh, this idea that, um, it’s, you know, I [01:05:40] got the interesting writing and that’s kind of got me where I, where I got to for various reasons, basically [01:05:45] of the English to dentistry and then and then writing for the dental protection. [01:05:50] It’s a.

Speaker3: Brilliant point. It’s a brilliant point. I mean, people forget even Pre-social, I think, [01:05:55] I think FMC had a lot to do with it. Yeah. If you remember [01:06:00] pre FMC, do you remember pre FMC? I did yeah yeah I was very early but [01:06:05] I mean when FMC that that do you remember it was called independent seminars [01:06:10] or something. Yeah. Yeah that had a big part in in in making people [01:06:15] famous. And then, and then they weaved it into the magazines. Yeah. [01:06:20] But before that you’re quite right. I mean, you had to be a professor or something. [01:06:25] You had to be. You had to really work hard to bring it up and down the country. Well, [01:06:30] it’s interesting, you see.

Speaker1: Funny because I remember I used to write for the probe. Yeah. Um, and [01:06:35] there was, there was it’s called basically it was a called a stringer. Basically, if you wanted to, [01:06:40] uh, if there was a course on, they would send you along to it for free and you’d [01:06:45] write it up in the probe. Okay. And I remember and then Ken Finlayson turned up [01:06:50] and I actually met him in my surgery. He came to meet me and he said, you know, you’re obviously a bit of a writer. [01:06:55] You don’t want to do this. You want to join that. And I remember being on the editorial board of the early, uh, [01:07:00] early magazines for Ken and getting to him quite well. And then obviously he’s [01:07:05] obviously done various other things basically. And, and, and I think that sort of celebrity [01:07:10] you have to celebrity stuff came out of that. And then obviously then social media came along. And you know, [01:07:15] it is interesting that the but people still will remember, you know, Roger [01:07:20] and Kevin Lewis, but the older generation will the younger people never heard of these [01:07:25] people at all. And I could walk into a room now and I’d look around thinking, nobody knows me, um, [01:07:30] I don’t know them. And whereas whereas an older generation would know me, would [01:07:35] know Raj, would know Kevin, etc., etc. so it is, it’s it’s a it’s a different world. Definitely a different world. [01:07:40]

Speaker3: The third guest.

Speaker1: Third guest, um, guy called Martin [01:07:45] Seligman. Uh, Martin Seligman is a an American psychologist. [01:07:50] Um, he was he was at Princeton. Uh, and he’s a University of Pennsylvania. His book [01:07:55] is called Authentic Happiness and is probably the most influential book I’ve ever read. [01:08:00] Probably, uh, quite a few years ago, about 2002. And I read about 12 years [01:08:05] ago, and it kind of changed my whole whole perspective on what he [01:08:10] described as what’s called positive psychology. And it talked about happiness when people [01:08:15] weren’t talking about happiness. And the whole concept of positive psychology is he he is a psychologist [01:08:20] himself. And he said, why are psychologists spending all their time looking after ill people [01:08:25] when they are trying to make them better? So surely they must know what’s good for people. And [01:08:30] while we spend our time using the the same stories and the same [01:08:35] techniques to get people to be happy. And so he was kind of [01:08:40] use this scientific method to explore happiness in his book. And authentic happiness is just a classic [01:08:45] in terms of the science, the literature behind it and the creating [01:08:50] this meaning and purpose and and the whole concept, pleasure and gratification, I thought. And one of the things [01:08:55] that that stuck in my mind from that book was that happiness is a choice, and [01:09:00] that 50% of your happiness is actually determined by your DNA. It’s from your parents. [01:09:05] Okay, so if your parents were pretty grumpy and pretty miserable, well, you’d like to be pretty grumpy [01:09:10] and miserable yourself. Uh, 10% by circumstance and 40%, uh, is [01:09:15] your internal state of mind basically how you how you perceive things? Uh, that’s um, and how [01:09:20] you manage your, your everyday life. And I thought for me, that was a pretty seminal book in terms [01:09:25] of how I looked at how you’d approach things. And I remember reading it and just [01:09:30] literally, uh, reading it that that one I did read 2 or 3 times, and I remember just quoting [01:09:35] stuff to my kids left, right and centre, bored, rigid, basically. Uh, but yeah, it’s that [01:09:40] that certainly was, uh, I think it’d be a very interesting guest at our party.

Speaker3: Excellent, [01:09:45] excellent. Positive psychology. What’s what’s it called?

Speaker1: It’s [01:09:50] called authentic happiness.

Speaker3: Authentic positive.

Speaker1: Psychology. Yeah. Fields positive psychology. His [01:09:55] book is called Authentic Happiness. Um. Martin Seligman. Yeah. It’s interesting [01:10:00] guy.

Speaker3: And the final question. Yeah. Deathbed question. [01:10:05] On your deathbed, surrounded by your loved ones, [01:10:10] friends and family. By that time, hopefully grandchildren. Great grandchildren. [01:10:15] Yeah. She had to give him three pieces of wisdom, three pieces of advice. What [01:10:20] would they be?

Speaker1: Um, we kind of alluded to this. The first one would be [01:10:25] to say yes, when somebody asks you to do something as part of your job, your career, [01:10:30] you just say yes, because and that’s kind of in answer to your question, why did you get involved [01:10:35] in all those things? Because somebody said, why don’t you join the LDC? Why don’t you join the young dentist committee? [01:10:40] Why don’t you do this? And you’re thinking, yeah, okay, you know, I’ll do that. And, you know, I said yes. And [01:10:45] I was saying yes in my early parts of my career, when lots of people were just getting [01:10:50] their head down and doing a lot of dentistry and being an associate. And I said, so I was working on [01:10:55] local LDC young Dentist committee and then set up the first National Young Dentist [01:11:00] committee, the BDA, and spent literally a year going backwards and forwards, trying to convince, as it was the [01:11:05] board of directors, that the usefulness, as they said, well, we shouldn’t split young dentists up, etc., etc. [01:11:10] and I spent a whole year so I was going backwards and forwards. So that year I probably lost a lot of [01:11:15] income going backwards and forwards to the BDA. And you know, my wife would say, why are you [01:11:20] doing this? You know, less and less than I am. What are you doing? And actually all [01:11:25] those investments and time and effort saying yes will pay dividends in your [01:11:30] profession, your career. So that would be my first bit of advice.

Speaker3: Then say yes. Do you think, though, that it [01:11:35] goes back one one step earlier than that and, [01:11:40] you know, to be asked to do x, y and Z, you have to be a particular [01:11:45] cat.

Speaker1: Um, because. Yeah.

Speaker3: Because I’m being asked to do [01:11:50] x, Y and Z. Do you see. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah I agree, I agree.

Speaker1: Yeah yeah yeah I agree I agree there [01:11:55] is. Yeah there is some of course. Yeah yeah there is some element to that because you’re, [01:12:00] you’re right. Because there are some people that I wouldn’t ask I wouldn’t ask basically. Yeah. Yeah you’re right. Yeah [01:12:05] you’re right. And so if they say yes, I don’t want them to say yes. No I yeah there, [01:12:10] there is that point. That’s why I didn’t take that. Yeah.

Speaker3: What’s the second piece of advice.

Speaker1: Second [01:12:15] piece of advice is again something related to the Leaders who tried to be an expert in something. [01:12:20] Uh, it might be your career. It might be your hobby. It might be a period of of history [01:12:25] literature. If it’s your job and you’re good at it, the money will come. And I [01:12:30] think this, this, this idea of, uh, you know, this, this idea of happiness comes from, you know, you being [01:12:35] fulfilled. And so if you’re enjoying it, you know, be an expert at it. And it happens to be you’re an expert in your [01:12:40] job, great. You’ll enjoy it even more. You get a huge amount of self-fulfilment from it. And [01:12:45] it’s just that, you know, that bit of that carrot is talking about, you’ve got your bit of character that proves [01:12:50] your expert, proves it to yourself and proves it to other people. Um, so my advice, advice already [01:12:55] to my kids is, you know, try and be an expert, get you a bit of paper, nobody can take it away from you. And we’ll [01:13:00] always have that with you. The, the last bit of advice in all of that, despite all [01:13:05] that saying, be humble because you know about your achievements and be kind to others. So [01:13:10] I think it sounds like a bit of a cliche, but but actually and to a certain [01:13:15] extent, my, my disadvantage is, is is not [01:13:20] shouting from the rooftops and being humble, and often it goes against the grain of social media. [01:13:25] It goes against the grain of Instagram when people are shouting from the rooftops about [01:13:30] their wards, about this, that and the other and and finally I, Faraj and I regret and I [01:13:35] were talking about this the other day.

Speaker1: You know what? What do I what do you and what is he and what do I put on your [01:13:40] title slide of your PowerPoint presentation? Do you put landcruisin [01:13:45] all your qualifications? Do you put Rajaratnam, etc., etc.? No, [01:13:50] I don’t and I don’t either. So he says, well, everybody else does. So why aren’t we? I’m thinking [01:13:55] I feel a bit uncomfortable. And he said, well, the point is that unless people know who we [01:14:00] are, unless we tell them who we are, they’re not going to think we’re credible. Okay. So so I thought it was [01:14:05] an interesting, interesting concept where where actually self promotion [01:14:10] is not something I do particularly well or comfortable with. But actually in this [01:14:15] world of social media and Instagram and all the other things, [01:14:20] actually being humble doesn’t necessarily cut it in that sense. So, [01:14:25] so actually it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a double edged sword. But I think people would respect you [01:14:30] more if you are humble and you are you don’t boast about your achievements. Just crack on. [01:14:35] And there’s lots of things about other people I don’t know about because they don’t tell me about it. And then suddenly you discover, you think, oh God, [01:14:40] okay, well that’s amazing. I didn’t know that. Why didn’t you? Why didn’t you tell me that? So, yeah. There. [01:14:45] Is that so? So those are the three bits that I give.

Speaker3: Uh, then [01:14:50] I see you as a bit of a, like a, like a enigma, [01:14:55] right? Because much of what you’ve said has been around [01:15:00] sort of. Or having met you as well. Yeah. Much of much of what you do is around [01:15:05] wanting to know the full story. Right. That 100% has sort of and I would characterise [01:15:10] that as as kind of a black and white kind of person, someone who’d have strong views. [01:15:15] And yet when you talk about things, you talk about them with such nuance [01:15:20] and with with so much humbleness that, you know, humility or humility, [01:15:25] it’s just it’s surprising. It’s surprising, you know, you it’s [01:15:30] a nice thing. It’s a nice thing to see. And it goes to the to the point that, you know, things are [01:15:35] not as simple as one plus one equals two when it comes to human beings. You know, [01:15:40] we’re nuanced. We’ve got lots of different angles about us. It’s [01:15:45] been a fantastic course. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for doing this. It’s been a massive honour to have [01:15:50] you here.

Speaker2: This is Dental Leaders, [01:15:55] the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders [01:16:00] in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:16:05] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker4: Thanks for listening, guys. [01:16:10] If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both [01:16:15] from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest [01:16:20] has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, [01:16:25] think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend who you [01:16:30] think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker4: And don’t forget our six [01:16:35] star rating.

Speaker1: Dentistry is a fantastic profession. It does not need to be. You do not need to be worried looking [00:00:05] over your shoulder thinking, God, when am I going to get sued? The patient’s going to complain. If they complain, they complain. [00:00:10] But all you need to do is just learn from those complaints and move on. So I think that’s our biggest concern [00:00:15] that we still have this, this, this sword of Damocles, of litigation hanging over people’s [00:00:20] heads thinking it’s going to be me. It’s going to be me today. If I go in and I do something wrong, they’re bound to complain. [00:00:25] And I have that in my own practising. And don’t worry about it. They complain we’ll deal with it. So okay. [00:00:30]

Speaker2: This [00:00:35] is Dental Leaders. The podcast where you get [00:00:40] to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:00:45] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav [00:00:50] Solanki.

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome a [00:00:55] dentist whose name is so synonymous with dental legal affairs that [00:01:00] you may think he does nothing else, but because this research that I was [00:01:05] doing for this podcast with Len de Cruz, I’ve come to find that he’s one of the [00:01:10] busiest dentists out there. It took me a full 45 minutes to go through all of your achievements. [00:01:15] Then, uh, practice owner with his wife and a practice they started [00:01:20] 30 odd years ago with two surgeries. Now, up to seven surgeries with specialists. [00:01:25] You know, any any business that’s running for that many years, I’ve got a lot of respect [00:01:30] for. But growing a business like that and, you know, I’ve known of Len de Cruz since the day [00:01:35] I qualified. And yet I never knew that, uh, you’re running a busy practice. Um, [00:01:40] trainer, foundation trainer, long time Dental, legal advisor [00:01:45] at Dental protection and now head of BDA indemnity, [00:01:50] which we’ll get to. But examiner for the aura. [00:01:55] Um, all for lots of journals and book book chapters. [00:02:00] Post-grad tutor. But you’ve done a lot. I’m sure I’ve [00:02:05] missed a bunch. Welcome to the podcast. Lovely.

Speaker1: Thank you very much. It’s a lovely introduction. [00:02:10] You do forget what you’ve been doing, uh, over the years, basically. But. Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker3: So [00:02:15] then I’d love to sort of try and find out sort of the backstory of what what [00:02:20] what were you like as, as a kid? Where did you grow up? Where were you born? [00:02:25] Where did you grow up? What were you like?

Speaker1: What was it like? Um, so I was born in Nairobi [00:02:30] in Kenya, and I lived there till I was 12 or 13 years old. [00:02:35] My parents, my dad was a worked for a company called [00:02:40] East Africa Power and Lighting. Uh, and he had interestingly, my two [00:02:45] elder brothers were came here to private school, public school, boarding school, about [00:02:50] 7 or 8 years before we arrived, because my dad had expatriate terms and they paid for [00:02:55] their education, they paid for their flights back home. But in their wisdom, they decided to keep [00:03:00] me home, uh, as their last son. So we eventually emigrated to England [00:03:05] in 1977. So. And I arrived here [00:03:10] as a schoolboy, walked into school at, well, essentially [00:03:15] arrived in London Heathrow Airport, driving through house [00:03:20] after house, thinking what on earth are I’m doing in this country? Having lived in the wild [00:03:25] wilds of Nairobi, the open spaces. So coming to London was a bit of a shock. [00:03:30] I came arrived in September and I was in school within within a few weeks in [00:03:35] a school in North London, essentially. Um, and that was the start of it. Uh, I, I [00:03:40] enjoyed school, it was a bit of a culture shock the first couple of years, because the [00:03:45] education system in Kenya was actually pretty advanced. I spent the first year not doing a great [00:03:50] deal. I watched TV a lot and Citizen Smith and Selwyn Frog and [00:03:55] complete rubbish and and actually just got on with life. So as a kid [00:04:00] I. I enjoyed sports. I was good at basketball, reasonably good at football, [00:04:05] and then became.

Speaker1: But one of the things I enjoyed doing most of all was [00:04:10] English. I liked, uh, reading books, and I actually did English [00:04:15] A-level, uh, in amongst the three science A-levels you had to do. So I did physics, chemistry, [00:04:20] biology, and I was absolutely hopeless at physics. I don’t understand it now. [00:04:25] Not sure why anybody can understand physics. Maths was just a was a foreign subject [00:04:30] to me. So I actually did English. I did miserably in physics, dropped several grades and because I got [00:04:35] an A in English, I managed to get to do dentistry. So I wouldn’t have done. I wouldn’t have been here right now [00:04:40] had I not done English. And interestingly, I did English, uh, on the sly because [00:04:45] my parents said, uh, you as good Indian parents, you have to concentrate your three subjects [00:04:50] you can’t possibly do English. English is going to is going to be a is a waste of time. It’s a useless subject. Don’t bother [00:04:55] doing it. Um, so I remember coming home and they said to me, have you given up English? I [00:05:00] said, yeah, I’ve given up. Are you sure you’ve given up English? Yes, I have, uh, so I carried on anyway and, and [00:05:05] bizarrely got a, got an A and, and at one point I was considering doing English [00:05:10] at university and my English teacher said, don’t bother. Do sciences do dentistry? [00:05:15] They are the great career. You can do English at any point. So that’s kind of how I got into, uh, writing, [00:05:20] uh, and just really interested in that sort of stuff.

Speaker3: Why dentistry?

Speaker1: The, uh, why [00:05:25] dentistry? Interestingly, I probably the it’s an odd answer, but it’s [00:05:30] a lazy, lazy response to to or lazy lazy reaction to [00:05:35] medicine. My brother, my older brother was was a doctor. He was working incredibly long [00:05:40] hours. He was doing a lot of, uh, a lot of work. Uh, and I just thought, actually, if I did dentistry, [00:05:45] I wouldn’t have to do as much. I just had to learn anatomy of the head and neck wouldn’t be that difficult, [00:05:50] surely. And it’s a 9 to 5 job, so it should be. Okay. So it was kind [00:05:55] of, uh, one of the things I was quite interested at that time was, is I was going to be dentistry, pharmacy [00:06:00] or genetics. Genetics was a major big thing. You read New Scientist at the time, genetics [00:06:05] was a real, real big, big thing. Well, before the Human Genome Project. All the [00:06:10] sort of things that now become quite, quite relevant. Now, back in the days, it was quite a big thing. Every [00:06:15] every article in New Scientist at the time was about genetics. The jobs were about genetics, [00:06:20] um, and that new world. So I was quite interested in that, but ended up in dentistry [00:06:25] and ended up at uh, and again, the the reason I got into dentistry was [00:06:30] no other university other than the Royal London or London Hospital at the time was taking [00:06:35] English, or they took biology, chemistry and one other subject. Everybody else said you had to have [00:06:40] physics, chemistry, biology. So I’m eternally grateful for the London having the [00:06:45] foresight to see that actually it didn’t need physics to do dentistry, frankly. And [00:06:50] and so that was that’s how I got there. Uh, no other university would have accepted me at that time. [00:06:55]

Speaker3: So, I mean, now I know now you have a law qualification. Was was law not on the picture [00:07:00] at that point?

Speaker1: Not really. No. It was it was very much dentistry is going to be English dentistry [00:07:05] science background I wouldn’t the law stuff came a lot later when the opportunity [00:07:10] arose, rather than something that was sort of burning ambition.

Speaker3: But you know what [00:07:15] I mean. Your English teacher could have said, hey, do law.

Speaker1: Could [00:07:20] have done, could have done. Um, uh, because there was there was a couple of people who’d went [00:07:25] off to York University to do English, and I thought, this is just amazing, you know, go to the English to, [00:07:30] you know, do Shakespeare, all that sort of stuff. And I remember, uh, just saying, you know, you can do this [00:07:35] any time you want to, basically, you know, if you’ve got a good career in dentistry, if you’re going to do well, let’s crack [00:07:40] on with that, basically. But yeah, and actually nobody did mention law. Um, I’m probably not [00:07:45] because because I quite like the sciences. And so it would have been, it could [00:07:50] have done it, but uh, it was, wasn’t on my radar at all.

Speaker3: You [00:07:55] know, when, when, when we had a dinner recently at the, um, Dental update thing and [00:08:00] when I left that dinner, the feeling that I got from you. Well, number [00:08:05] one, I spent the whole night talking about me because. Because you’re such a curious person, [00:08:10] you you ask a question and delve deeper into it and then say, what do you really mean [00:08:15] by that? And, you know, an incredibly detail orientated person. [00:08:20] Have you always been that guy?

Speaker1: You surprised me that you’d say, I’m a detail person [00:08:25] because my wife would say to me, uh, you’re a big you’re a big picture person and you never follow through and [00:08:30] stuff. So I think, I think probably conversation I would get into into into [00:08:35] detail stuff. But but as a, it’s a reason why I don’t think I’d be a specialist. [00:08:40] The reason why I couldn’t do something to, you know, so I rely a lot on other people. [00:08:45] I rely a lot on my wife for the detail stuff. I rely on other people for the detail stuff. Conversationally. [00:08:50] I just find fascinating chatting to people and just getting to know other people’s stories. So, [00:08:55] uh. So yeah, I forgive me if I was intrusive.

Speaker3: No no no no no no no no. So [00:09:00] just because, you know, I want to know about you, but you. So [00:09:05] tell me about your university years. Did you take to it? Naturally. [00:09:10] Did you find it difficult? Did you find the studying bit easier or the practical bit?

Speaker1: Uh, [00:09:15] I actually found that academic was very easy. I mean, I realised one [00:09:20] side done the first year. I think actually, it’s not going to get any more difficult than this, and it was pretty straightforward. [00:09:25] It’s just need to learn anatomy, physiology, biochemistry. And it was not particularly difficult. [00:09:30] So academically and I and I and I really strongly believe that it’s not an academic [00:09:35] subject. And we created this, this monster that requires, you know, [00:09:40] uh, four stars to get into dentistry. And it’s just it’s really obviously just, uh, just a filter mechanism. [00:09:45] But actually, academically, you don’t need to be exceptionally bright. You just need to be you need to be good with people. You need to be good [00:09:50] with your hands. And but even the hands thing, you know, I’ve done looked at this a lot and you [00:09:55] can learn those sort of those manual dexterity skills. I think it’s the communication, the liking, people [00:10:00] getting on with people that is actually fundamental to all of it. Being empathetic, um, having those sort of communication [00:10:05] skills and listening to people. And I think that’s you can’t you can’t necessarily teach that it’s got to be [00:10:10] something that you just enjoy doing.

