Dr Tara recounts her journey from a conservative upbringing to becoming a leading voice in sexual education and empowerment.
The professor and sex expert shares her personal experiences with marriage, divorce, and finding a fulfilling relationship, while also delving into topics such as sexual mindfulness, the impact of cultural norms on relationships, and the complexities of infidelity.
Enjoy!
In This Episode
00:02:00 – Background
00:04:35 – Religion, culture and sexuality
00:08:35 – Body neutrality and body image
00:16:50 – Academia
00:20:20 – Sexual chemistry
00:26:25 – Divorce and healing
00:31:30 – Relationships and monogamy
00:41:00 – Sexual mindfulness
00:45:45 – Pornography and ethics
00:52:50 – Toxic masculinity
00:57:20 – Celebs Go Dating
01:06:35 – Infidelity
01:25:50 – Future plans
About Dr Tara
Dr. Tara is a tenured professor at California State University Fullerton, where she teaches relational and sexual communication and quantitative research. She is also a researcher and appears as a sex expert on the TV show Celebs Go Dating. Dr Tara is also the host of the Luvbites by Dr Tara Podcast.
Dr. Tara: I hop on Tinder, and literally the first person I found I got married to him. Yeah. Wow. I [00:00:05] wouldn’t say it was a mistake because I learned a lot from it, but definitely something that I didn’t take the time. [00:00:10] I ignored all the red flags, the red flags, and to be honest, he’s a great guy, [00:00:15] just not a great guy for me. We weren’t compatible, but I ignored everything [00:00:20] because he was so great on paper. He was handsome, tall, wealthy, and [00:00:25] he was really into me. That’s it. Checked all the boxes. Let’s get married. We got married in six months. [00:00:30]
Rhona Eskander: Where did it start to go wrong?
Dr. Tara: After a year of being married, I had this sense of, like, [00:00:35] guilt that this is not the person for me.
Rhona Eskander: Why?
[VOICE]: This [00:00:45] is mind movers [00:00:50] moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation [00:00:55] for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:01:00] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.
Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:01:05] everyone! Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers and I am so excited [00:01:10] to have the incredible Doctor Tara on with us today. Tara [00:01:15] is actually the presenter on Celebs Go Dating. She is here all the way from LA [00:01:20] and she is making waves. And that’s not just on national television, but also with what she’s [00:01:25] doing within the sphere of social media. She’s been navigating love and sex life, particularly [00:01:30] around Gen Z, having open conversations that we’ve never had before. Doctor Tara is [00:01:35] also a professor? Yes, a professor at a university in the [00:01:40] States, and she is an expert in her own right. And I’m just too [00:01:45] excited to have this conversation with her. So welcome, Doctor Tara.
Dr. Tara: I’m excited to be here.
Rhona Eskander: It is so [00:01:50] wonderful to have you here. So I have so many questions. Right. And the first question is where I like to start [00:01:55] from the beginning. How did you end up becoming a sex expert?
Dr. Tara: Short. Short [00:02:00] answer or long answer?
Rhona Eskander: Give us the long answer because we’re going to be here for a while.
Dr. Tara: Yeah, [00:02:05] I mean, I love telling this story because then people can really understand where I come from. And, you [00:02:10] know, all of the the cumulative experiences that I’ve had in life that are very different. [00:02:15] Yeah. So I actually I’m like you said, my last name is really long. I [00:02:20] tried porn.
Rhona Eskander: Has porn on the end.
Dr. Tara: Porn porn at the end. [00:02:25] Because in Thai culture, in Thai language, porn means a blessing.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. [00:02:30] There we go. Porn means a blessing in Thai culture.
Dr. Tara: I usually say that in the university class that I teach [00:02:35] and I usually have like a boy student says it’s a blessing for me too.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I [00:02:40] love that so much.
Dr. Tara: I’m like, shut up. But I’m originally from Thailand. [00:02:45] I grew up very religious Buddhist in Bangkok with my [00:02:50] very loving parents. I have an older sister, but with within this [00:02:55] very loving context. There’s still so much repression around being [00:03:00] a girl and around, um, sexuality, sexuality [00:03:05] and being interested in dating and sex and naked bodies [00:03:10] and body parts and whatnot. So I went to an all girls Catholic school from [00:03:15] like the very beginning of time, like from first grade, uh, up [00:03:20] until I finished middle school. And in all girls Catholic [00:03:25] school, you learn a lot of these, um, subliminal, subliminal [00:03:30] messages about your body as a girl. Right. So our uniforms have [00:03:35] to, like, cover our wrists and our knees because knees are sexy, and [00:03:40] you don’t want to be provoking men. So it’s these little things that I [00:03:45] grew up with that really cemented this idea that when you’re a girl. [00:03:50] Well, number one, you are inferior to men. Number two, you have to cover [00:03:55] yourself always because you don’t want to be provoking them. And number [00:04:00] three, you should be. You should not be interested in anything related [00:04:05] to sexuality because that’s that’s a sin and that it’s [00:04:10] related to being a bad woman. You want to be a good woman. You want to be a wife [00:04:15] material woman. So these were cemented to me since a young age, and I grew [00:04:20] up on those messages. I grew up believing that that’s true. So I was always striving [00:04:25] for just trying to be the best I can be a good girl in [00:04:30] that context.
Rhona Eskander: So I had to interrupt you there because I actually have [00:04:35] a very similar upbringing. So I’m. I went to a Catholic school. Oh my God. [00:04:40] My parents are Middle Eastern, and there was so much Christian guilt [00:04:45] growing up, and it actually got so bad at one point in my life that my dad’s family kind of cut me and [00:04:50] my sister out, blamed my mother because we didn’t marry into, like the church community [00:04:55] and we didn’t get like, I just got married and my sister, um, still [00:05:00] isn’t. And we lived with partners out of wedlock. And I’m actually now [00:05:05] trying to process the Christian guilt that I grew up with because [00:05:10] everything that I did also was this subliminal message that you are submissive [00:05:15] to a man, and if you tempt a man, it is your fault. But you also have to please a man at the same time. [00:05:20] And then all this stuff has made me really think about the patriarchy and what [00:05:25] a woman’s role is, and the lie that women get uglier and less sexy in their [00:05:30] 30s and 40s where I’m like, well, hang on. Actually, I feel hotter and sexier now than I [00:05:35] did in my 20s, so that’s a lie, you know? So that’s a lie. So yeah, I just had [00:05:40] to kind of share that. I really resonate with. What was going on in your childhood.
Dr. Tara: I love that, I [00:05:45] love that because, you know, I can feel your energy when you enter the room. And I’m like, [00:05:50] wow, this.
[TRANSITION]: Is.
Dr. Tara: This is a confident woman who has worked on herself and is [00:05:55] working on herself. And I’m the same way, right? Like, you never stop learning and growing and and and [00:06:00] working on yourself. And I love that. Thanks for sharing.
Rhona Eskander: No thank you. And so continue going [00:06:05] on. Yeah.
Dr. Tara: So then I was able to leave [00:06:10] Thailand. Then I went to school in Finland and that was the very first time I encountered, [00:06:15] um, I guess more of a neutral, neutral [00:06:20] ground between men and women, boys and girls, because their culture is [00:06:25] very egalitarian, very like equality based, like gender equality, and also very [00:06:30] body neutral, because one of the main practices in Finland [00:06:35] is using the saunas and they all get naked, completely [00:06:40] naked to go into the saunas. They don’t do like, you know, the towel or [00:06:45] the bathing suit. Yeah, just completely naked and going to a sauna and no one looks [00:06:50] at each other because it’s just so freaking common. Like, why would you look at anyone, stare at anyone [00:06:55] or, like, sexualise anyone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if you are young and you’re in the sauna [00:07:00] with, like, your grandparents, then it’s like it doesn’t mean anything. Yeah. And when I [00:07:05] was there, that is the biggest thing I discovered is like, wow, I don’t have to feel ashamed [00:07:10] of my body when I’m naked or I have to cover myself, or that I’m [00:07:15] sexualised in some way. It’s just a body. Yeah, and I love body [00:07:20] neutrality even now. Yeah, that is how I live my life, because I appreciate [00:07:25] body positivity. Yeah. However, not every day you’re gonna feel like Beyoncé. [00:07:30] Yeah. Exactly right. I don’t wake up feeling flawless sometimes, you [00:07:35] know? So I really love body.
Rhona Eskander: Even Beyonce feels like Beyonce every day.
Dr. Tara: Exactly. So I really love [00:07:40] body neutrality and just being grateful for my body for its functions. So [00:07:45] that’s kind of my first like, wow, there’s different thoughts in the world. So [00:07:50] experiencing thought, diversity, something else that’s just not where I’m [00:07:55] from. Is that something you had as well? Like when you get older.
Rhona Eskander: To be to be honest with you, [00:08:00] I think it’s something that I still unfortunately live with. I think that what happened was, is [00:08:05] that being of a middle eastern family, like I come from a lot of generational [00:08:10] trauma. My grandmother was Miss Universe. My mother, my mother was [00:08:15] a model. My grandmother was a narcissist. So my mother suffered a lot from neglect and not feeling good [00:08:20] enough. She went on to be a model, but definitely, I think up until really the Kim Kardashian [00:08:25] era Middle Eastern women were also put under a lot of pressure to look [00:08:30] a certain way. So for example, yeah, I look.
Dr. Tara: Really skinny or. [00:08:35]
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, so like I naturally genetically have always had bigger hips, bigger bum, [00:08:40] thicker thighs, all that stuff, you know? And I went to university and I got offered [00:08:45] to do some modelling and I did some casting and I was surrounded by the archetypal Kate Moss [00:08:50] type of girl. That was the beauty standards of the 90s. And, you know, [00:08:55] there were comments that you should lose weight or I’d see the girls pinching their thighs and I’d never really been introduced. [00:09:00] I mean, my parents were also like, oh, in a loving way, you know, like lose a little bit [00:09:05] of weight here and there. But that’s because of their own conditioning, right?
Dr. Tara: Same, same as my mom.
Rhona Eskander: So I [00:09:10] had to shrink myself. And I ended up having an eating disorder in my 20s and [00:09:15] restrictive eating. And I think at the time I was like, I’m just healthy. And unfortunately, I [00:09:20] was given this feedback loop where the more weight I lost, the more praise I’d get.
Dr. Tara: And [00:09:25] I think, oh, like, you’re so skinny. You look so.
Rhona Eskander: Good. Correct, correct. And then that [00:09:30] that for me, made me feel a lot of shame around being naked, because number one, [00:09:35] I felt like my body didn’t look like the other people around me. You know, the 90s, like body dysmorphia. [00:09:40] Yeah. And I think that also there was shame, right? Because for me, Imagine [00:09:45] this I actually did not believe in sex before marriage, because that was what [00:09:50] was taught to me within the realms of Christianity. And I remember my dad, he’s a gynaecologist. [00:09:55] I mean, things have changed. But he sat me down in this pub and he was like, I’m going to show you, [00:10:00] um, how babies are made and what happens here. And he’s like in a pub, you know, imagine he [00:10:05] told me like, like with a diagram. And then he turned around and he said, men like women [00:10:10] that are virgins. Right. And I remember I was like 12.
Dr. Tara: So even that that’s misogynistic.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:10:15] And like, but you know, like and the thing is now it’s like I’m like, I mean, I ended up asking my dad to help me, like with the pill and [00:10:20] stuff when I was like 25. But the point is, and we have an open relationship. And I think he [00:10:25] also understood that that conditioning wasn’t realistic for like the time we were living in. But [00:10:30] that guilt meant for me that I only saw sex as something [00:10:35] that was for a man. So if a man proves to you that he wants to be in a [00:10:40] committed relationship with you or wants to marry you, your gift to him then? Is sex. That [00:10:45] is the psychology I grew up with. Do you see what I mean? Right. So there was nothing about embracing [00:10:50] your own body, understanding your own body, pleasuring your own body. That stuff never [00:10:55] happened for me during the teens and the 20s.
