Category: Podcast

And I see a wide range of different types of clinicians who have different philosophies is the one you’re coming from is about actually giving the patient longevity in terms of their dentistry that you’re offering them, right? Something that’s going to last, not something that, okay, I’m going to change your smile in whatever, 60 minutes, 90 minutes, whatever the latest craze is today. And it’ll look great. But but the habits that you’ve developed to get your teeth to where you were when you stepped in my door have not changed. Right. So you’re going to you’re going to continue to grind. You’re going to continue to, you know, bite bottle tops off of bottles and things like that and screw your teeth up and you’ll be back here in in six months sort of thing.

So and if you can identify and make the patient see where it’s going wrong, some people might look at this and go, Oh, financially this patient will end up spending less in the long run. But if you look at it from the point of view, this is more likely to become a patient that will come back every six months so that we can check for mouth cancers so that we can check their general the health of the gum and the bone. What’s going to happen is if we feel looked after, guess what? If our friend down the pub have a problem with it and every most people are scared of going to the dentist. Most people.

Without question.

Yeah. And if we if this patient can go. Do you know what? Trust me, you need to go to whoever. I don’t even have to say. Just go. You’ll see what I mean. Guess what? You’ll be building your practice long term and you’ll create an environment where patients want to be there. Staff clinicians want to be there, and everything moves in the right direction.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Dental Leaders podcast. Today on Dental Leaders we have Liza Benting, who’s been a dentist for over two decades, has been a practice owner and associate in numerous practices and currently is a team member at Pluto Partners, where she leads essentially negotiations for selling dental practices. What a colourful career she’s had, and I’m looking forward to hearing from you, Lisa, and and just filling in all the bits in in that story of yours. Welcome to the podcast, Lisa.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Lisa, tell me about your backstory. Let’s start right at the beginning where you grew up and your backstory and just your upbringing. Tell me tell me a little bit about that.

I’m originally from sunny Cape Town, South Africa, and the year I qualified was a time when things were changing in South Africa and things were very uncertain in the world of dentistry as far as new rules that were implemented by the government and I qualified in 2000 and in that year about 36. We were 48 at Stellenbosch University and 36 of us decided to come to the UK until such time that they decide what they will do. As far as newly qualified dentists in South Africa is concerned. The plan initially was never to stay. The plan was to go back at some point, but after 2 or 3 years, I had a little girl to Mia, and after 2 or 3 years she settled into the system and schooling. And you look at start looking at things differently. When you start thinking of the family and stability and everything else. And myself and my now ex-husband came over and the plan was always for us to have a family practice together. But with being qualifying in South Africa, we had to do four years within working as assistants. They could call us at the time so that we can apply for a visa number. And in 2006 we applied for visa numbers and set up a family practice together, our own practice. But things didn’t work out. And in 2009 I decided to leave the family practice. And that is actually when, if I can say that my journey within different elements of private and NHS dentistry began. At the time I thought things were falling apart. But actually looking back, I can now see how the dots connect and actually finding myself as an associate versus a principal in different environments. I always used to work full time, but I used to divide my time with three days in one practice, two days in another, and maybe a Saturday.

I’m going to stop you right there. I’m going to take I’m going to take you right back to the time when you thought your whole world was falling apart. Right? So so what were the circumstances that led you to leave the family practice where you said, Right, I’ve had enough. I’ve got my own clinic, I’m my own boss, I’m running this. And doing that is no easy job. Right? So. So you’ve been a practice owner? Yeah. What was it that what were the circumstances around that made you say, Right, this this isn’t for me anymore?

Unfortunately, I found myself in a situation where my marriage broke down. Okay? And with being in that situation, like you’ve mentioned, it’s extremely difficult. But because I don’t think any of us would like a family unit to be broken. But sometimes these difficult decisions, we just know it’s the right decision for everyone. Sure. What was difficult, not only did my personal life, did my personal life feel as if it was falling apart, but my professional life as well, because I was building this, my career and this business and everything else, and stepping away was one of the most difficult things I had to do, both in my personal and professional life. And to a degree it felt like I was starting again. And this is why I would say it felt like everything was falling apart. Having to move from, like you say, being your own boss and then having to work as an associate is quite difficult. And finding a practice where you feel as if you belong, which I think a lot of clinicians can associate with, is quite difficult because there are so many boxes, there are so many variables within dentistry that is very difficult to sometimes get that balance right. You can never tick all your boxes, but I think. We all know we are all different as clinicians, but we all know which boxes we can compromise on and which boxes are non-negotiables. Yeah. And at the time when I say it felt as if was falling apart, I’ve always used to work three days in one, two days in another, maybe even a Saturday emergency clinic and things.

And I used to think after three, four years finding out because it takes a bit of time to settle in a practice, to really know whether it is something where you feel as if you belong. And I found myself certain practices, this one that I stayed for for like 11, 12 years. But some of them after three, four years, I find that it was time to move on. And sometimes that can be seen as somebody that is maybe not never happy, but it could also be somebody that just wouldn’t just settle for something for the sake of settling for it. And when I say looking back, I realise things were actually falling in place. What that gave me is the opportunity over the last. It was 2009. So I would say over the last 13, 14 years, to be able to be exposed to different clinical environments, different dynamics, staff locations, NHS fully, NHS, fully private, mixed everything. And when you are in it, you don’t see the bigger picture. But now, looking back, I’ve accumulated this wealth of experience and knowledge of having an understanding which I feel is actually quite priceless because a lot of times, for all the right reasons, we don’t always find ourselves being able to see the inside of different clinics.

I think that Lisa, I think that’s really interesting. And we’re going to we go into tap into where you are today, right? A little a little bit shorter. But I think your experience brings a lot of a lot of benefits to that role, which you find yourself in at Pluto Partners now sort of advising both, you know, practice owners and potential buyers on, on, on, on, you know, what the future might be or potential exits or a deal that’s ahead of them. And you having been a practice owner, having been through the adversities that you’ve been through. Right. So having been through a divorce, dealing with whatever situations that brings to you mentally and personally and and being at that bottom of that dark hole and bringing yourself back up, having worked in several practices as an associate. But what is it that you wanted? Because every associate is different, right? So what is it that you wanted as an associate that boxes were ticked in, one that weren’t in another? And how was that? How did that align with you as a boss previously when you had associates under you? Right. So I’m really interested to hear that because were you looking for a job where you were looking for Lisa as your boss, or were you looking for a job where you weren’t looking for Lisa as your boss because you’d hate to be your own boss? Right. I’m just curious to explore that part of the conversation and just learn about really what your thought on that. Hope. Hope. My question made sense.

It makes 100% sense and I hope my answer will make sense as well. I think with dentistry, it’s a very unique profession and there’s this balance between the profession and the business. Maybe what I found in certain environments and once again, to no fault, anybody’s fault, it’s just we all have different things that maybe we strive for and wanting to achieve. And sometimes I felt that that balance where the business starts taking over the profession, is such a sense of false economy, because when we invest in our patients and our patients care, what happens is as far as word of mouth and patients feel before they see and when they feel that they’re being looked after, I find that it’s a no brainer. They would they want to come and see you. They’ll tell their family and their friends about that. And sometimes that’s very difficult to try and demonstrate when when you try and get the balance with the business right as well. Because in the short term, it might appear as if it’s just a waste of time. And the more bums on seats we have, the more money we’ll make. But actually what we create is an environment that is potentially unnecessarily stressful in a profession that is already so stressful and demanding with nothing happening. And I think the difficulty as an associate sometimes is everything stops with you. You take 100% responsibility for what you do, yet you have no control over the factors that contribute to what you have, to the environment that you find yourself in in order to deliver. So as far as principal and associate go and the different wearing the different hats, I would say the biggest discrepancy for me was being in a situation where people expected you to deliver a predictable outcome, but giving you conditions that’s impossible to deliver.

Well, give me some examples, Lisa.

So examples of that would be, for instance, time surgery time with patients. Not enough.

Not enough time, not enough.

Time, not enough time. And I totally appreciate that. Time is money. Yeah. Like I say, sometimes it’s a false economy because if you take a shortcut, which you wouldn’t want to do in any case, but if you do because it’s totally out of your control, what happens is you just setting something up for the future where you’ll end up spending more time. Such a lose lose. Lose situation. And as well as putting yourself at risk of litigation. And when it comes to that, you are the only one that will have to stand there and answer and take responsibility for your actions. And another thing would also be staff, the the quality of the staff, the efficiency of the staff. But I appreciate this can also be difficult. And this is where the false economy comes in, because when you stress your staff, no wonder they won’t feel motivated or as clear as in the moment as they should be in order for us to deliver what we have to do. So time staff, sometimes it can even be materials, limited materials and things, because as an associate you don’t have that freedom to get what you would like to use unless you get it yourself. And so this could just be a few things. And then also the staff, the members of the team team is so important because if the team is not performing as a unit, it reflects on everything. And my best way of putting it all together is that as an associate, you can find yourself in the position where if you aren’t there to deliver, nobody else makes sense. The receptionist doesn’t make sense, the nurse can’t do anything. Yet the person that is so important, the clinician, is the one that ends up pulling the short straw at the end of the day. So you have to settle for this or you go, okay, this is how things are. I get it. It’s all fine. This is how we, the principal, maybe would like to run the practice, and that’s absolutely fine. But maybe this is not my environment that I would like to be part of.

Please tell me this. Having said all of that, were you the boss that gave your associates all the time, all the materials they wanted and the conditions that you expect? Was that was that the type of boss that you were?

And yes, I would say and this even stems from this even stems from and I appreciate there’s a balance between the business side of things. But this I feel, even stems from the way that we were brought up. Yeah. If it’s not good enough for you, why is it good enough for someone else? Sure. If it is that you treat people the way that you would like to be treated, then for me that is something that you invest in that will pay dividends moving forward and it has a knock on effect. Your associate feeling valued will make your your associate, your staff feeling valued will make your patients feel as if they are valued and the whole unit just works. But when there’s a weak link, it has a knock on effect for all the wrong reasons and long term you start seeing that it starts to crumble and crumble and it creates an environment sometimes where staff don’t want to be there, they don’t want to be there. Patients don’t want to be there.

Understood. Understood. So, so, so from your point of view and I know you’re sort of saying that time is money and all the rest of it, right? But, you know, you can also waste a lot of very hurried time not delivering optimal treatments to patients, not delivering optimal care. And let’s look at the money side, not delivering the sales that you otherwise would have done had you given those patients more time. Right. And the trust that they have in you will result in let’s not put to put too fine a point on it. You know, larger treatment plans, bigger amounts of money exchanged. Right. And I come across a lot of practice owners, Lisa, that have both sides of that mentality. Some of them who are working on the clock and they’re looking at hourly rates all the time and they’re saying, right, 15 minute appointments for that, 20 minute appointments for this and so on and so forth. So so for you, just just tell me in terms of your appointments with with patients, a typical check-up or a consultation, how much time would you take and what would be your process with that patient in terms of educating them on on maybe what they would need? Just just talk me through that, Lisa.

So if I talk from a from a basic private point of view, I would say I think in general as a new patient, that initial consultation with a patient is so important because this is the point where you start building up your rapport. You get to know your patient a little bit and your patient gets to know you. Sometimes we can even find that. Sometimes the two just don’t go together for whatever reason. And if you can pick that up at that initial consultation, you can save yourself and the patient. A lot of problems moving forward. But that initial consultation is so important. And the thing that I why it’s so important so time wise, I would say new patients, 45 minutes, 45 minutes so that you can gather your information, get to understand your patient, get to understand what they are looking to achieve from their Dental journey, building up a rapport so that when you can actually start helping them or try and explain to them what you can do to help them, that they’ve already built up a little bit of trust and connection with you. In order for you to deliver what you need to deliver to help them. So it works both ways. And sometimes I feel that if that initial connection rapport is not being built, then the patient would end up maybe not feeling comfortable taking on board a treatment plan. And we interpret it as the patient being difficult, as the patient not wanting the treatment. But actually it’s a normal human response to something that if we don’t feel comfortable or we don’t trust, why would we invest in something so first? But I would say is that initial connection is so important for both parties to know whether it’s going to work moving forward, working together.

Also, that initial one is important to understand where is the patient? And the thing I feel passionate about is, is the patient to take responsibility for their Dental health. I did a postgraduate certificate at Eastman and something that stuck with me. One of the lecturers mentioned, he said that we have all these advanced treatments, implants, advanced fillings, materials, crowns, everything. This is brilliant, but if the patient doesn’t maintain it, it’s worth nothing. Yet as far as maintenance goes, I feel that’s an area that is innocently being overlooked because of the lack of time that people have to spend on it. And what he said is he said, if we go ahead and we do all these beautiful, beautiful fillings and crowns and implants and smile makeovers, but the patient doesn’t maintain it. It’s like putting carpets in the house whilst the roof is on fire. What is the point? At some point it’s all going to collapse. But what happens is when we see patients and they keep needing further treatments and or things go wrong ten years down the line, we blame the patient because they didn’t look after it. But did we actually educate them enough to take that responsibility? And when we take the time, we don’t have to do all of it at that initial visit. But when that trust and build up that rapport and just get them to have an understanding, we can build on that moving forward. Because in order for us to help them, they need to come through the door. If they don’t come through the door, you can have the best practice with the best intentions, with the best equipment. If they don’t come through the door, we cannot help them.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And and it’s a slightly different philosophy to what, you know, you get you get some dentists who want to get them in. They want to do the cosmetic dentistry, sell it and away it goes. And I guess from what I’m hearing from you, it’s more about long term care of the patient. Right. And, you know, whether that treatment has to be staged over six, 12, 18, 24 months or whatever that is, you’ll get them there in the end. But that patient has got to commit to looking after what you’re going to put into their mouth, right? Yes. Yes. And so I guess it’s a slightly different philosophy from from a from a clinician’s point of view, as I see. And I see a wide range of different types of clinicians who have different philosophies is the one you’re coming from is about actually giving the patient longevity in terms of their dentistry that you’re offering them, right? Something that’s going to last, not something that, okay, I’m going to change your smile in whatever, 60 minutes, 90 minutes, whatever the latest craze is today. And it’ll look great. But but the habits that you’ve developed to get your teeth to where you were when you stepped in my door have not changed. Right. So you’re going to you’re going to continue to grind. You’re going to continue to, you know, bite bottle tops off of bottles and things like that. And. Screw your teeth up and you’ll be back here in six months sort of thing. So, um.

And if you can identify and make the patient see where it’s going wrong, some people might look at this and go, Oh, financially this patient will end up spending less in the long run. But if you look at it from the point of view, this is more likely to become a patient that will come back every six months so that we can check for both cancers so that we can check their general the health of the gum and the bone. What’s going to happen is if we feel looked after, guess what? If our friend down the pub have a problem with it and every most people are scared of going to the dentist. Most people without.

Question. Yeah.

And if we if this patient can go. Do you know what? Trust me. You need to go to whoever. I don’t even have to say. Just go. You’ll see what I mean. Guess what? You’ll be building your practice long term, and you’ll create an environment where patients want to be there. Staff, clinicians want to be there, and everything moves in the right direction.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Totally agree with you there, Lisa. So sort of moving on with your career. So you’ve how long have you been an associate? Was it when did you leave the practice?

The 2009, 2009?

She had the practice for, what was it, about nine years, is that right?

Three It was because we had to wait to do the number and things only for a short. So it was only three years. Three years.

You built the practice up over three years, left that and then went into your various roles. And, and so fast forward into today. Talk me through what you do now, because I was actually chatting to Max Zucchini or is it zucchini? I think it’s zucchini. Zucchini, Zucchini. It’s definitely zucchini. I used to call him Max Zucchini. And then he then then he reminded me, Prav, if you want to remember my name, just think of a zucchini. Yeah. And just think back on it. So it’s a zucchini. Anyway, so speaking to Max, and he told me that you join Pluto Partners, and, you know, Pluto is a company who helped helped me exit from from my dental practice and many of my clients as well. I’ve got a lot of love and time for Max. But how did that come about? Just just talk to me about that journey. How did you first meet? I’ll tell you about the story of when I met Max. It’s really interesting. Tell me yours.

Honestly, life is amazing. Like I say, we look at it in the in the moment and we don’t realise how it’s actually setting things up to come together further down the line. So I always felt that there was so much more to me than just being a clinician. I always felt that I enjoyed industry. I love helping patients. I don’t have a problem with that, but I always felt there was more, but for different reasons. As far as timing goes, it was just I feel that 22 years full time in dentistry, that is how it had to be. But leading up to that, two years before the pandemic, I thought that maybe the reason I feel there was more to me was to expand my Dental knowledge, like maybe I should specialise in something. But if I’m honest with you, there’s not one thing that jumps out at me. I can’t say, Oh, implants or perio or ortho, nothing. So I decided to do a postgraduate degree at Eastman. That’s where Eastman comes in. And.

And when? When was this? At what point in your career was it just before the pandemic? This was.

Just 2018. Was my first year. 2018, just before just before. And I decided to do a master’s in restorative because of the fact that it was quite wide. It would just enhance your skill as far as restorative dentistry is concerned. So it wasn’t just focusing on one thing. It was for me quite a wide just enhancing skills because I couldn’t pinpoint what in dentistry I wanted to focus on. Then I did the certificate. I then did the first year of the diploma, and then the second year of the diploma was when the when the pandemic hit. And for many people, I think the pandemic was quite an eye opener. And what it taught me or what I took from that is I realised that it wasn’t my skill in dentistry that I was that was the problem. The missing piece, not it wasn’t that what was actually missing for me was the fact that those four walls of the surgery was limiting me, was restricting me, was acting almost like a hindrance. Because even if and I admire the advance that how advanced dentistry is and what clinicians can deliver, but you still end up within those four walls with a patient, with a nurse. And for me, I realised that was actually the problem. It was time for me to get away from those four walls and get out. But where do I go? What do I do? I just knew clinical dentistry full time was not for me anymore and this is where I started looking at where do I go from here? The thing with property and I know dental sales is not property, but the thing with property for me and this was in the pandemic is something that is so different to clinical. And it almost to a degree, it’s like a part of my brain that was not tapped into because of.

But where does property come into the mix right now? Have you have you have you, though, before.

Before the pandemic? If when I started thinking, okay, side hustle, what else do okay. The only thing that I thought of was property and why property I think became attractive is the fact that it’s just so different to dentistry. Totally different. It’s a totally different field. It is just it’s just and it gives you that freedom of anything, any time versus dentistry being restricted. So that at first I was just thinking very wide. So I started reading up a little bit more. I actually signed up to find out more out about deal packaging, things like that. And then when the pandemic hit, it also reminded us that when we don’t go into a surgery as a dentist, then we are stuffed in a way because if we don’t see a patient and if we don’t have a nurse and that physically, clinically that doesn’t happen, then we we’re no different to anybody else out there that’s at home. And obviously unless you have courses and things that you can offer. But as far as the clinical side, unless we’re in the surgery, we can’t deliver. And this is also when I started thinking, oh my goodness, maybe something like property is something that is a little bit less restrictive. You can do it from anywhere in the world. You can in your own time and something you can do parallel whilst you’re still busy doing your dentistry. And it’s in 2021 that I realised that I had to close one door or, or or slightly close one door in order to create space mentally and to create time to start working on what is my next chapter, what is the next door?

Why, why, why at this? What happened at that point? Was that was there a moment where you said, okay, this this has happened now or there must have been. Yeah, like some something that happened or a moment to say, right. In 2021, I have to close the door. What was that? What was that moment?

What happened there is, as you can probably pick up from what I’ve already said, I was I was gravitating towards that decision, but actually didn’t take it because I was still quite comfortable doing, you know, when you’re in a comfort zone, you just end up staying in your comfort zone because it’s. Isn’t it? It’s safe. Yeah. And why would we want to create uncertainty if we’re in a nice little safe place and it’s working? But when I had the first vaccine, the COVID vaccine, I was quite unwell and I it created symptoms like chronic fatigue. And my my brain just was just so slow I could still work as a dentist. I could still perform. But I was very much aware of how the strain it was taking on my brain and the intensity. Whereas before we none the wiser how hard this muscle actually works. And this also made me realise that now is the time for me. Whilst I still have the ability to make a change, I need to make a change because if not even health wise, I’m starting to run out of options if I don’t start putting something in place. Because for dentistry, mentally you have to be in the zone and on top form in order to deliver. And so my turning point was the wake up call, I would have to say, is when my health was affected. And it reminded me of how also how fragile life is. And sometimes we plan on doing things, but we put it off and then things can just change in a blink of an eye. So not only was it the health, health wise being able to think the effects it had on me and how much it took from me to deliver as a clinician, but also the wake up call as in life is precious and it can change so quickly. If you don’t do things, you put it off. But if you don’t do things, you could end up finding yourself in a position where you never actually achieve what you wanted to do.

Okay, so what happened next?

So the next, which was okay, it’s a no brainer. I know exactly which door to open next, but I knew which door to start closing and I need to start taking action. I handed my notice in and actually worked at.

So so let me just. So you handed your notice in before you had any options on the table, Right? It’s not as though you said, hold on a minute. I’ve got this great opportunity here. I’m going to hand my notice it. Now, you actually decided, you know what, I’m going to make some head space. And in order to do that, I’m going to I’m going to take a risk. And that risk is to kiss goodbye to this income and this job and whatever. Yes. And then figure it out because I know I need to do something else, but I don’t know what that is. Right. Exactly. Very brave. Very brave.

And Prav, it was a case of if you look at it on paper, I was in a very safe space being my pandemic and everything, because of course, I had a job at Jacob being the dentist there. Jacob the Digger company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a very safe, like I said earlier, safe comfort zone, certainty, everything. Yeah. Good work environment as well. But I knew.

Got whatever materials you wanted.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Spend the time with the patients that you wanted. Yeah, Yeah. Beautiful. Couldn’t ask for anything more.

And this one? I still knew it wasn’t where I was supposed to be.

All right.

So by taking that risk, you can see there was it was it took a lot to take that step. But I couldn’t deny the fact that it was still holding me back from what I felt I had to give and what I felt where I could be. And when I say could be, this is not me chasing money because it was just chasing money. Where would I stay in dentistry, isn’t it?

Yeah, of course.

So this is an opportunity and there’s nothing wrong with having a lot of money, but this is an opportunity that if I stepped away from it, I give myself a chance of achieving what I feel I have the potential to achieve. And that being getting out there, being able to make a difference still in dentistry, but from a different angle. And how it came about is I handed my notice in, didn’t know which door to open, but I knew I had to close this one in order to have some hope of some direction as to where to go.

And just just to pick up on what you just said there, you said selling dentistry, but from a different angle. Was that in your head at that moment when you were closing the door? Definitely.

Yeah.

It definitely revolved around sales. Is that is that was that something that was clear in your mind and something that you were passionate about at the time?

I feel what I used to think that sales was very I want to use the word dirty is not the use.

It most people do. Right? It’s a dirty.

Word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But what I’ve learned is that everything is sales. And if we have something that can add value to someone’s life, then we have a duty to, to, to help them. And in order and I don’t necessarily talk monetary, but in order to make that difference, we need people to buy into us. And you know what was very evident Prav and what was very for me was very almost reassuring, is I’ve been doing this for the last 22 years without even realising it, having the ability to help a patient making a difference, whether it’s their oral hygiene, whether it’s a filling, whether it’s an extraction, whether it’s getting rid of infection, whether it’s whatever, in order to help that patient, that patient needs to buy into you. And if they don’t buy into you, that is when the relationship starts going in the wrong direction. But if we don’t go out there and make people aware of what we have that can help them, then we actually not serving them correctly. And this is where the sales side comes in. And it is correct because if I then try and use my experience in clinical dentistry, not the clinical side, but the sales side, where we have something that we can offer to a patient, you will not believe how similar this is with the role that I have right now. There are so many similarities between us seeing a patient as a clinician, gathering information, getting the patient to understand exactly what’s happening, explaining to the patient in a language that they get where we are, where we need to get there, and how we need that patient on board.

Because it’s a team effort. It’s very similar with this type of job. So leaving the clinical side, I knew I wanted to go into making a difference, helping serving, if I could call it that. And that is where the sales side of things came in. So there’s a friend of mine that studied with me in Stellenbosch, Irvin Vanderveldt. He’s a clinician as well, and we have been in contact. And because he is part of a bigger group and more on the business side of dentistry, when I left clinical dentistry, I sent him a message. I said, Eben, do you could you give me some guidance, some advice? I don’t need a job. I just want to if now that you are on the other side, on the business side, as a clinician, what is my what would my options be? And most of the options were from a clinical point of view, which I knew. Nope, not interested. Not interested. Not interested because I was going back into those four walls. And then this was in May and then in July he said that, you know, Lisa, I’m going to put you in touch with Tracy. She’s a from South Africa. She’s a recruitment agent. And maybe you can have a little word with her because she might know a little bit more about these different options that’s available for clinicians out there.

And I contacted Tracy and I explained to her what I where I was and I did a cover letter so she could pick up that I wanted to go into the sales side of things. I spoke to her on the Monday and she had three options that she was thinking of. Bear in mind, I’ve not verbally spoken to her. The one was some like a supervisor know. Another one was maybe helping clinicians. That’s coming from other countries and getting the exact no. And the third one was Dental practice sales negotiator. I didn’t even know that was what the name was. I just knew it was the person buying and selling Dental That’s helping with buyers and sellers. Yeah. And then she said, But I’ve got no roles available that you could step into or that’s available that I can put your CV forward. But I helped the dentist six months ago with recruiting an associate, and I know that he is part of a company. He’s a director in one of a company that deals with this type of thing, buying and selling of dental practices. Let me speak to him. So if he knows of anyone that is looking for somebody like that. And this dentist was actually Peter Classen, who’s from South Africa. Okay. He is a director of Pluto.

Partners Pluto Partners.

So by the time Tracy contacted them, they were actually looking for somebody that has got the experience on the clinical side, because the business side is something that you can learn, like I did the valuation certificate and things, but.

You’re.

Already a business owner, right? You your experience and this is where I think your story is so interesting, Lisa, because you’ve as somebody who I may choose to and I’m sorry for interrupting you there, but we’ll come we’ll come back to it. But as somebody that may choose to sort of represent me, if I was thinking of selling my practice, who better than somebody, first of all, who’s taken all the formal qualifications, understands negotiation, valuation and that but has also been in my shoes, being a practice owner, being an associate understands the business of dentistry. She is a practising dentist. I think it’s really I think it’s a really interesting story. So so whilst you’ve been telling me this story, I’ve known what the end of the story is because, you know, we were introduced as, you know, as you, you know, being a part of the Pluto team. But it’s just interesting piecing that together with that narrative that’s sitting over my head. So you obviously got introduced to Peter. Yeah, you’ve done the qualifications and then carry on, Sorry.

Lisa No.

Problem. And that is how my paths crossed with Max Zucchini. Okay. And the timing, like I say, what they were looking for and what I was looking for just came together at a time when we weren’t even looking for each other. And this is why I say, you look back and you think, Wow, what happened? Times when I thought doors were closing, it was actually opening towards the one where I have to be at this point in time. And you know, what I’m so grateful for is the the is I don’t even know if the word is ethos of Pluto partners and how they go about things because it’s so aligned with what I said to you earlier about taking care of this patient, taking care of this client. And every single patient, every single client is treated as if that is the only client that we have, because that is what. Everybody deserves. Because without the client, we are nothing without the patient. We as clinicians are nothing. And what I feel grateful for is having this understanding that whether a buyer is a new first time buyer or whether a seller is at the end of their dentistry and they’re looking to retire two totally separate ends of the spectrum.

But for both, what a massive step there is. And then we have us in the middle that can be make or break because the clinician that’s retiring has been growing this baby for the last 35, 40, however many years. Yeah. Stress, heart, everything, blood, sweat and tears that’s gone into it. And what you can’t afford for is for it to go wrong when you finally looking to let go of this baby. Yeah. And then you have the ones starting out who’s now going to have the baby for the first time. What happens if you buy into something and it’s not and you take take on increased risk when it goes wrong, it could be the end of you. It’s not just you, your family, your wife, your everything. But then you have us in the middle. That is such a fortunate position that can help to make sure that when we step into this agreement or in this equation, that we can make sure that all parties involved can step away from this, having it have the desired outcome for all the right reasons.

And so tell me about you touched upon the values of Pluto partners being very much aligned with with your own values. And you mentioned it was a bit like having, you know, one customer and that’s your only customer or having that one patient in the room, and that’s the only patient that you’re seeing at that time. And you give them a 100% of the attention. Is there anything else you can tell me about about values and what that what that really means to you and how that reflects in sort of your conversations with potential sort of practice owners who are looking to maybe move on to the next stage of their career.

So as far as the opportunity so if I was to look at try and compare to from a clinician’s point of view, remember earlier I said how important it is for an associate to have the right environment. And this is exactly the same thing working me being at Pluto Partners and having the right environment actually puts me in a much stronger position that when I speak to that clinician, having the understanding of what goes hand in hand with a day of stress and so many factors that we cannot control within dentistry, the last thing you want is that when somebody like a agency comes on board to help you either buy or sell a practice is for them to become an added stress. But in order for me to help the clinician, Pluto Partners is helping me to be in a stronger position to do so. And in doing so, it becomes win, win win. Yeah, but imagine I was in a position where I feel I am not as I don’t feel looked after, I don’t feel I have the right. I’m not aligned with what I’m trying to do. Yeah, no doubt that that will will overflow to when I speak to that clinician. And what then ends up happening is we have a typical lose lose lose situation. So something that could have ended up being beneficial for everyone could end up being something where we’ve wasted the opportunity or because from the from the off, we didn’t have the foundations in place.

Now I’m going to ask you some questions that probably devil’s advocate type questions when it comes to brokerage, right. Which is, you know, I could, if I owned a practice, go directly to the buyer and just strike the deal. Okay. I cut you out. I don’t have to pay you a fee now. Yeah, just just give me your take on that. That why should somebody come to a broker to say, like yourself or anyone else versus just handle the deal by themselves?

If we talk, if we’re talking clinical, it’s almost like cutting the dentist out and going to boots and buying yourself a little temporary kit and fixing your filling yourself. Okay, you filling, you can fix it, but you don’t have a clue what you’re doing and you’ll probably end up causing more problems than actually making it better. Yeah, but why would you have to use an agency is because there are so many different elements to buying and selling a dental practice. I try and use the analogy of an orchestra. There are so many different instruments and it’s very important to make sure that all these different instruments play at the right time, at the right tune, so that when it comes together that it makes the right music. So, for instance, when we look at valuing a practice, we need to gather the right information, because if we don’t gather the right information, then we will not be able to put it together in a certain way in order to get to the right valuation or the EBITDA as we call it, for that practice. Yeah. Now, if you don’t know what to gather, what hope do you have in order to get to the right outcome or if you don’t, if you know what to gather but you don’t know how to put it together, what hope do you have in getting to the right calculation which then affects. Evaluation. And if you don’t know how you got to the evaluation or whether it’s the right valuation or not, how can you even start to negotiate? And this is where you increase your risk. You increase your risk as a seller where you could end up finding yourself in a situation where you don’t get the value for your practice. And as far as a buyer, you will increase your risk as far as buying something that you’ve overpaid for. But it will under-deliver. And this is what we go from. We want our sellers to get the maximum value.

And you want your buyers to get the best deal. Minimum risk.

Exactly. And when you do that. But in order to do that, you need to know. You need to sing off the same hymn sheet. And we are there to orchestrate all of this and put together the hymn sheet.

And so if we look at. Dentistry and we look at selling dental practices. Where’s your Which one do you prefer?

Selling Dental practices? Definitely. Definitely.

Oh, wow. Wow.

However, however, I have found because I have it part time, both of them because I’ve got them part time, I actually enjoy the clinical side More now. More now. Yes. Yes. Definitely. Definitely.

Almost reignited your passion for for dentistry because you’ve got this other role as well, right?

Because it’s not I didn’t feel trapped. And when I said those four walls, I think prior to this, I felt as if it was starting to suffocate me. But because I now have this that I’m doing, it actually has made me look at the clinical side and appreciate it instead of seeing it as a a trauma or a hindrance.

And so moving forward, what what what do you think? Do you think your balance is going to change now or do you think you’ve got the perfect balance in terms of dentistry versus brokerage? Or because you love brokerage more, you want to move more towards that side full time? What’s what’s your heart telling you?

Do you know this is this is just the beginning. This is just the beginning. I would love to be able to share what I’ve had, what I’ve experienced, because as clinicians Prav, I think there’s so much expected of us to know from a business point of view. And it’s but yet nobody actually informs us of it or tells us or says some clinicians are more, I believe, naturally gifted to have more of the general knowledge or interest in the business side. And some of us maybe don’t have all of that information. And what it does, it creates this grey area for clinicians where we have all these different hats that we’re supposed to wear, but we don’t actually have clarity on some of them. But everybody else seems to we think everybody else have clarity. So we should be having the clarity. And what I would love to do moving forward is making that grey area less grey when it comes to buying and selling a dental practice. And just like I’ve experienced, it’s not as complicated. Just like a patient might think, Oh, I don’t understand root canals or what’s involved with this or another. If you have the ability to be able to put it across to somebody in a way where they can, in a language that they understand, then it actually makes things so much clearer. And as we do with patients, when patients have the information and they understand the information, they can make informed decisions. And this is what I would love to do as part of my role is as we help people and we deal with buyers and sellers and even the ones who’s not buying and selling, if it is that we can make that grey area less grey, we end up with clinicians or practice owners or potential practice owners. That’s more informed. And when they then make a decision, they instantly reduce their risk, whether it’s buying or selling, because they’ve had the information, they can make an informed decision.

So you think that actually moving forward, business education as a whole is something that dentists need to know a lot more about prior to even considering selling the practice, right?

Yes, prior to even selling.

Because if it is that there are certain things that you can start putting in place or even just start thinking in a certain way, you don’t physically have to do things. You can find yourself that when you are ready, whether it’s buying or selling, you are in a much stronger position versus going into something almost a bit more blindfolded. And when you go into something blindfolded, we could end up yes, we make the decisions ourselves. But those decisions was either made in the heat of the moment or they were made not having the right information.

Got you. Understood? Yeah. Okay. I think, you know, I thought this was going to be a much shorter conversation than it was Lisa, but I think we just both got carried away. I was really interested in learning about your story. Yeah. What I’d actually what I’ve got I’ve got another question before we go on to a few more questions, which is what’s a typical week in the life of Lisa? Like how does that get broken up? Tell me about like what you do day to day. What do you do outside of work? Give me give me a give me a breakdown of what a week of being Lisa venting is all about.

I can tell you it’s very, very busy, but enjoyable. So I would find, especially with this position that I have within Pluto partners, they are different dynamics involved, whether it be meeting practice owners in person and going to view practices. It could also be a case of where I deal with buyers that’s just approaching us from maybe projects that we’ve launched. So there could be lots of telephone calls that could happen. There’s also a lot of administration side, the emails and things going out, because once you’ve contacted somebody, you obviously have to follow it up. So it’s a combination of in-person slash telephone calls, slash admin side of things, and then at the same time touching base with Max because very important, we all have to sing from the same hymn sheet and we all have to know exactly what’s happening where with all the different things that we do. So I would say combination of in-person emails, phone calls, but a lot of it is work from home, which I absolutely love. Absolutely love, absolutely love that flexibility that it gives me to do also work in practice. So on a Saturday I work in practice and I find that when I do that, it is just so enjoyable because of the fact that it’s so totally different and outside work. I maybe I should be going to the gym more often. I put my hands up. I don’t go to it as frequently as I should, but I do enjoy, enjoy just being outdoors, especially now that the weather is getting better and things like that. So, yes, you know, maybe I can do more as far as work life balance is concerned, but when you enjoy your work, it doesn’t feel like work. And maybe people can have different opinions on that. But I thoroughly enjoy the fact that you can connect with somebody and make things a little bit easier and better for them moving forward.

I can definitely look, Lisa, you know, a lot of people will be listening to this, maybe only in the audio format. Some people will see it on the video format, but you’re absolutely beaming and glowing when you talk about Pluto and the opportunity there and your work there. Right. And it’s very clear to me that you’re you’re super passionate about that. Right? And just just because of that, it will it will bring you tons of success, I’m sure, right? I’m absolutely sure. And I’ve got some I’ve got some final questions for you that are totally unrelated to what we’ve been discussing and it’s something that we cover on the Dental Leaders podcast. Okay. So I’ve got I’ve got one set of questions, which is perhaps final questions. And my final question is this, that if it was your last day on the planet, Lisa. And you were surrounded by your loved ones. What pieces of advice would you leave them with?

First thing would be to be true to who you are inside. I feel that with its society, with the way the world goes. How? How difficult is it for people just to accept us for who we are? It’s it’s not asking a lot, is it? It’s something that is so almost frowned upon where if you just true to who you are for yourself. So the first thing would be be true to who you are. Be yourself. Be yourself. And the other thing that I also would say is that. Life was never meant to be easy. Although as human beings, it’s natural for us to want to gravitate towards an easier. But it’s only when you go through the challenges and it takes you to the next, but that you appreciate it for what it is. Because otherwise we’ll just be stuck and we wouldn’t grow. And I know it’s so I would say the next would be that life is not easy, but when it’s easy, we should get concerned because then we should ask ourselves, Is it actually worth it? I would say just be true. Just be true to who you are.

It’s it’s a it’s a really difficult question, Right? Nothing else at all?

Yeah.

The biggest one for me is be true to who you are.

Be true.

To who you are and.

Be.

Yourself. Because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, if you have if you are content and comfortable with who you are, that is what’s important because I think it’s so easy to strive to get the approval of people and it’s just something that keeps going and going. So to be true to who you are. But it’s difficult. It’s difficult because this world will make us believe the opposite, that we are that we are. Odd one out.

And then payments. Final question, which is imagine fantasy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive, who would they be?

Alive. This could be anyone.

Dead or alive. Anyone. Doesn’t matter.

Anyone in the world?

Definitely. My mom, she’s in South Africa. And so terribly So. She’ll definitely be. She’ll definitely be at the party. Um. Oh, goodness me. It’s a tricky one. Definitely not my ex-husband. That one I know of.

We know who we’re excluding. Excluding?

Yeah. We can go on and on and on. Okay. Um. The tricky one. You had to give me a bit more time to think about this.

Anyone famous? Not famous. Past. Present.

Oh.

I love to. I love it. I wouldn’t be able to I can’t think of anyone else.

Any.

Any anyone who you’ve looked up to who’s inspired you, be it a celebrity or. Anyone you’d love to meet at a dinner party.

The.

Political or not famous or not. Past or present. Mum, we’ve got mum. Two more.

People leaving. I’ve got dream.

Party. Right. Imagine the most amazing party. Right. And you got your mum there. Who else would you. Two more people to make it the most awesome party ever.

Oh, I would love to. Do you know who I’d love to have there? Trevor. Noah.

Trevor Noah.

I love his humour. I love the fact that to me, he’s just that. What you see is what you get through to is and how far he’s come as well. So Trevor Noah And the last one would have to be. My daughter. The reason I say that is because I don’t know where this will go. This will go. But the reason I say that is the last 23 years was a very tough 23 years. And just like I thought I was being there for her, she’s actually the one that kept me going. So for us to have this conversation, if it wasn’t for her, I don’t think we would be having this conversation.

So beautiful.

So lovely. Yeah.

See a daughter, your mom and then Trevor Noah to basically entertain you and make you laugh, right?

Exactly. Exactly. Have some comedy there. Exactly.

Brilliant.

Exactly. Brilliant. Yeah. Happy days.

Well, Lisa, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say. Because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

If you did get some value out of it, Think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks.

And don’t forget our six star rating.

Motivation is an excuse my language for anyone who doesn’t like swearing, but motivation is completely utter bullshit. It lasts maybe 24 hours, 48 hours a week if you’re.

Lucky, But.

Discipline and routine will always prevail, as you know. I mean, like you said, you’ve come from a competitive environment yourself. I know for a fact when I’m coaching individuals, if you can build a routine which works for you and it might be what works for your self, Prav may not work for me. What works for me may work for some of my my male clients or my female clients. You just need to work at trying to thinking about simple, measurable steps every single day that allows you to take control of your well-being. So it might be okay. Go to the gym twice a week. That’s better than you doing nothing.

Different things for different people, right?

Absolutely.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Rohan, welcome to the latest podcast. It’s great to have you here. And just by way of introduction, Rohan is the online dentists fitness coach. We were just have a little bit of preamble earlier, Rohan and you were saying that obviously you’ve got a career in dentistry, that’s what your career is. But you know both of your colleagues and for yourself, there’s a lot more to life than just teeth, right? And as well as looking after your patients, put your own put your own oxygen mask on first. Right. Exactly. So usually we start with your backstory and where you grew up and parents and all that sort of stuff. We are going to come back to that. But I’m really intrigued how you got into the whole fitness thing and why that’s become a priority for you. And then we’ll talk about talk about why you decided to take it to a level where you’re now coaching and helping dentists to to get more out of their life than just teeth.

Yeah, I mean, that’s a bloody good question. Firstly, thanks for having me on here.

Pleasure. Pleasure.

It’s an interesting story. I mean, I guess everyone likes a good story. That’s the best thing about this podcast. We get to learn about each other and learn from other people’s experiences. My transition from dentistry into fitness or how fitness came a big part of my life. Probably not the most conventional way. For me, it’s it was all about actually when my mental health really took a turn for the worst. It was actually an undergraduate level. I was actually always a very active individual. Like most people when they’re at school, they do something right. They’ll do maybe football, club, hockey, rugby, whatever it may be. And I seem to, you know, school level enjoy myself. I never was very anxious. I was very much one of those guys. If I did well, if I worked hard, I knew I could put my effort in and I’d get the results.

So were you when you say did well, do you mean physically in sports and stuff or just academics?

Academics, just generally in life? It wasn’t one of those things. Interestingly, I always found like if I just put my effort into whatever aspect of life it was, whether it be public speaking, dentistry, fitness, I tended to see, you know, what you put in the work, you get the results. Then what happened was when I went to university, I went to do my my Bede’s in Bristol in 22,008, and it was the first time in my career or let’s just say academic life, what I realised, shit, I’m not the smartest person in the room. And suddenly I realised, okay, I’ve got some perfectionism traits here. I’ve got potentially this need to always succeed and impress myself. My parents and I realised I put a lot of pressure on myself and I realised I’m not. None of this stuff really comes out naturally to me. And I remember that the biggest turn point was I remember my first year anatomy spot exam and I was trying to put pen to paper and no matter how much I studied, shit didn’t click for me and I realised I was starting to become more and more an anxious person. And I realised I start to have almost like an anxiety sort of sort of panic attack sort of situation, kind of cropping up more and more into my, my undergraduate level.

And Rohan, how did that manifest itself? You say anxiety, panic for those, those who don’t. Is it that just awareness of your heartbeat and a feeling feeling upstairs? Is, is it that sort of thing or is it a feeling of like failure? Where where like if we take you back to A-levels, GCSE or whatever it was that you did back then, Right. Yeah, I’m assuming you just smashed all of those and there was, there was none of that going on back there, right?

I mean, it’s interesting. I guess it kind of comes back to a little bit my back story. I was in a really fortunate position. My parents put me through private education. They worked their socks off. They sacrificed a lot financially to put me in a good place. And what my mum always said to me as a kid was lip row. You’ve been given this opportunity, your dad working extremely hard abroad five days a week. You’re not seeing him very much.

Don’t.

Don’t take it for granted. I don’t care what you do. The grades aren’t important, but give it your everything. And fortunately, like GCSEs, A-levels, it worked out well. I got my straight A’s, got my stars and A’s and got into university. It seemed quite routine, but then I was put in a different environment and suddenly I noticed my response to the stress was different. It ended up being, like you said, physically, it would be things like literally in that exam paper, I wanted to put pen to paper, but my hand didn’t move.

Or it.

Would be a case.

Of, I’m.

Not going to lie. I had at one point some eating disorders. I would not eat because I felt so anxious. And by fifth year, like my my back five, I remember I was.

Like.

59, 60 kilos. And for a person who’s like, what, five foot seven, five, four, eight, I was pretty much sick and bone.

I was.

Barely sleeping. I wasn’t looking after myself and I thought this this isn’t me. I mean, I was trying to cast my brain back to the good days and I was thinking I was active. I was confident. I was looking after myself. I was eating just like a normal person. But I felt great within myself. And I realised one of the things I wasn’t doing was taking care of myself. So this is.

Where.

The fitness came back. I was like, What do I know? Or What did I know in those years that I had? I had routine. My mom made a great meal for me, lunch and dinner every day. I would always have hot food on the table and I was active and that was something which was missing. I used to play rugby to a high, high.

Level at school.

But when it came to university, that all or nothing mentality of, you know what, it’s the.

Books.

And it has to be the books.

What I want to just wrap my head around this is this five year period where you went from whatever you were weighing to 60 kilos, not looking after yourself, even though you knew that was important. Intelligent guy. Yeah, but how do you go into that? I guess. I don’t know. You explained to me. Is it a mode of self destruct or is it a mode of. I know, but there are other things that are a priority or is it that the anxiety taken over so much that you weren’t able to look after yourself or the first time on your own right away from home? Exactly.

Because it’s it’s a new experience for anyone going to university. I think you’re figuring out who you are. It’s the first time you’re finding your own opportunity to fend for yourself, make decisions. Simple things like cooking meals, like learning what to prioritise, how to spend your money, how to to. No one tells you at university, do this, you’re not set homework. They just say, look, you’ve got you’ve got semester, here’s your exam to crack on. You can decide to go to your lectures. You can decide to study. It was a case of put it on you. Interesting. I’ve never had a problem with motivation and in fact, I just took it to the extreme where I didn’t have maybe someone to say, Look, rein it in a bit. Calm down. I was just going, You know what? I’ve got this opportunity. Don’t. I don’t want to squander it. And rather than looking at it as, okay, let’s go work tonight then maybe have a couple of beers with your friends and then maybe go to the gym tomorrow. It was like, No, no, I felt guilty when I wasn’t studying. I remember in fifth year it would be, gosh, I was trying to do stupid things like preparing for finals. I remember trying to do like 18, 19 hours days, just thinking the more I did, the better.

Yeah. And who is if we go back to sort of the message from you folks, right? You mentioned your mom and don’t squander that opportunity back at school. You were the smartest kid in the class or one off, right? Yeah. And then you moved to this environment where maybe you’re not the smartest kid in the room. Were you were you striving to be like, is that why you were putting the hours in? Did you so were you one of these kids who sort of said, you know what, I just want to pass? No, I don’t care. I just want to pass on. So you want.

To. Okay, wait, wait, wait. Let’s let’s be I’ll be honest with you.

I did it.

I didn’t know what it was to think like that. Initially, it was I wanted to do well. I wanted to be proud of myself. I wanted to make my parents proud. And it’s strange because not you know, it’s not like I had the crack of the as the Indians call it, the champ or the super coming out saying, I’m going to do a chop with a slipper. By the way, guys.

Your mum’s your mum’s.

Slipper. Come on in the back of your head if you’ve done something wrong. I was never under that pressure. And actually I’m really fortunate. My dad was like, Whoa, I’m proud of you. If you give it your everything and if you do your best. My mum was also the same. I think it was more self inflicted, which is interesting. So yeah, I guess I was a motivated individual, but I just took it a little too far.

So look, I had a very similar experience in that Look, I at school, I was I was the smartest kid at school. I didn’t go to a great school. So it wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t surrounded by talent, shall we say. And then when I went to university, having been to a normal state school, end up at Oxford University, and I am surrounded by kids who’d done more A-levels than me play off and, you know, play the instruments, do this, do that. And I’m like, What am I doing here? Right? I just felt completely lost. But there was one thing I had I knew I had. I knew I had graft in me, right? Yeah. And I knew that academically I could perform. And, and in my mind it’s strange to visualise and go back, but in med school we had this photograph of all the kids, right? All these little, little passport type photographs and everyone gets one spot on their wall. Right. Yeah. And I used to literally I had all my competition on that and said I would beat you and you. And you and you. Yeah, that was me. And, and that was. That was competition for me, right? It was all academic. Yeah. But because I was the smartest kid at school, I wanted to be the smartest kid at university as well. And in the class and all the rest of it. Right. And. And there was definitely a pressure there. Yeah, there was definitely a pressure there. Self self-imposed. But similarly. Right. You know, my dad always used to say that the reason I’m working so hard is so that you don’t have to write the reason I’m doing everything that I do so that you can have a better future.

I think that’s a big agenda in our culture, though. I really do. I mean, talking to a lot of south east Southeast Asians, it’s a case of they’ve come our parents, our grandparents came to this country and in an opportunity where they didn’t have many opportunities, they had to beg, borrow and steal. They had to graft. And I think we’ve now got this environment and it’s almost like a gift on a fucking golden plate. And you’re thinking, Right, what do I do with it? I can I can do something about.

It or.

I can squander it.

Yeah. And it is a pressure. I don’t know whether you felt that pressure whilst you during those five years, but I certainly I certainly did, you know, and part of me wanted to want to impress Dad. Right. I’ll be honest. Yeah. I was always striving to make him proud.

Yeah, I completely relate to that too. So that’s a my wife always turns around to me, says you get that glint in your eye when your dad says, Well done, son. And I’m like, Well, it’s weird. I don’t. I don’t.

He’s never said anything to me, but I just like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah. So that’s, that’s where I guess it kind of where I realised when my balance was off off track and I realised I needed something to kind of pull me and kind of pull me back down to earth. That’s where fitness was my, my, my key.

But what was the moment? What was the pivotal moment? You were, you were down in the dumps. You were, you were feeling anxious. All of this was there like a moment, a sliding doors moment, something that happened that you remember anything? I think, yeah.

I wouldn’t say I can remember at the moment per se, but I remember the feeling. The feeling was when I looked at myself in the mirror, said, I’ve forgotten who you are. And this is what I when I looked in the reflection, it was like, This isn’t me. I saw this guy who was his posture, was shrivelled, struggled over like his shoulders were slumped forward. He looked fresh, he looked frail, he looked small. And it was almost like there was a part of me. I felt like, hold on, I’m not taking care of me. And that actually made me more upset more than anything. And then I’ve actually gone on to have some some mental health support through therapy. And I remember that was one of the big turning points in my therapy, was actually accepting it was okay for me to feel that way. That was a part of my life. And actually, you know what? I’m grateful to God that it happened because it’s allowed me to become the person who I am today. To do what I do would work with clients like myself, like other dentists and doctors who are somehow now struggling with their health and fitness in many ways. But also it gave me an opportunity to perhaps end up here talking to you guys. I met my wife. You know, I’m I’m blessed right now, so I don’t look at it with negativity. I look at it as it was a pivotal point for me to realise, okay, where do we go from here?

Okay, so you crawled out of that hole. You you what? You found Fitness. Just talk me through that.

Well, what I knew as I said, what I knew, which work for me was routine. So I started to build a routine. It was a very arbitrary, very Google it yourself, figure it out. And I’ll be honest with you, it was complete and utter bullshit routine initially, but it worked for me. It was a case of, okay, I’m going to start going to the gym and it really starts to flourish. When I left university, it was a case of I’m going to start eating foods which are nutritious. I started doing all the things which I wouldn’t do today, like no carbs. After six, I started hydrating. Well, go to the gym four or five times a week. I started to just take that time to work on me. And I use that one hour of the day to help. When I felt anxious after my VTI year or a tough day as an associate, it became my output. So I realised, okay, I can channel this energy some way, I can utilise it and put it into something which is productive so I can feel anxious. Okay, cool. How can I use that better for me? How can I spend that energy in a nicer way? All right, cool. And the next thing, how can I build on that? What could I do? I’m not.

I didn’t sleep very well at university. Maybe I’ll try and aim to sleep 7 hours a night. And then from there, it was another thing. It was, okay, I’ll eat some more. More nutritious foods. I’ll drink a bit more water from. And then it was just sort of snowball effect when I realised, Oh, okay, now I feel a little bit more confident. My body started to change. It was then a sort of a natural strange pathway, but a natural pathway. I kind of threw myself into a challenge because I like challenges, clearly. In 2015, I actually threw myself into a bodybuilding competition, just completely unknowing what I was getting myself into. And I said, You know what? I’ve always had goals. I always like to challenge. Let me try something different to dentistry. Keep that going. But let’s just give myself another focus on something to focus on. And I realised how much I loved it. And it’s gone on to now be me helping people with the skills that I’ve had for a decade, helping people take care of their lives, take control of their wellbeing, take control of their mental and their physical health, and it’s a blessing.

So did you step on stage as a bodybuilder?

Yes, I have many times. And I did it. I’m still doing it to this day.

Oh, wow. So talk to me a bit more about that. I’ve competed as well. I don’t look like it now. Back in 2005. Nice. I did the when was Leamington Spa Quality.

Spa UK for qualification.

And then did the British came forth nice and then stopped. All right. Yeah. I mean, for me, it was the discipline, really. Bodybuilding teaches you so much about. About discipline and routine for sure. Whether it’s timing of your meals, whether it’s it’s training, whether it’s know and thinking and figuring all, all of that stuff out. Right. And maybe the thinking back then about nutrition and stuff is very different from what we have now. You mentioned sleep earlier and I think I think sleep. Is coming to the forefront of everyone’s mind now in terms of how important it is. Absolutely. And people like Matt Walker and Andrew Huberman have brought this to brought this to the forefront, to the public, to actually.

So back.

Then, I didn’t know how important sleep was. Right. We’re told it is.

But I mean, I figured out by realising I didn’t sleep, so I was like, okay.

Maybe I should work on it.

But I mean, like from a competitive point of view, don’t get me wrong, guys, if you’re listening in, I mean, yes, I would call myself a bodybuilder, but I’ve actually I wouldn’t say I live like a complete and utter bodybuilder. My my life and the way I help people around me is teaching them how to use things which actually are relatable to day to day. If you if you try to live like a bodybuilder or a dentist, I’m sorry you’re setting yourself up for failure unless you’re a the strict maybe 0.5 to 1% of the people who can do it. I’ve used those skills of learning what I did wrong, what I’ve took from bodybuilding, from fad diets. I’ve spent the last ten years making the mistakes and learning what’s worked for me to help other people around me. But you’re you’re right in saying motivation is an excuse. My language for anyone who doesn’t like swearing, but motivation is completely utter bullshit. It lasts maybe 24 hours, 48 hours a week if you’re lucky. But discipline and routine will always prevail, as you know. I mean, like you said, you’ve come from a competitive environment yourself. I know for a fact when I’m coaching individuals, if you can build a routine which works for you and it might be what works for your self, Prav may not work for me. What works for me, We may work for some of my my male clients or my female clients. You just need to work at trying to thinking about simple, measurable steps every single day that allows you to take control of your well-being. So it might be okay. Go to the gym twice a week. That’s better than you doing nothing. Sure, You know, go to the gym three times a week, four times a week, whatever it may be, it might be. Try to not eat five takeaways a week. Have two.

Yeah, yeah. Different things for different people. Right. And. And absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so just sort of moving on from there. You start this fitness journey, you started to feel better yourself mentally, mentally, physically at work. So you left uni, you started this fitness journey. What happened to your career in dentistry?

So when I left university, I did my VTI year in the Buckinghamshire scheme and this is in 2013. So I had the glorious trip to Chicago, which is happening I think happened last weekend. And then after that I joined as an associate in Roderick in Aldershot area, realised I didn’t really enjoy mixed practice so much. I’m going to be honest with you, my sort of mindset and mentality is very.

Much do.

Your very best. And I remember at one point I think I was earning less than my nurse and I was like, okay.

I need to I.

Need to find a better way of honing my skills and making an income. So I actually transitioned into working for the civil service as a civil service dental officer.

Yeah.

Where that’s where I spent my first, I would say my first four or five years, just really honing my craft, really building my, my confidence, building my bread and butter dentistry. And whilst doing that, I did my cert in aesthetics for Restorative from the Eastman. So I use those first few years to kind of I guess it was just whilst I was building my body, I was building my dental.

Skills.

And it was great because when I’d done that PG cert, I built myself a little portfolio. I was like, Cool, okay, I feel confident now.

I look good.

I think I can talk, I can be myself. Once again. I’ve got the I feel like I’ve got the soft and the hard skills which I need to for to, to walk into private practice. And lo and behold I applied for a job I wanted in Cookham, which is an area near Marlow Redding, if you’re familiar with that area. And yeah, I got the job and that’s where it’s brought me today. I’m working as an associate in private practice.

And you’ve been there ever since.

I’ve been there now for four and a half years. So yeah, that takes me to, yeah, the last ten years of practising. So yeah, I’ve been enjoying that. Got a really nice patient list there and it’s great because interestingly the area where I work is the area where pretty much where I grew up in and you’ll see there’s probably a recurring theme, whereas I found I realised my roots was where I felt comfortable. Why not come back to what I know, what feels right and let me help the people who help bring me where I am? You know, why not give back to the people that I’ve I’ve wanted to to support all my life and help me get to the position that I am from a school point of view. I mean, I’m I’m teaching I’m treating the patients of the kids who went to my school, which is crazy. So it’s kind of a nice thing, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so what is your what is your week split up like now? So you do some dentistry. How does the fitness or coaching career work for you on the on the with your clients and stuff. So just talk me through a typical week for you.

So my typical week looks. Quite varied at the moment. So typically Mondays, Mondays, Wednesdays and Friday afternoons are dedicated solely to my online fitness coaching. So I have my 1 to 1 check ins with my clients. I have a client base who I spend time every single week making sure we go through any plans for the week, nutrition training wise to make sure that they feel in control of their lives, how they can maintain their sort of their course, and to getting into the best shape that they want to achieve, but also giving them strategies for their day to day activities, whether it’s be a tough week at work, whether it be a wedding coming up with their attending and they’re trying to drop body fat or gain muscle. So that’s what my Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays afternoons are looking like. And then Tuesdays, Thursdays or Friday mornings, it’s my dentistry. So I have my nice split between the two.

Really nice balance. We’ll talk less about the dentistry and more about the fitness to freely. I’m more intrigued about that. So a typical client, how do they find you? How do they learn about you? And then what is it that you offer? What’s the what’s the list? We talk about the patient journey in dentistry, Right? What’s your what’s your customer journey as someone who is is looking to improve themselves?

Well, first thing, I mean, in terms of how how my clients find me, it’s interesting. I spent about seven or eight years in the in the fitness industry, not coaching one person because I really wanted to make sure like anything if you’re going to if you’re going to give anyone any tools you need to make sure you know the shit inside out, you need to know that the back of your hand. So I spent those first eight years really making sure I really nailed it. And then I start people start approaching me just before lockdown, just saying, Oh, I want some fitness advice. Can you send me a diet plan, a training program? And I was like.

Well.

None of that bullshit.

Works.

Let me actually genuinely help you. And I thought, Hold on a second, Let why am I doing this if I’ve got the.

Skills.

And the people who are approaching, funnily enough, dentists, why am I not Why am I not working with the people who I understand the most? I mean, if you go, it’s what I find really interesting. I see a lot of dentists go into personal trainers or coaches who have no understanding of their profession. You wouldn’t go to a if you’re trying to learn to ski, you wouldn’t go to a canoe instructor and say, Hey, teach me how to ski, would you? You’d go to the best ski instructor and say, Hey, mate, teach me how to skate. So what? I’ve realised I can work the best with dentists because I get you. I am.

You sure?

So what happens now is they approached me on Instagram. They approached me through word of mouth. They saw my profile, they see what I do with other clients, and it’s just built very organically really now. And and that’s what I like about the business. It’s not me trying to hard sell like, Hey, come work with me, come work with me. It’s a case of if you want to take control of your well-being, I would definitely help you.

So what is the what is the patient journey then? As a as a patient, they come in, they have a consultation, you do an assessment, you write a treatment plan. Talk me through that process.

Very, very similar. So the first thing will be to jump on a call. I’ll listen to the clients what their goals are. I find out what they’re trying to achieve and how and what they’re struggling with. From there, we’d sit down and I explain to them what I do and explain my my practice principles, how I apply my theories and my practices, which I think is quite unique to compare to other coaches, because everyone says the same thing. Oh, here’s a training program, here’s a diet program, but it’s not really that tailored to them. It’s not really that bespoke to them. And I really try to step into the individual shoes. So I spend a whole week with my clients assessing them, literally everything about them from their medical history to what their goals are, to what they like training, how often they like training, what they like eating. And I start building almost this framework and you think of it like a cake. We start with the real basics. Let’s get I’ll get my clients to start eating maybe three meals a day. If they’re not even eating consistently. I get them to start tracking what calories they’re consuming currently and depending on where they’re.

At.

Depending on where that goes, I start telling my advice to them accordingly. So if you’ve got a mum who’s a busy mum returning to practice and she wants to lose her postpartum weight, I create a program which works for her. So it might be a home workout program based off the equipment she has two or three times a week for half an hour, but that would be very different to what Prav what you may approach me and say I want to work out in a gym and I want to get back into a competitive state. Okay, cool. I can do that, but it has to be tailored to you. So that’s the patient journey. It’s assess them. The setting is crucial. And then from there, week by week, I work with them on a 1 to 1 basis so they can they have any any burning questions. They can WhatsApp me through the week, but they get bespoke video feedback every single week with their training and their nutrition and explaining them what went well, what they need to tweak next week, and how we can plan to make sure we set ourselves up for success. And that’s like.

Sort of.

The mentoring process a little bit like if you had if you had a dental plan and a dental treatment plan and you’re trying to plan it with a mentor, you’d sit down with that mentor and break it down to individual steps. Okay, Your sleep was crap last week because you went to bed and you would procrastinate on your phone. So maybe off a switch off time with your phone.

Sure.

These sort of small things and you start breaking it down. It then empowers my client. Because what I’m trying to do different to other coaches is give you the tools to walk away and do the shit on your own nutrition.

I think it’s one of those things like, what’s the right diet, right? So we’ve got vegetarians, we’ve got vegans, we’ve got low carb, we’ve got intermittent fasting, we’ve got carb cycling, we’ve got the carnivore diet. Fasting. Yeah. Fasting. Yeah.

Starving. Starving.

Yeah. I’m sure much more than what. What I’ve just spat out at you now, right. Yeah. What’s the best one?

I mean, you know, that’s equally the idea. There’s no body, right answer to this question. I mean, everyone’s got their own preferences. The most important thing I would say, if anyone’s listening and they’re trying to understand how they can take away what they should do for them is is trial and error experiment, just like with dentistry. And I’m going to be boring for a second and I make it very realistic and tangible when you’re doing back to back fillings and you’re thinking, how do I how do I make this work? How do I make these teeth like these fillings sit perfectly with the right contours. You’ve got a trial and error with your matrix bands. You’re trying to get a good veneer and you don’t like the colour match. You have to try out different colours. Same thing with fitness. Try the paleo diet. Try the intermittent fasting approach. Ultimately they all.

Work.

But what is important is not the quick fix which gets you results. It’s the results that you can stick to, the process you can stick to and enjoy. Because with that, like with anything, if you’re able to do this day in, day out, with enjoyment, with predictability, you’ll get better results and more long term results than any other method. So I spoke to another dentist recently and they were saying to me, I like I love intermittent fasting. It just works for me because I love big portions of food. I love being that guy who just has a huge portion crack on. Then if it works for you, do it. Me myself. I would never do the keto diet because I love carbs.

Okay.

So you know, people will say, Oh, carbs are the devil, this is the devil. I think we’re very much here to victim blame. I think you just need to be a bit open minded and just know so long as you’re being sensible with your calorie intake, so long as you’ve got a fairly varied diet with some good nutrients in there.

That’s.

Okay. Just make sure you can stick to it and you can enjoy it and it’s suiting your goals. If that’s if those are boxes you can tick off, I think you’re on the right track.

So you say give everything a try, right? Whether it’s paleo, keto, whatever. Right. How long should you try it for? How long should you give it before you say, You know what, this isn’t for me. I’m going to move on to the next one.

I mean, to be honest, I would say you would have to give it a reasonable amount of time. I don’t think there’s a perfect amount of time, but for example, I would say maybe 4 to 6 weeks to try something out properly. You can’t you can’t try something for a week and say, screw it. I haven’t seen the changes that I want to. It’s like I have clients approached me and they’re trying to get in shape and they’ve been eating. For example, I’ve got many clients coming to me trying to drop body fat. They’ve been eating a certain way all their life. They’ve put on, let’s say, ten, 20, 30 kilos of unhealthy body mass, and they expect it to drop off after three weeks of dieting or two weeks of dieting. I’m like, Dude, it doesn’t happen like this. The results will come with repetition and patience. So you didn’t put the weight on overnight. You won’t lose the weight overnight. Likewise, with a diet, you won’t figure out whether you like it straight away. You just need to see, okay, what sort of things can I look out for? Do I feel good doing it? Are my energy levels good at work? Do I feel ratty around the house? Do I feel generally happy doing this process? Is it convenient? Because let’s be honest, the people listening to this podcast are dentists and going to necessarily want to be doing things which are time affected because we’re time poor as a profession.

