Nutritional scientist Dr Federica Amati shares her journey from aspiring medical student to becoming head nutritionist at Zoe.
She discusses the importance of evidence-based nutrition, the challenges of public health communication, and the complexities of dietary advice in the age of social media.
Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, Amati emphasises the value of consistent, varied eating patterns and the critical role of prevention in public health.
In This Episode
00:00:25 – Introduction and early education background
00:01:25 – Medical school aspirations and pivot to biomedical sciences
00:08:25 – Career transition to public health and prevention
00:16:25 – Journey through hospitality and marketing in New York
00:21:45 – Return to academia and pursuing a PhD
00:23:15 – Balancing motherhood with academic pursuits
00:33:00 – Role at Zoe and nutrition science
00:39:45 – Mediterranean diet and carbohydrate quality
00:56:35 – Social media, nutrition misinformation, and professional responsibility
01:08:35 – Perspectives on weight loss medication
01:09:30 – Vision for the future of nutrition and public health
About Federica Amati
Dr Federica Amati is a nutrition scientist who holds a PhD in clinical medicine research and serves as the head nutritionist at Zoe. She combines her expertise in public health, medical science, and nutrition to promote evidence-based dietary advice. Currently, she holds a teaching role as the nutrition lead in the School of Medicine and works clinically as an AFN registered nutritionist.
[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.
Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome back to another episode of Mind Movers. Today I have an incredible [00:00:30] guest. If you have not seen her, you have been living under a rock. This is Federica [00:00:35] Amati. Did I say the surname correctly? Federica and I go way back. We actually [00:00:40] met when we were 18, back in our university days when I was at Leeds and she was at Edinburgh. [00:00:45] She has. She holds a teaching role as a as the nutrition [00:00:50] lead in the School of Medicine as part of the Map team. She [00:00:55] completed her PhD in clinical Medicine research with an NIH air funded studentships [00:01:00] at the Department of Primary Care and Public Health. She also now [00:01:05] is the head nutritionist at Zoe and everyone has heard of Zoe, the science and [00:01:10] nutrition company, and works clinically as an Ain registered nutritionist with well [00:01:15] founded health. Welcome Federica. Thanks for having me.
Federica Amati: It’s great to be here. Yeah, it’s [00:01:20] so fantastic.
Rhona Eskander: To be here. So, Federica, I want to start from the beginning. [00:01:25] You went to Edinburgh? That’s where we met. What did you study at Edinburgh?
Federica Amati: So I did biomedical sciences [00:01:30] and then my honours in pharmacology. And I was one of eight brave students [00:01:35] who decided to subspecialize in endocrine pharmacology. So I was really interested [00:01:40] in hormones and their impact on health essentially. So that was great, great. [00:01:45] Four years I loved Edinburgh, I had the best time. I never wanted to leave, so I was gutted when I graduated actually. [00:01:50] I loved Edinburgh too. Yeah, I used to spend all.
Rhona Eskander: My time in.
Payman Langroudi: Edinburgh. My sister was there. [00:01:55]
Rhona Eskander: Um, no, my best friend Chekka. So checker and I went to. She went to Edinburgh and [00:02:00] I was so resentful that I went to Leeds, which was like the dark, gloomy, druggy university. And then I went to Edinburgh [00:02:05] and it was all these sophisticated dinner parties. And, you know, I loved that, you know, bougie Rona. But [00:02:10] what I find interesting, Frederica, is that I think that what a lot of people can resonate with is [00:02:15] that your aspirations were to originally be a doctor. Yeah. That’s right. Did you get into medical school? [00:02:20]
Federica Amati: No. So I well, so I did I had an offer to go with my A-levels. [00:02:25] So I had I was supposed to go to Imperial College and had my place there. And it was conditional, [00:02:30] of course, as usual for medicine on me getting all A’s. And I was, um, supposed [00:02:35] to be getting all A’s. Then what happened is my my. So I’m from Italian family, and my grandparents [00:02:40] were living with us at the time, and my grandmother died the day before [00:02:45] my chemistry A-level. Wow. And it was only one paper, [00:02:50] but it was organic chemistry, which I’m sure you did as well. And it’s, you know, a thing, but I was not [00:02:55] in the mood to do it, but I called the school and said, what should I do? Should I come and sit [00:03:00] the paper or should I? And they said, look, we’ve told Imperial. They understand that it’s an [00:03:05] extenuating circumstance. Just come in, just sit the exam and then don’t worry about it. [00:03:10] So I remember I sat in this exam hall and wrote my name on the paper [00:03:15] and then just sat and stared at the wall, crying for the rest of the thing. I had I had nothing to give. [00:03:20] And basically months later, so everything progressed as normal. I was planning to go [00:03:25] to Imperial, and about three weeks before the start of term, I got [00:03:30] a call from my sixth form sort of head office person and said, look, I’m really sorry, but Imperial [00:03:35] have changed their mind.
Federica Amati: And I was like, sorry. Yeah. And they were like, well, they can’t really make an [00:03:40] exception on a chemistry paper because that paper ended up being unmarked because there was nothing [00:03:45] there. I said, it’s you know, I know that they said they could, but they’ve decided [00:03:50] that someone above that decided that it wasn’t something they could do. They couldn’t set a couldn’t set a precedent for it. [00:03:55] And I was so like, oh no. Like, what am I going to do now? Because, [00:04:00] you know, when you want to do medicine, you do like the work experience. I spent my summers in hospitals and done all of that stuff. [00:04:05] And, um, my mom was a doctor, so I kind of thought I had this idea, and I just thought [00:04:10] they said, well, if you want to, you can just reset that one paper in a year’s time and [00:04:15] then come next year. And I was like, no, you know, some kids want to do a gap year. That [00:04:20] was not me. Like, I had no plans to do. But I was like, why would I do a gap year? I just want to crack on. [00:04:25]
Federica Amati: Yeah. And it just wasn’t my plan. So I said, no, I’m not doing that. And I went back to [00:04:30] my school and I said, what can I do? And I spoke to the head of sixth and she said, look, you’ve got an amazing Ucas, Ucas, [00:04:35] Ucas application. She was like, what? What about doing like, what about [00:04:40] medicine are you looking forward to? And I said, I’m really looking forward to learning more of the theory of like how the [00:04:45] body works. She said, why don’t you think about doing biomed science? Because that’s basically what that is. And she [00:04:50] said, you could you could follow the US model and do bio-med science and do postgrad med, which you [00:04:55] can do here as well. I think that’s quite a good idea. So I was like, well, so where’s good for [00:05:00] biomed science? I said, well, the best university is Edinburgh. And I was like, okay, never [00:05:05] been and wasn’t on my plans, but let’s call them. So I literally picked up the [00:05:10] phone and called the admissions office at Edinburgh University, said, hey, like just had this plot twist, [00:05:15] sort of. This is my Ucas number. Would you consider me for a place? And they looked me up and were like, [00:05:20] yeah, great.
Federica Amati: Yeah. You’re. Yeah, definitely. We’ve got space come. Right. So I went home. [00:05:25] Can you imagine my poor Italian parents saying, mum, dad, I’m going to Edinburgh next week. They [00:05:30] were like, oh yeah, I love that. What? They’re like, what do you mean? I was like, got a place. And [00:05:35] they were like, are you sure? I was like 100% doing it. Going. Yeah. So [00:05:40] that was that. So literally packed my stuff the next week. Managed [00:05:45] to find halls like I called the halls up. There was a dropout, so I managed to get a space and went [00:05:50] to Edinburgh instead. And um, best plot twist. So it’s funny [00:05:55] because when you think about your career often it’s it’s for a few people like my brother. It’s a fairly [00:06:00] linear process, but for a lot of people I think it isn’t. And that was the first curve for me [00:06:05] where it was like, that’s not what I planned. It’s not what I thought I was going to be doing. But it turned out so well [00:06:10] for me. Like, I loved Edinburgh, I thrived there, I had the best time, I loved my [00:06:15] university course, my friends and the whole experience. And I actually think, I’m so glad [00:06:20] I went there instead of going to London Uni.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I mean like London Uni. It was funny because for me, I was, [00:06:25] you know, I think like you, when you come from a medical background and even more so [00:06:30] like an immigrant background, it’s like you have to do a vocational degree that, you know, is guaranteed to keep you safe financially. [00:06:35] Payman and I had discussed that, you know, it’s choose something that we know that you’re going [00:06:40] to be safe financially. I mean, I grew up around medicine, and I think the hurdle for me was, [00:06:45] is that I was living in a place of conflict. I loved English and English and philosophy. I was thriving [00:06:50] in those subjects. I had to do chemistry and biology because I wanted to get into dental school. [00:06:55] My aunt was a dentist, so I was like, okay, I’m inspired by that. I was never really that [00:07:00] into medicine, I did that. Um, what was it? You know, you know, at Nottingham University, [00:07:05] they did this kind of like medic, you know? Do you want to be a doctor? Do you know what I’m talking about?
Federica Amati: You just. You have [00:07:10] to. So the ones where you have to sew the orange peel.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah. And they. And they wake you up at, like, 3:00. [00:07:15]
Payman Langroudi: And they wake.
Rhona Eskander: They wake you up at 3:00 in the morning, and then they put you, [00:07:20] like, in a fake ambulance to see. Yeah. And it was I hated everything about it. And I remember they [00:07:25] did these simulations with doctors and they basically gave you a load of symptoms, and you had to try [00:07:30] and work out what the patient had. And I was like, I have no clue. And what I realised very quickly was that [00:07:35] the lack of hands on experience that you had in medicine, and particularly [00:07:40] within the GP experience, isn’t something that I necessarily wanted to do, but my hurdle was also [00:07:45] that I didn’t fit the narrative of what a what a dentist should be. I didn’t look [00:07:50] like somebody that was going to be part of a system, and I had to dial [00:07:55] down who I was. I wanted to go to Bristol. I didn’t get into Bristol. I came to my interview looking like this. And, [00:08:00] you know, being me. And they were like, no, like, she just doesn’t cut it, basically. So then I pretended to be someone I [00:08:05] wasn’t when I went to Leeds and they gave me the job, they gave me the position. But I met a [00:08:10] lot of people at Leeds where their first degree was something like biomedical sciences or something [00:08:15] similar to you, to then go on and do dentistry if they wanted to do it. But [00:08:20] what was the turning point where you realised, actually, I don’t want to be a doctor and I don’t want to do medicine.
