Yusra: Speaking up for equality of all human beings is politicised. This is not a [00:00:05] political matter. This is humanity. And as health care professionals in particular, [00:00:10] where we are trained to be humanitarians, where we go into health care because [00:00:15] we care for others, this is incumbent upon us to speak up for our profession, for [00:00:20] our colleagues, for children, for innocent civilians who are trapped. And if you look back [00:00:25] 76 years ago, World War two, prior to that, when human beings were being [00:00:30] killed in their masses, people were silent, turned another cheek and stayed quiet because [00:00:35] they had privilege. It wasn’t them being killed and they were afraid to speak up. And also it was legal. [00:00:40] So just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s right. And if it isn’t for the courage of [00:00:45] people to stand up against human oppression, there would be no change.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is mind movers moving [00:01:00] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:01:05] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and [00:01:10] Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Welcome to this week’s [00:01:15] episode of Mind Movers, The Mental Health Podcast. As a little side from Dental [00:01:20] Leaders, which is my favourite. And today we have doctor Yusra Al-mukhtar [00:01:25] and it’s so exciting because she’s actually her sister Zainab, who is a good friend of mine [00:01:30] and her mother, Doctor Farida. Yeah, she has also been on the [00:01:35] podcast on the Dental Leaders one. So we have a whole family gathering coming here. So scroll [00:01:40] back to the previous podcasts with them because people love those ones [00:01:45] and I think you’re a real force as a family doctor. Yasra is an award [00:01:50] winning facial aesthetician who’s actually a dentist, and we’ll get into that. So she’s GDC [00:01:55] registered. She has an award winning practice in Liverpool, which practices facial aesthetics [00:02:00] and dentistry. She’s also a mother of two, married to a psychiatrist. [00:02:05] Yes. So medical because the Arabs like to marry my [00:02:10] dad and mom, doctors and everything like that. So I’m well versed with that. And today we’re going to have a [00:02:15] really interesting discussion. The reason why I wanted to invite you on the podcast, because I don’t often [00:02:20] invite health care professionals, is because I think that her platform offers more than just [00:02:25] facial aesthetics and dentistry. And what I mean by that, it is a platform [00:02:30] that represents humanitarian causes. It also talks about beauty, fashion and [00:02:35] so forth. And I think that when people show that diversity, they develop a different [00:02:40] kind of following. And you can have very interesting conversations about vulnerability, [00:02:45] about hope, about love, about dreams, about controversy. So Doctor Jester, for me [00:02:50] was the perfect person to invite. So welcome.

Yusra: Thank you so much. What a lovely introduction. Thank you.

Rhona Eskander: I told you. [00:02:55]

Yusra: Yes.

Rhona Eskander: I always make sure that I. I speak the truth when I’m speaking about. [00:03:00] The only thing that.

Yusra: I would add is I have a clinic in London and I report.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. Well, you know what? To be fair, I have [00:03:05] actually visited your clinic in London, but I just assumed when you had opened up the flagship in Liverpool that you’d left [00:03:10] that. Oh, no, you’ve still got that. So yeah. Okay. Amazing. So [00:03:15] yes, I like to start things from the beginning. Could you please tell us a little bit [00:03:20] about your background? You know, where you’re from, where your family are from and how you ended [00:03:25] up in the UK.

Yusra: So my dad is from Iraq. He’s actually half Iraqi, [00:03:30] half Azerbaijani. My mum is, um, Yemeni and Turkish, and [00:03:35] we were born in Scotland. Myself, Zainab and I were born in Scotland. So as we gettle [00:03:40] and stayed there until I was six and then moved to London, stayed in London until I [00:03:45] was about nine, and then we moved to England because my mum was a dental surgeon as well, and her passion [00:03:50] and interest and focus was implantology. So 30 years ago, I’m [00:03:55] giving away my age now that dental implants was not a thing in the Middle East. It was not a thing in Oman. [00:04:00] So she had an opportunity to bring it to Oman. And so obviously she didn’t [00:04:05] say no to that opportunity. And we went there and it was incredible, like best years of my life. We stayed [00:04:10] there for about three years and then came back to London and [00:04:15] stayed here until after I got married and then, you know, moved begrudgingly [00:04:20] to Liverpool.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, wow. I was like thinking, you have such a nice international accent. [00:04:25] I do love a Scottish accent. But, you know, I definitely picked up I came here when I was five, [00:04:30] but I was like, I sounds so English. I would say, that’s amazing. And [00:04:35] your parents, why did they choose the UK?

Yusra: Oh great question. [00:04:40] So my dad was a surgeon in Iraq okay. And he [00:04:45] worked there and did a lot of his training there. And over there they had something called conscription, where [00:04:50] at the time you had to be enrolled in the army. So he was an army doctor, but [00:04:55] he had the opportunity to study abroad. So he went to Dubai and he studied there. And then he [00:05:00] came to the UK to complete his studies. And my mum had done her dental [00:05:05] surgery, her undergraduate degree in Romania, it was called Somatology. And [00:05:10] after that she moved to the UK because her brother was a surgeon in the UK [00:05:15] and he said come here. So she came here and she actually she met my dad while they were both uncle. [00:05:20] My mum did oral maxillofacial surgery like my parents literally, she says she was on call, she fell [00:05:25] asleep in the mess and the doctor’s mess and she woke up and there was an Arab man staring at her. And that was my dad’s. [00:05:30]

Rhona Eskander: Love it. I love that so much. And how was life growing up in the UK for you? [00:05:35] Well, Scotland first actually it’s not even the UK.

Yusra: Amazing. I absolutely love Scotland. We still have a house [00:05:40] in Scotland. I have a real affinity to Scottish people. I identify as kind of Scottish as well. [00:05:45] Um, I love that. Yeah. I think, you know, if they ever break away, then I’m going to Scotland. Yeah. [00:05:50] Like that free health, free child free education for our children. So [00:05:55] yeah, I mean I loved it, I enjoyed it, but I was six and then in the UK [00:06:00] it was all great. When I went to Ireland, that was great as well. And I kind of knew that I wanted to go [00:06:05] into healthcare from quite a young age. Partly, I guess, because of exposure to my, my what [00:06:10] my parents were doing. They were always in the service of others and that impacted me. [00:06:15] But also, I had an accident when I was eight years old and, um, that ended up [00:06:20] causing a facial deformity because I cut my lip from this corner right down [00:06:25] to my chin. So I had a really prominent scar, and people would always ask me about it, literally until I [00:06:30] had scar treatment. So my whole life people would ask me, and I remember actually, after the accident, [00:06:35] I wrote a letter to the surgeon and I said, I’m going to do this one day. I’m going to help others. So [00:06:40] I knew from a young age that I wanted to go into health care. And then when I came back to [00:06:45] the UK from Oman, I went to a all girls school, a muslim [00:06:50] school in northwest London. Okay. Um, and then I went to a Jewish school [00:06:55] for my, um, my A Levels in Golders Green. Which [00:07:00] one?

Rhona Eskander: I knew all the like.

Yusra: Henrietta.

Rhona Eskander: Barnett. Oh, my God know it. I was so not smart enough to get in there. [00:07:05] They definitely rejected me. I was definitely not. But I knew Henrietta Barnett really well. Yeah, because it was [00:07:10] the dream. My parents really wanted to go. I was just not. I was just not a smart child. I had to work really hard. But, you know, I made [00:07:15] it when I made it to school, but, um. That’s incredible. So you must have been incredibly academic child, because [00:07:20] Henrietta Barnett was very academic. Yeah.

Yusra: It was competitive to get into it. I was I mean, was I academic? [00:07:25] Not not until I moved to Iowa. And I think up until then I was kind of [00:07:30] climbing trees, jumping off walls, not really interested in academic academia at all. And I think [00:07:35] the turning point was to two parts of my story. Turning point one was when [00:07:40] I must have been around nine, eight, nine before [00:07:45] the accident. And, uh, was it before? Maybe it was, no, it was after. And I came [00:07:50] home and my mum said, actually, we got in the car, my mum said, okay, show me your report. And Zainab, my sister, showed the report and [00:07:55] she was like, you know, she was studious at that time and she got A’s and B’s. And [00:08:00] then my mum said, show me a report. And mine had like season B’s. And she was like, well, okay. And she didn’t say anything. [00:08:05] She didn’t reprimand me or shame me, literally. She just went and I said, mama, I [00:08:10] think they swapped my reports in mistake. And she was like, oh, okay. It’s a mistake. [00:08:15] So smart, by the way.

Yusra: Like, I really look up to her and how she raised [00:08:20] us because she knew that I was embarrassed. That’s why [00:08:25] I said, this is not my report. I felt shame, and so she recognised that [00:08:30] immediately and went, okay, that’s fine. And we used to go and we used to go to McDonald’s after [00:08:35] getting our reports as like a, a treat. And I thought, I’m [00:08:40] still going to go to McDonald’s. And she said, let’s go to McDonald’s. I was like, great. So we went to McDonald’s, [00:08:45] came home, and then my dad, Serge and Arab, you know, hierarchy. Anything less [00:08:50] than 100% is not good enough. And, um, bless his heart. And he [00:08:55] came home and he looked at my report and he goes, why is this your report card? And I licked it and ran [00:09:00] upstairs. And my mom said to him, Amir, his name is Amir. Amir, don’t tell [00:09:05] her off. She already knows and she’s going to do this on her own. And so me as an eight year old heard, [00:09:10] oh, I need to fix this on my own.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Yusra: So that’s when I started to hold myself [00:09:15] accountable and actually start to care about academia. Before that, I [00:09:20] really was just literally, I’m not even joking. Climbing up walls and getting stuck in trees. Yeah, I was very sporty. [00:09:25] Um, and then I think then shortly after that we moved to online and in [00:09:30] online there was an entrance exam. Yeah. And you know, before that I didn’t really know [00:09:35] much about exams. So when we had the entrance exam we got in. But it was very difficult [00:09:40] to challenge because you had to. My mum had a decision where she could either [00:09:45] have put us in the expatriate classes, where we’d learn everything in the British curriculum, or [00:09:50] in the classes that everyone else went to where they would learn history, geography [00:09:55] in Arabic, which was hard for us. And she was like, no, you can do it. And so I thought, oh [00:10:00] no, again, we’re going to have to do it. Because there was this, there was this unwavering [00:10:05] belief. It was, yeah, you’re going to fix this, you’re gonna be fine. And so I just that [00:10:10] I think is, is when I became super academic and studious, amazing.

Rhona Eskander: So I think [00:10:15] it’s interesting that you say that your mom was that helpful. Buffer, [00:10:20] I think it’s really important because what I’ve had my dad on the podcast as well, [00:10:25] but there was definitely like this thing of my parents couldn’t afford to send us to private school, so they worked really hard [00:10:30] to send us to private school. So you had to do well. It just wasn’t an option. And you often see, like [00:10:35] there’s this Arabic guy that I actually follow and he does this meme, and he was like, point of view, when your [00:10:40] parents see, you get 93%, he’s like, where did the 7% go? You know, like it’s [00:10:45] just classic, you know? So I absolutely love that you’re on another podcast. [00:10:50] Um, I heard you speaking about your father and where he was from, and [00:10:55] how nerve wracking it was, because at one point he actually had to leave the UK and return back home. Do [00:11:00] you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Yusra: Yeah. So that was all after [00:11:05] the Iraq war, the invasion of Iraq, which happened after 911. [00:11:10] So I think I was must have been around 16 at the time. And I remember [00:11:15] the country became very polarised and anti-Islamic sentiment started to happen because it [00:11:20] was attributed to these terrorists who were from an Islamic background. And I remember walking [00:11:25] in the streets to Henrietta Barnett and being told to f off back to my country. Wow. And being really confused [00:11:30] as the 16 year old thinking, what did they mean? And where? Where is [00:11:35] my country? I was born here. Where do I f off back to? It was pretty.

Rhona Eskander: Post 911.

Yusra: This [00:11:40] is post 911.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine Was 911 also difficult or not during that time. [00:11:45] Yeah it was.

Yusra: Difficult because of the the it was an extremist terror attack. [00:11:50] It was difficult for every human being. Yes. Scary. Yeah. But then what also happened [00:11:55] was stigmatisation. You know suddenly it was if you see a man with a beard and a bag, be careful. [00:12:00] And a stereotype started to form and that stereotype continued and progressed into if [00:12:05] you see a woman with a scarf, she also doesn’t belong. She’s also out there, you know. And so [00:12:10] I think I and a lot of Muslim women who wear a scarf [00:12:15] and can’t hide their faith were subjected to attacks. So and then [00:12:20] there was this claim of weapons of mass destruction, which later was found out to be a lie, [00:12:25] but based on that, Iraq was invaded and when it was invaded, one of the, [00:12:30] you know, lots and lots of bombing, obviously carpet bombing and lots of people were killed [00:12:35] and there was a looting and chaos and and so on. And there was a destruction of the health care system. [00:12:40] Now, my dad’s a surgeon, so I think he immediately felt a sense of responsibility [00:12:45] and duty to help. But also it hits really close to home because his brother, [00:12:50] during this chaos and anarchy and, you know, jails people busted out of jails, [00:12:55] criminals that should have been in jail were no longer in jail. People were looting. It was just chaos in Iraq [00:13:00] and kidnapped my uncle. So his brother and held him for five [00:13:05] days. I said in my podcast story and I was corrected. It was five days and he was tortured and beaten. [00:13:10] And then the brothers all came together and raised money to get him out because he was held [00:13:15] ransom.

Yusra: And that’s what they were doing at the time. They were taking people that they felt had money or [00:13:20] had affiliation of people who could pay and hurt them and held them ransom. So [00:13:25] he was one of the lucky ones who who lived and he was dumped in, [00:13:30] you know, in the middle of the desert and really left for dead, picked up by someone random [00:13:35] taken to his house. And his family didn’t even recognise him. His wife and his children didn’t recognise him because he was so [00:13:40] badly beaten and swollen and bruised. And so I think that was really traumatic. That was traumatic for us, [00:13:45] that was traumatic for my father. And they were then expatriated and brought to the UK as [00:13:50] refugees and lived with us for a while. So we heard kind of by proxy, what it [00:13:55] was like in war. You know, my cousin talks about how the house, you know, the lights went off and the bombs [00:14:00] went off, we’re going off and the windows shattered. And how they looked outside the window and they saw dead bodies on [00:14:05] the ground. These were the things that we were hearing about at that young age. And shortly after [00:14:10] that, my dad took a sabbatical from the UK, his position as a surgeon and, [00:14:15] um, moved to Iraq to work as a [00:14:20] health advisor in the largest medical city complex in Baghdad, and to basically rebuild [00:14:25] it. But even that was dangerous. You know, every time a bomb went off, did your.

Rhona Eskander: Family react to that decision that [00:14:30] your mom and you guys.

Yusra: So it wasn’t discussed with us [00:14:35] as children. We weren’t like it wasn’t an opinion of, you know, are you okay [00:14:40] with us going? It was obviously a discussion had happened between himself and my mum, and my [00:14:45] mum was supportive but scared. So she lost a lot of weight while he was away. She [00:14:50] had to raise four children by herself. She didn’t know if her husband’s coming back every time a [00:14:55] bomb went off. She didn’t know if her husband was dead. So we’d always be waiting for a call to say, is he still there or [00:15:00] not? And in that time he had bodyguards because he worked as a prominent, you know, he’s a health advisor [00:15:05] and his bodyguard was killed. So it was real, real anarchy. He was gardening [00:15:10] outside his office, and he opened the door and he was gone. And they found him shot dead in the basement of the hospital. So [00:15:15] these are the kinds of things that was the norm. And so it was a really stressful time.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:15:20] really appreciate you sharing that. And one of the reasons that I ask is because I kind of had a memory blank. So I was [00:15:25] actually born in Saudi, which people don’t know. So my parents met in the hospital in Saudi similar, and [00:15:30] we lived in Aramco where I was born. So again, it was like that community complex sort of life. [00:15:35] Then we moved to Bahrain because that’s where my dad got his second job and my sister was born in Bahrain. And actually it was during the [00:15:40] Gulf War. And I remember hearing the raids and I [00:15:45] remember hearing like the sirens and stuff as a child. And all of a sudden at school, I was running down the street [00:15:50] with gas masks, but I had this like memory blank, and the memories only started coming up quite [00:15:55] recently. So it’s really funny, as children, how we guard ourselves from trauma. Like I [00:16:00] just didn’t remember.

