This episode of Mind Movers features an intimate conversation with renowned dentist Nilesh Parmar. The discussion delves into Nilesh’s personal life and professional journey, exploring themes of success, relationships, and mental health in the dental profession.
The conversation offers a candid look at the personal side of a successful professional, highlighting the importance of balancing career achievements with personal growth and meaningful relationships. It also touches on broader issues affecting the dental profession, including mental health, professional conduct, and the challenges of maintaining a public image.
Enjoy!
In This Episode
00:02:05 – Public Vs private life
00:13:35 – Landmark Forum
00:15:50 – Relationships and culture
00:21:25 – Formative experiences
00:32:25 – Male vulnerability
00:37:35 – Marriage
00:49:55 – Darkest moment
00:52:25 – Bullying and dentistry
01:00:45 – Political ambitions
01:03:25 – Karma and charity
About Nilesh Parmar
Nilesh Parmar is an implant and cosmetic dentist, author, mentor, and media personality.
Nilesh Parmar: And it was for me. It was just a realisation that you’ve focussed so much on career [00:00:05] and the things. When I talk to a lot of younger people and I mentor now as well, one [00:00:10] of the things I say is look, don’t lose sight of what the end goal is and what you want from your life. Sit down and write [00:00:15] it down. What do you want from your life? It’s so easy to get tied up in the kind of Instagram realities [00:00:20] that I want. Private jets and I want to go this. I want to do car tours and all this sort of stuff. [00:00:25] But then you can only do that for so long. You need to develop those deep, meaningful [00:00:30] connections. You can’t just sacrifice everything for that. [00:00:35] You need to have family. You need to put effort into relationships. And that was something that I didn’t learn [00:00:40] until probably in the last five years.
[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is mind movers moving the conversation [00:00:55] forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your [00:01:00] hosts Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.
Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:05] gives me great pleasure to welcome Nils Palmer onto [00:01:10] Mind Movers. We’ve had Nilesh on Dental Leaders. Um, but fresh [00:01:15] off his interview with Steven Bartlett. Nilesh, thanks for coming in. Firstly, [00:01:20] pleasure and it’s much more intimate when you’re actually in the same room. Um. [00:01:25] My idea. Yeah, your. When someone, when someone looks at your life [00:01:30] from the outside. On paper, it does look delicious. Racing [00:01:35] cars, multiple degrees, practice owner, implantologists, [00:01:40] all of that. But we’re going to go now is what you’re struggling [00:01:45] with right now.
Nilesh Parmar: Thank you for the introduction. That’s very nice. And it’s a really good question. I love the [00:01:50] way you just go straight into it, you know. Um, what am I struggling with at the moment? You know, the [00:01:55] thing is the the life you see online, I think we all know that isn’t [00:02:00] always the reality, right? It’s the highlights. It’s not everything else that goes on behind closed doors. And I think [00:02:05] we almost have this issue of not sharing, kind of like the bad stuff that happens for me. Touch [00:02:10] wood career has been good. You know what I do I find very easy. [00:02:15] I don’t find it difficult. It doesn’t stress me out. I don’t find it challenging. If now that I’m, [00:02:20] I hate to say it, 42 going on 43 in a few months, 42.
Payman Langroudi: Going on 17. [00:02:25]
Nilesh Parmar: Acting like a 17 year old is Asian. Don’t raisin Asian, [00:02:30] don’t race. Exactly, I like that. Yeah, I knew I’d get some one liners from this is [00:02:35] is that. Now. I started doing my will recently. [00:02:40] And it actually, it’s really strange to see your life [00:02:45] down on paper. Like every asset, everything you have, just down on paper, it’s it’s quite [00:02:50] a humbling experience. And then when the solicitor who you’re doing it with says, [00:02:55] okay, so, um, have you got a wife? And you go, no. He goes, okay, um, [00:03:00] I’ve got a girlfriend. And you go, no, he goes, children, partner? No. Ex-wife. No. Do you [00:03:05] have anyone to leave this stuff to? And I said, yeah, my sisters and my nephew. And he goes, okay. He goes, oh, that’s really [00:03:10] unusual. And I go, why? He goes, someone in your position who’s amassed wealth [00:03:15] usually has a partner, usually has someone, and you don’t have anyone. And that [00:03:20] kind of hit me. That really, really hit me. I was like, shit. All these years I’ve been working my ass off. [00:03:25] And it was. And it wasn’t the pursuit of happiness. It was the happiness I got from the pursuit. [00:03:30] It was just the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And then you sit down and you think, if I met [00:03:35] someone now, and if I got married, let’s say in 3 or 4 years time and [00:03:40] we had kids, would I see my grandkids, like, would I be alive? Or [00:03:45] would I be alive to see my grandkids go to school or do like their first fun run or something? [00:03:50] And I think that was something that I struggled with. It was that realisation of, you’ve done so [00:03:55] much, but also you’ve done so little, like, what’s your legacy? And that’s something that kept popping up [00:04:00] in my head is what’s your legacy?
Rhona Eskander: I think a couple of things from what you’ve just said really resonate in a [00:04:05] way, and I think it’s quite refreshing for a man to be speaking about these things. The reason why I say this, [00:04:10] Payman and I talk about this often, is that women often talk about the biological clock, so you often [00:04:15] hear them panicking about children, recognising that they have a finite time. But what I’ve come to recognise [00:04:20] is, is that men also don’t necessarily want to be really old dads, which is pretty much what you’re saying. [00:04:25] I want children, but I also want to potentially live to see my grandchildren. And I think that’s [00:04:30] something that we don’t hear men talk about often enough, and we just assume, you know, if you’re a good looking, successful [00:04:35] guy who’s 50, you’re going to go for a 35 year old woman. That’s fine. But as you said, when your kid’s ten, [00:04:40] you’re 60 and your kid’s 20, you’re 70. And sure, we’re living a lot longer, etc., [00:04:45] etc. but I think, you know, there is something to be said for that one pattern, though, I [00:04:50] think that I’ve noticed is that the older you get, the more picky that you become. Because [00:04:55] also I feel that your wisdom allows you to become more picky about partners. [00:05:00] I was having dinner with a friend yesterday, and we were having a little bit of a catch up about our university friends. [00:05:05]
Rhona Eskander: They got married when they were 2728, and surely ten years later [00:05:10] the problem starts showing up the cracks. You know, I’m like, how’s this couple doing? Oh [00:05:15] well, he works all the time and he’s never in the house and he’s been coming home at 3 a.m. and she’s just looking after the kids. [00:05:20] And when I see them together in the kitchen, it’s not even as if they like each other anymore. And then there’s another [00:05:25] couple on the verge of divorce. Because the conflict in the Middle East, [00:05:30] she’s Jewish, she’s Muslim, has driven them apart. Yeah. And you know what I think to myself, I think, you know, [00:05:35] there’s two sides to every story. I think you got young Payman. You got married young as well. So be interesting to hear your point [00:05:40] of view. But I think there’s two sides to this, right? Because if you have waited [00:05:45] till later on, which includes me and you, to settle down, you [00:05:50] develop language and wisdom that may help your future relationship. You know, [00:05:55] and I think that that’s a healthy thing because then you know how to relate to them. Make sure that you’re [00:06:00] not triggering them. You have the language and the communication basically around this kind of stuff. So [00:06:05] I think, you know, it can work both ways. You know.
Nilesh Parmar: Conversely, I think you also [00:06:10] become very set in your ways and you become very much a creature of habit, especially men. I think we’re very [00:06:15] much like, right, I do this, and especially for me, I’m so regimented in everything I do, I find [00:06:20] great happiness in getting up and knowing that my day is planned. I’ve got this, this, this and this, and in my head I’ll have timings [00:06:25] for certain things, not exact timings, but timings. So I’ve never lived with [00:06:30] a woman, I’ve never lived with a girlfriend or anything like that I’ve lived with. Why? Um, it’s a good [00:06:35] question. For a long time, especially when I was studying, I used to [00:06:40] see my girlfriend at the weekends. It’d be like Friday night, Saturday night. [00:06:45] And then she was gone, and then I’d reboot. And on a Monday I was back to work. So I had all these [00:06:50] work things that I wanted to do, all these things that I wanted to achieve, and the girlfriend just seemed like [00:06:55] a weekend sort of thing. I wasn’t willing to commit the weekdays to her, and it was only [00:07:00] recently, or perhaps in the last few years, that I start understanding that, okay, you need a relationship, you need [00:07:05] to have time. And as Stephen Bartlett says, you want deep, meaningful connections [00:07:10] with people. That’s the key thing. If you can develop deep, meaningful connections with people, everything else comes easily. [00:07:15] And when you’re so set in your ways, I mean, the only woman I live with is my sister, and we used to drive [00:07:20] each other well. She used to drive me mad, but generally we used to get along quite well. But when you’ve not lived with [00:07:25] someone, you don’t get to know them as well, because life isn’t going out and going on holidays [00:07:30] and going out for dinners and things like that. It’s that core familiarity you get when you live with [00:07:35] someone. And, and I think a lot of the guys that I know, I don’t know any single guys. [00:07:40] I’m the only one. I don’t know really.
Rhona Eskander: What within the Dental community or wider circle [00:07:45] or.
Nilesh Parmar: Both in my close friend circle. So in my friend circle and I had my 20 year [00:07:50] reunion from my first degree, and we went round and there was about 35 of us who turned up. We [00:07:55] went round the room and I was expecting everyone to be fat and ugly and dishevelled. I was really disappointed. They all [00:08:00] looked really good, actually. And um, and they everyone was like married kid, married [00:08:05] kid, married kid married kid second married, second married third kid. And everyone who went [00:08:10] round and it was for me, it was just a realisation that you focussed so much [00:08:15] on career and the things. When I talk to a lot of younger people and [00:08:20] I mentor now as well, one of the things I say is look, don’t lose sight of what the end goal is or what you want from [00:08:25] your life. Sit down and write it down. What do you want from your life? It’s so easy to get tied up in the [00:08:30] kind of Instagram realities that I want. Private jets and I want to go this. I want to do car tours [00:08:35] and all this sort of stuff. But then you can only do that for so long. You need to develop [00:08:40] those deep, meaningful connections. You can’t just sacrifice everything for [00:08:45] that. You need to have family. You need to put effort into relationships. And [00:08:50] that’s something that I didn’t learn until probably in the last five years.
