Sonia Szamocki: This sort of buying service, but where where you really are trying to do your best to help them [00:00:05] on a, on a human level and where they are putting an enormous amount of trust [00:00:10] in you just for the fact that you’re wearing a set of scrubs and that you’ve got a steth [00:00:15] around your neck and a and a lanyard. Those are the things that, now that I am somewhere [00:00:20] else, is the reason why people want to come and work in, for example, healthcare Start-Up, that connection [00:00:25] to I’m having an impact every single day, and I can I can see it in that person’s eyes that they’re grateful for what [00:00:30] I’ve done. I’ve given them something to help their pain, or I’ve improved their confidence even from something [00:00:35] that I’ve done aesthetically. Most jobs don’t have that. Yeah, they really don’t know that.

Payman Langroudi: The heartfelt [00:00:40] thank you from a patient, it’s amazing. It doesn’t exist in the world of business.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:50] is mind movers [00:00:55] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:01:00] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:05] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Payman Langroudi: It [00:01:10] gives me great pleasure to welcome Sonya Szumowski onto the podcast again. Sonya was on [00:01:15] the Dental Leaders podcast but I wanted her back on the Mind Movers podcast [00:01:20] to discuss the journey that she’s been on in terms of the stresses, [00:01:25] the juggle. Sonia is the founder of 32 Co, which is a disruptor [00:01:30] in the orthodontic space, and Oxford graduated medic who [00:01:35] went on to Boston Consulting Group and well left medicine, [00:01:40] went on to Boston Consulting Group, where she rediscovered business and entrepreneurship. [00:01:45] So it’s going to be an interesting conversation about how that journey progressed. Lovely to have you. [00:01:50]

Sonia Szamocki: Thanks, Payman. Lovely to be here.

Rhona Eskander: What a boss girl. Hey hey hey. I love [00:01:55] it, I love it. Congratulations and everything you’ve achieved.

Sonia Szamocki: Thank you. It’s. It doesn’t [00:02:00] feel like, um. And I’m sure it never does for either of you either. An achievement. It’s [00:02:05] a journey, and you’re in the middle of a part of it, and you’re looking to the next [00:02:10] bit. Maybe that’s something that, um, we’re not very good at is taking [00:02:15] a moment to stand still and thinking about what have we done so far? So [00:02:20] yeah, be interesting to to get into that.

Payman Langroudi: I alluded to it in the last pod about [00:02:25] you being a glutton for punishment. And since then my, my son’s now applying to Cambridge [00:02:30] and it’s massively stressful. Yeah. Massively stressful. You came out in a rash halfway through [00:02:35] his exams and he got his results and suddenly his face is completely different. You know, his predictions, [00:02:40] extra exams to get into Oxford in the first place from [00:02:45] the Netherlands. You’ve always done hard things. Are you comfortable doing [00:02:50] hard things?

Rhona Eskander: Is that before she goes on to that, I just want to say that it’s so impressive [00:02:55] and so incredible because I remember, like, Oxbridge was the Holy Grail. I mean, I was always told as a kid that I couldn’t achieve anything, let [00:03:00] alone get into dental school. And one of the most incredible things happened [00:03:05] to someone very close to me when I was 11, while I had a nanny, when I was living in the Middle East, [00:03:10] and she stayed with us from when I was born till I was 11. And then she found another immigrant [00:03:15] from Sri Lanka because you know how the community works. And then she started working for my family. And she’s still [00:03:20] with us now to this day. And my parents are 77 and 67. And at the time, [00:03:25] she was trying to bring her son from Sri Lanka to the UK. And my mum helped with that whole process [00:03:30] and he came and he just like he became a cleaner. And then eventually [00:03:35] I think she introduced him to another eligible Sri Lankan woman and they got married. And then quite quickly [00:03:40] they had a son. And then I remember my nanny. She made it her job to make sure [00:03:45] that her son, that her grandson was super successful and she put all this immense amount of pressure for him.

Rhona Eskander: She was like, [00:03:50] if you want their life like pointing it like me and my family, this is what you’d have to do. And [00:03:55] we were like, let him like live. And he eventually got a scholarship to City of London. And then he worked really [00:04:00] hard and unknowingly for all these years because obviously I moved home ages ago. He’d actually [00:04:05] seen me, my sister and my dad, his role models, and he was like, I want to be a doctor. I want [00:04:10] to be like Rhona. I want to be like Alex. Anyway, recently he got accepted into [00:04:15] Cambridge and I found out there’s only six people in the UK that are accepted into the medical [00:04:20] school, into Cambridge, and he’s one of those six. And my heart just is so [00:04:25] warm, you know. And as Payman said, it’s such a rigorous and difficult thing. But that drive [00:04:30] must come from somewhere, right? Because I don’t think I could have. I mean, I got advised that I could [00:04:35] go to Oxbridge for English literature, actually, but I didn’t do it in the end because [00:04:40] I wanted to do dentistry. But where did that come from? You know, to be like, right, I want to do Oxford.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. I can’t [00:04:45] pretend that I had anything like the journey that that young man went through. I think I [00:04:50] had a lot of advantages as a young person. So parents who were academic [00:04:55] were keen that we were academic and did everything that they could to support us. So we grew up in the Netherlands. [00:05:00] I’m Dutch, Polish, Indian by background, so I grew up as kind of an [00:05:05] odd fish in Holland, grew up as a Dutch kid in a Dutch school in a Dutch [00:05:10] environment. My first language was Dutch. I didn’t really my English wasn’t great. Apparently I spoke [00:05:15] with an American accent and. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Broken, broken English. [00:05:20] Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: And, you know, because you sort of. We spoken at home, you know, it from the TV, but I, you know, I wasn’t, I couldn’t [00:05:25] read properly. And at some point my parents said, look, my parents had been to university [00:05:30] in the UK and they said, if you want to have the opportunity to also study in the UK, [00:05:35] we think you should have a British education, which meant that I went to [00:05:40] the British school in the Netherlands when I was about 11. And, [00:05:45] um, you know, up until that point, I don’t think, you know, I always worked hard. [00:05:50] I was encouraged to do my best, but I was always told or made to understand [00:05:55] that, you know, life is mine for the taking. The world didn’t owe me anything, and [00:06:00] that I had been given everything in life to be successful, and that if I [00:06:05] wasn’t getting. Top marks, then really I was going to ask myself, well, why? [00:06:10] Because you’ve had every advantage in life. Loving parents. You know what?

Payman Langroudi: School [00:06:15] is good for you.

Sonia Szamocki: An element of an element of competitiveness. [00:06:20] Definitely. I think I was very competitive as a young kid in everything in school and in sport. [00:06:25] And then I got into this environment where, um, again, I, you know, a [00:06:30] great school. And it was, it was clear that I could achieve anything [00:06:35] and there really weren’t any barriers other than my own ability to [00:06:40] basically get off my backside and do it. So it was less of a it was not fear [00:06:45] based. It wasn’t guilt based. It was just a drive. Um, that came from [00:06:50] an internal degree of competitiveness that I think kept going and and led down [00:06:55] to some unhealthy places as well. I think being just permanently driven, [00:07:00] uh, you know, applying to university was stressful. I was completely [00:07:05] obsessed and knew that I was going to go to Oxford. I don’t know why. I don’t know [00:07:10] where I got the idea from. I’d never been there, but I knew I was going to do it, and I made sure I did. And, [00:07:15] uh, I think when I got there, I think that’s [00:07:20] when I, a few things happened. I, I think I found my, my tribe. I think I found [00:07:25] people that enjoyed the same things as I did that enjoyed school, you know, didn’t think [00:07:30] it was hard work for the sake of hard work. They enjoyed learning and I loved my degree. [00:07:35] I thought it was. I actually thought it was great fun, but I also thought I [00:07:40] don’t have to try and beat these people. It’s actually really unhelpful to try and beat [00:07:45] these people. I’m going to see. I’m just going to focus on myself and see what I can achieve. [00:07:50] And that completely changed my mindset. Actually, I think I stopped making [00:07:55] it about other people, and I just made it about what I wanted to do in [00:08:00] life. I’ve never really.

Payman Langroudi: Failed until that point. Do you remember a moment where you did fail and you felt this [00:08:05] is the first time I’ve ever failed?

Rhona Eskander: Pei Pei like, there’s a lot of things that I want to unpack here, right? Okay. Already [00:08:10] before. Before. Well, first of all, first of all, I want to say, like, you have incredible humility. Like [00:08:15] what you’ve done is beyond the norm. I don’t care if your parents were privileged or not privileged or if you came like, what [00:08:20] you’ve done is not the norm. It is incredibly impressive to get into Oxford and Cambridge do not [00:08:25] just get you because you come from a good background. You get into those universities because [00:08:30] you are incredibly gifted and incredibly hardworking. So I think that’s number one [00:08:35] that, you know, don’t be a typical woman, just like take what you’ve achieved as incredible. [00:08:40] The other thing that I’m hearing, which I find interesting, is the competition thing, because actually I found the opposite. [00:08:45] Being a dental school, I went I was thrown into an environment where I was nothing like anyone because [00:08:50] I was half science based. So like left right side of the brain. So I loved biology and [00:08:55] chemistry, I loved English and philosophy, and I wanted all my English and philosophy friends. So I was friends with [00:09:00] people that were not involved in the Dental school. And I found the Dental school was actually like a way worse [00:09:05] version of school, because people were really competitive and very entwined with each other. So [00:09:10] do you think that’s because the culture in Oxford is somewhat different than, you know, redbrick [00:09:15] universities?

Sonia Szamocki: I think that people go there because they like [00:09:20] learning for learning sake. I think there is an element of that. And so [00:09:25] college system exists to create small groups of people that that [00:09:30] learn together. So you’re learning isn’t done. There is an element of lecture based teaching, [00:09:35] but most of your teaching is done in groups of 5 or 6. As you said, you meet together a few times a week with a tutor, [00:09:40] and it’s a very collegial environment where you come and you prepare something [00:09:45] and you debate and you discuss and you learn from each other. So there was almost no point in being competitive, [00:09:50] because the more you put into your little group, the more you got [00:09:55] out of each other as well. So I after I went to. So I [00:10:00] don’t think it’s a red brick versus other types of union or an Oxbridge thing. I think it’s [00:10:05] just the structure actually of the of the way that you learn. That means [00:10:10] that it doesn’t feel like, you know, only one person can be successful. [00:10:15] Actually, the rising tide floats all boats.