Federica Amati: Yeah. [00:08:25] So it was after the biomed degree. I was at this fork where it was, okay, I can either now [00:08:30] apply for a postgrad med role or do something else. And bear in mind, I’d [00:08:35] been doing all these work experiences right? And what I’d done is I had done some like placements in the UK, in [00:08:40] hospitals here, and then I’d done some placements in Italy. And the difference [00:08:45] Wow was very stark. So I when I got to that point, I [00:08:50] had to make a decision. I was like, I kind of if I was going to do medicine, I’d rather do it in Italy because [00:08:55] medicine is very different there. The way we treat patients is very different there. There’s much more continuity [00:09:00] of care. Like you have a doctor that is your doctor and that you [00:09:05] see the same person, right? Which is unheard of. The continuity of care in the UK doesn’t exist really, unless you’ve [00:09:10] got like a very specialist sort of need. And so when it came to applying, then I [00:09:15] remember thinking I was like, should I apply to Italian? I was like, I don’t I’ve never learned in Italian, [00:09:20] I’ve never done. I was at school in Italy for like a year right before we moved to the UK. [00:09:25] So I was like, could I really pick up all the scientific terminology in Italian all of a sudden? Like, [00:09:30] I don’t know if I even could. I don’t even write essays in Italian. So even though I’m completely fluent, [00:09:35] it’s very different doing education in that language, you know? Um, [00:09:40] so I so I was on this thing, so I thought, I’ll tell you what, I applied to applied to Queen Mary’s postgrad [00:09:45] and medicine, and then I thought what I was asking myself, [00:09:50] like, why do I really want to do medicine? Like, what’s the actual driver? Because it’s definitely not being on the wards for [00:09:55] 12 hours a day or and it’s not.
Federica Amati: So I just really want to be helpful. I want to be I want [00:10:00] to do something that’s going to be helpful for people to be like, have a better life [00:10:05] and be healthier. And this is when someone basically came up to me and said, but have you thought about public [00:10:10] health? And I said, well, what’s public health? It’s not exactly. People don’t. Well, people [00:10:15] talk about it now more since the pandemic, but it wasn’t a thing, right? It’s a very small course at [00:10:20] Imperial College. But, you know, basically someone described it to me. It’s basically [00:10:25] population medicine. So you think about how you can improve health [00:10:30] at a population scale. And I was like, that’s really cool. So working more upstream. [00:10:35] And the reason that what triggered that is I did a placement, um, [00:10:40] in Oxford at the hospital there. And one of my one of the days I was [00:10:45] shadowing, I was shadowing the team who was on the dementia ward, and [00:10:50] I met a patient there who was 19 years old and had alcoholic dementia. [00:10:55] Wow. At 19.
[TRANSITION]: Wow.
Federica Amati: And I and because I said, was he doing [00:11:00] on this ward? And the doctors were like, well, he has been a heavy drinker from the age of 12. [00:11:05] Wow. And now his brain, it doesn’t really work. He’s lost. And so [00:11:10] he was on the ward. He didn’t know why he was on the ward as well, which was really sad. So he kept making stories up about why he [00:11:15] was on the ward and he thought he had a girlfriend. He didn’t know. It was really sad. And that moment, that and another patient, [00:11:20] which was a paediatric patient, which I won’t go into because it was so sad. I [00:11:25] just thought the doctors here are doing this work, but it’s so far down the line of damage that [00:11:30] a I actually don’t think. I think after the paediatric patient I thought I don’t actually [00:11:35] have, I don’t have the stomach for it. I can’t do this day in, day out like that. I was [00:11:40] I was so young when I when I did that. I was like 20 when I did that placement, and I still remember it now and it still makes me feel like sad [00:11:45] so clearly. So there’s a level of I have so much respect for people who do this work [00:11:50] and how they can do it, because you see so much sadness.
Federica Amati: And [00:11:55] also I felt like, how can we work more upstream? Like, how can I do something that’s useful a [00:12:00] bit earlier on in the process? Because by the time people come in, I did. I did all sorts of wards, I [00:12:05] did cardio and cardiology, I did the the hepatic ward, like with the hepatology [00:12:10] ward where you see liver patients and it’s like so far down the line. So when someone [00:12:15] said public health to me, I was like, that sounds cool because you get to actually prevent. So [00:12:20] preventative medicine is essentially what my goal was at this point. And so [00:12:25] when it came to that fork in the road, I thought, I’m not going to do post-grad medicine at Queen Mary’s. [00:12:30] I’m going to go and do public health at Imperial College. And so I did the masters there. I [00:12:35] had a really good year. It was really interesting. I learned a lot. Obviously Epidemiologie was brand new. All these [00:12:40] things, and I started to learn about how you can intervene at a public health level [00:12:45] to help people prevent disease. And that was that was it. Then I was like, right, this is this is what I want to do. [00:12:50]
Rhona Eskander: Can I ask you, how was your mum about that? Because obviously, like, you know, you’ve got [00:12:55] I’ve come from a medic, father. Your parents medics. No, no. Yeah. [00:13:00] Um, how do you think that made her feel? How did she react to that?
Federica Amati: So it’s funny [00:13:05] because we immigrated from Italy and it was the same, like lawyer, doctor. [00:13:10] Engineer. Yeah, engineer. Not me. Maths was not my strong suit, but was like.
Payman Langroudi: Sorry, [00:13:15] failure is the other.
Federica Amati: Option.
Payman Langroudi: No, no. Yeah.
Federica Amati: Um, [00:13:20] so when like, biomed science is okay, [00:13:25] sure. It’s a stepping stone, you know. Fine. Um, public health, they were like, okay, so more [00:13:30] W.H.O. route. So then it was like, okay, she’s going to go and work like in a big institution. Now, my [00:13:35] mum was a doctor, but when she moved to the UK, she was one of the founding [00:13:40] members of the EMA. So she was like a big org, sort of, you [00:13:45] know, medicines regulatory. Sure. So she was like, yeah, I can see the W.H.O. thing because [00:13:50] that was now. So she was cool with this so far. And [00:13:55] but she couldn’t see how it was going to be as straightforward as medicine because [00:14:00] medicine is like you do the thing, you get a job, you’re a doctor. Done. Right. So but she was always very [00:14:05] supportive. But I think a little bit worried, like the undertone. Whereas [00:14:10] my dad was more of a bit of a he was a bit of a maverick. He like had his own company. [00:14:15] So he was much more sort of you’ll figure it out. Risk taking. Yeah. He was just [00:14:20] more. Whatever you do, you’ll figure it out. So I got the confidence to try [00:14:25] things out from him and. And the sort of drive to [00:14:30] not fail from her.
Payman Langroudi: You’re now a nutritional scientist. [00:14:35] Interest.
Federica Amati: Yeah.
Payman Langroudi: So after.
Federica Amati: My master’s.
Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So what’s the difference between being a nutritionist [00:14:40] and a dietitian? Okay.
Federica Amati: Good question. Yeah. So no they are different. So [00:14:45] nutritionists are trained in nutrition science. So [00:14:50] whereas dietitians are trained in being clinicians who support diet. So [00:14:55] a dietitian a dietitian works in a hospital. They train in hospitals alongside [00:15:00] the medical teams. And they will support patients who have complex medical needs with [00:15:05] their nutrition. So there’s things a dietitian can do that a nutritionist cannot do and shouldn’t [00:15:10] do. Right. And the reason why registered dietitians are like it’s a [00:15:15] registration. It’s a compulsory registration. You can’t legally.
Payman Langroudi: Body and all that.
Federica Amati: You can’t legally [00:15:20] call yourself a dietitian unless you are actually a registered dietitian. Whereas [00:15:25] with nutritionists, unfortunately, it’s not regulated. So you could [00:15:30] do like a two day course on the internet and call yourself a nutritionist. Or you could do like a [00:15:35] PhD and a master’s in nutrition like me. And so it’s a bit more of a wild West. It’s harder to [00:15:40] to it’s harder to know what who’s who’s doing what.
Rhona Eskander: I think [00:15:45] I think that’s just a wider problem. Like we’ve had that as well. You know, I’ve had psychotherapists on here. And then even [00:15:50] within that realm, you know, there’s coaches or there are people that will call themselves a [00:15:55] psychologist or your therapist. And I think like, unfortunately, [00:16:00] it’s not as heavily regulated as medicine and dentistry like you will. You cannot call [00:16:05] yourself, even if you are an expert at something that you do. If you call yourself a specialist, you’re at risk [00:16:10] of losing your license if you’re not on the specialist register. So like we’re very regulated, [00:16:15] whereas I think this industry is less so regulated. So now you work for [00:16:20] Zoe? Yes. Tell us how that came about and what Zoe’s about for those that don’t know.
Federica Amati: Yeah. [00:16:25] So after my masters, I took a break from academia because it was the [00:16:30] next logical step. Was PhD D or an Mrs.. So like a research masters. [00:16:35] And I was like, yeah, just, you know, I’m not sure. And my supervisor at the time [00:16:40] who was in the Who Collaborating Centre at Imperial, he said, look, [00:16:45] this was the year when there was a big white paper. So the whole of public health was restructured in the UK. It was a bit of a mess. [00:16:50] He was like, it’s not a really good time for like a young public health person to enter the system. [00:16:55] He was like, go away and do something else. He was so funny. He was like, just go and like, get some, get some work [00:17:00] experience. You know? I was like, okay, so I left [00:17:05] Imperial.