Rhona Eskander: I think I’m going to challenge you on that as well, because [00:08:55] again, it’s a two fold situation. People that you don’t know who they are and [00:09:00] then choose to get married young, sure, they can form a connection, but then I would argue that perhaps they find [00:09:05] it even more difficult to pursue their dreams that set them up for the life that they can have [00:09:10] and provide for their family. Like you’re unlikely to say you marry someone young. You’ve grown together. [00:09:15] Sure, it worked out for a few years, but then you’ve got a mortgage, kids, alimony, etc. and [00:09:20] you have this dream of like leaving your job in the city and pursuing a Start-Up. You can’t really do that. [00:09:25] Does that make sense? So I think we have to make conscientious choices. Come on. Like what you’re [00:09:30] going to say to me that somebody that’s the sole provider, he’s got a wife that became a housewife, has [00:09:35] two children, say that he wants to leave the marriage because he’s unhappy, and then he’s still got [00:09:40] to pay for the house, the divorce, etc., etc. he’s not going to suddenly quit his job with stable [00:09:45] income to, you know, do a start up.
Payman Langroudi: It’s less likely to take risk.
Rhona Eskander: It’s less likely to take risks. [00:09:50] Now, I think you’re right. Like, have you both seen the deathbed thing? You know, about the [00:09:55] nurse that said the biggest, um, death. Do you know it? Yeah. So for those [00:10:00] that don’t know it, you know, basically a nurse to come out, she wrote a book on it. So I really recommend [00:10:05] it about the five, um, deathbed things that people said that they wished they had achieved in their life. [00:10:10] One big factor, as you said, is that they’d wish they’d spend more time with their loved ones. So you can interpret [00:10:15] that in any way that you consider. I think that that is really [00:10:20] important to nourish relationships. But I don’t think your only relationship in life is your [00:10:25] relationship, that you still have deep, meaningful connections with your family, for example. And [00:10:30] I think hindsight I mean, Payman chime in, please, because how old were you when you got married? 31. [00:10:35] Yeah. So how do you feel like on the other side? Because I’d say that’s fairly young, you know, to get married. [00:10:40] And do you feel because obviously as you got older and wiser, like, how do you feel your life changed, [00:10:45] how you navigated a relationship? What do you what’s your kind of perception? [00:10:50]
Payman Langroudi: I mean, it depends on the particular relationship, right? So [00:10:55] you have a particular relationship. But I’m interested in in what you’re saying about girlfriends. [00:11:00] Mm. I’ve seen lots of girlfriends of yours over the years. Over [00:11:05] the years. Over the.
Rhona Eskander: Years.
Nilesh Parmar: Like over the years.
Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:11:10] And so when and each of these relationships has failed before you’ve [00:11:15] even lived together. Yeah. So when you look back on it, do you see a pattern of [00:11:20] self-sabotage? Does it get to a certain point and you get scared and and push him [00:11:25] away, or are you attracting the wrong kind of woman, or are you attracted.
Rhona Eskander: To the wrong person.
Payman Langroudi: Kind of patterns [00:11:30] are you seeing in the so failure of those relationships?
Nilesh Parmar: It’s really interesting. So, um, the last relationship I was in, [00:11:35] she sat me down one day and she said, look, I don’t feel we’re making. I’m not getting to know the real [00:11:40] you. We’re not having that connection. And I was like, what do you mean? How did you feel? Yeah, I [00:11:45] felt a bit prosecuted, almost. I felt as if I was. But did you feel.
Rhona Eskander: A connection with [00:11:50] her?
Nilesh Parmar: I did, yeah, yeah, I thought I did, but. So she, um, [00:11:55] suggested doing something called the Landmark Forum, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Payman Langroudi: I’ve been on it.
Rhona Eskander: So [00:12:00] some dodgy stuff about it too.
Nilesh Parmar: So it’s very American. They they really push [00:12:05] it. They’re very, very pushy. Yeah. Um, but you get [00:12:10] from it what you want to get from it, right? You don’t take it too seriously the first time I did it, and I’ve done it twice. [00:12:15] I walked out on the last day. I just had enough. You were like, done? Yeah. I was like, I’m done. And I’ve [00:12:20] got a very logical brain. Not a very emotional brain, very, very. It’s really hard to break [00:12:25] through to me for that sort of stuff. I’m like one plus one is two. I don’t deal with, you know, [00:12:30] non absolutes. And then, um, I did it and I almost had a revelation about [00:12:35] so many things, and it made me understand how. And coming from an Asian background where your parents [00:12:40] were, my dad, who was is a dentist, an orthodontist, did six days a week [00:12:45] working as and you guys know, doing six days a week, 40 years is [00:12:50] intense right in in what we do. And his main rhetoric [00:12:55] was because they were born very he was born very, very poor. And he would tell me amazing [00:13:00] stories about how they would save up to go to the cinema on a Friday and the ad, um, [00:13:05] seven brothers and sisters, they would save up, they’d buy one chicken. I used to get a piece [00:13:10] and one bottle of Coke and that would be shared amongst everyone. So they they grew up with nothing. And [00:13:15] his thing was just to work very, very hard. And it was just working hard, sheer, sheer, [00:13:20] um, willpower to be successful and to put money and to put the kids through education, etc. it’s all our [00:13:25] parents ever wanted. So I grew up just seeing hard work. I didn’t grow up [00:13:30] seeing deep, meaningful connections. I grew up just seeing work. And that’s what I emulated right when [00:13:35] I when I grew up, that’s what I did. I did what my dad did, just worked my ass off. And it was only after [00:13:40] I did that course. Then I started having conversations with people that I never had before. [00:13:45]
Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So explain in that course they they encourage you to phone someone that you’ve wronged.
Nilesh Parmar: Yeah. They’ll [00:13:50] encourage you to phone someone who’s wrong.
Rhona Eskander: They do that in like AA and all those addictions stuff. Like you have to kind of like [00:13:55] repent, like the way you’ve treated people. So I had to agree to that. I had a very.
Payman Langroudi: Strange conversation with my brother. But [00:14:00] go ahead. Who did you call?
Nilesh Parmar: I phoned up an ex-girlfriend.
Rhona Eskander: Okay, okay. Well, [00:14:05] you felt that you’d wronged her.
Nilesh Parmar: So I phoned up an ex girlfriend that I had wronged and apologised, [00:14:10] etc., etc..
Rhona Eskander: And did she take that?
Nilesh Parmar: She was fine. She was. I mean, it was a long, long time ago, but what was [00:14:15] it?
Payman Langroudi: What was the thing you’d wronged her with? If you if you’re happy to talk about it?
Nilesh Parmar: Basically, she was very much in love and [00:14:20] I just thought, I’ve had enough. Now I don’t want to be in a relationship anymore. I want to be single again. I want to [00:14:25] have some fun and be a lad about town. So I just ended the relationship when she was madly in [00:14:30] love, like madly, madly, because.
Rhona Eskander: She just she felt blindsided.
Nilesh Parmar: Almost totally blindsided. It’s like having [00:14:35] the best day of your life. And the next day somebody saying no, but just pulling all of that from under you. And that’s exactly what I did. And it was a really shit thing [00:14:40] to do. But I didn’t understand. For me, it was like, okay, done, delete the number. I’m finished. It’s out of sight, [00:14:45] out of mind. And you didn’t realise that there are repercussions when you’re in a relationship with someone and you do things, [00:14:50] there’s repercussions onto their life as well. And whatever you do, even after the relationship, [00:14:55] there can be repercussions on their life as well. Once you imprint on each other, you [00:15:00] are almost connected for quite a long time.
Rhona Eskander: Do you believe in karma?
Nilesh Parmar: Yeah, yeah, very much so.
Rhona Eskander: So [00:15:05] I feel because I feel like you’re talking about karma basically, in a way.
Payman Langroudi: But what what do you believe about karma? You. I [00:15:10] bet you do, right? I bet you I.
Rhona Eskander: Mean, I have a real innate sense of wrong and right [00:15:15] in a real sense of consciousness. And I often wonder, because I grew up in a my father’s side [00:15:20] of the family is extremely Christian like, extremely like Coptic Christians are basically like Greek [00:15:25] Orthodox. They’re very religious. And because they’re the minority of Christians in the Middle East, [00:15:30] they take it very seriously. And my father really wasn’t like that. And my mom’s Catholic [00:15:35] and my my father did like the blasphemous thing by marrying a Catholic when he was a Coptic Christian. [00:15:40] But my grandmother, like, made me feel like this. Like I’m going to go to hell. Like for wearing, like, revealing [00:15:45] clothes for like, not like. And I went to a Catholic primary school. So I feel like this [00:15:50] innate sense of wrong and right, like, did you ever have that thing, a kid where you, like, tell a white lie [00:15:55] or you wouldn’t do something, and then you felt like you’d go to hell? I don’t know, like I’ve had that really. Like [00:16:00] I really have that, like innate sense.
Payman Langroudi: There’s a lot of guilt in religion, but how does that [00:16:05] relate to karma?
Rhona Eskander: Because then I thought that if I wrong, somebody would come back to me tenfold. Yeah. So I [00:16:10] think that that’s what makes me think about karma, as I often think about if I’m impacting [00:16:15] somebody’s life in a negative way, it’s going to come back at me tenfold. So every [00:16:20] decision and often like people describe me as being a bit of a pushover. I’m very emotional, [00:16:25] sensitive. You know, this and I think, yeah, okay, I might be a pushover sometimes, but [00:16:30] my genuine thing is, is like, if I do respond with kindness and genuine [00:16:35] kindness, I do believe it comes back to me in another way rather than responding with like, aggression and [00:16:40] hate. And has that happened over time? I think that over time, the kindness has [00:16:45] enabled me to forgive more easily. And I think that forgiveness is a lot more powerful than people think, [00:16:50] because forgiveness allows you to move on with your life. You know, I don’t forget, but I forgive. [00:16:55] That’s what I say. I’ll be like, cool, they did this to me, I forgive them. This is their own shit that’s going [00:17:00] on. But I won’t forget. Therefore, I won’t really trust them anymore. But I just move on from it, you [00:17:05] know?
