Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: One point in life I was doing like 10 to 12 sessions a day, every day, seven days a week. And I [00:00:05] was literally like pushing myself into the ground. It was it was almost [00:00:10] a way of me coping, but also like coping with what I was going through at the time. But [00:00:15] it was also this connection that I had with every single client of mine. And I literally, [00:00:20] I can’t say yes to one client and no to another if I’m saying yes to a client. I had [00:00:25] to see every other client that day. And you’ve got to think it’s probably similar to actually maybe not [00:00:30] in dentistry because they’ve got their mouth wide open and can’t speak much, but but they take on a lot [00:00:35] of stress. You do, you do. Yeah. And I think that every hour you’re taking on somebody’s energy [00:00:40] and it’s mostly something like negative or something they’re going through in their life and you’re taking on this energy [00:00:45] and you need to give energy back to them, and no one’s giving you energy. Imagine [00:00:50] if you do that every single day, like mentally, you’re completely at a loss.

[VOICE]: This [00:01:00] is mind movers. [00:01:05] Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation [00:01:10] for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:15] Eskander and Payman Langroudi. Hello [00:01:20] everyone!

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Welcome to Mind Movies, where we explore the journeys and insights of remarkable [00:01:25] individuals shaping their fields. Today we’re joined by Sana Shivani, a renowned personal [00:01:30] trainer whose work extends beyond the gym into empowering individuals with the tools that they need for mental [00:01:35] and physical wellness. Sana was actually my personal trainer. We met during lockdown. I saw [00:01:40] her walking down Warwick No near Warwick Avenue in Little Venice, and I’d also seen her at events. Okay, [00:01:45] you’d already seen each other at events and I was absolutely blown away by the work [00:01:50] she was doing. One of the things that attracted me to Sana is actually her work around mental health online. [00:01:55] She was someone that I followed before I had my own following. I had about 200 followers. She had about 10,000 [00:02:00] and this was all the way in 2015. Sana was a trailblazer [00:02:05] in the fitness space and she was somebody that I idolised. I wanted to have her body, [00:02:10] I wanted to have her face and I thought she was pretty incredible. Sana’s journey is one of inspiration, [00:02:15] resilience and dedication, touching the lives from Hollywood to everyday fitness enthusiasts. [00:02:20] Welcome, Sana. Thank you. An intro. Wow. Thank you. Oh [00:02:25] so lovely to be here. Yeah, it’s amazing to be here. And I feel like you were trying to tell everyone [00:02:30] why and how we met. Which Payman likes to know.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So you can you can tell the world how we met. Okay, so actually, [00:02:35] we were at a, um. It was a party. It was the jewellers, wasn’t it? Jewellers? [00:02:40] Yes. No. Nima and that lot go to his parties, you know, like bougie [00:02:45] Iranian vibes, I don’t know. Yeah. Okay, so they had a massive party. I met Rona Naeem, a [00:02:50] couple of other guys at the party, and then lockdown happened, like, what, a week after [00:02:55] that? And then I saw her running with her boyfriend down the road near my house, and I was like, [00:03:00] very nice. So I saw that and then she got in contact with me basically. But yeah, we met out and [00:03:05] we just clicked from the first moment I actually thought you were Iranian. Yeah, everyone thinks I’m Iranian. I’ll take it to [00:03:10] the eyebrows. Um, no. Sana was amazing because she changed my [00:03:15] life. When it comes to fitness, I was very much about just burn calories and trying to lose weight. So [00:03:20] I started my journey into really, like, building muscle, doing training for like, [00:03:25] mindfulness and wellbeing and also like not over exercising and over doing [00:03:30] things bodies. And we spent a lot of time together because I was going to her house during lockdown and doing sessions, etc. you know, when [00:03:35] we were allowed to do all of that stuff.

Payman Langroudi: Am I right that you’ve had loads of trainers?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I’ve had a few [00:03:40] trainers, not loads actually. I’m actually, you know, I have real issues breaking up with my professional [00:03:45] people. Like I honestly like I can’t break better watch out. You know like honestly I can’t [00:03:50] break out, I can’t I found it really hard to break up with my therapist. And now that I have Ella, I’m like, [00:03:55] why did I stick to my therapist for so you know, when you suddenly are like, you just think it’s the way it is. [00:04:00] I’m sure people feel that about dentists. Like they go to dentists and they’re like, I’m just used to going to this person and they find someone they really love. [00:04:05] And they’re like, why the hell didn’t I break up with the other person much earlier, you know? So I had that with Sana a bit [00:04:10] like I had okay, personal trainers, but I think there was something to be said also about being [00:04:15] trained by a female, because I had a judgement against female trainers, only because I felt like they didn’t push [00:04:20] their clients as hard as male trainers. It was really weird, like I said, like I felt like being battered, you [00:04:25] know? But actually, there’s something to be said for someone that understands the female body and hormones, etc. [00:04:30] and also listening to your needs. So that was it. But Sana, I want you to [00:04:35] start from the beginning. I always get all of our, um, guests to come start from the beginning. And I want you to talk about your [00:04:40] early experiences, because just like me and Payman, you’re from a background, you’re Iranian, [00:04:45] I’m Middle Eastern, you know, we are used to growing up with being told that we should be [00:04:50] professionals. We know that your sister Zahra is well known as Zahra, the hygienist on [00:04:55] Instagram. Everyone knows. Yeah, everyone knows that Instagram likes favourites.