Rhona Eskander: What year.
Federica Amati: Was this? 2010. Okay. Yeah. And I just thought, [00:17:10] well, what am I going to do? Because, uh, there’s, you know, I need to get work experience. [00:17:15] But in academia, I’m still very junior and in public health there was like no jobs going. So [00:17:20] I was like, what should I do? And then through my dad, like a friend of my dad’s, was like, well, we need someone who’s quite [00:17:25] good at writing. Like you. I did English Lit and history. I loved writing and reading and [00:17:30] I was so loved. So I was like, oh, I’d love to do it. So it was like a very junior marketing role in hospitality. [00:17:35] What this my mom was like. What? I was like, but, you know, it’s a job. [00:17:40] And actually, let’s just see what happens. So I took that job and it just escalated. It [00:17:45] went from there. I got a job in New York in hospitality and became the director of [00:17:50] comms for a hospitality company there. So it kind of and it was interesting [00:17:55] for me to do that journey because.
Rhona Eskander: So that you kind of left nutrition behind at that [00:18:00] time.
Federica Amati: So I left, yeah, I left I sort of left science behind. I hadn’t even started nutrition yet. Right. [00:18:05] So I kind of left it behind. I, I realised I wanted to do nutrition during [00:18:10] my master’s because of a lecture that I had from Lee, who is the director of the Epic cohort, [00:18:15] which is like the biggest study on cancer in in Europe, basically. And [00:18:20] his lecture, he he showed us the results from a study he’d done that year, which directly [00:18:25] showed that it was actually one of the studies that Made [00:18:30] processed meat a class one carcinogen, so his research showed that consumption of [00:18:35] processed meat was directly linked to colorectal cancer. Interesting. I remember sitting there actually going, [00:18:40] what? And did anyone else hear that? So it was the first time that I’d seen dietary [00:18:45] pattern something we’re eating directly causing a disease. So [00:18:50] the seed was planted, but nutrition science wasn’t available at Imperial College. It wasn’t available [00:18:55] to me in my sphere at that point. So I went off, did it quite funnily. I went and worked in [00:19:00] hospitality. So lots of restaurants, food everywhere anyway. And um, but then after two [00:19:05] years.
Rhona Eskander: And is that where you met your partner?
Federica Amati: No. Not yet. So yeah. Not yet. So [00:19:10] after two years doing that and living that life and it was very fun, like there was events and film [00:19:15] festivals and lots of travel and.
Rhona Eskander: I’m here for it. I’m still living at home. I’m 37 [00:19:20] and.
Payman Langroudi: It’s like, is that why when I Google you, it says socialite comes up first instead [00:19:25] of nutrition.
Federica Amati: That’s a that’s a different story for a different day. Yeah. Yeah. I’ll [00:19:30] tell you that story because it’s a really good one, because at that point I was a PhD, but [00:19:35] this is pre-pandemic being a PhD. It wasn’t cool. So [00:19:40] instead of so when they wrote me, that was the article about our wedding. When we got married, they were like, [00:19:45] what do you do? And I was like, well, I’m a medical scientist. And they were like, no. And just made me a socialite. No way. [00:19:50] So that’s changed since the pandemic. Now, like scientists, especially female scientists are [00:19:55] much more respected. But back then, it’s like it was a whole magazine, to be fair. They were like, no, that’s not going [00:20:00] to resonate with our readers. I was like, what do you mean? Yeah. So the experience of [00:20:05] working in New York, I worked in marketing and PR, and I got, you know, I became very good at [00:20:10] getting whatever we needed into press. It’s like, okay, we need to open this restaurant [00:20:15] in Chelsea in New York, and we’re going to put artists on the wall and and it’s in vogue, done. Like, it was [00:20:20] a very interesting process for me to see how firstly, [00:20:25] how Firstly how quickly compared to academia. It was like bam, bam, bam, bam bam so quick. And also how [00:20:30] like so my dream then was okay, I’ve sort of [00:20:35] created, crafted some sort of communication skills. It wasn’t I wasn’t doing it for that long, but I [00:20:40] picked it up. But what I really wanted was to get to a point in my life where I could [00:20:45] get Vogue to write about things that actually mattered for people’s health.
Federica Amati: So what I [00:20:50] found very hard and a big reason for, like I knew quite early on in my career, in that career, that I wasn’t [00:20:55] going to stay in it. It wasn’t. My thing was there’s all this [00:21:00] time and energy spent on telling people about things that aren’t that important. And there’s [00:21:05] so much coming out of the science and academia academic world that are fundamentally useful [00:21:10] things for people to, like, live a better life. And so that was when [00:21:15] the seed for me wanting to do more science communications, I didn’t know this was what it was called at the time. But I was like, I want to be able [00:21:20] to communicate science, not communicate festival Like media. Yeah, [00:21:25] film or whatever. Yeah. So I, I sort of left New York. I [00:21:30] met my I met Paul, I met my husband at the last event I did in London, [00:21:35] and he was one of the guests. And so we met there. And then actually very [00:21:40] soon after I moved back to London. I was already planning to, but moved to London because [00:21:45] my father was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. So I was like, drop dropped everything, left my flat and [00:21:50] just moved back. And when I came back to London was when I thought, okay, this is the time now to [00:21:55] go back into science. I miss science, I miss research like I miss it so much. So [00:22:00] I called, I basically looked there’s this website called find a PhD literally. Yeah. And I think.
Rhona Eskander: I know it. Yeah. [00:22:05]
Federica Amati: And but universities genuinely post all their PhDs on it. I was like I’m just going to go on there [00:22:10] and I’m just going to look at public health PhDs and I’m going to apply. And [00:22:15] there was this PhD in at Imperial and it [00:22:20] was back in my old apartment. So School of Public Health, a topic that [00:22:25] I’d never done. Um, it was it was a medical science PhD. So they were looking at patient [00:22:30] outcomes was like the, the primary thing, but the data set they wanted to use [00:22:35] was a psychological, uh, like it’s called IAP, increasing access [00:22:40] to psychological therapies. It’s like a psychological outcomes data set. And [00:22:45] I had never done psychology before. But so my brain I was like, this is an opportunity [00:22:50] to learn something new. So I applied to this PhD and I went to the interview and they were like, [00:22:55] you have very little experience of large data sets and you’ve [00:23:00] never done psychology. I was like, yes, but I’m really willing to learn and I’m up for [00:23:05] it. And they took a punt and they were like, okay, let’s do it, let’s go. So I did that PhD and [00:23:10] it was, you know, really hard. Phds are really hard. Yeah, they.
Rhona Eskander: Are really hard. And I [00:23:15] just I just kind of want to interject there because I think one big piece of the puzzle that you’re not giving yourself credit for is [00:23:20] also like you’re a mom of two. Yeah. And, you know, I, as someone that’s been very career [00:23:25] orientated their whole lives, I still get a little bit [00:23:30] of fear about how my life is going to change. You know, once another human being is. And I [00:23:35] think that, you know, it’s incredibly difficult for women, you know, we don’t get enough recognition [00:23:40] and understanding for how much your life does change. Your life doesn’t change that much. And [00:23:45] and yeah.
Payman Langroudi: Are you two the same age? Yeah. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Same. Exactly. Um, so, [00:23:50] you know, how did you I mean, did you get pregnant during your PhD and how did that affect you? How [00:23:55] did that affect your studies?
Federica Amati: Yeah. So so yeah. So I think you’re right. [00:24:00] The first massive change for me was going from my role in New York to [00:24:05] a student, by the way.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah.
Federica Amati: That was a bit of a yeah a readjustment [00:24:10] because I was suddenly like, oh, I have no money. Like I was lucky to be funded, but it’s a stipend, [00:24:15] right? It’s not. I was like, okay, I have no money and I’m at the bottom of bottom of the academic ladder. [00:24:20] This PhD students, you’re like they’re right. Um, so it was a big mindset [00:24:25] switch up. And then of course, that our timelines, [00:24:30] I have to say like were slightly dictated, but we ended up getting married [00:24:35] faster than we would have done because my dad was dying. So we sort of got married quite quickly [00:24:40] after we got engaged. Like poor, poor. Like he got engaged three months later. Yeah. [00:24:45] So we don’t have time to mess around here. And then, um, and then, [00:24:50] you know. Yeah, I was doing my PhD, and I just. There’s no. The thing is, with, I think what I’ve. What I realised [00:24:55] there’s no good time to have a child. There isn’t. There isn’t ever [00:25:00] going to be a gap where you’re like.
Payman Langroudi: Ha, very true.
Federica Amati: This is a good time is there’s no good time. Like [00:25:05] so I just thought like, well, we’ll crack on and then if we get pregnant, great. And let’s [00:25:10] just see what happens. So when eventually we did get pregnant, I just worked right [00:25:15] through my pregnancy. Like, just carried on. And then when [00:25:20] I had Sophia, when Sophia was born, I wanted to take six months [00:25:25] off with her. And there’s no issue interrupting your PhD, [00:25:30] but it’s very hard to get back into it when you’ve when you’ve like, especially [00:25:35] even just writing the code, by the way, for starter, which is what I was using. Like you forget because [00:25:40] it’s not interesting. So unless you like, absolutely love coding. Um, but so it was really it was [00:25:45] really tough. But I just, I did I took the time off. [00:25:50] Not all of it. I started I started to work back on it on the PhD a bit. [00:25:55] Just I kept reading throughout even when like when she was born, I kept reading just to keep myself up [00:26:00] to date. And then when I did go back to it, I just cracked on a bit faster. [00:26:05] I think, you know, having children changes everything, especially the first one. Oh my God, [00:26:10] it’s like the house is on fire, like what’s happened, but it refocuses. [00:26:15]
Rhona Eskander: Everything. Also that 1 to 2 is actually worse.