Payman Langroudi: So what do you. What’s your understanding of karma?
Nilesh Parmar: So I was always brought up with the good [00:17:10] from my dad. A good sense of right and wrong. Right. You treat people well, you do things as they should be done. [00:17:15] And you try and be. You try and do the right thing as a man should do, right? But sometimes [00:17:20] we always steer from. We always walk away from the path now and then it always come back. We walk away from the path. [00:17:25] And karma for me was just if you’re a good person, good things will happen to you. It’s very simple. It’s very black [00:17:30] and white. But sometimes it’s also that self awareness because you might be [00:17:35] doing something and you don’t realise how much you’re hurting someone. Yeah, and you’re doing it without even thinking about [00:17:40] it. And for, for me, after I did landmark, the conversations [00:17:45] I had with a girlfriend at the time became very, very different in my eyes. We connected [00:17:50] a lot more and we were having much more, deeper conversations. Not just where are we going, what [00:17:55] we’re going to eat, what we’re doing here. And, you know, just just, um, surface level, you know, you have like level one, two, [00:18:00] three, four, whatever. So we were more dotting around three and four as opposed to one and two. [00:18:05] And I’d been seeing this, this individual for, you know, 6 to 9 months. [00:18:10]
Nilesh Parmar: And only after I’d done landmark were we having conversations that I never knew so many of these things [00:18:15] about her. And then I started revealing things about me. And I’m quite private about my vulnerable [00:18:20] conversations. And you’re and especially with the girlfriend who you don’t, you have that [00:18:25] kind of old fashioned Indian mentality where the man has to be the man, right? You don’t want to give, you don’t want to be vulnerable [00:18:30] in front of your partner. But then it all just started to flow out. And I remember one night, [00:18:35] I think we must have spoken for 4 or 5 hours about everything and [00:18:40] everything. So literally that person knows everything about me and things that I don’t [00:18:45] think I’ve ever told anyone. And that was that kind of idea of deep, meaningful connection. I mean, we broke up in [00:18:50] the end, which was a bit ironic anyway, but that that kind of maybe I scared her off, but that [00:18:55] that idea of having that connection, you felt so much closer to that person because a, [00:19:00] the level of trust just goes up to another level, because you’ve told them all of these things about you that you’ve never told [00:19:05] anyone, you know. And that was one thing that I always struggled with.
Payman Langroudi: But so is that what you’re saying? Are you saying [00:19:10] the pattern of relationship breakdown in the past has been that you haven’t shown all of yourself? Definitely. [00:19:15] To your your girlfriend?
Nilesh Parmar: Yeah. You’re always hold something back. You’d always hold. [00:19:20] What do you.
Payman Langroudi: Think that comes from?
Nilesh Parmar: Um, a lot of it comes from, I would say, being bullied [00:19:25] as a kid. I think being made to feel as if you weren’t good enough when loads of [00:19:30] loads of bullying. When I was a child and I said I had a stammer and I was quite short and fat, and [00:19:35] my mum really liked me having like a big afro kind of haircut. So, um, so the kids used [00:19:40] to call me mushroom because I had like a big headphone, a bit like that, and I didn’t realise people would call me mushroom [00:19:45] and chant mushroom to me. And I was like, why mushroom? Some Indian thing? And it’s only the teacher said, okay, [00:19:50] they’re calling you mushroom. And I was like, why? And he goes, because of your hair. And I was like, oh, that’s really not nice. Um, [00:19:55] and I think you because of that, you became quite closed off. So as a child, I [00:20:00] remember I’d come home from school where the other kids were playing football and stuff outside the South End. This was [00:20:05] in South End. And were there not.
Payman Langroudi: Many Asians in South End back then?
Nilesh Parmar: There were in my class there was one other brown guy. [00:20:10] And then I would get. I remember I used to get a little Cadbury’s [00:20:15] chocolate buttons, little mini thing, packet of crisps and a little mini can of like [00:20:20] Coke, because go to my room and I’d watch TV like I wouldn’t go outside. And then I was playing computer. I was very introverted [00:20:25] as a child, so much so that I became very shy around women. [00:20:30] Um, the more attractive the woman, the more shy I got and the more attractive the woman, the more my stomach came out. [00:20:35] And then at sixth form, they used because I went to a boys school at sixth form. That’s when you had girls [00:20:40] come in, and I was sat next to one of the most gorgeous at the time, all the most gorgeous [00:20:45] girls. I literally just was paralysed, I couldn’t talk, I found it so difficult and this girl was lovely. She’d have [00:20:50] a conversation with me. She must have thought I was some stupid kid that had a speech impediment because I was just [00:20:55] like, uh, literally couldn’t talk to her. And when you have, there’s different types [00:21:00] of stigma. But the stigma I had, there was certain words you can’t say, and you change [00:21:05] the phrasing of the sentence, so you change the word. But the usually [00:21:10] that word doesn’t always make sense. So you would say things and they’ll sound [00:21:15] really weird to it, and that would get the more stressed I got, the worse it would get. [00:21:20] And then my gag reflex would kick in as well. So you’re almost like a nervous wreck at one. And [00:21:25] when I got into university, it just disappeared. Well, overnight. Why did.
Rhona Eskander: I [00:21:30] think dentistry.
Payman Langroudi: Give you reinvented himself in university?
Rhona Eskander: Dentistry give you confidence? [00:21:35]
Nilesh Parmar: Both do you both right. And getting into dental school gave me confidence because I’m so hard. I [00:21:40] never got in. I got no offers, nothing. I got in through clearing. Yeah. My parents hid all the failure letters [00:21:45] from me. It was all like, shoved down the back of the sofa. He really got it. And I don’t think it’s gonna happen. [00:21:50] I was so strange. Nobody’s read to me.
[TRANSITION]: What’s going on? Yeah.
Nilesh Parmar: So I got in through clearing and, [00:21:55] um. And then turned out first day of uni, and it just disappeared. Because you’re right, you just. It’s [00:22:00] a new start. You reinvent yourself. And that I’d [00:22:05] like to say that was nice. And then it became nil. It was very too different.
Payman Langroudi: I remember clearly in Cardiff [00:22:10] on my first night in Cardiff, being this other person than the person I [00:22:15] was two nights before. As a sixth former, a lot of people reinvented themselves. I’m actually telling [00:22:20] my son to leave London for this same reason in case there’s an evolution. Yeah, yeah.
Rhona Eskander: I mean, [00:22:25] I think like it completely depends. Like some people I remember very clearly, like, first of all, I had no interest [00:22:30] in the dentists themselves because as soon as I saw them I was like, these are not my people. I [00:22:35] naturally love people in the creative and the arts. I did English, philosophy, [00:22:40] chemistry and biology, so I naturally gravitated towards people that did like very [00:22:45] woo woo type subjects, you know, really analysing human behaviour. So I applied to the halls, [00:22:50] they called it the Harry Potter halls. It was called Devonshire Halls. I remember it really hard to get into, [00:22:55] and it was all the boarding school lot that the that were there and I almost I was done with North London [00:23:00] because, you know, it was like north London. I was like done with Highgate UK’s boys, done with all that, like, you know, [00:23:05] all the Jews, the Arabs, the Chinese. I was like, I want to go like completely opposite and [00:23:10] go into something like white boarding school, that Harry Potter type territory. And that was the kind [00:23:15] of experience that I had. And Dental school for me was very closed off. It was very [00:23:20] much like Dental people hung out with Dental, people dated Dental, people did everything, and I just hated [00:23:25] that cliquey ness of it. I just hated it. I had no interest, you know, I wanted to be around [00:23:30] diversity. I think that was really important. But what I was trying to say to the point that you were saying about people almost [00:23:35] reinventing themselves, there were a few people that came to university that had gone to school with [00:23:40] other people, and they were like, she’s nothing like that. She’s reinvented herself. But after two years, her true character came out [00:23:45] anyway. Not necessarily bad, but say she was a bit of a geek, for example, like the geekiness came [00:23:50] out after two years. So I think it’s not necessarily about reinventing yourself, it’s either about finding [00:23:55] yourself. But I think if you try too hard to pretend to be someone you’re not, it’s going to it’s not authentic, [00:24:00] but it’s.
Payman Langroudi: Someone sometimes it’s someone you are. But you couldn’t be be at school. At school, [00:24:05] sometimes it’s there.
Nilesh Parmar: Or if you’re at school and you’re the cool kid, right? You don’t need to reinvent [00:24:10] yourself when you come to university. Yeah, yeah, there’s that too. Don’t have that social pressure if you’re at school [00:24:15] and you’re the awkward fat kid that people wouldn’t remember, you’re in the [00:24:20] room, right? Then you you do want to read because you want to be something. For [00:24:25] me. I always want to be something called relevance, right? I want it to be relevant. If I came into a room, I wanted people [00:24:30] to think, that’s nice. He’s he’s relevant. You know, that was always a thing. Always had that insecurity [00:24:35] about just fading away and not being important.
Rhona Eskander: So do you think. [00:24:40] And I’m just going to throw it out there for you. Do you think that perhaps your overcompensation [00:24:45] for success and legacy was perhaps a childhood trauma because you weren’t fit, you didn’t [00:24:50] fit in to the school, in the schools, etc.? So the ability to really prove [00:24:55] that you were incredible, which you are, you’ve left a real mark on the industry was, [00:25:00] you know, also a mask for your childhood trauma and worth, as it were. And I’m just [00:25:05] going to analyse the situation and, and on top of, on top of that. [00:25:10] Okay. And.
Payman Langroudi: Psychology.
Rhona Eskander: And then I need to pay.
Nilesh Parmar: You like an hourly rate. [00:25:15]
Rhona Eskander: And then on top of that, you also, on some level [00:25:20] have not been emotionally available for a very long time and you think you’ve [00:25:25] been available, but there’s been a part of you that’s been like, unresolved and that’s why the relationships [00:25:30] have failed. So you just said there. Welcome to my Ted talk.