Payman Langroudi: One of my favourites. Oh, there we go.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Sorry. [00:05:00] Um, yeah. So we know that she works in dentistry. So [00:05:05] how did you basically, like, break the mould, you know, within your family? Tell us a bit about your [00:05:10] background, how you got into fitness okay, so I’m not going to lie, it was really, really hard. Like my dad is [00:05:15] a pretty conservative Iranian and he wanted me to either be a dentist, a doctor or a [00:05:20] lawyer. So it was one of the three and I just did. I didn’t have really any interest in [00:05:25] like sciences, English in school. I also didn’t have any interest in interests in PE, which [00:05:30] is really crazy because now I obviously love training, I love fitness, but I kid [00:05:35] you not, I was on my period every single day of the year for a whole year and to get out of PE classes, [00:05:40] I just I didn’t want to do it and I felt almost like a bit ashamed of my body. I didn’t want [00:05:45] to put my body in like gym care and yeah, sort of be out there, which is I think [00:05:50] that also comes from certain ways of speech when you’re growing up [00:05:55] and, you know, like parents being like, oh, don’t eat that. That’s really bad for you, or, um, only [00:06:00] providing, let’s say, bread and cheese, um, for breakfast and not having like, a varied diet growing [00:06:05] up. Um, but I think that’s when I was in [00:06:10] school, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I went to university, I studied business management. The only [00:06:15] thing I was actually quite good at in school was business management. I took. Accounting, economics, and those are the subjects. I was [00:06:20] really good at that pull with that. Business management. Yes. Ish. Um, but [00:06:25] he always, always, and even to this day still says to me, take a conversion course into, [00:06:30] um, law. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, but I went to university, [00:06:35] and when I went to uni, I was that’s when I really started having, like, body issues, because when I was [00:06:40] in London, my parents were quite protective. When I was younger, I wasn’t allowed to sort [00:06:45] of like, go out and, you know, I wasn’t allowed to go to sleepovers with my friends or anything like [00:06:50] that. So I wasn’t really exposed to, like, the social side of the world that much. I went [00:06:55] to school, I came back, I lived a pretty chilled life. Um, when I went to uni, I was more exposed [00:07:00] to everything, and that’s when I started becoming hyper aware of my body. And I went to [00:07:05] uni in Cambridge and back in 2010, there was no [00:07:10] person of colour in sight in Cambridge like now. It’s a beautiful city, it’s multicultural. [00:07:15] Back then everyone was a skinny blonde girl and white, you know, [00:07:20] type. Yeah. Skinny white, blue [00:07:25] eyes. Um, and no offence to anyone who’s like skinny white blue eyes, [00:07:30] but I just felt like I was different and there was nobody that looked like me.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: There was nobody [00:07:35] that was like I was a little bit soft around the edges, and I wasn’t as toned and long and lean [00:07:40] as them. And I didn’t have long legs, and I just felt super insecure about my body. So [00:07:45] I started to go to the gym when I was in uni. Granted, I was still that person who would like go onto [00:07:50] the treadmill, do like a 20 minute run and be like, okay, I’ve done the gym. But then I started realising [00:07:55] that actually fuelling your body in the correct way is the way that you’re meant to sort of think [00:08:00] of training, exercise, nutrition and wellness as a whole. So I started just taking [00:08:05] up these like mini nutrition courses just on my own. In my spare time, I wasn’t really [00:08:10] interested in going out as much with like the uni law, and instead all I wanted to do was [00:08:15] learn about nutrition and learn about training. And that’s when I started going into like strength training and [00:08:20] understanding the benefits of strength training. So this is during uni, whilst this is during uni. Yeah. While I was [00:08:25] studying, then in my third year of uni, I started suffering with my own mental health quite a bit [00:08:30] and that’s when I realised actually this is a bit of a release for me.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You know, going to the gym, having that [00:08:35] one hour to myself, being able to really just like do what I want to do, I know I’m doing something good for myself [00:08:40] was a bit of a release for me mentally. I also wouldn’t think about all my worries and [00:08:45] things like that when I’m, you know, in the gym training, so I started. At [00:08:50] that point, probably overtraining, you know, because you get like most people get into those cycles [00:08:55] where they’re like, I’m doing something so good for my mind and my body, and [00:09:00] you do it every single day, twice a day, sometimes if you have to, which obviously is very unhealthy. [00:09:05] Um, so I got the body that I sort of wanted or thought I wanted, and [00:09:10] I was still wasn’t happy. It wasn’t bringing me any sort of joy or fulfilment. [00:09:15] And after university, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do, job [00:09:20] wise, career wise. I didn’t really have a major interest in anything. I enjoyed business, it’s [00:09:25] such a broad subject. And so I got a sales [00:09:30] job in okay. Is it Moorgate in the city? Yeah. Yeah, I’m so bad with the city. Um, [00:09:35] so I got a job in Moorgate and I didn’t last more than I think it was like seven weeks. [00:09:40] And I was like, your dad freaking out? Yeah, he.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I came home one day and I was like, I’m just not going [00:09:45] back. It’s not for me. The central line. I can’t deal with it. I can’t deal with, like, the city workers, [00:09:50] anything like the office. Everyone’s just shouting and it’s so male dominated and I just [00:09:55] really hated it. So I just quit. I started working for my dad, so my dad works in property. My [00:10:00] dad thought that I was going to, like, work for him forever. And, you know, take the name [00:10:05] of the business and continue the continue the business as I get older. Um, but again, [00:10:10] I thought I was quite good at it because I dealt with like the lettings side of things. And I would like meet with [00:10:15] people. I would show them around houses, do all the contracts. It was a very [00:10:20] like it was a people skill that I had. I was really [00:10:25] good at speaking with people and getting them to whatever it was that I [00:10:30] was selling, getting them to sort of buy into that. And I enjoyed working with [00:10:35] people. I didn’t enjoy doing the office stuff. I didn’t enjoy sitting, writing, the contracts or anything like that, so [00:10:40] I was pretty good at it. But again, I would finish the working day and I would want nothing more but to go to [00:10:45] the gym and I would sit there in my breaks research and training methods, researching nutrition, and [00:10:50] it was all I cared about.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So after about two and a half years of working for my dad, [00:10:55] I said to my dad, I’m going part time. I was like, why? Why are you going part time? Have you got another [00:11:00] job? What are you doing? Are you going to study law? And I’m like, uh, no, I’m just going to go and work at [00:11:05] this studio and I’m just going to do front of house. So you’re a dosser. You have no like, [00:11:10] I want the Iranian accent. I can do it. You know, I don’t Payman. That’s okay. [00:11:15] Go for it. Yeah, but to be fair, like, my dad’s [00:11:20] been here since he was, like, 13 years old. He’s been here for a very long time, and. But his [00:11:25] mentality is still very, very Iranian. So he was he was really not happy. But [00:11:30] by that age, I was like, this is what I want to do. And I can’t live a life where I’m not fulfilled every single [00:11:35] day. So I took that part time job and I started to slowly wean off my [00:11:40] dad and the work I was doing with him. We actually, like, fell out for a short period of time because [00:11:45] I obviously left the business and he never, ever took my work seriously, [00:11:50] actually, all the way up until I got my, like my deal with Under Armour [00:11:55] in 2017.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And even then, he didn’t take it seriously. What were you working for other people [00:12:00] though, at this point? No, I was just doing front of house work, so I was literally [00:12:05] doing front of house work just to get my foot into the industry. And I was I was getting paid like £10 [00:12:10] an hour or something, and it was the most boring job. It was very small studio. It was a studio called Ten Health [00:12:15] and Fitness, but it was one of the smallest studios and it was predominantly [00:12:20] Pilates physio work. And I wouldn’t say I enjoyed it because I found it quite [00:12:25] boring. I wanted that side of the job where I’m like talking to people, interacting with people, and instead I got the computer [00:12:30] stuff, which I absolutely hate. Um, but anyway, so I [00:12:35] then started making that transition. I was now full time at ten. Health and fitness. And I [00:12:40] decided after I got my qualifications that I was going to get a mentor in the business. I got a mentor. [00:12:45] Who was it? Tyrone Barnard. He’s my patient. Oh. Is he. Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:50] He’s from. Well, yeah, he’s from Chelsea. Yeah. So, um, be the fittest [00:12:55] on Instagram. I think he still is. So I asked him to mentor me. Um, and I knew [00:13:00] I wasn’t. Did you just approach him? Because I think, like, that’s an important point because people often ask, how [00:13:05] do people, like, get what they want? And I think, like Payman, you probably remember when I first [00:13:10] met you, I had no problem.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And just going out there and asking people so I’d find people that were inspiring [00:13:15] and be like, I’m just going to take a punt. Can you help me? Can you give me advice? And I’ll never forget you drove [00:13:20] me back all the way from Raphael’s practice in wherever it was, Hertfordshire. And [00:13:25] I just basically grilled him and I was a nobody. And Payman loved all the like, Dental geeks that were, like, [00:13:30] amazing at, like, stuff. And I was like, listen, I’m not one of those, but like, help me on this path. [00:13:35] And I think it’s a really important point to make. Like, if you don’t ask, you don’t get I think even [00:13:40] if you think you’re nobody compared to these like, people that you consider very [00:13:45] inspirational or aspirational, just ask. Yeah, I totally agree. If you don’t like [00:13:50] if you don’t ask, you don’t get. Yeah. And so I did just directly ask him. But we did [00:13:55] have a couple of mutual friends. So I knew of him. We didn’t really know each other personally. I knew a little bit of his [00:14:00] story and, um, we just got on. So I literally had that mindset. I was like, what is the [00:14:05] worst that’s going to happen? He’s going to say, no, I’m back to like where I currently am.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah. Um, he [00:14:10] was really, really kind. He took me on and mentored me for like a whole year. He also gave me my first [00:14:15] ever client, so he gave me my first ever client. He was taking a cut and I was earning. Did you have a [00:14:20] PC qualification at this point? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did it all. Sort of like as I was working with my dad. [00:14:25] Yeah. So I remember oh my God. Now when I think about it, I’m like, I was such a shit [00:14:30] PC, but when you’re so young and you just feel like, you know, I [00:14:35] like I had that thing in my head. If I get a mentor who has done what I want to do, [00:14:40] has a successful business, can teach me the ropes, can teach me like the principles [00:14:45] that are really important, then maybe I can be where he is sort of at, you know, [00:14:50] you’ve got you you kind of want proof of, of the business like working from proof [00:14:55] of concept. Yeah. Proof of concept. So anyway, um, I had my first client from him. I remember [00:15:00] I would drive every single day from Saint John’s Wood to Ealing to do this one PT session with [00:15:05] this lady used to get a ticket every single time, because I always parked my car in the wrong place, so I’d make like no [00:15:10] money.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: But I did that solidly for like six months with that, [00:15:15] with that one lady. And then I was like, right, I’m going to start putting. Out there that I [00:15:20] am taking on clients and if they want, they can get in touch with me. And people just started [00:15:25] getting in touch with me. I think it was just where I was getting advice and education from, [00:15:30] like the people in my industry who had already done it. They could see that I was somebody who was hungry to learn. [00:15:35] I learnt a lot around strength training specifically for women and why it’s [00:15:40] so important, and that was literally one of the main factors that really drove [00:15:45] me in my business, because when I started learning about all these stats about women in menopause, women, [00:15:50] when even they even when women reached the age of 27 as young as 27, [00:15:55] you are so much more prone to osteoporosis as a female than you are as a male. As soon as you hit menopause, [00:16:00] 30% bigger drop than a male with all your muscle, your bone density. [00:16:05] When you hear that your grandmothers just had a random thought, that’s because her knees, her ankles, [00:16:10] her core can’t support her, she hasn’t got stability. And all of those things [00:16:15] really, really drove me to learn as much as I could about the human body, [00:16:20] about strength training females and then being able to sort of apply it.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I think [00:16:25] where people started realising that I was talking some sort of sense is [00:16:30] because I was putting this education out there on my platform. Back then, there wasn’t that many like fitness influencers, [00:16:35] and I was, um, but this is also like the era where people were really concerned [00:16:40] because obviously when I found your profile. Yeah, to be honest, like, I had disordered eating, as you know, [00:16:45] and like body dysmorphia. So I wanted to be as skinny as you like. That’s why I followed you. [00:16:50] Wasn’t because, like, I was like, wow, this girl is like. And you even said that was a really unhealthy weight where [00:16:55] you were at that point and you said it was unsustainable. So like, was there not an [00:17:00] element at that time because conversations, I mean, I have to still educate Payman all the time on this. [00:17:05] And it was there not there. Was there not an element of like conversations around the fact that actually [00:17:10] this size of body is not necessarily sustainable nor healthy. But were you educated [00:17:15] enough at that point? See, at that time, no, because the majority of the fitness industry, [00:17:20] which was quite small at that time online, were all like that, like they all went [00:17:25] down that road of, um, like she was she was eating between [00:17:30] 2016 to 2018. That’s when like the fitness industry really started. Like, are [00:17:35] you.

Payman Langroudi: Saying that there was almost the fashion was to be super skinny and now the fashion is to be a.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Bit more? No, [00:17:40] I think that I think at that time people started becoming more engaged with [00:17:45] training as they did, that it’s so natural. If you’ve never trained before and you [00:17:50] become obsessed with it, for you to go overboard and over train and under eat because you’re seeing these results, [00:17:55] you’re feeling great. But eventually there will be a catch. You’ll either get injured, something will happen with your [00:18:00] hormones. Something will happen with your body because it is so unsustainable. But at the time, [00:18:05] the whole of the fitness industry, the way I knew it back then, was almost like that. [00:18:10] Like there wasn’t that many people in the industry. I think unfortunately, we’ve taken a couple of steps back [00:18:15] like, this is my $0.02 into it. Like I grew up in 90s, 2000. I told you I went to university. [00:18:20] I was completely like comfortable. My parents always told me to lose weight because again, [00:18:25] they’re like, they were of that ilk that like the skinny you are, you look like better not blaming them. That was what they grew [00:18:30] up with. Then I went to university, got like scouted to do modelling quite a lot, and then [00:18:35] the girls that I lived with, which were white boarding school [00:18:40] eating disorders were like part of life, were like, oh, you better lose some weight. You’ve got a casting, oh, [00:18:45] your legs are too big for this. Or like, oh. So all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, you know, like I need to [00:18:50] lose weight. And I really wanted to fit in. I wanted to be part of the crowd. I wanted to feel like I belonged. So [00:18:55] I went into like, under-eating overexercising. Exercising for me was just [00:19:00] like walking on a treadmill or a cross trainer. Yeah, to burn as many calories. Exactly. And that was kind of the vibe. [00:19:05] And then I go out and I was really like my ribs were protruding, my arms were.