Federica Amati: No, I love my second second. Do you know what you’re doing a bit [00:26:20] more? You’re a bit less stressed. It’s less. It’s more chaos for sure. Yeah. But in terms of [00:26:25] the your ability to just to just go with the flow, it’s better with the second I think [00:26:30] for most people, not not for everyone, but I what people [00:26:35] I think often don’t realise is that once you have a kid. So if you’re especially if you’re I think [00:26:40] it’s for mothers, especially your drive to succeed to so that you can [00:26:45] look after that kid is huge. Like the the amount, how [00:26:50] hard and how focussed I work now is like 20 times 20 fold. Before [00:26:55] I was a mum because also I don’t have time now. So like every [00:27:00] hour of my day is dedicated to achieve because then [00:27:05] as soon as I finish working I go to my job as a mother. So your mindset [00:27:10] completely transforms when you’re a parent. And for some I think I have friends for sure [00:27:15] who, when they had children, decided that actually their career was not important for them and [00:27:20] their focus was their kids. And for others, it’s like my career is really important [00:27:25] to me and I want I need to nurture it and continue with it.
Federica Amati: And [00:27:30] I’m also a mother. So it’s individual, but honestly, I just cracked on. It did affect my PhD, [00:27:35] so I was six months later. So instead of writing up period starting [00:27:40] at three years, it started at three and a half. So just a bit longer. And but [00:27:45] then I just cracked on and then I and then I was like, well, I’m writing up now. So I got [00:27:50] to my write up period and I was like, I want I wanted to have two second. So I was [00:27:55] like, should we try? I was like, oh my God, come on, are you kidding? And so we got pregnant. [00:28:00] Um, and I just entered writing up period and then realised that [00:28:05] I really wanted to do a masters in nutrition. And this is where this year was probably not [00:28:10] my not not the most thought out. Yeah, but I basically [00:28:15] said, okay, well, in my write up period, I’ve got a year to write this up, but I’ve actually I’ve written most of it, I’ve written [00:28:20] some papers which are going to go into the PhD. So I was like, I don’t need a whole year to write this up just by [00:28:25] itself. So I decided to do my master’s in my write up year. [00:28:30] Pregnant. Pregnant.
Rhona Eskander: That’s so.
Payman Langroudi: Crazy. Well, but you know what?
Federica Amati: The thing [00:28:35] is? I didn’t plan it. I just had I had I had an aim [00:28:40] to finish my PhD and aim to get my master’s in nutrition because I was like, I really, this is what I really want to do. [00:28:45] I want to apply my public health. Like, how am I going to deliver improved public health with [00:28:50] medical science and nutrition as my tool? That was clear to me then. So I kept with that. And then my second [00:28:55] goal was, I want to be a mother. I want to build a family. The two things cannot be mutually exclusive. So I’m just [00:29:00] going to crack on with both. And I did, and it was quite hectic for a while I think.
Rhona Eskander: So there’s a couple [00:29:05] of things that sort of come up for me when you were talking, first of all, did your father’s [00:29:10] diagnosis of colorectal cancer, because you brought up at the beginning of the [00:29:15] conversation that, you know, you were like, you had this light bulb moment when someone said that it was [00:29:20] due to certain foods. Et cetera. So do you think that was also a driver for you [00:29:25] to propel you towards nutrition?
Federica Amati: No. I think in hindsight, it [00:29:30] looks in hindsight, you can join the dots, right? But at the time, [00:29:35] it just at the time, [00:29:40] it made me more interested in understanding disease. I was like, how did we get here? Like what? [00:29:45] How did this happen? And how could it? How could it be prevented actually? [00:29:50] But of course, at that, in that moment, it’s also. How can I help my dad? [00:29:55] Obviously there was I did not have the knowledge or the skill set or whatever. I couldn’t have done much to help him anyway. But it’s [00:30:00] like it’s a different drive when you’re in that in that moment is [00:30:05] very different. In hindsight, it definitely shaped my trajectory for sure. Like, [00:30:10] especially, the more I studied, the more I understood just [00:30:15] how much his lifestyle and his diet increased his risk. Yeah, [00:30:20] but it was after his death that that really, you know, that [00:30:25] that was more of a realisation. So I think it did shape my trajectory, but I wasn’t aware of it at the time. [00:30:30]
Rhona Eskander: Nice. Yeah.
Payman Langroudi: And if you were, if you were the queen of the world and you could push a button and change [00:30:35] nutritional habits for different people. Yeah. What are your top three things [00:30:40] you would change?
Federica Amati: Top three. So the [00:30:45] the three things that are lacking from people’s diets. Right. [00:30:50] And the science on this is really interesting because people always think about I’m having too much [00:30:55] of this, too much of that. But when you look at what are the biggest drivers of disability and disease [00:31:00] caused by diet, and let’s remember, diet related chronic diseases are the number one killers in the world. So it’s [00:31:05] really the things that cause the most death and death and disease. It’s the foods that are lacking from [00:31:10] our plate. That cause way more damage than what we’re eating too much of. And this [00:31:15] is actually. Sometimes a bit confusing because it’s like, what do you mean it’s like so.
Rhona Eskander: Green vegetables.
Federica Amati: A [00:31:20] diet high in trans fats kills a lot of people. A diet high in red meat kills people. [00:31:25] A diet high in processed meat kills people. But they are fractions compared to a [00:31:30] diet low in whole grains, which kills the most people. Of any dietary habit. [00:31:35] A diet low in whole fruits which have been demonised, demonised, left, right and centre [00:31:40] everywhere. And a diet low in. Well, can I have can I have more than three legumes [00:31:45] and the other one is nuts and seeds.
Payman Langroudi: So when you say whole grains. Yeah.
Federica Amati: Wheat, spelt, [00:31:50] barley, steel cut oats, not quick cooked porridge.
Rhona Eskander: Those [00:31:55] were considered like the poor people foods like back in the day. And now they’re superfoods like in in [00:32:00] the Middle East we have something called whole grains. Yeah, exactly. And and [00:32:05] we have something called fool as well, which is like Egyptian fool. Yeah. You know, and it’s my favourite thing. [00:32:10] Yeah. And it’s like it’s an Egyptian meal. But they used to. It was like the poor man’s food, right? Because, like, on the streets, [00:32:15] you’d have the fool with the brown whole bread. And like, the fool comes with lots of, like, veggies. [00:32:20] Like tomatoes. So like. And I mean, I’m lucky because Middle East, Europe. Like a mediterranean diet. [00:32:25] You know, I’m Lebanese.
Payman Langroudi: So when you say pulses. So you mean beans? Right.
Federica Amati: Beans. Lentils. [00:32:30] Edamame beans.
Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So thank God for that whole bean company.
Federica Amati: Bold bean company. [00:32:35] Amelia. She knows I love her. Yeah, yeah. She’s amazing.
Payman Langroudi: It’s good stuff.
Federica Amati: Oh, it’s.
Payman Langroudi: Otherwise [00:32:40] you have to find an Italian deli or something to get, you know.
Federica Amati: But let’s be clear. Like, bold beans are amazing, but you can buy [00:32:45] tinned beans anywhere.
Payman Langroudi: And still get the benefit.
Federica Amati: Yeah, bold beans have done the best job at making them [00:32:50] absolutely delicious. Anyone can get into beans with bold beans. That’s what’s amazing, right?
Rhona Eskander: I want to know, [00:32:55] how did you get into Zoe? Because that was my original question. Wow. Sorry. That was me. Okay. That’s okay. [00:33:00] So so.
Federica Amati: So eventually. So the science comms, passion nutrition is Nutrition is the tool I want to use. So [00:33:05] here I am. I’m like going going down to get my master’s, get registered. Like [00:33:10] I’m taking this very seriously. My Imperial college were like, you don’t need to do a master’s in nutrition. You have a PhD. [00:33:15] Like I was like, no, I’m going to go and I’m going to do it because I don’t want to be another nutritionist [00:33:20] who didn’t get the thing. So he went and did it. And, um, and I was like, right, [00:33:25] I’m going to I started working on nutrition communications. So [00:33:30] I did a lot of press, answering questions about food, using research, referencing [00:33:35] everything. That’s how I started. Then I had a call and this is so the pandemic [00:33:40] happened at this point and I was like, oh God, this is not great. So I had like a newborn and [00:33:45] I was trying to build this new career. I was like, this is going to be interesting. And I had this [00:33:50] call with a woman called Harriet who runs a really successful communications science communications [00:33:55] company here. And she was like, listen, I’ve got this client. He [00:34:00] needs some help with a book. It’s right up your street. He’s a doctor and [00:34:05] he’s writing a nutrition book. And he wants someone who’s got medical science and nutrition. And I don’t know [00:34:10] that many people, because the combination of public health, PhD, medical science and nutrition is quite unusual because it’s kind of [00:34:15] three different, um, disciplines. Yeah. She was I think you’ll [00:34:20] get on I think you’ll he’ll appreciate like your work.
Federica Amati: I was like, great. But he was like she was like, so yeah. [00:34:25] Do you want to meet with him? The only thing is that the pay is not amazing because it’s a book. I was like, shut up. What? Who is it? And she was [00:34:30] like, do you know Professor Tim Spector? And I was like, that’s hilarious. Obviously, this was before he was famous, [00:34:35] right? But for me, he was already famous because I was like, I’d been to see him at the Royal Society of Medicine. I knew exactly [00:34:40] who he was. I was like, are you joking? Yes. So I literally was like, I definitely wanna meet him. So I had [00:34:45] a call with him and he was like, probably pretty annoyed that [00:34:50] he had to work for someone new. Yeah. So he was like, okay. So we did like a [00:34:55] sample chapter, uh, where I basically rewrote it and I was like, disagree, disagree, [00:35:00] wrong, wrong wrong wrong. He was like, okay, let’s go, let’s do this. So I worked with him on food for life, [00:35:05] his like Bible, which is an amazing book I highly recommend. A lot of love went into that. [00:35:10] And then of course he was building Zoe at this time. And so eventually he [00:35:15] was like, I think we could really do with like, you helping us at Zoe. And I was like, sounds [00:35:20] fun. Like, let’s do it. So then I started working with him at [00:35:25] Zoe as well. And yeah. And I’m still there. The rest [00:35:30] is history.
