Founder and host of the award-winning Sex Talks Emma Louise Boynton joins Payman and Rhona for a frank exploration of sex education and communication. 

The conversation touches on cultural taboos around sex, gender relations and inequalities, to provide an open and nuanced exploration of the complex intersections between sex, intimacy, shame, relationships and well-being.

Enjoy!

 

In This Episode

00:04:00 – Journalism and career

00:14:50 – Sex therapy and education

00:30:35 – Cultural taboos and shame

00:39:00 – Dating

00:41:55 – Grieving and adolescence

00:44:05 – Gender and equality

00:52:55 – Faking it

00:54:40 – Changing attitudes

00:56:35 – Sex addiction, body image and social media

01:03:55 – Dating apps and true love

01:06:00 – Mental health

01:08:20 – Male sexuality and shame

01:12:20 – Future vision

 

About Emma Louise Boynton

Emma Louise Boynton is a broadcaster, writer, and founder and host of the award-winning Sex Talks series, which aims to break down the barriers surrounding open and honest discussions of sex.

Rhona/Emma: The key to sustaining a good, mutually pleasurable sex life is flex [00:00:05] and change. And in order to have those two things, you need to have communication. [00:00:10] If we don’t feel able to talk about sex, you’re not going to be able to evolve and change and experiment when [00:00:15] it comes to having conversations with your partner, if you want to kind of shake up your sex life, you want to do something different, but [00:00:20] you feel like, oh, how do you do that? How do you approach that conversation if maybe you haven’t talked about sex before? [00:00:25] A really great way of doing that is, ah, I actually listen to this podcast the other day. Oh, I actually had a friend [00:00:30] tell me about this. I actually went to an event and they were talking about how x, Y, and Z [00:00:35] can be a great thing to explore, to spice things up or whatever. So you kind of have this third party [00:00:40] influence. And so with that, we’re saying, actually what a great way then if you go on a date to something [00:00:45] like sex talks, that can be your kind of the conversation starter for you and your partner to then be [00:00:50] like to go up to them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: And it’s not competition saying, I don’t [00:00:55] like what you’re doing here, I hate this or I like this. They’ll be like, oh, I thought that was a really interesting point that that person [00:01:00] made. What did you think? Because then you’re also acknowledging maybe that person has sexual shame, worry, anxiety, whatever. [00:01:05] So I really like I try to encourage more people to go on dates asexuals because I think hot date also [00:01:10] bright green flag if that’s if you know, if someone’s saying to you, let’s go. And because it shows [00:01:15] that they’re open to have conversations about sex and intimacy.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:25] is mind movers. Moving [00:01:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:01:35] Your hosts. Rhona Eskander and Payman [00:01:40] Langroudi.

Rhona/Emma: Welcome to another episode [00:01:45] of Mind Movers, where we explore the intricate relationship between our professional lives and mental health. [00:01:50] In this episode, we’re joined by Emma Louise Boynton, a visionary writer, broadcaster [00:01:55] and the dynamic force behind the acclaimed sex talks platform. [00:02:00] Emma’s journey from producing at major news outlets, from to founding initiatives that champion [00:02:05] open dialogue on taboo topics, offers a unique perspective on the intersection of communication, [00:02:10] intimacy and mental wellbeing. Today, guys, we are talking about sex. [00:02:15] So welcome. Thank you. It’s really weird having your introduction [00:02:20] read to you because I do lots of presenting and hosting and I’m usually the one in control reading [00:02:25] the intro. So having my intro read back to me, I’m like, oh my God, who is this person you’re talking about? [00:02:30] I know sometimes, like that’s when I, when people give me my bio, I’m like, stop.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Do you prefer asking [00:02:35] the questions or answering them? I bet you prefer answering.

Rhona/Emma: I like both, like the thing [00:02:40] is, podcasting has made it really. I was talking before on a podcast that one of my dream [00:02:45] jobs was to be actually a presenter, and he was like, oh my God, like, I never knew that. And I was like, yeah, I always [00:02:50] would have loved to be a TV presenter. And I think that podcasting offers use that opportunity. [00:02:55] Although my friend Ingrid, who’s amazing, she works for universal and she goes to all of like, [00:03:00] she’s really high up. She’s like, why would you ever want to be a presenter? I’m like, why not? She’s like, the presenter [00:03:05] is like the person that’s holding the tray, like delivering the champagne. [00:03:10] You’re not the champagne, you’re the tray. You do realise that? And I was like, I don’t mind being the tray, you know, because I think [00:03:15] it gives you like an opportunity and I, I really enjoy it. But obviously, as you know, because she’s got [00:03:20] her own podcast, podcasts give us an opportunity to learn and really listen. And I think listening [00:03:25] is such an underrated skill. And I think that we have the opportunity. When I first started podcasting with [00:03:30] Payman, because he’s been doing it a long time, he told me that I wasn’t listening enough and I think I’ve taken that on board. [00:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: Not really. Shut up.

Rhona/Emma: Work in progress, [00:03:40] are we not? Okay, fine. Well, whatever. We can listen back to this. Okay? So I [00:03:45] always love understanding the person that’s like, in my, um, chair. [00:03:50] We’re going to go like, delve into sort of your past, what you’re doing now, etc.. [00:03:55] Um, but in a nutshell, tell us a little bit about your upbringing, your background, how you ended up doing sex talks. [00:04:00] Wow. How long do you have my background? Um, well, I [00:04:05] come from a family of journalists, which kind of is the first kind of key to putting all [00:04:10] the pieces together. Um, so both my parents are journalists. My mum is a kind of lifestyle [00:04:15] travel, health, wellbeing writer, and my dad has always focussed on politics [00:04:20] in travel. Um, although he is not a travel journalist, as he said many times over, not really sure [00:04:25] why. He does a lot in travel, but nonetheless that’s how he defines himself. Um, so always grew up [00:04:30] in a very kind of literary home where bad grammar [00:04:35] is not an option. So my parents, I like autocorrect my grammar as I speak because I can [00:04:40] hear my dad being like, no, sorry, correct that. Um, and I slammed the thesaurus down. So [00:04:45] I think that has very much informed my love of reading and writing and words, [00:04:50] um, stories help us see the world. I love that Joan Didion quote, um, [00:04:55] the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves are like the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves [00:05:00] shape the way we see the world, and hence how we behave in it. That’s very much a reinterpretation [00:05:05] of what she said. But it’s kind of like that. Um, and I think it’s true when I grew up with. Yeah, lots of books, [00:05:10] stories around. My sister’s an actress, so I think that’s just another way of telling stories. [00:05:15] And she’s very good at that. So props to her. So yeah. So I grew up with [00:05:20] stories being, I think, the currency without really realising it. And I never wanted to be a journalist growing [00:05:25] up. I never really wanted to necessarily follow my parents foot path, and I and I haven’t [00:05:30] really. And I think if, you know, I talk about sex, which is not what my dad thought I would do, but [00:05:35] I remember when I was, I think it was when I just finished university, I was [00:05:40] doing my masters, actually.

Rhona/Emma: So I did a I studied politics at university and I went to university in Manchester. [00:05:45] And when. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, your lovely sister [00:05:50] and then went and did my masters at Birkbeck. So I did night school and studied psychoanalysis [00:05:55] like psychosocial studies and worked at a think tank alongside that. So I thought I’d go into politics and do kind of policy [00:06:00] making stuff. And then I listened to. I’ve always loved listening to radio. [00:06:05] I think, again, just loving stories, loving conversations, love interviews, love kind of deep, [00:06:10] long form interviews. And was listening to an episode of Woman’s Hour once and I’ll never forget it. It was Jenni Murray [00:06:15] interviewing Damilola Taylor’s mother, and I think she became Baroness Taylor and [00:06:20] Beverley Knight, the singer, and she was interviewing her about the death of her son. [00:06:25] And then, you know, she’s telling a really the harrowing story and all the kind of advocacy work she’d done [00:06:30] since. And then Beverley Knight sang an acoustic version of a song she’d written about Damilola called Fallen [00:06:35] Fallen Soldier, and it was such a powerful piece of audio and [00:06:40] the song finished. And there was just silence. And silence, I think is one of the most powerful things [00:06:45] in audio, in radio. And you just heard Jenni Murray, who was one of the [00:06:50] most kind of stoical broadcasters in, you know. Well, she’s no longer doing Woman’s Hour, but such [00:06:55] stoical broadcaster. And you just heard her go. Hmm’hmm from one mother to another. [00:07:00]

[VOICE]: I’m so sorry.

Rhona/Emma: And in that moment, I just burst into tears. I was just sobbing. [00:07:05] And I in that moment, I was like, God, there is so much power [00:07:10] in brilliant storytelling and particularly in audio. And [00:07:15] I think it was kind of at the time in which podcasts were like coming onto the scene. And I just thought [00:07:20] at that moment I was like, I have to do this. I want to do a job that allows me [00:07:25] to help other people feel deeply, to help other people feel [00:07:30] deeply and primarily to make people feel less alone in whatever they’re going through. And [00:07:35] so that was like a real, like, notable turning point. And so whilst I was doing my [00:07:40] masters, I then also applied for, um, work placement at the BBC and went to radio [00:07:45] four, and that kind of put me on the track to working in media. Did you enjoy working at radio four? [00:07:50] I loved it, it was a bit like going to the Promised Land and being like, [00:07:55] yeah, I have arrived. Like radio four was played every day in my house. Growing up, I loved Woman’s Hour, [00:08:00] so being there and like meeting all the presenters I had on the radio was so that was me being like, [00:08:05] totally starstruck. I mean, I think probably the equivalent of an actress going to Hollywood and being like, wow, that [00:08:10] was me. Um, I think I realised there that all [00:08:15] the things they say about BBC, it is fabulous. The journalism are amazing, it is slow as hell, it is so bureaucratic [00:08:20] and it is slow. And I remember I was broadcast assistant and I was also I’d done some, I was [00:08:25] doing some shadowing work and then some running at Sky news at the at the same time and Sky news by [00:08:30] comparison, they work fast. If you’re smart, if you’re clever, and if you just work, they will just give you opportunities. [00:08:35] Jobs. Okay, cool. You’re suddenly you’re in all these rooms. And I was so I was working at both these places and I’d always [00:08:40] engaged with BBC and that was what I consumed. And I never didn’t watch Sky that much. [00:08:45] But the difference in these two companies was really notable.