Speaker1: So, I mean, for me, university I enjoyed academically [00:10:15] wasn’t challenging. Um, I wasn’t the best student, but interesting. I started getting [00:10:20] involved, wanting to get involved in politics as the there was the PDSA British Dental Students [00:10:25] Association stood for election. Didn’t get it started seeing okay, this is something that might I might [00:10:30] find interesting but yeah, I probably was uh, I was, I was I was quite keen, I [00:10:35] didn’t I didn’t fail any exams. Lots of people failed all their internal exams because it just couldn’t be bothered to do it. And I thought, [00:10:40] no, I don’t want to fail an exam. So so I did. I worked reasonably hard, uh, was reasonably academic, [00:10:45] but not not, um, not a high flyer by any stretch of the imagination. Just, just just basically [00:10:50] works and work. So. Yeah. So I mean, I enjoyed university. Lots of people didn’t work out. Um, [00:10:55] they lots of people hated university and just wanted to get out [00:11:00] for me and enjoyed it, enjoyed the the fun of it, enjoyed the the camaraderie of it and [00:11:05] and was gone on with the gone on well with the tutors.

Speaker3: And in Whitechapel [00:11:10] did you know what to expect when you, when you got there? Because I remember going for my interview in Whitechapel [00:11:15] and um, I couldn’t believe it, man. When I came out of the the [00:11:20] underground station into Whitechapel market, I’m not sure if it’s still is. [00:11:25] It must be still like that. I haven’t been for a while.

Speaker1: Exactly. It’s exactly the same. It’s a real culture shock. Um, [00:11:30] you know, coming from North London, I’ve lived in north London. And you, you’re always thinking, where am I this [00:11:35] this looks like, you know, West Bengal or something. What is going on here? You know, markets, you know, from, uh. [00:11:40] And you think I’m never going to get on with it. Um, but interestingly, I, my wife went to King’s and she [00:11:45] had the same experience she was from. She was from Ireland. Uh, she lived in Ireland all her life in rural, [00:11:50] rural Fermanagh. And she arrives in Brixton and you’re thinking, oh my goodness [00:11:55] me. And she says, I’m never going to like this place. And she, you know, as you do, you get on with it, you enjoy it, you [00:12:00] get to know the place, you feel reasonably safe in it. You get on with it. Yeah. So it is exactly [00:12:05] the same, but it’s actually a wonderful area.

Speaker3: It’s actually quite cool now.

Speaker1: It is. It is, you know, when [00:12:10] you and when you cross the Whitechapel High Street, you look down and you’re thinking that is the city. You know, you’re so close to city. [00:12:15] And I don’t think I ever realised just how close it was to city, which is why, you know, it is. It is seriously, [00:12:20] um, desirable residential areas now for sure. Um, which is, which [00:12:25] is strange.

Speaker3: Did you did you party or. No.

Speaker1: I did some. I didn’t do [00:12:30] a huge amount of partying at those guys in the year. Above. Above me who, uh, they were serious [00:12:35] party animals, basically. But no, I wouldn’t wouldn’t say we were. We’re out doing, uh, [00:12:40] long, late nights, basically. Um, so. Yeah. No, it was, it was we we had a good time, but it was [00:12:45] and I think and what is interesting, because it’s such a long course, you just got to, you kind of realise you’ve [00:12:50] got to crack on and do this. And I think what drove me both the Dental school and in my [00:12:55] A-levels was this notion that if I don’t do this, I’m going to get left behind. And [00:13:00] I remember the classic sort of feeling at, um, at school at, you know, doing my A-levels, [00:13:05] thinking if I don’t get to do dentistry, if I fail some exams, I’m going to have to go back into [00:13:10] sixth form college. I’m going to hate it. All my mates are going to be moving on. It’s going to be a nightmare. And so [00:13:15] probably this this drive of not being left behind, making sure I didn’t do anything, undermine [00:13:20] my my sort of progress was just sort of the driving force. And it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t academically [00:13:25] gifted, nor was I, you know, really, really hard working. It was just, you know, put the hours in [00:13:30] and just just make sure you got you got there in the end. And, and I, you know, lots of my friends failed [00:13:35] either prosthetics or they failed finals or fail pathology or dental anatomy [00:13:40] or whatever along the way. And I thought it’s just such a waste of time and effort, basically. So that was kind [00:13:45] of what drove me to make sure at least I got through, got through university.

Speaker3: And [00:13:50] so, you know, to create a kid like you takes a particular [00:13:55] type of parenting. Right. And would you say that the parenting [00:14:00] style of your. Parents compared to your parenting style is very [00:14:05] different or very similar.

Speaker1: I think it’s very different because, well, I think there was the [00:14:10] that it’s a generational thing and I, you know, I don’t think I’d got many, uh, hugs [00:14:15] or cuddles or, you know, that sort of that sort of relationship that, that you probably had with your parents, [00:14:20] I had with my parents. It’s like, you know, and it was it is very much you got to work. You got to work hard. Um, [00:14:25] you know, one of the things, you know, one of the things you know, my dad was very fond of saying in [00:14:30] Kenya was you have to get your caritas. Caritas is Swahili for paper. So I [00:14:35] you’ve got to get your bit of paper, you’ve got to get your qualifications. And I think his he was very scarred [00:14:40] by being an Asian in a, in a largely [00:14:45] white colonial sort of company in Kenya. And he felt this [00:14:50] prejudice, he felt the only thing that kept him, the only thing that set him apart or kept him going [00:14:55] was the fact that he had a proper qualification. He was a chartered electrical engineer. He [00:15:00] had what he called a bit of courtesy, saying, basically, nobody can take that away from you. As long as he got you a bit of [00:15:05] paper, you work hard, you get your qualifications.

Speaker1: And I suppose that’s kind of driven, um, [00:15:10] driven, driven me to get a strings of bits of qualifications, all sorts [00:15:15] of things. And it was, it was kind of just saying, you know, it gives me credibility as one things I did a law degree for, [00:15:20] because by that time I’d joined Dental Protection, and I [00:15:25] was the youngest Dental legal adviser in Dental protection at the time. And I thought, ah, [00:15:30] this is you know, this is not a good look if if I walk in here and I’ve got no real credibility [00:15:35] other than the fact that, you know, I’ve been selected and there’s no massive [00:15:40] interview process back in the days when it was Kevin Lewis and, you know, it was [00:15:45] that sort of that sort of interview where you sort of you had it described as a David [00:15:50] Phillips and Kevin Lewis did a trial by knife and fork. You come in, if we like you, [00:15:55] we’ll give you the job basically at their favourite Italian restaurant, which you can’t do these days at all, basically. [00:16:00] And, and at that point you’re thinking, right, okay, I’m here. It’s fantastic. But you know, how am I going [00:16:05] to demonstrate my credibility? That’s why I end up doing a law degree, the master’s in law down at, um, [00:16:10] Cardiff.

Speaker1: And, you know, and it did well. And on the back of that, [00:16:15] interestingly, I was I was writing a, a couple of articles, written article for Dental update [00:16:20] for Trevor Burke, um, on record keeping. And I said, oh, I’ve just done this, uh, law [00:16:25] degree. I could write something else. He says, oh, what else do you want write about? I said, maybe write some content. He says, tell [00:16:30] you what, don’t do that. Why don’t you write a book? And I said, what do you mean, write a book? Um, well, [00:16:35] just just write a book. Uh, legal aspects of dental practice. I said, what are [00:16:40] you talking about? He says, well, we’ll put you in touch with Elsevier, Churchill, Livingstone, Elsevier, uh, and go [00:16:45] for it. And I’m thinking, what? And so yeah. And it took, it took a while, but [00:16:50] you did it and, and again that gives you confidence, not so much credibility but [00:16:55] confidence to say, actually you know what? I think I know what I’m doing. And that’s kind of then builds builds you up. And [00:17:00] that’s again it’s that sort of notion of confidence because you’ve done you’ve done the hard yards [00:17:05] to get where you want to be.

Speaker3: And now it’s a massive area. I mean, you teach on on [00:17:10] the Ma and university yourself for now. Yeah. But yeah, at the time that [00:17:15] you were getting into it, it wasn’t really. Did you have an inkling that it would be. [00:17:20]

Speaker1: Um, no, I think it was. I think the beauty of Dental protection was [00:17:25] it’s this family of Dental legal advisers. They had the largest number of Dental legal advisers. [00:17:30] Uh, David Phillips was there then. He then obviously retired. Kevin Lewis took over. And he’s [00:17:35] just. If there’s anybody I admire, there’s two people I admire most to be Rajaratnam [00:17:40] and Kevin Lewis. And and they had a real you know, they’re really influential in my life [00:17:45] in terms of, you know, how I thought about things, um, how I conducted myself. But [00:17:50] but it was that sort of it was you knew you were doing something that was really, really interesting [00:17:55] and fascinating, but it wasn’t. It only became it’s [00:18:00] probably become bigger now, partly because people are now we run a course on it. Um, at the University [00:18:05] of Bedfordshire course is the one I actually set up because a lady called Claire Morris was [00:18:10] she ran a masters in postgraduate education, in teaching for, for [00:18:15] trainers. And when the chapter is doing a seminar, she says, I would love to do more stuff with dentists. And I said, well, [00:18:20] I remember, um, it was a conference going to bed, uh, at that night and then wake [00:18:25] up at 3:00 in the morning.

Speaker1: And you know what? We need to do a Dental legal course. Um, and literally 3:00 [00:18:30] in the morning, knocked out a whole curriculum. Said, I’ve got to we’ve got to do this. Basically, it took another two years [00:18:35] to get the curriculum up and running. But it’s great. You know, we’ve had, what, about 110, 120 people [00:18:40] through that. So it’s becoming more academic. Back in the day it wasn’t very academic. You kind of just said, right, [00:18:45] uh, read, uh, read the NHS regulations, the, the SDR, a couple [00:18:50] of GDC gazettes, and here’s the telephone answer, some answer some calls. And now it is. [00:18:55] It is it’s very academic. Um, and it’s also it’s more. [00:19:00] I think that there are higher stakes, probably were higher stakes then, but I think they’re more higher stakes in [00:19:05] terms of the advice you give, you’ve got to be more careful. You can be more, um, more, uh, [00:19:10] you’ve got to understand and, uh, be in tune with a whole lot of other stuff in addition [00:19:15] to the facts of the case.

Speaker3: Well, do you think makes a good Dental legal adviser? [00:19:20] Because, I mean, let’s let’s start with the kind of person who wants [00:19:25] to be a Dental legal adviser. It takes a particular character, doesn’t it? I mean, in [00:19:30] many ways, I’d find, you know, in the same way as I’m very scared of oral surgery. [00:19:35] You know, I just I’m just scared of it. And now you could say, I don’t know what I’m doing. [00:19:40] Right, but I’ve got intrinsic fear of blood, if you like, as a as a as an operator. [00:19:45] I mean, yeah, but it’s a similar kind of you’ve got to be a particular kind of person to. [00:19:50] Sort of. Yeah. Like you say, play in those states, people’s lives [00:19:55] and and sort of their whole livelihoods at stake. What would you say? What are your [00:20:00] thoughts about Dental legal adviser? I mean, what kind of person is it? Okay.

Speaker1: So there’s two types. I [00:20:05] suppose the, the the more recent applicants to become [00:20:10] Dental legal adviser are people who actually don’t want to do dentistry anymore. Okay. They kind of think, [00:20:15] you know, I just want to do something else. I want to find another avenue. I don’t want to do clinical dentistry [00:20:20] day in, day out. And I just want to find another avenue. And they aren’t necessarily the most suitable [00:20:25] people because they’re just finding another, another avenue they could be doing. They could be doing [00:20:30] any other avenue, basically, but they just want to do something other than that. And that’s probably not the best people. [00:20:35] The sort of test now is that you’ve you I think you’re going to be a good listener. [00:20:40] And we’ve interestingly, we’ve just had a we’ve had a round of applications. We’ve just appointed somebody, [00:20:45] a new person to our team about 3 or 4 months ago. And what was interesting was [00:20:50] we did a they did a presentation, they did a group exercise, they did a [00:20:55] written exercise, etc., etc.. And what was interesting was the most the thing that separated the [00:21:00] candidates apart was the group exercise because we gave them a particular scenario. Um, [00:21:05] it’s a, it’s a bit of um, a member has called in, they’ve asked for some help and you give them [00:21:10] the scenario, and then these four people discuss it. And what was interesting was [00:21:15] how the person who is the most likely person to get it was, was, was bright, but also [00:21:20] stopped, listened, managed to, to get all the information from everybody else, weighed [00:21:25] it all up and then weighed in.

Speaker1: And I think that’s one of the skills skill set that [00:21:30] you need to have in you. You need to have a you can’t be egotistical, you can’t be arrogant, [00:21:35] but you can’t be. You’re there to advise, but not over advisers away. You’re there [00:21:40] to listen and you’re there to direct people in in the right way. But [00:21:45] you can’t be the expert. You can’t be the one to say, well, you ought to do it like this because. [00:21:50] Because all you’re doing is advising them. Because ultimately you, as the dentist will say, I’m [00:21:55] not going to listen to your advice. I’m going to do X, Y, and Z. And it it takes a lot of it takes a certain [00:22:00] skill set to say, actually, this is not actually about me. This is about you. Um, I’m putting my [00:22:05] ego, my views, my clinical skill set to one side. [00:22:10] I need to listen to you. I need to listen to your particular perspective. Then I’ll give you my view [00:22:15] and. But but I need to get all the facts from you. And often, you know, dentists like everybody [00:22:20] else, who only give you half the story. You need to tease out that story from them. Simple things, you know, somebody [00:22:25] will say, how long did they keep records card for? We don’t need to give me a ring for that.

Speaker1: It’s pretty obvious. Just look [00:22:30] it up, okay? But you don’t see. Rang me for a reason. Why didn’t you? Why ask [00:22:35] me that role? Because I’m telling the practice. Oh, you’re selling the practice, so why send the practice? Oh, because I’ve had particular [00:22:40] problems. Oh, you have particular problems. And it just goes on and on and thinking. So actually, the question wasn’t about record keeping at all. [00:22:45] The question is about something else. And actually and maybe that’s this, this interrogative sort of approach [00:22:50] that you said at the beginning is I just want to know what what’s going on, what’s going on in your head? [00:22:55] Why do you. Because because my you know, I say to our dental advisors often, [00:23:00] you know, the people have complaints all the time, day in, day [00:23:05] out. They don’t phone us. Okay. So what is it that prompt them to phone us today [00:23:10] about this particular issue? There’s something about this particular issue. These are bright, intelligent people. Um, [00:23:15] they deal with these sort of issues day in, day out. They must have complaints. We, we as [00:23:20] uh, advisors or uh, indemnity organisations probably deal with just the tip of the iceberg in terms [00:23:25] of the calls. We get literally thousands of calls, but there’s plenty of other things that happen. So you’re thinking, [00:23:30] why did you phone me today? What is it that’s actually bugging you? What’s going on? [00:23:35] So there’s there’s a couple of things you’d want.

Speaker1: You either want reassurance about the things [00:23:40] you’re currently doing. You want to go down one route and you want reassurance. Or there is generally flummoxed, [00:23:45] genuinely flummoxed about something. Or actually, there’s there’s something more to this call. [00:23:50] Um, and I need to get to the bottom of why you’ve called me, not giving me the full story. Um, because [00:23:55] you’re embarrassed. Because it’s it’s a it’s worrying you, you’re concerned. And and I think [00:24:00] for us, I think the most challenging emotion that [00:24:05] we ever have to deal with is shame. Okay. Um, because nobody wants [00:24:10] to admit they made a mistake. Nobody ever wants to say I’ve done something wrong. And then to get onto the phone and [00:24:15] say, you know what? I’ve done this. They’re not going to come out and say, I’ve done this because, because, because they’ll [00:24:20] kind of say, you know, they’ve done it. It’ll take a huge amount of effort to to admit [00:24:25] it. And it’s human nature to actually talk to a complete stranger and say, you know [00:24:30] what? I’ve done this. And and I remember one of the most interesting conversations I had with a couple of years [00:24:35] ago with, with a dentist, and he’d done something, uh, there was an error we thought was probably, [00:24:40] uh, worth a claim. Um, there’s probably going to probably going to settle it.

Speaker1: And I said to him and said, you know, you’re worried about this. [00:24:45] Yeah. He says, I’m worried about it. But I said, have you spoken to anybody about it? And he says. [00:24:50] No, I said, do you have anybody, you know, family who’s a dentist? He said, yeah, my brother’s a dentist. [00:24:55] I said, have you spoken to him? Said, no, no. Why haven’t you spoken to him? Because he’d think less of [00:25:00] me. And the family would be very shameful if I said this to to anybody that I actually [00:25:05] made a mistake. And you’re thinking. Yeah, but we all make mistakes. No, no, my family won’t tolerate [00:25:10] it. My brother will think I’m stupid. So I’m not going to say to anyone, I think, well, you’ve [00:25:15] just lost out on a huge opportunity to talk to somebody else about it. Your your your brother is a dentist. Um, [00:25:20] but no. And I think that’s and I think shame is the sort of thing that clouds [00:25:25] a lot of judgements. People become defensive, they pick up, take up a position which [00:25:30] they don’t want to admit to, and they get lost in that particular position. They don’t want to change it. And you’re thinking, you know, [00:25:35] and you realise actually you have done something wrong. Just admit it, you know, well, you’re here to help [00:25:40] you. And I think for us that’s that is the biggest, biggest challenge.

Speaker3: I guess it’s a bit like [00:25:45] patients who are ashamed of their teeth and they think that we’re going to have any problem with [00:25:50] it. Yeah. Yeah. Like that’s right.

Speaker1: Yeah, absolutely. You say, you know how many times you say, [00:25:55] oh, you’re going to be you’re going to be amazed. You’re going to be shocked when you look at my mouth. I’m really embarrassed about it. You [00:26:00] look around, you think, actually there’s only one filling need doing here. What’s what’s the big deal here? Uh, so [00:26:05] so yeah, no I agree.

Speaker3: Yeah, but then. Okay, shame [00:26:10] is one thing. And then. And then you’ve got people who whose whole livelihood is at risk, [00:26:15] right? Are people generally more worried than they should be in [00:26:20] the nature of the thing?

Speaker1: Yeah, I think there is. And I think we sort of, uh, [00:26:25] interestingly, we’ve just done a survey of members, quite a detailed [00:26:30] surveys. It’s it’s our contribution to contract review and [00:26:35] that data and which is looking at the looking at things [00:26:40] like, you know, are you stressed, are you anxious, are you concerned. What is your biggest stresses as a practice [00:26:45] owner? What’s your big stresses and associate? The biggest stress for the practice owners are essentially, um, [00:26:50] overheads, costs and trying to and trying to get uh, staff or keep [00:26:55] and retain staff for associates. Interestingly, 67% of these people are 60 [00:27:00] minutes of the associates said, uh, litigation, fear of litigation was a concern. And [00:27:05] I find that really odd because because that is something that I was [00:27:10] acutely aware of back in 2014, 2015, 2016, when the GDC were just [00:27:15] pretty well, any case that ended up GDC went all the way through the sausage machine of fits to practice, [00:27:20] and people genuinely were concerned about litigation and had had [00:27:25] good reason to be concerned about litigation, particularly for litigation for claims, because [00:27:30] the Dental Law Partnership had set up a few years before and were were very successful [00:27:35] in doing their job at GDC, were running riot and pretty well any any [00:27:40] complaint that went in went all the way through to, to practice. And so there was a general feeling [00:27:45] of unease amongst in 2014, 2015, 2016, there was several hundred [00:27:50] cases that goes through the GDC, but interestingly, over the last 3 or 4 years that things have [00:27:55] changed.

Speaker1: The claims, the, uh, no win, no fee has changed. Uh, the [00:28:00] actual the mechanism for making claims, uh, and for, uh, for [00:28:05] costs, it’s taken the wind out of the sails of, of the claimant solicitors. So there’s less [00:28:10] likelihood of getting a claim, and there’s even less likelihood of getting [00:28:15] a GDC complaint that’s going to go all the way through. So a significant number of cases, uh, [00:28:20] end up at the GDC, but go no further than, uh, case examiners, about 60%, 67% [00:28:25] of cases just stop just there. But we still have this this overwhelming [00:28:30] feeling of of fear of litigation. And I think I believe it’s it’s unfounded [00:28:35] and partly it’s been driven originally by those that caseload, [00:28:40] but it’s also driven to, uh, to greater extent. And I think by [00:28:45] us as indemnity organisations, it was very much this idea. You’d go into a [00:28:50] lecture or given a presentation and you’d you start quoting figures of what the likelihood of [00:28:55] you getting a claim was. And, you know, 1 in 2 or 1 in 3, if you’re going to get a claim, you’re going to get a claim in the next five [00:29:00] years. Uh, so and that was almost your attention seeking device to say, well, you better [00:29:05] listen to my lecture for the next hour or so.