Rhona Eskander: So I want to ask you, obviously, um, I’m a massive advocate of health. [00:35:35] I’ve been in a really privileged position that I can afford to be healthy, because I think one of the big things [00:35:40] about public health is as well, is that we don’t sometimes empathise with people’s [00:35:45] social or socioeconomic factors that make it incredibly difficult. You know, I always say, [00:35:50] if you’ve got a mum of six that comes from an abused home, that’s a single mum living in a council estate, she’s [00:35:55] going to go down and get that McDonald’s. She’s not going to go down to Tesco and get some get some fresh ingredients, you know.
Payman Langroudi: So [00:36:00] not necessarily though, because, you know, you see that it’s a bit patronising.
Rhona Eskander: I know it’s not it’s not patronising. [00:36:05]
Payman Langroudi: I mean, what what Frederica says the education if they [00:36:10] have this. But the thing is tin of tin of tin of beans is actually quite.
Rhona Eskander: Cheap, but totally. But this, this is a larger [00:36:15] problem, right? Because as you know, even in dentistry, are we paid for prevention? The two very [00:36:20] basic things that patients need to improve their oral health in this crisis that we’re going through [00:36:25] is brush your teeth twice a day with fluoride, reduce [00:36:30] the frequency, not necessarily the amount of sugar. That message has not even been spread [00:36:35] in an efficient manner because it’s not prioritised. So the health care system in [00:36:40] the UK, I recognise that as well. So I’m not saying it to be patronising, but what I’m saying is I have, [00:36:45] I have, I have empathy. I have empathy as well to understand that we [00:36:50] can say that because we have had the privilege of education, but a lot of people [00:36:55] haven’t, and we underestimate that because even sometimes when I get asked to go [00:37:00] on TV and talk about how to brush your teeth, you know, people might be like, really? People don’t know how to [00:37:05] brush their teeth. People don’t know how to brush their teeth.
Federica Amati: It’s a skill.
Rhona Eskander: Exactly.
Federica Amati: You’re not born [00:37:10] knowing how to brush your teeth. Yeah, right. So I think the thing is, actually, I think having public [00:37:15] health as my background does help me with this. I think that I [00:37:20] know I’m not speaking. I’m not saying anyone does this, by the way. But generally, nutritionists and dietitians [00:37:25] who don’t have a public health background can sometimes lack that depth of understanding [00:37:30] of the barriers. Because when you just when you learn nutrition or any other [00:37:35] look even talking about like exercise physiology, if you learn the tool that has [00:37:40] the impact, but there isn’t a public health base, then it can sometimes [00:37:45] be like, well, this is how you do it, so just do it. Yeah, exactly. And then it’s like, no, but the context [00:37:50] is exactly right. So to your point, time poverty is [00:37:55] a is a real problem. Yes. And as much as buying cheap beans [00:38:00] is cheap, whole grains are cheap. Lentils are cheap. Right. These are cheap foods. [00:38:05] But time you have to cook them. So like. And people [00:38:10] don’t have time. And the society we live in doesn’t support people making [00:38:15] good decisions. Now this is a problem is that when you work in so so when you work in like public health nutrition, [00:38:20] you have to understand the system is broken and isn’t supporting people to make the thing happen. [00:38:25] But at the same time you have if you say if you just leave it there, that takes away everyone’s agency [00:38:30] to make a difference to to their own lives. If you’re it’s a bit like the the debate with, [00:38:35] um, obesity prevention, right? We know that obesity [00:38:40] is a multifactorial, complex condition that is heavily influenced by the environment. [00:38:45] But if you tell everyone it’s not your fault, it’s the environment that completely [00:38:50] removes agency for people making difference to their own autonomy.
Rhona Eskander: Exactly 100%.
Federica Amati: So with [00:38:55] nutrition, it’s like there’s a fine balance of let’s acknowledge the system is broken, that, [00:39:00] you know, more than 65% of our calories come from ultra processed foods. [00:39:05] That it’s much easier to buy fast foods and foods that lack any [00:39:10] sort of benefit than it is to buy fresh foods, or at least foods that are processed that [00:39:15] are good for you. So we live in a food environment that doesn’t support our health, [00:39:20] and it’s not. And when I say that often people think it can’t just be that. [00:39:25] But actually when you look at other countries in Europe that don’t that do it better, Romania, [00:39:30] Italy, they just have way less of this food available. Correct. So by simply [00:39:35] changing the environment and changing what’s available, you automatically change what people are eating [00:39:40] because they can’t access it.
Payman Langroudi: I mean, it’s a bit unfair to ask an Italian this year because I [00:39:45] know which way you’re going to fall. But I might imagine when I went to Italy, I had bread, pasta, pizza [00:39:50] and didn’t feel as heavy and and bloated as when I have bread, pasta, [00:39:55] pizza right here. Is that just to do with, like, better ingredients?
Federica Amati: I mean, probably because you’re on a holiday, but it’s [00:40:00] like.
Payman Langroudi: No, I was eating things that.
Rhona Eskander: I knew generally aren’t seen as like an obese nation, [00:40:05] but they’re very cool. Yeah, yeah, but it’s a very carb heavy diet. Yeah.
Federica Amati: Yeah it is. But you [00:40:10] know what’s interesting? So like when we think about healthy diets, the healthiest diets in the world are carbohydrate [00:40:15] rich diets, high carb diets like the Mediterranean diet, the blue zones, diets, [00:40:20] they’re all high carbohydrate diets. The problem is what you’re touching on the quality of the carbohydrate. [00:40:25] So when we talk about high carbohydrate diets, let’s take like the Okinawan [00:40:30] diet, 80% of their calories come from purple sweet potatoes 80%. [00:40:35] That’s huge right. And then with that, they’re having vegetables. Pulses like what [00:40:40] they’re eating is all high quality carbohydrates. What you get [00:40:45] in Italy is we certainly the culture there means that pasta and bread are made with [00:40:50] durum wheat flours. They tend to be less processed and they’re made from scratch. So [00:40:55] even if the shop bought pasta in Italy. Italian shop pasta is higher quality. [00:41:00] It’s like when you look at the composition. Nutritional composition in it. It’s a better pasta, [00:41:05] higher in protein, higher in fibre, lower glycemic load compared to, say, like a quick cooked [00:41:10] pasta made for the UK market, which is a shame, but it does make a difference. [00:41:15] So like the quality of the carbohydrate is the key. It’s not actually, [00:41:20] carbs are not the the devil fibre is a carbohydrate, [00:41:25] and fibre is a single ingredient that we’re lacking. 95% of adults are lacking [00:41:30] fibre, don’t reach the recommended 30g a day, let alone exceeding it. The [00:41:35] average UK adult eats 18g of fibre a day. That’s what we recommend for a four year old, [00:41:40] right? So demonising carbohydrates doesn’t actually serve [00:41:45] us in trying to improve health. You ask me, what are the three things you could wish everyone would do would do more of. And I said, I basically [00:41:50] said, eat more carbohydrate rich foods whole grains, pulses, nuts and seeds, right? They’re all [00:41:55] carbohydrate rich foods. So we have to sort of think [00:42:00] more about quantity of food and be mindful that quality doesn’t mean price. It [00:42:05] doesn’t have to be expensive. A high quality carbohydrate is a lentil. [00:42:10]
Rhona Eskander: Sweet potato is a sweet potato.
Federica Amati: A low quality carbohydrate is an iced [00:42:15] bun. No one will argue with that. Yeah, right. A low quality carbohydrate is buying. [00:42:20] I mean, some of the breads you see in supermarkets here are quite amazing. They’re just [00:42:25] the lack of anything in them. That’s food. Yeah. It’s like how can we call this bread actually. [00:42:30] Yeah.
Payman Langroudi: Like bread has to go off doesn’t it. It shouldn’t last three weeks.
Federica Amati: Last three weeks. And you know, there’s [00:42:35] this idea that if you get a loaf of bread and you can roll it into a tiny bowl and it stays [00:42:40] in a bowl like dough, like play dough, don’t. Not a good idea. Like, where’s the food matrix? What happened? [00:42:45]
Rhona Eskander: So, so one thing that I want to ask you as well is obviously like, Zoe [00:42:50] has been under fire, um, by the media for several reasons. And I just want [00:42:55] to address that with you, because obviously, I don’t really know. You’re somebody that I trust and respect and have known [00:43:00] for many years. Um, I even saw on your stories a few weeks ago, there was a nutritionist [00:43:05] that was trying to put Zoe under fire. You you handled it very eloquently.
Federica Amati: I got quite annoyed [00:43:10] there.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No, no, you didn’t get annoyed, you know. And then the person instead, um, typical [00:43:15] on social media hid your comment instead of having a nuanced discussion about [00:43:20] what was going on. So explain to us a little bit why it has been under fire and what’s been going on. [00:43:25]
Federica Amati: Yeah. So I think the first thing to say is we’re privileged that Zoe [00:43:30] has resonated so well. So we’ve, you know, people really [00:43:35] know us. We’ve got very good brand awareness and with [00:43:40] success come detractors. And that’s like across anything. You’ll know this. S, [00:43:45] so unfortunately some of the attention is just [00:43:50] a side effect of the fact that we’re well known, which is fine.