So is it convenient? Is it enjoyable? Does it leave me feeling good? Okay. And then the last one, is it helping me hit my goals? And I think if you’re going to look at all of those points, a couple of them, you’re pretty you’ll feel pretty quickly. But the goal situation, like I said, you’ve got to give it time. You can’t make a rash decision. And I don’t think we should be so quickly to tarnish everyone with the same paint brush. I think we need to just be honest and patient and say, look, there’s different methods out there. What works for one person may not work for the other, but just be patient and try them out.

Yeah.

But I do say tracking calories is one thing everyone should.

Do that should track calories.

Yeah, personally I do, because it’s a simple if. Let me caveat that. If you’re struggling with either weight loss or weight gain, you clearly don’t have a good balance of your energy balance because it’s simple physiology, simple bio physics here at calories in versus calories out. If you’re struggling with weight loss, you’re probably eating too much. And if you’re struggling with weight gain, you’re probably not eating enough. So at least have a pet perspective whilst doing those things. What sort of food quantities and calories you’re consuming? And it’s not because I want people to live by an app. But it’s because I want people to improve their their knowledge of nutrition. Because when you start tracking, it’s not the process of the tracking, it’s the mindfulness that comes with it. Oh shit. That Mars bar is 250 calories. I didn’t realise that. Oh, that cocktail at Las Iguanas was 280 calories. I didn’t realise that when you’ve had five pints on a Friday night and a Domino’s the day after, you’d think, okay, I was really healthy Monday to Friday. But now on Saturday I managed to smash for 4000 calories. Now it makes sense.

Sure, it’s that awareness of what’s going in. Right. And absolutely and I guess the come on.

Mean you asked me a question, why am I here? That’s why I’m here. It’s to raise the awareness that dentists we we need to start taking care of ourselves.

And.

We we can’t pour from an empty cup. You know, we practice every single day to our patients that we need to think about longevity. But we’re working in such a highly tense environment, doing highly precise work, and we’re working long hours, sat in the most ridiculously uncomfortable position, which is terrible for our spines. And we’re expecting that we can do this for ten, 20, 30, 40 years, happy and be healthy. I think we need to think a little bit more long, a little bit more longevity. You start thinking, okay, we treatment plan for longevity with our patients, less treatment plan longevity for ourselves.

So what are the dentists out there listening? Right. We’re well aware time, poor, busy lifestyles, all the rest of it. What were the top? What? Your top five tips.

Stop looking for the quickest solution.

Well, see if you think they’re not even looking right. So. So majority of these dentists then cracking on, right? They’re not looking for a solution, right? Yeah, it’s all good. Well, they to a.

Degree, they are there. For example, when you’ve got a bad back, what do they do? Are banging on. You’re often I’ll go to my chiropractor, he’ll fix me up. But that’s just a patch up knee. That’s just a temporary filling over your problem. Start looking at the underlying issues. What about weight training? What about we’re using a saddle chair? What about wearing some loops is start opening your mind to okay, I need to look at the underlying issues.

Your five top tips. Yeah. Health and wellness. The the somebody a dentist can start implementing and executing tomorrow.

Get your weight per 25 kilos of your body weight is how much water so per per 25 kilos of your body weight should be one litre of water should be drunk. So if you’re a 50 kilo woman, drink two litres of water. So figure out how much water you need to drink and drink that from tomorrow. That’s number one.

Start hydrating.

Start hydrating to try to get ideally 7 hours a night asleep, try to get 7 hours of sleep at night to sleep.

Yeah. Water. Sleep.

Three. Move. If you haven’t moved today. Get up and move. It doesn’t have to be 10,000 steps, which, by the way, is a complete and utter arbitrary number made by some Japanese company who made a step ometer about in the in the sixties. It is a bullshit number. Just move.

Move more. Okay. Four.

Eat some protein. If you’re a vegetarian, you can eat protein. There’s so many sources out there. We’re spoilt in the UK, so eat some protein and look for that in at least two or three of your meals a day.

When you say some protein, what’s what’s the ideal amount. The the there’s.

A lot of, there’s a lot of different theories on this one, but the one which is most favoured for improving muscle tone and for strength is two grams. If you take your keep your weight in kilos and times it by two, that’s the number of grams of protein should be consuming a day. So for a 70 kilo ml 140 grams of protein a day is roughly what you should be aiming for.

Okay. Okay.

And then number five as per the NHS. Lift some weights because it’s going to do a lot more than your body pellet on bikers.

That ship is literally.

If you’re trying to if you’re trying to build a body, which is not even just looking good, but it’s going to last you, you’ve got to have muscle if you want your joints to feel healthy, if you want to have that rigidity and robustness along your your back, your neck, your spine, you’re looking for a long, happy, healthy life. I personally think weight training is the way forward.

So some kind of resistance exercise to.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you don’t have to be lifting like crazy weights. Just look to challenge yourself. If it’s lighter weights, just increase your repetitions over time. You don’t have to be lifting like a bodybuilder. I mean, the ladies think out there, they’re going to get bulky. All of the girls that who work with me end up turning up and getting stronger and looking even more feminine and even more proud of their curves. They don’t look like what they see on these Mrs. Mrs. Olympia pages. That takes like ten years, 12 years, 15 years.

Drugs, drugs and a lot of a lot of.

Growth hormone. Guys, It’s not I mean, I’ve been doing I’ve been I’ve been bodybuilding for the best part of ten years. And if I if I look the way I look today, which is I say pretty good, but without.

Drugs.

Okay, I will be really pissed off if that was simply just lifting weights and I didn’t look like a mr. Olympia. So.

Yeah.

So those are my five top tips.

Okay. And so the future for you and dentistry and the fitness career just just breaking it down to brass tacks. Right. It’s a good question. What does it look like from a financial point of view? Which which one’s more rewarding.

Financially rewarding or just rewarding?

Let’s let’s go for both of them. Let’s start with the numbers. Okay.

Let’s so let let me let me put it into context of where I see myself with dentistry and fitness going. I see myself scaling back dentistry, being honest with you, I think it’s going to become my my side hustle and my bread and butter is going to be my fitness purely from the point of view. I love this. And it.

Is.

You know, when people have a calling, I look at people like George, the dentist, I look at payment, somebody I look at Sam Jauhar, I look at these guys and I think that is their calling. You can just see the passion, the way they do their their anterior restorations. They see their full mouth rehabs. It’s beautiful. It’s it’s their bread and butter. I’ve realised dentistry is something I can do into a really good standard and I do push myself. But my bread and butter is helping individuals who are working in that field get the best out of themselves, make sure they feel healthy, they feel in shape, they feel confident, they feel sexy, they feel like they’re not going to be in a position of ill health compromised situations the next 20 years time. So, yeah, fitness is going to be hopefully the way I go and it’ll be a case of and I think in the next few months, maybe the next six months or so, I’ll be taking on another coach underneath me and scaling my business in that sense.

So are you. Are you at capacity now? Yes. And would your other coach be a dentist?

I’ve got a doctor and a dentist in mind. And it will be one female and one male.

Yeah. So you’re going to stick true to that, that value of will. We know who you are. Right. And so it’s a case of.

Like I said earlier, which would you go to see? Would you go to Andrew McLean, who’s an incredible anterior cosmetic dentist or Kailash, and an incredible veneer and implant dentists and ask him to do, I don’t know, dentures. That’s not his favourite thing. His favourite thing is clearly that you would go to what you go to the individual who knows that profession and is passionate about that profession like the back of his hand. That’s what that’s why I want people to come to see me because I get them. And I feel like when you reach down on something and you know what you’re calling is, it’s almost stupid to try to become the jack of all trades.

You mentioned dentistry by your side also in the future, right? Is that because you enjoy this more or do you believe that the financial rewards from the fitness online fitness culture is going to parallel that of dentistry for you, if not exceed it?

I mean, I’d be lying to say I’m not going to go in this blind and think I’m not going to go in this stupidly. I’ve spent the past ten years of my life upskilling, honing my career. But then I also realised that career has also given me the opportunity to work with the people that I want to work with and also do the things that I’m brilliant at. So it’s I don’t have any regret at all about making that transition. If you do it right, and I’ve got my own mentor in this in this side of the business to help me kind of push me in that right direction. It can definitely be a fruitful career, but you can’t just like with anything, especially when it comes to coaching, it’s not it’s still a volatile situation. You still need to be making sure you push yourself and making sure you’re staying on top of your your your delivery to your your clients. That’s crucial. So we’ll see. We’ll see.

And typically, how many how many clients can you work with at any one time?

It depends on, I would say, on time and quality. So for me, quality can never be something I’ll compromise ever based off my time that I have. Currently. I’m at capacity and that’s just I’m about 40 clients, so they’re all working on and sort of monthly programme memberships side of things. But as I said, I would.

Never.

Take on more than that. I can do so currently I’m enjoying doing two and a half days at dentistry. If as soon as I start to stretch myself, do I know for a fact the quality of my delivery of my my coach is going to be shit. And that’s why I pride myself on getting amazing results and I will never do that. So hence why I’m thinking about taking on another another coach. Now, if I decide to maybe drop more days, then maybe I might take on more. More coaches, more clients. Sorry.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so you wave that magic wand and you cast yourself three years into the future and you look back at us today having this conversation three years ago, what must have happened for you to be personally and professionally happy with your progress.

Personally and professionally happy with my progress? That’s a brilliant question.

I would say about three years from now.

I would say definitely that I’ve had made no regrets in my decision making process. So just I took a big, huge leap of faith starting this process. And I think so long as I just keep on following my heart and just doing whatever I can to make sure it works and giving it my everything, I think I’ll be happy irrespective of the financial thing.

I’m not.

Yes, I would like to be able to earn a good living, but I’m not financially orientated or driven guy and I’m not hitting sitting there waiting for my Bentley to arrive tomorrow, Rolls Royce or Rolls Royce or the likes of or a Rolex or something like that. So long as I can do what I enjoy, so long as I can look back and say, Look, I can put food on the table, I can do what I enjoy and go to bed at night thinking, you know what? I get to go to my job tomorrow. That’s exciting for me. I mean, beforehand I put a lot of pressure on dentistry. I didn’t find that I was enjoying it as much. But now that dentistry is becoming my, let’s just say, less pressurised to earn and I’m enjoying working, I’m enjoying getting going into dentistry a lot more now. I’m enjoying waking up to do my clients and I think I’ve always heard this concept of You should love what you do.

Sure.

And for the last for the last two or three years, because I’m putting myself more and more into.

Coaching.

I’m actually starting to feel that that feeling now. So if I can keep on loving what I’m doing, I’m going to be a happy guy.

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, there’s one question I didn’t ask you about the coaching training, bloodwork. Do you recommend that to your clients? Is that something you talk to them about?

Advisor Depends on the if I don’t work with any assisted athletes and by that guys I mean anyone taking enhancement or professional enhancing. But generally speaking, yeah.

Yeah.

But generally speaking, if there are signs and symptoms to me to say like an individual looks like they’re possibly looking like a bit more fatigued and a bit more lethargic than they normally should do, then I might encourage them to get some blood tests to look for anaemia, etc. But I mean it’s very much case by case dependent. There has been situations where I said there’s something like we might be looking at. I’ve got a couple of clients who’ve approached me because they’re pre-diabetic. So we do keep an eye on their blood glucose levels. And likewise we’ve got some individuals who are type one diabetic. So we do look at these sort of things, but it does vary depending on the client. It wouldn’t be like everyone needs to come to me with blood work and I just look at their panels and look at it like that sense.

Okay, It’s something it’s something I do quarterly and it’s something I’ve heard a lot of people talk about that, you know, you could look like a picture of health and your blood could be like custard. Do you know what I mean? And certainly for me, just monitoring my bloods, whether it’s looking at sort of diabetes markers such as HBA one C and blood glucose levels and things like that, and even your hormone panels and stuff. Right. You know, for me, anyway, it does kind of keep me on track. And I know what I’m looking to achieve in three months time or whatever. Right. I’m just wondering from a from a fitness and wellness point of view, the reason I’m mentioning this is a client got in touch with me just only last week who focuses on that area of wellness. He’s a private GP and he centres all of his care around, around the blood work. So just wanted to know what your take on that is and personally for yourself. Do you do you monitor yours?

I’ve done it only as I said, I’ve done it from the point of view. When I felt myself run down about a year and a half ago when I felt my body just wasn’t quite right. And I did look into it and I ended up finding that I had some vitamin D deficiencies and folic acid deficiency. So I ended up going on to supplementation for that. But generally speaking, it’s not. I’d be lying to say to you that it’s something that I look at routinely and regularly. Sure. I don’t you know, if you if we look at it, if we look at it from the point of view, the more information we have about anybody, the more educated decisions we can make about them. Absolutely. But it’s also one of those things when you have an individual who’s approaching you and like, for example, with my assessment week, you’re taking an individual individual who might be at one point slamming in a couple of beers that weekend, a Domino’s and a kebab. Then you start telling them about doing a blood work. They’re thinking, What the hell am I getting myself into? You got you’re going from extreme from, you know, 100 0 to 100. I think it would be a case of walking, walking the walk first, going into a bit of a canter, then a jog, a then a running pace and say, okay, cool. Now we can fine tune and look at things like that. So if there are concerning features, I would definitely look at them. If there’s something which doesn’t seem quite right in.

Your.

Signs, symptoms, physiology, then again, yeah, we’ll definitely encourage that. But you’ve got to I think you’ve got to be mindful not to jump from extremes, but I think that’s what we do as dentists. We look for very extreme.

Measures, very much so onto supplements. You mentioned supplementation just earlier on. Is there anything do you recommend like multi-vitamin greens and any sort of cocktail of sort of staples like D three, K two or what? What’s your what’s your goal to sort of thing that you’d advise your patient, your patients?

So it would be a combination of some simple, simple stuff. So if you’re not consuming oily fish twice a week and Mega three, six, nine. So I’d say that’s my one staple. If you’re a vegetarian, there are vegan options out there as well and vegetarian options. Then I would say number two would be a multi vitamin A box standard, multi vitamins, perfectly fine vitamin D, k, B, D, three, K two. Yeah, absolutely. Given the fact that we live in a temperate climate, we sit inside all day long, we’re not getting vitamin D, let’s be really, really honest. So vitamin D, I think is really essential. And then if you are training with weights, creating. Those are my four, I would say three essential vitamins, one essential sports supplement. Everything else is a bonus.

Protein powders.

If you want it. I mean, I look at it again. Dentists are time poor and looking for a quick fix. I look it as a huge advantage. It’s tasty. They’re convenient. They’re actually the most cost effective way of getting protein into your system. So I personally do advise them, but it’s not something you need. It’s a it’s a nice half rather than a must have. But yeah, absolutely. They can be so useful. You can make puddings out of them, you can make a shake, you can make smoothies, you can make ice creams, you could do whatever you want. They’re so versatile. And compared to all the crap that we had, you know, the best part of 15 years ago, the start, the stuff which tasted like chalk and like literally mix like clumps to now these amazing flavours and clear isolates and stuff like that. You’re spoilt for choice nowadays.

To be honest, I can’t remember what the brand that I used many, many years ago. But you’re right, it just tasted gritty. Right. And yeah, I.

Remember this one’s called.

Nutrisse Nutrisse for that’s what it, that’s the one I remember. Yeah.

It was so cost effective. But I swear to God my, I remember I’ll tell you a funny anecdote very quickly, because I’m sure you don’t want to hear too much about this, but it was 2013, the year I qualified. I remember I was taking this at the time and I fell asleep in our staff room at lunch. And I remember I woke up and everyone looked at me like the most disgusting look on their face. And they were like, I think someone just died and it just came out of you. And I realised this The protein.

And protein wasn’t good. Yeah, I remember that nutri. It used to come in five kilogram tops. Yeah. And it was cheap as chips. I think it was about 40 quid or something like that. Yes.

Five kilos for 40 quid. There you go. That says everything doesn’t it.

Absolutely. Okay, moving on. We like to ask about sort of what life you got. You’ve got kids or married. Married kids. Okay.

Maybe if I’m blessed in the future.

Okay, so let’s. Let’s take ourselves to the future. Please. And imagine at the end of your long, long life that it’s your last day on the planet of God, okay? And you have to give your closest ones and three pieces of wisdom. What would they be? Geez.

Okay. I would say live with no regret because you have no idea what tomorrow brings. And. Probably from the point of view, having lost a few ones, a few loved ones quite unexpectedly, like in COVID. I would say definitely. You just don’t know, like whether it be arguments, whether it be whether you feel like you could have done a job better, push yourself down, a career that you wanted to try. Like I’m trying with my fitness, like to take that leap, you know, don’t don’t sit on the what if because honestly, it’s it’s frightening. I mean, I just had a WhatsApp just before I spoke to you guys on this podcast, and my mum’s got a colleague of hers who unfortunately her partner passed away very unexpectedly a year.

Ago and she’s.

Herself, the colleague, has just passed away this evening. She just had straightforward cancer. And I’m not trying to say this to, to, to frighten anyone, but it’s the case of you just don’t know. I mean, I had two patients last in the last two weeks have just come to me and they’ve just told me that their wives or partners have just had stage four cancer. And you think, Jesus Christ, that’s six months. Things can just change. So live with no regret would be number one and number two would be, I guess it’s in line with what I do. Don’t be afraid to be selfish and put yourself first because. I realised with myself and I’m when I help try to help other people is that you can’t pour from an empty cup like we said at the beginning. Put the oxygen mask on. All right, Let yourself breathe. Then help the other person. Because it’s it’s so easy to to give, give, give everybody else. Give our patients 100%. But then there’ll be a point where you snap because you can’t keep going the way you’re going. Just take a moment whether it be reading a book. Go for exercise. Go for a walk. Eat Better. Start taking care of you. I think that’s. It’s really why I do what I do. It’s just helping other people just start valuing themselves.

Sure. Three, Probably.

You are a product of your environment. So just choose your environment carefully. That’s that’s. I mean.

I wonder what you mean by that is are the people, is it, is it the place? Everything is.

Everything though. Like if you’re unhappy where you work, change your workplace. If you’re if you’re unhappy with your relationship with your loved one. Talk to them like ultimately we have a choice. I don’t believe in anything happens without our decision making process. I believe I have a choice to be happy. I have a choice to be sad if I’m unhappy with how If I’m unhappy with how this podcast is going, I could tell you like, dude, cancer. This this is this.

Is bullshit, but you.

Have a choice so you can change your environment any which way. If you if you’re in a situation where you feel perhaps, maybe I feel overwhelmed, what can you do in that moment to change the script and change the environment around you? Yeah, that’s what I feel strongly about.

And payments question. Okay. He didn’t party. Okay. Three guests, dead or alive? Who would they be? My. Oc.

Jonny Wilkinson. An amazing rugby player and an idol of.

Mine.

Dynamo. The magician.

Interesting. Yeah. And David Goggins. Yeah.

He’s an absolute legend. And I would say Dynamo, because if you don’t know much about his backstory, you need to read about him. This guy is, like, incredibly inspiring. He was probably the most introverted people I’ve ever come across through reading his autobiography, going watching his shows, watching his TV programs like he’s so unbelievably introverted, but has built this persona and built this confidence. And what I love is how he’s mastered his craft to kind of build himself up. And it’s something how I can relate to. Like he he he used to get bullied a lot as a kid, and then he just did his he did his his magic tricks and learnt from his grandpa. And now look at this guy. He’s just you just look at him. You’re like, in awe, which is absolutely insane.

I didn’t know that. I did not know that. Yeah, man.

Tony Wilkinson For the point of being I mean, everyone looks at him as the most incredible, like number ten we had in the English jersey, but I would say more So again, his autobiography, like, is blown me away. Like, you wouldn’t realise this guy is probably the most anxious person I’ve ever heard of.

Ever.

He was so self deprecating, like he was so hard on himself. But I would love to sit down with him and just kind of have a chat because I think he’s just got an unbelievable mindset to kind of just persevere and have that grit and determination. But also he also knows what it is to battle within himself. And I think it be really good. It’s good to kind of hear his take on that because you could see he’s he’s struggled with it throughout his whole career, right way to the very end, to be honest. But he also just just just blew me away, just how incredibly professional he was. So that was one of the things I liked about him. And then the last one, David Goggins I mean, was there a lot to say? Yeah, was there a lot to say? I’m actually in the middle of his second book right now, and I just every page, I’m enthralled. He is just again, it’s interesting, all those three guys I’ve realised when I was just thinking about it, they all have the same sort of like backstory. They’re all kind of like, I don’t know, the, the, the underdog who just come come their own.

Way.

From the guy who was working as a pest control guy to suddenly then become a Navy SEAL man, to do ultramarathons, to doing like the world’s record for pull ups. The guy is an absolute beast but it’s again, it’s down to mindset. He just shows you how you can tap into your brain. And I believe that’s what we all need to kind of do, is just get get into that brain and just know that we have so much more to give.

I’ve not picked up a second book yet, but I remember listening to the audio of his, so I read the first book. Right. But then when you when you listen to the audio, he adds colour to the book. He talks.

It’s insane. I listen to it as well. It’s insane. It’s insane.

And I just you know what the one thing is, you know, back in the day you’d sit down and watch one of the Rocky movies for a bit of motivation, right? But you listen to Goggins and you listen to his story and all the rest of it. My God, it fires you up.

I’ve not. I’ve not met one person who I’ve not recommended that book who hasn’t come out feeling empowered. And it’s not about fitness. It’s really not about fitness. It’s just the the principle that you can, if you want to. That’s the bit. It’s like when you feel like he describes it. I remember he says, like when you’re when you’re on a.

Run.

And you know, you hit that wall. He’s like, you’re only 44 steps there. You’ve got 60, you’ve got you’ve got another 60 to go. And some of the things he’s.

Done physically.

They make no sense. No, But then the power of the mind, you know, and if anyone believes anything, the power of the mind is unbelievable. I think you can really tap into that and make a whole world of a difference for yourself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely Brilliant. Well, listen, Roland, it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. I really do hope our guests just take some messages away today and implement at least a couple of those five tips. I think if they can go away with if they want to learn about you, where do they go? Yeah.

They to jump on Instagram that DOT to underscore RV fitness and then drop me a follow, if you like, advice, which is bullshit free, realistic and applicable to your everyday life. And it will help you in all aspects, whether it be.

Just.

Taking a moment to not be so hard on yourself. Eat better, sleep better, hydrate better, and actually enjoy it.

Drop me a funny cool. Excellent. Well, thank you for your time and absolute pleasure, buddy Berry.

Thank you so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

And I think for me, the biggest thing that recently has happened is I’ve, you know, as I’m quite proud to say, that the business has become successful, but it’s become successful to kind of rein everyone in into that ideology has been really hard. And I’ve not yet found a way to kind of, you know, people talk about culture. It’s how to get that culture to filter through the team, the team that’s been a really hard.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Hey guys. A bit of a different episode today.

When Prav went to the Neo dental conference about a month ago or so, he even managed it as well as doing everything else he was doing at that conference. He even managed to do three episodes of the Dental Leaders podcast. Two of them have been full length and then they’ve come out already. But he did a third one, which is a 20 minute episode, which is brilliant. He covered all the main parts of the podcast in 20 minutes with Manish Bose, who’s a friend of mine who actually was practising in the same practice as him, a very, very talented surgeon. And that podcast, because it’s only 20 minutes, we’re going to put that in this episode. But I’ve put another quick ten minute piece in, which is me talking to the managing director and marketing director of FMC about the North of England dentistry show, which is coming up on Friday the 11th of March in Manchester at the MCC. Enjoy it. It would be great to see loads of you there. It’s always so strange when people come up to me and say, Hey, they listen to the podcast and it’s a funny, funny feeling when people tell me about my life, You know, if you’ve listened to hours and hours of this, you tend to know quite a lot about me. A funny feeling when someone knows you so well and you’re just meeting them. But I do love meeting you guys. So do come to that event and, you know, feel a community building up. So thanks a lot for that. Enjoy the episode.

Thanks. It’s no secret that we’re going to be launching the next version of the Enlightened system in March, and it’s been a long time coming. We’re super excited about it. We’re getting superb results from the testing dentists, and we’ve decided to launch it across several different events starting in March. So it will be at the dentistry show in May in Birmingham. We’ll be at the showcase in London at the end of March, but we’re going to kick it all off at the Fmc’s North of England Dentistry show in Manchester at the convention centre there on March 11th. People are a bit surprised sometimes when I tell them Enlightened’s biggest users are from the north, but they always have been. People in the north aren’t. Aren’t that surprised, But whether it was Caliph Solanki practice in Manchester, Michael Oliver’s amazing place in Sunderland, the North’s always been a hotbed for whitening, and it just seems fitting to start there. Fmc have been such a massive support to the profession. I remember the first thing I did when we started Enlightened was was have a meeting with Ken. And since then, you know, whatever they’ve done, whether it’s education print, whether it’s awards, they’ve always been really, really just supportive, cutting edge, innovative. And this is no different. So it’s my great pleasure to welcome Craig Welling, managing director of FMC. Can’t believe I’m saying that. And Laurie Glover and Laurie Glover, who’s marketing head of marketing, to tell us more about the show. So, guys, lovely to have you on. Thanks so much for having us.

I’m really excited to be here. Yeah, No, great to be on.

Yeah. Let’s let’s start with some headline numbers. How many delegates are you expecting? How many stages is it? How many speakers, that sort of thing. Let’s kick off with that, Laurie. Let’s start with the delegates.

That’s the exciting. What everyone always wants to hear about the most is how many how many dentists are we going to have through the doors? And we’re lining up to be absolutely record breaking. This year, we’re expecting over 1000 dentists through the doors itself come to the show and sign ups are just so far ahead of where we expect them to be. We’ve been pleasantly surprised by the demand for these in-person events in the North this year.

Would you put it down to.

Well, I think there’s nothing quite the same as an in-person event. You know, the ability to get there, get hands on with stuff, to see new product launches, to to hear lectures and speakers meet with exhibitors. There’s just no way to replicate that at that kind of scale outside of a Dental event. And we are the largest show in the north. That’s why we we get the numbers we do.

Craig Were you were you not worried, Craig were you not worried that this year was going to be a difficult year to to sell, you know, to to attract people to these sort of things? Yeah.

And I think, you know, there’s always challenges and worries around. You know, whoever’s running in. But, you know, I think our model has always been and obviously a really kind introduction that you did. But, you know, we want to give practical information to to the mass. And, you know, there’s a big gap in the north. The BDA used to run there. And obviously they they then partnered with the dentistry show Got to Birmingham. So there hasn’t been a show consistently in the North for many years and we launched our regional events programme. You know, we’ve got some really good traction and year one last year in the North just took off. You know, we had a great turnout, huge support from the trade and obviously we we put the stake in the ground and you know, we got some great speakers coming along, some, you know, superb support from the industry. And yeah, as Laurie said, you know, we’re ahead of the game and we’re super excited.

Because how many exhibitors are coming?

Oh, I think 136 off the top of my head, isn’t it, Craig? Just over the top of your head.

Geez.

They keep swelling up even now, you know, usually shows people have got it all locked in, but we’re still getting people enquiring and saying, Hey, can we come along? Because they’ve seen, you know, the demand for it and they want to be on board and be part of that.

And what about the stages? What are they called?

So we’ve got a number of different lecture theatres. So we’ve, we’ve um, we’ve got a clinical theatre which is obviously practical clinical advice, which I think you’re speaking at Payman, you know, guiding people on, on their writing journey. Then we’ve got the avant garde theatre. So obviously Robbie and Milad, you know, they’ve got a phenomenal business. And then Jin and Kish at the Smile Academy. They’ve got their own theatre. Paul Tipton’s run in a theatre of restorative. And then we have a core theatre that covers all of the the main topics. We have a facial aesthetics hub, a business hub. So we’re really trying to appeal to to everybody as much as possible and bring some of the biggest names from across the sector.

Yeah. Think you missed a couple there, Craig We’ve obviously got the business hub as well, powered by my dentist, the Nursing and Oral Health Theatre as well, and the Oscar Restorative Theatre as well by by Troika.

And so let’s go through some of the speakers. I’m looking at the list now. So for me the standout ones are Payman. Langroudi Payman For sure, for sure. But Riaz You are brilliant. Joanne They are like a lot unless you’ve got on. What’s he speaking on? Do you know implants or is it business? He’s normally business. He’s a.

Business.

He’s doing on this case. He’s talking about wine replacing, restoring dental implants. It was an implants intro lecture in the implant digital theatre.

And so what’s the overall experience going to be? You turn up, it feels a bit like an exhibition, right? Because that’s it’s that mic which is a big hall and then lectures start and everyone starts going into the lectures. How long is each lecture? Are they different lengths or are they all the same?

Yeah, they aren’t. They are different lengths. And we have, you know, we obviously people are there to enjoy a good day out as well as listen to the speeches that are going on. So they don’t want to be sat down for too long. Payman So the lectures tend to last between 20 to 30 minutes. There are few of the kind of core recommended CPD topics that last a little bit longer up to an hour. But it’s kind of like, you know, we keep it short and sweet because you get a chance to fit more in that way throughout your day.

So guys, when was when was the time where you like how many months ago or is it years ago? Did you start planning this particular event? Like run me through the process.

So I think just I mean, taking it back a couple of steps is yeah, you know, and as I’ve just said to you, we’ve always been about supplying. Practical content that people can absorb and take back to practice. And that’s when we launched the regional event program back in 2020. And then obviously COVID come along. And I think that shattered most event businesses around the world. And so so we really pick things back up in 2021. We had a really successful event in March last year and then we’ve we’ve as soon as that finished, we’re straight back onto the planning for this year. So. You know, 12 months in the pipeline. I think Liana and her team have done a phenomenal job. You know, and I just think we’re trying to be a little bit different. You know, we have things like bubbles and beers. So, you know, early afternoon, the champagne comes out, beers are poured. We try to make it more of a social atmosphere. We don’t want it to be too serious. You know, people want to learn, engage with clients, but also to have fun. It’s not about just, you know, white collar walking around. We want it to be an enjoyable experience.

Yeah. And for the North, we see so many teams come along as well. So it’s not just the dentist. They bring their their team with them and it’s a great chance for a team bonding day out. And I think when you talk about the after party this year, I’m talking about things like no indifferent. We have got the north of England after party happening and Payman I hear someone’s got a VIP area kind of set up for that.

Is that right? Is that right? I didn’t know about that. Um, so the party, what runs straight after the end of the course?

Right straight after the end of the show. So from 4 to 6 afterwards we’ve got one of the gin is DJing from small Canning’s been providing Izzy. Izzy Yeah. Some welcome drinks from team FMC and yeah, you’ve got a little area of ropes outfit for you and the crew.

Yeah. Didn’t want to bring that up, but now that you brought it up. Yeah.

So guys, this regional sort of did you do some research that said, oh, people don’t want to travel down to London or Birmingham and that’s why you’re putting it up there. Is that how it happened?

Yeah. So I think.

If you look at the the latest stats that we run there, was it and don’t quote me on this, I’ll have to get the exact number, but it was around 87% of practices said that they wouldn’t want to travel more than 50 miles. And then we looked at, you know, areas where there was a high concentration of practices and labs where there’s a higher demand. And that’s where we decided to launch the events.

And your business model is free to the dentist, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

And so it’s just us paying.

Absolutely. Again. Payman. Yeah. So of course it’s got to be free for dentists. You know, we’ve been down in the draw, brings them along, gives you a great chance to meet, you know, more dentists you can ever hope to do by travelling around.

Think think what Payman missed out there is. He said last show that he made over £1 million.

Did he. Yeah that’s right. That’s right.

Hey that that’s a good one right there. Surely for that. Put my.

Villa bought my villa in in Cornwall.

But yeah. No it’s really great to have you on and we really appreciate your support and, you know, ultimately looking forward to a great event.

Yeah, I’m sure it will be, man. I’m sure it will be. You guys tend to take care of the all the bits around it very well. All the AV and the food and all that tends to be give me some, some, some idea of numbers on your end. How many of your people are going up.

So we got our event team. So obviously Leon has got got her team that’s made up of there’s eight people in events now and then we’ve got our content team, so they’ll be there covering lots of the new product launches and then we can use that content to distribute online through the print media. Obviously, the sales team will be there. I’m sure they’ll be on your stand with a clipboard as as the door opens. So yeah, I mean, it’s a big day for us, you know, obviously it’s our our cup final, as we call it. It’s our it’s the biggest show that we run. And we’re, um. Yeah, yeah, I’m.

It’s been events are cool man. You never get, you never get sick of events I find. Yeah I do. Once a month right. With the mini smile makeover and just round the corner, by the way, at the Edwardian hotel. And you never get sick of it because it’s different people every time and different for me, different things that go wrong every time. I’ll be quite I’ll be quite interested. I’m going to grab both of you halfway through the day and have another chat with you, but I’d be quite interested to see what went wrong this time. Right. Because you can never. It’s like a wedding or something, isn’t it? You can never really predict.

Yeah, there’s always something. But, I mean, what’s so good about our team is that we’re so good now at taking that in our stride and getting a solution in place is, you know, pragmatic but keeps exhibitors happy, attendees happy. And we just make sure we go above and beyond to resolve them as quickly as possible. A bit of whack a mole when they pop up.

Just a funny one. Remember the first year that we run London Pay and I think you was there and there’s a whole issue with like the health and safety offer signing things off and everyone was in a panic and I think the registration was due to open at half eight, got to half eight and we’d still not had sign off from the health and safety officer because an exhibitor had left the box on the floor. But everyone thought that we did it on purpose because there was a huge queue of people outside waiting to get in, which which made for some great content to show how busy the show was. Um, but yeah, hopefully it runs smoothly this time.

I’d love to sit with.

You guys and go through all the things that have gone wrong with all of the events.

It’ll it’ll be a whole.

Education for me because we’ve never I’ve never run a big event like this before. Yeah, guys, I’m really looking forward to it. Are you guys going the night before?

Yes. We’ll be there to sell out the day before. Absolutely. On Thursday. No, Friday. So we’ll be up there Friday, Friday.

Friday. Sorry. Yeah, Friday. Yeah. And where are you staying?

Uh, we’re at, you know, the.

The place. You guys are too high up. You’re too high up to know these little details, aren’t you?

Payman the day before. Okay.

And are you leaving?

Are you leaving on the Saturday night or are you staying till Sunday morning?

I think some of the team are staying over. I’m some of us are head back at my I’ve not seen my kids for about three weeks, so I need to get back.

All right, man. It’ll be. It’ll be. It’ll be good to catch up with you guys, man. I’ll definitely see you hopefully on on the date. And, you know, we’ll have a great time. Thanks. Thanks a lot for doing this.

I really appreciate the invite and coming on and the support and yeah, look forward to seeing you in next Saturday.

See you in Manchester.

Cool, guys, thanks a lot.

So, Manish, just introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about your practice, what you do at your practice, who works there? Right.

So my name is Manish Bose. I’m a specialist periodontist. I own a practice. I’ve owned a practice for ten years this year, actually. So it was a it was an existing dental implant practice. If you know anything about dental implants. There was a guy called Ashok Rosetti and his partner at the time, a guy called Roy Sennett and Roy Sennett was from South Africa. So Roy Sennett owned a practice. The practice I bought and Ashok had a practice at the road. So I bought Roy’s practice. It wasn’t the most exciting thing I’ve ever done in my life. Buying business is not my forte. I don’t come from a business background. I bought the practice ten years ago. I can pretty much say it was a yeah, not the greatest experience in my life, but anyway, it is what it is. But I created a referral practice mainly by knocking on people’s doors. He had an implant only practice where he used to get referrals for implants. But I never captured that market because he decided to stay on there. So I established a periodontal referral business, started off doing half a day every two weeks, and I’m now doing four days, five days a week, booked in advance, got another periodontist there. We have a specialist orthodontist, we have a specialist oral surgeon, we have a specialist endodontist and we’re looking to expand.

So if we just take a step back and go back to that journey of when you bought the practice, you’ve had ten years of owning the practice. Now, if you could do that all over again, what would you tell your younger self and what would you change? What would you do differently?

Don’t be naive. Don’t be overly eager. I think I think the Roy saw me coming and I think I was way too eager to do a lot more due diligence. I think this was the days before CTC. So, you know, I if I was to do this all again, I’d be I’d look into the books a lot more. I’d be a bit more kind of business. Like I wasn’t business minded. I just knew that I could do something there. It was more of a gut feeling. I wouldn’t do a gut feeling thing again.

So I’m right in understanding that. You were probably at that time quite excited to become a practice owner. This opportunity came along and you just thought it felt a bit giddy maybe, and just thought, You know what, this is it. I’m going to do this without sort of I guess, you know, you can say you could have been more business minded, but how would have you been more business minded at that time?

Think, think like a lot of specialists. I was running around London and I think I was listening to one of your podcasts recently with Hatem, you know, working 14 different places. I was not too different. I was working about 12 different places, and I knew in Ealing there was an opportunity to be had because there was no one and there was not a standalone referral practice. So yeah, I was quite excited. I thought I knew I actually never wanted to be a business owner. I wanted to be an academic. Another day, another story. But you know, the practice is I live in Ealing. We literally moved into the Ealing and the reason I bought got into got introduced to Royce because I do a lot of Southern implants. So I used to know the guy who used to run Southern and their offices were in that building. So that’s how my introduction got into with, with Roy. Yeah. So I was, I was excited. Yeah, I was definitely buzzing. I thought, well, if I can, if I can concentrate in this one area, it means I’m not running around everywhere. I had really young kids at that time as well, so for me to be in Ealing was quite paramount because my wife works much harder than I do then. And she’s she’s a travel a lot. So for, for us it was a real kind of game changer that I could be located near the kids.

Close to home.

And then so if you look back over the last ten years, what were your darkest days? What would you say the, you know, the most challenging aspects of running and owning a business during that time? Was it really in the early days when you thought, what I’ve just taken on, or have there been moments in owning a business where it’s been so challenging that it’s been utter overwhelm and stress? Yeah, I.

Think I think one of the things and I always say this to younger colleagues who buy a business is when you inherit stuff, it’s one of the biggest bollocks that you can have. I mean, because their loyalties obviously are with the previous owner and that realisation from being an associate where you try to be friendly with the staff members and you’re not really that involved with their day to day things to being their boss, that transition. Is huge for me. Definitely the first year of becoming a boss. Not becoming it’s not it wasn’t very natural, but inheriting people that, you know, the realisation that as a boss you’re quite alone and you’re not really like that much. And you know, you then realise that most of the time they’re being nice to you in front of your face and in a really awkward situation. They’ll be horrible to you in front of your face as well. So that was definitely one aspect of it. And I think for me, the biggest thing that recently happened is I’ve, you know, as I’m quite proud to say, that the business has become successful, but it’s become successful to kind of rein everyone in into that ideology has been really hard. And I’ve not yet found a way to kind of, you know, people talk about culture. It’s how to get that culture to filter through the team. The team that’s been a really hard thing is.

That I was going to ask another question Is that what you meant by ideology? Like having this sort of culture that comes from that’s driven from the top yourself and then and then having the team understand what that culture is and then live and breathe that through to your patients.

Yeah. And I think I think the team so I’ve got my staff who get it because then again I’m quite lucky. I’ve got members of staff who have been with me for years. I’ve got Lady a ten years, eight years, seven years. And they get they’ve seen the business evolve. They see that it’s all about the patient journey. And what I what I what’s the challenge is when I’ve got associates. Some of you are quite young and some who are older and set in their ways, who don’t quite see how things work. And, you know, that’s the thing about people, dentists popping in and out of practices, they don’t have any ownership. And it’s hard. And I get it because I was in that position. I get what they’re. But at the same time, we all have to sing from the same hymn sheet. And for me, trying to establish that as being hard, that’s probably my current problem.

Okay. And if you to look over your career, we speak to a lot of sort of guests when we’re interviewing them and talk about clinical mistakes. I think I think it’s really important the concept of black box thinking where, you know, in the airline industry, everyone’s very open about, well, you have to be open, right? The black box records it. And so anything that happens in the airline industry is shared across industry for flight safety. Right. And that’s why that’s why it’s so safe to fly in medicine and healthcare. We have this habit of covering up our mistakes. And just in the guess, in the interest of transparency, we spoke to a lot of dentists, some who pulled the wrong tooth out or perforated. Have you ever had any moments during your career where you’ve made a clinical mistake that you could share?

I’ve got several. There’s a couple that I won’t talk about, but there’s one in particular that I’m more than happy to because it’s quite funny. Yeah. And the one yeah, this one I’ll talk about. So about 10 or 12 years ago I did an implant sinus graft, did an immediate sinus graft, put the implants in as well at the same time. Sorry, sinus graph with an immediate implant. Let the patient be. The patient came back. Oh, sorry. Got a small detail When I did the sinus graft as a tooth next door, there was a little bit of pus coming out of it from the root tip of the root. And I said, I’ll be fine. Kind of kind of cleaned it antibiotics. But obviously the infection got into the sinus graft and it didn’t work. So the patient comes back in after four months, 4 or 5 months. I went to do a second stage surgery to expose the implant and I put a screwdriver and the implant moved and I said, okay, implant moves not worked, okay. And I said to the patient, Look, hasn’t worked. I need to get you back in and the patient is okay. And I said, I’ll get you back in and next time you come in, I’ll be all prepped. I’ll get a surgical setup and said, I’ll come back in a week. And you know, all it happened was it just moved slightly, nothing else. Okay. Patient comes back after a week. Okay. So, you know, all gowned up. Open it up. There’s no implant. Okay, so there’s me. And he’s like, Yeah, I’ve had this, like, you know, congestion issue, okay? And so I’ve done max backs, okay.

Before I did my training, So okay, let me have a look. So then I decided to pull a flap up. I did a little window and the loops on and started looking. Can’t see a bloody thing, anything. Right. And there was crap coming out. There was past all kinds of shit coming out of there, bias particles. And I’m like, Oh my God. And this guy is not the easiest. This is an up in Highgate loads of old money, you know, I’m start to shit myself a little bit. Okay. So then was me a pair of tweezers looking for this thing? Couldn’t find a freaking thing anyway. Anyway, so at which point the guy could clearly tell that I was very, very nervous. And this was, like I said, ten, 12 years. So about 6 or 7 years into me being a specialist, me doing all these kind of things. And so I rang my old boss up and he, you know, my old boss was a guy called Nasser, who’s, again, another day, another story. But he wasn’t in town. He gave me a telephone number for one of his mates, which was who was a proper old school English maths surgeon and said, What? What old boy? Don’t worry, send him over to me. So I sent the patient across to him and he saved my butt basically on various levels. Okay. So firstly, he was able to locate the implant, which was underneath the orbit. Okay. Wow. It was stuck. Were you fishing.

Around in the wrong place?

I was. I was fishing around, but he’d gone all the way back there. Okay. Because I didn’t, I wasn’t, you know, firstly it was underneath orbit. Secondly, he thankfully booked him into the local private hospital, took the implant out overnight stay. I paid for everything, obviously, and paid for, you know, six, seven grand. Just paid it all to him. Sure. What he then did, which was amazing because I did three implants on this guy. This story goes on for a bit longer, right? Sure. The three implants of this guy, two of them were. One of them didn’t. Okay. And the guy’s obviously like, well, you know, and he’s got he’s gone to the old boy surgeons and you know. Yeah yeah Manish has done this and you know you know I think he’s fucked up basically. And Max my guy was on my side. I said, No, no, no. Let me get you a second opinion. So he got me. He got an a second opinion, one of his buddies. And for the life of me, can’t remember his name, but quite a really well-established western Harley Street boy who did an examination and just said, Look, mate, it’s, you know, shit happens. Two of them worked. One of them didn’t, you know, End of story.

Okay. Anyway, it was great, okay? And I was like, lucky break, you know, And the surgeon only charged me 4 or £500, this thing. And the whole thing is, eight years later, this guy’s in in Devon. And you remember that film? Is it yesterday with the Indian lad who starts singing Beatles songs? Yes. Yeah. Do you remember? Yeah. So a mate of mine who’s another dentist who moves, moves out to Devon. He’s watched the film, right. And he’s gone with some mates of his. Okay. And he’s come out and they’re talking about because I think that that guy had an implant Dental implant. And this guy this the one of the mates who was with said yeah. Had an implant with this guy up in Highgate, yada yada yada. And he’s like, And it was me all these years. He still got he’s got still got a little beef with me. But he’s all right and he’s he’s good. And, you know, as we get to know each other, I’ll tell you the other story, which is even funnier for sure. Maybe off camera. Off camera, off camera. But yeah, that was it was the other one was scary but funny at the end.

It’s nice you had those people to just sort of cover your backside, right. And people to sort of help you out in that in that situation, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You I think I’d like to think there are still people like that out there. But yeah.

Have you ever helped anyone out in that similar maybe not the same situation, but more junior dentists or whatever where they’ve got themselves and landed themselves in a bit of trouble And you’ve been able to.

I think one of the things you probably realise, you know, having been in the industry, it’s not easy to run a or not. It’s not easy to have a referral practice and a lot of that is off the back of helping colleagues in different ways. Whether I take an impression or whether a referring colleague may have done something that has got themselves into a bit of trouble. You know, I will, I will. I have worked out for them in whatever way just to kind of eliminate any possible complications that might occur. But yeah, so am I’m very wary of these things. And because someone’s helped me if I’ve.

Been a recipient.

And yeah.

And also it’s good for business if to be honest because you know, it creates goodwill if anything else, and that’s to have a like a referral practice in zone 2 or 3 in central London. It ain’t easy. So you have to do these things. And I do it. I do it with a kind heart as well because, you know, like I said, I’ve been lucky enough that people helped me out.

Done the same for you on these interviews. We usually usually ask a question. So this is going to be sort of we’ll feature this on Dental Leaders It was your last day on the planet. Yeah. What were the what would be the three pieces of advice that you would leave your loved ones with?

Okay. Uh. Okay. Love life. Always learn. Always, always. I’m a was with someone on Saturday local school ball. And we’ve talked about happiness. And his his concept of happiness was to take his dog out. His 56 likes to take his dog out for a walk. And I was like, okay, fair enough. Simple. Simple. You know? But for me, I’m 50 turn 50 this year. I’m perpetually trying to learn new things. I’m learning how to play the guitar. You know, I’m going to take the boys. I’ve got two boys. I’m going to take them to play golf. So it’s that perpetual love of life.

Just on the guitar bit. Are you a musical guy or is it.

Just so okay, not I wish I was because I have this thing that I always tell people that if I was ever reborn. I’d be reborn as Tito Puente, who was a very famous Colombian Hispanic bongo player. And my connection to all of this is actually quite pertinent because we talk about Manchester. So 91, 94, those years my best buddies were two Cheetham Hill boys, Irfan and Ifti, who were who are two Pakistani lads from Cheetham Hill, which in those days were called the Murder Mile, as you know, and they were into Latin music and. Right. So we used to go out, they were into Latin music and hardcore techno, but they were their musical geniuses. Irfan still plays out in Manchester, so I still see him every now and then. So that’s my musical heritage. I mean, apart from all the stuff my dad used to play as Hindi music or whatever, but that was so. So my musical kind of aspirations are definitely developed from those days.

So we’ve got love, life, learn, always.

Be learning, always.

Be learning love life always be learning. Yeah be be be nice to people. Be kind of respectful. I think that that.

Fantasy dinner, you can invite three people, dead or alive. Who would they be?

Uh.

Well, Tito Puente Hills.

Thought, Yeah, this one gonna play? Yeah.

Who else would I invite? Um. It wouldn’t be anything Dental so disappoint, say, Nelson Mandela. I think I’d love to hear how he spent his time in jail, but. Amor Bose. Do you know he is? Bose sound system. He was an Indian physicist who went to MIT, and I just loved to know his journey from going from India, being an engineer to go to MIT, and how he and I don’t know what his involvement in the whole boat. I mean, he must be part of shareholder or something. Sure. So I’d be intrigued to know his business journey. Yeah, actually, I think being a businessman that has made me interested in business, that’s one thing. So how people create things is quite interesting for me and create businesses because the one thing I realised is it’s not easy. It’s not easy running a business for sure. But one of the things that I and I think I spoke to you about is all on Fort say it’s all well and good having an idea or being good at it, but you need a funnel for those things to come in. Of course it’s how to create those funnels I find quite interesting as well. So Amira Bose would be an example that someone is obviously intelligent, crack the code correct. And you need and that’s that. Yeah. That would be that would be awesome.

This is Dental Leaders the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we’ve had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it.

If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it, too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening.

Thanks.

And don’t forget our six star rating.

It was a video that I saw where a chap he puts ping pong balls into a jar and then he puts gravel around the ping pong balls and he’s asking the students, is the jar full? And they keep saying, Yes it is. And then after the gravel he puts sand in and then he pulls two cans of beer into it goes, is it form? I go yes. And it goes. The ping pong balls represent your personal success. And he goes, you know, he goes, The gravel is stuff like your business, your sand are the bits that don’t matter. Because if you put your gravel or sand in first, you’re not going to have room for your personal matters. And I think one of the students puts his hands up and goes, But sir, what what are the two beers about? And he goes, You should always make time to have a couple of beers with your friends. So I think I think people transition. And I think when I first qualified, it was trying to my version of success was to be financially secure, own a business. You know, as I’ve got older, you know, I don’t think money interests me anymore.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav.

Selling cake gives me great pleasure to welcome Dr. Saqib Ali onto the podcast. Saqib is the principal of Sherwood Dental in Hall Green in Birmingham. What can only be described as a behemoth of a practice. 11 surgeries, one of the biggest NHS contracts in the area, and massive private element as well. Actually 70% private apex predator Invisalign. Actually, I should use the right word tonight. What is it? Apex. What I give Tony.

It’s an apex Invisalign provider. So that’s the top 1% in Europe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I met you Saqib on many small makeover, and we still talk about it in our team. We still talk about that. That MSN when you were there because you just made it so much fun for everyone when you came with your wife, Farrah. And it was it was just a party from beginning to end because you were there. And now that you told me you’ve been on these other courses, I’m going to go ask the others. Was it the same for them as well? It’s a massive pleasure to have you, buddy.

Thank you so much for having me, Payman. It’s a great pleasure to be invited to talk on such an amazing podcast. I feel like a fraud. I think that said to you earlier that some of the guys you interview are heads of industry real leaders. So I feel like a slight fraudster being invited onto your podcast because, you know, it’s just little me in Birmingham doing my own little thing. So but going back to your course, it was one of the best courses that I’ve ever been on. It was so much fun. The social aspect of it was just, you know, out of this world, the people that were on the course, it was such a good vibe. I’ve been on many courses, and I must admit yours just head and shoulders was at the top of my list.

It it was. I think it was you who you who made it fun.

You guys were just amazing. It was just the energy in the room was just phenomenal. The people were just amazing. I couldn’t recommend it highly enough.

Brilliant. Second man, listen up. We start these things usually with Back Story. Where were you born? Yeah. Why did you become a dentist? What kind of household did you grow up in? That sort of thing?

Well, I’ve got a typical Asian immigrant story. My father was a factory worker. And my mother was a seamstress for co-op, so she used had a small cottage industry where a man would drop off shirts to have collars sewn onto them, and she’d distribute them with the other ladies in the area. And so these collars onto the shirts and my dad would go to Braco, which was a factory, and he’d work sort of almost double shifts just to get some money. And so we all live there are five of us children. I was the youngest, second youngest, and we all lived in a two up to down terraced house. So we were very poor. Growing up. Didn’t have a lot at all. I think as time went on, my father started to have problems with his back. And my mother, who was a very clever woman, she’s the main driving force behind all of my brothers and sisters, attaining educations, quite a high level. So my brothers and sisters, all five of us, either doctors or dentists, and she was a teacher back home in Pakistan. And so she was very driven to educate her children. It was the reserve of the rich in Pakistan and India that only wealthy could afford to educate their children. And so she really pushed to give her credit. She also pushed very hard for my sisters to become educated where most of the men within our community and local vicinity would say, well, no, you don’t send your daughters to university or to go on to higher education. You get them married off fairly young. So she thought, I need to get my husband out of this backbreaking factory work.

And so she saw a shop that was for sale, but it was an off licence. And we’re from a muslim background. But she took the plunge and said, Right, let’s buy this corner shop. We’re going to run this shop that still did some factory work in the background. Still went working at the factory, but didn’t do as many hours as she was doing before. So we moved to an area called Radford. So we lived in Foals, which is a big Asian area in Coventry, and then we moved to this off licence. And that off licence facilitated Mum and Dad paying for us to go on to higher education and studying. And so I had a really happy childhood. You know, we were there up until the age of eight, you know, we’d go out and play on the streets to ten, 11:00 at night. You know, we were running the shop. So, you know, it’s the first time I learnt to work as part of a team, you know, Mum, Dad would come back with a car full of cash and carry stuff and you’d have your brothers and sisters and you’d literally learn to, you know, get the stuff in and you’d have to pull it in the right place ready for it to be put on the shelves. So, you know, at the age of seven or eight, you know, I’d been lifting quite heavy groceries and packages out of the car. So it’s quite at the age of seven or eight was very strong for my age. And in fact, I probably hit puberty at eight. You know, I had a beard and one eyebrow, everything. And part of that was that there was any kind of motivation.

If you weren’t hoping you’d get a slap and it would be, hurry up, you need to pull your weight and get this stuff in. And so, you know, it was a brilliant childhood. I look back and that was the fondest part of my childhood, I would imagine, and we’d go out with play in the streets and, you know, some of the older lads would pair us up and we’d literally do bare knuckle boxing. He’d pair us up the two older kids, Rabbani and Liaquat, and they’d say, Right, you’re fighting him, you’re fighting him. And we’d be fighting each other. And you’d come in and you dare not say anything to your mum and dad because if you said came in crying or upset, you’d get clipped around the ear, you know. But we were tough kids, but we had lots of fun. There was lots of love in our house, even though we didn’t have much. But part of it was also that, you know, Mum and Dad were very strict, very strict. So an example is we were having an extension being done and I jumped off a pile of wood and had a six inch nail go through my foot and there was blood coming out of my foot and I was too scared to tell my mum and dad and I came in and sat down and there’s a pool of blood around my foot. My mother noticed that and instant reaction was clipped me around the ear saying, What have you been doing? And in the end we ended up going to hospital and having a tetanus injection. So. But yeah, very fond memories of my childhood.

Do you feel like you knew you were underprivileged in any way or not? Because as a child you had nothing to compare it with when you’re just there?

No, I think I was oblivious to it. I think I was completely oblivious because we were happy. We didn’t know anything different. So, you know, it was, you know, a warm and loving household. And I think at the age of eight, my mother decided to move us again because a post office and General stores had come for sale. And my mother said, Oh, you know, I really like this. And my father is very risk adverse. You’re saying, No, no, we’re fine with the shop, you know. And mother thought, Well, my children are getting older and we’re Muslim. We shouldn’t really be profiteering from the sale of alcohol. And as the children get older, I don’t want them around alcohol. And so she thought this was a good move. And at the age of eight, we moved to a place called Tall Hill in Coventry. And unfortunately, Tall Hill is a quite socioeconomically deprived area and we moved to this post office in general stores, but we were the first Asian family that had moved to that area and distinctly even to this day. I remember I was eight years old. First night there, all of the shop windows got smashed. There was a group of lads outside the shop shouting because we lived above and behind the shop shouting, Pakis, go home. And my dad had his tyres slashed on his car. So as an eight year old boy, that was very. Traumatic for me because I’d come from, you know, a background where I could go out and play till late at night with my friends.

Everyone knew everyone to know. My mom wouldn’t let us out the house. She can’t go out. And then we were sent also to a Church of England school. So we were the first Asian kids to go to this Church of England school. And on the first day, my brother and I both got suspended because someone had sworn at my brother, made some racial remark and attacked him. And I’d walked into the playground and we were strong lads because we’d been moving, you know, boxes of packs of 20 2kg sugar packs, lifting them. So we were strong and we used to fight a lot when we were younger with the lads. So we were like bare knuckle championship boxers at the age of eight we could handle ourselves, so we sort of battered this kid quite badly. There’s blood everywhere. First day we got suspended, got sent home. And so that was a baptism of fire in that we went from a very stable, loving environment where we felt secure. And then we’d ended up in a school where the children didn’t like us because we were different. We couldn’t go out in the evening, couldn’t play outside the house, and we had this pub opposite the shop, so you’d get drunk people coming into the shop that were very aggressive. And so my childhood stopped at eight, you know, and I look back at it and you are so frightened.

To what tactic? What what tactic did you use?

I think part of it was that, you know, you just internalised that you didn’t want to show weakness. You don’t want to show your sisters that you’re frightened or upset. And as we got older, you know, we started to fit into the community because my father would be in place of issuing gyros to people. So people got snow. My dad people got to know my mum. And part of it, too, I started to work in the shop. I’d be on the till mopping, topping up, going to the cash and carrier before I went to school. And I’d have to put all the groceries out for my mum and dad. People got to know us, so we sort of settled into the community and that sort of aggression and violence settled down. I think, you know, Mum and Dad at that point, my brothers and sisters who were older had all been sent to a very good school in Coventry called Bad Lake. It was a private school. And I remember I didn’t pass the 11 plus. I was the thicker in the family. They were all super bright kids. I think my sister had a scholarship. My other sister had a half scholarship. My brother had got in, passed the 11 plus of flying colours. I think I just failed it or just missed out. And so I was sent to a local comprehensive for about a week. And then my mother said, right.

One evening she goes, You’re coming with me. And I said, Where are we going? She’s going to stop asking questions. You’re coming with me. And she took me to ballet to meet the headmaster there. And this chap called Mr. Barker. Really, really nice guy Wharton, and just said that. Don’t say anything. She sat there and she said to Mr. Barker, she goes, I can’t drop my three kids at your school and him at another school on the other side of the city at the same time. And she goes, Look at him, you know. And she goes, It’s stupid, stupid. Look, I don’t look this, but he’s looking at me. And she goes, I know he didn’t pass the exam, but I brought you a little gift. And would you just please consider whether you can get him in? You know, I don’t mind paying full fees for all the kids. Just please let him in so he can be with his brothers and sisters. And I remember Mr. Barker who took out this bottle of whisky, 20 year old bottle of whisky, and Mr. Barker took the whisky, put it in his top drawer, and said, Mrs. Ali, send him to school on Monday. And that’s how I got into it. So, you know, I hadn’t passed anything. And that’s how I got into bad luck. And again, it may have been a mistake because I was always just bottom of the class.

I couldn’t keep up with these kids. They were really bright. They were very clever. And I remember I felt bad because my dad and mum and dad would work really hard to send us there. And I remember one of the parents evenings, and I think part of it, you know, people meet me and say, I’ve got a great sense of humour and I’m a bit of a comedian. And I think part of that stemmed from fact. I was trying to hide the difficulty I was having academically, so it’d be a bit of a joker, you know, and. I remember one parent’s evening, the teacher, my form tutor, Mr. Long, who just hated my Latin tutor and form tutor. And he didn’t like me because always messing around. Sat me down and he’d invite my mum in and big parents in there about 1520 desks in the hall. All the teachers and the parents were there and they were inviting parents up in pairs to talk to them. Mr. Long sits down with my mum, who’d come in and she goes, Oh, your son is more interested in making people laugh than he is studying. He’s a bit of a joker. At which point my mum glared at me. Just Joker. You’re a joker. And then she stood up, took her slipper off and started to beat me.

And right there in front of the teacher.

Yeah, the whole sign. All parents teacher, turn around going, What the hell is going on? Mr. Long had to physically restrain my mother, pull her off me, and then I ran. The next day I went to school. I was so embarrassed. And Mr. Long after that, he was so nice to me because I think he thought I came from an abused home. And he was saying, Sir, are you okay? Is there anything I can do? And it sort of switched. And at that point I sort of knuckled down a bit and I was just worried my mom would batter me again in front of everyone. So I just knuckled down, studied past my GCSEs. I got okay grades, and then I went on to do my A-levels. But again, I was slightly dyslexic. And the other thing I was very poor compared to the other kids. I remember my dad had a 20 year old Volvo estate with rusty wheel arches roof rack that we’d use for the cash and carry. And also Dad dropped me down the road. Drop me down the road, Don’t drop me outside the school because everyone had really nice cars and know it all stopped me at the door saying, No, sir, you need to be proud of who you are. And yeah, drop us at the door in it. And everyone had very nice suits next. Everyone had next suits. And I remember I had a tuxedo blazer. I couldn’t afford a proper suit, so I used to wear a tuxedo blazer with silk lapels. But the thing is, no one would take the mickey because I play a lot rugby. And I was quite sort of tough, mentally tough. And, you know, my reaction was just to punch people if they took the mickey. I just had a short fuse. And I think partly that was perhaps some of the aggression I’d been exposed to as a younger child moving to where we’d moved to.

I’m interested in a few things in what you’ve said there. Number one, your mum seems like a real entrepreneur, like pure bred entrepreneur type.

Oh sheesh. She would have.

Fully. Do you think you got elders crying? You got that from her as well?

Definitely. Definitely. You know, working, you know, I think for a.

Muslim woman in the seventies or whenever that was here to do the things that you’re saying quite, quite, quite, quite unusual, right. Oh, quite.

Unusual. Phenomenal woman, Phenomenal woman. You know, the stuff that she should should be the mother is only about four foot two and should be wearing a shivakumar who’s driving a Volvo estate that was just packed to the rafters, plus the roof rack full of shop stuff. You’ve been to the cash and carry, you know, and we’d be sat in the back with your face pressed against the back window because the car was full of so much stuff, you know, no seat belts, none of that, you know, And she could barely see over the steering wheel of this car and she’d drive it, you know, to the centre of town. You know, there are lots of flyovers in Coventry and she’d just get it still is a very remarkable shop woman. She’s had a couple of strokes now, but she’s still a sharp still. Now she’ll say to me, Saqib, grow your hands, my mum, but she will grow it on one side. Come over and say, Mum, I’m not going to do that and you need to lose some weight. And you know, you sing, Mum, I’m a married man, I’ve got children, you know, Stop telling me off. In our corner and she’ll spend the first half hour. You never call just telling me off. She still does it now, you know. But even if you don’t, you know.

You know, the sort of the the stick and carrot sort of approach to parenting. And I speak to quite a lot of Asian guys on this show and the people of our generation, mine and yours, it seems like it was all stick and no carrot.

Big stick and a just as well about a slipper. Yeah, but that’s on paper.

That sounds like quite a harsh upbringing, but nonetheless, no one ever thinks back and says I was abused or you know, that’s just not in the vocabulary. Is that not is it is it that there was it came the slipper came with a bunch of love Is that the.

Yeah I think there was some in there somewhere but my brother went to Leicester University, studied medicine, so did my two older sisters and they did a course or a module on physical abuse and signs of physical abuse and harm and this, that and the other. And I remember my brother came home and said to my dad, Dad, I think you used to hit us too much when we were kids. It was abuse. And my dad dad was drinking a cup of tea and he stopped and he looked across and I was sitting there. He says, Son, I wish my dad beat me twice as much as I ever beat you. If I could be a doctor today, you know? And I thought, Go on, Dad. Yeah, as one. You can’t argue with that. So But yeah, I think it was sort of at school. I really struggled academically. I was quite good at rugby, So I remember I got into the school team and then I played for Coventry under 18 and I got sent to Warwick County trials as well. But I remember Mum and Dad never came to watch. Not once did they come to watch me, whereas I, you know, my daughter the other day I booked off the day to good Afternoon to go and watch play netball and she was the reserve, she was standing on the sidelines but I was there every match she has hockey, netball.

I go to it because I know my mum and dad never came and they were busy, they were working, they were paying for those school fees. And so, you know, there’s a debt to them that I cry when I pay my school’s school fees and I’ve only got two kids, you know, And I think, well, they had four kids at that time at a private school, you know, on the salary of a postmaster and a greengrocers shop. So we didn’t have holidays, We didn’t go to the cinema, we didn’t have takeaways. You know, the first time I actually went to a cinema was when I went to university. The first time I ate in a restaurant was when I went to university. And I remember, you know, I was, you know, I’d be the sort of guy that would be going, Can you warm up my gazpacho soup? It’s cold. You know, I’d be the guy that ordered fish in and there was a fish knife, and I didn’t know how to use the fish knife to take the bones out of the fish. It was it was just a very.