Rhona/Emma: And I remember someone saying to me, my manager at BBC [00:08:50] was like, if you work as a broadcast assistant where you’re like printing scripts and, you know, doing the basic [00:08:55] stuff for two years, you might end up like Duncan, a researcher, and I looked [00:09:00] over and I was like, wait, two years before I’d have any sort of like, any more responsibility. That [00:09:05] just seemed crazy to me, because at the same time I was working as a runner then then being, you know, Sky, they were [00:09:10] like, oh, hey, do you think you can make a podcast? I was like, yeah, sure. And then suddenly they were like, cool, can you set up our new podcast? [00:09:15] And I like, literally like learnt how to make podcasts. So I think I was so I’ve always hungry, [00:09:20] ambitious and I think ended up actually working at Sky news and switching over. [00:09:25] And I hadn’t really planned on doing news, but I wanted to be in a fast paced environment. I wanted to have lots of opportunities. [00:09:30] I wanted to be able to grow. I wanted to be able to move around. So I ended up going more to Sky. But [00:09:35] love and will forever love the BBC. And I think the you know what they produce, what they create is just [00:09:40] phenomenal. And my dream, at some point I want to present a [00:09:45] radio four series on sex. I love that you know what? Whilst I was listening, [00:09:50] I was watching the other day, um, with my partner, we were watching the new film [00:09:55] with Billie Piper. Scoop, have you seen it? I use have you seen it? No. My [00:10:00] first job on Newsnight was with Sam McAllister. Really? Yes. It was. It’s the story about [00:10:05] the journalist as you were talking. You know, I have to say, I don’t think I recognise [00:10:10] the power of journalism and the media and journalists in particular, [00:10:15] that fight for justice. So basically the film is [00:10:20] about the true story about the journalist that did the Prince Andrew interview. So I don’t [00:10:25] see you like, I don’t know if you know it.

Payman Langroudi: I know Esmé Wren. Huh.

Rhona/Emma: Ah. Who was the editor [00:10:30] of Newsnight during that time? Yeah, amazing. But you know, what really struck me is that, first of all, that it was three [00:10:35] females, you know, that were like, really like collaborating together to get this story. And it was so hard [00:10:40] to get that story, but they knew it was so hard. But they show you like the nuances [00:10:45] of the BBC, like wanting to be at the forefront, but the nuance of them not wanting to [00:10:50] be offend and be too controversial. So it was really interesting for me to watch that journey throughout journalism. [00:10:55] But what I realised, and what I hear through you, is that journalists are people that really [00:11:00] see the power of storytelling and the power of the difference that can make when you reach [00:11:05] all those outlets and how they can change the narrative. And I think that that’s like a really important [00:11:10] part of what they do. And like how sex talks, you know, like as well. [00:11:15] But talk to us because obviously, like sex is this hugely taboo subject. How did you decide [00:11:20] you wanted to do something that was related to sex? Well, it’s funny actually. Recently [00:11:25] I did an interview about six months ago for like, talk radio or something. I can’t remember, [00:11:30] but I was interviewed by Tom Newton Dunn, who I’d used to book on Sky news as [00:11:35] one of our contributors, and when I was an interview producer at the time. And so I would [00:11:40] kind of see him in other news capacity and he and he’s like, Emma, didn’t you used to do news [00:11:45] and now you do sex? And I was like, yes, Tom. Yes. He he kind of blush more than I did. [00:11:50] Um, so the transition I worked in news and current affairs for [00:11:55] I think cumulatively about five years I. Which is kind of wild. Um, did you like it? [00:12:00] I did, I didn’t want to stay in 24 hour news. I actually kind of. I think [00:12:05] I like depth and analysis, and I don’t have a fast news metabolism in that [00:12:10] I don’t love consuming endless amounts of news. I find I [00:12:15] much rather go deeper. And I want analysis.

Rhona/Emma: I want to really understand something and I don’t want to know everything. [00:12:20] I actually don’t think there’s as much value in that. I think that in a social media orientated age, we’re just bombarded [00:12:25] with so much information and for me, debt and misinformation and misinformation. But to me, depth over breadth I think [00:12:30] is really key. And so I knew I always wanted to go deeper into it and always have [00:12:35] always really been interested in mainly, mainly on kind of gender equality stories. So I ended up going [00:12:40] to New York and working for Tina Brown, who’s like, you know, the icon OG journalist [00:12:45] who just who set up who like, uh, revolutionised Vanity Fair, set up the [00:12:50] Daily Beast, then set up women in the world. So I worked on her live journalism event called women in the world and [00:12:55] working on that really, I guess it combined a lot of the things I really cared about. It was [00:13:00] brilliant journalism, combined with a focus on gender equality issues combined with live, and I always [00:13:05] loved live element of TV, but I love a live audience. I’ve always volunteered in [00:13:10] the background at live events, so I used to work at film festivals, at literary festivals. I just love live [00:13:15] events. I love the fact that it can all go wrong. I love the fact that, like, you have to [00:13:20] have, there’s a kind of a deadline because I’m a procrastinator, but there’s a deadline at a live event like your audience is there, so [00:13:25] you make it happen. And so it was working in New York and working under the tutelage of Tina. That [00:13:30] really began to get my brain whirring of thinking, okay, because I knew I wanted to create my own thing at [00:13:35] some point. The kind of delusion of being in your mid 20s, I but nonetheless, anyway, came back to London and [00:13:40] started doing my own companies. And yes, it’s plural because they didn’t work. So it’s a [00:13:45] very like noble endeavour called the Venn, which is a uh, like newsletter focussed on US [00:13:50] politics. Then set up her hustle, which is a creative production agency, which got me back into doing live events. I used to host [00:13:55] lots of events focussed on women’s careers, demystifying women’s career trajectories.

Rhona/Emma: So that [00:14:00] kind of got me presenting interviewing in a live event perspective. We [00:14:05] raised some money. Then the pandemic happened, kind of went to shit. But it was in the pandemic. [00:14:10] Uh, yeah, entirely because I think we just done our biggest event. We’d raised Pre-seed funding. [00:14:15] Me and my business partner, we did our biggest, best live event, got paid a chunk of money [00:14:20] for it, had, you know, had Mahalia play. I hosted a panel that was incredible. Like it was [00:14:25] it felt like there was momentum. And I knew that we were on to something great. And then the pandemic [00:14:30] hit, and I think for me and said my like skill set and my joy comes in live events. I mean, live events were screwed [00:14:35] for years. I just we did a lot of stuff online. We, you know, we did a podcast. We just we did a [00:14:40] lot in that period. But I think it just didn’t take off in the way that I’d envisaged, because live events is what I want to do. But nonetheless, [00:14:45] in that period in lockdown, I started doing sex therapy personally, and [00:14:50] that was because I’d gone to a dinner party with some kind of semi strangers. Actually, you [00:14:55] know, we were like dipping in and out of lockdown. Yeah. And it was one of the, like dipping out bits. And I’d gone to this dinner party and I, [00:15:00] I never really spoke about sex, which sounds wild to say now because obviously it’s all I do. [00:15:05] But I’d never spoken about sex, and that was because I had quite a bad relationship to sex. I didn’t really enjoy sex. [00:15:10] I hadn’t been able to orgasm in partnered sex for like seven years, since I broke up with my, like, one [00:15:15] long term ex-boyfriend love. And I just didn’t really think that [00:15:20] much about it. I didn’t put it in that high priority. I was just like, I’m just not a sexual person. And [00:15:25] it kind of it’s quite a big like point of shame. Like, I couldn’t really understand how all my friends seem to be able [00:15:30] to just be so anxiety free around sex and just be able to be like, yeah, this guy.

Rhona/Emma: We started hooking [00:15:35] up and in my head, I’d always be thinking how like, how are you not beset by [00:15:40] anxiety when you go to have sex with someone? How do you not feel like so much shame and embarrassment and awkwardness? [00:15:45] Anyway, so I was at this dinner party and I was explaining this for whatever reason. We got on to the topic of sex and [00:15:50] I was telling these semi strangers, I guess, because of it felt like anonymous, because I didn’t know them that well, [00:15:55] and they just like looked at me in horror. And as it had transpired, both of them, [00:16:00] these two girls I was sitting next to, had both gone to see a sex therapist, the same sex therapist separately, [00:16:05] and she had transformed their sex, like their relationship to sex. And they had since become [00:16:10] evangelicals for the cause of sex therapy. Little did I know, I, too, would become the [00:16:15] most passionate proselytiser for why people should do sex therapy. So [00:16:20] like, they gave me her number and I was like, okay, fine. I like a business incentive. And the [00:16:25] wonderful Sharmadean Reid who runs the Stacked World, I was working with her at the time, um, on her editorial, [00:16:30] the editorial arm of the Stack Media Company, and I told her I was doing sex therapy, and she was like, you should do this [00:16:35] as a column called conversations with My Sex Therapist. Brilliant idea. She has an [00:16:40] idea a minute. She’s so smart and creative. So she commissioned me to write the series [00:16:45] and thank God that she did, because, I don’t know, I would have gone through with it. If it not been for writing [00:16:50] the column. I would have lost interest or been like, whatever. Did sex therapy found it [00:16:55] transformative, primarily. Because I went in and said [00:17:00] to my sex therapist, I’m broken and he won’t be able to fix me. I don’t work how everyone else works, I just [00:17:05] I’m not a sexual person. I don’t like it. There’s something wrong with me. And she’s [00:17:10] her first consoling piece of advice was you’re really not alone in this. Everyone thinks [00:17:15] that they individually are broken in their relationship to sex, and actually that’s symptomatic of our [00:17:20] broader broken sex culture.

Rhona/Emma: She didn’t say exactly those words, but I’ve since kind of, you know. Yeah. Love it. Yeah, [00:17:25] it sounds a lot sexier. It sounds exactly. But, um, she’s incredible. Alex. She’s she’s [00:17:30] now based in LA, actually. But what I didn’t really realise, I think, is my relationship to my body was so [00:17:35] wrapped up in my relationship to sex. So I’d grown up with an eating disorder. I’d been anorexic when I was like 12 to [00:17:40] 15, been bulimic. I mean, every way you can punish your body. I’d done it over exercise, [00:17:45] under eating, taking laxatives, and the bulimia was something that I’d kind of. When I talked about [00:17:50] having an eating disorder, I always talked about it very much in the past, having never really done any therapy or anything to deal with the like, [00:17:55] deal with it. I just kind of like got physically better so I didn’t look ill, but [00:18:00] it was my coping mechanism for anxiety. So I was still I mean, the bulimia [00:18:05] got quite bad in the pandemic, as anyone with a mental health issue I’m sure can relate [00:18:10] to. It really did kind of shine a magnifying glass on those issues. And I during the pandemic [00:18:15] it got quite bad. But I just like again, it was kind of like disassociative. I just thought like, this [00:18:20] is just not a part of me that I’m going to deal with. This just happens in the background. But I’m just I can’t deal with it. And [00:18:25] doing sex therapy. My sex therapist said something to me early on. That was the thing that probably has [00:18:30] made the biggest impact on my relationship with my body. And she said, for as long as you’re at war with your body, you’re going to find [00:18:35] it really hard to enjoy sexual pleasure and enjoy sex. And what she enabled [00:18:40] me to see is that I was so intent upon punishing my body and [00:18:45] living constantly at war, scrutinising my body in the mirror the whole time, and my and my two fat hairs this bit [00:18:50] getting fatter, um, constantly. If I was home alone, which was not very often because [00:18:55] I was always out and about and busy and busy, that would be a chance to make food [00:19:00] and then be sick.

