[INTRO]: I’m Ralph. I’m Bhavin Patel, and welcome to the podcast. [00:00:05] This is your place to lead. Better live fully and laugh more. It’s your blueprint [00:00:10] to optimal performance.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Hello, [00:00:15] hello, hello, and welcome to another [00:00:20] episode of the Nail It podcast. Your place to.

Dr Bav : Live. Fully lead [00:00:25] better, laugh more.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : You’ve got it in the wrong order. But I forgive [00:00:30] you. I’ll forgive you.

Dr Bav : I said I was going to get a tattoo, don’t I?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : It’s not as if we don’t [00:00:35] record this practically every week. I mean, seriously, it should be your tattoo. Actually, yes. [00:00:40]

Dr Bav : It’s my mantra.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah, yeah. Yeah. [00:00:45] That’s what they’re going to put on your gravestone, isn’t it?

Dr Bav : That’s it. Yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah. Always, always remember you and [00:00:50] we have an amazing guest, Bev.

Dr Bav : We do, we do. You know, I’ve been looking forward to speaking to [00:00:55] Payman. Uh, he’s a busy man. Um, we managed to nail him down and Came [00:01:00] on to the podcast. Um.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So to introduce you to Payman [00:01:05] Langroudi, some of you may already know because you’ve heard him be this incredible host to [00:01:10] the Dental Leaders podcast. And of course, he is the Clinical Director at enlighten as [00:01:15] well. So we are truly honoured. And he’s a little bit nervous to actually be on the receiving [00:01:20] end of a podcast.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah it’s true. It’s much harder on [00:01:25] this end. Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me.

Dr Bav : Hey, Payman. Hey, Payman. You know, I’ve heard your voice and heard you [00:01:30] talking to people, asking them the questions. And we’re honoured to have the opportunity to [00:01:35] now put you on the other side and ask you the questions.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks for having me, guys.

Dr Bav : No worries. [00:01:40]

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Brilliant. So I’m really curious because I’ve had a lot of colleagues and friends who have who have been [00:01:45] on your podcast, and I’ve always been, you know, I’m always curious about when people [00:01:50] start a podcast and then particularly when it’s about Dental Leaders. And I think really you were [00:01:55] quite innovative in this before, because it’s only in more recent years. We’re really starting to hear about [00:02:00] the need for leadership in dentistry. So I’m curious, what prompted you to start [00:02:05] that podcast in the first place?

Payman Langroudi: Um, listen, I’d be lying if [00:02:10] I said that it wasn’t a marketing thing to start with. And we decided [00:02:15] to go down a content based approach to marketing when [00:02:20] social really exploded. Um, really based on the fact that I felt [00:02:25] like we didn’t pay attention to the, you know, Google AdWords and all [00:02:30] of that when that came along, we didn’t go all in on it. Um, so when social came along, we [00:02:35] said, we’re going to go all in on it. And the idea with it was to have a content approach and [00:02:40] not only talk about teeth whitening, not only talk about teeth, talk about people [00:02:45] stuck to the teeth. And, you know, it’s difficult as well because, you know, the team wants to sell a product, [00:02:50] right? So I often get the question, where’s the ROI on this podcast? Right. Um, [00:02:55] and, you know, it started out like that with my good friend Prav Solanki. Um, [00:03:00] then after a while, it today it feels more [00:03:05] like a hobby than anything else. I mean, of course there are benefits to having [00:03:10] a podcast with loads of dentists. Listen to um, from the business perspective, but I don’t look [00:03:15] at it from the business perspective anymore. I look at it as important conversations and [00:03:20] and, you know, we’ve done 320 episodes or something. And, you know, [00:03:25] three of our guests are now passed away. And, you know, to have those conversations on record [00:03:30] for their families. And, you know, we’re all going to pass away one day. Um, [00:03:35] and, you know, I find even though it’s probably the thing that brings back [00:03:40] the least for me in terms of ROI, um, it’s it’s [00:03:45] the thing that I’m most proud of that I do because, you know, it’s real stories. It’s not boxes [00:03:50] of, um, toothpaste or whatever.

Dr Bav : It is awesome. I mean, it’s probably [00:03:55] the biggest podcast in UK dentistry, I’d say.

Payman Langroudi: I’d say. I’d say jazz. Jazz. [00:04:00]

Dr Bav : Uh, you know, I’ve not insisted that the protrusive one, right?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dr Bav : I’ve heard [00:04:05] of that. I’ve heard of that. I’ve never listened to it, but, um. So how how many years have you been doing it? [00:04:10]

Payman Langroudi: Since before Covid. So maybe six years. Something like that. Yeah. [00:04:15]

