Hunter Shepherd: My dad turned around and looked at me and he said, do you want to be buried or do you want to be cremated? [00:00:05] Because if you don’t stop, that’s the only choice you have left. Wow. Um, and that, like, really hit me hard [00:00:10] because I knew in that moment that I was literally dying. And if I wasn’t going to [00:00:15] die right then, I was going to suffer until I did.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:25] is mind movers. Moving [00:00:30] the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. [00:00:35] Your hosts Rhona Eskander and [00:00:40] Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello everyone and welcome to another [00:00:45] episode of Mind Movers Dental Leaders. By the way, on that note, a lot of people have been asking [00:00:50] me how do I find the single episodes? So if you type in Dental, Leaders on Spotify [00:00:55] and Apple as well, everywhere. Yeah, you can find it. People also ask for the long form videos. [00:01:00] Sometimes this takes a little bit longer, but drop me a DM on Instagram which is at Doctor Rhona Eskander [00:01:05] and I can guide you to that. I am so thrilled because as this podcast [00:01:10] is growing, we’ve had the most incredible guests and today we have our first international guest, [00:01:15] Hunter Michael Shepherd, who is an incredible content creator. He [00:01:20] has been helping addicts all over the world. He has also been in recovery for how many years [00:01:25] now? Hunter?

Hunter Shepherd: Six and a half years?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, six and a half years. And through his own journey and process, which we’ll be discussing [00:01:30] today, he is going to be shedding a light on addiction. We actually [00:01:35] had well, Payman had someone else on the podcast episode 210. Yeah. [00:01:40]

Payman Langroudi: She she told Jane.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And she also talks openly about her own addiction, which was [00:01:45] extremely inspiring, especially for a woman that had to turn up to work [00:01:50] as a healthcare professional knowing that she, you know, was drinking, doing drugs, etc.. [00:01:55] So I’m really excited to delve into this topic further. Welcome, Hunter.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, [00:02:00] thank you for having me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So happy to have you. Okay, Hunter. So I love [00:02:05] to start with guests. From the very beginning. We try not to present too [00:02:10] many questions because we want to kind of, you know, get people on as their most honest [00:02:15] selves. So talk to me a little bit about your upbringing. So you grew up in the States, where did you grow up [00:02:20] and what was your childhood like?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, so I grew up in a place called the Mid-Ohio Valley, which is, [00:02:25] um, it’s where the Ohio River runs, right between Ohio and West Virginia. [00:02:30] And, uh, you know, the first 11 years of my life, [00:02:35] like, I had a great childhood, like, you know, my my siblings were there. You [00:02:40] know, I have two present parents that never use drugs in front of me. Never. My mom’s, I think, drank maybe [00:02:45] like, five times in her life or something. Yeah, my my life was good until I turned [00:02:50] 12 years old. And then a lot of different stuff kind of happened at once. Um, [00:02:55] I had, uh, I had crooked teeth. Absolutely hated that about myself. Uh, [00:03:00] I was overweight. I had this, like, weird haircut. And I think I started to realise all of that, that I wasn’t [00:03:05] happy with who I was as a person at 12. And also, I got prescribed [00:03:10] to Adderall at 12 years old, like a big prescription in America. We over prescribe [00:03:15] everything for ADHD. Yeah, well, for Add without hyperactivity, which [00:03:20] is what is crazy about it, because it still worked as like a stimulant for me. Like it it did [00:03:25] help me focus, but I could actually I learned from a very, you know, early age [00:03:30] that I could abuse that prescription and get high from it still. And then I [00:03:35] started to smoke weed and drink at 12 years old. Um, and that mixture of [00:03:40] Adderall, weed and alcohol made me very, like, angry and aggressive [00:03:45] young man. Wow. Yeah. Do you find the arseholes? [00:03:50]

Payman Langroudi: Overprescribed?

Hunter Shepherd: Um. I find that now there’s more [00:03:55] regulations around it in the States. But I do find that the UK [00:04:00] is, you know, 5 to 10 years behind the States in a lot of ways. And I do see [00:04:05] that it’s becoming a problem here now. Uh, just like I see the OxyContin [00:04:10] and prescription pain medication, uh, is also becoming a problem here. [00:04:15]

Rhona Eskander: So I actually did I tell you about the ADHD? Yeah. So I got diagnosed two weeks ago. [00:04:20] And I think just as you were describing, a lot of people would [00:04:25] say, like, is it did you have any childhood problems? Did you get bad grades? Could you not concentrate? And I [00:04:30] wasn’t necessarily that child like maybe in my earlier years. But then I went on to be able [00:04:35] to study really well and get the grades for dental school. Right. So people like, you’re doing fine. But I started [00:04:40] to notice things in my adult life, and I think I told Payman like you, you paid someone to tell you that diagnosis. [00:04:45] I could have told you that for free, because I think that I’m quite high functioning with [00:04:50] it is in like I can multitask ten things in one day, which is when people like how do you do [00:04:55] it all? But it’s the only way my brain works. Functioning at like 50% of ten things to do at once, rather than [00:05:00] one thing at 100%. Yeah, I was offered medication and I declined for now. And I think the [00:05:05] general consensus was is that my life is under control. But I’ve had to use [00:05:10] a lot of people and implement a lot of things to gain that control, especially running a dental practice. [00:05:15] And I guess I wonder, though, could medicine be a better [00:05:20] thing? I mean, are you still on the medication now and what’s your thoughts?

Hunter Shepherd: No, actually, [00:05:25] as somebody in recovery, you really can’t take narcotics. [00:05:30] And that’s labelled as a narcotic. It’s a stimulant. And a lot later [00:05:35] in life stimulants were my drug of choice. So to take something like [00:05:40] that would potentially, you know, trigger whatever a relapse. And I [00:05:45] just wouldn’t risk it. I’ve learned to live with it. You know, I am quite scattered sometimes, [00:05:50] but like you said, I can get a lot done in one day. And I’ve just learned to manage [00:05:55] it and live with it. I don’t feel like you have to medicate everything, you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: That’s really interesting. [00:06:00] Okay, so at 12 you recognised this was happening. And then where was the point where you felt it was becoming [00:06:05] a problem.

Hunter Shepherd: Well, it was way it was way later. I don’t think I ever [00:06:10] truly accepted that I was like an addict until I was probably 20 to [00:06:15] 21 years old, and there was like a lot of, like, chaos and stuff that happened in between [00:06:20] 12 and and then, yeah, I think my dad was the one that recognised [00:06:25] it first. And his way of like disciplining me was to [00:06:30] be, like, almost aggressive, like angry, confrontational. But like I said, I was, [00:06:35] you know, I was mixing alcohol and weed and Adderall and I was angry and [00:06:40] we would actually get in fights like fist fights. And I was the aggressor from like literally 12 years [00:06:45] old. So I also got arrested for the first time at 12 years old. So a mixture of all [00:06:50] of these things happened, you know, at that time.

Payman Langroudi: Going through your head at 12 when. [00:06:55] Yeah, you go from being a relatively normal 11 year old to at 12, [00:07:00] all of this happening to you, you feel I mean.

Hunter Shepherd: I think [00:07:05] that especially with being arrested, I was in fear. There was a lot of fear [00:07:10] related to that. And the first time they put me in a, uh, like [00:07:15] in the in a cell for 23 hours a day for a week. And I was with another person, and there [00:07:20] was a lot of fear around, like, you know, what’s going to happen? Pretty much. [00:07:25] But when it came to, like, the drugs, the problem is I had all of this [00:07:30] chaos going on in my head and in my life, and the weed and [00:07:35] the alcohol became a solution to that chaos. It made all of that go away. It made me [00:07:40] feel confident. It made me feel comfortable. It gave me like a thing to relate with other people, [00:07:45] like the town that I actually grew up in. It only had 1200 people in it, so everybody knew everybody. [00:07:50] I definitely wasn’t one of like the the popular kids. And I feel that that, [00:07:55] you know, it helped me connect with at least, you know, somebody else.

Payman Langroudi: Something to talk about. [00:08:00] Yeah, yeah. And then where did that go drugs wise. Did you. Yeah. So things. [00:08:05]

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah I did start to experiment with like psychedelics, like mushrooms, [00:08:10] LSD, you know, stuff like that. Um.

Rhona Eskander: Did that have a negative [00:08:15] or a positive effect? And the reason why I say that is because we’ve had a lot of people on this podcast who’s, um, and [00:08:20] I’m particularly interested in psychedelic therapy within the medical space. And there has been quite [00:08:25] a lot of positive reviews on how psychedelics have managed their mental health, but obviously they [00:08:30] have to be in the right setting with the correct facilitator. What’s your views or your experience?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, I mean, I won’t [00:08:35] ever say that I had a bad experience on psychedelics. I think that I abused [00:08:40] them, um, in a way where it wasn’t normal, it wasn’t okay. It was [00:08:45] actually an addiction for me. But I do believe that psychedelics use, [00:08:50] like you said, in the right setting, the right person are huge, a huge benefit to people. [00:08:55] It’s a tool that people should utilise, but it has to be in the right setting. You know, you can’t just [00:09:00] like go off. You know, a lot of people just like go off to some like jungle country in South America [00:09:05] and like take whatever with whoever facilitating it. And I think that that’s dangerous. [00:09:10] You know.

Rhona Eskander: My question for you though, is under the AA umbrella, are you even allowed to do.

Payman Langroudi: That?

Hunter Shepherd: I [00:09:15] mean, I know people that do, uh, but I personally feel that it’s a bit risky. You know, [00:09:20] I think maybe ten years from now when there’s been enough studies done and enough [00:09:25] evidence and proof that people can be okay, you know, then maybe it could be a tool that’s used. [00:09:30] But for right now, it’s too risky to to tell. I mean, I wouldn’t I don’t know if I would gamble [00:09:35] with it personally, you know.

