Levi Levenfiche: Oh my God, we’re going to go on Dragons Den. This is amazing. And the next question was obviously when [00:00:05] when is the airing or when is the filming. It was a I [00:00:10] think it was a Friday and they said it’s on Thursday. So we had essentially 5 or 6 days. Oh my goodness. [00:00:15] And I was going for the work trip. And so and at this point we had no grasp of our numbers [00:00:20] or the business plan or anything. It was just like three of us going at it. We had a couple. We had one [00:00:25] employee or two employees. We had no idea what we were doing. We were just trying to grow. And [00:00:30] we basically sat in a boardroom for three days and kind of worked out our numbers. I was calling my friends [00:00:35] who were working at KPMG as accountants being like, what is, what’s the profit if like if [00:00:40] this is our revenue and this is our what’s our margin as.

Payman Langroudi: One of the best pitches [00:00:45] ever, though.

[VOICE]: This [00:00:55] is mind movers. Moving the conversation forward on [00:01:00] mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts [00:01:05] Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:01:10] everyone! Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. Today we [00:01:15] have a budding entrepreneur who I had the pleasure of meeting at a founders dinner. Levi [00:01:20] Levenfish, who is one of the co-founders of Perfect Ted, a company that produces [00:01:25] Europe’s first matcha powered energy drinks. For those of you that are watching on YouTube, [00:01:30] you can see Paiman’s got it right in front of him. The business was created alongside his brother Teddy and his [00:01:35] wife. Is it Marissa? That’s correct. Yeah. That’s correct. Great. And [00:01:40] ultimately, they had a mission to provide a natural, clean alternative to typical energy drinks using matcha [00:01:45] as the primary ingredient. Levi is an extremely successful [00:01:50] entrepreneur who inspired me during our dinner, and I thought it’d be incredible to hear about his journey, because I [00:01:55] know a lot of dentists want to know about how you get to where you have got to, especially at your age. You [00:02:00] very kindly said that me and Payman were entrepreneurs, were on different generations. But you know, it took [00:02:05] us a little bit longer. But I’m really looking forward to delving into your journey, so welcome.

Levi Levenfiche: Thank you for having me. [00:02:10]

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. So I always like to start from the beginning, and I know you told me, but I want [00:02:15] my audience to hear. So let’s talk a little bit about your backgrounds, where you grew up and what [00:02:20] you were doing before the brand was founded.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, cool. So I grew up in [00:02:25] north London, north west London. Same. I’m local. Um, not [00:02:30] that exciting of a childhood. Um. Went to UK’s rival school to Payman. He was at Highgate [00:02:35] and I guess grew up healthy playing football. I’m one of four [00:02:40] boys, um, very close to my brothers. Um, one lives in the US now. [00:02:45] One is my co-founder and the other one actually just moved to the US last week, so we’re very close family. [00:02:50] Um, I moved to the US when I was 18. I didn’t know [00:02:55] anyone there, but I got into Penn in Philadelphia and it was [00:03:00] an amazing opportunity, chiefly because it’s a great school, but also because my parents didn’t go to university. [00:03:05] And so growing up, the whole thing was education, education, education opportunities that they didn’t have. [00:03:10] They wanted me to take up. So I went to the US at 18, studied there [00:03:15] for four years, worked in New York for a year, didn’t get my visa, got deported, moved [00:03:20] back to the UK, Covid hit. At this point I was long distance with my then girlfriend, [00:03:25] now wife Marissa. She was in New York, she’s American. I was in London, and [00:03:30] during Covid she decided to move over and do a masters at Imperial. She moved in to. [00:03:35] I was living with my brother Teddy, who was also my co-founder, and we had such a good setup, [00:03:40] Bachelor pad. It was just I mean, obviously I wasn’t single, but it was epic. Yeah. And [00:03:45] it was just the two of us and we were just like during Covid, just a great time.

Rhona Eskander: Um, [00:03:50] basically you were having parties without anyone knowing why?

Levi Levenfiche: No comment. [00:03:55] But, um, Marissa moved, which was amazing. [00:04:00] We’re very excited about her moving, but it came with like 12 suitcases of clothes and shit, [00:04:05] and that kind of changed everything. So no more partying or [00:04:10] undercover partying. And, um. Marissa started her masters at Imperial. [00:04:15] Teddy was working for Bain as a management consultant, and I was working [00:04:20] at the time in real estate, private equity, and we were all working from [00:04:25] home. Marissa was working kind of part from home, part at Imperial, and we [00:04:30] started the business at our kitchen table.

Rhona Eskander: I love that before we delve into the business, [00:04:35] there’s a few things that I’ve picked up on which I think were really interesting, that your parents came [00:04:40] from a background of not having gone to university, but were very keen for you to go to university. Why [00:04:45] do you think that was? I mean, did they they did they struggle when they were growing up, and [00:04:50] did they feel that they were perhaps not given enough opportunities because they didn’t go to university [00:04:55] 100%.

Levi Levenfiche: So my grandparents came here as Holocaust survivors with nothing and [00:05:00] nothing beyond nothing. And so there wasn’t even the opportunity [00:05:05] to go to school, even though my parents are wicked smart. My mum in particular is a genius and she actually works [00:05:10] for the business now, which is amazing. Um, both of them could have gone to university. Um, [00:05:15] but they just didn’t have the opportunities to do so. My mum had to leave school [00:05:20] and support family, and my dad left school at 16. Um, but I think [00:05:25] as a result of that, and in the world we live in today, it’s very different to how they were decades ago. I [00:05:30] think they really wanted us to be, um, educated in ways that they never had the opportunity [00:05:35] to be. So they always push education first, and they never, ever, [00:05:40] um, shied away from giving us opportunities in education, whether it’s through sport or whether it was at [00:05:45] school. It was always like education first, which is probably quite a Jewish trait. And I [00:05:50] think you see the same in Asian families too.

Rhona Eskander: I’m Middle Eastern.

Levi Levenfiche: And Middle Eastern families.

Payman Langroudi: What did your parents do? [00:05:55]

Levi Levenfiche: Uh, my dad is in real estate property, and my mom [00:06:00] raised four crazy boys, and that was it. And she does a lot of charity work. And now, [00:06:05] for the first time in 31 years, they’re empty nesters, and they live [00:06:10] in the same house we grew up in. But they have a lot more freedom now, probably financial [00:06:15] freedom, but also freedom to move around the world and do things that they couldn’t as parents of four boys. [00:06:20] But my mom’s job was probably the hardest job ever, because she just had [00:06:25] four boys running around the house doing a million different things. Breaking bones. Um, [00:06:30] not really breaking hearts, but breaking bones.

Rhona Eskander: I’m sure there were some heartbreaks. [00:06:35]

Payman Langroudi: Did you always think you were going to start a business and or was [00:06:40] there this idea that you were just going to go through the corporate ladder and something changed?

Levi Levenfiche: It’s an interesting [00:06:45] question because when you go into education. Education is so central to your story. Typically, [00:06:50] the back end of education is more institutional corporate life, [00:06:55] whether it’s becoming a lawyer or a doctor, whatever it is. So all [00:07:00] of I mean, me and my brothers all started in corporate and so did Marissa. I went [00:07:05] into real estate, private equity. Teddy went into management consultancy and Marissa started [00:07:10] in real estate, private equity as well. So. And then my older brother works at Facebook or Meta. And [00:07:15] so we were like really quickly pushed towards corporate life, even though my parents in their own right were kind [00:07:20] of entrepreneurs in their own sense because they came with nothing. So I probably have an entrepreneurial [00:07:25] itch in my bones, in my body, through them, but [00:07:30] I don’t know. I also feel like when you come out of university, you have no idea what you’re doing. And I [00:07:35] had no idea what I was doing. And my dad was always like, you don’t need to know what you’re doing. Just learn, absorb, [00:07:40] be a sponge. And that’s kind of how I feel when we hire people now, is they don’t need to necessarily be [00:07:45] the best in the world in their field, particularly if they’re young individuals. They just need to be really keen to learn [00:07:50] and grow. And that’s kind of how I felt when I left school.

Rhona Eskander: So my question is, [00:07:55] though, after I had them pushing so hard for an education and usually an education, as you said, does lead to [00:08:00] a more corporate job, something that is very risk averse, financially stable. [00:08:05] How did they react when you suddenly were like, hey Mom and Dad, I’m going to leave this really secure situation [00:08:10] and, you know, have a Start-Up and like, live on the sofa for a bit.

Levi Levenfiche: Um, we managed [00:08:15] to get some financial security because I was living at home a bit, but we were well paid working for American [00:08:20] firms. Um, and we weren’t, you know, although [00:08:25] the business has raised very little money and we didn’t have a massive trust fund to just build whatever [00:08:30] business we wanted, we had some financial security from savings that we we’d built up. And [00:08:35] the business wasn’t just like all of us quit our jobs and just, like, start. It was very much a work [00:08:40] in progress. And actually, Marissa was doing her masters, so she had time to [00:08:45] build out the business. Teddy resigned before I did, and then about. [00:08:50] I actually only joined the business full time about six months ago. Oh, wow. So although the business [00:08:55] is coming up to three years old, I worked essentially two jobs for the first two and a half years. Mhm. So [00:09:00] it was me making money and funding the business, um, with my paycheques. [00:09:05] And I think on Dragons Den, Teddy referred to me as maybe it was Peter Jones referred to me as Sugar [00:09:10] Brother. That’s what I was. I was just I was a sugar brother. I was running the business. [00:09:15] It’s cool. We’re fine. It’s all good. And that was my role. I mean, besides doing all the admin bullshit in [00:09:20] the business that, you know, couldn’t be done because Teddy and Marissa were doing a million other things. That was my job. [00:09:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, we were exactly the same. I mean, I stopped the other three continued being dentists, [00:09:30] and then they funded the whole first three [00:09:35] years of enlighten. Well, that’s what.