Payman Langroudi: Totally.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s pretty traumatic. Imagine being at school, which me and my sister [00:16:05] were. I must have been about four years old. Tania was like one. And [00:16:10] you remember that? And I still. And I remember my nanny, like, coming and carrying her and [00:16:15] the masks being put on and stuff, you know, and we were just living like that. And [00:16:20] obviously when I came to London for many, many years, I just didn’t think about [00:16:25] it. And now I have memories and I can remember quite distinctly running, But [00:16:30] it’s funny because I find [00:16:35] when I’m in physical situations of stress. So, for example, I [00:16:40] don’t know, like in a car that’s driving very fast or [00:16:45] skydiving or bungee jumping, I actually don’t get scared, but I’m more scared of [00:16:50] emotional threats to my safety. So I’m the kind of person that will panic about how people [00:16:55] react. If I upset them, about confrontation, about what people think of me as, [00:17:00] you know, all these different things. But when it comes to physical stress, and I wonder somehow if that is related [00:17:05] to the types of things that I’ve grown up with. So that’s a.

Yusra: Question for Hassan’s [00:17:10] psychiatrist.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I absolutely love the fact that he is a psychiatrist. Did [00:17:15] that teach you a lot in your relationship.

Yusra: People always ask [00:17:20] me, does he read my mind? And I say, I wish, I [00:17:25] wish because the socks still end up on the side of the bed and not in the washing [00:17:30] basket. So if you read my mind, that wouldn’t happen. Um, but he’s a very, very patient, understanding [00:17:35] man. You know, he’s incredible. And he’s taught me a lot in raising our children as well. [00:17:40] And his kind of his passion is child psychiatry and I love it. Trauma management. He deals with a lot of children [00:17:45] who’ve undergone undergone trauma and adults who had unresolved trauma as [00:17:50] children. So that’s his speciality.

Rhona Eskander: And does he like combining the medical [00:17:55] aspect with the psychological? Because very much my experience with psychiatrists before have been [00:18:00] very much like let’s go down medication route, which I think is a bandaid and not getting down to the root [00:18:05] cause of things. So I’d like to think psychiatrists with the new innovation of [00:18:10] thinking like Gab or Matt, who I know that you’re a fan of, um, that they’re actually [00:18:15] understanding. We can’t do that. We can’t just numb people.

Payman Langroudi: We kind of their role. Right? I mean, if [00:18:20] you want to talk to someone, you can talk to a therapist.

Rhona Eskander: You still maybe can help us understand.

Payman Langroudi: That psychiatrist [00:18:25] is kind of to to to bridge the medical with the.

Yusra: So psychiatry is a medical [00:18:30] speciality. But the I think this is an older generation versus younger generation [00:18:35] psychiatry bridge so to speak. So he always says I’m very psychologically [00:18:40] minded psychiatrist. He will sit there for hours talking to his patients, and [00:18:45] I think he’s quite against just putting this bandaid on. He describes it in the same way that you just have. [00:18:50] You cannot treat body without understanding mind, and you can’t treat mind without understanding Bodhi. [00:18:55] And that holistic mindset is something that I have incorporated into my facial setting practice. [00:19:00] And that’s how he also views his psychiatry. So when he’s treating patients, it isn’t [00:19:05] what’s your symptoms? Your symptoms? It’s let’s go back to the source. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Which I think is massively [00:19:10] under misunderstood within our profession as a whole because we constantly [00:19:15] and I think as scientists, we treat it in a very scientific way. There’s [00:19:20] a problem. Try to find something that’s tangible and that you can see as the solution. And [00:19:25] when we look into it deeper, we recognise now that there are so many different factors [00:19:30] that contribute to somebody’s well-being. I think there are more severe diseases. And unfortunately, [00:19:35] when you’ve got to the point of like severe bipolar or severe schizophrenia or any of those [00:19:40] diseases, that’s when you have to know that you have to actually implement different modes of [00:19:45] treatment to also protect the public, protect people around, etc. and I think that’s where it becomes a little bit more complicated. [00:19:50]

Yusra: I mean, that’s a medical that’s a medical diagnosis and may require medical intervention. And also [00:19:55] adults are different to children. Correct. When you’re dealing with an adult mind that has already set and has preset [00:20:00] schemas and experiences, it’s a lot harder to reverse engineer [00:20:05] when you have a child who’s undergone trauma, you can help them to understand that trauma and not [00:20:10] manifest it so that it so that it means something and and ends up incorporating [00:20:15] and and impacting their life decisions. So if you get in there early, you can actually in his view, [00:20:20] and this is what he says is change the trajectory of that child’s life so that the trauma [00:20:25] doesn’t define them, so that psychosis or that bipolar may have [00:20:30] been initiated by a trauma or triggered by a trauma. It may be an a hormonal [00:20:35] imbalance, a neurotransmitter imbalance, a whole host of different things. There’s genetic predisposition. But [00:20:40] as dealing with children is different with dealing with adults, because you can [00:20:45] change the line or the path that they go, you know, they travel through. Yeah, for. [00:20:50]

Rhona Eskander: Sure. I was, um, reading. I am still reading the book The Body Keeps the Score. Oh yeah, one [00:20:55] of my favourite books, because it talks a lot about science and all this stuff, and how the body really does react [00:21:00] to the mind, as it were. And unfortunately, as you know, a lot of children aren’t [00:21:05] in a position to be able to have access to these people, and by the time [00:21:10] they can access them, they may have gone into teenagehood or adulthood. And, [00:21:15] you know, that’s a whole different discussion. But it’s so complex because we treat we [00:21:20] try to treat psychiatry, psychology, psychotherapy as almost [00:21:25] a sort of let’s go into a system and dare I say, you know, something like the NHS [00:21:30] where they have limited resources, funds, people, etc. let’s go into like a part where we can [00:21:35] do treat as many people as possible and you can understand they have limited time, money and resources, but it’s [00:21:40] not necessarily the best way because these things are so multifactorial and everybody’s so individual to their response [00:21:45] to these different things. So, um, amazing what your husband’s doing.

Payman Langroudi: So where did you study [00:21:50] dentistry?

Yusra: King’s College London, but I also did an intercalated BSc at Imperial [00:21:55] College London, so I graduated from both.

Payman Langroudi: What were you like?

Yusra: What [00:22:00] was I like as a geek? I was a real geek. Yeah, massively. I was a real [00:22:05] geek. I was really into my studies. I really wanted to do well. And [00:22:10] I did do well. Quite well from undergraduate level. You know, I always had [00:22:15] one coming out thinking I failed, but I would get distinction, which my sister would always like [00:22:20] be like, oh.

Payman Langroudi: Were you at the same time?

Yusra: No, I actually she so she’s [00:22:25] a year older than me, but she took a couple of years out because she [00:22:30] went down. She started doing optometry, and then she decided to, uh, redo [00:22:35] her A-levels. And then she came back and did dentistry. So I ended up being going starting dentistry [00:22:40] first. But because I did an integrated BSc, I then [00:22:45] came down. So we joined years in year five together. Yeah that’s amazing. [00:22:50] Yeah. So so we graduated from dentistry together.

Rhona Eskander: So let’s talk now. So I mean you [00:22:55] clearly was a were a superstar at dentistry. How did you end up in the realm of facial aesthetics? [00:23:00]

Yusra: Great question. So I always knew I wanted to do surgery. I was really inspired [00:23:05] by both my mom and my dad. They were both surgeons, you know.

Rhona Eskander: Why didn’t you choose medicine?

Yusra: Because [00:23:10] I actually was going to choose medicine. And then at 16, I went to [00:23:15] watch my dad in theatre, and he was working in Scotland at the time [00:23:20] and I fainted in theatre. Really? Yeah, I was, I was so embarrassed. He was doing like a hernia operation [00:23:25] and and like, he had all these, you know, the guts and the intestines. And he was talking about what [00:23:30] they were going to cook in the evening. And I’m like, who is this man? That’s fine. And then the next patient, which [00:23:35] is when I fainted, was a patient who he was taking out a cyst on their hands. And of course, they stopped the blood flow in [00:23:40] order to operate. And he was trying to teach me about the tendon and he was like, look. And I’m like, [00:23:45] where’s her blood? And he was like, no, no, don’t worry about that. And I was like, oh my God, she’s dead. And [00:23:50] then I fainted and and then and then I stayed in the hospital for a long time with [00:23:55] him. I was, I was there for like a couple of weeks. But I realised that with medicine, you’re only ever [00:24:00] treating sick patients. You don’t. It’s not like this is exactly.

Rhona Eskander: The reason I chose dentistry, because [00:24:05] I said you always see people when they’re sick. And it’s just I don’t want that, you [00:24:10] know, like the relationships you form in dentistry, like I see patients, yes, you can [00:24:15] change their life, but you see them every six months. You’re doing preventative care like we’re.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we talk about [00:24:20] medicine or dentistry because they’re totally different to each other. I’d say dentistry is closer [00:24:25] to hairdressing. What funny than it is to medicine.

Rhona Eskander: The original dentists were hairdressers. [00:24:30] Did you know this? Like 17th century.

Payman Langroudi: Closer to hairdressing? It is to medicine. Well, because it’s a similar. [00:24:35] It’s a similar life. Yeah. You’ve got people coming in, right? You’re seeing them regularly. [00:24:40] Like everything about it is similar to being a hairdresser, you know.

Yusra: Wow. I mean, I reject. [00:24:45]

Payman Langroudi: What’s wrong with Harrison. What’s wrong with it?

Yusra: There’s nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with being [00:24:50] a doctor. I couldn’t be a different thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a degree, I think.

Rhona Eskander: I think, I [00:24:55] think actually, I actually think we’re specialists in medicine. I think we’re specialists.

Yusra: You’re hyper specialised in [00:25:00] medicine. First of all, it’s not that there is something wrong, but there’s a big differentiation. [00:25:05] Dentistry is a doctorate degree, so to speak. Bachelor of dental [00:25:10] surgery. You come out being a doctor in dental surgery or in dentistry, and [00:25:15] you are treating patients who have an absence of health. You’re treating disease, [00:25:20] you’re nurturing them back to health. You’re dealing with huge risk. It’s [00:25:25] and it’s a skill set. And that’s why you have something called license to cut. You don’t have license to cut tissue not [00:25:30] hair. Hairdressing is completely different. I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:25:35] day to day, the day.

Yusra: To day is very different. How many how many hairdressers pick up a drill and [00:25:40] have to deal with blood and saliva?

Payman Langroudi: You know, I’ve been a dentist. I know what it is [00:25:45] to be a dentist. I think he.

Rhona Eskander: Means the regular, like clients coming in, like so they come in to.

Payman Langroudi: My brother. My [00:25:50] brother’s a doctor. Yeah. His day to day is completely different to yours. Completely different. He [00:25:55] works in the hospital. You’ve seen your dad. You’ve seen your dad again.

Yusra: So doctors can be psychiatrists who have [00:26:00] no who don’t deal with blood. Doctors can be general practitioners who don’t. Anaesthetists, [00:26:05] anaesthetists. There’s a there’s a variation of what being a doctor is. [00:26:10] This is just a hyper specialised form. So I hear your point I just disagree. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. [00:26:15] So let’s talk about facial aesthetics. Like we haven’t got into how you got into that. So yeah. [00:26:20]

Yusra: So then when I qualified from dentistry and I chose dentistry for that [00:26:25] reason for the, for the people aspect, to be honest, because I saw my mum always seeing patients [00:26:30] and understanding their backgrounds and asking them about their relationships and their children and their marriage and their divorce, [00:26:35] that’s that’s unique to dentistry and I guess also hairdressing. Um, and [00:26:40] so then I did, I did, I decided because my mum was doing a lot of implant dentistry, it was really inspired [00:26:45] by that.

Rhona Eskander: And that didn’t make you feel sick, like, you know, you said when you were watching the hernia and the tendons and all that stuff, [00:26:50] you fainted. Yeah, that that was fine. Almost like being in the mouth.

Yusra: I think it was the concept [00:26:55] of the person not speaking. Yeah. It was like it almost felt like they were not there and dead and felt like [00:27:00] a violation. And of course it’s not. It’s curing disease. But that’s how it felt to me. [00:27:05] I didn’t I wasn’t I was too young to understand. And I even struggled when we did dissection when we had to dissect. [00:27:10] I, you know, at the beginning I really struggled with the concept of cutting people who were corpses. [00:27:15] You know, I really, really struggled with that. Um, but anyway, so then after I qualified, [00:27:20] I went into, I went to my mom and I said, teach me how to do implants. And she just said to me, no shortcuts [00:27:25] here. You got to go and do surgery like I did. So that’s what I did. I went and I did [00:27:30] oral maxillofacial surgery, and I ended up doing it and I did an show. Then I [00:27:35] went back and I did something called Cord Development Post. And then I went back and I did another post. [00:27:40] So I spent three and a half years and I became I became speciality doctor in oral surgery. [00:27:45] And then I got pregnant and um, and during my time in the hospital. [00:27:50] So we were treating patients. In fact, you’re treating patients who were trauma patients, road, road [00:27:55] traffic accidents, oral maxillofacial cancers, but also those who have craniofacial, [00:28:00] skeletal, congenital deformities or abnormalities where they might have an underdeveloped [00:28:05] jaw or an overdeveloped jaw.

Yusra: Jewel. And how that is treated surgically is [00:28:10] by breaking the jaw and realigning. Yeah. And this is, you know, when you’re talking about these surgeries, [00:28:15] these are major surgeries, and patients often are young. They’re, you know, they start their journey [00:28:20] when they’re 16 with their orthodontics. It’s very multidisciplinary. And then they have their surgery around [00:28:25] 18. And what was lacking at that time, and I can only speak about my experience [00:28:30] then, not now, but what was lacking at that time was psychological support. So these [00:28:35] patients were having surgery, waking up looking very different. And then we’d [00:28:40] wire their upper and lower jaw together because they couldn’t eat. It had to be completely immobilised, and [00:28:45] they’d lose a heck of a lot of weight because they were sticking to a liquid diet and [00:28:50] they were utterly depressed. Although objectively, they looked better. They were depressed because they no longer [00:28:55] recognise the person that they were looking at in the mirror, and there was no psychological [00:29:00] support or adaptation for that process. And so they come in and [00:29:05] you look at it from, from a dental, aesthetic, maxillofacial point of view and go, oh, brilliant.

Yusra: Yeah, yeah. And [00:29:10] they’d be like, I don’t know who I am, I don’t recognise myself. And it’s not just that that they were [00:29:15] contending, contending with, which was their self-image, it was that everyone around them felt [00:29:20] at liberty to comment because it was such a drastic change. So people would say to them, My God, you had surgery, [00:29:25] you know, and what happened to your face? And so they would have to justify [00:29:30] and explain themselves to other people while they still didn’t understand it. So I’d be that [00:29:35] kind of that doctor holding their hands and supporting them through that. And it just dawned on me one [00:29:40] day, and actually, I didn’t order in the hospital about that, but psychological support and that these patients [00:29:45] need support. They’re young. They’re not fully formed adults in their 30s who can [00:29:50] really contend and understand all the risks and implications. And then I thought, I thought there must [00:29:55] be something that we can do non-surgically that can create similar change, but without [00:30:00] the trauma, without the physical and the mental trauma. Then I started to Google literally, I was uncle when [00:30:05] I was googling online and I read up about non-surgical facial [00:30:10] prosthetics being used not in the field of vanity alone, but [00:30:15] in reconstruction.