Rhona Eskander: So all right. So we’re at this stage now and [00:09:40] I guess this is impacting school. You weren’t able to go to school. [00:09:45] How did that map out as well. And you’re kind of like working life. And were you kicked out of home [00:09:50] you know. So what happened after. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: So in between the period of 12 [00:09:55] and 16 years old, I continued to go like in and out. I got kicked [00:10:00] out of school a bunch. I never, you know, I was super rebellious. We’re getting fights at school like [00:10:05] arguments with teachers, all of that. And they would they would kick me out of school. And throughout that [00:10:10] whole period of time, I would be on and off of, uh, juvenile probation. And [00:10:15] at 15 years old, I was put into a place that because [00:10:20] my dad and I got in a fight like 3 or 4 times and I got in trouble for it. Uh, they actually gave me [00:10:25] a juvenile felony, and, um, they put me into a program that was, like, [00:10:30] meant to be like my like, last chance before they put me into juvenile prison. [00:10:35] And it was only it was only supposed to be a four month long program, but I actually [00:10:40] didn’t participate in the program, and it turned into an 11 [00:10:45] month stay. So essentially, uh, I got out after that 11 months [00:10:50] and went like straight back to to smoking weed and failing drug tests and all of that got kicked [00:10:55] out of school again. And I knew that my probation officer was [00:11:00] done dealing with me and that she was going to put me into juvenile prison. Uh, so I went on [00:11:05] the run from home, went on the run from her, and at 16 years old, I [00:11:10] used heroin for the first time. Wow. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Injected.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Well, [00:11:15] the first time I did, I injected it. But, uh, actually, for like, the [00:11:20] next period, probably like four years or so. Uh, I didn’t use [00:11:25] it like that again, but eventually I did fall back into that. But the very first time I did it, I injected it. Yeah. [00:11:30]

Rhona Eskander: And do you think that that was when it was the [00:11:35] worst in your life? That’s when the addiction like, propelled or, you know, was at its highest [00:11:40] because something like heroin, you know, you’re, you’re there, you’re fully into the addiction.

Hunter Shepherd: Well, [00:11:45] so it wasn’t a good experience for a song for me. I was like, [00:11:50] so sick. I mean, I puked for like hours. I was like, not not waking up, like puking. [00:11:55] And, uh, it just wasn’t a good experience. And the next day, the police [00:12:00] found out where I was, and they came and found me and put me into juvenile prison. So which [00:12:05] was I was there for about six months or so. And I mean, it was it [00:12:10] was bad. There were like 80 people. Riots. Um, there were gangs in there, people that [00:12:15] were in there for, like, murdering their family. I mean, it was it was really bad, but [00:12:20] it was the only place that I ever had, like true structure. And I was able [00:12:25] to, um, uh, I don’t know if you know what a GED is, but a GED is where you test [00:12:30] out of high school. Um, so I was able to focus on that and, like, actually test out of high school so I [00:12:35] didn’t have to go back to school whenever I was released, because school was never, like a thing for me. [00:12:40] I couldn’t I just couldn’t do it. Um, I was never able to stay consistent. I was always getting kicked [00:12:45] out. And then when I was released, uh, I was put on to. So in the [00:12:50] state of Ohio, you can be on juvenile parole and go to juvenile prison until you turn 21. [00:12:55] And so when I was released, I was put on the juvenile parole, [00:13:00] and I started to smoke this drug called spice, which is like a big problem [00:13:05] here in the UK. It’s like a synthetic drug. It’s it’s a bad, it’s bad. I mean, [00:13:10] it’s a huge problem, especially within the prison systems. Um, because it’s, it’s [00:13:15] easy to sneak into, like a prison, like undetectable or whatever. And at the time in America, [00:13:20] they were just selling it, like in corner shops, like you could just like walk in and buy it like in any corner shop [00:13:25] wherever, and.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t regulated at all.

Hunter Shepherd: It wasn’t at all. It was being produced here in the UK [00:13:30] and shipped to the US. And, um, I started smoking it because [00:13:35] I could pass a drug test. So, you know, I didn’t want to go back to juvenile prison. [00:13:40]

Payman Langroudi: So they weren’t testing for it. So that was your drug of choice for that reason?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah. And I didn’t [00:13:45] realise that it was as physically addictive as what it was. Um, I mean, it, like, had a [00:13:50] hold on me like I would if I tried to stop using it. I would withdraw for like days, [00:13:55] literally for days, three, four days at a time, trying to quit and, uh, like, worse than [00:14:00] heroin withdrawals. All of that. It was it was a bad drug. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But, you know, it’s [00:14:05] amazing as well that you were able to get again. It just shows we were having a discussion on [00:14:10] last week’s show about schools and how, like, the educational system doesn’t [00:14:15] allow people that are neurodiverse or have a different way of thinking to [00:14:20] excel. And you have to kind of like pigeonhole yourself into way, but like you said, like [00:14:25] a different type of structure. I’m not recommending, you know, that we send everyone to jail that’s got ADHD. But you [00:14:30] were able to fulfil your studies, you know, and I think that’s really interesting that you were able to focus [00:14:35] in a different way. Yeah. And it shows the educational system also wasn’t meeting your needs. So [00:14:40] do you feel that time in prison was quite transformational at that time, or were [00:14:45] you still struggling when you came out?

Hunter Shepherd: Oh yeah, I literally I mean I went to using straight away [00:14:50] like straight away I think a really it was, it was bad [00:14:55] for me. And the only good thing that came from it was the education. That was [00:15:00] like literally the only good thing it it introduced me to other people that [00:15:05] were from the inner inner cities that I could, like, go buy drugs from later on in life [00:15:10] that I stayed connected with, like, you know, big drug dealers and, you know, kind of made [00:15:15] me less scared to, like, get involved with that kind of people. Um, because I knew them, him. I lived with him for, [00:15:20] you know, months. Yeah. I mean, look, I, I’m somebody that believes in structure [00:15:25] and routine and all of that, like, even now, like the the rehab facility that I work with in Los Angeles, [00:15:30] it’s it’s for young adults that are like failure to launch type people. And, [00:15:35] uh, it’s high structure, high accountability, mandatory 12 steps, a [00:15:40] sponsorship, um, like a very strict schedule. And they help people [00:15:45] reintegrate into society, education, getting a job, all of that and teach them how to do that. So I [00:15:50] believe in structure and routine, and it is beneficial for people to look.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of [00:15:55] the conversations that I’ve had with people around addiction are to say that addiction is, [00:16:00] is not necessarily based on the thing you’re addicted to. It’s [00:16:05] the thing in your head that makes you an addict and so on. And and people say you can be addicted [00:16:10] to anything you were saying before. We were talking about food or gambling or.

Rhona Eskander: Playstation.

Payman Langroudi: Or whatever, [00:16:15] whatever it is or your phone. But the question I’ve got for you is, with all of your experience of [00:16:20] having used all of these different things and having seen other people use these different things, [00:16:25] are some of these drugs different when it comes to addiction, or [00:16:30] is it basically the same thing?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, I mean, especially when it [00:16:35] comes to the physical side of it. Uh, there are drugs that are a lot more physically [00:16:40] addicting than other drugs. He was saying.

Payman Langroudi: Spice.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah, spice.

Payman Langroudi: Fentanyl is famous [00:16:45] for that.

Hunter Shepherd: Well, and that was, that became my one of my drugs of choice. Oh, really? Yeah. Um, [00:16:50] because where I’m from is the, uh, the highest overdose rate in America, the most [00:16:55] opioid, opioid addicted place in America. So it’s super easy to fall into that [00:17:00] addiction. And fentanyl is physically one of the most addicting drugs. I [00:17:05] mean, it’s pretty brutal.

Payman Langroudi: It’s just explain. Yeah. Explain what.

Rhona Eskander: Sentinel is. Is it more important because I see the [00:17:10] only the first time I heard of fentanyl was through your page. Yeah. And then my friend, the first time you heard of fentanyl.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Come [00:17:15] on. I’ve actually been teetotal my whole life. I don’t know if you knew that, but as in, I have [00:17:20] never taken. I’ve never been drunk even. And people are like, oh, is it religious? I’m like, no, my parents are Christian. [00:17:25] Like they all drink. And I just was never drawn to it. I think I had an innate [00:17:30] sense of self when I was young, where I just knew I had an addictive personality, and I knew that I [00:17:35] was very prone to anxiety and depression and seeing people self-soothe and self-medicate [00:17:40] with drugs and alcohol actually put me off. That’s what put me off.

Payman Langroudi: Like I said to you, if you [00:17:45] go to some some retreat and some shame and gives you a mushroom tea, you’ll have it. Yeah, but that’s [00:17:50] in the end. In the end, it’s the same thing.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not the same thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not.

Rhona Eskander: The hunter is laughing [00:17:55] at you, by the way. You’re going to get used to this banter. It’s not because, as I said, like I would do a lot of research [00:18:00] and I would never take anything like that. Like, would I do ayahuasca like I probably would later on? [00:18:05] But I know it’s not. But I’m not doing it to get high. I’m not doing it to get the. The thing is, I’m [00:18:10] not doing it to self-soothe. I would be doing it to actually confront my inner demons and see the dark [00:18:15] shadow side of me and do the work on that. And I would go with people that hold the space [00:18:20] that help you integrate. There’s a difference. Right?

Hunter Shepherd: There is there is you and and look, there’s people [00:18:25] that can use any form of drugs or alcohol in that kind of way, actually. [00:18:30] And then there’s people like me.

Rhona Eskander: Not so sure.

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, there’s people that can drink [00:18:35] a beer or a wine and, like, leave it for the next six months, you know what I mean? [00:18:40] I’m not that kind of person. I feel like there’s two different kinds of.

Rhona Eskander: People drinking the alcohol in the first place. Like, for me, I’m [00:18:45] not going to do ayahuasca to go and rave in a nightclub like I would be doing it to for mental health reasons. [00:18:50] I don’t think you drink for mental health reasons like you do, but you do it to numb yourself.

Payman Langroudi: Listen, if you sat [00:18:55] around in a circle and someone put a fire on and then someone gave you some drink and it was alcohol [00:19:00] and you all wailed together, you’d feel the same thing.