Rhona Eskander: Happened with Paula, right? As in, like, all of us have been working as dentists [00:09:40] as well as funding the business of that as well. And I think it’s really, really, really challenging. [00:09:45] Um, because you also read stories about how people completely quit their job Uber, Airbnb, [00:09:50] whatever, and then kind of live on a sofa on baked beans and like, this is it. This is how it’s got to work. I [00:09:55] want to rewind a little bit though. So let’s talk about the business. How how was the idea [00:10:00] born. And let’s talk about how that all started. And the name.

Levi Levenfiche: The name is an interesting [00:10:05] one. The name is probably less exciting than everyone thinks. Everyone’s like the name, the name. But I’ll tell you the real story about the name. [00:10:10] The business started because it was a confluence of forces, but where kind of [00:10:15] matcha comes into our lives? Is that Marissa? My wife has ADHD and anxiety. [00:10:20] So you. So she’s she’s neurodiverse. Um, and she was drinking a lot of [00:10:25] coffee, working in finance, um, at university, in the library, late at night, drinking a lot of [00:10:30] coffee, a lot of Red bull. And eventually it was just breaking her body down. She has jitters, anxiety crashes. [00:10:35] I mean, if you when you drink Red bull or coffee, how do you feel?

Rhona Eskander: I [00:10:40] feel pretty bad. I’ve actually been going. I stick to matcha and mushroom coffee, to be [00:10:45] honest. And again, it’s just because of that slow release. I don’t enjoy it. I feel actually really [00:10:50] anxious when I’ve had I can’t I cannot drink espresso. I can’t even drink a strong coffee or an Americano, to be [00:10:55] honest. Well, I used to.

Levi Levenfiche: Drink a lot of coffee and actually, as I didn’t have any issues with it, but [00:11:00] Marissa got on to matcha because a friend introduced it to her and then she was hooked. It changed [00:11:05] her life, and as a result, I think she pushed it onto myself and Teddy, and we got [00:11:10] very into it. And when we all moved back to the UK, there was no matcha. I [00:11:15] mean, there was a Pret, had matcha, but it was not very good. And no other high [00:11:20] street cafe chain had matcha. And the small independents that did were using really low quality matcha because there wasn’t [00:11:25] a lot of education around matcha. And it’s a premium product, so you can put it on a menu for like £5, £6. [00:11:30] Um, but the products themselves were really, really bad. So we had no matcha. [00:11:35] We were working long hours, we needed caffeine, so we just started buying our own matcha [00:11:40] from Japan. And that started as like, okay, let’s buy a sample here or a sample there to actually importing [00:11:45] like kilo bags of matcha for ourselves. And then we probably ordered too much at some point and said, [00:11:50] you know, if we’re getting this really good matcha and there’s a gap in the market because typically we [00:11:55] feel like the UK is a couple years behind the US, and matcha is massive in the US. Why [00:12:00] don’t we try and sell this to cafes, which we did. And that kind of leads us to here [00:12:05] and now. We’re the largest matcha brand in Europe as a result of that.

Levi Levenfiche: And it’s just [00:12:10] kind of been a crazy whirlwind ride. But it’s it wasn’t as clear cut as like, let’s quit our jobs. Let’s [00:12:15] start a matcha brand. It was we use this authentically. People are going to use this, are going to need it. So [00:12:20] let’s fill that gap. And then the name we we had a branding [00:12:25] agency which um, which [00:12:30] basically putting the packaging together at the very beginning we ended up actually we, we fired [00:12:35] all agencies ever. So we don’t need agencies anymore. We do it all in-house. Marissa taught herself graphic design, [00:12:40] but the one thing they did design is the logo. And we [00:12:45] essentially were going into production and needed a name, and we didn’t have a name and [00:12:50] the names they were giving us, we didn’t like. So we always liked brands that had names, [00:12:55] human names in them because we thought you could relate to them, whether it was, um, Tony’s Chocolonely, [00:13:00] for example, the chocolate brand or Nutty Bruces like an alternative milk brand. [00:13:05] There are so many out there. We always just felt like those brands resonated with us as human beings. So [00:13:10] we looked through our names. Levi was taken by the denim brand, so that was out [00:13:15] of office. It’s like Levi’s. So that one was done. Marissa, bless [00:13:20] her, like the name just doesn’t really roll off the tongue. And then Ted was there’s Ted as gender [00:13:25] neutral. Everyone knows a Ted. You probably got a teddy bear.

Rhona Eskander: The Ted. Yeah, the famous [00:13:30] teddy bear. The one with Mark Wahlberg.

Levi Levenfiche: Exactly. But you might have a dog called Ted. You know someone called Ted. [00:13:35] Like, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Such a funny story. Like a weird. You could have picked any name, right? Yeah, but.

Levi Levenfiche: But everyone [00:13:40] knows Ted, right? So. And then we were like, okay, Ted. I mean, we were like, let’s [00:13:45] put something before Ted. It could have been like, Reunite Ted or Handcraft Ted. [00:13:50] And we were like, we always say perfect. Like, if you were to say to me, like, how’s the dress? It’s perfect. [00:13:55] Yeah. Me too. So I just say, perfect, Ted. And that was it. And we just went with it. And I think the lesson learned is that. And you guys [00:14:00] probably see this in your businesses. The name is probably the most relevant thing. Yeah. It’s what you build around [00:14:05] it and how you position it.

Payman Langroudi: I agree. I mean, if McDonald’s was called Starbucks, then [00:14:10] we’d all be talking about Starbucks burgers, you know? Exactly.

Levi Levenfiche: What does McDonald’s really mean?

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. [00:14:15]

Levi Levenfiche: What does Starbucks really mean?

Rhona Eskander: I would have to disagree with that, actually, because I think that sometimes [00:14:20] brands that have a person behind it become more personable to people. [00:14:25] So if you think about even like, I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to a podcast with Joe Malone, but Joe Malone said one of her [00:14:30] biggest regrets in the world was actually calling the brand her name because now that she no longer owns the brand, [00:14:35] people still massively affiliated with her and it no longer really reflects who she is and what she does. [00:14:40] And I think that is interesting. But people resonate with Jo Malone because you think of a woman [00:14:45] that really knows and she’s really homely. So I definitely think and I think that is more personable than [00:14:50] The White Company, for example, you know, which, you know, arguably does a similar sort of thing. So I think [00:14:55] there is something about a name and as you said, a personal name that helps people [00:15:00] resonate, especially those that buy into people for sure.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Which is which is [00:15:05] what they were going for. But yeah, but you know, the people McDonald’s was a guy.

Rhona Eskander: He was a guy. Kentucky [00:15:10] Fried Chicken, he was a guy, wasn’t he? Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But what I’m just saying is that the brand [00:15:15] itself is much less important than what the brand stands for.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, totally.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, totally. [00:15:20] Why is perfect head a match or an energy brand? There’s nothing that says. Yeah, and we actually had [00:15:25] we at the beginning. You fight with that, you’re like, okay, hang on. Should we change the name? Yeah. And we almost did, I think a couple [00:15:30] of times. But there’s bigger issues in a business than an engineer.

Payman Langroudi: Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: So you [00:15:35] had unbelievable success from the beginning. How did [00:15:40] you manage that? You know, as two people that have also had start ups themselves, it’s so [00:15:45] rare to have that astronomical growth from the beginning. How did that happen? Do you want to talk [00:15:50] to us a little bit about that? And, you know, any advice that you might want to give people that do want to start [00:15:55] something?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, I think the advice is always just start. Yeah. But we did have we [00:16:00] do have did have unbelievable success. But there’s also the stuff behind [00:16:05] that that people don’t see. There’s walking around Camden [00:16:10] or Shoreditch.

Rhona Eskander: This is when you first start. So I’m talking about embryonic stages products at the beginning. [00:16:15] Then what happened?

Levi Levenfiche: Well right at the beginning when we had this match, like we were walking around cafes trying to sell it, [00:16:20] and you have to just like guys walking [00:16:25] around with backpacks with cocaine bags full of matches, trying to sell it to cafes? Yeah. And I’m telling you to fuck [00:16:30] off and get out. Yeah. And we look like idiots with literally egg on our face. And that [00:16:35] is a really dark place. Because Teddy’s looking to quit his job. He’s just turned down his spot [00:16:40] at Harvard Law School. I’m working another job, so we’re just like, what are we doing? And [00:16:45] then I think the advice is get really good at being rejected. [00:16:50] I was in sales, so I was pretty used to rejection, but get really good at being rejected because at [00:16:55] the beginning it’s just pushing a ball up a hill and [00:17:00] people don’t see all the the stuff at the beginning. Same with your businesses. I’m sure there [00:17:05] were late nights and times when you were like, fuck this. Yeah. And now, on reflection, everyone [00:17:10] just sees that success. It’s like that quote about Lionel Messi. It’s like it took him 20 something years [00:17:15] to become an overnight success. There’s so much in the background that people don’t see all the hard work, all the graft. [00:17:20] So one of.

Rhona Eskander: My favourite quotes is, I don’t know if you’ve seen it because someone says, I can’t believe I went to [00:17:25] the doctor or the dentist, or spoke to a lawyer for 15 or 20 minutes and they charged that much and they [00:17:30] says, you’re not paying me for the years, you’re not paying for the time, you’re paying me for the years. And [00:17:35] I really liked that. I was like, because people fail to recognise that. To become an expert in [00:17:40] your profession, you need to be a master of your trade. Takes years and you’re paying for the years, not necessarily the [00:17:45] time, you know. Yeah, and I really like that. Have you seen.

Payman Langroudi: That? Um, you know, the guy from Nvidia? [00:17:50] No. Jensen. They asked him, what would you have if you could go back [00:17:55] and start again? What would you have done differently? And he said I wouldn’t have started Nvidia.

Levi Levenfiche: Really.

Payman Langroudi: And you [00:18:00] know, it’s like the biggest company in the whole world.

Rhona Eskander: Why did he say that?

Payman Langroudi: If you if you knew the pain and [00:18:05] hassle and shame and nightmares he would have had to go through, he would have never done it.