Dr. Tara: Oh, gosh. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: So that’s [00:11:00] what happened, like in answer to your question. But yeah.
Dr. Tara: Yeah. No, you know, I have similar [00:11:05] experience with body dysmorphia and like not loving [00:11:10] my body, especially in the era, I assume we’re the same age because Kate [00:11:15] Moss was also kind of our, you know, um, the archetype of beauty. Yeah. [00:11:20] That’s the goal. Yeah, right. Like, she’s the it girl. She’s cool, she’s [00:11:25] pretty. You want to be like her. And interestingly, on Celebs Go Dating last series, we [00:11:30] had Lottie Moss on the show, Kate’s little sister, and she [00:11:35] said similar things of like, you know, I was comparing myself to her and like, you know, [00:11:40] I’m I have, you know, I don’t remember exactly what she said, but along the line of my body [00:11:45] is different. How we feel? Yeah. It’s like, no, we’re not Kate Moss. Yeah. Um, which [00:11:50] was so interesting how that has affected millions and millions of girls around the world, because [00:11:55] at that point you were here in England, I was in Thailand. But we’re all affected [00:12:00] by that body. How insane is that? I think, though.
Rhona Eskander: That’s the difficulty. I mean, we’ll go on to [00:12:05] the social media thing because I don’t want to deter too much from it. But if you really think about it, [00:12:10] the problem is with trends is that we are so heavily invest in what the trends [00:12:15] say, and it’s so transient, because when Kim Kardashian came along, everyone [00:12:20] suddenly was like, I really like your. But I’m like, I’ve been told my whole life, my butt’s too big. And then my mom’s [00:12:25] generation would still be like, your butt’s too big. But then the generation that were like, no, Kim K has come along. She’s [00:12:30] saying, big butts are cool. I’m like, okay, like, now everyone wants my butt. Exactly. So what I’m trying to say is, like, it changes [00:12:35] all the time. Like now. Like, even for men. Like, I feel sorry for men, like, all the time. We [00:12:40] talk about the patriarchy and misogyny, but to be honest, even for men, the immense amount of body [00:12:45] image pressure on a man. Yeah. You know, like even think about the finance song six foot five [00:12:50] Blue Eyes, you know what I mean? Like, now.
Dr. Tara: That’s whatever you are, like, short and don’t.
Rhona Eskander: Make good money. Yeah. The thing [00:12:55] is, is like we also have. But it comes and goes, but then someone comes along, [00:13:00] I don’t know Tom Holland who’s like, not six foot five and Blue Eyes and then everyone’s like, oh no, actually, like that’s [00:13:05] the thing to follow. So I always say, like, it’s so easy to get drawn into the kind [00:13:10] of body image trends. And of course we’re going to go into it. But like loving your body is really important. But I’d love to understand [00:13:15] how the sauna experience kind of helped you further. So yeah. So tell me how it changed your perception. [00:13:20]
Dr. Tara: Basically, that’s the start of my journey of like discovering [00:13:25] the differences in thoughts and ideas and how I [00:13:30] can form my own identity. Um, from then on, I went to [00:13:35] university, I moved to Los Angeles, went to university. Universities. I got my master’s. And [00:13:40] what.
Rhona Eskander: Was your master’s.
Dr. Tara: In? My master’s in human communication, but particularly looking at interpersonal [00:13:45] interaction and cross-cultural interaction. So I was always fascinated of people of different [00:13:50] cultures interacting, because I know that the world is becoming more and more global. And how [00:13:55] can we understand all of these interpersonal conflicts people have from different [00:14:00] people, from different cultures? But I was also studying different relationship aspects. I was studying [00:14:05] the very first paper I published as an academic was when I was a master’s student, [00:14:10] and I published an article on a study that I did on long term long distance [00:14:15] relationships, because I was then in a long distance relationship, and I wanted to research [00:14:20] effective strategies in long distance relationships. So I was always researching and studying [00:14:25] romantic relationships, but in my PhD. So I moved to [00:14:30] Phoenix and I moved to Arizona State University.
Rhona Eskander: Well, your parents okay with [00:14:35] all this studying, like understanding that you were really exploring the notions of like [00:14:40] the human body and relationships. I mean, considering the background that you came from, what you told me, like, how were [00:14:45] they? Were they receptive to the things that you were studying?
Dr. Tara: Not at the beginning. Not at the beginning. I think they, [00:14:50] for the lack of a better word, I think they wish I was more serious. Yeah. In their standards. [00:14:55] Right. Like they feel like what I was studying wasn’t that serious.
Rhona Eskander: Typical immigrant [00:15:00] mindset. Be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer.
Dr. Tara: Right, exactly. Like, why don’t you study medicine? Yeah, [00:15:05] medicine. Or like, even researching something like, you know, public policy or, you know, [00:15:10] why are you studying relationships? But I told them long term study, longitudinal [00:15:15] study by Harvard found the most important thing in life is relationships. Yeah, not [00:15:20] your career, not money. It’s good to have resources. Of course, it makes you get all the conveniences. [00:15:25] But relationships is the most important thing in life, so why wouldn’t I study it? But [00:15:30] I went to get my PhD the last year of my PhD. It was on a job market, [00:15:35] and that was really like just a few jobs at the same at that time for a tenure track professor job. [00:15:40] I’ve at that point, I’ve always known for the last like five years that I would become a professor [00:15:45] because in my back in my master’s degree, my advisor was telling me, like, Tara, for [00:15:50] someone who doesn’t even speak English as her first language, you are really good teacher. Because back in the [00:15:55] master’s degree, I was already as like teach as an instructor, like a Ta. Um, so [00:16:00] in the last year of my PhD, I basically applied for [00:16:05] these like few jobs that existed during that time. And I basically got all the jobs [00:16:10] I got every job. So then it was about where do I want to live? Mhm. I wanted [00:16:15] to live in California. I wanted the sunlight, I wanted to be actively dating and you know [00:16:20] back in the scene.
Rhona Eskander: So how old were you at that point.
Dr. Tara: 27. Okay so [00:16:25] I finished, I finished early, um, got my PhD, moved to LA and then started [00:16:30] teaching at Cal State University.
Rhona Eskander: Were you still in this long distance relationship at this point?
Dr. Tara: No. It was that was done [00:16:35] a long time ago because because I was reading my paper, I’m like, okay, I’m not doing three [00:16:40] of these five things. So obviously this is not working. Um, but at this [00:16:45] point I was single, moved to LA wanting to be, you know, um, [00:16:50] wanting to be actively dating and find my person. And at the time, I didn’t know why I was [00:16:55] rushing so hard. But I know why. Tell me, because I now know why.
Rhona Eskander: I [00:17:00] think I can resonate with that. I mean, I feel like the universe definitely put you in my path because I’ve been on [00:17:05] my own healing journey. I, um, I was conditioned by [00:17:10] my parents with love, who have been married and happily married and have loads of sex, by the way, for the last 35 [00:17:15] years. Um, and I was conditioned to believe that as a woman. Well, [00:17:20] number one, from a gynaecology point of view, like optimal to have kids kind of pre 30. Yeah. So [00:17:25] the biological clock and number two, my dad was like you know and like some people might think like he didn’t say [00:17:30] this verbatim but it’s never verbatim. It’s never verbatim. But like, you know, like men [00:17:35] do desire a woman in their 20s. You know, so I think that, like. So I [00:17:40] went to university. There was all the Christian guilt. Um, I met my first boyfriend when I was 22. [00:17:45] Um, he was my first love. The person I lost my virginity to. And [00:17:50] then I was like, we’re gonna get married. Like, obviously, that’s the next step. Now, conditioning from Disney [00:17:55] and films like The Notebook and whatever. So I thought, this is how it happens. [00:18:00] You focus on your studies, you go to university, you go into a room and a man [00:18:05] picks you. You don’t even need to do anything. You need to just be.
Dr. Tara: A man picks.
Rhona Eskander: You and he picks you, and then he picks you and everything [00:18:10] else unfolds like the Prince Charming. And I think that is such a sin. You have children, you know. I’m [00:18:15] happy now that we’ve got Moana. And she, like, owned her own island. And like, I think like Princess Elsa or whatever it [00:18:20] is. Because back then, the thing is, again, what we grew up with was being a princess [00:18:25] that is chosen by a prince or rescued by a prince. So when I broke up with [00:18:30] my boyfriend when I was 27. He broke up with me out of the blue. Everyone around me was [00:18:35] getting married. So yeah, my friends were all getting married to who they met in university. Now, once [00:18:40] that happened in my mind, instead of focusing on healing and discovering [00:18:45] who I was, I was like, I have three years to find a husband. That is my timeline [00:18:50] now. I have three years. Don’t grieve. Don’t be upset. But what you’ve got to do [00:18:55] is, is that you’ve got to understand that this is what you’ve got now. I [00:19:00] think that was the biggest mistake that I ever made in my entire life. Because as we [00:19:05] know, happiness is about living in the present. And women [00:19:10] will always struggle more than men because of the biological clock. Yes, we cannot live in the present. [00:19:15] If we want to have children. We cannot just date people and see how it goes without intentionality, [00:19:20] because it’s just more difficult. And I think that is the reality. So for me, [00:19:25] and I don’t know if it was the same for you, I felt the 30 clock pressure. That was what happened to me.
Dr. Tara: That’s [00:19:30] exactly the same as my experience. Like, it’s almost like we’re the same person. Yeah, [00:19:35] literally. I mean, we got different types of doctorates, but, like. Yeah, it’s [00:19:40] the same. Exactly. Yeah. Like same. Yeah. So, you know, my parents giving me those subliminal messages [00:19:45] about like, oh, you know, you’re in your late 20s. We just want to make sure someone takes care of you. [00:19:50] That vibe. And then also all the movies and then also just myself [00:19:55] and I have. And this is, like, very personal, but I’ve always struggled with perfectionism. [00:20:00] Me too. Of course. Just want to come off as perfect. Yeah. Want to come off as, like, I got [00:20:05] my life together. Yeah, yeah. Like I’m doing well. Got my life together. And not really perfect [00:20:10] on the inside, but perfect on the outside. Right. So, like, just like you. I didn’t spend time healing [00:20:15] myself. I spent time looking for a husband.
Rhona Eskander: Husband? Shopping, I call it. It was.
Dr. Tara: Fast. You know, [00:20:20] at that point, I’m like, okay, I’m successful. Like, I’m now a tenure track professor. Um, [00:20:25] I have I love, love my job. I have amazing friends. I [00:20:30] have an amazing apartment. This is the missing puzzle. Yeah. What’s next? Right. I hop on [00:20:35] Tinder and literally found the first person I found. I got married to him. [00:20:40] Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: Wow. Yeah.
Dr. Tara: It was. I wouldn’t say it was a mistake [00:20:45] because I learned a lot from it, but definitely something that, um, is a huge [00:20:50] lesson in my life is I didn’t take the time. I ignored all the red flags, the red [00:20:55] flags. And to be honest, he’s a great guy. Just not a great guy for me. [00:21:00] We weren’t compatible, but I ignored everything because he was [00:21:05] so great on paper. Um, he was handsome, tall, [00:21:10] wealthy. He’s a Buddhist, which you don’t find a lot of that in LA. [00:21:15] Um, and he was really into me. So that’s it. Checked [00:21:20] all the boxes. Let’s get married. We got married in six months.
