[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Today [00:00:25] we have a guest whose story is the definition of transformation. Jacqueline Hurst is one of the UK’s [00:00:30] leading life coaches, a mindset expert and the author of the powerful [00:00:35] book How to Do You. But before she became the woman inspiring [00:00:40] thousands, she was fighting some of the darkest battles addiction, anorexia and self-destruction. [00:00:45] Her journey took her from rock bottom to becoming a force of change, helping people break [00:00:50] free from limiting beliefs and taking control of their minds. Jacqueline’s no [00:00:55] nonsense, straight talking approach to mindset works, cuts through the fluff and gets to [00:01:00] the real stuff the way that we think. The way that we feel and how we can shift both to live [00:01:05] the lives that we actually want. Today we are diving into it. All the struggles, [00:01:10] the turning points, and the tools that can help you take back control of your own mind. So, Jacqueline, welcome to [00:01:15] Mind Movies. As I was just describing, the reason why I came across this incredible guest is because [00:01:20] I was sent her book and I found it so empowering [00:01:25] and actually challenging at times as well, because it allowed me to challenge my own thought processes. [00:01:30] I’m a massive self-development junkie, so it was right up my alley. But [00:01:35] I’m so excited to have you. Thank you for being here.

Jaqueline Hurst: Thank you for having me.

Rhona Eskander: So I [00:01:40] always like to start from the beginning, and we know that your journey has been incredibly raw [00:01:45] and real. And before we get into the mindset work, can you take us back to the beginning? What was life [00:01:50] like before you changed everything?

Jaqueline Hurst: Gosh, it’s, um, it’s a it’s always [00:01:55] quite a tough question. That one it reminds me of when I wrote my book and, um, I’d written [00:02:00] everything together and my publisher said to me, right now we need a chapter on you. And I was like, don’t be silly. Nobody [00:02:05] needs that. And he’s like, no, no, we need that because we want to know that a, you know what you’re talking [00:02:10] about. And B, how you got where you got to to give us advice. Why would we, you know, why would we [00:02:15] care what you have to tell us your story. And I always find that part and I should probably [00:02:20] look into this myself of the why. But I always find that part really. Um, I still [00:02:25] feel quite touched by the the process of the journey for myself. And I also understand [00:02:30] that it was all working perfectly, which is a big you know, it’s a big thing I still [00:02:35] think about today how things are working perfectly, whether we think they are at the time or whether [00:02:40] we don’t. There’s always this bigger picture. So my journey started really when I was much, much [00:02:45] younger. Um, I looked like on the outside I had this beautiful, wonderful life. [00:02:50] Um, and actually behind closed doors, things were very difficult. Um, I had parents [00:02:55] that went off, um, to America, uh, from when I was ten [00:03:00] years old. They would go off for months at a time, and we were left pretty much on our own to [00:03:05] sort of learn how to, in their words, be independent. And, um, it was [00:03:10] a tough experience for me. Um, I had to learn very quickly to always sort [00:03:15] of portray I was okay.

Jaqueline Hurst: I never wanted to let anybody down. I was always fine when, [00:03:20] you know, they called and everything when actually behind the scenes, it wasn’t that at all. I was being bullied very badly [00:03:25] at school. I had no friends. Um, I got into the wrong crowds, and then [00:03:30] I got into drugs, alcohol, anorexia, all of those things from a very young age of around 15. [00:03:35] So from the age of 15 to 25, um, my life was a shambles, a [00:03:40] total mess, you know, Class A’s, um, whatever I could use [00:03:45] to take myself away from myself. I got into, you know, crazy situations. I’m [00:03:50] very lucky to still be alive. Um, that’s a snapshot of that at 25. [00:03:55] I had a moment of deciding that, you know, I tried suicide [00:04:00] 3 or 4 times. I’d got to a point where it was like, I can’t go any lower, right? [00:04:05] Like, there has to be something different. And, um, I was sort [00:04:10] of lucky I got given this sort of gift of desperation, we call it. And it was it was [00:04:15] a total and utter breakdown. And from that space, every, every day, from [00:04:20] that space, I’ve. I’ve changed and grown and, you know, changed, turned my, my life around, got clean, [00:04:25] got sober, got well with my food and my body image and my eating disorders. Got [00:04:30] through all of my addictions. And, um, I’m coming to my 22nd year clean, [00:04:35] actually. Now. Thank you. So, yeah, through that process, all of that, um, that was how it all [00:04:40] started, basically. But through that process, it’s literally person A and person B today. [00:04:45]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. That’s amazing. Do you think. And I’m also like very mindful [00:04:50] not to blame parents because I think that our parents did [00:04:55] the best that they could with the knowledge that they had at the time. But with emerging [00:05:00] research and psychiatrists really studying attachment and attachment [00:05:05] styles, I think the presence of parents at pivotal [00:05:10] growth points is really important to our development. Do [00:05:15] you think in some way, without attaching blame to your parents, that that [00:05:20] sense of abandonment perhaps triggered you to make some of the decisions [00:05:25] that you did?

Jaqueline Hurst: I definitely think that’s a really great topic, and I’m really glad you brought that up. We [00:05:30] are starting off with we’re in a society at the moment where you know, your parents are toxic, [00:05:35] don’t speak to them, blah, blah. You know, we’re in a really interesting space with all of [00:05:40] that. For me personally, I come from a space of it’s all happening how it’s [00:05:45] meant to be happening. And that’s ultimately, if they knew better, they would [00:05:50] do better. And so they didn’t know better. So one can either stand around [00:05:55] and hold anger and frustration and hatred and, you know, pain towards them, or [00:06:00] you can do your work, go into coaching, understand it, unravel it, and [00:06:05] have complete peace around that space. So it’s a really important thing to say. So [00:06:10] for me, there is no blame at all around my parents. They absolutely did [00:06:15] the best they could with what they had, which isn’t what I’ve got and isn’t what many people have got. But that generation [00:06:20] also was very, very different. And look what they had learned from. Right? And it goes [00:06:25] backwards and backwards.

Jaqueline Hurst: So I would start off with that conversation. I think that [00:06:30] childhood development is a really important topic of conversation. And I also think that [00:06:35] parents, you know, can also over give to their children where they can suffocate their children and that [00:06:40] can cause problems. So there’s a million things that could cause somebody to go [00:06:45] the route I went through. And two, it could we could say yes, it was abandonment. [00:06:50] And it was, you know, a failure of this part and that part. But that was my journey, and that was how it was [00:06:55] meant to be. And I don’t think that parenting comes with a handbook, and I don’t [00:07:00] think I think parents tried the best they can with and do with what they’ve got, ideally. My personal opinion [00:07:05] is if you have kids, bring your kids up, be available, love them. They [00:07:10] don’t have to have things all the time. They just have to know that they’re loved and that there’s someone there that they can talk [00:07:15] to. That’s a really important thing to do if you’re going to have kids. But, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Have you [00:07:20] got kids?

Jaqueline Hurst: I haven’t got kids. I couldn’t have children. I got told that very young in my 20s. [00:07:25] I actually couldn’t have kids.

Rhona Eskander: And was that because of any medical implications of [00:07:30] what your body had been through, or was that just.

Jaqueline Hurst: I don’t know if the medical implications were part of me not [00:07:35] having kids. I just got told I couldn’t have them. It was going to be like basically impossible. And [00:07:40] again, it was another experience for me. And it’s not actually something that I talk about. So that’s, you know, not [00:07:45] that I’ve got anything to hide, but um, for me, that was sort of I was told, you need. This [00:07:50] is how it is now. I’m a I’m a super positive thinker. So I always believed if I really wanted to have [00:07:55] kids, there would be ways around that, right? You know, there’s adoption, um, etc. [00:08:00] etc. so my journey and my path didn’t take me down that route. But I do believe [00:08:05] that because I didn’t have children, I had this space to grow my business. And [00:08:10] I’ve worked with over 9000 clients now, and that has been so enlightening [00:08:15] for me. And I have really been able to give a lot, you know, through that process. So I feel very [00:08:20] grateful for that. And I’m never someone who lives in a, you know, if this is the fact and [00:08:25] this is what it is, I’ve got to find ways to think about that, to make myself feel all right about it. I’m never going to [00:08:30] be someone who sits in a victim mentality of like, this is terrible. My life’s over. You [00:08:35] know? You’ve got there’s a process to that, but you can’t stay in that forever.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I think I think a lot of people [00:08:40] do. But there’s a few things that I want to unpack. First of all, either one of you seen adolescence?

Jaqueline Hurst: Not yet. [00:08:45]

Rhona Eskander: No, it is a masterpiece I really recommend, especially because you’re [00:08:50] in the space of like coaching and so forth, and there’s so much psychology and psychotherapy around it, I [00:08:55] won’t spoil it for you, but essentially it’s about a young boy that gets accused of [00:09:00] stabbing a young girl to death. And when you hear the producers and the writers, they said that, you know, the reason they [00:09:05] were inspired to write this story is because of what is going on in London, which is [00:09:10] very prevalent now. You know, you’ve got these young boys attacking young girls, and it’s [00:09:15] a lower class family up north, you know. And, you know, a loving kind of family from [00:09:20] Liverpool. And they cannot work out how their son turned out like this. [00:09:25] And it’s so, so powerful in so many senses. But talking [00:09:30] about the parenthood side, you would say that looking at them fine. They’re not the most well-off [00:09:35] family, but they were very emotionally available, I think, to the child. And obviously, when the [00:09:40] child is going through the justice and legal side of things, you see an episode [00:09:45] where the parents are like, I could have done better. I’m sorry I wasn’t there. I’m sorry I didn’t intervene. [00:09:50] And you know, one of the rises of violence and misogyny and young [00:09:55] boys is because of this manosphere and this toxic masculinity narrative and how young [00:10:00] boys are being let down. It’s absolutely fascinating. It’s really, really well done. But my [00:10:05] point is, it was interesting to see because as you said, you know, people [00:10:10] find it really easy to blame parents. And even in the show, you could see that the parents [00:10:15] were being tormented by the public because they were like, your son did this, it’s your fault. [00:10:20] It’s the parenting and so forth. But it’s really I think people really just do [00:10:25] the best that they can with the knowledge they have 100%. And I think it’s actually extremely toxic [00:10:30] that we blame parents for children.