Levi Levenfiche: People [00:18:10] ask us all the time, if you sell the business and start something else, what would it be? And the number one answer is always not [00:18:15] a food and beverage brand because it is so difficult. It’s so saturated, it’s so competitive. [00:18:20] Yeah. And we have no experience in it. So there are so many issues you have to learn. There’s so much learning. [00:18:25]

Payman Langroudi: What was the first moment where you thought there’s an inflection, like from total [00:18:30] struggle to we might have something here. What was the moment that that comes comes to mind?

Levi Levenfiche: Um, [00:18:35] so we launched in our drinks in [00:18:40] October of 2021. So just under [00:18:45] three years ago. And we there was so much struggle to get to the point where we [00:18:50] had the drinks physically, you know, and we were launching at London Coffee Festival in Shoreditch [00:18:55] and we had the set and the set because we had no money to build a set was just the cans. [00:19:00] We just built Ikea CD shelves and put the cans in them and it looked good. So we’re like, [00:19:05] that’s the set. Um, and it was that first trade [00:19:10] show when people started coming and being like, oh, like matcha. Like, I’ve heard about matcha, matcha is interesting. And then [00:19:15] I remember one distributor who we now work with still came [00:19:20] up to us and gave us their business card. And they said, please get in touch. We think what you’re doing on [00:19:25] the healthy energy side has legs. That was just like the most real moment for us, because somebody besides us [00:19:30] and our parents who were like thinking we were really special, believed in us. Um, and then [00:19:35] off the back of that, we launched into Holland and Barrett very, very quickly through him, not [00:19:40] through not through the distributor.

Levi Levenfiche: They saw us on social media. So we’re putting out social media posts, really exposing [00:19:45] ourselves, making ourselves from the beginning, from the beginning, making ourselves, like, really look stupid and just [00:19:50] putting ourselves out there while all of our other friends are working corporate jobs and probably [00:19:55] not embarrassed about their lives in the public, we’re putting ourselves out there, which is really difficult [00:20:00] thing to do. It’s really exposing. And then Holland and Barrett found us through our social media, and now [00:20:05] Holland and Barrett. These products just launched into Holland Barrett. They’re one of our biggest partners and they’re amazing for us. So [00:20:10] those two points were really an inflection. But I guess if you reflect on your business, I’m sure it’s the same with you. With [00:20:15] you two, you just never know where the winner is going to come from. You just never know who the person you speak to is going to introduce [00:20:20] you to somebody Or so it’s like you got to increase the surface area of your life by just doing as much as you possibly can [00:20:25] and being at as many places as you possibly can, but also just like taking the risk and taking the punt, I. [00:20:30]

Rhona Eskander: Think, you know, there’s people also really underestimate exposure. And I think one one [00:20:35] thing that many people fail on, or the reason why they don’t start, is because they’re so afraid [00:20:40] of what other people think. And I think you have to be prepared to [00:20:45] have people laugh at you, to do things imperfectly and to fail and not care about that. And [00:20:50] social media is a massive step for a lot of people, a lot of people, particularly professional [00:20:55] people, because we’re designed to kind of be like, you know, you’re white collar, [00:21:00] you’re this, you’re proper, and you don’t want to be seen as somebody that’s like an influencer in a [00:21:05] way. But it’s that exposure because, as you said, you don’t know who’s watching you. You don’t know how many people [00:21:10] can resonate with what you’re doing. Or they might be like, oh, I actually see [00:21:15] what this person is about. And I think that’s really, really important. But you built.

Levi Levenfiche: A social following, So think about you at the beginning. [00:21:20] Yeah. And like us now, because we have nowhere near as many followers as you as an example. But [00:21:25] it’s not even like you’re putting out content and there’s hundreds of thousands of people who are loving it and are inspired by [00:21:30] it. You know, we put out stuff every day, even from now, from the beginning. [00:21:35] And you just it’s just you don’t know who’s going to interact with it. You don’t [00:21:40] know if it’s going to do anything for your business. And you get your friends, people who you think really [00:21:45] are your closest friends, making like kind of snide remarks at you, saying like, lol at your [00:21:50] LinkedIn or lol like, thanks for the inspiration. That’s really that’s really hard to hear [00:21:55] when people take the piss out of you because you’re putting yourself out there for something bigger. Um, and [00:22:00] that sucks.

Rhona Eskander: But I think that just narrows. It shows you, you know, for the people that first [00:22:05] of all, are too afraid to do what you’re doing, and it shows who really do want to see [00:22:10] you win. I think that’s really important. We had another guest on here last year, a guy [00:22:15] that’s an influencer. Really successful influencer, Henry, and he was saying exactly the same thing because when [00:22:20] he started producing like fashion and fitness content as a guy, he was getting, you know, the piss [00:22:25] ripped out of him. People were like, what the hell are you doing? Like, you’re walking around topless. But he had and now he has a massive following. [00:22:30] He does really well. He gets huge brand collaborations. And I really think that those people that waste [00:22:35] time making fun of what you’re doing is because they just can’t do it themselves. You know, we.

Levi Levenfiche: Had a really [00:22:40] interesting. So Steven Bartlett was in our office about [00:22:45] a year ago, maybe like 11 months ago, and we just had our youngest team member join. [00:22:50] A guy called Max who had. No, I don’t think he had a LinkedIn at the time. And he was [00:22:55] 18, really smart, just left school, wanted to go into business rather [00:23:00] than go to university, even though he I think got three stars in his A-level. Really, really smart guy. Um, [00:23:05] so we took him on and he was crazy enough to join us. And Steven was in the office and we introduced [00:23:10] him to Max. And Steven is obviously an inspiring entrepreneur. And Max said, can I ask [00:23:15] you a question? Steven said yes. Max said, I want to build my personal brand [00:23:20] like you have and build a social following, but I don’t have LinkedIn. I have a few hundred [00:23:25] followers on Instagram. What would be your number one piece of advice for someone who wants to put themselves [00:23:30] out there, but is too nervous to do so because they’re scared they’re going to get judged by their friends and their [00:23:35] family.

Levi Levenfiche: And Steven’s advice was kind of what I just said was just start. And so actually, the impetus [00:23:40] for what Max has built, which I’ll come on to, is Steven said to him, if you [00:23:45] talk about consistency firstly and building the habit, if you post every working day for [00:23:50] the next year. He shook his hand on it and it was on camera and everything. I’ll fly you to LA [00:23:55] with with Steven for two weeks to do podcast stuff and just to hang out [00:24:00] with him and his team and Max, who’s like an 18 year old impressionable guy. He’s like, oh my God, that’s unbelievable. [00:24:05] Max hasn’t missed a post any weekday in the last ten, 11 months. [00:24:10] He’s coming up to 12 months, so Steven better book his flights or whatever. Yeah, but Max has built a social following [00:24:15] that’s huge on LinkedIn. And now people who are interested in the brand often find it through Max. [00:24:20] And it’s the power of social that that really can have on your business. But it’s all about starting and [00:24:25] letting go of the inhibitions of the people that are judging you.

Rhona Eskander: Linkedin is a really interesting one. I just [00:24:30] started posting actually last week randomly. I was like, I feel like I should just do LinkedIn. I’m really good with [00:24:35] consistency because I’ve always believed that consistency takes you to places that motivation can’t, and that most [00:24:40] important thing is just showing up. Atomic habits is one of my most favourite books. [00:24:45] Yeah, exactly, because sometimes I will go to the gym for like 20 minutes and do a half arsed workout. But the most important [00:24:50] thing is, is that I turned up right? Because it’s the habits that build what you what you [00:24:55] want. So it’s really funny because I’m trying to tailor like my LinkedIn posts [00:25:00] in comparison to my Instagram. Have you noticed I’ve started doing stuff and like I’m making much more like businessy [00:25:05] and like entrepreneurial. And I’m really enjoying it actually, because sometimes with Instagram I feel that pressure to like, look a certain [00:25:10] way, be under the kind of like glamour stuff going on. Sometimes a post flops and you’re [00:25:15] like, oh, this. But actually LinkedIn, I kind of have I don’t care as much. Yeah. So I think it’s [00:25:20] a really interesting platform. Now, you’ve mentioned Stephen a few times, and I think one of the most important things [00:25:25] we want to discuss today is your Dragon’s Den journey. I’ve done Dragon’s Den as well as you know, [00:25:30] and I want to hear about how you got onto the show, what your experience was [00:25:35] planning, etcetera, and what happened. Sure.

Levi Levenfiche: I wasn’t on the show. Ah, okay. I was the lucky one who didn’t go on. [00:25:40] So during Covid, I think there was a maximum of two people could go on at any one time. Yeah, that was what happened with us. Yeah. [00:25:45] Yeah. So I was obviously I actually was in Ibiza for work. Sure. [00:25:50] I actually was the the proof is that I was I was speaking at an event and my Apple [00:25:55] Watch was going crazy because I knew they were on the show and I couldn’t answer the phone, so [00:26:00] I had to call them afterwards. But they were calling me with the BBC producers filming the FaceTime, so I missed [00:26:05] my I missed my minute of glory, but it’s okay. So Teddy and Marissa went on the show. We [00:26:10] spoke to them.

Rhona Eskander: So they did. They get head hunted because researchers contacted us and said, do you guys want to come [00:26:15] on it?