Rhona/Emma: Couldn’t even have a bath because I found baths really confronting because I hated seeing my body in water. [00:19:05] And I also like, just didn’t want to sit still in my body because my body was something I was always trying to escape. [00:19:10] And if I was in it, I was punishing it overexercising whatever. And over the course of doing sex [00:19:15] therapy, she really helped me kind of reintegrate with my body. And she was like, you have to seduce [00:19:20] yourself. You need to learn to seduce yourself. And yes, masturbation was a part of that, but it was also just learning to [00:19:25] like, light a candle, run a bath and like, enjoy my own company and be [00:19:30] a bit more still. Again, like make peace with my body. And that helped me [00:19:35] bring back my orgasm, which was great. But it ended a 17 year [00:19:40] battle with bulimia. I couldn’t be sick after that because I just like I just realised [00:19:45] I had I she helped me learn to take care of myself in private. [00:19:50] And the sexual component part that was a really important, like masturbation is all about [00:19:55] like, you know, giving yourself pleasure in like the privacy of your own home. But it was more than that. [00:20:00] It was about just feeling sensual and sexual alone and being able to just [00:20:05] care for myself in a way that wasn’t punitive, as it always had been. And I think it [00:20:10] was doing that, that I then realised I was like, this is it precipitated such a [00:20:15] fundamental shift for me and made me realise that our relationship with sex is never just about fucking, it’s [00:20:20] about how we relate to our body, ourselves, how we see ourselves in the world, our level [00:20:25] of confidence. I think if you are, you know, brittle and self [00:20:30] like in this kind of battle with self, in the privacy of your home that is extending [00:20:35] into the rest of your life, you are not showing up fully. If you feel broken alone, you feel broken in public, and [00:20:40] maybe you have a front that allows you. And to all intents and purposes, I would have seemed confident. Great. But I think [00:20:45] that feeling of brokenness really like, you know, slipped into other aspects of my life. [00:20:50]

Rhona/Emma: And so doing sex therapy completely. Yeah. Changed everything. And [00:20:55] I was like, right, we got to do something about this because it wasn’t that like it wasn’t brain science. [00:21:00] Like it was just learning to talk about sex again, being getting confident, talking about sex. I was like, why are we not having more of these [00:21:05] conversations openly, publicly? And yes, sex is everywhere. It’s in marketing. [00:21:10] It’s on, you know, it’s on TV, it’s Love Island. But where is the nuance? Where is the vulnerability? [00:21:15] Where are the conversations of people saying, hey, I actually like, feel a bit awkward about sex? You know, I actually kind of hate my body. [00:21:20] And the more I started talking about it to friends, the more I realised that actually always amazing sex lives [00:21:25] I thought I was surrounded by lots of other people, were also feeling broken in their relationship to sex, and a lot of [00:21:30] the guys as well as the girls. It wasn’t just women like me. And so I thought, right, I’ve [00:21:35] got to do something that helps to bring the sort of conversations I had in the sex therapy room into [00:21:40] public arena, and that was sex talks. So, gosh, so much like swirling through my mind. [00:21:45] Like, first of all, well done for like going through those battles. I also had an eating disorder when I was at university, [00:21:50] still had like a poor kind of relationship with like body image. In fact, the other [00:21:55] day someone asked me, I did the whole like answer question. Thing on Instagram. They’re like, can you talk about your exercise and diet [00:22:00] regime? Your body looks great. And I literally just turned around and was like, I think this is the most unhealthy thing that [00:22:05] people can answer to give the exercise and diet regime, because everybody’s body is completely different. And I think [00:22:10] it’s like a really unhealthy way to compare yourself to people online. And I’ve gone through people saying I was too [00:22:15] big to too small to boot. Do you know what I mean? And like the cycle, you can’t win. I’m like like in a phase of like, acceptance, [00:22:20] which is a good thing, especially now that I’m like thinking more about motherhood now.

Rhona/Emma: I grew [00:22:25] up with a lot of shame and a lot of taboo because of my culture. So a Middle-Eastern, [00:22:30] I’m Christian, my grandma was super religious, like super, so there was a lot [00:22:35] of Christian guilt around all of that stuff. It was like no sex before marriage, [00:22:40] none of this, etc. etc. etc. and I used to even like shame Tanya [00:22:45] for like being more kind of like in touch with herself, I would say as well, like the majority [00:22:50] of dentists that are going to be listening also come from a very like strict like [00:22:55] Islamic background where like, yeah, a lot of.

Payman Langroudi: People.

Rhona/Emma: Know a lot of them. There’s a lot of Islamic [00:23:00] dentists, you know, that would basically also say I’ve had conversations with [00:23:05] them, you know, like that there is like a massive taboo around the subject. Now [00:23:10] do you think like, oh, that’s why I think like this is very interesting for me. Do you not [00:23:15] think like there’s such it’s such a challenge because people that have grown [00:23:20] up in certain cultures, like forget like the patriarchy, forget Western culture, but like there [00:23:25] is like a real challenge when it comes to sex and different cultures.

Payman Langroudi: It isn’t that that’s [00:23:30] the best thing about it. And that’s that’s probably why I don’t think.

Rhona/Emma: I don’t think you can overcome it, especially when it comes [00:23:35] to religion. I think you can overcome it. I think anyone, because I think it’s all, you know, we’re all kind of personal journey. [00:23:40] I mean, just reflect back. My mum is Christian, very Christian. I grew up going to church and [00:23:45] my mum, it’s been interesting. I mean, bless my parents, they are so [00:23:50] incredible. They read my writing. They like they’re very like proud of sex talks [00:23:55] up to a point. But I was just staying at home for, um, a couple months actually, as I was [00:24:00] finding new place. And it was really interesting because my mum was really proud of me. And there’s nothing [00:24:05] I don’t tell her actually much. Their children, they’re like, actually, please tell us less. And I’m like, but let me tell you the [00:24:10] latest date and hook-up gone wrong. And my dad’s like, oh my gosh, you’re literally gonna kill me. But it was interesting being [00:24:15] at home because my mum can’t, like, she projected a lot of her own shame around what I do [00:24:20] onto me. And it was interesting, those dynamics, she would say, like, for example, I’m single, [00:24:25] I’m dating, and she would just say things like, I mean, you have to remember [00:24:30] because you’re on a platform called Sex Talks, everyone is going to think you’re very promiscuous, which let’s [00:24:35] first of all unpack that. Promiscuous is a really gendered word. It is so directed at women. And [00:24:40] this notion of women being kind of women being promiscuous and slutty, it like, feeds into that. I have to just interject [00:24:45] that, because if you Google it, we have this debate, my friend and I, with her partner. He [00:24:50] said promiscuous could only be related. Something about like promiscuous [00:24:55] means basically like it’s for for men. It’s not bad for women, it’s bad essentially. [00:25:00] And then I googled it and it said basically Unselective approach. [00:25:05] That is what it says. When you say, what does promiscuous mean? It says demonstrating an unselective [00:25:10] approach, which I thought was really interesting and selective in the sense that you don’t [00:25:15] care. You don’t care. Yeah. But I think the, the colloquial usage of it has been very directed towards [00:25:20] women and not towards men.

Rhona/Emma: So it’s like it’s true. So I think we’ve culturally it’s like and it feeds into this Madonna [00:25:25] versus whore dichotomy which was popularised by Freud, which is this idea that women can either [00:25:30] be one of two things. You’re either the Madonna and you’re kind of pure and virgin and you’re married material. You’re the [00:25:35] wife or you’re a whore and you’re great in bed. You men want to have sex with you, but you cannot be the [00:25:40] one. You’re not wife or girlfriend. Exactly. And in this word, promiscuous, I thought was interesting that she was using [00:25:45] this and and the way I would then, you know, we’d have conversations about kind [00:25:50] of I’d be like, you know, what do you mean by that? And it was just quite clear, like, she feels shame [00:25:55] on my behalf for the fact that I don’t feel shame around sex. I don’t feel shame around talking about it [00:26:00] publicly now. And I just found it. It was quite an interesting kind of brush up with [00:26:05] actually, like the ideas of sex that I also grew up with. Um, I didn’t have a very, like, strict [00:26:10] religious household, but I mean, my conversation with my mum and when I was young was she said, don’t have sex until you’re 18. [00:26:15] And I believed that you shouldn’t have sex until you’re married as well. I was like, no sex before marriage, no drinking, no [00:26:20] drugs. I was yeah, I said, God would punish me. I didn’t masturbate because of that. I thought God was watching. [00:26:25] And I remember the first time I was like 12, I was in the bath and I, like, swam with the shower head, [00:26:30] as I’m sure lots of young people do. And I was like, oh, this feels so good. And afterwards I [00:26:35] was racked in religious guilt. I was like, God saw, he hates me. He will smite me. Like, this is [00:26:40] not going to happen again. And never and didn’t masturbate until I was in my 20s because I was like, wow, this must this [00:26:45] cannot happen again. And so I hear that entirely. And I think but going back to your question, like I [00:26:50] do think religious guilt and shame, I mean, there are so many different, [00:26:55] I guess, cultural ideas.

Rhona/Emma: The years and ideals around sex, and we’re all [00:27:00] grappling with a kind of cacophony of ideas [00:27:05] and kind of cultural pressures around sex that obviously can affect us in individual [00:27:10] kind of different ways. I mean, not least because then the backdrop of that is [00:27:15] a, um, what I see as like a broken sex culture and that we don’t learn at school [00:27:20] properly about sex. Sex education is really poor, really reductive. Sex education [00:27:25] only became mandatory. There was new legislation in 2017, but became like rolled [00:27:30] out in 2019. That is only like what, like five years ago, it actually became [00:27:35] compulsory for schools to teach relationships and sex education, which to me is just [00:27:40] so wild, like we all are. Like, the only reason we’re here is because someone [00:27:45] had sex. Like, it’s just like, that’s it. And it’s just nonetheless, it’s just become [00:27:50] so weighed down in so much fear and shame and all these sorts of things. And I think it’s [00:27:55] this idea that if we talk about sex, everyone’s going to suddenly become promiscuous and everyone’s going to be fucking in slutty, whatever. [00:28:00] And that’s not the case at all. We all need to learn the language of sex in order to be able to [00:28:05] explore what sex means to us, to explore our boundaries, to be able to assert consent, like consent, is [00:28:10] meaningless if you don’t know what you’re comfortable with. Personally. Um, I think I’m slightly deviating. [00:28:15]

Payman Langroudi: I’m not saying being promiscuous is a problem.