Rhona Eskander: What was the attention? What was happening? [00:43:55]
Federica Amati: So so there’s several if I had to pick like the main strands of what we’re [00:44:00] targeted is the wrong word. But what we’re sort of confronted by is. [00:44:05] So the first one is the use of continuous glucose monitors for [00:44:10] people who don’t have diabetes. Now, of course, we’re not the only company to do this. And [00:44:15] if you look to other countries like the US or like even the Netherlands, [00:44:20] it’s not going anywhere. Like continuous glucose monitoring as a way to measure metabolic fitness [00:44:25] is quite early on in its journey, but it’s not going anywhere. It’s a good idea. It kind of works. [00:44:30] So the way I think about this is blood pressure, right? We [00:44:35] know that hypertension is like the leading risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Cardiovascular disease [00:44:40] is number one killer. So like it’s a really good idea to understand hypertension. And we’ve [00:44:45] gone from a model of measuring your blood pressure. When you go to the doctor and you get white lab [00:44:50] coat syndrome and your blood pressure is really high and everyone freaks out. To actually empowering patients with at [00:44:55] home tracking and they take their own blood pressure. And there’s now even the bracelets that do 24 [00:45:00] hour blood pressure monitoring. I think it’s a very similar trajectory. So we also know that having [00:45:05] very high blood glucose, like elevated blood glucose over time is not good for [00:45:10] you. It increases your chances or your risk of metabolic disease.
Federica Amati: We don’t want that. So [00:45:15] you have HBA one C, which is like a static measure of your blood glucose. And it works really well [00:45:20] for identifying people who are creeping up into pre-diabetes or diabetes. And cgms [00:45:25] offer a dynamic way of testing what your blood glucose levels are doing over the day, or in our case. [00:45:30] So how Zoe does this differently is we use continuous glucose monitoring [00:45:35] to dynamically test how you respond to a specific metabolic insult. [00:45:40] The cookies that you that you get in the Zoe kit are high sugar, high fat. So [00:45:45] we’re not just tracking your CGM curve over over the day doing whatever. [00:45:50] We’re actually saying everybody that does Zoe eats these cookies at the same time [00:45:55] with the same space gap. So it’s like when you’re doing the testing phase, [00:46:00] you’re following the same protocol that we use in our clinical trials. We’re saying, [00:46:05] you eat this and we see exactly how your body responds. How does it deal with that high sugar challenge. So [00:46:10] it’s more of a dynamic way to measure. So we get a lot of sort of comments on it shouldn’t be [00:46:15] the one thing that’s not true. So we have to remember that NHS provides continuous [00:46:20] glucose monitors for some patients. That pool of continuous glucose monitors is [00:46:25] not the same pool that gets used for commercial products. So this doesn’t happen [00:46:30] so much anymore. But a couple of years ago it was like, oh, you know, the CGM should that [00:46:35] they’re using are being taken away from the NHS.
Federica Amati: No. Like the NHS doesn’t do that. I [00:46:40] didn’t do it with any medicines, right? Or any medical device. The second thing [00:46:45] is, well, how useful actually is it, you know. And that’s where the scientific debate is. There isn’t enough [00:46:50] research to prove that understanding your continuous glucose [00:46:55] monitoring over time actually helps you to know how high your risk is. [00:47:00] Or so there’s a lot of scientific debate about this. Now. The science around it is [00:47:05] is emerging, but it is all pointing towards the fact that it is actually quite helpful. And it does help us to see those [00:47:10] people who are more at risk of developing, like having [00:47:15] a less favourable metabolic profile. We’re talking about prevention here though. So this is where the [00:47:20] most the loudest voices who are most reactive to using this technology are [00:47:25] the ones who are staunch believers in cut offs. And they’re sort of they’re [00:47:30] not in prevention. They’re like, unless you’re above the pre-diabetic range, you don’t need to worry about it. [00:47:35] So I think some of the conflict really comes from this difference in people who want to be [00:47:40] working in preventative, like preventative medicine, and actually helping people to work [00:47:45] really upstream before it’s a problem. And then the people who are like, no, you should [00:47:50] only address this when it’s a problem.
Rhona Eskander: So I’m going to say as well, um, recently the [00:47:55] dental community has also been up in arms for the same reason. We know that the science [00:48:00] has been there with regards to bacteria, the oral microbiome, your [00:48:05] saliva, the relation to different diseases. But a lot of dentists have not necessarily [00:48:10] been making a big deal of it because they’re like, yeah, but it doesn’t change our protocol. And Payman [00:48:15] and I had a discussion and said, yes, but if patients are more aware and they have devices, [00:48:20] for example, to test their saliva, to see that they’ve got elevated levels in X, Y, and Z, [00:48:25] you can’t be angry that now dentists are like, actually, it’s a good thing to be aware [00:48:30] of this, even if your protocol doesn’t change. Because if it motivates the patient [00:48:35] to brush their teeth twice a day, to eat less sugar than [00:48:40] you have achieved a great deal. You’ve achieved prevention. Listen, we shouldn’t be glucose [00:48:45] like mongering. Let’s call it glucose mongering. Listen, I.
Payman Langroudi: Used to.
Rhona Eskander: Have, I used to. I [00:48:50] used to have an eating disorder when I was in my 20s. At the time when I used to go visit you in Edinburgh, [00:48:55] I was, like, severely underweight. So I was a restricted eater. Okay. And [00:49:00] certainly if I was given access to something like this, it would have made my obsessive [00:49:05] eating much worse. So for someone like that. Sure. However, if [00:49:10] you’re trying to motivate some of the general public that are may find it difficult to make decisions, [00:49:15] then it can’t be a bad thing if it motivates them to eat less sugar. And [00:49:20] the problem is, is that when you have something that’s so accessible, you can’t control every single person that buys [00:49:25] it. And I think that’s where the difficulty is.
Federica Amati: You say that though, because so active eating disorder is [00:49:30] an exclusion criteria you cannot buy. Zoe, how do.
Rhona Eskander: You know if people are going to be honest?
Federica Amati: Well they’re not [00:49:35] so. And that’s something we can’t control. You’re completely right. So we but we actively say no, [00:49:40] not for you. Because it’s not going to help. Because you’re tracking.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And so that’s.
Federica Amati: Not going to help. But the [00:49:45] thing that you just touched on, which is really important, there’s a couple of things. Glucose and glucose centricity [00:49:50] or glucose monitoring as you say. We agree. Like Zoe [00:49:55] looks at your blood glucose, blood fat, gut microbiome quality and history. It’s a [00:50:00] multi-dimensional approach that then gives you advice on your diet. You wear a [00:50:05] CGM for two weeks and then you don’t wear one again like we do the testing. And then you’re done. And then we take into account [00:50:10] all of the other factors to give you advice, because if it was just glucose and some companies do do this, [00:50:15] they just use CGM. If you’re just looking at glucose, you’re not taking into account [00:50:20] everything else that’s important for metabolic health. You’d be recommending lard, right? It doesn’t spike your glucose. [00:50:25] Yeah, but that’s not very helpful. So there’s that thing. And also the other point [00:50:30] that you just said about motivation, the amount of members who say to us, the most useful thing [00:50:35] for me to motivate change was seeing how certain foods directly [00:50:40] impacted my blood glucose levels, because you can conceptually understand it, [00:50:45] but when you actually see it and you’re like, oh wow, that is.
Payman Langroudi: How big is [00:50:50] the variability between different people on the same food? Is it huge?
Federica Amati: It’s big. Yeah. So we so we [00:50:55] we published this. So it’s called the Predict one study and we published it in nature. And [00:51:00] it’s you can see the the inter interindividual variability I can’t remember I think [00:51:05] it’s 60%. It’s big. It’s like it really changes for both blood glucose and blood fat [00:51:10] let alone gut microbiome. Gut microbiome. We all have. It’s like a fingerprint. It’s completely different. So it’s [00:51:15] really it’s really worth knowing. And these are all people without diabetes. [00:51:20] They don’t have a metabolic condition. So the interindividual variability is within healthy people.
Payman Langroudi: And [00:51:25] how many people have you diagnosed with diabetes that didn’t know they had it? Not a.
Federica Amati: Diagnostic tool. Because we’re not [00:51:30] a medical device. We’re again, we’re trying to work really upstream to help people understand how [00:51:35] food can help them improve their health. Right. Plenty of other people trying to deal with further downstream. [00:51:40] So we don’t we don’t. But there are people who have come to Zoe purchased the product, [00:51:45] um, done the continuous glucose monitoring and actually noticed that their after the two weeks [00:51:50] like it gives you your predicted a onesie and they were like oh. And then [00:51:55] they would take that to the doctor. So a few people did then go on to seek medical [00:52:00] seek medical advice because they realised that they were off of the scales. So and that’s not what [00:52:05] we’re there for. That’s not our role. But that shows you again, giving people [00:52:10] more awareness of their biology is actually very helpful because it gives them the agency [00:52:15] to be like, right, oh, this is interesting. Let me go to my doctor with this and, and actually have it investigated [00:52:20] and see if it’s a thing like you can look up ideal onesie [00:52:25] ranges on the Google Doc to Google and it will tell you. And then you can go and see your doctor. So that’s not what [00:52:30] we do. But we have had lovely emails from members being like, not [00:52:35] what? Not what I bought you for. But thank you so much because I had no idea. Asymptomatic. [00:52:40]
Payman Langroudi: What foods did you once think were safe and great and now don’t like? [00:52:45] What I’m thinking of is like a margarine? Do you mean margarine?
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Listen, I lived [00:52:50] with my mother. She was. She was a dietitian. But it was.
Payman Langroudi: It was supposed to be, like, the best thing for your heart.
Rhona Eskander: My mom always [00:52:55] said it was the worst thing ever since I was, like, three. Really?