Rhona Eskander: After meeting each other. Yeah. And [00:21:25] then where did it start to go wrong?
Dr. Tara: You know, after, [00:21:30] I would say after a year of being married, I had this sense [00:21:35] of like guilt that this [00:21:40] is not the person for me. Why? Um, two things. First, [00:21:45] we don’t have we didn’t have any chemistry like that. [00:21:50] Sexual connection. The tension that you get with a person [00:21:55] that you’re attracted to. I didn’t have any of that with him. And now, not even [00:22:00] in the beginning. It just sounds so mean.
Rhona Eskander: Not even in the beginning.
Dr. Tara: No, but I ignored it [00:22:05] because he’s the perfect person on paper to get married to. He’s going to be [00:22:10] a good father. He’s going to be a good life partner. Fuck sexual connection. We don’t need that. Like, [00:22:15] let’s just get on with it. Have a perfect life. Come on, Tara, you can do this. So [00:22:20] that was like. That was the.
Rhona Eskander: What was the second thing you said? Two things.
Dr. Tara: Yeah. So [00:22:25] that was the first thing. The second thing was, you know, he had a lot of trauma that was [00:22:30] unprocessed as well from his life. He had a very difficult life with his family. [00:22:35] So for me, you can’t have like two people that haven’t worked [00:22:40] on themselves, like be together. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: And did he act out? [00:22:45]
Dr. Tara: He had a lot of micro behavioural things that I noticed [00:22:50] that was like, oh, that’s like it’s because of that. Because even when I suggest [00:22:55] therapy, he’s like, oh no, I don’t need that. I even bought him packages to go to therapy. [00:23:00] I bought him like a five package, like he didn’t go. He refused to go. He believed he was healed [00:23:05] from all these, like, you know, psychedelics and all these journeys. He goes on. [00:23:10] But it doesn’t matter unless you like, confront it yourself anyways. So that was hard. [00:23:15] That was a huge barrier. But also just the fact that we didn’t have chemistry was [00:23:20] really hard because how can you build like you? I’m. [00:23:25] So there’s two camps when it comes to sexual attraction. There’s the camp of [00:23:30] you either have it or you don’t. But yes, like things like it’s ebbs and flow, [00:23:35] right? Like things come and go, but you have to have it from the beginning in order to, like, build on it and maintain [00:23:40] it. There’s another camp of people, of scholars who’s like, no, no, no, no, you [00:23:45] they’re more logical. Like, you assess the relationship based on viability [00:23:50] and then sexual connection is just something that you can develop later [00:23:55] on in life or whatever later on in a relationship. And I used to be in that camp. Right. Very [00:24:00] logical data, like find a person that checks the box and, you know, matches the papers. [00:24:05] And I ignored this part. But however, after studying sexual [00:24:10] connection and sexual satisfaction for now a long time, I learned that honestly, [00:24:15] the camp of like you, you need to have it from the beginning makes way [00:24:20] more sense, especially if you are someone that [00:24:25] values sexual connection. Not everyone values sexual connection and that is completely fine. [00:24:30] Um, but if you value sexual connection, you should be in the camp [00:24:35] of whether you have it or you don’t.
Rhona Eskander: But my question for you is this is that we often know [00:24:40] that those that have that insane sexual chemistry from the beginning. Yeah, the [00:24:45] insane sexual chemistry from the beginning when you’re like, I want to rip each other’s clothes off. And then we know that that [00:24:50] ends as quickly as it starts sometimes for people, because that is, it’s so [00:24:55] solely based on that and the fireworks. And then when real life settles in, like [00:25:00] you live with each other, there’s problems, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever that actually that becomes [00:25:05] less important because other aspects of that human being don’t [00:25:10] show up in the way that you need them to.
Dr. Tara: Exactly, exactly. So there is two different [00:25:15] types of sexual connection, right? There’s like healthy sexual connection that [00:25:20] actually propels your life makes you achieve more things. I would say that’s what I have now [00:25:25] with my now husband, is our relationship. And our sexuality [00:25:30] really propels like the relationship, my career, we both are more successful. We make more [00:25:35] money, we have more friends because of our sexuality. Yeah, and it’s a huge [00:25:40] claim. However, uh, when I was in that previous marriage, I was very. I had a very dull [00:25:45] life. Um, even though we were travelling the world and, you know, having a house [00:25:50] like this beachfront property, it doesn’t matter because we just didn’t have that connection [00:25:55] and passion. There’s people who says like, oh, you know, you just stick it out. Like, you know, you [00:26:00] get everything else. Like you get gifts, you get trips, like, why not? I’m like, but that’s not what I [00:26:05] care about, isn’t it? Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: So. So when did it come to an end for you?
Dr. Tara: Um, just [00:26:10] a couple of years in. I couldn’t. I couldn’t get a divorce, honestly, because he was struggling [00:26:15] so much, like, you know, there’s things that happened with his mom. Um, there’s things [00:26:20] that happened with his brothers. Like if I left at the time, I would be, like a big bitch. So [00:26:25] I stayed, I stayed, and I was the best wife possible. And when [00:26:30] it was time, I was, I was like, listen, I can’t do this. So do you have [00:26:35] children? No. So I asked for a divorce. It was really, really hard. Like, because [00:26:40] after that day, like I would say at least two weeks straight, I wake up crying every morning. And [00:26:45] that is a misconception that a lot of people have, is that the person asking for a divorce is [00:26:50] like just a big arsehole, and they don’t give a shit. That’s not true. A lot of us, I know a lot of [00:26:55] people that were the people asking for a divorce really struggle afterwards, and I [00:27:00] did 100%. Um, so.
Rhona Eskander: How did he react?
Dr. Tara: He [00:27:05] was shocked. Yeah, he was shocked. But that just goes to show, like, that’s how well [00:27:10] I played the part, how well I was supportive and how well I played the part. [00:27:15] He had no idea I was unhappy.
Rhona Eskander: And then how did your [00:27:20] healing journey start? And at this point of your career. Because obviously I understand. Were you already [00:27:25] a sex expert within your academia or not at this point?
Dr. Tara: So at [00:27:30] that time I already started like researching and teaching this class. And this will come into all [00:27:35] fruition because this goes back to, okay, I was in this marriage [00:27:40] we had like we didn’t have sex, right? But I go to school and I teach about [00:27:45] sexual satisfaction, and I talk about sexual communication, and I talk about [00:27:50] accepting who you are and your sexuality. And I personally [00:27:55] did not have that at home. And I felt so ashamed. Um, [00:28:00] because I’m just like a big fake at this point. You know, I didn’t have all the shit [00:28:05] I have that I, you know, preach about at school and teaching all these university students. [00:28:10] I was just teaching them theoretically. But I don’t walk the walk. I just talk the talk. And I have always [00:28:15] hated people like that. I’ve always hated people that just talk the talk and don’t walk the walk, and [00:28:20] I just hated myself. And all of that contributed to just me being [00:28:25] so unhappy in that marriage and. And was.
Rhona Eskander: He? Because if you weren’t having sex, like, was that not [00:28:30] affecting him?
Dr. Tara: It was. But at the same time, it wasn’t like we were not [00:28:35] jiving, like sexually well enough to be like initiating [00:28:40] that process of like, what can we do to even [00:28:45] make this sex better just because, like, we never had chemistry. And chemistry is it’s, [00:28:50] you know, this, like you’re a woman of science. Chemistry is something you have or you don’t.
Rhona Eskander: So [00:28:55] I was having a conversation with my coach. [00:29:00] I’m really invested in my, um, sort of healing journey [00:29:05] with, um, my therapy and my coach. And again, like, I really want to [00:29:10] delve into this with you. Um, there are people that you have chemistry with, but the chemistry [00:29:15] is literally a dopamine endorphin response. And it is [00:29:20] also biological because this person makes you want to reproduce, and it could be because their physical features. Right. [00:29:25] And also on top of that, like, I think that I was trying to work out that sometimes [00:29:30] those hormones make me feel really anxious. So it makes me feel anxious and alive at the same time. And [00:29:35] I think it’s chemistry. And sometimes I actually crave safety. And safety is a little bit more [00:29:40] boring, if that makes sense, because safety is.
Dr. Tara: See, I think that’s not true. Okay. I [00:29:45] think that’s not true because when we look at research of long term couples [00:29:50] who do have high sexual satisfaction, it’s not just [00:29:55] about chemistry, it’s about connection. It’s about having a healthy relationship. It’s about being [00:30:00] communicative, expressive, loving who you are so you can show up as 100%. You [00:30:05] don’t need this person. You want them, you crave them, you want them. And I think the fact [00:30:10] that there is this narrative of like, when you get married, life is just going to be boring [00:30:15] and you should accept it. It’s like, I think it’s bullshit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it’s bullshit and it’s conditioning [00:30:20] people to want a mediocre life.
Rhona Eskander: I think, though, but [00:30:25] I do think there is something to be said for the fact that some people are also [00:30:30] used to chaos, and chaos is like the if chaos is familiar to you, [00:30:35] you might seek that out in relationships and toxic. Exactly. And that I think that’s where like [00:30:40] one needs to be careful because that toxicity. Yes. Um, makes you [00:30:45] feel alive, but it’s not necessarily good for you. Do you see what I mean? You know, so I think, like, that’s [00:30:50] a really important thing. But yeah, I think chemistry is a really interesting one. No, it’s.
Dr. Tara: Just [00:30:55] one factor of a healthy relationship. Right. There’s like 20 different factors, right? When [00:31:00] we look at research, there’s so many other things like communication, personality [00:31:05] compatibility. There’s interest compatibility like so many things. Even family compatibility. [00:31:10] Yeah. So chemistry is one of them. Whether or not it affects you [00:31:15] heavily, it depends on what you value in a relationship. For me, I [00:31:20] did not know at the time that I value passion so much and that it propels my whole life, every [00:31:25] aspect of my life. And so with my current husband, we met on the plane. Um, so [00:31:30] hold on.
Rhona Eskander: So you went on your healing journey, so you got divorced. Then what happened?
Dr. Tara: I went on my healing journey even before [00:31:35] I got a divorce. My healing journey led me to getting a divorce. Yeah, it really gave me.
Rhona Eskander: So did [00:31:40] you just gain that clarity on your own? And you were like, you came home one day and you were like, I’m gonna have the conversation.
Dr. Tara: Yes. [00:31:45] It was really hard. I was like, in an Uber, calling my girlfriends like, shit, I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do it. And [00:31:50] it was just so, so scary. Yeah, that was the scariest thing I did in my life.
Rhona Eskander: So you woke up every day [00:31:55] crying for two weeks. Then what happened?
Dr. Tara: Just like, you know, continuing [00:32:00] on with my healing journey at that point, I have already started my healing journey like a year and a half [00:32:05] ago, right? So I continue on doing all my practices Self-affirmations journaling [00:32:10] meditation. I meditate every single day, making sure I spend time [00:32:15] with friends that are healthy that don’t judge me. That right, like making sure I focus on my [00:32:20] career and making sure I focus on my physical health. Exercising and talking to my coach [00:32:25] was dating again.
Rhona Eskander: Um, was that was it hard? Was it on your radar [00:32:30] at that point? Were you like, no, I just want to focus on me.