Rhona Eskander: But I’m not sure I’m going to put. I’m going to send you [00:19:05] to a retreat.

Hunter Shepherd: It is, it is. There is a big difference. But alcohol [00:19:10] can be used recreationally, you know.

Payman Langroudi: But go talk about fentanyl. Like how bad is the physical [00:19:15] addiction to that.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah I mean it depends. It depends on how [00:19:20] you’re using it. Like if you’re if you’re an IV fentanyl addict, you’re and you’re, [00:19:25] you’re doing it for an extended period of time. If you survive, you know, you’re probably not [00:19:30] unless you’re medicated. Like if you just try to like strike cold turkey like from fentanyl, you’re [00:19:35] not going to sleep for weeks. Like, I mean, you’re you’re going to struggle to sleep for weeks. You’re [00:19:40] going to have diarrhoea, you’re going to be puking. You’re going to have, you know, restless legs [00:19:45] where you’re like, literally kicking your feet. You’re not going to have any appetite at all. Uh, [00:19:50] it’s pretty brutal.

Payman Langroudi: So new experience when when someone’s addicted to fentanyl, you know, [00:19:55] that’s going to be a more difficult drug to get off of than. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Which [00:20:00] is so common. I mean, it’s the most common addiction in America right now. Oh yeah. For sure, [00:20:05] especially during Covid. I mean, it really exploded in America. [00:20:10] I mean, our overdose rates had to skyrocket.

Payman Langroudi: A bunch of heroin is laced [00:20:15] with it, right?

Hunter Shepherd: You’re you’re you’re gonna have a hard time finding heroin in America [00:20:20] now. Really? Yeah. It’s almost all fentanyl because it’s, like, so cheap. [00:20:25] Easier to. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Distribute.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, to even bring it into America. I mean, [00:20:30] it’s so strong that they can bring in small amounts and then make big amounts out of it. And [00:20:35] what they’re doing in America right now, and it’s actually starting to show up here in the UK as well. I’ve been reading [00:20:40] some stuff about fentanyl showing up laced in cocaine and all of that here in the UK. Um, [00:20:45] they’re making fake pain pills that look like [00:20:50] a real pain pill that people would normally, that people could abuse a Percocet and [00:20:55] they’re making them out of fentanyl and they’re not mixed properly. You know, they don’t know what they’re [00:21:00] doing. They’re making them in some garage with like a press that turns it into a pill. And [00:21:05] people are thinking that they’re taking pain pills, but they’re taking fentanyl and it’s killing people.

[TRANSITION]: That’s crazy. [00:21:10]

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What about meth? People watch Breaking Bad. Have you had any experience of that?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, that was my drug [00:21:15] of choice. Was meth and fentanyl together at the same time? Yeah, it was my drug of choice [00:21:20] for three years. Wow. So yeah, at the end, at the end of, uh, at [00:21:25] the end of my addiction, I was a full blown IV fentanyl and meth addict.

[TRANSITION]: So at [00:21:30] this point.

Payman Langroudi: Fentanyl and meth. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Hunter. So was [00:21:35] there a point. So I suppose then could you sustain a job? How were you living? [00:21:40] Were you homeless.

[TRANSITION]: Waiting for the.

Payman Langroudi: Drugs?

Hunter Shepherd: Hustling. Stealing. Selling [00:21:45] drugs. Hustling any way I could. So the first time that I learned [00:21:50] to sell drugs was with the spice. One of my best friends. He’s still my. He’s my business [00:21:55] partner today. Sober as well. At that time, we were business partners, too, but in bad things, [00:22:00] you know. And, uh, his uncle was getting, like, huge shipments of [00:22:05] spice to America and then selling it to all these, like. Yeah. From here. And we were [00:22:10] buying spice for $0.50 a gram, and we were selling it for $20 [00:22:15] a gram. So we were I mean, you know, there was a lot of money from it, but I just used every bit [00:22:20] of spending all.

Payman Langroudi: The money to buy more drugs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Fuelled my addiction.

Rhona Eskander: Where were you living at this point? [00:22:25]

Hunter Shepherd: Uh, at that point, I was living with my mom, actually.

Rhona Eskander: And how was your relationship then?

Hunter Shepherd: She worked [00:22:30] a lot. Um, was.

Rhona Eskander: She aware of what was going on or. You don’t think so?

Hunter Shepherd: I’m not sure that she thought [00:22:35] it was as bad as what it was. You know, she was pretty naive to it. Like I said earlier, she [00:22:40] had maybe drank, like, you know, ten times in her life. Maybe. Mhm. Um, [00:22:45] so she had never seen drugs. She had never seen addiction. She didn’t know what was going [00:22:50] on. Um, I think that it was probably pretty suspicious that I constantly had people like coming and going, [00:22:55] you know, and then actually so during this, [00:23:00] during this period of time, my I met my daughter’s mom, uh, through that [00:23:05] drug, and, uh, she became pregnant. Thank God she.

[TRANSITION]: Left during Covid. No, [00:23:10] no, no.

Hunter Shepherd: No, this was I was like I was like 18, 20, 19. Okay. Yeah. [00:23:15] And, um, yeah, my daughter is almost, almost 11 now. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:20] So she stopped using the drug and then I continued to use it until [00:23:25] one day they made it completely illegal in America and like, shut it down, like completely. So overnight [00:23:30] it was all gone and I was withdrawing and I had no choice but to withdraw from [00:23:35] it. And, uh, like, literally sleeping on the bathroom floor for days because I was so sick, I couldn’t [00:23:40] do anything else. And I decided at that point that I didn’t care about [00:23:45] parole. I didn’t care about failing a drug test. I didn’t care about, like, anything. And I [00:23:50] started to use heroin. At that time, it was still heroin and pain pills, [00:23:55] really, just to get rid of the withdrawals. Like I wasn’t thinking of the consequences. I just, in [00:24:00] that moment had to get rid of the withdrawals, of course. And, uh, went on the run from my parole [00:24:05] officer, and, uh, I share I share this story, you know, [00:24:10] a good bit. And I think it’s relative to how a strong addiction is. Um, when my [00:24:15] daughter was born, I was full blown addicted to to opiates and, [00:24:20] uh, like, literally as she was born, I’m, like, holding her and I. And I start talking and she wasn’t [00:24:25] crying. She, like, looked at me and smiled and it was like the most beautiful moment of my life, [00:24:30] you know, my daughter has just been born. She’s smiling at me. And, um, the addiction [00:24:35] was so strong that I couldn’t go a few hours without using. So I was like, literally in the parking [00:24:40] lot, getting high before we left the hospital because I just couldn’t, I couldn’t I couldn’t go without [00:24:45] it. But for in a normal person’s mind, they’d be thinking that would be enough to, like, change your life. You know, you [00:24:50] wouldn’t want to use, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t go without it, you know?

Rhona Eskander: So on the notion of [00:24:55] addiction, because I think it’s something the person that changed my views on addiction as Gabor Maté, you know, [00:25:00] his work. Yeah. And I talk about him a lot on the podcast. Have you read his books yet? Based on all my recommendations. And [00:25:05] the reason was his book, I think is one of the most powerful books on addiction in the realm [00:25:10] of hungry ghosts. I don’t know if you’ve read it, but he talks about because he was [00:25:15] a very prominent physician in Canada, worked with all the rich people, and then he decided [00:25:20] to go completely like the opposite direction and was working with all of the drug addicts [00:25:25] in a really poor part of Canada. And when he tells these stories about [00:25:30] the addicts, like you say, like, you know, there’ll be someone, a woman that’s addicted to heroin and she’s like, I’m going to give up because now [00:25:35] she’s pregnant and she’s like, this child’s going to change my life and then can’t give up. And then [00:25:40] like society, shame her. And anyways, the whole point is, is that he goes into all of the biological [00:25:45] elements of addiction. And addiction isn’t just about self-soothing. There is just [00:25:50] so much more to it. There’s now. It’s now been shown that, like the brain and the biology of the brain and the [00:25:55] chemicals affects people’s ability to be addicted or [00:26:00] not addicted. And I think that’s when we treat it so incorrectly. Like, I feel like we almost punish addicts [00:26:05] or we look down on them rather than really understanding why they’re addicted. And [00:26:10] I think we can help it. And I know that’s a lot of the work that you do as well, but that’s my understanding. [00:26:15] And I think he was absolutely huge in making those changes and challenges, because there [00:26:20] is a biological element to it, isn’t there?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, it affects [00:26:25] your nervous system, um, you know, to the point where it like, triggers your, like fight [00:26:30] or flight, like in that moment of me, like, you know, being at the hospital, [00:26:35] like you start to panic, like, you know, like the adrenaline part of your body, you start to panic, [00:26:40] like, yeah, like you’re going to die almost, you know, like you can’t be without it. Like you’re like in fear. [00:26:45] And I think that a lot of that is like in fear of the physical withdrawal, too. For [00:26:50] me, I was like terrified of that. And it would actually trigger like that fight or flight in me. And I was like, I need it, I [00:26:55] need it, you know? Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s so much deeper than. Yeah, so much. I just.

[TRANSITION]: Want to [00:27:00] get across.