Speaker1: Um, because if you don’t listen, um, in trouble, [00:29:10] you’re in trouble. Uh, and so that was the sort of the normal process. And I remember, uh, [00:29:15] as I left and I think this is crazy. The whole thing has changed. But we don’t need to do [00:29:20] that. We’re actually fuelling this, this anxiety. So why don’t we look at a different [00:29:25] way. And so so my my view is very much you will get complaints. Almost certainly. [00:29:30] There’s no doubt you’re going to get a complaint because we live in a service industry. Patients are paying money. They [00:29:35] experience pain. Something’s bound to go wrong. Um, it’s a complex procedure. So. So actually, [00:29:40] complaints are inevitable part of our life, but not the GDC and not claims. [00:29:45] Um, so we should be a bit more reassured about that. And I think that’s that message [00:29:50] hasn’t got through. We, uh, at MSI, we spent a long time, certainly [00:29:55] in the last 2 or 3 years, all our all our guidance is very much about saying [00:30:00] this. Complaints are inevitable, but don’t worry about litigation or GDC stuff [00:30:05] to the point that even the GDC, their latest pilot, is looking at [00:30:10] starting September October. They are saying that if it’s a single case relating to a single [00:30:15] patient and you have no previous fitness to practice before this particular case arrived, [00:30:20] they’re not going to take any further.

Speaker1: They’ll investigate it, but pretty well. It’s going to end without with no fitness to [00:30:25] practice issues. So we’re not even going to bother going to case examiners fitness practice. So we’ll just end it there [00:30:30] because they reckon that 60% of the cases with a single case, uh, single [00:30:35] patient, it’s not going to go anywhere. Why is somebody wasting their time. So even they are trying to control [00:30:40] this. But the message hasn’t got through. And and what I’d like to say to, [00:30:45] to dentists is dentistry is a fantastic profession. It does not need to be. [00:30:50] You do not need to be worried looking over your shoulder thinking, God, when am I going to get sued? The patient is going to complain. [00:30:55] If they complain, they complain. But all you need to do is just learn from those complaints and move on. So [00:31:00] I think that’s our biggest concern that we still have this, this, this sword of Damocles, [00:31:05] of litigation hanging over. People’s heads thinking, it’s going to be me. It’s going to be me today. If I go in [00:31:10] and I do something wrong, they’re bound to complain. And I have that in my own practice saying, and don’t worry about it. They [00:31:15] complain. We’ll deal with it. So okay.

Speaker3: It’s good to hear that. It’s good to hear. I mean, you’re absolutely right. [00:31:20] I had no idea that things are getting a lot easier or getting easier even. You know, my my feeling [00:31:25] was that things are as bad as ever. But what do you think was the perfect storm that [00:31:30] led to that era of. I mean, you said you alluded a bit to the no win, no [00:31:35] fee. What about GDC itself?

Speaker1: Yeah, [00:31:40] the GDC, I think there was a bit of empire building. We put [00:31:45] it down to the head of fitness practice at the time, wanting to build the empire in [00:31:50] terms of resources, money, income coming into their particular [00:31:55] department to say, you know, fitness to practice is a is a big issue. We have all these cases coming in. [00:32:00] We need more resources. We need more energy applied to it. So as a as [00:32:05] a you become very busy all of a sudden if you essentially if the threshold is very [00:32:10] low, uh, to get across the bar into the GDC and you just put it through the sausage machine, [00:32:15] you know, it’s going to work and then your your department gets really busy. You look [00:32:20] like you need more resources. So you get more get more people. And it just it builds itself. And [00:32:25] we think there was something cynical going on at that time with the particular people at [00:32:30] the GDC. And what is what also needs to be recognised is [00:32:35] the GDC is separate from fitness to practice. I think people just wrap the whole thing up the same as [00:32:40] the same um, organisation. Fitness to practice is independent from [00:32:45] the GDC. The GDC essentially are the prosecutors. They bring their case to [00:32:50] the tribunal, the Fitness to Practice tribunal, and they have to they have to win [00:32:55] their case or successfully win their case in front of that tribunal. And we, as the defence will [00:33:00] present our case, it’s not the GDC who are judge, jury and executioner, which is [00:33:05] what people’s perception are when they say the GDC.

Speaker1: The GDC may be after you, but they’ve still got to [00:33:10] get their case across to the Fitness to Practice panel, and they’ve got to you’ve got to [00:33:15] demonstrate your fitness to practise is impaired and currently currently impaired. [00:33:20] And that is something they have to do, the GDC have to do in front of the tribunal. And [00:33:25] so so which is why if you speak to most Dental legal organisation, Dental legal advisors, [00:33:30] they say the fitness to practice process is actually very, very fair because [00:33:35] they are fair minded people. They will dismiss GDC cases just as quickly as anybody [00:33:40] else because they say there’s no case to answer here, but why is this case being brought and and what [00:33:45] they found when 2016, 2017 was when those cases went through the sausage machine at the end, they [00:33:50] realised actually there was no fitness to practice issues and no impairment was found. And so that that [00:33:55] was why was uh, that was when the bubble burst. And people think, actually, this is there’s something seriously [00:34:00] wrong here. And, and the GDC turned the corner with new personnel [00:34:05] in their fitness to practice and going and actually going out to [00:34:10] the profession and saying, we have got it wrong, we want to change. And the sort of move towards, [00:34:15] um, shifting the balance to prevention rather than cures was, [00:34:20] was, was, was a solution basically.

Speaker3: And as a guy who I mean, in a way, [00:34:25] you’re part of the legal sector now, what do you think of dental [00:34:30] law partnership differently than the way most dentists would think of them as a sort of evil [00:34:35] empire? Um, because I saw [00:34:40] something. I was one of those guys, by the way. I was thinking, I couldn’t understand, how could one law firm [00:34:45] ruin a profession, you know, in effect. And I was looking into them [00:34:50] and I saw on the legal side, you know, in the legal award ceremony [00:34:55] or something, they were picking up awards and there was a gigantic company and and so on. How [00:35:00] how do you feel about them or not? Not them in particular. But, you know, that kind of lawyer. [00:35:05] Yeah.

Speaker1: I mean, I think, well, if we if we pick on Dental partnership, their, [00:35:10] their success was, was based on the fact that they were both dentists and who [00:35:15] they were qualified dentists, they qualified as lawyers and they knew the business. They knew [00:35:20] dentistry inside out. So so their success rate was dramatically higher than anybody else, basically [00:35:25] because they knew which which claims to run. So when they knew there was no base in it, they [00:35:30] could look at themselves and say, this is not a runner. Um, we’re not even going to take this case any further. So their success [00:35:35] rate against us at the time was something like 85, 90%. Most other law firms were at [00:35:40] 45, 50%. So they knew which cases to run, and they did it very well. The problem [00:35:45] that that point was they would dig around looking at pretty well everything else that we’d done by that patient, [00:35:50] on that patient for various people. So that was more problematic. But ultimately, [00:35:55] our view, very much of you now at the indemnity and the DPL was if harm, harm [00:36:00] has come as a result of negligence, that patient deserves compensation. It’s it’s straightforward [00:36:05] as that. And our job is to. Make sure that patient gets compensation because it’s unfair to the patient. [00:36:10] We shouldn’t be dragging out a case when there is a breach of duty.

Speaker1: And and harm [00:36:15] has been caused as a result of that breach of duty. We should be paying out. So we were never [00:36:20] concerned about the concept of a solicitor acting on behalf of the patient, because they’re [00:36:25] absolutely entitled to it. And where harm is done, they should have the money, there’s no doubt about that. The issue [00:36:30] we had was the tactics they’d used, and they were pretty underhand tactics. And the [00:36:35] a significant amount of costs or significant amount of payout related [00:36:40] to the costs of the solicitors, i.e. so we’re having disproportional settlements [00:36:45] where you’d have a five £10,000 settlement to the patient and [00:36:50] you’d get a cost estimate, or the costs would run in from the from the claim solicitors [00:36:55] of 50, 60, 80, 100 grand. And you’re thinking, hang on a second, this can’t be right. So you we’ve settled [00:37:00] on ten grand. Your client has got ten grand. They’ve walked away. And you’ve now put a bill in [00:37:05] of 50, 60, £70,000. So we’d spend a particular spend a lot [00:37:10] of time in, in Chester County Court looking at the costs [00:37:15] draughtsman challenging a lot of these costs because they were inflated costs. And that’s why those [00:37:20] that’s why those, those cases look so horrendously expensive when you settle them. Because the [00:37:25] patient got a small amount. But actually what settled was quite a man.

Speaker1: So so it was a tactic that [00:37:30] and things have changed the way the legal system has changed as as unpick some of those, those situations. [00:37:35] So conceptually that claimants lawyers, they do they do a job, they do a job for [00:37:40] their patients and they do the best they can. And we’re happy for them to do that. Um, [00:37:45] it’s, it’s when they’re when tactics are employed, which I think are, are not actually beneficial [00:37:50] to the patient because sometimes, you know, one of the things that is a concern is, is the patient [00:37:55] who is being offered a settlement, but the lawyers [00:38:00] decide, actually we’re not going to accept the settlement we want more or we’re going to go after the practice [00:38:05] owner, which is what happened. Um, you know, with the liability ended up. And actually the patient [00:38:10] at the settlement was offered. There’s a settlement on the offer on the, [00:38:15] on the table, but the law firm says, actually, no, we’re going to go off to somebody else. Um, and the patient’s [00:38:20] still hanging, waiting for that settlement. You’re thinking, well, uh, you don’t have a settlement. This [00:38:25] patient is still there, you know, several years later, still waiting for something. So I think that that’s that’s our concern [00:38:30] about, uh, some of the tactics, but conceptually, they need they need to be there to do that job.

Speaker3: Which. [00:38:35] What? So would you would you set up a the equivalent.

Speaker1: Uh, [00:38:40] for. No, I think we’d always be on the defence side. Uh, we wouldn’t be on the claimants. We [00:38:45] would always be on the claimants side. That’s we’d never be on the claims. We’d always be on the defence side.

Speaker3: So [00:38:50] because you could write you you’d have the tactics and skill [00:38:55] set.

Speaker1: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I don’t think you’d be interviewing me if that was the case.

Speaker3: You [00:39:00] never know. But maybe I should get the law guys and see what they’re talking about. Yeah, [00:39:05] exactly. What about what? About the breakdown of claims and complaints? How [00:39:10] does it break down, like, statistically, what’s what’s the areas of dentistry that are most risky. [00:39:15] So I imagine what implants? Hereoh. Yeah. Author.

Speaker4: Yeah. [00:39:20]

Speaker1: It’s interesting. You see, I mean, there is a sort of a legacy of cases [00:39:25] that we might say are really high risk, period, because it’s failed to diagnose. [00:39:30] And then when when a settlement arrives, you’re chucking a lot of implants in and it’s very expensive [00:39:35] implants because they’re quite they’re quite technically difficult. Interestingly, [00:39:40] uh, our own figures over the last four years don’t show that at all. What the, [00:39:45] the most common things are, the most common things that happen. It’s failed root canal treatments or broken instruments. [00:39:50] It’s oestrogenic injury. We’ve had a skew of oestrogenic injuries where people have [00:39:55] got burnt lips from hot handpieces, uh, people have dropped instruments, the classic everyday [00:40:00] stuff, which settles for not a great deal and it’s not as complicated. And I think [00:40:05] the one of the things about the great fallacies about implants is that the reason [00:40:10] why they were loaded so high was because when implants first came on [00:40:15] the scene 20 years ago, or became more popular about 20 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, nobody [00:40:20] knew the risks involved. So they said, this must be a risk. And you’re sticking these metal blades, [00:40:25] these these, this Swedish nails into people’s teeth. This must be risky stuff. Surely [00:40:30] you’re going to hit all sorts of stuff. Um, and so people said, well, it’s going to be we’re just going to have to load these. [00:40:35] We’ve got to increase the premiums for all these people. And Kevin Lewis, when we set up and empty, [00:40:40] Kevin Lewis was a consultant, still is a consultant for us. And he said we’re toying with the idea of being empty, [00:40:45] not to load implants at all, because actually when we look at the actual figures, they [00:40:50] aren’t particularly high at all. Um, and partly because the profession has recognised [00:40:55] that this is pretty scary stuff. And they go on very good courses, um, [00:41:00] the, the I’s and.

Speaker3: Cross the T’s.

Speaker4: Absolutely.

Speaker1: So the consent forms are good. They’ve nobody [00:41:05] now. Nobody’s. To do a weekend course and implants. They might do a weekend course in aligners, [00:41:10] but they’re certainly not going to do it in implants. And so the people who are doing implants are [00:41:15] not people who are doing them, you know, once, once a year, they’re doing them pretty frequently. [00:41:20] They’re pretty skilled. They don’t take risks unless they are calculated risks. And the [00:41:25] patient’s informed at all times. So I think, you know, the GDC have got guidance. [00:41:30] The the Associate Dental Implantologists got implant got guidance. And so people go into [00:41:35] it with their eyes open and they do they are pretty skilled now when they do implants. And so [00:41:40] when something goes wrong, it tends to be because an implant failed. Um, uh, you know, it has an integrated. [00:41:45] So they’re giving the money back. And so it’s it’s never it’s, you know, it’s not hugely [00:41:50] dramatic stuff. Um, so it’s actually just run of the mill stuff. It’s, it’s, you know, um, [00:41:55] you didn’t tell me about the tooth. Might need a crown afterwards. It broken and [00:42:00] that root canal treatment. So it’s really almost mundane stuff. And it’s not the the [00:42:05] stuff you think this is going to cost a lot of money. So. So the perils thing is also, [00:42:10] again, slightly overblown. I don’t think there’s as much peril claims as there might [00:42:15] have been or could have been.

Speaker1: There are a couple of really odd cases. But and the thing about perio [00:42:20] is, interestingly and you know, when I lecture on it, I was in terms of perio, it is [00:42:25] probably the easiest thing to mitigate risk for because all you need to do is [00:42:30] a diagnose it. Take the relevant radiographs, tell the patient [00:42:35] and do some sort of treatment, you’re there. Whereas whereas pretty well every other aspect of [00:42:40] dentistry is, is actually requires a lot of technical skills which can go wrong. So you do [00:42:45] end up it’s pretty obvious you’ve done something wrong because look at the radiograph. Uh, if you if you’ve [00:42:50] missed some calculus on somebody’s teeth, it’s not very easy to pick up. Um, all, [00:42:55] all the uh, the treatment hasn’t succeeded. Well it’s probably down to the [00:43:00] patient. So I think that’s so, so in a sense, the those issues are not, uh, perils. [00:43:05] Easy one to resolve. And I think part of the problem is the reason why is there still claims [00:43:10] knocking around because of the system. It’s the NHS system that people shortcut it. And the [00:43:15] Bsp’s done a fantastic job in trying to address those, uh, with some [00:43:20] excellent advice about phasing, treatment, etc., etc.. So so I think we shouldn’t see [00:43:25] too many cases going forward.

Speaker3: So then what is the problem? Is it is it [00:43:30] where is the current issue? Is it young dentists. Not enough training in ortho [00:43:35] take on, but cases more complicated than.

Speaker1: I think those are. I think the things [00:43:40] that are coming up are the two big things we think are coming up are going to be [00:43:45] aligners, aligner therapy, um, where and is probably consent [00:43:50] patients didn’t know they’re going to end up with having interproximal reduction. They’re going to have their teeth thinned down. [00:43:55] They didn’t. They said it’s going to be six months. It’s actually nine months or 12 months. Didn’t actually didn’t work [00:44:00] out as well as I wanted to. So the expectations are higher. And the other thing we are [00:44:05] a little bit concerned about is, is tooth surface loss, failure to diagnose two surface loss. [00:44:10] And because, you know, when I when I started a [00:44:15] 30 years ago, two surface loss was well based. Just monitor it, take some take some study [00:44:20] models and just keep an eye on it because it’s pretty tricky stuff. Just make a diagnosis, try and work out what’s causing it. [00:44:25] Tell them to stop drinking acidic stuff and you’d be fine. Uh, don’t do anything about it. Now, [00:44:30] you know, we’re moving towards actually some interventive treatment. Um, you can use composite. You don’t have to use, uh, uh, [00:44:35] crown and bridge. Um, and actually, you probably ought to be doing something because those teeth are going to wear [00:44:40] away quite quickly. So. So I’ve been with you for the last 20 years and you’ve done nothing.

Speaker1: Why didn’t [00:44:45] you do anything for me? Well, it wasn’t we wasn’t very. It wasn’t painful. You didn’t want anything done about it. But [00:44:50] you never asked me. You didn’t diagnose it, did you? And I think that’s the potential [00:44:55] for the future. When patients say, right, I now you’ve now diagnosed. I need, um, [00:45:00] this full mouth rehab, uh, lots of anterior build ups of teeth. So I’ve been [00:45:05] seeing this the last ten years. Well, so wasn’t this there before? Well, it was there before, but I didn’t think about [00:45:10] it. So what are you doing about it? So I think those those conversations are going to be harder to manage [00:45:15] when you’ve been in establishing a practice. And I think that’s the challenge. You know, it’s a challenge for me in my own practice. [00:45:20] I’ve been there for 30 years. I see patients and and it’s the it’s the [00:45:25] it’s interesting because, you know, people talk about, you know, when when you retire suddenly somebody the other day [00:45:30] said, oh, you know, what advice would you give me before? You know, I’m thinking about retiring in the next couple of years. What advice would you give me? [00:45:35] And it illegally. And the advice I’d give to them and to everybody else is treat your patient as [00:45:40] though it’s the first time they’ve ever seen them, because you look at it and thinking, oh, God, okay, [00:45:45] um, there’s a whole lot of stuff I haven’t done anything about or should have done something [00:45:50] about or warn the patient about.

Speaker1: Because if I leave, if this is the last time I see the patient, they see somebody else in six months time [00:45:55] or a year’s time, will they know why I left that route there? Will they know why [00:46:00] I haven’t crowned that tooth? Will they know why we’ve decided that we’re going to leave these particular [00:46:05] teeth in the situation they are? Because if I don’t have good notes, the patient not going to remember, and [00:46:10] the next day it’s going to say, oh, no, what? Did you know what Mr. Crews have been doing for you for the last ten years? Because the amounts, the mess [00:46:15] and every one of us will have done, done things for patients where you think, [00:46:20] oh, God, okay, I shouldn’t really have done that. It hasn’t worked out as well as I have. But, you know, it is what [00:46:25] it is. But somebody else looking at it might think, okay, this is a very odd treatment [00:46:30] for this particular patient, but a high risk dentistry, why do they do that. So so I think that’s so, [00:46:35] so I think the big thing there’s no big I think [00:46:40] for us it is probably going to be the the aligners.

Speaker1: Because in the same way [00:46:45] that implants might have been an issue, they they became less an issue because of the training and because [00:46:50] of the involvement of the dentist. Now it’s very much the line is anybody can do it because frankly, [00:46:55] it’s taking impression. Send it off, should be fine. Somebody else is doing it. And I think that’s where if you [00:47:00] lack the and there are, there are better and better courses now which uh go [00:47:05] through run by orthodontists run in a very clinical way. Um, recognising [00:47:10] that actually it’s not just an aligner. There is a other dimensions to this treatment. And knowing [00:47:15] where the limitations are is quite important. But so I think I, you know, I [00:47:20] advise dentists to think quite seriously about doing longer longitudinal [00:47:25] courses if they’re going to pick up those sort of things in the same way they did. They did implants because [00:47:30] there is very much this. Me too. I’ve. To do what everybody else is doing it up. I’m going to be left behind [00:47:35] unless I do the facial aesthetics, unless I do the the the aligners, unless [00:47:40] I do cosmetic dentistry, unless they do build up, unless I do composite vineyards. I’m going [00:47:45] to be left behind. I think that’s that’s the challenge for us.

Speaker3: And I think one, one thing [00:47:50] that a lot of dentists find annoying is when indemnity settles, [00:47:55] even though everyone knows that they’re not at fault. Are we past [00:48:00] the peak of that behaviour, or is that is that I mean, I know probably [00:48:05] boils down to a financial decision of keeping something out of court, you know, as [00:48:10] the priority. But where are we at with that?

Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, I think they [00:48:15] I mean, I know, um, a number of mutuals have been accused of that [00:48:20] in the past, and that was very much my view that we wouldn’t do that when we got to be the indemnity, [00:48:25] because we wanted to make sure that, you know, we wouldn’t settle without your consent. We wouldn’t do [00:48:30] anything without your permission. And we still hold that view, because if you [00:48:35] and often, you know, the member will know, the dentist [00:48:40] will know more about that case than we ever will. They treat that patient. And if they think in their heart [00:48:45] of hearts, they think, you know what? Yeah, I did screw up, basically. Um, you know, let’s just settle it. Other [00:48:50] people say, yeah, I did do something wrong, but actually there was this, this, this, this, this. And there’s a whole other [00:48:55] circumstance now, and Mars is right. Fantastic. Okay, you give me that ammunition, I’ll go straight back to [00:49:00] our claims team and at RSA, and they’ll knock it back. And and interestingly, [00:49:05] our insurers RSA are very much of that view. They, they’re not going to settle, [00:49:10] uh, just because it needs to be settled on good terms because they want the best result [00:49:15] for the member. And with our help and assistance and with [00:49:20] the with the the dentists involvement, we’re more than happy to to defend those cases where the defensible, [00:49:25] um, but you know, but also sometimes you have to take the dentist [00:49:30] to uh, for them to look at it.