Yusra: And you know, I do lots of rhinoplasties [00:30:20] now, non-surgical rhinoplasties. That’s why that’s where it stemmed from. And I and I thought, [00:30:25] but at that time, you know, we’re talking 11, 12, 12 years ago, 13 [00:30:30] years ago. Patient facial aesthetics was Botox. Three areas [00:30:35] nasolabial folds, lip fillers. There was no real global [00:30:40] understanding or discussion about the capacity to create empowering [00:30:45] transformations. Reconstruction. It was more rejuvenation. So anyway, I found [00:30:50] a course that taught doctors and dentists and I thought, okay, this is suited to me. Picks up the phone [00:30:55] and I said, Zainab, let’s go on this course. She was like, ah, Botox, fillers. I don’t know, I don’t think so. I was like, no, [00:31:00] trust me, let’s go with this course. So anyway, I ended up sending all my friends and we went on this course together. [00:31:05] There was like six of us and now everyone has their own clinics. Amazing. And that’s [00:31:10] how I started. But I always knew that my why wasn’t [00:31:15] just wasn’t vanity unknown and wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t satisfied [00:31:20] with the idea of doing lip fillers. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but it didn’t align [00:31:25] with my value sets and what I wanted to provide to my patients. So did [00:31:30] you almost did.

Rhona Eskander: You almost instantly leave dentistry after that course? Like how was the transition? [00:31:35]

Yusra: No, I didn’t alongside actually, the first person I treated was my dental nurse. Okay. And then her [00:31:40] mum and then, you know, just kind of grew from there. And then staff at the hospital wanted it because they’re [00:31:45] like, oh, you do facial aesthetics. Can you get rid of my nasal labial folds? And I did it. But again, it didn’t satisfy [00:31:50] me. I couldn’t have gone from facial surgery to that and it wouldn’t have it [00:31:55] just didn’t satisfy me. And then so I started to push boundaries and, and went [00:32:00] on more advanced courses and recognised the potential of facial aesthetics to create [00:32:05] incredible reconstructive change. And that’s what we do in dentistry. I mean, what are we doing when people [00:32:10] talk about cosmetic dentistry or dentistry is cosmetic? Yeah, all dentistry is creating aesthetic [00:32:15] change. And as you know, it’s not vanity alone. Patients come with a story or a [00:32:20] burden. There’s a motivation of why they come and seek a smile makeover. It’s because they feel held back [00:32:25] by their smile. And in society, what we do when it comes to dentistry is we say [00:32:30] society encourages people. They go, yeah, you should definitely go and get your teeth whitened. You should definitely go and [00:32:35] get your teeth composite. I always say that it’s more of a stigma.

Rhona Eskander: I’m like people people [00:32:40] accept. Cosmetic dentistry is not really changing who you are because someone said, I’m getting [00:32:45] braces, whitening and a bit of composite bonding. They’re like, sure, veneers is a bit more of a stigma. I think a lot of people [00:32:50] aren’t like open. But if you talk about the fact that you want Botox, filler, nose [00:32:55] job, like any of that stuff, it definitely more of a stigma around it. I think 100%.

Yusra: There is [00:33:00] and there shouldn’t be, because why are we, as a society, encouraging our patients to have orthodontic alignment? [00:33:05] But the moment that they have a bump on their nose and they want to align that they’re not well aligned? Yeah, [00:33:10] yeah, you know that that stigma is wrong. So a huge part of my work has been breaking down [00:33:15] that stigma and changing the narrative that what we do is skin deep, because the reality is it [00:33:20] isn’t. And patients often come with burdens and stories, and the treatments enable [00:33:25] them not to put a mask on, but actually to take a mask off and to live without [00:33:30] feeling held back by their appearance. Um, so another.

Payman Langroudi: Thing, but one [00:33:35] of the stigmas of facial aesthetics, if you if you go and talk to my buddies [00:33:40] and say, yeah, specialists say there’ll be this immediate new thing. Yeah. And it’s [00:33:45] because for men. Yeah, well, it’s a bit like cosmetic dentistry. If [00:33:50] if it’s done badly.

Rhona Eskander: It’s done really.

Payman Langroudi: Badly. Then. Then you can see it. Yes.

Yusra: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:33:55]

Payman Langroudi: So imagine the number of people who’ve had facial aesthetic treatments and very cheap. It’s done very well. [00:34:00] If it’s done very well.

Yusra: You don’t know they’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Done. Most of my friends wouldn’t know at all. Yeah. So [00:34:05] you only know it. You only realise it’s happening when it’s done badly.

Yusra: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: And I was going [00:34:10] to ask you living in Liverpool.

Yusra: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: That’s aesthetic that people want up there [00:34:15] is different. Different how to sometimes what you might want to [00:34:20] give them your apps. How does how does that work.

Yusra: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: How do you deal with that. [00:34:25]

Yusra: So I moved to Liverpool in 2016, um, because my husband got a [00:34:30] job in the primary mental health. Were you both in.

Rhona Eskander: London at that point then until that point? Sorry. [00:34:35] Yeah.

Yusra: And I thought, okay, well, faces and teeth are everywhere at this point. I was still doing both, [00:34:40] and I quickly realised that the aesthetics in Liverpool is very different to [00:34:45] London. And I love the report. It’s like it’s one of the friendliest, nicest, kindest, [00:34:50] funniest. Yeah. The people are amazing. Yeah. And by the way, the scientists shifted. But at that [00:34:55] time Bigger was better. Correct. And the faker, the better. And they were very open [00:35:00] about it. You know, they have with their brows they have something called Scales Brow. On a Friday evening, [00:35:05] women go out with their curlers in their hairs. They are unapologetic about looking [00:35:10] good and good for them. But when it came to facial aesthetics, [00:35:15] what ended up happening was distortion became the norm and the lips would walk in before the rest of [00:35:20] the face, and they would come in with already overtreated, overfilled lips and say to me, [00:35:25] can I have more in? And nobody would ever say no. So they never heard the word no. And [00:35:30] they’d sit in front of me and I would perform a holistic medical consultation [00:35:35] because I have a duty to do no harm. And I would say, I can’t do that because it’s not in your best [00:35:40] interest. And and of course, remember, patients only see themselves as a reflection of themselves. [00:35:45] They never see what we see. So I only see myself in a mirror [00:35:50] or a photo. But you see me in real life, so they don’t appreciate what they look like in [00:35:55] all angles. They only see this 2D image of a 3D object, and so they don’t realise [00:36:00] that their lips are projecting more than their chin. Or there’s migration. And so I’d be taking these photos and videos and, [00:36:05] you know, it was like a big educational process. And patients would often say to me, if you don’t do it, I’ll go to skin [00:36:10] clinic and I’d be like, that’s fine, you can go. But that’s my reputation on your face. And [00:36:15] then they would go and they would feed that back to their mom, their auntie, their friends, and.

Rhona Eskander: They’d be like, I agree.

Yusra: I agree. [00:36:20] Yeah, right. And then next thing you know that mom comes in and says, you said no to my daughter. Thank you. [00:36:25] And what can you do for me? Yeah. And so at the beginning I really thought, oh, I will never do [00:36:30] well in Liverpool because my niche is natural, natural, look fresh, [00:36:35] not fake, look good, not done. That’s kind of my tagline. So and [00:36:40] that wasn’t what they wanted. So I thought, well, actually I’m not going to I’m not going to do well here, but your vibe [00:36:45] attracts your tribe. And I just created this niche of natural looking aesthetics, and it grew [00:36:50] and grew and grew.

Payman Langroudi: And now people come to you for it.

Yusra: For that specific.

Payman Langroudi: Specifically. [00:36:55]

Yusra: Yeah. And I think even.

Payman Langroudi: Then come up with you as well. Right then I’m.

Rhona Eskander: Really I’m really looking.

Payman Langroudi: For [00:37:00] big square.

Rhona Eskander: I’m really lucky because just like yesterday, like people, but also [00:37:05] like where I am in Chelsea, people don’t want the fake look. And people come to me [00:37:10] specifically for the natural look. Now, I do have another colleague of mine that works part time in [00:37:15] Essex and part time at the clinic. For me, if there are the few patients that do want [00:37:20] the more fake look, they do go to him and the more natural ones will go to like the bulk of my other [00:37:25] clinicians, but on purpose. They’re like, I like your work because it never looks done up. Yeah. [00:37:30] And I think that, look, people go through trends like five years ago, people wanted like [00:37:35] slightly fake a composite bonding. Now people want more natural. It goes through the different waves [00:37:40] of the different trends. But no one, especially like London, Chelsea People want [00:37:45] a fake look. They really don’t want a fake look. And that’s one of the reasons that they come to [00:37:50] the clinic. And obviously it’s taken me a really long time to find a good ceramist. You’ve met Simon, he’s great. [00:37:55] We’ve had to perfect things, and of course you’ll have people that want to go slightly on the wider scale, but I’ll never [00:38:00] let them walk around with like big white, blocky teeth. I just won’t.

Payman Langroudi: Remember this [00:38:05] issue of consent. Right. And we had, um, the model, your [00:38:10] friend. The model. Um, the guy the male model was no author. [00:38:15] Not your friend. Paul. Paul. Paul. Scholes. Yeah.

Yusra: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Paul Scholes. He was maybe [00:38:20] the 90s, the top male model in the world.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. And he came on the podcast.

Payman Langroudi: He was [00:38:25] huge. And he was saying. He was saying that he went to a cosmetic surgeon.

Rhona Eskander: He had depression, and he showed [00:38:30] the surgeon a photograph. And he said when he was like 20 at his peak of like modelling, he said, make me look like this. [00:38:35]

Yusra: And then and.

Payman Langroudi: The surgeon said no. Yeah. And he said and he said later on he was so, so grateful. [00:38:40] Grateful. Yeah. Because he recognised exactly ethics.

Yusra: But but [00:38:45] but that’s what. But what if, what if. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What if. Yeah. The person understands. [00:38:50] The person knows what you’re saying says I want this.

Yusra: This is a really [00:38:55] interesting debate. And ultimately, there’s a couple of things that we need to be as healthcare [00:39:00] professionals, we need to be cognisant of, and that is a sphere of influence our patients are exposed to. [00:39:05] As Rona said, trends come and go, trends shift with time. And [00:39:10] when we are creating permanent change or long lasting change, like veneers, different with composite bonding [00:39:15] and maybe even different with fillers. But when you’re talking about surgical change and cutting [00:39:20] teeth down irreversibly, then there is a real question mark, and we [00:39:25] need to think even longer and deeper about the potential [00:39:30] to do harm to a patient. This is not timeless. So yeah, I hear that. And patients [00:39:35] come to me and they say, I know, but I hear you. I respect your know, [00:39:40] but I want it anyway. And I say I’m the wrong shop for you then because I my work [00:39:45] ethic and my professional integrity means that I need to have not just competence, [00:39:50] not just confidence, but the courage to say no when it’s not right for you. [00:39:55] And if you if that is not in alignment with you, that’s okay. Finds another practitioner. [00:40:00] That’s how I approach it. What’s your thoughts? Well, you know.

Payman Langroudi: I just [00:40:05] think that, you know, that the daughter test.

Yusra: Yeah, I know the daughter test. Would you do it to your daughter?

Payman Langroudi: Do you do it to your daughter? Yeah. [00:40:10] My view on that is it’s your daughter’s choice. Yeah. It’s not your choice. Yeah, [00:40:15] yeah.

Yusra: I agree with you.

Payman Langroudi: As the professional. Yeah. It’s [00:40:20] not your position to judge whether or not it’s the right thing to do. If you’ve done the right bit on [00:40:25] consent. Now, I agree there’s a grey area. Yeah. The person might say I understand and doesn’t. [00:40:30] Yeah, yeah. Or the person may have some psychological issue and [00:40:35] um, pretend to understand. And, you know, there’s all those things that you have to think about. Yeah. But this [00:40:40] question of us as medics deciding because, you know, at the end of the day.

Yusra: Patient [00:40:45] choice.

Payman Langroudi: Your view on what’s acceptable and isn’t is changing every day. Absolutely.

Yusra: Like, [00:40:50] you know.

Payman Langroudi: Uh, people people want whiter than B1 veneers. Yes. [00:40:55] It’s very common now when When I when I was cutting veneers I used to tell them no, don’t even go to B1, [00:41:00] you just get A1. Yeah, because the culture wasn’t to have the white teeth back [00:41:05] then and these things change.

Yusra: So you’re right. You’re absolutely right. Things change. And I guess it’s an arbitrary [00:41:10] line that we draw, because this conversation debate comes up a lot in facial aesthetics, [00:41:15] because trends are changing and trends are changing quickly. And right now there’s a new trend called beauty fandom. [00:41:20] Have you heard of this? What beauty fandom? Natalya’s. So beauty fandom is a [00:41:25] concept of, um, where there are people like in stars, Lords of the rings [00:41:30] where they’ve got like these, um, pixie ears and patients are coming in and saying, can you [00:41:35] give me pixie ears? What? Yeah. And so they want to look like it’s [00:41:40] they want to look like a role model or this is a thing. It’s actually a thing now.

Rhona Eskander: So they want [00:41:45] to like fantasy characters, basically fantasy characters.

Yusra: So this is this is called beauty fandom. It’s something [00:41:50] that has been recognised by Galderma and Innotrans reports and is now a question [00:41:55] about, okay, so is this doing harm to the patient or are we accepting [00:42:00] that role models are shifting over time, and our duty is to give the patient what they want? And [00:42:05] then I consider, well, what about Michael Jackson and Donatella Versace and other people who maybe went too far? [00:42:10] Whose responsibility is it to say, I’m not going to do that to you? I don’t [00:42:15] know, I the answer is I actually don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s but I.

Yusra: Know where I stand [00:42:20] in it. And I think it’s kind to be clear. So when [00:42:25] I do a consultation with a patient, I call it a same page meeting. And I start off by telling them what [00:42:30] my goals are, what my views are, what my ethos is. And I say, this is the same page meeting so [00:42:35] we can decide if we’re in alignment and if I’m the right practitioner for you. So if I’m not the right [00:42:40] practitioner for them, it’s kind to be clear and allow them to find [00:42:45] someone who is in alignment and who’s better suited to give them the desired outcome.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a nice way of looking at it.

Yusra: Yeah, [00:42:50] I.

Rhona Eskander: Think that’s a really great way of looking at it. And it is all about that alignment. It was interesting because [00:42:55] I love going to my retreats and I call myself like a retreat junkie, and I love spending time [00:43:00] with people that do a lot of work on themselves. And I’d met these practitioners. Some of them had [00:43:05] actually given up medicine to become more holistic practitioners, actually. And I was like, I want [00:43:10] to bring you to the clinic because I actually want you to be able to give an assessment to my patients, [00:43:15] because I actually feel I don’t get enough of a psychological assessment of my patient when my patients [00:43:20] come in for a consultation. Granted, they’re an hour. We usually end up going over the clinical staff. Sure, [00:43:25] we talk about what they do, maybe their relationship status. And over time I build that rapport even more. But I think [00:43:30] from the outset, it’d be really interesting to see someone’s insights to their psyche and understand [00:43:35] a little bit about their motivation for being there. And as you said, for dentistry, [00:43:40] sometimes there’s obvious red flags, sometimes there’s not. I think red flags are always a sign [00:43:45] of something unresolved within the human being.