Payman Langroudi: Like thin, was heroin chic [00:19:10] and all that. Correct.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And then obviously I got the validation. But then I also got to a point where people like, she looks really ill, because obviously, [00:19:15] like my top half is pretty skinny. So it looked really unwell, you know. Anyway, then [00:19:20] what happened was I like I said, I came to London, I worked and I started putting [00:19:25] on the weight. And the thing is, I put on a lot of weight, and the reason why I put on a lot of weight is because my body wasn’t used to food, [00:19:30] but I couldn’t work without food. So I take a bite of something and suddenly five kilos, [00:19:35] I mean, you know, and I was like binging, restricting, binging, restricting. And so like, I went through [00:19:40] like a period of, like real self-loathing. Then Sana obviously educated me. I think we were lucky [00:19:45] because also like a bunch of influencers came out that were like, muscle is sexy, [00:19:50] tone is sexy. You can have like, you can be like curvy but toned, you know? I mean, that’s another [00:19:55] thing. Narrative started changing now. And I think the biggest thing is, is as Mpic, which I’ve [00:20:00] told Sana about and I think like people now are taking these [00:20:05] injections to restrict their appetite. And they’re already thin. They’re already [00:20:10] thin. It’s but it’s quite worrying because I have a friend of mine who’s a GP and she [00:20:15] said there has been an increase in the amount of people in.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: In the A&E waiting room because [00:20:20] of the zenpix because people are sorry. I find this so, so crazy. [00:20:25] The reason why I find it crazy is because, look, I think it’s great that there’s something like ozempic [00:20:30] on the market for the people who need it. Um, feel about it, right? Yeah. [00:20:35] Of course. Yeah. For your general population, if you are going on a zembic to lose weight, you [00:20:40] will lose weight, right? However, the majority of that will come from your muscle. Do [00:20:45] you know how unhealthy that is for your body? Then you are firstly, when you take your [00:20:50] calories so low, which is what happens when you’re on a ozempic, your metabolism starts to really slow [00:20:55] down. And that’s why after when you come off it, as soon as you eat anything, you will [00:21:00] put on weight. You will put on weight because your metabolism has massively slowed down. So now your set point [00:21:05] is so low, your maintenance calories just to maintain your body is so low. So you’ve got to be [00:21:10] able to take that back up to its normal like maintenance to be able to [00:21:15] not put on weight. And that’s not even my problem with it. The problem is that there’s so many bad things that happen [00:21:20] internally just in terms of like your muscles.

Payman Langroudi: And that Joe Rogan clip.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Tell [00:21:25] me, tell me, tell me where.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the guy was saying that they didn’t have to do these tests for [00:21:30] the FDA clearance or whatever, but he realised people are losing weight, but they’re becoming fatter, like [00:21:35] their their fat to like muscle.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Muscle. Yes. Muscle fat percentage. Yeah. So [00:21:40] like any weight that they have will be fat rather than muscle. Yeah. And that’s really. [00:21:45]

Payman Langroudi: You know the, the job itself of being a personal [00:21:50] trainer. She look Ronan’s just made it clear there’s a massive mental element to that. So like [00:21:55] what do you call them. Clients. Yeah. Client comes in. You’ve got to unpick the [00:22:00] whole mental side. And you know they’re essentially they’re there for their physical side. Right. [00:22:05] But the mental side is really important right. As she’s just shown. But then also I’m quite interested. [00:22:10] We were talking to Artur about this. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Oh yeah Sonia introduced me to Artur. Oh, really?

Payman Langroudi: Really. Yeah. [00:22:15] So how much of your value add is your knowledge and how much of your [00:22:20] value add is your delivery? Yeah, because it’s a massive thing dentistry as well. Right. You know, you can be the best [00:22:25] dentist but not have the best chance.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Right. Can I just interject there, Sonia. Like, listen, Payman [00:22:30] always jokes. He’s like, Rona doesn’t hang out with normal people. She doesn’t know normal people. Like, [00:22:35] I pick the special ones.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t say it as a compliment.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I know, he says it’s a really bad thing. You know, I like I [00:22:40] know that, I know, but I’m just saying to you, you’ve got it all wrong. It’s because I like I naturally gravitate [00:22:45] to people that I know are the best at what they do. And in terms of like, I’m not talking about [00:22:50] just the skill they provide, but the heart that they do it with. And like, that’s why I said to you, the same with Ella. [00:22:55] Sonia is special. And once I when I started like raving about her, she suddenly had [00:23:00] like a billion dentists. She still laughs about this because she literally changed. Changed my life in lockdown. [00:23:05] Yeah. No. But like she literally started training so many dentists because they believed me and [00:23:10] they were seeing the results on my socials. But it’s because she has that compassion and understanding, [00:23:15] you know, and I sometimes got told by personal trainers I wasn’t being strict enough, I wasn’t working hard enough, [00:23:20] or I was like, she’d be like, you’re having a bad day. Let’s do something low intensity. Do [00:23:25] you know what I mean? Like, she has the special touch. The thing is, with personal training, it is something [00:23:30] it’s. You spend a lot of time with that person and you get to know them. And I think that there’s [00:23:35] a huge part of it that is completely a mental side of it, rather than a physical [00:23:40] side. And naturally, I’m quite a big empath, but I have become more and more empathetic [00:23:45] as the years have gone, gone by and it. It almost [00:23:50] works to my detriment sometimes because I’m in a situation where I literally can’t stop myself, [00:23:55] but feeling something that my client is feeling when they’re explaining something to me, and then I’m like, but am I doing [00:24:00] my job properly? Because actually I should be training them and I shouldn’t be sitting here like feeling with them. [00:24:05] But it is a huge part of my job. Personally, I think because of how vocal I’ve been around [00:24:10] mental health on my socials over the years, I think I attract a certain type of client. [00:24:15]

Payman Langroudi: Do you only train women?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: No, no. So even the men that I [00:24:20] train, I still think they fall within this bucket of people who are in touch with them. [00:24:25] Their own mental health may be struggling at the time and have, you know, [00:24:30] reached out to me in order to help their physical health, but then actually see such [00:24:35] an improvement in their mental health. I think, like, I’ve got this one client, he’s male. [00:24:40] He contacted me at a time where both his parents had passed away [00:24:45] within like a six month period, and it was also a time where my cousin [00:24:50] passed away as well. And then within we sort of met at that time together, [00:24:55] and he was in a really bad place, and I wasn’t in the greatest place either. And it [00:25:00] was more how we were mentally helping each other through that time that actually got [00:25:05] the results that he even got physically. He’s like, imagine if you [00:25:10] hate the gym and you decide to go to the gym.

Payman Langroudi: I do hate the gym.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I [00:25:15] say, um, but no, imagine you [00:25:20] really hate the gym. You decide to reach out to a personal trainer and go to the gym, and [00:25:25] you still hate the gym after two weeks, but you start noticing certain things in your head is a little bit clearer. You can [00:25:30] think through things a little bit better. You’ve just got this like spark in your mind that isn’t as negative as always. [00:25:35] Then you start to think, okay, well, this must be good for me, and you start doing it [00:25:40] more. Then your results actually become a by-product. And I do have a lot of clients that that is the way [00:25:45] around. You know, it’s first the mental change and the physical change is just a by-product and it just happens. [00:25:50] And it’s a long time. Like I was looking at photos of me from like ten years ago and [00:25:55] I was like, oh my God. Like, I’ve changed. I’m actually proud of myself. As in, like, I’ve got so [00:26:00] much more muscle tone and stuff. And I was like, but that took me ten years because now I don’t go into the gym [00:26:05] with any goal, just go to the gym. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But I would say also [00:26:10] it takes its toll on the trainer as well because.

Payman Langroudi: Like a psychiatrist, [00:26:15] right. You take it on other people’s. Yeah. Stress.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: At one point in life I was doing like 10 [00:26:20] to 12 sessions a day, every day, seven days a week. And I was literally [00:26:25] like pushing myself into the ground. It was it was almost a way of me coping, but [00:26:30] also like coping with what I was going through at the time. But it was also this [00:26:35] connection that I had with every single client of mine. And I literally, I can’t say yes to one client and [00:26:40] no to another if I’m saying yes to a client. I had to see every other client that day. [00:26:45] And you’ve got to think it’s probably similar to actually maybe not in dentistry because they’ve got their mouth wide open [00:26:50] and can’t speak much, but but they take on a lot of stress. You do, you do. Yeah. [00:26:55] And I think that every hour you’re taking on somebody’s energy and it’s mostly something like [00:27:00] negative or something they’re going through in their life and you’re taking on this energy and you need to give energy [00:27:05] back to them. And no one’s giving you energy. Someone’s either draining your energy [00:27:10] and you’re draining it yourself by giving that energy back to them. But like, no. [00:27:15]

Payman Langroudi: That up day after day after day.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: No one’s filling up your cup. Yeah. So if imagine if you do that [00:27:20] every single day, like mentally you’re completely at a loss. Like I literally got [00:27:25] to the point where I could not get out of my bed to go to work. I literally could not move. [00:27:30] And I had this guilt in my head about not being able to train my clients or [00:27:35] see my clients. I had to start them being a bit honest with my clients when I got to that really negative place. But [00:27:40] it’s it’s a massive balancing act that I think new pets need to be really, really [00:27:45] wary of. Like now I’m so much better and I have boundaries and I have to protect my own mental [00:27:50] health to be able to help you with your physical and mental, you know?