Speaker1: And it came back to the same, same issue about, you know, shame. Nobody [00:49:35] wants to admit their mistakes. But if you take them gently through how a lawyer might look [00:49:40] at it, it it opens their eyes to thinking, okay, yeah, a lawyer might [00:49:45] have a different view to this. And therefore there is a a breach of duty. There is a loss [00:49:50] as a result of it, and there’s a causal result, uh, result of it basically. So, so I think that’s [00:49:55] we’re probably past that peak because, because I think mutuals and recognising [00:50:00] that dentists don’t like that, just settling for the sake of settling. But but you know, you do you [00:50:05] do it for pragmatic reasons sometimes because the member themselves says, and [00:50:10] sometimes the other way around. The member says, you know, I want to settle. I want to give the money back. And you’re thinking, why [00:50:15] are you giving the money back? You know, I have a number of sort of existential conversations with people [00:50:20] and you say, well, what are your records? They’re really good. You get consent. Yes, or get consent. [00:50:25] And so the tooth flared up after that root canal treatment. [00:50:30]

Speaker1: Yeah. And they’ve gone somewhere else. Yeah. I want to give the money back so. Well yeah. But you warned them about that didn’t you. [00:50:35] Yeah. The consent form. Perfectly fine. So why are you giving the money back? Oh, because I don’t want any more trouble, I said, but [00:50:40] you’ve done everything right. We lecture hour after hour about consent. You’ve done everything we expect you [00:50:45] to do. And now you say, give the money back. I can understand you want the hassle, but that doesn’t make sense. [00:50:50] So in a sense, you’re kind of almost persuading the member to say, well, I’m happy to do [00:50:55] it, but. But you do so on the basis that you’ve done the right thing. This is just a goodwill gesture. [00:51:00] It’s not because you’ve done anything wrong. And so so I find it equally, uh, equally, [00:51:05] um, frustrating, frustrating and challenging when patients when the member [00:51:10] says, I want to settle, you’re thinking, I’ve looked at your records. They’re perfectly fine. Everything you’ve done [00:51:15] is perfectly reasonable. What a reasonable dentist would do. So why are we settling? And the answer is going to [00:51:20] be, I just don’t want hassle. I just yeah, I’ll give them back the money back. It’ll be done. He said. Okay, [00:51:25] fine, I’m happy to do that. But, um, it wasn’t necessarily my advice to do that.

Speaker2: This [00:51:30] is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you [00:51:35] get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:51:40] hosts. Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:51:45]

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened [00:51:50] to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through [00:51:55] and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some [00:52:00] value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing. And [00:52:05] if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so [00:52:10] so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget our six star rating.

Speaker1: The most important thing is a practice which is well run, has a principal who is present [00:00:05] and cares about the practice. I think no one will ever care about your business as much [00:00:10] as the business owner. And the practices which are really well run, have hands on owners. You know [00:00:15] that they’re on the ground, they’re making sure the staff are fine. They’re making sure all the materials you need are there. [00:00:20] They’re communicating with everyone you know. You can have the best practice manager in the world. And you know, that is also [00:00:25] very effective because again, practice managers do wonderful jobs that I think having a good practice manager [00:00:30] is, is, you know, it’s like gold dust. But yeah, it’s first of all how the practice [00:00:35] owner runs the business themselves. Then it’s the staff. You know, for me personally, [00:00:40] as someone who travels between so many surgeries, having a good nurse is absolutely [00:00:45] key. The nurses are the backbone of every practice, in my opinion, and the practices [00:00:50] which operate well have good nurses, nurses who are treated well.

Speaker2: This [00:00:55] is Dental [00:01:00] Leaders. The podcast where you get to go one [00:01:05] on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your [00:01:10] hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki. [00:01:15]

Speaker3: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Doctor Navi onto [00:01:20] the podcast. Mbe is a specialist endodontist who works at [00:01:25] just eight practices in London, all of them in central London, all of them very [00:01:30] high profile friends of mine, many of them friends of mine. And it’s nice to [00:01:35] go into the specialities a little bit and find out your story. Welcome [00:01:40] to the podcast, buddy.

Speaker1: Good evening Payman. It’s a privilege and honour to [00:01:45] be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker3: A pleasure man. My pleasure. Sorry. I’m listening. This, this this podcast [00:01:50] tends to be more like, uh, beginning of your life to the end. So, like, [00:01:55] where were you born? Is the usual. Usual. First question. But. But lately, [00:02:00] I’ve been wanting to just ask the question I want to ask straight away. And then and then and then [00:02:05] we’ll go and then we’ll go backwards. Yeah. So. And really the question is around specialising. [00:02:10] Did you always know that you were going [00:02:15] to be a specialist.

Speaker1: So as you learn throughout this podcast, [00:02:20] my decisions early on weren’t always based on the most logical [00:02:25] and calculated reasons. So, um, [00:02:30] I think the initial attraction to Endo was in my third [00:02:35] year of dental school. My first endo case was a upper seven with [00:02:40] uh 90 degree curved palatal room. First one, first one. Yeah. So so obviously [00:02:45] I couldn’t do it myself. So cut a long story short in comes along, um, my [00:02:50] sort of endo tutor at the time, who was this very suave, [00:02:55] good looking Italian man who everyone, all the girls used to fancy. And he comes along, [00:03:00] brings his microscope in, and he sits there, bends the files, and [00:03:05] he looks really, really cool at what he’s doing. And I was just fascinated at this guy. I was like, wow. Like, you know, I was just [00:03:10] impressed by him as a person and then by what he managed to achieve by [00:03:15] treating that tooth and that canal like everything else in dental school at that point seemed mundane [00:03:20] compared to what this guy did. And I was just like, wow, I want to be him.

Speaker3: The [00:03:25] first endo amazing. Yeah. Which way did you study?

Speaker1: Uh, guy’s [00:03:30] King’s College London. Yeah. That’s. Yeah.

Speaker3: And so from that point, did you think I’m [00:03:35] going to focus a little bit on endo? But I’m really the question of specialising where I’m going with it because a [00:03:40] lot of people have that question of should they or shouldn’t they. And some people decide very early [00:03:45] on they are going to specialise. They just don’t know in what. And other people it almost happens by accident. Yeah. [00:03:50]

Speaker1: So that was the initial attraction with Endo. And actually when I left dental school, I still liked [00:03:55] it though I actually did as part of my case press, um, a retreatment, which, you know, most people [00:04:00] don’t get to do. Um, I then left dental school. Um, I will go into [00:04:05] that later if you want, but I did, uh, did my job, went into practice, [00:04:10] uh, put my hand in almost everything. So I’ve done all sorts of courses from implant dentistry, [00:04:15] short terme, ortho, you name it. And actually, I’m sad to say, for a while, [00:04:20] um, NHS system put me off endo and again, we can go into some detail [00:04:25] there as well later as to why that happened. But I thought about all [00:04:30] the different specialities and eventually came back around to Endo. The reason I chose endo was [00:04:35] a few different things. I mean, I always wanted to be very, very good at something. Um, [00:04:40] so specialism was kind of on the cards with Endo. I [00:04:45] love looking at things very closely, even when I was a GP. My head was always in the patient’s [00:04:50] mouth trying to see exactly what’s going on. I bought a three and a half times magnification [00:04:55] loupes, which, um, you know, wasn’t enough. And, you know, once I, [00:05:00] you know, got a peek through a microscope, I was like, wow. It was like a whole different world. The other thing is, obviously [00:05:05] it’s it’s this it’s, uh, it’s probably one of the most, if not the most complex [00:05:10] area of dentistry, and it’s the ability to be doing this thing, which is really [00:05:15] hard that, you know, not everyone can do. And you spend, you know, a lot of [00:05:20] time and effort doing it. And it gives you both the sort of instant gratification of seeing the case [00:05:25] once it’s done, you know, looking at those beautiful white lines that you’ve painted and of course, [00:05:30] the long terme gratification of then reviewing the patients, seeing the lesions healed, seeing the tooth is still there. [00:05:35] So those are generally the things that attracted to me to the speciality itself. Really. [00:05:40]

Speaker3: Tell me about when. When was it that you decided to be a dentist in the first place?

Speaker1: So, [00:05:45] um, as someone with an Iranian heritage, I was brainwashed [00:05:50] as a child to become a doctor, so you [00:05:55] know how it goes. So I remember when I was about five years old, I was blowing my, uh, birthday cake candles. [00:06:00] And my wish was, I want to be a doctor when I grow up. I didn’t even know what a doctor was, but I knew I wanted to be one. So, [00:06:05] um. So that was sort of upbringing.

Speaker3: Were you born here?

Speaker1: I [00:06:10] was born in London. Yeah, I was born in London. Mhm. And um. Yeah. So [00:06:15] I had that in my mind. Then I went to school. Um, I was, I was always pretty [00:06:20] good at school and pretty good at sciences, but my passion was actually music. [00:06:25] Mhm. I picked up a guitar when I was 12 years old, became obsessed with that, started, you [00:06:30] know, playing in bands. And I remember we had an aptitude test in school where, you [00:06:35] know, they did a bunch of tests and then they asked you what you want to be. And as my career choice, I [00:06:40] must have put a rock musician or something like that. So the school wrote a letter to my parents [00:06:45] saying, we’re very concerned about our future aspirations because we don’t think he has a [00:06:50] realistic, um, outlook. So anyway, cut a long story short. It came to this sort of time where [00:06:55] the Ucas application was due and I was like, okay, I’ve got to get serious about this. So [00:07:00] what I did is, um, I knew I was going to go into the medical field because I was, you know, conditioned [00:07:05] that way. And, um, so I thought, let me actually go and see what this is about. Let me see [00:07:10] what the word doctor means. So I went and did work experience at a GP surgery. [00:07:15] And the GP’s there seem didn’t seem very happy. Uh, and they told [00:07:20] me, please don’t become a doctor unless you really, really love medicine.

Speaker1: I was like, [00:07:25] okay, um, I went to a, uh, hospital pharmacy department and all I was [00:07:30] doing was stacking shelves, and I was like, that’s really not what I want to be doing. I went to Imperial [00:07:35] College, uh, research labs to see what the sort of researchers are doing there. And [00:07:40] again, there was just it just seemed really isolated. And, you know, I’ve always been a people’s person, and [00:07:45] I just didn’t like that sort of isolation. So finally I went to work, shadowed [00:07:50] one of my mum’s friends who was a dentist, and she was sitting there with a radio playing [00:07:55] in the background music, which is obviously, you know, one of my passion. And I just saw, [00:08:00] you know, smiling, talking to patients like, you know, she just seemed very sociable and happy in what she [00:08:05] was doing. And again, like I said, most of my reasons were based on a lot of logic. I just [00:08:10] I just looked at her and I was like, you know what? That’s what I want to be doing. So, um, so that’s that’s what got me into [00:08:15] wanting to choose dentistry. And obviously I was I was good with my hands, you know, I was a musician, [00:08:20] um, the whole sort of artsy, crafty parts of the thing attracted to me as well. So I picked [00:08:25] dentistry.

Speaker3: And did you consider leaving London or. Not at all?

Speaker1: Um, [00:08:30] I’ve always been. Okay, so I actually lived in Iran for six years. So. So [00:08:35] at, uh, the age of nine, me and my mum moved to Iran, and [00:08:40] I studied there for six years. We’d come back in the summers, but I [00:08:45] was there for six years studying, and there were probably some of the best years of my life, to be honest, it [00:08:50] was completely just the schooling system in Iran is so different to here. And, you know, I [00:08:55] made such an amazing group of friends, um, some some of whom I’m still friends with to till today. [00:09:00] And it was a really great experience, um, to experience that culture completely different.

Speaker3: How [00:09:05] did that how did that even come about? Like you were sitting in London. What happened?

Speaker1: So I [00:09:10] was told by my parents that they wanted me to experience the Iranian [00:09:15] schooling system and upbringing, and later discovered that their marriage wasn’t going that well. So, [00:09:20] so so, yeah. So, so they just wanted a break basically. And uh, yeah, that that [00:09:25] was the reason for that. But that’s what I was told at the time and I yeah, my dad still claims his part. [00:09:30] True. So, so so yeah. Um, so [00:09:35] you come.

Speaker3: Back at 16.

Speaker1: So I came back here at 15, 15, 16 for your first year of GCSE. [00:09:40] That was the 1998, I think. And yeah, started uh, [00:09:45] my GCSEs. I was really excited when I was coming back, I was telling all my friends because, you know, in Iran the [00:09:50] schools are all single sex. Um, so I was telling all my friends that I’m going to be going to school girls, this, [00:09:55] that or the other. And my dad comes and puts me straight into all boys Catholic school. So yeah. So [00:10:00] I didn’t get those perks there. But but yeah.

Speaker3: So [00:10:05] I went to Catholic school too. At one point it was. Yeah, the it was [00:10:10] the only school that would let us in mid midterms, you know, like we were running away [00:10:15] from Iran and like the one school that would let us in was just very, very strict Catholic school in um Gloucester [00:10:20] Road just off Gloucester Road. Um, yeah. I learnt a lot about the Bible.

Speaker4: Yeah, [00:10:25] I got an A.

Speaker1: In my religious studies, Catholic.

Speaker4: Catholic.

Speaker1: Christianity. [00:10:30] I went to confession a few times as well.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Yeah. My my memory the first [00:10:35] day of school was Ash Wednesday, first day of school. So I just [00:10:40] got there and they said, right, we’re going to church. And I was like, what the hell? And then you know what [00:10:45] Catholics did? They put a little cross on the on the, on the head. And I just couldn’t believe it was happening. I [00:10:50] was.

Speaker4: Scared. Yeah.

Speaker3: All right. So then university. Yeah. [00:10:55] Did you get in? You got in easily. Were you like a bookworm? You must have been right. [00:11:00]

Speaker1: Oh dear. Oh dear. So that’s that’s that’s one of, that’s the first, uh, sort of [00:11:05] failure of my life. So basically I went to my interviews. I got a. Unheard [00:11:10] of at the time offer from King’s College London, which was my first choice. I got an offer of ABB [00:11:15] back until my ACL, which was the first year of A-levels. [00:11:20] I was usually, as I said, always good grades. I got four A’s for my As. So [00:11:25] you know, I was pretty cocky, confident that I’m going to be fine. And then [00:11:30] I go in my A2 year and meet my first girlfriend and I fall in love. So obviously [00:11:35] being, um, silly 18 year old, I just started bunking school, hanging out with her. [00:11:40] All the rest of it left everything to the last minute, and I very sadly missed my grades to [00:11:45] go into the offer. So at that point, I had to make a decision of either redoing [00:11:50] my A-levels or going and doing another degree, and I couldn’t stand the prospect [00:11:55] of falling behind while my friends are going to uni. So I went and did biomedical science at King’s. Oh, [00:12:00] but then my luck came round because. So I went and did three years of biomedical sciences, [00:12:05] which I would like to say were valuable and equipped me with, [00:12:10] um, certain skills, but apart from the social side, really give me much.

Speaker1: So, [00:12:15] so no, I mean, it was it was good university experience, but I mean, I didn’t take a whole load away from the no [00:12:20] disrespect. I mean, if you want to go into sort of sciences and labs and stuff is good, but other than that didn’t give me [00:12:25] actually, I really enjoyed psychology. I have to say, I did psychology every year, which I found really interesting. But anyway, I was very, [00:12:30] very lucky because in 2005, when I finished my BSc, I got an offer for [00:12:35] to do dentistry at King’s again, and a month before I started my [00:12:40] first year, I got a letter from King’s. We were part of the first group at the time [00:12:45] in UK, which King’s was trialling for their four year dental programme, so I actually got straight [00:12:50] into the second year of dentistry. Now that programme is a graduate entry which a lot of universities are doing, but [00:12:55] I was the first batch that got selected for that. So basically I saved the year. I got a year back from, from, you [00:13:00] know, the years I wasted.

Speaker3: So it’s kind of you skipped the whole biochem physiology [00:13:05] anatomy piece. Yeah.

Speaker1: Basically. Yeah. So I skipped all of that and went straight into second year. Anatomy of the head and neck [00:13:10] scaling, giving each other ID blocks, all that. Yeah.

Speaker3: And so do I take it. In [00:13:15] this period you were still doing the music and you said DJing [00:13:20] and all that.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So I was still performing. So I had [00:13:25] my first taste of, uh, performance in rock bands at school, which I, which I really, really loved. It [00:13:30] was like one of the best experiences ever, uh, for me at the time. And, um, so and [00:13:35] when I went to uni, I was still doing, I was playing gigs, you know, guitar, like open mic nights. [00:13:40] We had a few band nights where I was performing with the guitar, um, and then in 2004. [00:13:45] So yeah, midway through the biomedical science degree, I got interested in DJing. So I [00:13:50] actually went to Iran one summer. I had a friend there who was a DJ who taught me basic beat matching, and [00:13:55] then I picked that up and came back to London. And I also had a part time job [00:14:00] as a student, as an event organiser. So we used to do sort of, um, parties, parties basically. [00:14:05] So I started DJing at our own parties slowly, slowly, and then yeah, picked [00:14:10] it up from there. And then I became a prolific DJ while I was at university [00:14:15] and then later on as well.

Speaker3: So are you just one of these successful [00:14:20] human beings who works hard, plays hard, like, can you pull it off? Because in my life I [00:14:25] think of like maybe three people who like, good at everything, [00:14:30] you know, or did it distract you and you failed? And what happened?

Speaker1: No, [00:14:35] actually, for some reason, I’ve always been very good at pulling [00:14:40] off, uh, exams last minute. So I remember when I was in dental school, I was literally promoting [00:14:45] like few parties a week, and I used to invite people that were studying dentistry and they were like, how do you get time? How do you [00:14:50] get time? But for some reason, I’m more of a practical learner. I used to pick up a lot in clinics. [00:14:55] I used to fall asleep in lectures, but then, you know, three, four weeks before [00:15:00] the exam, I’d lock myself in my room, I’d grow a beard and and just literally, like, suffer [00:15:05] and cram everything. And I used to do quite well in the exams, so, um. So. [00:15:10] Yeah.

Speaker3: So, so then you’re saying dental school? You found it. Okay. You didn’t find it [00:15:15] too difficult. You enjoyed yourself. You had a wonderful time.

Speaker1: Yeah. Dental school was good. I mean, I didn’t. [00:15:20] My socialising in dental school mainly was on the outside because I had this whole [00:15:25] other life as this, uh, sort of event organiser, DJ but, um, I did socialise with some [00:15:30] people from dental school and I had a great time there. Yeah. I mean it was, it was fun. I used to enjoy [00:15:35] clinics. I really like the practical side of dentistry and yeah, it went [00:15:40] it all went well. Really?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: I’m thinking about it, dude. Yeah. Like this sort of. I know what Tehran’s [00:15:45] like. Yeah. And and the combination of the street smart [00:15:50] that Tehran gives you. Yeah. And dental school and [00:15:55] DJing and all that. So do you recognise that period in your life that five, six years [00:16:00] in your life in, in Iran as a period where you really learned about people?

Speaker1: I would [00:16:05] say 100% like the just exactly as you say, the street smarts that you pick up. And Iran [00:16:10] is just something else compared to like when I came back to London, I was just, yeah, you’re on Toytown. [00:16:15]

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I remember.

Speaker1: And and even the education [00:16:20] system, like when I came back, my sciences were at such a high level in Iran that I didn’t I [00:16:25] literally didn’t study at all in my GCSEs, like, and I aced everything. Just just from what I [00:16:30] got from Iran, the.

Speaker3: Standard was higher.

Speaker4: There. Yeah.

Speaker1: Much higher sciences standards, much, much higher physics, [00:16:35] chemistry, biology, like this stuff are just literally maths. I just aced it without even opening [00:16:40] a barely opening a book. So. So yeah.

Speaker3: So. Okay, you did your [00:16:45] degree.

Speaker4: And then.

Speaker3: What did you.

Speaker4: Do?