Payman Langroudi: Leave blame out of it. I mean, the reason why I asked whether you’ve got kids [00:10:35] or not is that you must. Some of your clients, let’s say, who have got kids, do [00:10:40] they do people sometimes overcompensate for what the deficit that they think their parents [00:10:45] gave 100%.

Jaqueline Hurst: In fact, I was having a conversation like this with my sister recently. She has two children and you [00:10:50] know, she is the opposite of what we got brought up with. She is fully 180% [00:10:55] available for her children. And, you know, and that’s lovely in one way.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes [00:11:00] too much.

Jaqueline Hurst: And it could possibly be too much in another way. So she’s having to learn how to balance [00:11:05] that. But again, you could be the most loving, wonderful, amazing parent doing everything you [00:11:10] possibly could. And your kids still might blame you for things, but you never this and but this [00:11:15] was too much. And so you know, this is why one has to learn how to step into, [00:11:20] which is what I teach clients your own emotional adulthood. You’ve got to unpack. Can I swear [00:11:25] because I yeah, of course, holding it back. But you got to unpack your shit, right? Because if you spend [00:11:30] your life blaming. My mom did this and my dad did that, and my ex husband did this, and my friend did that. [00:11:35] Like, you’re never going to grow and you’re never going to take responsibility for yourself. And ultimately you’re never going to be happy or [00:11:40] at peace.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I really agree with that because on the outside, like, my parents are amazing. Payman [00:11:45] had the pleasure of meeting them. They’re extremely emotionally available and kind, and we’re [00:11:50] there. They couldn’t be totally present with the schooling and stuff, because they were immigrants that were [00:11:55] working like three jobs at once to keep us in a private school, quite frankly. Yeah. And some people might be [00:12:00] like, you had a nanny because we had the nanny from the Middle East. I’m like, a nanny really didn’t affect me. Like, there [00:12:05] was so much judgement that I had a nanny, but that was the only way they could do it to make it work for [00:12:10] my system. However, what I would say is, is that I suffer with crippling [00:12:15] rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria. I cannot.

Jaqueline Hurst: Sorry. Wait, what? What [00:12:20] is.

Rhona Eskander: Rejection sensitivity? Dysphoria? So I was a late diagnosed ADHD person [00:12:25] by my therapist. And so like I take rejection so badly. [00:12:30] You know, this like, beyond, like someone could make a passing comment and I will internalise [00:12:35] it and hate myself and go into this like.

Jaqueline Hurst: Deep really controversial with you.

Rhona Eskander: Here. [00:12:40] Yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: So one has to be really careful with labels. Okay. Just [00:12:45] putting it on the table here. When I was going through getting clean and getting sober and even [00:12:50] the hormonal issues, all of these things that I’ve had, people have always wanted to slap labels [00:12:55] on me. I mean, I could give you a list of 17 labels. People in white coats told me, you know, [00:13:00] I don’t mean literally white coats, but I mean doctors here and specialists there, right?

Payman Langroudi: They become self-fulfilling, [00:13:05] don’t they? In a way. Once you give yourself a label, you kind of live out that to it. Right.

Jaqueline Hurst: So I [00:13:10] this rejection thing, I would I would at some point love to clearly [00:13:15] not a podcast, but I would love to unpack that with you because I’m already I’m [00:13:20] going to say to you, I’m not sure I agree with that. And I think that many people suffer [00:13:25] with rejection, and rejection is a mind made thing.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:13:30] think the thing is, is like, look, I mean, Payman know me for a number of years now.

Payman Langroudi: She certainly is very, very sensitive to.

Rhona Eskander: Like. [00:13:35]

Payman Langroudi: Unexpectedly sensitive.

Rhona Eskander: Like, I can I can go someone will say something. Someone [00:13:40] said something to me on Sunday. A friend and she didn’t know what she [00:13:45] said had incredibly hurt me, and I just went into the shower afterwards and I was like, sobbing [00:13:50] for like an hour and a half.

Jaqueline Hurst: So, so mindset management. And again, this is really hard just to like unpack [00:13:55] this in one podcast because this is work that I do with my clients and it’s taken over like a series of sessions. But [00:14:00] I’m just going to drop this down here and you can disagree. And it’s cool. I will teach my clients [00:14:05] that when people say things or do things or act in certain ways or whatever, [00:14:10] whatever, actually how you think about that is what matters, [00:14:15] because we can’t control what that person said. How you’re interpreting that in your brain is what hurt [00:14:20] you. Totally not what she said.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. But that that gets me onto the point that I was saying about my [00:14:25] parents is that because of the certain things that my parents have brought [00:14:30] me up thinking, and on the outset, it’s like extremely loving. There is this kind [00:14:35] of confirmation bias that I’ve created in my head that’s like [00:14:40] this person has said that. And the way that I’m receiving the information internalising it is because of my kind [00:14:45] of core belief of what I’ve been brought up with. Right? So, for example, there [00:14:50] has been this aspect of I don’t want to say conditional love, but kind [00:14:55] of it’s like, again, like immigrant mentality. Like the more you achieve, the better that you are, the more [00:15:00] you’re loved. Okay. So that always has been like projected into every aspect of my life. [00:15:05] So when I hear someone say something negative, I’m like, they essentially [00:15:10] are saying I am not good enough because that is the way, right? That’s always like, that is everything. And I [00:15:15] understand that I have total awareness around that. And obviously it’s easier said than done whilst [00:15:20] I have done all the work and I can be like, this is not this is the way like and that’s why I’ve stopped, like [00:15:25] reacting when they say something, but sometimes it internally hurts. You know, I’m human. [00:15:30]

Payman Langroudi: It’s like sometimes you’re thinking about it is one thing, but feeling it is a whole other thing.

Rhona Eskander: Correct. And I think [00:15:35] that I can be like the way that I’m processing this information may not be the way Jacqueline [00:15:40] or Payman is processing the information.

Payman Langroudi: Because you’re planning kids soon, right? So do you reckon [00:15:45] you’re going to overcompensate for that?

Jaqueline Hurst: You can process that differently.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: I know you’re like, I’ve done [00:15:50] all the work on it. But the thing is, is to a point, because if you had done [00:15:55] some other work on it, right, you will hear [00:16:00] what this person says.

Rhona Eskander: And be okay with it.

Jaqueline Hurst: And be totally okay. [00:16:05]

Rhona Eskander: I’d love to get that, but we’ll book a session after. Can I.

Jaqueline Hurst: Just. The whole reason I want to say [00:16:10] that is not to be contentious, but to say one doesn’t have to live like that just because we have been programmed [00:16:15] that way. Right. I got brought up believing I had zero worth. [00:16:20] Right? If I was valuable, why have you left? Okay. That was my internal [00:16:25] thing, right? Total. I must not be worth shit. Yeah, right. [00:16:30] I don’t believe that at all. So if someone says something to me or does something or whatever, [00:16:35] whatever, I don’t internalise that the way I would have done as a kid. And that work [00:16:40] takes work, right? But it’s 100% possible to change. So I, as you can tell, [00:16:45] as straight talking as you said, no nonsense. I wouldn’t want if you were my client. I wouldn’t want you holding on to [00:16:50] that stuff and telling yourself like, oh, I’m not saying that you are, but like, oh, but this is what happened [00:16:55] to me and this is how I process it. And that’s it. Because it isn’t it. You can change that. And that [00:17:00] is how you make your life fucking amazing.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, okay, I got it, I got [00:17:05] it.

Payman Langroudi: Do you think you need to have gone through suffering and pain [00:17:10] in order to be a really, like, successful coach?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think my authenticity [00:17:15] people know when I work with them that I’m not talking from a I’ve read a book and I’m a [00:17:20] life coach space like been there, seen it, done it, got the t shirt. So I would believe that that’s a [00:17:25] huge part of my success. It’s really, really authentic.

Rhona Eskander: Hey, we had this chat because I had my life coach [00:17:30] come on, and I said, I worked with a life coach for a year and someone that I went to university [00:17:35] is. And one of the big reasons that I chose him is because.

Payman Langroudi: He’s been through.

Rhona Eskander: It. Because [00:17:40] he’d been through the depths of hell. Sorry. I’m going to be blunt. Why am I going to choose someone that [00:17:45] has not been? The whole point is, I’m like, you went through that, you came out of it. I’m going to learn [00:17:50] from you and that’s it.

Payman Langroudi: Like, if I want to.

Rhona Eskander: If this is where we disagree.