Very feel it. Did you then feel it? I mean, let’s let’s go into the the sort of the strengths and weaknesses of of that upbringing, right. Where let’s say you guys didn’t have as much money as your as your peers. Your peers tends to be sort of the thing we measure it on, isn’t it? So there are definite there are definite advantages to that. Yeah. That where you know, I was very aware maybe it’s a cliche you value money more or whatever. Well, you.

Know.

But then, but then, but.

Then is there anything that.

Anything that you sort of left over.

In what sense?

As in as okay, we know like being brought up like that. Yeah. You value you value money, you value the nice things you have in your life and so forth. Yeah, but do you feel like that there was there was also it was a weakness as well. Now, coming from that background, do you wish you’d come from a different background or what aspects of it not advantages. What aspects of it cause a weakness now? Anything.

I think it’s not. A weakness now, I think. It’s a strength because I think you end up being sensible with money so far. My wife came to, came from a very different background, talked to me. She both her parents were teachers. Her mother went to university in this country. And so she grew up in an environment where she had holidays and she could do all of these nice things. And, you know, her parents were very well educated. And so she moved in different circles to what I did. So it’s only when FA and I got married, you know, for example, we went on a honeymoon. I’d never been on a boat until I married four and we went on honeymoon together and she couldn’t catch her breath. And she goes, Have you ever been to the beach before? And I went, Well, no, I haven’t. I’ve never been to the beach and I’ve never been on a boat. And she goes, Well, you might feel a bit sick. And it was great because we got on this boat and went to look at some dolphins, and I was like a kid in a candy store. I’d never done anything like this before. I was chatting to the captain, the passengers. I was trying to touch the dolphins far, far. It was just violently sick for the entire journey. She was pregnant at the time as well, but she was just very, very unwell. Yeah, I think it was ten months into our marriage.

We hadn’t gone anywhere on holiday and she kept saying, Let’s go on honeymoon. You’ve not taken me on honeymoon. And my waste of money could be at work earning. You know, these are things you can do later, you know. And I think Farrugia said to me, If you don’t take me on honeymoon, I’m going to leave you. You’re just going. You have to take me somewhere nice. And and I was scared of flying. I hadn’t been on a plane. I’d been on a plane once prior to that. And I remember she booked a flight to St Lucia. That’s where we went on our honeymoon. And for 9 hours I just clung on to the seat in front of me, you know, just frozen with fear. And I got off the plane and I just remember kissing the ground. I literally knelt down. I couldn’t understand how something so big could go in the air and not crash or, you know, And yeah, so I think it taught me to value the money I earn. And it also taught me to offer value for money to patients I treat. I don’t even if it’s £50 or £100 patient spending with me or 15 or £20,000, I value the £50,050 just as much as the 15 or 20. And the people get the same level of attention, love and care, regardless of what they spend with me. So I think there was a positive that came from that poverty that I experienced.

Yeah, I get that. But what was the negative? So, I mean, my point is far it didn’t have that poverty or your kids don’t have that poverty. Yeah. So what is it that your kids do have that you don’t.

I don’t necessarily think there was a negative aspect because that was life. You know, I can’t change what happened at that time. I can’t change the wealth that we had or what we experienced. But I think it shaped me. I think I always look at things or try to look at things from a positive viewpoint. You know, I don’t think there’s a negative. I think perhaps if there was one negative, you know, I only learnt to relax much later on in life. I’d always work hard, you know, to hard. Yeah. And, but I think that’s a positive to have that grit and determination. I don’t see it as a negative necessarily.

We’re going to move on. We’re going to move on. We’re going to move on to your to your university journey. But before we do that, how did it feel when you saw Rishi Sunak I know he’s not Muslim, but an Asian becoming prime minister. And then you’ve got people like Sadiq Khan, you’ve got people like I know Sajid Javid. You know the difference between that situation and the situation where your dad had his tyres sliced or, you know, windows broken. Did you did you feel it? Did you think, Wow.

I think what was interesting at that time I was chatting to Farah. His brother is a councillor in Leicester. And I remember chatting to him and a few other guys who knows when Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak were competing for the post of Prime Minister. One of the guys I remember, we were sitting, chatting and he said, They’re not going to hand the chai wallah the keys to ten Downing Street.

Yeah, I didn’t think I would.

Be taken aback by that statement. I thought, okay. And then ultimately Liz Truss came in, even though I think Rishi Sunak was a stronger candidate on paper with his background and the things that he’d done throughout COVID. But Liz Truss spectacularly failed and Rishi Sunak came in. So I think when he did come in, I think the sort of. It was nice to see an Asian chap in charge, but I think ultimately, you know, you had President Obama already had almost beaten to the punch in America. So someone from an ethnic minority running a country is great to see. But I think ultimately, you know, his legacy will be based on what he actually delivers as opposed to the colour of his skin.

Of course, of course that, of course that. But, you know, I think you’ve got to remember America is very different place to the UK. I don’t think the Conservatives would be up to it, to tell you the truth myself. And they didn’t, as you say, they didn’t vote him in. It was kind of a boot. But, you know, I just I’m interested in the idea of someone who watched what happened to your family under those circumstances and then to watch in Asia, you know, did you feel that whether or not you support him or his politics or anything? Did you feel a sort of sentiment of achievement? I felt pride about it.

Well, I must admit I was, you know, pleased that he got in. And it’s nice to see an Asian chap, you know, that at the pinnacle. But even then, it’s a job that nobody wanted. So, so so ultimately, it’s a very strange it’s a very it’s almost a poison chalice. Who would want the job in their right mind in with the current state of the economy and, you know, after what happened with this trust. So ultimately, it’ll be interesting if he stays in power and moving forward. You know, he’s challenged by somebody else later down the road. But we’ll see. We’ll see. But yeah, So.

Tell me about tell me about university. Tell me about your college. You said you went to guys.

Yeah. Yeah. So? So I think when I did my A-levels, I actually failed them. I got I didn’t get the grades, get into dental school, and then I think my career master at the time had said that you won’t make it into dentistry, you’re not bright enough to do it. And I ended up going to retake college in Toll Hill. That was up the road from my mom shop and I did my economics retake at one College Hill College, and then there was Heroine College next door, which was a college for people with disabilities. So they’d run A-level courses alongside. They had one person that had a disability within the class. And so I was doing my A-level retakes and erm the lady in the class that had the disability had polio as a child, she was a mature student and halfway through the course she wanted to give up, she didn’t want to do it anymore. And our tutor Trevor at the time said, look guys, if she leaves the course is going to shut down. So from that day on, like we were there buying her cakes at lunchtime, bringing a cup of tea, Can I carry your bag for you? And she, she, she stayed. Thankfully she stayed and we all passed around. But I went from a very posh private school to this retail college where basically anyone that failed their A-levels or dropped out, they’d get sent to this school. And there are a lot of Asian kids that their parents would drop them off. The girls would come out wearing traditional kameez, they’d go into the toilets, get changed into mini skirts and lippy, and they’d go out to go to the pub opposite, get hammered, come back and they’d be sobering up on the lawn.

And I remember when we did my economics A-level, they were kicking a football off the window constantly, and I remember putting my hand up saying, You need to tell the people marking these papers. This is the environment in which we were taking exam papers because this isn’t fair. They’re smashing a football repeatedly for the best part of half an hour, and they knew we were doing an exam. It was that sort of place. But I just wanted to get out there. I tried to pass my A-levels and so I worked really and I think I got a D in an E in my economics and biology, and then I got straight A’s six months later. So and I am getting my results with my dad and he was really pissed off. I said, Dad, I got two A’s. And he goes, Well, you’ve gone to a college where I’ve not had to pay anything yet. I spent thousands on your education and you came out with a D and a NI. What have you got to be happy about? And I think that’s something that even now I say to my dad, I joke with him now and say, Dad, you never tell me you’re proud of me or you’re happy about what I’ve achieved. And he goes, You’ll get big headed. You don’t need me to tell you that.

But sometimes you do. I’ve seen this pattern. I’ve seen this pattern as well with with the parent will brag about you when you’re not around. But not. Not to your face.

Right? Never. Never. I think to this day, my dad, dad, I think I did an Instagram video with him once saying, Dad, I’ve got one of the biggest practice in Birmingham, and you’ve never told me you’re proud of me. And he didn’t say what that was yet.

So do you now do you overcompensate now with your own kids and tell them you’re proud of them all the time, every day, that sort of thing.

Oh, yeah. My kids will, you know, they’ll get two out of ten on the spelling test, and I’ll go. Well done, son, for trying. That’s awesome. And in my head, I’m thinking I’d get nine out of ten, and it would be, Well, what did so-and-so son get? You know? And why didn’t you get the same, you know, as him? And if you’re thinking you can’t win for love nor money, you know. But I think, you know, I think when I got my grades, I was so happy because my friends a year prior to me had all gone off to university and I felt like I’d been left behind. And so and I thought, great, I get to start my life. And then I was offered a place to do medicine at Leicester and with my brothers and sisters, because the dean knew my brothers and sisters quite well. And he said, Well, we’re offering unconditional place to do medicine. And I turned it down because I’d shadowed the dentist and I shadowed a GP as well. And the dentist, you know, 16, 17 chap Stuart Neville, and he used to stop at my mum’s shop to post letters, which were probably the appointment record card in a bright red Porsche 911. And I loved cars. I used to be sitting there reading car magazines, you know, so even to this day I’m mad about cars.

And, and he came into the shop one day and I was there doing my biology homework and they said, Know what you studying? I said, Biology goes, Oh, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I said, Oh, I don’t know. And he goes, Well, I go, What do you do? Because you’ve got a really nice car. And you know, I see you every day stopping to post letters because I’m a dentist, because you can work, shadow me and I’m an okay, well, I remember I went to shadow him and this guy, like he looked like Robert Redford. He was tanned, very handsome man. And he was wearing a Rolex. You surrounded by the most beautiful women I’d ever seen. His nurses and, you know, and six year old school kid. That’s very aspirational. And that stuck with me. The GP drove a battered golf. He looked miserable. He’s wearing the tweed jacket. He wasn’t surrounded by beautiful women. He didn’t have a tan. And and I thought, I want to be like this dentist. This guy is, you know, a legend. He looked like Hercules to me. I thought, Wow, you know, I’d love to be so, so, so. So I said, Right, I’m doing dentistry. And my mum cried and cried. In Pakistan, the dentist are the people that fix your shoes at railway stations.

They’re the guys that do your teeth. How am I going to tell my relatives in Pakistan? My son’s a cobbler? I say, Mom, no, it’s a better paid job. No, no, no. I don’t want you going to London. It’s too far. This, that and the other. And so reluctantly, she let me go to London and I got to guys and I was my mum was very strict growing up. I wasn’t allowed to go to parties and, you know, girls weren’t allowed to call the house. You know, she was just very, very controlling, you know, And at university, it’s the same thing. She managed to get my telephone number in the halls of residence, so she’d call me in the evening, 9:00. She called me at 930, 10:00 to check I was in. So and then I’d come back to my room. I could have gone to the toilet. Oh, your mum called. She said you need to call her back straight away. So I’d have to go downstairs to the ground floor. Mum, what’s the matter? Nothing. I’d just like to hear your voice. That’s fine. And you’d call again half an hour later. So even though it was 100 miles away, I was still grounded. I couldn’t get away. And then I remember I moved out and I wouldn’t give her the telephone landline number of place I moved into, so she’d stopped calling me.

But again, it was just her. She had very great difficulty letting go and just trusting me to go off and, you know, and rightfully so. I must admit I went mental when I got to university. I couldn’t handle the freedom. You know, I was out partying. I think I failed my first year, had to do retakes in my first I think second year I do retake exams. So when everyone else went on hold, they state university to redo the exams again. Third and fourth year I think I passed my final exams and then my finals. I actually failed. And again, you know, the guy like now I look at some of the graduates from guys that were in my year. They’re all amazing people. They’ve done so well. Some of them have got clinics, you know, on High Street. Some of them I qualified in 99. So it’s the year of 99 that came out, you know, So some of them, you know, are, you know, perio consultant implant dudes. You know, they’re they’re sort of rock stars in dentistry. So but they were exceptional people. And the thing psychologically show surrounded by I think they did a psychological experiment where they stuck loaded people in a room and they jumbled up some words and the people on the left had very difficult, complex words to try and put back together was the people on the right had much easier words, and then they gave them the same test afterwards, a different test.

But both sides had the same questions, and the first group that had the really complex words did quite badly in the second test. And I think psychologically, when you’re in an environment where you’re not top of the class and you’re at the bottom constantly, it starts to impact on your esteem. You almost don’t try as hard as you can. But I remember when I did my A-level retakes, I was top of the class and I worked even harder to maintain that level of academic success. So I think, you know, the finals were difficult for me and I failed on something really daft. I passed all of my exams except a case presentation. No one’s ever fail the case presentation at Guy’s and my patient. I’ve done some anterior composite work on his teeth and some gum gardening, some period work, and I’ve done a crown forward, and the morning of the exam, his grandson had hit him in the face with the rattle, knocking off my composites, and then he pitched up to the exam. If he hadn’t had turned up, the photos were lovely, I think I would have passed. But when he turned up, you know, they said, Well, these are broken. And then it was oh, it also included no VD.

There was some VD work. I changed the VD and the guy that was our external examiner was a guy called Prof. Wolf. He was an expert on occlusal vertical dimension. And it was confusing in that when, when I go into to clinic, one consultant would say, Well, you need to have a formative approach and then another consultant, you go on a week later and the next consultant will say, Well, no, you need to pop open the bite and allow some over eruption. And so there were sort of conflicting views and I sort of had got quite. Fuse. I didn’t quite know what I was doing, and rightfully so. They failed me. So I had to retake, I think, three of my subjects or something. But then my peers, some of my peers qualified and were the house officers on clinic. So I was having to go to some of my colleagues to get my work signed off. And some of them were, you know, really kind and considerate about it. Like I had a good friend, Bhavesh Patel. He’s still a friend of mine. Now there’s a guy called Steve Elias, and there was a huge call, Mark Phillips, that, you know, I was broken, I failed my finals. All my friends had gone off. They were earning money. I think I’d split up with my girlfriend aswell and, you know, it was like my world had just ended.

Yeah, but ultimately that that sort of stress and pressure that I felt actually made me a stronger person, you know, when I look back at it. Subsequently, when I’ve come across adversity or difficult times, I look back at that time and that time it was the end of my world. I just felt so broken at that time. But I look back at that time now almost as a reference point that it was such a catastrophic event to me that anything now very rarely does anything shake or bother me. And it made me stronger. It made me much stronger. And now I can look back at it and laugh about it. But at the time, I was very, very I was mentally very fragile at that time. But it also put a rocket, you know, up my bum to say, Right, I need to qualify and I need to prove myself. And, you know, it pushed me to go as soon as I qualified, very soon after my foundation. Yes. Six months after I set up my first practice as a squat. And I think I was the first person in my year to set up a practice, even though I’d qualified six months after all of them. So, yeah, it was a difficult time. That was a very difficult time.

How long did it take you or are you still at it? How long did it take you to prove yourself?

I think in all honesty. It was a long time. Long time. Because I think we grow into our skin. You know, I found personally I’ve probably grown into my skin probably in the last five or ten years, so probably since I’ve got married and had a family. I think prior to that I went to a very interesting lecture by Raj Ratan once and a really, really clever guy, and he talked about people that people have academic, financial and personal success or professional success, and there’s a trade off that you can financially be doing very well in your practice, you know, But the trade-off might be you don’t spend time with your family so personally you’re not very successful or you might be devoted to academia, but you’re not going to be financially very well off and personally again, you might fail, you know, and I think part of that plagiarising that slightly, I think if you when you go through life, I think, for example, I see a lot of young dentists and they’re desperate to be financially successful. So they come out the traps and they want to earn money, They want the flash car, they want the nice house, they want, you know, to buy a practice. And then often what happens is if they’re married personally, they start failing. So, you know, lots of guys, there’s some really famous dentists know that I’ve come across and I’ve met they’re not married or they’ve ended up divorced, but they’ve got an amazing practice.

You know, I’ve met guys that, you know, written papers, but they’ve got autism, severe autism. When you put them in front of a patient, they can’t communicate with the patient properly, you know? But often the sort of people that are personally successful, they’re not very often celebrated. You don’t necessarily see a happy family man with his kids. And I think there was a very interesting psychological it was a video that I saw where a chap, he puts ping pong balls into a jar and then he puts gravel around the ping pong balls and he’s asking the students, is the jar full? And they keep saying, Yes it is. And then after the gravel he puts sand in and then he pulls two cans of beer into it goes, Is it me. Yes. And he goes, The ping pong balls represent your personal success. And he goes, you know, he goes, The gravel is stuff like your business, your sand are the bits that don’t matter. If you put your gravel or sand in first, you’re not going to have room for your personal matters. And I think one of the students puts his hands up and goes, But sir, what what are the two beers about? And he goes, You should always make time to have a couple of beers with your friends. So I think I think people transition. And I think when I first qualified, it was trying to my version of success was to be financially secure, own a business.

You know, as I’ve got older, you know, I don’t think money interests me anymore. I’m more interested in personal success that do I get to see my daughter playing netball? Do I get to spend time with my son? You know, do I get to take my wife out to dinner? So. So the money is nice, but it’s secondary. So I think I’ve transitioned more towards personal, you know, And so I think professionally I’m relatively successful. You know, we’ve got a very good clinic, we’ve got some great dentists, some great patients, I’ve got a great team around me and so I can take that off. But I think, you know, I’ve transitioned from being financially successful, professionally successful to financially successful. And now I’m trying to concentrate on my personal success now, which is to look after my own health and maybe start going to the gym, try and stop smoking, you know, and spending more time with my parents who are getting older and my family and cultivating friendships, which is something I didn’t really do, you know, when I was younger, because my mum would be saying, Oh, you don’t need friends, your family or your friends, which I don’t think is true. You need your friends. And I think it’s important you seek to cultivate those relationships early on in life.

I think, you know, the getting to places, getting success, whichever way you define it, does end. Having an element of sacrifice in it. And I think what you’re discussing now is that you sometimes reject your sacrifices or your what you call success. I get that, you know, being that you’re the fourth child, four or five is all right.

I’m the fourth of five children. So after me, my parents had my sister about eight years later. And I think my mother had been told she couldn’t have any more children. And so my little sister, well, she was an accident, basically, which if you like.

The idea she was. But she was. Have you heard the idea? I’ve heard this thing, but like a billionaires or or really like super crazy, successful types of people often are fourth and fifth children. Because what happens is, you know, how we script our kids. So number one comes along and you say, Oh, she clever, clever kid, clever called you label clever on that kid. And then the kid, the positive feedback loop happens, right? So the kid sees, well, that worked more cleverness, read the book, whatever gets the pleasure pleasure of that. Number two comes along and you say, Oh, I don’t know. Sporty kicks a ball. Positive feedback. Number three comes in and say, all right, whatever it is funny. And then it ends up with number four and five. They’ve got to be super innovative to stand out. Because all the other things are taken and because they’ve got to be super innovative to stand out that that that internalises them into them. And then at work and in their careers, they’re super innovative. And, you know, sometimes I see you standing on that sofa with your Instagram doing something totally mad, Man is totally crazy. And I think about how successful that practice is, right? That, you know, some people who had a practice of that size and scale and it would be a very serious tight ship operation. And yet yours looks like a bundle of laughs all the time. Do you feel like you’ve carved you’ve carved you’ve carved a niche, carved your own personal niche? Because, you know, forgive me for saying, but you’re not your average sort of 45 year old Muslim guy, just not.

I think part of it, it goes back to maybe it’s this sort of comedic. Need. I dislike making people laugh and I think it stemmed from being a kid where in order to try and fit in with everyone else, they’d all go out and they were allowed to go out together. It’s just, you know, just a bit crazy and a bit cray cray and but, but, you know, with the practice, one of the things with our team is we have a great laugh at work. We enjoy ourselves and we do do daft and crazy things and we do Instagram videos together where we’re doing daft things, we’re jumping off sofas, we’re skidding across the floor on it, heroes and stuff. And I think part of.

It, the account, the account called what? Designer. Dentist.

Yeah, designer dentist. Design a dentist. So everyone should check that. I think I fell into that purely by accident. It wasn’t really in my wife started doing it with. She was always on her phone in the evening and I’d be sitting there, you know, candlelit dinner dressed as Papa Smurf with a spanking board ready. And she’d be ignored. She’d be on the phone Now, what are you doing? Why are you always on your phone? Oh, Instagram, Instagram. And I was thinking, well, what is this Instagram stuff? You know? And then I start started. She showed me a few things, and then I picked up a few things, but I don’t have a serious account. A lot of these Instagram accounts are very similar. They’ve got sort of photographs and, you know, they’re forced almost awkward testimonials. Yes, I came here because it was lovely, but whereas with us, we’re just a bit more relaxed. It’s sort of, you know, I don’t really care how many followers I have or how many likes I get, and I’ll post something in 5 minutes. I’ll do the work there and there, snap it, you know, we’ll do a video then, then you know, how is your journey gone, this, that and the other and bang, I’ll just post it there and then it takes me about two or 3 minutes to a post. But then I think I went to Shaz Maimane’s Instagram course and I remember sharing, showed him my Instagram account.

He says, Your Instagram account is very genuine. It doesn’t feel contrived or forced. It’s got a natural flow to it. I don’t think it will win any awards. And in a strange way, I don’t need the patients. We’ve got 52,000 patients in our practice. A lot of people come to us through personal recommendation. I don’t need to tout for business, which I’m blessed and I’m not saying that in an arrogant way, so I don’t have to take my Instagram that seriously. And I think it shows if you look at it, you know, some of my friends and colleagues, it was my birthday on Sunday, and I was amazed that, you know, when we talk about personal growth and development, when I married Father, I didn’t have many friends. I didn’t know who to invite to my wedding. And my wife was scratching their heads. How come you got no friends? I said, Well, I’ve just worked all my life, gone to work, and I’ve come home. I’ve never really gone out. I’ve gone out and partied with friends and stuff, but I’ve never cultivated deep, meaningful relationships. And over the last ten years I have done that where, you know, just for Christmas, I went away with seven of my friends and their partners and children. We stayed at a lovely luxury villa in Marrakesh and it was a lovely week together.

And, you know, their bonds and friendships that I have now that ten years ago I didn’t have. And I said to her, she said, Oh, what you want to do for your birthday? And I said, I just want to spend time with the kids and you. That’s all I want. You know, I don’t want to go to a fancy restaurant. I don’t want you to book anything. Let’s just spend time together. I had my parents join me as well, and then I had two or 300 different people messaged me to wish me happy birthday. And I sat there and I thought ten years ago, I don’t think even one person messaged me to say Happy birthday or How are you, my friend? You know, So, so. So that moved me because I thought, well, maybe I feel much more enriched and fulfilled than I did working and earn loads of money. You know, this means more to me than that did. So, you know. But yeah, but I think with the Instagram as well, because Farrah is ten years younger than I am, you know, if it wasn’t for Farrah, I don’t think I would have discovered Instagram. And it brings me much joy, makes me laugh. Some of the stuff that we do, it’s just jokes, you know, And because the whole team is involved. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it’s really good for team morale. So if you’re doing something like like we did a video where we did a video where I walk through a door, some nurses rip my gown off me and I put. Shades on. And then we start playing this rap music. And, you know, I’ve got the girls behind me waving their phones with their lights on. Seriously, if I was a patient, I think I’m not going to this guy. This guy is nuts, you know? But it’s all the girls are involved in that video. They love it because they know no one else has got their got that in their practice. They don’t necessarily have that bond. You know, my team have been with me, most of them, since the initial inception. And they won’t leave because they love it here. And, you know, people talk about, you know, inflation rates. People are talking about 10% increases in wages to beat inflation. You know, I try and look after my team as much as I can. You know, like when COVID hit, for example, you know, I. You know, topped up their wages. We had a meeting, I said, and I’ll be honest, I was frightened. I didn’t know what was going to happen. And I said, Your wages, you’re all going to get paid in full. You know, even with the furlough, I topped up their wages because I said, all this is going to die out.

But off the back of that, I remember sitting with my wife and saying, for a look, we might lose the house because I don’t know how long this is going to go on for. I remember I sold all of my cars. I had a Bentley, I had a mercedes SL 55, I had a Porsche, and I sold them and I bought a ten year old Volvo estate and I smiled. So remember, there’s a ten year old your said 100,000 miles. And I sat there and thought my dad used to drive a 20 year old Volvo estate. And your car doesn’t define who you are. I think a lot of these youngsters go, I need to buy a Porsche. I need to buy a merc or this motion, buy it on finance, or if they’ve got wealthy parents. And that sort of projection of, oh, look, I’m successful, you know, often stems from insecurity. The people that are mentally insecure, a lot of it perhaps is driven by social media where they think, do you know what? I need to show people that I’m a success, even though they finance the car to the hilt, they’re better off buying a two or three grand car that they can afford and concentrating on some of these other things, such as personal success, you know, or academic prowess, you know.

So but you’ve been there yourself. You’ve been there yourself.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? In order to get the Bentley and the Porsche and all that, you why, why did you bother with the Bentley and the Porsche and all that, If you hadn’t had an element of that in yourself.

I brought a posh I was too embarrassed to drive. It was too flash. So if you went out to a restaurant, I said, I don’t know where I’m going to park this Porsche. I’ll be worried about it over dinner. So I’ll take one of my other cars that was older and knackered. And so I remembered the Porsche in a whole year. It did 200 miles. It was just a waste of money. It just sat there. To be fair, it went up in value. So rare it went up in value. The Bentley dropped like a lead balloon. And I remember I took it to a wedding. One of our dentists got married and I said to all the grooms, Might you all sit on the back seat on the hood? And we’ll put the bride and groom in the front and set them all down. And then the hood got broken. So when I got home, I couldn’t put the hood back on and it went back into Bentley and they picked the car up and they said, Oh, the hood’s knackered, you need a new hood. It’s 28 grand. And I saw I can’t afford this car. And then the car had depreciated ten grand on top of that in literally six months. And at that point I got the hood fixed by an independent specialist. And then at that point I thought, Oh, and COVID happened. And at that point I just got shot of it. And I said to my wife, No more fancy, if I go to buy a fancy car, just stop me. I’m just not going to do it.

But then after COVID, you had the wonderful COVID bump and we all did the whole the whole profession did very well. But you did particularly well after COVID. First of all, tell me, did you do better than the next man? I mean, did you what did you do that made it so successful? And secondly, I’m interested in did you go and buy another car or what did you then do with the money? Did you did you not.

Buy a car? I did. I did buy another car. I think I bought a g-wagon. And then father nicked it. I drove it for two weeks, then foreign nicked it. And so, yeah. So I think when COVID struck, I was worried. Three months like everyone else was. No one really knew what was going on. And then we were acquiring PPE, you know, paying extortionate rates for PPE. And at that time the government weren’t helping them. So she had to acquire her own PPE.

And so before you go before you go on, before you go on, before you go on the three months off, did you sort of take stock? I mean, outside of the worry for the business, we all had that. But did you take stock and say, well, I don’t have to work my butt off? I mean, I can I can also barbecue. I can also chill, you know, like.

No, I actually instructed my builders to start making out house and they started doing an extension on the practice. In my head, I thought COVID is going to burn out. Yeah, if I want to refurbish and remodel the practice while we’re running at full capacity, I’ll have to shut the practice down to do what I want to do. So I may as well take advantage of it being shut down. The builders can get on with their work. We did some training with our staff that I want stuff that, you know, you read about that you know, you get around to doing, you know, working more efficiently in surgery, this, that and the other. We had a whole load of notes we needed to sort out. I think at some point some of the nurses were repainting some of the surgeries and people wanted to get out, you know, and we were still manning our phones as well to give advice. So we dropped in to more surgeries. We moved our kitchen into our loft and built an academy teaching area. We built two big outhouses, remodel the garden. We had a new driveway put in. We had electric doors put in sliding doors, you know, So we were quite busy. And then when we reopened, I think prior to us reopening, I sold all my cars and then I borrowed half a million quid off the bank against my house because, you know, a friend of mine had gone bust a few years earlier. And I remember he said he said a very interesting thing.

He said to me, he said, oh, a bank are fairweather friends. They will lend you an umbrella when the sun is shining. But at the first sign of a cloud, they’re going to ask for that umbrella back. And this poor guy, he went busted a telecommunications company building phone maps. Basically they they pull the rug from under him. It was at a time where banks would make more money from stripping the assets from a company than actually waiting for you to repay the loan because they’d get their money back, sell the assets, and it was jobs for the boys and this is what happened to him. And so at the time, I had the choice of either borrowing 250 grand or half a million quid. And I thought, if this is going to go sideways, let’s just borrow half a million quid, let’s just go for it. And the thing is, since I’ve had a family, I’ve been quite risk averse. You know, I don’t want to buy the practice, I don’t do this, I don’t want to do that. But at that time. I just thought, you know what? Fuck it. If it’s gonna go, let’s just go big. Let’s go large. And I took the money and sunk it into the business. And then when COVID slowly subsided, the extra surgeries, the things that would implement it to make, you know, the flow of patients through the practice quicker and more efficient. You know, we had new computers, phone systems.

It’s very counter-intuitive move the counterintuitive move because people were scared.

They were scared. But I think at the back of my mind, I was looking at what was going on in China. I was part of a couple of study groups as well. So I think Coach Barrow had a study group going and, you know.

Daily briefings.

Yeah. And then there were I know a lot of dentists know a lot of people within the field. So I was chatting, you know, every day. I was in my office for three or 4 hours and I’d be chatting to people, you know, I’ve got some really good friends in London that have got practices, people in Birmingham, Coventry, you know, So so I was speaking to probably five or six dentists a day, you know, different fields. What are you doing? People that work for corporates, work for Portland Boots, what are they doing? What are they implemented? You know, organising the book. So, you know, so even with the team, we sat down and said, look guys, you know, we’ve got these one hour fallow times, what can we do? And then we’d source these industrial fans that could clear out a room in 15 minutes so that one hour father time was cut right down. So I think the private practices led the way in that when that happened, the private practices and the corporate big corporate side had jumped on it and they’d put protocols into place that had been adopted from America that had come over here that could negate that one hour fallow time. And so we’d set up a clever system where we had, you know, some practices, had four surgeries, then only had two dentists in working in between, one in between two surgeries, which I’d set it up. So we had two dentists working three surgeries. They do an AGP do a non AGP in the empty room. So we had a non a GP room that they’d alternate going in and out of.

So then we extended opening times from we would work from nine in the morning to ten at night. Rotating the staff through. So so that we were pulling 12 hour days in some days. But we had a 30%. We were seeing 30% normally see 200 to 250 patients a day through the clinic, and that was down to about 20 or 30. So it was a scary time. Slowly it came back, but it also helped us to become a lot more efficient. It was a blessing in disguise that we discovered things like Zoom and doing online consultations. And also when we were treating patients, you know, I brought we had 11 itero scanners in the practice. So I think we’re the only practice in the country, perhaps even Europe, to have 11 scanners for every single room has got an itinerary. And so again, we can scan infected to work. That fits immediately fits beautifully, you know, and you’re not waiting for a driver to come pick up impressions and stuff. It’s at the lab while the patient is still in the chair. And when the work comes back two or three days later, it fits straightaway, but also bumped up what the dentists were doing. So because of the exposure to an AGP, instead of just doing a filling and then come back for your crown. And it was all being done in one hit. And then when you look at the efficiency of doing all that in one hit, your underlying fixed costs actually go down, you know, because you’re not having to clean down and get your instruments out again.

Sterilise and change, you know, your scanner tips and this that you’re doing everything in one hit in one go, and then you can close the room down. So yeah, I think our revenues increase pre-COVID to now by 30%, 30 to 40% increase in turnover. But I think what was interesting was that I remember I sat down with my associate, I remember one of my I said, Look, guys, I’m going to have to reduce the percentages you’re on. We can’t pay 50% on private work If I’m a box of glove has gone up from £2 50 to 30 quid, it’s just not financially viable. And I remember my dentist and this is the test of a team that during adversity did they step up and go, Boss will support you and we trust you. And all of my team stepped up. They all said, we trust your boss, you know, and you know what you’re doing. We’ll trust you. And I am one of my said Dr.. If you show. Don’t pay me because I live with my parents. I’ve got some money in the bank. I don’t need any money. And I remember it touched me. I thought, Jesus Christ, this guy. And even to this day, you know, I remember him saying those words to me. But then I had friends that had practices. Some of their associates were saying, Oh, well, no, we’re not we’re not going to accept a low percentage and you need to pay pay me. And and it filled me with sadness that.

It’s like, what do you think? What are some of the difference between what’s the difference between your practice culturally and that other practice culturally? Is it that you respected these people for years before? Listen to.

Them. I think part of it is if you care about the people that you know, like my staff, just a draft example. One of my nurses, she sang, Oh, we were having some new computers. And she goes, Oh, do you mind if I have one of your old computers for my son? And I said, You know, and I said, Well, they’re being sent off to be destroyed in this, that and the other. And and what I did was because we had ordered about 30, 40 computers, I said to the guy, put one more on. And when we had our computers installed, I said, so we’ve got a computer left over and it’s a brand new computer. And I bought it for her son. And I gave it to him. She goes, Well, what do I for? I said, No, you can have it. Take it, you know, use it if it helps your son. You know, I didn’t have a computer and I’m going to university. I was one of the only kids that couldn’t word processor or use computer to, you know, and that felt filled me with joy and happiness to give something. And I didn’t want recognition money for it, but it made me happy in the same way that, you know. If one of my dentists gets into trouble, I’m the clinical lead, and if anything goes sideways, it gets sent to me to sort out.

So a lot of my dentists, over 20 years, they would have had two or three complaints I’ve made go away or I’ve dealt with or, you know, if they’ve needed a crown or sorted out or whatever. You know, I think people sense when you’re fair and honest with them and that they sense when you genuinely care about how they are and how they’re doing. So my staff, you know, the cleaner, the junior nurses, senior receptionists, I always stop and talk to everyone, you know. And I’ll know, for example, when my dad just come out of hospital, you know, following pneumonia and I’ll stop and check with how she died doing. Is he all right? Even if I’ve got patients waiting. How are you getting on? You know? You know, if someone’s had problems and one of my nurses had an issue with a credit card bill, they send you a thing saying, Oh, you need to deduct a source. And I said, What’s going on? She’d split it with a partner and find out she was struggling. And I said, Why don’t you said anything? Because I was embarrassed. I didn’t want to discuss it. So I paid off a credit card bill for her. And it wasn’t a lot, you know. But ultimately, that same nurse now, whenever I work with her, I come into a doctor.

That’s a particular day. Can I get you some biscuits? You know? She. There’s almost a love for them people. This were like family. I genuinely I think my staff, we treat each other like family and with care. And because we have a strong work ethic that’s come, you know, from 20 years ago and 20 years ago, I was much harsher, you know, as a boss that I wasn’t particularly compassionate. If someone was ill because their child was unwell, that bollocking, why weren’t you here? We’re trying to run a business. Whereas now I have my own children. I know what it’s like that you know, or if someone’s unwell, I’ll pay them their wages, you know, because if they’ve got mortgages and bills to pay, you know, if I lose 500 quid, 600 quid, that’s the difference between someone paying their rent. I’m not going to miss 500 quid out my wallet, you know, in a hurry. It’s still money and I do value it, but it has greater value to someone that’s in greater need. So, you know, I’m not like Jesus. I don’t walk on water and stuff like that, you know? And some of my staff will say, I can be a tough taskmaster, but. But there’s love there.

Yes, I was going to say so. I was going to say when, when, when, when push comes to shove. And you have to discipline someone or fire someone. Do you find the transition from that family love thing to the boss and disciplinarian? Quite smooth. You find you find it easy flipping?

Yeah, I think part of it goes back to being very poor, valuing people’s time. You know, people that have worked with me for a long time, I don’t suffer fools gladly. Were there, you know, were there to work and provide a professional, high quality service. And I you know, someone said to me, you offer a champagne service for lemonade money, and that stuck with me. And, you know, you know, if you’re delivering exceptional service, exceptional work. And you’re having fun along the way. I don’t mind that. If you’re messing around and not delivering. I do mind that because that to me is costing us money, you know, and it’s costing us our reputation. So. So I think my team know that I expect them to work when they’re at work. They’re there to, you know, first and foremost, they’re there to work. If friendships and fun develop out of doing that hard work, that’s great, you know, and it’s good. But I think if your team a well guided they’re happier so so people still recognise you know you know on their boss first and foremost and then you know I’m their friend second but I am their friend and one of my nurses, when we refer to move to our kitchens, she goes, Oh, what are you doing with your range cooker? There’s a brand new range cook that we had, and I said, Do you want it? And she goes, Oh yeah, but I don’t know how to get it to the house. I dropped it personally to a house with my builder, put it on my pickup, dropped it around and we fitted it for her. And whenever she says she goes, Ali, we had a lovely roast and thank you for my cook. And the thing is, you don’t do these things that they’re not to me, they’re not big things. It’s just being kind to your fellow man, you know? And that makes me happy. I don’t know why it fills me. It’s like giving to charity. It makes me happy, you know?

It’s not. It’s not. It’s like. It’s like giving a present is more pleasurable than getting a present, isn’t it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it’s. Yeah, it’s on paper.

It shouldn’t be that. It is.

Yeah, I think. Again, talk about people on a life journey as you transition. Money becomes less and less important to a person and your personal and mental well-being becomes more and more important.

I do a thing where I read people’s Google reviews.

And yours. I wrote.

All morning.

I that’s why my mom wrote some of them so stunning.

So the way almost I think of life, I think of different things in terms of sort of frequency and amplitude, you know, the and the frequency and amplitude of these of these comments. It’s just so beautiful, so slow. And then when you look at the key words, the words that people often mentioned the most, there’s, you know, the ones you’d expect, like Invisalign, you know. But family reception is 16 times when you read through them. My goodness me, people are over the moon. It’s not just like a five star they’ve been told to write. Sort of. It’s a genuine, genuine, beautiful things that people have said. What’s the do you train your team on that or is it that you go very high level? We respect people, we love people, we do a great job and then leave it to them? Or do you literally train them?

No, there’s no training at reception Reception. Don’t you know? That’s amazing. Say here we leave this a Google review. What tends to happen is when we treat patients, I often take photographs on my phone and I WhatsApp them to the patient and say, This is your teeth before this is what they look like after. Thank you for choosing us. I hope you’re okay. So I usually touch base with them a day later, you know, and I usually review them a week down the road to see how they’re getting on or if they’ve had bonding. I usually fit a retainer a week later. And at that point, you know, usually we’ll just send them a WhatsApp message. There’s no pressure. I don’t think it’s fair to say to them, Will you leave me a Google review to their face? You know, while you’re holding a drill in your hand, It’s not really fair. You know, it’s very you know, hey, let me help you write it, you know, or here’s an iPad. Leave a review while you’re sitting in front.

But, you know, I have my co hosts, My my co-host has a whole process for getting brilliant Google reviews that he trains the teams on. And it’s a beautiful process. But these don’t look like they’re they’re like that. They just there’s love in these.

Let’s see we’ll send a WhatsApp and it will say something like, you know, I hope you enjoy your smile. If you do get a chance, please leave. A Google review would mean a great deal to me. Regards Allie. So it’s not from the practice, it’s from me. If I’ve treated them and then some people do. I get a lot of people that are trying to join my practice as NHS patients, and we’ve not accepted patients for NHS patients for about seven eight years and then they can’t register and you’ll get to a 4.8 star review and then someone will leave a one star review saying, I can’t register with this practice and they wouldn’t see me unless it was privately. And they’re really greedy. And I think one of my reviews, I responded to him saying, Well, for the £23, you pay me half, it goes to the dentist. Because you wrote always greedy dentists, they wouldn’t see me. I said, half of it goes to the dentist. So that leaves me about £11.50. I’ve got a pay a receptionist nurse Sterilise your instruments pay for my PPE plus treat you so. So I can’t really be accused of being greedy because it probably costs me money to treat you, you know?

What about what about associates? Associates, buddy? What’s your view on you? Obviously, having to attract and retain high quality associates for many years. What’s your view? I mean, let’s start with what do you do if your associates been on them? And he comes back and says, I want to buy this, that and the other, What do you do about that? Do you buy it for him? Do you make it make a case? What happens?

Open ordering policy. If they’re going to generate revenue and it’s relatively sensible, I say order it. I worked in a couple of practices before setting up my squat, so and what motivated me to set up my squad. So six months post 50, I worked in a practice, I did my PhD training in Leamington, went to Erdington and worked for a chat, and then I also worked evening and Saturdays for an emergency clinic and both of these clinics that I worked in, in Erdington and Sally Oak, they were a masterclass in how not to run a practice. You know, the the staff were poorly motivated. The boss would sit there bitching about staff behind their backs. The boss in one wouldn’t order material, so he was ordering the cheapest off. He was just wring every penny out of the practice that he could. And then they sold the practice to a corporate. And I just remember. At this woman, vile woman walking in and she goes, We’ve taken over. These are your new contracts. You need to sign them now. And she threw a contract at me. And I remember it landed on the floor in front of me, and I just stood up and walked out. I thought, you know, and I thought, I’m not working for people like this. I don’t care who they are. And then I think their area manager came to speak to me because I was generating more revenue than the principal and the other associate put together. But I’d worked through my lunch to do Domiciliary and they said, What does it take for you to stay? And I said and I said, If she’s the manager, I don’t want to work for you.

Said, You don’t throw contracts at people. We’re not Dogs were people. And, you know, ultimately, I can’t sign a contract because I’m leaving. I just want to hand in my notice. And at that stage, I sort of look to move away. And I was looking for an associate position, but I couldn’t find anything that I liked. And then I saw a chair for sale in the bdg and I thought, Well, I want to set up a practice at some parts. Go and have a look at this chair. Got there and it was a practice that had shut down. The guy had got struck off. He was an alcoholic. The dentist was the landlord was selling off the equipment from the surgery. And I said, Well, what are you doing with the building? You know? And he goes, Well, we were going to just sell the equipment and convert it back into a shop. And I said, Well, can I can I rent it off you? So. And he goes, Well, yeah. And so the rent was, I think, three grand for the year to rent. And these two second-hand chairs Panix machine set. So that’s six months post me and I set up my own practice and then I spent two years running up this squat, and then I put enough money together to put a deposit on the practice I’ve got now.

But I was self-made. My parents weren’t wealthy, you know. So that was two years of learning how to run a practice. And then and then I had to shut it down because the landlord wouldn’t transfer the lease to any buyer found. So I think, you know, I think going back to your question, that sort of retaining associate, you know, I was I would stay there as an associate if I’d been looked after. And I think what you tend to find is my associates at my practice don’t really leave. One of my associates is leaving now after ten years. He was my PhD, but he’s setting he’s taking over from his wife who’s got a practice and she’s going on maternity, so he’s going over to run the practice there. It’s very rare, my staff, because, for example, I’ll give them their own itinerary, I’ll pay the submissions for them, they can order what they want to. We spend a shed load on marketing, so they’ve got a gluttony of private patients coming into them wanting treatment. We spread the patients evenly. Everyone gets a fair crack of the whip. You know, I’m there to facilitate any complaints or tricky cases they want. So. So I think part of it you often find is if an associate, you sometimes get associates saying, well, are you getting 50% at the practice up the road? But if the principals creaming off all the private patients or they don’t have any private patients coming in or they don’t have an online presence.

Or a.

Good social media, you know, 50% of nothing is nothing. 45% of a lot is a lot. It’s the same thing with UDA values. We were interviewing some associates recently, and increasingly we get associates coming in. They’ve done courses like the mini Small Maker course and, you know, or some of some other course that they’ve done a weekend course. They come in and they come in and maybe they’ve got it right, maybe I’ve got it wrong. They come in saying, We only want to work three days a week. The rest of the time I need for personal development and stuff. And I only want to do private work. And the problem is my practice is a mixed practice. I can’t let a newbie come in. So we’re going to send you all of our private patients or some of them that come in. So you have an entirely private list. When everyone else is doing mixed lists, it’s not fair, you know, and for us to do that, it’s not just, you know, and, you know.

Your practice isn’t isn’t right for that person, though. That’s that’s it.

I think part usually we say to our business model tends to be based on the fact that, you know, you often find part time dentists that are running a clinic or surgery. You’ve got two part timers. They won’t generate as much revenue as a full time dentist. The full time dentist will be used to as nurse, whereas materials are, and they will generate probably on average, 15 to 20% more than if you put two associates in that room because stuff will get moved. The nurses aren’t quite used to working with each other or if dentist A treats a patient and they come back three days later. Dentist BE And most people are ethical, but some dentists will say, well, on the NHS I’m not paid a penny to repair what’s broken to go back to your treating dentist. So I think the quality of care can in some instances diminish as well. So we prefer to take on full time dentists that are there most of the time. So if any of their problems come back and sometimes even with the best one I can pop a filling in and it might come off or a veneer hasn’t stuck down properly and they’re back a couple of days later. But for that continuity of treatment, my preference is to have full time guys with us and full time guys that are willing. Like the ironies in our practice, we have a stable list of niche patients that want to access NHS Check-ups but nine times out of ten they’ll opt for private fillings, be that bleaching, white fillings, private zirconia crowns, etc.

So yes, they might be having a check-up, you know, for for their £22 a day or whatever it is, but they’re having a £700 crown hand in hand with it. So, so that sort of nonsense where people come and say, well I can get £23 a year up the road and you’re thinking, well go on and take it, you’re welcome to. And I think in our practice we’re blessed in that our guys, you know, I’ve got guys that have done postgraduate training implants and far as amazing at Invisalign, I’m lucky enough to have, you know, trained under Dipesh Palmer himself. And so, you know, we’re good at bonding, you know, So we’ve got a massive range of experience. So if anyone joining us like, well, want to learn about endo and how to do not endo to the sound of a normal GP, but an exceptionally well trained endo guide, that all he does is endo you know, all specialises in it. It’s a fantastic learning, you know, learn about. We were PhD trains for about ten, 15 years as well. And so we’re set up, we’re geared up to teach people how to learn stuff. And that’s part of the reason we put an academy in the practice as well, because we wanted to share that knowledge.

So we’ve set up a camera above the chair that fires up to two big screens in the loft, and we can have 15, 20 delegates there, you know, viewing it. So, you know, I think ultimately when associates, retaining associates, anyone that works for us doesn’t want to leave because there’s a great team, there’s good solid management, if something breaks, we’ll fix it. You know, and often in corporate practices, it’s got to go up the chain before anything gets done or. If one of my dentists says, I want to try this, it’s okay, fine. Let’s do it. We’ll support you. You know. But Fara. She’s my wife. But even if she was an associate and she said, Well, I want to try Invisalign, can I have a scanner? And that’s a 50 grand outlay, you know. So. Oh, 45 whatever it was, and it’s fine. Let’s do it. Let’s try some marketing, you know? But then at that point, we rolled scanners out to all the associates. So let’s all use them, because, you know, the work, the fits of work is superb on the restorative. And it’s a fantastic product for Invisalign. You don’t be hanging around. If someone’s interested in Invisalign, it’s worth four grand. You don’t be waiting 20 minutes or half an hour to grab hold of a scanner that’s free.

Okay, let’s move on to darker questions. I’m really interested in times where you think you’ve made mistakes. Things you could have done better, both from a clinical perspective and from a business perspective, because a lot of times we don’t talk about our mistakes in medicine and you know, we don’t get to learn from each other’s mistakes. What comes to mind when I when I say that.

I remember as an f d treating an elderly lady. And I was taking out her upper eight. And I heard a crack carried on taking out this eight. And her mouth filled with blood and was pulse 60. And this poor woman was probably 85 years old. And I remember going next door to my boss, Go, Boss, can you please come and have a look at this? Yes, I’ll be there in a minute. And I kicked him. I said no. Bill, can you please come and have a look at it immediately, please? And he could see the terror in my face because I thought, she’s going to die. And he came in. I remember his. He was a great oral surgeon, great set of hands. His pupils just dilated. And he died. So to all. And then this woman, bless her, came in a week later, and the whole right side of the face was bruised and black. And I was close to tears. And I was saying, I’m so sorry. How are you? She goes, I’m fine, my love. Don’t worry. We’ve all got to learn somehow. And and I remember I went home thinking I shouldn’t be a dentist. And, you know, but I think at that time, early on, you know, your I’ve been in training myself for ten years, and we’ve had about ten pairs of trainees come through the practice.

And, you know, as time went on, you know, I think the support that you had 20 years ago was quite poor. It was just get on with it. I know my boss would say, Right, you’re doing the emergencies on Saturday here, the practice case. And I think another time he phoned me up, say there’s a patient with toothache, 7:00 in the evening, open up the practice, take a tooth out and drop the keys round back around to the house. And I went to his house, dropped the keys off and he handed me a silver tray with drinks on it goes Right. You’re serving drinks. He was having a soiree and you did it. You were BFD, you were the dogsbody in the practice. And I remember serving drinks. Now, if I look at my last PhD, if I said, right, your serving drinks at my practice or go to serving drinks at a soiree I’m holding there, just say piss off, I’m not doing it and I’m reporting you to the deanery advisor. Or if I said go to the practice and treat a patient by yourself.

It was unheard of. It’s unheard of now. But back then it was just I remember I spent one Wednesday afternoon, all the dentists had gone off for games, one had gone to play golf, one had gone to play tennis, and I spent 4 hours trying to take out it was a guy. He was a footballer. I spent 4 hours trying to take out a seven. It kept factoring and I still didn’t get it all out. And after 4 hours my arms were ready to fall off, so I had to call him back and to do it. But you were just left to fend for yourself. So I think clinically. Touch wood. I can’t remember the last time I’ve had a complaint or issue. You know, we all have difficulties. Dentures might not go right or a feeling might not be perfect or the odd piece of lab. But. But nothing catastrophic is that I can recall that’s happened. I think I’ve also learned as I’ve got older. Things that can go wrong or have gone wrong are, I think, are based on my own vanity where, you know, a patient has come in, they want something. They’ve just got unrealistic expectations. And, you know, you sort of think, oh, well, I’m.

Captain.

Underpants, I can deliver. Get in the chair, let’s do this. Yeah, but you end up just with me. I have no quibble. Refund if a patient says I’m not happy. Yeah, I won’t just say, hey, I have a partner, I will say, have all of your money back. I’m sorry. I’ve not met your expectations. So at that point, you kill any complaint debt Because as long as they’re in a better position than they were, than when you started, which they generally will be, and you’ve given them full refund, you can just get on with something else and earn your money elsewhere. I think where some dentists might fail, they get so wrapped. Well, you know, it’s almost an admission of guilt. Well, I’ve given them a refund. You know, I’ve been known. I think we had a complaint six months ago with one of our associates. It was over a filling that had been done. There was a slight overhang. The patient sort of had discomfort with it, and the patient’s brother was a dentist and this guy was just going mental that shouldn’t have been left and this, that and the other. And the guy had a mouth full of supervised neglect and then in the end sort of was booked in with me to sort out. And then I said, Look, you might need a root filling with this tooth if I redo the filling, you know, well I’m not paying for the I’m not paying for the crown.

I need on it either. You know, my brother’s a dentist and they said dentist roll over easily and you should do it free of charge. And at that point I said, look, you know, we’re not liable to provide a crown for you and we’re not liable to you. I’m happy to replace the filling, but technically, I have to warn you, you might need a root canal treatment, which you may have needed anyway, because it was a very deep feeling, really unhappy kicking off. And I said, Well, I’ll tell you. What is it you want? He goes, Well, I want my money back. And I said, Well, fine, we’ll refund you. And he goes, Well, I can’t afford to have the treatment because guy I want to do it is more expensive than you are. I said, Well, I’ll tell you what, we’ll give you all of your money back that you spent on your course of treatment with this. So you’ve had some other bits and bobs done. And so we ended up giving him 600 quid back. I think the filling had been charged 180 quid for. He still came back and went after the dentist saying, you know, I want more money, I want compensation, this, that. And it went all the way to the GDC and it got kicked out. But the dentist went through a year of just hell with it. But I think those are an overhang. Sorry.

Over an overhang.

Over and over how it was ridiculous, the fact that it even got to the GDC and wasn’t thrown out but the guy went through. There was a visual change in his demeanour while he was dealing with this complaint and, you know, and it was important to support him and say, Look, you’ve not done anything wrong. It could have happened to any of us. You’ve got to just let it go, get on with, you know. And, you know, if someone ends up having to pay out for it, the insurance will cover it. So you’ve not done anything wrong. You know, so I think a lot of dentists are left. I think I think I listen to a podcast with Neil Palmer and he was saying that, you know, there is a mental price that’s paid by dentists and you’re often on your own when there’s a complaint, and often we’re too ashamed, like you say, to admit that you’ve got something wrong and we’re all human and you’re dealing with biological tissues and you can do 100 fillings the same. Nine. If four might work, ten of them might end up with irreversible politesse and the feeling might not be any different than the other 90. You just don’t know. But I think ultimately most patients are generally quite sensible. But you’ll get the odd, crazy patient that no matter what you do, they’re just not happy. And I think I’ve learnt as a leader, I’ve learnt how to say no. So in terms of and that reduces your risk of a clinical failing because all that ends up happening.

I had another case that we did, we replaced some crowns, I think 4 to 4. We redid them. They were a mess to begin with. She looked lovely when they were done. She went away six months. I came back. I’m not quite happy. My husband doesn’t like them. People stopped me in the street and say to me, What’s happened to your teeth, strangers? And I said, Well, let’s look at the photographs. As soon as the patient says that, you just think you’re lying because they look okay, they look lovely, but okay. I said, Well, these are the photographs of what you look like before you go. Oh, my God, I don’t remember them being that bad. They they were like that. This is what they look like now. So. So what exactly are strangers and your husband saying to you? So I don’t quite understand because I think you look better. No, no, I’m not happy. I want them redone. I want the colour slightly different. I want the shape slightly different. This, that and the other. I want them to look like this. And at that point, she pulls out a picture of Angelina Jolie. This is probably 65 and you’re thinking Right, I can’t make you look like Angelina Jolie. Even with the best will in the world, I might be able to get your teeth close, but I can’t change your face. And at that point, I said, all right, we’ll redo them for you if you’re that unhappy.

We’ll do a new mock-up. We’ll do a stent. We’ll show it all to you again, you know. And then we went and I think I did them again. And she went away. She came back a year later. I’m still not happy. At which point I just gave her a full riff and I said, Have all of your money back. I cannot help you. You know, I can’t improve what I’ve done for you and good luck. Hopefully there’ll be done so that it can meet your expectations. I think two years later, she came back to me again. Please, will Dr. Ali see me? Please. Will you do my teeth for me? I’ve been to two or three other places and no one wants to touch it. They probably looked at it and thought, You’ve got a bit of dysmorphia and there might be a psychological element to her needing treatment. But it’s cases like that now that come in. I think I’m better at picking up at the beginning if I can meet someone’s expectations, you know, and often what you find with, I think the advent of social media now, people’s expectations are actually higher than they used to be. So before you could almost get away with doing something that would just improve the situation. Now it’s got to match, you know, some of these brilliant dentist work that you see on Instagram. It’s got to come close to it. Otherwise you can have an unhappy punter on your hands.

What about what about a business mistake? What comes to mind?

I think. One of the things I regretted the most was when I was married to my second wife. I was offered a practice over in Kenilworth and at that time I negotiated a loan. So everyone was after this private practice.

Second wife are your first wife?

Second wife. So I think my first wife was when I first bought my share. With my first practice? No. I’d set up my spot and I’d got married then. And then literally, we were married for four months. And unfortunately, she. She was very upset and almost suicidal that she didn’t want to get married and father a lot of pressure and to get married. I think we’d met four times before. You know, her parents and my parents decided that we were getting married. And so after four months, unfortunately, we went our separate ways. And I think she was relieved, as was I. And then I think I think my mom caught me probably between girlfriends probably six years later saying, you look, you’re older, you’ve had your fun time to settle down. And then I was introduced to my second wife and again, there wasn’t much of a spark there at all, but our family seemed to get on very well. Being a good sort of Muslim boy, my mom and dad saying, Look, this family’s nice, they’re good for you and you’ll be a good match. And you know, your old days are behind you and married and unfortunately, just very unhappy. We had nothing in common. There was no spark. There was no real love there. And after ten months, she left and then we got divorced. And that was it. That was sort of arranged marriage number two. But at the time when I was married to her, I was offered a practice over in Canada.

Loads. People were after it. It was a freehold practice. I think there were six surgeries. It had a good NHS contract and I just won the dentistry awards Best Dentist in the Midlands. So this was 2008. And you know, I met the guy he saw, he came over to my practice, looked at the awards that we’d won the best team in the Midlands, best practice, I’d won the best young dentist. And he said, I really like your practice. I like what you’re about and your team and I want my practice to go to someone that’s going to look after my patients and you fit the bill. And so even though I wasn’t offering because it turned into a bidding war, people were offering way over the asking price. And I got it for the asking price. I think it was 1.2 mil. I had a loan, which I think 0.75 above base rate, which was what they were prepared to lend to me at the bank were. And the deal was sewn up, ready to sign off. And then my wife at the time said, If you work too hard as it is, if you buy this practice, I’m leaving you. I’m going back to my mum and dad. And at the time my parents were putting pressure on me saying, Look, you need to make your marriage work.

It’s your second marriage and you know you can only one chapatti and one bowl of daal a night. You don’t need any more. Don’t you know? Don’t put your family first, put your personal. And so against my gut instinct, I pulled out of the deal at the 11th hour. I said, look to the guy, I’m so sorry. My wife’s not being supportive. And then about three months later, she left anyway. And it took me. These practices come up on the market so rarely. Even now, 20 years later, I’ve never seen another practice that ticked all the boxes, you know? And for about two years, it took me a long, long time to get over it because because the lending rate was so it was like free money. I was being handed a practice that I could add value to very easily because it was, you know, it wasn’t being run particularly well. And when she left and I ended up getting divorced anyway, I just literally I was so upset about it. And, you know, and I think it impacted on me for a long time. But then having said that, I met my wife Sara, that I have two lovely children with now. And, you know, it’s probably the happiest I’ve been in my life, you know, So it happens. It all happens for a reason. So again, that goes back to that personal success. That was.

An element. Was there an element? Was there an element of of I’m not going to listen to my parents anymore at that point?

Yeah, well, after this practice fell through, I wrote a check to my mother and we had a bit of a falling out in that I think there was a wedding we were going to. And she goes, I don’t want you to come because people ask where your wife is and this, that and the other. And you know, and I remember saying someone, Well, tell people your son’s dead then if that’s how you feel, if you can’t support me as your son, tell them. And dead And I walked out the house and then for about two years my mum, I didn’t speak to my mum for about two years. I was so angry and especially with the divorce. And then suddenly you realise that on the one hand you’re you have this pressure put on by Asian parents, that family honour and all of this crap, which frankly I don’t care for, you know. But on the flip side, under British law, if you marry someone, they don’t care if you met someone seven times or six times and you don’t really know them, they’ll go after your assets, they’ll go after your business, your home, your vehicle, your money.

And, you know, ultimately, more often than not at that time, I was doing my second marriage financially, it was very successful, had a big house, had a big practice. You know, I had a nice car. And you’ve married someone that hasn’t contributed to anything at all during your marriage, financially or otherwise, that suddenly they’ve got free rein on potentially taking half of your assets off you. So in that sense, I think, you know, it made me angry that I’d been that stupid to put myself at that sort of risk. And even when I met Father, I said, I don’t want to get married. And she was upset saying, Well, look, we can’t just live together. We have to get married. My dad won’t let me just live with you. We have to get married. And I remember I met her father to explain to her that, Look, I’ve been married before. I don’t want to get married again. I want to just live with your daughter. And he.

Looked at me.

Crazy, man, you know, like he was sort of, you know, a sort of blood vessel on his temple was pulsating like he was going to murder me. And and I said, I just want to spend a year getting to know your daughter. And I remember he looked at me because, look, son, he goes, Marry her. And you can spend your entire life getting to know her. Yes. You’re not just living with her. It’s not going to happen. So and so. So we did get married. And thankfully, you know, she stayed with me. And we’ve got two lovely children. And whenever we fight, she does throw in my face. Or the other two cows left you. I’m going to leave you now, too. So, you know, so she generally wins most arguments with me.

So you never you never know from the outside. Right. But you guys do look very, very, very happy, man. You just like making. Each other, laugh the whole time is a great recipe.

Yeah, I think we have quite we’re lucky in the sense that ten years on, I must admit I’m still not bored nor ashamed. She keeps me on my toes. An example will be I can walk in and go, Oh, can you make a cup of tea and sort of do it yourself in front of the builder? And so you learn. You learn where those sorts of parameters are. And so, you know, and you know, we argue like cat and dog sometimes, but then equally there’s a lot of love there and care there. And sort of ten years down the road, we’ve found a groove where we just rub along, you know. So there’s an Asian saying where you throw two rough rocks into a stream and they rub off each other and they become smooth like pebbles. So we’re slowly becoming pebbles, slowly but surely.

Nice, but perhaps going to do me in for keeps telling me your podcast for too long. One want 50 minutes in I think we need to we need to bring it to close but it’s been lovely talking to you. I’m going to close it with the usual questions that we always ask. Fancy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive. Are you going to have?

Well, I think my first guess would be slightly controversial. It’d be Andrew Tate.

I find you like a bit of an educator.

Yeah. I find some of the statements he makes quite controversial. But equally, I think he’s a very interesting person to listen to. I think the second person would be there’s an American lifestyle coach called Tony Robbins. Yeah. And I think he’s listening to some of his seminars. You know, mentally, I think it’s very uplifting listening to him. And he has a very positive mindset in terms of looking after yourself physically and mentally.

Have you been to one of his seminars?

I haven’t. I’ve got his books. He’s done a couple of books recently.

You know, money that won.

It was I forget the title. So I’ve got. I’ve got a terrible habit of buying books and I never get around to reading them. So I’ve got books like sort of Seven Habits, Habits of highly Effective People and, you know, books by Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And you have to stop worrying and start living.

So Anthony Robbins, Tony Robbins. Well, years ago, 20 years ago, I wrote Awakened Giant Within an Unlimited Power. Recently, recently, he’s written this one called Money that People Keep banging on About. I haven’t I haven’t read that one, but apparently not read that.

I think the two books that I’ve got on my bookshelf, I forget the names of them, but yeah, Tony Robbins, I think some of his on line stuff, you know, if you look it up, look up some of his online lectures and stuff, that they’re just fascinating. The energy that he comes across with it is just, you know, who’s.

The who’s the third guess because it’s getting quite testosterone. You go on, who’s the third guest? Who’s the third guest? Because we’re getting kind of testosterone so far.

Third guess. I think it would be Jordan Peterson. He’s a Canadian. Jordan Peterson is a Canadian philosopher and professor, isn’t he? And I find him very interesting as well. But, you know, and some of the things they come out with are slightly controversial. But then equally, I just find them fascinating to listen to. Oh, another one would be. There’s a guy called Mitchinson. He’s passed away. He’s an atheist, and he’s do lectures at Oxford University.

Christopher Hitchens. Yeah. Hitchens. Hitchens.

Hitchens. Hitchens. Hitchens Yeah. Hitchens Yeah. Yeah, he. I found some of his lectures were quite interesting as well. So yeah, probably, probably one of these guys.

Interesting list of people, man. Interestingly, see, people I don’t know if you heard Jordan Peterson, he was on Joe Rogan this week. Brilliant. Three hour conversation. He just didn’t stop talking. But it was constantly brilliant.

Now he is something that’s really interesting about, you know, something that Andrew Tate and John Peterson both have in common. Maybe something that’s left over from my divorces is that they look at men’s mental health. And that’s something that perhaps we don’t talk about that, particularly with the MeToo movement. And this that I remember there was their Gillette advert that came out where it was men behaving quite appallingly, and then suddenly that’s not okay. And then suddenly, you know, the world’s all sunshine and roses again. And a lot of people boycotted Gillette products saying, Well, most men don’t behave in that abhorrent manner towards women and sort of tarring everyone with the same brush. And I think the voice of men to an extent, be that with domestic violence against men and in particular mental health. I think that’s something I know. I was very lonely when I got divorced. You know, and particularly within the Asian culture where you felt you couldn’t go to people’s houses and you couldn’t go out and it was something to be ashamed of. But I look back at it and, you know, I look at my ex-wives and think there are no winners there. And I feel sorry that they were pressured into marriages.