Dr Bav : Nice. Um, do you know what we forgot? We didn’t ask him the first [00:04:20] question we’re supposed to ask him. Hmm.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : You see, you threw me off track words, [00:04:25] and then we just went everywhere. Oh, but wait, wait, can we come back to it? Because I was like, I was about [00:04:30] to ask you a question because I don’t want you to lose your flow. Payman. And it’s like when you talk about how [00:04:35] this it doesn’t really necessarily get ROI, and yet it is something that for you, you’re [00:04:40] the most proud of what comes to mind. I mean, of course, it’s the Dental Leaders podcast, right? And [00:04:45] of course you’re on the podcast, which is leadership. And for me, that’s the [00:04:50] pinnacle of leadership that that that peak of the triangle, which is true transcendence. [00:04:55] And when everything goes beyond yourself, you’re not just doing it for yourself [00:05:00] and you’re doing it for others, and you’re doing it for other people to grow as well and bring others [00:05:05] with you. Lift other people up with you. Which for me, I truly see that as when [00:05:10] you’ve really made it as a leader, you know that’s what you’re ultimately aiming for. And [00:05:15] and to me, from what you said, that’s what it sounds like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, [00:05:20] I don’t know. I don’t know that, you know, we’re having a conversation, right? When you have a conversation, you have to sort of put [00:05:25] into words what’s going through your head, but what’s going through your head often are feelings. [00:05:30] And for me, I’ve got maybe a bit of, I don’t know, ADHD, whatever you want [00:05:35] to call it, I don’t know. These days everyone’s got something right, but if it’s [00:05:40] something I really like, I’ll stay up all night on it. Um, but if it’s something I don’t really [00:05:45] like, I will procrastinate like hell and be the laziest person in the world [00:05:50] on it. And so, you know, it’s lucky that, you know, when [00:05:55] you own a company, you can you can call the shots, right? You can say, [00:06:00] I want my first meeting is at 10:00 because I don’t like 9:00 or 8:00 [00:06:05] meetings. Um, I’ll have meetings like now at eight at night. No problem. [00:06:10] But eight in the morning, I don’t just as one example. Um, and so I’ve [00:06:15] got an excellent set of partners who understand me. And let me, [00:06:20] let me just do the things that I’m really good at and the things I really like doing [00:06:25] because, you know, that’s I’m that kind of cat. Anyway, I end up, you know, [00:06:30] I’m a bit disorganised. You can buy me a hundred diaries. I still be disorganised, you know, [00:06:35] and leaning into your strengths rather than your weaknesses. For me, it’s been a [00:06:40] massive revelation because there’s loads I’m really bad at.

Dr Bav : But [00:06:45] there’s obviously things you’re really good at. Um, I mean, obviously we can come on to enlighten as well. [00:06:50] But again, I wasn’t going to say this now, but, um, you when you first start [00:06:55] enlighten. You did that I’m guessing. Was that in your 20s?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 28.

Dr Bav : 28, [00:07:00] 28 years ago.

Payman Langroudi: So 20, 28 years old, about 25 years ago. [00:07:05]

Dr Bav : You probably don’t remember this, but you apparently turned up at my father in law’s dental practice, and he [00:07:10] still remembers you to this day. So apparently you cold called in Nottingham when you were first [00:07:15] launching, uh, enlighten. And he fondly remembers you. And he he [00:07:20] he actually still says, um, you know, he he came to my practice and, you know, he you [00:07:25] stuck in his mind. So you left a really good example of my father.

Payman Langroudi: What’s his name? What’s his name? [00:07:30]

Dr Bav : His name was Dhiru.

Payman Langroudi: Patel Ventosa.

Dr Bav : In [00:07:35] Nottingham city centre. But.

Payman Langroudi: Um, one of one of our earliest users.

Dr Bav : It just goes to show [00:07:40] that, you know, you you obviously there was something that you wanted to get out there and you [00:07:45] put in the work that 28 years ago, and at that time, you know, cosmetic dentistry was sort of taking [00:07:50] off in the UK, I guess. But what made you start that? Why why did you want to leave dentistry and [00:07:55] start a company?

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know how these things work out. Yeah. [00:08:00] It wasn’t a decision to leave dentistry. That wasn’t what I wanted to do. Um, [00:08:05] we started out. We were 28 years old. Uh, we were, we were. I started the [00:08:10] company with the guys I used to live with in university, and, uh, my wife, my now [00:08:15] wife, you know, my then girlfriend. So the four of us, the two guys I lived with and [00:08:20] my and my wife and, um, we just wanted to do something a [00:08:25] bit different. And, you know, when you get to that point of you’re going to start a practice, and we [00:08:30] were going to start practices, we’re going to we’re going to do four practices because there’s four of us and [00:08:35] we’re going to be teeth whitening centres that they basically the idea was, you [00:08:40] know, these city boys would come in and have their teeth whitened, have a clean, have their [00:08:45] teeth flossed, and that’s all we do. We don’t do anything else. Um, you know, like super [00:08:50] specialist, I don’t know. Do you know the place? The steak place. There’s [00:08:55] only one thing on the menu. Right. Steak. Right. And the only choice you’ve got is, [00:09:00] you know, medium or rare or. Well done. You can’t even say medium rare. And that’s [00:09:05] that’s the that’s the only choice you’ve got. They do it very well. They’ve got their special sauce. Whatever. And [00:09:10] that was that idea of do one thing very well.

Payman Langroudi: Right. And you [00:09:15] know, you go around so many places and so much stuff is rubbish. You know, it needs [00:09:20] to be improved. And you think, you know, people if they focussed in on just the one [00:09:25] thing, if you if you made, if you had the best pizza in Norwich. Yeah. The best, the best [00:09:30] cheese and tomato pizza in Norwich, you’d have a great business. Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:35] Um, or then. Then you spread it out. You know, you say I want to be the best dentist [00:09:40] in this practice. I want to be the best dentist in this town. The best dentist [00:09:45] in the country. And then, you know, I’ve got Depeche Palmer, who I work with on the, um, composite [00:09:50] course once in a generation talent. I mean, I do come across [00:09:55] them, but once in a generation, literally like that. And sometimes the guy gets depressed [00:10:00] when some kid in Brazil does something better than him, um, because he [00:10:05] wants to be the best in the world. Right? And each of these comes with sacrifice, right? [00:10:10] It all sounds great, but it comes with massive [00:10:15] sacrifice. And, you know, now with enlightened, we’re saying we want to be the best teeth whitening system in the world. [00:10:20] Yeah. And it comes with massive sacrifice. All sorts of sacrifices that you have to [00:10:25] make to do that. Um.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : What sacrifices? Because again, this is another leadership issue, as we [00:10:30] always say. You know, ultimately there are sacrifices so that you can pursue something else. So what [00:10:35] sacrifices?