Payman Langroudi: I want a full mouth reconstruction. [00:17:55] I don’t have to come to the dentist who’s had a full mouth reconstruction themselves. Listen, I understand [00:18:00] how it’s how it’s helped your story and sort of the centre of your authenticity and maybe, [00:18:05] you know, call it marketing, whatever you want. But my question is, do you believe that someone who hasn’t [00:18:10] been through it can’t be as effective?

Jaqueline Hurst: I can only talk from my personal experience.

Payman Langroudi: In the industry. [00:18:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: And I know that when I was looking for help back in the day, I. I [00:18:20] was an addict. I had a really clever fucking brain. Right? I could [00:18:25] run rings around people that had not experienced or done anything I’d done, [00:18:30] and that wasn’t. I’m not saying that’s a good thing. It was not a good thing. But I had to go and learn [00:18:35] it myself to get better. So do I believe that? Yes. Is my industry unregulated? [00:18:40] Yes. Can anybody read a book and go? I I’ve left my job [00:18:45] in finance and I’m going to be a life coach. Great. And they might be amazing at marketing and they might [00:18:50] have 80 billion followers on Instagram. And people go, oh, that person must be an amazing [00:18:55] life coach. I should go and buy their stuff. And what is their life experience? [00:19:00] And so yes, the answer to your question is yes. I do believe [00:19:05] people in my industry have to have lived a life to know how to [00:19:10] help people. As a coach, I’m not giving people necessarily advice on what they [00:19:15] should do. I don’t know what they should do. What I do is I teach people how to think [00:19:20] and then they work out for themselves what they should do.

Payman Langroudi: For instance, if someone had the opposite problem that you had, [00:19:25] so you’re saying you had low self-esteem. Let’s say someone’s the opposite. Like like [00:19:30] too confident, overconfident, not self-aware. Yeah. Can you help that person since you [00:19:35] haven’t been in that position?

Jaqueline Hurst: 100%. If they want help.

Rhona Eskander: That’s the. That’s the [00:19:40] most important thing. Also, the key thing that she said here was experience. You just complain. You just said, if [00:19:45] I want a full mouth rehabilitation and you’ve not had one. Well, I’m sorry if someone had just come out of dental [00:19:50] school and treated one patient, I’m not going to go to them for a full mouth rehab. I’d rather go to someone with ten [00:19:55] years experience. Experience is the key thing.

Payman Langroudi: Having been through it yourself question.

Jaqueline Hurst: Having been through it [00:20:00] yourself. Yes, I think especially in my industry, I am a believer of yes, someone has to.

Rhona Eskander: My ex boyfriend [00:20:05] was a charlatan and quit his job to become a life coach and was a narcissist and the most awful [00:20:10] human being. It was a joke and he became a life coach. So yes, I do think it [00:20:15] is unregulated and can be dangerous, but I do also think there’s a place for it. And I [00:20:20] do think some of the coaches that I’ve worked with over the years have been better than therapists, dare I say. [00:20:25] And also, but you’ve really got to do your due diligence. And the danger is, is when you’re [00:20:30] vulnerable, you want help, so you don’t necessarily do your due diligence. And that’s that’s the because [00:20:35] I got myself.

Payman Langroudi: No, look, it’s super unfair to ask this. Yeah, but.

Jaqueline Hurst: No, no, please go ahead.

Payman Langroudi: I’m ready for it [00:20:40] because, you know, it takes hours and hours of talking to people. But in that situation where you’ve got Aruna [00:20:45] saying I’m never good enough. Yeah. And you want to switch that.

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah. [00:20:50]

Payman Langroudi: What are like, what are three top tips that people who feel like that should, should bear in mind?

Jaqueline Hurst: So [00:20:55] first of all, it’s not a feeling. It’s a thought. Right. We don’t feel it. We think it. And [00:21:00] you are in control of your head and your thinking. Right. So you have you have got choices [00:21:05] as to how you think. That’s really important to understand. So the first thing is consciousness, right? Become [00:21:10] conscious of what you’re thinking and and do that, you know, like really become [00:21:15] aware what is going on in my head because most of the time we walk around totally unconscious and [00:21:20] unaware, and you’ve just got this cycle of thoughts going through your brain, like all the time. So [00:21:25] my first tip is get conscious and become aware of what you’re actually thinking. And you, it’s [00:21:30] likely you’re going to find that you are really unkind to yourself. You’re really negative to yourself. [00:21:35] It’s something you’re never, ever, ever going to say to your friend. Ever. Why? [00:21:40] Because fucking mean and rude. So that’s important to think about if I’m not going to say it to them, [00:21:45] why is it all right that I say it to me? Right. So that’s also important to do. And then I would [00:21:50] ask you to look at where the thought comes from and what your life might look like if [00:21:55] you changed it. That’s really powerful. Like, what happens if I look at that [00:22:00] and think I can switch it around and think, actually, I am of value, even [00:22:05] if it’s just to, you know, my kids or my husband. I’m of value, [00:22:10] right? That’s already going to start to change things.

Payman Langroudi: So now you have that insight. Are there tactics [00:22:15] as well?

Jaqueline Hurst: What do you mean tactics?

Payman Langroudi: I don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: Tools. He’s saying like tools. Like in that moment.

Payman Langroudi: Like maybe you [00:22:20] teach her, you know, in that moment, whatever it is, I’m.

Jaqueline Hurst: A big believer of writing [00:22:25] things down. I love, love, love every day. Yeah. And I.

Rhona Eskander: Love it. I love [00:22:30] journaling, it’s the most powerful thing for me.

Payman Langroudi: Do you go back? Do you go back in your journal and look what you wrote six months [00:22:35] ago?

Rhona Eskander: Since I was 11 years old. And I have all.

Payman Langroudi: Of them in a cupboard. Look, when you look at what you were writing six months ago, do [00:22:40] you sometimes laugh at how silly you were being or something?

Rhona Eskander: Because for me, it was never silly.

Payman Langroudi: And sometimes they’re not [00:22:45] journaling like what you were thinking. What you were thinking was incorrect.

Rhona Eskander: Six months. I understand that that [00:22:50] was what was important to me at that time. And the whole point, I mean, some people have the train of thought [00:22:55] that like, you should write things down and then not look at it or burn it or whatever. I actually don’t mind [00:23:00] looking back at stuff. And I’m like, oh, that was interesting because I’d forgotten.

Payman Langroudi: What patterns do you see when you see when you look back [00:23:05] at it?

Rhona Eskander: Um, there is this like pattern of desperation and wanting [00:23:10] to kind of, I mean, I don’t know, like there’s lots of different things. Like, sometimes it’s, [00:23:15] you know, I love to write when I travel. So it might also be about what I’ve done or, um, [00:23:20] the things that, you know, we’ve experienced. There’s sometimes gratitude in there. And I find that that’s [00:23:25] really powerful in the day. And the gratitude would be like just had the most amazing oat milk flat white. And it tasted [00:23:30] amazing, you know? And I’m really grateful I’m writing here amongst the pyramids. Do you know what I mean? So [00:23:35] there’s things like that which I find is really great. And I do think there is power and gratitude and gratitude isn’t this constant [00:23:40] thing of like, my life is amazing. Be grateful there are people less privileged. Like, I really do think it’s being like [00:23:45] like looking around and being like, what am I appreciating? It could be even like being in a clean and quiet house this morning. Do you [00:23:50] see what I mean? It’s just so yeah, for me, that’s it. And sometimes it is just a stream of consciousness being like, I’m waking [00:23:55] up feeling anxious. I don’t know what’s going on. It might not even make sense. Just like stream of consciousness. It’s fine, but [00:24:00] it’s all out in the morning. And then I’m like, okay, great. So I do agree that writing really.

Payman Langroudi: Helps you say write is [00:24:05] the benefit. Both that getting it out of your head and the review.

Jaqueline Hurst: With the people. [00:24:10]

Payman Langroudi: That you.

Jaqueline Hurst: Work with. It’s not just a journaling is really important. It’s not just journaling. It’s about understanding tools and techniques [00:24:15] to actually learn how to change your brain. How does it work, right? Like how do you change your minds [00:24:20] and get into a space of it’s not positive thinking, right? Because that to me is I [00:24:25] love the idea of it. Just that never worked for me. Like, I could never stand in front of a mirror and go, I [00:24:30] feel really confident today. Like, no, it just wasn’t going to work. So there’s tools and techniques to [00:24:35] teach you how to get there, to be able to have an end result of being in a looking in a mirror and going, [00:24:40] yeah, I’ve fucking got this. Bring it on. Right. That’s great. And so there are ways to do that. And that [00:24:45] requires a pen and a paper, you know, and I think there’s something special about getting it from your [00:24:50] head, you know, clearly on paper and working it through. It’s [00:24:55] annoying for people because we’re in the day and age of everything’s fast, but actually when you slow it down, it’s really helpful. [00:25:00] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Have you noticed that how many years have you been doing this?

Jaqueline Hurst: Since? [00:25:05] Pretty much since I got clean. I got clean at 20. I got clean in 2003. [00:25:10]

Payman Langroudi: So have you noticed that the problems have changed a lot since mobile phones? [00:25:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: Um, yeah, drastically.