Nilesh Parmar: That’s fantastic. We can just go home now.
[TRANSITION]: Just [00:25:35] complete it.
Nilesh Parmar: That is that is so true. It was [00:25:40] it was. You take the emotion out of the equation. You take emotion out of the equation. You focus [00:25:45] on the in the black and the white. And then you can make things all right. What’s tangible. You can do this, you can [00:25:50] do that whatever it is. And yeah, I was closed off. And I’m sure if any of my ex-girlfriends [00:25:55] are listening to this, they’re all probably thinking, that’s so true.
[TRANSITION]: I knew he was like this.
Nilesh Parmar: And [00:26:00] I think it was only and I think the other thing was, is that and also [00:26:05] the after lockdown, I decided to do some more media work, right, to do some more TV, [00:26:10] radio, etc. that I hadn’t done before. And I started to do it. And the only people who are really doing it was you [00:26:15] and Mila. You’re probably much the only two who did a lot of TV and media work, and I was like, I quite like that. I’d quite like to do [00:26:20] that. So I started doing some and then the Bartlett gig came up and a few other gigs came [00:26:25] up and I was like, okay. And then I think I got to that stage. I was like, you know what? I think I’m I’ve [00:26:30] reached my I’ve reached this level of success that I want, like, I’m happy with. Yeah, I [00:26:35] don’t want more.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. So true.
Nilesh Parmar: And it was materialistic possessions. I was like, if [00:26:40] I bought another Ferrari right. Would it make any difference? I don’t have time to drive [00:26:45] the ones I have. If I bought another watch or another.
[TRANSITION]: Or another practice. Yeah. Yeah.
Nilesh Parmar: It doesn’t make [00:26:50] a difference. And it was, it was, it was, you know, a lot of the revelations when I was researching the Steven Bartlett thing [00:26:55] and when he was talking to billionaires, etc., and you know, how much is enough [00:27:00] and you have that Pavlovian need. You want food, shelter, accommodation, right? When you have [00:27:05] that, everything else is a positive. Everything else is just on top. And there’s one thing he said, he goes, do [00:27:10] you think a billionaire is happier when he when he changes in his 80 foot yacht [00:27:15] for 100 foot yacht, right. It doesn’t make any difference, right? If you go from earning two [00:27:20] grand to earning 60 grand, that’s a big difference. But if you go from earning 1 [00:27:25] million to earning 2 million, is it really going to make much of a difference to what you do in the morning? No, [00:27:30] does not make that much difference. So now that I feel as if the pressure is [00:27:35] off me in terms of the having to prove yourself right now that I don’t feel that’s [00:27:40] there anymore, that’s now where I’m like, okay, right, let’s concentrate on relationships, let’s concentrate on my friends and [00:27:45] become so much closer to some of my closer friends or my inner circle [00:27:50] than I ever have, you know, because I don’t have that pressure of having to prove myself anymore because I [00:27:55] am who I am now. And the people that are, they love me. They love me for who I am. Whereas before [00:28:00] I felt as if I had to be successful in order to get any attention, order to matter. When [00:28:05] I walked into a room where I don’t feel that pressure anymore. But you could only do that by going through the journey. [00:28:10] If I hadn’t gone through that journey, then I’d still be that kid with the stammer.
Rhona Eskander: But [00:28:15] that’s the thing. That’s why I think sometimes that we’re so hard on ourselves about the things that we should [00:28:20] and shouldn’t have done. And I’m like, I’m similar to you in a way, because like, should I have done this earlier? [00:28:25] Why didn’t I do it? And I was the same as you. I was like, when I reached this amount of followers, [00:28:30] when I reached, and I still really bad at that. And like when I do an ITV gig, a [00:28:35] makeover program, this, this, this. And I think deep down it was like maybe my I will [00:28:40] be seen and my worth will be enough. That’s pretty much why I think I was doing that. If I really if [00:28:45] I really think about it, obviously, you know, there’s the altruistic side, I wanted to help people, etc. [00:28:50] but then I also thought that it would constantly having these goals would make me feel. And then like you said, you get it. [00:28:55] I have my practice in Chelsea, expanded my team. I’ve completed media. Do you know what I mean? [00:29:00] Like what more. And I think that’s when you have to go on this inward journey. My I have a I have [00:29:05] a coach and he’s amazing. And he showed me two mountains and he said, there’s one mountain that people climb, right? And [00:29:10] they think that those things would make them happy. So on the way to the top, it’s all the materialistic [00:29:15] things, all the external stuff that we think about, and then we reach the top and we’re like, it’s actually not that [00:29:20] fucking great up here.
Rhona Eskander: It’s not that great up here. So what we do is we then start on a second [00:29:25] mountain, and the second mountain is all about the internal stuff, and that’s somewhat more challenging. And [00:29:30] I feel like it’s important. What I do want to ask you is, do you think that because I’ve [00:29:35] known you for a long time, the less you know, you helped me when I was like a nobody dentist. You know, you took your time out [00:29:40] because, you know, I was a very ambitious, you know, young dentist. And I’m always grateful for those times you take, [00:29:45] you know, to meet me for coffee or, you know, try to guide me through different things. There’s [00:29:50] been a change. I feel like you’re definitely on a different journey from, like, that man that I spoke to, [00:29:55] like seven years ago or whatever. Do you think that’s also because people have been having more [00:30:00] conversations, like, now we have access to these conversations. You know, for example, Bartlett talks [00:30:05] about this stuff all the time, podcasts in general. You’ve got Louis. How’s that? All these different people, do [00:30:10] you think that? It has been. That has been a change, particularly within the male circuit [00:30:15] of men talking about their emotions and their relationships and their struggles.
Nilesh Parmar: The before [00:30:20] you know, when we first started talking, men [00:30:25] didn’t show vulnerability. They did and [00:30:30] our fathers didn’t. Um, and the men that I looked up to, they [00:30:35] didn’t show vulnerability. They’re very macho, macho men. And we always thought that if you’re vulnerable, then, you know, [00:30:40] you’re a little bit, you know, you’re a bit of a wet blanket or whatever. And now you [00:30:45] have so many successful men, successful not only in a career perspective, but [00:30:50] in a relationship perspective, family, men, etc., etc. if you do show vulnerability. And [00:30:55] I think that has been a big shift, right? And when I look at my [00:31:00] social media, I cringe when I look at my social media like five, six, seven years ago. So bad. But when [00:31:05] you look at things now, there’s so many more men sharing things or being vulnerable [00:31:10] and sharing intimate things in their lives and saying, look, I have a weak spot. This [00:31:15] is my weak spot, right? This is an area for me that I’m not good at. This is something that I struggle [00:31:20] with, right? And they’re willing to share that with people. You never had that before. And it’s [00:31:25] those kind of trailblazing men who said it’s okay. And you remember that the [00:31:30] thing on this clothing brand that said, boys get sad too?
[TRANSITION]: Yes. Why do.
Rhona Eskander: I feel [00:31:35] like I know.
[TRANSITION]: That?
Nilesh Parmar: So that was a big movement, basically. Um, I don’t remember the guy. [00:31:40] It became quite popular and that was resonated with me because [00:31:45] as a man, if you were going to cry, right, if you were getting really upset about something, what do you do? You’d. For me, [00:31:50] I’d almost leave the room, go to the bathroom, have a cry and come back and be like, hey, yeah, I’m fine, let’s do this. [00:31:55] Whereas now I don’t think there’s anything wrong. So I’ve, I was thinking, have I did I ever cry in front [00:32:00] of a girlfriend? Like that for me is a big sense of vulnerability of course. And [00:32:05] yeah, I have, but only probably the last in the last three, three years or so. Would [00:32:10] I even entertain? Yeah. Because before you would never do that. And you are right. There’s been [00:32:15] there’s been a paradigm shift in men who can now be vulnerable and say, look, this [00:32:20] is an emotive subject for me. I can talk about it and I can show that emotion. And I think you [00:32:25] are right. As people like Bartlett, etc., who have pushed that agenda forward for us, but the whole boys get [00:32:30] sad. Two thing I think was a really powerful movement. And now we know it’s Men’s Health Awareness Month. And going [00:32:35] back to some of the things I’ve said, especially on some of the like, Asian Man podcasts. So I did [00:32:40] one which was aimed at young Asian male professionals who have an intense [00:32:45] pressure to be successful, to do this, to do that, to do that.
Rhona Eskander: And similar to Middle Eastern. [00:32:50]
Nilesh Parmar: Similar to Middle Eastern. Yeah. And um, one of the the things that we spoke about was [00:32:55] that mental health amongst young or South Asian males [00:33:00] is really around suicide rates for men are so much higher than women. Of course [00:33:05] we know, and my age is the peak age for men to commit suicide. And amongst South [00:33:10] Asian males, it’s even higher than anyone else. And it’s because they put so much pressure on themselves [00:33:15] to be something right that when they can’t achieve it because life [00:33:20] is tough, life is hard, right? We know that we’ve all been very fortunate and very lucky to be in the position that we are, [00:33:25] and we’ve all had help, right? We’ve all had a good education and we’ve all been [00:33:30] able to eat when we needed to eat. We’ve all had, you know, a roof over our heads. But for those people who don’t quite make [00:33:35] it in their eyes, a lot of them do choose to take their own lives. And in this country, we don’t [00:33:40] really cater for mental health as well. It was only recently did I consider going to therapy, and there’s a very good friend of [00:33:45] mine who has been having therapy and we’ve been discussing it, and I was like, maybe that’s [00:33:50] something I would consider. And I have done a few sessions and it has been really, really interesting just to learn about [00:33:55] yourself because you spend your life learning about what we do, learning about the head, the neck, the mouth, [00:34:00] bone pathology, everything but your own self. I never really knew myself [00:34:05] and that was something that I’m learning now.
Rhona Eskander: I spend thousands [00:34:10] and thousands of pounds on my inner self when Payman. [00:34:15] When I first approached Payman about this mental health podcast, he was like absolute rubbish. No one’s going to listen [00:34:20] to it. And then I re-approached him. Yes, don’t give me that look incorrect. And um, and uh. [00:34:25]
[TRANSITION]: And uh, incorrect information.