Speaker1: So yeah, I [00:16:50] finished dental school. At the time I wanted to do it in London. But, [00:16:55] um, again, the year that I went for my interviews was the first [00:17:00] year that they introduced this sort of ranking system and national interviews, and [00:17:05] I got advice from a guy in the year above me. I was like, so what do I do when I go for these interviews? They’re [00:17:10] like, oh, just be yourself, you know, get on with the trainer. If they like you, they’ll they’ll let you in. So I [00:17:15] go sit in the interview, just, you know, completely unprepared. And they’re asking me, so what do you know about the [00:17:20] 7 or 8 pillars of clinical governance or whatever it was? And I was like, uh, what’s clinical [00:17:25] governance? So, so basically, I didn’t rank very well in my interviews. And I ended up [00:17:30] in the West Midlands in, uh, in a sleepy town called Stourport on Severn, uh, [00:17:35] for my, uh, which was actually a great experience, uh, because it [00:17:40] got me out of London, which I think is good. Uh, yeah. It’s good to go and see somewhere else. And, [00:17:45] um, it was a it was a really, really nice practice. Lovely trainer, [00:17:50] you know, completely. I had people in London, you know, they’d get pressurised to do certain things, hit certain [00:17:55] targets. This was like complete clinical freedom. No pressure. Really, really nice training environment. I used [00:18:00] to come back to London every weekend though, but so cool. Yeah, but [00:18:05] but but no, it was a great year and um, I so I did that year and uh, for my [00:18:10] second year, I did a Showmax job in Northwick Park Hospital in [00:18:15] London.

Speaker4: Yeah. Wow.

Speaker1: And back then they used to call that place the jungle, because [00:18:20] he’s used to be very, very disorganised and messy and [00:18:25] busy.

Speaker3: Busy hospital, isn’t it? Yeah.

Speaker1: Like full on, full on district general. [00:18:30]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: I have to go there. I have to go there sometimes. Um, and, um, [00:18:35] I always, every time I go there, I just think, man, everyone’s working so hard here [00:18:40] down to the Costa, you know, like everyone’s working their butts off and [00:18:45] the building, just like they. There isn’t even any way of maintaining that thing, right? It’s like it’s [00:18:50] so huge. It’s kind of I don’t know what’s gonna like. They’re gonna have to just, like, start all over again. [00:18:55]

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: It’s crazy. I mean, I’ve heard from the more recent, um, [00:19:00] sort of df2 shows that that it’s a lot better organised now, but, but, [00:19:05] but when, when I started, it was, you know, my first rotation was in A&E and [00:19:10] I remember for the, for the first probably 3 or 4 months every [00:19:15] day, I used to come back and go on the BJ jobs looking for associate jobs. I was like, I’m gonna quit, I’m gonna quit. It [00:19:20] was. But I have to say.

Speaker4: Um, it made a.

Speaker3: Man of you, right?

Speaker1: 100%. [00:19:25] It’s literally like going to the Army. It’s like, you know, like when they send the boys to army, it’s it’s [00:19:30] it’s it was hands down the hardest year of my professional life and probably the most valuable year [00:19:35] of my professional life.

Speaker3: So you were you were stitching faces up in A&E and then [00:19:40] assisting in big operations.

Speaker4: Trauma, cancer. So all of that.

Speaker1: So yeah. So I’ll [00:19:45] tell you a quick story about my first. It was my third day on my A&E rotation. I get a Bleep from [00:19:50] A&E and um, they’re like there’s a girl that was giving blood who fainted and [00:19:55] cut herself. So I walk into the room and she’s sitting there, a pretty 19 year old Iraqi girl [00:20:00] with a gauze on her forehead. And I’m like, okay, so what happened? She was, yeah, I was giving [00:20:05] blood. Blood. And then she takes the gauze off and I’m literally staring at her frontal bone. Like I can literally [00:20:10] see the front like a big laceration all the way down to her eyebrow. Wow. So I look at that [00:20:15] swallow and I’m like, just give me a minute. I’ll be back, run outside, call my SPR. I’m like [00:20:20] literally shaking. Like, oh my God, there’s a girl here. She’s got a laceration. I can see her frontal bone. And [00:20:25] he’s like, okay, stitch it up. Boom. Puts the phone down. So so [00:20:30] I’m like, okay. So I go back in there again, I’m like, let me see that [00:20:35] again. I look at it and I was about to stitch it. But then in my head I’m thinking, I’ve just come [00:20:40] out of dental school. This is a 19 year old girl. She’s got a whole life ahead of her. She needs to get married. I’m [00:20:45] going to literally make her look like Frankenstein.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So so I basically [00:20:50] went like, went to the department and I was like, I refuse. I’m like, I’m not going to do this. Which is a good decision. Svr [00:20:55] came did it cut? A long story short, fast forward to the end of the year. I was stitching up lacerations [00:21:00] like that, you know, like it was nothing. You know, open, open jaws, like, [00:21:05] you name it. And just just once you go back to practice after doing that, [00:21:10] teeth just seem like a doddle. Like, you know, it’s like, oh, it’s just a tooth, you know?

Speaker4: Nothing.

Speaker3: Nothing fazes you. [00:21:15]

Speaker1: Yeah. Like the cancer surgeries, raising flaps off, you know, various parts of the body, like [00:21:20] just. Yeah, it’s. I would strongly recommend it, even if you don’t want to specialise to anyone who [00:21:25] just wants to be a very confident dentist with. Excuse my language balls.

Speaker4: Exactly. [00:21:30]

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: Yeah, I did a job in Cardiff Royal Infirmary [00:21:35] and, um, if there was a rugby game on. Yeah. And there was [00:21:40] many rugby games on if it was Wales. England. Yeah. There would be just massive [00:21:45] number of like, you know, pint glasses smashed in people’s faces, like, [00:21:50] you know, bouncers. Bouncers have a lot to answer for here because the number of people at 3 a.m. [00:21:55] that would come in and say, bouncer, beat me up and say why? And they would go, no.

Speaker4: Exactly. [00:22:00] That’s why.

Speaker3: But if it was the [00:22:05] game, if it was a Wales Scotland game, there wouldn’t be anything like that. Really friendly, [00:22:10] you know. Yeah, but I know what you mean about making Man of You because I hated that job. [00:22:15] But it did make a man of me. Did you do it on purpose because you knew you [00:22:20] had to specialise?

Speaker4: Yeah, basically.

Speaker1: Yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to leave at that [00:22:25] point again, I was I hadn’t made my mind up 100% that I’m going to specialise, but [00:22:30] I wanted to leave the doors open. And at that time they were like, you know, you have to do a sort of show job. [00:22:35] So. So I went for that.

Speaker3: So. So what was your next move?

Speaker1: So next move was [00:22:40] I came to practice in London. I started working at three practices actually [00:22:45] as a GDP, and one of them was a sedation referral centre. So I picked up IV sedation pretty [00:22:50] quickly. I was using my max FAC skills, so I became quite good and interested at [00:22:55] oral surgery. I still would consider myself as having a special interest in oral surgery. I still do quite, you know, bits [00:23:00] of it here and there. And so I was doing sort of referral work for IV [00:23:05] sedation, oral surgery and then just mainly it was mixed, but [00:23:10] mainly NHS at the time. And then I did various courses. [00:23:15] I got interested a bit in short terme also like aligners and also [00:23:20] implants. I became quite interested in. I did a couple of courses in implants and that’s the direction [00:23:25] I wanted to go in. Initially. The reason I didn’t go down that direction was [00:23:30] I, after doing the courses, the practices that I worked in, they the principles [00:23:35] were implant dentists. So I found that I wasn’t getting the volume of work. [00:23:40] And you know, if you want to get good at something, you have to do a lot of it. And, um, [00:23:45] you know, it just wasn’t getting the volume of work that I needed. So, um, I was like, okay, [00:23:50] I need to, I need to go and specialise in something. So I [00:23:55] thought I was at one point going to go specialise in oral surgery. I did actually apply. I didn’t get in. [00:24:00] And then eventually I went back to Endo and [00:24:05] um, I decided to go for Endo and that was four years into being [00:24:10] in practice. So I practised for four years as a as a general dentist. And [00:24:15] then I got into my, uh, four year part time specialist training back at Guy’s [00:24:20] in wait.

Speaker4: Wait wait wait wait.

Speaker3: Before you go any further, though, in that four years is still you knew [00:24:25] you were going to specialise. Dope or not or not? I guess you were starting to [00:24:30] make some money now.

Speaker1: Yeah, exactly. So? So I wanted to. So that’s the thing. So yeah, my next [00:24:35] goal was to buy a property. So like, all my friends, you know, my friends have done three year degrees. They’re already miles ahead [00:24:40] of me. And they were they already had their properties. And I was like, I need to save and buy a property. So, you know, I lived [00:24:45] with my mum for a few few years, saved some money, bought a flat and um, [00:24:50] and then, yeah, I, I really hated the fact the prospect [00:24:55] of going to study again. Like, I’m not someone who typically enjoys studying and exams. I hate [00:25:00] exams, so. So, you know, just actually deciding to go back and put myself [00:25:05] through that was a big decision. And, um, and I was reluctant to [00:25:10] do it. But I suppose another reason why I ended up doing it as well was I really [00:25:15] wanted to get out of the NHS system, because I really didn’t like the NHS system. Um. [00:25:20] Yeah.

Speaker3: So then when you were looking at post-grad, the [00:25:25] calculations that you’re making are, you know, money calculations, [00:25:30] time calculations, is this whole thing going to be worth it in the end? And [00:25:35] you never really know whether you’re going to be, like, happy as an endodontist until you become an endodontist. [00:25:40] I mean, there’s that sort of four years of is it four year course?

Speaker4: It’s either [00:25:45] part.

Speaker3: Time.

Speaker1: It’s four year part time or three year full time.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: You did four years part time. [00:25:50]

Speaker1: I did four years part time.

Speaker3: So you continuing as an associate in in these practices while [00:25:55] you did. So tell me about that life man. Is is that do you recommend that or. Now if someone came [00:26:00] to you would you say, listen, just drop everything. Do three years full on.

Speaker1: I would 100% [00:26:05] recommend four year part time.

Speaker4: And pay for your.

Speaker3: Life and stuff.

Speaker1: No, that [00:26:10] is part of it. But even if you have the money, you learn certain skills in hospital. [00:26:15] But hospitals are protected. Environment, right? So you try something, you know, you create a [00:26:20] ledge perforation, whatever you try and fix it, try 1 or 2 times. You can’t do it. You call [00:26:25] over the supervisor, he does it for you, right? You watch what he does, you pick it up, practices you where you [00:26:30] really you know, you’re in the deep end like some whatever happens, you have to deal with it, [00:26:35] right? So that’s when you really, really, in my opinion, hone the tips and tricks [00:26:40] that you pick up in hospital. And also in terms of getting jobs, like I started [00:26:45] off as an NHS GDP, I got my first endo referral job [00:26:50] midway through my first year. By the end of my second year, I had fully [00:26:55] given up general practice and I was working only sort of in endo referral practice. So I, [00:27:00] you know, so, so, so, so you so you hit the ground running massively like, you know, you’re already there’s [00:27:05] no transition. Like, you know, when you finish your specialist training, you’re already a specialist. You’ve been working as that. And [00:27:10] you know there’s no jump to make. It’s you’re there basically like.

Speaker3: In a way you’re like dentists [00:27:15] with special interests kind of thing while you’re studying. It’s interesting. Yeah, it’s a very good point, actually. [00:27:20] It’s a very good point. Um, so, so, so then the course itself, what [00:27:25] was the commitment to the course like? How much work was it? How many times do you have to turn up? What was what was the story. [00:27:30]

Speaker1: So in the first, uh, year, it’s three days a week because [00:27:35] you have up until sort of the middle of the second year. So the first one and a half years is about three days [00:27:40] a week. You’ve got seminars got to go to and then clinics. Clinics are two [00:27:45] days a week. Then from about midway through the second year, for the last two and a half years, it’s just two days a [00:27:50] week of mainly clinics. Sometimes you have seminars on a Friday as well. So it’s like you have to [00:27:55] go in on the odd seminar here and there. This is, by the way, the program at guy’s, the people who did it at the [00:28:00] Eastman, The Commitments a lot more because they’re a lot more academic there. So, you know, they have to [00:28:05] go in a lot more journal clubs at guy’s. The system is you sort of put [00:28:10] in what you want to take out, and a lot of it’s down to you, you know, they tell you what you have to read and you read [00:28:15] it in your own time. Um, so, so for me, again, being the last minute [00:28:20] person I am, I generally left things all to the last minute, which I wouldn’t recommend. Um, [00:28:25] now a clinical teacher. So I’ve got, you know, I’ve been teaching on the department for just over, oh, just over four [00:28:30] years. And I don’t recommend any of my students to do it that way, but it’s incredibly stressful. But that’s the way [00:28:35] I did it.

Speaker3: And at what point in that in that time? I mean, it [00:28:40] seems like a long, long time to teach Endo. And by the way, I know there’s [00:28:45] more to endo than Endo, right? That you’ve got all the apes ectomy piece and all that. Right? [00:28:50] Um, but at what point in that time does something click in your head? Is it early? Something [00:28:55] like clicks in your head, like endo clicks for you. Like you [00:29:00] feel like I know what’s going on. Is it early or is it late?

Speaker1: I think it’s [00:29:05] early. Like as soon as you pick up that microscope and you realise, you know, it’s like a [00:29:10] whole, it’s like, you know, picking up a telescope and looking into space, like, until you’ve worked with [00:29:15] a microscope, you don’t know what you don’t see. Like, you think, you know, even even something as basic as caries [00:29:20] removal. You think you remove the caries, but then you get under the microscope and you see what you really, [00:29:25] you know, leave behind. And it’s just it just elevates your practice to such [00:29:30] a different level. I literally I work exclusively with a microscope. I can’t even look into [00:29:35] a patient’s mouth without a microscope now. Like, even if it’s a check-up, I use a microscope. I don’t feel [00:29:40] confident looking in a patient’s mouth without a microscope. That’s because of the level of detail [00:29:45] I’m used to looking at. Um, and so.

Speaker3: If I want you to work with my practice, I absolutely [00:29:50] have to have a microscope. There’s no there’s no getting away from that.

Speaker4: No chance.

Speaker1: No chance. [00:29:55]

Speaker4: I.

Speaker1: Don’t yeah. No chance. Yeah. And I get and I get that offer as well. You know people who want to set up you know they [00:30:00] want to set up a low cost sort of level. They say, you know, can you start off until we build up the list. But [00:30:05] on my I, in my humble opinion, high level specialist endodontic [00:30:10] treatment is not possible without a microscope. And that is. And it doesn’t mean that you can’t. [00:30:15] You know, a lot of people work with loops and you can do, you know, many cases with loops, [00:30:20] but, you know, if you really want to provide a specialist service, when it comes down to it, that [00:30:25] tiny MM2 we split off, you know, a few millimetres down the hm1 or, you know, that instrument [00:30:30] which is broken and down in the root, you know, the real high level, that little crack that might [00:30:35] be on the root when you’re doing this, these things, you know, you really need a microscope. It’s not possible to do the service without a microscope. [00:30:40] And there’s so much more to endo than what people think. I mean, you can go into that if you want.

Speaker4: But. [00:30:45]

Speaker1: Yeah. So I mean, the first thing I would say that, [00:30:50] uh, you know, the first let’s say super power of endodontist is diagnosis, [00:30:55] okay. Amongst the specialists when it comes to dental pain, the [00:31:00] expert is an endodontist. So anyone who’s got any sort of pain in the head and [00:31:05] neck region that might be, you know, related to the mouth, should initially always see an endodontist to either [00:31:10] confirm or exclude dental pain. And when you get confident at diagnosis, it [00:31:15] just again, it just elevates you to this level and of of of I don’t know of [00:31:20] of confidence. Um, because you know, you can’t how can you treat something if you can’t diagnose [00:31:25] it. Right. And I have to say again, unfortunately, the majority of dentists [00:31:30] and doctors are actually not good at diagnosis. So again, if we just go [00:31:35] to sort of GP’s, you know, you go to the GP, I’ve got a sore throat, I’ve got this or [00:31:40] that. Here you go. There’s some antibiotics okay. And there’s nothing. And by the way there’s no there’s [00:31:45] no sort of mystery about diagnosis or anything that needs special skill that I have that someone else doesn’t. It’s [00:31:50] all the basic stuff. Everyone knows this. The skills that I use for diagnosis, apart [00:31:55] from possibly the microscope and cbct everyone learns as an undergraduate, [00:32:00] it’s just no one actually takes the time to meticulously go through all of those investigations [00:32:05] and special tests to come to that diagnosis.

Speaker1: And as an endodontist, you know, I book, [00:32:10] if someone comes to me for a pain diagnosis, the appointment might take one hour. You know, I will spend. [00:32:15] Depending on how complex it is, I’ll spend all the time, you know, to check every tooth to come to that diagnosis. So the first thing [00:32:20] is that, you know, accurate diagnosis and there’s so many complaints. So, so many, [00:32:25] um, issues regarding poor diagnosis and which, you know, people have gone they’ve ended up having [00:32:30] treatment which hasn’t worked because the diagnosis wasn’t correct. So the first part is diagnosis. And, [00:32:35] you know, by by exclusion, we’re also good at diagnosing non-dental issues. So [00:32:40] it’s things like atypical facial pain. You know I diagnosed some of them obviously, if I suspect that I refer [00:32:45] to an oral medicine consultant or a for formal diagnosis, but that’s the first, [00:32:50] um, sort of super skill that I would say an Endodontist possesses. Then, um, [00:32:55] moving on, obviously there’s there’s the root canal treatment itself, which is treating the canals. [00:33:00] Um, again, as I said, magnification is one thing. Um, the tactile sensation is [00:33:05] the other thing. Feel comes a lot into it, which we know about. And of course, sorry, [00:33:10] just my, um.

Speaker4: My cough already. And, [00:33:15] and, um, and.

Speaker1: Yeah, I mean, then then there’s a whole surgical side of it, [00:33:20] which I’m very interested in, given my background in, uh, oral and maxillofacial [00:33:25] surgery. There’s a surgical side of it. And the restorative side. Don’t forget most of the teeth. That or many [00:33:30] of the teeth that I get referred are broken down teeth, broken down teeth, which dentists [00:33:35] themselves can’t restore because the margin might be at the crestal level. I always, [00:33:40] before I attempted endo, completely build up the tooth first, so the tooth has to have a sound [00:33:45] four walled area for me to work in before I even consider it, you know, treatable [00:33:50] or restorable.

Speaker3: And that has to be your build up. You don’t you can’t trust someone else’s build up. [00:33:55]

Speaker4: Is going to be euro is.

Speaker1: Is unless I’m working with, um, you know, a dentist, [00:34:00] which I know is very skilled. And there are a lot of dentists now. Dentists. So, you know, they’re both, you [00:34:05] know, Prosthodontist and GP’s. I work with some very, very talented GP’s, some of them who are working with microscopes [00:34:10] now as well, I have to say, and you know, they do fantastic work and um, unless I know the GP’s, [00:34:15] um, you know, fantastic at doing that. Um, all, all I need though, I need [00:34:20] obviously that we need to have enough of the sort of two structure to, uh, get adequate isolation [00:34:25] because you don’t want the tooth to be reinfected. There are some dentists who have like, a deep margin and they’re [00:34:30] doing a root canal. You can’t have that because it’s getting it contaminated by saliva. But yeah, but but [00:34:35] generally, yes, I will take charge and I will do the full core build up which, which the GDP [00:34:40] is majority love as well. I send the tooth back always with a composite core, ready [00:34:45] for them to just cut the margin and put a crown on it.

Speaker3: And so look, it’s quite interesting [00:34:50] isn’t it? Because you must the general dentist who does Endo [00:34:55] must be getting better at it because of rotary instruments. And all of [00:35:00] that is I mean, endo has done it to much higher standard by general dentists than it ever used to be in my day, when it was hand [00:35:05] instruments. Right at the same time, there’s loads of dentists who just choose not [00:35:10] to do endo at all. Um, and I guess that number’s increasing too, right? So [00:35:15] you must the referrals must be like two types, like one very difficult [00:35:20] type because, you know, the general dentist didn’t manage it because and then you’ve got the basic ones. Right. [00:35:25] So, so when it comes to your week. How often [00:35:30] do you end up in a situation where, like, you know, you’re not sure which way [00:35:35] to go or.

Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, you know what? You hit the nail on the head. That’s exactly it. You know, you’ve [00:35:40] got the mixture of cases. You’ve got dentists who don’t do root canals at all, who send you these lovely [00:35:45] primary endos which are then. Yeah, that’s that’s an easy, smooth day. [00:35:50] And then I’ve only got the ones who attempt an end render, cause a couple of perforations. [00:35:55]

Speaker4: And then send you the case.

Speaker1: And think you’re gonna the magician’s gonna fix it. [00:36:00] So. So, yeah, I mean, I get a mixed bag of those and, you know, it’s just it’s just the whole swings [00:36:05] and roundabouts things, right? So you get you get the easy ones, which you just breeze through and then you get the more difficult [00:36:10] ones which you. Yeah.

Speaker4: But what is the what.

Speaker3: Is a very difficult case to you. Is that, is that really [00:36:15] it. Perforations you have to repair.

Speaker1: No I would say probably the most [00:36:20] difficult error. So one difficult case that I would get is um, uh, [00:36:25] maybe like a very curved root, which has been very badly ledged. [00:36:30] Um, yeah. So, so if, if a tooth, if a, if a root is very curved [00:36:35] sometimes even for, you know, the endodontist, we have to be very, very careful not to ledge it. [00:36:40] And then you got the GDP. Who goes in with like a something big, like a size 25 K file basically [00:36:45] completely ledges that canal. And then we have to go around and fix it. In those cases, you know, sometimes it’s [00:36:50] near near impossible to fix. Again, as endodontists, um, we’ve got different skill sets. It depends [00:36:55] where that root is. If it’s a typically it’s a root of a upper molar, in which case [00:37:00] if you really can’t fix it, you just do an episiotomy and just cut that curved part off and that’s it. You can still we’ve got, [00:37:05] you know, we’ve got all sorts of ways of retaining teeth these days.