Payman Langroudi: It’s definitely the cause of a bunch of pain.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s it’s [00:25:20] we are totally disconnected from each other, you know? It’s it’s really [00:25:25] the thing I hate the most is when I walk past, like a family at a restaurant of, like, two kids, you know what I’m going [00:25:30] to say? And parents, and they’re all on the phone. And it’s to me that’s really upsetting. And I’m a real believer of, you [00:25:35] know, being very careful with your tech and having, having, controlling your tech [00:25:40] rather than letting it control you.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that. And I saw a huge difference. And my friend that I was just telling [00:25:45] you about in Dubai, I mean, she sounds a little bit like your sister. I think she came from a difficult, [00:25:50] broken home and as a result, gives like 300% to her kids. And she definitely made [00:25:55] the choice. I think at one point she wanted to be a career woman, and then she made the choice of being like, no, I’m going to [00:26:00] really dedicate, you know, my life to basically my kids upbringing. And now she’s [00:26:05] thinking about transitioning back into work. But anyway, when I went to go see her, her kids, they [00:26:10] were so amazing. And I rarely say that because I’m not someone that’s super maternal or broody [00:26:15] or anything like that, but I was like, they were such a pleasure to be around. And my husband and I were like, [00:26:20] oh my God, they are so intelligent, so inquisitive, so present. And I was [00:26:25] like, Anna, what have you done? And, you know, she said to me, she was like, and I and I noticed it, no iPads [00:26:30] or no mobile phones. And it was.

Payman Langroudi: Well, at.

Rhona Eskander: Last it was at all. They had to use the, [00:26:35] uh, ten. No, sorry. Eight and six.

Payman Langroudi: All right.

Rhona Eskander: That’s eight and six. Right.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:26:40] you’re right. There’s plenty of two year olds with iPads.

Rhona Eskander: Eight and six. And she said to me something [00:26:45] similar. She goes, you know, I realised if you give a child something that’s less intelligent [00:26:50] than them, like a piece of paper or a ball, they’ll be creative and they’ll use their brains on how to make [00:26:55] it interesting. If you give them something like technology, which is smarter than them, their [00:27:00] brains will start to slow down. And I really saw that because they were constantly being creative around the [00:27:05] house, and you could see that there was like this little distraction. They wanted to be present, they wanted [00:27:10] to be outside. There is no judgement because I do believe, like, again, some parents, that’s what they [00:27:15] use as a coping tool. But I really felt the difference when I saw the way her kids were interacting. [00:27:20]

Jaqueline Hurst: Didn’t Steve? Was it Steve Jobs that said I would never give my kids an iPhone? Okay, so like, [00:27:25] why have why have we not listened to that? Like, this is seriously, like I always say, [00:27:30] people tell you what you want to know. Yeah, you just got to listen, right? So if he’s [00:27:35] saying that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so true. It’s so true. I want to I know [00:27:40] that we digressed a lot into the mindset stuff already, but for [00:27:45] you, kind of like late 20s or sort of, um, early 20s. Like what would [00:27:50] your typical day have looked like back then?

Jaqueline Hurst: We’re talking about when I’m in my when I was in my addiction. [00:27:55] Addiction, you know, it was a very dark time and it [00:28:00] still makes me feel quite emotional when I think about it. For the girl that I was then and [00:28:05] I was living, um, literally, I was in some ways I was functioning in other [00:28:10] ways, I really wasn’t. But I would tell you that most of my time was spent behind closed doors, closed [00:28:15] curtains, and on my own, using drugs. Um, I did have a job, and [00:28:20] I could function on that, but a lot of the time it was literally I [00:28:25] was completely isolated.

Rhona Eskander: What was your.

Jaqueline Hurst: Job? I was working as a PA, and, um, [00:28:30] you know, I was, you know, doing cocaine in the toilets at most of most of the time. And, [00:28:35] um, you know, it was it was crazy. And then in the evenings, I would go home [00:28:40] and smoke a load of dope and, you know, shut myself off from the world and, you know, or or it [00:28:45] was, you know, if I was in the mood to actually go out and do something, it would be crazy shit [00:28:50] that, you know, I would go out and come back three days later. Um, and [00:28:55] it was a wild, wild time. And, you know, as I keep saying, [00:29:00] I’m really lucky to say, you know, I’d wake up in different countries sometimes and think, how the fuck did I get here?

Rhona Eskander: Did [00:29:05] you have any real friends at the time? No, none. Yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: No I didn’t. [00:29:10]

Rhona Eskander: I think that’s really.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s probably very hard to be friendly with someone like me. Back then, it was [00:29:15] probably impossible actually to do that.

Rhona Eskander: So what was the day? That was the turning point.

Jaqueline Hurst: So the day that [00:29:20] was the turning point was I was living in a squat. I had nothing, no money to my name.

Rhona Eskander: And not in touch with your [00:29:25] family at this point.

Jaqueline Hurst: Wasn’t in touch with my family. And, um, my mum had found out [00:29:30] like that. I was down the road and knocked on the door and [00:29:35] came in and said, you know, you’re my daughter and I love you. And are [00:29:40] you depressed? Like what’s going on? And I don’t know why at that moment, [00:29:45] in that moment, you know, I think I had I think I’d really hit the floor [00:29:50] at this point. And I just thought, I need to say to someone the truth. And I just looked at her [00:29:55] and said, I’m a drug addict and I need help. And she took me to my first meeting. She said, what do I do? I [00:30:00] said, I think you go to a meeting. I’ve heard of meetings. And that was the day I got clean. 27th of [00:30:05] August 2003.

Rhona Eskander: Do you still go to the meetings?

Jaqueline Hurst: No, I went for about six years. It [00:30:10] was the it saved my life wholeheartedly. Saved my life.

Rhona Eskander: So you believe in the program? [00:30:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: I do 100% believe in the A program, the Narcotics Anonymous program. It was [00:30:20] different back then. Um, I wholeheartedly believe in it. I 100% [00:30:25] became who I am from that space. Without that wouldn’t be here. Like, [00:30:30] I owe it my life, I really do. And it is a bridge to normal living. [00:30:35] And like I was saying earlier about labels, I don’t want to be labelled [00:30:40] anything. I want to cross the bridge to normal living. I don’t want to sit in that space. And I [00:30:45] have a very controversial view of addiction, which is different from those in the rooms now. [00:30:50] Um, I do, I do sometimes pop into meetings. I did go back last year because my [00:30:55] father passed away, and that was an incredibly difficult time, and it was the only time in, as [00:31:00] I say, I’m coming up 22 years in August. It was the only time in 22 years I had actually contemplated [00:31:05] it again, which was a very frightening space to be in, and I was grateful to go to a meeting, [00:31:10] you know, or to, um, but I think it’s a really powerful, powerful program.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t [00:31:15] it rare that people, the first time they go to a meeting, stop [00:31:20] using drugs? Are you the kind of person who’s like, all in on it? I’m in the 4%, all in on the [00:31:25] drugs in the first place.

Jaqueline Hurst: Percent of people that get clean and stay clean. 4%?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:31:30]

Payman Langroudi: Is that in your character that you go all into stuff like I do?

Jaqueline Hurst: Very much go all in. [00:31:35] But I also believe that it was it was, you know, I was broken. It was a gift of desperation. [00:31:40] I was if you’d have said to me at that point, run down Oxford Street stark naked, and this will [00:31:45] get you clean, I would have done it.

Rhona Eskander: But you know, but I do think it is a type of person, because I [00:31:50] had a friend that was an addict and, um, is an addict [00:31:55] was open about it, very open about it. Um, but would think that he [00:32:00] could control his ability to get clean because he go through lapses. [00:32:05] So he’d be clean for two months, three months, then relapse. And the behaviour [00:32:10] that I observed became too much. And the thing is, it wasn’t because I didn’t want to support [00:32:15] him through the process, it’s just that he didn’t really show signs of ever wanting [00:32:20] to get clean. And, you know, like. And this is the thing. Yeah. And it’s like, he then [00:32:25] had a friend that tried to be, like, gave him an ultimatum because all his relationships broke [00:32:30] down in his life and have continued to break down still to this day. And I had reached a point, you know, where I was, [00:32:35] like money had been taken away. Um, there was too much at this point. I’ve had [00:32:40] enough, you know, like three years of this friendship. I just like I can’t do anymore. Because if you don’t want to help yourself, like no one else can help [00:32:45] you. So someone else came into his life and said, listen, like, because he’d found out [00:32:50] he’d been taking drugs and he said, you have to go. He went to one meeting, half arsed online, and then that was [00:32:55] it, you know, and then just keeps relapsing. So I do think it’s about that commitment. We had an amazing [00:33:00] inspirational ex addict on the podcast as well, Hunter Michael Shepherd, who also [00:33:05] runs a huge program in the US. And he was addicted I think since the age of 12, you [00:33:10] know, and really, really hardcore Core reached rock bottom like you has been clean ever since. [00:33:15] Helps a lot of young people.

Payman Langroudi: Your friend hasn’t reached rock bottom yet, but.

Rhona Eskander: He has reached rock bottom. He has. That’s [00:33:20] the crazy thing.

Jaqueline Hurst: He wouldn’t have done. And I think that we don’t know when it’s our time to reach rock bottom. [00:33:25] And I think addiction is a terribly sad thing to do. And, you know, addicts get a really bad rap. They [00:33:30] get a really bad rap because they do things that aren’t really who they are because they’re ill. And, you [00:33:35] know, until you hit a space where you are willing to rip yourself [00:33:40] apart, really willing to rip yourself apart, stare at all of your defects, [00:33:45] all of your shortcomings. Look at your part in things, all these things that you really have to do. Rip [00:33:50] apart your ego. Get really humble. Learn to say sorry right until you [00:33:55] are in a space in your life which they call it the gift of desperation for a [00:34:00] reason, then there isn’t going to be any change. And so it’s. And the problem is, if [00:34:05] only we could magic something that could make people at that point we’d [00:34:10] be multi gazillionaires. But people either get that or they don’t. And [00:34:15] it’s also not their fault.