Payman Langroudi: That all the time with, I guess, family members. And is that sometimes [00:27:05] the first step to say, hey, stop blaming the person?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I [00:27:10] mean, look, dealing with families, uh, because I know something that I do now, dealing with families [00:27:15] is probably the hardest part of actually helping somebody. Uh, and oftentimes, [00:27:20] and I’m not going to blame anybody. Right. But oftentimes the families are the ones the dynamic [00:27:25] of the family is what keeps somebody sick, you know. Yeah. Because there’s always different roles [00:27:30] within a family system. And, you know, there will be people that don’t that don’t want to understand it, [00:27:35] that blame and all of these things. And then there will be an enabler. Right? So like with my [00:27:40] with my family, my dad was the one that was like constantly like trying to discipline and blame [00:27:45] and all of that. And my mom was the one like making excuses for and enabling me, you know? [00:27:50] Um, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s the tricky thing about it as well, because [00:27:55] sometimes, like, the family wants to keep that person in a certain position, you don’t know the dynamics. [00:28:00] Like are they able to being abused by a family member? You know, there’s like I think it’s it’s extremely complex [00:28:05] and leads to why certain people are addicted. And Gabor also [00:28:10] talks about someone super famous. I don’t want to say Kurt Cobain because it wasn’t Kurt Cobain, it was someone else. I cannot remember [00:28:15] who’s really famous. And he said that in that moment I think he was also a heroin addict. [00:28:20] He said that in that moment of not needing to do heroin, it’s not he’s not even thinking about the consequences, [00:28:25] because the desperation to escape from his own reality is so much stronger than [00:28:30] that. And that’s what we fail to recognise.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, if someone we all [00:28:35] have, if you’ve got a family member who’s got a problem, a lot of times you’re [00:28:40] there is blame blames, a massive part of it.

Rhona Eskander: People blame families all the time.

[TRANSITION]: They [00:28:45] blame the.

Payman Langroudi: Person, blame the person. You know, the addict. And I found, you know, if you can, if you [00:28:50] can at least get to the point of saying it’s an illness. Yeah. Whereas, you know, don’t blame someone for being [00:28:55] sick, but you do blame them for having an addiction. Mhm. You know it’s a common.

[TRANSITION]: Thing and. [00:29:00]

Rhona Eskander: Relapsing as well. You know that’s that’s the big thing. And it’s really, it’s really hard to have [00:29:05] that compassion because one of my best friends bless his soul, he [00:29:10] is on and off crystal meth. I’d say that he is only an addict. He’s an addict in a sense, [00:29:15] but not because he does it when he’s really in dark spaces so he can go a really long period of time of [00:29:20] not relapsing And I think it’s really hard because when he’s in that dark space, [00:29:25] he becomes like a really different person. And I can see how many people he pushes away and how many [00:29:30] people he treats. And again, you’d think like people are like, oh, why don’t you just go to rehab or fix [00:29:35] up? Or it’s just so much easier said than done, and you have to keep reminding yourself of that. It’s a really tricky [00:29:40] one. I think it’s a really, really tricky one.

Hunter Shepherd: Crystal meth has super high relapse rates as well. [00:29:45] And sugar is like a higher rate of endorphins in your brain than any other drug. [00:29:50] Um, so it’s like so addicting. And it’s there’s a huge relapse rate with it for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Tell us [00:29:55] about the turning point.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. You want to hear that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yourself. And then also it [00:30:00] must be like, you know a big part of your work now. Yeah. Turning people [00:30:05] I guess accepting that there’s an issue. Tell us about. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Tell us about the turning point. It.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:10] So, uh, and this is kind of a long winded answer. So, so on my 21st [00:30:15] birthday, I did meth for the first time. It really was a drug [00:30:20] that brought me to my knees quickly. Like, uh, you know, I say that spice was like one of the [00:30:25] most addicting drugs I did, and that’s because of the physical element of it. But meth was [00:30:30] a drug that put me in bad situations with bad people. And [00:30:35] it’s such a it’s such a overwhelming and tiring drug [00:30:40] to use. So it very quickly took me to rock bottom, you know, whatever you would [00:30:45] consider rock bottom and.

[TRANSITION]: Sorry, did it take you.

Rhona Eskander: To rock bottom because the highs were so [00:30:50] high and the lows were so low? Or did it take you to rock bottom whilst you were on? I assume not.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. [00:30:55] I mean I think yeah, that that is partially it as well because [00:31:00] like with meth you stay up for days at a time and then you go into [00:31:05] psychosis, you don’t eat, you don’t drink. And it’s just such a powerful drug.

Payman Langroudi: Right. Are you taking [00:31:10] it for days at a time? Oh, yeah. Is that how it works? Yeah, yeah, because it took us through it. Yeah. Let’s say it’s [00:31:15] a Friday. You start. Yeah. And you constantly use.

Hunter Shepherd: It all the way until Thursday. [00:31:20] Probably.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. And then Friday to three Thursday. Are you having the best time of your life or for [00:31:25] the first time?

Hunter Shepherd: For the first like day or two? Yeah. It’s great. You’re just.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. And then.

Hunter Shepherd: And [00:31:30] then.

Payman Langroudi: It’s. And then you feel terrible until.

Hunter Shepherd: Suffering, just suffering. But you continue to use it because you’re addicted [00:31:35] to it. What it is, is with meth. It lasts a long time, but [00:31:40] the most enjoyable part of it is probably like the first hour. So, you know, [00:31:45] you might use it, feel good for an hour and then the next like seven hours is just awful. [00:31:50]

Payman Langroudi: And so chasing that. Yeah. First that.

Hunter Shepherd: First hour. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Oh and [00:31:55] then what happens. You haven’t slept at all in that week.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Literally unless I used [00:32:00] fentanyl. And I nod off for maybe 20 minutes and wake up.

Payman Langroudi: Are you hungry?

[TRANSITION]: No. You haven’t [00:32:05] eaten anything of him.

Rhona Eskander: He’s looked.

[TRANSITION]: So.

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, yeah. Literally. You won’t eat for days, literally. [00:32:10] And, um, and you get really dehydrated as well. So, [00:32:15] um. Yeah, that’s that’s a bad part of it too. Like, okay.

Payman Langroudi: So now on Thursday, you’re just in such [00:32:20] a state, you’re gonna have to stop. Yeah, yeah. And then go on. What happens? Do you get to sleep? [00:32:25]

Hunter Shepherd: I would normally so what I would I would do is I would use I would use it for days. [00:32:30] Not off every once in a while using fentanyl. And then by the time I’m like six [00:32:35] days in, I’m in psychosis and, like, really hallucinating and paranoid and probably [00:32:40] locked in like some hotel room by myself, like peaking out of people for like seven [00:32:45] hours.

Payman Langroudi: So after you or whatever.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, yeah. And in reality, you know, [00:32:50] I’m just some addict. The cops wouldn’t be looking for me. Yeah, it’s not like I’m doing anything like crazy, you know? [00:32:55] Yeah. And, um. Yeah. So then I would just use a bunch of, like, fentanyl [00:33:00] or heroin and fall asleep and then be asleep for ten hours and wake up and do it again. [00:33:05] Wow. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: So that’s crazy.

Rhona Eskander: So, so so you were saying that that [00:33:10] was the drug that brought you onto your knees, and then what happened?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So I, [00:33:15] you know, like I said, I just was involved with bad people. A lot of, like, traumatic [00:33:20] stuff happened. I mean, just awful stuff, right? And, uh, I realised in that [00:33:25] moment that I needed help. And thank God I have the mom that I do. [00:33:30] And, uh, she’s been an MRI tech for like, 35 years. So she worked at the [00:33:35] same hospital for like 30 years. She had health insurance. And our health insurance system [00:33:40] in America is a lot. It’s. Well, if you have health insurance, it’s it’s one of the best systems in the world, [00:33:45] you know, but.

Rhona Eskander: You can’t afford it. You die.

[TRANSITION]: Well, so it’s really [00:33:50] I.

Hunter Shepherd: Mean, it depends. It depends. Right. So it depends on what state you live in. So actually Ohio [00:33:55] and West Virginia both have really good Medicaid. So, um.

Rhona Eskander: Is [00:34:00] that like Obamacare in a way.

Hunter Shepherd: So Obamacare, what Obamacare is, is it made [00:34:05] private health care more affordable to the average person. So Medicaid [00:34:10] is actually for people that can’t afford health care at all. Okay. And when it comes to [00:34:15] addiction treatment, mental health is where it’s really lacking with Medicaid or free health care [00:34:20] in America. But when it comes to addiction treatment, there’s so much funding. And [00:34:25] a majority of the states like Ohio and West Virginia, they’re the two most affected states [00:34:30] for drugs. So they have a lot of extra funding to help people. So I [00:34:35] could have got help there regardless. But I was, I was blessed. I had a mom that [00:34:40] that had a good job in a hospital, so I had health insurance that covered me going into treatment. [00:34:45] So between 21 and 23 I went [00:34:50] to treatment six different times. Mhm. And rehab. Yeah. Rehab six different times. [00:34:55] And we have a majorly flawed system with rehabs [00:35:00] in America. There’s a lot of places that don’t have good intentions. They just want to bill [00:35:05] your insurance. They want to lie to you and tell you that they provide X, Y, and Z when they [00:35:10] don’t. Um, a lot of them are committing insurance fraud. They’re doing a lot of really bad things. Right. [00:35:15] So I, I kept going to programs that and I’m not going to blame [00:35:20] it completely on them. You know, it was it was me as well. The you know me relapsing. It was it [00:35:25] was my fault as well. But I kept going to places that were not structured, didn’t have any [00:35:30] routine. They just looked nice. They were in these beautiful locations.

Hunter Shepherd: You know, you got all this like [00:35:35] extra stuff included with the massages and acupuncture and all that stuff. Right? But they [00:35:40] they didn’t actually help people get sober, you know, they weren’t geared toward good [00:35:45] clinical care and treating people appropriately. So I would go to these places, get sober [00:35:50] for like a month to 90 days, and then I would go home and I did. Nothing changed. [00:35:55] I was just sober, uh, and I would relapse very quickly. And this happened over [00:36:00] and over again. It got worse every single time I’d relapsed. And, uh, the [00:36:05] last time before I got sober now I was able to put together five months of sobriety. [00:36:10] It was the longest I had ever had, like ever as an adult, aside from, you know, going [00:36:15] to jail or whatever. And, um, I moved back to to [00:36:20] what? I was in California. I went to treatment in California, I moved back to Ohio, and I relapsed [00:36:25] because I was living at home with my parents. I lost my job. [00:36:30] Uh, my girlfriend broke up with me all in a week, and I didn’t have a solution. I didn’t know what to do. You know, life [00:36:35] is going to show up. Like when you’re in recovery. Um, and somebody showed up and [00:36:40] they said, hey, look, I’ve got some drugs do you want to use with me? And in that moment, it was my solution. [00:36:45] Three weeks later, I had lost £45, which is like three stone. [00:36:50] Wow. Um, I had picked my whole entire body. I had scabs all over my whole body. [00:36:55] Like those videos I saw those.