I feel sorry for me that I didn’t have a voice to say, Well, no, I don’t want to do this and I’m not doing this. And I think that that whole. Issue about men not talking to one another. I think it’s something that’s so important. So I talked to a lot of my male friends regularly. I make time to chat to them. How are you getting on how you’re doing and or go out, you know, as a bite to eat, You know, just have a one on one chat, you know, And it might be that you might go and say, My wife’s terrible. She did this, that and the other, and you feel better, You mentally feel better. Historically, men don’t really do that. My wife is always checking to a friend and, you know, and I’ve started to do that more. I check to my friends now and say, Oh, you know, how’s your week been? How you been? Or if someone says they’re down, I will make an effort to check in on them. Say, What’s going on? Let’s go out, let’s, you know, go for a blast in a fun car or something, you know, And, you know.

I know also, when you lay over the stresses of dentistry. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, dentistry has been a stressful job for 100 years. It’s not it’s not just the GDC and the Dental Law Partnership and the NHS. And, you know, dentists have had a high suicide rate in countries where, you know, in the US or in many countries, Right. Yeah. Yeah. Where, where these problems haven’t been there. So the job itself has some sort of inherent stress. Well I guess the stuff Nilesh was talking about, you take on, you take on the patient stress when it goes wrong, it can go very wrong sometimes. Yeah. And then, and then you’ve got the sort of the isolation of being in one room with one nurse. And sometimes, you know, you’ve got a great relationship with your nurse, but I’m sure if you haven’t got a great relationship with your nurse, it’s a total nightmare. Man. Yeah. Like, come to that room and spend a whole day with someone you hate or someone who hates you, you know, or whatever it is. And then you lay over on top of that, this thing you’re saying about men, which is real because men don’t discuss their feelings. And it’s not very it hasn’t been very fashionable for men to be talked about, everyone else to be talked to. So it’s real. It’s real that, you know. Lovely to talk to you, man.

Yeah. Yeah, Likewise. Pam. Thank you so much for having me. You know, it’s been lovely chatting to you and hope I’m not said anything too untoward or offensive to your audience or yourself.

The the you say say your truth. That’s that’s the most important thing, isn’t it? That’s. That’s why this medium is working so well now. Yeah. Because people have had enough of, of inauthentic stuff. And I can’t think of anyone more authentic than you, buddy. So it’s.

Very easy.

Very lovely to have had you. Thank you. And I miss you, buddy. I miss you. You look out for me, man. I miss you. Come and see us again.

Did you.

Working too.

Hard? I must say. I’m going to give you a big cuddle. I won’t.

Working too hard crazily. I even put a Birmingham date in today. I put a Birmingham date in thinking of you and thinking of Depeche as well. Not having to travel, but he likes to travel. But I put a Birmingham date in October or something like that, so come see us.

Definitely, for sure. Lovely to see you, man. Thank you once again. Give my love to everyone. Love you, man. Take care.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both for me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

I would argue quite strongly that what we’re teaching at the minute and implant dentistry, we’re teaching the surgical principles, which is lifting flaps and managing soft tissue, all really good, important fundamental things. But the bit we’re missing is to make sure that we put it in the right place. If we put it in the right place, we will reduce our surgical complications and we will reduce our risk of complications. That’s the position, and that’s where guided surgery fits.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast, where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav.

Selling cake gives me great pleasure to welcome Dr. James Hamill onto the podcast. James is a long time implant leader, is the way I would describe it. First came on my radar with blue Apple Dental. But things have moved on a lot for James. He’s a bit of a serial entrepreneur, teaches mentors, distributes near dental implants in Ireland, CEO, of course dental and recently doing a roadshow around the UK with his chrome product which is really taken off which is the implant digital workflow, which James you’re looking at now going across Europe. With pleasure to have you, buddy.

Welcome. Yeah, Yeah. Thank you. Yep.

So, James, do you grew up in Northern Ireland?

Yep. Correct. Yeah. Currently, Fermanagh, a little sleepy town called Enniskillen, which is over on the west side of Northern Ireland. So we’re, we’re, we’re known as border people. So we grew up on the border.

So Enniskillen to me, only the troubles. I remember Enniskillen coming up in the Troubles. Do you have memories of the Troubles being a feature of your childhood, or were you past that point when you were?

Very much so. Now you’ve brought that up. That makes me feel quite sad actually. But that that’s what you remember Enniskillen for? Yeah. Yeah. So Enniskillen was unfortunately made famous because of the Enniskillen bomb which happened which happened at the Cenotaph when when there was a group families, husbands and wives and kids there for the Remembrance Day period that took place there every year. And yeah, it was a very tragic time for me. Now that you’ve said that the memories actually of that flood back. Yeah. So we grew up in The Troubles. I suppose my generation was generation where we couldn’t we were restricted in where we could go. We went to Belfast. Everything was about. Was there going to be able was there going to be one of these calls that came in that you had to evacuate certain areas? But that’s what we lived with. So I suppose it was nothing unusual. It’s probably more unusual not to have it. And I’ve got two children, 18 and 16, and that’s amazing that they haven’t had to grow up in that environment. And thank God they haven’t had to grow up with that environment, you know, at. You know, I remember I stole so many stories, but I remember sitting in class and one of my very good friends being removed from the class to find out that his dad had been blown. Blown up. Right. But they are very close to the village that I lived in. And that still is a haunting memory of him walking out the door.

The normalisation of it, isn’t it? Because you could even say we grew up with it or I grew up with it because I lived across the road from Regent’s Park and there was the Regent’s Park Bomb, and I don’t remember thinking about this problem very much. So that’s all normalisation. I go to Lebanon a lot and it’s just been war and war and war. And it’s funny because you don’t think about it all day, but then sometimes there’s a big bang and suddenly everyone’s on edge. And it turns out it was some some opening of some garden somewhere that were firing, firing some sort of artillery thing to celebrate. But that sort of PTSD of of it.

You know, goes back suddenly. It does come back and. We live in a beautiful part of the world. Like Fermanagh is essentially the Lake District of Ireland and it is stunningly beautiful and that has just been emptied over the years. But Northern Ireland’s moved on. If we go more positive, you know, you know, it’s moved on massively and hopefully we continue to do that. There’s still the odd dinosaur in there who wants to keep harking back to the past, but we got to move forward and the scars have got to heal. And as a community, we’ve got to let things go, unfortunately. Or if we you know, otherwise we’re just polluting our kids and their kids. So I think it’s important that we got to keep, no matter how painful it is, we got to keep moving forward. And I understand that’s hugely difficult for for many, many families in Northern Ireland. But I also think we all are our next generation and the opportunity not to have that baggage.

James I spend quite a lot of time in Belfast in the last couple of years because we keep coming over for that many small make over course of us. And the the temperament of the Northern Irish seems to be sort of very self deprecating. Not not someone, not people who sort of shout out their their their sort of what’s great about them, sort of the opposite of kind of where I’m at right now, £1,000 down south. But in that environment, you’re a serial entrepreneur who entrepreneurs by their nature have to shout about what they’re doing. Are you an outlier compared to your peers in that sense?

Not Northern Ireland is full of people like me. And it is because you have to be you know, we don’t have chimney pots, you know, we don’t have masses of amount of population. And therefore there is innovative people and a not of businesses all over Northern Ireland. You know, if you look at Ireland as a whole, it’s the it’s the European leading medical device market, as I’m sure you’ll be aware of payment in your business. You know, and the side of Ireland, the innovation is incredible and that has been driven by governmental policies, but also because of the people that exist here generally, a very highly trained population, very good schools, like really good schools. So the education is is superb. And really what we have suffered from for many years is the dirty in a way the that is stopping and a lot of that’s been driven by cost of going to university in the UK versus staying in Ireland. And so I think we’re starting to see more people staying in house. An outlier amongst my friends, you know, a lot of people that I went to school with, lots of them are self-made business people. Lots of them have owned their own businesses at the time. Some have failed, some have been very successful. So no, I don’t think I’m an outlier in regards to that. Now.

Do you remember the first time you thought I was going to be a dentist?

Yeah, I do, actually. I was always going to be a vet, and I had absolutely no interest in the industry until I mess things up. So I at school loved biology, love geography, hated chemistry, and spent most of my time in chemistry. See, I never could hit the guy at the far side of the class with the what? I used to put the orange tube of the Bunsen burner onto the top and it made a very effective water pistol and it was amazingly accurate. And so I just masked in chemistry because I just couldn’t get on the subject. So unfortunately, I decided that I spent summers with vets. Very weird thing and rural part of Vermont. I suppose its normal enough and I always wanted to be a vet. So I guess the story as I got a D in chemistry the first time, so no veterinary school was going to accept me, although I would argue very strongly that it would make a good vet, but that wasn’t going to happen. So what what happened at that point was I remember sitting down panicking and I was going through clearing what can I get with two ears and the D what can I get with two ears and two.

A’s and what a combination.

Yeah, I know my dad. I was nearly signing up for marine biology. Like what? Where that came from? I have no idea. But remember my dad coming in and saying. Les, just hold on a second. You know, let’s not do anything Rush here. Typical of my dad. And he said, Why don’t you think about repeating your chemistry? So that’s what I did. I went to Belfast and my friends were going there from school to university, and I moved in with a few of them in the bottom of the Lisburn Road and unfortunately at that stage wasn’t mature enough to realise I had one year to sort myself out. So for the first six months I basically drank smokes, which is a wonderful drink from Northern Ireland. It’s a beer. We made Christmas trees out of the cans and I got another. Rd Okay, so at that point, at that point my mother and father extracted me from that and God bless them, they continued to pay their rent and move me in with my cousin Rodney, who had just started his accountancy career. So he was on down the road in Belfast. And, you know, I look back at Rodney still may account and a very dear friend, and he moved out of his bedroom, moved into a box room where the bed wasn’t long enough to cope with them. So he used to sleep with his feet up, you know, up against like this. And I got his bedroom and he said to me, If you don’t get a fucking falconer, he says, I’m brilliant. So I saw just the brilliant switched for me and I did every paper that ever existed in A-level chemistry.

And I got an A and came very close to the top band in Northern Ireland. So I switched it round and it was during that period that my mum suggested I think about dentistry. So I went and did some work experience with a dentist in Belfast. And the thing that struck me about that was the relationships between the patients and the dentist and that sort of thought, you know what, that appeals. I then went to see an orthodontist and then I gave the name of Henry Cassidy. You know, this is quite a while ago. No, but he ran a private orthodontic business. Beautiful. Ms. was so far ahead of its time. So he had four chairs, very American style. And then he had a consulting room. He was into bicycles. I liked bicycles. And I still remember the key moment for me was when he sat and he said, turn around to his nurse, and he said, 19. And I was wondering, what is he talking about? 19 And the nurse got up and plugged in 19 degrees into the air conditioning. And I just thought, Oh, that’s so cool, so cool. And then all the kids were set and playing with boys as he went round. So he just got up, put his gloves on, the gloves were setting, did his work, stood up, took his gloves off, went to the next chair and just went round the circle all day. And I thought, Oh, this is smart stuff. So at that stage I wanted to become an orthodontist and then grew to hate orthodontics. But that’s a good other story. So that’s when I realised I wanted to do dentistry at that point.

Either your parents involved in medical at all.

No, no. My mom is She taught special needs all her life. And my dad. My dad did lots of different things. So he he started in the military, much to his parents discussed. He left and then he went, became a sales person for oil. So he sold oil, distributed oil distribution. But that’s his whole that whole side. His father had an oil distribution business. He went and worked his and then his brother, he’s ten years older than Dad, took that business over, pretty much like going into too much detail. And Dad then ran the Enniskillen office. So he did that for many years and then he started his own oil distribution business. That didn’t go very well, but during that he bought a newsagents and we ran the newsagents as a family, all four of us. So he double jabbed, my mum, double jabbed, we went to school, worked on the shop, learnt how to chat to people, stocked the shelves, all that crack. And that was such a good thing for us, you know, when we look back and that the fun we had with that shop was absolutely brilliant. So we ran out and up, put us basically got us started in university and because my, my, my two sisters and me were all at one time, so I’m one of three, I’m in the middle. And yeah, so we all did that. And then he sold the shop. He then became a driving instructor and then he repaired dental offices. So you try and put that together. Make any sense?

The the entrepreneurial side of you are can he’s come from him.

Yeah it.

Has, it has to. Yeah. But me and Prav talk about shop. I mean you might have heard it before but but but I honestly I put the success of both Prav and his brother down to the relationships in that show. Yeah. Does that resonate with you?

Yeah, absolutely. And then we worked in a local hotel, and again, myself and my two sisters worked behind the bar. Pollen paint, half on the crack. And, you know, myself and my two sisters, there’s nobody that you could put us in a room to room with that we wouldn’t be prepared to have a conversation with. And I think, you know, part of my parents genius, if they had it, was that they in all the quiet confidence in us and that has worked out has been great for us as kids and adults moving forward from that, that that’s what they give us more than anything else. Like we were not a wealthy family by any means. I think we had two holidays and our time as one to France and one to Portugal. But we learned an ethic of work, I can tell you that. And we learned an ethic of how to deal with people and be fair with people. And I think I think that’s been good. Did you did you stick long shifts in James in the shop with with her late nights, with her weekends, cash and carry trips, that sort of thing. Weekends, you know, the newspapers. My dad got up every morning and done the newspaper to turn some days you were in before you went to school for an hour just to help out. You were in after school. You maybe come home from rugby training and you get off the bus at half sick. You did an hour on the shop and then you went home and then Dad would maybe come back up to lock up. And then the weekends, usually Sunday was your busy day with the newspapers. I knew to in to set it all up prior to people coming to church and chapel and then, you know, you in on a Saturday she’d go play rugby and then come back from rugby going into a couple of hours. So we just all mucked in really I suppose was the way it left the penny choos.

You’ve done a lot of work with Chris Barrow. You’ve done a lot of work with Chris Barrow, and I’ve heard him say, and he’s absolutely right, that sometimes when you’re hiring, if the person you’re hiring has got a history of family business, that’s a great thing because they understand the sacrifice that it takes to run a business.

I Yeah. You know, the guy that run anyway. Yeah, the guy that runs Quintus. There’s a guy called Ian and he’s an old school friend of mine. And Ian comes from family business, from rest, the restaurant trade. And, you know, these people can turn their hands down, I think, given their time, because it’s inbuilt that drive is just set within stone. And that’s not something that you can train somebody with. You know, we’ve all been there, we’ve all hired a few lemons along the way. But you know, those people that have got that core fight, you know, they’re worth their weight, these people.

So you then studied in Dundee?

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Explain to someone like me the nuances, the differences between Dundee people and Enniskillen people?

Not much, because half Enniskillen was there already.

For once, my generalisation would have been right.

Yes. Okay. Half of Northern Ireland was in Dundee when I was there. So that was a real big attraction. And I’ll tell you a really cracking story. So I was sitting in the restaurant and Dundee on my first night there with my dad not knowing anybody and who walks in through the door. But the guy that I had studied my repeat chemistry A-level with and Dundee Agave remarks live and he bloody walked in and I didn’t know that he was going to Dundee and the two of us lived together for five years. We bought a flat there. We sold the flat and you know, just such a small world. Dundee was a brilliant student city. It’s got a really good campus. It’s real good fun. There’s a really good social life to it. It’s very medical engineering related. They’ve got great facilities. So for me it was like a home from home payment. And on my floor there was 11 or 12 of a seven of us were from Northern Ireland.

Wow.

And so honestly, I was like driving up the road to Belfast in many ways. So yeah, and the Scots are great. I love the Scots, you know, the old Celtic natures. And so there so it was really I had a really good time in Dundee. Really good time. Yeah. Great fun. Just about got past it but yeah that’s, yeah. It was a good place to be.

Yeah. What we like. As a student, Dental student. What were you like?

Oh, and my my mission was just to pass. Okay. We didn’t want to exhale because exhaling usually took away from the party. So we just wanted to pass. And really, all I wanted to do was finish the five years and get out. I’m not overly academic. You give me something practical to do and show me how to do a practical. That’s the way my body and my brain works. But academia lies. Not really. I did well in orthodontics for me, actually, but then grew to detest. But yeah, I was an okay student. I would have been, you know, if there was a party. I was at the party and, you know, yeah, I left, but I left the good student life. Yeah, I used to drive the night bus because I was good fun. So I used to drive the main bus for the last two years and basically drove around with vomit flying up and down the back of the bus.

Not during the driving Payman.

So I was very well crash, that one was. The buggers were sitting in the back of the bus and there were, I was, there were reverse of me out on the course. I trusted them to reverse me out and I drove straight into a car and so that didn’t go down very well and various investigations have to be followed. But yeah, I drove the bus for two for two years and it was great fun, but that was just to make money, That was just to pay for the car that I’d just bought myself. And that didn’t pass the smell test and I had to sell. But was business always in the blood? Was it was going to happen as a dental student? Did you go into dentistry thinking, knowing.

Feeling.

That. Yeah.

This was.

About business. Always. There was no way I was going to work for anybody. I am totally I am a nightmare. And there’s no way it was ever going to happen, really. But I to give you an example. To give you an example. All right. End on DH. As you come to the end of your your fifth year and you’re getting ready for your vet places, it’s a bit like a bunfight around Scott and Dundee. Everybody’s going for the same practices. So I took a view. Let that classic who move my cheese our book, I took it. Where else can I look here? So I found what’s called the GPT scheme and Bristol. I think it was the first year that ever run and I got in my £250 junior to five with the back wheels up like this. And I drove to Bristol. It was a total death-trap, but I drove to Bristol with two other guys from my class who had identified the same loophole and we went down and we had jobs organised for two years, hospital and practice before any before the jobs were released in Dundee. So basically what happened? All the jobs, or at least everybody went mad, but we had our jobs sorted out and the GPT scheme and Bristol and that gives you an idea maybe how the brain works sometimes. And then I went because I didn’t want to stay there. I wanted to see what there’s more to life than Dundee.

So I then went to Bristol and I had I was really lucky, you know, you meet lucky people or you’re lucky and people that you meet at different times in your life, aren’t you? And I had a first year in vet with a wonderful young dentist called Jordan House, who I owe so much to in Rural Croft and the Practice in Stroud. And this practice, this was 2001. He had a Sarich machine. They did implants. You know, he was a young principal with an old partner. I was sitting at. I was sitting at patients, seeing him place implants, restoring implants all in that first year, doing some private work. In that first year, I had a really experienced nurse. It was brilliant. I had a really good launch pad, whereas a lot of my, my, my compatriots and when they went out, they did not get that launch pad. And then second year in the hospital, baptism of fire, you know, Max, fire department people phoning you up and you’re not having a clue what you’re doing, but you just have to get on with it. And, you know, I just I suppose I just did that. I just got on with and I learnt on the job, you know, the very first clinic I had in hospital, just to think that this actually happened. Sister Jones was her name, a real buxom sister, classic sister with her blue dress on, used to run around like this and go come up.

And you know, I looked about for, you know, I don’t look much older now, but then I looked and so she brought me in and me white coat and she said, This is your first clinic. And it was a sedation clinic. And I goes, But I have never done a van flown on anybody before. I’ve treated somebody who’s sedated, but I’ve never done. She goes, Well, you’ve got five, six patients. It was and it was to take out wisdom. And I said, I don’t have a clue what to do. So she said, That’s okay. We’ll just get you through it. And I remember her standing over me in my hand, the goodness, you know, putting in the first floor. But by God, I learnt, you know, you talk about a learning curve on that job and I loved that job and the consultants were fantastic. I was hungry to learn, I suppose, and I had a bit of chat, which always got me through the difficult situations. And after that I went I had a decision to make which was go home. My wife was also my she wasn’t a wife at that point, but so I knew who I married to. She was with me in England. She was got a job. She was a teacher at that stage. And I had a decision to make, which was, do I come back home? I don’t have a job or do I stay? And really, I was going to have to commit five years back, probably in June and practice.

And we just decided we were going to come home to Fermanagh. And I remember meeting Steve Booth. Steve Booth often tells the story of Steve Booth from Australia and head honcho on stream. And I met him in a pub and I told him what I was going to go back to Ireland. I wanted to use him and implants and that I was going to own the largest implant practice in Ireland. And he still goes, What the hell are you talking about? Bollocks. You know, he obviously doesn’t know what implant from one end to the other. But you know what? I went back to Ireland and we weren’t too far away from that after a couple of years. But, you know, that was the drive. That was what we wanted to do. I went back, worked in a practice, didn’t have a job when I went back. Sonia’s dad, who sold furniture, was down delivering furniture and a dentist house, said a son in law was coming back. He’s a dentist, No job. I should come on shore, Send them down to me. I’ll give them a job. Like no interview, none of that. And I just started the start of putting implants in that practice, redesigned all their brochures and logos, tried to bring them up to the, you know, the 20th century. And after 15 months, lay off and start a album. That was what happened.

James. Seems to me there’s a couple of parallels here between your your chemistry days and at one point you decide you’re going to go for it and then you’re 100% in and dental school. You’re saying you weren’t the type of student who was really interested. And yet two years after dental school, you’re placing implants or whatever, that that’s the kind of person you are that when you decide you’re going to do it, then you finally go and do it, right? Yeah, because when I think back to my own time in dental school, I was like, you didn’t didn’t, didn’t really participate properly. I was just trying to get through. And yet. You know, I didn’t want to do implants like that would be the last person who wanted to cut. What was it? When do you remember a time when you realised I want to be surgeon? Yeah, it’s a big step.

Yeah. That was Paul Stone, actually in university. And Paul Stone, very well known implant dentist, came and we had one lecture and implant dentistry and university. And I remember him coming in and lecture and I can, I could bring you to the spot that he stood in and talking about implants and I remember going, oh that’s, that’s really cool. Imagine just sticking these things and they actually stick the bone like, Holy moly, this is cool. And I do remember at that point, God, if I get out of this place, there’s a future in that thing there that he’s talking about. You know, that’s where the future is. You know, this thing about do and fell into that sounds much more interesting. And so that for me was the first penny that dropped. And then Payman coming out and seeing it done and practice and implants being integrated into normal dentistry, should we say that was a big thing as well. And then the third thing then was building the surgical skills and in the house job, you know, getting that confidence, you know, the confidence, you know, at the time I did that, you’re in theatre, you know, you were working in one half. The growth in the Senior Edge was working on the other half. And, you know, you were just getting exposed to things that you just wouldn’t get exposed to nowadays.

So, you know, my, my learning curve in surgery was really sharp and rapid, but it was done with consultant beside me. And, you know, I’m eternally grateful for that. And I think they seen in me somebody who really wanted to have a goal and wasn’t scared to have a go and wasn’t intimidated by the situation. And I think I took advantage of that because they were quite happy to let me have a go with things I probably I should never have touched. So that really settled for me the surgical side of things. And literally as soon as I landed back in Ireland, I always wanted to place implants, the very first implant I placed. Steve Booth was stand beside me. You know, that was as much of the mentoring that you got. And no, there was no mentoring, you know, it was just do your day, let’s just get on with this. So, so you know, could you get people will do it. No, but it’s so much more restrictive now in terms of how you get started. So, you know, the first thousand implants I placed, I was out knowing, you know, I was just having a go, really.

And James, in terms of in terms of the number of people who could put implants in compared to the number of patients who were up for implant treatment, were you much more in demand back then as a as an implant surgeon or because the market grows, doesn’t it, In both. Both markets grow.

Yeah. You have to remember where I live. So, you know, I live in the west of Ireland, probably the worst dental health anywhere in the UK and in fact could challenge probably most places in Europe. So we have a massive dental caries problem, tooth loss problem. There’s no shortage of work where I live. You know, when we open blew up or, you know, we were doing 300 to 450 implants a year in the back of new. You know, nobody everybody thought Jim Hummel had lost his marbles. What does he do? You know.

You’re right. It wasn’t Manchester or London or whatever.

What we did have been opportunistic. We had cross-border trade. So so we were based right on the border and Northern Ireland. There was a town called Black Lion across the street. So basically I could take a stone and just throw up and I would be in Republic of Ireland. So we had two currencies and we had a trend of people travelling from the south of Ireland to the north of Ireland to get their dentistry. So when we set ourselves up, we took advantage of that. That was a total and utter business decision. And then 2008 hit and the business fell off a cliff because the Celtic Tiger was shot dead. And our job in that time was then to reorganise and remodel the business for the Northern Trade, but also to make the people from the South realise that no, you weren’t coming for value or coming for experience and knowledge and expertise. And, and so we had to pivot and change our message very, very quickly around that 2008 period. And that actually taught us quite a lot of lessons over that stage because a lot of other practices suffered heavily and because the cross border trade dried up.

When you say your message, were you actively marketing back then as well?

I was on the radio. I was doing radio shows. You know, one of it we, Johnny, when he falls and smashes from tooth, you know, what do we do with that? And we were very specific about what we did. You know, Payman Blue Apple. We started out 2005, 2006. And that practice, I look back at that. I was really quite unique at that point. There was very few branded dental practices around. You know, we had a clear idea of what we were doing in terms of what we wanted to deliver, which was a customer service orientated business, not a clinical orientated business, but customer service. And we were six months, six months booked in advance, within a few months of opening the door, you know, it was just mental, mental, and, you know, we weren’t the cheapest. We never set out to be the cheapest we charge what we felt was a reasonable price would be provided, a brilliant service. And that was and that was led by saw my wife. You know, we had we were totally party London, party, London to the hilt, you know, clean toilets, all of those things.

And we just created a really good experience. And we I think at that point where we ahead of the game, I think we probably were. But, you know, the downside of that business then was that it then became something that started Eat US, you know, and we had a great ten years, you know, we absolutely loved our song was raised underneath the reception desk, really, But we had a wonderful time and we met some amazing people. And, you know, those patients come and see me and the clinic and. No, but I sort of distract from your question. The demand is still there because they’re just not that many people to place implants in the west of Ireland. And the numbers are going up all the time. So in terms of the patients who have got a demand for it, and that coupled with the fact that there’s very poor oral health and therefore a lot of adventurous patients, it’s it’s a sort of a it’s a honeypot really to a point. And so.

Within a couple of years, you.

Left that job and then you went to open your the Blue Apple practice and fully box within a short space of time. What were some of the struggles that you had? In Ronin managing. Oh, and in that business, what were the.

What would you consider the low.

Points to be during that journey? Did you hit rock bottom at any point? Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah. So we had a real blast. And then two years after we had just won an award, how do you remember? What’s an award that we got? And it was that item from Chris Barrow. And I said, Listen, Chris, we have started this. Our timing has been really good. We’ve done some basics, but we have absolutely no Scooby in terms of how to run dental practice. We didn’t know what accounts were. It was all up, the laughed where we make the money, where we not making money, what are we going to do? And that’s what we started working with Chris. And then he used to come and spend a night in our house every quarter. Listen to us, argue in the morning time and then try and get ourselves back on track. And he was great. I think where the challenge was Prav was that clinical dentistry at that level as challenging, trying to provide that level of service all the time is challenging. And we ran out of steam, but we didn’t. We ran out of steam. Ten years down the line. So I remember the the lowest point. The lowest point was when I went up to Sonya’s office. I sat on the floor and I burst into tears and I said, Fuck where we have to get out of this business.

This is killing us. This is killing us. You know, we the kids, we had two kids. We had the business just eat us alive and try and maintain it at that level. And for me and Sonia and I think less than that level is not acceptable. So, you know, it started to eat us from the inside. And it was at that point I used to go in and, you know, I used to get start to get cross with patients, but not with the patient. That was me. Cross with staff. Why are we getting cross from my staff? My staff are lovely. What am I doing here? And, you know, when you look back on that time, you go the warning signs were there. And at that stage when I went into that chair and I looked and I worked in a beautiful surgery that I had designed myself, you know, most people would go, What are you talking about, James? You’ve got this lovely look. And I go, and I go, If I have to sit in this chair one more fucking day, I’m going to go and see them looking out the same window, looking at the same computer. And that was when I decided to sell it.

It was blown out. James Right.

Yeah. Total burnout. Total burnout, Yeah. When?

When you said it was killing you.

Are you talking.

Work.

Family, that work life balance, that dynamic coming home, being pissed off, not being the James or the husband, that you should be the father that you should be? Or was it just all centred at work? Well, try and just just sort of illustrate that to me in terms of what was going on at the time. Yeah. So you were being a rubbish husband, you are giving time to your kids and I was in the middle of doing triathlons and Ironman, you know, cycling from North, the most northerly point in Ireland, the most southerly point cycle. And John O’Groats to Land’s End, you know, you name it, I was stuck in the middle of it. And, you know, all of those things combined just left us in a situation where it’s just not a manageable proposition and we. We at that point, I suppose we even were thinking about expanding the practice. We bought the building next door. You know, it was a nice, profitable business, but it just got to the point where the upside of it didn’t outweigh the downside of it. And that for me was was the point where I said, this business will be sold. Now, Sonia, at that stage wasn’t there in her head. She just wasn’t at that point. But I had been, I suppose, building to that for probably 12 months because I could I stopped enjoying what I was doing. And, you know, that’s not a good place to be when you’re a dentist. And at that point, I could have walked away from clinical dentistry. No bother at all. No bother. And so the process of selling it.

James, did you did you sell it with the ability to walk away or tie in or what was the what was the whole narrative behind that? Because to me, it seems like you want to at this stage hand the keys over, walk away. I’m done. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I was in Dubai and actually Khan O’Brien, who, you know, works with me and introduced me to chop from Oasis, often named Julian. And Julian was looking to purchase a private implant practice and had heard about us. So he said, I’m going to buy your practice. And I said, No, you’re not. He goes, I am. He says, Right, as long as the money’s right, let’s get the deal done. And he came and seen me not long after I was in Dubai. And it took us a year to do the deal. It was a three year earnout. And what’s really you know, they I probably couldn’t have walked away from it. I didn’t want to, I suppose maybe at that stage, because Sonia still wanted to be there for a period of time. I felt bad with staff and all of those things, she said. Less than a three year earnout. And I remember Chris Biro telling me, and probably one of the most accurate things I’ve ever been told. He said, GM is your three year earnout is going to be like you’re running a triathlon. He said the first year is going to be like the swim. You’ll finish, you’ll get out of the water and you’ll go, Oh, that was actually quite nice.

I quite enjoyed that and I am looking forward to getting on to the bike. Second year is like the bike. By the end of the bike you’re ready to get off it and your goal and holy shit, and I have to do the run. And really the third year was horrific, absolutely horrific. I hated every minute of it, but I’m a stubborn bugger and I wasn’t going to stop. And I grew the business. We actually grew the business over those three years despite lots of increased interference. Because basically what I said to them, Prav was you said, I’ll sell you the business, but leave me alone for three years and you’ll get your money and I’ll get my money. But don’t interfere because I know this business and I know how it works. I know how we can continue to generate the high new patient numbers, high value of treatment. We had very high conversion levels, and I know I can do that. And basically I just switched my emails off after about six months and ignored everything that ever came in from them. I didn’t interact with them. I just got on with the job, which was let’s get the patients and less treat them, less, maintain the level of customer service and just keep going that way. And Sonya left after 18 months. She couldn’t stick it anymore. And I always joke with her that she abandoned me in the hour of need. But yeah, so I was left there and we seen it out. And after that it was six months off to recover.

Let’s talk about the highs of that business, too, because sometimes, you know, you talk about burnout, but burnout happens after the sort of the the thing the thing that’s amazing becomes normal. But the acceleration, when you go from opening a practice, not knowing exactly for sure whether it’s going to work or not, and then it works and you’re making loads of money. And give me give me give me some of the best times when what comes to mind when I say the best times of that, that period.

Probably the best times were the relationship with patients. You know, that was old was the thing that gave me the buzz. You know, people talk about, oh, the big reveal. That wasn’t what it was about for me. It was genuinely a patient coming in within 30 minutes. I would have them interviewed to death. They would know everything about them, their families, what their kids did, where they hung out, you know, all of that stuff. And for me it was that relationship building that I really, really enjoyed. And when you’re in a good mindset and a good mainframe, then that’s really easy thing to do. And therefore, I don’t think we ever sold a treatment. It was just listening to the patient and probably one of the pivotal things and it was Larry Brown who we named our centre after Larry Dental technician, probably one of life’s kindest, most generous souls ever. And we still miss him every day. He used to come to my practice and pretty much on a monthly basis, and we used to treat patients together. And that was always the highlight, was when Larry came into the practice and working together with him for the benefit of the patients. It was just such a total pleasure. And we did that for years. Larry used to come to our house. He basically helped us raise our kids. And, you know, he taught me so much about people and life and just being good and getting emotional. No talk of it. But, you know, he was a he was an amazing guy. And when he stopped coming, he just EJ, I think I probably lost a lot of them. Jewel there. Mm hmm.

You know, it’s funny. Those relationships at work sometimes. I mean, that’s a very personal relationship, right? Yeah. So someone. Someone that you were actually next to. But now you’ve been running these distribution businesses, and you’ll find sometimes it’s years and years of relationship with someone from some some supplier. And then this supplier will leave that company, and then you’ll still be in touch with that person and, you know, different person will come along. It’s a beautiful thing. But yeah, obviously this is a bit deeper. You named your practice after him. Wonderful one.

Yeah. Yeah. Larry was a it was a he was a very special man. And actually, it’s, you know, the I think the thing that he taught me more than anything was was the power of empathy. And he used to say one of his great lines was James. When a patient comes in and sits in your chair, they will tell you everything that you need to know. They will tell you their problems, but they will also tell you how to put it right. Now, James, you just need to shut the fuck up and listen. And that’s what he used to say to me. And, you know, just that lesson. He saw he was so right. You know, we as dentists want to get them in the chair and tell them everything that’s wrong with them without listening or not. Very good listeners. And I think you taught the lesson. And just that humility of that type of character was was a very special relationship. So I think, you know, as a high anytime Larry was in the building, it was a hey, the awards, it was a high. So we were we were in for awards at the very start of the awards before the coup. And that was a high hiring. We had a brilliant staff who just loved Blue Apple and everything about it. That was a hey and then treating patients and seeing their families coming in. And a lot of what we did was personal recommendation. It’s the best market I’ve had. Marketing expert as yourself. But for us, that was the best marketing that we did. Without question, price marketing we treated. And I think what we ended up doing was treating patients that we liked and we got the patients that ultimately I hope that we deserved that came into the practice because of the type of experience that we offered. So listen, Payman, don’t get me wrong. No, there were way more highs in that business than there were lows.

Yeah, which is why I ask the question. I don’t want it to sound like it was just not business.

Know, Demonstrate has been very good to us and our business was just 95% of the time. A pleasure to run. It was hard work. It was graft. It was a big risk at the time. I still remember buying the building. I was in the toilet in a restaurant. And so and you had given me a £90,000 limit on the building and it had gone beyond 90. And we were over in England and I was up in the toilet and the estate agent was phoning me and he was saying this 92 and I got, I got 93. And then he came back. And before I goes, I remember looking out the window and seeing Sonja Dean and where she was in a beer garden at the bottom. And I goes back and go for 95 and we got it. And then I have to go down and tell. So I knew we’d got it, but we got it for 95. So yeah, yeah, there’s lots of stories about that business. But yeah, that was good. That was good.

Then he took six months. What did you do?

And. A lot of it was spent on the lake in a boat. Probably drinking too much beer and just spent time. The. De-stressing with the kids, and it was actually a lovely time. My wife at that point, Sonia, hadn’t worked in the business. And then she continued not to work in the business for another three or four years after that. And life was really good, but I got bored and we couldn’t test Dental was still progressing and still going forward. It had moved from that point from being a handpiece repair business, which I told you my dad had decided to do, and a stroke of madness. And we had at that point went on to we were distributing the event and at that stage and just starting and I had just employed Ian and that business was going on. So it was an interest for me. But the brain was working and I was going, What’s this 3D printing thing? All, all of it. And I was quite intrigued by it. But what I couldn’t find in Europe or anywhere at all, for that matter, close by, was somewhere that I could go and find out about 3D printing. So I ended up going to the States to a course run by Auguste Oliveira, and I’m sure you’ve heard of, and that was a printing party.

It was called, I remember. But the reason I went was because all the printing companies were there. And so I wanted in my head I was going printing, distribution, printing, manufacturing. Where could we fit in here? Obviously, understanding that guided surgery, all of those things in my head. So when I went there, it happened to be in Rodanthe Laboratory, which is where crew is manufactured. And after the first day I discovered a table down at the back of the of the lecture room with these metal gate surgical guides. And there was a bit intrigued by the second day I started to become more interested in the guards than it was in the actual printing lectures. And on the day three I got a private tour because I just had the man gaze tortured in the back. So I’ve got a bit of a private tour around the lab. And I remember I still remember the feeling of walking into this lab, you know, almost 200 odd technicians at that point, purpose built building, just mind boggling, mind boggling. And Alan, it was a family run business by the Kawasaki family. And there was a chap called Alan Banks, and Alan showed me around. And I said, Alan, listen, you know, I’m having issues with full artwork that I’ve done.

I can see there’s something in this, what you’re doing, Can I do a kiss? And he said, No. And I said, Why not? And he said, Because we don’t do it out of the USA. I says, Well, that’s stupid. Let let me do a kiss. And he said, No, I don’t think I can. And I said, Well, we need to speak to somebody to try and make this happen. And so the next day was the last day of the course. I went back in and I said, Doll. And again, I hunted them down and I said, Alan, listen, I’ve been really thinking about this. I need to do a case of this. So he says, the only person will make that decision is BJ, who’s the owner of the business. So I then went and got introduced to BJ Koskie, and between him and Alan, they decided that they would let me do a kiss. So at that stage it hadn’t been the people done in Canada and the States that maybe done about 8000 arches. So it was reasonably well dialled in at that point. And I came back and at that stage I set up a peripatetic implant business.

So I went around, set up about eight or nine practices it practising, it was around Ireland where I went and did peripatetic implants because that’s what I thought I was going to do for the foreseeable future. And then one of those practices is in Enniskillen. We did the first groom case outside of the US A. And I did it with my mobile phone beside me and Allen on the mobile phone telling me what to do. So probably not the most scientific way to do this, to do the first kiss, but it was done in two and one half hours. And I thought, you know, there’s some there’s really something in this. So I did a few more cases and kept in contact with the guys in the States. And this was 2018. And then a few more cases got a little bit slicker at it, started to see some of the challenges that it had. And it only at that point, then maybe it was 2019, then it became started to become a commercial conversation. So at that stage we got distribution for a printer called Invasion Tech, which started, of course, three. And in my head it was going to be a digital based business selling Android scanners and printers and all of that.

And had you invested lots of cash at this point? Most of no. Now, how are you getting these these distributions where you like having to buy minimum order quantities and distribute some of that?

It’s called chat.

Shopkeeper Talk.

Shopkeeper Talk.

Nice.

Just don’t just don’t come see your office. But I promise you.

Tell me this before you go on. Before. Before the story goes on. Explain the difference. What was the difference between this chrome technique and guided surgery?

So what I was doing, which is what most most people do when they unfurl artwork, is that they either don’t plan it, which is what I was pretty much doing, or be the planet analogue. They made it a CT scan, but then they have analogue models. They maybe make an analogue. I’m going to say guide, but there are certain parameters that we initially that we should stick to and we’re doing this type of work. And so the problems that I was seeing were what are called transmission line problems where we have manage the smile zone correctly, breakages of the provisional and the final bridges, because we hadn’t given enough restorative of space and implant positioning, not being very good. So when we combined all of that, plus the fact the difficulty of getting the technician to come to where I was to do the technical work and the length of time. So it was basically a whole day on a practice to do a kiss. So it wasn’t very economical. It was bloody stressful. And we were starting to have problems three or four years down the line. And so it was that that was then putting me off doing any more full arch, immediate work. There was not an issue of the implant sticking to the bone. It wasn’t an issue in terms of demand in the market, but I could see that there was problems there. And so what the system does is basically systemise the record, right from the rector, taking the patient, coming in through the door, right the way to your very final restoration.

Every stage, a system that has a unique system, there is no other system just like it, to basically create this pathway to take you all the way through to the end. And the whole idea is to improve accuracy of implants, to reduce risks, to reduce problems, and to give you increased predictability. That’s pretty much what Chrome does. And that’s then what I started to see from a clinical perspective. So I went back to the States and I said, I want distribution for this. Can I get distribution? No way. Who are you to do distribution for this? And I said, Well, this is my plan. I have a plan mapped out in my head. It’s going to be based around education. We’re going to train people on their teams how to use this product. And I thought, right, I need to get mixes up. So I started getting more and more cases on them about start to get friends to do some cases. So it wasn’t really a commercial entity at that stage. And then in 2000, DA 2020, as we entered into COVID, I had, I suppose, that opportunity to have a conversation with Ken O’Brien, who I knew was leaving as MD of Bayer. And I thought, okay, Mab can be in Northern Ireland. He’s a commercial experience that I don’t have. And a chat again persuaded them to come on board to a business that didn’t really exist.

And so off we went and we he was there for two months. And then COVID hit me up the shop for 12 months. So I still blame him for COVID. So we did that. We had to shut the business and then we started again in 2021. During COVID, we bought the centre because at that point I was you talked about all in earlier on and actually he hit the nail on the head. For me it was all we were doing this or we weren’t doing this. And I decided, in fact, you know, I have a pension, a pension pot there. I reinvested in this building, bought the building, renovated it, and had a vision in my head that this was going to be a digital teaching centre, which is what it is, and that we would close all the businesses and get a lab to manufacture the product. So I suppose I jumped ahead a little bit, but I could see where it was going to go and understanding what was happening in the States where I have very good relationships now. And so we have now done 450 arches in the UK over the last couple of years, and we dominate that gate fully, fully gated market. And we have trained just shy of 150 dentists in our centre on that technique. We have had we’ve just had one of the big UK corporates in our building for a private course.

The fact that we can offer customisation to these big groups is a major push for us this year and because of somebody doing a full arch in Aberdeen and somebody is doing one in London, the process is the same because it’s totally systemised and I know that we can. The bet that we’re good at is the education. I think we’re good at the education. We know how to train people. To give you an example, one of our customers did 52 arches last year, and when he starts racking that into his EBITDA, that’s basically out of £4 million with the value to his practice. So if you do so. So this is a very powerful tool you can on an average and I’m not talking about the clinics, you do a lot of this type of work that’s a slightly different market. But I’m talking to people who do one or two arches a month. You know, we can reduce their chair site time by 66% in terms of the entire process. So I was approached by a practice in London who wants to increase from 12 arches to 52 arches in the year. That’s 40 arches doing a conveyance D that’s 90 chair side is that they have to find 90 chairs. I guess that’s not happening in the busy practice unless you put in more chairs and then you have to find more dentists. But with Chrome you can do it on 30 it. There’s.

So why is it so much quicker, though? Because you don’t have to worry about it. Systemised.

Start-up stage is probably the biggest. So surgical it keeps you on the tracks and surgery on it helps you. I can do most of the cases in about 2 hours from from local anaesthetic to the patient walking out with a provision of bridge. No need for a technician. So the conversion is about ten. That’s what it takes to do the conversion. But the big saving is when you come to do the final bridge, you can do that on two appointments. So you don’t need to go through the four or five steps that most people go through in their final bridge. So you save a lot of time in that final restoration. So for four practices doing this type of work, there is significant savings to be made. So on average, out about £1,000 tier net, I already have come down cruel move or conventional, even though the chrome increases the creases your your front costs a little bit, but not a huge amount.

James I work with quite a.

Few implant surgeons and still yet despite this conversation.

We’ve had. I really want to distil.

Exactly why it is who.

We all work.

For and.

The service and the benefits, because the.

Product and the name is popping up everywhere. Whether you go to a trade show, whether you speak to an implant then is to just started using it and it’s blowing his mind or whatever. I guess a lot of these a lot a lot of these dentists who do fall out to implant dentistry, you have to excuse me. I’m not I’m not a dentist and I’m not and I never took an implant in anyone’s head. But the general process that I understand it from from from my perspective is that a patient comes in, they have the consultation, you do the plan. Some people use different implant systems. Some people have like different guided surgery systems. Some people have like a stent made that goes over the over the gums, like drill holes, basically, you know, paint by numbers kind of job, you know, where to sit the drill and it’s going to be safe and the angle and the depth and all of that. And then come to the day you’ve got an on site or a technician on site who’s converting a denture that takes a long time adjustments to that. And then finally they cobble it all together. And after quite a lot of adjusting, they get they fit. The provisional.

Patient goes comes back six.

Months later, three months later or whatever it is. And then then, then they fit the final bridge. What want to wrap my head around is what is your is is it a lab service? Is it a stent? Is it both? Do you produce the provisional and the and the guided thing is talk me through that, knowing what I’ve just said and excuse.

Me if I’ve got any of that detail.

Wrong, but I just want to compare that to to what it is that Chrome does. Yeah. So? So first of all, it’s guided, fully guided search. It’s an open system. It can be used with any implant system that has a gate kit. So that’s the first thing. There’s no limitation in terms of the implant that you use. The very first part of the system is data collection. So we need three elements of data and we call it the tripod of data. These are photographs, CBC, TV impressions, or iOS. So once that so we ask each different type of case, we ask for very slightly different records, but they follow that pattern of that tripod. We then take that information and we do what we call a preliminary evaluation of it. And the reason we do that is because it has to be about the quality of the information going into the system. So if it’s not good, seven out of ten cases stop at that point because the CBC is incorrect. There’s movement in it. There’s bits of a cut-off. The impressions are shit. The iOS is rubbish, the photographs are rubbish. There’s something wrong with the data. So we stop it at that point. And until the data is correct, the case cannot go forward. And that is a learning curve in itself because dentists don’t really like being told that the information that they’ve sent in isn’t good enough.

And that’s just one thing that we have to be open and honest with them about, because what we put in is what we’re going to get out. Guided surgery is computer generated. Although a human is doing it, it still has to be very accurate at the start. So that’s the first step. So we’re systematising the record, taking the second. But then what happens is then it is then goes through internal planning process on planning software and the dentist is called to a planning meeting. And in that planning meeting they sit with the planner and these are dentists, CTS, technicians. Some of them are digital planners. These guys are planning maybe 50 or 60 arches a week. They know their onions. They really understand what’s going on. And what they do is they go totally from their start-ups They say, okay, this is our point. This is where we want our teeth to be. This is our bait. This is our smile. This is transition. This is how much space we need for the type of bridge you’re going to make. And then they work back and place all the implants digitally. And you start as a dentist and you see all of this happening in front of you and you input. Because ultimately, as the dentist, you are having the final say on what happens, but the planner will guide you. So it’s.

Over like a zoom call.

Or. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it takes about 40 minutes for your first couple of cases per hour. Once you’re up and running, take time because the planner gets to know what you want. And then from that, then the case comes back to us and an STL files. We then manufacture that in-house. And what we’re manufacturing is a series of stacked surgical gates. So the guy that invented crew owns the patent for stacked and sequential pinned games. So there are two slate, different slate nuances in terms of types of guide, but basically strowman’s mail in the box. He owns the patent that they use. So this guy is a very clever guy. J Watson All right. And basically they’re going to start suing everybody who’s trying to copy them and everybody has to end up in. Now, that’s just the way is. And so what happens then is that the guys are physically we print and manufacture everything in house. We assembly it on or assemble it on models, and then we ship that out. And then that box, you’ve got your provisional bridge, you’ve got all your surgical gates, you’ve got what’s called a surge map, which is a summary of your plan that you stick up on the wall that you can follow. You’ve got maps to organise, your implants, your components, your temporary cylinders. We email the implant company. They know what implants you need to order. They send it out in a box. So basically we’re trying to systemise the planning and the organisation prior to surgery and then you go to surgery and then you follow the process.

Now you get clinical teaching from me. I go to the first case clinically pretty much have been to them all and early in the UK, so that’s a lot of you turn up at the practice. I go to the practice because I want people to have a good experience. What I don’t want people to do is go, Oh, it’s a load of rubbish. It doesn’t work. I know it works because I’ve done nearly 100 cases. All right, I know it works, but you got to follow the system. And if you then follow the system surgically. So what we’re doing is we’re systematising every step of your surgery. And at the end of surgery, you pick up the pre med provisional bridge. Your nurse converts in about 10 minutes. No technician required. You screw it into the marathon and you also. Do what’s called take a copy of that call the rapid appliance, that rapid appliance, and becomes your conversion for your final bridge three months later, which is just two points. So we’re estimating the surgery, we’re estimating your provisional stage, and we’re also estimating your final restoration. That’s what makes it unique. There’s no other system like it. And so what we can do is we can reduce all of your appointments down to about five. From start to finish.

And just a couple of quick questions on that piece.

So the bridge that you produce, does the dentist have choice of material? Aesthetics, fully print. Yet printed printed on on our printers in high speed and invasion tech. I use a print material called Flex era and America. They use car but use a product called Lucid. These products are very similar, but it’s a printed bridge. The final bridge that they get is full arch. Yeah, we do all that for a fixed price of 4995. And that covers everything right through to your final bridge, no matter if you’re placing three implants or seven.

£4,995.

Yeah. Including your final bridge.

So that you on. On, on your end. On your end. How many people did you say you have?

So. Oh. Working. So we have a team across in chorus. We have a team of nine.

That includes the planners.

Most of the planners are still in the States.

Oh, I see.

So we have technicians, we have technicians and admin and this and that for 995. Just just to put.

That into perspective, James.

What would they practice expect to pay? A lab or a lab technician service for that piece? If we’re going to compare apples with apples, which was important. Yeah. Your final bridge. Your final zirconia bridge. Most labs are going to charge you anything between two and a half thousand and £4,000 for a full arch average, possibly plus components. That’s the first part. The second. But to get a technician to see you, you’re probably going to be charged a thousand quid. Yeah, it’s going to be maybe 1200, depending on the job, plus the temporary bridge that they bring with them, which is usually just a denture. So maybe 300 quid plus initial bit of planning in the lab. So the way it works out is that doing a conventionally when you add it all up and go to the final bridge with an average price of about £3,000 for a final bridge is not awfully far away from the crown price. No prices, maybe a bit more. But then if you build in your Ayers chair site, time saving. So an average we’re saving 66.8, then that’s where you start to see your savings. Plus, I’m going to say it, you get your implants in the right place, you’re going to have an easier restoration period. You know, I’ve had technicians in our course. They’re pulling their hair out. These guys are pulling their hair out, solving dental problems. But you’ll get me go and I get a surgery.

But they’re solving dentist problems all the time because most implants that are placed in the UK aren’t in the right place. They’re certainly not in the ideal place. Yeah. Yeah. So as a profession, as a profession, we don’t plan our cases particularly well. And so let’s take Chrome aside for a second and let’s just look at normal gated surgery. Gated surgery has two main advantages. One is that it forces you to plan. That’s a good thing because you have to plan your cases. And secondly, it helps you put the implant in the best possible position for what you’re going to put on at the end. So it forces you to plan with the and and say, you know what, the fine restoration in the mind. And well, if we look if you speak to a lot of technicians, this is a stat that Larry gave me about 15 years ago, 70% of the implants came across his desk and his lab were in the wrong or less than ideal place. Now, I’ve spoken to quite a lot of technicians and they say that that number is not changing as the number of implants are going up. We got to ask ourselves a question as a profession, what are we training? How are we training dentists to put implants? And if that number is not going down. Okay on the way that you get that number two number, Don’t you force people to plan and you force them to use a guard because at least they’re going to be on the play Plain Park.

I remember Larry telling me when I started in 2000 and 3004 with him, GM’s I’m not restoring any of your implants unless you use a surgical gate. Last he told me back then, because he says, I’m not I’m not picking up your shit. Because that’s what technicians do and technicians are to plate. Larry was a great voice for technicians. You know what technicians? Typically what happens is that they’ll get working and they’ll phone the dentist and they’ll say, Well, what do you expect me to do with this? And the dentist will tell them, Do your best. And that’s got to be one of the common phrases between a dentist and a dental technician is do your best. Do your best that are out there managing the complications that exist from poor implant placement. So we’ve got to be realistic as a profession. I would argue quite strongly that what we’re teaching at the minute and implant dentistry, we’re teaching the surgical principles which is lifting flaps and managing soft tissue, all really good, important fundamental things. But the bit we’re missing is to make sure that we put it in the right place. If we put it in the right place, we will reduce our surgical complications and we will reduce our risk of complications. That’s the position. And that’s where guided surgery fits.

Not to mention not to mention that when you know it’s going to go in the right place, you can hand on heart, sell it. You know, you can you can sell it at a higher price. You can when you’re doing this kind of work where it’s full arch, it’s a complicated work. And if if there’s something that’s better that makes it more predictable health or an extra £1,000 or whatever it is, you would 100% do it. Because what I’m interested in is, does this go wrong, too?

I think it’s a really good question. Payment is like anything, you know, does, does and like know guided surgery. The first question I would ask is, does no one guided surgical? I can tell you just told you 70% of them. All right. So, you know, we have there’s this thing. All right? You have to do a guided. A term I really detest. I actually think that’s the illusory truth. Truth? The fact, you know, we say this thing you have to do a brain guided before you do it. Guided. And it’s just become a mantra in dentistry. It’s a load of tosh. All right. People aren’t really thinking when they say that. And I know that that’s a controversial statement, but I really do care because the challenge that I have there is that. Just because you use a gauge, you don’t turn your brain off. That’s a misnomer. That’s number one. Number two, you still have to have the same surgical skills when you use a guide as you do without a guide. It’s still the same fundamentals of surgery. So I’m not advocating flawless guided surgery. That’s a myth. Get it out of your head. All right. I still teach you left to flap. You still see what you’re doing? I’m using this guide to do is put you on the playing field. All right. That’s it. We’re not promising any more. We’re not promising any less. All right.

It’s not a it’s not a magic tool. It’s not a magic tool to avoid the basic surgical skills that you require. But what I see is what happens if something goes wrong during normal non guided surgery. What do you have to do? You have to problem solve. All right. What happens if something goes wrong during a guided surgery protocol? What do you do? You have to problem solve. It’s no different. So one shouldn’t exist in isolation of the other. They actually should both be coming together because there’s massive advantages to both to work together. So we got to stop thinking about these two camps where somebody goes, I’m only doing BrainGate or I’m only doing that, and never the twain should meet. That’s a major mistake in the profession, I think, going forward, because look at the numbers. All right. The numbers tell us that we’re not doing it particularly well. Okay, We’re not getting this right for a large proportion of our patients. And I had a technician on our roadshow who just is a he’s just like, you know, he’s really about to pull his hair out with a stuff because he feels that he can’t say it to the dentist because he doesn’t want to lose a customer. And all the companies are manufacturing weird and wonderful things to try to overcome. Poor implant position. Guys, let’s just put it in the right place to start.

Yeah. What’s the total?

That’s my message.

What’s the total Like that Tam? Total addressable market. How many, how many full arch cases are happening and what percentage of that do you want to get? I mean.

I don’t answer that question as I actually do know Payman. That’s a very hard figure to out because, you know, you can try and pull it out of some of the implant companies, but it’s a challenge. I honestly don’t know what the figure is. So we deal with between 50, probably 50 live cases in our lab every every month. So it’s live at the moment in the States that are probably with between 305 hundred every month. So you have to maybe look at the UK market versus the size of the US market and try and figure out what what the middle ground there is. But I think probably in the UK we could easily double that market without any great stretch. But a could well be bigger than that. I find it a very difficult thing to pinpoint, but one thing we would say is that the large market is growing. You know, again, you only have to look at what the company is concentrating on and also the fact that they’re also concentrated guided surgery. The companies understand this. They’re not so.

And is this not linked at all to stress and near-death? Separate.

Chrome is Chrome. As an individual product, we will use with any implant system that has a gated kit. And to be fair, to be fair to you. Australian and New Zealand actually there really started to click in that. That’s a very powerful product and it’s it’s a product that helps their customers and reduces problems. And they also understand that we that we educate on, I think well, so they are starting to know companies are just implant companies are just some of them are a bit worried about the fact that that I say on the other hand on the other side but I can say on the unit in the UK, you know, Chrome for me is always going to be a bigger market than our market by a long, long way. So our job is not to be a threat to anybody. And I know that Chrome helps sell implants, so implant companies really should see it as a bonus. And you know, the other thing is that the experience here so there’s nearly 18,000 cases done, though, at a mammoth amount of experience that these guys have that sit behind us. And we’re very lucky I call them. It’s like having a back office team. You know, these guys are unbelievable at what they do and there’s new stuff coming out payment all the time. They are a company that are very open to improvements. They’re they’re an open door policy pretty much. You can go and see them and speak to them and that’s something they like and it’s a family run business.

All right. Let’s talk about on this show. We’d like to talk about errors. Clinical errors. What comes to mind when I say clinical errors.

Yeah. So one of the scariest ones that has happened to me was I was doing an implant lower left six on a very nice gentleman from Galway direction was and I dropped the screwdriver and the screwdriver disappeared. And. He started coughing after he had swallowed, I presume did swallow that, I suppose, at that stage. But obviously the fear is that it goes into the right problem because his daughter was a solicitor and as all this happens. So I remember having to set them up, abort the surgery, stitch him up from the hospital and said, listen, you know, this is what’s happened for me locally. And thinking to myself at dinner stomach, you know, this in the stomach, it’s no big problem. And driving them into A&E myself and having a chest X-ray and then a consultant who I knew wagged me over with a big smile on his face, telling me it was on the right bronchus. And here we had a strowman screwdriver. Sharp thing that’s not small lodged in this gentleman’s right bronchus. So he then had to be transferred to Belfast City Hospital in an ambulance, which is about an hour and a half and 45 minutes from here. To get it removed. And I it was a margin and a big scar on his chest getting him to get it out. And I still remember the journey that the next morning driving up to go and see him and see his family, which I’d obviously kept in contact with that evening, thankfully, finding out that he had been able to get it removed and orally. And they’ve been able to fish it out. So that probably for me was one of the scariest things that have happened from a clinical perspective.

What happened, anything after that? Any recourse for no patient?

I’m going to go back to rapport and relationship building. You know, the situation. We handled it as well as we possibly could handle it. We did everything we needed to do. We kept everybody informed. We had a conversation with his family. We explained exactly what was happening.

Things changed. When I say when I say error, I feel like there was no errors in that.

Do you not? Well, I think there was an error because it didn’t have flow. Stayed right in the blood.

Oh, there you go. Good, good, good, good.

You know, and even to this day, sometimes just don’t forget to do it. But yeah, so that. That for me, that was me. I mean, there you have those consequences where somebody have to go to bloody hospital to have a job.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But error, error errors and when you reflect you think I would have done that differently man. Out the screwdriver. Floss for the scooter. Yeah. Give me one more, man. Cue. One more.

Man. Let me see. Yeah. So another big one was we went through a period of using and the early days of zirconia. So this was actually a really stressful period for myself and Larry. Larry had been involved in some of the early work with streaming under. And so we were doing loads of it and hammered did absolutely loads of it. We were doing large restorations in it and it was all not monolithic at that stage. It was a base with veneered ceramic over the top. And almost every one of them fractured.

And how long after you shooting them?

Probably about 2 to 2 and a half years, even earlier in a lot of instances. So we had and I mean, we had hundreds of these.

Oh, so you suddenly you’re thinking they’re all going to come back.

I’m they they bloody well nearly did. So the hours that I spent cutting zirconia off. And Larry, God bless them, replaced every single one of them. And I don’t think he was ever funded by a Stroman. But we remitted every single case at our expense. I give the clinical time. He gave the technical time. And I remember that period being horrendously stressful. You were waiting for the phone call every day to say, GM’s better. Two beautiful cranes from me and know the fractured. And we were just like, Oh, not another one. And yeah, so I was actually a really horrible.

That’s a biggie.

It was a big that cost a lot of money.

Also, Prav, you have no idea you’re drilling Serco Serco now. Yes. It’s like it just doesn’t. It’s so hard. It’s impossible to get the damn thing off. Yeah.

Yeah. So that when I look back, I tell that story to a lot of people.

That’s one of the worst I’ve heard.

Yeah, that was a really horrible, horrible period. Thanks for that actually pay. Thanks for. You know, I appreciate.

It. We should we should give a medal. A medal, shouldn’t we?

Do I win that award then?

Yeah. You’re definitely in the running for that one, man. What a nightmare. Patient of the patient. And did any of those go? Did anyone like a patient get pissed off or. No, Your rapport. So good. Oh, good, good. Tell us that story.

Good people. Common people. Come on and tell me. You told me this was the best thing since sliced bread. What? Why the hell is it broken? You know, I’m no back. Especially when you had patients that maybe had breakages at different times. So, you know, they had one repair that redid the crown and then you had another one maybe in a few months time, and they started to get annoyed. So.

So did you level with the patients and tell them, look, this is a problem we’re having?

What else did? Of course.

She did. No, it’s a problem we’re having across lots of nations.

It’s a problem. You’re not the only one that’s come in the door with this.

Oh, really?

Our. Our. What we are doing as a team is we’re putting them right because we feel there’s an inherent problem with the material. Although we’re handling the material at our site and in the way that we’re told to. We’re still having a fundamental problem. So obviously, it’s like a recall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just have to be.

That’s a goodie, James. That’s a goodie. Yeah. I don’t know why I’m taking pleasure from it somehow. It’s another bad story. So you are? My pleasure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we’re getting to the point where we come to the final questions, guys, But I’ve.

Got one thing that’s that I’ve been thinking a question I’ve been thinking about asking from right at the beginning. James. We were talking about the art of craft that you’re that your father instilled in you. Perhaps what my father instilled in me. And then and then we go on to this situation where we have our own kids and we want to instil the art of craft in them, but we don’t own corner shops anymore, and there’s no newspaper rounds to dish out. But you still want your kids to grow up grounded and understand, depreciate, however you want to put that the value of money or hard work or whatever that that is. Does that ever come up for you?

Look. Look how hard he’s working, dude. I mean, your kid’s going to get it. No, but you as well. You know, I get that. But James worked in the.

Shop, right? That’s where you picked up your. Your personal craft, right? Yeah. Obviously leading by example. Do you ever sit.

Down and have to.

Have those conversations on that piece? What’s your take? Because, you know, both myself and Sonya. And I think that we have we’ve got we have worked fucking hard for. Yeah, we really have. And what’s put a huge amount of pressure on our own personal lives as well as everything else. But, you know, I think that my both myself and Sonya would look back on that and not regret any of it. And when the most of it, I think. But as for I look at Oliver. So Oliver decided that just last week he started his own car, Violet in business, and I caught him outside with a couple of pallets and a screwdriver, making himself a freedom that he can hang all his violet and stuff up on. He created his own Facebook page, and, you know, he he has had a couple of jobs, but they haven’t worked out for him because Oliver is like his father. He’s almost unemployable. And so he has his own cross to bear.

How old is he?

18. Doing a. So. But I look at Oliver. Go on. He went and got himself a job in the local last over the winter time. He went. Then he got his own interview. He did all of that off his own. But now he’s starting this little business cleaning people’s cars. And, you know, so they have always been told, you know, this is what we expect. You know, we work hard. None of this is going to come easy and it shouldn’t come easy to you. Madeline at 16 just isn’t at that stage yet. She just wants to land self over the dog. But she told me she was going to marry a rich man, so maybe that’s her way out of it. I don’t know. But we’ll see.

What Oliver’s.

Drive.

James So, you know, clearly he’s.

He’s been brought up in an environment in a home where he could be given and have everything he wants. Right? Do you. Do you hold things back? What have you done to instil in him? Go get a job in Asda if you want X, Y and Z or. And I guess the entrepreneurial spirit in him have said, right, I’m going to do my own car cleaning business because that’s a challenge and just talk me. Talk me through that. You know, I look at the kids and they’re so bloody lucky. You know, nice holidays, you know, But. But I think some of it’s a guilt thing for maybe myself and Sonya, because, you know, we probably have sacrificed time with them in the years gone past. And at the minute, things are just so incredibly hectic, you know, in terms of work life balance that is just not right. And we would be the first to admit that. But the kids are not given everything that they want. They have to understand the value of of what they have. And I suppose it’s just a. A persistent reminder of luck to them that things will come easy. But they’re good kids. Lesson, you know, proud of the really, really good kids and they don’t really give us too much trouble. So they’re not being troublesome, really. And they’re pretty good. Also not stood outside the off licence drinking side. That may happen the odd time. Yes. We have had the odd hiccup lesson that the 18 year old boy who plays rugby and has got that sort of circle of friends, you’re going to have the World Cup, of course, but that’s part of it. And I move different teams.

Let’s get let’s get to the final questions. Yeah, I think I think I think you’re going to be we can’t no, no one could listen to your story and not call you a serial entrepreneur. And you’re you know, I read this definition of serial entrepreneur. It’s something like highly optimistic and high pain threshold.