Rhona Eskander: Totally. Well, that brings me on to my next point, because obviously I’ve been obsessed with the work [00:34:20] of Doctor Gabor Matte for years. And I read In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, which talks [00:34:25] about a lot of the patients that he was seeing, and that was the first time that I viewed addiction in a completely [00:34:30] different way, because the way that he I mean, I don’t know if you agree or [00:34:35] disagree with it, but at the end of the day, he totally creates a [00:34:40] sense of understanding and empathy for addicts because he’s like, we are treating this [00:34:45] completely in the wrong way. We’re punishing them, we’re blaming them, we’re stigmatising them. And I was [00:34:50] like, ah, okay. Like this is starting to make sense to me.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s really important. It’s really belittling. [00:34:55] I remember when I was married and I was engaged to my ex-husband and, um, someone [00:35:00] at a drinks party said to him in front of me, um, why would [00:35:05] you want to marry a guy like that? That was an addict. And this guy was supposedly, you know, had [00:35:10] gone to public school and was supposedly intelligent. And I remember looking at a guy like that thinking, [00:35:15] I feel sad for him, that he still sits in the space of stigmatising people [00:35:20] that have got addiction.

Rhona Eskander: Agreed.

Jaqueline Hurst: You know, agreed. It was, you know, [00:35:25] people just need education on that.

Rhona Eskander: And actually, I think more and more the society that [00:35:30] we’re living in, regardless of the fact that, you know, we’re able to function because we have food and all [00:35:35] the things that, you know, our great grandparents and everything didn’t have. We’re living in a really difficult [00:35:40] time. And it’s become it’s you want to escape the reality. I empathise with so [00:35:45] many people. I mean, I struggle. I’m actually teetotal, been teetotal my whole life [00:35:50] because I knew I had an addictive personality. Really weirdly from a young age. [00:35:55] And I was like, I’m not going to drink. It was like this weird thing, like. And everyone’s like, oh, did you used to drink? I’m like, never [00:36:00] drank, never touched a cigarette, never would touch a vape. Do you know what I mean? Anything like that. Because I [00:36:05] know the way that my brain works. And I’m really glad because also I self-soothe [00:36:10] in other ways, like I self-soothe with like validation, for example, posting social media, all that kind [00:36:15] of thing.

Jaqueline Hurst: And I love that you can say that and be so clear about what you know that [00:36:20] you’re doing. Yeah, a lot of people do these things and they have zero awareness [00:36:25] of why. Yeah. So it’s really powerful that you know that. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: You know, if she goes to a retreat [00:36:30] and they give her mushroom tea, she’ll have that.

Rhona Eskander: Listen no no no.

Jaqueline Hurst: He’s like not getting involved [00:36:35] in this. No no no no no no.

Rhona Eskander: That that number one. That’s not [00:36:40] true. Again the plant medicine space is something that it is. It’s [00:36:45] true. Like the plant medicine space is something again through Doctor Gabor Matte that I’m interested in. It’s not [00:36:50] to say I haven’t. I wanted to explore ayahuasca once, for example, in South America with [00:36:55] the I didn’t do it in the end for whatever reason, but that is a space that I’m interested in. [00:37:00] It’s no, it’s not. I don’t have any interest in like going and getting high. And when you actually understand how these medicines [00:37:05] work, it’s not about going getting high, you know. It is, it is, it is. I’m very precious about [00:37:10] this thing, you know, because I do think that when done with the right intention, with the right people and the right space, it can. And [00:37:15] I’ve seen some people change their lives through that, not me.

Payman Langroudi: I’m all for it, man.

Rhona Eskander: I know, but you want to [00:37:20] get it high. But I don’t think ayahuasca will. After after a huge vomiting session. You might [00:37:25] be saying otherwise.

Payman Langroudi: What’s your typical client like? Are they like.

Jaqueline Hurst: I wish I could say I have a typical one. [00:37:30] I spend a lot of time signing NDAs, which is interesting. So that’s pretty much my typical [00:37:35] client. Um.

Rhona Eskander: And it’s mostly Americans or UK based or both. [00:37:40]

Jaqueline Hurst: Everywhere.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine.

Jaqueline Hurst: Like everywhere. And, um. Yeah. And you know, but it [00:37:45] doesn’t have to be that level. You know, there can also be people that come in and say, you know, I work [00:37:50] on reception and I really need to get some help. And that’s amazing too. Like, my door’s open [00:37:55] to everybody as long as you want to.

Payman Langroudi: Do the work of mentoring.

Jaqueline Hurst: One on one. I work with couples [00:38:00] as well. Um, but mainly one on one. And it’s all done on zoom because I’m all over the. I’m all [00:38:05] over. You know. Some days I’m here and some days I’m there and blah, blah, blah.

Payman Langroudi: But typically, what, once a week [00:38:10] or once a month?

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah, usually. Usually I like to do a set of, um, sessions [00:38:15] with people. So it can be four sessions or eight sessions. But I’m not in the business of taking [00:38:20] your money. I’m in the business of you coming in, dealing with your shit, learning [00:38:25] how to do it, and then off you go.

Rhona Eskander: So do you make it accessible? I know that’s a strange question because [00:38:30] obviously, look, you know, as people that are interested in health and mental [00:38:35] care, you know, everyone suffers from it, right? And you know, I love dentistry. I love my job. I [00:38:40] can really change the lives of people. But I also know that I’m actually not accessible to a lot of people because [00:38:45] of my fees, because of the kind of work that I provide, um, which, [00:38:50] you know, sometimes can be a little bit of a kind of mental challenge for me. And I get that, and sometimes I’m confronted with that by other people. [00:38:55] Would you say that you are accessible to the layperson?

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah. I mean, there’s definitely, [00:39:00] um, even if somebody just wants a one off session, there’s like a 45 minute session you can take with [00:39:05] me if that’s what you want to do.

Rhona Eskander: So you’ve also said, um, that [00:39:10] you our thoughts create our feelings. Right. That’s thing something that you.

Jaqueline Hurst: That’s.

Rhona Eskander: Something [00:39:15] that’s something that you’ve mentioned a few times. But sometimes emotions hit before we even [00:39:20] know what we’re thinking, which is what I said to you. The shower situation. Right. She said something. It [00:39:25] hit me. We’ll have a private session on this. It hit me to the core that at that moment I was like this. I couldn’t even [00:39:30] rationalise it. It just. It was almost like it felt like this, right? I’m not going into it. No, no. How [00:39:35] do we catch them in time?

Jaqueline Hurst: Okay. So I like that, I [00:39:40] like it, I like the question. I’ll tell you why. When you’re feeling that feeling, it’s like a little alarm [00:39:45] clock is how you need to think about it. Like a little alarm going off is, oh, I’m feeling this feeling [00:39:50] okay. Now, most people just sit in that space and go, oh my God, I’m anxious, I’m anxious, I’m anxious. Right? But [00:39:55] no, to do your work, you have to say, right, I’m feeling anxious. Yes. What [00:40:00] am I thinking that’s making me feel that way. What’s going on in my head [00:40:05] that’s making me feel that way? When you can unpack that, right. I’m [00:40:10] thinking she said that because she doesn’t like me, for example. We then want [00:40:15] to say, well, first of all, is that true? Is that a fact? Do we know that to be a fact? Because we don’t know what other [00:40:20] people are thinking or what their what their you know, that’s all our assumptions and all our opinions and all our [00:40:25] thoughts. So you unpack the thinking around that, and then you work each thought to [00:40:30] in turn change how you feel. And that’s your process, right? Which [00:40:35] takes work to learn how to do. But ultimately that’s what we do.

Rhona Eskander: Can you give an example? Okay, I’m going to just [00:40:40] make up something. Um, okay. So say a girl says to her girlfriends, oh, um, [00:40:45] I think she looked really fat about someone in her group. I don’t know why she wears jeans like that. [00:40:50] Yeah, it really doesn’t suit her. She’s got really big hips and a really big bum. Let’s just say that happens. [00:40:55] And then the friend gets triggered because she’s thinking, well, I’m not actually much different in size [00:41:00] to this girl, so she must think that about me, right? So unpack that. So she’s triggered. [00:41:05] She’s really upset because you were saying.

Payman Langroudi: What should she do?

Rhona Eskander: What should she do in that moment? Okay, so there’s a dialogue.

Jaqueline Hurst: First [00:41:10] of all, I would say stop making it about you. Yeah, whoever you are. Right. Number one, we take [00:41:15] everything about us, right? Like, oh, my God, they’re going to think this. And then. Right. We’re not that interesting [00:41:20] to other people. Yeah. We’re just not. Yeah. So the first thing I would say is it’s not about you, right? [00:41:25] Stop making it about you. It’s about the person that said that thing. Fine. Then I would say [00:41:30] write down all your thoughts about that. Right. She must think that I’m fat. Or she must think [00:41:35] that I look awful every time I go out. Or she must think dah dah dah dah dah. Right. And [00:41:40] then I would challenge every single one of those thoughts. I would literally go [00:41:45] thought by thought, right? So she must think I look awful too, right? So I would say [00:41:50] to you, really? Like, how do you know that? And you’re going to come up with a 15 million thoughts. And I’m [00:41:55] going to say, but how do you know? And the answer to that is you’re never going to know.