Payman Langroudi: I saw those pictures.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I was like, delusional. I [00:37:00] was out of my mind. I slept maybe three days in three weeks, and, um, I was [00:37:05] super dehydrated. And it was it was bad. It was the least that I’d ever weighed in my in my whole [00:37:10] life. I was like £165, and I was hanging [00:37:15] out with a girl that I had that I had stolen $200 worth of drugs from three [00:37:20] years before. I like messenger and was like, hey, can you give me a ride and I’ll give you drugs or whatever? [00:37:25] And she intentionally poisoned the drugs that I was using, trying to, like, hurt [00:37:30] me, uh, with a drug called flakka. And, uh, and I did it. I was an IV addict [00:37:35] at this point. Uh, I injected it, and I blacked out for three days. I didn’t know who I [00:37:40] was. I didn’t know where I was. I was just, like, lost, gone.

Rhona Eskander: And and [00:37:45] what happened to her? Did you had did you find out that that’s what she did?

Hunter Shepherd: Well, what what happened [00:37:50] was I had like it’s kind of graphic, but I had a bag of meth setting out [00:37:55] and I was knotted out on fentanyl and flakka, which is [00:38:00] like bath salts. I’m not sure if you ever heard of that or it’s like similar to spice, but much, much stronger. [00:38:05] Uh, it looks just like meth. So she put it into the meth that I was doing, and, [00:38:10] I literally sucked it into the needle. And I put the needle in my arm, and I [00:38:15] remember her saying, I fucking hate you. I fucking hate you. I did it and blacked out.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Wow. And, [00:38:20] uh, my daughter’s mom, who I, who I’ve been using with, showed up to the hotel [00:38:25] room that we were in, and as soon as she showed up, they left her. And this guy that was there, [00:38:30] just straight left, and, um, you know, they were just going to leave me like [00:38:35] that to, you know, maybe potentially die or whatever was going to happen to me. But [00:38:40] yeah, I mean, the it was pretty obvious what happened. You know, I’ve been using the same drugs from the same people [00:38:45] for a period of time, people I’ve known for years. First time she shows up [00:38:50] and then I do the drugs, and then that’s what happens. You know what happened next?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So it’s like. [00:38:55]

Rhona Eskander: Watching a, like a riveting film where like, tell us more.

Hunter Shepherd: So my daughter’s [00:39:00] mom called my parents and said, you know, he’s not okay. Like, you need to come now and take him [00:39:05] to the hospital. So it’s like the middle of the night. They show up, take me to the hospital. And that’s like the videos [00:39:10] that you see that you see of me on my social media. My parents were recording me in the hospital [00:39:15] because they knew I wouldn’t remember and I wouldn’t believe how high I was.

Rhona Eskander: So at this point, did your [00:39:20] parents know how bad the problem was?

Hunter Shepherd: Well, I mean, yeah, I was like, [00:39:25] you know, I was two years into going to different rehabs and trying to get [00:39:30] sober, and it got worse every single time. And they knew that I was on a relapse and they [00:39:35] were trying to get me, like, sober long enough to, like, be able to go back into [00:39:40] a rehab. But this was like the worst thing that had ever happened to me at that point. [00:39:45] Yeah. It was you haven’t.

Payman Langroudi: Got kids, man. But thinking that your kid. The helplessness [00:39:50] and the worry that that must be if your kid is going through that. Mhm. But [00:39:55] go ahead. Sorry.

Hunter Shepherd: No, no it’s all right. Um yeah. So I the psychosis [00:40:00] was so strong that, that and they took me home. The hospital was trying to put [00:40:05] me into like a mental health ward and my parents were like, he’s not, you know, he needs to go to a treatment [00:40:10] facility. So they took me home while I was, like, hallucinating and then psychosis, [00:40:15] and it was so strong that I would go to sleep and wake up [00:40:20] still in psychosis. And for three days I slept in between my parents because [00:40:25] it was the only place I felt safe. I didn’t even know who they were. I didn’t know who I was, I didn’t know my [00:40:30] name. I couldn’t put together a sentence like.

Payman Langroudi: Potentially they’re thinking he may never come out [00:40:35] of this, right?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I mean, I feel like they knew that I was like, just like, [00:40:40] super high, you know, um, when it goes.

Payman Langroudi: On for days and days and days.

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, [00:40:45] I’m sure they were in fear of it for sure, you know? But what happened was they kind of [00:40:50] came to the conclusion that the places that I were going, that I was going to were just like [00:40:55] luxury places, and they weren’t actually helping me. So they contacted the [00:41:00] insurance company and they said, hey, listen, our son is relapsed this many [00:41:05] times. Like we need somewhere that you recommend. And they recommended [00:41:10] a place in Palm Springs, California, uh, that was uh, structured, had [00:41:15] routine, mandatory 12 step meetings, mandatory sponsorship, somewhere [00:41:20] I could live for like an extended period of time. And when I came out of it [00:41:25] because I’d been, you know, out of my mind for three days, I couldn’t get high. [00:41:30] So I was withdrawing. I mean, I was like, like full blown withdrawals at this point. [00:41:35] And, uh, withdrawals.

Payman Langroudi: Are what, vomiting?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, vomiting. Just aches. Body [00:41:40] aches shaking. Just awful. Awful restless legs. Like literally like.

Rhona Eskander: But can’t [00:41:45] they give you something to counteract that they do with heroin, right. Like when you’re coming off, they give you something to.

Hunter Shepherd: Suboxone [00:41:50] or Subutex. The problem is, if you take [00:41:55] one of those drugs too soon, it puts you into something called precipitated withdrawals. [00:42:00] And because what Suboxone does is it’s, uh, so opioids [00:42:05] set on your opiate receptors in your brain. And then, uh, if you [00:42:10] take it too early, Suboxone comes in and washes it off of your, your receptors [00:42:15] and it puts you into, like, full blown withdrawal. It pushes all of the drugs out of your system. [00:42:20] And that’s a really, really painful experience. Like I mean that’s like brutal, brutal, [00:42:25] way worse than regular regular withdrawals. Um, like you’ll you’ll [00:42:30] literally think you’re dying. Uh, so normally I would only recommend [00:42:35] using that drug if you’re in a controlled setting, like in a detox facility. [00:42:40] Right. Which is where I was headed. And, uh, they. I made [00:42:45] my parents drive me to to the hood to get drugs, because the flight from Ohio [00:42:50] to California is like a five hour flight. And I had a layover, so it was like [00:42:55] a seven hour trip, and I knew I wasn’t going to make it unless I did something. So I’m like literally [00:43:00] using drugs in my parents backseat on the way to the airport for two hours. [00:43:05] And, uh, I remember my dad. Uh, really? This is like a major [00:43:10] turning point for me. My dad turned around and looked at me and he said, do you want to [00:43:15] be buried or do you want to be cremated? Because if you don’t stop, that’s the only choice you have left. Wow. Um, [00:43:20] and that, like, really hit me hard because I knew in that moment that I was literally dying. [00:43:25] And if I wasn’t going to die right then, I was going to suffer until I did. Uh, [00:43:30] and it really hit me. Um, and I realised [00:43:35] that I needed to take it seriously.

Payman Langroudi: But on that occasion, when you were on the way to that rehab, was [00:43:40] your brain different? I mean, the previous six times were you thinking, hey, I [00:43:45] don’t know, I might reuse and this time you knew you wouldn’t or something.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, I mean, I was terrified [00:43:50] because of being poisoned. Yeah. Yeah, um, I was, yeah, I was terrified, [00:43:55] but also I was, like, beaten to a point of willingness. I knew [00:44:00] that everything that I had done before wasn’t working. You know, every time I went into [00:44:05] treatment before I had, I was I was willing to at least try. Yeah. Um, but at [00:44:10] this moment I was like, okay, you know, I’m willing to do, like, literally anything to stay [00:44:15] sober. How old were you? I was 23.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: Crazy how she kind of did you a favour, [00:44:20] huh?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Yeah. She did. She did. And people always ask me, like, you know, did [00:44:25] you not try to, like, put her in jail or this and that?

Rhona Eskander: She saved you in a way.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, she did. And, [00:44:30] you know, through my own recovery, I’ve learned to, like, forgive her, you know, for that thing. [00:44:35] And I heard that she’s sober, too. So I hope that, you know, I hope she’s on. Well, [00:44:40] just kind of how I feel.

Payman Langroudi: What happens in rehab?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So.

Rhona Eskander: So you made it to rehab? At this point, [00:44:45] I did. Stop jumping the gun. It’s. You’re like you’re watching it.

[TRANSITION]: Like you’re watching.

Rhona Eskander: At times 20. [00:44:50] Go on. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Just got to rehab. What happens to rehab? Yeah I did.

Hunter Shepherd: I barely [00:44:55] made it. I mean, by the time I got there, I was like, on death’s door, you [00:45:00] know? Yeah. For the first, like, week, I don’t even really remember it, [00:45:05] you know, I was on Suboxone, uh, for the first week. Yeah, I was just kind of in a [00:45:10] daze. I think it was partially because of the drugs that she had given me as well. Like I was so [00:45:15] unwell that I could barely even talk, like my voice was a whisper for, like, a solid, like, two weeks. [00:45:20] Well, um. Yeah. And when? Yeah, yeah. So I went [00:45:25] through detox. It took about ten days. Uh, and then I got put into what’s called a sober [00:45:30] living. It’s actually not a very common thing here in the UK. It’s more of a thing in the US. [00:45:35] Um, so I got put into sober living and I started going to outpatient treatment. And for [00:45:40] the next, like 120 days, I stayed in outpatient treatment in sober living. [00:45:45] Uh, I went to two AA meetings a day, in the morning and at [00:45:50] night. I had a sponsor. I worked at 12 steps for the first time. Um, [00:45:55] did you.