Rhona/Emma: No. Oh my gosh, I think I think the [00:28:20] word itself is, uh, actually deeply problematic just because of its colloquial [00:28:25] usage. I think everyone needs to work out what their personal [00:28:30] relationship is with sex and go for it, explore it, delve into it. [00:28:35] But I think what the kind of when we have the the political conversations [00:28:40] that the political moralising that we see kind of happen periodically around sex and sex education, [00:28:45] like Miriam Coates, the conservative MP, just I think it was like two weeks ago was saying, I don’t want my [00:28:50] children learning about sex at all. And her fear is that if they learn about sex, [00:28:55] they’re suddenly going to start. They’re going to be sex obsessed.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s so interesting because [00:29:00] I’m.

Rhona/Emma: Like, I’m like mesmerised.

Payman Langroudi: The look firstly, women being [00:29:05] interested in sex culturally are sex and the city maybe [00:29:10] was the first time like in the in pop culture. Yeah that that came up and [00:29:15] I used to listen to a podcast guys I fucked. It was like, oh yeah, it [00:29:20] was amazing. Yeah, it was a women talking to each other about the guys they fuck.

Rhona/Emma: And also Danny [00:29:25] is obviously taken off massively. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But but this question of, [00:29:30] you know, sex education, my kids go to French school and one of [00:29:35] the French mums, they’re much more open about this French. She’s, she’s, she said to me, have you had the chat [00:29:40] with your daughter yet. And she was like at the time she was 11 or something. And I thought 11. [00:29:45] Yeah. And then she said something. It really struck and she said, look, either you can have [00:29:50] that chat or my daughter can have that chat with your daughter, or the 12 year old boy can have that chat [00:29:55] with your daughter. So maybe she’ll have that chat with your daughter. And yet the taboo [00:30:00] ness of it still got me.

Rhona/Emma: So the original question was about [00:30:05] the culture thing. Do you see what I mean? Do you not think there was like, listen, my dad’s a gynaecologist. We had them on podcast a [00:30:10] couple of weeks ago. It was amazing. And he took me and Tania to a pub, a pub when we were 12, [00:30:15] and he got the diagram of the like, the vagina and all this stuff. And he talked to us, talked [00:30:20] to us about it. But being from Middle Eastern background. Yeah, from the anatomy perspective and then being from [00:30:25] a middle eastern and it was really detailed. Yeah. But from the, from the Middle Eastern perspective. Sorry, dad. Love you. [00:30:30] But he was also like, you must try and save yourself for a man [00:30:35] till you get married. Men like it when you save yourself. That was that narrative, right? [00:30:40] And that’s fine. We were 12, right? Like he obviously was like trying to protect us. But that was my whole question. Like there [00:30:45] is such a like cultural disconnect. You know, as I said to you and I [00:30:50] still I’ve spoken to like people from certain cultures and they’re still judgement. There are [00:30:55] still women judging other women for being more like, you know. So do you not think there is such [00:31:00] a huge I don’t think it’s something that will ever. And actually now even women [00:31:05] will say not even women. People will say on the internet, how dare you label something as it being [00:31:10] empowered? So again, with my dad’s podcast, I said I’ve never had a one night stand, [00:31:15] which I haven’t. And we were talking about it and my dad said that he doesn’t agree with one night stands, even though he’s had them, because he [00:31:20] personally didn’t enjoy them as a man. He just didn’t enjoy them because he said that he liked it. In a loving [00:31:25] relationship, that’s when he enjoys the sexual component. However, I [00:31:30] said as like some women may view it as empowerment. And then I got trolled and hated on [00:31:35] being like how you’re discussing. How dare you say that? It’s an empowered thing. But this is what I’m trying to say is like, I actually [00:31:40] think the the majority of opinions are so vast, so vast.

Rhona/Emma: And I [00:31:45] my question to you originally was like, do you think that culturally, you know, these [00:31:50] things can be tackled, especially where people around the world, women around the world are being killed for like [00:31:55] sleeping with people? Do you know what I mean? I do, I think. I mean, if [00:32:00] we take the world, I probably probably slightly to bigger. Yeah, fine, I think I [00:32:05] think think big. Yeah. I think obviously yes. Because [00:32:10] our views and attitudes around sex have changed [00:32:15] dramatically. I mean, even the fact that, yes, sex education isn’t great, like [00:32:20] it’s still now we have to have it taught in schools. There’s now compulsory. So in the UK you look at how [00:32:25] there’s constant evolution of ideas and progress is not linear and progress. We’re not on this [00:32:30] kind of progressive trajectory towards one kind of final destination. But I do think if you just look in the past [00:32:35] kind of 50, 60, 70 years, how women’s roles generally in society have progressed [00:32:40] dramatically. I mean, we weren’t allowed to have bank accounts, you know, go to university, etc., etc. [00:32:45] you know, you know, what we are we are now, let’s say like 100 years ago. So if you [00:32:50] look at how quickly things are progressing when it comes to gender relations more broadly, [00:32:55] I think that is indicative of how fast ideas aided much by [00:33:00] technology now and social media how fast things are progressing. I think, therefore, [00:33:05] that there is I think ideas will continue to and kind of develop [00:33:10] around sex as they do around everything. I think that the shame [00:33:15] around sex and the way in which misogyny [00:33:20] and patriarchy get re entrenched continually through sexual [00:33:25] norms. We spoke before about this kind of Madonna whore complex use of promiscuity [00:33:30] as being inherently negative, those things which are asymmetrically directed at women [00:33:35] and used to kind of shame, embarrassment. I don’t think that stuff goes away tomorrow, [00:33:40] and I don’t think having conversations openly about sex is suddenly going to address that at all. But I [00:33:45] think that what I see the work of sex talks, for example, you know, I [00:33:50] hope there will be a global iteration of sex talks. And I am launching in different countries.

Rhona/Emma: I’m here for [00:33:55] it. It will be. But I think for me personally, what I think is really important in the work that I do and the [00:34:00] work that I see the sex talks is doing is. Really. I [00:34:05] realised how fundamental your relationship to sex is, [00:34:10] because exploring my own relationship to sex for [00:34:15] the first time, and now being on what will feel like a lifetime journey, I’m sure exploring it in different ways [00:34:20] proved so transformative and important for me in learning [00:34:25] to exist in my body and myself. And I just [00:34:30] it makes me so sad to think of lots of other people not having that so. And whatever [00:34:35] you end up, whatever path you then choose after that, whether you choose someone you don’t. If one [00:34:40] night stands aren’t for you, don’t have one. Exactly. If they are, you know, for some people they are [00:34:45] going to be they’re fine with a one night stand. I think everyone’s relationship to their body is going to be different. [00:34:50] Cultural mores are 100% will affect that, and we can’t just shake them off overnight. But [00:34:55] I think to not have the opportunity to explore one, the [00:35:00] breadth and depth of your body’s pleasure, like your capacity for pleasure, like we get this one [00:35:05] body like, let’s make the most of it. Let’s explore what it can do for us and what it can give us. I think that’s [00:35:10] an amazing thing, and getting comfortable with exploring our body and not feeling those points of shame. I think [00:35:15] for me it feels like such a shame for people not to have that, you know, in their lives. [00:35:20] And so I think with sex talks, what I really I would never say I’m prescribing one [00:35:25] ideal version of a relationship to sex. Like, this is what you should think about sex. This [00:35:30] is how you should approach sex at all. It’s more let’s actually have a conversation that helps. Try [00:35:35] and remove some of the shame so that the decisions you’re making about your relationship to sex, your relationship to your body, [00:35:40] are based off the fact that you have you have you feel able to explore. You feel able to explore those [00:35:45] questions, explore that relationship to self without being kind of clouded and [00:35:50] kind of burdened by by shame.

Rhona/Emma: Question for you, though, is this what about the female that says, I want to only [00:35:55] have sex with one person? Great, if that’s what you want, and you think that they [00:36:00] can explore elements of themselves with one partner person. Personally, I [00:36:05] wouldn’t be able to do that because I think I’ve learned so much about sex partners from [00:36:10] different people. And but that’s a personal relationship. And I’ve I’ve not had one [00:36:15] sexual partner my whole life, so I don’t know. But if that’s how if someone [00:36:20] is happy. Yeah. I think it comes down to like what makes you feel comfortable. Are [00:36:25] you able to explore different facets of your sexuality and self with someone with [00:36:30] the same person? Great. Amazing. That’s fantastic for you. And I think again, I just think it is such [00:36:35] a individual experience. But I think the key thing is just feeling. I guess [00:36:40] it really comes back to the shame thing, removing as best you can, or like tackling where that that shame is coming [00:36:45] from. And Kate Moyle, I reference her all the time. I just think her work is brilliant. She’s a sex therapist. I’ve interviewed quite [00:36:50] a lot for sex talks and she says she’s banned the word should from her therapy room because so many people come [00:36:55] in. Should so many people come into her room saying, you know, I really should be having sex with one person [00:37:00] only, I should be having sex with my partner every single night. I should, should, should, should, should. And [00:37:05] she says, what that reflects is this sexual script, this, this idea of what sex should look like, that [00:37:10] we get kind of we piece together as you said with gave example of your of your daughter. Like we get all these different [00:37:15] ideas of sex without having a strong firm foundation of sex education. We don’t have a strong, [00:37:20] compelling counter-narrative with which to analyse all these piecemeal bits of information that we’re getting [00:37:25] throughout our lives. And then let’s be real, pornography is so widely available online, and most [00:37:30] kids have access to pornography. More than half of children at the age of 13 have seen some online pornography. So [00:37:35] that’s an effect on how people see sex.