Dr. Tara: No, I was I was fine because, you know, actually what [00:32:35] I learned is there is this narrative of, like, you should fix yourself first before you date [00:32:40] someone, but that’s not true. Like, you can work on yourself together as long as both of you have [00:32:45] growth mindset. And actually having a supporter in your life helps [00:32:50] you accelerate that healing process. Like so much. So for me, I was [00:32:55] fine. Like I was open to receiving love to the universe. I tell the universe [00:33:00] like, if there’s love that’s passionate, like I’m here, I’m here for it. So [00:33:05] anyways, really, long story short, I’ve been ever since. [00:33:10] Um, my now husband and I started dating. I see you met on a plane. [00:33:15] Yeah. And so we were friends at first. And then when we started, you know, developing, [00:33:20] uh, kind of romantic feelings, we tell [00:33:25] each other, like, we’re we’re going to try to make this as easy. And because we were [00:33:30] both focusing on our careers, we were trying to make this as easy as possible. So fun [00:33:35] fact we actually started as like, friends with benefit. Yeah. Wow. We started as [00:33:40] like a fuck buddy.
Dr. Tara: Yeah yeah yeah. Because I love, you know, I love multiple orgasms. [00:33:45] I’m not gonna lie. And he’s attractive and he is the same. And we both love our careers and we want it to focus [00:33:50] on that. So we started with just, like fooling around and having that friendship. And we had such [00:33:55] good friendships. We would cook together. We would like talk about life and philosophy. And, you know, [00:34:00] I don’t know a lot of people that can like make me cum four times and then talk about Marxism [00:34:05] and cooks me dinner. So it was amazing like that. Friendship really is the foundation [00:34:10] of our relationship. And he loved my career versus my ex-husband was [00:34:15] always kind of icky about me being so upfront about sex. So this [00:34:20] really helped me embrace who I am. And plus I was heavily [00:34:25] working on myself continuously, relentlessly. And I’m like, you obsessed with just working on myself. [00:34:30] Yeah. So at that point when we started like, okay, we think we want to be in [00:34:35] a committed relationship. How long did that take? Like a year and a half. [00:34:40] Yeah, yeah. Um, then we.
Rhona Eskander: And were you also exploring other partners at the same time? [00:34:45] Yeah.
Dr. Tara: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were very upfront, like, you know, we love our time together, but [00:34:50] when we’re not together, it’s like our prerogative to however we want to conduct our lives. [00:34:55] Yeah. Um, but then we started being in a relationship. We had a conversation [00:35:00] like, this relationship is such an adult relationship. Like we had a conversation along the way, but when [00:35:05] we started the relationship, I told him, um, sexual exploration is my top three [00:35:10] values in life and we will never go away. I’ll be like 65 and wanting to like, explore [00:35:15] something. So I told him, like, you know, I’m someone that explore sexually. [00:35:20] I’m someone that goes to like sex parties. And, you know, I just want you to know. And [00:35:25] I desire a monogamous relationship, not a monogamous [00:35:30] relationship. I don’t desire a traditional relationship. Yeah. And at that point, he was like, I [00:35:35] completely understand I’m not there yet mentally, but I think I will be because I’m very [00:35:40] open to that. And I’m curious. So not right now, but yes, in the future. Yeah. [00:35:45] So we were monogamous at the beginning for up until [00:35:50] like only a year ago.
Rhona Eskander: And are you guys now started? [00:35:55]
Dr. Tara: We are not open. We’re monogamous. Yeah. Um, which is different. What’s monogamish? So [00:36:00] monogamish is like 95% monogamous. It’s just like a regular relationship [00:36:05] because people always ask like, oh my God, do you guys have crazy days and nights? I’m like, no, every day is the [00:36:10] same as you guys. Yeah. You know, we have each other. We’re emotionally committed, romantically committed. [00:36:15] We talk all the time. We support each other. We have shared finances. Um, we’re [00:36:20] like just a regular married couple.
Rhona Eskander: If you have another connection with someone else, do you kind of explore it? [00:36:25] Is that how it works? No. Okay.
Dr. Tara: Um, so except for sexual exploration. So [00:36:30] we see sex as recreational rather than something sacred between married couples. [00:36:35] It’s fine. So for us, sex isn’t related to faith or religion. Yeah, because a lot of people think [00:36:40] that sex should only be with their committed partner because it is attached to some teachings. [00:36:45] Isn’t it? Like, how did you come up with this idea? Like, let’s say you weren’t taught this [00:36:50] idea. Would you have thought that you only have to have sex with one person? It’s a stupid comment, but it came [00:36:55] from somewhere.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, same with marriage though, right? Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Tara: Well, marriage for me [00:37:00] it’s a financial situation. This is. I mean, it’s insurance.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but, like, this is the crazy [00:37:05] thing because I think, like, to be honest with you, like, I really wasn’t that bothered about marriage. [00:37:10] I kind of like my parents put it. And then when I thought about it, I was like. And then when I started, like, reading the paperwork, I’m like, [00:37:15] what is this? Like, it’s like an old out done agreement. And, you know, people are like, oh, but it’s the union of [00:37:20] two souls. I’m like, but why do you have to make it legal? I don’t get it. Like, if you are a woman with your shit together [00:37:25] and a man with his shit together, what is the point? Like, is it like you can do the union of love on a beach? You can, [00:37:30] like, celebrate it with your friends. Like, why do you have to make this whole legal debacle about it? You know, like, I’m [00:37:35] not here to marry someone for their money. And, like, I don’t think he’s here to marry. Do you know what I mean? Like, I found the whole thing a bit weird, [00:37:40] you know, like, really understanding it, you know?
Dr. Tara: I completely agree. Well, you know, I [00:37:45] wrote, I mean, I wrote a whole textbook about, like, development of, like, sex and relationships and marriages. [00:37:50] So it’s like, obviously in the past, it makes a lot of sense because women couldn’t have a bank [00:37:55] account, like, of course you want to get married. Of course it was a financial agreement. Yeah. Of course you want alimony [00:38:00] when you get dumped by your husband cheating on you because you didn’t work, you didn’t have a bank account. So it [00:38:05] makes total sense back in the day. Yeah. Nowadays, like you said, doesn’t make so much sense. However, [00:38:10] if people still feel like, oh my God, it’s like this union of souls, it’s okay. It’s like everybody’s prerogative. [00:38:15] Yeah. Um, however, I do think that in a marriage, um, you [00:38:20] can do what the eff ever you want. And that’s the thing is, people live [00:38:25] in this, like, constrained, like, box of rules, which is, you know, obviously [00:38:30] social and cultural norms of what is okay, what’s not okay when it comes to how [00:38:35] people conduct themselves in a romantic relationship, in a marriage and, um, in their sexual [00:38:40] relationship. So for me, I told my husband was like, listen, [00:38:45] we’re gonna go to sex parties, right? Like we’re gonna be exploring because [00:38:50] we both love exploring. We’re curious sexual individuals. And he’s like, yes, we will [00:38:55] not right now. So we were monogamous until we were not. And then we started exploring [00:39:00] as a monogamous couple, a monogamous married couple. So we’re 95% [00:39:05] of the time, just like everyone else. We have a normal life, and then 5% [00:39:10] of the time is the times where we go to like sex parties and we explore with other people. And sex [00:39:15] for us is recreational. It’s fun. It’s, um, exciting. It’s [00:39:20] taboo, it’s dirty. It allows us to, like, have this like, kind of almost like a double life [00:39:25] of whatever we do. Right? So that’s just the monogamish part. [00:39:30] But other than that, it’s just like a regular relationship, really. It’s not really scary [00:39:35] or crazy. It’s just once in a while we go to sex parties and do crazy things.
Rhona Eskander: I love that [00:39:40] for you. Now there’s some other stuff because I just want to refresh my memory. Okay. So [00:39:45] how did you. Okay, so I want to [00:39:50] share you as well. You talked about your book Sexual Communication Research and Action. Yeah. It’s [00:39:55] been extremely influential. But I want to ask you to share perhaps some of your key messages from that book. [00:40:00] Yes.
Dr. Tara: So that is a textbook like it’s for university. [00:40:05] Yeah, right. I’m coming out with actually my own book next year. Yeah. But that’s a textbook. [00:40:10] So the key messages in that textbook would be number one, um, [00:40:15] sexual knowledge is power. Without sexual knowledge, you’re unable to [00:40:20] understand your own sexuality. Accept it and accepting other people. Number two, [00:40:25] um, a lot of your own sexual fulfilment [00:40:30] and satisfaction comes from yourself, uh, which is a misconception that, like, [00:40:35] someone gives you pleasure. No, you need to even have the capacity to have [00:40:40] pleasure.
Rhona Eskander: What do you mean by masturbation at that point? Or, like, more like [00:40:45] like how would you how would you when you want to give yourself your own pleasure? How do you mean that specifically? [00:40:50]
Dr. Tara: Sexual mindfulness. Okay. Yeah. Which is a huge concept that we talk about in the textbook. [00:40:55] But also I talk about that constantly. I talk about it in my Ted talk. I talk about it in like every [00:41:00] podcast I go on because it’s free, but yet it’s not like PSA [00:41:05] around the world, right? Because it’s not pharmaceutical. People don’t make money from meditation. [00:41:10] Um, and, you know, it’s. Yeah, it’s not a money making [00:41:15] machine. So it’s not getting promoted and or endorsed that much. So I take it [00:41:20] my, my job to tell people about it. Yeah. So sexual mindfulness is the ability [00:41:25] to stay present, focussed and non-judgmental [00:41:30] during any kind of sexual activity, including self-pleasure and partner pleasure. Okay. [00:41:35] Um, it the crazy thing is most people don’t have [00:41:40] it. Most people can’t be mindful. It’s either they’re judging themselves, [00:41:45] judging their partner, thinking about something else, like having, you know, intrusive thoughts. [00:41:50] Um, or they have this repressed shame that haven’t [00:41:55] been processed. So sexual mindfulness is really the key to a [00:42:00] long lasting, happy sex life, because it’s like the very foundation of [00:42:05] a house you can’t build a house on, you know, unstable soil. Right. So [00:42:10] without sexual mindfulness, like, yes, you can, you know, have a partner who has [00:42:15] a sizeable package and knows how to use it and this and that have chemistry. [00:42:20] But at the same time you’re consistently thinking about, oh my God, am I a slut for fucking [00:42:25] this person? Am I? You know, all the things that stop you from being present in [00:42:30] that moment and enjoying the pleasure in the sensations in your body? That’s [00:42:35] that’s the biggest enemy.
Rhona Eskander: But do you not think that women will always have. I mean, I think it’s [00:42:40] changing more. And I know that you work a lot with like Gen Z, which is super interesting to me. And I’m [00:42:45] perhaps it’s changing, but do you not think the guilt and the shame within the female [00:42:50] sphere is still something that is massively prevalent, particularly amongst [00:42:55] certain religions. You know, we’ve touched on some, but there are literally some religions that are like, you cannot [00:43:00] tempt a man. Like it is you cover up because you tend to man.
Dr. Tara: Religion, that you cover [00:43:05] the whole body except the eyes.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean, so for me, do you not think that there is [00:43:10] still so far to go? I mean, I wouldn’t feel comfortable having these conversations. I [00:43:15] mean, even when we did the podcast with Emma. Mhm. Payman and I, my co-host who’s not here, [00:43:20] I was like oh my god. Like what are people going to say. Because we knew that dentistry is dominated by certain [00:43:25] ethnic minorities. And are they going to be like what the hell are they doing having these conversations? And I don’t [00:43:30] mean to be like judgemental, but I think there is certainly something to be said. [00:43:35] I still think that, you know, female empowerment, female sexuality and being able to be mindful [00:43:40] within certain activities is still really difficult. Yeah. Um, [00:43:45] but what’s your perception? Do you not think we’ve got really far to go? And do you think Gen Z are setting [00:43:50] a different precedence?