Rhona Eskander: Stick to the 12 steps the first.

[TRANSITION]: Time? Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, I still work the 12 steps.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I mean, [00:46:00] I know, but as in, like, you didn’t relapse during the 12 steps, the. So you did it the whole way through. Yeah. I’ve [00:46:05] been I’ve gone with some of my friends to different types actually to AA na [00:46:10] and another one and And then my one of my other friends actually was doing slaa sex [00:46:15] and love addiction. Yeah. So I had I went with her and [00:46:20] um, understood. And I think it’s, I think it’s pretty powerful also because it’s also massively recognised [00:46:25] by psychotherapists and psychiatrists as being extremely powerful. And I think that speaks volumes. [00:46:30] It’s something that’s been tried and tested for years. Um, but yeah. Go ahead. So then you were there. [00:46:35] Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Um, yeah. So also something special happened during [00:46:40] that period of time. I was like literally two weeks sober and started to write about [00:46:45] my recovery and, uh, my life and my struggles with addiction. [00:46:50] And, uh, I started to make it’s actually kind of what got me my first, [00:46:55] like, beginning of a following I would make. I would take, you know, the pictures of me when I [00:47:00] was like, all messed up and I would make memes out of them, like making fun of addiction. And [00:47:05] then I would share them and they would just like, go viral because, I mean, they were pretty bad. They were pretty raunchy.

Rhona Eskander: But [00:47:10] you never set out to gain this huge following. Or did you just thought, oh, I’ll just post. And then it just suddenly [00:47:15] came.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. It was like partially like kind of a way to hold myself accountable as [00:47:20] well. Uh, and to give me something to do for the first time, I like, realised [00:47:25] like, oh, I can’t try to, like, go get, get a job. Uh, I can’t, like, jump straight [00:47:30] into a relationship, you know? And it gave me something to focus on in my, like, free [00:47:35] time. Um, so. Yeah. No, it just kind of. It wasn’t planned. It wasn’t intentional. Uh, this is [00:47:40] way before, like TikTok and reels and all of that. It was just like written posts and [00:47:45] like meme.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, people’s attention span was a lot longer [00:47:50] back then. Yeah, yeah, it was good. Uh, and then I would also make like [00:47:55] relationship memes because I never had like a real relationship. [00:48:00] I’d never been with anybody for a period of time. And I would kind of like make fun of that. [00:48:05] And people just related to it and it would just like go viral. And that’s how it started.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:48:10] were you still maintaining a relationship with your daughter during this time? Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: My parents would actually [00:48:15] like bring her to see me. But then they realised that they needed to get away from Ohio [00:48:20] and West Virginia. So I think I was like maybe six months, [00:48:25] seven months sober. And they decided to move to Arizona to get away from the area [00:48:30] and to support me as well. Uh, so I was able to like, live with them in early, [00:48:35] early recovery and like, build that relationship back with my daughter. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What do you think is the reason [00:48:40] that Ohio and West Virginia has this drug problem?

[TRANSITION]: Um, so is it.

Rhona Eskander: Higher [00:48:45] than anywhere else? Oh, yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. So it starts.

Hunter Shepherd: So the [00:48:50] reason that it happened was because, um, there’s a lot of, like, [00:48:55] blue collar workers there. A lot of people get injured. And also those people have [00:49:00] good health insurance as well.

Payman Langroudi: And they go on paying medication first.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, there [00:49:05] were dirty doctors that were overprescribing pain medications there, specifically [00:49:10] OxyContin. You know, they were being incentivised to sell OxyContin. And then there were pharmacies [00:49:15] that were filling prescriptions without using the insurance. So you could [00:49:20] just go pay them cash and then get your prescriptions. So you could use your insurance to get one [00:49:25] and then get another one and get like double prescriptions and stuff. And that’s really [00:49:30] where it started. But then what happened was it was on the news that the [00:49:35] federal government came in and shut down all these doctors, and they came in [00:49:40] and the drug dealers came in and started to sell heroin to all these people that were withdrawing [00:49:45] from the Oxys. And then what happened was Mexico was [00:49:50] like the cartels were like, oh, well, you could put fentanyl in that and make it a lot [00:49:55] stronger and a lot cheaper and sell more of it so that then that’s how fentanyl came in. And then they [00:50:00] started to introduce like carfentanyl, which is like an elephant Tranquilliser [00:50:05] it’s like a much stronger form of fentanyl that they use as an elephant. Tranquilliser. And, [00:50:10] uh, and then that just kind of like just killed whole generations of people in [00:50:15] West Virginia.

Payman Langroudi: The sort of big pharma kind of angle [00:50:20] on this. Yeah. And also, you know, the prison industrial complex. Yeah. I [00:50:25] mean, have you got views on that? Do you, do you think there’s a conspiracy to make a bunch of drug addicts, or [00:50:30] do you think this is just the the way it’s turned out, because those money’s such a big part of those two things. [00:50:35]

Hunter Shepherd: I mean, not every state has privatised prisons, but [00:50:40] if you look at the states that do, I mean, there’s definitely like a much bigger, you know, relationship. [00:50:45] Yeah. Yeah for sure. I mean, yeah, the private prison system in America [00:50:50] is pretty bad.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a crazy idea. Do you know about this?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Rhona Eskander: Tell me. I’m like, what’s going on?

[TRANSITION]: Prison is a.

Payman Langroudi: Business. [00:50:55] So, like, some some company will say to the government, we’ll build this massive [00:51:00] prison for you as long as you can guarantee us 80% occupancy rate. And then the cops [00:51:05] go out and try and find people to put in prison. And the easiest way to do that is find drug addicts.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s and [00:51:10] again that’s a huge, huge problem. Societal problem. I went to a retreat, [00:51:15] not a psychedelic retreat. Another one in Costa Rica.

[TRANSITION]: It’s good to retreat.

Rhona Eskander: I’m [00:51:20] all about the self-help. I went to this, uh, retreat in Costa Rica, and there was [00:51:25] a guy there that was doing a lot of work. He owned the retreat, and one of the big things for him is [00:51:30] he used to be a police officer in Amsterdam, and he has an immense amount of guilt [00:51:35] with arresting people. And he’s kind of like repenting his sins because now [00:51:40] he works with he’s of like South American indigenous origin. [00:51:45] But now what he does is he goes out to the prisons in wherever in South America. And [00:51:50] what he recognises is how flawed the system was. And he’s like, you know, like he has such guilt about [00:51:55] essentially what he feels like ruining people’s lives because you arrest someone, the job [00:52:00] opportunities are gone. What’s the percentage? Isn’t it like 80% are more likely to commit [00:52:05] the same crime even after they come out of prison? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Plus, I’m.

[TRANSITION]: Just saying.

Payman Langroudi: You meet people in prison who [00:52:10] enable you.

[TRANSITION]: Later.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly. So, like, the system is flawed as well. And I think that goes [00:52:15] back to the thing of like, how do we help and treat these people? Because people that have [00:52:20] committed a crime have committed it for reasons, you know, like, I.

Hunter Shepherd: Mean, it’s it’s interesting because I feel like [00:52:25] the Netherlands is actually probably one of the least strict on on addicts [00:52:30] and prisons and all of that. I mean, you know, even even with like, their health [00:52:35] care system, they’re the Netherlands is one of the only places in the world that will [00:52:40] fund somebody going to treatment. Like, even if you’re like, you don’t have anything, you’re [00:52:45] homeless addict, all of that. You’re required to have like a private form of health care. And then in [00:52:50] the Netherlands, uh, so they’ll fund that health care for you and it will actually cover you going [00:52:55] to a different country for treatment.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know what he was arresting them for, but [00:53:00] I think the guilt was more about the arrest itself and ruining people’s lives, as it were. [00:53:05] From what you’re saying, absolutely. I mean, I’ve talked before about Lisbon as well. [00:53:10] You know, Lisbon used to have one of the highest problems with heroin. And again, they used to arrest them, chuck [00:53:15] them in jail. So then what they started doing was, is that they opened up these centres and they’re like, cool. You want to get the heroin? [00:53:20] Come here. Because they knew at least where it was coming from, and then they’d offer them help at the same time. [00:53:25] And if they wanted to have the help, they could if they were there for the heroin, at least it was like clean [00:53:30] or whatever. And the needles and actually they ended up battling, combating like a lot of the [00:53:35] heroin problems because of that.

Hunter Shepherd: And they’re starting to do that in a lot of places in Canada [00:53:40] and the US, because at least if they’re like using these drugs [00:53:45] that are regulated by the government, like you said, they know where it’s coming from and it’s actually saving people [00:53:50] from overdosing on fentanyl. Yeah. You know, and it stops like the spread of disease and all of that. [00:53:55] If you’re if they’re giving you clean, you know, clean needles, you’re not sharing needles with other people and getting HIV [00:54:00] or hep C or whatever.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: No.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. Now you [00:54:05] got better. You’re sober. Yep.

[TRANSITION]: Episode four. Yeah. Was it was.

Payman Langroudi: It this question of [00:54:10] why now get into the workplace. Mhm.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. I think um I [00:54:15] didn’t really even try to get a job until I was about a year sober. And [00:54:20] by that time I had, you know, probably 30 or 40,000 followers [00:54:25] on social media just from like organic, like posting. Everything I’ve done [00:54:30] is organic and built from like the very bottom, just like learning how to go viral and capturing [00:54:35] trends and all of that. And, um, I what happened was I got jobs [00:54:40] working in marketing and business development and admissions for treatment facilities. [00:54:45] So I, you know, people.

Rhona Eskander: Want a degree. How were you getting those jobs because.

Payman Langroudi: Of his growth.

[TRANSITION]: Right?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah, [00:54:50] because because I was getting traction on social media and they saw that I had a marketing mind, you [00:54:55] know, and, uh, yeah, thankfully I got noticed by people that were willing to [00:55:00] train me.