Payman Langroudi: But also, Otto was saying things [00:27:55] like, he has to know what’s going on in the news, what’s going on in business, because the, you know, he’s [00:28:00] a high net worth whatever CEO of a company says something about a board meeting. [00:28:05] Otto has to be able to answer that question. Yeah, yeah. And I never would have thought that.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, [00:28:10] but I think.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the value add he gives to those people.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: 100%. But I think it’s so interesting as well, [00:28:15] like your clientele is you’ve got to know your niche, your clients. Right. And when [00:28:20] I started building my 1 to 1 business, I got like my niche was the more higher [00:28:25] net worth, sort of like business owners or like, yeah, high net worth people that could afford [00:28:30] my services. And I had tough conversations with these people. But I [00:28:35] want to rewind a little bit before we get on to that, because Sonja was working for a very well known [00:28:40] gym company, um, where actually I think that you could say it was almost [00:28:45] like a cult. Yeah. I’m not going to mention who it is. And then, um, she met. A lot of big parts [00:28:50] that were out there, etc. but one of the reasons why Sana [00:28:55] actually quit, even though it made her meet a sort of bunch of clients, is because of their [00:29:00] ethics and values. So the real turning point was this company during Black [00:29:05] Lives Matter, had a lot of black personal trainers, but they didn’t do anything [00:29:10] on their social media to support their trainers, to make a statement, to do anything like that. And [00:29:15] then Sana felt very passionately about that. So all those trainers left during lockdown [00:29:20] for that reason.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And then Sana soon followed suit. And I think that’s really interesting, because [00:29:25] I think that it’s really hard to stand up for your own, like [00:29:30] values and ethics, especially in a corporate company that’s quite like successful. So do you want to tell us a bit about [00:29:35] that? Agreed. And also coming from I never thought I could make it in this industry because [00:29:40] when I first started in this industry, firstly no one looked like me. Secondly, I was like, [00:29:45] right, when you see like a name of a brand, sorry, like [00:29:50] a influencer of any type, like representing a brand, it’s always like Sarah Davis, [00:29:55] sorry. To your name, Sarah Davis, she’s on Dragons Den. Dead. Oh, that’s what I got. Yeah, but, [00:30:00] like, it’s such a white name. I was like, Sana Shivani, it’s never really going to be up in lights, [00:30:05] is it? Yeah. Like it’s just never. I just never saw it as. Because I’ve got a foreign name [00:30:10] and, you know, I’m just not going to get the jobs that everyone else gets. And building myself [00:30:15] to the point that I was when I was a part of this company was like, it’s quite a big step for me to to leave [00:30:20] and be like, okay, well, I don’t know what I’m going to do after this.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I’ve got my own client base, [00:30:25] but that was where I trained them. And I think for me, being [00:30:30] in a service based industry, you also have to service your employees to an [00:30:35] extent as well. And I think that in our industry, employees and personal [00:30:40] trainers give so much to the company, so much to their clients, and it was just the bare minimum, [00:30:45] you know, to be vocal about something that that obviously we all feel very strongly about. So [00:30:50] there was a group of us that decided to leave. I was one of them. Um, and you’d never been freelance [00:30:55] before, is it? Not? Like, I know, like within a gym, but as in, like just. Well, that was when I was, like, completely [00:31:00] freelance. I’m still freelance while I was working there, but I was obviously I had certain classes that I was teaching at [00:31:05] the time and things like that. So I had a regular income then. But then shortly after that, I got my job at Disney [00:31:10] and it sort of all worked out. What do you think this comes.

Payman Langroudi: From, this sort of idealistic things? I’ve seen that [00:31:15] in your sister as well. Very sort of fixed based, idealistic. Come [00:31:20] to your parents?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think it comes from my parents.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s do it.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, yeah. Um, I [00:31:25] think that same thing we talked about this immigrant thing. Yeah. Like my dad.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone, [00:31:30] not every immigrant would do it, though.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: But I think it’s like, I don’t know, like, I think we have this, like, DNA to kind of, [00:31:35] like, really perform and do well.

Payman Langroudi: And that’s not what she’s done, though. She’s left her job. Yeah. [00:31:40] For a for a point of, you know, ethics. Yeah. I can see many immigrants keeping [00:31:45] their head down and considering it’s an immigrant thing.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Farnese’s son is not afraid as well. I mean, she’s [00:31:50] been very vocal about lots of political things. I just think I’m quite like I’m quite a straight [00:31:55] up person as well. Like, sometimes I get myself into trouble. My mom’s like, why are you saying things like so directly? [00:32:00] I cannot, I’m very bad at being diplomatic. And even when I’m like [00:32:05] vocal about like, things going on in the world and stuff, I’m like, have I said that really directly? Should I not, [00:32:10] you know, because I, I’m just a very direct person. I think it’s sometimes the best [00:32:15] way to be because you just otherwise I will constantly be trying [00:32:20] to please people and I’ll constantly be picking my views, my opinions under the carpet. If not, [00:32:25] um, but I do think it comes from my parents as well. My dad is a very, very strong character, very strong [00:32:30] character. He was a workaholic growing up, and I think I’ve also like got that trait from him as well. Yeah, [00:32:35] because you’re working with seven days a week. Um, but Sana, one of the major things I mean, we’ve talked [00:32:40] about, you know, your career trajectory, but I think one of the things that really shaped you is [00:32:45] what happened to your cousin.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I think that also had a huge impact on your physical health, because that’s something [00:32:50] that you told me. Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s something that we have touched on before on my [00:32:55] movies. And, you know, I really appreciate that you’re going to talk about this, but can we talk about your cousin [00:33:00] and what had happened and how that shaped you? Yeah. So my cousin at the time was [00:33:05] 25 years old, male. He was a year younger than me at the time. So we were like [00:33:10] the closest cousins in age from the top. My sister’s older and, um, [00:33:15] it, I was at the [00:33:20] ear, nose and throat hospital, I think, in Charing Cross. And, um, I was [00:33:25] having an argument with my dad, and I was in the hospital waiting for something. I was on the phone to my dad, and I was [00:33:30] having an argument, and he said that my cousin’s name is Abbas. Um, [00:33:35] he said, well, Abbas is dead. I just didn’t believe him, but it didn’t even cross my mind that [00:33:40] this was a true statement. I was arguing with him about something, so I just put the phone down and that [00:33:45] was that.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And then I got in a taxi and I was like, hold on, did he just say Abbas [00:33:50] is dead? Like, surely not. So I took the taxi. I told him to go back [00:33:55] to the hospital. My mum was there, my sister was there, and then I just walked [00:34:00] in and I was like, what do you mean? Abbas is dead and. [00:34:05] Like I could just tell by their faces everything. It was true. And I [00:34:10] literally remember the moment I just dropped to the ground. And I was like, no, [00:34:15] no, like fucking. He like how, how like, how can he be dead? Um, [00:34:20] and then I started putting two and two together and I [00:34:25] rang his dad. And I remember I was outside speaking to his dad, [00:34:30] and, um, I was just like, I didn’t know what to say. I was just, like, crying. I [00:34:35] remember a stranger came up to me and gave me a hug, and it was just I remember the exact [00:34:40] moment. But basically he was really struggling with his mental health and he. Um. [00:34:45] It was the night of my birthday. He committed suicide, and. [00:34:50] Also within like my family, who are quite conservative. [00:34:55] That’s like such a like what?

Payman Langroudi: No taboo.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Taboo thing. Yeah. [00:35:00] Initially, my family didn’t want to tell the rest of the family, like they were like, we [00:35:05] can’t say it’s suicide. Like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean you cannot say it’s suicide? [00:35:10] Um. So I had like a major effect on me. [00:35:15] My mental health. And that’s when I started working seven days a week. So I used [00:35:20] my work as a coping mechanism because I was around people and I thought, you know what? If I’m [00:35:25] around a client, I can’t break down. I can’t, you know, it’s a show [00:35:30] sort of thing. I used to also teach classes back then. So I’d go into like my class [00:35:35] and be like, right, it’s a 45 minute show and I’m just going to put on a show and give these people the best time of their lives for the next [00:35:40] hour. And that’s just like me not thinking about everything. I did that for like [00:35:45] a very long period, and I remember I could feel I was like internally breaking down, breaking down, breaking [00:35:50] down. Like, how much longer can I go on like this? And then I spoke to a friend who [00:35:55] was I didn’t really understand my own mental health then. I didn’t really understand what [00:36:00] was going on in my mind. I didn’t realise, like, why I’m having these conversations with myself. [00:36:05] Almost in my brain. I feel like there’s two voices. And then my friend said, like, you’ve [00:36:10] literally right now you are in a very depressed state and you have to treat your [00:36:15] depression as a real illness.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And she [00:36:20] said something to me and it’s always stuck with me. If you had, like, broken your knee, you [00:36:25] would not be able to go to work. You’d have to call work up and you’d have to say, look, I’ve got a broken leg and I cannot come [00:36:30] to work. You’ve got a broken head right now. Like, mentally you’re not okay, and you need to [00:36:35] call work and just tell them that you need some time off. I didn’t do that because I [00:36:40] didn’t want to. I wanted to, like, continue. And I was just like. But then I’ll be at home and I’ll be with my mind and [00:36:45] like all of these things. So I continued working. And at the time, this [00:36:50] is something that like, I’ve never really publicly said. F off. But I [00:36:55] used to be addicted to weed. And I know that, like, some people are like, oh [00:37:00] yeah, it’s fine. Like you smoked a spliff every now and then, like it’s okay. No, I was addicted. [00:37:05] Like only now. Over the past, like few years, I’ve been like, right, I have an addiction. [00:37:10] I was an addict, but I was smoking it every day for a good part of like 8 to 10 [00:37:15] years, every single night. It was a way of me [00:37:20] numbing my brain, numbing my body, being able to sleep, [00:37:25] being able to sort of like that last portion of the day when you get home [00:37:30] and you get into bed and you’re like, everything goes through your mind.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I would numb that portion, [00:37:35] so I’d wake up and I’d go again. I was literally on autopilot. But that’s what they define as an [00:37:40] addiction, right? Like it’s a an escapism. Gabor Maté was talking about [00:37:45] someone from the Rolling Stones or some kind of famous band, and people [00:37:50] couldn’t understand why this person was a heroin addict. And Gabor Maté said that when [00:37:55] he heard an interview, they said to escape the reality of their mind, and that is sometimes [00:38:00] so deep for someone, and we don’t understand that. I also think weed is a really interesting thing [00:38:05] because I’ve never tried, as you know, any drugs or anything like that. But weed [00:38:10] for me is really interesting because one of the reasons I was really deterred from even trying it is because I actually [00:38:15] saw people’s minds completely go from weed, like from over excessive [00:38:20] smoking, like they became hyper paranoid, didn’t do anything with their life. I’m talking about ten years plus. [00:38:25] That really scared me to be honest, you know, and I really saw the impact of that. So it’s quite interesting because they’re talking [00:38:30] about legalising it in so many places.