Speaker4: So and then.

Speaker3: How, [00:37:10] how, how can you like add value as an endodontist. I mean what’s, what’s what’s a [00:37:15] great endodontist and what’s a not great end if I, if I’m referring to three different endodontist [00:37:20] versus where’s your value add. Is it in the soft skills as well?

Speaker4: Absolutely. [00:37:25]

Speaker1: I think the I think a big part of being uh, well, both [00:37:30] a good dentist, but especially an endodontist comes down to psychology. That’s actually probably [00:37:35] one of the parts of the job that I enjoy the most. So, you know, [00:37:40] as a, as a general dentist or other specialists, you know, you get to meet the patient a number of times, [00:37:45] build the rapport with them. Um, I always joke and those like a one night stand, you [00:37:50] a patient comes in and, you know, often they’ve met you, you know, [00:37:55] either met you once or not met you at all. Most, most times. And, you know, they all come in with [00:38:00] this terrible, um, you know, uh, terrible idea or preconception of [00:38:05] of of, uh, of. Yeah. Then they come in nervous because or they’ve all heard, [00:38:10] you know, horror stories about endo and, you know, root canal is really painful and, you know, so so they come [00:38:15] in scared and you’ve got to, in a very short space of time, build that rapport with them [00:38:20] to calm them down, to, number one, accept the treatment. And it is, I think, the greatest [00:38:25] compliment when you know, if you finish the treatment, you take the rubber dam off. Either [00:38:30] the patient was snoring when the rubber dam was on. That’s that’s, that’s that’s that’s one of the compliments. Um, and [00:38:35] number two, which I hear very often is, oh my God, that really wasn’t as [00:38:40] bad as I thought it would be. Thank you very much.

Speaker4: But but is.

Speaker3: That is that because you are so kind [00:38:45] or is it because you’re doing something differently?

Speaker1: So let me let me in my opinion, [00:38:50] the reason why Endo is, has got this stigma around it, right is because [00:38:55] we know and it’s difficult, right? It’s it’s even me without a microscope, [00:39:00] looking into that dark hole and trying to find canals is difficult. Right. So patients [00:39:05] so dentists, most endo in the world is done by general dentists and they don’t have microscopes and [00:39:10] barely some of them don’t have magnification. So when the dentist sees the patient the dentist [00:39:15] is already, you know, a bit nervous and you know, the struggling a little bit. And I think the [00:39:20] patients, you know, our patients perceive are or they sense our, um, our, [00:39:25] our psychological state and how anxious we are a lot more than what we think. So, [00:39:30] um, you know, if a dentist is struggling and quite often, you know, they want numb the patient [00:39:35] very well or won’t take the time to numb the patient very well. So the treatment will be painful for the dentist, but [00:39:40] for the patient, sorry. And the dentist will be, you know, anxious and struggling while they’re doing the treatment. And the patient senses [00:39:45] that. And then afterwards, if something’s not done right, um, a patient will be in pain. [00:39:50] So there’s all sorts of this sort of perfect storm of things which add, add to [00:39:55] this bad experience. And that’s why Endo’s got this bad reputation, and then it goes wrong and the tooth [00:40:00] has to get extracted after all of that.

Speaker1: Right? So when you when you come to a specialist, you’re coming to someone who does this every [00:40:05] single day. So first of all, I’m very, very calm. And I have to say endo is [00:40:10] also a very it’s it’s connected to the psyche of the, the endodontist as [00:40:15] well. If one day, for whatever reason, I’m not calm, my treatment will not go [00:40:20] as smoothly as the days that I am calm. So I work a lot on myself to be very, very relaxed. When I’m seeing my patients, [00:40:25] you know, I’ll, I’ll go to the gym in the morning. I’ll do breathing. Sizes, you know, [00:40:30] even while I’m treating, you know, deep breaths. Very, very important. Like, if anything’s, you know, you have [00:40:35] to you have to master the art of patience, uh, as an endodontist and and just [00:40:40] giving that, uh, you know, giving that smooth experience to the patient, um, is, and, you know, [00:40:45] they can sense it. They can sense your calm. You’ve got the rubber dam there, you know, they’re relaxed. Are [00:40:50] you numbing up? Well, good anaesthesia is the other thing which is very, very important. So, you know, I take my time, [00:40:55] um, to numb patients up. I’ve got various techniques that I go through to.

Speaker4: Make sure I’ve been.

Speaker3: I’ve [00:41:00] been out of it for a while. Um, but in my day, you know, if if your le didn’t work [00:41:05] for a hot pulp, I guess you’d give another one first. The first thing [00:41:10] you do. And then there was the inter ligamental intraosseous as something changed.

Speaker4: No, [00:41:15] that’s more or less it.

Speaker1: Really. You want to give obviously an effective ID block, which we all know how that works. [00:41:20] Um, you give your um, depending on where the tooth is. Obviously we’re talking about lower tooth here. You know, your long buccal lingual [00:41:25] infiltration, intra ligamentous work really well. Um, intraosseous. But if it’s a [00:41:30] very, very, very hot pulp in some cases, whereas, you know, lots of inflammation or whatever you do that [00:41:35] LA is not getting there. What you do is you basically have to you have to again, it’s all about communication. [00:41:40] You tell the patient, look, you’re going to feel a little sharp, a pinch here. You basically enter the pulp. [00:41:45] They go out. And then as soon as as soon as you see that drop of blood, say, okay, I’m going [00:41:50] to numb you up now directly through the nerve, you’re going to feel one more pinch. And after that, you’re not going to feel anything. Put [00:41:55] the needle in with a lot of pressure. Give that anaesthetic directly into the pub. They’ll just feel [00:42:00] one pinch. And after that, intra pulp will works very, very effective for pulps. So [00:42:05] that’s that’s the, that’s the that’s the final straw. The intra pulpal.

Speaker3: With a lot of pressure. You [00:42:10] wouldn’t think a lot of pressure.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah yeah. Because because there’s a lot of information there. And and and [00:42:15] you want to give that with quite a bit of pressure in the pulp.

Speaker3: Is there, is there ever like [00:42:20] ever a time where you put something on it to settle it down or is that not a thing anymore. Let [00:42:25] it mix whatever it was.

Speaker4: Oh yeah.

Speaker1: Yeah. So so now we’re talking. Yeah. If it’s like just emergency management then yeah. [00:42:30] Once you’ve exposed the pulp, for example, you can put something like leather mix or add onto paste. These have both [00:42:35] got uh um steroid and anti antibiotic component to them. And then yeah you can go back and go [00:42:40] go back in again. But as an endodontist most often you know we’re doing all of this in sort of one session. [00:42:45] We do the pulp, we open up the pulp, we go and we do the end of most 90% of my endos are [00:42:50] single visit. So.

Speaker3: And why? Because that for because of contamination. [00:42:55]

Speaker1: I mean it’s it’s so.

Speaker3: It’s more efficient I guess. Yeah.

Speaker4: I mean it’s. [00:43:00]

Speaker1: I mean who wants to have a root canal twice. It’s more it’s and it’s, it’s more efficient. And there’s been [00:43:05] countless studies including cup 2 or 3 I think Cochrane reviews, which are [00:43:10] like the highest level of evidence on the outcome of single versus multiple visit endo. And there’s [00:43:15] basically no difference. So if you can do it in one visit, why don’t you do it in one visit? Just do it. Yeah. So so [00:43:20] if I can do it in one, unless there’s a big reason why I can’t do it in one visit, I’ll do it in one visit. [00:43:25]

Speaker3: And I’ve noticed for my sins I follow some endodontists. Yeah, I’ve noticed that the access [00:43:30] cavities are just getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Is that is that like an endodontist like thing like that? [00:43:35] How small can you make your access?

Speaker1: Yeah, the the ninja.

Speaker4: Access is always cool. [00:43:40] Yeah.

Speaker1: So I mean, yeah, um, it’s, it has become a little bit [00:43:45] of a trend and of course, look, conserving dentine is important, but the thing I [00:43:50] don’t like is when my postgrads come, you know, their first year postgraduate specialist training [00:43:55] and they’re doing a tiny access because they saw, you know, the endodontists do that on Instagram and I’m like, [00:44:00] look.

Speaker4: Learn, learn to walk before you fly.

Speaker1: Run like, you know. And it’s [00:44:05] actually it can actually work against you, especially when you’re starting out because you know, [00:44:10] it can all sorts of procedural errors. It increases the risk of file fracture it. You [00:44:15] can leave, you know, bits of necrotic pulp in. So it’s definitely not something I would recommend or [00:44:20] do. I mean I if I can make a conservative access and I can do it without any compromise, [00:44:25] I will do it. But you know, the difference between the, those sort of ultra conservative access [00:44:30] is the difference between a conservative and an ultra conservative. Access in terms of long tum outcome [00:44:35] has not been proven to be to be, you know, significantly different. So a lot of that sort [00:44:40] of ultra conservative work is for, I don’t know, Instagram dentistry in my opinion. [00:44:45]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: And we have it in every field. Yeah.

Speaker4: But but but look.

Speaker1: I think, I think I think social [00:44:50] media is great for again I always joke with my students, um, on the clinic I [00:44:55] say before an endo, we used to have success and failure and now we’ve got success, failure and Instagram [00:45:00] Insta.

Speaker4: Instagrams like them.

Speaker1: At the highest level. When when the case is Instagrammable, [00:45:05] it means, you know, it’s it’s it’s perfect. So it’s the category above success. [00:45:10]

Speaker4: It’s funny man.

Speaker3: Yeah. But and you know getting on to that most [00:45:15] dentists who post on Instagram are posting for patients. But you [00:45:20] guys are posting for dentists.

Speaker1: Yeah, that’s absolutely right.

Speaker4: Um, you know, it’s a.

Speaker3: Different it’s [00:45:25] a totally different way of doing it. Right. Because when you’re posting for patients. The, you know, people, [00:45:30] people, people often confuse this. They say, oh, I’ve seen it before and after, but I don’t see the bit [00:45:35] in the middle. Well, the patient doesn’t want to see the bit in the middle, right. Yeah, yeah. Um, but on your side, if [00:45:40] you suffer with sort of that perfection and that paralysis like you [00:45:45] have to worry about, I don’t want to put this out because my endodontic buddy might see something.

Speaker1: And [00:45:50] yeah, I think everyone who posts on Instagram has, has, has that. I mean, as [00:45:55] an as an endodontist you have that anyway you get you develop um, OCD, you know, I’ll [00:46:00] look at I’ll look at my cases and they’ll be like a little void somewhere. And, you know, I’ll be pissed off for [00:46:05] the.

Speaker4: Rest of the day, you know.

Speaker1: So, so which is not good.

Speaker4: I mean, it’s not.

Speaker1: And [00:46:10] again, we always teach it’s not about the why. And, you know, you have an ender which looks horrible and it’s [00:46:15] been there for 30 years with no lesion. And then you have an ender which looks perfect and it fails. So [00:46:20] it’s not really the white lines aren’t everything. You know, we’re dealing with bacteria and we have to prioritise the biology [00:46:25] over the, you know, our own sort of perfectionist, uh, aspirations. But yeah, absolutely. [00:46:30] You know, especially when it comes to posting, you know, you always want to post that case. I mean with me, I’ve, I’ve, [00:46:35] I was never a social media person. Um, I got sort of my arm got twisted [00:46:40] into it by, by Rona and uh, and.

Speaker4: And.

Speaker1: And and and another one of my colleagues, [00:46:45] Karina, who’s, uh, in, you know, big on Instagram and she’s a dentist. And, you know, they were [00:46:50] like, look, you know, you need to do this. So I only started my account about, I think, three years ago. And [00:46:55] I need to I know I’m always saving cases to post, but I don’t I don’t post anywhere near as much [00:47:00] as I should. Um, yeah. So yeah.

Speaker3: When, you know, [00:47:05] um, when you work in eight different practices. You [00:47:10] see a lot of different ways of running a practice.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: And, [00:47:15] you know, good and bad, right?

Speaker4: Absolutely.

Speaker3: And I’m sure you love [00:47:20] all your referrers. But. But tell me. Just give me a flavour of that. I mean, I [00:47:25] obviously I go to a lot of practices, so I see that myself, but I can’t really get [00:47:30] a real feel for it by visiting a practice and talk about bleaching. But when you work [00:47:35] somewhere, you really get a feel for the management style. [00:47:40] What are they willing to spend? What aren’t they willing to spend the way they handle patients [00:47:45] staff? Give me give me a flavour of the differences in different practices [00:47:50] and what you’ve learned.

Speaker1: Yeah, you’re 100% right. And I have to say, you know, the eight [00:47:55] practices that I’ve got now have probably been distilled from [00:48:00] something in the region of 2025 practices or more, maybe over the last, [00:48:05] God knows, five, six, seven years, which I’ve joined. And, you know, if I join a practice [00:48:10] and I don’t like the way it operates, I, you know, very respectfully sort of shake hands and bow [00:48:15] out, um, and, you know, what does that mean?

Speaker3: What does that mean? I don’t like the way it operates. I mean, [00:48:20] like, so I, you know, it could be as subtle as the way the nurse is treated [00:48:25] by the boss. You’re not going to bow out because of that, are you?

Speaker4: Um, yeah.

Speaker1: It’s everything. [00:48:30] So. So I start. So look a good the way a good practice is run. And, um, you know, the majority of practices [00:48:35] I work at now are well run. Um, you know, the. A reason why. [00:48:40] I used to work in a couple of practices which are bought by corporates, for example. And I think the, the, [00:48:45] the most important thing is a practice which is well run, has a principal who is [00:48:50] present and cares about the practice. I think no one will ever care about your business as [00:48:55] much as the business owner. And the practices which are really well run, have hands on owners. [00:49:00] You know that they’re on the ground, they’re making sure the staff are fine. They’re making sure all the materials [00:49:05] you need are there. They’re communicating with everyone you know. You can have the best practice manager in the world [00:49:10] and you know, that is that is also very effective because again, practice managers do wonderful jobs that I [00:49:15] think having a good practice manager is, is, you know, it’s like gold dust. But yeah, [00:49:20] it’s first of all how the how the practice owner runs the business themselves.

Speaker1: Then [00:49:25] it’s the staff. You know, for me personally, as someone who travels between so many surgeries, [00:49:30] having a good nurse is absolutely key. If if I’m working with a [00:49:35] nurse who doesn’t know where things are, for example, or, you know, has never done endo before, [00:49:40] which fortunately I rarely encounter these days, but you know, that will completely destroy my day [00:49:45] and not just destroy my day for my mood, but also reduce. You know, I I’ve [00:49:50] had to have this conversation with principals before who’ve, you know, not done what they’ve needed [00:49:55] to do to, for example, retain a good nurse. And I said, look, when you for [00:50:00] example, just just talking about me, if I’ve got a nurse who is not effective, I can’t [00:50:05] do all my endo’s in the single visit. Right? And I’m going to have to book a second visit to complete the endo. Just, [00:50:10] just one case of rebooking an endo is a loss to both me [00:50:15] and the practice enough to accommodate, you know, whatever you need to to have have that good nurse. So [00:50:20] a.

Speaker4: Good point.

Speaker1: Yeah. So so so you know you’ve got to think of it. And you know the nurses [00:50:25] are the backbone of every practice in my opinion. And and the practices which operate well [00:50:30] have good nurses, nurses who are both treated well. And it’s not hard to treat [00:50:35] a nurse well. Right. It’s just it’s just the little things like, you know, just be nice, you know, buy them lunch [00:50:40] every now and again. Give them a little gift here and there. Just be nice to them. Be courteous to them, you know. Don’t don’t. [00:50:45] They’re not they don’t they’re not your you know, they’re not your workers. They’re your they’re your colleagues. You know, that’s how you have [00:50:50] to treat them. And, and that sort of, you know, practices which operate well that really resonates [00:50:55] and practices which don’t, you know, people who just don’t care about the, you know, [00:51:00] the the staff and the nurses and, you know, you’ve got high turnover. You know, I walk in and you know, there’s a temp [00:51:05] there, I’m like, hi, how are you? My name is Aram. Have you ever done Endo before? Uh, I know I watched your [00:51:10] video on YouTube last night. It’s the first. And it’s like my heart sinks. I’m like, ah.

Speaker4: And [00:51:15] you know, that’s already.

Speaker1: A bad place for me to start my day. And, you know, like I said, you know, my psychological [00:51:20] state is very important on how my treatment goes and how I manage my patients. And, you know, starting the day that [00:51:25] way is, you know, not not the way that’s not going to work for anyone.

Speaker3: I mean, do you insist on the same nurse every time? [00:51:30] You should. Right.

Speaker4: Um, more or less.

Speaker1: I’ve got the same nurse in every practice. Yes. [00:51:35] I mean, there will be occasions where they’ll change and some practices have, um, you know, more than one nurse who [00:51:40] are sort of good enough to do the job. A lot of nurses don’t want to work with me. Not because, I mean, [00:51:45] I’m very, very nice to the nurses, but they just don’t like Hendo. It’s not obviously not very popular. I always joke and [00:51:50] I say, um, you know, the number one skill for endo nurse is to stay awake.

Speaker4: Um, so, [00:51:55] so.

Speaker1: Again, um, you know, some of the practices I work at, you know, my microscopes [00:52:00] got a camera attached and we’ve got a big TV, so the nurse actually can see what I’m doing, which is also [00:52:05] quite helpful. And, and one of the most important qualities, in my opinion, for a nurse is actually [00:52:10] being interested in what the dentist is doing. Like, you know, when, when the nurse is following what I’m doing, um, you know, [00:52:15] it just everything works a lot better. You know, they anticipate what I’m doing is sometimes they’ve got in their hand what [00:52:20] I’m already thinking about, you know?

Speaker4: So I think.

Speaker3: Look, um, I always, I often [00:52:25] talk about this idea of we’ve got, we’ve got some customers, right. And listeners who, [00:52:30] you know, the, the staff are completely empowered when, [00:52:35] when they’re making orders, you know, you say, hey, buy some more. And they just decide there and then themselves, [00:52:40] they say, yeah, buy, we’ll buy, we’ll double that order or whatever it is. And they don’t have to check with anyone. Yeah. And [00:52:45] interestingly, that same practice, those same practices pay their bills on [00:52:50] time. Um, they do a lot of whitening, you know, it’s a well-oiled machine, [00:52:55] a well-oiled machine. People are people are empowered to do things. And you can see it’s, you know, you [00:53:00] can imagine they’re good at a lot of different things. Yeah. Um, you’re 100% right. So kind [00:53:05] of what you were alluding to. Right. But I’m kind of interested in, you know, for instance, some of the practices you mentioned [00:53:10] to me, you work in Rhona’s practice, you work in Sareen, [00:53:15] which is, uh, the previous London.

Speaker4: Yes, Doctor.

Speaker1: Stafford’s practice.

Speaker3: Now, [00:53:20] Doctor Safir in Knightsbridge. And you work with my friends, uh, Nick and Marjan in the [00:53:25] Wellington Clinic. Also three very sort of different places, all in West London, [00:53:30] like, very different to each other. Um, now, talking about the positives that what you [00:53:35] gain from working in these places, like the nuggets you pick up. Because Romans practice is very [00:53:40] different to any practice I’ve ever been to. She’s very like she’s very unique in herself. [00:53:45] Right?

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: For the sake of the argument.

Speaker4: Yeah. I mean, there’s only.

Speaker1: One Rona, right? She’s, [00:53:50] uh, you know, she’s she’s she’s, uh. Yeah, exactly. Just a very unique individual. And, uh. [00:53:55]

Speaker3: But it rubs off on the practice, right? The people in the practice, the way everyone is.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker1: No, absolutely. [00:54:00] And I suppose as far as sort of social media and media, um, involvement, [00:54:05] you know, there’s there’s no better place to be than rhona’s practice. I mean, I’ve been on channel [00:54:10] five, um, you know, off the back of that and on a number of viral TikTok [00:54:15] videos and all the rest of it. And, you know, I’m always I’ve I’ve never naturally been the sort of social media [00:54:20] person, but, you know, I’m always getting dragged in to, like, you know, a room I walk in and they’re like, right, you’re doing a [00:54:25] TikTok video. Sit down, you.

Speaker4: Know.

Speaker1: And and you know what? It’s good because, you know, I [00:54:30] was you know, I’ve always been I’m from a slightly diff. I consider myself [00:54:35] from slightly older generation, from the time where, um, you know, we were taught [00:54:40] to be sort of humble and not talk about your achievements and all the rest of it, whereas social media has [00:54:45] kind of changed everything. It’s the opposite. Like, you know, if you want to be successful, you have to be out there and be [00:54:50] showing off. Essentially, you know, I do this, I’m this, I’m that. And it doesn’t come to me naturally. [00:54:55] But, you know, it’s it’s one of those things where you’ve got to either adapt or you’re going to be left behind, because that’s the way [00:55:00] the world is going now. And um.