Levi Levenfiche: They got headhunted by the BBC and then went through like the basic diligence stuff [00:26:20] of sending us your numbers, your story, etc. this was in year one. We were too early. They [00:26:25] said, you’re still a bit early, come back next year. And by the way, Marissa is American, so they [00:26:30] have Shark Tank. But as a Brit, Dragons Den is like iconic. You know, it [00:26:35] was what we watched with our family. Yeah. And like Levi roots reggae reggae sauce [00:26:40] is like just like part of my childhood, you know? Um, so [00:26:45] we kept building the business. A year later, we said, let’s get back in touch with them. We emailed the producer. He [00:26:50] said, great, like, send me some stuff. We did the whole the whole thing again. And then they went silent. And [00:26:55] then it must have been in June of 2021. [00:27:00] No, 2022. Um, we get an email that says, hey guys, [00:27:05] are slots open? Think you’d be great for the show. Can you come in? Oh my God, we’re going to go on Dragons [00:27:10] Den. This is amazing. And the next question was obviously when? When is the airing [00:27:15] or when is the filming. It was a I think it was a Friday and [00:27:20] they said it’s on Thursday. So we had essentially 5 or 6 days. Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Levi Levenfiche: And I was going for [00:27:25] the work trip. And so and at this point we had no grasp of our numbers or the business plan or anything. [00:27:30] It was just like three of us going at it. We had a couple. We had one employee or two employees. We [00:27:35] had no idea what we were doing. We were just trying to grow. And we basically sat in a boardroom for three [00:27:40] days and kind of worked out our numbers. I was calling my friends who were working at KPMG as accountants [00:27:45] being like, what is, what’s the profit if like if this is our revenue [00:27:50] and this is our what’s our.

Payman Langroudi: Margin down as one of the best pitches ever.

Levi Levenfiche: Though it did. But [00:27:55] I think that’s like we didn’t I think it was because firstly Marissa and Teddy were very polished. Marissa, especially [00:28:00] because she’s American, just sounds better. But I think it was we prepared as [00:28:05] much as we physically could in 3 to 4 days, and we just knew everything inside out, no stone unturned. [00:28:10] They really, really practised. But they were in there for an hour and a half, I think an hour and 45 minutes, and they show 14 [00:28:15] minutes on TV and they just crushed it. They did so well, and I think it was their energy more than [00:28:20] their answers. They just brought good energy.

Payman Langroudi: They got five offers.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah. And they took money on the show from Steven [00:28:25] and Peter and then ultimately post pricing with you guys post [00:28:30] den. There’s like way more stuff. And we ended up just doing a deal with Steven Bartlett. [00:28:35]

Rhona Eskander: So it’s interesting hearing all this back because I’ve got so many memories. So we were actually featured on Plastic [00:28:40] Free July firstly on ITV this morning, my friend Sarah Jostle had featured Parler. [00:28:45] Then we got a message from the researchers. Then we had to do a rehearsal on [00:28:50] camera. Recorded really? First of all. Yeah. And then they were like, okay, you’re through through from round one. [00:28:55] Then they said to us, only two of you can go on the show. And it [00:29:00] was decided that it was going to be me and Simon who you met, and we’d practised our pitch [00:29:05] like a million times, and it was super polished and we decided who was going to talk about what. My sister [00:29:10] even designed this incredible set. She’s an architect and a set designer. So we could hear the dragons [00:29:15] like, what is this? Because it was just this unbelievable set. We were also [00:29:20] separated because of Covid. I’m sure it was the same with your brother and Marissa, because we [00:29:25] couldn’t be in the same room. So our dressing rooms were, like, separate. Can you imagine? And then they made us wait around for three [00:29:30] hours. Then after that, then after that, we went in and we were grilled for about [00:29:35] two hours inside, um, inside the boardroom. Do you want to call it a boardroom? I feel like [00:29:40] what I’m talking about The Apprentice, but I was going to call it The Den, okay? And we actually had two [00:29:45] offers, and it was interesting because I don’t think it was necessarily the pitch, [00:29:50] but I think it was that they found toothpaste tablets in particular to be so niche. And [00:29:55] it seemed to suit Deborah because she’s super vegan, and also Tash, who was also at the time [00:30:00] because he was one of the dragons, you know, have this vitamins. Yeah, exactly. So [00:30:05] it was really, really interesting. And we turned down the offer.

Levi Levenfiche: But [00:30:10] that’s let’s be honest, be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Do you regret that?

Rhona Eskander: Have you seen the bit like it went really viral [00:30:15] on TikTok? Someone randomly reposted this on TikTok. Like they found it where I was like at the back [00:30:20] of the wall and I was going to Simon, but just go in with a lower offer. And then he was like, ruins, it’s too much. Have [00:30:25] you not seen you remember that bit at the wall, right? And so anyways, it went viral on TikTok recently again after like 4 or 5 years whenever [00:30:30] we did it. And so you do regret it. I really wanted to take an offer, to be honest [00:30:35] with you. I really, really, really, really, really wanted to take an offer. And I think also all the buzz, [00:30:40] as you know, around the show, when we had aired, [00:30:45] because it took a year to air or whatever it was, nine months, the sales that we that were created [00:30:50] were even more than the investment that we had actually asked. It’s astronomical marketing, [00:30:55] you know, you have no idea the power of that show.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s like 4 million people.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, crazy. And [00:31:00] I think, you know, it was one of our best financial months. But also on top of that, [00:31:05] the amount of investors that came forward as well and the interest around that time [00:31:10] was unbelievable. And I think that it gives you a false sense of security in a way, [00:31:15] because you’re like, everyone wants us. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But did you go into it sort of more soberly [00:31:20] than I guess, in a way. You guys thought that the deal wasn’t good enough. Right.

Rhona Eskander: Whereas [00:31:25] it wasn’t, though. I mean, they wanted.

Payman Langroudi: It’s never good enough. But maybe they went into it thinking, okay, we’re going to give [00:31:30] away a big chunk of our company for less money than it’s worth. I don’t know, but we’re [00:31:35] going to get the marketing out of it.

Levi Levenfiche: I don’t know what your business was at the time, but we we were doing, I think [00:31:40] the the month we went into film, we were doing like it may have been [00:31:45] £10,000 that month.

Payman Langroudi: So it was very early.

Levi Levenfiche: It was early. So we went in and we we were similar. [00:31:50]

Rhona Eskander: I think we were also the very baby stages or we were doing maybe a little bit more, but we were.

Levi Levenfiche: We were I [00:31:55] mean, we went in for the TV, we said to ourselves, we own 100% of the business. [00:32:00] We’re very early on. Let’s go in with a valuation that is realistic, realistic, reasonable, [00:32:05] and we’ll get offers. Because if you get the number one thing they push back on is valuation. So if you go in like a £3 million [00:32:10] valuation, it’s like you’re just isolating yourself. Exactly. So you can always not do the deal afterwards. So we went [00:32:15] in million pound valuation did a deal at 500,000. And [00:32:20] I mean it was just it was kind of irrelevant how much the business we gave away because it was [00:32:25] a percentage of nothing essentially at that point. And we ended up not taking the money from Peter [00:32:30] because they didn’t want to dilute 10%. And in between the time that you filmed [00:32:35] and the negotiation, we actually only signed with Steven the day it aired. It aired on March [00:32:40] 2nd, I think. Um, and we signed on March 1st with Steven or something. So it took nine [00:32:45] months of negotiating. So what was his percentage? He took 5% of the business, and it was for 20 [00:32:50] 500 £0. And that 5%, the second [00:32:55] 5% for Peter in that negotiation period. Tesco approached us. Waitrose approached us. So [00:33:00] the whole thing about Peter, which was distribution and scale, we felt like we could achieve on [00:33:05] our own through the relationships we built with the supermarkets. Whereas Stephen’s whole thing was brand and [00:33:10] it is brand and he’s amazing at it and that’s been a great part, you know. But the relationship [00:33:15] for our business. So would you.

Rhona Eskander: Say one of the best decisions that you made was taking Stephen solely as [00:33:20] a dragon, because you recognised early on that it was about the brand versus the scale? [00:33:25]

Levi Levenfiche: 100%, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So how much does Stephen contribute? [00:33:30] I mean, can you call him any time you want? Do you meet with him once a month? What’s the story? [00:33:35]

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s less formal than monthly meetings. Although I think we probably should have monthly meetings. I think [00:33:40] it’s just we have. We’re all over the place. He’s travelling, we’re travelling, we’re working, he’s working. It’s [00:33:45] very much as though I think we’re friends. So we WhatsApp, I’d say every day. Every other day [00:33:50] we’re in a WhatsApp group and it’s just non-stop. It’s just ideas throwing around. Stephen isn’t [00:33:55] the investor. We don’t need an investor in Stephen to be digging into our [00:34:00] financials. And really, he’s not the one that is driving pure financial [00:34:05] decisions. He’s a marketing genius. He’s a brand genius, and he really supports us on on that. So for example, [00:34:10] we did the brand collaboration with the guy called, um, the hardest geezer, who’s the guy who [00:34:15] ran the length of Africa. I don’t know if you saw him. He was he was he was big on TV. We sponsored him and his run [00:34:20] across Africa. Stephen brought that to us. So Stephen really opens a lot of doors for us on the brand side. Connections, [00:34:25] connections. He’s very involved and he has really, really good marketing ideas. And he is [00:34:30] just he’s a massive supporter of the brand. He uses it authentically. We’re now the sponsor to diary of a CEO. [00:34:35] So it’s, you know in his cup on the podcast. It’s what he drinks. Him and his [00:34:40] girlfriend use it. His team love it. Um, and so it just is a really authentic partnership. I think [00:34:45] maybe with you guys on the show, I don’t know how authentic it would have been. [00:34:50] For example, I mean, actually, Tish and Deborah both have kind of like vitamins and sustainability angles, but I think authenticity [00:34:55] and a partner is massive.