Rhona Eskander: It makes it incredibly stressful for us as well because unfortunately, [00:43:50] as health care professionals, we’re not equipped, nor do we have the protection from anybody [00:43:55] within our governing body or our realm or whatever it be that helps us navigate [00:44:00] these issues. And I think, you know, red flag patients or patients that are disgruntled [00:44:05] are often treated with adversity and hate because, number one, they can make our lives more [00:44:10] difficult. But number two, I think that they’re not really understood in some way. [00:44:15] And then you have people that are also act as enablers. You have those, you know, Dental [00:44:20] law partnerships. You have the enablers. But imagine if there was a real understanding [00:44:25] of the psychology of those patients, because, as Payman said, some patients project that [00:44:30] they want their happiness. You might not see it from the beginning. Super nice. You give them what they want, they look amazing, but [00:44:35] they’re still unhappy because their life hasn’t changed. You’re not responsible for changing their life, you know? [00:44:40] And I think it would be really interesting if we integrated that more, which again is the psychology psychotherapy [00:44:45] side within what we do.

Yusra: So can I tell you I did a huge research study on this [00:44:50] particular topic. Yeah. On the psychological motivation for patients seeking aesthetic treatments and outcomes. [00:44:55] And off the back of that I actually employed a psychologist in my clinic for five years [00:45:00] and I just want to do it.

Rhona Eskander: I really want.

Yusra: To do it. It has been massively helpful. And [00:45:05] then you need to bring Hassan on this podcast because him and one of the psychologists, Doctor Lindsay Hanson, created [00:45:10] a tool that practitioners in aesthetics now use. So I’m sure it can be used in dentistry, [00:45:15] which is a tool that, um, assesses the framework seven domains of [00:45:20] the patient’s life their appearance, anxiety, the motivation for seeking treatment, [00:45:25] and identifies red flags, so to speak, and concerns [00:45:30] and helps to differentiate between appearance anxiety, which is legitimate, and body dysmorphia, [00:45:35] which is also legitimate but may need psychiatric intervention and then has a pathway for which [00:45:40] you treat them and refer them. So this has been instrumental actually in discussed a lot in the aesthetic field. [00:45:45] And I think there is something, you know, now that you’re saying it, and it made me realise [00:45:50] this is the same problem and concern. And in dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: You’re really strong [00:45:55] on EQ. Yeah. Oh I’m understanding. Yeah, the person’s motivation. But if you’re [00:46:00] not strong on EQ yeah. Be great to have a tool.

Rhona Eskander: Oh I’m sorry. And yeah, the thing is I’m so [00:46:05] sensitive to energy, but also because I’m an empath initially I want to help fix people and [00:46:10] I’m like, oh no, I don’t want to like, love you and understand you. And then I have been taken advantage of, you know, in the past [00:46:15] because of that. Also, that is why.

Yusra: I employed a psychologist, because I felt that my job [00:46:20] role became part aesthetic practitioner, part psychotherapist. Yeah. And I don’t have [00:46:25] the tools to be understand that.

Rhona Eskander: Exactly. A question for you. This is such a random one. Do [00:46:30] you find and I don’t like making generalisations. I don’t like making assumptions. Do you find [00:46:35] the London clientele different to the Liverpool clientele in terms of what their psyche is about?

Yusra: Yes, [00:46:40] in terms of demands and expectations. I feel like generally, [00:46:45] and this is a generalisation and may be unfair, but just my experience is Liverpool [00:46:50] patients, generally speaking, are maybe have [00:46:55] more realistic expectations actually. And they’ve seen really [00:47:00] bad work that is really obvious. So they really appreciate good work. And I think in London [00:47:05] people are.

Rhona Eskander: A bit spoilt for.

Yusra: Choice. Yeah. Yeah that’s reality. Yeah it is.

Payman Langroudi: Reality. People bring [00:47:10] you like a picture of, you know, Julia Roberts and say made me look like that.

Yusra: Or they used to this, this [00:47:15] is the thing. Um, this is the thing that I used to experience, but, you know, not so much anymore. [00:47:20] And I think the reason why is because there has been a real shift in the aesthetic industry where patients are not accessing [00:47:25] treatments for vanity alone, but as part of their self-care and self rejuvenation and parts [00:47:30] of wellness. So they don’t really necessarily want to look like a role model. Yes, there’s a beauty fandom trend, [00:47:35] but generally speaking, speaking people don’t want to look like clones of each other. They just want to look [00:47:40] like the best version of themselves. But the trends are changing.

Payman Langroudi: Itself is mature.

Yusra: Markets itself is changing, [00:47:45] and even the shifts. And again, this is why I said we need to be cognisant of our patient sphere of influence. [00:47:50] Because if you look at lip fillers, lip fillers got screwed massively. When [00:47:55] Kylie Jenner spoke about having lip fillers, when Huda Beauty dissolved her lips [00:48:00] and Molly Mae Hughes dissolved her lips. Guess what happened? The opposite happened. It was a movement towards minimalism [00:48:05] wearing less makeup, being more real, dissolving fillers. And that’s the trend that we started to see in clinic [00:48:10] when patients were coming in seeking, dissolving and looking more like themselves. And I think that’s the [00:48:15] upward trend that I’m seeing now. Patient less is more. Patients don’t want massive change [00:48:20] or they want it done slowly over time.

Payman Langroudi: Interesting. Even in Liverpool. [00:48:25]

Yusra: Even in Liverpool, I mean, again, I have a skewed maybe I have a skewed [00:48:30] insight because those are the patients that are seeking me. So I can only speak about my experience, and then I’m [00:48:35] not getting the patients who are asking me to do something that is not in align with me, because I’m quite vocal on social [00:48:40] media. People know your vibe attracts your tribe. You know, if I if I kind of put [00:48:45] out there that I do anything and everything, maybe it’s different. You know, there are practitioners, there [00:48:50] are dentists, not in the UK, but in actually in Africa, where they chisel people, [00:48:55] women’s teeth into little sharp pegs. Fangs, actually, because that’s what’s [00:49:00] deemed socially attractive. Now, us in the West look at them and go, oh, look, what are they doing this backwards? [00:49:05] But so is that harm or are they just doing what that patient wants that will enable [00:49:10] them to prosper psychosocially within their culture? And have you seen that trend of people draw. [00:49:15]

Rhona Eskander: Using a black marker now to put a, um, in the middle of their two front teeth, because now gaps are in fashion? [00:49:20]

Yusra: No, I’m not.

Rhona Eskander: Saying that this is a massive TikTok trend. They’re getting a felt tip pen drawing the middle. [00:49:25] So it looks like.

Payman Langroudi: That one in Japan where they’re bringing on Malocclusions because [00:49:30] it’s, uh.

Yusra: Because crowding is.

Payman Langroudi: Look younger.

Yusra: Well, you know, so where do we [00:49:35] draw the line in China? You know, what they do in China? In certain areas of China, they crush women’s feet because [00:49:40] having yeah, I know this is deemed socially attractive. You know, you can keep going and going in certain areas in Africa [00:49:45] they put rings around women’s necks to elongate them because that seems attractive. So where do we draw this arbitrary line? [00:49:50] It’s going to change according to culture, social construct, social norms.

Rhona Eskander: I’m going to say it’s interesting because [00:49:55] obviously you grew up within like Middle Eastern culture. Like me, I hated Payman noses already. I [00:50:00] hated, hated my body growing up because I was told the beauty standard was, you shouldn’t have hips, [00:50:05] you shouldn’t have curves. Really? Yeah. And I grew up because I grew up also like in a [00:50:10] massively like Western environment. And when I went to university it got really bad. That was the Kate Moss [00:50:15] era. Yeah. And you know, I got scouted for modelling and when I did, all the guys [00:50:20] were like, well, you need to lose weight, you need to lose this da da da. But you’re not high fashion. You’re not Kate Moss, you know, and [00:50:25] it was awful. And my mum unfortunately, bless her I love her and she didn’t know any better also [00:50:30] grew up with that narrative. She grew up in Lebanon, Western culture, Having a straight body was deemed [00:50:35] to be what was beautiful. So for me, I spent my whole life hiding my hips, hiding my legs, hiding [00:50:40] like the lower part of my body. And then Kim K came in fashion. And guess what? Everyone [00:50:45] wants it. Everyone wants it, you know? But it’s the the the effect that it had of people telling [00:50:50] me basically that I wasn’t beautiful, beautiful enough, never left me. So even though she made it [00:50:55] fashionable, I still didn’t learn to love it. You know, it’s just something that I’ve learned to live with. Sadly, as much [00:51:00] as I wanted to say.

Yusra: Confidence crisis caused by sphere of influence.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, and that’s the thing. [00:51:05] Because your.

Payman Langroudi: Eyebrows too.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I got bullied for my eyebrows. Luckily, I fell in love [00:51:10] with my eyebrows because I’m like. I mean, people used to say, and I remember I came back because again, it was Spice Girls era. [00:51:15] I went into school one day and my mum was mortified because I pretty much shaved them [00:51:20] off and pencilled them on because they’d made fun of me for having big, thick, bushy eyebrows at school [00:51:25] and, you know, all the girls. And now I’m like, I love them. And if anyone says to me, [00:51:30] you know, social media is a funny place because someone posted underneath my TikTok the other day, [00:51:35] I hope you can afford to get your ears pinned back now. And I was like, I love my big ears. Like that’s it. Like, I [00:51:40] love my big ears. Unbelievable. And you know it. But it’s funny because [00:51:45] things change all the time. Thin eyebrows were in in the 90s. Everyone wants them thick now, [00:51:50] as you said, it always changes. So I think we’ve got to be mindful of those trends. Yes. Next [00:51:55] question I want to ask you is about motherhood. Sure. So talk [00:52:00] to us a little bit about you already described that, you know, when you first fell pregnant. Talk [00:52:05] to us how motherhood has changed your life and how you have navigated being a mother as well [00:52:10] as a businesswoman and entrepreneur.

Yusra: Wow. Great question. Um, so I didn’t [00:52:15] plan my first child. I when I had my. How old were you? Um, [00:52:20] I must have been 27. Okay. Something like that. 27. 28 [00:52:25] and what had happened was we were living in South Woodford in London. My husband was a registrar [00:52:30] in psychiatry. I was doing maths facts. We were both hospital jobs making rubbish money, [00:52:35] barely making ends meet, living month to month, and then our landlord put [00:52:40] the rent up and we couldn’t afford that. So we moved out and moved into my [00:52:45] old bedroom in my parents home, thinking, okay, we’ll stay here for six months, save up and move [00:52:50] out. And then I fell pregnant and it was, you know, at the time I thought it was a catastrophe because [00:52:55] I thought, oh my God, my career is just taking off. I’m juggling so much. I started doing fixed ortho. [00:53:00] I felt like I was not ready to be a parent yet. And [00:53:05] actually what I realised is you’re never really ready. And so anyway, I had the baby [00:53:10] and what is probably the best thing that ever happened to me, he’s given me perspective. [00:53:15] He’s my source of comfort. I you know, it’s amazing being [00:53:20] a parent. It’s been challenging because the reality is, no [00:53:25] matter what anyone tells you, your life does change because it’s no longer just about you anymore. You’ve got responsibility [00:53:30] to be a life coach to this mini human being who’s relying on [00:53:35] you to lead. So I had to learn a lot, and there were sacrifices [00:53:40] that were made, and one of them was moving to Liverpool, for example.

Payman Langroudi: How old is he? [00:53:45]

Yusra: He’s now ten. He just turned ten.

Payman Langroudi: And you have another one as well?

Yusra: I have three.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, why did I [00:53:50] say two? For some reason I hold it.

Yusra: So I have a ten year old, a seven year old and a [00:53:55] 20 month old.

Payman Langroudi: My goodness. Busy?

Yusra: Yeah, busy. But, [00:54:00] you know, it’s teamwork. I wouldn’t be where I am today without my husband. I [00:54:05] think you, you know, there every every family unit works [00:54:10] in its own way. And what works in one family won’t necessarily work in the other. We both work, [00:54:15] but we both share the workload at home. You know, he is a child and adolescent psychiatrist. He’s very [00:54:20] hands on with the children. He’s amazing at EQ and emotional intelligence and managing their anxieties [00:54:25] and concerns everything. So it’s been a [00:54:30] challenge because both jobs are 24 over seven. You [00:54:35] don’t get to clock in and clock out of being a parent if your child is sick. You are on call [00:54:40] all the time, and if your patient is sick, you’re on call. So that’s I think is the challenge. [00:54:45] There is no manual for running a business. I’ve made mistakes running my business and hiring [00:54:50] and trying to procure the right team. That’s a whole podcast in itself. I [00:54:55] now have a new rule of hire and fire fast Firefox, and there’s no manual for parenting, [00:55:00] but I think self-development has been the only way. Personal [00:55:05] development has been, the only way that I have been able to navigate both, and having a good support system [00:55:10] and having a real clear why, why am I doing what I’m doing and a vision. [00:55:15] So if I didn’t have all of those things in place, I don’t think I could do both. But I’m very [00:55:20] passionate about being a present mum, and I’m very passionate about my role as a leader [00:55:25] and educator, a businesswoman, a clinician looking after my patients. I’m [00:55:30] really passionate about both. And the reality is, if you want to do both very well, [00:55:35] you may need to do a little bit less of each.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I know, I love that. I think that’s what I’ve got [00:55:40] fear and anxiety around having children for, like losing my identity. [00:55:45]

Payman Langroudi: Um, What gives what what what how how do you pull it off? What if something gives? [00:55:50] What gives?

Yusra: First of all, there’s always something that gives. So great question because the reality [00:55:55] is there is an opportunity cost, okay. And your priorities are going [00:56:00] to shift. I think for me what gives us social time with friends family, friends [00:56:05] with friends, and I guess with families to a certain extent, because, you know, I’m, I’m [00:56:10] in Liverpool, where my family are still in London. Sleep. Sleep for sure. [00:56:15] Yeah, right. Like that’s a, that’s a, that’s a no brainer. That’s a for sure. But you know Rona you don’t lose your [00:56:20] identity when you become a parent. You just you just take on a new identity. You just it’s [00:56:25] like wearing you already wear multiple hats. You’re a host of a podcast. You’re a leader and educator in [00:56:30] your field. You’re a social media influencer. You’re a fashionista. You’re a your clinician, your a boss. [00:56:35] Your colleague is just wearing a new hat. And it’s a skill set that you acquire with time. And [00:56:40] there’s no there is no manual. There’s no right or wrong. You just learn to do [00:56:45] your best. And I think if you keep showing up as your best self with the right attitude and [00:56:50] caring, you have EQ. Having EQ is probably the most important thing as a parent, [00:56:55] and the things that I want to instil in my children are the three C’s confidence, [00:57:00] competence and courage. Competence is probably the [00:57:05] least in priority. I don’t need my children to be lawyers and doctors and so on, but I need [00:57:10] them to be confident that they know that there is nothing that they can’t do, [00:57:15] and courage to be firm in their value set, no matter where they are in life. [00:57:20]

Rhona Eskander: I really, really love that. And thank you for speaking about that with such eloquence. I [00:57:25] remember that I heard you on another podcast also talking about, um, women that had [00:57:30] delayed having children and had struggled. It’s something I feel very passionate about for [00:57:35] a number of reasons, and I think this invites the opportunity to kind of see both sides. [00:57:40] Essentially. My father’s a gynaecologist, so I was brought up having [00:57:45] being told that if I did not meet someone before I was 30, [00:57:50] it was going to be very difficult to meet someone and have a family. He said it was love because [00:57:55] my father has always been a compassionate, kind and credible human being. But it was because he wanted [00:58:00] to make sure that I had somebody in my life that was going to give me the things that I have in my family. Yeah, I [00:58:05] was very focussed on studies, not boys or dating when I throughout [00:58:10] school got to university and then I was like, oh, I’ll find a husband. And for me, I had the Disney [00:58:15] image in my head because someone finds you, they see you in a room, they pursue you, they [00:58:20] you get, you know, you get proposed to and it’s done. And obviously the reality was very different. I went to university [00:58:25] in Leeds. I was suddenly thrown into this extremely white Caucasian environment that [00:58:30] I had never been in.