Rhona/Emma: We’re getting all this peaceful information without that firm, [00:37:40] you know, understanding, grasp of good sex education that helps you be a bit more decisive [00:37:45] about what is good versus what is bad information. So then we come show up. If you do sex therapy, being like, [00:37:50] you have all these ideas of all these shoulds that have come from all these different, um, kind of cultural influences, [00:37:55] and they’re affecting how you relate to sex personally, therefore, how you see your body, how [00:38:00] you relate to your partner and you don’t necessarily really know where these ideas have come from. And a lot of the time those [00:38:05] ideas are what are causing what’s causing shame, because you have this idea of the should of what sex should look like and [00:38:10] you’re not having sex like that. So then that feeling of like disconnect is what is causing all the shame. So [00:38:15] Kate Moyle says, let’s no more shoulds. There is no one right way to have sex. There is one, no, [00:38:20] not one right way to view yourself as a sexual being. So it’s really about unlearning [00:38:25] a lot of the more kind of deleterious narratives around what sex should look like that [00:38:30] get, you know, that we imbibe throughout our lives and thinking going kind of back to the drawing board, what does, [00:38:35] like, good sex look like to me? What does being in my body. And I think that’s where self-exploration, I [00:38:40] think is such a fundamental piece of this, is, you know, what feels good for me? What makes me feel [00:38:45] comfortable, what’s it like? What is the context in which I feel good having sex? Like, is it that it is [00:38:50] with, you know, I need lots of conversation before do I need, you know, I need to feel really safe, all those things. And I think [00:38:55] that’s what is so kind of critical on this. Do you find it challenging to date? [00:39:00] Oh good question. Um, no. Oh, and I think the [00:39:05] current climate is an interesting one to be dating in, because I think we are going through such an interesting [00:39:10] transitionary period when it comes to all forms of intimacy, because technology is playing such [00:39:15] a like fundamental role in mediating all human connection now and now, the proliferation [00:39:20] of dating apps, everything is online, and suddenly you have this perception of a infinite [00:39:25] abundance of potential partners, and it creates, you know, if you’re always one swipe away from perfect, why ever choose a [00:39:30] person in front of you?

Rhona/Emma: That’s exactly what Esther Perel said I was listening to today. It’s oh my God, I love it. And [00:39:35] so I think that that has kind of whether you’re on dating apps or not, it’s changed the landscape in which we date. That’s [00:39:40] not to say it’s inherently bad. It just it’s different. And I think that [00:39:45] I’ve become Queen and I, I kind of fall into this. I am queen of the WhatsApp boyfriend because [00:39:50] I love to chat and I meet people, and then I end up in this kind of, yeah, there’s like WhatsApp relationship [00:39:55] where we’re just talking all the time and never actually seeing each other. And that is a digital [00:40:00] intimacy that’s just like not particularly fulfilling. And I think that I find difficult [00:40:05] to kind of transition away from that. I think when it comes to sex talks, whether that’s [00:40:10] like a barrier to dating. I don’t think so. I think I probably [00:40:15] I mean, people like slide into my DMs, probably thinking that they’re going to get a date because I like, talk [00:40:20] about sex. And I’m like, no. Yeah. But I haven’t really found it to be. I guess I like [00:40:25] when.

Payman Langroudi: Guys think that you’ve got some special techniques or. Yeah, probably, yeah, [00:40:30] maybe.

Rhona/Emma: I think because invariably when I go on a date with someone, [00:40:35] invariably they’ll ask me what I do, and then I talk about sex, and I have, because a story [00:40:40] around sex talks is so personal. And it’s so, you know, it’s about not liking sex, about sexual dysfunction. [00:40:45] It’s about eating disorders. And like, I can kind of choose not to tell that, but it’s kind of quite hard to tell. Sort of like they’re [00:40:50] always like, but wait, why? Like you’re in news. And so it quite quickly puts us into [00:40:55] quite vulnerable terrain, which I’ve actually just found opens up really interesting. I love a nice [00:41:00] conversation with people, but vulnerability is so underrated. Like people don’t realise. [00:41:05] Like actually not being vulnerable has something to do with ego. You know, I have a therapist and we talk about [00:41:10] this a lot. Listen to Esther Perello. I think I grieve the adolescence [00:41:15] that I never had. I think I do now that I’m engaged. Um, yeah. [00:41:20] Um, and he’s amazing. I grieve the adolescence and I have, because [00:41:25] if I’m honest with you and I’ve spoken to you about this before, my sensuality, [00:41:30] sexuality and confidence massively increased in my 30s. But I was told I was already [00:41:35] on the shelf. And the irony was, is that more people were attracted to me. So there was this kind of like dichotomy [00:41:40] going on, and I was so scared of, like being on the shelf. [00:41:45] And so I never explored it because of the Christian like guilt, etc., etc., etc. I’ve only been [00:41:50] in like long term relationships. So for me, I’m grieving the adolescence that I never [00:41:55] had. I’m not sure to be honest, because first of all, I really am attracted [00:42:00] to people based on an emotional connection. First. Um, do I think [00:42:05] it would have been interesting to hook up with someone I’ve never, like, hooked up with someone just because I physically thought they [00:42:10] were good looking. Like, that’s kind of like wild to me that I never did that. And I think [00:42:15] that, you know, there is a choice. And Esther Perel talks about this. She was like grieving, grieving, loss of self [00:42:20] is okay. And I think there is loss of self. Would I have hated it I don’t know, do you see what [00:42:25] I mean. So I can’t comment.

Payman Langroudi: What about the other side of it. Do you see it as some sort of achievement?

Rhona/Emma: I [00:42:30] think it’s achievement, but yeah, I think I always really admired my self control and my [00:42:35] will, you know, like I would I mean, I made my boyfriends wait a hell a long [00:42:40] time, you know, like and the thing is, because I wanted to be social and I was proud of that achievement. Remember? Like, I’ve [00:42:45] never drank, I’ve never taken drugs. I was never under the influence. Every decision I made was [00:42:50] a very conscious decision. Am I proud of that? Yes, I am proud of that. But also I’m [00:42:55] like, were they mistakes that like should have happened because people go through that as part of their like [00:43:00] growing pains, you know? So I think there’s definitely like a conflict within me that wonders, [00:43:05] you know, if I had let go and part of me, I love it. But again, it’s the Madonna [00:43:10] whore complex. It was interesting. Did you see that viral clip of that guy from Made in Chelsea? Like everyone [00:43:15] like he almost got cancelled. He basically went online and said that, like, and he’s a bit of a player, [00:43:20] and he basically said on a podcast that the way that he fucks, excuse my language, [00:43:25] um, girls on like girls that he just he’d never have sex [00:43:30] with his wife like that. And then the podcast went super viral and all these people were all the people were like, [00:43:35] what the hell? And all that? But he basically went out and said it, and he’s a 27 year old boy. Do you see what I [00:43:40] mean? So I still think that there is this complex, you know, for men. But also I think we’re seeing [00:43:45] the younger generation. There was that report by King’s College that found the other day, um, that [00:43:50] said that more Gen Z young boys think that feminism [00:43:55] has gone too far and men have a worse time than women like. And we know the worst [00:44:00] time is in life, as in in life, just like have fewer. Junkies are like, we’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Talked about this [00:44:05] a.

Rhona/Emma: Lot against them. And that one third of the boys who had heard of Andrew [00:44:10] Tate viewed him favourably. Yeah. So I think we’re also seeing kind of from a cultural perspective because [00:44:15] of figures like extremists like Andrew Tate, who are espousing, [00:44:20] um, very radical ideas around masculinity and toxic [00:44:25] brand of masculinity and are being pumped out by an algorithm. And I interviewed Laura Bates, who’s a brilliant, [00:44:30] um, writer the other day who set up the Everyday Sexism campaign and has written prolifically on the [00:44:35] structural ways in which patriarchy is continually entrenched in our society. And she [00:44:40] said that, yes, they’ve always been figures like Andrew Tate. But now the difference is we have an algorithm, and we have these social [00:44:45] media platforms that pump out their content to this target audience and are basically [00:44:50] unaccountable for that. And so you just have this, but.

Payman Langroudi: The algorithm is pumping out your content [00:44:55] to people who are interested in you, you know. Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: But but but what you’re saying is that then when you have when it comes [00:45:00] to more extreme ideologies like those, then they are the Trump effect as well. [00:45:05] Exactly. And, and so you’re seeing and so kind of young boys, for example, can just be fed this digital diet [00:45:10] of what is like hate speech and hate is like.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you say you say [00:45:15] that, uh, you know, we’re talking about gender equality and you’re very interested in that. Yeah. Are [00:45:20] you surprised that men are thinking that they’re now [00:45:25] not in the same sort of situation as women?

Rhona/Emma: I think that we’re going [00:45:30] through a really interesting period when it comes to gender relations, in that if you think in the broad [00:45:35] scheme of history, the changes, the as I said, [00:45:40] the podcast Women’s Position Society has changed so rapidly [00:45:45] over a relatively short period of time. If we think back, if we think to how quickly things, [00:45:50] I mean, in many ways really slow, in many ways it’s happened quite fast. And so I think now [00:45:55] I think we are having a kind of, I guess, a quite a dramatic pendulum [00:46:00] swing. And I can understand how young boys now who are [00:46:05] growing up having, you know, not also learnt about history, not learnt about kind of strife [00:46:10] of feminism and learn about historic gender inequalities, don’t understand the kind of structural ways in [00:46:15] which gender inequality issues continue to be very present. Bias against women. [00:46:20]

Payman Langroudi: Describe some of those.

Rhona/Emma: So, for example, we know that a woman is killed at the hands of her partner in the UK every [00:46:25] three days. So violence against women was declared a national crisis by the government at the end of last [00:46:30] year. Wow. So prevalent is violence against women, um, in many [00:46:35] different forms, and I think that so. But I can understand how young boys growing up today, who also [00:46:40] are online, who are being fed, you know, uh, conversations by the likes of Andrew Tate and [00:46:45] growing up and looking around and thinking, hang on a second, more women are graduating. Um, more [00:46:50] from university than men. I think, you know, women have feminine. There’s this kind of conversations online, on social [00:46:55] media. There’s a like feminism has got given women this real like, you know, thing to write around. And there’s a sense [00:47:00] of solidarity. And we have International Women’s Day. And I can understand how young boys growing up thinking, [00:47:05] but I don’t understand how women are supposedly like losing out. And I’m being told, like I’m the perpetrator [00:47:10] of this, but I haven’t done anything like, yeah, if if again, the education piece is so important. And [00:47:15] so I’m not like blaming young boys, young men at all. And I actually think they need [00:47:20] support and guidance and they need they need the role models that they need. And I think it’s so [00:47:25] difficult. I think it’s so, so difficult because I kept saying like, who’s the role model, who’s the role model, [00:47:30] who’s the role model? And it’s like, you have this like Johnny Bravo type character, come along and [00:47:35] like spout all of the stuff like Andrew Tate.