Rhona Eskander: So ultimately, what they wanted, like you said, my [00:35:00] business partners are very sassy and au fait, especially with the financials. So [00:35:05] they went like really knowing the numbers and really realistic and asked for [00:35:10] £70,000 for 9%. And they basically said that they would give £70,000 [00:35:15] for 30%. That’s a lot, you know. I mean, that made them the majority [00:35:20] versus us because there was already three of us 30%. Was it? Correct. Yeah. [00:35:25] So it became almost impossible to negotiate down because even if we wanted to negotiate [00:35:30] down to like 15, that was almost by half. Uh, Deborah loved it. She [00:35:35] really loved it. And I think she would have been an incredible partner. And obviously, Touker, when we [00:35:40] left the den, was like, you dodged a bullet with that. That’s when we went off the camera. Like they showed it in the episode. [00:35:45] And then Deborah turns around. There was a really iconic moment, and Deborah turns around and goes, no, we didn’t, [00:35:50] You know, I haven’t got what those two have got as an in with me and Simon. She was like, you know, they’re young, [00:35:55] they’re this, they’re this. So we obviously had impressed them with our professionalism, with the way [00:36:00] that we had done the pitch, etc.. But it’s such a new idea. And although matcha is niche, [00:36:05] it was toothpaste. Tablets were like super, super niche and it still requires people to consider [00:36:10] changing a habit of a lifetime. So it was quite a difficult thing. But as I said, you know, [00:36:15] we rode this huge wave, um, with the brand off Dragon’s Den. I [00:36:20] think Dragon’s I always say to young entrepreneurs that have got a good brand, I’m like, if you can get on the show, do [00:36:25] it 100%, 100%, 100%.

Levi Levenfiche: I met with a brand. We get calls I think, from we [00:36:30] get LinkedIn DMs from brands who are going on the show or Stephen has just invested in on the show, [00:36:35] asking us every question you could consider, because I think quite publicly, Stephen [00:36:40] has backed us as a business quite heavily, and we’ve aligned ourselves very closely with Stephen. [00:36:45] So we’re kind of like the Stephen Bartlett brand from Dragons Den, which is something we’re trying to grow out of because [00:36:50] I think we’re bigger than that now in some sense. We want to graduate from that in some sense, [00:36:55] even though it’s amazing marketing for us. But we get calls from all the dragons and investments [00:37:00] who say, what’s it like to work with Stephen? I’m negotiating this. Um, do you have any advice? So [00:37:05] we’re very interwoven with Stephen’s team and his life and everything.

Rhona Eskander: Let’s [00:37:10] talk a little about the growth. Right. Because you said you’re not afraid to shy away. Um, you know, from the financials, [00:37:15] etc.. So has there been a steady growth? Have you had dips? What’s happened in terms of the growth [00:37:20] period? Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s there hasn’t been a dip. Thank God. Touch wood. [00:37:25] That’s wood.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: Um it’s just been it was like this [00:37:30] then Dragon’s Den. We did, I think £400,000 that month. Wow. The month that Dragon’s [00:37:35] Den aired. So. March 2023. So about [00:37:40] 18 months ago. Um, last month, we just did 1.3 million. Wow. So [00:37:45] the business has kind of just really scared super quickly. Um, and I think we’ve done an amazing job with the sales team. [00:37:50] We’ve done an amazing job of getting distribution and building out the platform. And but really, we’ve had a lot of [00:37:55] support from the retailers. Tesco has really backed us on the Barrett, Waitrose and other [00:38:00] other supermarkets have really backed us and given us the opportunity when we’ve just been an unknown brand. So it’s a combination [00:38:05] of leveraging all the Dragon’s Den hype and the Stephen piece, and then institutionalising [00:38:10] it by building a team and putting it into physical retail. But for example, there are areas of our [00:38:15] business that are still small and still could scale, such as our e-commerce. [00:38:20] I don’t know what you guys are like on e-commerce, but we’re still fairly new to the game.

Rhona Eskander: So when you’re talking [00:38:25] about just DTC and all that kind of thing, Amazon and the website. Yeah, I think it’s challenging. I mean, we’re [00:38:30] definitely in a different I think we’re in a different period of time at the moment anyways. You know, I [00:38:35] think there has been a recession. I think that people are buying differently, more conscientiously. These are premium [00:38:40] products, you know, that we’re selling.

Payman Langroudi: Um, if I was going to buy this, I would buy [00:38:45] it off Amazon though. Why? Ease. That’s where I would buy stuff like this.

Levi Levenfiche: So [00:38:50] it’s interesting. Amazon is now I haven’t got a stat to back this up. But Amazon is where people go. At least [00:38:55] I go to search for for goods right? So if I need like a clothes rack [00:39:00] or I need washing tablets, I don’t go on Google and type in washing. I go on Amazon.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe it’s [00:39:05] the I’d have to persuade my wife to buy it from Ricardo, and she wouldn’t [00:39:10] buy enough of it or the right amount of it. I would just take it upon myself and I don’t know how to use Amazon. I would go [00:39:15] straight to Amazon. Yeah, it is easy for something like this. I actually I used to buy something like not like this, but like a [00:39:20] healthy fizzy drink. Yeah. From Amazon. They went they went under a thing.

Levi Levenfiche: The powders do much better. [00:39:25] It’s tasty. Really tasty. I’ll send you some more.

Rhona Eskander: But I say give me some.

Payman Langroudi: Explain this [00:39:30] to me regarding brand. And you said you’re the biggest in Europe. So [00:39:35] I take it there’s a bigger one in the US?

Levi Levenfiche: Uh, I don’t know. I mean, the US is just a much bigger market, [00:39:40] so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So the question of, you know, like you have to worry about it. I guess you [00:39:45] guys have to worry about it too, right? With yours, if it works out and it’s working out, pretty [00:39:50] soon there’ll be a copycat.

Levi Levenfiche: There are copycats already?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah. And some of those copycats will have much [00:39:55] bigger distribution than you guys already have. I mean, maybe it might not be a Coca Cola, right? [00:40:00] They’re a bit slow, but some other some other food and beverage brand that’s already [00:40:05] in all the. Yeah. Is that what keeps you up at night?

Levi Levenfiche: I mean, we have enough distribution. It does, but we have enough distribution [00:40:10] now where I think.

Payman Langroudi: It’s its own thing.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s its own thing. And we can’t just be switched [00:40:15] in and switched out. I think a bit.

Payman Langroudi: Like, you know, the coconut water brand. Yeah. I [00:40:20] don’t buy the copycats, man. I buy the original. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: The Vita.

Levi Levenfiche: Vita Coco.

Payman Langroudi: Vita Vita.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:40:25] way prefer innocent. Copycat.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a copycat.

Rhona Eskander: No, it tastes better.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but I just don’t like copycats. [00:40:30]

Rhona Eskander: Better.

Levi Levenfiche: Okay, buy the original.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: We, um, we [00:40:35] from a business perspective, and I’m sure it’s same with you guys. We’ve built it up so that we we have three [00:40:40] sides to the business. Model. We have the cans, we have these powders that are in retail. And then we also supply cafes, [00:40:45] hotels, restaurants. So anywhere from enjoying the juice we’ve got a big partnership with around the world, [00:40:50] um, to Black Sheep Coffee as an example, to Soho Coffee to all these chains. [00:40:55] These guys.

Payman Langroudi: Had existing matcha suppliers of.

Rhona Eskander: Them, didn’t love them, didn’t match us. Quite a lot [00:41:00] of them didn’t. But we’ve ruined the juice. They didn’t.

Levi Levenfiche: But it’s massive for these for these businesses because actually they’re tapping [00:41:05] into something that there’s a massive demand for. And we’re helping people.

Rhona Eskander: Want it, people want it. But it’s also.

Levi Levenfiche: Really hard to get [00:41:10] in good quality at good price. And because we’re doing this, this and this, we [00:41:15] have the scale to bring down the cost of matcha. If you were to go into a supermarket and buy matcha three [00:41:20] years ago, you could probably buy a good matcha £18.

Rhona Eskander: I was paying for a little pot.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, maybe more than that. Even if [00:41:25] you go to Planet Organic or.

Payman Langroudi: Selfridges whole Foods I paid.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, £30, £35, £40. So [00:41:30] that is £10.50 in Tesco, that first pouch, the other one is about £14 in Holland [00:41:35] and Barrett it’s really accessible. It’s inexpensive. That’s because we’ve managed [00:41:40] to keep the price down because of scale. And that’s why we’re trying to make matcha more accessible [00:41:45] for everyone, as opposed to going in at a really premium price point. So we’re the best product in the market at the lowest price. [00:41:50]

Rhona Eskander: Are you guys paying yourself a salary? Dividends. How is it working?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, so we’ve just started [00:41:55] paying ourselves a salary. Um, we not dividend, but we loaned [00:42:00] money to the business at the very beginning.

Rhona Eskander: So directors loans.

Levi Levenfiche: Directors loans, paying the loans back and then taking [00:42:05] a very small salary. Yeah. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And if I want to copy this. So it’s a bit [00:42:10] unfair question to ask you, but to.

Levi Levenfiche: Copy.

Payman Langroudi: Made in Holland. Right.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s [00:42:15] made in the UK but we distribute in the Netherlands as well. Oh I see. In theory, yeah, you could reverse engineer that. But that’s [00:42:20] why the most important thing quite easily right, is brand. Yeah, not that easily because matcha itself is a really hard [00:42:25] product to put in a can. We found that because we had a bunch of production issues. But [00:42:30] yeah, it’s I mean it’s it’s water matcha [00:42:35] fruit juice. It’s sparkling water with fruit juice and matcha. So really, someone like Coke with a massive marketing [00:42:40] or NPD budget could reverse engineer that in the same way that I could reverse engineer that smoothie you’re drinking [00:42:45] or Coke, right? Because it’s all out there. It’s just a matter of brand at that point. [00:42:50]

Rhona Eskander: I think also as well, there is something to do business. Same to do with like authenticity. You know, when we talk about parlour [00:42:55] as well, one of the big questions is, well, isn’t Colgate going to copy you? And I said, yeah, but it’s like McDonald’s saying they’re doing [00:43:00] a healthy salad. You know, these big conglomerates have been doing it for so long and doing it wrong for so [00:43:05] long, you’re not going to really believe the authenticity when they come out with something. And Colgate did try a toothpaste [00:43:10] tablet and it flopped, you know. So it’s the same with was it dollar shave Club. Dollar shave club. [00:43:15] Dollar shave club. You think about them as well. Then Gillette tried to do their own sort of version. It didn’t do very well. [00:43:20] So I think you can always say, yeah, these people will do it, but it doesn’t matter. Interestingly, [00:43:25] I was walking past, you know, Chelsea Dental Clinics on the Fulham Road, you [00:43:30] know, where the Marks and Spencer’s is. So I was walking to Marks and Spencer’s. I need to go pick up something. [00:43:35] And I looked across the road and there was a new dental practice and they’ve called themselves Dental Clinic Chelsea. And [00:43:40] I was like, that is hilarious. It’s a new one. Yeah, it’s a new one. And I said [00:43:45] to my I said to my husband and he was like, well, when people are copying you, you know you’re doing something right. Like that’s [00:43:50] the way you’ve got to see it.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s the, uh, it’s the highest form of compliment, isn’t it? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:43:55] many people are you?