Rhona Eskander: I actually was the brown girl that was had no experience. [00:58:35] And people knew that, you know, had never had a proper boyfriend, hadn’t done, you know, any of the things [00:58:40] that they had been used to or accustomed to, you know, growing up in the environments that they had. And it was a challenging [00:58:45] time, took me a long time to meet someone I did. I was with that person for six years, and [00:58:50] there was always this promise that he was going to marry me, and I thought that that was basically my life. I [00:58:55] turned 27 and he was a good guy, good family, etc. etc. and he [00:59:00] had decided that it wasn’t. That’s not what he wanted to do. And the relationship [00:59:05] broke down and I went into a bit of a panic mode and I was like, right, I need to find a husband in three years. [00:59:10] I’ve got three years now to find my husband, because the thing that I didn’t want to do [00:59:15] was just have a baby with someone, or marry someone for the sake of it. That was like the important [00:59:20] thing for me. I wanted to make sure I married someone with values, and that could bring up [00:59:25] a child in the way that I knew a child should be brought up.

Rhona Eskander: So as I [00:59:30] tried to pressure myself, I ended up dating some of the wrong men and [00:59:35] I sadly, when I turned 30. This is really sad. I don’t think I’ve ever shared this with you. [00:59:40] I was like, I’d rather be dead than than alive and single at 30 and be [00:59:45] known as that girl. And I was suicidal, like, honestly. Like, yeah. So [00:59:50] I was so broken and I had just come out of a really toxic, [00:59:55] narcissistic relationship, and I was too embarrassed to tell my parents because I thought, I’m going to be single at 30. What’s [01:00:00] everyone going to think? I’m going to be single at 30? Luckily, I met my incredible, [01:00:05] healthy, wonderful partner. Now I was 32 at the time, and I think I kind of like [01:00:10] given up on the idea. I was just like, what’s not going to happen? So how old are you now? 37. Okay. Yeah. [01:00:15] And then my father turned around to me and he said, you need to freeze your eggs. [01:00:20] I’m telling you with love. He has a clinic. I’m in a privileged position. I know not [01:00:25] everybody is in a privileged position, but I was because I only had to pay the lab fees, which was minor, as [01:00:30] you know. And he said, just do it because it’s a safety insurance.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a policy [01:00:35] like I’m sure your dad is. He’s factual. Yeah. Exa like this in your 20s. Exa like this in your 30s. [01:00:40] Get it done. Yeah. I had a very I mean the the process thereafter was very difficult [01:00:45] on my body, but the, the success was really high. I got 19 healthy eggs in one go, which [01:00:50] a lot of people when you 32. So one round 19 eggs. Every single egg was [01:00:55] healthy there in the freezer okay. So so that for me took [01:01:00] a little bit of like, stress. And obviously I built my relationship with my partner, we’re [01:01:05] now engaged, etc., etc. so I have a lot of compassion [01:01:10] for women that cannot find the right person, you know, at that [01:01:15] at the time of their life when they’re expected to. But I also recognise there are women that [01:01:20] put it off because of career, for example into their 40s and their chances become a lot lower. [01:01:25] I’m not saying it’s impossible, I know it’s possible, but chances become lower. Chances of miscarriages increase, [01:01:30] chances of, um, children being born with defects. All that stuff increases. But I reckon [01:01:35] now the environment that we live in makes it really difficult to provide, [01:01:40] to provide the environment where people feel safe enough to start a family.

Yusra: I [01:01:45] agree with you entirely. And I think, look, there’s no right. First and foremost, you don’t start [01:01:50] and stop when you get married. Yeah, and you don’t start and stop [01:01:55] when you become a mother. Yeah, this is all fear mongering and there is no substance to it [01:02:00] really. If you want to do both, you can do both with regards to when you find a partner [01:02:05] that like that happens in different times for different people. And [01:02:10] I have a lot of compassion for people who are struggling, you know, and I have a lot of patients [01:02:15] as well who have made the conscious decision to delay having children [01:02:20] because of their career and now.

Rhona Eskander: Because they feel they didn’t have enough money to support a baby or because they [01:02:25] want to do the right.

Yusra: Time. I, you know, I’m building my career and building my name. I can’t [01:02:30] take time off. Who’s going to look after my, my, my role? What’s going to happen? There’s a lot of fear [01:02:35] around that. I get it because I felt like that as well. If I didn’t fall pregnant by mistake, I would still [01:02:40] be. Yeah, be still thinking it’s not the right time. The reality is it’s never the right [01:02:45] time. Okay, I know that now because of what I went through, there is never [01:02:50] a right time. And I think what’s really important to understand [01:02:55] is knowledge is power. And if women understood like you, you’ve got privilege that your [01:03:00] father was in that field and could educate you and explain to you. Women understood that the reality physiologically, [01:03:05] biologically, the reality this is fact not feeling is that as we [01:03:10] age women, not men, our ability to procreate reduces. Again, this is biologically [01:03:15] biologically correct. Right. So then you can make an informed decision in your 20s, 30s, [01:03:20] whatever to freeze eggs. But we also need to understand that even when you freeze eggs, it’s not a guarantee. It’s not a guarantee. [01:03:25] So there’s two sides to this. There is. Well, you might not have found the right [01:03:30] partner. That’s life, you know. And it’s okay. You might choose not to become a mother. That’s okay. Because [01:03:35] your identity as a woman doesn’t start and stop with your if you choose to procreate. [01:03:40] So I think there’s so many sides to this, but I think information is power.

Yusra: And I think if more women spoke about [01:03:45] it and understood that as they aged and so many women that I now see who are going through IVF said, [01:03:50] I never knew that if I left it to my 40s, it would be hard to get eggs. They’re going through cycle [01:03:55] after cycle after cycle, getting 1 or 2 eggs. And I think that’s it’s soul destroying for them. [01:04:00] I see them in their darkest times when they are feeling suicidal, [01:04:05] very low. It has an impact on their relationship, their self-worth, their image, their body. Physiologically, [01:04:10] physically, mentally, we cannot diminish that journey. So if they knew, then perhaps [01:04:15] they can make a more informed decision if they had a partner, let’s say. But this is such a personal [01:04:20] journey for each person that you’ve got to give grace and compassion and understand. And [01:04:25] also, I think, reassurance that it’s okay. Either [01:04:30] way. I think, you know, I understand your father is saying, listen, you, this is important. [01:04:35] And I’ll tell you another story that I went through when I was 30. I fell pregnant with my second child. Yeah. And [01:04:40] I was told she would be disabled. And when I was pregnant, the doctor at the time said to me, [01:04:45] it’s because you’re old. Those are the words that he used 30, 30. And I was mortified. [01:04:50] I literally like my jaw dropped open and this was in front of my husband. And as he walked out [01:04:55] and, you know, again, he was from the generation five.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a geriatric, geriatric pregnancy. So [01:05:00] I’ve had.

Yusra: A geriatric pregnancy. So which, by the way, I find the term hugely offensive [01:05:05] acceptable. So when I, when I was 30 and they told me she’s going to be born disabled [01:05:10] and then blames me because I was too old and then told me I should have an abortion, and it was [01:05:15] one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to go through. And then when I was 35 and [01:05:20] I was told as a geriatric pregnancy, all of that fear that I had gone through came up again. So [01:05:25] I really I hold a lot of compassion and grace for women going through this, no matter what [01:05:30] parts of the journey or decision they make. It’s a really difficult time. But I think the answer here [01:05:35] is to ensure that we are empowered with information. It’s the same with the menopause. I see a lot of women in the menopause who [01:05:40] don’t know what to expect and feel like when they go through the menopause at the end of their femininity, you know, like [01:05:45] they are no longer relevant. Are you kidding me? These are women who have worked in their fields for years. They are [01:05:50] the epitome of relevance. Yeah, um, but they they don’t know what’s to come. [01:05:55] They just think they’re going to be this hot, sweaty mess. And so part of the research that I did is called the Menopause Skin Report, [01:06:00] was discussing how we need to change the narrative in the industry [01:06:05] that actually you don’t start and stop with the with the menopause as well. You know, all these life [01:06:10] changes that women go through. It’s a pretty hard life. You’ve got it easy, you know.

Rhona Eskander: But [01:06:15] this is the thing. And I think the sad thing is I said, like, I’ve, I get [01:06:20] so upset thinking about women because women take, you know, I think of the Barbie speech. Did you ever see the Barbie speech?

Yusra: Yeah I [01:06:25] did, you’re damned if you do. You’re damned if you don’t.

Rhona Eskander: And basically you don’t. And it’s, [01:06:30] it’s it’s very difficult. Um, I might even read it out, but it’s very difficult being a woman. And I think, [01:06:35] look, we have this debate all the time, of course. And he’s like, it’s not that difficult being a woman now. Like [01:06:40] you’re not living in Iran or Afghanistan and, you know, like these are like.

Payman Langroudi: I always caveat the childbirth [01:06:45] and children. Mother.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If you if you crop out mothering. [01:06:50] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I think you’re right. I think people have to make the right choice. I think we’re lucky now because [01:06:55] actually, when I did egg freezing five years ago, no one knew really what it is. [01:07:00] And now everyone’s talking about it. We had to meet his wife on the podcast. Um, and she actually owns [01:07:05] a company that specialises in egg freezing. And I think it’s great because people are having [01:07:10] and they’re trying to make one of their pillars is they’re trying to make it accessible [01:07:15] to women that can’t even afford the tests, because the tests can be really, really suggest check your AMH, [01:07:20] check all of these hormones, see where you’re at. Because you’re right. I know a woman that had early onset menopause at [01:07:25] 35. So I think, like you said, knowledge is power, but it also does not define you as [01:07:30] a woman. What defines you as a woman is the choices that you make for you. That is it. You know, it’s as simple [01:07:35] as that. I want to move on to something that I think attracted me [01:07:40] to you in the start. And I think also I’ve seen there’s been an increase in your following because [01:07:45] clearly a lot of people have been very empowered by the things that you’ve been saying [01:07:50] online with regards to your humanitarian causes. There is [01:07:55] a lot of political debate that goes on obviously, online. Do you [01:08:00] think and this is again a debate amongst healthcare professionals. Do you think that political [01:08:05] discussions, which I view sometimes as being actually humanitarian discussions, [01:08:10] Discussions should be shown on health care professionals platforms. [01:08:15]

Yusra: I think the GMC and the GDC have issued a statement that [01:08:20] has clearly expressed their opinion on this, which is that as [01:08:25] a healthcare professional, you and I, us have the right [01:08:30] to a political opinion and to express that political opinion in the same way as every [01:08:35] other citizen in the United Kingdom. So that is a universal human right [01:08:40] to express your political views. Now, the way that you do so I think is important. [01:08:45]

Rhona Eskander: The GDC or GMC define the way you should do it or not.

Yusra: No, they didn’t define the way that you should do it. [01:08:50]

Payman Langroudi: You have the right to do that.

Yusra: You have the right express, the right to express, you know, political political [01:08:55] is one thing. And political affiliations or viewpoints may be nuanced and [01:09:00] change according to your proximity, i.e. your again, your [01:09:05] sphere of influence. Right? And the idea and what the GTC have said is that you need [01:09:10] to be mindful that not everyone will share the same opinion, and that’s life. And we all have different opinions. So we have to be able to [01:09:15] communicate respectfully. And as healthcare professionals, we are accustomed [01:09:20] and learn and know how to treat our patients as colourless. It doesn’t matter [01:09:25] what colour they are, it doesn’t matter what faith they are, doesn’t what matter what sexual orientation or gender or [01:09:30] political opinion or affiliation. It makes no difference to our care for them, makes [01:09:35] no difference to my care for my patients or my viewpoint on my colleagues. Make zero [01:09:40] difference to me. And I think what I have been discussing online is [01:09:45] not a political opinion, but a humanitarian one. When we’re talking about universal human [01:09:50] rights, these are universal. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was made [01:09:55] in 1948 after huge, you know, after World War two when there was mass human atrocity. [01:10:00] And the ideology and the reason behind that was that [01:10:05] it would become the Magna Carta of Man so that we would treat all people universally. [01:10:10]

Yusra: And that means that understanding that we’re all born equal with the equal right to life, the equal right [01:10:15] to dignity, the equal right to freedom, the equal right to express your views, the equal right to [01:10:20] living in your property. And that is what I have been expressing unapologetically. [01:10:25] But when you talk about controversy about that, I have had [01:10:30] hate. I have had death threats. I have had threats of violence, threats of rape, threats of sexual [01:10:35] violence against me and my children and my family. And it has definitely been a challenge to navigate. [01:10:40] But I haven’t stopped because I am firm in my belief and my identity [01:10:45] and my role as a human being and as a health care professional, that [01:10:50] I’m here to be in the service of others. And I was brought up with that [01:10:55] mindset. You know, I told you, my parents are both in healthcare, but But beyond that, I [01:11:00] feel a sense of duty to be a voice for the voiceless. And [01:11:05] I stand firm against the physical and mental [01:11:10] mutilation of all people. And I think that it should never be controversial to say, [01:11:15] don’t kill children, lest the killers be offended.

Rhona Eskander: You know, I find that [01:11:20] super interesting. Um, because I find there’s a lot of confusion [01:11:25] around my identity from people online. And I think this also comes down to an [01:11:30] education point of view. I’m Arab, as you know. Um, my father is Coptic Egyptian [01:11:35] and my mother is Catholic. A lot of people assume that Arabs are of [01:11:40] one type of religion, and that I will get abuse because they think that my [01:11:45] behaviour online isn’t in line with their religious beliefs, and that breeds a lot [01:11:50] of hate and division. I’m not as strong as you, so when I get the trolls and when I [01:11:55] get the death threats and the names and, you know, some of them have gone as far as to find my sister and my mother’s [01:12:00] profiles, I shut down. What has shocked me the most, though, is [01:12:05] that when I discover, or when I’ve even had messages from other health care professionals, [01:12:10] and I think regardless of the statement the GDC and GMC have issued, [01:12:15] we have a duty to speak to each other in a certain way. Agree. Let’s [01:12:20] put the political parts to one side. Sometimes the way I see other dentists [01:12:25] or doctors slate each other on forums, on Facebook. To me it’s unacceptable. [01:12:30] It’s like the Daily Mail and the sun having it out with each other. And [01:12:35] when they take it beyond because they think that somebody with a platform, lots of followers and they [01:12:40] think that we can just handle it, if you can’t take the heat, don’t put yourself out there. You know, that’s the thing. I find [01:12:45] that really ridiculous. And I think there is a code of conduct on how we should behave towards each other. [01:12:50] I really do agree.

Yusra: I think there is a code of conduct, and I think as, as professionals, [01:12:55] we should know how to conduct ourselves and communicate with kindness and respect. [01:13:00] So there is the online bullying is unacceptable. Simply, [01:13:05] purely. It starts and stops there. My statement on that there I do not accept it, but what I also don’t [01:13:10] do is give it face. I don’t give it time, I don’t give it air time, I ignore it. But when [01:13:15] there’s threats of violence that is straight to the police, you know, there is the there’s a clear way that [01:13:20] I manage this. And I think here’s the reality. Look, whether you have ten followers or 100 followers or [01:13:25] 10,000 or 100,000 followers, you’re not going to please every single person. You’re [01:13:30] not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. And that’s okay. You can agree to disagree. The beauty of social media [01:13:35] is you can scroll right past so you don’t like it. Shimmy on past. There’s no need to leave negative comments, [01:13:40] but if they do, I give grace there as well. Because I think that negative comment [01:13:45] is coming from a place of weakness or negativity or hurt or pain, and they’re projecting. They [01:13:50] are unable to articulate themselves. So I give that grace and I ignore [01:13:55] I’m not making it acceptable, but I’m not giving it airtime either.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And [01:14:00] that’s the thing, you know. Do you know where the word trolling comes from? No, it’s not a troll like the dolls, because [01:14:05] I thought it was that trolling is a fishing term that when you put the rod and then you like basically [01:14:10] bait what you’re trying to catch. So basically they say that if you talk [01:14:15] or respond to a troll, you are baiting them. So you shouldn’t. Actually ignoring [01:14:20] is the only way that you should deal with it. Absolutely.