Rhona Eskander: Of course.

Jaqueline Hurst: Right. So when you start [00:42:00] to unpack this, you start to literally break it down. And that’s how you then change [00:42:05] how you feel.

Payman Langroudi: It sounds a bit logical though. And this, these these reactions that she’s having [00:42:10] sound a bit illogical.

Jaqueline Hurst: Her reactions are let’s change the word illogical [00:42:15] to unconscious. So her reactions are from an unconscious space.

Rhona Eskander: I would describe it as [00:42:20] fight or flight. When I personally get in that zone, I would say that I cannot rationalise it in that moment.

Jaqueline Hurst: In that moment. [00:42:25] And so what you have to do is do the work so that you become aware of when you’re [00:42:30] thinking it’s a process, right? First, you have to become aware. That can take a week or two. Then you [00:42:35] have to say, oh, this is the thought I’m thinking, right? How can I think about this differently? Which could take a week or two. And [00:42:40] then the third time in like week three or week four, when people say those things, it doesn’t [00:42:45] it doesn’t hit like that anymore.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, the space between stimulus and response. [00:42:50] Yeah, you must you have explored that.

Jaqueline Hurst: But it’s what you.

Payman Langroudi: Do with that idea [00:42:55] that, yeah, the stimulus and response don’t necessarily have to be the same thing.

Jaqueline Hurst: And they will [00:43:00] be immediate when you haven’t. When you have an unmanaged mind and they will be way different [00:43:05] once you’ve managed. I always say it’s like a puppy dog, your mind is like a puppy, and it comes like when it’s [00:43:10] unmanaged, which most people’s are okay, it’s not our fault we aren’t taught this stuff at school. I wish we were [00:43:15] right, but ultimately it’s a puppy dog. I want to go here. I want to sniff it. I want to go there. I want to go here. I want to go there, right? [00:43:20] Puppies are like lala crazy. When you manage your mind, you’re teaching the dog. [00:43:25] Sit, stay. Come. It learns [00:43:30] and it knows what to do. And that’s what we’re doing with our brains. And your brain is so [00:43:35] fucking powerful. It is literally the driver of your whole machine.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:43:40] mean, look, I’m so I really, really believe and like one observation that [00:43:45] I’ll make is that with you, everything that you have achieved is also because of the power of your mind [00:43:50] and because you really believed and wanted those things. Yesterday I was on a podcast [00:43:55] and they were asking me like, you were one of the first dentists to be on social media. How did you [00:44:00] get there? And I was like, because I really believed in social media as this tool. No [00:44:05] one else was doing it in dentistry because no one believed dentists would be interesting on social media. [00:44:10] I wholeheartedly believed it. Therefore, that belief led me to where I am [00:44:15] today. And even now, when things don’t go my way of certain things, I do take a lot of accountability. [00:44:20] Sometimes a bit too much because I really blame myself. It’s your fault you didn’t think about it hard enough, you know? I’m like, [00:44:25] you could have manifested and controlled every aspect. It’s really hard in relationships because that’s the one part that I realised. [00:44:30]

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah, relationships.

Rhona Eskander: Can’t control the other person. You can’t. You can’t control the.

Jaqueline Hurst: Other person, you know? Yes. That [00:44:35] is exactly my brain in it. But I don’t want to give off the impression here or your listeners to think like, you [00:44:40] know, it’s all you know, I was always that way. I wasn’t, I was an addict [00:44:45] with nothing at lying on the floor, you know? Fucked.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: But [00:44:50] I’m not that person today because of the power of my mind. Because I know how to use it. Because I know how to feed it. [00:44:55] Because I know how to look after it, because I know how to think properly. So that should be empowering [00:45:00] for people to say, well, if she can go from there to there just by using the power of her brain, [00:45:05] I can do these things too. Like, I’m not special and different. Yeah. I’m not.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:45:10] are you struggling with?

Jaqueline Hurst: How long have you got? No, I’m just kidding. What do I struggle with? [00:45:15] Um, I what do I struggle with? That’s a really good question.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:45:20] this week.

Jaqueline Hurst: What did I struggle with this week?

Rhona Eskander: Um, you said to me, being in London.

Jaqueline Hurst: My mum, [00:45:25] my mum had a small operation this week, and I often feel overly responsible. [00:45:30] You know, my dad passed away last year, and I’m learning the balance of, [00:45:35] like, how to look after her. And also, um, not, you [00:45:40] know, I can’t mummy her. She’s an adult. She’s 75, but my parents had a marriage where they were together [00:45:45] for like 52 years, and my dad did everything for my mum. And my mum is 75. And, you [00:45:50] know, I said to her the other day, I was like, just print that email, mum, just print it. And she said to me, which really hurt my heart. How [00:45:55] do I do that? And I suddenly thought, okay, you know, so that balance is a really [00:46:00] fine balance. And I would say, and I don’t want to use the word struggle because I don’t think that’s a struggle. But that’s the thing that’s [00:46:05] on my mind. And struggling is not a comfortable place for anybody to be in. And [00:46:10] again, when we get our minds right, we don’t struggle. It doesn’t mean I’m at the I’m not [00:46:15] like, this person is like everything’s, you know, sorted out because life throws at us, [00:46:20] especially me. All day long. There’s shit coming my way, right? All day long. There’s shit coming [00:46:25] my way. Especially me. I’m joking, but you know what I mean. Like we’ve all got shit. It’s how we handle [00:46:30] it in our heads. And I’m really in tune with myself. So if something doesn’t sit properly, [00:46:35] I’ll talk to my friends about it that are also emotionally intelligent. I have great support [00:46:40] around me. I will take it to my coach, you know, and have a conversation with him about, [00:46:45] like, I’m a real believer of like, this is a game that we’re playing this game of life [00:46:50] and we’re always learning, you know? In fact, the more I learn, the less I know. Like for sure. [00:46:55]

Rhona Eskander: What I really loved at the beginning of the conversation as well is this like kind of notion [00:47:00] of divine timing that you were saying to kind of believe that things are [00:47:05] happening for you, not against you? I think that that’s quite beautiful. And that’s definitely been a [00:47:10] mind mindset shift for me and what I’ve been like. Um, [00:47:15] there are so many things that I’ve tried to control, but when they’ve, I’ve actually lost them or it’s gone [00:47:20] wrong, I’m like, oh my God, that was actually so good that happened. You know, like, I’m really glad that’s no longer in my [00:47:25] life. Those people or this, this company or this patient or whatever it is. And [00:47:30] I’m like, I tried to really control the whole outcome of that situation because I was so avoidant of [00:47:35] the pain. And then when it happened, it was awful. When it happened, I was I mean, I’m really like I really [00:47:40] grieve situations. And then like a year on, I’m like, however, I’m not bitter about it at all. I’m like, [00:47:45] it happened for a reason. And I’m kind of glad it’s no longer in my life, you know? And that’s that.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s funny, isn’t it? Because the [00:47:50] more you control, the less control you’ve got. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But do you believe. Because I think the one thing that I [00:47:55] struggle with because I’m a massive it’s almost like a contradiction because I’m a massive believer in like your mind [00:48:00] and manifesting to a degree, not the toxic positivity type of manifesting, but like, like you said, like you somewhere [00:48:05] in your head were like, I’m going to provide something to people to help people like how [00:48:10] you ended up as a coach, etc. so it’s really important that your little actions every day allow things to happen, but [00:48:15] in a way that’s control. If you if that makes sense, because you’ve put out [00:48:20] your intention of what you want. And I think there’s almost like this fine balance of not trying [00:48:25] to grip onto it too tightly, but like knowing what you want, and also also at the same time letting [00:48:30] things be and happen the way they’re meant to happen. Does that make sense?

Jaqueline Hurst: It does. I had this great teacher and she she said [00:48:35] something which I hope will help you. I know it definitely helped me. And she said, like with things like that, what you have to do is [00:48:40] imagine that you’re like buying that thing on Amazon, right? Once you’ve bought it and paid for [00:48:45] it, it’s on its way and then you release it. Yeah. And I love that because it’s like [00:48:50] you have to, you know, you’ve got to put the work in and then you’ve got to release [00:48:55] it, right. Like, you can’t be spending your life trying to control the minutiae of everything and everyone [00:49:00] around you. Like, it’s just, you know it. Control is an illusion. It’s such an illusion. [00:49:05]

Rhona Eskander: So a question that I’ve got to ask you as well, because I find this topic really interesting, is also about relationships. [00:49:10] Do you believe that people can create or [00:49:15] draw in the type of relationships that they want and keep [00:49:20] them? Or do you think it’s much more complex because you’ve got two people, two brains, [00:49:25] etc., etc.? I mean, what’s your thoughts on that?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think relationships are one of the [00:49:30] is not one of is the hardest thing that people struggle with. Um, on [00:49:35] many levels, because life is really all about relationships, isn’t it? And I will urge and urge [00:49:40] people to do their work on themselves right now. If you’re in a healthy, loving [00:49:45] relationship, you can do the work on yourself as you’re going through those relationships. You know.

Rhona Eskander: That’s [00:49:50] literally my poor husband has had to deal with me doing.