Payman Langroudi: Like my my mum London marathon. [00:53:00]
Rhona Eskander: My my mum always knew. I mean, my mum is still in the camp as well of like coconut [00:53:05] oil is not that great for you. And like, you know, people are like, oh like all the vegans and everything [00:53:10] like that, like coconut oil, coconut. Yeah. And my mum is like not great. And I think [00:53:15] that, um, I think that yeah, I think there’s loads of foods that people assume [00:53:20] I even have some of my friends like bingeing on something they think is healthy. And I’m [00:53:25] like, I mean, look, I’m a real moderation person since I got much healthier. My relationship with food like [00:53:30] I have chocolate every day. I’ll have a little bit of junk, but I now me having a little bit of everything [00:53:35] when I want. It has curbed my binging, so I’m totally [00:53:40] fine with it. If I want pop chips, I’m going to have pop chips. You know what I mean? Like, that’s the thing.
Federica Amati: That’s exactly [00:53:45] it. There’s no there’s no food that I’ve done like a full 180 on where I’m like, oh my god, shock. But [00:53:50] it’s more I think actually people often say to me, oh my God, your children must be the healthiest children in the world. [00:53:55] It’s like, no, because when you get obsessive about yes, like the best [00:54:00] diet to have is a consistent diet. Consistency is key. [00:54:05] So if you can build very healthy habits that form the foundation, [00:54:10] then what happens at the top? Like 10% of times [00:54:15] it’s not going to impact what the consistency is. So as long as you’re [00:54:20] having like a varied diet listen, there’s there’s it’s not it’s not even a mystery. We know what the [00:54:25] healthiest dietary patterns in the world are. So the majority of everyone in the world is [00:54:30] going to benefit from a plant forward, fibre rich, diverse diet where [00:54:35] the majority of animal protein is from fatty fish. So omega three rich. [00:54:40] That can be muscles, it can be clams. I don’t really care. It can be sardines with [00:54:45] a little some eggs. And then if you want to, but really not necessary [00:54:50] meat and red meat, occasional processed meat literally [00:54:55] very occasional. That is Mediterranean dietary pyramid like. It’s not a mystery. It’s there. [00:55:00] It’s been shown to improve everything from mental health to heart disease to cancer. Like it’s not [00:55:05] a mystery. Right. And then so once we if you have that foundation where that that’s [00:55:10] actually like, yeah, that’s kind of like what my diet does consist of. Then if [00:55:15] every now and then you’re like, go out and you’re like, actually I really fancy, I don’t know, I really want a [00:55:20] sticky toffee pudding today. You have it. But it’s not the majority of your diet. It’s not a consistent part of your of your [00:55:25] plate. And that’s the key.
Rhona Eskander: But so interesting. I’m not going to name names [00:55:30] because I don’t want to. But there is also a very famous psychotherapist who advocated [00:55:35] for a red meat diet only. I don’t know if you know who I’m talking about. I do. But he [00:55:40] basically went on to say that when his daughter was diagnosed with, I think it was arthritis [00:55:45] from the age of like 11, he put her on a red meat only diet. They call it the lion diet, [00:55:50] particularly Jordan. Yeah, exactly.
Payman Langroudi: Do you want him to say his name?
Rhona Eskander: Oh, I don’t know.
Federica Amati: I don’t [00:55:55] see the name.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, so? So fine. Payman you say the name Jordan Peterson.
Federica Amati: We don’t [00:56:00] want to bring more attention to him. That’s why you don’t say his name.
Rhona Eskander: Oh, I see. And it’s fine. So? So anyways. And [00:56:05] when his daughter, then his daughter went on to have, I think, 1 or 2 children, and she claims that [00:56:10] even during her pregnancy, she literally was just on red meat. And then they kind of had [00:56:15] this small disclaimer being like, oh, I’m not saying everyone should be on it, but it worked for me [00:56:20] and I cured my arthritis and any like autoimmune. And that claiming just eat [00:56:25] red meat three times a day. That’s it. Every single day for the last ten years.
Payman Langroudi: Autoimmune disease or something. Right? [00:56:30]
Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But I just said yeah, yeah.
Payman Langroudi: Let’s see what.
Rhona Eskander: Go, go.
Federica Amati: So this is a okay. [00:56:35] The first clue to your story is there’s this psychotherapist who’s telling people what to eat. Yeah. [00:56:40] Stick to your lane, mate.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.
Federica Amati: Why do you don’t see me? What? Walking around [00:56:45] telling people like what the best form of psychotherapy is. Okay. Not my.
Payman Langroudi: Lane. Do [00:56:50] we do? But. Yeah, but.
Federica Amati: Seriously. But I’m being so serious. And so that is a huge problem. [00:56:55] That is a wealth. There is too many people who [00:57:00] are out there telling people what to eat with no qualifications at all accreditations [00:57:05] to do so, or not even any education. Like okay. Anyway, so that’s the problem. [00:57:10] Then this n of one thing like this whole it worked for me, it might work for you is one of the [00:57:15] most dangerous ways of disseminating misinformation. So [00:57:20] it’s very popular. It’s how a lot of influencers have become absolutely huge. [00:57:25] Like, look at me. You can be like me if you eat what I tell you to eat. There’s a problem. [00:57:30] The other issue is that often, like, is that actually what they’re eating? We [00:57:35] have no proof. They’re telling you that. But is that actually what’s happening [00:57:40] behind closed doors? If you actually went to. So there’s also like all you’re seeing [00:57:45] is what they’ve curated for you to see online. There are so many layers of [00:57:50] problems with it. There is no evidence to support the carnivore diet [00:57:55] or any for any lion diet, all these offshoots of it as [00:58:00] a dietary pattern to support health, let alone longevity, by the way. So all the long [00:58:05] term epidemiological studies we have show that a diet high in meat [00:58:10] leads to earlier death. As simple as that. So these this is a big [00:58:15] thing right now. Every time I talk about this I get attacked on social media. Fake [00:58:20] doctor. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. Like she’d even get a PhD. Like [00:58:25] or like, go straight for the jugular. Straight for the personal attack. I’m like, listen, babe, I’m not. I’m not [00:58:30] here to upset people’s feelings. I’m not anti-meat. I’m not a vegan. I’m not trying to like, [00:58:35] you know. And by the way, most vegans are very lovely people. I’m not [00:58:40] trying to give. It’s not an ideology for me. This is not something I live. For me.
Payman Langroudi: Scientists.
Federica Amati: There’s [00:58:45] science, there’s evidence, and there’s also an understanding of physiology. If you understand [00:58:50] the basic physiology of humans, you understand that there’s a reason we evolved to have such a [00:58:55] long colon with so much surface area to house these trillions of microbes that break [00:59:00] down fibre for us. Like there’s a reason for that. And so people [00:59:05] like him and people who propagate a very [00:59:10] exclusion like exclusion based diet where you eat one one food group [00:59:15] makes no sense when. So back to public health. When you look at public [00:59:20] health for countries, low income countries, right. One of the main things you [00:59:25] try to do with any public health intervention in children is make sure they’re hitting minimum dietary [00:59:30] diversity. It’s like a principle where you’re literally trying to make sure you’re getting [00:59:35] foods from these five groups to get the nutrients required for human health. [00:59:40] Mhm. So we’re out there with the W.H.O. and the Bill Gates Foundation trying to like [00:59:45] make sure children hit these MDS. And then over here in the West right. We’re basically [00:59:50] saying I know let’s only eat red meat. Like we’re going. It’s it’s [00:59:55] backwards. It’s like what are we doing. And then worse is when they talk about it for children. So [01:00:00] there’s a wave of influencers who are carnivore weaning their kids. [01:00:05]
Rhona Eskander: That’s super dangerous. I think also the other thing is like I want to mention [01:00:10] something about social media and influencers. Do you think that, you [01:00:15] know, we’ve You’ve established that it is an extremely ambiguous title, [01:00:20] because somebody can do a one week nutrition course and claim to be a nutritionist. And [01:00:25] do you think, though, that the nutrition community as a whole has [01:00:30] a responsibility to ensure that the information that they’re giving online [01:00:35] is truthful? Because, as I said, we have a Hippocratic oath. We have a [01:00:40] governing body. You guys don’t. But in some ways, you can be incredibly dangerous [01:00:45] to the general public. And one reason that certain, [01:00:50] um, podcasters or influencers have been scrutinised is because [01:00:55] people have stopped cancer treatments in the hopes that a certain diet will cure them of cancer. [01:01:00] And I think that’s hugely irresponsible. What bothers me as well is that sometimes I see influencers. [01:01:05] I said to you who are 23 years old, hey guys, come with me and you know, follow [01:01:10] me or follow this recipe to get glowy skin. You’re 23. I hope you will have will have [01:01:15] glowy skin, because guess what? You’ve got enough collagen in you to have glowy skin. So [01:01:20] I find it incredibly irresponsible. What do you think? Do you think that they have a professional [01:01:25] responsibility to disseminate information correctly? And if they have only [01:01:30] done a one week course, what can be done about it? Yeah.