Dr. Tara: Yeah, yeah, I think so. So number one, I [00:43:55] do agree with you. We are we have a lot more to go. Right? And we still have [00:44:00] a long journey. However, it’s been changing so much. Even when I [00:44:05] started my career as a sexologist ten years ago. Until now, it’s completely [00:44:10] different. Yeah. Completely different. Right. And so given like another ten years, 15 [00:44:15] years, I think we’re going to see huge changes. Yeah. Um, I’ve seen [00:44:20] Gen Z’s my students. Right. University students nowadays is like Gen Z’s. And soon [00:44:25] enough we’ll have Gen Alpha, the next generation. But I can see Gen Z’s, even though there’s this statistic [00:44:30] that people often cite about, like Gen Z is not having sex. If you really look into that, if [00:44:35] you really look into that data, it was collected in 2021, it was Covid. [00:44:40] No one is fucking. So it’s not just Gen Z like you’d have to look at these [00:44:45] data to like when was it collected? Of course they’re not having sex. They’re on zoom. Yeah. So they [00:44:50] are having sex and they’re they’re actually very accepting of all kinds of sexuality, [00:44:55] sexual orientation, sexual exploration. They’re more accepting to ideas [00:45:00] that are non-traditional. Like for example, right. Prostate massage or like anal [00:45:05] sex or like butt play, like, you know, for men, it’s so like, oh my God, no, that’s so gay, [00:45:10] right? Especially if you ask older individuals. But like, not Gen Zs, they’re like pleasure is pleasure body [00:45:15] parts or body parts. It has no sexual orientation.
Rhona Eskander: But having spoken about that generation on porn [00:45:20] now, there is so much there is. Okay. Interestingly, [00:45:25] my partner gave me a book called The Anxious Generation. Um, it’s a book that he’s obsessed [00:45:30] with me rereading. I’ve just started it, um, and it’s about how technology has impacted 100% [00:45:35] everyone. And he thinks it’s like literally the source of all evil because the statistics [00:45:40] show the researcher. I’m sure you know of him. I forgot his name. Now he’s done lots of TEDx talks. Um, [00:45:45] he basically shows a statistically he’s like, no, no, no, this is not just hearsay, because people are like, oh, [00:45:50] the generation is getting more depressed because of, like, the conflict in the [00:45:55] Middle East or because of, like the fact that there’s been a massive recession. And he’s like, no, no, I have [00:46:00] the data, like social media has a huge part to play in anorexia, [00:46:05] body image, etc. and obviously the big thing for guys was porn addiction [00:46:10] and the inability of young men to be able to talk to women. But [00:46:15] what do you think? What is your view on the porn industry and the part [00:46:20] that porn has had to play on the younger generation?
Dr. Tara: Mhm. Oh [00:46:25] okay. So we have to first not [00:46:30] generalise all porn. Yeah. Because not all porn is bad. There [00:46:35] are bad porn and there are good porn. Um, and there are companies that work [00:46:40] really hard in being transparent in producing these we call erotic films. [00:46:45] These are like art. Yeah, it is pleasure. Yeah, it is kinky and taboo, [00:46:50] but at the same time it was produced ethically. So we call this genre ethical porn. [00:46:55] And it’s not produced to be addictive. It’s not produced to show violence on women that are non-consensual. [00:47:00] It’s not produced by sexist pigs. It’s not produced [00:47:05] where all these performers are not paid enough. Right? Like these are [00:47:10] consensual individuals having fun, kinky sex because they want to and [00:47:15] they get paid for it. And it’s made as an erotic film. So there’s ethical porn. Um, [00:47:20] there’s also ethical audio porn, right? There’s company, [00:47:25] big companies that do audio porn. Um, so there’s that genre of porn [00:47:30] where if individuals and couples use it in a regulated [00:47:35] way, actually has positive effects in their lives. Um, [00:47:40] we have seen in research where, um, individuals that feel, [00:47:45] um, like they can’t have a quote unquote normal sex life aka like disabled [00:47:50] people, for example, whether it’s a scene disabled disability or unseen [00:47:55] disability, something you can’t see, um, people still feel like they still get sexual [00:48:00] satisfaction from watching porn.
Dr. Tara: And that’s that’s just like one benefit for [00:48:05] a big group of people. Right? But there’s also research that shows couples [00:48:10] that watch porn together, like once in a while, as a strategy in bringing excitement [00:48:15] and novelty to their sex life, have a better sex life. So there’s those [00:48:20] benefits that we can’t forget. However, there are a lot of [00:48:25] bad porn, right? Because the industry for the longest time had gatekeepers of [00:48:30] these, um, powerful men who were gatekeepers, who were really just like [00:48:35] three, four big, um, porn producing houses that were producing [00:48:40] all these videos, and a lot of them were sexist. A lot of them didn’t pay the performers well. A lot of them [00:48:45] did, you know. It’s just made in a way that to be addictive to be. Yeah. Violence on [00:48:50] women that are uncalled for. So yeah, there are bad porn and yeah, there are people [00:48:55] who, um, rely on porn quite relentlessly [00:49:00] in their whatever, um, pleasure, um, journey. But, [00:49:05] you know, interestingly, porn addiction isn’t a diagnosable, um, [00:49:10] like condition. There’s no porn addiction [00:49:15] like in the textbook. Yeah. Like, there is, you know, sex addiction.
Rhona Eskander: There is.
Dr. Tara: Overconsumption. [00:49:20] Yeah, there’s overconsumption of porn. And anyone can be, you [00:49:25] know, a victim of that. And at the end of the day, I think it’s kind of [00:49:30] like, you know, do you, do you. Have you ever gone hunting?
Rhona Eskander: Hunting [00:49:35] in London. In London? In England? Yeah. It’s been like for animals.
Dr. Tara: Like people do that. Right?
Rhona Eskander: That’s [00:49:40] like a whole tradition of, like, people shooting and stuff like that and like, yeah, that kind of stuff. I mean, I’ve never engaged [00:49:45] in those activities. I mean, in the UK, I guess. I mean, I’m so not a country girl. Like, you know, you can see here. [00:49:50]
Dr. Tara: It is like one of the traditions. Yeah. Right. Like I’ve seen, you [00:49:55] know, I’ve seen Downton Abbey. Yeah, yeah.
Rhona Eskander: It is a tradition. Right. And, like, definitely like my university [00:50:00] friends got involved in that. Yeah.
Dr. Tara: Yeah. So it’s like, okay. It’s like guns [00:50:05] in that sense, right? Like, is it the person you know? Is it like porn [00:50:10] exists? It exists. Like we can’t make it go away unless the legislation legislation changes, [00:50:15] but it exists. How you use it is in your power. Yeah. So [00:50:20] for me to blame porn for your problems is kind of like.
Rhona Eskander: I [00:50:25] think though, like, look, I’ve had loads of conversations and I don’t want to give him lots of airtime, but like, I have loads [00:50:30] of about the rise of like male misogyny online, particularly when it comes to certain [00:50:35] influencers. And we know that. Um, but I think that what troubles me the most [00:50:40] is that we’ve had such an incredible narrative of men, essentially [00:50:45] subtly hating women. And I think that message comes across quite strong. And the thing is, is that I’m also not [00:50:50] part of the camp. That’s like women should rule the world. I really think that the problem is, is that [00:50:55] we have not found a way to collaborate instead of actually [00:51:00] separating ourselves. And I think the kind of like the internalised misogyny [00:51:05] of some men, but also the actual fact that a lot of female hate men is really not [00:51:10] helping our environment and our progression. No, I have an amazing relationship [00:51:15] with men. I know that I’m really lucky. I absolutely love my dad. He was [00:51:20] my king. He was the best dad. The best husband still is. Okay, he [00:51:25] actually set an unrealistic expectation because when I started dating after my first boyfriend, [00:51:30] I was like, why are men so shit? Like, it really shocked me that some men can [00:51:35] behave that way, but I genuinely had no problem like asserting [00:51:40] boundaries. There have been a few instances in the last five years of my life where [00:51:45] I was like, oh wow, that was actually misogynistic, you know? Or I think particularly in the workplace, [00:51:50] I’ve recognised I’m like, no, why haven’t women given opportunity? Why is there a conference and not a single female? [00:51:55] Why haven’t you.
Rhona Eskander: And there’s certain like things like that where I’m like, okay, I can see it, but I’ve never [00:52:00] felt hugely threatened. And I don’t want to say this lightly because [00:52:05] I know that people say, how can you say that? Women don’t even feel safe to kind of get into [00:52:10] an Uber late at night, walk home at night. I know that these are massive realities, but [00:52:15] I also think that if we’re going to progress in the world, it’s not about doing only female conferences or [00:52:20] only male clubs. Like, I think collaboration is beautiful and that’s where we’re really going to find [00:52:25] that happy medium. That’s the thing that I think is really important. And actually I like [00:52:30] a balance of energies. I like I like some men around and some women around like that balance of energy. [00:52:35] But I think the rise of toxic masculinity online [00:52:40] has become a problem only because when I suddenly find a 13 year old boy and his friends [00:52:45] like attacking a video because Andrew Tate might have said that, something that I was saying [00:52:50] was really offensive. When it’s not, that’s when I think it becomes a problem because we [00:52:55] are not having the right people influencing. And I feel sorry [00:53:00] because I feel like there is a generation of young men that do not have good role models. That’s my view [00:53:05] online particularly.
Dr. Tara: You’re right. And honestly, it’s been like this. Every generation, like even [00:53:10] our generation. You’re a millennial, right? Even our generation or even a generation before there’s always [00:53:15] been that. People have always had some bad role models. [00:53:20] It’s just that now it’s amplified due to social media. Right? So social media does give [00:53:25] a lot of opportunity to a lot of people, right, to democratise like [00:53:30] money, to give them Opportunity to be heard and to organise. [00:53:35] Right. Like people have organised, you know, protests or like whatever they are passionate [00:53:40] about. There’s people that, you know, got, um, a record deal from singing [00:53:45] on TikTok. Yeah. Right. Like, it’s it’s definitely an amazing tool in that sense. [00:53:50] It gives so many people opportunities and destroys gatekeepers. Yeah. [00:53:55] Which is really. Gatekeepers are problematic. Right. Um, however. [00:54:00] Just like porn. Right? Like the internet or social media is [00:54:05] also a place where there’s so many, so much misinformation [00:54:10] and bad information. And when you are not literate or [00:54:15] you don’t have, like, the emotional intelligence or critical thinking, then of course you’re [00:54:20] going to fall for narratives that are, um, that [00:54:25] are, I would say, like soothing to you because, you know, his [00:54:30] narrative is like, it’s not your fault that like that. No one likes you. It’s not, you [00:54:35] know, fuck these bitches, right? Like so. So for me, it’s it’s [00:54:40] it’s the fact that these kids lack community [00:54:45] love, understanding, acceptance and critical thinking [00:54:50] elsewhere and therefore get succumbed to these narratives very easily. [00:54:55] Right. But that’s like, not the internet’s problem to me. That’s the family problem. Well, [00:55:00] this is the thing.
Rhona Eskander: People crave community and love. And yeah, I always say, if anyone wants to [00:55:05] watch a film that was so powerful, it was made by my friend. Um, it’s called You [00:55:10] Resemble Me.
Dr. Tara: Mhm.