Payman Langroudi: I just don’t think that life is harder for women than it [00:47:40] is for men anymore. Anymore? Anymore outside of childbirth. Yeah. Okay. [00:47:45]

Rhona/Emma: There’s just, I think, a thing. Payman. So he doesn’t think gender pay gap. That’s a thing. So actually [00:47:50] just yesterday looking into this. So gender pay gap actually isn’t significant in 20. So in [00:47:55] kind of early start of our career not super significant I actually don’t the data on that specifically though. So I [00:48:00] don’t come up with that when women when it comes to having children. And [00:48:05] there are so many issues on this, but women will earn 60% less than their [00:48:10] partner for the ten years after the birth of their first child. That is, [00:48:15] that’s emblematic of broader systemic issues around child care costs being really high. [00:48:20] We don’t also, again, we don’t really incentivise men. We don’t have a system that’s set up [00:48:25] to encourage men taking paternity leave. And that being there’s so many problems again, [00:48:30] then perpetuate this issue, then women not being encouraged to go back to work and not making financial sense, [00:48:35] which then hold women back in their careers. And we know that long term that also affects things like, for example, contribution to pension [00:48:40] pots. So women end up accumulating less money in a pension being held back in their careers. And a lot of that is, [00:48:45] again, kind of a systemic issue to do with how we’ve who’s where the responsibility for childcare, [00:48:50] who’s shoulders that ends up sitting on. It’s been interesting anecdotally, seeing my friends in their [00:48:55] beginning to have children and look around and and friends who’ve had to really [00:49:00] consider, do I does it financially make sense for me to. Go back to work when I will be earning [00:49:05] basically nothing just to afford the childcare it’ll take to have my child going into nursery [00:49:10] who were therefore having to think, do I give up on a career I spent ten years building? And obviously, like [00:49:15] long term it will be so fundamental. I mean also let cost of living crisis. It’s very hard for any [00:49:20] families now on like normal incomes to be able to exist on, on one salary. So I think [00:49:25] there’s again but I think across the board there are myriad examples of where [00:49:30] systemic gender inequalities continue from the gender pay gap. So medical misogyny, the gender [00:49:35] pay gap, which we say is really comes into fruition when [00:49:40] at childbearing age for women. So that’s a kind of like second like stage of one’s career. [00:49:45] The pleasure gap. We know the orgasm gap is still alive and well, which is the. [00:49:50]

Payman Langroudi: Main men regularly orgasm. But many women go easy.

Rhona/Emma: It’s easy so well again. [00:49:55] But it’s actually it’s not that it’s like easy for men. I think it’s just like culturally we just we have a very, um, [00:50:00] gendered, male centric script for how we learn to have sex. I mean, way sex, come on, [00:50:05] biologically, like, we know that it’s easier. It is easier for men. I [00:50:10] mean, they can have sex with a turnip and come for sure. So if you look at the statistics. [00:50:15] So the gender, the orgasm gap is a disparity between the rate at which men versus women [00:50:20] orgasm in heteronormative partnered sex. So all genders orgasm 95% of the time [00:50:25] when they have, um, when they masturbate. Men orgasm pretty consistently at 95% [00:50:30] of the time when it comes to partnered sex. Casual sex, pretty, pretty consistent. But women, it drops [00:50:35] to 65% when it comes to, uh, sex with a partner in a relationship. And it drops to [00:50:40] 18% when it comes to casual sex. And I think those statistics probably maybe even higher than they probably actually are. [00:50:45] Um, what we see. So Doctor Catherine Gurney is an amazing sex therapist, writes about this. She’s actually given a Ted talk on [00:50:50] this. And she says, we know that the orgasm gap is an anatomical issue. Ak [00:50:55] women are just harder to make come because there isn’t an orgasm gap in same sex couples. So [00:51:00] in, uh, same sex couples, for women, lesbian couples are orgasming at the same rate. [00:51:05] So they’re just so. And again, none of this is just to to put blame at [00:51:10] like, men’s feet for this. Because I think what we see in the orgasm gap is reflection [00:51:15] of, again, this very narrow, reductive view of sex that we again learn from a young age. There’s [00:51:20] a story that always stands out to me that Laura Bates, who I mentioned before, said to told me once, and I think [00:51:25] she has written about it in a book, she does sex education in schools, and she went into a school some ten years ago [00:51:30] and or maybe less than that anyway. And there was a young boy who was [00:51:35] 14 who had, um, raped a girl in his class, and the teachers had asked [00:51:40] him, why didn’t you stop when she was crying?

Rhona/Emma: And he said, because I thought all women cried when they had [00:51:45] sex. His only like exposure to sex and his understanding [00:51:50] of sex had come from porn, because that’s what he’s seen online. And he hadn’t had proper sex education prior to that which had prepared him. [00:51:55] So I think to me, that story always stands out because I think it shows we are all done a disservice [00:52:00] by not having a proper education around sex and not having more open conversations, shame [00:52:05] free conversations around what sex can be like, exploring pleasure, exploring consent, [00:52:10] all these things. So I think with the orgasm gap, what we’re seeing is the fact that when you see sex [00:52:15] in films so often it’s two people don’t have any sort of conversation beforehand. They start kissing, [00:52:20] they fall onto the bed, they have penetrative sex. Very seldom is there any sort of clitoral stimulation, [00:52:25] even though we know that, um, more than half of women require more than 70% of women. The stat has left my [00:52:30] head, uh, require clitoral stimulation in order to orgasm, and they fall into bed. They come simultaneously. [00:52:35] Happy days. Nothing is said. So what we’re missing there is communication is key to good sex. [00:52:40] Clitoral stimulation for most women is a requisite for orgasming. And so. [00:52:45] And the focus on penetration again is kind of a very male centric model of sex. [00:52:50] It’s not to blame men. It’s just that if that if we’re growing up without proper good sex education, so what we’re learning is [00:52:55] what we see on TV and then in porn, like it’s kind of little wonder that then when we go [00:53:00] to have sex for, you know, early on, maybe for all of our lives, we’re kind of replicating [00:53:05] what we’ve seen elsewhere, but we don’t necessarily know that things can be different and therefore that they can [00:53:10] be better to add to the statistics. Also, I think it’s 70%, [00:53:15] 80% of women in a recent survey said that they’d faked having orgasm. So also women are [00:53:20] participating in this in faking having orgasms. Because how is your partner meant to learn [00:53:25] how to make you feel great? If you’re faking it, have a question? Have you ever faked it?

Rhona/Emma: Actually, haven’t [00:53:30] you haven’t ever faked. You know what? Once I was so bored [00:53:35] and he was like, I just like, I just I was before I’d done sex therapy, I really, I [00:53:40] like, really didn’t know what it took to make me cum. I was like, not in contact with my sexuality [00:53:45] in a very real way. And I was sleeping with someone and he was like, he came. And he was like, I want [00:53:50] to make you come. And I was like, oh, I did. Yeah, I just didn’t know what to do. And I felt embarrassed and I was like, oh, [00:53:55] just. But I never like, I’ve never like, I’ve never done like when Harry met Sally like this. The thing is, is that men can fake [00:54:00] it for.

Payman Langroudi: Faking it to make the guy feel better. Yeah. Well, just.

Rhona/Emma: Done. Get it done.

Payman Langroudi: Done. [00:54:05] Until he’s finished, right?

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, but they can get it done. That’s the thing, I think. Have you ever faked an orgasm? Exactly. [00:54:10] So there we go. Um, yeah. Have you? No. Never. Never [00:54:15] was legit. Yeah. So. But I’ve also, as I said, because I’ve been in, like, loving relationships, [00:54:20] but I think like. There’s just I mean, it’s just such a fascinating [00:54:25] topic to me. But also what fascinates me the most is also like the history behind it. Because if you [00:54:30] look at, like the Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, they were such sexual, sensual beings, [00:54:35] you know, like literally like orgies going on. And then it’s like, how did we get to where we are now? Which there’s there’s so much shame [00:54:40] around it. Well, I think the Victorian era had quite a big impact. But then this is what I find. I mean, this is why [00:54:45] I think sex is such an interesting topic, because it really does tell us so much about [00:54:50] our society, about how cultural ideas have progressed, [00:54:55] about how we see gendered roles. There’s just so much that shows up through in the context of [00:55:00] sex because, as you say, like sex, sex isn’t going anywhere. [00:55:05] We’ve always had sex, hence how we’re still here. And it’s [00:55:10] just been the kind of cultural ideas that sex has been shrouded in have been, [00:55:15] have changed, evolved, have often been rooted in religion. And we know that, as you said earlier, that’s very much rooted [00:55:20] in shame. But I’ve always been kind of, I guess, reflected like the ideas of the time around, [00:55:25] for example, like gender roles and stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Culturally. It’s interesting because we [00:55:30] had, uh, one of our biggest customer was in Holland for years. So I got very close [00:55:35] to our Dutch distributors. Yeah. The conversations they have with their kids about sex. Totally.

Rhona/Emma: Oh, they’re totally [00:55:40] free. I mean, like, they’re totally, like, even when I went to, like, the Scandinavian countries, I was kind of, like, blowing [00:55:45] my mind. But I remember, like, feeling really disrespected by this guy that was like, Swedish. And he took me on, [00:55:50] like first date and like within the first, like 30 minutes, he was trying to sleep with me and I was like, do not treat me like a whore. [00:55:55] And I was like so upset about it. But it was definitely just because he was being Swedish because like, I can like tell [00:56:00] that now in hindsight, he wasn’t disrespecting me, you know, like he definitely was. It’s like it was like [00:56:05] definitely like a cultural, like disconnection there. Um, but the one thing that I wanted to [00:56:10] say was, I want to talk to you about addiction. Right. Because, um, you know, addiction is something I’m really interested in, [00:56:15] especially how most of us are addicted to something. Gabor talks about it a lot. Yes, [00:56:20] but my question is, is that sex addiction is very real. [00:56:25] We all know the conversations that people are having now around Russell Brand. And, you know, back in [00:56:30] the day, he was the self, you know, confessed, um, sex addict, etc.. How [00:56:35] do you know that your relationship with sex is healthy versus it being an addiction [00:56:40] because you want a constant dopamine high? I don’t think I have the expertise to answer that question. [00:56:45] I would want to leave that with the professional, because I feel I can’t do justice to that question. Okay. Because and [00:56:50] I wouldn’t want to say because I think there is a lot of, um, there’s a lot of different [00:56:55] there are a lot of different ideas within in sex therapy more broadly around sex addiction. [00:57:00] I’ve done an article on this on sex addiction and love addiction before. And yeah, I don’t think I would [00:57:05] be able to do that justice. I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: The answer must lie in addiction. I mean, how do you know that you’re having [00:57:10] a drink, you’re just enjoying a drink or you’re an addict? It’s when the addiction becomes the most important thing. Yeah, [00:57:15] the thing becomes more important than everything that’s true.

Rhona/Emma: And it’s when you basically see. And again, I don’t want [00:57:20] to say because I don’t have the like, I’m not a therapist, I’m not a doctor. So I, I’m always [00:57:25] cautious of, of yeah, what I say in these sort of things. But. When [00:57:30] a when the habit or when the like process become the like the impact [00:57:35] of that habit. So say having sex becomes detrimental to your life. [00:57:40] Yeah, that’s when it’s tipped into being something that has a is a kind of an addiction, [00:57:45] like a dangerous addiction, as opposed to you just having like a really, [00:57:50] you know, a sense of appetite for sex, which is.