Jaqueline Hurst: That for the.

Rhona Eskander: Past five years.

Jaqueline Hurst: That’s a healthy relationship, right? As you’re [00:49:55] growing and changing, you know, he’s still there and you’re having a great relationship, right? But I [00:50:00] you know, I’m not a believer of like, you’ve got to love yourself before you step into a relationship. But I do think you have to learn [00:50:05] about your patterns before you, you know, before you dive in. And [00:50:10] again, it depends on sort of the levels of traumas and things you’ve had. Childhood plays a massive [00:50:15] role of, you know, the partners that we choose because ultimately I’m a believer that [00:50:20] we choose, you know, our partners is is either our mother or our father. And it’s, [00:50:25] you know, we’re trying to get the thing that we lacked from that parent through that, through the person that we [00:50:30] choose. Um, and so we have to look at all of that stuff in quite deep level. You know, some [00:50:35] of us do before you can have something super, super healthy, you know, you’ve got to know about your boundaries, your [00:50:40] value, your worth, you know, things like that. And you’ve also got to be someone I’m a believer of, like, [00:50:45] you know, you have to learn to really love your life and know that you’re whole anyway, and [00:50:50] that having a partner is an added bonus. But it isn’t everything. You know, a lot of [00:50:55] people get caught up in, you know, I’m single and if I had a partner then I’d be happy. And [00:51:00] that’s a really dangerous way to live your life. No one’s coming to save you. Yeah. No one’s [00:51:05] coming to save you.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s very.

Payman Langroudi: And I grass is always greener as well.

Jaqueline Hurst: Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: Um, but also, I always [00:51:10] say that, like, women have also been brought up with this toxic narrative about being saved, [00:51:15] you know, Disney, sex and the city. And I find it really dangerous. Um, [00:51:20] I even said yesterday, you know, like, the biggest hoax of my generation [00:51:25] was like, big coming to rescue Carrie in Sex and the city.

Jaqueline Hurst: Because I remember [00:51:30] those days. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but.

Jaqueline Hurst: Big doesn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Change. First of all, he was married twice before he gave [00:51:35] you the bare minimum. And then you’re saying he’s coming to Paris to declare his undying love. Oh, and then, [00:51:40] by the way, he also stands her up on the altar. Do you know what I mean? And it’s like, no, but we still want the [00:51:45] big. Do you know what I mean? So I feel like there’s also this toxic narrative around constantly pining [00:51:50] over someone that gives you the bare minimum because they may change, you know?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think I think it’s a very [00:51:55] strange time out there with dating and things like that. Today, I think that men and women are totally [00:52:00] at. They are literally like this. You know, I don’t know if anyone can see that on a podcast, but like, we’re just [00:52:05] on completely different levels today. And I think that, you know, women decided to, you know, burn [00:52:10] their bras. And we wanted equality. And we thought, why not? I want to be in the boardroom, too. And we’ve got to [00:52:15] that point now, which is amazing, you know. Thank you to the suffragettes. Thank you to all these women before us. That got [00:52:20] us to a point where we’ve got a voice and and I feel that, you know, men are a [00:52:25] bit stuck now of like, well, now what? What do we do? And men open doors for women and women say, no, thank [00:52:30] you, I can do that myself. So they’re a bit confused. And yet women really want a man to be gentle and [00:52:35] loving and kind and all the rest of it. And it’s all like everything’s everywhere, you know? And it’s like how [00:52:40] something has to change. Because we’re in a space right now where I’m hearing more and more and more of people just [00:52:45] saying I’m just single and I’m staying that way. Like, I just can’t do it.

Rhona Eskander: I had three women in my surgery over the last [00:52:50] three months that have chosen to have IVF donor babies on their own.

Payman Langroudi: No doubt at all.

Rhona Eskander: No. [00:52:55] Don’t even know donors. And I was like, that’s interesting. Or lucrative jobs 40, [00:53:00] 41 years old were like, he never came along. So I’m doing on my own.

Jaqueline Hurst: I think women have, [00:53:05] you know, accidentally overtaken a lot of men today. And men have [00:53:10] to learn about emotional intelligence, and yet no one’s teaching them. So we’re [00:53:15] really, really stuck at the moment out there. It’s it’s an interesting space. [00:53:20]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, it really is.

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: You’ve worked with so many clients, as you’ve said. And what’s the most common thought [00:53:25] pattern that holds people back?

Jaqueline Hurst: I’m not good enough, really.

Payman Langroudi: Is that men [00:53:30] as well?

Jaqueline Hurst: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, is there a difference between men and women or age groups or different patterns?

Jaqueline Hurst: What [00:53:35] I love about working with men is men are way more logical, right? They’re very bum, bum, bum like. It’s [00:53:40] really clear when you work with a guy and women are a lot more like, you know, spaghetti. Like, then we [00:53:45] go this way and then we go that way, you know? So men are super, super logical, but often, you know, they’re very action [00:53:50] orientated. And so I’m constantly saying to my men clients like, it’s not about [00:53:55] the action, it’s about the thinking, you know. But they are a lot more yeah, logical [00:54:00] action orientated. But um, that’s quite interesting. And women, you know, we’re a bit more complex, right? [00:54:05] We’re a bit more. Yeah. Okay. No more laughing. No, I’m just kidding. But, yeah, we’re a bit more [00:54:10] complex.

Rhona Eskander: You’ve also talked a lot about, like, self-awareness being a superpower. So [00:54:15] thank you for saying that. Self-aware because I work because I was saying but what [00:54:20] is what’s the kind of questions that people should be asking about that? Because you know what the self-awareness piece for me was like? I [00:54:25] got surrounded by so many people. I mean, I was in this echo chamber. Still am still trying to escape the echo chamber. If I’m honest [00:54:30] of a certain type of person in my life. And what I recognised, [00:54:35] there was such little self-awareness. And I think particularly for those people that like being like in the limelight [00:54:40] or like being the centre of attention. Semi narcissists, everything [00:54:45] like that. They really fail to ask questions and like have accountability [00:54:50] and that really bothers me. You know, it really bothers me. Like even as I was telling you about the addict that I [00:54:55] was friends with, you know, it was always everyone else’s fault. You know, there was always I don’t [00:55:00] mind people being imperfect. I don’t mind people fucking up because we’re all human. What it does, mind me, [00:55:05] is the self-awareness and lack of accountability and the blame on everyone else when things go wrong. So what [00:55:10] kind of daily question do you think people should be asking themselves?

Jaqueline Hurst: Well, if you’re dealing with a narcissist, [00:55:15] they’re not going to be asking themselves questions. Let’s just leave it at that. Right. Because that isn’t going to happen. You’re asking, [00:55:20] you know, an apple to be an apple and an orange to be an orange. It’s just not going to happen. So those people [00:55:25] won’t be asking themselves daily questions. But by the way, if you’re saying, oh my God, am I a narcissist, I want you to [00:55:30] know you’re not because you’re asking yourself the question, okay, so so your question [00:55:35] you’re asking me, I’m just double checking here is like, what questions should we ask ourselves to be self-aware people?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:55:40] exactly.

Jaqueline Hurst: To people, ultimately is just. What am I thinking? That is like the best question [00:55:45] you can ask yourself ever. What am I thinking? And is this thought helping me go in the direction of [00:55:50] where I want to go? Or is this thought taking me into a completely different direction? What am I thinking? Right? [00:55:55] That’s a really important.

Payman Langroudi: To separate the different personas like the, you know, like that chimp paradox, [00:56:00] kind of that, you know, that I feel like there’s three of me.

Jaqueline Hurst: Right? [00:56:05]

Rhona Eskander: Parts. He’s talking about parts essentially. You know.

Jaqueline Hurst: There will be loads of different parts of you. [00:56:10] Yeah. And we’re all are working.

Payman Langroudi: So when you say, what am I thinking? Which one? Which one are me? You know, like. [00:56:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: Still ask yourself the question because you’ll get some really great answers. You know, it’s a really, really [00:56:20] powerful question. What am I thinking? And it also gets you into the self-awareness section. And by [00:56:25] the way, we can’t just stop at self-awareness. Then we’ve actually got to do our work to change.

Payman Langroudi: Something about.

Jaqueline Hurst: It. Yeah, [00:56:30] you can’t just sit there and be like, yay, you know?

Rhona Eskander: So with dentistry, right. Lots [00:56:35] of high achievers. Okay. So we’ve got my partner describes it as in [00:56:40] finance, dentistry, medicine. Like all these kind of corporate careers, they rely on insecure [00:56:45] overachievers. And I was like, that is such a good way to describe so many dentists because they [00:56:50] rely on us, you know, being insecure and wanting to overachieve. And that’s what kind of keeps [00:56:55] us really driven and really dedicated to the job, if that makes sense. Okay. So anyways, there are [00:57:00] lots of high achievers in dentistry, and there’s this constant drive to do more and be better. But how do we balance [00:57:05] ambition with self-acceptance?

Jaqueline Hurst: Our success doesn’t make you happy. And you know, [00:57:10] there’s this lovely Buddhist saying, which I know I’m going to get wrong, but it’s basically about like, you know, you’ve got to [00:57:15] you’ve got to buy the Ferrari to find your enlightenment, right? Like, you’ve got to go there [00:57:20] to understand that doesn’t do it for you. So I would just say to you that you have to learn how [00:57:25] to value yourself on who you are, not what you do. It takes work, but it’s really, really important. [00:57:30] Otherwise, you’re going to be constantly seeking it from outside of yourself. And you, you know, you can [00:57:35] get to the top rung of the ladder, but it just doesn’t mean you’re happy. So learning how to do that is really, [00:57:40] really important.