Rhona Eskander: And then you know what he really saw? That was something. [00:34:30] And I think particularly within the Dental arena, like mental health is rife. But I also feel like people don’t [00:34:35] have the awareness to know they’re going through something. And I think when I really think about it, I think I [00:34:40] started having mental health stuff since I was like 11. I had been in and out of therapy since I was like 21, [00:34:45] I would say, and I had a really crappy therapist for years, but I was like, is this what therapy [00:34:50] is? And how does that make you feel? I don’t know, you tell me.
[TRANSITION]: How it makes.
Rhona Eskander: Me feel that way. And [00:34:55] then it wasn’t until I found my current therapist who we had on this podcast, Ella, who also spoke at [00:35:00] his event, the most recent one who I introduced him to and I think like half the Dental arena [00:35:05] now use her just because, like she’s so brilliant. And having a good therapist is almost like having a good dentist. [00:35:10] Like you’re like, you get me? You explain everything and it’s so great and you know, your brain [00:35:15] is like, it’s a muscle, right? As in, like if you are exercising it [00:35:20] in the way you can impact the output. So I think it’s been one [00:35:25] of the most beneficial things. But what I have noticed, I have an Asian friend. And her brother [00:35:30] wanted to go to therapy, and she’d completely shamed him for it because [00:35:35] it was not. Not in a way that she loved her brother, but she was like, you’re wasting your money. And [00:35:40] how can you know like this? How can you have therapy? There’s nothing wrong with you. Well, you don’t have to [00:35:45] have a therapist to have something imminently wrong with you. You know, that’s the whole point. Like, let’s take away that stigma.
Payman Langroudi: You [00:35:50] think that the sort of, you know, the way you’ve described [00:35:55] it is that you you weren’t fully open with [00:36:00] with relationships, you weren’t fully open with yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and now [00:36:05] you’re now things are more normalised and you can talk about it and all that. Do you think that sort of the evolution. [00:36:10] Of let’s let’s just call it minorities for [00:36:15] the sake of the argument here. Insomuch as, you know, it mustn’t [00:36:20] be that you’re you live the same experience as your dad. You [00:36:25] know, it has to evolve. It has to go forward. But there’s for me a tension [00:36:30] between keeping your identity as a as a young boy. Not [00:36:35] anymore. An old man like that.
[TRANSITION]: An old.
Rhona Eskander: Man agent.
Payman Langroudi: In [00:36:40] keeping your identity as what it is, but also evolving [00:36:45] intellectually. And, you know, in a way, in a way, I understand why people [00:36:50] marry people from the same religion and the same caste and the same. I get it, because, you know, there’s [00:36:55] that normality in it. There’s so we know where it is. At the same time, I find it a little bit disconcerting, [00:37:00] you know, that so few Asians marry out.
[TRANSITION]: It’s true, I.
Rhona Eskander: Have noticed [00:37:05] and I because I have a lot of Asian friends.
[TRANSITION]: And it’s part of the evolution.
Rhona Eskander: But also I find it really [00:37:10] remarkable how controversial things are. Like there’s disputes [00:37:15] because they’re not from the same caste. There’s disputes because, yeah, like and I’m like, wow, [00:37:20] it’s kind of fascinating. But also I think I moved away from all that Middle Eastern [00:37:25] bullshit, to be honest with you, because my father also married Catholic when he was Coptic Christian. [00:37:30] So that was like super controversial. But I find it like like as Payman said, like [00:37:35] it’s especially within the Dental arena.
Nilesh Parmar: I feel as if not our [00:37:40] generation, but the next generation I think will be much more open.
[TRANSITION]: Do you think?
Nilesh Parmar: Yeah, I mean, I tried I mean, [00:37:45] I was with the Iranian girl for a long time, right? And we almost went the whole way. And [00:37:50] the thing is, for me, I mean, my parents were never that religious. They have [00:37:55] their moments, but generally they weren’t that religious. And my dad was always a thing that, you know, as long as they’re a good person, [00:38:00] right? They’re a good person. I mean, we’re not religious ourselves anyway, so [00:38:05] it never really meant that much to me sometimes. But when you are with somebody who’s [00:38:10] the same religion, you do have a lot more things in common, etc.. Um, and it can make things easier [00:38:15] because Indian families generally are very interconnected. So I still [00:38:20] see my parents every week, I still see my sister and nephew, etc. every week. And when you [00:38:25] bring somebody into that sort of equation, if they are aware of some of the [00:38:30] idiosyncrasies of being in an Indian family, that just makes life easier, right? But you are [00:38:35] correct that Indians do still have some old school traditional values [00:38:40] which don’t really apply anymore in this country, and.
Payman Langroudi: It might [00:38:45] be the best thing and the worst thing at the same time. Yeah, exactly.
Nilesh Parmar: And I think if you come to this country and your kids are growing [00:38:50] up and your kids are going to school with white people, Iranian people, Middle Eastern people, etc., there will be. [00:38:55]
[TRANSITION]: Interconnection.
Nilesh Parmar: Interconnection with them. And if you look at Middle Eastern people, Iranian [00:39:00] people, Indian people, they do have very, very similar, similar ideologies. Right. And [00:39:05] two three of my closest friends are Iranian, and they always love telling me that this is an Iranian dish.
[TRANSITION]: I’m like, [00:39:10] no.
Nilesh Parmar: That’s an Indian dish or burnt potato dish is.
[TRANSITION]: Rubbish. I don’t like it, whatever it is. [00:39:15]
Nilesh Parmar: And um, but because there is that you, there’s that familiarity there. It’s [00:39:20] easier to make connections with those people. Right. But amongst our cohort [00:39:25] or in our family kind of, um, situation, there have been Hindus [00:39:30] marrying Sikhs, there have been Hindus marrying Christians, there have been Hindus marrying Muslims. Like [00:39:35] it’s it’s now I don’t think that’s as much of a big deal as perhaps.
Payman Langroudi: If you if you bought [00:39:40] an English girl home and said, I want to marry her, would there be eyebrows raised?
[TRANSITION]: Money would just go for anything. Yeah. [00:39:45] You like you can bring me home.
Rhona Eskander: I want to chime in here. I think from a personal point [00:39:50] of view, I had a bit of an identity crisis in the sense that when I went to Leeds [00:39:55] because of the halls that I was in, it was all like white, posh [00:40:00] public school people. Um, I lived with Prince Harry’s ex-girlfriend. [00:40:05] I made the book and I was saying that, yeah, I’m in the book. I’m in. He trusted [00:40:10] us. He trusted us. But anyway, it was a very, like, white public [00:40:15] school kind of thing. And, you know, they were very much like, oh, you’re so exotic, you know what I mean? That [00:40:20] kind of chat. And for me, for the first time in my life, I was like the brown person. And I think I tried [00:40:25] desperately, desperately to fit in like it was really important for me to fit in and feel [00:40:30] like I belonged. And I think understanding that my father struggled as an immigrant when he first came [00:40:35] to the UK, I was like trying to be white, if I’m completely honest with you. Anyway, [00:40:40] what happened was, is that the series of boyfriends that I had had a long term boyfriend, they [00:40:45] were all English, like I say all, but I had three white English boyfriends. But in the [00:40:50] end, it was like I had this epiphany when I hit 30 and I was like, I don’t want to marry [00:40:55] a white person because I actually love my culture and I know this is complete [00:41:00] generalisation, but what I found was they didn’t necessarily get my culture and get the craziness [00:41:05] and get the Middle Eastern thing and get my parents like they they would get involved, like [00:41:10] to a degree. But I think I actually craved something like that. And I think that’s [00:41:15] why I’ve ended up with a Greek person who also has similar kind of qualities and values.
Payman Langroudi: This question [00:41:20] is interesting because you’re just about about to get married. Yeah, you. Hopefully [00:41:25] we’ll get married soon. Or not. By the way, by the way, if [00:41:30] you don’t.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah, who cares mate? Who cares?
Payman Langroudi: But, but but it’s important to understand [00:41:35] that when you marry someone, the two families marry. It’s real. Yeah. [00:41:40]
[TRANSITION]: Is it real about this?
Payman Langroudi: Because, I mean.
Rhona Eskander: You know, I’m lucky because my mother in law don’t [00:41:45] speak a word of English. Really? Not even, like. Not even like. Hello, Jack. Jack. [00:41:50] He said Google.
[TRANSITION]: Translate.
Rhona Eskander: It’s amazing.
Nilesh Parmar: No Google translator might mess you up.
Payman Langroudi: Lucky [00:41:55] you’re unlucky. Look, the thing is that you end up spending a lot of time with that family. Yeah, [00:42:00] there’s no way around that. I mean, they’re.
Rhona Eskander: In Greece, but.
[TRANSITION]: Sure, but you end up.
Payman Langroudi: Spending a lot of time with that family. Yeah. Unless [00:42:05] you are happy for your the dad of your kids to be away a lot. Yeah. Um, or [00:42:10] you end up taking that that son away from their family. So there’s no there’s no easy [00:42:15] answer to it. Yeah. So the generally, you’re not spending a lot of time with the other family. And [00:42:20] if the other if you don’t get on with the other family, that’s a problem. Um, and it’s easier to get on with the other [00:42:25] family if there’s some, some things you have in common. All of that is true.
Rhona Eskander: I don’t know, I don’t know, Payman. Because, like, [00:42:30] the thing is, is that my my dad’s family, they completely rejected my mum, like, horrendously so. And [00:42:35] still till this day sadly. Okay. And then I would maybe agree with you in the sense that like, we’re not close [00:42:40] to my dad’s family as a result because they completely first of all, they’re all in America. Secondly, [00:42:45] they ostracised my mum because they just would never accept her and that anything in life was like, [00:42:50] Rhona and Tanya aren’t married and living with boyfriends because they’re sinned, because she was [00:42:55] Catholic. And he was like, do you know what I mean? Even now, even now, like.
[TRANSITION]: The religious [00:43:00] extremism. But like, you guys have seen.