Payman Langroudi: Well, from the enlightened perspective, like, you know, there’s just product market [00:10:40] fit kind of sacrifices, right? You want to be the best in the world. You can’t be the cheapest in the world, [00:10:45] you know. So so then, you know, you can’t be both of those things. And then you get people [00:10:50] who worry about, you know, price, for instance, just just as a basic example. [00:10:55] But, you know, you have to you have to obsess over details to make things correct. [00:11:00] And you know that that takes extra people and it costs more. And, [00:11:05] you know, we take we take the gel from the factory all the way to the patient in [00:11:10] a maximum of six weeks, a maximum. So, you know, it’s all flown [00:11:15] over in refrigerated planes, refrigerated trucks. It only sits in the patient dentist [00:11:20] practice for one night. Um, because we know the date, you know, we’re going to give the dentist the date that it’s [00:11:25] going to arrive at their practice, and they book the patient in after that. So it hasn’t broken down. It hasn’t [00:11:30] become acidic. All of that takes a lot of work and a lot of hassle, a lot of sacrifice. [00:11:35] We throw away loads of gel because it gets past the. We’ve decided not to keep [00:11:40] it more than one month of absolute maximum.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you know the alternative, the alternative [00:11:45] is that we get results that aren’t as good, you know, [00:11:50] and then sometimes these goals tend to over, you know, go over each other. So we said, oh [00:11:55] we want to be more green. So we reduce the plastic in the kit by [00:12:00] 80%. Um, but then that increased our carbon [00:12:05] footprint, doubled our carbon footprint just by doing that. Um, you know, [00:12:10] you’re in a throw away gel. That’s not very green thing to do. So, so, you know, [00:12:15] these these goals, different goals that you have get in each other’s way. Um, [00:12:20] but at the end of the day, I think supply, the supply business [00:12:25] is difficult. It’s not easy at all. Um, much harder than being a dentist. [00:12:30] Much harder. Um, your patients trust you intrinsically. [00:12:35] Um, you know, by just by sitting in your chair, they trust you. Whereas [00:12:40] us as dentists, we’ve been trained not to trust, you know, that’s that’s that’s our [00:12:45] whole training is. Where’s the evidence? And it’s quite right, isn’t it? You’re not going to believe everything you’re in. [00:12:50] You know, the number of things you’ve seen come and go that promised, you know, the earth. [00:12:55] And in the end, there seems to be about the same thing. It was 25 years ago when I qualified. [00:13:00]

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Well, you know, I pushed the boundaries, right? I was that person who wanted [00:13:05] to be the best. And I became that and became the global pioneer for the use of [00:13:10] of lasers in.

Payman Langroudi: And did you.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : And I had to I had to stand [00:13:15] in front of British society of Perrier. American academy of. European federation of Perrier [00:13:20] talking about lasers when everybody’s sitting there saying, oh, there’s no evidence, there’s no evidence, there’s no evidence. And [00:13:25] there I am doing research and publishing papers and showing, but I’m showing you bone regeneration. [00:13:30] I’m showing you better patient centred outcomes. I’m showing you flapless surgery. So [00:13:35] sometimes it comes from needing to push the boundaries and truly [00:13:40] have a deep, deep belief in what it is you want, what it is you stand for, [00:13:45] and what it is you can care you can provide. Which by the sounds of it was an underlying is [00:13:50] definitely an underlying aspect with enlighten as well, because you have to you have to have [00:13:55] that deeper purpose to keep going, to keep going in your profession. I’m going for nearly 30 years, [00:14:00] and yet I still love doing what I do. And so there is a reason for that. And [00:14:05] it is because I get to be the best I can possibly be.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the other thing [00:14:10] is, you know, it’s a decision that you make. And we were number two in [00:14:15] terms of product for the first five, six years. And it was terrible. [00:14:20] It was horrible being number two, you know, the other the competitor had a better product, better looking [00:14:25] product, more expensive product. Everything about it was better. I don’t know if you remember there was a product. We started [00:14:30] out with light activated whitening. There was a product called Bright Smile. Um, [00:14:35] and this was all sort of 4 or 5 years before the zoom light came along [00:14:40] and Bright Smile was, you know, it was properly funded. They’d raised like $100 million. [00:14:45] They’d gone and got had one of these like, design firms make a beautiful robotic [00:14:50] thing. And at the time we had this sort of vacuum cleaner looking thing, you know, like [00:14:55] a cheap copy. Um, and then when it turned out that we [00:15:00] found out lights do nothing at the time, we thought they did. His bright smile had publications [00:15:05] and 30 publications on why the light was okay. Um, then when we came to switch [00:15:10] and we had to switch, zoom had come along by that time and we decided to go into tray whitening. [00:15:15] And I sat down with my partner, Sanj, who’s one of these guys. He’s just like, he, [00:15:20] he, he’s a perfectionist. Like he doesn’t mind if something goes wrong, but he never [00:15:25] wants it to happen again. And he’ll literally change everything based on one incident. Um, [00:15:30] and he said, look, I don’t care how much it costs. I don’t care what it takes. We have to have the [00:15:35] best tray system. So we worked on that for about two years and, [00:15:40] you know, broke it down into, you know what? What is it? What is trade whitening? At the end of the day, it’s [00:15:45] the gel on the tray. The impression desensitises those four things and incrementally improving [00:15:50] each of those parts. Um, and, you know, those, those incremental [00:15:55] improvements in, in the end, get you better results.