Rhona Eskander: And it is about the female suicide [00:55:15] suicide bomber. Um, in Paris, when the whole je suis Charlie thing [00:55:20] was going on. Anyways, it turned out it was all fake news. She wasn’t the first female suicide bomber. My [00:55:25] friend that made the film, it’s incredible. She went on a journey because when she was working for vice, she [00:55:30] got asked to interview the mother, and the mother only let my friend in because [00:55:35] she looked like the daughter. Hence the film You Resemble me. She recognised how the media was perpetuating [00:55:40] all this fake news. Then she created this whole beautiful film about the childhood of [00:55:45] this female suicide bomber. Children are not born saying, [00:55:50] I want to join ISIS. It is a segregated part of community [00:55:55] that doesn’t have love, was gone from like was part of the French racist [00:56:00] system that came from an abusive, alcoholic home that was separated from [00:56:05] her sister and gone from foster care to foster care. So? So guess what? When a community [00:56:10] comes along and is like, we’re going to give you love, we’re going to give you affection, we’re going to give you a job, we’re [00:56:15] going to give you security. That’s why she joins ISIS, not because she wants to bomb [00:56:20] the world. Do you see what I mean? And I’m not excusing. But this is the thing.
Dr. Tara: Like we everyone comes [00:56:25] from somewhere.
Rhona Eskander: Correct. And we need to understand, like you said, what is their childhood? [00:56:30] What is their conditioning? What support do we have? My guest a couple of weeks ago from America. [00:56:35] He used to be an addict, a drug addict, and he was like, addicts are sent to prison. [00:56:40] They’re not offered help. What if we offer them help first? You know, when they did that in Portugal, [00:56:45] you know, they had a bunch. They had a Portugal at one point had one of the biggest problems with heroin. They [00:56:50] said, okay, cool, we’re going to actually give you the heroin. So there were hubs. But in those hubs, [00:56:55] that’s so radical.
Dr. Tara: Yeah, I love it.
Rhona Eskander: But they had doctors and they had an opportunity for you [00:57:00] to get clean. And then they reduced the numbers by like to a third or something because it’s very interesting, [00:57:05] the addiction. Why? Because they offered those people help. Do you see what I mean? You know, so I think that’s really [00:57:10] important. Um, I want to ask you as well about your TEDx talk. So tell me, how did the TEDx talk come about? [00:57:15] What was it about? Um, I didn’t have an opportunity to watch it. So tell me.
Dr. Tara: Okay. Um, [00:57:20] so it’s it’s a it’s a ultimately it’s a [00:57:25] talk about sexual empowerment. It’s briefly about my story coming from so much [00:57:30] sexual shame to now basically celebrating my sexuality and talking about it unapologetically, [00:57:35] unapologetically to everybody. Yeah, but the data behind it is based on my [00:57:40] study that is, um, that was looking at [00:57:45] intrapersonal variables that predict long term [00:57:50] sexual satisfaction. I surveyed 5000 people. Wow. [00:57:55] Um, I really wanted that redundancy in data. Like, I wanted to make sure it’s not just, like, 100 [00:58:00] people, right? Like, I surveyed 5000 people. I collected data over the two year period [00:58:05] and ran statistics on, like, these different variables to see what [00:58:10] are significant predictors of long term sexual satisfaction. And this will come [00:58:15] full circle. The number one predictor of sexual satisfaction is sexual [00:58:20] communication.
Rhona Eskander: So that’s speaking during sex or.
Dr. Tara: Speaking about sex. [00:58:25] Talking about sex in your relationship. A lot of people don’t talk about [00:58:30] sex in their relationship. And then one day they explode because one person cheated on another person, and then [00:58:35] they go, what went wrong? Well, you’ve never talked about it. Yeah. You know, you’ve always had issues. You [00:58:40] didn’t talk about it. So the number one is sexual communication. The number two is sexual [00:58:45] self-esteem, which is very much the same as sexual confidence. Sexual confidence is external [00:58:50] is what you express. Sexual self-esteem is how you feel about yourself. And then thirdly is sexual [00:58:55] mindfulness. So these three variables powerful intrapersonal communication [00:59:00] variables that predict long term sexual satisfaction. These three variables are the things that you [00:59:05] can do. These three are in your hands. You have the power to do all these [00:59:10] three and have an amazing, healthy, good sex life. Um, [00:59:15] if you decide to do them.
Rhona Eskander: So I want to delve a little bit [00:59:20] more into, um, And relationships because [00:59:25] this is really interesting to me. Do you believe there is such [00:59:30] thing as a soul mate? Yeah. And one soul mate only.
Dr. Tara: No.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. [00:59:35] So tell me. Tell me a little more. Expand.
Dr. Tara: Um, you know, I read a lot about eastern philosophy. [00:59:40] I think for me, I am really the mare. Like, my whole, you [00:59:45] know, belief system, my persona, what I stand for. [00:59:50] Everything is a marriage of Eastern and Western philosophy. Because I’m from the East. [00:59:55] I was taught, like, you know, all the eastern philosophies. I’m a Buddhist. My mom doesn’t [01:00:00] believe in Western medicine. Always make me these, like, weird, like bitter broth. So [01:00:05] I have a lot of, like, eastern philosophies in me. But then I was trained and taught in the Western [01:00:10] world, so I’m like a marriage of both. Yeah, yeah. I think that’s why we connect so well and [01:00:15] have, like, spicy conversation is because we’re similar. Um, so for me, the [01:00:20] discussion of soulmates mates is taught actually a lot in like the eastern world. [01:00:25] And it’s not that you are connected to just one and the only one person, it’s [01:00:30] you’re connected to a bunch of different people that you’ve met in your past life because. [01:00:35]
Rhona Eskander: You believe there was a past life.
Dr. Tara: Right, right. Because in Buddhism, there’s reincarnation. And even [01:00:40] if even this life, when you die, you’re going to reincarnate to be someone or something. Um, [01:00:45] and so your soul mates are the people that you had met [01:00:50] in your past life. And something happened. It bonded you together, and you will always meet them. [01:00:55] Yeah. So you meet them now. You meet them in your next life.
Rhona Eskander: I was listening to a really great [01:01:00] podcast with Sarah Al-madini. I don’t know if you know her. She’s the one. And she was talking about twin [01:01:05] flames, and she was saying that either your twin flame is your mirror or [01:01:10] your partner, it’s not necessarily someone you end up with. And maybe as your mirror, they come, [01:01:15] they teach you something and then they go. It doesn’t mean they have to be your partner for life. Yeah. And I found [01:01:20] that, like, really interesting because I think that we can have lots of different soul [01:01:25] mates and people for like different reasons. So I think that that’s really important. Now, [01:01:30] do you think that I have a.
Dr. Tara: Question for you actually. So you believe [01:01:35] in soul mates? Are you with your soul mate now?
Rhona Eskander: So this is really interesting. So [01:01:40] let me tell you a little bit about me and my partner. He’s like possibly like one of the most beautiful [01:01:45] people I’ve ever met in my entire life, that he is incredible. He had a different past life [01:01:50] to me. So dare I say, he’s a man in finance, but he definitely had like a very hedonistic [01:01:55] life that’s completely opposite to me. When [01:02:00] we first dated, um, we had gone on like five dates and [01:02:05] I very much got the impression that he was emotionally unavailable and I was on, like, husband shopping [01:02:10] duty because I was like, I. You had your checklist. We reconnected because actually I was going to Burning [01:02:15] Man and I needed advice on a camp. And then he said to me like, hey, why don’t I help [01:02:20] you now? Emotionally unavailable men. Oh, I love an avoidant. I love [01:02:25] an avoidant. So I was like super attracted to him. I was super like, you [01:02:30] know. And he was very much like he was you’re kind of like Euro [01:02:35] kind of like very he’s got his shit together. But he has that kind of like, I’ll take [01:02:40] a boat in Greece. He’s Greek. Right? And like, I loved that. And it was all very intriguing when [01:02:45] I came back from Burning Man. Um, that was about a year later, after we had [01:02:50] first dated.
Rhona Eskander: He was like, do you want to meet again? And he actually asked for a second chance. [01:02:55] And in his like, second chance, he said to me, um, [01:03:00] he’d done some work. He actually went celibate for a bit. And this is the interesting thing, [01:03:05] I think that he thought that he was constantly trying to get a high from new experiences. [01:03:10] So new partners every weekend and the parties constant dopamine. Yeah. [01:03:15] And that I think couldn’t allow him to be in a monogamous relationship. [01:03:20] He actually at one point thought he didn’t believe in monogamy. And then [01:03:25] his father passed away. And when his father passed away, suddenly the [01:03:30] importance of family, I think, initiated something in him when he was like, actually, I want a [01:03:35] family because it was like the siblings looking after each other, the legacy that was left. Do you see what I mean? [01:03:40] Like all these different things. So when he came back, I was like in a different mindset. [01:03:45] I was like, I want to kind of like go on my own healing journey. And I think [01:03:50] that he’s been a soul mate. Has he been my only soul mate in life? No. I think I’ve had a few soul mates. [01:03:55] And how long have you been together?
Dr. Tara: Six years. And is. Are you married? Yeah. [01:04:00] And when you. Because you didn’t believe in marriage.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I think like.
Dr. Tara: When [01:04:05] you got married, like what’s the rationale.
Rhona Eskander: So I think that oh my God, this is deep [01:04:10] and personal. So we didn’t really care as in like we had the conversation about [01:04:15] like, I don’t really care. Like I felt like I got to that stage where, as I said, like I was like I wanted to do it before I was 30 [01:04:20] to hit a box and show everybody and take the photos. And then I was like, in my 30s and I was like, I don’t care. Pandemic [01:04:25] hit. I was like at the height of like my career, like booming and all that stuff. And [01:04:30] I think that we had talk about. But my father was like, [01:04:35] I don’t want a baby out of wedlock. It meant a lot to him and his family. So I think it was [01:04:40] a more like the honouring, like he wanted to kind of honour for your family. I kind of liked the engagement bit [01:04:45] of it more than the actual like I was like, I like the fact that somebody’s like, hey, like you’re mine. And the [01:04:50] gesture, you know? But like, it was just, I think when I started seeing the paperwork, it really made me start [01:04:55] thinking about patriarchy and what was the point? And like, I didn’t understand, because even if we did it, like [01:05:00] on a beach with a shaman, I think it would have felt more in alignment if I’m honest. [01:05:05] Right. It was the whole.
Dr. Tara: Like, you could have had that too.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, and I think we might later on.
Dr. Tara: But I think it was the whole [01:05:10] like a vow renewal.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So we did like the whole, like civil type thing of it. Yeah. So [01:05:15] yeah. And I think that, like, what he’s really allowed me is that I’ve been just [01:05:20] like you on a healing journey, I think, for the past ten years, if I’m honest with you. Yeah. And it’s really fucking [01:05:25] hard because you’re like, I want a complete healing. I want a complete healing. And then.
Dr. Tara: You realise it’s [01:05:30] just.
Rhona Eskander: A lifelong.
Dr. Tara: Journey. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: And I think, like, what’s really important is, is like, [01:05:35] he’s really open. He’s allowed me to be me. And I think, like, as you said, as strong, empowered [01:05:40] women. That’s really, really important because I was in a really hideous, controlling [01:05:45] relationship before him with a narcissist. And I remember dulling my shine, dulling my light, isolating [01:05:50] my friends. And it’s really hard when you’re naturally a very strong woman to kind of be. [01:05:55] What I’m trying to get into alignment now is the construct of marriage. Mhm. [01:06:00] Seems really boring for me. And it shouldn’t be because my partner isn’t boring and [01:06:05] my life is very exciting. But I think what I see around me and the conventionality [01:06:10] does not align to me. Right. But that’s when my coach is like, you want to take your kid to Burning Man. [01:06:15] You take your kid to Burning Man. Like you make marriage what you want it to be. That’s why it’s [01:06:20] very refreshing to hear from you what you want to. But we have had [01:06:25] open conversations because what I have said to him, unlike you.