Rhona Eskander: My parents and my parents are like such [00:43:05] an inspiring couple. And the thing is, my dad is like, this is the woman I [00:43:10] chose, and I love her. And like, they still stuck by that, so you don’t. Yeah, I get what you’re saying. [00:43:15] But I also feel if you as a relationship are strong enough, the worst thing you want to do as [00:43:20] well, which I’ve seen happen, is marry someone that your parents want you to marry, or vice versa [00:43:25] because you’re doing it to appease them or be the perfect child. You know? And I’m sure [00:43:30] you’ve had opportunities to be set up or whatever, whatever. And they’ve had like the ideal type of girl. But you [00:43:35] know who you are as a man and you’re like, I’m not going to marry someone just because she ticks a few boxes. Do you know what I mean? [00:43:40]
Nilesh Parmar: I still remember my dad saying, I’ve got this. They call it a mongrel, which is basically like a request [00:43:45] for marriage. It’s called a mongrel. He’s like, you know, she’s from America, she’s got a [00:43:50] law degree. She’s this. And he goes, she’s a bit fat.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah, it’s okay. We’ve got Jim. I was like that. [00:43:55] Yeah.
Nilesh Parmar: But luckily my parents were never that pushy. Pushy, right. They saw what I was trying [00:44:00] to do. And to their credit, they kind of left me alone. I think now.
[TRANSITION]: Maybe their grandkids and they’ve [00:44:05] got one grandkids.
Nilesh Parmar: Um, or they’ve got two actually, they’ve got two from my cousins. But I think maybe [00:44:10] they were just worried that, you know, this will be lonely when he’s older. Like, what will he do when he’s older? You know, I think it’s [00:44:15] that concern from your parents, but from what you were saying before, and I’ve [00:44:20] seen so many of my friends get married, so many of our friends get divorced. So many. Your friends have good relationships, some of my friends are [00:44:25] on their second marriages, etc. and there’s so many moving parts to it. Right? There’s [00:44:30] from what Payman said, it’s the family agenda. So do the families. If the families [00:44:35] don’t get along, you keep them apart, right? It’s when they get together. [00:44:40] That’s when the that’s when the friction happens, right? That’s when you get the flames. If the mother in law is this or the [00:44:45] father in law is that, you just have to manage the situation. But the key thing is that as long as the relationship [00:44:50] between the husband and the wife is good, then you can get through everything. And I think every [00:44:55] marriage that I’ve seen, they all have ups and downs. Nothing is easy, but it’s all about open [00:45:00] lines of communication. So if if I did ever get married and that’s another question [00:45:05] right now in my position, getting married is can be a daunting [00:45:10] thing because you have a lot to lose, right? Even financially, financially, especially. [00:45:15]
[TRANSITION]: For a man.
Nilesh Parmar: And and I’ve seen and I’ve got friends who are getting divorced and they’re giving everything, giving [00:45:20] 80%. And when I look at the action it gives me, my hoop starts buzzing because [00:45:25] my heart rate goes up so high, because I’m like, Holy shit, you’re literally just giving everything away, like everything [00:45:30] you’ve ever done. And then for someone like me in my position.
[TRANSITION]: That’s a lot.
Nilesh Parmar: I’m I’m like, [00:45:35] well, you know, is that something that I want to do? Would it just be nice to just to live with her or do I need to trust her? Or [00:45:40] do you get a prenup? And there’s all these difficult conversations that you need to have because you do have to protect yourself. [00:45:45]
Rhona Eskander: Can I just say so? My partner is extremely successful. He’s actually more successful [00:45:50] than me, and he’s accrued a lot of assets. And obviously I’ve accrued assets as well, like [00:45:55] the clinic and stuff. And we actually had a conversation, a transparent conversation, [00:46:00] and I said, I’m fine with a prenup because I [00:46:05] don’t want you to feel like I’ll take anything from you. And, you know, I’ve got my own stuff. And [00:46:10] but it’s so funny because, like you said, like when we were talking about it and then exploring it, like you said, [00:46:15] automatically by me living in his house, not even being married, I’m entitled [00:46:20] to half the house. I’m entitled to half.
[TRANSITION]: The house subconsciously.
Nilesh Parmar: That’s why girlfriends don’t live.
[TRANSITION]: Um. [00:46:25]
Rhona Eskander: And, you know, like, it’s really crazy because I was like, wow, the law is not [00:46:30] in favour.
Payman Langroudi: You know what? It’s reminding me what you’re saying here. What it’s reminding me of is the time where [00:46:35] I thought, oh, I haven’t got time to go to the gym. And then I saw President [00:46:40] Clinton in the gym. You know, there are there are people 100 times more valuable [00:46:45] than you getting married. Mhm. Yeah. So in a way it’s an irrational fear in itself.
[TRANSITION]: That is true. [00:46:50] But I think there’s.
Nilesh Parmar: Just something you need to have in the back of so. So let’s say if I turned up with some 22 [00:46:55] year.
[TRANSITION]: Old come on. Yeah exactly. It’s a bit different when finished.
Nilesh Parmar: You just you, you just [00:47:00] keep that in the back of your mind. You assess. And for me, I also go [00:47:05] on the opinion of my inner circle. Like my close friends. They’ll meet her, see what they think [00:47:10] you know. Is it approved? Is it because I feel as if sometimes we just have rose tinted glasses, right? You’re with someone. [00:47:15] You love her. You love him. Whatever your your ability to make determinations [00:47:20] on that person is skewed because of how you feel. Your family’s ability [00:47:25] to make determination be skewed because how they want to protect you. There’s only your friends who can look at [00:47:30] that person and say, right? And I remember I had this one patient who sadly [00:47:35] passed away a few years ago that I did mad work for, like hip Bone. [00:47:40] Everything totally changed her smile. She became the most happiest person in the world, but she was a [00:47:45] former CEO of a company very, very die hard, cutthroat, really good with [00:47:50] people. And she’s like, Ellis, if you ever are going to get married, I want to meet this [00:47:55] guy. And I was thinking, shit, I feel sorry for her because she will just obliterate her, just take her apart. And [00:48:00] you need people like that to meet the person that you’re going to spend the rest of your life with [00:48:05] and to help you make those decisions. But like you say, Bill Clinton has got time to go.
Rhona Eskander: Martin was their CEO, [00:48:10] married, by the way.
[TRANSITION]: Yes. She was.
Rhona Eskander: Successful marriage.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah.
Nilesh Parmar: She [00:48:15] was good.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Good.
Nilesh Parmar: Bill Clinton has got time to go to the gym. He always got time to cheat on his wife.
Rhona Eskander: Exactly. [00:48:20] And let’s not forget what happened to Monica Lewinsky.
Payman Langroudi: Well, I was talking about the gym. There I was, I was saying [00:48:25] I didn’t have time for the gym. And yet the president of the United States back then did have time to give to you.
Nilesh Parmar: But [00:48:30] again, I think you just have to be a little bit protected about yourself, because everything [00:48:35] you’ve worked for and I and the way I look at it, it’s also not just my assets, it’s the assets of the family [00:48:40] and what’s been built up.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah, exactly.
Nilesh Parmar: I should choose where those assets go. It should go to [00:48:45] my nephew. Should go to my sisters.
[TRANSITION]: Um, you got to start.
Rhona Eskander: Thinking about your will and stuff. It’s all very complicated. [00:48:50]
[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but.
Payman Langroudi: Look, the Duke of Westminster just got married. Yes. Yeah, I know babies. Which is. Man, he just.
[TRANSITION]: Got [00:48:55] married. But also, like you.
Payman Langroudi: Can rich people get married every day?
[TRANSITION]: I know, I.
Rhona Eskander: Get that, and they get fucked over all the time as well, and [00:49:00] they.
Nilesh Parmar: Get fucked over.
[TRANSITION]: But yeah, but you.
Nilesh Parmar: Just have to have that conversation with that person.
[TRANSITION]: Correct.
Rhona Eskander: And I think if you’re in a really [00:49:05] loving, safe, secure, like, do you not remember me and you about eight years ago? I think it was [00:49:10] on Facebook. I don’t know if you remember this. We had a conversation or someone put something up about a prenup. [00:49:15] I think you did. And I said, and at this time, I was single. I was like, I don’t see anything wrong. [00:49:20] Like, if you love the person, you can have the conversation and all these girls that are kicking off being like, if anyone [00:49:25] asks me to prenup, I would like, I’m gone and all this stuff. And I was like, guys like, it’s [00:49:30] like the freezing the egg thing. It’s like an insurance policy. Hopefully you never need the fucking [00:49:35] action it, but you don’t know what life is going to throw at you, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And right, [00:49:40] I know we’ve talked about relationships like pretty much the whole way through this podcast, but I do want to ask [00:49:45] you a bit about dentistry if that’s okay with you. So obviously you’re one of the most successful dentists [00:49:50] in the industry. You know, you, um, pave the way for a lot of dentists, including myself [00:49:55] and my embryonic stages of my career. What was your darkest moment in dentistry? [00:50:00]
Nilesh Parmar: Oh. Good question. Um, us getting struck off, I think, was probably my darkest moment. [00:50:05] So in the and that happened very, very early on. So, um, I had [00:50:10] a GDC case, um, which I said I was going to talk about, but what the hell? It’s out there. Yeah, I had a GDC case. [00:50:15] Um, and if you Google it, it’s really hard to find now because there’s so much other stuff about me and [00:50:20] there wasn’t anything patient related. It was just something very silly. And when you’re young, you make stupid [00:50:25] mistakes. And that was deep. And and I think there’s been quite a few dentists or well [00:50:30] known dentists who’ve gone through that, who’ve talked about it and written about it. And I think I always [00:50:35] used to make a joke that if I won the lottery, I would spend my time trying to sort [00:50:40] out our regulatory body and how dentists if I just didn’t give a shit, right. If [00:50:45] I had, if I had enough money to do what I want to do, which would be to race cars around [00:50:50] the world and give up dentistry, I would put aside a considerable sum of money [00:50:55] and get some people on board to say, right, the way we regulate [00:51:00] dentists or the way we look at dentists when potentially they’ve done something wrong, even if they haven’t, [00:51:05] is so detrimental to their mental health. And we have had so many [00:51:10] dentists commit suicide because they’ve had GDC cases. And there was one dentist that he had a case going on [00:51:15] for two years.