Rhona Eskander: Um, it’s the medical degree [00:10:20] in Oxford, though, in comparison to the US, because, for example, um, Leeds Dental School [00:10:25] was very much gearing you for a world of NHS and that’s what they were geared like. You are designed [00:10:30] to come out of this system prepared and dedicated to the NHS, [00:10:35] and that’s what I knew came out of Leeds like nailed loads of extractions, amalgams [00:10:40] and dentures, you know, can you believe. And then obviously you go out and you realise like one [00:10:45] of the things that was really drilled and I remember my tutors go, whatever you do, don’t become a general dentist. [00:10:50] Like it was like the worst thing. So either you have to be committed and pursue the route of [00:10:55] academia within your university, or you dedicate your life to the NHS. [00:11:00] Do you think Oxford Oxford was somewhat different in a way, as in, [00:11:05] did they want you to be more on the research side of things? Did they want, you know, they want you to change [00:11:10] the system? What what was your experience?

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. So the the degree is structured differently. [00:11:15] So your first three years of medicine, you don’t see a patient. And that was made very clear that this is an [00:11:20] academic degree. You’re going to learn the science of medicine, not the practical [00:11:25] application your first three years. So you go and technically with your eyes wide open. Although how much can you actually [00:11:30] know when you’re 17 going to university? Obviously you don’t know anything. So but that’s that leads [00:11:35] you on to doing a lot of the kind of research type work. And it [00:11:40] means that at the end of those three years. So I left with an Ma, which was quite odd. I left [00:11:45] with a master’s and so that you can have a natural break at that point to [00:11:50] go down a sort of research route and never practice. Or you go on to clinical [00:11:55] school and then you, you are fully dedicated to your, your practical, you know, NHS [00:12:00] learning how to be a doctor. So it was very split actually. And lots of people did leave after those first three years. [00:12:05] Some left to go and, you know, into pharma or finance [00:12:10] or into research or when, you know, there was lots of that. And then, then, then there were people that [00:12:15] went back to, um, and pursued their, their the vocation [00:12:20] of medicine.

Payman Langroudi: And what about my question?

Rhona Eskander: I was going to say how you can ask about the failure.

Payman Langroudi: Failure [00:12:25] as someone who’d never failed, wouldn’t the first time you felt like you failed and how did that affect you?

Sonia Szamocki: Oh, [00:12:30] gosh. Um, so I, I’m not going to try and skirt on the question, but I think [00:12:35] that I have been an eternal optimist forever. So I, [00:12:40] I think that whenever something happens that is not to plan [00:12:45] my, my mental, my reaction is always to say, well, look, [00:12:50] what are we going to do with it? As opposed to stopping and thinking, I’ve failed, [00:12:55] I’ve never found it particularly helpful. Thought process to go through the bad. [00:13:00]

Payman Langroudi: Question, you.

Sonia Szamocki: Know, but it’s not. Things haven’t go not to say that things haven’t gone wrong. I think [00:13:05] they go wrong all the time, but I don’t I don’t know if I’ve ever seen even the most, the [00:13:10] most disastrous things as a failure because I’ve learnt an awful lot. And that sounds [00:13:15] really, really trite. But I think especially in the world where I am now, where for [00:13:20] every ten things that don’t work, the one thing that does work is the thing that makes the big difference to almost [00:13:25] not fail. You know, not failing is a really bad thing. You know, you’ve got [00:13:30] to be willing to, to throw yourself into situations where you just haven’t got a clue. And [00:13:35] if it goes badly, not to beat yourself up about it. So maybe I’ve [00:13:40] just blocked blocked it out. If there were moments where I really, I really wasn’t successful, [00:13:45] I have probably just picked myself up and gone and done something else and just honestly [00:13:50] just forgotten about it. So not to try and be evasive. Loads of things haven’t gone, [00:13:55] haven’t gone right, haven’t gone to plan. But did that happen.

Rhona Eskander: During university as well, or was it more so [00:14:00] when you left university?

Sonia Szamocki: I mean I think you’re one is quite sheltered at university. I don’t know if you found [00:14:05] that, you know, you’re quite mollycoddle. I felt a.

Rhona Eskander: Lot at university. Not physical exams, but rejections, a lot for [00:14:10] interviews and things like that.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. And again, I think that, you know, for example, failing. [00:14:15] So we talked a bit about, um, about fundraising and fast forwarding here, way, [00:14:20] way to sort of close to where I am now. But you know, when you go out and you try and raise money for a company, [00:14:25] you get 99 no’s for every. Yes. And that [00:14:30] can be really disheartening if you let it get to you. Whereas if you speak to lots [00:14:35] of other people who have been through the process, they’ll tell you that you’re going to get 99 [00:14:40] no’s and just make sure that every no that you get, you try and understand what went wrong. And [00:14:45] by the time you get to your 100th, you’re going to be ready for the. Yes. I think the other thing [00:14:50] that I would say, I think I’ve gotten much better, having changed careers quite a few times now [00:14:55] at recognising that every time I start something new, I’m going to be really, really shit at it. [00:15:00] So the first time I was maybe this is a good example, the first week or a month that [00:15:05] I was at BCG, right? Bcg is a very different kettle of fish to [00:15:10] being a doctor, so you’ve just about got your head around being a doctor. And then you leave and then you go into this new world. [00:15:15] And actually by that point, I had been in medicine for ten years because I’d done a six year degree [00:15:20] and then four years as a doctor, and then I was going to this new place.

Sonia Szamocki: And so you’re used to being [00:15:25] vaguely proficient at what you’re doing, and you’ve also got this title that means something to people, [00:15:30] and you expect to be able to turn up and hit the ground running and be really good. And I [00:15:35] was rubbish at that job for a long time, and I was told the day that [00:15:40] I joined that I would be very bad at that job and that, um, you know, you’ve just got a lot to learn [00:15:45] as a medic. You haven’t. You’ve got no life experience when it comes to building businesses, understanding businesses, opening [00:15:50] an Excel spreadsheet, opening up a file. But you just don’t know. So to get ready and [00:15:55] because, you know, people that went there were quite academic. They also said, [00:16:00] you know, but you’re going to think that you’re the exception to this, but you’re not you’re going to be really bad at this. So just [00:16:05] get used to it. Just just get on board. Just lean in. This is going to be really miserable. So I think I’ve got better [00:16:10] at understanding that process and just embracing it, as opposed to feeling uncomfortable [00:16:15] when things aren’t going well. Eventually you’ll get out of it and you’ll be able to look back [00:16:20] and go, God, that was I was very bad, and now I now I vaguely understand [00:16:25] what I’m supposed to be doing here, and that never stops. And it probably shouldn’t ever stop.

Payman Langroudi: But, you know, you said you [00:16:30] enjoyed your degree. Do you sometimes look at a task or a job [00:16:35] or whatever and somehow train yourself to enjoy the process?

Sonia Szamocki: I [00:16:40] think so. I think that’s a really yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Some successful people have of [00:16:45] finding a way to enjoy whatever they’re doing, because there must be aspects [00:16:50] of your work that you hate, right? And yet, yeah, that’s a good question. Every [00:16:55] time I say a word like hate or I see your face wince because you just don’t like those words.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:17:00] think, you know, the thing is, is that I think you’re basically saying optimism to some [00:17:05] kind of degree. Um, and finding the benefits. But I don’t necessarily [00:17:10] agree with what you’re saying, because I think it takes a certain type of brain to appreciate that I [00:17:15] have ADHD. So if I find something so overwhelming an [00:17:20] Excel sheet, I can look at it and I can really try [00:17:25] and focus on it for two hours and I get even more overwhelmed. And it’s not because I’m not trying or not trying [00:17:30] to enjoy it. I’m so overwhelmed that my brain can’t take it. And I think that there comes a point as [00:17:35] well, of recognising what you do enjoy and being able to also ask for help. Slash, [00:17:40] delegate, slash, get someone else on board. I think there’s power in that. Rather than being like, I’m going [00:17:45] to be so optimistic about this thing I hate because you’re wasting time on things that you really love and [00:17:50] can do even better and be more productive at work.

Payman Langroudi: On your strengths rather than your weakness.

Sonia Szamocki: I can completely believe [00:17:55] that. So I’ve obviously ended up in a place where maybe I’ve been able to [00:18:00] link up the things that I’m naturally good at with what I enjoy. There are loads of things that I’m [00:18:05] not very good at. One thing that I noticed recently I’m so bad at directions [00:18:10] it is, but it’s like it’s paralysed, like I left [00:18:15] right? You know, I’ll, I’ll do a loop around and be like, where, where am I? And [00:18:20] it’s the same thing. If I were to actually sit down and think about how am I going to just get [00:18:25] better at this? Um, I think it would really stress me out because, um, you know, maybe [00:18:30] I’m just not very good at directions, and that’s fine. So I think it’s I’m not saying that this is universal. [00:18:35] I’m saying that this application that I’ve obviously naturally veered [00:18:40] towards, that’s where I think I’m, I’m I’m better at it.

Rhona Eskander: So let’s [00:18:45] talk a little bit about why you left medicine. So you graduated and then what happened. Yeah. [00:18:50]

Sonia Szamocki: So I became a doctor. I did my my F1, my F2 years in [00:18:55] London, in hospitals like everybody else does. And I think [00:19:00] your first years coming out of any kind of health care degree, you’re [00:19:05] again, you’re very bad, you’re very helpless, and you’ve been promised that you’re [00:19:10] going to be this, this useful person to your patients. And actually, I didn’t find [00:19:15] that I was very useful. I felt like I was doing more rounds and, um, sort of, [00:19:20] you know, getting bloods and x rays, but I thought I was basically going to be house and [00:19:25] I wasn’t. So the first first two years is a bit of a, you know, a bit of a reckoning. And [00:19:30] then again you start to get better. And then I decided that I wanted to be an eye surgeon, [00:19:35] that I just decided that that was my speciality. So I went down the route of, [00:19:40] of trying to be an eye surgeon, but at the same time I set up my first business, which was an educational [00:19:45] business. So it was a tutoring business that helped kids do basically [00:19:50] Stem subjects. So I was doing these two things at the same time, and then I [00:19:55] and then I realised going deep into this ophthalmology [00:20:00] world, that sitting in a dark room with not very [00:20:05] many people was really not good for me. It was really not where I wanted to be and someone that really [00:20:10] values sunlight. I am a completely different person in summer to winter. So actually, [00:20:15] even though the subject matter the I was fascinating to me and I loved [00:20:20] it, that that environment sitting in a room in the dark because you have to have the lights off in ophthalmology, you have to [00:20:25] have the eyes dilated.