Payman Langroudi: Is misuse of anything. A misuse of exercise can damage [00:38:35] you, but.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: When you’re addicted, it’s misuse, right. And I, I got to the point where I [00:38:40] was scared that I’d literally lose my whole business. I was like, I am smoking so much that if [00:38:45] I put one block in the wrong place, I could. Everything could collapse [00:38:50] and I could lose everything. And it was I actually, um, had to take myself. [00:38:55] I didn’t tell anyone. I got an Airbnb. Um, and I took myself away to, like, the countryside [00:39:00] with no access to weed and no access to anything. And that’s [00:39:05] how I started coming off it, as well as a lot of therapy and all of that. But that’s how I started, because I couldn’t [00:39:10] do it in my own environment because I associated my environment with smoking.

Payman Langroudi: Was your cousin [00:39:15] suicide? What started? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Um, it didn’t start it. [00:39:20] No. Exacerbated. Exacerbated it massively.

Payman Langroudi: And you know how anytime anyone [00:39:25] passes away, guilt seems to just come into even whichever way anyone passes away, [00:39:30] the question of should have spent more time with them or whatever. Yeah, but when it’s suicide, that becomes [00:39:35] particularly poignant. Did you have guilt?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Massively. Um, the Christmas [00:39:40] that I go to my cousin’s house every Christmas, we do Christmas at his house. That Christmas, before he [00:39:45] passed away, which was 15 days before he passed away. I didn’t go to Essex. He lives in Essex. [00:39:50] I couldn’t make it. And for [00:39:55] years I literally, like, had this massive guilt. I was like, I didn’t make it. Maybe [00:40:00] if I went because I actually, like, also go through my own mental health, maybe I would have seen something. [00:40:05] Maybe I would have like noticed something. And only when [00:40:10] I went through a lot of therapy and Rhona helped me a lot, [00:40:15] kind of working through all of the grief and the emotions, the guilt. Only [00:40:20] then I was like, I knew, like only now I can say, I know that regardless [00:40:25] of anything that was in his head, you know, like, and I’m not saying every single suicide case [00:40:30] is like this because I don’t think it is, but I know for a fact that [00:40:35] that was not a decision in a split second that was thought through. [00:40:40] There was conversations. We took him to the GP for depression. He was a doctor. [00:40:45] Yeah. He was four months away from finishing his PhD. He was younger [00:40:50] than me. He was 25. He had a brand new Audi sitting in the driveway. Hadn’t even insured it. Beautiful [00:40:55] girlfriend, beautiful girl.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: He’s half Ray and half English like. Stunning blue eyes. [00:41:00] Gorgeous, gorgeous boy. And no, like the life of the party, no one would have ever, ever known. [00:41:05] But they say, you know, like sometimes, like the loudest in the room. You [00:41:10] bring the most. Like I sent Payman this video. I’m sure you’ve seen it about those two men at a football game. [00:41:15] And they’re like in their like 50s. 60s. Yeah. And you see the one that’s like really happy and exciting, the [00:41:20] one that’s a little bit like grumpy. And in the end, it’s the one that seems the happiest. And that’s [00:41:25] why it’s like, you know, you never know what people are going through. Absolutely. You know you never know. And it’s like be kind [00:41:30] like I like that’s like the motto that I think is so, so, so important 100% [00:41:35] because you know, like, again, this is this wasn’t my cousin’s situation, [00:41:40] but let’s say if there was somebody and someone was like, they were on their way home and [00:41:45] they got spoken to in a certain way, or somebody said something that really got to them, like [00:41:50] they could then go and make decisions like that. And that’s why I really live by that as well. You’ve really got to be kind [00:41:55] because you just don’t know what people are going through.

Payman Langroudi: So I know, look, this is going to sound ridiculous, but in a way, [00:42:00] what good came of it did you do you now treasure people more?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I [00:42:05] think you do a lot of mental health work, especially for male suicide. Yes. Yeah. [00:42:10] So I work with, um, a few charities. I still want to do so much more though. I work [00:42:15] with a few charities, um, for around mental health. And I specifically want to go into helping [00:42:20] children in schools because I don’t think there’s the support or the resources. And I think that [00:42:25] it depends like what kind of family you come from. You might not be open to speaking about your problems [00:42:30] and your issues with your parents, and I think there needs to be a bit more support around that. I [00:42:35] also just like want to raise more awareness. And, you know, I try and raise awareness with charities. I [00:42:40] try and go on, um, like charitable events and things like that. But I think [00:42:45] the good that came from it is I became like I was already an empathetic person, but I [00:42:50] really became a lot more compassionate towards people. I really, really understood that [00:42:55] everyone is fucking fighting a battle of some sort.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve all got some [00:43:00] sort of mental illness.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But do you really think that. Yeah. Honestly. Because, [00:43:05] you know, it’s so funny, like I really stepped into the whole idea of like, vulnerability being [00:43:10] a superpower. Did you see my post today? No. Have you seen it? No. So I was quite nervous about [00:43:15] posting it because it was like these like Instagram is a highlight reel of your life [00:43:20] and I’m just going to show you my like, non-glamorous behind the scenes. And there’s basically like five photos [00:43:25] of like things that I’ve been struggling with and people have, like, responded in a way that I didn’t [00:43:30] imagine and like, even like, like really cool, like people that I didn’t like, [00:43:35] you know, like people that like archetypally like, have a perfect life. And they were like, thank you so much. Like, [00:43:40] this makes you, like, even better of a human being because I’m there, like, showing, like really uncool, [00:43:45] unsexy, unglamorous parts of me that affect my mental health.

Payman Langroudi: Like [00:43:50] what? What did.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You do? So I talked about like the fact that, like, for example, I, [00:43:55] you know, I lost my hair last year because of stress. And I show the kind of like bald patches [00:44:00] and how I think about it all the time. I showed the fact that I suddenly, like, developed [00:44:05] like acne last year as well because of the chronic fatigue that I often showed [00:44:10] a photo of, like me, like having a mental breakdown because I feel like I haven’t done enough, I haven’t achieved enough, showed [00:44:15] a photo of my body and was like, you know, I have body image anxiety [00:44:20] because people always tell me that, like, my body is flawed and like I just opened up and it was people [00:44:25] were like, this is so relatable. And I think the fact is, is that we just don’t have enough of these open [00:44:30] conversations, recognising that we all have our things that really, truly [00:44:35] affect us in different ways. Like, I’m not even there yet, but I think I imagine as well, like even like as [00:44:40] a father and a husband, as a wife and as a mother. Like there’s a whole other realm layer [00:44:45] to like your mental health, you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Your body image issues have really surprised [00:44:50] the hell out of me now.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Like, they know they have breakdowns. They have breakdowns too.