Yusra: What you feed grows. Yeah. So give it no airtime. [01:14:25]

Payman Langroudi: What you say is, look, I think we need to separate the political. [01:14:30]

Yusra: And the humanitarian.

Payman Langroudi: Well, political, humanitarian on one side. And then what you said about dentists arguing [01:14:35] arguing about patients on the other side, not talking about patients. No, no, no, it’s about [01:14:40] a case, isn’t it?

Rhona Eskander: No, no, no, you’ve got this wrong. You’ve got this wrong. Look, I don’t want to get into [01:14:45] this debate in particular because of the reasons behind it. But for example, [01:14:50] if a dentist or doctor is struck off, we don’t really know the ins and outs of a case. [01:14:55] Right. And I’m not saying that that person is definitely wrong, but the way they will tear [01:15:00] apart the human being, whether they know them by reputation, I’m like, this person could kill themselves. [01:15:05] I’ve had doctors and dentists being struck off and been in the firing. In fact, [01:15:10] I know a doctor that had been in trouble who’s a huge humanitarian [01:15:15] with not because of the humanitarian cause had been in trouble in the UK for, you know, whatever reason. [01:15:20] But I’m saying, like they totally dehumanised them on these forums. It’s [01:15:25] not fair. And God forbid something happens to you because we’ve now been in that position. [01:15:30] We’ve not been in the room with those patients or done this. And yes, sometimes you can argue, but there was a clear breach, but you [01:15:35] never know until you’re in that person’s shoes. And I find that.

Payman Langroudi: Even if there was, I think your point is right that it [01:15:40] doesn’t need to be nasty. But on the question of the humanitarian, um, [01:15:45] you know, what I really struggled with is, in this day and age, we all have a voice, right? [01:15:50] We can all post. Yeah. And so, in the moment of children [01:15:55] dying, for instance, it’s incumbent on us to post. I agree with you. [01:16:00] Yeah, because we all have a voice. I mean, 15 years ago, we didn’t have a voice. [01:16:05] Only only the people on TV had a voice. So I found it difficult, [01:16:10] though I found it difficult too.

Yusra: To because of fear. Right? Because of fear, because of silencing and because of potential [01:16:15] misinterpretation.

[TRANSITION]: And I don’t want to I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t want to hurt friends. Friends [01:16:20] and family.

[TRANSITION]: Sure.

Payman Langroudi: But a friend.

Yusra: People, this is so. This is what I mean. We [01:16:25] have reached a stage that is really dangerous, where we are questioning ourselves [01:16:30] whether we can say.

Rhona Eskander: Whether kill a.

Yusra: Child, kill a child, lest it offend someone. All [01:16:35] children are equal. Article one of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is all [01:16:40] people are born equal. Equal rights to freedom and dignity. Equal [01:16:45] rights to not be detained. Equal rights to not suffer from violence of any [01:16:50] sort. These are. These are universal declaration of human rights that must be applied universally. [01:16:55] That means that it’s not applied to one sect of people, but not another. [01:17:00] And when there is a clear humanitarian issue, you know, what’s going on at [01:17:05] the moment is an undebatable humanitarian crisis. Oxfam has called what is going on at the moment is the worst [01:17:10] humanitarian crisis in its existence. We it’s undebatable that children are dying [01:17:15] in their masses, and they’re not dying from just disease. They’re being killed by bombs [01:17:20] that are being funded by the USA and the UK and Germany. So we we [01:17:25] have a voice and I and I would take it even further to say our [01:17:30] health care colleagues who are out there, 200 colleagues of ours, yes, [01:17:35] have been kidnapped, detained, tortured, threats of sexual violence. [01:17:40] I mean, this is well documented. And people are saying to me, [01:17:45] it’s fake, not just this fake. I’m too afraid to speak up in case I lose my job. [01:17:50] I’m too afraid to speak up in case someone comes after me.

Yusra: And I get that. I understand that because [01:17:55] I have had a phone call from somebody saying, stop speaking about this cause because there’s someone [01:18:00] on the on a faculty that you’re with that wants us to remove you from faculty. [01:18:05] What? Yeah. And I and I sat there and I reflected, [01:18:10] and I thought, no. Yes, absolutely. And actually, you [01:18:15] know, I don’t know how much I want to talk about this on the podcast, but I was strong and I said I [01:18:20] was I was firm in my faith. And this is what I mean by I’m now a mother of three. I [01:18:25] have I’ve got privilege that I own my own clinic, that I don’t need that faculty position. [01:18:30] I am okay in being in a position of discomfort and have the [01:18:35] courage to say, actually, when we are talking about children, I hear the cries of all children [01:18:40] equally. Why don’t you that this is shocking to me, and I cannot [01:18:45] fathom how speaking up for equality of all human beings [01:18:50] is politicised. This is not a political matter. This is humanity. And as [01:18:55] health care professionals in particular, where we are trained to be humanitarians, [01:19:00] where we go into healthcare because we care for others. This is incumbent upon us [01:19:05] to speak up for our profession, for our colleagues, for children, for innocent civilians who are [01:19:10] trapped.

Yusra: And if you look back 76 years ago, World War two, [01:19:15] prior to that, when human beings were being killed in their masses, people were silent, turned [01:19:20] another cheek and stayed quiet because they had privilege. It wasn’t them being killed, and they [01:19:25] were afraid to speak up. And also it was legal. So just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s [01:19:30] right. And if it isn’t for the courage of people to stand up against human oppression, there would be no change. [01:19:35] And let me just quantify that. Slavery continued in the Western [01:19:40] world until the late 1800s. So we’re talking about 150 years ago, when there was [01:19:45] a civil war between the North and South America. And Abraham Lincoln, who [01:19:50] stood up for the liberation of slaves, was called an abolitionist. And he was bullied, [01:19:55] and he was reprimanded for standing up and wanting liberty of slaves. Women had to fight [01:20:00] for rights to vote in the United Kingdom until 100 years ago. [01:20:05] In fact, in Switzerland, until 1994, women didn’t have equal rights to work. [01:20:10] So you sometimes have to take courage to stand up for what’s right. And I don’t [01:20:15] think that just because, you know, you know.

Rhona Eskander: You’re going to offend.

Yusra: Someone, we’re going to offend someone. [01:20:20] We should be quiet. And I’m going to go further and say, when you are speaking up [01:20:25] for the rights of an oppressed people, what that doesn’t translate into is denying the rights of [01:20:30] other people. So when women were saying, hey, we want equal rights, that doesn’t mean they were saying men [01:20:35] don’t get equal rights as well. It’s not a threat to men. Hold on. Please let me quantify [01:20:40] this. When when people were standing up and saying black people need equal rights, they weren’t [01:20:45] saying white. They weren’t saying white people don’t need rights. So when we’re saying give equal rights to a set [01:20:50] of people who are oppressed and don’t have equal rights of freedom and movement and dignity and, and, [01:20:55] and and just equality, that doesn’t mean denying the rights of other people to [01:21:00] have rights. Yeah, it’s really.

Rhona Eskander: Important point because I think and we’re very beautifully said, I think [01:21:05] that that’s the problem and the amount of gaslighting that goes on. Yeah. What people don’t [01:21:10] know is, is that my grandfather is Palestinian as well. Um, and again, Christian Palestinian [01:21:15] again, people assume it’s a certain sector. You know, he’s very affected. Had to flee back in 19, [01:21:20] whatever it was. Yeah. Um, and I.

Yusra: Mean, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which is in Palestine. Yes. [01:21:25] So Christianity, that’s the birthplace of Christianity and.

Rhona Eskander: And the abuse that I’ve had from [01:21:30] Dental colleagues, unfortunately, um, telling me that I should be speaking out in the [01:21:35] way that they want me to speak out is crazy. And then on the other side of things, [01:21:40] when I am posting about things like you said, Warchild, Unicef, the [01:21:45] refugee camps that I work in every year, They’re like, you are [01:21:50] a terrorist sympathiser. Unbelievable. And I just don’t understand it because I don’t understand. [01:21:55] Like you said, why aren’t you nuanced? Two truths can be true [01:22:00] at the same time. You can advocate for the life of children, and you can also have [01:22:05] empathy that some people may be suffering right now from anti-Semitism. Let’s just say these [01:22:10] two truths can be true at the same time. But saying that I want children to live is not being [01:22:15] anti-Semitic. Does that make sense? Once one doesn’t translate into another. And that’s such an important point, [01:22:20] because I feel that the reason I understand the reason.

Payman Langroudi: Is there’s almost like an empathy cup. If [01:22:25] your empathy cup is full, you just can’t empathise anymore. Yeah, [01:22:30] it’s a trauma.

Yusra: I think Payman it partly that, sure. And there’s a trauma response here [01:22:35] as well. But there’s also a blind spot and there’s dehumanisation [01:22:40] and we can’t diminish or dismiss that because this and this is how all human atrocities [01:22:45] happen is dehumanisation of the other. When you see them as less than, they’re less human. [01:22:50] They are dogs, they’re son of dogs, they’re agents of evil, they’re rats. Then actually killing them is not [01:22:55] so bad, right? And I would stand firm to say, and if anybody [01:23:00] trolls you and says, actually, why are you standing up for children? These are not combatants. I [01:23:05] don’t care where that child is from. That child can be from any side of this man made war. No children [01:23:10] should be should be killed. Period. But where there is a catastrophe, a human catastrophe for [01:23:15] 15,000 children have been killed. How is this a matter of debate? To stand up for [01:23:20] the rights of these children? It isn’t. And if we accept that it is, [01:23:25] then we’re deflecting and we’ve accepted dehumanisation. And really, I think that is a dangerous place [01:23:30] to go because that is a degradation of the civilised world.

Rhona Eskander: 100%. But also, like [01:23:35] you said, you’re from Iraq. And I do think that there was also this being shown in the Iraq war. The difference was, is [01:23:40] that social media wasn’t a presence in our life and the way that it is today. So this [01:23:45] sort of dehumanisation was going on. And in places like Syria and in lots of other parts of the world. [01:23:50] But I think that what we can all agree on is that our code of conduct towards each other with regards to this conversations [01:23:55] needs to change. You know, and we cannot be there threatening the positions [01:24:00] of health care professionals as a matter of trying to assert [01:24:05] our own projections and our own beliefs. I think that’s where we enter into a really, um, endangered [01:24:10] place. The other thing that I wanted to talk to you about as well is [01:24:15] the kind of language I, I want to have an open [01:24:20] conversation, as I said. So in the Middle East, it was an interesting time for my parents because [01:24:25] my father, as a Copt, was almost persecuted, like Egypt [01:24:30] was really difficult to place to live under the new government for Coptic people.

Rhona Eskander: And [01:24:35] so his whole family went to America and he came here. What I recognised [01:24:40] through my own education and understanding is that there is a real degree [01:24:45] of Islamophobia. Now I’m going to use this word because I was also educated by your sister. [01:24:50] And Islamophobia is a word that was created by the [01:24:55] media and press. And in a way, it instils a view [01:25:00] on people that the word phobia comes with that religion. [01:25:05] And what she said is that you don’t use the word phobia for other religions. So we’re not Christian [01:25:10] phobia, Jew phobia, hinduphobia, etc.. And I [01:25:15] was like, wow, I’ve never really thought about that. And I didn’t even know if the word itself was offensive. [01:25:20] But from your experience, what do you think has been going [01:25:25] on from somebody that has been, you know, a muslim her whole life and how, you know, you touched [01:25:30] a little bit on the Iraq War and how that affected you and what people thought. But I’d really like to understand your experiences. [01:25:35]

Yusra: Of Islamophobia, so to speak. First of all, thank you for acknowledging the word [01:25:40] is not right. Yeah, and it should be anti-Islam. Yeah, I [01:25:45] think that. But you know, it summarises the mindset [01:25:50] which is fear and fear stems from hate, which comes [01:25:55] from stigma and a lack of knowledge ignorance. And [01:26:00] I think that comes from I think the media have a lot to play here, because [01:26:05] if you look at crimes committed by a [01:26:10] Catholic white man in America who goes in and shoots school. [01:26:15] School children. The majority of school shootings have happened by white Catholic [01:26:20] men. What doesn’t happen is people say, oh, look at these white Catholic men, because the crimes of these people [01:26:25] don’t represent the faith and you cannot generalise. And the media don’t even [01:26:30] bring up the faith of the person. Right. But when you see a criminal [01:26:35] called Ahmed or Mohammed who commits a crime, suddenly it’s Muslim terrorists. [01:26:40] And that’s how it’s presented in the Western media. And we have to start to get [01:26:45] mindful of these things. This is called propaganda, and it [01:26:50] manufactures consent for war and for phobia and fear. [01:26:55] And I want to take you back, and I want you to understand that there are 2 billion Muslims [01:27:00] in the world. If they were these bad guys, you wouldn’t have a you [01:27:05] know, how many people, how many countries, Arabian countries have. The whole Middle East are [01:27:10] invading and bombing the Western world. It doesn’t happen. You don’t see it, and [01:27:15] it shouldn’t happen the other way around. And in order to manufacture consent, this is [01:27:20] a real thing. Go and Google manufacturing consent. Countries for years and years and years have [01:27:25] to have to remove the moral barriers for people to descend [01:27:30] for war. And to do so, they have to portray the people that they are going after as [01:27:35] these really bad, dangerous people. Now, you asked me about my father before. My father is from Iraq. [01:27:40] Mhm. Iraq is Babylonian. It’s a cradle of civilisation. It’s where education [01:27:45] was first formed. It’s the place where there was first writing. Written [01:27:50] language was ever formed called cuneiform writing.

Rhona Eskander: Egyptians were pretty up there, too, with [01:27:55] the hieroglyphics.

Yusra: The hieroglyphics. So cuneiform was the first written language, [01:28:00] and it’s known to be Harappan, is known to be the cradle of civilisation. And so sometimes [01:28:05] I hear people go, oh my God, you know, you Muslim women wearing hijab, educated, doing so well, how [01:28:10] come? And I’m like, I don’t understand your question because I’m not a deviation of the norm. I [01:28:15] am the norm. Education. There is this stigma and it’s a stigma [01:28:20] again. And if you look at it in movies, the brown man is always the terrorist, the terrorist. [01:28:25] And so when we start to see it and we remove that blind spot, then we will start to understand [01:28:30] and see the dehumanisation of the brown man or the Arab man or the [01:28:35] Muslim man, which has happened for years and years and years, which has led us to the place that we are [01:28:40] in now, where there is anti-Islamic sentiment. And it’s wrong and it’s wrong in the [01:28:45] same way anti-Semitism is wrong and both should be outlawed. At the moment, anti-Semitism is outlawed, [01:28:50] anti-Islamic sentiments is not. So where it stems from was your question. [01:28:55] I think it stems from ignorance, fear and hate. And I think it’s incumbent upon us all to start [01:29:00] to get educated about it and actually start to challenge what we’ve been told.