Sonia Szamocki: I can’t, I don’t think I could do this forever. So I [00:20:30] completely changed. I went to A&E and I love, I loved A&E complete opposite like noise, [00:20:35] chaos, lack of structure, great fun. But [00:20:40] but I also thought, I mean, can I do this forever? I don’t, I don’t really know, I, I [00:20:45] think you have a lot of choice in, in healthcare when you’re, when you’re young to decide where you want to [00:20:50] go. And sometimes there’s a little bit of a paralysis around what do I choose. So I really [00:20:55] started to think about whether this career was ticking all [00:21:00] of the boxes for me. I think there was a lot that it had to offer, but I’d started this business. I was starting to [00:21:05] really enjoy running it. I was starting to think about other things outside of medicine that [00:21:10] I could do. And to your point about Leeds and the fact that you’re hanging out with the artists because [00:21:15] Oxford was a college based system I didn’t have, I didn’t just hang [00:21:20] out with the medics. There was only six of us in the college. There were loads of people doing loads of other things. So all my friends were doing [00:21:25] many, many different other jobs. Yeah. And they ended up when I moved to London. We moved in together [00:21:30] and they were all doing these cool kind of finance jobs. I started. I was exposed to lots of other [00:21:35] careers that I think opened my eyes a bit to the world.

Sonia Szamocki: Uh, [00:21:40] and then I met some people who had gone into to consulting. Didn’t even know what it was. I [00:21:45] don’t know if actually many people know what it is, you know, going in and advising other companies [00:21:50] on their strategy and how they should run their company. It just doesn’t really make sense. [00:21:55] And I just thought that that was that was a really good way to [00:22:00] combine what I was doing in, um, in medicine with the real world. [00:22:05] Uh, and so I spent some time trying to get in. Right. That wasn’t easy [00:22:10] either. Again, a very kind of rigorous application process not dissimilar to getting [00:22:15] into university. And and I did. And this is not no, no [00:22:20] more creative than that. I think in that process, what I discovered was [00:22:25] the benefit of asking people for help. Asking people [00:22:30] for help is not something that was that common for medics. Even as a student, [00:22:35] really, you kind of get on and do your job, whereas this was a world, [00:22:40] I do not know anything about this. I’m gonna have to ask lots and lots of people to help me understand this. [00:22:45] And that, I think is is something that has carried me quite [00:22:50] a long way, and understanding that most people are incredibly generous with their time [00:22:55] if they have knowledge to share. If you’re willing to go and ask the right questions and [00:23:00] show that you’ve done a little bit of thinking and a bit of homework, you understand their value. It’s made a huge difference to everything [00:23:05] that I’ve done since.

Payman Langroudi: How augmedix and for the sake of it, dentists seen [00:23:10] by something like a consulting company. I mean, there’s going to be people listening to this who are thinking, [00:23:15] I might have a go at that. Yeah. Are we seeing healthcare professionals seen as a good fit [00:23:20] or not a good bet?

Sonia Szamocki: I know when I, when I left.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a good bet. That’s my hunch.

Sonia Szamocki: Well, that’s what [00:23:25] people said and then I so I left thinking because people said, oh, [00:23:30] you’re a medic. They’ll love that. And in reality, uh, no [00:23:35] one cares at all. Are you good at this job? I don’t, [00:23:40] you know, you were a doctor and that was great. Good for you. But I need you to now do this job That was [00:23:45] really, really strange because you’re so used to being put on a pedestal and, um, [00:23:50] and revered, and it’s not negative. It’s not a negative. No, no, it’s not, it’s. Yeah. It’s not, [00:23:55] it’s sort of it’s a.

Rhona Eskander: It’s a nonentity is what she’s saying. Like it makes you.

Sonia Szamocki: Sort of.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:24:00] could even see it as a negative because we sort of don’t know about Excel. And you know, it’s.

Sonia Szamocki: A little bit of that. There’s also the fact [00:24:05] that you spent a long time doing it. So I, I went to I was, I was competing [00:24:10] or competing, but, you know, the people in my intake and I was learning the same thing as them were 21 [00:24:15] and I was, you know, so you’ve you’ve done other things for a long time. So now [00:24:20] you’re a bit older and you’re having to go right back to the beginning and you kind of feel [00:24:25] like, well, I’m sort of owed a little bit of credit for everything that I’ve done here, but you don’t get any credit [00:24:30] because you don’t know how to do any of this stuff. So, um, so I think what [00:24:35] I will say, though, is that people really understood the value of having had of [00:24:40] being good with people. I think that’s a skill that you can’t teach. [00:24:45] You get it from experience. A 21 year old won’t have the [00:24:50] experience that you’ve had dealing with patients every single day. [00:24:55] And what that brings from an emotional perspective and how you have to behave. [00:25:00] And I think you can translate the way that you behave in front of a patient, you know, quite nicely [00:25:05] to how you behave when you’re in front of a client. It’s very similar. So I think medics [00:25:10] are and dentists are trusted to understand what [00:25:15] to say and when to say it. And that’s the that’s actually the thing that is valuable in [00:25:20] in the world, all the other hard skills. And when I say hard, I don’t mean they’re difficult. I mean like things [00:25:25] that you learn like Excel, they’re pretty. I mean, anyone you can learn how to do that that’s not [00:25:30] that’s not difficult. So I think that’s the bit where, you know, medics, [00:25:35] dentists need to realise that that’s where you have an advantage. You know, people trust you [00:25:40] as an individual to not just be trustworthy but know how to deal with human [00:25:45] beings, real human beings. Did you?

Rhona Eskander: So did you feel like you were thriving in [00:25:50] a boardroom more so than you were in A and E, A [00:25:55] and E room?

Sonia Szamocki: Eventually? Eventually? Probably, yes. [00:26:00] Um, I mean, I don’t think you can throw. I don’t know if you can thrive in a any. [00:26:05] I’m trying to think about what that might look like.

Rhona Eskander: It was a trick question. Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: I hated it. [00:26:10]

Rhona Eskander: Because I’ll tell you why. It isn’t that. But I think.

Payman Langroudi: You enjoy.

Rhona Eskander: The [00:26:15] healthcare system to me, is extremely flawed. I think there was a dentist. You might have seen this [00:26:20] that posted something about a vet bill recently. Like a tiny. It was like an animal. [00:26:25]

Payman Langroudi: And I paid 400 for my vet. And how come my patients don’t pay me more?

Rhona Eskander: And [00:26:30] then it was like, um, and they basically the whole premise was there was a photo of [00:26:35] a animal and it was like the VAT bill cost, I don’t know, £800 or whatever. And [00:26:40] then the person, the dentist had written it saying the whole health care system is flawed because we have patients [00:26:45] that are saying that we’re ripping them off, but they’re happy to pay for the VAT bill, but not for the root canal [00:26:50] or the fillings or whatever it is. And they said, you know, it’s a flaw in the system. And I think that’s [00:26:55] really the problem because I think medicine really put me off from the beginning. I saw my dad’s [00:27:00] struggle on the NHS. He’s been on the podcast as well, talking about his NHS journey. [00:27:05] I’ll never forget about when he told me that he was a junior doctor and the consultant [00:27:10] in the osteo department, like made him hold up someone’s leg for like seven hours [00:27:15] and my dad moved a bit and then he had a go at him and he was like, he had dandruff on his shoulders. And he said, a [00:27:20] typical consultant.

Rhona Eskander: And my dad was saying like, the whole system was awful. And now we have this new generation [00:27:25] of dentists, junior doctors that are like, no, we’re not doing this. Like we have enough [00:27:30] knowledge and we’re better equipped to say this is not okay. But unfortunately, the public [00:27:35] still aren’t on our side. The public are still like, no, we’ve paid for your education. [00:27:40] You owe us. I once had someone tell me off on TikTok, and this is going to make you laugh on Instagram, [00:27:45] because he said that I don’t represent the modern day Florence Nightingale. That’s literally [00:27:50] what he said to me, because I’ve been on the BBC and I was giving oral health advice and he’s like, you don’t look [00:27:55] like Florence Nightingale. I’m like, but who knows what Florence Nightingale would have been like if she had Instagram? Just [00:28:00] saying number one. And number two, you can’t expect. It’s the notion that we [00:28:05] are just here to give our life and soul. And the reality is if we are not [00:28:10] well within ourselves, physical and mental, we can’t give to patients. That’s the reality.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah, [00:28:15] I couldn’t agree more. So I told the story before about this time in A&E when it was two [00:28:20] in the morning, and I and I weaned myself off of caffeine to be able to do night shifts. So I would, I [00:28:25] would be really sensitive to caffeine. And then at 2 a.m. I would go and I would get my fix and I’d be buzzing [00:28:30] for the rest of the night. And but obviously there’s no cost to open. So I [00:28:35] would go into the official patient kitchen, which is a fridge and a counter, and I would get [00:28:40] the world’s most disgusting instant coffee, and I would make myself coffee down in the corner. And then one, [00:28:45] one day, um, a nurse, you know, someone caught me and said, you can’t have that. That’s patient coffee. [00:28:50] And I was like, I cannot, I just don’t know [00:28:55] what. I don’t know how you’re supposed to do this job when you’re giving [00:29:00] everything emotionally. Physically. I haven’t weed for [00:29:05] eight hours. And then to be told that I can’t have patient coffee. The [00:29:10] balance between the way that we treat our junior doctors [00:29:15] in particular, but also, you know, throughout, I mean, it happens in the community as well, in [00:29:20] primary care, the expectation that patients have because they don’t see [00:29:25] the bill. Right, that you don’t see the NHS bill that you incur, not the real [00:29:30] one. So you don’t ascribe value to it.