Nilesh Parmar: Nothing happened at the end of it, but he had this little sword [00:51:20] of Damocles dangling across his head for two years. It’s really difficult. Delivered [00:51:25] when I was in that position. It was done after about six months or so, and [00:51:30] I didn’t have any family. I didn’t have any kids to look after a mortgage or anything at that time. [00:51:35] It was really early on. And, um, it was almost like getting in trouble for [00:51:40] being drunk and stupid and sending a few stupid emails. But, um, what [00:51:45] I found really difficult was once the case was finished, you think, okay, [00:51:50] it’s done. I can move on with my life. And you and I have both been the victim of [00:51:55] bullying as well. Yeah, and you’d get online trolling. And there was. There was a point where [00:52:00] I almost thought to myself, I’m going to go to this person’s house and I’m going to kick the shit out of it. I’m [00:52:05] actually going to go there and physically knock him out, and you would never do it. But [00:52:10] you became so angry at these people, you think, how dare they say these things? They’ve [00:52:15] never met me. They don’t know anything about me. And then, you know, I used to do. And I think that’s [00:52:20] also rife in our profession. I think it’s rife in any profession is jealousy and his online [00:52:25] trolling and bullying. And we don’t control it. And I think there’s Shiraz. So Shiraz Khan, [00:52:30] who I’m very friendly with, he was he was being trolled online, really. [00:52:35] And I remember I was the only one because I sort of got PTSD from what happened to me. [00:52:40]
Nilesh Parmar: And Shiraz and I are so close now because of it, because I was the only one that stood up for him and said, you [00:52:45] know what, guys, leave this guy alone. Just back off and leave him alone. And I think we’re now in a position [00:52:50] where we don’t really care what the other people think because we’ve made [00:52:55] it or we’ve we’ve got enough now. We don’t really care. So I don’t have an issue standing [00:53:00] up to bullies anymore. But back then I was very, very meek. I was very quiet. And I remember [00:53:05] there was a well known dentist who actually screenshotted one of my Instagram posts and sent it to my dad [00:53:10] saying, what is your son doing? And it was something to do with a car or like a, you know, the [00:53:15] steering wheel of the car or something. I remember my dad showing this to me, going, who’s this guy? And I said, oh, [00:53:20] he’s, he’s a, he’s a dentist in central London. Um, and um, he’s [00:53:25] just a bit jealous. And my dad said some profanities in, in Hindi and then we kind of left it. And that [00:53:30] online trolling and online bullying I think happened so much more now. It happened so much more in university. [00:53:35] It happens so much more undergraduate because it’s it can be a very, very prolific [00:53:40] way of getting underneath someone’s skin. When we had it, I think it was in its [00:53:45] embryonic stages. No, I mean.
Rhona Eskander: Unfortunately Payman knows already. I still get it all the time because [00:53:50] obviously my profile is not just for dentists, but it’s also out there to the public. But pretty [00:53:55] much most of my trolls are dentists. And the abuse I get and, you know, there was an eminent [00:54:00] person within the industry, which is I’m not going to mention his name, but sometimes when he’s [00:54:05] trolling, they’ll have other dentists be like, what is wrong with this guy? He’s literally an old man. Like heckling [00:54:10] a young girl, like, what is even going on here? And sometimes it makes him look bad. But [00:54:15] like, Payman was like, no, but like, you know, his people will think that he’s like, really cool for, like, calling you. I’m like calling me out [00:54:20] for what? Like my page isn’t to him, you know what I mean? My page is very patient orientated. [00:54:25]
Payman Langroudi: Wait wait wait wait wait the the we talked about this before, [00:54:30] but but the separate arguments about clinical work, [00:54:35] you know that that’s the bucket I would put that in. Yeah. It wasn’t. [00:54:40]
Rhona Eskander: Really I mean this is just.
[TRANSITION]: Offline like.
Payman Langroudi: No I agree with you. Some people use clinical work to bully people. [00:54:45] Yeah they do. That’s that’s right. But let’s separate that out from the other stuff. You showed me where [00:54:50] someone was. I hope your parents die.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No. Like that’s the stuff. Like, if you don’t speak, you don’t speak about the [00:54:55] conflict, the war, then like you deserve to burn in hell, that kind of stuff. But the thing is, I had [00:55:00] three dentists that had sent me messages, didn’t even hide their profile. Like, you know what I mean? Just being like, shut [00:55:05] the f up. Are you being paid by this side and all this stuff? But the point is, I think [00:55:10] it is disgusting. Now people say in every industry you’re going to have bullies and trolls. But I tell you [00:55:15] one thing like my partner works in finance, that ever happened in finance, that is it. They lose their [00:55:20] job. They lose their job. Do you use social media to bully or heckle a colleague? Done. [00:55:25] Even if they’re not in your company, it’s done. It’s done. And the thing is, we are [00:55:30] healthcare professionals. We are under oath. We have a code of conduct and how we should behave towards [00:55:35] patients. Therefore, I think we should have a code of conduct on how we actually communicate with each [00:55:40] other. And I think part of the problem, as you’re saying, is also the profession wanting [00:55:45] to whistle blow on their colleagues for jealousy, which I think happens as well. You know, there’d be like, [00:55:50] there is a dentist who I bumped into and I don’t know if it’s the same one they’re talking about. You know him very well. My [00:55:55] heart broke last week because he had a GDC case. He was whistleblower. One of his colleagues [00:56:00] was a whistleblower, and he went on antidepressants for two years. And [00:56:05] he’s basically left dentistry now because by the end of it, he ended up suing the GDC.
[TRANSITION]: So [00:56:10] he sued.
Rhona Eskander: The GDC for what they put him through because suddenly he wasn’t allowed to work. He had his [00:56:15] own practice. His day was wake up, take his daughter to school and then just sit around. [00:56:20] They they investigated his laptop. They investigated every. Everything right, and [00:56:25] he felt like a criminal. So as a result, he got one of the best barristers. Um, [00:56:30] one of the, the, his indemnity were like, no, no, no. Are you sure you want to see [00:56:35] the GDC? He was like, I am so sure I’m gonna sue. And he won. He won. But the point is, [00:56:40] is now his mental health had been destroyed. He’s a 47 year old man and [00:56:45] he’s leaving. He’s like, I’m done, I am done. And he was a dentist that loved his profession. [00:56:50] So it’s a I think it really does need an overhaul.
Nilesh Parmar: We don’t have that ability [00:56:55] to self regulate our own dentists. So if a dentist is [00:57:00] trolling another dentist, especially if it’s online or whatever, there’s it’s very difficult to do anything [00:57:05] about it. Right. Unless you if you call them out, then that could have repercussions. If other people [00:57:10] get involved, that could have repercussions. And ah, I really would like our governing body [00:57:15] to say, right, we’re now all looking to online trolling. If you’ve got proof that somebody [00:57:20] is trolling, which.
Rhona Eskander: We can.
Nilesh Parmar: Easy. And if you’ve got whatever you need to prove it, then [00:57:25] they really need to be looked at. And I would love for, you know, where we have our little names [00:57:30] on the little list to say this dentist has been suspended for online trolling. I’d just [00:57:35] love if that was on there because and you know, the thing is, whatever you do, whatever [00:57:40] good you do, right, you’ll always get people that will see the bad. And when I did Ice White, there was a [00:57:45] well known specialist in central London who was going around telling people that needles kept the money. [00:57:50] So I kept the profits and the charity companies. Right. Despite the fact that there’s a big picture of me with a check with the owner [00:57:55] of the charity going, here’s the money. Right. And so that made me understand [00:58:00] that you can be the best person in the world, right? But there’ll always be people that will try and get you to roll around [00:58:05] in the mud with them. And there was that Oprah Winfrey quote, isn’t it? Which is just be excellent. [00:58:10] Whatever you do, just be excellent. Just try and rise above it. But you know what?
[TRANSITION]: Sometimes you can’t.
Nilesh Parmar: You don’t want to rise, [00:58:15] but you want to get in the mud and you want to punch that guy in the face.
Payman Langroudi: I want to say a couple of things. I want to say a couple of things. Oh, here we [00:58:20] go. There is this is a symptom of the change from analogue to digital. Yeah. [00:58:25] And and you’re right. You know, you both of you have [00:58:30] social media veterans if you like. Yes. People almost almost native to social media [00:58:35] understand what a troll is. What what what the rules of engagement [00:58:40] are. Yeah. But some of these older guys, you know, they weren’t they weren’t in the social [00:58:45] media age. It’s basically I’m going to say what’s in my head. But I think.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah I.
Payman Langroudi: Disagree. [00:58:50] Yeah. Now your your solution to this issue [00:58:55] this problem or yours. Yeah. Of you know having the GDC involved. Yeah. It’s [00:59:00] not necessarily a better world. Yeah. It’s not necessarily just imagine this accountability. Wait a minute. [00:59:05] This guy said I don’t think your approach on that composite was right for the sake.
[TRANSITION]: Of I mean, [00:59:10] he didn’t.
Payman Langroudi: Say for the sake of the argument, for the sake of the argument is I don’t think your approach on that composite was right. You say? Yes, [00:59:15] it was, I think I think I did this and then he says something slightly, slightly off. Yeah. Now what we’re [00:59:20] going to do, we’re going to, we’re going to send it to the judiciary.
[TRANSITION]: You know.
Rhona Eskander: It’s not that kind of trolling like you’ve seen like [00:59:25] screenshotting and ridiculing your lifestyle screenshotting and ridiculing the way [00:59:30] that you look, making fun of, you know, that bullying tactics. I’m not saying whether they agree [00:59:35] or not with your bonding protocol. You know, your implant protocol, like we’re talking about things that are [00:59:40] deeply personal.
[TRANSITION]: You know, within.
Payman Langroudi: A practice, bullying goes on a hundred times a day. You know, all [00:59:45] the time.
[TRANSITION]: It happens all the time.
Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. I hear what you’re saying. Like it’s [00:59:50] the same argument, like with, you know, do we put criminals in prison because it doesn’t like most criminals when [00:59:55] they’ve released.
[TRANSITION]: Less GDC, not more? No, no. What I mean.
Rhona Eskander: But I think there is accountability, right? [01:00:00] Because although like the GDC, the law firms, etc., to [01:00:05] some degree make a lot of dentists behave in line with patients [01:00:10] because there’s always that fear that things that your job is on the line. So if we regulate people’s behaviour [01:00:15] online, we therefore make people accountable for their actions. They will think twice [01:00:20] before they type. Or there could be some kind of guideline like you should like [01:00:25] treat your colleagues with respect if you have a genuine concern about something, blah blah blah. [01:00:30] But listen, we’re not going to resolve this now. Neelasha is going to become a multi-billionaire. I sought out the GDC. We’ve decided [01:00:35] that. Okay.
[TRANSITION]: Tell me about.
Payman Langroudi: Your political ambitions, because I remember that was a thing [01:00:40] for a while and I remember it was conservatives. Surely you’re not.
Nilesh Parmar: Still are. [01:00:45] It’s absolute shambles, isn’t it? Yeah. You know, yesterday Keir Starmer said I [01:00:50] do go to an NHS dentist but I’m seeing privately because they don’t see NHS [01:00:55] patients.
[TRANSITION]: Dude, you don’t.
Nilesh Parmar: Even understand how the health service.
[TRANSITION]: Works. Yeah.
Nilesh Parmar: So we’ve got no [01:01:00] hope basically. Um political ambitions. Yeah. There always was. [01:01:05] I mean, I really love that sort of stuff. But for me it’s it’ll be something a bit later [01:01:10] on. I think not now. I think there’s a lot of good that we can do, [01:01:15] especially in our profession, which I think kind of gets sidelined. Right, especially in as a political [01:01:20] hot potato. And nobody really cares. Nobody really deals with it. Nothing really. Changes. We’ve had the same [01:01:25] system. I mean, I think NHS entry, if it was handled properly, [01:01:30] could be the envy of the world because the clinicians we have a very, [01:01:35] very good and you’ve got clinicians who will work in the health service. If they’re remunerated a [01:01:40] fair amount. That doesn’t mean it has to be a crazy amount. But you’ve got you’ve got that. Most of the dentistry in the UK [01:01:45] is NHS dentistry, right? It’s just over 50%, I think, in the last numbers. So if you [01:01:50] had good amount of money thrown at it then yeah, you could do something special.
Payman Langroudi: There’s no more money going into [01:01:55] dentistry, let’s face that.
Nilesh Parmar: But the thing is, if the money.
Payman Langroudi: So that’s a reallocation question.
[TRANSITION]: Well, if it’s about.
Nilesh Parmar: They [01:02:00] put about a billion in right. For that I think that’s about £1 billion.
[TRANSITION]: I think it’s 2%.
Payman Langroudi: Of health spending [01:02:05] is. Yeah.
Nilesh Parmar: But you see I think it’s where the priorities lie. And is it something that we’re going [01:02:10] to sort out. No. But it’s something I’d like to be a part of at some point just to try and improve the lives of dentists, [01:02:15] improve the lives of nurses, hygienists and also the patients. Because at the end of the day, right, [01:02:20] we’re here to help people. And if we can make a positive impact [01:02:25] on somebody’s oral health, which I think has such a big deal with the rest of the body that we know, then maybe [01:02:30] it’s something we need to look at. And I still see NHS patients. I’ve got loads of little old ladies that I still see. I do [01:02:35] get the odd pro bono case like Rona, and you just try and help people because if we don’t [01:02:40] help them, nobody else will help them. And sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s karma as well. [01:02:45] Right. You want to help people and you feel as if that’s going to come around. I think some of my most [01:02:50] happiest moments have been helping those patients smile and eat and talk, and they’ll send you pictures of the wedding [01:02:55] or pictures of them with the grandkids or whatever. And it it hits a spot that nothing else does [01:03:00] this.
Payman Langroudi: Well, let’s finish with karma again. Yeah, because I’ll tell you where [01:03:05] the problem I’ve got with karma. Two things really. One, it seems a bit selfish. [01:03:10] Yeah, that I’m doing this so that something comes back to me. Yeah. [01:03:15] If you really believe it does. Right. Um, the second thing is I, [01:03:20] I fully accept doing nice things ends up with you getting nice stuff. A bag [01:03:25] in a in a obvious way. In a practical way. But when I say, do you believe [01:03:30] in karma? I’m not saying that. I’m not saying, hey, she came over, I was nice to you and [01:03:35] gave you a coffee. Next time I call you, you’ll be nice to me. It’s not that karma is some sort of supernatural. [01:03:40] Thing where I don’t know, I [01:03:45] found I found £20 on the floor. Instead of handing it in, I spent it on something. That thing ended [01:03:50] up ruining my life. And that kind of karma. Yeah, is what I know you [01:03:55] do.
Nilesh Parmar: Pretty much Payman.
[TRANSITION]: I think too much, Steve. Just do good and good things. [01:04:00] It’s not a hinduistic I’m doing good. But yeah, I get it.
Rhona Eskander: And I love that. I think.
[TRANSITION]: Hinduism [01:04:05] and Buddhism, the difference.
Payman Langroudi: That you’ve given money to charity. Yeah. Yeah. You know.
[TRANSITION]: To [01:04:10] Lesvos.
Rhona Eskander: Many times.
Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Although I find that less, less interesting [01:04:15] than it sounds.
[TRANSITION]: Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: I don’t do it for interest. Payman like I do it for like [01:04:20] I said, like I. And again, for me, for me, this is much [01:04:25] more important than reposting a middle eastern post. I have been going for many years [01:04:30] to refugee camps. I’ve been going to refugee camps. Why? Because I have a skill. [01:04:35] Is it for you can help people? No, because I genuinely want to help people.
[TRANSITION]: If you.
Payman Langroudi: Genuinely want to help people, [01:04:40] why don’t you donate a month’s salary and send 3030 dentists to.
Rhona Eskander: I [01:04:45] have, I.
[TRANSITION]: Have you’re talking about.
Rhona Eskander: That book my partner told me.
[TRANSITION]: About, you know, the same.
Payman Langroudi: Week that you’re spending [01:04:50] in Lesbos you could spend in Chelsea, make enough money to send five dentists to Lesbos. Yeah, because if you really cared.
[TRANSITION]: But [01:04:55] also people know.
Rhona Eskander: Because I also think, of course I care about people.
[TRANSITION]: If you really cared about.
Rhona Eskander: I [01:05:00] really care about people. Let me finish. But yeah, the point is [01:05:05] right as well. It’s like my grandfather is half Palestinian. Right? So meeting like Middle Eastern, [01:05:10] Syrian, Palestinian refugees is something that I feel very connected to. And there is something [01:05:15] much more profound about that. And, you know, being with those children and be and because [01:05:20] I have a large following, I am influencing a lot of dentists to go out there, which is what I do. [01:05:25] And you know that.
Payman Langroudi: Good, good, good, good answer.
[TRANSITION]: But it’s.
Payman Langroudi: Effective [01:05:30] altruism. Have you heard about it?
[TRANSITION]: So and I also.
Nilesh Parmar: Think, you know, it takes more hard work [01:05:35] for her to go.
[TRANSITION]: Herself. Correct.
Nilesh Parmar: As opposed.
[TRANSITION]: To just throwing money at it, just writing.
Nilesh Parmar: A check [01:05:40] because that there’s a risk involved. You know, there’s time out. There’s time out of her life. [01:05:45] There’s a travel, there’s this, there’s that. It’s ruining her routine. So that’s why I think we can’t [01:05:50] just write checks and we can give. We can.
Payman Langroudi: But my point is, though. Yeah. You know. No, no, [01:05:55] you could drive this truck and give give food to the hungry. Yeah. And there’s a power [01:06:00] dynamic in that. Yeah. That if I didn’t drive this truck and I didn’t give the food, they [01:06:05] wouldn’t eat today. Yeah. And this, of course you get something out of it yourself. [01:06:10] Right. And all all I’m saying is, yeah, that a lot of charity work can be seen as you’re [01:06:15] doing it for yourself.
[TRANSITION]: Rather than totally.
Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing. Yeah. [01:06:20] I’m saying that’s what you’re doing.
[TRANSITION]: That’s what some.
Rhona Eskander: People say about Gandhi and Mother Teresa, you know? But at the end of the day, they [01:06:25] affected a lot of people. So I’m here.
Nilesh Parmar: At the end.
[TRANSITION]: Result. Thank you, thank you.
Nilesh Parmar: It doesn’t matter if somebody’s [01:06:30] going there just to do this, but the fact that the kid gets fed exactly is the [01:06:35] end result.
[TRANSITION]: I know, but.
Payman Langroudi: More kids would be fed if that was the thing we were really measuring. [01:06:40] Two more kids would be fed by horsetail in Chelsea and working her butt off [01:06:45] in Chelsea and and playing loads of other people. But then to go. But his hourly rate is a lot lower. [01:06:50]
Nilesh Parmar: And then look at it if you’re if you have a control freak like me and Rona, right. For me, I [01:06:55] know that the kid will get be fed better if I feed the kid.
Payman Langroudi: Somebody professional like [01:07:00] someone who feeds kids. That’s a job he does.
[TRANSITION]: Listen, at the end of the day, I mean, at the end of the day, go back and forth [01:07:05] on that one.
Rhona Eskander: At the end of the day, you need to write a book on this because I’m not convinced and we [01:07:10] are running out of time. So, Niklas, it has been such a pleasure having you [01:07:15] today on my movies and hearing a different side to you. And thank you so much for your vulnerability. [01:07:20] I’m sure it will help a lot of dentists. We’ve all heard. You know, how you’ve become one of the most [01:07:25] successful dentists, but I think it’s so important to have other dentists inspired on conversations that [01:07:30] we don’t have on the regular. So thank you very much. My pleasure.
Payman Langroudi: Perfect. Thanks a lot for coming in, buddy. Thanks.