Levi Levenfiche: We are 19 people, which feels like a [00:44:00] million people to us because it was 18 months ago, maybe 19 months ago, that we were three of us, round [00:44:05] of like an office. Our office was the size of this table, and we’ve now outgrown [00:44:10] our current office and moving office in probably six months or so. And it just [00:44:15] keeps growing. And the problems change from, you know, worrying about [00:44:20] product or cash or distribution to team problems. I’m dealing with the livelihoods of [00:44:25] like 19 individuals, which is scary.

Rhona Eskander: He knows we know the same. [00:44:30]

Payman Langroudi: And what about on the sort of fulfilment and all of that. Is that all outsourced? Um. [00:44:35] Warehouse? Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: So we outsource all the warehousing, and we use a three pl. So third party logistics [00:44:40] group in the UK and the Netherlands. Um, we try and be smart [00:44:45] and outsource what we can, but we like to keep everything in-house in terms of design, brand, agency, videography, [00:44:50] photography, marketing, etc. because every time we’ve used an agency, they just don’t get [00:44:55] it, like we get it. And you said.

Payman Langroudi: You had cameras from the beginning. Yeah. That’s what they call it. Building public [00:45:00] or something. Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: We’re like building in public. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: So why did you do that? Did you know to do that? Did you?

Levi Levenfiche: Because we didn’t [00:45:05] have a marketing budget to spend hundreds of thousand pounds on Amazon or Google ads [00:45:10] or meta ads. So we were like, let’s just film everything, and our marketing channel [00:45:15] or our marketing positioning can be like founder led, team led, instead of doing UGC, which is user generated [00:45:20] content. We did UGC, which is employee generated content, and that’s just been our marketing positioning. And [00:45:25] I think what that’s evolved to is we’re no longer like a product. We never were. We aren’t a [00:45:30] product led brand. These are the products. But actually we’re a purpose [00:45:35] led, purpose led or we’re led by the brand versus the product. So [00:45:40] people will look at our social media feed, don’t see the products really. They see people lifestyle [00:45:45] faces. Um, because ultimately we’re trying to evoke a feeling in people [00:45:50] when they’re using our products, not just like stick a product in. So that’s why when I, when I go on a social media account of [00:45:55] another food and beverage brand, it’s 99% of the time, just like someone holding a can on the beach, [00:46:00] someone drinking matcha like in their kitchen. Whereas we’re all about how it makes you [00:46:05] feel, not about the product itself. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Do you do influencer marketing? Do you believe in influencer marketing?

Levi Levenfiche: We’ve [00:46:10] done hardly any to date. The nice thing about matcha is that influencers like matcha. [00:46:15] And so we do a lot of gifting, but we don’t do any paid influencer marketing. It is something we’re starting to look at [00:46:20] fine.

Rhona Eskander: So we’ve all had a very nice story so far, and I’m going to dig a little bit deeper. [00:46:25] Let’s do it. Yeah. Have you had any really low moments during this journey, or your [00:46:30] life in general, where you felt like your mental health had been suffering, or anyone, perhaps in your company, [00:46:35] and how you dealt with that?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah. So we start [00:46:40] with the personal. It is very hard to work with your brother. When you [00:46:45] said you worked with your brother.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, no, I’m breaking the rules as well. Yeah, wife and best friend. [00:46:50] Wife and best.

Levi Levenfiche: Friend. So, like, it’s. I don’t know if you work with siblings or your husband. [00:46:55]

Rhona Eskander: No, I actually don’t. But go ahead. You’re lucky.

Levi Levenfiche: So I work [00:47:00] with my wife and my brother, and up until about two months ago, we all lived together. [00:47:05] And so the way the number one argument that would come in our respective relationships would [00:47:10] be, um, because of work. So Teddy would have a perspective on something [00:47:15] and Marissa would have perspective on something, and they’d be very different because they’re very different people [00:47:20] and they have very different views. And I’d be stuck in the middle and I’d have to basically pick. So if I pick [00:47:25] Marissa and her perspective. Then Teddy’s [00:47:30] like, we’re not going to the gym in the morning. We’re not, you know, fuck you. We’re not talking. And he’ll [00:47:35] be pissy with me if I pick Teddy. I have to get into bed with [00:47:40] Marissa that evening, and she just, like, good night, you know? You know, this.

Payman Langroudi: Classic.

Levi Levenfiche: Classic. [00:47:45] You know, it’s very difficult to be the one in between two people. And they’re [00:47:50] both very strong, stubborn and strong characters. And so I’m always have been caught in the middle. And [00:47:55] it’s been been really tense moments, a lot of them caught on camera where the business [00:48:00] was. Not going [00:48:05] through trouble. But there are very complex moments in a business where you have to make decisions that are [00:48:10] almost life and death for the business, and if you have two very contrasting views and [00:48:15] I’m caught in the middle, it’s very, very difficult. And so it’s affected our relationships really negatively [00:48:20] as individuals. And it also has changed how we are. I think Teddy’s probably less close with Marissa [00:48:25] as a friend than he was 3 or 4 years ago now, because it’s very, very [00:48:30] professional and they have to think about how they communicate with each other, because ultimately they’re co-workers first [00:48:35] and probably family second. We spend so much time in the office that we have to be professional with each [00:48:40] other, even when we want to tell each other to fuck off or we want to give them a hug, or I want to tell Teddy I [00:48:45] love him. Whatever, any of these things, you can’t really do it in the office because you’ve got to be professional. So I think it’s been a really [00:48:50] difficult thing is creating separation, creating boundaries between work life [00:48:55] and all of it.

Rhona Eskander: I think, you know, you know, as I reflect on that, I think one of the most difficult [00:49:00] things and you hear it all the time from entrepreneurs is the aspect [00:49:05] of like going into business with friends. So I can’t even imagine what it is for family. And I think [00:49:10] you’re right, because the dynamics that you have within a friendship are completely different to when [00:49:15] you get into business with somebody, and I think that’s really challenging.

Payman Langroudi: I totally I’d say it’s worth it. [00:49:20] I’d say it’s worth it in the end. Yeah. Because, you know, I think.

Rhona Eskander: With friendships it’s more.

Payman Langroudi: Difficult. I see Sanjay every day [00:49:25] now. Yeah, it’s nice and it’s a wonderful thing. But you.

Rhona Eskander: Work and you understand how you guys.

Payman Langroudi: Work. But. [00:49:30] But all our conversations are work. Conversations. Yeah, yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: Work isn’t left in the office, is it? [00:49:35] Like I’ll be. We’ll be at dinner with my family. Sorry. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And but another important question, [00:49:40] and it’s something I regret in a way, is that when we set this company up, that [00:49:45] was at the time when we set it up, Google and everything were just just sort of starting and that touchy [00:49:50] feely way of working that everyone thought was a ping pong table and all of that. Did he do all [00:49:55] of that? We’ve got yeah, we’ve got beanbags. The whole thing. But forget that. That’s superficial [00:50:00] crap, right? But I had this feeling that as a company, the feeling [00:50:05] would be the same as as a family. Yeah. And we did that. But I think [00:50:10] it was an error. Yeah. And when you talk to real, proper business people, they [00:50:15] talk about pro sports team. Yeah, that’s how we think. Much better way of looking at it.

Rhona Eskander: Like why? Explain. What’s [00:50:20] this.

Payman Langroudi: Sport. Because pro sports team is the best person in the job. Doing the right job for [00:50:25] for the best, for the, for the company, for the good of the company.

Levi Levenfiche: They’re off.

Payman Langroudi: They’re out. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Do [00:50:30] you know.

Payman Langroudi: When it’s a family here, that’s.

Levi Levenfiche: But we’re moving towards that. Like, to be honest, it’s [00:50:35] quite a sad thing. We have treated our employees and our team like family. And it gets you. Only [00:50:40] gets you so far because then the boundaries are are blurred. And they’ll make a comment or you’ll make a comment [00:50:45] and you’ll see them outside of work or whatever it is, and it just becomes awkward. It’s a lovely. [00:50:50]

Payman Langroudi: Thing. It’s a wonderful thing. It’s nice to.

Levi Levenfiche: A point, but.

Payman Langroudi: To a point we’re really.

Levi Levenfiche: Trying to scale. We’re trying to go from 1.5 [00:50:55] million to 3 million a month next year. You’ve got to be ruthless and brutal [00:51:00] and cutthroat. And for someone like me who is sweet, I [00:51:05] don’t know if I’m sweet, but I’m like, I have. I have like, don’t demasculinization. I’m like [00:51:10] having a I have an emotional conscience. Right? It’s very difficult for me to tell people they’re not good enough, [00:51:15] or to get rid of people or to move people out of the business. It’s very, very difficult.

Rhona Eskander: So has that played on your [00:51:20] mental health as well? You know, because you’ve had to take on that role of having to like fire people [00:51:25] or to break bad news. Do you think that’s had an effect on you?