Yeah, we just whitewashed Haven. Yeah.

Just let’s get to the fancy dinner party. Three guests. Dead or alive. Who would you have?

Yeah. So first of all, without a shadow of a doubt as Mr. Larry Brown, Larry would have to be there to have one orderly, one more evening with Larry drinking too much wine, talking rubbish, putting the world to rights would be very special. So I think Larry would have to be there. He’s taught me more than I think anybody else has in my lifetime, bar my own parents. And we have a thing in our businesses where we refer back to Larry on a constant basis. And what would Larry do? You know what how would Larry cope with the situation? And so what they’d do, Larry Brown would be the first person at the table. Second one. This could be an interesting one for some people would have to be Queen Elizabeth. If this is a fantasy table. So our queen, the queen that has just passed away, I would absolutely. I think she was a wonderful woman. And let’s talk about work, work ethic and. Service and all these people go, Oh, well, it was easier. Bloody was not easy. You know, she, she put in some shift and she did it with such dignity. And I know that her and Larry would probably kill one another, which would be even better for them. But yeah, so just being able to have a conversation with her I think would be utterly fascinating. So she would be number two.

That’s a good thing. I’m surprised she hasn’t come up before, you know, That’s a goody.

Yeah. Number three. So I am named after my grandfather. So my dad’s dad and he died. Never met him. He died in his early fifties. As far as I’m aware. And. I’m told that I’m quite like him. I’m told that there’s a sharing of some qualities there. And I think ultimately the entrepreneurial side comes from him. And I would be really interested to know it’s actually a conversation I’ve probably not had with my dad too much. And we have discussed it at times, but not in any great detail. And that’s actually something I need to do, would be to find out a little bit more about what made him tick. I think I’d be quite interested in that and just be in meeting the person you’re named after. I remember I used to do carpet bowls. You guys probably have no idea of Calvados worthy. And it was a big thing. And I was given bowls with Jeff. And there were my granddad bowls when I was about 14. I used to play carpools and. Yeah, So I would like to meet him. So that would be the three. Raising. James, it’s your last day on the planet. You’re surrounded by your kids, the loved ones. And you’ve got to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. Life advice. Call it what you want. What would you say to them? So.

Number one. Something my mother told me when I was about. I reckon I was about 18 or 19. There was an incident that happened amongst my friendship group at the time, and I remember telling me, James, you get shot with the crew as your flavour. And. I’ll never forget her saying that at the time. And really what I’ve taken from that over the years, because I do think about it, is to surround yourself with good people and people that and these people can come and go at different times of your life. You might meet somebody for a short period of time that’s going to have an influence. But surround yourself with people who help you when you need help. Surround yourself with people who are good to you. Surround yourself with people who don’t say yes to you all the time, who can challenge you and help make you a better person. And surround yourself with people better than you. And I think if you do that, I think that that pulls you on as a person and that you learn more and that you’re more reflective and that you’re challenged. And I think that’s important. And the last bit of that one would be don’t suffer fools if there’s somebody in your life that’s taking more from the cup than putting in. Just get rid of them. Just stop.

You know, so I think surround yourself with good people. And I’ve tried to do that. So I think that’s number one. Number two, A is probably the only thing I ever learned in the history class. So there was a phrase or a little poem or whatever put on the wall. I keep on a serving man. They taught me all I knew. Their names are walked by. And when, how and where and who. And I use that all the time. And I think the core of that is to be curious. I want my kids to be curious. I want my staff to be curious. I want them to ask. I want them to challenge. I want them to explore. I do want them to accept the status quo. I want them to be interested in finding things out. That’s always been the way for me. When I put my mind to something, I’ve been curious to find out more. And actually that was also a big part of Larry Brown. And so I think being curious is really, really important and not just to accept things as they are. So that little poem sometimes when I’m presenting something or I’ve got an issue in the business that I want to solve, I’ll go through that. Like, I’ll ask the what, why, where and how you are and who to try to figure it out.

So I think being curious is a really good thing to be. And the third one is definitely have no regrets because I see people living with regret all the time. I see it in my own family at times. And regret just becomes a weight on your shoulders that drags you down. And, you know, we’re here for a relatively short period of time. I don’t want my kids to grow up with any regrets. You know, we have a go. We’ve all got skeletons in the closet. We’ve all had things that don’t work out. But you got to just keep going forward and keep trying. Learn from your mistakes. But you want to be able to look at yourself at the end of the day in the mirror and say, You know what? I give that absolutely my best shot. I can’t ask anything more for myself or for those around me. And you know what? That’s a pretty good place to be. So I do think, you know, let’s get rid of the regret. It’s too harsh. It’s too big a baggage to carry. And there’s no there’s no need for it at all. The people that love you are not sure that you surround yourself with. They don’t want you to live with regret. They just want you to get on with things. So that would be my third.

So beautifully articulated, James. Lovely man. You know, dude, sometimes these you know, we’re 10:00 on a on a monday night. Sometimes you get drained by by these conversations because it’s tiring, Right? But sometimes it’s the opposite. They feed you, wake you up. This one. This one really did that for me. Thank you so much, buddy. Thank you so much. Thanks, JD. In talking to you, we really enjoyed.

That. Thank you both, both of you. I’ve been a fan of the podcast for a while and I love the conversations, but you’ve got to get more people in Ireland onto them. Come on, get the Irish contingent. Tell us, tell us.

Tell us who to have. But you happily send us. Send them over, James.

Send them over. Absolutely. Listen, keep up the good work and thank you very much.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

An associate was asking me, me How many practices do you think are actually good practices where you’ve got a supportive environment as an associate to minority?

I would say.

I kind of I couldn’t really pick out a figure that, you know, just somebody was explaining to me about some difficult scenarios when they’ve moved from practice to practice to practice. And I would hope, I suppose the people that we speak to, we hope that, you know, most people are supportive and good principles and try and look after people as much as possible. But invariably there’s always going to be good and bad in any profession.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav selling cake.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome Imran Nazir onto the podcast. Amy is a dentist, cosmetic and implant dentist who has recently started a practice in Cheltenham with lots of specialists at Cheltenham and Cotswold Dental. He’s also turned his hand to teaching with his brilliant aesthetic prosthetic courses that he does with Manish Patel and recently launched a new implant course, a rich preservation course called 15. See? Brilliant to have you, buddy. Thanks for joining us. Welcome.

Thank you for having me. It’s great to actually finally come on the the podcast after listening to you guys every morning at 5 a.m. most mornings at 5 a.m..

It’s nice to have someone on the show who actually listens. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That’s when I do my commute. So it’s the best time to listen to all of this.

Here’s a test. What’s your favourite episode of me? Yeah. Nice. Oh.

Favourite episode. That is a test, isn’t it? Can I scroll to? Can I come back to you on that one?

Yeah. Yeah. I’ll tell you what my favourite episode is. Vishal. Vishal Shah. Yeah. Have you heard that one?

When was that one?

Ages ago. Yeah. This was the whistle blower. Hygienist Wasn’t. Wasn’t. Wasn’t disinfecting the instruments.

Oh, maybe. Maybe I did miss that one.

That’s the best. It’s the best. I’m going to have him back on as well, because he’s. He’s done really well since then. Class action lawsuit. All his patients. He was on the news in in China. What’s your favourite episode? That’s a good test. I think it’s still going to be a new right? Yeah, I think. I think it does, because. You know, I was very fond of the guy and and even listening back to that and I haven’t for a while. So many lessons, so many life lessons in them and whatnot. And such an inspirational guy, amazing teacher and a guy that touched many, many, many hearts and people’s education over the years. So, yeah, it’s still still stands strong as my favourite and then possibly my brothers, just because of the amount of swearing we had to come out of it, crying and crying.

If if you know the one the one actually more recently that I quite resonated with that I was telling the delegates on the weekend about was actually George is one a couple of weeks ago and you know the message I was telling delegates on the weekend was, you know, even someone as skilled as him with so much experience where he shared that story about putting the implant through the mandible without checking his implant motor and, you know, his background from his father medicine and now what he’s doing. I just found it a fascinating story, just a fascinating backstory. And he’s obviously, you know, he’s he’s done so well for himself now. And, you know, so many people look up to him in the implant world.

I mean, you know, how we normally start this podcast, but I’m not going to normally start it the way that we know I want. You know, I was looking at you today and I was looking at your you’ve done basically the sort of the funnel of a dentist. You qualify associate M.C. Squat practice specialist practice and now teacher. I want you to give me for each of those roles. One thing that surprised you. One thing you wish you knew before you did that.

For each of those roles.

Yeah. So before you became a dentist? Yeah.

Before I came. A dentist?

Yeah. What do you wish someone had told you before you became a dentist?

I suppose. I wish that before I became a dentist, someone told me that, you know, at the very outset of your career, try and make sure that a really good balance between your family, your friends and your dentistry. And I think now I’ve become much, much better at sort of being more conscious of my time and juggling all sorts of activities. But I think in the infancy of my career when I was an associate, certainly I would say that I was working so many hours in surgery and I probably missed out on things with my children that I absolutely regret. Whereas whereas now, when I yes, I’m busy in the week, but the weekends are solely, solely dedicated to being by the sports pitch, running my children around. And I wish I’d have known that a little bit earlier.

On that point, you were getting your 10,000, 10000 hours in, right? That made you that made you who you are clinically today. That puts you in a position to be able to teach and guide others and to be able to launch the clinic that you wanted to launch and deliver the patient journey that you wanted to do. And had you not done that and you were at the side of the pitch more or doing more, more family stuff, and I don’t think you’d be where you are today. And I think a lot of us go through that period. I definitely went through that when I was doing my 17, 18 hour days and wife and kids just got sidelined. Right? They were they were a secondary thought. And there are moments when I beat myself up about it. Right. But also I know very, very clearly I wouldn’t be the Prav I am today had I not been through that struggle. So knowing that, would you change anything if you went back?

You know, I don’t think I’m lucky. I have the most incredibly supportive wife who is a dentist as well. And you know, I wouldn’t change anything about my journey at all. I feel very privileged and fortunate to where I am now. And, you know, it’s been it’s been a passion of love, really. And I think even to this day, whether it’s writing new courses, whether it’s writing material for the practice, I love every single minute of it. So I don’t resent anything that I’ve done in the past at all.

I mean, what about before you started to practice? What do you wish you knew?

I started the practice in well, I think we completed on the first of 2nd of January 2020. I wish on the 2nd of January 2020, I knew that COVID was coming. That would have been brilliant. So second, 2nd of January 2020, we completed we started building work immediately. And I think I got into my surgery on the 1st of March. So I think we had 21 days before we shut down.

Wow.

Wow. I think I was in a practice for quite a few years, a private practice in Gloucestershire, and I think sort of through that period, it was a really, really good practice. And I think I learnt over that period the things that worked with management of the team and things that perhaps didn’t work. So, you know, for me actually when I look back on that period with COVID, it gave me a real good chance to sort of galvanise my team around me and to look after them as best as possible. So when I reflect on it, actually I think it was a blessing in disguise because now they are just so loyal and they’re such a good bunch that, that actually I think it worked in my favour.

But did you not have cash crisis?

Oh, there was definitely a cash crisis. I mean, we had we didn’t have everybody we couldn’t put on furlough because people weren’t on payroll in time. Yeah. And cash flow is definitely an issue. And if I look back to it, I think when Boris’s announcement suddenly came that we could reopen, I think that we probably had I probably think we had about three more, about three more weeks in us to keep things going well. We went to the banks, we went to the banks and I asked for a holiday on the repayments. And the first thing that they said was, What was my pandemic plan? And I told them I didn’t have one. And the second thing was that they said the money was tied into the market, so we’d have to pay break fees. But the break fees were in the were in the numbers of tens and tens of thousands. So that wasn’t an option. So in the end, actually, without taking out any more finance or anything like that, we managed to make it work.

I guess you weren’t you weren’t even eligible for the coronavirus business interruption.

We weren’t didn’t have any accounts. We didn’t have any accounts or.

Even a bounce back. No, none of it.

Nothing. We could we didn’t have anything available to us. So so I was basically sat in my garden office from about 6 a.m. till about 10:00 at night, head in hands, trying to work out how we do this. And on top of that, I was trying to work out what we needed when we were allowed to open. And you know, you can probably remember at the time that there was about there was a limit to how much PPE we could buy number one per week. And number two, it was sky high in price. So all I was doing every week I was ordering what I thought we were going to need so that at least I had some stuff. And then as soon as we were allowed to open up, we did training with the staff for about three days, four days, and then we just got going. But I had the PPE, luckily.

Was it from the beginning a specialist practice? Was that the idea from from the get go or did it become.

Yeah, I mean, that was always the vision of it. So the background to the practice was that it was an NHS orthodontic practice and quite a well established one in Cheltenham. So beautiful building lots of space and they lost their contract three years ago. So essentially it was coming onto the market and one of my, you know, my business partner at the Practice, we were best friends at university and she was actually a locum orthodontist at the practice. So she ended up ringing me and said, Look, Amy, this is becoming available. What do you think? There was four partners who own the building and the business and I just thought, wonderful location, Cheltenham’s affluent area. My referral base was in the in the region. I thought it was just too good an opportunity to pass. So, you know, we immediately made the move and with a vision of turning it into a fully specialist practice.

Nice. So in terms of you said your referral base was there, so were you confident that you’d have enough patients to be sort of treating and seeing at the practice so that I guess marketing or new patient acquisition, those sort of things were less.

Of a problem? Well, obviously, you know, there was obviously an element of risk, no doubt. Yeah, but a lot of the practices that were referring to the practice in Gloucestershire that was previously at they were referring directly to me as opposed to the practice. So, you know, it felt I felt that it was a risk worth taking and it was the right step for me at the time. And from a marketing point of view, my vision with that was that there was still some NHS orthodontic treatment that was being finished at the practice and actually in the lead up I came out of the practice in Gloucestershire about six months prior to concentrate on this, this set up and you know, the previous owners were great. So in reception we were leaving out flyers, we were leaving our information, we were emailing to say about the change of the practice. So I knew that patients like the practice and parents were bringing their kids in for NHS. Also, that we were going to pick up enough enquiries to get us off the floor. So that’s basically where it started from. And even to this day we don’t, you know, we don’t do external marketing. Yes, we have a website, but every I would say on average we get about 100 new patient referrals a month into our specialists and then enquiries a beyond that. So I track it regularly. So and that started pretty immediately and that just continues to grow.

Just, just on a point of curiosity, you know, when, when a referral comes into the practice and I think one of the things when, when I speak to whether it’s a specialist referral practice or a practice that relies heavily on referrals because they’ve got a team of skilled clinicians, is this element of dropping the ball with referrals that have come in and you see a sliding scale of this, all different elements of it and part of it could be a referral comes in, but it came in via WhatsApp, but a referral came in and it came scribbled on a back of a lab note or whatever. A referral came in by email, but it got it went into junk and then let’s say it was the super smooth process and the referral comes in digitally. What’s your I’m going to call it the patient journey, right? But your patient is the dentist and the patient, right? And so what does your journey look like when when when a dentist sends a referral in? What’s your communication like with that? And if you experienced any of those issues that I’ve just outlined.

Yeah. I mean, when you’ve got a high volume of referrals coming in, it is so easy for one to go astray. Especially when you’ve got a big team and you know how, say, for example, my treatment coordinators would handle matters compared to, say, how one of our front of house staff would handle things may be slightly different. So, you know, the standard we have two treatment coordinators and the standard thing I’ve asked them to do, which they do, is as soon as we receive a referral, we will the treatment coordinator will pick up the phone and ring the referring practice and say that we we received it, thank them for sending the referral and then of course, communicate with the patient and go through everything for the appointment, what to expect, what the fees will be, send them a map, etc. etc.. Throughout the process, I mean, one thing I’m massively keen on is I track everything within the practice. So I’m a spreadsheet man. I like to know that everything is logged. I like to know how long it takes for the patient to be seen and actually what the outcome is. So I view that every month and keep an eye that everything’s been been sort of handled. And I think more often than not with my team, I don’t think many slip the net, but we’re human and mistakes can happen. Because like any referral practice, as I say in our in our monthly huddles, a referral practice is all about relations with our referrals, dentists, dentists. You know, it’s just absolutely key. Yes, we have to look after the patients, but we have to look after the dentists as much as possible.

When the dentist sends a referral to is that patient as good as sold? So they’ve got a clear idea of what your fee structure is and all the rest of it. Or do you start chasing that patient in the sense that your dentist is recommended you come in for an assessment for oral surgery or whatever. And our assessment fee is 250 quid we’d like to book you. And with doctors, such and such. Is that a given that they’re going to book in because they’ve been referred, or is it that the dentist has said, hey, this patient might need this, I’m send him across and then your TSOs are doing exactly the same as what you would be doing if that patient came in on a self referral where they’d have to follow them up, remind them, text them email and so on and so forth.

Yeah, I think I think for those that refer to us that they historically referred to us, I think that, you know, I would say 100% at a time, they will come in for the consultation. Usually, you know, 100% of the time they will already regularly communicate with the practices about like even at the end of the year, what our fees have changed to so that it’s accurate for their patient. So only, you know, in January I was sending those messages out to say, look, our consultation costs have gone up, our CBC costs some more are also fees and now this and that way it’s patients aren’t shocked when they turn up to see us. So I think from that point of view, we do we do relatively well. We have two incredible treatment coordinators. One lady who had knowledge base is superb and and actually she has like, you know, Prav, you know, people skills are everything in that position, right? And the patients just love her. Just absolutely love her. She will know about every pet their family member has and she just gets them on the right level and looks after them. And she will try and work out a plan with the clinician. If somebody can’t afford something, she will work out a payment plan for them. She will do whatever she has to to make sure that the patient gets the right treatment. However long the term is.

So in a normal practice where patients are self referring in, CO may see the patient for a consultation and then book the patient in with the the dentist. Right. Or the treating dentist or whatever. What role does the CO have in a specialist practice like yours? Is it similar. Do they meet with the patient before or are they having that rapport building conversation with the patient where they’re essentially selling them the assessment or the US piece of you or one of your colleagues to get them in and then help them along their journey?

Yes. So they will of course, they will initially build up the relationship on the phone. Yeah. And but when they come for their first new patient appointment, they will meet the CO and they will then go through be led through to the surgery by the TSO. And following the appointment they will go and sit in a room and just chat about things and ask questions that maybe they will find less comfortable asking us about.

Sure.

So that’s usually the journey. And then the TSO will follow them up. They’ll get the letter at the end of the day and the TSO will then followed them up probably about a week later to see if there’s any questions that they want answered.

You usually get a letter out within the day or just.

So all the other clinicians usually will get also will go out within the day. My aim is always to make sure my letters are out within the week. If it’s a straightforward letter, not a nine page summary, if it’s a straightforward letter, they can get it within a couple of days. If it’s if it’s a vast treatment plan or I need to look at the CT scans, it might take a little bit longer.

I mean, you seem to me I mean, we don’t know each other that well, but you seem to me like you found your ikigai. You know about that Japanese thing, right? Do you know about it?

No, I don’t.

It’s like. It’s like the concentric circles. You know, that which you are good at? Yes, That which the world needs. That. That which you will get paid for. Basically something that combines your passion, your your, your mission and everything in the middle ikigai. You seem to me like, like one of those cats who’s got that all fixed. And it’s interesting in dentistry, right, because that which the world needs and that which the world will pay for is already ingrained in dentistry. And then it comes down to, you know, what you enjoy doing and what are you good at doing? So with your practice, which bits of it do you hate and hate to hate of anyway? Which, which bits of it is it that you don’t feel in flow when you’re dealing with and which bits of it you really feel like you’re really in flow you really love doing.

So if I could. So what do I love doing? I love driving the team forward and inspiring the other team members to take ownership. You know, we are so, so lucky that we have I mean, the team is now 30 and I can hand on heart, say within every member of that team, there is no one that I would never there is no one that I wouldn’t employ again. Well, and genuinely, you know, they they feel like, you know, we call ourselves a family and, you know, one of my one of my actual greatest worries, which sounds strange, is that I worry that in the future when we do sell, you know, I worry about who’s going to look after these guys. And, you know, so I kind of I love working with the team. I love inspiring them. Hopefully, I know that I push them hopefully in the right way. And I love that. You know, some of my favourite moments is that when we go and socialise together, you know, the most recent two we did, we had a, we had an evening playing darts and food and drinks and that was good. And then we went to, we went to an Indian afternoon tea session and gin tasting and you know, when you can mix the pleasure, you know, genuinely everybody just gets on right here. So that is probably the massive perk of running this practice. Of course.

You haven’t had to fire anyone yet.

I know I haven’t actually, which is which is great. I mean, along the way, there’s probably been people that perhaps I inherited from the previous practice that I realised we’re going to be an obstacle for my vision. But you know, luckily within a few months they realised that things may not work out how they wanted them to work out. And they, you know, they looked elsewhere and that was perfect. That was ideal. So, you know, I would say that we don’t have any bad eggs and there is only, you know, positive energy. That’s one thing I struggle to cope with, that if somebody is continually negative.

True.

That is that is because that just brings you only need one negative person within the team to bring everybody down. Unfortunately, unfortunately, I wouldn’t say we’ve got any of those at the moment, which is great.

So which aspects of it don’t you like?

You know, it’s very easy for me to say that there is nothing within the practice I don’t like. I mean, I think I think we have we have two managers. We have two managers, which now over the last three years have come to grips with how we like to run things. So I would say at the infancy of the practice, too much was coming to us, to Sam and I. But as time is gone, you know, the managers take a lot of load off us. And for me that’s great because I get to get on with my clinical stuff. You know, we do we do a weekly meeting, a weekly managers meeting where for 2 hours we’ll go through all the issues. Anything may have come up and we we manage it immediately and give an answer. And that’s a really good way. So that way the rest of the week, it’s not eating into my mindset or I can get on with the things that I need to do.

And how many days are you clinical?

So at the moment I’m three and a half.

Well, that’s good.

So I’m three and a half and you know, give it probably a year. I’ll probably be down to I’m looking to get to three. So I do.

That’s good.

So three is three is about the optimum for me, the way that I operate. So I think that’s probably the perfect mix to have a date. I do a days admin from home, which is practice related or treatment planning, and then of course a day may be spent teaching and then weekends is about being a taxi for the children.

So. So I’m going to ask same question before you embarked on your teaching. What do you wish you knew or what surprised you about teaching?

And teaching was? A Yeah, teaching was quite a jump because, you know, even on the even on the weekend, just gone when we launched 15, see you kind of there are times where you still feel, you know, it’s that whole inferiority complex and you think, should I be stood here in front of these people? And there are times when I’m lecturing, when I think I’m talking about something so basic that I’m probably not giving value to the delegates. But I was amazed the first time that I taught that actually you can’t take anything for granted and you know, you need to the most keeping things simple is actually the best way to educate others and not to go to Complex. And I learnt that the first time very, very quickly.

What was the first time? Can you cast your mind back to the first time you got up in front of a bunch of people and said, Right, I’m going to teach these dudes some some stuff just how you felt, the whole impostor syndrome complex and nerves maybe. I don’t mean mean. Payman just spoke about this incredible length. We actually went through the journey together. But take us through your journey. I mean, what was that like the first time you stepped into or started thinking about teaching?

Well, I think I mean, it was just the most incredible buzz because during COVID we did I did a few webinars, and the webinars were fun. But, you know, interacting live with a with a group was just was just such an experience. And even even on Friday, you know, it’s a long day. You’re on your feet the whole day. You’re helping everyone. Everyone wants a piece of you. Lots of questions. And the day after you are so, so drained. But it’s just the most rewarding thing when you can see 22 people produced the level of surgery on a pig’s head that you would be proud of and you think, Do you know what? I’ve actually made a huge difference here to 22 people, and that that is just a feeling that you can’t really replicate. You know, we go we after the course we go for, usually I’m there showing clinical paces till we’re thrown out. And on them literally on Friday they were like, You’ve gone past your contracted time. We have you have to go. And I was still up there showing clinical cases. People wanted more. They want to see some soft tissue grafting. So I just started showing a bit of that and we go to the bar afterwards. I ordered the pizzas in and you’re just chatting. You’re just chatting about life, people’s practices, and you just don’t want that moment to end, you know, the course. Or we were just sat there till about 3 a.m. and, you know, and in the end you had to, you had to go to bed. And actually I was so gutted that we had to go to sleep.

Is there a one day course?

It was a one day course, yeah. You know, the second night you would just finished.

So how do you market the courses in me?

So we do it solely on, solely on our Instagram accounts. So, you know, with messages following and the followers that I have, we’ve just slowly, slowly drip fed it onto there. And we’ve been fortunate enough that it’s sort of attraction and people have been really interested in them.

I mean, it’s nice for you, I guess Menashe is a real. Of courses, right. So he could sort of tell you what to expect. And, you know, I remember when we first started doing courses, it was it was a nightmare. The first few times I found it so hard with hands on making sure every little thing was there. Just just just little operational issues like that. Do you not find those hard?

Yeah. So, I mean, his experience from running Focus is has been has been so helpful. And, you know, even when I put some slides together, just his gist his Yeah. Experience from that background has helped us helped us know and I think I think the jump for him has been going from doing photography to something that is different. Say for example, doing live hands on with pigs heads is is a completely different, completely different area. But no doubt from a from a website design, you know like our websites manage puts together from our marketing branding for our book that we put together for the boxes, the packaging, we already has the contact. So it’s made things so much easier. So with AP took us with aesthetic prosthetic, probably put us 12 months, took us 12 months to put it together with 15 C You know, we have the blueprint how we want to do things, we have the venue. And I think within four months we put it together.

What does it stand for?

15 C So 15 C is based on my favourite surgical blade.

So.

So that’s, that’s kind of where we say the logo is, got the blade underneath it.

Okay, that’s funny. What I was trying to think to myself. 15. Yeah, I was saying the mix man because I thought was something dental that you guys probably know about.

So because you haven’t, I mean you haven’t picked up a surgical blade in many years, right?

No, 12 years.

Yeah, 12.

Years. And even then, I didn’t used to like blood at all. I mean, as soon as it was anything to do with blood, I would refer it even a not so difficult wisdom tooth. I just refer it. I just refer.

And that’s fine, isn’t it? Because if that’s if that’s not what, you know, your niche then it’s not your niche.

Yeah. I think what it was, I took a break from dentistry for five years, then I went back. When I went back, I was just like, This isn’t my main career anymore. I’m only going to do the bits I’m either really good at or really like. And that just left bleaching and bonding really was I was referring everything else, completely referring everything else out. And it’s a funny thing. Yeah. But knowing what you’re good at and what you should keep doing because if you ask the question I was asking myself this, it was a bit of a silly question really. Is there anyone who can do it better than me? And if you asked that question, you literally left with nothing because there’s always someone, right? You can do it better than you.

But the but the beating but the bleaching and bonding has taken you down this road, which is, you know.

Was already down the street when, when, when I was saying that. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, let’s, let’s, let’s get back to your back story, buddy. When was the first time that you had. I’m going to study dentistry in your head. Like, when did that first coming to endure radar, Do you remember?

So that was literally only the day before I handed in my A-level choices. There was there was. There was. I knew that science was always my strongpoint, Always, always. And so I knew that I wanted to do chemistry, biology, physics for my A-levels. But I think it must have been around that time. And when we were handing in the applications for university that I was marrying up medicine, optometry or dentistry, and I came to the conclusion that medicine wasn’t for me and I thought I would give dentistry a go with no reason. There was no family members that were dentists. And I always actually think back to that day and think how lucky I was that I actually chose something that I fell in love with. Yeah, it could have gone so wrong. It could have gone so wrong. So there was no reason why I chose dentistry, hadn’t really done me work experience in it. And I just got lucky.

And you were living in London? Yeah.

Yeah, I was. So family homes in sort of Purley I was at school in Dulwich and.

The school itself.

That one little college. Yeah. And that business was in Balam. So Dad used to drop me on the way to school and then head up the South Circular to Balam.

What does your dad do?

So he retired now. He would call himself a businessman. He is a man with fingers in many pies, but his main business. His main business. He had a Mott mott station in car garage. So, so, so sort of that that moved over to England when he was 16 and started doing engineering and an apprenticeship. And then he was working I think he was working in a petrol station, but at Night-Time he started a business. Mobile repairs through the night and then managed to save enough money to then set up his own garage. And, you know, we’re very it’s served me and my sister well and just, you know, he worked incredibly, incredibly hard to give us what we have today.

So reflecting on that Prav thing that he was saying about, you know, you not seeing your kids when you were putting in those hours. You didn’t see your dad very much, right?

I literally I did not see Dad at all.

Yeah.

The only mom used to do all of the stuff with us. Really? And Dad was. Dad was so busy with the business and working every hour possible that that. Yeah, we didn’t spend much time together, but, you know, through no fault of his own, I mean, everything that he earns or everything that he worked for was solely for us. I mean, I think back to a story that my mom sort of sums up what my dad is like, and my mom is the eldest of six siblings, and I remember he met my mom. They must have been about 16 and he wanted to take my mom out. And my mom was like, well, you’re going you’re going to have to go and ask Nana about it. As in my granddad. So, Dad.

Is this back in Uganda?

This was back in in England. And this is when they met in England. And about this was probably about six months after they came over from Uganda. And he went to ask my granddad whether he can take my mom to the cinema. My granddad said, Yeah, that’s fine, but you do realise to take her out on a date, you’re going to have to marry her first.

So.

You know, so they got married and incredibly, you know, they’re in love, They’re still together. They make a great pair. But before he could take her to the cinema, he. They got married and Dad would work all week for enough money to go to the cinema. But he felt bad that all of Mom’s younger siblings couldn’t go, so he would save all of his money to take all six of them to the cinema together. So his first date with Mom was with five other younger siblings.

Oh, wow.

And even to this, to this day, he spends, you know, he really looks after my mom’s side of the family. His side of the family are in like Canada, America. And he has very few family in the UK that’s originally from Tanzania. So from Tanzania, they they went, they went America Canada way. But Mum’s family from Uganda being born there from Uganda, they all came here pretty much.

Say my dad was from Tanzania as well.

Oh. Whereabouts?

To borrow.

Right. So so we have similar heritages. We look the same background.

Colour, the same hairstyle.

I know, I know.

So listen to me. It sounds to me like you learned from your dad the sort of discipline, working hard, doing things for your kids, that sort of stuff. And I reflect on what I’ve said and, you know, the osmosis of that came through to you. Whether or not he spent the hours at the side of the football pitch or whatever. What did you learn from your mom? What kind of person was she?

So mom is a really unique, selfless person. I think one of the things I learnt from Mum is that well, I sort of learnt it in a in a roundabout way is that most of her life. She never used to say no to anyone about anything. And I’d say in the last couple of years she’s learnt the art of saying no. If it goes, you know, if it’s to a complete detriment herself. So Mum’s always been a giver. She’s been a feeder. You know, my sister lives around the corner from her in London, and I bet you every time my sister steps out the door, there will be fruit bowls and parcels for all of her children where Mum, Mum can’t go to the shops without buying groceries for her sisters, for her mum, for my sister. Recently we wanted to change mum’s car and she’s got a mercedes saloon and mum’s rationality that she couldn’t possibly change the car. Was that her Mercedes with the saloon? She could fit multiple boxes into the back of it, that she could deliver food parcels to the rest of the community. So, you know Mum. Mum has been. Mum has been the sounding board the whole way through. You know, I still ring mum and dad every day as much as I possibly can, you know, for, for advice or just to listen to things and just get their opinion of things. But you know, they’ve been, they’ve been a great support. Always. Always.

So did you not feel like coming back to London after you studied in Bristol, Right. Yeah. You’ve pretty much stayed on that side of the country.

Yeah, I think I think I’m quite I wouldn’t say say I’m the black sheep of the family, but we have we have so much family in London that actually I find it so claustrophobic that when I’m back, it’s like, you must go and see this and you must go and see this person. If you don’t go here, this person is going to get offended. And I just I just literally there’s too much going on in life that I can’t cope with that.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I think for me, moving out of London was was great for me. It just allowed me to grow up. And Bristol is a phenomenal place and we’re lucky. My wife’s my wife’s family’s in Bristol, so we have that support nearby. And, you know, it’s only, as I say to mum and dad, it’s only 2 hours to London. And now that they’re now that Dad’s retired, they can, they can come up at their leisure. But again, you know, from Mum’s point of view he has so many people that she must look after in London. So it’s difficult for them to free up their time as well.

So you still live in Bristol?

So I still live in Bristol. So the children are at school in Bristol. We’re happy and settled there. They’re settled in school, so I don’t see myself moving towards Cheltenham.

So I have like a city.

Yeah. I mean, Bristol is just we have so many friends that have stayed on from uni, so, you know, I can’t see anything changing for the in the near future.

My, my, one of my favourite restaurants in the country is in Bristol. Which was it. Pacos.

Yeah. Pacos is good. You must have gone with Alfonso. He must have taken you.

No, Richard took me. Richard Field. Richard.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. But what a restaurant, man. What a great, great restaurant. And perhaps the best thing on the menu. The best thing on the menu. Go on. Brendan Olive oil. Yeah, but you wouldn’t believe it. It’s like a michelin star place or something. Yeah, and bread and olive oil. It’s like they barbecue the bread and then they’ve got some amazing oil they put on my water. I just. I just started watching something on Netflix where the I can’t remember what it is. And the guy walks around with a bottle of olive oil that his mum’s pressed and he just walks around eating this bread and olive oil and they pass it around and apparently it’s the best thing ever. So yeah, I’ll have to, I’ll have to get Alfonso to take me there the next time I’m in Bristol. He just.

I mean, the restaurants, we’ve got some I mean, there’s Michelin starred restaurants. There are Michelin starred restaurants that are so reasonably priced in Bristol as well. We’re actually the bill comes. And you think they’ve miscalculated? Actually, you know, I think the last time I went to one actually said to them, I said, you’re actually under charging here. I feel uncomfortable paying this bill. And it was like it was a it was and the service was just so good and it was like a nine course tasting menu. And it’s in cotton. I forget the name of it, and it’s not flashy at all. It’s got wooden chairs that you think that you just see in a cafe. But just the food was just incredible.

What will you like as a dental student? I mean.

I think I was a party animal. Yes, I was. I was diligent. What I needed to do my work. I did my work. I did well. I did well at dental school, but I was massively involved as well in the sports scene. So I played I played hockey at university, I played cricket at university. So with that came a lot of socialising, a lot of nights out. So I would say probably, you know, there would be events probably for four out of five nights in the week.

Nice. Did you meet your wife at dental school?

No. So we didn’t. So we met at. We met in VTE in Bristol. So she graduated from Cardiff.

All right.

And then we were on the Bristol scheme together.

Nice. Yes. So she’s a better dentist than you, then?

She is definitely the better dentist than me. He’s definitely the better dentist in me.

Because you work in the practice also.

No, she doesn’t. So I’m very what’s really important to me is that my. It sounds strange, but I don’t want my family life and my work life mixing together. So, you know, Kristina works a couple of days a week. She she unfortunately got meningitis ten years ago. So she’s been she’s suffered a lot of health issues. So she stopped working for about 9 to 10 years. So she she only went back probably about school probably about six months ago. And she does a couple of days a week at the at the practice where she did her vet. So a lovely practice down in Cheddar North Somerset. And she’s happy. She works in general practice and she’s a really, really good solid dentist, really solid dentist. So. So yeah, so but no, there’s no aspirations to work together. I mean, recently I asked her if we could go on a course together and she was looking at some courses, but she refuses to go on any courses with me because she said she finds that it would be too much pressure if I was looking at her work.

So, Amy, when you look at this business of yours now. And I mean to you. It must feel like it’s you’ve gone through so many different stages already. But to me, you know, when Prav, I’m sure from the outside you’re just at the very, very beginning of it. I mean, it’s very, very early days. What’s your aspiration? Do you feel like you’re going to repeat this model? Do you want this perfect one site where you’re just going to keep on perfecting it and keep on perfecting that one site? Are you thinking anything about the future, long term future? Do you want to sell it and do another one like you said, sell?

Yeah. You know, there are times where I. I think I think this one would stay as a hub for sure. And, you know, this is the baby. This is this is where it sort of started from. And, you know, Sam and I are so Sam and I Sam, being the business partner and one of my best friends from university. You know this. We will always keep going. I think my one worry is that if there was any expansion, I think that, you know, there’s an element where you have to start letting go of certain things a lot more. And I think either you can I think it’s very difficult to be a teacher, clinician style individual and to have multiple practices potentially. And I feel that for me, I think that I would struggle to cope with multiple practices. I think there is that whole thing where, you know, only about three or four months ago I said to Dad, I said, You know what, I would love to potentially start a school in Bristol and go again. That doesn’t mean getting rid of getting rid of this one. That just means trying to learn something else. And, you know, one dad’s advice always to me is that, you know, slow and steady, you don’t have to do everything at 200 miles an hour.

But I think that’s where dad, in my opinion, slightly deferred, because I’m always thinking I’m always thinking about exit and trying to, you know, not exit, always thinking that I don’t want to be working, you know, at this level of dentistry. I don’t think I can be doing it at the age of 60. So I kind of need to have a strategy in place for the age of 50, you know, something, something along those lines. And then there’s this burning desire of what a challenge of what a new practice would bring. But I think there’s nothing on the horizon. I think I’m fully, fully content. I am fully content with this one. There is room for expansion. There is room for further growth. You know, we’re just starting a sedation service. We’re starting inhalation sedation. There’s a few other angles that we’re working on as well. So I think really that this is this is just what we’re going to focus on for now. On the other side of it, you know, with 15 C, there are lots of exciting ideas that we have coming with that that we’re already working on other projects around the 15 C sort of brand and between the practice and that, I think that’s enough for me to chew on at the moment.

Go on, Amy. Tell us what you mean by that.

Well, I think, you know, I think when I think back to my MSC training and implant ology and what I think to the questions I often get asked, I think within implant dentistry varies. That could be an improvement to the training programs that have been there in the past. So, you know, with this within this umbrella, you know, we’ve been working on. Yes, we’ve brought rich preservation to it. But, you know, I firmly believe that it would be nice to have one day courses for each discipline within implant dentistry where, you know, with a hands on element. And that way people can pick and choose what part they want to dip in or dip out at, you know, and that might be rich preservation, that might be soft tissue grafting, that might be hard tissue grafting, that might be immediate, that might be sinus lifting. You know, So all these things are going on behind the scenes to hopefully put together a program that if people want to do the whole program, that’s great. If people want to do one bit, then that’s also fine. But it’s taking time to develop it because I want to we want to make sure that it’s absolutely perfect before before it comes out.

I wouldn’t wait till anything is absolutely perfect, though, you know, because you’ll never get it. It’s one of those things it can get better on the job. Yeah. But I think, I don’t know, with implant training, there seems to be quite a lot of implant training around, lots of different sort of people teaching. But I still think it’s underserved. You know, one, one thing you don’t realise when you’re in it is that the whole market is growing. You know, when when we started bleaching, there was literally two of us right at the beginning, and then it became three of us. And then now there might be, I don’t know. 23 bleaching systems on the market. It doesn’t mean that now we’ve got 1/23 of that market. The whole market grows at the same time. And when I’m calling, I’m not calling it a market. I don’t mean market as in business opportunity market, but dentists, we need to get trained on implants. Now, talking to others, it seems to me and by the way, we have this problem in composite two people who come on the course and don’t implement. Have you got any sort of ideas on that? You know, there’s I mean, of course some people come on the course realise it’s not right for them. Others will come on the course. Think I’ll just restore implants? I won’t place them. But around that issue of implementation, can you think, you know, why were you the kind of cat who learnt it when on the MSC comes out, treats loads of patients now wants to teach it and then they other people who sit through long courses and not implement? And why are you doing anything about that?

Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. There is with implants. There is definitely you see a lot of that. You see people that have done the MSC and they have not placed an implant in like five years. And I find it really hard to understand why people don’t just get going with it. I think nowadays there is good access to mentors, and I think that’s crucial. Finding a good mentor that can assist you, that you can take patients to them and under supervision, you know, you can build some confidence. But I think really, I think if an individual is that way inclined, I think you need your own individual get though, to to push yourself to take that leap of faith. I think whether people are scared about litigation may be a part of it. Or also I think sometimes people are so people are caught in a rat race where somebody within an NHS practice may have gone and done an implant course and their diary is just so, so full of check ups and things like that that they can’t work out. How do I make time in my diary to just do implant work? And sometimes it takes a leap of faith or vision to think, Do you know what? Even if for the first month there is, I’m empty in that implant clinic on Friday morning that I’m going to go, It’s okay because eventually I’ll fill it and allocate.

The space anyway.

Just allocate the space to it. So I think, number one, that’s the barrier. And I think number two, I think it’s start up cost potentially to people. So if they’re an associate and they’re worried about the equipment that they have to buy. So I think I think within that remit, whether actually implant companies could help to get people going and to give them some implants or I don’t know how they would recoup it in time. But I think if you could take the the barrier away of having to buy everything initially, then people will just get going with it. And in the end, for those companies, if the if the clinician is using their implants, they’re going to do well out of it anyway.

It’s a very good point. I mean, there’s loads more barriers in implants than in other sorts of practice because like you say, you’ve got it’s one of those disciplines. You’ve got to kind of go all in on, isn’t it. You do, you can’t dabble.

You can’t dabble. And you know, you also have to be careful because you can’t do you can’t take on procedures unless you know how to deal with the complications. So, you know, and how many implant sites do you deal with where everything is pristine with lots of bone? I mean, it’s just not the case because you’re dealing with failed teeth. So, you know, I think if you’ve got a supportive principal that can that can help you, that obviously makes a huge difference. But not everybody has that. I mean, what would you say, pay in private? I mean, within the I was having this discussion on on Friday. And, you know, as a percentage in the UK, an associate was asking me in me how many how many practices do you think are actually good practices where you’ve got a supportive environment as an associate.

The minority?

I kind of I couldn’t really pick out a figure that, you know, just somebody was explaining to me about some difficult scenarios when they moved from practice to practice to practice. And I would hope, I suppose the people that we speak to, we hope that, you know, most people are supportive and good principles and try and look after people as much as possible. But invariably there’s always going to be good, bad in any profession.

You know, although when I say minority, I don’t mean I don’t mean that most people are bad. I mean most people are too busy just in the rat race of of running the business. You know, you seem to have this sort of very calm situation where you love your staff, you love your job, you’re running a very successful business from the get go. And I guess you had 16 years of training before you set up your practice, right? You didn’t jump into it on day two. So so but I think most most practices when when Prav visits them, I visit them. And you’re right, these are self-selecting group of like enlightened user is going to be a different type of dentist or the type of practice that’s that’s employing Prav is going to be a higher end kind of practice. And yet we see. I see. I don’t know about you. Tell us now. I see quite a lot of dentists and practice owners who are just running, running and not stopping. I mean, this idea of he’s working in me, he’s working three and one half. At the beginning. It’s rare to see. Yeah. Look, I see a whole mix. Those who want pay. Same, right? The guys who are. Who are just head down in the sand, just getting on with. Just trying to keep their head above the water, shall we say. Then you’ve got those who want to take all the juicy stuff for themselves, right. And so they don’t give the associates the support or the cases or whatever. I’ll take all the juicy implants. I’ll give you the more troublesome cases or whatever. Right. There’s that piece. And this is the whole thing.

The question that you asked earlier in me, which is when we get back to implementation, what do we need to do? You need volume, right? You need to get you need to get your miles in. And if I go on an implant course and the opportunity for me to place an implant is a month apart each time, I’m not going to have the muscle memory, the time, the the repetition and getting those reps in to be able to get better at placing implants. Right. Same with when we’re teaching the orthodontic courses, right? The first thing we say is before you come on the course, have three patients lined up. You know, your mom, your sister, your best friend who’s got crooked tooth nurse, whatever, right? So you’ve got your cases lined up and then start identifying those patients straight away. Make sure you’re in a supportive environment. So it’s really hard to answer that question. What percentage is supportive? I mean, we’re seeing in the high end practices we deal with combination of what case saying. But what I’m saying is that the greedy principle, right? Not necessarily the greedy principle. The principle is thinking, look, I’ve got to get the money in for the business rather than for the associate so we can pay the bills. Yeah. And Amy, what I’m seeing with you is definitely not the mindset of somebody who’s been running a business for three years. Yet, to me, if we were to summarise the conversation we’ve had at the moment, you just floating through life. Yeah. And I mean that with the greatest respect. I’m not saying it’s been handed to you, you just floating through life, right? Like you’ve put, you’ve put the miles in but weekend with your kids.

Right. Three and one half days clinical doing a bit of teaching. Yeah. If you came to me for advice and said practice number two, I’d be like, life’s beautiful right now. Yeah, life is beautiful right now. Scale what you’ve got right now. Yeah. In that location where you can be more regularly. Yeah. Grow the teaching side of things and put an exit strategy together. What does that look like? Forget about volume of practices. What’s the magic number? Yeah, what’s the magic number? That you need to walk away from it all and say, You know what? I’m done, guys. I’m out of bag of material, right? And figure out what that is and then just work backwards from there and you’ll have your answer right as to do. I do practice number two, practice number three. Or maybe you’ve got those ambitions right. But it seems like you’ve got your shit together. Make it really, really does. And I really admire that for somebody who’s three years into business such a short period of time, very calm in terms of not have to fire anyone. Everything. All those members of staff, you’d hire them. Again, there’s not many practice principals that can say that, I promise you, because it’s a daily conversation. How are we going to get such and such out of the business? We’re dragging them along. We’re doing this, we’re doing that. There’s problems and stuff. The systems, processes that you’ve put together, the follow up that you’ve got for your inquiries, just the way you’re talking about that is super, super mature. And it’s that’s your next course, mate.

Well, you know what I think of when I think of that sort of the team and what what makes them so good. I mean, even my interview process, most of my practice, the so recently when we’re been looking for another front of house stuff or the front of our staff said that they were just too busy dealing with all the inquiries and they didn’t have enough time. So I said, okay, so what’s the solution? And they said that they wanted another team member to help in the afternoon with answering the telephone and dealing with the Invisalign lab work, etc. So I said, okay, fine. So we advertised for another position and part of the interview process, yes, the managers will look at the applications. I, Sam, and I won’t get too involved at that stage, but actually we then bring in we might shortlist to six or seven applicants and they will come in and spend time with reception with the other team members and then the other team members will give us feedback and decide who moves through to the next stage. And then of course at the end of the line they will meet Sam and I and we will do the final interviews. But by then, you know, the staff have kind of already made their decision and, you know, and if there was a disagreement, we would have to decide whether we want to go a different way or if we’re going to follow the staff. But actually, more often than not, we all come to the same conclusion. And I think. I think I think that’s the main thing with bringing people in. I’ve just been very conscious that I think anybody is you can teach people some skills, but actually personality, you can’t change somebody so you know more. All I want is a good person in the practice. The rest I’m not so worried about because we can work on it.

That’s lovely. Really, it is. And and you know that the the first time you see that that person, once the staff have whittled it down to two or three.

Yeah. I don’t see them until, until the very end.

And who looks at the CVS in that is you is that still.

The business manager will look at that and that’s Sam. So Sam and I cover different parts of the practice of Sam will usually have been looking at the CVS when they come in on indeed or what have you. And then between her and the business manager, they’ll whittle it down to six or seven guys. And then. And then. Yeah, I’ll come in. I’ll come in on the final three.

I mean, you’ve listened to this podcast before. We like to dwell on errors. Tell me about clinical errors you’ve made that someone else can learn from.

And. I once did a. An extract. This was an ortho extraction. And there was absolutely no issue whatsoever. Tooth came out straightforwardly. It was the right tooth as well. And I went to just irrigate the socket slightly. And as I irrigated, the face completely blew up.

Well.

So my finger must have just touched the air at the same time as touching the irrigation. So, you know, immediately we had an emphysema. And. You know, reflecting back on that.

Did you know what it was when it happened? You understood?

Yeah, I understood what happened. You know, I immediately sort of I immediately pressed on the patient’s cheek, expressed as much air as I possibly could. And I’d done my couple of years of Max. Max right back after beat. So I expressed the air, obviously explained to the patient what happened and talk through the management process, ran the hospital, discussed it with them, discuss whether they wanted to see the patient or not, and and just so innocuous is so innocuous, an intact extraction socket. There should have been no chance of the surgical emphysema there because I hadn’t even separated the gingiva from the bone. So my take home message for everybody is be aware of those scenarios. All I can think was possibly happening was that at the apex of the tooth, it must have just been communicating outside the buccal plate. And then just that tiny bit of air must have gone up through the tissue plane and just blown the face up.

A pre molar. Did that.

It was a pre molar.

Wow.

Yes. So innocuous.

Wow.

And you know, I remember looking at my nurse’s face and obviously, if you’ve never seen that for the first time, it is so worrying. The patient’s eyes closed. The patient thinks they’re going to die tomorrow.

I’ve never seen it. What does it look like? Like a swelling.

Yeah, it’s literally like it’s literally out here within within seconds. It’s just blowing off, you know? And the risk the risk with something like that is that there’s an infected process that goes to the brain. So you expel the air as much as you can, but you won’t get rid of all of it. And then you’ve got to put the patient on prophylactic antibiotics with close monitoring and review that they don’t get any sort of pyrexia systemic issues that you could then be worried that it’s going north.

So this was an adult, not a child, right?

This was on a this was on a probably 29 year old that was happening. Simple extractions for ortho.

And so was the patient.

Calm the patient. I think the patient was calm because because.

I was calm.

I knew I knew what was going on. Right. And actually, I thrive on things like that because I love when something happens like that. It’s just another experience or something to document, something to share with somebody. So I don’t really I just look at it as an opportunity, really.

I think I think when you’ve done max facts, it’s hard to get fazed by that sort of thing. But tell me about one time you did get fazed. You know, it doesn’t have to be that sort of thing. It could be a patient who lost confidence, whatever, like something something that really affected you.

And I would say, oh, I reckon about two years post qualifying, I was doing a root canal and quite a difficult, difficult patient who I would say definitely litigious in nature. And I think there had been a history of stuff in the past and everything was fine. The rubber dam was on and I decided to I was irrigating the tooth and of course she started getting burning sensation in her cheek. Commonly hypochlorite. Hypochlorite had gone straight through the apex.

I realised.

Yeah, I did realise that the mistake was that my my gauge of my needle was way too close to the orifice of the opening of the canal. And yeah, I must have just been irrigating to vigorously and it just went straight through.

Through the situation. Really.

Pardon. Yes. And actually I’d say in clinical dentistry that is the only time I’ve been worried.

Why? Because your relationship with the patient wasn’t great.

Well we had a good relationship. We had a good relationship. But she is just unpleasant in nature. And probably now I would handle her differently. I suppose with experience and knowledge and controlled confidence, you talk to patients in a completely different way. But at that stage, you know, I was really worried afterwards because obviously I knew what happened. I didn’t know what was going to happen was the tissues gone and the crows on top of it. Fortunately, everything healed absolutely fine. There was no ramifications. I saw her every couple of days to check it. I did everything that I should have done, but God, I shat myself at the time.

So when you say litigious, you thought she would be the type?

Yeah.

So what you mean?

Yeah, absolutely. You know the mess.

With your mind, can it?

Yeah. The sort of lady she had, I think she’d had. She was just. She’d had two divorces. She’d had two divorces to two very, very wealthy men. And there was a lot of resentment to life in general because I think the things were she was finding things tough financially. And, you know, of course, in the back of my head, I was thinking, well, actually there’s probably there could be a claim here.

Yeah. Then hopefully.

Hopefully she’s not listening to this and and acclaim doesn’t come through my letterbox tomorrow.

It’s funny, isn’t it? As a as a professional, you’re always looking behind your shoulder.

Is there a time frame where they can’t come up, come after you? Or is it just indefinite?

No. There is a time frame after the time that they know there’s a problem, that they find something like that. But this is two years after you qualified. It’s been a while.

This is years after I qualified. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s hard talking. 12 years ago, though, probably I’d have had me.

I literally had so much hair I used to use. I used to use hair straighteners. I that much hair, really. I used to have some hair straighteners to do my.

Mohawk when I was when I was at uni. The barber said to me because my hair was so thick. Used to use these scissors to thin it out, to control it a bit more. Right. And he said to me, One problem you’re never going to have. You’re never going to go bald. Hmm. Yeah.

Famous, famous last word.

Famous last words. Yeah. Yeah. You did the messy. Now, if someone wanted to get into implant ology, would you recommend they do a sort of a course like that, an MSC type course, or would you say to do more like your kind of course or both?

What would you say? I think you need to do both. I think what you learn scientifically from you get you get pretty much no, I would say no clinical experience with them. What you do get is a really good foundation of knowledge and the ability to critique papers. And that even to this day when I’m looking at studies and papers, is a skill that I still have. But I think you can’t expect to come out of doing a four year MSC and think you’re the finished article because it’s just the beginning. And then you need to supplement it by clinical experience and then fine tuning on the right courses.

So where did you do your MSC?

I did it in Bristol as well. So it was back. I did it in 2010 to 2014. So it was four years, four years back then.

And how many how many implants did you place? Very few.

In the MSC. I place.

To.

Two two cases. Yes. So the first year was just one case, simple case. The second year you had to do a complex case, which was a block graft, and that was it. And then two years of dissertation.

And what was your research area?

So my research area was all for.

Oh, well, what about?

So I did I read all 970 papers back then on all on four. And you know, it was, it was, it was topical at the time. So I thought, you know what? I want to find out more about this. And it wasn’t as prevalent as it is now. So it was it was a really valuable review that I put together.

Do you do that kind of work a lot?

So I don’t do I don’t do all on four. I think there’s plenty of guys out there that do it all day, every day that are better served doing it. And you know, most of my referral work is I get referred high aesthetic cases mainly. So I just focus on what I do and let the all four guys do the oral four stuff, you know, because these guys, when things go wrong, they’ve got options to sort it out. They can put Zigomanis in, they can put Terry Goines in, you know, and that’s what I advise my patients when people come asking me to do an all on four, I say, Look, there are clinics that just do this. Just go to one of them, you’re going to get looked after and they’ll know exactly what they’re doing.

When you say high aesthetic case from an implant guy does that, we’re talking soft tissue.

Yeah, it’s a mixture. So it might be you know, my common referral is for a single central incisor. So and so most of my every implant case that I do, I would say 95% of my cases get a soft tissue graft.

Oh, really? Wow.

So, so every pretty much any anterior case gets the soft tissue graft. If I do any bone grafting, it gets a soft tissue graft at the same time. So, you know, I firmly believe that when we get volume loss around a ridge, 60% of that is actually bone and 40% of that is soft tissue. So I build the bone bit, I build the soft tissue bit, and my implant goes in.

Well. That’s not normal, is it?

I think it is different.

Yes, different to the to the sort of normal orthodox normal mantra.

Yeah. So I think it is quite different because in my eyes, I want I want at least in height of nice tissue, I’m looking for about five millimetres. So if we think if I’m thinking technical terms for the dentist that are listening, if the biologic width is three millimetres, I want a good good trans mucosal seal there. But then also I want that characterised tissue on the first two millimetres of bone so that we don’t start getting bone loss. So for me that five millimetres is key and there’s not many cases where you have five millimetres there. Hence why I tend to augment at the same time.

What does it mean though? Like surgically a soft tissue graft, right? What does that mean?

So soft tissue graft y. So technically there’s lots of different ways of doing it. If I’m doing it simultaneously with implant placement, it will be harvesting a free gingival graft from the palate and then the epithelial using that outside the mouth and then transferring the connective tissue site to the area. And I’d say predominantly, I use a connective tissue graft. I am doing more and more work with substitute materials. And that’s that’s probably more so from a teaching perspective. So I can give delegate a really good sort of description of how I find things working in my hands, all the various different materials. So if I think I’ve got a banker case, I will I will use a substitute material if I don’t need to harvest from the palate, if I’m really pushing the boundaries, I will always harvest from the palate and use the patient’s own tissue.

So you your personal clinical work, is it all implant based or do you do that?

I still do. I still have a handful of general patients and my standard make up for my day. I do my surgery in the morning and in the afternoon I do my consults a little bit restorative. I might do like my last patient just now, I just did a Crown Prep, so there were some patients that followed me from my previous practice. So those guys I feel that have been so loyal to me, they’re the ones that I keep. And, you know, there’s not hundreds and hundreds of them, but I like to look after those. And actually for me that makes a great mix from the surgery that I’m doing. So the case I’m doing tomorrow morning will be, I think I’m taking out single Central. I’ll be placing the implant bone graft, soft tissue graft, custom provisional, and that will take me most of the morning. But then in the afternoon, I don’t want to do another surgery. So I will just do I will do a composite, I will do this. I will do that just so I can slow down a little bit. So it’s the stage.

That you said you listen to this podcast at 5 a.m.. So is that what’s your day like? I mean, what time are you waking up and what’s your morning routine and all the.

So my morning routine. So I’m up at five. The bags are already packed downstairs. I jump in the car and work on the podcast. And if you guys haven’t released another one, then it’s usually the high Performance podcast with Jake Humphrey or Diary of a CEO. So I rotate between the three of you. And then and then I’ll get to I’ll get up to the gym and Cheltenham about at six. So I will train till seven every day, every day, every weekday. So I train till from 6 to 7 and shower out the gym by 730 into the practice. Four eight first patient, then I’ll chat to everyone 15, 20 minutes, have a little huddle with my nurse for the day and then 830 get going and then usually last patient finishes at five and then usually I’ll hang around for probably hour, hour and a half doing odd jobs, doing a few things. And I’ll usually set off from the practice about 630 and get home at 730.

Long day.

And then then usually usually then 730, there’ll always be there’ll be stuff to catch up with emails. So every day I’ll go through all the emails then so that I’m up to date ready for the next day. So usually I probably switch off about nine 930 as Cristina puts on Love Island and, and then up to bed for about 1030.

And the kids it’s that 730 to 830 piece right.

Payton says. The kids, The kids, the kids in the week, I do not see really a part. Yeah. So they’ve gone to I’ve left before they wake up and I’m back after they’ve gone to bed the only day that I’m there for them. So in the weekdays Thursday is my admin day. So I go to the I go and do my blaze gym class at 6 a.m. I rush back home and it’s my day where I drop them to school and I pick them up and then I do my meetings in between. So Thursdays are a dedicated day to drop off and pick off, which I absolutely love.

Let’s, let’s imagine, let’s let’s dream a little bit. Let’s imagine you’ve got a weekend to yourself. Wife and kids have gone somewhere and it’s just you weekend by yourself. What would you do?

I probably write more coarse material. Probably. I guess I probably do a mixture.

I think this guy’s got yeah.

I would probably do a few practice things. I would definitely write more coarse material.

Yeah, I did that yourself, man.

I know a little bit of that. And then I would message the boys and and make sure that we go out for drinks and a catch up that evening, lads.

The lads.

The lads.

Yeah.

And I’d definitely message the lads there would be a gym session in there somewhere. There would definitely be a gin and tonic in there somewhere. And I’m just, you know, genuinely speaking, just really simple stuff. You know, I’m not.

Just tell me that. Might you go to bed a bit later than ten? Come on. I probably.

I, I probably would. I’d probably be watching some sport or something.

Do you like watching sport?

Yeah, like I am sport mad. So, you know, whether it be whether it be Formula One, whether it be rugby, hockey, cricket, everything, you name it. You know, I am the one, the one thing we commit to every year is that we go to Silverstone to watch the F1 and we take my dad and my middle son who’s Formula One crazy as well. And we get great seats right by pole position. And but this year we’ve held off until we know whether the Mercedes is quick enough to compete because if Max is going to run away with it, we’re not going to go this year.

Like I said, maybe and perhaps they know what you’re talking about. But but, but I went but I did. I went to Silverstone last year, actually. It was raining like hell. And I was like, I was telling my son, who loves it. I was telling him, Come on, man, let’s just get out of here before the crowds. And he was like, Are you crazy? Yeah, our time’s coming out. Coming to an end. Time’s coming to an end. It’s gone quickly, man. Let’s. Let’s. Let’s finish with the usual questions. Let’s start with mine. Fancy dinner party. Three guests, dead or alive? Who would you have?

So. Of course. Of course. Guys, I knew you were going to ask this, so I’ve sort of been thinking about it. I’ve been thinking about it for the last hour before we came on. And the first one that I want to invite to this dinner party is one of my biggest, biggest regrets. And that biggest regret was, well, the person I want to invite first is my maternal grandfather, because he passed away when I was just in my first year at uni. And of course, he set up his whole life in Uganda and he was doing so, so well and he sacrificed everything. He had a lot of siblings, he had lots of children. And, you know, he was going through he kind of went into hiding for six months because the soldiers were trying to get him and kill him and he managed to get the family out of the country. And he eventually got out to Switzerland. And, you know, when we were actually at my nan’s house, as I was growing up, I was never old enough to know about or understand it properly when I was ten, 11. And I never, ever had the discussion with him about it. But the whole story, how he got away, what was going on, what was going on with his neighbours, how we managed to start with nothing and basically now have a generation where all my cousins have really a jobs started from him and I never had the conversation. So I would just I would love to spend the evening knowing more about it because even when I ask my mom, mom doesn’t know it in the detail that he knows it. So he would be number one.

Beautiful.

My second guest is going to be from my childhood. This is a strange one, and I don’t know if anyone’s ever invited this person to the dinner party is that I was a huge WWF fan and I believed for many years that it was real. So I really want to be the rock Dwayne Johnson, because I think he would be phenomenal at a dinner party. And, you know, he’s obviously gone on to do so well and have many different careers. So he’s number two for me.

Nice.

The third one, who is now unfortunately passed away, is someone that I’ve always been inspired by. And being a keen cricketer myself, I thought no one better to invite than Shane Warne, who I think I think he was the one guy that had such a influence on the game of cricket. Length in bowling, the character that he was, he was always in the media. He was probably had the greatest cricket mind, but he was never Australian captain because he was he was a complex character or he wasn’t conforming to the norm. But I just think that he would be he would be great on a night out. So he’s going to be my third guest. Nice.

That’s a nice combination you’re going to have. You’re going to have to explain to the WWF guy what cricket is.

He might have the other two in a headlock.

So how.

About.

That? Well, while you and your grandpa put the curry on.

I know he’ll be he was a chain smoker, so he’ll literally just be smoking. Shane Warne will be smoking and the Rock will be doing press ups in the corner.

Probably the shade won’t smoke. Is that what happened to. Is that did he die of that.

Yeah, I think I think he’s been I think there’s definitely sort of been some incidences of being caught smoking and smoking other things and, and various substances.

So, Amy, it’s your last day on the planet. And you’re surrounded by your loved ones, the kids. And you’ve got to leave them with three pieces of life advice, wisdom. Call it whatever you want. What would they be?

So I think I think my first one to all three of them would be that there is no substitute for hard work. Do not expect anything to come easy. Do not expect anything to fall into your lap. You have to go and grab the opportunities. That would be the first one. The second one would be to be. To be kind to everybody. To treat people how you want to be treated. Because I’m a strong believer in karma. And I think good things happen to good people. So I want them to continue to be good people always. And the third thing I would say to them is to try and sort of give them the confidence to say that it’s okay to make mistakes, but never, ever live with regrets. And that those would probably be some of my final words to them.

Very nice. Nice. I’ve got a question around number one, which is no substitute for hard work. It’s not handed to you on a plate. And, you know, coming from a generation now, who’s sort of, shall we say, we’ve you’ve upgraded your life from the melt station, Right. So so be that, be that. Whatever. Right. So your dad gave you everything he could give you within his means. And now you’re giving your children everything that you can give them within their means. But but there’s a certain amount of graft and hard work and, shall we say, struggle that you’ve fought through to get to where you are. Right? Because I don’t know whether whether you went without or you had less or whatever, but I’m assuming you can give your children more from, let’s say let’s say from a financial point of view than than let’s say your father could give you. Certainly that’s that’s my that’s definitely my situation. And the thing that I battle with quite a lot is how do you strike that balance of holding back and not giving them everything so they can learn the value of things? And with the thing that you always want the best for your children, you want to give them everything right. Do you ever have that conversation with yourself?