Dr. Tara: Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: I have [01:06:30] never got to explore my sexuality. Yeah. Because of the shame? Sure, I can explore [01:06:35] it with him. But also you might argue and say, and I think this is the battle. There is a difference [01:06:40] between doing it with one person versus multiple people, because also you don’t know any [01:06:45] different. You know what I mean?
Dr. Tara: Like there’s so much to explore just with him. I mean, have you tried BDSM? [01:06:50]
Rhona Eskander: No. Like and this is the thing, like like this is the thing. Like I’m going to, like, book a session with you [01:06:55] to kind of, like, go through that.
Dr. Tara: So there’s, but, you.
Rhona Eskander: Know, like, it was so.
Dr. Tara: Much to try. It was, it was really.
Rhona Eskander: Interesting [01:07:00] because I was when we first met, he was like, I’d love to take you to the Shibari class. [01:07:05] And I was like, I’m not a slut. No.
Dr. Tara: What are you talking about?
Rhona Eskander: You know. So [01:07:10] did you try? No, we didn’t try yet. So, like, this might be like the next, um, [01:07:15] this might be the next thing. Now you’re obviously in the UK to, um, be [01:07:20] working on Celebs Go Dating. I want to know, what has been your most surprising or memorable experience working on Celebs Go [01:07:25] Dating?
Dr. Tara: Ooh, um, I would [01:07:30] say the most surprising is how real those therapy sessions are. Um, [01:07:35] when you watch reality TV, you just kind of think like, oh, they just do like hit the beat, hit [01:07:40] the beat and like, that’s it, right? Because like, when you watch, you know, Keeping Up With the Kardashians, it just all [01:07:45] looks kind of fake. Like they, they prepared for this. But on Celebs Go Dating, [01:07:50] when the celebrities come into our agency, sit in the couch with me and [01:07:55] another, um, expert, and we conduct these sessions. [01:08:00] They’re very much like my regular session in my private practice in LA is [01:08:05] we are trying to help you. We have to investigate from the beginning. Your past relationships, [01:08:10] your family.
Rhona Eskander: Are you a qualified therapist as well? No.
Dr. Tara: I’m a I’m a professor. Okay, [01:08:15] fine. I’m a professor. So my private practice isn’t therapy practice. Okay. Yeah, it’s [01:08:20] a coaching practice. Fine. Okay, so we have a goal to get to. We investigate, make [01:08:25] a plan, get to the goal versus healing from the past. Right. Therapy is healing [01:08:30] from the past. Coaching is having a goal. And how do we meet the goal? [01:08:35]
Rhona Eskander: Okay, so I’ve got a question for you.
Dr. Tara: I have both I have a therapist and I have a coach.
Rhona Eskander: But so you said to me earlier that for [01:08:40] example, like so say you’ve got a client that comes in and then the client’s like because I’m trying to [01:08:45] understand like the difference between the therapy and the coaching. So say you have a client that comes in and then she says to you, like, I have a husband, [01:08:50] I’ve been in with him for 20 years and I really love him. But and I love and we have kids [01:08:55] and everything is great. And a bit like the scenario you were in, but actually, I think my sex life has never [01:09:00] been that great. Would you advise them to leave? Do you see what I mean? In the same way that you left, you know, because, [01:09:05] as you said, one of your highest goals was sexual satisfaction, or would you encourage them [01:09:10] to maybe work on it within the relationship?
Dr. Tara: My go to is work on it. Okay. Yeah. My go to [01:09:15] is work on it. However, I have assessments. Yeah. So I have them do the assessments if one [01:09:20] of their top values is sexual connection and it’s not being met. [01:09:25]
Rhona Eskander: Yeah.
Dr. Tara: And it’s not being met. Like I’m gonna tell them. The truth is, this shit is gonna be hard. Yeah. [01:09:30] And you may have to leave him afterwards. Yeah. But you can. We can try first. However, [01:09:35] if they do, the assessment and their sexual, sexual connection is like number ten out of, you [01:09:40] know, then it’s not a problem. When it’s not a problem, why fix it? Yeah. Like, if it’s not a problem, it’s not [01:09:45] a problem. You don’t have to compare to your friend who like, have sex six days a week. Right. It’s okay. You have sex [01:09:50] once a month. Like, if that’s okay with you. Yeah. That’s the thing is, like, you cannot [01:09:55] ever compare your sex life to anyone else. Yeah. Like, fuck your friends [01:10:00] that say, like, you know, oh, my God, we have sex, like, three times a day, or we just have the most amazing sex [01:10:05] life. Like, yeah, that’s a that’s amazing sex life for her. Maybe not for you, maybe for you. It’s like [01:10:10] once a week. Yeah. Maybe for you it’s once every two weeks, but it’s really connected. And you really spend the [01:10:15] time. Maybe for you, it’s quickies three times a week and a long session once a month. Yeah, whatever. [01:10:20] Like it’s whatever you make it to be. And I think, I guess the moral of the story [01:10:25] of everything that we just talked about is like, you design your own life. Yeah, I [01:10:30] love that. And social conditioning, cultural norms, social norms, expectations. These things [01:10:35] kill you. They kill you.
Rhona Eskander: But did you lose a lot of friends and family along the way?
Dr. Tara: Yeah. [01:10:40] And that’s okay. Yeah, yeah. That’s okay. Um, [01:10:45] I was very close with my ex-husband’s family. Of course, you know. Yeah. [01:10:50] Not in contact with any of them anymore. And that was really sad. That was really a huge part of cutting that cord [01:10:55] is like, I’m not just cutting one cord, isn’t it? Like I’m cutting all the cords. Yeah, and that was really [01:11:00] hard. Um, yeah. A few friends that I became really close with through, you [01:11:05] know, mutual friends in our marriage. Like all of those, I had to, you know, kind of regulate [01:11:10] like, because we’re all still friends. How do we show up in places where he’s not there? I’m not there. [01:11:15] So, yeah, like but at the same time, I wouldn’t change a thing. Like, currently, my [01:11:20] life is ten out of ten. My sex life is nine out of ten. [01:11:25] Yeah. I haven’t seen my husband for like two and a half weeks, but that’s okay. Yeah, I will see him soon, but you know what I mean. Like, I, [01:11:30] I think because I embrace who I am and my values and, [01:11:35] um, my desires and don’t think that I’m [01:11:40] a bad person for wanting something non-traditional. Finally, I get to live [01:11:45] the life you want. Finally, people see it. And even though they don’t want the same life as me, [01:11:50] a lot of people don’t want the same life as me. They still follow me and still love the messages I give. It’s because [01:11:55] it gives them permission to be themselves. And when it’s non-traditional, [01:12:00] not just in sex ways like in other ways, they feel accepted by [01:12:05] me because I accept myself. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: No, I really love that because I’ve [01:12:10] known I’ve seen your TikTok. I’ve seen the huge following as well. I mean, what with [01:12:15] the social media, the rise of social media, how did that happen?
Dr. Tara: Honestly, I think [01:12:20] it’s just because I don’t give a fuck. And was this.
Rhona Eskander: In the last five years, the.
Dr. Tara: Rise? Just the last three [01:12:25] years? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s huge. And it was just organic.
Rhona Eskander: You were like, I’m gonna put this content out all organic. [01:12:30]
Dr. Tara: I have never bought any followers. Never, like, paid for anything all organic. [01:12:35] And anything I paid for was actually my team. I paid for a team that puts out content 24 [01:12:40] over seven. Yeah, I have that. So I definitely paid for that. Yeah. Um, but really, I, [01:12:45] I think people were craving sex education because sex positivity [01:12:50] was on the rise. A few years ago, TV show called Sex Education in the UK started. It was [01:12:55] very.
Rhona Eskander: Popular. Yeah, I was.
Dr. Tara: In LA and it’s huge in LA. Yeah, so I knew and then [01:13:00] euphoria came and then, you know, all the shows that really highlight sex positivity and [01:13:05] not being ashamed of your sexuality came. So with that rise [01:13:10] of sex positivity in the media, I was like, oh, okay. Like the world is [01:13:15] ready for something like this. And at the same time, my students at in the university were were [01:13:20] really encouraging me. She was like, they were like, you’re so funny. You should have a social media [01:13:25] account. And at that time I didn’t have. Yeah. So three years ago I started TikTok, [01:13:30] Instagram and just start putting out content. Yeah. And [01:13:35] yeah, like two years later, I hit 2 million followers. And then, you know, Celebs [01:13:40] Go Dating, like, the casting people reach out, they want a sex expert on the show. I get to do [01:13:45] this show.
Rhona Eskander: It broadens your opportunities, which is what I found as well. I mean, before the rise of social media, [01:13:50] I was like turning up to like TV studios and journalists office. And I was like, you’re gonna write about dentistry? [01:13:55] I mean, dentistry is less sexy than sex, but you know what I mean?
Dr. Tara: Very important though. It’s a [01:14:00] huge, um, self-confidence factor, isn’t it? Having nice teeth.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So. [01:14:05] But, um, I definitely pitched it out to the media, and I think there was like, you know, the rise of influencers, you know, became [01:14:10] like a big thing.
Dr. Tara: Oh my God.
Rhona Eskander: Influencers. There we go. Um, and like, you know, today [01:14:15] I got a phone call from a big kind of, like, morning TV show, like I do a lot. I’ve done, like, a lot of documentaries and [01:14:20] TV shows and things like that. Like, I think social media has been great, but I think, like, really [01:14:25] importantly is like understanding your messaging. And I think for me, messaging in terms of like an educative [01:14:30] point of view is really, really important. Am I hearing you correctly and that really [01:14:35] what you want your audience to gain? Above all, education is the empowerment to be who you want [01:14:40] to be without shame and guilt. Exactly. That’s your message, right? Yeah. Um, so [01:14:45] I’ve got another relationship question before we wrap up as well. You had brought this up. I got really obsessed [01:14:50] with Esther Perel. Esther Perel was definitely like a female that helped the female empowerment [01:14:55] journey. And I think her Reframing of infidelity is extremely powerful, [01:15:00] although there is so much shame and guilt. And of course I’m saying you should never have that go [01:15:05] out intending to hurt another human being. You know, that’s not the whole point. But I think infidelity is an extremely [01:15:10] complex subject. And I noticed that you said, you know, like, oh, you brought up [01:15:15] the whole sexual aspect that some partners cheat because of a certain like, sexual need not being [01:15:20] met. We know the.
Dr. Tara: Research found that that’s mainly sexual. Three reasons.
Rhona Eskander: So what [01:15:25] is the so what is the one of the top three reasons for infidelity?
Dr. Tara: Um, sex. Yeah. [01:15:30] Yeah. Uh, lack of attention and interest from their partner. [01:15:35] Yeah. And not just about sex, just lack of attention in general. Emotional. And then third is, you know, there’s [01:15:40] always going to be shitty reasons, right? Like it’s cheating. They, they, um, they [01:15:45] want like, extra validation, but that’s their problem. Yeah. You know, that’s their personal problem that instead [01:15:50] of fixing through like therapy and wellness, they chose fix [01:15:55] like quick external validation from cheating with someone that’s quote unquote into [01:16:00] them. So there’s all these reasons, however, um, just [01:16:05] a disclaimer like, I would never blame people that get cheated on. [01:16:10] Right. Um, and it is still important to understand [01:16:15] that in every scenario it takes two to tango, especially [01:16:20] when it comes to relationships. So you can’t really excuse [01:16:25] yourself completely out of the equation and completely 100% [01:16:30] blame the person that did the deed. Because even though [01:16:35] if it’s 10% of contributing to the factor, or if it’s 50% or whatever, you’re [01:16:40] still there. And the fact that your partner, um, [01:16:45] isn’t comfortable enough to have a conversation that [01:16:50] they’re unhappy, that they the reason why they engage in infidelity. [01:16:55] The fact that they weren’t comfortable enough to have this conversation. It tells me that your relationship [01:17:00] is unhealthy. If you cannot communicate your true feelings, your [01:17:05] relationship is unhealthy. And when the relationship is unhealthy, it’s usually [01:17:10] not because of one person, it’s because of two people.