Rhona Eskander: Talk about the dentistry for the dentist. Yeah, I ended up in dentistry. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: That actually [00:55:05] like it’s funny how that happens. So I started to do [00:55:10] marketing and business development for the same facility that I work at today. And the [00:55:15] owner, he’s he’s literally one of my best friends. And, uh, he owns a marketing agency as well. [00:55:20] And, you know, they knew that I was good at essentially going viral and, uh, these, these, uh, dentists [00:55:25] were hiring us for me to help them with, like, content creation and stuff and, and to help them [00:55:30] get their name out there and educate people and all of that. So were you.

Rhona Eskander: Interested?

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, I love it. Yeah, [00:55:35] it’s super interesting. Especially airway and sleep. I mean, it’s [00:55:40] crucial to your health as, as as a whole, you know? Yeah, actually, a lot of the stuff [00:55:45] I learned really freaked me out. You know, it made me paranoid about my own airway and sleep and all [00:55:50] of that, you know?

Rhona Eskander: It’s becoming more and more popular, people talking about that. And actually, [00:55:55] I’m sure you know as well they’re linking a lot of airway problems to ADHD and [00:56:00] children unable to sleep. And then the hyperactivity that’s like related to that. And I’ve had [00:56:05] some really credible, well known dentists tell me that they were a bit [00:56:10] unsure or tried the devices, you know, that opened up the airways on their own kids and said they [00:56:15] notice a huge difference in their behaviour, which I think is really interesting. So I think it’s a very interesting [00:56:20] space. It is so from dentistry to, you know, even bigger [00:56:25] content creation. Let’s talk about, you know, where you work now, the centre, how that all came [00:56:30] about.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: So I actually so I do a couple different things. I have a, I [00:56:35] own a business that’s uh, it’s called a case management company. So like [00:56:40] a family, let’s say a family has a son or a daughter or, you know, husband, wife, whoever [00:56:45] that is addicted. And they’ve tried everything. They can’t convince them to go to treatment, [00:56:50] like, you know, just living in absolute chaos. They’ll hire me and my team to come [00:56:55] in, and we have somebody that’s a case manager that will essentially assess what [00:57:00] that person needs and what the family needs, and then we’ll manage their their case [00:57:05] all the way from start to finish. And what that looks like is I’m an interventionist. [00:57:10] So, um, I’ll fly to wherever and uh, essentially [00:57:15] or somebody that we partner with that we work with will do the intervention and we’ll [00:57:20] convince that individual to go to treatment and then we’ll safely transport them to treatment. [00:57:25] And then our case manager will kind of, you know, manage them while they’re in treatment [00:57:30] and plug into the treatment program, but then also help the family get the resources that they need. [00:57:35] And then sometimes, depending on the situation, we will have somebody [00:57:40] called a companion live with that individual for like a month to three months and help them [00:57:45] kind of reintegrate back into their life and their family and make sure that they stay sober [00:57:50] and they’re achieving all the things that they need. And it’s actually a highly successful system. [00:57:55] And it’s it’s been used for a long time as well. Um, you know, there’s tons of companies that provide [00:58:00] similar services and, uh, yeah, it’s great. I love that aspect of what I do. [00:58:05] I’ve been able to travel to like ten different countries in the last like year and help families [00:58:10] from all over the world. Um, and.

Payman Langroudi: So you look at the one [00:58:15] addict’s needs very different to a different addict’s.

Rhona Eskander: Different ages, I suppose. Right. [00:58:20]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: I think every single family system and dynamic in every [00:58:25] individual is different. I mean, does that does.

Payman Langroudi: That mean that you kind of bespoke what you do for [00:58:30] them? For instance, are they rehab facilities that suit one person more than another?

Hunter Shepherd: Oh, 100%. [00:58:35] That’s the most crucial part of it. Yeah, yeah. Um, because like, let’s say, you [00:58:40] know, an individual has an eating disorder or they have, you know, a certain, [00:58:45] uh, mental health condition on top of their addiction, you have to be able, especially with the eating [00:58:50] disorders. That’s a very touchy thing to.

[TRANSITION]: Try to bulimia that stuff.

Hunter Shepherd: All of [00:58:55] it. Yeah. It’s honestly, eating disorders are just as bad, if not worse than substance [00:59:00] addiction. And they’re much harder to treat because you have to think you don’t have to have drugs [00:59:05] to.

[TRANSITION]: Starve.

Hunter Shepherd: Yourself. Yeah, exactly. So. And you can die from [00:59:10] any eating disorder as well. I mean, it’s a pretty bad thing. So yeah, you have to be able to [00:59:15] look at the, the whole, the whole, you know, case situation. Yeah. To determine [00:59:20] what facility would be the right facility. There’s there’s places that are dual diagnosis. There are places [00:59:25] that are specific to mental health, that are specific to only addiction, and they don’t really [00:59:30] treat mental health disorders. Um, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: If if insurance wasn’t [00:59:35] paying for it, what does it cost to get someone treated. Yeah. So on [00:59:40] top of, you know, whatever you guys are charging the.

Hunter Shepherd: The it depends. It depends. [00:59:45] So a lot of I find that a lot of people here in the UK because bare minimum [00:59:50] any treatment program I would private program I would recommend in the UK bare minimum cost [00:59:55] £15,000 and that’s like bare minimum. So a lot of people actually [01:00:00] leave the UK. A place that I prefer to refer people is actually South [01:00:05] Africa. Um, it’s a place that that people travel to often from, from the UK [01:00:10] anyway. So it’s not unfamiliar. It’s, uh, their money is worth a lot less [01:00:15] than than British pounds. So you’re able to access, like, the highest level of [01:00:20] health care for, like, a third of the cost or less than what it is here. So, [01:00:25] you know, we can take a look at essentially what some of these financial situation is.

Payman Langroudi: And can it run [01:00:30] to hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Hunter Shepherd: Uh, no. No, I mean, it could it depends [01:00:35] on the family and the situation or it could be as low as, you know, £5,000. [01:00:40] So but I do find a lot of the people that we deal with [01:00:45] are people that are of a higher net worth, and actually they’re the hardest [01:00:50] people to get sober because they have, you know, unlimited amount of money to just continue [01:00:55] to hit rock bottom as hard.

[TRANSITION]: Exactly, exactly.

Rhona Eskander: There’s a really famous, [01:01:00] um, rehab slash kind of, I don’t know, it’s not really [01:01:05] a retreat, but, like, place in Switzerland. Yeah. And they literally charge you, like, £10,000 for, [01:01:10] like, five minutes. Like it’s a joke. Like you go for the week, you pay like 100 K or more.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: It’s, [01:01:15] um, I don’t want to say the name. I’ve actually visited some of the places over there, but, [01:01:20] uh. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You know, the one I’m talking about.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. It’s like £350,000 for a month. [01:01:25]

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And basically. But the thing is, is that the repeat clients are a joke. As in, like, are [01:01:30] people getting better because they come back and come back and come back.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It goes back to what [01:01:35] you were saying, that there’s there’s the incentive. The financial incentive is, is sometimes in [01:01:40] the wrong place. Right. Yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So the one thing I can say about Switzerland [01:01:45] and the treatment as a whole there is that the people that go there [01:01:50] are going there because they value privacy. And, um, you know, [01:01:55] you can’t paparazzi is illegal there, and it doesn’t exist.

[TRANSITION]: At that.

Rhona Eskander: Clinic used to.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. [01:02:00] And, uh, the only one that I like, there is one that actually implements group therapy, [01:02:05] uh, whereas the one that you’re speaking of is more of an individual focus. And [01:02:10] to me, you have to have the group therapy element and have a community because recovery [01:02:15] is about community in my opinion. You know, I agree. And you know, at the end [01:02:20] of my addiction, I was isolated. Nobody wanted to be around me, I was isolated, I didn’t have community. [01:02:25] Uh, and I needed that to, to get well.

Rhona Eskander: I think a community is so [01:02:30] underrated. So as Payman said, like, I’m a wellness slash, like healing, like junkie. [01:02:35] And I’ve been doing my own stuff for, like, a really long time, dealing with my own [01:02:40] mind and everything. And I had I had like one of the most transformative experiences of my life on [01:02:45] Saturday. I know I haven’t told you about it cause I haven’t seen you. And it was. I have a coach and he’s [01:02:50] brilliant. Um, and he works a lot with breathwork. And I’ve done like, I’ve known, like, quite like a [01:02:55] few breathwork coaches. But we did a one on one experience and I had, [01:03:00] you know, when you see the photos of like the eye, the third eye that people talk about, I had that experience [01:03:05] essentially. I’d never had that in my entire life. And he was like, that was your alignment. And I was like, crying my eyes out. [01:03:10] I wasn’t even emotional that day, but it had accessed like a different part of my brain. And I’ve.

[TRANSITION]: Had experiences. [01:03:15]

Hunter Shepherd: Like that with breathwork.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s.

Rhona Eskander: Crazy. And he was like, it’s almost like having a hallucinogenic [01:03:20] with breathwork. And the alignment that came as like things popped into my head that I [01:03:25] didn’t necessarily were not necessarily like thinking about. And I was looking for answers for different [01:03:30] things. So it can be extremely transformative. But the point is, is that when I started working with [01:03:35] my coach, I was like, community, community, community, I want community. And after I’d been with like him and the facilitator, [01:03:40] what I realised was, is community makes me feel seen. The right community and making [01:03:45] you feel seen is one of the like most primal, important things [01:03:50] in humanity. That really is the thing that makes you feel safe and loved, just makes somebody feel seen, [01:03:55] is so underrated. And I was like, yeah, I just think it’s it’s do.

Hunter Shepherd: Your do your hands [01:04:00] lock up whenever you do breathwork?

Rhona Eskander: It was actually shaking and I went freezing. My body temperature dropped, [01:04:05] dropped. I’m not talking about like the one that we did here for like three minutes. We had a breathwork coach. This was like on a [01:04:10] different level because it was it was for an hour.