Yeah, I think, you know, luckily, Christina and I sing off the same hymn sheet. And, you know, we firmly believe that as the children are growing up and even when they’re at school, that they will go and do paper rounds and they will do jobs. And, you know, they they very, very carefully at birthdays, they have been collecting money that family members would give them. Sometimes when we’re out shopping or something like that, if they want something, I will say to them, that is absolutely fine and you can pay for it from your piggy bank, you know, on certain instances. And I think that’s our that’s our way of making sure that they understand the value of money and they realise that actually, yes, you don’t want to drum it into them, but how lucky they are at the school that they go to the fact that they get beautiful dinners, the fact that they have every sport possible under the sun given to them at school, you know, and that they’re they’re fortunate in that way. And I would hope that they’re really well grounded children because, say, for example, Christina, she was never afforded the luxuries as a child that I was afforded. So we had quite different lifestyles back then. So Christina wasn’t having many holidays with her family. And we were having holidays just just small things like that. So I think that you’re right, it’s always the forefront of our minds that we want to give them everything. But absolutely, they need to know that that. That there is that money doesn’t come easy and that they have to work hard for it.

Nice. Yeah. So. So is is always an interesting topic of conversation at home for us. My two younger girls get pocket money now. Your four year old? Yes, 70 a week. So we’ve created this. We’ve got this little sheet that goes through doing their homework, playing their instruments, blah, blah, blah. The seven things in the week. Right? And they get $0.10 for each thing.

Okay, that’s good. That’s a good way.

And every Sunday, they’re so excited. We sit there and sit around the dinner table and go, Right, we’re going to do pocket money down. And then if they I mean, if the little one goes batshit crazy at any point during the week, like she loses one of the ten B’s. Right. So we sit down around the table and both of them are really excited because we talk through the week and we say, how many that time you smacked your sister. That wasn’t cool, was it? So on and so forth. And she sits down, maybe she’ll apologise, reflect or whatever. Right. But we, the four of us, sit around the table and we have that conversation with the girls. And you know, my, my youngest is one of them is like, take your plate, pick your plate and put it in the sink after dinner. Now, my youngest is so good at that. She’ll grab hers, she’ll grab mine, she’ll grab her sisters. Right. And it’s so cute to see see this. Right. But, you know, sometimes we sit there and think, are we doing the right thing here? You know what I mean? Because there’s often that thing that, you know, should you have to should anyway. It’s always a conversation that, you know, whichever way you look at it and whatever you do and however you mix it up, you can always see two sides to the story, Right? But the motive is we just want to do our best for them to be grounded and learn about the value.

Absolutely. I mean, we’ve done those charts for exactly the same thing. And at the end of the week, it’s on the inside of the larder cupboard. And, you know, when we started off, their behaviour is so, so good, so, so good. But then as things get busy and things waver, you know, and then, and then they start getting to the age of ten and 11 and they start getting very smart with their answers and you know, their answers are correct. Yeah. Yeah. And the arguments become a little bit challenging to work around.

Sure.

But but you’re right. That’s all we want. That’s all we want for them to grow up, to be good people, to have the value, money. And that question that you asked before about, you know, an exit strategy or or a point where I want to stop, a lot of that revolves around me continually thinking about multiples of three in the sense that if I have to do this for one of them, I have to do this for the other two of them. And, you know, you just always want none of your children to feel that you love that one more and you love this one less. You just want absolute equality the whole time.

Because you think like Prav like you’re so different to Kailash when it comes to money. Yeah, I’m. I’m totally opposite to my brother when it comes to money. We were brought up the same way. Same parents, same same reward system. And I feel like I’ve got the opposite problem to what you’re saying. I feel like my dad gave me more than I’m giving my kids, and that’s a real head fuck. Do you feel like a failure and this sort of thing, But this question of value, of money and so forth, if it was that easy to to fix that, surely you and Kailash would have the same outlook. Yeah. Look me in my head. Look, I don’t even know if I’m approaching it the right way or. Or the right or I’ve got the right answers. Right. What I’m doing is going to end up with my children being totally grounded or not. It’s important to think about you, right? Go ahead. Me. But me and my wife have this conversation a lot of the time, right? You know, even when we’re away on holiday. Right. And you just you know, I think back to when I was a kid, right? We used to go to a place called Pizza Land twice a year. Twice a year. Yeah. And those are the only times we went out for meals. Yeah. Now we meet the wife and the kids, like, a couple of times a week, we’ll go out for dinner or whatever, and. And that’s just for shits and giggles. It’s not a birthday. It’s nothing. It’s. And I’m sure a lot of people do, right? And sometimes you sit back and reflect and think, Do you know what we’re really looking for? For the following reasons, Right? You know what? When we when we go round the supermarket, we never look at the price of anything we put in the trolley.

In fact, now we don’t even go around the bloody supermarket because a van turns up and delivers it through the kitchen window. Yeah. And, and you know what? Last week I spent, I spent a few days in hospital. Right. And I was on a ward surrounded by people. And there’s one guy across the way from me, and he said to the nurse, Can you ring my wife? Because I don’t have enough credit on my phone. Hmm. And you know, those those little moments, right, where you just think, fucking hell, you know what? Sometimes you’ve just got? It’s the little things that you take for granted. You’ve got a bloody pinch yourself, right? And whether it’s through your hard work or it’s been given to you, gifted to you, whatever. Right. It’s just sit back and reflect and appreciate the fact that you know what? I can stick some jammy dodgers in the basket and not look at the price. I can. I can say to my daughter, let’s just go. Let me you let’s just go out for a meal. Nando’s, whatever. Super nice restaurant, whatever. The thought or the cost aspect of it doesn’t even enter into the thought process. Right. And, you know, it was that guy who was in the bed across the way from me in hospital credit. I don’t have enough credit to ring my wife and I’m ill in hospital. That just blew my mind. So I think it’s important to sit back and reflect and appreciate what we’ve all got. Amy, It’s been so lovely to me. If you’ve got if you’ve got something to say on that. Go ahead and say it.

You’re absolutely right. I mean, I’m speechless that something that we are so we are so lucky and. You know, you’re absolutely right. Not genuinely really having to look at. What is the price of food that you’re having or however many starters you want or the main course? And yeah, it’s a very fortunate position to be in. You know, hard work or not, there is a fortune element to it.

Yeah, there is. But that practice of, of, of gratitude that you’re doing there, you’re definitely one of the, one of the cornerstones of happiness, right? Sure. For sure.

How do you do it? Do you do any journaling, Prav?

I do. So I’ve got a it’s called the five minute Journal, right. Say that, too.

So, yeah, I do that, too. It’s on my bedside.

So my young my my six year old also has a kids journal and gratitude journal, and it’s written in a different language. But she’ll sit there and she’ll write in it every single night after she’s done a reading before she goes to bed. And about a week ago, she got a piece of paper and she cut out loads of love hearts from the piece of paper. And she got a flask in all these hot thermos type flasks, right? And she got a piece of paper and she stuck on that piece. You stuck the piece of paper on with Sellotape and on that thing she wrote Gratitude Jar. Write down one thing that you’re grateful for and put it in the jar. And she put all the love hearts on the windowsill around it. So what she asks us to do is write something that we’re grateful for on the love part. Put your name on the back and pop it in the jar just once a day. She wants the whole family to do it. Her own bloody idea. She’s 50 years in front of me, man. Yeah. Her own bloody idea. I was blown away because my wife said, Look at what my hand is doing. Right? And I’m like, What the.

Can I suggest one thing? I think. I think she deserves more than $0.70 a week. Especially especially with current inflation levels. I mean, that.

That is at least 85. I’ll give a $0.10 bonus this week.

That is just that is like ultimate proud dad moment.

Right. Do you know what? I just I couldn’t believe that she came up with the concept herself. So I sat there, quizzed my wife, said, Have you told her about this? How does she even know about gratitude? Yeah, etc.. Except blew my mind. Thank you so, so, so much, Jimi. Thank you. Really, really enjoyed that, buddy. Really enjoyed that. Please stay in touch as well. But it’s so nice to see someone so at peace. Successful, you know, ikigai. I’m going to call this one or your your your copywriter is going to call this one ikigai guy. Thank you so much, man.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing and just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

Hi, guys. Payman here. It’s kind of a special episode today. There’s going to be one from many Smile Makeover. That’s the composite Hands-On course that we’ve been doing now for six years with Dipesh Palmer. He has a one of the sort of genius teachers out there. His presentation is just awe inspiring and the system that he’s developed in. You know, it’s a step by step approach that so many people are talking about is he’s really, really taught me loads and loads and loads, which feels weird for someone who’s 15 years younger than me. Many small makers have been something that we’ve been doing now with him for four, four, six, seven years. But obviously we’ve been distributing Cosmoland products and the enamel composites now for around 12 years. So before that we’re working with people like Jason Smith and amongst others. I think you’ll enjoy it. I managed to speak to as many people as I could across two different events. Most of them are delegates who’ve been on the course before and were visiting for a second time to brush up, which is something which we really encourage on that course. It’s a funny one. I love going to this course. It’s very, very tiring for us and for the telecasts, I’m sure. But when I spoke to Dipesh, it was at the end of the day and you can hear the guys and they had spent if, if, if anyone’s ever lectured before, you know, after 40 minute lecture, it’s it’s so draining and, you know, to, to lecture for two whole days with hands on. I take my hat off to, to all the educators out there anyway managed to speak to Matty Parsons who’s one of the demonstrators, and Martina Hodgson who’s been on this podcast before and and several of our delegates who did come for a second time. It’s this it’s a fun event. We do two days and a big, big sort of party in the middle on the middle night on the Friday night. Enjoy.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi, and Prav Solanki.

So I’m here on day one of list Makeover with type show who’s come for the second time. The first time you came were in Newcastle, Newcastle, Newcastle. And how long ago was that?

Oh, that was best part of nearly a year. Well, just. Just yeah, about a year. November last year in Newcastle.

And so. All right. Tell me about what you did after that. Did you start doing some cases?

Yeah, I started off with some really quite simple cases. I also applied it to a lot of just my general dentistry. I had full frontal fillings to do and I found a lot of the principles that Depeche goes through. You can just apply straight off the bat. You don’t have to wait for specific cases. It’s really, really useful in that sense.

Kind of teaches you how to do general dentistry, right? It’s not only for composite.

With exactly the principles you just apply everywhere and anywhere you can find it.

But how far are we taking it sort of thing?

So I started doing six canines of canine from two composite end cases. I’ve got one tomorrow, actually, which is going to show my case of today. But yeah, really, really good. I’m just using all the materials familiarising myself. I’m only a year and a half into my career, so yeah, I’m just looking to push the limits with it. Really.

What kind of practice is it?

Predominately NHS. I do work in a few private practices, which I do apply a lot of emergency dentistry as well. It’s very, very useful if a patient’s chipped front or veneer or something like these and these patients are quite they’ve got very high standards. So you need to do something a little bit more than your basic dentistry to keep them happy.

How did you get the private job.

Have a job? Generally just networking with a lot of people, telling them, I’ve been on a lot of courses such as this course and they were really impressed by that and really.

Was it something you used to get the job?

Yeah, 100%. You have to let them know that you’re willing to learn and you’re always looking to develop further. So they were generally very impressed with that. And they obviously know the patient, they know they know about Enlightened. So yeah.

So but when you say networking, so you’re in an NHS job. Yep. So what did you do? Literally what did you do? Did you turn up to dental events.

And dental events, Congresses, wherever I could, because I’m quite passionate about the industry. Whenever even I’ve got a day off, I don’t feel like it’s work if I’m attending a dental event. Even sometimes something as simple as sending someone a Facebook message, if you’ve seen some good work and going from there or we’re showing interest and yeah, and just kind of went from there and it kind of went from then onwards, there is skills I want to develop, such as photography and these kind of things. But I think first step first is just kind of putting yourself out there, not not being afraid to have a conversation.

And are you building an Instagram?

Yeah, well, I’m trying to. That’s something I need to work on and feel like I probably need to go on a photographer course, but I have started, so I’ll go from there.

Who did the marketing when you when you did your smile maker?

So we from your sales, we got the enlightened whitening, the whole pack, the practice pack. So that started a lot of conversations with patients. One good thing I’ve done, I got my principal to buy me a television into the practice. So I have that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I have a television. I mean, sure camera, but more so. So when the patient sits in the chair, when I need a couple of minutes normally to sort it out and stuff, it’s kind of loophole. There’s a loop of advertisements and just cases of done and I’m just playing and nine out of ten times patients will at least ask me a question about it. And it just goes from there. And it’s all about how you can kind of lead.

The conversation because it’s constantly looping before. Yes, yes, exactly.

I have different different things whitening, even some some of the treatments I don’t do myself, such as Botox, one of the associates do, and kind of look after each other. And I think whatever you put out there in the universe kind of finds its way back to you.

So. So what would you charge now for a composite veneer?

So composite veneer, I’m generally charging between 180 to £240 per veneer, depending on where I am. So it does make a difference. So generally up north, when I work in Leeds, Bradford area, it’s closer to £200. And if I’m working towards London you may be looking close to £300.

And you live where?

Oldham, Manchester.

I live in Oldham, Yeah, but you’re just going to call the whole time.

Of work a little bit between. So I spend most of my life on the 62 working between Leeds, Manchester and Bradford and occasionally I do. Once a week I’m travelling down to London.

So you haven’t even got a job in Oldham? No, that’s crazy.

It’s a hard job to do in your hometown. No pavement. I think everyone will be your mum’s best friend.

I, in a way, your hometown where you really know the people. Yeah. I found this. I did a job in Kent and the boss, he was an experienced guy, was an older guy, but he used to say he thinks the patients. I sometimes. I can’t believe you just said that. But because he was from the area, he got away. He got away. He knew. He knew what to say. So I wouldn’t discount it. Like when you end up. Might have to be older.

Sure. I think up there as well. Yeah. I grew up there. I studied in Nottingham. I did undergrad. In biomedical science. And then I found myself in Eastern Europe studying the industry Bulgarians.

Which was also how was it?

Which was absolutely awesome. A lot of people, I think when I mentioned Bulgaria like who are think 101 thoughts but it was amazing skied in the winters beaches in the.

Summers, so amazing.

Country 100% so I was very very and European dentists are generally I think they’re very very good stands.

Of the high.

Very high.

Was of course taught in English.

Yeah totally in English. The only thing what you needed to learn Bulgarian for was had communicate with patients, which was a hustle in itself, because the biggest challenge there was you had to find your own patients. So now where you’ve got to do 30 root canals in your final year, you’ve got to go out and find these patients.

How did you do that? Talk to people in bars. Simply talk to people. Talk to taxi drivers.

And talk to grandmas that look a little bit lonely. The street and of course, just strike up a conversation. And obviously dental care is needed wherever it is in the world. So and fortunately I didn’t find it a huge problem.

So when you got back to the UK, when you told people you studied in Bulgaria, did that count against you, do you feel?

No, I think to be honest with you, when I talked about the experience that had out there and clinically what we did, they were quite open to it. And I think the dental field is just one where there’s such a lack of dentists that it wasn’t it wasn’t a big issue. There were certain things that I felt like studying abroad maybe didn’t shine a light on certain factors, and that was a lot of the medical legal side of things and the clinical notes and the defensive dentistry, as people call it, that wasn’t shown.

And that’s what I was saying. We were saying before in a way that’s been an advantage for you because you get a lot of new graduates here who are so scared of getting sued and and, you know, that whole regulatory side. And if you weren’t sort of brought up on that, you couldn’t I mean, you could tell who’s a good friend of mine. He studied in Czech Republic and he puts all his success down to having not studied in Britain because he just goes there and does things without worrying too much about them. I guess it’s a balance, isn’t it, between that and yourself and only.

Time will tell.

Did you go on any of that sort of that kind of course, risk assessment or something?

No, I think the most eye opening thing for regarding that was conversations I had with my mentor about that, who was really caring and generally just gave me a heads up that certain things are acceptable. And generally it is a standard that you’ve got to meet up to and just don’t shoot yourself in the foot before you even had some fun with it. That’s exactly what he said. Because these things will happen. It’s just the nature of the game. But yeah, let’s go from that. And speaking about practising in your hometown, for example, the principle where, where I’m working my NHS job is strictly private. And he came in one day and I was showing him a case where a patient had quite a protruding tooth and I was being very like cautious around the whole thing. I just because you look like Nanny McPhee, I was like, I was gobsmacked, but.

That was the thing. That was the thing.

And she left it off and from day went on and did quite a lot of treatment on the lady. So I think you got to see the funny side in life, isn’t it always?

So you now to even some work in London as well?

Yeah, I do. I do do a little bit of mostly, mostly emergency dentistry but from within that as well. I do have patients that I really click with and I do decide that, you know what, I don’t mind treating you. Maybe I’ll see you every other week and we go through that.

So you do one day.

One or two, and I do two days a week on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday. And we’re normally working in London.

So how many days a week, You.

Know, so I work four days NHS and primarily I do every other week in Leeds and most weekends. So if I’m working Saturday morning in Leeds in the evening I I’ll be working in London.

I know that’s a bit too much, man. Do you think so? Yeah, Yeah, I do. You know why? Because I don’t look like Who am I to tell you what to do? Do you like? Right, But yeah, the dentistry takes it out of you. Yeah. And so, for instance, there would be no enlightened if I was a five day a week dentist even then. Back then, I was a four day a week dentist on the fifth day. The whole idea of Enlightened and everything came then. Yeah. Now I’m not saying you have to start in like you have to do what you like in your in your life and you need to get as much experience as quickly as you can and all that makes sense. Yeah. And I bet you’re meeting people in London and meeting people networking. Yeah, but don’t discount the fact that a day off could be beneficial to you. You know, there’s that classic cliche for less. If you work for days, you make more money than if you work 5 hours, because in the four days you’re super focussed.

You’re very right. You’re very sometimes they say you need to be a little bit bored to get them bright ideas.

Yeah. So in your situation it’s of four days NHS. I did two days. Nhs Yeah. And even if the other two days don’t get filled up straight away and the other two days work on getting a private job right?

Don’t know. It’s something I’m looking into right now. I’m looking for the exposure, but I’m also understand I don’t want to burn myself out. We all like to. A different anomaly than everyone else. But I think is so.

Easy when you’re young. It’s easy when you’re young, but you can easily fall into these traps and just keep on going like this. I remember I used to do six days a week and 12 hour days for ages and ages, and I just kept on telling him that you’re making a mistake here. But, you know, it’s not necessarily the more you work, the better you do necessarily. It’s that work smarter. But tell me, did you get the materials when you came on the Inspire Makers?

Oh, yes, I did.

Did you buy them yourself or did you pass practice?

My practice is very understanding.

And did you find that easy to persuade your practice to get them?

Generally, I think principals generally, if say to them, you’re going to make them money, they’re not going to say no, are they?

Is that how you framed it?

You got to say, I’m going to I’m planning to make X amount this how much cases I plan to do a month. I haven’t really stuck to you as much as I look. But I think that’s kind of coming into fruition more so now. And they’re generally very small. They’ve got insurance because I told them it’d be a good thing for us to do. So I think as long as your principle here that you’re looking to get some sort of return out of it, the quiet for it.

How uplifting, how much preaching do you do?

Well, I try to do in terms of with writing. And we’re trying to do at least I’m trying to do myself is six, seven cases a month. That’s why I get to.

Talk to my patients about the of teeth.

I’m trying to implement it a little bit more. I think the visual tools are very good, so I prefer to start the conversation themselves by also just kind of take one of them off a patient anymore. So that’s what I’m trying to implement first stuff because I always let them know that first thing that we need to do need to get your bones and teeth free of all the bad bacteria, and then we can talk about cosmetic stuff. They are very, very open to it. People are finding just conversations are much more easier to go this time.

Watching the course for the second time, Are you picking up things from it that you didn’t pick.

Up the personally? Definitely. I think the first time I was at the course, I was only a year into my career and a lot of things I wouldn’t say they went over my head, but those terms I wasn’t familiar with and stuff like that. So now it’s very much all these questions are getting answered. You only know what problems you have until when you actually try to apply and you realise, Oh, I’m having an issue here, maybe I’m getting a bit of lip on the composite here. How do I fix them depression? To be honest with you, he’s very responsive even on Instagram. So awesome.

Amazing. Well, of course, all the worry with me, another second timer on Smile Maker. But last time it was London. I remember.

It was. Yeah.

Do you live in London?

I don’t know.

What you.

Do. So I live just outside Manchester.

Oh, so when you come to London first, I just survived.

Just for fun.

Which one was.

It? It was about this time last year. December 2021.

Which hotel was it?

Oh.

Mayfair.

Mayfair.

Where do we go? Out.

We went to I think the w.

W that one. That was a good one. That was a good cause. It was a messy one. So what made you come again?

Oh, so I think after the last course that we went to, I left feeling very confident. I think the course is quite empowering in the sense that you go away with a sense that you can assess and correct your own work very easily. Even within the first hour of the course. We’ve gone through principles of smart design. And for me, that’s like the foundation of being able to understand and correct and look out and assess and really sort of like understand where you need to make the small adjustments to go from an okay composite composite case to it looks you deliver what the patient is expecting and what they like.

So did you start doing some concept? How soon after the course of you.

Started doing that much? When I first start the course, I had a couple of cases lined up just after I booked them and I sort of planned it that way. So it’s used in the course. I had like three or four cases ready to go to do that. Yeah, and honestly, just the level of confidence going into it. And then I, I even recorded on my phone afterwards like a little mini podcast and myself. Okay, so I did this. Well, I don’t post it anyway. So it was just for myself to listen back to you, to then have that confidence of like, okay, I’ve reflected. And then going into the next case, what I do that I liked, what can I do better? And then just going from that, I felt like, okay, I really feel settled and I just wanted to come back to the course. Just as a refresher for the little things I didn’t pick up last time to go over the foundations again and just sort of like consolidate what.

Kind of job you got.

I work in a mixed practice, so it’s mixed NHS and some private most of the private that I get is off of my NHS cohort patients. So it’s really just about delivering like the holistic general dental care and then also offering additional options to the. People who have already built a relationship with. And I feel like that’s quite a nice way to go by, especially for young associate.

How many years out of you?

I graduated in 2014. Okay, So yeah, and then I did a couple of hospital years as well. So I did Max and periods.

What did you think of it?

I enjoyed it. I had a really good I.

Went to Manchester.

I was in Liverpool, I went to graduate level, I did a year in hall and then I did Aintree and Alder. Hey, I loved the years that I was in hospital. I knew I didn’t want to stay in hospital indefinitely. I think for me personally, it gave me a lot of confidence, not even necessarily with clinical things, just like the soft skills, the decision making, the communication.

What’s it been through, a max factor job? Nothing. Nothing fazes.

You 100%. So you do get that sort of like just general confidence I feel like is invaluable.

Get that sort of. Oh, shit.

Oh, I don’t know what the hell to do. 100%. Yeah, 100% to.

Scare the hell.

Out of me. Yeah, 100%. Well, luckily, the year that I did it, we were in a really good group and we all felt exactly the same at the same time. Support consultants in the registrars we used to for people feeling like that. It was a very good year in that they were very supportive. You’ve got a lot of hands on experience and you would literally have a consultant over your shoulder watching you to be like, Do this, don’t do it like that, doing this. And you would have so much confidence in independence by the end of it. You feel like I can run a list.

But did you not have like one call in casualty cancer patients and flaps and all? Yeah, absolutely. I felt so.

I was.

So out of my depth.

Yeah.

So other than X commander. But I found the nurses were teaching me.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You go on the ward and people would look after each other. It was kind of like a pay it forward thing. You’d be having a really bad day. Someone would look after you and see someone else having a bad day. You look after them. I had a great first year doing that.

So now you’ve been qualified, what, six, seven years? And you’ve you’ve got these like these experiences doing that stuff. Doing this is your vision, your goal now going forward to go into private dentistry or is it not you happy?

I mean, definitely. I think that off the back of the experiences that I’ve had doing the hospital, doing different courses and investing in myself, I think that I think that’s most dentists trajectory to sort of like start increasing the level of options and things that you can do for your patients and really sort of like just building on the skills and the knowledge and the scope of practice that I already have. That’s I think, what everyone’s goal should be.

So that is your goal? Yeah. Yeah. But do you think that there’s going to be like an avalanche or there already is starting an avalanche of associates who want private jobs?

Of course.

Yeah. And so the sooner you get one, the better. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, I’m not saying you’re taking too long of it. You’re not. You think you’re doing what you do. You look happy and you’re doing a great job. But I know in two years time the competition for private jobs is going to be even more than it is now.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

I think the way to associate your principles going to listen to this.

I mean, for me, I think that if I’d have gone straight into a private job, straight out of vet and or vet plus one.

There’s loads of experiences, you.

Know, now I feel like a completely different person to who I was then. And I feel like I can bring so much more value now, having already built. I mean, people have different learning.

Quite ways of learning.

But to me that experience formed the way I practice now, and I don’t know how I could have done without it.

So fair enough. But going forward, that is your goal, you’re saying?

Yeah, definitely. I want to be able to, I think, just personally go into dentistry. You want to do your best to provide the best and the best vision practice ownership.

Is that on your horizon?

Yeah, it’s funny you ask about that. I think that I longterm I would love to. I think that they and probably a lot of people can relate to this in the sense that as an associate you don’t have control over everything and how things are done. And that can be frustrating at times, especially if it’s sort of person who is very much like, I don’t necessarily follow or do things just because someone tells me to. I like to question things and be like, Why are we doing this? Or could we do this better where we see inefficiencies and think we’re wasting time here? This could be a much better version of what it is, and practice ownership would be a dream. I would honestly love to do that down the line and it’s one.

Of the main reasons people start practices isn’t to make more money, it’s to get full control. Yeah, And and then as a principle, I think one of the best things you can do is to hand over more control to associates. So that they don’t have that feeling. And sometimes the smallest thing can can piss you off. Not being given a nurse or getting the agency nurse or something, whatever it is. For me, I used to have a bugbear about intraoral cameras. Like, why wouldn’t the principle get into all cameras? It just makes sense. I went and got my own after a while. But nowadays I’ve been practising for ten years. Nowadays, associates are expected to buy a lot more of their own equipment. So if you’ve done that, have you bought your own stuff? Did you buy our composite?

I have not got the composite yet. And part of that is exactly because you realise that there are things that you can’t do with a composite. It is literally the only microfilm. So.

Yeah. So are you going to have to buy that yourself, or is it possible?

I mean, I could approach my principal and all the management and ask them and have a conversation about, okay, well, I’m willing to talk. This is why where I work is, is more corporate. I could definitely I mean, are flexible in terms of buying materials. For me, I like just independent. I don’t really like if I’m going to have it, I’m going to use it. I’ll get it myself and I’ll charge for it. And that’s just the way I work. Yeah. And then it’s mine. I’d have to share it. I don’t have to.

Pay a nurse. Is your nurse always the same person as that person?

Change? Yeah. I mean, so when I started the job I have now, me and my nurse, who is a trainee, we both started at the same time. And so I very much felt like we’re a little team sort of trader, and she’s just about to qualify at moment. At the moment we do have a little bit of a mix where we work with different people, especially when you own your own equipment. That can be frustrating. If so, you’re very like, okay, when you go to Datacom, make sure you bring that back, match how you do this and then bring it back. You don’t want things disappearing and going on. So it’s just you have to learn to work around being in a mixed practice and having different nurses and everything’s work around me.

So how many days a week you work?

I work full time. Five days, five days.

Long days.

I mean, it’s 9 to 5.

So just I was just talking to someone else about this. Why don’t you work four days?

I did. Well, I’m contracted five days and they want me. Well, yeah, to me, full time really is four days. And I found that when I did four days, I wasn’t any less productive than it was in five. And if anything, I’m coming to work a better version of myself and more refreshed. I’ve had my own personal time to myself and I think really four days is enough.

Yeah, no, I’d agree with that. Are you coming tomorrow as well? Yes. Are you coming tonight as well? Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So I’m so glad that you decided to come again.

Yeah. No, honestly, it’s been good.

To have you watching it again. Watching it a second time. Have you learnt other stuff?

Definitely. Definitely, yeah. Last time I came, I sat thinking, Oh, I’m going to take notes, I’m going to do good. And I think actually that makes you miss things. Whereas now I’ve maybe a couple of things on my phone, but it’s really just listening. I’ve got more context to be able to apply things and I’m picking up the little bits and things, and especially after having done a couple of cases, it’s like, Oh, that’s why I do it like this, or This is something I could do slightly better or make it more predictable and consistent and get a better result.

Have you ever read a book twice? Yeah. So if you read a book twice, you’ve just got two different frames of mind. That’s true. Yeah. And you get different things out of the same book.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And repetitions. Huge repetitions. You I’m, I’m thick. I’ve seen this 100 times. I still learn. Still learn every time. Anyway. Brilliant. Have you? Yeah. Thank you so much for.

Having you back.

I’ve got with me Georgianna, who’s our head of sales. Been with us for 11.

Years in January.

Ten year.

Anniversary.

Wow.

We should have a key.

So you. Do you remember your first mass of needed?

Yeah, it was a long time ago, and it was a one day format. We were doing the time. Yeah, the enamel sessions. And it was in Birmingham Dental School.

With the.

With.

In the in the new dental school. Now the old dental school before they built the new. Yeah.

The first one was in the old one.

When the first time you saw it. What did you.

Think? I believe it was 13. No, because we’ve done some some Hands-On courses before with.

Jason.

With Jason Smithson and Corky Willhite. Yeah, but I was surprised of the level or the Depeche was teaching, considering how young he was.

Yeah. Yeah, he was younger. It was. I think back then, he was like four years out of dental.

Yeah, exactly.

And I remember I remember at that time people contacting me saying, I don’t want this kid to teach me, you know, someone younger than them teaching him. But that needs to be our challenge at the time.

It was really fun that people that did both courses were surprised by the quality of the lecture as well. They didn’t feel like they were losing anything, although he was like one of his first lectures.

Yeah. So you’re more in touch with the delegates than than I am because, you know, you call them before and after and all that. And what do you see? Is that the main thing they get out of this?

Oh, they get a lot of confidence, first of all. Especially if they’re younger dentists or a lot of therapists just run with it. So after therapists attend the course, a lot of them become users of the enamel of the cosmetic products. And they it’s a reoccurring order. So they’re doing very well for themselves. They get the confidence of just going out there and doing composite work.

Yeah, but for me, like the motivation of people coming mean we look at the crowd and generally it’s about three quarters associates and a quarter principles. The motivation for coming to this cause. Generally when I talk to people, a lot of it is about getting private jobs. And, you know, wanting to progress their careers forward. So. But you’re very much responsible for the whole experience side of the thing as well. But when when you call people up afterwards, do they do they say they have a good time? Do they think it’s too heavy? Because sometimes it is heavy.

The first day it’s a bit it’s a bit challenging because it’s a long day. But they never say, oh, they should have made the lecture shorter or easier. They are just saying it’s a lot of information. And because we do offer people the chance to come back again and watch the lecture, they feel like it’s a gain for them. So they are happy. It’s better to have more information and have less and they can always come back and just refresh my memory. So they do like that.

Part.

And I like everyone. Everyone else I’ve interviewed has been someone who’s come again for the second time and I think it’s valuable because you do the treatment a few times and then you’ve got new questions.

Exactly. Exactly.

But, you know, the thing I find interesting is that we’re so familiar with the terms, but you’ve got to keep reminding yourself that when someone arrives for the first time, the terms, the concepts are all brand new to them, and because we’re so familiar with them, we kind of take it for granted and for someone to come again another time seems like a big commitment to get a second weekend to it. And when I think back to when I really internalised it, I might have come 20 times before I fully understood what was going on. But for someone with a non dental background like you, you now know more about teeth than a lot of people. What’s your reflection on dental world?

It has changed a lot since I’ve been with you guys for ten years and it has changed a lot in the last ten years. Yeah, because I feel like the competitiveness of dentists, it’s more. Is the primary focus of of then then this. Today, like Kunal says in the lecture, a lot of dentists are competing with each other and they’re doing work for other dentists to appreciate rather for them than their patients. So they do focus a lot on getting appreciation from from other dentists.

Because of social.

Media. Yeah, exactly. And some people don’t put themselves out there because of this, because they are thinking other than this are going to to judge their job and they are missing out on marketing opportunities. They can attract more patients to their practice and put them on on the market more for the specific cosmetic work that they are doing.

Yeah. And what about with when you we give each of the delegates that enlightened kid when they they do their first enlightened treatment, you find that they’re surprised, pleasantly surprised. What are they what’s the story when you follow up on that first kit that they’re using?

It’s usually the surprise is when they actually get the kit, not when they actually use it, because they know enlightened works and the light never disappoints and we always deliver results. Is the surprise that they have that free kid to either treat themselves or treat a family member. So that’s the nice part where they can offer somebody a bit of joy without.

Either, Yeah, if it was me, I would treat a patient, not a family member, but I feel like most of them treat a family.

Or themselves.

You know, we have this issue that sometimes we get. We get How often do you think it is we get? Dentists call us up and say, I want to get enlightened kit for myself, and then they’re not using it on their patients.

It happens quite a lot. Yeah, and this frustrates me a bit because if an item is good enough for you and if life is good enough for your family, it should be good enough for your patient as well, rather than you being focussed on how much or how little you’re spending on a product you should be focussed on. What’s the best product on the market for your patients and to offer the best product that you can for your patients, not the one that makes you the most money and or it costs you the least.

Yeah, but I mean, look, some some practices that the profile of the patients different. But some some practices are fully NHS practices for the sake of the argument. And so people might think what my patients wouldn’t want. Hi. Hi.

How do you.

Know what I do?

How do you know?

So when I’m with you, I basically agree with you.

This is just making assumptions and projecting your judgement on what people want and what people can afford. So. Exactly. So you shouldn’t make this assumption then you shouldn’t project what your beliefs are on your patients because your patient, a patient that you might think would be willing to spend £10,000 on a mouth rehab, maybe it’s not there yet, or a patient that you think 2000 £3,000 for a treatment is a lot. He would make an effort to finance going to a finance program and have that thing done for him or her.

Plus, most a lot of our big users are NHS practice’s anyway.

Yeah, exactly. So you never know. Don’t just make assumptions.

Yeah. So now last night we went to this flesh and buns and we tried hard on the social side. But Johnson, my frustration when sometimes someone doesn’t turn up to the social side. But I feel like the social side is just as much education as the more social side.

I totally agree with it, especially because it happens a lot of these courses where everybody comes to shop around the bit as well. Associates come to shop around for practices and jobs. Exactly. And principals come to shop around for associates because if the associate comes to these courses and invest time and money in themselves is the kind of person that you want to have in your practice working for you. So this social part could be that extra boost that your career might need or your practice might need.

Last night, I feel like most came last night. Yes, there’s maybe three or four. Yeah.

Everybody, I think like very few people didn’t come just because they were or had to go home because they were living far away. But most people did come last night.

Maybe. Maybe we need to emphasise the social side even more. I think that we kind of do already.

I think it’s just time and location that that makes a difference.

I don’t mean I mean there was one couple, they came from Wales and then they said we’re in London and we want to go and see Soho and all that.

Yeah.

So I get it, I get it. Come to, come to the different town. You might want to do something else, but I don’t know, like last night I, I put a girl in touch with Kunal and he pretty much offered the job last night, so.

Exactly.

This is what I mean. Yeah, exactly. So. And today another, another guy. And of course he’s got lots of practices. He said, Oh, is it okay if I go on the forum and ask people on the forum if they want jobs. Because like what you said is right, it’s a self-selecting group isn’t it? Someone comes invest time and effort and money into something like this. That’s the kind of associate you want.

Exactly.

So I’ve got just by two years and years and years you’ve been with us Enlightened, and I think you came to one of the first ever really small makeovers.

I used to run it in some practices. I think I came to someone’s dental practice somewhere in London. Nothing you did.

Oh, we did. One a year practice.

Maybe. How was.

That the one you.

Came to remember the area? Yeah, I was in a.

Practice part of town. People can tell.

You.

Three of those. So course you practice is one. When I. When I hear the name of your practice, it just reminds me of years ago Enlightened and a practice that came out of nowhere. And suddenly you guys were doing loads of Enlightened. But what is it about your practice? What is it about what you do that makes? Where is it?

Yeah, yeah, I think obviously so. People want six now though.

Yeah. 6 to 10 years ago.

You know, I personally have always done whitening for myself. Like as soon as I qualified, I remember one of the first things I did was whitening. And so I believed in it, my staff all following me or did whitening. So we all believed in whitening. And so we were happy to to sell. I mean, nowadays with social media, like, oh, I qualified in oh six, things have changed with social media and now everything is about selling. But back then people didn’t want to be sold to as much, so it was more.

Comfortable talking about it. I was cause you were instructors.

I believed in it myself and the maintenance was low and you know, your support once I started doing Enlightened made me feel so much more comfortable treating the patients, knowing that if something wasn’t quite right or wasn’t as good as what the patient wanted, I could call you, and which I did. And, you know, I had the backing to do this or do this. And so that just gave us the confidence. And then slowly, slowly, like now, I’d say I don’t really do any composite or bonding on anterior teeth without whitening. I can’t remember the last time I did Invisalign without whitening.

So how much of your practice is now cosmetic? Is it a lot of it.

I’d say 50 to 60% Is is cosmetic. Yes. So a fair amount.

The position bit is that in the town?

Not really, to be honest.

Well, you positioned it as a family practice.

A family, definitely a family practice, I believe really take care of patients and people. They’ll send other people to you. So and also I find that the cases where someone comes in free consultation, Invisalign whitening bonding, fine, they’re good. But the ones who I’ve known for three or four years and now they want that treatment, it’s just so much easier. Like sometimes the.

Trust is already there.

Trust is there. But also I find some principles will go against this. But I’ll sometimes call a patient, you know, can you can we move you a little bit early or maybe tomorrow life If the baby is not well or have an appointment, it just means that it’s so much easier for me. Those patients like me, I like them. And likewise, if they call me and say, You know what? Can I move to another day? Yeah, sure. I’ll move them to lunchtime, the day after or whatever, for the short term appointment. So in both ways it goes. So I think that’s why I keep it as a general practice, because I like those general patients, I like looking after them and when they do have the cosmetic work, I think it’s just so much nicer and easier to.

Work with it. So is Epping the part of Essex that you imagine as like the sort of the classical Essex, or is it.

I think it’s a little bit we, we try and pitch it as a little bit higher or higher in. So you’ve got like Chigwell out there, they’re very well known words that you see on TV and things like that. Yeah, exactly. So but Epping is just outside of those areas, historically a slightly older clientele, which is changing now, but so it’s kind of a bit of both. So we get those patients from those areas coming into us as well, but we try and pitch it as though we’re a little bit different from that kind of billing practice.

And how about bonding, if you know, bonding, increasing, people ask you to load.

Yeah, so much. I’ll do two or three cases a day or bonding now after the course, probably to spend a bit longer, charge a bit more. But yeah, everyone is wanting bond even older. But I’ll do patients 80. I’ve known patients in their nineties, I’ve done bonding for age one day with chips and wear and and it you know just cosmetic as well not even functional I’ve done whitening I’ve got a 96 year old guy I did my life whitening. Yeah. Yeah. And he had three teeth he wanted to denture whitening so we did a lighting case for him. So again amazing. Like, I think that’s brilliant. Like it’s still taking care of yourself.

You came to Depeche about six years ago and now you see him today. Did you notice any difference in style?

I think the self assurance you can tell you listen to him and even then it’s amazing knows this stuff. But now obviously with his accreditation and stuff as well is that name is authority. You listen to him and he just automatically whatever he says is is right and you can. Yeah. Just the way he talks is Yeah. He says you can see the change, you can see that confidence which, which is great.

So listen I’ll better let you get back to that shame. He didn’t make it last night. I know. You should come again.

Just for the next time. I will all come again. Hopefully, I’ll appreciate the day. Appreciate the weekend. Nothing to.

Do. The way I think about it is if someone gives us their weekend. Yeah, that’s all we can do. Give it up here. Then it’s up to us to make sure that was worth it.

It shows. I learn from you not just the dentistry, but also how. How you are with us. Right? I was saying to you yesterday, the lunch that you put on yesterday was the best lunch I ever had. And of course I left the breakfast and everything is just that. You go out of your way even yesterday, like 530, and I’ve still got an hour’s lecture and it’s just like, you know, nothing’s too much as you go out of your way, which you do. And I learned that and I, I try and do that for my patients. Obviously, sometimes it’s hard with lots of patients. I do try and try.

And do you plan to put more practices or you you just have that one that you make amazing.

I think I’ll be 14 January looks like think people say I don’t feel it sometimes my plan would be I think I would like it within the next five years. I’d like another practice closer to home where I would work a little bit more, maybe go and pick up the kids after school, drop them off and go back to work or whatever. Yeah, slow down or you just be that I’m about 40 minutes from home. Oh, yeah. So if I was five, 10 minutes from home, like I’ve set up a school. So where do you live? I live in just outside of Brentwood, Sheffield. So. Yeah, and that’s a kids get a bit older. I think it’d be nice to to be a bit closer. So that would be the plan. Let’s see how it goes.

Hopefully you’re going to get back. You better get there before you miss the next bit. Thanks so much for doing that now. So I’ve got Martina Hodgson from the dental Architects at MSN. Finally, it’s been it’s been a long time coming.

I know. Yeah, it’s great to be here. It’s come for so long.

Why did you come to London? Not Manchester.

I got in the dates. Nothing particular.

But you had something last night with the fancy.

So there was a future of dentistry with FMC on Thursday night. So this is like the who’s who of dentistry.

That was just for the young ones that I know.

Well, I’m not a young one. So.

So was it not full of just like.

It was.

Two year qualified people.

No, no, no. There was like, was there really Rona and. Oh really. Yeah. So it’s good. Yeah. Yeah. So we had like round table panel discussions fuelled by lots of prosecco and like constant nibbles. So that was.

Fun. So you do mostly Invisalign? Yes. Yourself as well? Yes. It’s not just your everyone.

Yes.

Yeah. So what do you do about the bonding at the moment?

I do a lot of bonding. Oh, do you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s why I’ve come, because I do a lot of bonding, and I think it’s really. You need to constantly up your skills. Yeah, And it’s great, because if you come to something like this, even though I do a lot of bonding, you you just pick up those little tips all the time.

But, you know, in your set up on our podcast, you said you’ve got one clinician who’s in charge of the case.

Yes.

You’ve got one clinician does the IPR. Yeah. And what else?

One attachment.

Is that different person to the idea.

They can do the iPod touch phones, bonded retainer fit and.

Then who does the bonding? The one who’s in charge of the case?

Yeah, the one in charge of the case would do the bonding.

Yeah. So that’s interesting. So how what percentage of your cases end up with bonding? Most of them.

I would say probably 90%, because when you’re doing adult orthodontics, you and the reason that you’re doing the orthodontics is because there’s a problem with the occlusion and it might be causing tooth wear and you get a lot of tooth wear sort of cases come through. So nine out of ten need a little bit bonding at the end. And, you know, that’s I think sometimes people think it’s because you’re not straightening the teeth properly and it’s like a mask for that. To me, you know, I have such high levels that we need to achieve with our orthodontics, and it’s not there at the end to make the teeth look straight because you can’t straighten them properly. It’s there because you have got this tooth wear or sometimes there’s this trend. Now patients don’t like the shape of their lateral incisors or.

The more.

Square. Yeah, or the canines are two points here. This is dentists. We think they’ll actually is beautiful and we like their pointy canines. But you know, there is this trend out there now that people want to change the shape of their teeth.

When did this cosmetic revolution happen in Yorkshire?

In Yorkshire?

Like it’s a new thing.

And I don’t know. I mean, I’m 20, there’s so.

Many new practices opening in Leeds.

Yeah, there is a lot opening in Leeds I think. I don’t know why there’s, there’s a lot of good practitioners in Leeds.

Yeah. I mean it’s a big population and I just even have thought of Leeds as a like a cosmetically orientated town. But it is.

I think it’s very much Yeah, yeah. My patients, you know, like, you know I’ve got two very different practices so.

Wakefield.

One is this old coal mining village, a few terraced houses not together and what is it? Leeds But the patients are the same. They want the same things. They want the same outcome out of their treatment.

I mean, maybe. Maybe I’m talking like old school before the internet world. Yeah.

But when I qualify was 2001. Yeah. And there wasn’t composite bonding. Yeah, it was just putting composite on a tooth. It wasn’t a thing like it is now. Yeah. So I think, you know, when I started doing a lot of Invisalign, that was the time when I thought I really need to upscale on the bonding because it finishes the case of so beautifully. And that is the wow moment at the end of the case.

What can I say? This is very true. Yeah. And you know one thing, he does this thing where you pay for the Invisalign, but you get the bleaching and bonding as part of the Invisalign and his the whole thing about it is he wants everyone to have bond, doesn’t want people not to have the bonding.

Yeah.

What have you picked up from depression. What’s been your sort of thoughts on the course itself.

I think I think with these courses that you pick, it’s great to see the gold standard of everything that should be done. And you know, every dentist is different and every dentist wants to be a different type of dentist and it can be confusing. And the lecture he’s just given was, you know, yes, you can do ten composite veneers in 2 hours if you want, but the results aren’t going to be same as if you spend four or 5 hours on that patient and you’re treating them to a gold standard because you can’t treat in 2 hours five, ten composite veneers to a gold standard. You just can’t. But young dentists see this and they think they have to achieve this. Yeah, that’s fine, if that’s what you want to do, if that’s the kind of dentistry you want to carry out, but you need to decide where are you on that spectrum? Where where are you happy to sit?

The other thing is it’s a very unforgiving material. That’s the problem with it. You know, it’s something that looks like nothing ends up being a massive issue not long later. And it’s been a it’s a funny thing because he spends a lot of the court kind of persuading people not to do the treatment as well either. And I think I think what you’ve got to get right is the right thing at the right time with, you know, dare I say.

Consent for the right person? Yeah, because it depends on consent.

I mean, your patient needs to understand what they’re getting themselves into. Absolutely. And I never thought I’d be a stickler for consent. Right. But actually. It’s real, isn’t it? It’s something that isn’t going to last forever unless it’s done very, very well. And even then, it’s not going to last forever.

Exactly. But consent is not a checkbox exercise. Consent is what builds a good practice. You know, a really thriving practice. Is that conversation that you have right at the beginning and you’re not surprising your patient at the end by saying, oh, by the way, this is only going to last 3 to 7 years and it’s going to chip and it’s going to stay, you know, you need to it’s about educating your patients. That’s what consent is to me.

It’s one thing to look, you’re you’ve got a bunch of sort of superpowers. Right. And and I know, I know it’s sort of an unfair question to say which is your key superpower. Right. Because I’m sure the treatments are brilliant. I’m sure the environment’s delicious. I’m sure the people you pick and motivate. But what would you say?

I know what my superpower is. My superpower is my ability to create an amazing team. Really? Yeah. I think. I think if you can do that and get the right people in and inspire people, yeah, I think the rest follows. You don’t have to be the most brilliant dentist in the world. And you know, and I saying this to some of the younger dentists and they’re like, I’m not good enough to do private dentistry. My skills aren’t good enough to do private dentistry. And I’m saying to them, private dentistry is not just about the materials you use and the skills that you have with your hands. Private dentistry is about the way that you treat your patients.

How you make them feel.

Exactly. That’s exactly what I was saying. It’s how you make your patients feel. That’s private dentistry. They don’t know how good your posterior composites are.

So let’s break it down. If your superpower is recruitment and sort of making people sell, selling the dream to your team. Yeah. What is it about? I mean, is it just that the kind of person you are or like, you know, let’s say I’m a I’m someone that you want to hire. How is it that you can persuade me to do what you want me to do?

Yeah, I think it’s explaining. It’s. It’s knowing who you are as a person. So me understanding what my values are, defining those values. And these are my values. Do you want to come along for the ride or not? Because if they’re not your values, you’re not. We’re not going to align. It’s never going to work. So my values are excellence, growth and to have fun. So if you want to come and do that with me, that’s fine. If you don’t want to be excellent, if you don’t want to grow, if you don’t have fun, go somewhere else because you’ll fit in better there.

It’s interesting what you’re saying. First know yourself and then number two, put that over in a sort of a simple way. Yeah. And then I guess number three, deliver on that, right?

Yes. Can deliver.

It’s a big piece, isn’t it? Because some people are really good salespeople. And when I say sales, I’m selling dentistry. Just good with timing, good with talking, but not good on execution or delivery. It takes both sides to build trust and a long term team.

And all that. And it takes a lot of hard work to get those systems in place. Yeah.

But we were talking yesterday about that tech hitting the ground running and whether you were going to do more and you were saying you just want to take a little breath. Yeah, but I see a dental doctor in every, every big city for sure. For sure. I really mean that. And what we were saying yesterday was, whatever, whatever you’ve managed to do with this team, you could do with a bigger team, with finding the right. If you if your superpower is finding people and motivating them, I think you should go like a scale on me. I really do. Really. And sometimes it takes someone else from the outside to tell.

You that I took your words on board what you said to me. I said, I have really thought about them. And I think my personality, as we discussed before on the podcast, is very much like, Go, go, go. What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? But actually, sometimes to achieve something like the dental architects, I do actually want to sit and enjoy it and I want to make it as good as it can be, and I want to get all my systems and processes so we find the way that we team the track and train the team, the way we train the dentists there, the way that they grow. And once you’ve nailed that in one practice, then yeah, of course it’s.

Dead easy to.

Replicate, but you’ve got to get.

It right. Anything. It’s very, very, very. The funny thing is most other practices will take three four years to get to where you’ve gotten to already. So in a way I’m sort of accelerating that organisation.

But remember, it’s 20, 21 years to get to that point. I know how long. It’s nine months.

Okay. But it’s.

Having the experience of the other practice and learning and seeing what works and what doesn’t.

Work.

I get it. So it’s people, if they think it’s overnight, it’s. It’s not.

Overnight. Of course not. I think it’s nothing worthwhile. Is is it? I’ve got Matty Parsons with me at Milli Smile Makeover. Matty. You came on this one. Makerbot. When? 26,080 September. Yeah, well, that’s pretty much pre-COVID. And you told me that was the first time you did a composite course. Yeah. And since then, if you fast forward to today, how much of your work is composite that all of you know and cost? How did you do general dentistry? Yeah, but the composites been the springboard to the rest. You know, a lot of patients come in wanting composite and with also Boston or whatever. So it’s like the compass is always the first step. It’s almost always what the patient is asking about this being the composite or maybe ortho on composite. So Matthew and I have found the Iran Wales game. We’re we’re a sports bar by ourselves because I think anyone else in Manchester is interested in Iran versus Wales. But I’m looking out for Will. Will they or won’t they sing the anthem? It’s just started. The Welsh are singing in their traditional Welsh voice choir sort of tradition. So while we wait for that, you’ve been on loads of composite courses now. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, do you continue to go on? I mean, you went recently. You went with Monique and Aretha. Yeah. So did you, like, go you continue to go on courses, even though I feel like you’ve nailed it. You never. You learn something new for everyone. Yeah. Jan Needham and Monica.

Tabitha, you know, learn lessons, learn how to party in the beta. Yeah, a little bit. But learn. So what’s. And he’s, he’s fantastic. And he’s a brilliant teacher and learn a lot when to Barcelona and so on. Yeah. Fantastic. And everyone does things so differently. So but so yeah. Speak up. So everyone does things so differently that you, you pick up tidbits from every person that you then implement and you make improvements to what you do. Yeah. So it’s funny because we get this call quite often. Quite often someone calls the office and says, Sell me the course. Yeah. Like I’m picking between you and this. Yeah. Tell me. Tell me why yours is better. And I think, like, look, composites, the material you use on every single patient, but by a long way, the material you use the most right, most versatile material we’ve got, it’s the most important. It’s the one we use on everyone. So if let’s say you’re now saying you want to get good, they’re not singing the anthem and that guy is that guy is that guy. Let’s say let’s say you want to get good at good at 5050 some awesome. Yeah, some of them are. Let’s say you want to get good at composite, right? If I was a dentist now, if I was a practising dentist now, I would, I would, I would go on every single composite course going because, because, you know, like you said, you learn from everyone. So tell me how what would you say to someone about dips is make a naturally talented you know he’s been probably earmarked as a superstar in this world from early on at dental school so things and I think that’s probably you know completely honestly that’s a double edged sword because in some ways he’s not rehashing what he’s been taught.

You know, he’s kind of wired in a way that he can actually do this. So he figures out a way to do things and then teaches up is quite novel. The double edged sword lecture is that because he can do it? It’s probably a call with other educators who may be weren’t as much a natural and gone and learn these skills with obviously some natural ability. They know how it feels to not be able to do it and they’re able to step back a little bit. So and this is exactly why everyone teaching is so different because in different places and and that’s why you learn such different things from different people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there’s no great when someone comes up and says, Tell me why your course is better. It’s not better. It’s different. Yeah, it’s a really difficult one. So I’m sorry. So I taught, I taught our team to say to that person, they’re all good. Go and gone. All of them. Yeah. Yeah. And you see, we have people come again and again. To many small makers, I think it’s, you know, there’s a lot of information and then you’ve got to do the work and then you’ve got new questions, right? And I’ve seen it 100 times that you’ve been at least ten times.

Yeah, Yeah. I still learn it. Still learn when that’s when I look at it. Because you’re in a different mind frame yourself when you know when you’re watching. Tell me about your work now. Is your patients your social media? Are you happy with the fact that you’re bringing in composite work and composites the beginning of it? Because Depeche himself, he’s moving more into like full mouth stuff as a dentist. And are you going to stay at this sort of at this point or are you going to move move it in different directions? I’m way beyond what I ever thought I would be. Really? Yeah. God. Yeah. And if he again, he probably knew or thought, especially from a really Dental family. Yeah. He’s got elder brothers who are dentists. And my only experience with dentistry was my own dentist as a kid. So that for me was the pinnacle. And I didn’t even really know there was private dentistry, cosmetic dentistry until I got out there. And so for me, really seeing it on online, it’s funny. It’s like my, my, my dentist was on Harley Street. Yeah. So I didn’t move, but my dentist was on. I knew he was. That was a kid, right? I know. I just thought that’s what a dentist is. Yeah. Then I went in for my first job. I was like, What the hell is this? I couldn’t believe it.

I couldn’t believe it. This was like, what a dental place. Polar opposite. My job was amazing. Practice. Roughest practice. Doing the course today. Yeah. Well, it’s great. Looks like such a fun game. I’m going to talk to the nicest guy. But look at this lovely mixed practice. And for me, it was a big seventh surgery outfit that had been relatively recently done. My practice growing up was the three surgery number that, you know, the waiting room was like a bit dated when I was going there as a kid, and it’s changed since and left. But for me, I thought, Oh, this is nice and you probably won’t get it done. What is this? I hate it. I couldn’t believe that that was that was my life. And then the ideal is the NHS itself. Yeah, it’s third party like, you know, you’ve got you, the patient, someone telling you someone else, a third party telling you what you can and can’t do. It’s just changed recently. I know, but there’s still rules and regulations, right? Yeah, it sounds like it’s improved. Oh, really? That’s been split into three. Oh, yeah. Sounds. Sounds better to me. It’s amazing the number of people we just. We just ask the room, like, why are you here? And the number of people who come on this course and tell me the reason they’re coming on this course is to find a private job. Yeah, Yeah. And we know we’ve got it’s almost a bad situation in dentistry now where none of the young dentists want to work in the NHS.

It is. Yeah. And so, I mean, has it changed since you were a young associate as far as did you have those lofty goals? I mean, you’ve ended up as a fully private, super duper composition guy. Do you remember the transition from thinking, Oh, this is my lot NHS to I’m going to look at other things? Yeah, like how did that moment have a ring to it? And I’ve never thought about this. I was kind of I, I was really scared of jumping too early, I think. And I, I was mixed about this and I, how many years we had mixed practice and pop out of 13 stopped seeing NHS and it was about COVID, you know, it was just before COVID. But when I say COVID, I mean that three month closure, because it was not long after I’ve actually been in the NHS that then binned off. That’s a terrible time. But it stops in many patients that I that then. And the only way of making income for three months is NHS. But I just. But did you, did you say right I’m going to upskill now. Yeah. It was so it happened naturally and I hate the word but organically and it was never an intentional thing. It grew and it developed and it became better and better. And what I wasn’t ready to stop seeing NHS until I had like 6 to 12 months of patients.

And from that security point of view, and then I wasn’t ready to stop seeing kind of general private work until I had again take the NHS out of the equation, build up again so that you have a fully private and still 6 to 12 months in demand. And then you got the general as in Instagram. Yeah. So I think that probably the the fact that I wasn’t in a rush to become this cosmetic and still as private dentist is probably what allowed me to build up the buffet, which allowed me to go to the perfection. So when did you when did you decide you were going to be, rather than a consumer of Instagram, a producer, like a creator on Instagram? Because that’s a decision that’s a big decision in itself to put stuff out regularly of a high standard. It was my first my first set of souvenirs I did after the course I took before after is just, you know, what makes mommy. Yes. She hasn’t started Instagram until that point. So. Really? Yeah. For after like a written, like a ring flush camera. Who did the dairy? Dairy did the marketing? Yeah. Yeah. So he didn’t mention that he was telling us about, like, his reception, like psychologically profile patients, which is just from Australia, was in town that particular day. And I just said, Me, you want to do the marketing. So on the Instagram, did someone, did someone tell you, was it obvious? Was Mike and Maxim a brother and the wife? Because so the Practice had an Instagram page.

And so I think for after we were out with Dentist that night, what it was might have been a couple of my ended on sister can’t remember exactly what it was. But anyway, I had the before and after on my phone, you know, patient conference out the window showed a couple of the people I was here for uni and one of his colleagues is doing invites and the feedback was good, which surprised me. Normally you’re a bit scared to show people your work. Yeah, I was when and it was more along the lines of because at the time as well, Consequences had a bit of a bad rep because a lot of people were mass producing them and doing just, you know, no matter what the patient presented us, they were getting ten times it. Yeah. This like stigma still goes on a little bit. Yes. Yeah. And you know, to show a case where it was I think eight, seven days and it’s justifiable on a patient who had cirrhosis and a bit of modelling and said listen tunes and she tried writing in but really couldn’t hack it. So the back story there was like, you know, a good case for composite and generally good feedback. So it kind of gave me the confidence to ask, Well, I think all of this is like is remote Instagram to post it. And then I posted it onto my own, just like it’s going to up with like 500 followers, friends of family.

And so I never post it myself, but I kind of read, shared it, and then did the same again with another case and then the same again, I think a third case. And then my my brother and Meg were both a bit like, Why? Why don’t you do it? Sets up a new account. And I say, I don’t want zero followers and it’s really tough and that no, can’t do it. It’ll be worth it. So I did, and that was it. And I started and then those first few cases that I got posted on to this new page and I started going from that dude. Every time I ask you a question throughout all our conversations here, you make it sound like everything happened by mistake. And I don’t know, man. It’s like maybe you’ve been just Mr. Lucky. Yeah. Well, maybe if there’s this, like, some some people have, like, the decision making process isn’t conscious. There’s a subconscious decision making process, right? But, you know, you make everything sound so simple. But, you know, other people are sitting pretty, doing composite work all day and and executing on the social media. If everyone could fill up their books for six, like your book is more than six months ahead. It’s because of your work on social. Yeah. Yeah. So. So like. Or is this just for delivery or is this like your Mr. Modest? No, I want to be Mr. Modest Garfield. Stuff’s just happened to me.

Yeah.

It’s. It’s imposter syndrome, but different ways. Yeah. I don’t. I’m not doing anything. You hear stories of people who have done these brilliant things to become super successful, and I don’t feel like I have any. Do you set goals like that? Well, I was speaking to Simon. Simon, and he said when he was one year out of university, he set a goal to be the president of the BCD, and nine years later, he became the president. But then but then you you were president of your university thing. Yeah. What do you call that? Student society. That wasn’t like that didn’t happen by mistake, did it? Or did it? No, it just got to put forward a text. No, but winning it. Winning it. And it’s I think it’s so my opinion is that if you if you overthink things, then sometimes you have to make the decisions on without trying to sound to defeat the truth to yourself. So you see, then you’re told in order to succeed on social media, you’ve got to do X, Y, Z. So to do it, but it comes across as.

Doesn’t.

Come across as genuine to them and it’s not their personality. And whereas if you just go along for the ride and try and make the best decision you can at each point, so do the best you can, you know, lay those foundations, look after your patients properly, try and get good at your job. Don’t don’t rush to chase the money. You all these things, if you if you try and make all the little decisions. Right. And they add up to to bigger opportunities and people also small gains. It’s like people die. The cycling team. Yeah. The British, I can see. Yeah. Yeah. They said right. We’re not going to reinvent cycling. We’re just going to improve every little element of these bikes and these cyclists by marginal gains. All of those added together made them just unbeatable. You’re naturally a kind of person that people warm to in every situation, whether it’s in University of becoming the guy or when I met you with do 30 people in that room in many small make of you? But we kind of had some chats and people want to you? Yeah, people want to. Sure. I’m sure your patients won’t do you 100% sure of that. But so you that comes naturally to you. Like for someone who that doesn’t come naturally to. How important do you think those soft skills are compared to the hard skills of the dentistry itself? Because I’d say that it’s bloody important.

More important than people realise. Yeah. And I’m not going to ask you to give me tips on how to get people to like you, because you just it’s a natural, right. But, you know, what I would say is making sure your patient gets a memorable experience, memorable feeling, just like when you go to a restaurant and get it really good. So that’s as important as the tea. Yeah, I think if you’re exceptional one way or the other, you’ll be all right. If you’re if you have the best soft skills on earth, you can get away with me on the best clinical skills. Or if you are the best person on earth, you can get away. You know the soft skills. You’ll be alright either way. And for most of us that in the middle, you know. Yeah, I think it doesn’t really matter if you’re, if you’re a, an extrovert or an introvert or you’re quite confident speaking or if you kind of stumble over your words a little bit or whatever it might be wherever you are, not spectrum, I think if you genuinely it’s such a cliché, but if, if your patient feels like you care about them more than you care about yourself, and you actually listen to them and you look after them, if things don’t go too far, which they don’t, you put them right.

You don’t put that blame on the patient the amount of times you see. So people on the show your case and they say, Oh bloody hell, this patient’s moaning about X, Y, Z. Such a nightmare patient. But you look at the case and you kind of say, No, I can see what. They’ve got a good eye. And, you know, it’s not a terrible case. But those sort of things that they’re saying, I feel like that if they were mighty so. And I have patients come back and they say, you know, I like the tea, but listlessness, you know, is this a bit is not quite symmetrical here or is this not right. And and I think we’re it’s it’s taking that super seriously, listening to what they say is in a serious way. So is it unique to you know and this patient’s going to see this patient right straight on to defensive mode? Oh, no. Well, the reason for this is this and this and this and try and bullshit the patient. Yeah. And when actually, if they say I’m going to say that I’ll look and I’ll say don’t you. Right. Yeah. Spot on. Good spot. Sorry, that’s me. Let me source it for you. And it is rather than getting defensive. Yeah, exactly.

It’s never been an issue, ever been an issue. Like even the slightly bigger ones are the common and they don’t like the colour. You know, it’s not just a little change. And I have the chart and say this is a subjective thing and you’re as right as I am and if what they’re in your mouth. So if you think this and this and this isn’t right, then that that means they’re not right because what you think is the important. But yeah you know communication skills we we think of as like this polished person who delivers information in the right way. And I think it just comes down to actually treating patients properly and listening to them. Yeah, that cliche that people say about this, they call it empathic listening or something where, you know, there’s one thing where you’re quiet, you’re listening, but actually you’re thinking of the answer. But there’s nothing to fully understand what that person said it was, you know, Is it a goal? Yeah. Is a goal is your side? Is your side was Oh, yeah, it’s a go on one ear on raising the ear. This issue with whitening. Why is that so? Because. Because, because right in your lectures a.k.a whitening. Seriously, I’m interested. I spoke. I was speaking to a dentist recently who maybe should have known better. Yeah. He doesn’t. Doesn’t use a license.

Why? Why aren’t you using a lighter? And he said because you’ve never given me a free one. So I never tried it. So I got free one and I tried it. No way was it, was it. Sorry. Got them. Yeah. I’m going to have to start handing out more. Yeah. It was on the course and mean. Felt like a free kick and I took a shot at in the fridge. I don’t quite get it, so forgot all about it but the wife does. So she just said to me one day because I’ll just stick white and gels in the fridge. And she said, What was that green gel? Because it’s difference, It’s green, so it’s a green shell. So I got it from that course I did. And she said, That is so much better. Really? Yeah. So I’m going to we did an analysis of the free free kits that we give many small makers and many of them go on to become users. Maybe I should start giving more free kits. And that whole thing is that we are the premium product, so it makes sense for people to try the bottle and see for themselves because everyone says that the premium, if you, if you actually are, then show it. Yeah. So I’ve got Sara and Sadhu with me. Second visit to Amazon.

Yeah.

What was your first.

August.

August this year. Yeah. Oh was it in Manchester.

Yeah.