Rhona Eskander: I [01:29:05] want to say, though, and this is, again, me playing a little bit of devil’s advocate to understand. [01:29:10] I think that one of the big problems is, is that people are using their religion [01:29:15] to justify their actions. And this does happen in Christianity. So I just think it’s not [01:29:20] as prevalent. So I’m going to give you an example. When Afghanistan banned girls from like being [01:29:25] educated, it was in the name of like women shouldn’t be educated and we’re going to use religion. What’s going [01:29:30] on in Iran, as you know, is women can’t, you know, cross the street without covering their hair. [01:29:35] Otherwise they’ll be killed and tortured in the name of, you know, religion. And so, unfortunately, [01:29:40] people have abused Islam, which I don’t think is the essence of what the Quran [01:29:45] says, but they have taken it. I showed you the other day a very problematic influencer [01:29:50] with a big following that was suddenly spewing out that, you know, a woman’s place is at home, [01:29:55] etc. in the name of what he thinks Islam is. So do you think that people have [01:30:00] misunderstood? And as I said, sure, you do get in Christianity sometimes saying, [01:30:05] you know, this is in the name of this, but I think that you’re seeing more of it where people are justifying [01:30:10] certain actions or certain ways that women should behave in the name of Islam. So do you not think that’s part [01:30:15] of the problem?

Yusra: I think the problem is that we accept the generalisation [01:30:20] of all people based on the actions of the few. It’s the same way. I mean, would you say [01:30:25] this to an Irish person on your podcast and say Catholic Catholicism? Yeah. [01:30:30] I mean, does the IRA represent Catholicism? No, of course not. Yeah. You know, and we’ve got [01:30:35] to make that differentiation and distinguish the two. And I reject the, the concept [01:30:40] that the Taliban is in any way representative of Islam. I [01:30:45] reject the ideology that ISIS are in any way a reflection of Islam. You know, [01:30:50] when I moved to Liverpool, the first place that I ever took, my son, who was two years old at the time, was to a church [01:30:55] where there was a playgroup and immediately, you know, there [01:31:00] Liverpool. I’m in a little white village and it’s not multicultural. [01:31:05] And so I stood out, aesthetically speaking, I, you know, I cover [01:31:10] my hair, not my brain, but, you know, I looked different. And so there was a little bit of a guest fear. [01:31:15] This is eight years ago. And finally a woman came to talk to me. I thought, great, [01:31:20] the first thing she said to me is, what do you think of ISIS? What? And I was gutted. Yes. This [01:31:25] is what she said to me.

Rhona Eskander: That’s horrendous.

Yusra: But this has been my experience on many, many times. I remember [01:31:30] when I took my six month old son to America, to Texas, because my husband was [01:31:35] working there, the people that he was working with, as soon as I walked into the room, were shocked that he’s married [01:31:40] to a woman who’s wearing a scarf. And it was like pindrop silence. And they said, we [01:31:45] just want to ask, what do you think of ISIS? And and I remember Hassan and I looking at [01:31:50] each other, and I’m like, they think that we represent ISIS. Are you kidding me? Let’s talk about ISIS. [01:31:55] Isis are a terrorist organisation that went not into the Western world. They went into Syria and [01:32:00] killed. Who killed Muslims in their masses. Right? Syria was a beautiful [01:32:05] country. That was our destination. Yeah. And people were living and thriving. [01:32:10] They had a gorgeous life. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, businessmen fled persecution [01:32:15] from ISIS, put their children in rubber dinghies not because they were less than, not [01:32:20] because they were pro ISIS. And when they came here, if you listen to the people who were there, [01:32:25] they say ISIS didn’t know how to pray. They didn’t understand the Quran. They didn’t know the direction of prayer. They were not Muslims, and [01:32:30] they do not represent Islam. And when it comes to education of women, I if [01:32:35] you allow me to explain 1400 years ago, when Islam [01:32:40] came was was born, women were given rights to education, equal [01:32:45] rights to education, and actually revered and encouraged to be educated and to be educators. [01:32:50]

Yusra: They were given rights to work. They were given rights to inheritance, [01:32:55] to land ownership, to keep their own name. Because you don’t start and stop when you get married. Being married doesn’t [01:33:00] identify who you are And the wife’s prophet. The prophet’s wife was called Khadija. [01:33:05] She was a woman who was older than him. She was a tradeswoman. She was a trader. She was a business owner. [01:33:10] She employed him and she proposed to him. Okay. So she proposed [01:33:15] to a man that was younger than her, who was her employee. These are all for a reason. These broke the social [01:33:20] norms and constructs at the time as a message that this is the this is the norm. This [01:33:25] this is the the reverence of women in society. So this ideology that women should [01:33:30] be homemakers is personal preference of whoever this man was. And I’ve seen this personal preference [01:33:35] being discussed by men of Muslim faith, men of Christian faith. [01:33:40] That’s what I said, Jewish faith, men of no faith. And they can manipulate Scripture because [01:33:45] man is corrupt to help propagate their own. [01:33:50] Their own selves. This is the corruption of man, not not the. And [01:33:55] this is not representative of the faith. And racism is when we accept stereotyping and [01:34:00] generalisation of negative assumptions of a sex or group of people.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. [01:34:05] I completely I completely agree with what you’re saying, but what I’m asking you is, [01:34:10] do you not think it is dangerous that these people are using religion as [01:34:15] a way to say, this is what the religion says?

Payman Langroudi: People will always use something like religion to [01:34:20] say something. I mean, it’s it’s the point you’re making is.

Yusra: Trolling, right? Don’t get the airtime. Yeah. [01:34:25] There’s always going to be someone out there who’s an extremist in their own right or has or has an opinion. [01:34:30] So how did he, you know, scroll past it doesn’t matter. What’s what [01:34:35] matters is that we’re educated enough to not say, ah, that’s why there’s.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, you’re right, but you’ll misinterpret. [01:34:40] Us three are educated enough. Us three. Yeah. Okay. But I get shocked when [01:34:45] I came into a situation. I don’t want to put her into it. Saying [01:34:50] that I’m compassionate about what’s going on in the world. The immediate response [01:34:55] is in the conflict. She was. And she’s, by the way, white Christian. She said, [01:35:00] yeah, but, you know, I don’t want, you know, Muslims are taking over. I was like, what do you mean? Yeah, and I [01:35:05] was, but she’s an educated woman. She’s not a stupid woman. So I think that you are assuming, you [01:35:10] know, that people are as educated as you.

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: There is a narrative that’s called the Great Replacement [01:35:15] therapy. Uh, great replacement theory, okay. Which is a narrative [01:35:20] that right, in America using and and some of the right ear. Yeah. And it’s this question of, oh, [01:35:25] Muslims are coming here and having children. And and their plan is conspiracy [01:35:30] theories, and their plan is to to have more Muslims and Christians and to replacement. [01:35:35] And it’s it’s been a tool of it’s a political tool, but.

[TRANSITION]: It’s a.

Yusra: Tool [01:35:40] to do what?

[TRANSITION]: To manipulate people towards dehumanisation.

Yusra: Hold on. Once we recognise [01:35:45] this. You’re right. What are you seeing happening in Palestine? They’re called subhuman. They’re called agents of [01:35:50] evil. They’re called sons of dogs. Is it dehumanisation? And that dehumanisation [01:35:55] has to be refuted. It has to be. Because if we allow [01:36:00] that, if we accept that narrative, then we are accepting to dehumanise others which dehumanises [01:36:05] ourselves. If we fail to have empathy for others, we lose our own self compassion. We [01:36:10] literally this is a degradation of society. And if people are talking about oppression of Muslim women, again, I refute [01:36:15] it. If you look at the or the women, Muslim women are uneducated or don’t have equal [01:36:20] rights, Taliban don’t reflect. Of course.

Rhona Eskander: Nor does the Iranian government. I mean, Payman [01:36:25] Payman knows that, you know.

Yusra: Kkk or KKK reflective, of course.

Rhona Eskander: Of course. But what I’m trying [01:36:30] to I get that, I get that right. So you.

Yusra: Tell them, if they say this to you, you tell them.

[TRANSITION]: No, it’s not.

Rhona Eskander: Even about that. [01:36:35] It’s the fact that I see. Okay, sure. I can tell the person that I don’t want to embarrass her. [01:36:40] That really shocked me in this interaction. And I did that and I was like, have a look. I gave her [01:36:45] all of your arguments. But what scares me is that when I meet a lot of educated people [01:36:50] that say that or that say, you know, oh, but what about this? And [01:36:55] what’s and it’s very repressed and da da da da da da da da. And listen, because my mom as well is very passionate about [01:37:00] like the history and culture, especially of the Middle East. You know how being Palestinian, Lebanese [01:37:05] and exactly what you said and you say and I think it annoys me that I see people [01:37:10] using the faith to justify this kind of behaviour. That’s pretty much what I’m saying.

Yusra: Annoys [01:37:15] me too.

Rhona Eskander: It annoys me. It really annoys me.

Yusra: But only thing that you can do to combat fear [01:37:20] and hate.

[TRANSITION]: Look, hate.

Yusra: Is taught, right? So if hate can be taught, so can love. But [01:37:25] it comes down to education. Yeah. And you say that they’re educated. They’re educated in what they. [01:37:30] Where did they receive their education from? Most of them heard stories. They’re not truly [01:37:35] educated about history. They’re not truly educated. You know, I had this conversation with my financial advisor [01:37:40] the other day and he said to me, yeah, but wasn’t Muhammad a warlord as in the Prophet Muhammad? And I said. [01:37:45]

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Yusra: What are you talking about? Islam actually says you’re not allowed to start wars. There were rules of war. [01:37:50] Now we talk about international rules of war. There were rules of war 1400 years ago. Islam [01:37:55] says you can’t start war. You can defend against war, but you can’t start war. You can’t kill children. You can’t kill [01:38:00] women. You can’t cut down trees. There have always been these rules of war. Then he said to me, yeah, but what about women? They’re not [01:38:05] educated in Islam. Like, what are you talking about? Women have been revered. Education has been the pillar [01:38:10] of Islam for years ago. Arabia is where astrology starts. Its philosophy, algebra, [01:38:15] I mean. But people are not educated about that. Most people don’t know that the first university that was [01:38:20] ever formed was formed by a muslim hijabi woman in Fez, Morocco, called Fatima. That was the first university [01:38:25] and it’s a Unesco heritage site. Don’t look at me as a deviation of the norm. If [01:38:30] anything, I could do so much more. And it’s the women in Arabia that have inspired me. [01:38:35] And and when I when you’re talking about education, I think they’ve got skewed education.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I [01:38:40] think they’ve got bias.

Payman Langroudi: You know, these words like Islamophobia. Yeah. [01:38:45] I you know, you’ve got to understand that the alternative to the word Islamophobia [01:38:50] is anti-Muslim hate.

[TRANSITION]: Yes. But why don’t they use that?

Payman Langroudi: Because, well, anti-Muslim hate [01:38:55] is three words.

[TRANSITION]: You tell me.

Payman Langroudi: Um, because it’s three words. Yeah. And Islamophobia is one word. [01:39:00] Because because anti-islamism. Islamism is different to Islam. Yeah. [01:39:05]

[TRANSITION]: Islamism. Anti-muslim.

Yusra: Yeah. Well, anti-Muslim.

[TRANSITION]: Well. But what I’m saying is sometimes, [01:39:10] sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes these words evolve in that way because of things like this. Also [01:39:15] the ISIS point. Yeah. If something’s been in the news. Yeah, [01:39:20] it’s natural to bring it up. Yeah. So today some Jewish guy [01:39:25] in Australia is being asked, what do you think about Israel? Yeah, yeah. Um, while [01:39:30] the. You’re right, while the, uh, Iraq war was on. Yeah. Some American guy in Buenos [01:39:35] Aires was being asked, what do you think about. Yeah. So if eight years ago when, when ISIS [01:39:40] was really at its peak. Yeah. It’s the way it’s the way humans interact. [01:39:45]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. And you know, look, it doesn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Mean that person.

[TRANSITION]: Was saying.

Payman Langroudi: You’re an ISIS sympathiser. [01:39:50]

[TRANSITION]: No, but, you know, it’s the way humans interact.

Rhona Eskander: But I understand [01:39:55] what you’re saying. In the same way it really it upsets me that people [01:40:00] assume things about my religion and culture just because I’m Arab.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, but, you know.

Rhona Eskander: But it does annoy [01:40:05] me because I think that’s lack of education.

Payman Langroudi: People don’t realise there are Christian Arabs.

Rhona Eskander: Apart from [01:40:10] the Christian Arabs. They’ll make assumptions about being Arab. You know, and I had assumptions about my [01:40:15] father and things I did and Egypt and Lebanon and like, okay, look, I don’t listen. [01:40:20] If someone asks me to reel off, like, Chinese culture, sure. I’m not well versed with Chinese [01:40:25] culture.

[TRANSITION]: Naturally, but.

Rhona Eskander: I just feel I really try hard not to.

[TRANSITION]: Project. [01:40:30] That’s a.

Payman Langroudi: Good point. So, yeah, you’ve got to understand that point. Yeah. My my [01:40:35] my, uh, team. Yeah. She said to me. Yeah. You know, when we’re talking, we call you an Arab. [01:40:40] Yeah. I’m not, I’m not an Arab.

[TRANSITION]: People call me all the time, but I’m person.

Rhona Eskander: I’m [01:40:45] like, I’m Arab.

[TRANSITION]: Hold on, hold on.

Payman Langroudi: I said I’m Persian. We don’t even speak.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [01:40:50]

Payman Langroudi: And then she said to me, she’s from Romania. She said, what do you call me? Eastern European. [01:40:55] Yeah. Yeah. So, so I’m so different to the Lithuanians and. But you just classes all of Eastern [01:41:00] European. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So the Norse, the Norse. My wife is a Christian Arab. Yeah. [01:41:05] So I understand exactly what you’re saying.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you don’t know anything about Chinese [01:41:10] languages, Chinese, different foods. Chinese you don’t.

[TRANSITION]: And people aren’t [01:41:15] expected to know these details.

Yusra: You’re right, you’re right. Absolutely. Payman is absolutely spot on. [01:41:20] But then what’s incumbent upon us is prior to passing judgement based on feeling is to find [01:41:25] out facts.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s why I said to you. Because when I when I had a catch up with Zainab yesterday, it [01:41:30] was so great for her and we had a conversation, no defence. And she was like, I [01:41:35] want to tell you about this. And I was like, fascinating. Now I know, now I know how was I meant to know before? And also [01:41:40] I didn’t even know I was causing offence by it because I just thought it was a word, you know? So I think the most [01:41:45] important thing, and that’s why I wanted to have this conversation on this podcast, is we have to have conversations, right, [01:41:50] I do I want to do conversation as the way. Now, before we move on from this topic, [01:41:55] I also.

Yusra: Want to say one other thing. You know, you you mentioned about homemakers, and I want to [01:42:00] say, because this is something I feel really passionate about, is I get [01:42:05] a lot. I got asked a lot about how do you do it, your mum of three, your business owner. And I [01:42:10] see women from all walks of life with different roles. And I have women who come in who are apologetic [01:42:15] for their roles as homemakers and maker is not less than [01:42:20] being in the workplace. And it’s really important that we make that clear, because [01:42:25] that role of raising children, it’s huge, is is huge, is difficult, is 24 [01:42:30] over seven and is a part of the team effort. If the husband is the breadwinner, [01:42:35] sometimes the husband’s the homemaker and and the woman is a breadwinner doesn’t really matter what works within [01:42:40] that family unit. But the idea that the homemaker is less than absolutely [01:42:45] needs to stop.

Rhona Eskander: I think that we need to stop bashing each other as women. I’m going [01:42:50] to take men out of the equation because what I’ve seen is, is, yes, women may get bashed by men, but they also [01:42:55] get bashed by other women. What you choose to do in your life is what you choose to [01:43:00] do. Whether you choose to have children, whether you choose to be a full time housewife, whether you choose to be a career woman, whether you [01:43:05] choose to do both, whether you choose to get a nanny, you have to do what is right for you. And we have got [01:43:10] to stop bashing each other. We have got to start supporting each other. One thing I want to [01:43:15] lastly say about the thing that’ll ever happen, I’ll come back on to that. But I want to bring this point. [01:43:20] I want to bring I want to bring up this point about, do you have you seen the film? You resemble me? [01:43:25] No, it’s a masterpiece. Okay. My Egyptian friend Dina Amir, she [01:43:30] is a journalist. Okay, so let me tell you a little about this. You both need to watch it. It’s an absolute masterpiece. [01:43:35] She created a film. She lived in Paris. She grew up in Paris. She understood the racism [01:43:40] that goes in France.