Payman Langroudi: There more of it, you know, is there what is [00:57:55] there more of it?

Rhona/Emma: More sex addiction.

Payman Langroudi: Porn?

Rhona/Emma: Yeah. Again. So I actually did [00:58:00] an interview with a sex therapist of the day, and she said that she cast [00:58:05] quite a lot of doubt on the recent research around porn addiction, actually [00:58:10] suggesting that it isn’t growing massively. I again, I just don’t on this area I feel slightly [00:58:15] wary of just because I’ve read a lot of different pieces of research recently and just don’t. Yeah, but [00:58:20] yeah. No, I hear you. I hear you around that. But I find it, like, [00:58:25] incredible that you manage to heal your eating disorder because I definitely, you know, when I [00:58:30] went through my body image and when I had, when I had was seriously underweight [00:58:35] and under eating at university, it was definitely around the whole notion of like, not [00:58:40] having body fat and a bikini or in your underwear or anything like that. And, you know, and it’s [00:58:45] an interesting thing that, you know, when you heal, like you said, that part of you, then you get more comfortable [00:58:50] with your body. Like I could never, ever go to like, a nudist beach. Isn’t that [00:58:55] what I could never. Could you do it? Could you go to go to a nudist beach? Sure, sure. He’s [00:59:00] looking at the camera being like, sure, guys, but I just couldn’t. I’m just. I’m too uncomfortable. I’m too scared of what people think. [00:59:05] Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: About what? Are you scared they’re gonna.

Payman Langroudi: Your body. You go on a beach. Beach?

Rhona/Emma: Okay. [00:59:10] Yeah. I just think it’s more like a more invasive. There’s parts of me also [00:59:15] on the beach in a bikini where I still cover up because I don’t want people to see what it actually looks like. Even a bikini. [00:59:20] Really. So it’s quite interesting. Body image issue. I was reading some, um, research [00:59:25] today actually, that was linking body image issues with sexual dysfunction. Um, [00:59:30] which actually was a my sex therapist. So I had, um, Alex, I mentioned before, [00:59:35] she ended up having written her master’s thesis, as I found out on that connection, which [00:59:40] is previously pretty under-researched element of sex research, that connection between body image and sexual dysfunction. [00:59:45] And there was a research paper I was looking at the other day that said that that body image issues may [00:59:50] have just as profound an impact on sexual dysfunction as performance [00:59:55] anxiety, which is kind of huge and hadn’t, hadn’t really been discussed before. And [01:00:00] then I looked up some other. I was like, well, how many people? Because we know, like, I actually don’t know a woman [01:00:05] who hasn’t got some form of issue with her body and with weight. And I’m sure now increasing [01:00:10] with social media, men are experiencing that too. But statistically, according to nice, 700,000 women [01:00:15] will have an eating disorder like have an eating disorder each year. And that’s only people [01:00:20] that have been reported. That’s only. And so the likelihood is that statistics can be so much higher, because how [01:00:25] many people are essentially nurturing a some type of eating disorder. But that’s not necessarily [01:00:30] like diagnose. And so I was thinking about that and I was like, that is so wild to me. Like how many women have [01:00:35] essentially a bad relationship with their body. And if we think the body image is are then affecting sexual [01:00:40] like dysfunction, how many women particularly but people more broadly are having not great sex [01:00:45] because they hate their bodies. Yeah. And that really blows my mind. And that really breaks my heart. Like [01:00:50] it’s not just about, you know, it’s one in the spectrum is not being able to like show your body on a beach, but at the other end is like, can [01:00:55] you even enjoy your body when it comes to sex?

Rhona/Emma: If we’re if all these kind of negative [01:01:00] thoughts around our bodies are so pervasive and have such a kind of crippling effect on our ability just to like, be and [01:01:05] experience pleasure, I think men also experiencing it more and more because they’re getting they’re getting like and social [01:01:10] media, WrestleMania and all the, you know, there’s conditions that exist also. And like I’ve seen some [01:01:15] of the most like insanely ripped men that actually are deeply insecure about their body, you know. So I think [01:01:20] that, you know, there’s social media is having just I mean, for everyone, we’re just constantly being [01:01:25] bombarded now with ideal like idealised images of what we should look [01:01:30] like with filters, with people who’s now like, you know, the Love Island lot, [01:01:35] come out with a six packs. And of course, that’s like, you know, filters down into then how we all, [01:01:40] even an unconscious level unrealistic perceive our bodies. Also you remember a lot of these people online like that’s a [01:01:45] job. That is a job to work out every day and to like to look good on camera.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s going to [01:01:50] get worse and worse as well because especially with AI especially.

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, yeah, I think an AI is giving like [01:01:55] a totally, um, I thought I follow Dyneema, I don’t know if you know her. She’s amazing. She’s got millions of [01:02:00] followers. And what she does is, is that she basically debunks like everything influencers does because she was [01:02:05] like, this isn’t a before and after. This is a five minute. And she’ll show her like cellulite showing saggy bum [01:02:10] and then like five minutes later the perky because she just shows about positioning. It’s about lighting, it’s about all this [01:02:15] stuff. And what was interesting, she showed like some a video about how also men were commenting [01:02:20] saying, I came across your stuff and I thought it was only my girlfriend that looked like you, [01:02:25] because they’d seen so many women online that they thought their own women were imperfect. Do [01:02:30] you see why I mean, so, like everyone else in the world has perfect looking women. Because the algorithm.

Payman Langroudi: The algorithm [01:02:35] even does that. Yeah. Even even feeds you the kind of women [01:02:40] that, you know, you’re looking at.

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also then from the even sort of perspective and that’s where I think and social media, I [01:02:45] know we’re kind of this is a constant conversation and that feels like it’s such like a lack of accountability amongst social media platforms. [01:02:50] But I’ve noticed like before, I have actively [01:02:55] sought to I mean, obviously having eating disorder mentality from when I was like age 12, I [01:03:00] like unfollowed a bunch of fitness accounts. I was, I was obsessed with like the before and afters, before and afters. [01:03:05] And obviously I’d look at them and I don’t want to look at them, but then I’d like probably linger on that photo [01:03:10] and then I get the algorithm. So I unfollowed all the like, fitness influencer, food influencers I was following [01:03:15] and still now my home page. And I know this will be this is me. Like I’m obviously looking at things [01:03:20] like, but I’m still my home page sometimes will just become filled again with those before and afters. Even though I’ve unfollowed [01:03:25] people and it just reminded you of like how hard it is to escape the I [01:03:30] guess the more like negative like elements of where your mind is going to take you when social media [01:03:35] is there to like reinforce them, propelling it back at you. Exactly. So even the echo chambers [01:03:40] totally. And yet get off social media. However, it’s hard, you know, especially the [01:03:45] social media is a big part of like I mean, I, I couldn’t have I, I couldn’t really run six [01:03:50] blocks without it. Like it’s my biggest broadcast channel to be able to get the word out [01:03:55] that I’m doing them. That’s like a fantastic promotion, promotion platform, but it’s so hard to use these, [01:04:00] um, technologies in a responsible way when they are designed to be addictive. And [01:04:05] so to use it responsibly, it’s like it’s a bit extreme. It’s like being asked to like responsibly, [01:04:10] take a certain drug, take back a bit, take a bit. And it’s like I was trying to explain to him because [01:04:15] the Esther Perel Jay Shetty podcast, which I mentioned already, um, it basically [01:04:20] she said that there’s this dichotomy between people trying to find their soul mates and being [01:04:25] on dating apps at the same time, because actually it’s a contradiction in itself, because, she said, [01:04:30] dating apps are actually a form of capitalism, because they’re my like, they want you to be on it, they want you to pay, [01:04:35] etc., etc.

Rhona/Emma: and then finding your soul mate is like the spiritual element. So actually they don’t go [01:04:40] together. And I thought it was quite an interesting point. That’s interesting. That seems like an odd thing for her to say though, because [01:04:45] I kind of the business incentive of a dating app. Yes, obviously they’ll all say it’s [01:04:50] not, but obviously like they make money off people being on dating apps. So it’s not there long, long term interest for people to find [01:04:55] a partner. That being said, and so I don’t think they’re set up in a way. I think they do kind of encourage [01:05:00] us to prioritise aesthetic height, those sorts of things in the way that we [01:05:05] browse, and you just have to have some criteria. There are so many people, but on the flip side of that, I would also say that it does [01:05:10] just increase your exposure to more people. Therefore, statistically, from a [01:05:15] probability perspective, increasing who you’re potentially coming into contact with. [01:05:20] And I don’t think that if you I don’t actually believe in a soul mate, that there’s one [01:05:25] person out there. No, totally. I’ve had I’ve had a few soul mates. Yeah, exactly. And I think but so I think there’s a chance just, you know, it’s, [01:05:30] it’s then those if you then go and meet that person kind of regardless of how you met, if you meet someone [01:05:35] you do have a like deep compatibility with and you kind of see it working out with, then I don’t think the [01:05:40] like it’s, it’s working like that. You find them by way of a dating app means [01:05:45] that you’re not going to be able to find it like long term.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s kind of a poetic thing. She said. Yeah, but let’s say you meet someone [01:05:50] at a retreat. A retreat is a business.

Rhona/Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, it’s [01:05:55] it’s sometimes your mind makes these connections and it sounds beautiful, right? Yeah. [01:06:00]

Rhona/Emma: No, I hear you, I hear you. And during your journey with sex talks, have you suffered [01:06:05] from any kind of mental health related issues whilst you’ve been on this business venture? Um, [01:06:10] I actually think I’ve got really good mental health and I get, like, anxious, [01:06:15] and I definitely will always have. I’ll always have body image issues. I think [01:06:20] that will just be a part of who I am forever. And I think that’s probably true [01:06:25] for a lot of women, but it doesn’t take over my life in a really negative way now. And [01:06:30] I think anyone I think running their own business and online today, [01:06:35] anything I think anxiety, comparison, culture, all these things feel very [01:06:40] kind of rife. But I think on the whole I feel [01:06:45] really proud of where I’ve got to from a mental health perspective, because however, I like really [01:06:50] have cultivated tools, I think, to pull myself out of things. And I think that in a way, [01:06:55] like, I know, like for me, you know, it’s a cliche to say like exercise is my medicine. I exercise [01:07:00] every single day. I didn’t exercise today, which is crazy, but I had to be somewhere very early this morning. But I [01:07:05] exercise every single day and where before exercise for me was punishment for me it’s now it is [01:07:10] medicine. It’s the thing that just I think if you start your day, it’s very David Goggins. But if you start [01:07:15] your day with something really bloody hard and a massive challenge, you’ve already kind of won [01:07:20] before, like, yeah, and that just sets you up for like how you want the rest of [01:07:25] your day to go. And for me, it’s about like kind of discipline and getting spending. A whole bunch of energy [01:07:30] early on, and I think that it’s things in what can often feel like a very chaotic [01:07:35] work life, because, you know, when you’re on your own thing, there’s just so many moving parts. Every day is different, [01:07:40] every week is different, and that can feel quite chaotic. I really value having like, certain pillars [01:07:45] in my life that make it feel more stable. So exercise being one of them, um, reading [01:07:50] being another one, just things that kind of keep that feel like they can keep everything grounded. So yeah, I [01:07:55] feel actually like pretty proud. And I feel I can feel it in the way I’m able to, I hope, [01:08:00] support friends going through difficult times. I feel [01:08:05] that I can offer that because fundamentally, even if I’m having a bit of a crap week, [01:08:10] I’m offering from a full cup and I feel that quite profoundly at the moment, I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Have [01:08:15] you learnt listening to people’s stories about men and women [01:08:20] sexually that surprised?