So did you when you, after you did the course did you start doing some cases.

Only a few. I’ve not done that many. I have done a few. Get a bit more confident with it now.

So did you feel like you weren’t equipped to start at the end of the course or did you not have any cases or what was the reason why you didn’t like jump in?

It was more cases. I think it’s more like not selling it, but just having the right patients that are coming in and asking for it.

Yeah, because they think that with this sort of work, it’s it’s once work, it’s not needs work. And so as dentists we love talking about needs and needs are like, if you don’t do this, this bad thing will happen.

Yeah.

Yeah. If you don’t have the crown, whatever, you break the tooth, you don’t have the filling, you need to go. But with once it’s kind of the opposite and it’s like if you do do this something good or happen.

Yeah.

And that we’re not very good at we’re not very comfortable with it.

No, that’s.

True. But in Manchester you work in Manchester.

Like in the world.

Okay. But you must have people asking about family bonding now.

More now. Yeah. So more recently.

And. I’ve had a couple of.

So recently, I’ve had a couple of patients and they’ve just had their braces off and then have high blood draw or something.

Yeah, and.

I kind of used them as not practice. Practice is the wrong word of cases to, to use and to. To kind of show off.

Was it Invisalign?

No. So I’ve had one in particular. She was 60 and she just had a braces off. And from the orthodontist.

From your authority. So is it possible? Is there an in-house orthodontist?

No. No.

Oh, I see. You say it’s your patient who’s gone out? Yeah. Yeah. So, look, if you want to do more cases, do you feel like why become again? Have you thought like, now you’re ready, you’re more confident to do it?

Yeah, I do feel more confident. I feel like I’m one of these people that needs to know. I like watching things, so I watch it about ten times before. It’s. I feel like it’s fully sunk in.

Yeah. Some people just jump in and then they learn on the on the job. Other people have been a bit more cautious before, starting with a.

More cautious.

Person in dentistry. I am too. I feel like I’ve seen some people like they within two or three years they go and do implants and sinus lifts and yeah, it’s just not me, it’s just me. But you know, there’s different people, isn’t it? There’s different types of pros. And I don’t know about you, but once I figured it out, then I’m really good with it. I’m just slow to figure it out. So how many days a week you work.

For at the moment? Yeah, quite like four. Through uni. I worked in uni five days and then worked every Saturday and Sunday. So it’d be like I’ve done seven days at one time.

So what were you doing the weekends?

I worked at a travel company about a public transport company and answered the phones and also on the tolls on the tunnels.

In.

Liverpool. Yeah.

And the Mersey. Yeah. So you studied Liverpool?

Yes.

Liverpool screw up there as.

A real fun girl.

Okay. And so are you planning to open your own practice at some point? Is that not.

What everybody was asking? The nurses that I work with who said you should have your own practice? I don’t think I ever would, because. Well, never say never. But I just. I don’t know, like that you can go into work and then go home and not have to.

Worry about running.

A business. But I can never say no.

You don’t have the frustrations of being an associate where you have things aren’t your control, things aren’t done the way you want them to be done.

Honestly, at the moment, no. I’ve got a I’ve got a really good boss at the moment.

He’s. He’s just brilliant.

Yeah, he is. He’s really, really good. He’s like. He’s like a good mentor as well. So if you’re ever stuck on anything, he’s always there ready to help.

So it’s an example. As an example, last time when you came to him, did you buy the materials?

Well, no, that’s true, to be fair.

But did you ask did you ask him? Well, you didn’t ask.

I’ve asked for a few things, but I also brought Heidi with me today. So she’s my colleague so we can go back and decide.

I is your colleague at the same practice you need to you to be asking here. So that’s what I mean. As an example of control. That’s what I’m talking about. Yeah. What kind of practice is it?

It’s a mixed NHS and private.

So are you thinking. Go. Go more private now? Because that’s what I’m hearing from your associates.

Yeah, I do like I do like my NHS patients. But private is I think a 5050 would be a nice one.

Why not 100%?

I don’t actually. I think the NHS is good and my clients and the like. But it’s access. Well, so it’s, it’s because some people can’t afford dentistry and can’t afford to go and see a decent dentist. So I like that.

You want to be that care.

Yeah. I want to do, do still like the NHS in that way that you can help people that can’t afford private industry and genuinely want to help them.

Yeah, but of course I understand that. I understand that. But how about the fact that you’re doing it at a cost to your own career? Does that not bother you?

Obviously.

Yeah.

Yeah, but there’s a balance, right? Yeah, I get it. I get it. I know. It’s interesting. Are you sort of left leaning to believe in state or you think of it that way?

No.

Just about the people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Listen, I’m kind of left leaning. I kind of believe in socialism. Kind of? I do. But where it works.

If it’s.

You know, like in France, it’s amazing health system. It’s free, but it’s amazing. Yeah. If it works, if it’s working correctly, of course, I’m really up for it. Yeah. But here I feel like the NHS isn’t even sorting out people who really need it badly. Because. Because the amount of time and money that they allocate for the dentist, it’s near impossible to do things right. No, it is. It is. Yeah. So then you get you get that feeling that sometimes you’re not doing it to the best standard because you can’t.

Sometimes I think again, I’m quite lucky in a practice where we’ve got, we’ve got an D so anyone that needs a lot of work. 454 I think. But again, I was in that position because I was an employee at that practice. Obviously you get your experience in, but in if I worked in a practice where there wasn’t an FDA or wasn’t left in our practice, yes, then I would be really frustrated. And I’m just really lucky that I do every practice where we have in an area where it’s it’s got two sides to it. We’ve got a really.

Affluent.

Area.

And a high.

Needs, but really it’s split 5050. So again, really lucky in that sense. So I think it just depends on what area you work and what practice and if you’ve got access to an FDA. And I think I’m just got lucky in my practice.

So now that you’ve come a second time watching him lecture, you’re taking different things away, more things away. Or do you remember every bit that he did?

Every bit.

But yeah, it just sinks in a little bit more in that, you know. So we’ve gone away and done a few things that I’ve thought I remembered. And then and then he’s done it again today. And I thought, Oh, actually I didn’t do that quite right. So and I can improve on that a bit better. I can just listen a bit more rather than sitting and trying to take all it at once. I can listen to the parts that I may have missed last time.

Yeah. Yeah. Are you here for the whole two days?

Yeah.

And tonight.

And tonight.

Where do we go? And last time you came, was it 20 stories again? Well, it could be chilly this time. Yeah, me too. Tell me about your enlightened kit. Did you use it? The one we gave you?

Yes. Why not? For me, I think. I don’t wait for a good case to come along so I can.

Catch.

Any patient. Yeah. Do you do much whitening?

You do a bit whitening? Yeah.

It’s the world centre of whitening where you are, right?

To be honest, I think there was a more a few years ago. I think when you think of everything, how everything is, I think a lot of people because you found like a lot of patients, I mean, you’re not cancelling their appointments and saying, Oh, come in after Christmas again, it’s money.

So you referred to that cost of living crisis and all that. You actually feeling that right from your patients?

You’re definitely.

Much more cautious about going ahead with stuff.

100%. So usually we’d have four books, all dentists and practice, and it’ll get to the week before. And so many people are cancelling. Or when we bring people up to say, oh you, you due to come in now they’ll say, Oh can I book in January after Christmas? And I’m just a bit strapped for cash to do. Yeah, definitely.

Thing is reckon next is going to be even more problematic. Unless you do you do much work on finance.

Yeah.

That’s good. Because. Because from what I remember, last recession, you weren’t even a dentist in 2008. But how old were you in 2000? Eight. Oh, no. So what I remember was finance dried up completely, whether it was for mortgages, whether it was for dental finance in a treatment finance, Finance completely dries up in the recession. And I feel like we’re not there yet. I think we’ve got a bit of an acceleration compared to the rest of the world because of the whole mistrust thing. But next year, I feel like the whole world is going to be going in. Now, the good news is, having been through two other recessions in history, then she doesn’t get hit as hard as you might imagine. It just doesn’t. It just doesn’t. You know, people people start cancelling other stuff, like people they won’t buy the sofa for their for their lounge that they were thinking of buying. And you’ll notice businesses start going bust. Those are the first ones that start going bust. And then people have one less holiday. Maybe by the time it comes to cutting health care, it’s going to be a pretty deep recession. So I wouldn’t worry about it, but I would worry about it. That’s the interesting point. The point is I would worry about it. I would make changes or whatever changes that you think are right. And it sometimes ends up being more in the go more to needs than once. Category.

Yes.

Yeah. But then she generally gets through it quite well. That’s good. What does your husband do? She shouldn’t.

Know.

Oh, I don’t know.

He’s a data analyst.

Oh, amazing. Amazing to see what kind of tech company he works.

He’s recently changed jobs, but he. He works from home, so he’s nicely tucked up in bed, and I leave for work.

So what’s the worst thing about the is actually turning up? You’ve got to turn up. Put no choice but to turn up. I stopped ten years ago, and the best thing about not being a dentist is not having to be there.

Yeah.

And I still have to turn up to lots of places. So having to be.

Yeah.

Every day it wears you down, right? That’s what I feel.

Yeah. Yeah. If for some days it does.

Yeah. What would you say is the best thing? It’s.

That’s a really hard question. I actually don’t know.

It depends on what you love, right? Because if you love the problem solving part of it.

Yeah.

Some people are really into that. Dipesh really loves that idea. Some people are into like the carpentry of it, you know, cutting and fitting and all of that. And for me, when I stop the thing I miss the most people.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I do have. I think I would miss people. Hello. If I stop dentistry.

For these while you’re a dentist, people are kind of in the way. There’s too many people. If you stop being this sunny, realise people you’re not in touch with people in general.

Because you have only conversations with everyone and you get to know them, don’t you? And I’ve had a few lately and they go, Oh, how was your holiday? And it was six months ago. And I’m like, Oh, it was really good. Thank you. I remember it. And lots of people are really appreciative more than I think you realise, because they come in and bring you like your presents and things and it’s.

Because that thing is it that you’ve got many patients but you’re their only dentist sort of thing. Yeah, know. But let’s talk about private and NHS. The main difference is that these social piece talking to people, Listening to people.

Yeah.

The main difference, you know, the teeth. The teeth in the end. Yeah. But you know, you need to. For me I used to love the fact that there was time to have conversations about people’s lives and just there was no time for that.

People wait in the waiting like, Oh, and you try not to rush through, but you kind of need to because you’re, you know, you’re running 20 minutes late.

And something’s got to give, right? So it’s not going to be the lay or the treatment that’s going to give. It’s going to be that conversation that ends up being missed. And so for me, I only did NHS for one year, but in that year I realised I do not want to do this because I couldn’t talk to anyone. It was just rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thanks a lot for taking your time. Finally, I’ve got the man himself throughout. Throughout the course. It was very difficult to get any time with the person because obviously the busiest man in the room. But I’ve got you now. So how are you feeling?

I have a good buddy. It’s Saturday evening. First day was one intense starting line, two hands on exercises, clinical cases, lectures. Very good chat with many of the delegates.

Nice to have.

Mattie. Nice to have Mattie. Nice to have the football. Football’s on as well at the end.

Iran one.

Iran one.

Yeah.

Oh, nice. Yes.

Against Wales. But England, Drew.

And yet today, another hands on exercise.

Blessed to meet those people from the chorus who came again. It’s always nice to see them. Yeah. And they’re the only ones I managed to talk to as well because everyone else was busy doing their teeth on this podcast. People have been before, but it’s nice thing that I always feel like when someone gives a weekend over to you, it’s a it’s a humbling thing. Yeah. And we’ve always thought that. We’ve always thought the pressure of that, making sure that that weekend’s worth it for them. Then when someone goes to you can hear that chooses to come again. Yeah. And we don’t charge the second time or whatever. But it’s the time, isn’t it.

Yeah. And you know what? I’ve noticed. Yeah. The. The type of questions that a second time or second time comes is completely different to the questions asked by the new delegate.

Really?

So it just shows you that they’ve come on the course, they go into practice, they’ve tried a few cases, put things into practice, come across some hurdles, and then when they come back, there’s a higher level of thinking. Yeah, the questions are like, yeah, this is a.

You know, sometimes I speak I never ever speak for more than an hour. In my whole career, I’ve never spoken more than now. But every time I speak at the end of the hour, I’m just like, shattered. Completely shattered. Broken. Yeah. Because it’s kind of it’s much higher stress than it looks, being a lecturer. But then when you do this course and you’re speaking for like an hour and a half, then 2 hours and you’re on on show for basically two whole days and you’re having to do the hands on as well. And I know you could probably do the hands on these days without much trouble, but you still have got to do it. Does that does it tie you basically are you more tired than I am at the end of all this? You must be you must be shattered. Course I.

Do. It is. It is taxing. But the thing is, is the way the course is structured, there’s a story being told from the beginning to the end. And so for me, I need to tell the complete story. And it’s that journey.

So basic, sort of monochromatic and then polychromatic.

And the way this, of course, is structured, where we basically. It’s exactly what we do clinically. It goes through diagnosis, treatment, planning, share, taking, processes, isolation, tooth preparation. But at each stage we’re then going through clinical cases, going through the pros and cons of those different steps. And so I want I obviously want to share all the information and what I want to complete each step to a good standard. So it’s nice to be able to give them all the information.

Yeah. And it was pretty nice though, Matty, because it was like his first ever composite course was, was this that and only four years ago. It’s not that long ago. And to see him now, the way he’s like, doing composites all day, every day. And, you know, I’ve been asking that question of why does one person end up like Matthew and one person doesn’t do it. So if I was to speak to him on this podcast about that and how I got here and, you know, he was saying there’s different things now. Invisalign makes you have five cases ready before you can even do the course. Yes. Did you know that? Yes. I think it’s a good move. It’s a pretty good idea. Yeah. Because it means people are committed to starting. Yeah. And then he was saying that they teach, so you can’t really do the same thing.

You know, these dentists we’ve been do composites since third year universities. You should have.

Yeah, but this is a business that’s hot in which thing they teach their course by showing the cases of all the delegates. This idea is an interesting idea because it makes delegates realise it is possible. Yep, yep, yep.

Rather than seeing.

But there’s a bit thing too. This is the danger with you because you start your presentation so beautiful that the people just think, I can’t do that. I’ll never be able to do that. Whereas they don’t fully sort of understand the idea of, like, the first time you did it, you were a newbie to it. And it’s not like you’re the old guy, right? You’re 34 or something like 35, 35, 35. And the first time I met you, you already done beautiful work with 24 or something.

In your third year.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it’s one of those things. Like anything else, like the first time you do something is it’s a bit stressful and you really keep on doing it.

But it’s nice that I understand what you’re saying. It can get overwhelming. But the nice thing is, is every single step, the photograph just or the videos demonstrate the step perfectly. Yeah. So after they’ve seen the sequence of that particular case, they’re like page drops and it’s like.

I think this cause can be a bit overwhelming in terms of the amount of content in it, but I reckon you could have made two courses out of the content you’ve got in this course. You know, and I love I’m proud of the fact give me I’m proud of the fact that you give a lot in this course, but sometimes some people think they get overwhelmed by that, I guess.

Yeah, I think two days is something you. We’re pretty cool working from 9 to 7 on day one. For some. That’s that’s that’s a fairly long day. There is a lot of information to take in. I guess if we were to do another two days, it would be focusing on treating for large, multiple composite veneers, treating cases that involve different types of restorations or class for veneer to that kind of complex case, which typically most people say is easier just to stick a ceramic on top. But I mean, as you saw, Friday is the main day where we’re focusing on the operative side of direct injury. There is so much to it. There are so many steps that I too overlooked. Right. And then when I started to audit my processes and then start to ask myself, why am I using this wedge and not why I’m aware of using a wooden wedge as opposed to a plastic wedge? Why am I using a curved matrix and not a not a flat acetate matrix? You know, why do we keep. Why do we use a different shade for the plate or shell? When most educators will suggest using the same shade of enamel on the label surface incisal and palatal. So all of those things are quite easily overlooked. And what we’re doing now is breaking everything up and looking around.

A couple of years ago, you started this. You changed it slightly. A couple of years ago, you started this idea of you, you fit the solution to the problem. You know, what’s the situation? What’s missing? Where’s the problem? So bearing that in mind, so what’s the material that we need to use and what’s the shade that we need to use? And where is it? Is is it, is it chromatic? Is it a chromatic, is it near the gingival, is it near the incisal and sort of working through what the answer should be so that then they can tackle any type of case. Yeah. That’s and that’s important.

Which is important because the alternative was. Read a textbook.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But the thing is, is this is just like cooking. You read the the manual, the book. Yeah. And, you know, it doesn’t taste the same. Yeah, every time. It’s about application of knowledge. Understanding the why. Yeah.

What about the. The social. Do you have that feeling that I have about the social education as well? Oh, yeah.

I learned so much. I mean.

Different type of.

Educational specialists coming through associates. You’re getting therapists, single practice owners, multiple practice owners.

There’s a lot to learn from each other. Yeah, from each other.

It doesn’t have to be that opposite.

Yeah, it.

Can just be about life in general. Somebody speaking to me and saying, Hey, you know.

I’ve had some amazing people on this course, but yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, there are delegates are fantastic and I love spending time with them.

All right. Well, we we sound a bit tired because it’s been a long, long day. But I’m grateful for you for for having this chat.

But it’s been a fantastic two days. We’ve got it again two weeks time.

So back in London. Back in London. Well, thought it was a lovely performance this time that you need to do well in amongst the football. Well you have the football on the big screen. Very easy. Thanks, my buddy. Thanks for doing it, guys. Well, if you listen to the end, thank you so much. If you’re interested in attending the course or finding out more about the course, it’s on Mini Smile Makeover. Com. So mini smile makeover dot com. Obviously Mini smile makeover on all the social platforms as well. Thank you so much for for taking the time guys. See you on the other side of the next one.

Bye.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this far, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

But it is a communication tool largely. But I think what is a big deal about it as well is when you sell like patient to mock up is the fact that you can import the DSD mock-up into Invisalign because they’ve got a partnership. So you can actually then move the teeth to the position you sold the patient to.

So it’s that.

You? Yeah, that is the actual biggest thing about it because you can otherwise patient can try on the teeth. But how are you going to move to that position exactly. If you can’t import it into Invisalign.

Now now I can now I can.

Say.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts, Payman, Langroudi and Prav selling cake.

Hey, guys, This is our first recording of 2023, and we’ve had a little technical flaw after 100 plus episodes of Dental Leaders and for some reason the recording switched off just on Payman partway through the podcast. But Dora’s still answered the questions, so as pay would say, super duper. Unless Carry on, you’ve lost 15 golden moments of pay. We’ve lost 15 golden minutes of pay. And those were his best 50 minutes of 2023. Let’s go. Let’s carry on. It gives me great pleasure to welcome everyone to the New Year at Dental Leaders. Well, this was probably going to go out six weeks time, so it probably won’t be as as as as current as I thought it would be. But the lovely bit of it is we’ve got Prav on the podcast together. We’ve done several on our own path we have, but together for the first time in a while. How you doing, buddy? I’m good, buddy. I’m good. And just so everyone knows, it’s the 2nd of January today, right? It’s the day before we go back. I’m doing well. I guess the reason why we’ve been doing podcasts separately with various guests is just the hour. You’re an efficiency freak, but that’s buddy. That’s efficiency. Let’s not let’s not sugarcoat. You’re an efficiency freak. That’s what you are. And pays the kind of guy who’s available anytime, any day, any place. Right. So I’ll tell you that story. I could be seeing a client in London at 3:00 next Wednesday and pay won’t even know I’m in London. And I’ll say, Hey, buddy, I’ve just finished with a client.

You free for lunch? And the answer will be sure. Sure. Yeah, let’s do it. And it doesn’t matter what day of the week is, I wouldn’t have, unfortunately. I just wouldn’t be able to do that for you. You should know, not everybody gets that service for me either. And so and so I guess I’ve just been busy and so I’ve squeezed in some guests myself. Pay You’ve been doing your own thing and here we are back again. And it’s an interesting time of the year, you know, Christmas, New Year, that sort of thing is the time I really get to switch off. I mean, truly switch off. We get summer holidays, go away with the family, all the rest. But this time, I don’t know what it is about this time. Right. Is that first of all, all of my team are off and I actually forced them to take time off between Christmas and New Year’s. We don’t operate during that time. We don’t come back. I think it’s great for them to switch off as well. So that that’s a must. Although one or two of my team members will still put a stint in in between Christmas and New Year just because that’s the way they’re hardwired. But for me, it’s that time to switch off and then it takes me a bit of time to get back into the groove. Buddy. You know, I’ve done I’ve done half a day in between Christmas and New Year, I think was a couple of days ago.

I did a couple of hours this morning just sort of pruning my inbox, and then tomorrow would be my first day. But that first day will be an easy day. You know, I’ll ease myself in. I’ll have one or two client calls and then ramp things up during the week. It takes me a bit of time to get stuck in. I don’t know what you guys daura pay what it’s like for you between Christmas and New Year and what that time of year means to you from a work perspective and switching off. Well, for me it’s, it’s, it’s normally I’m away. Usually I’m in Beirut for Christmas and this year I haven’t been and last year actually. And it’s really lovely not going away you know because when you go away, I mean it’s a different thing going to the Maldives or something. I would do that. You know, Father Christmas on the beach sounds like amazing, like an amazing idea. But when you go away to the same place and to our in-laws and, you know, up to Christmas, the dental calendar seems to speed up. Now, these days, I’m going to a lot of events and then to then straight away, pack your bags and get on a plane. Busy airport, customs Beirut or, you know, it just seemed like a lot of hard work. Whereas this now I kind of get that slow down feeling and I’ve been able to catch up with some of my school buddies and and, you know, just do the usual thing people do Christmas.

But when you say I’ve done a bit off work. Prav Yeah, like I spent the four nights ago between sort of midnight and 4 a.m. only thinking about Enlightened. But I was thinking I now I see that as work. Yeah. Because so when I say I truly switch off buddy. Yeah, it is literally so. So So you said you go away during Christmas, right? I do the same. Right. So the kids. To Lapland and thought I’d get that in. Whilst they still believe Santa exists and sorry for our younger members of the audience who still believe that sorry, Depeche Mode. He doesn’t miss it, but I’ll go away on holidays. Summertime, right. I’ll still be thinking about Christmas New Year. I don’t know what it is about that time. It’s the only time of year where I totally don’t think about work. It’s actually healthy because that’s when you come up with the best ideas, when you stop thinking about it. But for me, I wasn’t thinking about it, except I did three nights ago, you know what I mean? And then the crazy thing that the one thing I do, it’s like my annual clean up, right? I go to my downloads folder on my Mac. Yeah, Yeah. And I delete everything that shouldn’t be there. I clean my Mac up, I purge my files, I go through this. It’s almost like a spring clean on my computer and my files and stuff. It’s like a ritual I do. And that’s what I’ve been doing today, right? But then I find stuff that little projects like Think I forgot about that forgot about this little idea here or there or whatever.

Right? And I start organising things and start planning and stuff. And the one thing that’s going to change this year is I’m going to tell my team this first week back, it’s all about getting organised, It’s not about doing, it’s about getting organised. And then after that we go go full steam ahead. My, my, my moment of clarity was your big tip that I, we’ve listened to phone calls and enlightened before, but, but I happened to hear again some bit of a podcast that came. You know what happens? I could, I could sleep with a head with a headphone in my ear and sometimes wake up to the voice of Prav talking about listening to phone calls. Beautiful, beautiful. And and the point about once or twice isn’t enough, you know. And so my my sort of New Year resolution at Enlightened is once a month we’re going to listen to phone calls together with the sales team. And you know, just on that one, Dora is a new practice owner. Right. And if I could give her one piece of advice for the growth of her practice and ongoing consistency in Dora, we’ve we’ve you know, we’re engaged to introduce door to door at places. Great pleasure to introduce Dora Lengyel to the podcast. So there is a new practice. So know she’s worked with Prav and with me a little bit as well. But lovely to have you, Dora.

Thank you. Well.

Dora, welcome to the podcast. I said to my daughter today because now it’s back to work, right? So my youngest daughter, who’s who’s I guess I’m her favourite and she’s, she’s my favourite of the favourite flavour at the moment of child because she’s because she’s always in love with me, right. And always like Daddy, daddy that right. But she goes what are you, what are you doing today Then I said, Oh, I’m interviewing Dora. And straight away she said, Dora the Explorer. I’m sure you’ve heard. I’m sure you’ve heard it.

Dora the Explorer.

Too.

I know.

It’s lame. Excuse it. With the kids, the kid, patience.

Yet one of the parents said once and I was like, I’m so using that. Yeah. So I’m from Hungary and talking about Christmas. I go home to Hungary every single year, take at least one week off, and I’ve done that this year as well. It’s the only time I see my family all together, so it’s very important time for me. So where I’m from in Hungary, I was I was brought up in Budapest, but my family’s all over the place, so my uncle and aunt, they live in Germany, my parents live in Kuwait, and my sister lives in a states and I live in England. So it’s the time when everybody meets. So it’s really important time to see the family.

You all go back to Hungary, everyone congregates back.

There except my sister couldn’t because it’s something to do with Visa and also because in America they only have two weeks holiday and it’s just really tight.

So do you switch off between Christmas and New Year, especially being a fresh new practice owner? You know, it’s not quite a squat. We know that, Dora, But but but you can tell us more about that later. But as someone who is in their first year of practice ownership, what was that like between Christmas and New Year for you?

Oh, well, to be honest, I did switch off because because I normally don’t, even though I’ve been to a business growth course and you said like, take time away, but I don’t normally switch off. So I did this time because I was like, I need to switch off sometimes. So I did get to focus on my mom, mainly good at my grandma.

But the change Dora from being. Associate to being a principal. What surprised you the most?

That things just keep coming at you. That you had no idea that. I don’t know. I never even expected that. Being a practising lawyer, is this stressful? Like, do you want to hear the story? Basically, like on my first day, the x ray machine stopped working. My brand new scanner stopped working the week before. You know, like a few weeks ago when it was like, minus six, my boiler broke. Like, just keep things keep on, like, coming at me, and it’s just never ending. So it’s a lot more than dentistry. I thought it would be dentistry, but it’s just all these other things that you don’t expect. And being a practice owner is so much more than dentistry. I had this kind of idea that, like, if I have my own practice, I can do like, my own sort of dentistry. It’s kind of true, but it’s also the fact that, you know, if you’re in the surgery working all these other things going on that you need to focus on.

But I know when principals say that and you hear principals saying that all the time, did you not believe them?

Well, it’s more like it was a well-oiled machine. You know, by the time I was in any practice, it was a well-oiled machine. But when it’s not kind of a well-oiled machine yet and you already have to be in a practice and you have to build your line. Right? Exactly. The building of the machine is the hardest.

We often ask practice owners, especially those who’ve been been in the game for many years, If you could speak to your younger self and give yourself some advice or do it again, what would you do? I guess if you could rewind the clock even six months or just before you bought in and look at what’s happened now? What would have you done differently?

Maybe look at the due diligence more because I’m quite an emotional buyer and it’s a bit like I’ve just been on a course. What maybe we can talk about that the DSD course as well, which is all about emotional dentistry and people buy big things emotionally. I kind of bought the practice like that and you know, not not what was it?

Was it about it that you fell in love with? Was it the building?

Well, there’s a lot of things. It’s close to my house. It’s small enough. It was already doing the sort of dentistry that I wanted, the building that every time I was there, I just loved being there. I just just had this vibe about it and I was just like, Yeah, whatever. I want to practice, and that’s it.

And so what would the surprise is when you say due diligence, what was going through? Give me the top three surprises that you absolutely weren’t expecting. Due diligence wise.

Well, I mean, maybe how up to date the books were because like, there were active patients on there who haven’t been for like four years or three years or, you know, that’s not really active patients and, you know, like not looking into the fact that, you know, oh, yeah, the fire the fire risk assessment is in and it’s not expired or anything, but actually it’s all read and nobody done anything about it, you know, things like that. But you know, you don’t.

Or if you knew all of that, Yeah, the number of expired patients or the number of active patients X, Y and Z, what do you think would have happened? Do you think you’d have still gone ahead and bought the practice? Do you think you’d have been able to negotiate harder on the buying price? What would you have not bought it at all?

And I guess I would have negotiated on the price a bit more. I still would have bought it.

But it’s not. It’s definitely not worth losing any sleep over because because in the long term, when you look at where you’re going to be in five, seven, ten years time. Right. Having paid whatever it is more right, it will pale into insignificance. And I promise you that many of my clients who are who I speak to today or who have bought Grown and then sold it the other side, what they paid at the beginning, whether it was ten, 15, 2000 K more or even more than that, right. It becomes irrelevant. It really does. It’s not worth. It’s definitely not worth beating yourself up about, that’s for sure. So you definitely made the right decision, that’s for sure. Right. Because you would have done it anyway.

Well, so far, I think so. Good.

You weren’t there at all. Had you worked there at all before you bought it?

No.

So when you got there on day one, did you make a speech to the team like what you liked about the direction of travel? About what or not?

I actually made a little speech to the team before that. We went out for dinner in advance.

Before you bought it?

Yeah. And I. We kind of talked about the core values. And to be honest, I was kind of involved in the interview process, and I kind of set out like, this is what I want my practice to be. It’s not there. You know, you guys know this is going to be a journey. And I only want you on if you are happy to go on this journey with me. And it’s going to be hard work.

What did you say? What core values? What was missing? What did you.

Say? So I feel like in in health care, generally, dentistry included, we became a bit like, you can’t get hold of a GP. You might be able to get like an appointment on the phone like in six weeks time and dentistry the same, like in and out. You can’t get an appointment. And people, I feel just really hungry for someone to really care about them. And maybe I’m thinking about it still quite naively, but I just really wanted to kind of do more patient centred care and not just like Tesco checkout sort of dentistry. I just didn’t want to be involved with that.

So were you thinking more Marks and Spencers or were you thinking more like Selfridges or were you thinking more like Harrods or Fortnum Mason or Lidl? Or were you thinking.

Probably Marks Marks and Spencers? Yeah.

Because that’s an important point. You know, the positioning of your product, right? You know, I’d say perhaps product is marketing product that’s at the higher end. It’s more I’d say it’s higher, higher up than in Marks and Spencers. We do more than madagascan vanilla in our. I know. Yeah. And same with Enlightened. I’d say enlightened is of the higher end although although there comes a thing happens in in any business year where you start off with a sort of an early adopter and then the mass market comes in after that, but you position it when you say Marks and Spencers, I guess you’re not talking about sort of the teeth are you, You’re talking about the service element.

Yeah. Give the people the time they deserve and really listen to them. I listen to a kind of web thing that Christian Coachman did with the line and that was quite kind of life changing in my head, like comprehensive dentistry and things to look. And I just felt like I want to be part of I want to be part of something bigger than myself, if that makes sense. I know it sounds a.

Bit going life changing.

Go on well in life changing in the fact that I wanted to have my own practice, whereas beforehand I never did or I didn’t think I did. Although when I said it to the treatment coordinator I’ve been working with last couple of years, I said, Oh, by the way, I’m going to leave. I’m going to have my own practice. And she said, Oh, well, it’s time now. I knew this was going to happen. I was like, Really? I didn’t. She’s like, No, I could tell that’s where you’re going because I’ve got so many associates here. I knew that was going to happen, whereas I didn’t realise that until, you know, everybody has like something that pushes them to.

Yeah. So sometimes in life it takes an outsider to tell you who you are. You know, I found my, my, my 12 year old daughter sort of asking me who she is. You know, she wasn’t saying. She said, Hey, you tell me who I am. But that’s what she was saying. That’s what you were saying. She wanted feedback on what kind of person she is and all this. And and in life, generally, sometimes it takes an outsider to tell you who you are. On the other hand, you do get the people who are planning and all of that. And and they’ve got a very clear sort of way forward. But I think, you know, I think all of us have these three or four different brains in our head, and one of them is the clear planner, and then the other one is is the dreamer and all that I wouldn’t worry about. That, although. Are you saying that you sort of weren’t ready? I mean, who’s ready? Who’s ready for their first practice? No.

Well, that’s the other thing I was thinking. Who’s ever ready? I just wasn’t happy where I was. And when I looked at my evaluated my options, I was like, do I go to another practice and start from the bottom again? Or do I just and, you know, it’s like the third time, or do I just go for it and build something? The things I the way I wanted them to be.

So in your in your existing practice that you were in, was there an element of customer service, listless focus on that for now that you wanted to provide, but you couldn’t in that setting?

Well, the thing is, I could want to first went there, but, you know, as as the practice was getting busier and busier after COVID. And then also my as I developed as a dentist, then I was doing more complex stuff. I changed to who I was and what suited me. And I was like, I can’t like have, I don’t know, wisdom, tooth extraction and then like a Botox and then like, I don’t know, a full mouth rehab in the next appointment, you know, it’s like just too much, you know, like I need to be in charge of what’s going on a bit more. I just I don’t know if I’m explaining this Well.

Yeah. I mean, you’re kind of talking about the way that they do your scheduling, right?

Yeah, exactly. Because every time there was, like, a ten minute gap, they’re like, Oh, you can see a patient in here. I’m like, not really, you know? So you see what’s it like in front of it and behind it, You know, I’m going to need some space. Can we just greyed out? And they’re like, No.

Yeah, but I see, I see, I see, look, I see that sort of thing. But but going back to this patient experience that you want to provide for your patients. Yeah. And I know, by the way, I know you’re probably nowhere near providing the thing that you want to provide. Yeah, but. But let’s just sort of project, know, two years forward and say now you’ve managed to sort out that member of staff who wasn’t quite onside and you’ve managed to carve out that time and done that course where you’ve got this new skill and give me a little sort of forward looking. What would it look like to be a patient at your practice? What would be those elevated sort of bits of it that would stand you in a different situation to go into another practice?

So exceeding expectations. So the practice, like the patient comes even sometimes we offer them a glass of water. They’re like, Really? And I’m like, Is this a big deal? You know, someone to be like hosting at the front and having a chat with you? I mean, at the moment I’m looking at reception desks and I don’t want ones that like cover the receptionist so they can’t talk to you because the whole point is like, I want the receptionist to talk to the patient, like put them at ease, and then they go into another room that’s not dental. It’s like with the TCO, the TCO, having like, sometimes patients get surprised if I ask them about like to get to know them and they’re like, What do you want to know about me? What what was this new thing? What do you want to know about me? And they’re surprised, but they obviously like it. And then I already scan every patient. But in the future, like I want to scan every patient and then kind of it’s getting quite popular in dentistry at the moment. But this kind of like get to know the patient, build trust with them first, scan them, give OPG or, you know, thorough radiographs and then give them all their options and let them choose what they want.

No shortcuts. Don’t cut do shortcuts for them because they they need to own their answer. Like, do you need to know, like, what happens if you don’t provide if you don’t do something properly or you know, everything? I don’t know how to explain it, but everything in dentistry is related to another thing. If you think, Oh, it’s just this one too. So I’m like, No, that one tooth is a problem because of the other tooth. And you know what I mean? Just a more comprehensive approach is what I’m trying to say. Yeah. So that’s basically and then what I’m thinking about for the patient experience. And so far so far, to be honest, I’m pretty happy with how my practice is going because every new patient is like, Oh my God, I really feel like I’m listened to and, you know, like it’s the most thorough check-up I’ve ever had. And I understand all my options. They may not go ahead straight away, which is not a problem, as long as they understand that somebody actually listened to them and have their best interests at heart.

How do we measure that? I was just about to ask a question. It probably in and around that. Right. But but the one question I’ve got around that is Dora, this patient who you’re talking about, who’s like, Wow, I haven’t had a check-up as thorough is this. And then you said, Oh, they just go ahead. Right? Are these existing patients of the practice that have now had a better experience and. Now saying, Do you know what? I didn’t know that you offered this, this and this. Less rock and roll. Or is it completely fresh blood?

Mainly new patients. Because the dentist I took over from, he he did like comprehensive dentistry and he kind of did most of them. There’s a few existing patients who who were kind of saying, I know what you you know, you said to the old owner that I know that I need this stuff, but I’m not ready. And now they are ready. Mm hmm.

But the conversation that you’re talking about is a new patient experience, what I refer to as. And maybe I shouldn’t call it fresh blood.

Yeah.

And it’s when. When someone completely new comes into your business that has never stepped into your business before, and they’re saying, Wow, what an amazing experience. And then they take treatment and patients question is, well, how do we go about measuring that, Right? No, no, no, no. I wasn’t saying that I was She was saying patients were really happy. Yeah, there was it was a new experience for them being listened to and all that. And my, my, my thought was, you know, we go around measuring KPIs, but that’s not the KPI is interested in. Yeah, the numbers one’s the KPI she’s interested in is this satisfaction, satisfaction or love? It’s above satisfaction and it’s exceeding the nearest thing that we’ve measured to that and stuck a number on it with no net promoter score. So Net promoter score, something like this, you know, patient comes in, has a consultation, patient comes in, has treatment, whatever it is. At the end of an experience, you send a two question questionnaire to that patient and the first question is on a score of 1 to 10, how likely are you to recommend our service to your friends and family or whatever, based on the experience that you’ve just had on a score of 1 to 1010 being like, Absolutely, yes.

And one being not a chance sunshine on your bike. And so what Net Promoter Score does is it allows you to to to put an aggregated score for that. So a lot of the big companies, the Googles, the Amazons, or they they measure satisfaction, engagement, whatever you call it, by net promoter score. But the second question for me is more powerful, right? And the second question is why did you choose that number? So why did you choose seven? Why did you choose ten? Why did you choose three? For me, Net Promoter Score is less about actually getting a metric or a KPI on how well your patient satisfaction is. It’s a great tool for being able to deal with complaints before they happen and a great way of being able to share with your team the eight, nine and ten is that your patients have given you and the whys they they’ve given you eight, nine and ten. It’s almost like reviews, right? But they seem to give you a lot more in this little two question survey. So a lot easier to respond to an NPS than it is to log into Google, put your account details in, blah, blah, blah and all the rest of it.

So, so so how you would measure it? Nps for sure, but for me, I would rarely use NPS as that sort of measure of satisfaction or rely on it too much, but more actually, if someone’s giving me a three, why did they give me a three? Holy shit, right? What I need to do is jump on the phone and get this three sorted out and that may be that three may involve you converting another patient, right. Who for some reason scored you differently and it might have been something totally obscure. And then the ten share with your your your team and we’re talking about your monitor that you bought from Apple. And the one reason you bought it was the camera that follows you around. And then you probably bought this like £6,000 on it, how much you paid. There’s a cheaper one in it works. But, but either way they’re all very expensive monitors. Yeah. And the reason he bought it was because the camera moves as you move. That’s it. I mean, of course it’s an apple. All of those things. Yeah. And then he’s always talking about the cookie he gets at his Doubletree crappy hotel.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Lovely, lovely biscuits. Right, But. But then I was telling him this. You know, sometimes we should. We should find Fedora. Like, what is the cookie that, you know, that’s really the key thing, isn’t it? These people who are overjoyed to see you and that never been talked to like this, what is what does it come down to? Because Net Promoter score idea how likely I am to tell someone else to come and what’s the reason that really is that right? I guess you could be like profit and just be scientific. Just ask, right?

I think. I think. What do you think? I’m. I find at the time, the time and the care, you know, like when you really care about someone’s answer and, you know, like someone is really, like, worried about that.

We can talk. We can talk to 100 dentists or 100 of them will say, I’ll give my patients time and I’ll give them care. But you know. But what do you mean by that? Because what do you.

Mean like that? They’re not just booked in for 10 minutes where you’re like, I’m running late. No, no, no, no, no. I have, like, my 2 minutes to talk to you.

Super private dentists. Yeah, all of them have the time, and all of them want to care, but. But each one is different. Like to you. What does care mean?

Like get to know the person. And I think I think also this scanner, since I’ve started scanning everyone, I don’t know how I was a dentist without scanning everyone.

Really? Yeah. I feel like I can.

Yeah. I love the scanner. Like, I love like, showing it to them and they are like, Oh my God, I’ve never seen anything like it. And it’s just I can really explain like what’s going on in their mouth and I can feel like they don’t have to just, you know, some voodoo I’m doing in there. And, you know, you have to, like, guess or take my word for it. I’m like, You build trust because you’re like, Look, I said, it’s here. You can see it even say to them, like in black and white, but actually it’s in colour. It’s there as clear clearly. So I’m not making stuff up.

Let me trust us. Huge in dentistry, isn’t it? It’s gigantic. That’s why I kind of like the idea of those digital x ray, you know, diagnosis tools. I the x ray diagnosis tools that are around that, you know, of course it helps as well, Right? You’re not going to miss any miss. Do you miss things less? But the main thing for me is you show the patient, the computer said you need a filling there and you need a filling there, you know, and, and and it’s a big thing. But I think the combination of you’re saying what I guess what you’re saying there is the combination of being a really sort of caring human plus the tech that that’s helping you both look high tech, but also to explain things to patients and give you trust that that’s what you’re enjoying right now. Did you not have scanner in your previous practice?

I did, but I didn’t have time to use it.

Oh, you were. You were scanning the ortho cases only.

Yeah, only like. Yeah, exactly.

It’s interesting. Just thought back to, first of all, the, the thing I was going to share at the beginning of this podcast, but also just thinking about, well, how do we summarise what, what, what door is saying here and wrap it up into what does it revolve around. Right. And the cooking. And it’s, it’s just, it’s just communication. It really is. It’s just communication. The level, the type, the detail, the nature, the voice, the tone, the care behind that communication, all of that sort of stuff. Right. And how do you measure that? Right. Well, Dorie, you’ve got your own measure of that because you set your own standards. You’ve already said coming from the practice I came from to open my own revolved around delivering better communication, giving patients more time and delivering them treatment options that they that I feel that they should be allowed to explore given the time that you’re giving them. Right. But how do you ensure that that communication or that level of depth, detail and quality is happening? Your team because before they get to see you. Yet there’s a gatekeeper in your practice, and that’s the person who’s answering the phone, either outbound and picking up the phone and speaking to potential patients, essentially selling to them or pitching to them or inbound. When a patient calls and is interested in booking in a check-up or consultation or whatever it is. Right. And that for me, that piece, that little piece of communication there, your person on the phone, whoever they are, yeah, it’s that communication that you need to keep your eye on, that you need to measure.

And it’s the one thing I’ll tell any practice owner either experienced, inexperienced, new squad, whatever. Monitor that. Measure it. Review it. Listen to it. Do it on a monthly basis and you will learn more about your business than than any coach could possibly teach you. Because you learn about your customers, because you learn, in their words, the type of questions that they ask. The communication that comes. And then you can arm your team with the answers. Every patient doesn’t have the standard. I can sit here and do you a session on the ultimate sales call or something like that. Right. But that is following a logical pattern of what a patient would say and what a receptionist would say in the to and fro. Right. But the reality doesn’t present itself like that. The reality is that we patients throw different questions, different tone of voice, receptionist having a bad day that day and her tone of voice is off or whatever, right? So my, my biggest tip to anyone is that take 5 to 10 phone calls inbound and outbound 5050 mix, pick them at random, download them, make sure you’ve obviously got a recording platform in place and then listen.

To them.

With the team. And share your feedback and allow them to share their feedback. And if you did that every single month, they end up coaching each of them. The first time you do that, they absolutely shits a brick and there’s every excuse under the sun. But what’s really important is the way you present this, right? And if you present it to the team, look guys, we’ve got this cool recording place. We’re listening to it because we want to improve. And the reason why you’re not at where I want you to be is mindful. And I’m going to change that now. And we’re going to listen to this together and I’m going to help you get better at doing what you do right. And really, really appreciate that. If you take it from the view of hell, what the hell were you thinking when you said this to a patient? You’ve just lost us X, Y, and Z, right? Takes a different different do that. Although, although I would say you say. You say what you just said. Yeah, but I would say that if Dora has a thing for her practice that’s built on. I don’t know. Let’s, let’s just say for the sake of the argument, respect for people. Yeah, you hear disrespect for people on that call that needs to be brought up and and and come down on to to set as a new owner, as a new owner provider, as a new owner to set the culture for what what what you’re saying as a as a as a new owner you do, if you do hear something like that, you do need to point it out.

Point it out. Yes. But it depends on what type of leader you are. Right. So come down on. Yeah, well it depends on what’s said doesn’t it. Depends what was said. Yeah it depends. It depends. I’ve heard it all, mate. All right. I think, I think we’ve listened to in excess of 10,000 calls over the last 13 years or whatever. Right. We’ve heard it all. But so yeah, I mean, maybe come down on it. It depends what was said. Right. But that is you want to try and get your team on your side through, of course, on this piece. And when you do they go from a from a point there’s a switch and it usually happens by about session four or five where they go from fearing that session and feeling anxious about it to actually looking forward to them and the fact that they know they’re being recorded. And you’re going to have a session soon, they’re on their A-game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are on their A-game. And the other thing is when it comes to the training sessions, they start thinking, I wonder if that amazing call I did on Wednesday, the 23rd of January is going to be in the training session because I smashed that call.

And, you know, and this is something I used to do for for my practices. I still do for a couple of the practices that I own. And my team are always saying to me that I did it. I hope that all I did on that day, I really want to listen to that because that was amazing. And what’s really important is when you get down to it is that you you say to those team members what went really well about the calls as well as what didn’t go so well. And it’s really important to point out that, oh, well, you answer the phone really clearly, really succinctly. You dealt with that objection really well. The way you talked about money was brilliant, Right? But at the beginning it sounded like you didn’t care. And this is what I got from it. Right? And so if, like what they call a shit sandwich is something like that, Right? Just just, just some good stuff on either side and the bad stuff in the middle. But really point out what what the good and the bad was in the call. I cannot recommend any other strategy beyond that. This is powerful as that for growing your business and learning about your patients. Excuse. Move. Should we move on? We should. Let’s go. Let’s. Let’s. Let’s now go to the way we normally start this podcast. So tell us about your upbringing. Where were you? Kuwait. Where else were you?

So. So I grew up in Hungary, and when I was 15, my parents took me to Kuwait against my will. And, you know, not ideal time to go to Kuwait, which is completely different culture and go to. But I couldn’t really speak good enough English like, you know, just land in English school where you have to learn everything in English and GCSEs, A-levels and, you know, it was just really hard. The first, like in the beginning, I didn’t understand anyone. I was just like, they always thought I was the quiet person and I’m like, the quiet person. I’m just stuck inside my body. So I say, Yeah, that was like my experience of, of being in Kuwait. And then as I was in a British school, I applied to England because they said, Oh, who wants to UCAS forms? I’m like, Yeah, me too. Me, whatever. And I was going to go back to Hungary, but when I got I got into university at Kuwait. I mean, in England, I was like, okay, well, I guess I’m going to England, but I wasn’t going to I never planned to stay here. It just happened.

How did you feel? How did you feel when you got to the UK from Kuwait? What was your sort of first feelings? Was that as you expected, it was better or worse? Was it?

Well, first of all, I did zoology first as well as a degree, But how I felt is again, it was another culture shock. I was like, Everybody is drinking so much, not wearing much clothes. I’m not used to it.

Because of.

Kuwait. Yeah. And what else was weird?

Where would you come? That was. Was it Bristol?

Bristol. Yeah. Bristol Uni. And it was quite hard, you know, just like I didn’t really know anyone and just be pushed into like you’re in a different country. I’ve never even been to the UK before. Actually came to say. Wow, Quite tough. I made a friend on a plane and she kind of supported each other. She was also Hungarian and she was doing a PhD in English. So kind of, you know, she was feeling the same way even though she was older.

So was that a three year degree?

Yeah, three year degree. The reason I don’t know I wanted to be is I wanted to be a vet originally, and I wanted to I didn’t get in. And then I thought after zoology, I can get into veterinary honest. I don’t know why I even. Anyway, I wanted to go into veterinary and then I found that if you already have a degree, you had to pay international fees. I was like, okay, well, I definitely can’t be doing that. But as I was finishing zoology, it was time like, you’re going to have a job. And I’m like, I have a job. I haven’t learned to do anything. And also, I always like horses. I always wanted horses. I’m like, I can’t see what job I can do with this that would let me have a horse. So I heard about this graduate entry program, and I did work experience as a dentist and I loved it. I just from the start, like I as I look at the work experience, I was like, please let me do it. I loved it. I loved everything about it.

So did you have to pay for an fees?

No.

Well, how come? How come you did? How come you did for a vet, but not for dentistry?

Well, because I don’t know. It was just like that at the time for veterinary. Even British people had to, if they already had a degree. But I think they changed that since. So yeah, that was the difference. And also because I got into graduate program, it was a brand new university Peninsula. I was like the first ever cohort. So I’m like, I’m not shy to start things that are new.

And I heard you found as you found your feet, that you found your feet in Britain a bit more by that time, surely, right?

Yeah. In fact, I really wanted to stay in Bristol for Bristol, but I really liked Peninsula’s course. Yeah, but as I didn’t get into Bristol, I actually had to go to Peninsular India. And anyway, so yeah, I really felt like I wanted to stay here and yeah, I really liked it.

So what were you like as a dental student?

I kind of separate, I guess we.

Were you Miss Kuwaiti or were you Miss Liberal British? Pretty like what had you had you brought the culture from there or had you adapted to the culture or were you conflicted in.

Probably conflicted. To be honest, I was probably just pretty quiet to start with because I was just shocked. But then pretty quickly by the second year, I was like, Yeah, I’m I’m European, I know how to do this. You know? I was like, I could pretty quickly got into how to be British student.

And so what was what was the university like for you both, both studying? Were you quite studious and diligent where you do have an active social life? What was, if you could summarise, door at university? What was that experience like?

So in my first degree, I was involved in scuba diving club. Mm hmm. And I was like, social secretary and vice president and that sort of thing. And that was my. I’m kind of not none of them. Like, I wasn’t too studious and I wasn’t to partying either. Like, I went. I went out. But yeah, balanced, I guess. And the only problem with me still is the problem. I’m quite last minute.

Last minute.

Yeah, Like studying this stuff.

Yeah, me too. So then what was your first job like? Did you.

So. Yeah, I did the two year bit in combo because best friend I made at Peninsula was going to combo. So I was like, Well, I guess you’re going that way. I’m going to go that way. And also we had a peninsula. We did some. We were at Truro for a while and I really liked it. So I was at trial and I worked at the hospital afterwards for Royal Cornwall Hospital for a year.

So then so then you’ve lost the university bit. You’re out in the big wide world. Did you feel that loneliness that many feel at that moment? You’re like, Is this it? You’re in that room and you haven’t got the sort of university life? Or did you really take to it?

I didn’t feel that straightaway because, you know, like there’s 12 people in one group and in Cornwall it was pretty much all my uni mates for the first year. It was like extension of university. I’m like, Oh, this is great. All my friends are here. We can go to the beach. Oh, cool. And as they were like slowly leaving Cornwall, that’s when I was a bit like, Oh, wait a minute, everybody’s left. I’m almost the last one standing. And that’s when I kind of started feeling like a bit lost. And that’s when I moved to Wiltshire.

Wiltshire? That’s where. That’s where you are now, right?

Yeah, that’s.

Right. So, you know someone who grew up in Budapest, was it.

Yeah.

And then Kuwait. Did you not feel like being closer to like the big towns, big cities, or is the life of life with horses sort of override all of that?

I actually really loved the countryside, the country living in the UK. That’s like the main thing. In fact, especially after Kuwait, like everything was brown. As soon as I come here, I was like, Oh my God, it’s all green. Everywhere is green. And I can go out. Like, especially as I had a horse, I knew I can’t be in like a big city. Truro. It was pretty ideal actually, because it was a city and there was stuff going on, but I could easily go and see my horse, which was not that far.

So you actually don’t just ride. You don’t just ride sort of leisurely. You just sort of compete.

With, Oh, well, I did, but I did. My horse is got arthritis and isn’t right at the moment so I’m currently not competing her but low level competing. Yeah.

Yeah.

And that kind of gave me like an extra purpose I guess. I’ve had my same horses like for eight, eight or nine years. She’s like my friend.

I mean, when I, when I spoke to you, I got the feeling horses were like your absolute sort of passion. Yeah. Did you have a horse when you were a kid as well, or was was UK the first time you had a horse? Kuwait. They’re into horses too.

I’ve been riding in Kuwait and I started when I was eight years old, but because my parents were doctors, they were like saying, well, you know, we understand you want a horse, but we don’t want a horse. So I guess you’re not going to have one because we don’t want one. But they said as soon as you have your own job and you can afford a horse, you can have your own horse. So that was kind of like as soon as I finished university, I went into like a horse sharing the first year. And then and then I had a horse after that. So I’m really into horses and I had to at some point. But that was too much.

Was it involved? Wasn’t like, I mean, the logistics, if I want to buy a horse, would I have to do.

I don’t I wouldn’t I wouldn’t straight away buy a horse. I was learn to like, know them a little bit and listen. Right.

What’s involved in owning one? You have to have a you have to rent a stable. What do you have.

When you’re a busy dentist like me? You obviously pay for full livery, which means that the horse is looked after and taken out to the field and all that stuff. But if you like want to do competing, you still have to have a training plan, you know, like the horse has to do, like packing this day, the next day like training, and you take them galloping and you go and do this competition and you know, it’s a lot of thought around it. It’s a bit like if you if you like, train yourself for competition or for marathon, you have to go out week after week and several times.

And do you do that or do you have somebody does part of that prep for you when you come and do the fine tuning or how does that work?

I tried getting someone else to do it for me, but the problem is, if you are going to compete a horse, you have to kind of not become one with the horse. But, you know, they’re kind of, yeah, born with the horse. Like if someone it can’t be done by someone else. Even though like looking after the horse it can, but nothing is replacing you in this. And also, to be honest, I find it quite a good like going riding and focusing on competing or even just going riding. It’s like I’m in the countryside, my mind is clear, I’m enjoying being here and I just feel like I really need I need it. When my horse was off for a while, I just felt like my health was going downhill, my mental health was going downhill. I just I don’t know. I just need.

It. It’s so interesting, isn’t it? Because Dora gets that from her horse. You get that from the gym or whatever. I was just you. What? You just took the words right out of my mouth, right? Is that this whole. We all have our thing right? And for me, definitely, I have a love hate relationship with the gym. Yeah, but. But when I’ve got that love relationship with the gym, I’m in my. I’m in my happiest place. Mentally, physically, work wise, everything right? And when I’m out of love with the gym, mentally, physically, everything. I mean, I’m in my darkest place right now. I’ve got friends who who have horses, who have described a similar sort of relationship with their horses. And, you know, and some of them are more involved with, you know, you have to excuse me. Right. But but the but the jumping thing, the showjumping is is that what it’s called?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So jumping this one.

Is that what you do or is it, is it.

I kind of did everything I do fun rides, which is like going on these organised rides and there’s just jumps you can jump. Then there’s eventing is like the ultimate where you have dressage. So jumping cross-country.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I started. Yeah, sorry.

Go on, carry on. Sorry to go on.

So you started going to say like I started with dressage to start with, but actually dressage is quite I know this is not a horse show, but it’s quite self when you get to know yourself, you know, because you want to get better, but you can’t because your body is not listening to you and you can’t tell the horse. You know what I mean? You get frustrated with yourself. It’s a real self-discovery.

Okay, okay. But but yeah, irrespective of which type of horse thing that my friends have done, the one thing is that they describe as that relationship and that bond. And a lot of them say to me that they wake up early in the morning before they go to work and do the they describe it as the mucking out. Yeah, I don’t do that. But but yeah.

I did at some point. But yeah but it’s.

That whole I think is whatever you’re doing right, it’s that ritual of going, waking up doing that thing, having that time with the horse, you know, doing whatever it is you’re building routine in your life, right. That gives you some kind of mental stability. And it’s the same with me in the gym and training and stuff, right? Just similar to that. It’s really interesting. Where are you at in your horse world right now with practice ownership?

And to be honest, I bought a practice now for a reason because I had two horses last year. Yeah, and that was too much. And then I decided that I’m going to sell the one that was taking the mickey out of me and. And just focus on the horse that I’ve had for a while. And I really have a good bond. And now I’m going to focus on practice instead. And that’s why I’m not competing at the moment.

Do you get patients? Do you get patients from the horsy world as well?

To be honest, no. But in wheelchair, like if I have a picture of my horse or start talking about that like any nurse like who works with me, they’re like any patients, like coming in. They were like, writing. Like, Dora is running late because she’s talking about the horse. What we’re talking about is the horse holding or like horses in general. Like, every patient knew that, like, Oh, how is your horse? And I used to do this like everybody in Wiltshire, like, had something to do with horses. Well, not everybody, but it’s quite common.

Yeah. So it’s helped.

In that sense. Yeah.

Yeah. So now. Now practice ownership. I want to know about the moment before you decided to buy this practice. Yeah. I want to hear the sort of the fears. I want to hear the process of getting the money. Did you save up? For how long did you save up? Did you know how much you had to save? To buy what? These sort of questions.

So it was only a year ago, actually, that I decided to buy this. Well, no, I know. Not true, because I’ve been looking at like, what was an offer like for last couple of years, but there was always a breeze around.

And you decided you were not going to move for the practice. The practice had to be near you. Yeah, that. That was decided because I.

Yeah, well, because I like this area. I like. I like the area. I like the people here. Yeah. I loved. Yeah. I didn’t want to move for so I had to, I was kind of waiting around to see if the right practice came. But also it kind of coincided with, like, too much pressure being put on onto me, and I just was working too much. Okay, this sounds a bit bad. I didn’t buy a practice so that I work less because it’s actually not what happened. That’s what’s happening. But it’s different sort of work that’s.

Been control of the work here. But go on. Were you aware of how much practices cost? Were you aware of how to look at books, profit and loss when you like? Did you understand the profit and loss statement? Did you know what percentage of the cost of the practice you needed before you got a loan? All of this stuff?

Well, basically, like all these dental companies, when you like, inquire, they will get you in contact. Yeah, they get you in contact with the finance person who will tell you who will look at your health or your savings and what outgoings have you got and see if you can afford a practice. That’s kind of all I’ve had.

So you you say you kind of knew the value. You weren’t going to buy a seven surgery practice. You kind of knew the value of practice that that you wanted to buy. Yeah. And then and then just before doing it, Just before doing it outside of, okay, should I buy this practice or that practice? Did you have fear?

Oh, yeah, all the time. Like, all I knew is I didn’t want to do NHS, which meant that I didn’t want to buy in any practice, which kind of cut down practices quite a lot. I only had to be close enough so that can’t cut it down even more. And then I even thought about doing a squat completely, But I didn’t. But I did kind of look into that, and I didn’t have enough money for that because they don’t loan you as much money. If you can’t prove that you’ve either been a practice owner or or that’s what I found anyway. Or, you know, you had to show, like, somehow you’re going to make it work, if you know what I mean.

So, Dora, I’ve been looking at your cases, and they’re nice. I like your hand, if you like. I like. I like what you do to smiles. But most of it looks like Invisalign based sort of line bleach type work is that if I was to characterise your practice or your ideal practice, would it be mostly AB and then some Botox? Is that is that how you would see it? As if you could fill up, fill up the day with that? Would that make you very happy?

Yeah, mostly around Bridge Bond and I recently started a digital smile design as well. Pretty much a month ago, which is what I’m starting to focus as much as on as possible and going to the course to Madrid. I feel like it’s really transformed my way of looking at dentistry and teeth and my stupid question Do guys know what DSD really involves? Because I have heard you talk about it before, but most people think it’s just lines and stuff, but it’s so much more.

Lines and curves right.

Now.

I would say to you, what stresses you.

Is basically showing the patient the ideal treatment plan of how their smile would look best or function best, because whatever looks that functions best. A lot of people think DSD is actually like aesthetic, but well, there is a aesthetic element in there. But DSD is mainly about function. It’s a it’s a full mass rehab digitally, so that whatever you show to the patient and they kind of have a trial experience as well, which I really enjoy your 3D print their outcome. So you’re 3D print like how they’re going to look like after Invisalign and bonding so that they know like what they’re going to look like themselves. So you video them before and you video them with their mock up and it’s called like emotional dentistry. So Christian Coachman calls it, and then you tell them how you’re going to get them there. And the DSD lab or DSD planning centre kind of follows you, kind of helps you get there as well. So they have specialists, orthodontists and all sorts of specialists, really periodontist, and they will tell you all the things you need to do to get the patient there. So you kind of get as much out of DSD as you want. You can ask not to get their opinion, but it’s extra. Basically.

That’s what practically when, when, when when you say I’m doing more DSD, does that mean you’re doing more sort of indirect work? Or what does that not mean?

Well, I mean, obviously, as having started my practice a few months ago and still just sold the cases. But it’s basically, as you are right, it is more Alan Bond, but it’s more the fact that the patient can really see where the end point is. I always tell them like it’s a bit like if I build a house, I don’t just start putting bricks down and see what happens. You want to know exactly how you’re going to look like. You want to know what the end product is, because most of the time the end product is only in our head.

So do you feel like there’s an element of diagnosis in it as well as communication?

It often is actually diagnosis, so it kind of like I find it really helpful doing Dswd because sometimes like the way I would set up an Invisalign case, they they kind of already say they kind of give me different ideas and be like, Oh yeah, I never thought about doing that. You know, like you always show the patient the ideal and if they want to compromise, they’re happy to compromise. But what I’m learning at the moment with this DSD as well, but they keep on reminding me, like Dora, remember, this is what they show the patient the ideal, if they don’t want the ideal will replan the case for you, but just show them the ideal so that they have their option.

So was it a one weekend course? What did you do?

Well, it was three. Was it three days or four days in Madrid? Residency one. It’s called With Christian Coachman. He does it kind of all around the world. But Madrid is where the planning centre is, and he talks about why dentistry is where it is, if that makes sense. It’s a lot more than just it’s not it’s not technical course. It’s more about how to think about the patient, how to elevate the patient experience, and how like when we buy stuff like I talked about, buying the practice is when it’s a big deal. It’s an emotional decision. That’s how people buy things and that’s how then you have to kind of make the whole buying experience more emotional. And he talks about how a lot of there’s a lot of like aesthetic dentistry that actually isn’t improving function. And any dentistry that you do, you should kind of think about how function has to be better, not just how it looks and things like that.

Sounds like it really changed you.

Yeah. Yeah. I really want to build my practice on this concept because I feel like, I don’t know, I just feel like everything Christian Coachman says. Like, it just makes so much sense to me.

When he says it in such a lovely way. Doesn’t he say it’s easy? You could say whatever. You’d be into it, right? Because. But. But, but, but, but, but. But he’s been. He’s been doing it a long time, and he’s the pioneer. So you’re not. You’re not, by the way, you’re not the only one who has been sold on the idea. Although when I speak to I don’t know if you heard my talk with Sandra, who’s Garcia, who’s a dswd person, or who else was I talking to her about it? Neil Gerard, Neil Gerard. And both of them both of them were saying it was it was a communication tool, not it didn’t particularly. Now maybe they’re very experienced and we’re all at different stages in our dentistry, right? But I remember Neil being very pretty sure that it didn’t, it didn’t help him in his diagnosis. It was just it would have helped him in talking to the patient, but it wasn’t helping him as a dentist. But that’s not your expertise actually helping you as a dentist.

Well, sometimes they come up with things that I didn’t think about and I’m not. I feel like because I’m on my own in the practice, I feel like it’s a it’s like an extra, extra thing like that. Another specialist looked at my case and how it helped me looking at it differently. But it is a communication tool largely. But I think what is what is a big deal about it as well is when you sell like patient to mock up is the fact that you can import the DSD mock up into Invisalign because they’ve got a partnership. So you can actually then move the teeth to the position you sold the patient to. So it’s not like, you know, either. Yeah, that is the actual biggest thing about it because you can otherwise patient can try on the teeth, but how are you going to move the position to that position exactly. If you can’t import it into Invisalign.

Now now I get it. Now I get there’s a big difference. That’s a big difference.

Exactly. Because before this method, I sometimes have done like some format cases and then and the patient said, well, it’s not exactly like the mock up. And I’m like, Yeah, you’re right. It’s not exactly like. Why isn’t it? And now that there’s a better way, as I said, this Invisalign collaboration with DSD is, I think, the big thing that sold it to me.

Stork patient journey. Why did you manage to do anything new that you you can definitely do going forwards? For me, for me, it would be like calling my patients after a day of dentistry. I find that really nice. Lovely for me. And then very quickly, I outsourced it to my nurse to call three, four patients every day. Have you done that?

No, I haven’t done that.