Payman Langroudi: It’s really [00:44:55] made me realise, like it’s made me see the world in a whole different way. The fact that you’ve got body image issues. Yeah, it [00:45:00] really has. And then also, you know, the conversations we were having about, uh, um, [00:45:05] talking to your younger self. Yeah. So I took a wrong turn on my [00:45:10] on my lime bike, and I ended up right outside the first school that we [00:45:15] went to when we came from revolution in Iran, we ran away from Iran, came to Phillips [00:45:20] and off Gloucester Road. Yeah. And, um, I saw this school and I just [00:45:25] went up the stairs, really, and I, and I, and I had a little conversation with little five year old. [00:45:30] Oh, my son and I never thought I had any sort of mental problem [00:45:35] with it. Yeah, but but it really helped me, you know, like, you know, like everything’s going to be okay because [00:45:40] I was like, you know, in a new country, new school, new language, new everything. Yeah. I love that interesting portrait. [00:45:45]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah. Uh, but. [00:45:50] So, Sana, I want to, um, also move on. So now we all know that you are a celebrity trainer. So the amazing [00:45:55] thing was, Payman that you asked, like, what is it about you? But she was. She’s one of those people that people [00:46:00] started talking about her in the industry. So she was getting approached, you know, I mean, it’s like you didn’t put that much effort, but [00:46:05] people were like, do you want to go and be the personal trainer on Disney? You know what I mean? Like things like, did land in your lap [00:46:10] a little bit because of the hard work and because of the reputation that you had. So there she was on the [00:46:15] set of Little Mermaid. Can you imagine with like the likes of Javier Bardem, Hayley like [00:46:20] the whole lot, travelling with them, filming the whole of, like, The Little Mermaid, you know? Incredible. So [00:46:25] do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So, um, yeah. Like [00:46:30] Rowena mentioned, I got approached for that job. Um, it was off a recommendation. They were actually, I think, looking for [00:46:35] a female strength trainer because the main, um, costs. She was quite young when she first started [00:46:40] the job. So it all happened really quickly. I got approached, I thought it was one [00:46:45] of these, like, spam emails that come through your Instagram.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Um, and then I went over [00:46:50] to the to Pinewood, had an interview with the producer, and it sort of really [00:46:55] happened overnight. I got an email that night like it was a Friday night, 5:00, [00:47:00] I got that email. And then by the time it was the Monday, I was like signing my contract. But [00:47:05] like that job specifically, I was in charge of eight cast members. [00:47:10] They weren’t all full time. Um, so you had sort of like the mermaid Prince. Um, and then you’ve got everyone [00:47:15] else who’s, um, around that it was a really big job. It was meant to be a nine month [00:47:20] job, ended up being a two year job because of Covid. So Covid happened on the first day of opening [00:47:25] production. But then we were quite lucky that after [00:47:30] the first sort of like Covid lockdown, production companies were one of the first to be able to open [00:47:35] back up. We were getting tested every day. It was like working at Disney, coming back home, seeing my [00:47:40] clients. It was just a mad, mad period of time. But I found the job [00:47:45] quite intense actually, and a lot of people think they’re always like, oh, tell us all about Disney and like, [00:47:50] tell us about, you know, training all of these stars.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I think, um, it’s a lot more glamorised [00:47:55] than it is to put it quite like you hated it. I remember I had a really tough time. [00:48:00] I was solely in charge of the training, the nutrition, [00:48:05] and I had sort of like someone who was above me, [00:48:10] sort of like playing to the power trips of the way things work. And [00:48:15] I started to feel really uncomfortable in the position that I was within. I had [00:48:20] someone who was older, male, had a bit more power than me, constantly around me. And [00:48:25] um, the long and short of it is that it was a big harassment case and [00:48:30] sexual assault case, and I’ve also never spoken about this publicly [00:48:35] again. Now I can, because everything has been sort of dealt with and I’ve [00:48:40] worked through it and I’ve come to a place of like acceptance with it. But it had such [00:48:45] a huge impact on my confidence on just me as a person. I [00:48:50] became like a shell of myself there. Like when I look back now at my time there, it [00:48:55] I can’t, I don’t even recognise the person that was there. I yeah, [00:49:00] I found it really difficult. Basically the production, um, the production guys asked me to write [00:49:05] out a document of evidence and things, and it was like a 26 page document that [00:49:10] my best friend helped me with.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: It was all writing like it had links to like a Dropbox for any [00:49:15] imagery. So there was a lot, a lot there. I handed that in on the Friday, and [00:49:20] um, on the Saturday I got a call from the production team saying [00:49:25] that, oh my God, we can’t believe you were kind of like going through all of this. And we can’t believe you’ve not said [00:49:30] anything until now. And we’re really, really sorry. And we’re going to fire him straight away. Now [00:49:35] looking back at the situation, firing him without telling him what he’s done, [00:49:40] without telling any other department. What he’s done was just a way to sweep it under the carpet [00:49:45] and shut me up, and the effect that it had on me. I was having physical panic [00:49:50] attacks on set. The nurse who was on set had to take me into like an ambulance to get [00:49:55] my ECG done and everything. They put me on antidepressants, the doctor on [00:50:00] Disney, um, the doctor on set, he gave me Xanax. [00:50:05] He gave me all of these drugs because I literally couldn’t go to work without being in, [00:50:10] like, such a high state of anxiety and panic.

Payman Langroudi: Want to talk about what was actually [00:50:15] happening.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So it was, um, sexual harassment [00:50:20] and. Well, Payman means was it like messages? Was he trying it on set? [00:50:25] Was it okay? So it was verbal in person as well as messages as well as pictures [00:50:30] as well as situations of making me feel really, really uncomfortable, like [00:50:35] just a very small example. So we don’t get into everything. I was single [00:50:40] for like four years at the time. He knew I was single for four years, and he would say to me things [00:50:45] like, oh, so you’re single, so how do you like sort yourself out? Do you just like [00:50:50] have somebody you call or do you sit inappropriate sexual questions like made me feel [00:50:55] very uncomfortable in that position. But I also didn’t know what to do. I was like, this is my [00:51:00] first film job. This is somebody of higher power than me, who also has [00:51:05] a relationship with the people higher than him as well. Like I don’t have that relationship with those people. I [00:51:10] am the only female on set like in my department. I didn’t know how to deal with it [00:51:15] even when I. The only reason I went to production in the end was because I [00:51:20] had a panic attack. The nurse saw me and the nurse said, you have to go to HR. And then [00:51:25] even when I went to HR, I could tell HR didn’t believe me when I was just verbally [00:51:30] explaining everything. That’s why they asked me for all this evidence. And I had a panic attack in the room and the [00:51:35] lady didn’t know what to do. She was like, do you want to put your head out the window? And I was like, hyperventilating. [00:51:40] It was just a really tricky situation. And off the back of that, [00:51:45] what happened was I felt like I was never meant to be in that job. I felt like I. She [00:51:50] felt it was your fault. Yeah. I felt like it was a crazy thing.

Payman Langroudi: Is, on the outside, anyone would think [00:51:55] that’s the pinnacle of your career. Disney movie set. You know, famous people. [00:52:00] Yeah. But actually on the inside, that was one of the hardest moments of your life.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: The hardest.

Payman Langroudi: What do [00:52:05] you think was going through his head? Do you think he understood?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think.

Payman Langroudi: It was inadvertent, like he thought [00:52:10] he was having a go, like.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I’m not entirely sure. Um. [00:52:15] Like it makes my skin crawl. Thinking about it now. Yeah, but [00:52:20] I think. I don’t think I’m the first person that he’s had that behaviour [00:52:25] with, because he has said stories in front of me about his other colleagues, and [00:52:30] that makes me worry for the future people that he also works with, [00:52:35] even if he doesn’t think he’s like fully putting himself onto somebody, I think. Comments. [00:52:40] I think just making people feel uncomfortable and make using your power as a way [00:52:45] to silence them is not appropriate. Um. And [00:52:50] that’s why I was like, after the whole situation, I was so annoyed that the production team didn’t [00:52:55] tell anybody. He’ll get hired again, I think. This I think this poses [00:53:00] a very important question. And I think it’s, you know, important to get like a male perspective. [00:53:05] The MeToo movement has completely changed the narrative [00:53:10] around a lot of things, and it has posed historical questions. So what I mean by that [00:53:15] is, is that until really the Harvey Weinstein thing came along, there were so many [00:53:20] women that came forward and said, this has happened. But then obviously we [00:53:25] now have people that said, well, hang on a second, look, let’s look at Russell Brand. Right? Like people [00:53:30] are like, I thought it was okay then. And now I can speak up and say it wasn’t okay, [00:53:35] you know? And then there’s all this stuff about people questioning women, you know, for their judgement, [00:53:40] etc. and I think it’s a really like we’re living in an interesting [00:53:45] time because there are so many disbelievers.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And what I mean by [00:53:50] that is, is that there are a lot of people would say the women are lying, and there’s a lot of people that don’t also [00:53:55] allow for space for the woman to be correct or incorrect. So do you know [00:54:00] what I mean by that? You know, for example, if you know, like if a male [00:54:05] has done something wrong, absolutely, he should be held accountable. But there might be the one [00:54:10] case where a woman is trying it. Do you see what I mean? For financial [00:54:15] reasons, let’s just say, or something like that. But I think it’s an interesting time because [00:54:20] we are not allowing any room for anything. And like you said, we’ve [00:54:25] got extreme cases where Disney should have dealt with it but didn’t want any drama. But [00:54:30] people just don’t want to look into stuff. And I think we don’t like we don’t. We’re not [00:54:35] like getting any further like closer to like solving these issues. Okay. So I’ve actually got a question for you [00:54:40] as a male, because I did like when I was going through that initially [00:54:45] I was just telling my best friend she was like, Sana, this is sexual harassment. I didn’t know it was sexual harassment. [00:54:50] I didn’t know it was a thing. Do you? Where do you draw the line [00:54:55] of? Falcon playfully with your colleague. Exactly. [00:55:00] Or sexual harassment? Yeah. What do you think? You have a lot of females.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult to know, isn’t it? That’s [00:55:05] what I’m saying, that I wonder whether this guy knew or not.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Do you think you [00:55:10] would know?

Payman Langroudi: Like, was it a power play or do you think.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: He would know, though, as you have a lot of young females here, do you think, [00:55:15] you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: I hope so, I hope so, but, you know, I don’t know because [00:55:20] I wasn’t there.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think like in your.

Payman Langroudi: Situation, I wasn’t there.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Photos of themselves. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is [00:55:25] that what happened? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Like I think then then he knows clearly. I mean, I saw this [00:55:30] the other day and I just pulled it up to read it out because I think it’s it’s quite. Telling [00:55:35] get harassed. It’s only banter. Wary of strange men. Uptight, [00:55:40] wary of familiar men. Paranoid. Friendly with guys. A slut. Trusting of guys. [00:55:45] Stupid. Report a liar. Don’t report part of the problem. Dress up asking [00:55:50] for it. Dress down ugly and lazy. When is it not our fault? That’s quite obviously [00:55:55] like yeah, and I’d love to know what you hear when you hear that.

Payman Langroudi: We’ve [00:56:00] had this this debate.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Many.

Payman Langroudi: Times. Yeah. Insomuch as I just think it’s [00:56:05] right now. It’s the best time ever to be a woman. Yeah. Women are more empowered, [00:56:10] more, more financially empowered, got more going on, [00:56:15] more rights, more everything than they’ve ever had before. And yet, if you read [00:56:20] the narrative, the narrative. Maybe it’s because women are now finally empowered [00:56:25] that they can finally say these things. Yeah. At the same time, at the same time, I [00:56:30] only figured out, I mean, it took me 48 years to figure out that it [00:56:35] was. My daughter had to tell me that all women every day feel threatened. Yeah, [00:56:40] I didn’t know that. I did not know that. Every day there’s a as [00:56:45] as as she’s walking down a road on her own. She constantly has to look around. [00:56:50] How old? 14. 13. So I mean, the. That [00:56:55] certainly isn’t the case for a man. Yeah. That doesn’t every day I don’t feel threatened. Yeah. [00:57:00] So what I’m saying is the conversation needs to be had. People need to [00:57:05] say these things because I didn’t know this until I was 48. So people need to hear these things at the [00:57:10] same time. Right here, right now is the best time in history to be a woman.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: What [00:57:15] do you hear when you hear that? When I hear that passage specifically. [00:57:20] Regardless. Like we’re never going to get it right [00:57:25] or always be blamed to an extent. Do you know what you know? And I really do think [00:57:30] that you could.