Dr Bav : Again, a real insight [00:16:00] into your personality and, uh.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Ah.

Dr Bav : How you obsess over these things. And it’s [00:16:05] amazing. You got that’s that’s what drives you. Um, well, why don’t we go back to your favourite quote then [00:16:10] maybe that gives a little bit more insight into what you’re about.

Payman Langroudi: Payman I [00:16:15] really like the Oscar Wilde quote, and, you know, I brought them up and it’s [00:16:20] amazing the number of them that are actually in the vernacular now, just like part of the language. And, [00:16:25] you know, I was looking through quotes and the Oscar Wilde ones, almost the whole page [00:16:30] was delicious. Um, but out of the ones, I’ve.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Gotta [00:16:35] narrow it down to the best one. Payman.

Payman Langroudi: Hey, I think that, you know, [00:16:40] for my child to be yourself, everyone else is already taken. Yeah, yeah, because you do [00:16:45] spend a lot of your early years trying to emulate other people until you find [00:16:50] yourself. I guess some people find themselves quite early. Um, but when you realise [00:16:55] that, you know, being yourself is the key. Yeah, it really does. [00:17:00] It’s really empowering. Um, but, you know, knows [00:17:05] the price of everything. The value of nothing. That’s one of his. But we’re all in the gutter. [00:17:10] Some of us are looking at the stars. Yeah. So many beautiful things. Yeah. Man [00:17:15] wants to be the woman’s first love. The woman likes to be the man’s last romance. It’s actually part of [00:17:20] the part of the vernacular. Now.

Dr Bav : The first one you said was. Be yourself. Everyone else is [00:17:25] taken, right? Yeah, yeah. But as you quite rightly say, it takes quite a few number of years. You know, it’s one [00:17:30] of those things that’s in your teens. You want to fit in. You want to be like everybody else in your 20s. You want to [00:17:35] impress everyone else and be, you know, be the person that everyone looks to. It takes usually [00:17:40] most people don’t do that until quite late on. Um, and then it’s like, you know, as you get [00:17:45] older, you realise actually, you know, you don’t. Nothing really matters as [00:17:50] much as you think it does. You go round and round in your head. Um, and there was a saying, um, [00:17:55] I think Sal Bloom’s, uh, book about, um, you are not as important as [00:18:00] you think you are to other people. You know, people don’t think about you as much as you think about yourself. And [00:18:05] until you realise that it takes a lot, it takes, you know, it takes you to get quite old to [00:18:10] actually understand that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s really empowering too, isn’t it? You [00:18:15] don’t have to try. And at the same time I do. I still think you’re always trying [00:18:20] to be someone else, isn’t it? Because, I don’t know, one might get completely drunk or something [00:18:25] and another person comes out? Yeah, yeah. You know, there are inhibitory [00:18:30] mechanisms at play the whole time. Right. I remember.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Going to take him out [00:18:35] for a drink and.

Dr Bav : Always up for that Payman always.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know, [00:18:40] I don’t know about you guys, I bet. Yeah, but I wasn’t right at dental [00:18:45] school.

Dr Bav : Can you not tell with all the books? Look at all our books.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, no, I can tell.

Dr Bav : Look at our backgrounds. [00:18:50]