Speaker4: But also like.

Speaker3: For instance, in in her practice, there’s lots of hugs [00:55:05] and kisses and even the staff are all like, you know, it’s such a unique place, man. And [00:55:10] it just reflects it’s true about how things come down from the top, don’t they? Yeah, [00:55:15] yeah. Um, I’ve always been interested in, in specialists who go into lots [00:55:20] of practices, you know, because you can really see a lot of different things. Um, and now you’ve got, you’ve you’ve [00:55:25] done your own as well.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: So I’ve just, um, I’ve started off my own [00:55:30] sort of endo referral clinic called the London Root Canal Clinic. I’ve got a room in Marylebone [00:55:35] and, um, yeah, we’re starting on with that and trying to build up and see how it goes. [00:55:40]

Speaker3: How many days are you there?

Speaker1: At the moment? I’m there at day and a half a week. Um, so [00:55:45] it’s just building up basically. And, um. Yeah.

Speaker3: Tell me [00:55:50] about how many treatments do you do in a day? You work in a day, work for a day somewhere. How [00:55:55] many how many enders do you do?

Speaker1: The maximum I would do is [00:56:00] five. But that doesn’t happen very often. I would say on average it’s [00:56:05] probably three. And some consults, um, uh, some days might be full, but usually [00:56:10] it’s about three can be two and some consults. Um, so obviously you need to do consults. [00:56:15] I don’t always do consults. Uh, some I ask whoever’s referring to me to send me the X-rays, [00:56:20] and I triage them. So I’ll look at an x ray if it looks like it’s a restorable tooth and it definitely needs [00:56:25] an endo, I’ll say book it straight in for treatment. If it’s, you know, a complex case or questionable, I [00:56:30] think I need to talk about the patient beforehand regarding something. Or if the patient wants to talk about something, [00:56:35] then we’ll go to a consult. So my days will be a mix of somewhere between, let’s say, 2 to 4 enders and [00:56:40] some consults.

Speaker3: And is your fee fixed for treatment and retreatment. [00:56:45]

Speaker4: It’s, it’s more.

Speaker1: Or less the same, give or take, you know, [00:56:50] 100, £200 here and there, but it’s within the same region, more or less across the board. Yeah.

Speaker4: So [00:56:55] I guess it needs to be.

Speaker3: Right because the dentist has quoted the fee already.

Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. No, no, I [00:57:00] mean in every surgery my fee is fixed. Yeah. In every surgery. Yeah. But but but amongst surgeries they’re all [00:57:05] in the same between them. But between the surgeries there’s a slight discrepancy but very slight. So [00:57:10] but yeah, within the surgery my fees are fixed. I’ve got a fee for molar premolar, incisor, [00:57:15] retreatments, usually £100 more. Um. And.

Speaker4: Yeah. Do you mind if.

Speaker3: I [00:57:20] ask how much you charge?

Speaker1: Um, I charge between 1200 [00:57:25] to 1500.

Speaker4: Oh, nice. Yeah.

Speaker3: And [00:57:30] so from a business perspective, yeah, if we’re talking business, you kind [00:57:35] of know how much you’re going to earn, you know, in a year. Kind of right. You [00:57:40] can’t really make a big difference to it.

Speaker1: Um, yeah, I suppose I mean, it depends. You’ve [00:57:45] got the capacity always to work more and do do you know, more work or less? Yeah. [00:57:50] I mean more more, more days, less days, more hours. Yeah, yeah. So, [00:57:55] um, but yeah, I mean, more or less, you know, what you earn within, [00:58:00] you know, give or take certain amount.

Speaker4: Plus or minus.

Speaker3: So then, so then when you’re thinking growth, do you think [00:58:05] are you thinking of endo growth or are you thinking properties or whatever else something outside [00:58:10] of endo.

Speaker1: Um, I.

Speaker4: Think.

Speaker1: Both. I mean, um, I’m thinking, [00:58:15] uh, obviously at the moment I’m doing this whole Endo clinic myself, but yeah, I would [00:58:20] like to, for the future, be involved, definitely in a sort of high [00:58:25] quality specialist referral practice. And I’m not talking just saying, though. I mean, like, uh, you know, high, high.

Speaker4: Quality [00:58:30] disciplinary.

Speaker1: Multidisciplinary practice. Yeah. So, so that’s, that’s that’s something I’d like [00:58:35] to be involved in. Again, I’m probably, uh, I take my time a bit more [00:58:40] than, than other people. People are nowadays just jumping into things. I sort of, you know, take my time [00:58:45] with my things as I go along. So building up and dip my toes in. And that’s the good thing with, [00:58:50] uh, with endo, you know, you don’t have to if I want to start, you know, buy into a practice or start a practice [00:58:55] tomorrow, I don’t have to necessarily leave all my jobs. I can leave, you know, one job, two jobs, three jobs. I can and I [00:59:00] can make as much time available as needed to do what I want to do.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker3: So [00:59:05] tell me about outside of Endo. [00:59:10]

Speaker1: Outside of Endo.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Outside of work. What do you do.

Speaker4: I don’t have I [00:59:15] don’t have a life. Yeah. No I’m joking. Um, because.

Speaker3: We we do music. We do [00:59:20] music interests. Right. Is it now before it was like actually something you used to do regularly. But is it now like a [00:59:25] hobby?

Speaker1: Yeah. Um, I mean, I like to, I like working out [00:59:30] a lot. Um, I used to do it back in the days for, you know, the way [00:59:35] I look, but now I do it for the way I feel. I think it’s a really, really important part of, um, [00:59:40] you know, both physical and mental health. I try and go to the gym in the mornings most days, [00:59:45] so that’s quite big for me. And in terms of my music DJing, I will do. [00:59:50] You know, I’ve got decks at home. Obviously I can play when I want, I’ve got guitar at home. So, you know, I [00:59:55] play whenever I feel like it. I get invited out to play, uh, to parties. Um, we [01:00:00] just had a kings, uh, indoor party. We can last. [01:00:05]

Speaker4: Kings and Doughnut.

Speaker1: Party or a DJ that.

Speaker4: So that’s [01:00:10] that’s literally it’s.

Speaker1: Literally what I was called the Kings and Doughnut Party. [01:00:15]

Speaker4: That was about.

Speaker3: It’s not quite fabric, is it?

Speaker4: But yeah. No it was. Yeah. It was, it was, it was, it [01:00:20] was.

Speaker1: It was in a hotel with uh. Yeah, I was, it was nice. It was all the sort of past, present, future [01:00:25] professors, students, everyone, alumni all together. So. Yeah, I mean, depends [01:00:30] on what the gig is. Or I get invited sometimes to a West End nightclub because I’ve got friends in the industry, so I play there [01:00:35] as well. Um, you know, I’ve played places as big as Koko in Camden, the O2 [01:00:40] oh two, 3000 people. Yeah, I’ve. I used to play in West End nightclubs all the time. [01:00:45] This is.

Speaker4: Obviously.

Speaker1: This is a bit bit earlier on. Um, I consider [01:00:50] myself semi-retired now on that front, but I used to at one point play professionally. [01:00:55] I used to get paid to play.

Speaker4: So that was.

Speaker3: That was that like, could it have possibly been a [01:01:00] career? Instead?

Speaker1: I was seriously considering it to be at one point. You know, I had I had a manager and I [01:01:05] was, you know, thinking of taking it to the next level. But, um, I decided [01:01:10] not to because, you know, it’s it’s the whole lifestyle of being in that party environment, [01:01:15] which is, you know, it’s not consistent with, um, you know, settling down and, and [01:01:20] future, um, sort of serious life plans, you know, so.

Speaker3: So [01:01:25] the Iranian side took over.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker1: Exactly.

Speaker4: So as, as as.

Speaker1: Much as and [01:01:30] much as I enjoy the actual act of playing a musical performance, whatever it might be with [01:01:35] a guitar or DJing, you know, it’s not it’s not something that I want to do. Seriously. [01:01:40]

Speaker4: Let’s get to.

Speaker3: The darker part of the pod.

Speaker4: Let’s go.

Speaker3: We like to talk about [01:01:45] mistakes, errors.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker3: Give me, give me, give me some clinical errors. You’ve [01:01:50] made some things we can all learn from.

Speaker1: Okay, so grab [01:01:55] some popcorn and a drink. Yeah. Um, so [01:02:00] let’s start with, um, the first indoor one, which, [01:02:05] um, was as a NHS GDP, and [01:02:10] I was treating a patient who was an exempt patient, um, i.e. for those who [01:02:15] don’t know, doesn’t pay basically for their treatment because, um, you know, they’re covered by [01:02:20] the NHS and it was a low of six. I had a size 25 k-file [01:02:25] in there and it snapped the classic. And um, obviously I [01:02:30] did what I was told to do. You know, all throughout a career, I’d stopped the treatment, took [01:02:35] an x ray, told the patient about it, and patient was unhappy. And [01:02:40] so she basically came back to the practice, made a not formal [01:02:45] complaint, but to the practice, said, you know, he didn’t tell me about this. If [01:02:50] I would have known about this, I would have extracted the tooth. So that’s what she said. [01:02:55] Uh, she it was going to go to a complaint, but luckily I called up [01:03:00] the sort of local NHS community referral unit I spoke to the [01:03:05] head, which was a lovely lady called Caroline Cox, I think her name was. And she was [01:03:10] really, uh, empathetic.

Speaker1: And she explained that she’d had a root canal treatment and someone had broken a file in [01:03:15] her tooth about 20 years ago, and the tooth was still there. Anyway, cut a long story short, she managed to. [01:03:20] She basically bumped up my patient up the waiting list to see the specialist and the dentist who [01:03:25] very kindly treated the tooth, got the file out and finished the case for me. So I got out of that one. But the lesson [01:03:30] that that taught me straight away after that case, I when I wrote up a consent form, I [01:03:35] wrote up a consent form with everything that I could possibly think can go wrong in an endo [01:03:40] case. And every patient that I’ve done endo from endo on since [01:03:45] then, I always give a written consent form because that, you know, the fact that she said, [01:03:50] you know, you didn’t tell me that this could happen beforehand, and if you did, I would have extracted a tooth, which I think was a bit extreme. [01:03:55] But, you know, she was going to go on that and just, you know, take it further basically. But that, that nipped it [01:04:00] in the bud.

Speaker3: Fortunately at this point you weren’t an endodontist, right?

Speaker4: No, this.

Speaker1: I was [01:04:05] early, early on in my GDP career. And, you know, this was one of the things that put me off. And though, you know, you know, you [01:04:10] finish university and you go into practice. I was in an NHS practice. I was using K files to prepare my canals. [01:04:15] Right. And you know, you’re getting paid three udas for it, which was £30 back then. And [01:04:20] you’re thinking, you know, you want to do your best for the patients, but, you know, you barely, you know, I didn’t have an apex locator. [01:04:25] Imagine. And you know, you’re doing working like that and spending all your time [01:04:30] getting paid barely anything. You’re nervous at the end of it because the case didn’t go that well. And it’s [01:04:35] like, you know, why? Why am I doing this?

Speaker3: So but give me, give me, give me an endodontist [01:04:40] failure like an endodontist error.

Speaker1: So I’ll give you another one. I’ve got loads, [01:04:45] I’ve got loads.

Speaker4: Um, so, uh.

Speaker1: I learned the hard way. [01:04:50] Um, so this one is more about, [01:04:55] uh. Well, yeah, it’s, it’s an error and it’s about communication. So this is probably, uh, it [01:05:00] was the first year after I qualified as a specialist, and I was a clinical teacher already at King’s. Um, [01:05:05] I had a patient who was 15 year old girl, came in with a dad. She had a lower incisor, [01:05:10] which was already root treated reasonably well. History of trauma. And it had a [01:05:15] pretty big, big infection around it. So I looked at this tooth, I did [01:05:20] the assessment and I said, okay, look, we can we can treat this. For [01:05:25] some reason. I didn’t mention surgery. And the reason I didn’t [01:05:30] mention surgery was in my head. I was like, this girl is 15. [01:05:35] I don’t want to scare her. Let me be the nice guy. And me didn’t mention it right? Even though [01:05:40] my ethos and this is I always teach my students as well, is when it comes [01:05:45] to endo. Always, always, always undersell and overdeliver. So every patient I [01:05:50] see, I always prepare them for the worst outcome, which is a tooth extraction basically. So that [01:05:55] way it does two. Number one I think is a part of consent anyway, because any tooth which is due [01:06:00] for an endo could potentially end up being extracted.

Speaker1: And number two, once you’ve had [01:06:05] that conversation in a really nice way not to put the patient off, but it puts you at ease. [01:06:10] And that’s the most important thing. If you if you start treating the case and you’re already anxious or apprehensive, [01:06:15] that’s not going to go well anyway. Long story short, this patient comes in for a treatment. I go [01:06:20] in, remove the GP. There’s two canals. Lower incisors quite often have two canals. And, [01:06:25] um, there was a little isthmus. So like a little small area connecting the two canals. So I was like, [01:06:30] let me, you know, there was some GP stuck in there which I wanted to get out. So I put ultrasonic tip in there. [01:06:35] And in this practice, which I was working at, they didn’t have the ultrasonic unit that I [01:06:40] would ask for. So it was like a sort of, let’s say, budget one, which didn’t have, you know, the [01:06:45] sort of very, very, uh, so graduations, which you can start, you know, with low power. And it [01:06:50] was quite high powered, basically. I. Put ultrasonic tip in that put my foot down and snapped the [01:06:55] ultrasonic tip snaps in the isthmus. So I’m.

Speaker4: Like.

Speaker1: Yeah, so I’m okay. I’m like, it’s fine. [01:07:00] You know? I’m an endodontist. I can deal with this. So I turned the power right [01:07:05] down on the device, go back in to try and sort of vibrate that little tip and take it out. Another [01:07:10] piece of the ultrasonic tip breaks.

Speaker4: Oh my goodness. And now that piece is.

Speaker1: Goes [01:07:15] right down to the end of the root.

Speaker4: Well, now.

Speaker1: In this practice that I worked at, um, the microscope [01:07:20] wasn’t the best microscope. So I’m looking in there already. I’m like, you know, that sinking feeling, [01:07:25] your heart sinks. You’re like, damn. Like what? How am I going to break this to, you know, to [01:07:30] to the. And the dad was saying that, you know, he had sort of, you know, one of these parents who was, [01:07:35] uh, you know, really sort of on everything, and, you know, daddy’s girl, you know, I wanted to make sure daddy’s girl is going to be [01:07:40] fine. So, you know, take a few deep breaths, try and calm down. Uh, anyway, temporise [01:07:45] the case, I’m like, look, um, so. And whenever I explain errors to patients, I [01:07:50] think it’s really important to not sound nervous. So I make sure I sound calm. I’m like, look, [01:07:55] basically this has happened. It’s, you know, one of the common procedural errors in endo. Don’t worry about it. [01:08:00] You know, um, the microscope in this surgery is a isn’t the highest powered one. I’m going to take [01:08:05] you somewhere else to sort it out with a higher powered microscope. Kyle, long story short, take him to [01:08:10] another surgery. Try my hardest. I can’t get them out. So he’s got two fractured [01:08:15] ultrasonic tips at the root end of this 15 year old girl.

Speaker3: So [01:08:20] what happens next?

Speaker4: So then I was like, damn.

Speaker1: I was like, um, [01:08:25] this is this is not going to go well, fortunately, um, one of the perks of being [01:08:30] a clinical teacher at guy’s is you’ve got that insurance policy there available to you. [01:08:35] So I basically said, look, um, this case is going to need [01:08:40] a surgery, which the lesson I learned if I had not been, you know, in [01:08:45] my head, being the nice guy and trying not to scare the girl, I should have mentioned from the beginning, because the [01:08:50] tooth with that big lesion, any tooth which has got a lesion that size, you always have to mention apical surgery as [01:08:55] one of the options. And had I mention that I wouldn’t have had that stress and sleepless night anyway. So [01:09:00] anyway, long story short, I took the guy’s. But I was so nervous about that point, about that case at that point myself, which I didn’t [01:09:05] want to do it. So I kind of. And so I kind of gave it to one of my, um, colleagues, uh, Federico [01:09:10] Foschi, who’s a consultant there who very kindly did the surgery for me. And that was that healed beautifully. [01:09:15] And everything went well. But I honestly had I can’t remember a case [01:09:20] for a long time before and after or since, um, that, that I’ve, you know, [01:09:25] had sleepless nights other than that, because I was thinking, damn, like, you know, this, you know what [01:09:30] if what if, you know, this tooth has to go? What if this, what if that? And you know, the fact that I hadn’t mentioned [01:09:35] the surgery. I mean, they took it quite well. I was lucky it could have gone a lot worse than it did. Uh, to be fair. [01:09:40] But the point, again, is to don’t let your niceness get [01:09:45] in the way of explaining things that can go wrong to your patient. So make sure you communicate all [01:09:50] the risks before you begin.

Speaker3: On that point of, uh, you know, finding [01:09:55] someone to help you. Just how often does that happen? How often? [01:10:00] How often do you refer to an endodontist? Very, very, very rarely.

Speaker1: Not so. [01:10:05] So let me tell you something. I would say that since becoming a clinical [01:10:10] teacher, my skills have advanced by far more [01:10:15] than during my entire specialist training. By magnitude of, I don’t know, [01:10:20] five. Why? Why? Because when you’re teaching [01:10:25] in the post-grad department, number one, you’re treating some of the most complex cases which you wouldn’t treat in practice. [01:10:30] Because in practice, let’s let’s face it, when the patient comes and the tooth is beyond a certain point, the conversation [01:10:35] is, am I going to pay 1000 1500 to do an endo, plus a thousand for [01:10:40] a crown, or am I going to go for an implant? So there’s certain cases you just don’t do that you do in hospital. That’s number one. Number [01:10:45] two, you are the guy that gets called over when things go wrong. So you get [01:10:50] good at fixing problems, you know, oh, the canal is alleged. Can you bypass the ledge? The instrument broke. Can you take it [01:10:55] out? I perforated, can you fix it so you’re constantly fixing problems? So after having done that now [01:11:00] for about four and a half years, I feel like, you know, again, well, I still learn, you know, we’re [01:11:05] still, you know, we discuss cases. I’m always learning. I’m not definitely not the finished article. I don’t think I ever will be, [01:11:10] but I’m at a point where I would say it’s very rare for me to need [01:11:15] to ask help. You know, there will be the cases where, you know, diagnostically, you know, we’re [01:11:20] scratching our heads.

Speaker1: You know, we’re trying to think what’s to do best with, you know, what’s the best thing to do for a patient? [01:11:25] Again, another case we did very interestingly, which is something I wouldn’t do in practice, [01:11:30] but I had a very complicated case. It was a lower for an Afro-Caribbean lady. Sometimes [01:11:35] the canals and lower premolars trifurcate. So they split into three canals, so filled [01:11:40] one of the canals, the other two were completely calcified. So, long story short, didn’t work and the [01:11:45] root end was very close to the mental foramen. So surgery that was very risky. So [01:11:50] we took it to guys like what should we do? And we decided to do intentional replantation. Have you heard of that? [01:11:55] So basically what we did, we extract the tooth, we do the surgery [01:12:00] out of the mouth and we put it back into wow. Yeah. So, so and and you [01:12:05] know that there’s a lot of specialists who are doing that now and who are quite good. Well not a lot. There’s let [01:12:10] me rephrase. There’s a few specialists, very few specialists who do that in practice [01:12:15] around the world to do conferences and get good success rates, but it’s definitely not something that [01:12:20] most specialists do. But again, being in guy’s, I got to do that treatment because [01:12:25] it was guys. And you know, you take cases there which you just wouldn’t attempt in practice. [01:12:30] And it’s these kind of things which you do there which which make being clinical teacher just [01:12:35] completely invaluable.

Speaker4: So in in.

Speaker3: The world of endo, is there other like you [01:12:40] said, there’s a guy who’s, who’s sort of subspecialty is this who goes around the world teaching [01:12:45] this. What are the other subspecialties? Are there some some guys who are like a discectomy guy’s [01:12:50] only like, what are they?

Speaker4: Yeah. So I mean.

Speaker1: We had, um, I’m part of this [01:12:55] endo geek group called the Langham, which we have three meetings a year and we get, like an international speaker [01:13:00] and they come and deep dive a whole day on, like, a certain thing. So. So we had this guy who’s, [01:13:05] um, basically he does this technique called the lit technique or the window technique, [01:13:10] um, where he is for apical surgery in the mandible mainly. I mean, you could do it anywhere, [01:13:15] but for example, in the mandible where you’ve got that thick cortical bone, um, instead of just trusting [01:13:20] a hole in the bone to try and get to the root, you use piezoelectrics and, [01:13:25] uh, ultrasonics basically to cut a window and basically remove that window of [01:13:30] beau, expose the root, do the surgery, and then put that lid back on.