Rhona Eskander: Huge segregation, huge racism. Do you remember when there [01:43:45] was all the bombings in Paris again, the terrorist attacks. Je suis Charlie, all of that stuff that happened [01:43:50] that night, I think a nightclub had been bombed or something like that. So she was working [01:43:55] for vice. The magazine vice called her and said, we want you to cover this. It was [01:44:00] a female, the first female terrorist attack. So I don’t know. They said that she. [01:44:05] So they said she blew herself up. Now, the kind of fake news that was [01:44:10] propagating all over Paris that night. Cnn no one knew the facts. Everyone [01:44:15] was giving the story. The. The mother of the female terrorist [01:44:20] would only allow Dina to interview her because she said, you look like my daughter. [01:44:25] Hence you resemble me. They were a Moroccan family. And then when Dina [01:44:30] went into the story, she realised that she also was propagating this news around something [01:44:35] that was so much deeper. And she ended up making a film about [01:44:40] this female terrorist and dispelling it. Now the beauty about the story [01:44:45] is the girl came from a broken home from Morocco. They were segregated and ostracised [01:44:50] in society. The father was a gambler. The mother couldn’t look after the children. [01:44:55] The children were torn apart. The childhood.

[TRANSITION]: Was.

Rhona Eskander: Broken. She ended [01:45:00] up in prostitution. In this, in this, in this, in this society rejected [01:45:05] her and she was a human being that was a shell of herself. And [01:45:10] she got a call from her cousin. I’m an ISIS. Isis is a community. [01:45:15] We can help you. You’re going to get love. I’m going to give you love. You’re going [01:45:20] to have a family. You’re going to have a husband. She didn’t join you. Don’t become [01:45:25] born a terrorist. You don’t come out of the womb being like, I aspire to join ISIS. [01:45:30] She was a broken human. She was groomed.

[TRANSITION]: As a broken shell of herself.

Rhona Eskander: Broken child. And it’s a societal [01:45:35] problem. I’m sorry. I’m going to say it. You might say, because I’ve heard the argument. But France [01:45:40] gave her a chance. France took her in. She should be grateful to France. And, you know, it’s really [01:45:45] scary because when she got adopted, when she got taken in by some of the families, they tried to [01:45:50] force her to eat pork. They tried to force her to straighten her hair. You know what I mean? They wouldn’t accept her culture. [01:45:55] And that’s not what she ran away.

[TRANSITION]: How do you feel about paedophiles?

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean? How did that come up.

Payman Langroudi: In [01:46:00] the same? In the same sense that people aren’t born paedophiles.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, I think your store is going to have some empathy [01:46:05] for what I’m saying, because. And maybe this is the end. But of course, I don’t agree with paedophilia.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t agree with it. But in [01:46:10] that same sense that.

Rhona Eskander: I think that some people that come out, they might have been abused as a child. I’m [01:46:15] not saying it justifies what they do, but the way that we treat people that.

[TRANSITION]: Have issues, a.

Rhona Eskander: Similar thing [01:46:20] allows them to behave the way. But it’s the same way that we treat addicts. We punish addicts. [01:46:25] Why do people become addicts? It’s complex. Gabor Maté talks about this, and I think the notion [01:46:30] of people joining terrorists, even what was her name that tried to come back to the country, people.

[TRANSITION]: That joined 16 [01:46:35] years old and.

Rhona Eskander: Tried to come that join these terrorist organisations. It [01:46:40] is not in the name of religion, it’s in the name of people being broken and wanting to find love and community [01:46:45] crazily. You know, there’s almost like an oxymoron in it. Yeah. And they go and they realise that [01:46:50] that’s not the reality.

Payman Langroudi: Where can you watch the film?

Rhona Eskander: Um, you can get it, I think, on Netflix or honestly, both of you, [01:46:55] it’s called You Resemble Me. It’s the most beautiful film I’ve ever seen. That’s incredible.

[TRANSITION]: And she gives.

Rhona Eskander: A voice [01:47:00] to that person. You know what I mean? Which people might not agree with. But I think everyone has that history. [01:47:05]

Yusra: Yeah, I think that this is a really interesting conversation. And I often [01:47:10] think about children who come from war, who have lost everything. When they’ve lost their family, they’re going to breed. [01:47:15]

[TRANSITION]: A new what’s.

Yusra: Going to happen there when they’ve watched their that when, when they watch [01:47:20] their mother and father and brother torn to bits and the world has let them down in [01:47:25] their eyes, they become vulnerable then to manipulation, and you can [01:47:30] see.

[TRANSITION]: The potential.

Yusra: Trajectory.

[TRANSITION]: Absolutely lost.

Payman Langroudi: Children.

Yusra: I mean, if you lost your.

[TRANSITION]: Child, what would you.

Yusra: Do? [01:47:35] Right? That these are things that we need to understand as a society so that we can [01:47:40] treat the root cause and stop war. You know, calling for peace [01:47:45] should never be a controversy. And I think it’s also important that we separate [01:47:50] people from the policies of their government in the same way that you are basically telling the story [01:47:55] about this woman and how and why she became a terrorist. And it’s really important to never generalise, [01:48:00] and it’s important to understand that the actions of the few don’t represent the masses of [01:48:05] a faith. And that’s why we have to ensure that in our society there is [01:48:10] no space for hate, there is no space for anti-Semitism, there is no space for anti-Islamic hate. There [01:48:15] is no space for racism. And the only way that we can stop wars and we [01:48:20] can stop hate and we can stop violence against others is stopping dehumanisation [01:48:25] and teaching respect and love and tolerance. And that.

Rhona Eskander: I think, really does [01:48:30] start also in the healthcare profession. It’s really important. And that’s why I think my message to [01:48:35] a lot of people is that we cannot speak to each other in that way. Agree. We could talk [01:48:40] for ages. I’m literally like, I can see, I can see rich. Kind of like peering over [01:48:45] at times. Yes. I also wanted to ask you, I know we kind of touched [01:48:50] on this a little bit about wearing your hijab, right. Again, I think [01:48:55] people it’s important to recognise that people do for choice, you know, because I think there [01:49:00] is this misconception and as like you said, as soon as you’re a woman that wears a hijab, you are a certain [01:49:05] type of woman. Do you want to tell us about any difficulties or challenges or misconceptions [01:49:10] that you faced within your own profession? You’ve touched on Liverpool a little bit and you know [01:49:15] how people have these preconceived ideas. Has there been anything within the work space that has made it challenging? [01:49:20]

Yusra: Luckily, not in the UK. Great. And I actually also worked in banking for a short period of time. [01:49:25] I didn’t ever feel held back by hijab. No. And I’ve been really clear that [01:49:30] my decision to cover my hair is a choice that I make as an empowered woman, [01:49:35] and I don’t think anyone I have not noticed or been aware of anyone [01:49:40] treating me differently in the UK. But when I have been abroad, when [01:49:45] I went to my first conference abroad in Chicago, do you remember after did you go to that Chicago conference? [01:49:50] There was a big Dental conference in Chicago. When I was there. I was signing up to the literally [01:49:55] doing my registration, and this man came right up to me and [01:50:00] he said, you don’t belong here. And in.

[TRANSITION]: The conference.

Yusra: That’s it. He was a dentist [01:50:05] and he said.

Payman Langroudi: Winter mid-winter.

[TRANSITION]: Conference.

Yusra: That’s the one. It was mid winter conference. [01:50:10] And he said, take that scarf off your head, really take that tip. And he just kept going and and [01:50:15] I, you know, there’s no I didn’t have the toolkit to deal with that. I didn’t know [01:50:20] how to respond to him. So I just thought, give no air time, you know, don’t pander. [01:50:25] Eventually what you ignore will will disappear. And he just continued and continued. And then a crowd [01:50:30] was coming around. Nobody stood up for me, and it was just really scary. And then one [01:50:35] of my close friends who’s Jewish, her name is Claire, basically said to the guy, get lost, get away [01:50:40] from her. And then he listened to her and he went away. And she stuck with me for the rest of the time. That [01:50:45] was probably the scariest experience that I had. And now when [01:50:50] I go to Monaco every year, I go to Monaco, to a big MWC, the World [01:50:55] Congress in France. As you know, you’re not allowed to wear a scarf in public place in, [01:51:00] um, in the beach.

[TRANSITION]: As a scarf.

Rhona Eskander: As well. I thought for some reason I prohibited burqa. So now it’s [01:51:05] a hijab as well?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Yusra: So every time and women have been arrested, fines [01:51:10] been forced to take off their clothes, remove their scarf when they’re on the beach. And this is well documented. [01:51:15] So whenever we go there, a lot of them want to go to the beach. And, you know, I just [01:51:20] I obviously don’t go because I don’t want to create a scene.

[TRANSITION]: So this is in Monaco.

Rhona Eskander: So there’s [01:51:25] the rules apply to Monaco as well I assume.

Yusra: So I assume so but I haven’t looked into it. Yeah. [01:51:30] So those are the times that I’m conscious of it where I know that I may be exposed. [01:51:35] Exactly, exactly. But you know, I have patients who come and travel [01:51:40] from all around the world to see me, including patients from France, that I always say separate the [01:51:45] policies from the government of the people. I don’t want people listening to this and going, oh, she’s slandering France. I’m not. Yeah. These are the [01:51:50] realities of the experiences of people who may wear a scarf and therefore demonstrate [01:51:55] their faith in countries where it’s prohibited to do so. I’m lucky that we are afforded [01:52:00] liberty and freedom of choice here. I worry about a day that we might not remember when the YSL [01:52:05] co-founder and business owner is, about ten years ago, made a statement that wearing [01:52:10] a scarf is the enslavement of women and that people should be encouraged to pull scarves of women’s [01:52:15] heads. Those are the times where I’ve thought, oh my God, my safety was a concern, [01:52:20] but I haven’t experienced that.

Rhona Eskander: We’re lucky the UK is extremely democratic. One [01:52:25] of the big reasons my dad wanted to leave Saudi and bring us up here is because of the democracy [01:52:30] in the UK. I mean, like this was Saudi like 37 years ago, you know, so that’s [01:52:35] not what it is now. Of course, Saudis becoming like one of the most like it places now. [01:52:40] But yeah, you know, we’re lucky because I think the beautiful thing about the UK, especially London, [01:52:45] I love it. You go to a bus stop, you’ll see someone Chinese, black, Arab, white all [01:52:50] sitting together. And I love it.

[TRANSITION]: And I think it’s important, you know, I think.

Yusra: It’s important even within my clinic [01:52:55] my business managers is is Jewish. My skin concierge lady. Her name is ocean. [01:53:00] She’s Baha’i. My my other manager Lane is atheist. Some of them are Christian and [01:53:05] we’re multicultural. Multi-faith.

[TRANSITION]: We all love each other.

Yusra: There’s no issue. We have compassion [01:53:10] for each other. The first point at which ever their democracy is at stake, [01:53:15] I’ll be the first person to advocate for them and and safeguard them.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect. Gosh. [01:53:20] So I feel like we could talk for hours and hours. Um, I want to end by asking you [01:53:25] what the future holds for doctor clinics. Like you’ve won best aesthetic [01:53:30] practitioner, like, 700 years in a row. So we’ve ticked that multi-award winning and etc. but [01:53:35] is there anything new exciting on the horizon?

[TRANSITION]: I just think.

Yusra: Continual learning every day continue [01:53:40] growing every day. I have little projects in the pipeline which will be revealed in [01:53:45] due course, but.

[TRANSITION]: Just.

Yusra: This is.

Rhona Eskander: Not the soft launch then?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, no, that’s not good. [01:53:50]

Yusra: So genuinely, I just am excited by what I do every single day. I jump out of bed in [01:53:55] love with what I do. I’m lucky. I literally, I think us dentists went into it because we care for people, [01:54:00] and it’s that beautiful combination of art, science and people. I just want to keep doing that and giving back to the profession [01:54:05] and growing and learning until I die.

[TRANSITION]: I love that so much.

Rhona Eskander: And what would be your [01:54:10] advice for perhaps young dentists that are thinking about leaving dentistry but are scared.

[TRANSITION]: To. [01:54:15]

Yusra: Leaving dentistry. So like.

Rhona Eskander: In the same way, I guess the way that you have it in terms of like not [01:54:20] doing clinical dentistry and focusing on facial aesthetics.

Yusra: Find your passion and excel [01:54:25] at it.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, and.

Yusra: I think believe in yourself. There’s nothing that you cannot do.

[TRANSITION]: Perfect. [01:54:30] Do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think sometimes it’s the other way around. Excel at something and that will become your passion because [01:54:35] a lot of people, they spend their whole time thinking, well is my passion facial aesthetics? Is [01:54:40] it is it endo? Is it Berio? Is it my. My advice is get really [01:54:45] good at one of them and it will be your passion.

Yusra: It’s a good advice as well. For me, [01:54:50] I found something that really I was. The passion came first. The [01:54:55] passion and the why came before the excelling at it. And by the way, I never.

[TRANSITION]: You.

Yusra: Know, whilst [01:55:00] it’s always humbling and nice to be recognised, best aesthetic whatever I don’t take these awards to [01:55:05] actually mean that I’m the best or the best that I can be. Of course, that’s not how I see it, and I, I [01:55:10] never want to actually consider myself as an expert or ever think that I know at all. [01:55:15] You know, because I don’t I don’t think I’ll ever know at all. I’ve been doing this for 14 years. I’m still learning new things [01:55:20] every single day. So I don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: I think the one thing that I’ll say about awards, because I have [01:55:25] a lot of young dentists that get really upset and so forth, I it took me a really [01:55:30] long time to like everything. Come on, give me a break, universe. But like, I was never you know, it took [01:55:35] me a really long time to win awards. And actually, I remember when I first opened up my practice and poured my heart into [01:55:40] it. The only thing I really wanted was to win an award for, like, the best practice, because, like, I’ve [01:55:45] done everything and we went to the private dentistry awards and I was up for like loads of awards, and we walked [01:55:50] away empty handed and we had a whole table and I was so embarrassed and I called, I called, I called [01:55:55] Joe the next day and I was just sobbing to him and I was like, I’m total failure. [01:56:00] I was like, love it. I was like, I’m a total failure. And Joe and like [01:56:05] Joe always says, what you say. He’s like, I can’t deal with, like how insecure you are. [01:56:10] Like, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: I.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t go for awards with enlighten in case I lose.

Yusra: Really fear [01:56:15] of.

[TRANSITION]: Failure is huge.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it? The fact that you actually went for them itself is very brave.

[TRANSITION]: But the point. [01:56:20]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. But but the point is, is that I always [01:56:25] say when I now I go to these awards because I’ve been asked to present them or I’ve asked to be a judge. [01:56:30] When I see young people get so disheartened, I’m like, it really doesn’t define you. Like, I.

[TRANSITION]: Bet. [01:56:35]

Rhona Eskander: I didn’t even really get into a practice nor get a job because people didn’t like me. But you [01:56:40] know what? That pain. I turned it into power. My pain. I turned it into power because it propelled me [01:56:45] forward. So I think, you know, you’re right. These awards do not define. It’s an incredible achievement. I [01:56:50] know you know that. You don’t take them as like. It means that you’re the best in the world. But also I recognise [01:56:55] how much hard work goes into them. And it’s definitely, you know, it’s deserved. Thank you.

[TRANSITION]: So much. [01:57:00] Thank you, thank you.

Rhona Eskander: There’s an amazing thank you guys by.