Payman Langroudi: Look girly, girly, swot. But in dental school, I was the crammer [00:18:55] guy. Yeah. And and, um, we found this stuff that was for, you know, bodybuilders. [00:19:00] It was like some sort of protein powder, but it had something in it that kept you awake all night. So we [00:19:05] stayed awake for 48 hours, went through two exams, and then I wrote, I was on this [00:19:10] oral surgery exam, and it was like something like, what’s the differential diagnosis [00:19:15] of a swelling on the palate or something? And, um, I was writing garbage. [00:19:20] Actual garbage. But I couldn’t stop myself. Yeah. And I really [00:19:25] realised that inhibitory mechanism thing that, you know, there’s all sorts of thoughts. Sometimes you’re driving [00:19:30] your car, you think I’ll just drive over the cliff, but then something stops you. Something stops you from doing [00:19:35] that. You know, there’s inhibitory mechanisms kick in. Um, and, you know, on our podcast, [00:19:40] I did one with Rona on mental health and we asked this question of, you know, why is it [00:19:45] that dentists take their own lives? And in that moment, you know, something [00:19:50] inhibitory doesn’t kick in, I guess. And we’ll talk about why [00:19:55] later. But in the moment of doing it, something doesn’t kick in. [00:20:00] And, you know, a lot of people who are depressed or whatever haven’t had any sleep. And having had no sleep [00:20:05] for 48 hours those two days, I realised I was writing like actual crap. I was saying. Yeah, you [00:20:10] could bite into a pizza and it could burn your, you know, like not even using medical terms. [00:20:15] I knew it was incorrect, but I just couldn’t stop. Well, you know who is the real you? [00:20:20] Who knows?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So some of this goes into kind of self-destruction. I mean, you bavin. [00:20:25] Bavin came back and said, actually, it takes quite a long time and you seem to think it didn’t, but it does. It [00:20:30] takes a lot of maturity and a lot of growth and a lot of self-awareness to [00:20:35] really. Not just believe, but resonate [00:20:40] with that. Be yourself. Because everybody else is taken. There’s a big thing. And, you know, when I [00:20:45] do a lot of work with people in their 40s and their 50s, we realise that so much of it is actually [00:20:50] about identity because you’ve spent so long with a label the label of a [00:20:55] dentist, a business owner, a mother, a father, a parent, uh, [00:21:00] a daughter, a son, a niece, a nephew. And actually, who are you really [00:21:05] at your core? I mean, for me, that’s that’s what it encompasses. Because you have to go back to being [00:21:10] your true self. You have to be prepared to shed all of the layers of everything that you’ve accumulated. [00:21:15] And that’s the only way you actually set yourself free. So it’s not. And we do [00:21:20] see, like when some people get a lot older, right? They don’t tend to care what other people think. And and they [00:21:25] they voice things a little bit more. But I think particularly in a profession and in dentistry and this idea [00:21:30] of needing to behave a certain way, it really does create incredible limits. [00:21:35] It creates anxiety, it creates depression, it removes [00:21:40] you from being truly authentic and and [00:21:45] from actually it puts a cap on your success however you want to define success.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:21:50] Although on the other hand, dentistry does sort of lend itself to sort of being the king [00:21:55] of your own kingdom as well. You know that a dental practice is [00:22:00] it’s it’s I would define it as a very large, small business. You know, it’s [00:22:05] a small business. Um, and you can totally call the shots in [00:22:10] that small business. And in a way, it can be an expression of yourself. [00:22:15] And I do see it. I go to thousands of practice. I must have been to thousands of practices. And, [00:22:20] um, sometimes you’re in some little town and you’ve got this super happy [00:22:25] guy who loves coming to work, loves his team, loves his patients, [00:22:30] and it’s basically finding it, you know, at the end of the day, you know, keep your patients [00:22:35] happy, keep your staff happy. It’s basically all of dentistry, right? [00:22:40] You Do the teeth. Do the teeth. Well. But but keep [00:22:45] those two constituents happy. And you see people pulling it off and being the kings [00:22:50] of their little kingdom and actually being themselves. And it’s so interesting, [00:22:55] you know, from the outside, you might imagine dentists and dental practices are all the same, [00:23:00] but boy, are they not. I mean, totally different, totally different things [00:23:05] I see in practices.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : And yet we have massive burnout rates. We [00:23:10] have a huge, huge rates of burnout, depression, suicide. You [00:23:15] touched on mental health issues. So there are a lot of people out there who are.

Payman Langroudi: Really [00:23:20] thought, have you thought about this? I’ve looked into it about why dentists take their own lives, [00:23:25] because, you know, me and Rona interviewed loads of people, read a load of stuff, [00:23:30] and turns out dentists have been taking their own lives for 100 years. It’s not the [00:23:35] GDC, you know, it’s, um. One thing I thought [00:23:40] about is I’ve got a cousin, he’s a eye surgeon, and he was telling [00:23:45] me he has a day of operations LA or a day of GA. The [00:23:50] LA days are twice as stressful because you’ve got a patient there, right? Sticking [00:23:55] an injection in his eye. Now similar to our situation. Nervous live patient [00:24:00] all day, every day is a, you know, a level of stress or an amount [00:24:05] your bucket is going to get filled and then layer on that. Um, [00:24:10] let’s say your relationship with your nurse isn’t as it as good as it could [00:24:15] be. Now you’ve got someone in the room with you all day, and now that’s extra [00:24:20] stress in the bucket layer on that. Much of our work fails. [00:24:25] You know, people come back with, you know, so your self-worth goes [00:24:30] down a little bit. Um, but, you know, we don’t have the answer. We don’t have [00:24:35] the actual answer. We didn’t have it. Did you guys have a look at that or think about that.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Well, [00:24:40] I know like my own experience of of contemplating it but [00:24:45] the but the inhibitory bit definitely in but there have there have been moments because it’s almost [00:24:50] just.

Payman Langroudi: Like a dark days.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Dark days. There are days when I feel like I don’t even want [00:24:55] to be on this earth. It feels too painful. And there have been times of, you know, complete [00:25:00] decision fatigue where you just shut down. And you’re right. It’s not just the GDC, [00:25:05] but it’s just it’s suddenly an inability to just cope. And these thoughts [00:25:10] that it would, wouldn’t it just be easier to just not be here? The [00:25:15] inhibition for me was like, yeah, okay, hang on, you’ve got kids. Don’t be so stupid. And then [00:25:20] and then you kick, you kick back in again. And there has to be a way. But there are some people who [00:25:25] don’t have that level of resilience, and usually they do. For the first thing they [00:25:30] do is once they make a plan, you usually see they are much calmer and you’ve got [00:25:35] to watch out for your friends if they’ve been really depressed because the minute they seem to perk up, that’s actually [00:25:40] the danger point, because usually at that point they’ve made a plan, and once they’ve made a plan, they feel [00:25:45] better and then they execute the plan.