Payman Langroudi: They actually showed them the bill.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah [00:29:35] we do. Yeah they do. So the way it works in Hollywood is it’s insurance based. Is that you? You [00:29:40] will see that you don’t pay it. You see it. So you suddenly see, well actually that costs £15,000. [00:29:45] I’d better be grateful for it. And I’d better be grateful for the person who. I think that’s. [00:29:50]

Rhona Eskander: A really good thing we.

Sonia Szamocki: Should be doing.

Payman Langroudi: If the NHS the interview treatment says this treatment cost the NHS [00:29:55] 20 grand.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think that’s a really I think because then they’ll start to appreciate the value of it. The [00:30:00] problem is there’s a conflict. Right. And I think the only thing to blame is when you see certain [00:30:05] doctors and dentists, particularly the ones that work in aesthetics, that start showing, like they’re really flashy [00:30:10] lifestyle. And then there’s people that can’t get an appointment because they have a toothache. And I think that’s also [00:30:15] where the conflict resides, where people I’m not saying they don’t have a right to live that lifestyle, but that’s what they’re seeing. [00:30:20] Right? It’s the old age tale of, you know, the Prince and the pauper. Marie Antoinette, you know, gives that [00:30:25] dialogue. You know, people not caring and not being in touch with what the public are [00:30:30] going through. So it’s a difficult one to battle. But [00:30:35] when you had left medicine, did you have any regrets? Initially, no.

Sonia Szamocki: I get I think about [00:30:40] this a lot. So regret number one. It’s not a regret, but I think what you feel very, very quickly [00:30:45] is the disappointment collectively of your peers and your family. [00:30:50] So, um, yeah, Indian part of the family is Indian. I mean, to give up [00:30:55] your your medication and give up medicine. For what? To go and work in [00:31:00] some un. You know, God knows what you’re doing now. So that’s number one. [00:31:05] And then that I think that there’s a lot of guilt even, you know, because I get approached [00:31:10] once a week on LinkedIn by a medic who wants to leave to say, [00:31:15] how did you do it? I want to I think I want to do it, but I don’t know how [00:31:20] and when I talk to them because a lot of people gave me advice. So I try and talk to as many people as I can. Guilt [00:31:25] is the first thing that’s going through their mind. What am I giving up? And is this am [00:31:30] I allowed to do this? You know, because yeah, someone else has paid for my education and that’s [00:31:35] the first thing. And then I think, what you what you then you move on into a new [00:31:40] world where it’s an entirely different world with different rules. And there are now new [00:31:45] things that are stresses. There are new things that are benefits. And [00:31:50] then you start to what floats to the top is actually what did I really value in that previous career, [00:31:55] and what did I take completely for granted? So when I left medicine [00:32:00] and I went into this new world where, for example, every meal was paid for, [00:32:05] I was given a taxi home every night and, you know, five [00:32:10] star hotels when I was seeing clients in exchange for here is a phone.

Sonia Szamocki: When [00:32:15] it rings, you will pick it up. It doesn’t matter what day it is and it doesn’t matter what time it is. You are [00:32:20] working in exchange for the things that I had completely [00:32:25] taken for granted in medicine, which is connecting with a [00:32:30] human being that is not buying a service from you where you don’t have to. [00:32:35] Well, they sort of buy your service, but where where you really are trying [00:32:40] to do your best to help them on a, on a human level and where they are putting an enormous [00:32:45] amount of trust in you just for the fact that you’re wearing a set of scrubs [00:32:50] and that you’ve got a steth around your neck and a and a lanyard. Those are the things that, now [00:32:55] that I am somewhere else, is the reason why people want to come and work in, for example, healthcare Start-Up. [00:33:00] That connection to I’m having an impact every single day. And I can I can see it in that person’s [00:33:05] eyes that they’re grateful for what I’ve done. I’ve given them something to help their pain, or I’ve improved their confidence [00:33:10] even from something that I’ve done aesthetically. Most jobs don’t have that. Yeah, they really [00:33:15] don’t.

Payman Langroudi: That a heartfelt thank you from a patient.

Rhona Eskander: It’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t exist in the world [00:33:20] of business.

Sonia Szamocki: It really doesn’t.

Rhona Eskander: I think people and I think that’s the thing, like people are like [00:33:25] that emotional connection that you can convey through medicine [00:33:30] and dentistry is really difficult to convey in any other job. I totally agree. I had a patient [00:33:35] that came in yesterday and she was really nervous, couldn’t even look her photos, and she was like, [00:33:40] it was all of your patient reactions that got me here, because I feel like you have [00:33:45] the ability to make people so happy. And it’s crazy. Like on the one hand, I was a bit like, oh my God, like, [00:33:50] does she think I have the ability? I don’t have that superpower. But then I recognise that [00:33:55] people can really feel that emotion through the screen, by me simply recording someone’s when it’s like.

Payman Langroudi: When. [00:34:00]

Rhona Eskander: I’m not giving them onions to kind of like, you know, think about.

Payman Langroudi: It is like it doesn’t even [00:34:05] make any sense. I mean, of course it makes sense, but we’re we’re a community of humans and all that. But, [00:34:10] you know, if, if to think that that is the thing that’s driving most of us at [00:34:15] work, you know, like that sort of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs sort of thing. [00:34:20]

Sonia Szamocki: But that’s why you end up being able to underpay. Yeah. Doctors, because you get you’re like, [00:34:25] well, you’ve got all of this prestige and you get all these thank you pensions and the pension [00:34:30] and the box of celebrations after, you know, you know, that is why I think [00:34:35] you get well. We allow as as medics [00:34:40] it to get to the point where it really is too much. Yeah, yeah. You know, [00:34:45] in other professions you would just leave the job, you would just leave [00:34:50] the job. And they, you know, because you’re part of this enormous machine, the NHS and, [00:34:55] um, you feel like that.

Payman Langroudi: Reliance on of the goodwill, on on [00:35:00] the goodwill of the doctors and nurses these days, uh, unfortunately [00:35:05] they’re, they’re so jaded that the goodwill isn’t there anymore. You know, my, [00:35:10] your dad must or your dad’s work in hospitals anymore. No, but he says the juniors, [00:35:15] they they they haven’t got that goodwill anymore, you know.

Sonia Szamocki: What do you mean? What do you.

Rhona Eskander: Mean by that?

Payman Langroudi: You [00:35:20] know, in our day, let’s say you were on call last weekend, and now they’re telling you to work [00:35:25] next weekend as well. Yeah. There would be something in you that was trying to please your bosses. And [00:35:30] who’s going to do the work and their patience, your goodwill to the system and say, all right, I’ll do that weekend. [00:35:35]

Rhona Eskander: But you’re saying now.

Payman Langroudi: Today, people just stand up for their rights?

Rhona Eskander: I think that, like, you [00:35:40] know, it’s difficult because sometimes as well, being a practice owner [00:35:45] that interviews a plethora of people and my practice represents extreme [00:35:50] diversity, I find it really difficult working with Gen Z for those reasons. Like, [00:35:55] I’m not coming in today because I’ve got period pains. I’m like, and do you know what I mean? Like, [00:36:00] I literally unless I was dying, I used to come in so I’d be like, how, how could this nation? But then [00:36:05] the other part of me is like, there’s so much education coming on about like female hormones and all this [00:36:10] stuff, and maybe they are the generation that’s understanding that you can take time off and that it is important. And [00:36:15] actually your period is also linked to your mental health. But I don’t know, like I don’t know what the answer is because also [00:36:20] you need a balance to keep business going. And as you said, as we have responsibility to take care [00:36:25] of patients, who’s going to take care of the patients if you don’t come to work today? And I think our sense [00:36:30] of, you know, that saying, you know, that sense of duty because like, you know, you’re always remember, like at dental school when people [00:36:35] like when you’re learning about like finger grips or how to place your hand and they say, always better to [00:36:40] cut yourself than the patient, right? And you know, that has quite a metaphorical meaning as well, right? It’s like you [00:36:45] become lost and immediately and that’s again, a bit like the Hippocratic Oath as well. Like, we [00:36:50] know that we have a sense of duty to look after everyone else before ourselves, which is [00:36:55] why it becomes almost impossible for us to manage our own mental health, our [00:37:00] our own health in general. And I think it’s a really tricky one. And as an owner.

Sonia Szamocki: As well, I think that [00:37:05] you’re right. So I speaking there from perhaps a different generation where there was a [00:37:10] very strong sense of duty. And when I ask friends now who, for example, imagine this, I have friends who are paediatric [00:37:15] surgeons, right. And there’s one of you, right? There’s one person who can fix [00:37:20] this part of a baby today in London. And the other dude’s sick. So [00:37:25] can you come in? Under what circumstance are you going to say no? Right. So people [00:37:30] need to, I think, understand when they see doctors [00:37:35] that they are that that is also what they’re going through and that a small [00:37:40] thank you or a recognition that that there are people who are trying to live the same [00:37:45] life as you when they go home. Will goes a long way.

Payman Langroudi: And then there might be [00:37:50] a six year old son who didn’t have his dad on his birthday because of that. Exactly, exactly. [00:37:55]

Sonia Szamocki: But it’s a good question about Gen Z. I think it’s you must have Gen.

Payman Langroudi: Z’s working for you now. [00:38:00]

Sonia Szamocki: This is the difficult thing. So in a I mean, yes, but but I [00:38:05] don’t know if people identify as Gen Z. I think you’re talking about a type. Yeah. A type of, [00:38:10] um, a way of thinking and a way of putting different things at the [00:38:15] forefront of your life versus, you know, the millennial. Yeah. And I and I find it as [00:38:20] just as difficult, really difficult to tease apart. Look, we’re a young business that is that [00:38:25] is growing very quickly and things change. And this is not a big corporate [00:38:30] where you can get lost. And if you don’t turn up one day, it’ll be fine. Someone will feel like every [00:38:35] person is incredibly valuable, and if you’re not, and this [00:38:40] is not the right place for you, and if you’re not willing to take on that responsibility of me and [00:38:45] the rest of the team being able to put the trust in you, you’re going to turn up and you’re going to own what you’re doing and you get to deliver. [00:38:50] Then you’re not just sound like my mum, not just letting yourself [00:38:55] down. You’re letting the team down, right? There are other people who are relying on you, and I find it really difficult [00:39:00] to firstly understand when you’re interviewing someone where they’re going to land, when [00:39:05] the shit hits the fan, where are they going to land on their look? I’m going to I’m [00:39:10] going to give it my all.