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah. Giving feedback is the hardest thing in the world, because [00:51:30] I have to turn around to somebody and say what you did or how you’ve been [00:51:35] or your performance over the last X weeks, months, whatever is bad, it’s not [00:51:40] good enough. Obviously, you communicate it in a way that makes them feel better, but giving really harsh feedback is [00:51:45] super important. You’ve got to be transparent. You’ve got to act like a sports team because ultimately, my [00:51:50] I don’t owe it to the team. I [00:51:55] owe it to the larger company. So no individual is bigger than the team is what I’m trying to say. So if someone’s not [00:52:00] good enough and it’s affecting the company’s growth, the company’s trajectory, that’s not good enough. You’ve got to put the company first. [00:52:05] So, for example, if and the truth is, I say this to our team the whole time, if I’m not a good enough managing [00:52:10] director, or if Marissa is not a good enough marketeer or head of brand, [00:52:15] if Teddy’s not a good enough ops and sales person, we’ll hire above them. Because my life is invested [00:52:20] in this business, all my life savings are invested in this business. I’m not putting that at risk because of [00:52:25] I don’t want to upset someone.

Payman Langroudi: But it happens. You know, it comes to appraisals. Someone [00:52:30] says something like, my partner’s lost his job, my mortgage [00:52:35] is doubled, and the reasons for a for a pay rise [00:52:40] come down to family reasons. I need more money. I need more money. [00:52:45] Yeah, and a family situation. You really empathise with that person. You think, well, this person’s been here for [00:52:50] 12 years. Yeah, they need more money. You know, I’ve got to be loyal. They’ve been [00:52:55] loyal to me. I’ve got to be loyal back to them. When it’s a sports pro sports team, well, it’s the [00:53:00] best person in the job to do the right thing. And meritocracy when it comes [00:53:05] to pay rises and so forth. And meritocracy, in the end, is what’s correct for a company. But, you know, [00:53:10] the funny thing is, I really wanted it to be a family. Yeah, I really did, you know, and [00:53:15] it’s tough. Your practice is very much like a family.

Rhona Eskander: Kind of. I was about to say like, the thing [00:53:20] is, is that I think people get really obsessed with the idea of culture within company. And I think it’s like the super [00:53:25] in vogue thing to be like, it is all about the culture. And like you said, it’s great, it’s important, [00:53:30] and culture is important 100%. But like you said, you know, you have to [00:53:35] recognise that dynamics have to be healthy, but not so that it interferes with the production [00:53:40] of work. And that’s a really.

Payman Langroudi: Hard needle we’re dancing on, you.

Rhona Eskander: Know. But that’s but that’s, that’s the dance [00:53:45] that you’re constantly playing. I think, you know, the dance that you’re dancing in my business. [00:53:50] Like I’m quite a lax BOC boss in the sense that, like, I’m very chilled. I’ve just recently got diagnosed [00:53:55] with ADHD, so now they understand like my like, certain like ways of like thinking. And [00:54:00] I’m, I’m not the, you know, archetypal like CEO that’s going to be [00:54:05] like super strict and everything like that. But I really I think I’ve always known [00:54:10] I’ve had ADHD even though I’d never been diagnosed. I think someone five years ago had said it to me, and then everyone [00:54:15] around me is like, you’ve definitely got it. And I think that I’d managed it subconsciously as a child. And as you know, [00:54:20] like a lot of women are very good at concealing it because I always knew from a young age that the way that [00:54:25] I manage it is delegation. So like, I am the biggest advocate for delegating [00:54:30] where you can. Marissa. Yeah. So people are like, how do you manage like a team of 30 people run [00:54:35] a podcast and, you know, do all your social media everything. [00:54:40] And I just, you know, I’ve actually I’m just really good at picking the right people for the [00:54:45] job. You know, like, now I have an amazing operations manager. She’s expensive. [00:54:50] But I was like, unless the building’s going on fire. Yeah. Do not stress [00:54:55] me out about anything. Because I realised I was so incredibly stressed all the time. And now, like, my work life [00:55:00] balance is just amazing. And she basically runs the show, you know, essentially with me doing [00:55:05] all the stuff that I’m good at, the branding and the marketing and everything like that.

Levi Levenfiche: Hiring’s that’s the thing about hiring [00:55:10] is at the beginning, you just basically pick from the people who are crazy enough to join you and who you can [00:55:15] afford, which is usually young people out of university. Yeah. And then as the business gets to a point where you can actually afford the best people, [00:55:20] you have to, it’s really difficult because you look at your team and you say, this person’s [00:55:25] been with us, as you said, really loyal for the last 2 or 3 years, and they’re brilliant at their job. [00:55:30] But are they the person that’s going to take us from here to 30, 40, 50 million in sales next year? [00:55:35] And if they’re not, then you’ve got to be cutthroat and you’ve got to make decisions. And that’s where egos [00:55:40] can I find it.

Payman Langroudi: One of the hardest parts of business. Yeah. Where you’re telling someone that [00:55:45] you’re going to let them go, even though they’ve been fantastically loyal and put [00:55:50] their life on the line. And I asked her this, you know, from Pearl eye, [00:55:55] and he’s had $2 billion companies, right? And I asked him, I [00:56:00] said, you know, have you ever had to do that? And he went, every single person I’ve ever fired is that person. [00:56:05] Yeah. Because by the time I get to fire them, they would have been fired [00:56:10] ages ago if it was for any other reason, you know. And it’s just like, you know, I lost a bit of [00:56:15] innocence there. Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: It’s really hard.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got investors now? Like further [00:56:20] investors.

Levi Levenfiche: So we’ve only raised money once beyond Dragon’s Den. And that was from [00:56:25] Steven’s fund. So Steven Bartlett’s got a fund called Flight Fund, and the investors behind it are mostly [00:56:30] exited entrepreneurs. So Albert, who’s the founder of grenade, the protein, um, [00:56:35] James Watt, the founder of BrewDog, is an investor in Steven’s Fund and many other people. He [00:56:40] invested £1 million into our business in February, March of this [00:56:45] year. And otherwise it’s been we’ve been profitable since very, very early on. So I managed to build [00:56:50] it through cash flow and through the savings we had, and we haven’t had to dilute too much. And we [00:56:55] own 90% of our business. And so.

Payman Langroudi: So have you now got those [00:57:00] professionals on each. You haven’t hired those people yet.

Levi Levenfiche: Working on it. It’s [00:57:05] really hard to find. I want to find the best people in the world. But then [00:57:10] it’s difficult because you want to find people who are also happy to roll their sleeves up and not think that [00:57:15] they’re the best, and that they have room to grow, and they can also get stuck in. [00:57:20] You don’t want to hire someone who’s above it. Like I’ve spoken to, for example, we were hiring in. We’ve just hired [00:57:25] a head of marketing. She’s brilliant. She starts in five weeks. But I looked at a bunch of people before [00:57:30] that, and they maybe had great backgrounds, like training from Mars or Danone or Estee [00:57:35] Lauder, like, amazing CVS. But actually, when you get to that point in your career where [00:57:40] you’ve done like ten years, you think you’re above all the stuff that comes in a Start-Up. I don’t [00:57:45] want that. We need people who like, believe and want to be there and want to be the first people to take the bins out. [00:57:50]

Rhona Eskander: They need to be malleable as well, because I think also we’ve we’ve had people on the team that have had this incredible [00:57:55] experience in these CVS, but they don’t also recognise that as Start-Ups, you don’t have the budgets [00:58:00] that Estee Lauder do. You don’t have the budgets that all these other companies do. So I think that’s what made that [00:58:05] what is what can make it really challenging as well for people that come into Start-Ups, because they’re not used [00:58:10] to the budget aspect of things, which has also been quite an interesting thing to navigate. [00:58:15] So what’s the future for Perfect Head?

Levi Levenfiche: The future is we’ve [00:58:20] just launched these products here in front of us in Holland and Barrett. So this one flavour is off screen, but [00:58:25] there’s seven new flavoured matcha powders. All it is is, um, ceremonial [00:58:30] grade matcha, um and natural flavourings from coconut sugar and coconut [00:58:35] milk to make it froth. It’s very straightforward. You put it in milk, you shake it and [00:58:40] it’s a matcha latte so that my favourite flavour is the mint, uh, which is [00:58:45] available online. But vanilla, for example, has been around for like two weeks. It’s an amazingly online. Um, [00:58:50] we also are about to launch. They are available online and [00:58:55] in Holland and Barrett Nespresso pods. So the whole concept is making matcha easy. Matcha made easy. [00:59:00] Love it. People don’t like drinking matcha because it’s either difficult to make at home or they find it expensive.

Payman Langroudi: I bought [00:59:05] Nespresso pods 2 or 3 years ago. It just kept exploding in my machine.

Levi Levenfiche: I’ll send you some. [00:59:10] It didn’t explode.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, I’m. Honestly, I have a lot of espressos because of the machine. [00:59:15] Yeah. Because of how quickly. You know, that’s.

Levi Levenfiche: The whole thing. People want to make magic. They want to whisk it. But we [00:59:20] brought the price down so it’s accessible from a price. And now we’re bringing down, like, the simplicity of how to produce it. I made a matcha [00:59:25] in here before we started, and the whole concept is bringing matcha to the masses, [00:59:30] make it more accessible and then growing the business. I want to double the business in the next 12 months.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. [00:59:35] And have you thought about an exit yet?

Payman Langroudi: Um, it’s a bit early on. The dark.

Levi Levenfiche: Days? [00:59:40] Yeah. In the depths of winter, when you’re like, fuck this and you’re really tired [00:59:45] and it’s 9:00 at night and you’re in the office and you’re dealing with some shit problem. Um, yeah. [00:59:50] You’re like, can someone come and just buy us? Um, but I think that happens. I [00:59:55] think we’ll start getting approached if we keep growing at the same rate in the next 12 months, if anyone’s listening and wants to [01:00:00] buy us, DM me. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay.

Levi Levenfiche: I think [01:00:05] it’s I mean, we play with this, the concept of founders. Otherwise we should grow this [01:00:10] business for the next 20, 30 or 40 years as our baby, or whether we should grow it for 3 or 4 years and sell [01:00:15] it. So, I don’t know, I think we’re just riding the wave and see where it goes.

Rhona Eskander: I love that so much.

Payman Langroudi: And [01:00:20] the the concept of you get the caffeine high but you don’t [01:00:25] get the caffeine wine.