Dr Bav : Wow. [00:25:50] We’ve gone down a path.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah, it’s and it’s tough. You know, I’m sure [00:25:55] we’ve all lost people, um, through, you know, in the profession. And it’s very it’s [00:26:00] incredibly sad. And it’s not the dentistry like you say. It’s not. It’s [00:26:05] not our care for our patients, but it becomes a massive accumulation. [00:26:10] And that’s where Payman I think we do get back to labels, you know, because we get back to the the huge burden [00:26:15] and responsibility of owning a practice, needing to make the numbers stack up, um, having [00:26:20] piles and piles and piles of more responsibility laid on you, be it through regulation or [00:26:25] taxation, remuneration and all these things where every [00:26:30] time you feel like you’re taking two steps forward, one step forward and two steps [00:26:35] back. And I know so many practice owners who feel that and they love the dentistry, they [00:26:40] just feel out of control.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but, you know, dentistry [00:26:45] business is is I mean, the word easy is, is sort of misleading, but it’s [00:26:50] an easier business to thrive in than, uh, pizza [00:26:55] shop.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Oh, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, the pizza shop guy’s got taxation, he’s got remuneration. [00:27:00] He’s got all the issues that the dentist has got. Yeah. And yet the pizza shop guy isn’t [00:27:05] killing himself and the dentist is. And then you go the other way and say, oh, it’s really intricate, [00:27:10] high stress work. The brain surgeon isn’t taking his life as much [00:27:15] as the dentist is.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : But the brain surgeon isn’t running the business. The brain surgeon is getting on with brain [00:27:20] surgery. The problem is the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: Every single business.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Owner, like the pizza [00:27:25] guy, is.

Payman Langroudi: Making the pizza.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Or employing the staff.

Payman Langroudi: Or the accountant. The accountant is running. [00:27:30] The accountants running the business, the lawyers running the business. These guys aren’t taking their own lives as much as [00:27:35] dentists.

Dr Bav : I think it’s something to do with the energy as well though, right? Because you take on so much of an emotional [00:27:40] drain when patients come in to step into your room.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dr Bav : Sometimes you’re not being [00:27:45] you. Right? You’re an actor or an actress, right? And you have got to put on this happy face, [00:27:50] uh, even though inside you may not be happy.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, you’re absolutely right.

Dr Bav : And that [00:27:55] that has got to take its toll day after day, patient after patient.

Payman Langroudi: So that [00:28:00] that thing you’re talking about of sort of being on stage, if you like. And, you know, in [00:28:05] my life I’ve done things like be a dental rep. Mhm. Yeah. When we started the company [00:28:10] we didn’t have any anyone. The internet didn’t really exist. So someone would call up from [00:28:15] wherever. Yeah. Ipswich. I’d have to get in my car work out. There was no Google.

Dr Bav : Like you said. [00:28:20] Yeah. You turned up at my father in law’s, didn’t you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. I’d have to get up and get in my car and go there. [00:28:25] And believe you me, that’s a much harder life than being a dentist. Yeah, being a dental rep. But [00:28:30] on this question of how long are you on show? You’re on [00:28:35] show for about an hour or two a day?

Dr Bav : This is.

Payman Langroudi: It. If you’re, you know, if, I guess [00:28:40] maybe I wasn’t a very good Dental some of them maybe three hours a day at the very [00:28:45] most. Now it’s bloody hard. You gotta wake up at 5 a.m., drive, find your way there, [00:28:50] sell to the guy, come back. All those things. But you’re not on show all that time. Yeah. Being [00:28:55] being on show does take it out of you, no doubt.

Dr Bav : Yeah. But. But also, you’re inflicting pain on people. [00:29:00] You know, they’re anxious. They’re not them, you know. And [00:29:05] you know, there’s no nice way of doing what we do sometimes. But, you know, I try to make it into [00:29:10] as humorous as I can be. And, uh, you know, try to make it a nice, a pleasant experience for my patients. [00:29:15] But at the end of the day, you know, we’re working in a very sensitive area and we’re putting them [00:29:20] in very vulnerable positions.

Payman Langroudi: And by the way, by the way, loads of dentists love it. [00:29:25] Yeah, loads.

Dr Bav : I love it. You know, I love I love the profession and you know, and that’s one [00:29:30] of the reasons why we’re doing this is that, you know, we do love the profession. We want it to be great again. And we [00:29:35] want, you know, we want people to find the joy in what they do.

Payman Langroudi: Make them great [00:29:40] again.

Dr Bav : Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Get the hat. We’ve already got the hats ordered, haven’t we? Right now.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Well, make it greater, [00:29:45] right? I mean, I went into dentistry with this idea. I wanted to be a dentist who people [00:29:50] weren’t scared of. That was kind of my my challenge at the time when I went, when I went into dentistry [00:29:55] and we had literally 39 of us at the London in our year group, it was [00:30:00] tiny, and only six of us had actually chosen to do dentistry first, [00:30:05] first and foremost, the rest were still in the days of failed medics.

Payman Langroudi: Really.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : They [00:30:10] all changed their minds after med surg and doing ward rounds. They were like, actually, I’m really glad we’re [00:30:15] doing dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: Um, you’ve both got kids, haven’t you?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:30:20] have you, would you tell your kids to become dentists?

Dr Bav : I would, I [00:30:25] would. My wife wouldn’t, I would.

Payman Langroudi: Is she is.

Dr Bav : She is, she is. Yeah [00:30:30] yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah. My my my ex husband is a dentist. But we we would not, and [00:30:35] neither of us would be particularly keen on that.

Dr Bav : I definitely would. I think it’s a great profession.