Payman Langroudi: Saying about being seen. So interesting. I was, I was at [01:04:15] Alicante at the weekend where they bring all the top. They basically [01:04:20] to be there. You had to own at least ten Dental practices, and [01:04:25] they had these bunch of guys about 50, 100, 200, and 50, 600, you [01:04:30] know, like giant business people. And we were talking about motivation, right? [01:04:35] What is the motivation to keep going and what what is it? You know why, [01:04:40] why, why go from one to 6 to 200? And the notion that [01:04:45] sometimes to be seen in a particular environment, people will give up everything else [01:04:50] is sort of your, your patients so that, you know, like to to be known [01:04:55] as the world’s most famous brain surgeon. Some guy is losing his family. [01:05:00] Yeah. Losing his life. Because in that one area he’s seen, you [01:05:05] know, or businessman or whatever it is.

Rhona Eskander: Because the thing is, what I’m hearing is, and [01:05:10] I don’t know, maybe Hunter will agree or disagree. I think there’s to be seen for who you are [01:05:15] authentically, and then there’s to be seen for your ego. And it’s like you’ve got to work out which is completing [01:05:20] because there is enough to be seen. Like, sure. Like I my ego [01:05:25] when I know now when I’m like seen by i.e. being validated on social media, that’s that’s [01:05:30] completing my ego. What completes like my soul is when someone sees me [01:05:35] like.

[TRANSITION]: The real.

Payman Langroudi: Seven best friends. Isn’t that enough?

Rhona Eskander: No, but I think it’s different because sometimes [01:05:40] my seven best friends don’t see me. And sometimes people can open up something in you. And [01:05:45] that’s that’s the interesting thing, because I came back from the retreat, I was like, oh [01:05:50] my God, I felt so seen. I felt so loved. I felt like I had this glass bubble around me. No drugs, no [01:05:55] psychedelic, nothing. Just pure like feeling like seen and loved for who I authentically am. [01:06:00] And I came home and, you know, I decompressed and I tried to integrate and [01:06:05] stuff. And then I decided to see a few, like, girlfriends and stuff that evening. I love them, they’re amazing people. [01:06:10] They didn’t do anything wrong. Do I feel they see me in the way that I felt seen that day? It’s completely different. [01:06:15]

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Hunter Shepherd: Where were you at? No, sorry.

Rhona Eskander: No. I’ve heard lots about Nesara. I would [01:06:20] have loved it. This was just. This was actually just in in the UK this weekend. You know, with my brother, this [01:06:25] was just a kind of weekend away. But again, when I go to Costa Rica, when I went to Costa [01:06:30] Rica, I mean, look la for me, people speak the language that I speak, right. Like it’s [01:06:35] true. But yes, I really enjoy people’s ability to communicate [01:06:40] and I feel there’s people that have done the work. What I’m struggling with in dentistry at the [01:06:45] moment is that the corporate setup of running a business doesn’t align [01:06:50] with who I am inside. That’s the real problem, and he knows I have a lot of empathy [01:06:55] and compassion in the way that I speak. But that’s not always well received with people that have never done [01:07:00] work on themselves, they’re like, what the hell is she talking about? Or like, why is she, you know, [01:07:05] so I think, you know, that’s kind of that that’s what I find difficult. But people that have been [01:07:10] in recovery or doing like you have to do such an immense amount of work. And that’s why I have like, mad [01:07:15] respect, because you’re really stripping away every layer to understand why you got [01:07:20] to where you were.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Shepherd: No, a big part of recovery is like humility [01:07:25] as well. Like if you’re living in ego, like it’s a dangerous place to be for somebody [01:07:30] in recovery, you know, or anybody, but especially in recovery. Uh, and you were talking [01:07:35] about, like, social media and feeling validated and all that. It’s it’s funny.

Rhona Eskander: It’s my addiction. It’s [01:07:40] my addiction. Because if I don’t get validated on social media, it’s like this self-fulfilling prophecy. [01:07:45] I’m not good enough.

[TRANSITION]: I mean.

Hunter Shepherd: I love it as well. Uh, I mean, it does feel good, [01:07:50] especially if you’re, like, going viral and getting, you know, engagement and all of that. But [01:07:55] like, in, in the industry that I’m in, I’m well known because of my [01:08:00] social media presence, because not a lot of people have that, like in the treatment industry. But I, I’m [01:08:05] so I try to remain so humble about it. My friends like laugh at me, like we’ll go to conferences and people [01:08:10] are like, I just I’ve seen you somewhere before. And then my friends are like, yeah, we know where, [01:08:15] you know. But I try not to, like, talk about it. And you got to remain humble as well. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: It’s really important. [01:08:20]

[TRANSITION]: For you to do that.

Rhona Eskander: So you said you got a business partner who’s somebody that you’re friends [01:08:25] with. So what does he do in the business?

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. So he he’s actually the the case manager. Yeah. [01:08:30] He’s educated and trained and all of that. He’s more of that type of person [01:08:35] like, you know, has a college education. Straight A’s like super organised. [01:08:40] Whereas I’m like kind of like the go out and like get it done and market.

Rhona Eskander: The BTS [01:08:45] behind the scenes.

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah yeah kind of yeah, yeah. What she you know, he has like a [01:08:50] social media presence as well and he like puts himself out there. But when it comes to our work [01:08:55] he’s like definitely the stuff.

[TRANSITION]: He’s the.

Rhona Eskander: Adhd. We like to be creative. I’m like, I have.

[TRANSITION]: No.

Rhona Eskander: Idea where my accounts [01:09:00] are. You know what I mean? Like.

Payman Langroudi: If you were the king of the world and [01:09:05] you could change a couple of things about the prison system, the [01:09:10] pharmacist, and like what? What what comes to mind when I say that? If you could make [01:09:15] a couple of changes to make the world a better place in this, in this area, I mean.

[TRANSITION]: I [01:09:20] think that.

Hunter Shepherd: You know, I would it would definitely piss a lot of people off, but I would [01:09:25] definitely follow like the, the lead of, you know, places like Portugal where it’s like, [01:09:30] you know, decriminalise. Yeah. Yeah, only with the purpose of [01:09:35] making treatment better and more affordable and easier [01:09:40] to access and making that mandatory in some ways because I, I’m [01:09:45] a firm believer in, you know, actually if treatment were a requirement for [01:09:50] addicts instead of prison, you know, as an alternative of prison, you know, a lot [01:09:55] more people would get get better. Um, so that’s like the first thing I would do is like, [01:10:00] stop funding addicts going to prison and fund them having mandatory [01:10:05] treatment instead. And then also that way, you know, you don’t have to live with [01:10:10] the a record of, you know, criminal record of being an addict for the rest of your [01:10:15] life, you know, and you have the ability to actually get help, you know.

Rhona Eskander: That’s why the guy had.

[TRANSITION]: Guilt. Yeah. For that. Yeah. [01:10:20]

Hunter Shepherd: Yeah. Because, I mean, there are so many people that I know [01:10:25] that have got sober and because of their record, they’re not able to travel [01:10:30] to certain places that they want to. Like, you can’t go to America, you can’t go to Australia, you [01:10:35] know, you can’t go to Canada.

Payman Langroudi: Get a certain job or yeah, it is. Right.

Hunter Shepherd: 100%, I mean, [01:10:40] I think no matter what, though, like, I know tons of, like, people that are felons that are like, [01:10:45] super successful and, you know, hard working and all of that. So I feel like [01:10:50] you shouldn’t let your, your history or criminal record like, define like who you are. [01:10:55] Like you can still find a career and all of that. I mean, maybe the UK is a bit a bit more harsh [01:11:00] on stuff like that, but in America we’re actually.

Rhona Eskander: Your testament, your testament to [01:11:05] everybody that tries to become a victim of their own circumstances and their reality. [01:11:10] Sure, it might be harder, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t do it. It goes for anybody that you know might have come [01:11:15] from a broken home or an abused. Like it’s really hard to come out a better person, [01:11:20] but you can do it and you’re a testament to that. And we hear these stories all the time. You know, I think that’s the key thing, [01:11:25] uh, you know, you have, but you have to be willing to put in the time, the work and be committed to [01:11:30] that. I think that’s absolutely key. So what does the future hold?

Hunter Shepherd: I’m just going [01:11:35] to keep creating content and keep helping people and build my team bigger [01:11:40] and get better at what I do and just continue to try to make a difference, you know? [01:11:45] Yeah, I mean, that’s the most fulfilling thing to me is, you know, when people message me [01:11:50] two years later and they say, you know, I’m still sober, I’m living a good life. And or family members [01:11:55] message me saying, thank you for what you’ve done. And, uh, to me, that’s like, worth more than anything [01:12:00] in the world.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How does someone get in touch with you? Yes.

Hunter Shepherd: Um, I [01:12:05] have a website. Uh, Hunter Michael Shepherd. Com that’s also, like, on all social media [01:12:10] platforms. Hunter Michael Shepherd, you can find me on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. [01:12:15] I post literally everywhere, and I’m actually the one that responds to every single [01:12:20] message as well. Um, I have an assistant that reminds me sometimes, but I’m the one that [01:12:25] responds to every message, sometimes hundreds a month. But I’m going through every single one if I [01:12:30] can, and responding.

Payman Langroudi: To the name of the company or the service.

Hunter Shepherd: Uh, yeah. So it’s called, uh, White Oak [01:12:35] Case Management. And then also I work, uh, the, the facility I [01:12:40] work directly at is called Oak Forest Recovery, and that’s in Thousand Oaks, California. [01:12:45]

[TRANSITION]: Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Hunter. It’s been such an honour. I’m honestly so privileged [01:12:50] that we’ve had our first from like the other Side of the pond guest who’s been incredibly inspirational [01:12:55] and, you know, an incredible storyteller. And so, so, so, so [01:13:00] wonderful. So thank you very much. And I’ve loved it.

Payman Langroudi: Thanks a lot. Yeah. Thank you.