Payman Langroudi: Write a similar thing for me.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think, okay, listen, I agree [00:57:35] that obviously in the Western world we do have more rights. We have this debate over and over again. You heard it with the Sareeta [00:57:40] podcast. Like we go over and over and over again. Obviously, for a woman in Afghanistan [00:57:45] or Iran, life is a lot harder than a woman here.

Payman Langroudi: I hear you or a woman here five years ago, I hear you. But [00:57:50] ten years ago.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. But also, I still think that we’ve got a long way to go. Like [00:57:55] we said, even though you don’t believe it. Gender pay gap. Gap is a thing. The orgasm gap is [00:58:00] a thing. Like we’ve had enough people. Orgasm gap I believe. So I don’t.

Payman Langroudi: Believe in the gender [00:58:05] pay gap. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think it’s a thing. It’s a thing like go argue with okay, I think it is a thing. [00:58:10] It might be different from industry to industry, but it’s a thing. Yeah, but it’s still a thing. But but my point is, [00:58:15] is that I still feel Sana and I went for coffee before we met you, and I was about [00:58:20] to tell us, and I can tell you because we didn’t have time to do it. She was like, how do you feel about the next stage of your life? And I was like, [00:58:25] do you know what I was like? I have some like, weird, kind of like anxiety about getting older at the [00:58:30] moment. I was like, I’ve never. It was weird because when everyone told me I was going to get like ugly [00:58:35] and old in my 30s, I felt more better than ever. I told, like, I [00:58:40] even showed Ahmed a picture of me in my 20. He was like, you look, Moschino. Moschino in Arabic means like miskeen. Like, you [00:58:45] know, like poor little thing. I was like, I look better now. But then, like at this stage I just feel [00:58:50] like this anxiety.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I went for dinner with a friend yesterday and he was like, oh, you know, we were [00:58:55] talking about like, marriage and kids and he’s quite a lot like younger and stuff. And he was like, you know, the thing is, like, [00:59:00] if you ever broke up with your partner, you would never get anyone as hot [00:59:05] or young as him. And I was just like, that’s such a mean thing to say. But [00:59:10] also at the same time, it’s the reality of being an older woman. That’s what I feel. Do [00:59:15] you see what I mean? Are you older than him? No, but I’m saying, okay, he’s 40. Right? But let’s say, like, things [00:59:20] go tits up, right? You never know. Like, hopefully not touch wood. Okay. But let’s say that I [00:59:25] think he could easily find a woman that’s, like, ten years younger. Sure. Of course. Right. He’s like a good looking [00:59:30] guy, works in the city, good job, etc.. He ticks the boxes. Yeah. Do you think I could find [00:59:35] someone decent now that I’m 37? I know that’s like. I’m sorry. I’m just being totally, like, vulnerable. I’m not [00:59:40] sure. I think you could.

Payman Langroudi: I think you could, but. 42. No. Huh?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: 42. No. [00:59:45] Si si si si si.

Payman Langroudi: I’m joking.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Do you think that I do you [00:59:50] think you could be eligible? Men would go for a woman that is like 37. Do you see what I mean? [00:59:55]

Payman Langroudi: Sure, sure. Some men like, uh, what they call cougars. Yeah, cougars.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Am I a cougar? To [01:00:00] be fair, though, I always say Amal Clooney met George when she was 38. [01:00:05]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, I think you could. I do think that obviously [01:00:10] it is a lot easier for a man to find somebody decent [01:00:15] at that age than it is for a woman, just because, like, obviously, men want a young, pretty wife. [01:00:20]

Payman Langroudi: What do women want?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think women want different things from a primal [01:00:25] point of view and from a like so. I always have this conversation with Ella. Actually, I [01:00:30] was really interested. You read Mating in Captivity, haven’t, you know? So that’s Esther I haven’t, [01:00:35] but she was we were talking about it that biologically, Lex Fridman talks about this in one of [01:00:40] his podcasts. Biologically, what women and men want from a reproduction point of view is different. [01:00:45] Obviously, men naturally will gravitate towards fertility, as in like from that hormonal like. I want [01:00:50] someone that can produce loads of children. Men will go for someone with a T shaped body because [01:00:55] it’s more about strength and that I want someone to give me. Babies are going to be big and strong. In [01:01:00] fact, I told you this stat before. Apparently the reason why Vikings are so big is because all of the Viking [01:01:05] men used to rape the big, broad women back in the day because they [01:01:10] wanted to produce big, strong men like as children’s offspring. So on a primal level. But as [01:01:15] we’ve grown and adapted and because our environments aren’t just about reproduction and survival, we [01:01:20] look for different things. So a woman would typically look for safety, security, financial [01:01:25] as well, like provision to some degree, some women not all. So there are all these different elements. And [01:01:30] then obviously a man will be looking for something different, you know. So I think it’s very different to.

Payman Langroudi: Both financially [01:01:35] independent women. That’s a new thing isn’t it, that financially [01:01:40] lots and lots of financially independent women have changed [01:01:45] that balance of power, if you like, where money was used as a as a as a tool. [01:01:50]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think there’s still a lot of women that aren’t like us.

Payman Langroudi: But I know many, [01:01:55] many financial independent women now.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Okay, I know a lot of financial independent women, but [01:02:00] even those financially independent women, I think they still want those same things in a guy that they did. [01:02:05] If they weren’t like the things that Rhona just mentioned, the security, the safety, the even [01:02:10] from a financial perspective, even if they are financially secure.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about being in a relationship [01:02:15] where you’re making loads more money than the man?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You have dated guys where you’ve made more than [01:02:20] them. Yeah, I don’t mind it as such. As long as he is not like prancing [01:02:25] off me or doing absolutely nothing with his life. Like I find you.

Payman Langroudi: Find you, find. [01:02:30]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Ambition, attraction really attractive. Really, really. I wouldn’t want to financially support, man. Just putting it out [01:02:35] there.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t mean support. I mean you could do. I don’t want to.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Support a man I support, not support like scrub [01:02:40] I don’t want I don’t see myself.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s say, let’s say you fall in love with a guy [01:02:45] who earns half what you’re earning. You earn a lot of money. Yeah. So someone who earns half what you’re earning because could be a guy working [01:02:50] in the city. Someone. Someone successful person. Yeah. So it could be fine.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That’s fine. But [01:02:55] what I’m saying is that in a relationship where the woman earns more than the man, [01:03:00] are the dynamics different?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think so, but I also have a friend of mine. She [01:03:05] shall not, shall not be named. She has exponential wealth, as in, like beyond [01:03:10] anyone that you know, like beyond on another level. And she always chooses men that [01:03:15] earn substantially less than her. Like substantially less. Yeah. Because I also think she enjoys [01:03:20] that money. Yeah. But also I think that she enjoys that to some degree because she can [01:03:25] control it. Do you see? I mean, it’s like every time she split up with a partner, it’s like, get out of my house. She’s good. [01:03:30] She can move on to the next. You see, I think in a way she’s using.

Payman Langroudi: Money as a tool.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I think [01:03:35] so, yeah. And I think that, like, you know, she’s the kind of person that would probably, like, end [01:03:40] up like giving, like contributing to her own engagement ring. Do you know what I [01:03:45] mean? That kind of thing. Because she can. But like, that’s a really rare case. Like I find that really [01:03:50] stressful. Then there’s other people, like I have another girlfriend. Her her [01:03:55] highest value is the way a man looks. So she is obsessed with like, an arm candy [01:04:00] guy. And I’m sitting there thinking, but he doesn’t have X, Y, and Z, which is important to me. So I think it’s extremely [01:04:05] personal. But I also think in London, like you said, there is an abundance of successful [01:04:10] women with a lot of money. I used to be part of this dating agency. Have you ever heard of it? Grey and [01:04:15] Farrah? No. Super interesting. So one of my friends, when I was at 30, she [01:04:20] ended up dating the guy from the owns Moneysupermarket.com. [01:04:25] Right. So this is an agency for very high end. Yeah, but their caveat is [01:04:30] they don’t want escort type girls and the woman has to be earning X amount. Do you understand? [01:04:35] Because the men don’t want to feel like. The men don’t want to feel like, yeah, it’s all about the money. [01:04:40] So I was like, cool. Like I decided to join. It wasn’t right for me because at the time [01:04:45] I was in a different stage of my life and I was like, I had to go for these, like, dates. So I’d been made to sit for like six [01:04:50] hours and Scott’s with someone that was like 15 years older than me. And I was like, not at that stage in my life. [01:04:55] But anyways, the point is, is that when you go on to the review, why did you why did you join it? [01:05:00]

Payman Langroudi: Because you were looking for a mate.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: And I was like, I really didn’t want to do like I wanted something that was super vetted. [01:05:05] So I basically did that and dry up. That’s. Yeah, exactly. Have you ever done Tinder? [01:05:10] No. Have you? Have I what? Tinder. Tinder? I went on it for one day and [01:05:15] actually never like matched with anybody. But the one person I saw on it is my now [01:05:20] boyfriend. Oh, really? Did you see him on it?