Payman Langroudi: Well, after everything [00:30:40] that’s given you, like being a world leader, written, written books or whatever, like.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:30:45] you still wouldn’t give that opportunity to your kid.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : It’s not about giving the opportunity. They also [00:30:50] see how hard you talked about sacrifices, right? You talked about sacrifices. And [00:30:55] it’s not it’s not a job that that it’s not. I mean, no job is necessarily [00:31:00] easy, but it’s not one of those jobs that it takes really hard work to get [00:31:05] the rewards that you truly want. And so I have made a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of if [00:31:10] if I don’t know, let’s just throw a number out here. Let’s say in your specialist [00:31:15] practice, you were pulling out £300,000 a year for the sake of the argument. Yeah. Right. In [00:31:20] any job earning you £300,000 a year, the destroy you. If [00:31:25] you if you were a lawyer. If you were a banker, if you were a if by the way, if you said I want to do it in [00:31:30] another field, like marketing or something, you’d have to be head of marketing at Procter and Gamble or something. [00:31:35] Not some dentist in Brighton. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, [00:31:40] you know, you know what I mean? The what you’re saying there, the return for the work. The work, [00:31:45] the amount in.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : No. So I’m not just talking about the money. I’m just saying the the the life, the [00:31:50] life that you want. You you have to work really hard. And for me, I’ve made a huge [00:31:55] amount of sacrifice. And, you know, I sacrificed myself to the point where [00:32:00] I became chronically ill. So that was my for me, that was my turnaround. That was my my inspiration [00:32:05] for then developing nail it to to be able to optimise your energy so that you can [00:32:10] really thrive with what you want to do. But my kids have seen that, they’ve witnessed that and they’re going to put labels [00:32:15] on that of, you know, they’ve seen me jet setting off around the world and not being necessarily being around [00:32:20] for them when they were younger because I was invited here, there and everywhere [00:32:25] to, to to speak. Um, and they want me around. So I [00:32:30] think they’ve just, they’ve, they’re inspired by a very hard working mother. But at the same [00:32:35] time, I just think they they feel they want an easier life.

Dr Bav : Yeah. And I [00:32:40] recognise that early on. So I sold my practice three, four years ago. So I had a practice in Wimpole [00:32:45] Street right. Mhm. About eight years. Seven, eight years. Um yeah. Sold that three years [00:32:50] ago. Purely because my children are six and eight and I want to be present. I want to drop [00:32:55] them to school. I want to pick them up. I don’t want to be stressing about the practice on weekends. So I made that choice. [00:33:00] And exactly as you say, Payman Dental has given me that opportunity to be able to make that choice. [00:33:05] Right. There’s not many jobs that you could say. Do you know what? I don’t want to work on Mondays. I don’t want to work on Fridays. [00:33:10] You know, I want to work, as you quite rightly say, I don’t. I’m not a morning person. I’d love to start [00:33:15] at ten, you know. But we can do that. That’s the beauty of our job and our profession. And that’s the reason [00:33:20] why I’d always sort of stick up for it and go, you know what? It’s a great profession to be in, but it’s finding that work life [00:33:25] harmony. I know, uh, I mean, uh, I’ve spoken about this quite a lot. It’s just [00:33:30] finding that I don’t want to say the word balance, but you know what I mean? It’s the it’s the finding that [00:33:35] sweet spot, let’s say.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, my my son just started aerospace [00:33:40] engineering his first year, and, um, we found out it’s all [00:33:45] defence. Like, my maybe 5% of it is, you know, formula one cars [00:33:50] and things. 95% of it is defence missiles, landing systems, you know, like planes, [00:33:55] like helmets that shoot things and and. Okay, all well [00:34:00] and good. You need aerospace engineers in the world. And then we looked at the salaries, [00:34:05] you know, the starting salaries and how quickly does it go up. And it basically doesn’t. It’s like it’s [00:34:10] awful. Like it takes ten years to get to 60 grand salary [00:34:15] or something. So he said, all right, I’m obviously not going to do that. So what am I going [00:34:20] to do? So now he’s saying, oh man, I might do a Start-Up. I might, uh, go [00:34:25] into finance, you know, and it’s all a bit in the air. And my daughter, um, she’s [00:34:30] a bit easier to manipulate. And so she’s she’s more like, [00:34:35] uh, path of least resistance. And, you know, her mum’s. My wife’s a dentist. Works one [00:34:40] and a half days, uh, a week. And she’s now said, you know, maybe I [00:34:45] want to be a dentist. And, you know, I’m happy for her. Especially as a girl. Especially [00:34:50] as a girl who can stop, start, do two days, 2 to 5 days. I [00:34:55] mean, do you think that that question of wanting it all was [00:35:00] the problem? You know, like. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not to be the perfect wife. [00:35:05] Mother. International lecturer. Yes.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. The. [00:35:10] It’s the bit you touched on of perfectionism, which actually is very high. A high rates of that in dentistry. [00:35:15] Right. I had to be I had to be the best. I couldn’t be mediocre. Good enough was [00:35:20] not good enough. Everything had to be, like as good as it could possibly be. So I had to [00:35:25] be the best practice owner. Uh, the best friend, the best mother, the best lecturer, the [00:35:30] best researcher. And eventually, you know, you have to. Something has to give, right? Uh, [00:35:35] so absolutely, it’s a partly a personality thing. And.

Dr Bav : That’s one of the things that we obviously sort [00:35:40] of teach and sort of do the, um, assessments on is you’ve got to discover yourself [00:35:45] and know what your drivers are before you can help other people. Right. So you’ve got to know yourself. [00:35:50] And it goes back to your quote. It’s gone full circle is that, you know, to understand yourself. It takes time. [00:35:55] And, you know, like I say, everyone else is taken. So I’m quite mindful of the time. Um, [00:36:00] so shall we move on to your favourite pillar then of the knowledge system? Payman because [00:36:05] I’m sure arena has already got you tagged.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Write it down. Hold on.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, I like them, [00:36:10] I like them. The one I like the most is intuition. And not [00:36:15] because I’ve got this brilliant like that.