Speaker4: Oh, yeah. [01:13:35]

Speaker1: So, so there’s a guy who basically in America who just just does, you [01:13:40] know, he’s like a I mean, he does everything obviously. But that’s like his niche. So we’ve got that. We’ve got [01:13:45] guys who do intentional replantation. We’ve got guys who do autotransplantation conferences. So, you know, they’ll take a tooth [01:13:50] out from somewhere else and put it another, another, uh, another place in the jaw. Trauma. Guys, [01:13:55] uh, trauma is a big part of vendor.

Speaker3: What about compared to other countries, [01:14:00] how are we in the UK? And was that where is the top endodontist [01:14:05] country? Is it America?

Speaker1: I would say definitely UK. [01:14:10] Us are at the top.

Speaker4: Really?

Speaker1: Yeah UK, US, [01:14:15] Sweden like you know but the European countries definitely by far more so [01:14:20] than um, I would say the Arabic countries because I know, [01:14:25] you know, I did quite a bit of research. I was interested in Dubai for a while, so I went and had a look out there and [01:14:30] sort of standardisation. You know, we’ve got not a lot of places in the world to have, [01:14:35] uh, specialist register, for example, we do in the UK and the US and to get on the specialist [01:14:40] register is incredibly difficult. So give me an idea. Um, the last time I checked, [01:14:45] there’s approximately 43,000 registered dentists in [01:14:50] the UK, and there’s about 320 registered endodontists.

Speaker4: So that is.

Speaker1: Yeah, [01:14:55] so so.

Speaker4: So so so.

Speaker1: Obviously to get on that list is hard work and you know [01:15:00] it. You know, some someone who’s on that list, you can expect a reasonable level of, [01:15:05] you know, reasonable level of quality of treatment from them, which you, I suppose, don’t have in a lot of other countries. [01:15:10] Um, again, I’m not saying there’s not amazing people everywhere.

Speaker4: But it’s.

Speaker3: Interesting you say that because I don’t think there’s [01:15:15] any other part of dentistry where I would say the UK is leading.

Speaker4: Maybe.

Speaker3: Maybe, [01:15:20] maybe, maybe, maybe the ABC area because of Tiff.

Speaker4: Because of.

Speaker3: Tiff [01:15:25] Qureshi. Yeah, but but although I think, I think standards are getting better but you know [01:15:30] like when you, when you go to international conferences and you see some of the stuff people are doing from [01:15:35] abroad.

Speaker4: No, the end of the endo.

Speaker1: Unit especially are under unit at King’s and especially [01:15:40] in terms of research output as well. It’s excellent. It’s world leading. It’s world leading. Yeah. Yeah. [01:15:45]

Speaker3: So all right then let’s talk about [01:15:50] if you are working as an endodontist. In the early [01:15:55] days. And you’re trying to you’re trying to get referrals. I mean, how did you manage to be [01:16:00] this guy who’s who’s in all of these top practices or, or is it because there’s so few endodontists it’s not [01:16:05] such a hard thing to do?

Speaker1: Um, I think first of all, endodontists [01:16:10] are highly in demand at the moment.

Speaker4: Yeah. Is that the reason? So. [01:16:15]

Speaker1: So, um, partly, but I mean, I was I always wanted to be the guy who [01:16:20] works. I mean, I’m lazy. I wanted to keep my commute time minimal. And I live in central London.

Speaker4: So.

Speaker1: So [01:16:25] I wanted to work. I wanted to work as close as possible.

Speaker3: Um, but, you know, from that, from the marketing side [01:16:30] of it, from, you know, you have to market yourself to high end dentists, right? [01:16:35]

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: So, so that skill is that is that something you have to work out all the time. [01:16:40]

Speaker1: I suppose. I mean, I’m quite, you know, I’m good with people. [01:16:45] I used to work I used to work in the sort of, uh, entertainment or nightlife [01:16:50] industry. I used to, I used to do event organisation. You know, we have to go out and schmooze people to come to our events. [01:16:55] So, you know, I’m I’m generally good with, um, you know, uh, talk talking to [01:17:00] people and building rapport. So I guess it starts from there and then, you know, and [01:17:05] when it comes to work, you know, I’ve built a reputation by working in places. And people [01:17:10] talk, obviously, and they know it’s not just about the quality of work, but also the [01:17:15] way I treat patients. You know, I treat patients always, you know, with a lot of care. [01:17:20] I’m very meticulous in what I do. Again, in terms of managing anxious patients. [01:17:25] I as I said early on in my career, I used to work in a sedation referral practice, [01:17:30] and one of my things that I pride myself on is throughout the years, I’ve managed to [01:17:35] wean a lot of people off sedation. So I think dealing with anxious patients is [01:17:40] another sort of strength of mine, which is which is attracted people to me, really. [01:17:45] And a lot of these places, a lot of these jobs that I’ve got, they’ve, you know, they’ve they’ve heard about me and they’ve sort of approached me [01:17:50] and said, you know, we’d really like you to work in our practice. So that’s that’s how I ended up in most of [01:17:55] the places that I did. Um, it started with one, actually. My first, my first [01:18:00] central London endo job was actually at the Chelsea Dental Clinic before Rona bought it. [01:18:05] So that’s that’s where I started out. And I suppose Ron Rona’s had a hand in, [01:18:10] um, in, in promoting me as well because, um, obviously she’s very well known. And then I [01:18:15] became Chelsea Dental Clinics, Endodontist and then everyone else, uh, you know, became interested as well. [01:18:20] Mm.

Speaker3: Yeah. Lovely family. Used to own it before. Um, yeah.

Speaker4: Joseph. Joseph. [01:18:25]

Speaker3: Joseph. Joseph. Yeah, yeah. Lovely people.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Um, but but then, you know, [01:18:30] as a specialist, generally you’re having to do this a lot, right. So did you do study clubs [01:18:35] and. In. Do any of the practices organise stuff like that?

Speaker1: Um, [01:18:40] some do, but it’s not. It’s not mainly study clubs. I mean, they’ll, they’ll, you know, there’ll be odd sort of CPD [01:18:45] event where I speak at here and there. Um, but obviously we’ve got our own [01:18:50] sort of endodontist, um, geek clubs. Like I said, I’m part of the committee of this thing called the Langham [01:18:55] Study Group. And also, obviously, I’m a clinical lecturer at, uh, at [01:19:00] King’s. So, you know, I’m there once a week mixing with some of the, you know, world [01:19:05] leaders in research. And, um, you know, I’m getting to talk to [01:19:10] them about cases, and you keep you keep up to date in that way. So that’s it’s [01:19:15] a really good thing to do. Uh, it’s a thing I do one day a week. And, [01:19:20] you know, it’s definitely not something you do for the money.

Speaker3: Yeah. You’re taking a massive pay pay drop. Yeah. [01:19:25]

Speaker4: Massive massive.

Speaker1: Massive. Yeah.

Speaker3: So do you enjoy teaching?

Speaker1: I do, I do [01:19:30] a lot. Yeah I think I think.

Speaker4: I.

Speaker1: You know, you actually learn [01:19:35] a lot by teaching. And it’s also lovely to be able to sort of pass it down, pass your knowledge [01:19:40] down. So I teach I teach undergraduates as well, uh, not just postgraduates. And I started [01:19:45] teaching the reason I got the joke, but one of the reasons I got the job is I when I was a post grad, I used to teach undergrads, [01:19:50] and I used to be, you know, quite keen on it. And, you know, as soon as I qualified, they gave me a job there straight away. [01:19:55] And, um, I think it’s nice to be able to impart that knowledge, um, [01:20:00] down to, down to new generation, teach them, you know, it’s like it’s like a [01:20:05] baton that we pass along. And again, it’s good for your own learning. Like, you know, I [01:20:10] think it was Einstein or someone who said that if you really understand something, if you can explain it to a six [01:20:15] year old. So, so, so, you know, you we all get in this sort of way of [01:20:20] doing things, but we don’t actually think about why we do what we do. So then when you actually have to break it down [01:20:25] and explain it to someone else, it really makes you understand things better. And, you know, sometimes you actually [01:20:30] be like, why am I doing this? And, you know, you go back and read and look things up. And so, yeah, it just [01:20:35] elevates your own, uh, you elevates yourself as a clinician.

Speaker3: And there’s the odd [01:20:40] endodontist who has like a brand and then there’s endodontist working [01:20:45] for them.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: Is that a thing you might do.

Speaker1: Oh, as in [01:20:50] build the clinics and then have another endodontist working.

Speaker3: Yeah. I mean, I’m thinking of an spandaryan. [01:20:55]

Speaker4: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely.

Speaker1: I mean that’s, that’s that’s definitely a goal as well. Obviously [01:21:00] if you can, the goal is to start a referral practice and then get it to a level where then you know, you can [01:21:05] have other endodontists working there as well. That’s uh.

Speaker3: Is that is that quite a common thing?

Speaker1: I [01:21:10] wouldn’t say it’s common, but there’s a, there’s a few of them and I suppose it’s going to overall [01:21:15] get less common as this sort of, you know, especially in London the most mostly. [01:21:20] And, and London is saturated with, um, with endodontist compared to other places. So and [01:21:25] there’s a big surge in private and squat practices and everyone wants to have [01:21:30] their own endodontist. So, you know, there’s going to be less people referring out going forward, [01:21:35] I think.

Speaker3: Amazing, man. What an insight. Who would you say is the world’s [01:21:40] top endodontist?

Speaker4: Uh.

Speaker1: That’s a that’s a difficult one.

Speaker4: But [01:21:45] a few of.

Speaker3: Them, a few of them.

Speaker4: I.

Speaker1: Would definitely say I think it’s agreed amongst [01:21:50] the endodontist when it comes to clinical skills. There’s a Italian gentleman [01:21:55] called Massimo Gervasio who is, uh, also [01:22:00] used to teach at King’s. He’s based in Bristol. He runs a training academy called Delta Dental [01:22:05] Academy.

Speaker3: Oh, I know, no more. Massive. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, sorry. Yeah.

Speaker4: With Prav Prav. [01:22:10]

Speaker1: Uh, his.

Speaker4: Website as well. So. So, uh, he’s.

Speaker1: He’s known amongst the [01:22:15] endodontists as being, you know, the, you know, one of the, if not the best when it comes to skills. [01:22:20] He is he is really, really excellent, I would say.

Speaker3: But what does he do? What do you mean? [01:22:25] Skills. The kind of canals he can.

Speaker4: What.

Speaker1: Uh, like if [01:22:30] you, if you look at his work, it’s like artwork, like everything he does. Really everything. It’s not just the canals. He does [01:22:35] restorative work as well. Like every. Everything he does is just perfect. Basically. That’s that’s [01:22:40] the way I can describe it. He’s a perfectionist more than, you know, amongst endodontist or perfectionist [01:22:45] anyway, but he’s a perfectionist amongst the perfectionist. So you can imagine the level. And [01:22:50] um, you know, he does things like 3D prints teeth beforehand. Like if he’s got a complex case, he’ll [01:22:55] 3D print the tooth and plan the treatment beforehand and all sorts.

Speaker4: Of these.

Speaker1: These [01:23:00] sort of advanced things. And the way he, he trains as well [01:23:05] is quite good because he’s got he brings, uh, people over and he does live [01:23:10] patient treatment, both sort of supervising them and also him doing it and sort of showing what he’s doing [01:23:15] on a big TV so people can actually watch live and actually take part and treat live as well. I mean, you’ve [01:23:20] got a lot of that going on for, um, implant dentistry at the moment, but not really, um, for [01:23:25] um, for endo as much. So that’s kind of unique in what he does as well. But [01:23:30] his academy is based in Bristol at the moment.

Speaker3: Yeah, yeah. With, with with um my. [01:23:35]

Speaker4: The its.

Speaker3: And [01:23:40] its it can take care of this one.

Speaker4: Alfonso. [01:23:45]

Speaker3: With my body. With my buddy Alfonso.

Speaker4: Alfonso? Yes. With Alfonso. Yeah.

Speaker3: Um. [01:23:50] All right. We’ve [01:23:55] come to the end of the to our time at the end of our time. Um, let’s [01:24:00] get on to the final questions. Fancy dinner party. Three [01:24:05] guests, dead or alive. Who’d you reckon?

Speaker4: Hmm. [01:24:10]

Speaker1: So the first guest would be someone who I’m not actually sure [01:24:15] existed or not. Might be mythical, but it’s going to be Adam.

Speaker3: Of Adam and Eve.

Speaker4: Yep. [01:24:20] What a great.

Speaker1: Uh, I want to see [01:24:25] if it was actually the first and only man. I want to see what the Garden of Eden was like. [01:24:30] And I wanted to see if Eve and that poison apple were worth getting kicked [01:24:35] out of the Garden of Eden.

Speaker3: Do you believe in God?

Speaker1: I believe [01:24:40] in God as an intelligent creator. And that’s a [01:24:45] debate. Um, which favourite author of mine? More God that, uh, went through [01:24:50] deep dive into and is like, uh, sulphur, sulphur happy and [01:24:55] um, and yeah, um, I think on the balance of probabilities, there is an intelligent creator [01:25:00] and therefore I believe in God. Yeah.

Speaker3: I like Mo, I think, I think I think Rona knows him. [01:25:05] I’m he’s my dream guest. I want I want to have him on.

Speaker4: Well, [01:25:10] well, he’s he’s he’s.

Speaker1: One of mine. So he was he was going to be my third guest.

Speaker3: Oh [01:25:15] amazing.

Speaker4: So he’s the second guess.

Speaker1: Uh, the second [01:25:20] guest would be, I think I want to say someone [01:25:25] from the Illuminati, but I’m thinking. I’m thinking someone like Larry Fink, [01:25:30] like a CEO of Blackrock.

Speaker4: Or someone else.

Speaker3: Someone, right?

Speaker4: Yeah. [01:25:35] Someone. Someone. Someone who knows.

Speaker1: What happens behind the closed door meetings in Davos and all that. [01:25:40] Like just get a little insight into what’s really happening.

Speaker4: Yeah.

Speaker3: The proper Iranian conspiracy [01:25:45] theorist. Right. So when I was on another podcast and the question was something [01:25:50] like, uh, where would you like to be a fly on the wall? And I was like, wherever, you know, like [01:25:55] gave the order to shoot Kennedy, you know, like that, that that moment, you know. Yeah.

Speaker4: Exactly. [01:26:00]

Speaker1: Exactly something like.

Speaker4: That.

Speaker1: And and. Yeah. My God, that’s obviously [01:26:05] he’s I think he’s an amazing mind and, you know, just just has so much to, you [01:26:10] know, so much to learn from him really. But both in terms of, you know, his journey with, um, you [01:26:15] know, with tragedy in his life and his and his and how he got over that. And also, he knows [01:26:20] a lot about AI, and I think we all need to.

Speaker4: Learn.

Speaker1: A bit more about that because it’s coming [01:26:25] to get us.

Speaker4: Yeah. Do you listen to his podcast?

Speaker1: I do, yeah, I listen to some of it, yeah. And [01:26:30] yeah. And it’s also and he’s also a great narrator [01:26:35] as well.

Speaker3: Amazing, amazing. Good choice. Good choices man. Yeah. Good choices. All [01:26:40] right. And Travis, final question. It’s a deathbed question on your deathbed, [01:26:45] surrounded by your loved ones. By that time. Old children. Three [01:26:50] pieces of advice you’d leave for them and for the world.

Speaker1: I [01:26:55] think the first one I mean, I’ve got I’ve got a lot, but I think the first one would [01:27:00] be to love yourself. And what I mean by that is not in a narcissistic sense, because [01:27:05] people are narcissists actually portray an image of self-love, but they actually [01:27:10] it comes from an element of insecurity and something that they don’t like about themselves. Self. [01:27:15] To really love yourself means to accept yourself for [01:27:20] everything, good and bad that you are. And I think if once someone loves themselves truly, [01:27:25] then they’re really capable of loving, you know, everyone else. And that will solve a lot of problems in the world [01:27:30] if people really love themselves and accept them themselves.

Speaker4: It’s interesting.

Speaker1: And [01:27:35] yeah, so I think that’s one. And the second one would be to [01:27:40] treat others as you’d like to be treated yourself. I think that’s always been a guiding [01:27:45] principle of mine. And finally to and [01:27:50] this is something again, I aspire to, which is why I would advise it. It’s to think [01:27:55] less and act more. Probably wouldn’t apply to everyone. Uh, but [01:28:00] yeah, especially someone like myself.

Speaker3: It’s interesting because the question could [01:28:05] be, it could be this is what I did and it worked, or it could be this is what I didn’t do, but I wish I did. [01:28:10] And that’s what you’re saying.

Speaker1: The other answer I was going to give, and this is going to go back to our [01:28:15] Iranian roots, is good thoughts, good deeds, good actions, sorry, good thoughts, good thoughts, [01:28:20] good deeds, good words.

Speaker4: Let’s say let’s let’s say that again.

Speaker1: It’s going to be good [01:28:25] thoughts. Good deeds, good actions.

Speaker4: Goes back to the old Zoroastrian [01:28:30] festivals. Yeah.

Speaker3: That is beautiful. That is beautiful. Tell me about the first one though. Um. [01:28:35] Love yourself. Are you saying your weaknesses? Love your weaknesses? Acknowledge them.

Speaker1: So [01:28:40] a lot of self-love comes down to accepting yourself for who [01:28:45] you are. And, you know, there’s there’s a book I read in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor [01:28:50] Mate, and he’s an expert in trauma, and he believes that all [01:28:55] addictions and we’re all addicted to something, by the way. And he believes that [01:29:00] all comes from trauma. So, you know, there’s some sort of trauma. That trauma starts a sequence of self-loathing, [01:29:05] which then leads us to this behaviour of addiction. Um, and [01:29:10] that’s only one aspect of it. Um, the other parts come to sort of things like aggression and [01:29:15] harming other people. And, you know, they always say the person who’s been abused becomes the abuser, right? [01:29:20] So and the reason they do that is because they’ve got this part of themselves which they [01:29:25] dislike, and then they bring that out and portray that and act on it onto other people. [01:29:30] So if you really learn to love yourself and accept yourself for who you are, no matter, [01:29:35] you know, we’ve all got things which you don’t like about ourselves or like less or like more. Just accept yourself. Love yourself [01:29:40] for who you are and what you are, and then you will be able to, you know, love other [01:29:45] people. That’s the side effect of loving yourself truly and accepting yourself.

Speaker4: Um.

Speaker3: And [01:29:50] your third one about jumping in. Are you saying you’re overcautious?

Speaker4: No. [01:29:55]

Speaker1: I spend a lot of time thinking, um, about things and, you know, and thinking, [01:30:00] you know, I used to think it’s a good thing, you know, I’m into sort of reading and philosophy and [01:30:05] all this, and and I think it’s good to some extent, but, you know, that I can say [01:30:10] is, you know, maybe one of my addictive behaviours is just, you know, get deep diving into things [01:30:15] and learning about, you know, things which aren’t really beneficial to my life necessarily and [01:30:20] thinking about them. And I spend a lot of time in my head. And life in your head isn’t living. Living [01:30:25] is action. So. So, you know, if I could give myself some advice, which I’m trying to [01:30:30] take is to, you know, think less and just act more, do things, you know, if you want to start a business or do [01:30:35] whatever, just, you know, make do the actions and just get up and do it instead of thinking too much.

Speaker4: You know, I think.

Speaker3: I [01:30:40] don’t know, it’s a related thing. I don’t know if you’ve heard that they say people are either foxes or hedgehogs [01:30:45] and and I don’t know, foxes. Think about all the different permutations [01:30:50] and all the different possibilities of things that could happen. I’m like that too. [01:30:55] And then hedgehogs are very simple, clear. If this happens, do this. If that happens, do that. And it turns out [01:31:00] hedgehogs are much more successful than foxes, even though they might not be as [01:31:05] deep or whatever, you know, like whatever it is.

Speaker4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker1: It’s exactly.

Speaker4: That. [01:31:10] Yeah.

Speaker3: It’s been a lovely conversation. I really enjoyed it. Really, really enjoyed it. Really nice. Like, [01:31:15] you went quickly um, and, uh, and, and the end is a wonderful [01:31:20] thing, man. You know, I wish more people considered endo, but I think we’ve all had [01:31:25] a trauma early on. That puts us off. And you always. [01:31:30] You endodontists prey on that.

Speaker4: That’s [01:31:35] true. That’s that’s very true. Yeah.

Speaker1: We don’t need.

Speaker4: To speak to and, uh, and and [01:31:40] see.

Speaker1: If we can convince more and more dentists to go down the.

Speaker4: End of the path and get.

Speaker1: Over their [01:31:45] traumas.

Speaker3: But thank you so much for doing this, buddy. I really enjoyed that.

Speaker1: It’s an absolute pleasure. [01:31:50] Thank you for your time. Thanks for having me.

Speaker2: This is Dental [01:31:55] Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging [01:32:00] leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. [01:32:05] Payman Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Speaker5: Thanks for listening, [01:32:10] guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank [01:32:15] you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what [01:32:20] our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

Speaker3: If you did get some value [01:32:25] out of it, think about subscribing. And if you would share this with a friend [01:32:30] who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so so, so much for listening. Thanks.

Speaker5: And don’t forget [01:32:35] our six star rating.