Payman Langroudi: If that’s happening all the time, right. That’s happening all the time. So you need to know the answer [00:39:15] to that question. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s why like Probations are so important and like having [00:39:20] that period to really reassess. But again, also like the [00:39:25] recruitment process in dentistry is like the worst thing about owning a business. I just [00:39:30] loathe it and hate it.

Payman Langroudi: So much in general.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I just think that, you know, as you said, like [00:39:35] because the most important thing, I mean, obviously running a business is running a business, but you really worry [00:39:40] about the patient. You’re like, the nurse is not turned up, then you’ve got a temp and then the temp is upset. Do [00:39:45] you see what I mean? It has such a domino effect. You know what I mean? Like, the Dental [00:39:50] system really is so reliant, you know, on the team [00:39:55] working together. Like everything falls.

Payman Langroudi: Apart. In the same way, if one of her team doesn’t turn up one day, [00:40:00] you’re not going to get your aligners. Yeah. And then that’s going to have the same. Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: All that that [00:40:05] was really important. You know we’re going to have to push it by a week. It’s I think the balance [00:40:10] between the rights that you feel that you have as a person, not just in work, but in society [00:40:15] and the responsibilities, I think is always shifting. And I think it’s always been, [00:40:20] you know, maybe a little bit far to one side, but I think it’s a little bit over onto the what am I? I know exactly [00:40:25] what my rights are and I’m sort of ignoring the responsibility bit. [00:40:30] And look, I think it’s being driven by the right things. Like you say, you know, it’s not all [00:40:35] good having people feeling like they are constantly under pressure to deliver at work and that they [00:40:40] cannot have a life outside of work and they cannot have what I really think.

Rhona Eskander: People are moving away [00:40:45] from that. I really, really think people now are really I mean, within dentistry, I’m hearing more [00:40:50] and more and I’m seeing even my own workplace. Like dentists, most of them want to work part time now. Yeah, they [00:40:55] literally want their day to have off. A lot of them want to become content creators, you [00:41:00] know? I mean, there’s all this stuff. So I think we’ve seen a massive movement, you know, that Gen Z, isn’t [00:41:05] it? Gen Z you’re seeing across the millennial board. Like, and when I say Gen Z, I mean [00:41:10] people kind of like in their 20s, but really they’re still technically millennials, right? And if you look at the if [00:41:15] you look at the costs and the numbers. Exactly. And it’s really like just the baby boomers, which [00:41:20] are our parents generation, are very much like, no, this is the way it is. You rock up my dad, [00:41:25] you’ve got chickenpox, go to school, cost £400 a day to school. It’s [00:41:30] going to happen. So I want.

Payman Langroudi: To know, Sonia, what would you consider as being your [00:41:35] darkest day? Could maybe break it into [00:41:40] into this business that tuco?

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Or medicine. I want to know.

Rhona Eskander: More [00:41:45] about the business. Can we go into that?

Payman Langroudi: We’ll go into that.

Sonia Szamocki: So you think [00:41:50] about what’s the worst thing that could happen here as a business owner, right? [00:41:55] You’re thinking about, you know, something bad happening to a patient for me is really [00:42:00] up there with a bad thing happening, because number one, I care. [00:42:05] And number two, that has knock on effects to the trust that people have. And we’re in healthcare. We’re in very [00:42:10] much in a trust based business. So that’s the kind of first bucket. And luckily [00:42:15] we’ve had none of that. Second bucket is can I keep this thing alive? Right. [00:42:20] Can I look after not just the customers but my team who I’ve built, who have put their trust [00:42:25] in. How many are you? Me? We’re about 70 people now, you know. Can I keep this [00:42:30] thing going? And to your previous point around, if you bootstrap a company, you [00:42:35] start with, you know, no money and then you make money, and then you hire people as you go [00:42:40] and you run a profitable business. And to some extent, you have a sense of, um, [00:42:45] what you can afford to spend on a, on a weekly, monthly basis in venture. It’s the [00:42:50] opposite, right? Someone gives you money ahead of time and then you grow into the [00:42:55] valuation, um.

Payman Langroudi: And occasionally buy your way out of trouble. Right. And [00:43:00] you go back.

Sonia Szamocki: And ask for more money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a very normal part. You say, look, we’ve hit these milestones. [00:43:05] I think now we’re worth much more than we were last time. You know, we need [00:43:10] more money to fuel this next phase of growth.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m saying is it can cause it can cause a sort of a [00:43:15] false situation as well. You you don’t end up learning a lesson of not [00:43:20] being able to afford that thing because you can.

Sonia Szamocki: The world of venture has gone through an enormous [00:43:25] change in the last two years. So in 2020, 2021, [00:43:30] it was so interest rates were so low that anyone could raise money [00:43:35] for anything. Right. So you go to a venture, um, investing, you say, look, I’ve got this great idea. I haven’t done [00:43:40] a single thing. It’s, you know, just written down here, I think I need $10 million. And [00:43:45] they say, here’s $10 million. And the system was just awash with cash. And there were people who did [00:43:50] very sensible things with that money, and they grew businesses. They hired the right people. They [00:43:55] built value in either in a product or in an idea or in, you know, [00:44:00] in a community. And then there were also people who, you know, as [00:44:05] you said, were like, great, we’ve got £10 million in the bank. Let’s go and buy a [00:44:10] swanky office. And oh, all. I’m just the stories that you hear from people [00:44:15] about the things that were invested in that make no sense for a young company. That was, I think, just [00:44:20] a lot of irresponsible, not just allocation of capital. Right. Because [00:44:25] the VCs have a responsibility to sensibly give money, but also how [00:44:30] that was, how that was then spent. And we’ve seen in the last year that it’s completely changed. [00:44:35] It’s now very difficult to raise money and you really, really have to have proven that [00:44:40] you’ve hit those milestones and a lot of those businesses don’t exist anymore. So that is [00:44:45] where the sleepless nights come in. And it’s less of a kind of we’ve had this one big day. It’s just a constant [00:44:50] nagging thing that you’re thinking about. Are we getting this right? Are we getting this right? [00:44:55] Because, you know, you’ve got this, you’ve got a roadmap that you’re trying [00:45:00] to hit and and everything has to go right. A lot of things [00:45:05] have to go right to make sure that that that you hit what you said you’re going to hit. [00:45:10] Um, what kind of a.

Payman Langroudi: Toll does it take on you mentally? And how do you get out of it when you’re in that situation? [00:45:15]

Sonia Szamocki: I think I used to be I used to be worse at it. I think I’ve really learned how [00:45:20] to cope with those thoughts. I think number one, having [00:45:25] a having a clear plan of what you’re going to do gives you a sense of peace because you can sort of see, well, [00:45:30] look, I can I can sort of think, I can see we’re going to get there. And then I it’s not a big leap to get there. And [00:45:35] then I can think, you can sort of see it in front of you. And that takes away some of the, the [00:45:40] worry. I suppose personally, for me, there are lifestyle [00:45:45] things that I’ve had to do to to make this feasible. I mean, [00:45:50] I’ll be honest, I work a lot, I work a lot, I work weekends, [00:45:55] I work late, and a lot of my team do too.

Rhona Eskander: That had an effect on your relationship [00:46:00] and your personal life?

Sonia Szamocki: Yes and yes and no. I think in the beginning [00:46:05] it was, you know, all hands on deck and, you know, you can [00:46:10] forgive anyone anything for, you know, working so many hours because it’s all very exciting. And it’s [00:46:15] important, I think, as it’s become the norm. Had to set [00:46:20] some rules in place, not just for myself but also for for my partner to say, look, [00:46:25] we’re signed up to this gig. You know, that is going to mean X, Y, and Z, but it [00:46:30] also means that I’m going to make time for time together where? And it’s I literally [00:46:35] have to say we right now we are not talking about work. I do not want to talk about work [00:46:40] for the next. You know this this much time. Don’t look at phones. Right. [00:46:45] So there’s like a in the morning. I don’t look at my phone until a certain time. And I really [00:46:50] try and use that time to prepare for the day and not [00:46:55] let you know not to just dive into the emails and dive into the into [00:47:00] the chaos that is about to kick off. So protecting the time in the morning, exercising every morning, [00:47:05] just trying to get out, even if it’s just for, you know, a quick jog or into the gym. [00:47:10] Those are the sorts of rules that have had to put in place to make it workable. And none [00:47:15] of it is rocket science. It’s all the stuff that vary.

Payman Langroudi: The relationship does give, [00:47:20] can give is tends to be the first thing to give because the business isn’t going to give.

Rhona Eskander: So look, [00:47:25] you know, as a female entrepreneur before we started chatting on here, sorry, [00:47:30] you probably don’t have much to kind of come on on this, but you can. And I asked you if [00:47:35] you Payman was talking about children and asked you if you had children. And you said, I [00:47:40] asked if you’re child free. And you said, you know, that language is really important because you didn’t say child less. I didn’t even [00:47:45] didn’t even cross my mind to say childless. I just said child free because I think that we’ve recognised [00:47:50] that women are making decisions now. And the crazy thing is [00:47:55] around the female body, around our hormones, around the rules, the [00:48:00] people that have set the rules. Really all men. Sorry to say this, and I’ve really delved into this over the [00:48:05] last few weeks and I’m like, oh my God, this is crazy, you know? And we’ve barely had any input over the [00:48:10] centuries on our own rights and bodies. And obviously that’s changing now, and we’re challenging things. [00:48:15] But children are something that I’ve been thinking about quite a lot as I approach my kind of mid [00:48:20] to late 30s. It’s something that is on my mind and I think, you know, [00:48:25] the biological clock, of course, dictates that it’s difficult as an entrepreneur [00:48:30] and a business owner because you’ve got one baby, which is your business, and then you think about [00:48:35] another baby. What are your feelings with regards to that subject as I’m talking about it?