Dr Bav : Did you, did you.

Payman Langroudi: Did you write it down?

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Integrity. [00:36:20]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Well no no I did. I looked at integrity first. Yeah. Because I like [00:36:25] integrity and I like your definition of integrity quite a lot. But in in the end, I picked intuition [00:36:30] because. And not because I’ve got a brilliant instinct. Actually, [00:36:35] quite the opposite, insomuch as I spent the first half of my life almost ignoring [00:36:40] my intuition, thinking, oh no, that’s all you know. Uh, bollocks. [00:36:45] Yeah. Are we allowed to swim? That’s that’s that. That’s all, you know, not [00:36:50] scientific. Yeah. And I almost used to go against my intuition [00:36:55] just to prove to myself that I’m like, this logical scientist. And then the second [00:37:00] half, I suddenly realised all these successful people say things like, oh, it just felt [00:37:05] wrong. And I could feel it in my in my tummy, in my stomach, you know. And I suddenly realised, oh [00:37:10] my goodness, you know, I’ve been making this mistake all these years. And now I do trust [00:37:15] my instincts a lot more. And the other thing is I really like, sort of look up to people [00:37:20] who trust their instincts because, you know, because they had it all along. And, you know, my my business [00:37:25] partner is funny. And he’ll make a decision. He can’t tell you why he doesn’t like that person [00:37:30] or that idea, but he’s so sure about it. And it used to drive me [00:37:35] crazy. But now I’ve kind of changed. And because, you know, it’s again, like a bit like that be yourself [00:37:40] thing. Once you learn something and then you change direction as [00:37:45] an adult, it really does feel really good, you know? So yeah, that’s [00:37:50] the one I like the most.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : I love that. So that’s the North Star Navigator. So it’s four [00:37:55] components. So one is about silence because we really do need to quieten ourselves enough. So [00:38:00] no distractions. We get exposed to hundreds of millions of bits of information [00:38:05] per second. So you really do need to silence it. That’s why actually people’s intuition generally does [00:38:10] tap in the most when they’re in the shower or when they’re driving, because and they’re scientific [00:38:15] fact to that. And they’ve done studies around that to show that if you’re mildly distracted with [00:38:20] an activity but silenced, then that’s when your intuition comes in. And the other bit [00:38:25] is what you touched on, which is really about trust, really needing to to trust that this [00:38:30] is truly an intuition and trust yourself. We’re back, as Batman said, to being able to be yourself. [00:38:35] So trust what’s right for you. The A from the star stands for attachment, so you need [00:38:40] to have that connection. So you need to have that connection to yourself to believe in yourself. [00:38:45] And then of course recognition recognising very much if it’s a fear, [00:38:50] if it’s a logical belief overriding it and you’re in the procrastination bit suggests [00:38:55] sometimes you get in your head, or if it truly is an intuition. So we usually encourage, [00:39:00] like if you’re starting out on intuition, just start off with a little intuition journal and just start off [00:39:05] sort of taking the actions about things you think are intuitions, and write down for yourself [00:39:10] to reflect what’s working and what isn’t until you then learn to recognise. So that’s like a [00:39:15] little tip. But yeah, I love intuition. It’s and it’s such a powerful, powerful element [00:39:20] of leadership that’s being recognised more and more nowadays. And you can train it. Don’t just have to be female [00:39:25] to have good intuition.

Payman Langroudi: I like that that you can train. It feels like that.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : It feels [00:39:30] very much so. Um. Payman. We have loved having you on. [00:39:35] Definitely. Um, yeah. There’s no no holds barred with you, that’s for sure.

Dr Bav : That [00:39:40] was a bit of a roller coaster, wasn’t it? Good.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:39:45]

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So it’s lovely. Lovely to see you on the other side. So.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : How was [00:39:50] it for you?

Payman Langroudi: It was okay. Once I got going, you go.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Alright. Once you got going. Oh thank you.

Payman Langroudi: Catastrophize [00:39:55] things didn’t you.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Yes, exactly, exactly. Got [00:40:00] to get rid of those limiting beliefs.

Dr Bav : I need to do a part two Payman. We’ll do a part two, mate.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, anytime you [00:40:05] like.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Absolutely. Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure to have you.

Payman Langroudi: Lovely to [00:40:10] meet you guys.

Dr Bav : Thank you. Thank you. Payman.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : So, Bev.

Dr Bav : Yeah.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : What do you reckon? [00:40:15]

Dr Bav : Payman. Um, do you know what? He’s such a true born leader. And [00:40:20] he he’s he’s. You can tell he’s a perfectionist. And that’s why enlightened have done so well, I think, [00:40:25] and his podcast has done so well. But I don’t know if you realised halfway [00:40:30] through you do realise he’s such a good podcaster that he actually turned into a podcaster and he was [00:40:35] interviewing us. You do realise that for half of that? So I think, I think that was his defence, is [00:40:40] that his defence was his attack. So he just naturally went back to his podcasting [00:40:45] mode, which is great. We don’t mind, we don’t mind. We’ll be on the other side. Um, yeah. Yeah, [00:40:50] yeah. Exactly, exactly. And you know what? I think he’s the sort of person you could talk to for hours.

Dr Rana Al-Falaki : Absolutely, [00:40:55] absolutely. So thank you. Thank you for listening. [00:41:00] And we look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the podcast. Bye [00:41:05] bye for now.

Dr Bav : Thanks for listening, guys. See you later.

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