Rhona Eskander: So just [01:17:15] to I think what has been interesting, I’ve had I had a conversation with an amazing [01:17:20] friend on Saturday who’s the mother of four children. She [01:17:25] went from one to being pregnant with triplets. Um, yeah, I know. Naturally. Wow. [01:17:30] And then, um, she told [01:17:35] me that she found out that her partner was cheating. Um, she [01:17:40] said that the marriage became difficult when more children came. [01:17:45] And I hear that a lot. I hear that the children side of things can really kill the sex. [01:17:50] And whilst I understand that it takes two to tango. I think it’s a really, really difficult [01:17:55] element. It is, especially when you’ve got more than 2 or 3 children in the mix, you know, [01:18:00] because it’s a lot. It’s a lot. And I think the woman has to burden a lot. And men. [01:18:05] Did you ever watch the documentary? What was it called? Oh, you know what I’m talking about. That [01:18:10] dating website where people were cheating.
Dr. Tara: Oh. Ashley Madison. Yeah. And then you.
Rhona Eskander: Also see that, like, well, [01:18:15] that guy.
Dr. Tara: Is just trash.
Rhona Eskander: The Christian guy. Yeah. The one that was, like, the one that had, like, three [01:18:20] kids. The one? Yeah. And was pretending he was, like, holier than thou and then like. And [01:18:25] then they kind of, like, got back together. But I was like, you know, like, he talks about the, like, [01:18:30] the banality of, like, you know, like normal life and then coming home to kids and a wife. [01:18:35] So I get that it takes two to tango, but I think really like, mothers have to be given a little bit of [01:18:40] grace. One of the difficulty for the difficulty of like, especially when they’re the ones left [01:18:45] to deal with the kids, like you’re not going to feel the sexiest with like, sit down. You’re like top and like weight [01:18:50] gain and all that stuff. I think that is something where we have to just give a bit of grace as well. You know.
Dr. Tara: 100%. [01:18:55] Um, I think that there is. So there’s that’s two [01:19:00] different issues for me. One is the [01:19:05] the couple not having healthy communication. That’s [01:19:10] what I’m saying. It takes two to tango. Not the cheating part. Okay. So yes, [01:19:15] you are a wife and a mother of four children. There is definitely [01:19:20] a communication factor that you can be doing better [01:19:25] in your relationship that will not only benefit the relationship, but will benefit the [01:19:30] children. Yeah, children can feed off a parent’s energy. They feed off [01:19:35] of role model whether they’re good or bad or mediocre. Um, so [01:19:40] that communication between two people needs to be very, [01:19:45] very strong. And that is something everyone can do. Um, The sex [01:19:50] part is completely different. The sex part. If there’s an issue, see a therapist. See [01:19:55] a sex coach, a sex therapist, sexological bodyworkers, somatic worker, whatever. [01:20:00] There’s so many modalities when it comes to sexual wellness. But that’s a different [01:20:05] issue. Yeah. The communication issue though is something like, for example, if the husband [01:20:10] is feeling neglected by the wife because the wife spends all the time with children because she has [01:20:15] to. Right. Um, then the husband should have said something. Yeah. And if [01:20:20] the husband says something, the wife, does she go then? Hey, but listen to me. Here’s here’s [01:20:25] where I’m coming from. I spend all my time taking care of the children. Right. So there needs to be [01:20:30] communication and compromise.
Dr. Tara: Yeah. However, a lot of these couples can’t find, [01:20:35] um, a moment of compromise because [01:20:40] a lot of times they are very defensive. Yeah. Of what they have to do, and rightfully [01:20:45] so. Like you said, like if you’re a woman taking care of four children. And then also [01:20:50] on top of that, probably have to work. Yeah. Um, is there energy to have [01:20:55] sex? Probably not. Yeah. Probably not. But. So that’s why you have to talk [01:21:00] about it. Listen, babe, I have no energy. Yeah. So what can we do at this point? Is it child [01:21:05] care? Is it staycations? Yeah. Is it that, you know? Yeah. Every [01:21:10] once a month, we put the children in childcare or grandparents take care of them. We go on a [01:21:15] staycation and we have a connecting sexual. Yeah. Um. Session together. What [01:21:20] is the solution here? Because blaming each other is not is [01:21:25] not an effective strategy at this point saying, oh, it’s her fault because she [01:21:30] doesn’t give me attention, it’s his fault for doing blah blah blah. Like it really doesn’t [01:21:35] work. So like like this is kind of our conversation. Prior divisive [01:21:40] strategies don’t work. Yeah. How do we collaborate? Yeah, that’s gonna work. So yeah, [01:21:45] like I feel really bad for a lot of women that are my clients that get cheated on because it’s very, [01:21:50] very freaking common. It’s so. But do you think they can? I mean, do you think? [01:21:55]
Rhona Eskander: But interestingly, what I find fascinating about Esther Pearl’s conversation is also the notion of like women [01:22:00] cheating as well, because I think that happens a lot more than people think. And I’ll never forget [01:22:05] the example she gave. She talks about in her Ted talk about her client called Priya. And Priya comes [01:22:10] from like the perfect, like, you know, strict Asian background. And she does everything to be the perfect daughter [01:22:15] and the perfect wife. And then she ends up, like, cheating on her husband with the tree surgeon. That’s, like, covered in tattoos. [01:22:20] You know, that’s completely different to her husband and having an affair with him. And it’s like, oh, okay. But like, [01:22:25] Priya is living the adolescence that she never had because of the repression, you know? And [01:22:30] I think that people think that this is so black and white. I’ve had many debates with people and as I [01:22:35] said, I do not endorse the type of behaviour, but it’s complex. We’re complex beings with complex experiences. [01:22:40] And, you know, we need to understand. But do you feel that a lot of your clients can or [01:22:45] cannot recover from cheating with their partner like they can work through it. Or do you feel like [01:22:50] too much damage more often than not has been done?
Dr. Tara: That’s a great question. [01:22:55] And now that I’m thinking about it, it’s really 50 over 50. Really? Yeah, there’s actually [01:23:00] quite a few people that couldn’t cope and had to get a divorce. [01:23:05] I mean, granted, okay. Like one of them like had sex [01:23:10] with a wedding planner, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s like no coming [01:23:15] back from that. But like, I’m like, when they come see me the first session and they tell me the situation, I’m like, no guys. [01:23:20]
Rhona Eskander: Yeah.
Dr. Tara: Like yeah, I don’t know.
Rhona Eskander: So you do a lot of couples work too. Yeah.
Dr. Tara: Yeah I actually do like [01:23:25] majority couples work. Yeah. Um, because it’s usually either the wife or the husband. Find me [01:23:30] on Instagram and it’s like, oh, what’s she saying, I resonate, let’s reach out, let’s meet [01:23:35] her. Let’s see what she thinks about our situation. So that’s like typically the how it goes on. But [01:23:40] yeah like people like that where another one is like he like, secretly, [01:23:45] you know, goes to these sex parties and by himself in a different [01:23:50] city and tell her that he goes on like business trips, for example, like something like [01:23:55] that is never going to work. She wants a monogamous relationship. He doesn’t want a monogamous relationship. [01:24:00] Like just by the core. It won’t work. So I just tell them that I just told them, [01:24:05] well, listen, I can help you. We can come up with a plan like coaching, right? We can come up with a goal, [01:24:10] then formulate a plan. But you must stick to it. But they can’t stick to it because the guy isn’t [01:24:15] meant to be. Yeah. That guy. Not every guy. That guy isn’t meant to be in a monogamous [01:24:20] relationship. So for those people, get a divorce. But there are [01:24:25] people that you know. So, for example, one of my clients had a lapse of judgement in Vegas, [01:24:30] right? That they came in together. She’s heartbroken. You know, she’s [01:24:35] she’s the she’s a she’s the breadwinner, doctor breadwinner. Um, [01:24:40] they have one child. He feels super neglected because he’s kind of like his masculinity.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [01:24:45]
Dr. Tara: Yeah. He’s always left taking care of the baby because she does night shifts. [01:24:50] Um, and always tired. And so they at that point, they [01:24:55] haven’t had sex for a year. Yeah. Wow. So he went, you know, to [01:25:00] bachelor party. Vegas. Lapse of judgement. Had sex with this one person. Right. And super [01:25:05] guilty about it. But anyways, they actually continue on to text. It wasn’t like a [01:25:10] one night stand. Right. They continue on to text. And that’s where she found out. Like through.
Rhona Eskander: The messages. [01:25:15] Yeah.
Dr. Tara: And so that was really hard. And [01:25:20] everyone was heartbroken. However they were able to come back from [01:25:25] it from it. We worked on it. We formulate a plan of them having a more proactive [01:25:30] sex life. Don’t take it to the back burner. Obviously, it’s important to both of you to feel desired [01:25:35] and happy, so we must do something about it. Um, so we create a whole plan and [01:25:40] it was like, um, over the course of three months and they stuck to it [01:25:45] and, oh, it’s just beautiful how how it turned out.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I think some couples come can [01:25:50] come back from it. My God, I could talk to you for days. I’m like, I need to go for dinner with you. For lunch with you? Like we should. [01:25:55] Yeah. Like, honestly, it’s been incredible.
Dr. Tara: I definitely want to hear more about you. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: I mean, [01:26:00] I would love that.
Dr. Tara: Complicated life, and I, you know. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: So you make it complicated, [01:26:05] as in, like, all the different things I do.
Dr. Tara: Well, no. Just like from the past, like. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: I [01:26:10] mean, there’s so much like, there’s just so much trauma and things like that and like, delving into it, but, [01:26:15] um, I will talk to you about that. Now, what is the plans for your future?
Dr. Tara: Yeah. You [01:26:20] mean personal life. Professional life?
Rhona Eskander: So what what what would you like to see happen? Like [01:26:25] what? Is there anything that we should be even more excited about? We know that you’ve got Celebs Go Dating coming [01:26:30] out. Yeah, you’ve got possibly got a book. Is there anything else on the horizon?
Dr. Tara: Yeah. So I got a book deal last [01:26:35] year and it’s coming out next year. It’s called expertise, and it’s going to [01:26:40] be iconic. Um, a cultural movement. I’m launching my, um, [01:26:45] uh, I’m launching my brand called love. Amazing. Um, and the first [01:26:50] product is going to be a, um, an organic, coconut oil based intimate oil. [01:26:55] I love it. Um, so that’s that. We I have actually a brand [01:27:00] new column coming out in Women’s Health magazine. I love it called Sixth Floor. Um, [01:27:05] and, yeah, hopefully, hopefully a baby.
Rhona Eskander: I love that for you. [01:27:10]
Dr. Tara: I’m ready. Yeah. I want to get pregnant. I want to, yeah. I’m ready. Okay.
Rhona Eskander: We’re gonna see this absolute firecracker [01:27:15] of a child come out. Oh, yeah. I’m so excited. I’m so excited. Thank [01:27:20] you so, so much. I have literally loved this talk. I think you’re incredible. Could you just please tell everybody your [01:27:25] Instagram handle and your TikTok handle if they want to follow you?
Dr. Tara: Yes. It’s at lovebites.co. That’s [01:27:30] lovebites.co.
Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much. Thank you to Tara. [01:27:35] It was incredible. Thank you.