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah, [00:48:40] you’re you’re right. We don’t have the same decision making powers [00:48:45] as men do because you could have a child. And, [00:48:50] you know, it’s not like nothing would change, but you would continue to [00:48:55] work.

Payman Langroudi: I could get back to work the same way as.

Sonia Szamocki: The same way. And and I and I just don’t [00:49:00] think that it’s as easy for women. That being said, I have spent a lot of time [00:49:05] and I do spend a lot of time with female founders and female CEOs and talk about this, actually. [00:49:10] And I would say the the reassuring thing is that every [00:49:15] single one of them that’s had had a child and runs extremely successful [00:49:20] businesses, some of them are, you know, have built unicorns, you know, it’s [00:49:25] it’s it’s possible. And you will you will figure it out. It’s universally the feedback [00:49:30] that I’ve had is that you worry about it and you think, is it the right time? Is it now? Should [00:49:35] I do it six months? And actually, because you’ve got to at this point in building a business [00:49:40] and everything that you’ve built up until now was also very difficult. You’re clearly the kind of person [00:49:45] who will just figure it out. So if this is something that’s important to you, [00:49:50] then do it and you will do what is needed to make both work. [00:49:55] But I can’t advise you now, or you can’t know now [00:50:00] what you’re going to have to do to prepare yourself for that, because how could you possibly know what it’s going to feel [00:50:05] like to bring another human into the world? That is, you know, that, you know, you’ve got children I’m [00:50:10] sure you couldn’t have described before you had your children, how that would have felt [00:50:15] and how that would have changed.

Sonia Szamocki: So maybe it’s not. How do you feel? So I [00:50:20] take a lot from that. As I said, like I spend a lot of my time talking to different people to try and get an [00:50:25] understanding and almost to try and get a to try and get the wisdom from people who’ve been there before. So [00:50:30] my view on this is that I should take that very seriously, which is that if I [00:50:35] if I want children and I think at some point I will, I don’t right now, [00:50:40] then I will put the steps in place. Well, if I’m fortunate enough that I can have children, [00:50:45] I mean, there’s another big question mark that that I don’t know. Um, [00:50:50] I mean, I haven’t done a huge amount of, of research into this.

Rhona Eskander: Actually got podcast on egg freezing, [00:50:55] my dad and Sarita, two separate ones. So there we go. Worth a listen.

Sonia Szamocki: But but I mean, [00:51:00] why are we needing so much help with female fertility now? Why is it so hard [00:51:05] for for women to to conceive? Um, is it is it maybe because we’re living [00:51:10] a little bit later? Or is it because there are just stresses and strains and things that [00:51:15] I think.

Payman Langroudi: We’re leaving it later that.

Sonia Szamocki: Happen in life?

Payman Langroudi: We’re definitely leaving it later.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah, we are.

Rhona Eskander: Leaving [00:51:20] it later. And it’s like, I’m already going to be and sorry, you are two geriatric mothers as they [00:51:25] as they make the term. But the problem is, uh, Sonia said, actually, [00:51:30] whilst I have a lot of followers and friends on Instagram, like [00:51:35] some of them are having problems conceiving as young as like 28, 29 and that’s [00:51:40] young still in my eyes. Okay, sure. You know, maybe our parents generation, my mum, my mum [00:51:45] was considered old at 27, you know, in the 80s. That was crazy you know. And but [00:51:50] I think.

Payman Langroudi: 29 would have been old. Not old, but yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: It is, it is, it is [00:51:55] is, you know, and this is the kind of scary thing because it [00:52:00] plays such a pivotal role, I think, in women also [00:52:05] feeling like they can’t do certain things. I always wonder, would more [00:52:10] women be taking over the world in terms of like roles like CEO presidents [00:52:15] and everything like that? And, you know, it’s a really difficult thing because I’m not saying that I’m here to [00:52:20] exert all of this masculine energy, but I just think it’s very interesting [00:52:25] because you’ve got to make certain decisions.

Payman Langroudi: And we’ve had this discussion 100 times, but and [00:52:30] I’ve always said to you, you’ve got to take child care out of the discussion. If [00:52:35] you’re just simply talking about men and women. I mean, I think that’s an interesting question. Let’s put [00:52:40] children to one side. Do you think being a woman in the business world has been more difficult than it would [00:52:45] have been if you were a man?

Sonia Szamocki: Yes, I think so.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Rhona Eskander: By the way, [00:52:50] we debate this. We’ve debated this with Sarita.

Payman Langroudi: But why? For her? You know.

Rhona Eskander: Payman still yet to [00:52:55] find a woman that says no, but go on.

Sonia Szamocki: Yes. And it’s not a woe is me. I think [00:53:00] there are also advantages to being a woman that again, sometimes you [00:53:05] don’t even know that it’s happening. But, um, like it or not, [00:53:10] people look at women and make assumptions about what they will [00:53:15] or won’t do in terms of their career. So if you are looking [00:53:20] around.

Payman Langroudi: Childcare, right.

Sonia Szamocki: So what you mean about if you were, if.

Payman Langroudi: It was possible [00:53:25] to remove, cut, cut and paste child the whole childcare point out of the equation [00:53:30] day to day you’re running a company, you’re raising money. Is being a woman disadvantageous? [00:53:35]

Sonia Szamocki: Oh if you completely if it was possible to do so you know you don’t have to breastfeed. [00:53:40] And your mother fills the role of the woman.

Rhona Eskander: In the gender pay gaps, all these different things.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t believe [00:53:45] in gender pay gap.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. So so let me my my perspective [00:53:50] is that I grew up in a country so in the Netherlands and actually also oh my God, they’re awful.

Rhona Eskander: The Dutch [00:53:55] men. Sorry, sorry to anyone. I was mind blown. So I went to Africa Burn last year [00:54:00] and there were loads. Um, so obviously there’s loads of Dutch people that are very similar [00:54:05] to the South Africans. There was loads of them there and I was mind blown. Mind [00:54:10] blown about how like, the women act like men and the men were so useless. And [00:54:15] I was like, oh my God, the women are literally paying for everything. Like making all the moves and all this stuff like it was with such. [00:54:20]

Payman Langroudi: Women that just.

Rhona Eskander: Where do you think that.

Payman Langroudi: I got that?

Rhona Eskander: But what where did you think [00:54:25] the, um, the saying let’s go Dutch comes from, right? Like they don’t like men to pay for them [00:54:30] anyway. So one of my best friends ended up moving to Amsterdam and she was [00:54:35] like, whatever, the guy is really hot. Like she was going to this, like kind of new single era of her life back within four months. They [00:54:40] cannot deal with the Dutchman. She was like, it was horrendous and I don’t want to generalise, but she was [00:54:45] like, chivalry is dead. They don’t want to hold doors, they don’t want to buy you drinks. And they have this thing [00:54:50] called Kiki where they’re like, I’ll kick you. And like everything is like. And the women are the ones that, like, rule the roost. [00:54:55] Basically. Look, if if you’re into that. And that’s why I find it really funny because when people are like, oh my God, Rona, [00:55:00] you’re such a feminist and stuff like, yes, I am. But when it comes to [00:55:05] like, I like to feel desired and part of feeling desired is a man looking after me. [00:55:10]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, they have their version of that. Go ahead.

Sonia Szamocki: So that’s I think you’ve hit the nail [00:55:15] on the head. I grew up in an environment where men and women really weren’t treated differently, so I would play football [00:55:20] on the street with the boys. There really wasn’t a big difference. I also don’t remember [00:55:25] noticing that I was a different colour to people. Yeah, it wasn’t discussed. It wasn’t [00:55:30] it wasn’t a thing. And you know, I played a lot of European handball when I was growing [00:55:35] up. So my whole life was at the handball club and boys and girls were, you know, the same. We mixed, we trained together. [00:55:40] So this idea that men and women were different really [00:55:45] hasn’t been part of my life. Honestly. I think therefore when you then introduce [00:55:50] something that is a very traditionally female role, which is [00:55:55] the childcare part of it, I think that is where you see that is where you see the difference. [00:56:00] If you were to remove that entirely, which I think is very difficult. Yeah. Um, because ultimately, [00:56:05] you know, the woman carries the baby, you’ve got the whole you’ve got [00:56:10] the.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a difference. There is a difference.

Sonia Szamocki: I really think.

Rhona Eskander: That men and women are equal. Take out the kids. [00:56:15]

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: In in in.

Sonia Szamocki: Work.

Rhona Eskander: Anything in life?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Work. Let’s start [00:56:20] with work.

Sonia Szamocki: It’s.

Rhona Eskander: Come on. There is. There’s been so many like we even talk [00:56:25] about. For example, did you watch that Anne Hathaway film? I forgot what it’s called [00:56:30] now. Anyways, the film was what they I mean, there was the assumption that it was basically talking [00:56:35] about Olivia Wilde and Harry styles, and I’ll tell you why. So she is a 40 year old [00:56:40] woman that gets cheated on by her husband. Classically, he leaves for someone younger. She [00:56:45] takes her daughter to a concert. There’s the equivalent of like a One Direction group. Harry styles [00:56:50] out character. He fancies her. He’s 25, she’s 40. They have [00:56:55] an affair, yada yada yada. It’s quite a playful film. I think it’s based on a novel. Anyways, [00:57:00] and then there was this whole debate online about how women also get treated differently in that sense. Like, you [00:57:05] can be a really old guy and date really young women and no one will say anything. And then when she dated the younger guy, [00:57:10] she was called a cougar, a baby snatcher, a cradle snatcher. So a come [00:57:15] on.

Payman Langroudi: That’s that is just like uneducated thinking. But Payman.

Rhona Eskander: This is the whole thing. You [00:57:20] assume that all people are educated and think like you. That is not the case. You’ve even [00:57:25] said to me day.

Payman Langroudi: To day, day to day in the workplace.

Sonia Szamocki: This particular I don’t, I don’t operate [00:57:30] in, in the normal world at all. Right. I get to pick your in your world, but I [00:57:35] get to pick exactly who I bring into the business. So I’m going to be bringing people in [00:57:40] who represent what I think. So I, I, you know, we have a very diverse [00:57:45] team, not because I have hired for diversity, but because by hiring the smartest people, you will end up with a diverse [00:57:50] group of people. I have as many women as men. So we’re bringing people in to this very unusual [00:57:55] environment, which is fast growing Start-Up that’s sort of supported by [00:58:00] some of the top investors. And that’s not the real world, not for most people at BCG.