Federica Amati: So there is a there is a voluntary registration [01:01:35] with the Association for nutrition. And there’s a code like you have to adhere to their [01:01:40] code of practice. And up year up update your [01:01:45] status every year. Report on everything you do. So that’s I’m registered with them but it’s voluntary. [01:01:50] So one thing you can do is look out for nutritionists who have this accreditation. [01:01:55] You can go on the AFN website and find search a name and it will tell you if they’re accredited. But that’s [01:02:00] a lot of work. So what I always say to people is like when if someone calls themselves a nutritionist, [01:02:05] ask questions, anyone who’s. So really, the vast majority of people [01:02:10] I’ve met who do nutrition, right, they’re doing it for it for good. They want to help. They’re not here [01:02:15] to take, you know, take people for a ride. So if you ask someone who calls themselves a nutritionist, [01:02:20] usually you can quite easily find out. Find out if they actually went to the institution [01:02:25] they say they went to. It’s not hard to do that. And they’ll answer your question [01:02:30] with like with kindness. They’ll be like, of course, feel free to ask. [01:02:35] Like, this is where I studied. This is my thing. If people say, how dare you? Why did [01:02:40] you ask me that? It’s a red flag. Because anyone who’s like, shielding or protecting [01:02:45] because they feel attacked, if you ask their credentials for me, is a red flag. If anyone’s [01:02:50] selling you a miracle cure or a super restrictive diet, it’s already [01:02:55] a red flag. Yeah, but also just beyond that, the amount of people who don’t even call themselves nutritionists.
Federica Amati: I [01:03:00] think I hate to say it, but the group who are most guilty of this are chiropractors, doctors, [01:03:05] by the way, illegal for them to call themselves doctors. But that’s a side note. Chiropractors [01:03:10] who almost exclusively work in nutrition [01:03:15] and give advice. It’s a huge problem. It’s one of the biggest [01:03:20] trends. So if someone if someone isn’t calling themselves, if they’re not a nutritionist [01:03:25] or a dietitian and as I said, dietitians protected then and they’re talking about nutrition. [01:03:30] Ask yourself why. Like we all eat. So the problem is because we all eat. We [01:03:35] could all be special. We could all be experts because we do it every day. It doesn’t work like that. [01:03:40] Okay, so if they’re not calling themselves a nutritionist, then you can kind of say, okay, that’s not their speciality. It’s an opinion. [01:03:45] What they’re expressing is an opinion. But I shouldn’t change my life because of it. If they call themselves nutritionists [01:03:50] and you can ask questions about it, find out a bit more. And the easiest thing is just [01:03:55] to find people who have the accreditation and actually spell out their credentials. [01:04:00] And if they’re then if their page is giving out evidence based advice, which [01:04:05] isn’t a one size fits all magic bullet, which isn’t their own product if they’re not, if [01:04:10] they’re like, I hate to say it, but like, you know, glucose is going to kill you. And here’s my [01:04:15] anti glucose supplement. Yeah red flag. It’s like okay so we have [01:04:20] to just be and to your point like it’s social media. Social media is not [01:04:25] on the evidence pyramid. So when you’re if you’re going to.
Payman Langroudi: Accuse you of that with um Zoe. [01:04:30] Right.
Federica Amati: Yeah so do I. Well so I guess what’s interesting.
Payman Langroudi: Is what [01:04:35] I’m saying is if these people often they believe what they’re saying and [01:04:40] hence they go after. Yeah. You think? Yeah. The. They do.
Rhona Eskander: It’s cognitive dissonance.
Payman Langroudi: I mean, call it the [01:04:45] cure. They go after the cure for whatever their, their thing is. Yeah. And [01:04:50] so I don’t know. It’s a funny situation. What you’re the question you’re asking here is about basically [01:04:55] about influencers. Yeah. Not only in nutrition but in every area.
Rhona Eskander: No, totally. I mean, look, [01:05:00] look.
Federica Amati: This I think I think the point being unfortunately, like a huge proportion of people go to social [01:05:05] media for health. Like they that’s where they.
Rhona Eskander: Totally, totally. But also they look at people [01:05:10] that on the surface look like they have their shit together. Yeah. You know, when I was embarking [01:05:15] on the fitness influencer world and seeking out influencers to then find out they had a [01:05:20] raging eating disorder but were giving their fitness plans, but they were starving themselves and they talk about it now, [01:05:25] ten years later. And I was like, I looked up to your plans. I looked up to your nutrition advice because [01:05:30] I know what it is because people looked at them and go, they’re skinny. They have the answer.
Federica Amati: Yeah, I agree. And that’s [01:05:35] also because we have a culture that’s so hyper focussed on how you look like. How you look does not actually necessarily [01:05:40] affect how healthy you are. Let’s be really clear. You feel. Oh yeah. Definitely. So what I would say is, if you have a health [01:05:45] question and you want to ask it, there’s actually a platform. I’m not affiliated with them in any [01:05:50] way, but it’s called consensus. Nice. And it’s essentially ChatGPT but only uses published [01:05:55] evidence. Nice. So if you have a question about health and you want to go somewhere that is [01:06:00] actually going to give you an answer, that’s not google.com opinion, right? Go to that. [01:06:05] It’s going to be a bit safer. We have to treat social media like it is social [01:06:10] media. Social like. And stop looking to influencers for ways [01:06:15] to change your actual life. And if you get inspired, if you see someone [01:06:20] and you’re like, oh, that looks like a good idea, I might try it. Speak [01:06:25] to someone else. Speak even if it’s your partner or your mum or your sister. Like whatever [01:06:30] it is, speak to someone else and be like, I saw this and it feels like quite a nice idea. What do you think? [01:06:35] And even just speaking to another person who loves you might give you an indication of like, hmm, sounds sensible, [01:06:40] it doesn’t sound sensible. Or have you thought about asking someone who’s qualified about [01:06:45] this? Because actually, that’s quite a good idea. So I think we need to just take a step back from social media as the [01:06:50] provider of answers for you as an individual, because also [01:06:55] people, especially people with like 4 million followers, right? They’re sending the same message out to 4 million [01:07:00] people. It is not a personalised message, obviously, but sometimes it can feel like [01:07:05] this is my solution for me. I’m going to do that and it’s going to work for me. We [01:07:10] need to take things back into like much closer circles because.
Payman Langroudi: Media has always been [01:07:15] that. I mean, people used to sell, I don’t know, some cigarettes, the [01:07:20] cigarettes, but also like lose weight sort of miracles. Yeah. On media. Yeah. And again, [01:07:25] I don’t want to sound like I’m being an idiot, but but once again, the [01:07:30] audience is onto that more than you’re saying. Yeah. The audience, [01:07:35] it’s like. It’s like if you tell my kids, hey, if someone contacts you online [01:07:40] and says, give me your phone number, don’t. Well, they’re like, they’re so on to that. Some of them.
Federica Amati: People are [01:07:45] really influenced, I think. I think there is a spectrum. Yeah. Of some people are like totally switched [01:07:50] on. They’re like, oh my God.
Payman Langroudi: There’s going to be some casualties, right? But that’s not.
Rhona Eskander: Some. Most people are the casualties. [01:07:55]
Federica Amati: Because you have to remember it’s constant. So it’s not like it’s [01:08:00] not just you see it once. It’s like constant repetition algorithm.
Rhona Eskander: They see that. You see. Exactly. [01:08:05] I mean, I did a a video about Lindsay Lohan, and my entire feed on search [01:08:10] is now about Lindsay Lohan. I don’t care that much, but just because I did a video, I mean, the algorithm.
Federica Amati: Great work done.
Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [01:08:15] but because the algorithm thinks I’m interested in that, it’s now like so it knows how [01:08:20] to do that. And I think that’s a wider problem. I could literally like talk to Federica for like hours and hours [01:08:25] and hours because I’ve got so many more questions and we don’t have much time. My. Yeah. So [01:08:30] I want two last questions for you. First of all, thoughts on in a sentence. [01:08:35]
Federica Amati: It’s, you know, we’re moving into a place where it’s not if you take it, but when [01:08:40] it’s going to be everywhere, it’s not going anywhere. My biggest wish [01:08:45] is that people and prescribers, so patients who take it and prescribers [01:08:50] understand the importance of dietary quality when you’re only having one meal a day [01:08:55] because we’re staring, we’re moving. So we’re kind of staring down the barrel of metabolic disease. [01:09:00] And now we’re moving to another different type of metabolic disease where you get people who lose all this weight, but [01:09:05] they’re more sarcopenic and they have micronutrient deficiency. So it’s like a different problem. [01:09:10] It’s classic isn’t it? So yeah, that’s I think that’s.
Rhona Eskander: Why it’s heading. Yeah [01:09:15] okay. And then lastly what would you like to see. What’s your vision for the future when it comes to [01:09:20] nutrition health public health whichever way you want to do it in the next ten years, where would you like? What would be [01:09:25] blue sky thinking? What would you like thinking.
Federica Amati: So much more funding in prevention, much [01:09:30] more attention paid to life’s course interventions. [01:09:35] So really focusing on early years and then different windows of opportunity where you can make a difference. [01:09:40] Much more focussed on later life because most of us in [01:09:45] the world are going to be over 65 quite soon. Like the demographics are really changing. [01:09:50] And then in terms of where we get information from, I think really [01:09:55] making it very clear and regulating some of these channels. So Asking [01:10:00] social media channels to remove misinformation, and only allow accredited [01:10:05] and responsible communicators to put out information about things like health, so that [01:10:10] we basically have a much more, more regulated, to be honest, [01:10:15] like a more regulated system where people can do less harm.
Rhona Eskander: I think also podcasts should be regulated. [01:10:20] Now, I’m just saying it’s becoming a huge problem with misinformation.
Payman Langroudi: Absolutely not. How dare you? [01:10:25]
Rhona Eskander: So there we go. Right. Thank you so much, everyone. I know we are going to [01:10:30] need to have Frederico back on, and to have her today was such an honour. Thank you so much. It’s been.
Federica Amati: Incredible. [01:10:35]
Rhona Eskander: Fun. Really, really incredible. You can find her on Instagram. It’s doctor. [01:10:40] Is it doctor dot.
Federica Amati: Yeah. Dot dot dot dot. No no dot. Dot to dot. Dot [01:10:45] t. Yeah.
Rhona Eskander: Perfect. And obviously as you know she is also part of Zoe. So yeah. [01:10:50] Please look her up. Um, write down all of those tips and tricks and we’ll see you next time. Thank [01:10:55] you so much. Thank you.