Payman Langroudi: But you [01:05:25] dated on it? No, you just saw him there.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: I saw him, and the reason why I was on Tinder was because [01:05:30] I hadn’t dated him 4 or 5 years. And then the clients that I was with abroad [01:05:35] were like, right, we’re just going to open up. I was in Barbados at the time. We’re just going to make you a Tinder. I was like, okay, whatever. [01:05:40] Um, and then saw him, but then saw Primrose Hill as his location and I was like, nah, [01:05:45] too close to home and swiped no. And then she met him organically. Met him that night in Barbados [01:05:50] randomly. And then I was like, oh, is your name Nick? And [01:05:55] he was like, yeah. I was like, oh my God. I swiped no to you on Tinder yesterday and [01:06:00] now he’s my boyfriend. But the point is, is when you go on the, um, the [01:06:05] story about Graham Farrow’s, when you go on the Google reviews, it’s properly [01:06:10] vexed women that are like, I pay so much. This is a joke. This [01:06:15] is like a joke, kind of like dating agencies and these are high net worth women. So I think it’s like [01:06:20] a really tricky spot for high net worth women for them to like, meet [01:06:25] men and typically do those high net worth men want to be with those kinds of women? [01:06:30] I don’t know, like the dates that I went on.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: They all wanted to pursue it further, but I was like, I [01:06:35] just wasn’t vibing it or wasn’t feeling it, but it’s just quite interesting. I think there’s two types of women. If [01:06:40] you are like, let’s say you’ve got so much money and you’re really high net worth, I think you either know [01:06:45] you have those expectations of like, okay, I know I am worth something and [01:06:50] I know that I’m going to find somebody who’s either a lot younger than me, hasn’t got a stable job, [01:06:55] and I will be supporting them to an extent, or I’m going to try and find somebody on my actual level, [01:07:00] and then they grow together that way. So I think it just depends on what you want in that [01:07:05] situation. Some women, I think, will really love having a younger partner and really like supporting them. I think [01:07:10] they’d love it. So, Sana, I want to, um, ask [01:07:15] you a little bit now. You’ve obviously gone through a massive change. Recently in your life where [01:07:20] you decided you had to make changes you’ve gone from seeing. I used to say to you, got to change something. These 10 to [01:07:25] 12 clients you’ve seen every day for seven days a week, it wasn’t conducive to your mental health.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: You experienced [01:07:30] a lot of like physical and mental pain. So tell us what you did to change it. And [01:07:35] about the new exciting thing that’s out. So yeah, I. I [01:07:40] found it really difficult to transition from being a full time pet to what I do now. [01:07:45] But basically recently I took on two coaches, so I have two coaches working for me. They [01:07:50] now train my clients for me in the gym. I’m no longer, um, based there at the gym. I [01:07:55] have an online business now as well. I just wanted to make. My [01:08:00] issue with my business was I have a super inaccessible business. I’m [01:08:05] a 1 to 1 PT, I charge high end rates. They are for a certain demographic of people and it’s just not [01:08:10] accessible for everybody. So I wanted to make a product that is more accessible both financially, geographically, [01:08:15] geographically and something that actually had a bit of value in it, you know? Um, [01:08:20] so I’ve been working for the past year on an app and we launched [01:08:25] literally last week. Thank you. So the app is basically training, [01:08:30] nutrition and education. So my whole concept with that app is to be able [01:08:35] to bridge the gap between 1 to 1 PT and the online world, because I find some of the online [01:08:40] world is super vague and it’s like, here’s your program, here’s your training session, go get on with it. [01:08:45]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: They don’t really learn anything in that process. They’re constantly relying on you as a coach [01:08:50] and the 1 to 1. Like I said, it’s for a certain type of person to train 3 or 4 times a week and pay £100. [01:08:55] Plus, it’s not feasible for everybody. So, uh, my main point of [01:09:00] this app is to educate people. So we have it’s almost like a hub where [01:09:05] we talk through everything in terms of training, training terms, rest sets, [01:09:10] tempo, um, how you should be training, the intensity you’re training at. And then we’ve got the same for the, um, [01:09:15] nutrition side of things. A lot of education. We have a nutritionist and a gut health [01:09:20] specialist coming on board. We have a hit coach on there, Yasmin Garcia. [01:09:25] Um, and we have a mental health coach on there, Lauren White, who [01:09:30] you know as well. So I’m trying to sort of bridge the gap, like I said, between the 1 to [01:09:35] 1 coaching and the online world. Give the client as much support without the access [01:09:40] to me as a coach. So is there what’s it called? Is there 1.

Payman Langroudi: To 1 support on the app [01:09:45] as well, or is it on the app?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: It’s content on the on the app is just content. But what we do is we [01:09:50] listen to the feedback of the users. And if there’s any specific questions, we what was the process [01:09:55] of doing the app? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Was it was it a difficult process?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Oh my god. So much more difficult than I thought. [01:10:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And expensive.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Expensive and I also so I had [01:10:05] I’ve got a friend in the industry who has a very successful app. Um, she [01:10:10] does incredibly well on it. And like, like we said earlier, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. So [01:10:15] I literally just messaged her one day and I was like, babe, can we meet for dinner? I want to, I want to pick your brain about [01:10:20] your app and how you sort of like, did what you did. Because my problem with bringing something mass [01:10:25] to the market is I don’t totally agree with it being so vague and [01:10:30] like not one size fits all sort of thing. Yeah. Um, so I sort of like, picked her brain. [01:10:35] She was super, super helpful and not like, gatekeeping any of her tips and tricks. [01:10:40] So she kind of like told me who her contacts were, etc. helped me out a little bit. And, [01:10:45] um, the process was a lot of coding and understanding the backend of a [01:10:50] tech business. Um, so I write the programs myself. I [01:10:55] then have to put them into certain coded things on an Excel spreadsheet. I then [01:11:00] send that over to the tech team. They then input that on the back end of the app. I’m trying to sort of [01:11:05] learn that side of things myself a little bit more, because then I have more access to update things when [01:11:10] and how I want. But yeah, it was a super long process. I did not think, well done. Honestly, I’ve [01:11:15] never ever thought that it would take as long as it did. And content is the bane of my life. [01:11:20] Um, content, like people like say. And it’s like, you really enjoy it though. It’s like it’s such an investment. I was exhausted [01:11:25] yesterday. Exhausted. And I had my TikTok girl come. She’s been on the podcast and [01:11:30] she gets some really good advice. Yeah. Do you know I had one? Yeah. She’s [01:11:35] amazing. Yeah. And she takes the stress out like we filmed for three hours yesterday and it’s done for the [01:11:40] month.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got to hand it to you, man. The amount of content you’re putting out. Yeah, but.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: But but [01:11:45] like, listen, I’m a different platforms, but like, Ellie does my TikTok, Chelsea Stewart [01:11:50] does my, um, my Instagram like the branding and like the way that, [01:11:55] like, you know, that they like she’s got a team and it’s an investment that costs me money, [01:12:00] Prav costs me money, all that stuff. And people don’t realise. They think, you [01:12:05] know, it falls out of the sky. They’re like, oh, she actually a busy dentist to be doing all of this. But I made a conscious decision. [01:12:10] Three clinical days. The rest is brand building. And the brand building is what keeps [01:12:15] the clinic going. Do you see what I mean? You know, but I think also it comes from you having a certain vision in your head, [01:12:20] like you’ve got a vision of what you’re going to achieve with, like your Instagram, your TikTok, your, you know, whatever it is. [01:12:25] And I have imposter syndrome. Like I literally call up Shivani and go, I’m shit, I’m not growing. You [01:12:30] got 100 K followers in six months. I’ve only grown by like five K followers. [01:12:35] Like why aren’t I growing? Is my content crap?

Payman Langroudi: And then to have the humility, to have the humility. Start [01:12:40] TikTok at zero when you are already at 90,000. Yeah, it’s [01:12:45] took a lot of people wouldn’t have had that humility. Yeah. And now you know, now, as you can see, it’s like I can see it’s kind of [01:12:50] it’s kind of working out. The fact that he started TikTok was a good idea. Yeah, that takes a degree of humility. [01:12:55]

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Totally. But yeah, but it’s patience and persistence. And I was just saying to you, like, obviously [01:13:00] Shauna was like, it’s amazing that Payman has got 10,000 subscribers, you know, for Dental [01:13:05] Leaders, it’s incredible. It’s incredible. But also, I said to him, I was like, I’m so happy about my movies. And he was [01:13:10] like, Brennan, we’ve only been doing this for like ten months or 11 months.

Payman Langroudi: Whatever it is, whether it’s getting fit, [01:13:15] whether it’s doing TikTok is turning up, isn’t it?

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: It’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Consistency.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Thing. [01:13:20] Exactly. And that and that’s the thing, you know, consistency will get you to places that motivation [01:13:25] can’t do. You see what I mean? And it’s just about showing up. Yeah. Sauna. Love you so much [01:13:30] guys. Please check out the app. I’m not just saying everyone always says the name.

Payman Langroudi: Of the app.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: So it’s the SSC app. [01:13:35] Yes, it’s SS coaching, SS coaching and for those as well, for those that can’t afford, [01:13:40] you know, personal training. As I said, sauna would have put her heart and soul into it. She [01:13:45] is amazing. She changed my life, my body. Um, and you know, [01:13:50] a lot of dentists would also advocate for her because about 100 dentists started training with her because of me. What [01:13:55] do you charge? What do you charge.

Payman Langroudi: For one, 1.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: To 1? Um, 1 to 1 is £150. And then my, my [01:14:00] two coaches are slightly less than that. They’re on around 140, which obviously I know is not [01:14:05] accessible for everybody. Right. Why are you thinking to join? No, no.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:14:10] I mean, you could charge twice as much and have half the number of people. [01:14:15] Is that is that how.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: She does have some how it works. You could and I like [01:14:20] there’s still a cap. Let’s say I charge £500 an hour and I’m working for five [01:14:25] hours a day. That is still a cap. I know, and it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Like being a dentist.

Rhona Eskander/Sana Shirvani: Yeah, [01:14:30] you’re you’re literally exchanging your time for money. Right. And how much does the app. So the app [01:14:35] is £29.99 a month. Oh cool. Amazing. So massive difference. Amazing. And thank [01:14:40] you. So thank you guys for having me. It was amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Take care soon okay. [01:14:45] Bye bye.