Payman Langroudi: Did [00:58:05] you feel.

Sonia Szamocki: As a.

Rhona Eskander: Consultant? Just tell me a little bit, because Payman [00:58:10] wanted to go off on a tangent, but tell me about about your company then and how it started.

Sonia Szamocki: So I [00:58:15] started the company after BCG and I spent a year just after BCG [00:58:20] working in a health tech company. So building a health tech company. We were building an app for patients [00:58:25] with haemophilia, so I was spending a lot of time on the on the cutting edge of, of healthcare [00:58:30] and of medicine. So I’d gone through this career as a clinician and then as a consultant, [00:58:35] a lot of which was spent in healthcare. So seeing how healthcare businesses run from [00:58:40] NHS trusts to pharma companies and then into the into the world of health tech. And I [00:58:45] was seeing so much cool innovation on that side, and I [00:58:50] was looking at essentially everything that was being brought to market from new devices, new pharmaceutical [00:58:55] treatments and then thinking, yeah, but if I were still a doctor, [00:59:00] there is no way that I’m using any of this stuff, at least for a generation. And why is that?

Rhona Eskander: Because [00:59:05] funding.

Sonia Szamocki: How are you supposed to learn how to use this stuff? Where is the where is number [00:59:10] one? Where’s the teaching? Where’s the understanding? Where’s the knowledge? Where’s the incentive for me to try something new? Actually, [00:59:15] this stuff.

Payman Langroudi: The cutting edge and clinical, you’re.

Sonia Szamocki: Never at the cutting edge. And especially in in primary [00:59:20] care, it might be for tertiary, you know, specialist hospital. You might get access to this cool stuff. So [00:59:25] I was thinking about that and I was thinking, wouldn’t it have been cool if if [00:59:30] I were still a doctor? Those are the sorts of things that have made me excited [00:59:35] about looking after patients, because this is where the action is. And I feel [00:59:40] like you’re ten, sometimes 20 years behind in the kind of healthcare that you’re able to deliver as [00:59:45] a frontline clinician. So what would it take to get that stuff into the [00:59:50] hands of your normal doctor, your normal dentist? That’s where the thinking came from. And it came down a [00:59:55] lot to really trying to understand and really get into the head [01:00:00] of the average doctor or dentist and saying, why? Why is it so difficult to try new things? Well, [01:00:05] it’s risk. You are never going to take an unnecessary risk on a patient. If you’re someone says to you, I’ll pay [01:00:10] £1 million to put this in your patient’s mouth, you’d be like, I’m not taking that. I don’t know what that is. You know [01:00:15] that people, I think, need to realise that, um, to your point about, you know, dentists being money grabbing potentially [01:00:20] because they’ve got a nice car, 99.9% of dentists have. I said, I’ll give [01:00:25] you £1 million to stick this random thing in their mouth. They would say, no way, I’m not doing that. So [01:00:30] risk aversion, not wanting to take risks and also just not understanding what it is and not [01:00:35] feeling comfortable with big barriers.

Sonia Szamocki: So I started to think about, well, [01:00:40] what, what, how could I unblock that? And I think it’s it’s fundamentally down [01:00:45] to the experiences going right back to when I was in A and E, where there [01:00:50] were times when I felt like I could do cool new things so I could do a lumbar puncture [01:00:55] for the first time on a patient. Why was I able to do that? Because I would do some reading. I would actually learn [01:01:00] about this technique. Then I would get an anaesthetist [01:01:05] to come and sit next to me and do it with me, and that gave me completely different [01:01:10] superpowers as a doctor. So the fact that I was in an A&E is one of the only places [01:01:15] where you have this. You have every single expert in every field just there. [01:01:20] You can walk up to them and say, hey, I’ve got this thing. I’ve no idea what it is. Can you come and [01:01:25] help me look at this? And And most doctors and dentists, especially in primary [01:01:30] care, don’t have that unless you work in a, you know, you’ve got specialists in your clinic unless you’ve got specialists [01:01:35] right there. So, you know, I wanted to build something that would help the average [01:01:40] clinician get access to the world, expert in the thing that the patient had that was in front of them, so [01:01:45] that they could start to deliver that care there, as opposed to that patient having to go and travel to wherever [01:01:50] that was. And that’s basically the concept behind 32. So we started [01:01:55] in orthodontics because one of the reasons was because [01:02:00] there was an explosion in direct to consumer online orthodontics. [01:02:05]

Sonia Szamocki: And I was, you know, I didn’t know that much about dentistry at the time. I spent a bit of time in Covid, [01:02:10] you know, thinking about how to deliver treatment remotely for, for patients when their dentist was shut. [01:02:15] And so it’s I started to talk to dentists and start to ask them, why is this [01:02:20] allowed? I’ve had braces. How is it possible that you can go online and [01:02:25] buy braces from goodness knows what, and [01:02:30] then put it in your mouth? That can’t be legal. And also, why are they not just coming to you [01:02:35] to get this treatment? Why don’t they just. You’re right next door. They’re your dentist. So it came [01:02:40] down to the fact that not every dentist offers this treatment. It’s a very specialist type of healthcare, [01:02:45] and it’s something that orthodontists are trained in. And [01:02:50] so it’s not it’s just not something that everyone does and it’s not something that actually promotes. So patients are finding [01:02:55] much easier just to go online and buy it there. So um, so I wanted to build something [01:03:00] that would help the average dentist deliver the best, the highest [01:03:05] quality orthodontic treatment with the greatest degree of certainty by working [01:03:10] with the top experts in the world. So basically building a collaboration platform [01:03:15] between clinician and clinician, which which really doesn’t exist [01:03:20] to try and simulate that environment of, I can just walk up to you in A and E and just [01:03:25] ask you, what do you reckon? I’ve not done many of these before or I’ve done loads of these before, [01:03:30] but how would you do this? Because I’m interested.

Sonia Szamocki: Because you’ve done, you’ve done. You might have a different opinion of how we [01:03:35] might attack this. That’s that’s basically what we’ve built. And fast forward to now, [01:03:40] it’s a, it’s a platform that, that dentists can join to deliver a line of care. But with that [01:03:45] model where you get paired up with a specialist orthodontist who’s in the UK, who’s a real expert, who’s going to work with you on [01:03:50] that case in whatever capacity you want, whether it’s just a [01:03:55] second pair of eyes or I actually really would like you to, to to explain to me exactly how [01:04:00] I’m supposed to do this based on your experience, so that we can together get the best outcome for the patient. [01:04:05] And that’s really that’s really the vision to try and help, um, reduce some of [01:04:10] the sense of, of fear and isolation when you’re a primary care provider alone [01:04:15] having to tackle things that you’ve not, that maybe you’re not the world [01:04:20] expert in, because how can you possibly be the world expert in everything as a clinician and where you’ve got a patient in front [01:04:25] of you, and because you’re trying to protect the patient clinician relationship [01:04:30] and the faith that they’ve placed in you, you don’t want to say to [01:04:35] them, I don’t know how to do this, to change that conversation into, I do know how to do [01:04:40] this because I’m actually going to work with an expert and we’re going to do it together. That’s basically it. I love it.

Rhona Eskander: Do you provide the aligners [01:04:45] or just. Yeah, yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: Are you still doing.

Payman Langroudi: That model that you were doing before where you explain explain [01:04:50] the model. This is very interesting.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah. So you know, obviously we want to be able to provide that service [01:04:55] for free as part of your, your aligners. Right. So in order to be able to [01:05:00] deliver this treatment, you have to not just have the treatment planning, but you also need to buy the [01:05:05] aligners. Otherwise you’re, you know, you’re it’s a disjointed. So what we what I spent [01:05:10] a lot of time doing is looking at the aligner manufacturing market and thinking and seeing that [01:05:15] actually all of the big brands are making in the same enormous factories in places in Europe [01:05:20] and in Mexico and in, um, in Egypt. And, and they were [01:05:25] using the same materials, the same 3D printing technology, the same technologies. This is all very, very [01:05:30] advanced stuff. That’s come a long way, but anyone can buy it. So peop dentists [01:05:35] were paying way over the odds for their aligners. I mean really the mark-ups on these things [01:05:40] were enormous. And we knew, we knew that if we went directly to them and essentially created a [01:05:45] marketplace where rather than the dentists having to beg for [01:05:50] the best prices, we would negotiate on their behalf and get the best deals on the day from [01:05:55] all the top manufacturers and make sure that they were being controlled for quality. And then because [01:06:00] there was so much margin in that, using some of that to pay to [01:06:05] get the specialist involved, and then you would be at a point where it’s still less expensive, [01:06:10] but also you’re getting. So they almost.

Payman Langroudi: Put it out to tender every, every case. And [01:06:15] then one of the manufacturers says okay I’ll take that one. Yeah. So it could be, you know, one case could be from [01:06:20] one factory and another case from a different factory based on who needs to work. Yeah, well.

Sonia Szamocki: It’s more about. So we [01:06:25] don’t let any factory on. It’s really tightly controlled so that everything is pre-screened. So we’ve probably [01:06:30] worked with the top ones all over the world. And we, we have very strict checks on [01:06:35] how many. There’s probably about 20 big ones in the world.

Payman Langroudi: That you.

Sonia Szamocki: Use that we have interviewed [01:06:40] and worked with. We only have about four at any one moment that meet the mark, [01:06:45] and the quality should be exactly the same across the board. So it’s more that we [01:06:50] can say, right, we have got a ton of dentists who all want the [01:06:55] maximum money off. You know, they want the lowest price they can get. So we’ll pool all of their orders, [01:07:00] and then we will be able to negotiate the best discounts for them Because as an individual dentist, [01:07:05] if you were to go to that manufacturer, they would never be able to give you good prices because you’re just one person. [01:07:10] Whereas if you lump everyone together, it’s a much more of a democratised experience. [01:07:15]

Payman Langroudi: The 70 people, how many of them are programmers? Developers? [01:07:20]

Sonia Szamocki: Uh, about a third. About a third.

Payman Langroudi: The rest of sales and.