Levi Levenfiche: So matcha has an amino acid in it called l-theanine. And [01:00:30] L-theanine regulates the way in which caffeine enters your bloodstream. So with coffee, it just like I [01:00:35] mean, I used to drink coffee like you take one sip and you’re, like, buzzing. Yeah, same with Red bull. Um, [01:00:40] match has l-theanine. So you take, you drink it and it kind of regulates how it goes into your bloodstream. And [01:00:45] instead of getting this, you get like a smoother caffeination, which means that you don’t move up and down. Yeah. Which means you don’t [01:00:50] have the same crash. Right?

Payman Langroudi: Oh I see.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s it’s changed a lot of people’s lives. And the messages [01:00:55] we get from people who have ADHD or anxiety, it really is having an impact on people’s lives. And those messages that we get [01:01:00] from moms who have given matcha to their teenage daughters who are starting university but can’t [01:01:05] study because of their anxiety, or their and their and their issues with coffee are super meaningful [01:01:10] to us. So on those dark nights at 9 p.m., when you want to just go home and cry and [01:01:15] you get a DM on Instagram from a mum with that kind of story, it makes it all worthwhile. [01:01:20]

Payman Langroudi: Now, I noticed that for you, you know? Ag1.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Of course. They’re gigantic. Right? [01:01:25] Ag1 is now on some of their ads they’re selling. Don’t get the high [01:01:30] and the drop of on other ads. They’re going for anti-aging. Yeah.

Levi Levenfiche: Defy age. [01:01:35]

Payman Langroudi: Defy on other ads. They’re going for just what they are like, which is a supplement thing. And so that sort [01:01:40] of side sideways move away from and we saw it with the dirty. [01:01:45] Yeah. I mean they’ve got one coffee for skin, one for alertness, one for brain.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve [01:01:50] been saying this for a really long time and no one ever believes me. Okay, so for the past like six [01:01:55] years, I had also said exactly the same about Parler. People [01:02:00] are driven by different values onto why the the [01:02:05] business is the way that it is. You know, for example, like Parler, our primary focus was the environment [01:02:10] being like plastic free and what that does. And also [01:02:15] we recognised as we developed the product that people were really interested [01:02:20] into the anti-aging and health benefits that people really they [01:02:25] prefer. Sadly, I think human beings to invest in themselves first and foremost [01:02:30] than like the environment, for example. And you know, when we talk about like the naturally [01:02:35] whitening element or the anti-aging element of the hydroxyapatite, [01:02:40] you know, especially for my platform, because I see that people buy into that, you know, they really, [01:02:45] really do invest in that. And there’s been a huge movement as well within dentistry [01:02:50] as a whole, where these biological dentists are coming on and, you know, making these huge [01:02:55] claims about the connection of certain products, the mouth [01:03:00] and the body, the whole body as a whole. And some of it is true, but they’re really like monopolising on it. [01:03:05] So I think, you know, there is there is a huge interest that human beings are interested in their bodies. Can [01:03:10] I ask you two questions?

Levi Levenfiche: If you have time. Yeah. Purple toothpaste. I get hit with ads the whole time, is it? [01:03:15] I use purple things in my hair when I was blonde at work.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a it’s a brilliant product. It’s a brilliant product [01:03:20] because the moment you open it, it clicks well, the moment you put it on, you see something. [01:03:25] But 30s later, it’s all gone.

Levi Levenfiche: So it’s rubbish.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t say like, for example, [01:03:30] I don’t think it causes harm. I think, you know, that’s the most important thing. But ultimately, will it make your teeth white whiter? [01:03:35] What people don’t like hearing is 30s. What people don’t like hearing is it [01:03:40] is professional whitening products. Done done done. Enlightened. Like, you know, it’s professional whitening products. The only thing that’s going to get [01:03:45] your teeth truly, truly white. Anything else will help. That will. All that stuff helps remove stain, but it’s not [01:03:50] going to make any kind of huge difference. Um.

Levi Levenfiche: On dentistry, by the way. So I had my [01:03:55] teeth. I told you this when we had dinner. I had my teeth bonded the top ones, [01:04:00] and it changed my life. My teeth weren’t even that bad before. Mac. I told you [01:04:05] who was on the show was my orthodontist growing up. He’s a great guy. Gave [01:04:10] me braces. Teeth are perfect. I didn’t like how they looked. They were just a bit small in my mouth. Super [01:04:15] self-conscious about it. I got bonding. I mean, I’m smiling so much more. [01:04:20] I’m way happier. It has a massive impact. So, like, the work you guys do on smile is so [01:04:25] important. And I honestly can’t recommend focusing. Who was.

Payman Langroudi: The dentist? Who did the bonding?

Levi Levenfiche: Oh, [01:04:30] was he here? It’s on. No, it’s on Fitzroy Street. I don’t know what you [01:04:35] said. Yeah. Uh, image dental. It’s called. She’s a really nice woman. [01:04:40] I live around there. So I went in there and I gave her the business and. Super nice.

Payman Langroudi: Image dental. [01:04:45]

Levi Levenfiche: Image dental. Check it out. Check out these guys first. But, um, it makes [01:04:50] such a difference to your mental state. Being able to smile and not be like.

Rhona Eskander: You know what? I think, [01:04:55] you know, we’re really lucky because we are in a game where we recognise it has such an impact. And I [01:05:00] did a post about this on LinkedIn, but I had a vision about ten years ago [01:05:05] of really displaying a different idea to the media and the press about what dentists do, because [01:05:10] at the time, the narrative was constantly about us being butchers or ripping people off or [01:05:15] this negativity. And I was the first dentist, one of the first dentists to really approach [01:05:20] the media and press and journalists and be like, hey, actually, this is what we do. Can I offer you this treatment? See how you feel? [01:05:25] And they recognised that it was a buzzy commodity, but also it made people feel good at the same time. [01:05:30] And I think we’ve really recognising it. Conversely, though, there is a real problem with body dysmorphia [01:05:35] as well, and people have become really obsessed in every way, shape and form, you know, with their teeth, [01:05:40] etc.. So that’s, you know, been a challenge. But teeth is.

Levi Levenfiche: Like a really accessible. It’s kind of like a no brainer. [01:05:45] It’s like it’s so with body image issues and social media is awful for it [01:05:50] because we are like pedalling this perfect body that really no one has. And it’s [01:05:55] hugely AI generated anyway. But with teeth it’s I mean, the cost aside, if you can afford [01:06:00] it, it’s a no brainer because it’s it’s not doing permanent damage to [01:06:05] your to your body. You’re not having to like go to the gym for a year to get that body you as long [01:06:10] as you look after them, you don’t. There’s not that much maintenance. It’s like a no brainer. I’m obsessed with it. And [01:06:15] and like, I want to get all my other my teeth done.

Rhona Eskander: Great, great. Music. Music. Music.

[VOICE]: Bonuses.

Payman Langroudi: Bonuses [01:06:20] for sure. I’ve got one final question. Anything. What would be your biggest mistake [01:06:25] that you’ve made in this journey? What comes [01:06:30] to mind?

Levi Levenfiche: The one thing that comes to mind is a is a mistake I think we’re making right [01:06:35] now, which I struggle with, is I don’t think we’re [01:06:40] thinking big enough.

Payman Langroudi: It’s always an issue, always an issue.

Levi Levenfiche: I want to think [01:06:45] there are days where I’m like, what are we doing? Why are we worrying about the small things? Like, we’ve got to think bigger. Like. [01:06:50]

Rhona Eskander: Let’s not sweat the small stuff.

Levi Levenfiche: Let’s not talk about 30 million. Let’s talk about 100 million.

Payman Langroudi: Someone [01:06:55] in the business needs to be saying that. And then someone in the business needs to be making sure.

Levi Levenfiche: We had an amazing [01:07:00] girl in finance who keeps us all level headed. But I want to think really big and irrationally [01:07:05] big. Because if you look at the greatest entrepreneurs of all time across any industry, like Steve Jobs, he [01:07:10] was absolutely off his rocker and people would have said, you’re crazy [01:07:15] in what you build. You’re trying to build personal computers that are way more expensive, that are [01:07:20] way more beautiful than anything else, but way more expensive and out of people’s price range. Look what he built, [01:07:25] right? So we’ve got to think differently. Think bigger, think crazy.

Payman Langroudi: Um, where do you think would be [01:07:30] the next move away from matcha? Have you thought of that?

Levi Levenfiche: Uh, in our products, [01:07:35] I mean, we it’s healthy energy on the on the cans of matcha. On on the powders. [01:07:40] I think we’ll look at. Although I don’t really want to because it’s very saturated, like energy [01:07:45] bars. Yeah, I was going.

Rhona Eskander: To say that makes sense, but I haven’t seen matcha energy bars, to be fair. We speak.

Levi Levenfiche: We get approached by [01:07:50] a lot of brands who want to do collabs with a chocolate bar with ombre. We’re looking at a couple other products, but [01:07:55] um, the other thing is like, like matcha. Plus, [01:08:00] what else can you do? The ag model of greens or all in one [01:08:05] supplement? In some sense, that’s something I think supplement will look at. Yeah, we talked about I mean, matcha is very versatile. [01:08:10] We could do it in pills. We could do it in gels. You can do it. Do it in espresso pods. We’ve just launched like [01:08:15] 12 new products. So let’s get those ones over the line and worry about what’s next. And like six months maybe. [01:08:20]

[VOICE]: Amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Levi, it’s been so incredible talking to you. I’m so grateful you took time out of [01:08:25] your busy schedule to talk to us, and I’m definitely going to be ordering a load of [01:08:30] these stuff, so just.

Levi Levenfiche: Yeah, we’ll send you some. Just whatever you need.

Payman Langroudi: Wise beyond your years. It’s nice. It’s nice to hear [01:08:35] how.

Rhona Eskander: Levelheaded, you know, literally like like, how is he? 29 I was a child at 29, [01:08:40] you know. Um, but yeah. Thank you so much.

Levi Levenfiche: Thank you. Appreciate your time. Thanks, guys.