Rhona/Emma: That’s such a.

Payman Langroudi: Broad. Surprised you, surprised you. But [01:08:25] are people more deviant than you thought they were, or are people more [01:08:30] more shy than we thought they were? Or?

Rhona/Emma: I think I [01:08:35] have learned that we all have a lot more. [01:08:40] Baggage and anxiety around sex, then we [01:08:45] often think, and I think that because of things like the orgasm gap, which is [01:08:50] very real, it’s easy to think that therefore our broken sex culture [01:08:55] is more adversely affecting women. And men are kind of [01:09:00] getting the like, good lot. And women are like the, you know, the victims of a broken sex culture. [01:09:05] And actually, I think we’re I said before, I think we’re all done a disservice by the fact that we don’t [01:09:10] get proper sex education that we like. I don’t think the majority of men are sitting there [01:09:15] being like, yes, I got an orgasm she didn’t like. I don’t care, I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think [01:09:20] that, you know, we all, you know, whether I think most people want [01:09:25] sex to be a mutually pleasurable experience, both parts like a form of connection and intimacy [01:09:30] and pleasure. And I think that I have been really struck [01:09:35] by the conversations I’ve had with men about the points of shame, [01:09:40] anxiety and vulnerability that they felt around sex. Because I think I hadn’t. I’d [01:09:45] always just assumed. I thought I was the only one that was broken around sex first and foremost. But I definitely [01:09:50] always thought that the men I was sleeping with, like, were cool as cucumbers and they were like, knew what they were doing, [01:09:55] had it all wrapped and they didn’t. They know, like I think. And that was the thing that struck me so much.

Payman Langroudi: Men [01:10:00] have got so much anxiety.

Rhona/Emma: Anxiety and shame and the performance anxiety performance. Yeah. Expectations around masculinity [01:10:05] like, you know, and this is what I think that like gender inequality issues and like the historical legacy [01:10:10] of gender inequality and notions around masculinity versus femininity, like these gender [01:10:15] straitjackets all of us. And I think the expectations to be macho, [01:10:20] masculine and then expectations to be kind of super feminine like that doesn’t really serve anyone. [01:10:25] Like we’re all nuanced, complex individuals. And I think when it comes to sex, I was really [01:10:30] surprised when I was doing sex therapy that I was having lots of conversations with my male friends, as well as my [01:10:35] female friends, and they were telling me things like, yeah, I actually have had lots of issues with performance anxiety. [01:10:40] I haven’t been able to come X amount of times. I’ve had, you know, I’ve got friends, text me. I do, you know, a good [01:10:45] sex therapist for men. And so I think that was probably something I hadn’t expected because I was just always [01:10:50] thought that I that like I was broken one therefore like this is something that women experience and men didn’t. [01:10:55] And I actually went to a really beautiful conversation the other day with Ben Hirst, who’s fab, who runs, um, who’s [01:11:00] director at a company called Beyond Equality, which works with young boys around cultivating that. Yeah. [01:11:05] Positive, um, like positive notions of masculinity. And he was speaking alongside David Chambers [01:11:10] and Max Hovey. And David Chambers is a sex coach, a men’s sex coach. And [01:11:15] it was a really vulnerable conversation around how much shame and worry that they’d felt in [01:11:20] their sexual careers. Also, having grown up in quite religious households and where masturbation, for example, [01:11:25] had been really frowned upon. So I think that has been a learning [01:11:30] curve for me, and I guess it’s opened my eyes to I’ve had very unsexy, [01:11:35] uh, analogy, which I always use at sex talks, which I think we all go into sex, these kind of backpacks [01:11:40] of anxiety thinking that our partner is backpack free and that they just have like, no load and they’re cool. [01:11:45] Um, and actually, I think that’s why communication is so important, because when you open up and say, hey, actually [01:11:50] I’m feeling a bit nervous or I’d love to try this or something you create the space for, then your partner in turn [01:11:55] to be able to feel like, okay, this is a safe space for me to be vulnerable.

Rhona/Emma: Like, oh, hey, you know what? This has felt like a bit of a worry for me, like, [01:12:00] or anything. Um, and so I think being able to acknowledge that shame and anxiety are things [01:12:05] that we all experience, I think, can also have a profound impact on the way that we show up in sex and therefore allow our partners [01:12:10] to. I love that. Wow. It’s been so amazing and so [01:12:15] fascinating. It’s really, really incredible. So I want to finish off really knowing what’s the [01:12:20] future for you. You know, what’s the dream? Where do you see yourself in like five years?

Payman Langroudi: So first of all, what’s [01:12:25] the current situation? How often do you do the pod?

Rhona/Emma: Um, so I do a live event at the London Edition [01:12:30] Hotel once a month. And can I be invited next? Absolutely. You can both come, so I do. So that’s a kind [01:12:35] of main, uh, like, anchor of sex talks. There’s one big live event every month, and it’s been great [01:12:40] when our second. No, we’ve done two years, so over two years now. But a sell out event series since launch. [01:12:45] So it’s just grown room, which is great. Um, and then I do lots of pop ups. I do them at Soho House and I do pop ups. [01:12:50] I mean, I do kind of sex walk events all over. How many.

Payman Langroudi: People term?

Rhona/Emma: Uh, usually it’s about 90. [01:12:55]

Payman Langroudi: And what’s what’s the kind of person who’s turning up people come on a date or friends come.

Rhona/Emma: Coming [01:13:00] on dates, which gives me so much joy. Not just like.

Payman Langroudi: A cool date. It’s kind of a cool date. [01:13:05]

Rhona/Emma: Okay, so I interviewed your son. Yes, I interviewed Karang-guni. As I said [01:13:10] before, Sex Therapist of the day about her new book, which is all about how how not to let having children ruin [01:13:15] your sex life. And she talked about how over [01:13:20] like a long period of time with a long term partner. So when you have kids together, the key to [01:13:25] sustaining a good, mutually pleasurable sex life is flex and change. [01:13:30] And in order to have those two things, you need to have communication. If we don’t feel [01:13:35] able to talk about sex, you’re not going to be able to evolve and change and experiment. And she was like, [01:13:40] when? It comes to having conversations with your partner. If you want to kind of shake up your sex life, you want to do something different, [01:13:45] but you feel like, oh, how how do you do that? How do you approach that conversation if maybe you haven’t talked about sex before? [01:13:50] A really great way of doing that is, ah, I actually listen to this podcast the other day. Oh, actually had a [01:13:55] friend tell me about this. I actually went to an event and they were talking about how x, Y, and [01:14:00] Z can be a great thing to explore to for, you know, to spice things up or whatever. So [01:14:05] you kind of have this third party influence. And so with that we’re saying, actually what a great way [01:14:10] then if you go on a date to something like sex talks, that can be your kind of the conversation starter [01:14:15] for you and your partner to then be like to go up to start the conversation.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona/Emma: It’s [01:14:20] not competition saying, I don’t like what you’re doing here, I hate this, I like this. They’ll be like, oh, I [01:14:25] thought that was a really interesting point that that person made. What did you think? Because then you’re also acknowledging maybe that person has sexual [01:14:30] shame, worry, anxiety, whatever. So I really like I try to encourage more people to go on dates [01:14:35] asexuals because I think hot date also bright green flag if that’s if you know, if someone’s saying to you, [01:14:40] let’s go. And because it shows that they’re open to have conversations about sex and intimacy. So anyway, so so [01:14:45] I do one live event every month and then do pop ups all over. So house is another regular one. And [01:14:50] then take it where I’ve taken to Ibiza, I’m going to launch in New York and LA in the coming months, so I really want to get [01:14:55] sex hooks in America. Was talking to someone today about launching it in Australia, in Sydney, um, [01:15:00] sometime this year. So that’s just for me as a live event. I absolutely love them. [01:15:05] I will be writing a book. I’m in the process of getting the proposal [01:15:10] done, which I’m really excited. I want to just nerd out and like really dig into the research. I love interviewing people, [01:15:15] but I want to get like deep and down and dirty and get in the research. I’m so excited for that. [01:15:20] And then I really want to just continue growing sectors. I ultimately want it to be a show. So it kind of Graham [01:15:25] Norton esque, probably YouTube first show that blends kind of current affairs and sex and [01:15:30] the way I set it up now, it kind of feels a bit like you’re stepping into a studio when you come to a live event. [01:15:35] It’s kind of lights, camera, action, vibes, and I love that. So I want it to be able to be a show and [01:15:40] yeah, have that in the next kind of year or so and then we’ll see. I think those [01:15:45] are kind of I feel like I’ve got quite a lot to go on the podcasts. I’ve comes out every week as well. Um, so I do some you’re [01:15:50] definitely going to make it.

Rhona/Emma: And if anyone that’s listening, you heard her on Mind Movers and she has her own show, [01:15:55] you know, Emma Louise Windsor. Oh, gosh. It’s fascinating. You know, you [01:16:00] are such an incredible speaker and so inspiring. And I’m so glad that you got out of your eating disorder, [01:16:05] etc. and can talk so openly and trying to kind of like really, you know, be a trailblazer [01:16:10] in this space. So thank you so much for coming. Well thank you. Love it so much for having me. It’s been so interesting. [01:16:15] And I did her teeth, by the way for anyone thinks I look amazing, honestly smile. [01:16:20] I get so many compliments on my teeth like yeah, really? She made them, I love them. [01:16:25] Also, before pictures I was like, oh my god, no, they’re still beautiful. Still no. So natural, I love [01:16:30] it. I know they’re just the best. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

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