Sonia Szamocki: Um, operations [01:07:25] and then commercial. Yeah. Yeah. So to build something like this, [01:07:30] I mean, the platform itself is an incredibly complex beast to, to be able to make that [01:07:35] feel like a very seamless experience. And I didn’t know an awful lot about [01:07:40] product or software development before I was in health tech. It’s it’s [01:07:45] an entire art and science in and of itself and something that [01:07:50] can, you know, it makes or breaks companies really, if you can get a product working really well, [01:07:55] it reduces the amount of people that you need. As you can probably imagine, if you can automate things, [01:08:00] then you’re you don’t need per per new customer. You need fewer, you know, incrementally [01:08:05] fewer people. So, um, that’s a that’s a big part of it is trying [01:08:10] to to get that right. And, you know, that’s a challenge when you’re when you’re working with that many [01:08:15] people, you’re trying to get everyone to go as fast as they possibly can and not compromise [01:08:20] on quality, that’s, that’s a, that’s a really difficult [01:08:25] that’s a difficult thing of this job. That might be the.

Payman Langroudi: Peculiarity of health tech, right? [01:08:30] Yeah. Whereas a normal tech that can just go fast, break things and it’s not the end of the world if there’s a mistake. [01:08:35]

Sonia Szamocki: Exactly right.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, tech and health tech, you’re not going to lose [01:08:40] lives on me.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re not just tripping.

Rhona Eskander: Something reminds me of that girl. What’s the one that [01:08:45] was like on the cover of Forbes? And then they all found out she was a massive con with her blood. Yeah, yeah. Elizabeth Holmes, that’s [01:08:50] it, that’s it.

Sonia Szamocki: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: What a story.

Rhona Eskander: You know what, Elizabeth Holmes?

Payman Langroudi: No, this.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Of [01:08:55] course.

Rhona Eskander: Incredible, incredible. I knew she was a powerhouse. You know where on my [01:09:00] movies. Not Dental.

[TRANSITION]: Leaders, remember? Yeah. So go on. Yeah. Go [01:09:05] ahead.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. So now going forward. Yeah. Having to raise money [01:09:10] now are you having to like I know for instance I [01:09:15] is the sort of the, the the buzzword. Yeah. Are you almost having to include [01:09:20] I to be taken seriously by the investor?

Sonia Szamocki: It’s a good question. [01:09:25] Um, I think that you’d be silly not to be using AI. We use AI. [01:09:30] Yeah. I think if you’re going to use it as a marketing tactic, I think you’ve got to [01:09:35] be able to stand behind what you say, because eventually people are going to start to call, [01:09:40] you know, what you know.

Payman Langroudi: Of cases of people who are doing that.

Sonia Szamocki: Of course. Of course. [01:09:45] I mean, because all of these tools are publicly available now. You [01:09:50] know, anyone can log into Gpt4 four and have a play. I know of lots of companies [01:09:55] that are just a layer on top of GPT four. Now. That doesn’t mean it’s not a valuable thing to do, but it means you haven’t [01:10:00] built fundamentally the AI infrastructure that’s driving [01:10:05] this. So yeah. Um, but do you need to be talking about, I mean, yeah, you [01:10:10] you probably it probably doesn’t hurt to have an AI story if you’re raising money now, [01:10:15] but it’s already very saturated. It’s already very saturated. An enormous [01:10:20] amount of money has already been deployed into I, and now they have to see whether they can grow into [01:10:25] those valuations. So I’d say it’s I’d actually say you maybe almost a little bit [01:10:30] too late now to catch the early wave, did I? Yeah, I think so. Yeah I think [01:10:35] so.

Payman Langroudi: But what about so what about the business I mean where do you see it going? And I mean [01:10:40] where do you see yourself in the business going?

Sonia Szamocki: So this for me, this [01:10:45] was always about rolling out this model into lots of areas.

Payman Langroudi: Not just ortho. [01:10:50]

Sonia Szamocki: Not just ortho. This is about building a way of working where a clinician [01:10:55] can work with another clinician, and they can share knowledge and expertise so that that [01:11:00] clinician who has an awful lot of knowledge and a connection [01:11:05] with that patient can do more. That’s that’s always been the vision.

Rhona Eskander: So and beyond dentistry or you want [01:11:10] to stick to dentistry.

Sonia Szamocki: I think dentistry at the moment because I think there’s just [01:11:15] so much more that we can do to expand this way of working. [01:11:20] And then, yeah, going going forward, I mean, there’s so many there’s so many use cases where you [01:11:25] could probably imagine that it would be quite nice for you to, as a patient, to know that your doctor is [01:11:30] in touch with the world expert on insert thing here.

Payman Langroudi: That’s where that the CEO of [01:11:35] Pearl I and and I was asking him when why why Dental. Yeah. [01:11:40] Because he had a he had an AI company that was looking at, uh, logos. [01:11:45] Um, and he turned that into looking at x rays. And I said, why Dental? [01:11:50] And he said, he said that then dentists are much earlier [01:11:55] adopters of new technology.

Sonia Szamocki: Absolutely agree with.

[TRANSITION]: That. Doctors agree.

Rhona Eskander: But also the.

[TRANSITION]: The other thing is that. [01:12:00]

Payman Langroudi: Businesses are.

[TRANSITION]: You know, you can decide when.

Rhona Eskander: You when you’re in what I feel like the matrix of [01:12:05] the hospital life, they make you feel like it’s impossible to leave. And it’s like my specialist friends were the ones [01:12:10] that like, really jaded and a little bit more guarded about trying new things. And also, like my dad, I [01:12:15] told you, you heard his story. He was so desperate to leave the NHS, and he started to try to think about [01:12:20] making, like, a shampoo business or like a soup business. And, you know, he met this [01:12:25] business consultant. He was like, why wouldn’t you be a private doctor? Because my dad thought it was so impossible to become a private doctor [01:12:30] because that’s what he was brainwashed to believe. Like, you are in the system and you [01:12:35] cannot leave the system basically, unless you do something radically different. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:12:40] sunny looks right now.

[TRANSITION]: Then just a very.

Sonia Szamocki: Much more open to more.

[TRANSITION]: Open to new ideas.

Sonia Szamocki: They’re [01:12:45] curious. Yeah. I think there’s there’s a lot to be said for that.

Rhona Eskander: So, Sonia, [01:12:50] what’s your words of wisdom for young [01:12:55] female entrepreneurs that want to start something [01:13:00] that might be different to what they’re used to, i.e. medicine, [01:13:05] dentistry or any vocation. And they don’t even know where to start. But they know that they desperately want to leave [01:13:10] their profession. What would be your words of advice?

Sonia Szamocki: The first thing I would say [01:13:15] is speak to people who have done it. Yeah, the scariest thing, the crossing [01:13:20] the chasm is the the leap into the unknown.

[TRANSITION]: Feels.

Sonia Szamocki: So [01:13:25] insurmountable that it’s almost always safer to just stay every time you sort [01:13:30] of try and drift and you sort of look at the alternatives, you’ll always be pulled back. Because [01:13:35] especially if you’re in dentistry, you haven’t got, you [01:13:40] know, you’re making quite a good salary, you’re making a decent amount of money, and you’re an expert [01:13:45] at that. So every time you’re looking to move out, you’re always going to be pulled back in [01:13:50] into the comfort zone. So speaking to people and asking them how they how [01:13:55] they did it will help you feel comfortable in discomfort is probably the first [01:14:00] thing. The second thing I would say is just do one small thing. It doesn’t have to be the whole hog [01:14:05] straight away. You don’t have to. If you’re interested in selling a business, it doesn’t have to be [01:14:10] a multi-billion dollar business. I set up a small business, and then I set up in my head [01:14:15] and tried to set up five six other businesses that didn’t work. And and eventually you come [01:14:20] upon something that does work. The first step is the biggest step. It’s the most important step. And from there [01:14:25] you will your world will be so much more. You will open up the world so much more to yourself. [01:14:30] So don’t try and go the whole hog straight away. Just take the first step and [01:14:35] speak to people. Those are probably.

[TRANSITION]: My.

Sonia Szamocki: First words.

[TRANSITION]: To many.

Payman Langroudi: More dentists [01:14:40] who now have business ideas?

[TRANSITION]: That’s great.

Rhona Eskander: When I went on Dragons Den, everyone was like, [01:14:45] oh my God, amazing. And now you’ve got dentists going on like The Apprentice. And I think it’s great. I think it’s amazing. [01:14:50]

Payman Langroudi: But I get the question all the time, right? What should I do? How should I? And my general advice [01:14:55] to them is incubator. Find an incubator. Because that that will I mean, in a way your [01:15:00] boss and consulting days were your incubator, right? To understand what goes on [01:15:05] in business. Yeah, but that’ll kind of tell you if you’re if it’s right or wrong or if you’re right or wrong. [01:15:10] Yeah.

Sonia Szamocki: You can always go back. Especially if you’re in industry. You can always go back.

[TRANSITION]: That’s do you know what I would say? [01:15:15]

Rhona Eskander: Always try to make the mistakes of the changes before you feel that you’ve got too many commitments. Because [01:15:20] if you’re 50 and suddenly we discuss this last week, then you’ve got a mortgage, two kids [01:15:25] and a wife that’s a full time housewife or something like that. And then you’re like, but I can’t physically do it. Yeah. [01:15:30] So I think, like, better make the mistakes younger and you can always pick yourself up. And like [01:15:35] you said, you don’t lose or you don’t win or fail, you win [01:15:40] or you learn because every failure has an opportunity for learning. And I think that’s about changing [01:15:45] and reframing the narrative. Yeah. Well, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this. It’s [01:15:50] been an incredible chat. I’m so honoured to have a amazing female, um, you know, who’s an [01:15:55] absolute boss woman and doing incredible things in the world. So thank you so much for joining us. And if people want to [01:16:00] find your platform, could you direct them? Yes.

Sonia Szamocki: It’s W32 Co.com. Um, [01:16:05] or follow us on the Instagram. And yeah, if anyone does want to [01:16:10] learn about life after healthcare and wants a bit of advice, I’m on LinkedIn. I’m always happy to help. [01:16:15]

Rhona Eskander: Okay, perfect. Thank you so much.

[TRANSITION]: For having me.