It’s a stunner and it’s an easy one to do. And me and Prav went on a course once, wasn’t it? And the guy was calling his patients before they were coming in and saying, hey, this is doctor. Whatever. Just just want to just want to say. And it wasn’t even a dentistry course. It was it was a marketing course. There was he was still calling his patients. Yeah, he was calling patients before they’d even come in to new patients and saying, this is doctor, whatever, but just want to see if there’s anything you needed before you come. Anything in particular you want me to do or want to be aware of before you come in? It’s massive. It’s massive.

I mean, I get my DCO to call them, but it sounds like this sounds better.

Listen, there’s a guy in. You know, the name escapes me completely, right? But there’s a. Do you know what I. You know what I think it is? It’s that guy, you know? It’s the same name. I’m bringing up the same trick. You say talk triggers. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Forget it. Let’s move on. What’s your what’s your what’s your ideal In five years time? And then in ten years time, what would be your future plans in dentistry?

Um, so one thing that I want my practice to do more is, as I said, to change a patient journey, as Christian Coachman said, so the patient doesn’t go straight into surgery, but you kind of do the first appointment in a non dental environment.

Yeah.

And then I want to empower more nurses and more of the support staff to be more involved. The therapist like I want to get like a therapist to take things off me that are more routine so that I can do more things that I want to do and I want to get my practice to be known more for comprehensive dentistry, although I don’t think people really know what that means. No. And but more like, well, we’re going to look more holistically.

But do you think do you think you’ll always keep it as this very small sort of boutique setup? You therapists like that, or do you think you’re going to bring on associates grow?

Oh, I definitely need I definitely need to bring in an associate, which is a challenge.

But each of these is a nightmare, right? Growing three associates is a whole other management nightmare. You know.

Sometimes I.

Say no.

Yes, no, I need to get one associate. But what’s going to be really difficult is getting someone who who’s really bought into the practice ethos, which is why I don’t want to take on an associate at the moment because I need to build with a threat to is first. And once I kind of got the winning formula, then it’s time to replicate it. That’s kind of my idea.

Are you thinking Replicate as well? Are you thinking more than this one practice?

Possibly. If it works, Yeah. Yeah. Probably more than one practice. I don’t want, like, too big a practice. I’d rather have more than one small that has the same ethos. That’s what I’m thinking at the moment. But it’s early days.

I mean, you’ve got to examine why that is, right? Why are you thinking more than one practice? You have to think about that. Why? Because if if it’s a if it’s a case of access to the brand, that the guy lives in Chippenham and lives in Bristol can’t both get access to that brand, then. Okay, But the brand has to work in both locations without you there. And as far as running a business right, one big centre is way easier than for small ones. Like way easier. So be careful of that idea. See.

It was access to the brand. That was my idea. It’s quite difficult to scale businesses, especially if the principle isn’t there. I guess the principle would have to be there. You see.

Sometimes I see this all the time and I often have excited, excited phone calls from clients of mine who’ve got, say, practice number one. And it’s almost like they’re about to announce that they want to marry me because they say, Prav, I’ve got some really exciting news for you. And then there’s a bit of silence, and then they say, We’ve just found a practice and we’re going to buy it. And and I’m usually the the guy who talks them out of doing it. I’ve talked more people out about setting up practice number two than I have given my blessing to say go ahead and do it right. And the question that pace is really important, why it’s really important, why you’re doing this right. And then we get involved in the conversation. And the why sometimes often revolves around not necessarily access to brand, but money building business and building the value of the practice to whatever the end goal is going to be. Right. So then we talk about all the different areas they have not explored with practice, number one. And I can see that with a client of mine who’s done incredibly well. We look to first of all, you’ve got a dental chair that’s open from 9 to 5, right? What’s happening? What’s happening with that chair between five and nine and what’s happening with that chair on weekends? Could that be optimised? What’s happening with everyone’s hourly rate or the type of treatment or whatever, depending on what your goal is? Right? You have the same the same doesn’t apply to everyone.

So it depends on what their why is. But let’s say it’s the money thing. But what this client did is they changed their pattern of operating to shift work. So eight till to two to late. So they’re open from 8 to 8 every day now and that’s how they manage to stick another X number of 100,000 on their turnover without practice. Number two and 8 to 9 months later, we’re now having the same conversation, you know, hey, private practice number two, And I’m like, with my blessing, my friend, let’s go for it, because now we know we’ve hit maximum potential. But the other thing is, I know a lot of practice owners, I know a lot of multiple practice owners and practice owners have gone from 1 to 2 to 3 to 2 to multiple. And the one thing that’s really clear is practice two does not mean to X and practice three does not mean three X immediately. And just because you’ve had roaring success at practice, number one, it’s a lot harder to replicate that. And a lot of what you’re doing, whether you’re delivering the dentistry in doing it or not, it’s your presence that drives that growth is your presence is your leadership, it’s your direction, it’s that that drives the growth more often than not. And that’s something that’s really important to consider when you’re thinking about location number two.

Yeah, So, yeah, I have. Thought about this shift work situation. And you’re right, that’s probably the first step. But because the building is smaller, I have thought about the fact, like at some point I will hit capacity and that’s the time when I need to make a decision whether I’m going to move it somewhere else or or have another location or just be like, No, this is it. I don’t know. I don’t know this to anything.

Of course. Okay. Well, it’s been it’s been a fascinating chat in between the technical troubles with this, but we finish it on the same questions. Every time. Sidora. Imagine it’s your your last day on the planet. And you are surrounded by your loved ones and those that mean the most to you. And you had to leave them with three pieces of wisdom. What would they be?

Find your passion and follow it. Believe in yourself because you can do anything. I believe in that. You need to believe in yourself and you can achieve great things and then always be genuine and treat people like you’d like to be treated.

Brilliant. Brilliant.

Okay. And we also have the dinner didn’t dinner party. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. See, now she knows they match, you know, Fancy dinner party. Sweet. Yes. Apart from apart from problem payment, who else would be there?

Elon Musk would be one of my number one. I’m a huge fan of Elon Musk and everything he does for us. I think he’s like, super human and I’d love to meet him. How he achieved what he achieved. And I guess number two is David Attenborough. Because again, same thing like what he’s he’s seen and and at his age he still wants to help us save the planet.

You can he must be the most loved person. Genuine person.

I know. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I want I wanted to be David like. Like David Attenborough since I was a child. That’s why I did this degree.

I Yeah.

But then the third one, although it’s Christian encroachment.

Christian, Christian, Christian could be the answer to my, my third question, which I’ve got a new question. Go on. Your dream guest on this show. You can have him as Christian coachman as that as that if you want, unless you have a different guest.

Oh, me?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Christian quarter.

Okay. So that’s going to be your third. Who’s going to be your third dinner party guest? We’ve got we’ve got Ellen and David Attenborough hanging out together.

Mm hmm. Someone like Leonardo da Vinci or someone who’s, like an inventor who sees a world differently by. I love people like that.

Excellent. Excellent. It’s been a real pleasure. It’s been a real pleasure. Thank you, Dora. Thanks. Thanks for doing it.

Thank you for inviting me.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

Thanks for listening, guys. If you got this file, you must have listened to the whole thing. And just a huge thank you both from me and pay for actually sticking through and listening to what we had to say and what our guest has had to say, because I’m assuming you got some value out of it. If you did get some value out of it, think about subscribing and if you would share this with a friend who you think might get some value out of it too. Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Thanks. And don’t forget our six star rating.

 

The course I’ve got is designed for everyone to learn it very quickly and either do it yourself or you quickly learn that maybe you just don’t like surgery and it’s not for you. But being a dentist, even though implants isn’t taught well, undergraduate is up to each dentist to understand implants, how they work. Pros and cons of it. So at least you can refer your patient to the right person. Yeah, because your patients expect you as a dentist to understand it all. And if you don’t understand it, then they don’t think of you as a very good dentist, even though you might be brilliant at composites at Crowns That smile makeovers in that. But if you don’t understand anything about dentists, they don’t think you’re as good. So it’s important whether you end up doing implants or not. You should do a course with hands on, not just theory. You might find that you love doing the surgery or you might find you don’t. In which case you can just restore. Or you might say, Sod it, I just don’t want to touch it. But at least you’ve got some knowledge that you can give to the patient. So they still got confidence with you as a dentist, as being a competent dentist who knows things, even though it’s not necessarily your field.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Kick the theme. Welcome to the Denver Leaders podcast. Thank you. And you know, like yesterday evening at the near down event, we were sat down on the same table. I think we even shared a pudding. Yeah.

And yeah, you want the good one.

And we just sat there and shot the breeze for a couple of hours, right? Yeah. You know, sometimes you connect with people, right? Well, whatever it is, the chemistry is there. And there are a lot of stories shared, and I want to try and capture some of those guys today. Yeah. I think one of the things that struck out, you know, that people like people like themselves, we’re both shopkeepers. That’s right. Yeah. So what I’d like to do is go straight back to your childhood. Right. Tell me where you were. Sort of brought up a little bit about your upbringing and tell me a few about the shopkeepers stories of being brought up in that environment and what that was like. Okay.

So I was brought up in Wembley, north west London. You know, had my father especially had worked himself up, I think he came into the UK in the fifties. He came to the UK basically just to earn money to give back home, because I think as he was growing up, he remembers having to borrow money to buy food, buy food and put it on the table and then taught like earning some money and paying it back. And he didn’t really like that. So for him, he actually came to the UK to to earn a living and send money back. And I think he always thought he would always go back home.

Well, his home.

Home is in Lahore in Pakistan, so he worked sort like all the hours in the day. He would he would study, he would do sometimes sort of like evening classes. He’d just find whatever jobs he could. He sums up be an usher in the theatre. I remember he used to sort of meet people like Charlton Heston and Gregory Peck, and he used to say to me how he used to meet them and and whatnot. But he was a really, really hard worker. Then later on, he had an operation. I think I was around about eight years old when he had an operation which went badly wrong. So he’s in the hospital for about a year. And I remember those really hard times because I couldn’t afford much. I remember thought I would be lucky to have one meal a day, and even when I went to school, I didn’t have any money to buy lunch. And if I ever got $0.10, it really meant a lot, right? That really meant a lot to me. And sometimes I wouldn’t want to spend it because I knew how hard it was to get the money those days. And then my father almost passed away because of what happened. And when he got regained his fitness and came back, he then had to figure out how to make some money for the family.

So that’s how they started the grocery store. And he built that up and mum, Dad really worked really hard. Their main thing was. At kids. We got a build a future for our kids, which is notable because they weren’t weren’t really thinking for themselves. I think our parents mind like yours. They think about their kids or what they’re going to provide for us, that we can become either doctors or lawyers or whatever it might be, because that’s what would make them proud. So I remember having to help them out in the shop and waking up at five in the morning, counting the papers newspaper. And I used to do the paper rounds as well, right. Especially on Sundays when they got this bloody big time newspaper. You can’t put the whole damn thing through the letterbox. Right. And I used to wish, you know, like in the States, remember, you know, they just throw them, right? Yeah. But no, we’ve got these little tiny boxes. I got to put this massive paper through the whole thing, you know? So I remember sort of hating to wake up in the morning, and I was only be doing paper rounds on weekends. And I know my parents will work in sort of like seven days a week. And the only day they kind of had off was Christmas Day.

But you just a quick question about the shop. Were you living nearby? Was the shop part of your home? What was the what was the setup? Well.

The set up was that we had in fact, they had two grocery stores. I had one at one point in time where it was like five, six miles away from where we lived. And then when they sold that and we moved out into Camberley, then we were living above the actual shop itself. But I really didn’t see my parents very much. I mean, you went to school and did things and they were just working full on. And I’d always wanted to be a football player. And I think my dad only ever saw me play once. But when he saw me, he was impressed, which really pleased me. But I wish he had seen me play more because those days, all I want to do was be a football player. That was it. So anyway, we had quite a hard life. We appreciate money and everything like that. And thanks to my parents, I became what I became, you know?

You know, I speak to people about the upbringing in the shop. Yeah. The learning, the art of hard work. Right. So. So I work incredibly hard, have done during my whole career. Right. But I still do not think that the hard work and effort that I put into my career even compares to what my dad was doing back in the day. I agree with you.

I agree. I mean, that’s real hard.

Work.

Now, most people think I’ll work really hard because. I have a few practices. Even when I do my normal 9 to 5. Let’s be honest where I eat food and then actually I’m on the computer or I’m brainstorming or I’m thinking about things. So technically, I’m probably working most of my day. But you know what? It’s so much fun. I don’t realise I’m working. Whereas when my parents will work, I know they really enjoy the work with hard labour. It was hard work, you know, throwing things around, going to cash and Carrie doing this, counting balls, counting the newspapers, returns and all the rest of it. And I think the other thing I probably learned from them was by working in such environment how to communicate with different types of people.

All right. Nail on the head, mate.

You know, I used to be really surprised how my father was. Really how cosy he could talk to anyone about anything. And it was more friendly with the gangsters that came in the store than anything else. And they ended up being his best mates. So I think inadvertently I didn’t realise it, but it probably taught me how to communicate, which helps me with my patients.

It’s really interesting you say that Payman, who’s a co host of this podcast, he always says that sort of mine and Kailash is, shall we say, part of our success is drawn from the fact that when we were in the shop we’d be serving everyone from your old day, your 85 year old ladies coming in for a milk and bread. Yeah, through to the young kids, the good for nothings, you know, and everyone in between, right? That’s right. And you just learn how to adapt and have different conversations with human beings and doing that from a very young age. Yeah. Muscle memory, right? Absolutely. Do you find the same?

Absolutely. You know, you can relate to people more easily. And it’s like, you know, when you see you know, for example, when Sir Alex Ferguson being a man United supporter. Yeah. And when Cantona came in, like you had to treat him different because he was different to the others and you can understand it. Whereas some people were like, well, why isn’t he the same with everyone? But you can’t.

Be.

You know, same with our staff. We’ve got to treat each person slightly differently in order to get the best out of them. So it’s understanding the psyche of who we’re dealing with.

And so fast forward and from there, you know, you’re brought up in the corner shop and whatnot. Fairly sort of unprivileged upbringing. Actually, one.

Thing I didn’t tell you.

Well.

That grocery store is my practice, right? So it’s my father’s dream. That I took over the I converted the grocery store into my practice. So he asked me. I was doing my master’s degree. And he friends and he was like, I want you to take over. And I said, You know what? I don’t want it. I want to go to the states. I want to study more. I had these dreams that I was going to work in central London as some hotshot specialist doing whatever. And life’s got a funny way of coming back around. So far, they’ve been working pretty much through almost 365 days for so many years. That his health wasn’t great. And when I said I didn’t want to take it on, they had almost sold it. And the day that the contracts were supposed to be signed, the other party didn’t come to the table. And it was it was heartbreaking because my mother and father had finally booked the holiday together, which they never had for over 20 years. So it’s heartbreaking to see that. And at that point, I was like. Okay, I’ll do it. So I took it on. And I guess my father really happy because that’s what he’d always wanted. I just looked at it as that, you know, maybe it’s just meant to be. Sometimes you think that’s your pathway as something happens and it just turns you into another direction.

Really interesting, because in a similar way, I still own the shop. Oh, really? Yeah. Funny, though, isn’t it? So when my dad gave it all up. Yeah, I bought it. And I still rent it out today. Right. To another shopkeeper. All right. He rents the shop. Yeah. And I have much to do with it. Yeah. Every now and then, I’ll go back live past. And it’s actually my dad today. He collects the rent. Right. Yeah. But it’s got history and nostalgia with it, you know? And I’m sure you’re stepping into your practice, and it’s. Well, that created this, right?

That’s right. That’s right. Well, obviously, you used to live upstairs, so it’s only recently we just finished doing a refurb. So we’ve added two more clinical rooms upstairs, which used to be our living room. And my parents bedroom and my bedrooms changed into a kitchen. So it’s nuts.

Yeah. It’s absolute madness. So from there, where is your career headed? So what were you like at school? We were swats. We were a bit of a jack, the lad, you know. What sort of grades did you need at that time? And. And you mentioned football earlier, right. We were you this wee this kid who was going to become a.

Supposed to be the next.

Star.

And I really believe that had I not had the injuries, I would have been a top player because I just loved playing with the football. I didn’t need anyone with me, but I just love football. And if you’d asked me what I want to do, I’ll just say I want just to play football. But obviously, as I got older, starting to get sort of problems without my my knees and my ankles and I couldn’t finish games. So. It was a good thing my father instilled in me from before. Yeah, you can be a sportsman if you like, but educate yourself at the same time. So in effect, I had a fallback plan in a way, so. I still didn’t know what I wanted to do. And just so happen that I like to go. And she wanted to be a doctor. And she said to me, Well, I know you want to do Spore and that why don’t you be a dentist? So my reaction was. Dennis Yeah, I can’t see myself looking in patients mouths all day as you go. No, no, no. Look at you as a business.

How old would you? I will do you then do.

C 1516.

So what? This was a young sort of. Yeah. Childhood crush sort of, Yeah. Special relationship or. Yeah.

First kiss you’d say Yeah.

Yeah.

And then she mentioned about dentistry and then it made sense. Because she would say, Well, you can be your own boss just working many days as you like. And if you’re still in sport, you do sport most of the time, do one or two days there, make a little bit of money because back in the day, sportsmen didn’t make much money. Your career was also short, so probably that was best advice I was ever given. And obviously I was tempted because she said, Well, I’ll I’ll be at medical school as well. We’ll be there together.

But she’d mapped out the dream.

Yeah, she’d mapped out the dream. And then when I got there, then, then that was it. She went her way and I went my way. But it set me on the pathway. And I think it was also good because it sort like pleased my parents as well, because, as you know, they want a doctor or a dentist, a lawyer in the family. So it suited them. Medicine was something I’d never would have touched anyway, because I don’t like to be on call 24 seven. And the life of a doctor doesn’t really suit me.

Yeah.

So yeah, it was it all worked out in the end.

And so where did you go to dental school?

Hospital. London, which was my first choice. I was so happy to get there.

Everyone who goes to go says it’s the best. Yeah. Why is that? Just because it’s a snob factor. It’s not. It’s a.

Snobby thing, let’s put it that way. And we love to be snobby that we were. All right. So a load of BS. But guys, people are the best.

So yeah.

It was, it was nice to be there because honest, if I’m honest with you, I didn’t think I’d get into dental school anyway.

Why?

Because I wasn’t. I wasn’t the best student. I’m thinking about my next football game or something else. I, I wasn’t the best student, to be honest. The time when I became the best student was after I qualified. After I qualified, and when life became a little bit more serious. Because now you’ve got to pay for your mortgage, you got family and all the rest of it. Now it’s like, okay, now I really need to perfect my craft. Whereas before it was just a case of, Well, I just got to get past this. Let’s just get past that because not like industry don’t have sort of like first class, second class to 1 to 2 just pass fail or honours right now. Wasn’t going to be an honest student because I enjoy life too much. Yeah. So it was just about just getting through.

Got you. What are you fondest memories of dental school or that era.

Diwali.

Shows. Yeah.

Going to going to out with the friends partying. Don’t remember too much of the studying side of things, to be honest with you. But is this social element just mix in with lots of different people and those lucky to have a really fun group of people as well. So that was great.

So you qualified? Yeah. First job.

First job vocational training.

In Ilford.

In Essex. It was all right. I can’t say I loved it. I think I always felt there was something more out there for me. Interestingly enough, when I qualified, people were just talking about implants and I remember the professors at university, there’d be the odd one who’s just done his first implant or something and it’d be really excited about it. And I was like, You know what? I really like to do that because I can see a need, because there’s the thing is, you don’t have that many specialities in dentistry, so you go orthodontic orthodontics, okay, moving teeth. It’s not to me, it’s not very exciting. Then you got root canals. Everyone hates having root canals. Then don’t fancy that one either. Perio period is like an invisible disease that most patients don’t even know. They’ve got it. And their arms give me thousands of pounds and I’m just going to clean a few bacteria. But they’re never going to go and you’re still going to lose your teeth.

And then There’s no disrespect to the periodontal. No.

No, Sorry, sorry, sorry. But for me, implants were straightforward. You’ve got a missing tooth that’s replace it. Yeah. And so that really attracted.

Me early on in your career. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it was because no one else was thinking in those lines as well. But it was something I always wanted to do. And then they came out with a master’s degree in implant ology at the Eastman’s that I really wanted to get involved in that, and I was lucky enough to be given the chance to do it. So for that, I’m really, really grateful.

For that, though, didn’t you? It wasn’t easy to I don’t mean easy to get on, but there were certain circumstances in your life that you made some decision. Hard decisions, right? What were they?

It was hard. I guess what happened was I had applied, I think it was in 98, I applied to do the master’s degree in implants. At that time, my daughter was born in 98. My son was going to be born in 99. At the same time was the time that I said to my father, I take over the business and turn it into a practice. And I just bought a house. And I jokingly said to some friends and I said, You know what? The funniest thing that will happen now is if they offer me a place on the master’s degree because I’m kind of maxed out with everything. If they offer it to me, I know what to do, because financially I’ve just got these the house and the practice to make. How can I do a full time course? Anyway, I thought, well, figure out if it ever happens and. I think someone who is already on the master’s degree course who was earmarked to start it, had to pull it out. So one space was left and they called me. So I think they called me around end of July and the course starts in September. And my accountant said, No, you can’t afford to do it. If you can delay it, delay it. But now you can’t afford to to do all the things that you’re doing. Which made my missus a little bit worried that what’s going to happen if we can’t afford anything. And then I spoke to my mentor and wonderful guy, Tommy Datta, who is ex president of AOG. And he said to me, Look, education. Is great. If that’s what you want to do. Forget about the money. Just do.

It.

Is going to help you later on. Don’t listen to anyone else. You want to do it? Do it. Don’t worry. And I think he was one of the very few people that supported me to do it. And I was like, Let’s do it then. So I went for it. So it was it was a really hard year trying to do it. And I think that’s what also led me to make my courses because I had to take a lot of time out. It cost me a hell of a lot of money. Because they still had to pay for everything. Another thing that happened was while I was trying to make the practice, my architect ran off with my money. And then I was quite good at graphical design. So I actually did all the technical drawings because I had to do change of use and everything. And I had to submit the applications for that. And then I did all the decoration myself at the practice while I was studying, you know, five days a week at the Eastman’s. So it was hard. And plus, you know, with a two year old and a one year old and the practice wasn’t close to my house. My house was in Wembley. So I bought a place back in Wembley and my practice in Camberley an hour away. So there was a journey involved as well. But they all worked out in the end.

Moving on that journey from, shall we say, doing your MSC. And you mentioned that you had this certificate, but it didn’t give you the hand skills, right? Which is sort of part of your motivation. How did you get the the practical skills for implant dentistry?

Difficult. It was really.

Hard. I think one.

Of the things was I did get a handful of patients come in and they wanted treatment. And in a way, I kind of felt like I’m an actor and I’m on stage. Because even though your heart’s beating that you think I don’t know really what I’m doing. I’ve read all the theory. I know it. But I haven’t had that much experience in front of the patient. I can’t be like that. I’ve got to say yes. I’ve got to talk it up. I’ve got obviously tell them the pros and cons of it. But if I’m your dentist, you have to have confidence in me. So I can’t give you any of my question marks and bubbles that are up here. So that was interesting. But it led me to want to go fast, track myself, to learn as much as I can. So I kind of travelled the world. I met up with some of the top speakers at the time and tried to shadow people, trying to learn techniques and looking at the finer details of things and doing some courses just to get some one or two hands on courses as well. So it took me a while to pick up the skill. And the other thing I felt was at the beginning, when you’re doing implants, you need to know somebody behind you that if you made a mistake, someone can support you.

Yeah.

And once I’d done my master’s degree, I wasn’t so sure I had that support. So it makes you a little bit more anxious because when you’re doing surgery, we’re taught to deal with teeth, and now you’re talking about bone and nerves and the sinus and things like that, things that actually you probably don’t know as well as you should do. So you can get a little bit too apprehensive about things, but if you’ve got a backup, it can fill you up with a little bit of confidence and it makes it easier. So having gone through what I went through, that’s why I made the courses so that you could work at your practice. Not take too much time off and still get more hands on in my course than you thought you would on a masters degree. Not to say that you shouldn’t go and get a masters degree. So I’ve had quite a number of delegates who’ve done my course. Started to do more implants, which was great because now they’re starting to pay the money back and starting to earn money off what they learned from me enough that they can now pay to do a part time master’s degree. But the benefit of that is now they understand what they’re being taught at the master’s degree. Because unless you’ve done surgery, you don’t understand what the other professors are teaching you because you’ve never done it.

Yeah.

Because the feedback I got from my past delegates who ended up with master’s degrees was that 90% of the delegates hadn’t placed implants, but they’re on the master’s degree. And obviously I went on my master’s degree with with very minimal knowledge as well. So probably a lot of things went over my head. Now, I didn’t catch anything. It’s only when I start to practice that the small details become really important, which you probably missed in your lectures.

Yeah.

So lots of people who went and done their master’s degree with no knowledge didn’t complete. Or if they completed it, they didn’t have the hands on skills. So I’d say to anyone who wants to start out in implants, I think the course I’ve got is designed for everyone to learn it very quickly and either do it yourself or you quickly learn that maybe you just don’t like surgery and it’s not for you. But being a dentist, even though implants isn’t taught well, undergraduate is up to each dentist to understand implants, how they work. Pros and cons of it. So at least you can refer your patient to the right person. Yeah, because your patients expect you as a dentist to understand it all. And if you don’t understand it, then they don’t think of you as a very good dentist, even though you might be brilliant at composites at Crowns That smile makeovers in that. But if you don’t understand anything about dentists, they don’t think you’re as good. Because I get that all the time. When I get patients who self refer to myself as they just haven’t got the confidence in the dentists or the team because they know nothing about implants. And the patient seems to know more than what they know. So it’s important whether you end up doing implants or not, you should do a course with hands on, not just theory. You might find that you love doing the surgery or you might find you don’t, in which case you can just restore.

Or.

You might say, Sod it, I just don’t want to touch it. But at least you’ve got some knowledge that you can give to the patient. So they still got confidence with you as a dentist, as being a competent dentist who knows things, even though it’s not necessarily your field.

You touched upon mistakes earlier and it’s how we all learn. We all make mistakes. Right. And I don’t think you heard the concept of black box thinking. We borrow it from the airline industry where there’s a there’s a black box right in every aeroplane, right? Yeah. And it records everything the good, the bad and the ugly and any of the bad stuff is shared industrywide. Right. And that’s why flying safety is what it is today, because they’re open and they share not just if BA’s flying, they’ll share it with everyone else and so on and so forth across the industry. But in medicine, it’s very good at sweeping things under the carpet and covering things up. And if we took that same approach in health care, I think we’d be light years ahead.

Yeah, I. I partially agree with you, and I partially don’t. Let’s put it like this. Docs and dentists ought to be competent enough that any error is within a range that isn’t critical.

Right? Yeah.

And things sometimes go wrong. Like I said to you before. I might have had a rough night and maybe my surgery wasn’t as done as well as on a different day.

Or you didn’t have your three Weetabix in the morning.

Exactly. Exactly. You know, so as long as and this is, I think, an important thing, I like to think that my course teachers, they even if let’s say you don’t do anything perfect, you’re within a range that the patient won’t realise that it’s not perfect. Yeah. Because the outcome looks good.

Fine. Right. Yeah.

And so if medicine could be like that, because the biggest worry is if you start getting people scared of doctors and dentists. Everyone’s going to be too scared to do surgeries for patients. Patients are going to be too scared to see the doctor. So there’s got to be a little bit of protection at the same time. But there has to be reflection by dentists and doctors as to what they’ve done. So on our courses, we very much also go into complications and how to avoid it, right? Because it’s important to have that understanding what can go wrong and how to avoid things and minimise those issues. So because also don’t forget when you’re flying a plane, you’ve got hundreds of people on board.

And life or death.

And it’s life or death, at least in this situation. Hopefully it’s not a life or death situation. It might be that cosmetically the tooth not perfect in the implant field, sure, but hopefully we can rectify it.

But on the whole, if I were if you were to take all the mistakes you’ve ever made, multiply it by every surgeon, and that gets incorporated into the teaching, the learning, the protocols, maybe we’d advance better. Who knows? But my question. Have you ever had an oh shit moment where you’ve been in a patient’s mouth and you think. What have I done? Where you’ve made that mistake. Error, whatever it is, whether you liked experience, dropped an implant in a sinus and had to fish it out.

Okay. The reason why you see my eyes roll all over the place is you downloads.

Yeah.

But it’s because I’m a perfectionist. Because after I do something and I analyse it. I’m quite critical and I’m hard on myself. Because that’s the only way to grow. So if it’s not quite right, even though no one else can see it, I don’t like it. So I’d like to say that probably on most cases, it’s seldom that I think, you know what? That’s perfect. Quite often. Okay, it’s not bad, but it could be better. Or maybe I could have done this. So I think reviewing your own work and being harsh on yourself is probably the best way to be. And then to be able to teach what you’ve learned to others so that they can learn from your mistakes. But also, it’s important that they also everyone makes their mistakes, but as I said, within a limit.

So your moment, do you as a student, younger dentist or whatever, is there any stories you can tell me? Any moments where you thought, bloody hell, I’ve dropped the implant and I’ve pulled the wrong tooth out? Anything like that where you’ve had to go back to the patients? I’m really sorry this has happened. I’m going to swear it away. No, no, no.

I mean, not that comes to my mind, to be honest with you. I’ve been frustrated where I thought I could get an implant. In the end, I couldn’t do it. But with implants. It’s not life and death. Wait three months, we’ll try it again. I think in the implant field, it’s knowing where your limitations are, but when it doesn’t quite work out on the day, just tell the patient and happen. But it’s not the end of the world. We can come back and try it again. So I think in the implant world, it’s it’s relatively forgiving if you understand what you’re doing. So. No, I’m sure I’ll think of something later on.

That’s fine. We’ll come back to it if you do. Just in terms of teacher. Obviously, you’ve had hundreds of delegates through your program now. Can you pick winners? Can you spot the good students and look good? Do you know the ones who you know are going to be successful?

It’s really interesting because. Once you start to make contact with people who want to do your course once they’ve signed up, I always try to, in my mind, think, okay, where do I think this person is going to be even I don’t know them. You just I just find it interesting. It’s also, you know, okay, where do I think this person is going to be on a scale of 1 to 10? Then when we start the courses and the lectures start, then I say, Well, why am I changing my grade or what? And then once they’ve done the surgery again, analyse it. To be honest with you, you’ll always get surprises because sometimes the person who I think is going to be the absolute best, who ask the most questions, sensible questions, and you think, you know what, This guy really knows this stuff. A lot of times they can’t do surgeries, you know, their hands not in it, or they can’t spatially see what they’re doing wrong.

All right.

And then you’ve got other people who you think, you know what? He hasn’t got it, but he’s got drive to make it. He’ll make it. So it’s really about how much passion and drive that you’ve got to want it. So I’ve seen some people, I think, gosh, that person’s got no hope. They finish the course and out of that group, they’ve done more implants than anyone else. So in a way, it kind of teaches me not to judge. My first instinct is you’ve got to give everyone a chance. But it’s still a fun game to play.

So in terms of the ones who have been super successful, what is it? What are the key ingredients if you are looking for somebody? Is it the ones with the drive? Is it the ones who are just really good with their hands? Is it the ones who’ve got the earlier? You mentioned that back, right In the early days, when you’re doing your first few implants, you put on this actor’s face. Right. And it reminds me of the conversation I had with my brother when he placed his first implant. He rings me up because I’ve just placed my first implant. I said, Oh, well done. How did that go? He goes, Well, the old dear, As you sat back in the chair, she looked back at me. And she said. How many of these have you done? And he said, I look too straight in the eye and said, I’ve lost count. Look. And that was his answer. But it was that bullish confidence that gave her the confidence for him to then go and do that. Right. So what is it about the students? Is it that is it the the rapport you build with the patient? Is it the hand-eye coordination spatial thing?

You can break it down into lots of parts, but I think the most consistent thing is that they have to understand it’s the beginning of their implant journey and they have to have the drive to keep studying, to keep coming to meetings like this, meeting like we’re at today. Yeah. And to be honest, when we have meetings like this, sometimes we learn more from talking to each other, exchanging ideas, you know, over lunch, over dinner. And that’s where you get a lot of the learning. So those people who keep doing courses continue. Education and implants are the ones that do really well. The ones who don’t like, like they stop. Some of them do, okay. But they’re not really going to end up doing loads and loads of implants. So for example, I’ve got, you know, a couple of my top students is Imran and Wes, who did my course. And the thing they had in common was drive one too. They weren’t necessarily the most gifted when they started. So if I were to sort like grade them in the group, they may not have been the best, but they were critical. They would always ask question, How can I improve? How is this one invalidation for what they’ve done and looking at things critically. But more than that, they really wanted to be involved in implants. And you have to have that attitude because like with any industry, things move on and you can’t stay with the old knowledge because what I taught ten years ago, many, many things probably aren’t correct today. So you have to think of it as the beginning of a longer journey.

Yeah. Well, one of the questions that we often ask in this podcast is just giving advice to your younger self. If you if you looked back and reflected on on your life and you could do it all over again, would you do anything differently?

No, I wouldn’t change anything.

Why? I think.

So now I just got a positive mindset and I think that kind of comes from my sports side as well. And. There’s no regrets on anything that I’ve done. I’ve always tried to make the right decisions, although sometimes they might be wrong decisions, but you realise it afterwards. But sometimes wrong decisions can lead to better decisions later on in life. Because, as I said, unless you make some mistakes, you can’t grow. So it’s just part of life. I’m I feel really fortunate to be in the position that I am. And it’s nice also sort like to come to these events and the people I’ve taught still remember and thank me for putting them on this pathway and how they’re doing well and things like that. And it’s just also nice to hear good things from patients and stuff. So I don’t have any I don’t have any regrets other than that I didn’t become a football player.

And the last day on the planet, you’re with your kids and your loved ones and you’ve got to leave them with three pieces of a life advice. What would they be?

Have fun.

Do you?

And what else would it be? Just enjoy the journey. Don’t get caught up in material things because you can’t take all these material things with you. But if you enjoy your life and have fun, I think that means a lot more and you’ll touch a lot more people. And it’s not taking life too serious. I remember a story someone told me about. They had a patient who was a really hard grafter and he wanted to be a millionaire by his mid forties. So all he ever did was work. So he got into his mid-forties. He’s reached his.

Target.

But now he’s got cancer and doctors giving him five years. But he didn’t enjoy his life. You don’t know what’s happening to tomorrow, so enjoy today and be thankful for tomorrow. So and I think that’s the way to live your life.

Yeah, well. The theme was the finish the sentence.

I can’t say what I want to say.

It’s too rude to say it.

The is the coolest motherfucker you’ll ever meet.

Wicked.

Peace. And I’m out of here.

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. And one final question. Fantasy dinner party. Yeah. Three people dead are alive. Who would they be?

Three hot women.

Particular was.

Not that I can think of from the top of my head.

No.

No. But on a serious point, if I was going to. Yeah. Genghis Khan. And Alexander the Great.

And. I don’t know. Maybe.

Rameses. Pharaoh. Rameses.

It’s been an absolute pleasure, buddy. Thanks a lot. Thank you. It’s been great and an absolute pleasure.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

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And just a.

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One surgery. Then I opened the patient and I had anatomy in my mind and it was, Oh, so this is that bone. This is the way the root is. Here is where we have the muscles attachments. So when you start to apply the basics on your practice and you are thinking during the surgery, this is really important because in the beginning you are only afraid acting on the defence. But when you study and you apply the basics on your patients, practice on your practice with the patient, then you feel confident and you know what you are doing. So immunology requires a lot of basic studies and then be prepared, be prepared to do courses because you need to finish your dental school and to make it in patients, you need to do clinical practice. It’s not only about doing a one way course, make any plans in the plastic job and you believe you’re ready. No, no, it doesn’t work like that. You need to do courses and you need to do courses in patients. So we need you to practical education.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts Payman, Langroudi and Prav Solanki.

Sergio, welcome to the latest podcast. We’re here today at the Near Community event, which you’ve been presenting at some of the latest innovations with near event and the latest research. But let’s push that to one side for now and tell me about your backstory. So introduce yourself. And actually just to give the listeners some perspective. What volume of implants have you placed over your career?

Oh, okay. Well, I’m Brazilian. Like I said, I’m not really from Rio de Janeiro, and it’s where I graduated in dentistry, where I have my family or my parents. But then about 15 years ago, I moved to Korea, to the south of Brazil, where we have people in the And the reason why I decided to move was because of work. I noticed that the place where I work nowadays, it’s a very nice environment for innovation and developing products. When I finished dentistry, I remember that I did a promise and my promise was to look after the patients. And then when I was started practising, I don’t know, I felt like if I could become a professor or if I could turn to a trainer, or if I could lecture instead of me only helping patients. The promise that I’ve done when I graduated on looking after the patient, I could multiply it in other hands. So I was really motivated and inspired by becoming a professor or trainer and a lecturer and going to the academic world. So that’s why I decided to do the mastering in my Ph.D. And then when I started to train people and they could multiply.

The reason why I was doing dentistry, which was basically to look after the patients. I thought that if I started to develop new solutions, I could even help other professors and other trainers to help more people and then to help more people. And that’s when Amir then came to my life. And, you know, in the beginning I was working for education in Odense, so I was responsible for international education. So all academic work, you know, like doing manuals, literature review, preparing presentations and stuff like that. And but I was really close to the development team, and my dream was to work on the product development. And it took me some years to be confident enough and to work in a group in an environment where we have much more engineering than dentists. But I would say that now I love what I do. I love to create solutions, to create innovation, to create new products, because I believe that like that and helping more and more people. And the reason why I do my work is just because of the patients basically is this.

And so if you were to split up your time and just give us an insight into your world, how much of your time do you spend actually putting implants in patients mouths versus working on product development versus, you know, red tape and paperwork and all the rest of it? Just describe your your job, right?

Well, I graduated and reunited eight and at that time was extremely expensive to do in ontology. Basically, when I graduated, I was a dentist in the in the Brazilian army. And I had to make a decision or I would buy a car or I could buy a surgical motor and and a surgical cassette and do a course on ontology. And then I decided to use public transport and I invested my money. At that time it was really expensive on immunology. So in 1999 I did my first implant and then I started working as immunologists because in Brazil we have this as a field of dentistry, as perio or endo. So implant is something local. Yeah, is this is a special thing in my country. So I turned to an implant allergies just and then I decided to do the master and that was always clinically driven so I never liked to do only in vitro research. I always like to do some research where I could see results, you know, and tangible results. And so from 99 to 2006, I was sharing my private practice with this courses on immunology. And then in 2007 I was doing my PhD in and I came to the UK and I stayed one year at Eastman where. Fortunately, I couldn’t practice because of no license and stuff like that. But then in the UK, in Nisman, I met Dr. Zafar and that’s when I did my first international lecture for his courses. And then I started to see a common There is more war. The world is much bigger than I thought. And then this one year I couldn’t see patients, but at least I could see different.

People pass the knowledge.

Yeah. Personal knowledge meant and met new friends. And then when I come back to Brazil, I keep practising in Brazil nowadays because I share my practice with product development. I only work as a clinician twice a week, Tuesday and Thursday. And as an average, we make like 500 implants per year. Because I don’t do any other work on dentistry, I only do implants or prostheses with implants or sometimes procedures to spawn. But mainly it’s in ontology.

So in those two days you’re placing 500 implants across the year. Yeah, exactly.

They do a lot of large. Yeah, we do a lot of large. So then the numbers tend to go up. And like I said, I don’t do any other things and I don’t do wisdom teeth anymore.

I just throw in metal rods in people’s heads and zirconia. All right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And how many how many zirconia do.

All the ceramic implants are doing? Really well. I see it. I don’t see this as a substitute of titanium steel. I see this as a new option. And another two or maybe another technique or another solution we can offer to the patients. I also don’t see that ZIRCONIA implants are not for a niche of patients like the patients that don’t want metal in the body. I don’t see like that.

Okay.

I believe that ceramic implants are for has three basic indications. Number one, patients nowadays, they are no longer patients. They are health consumers. And so when they Google implants ology, they will look after, you know, grafting procedures, the treatment planning. So they have a lot of information on that. And also they can see what implants and for sure, the patients perceptions on aesthetics, it’s much higher when they see a white implant instead of metal implant.

Even if you never see that implant in the mouth. Right.

That’s true. That’s true. Yeah. It’s about the patient’s perception. So I believe that at the moment they start Googling it and they will see what implants. Well, they will ask for this for us. Also, there is another problem we have nowadays about periodontitis. And in that, well, in the literature, we can see that ceramic implants, they have less biofilm adhesion when compared to Titan and implants. So in cases of poor implant itis patients that has already periodontitis. Maybe that would be an implant that makes the patient’s life easier to keep a good hygiene.

Got you.

So for me, it’s about patients perceptions on aesthetics, less biofilm adhesion. And the third one, it’s about the soft tissue relation as well. Ceramic material has a much better adhesion of the junction epithelium. So from the biological point of view, it’s amazing the results we have from the soft tissue when it comes to zirconia compared to titanium.

And then with respect to comparing zirconia to titanium, is there any sort of studies in terms of longevity or strength or anything like that? What are the differences?

Well, for sure, it’s work with ceramic implants is completely different than to work with metal implants. With titanium implants, it’s like, you know, when we used to do bridges with a metal framework at the moment, we started working with metal free bridges, The way we practice, the way we try, the way we work has to be different. So we need to understand that titanium is different than zirconia, and we need to respect those differences. So for example, when you replacing it as a implant, you need to respect the osteotomy if you want the size too much and if you have talks over 16 centimetres, you can put yourself in trouble. So you need to respect osteotomy. Also when it comes to zirconia, we need to have in our mind that the design of the implant has to be different because the material is different. So we need to trust in the industry that did the correct research and for us. For example, we spend about five years developing this product because we were finding the perfect design for zirconia, which is a different design than when you design an implant made on titanium. So we need to trust in that and understand that different words.

And so how many non titanium implants have you placed in patients.

And lapel on the school? We placed already about 300.

Oh, wow.

We’ve been following following up with other colleagues, about 500 in the last five years. And the doctor told me and my boss and I, we did together about 200 implants and we have follow up for about five years. We’re not only doing this in the end of the day, we only have solution for singles between pre molars. And so that’s why in this five years, we only placed this 200 implants.

There’s still a lot, right? You’re following them up. And have you any patterns in terms of bone loss or longevity or anything like that, these early stages?

Well, in terms of bone loss seems really similar to titanium implants. In terms of soft tissue, it’s amazing. We can see soft tissue growth. I never did a research on animal research or preclinical research on the soft tissue level with cornea implants. I would like to I would love to do we already done in Minipigs, but we are making analysis on the Austin integration. So the Hospital for Medical analysis we’ve done was comparing in the same animals replacing one side zirconia and the other side like a splinted mouse titanium. And then we placed implants. We wait for the regeneration and then we did a hostile mathematical analysis and we proved there is no difference between silicone and titanium on the bone level. So the bone biology is exactly the same, but for soft tissue, I never did this in animal. But from the clinical research we’ve been conducting, it looks to us that all the research we read about it is true. The soft tissue has a very good reaction when compared to titanium.

So if we step right back now, said Joe, tell us about your childhood, where you grew up, what it was like growing up in Brazil and your parents as well. So how did you get into the career? So so go back to your childhood. Tell us about that. Brothers, sisters, siblings. What was all that like?

Yeah, well, Brazil is a huge is a huge country. Brazil is a huge country. And I was born in Rio, but my father is a military, and so I spend most of my childhood in a military base, which is is nice. I could play in the street was everything was safe. And also we I mean, I would say 90%, 80% of my time we lived in Rio, but I lived also in the countryside of Brazil. Once we lived in the area in the central Brazil, closer to Paraguay, it’s closer to a big force we have in Brazil because we have Amazon and then we have this area called Pantanal. And so I lived in this place when I was six years old, seven and I have memories from that time. And when we come back to Rio, I started writing horses since I was seven, right? Yeah, maybe because of the countryside, I don’t know. And so my my childhood was basically going to jump with the horses and then, well, going to the beach, enjoying the beach, the nice weather of Rio and sometimes studying. Sometimes you need to.

Study every now and then. Yeah. Yeah. And so what were you like at school? You were a smart student was to get into dentistry. If you’ve got to be a certain standard there and just tell us about it.

Because of the horses, my dream was to become a vet.

How interesting.

Yeah, because of the horses. I would like to become a vet. And that was jumping and that was good about on the sport. And I said, okay, you know what? We become a veterinary. And then I would work only with horses. And then my father came to me and maybe different than nowadays. My father said, You know what, Sergio? If you want to become a vet because you like horses, that’s not the correct way. You shouldn’t work. On things that you, you know, really appreciate it. This is your hobby. You shouldn’t work for your hobby. He said.

Okay.

You should work in something that can sustain your hobby. And horses are extremely expensive. So you need to do something that could sustain your hobby. And I said, okay, you know what? I like biology. And then I said, Okay, maybe if I become a dentist, I could try to do that. And then I did dentistry.

So it’s not just a random thought. Did someone push you to dentist anyone in the family? No, nothing like that.

Zero. No one in the family was. And then I start from scratch and it was basically because of the horses. And then. But then it took me, Oh, wow, 24 years. Because when I started doing dentistry, I by the way, one of another reason why I decided to dentistry and not to become a physical doctor, a medical doctor, was because of dentistry. It’s like four or five years. And if I become a medical doctor, it’s like five, six, sometimes seven. I said, No, I don’t want to spend my whole time in the university. But then I did dentistry, I did specialisation, I did master, I did a P.S..

And now you’re back in the university. Yeah.

So it’s been my whole life studying. And then I quit. I had to stop with the horses because, yeah, I fell in love in the industry.

When did you quit the horses?

It was 2002. And after 20 years, now I’m back with the horses. Yeah. So after 20 years, I finally managed to do this. Amazing. I’m not rich, you know, But, you know, I’m capable to keep the horse. So it’s. It’s fun and it’s fun to to back. To be back on on on this.

And the you as passionate about that hobby today as you were as a kid.

Yes, that’s true. So basically today I wake up five in the morning to go and see the horses from 6 to 7 and then from seven I take a shower and I go to the clinic. So that’s what I do in the mornings. So every Monday, Wednesday and Friday I go to the horses. Every Tuesday and Thursday I go for running. And then Saturday and Sunday I do both.

And so when you say you go to the horses, what do you do? You ride them in a field, you jump with the jumping. Yeah. Yeah. And is that competitions involved in that. Yes. Do you partake in them.

Well, this year I was, I was the winner of the state championship of Para Now where we’re.

Olivia. Congratulations.

Yes, I’m a state champion right now.

Wow. Wow. And so with the. Because you took a break from the from the horse thing, right? And then you come back. How long was that hiatus? How long was that break?

It was 20 years.

And 20 years later, you come back and win the state championship.

It’s like cycling. Yeah.

You never muscle memory. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Wow. Wow. That’s amazing. And so. Okay, so fast forward, you go into dental school. What is dental school like in Brazil?

Well, in Brazil, I’ve been to the Rio de Janeiro Federal School. So it was a public school. And at that time now this is about five years. At that time it was four years. And basically the two first years we do the basic. So we do anatomy physiology. Exactly. All the basic stuff. And then the last two years, we go to every special field. And then the last year we have what we call is like a general practice. So in the last year you spend one year just seeing patients and doing a little bit of everything. But in Brazil, when you graduated in dentistry, if you want to advertise a special field, you need to do what we call specialisation. Specialisation is a kind of a course between a graduation and the master, and this specialisation is just a clinically driven course. So you don’t need to write a big paper, you just need a monograph fee with a literature review, something similar, but you need to see patients doing two years, so you need to see patients and treat patients. And when I finished dentistry, I did my specialisation on orthodontics and the reason why I did X is because the first department on my school wasn’t that good. And I felt like, okay, you know, I know I do specialisation and approach to doing X and then I go to the to my practice. When I did President X, We are starting to do implants in Brazil. So I said, okay, I’m doing precedent, so I need to understand how to do prosthetics for implants. And when I started doing prosthetic for implants, I said, You know what? I think I need to do surgery of this. And then I did a course for surgery with implants, just replace one or two. And then I said, oh, no, you know, I think I need to do something for grafting now because I went to delivery everything for my patient.

So when you did the implant course, we were like, This is what I want to do. Yeah, this is my thing. You fall in love with implant dentistry at that point.

Yeah, definitely. When I was in the dental school, I was. I mean, I really liked anatomy or anatomy and I really enjoyed surgery. So I was as a GP, I was doing with wisdom teeth, for example, reason tooth on the practice. So I was really comfortable about surgeries and then I decided to do prosthetics because I was missing this learning. And then when I did Info ontology is where I could see, you know, the two things that I was falling in love, like the prosthetics and the surgery. Combine it in one technique. So that’s why I fell in love with ontology. And like I said, nowadays I only do implants.

Amazing. And how did you get involved in the product development near what, like you went from riding horses to saying, I need to pay for my horses, so now I’m going to do some dentistry to pay for my horses and you got, you got this place to, you know, you did the specialisation and then from here you found yourself in a position where you are involved in research and product development for any then with the founder, creator of Near Dental. How did that opportunity even come about?

That’s a nice story because I would say I could say that I was lucky. Basically when I was doing my master, I was doing my research on bioengineering, so I was doing photo elasticity in order to understand the stress fields around the implants with different connections. In order to make the photo elasticity analysis, I need a company to produce special implants to place on the raising to make them that analysis. And well, in Brazil we have some local producers. And then on the school that I was doing, my master at Dr. Tommy, my mentor nowadays in my boss, he’s the founder of Neo. Then he went to the school to do a live surgery and then I had my project, my hands. I was a masters student and I came to him and I said, Hey, could you could you produce those implants for me? And he said, Why? And explain it to him. And he said, Yes, So I support you in your research. And then he did a implant and he send it back to me and I did the research. And before publishing, I felt that that would be correct from my side to show him the results before publishing.

So I showed him the results. And then I would say that. Dr. Toma that’s that’s when I got I would say lucky, because he was like an angel in my in my life. I don’t know. We get along together quite well. We have similar lifestyles, let’s put it his way. And then he said, okay, I like your research. Could you present your research to my students and say, Yeah, yeah, I do this? And then I presented a research and then it was 2004 in a congress in Sao Paulo, and I’m from Rio, and this was a big show in Sao Paulo. We had Professor Brenner work on this show. They were celebrating 40 years. It was a 40 year anniversary of integration in Sao Paulo. It was a Saturday. And then, well, I had already presented the research and he came to me in the booth. We were in the boost for near the end, and he said, Sergio, you know what? I’m open and dental school in Chiba Lapel. And he said, You want to work for me? I said, Yes.

Yes, definitely. Why would you say no? There was that look. Was that like the opportunity of a lifetime?

Right, Exactly. Because he saw my presentation before and he said, You want to work for me? I mean, you’re doing a PhD, correct? So what if you work for me and I need people like you in my school said, Hey, that would be wonderful. It was a Saturday. And then I asked him when you want me to start, and he said, Monday morning, 8:00. And I said, Monday morning I’m in front of your factory. And then I get back to Rio. I was already married and I informed my wife as an A Honey, we are moving to Chiba.

Any kids that. This point or the family as well or. No, no, no, no. Okay, kids.

Okay. Hey, honey. You know Natalia. Well, I have a proposal, and I like this man. I mean, I like the way he’d been conducting the business. And, you know, Monday we are including Sheba. And I said, Come on. Are you crazy? Yeah. Yeah, let’s do it. And she was also another angel in my life. And we went together. And then Monday morning I was knocking on the on the door and actually being open and said, Come on, you serious? Are you really here? And then and to today he makes jokes on that because I think that’s yeah, it was really fast.

Amazing. Amazing. And so what’s what’s home life for you like at the moment outside of dentistry let’s say you’re not riding the horses or what do you do? What do you do at home? What do you do for fun?

Well, creative is a nice city. The quality of life is pretty good. Now I have a kid 13 years old, so I’m enjoying most of my time with the family. And also because of this international work that I do, you know, I travel a lot every year and then I’m coming to here to see my friends in a UK. And well, basically we like to travel.

Yeah.

And we have some friends in Katiba and it’s much more, you know, I dedicate my time to the family because I work so much that I think that in order to compensate my physical absence, I try to, you know, the the few moments I’m encouraged by, you know, I need quality.

Your present.

Yeah, that’s just what I do. I say, So what’s.

Your work life balance like?

Oh, my goodness.

It’s tough. Yeah. Yeah.

I work too much. Yeah. Sometimes they complain. Usually I leave home by 530 in the morning and I.

Go to the office.

About eight nine. But then in the weekends now I manage to stop and the weekends.

So on the weekends do they get 100%? Sergio. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And that’s important, right? Yeah. It’s that you can be there and not be there, right? You’re correct.

I think that most of the dentists, they love what they do and since we, we work with the hands and then it’s not an easy job. It’s a tough job, then it’s free stuff and we want to delivery it. Usually we centralise everything with us and then when you see you there, you know, in a big immersion on the patient and you don’t want to leave the clinic and to not finished.

So yeah, in Brazil, here in the UK there’s a lot of, shall we say, like little fear of patients sort of suing you for doing, making the wrong move, doing the wrong thing, blah, blah, blah. And so dentists are fearful on the whole of if I do this or try this or do that, or if I forget to do this, it’s my career on the line. Right. What’s it like in Brazil? Is it is a more relaxed what’s what’s the relationship there like?

Well, I can see that here and in the US it’s harder. But in Brazil is turning to that. We have in more and more legal problems with the patients and night. I believe that also the relation between the dentists and the patients is turning more, let’s say, physical and less emotional. Okay, So that’s when we have chances of this happen. So right now in Brazil, especially some wolves and Belo is the biggest city of Brazil. We have in some some lower lawyers that they are becoming specialists on health problems.

Screwing dentists over basically.

Yeah, dentists and many doctors. Yeah. So the attorney and specialise it on that. And like I said, you know, in the end of the day I believe that we are human beings. Obviously every, every, every problem, you know, everything in life has limits and bounds. But I don’t believe that most of my colleagues, our colleagues, they want to do something wrong to the patient. I believe that most of the dentists, they are trying to deliver the best. But but again, you know, failure can happen. And if you prove to your patients why you did this and that, and if you are convinced about your treatment planning, sometimes I think that people, even though you explain to them because the human relation is becoming different.

Less emotional.

Less emotional, is growing. And even in Brazil, and I tell you that Brazilian patients, they are really patients. Yeah, because already we run a lot of. International courses to get. And then when they see, you know, a dentist here from the UK coming to Brazil, when we are running courses and having these doctors come in today, I can see that they are really amazed with the with the Brazilian patients. But even though it’s.

Changing, it’s changing, it’s getting it’s get it’s moving in that direction, Right? Yeah. Just on that note of like making mistakes and stuff like that, that one of the things I ask on this podcast is revolves around this concept of black box thinking. So in the airline industry, they have this little black box in the plane and it records everything, right? When stuff kind of kind of goes off track or goes wrong or whatever it documents it. And that’s shared with the whole airline industry to improve overall safety. Right. Right. But in health care, we’re so used to brushing things under the carpet if we make mistakes. Right. But if we shared our mistakes with the world, everyone would benefit, right? Absolutely agree. Can you think back to any moment in your dental career where you had one of those moments where you thought, Fuck. What if I just don’t? And how did you deal with it?

You know, it already happened to me. It already happened to me. And I already had this moment. I remember here two big moments that I had in my mind. And I felt because I could see that I did something wrong. And then I felt really bad. The first the first feeling I had, it was depression. I was guilty. I said, Oh, no, I did something wrong. And for me. What I decided to do. I set out to have an open conversation with a patient. So I had all the data in my hands like models, x rays, and I decided to explain the patient what happened, what I’d done wrong, and what I could do to fix what I had done wrong. Hopefully it was possible to fix what what I did wrong, but I decided to have this clear conversation with the patients. And I believe that nowadays with digital dentistry and the moment we are starting to have more and more digitalisation of the patient’s data, it’s becoming easier to have this communication with the patient from the good things and also from the bad things. And also I believe that this digital dentistry can even protect us because we can show the patients the reason why we decided to that particular treatment treatment and then if it went wrong, we can prove to them that the moment we took the decision, there were reasons behind because we have everything, all the data, you know, it’s easy to achieve. You have it recorded, you have it in a cloud, whatever, in external HD. So nowadays I believe that the communication with the patient, even in difficult situations, can become easier because of digitalisation, of dentistry.

Going back to this problem, the patient, you explained everything to them. What happened?

Well, one of the patients from these two worst cases I had, one of them understood and well, we managed to to fix. So I contact another colleagues. That was quite important because in order to fix what I’ve done, for example, I need to do some orthodontics for the patient. So I contact some friends and they help me. One that I think that the network is quite important If you have friends to support you in a moment like that, it’s really important. And usually we then we work alone. And if you stay in the nutshell, not not a good way of doing it’s good to share and to speak with others and and keep your network on. So this guy helped me and the other one, I had to repeat the treatment and then again I explained it to the patient. I cover all, all the costs and I decided to the second surgery to invite someone with a higher experience than me. So I went to the surgery to redo what what, what I have done with a highly experienced doctor. And I believe that training and education is crucial because when you’re doing training education, you can share, you know, the challenges and the decision points with someone that is highly experienced than you. And that’s how I save myself from from this second situation.

What were the two mistakes?

One of them. I extracted the wrong molar.

Okay.

Instead of removing the first one, I remove the second mole in one of the teeth. The other one was a psychometric surgery. We did the zygote, my implant, but I didn’t have the proper engagement of the psychometric implant on the bone. And it was one of the first that I’ve done. And when I did it, I felt that I had poor mental stability. But then we did this in the hospital, and then one week later, when we did the tumour scanning that the the psychometric implant was actually out of the coma, what’s inside? And so sometimes it touched the bone and you have a feeling of mechanical stability, but actually it is not, wasn’t engaged to the osteotomy that I’ve done. And this was because I didn’t have the experience to open the flap correctly, a bigger flap in order to see what I was doing. And so we had to remove this implant and well, we didn’t we even didn’t do another osteotomy. The osteotomy was there is new.

Implant.

Exactly back in. But then the patient had to go to hospital for a second time and.

Well, thank you for sharing that Sergio, because I think it takes a lot to be able to sort of just admit your own mistakes. Right. And at the same time, for other people to sort of say that somebody in your position, a professor, somebody who’s involved in product development, engineering and all the rest of it, is also somebody who makes mistakes, right? So we can we can all do that and nobody’s infallible, Right? So, yeah, I think that’s you correct.

When when we ride horses, we used to say that you only fell from the horse if you hide the horse. Because if you don’t hide the horse, you never felt from the horse. So I believe for clinical practice is the same. If you don’t do patients, then you’re never going to fail. Because if you work with patients, you will fail. We are human beings and what we’re trying to do nowadays is maybe with, I don’t know, technology and artificial intelligence, with softwares, with techniques. We are trying to reduce the human error, but still we depends on human beings. And if you work with people and if you are doing clinical practice, be sure one day something will happen and you need to be prepared on that.

If you could advise a new graduate who’s interested in getting involved in implant dentistry. What would your advice be to that to that individual in terms of the career path, the courses? What do you say to them?

You know, if someone wants to do an ontology, the first thing I would advise is a study. You need to study a lot. Prepare yourself, prepare yourself, studying the basics. I think that you need to study anatomy. You need to study occlusion. You need to study physiology. And then when you are in dental school, you need to be prepared for that by studying the study, the basic dedicating yourself to the basic. I remember until today, the first surgery that I’ve done in my life, that I felt really secure because the first surgeries I was shaking and then and I was afraid of something can bleed more than normal. I don’t know if I can handle if I turn my if I turn myself to a difficult situation in here. But I don’t believe one surgery. Then I open the patient and I had the anatomy in my mind and it was, Oh, okay. So this is that. This is the way to put this. This is where here is where we have the muscles attachments. So when you start to apply the basics on your practice and you are thinking during the surgery. And this is really important because in the beginning you are only afraid. You are like, let’s say, acting on the defence. But when you study and you apply the basics on your patients, practice on your practice with the patient, then you feel confident and you know what you are doing. So immunology requires a lot of basic studies and then be prepared, be prepared to do courses because you need to finish to finish your dental school and to make it in patients. You need to do clinical practice. It’s not only about doing a one week course. Make any plans in the plastic job and you believe you’re ready? No, no, it doesn’t work like that. You need to do courses and you need to do courses in patients. So we need you to practice practical education.

It’s funny you. You mentioned that at the beginning, when you place in implants, you’re scared, right? You’ve got you’ve got this fear. Yeah. When? When, when I was speaking to him earlier, he mentioned a similar concept, right. That these patients. And you’re scared. Right. But he said when I was doing those first implants, I was playing the role of an actor because you can’t let the patient know that you’re scared, Right? Because then their confidence in you sort of changes. Did you have a similar situation there when you when you first started placing?

You know, when I started placing implants, I was worried about the next drill. Okay, which one is the next drill? So I was much more focussed on on the sequence of drill than actually in the patient.

Okay.

And, and I was sweating like crazy shaking. And again, I think that if I had studied more and then because for me you need to be worried about how can I open the flap, how can I release the flap, how can I suture properly? Like the sequence of truth is just as a consequence. So don’t be worried with the sequence of drill. Be worried about the implant positioning. Be worried about the patient’s health. And then maybe nowadays, you know, I would maybe have the catalogue of the company opening in front of.

Me in the order.

Exactly. You know, I would say, okay, let me look at that and then. All right, that’s the next rule. And I’m focusing on the patient and you should be focussed on the patient and not on the system.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So coming towards the end of this interview, what we what we usually ask is I’ve got a few final questions and one of them is Sergio. It’s your last day on the planet. And you’re surrounded by your loved ones and you need to leave them with three pieces of life advice, three pieces of wisdom. What would you say?

That’s a good one. The the first one. I would say be yourself. Don’t pretend to be what you are not. You know, for me. My big personal journey is to understand myself. And I want to be myself. I don’t want to be someone that I’m not. So be yourself. Number two. I would say. Be humble. Because when you are humble, you you are open to learn. When you believe you know everything. You. You know, you’re living in a war that you’re just closing your eyes. And then when you close your eyes and you start only to think about you and you, you’re not humble enough to learn. You will fail. So I would say be yourself. Be humble. And I believe that you should be honest. You should be honest with people. I believe in energy. And if you if you give bad energy to the universe, the universe, we will give you back.

That same shit back to you.

Yeah, exactly. So be honest, be positive with people, and then the energy you get back is a good energy. Yeah.

And so what would you like this to say then? So Sergio was. Dot, dot, dot.

Oh, I would say. Sergio was a nice guy.

Simple as that.

Simple like that.

Simple as that. Yeah, mostly. Yeah. And imagine you had a fantasy dinner party. Okay. And you could invite any three guests. Dead or alive. Who would they be? I won’t tell you in the and situation.

The first the first person I think I would I would invite her to come would be my grandfather. I have had good memories of my grandfather. We had fun together and he was a nice experience. A nice example for me.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I would say my grandfather. You know. I don’t like to regret the good and needed the bad things I’ve done, the bad things I’ve done because no one is perfect. I try to fix. And so. I tried to be with the person when. When when someone is with me. And I believe that true friendship and true human relation, even though sometimes you cannot provide the proper attention to the person, the patient that the person deserves. If is a true friend of you, he wouldn’t, you know, he will understand.

You understand the situation.

Why you cannot be with with with them. So when you say three people is hard for me because I believe that a. Most of the people that I’ve been living with, I try to to be with them when we were together. So I would say, you know, I don’t feel that I don’t have this feeling, you know, I’m missing. I miss it to do this or miss it to do that. That’s why the only person that came to my mind was my my grandfather.

So that was one of my choices. Yeah. Grandfather. Just because I miss him today. Yeah. Yeah.

And maybe because he. I mean, we lost him when I was too young. And so let’s say I wasn’t mature enough to.

Proper.

Exactly to have a population with him. So that’s that’s why I was thinking about him.

Any celebrities or any one that you’ve sort of sort of thought, I’d like to sit down with that person one day. I wish I’d have had the opportunity to sit down with those.

And speak with someone. Let me say, you.

Know, over dinner.

Yeah. I don’t know. I think I would like to speak with Albert Einstein. Yeah, it seems like an interesting character. Yeah. Maybe. And you know who come to my mind when you said Clint Eastwood? Maybe because of the cowboy movies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s cool. That’s cool. Sergio, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you so much.

This is Dental Leaders, the podcast where you get to go one on one with emerging leaders in dentistry. Your hosts. Payman, Langroudi and Prav. Solanki.

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