Rhona Eskander: And I think it’s really sad because as you said, like the constant gratification on social [00:57:45] media shows people otherwise. And I’ve even seen it with some of my friends that have huge profiles [00:57:50] on social media. They chase one thing after the other to get more of the [00:57:55] engagement, more of the love, and they don’t even know they’re consciously doing it. But I know that they do. I was [00:58:00] listening. Do you ever listen to Matthew Hussey?

Jaqueline Hurst: Sometimes.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I really like his work. And [00:58:05] he was talking today on a podcast because I listened to a lot of his stuff as well, about [00:58:10] how some people would explain the type of person they’re attracted to. But when [00:58:15] you break it down, type is just based on your ego and insecurity. And he was like, I know it’s a [00:58:20] little bit controversial, but someone might say, but really, what they’re saying their type is, is someone that makes [00:58:25] them feel validated on the outside or makes them feel. So for example, you’re like, if they’re [00:58:30] seen with a certain person and someone goes lucky her, or if you’re seen [00:58:35] with a certain person of a certain status or stature. You know, I mean, people, you know, [00:58:40] you might feel like, oh, I’m good enough. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s this massive validation with who we think [00:58:45] we should be with, rather than actually breaking down who the person is and whether they [00:58:50] are good for us. And I thought that, you know what? That’s a really interesting point. And the danger is with social media in every [00:58:55] aspect of their life. For example, if you’ve had an eating disorder and [00:59:00] your weight naturally fluctuates, if you are looking skinnier and have a belief that I am better [00:59:05] when I’m skinnier, and then people online are saying, you look amazing when you’re at your skinniest, [00:59:10] it’s just going to perpetuate that belief. Does that make sense? So sometimes it’s really hard to [00:59:15] know who you are and what makes you happy, because you’re kind of seeking that external validation [00:59:20] all the time, and you believe that it makes you happy.

Jaqueline Hurst: You’ve got to do your work because you, you know, and the further [00:59:25] down that path you go of doing your own work, the less any of that stuff happens. Yeah. And [00:59:30] you know what you are, and you know who you are, and you know that you’re good enough and you know. [00:59:35] And it’s all. It’s all okay.

Rhona Eskander: So would you say you’re invincible?

Jaqueline Hurst: Invincible? [00:59:40] I don’t think I’m invincible. No. I mean, what is invincible? What are.

Payman Langroudi: You chasing? What are you chasing? I mean, [00:59:45] it’s an interesting question, right? That anything that happens in your life that [00:59:50] you’ve got to measure it against. Does this bring me more like [00:59:55] if peace is for me. What?

Jaqueline Hurst: You’re all about that, right? I just wanted to have a mind that was [01:00:00] quiet. Yeah, like that was all I ever wanted because I had, like, a really loud mind and [01:00:05] a destructive mind and a confused mind and a hurting mind. And so for [01:00:10] me, it was always about, how can I be somebody who is completely at peace? [01:00:15] And, you know, I feel I feel blessed today that [01:00:20] I could tell you that I have a I have a life where I lead, which [01:00:25] is deeply peaceful inside. And I think that has been, you know, [01:00:30] worth it on every level.

Payman Langroudi: But do you have to unpack it for your clients? Sometimes because [01:00:35] I thought that I’m chasing, uh, happiness.

Rhona Eskander: You did your whole life. [01:00:40]

Payman Langroudi: I thought I’m chasing happiness. Yeah. Then. But actually, I was confusing. Well, what is that, exactly? [01:00:45] I was confusing happiness with pleasure. Right? Yeah. Joy. The kind of very different [01:00:50] those things.

Rhona Eskander: Dopamine hits.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Now I’m thinking contentment, [01:00:55] which is a totally different thing to happiness and joy and pleasure.

Jaqueline Hurst: Also growing.

Payman Langroudi: Up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jaqueline Hurst: I think age [01:01:00] is a big part of that, you know?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. No, but unpacking those things, you know, like, because you think you’re chasing [01:01:05] happiness, but actually you’re chasing pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like. So you think it’s a good [01:01:10] thing to do? It’s a worthy cause.

Jaqueline Hurst: It’s what makes you feel good inside, right? Like, you know, [01:01:15] ultimately, if you’re drinking loads, you aren’t feeling good. You think you are, but you know that you’re not.

Rhona Eskander: But [01:01:20] I think people mistake dopamine for happiness. And they don’t realise that it’s a high. And that’s the thing. [01:01:25] We’re constantly chasing highs because things are so accessible to us. We’re constantly chasing the [01:01:30] partner. That’s better. The job, the fame, the looks, whatever, whatever. And and [01:01:35] the thing is, is that we’ve also like we’ve come the compare and despair space is becoming more and [01:01:40] more vast. Because let’s face it, of course there’s going to be someone that’s better looking, more successful. [01:01:45] This, this, like any of us, like, you know, if we compare, you know, and I think that is dangerous [01:01:50] because people don’t get celebrated, like you said, enough for their authenticity and vulnerability. [01:01:55] And I just and it’s sad because sometimes I really see us taking steps [01:02:00] back. You know, when I see comments on Facebook and Instagram, not from me, but like on other [01:02:05] people’s posts, I’m like, things haven’t changed or like not enough people are doing the work, [01:02:10] you know?

Jaqueline Hurst: Well, I think that’s I think that’s it. I think not enough people are doing the work. And I think that’s really, really important, [01:02:15] you know, because.

Payman Langroudi: More are doing the work now than ever before. Right. Are they. Yeah. Yeah for sure. I mean. [01:02:20]

Rhona Eskander: We’re in a microcosm. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I used to be a dirty thing to even see a shrink or see a [01:02:25] therapist.

Rhona Eskander: Saying the mental.

Jaqueline Hurst: Health, the mental health. I mean, look, when I started, I remember saying to people, I’m a life [01:02:30] coach. And my dad at the time was like, what? Who’s going to knock on your door? What do you want? Right. He [01:02:35] was so baffled by it. And I remember writing to all the public schools, like all of them, saying, hi, I’m a life coach. [01:02:40] I’d like to come and give a talk to the boys so that I can talk to them about their emotions and how what they’re thinking. [01:02:45] And every one of these public schools wrote back to me and said, we’ve got a nurse on site. [01:02:50]

Rhona Eskander: Oh my God, it’s hilarious.

Jaqueline Hurst: And that look how far we’ve come.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So we’ve come a long way.

Jaqueline Hurst: But have we come [01:02:55] too far the other way? Now is the question is everything about mental health and oh my [01:03:00] God, I can’t get out of bed because this podcast is anxiety.

Rhona Eskander: Like you said, I think [01:03:05] you said like you quite rightly said, like victim mentality is the thing that really irks you. And I think [01:03:10] that that is it irks me too, because I’m like, you have rescued me.

Jaqueline Hurst: I mean, I’m not. Listen, [01:03:15] I know I’m very tough, but I do believe in feeling your feelings, right? Like, I’m a real believer [01:03:20] of, like, you know, you break up with your boyfriend’s fucking sit down and eat a tub of ice cream and cry for three [01:03:25] weeks, like you’ve got to have the feelings. And when you’re ready, then you make the change. [01:03:30] Yeah, yeah. So that’s really important, you know. But the victim mentality thing. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Because blaming everyone [01:03:35] else. Blaming your life.

Jaqueline Hurst: And not owning your part in these things. It’s really important.

Payman Langroudi: You know what though? You know, like [01:03:40] you said, when you see a family of four all on their phones and you [01:03:45] said about comparing yourself and obviously social media, you end up comparing more. [01:03:50] Yeah. It’s true. But do you do you both recognise here that there was always those [01:03:55] things? I mean, whether or not they were on the phone, maybe that same family [01:04:00] of four would be sitting.

Jaqueline Hurst: Non-stop.

Payman Langroudi: Talking to each other?

Jaqueline Hurst: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, absolutely. Comparison [01:04:05] wise? Yeah. It’s not every morning, every time you flick your phone, but maybe back then you [01:04:10] used to turn up at a wedding and your clothes weren’t the same as. You know.

Rhona Eskander: What.

Payman Langroudi: I mean? Comparison has always [01:04:15] existed.

Rhona Eskander: Of course, of course, of course. But I think that there’s sometimes, like, a [01:04:20] break from it. You know, like, for example, even if you want to, to dissociate from somebody [01:04:25] toxic in your life, like back in the day, if I fell out with someone in my teenage hood or my 20s, I’m like, [01:04:30] cool. They’re not in my life and I don’t have access to anything they’re doing or what they’re doing, and that’s a decision. Now [01:04:35] this happens. Like you might be tempted, like every now and then just to be like, what are they up to? Like, [01:04:40] you break up with someone. Are they dating someone new? You know, I mean, like, you’ve just got all of this. That just [01:04:45] doesn’t help that whole self-preservation thing. And that’s just my view, because you’ve got the temptations [01:04:50] there. And being human. Sure, I don’t put myself to constantly looking, but every now and then I might [01:04:55] slip and be like, what’s this person doing and stuff? And I think the accessibility to these different things [01:05:00] makes it more difficult. I think.

Payman Langroudi: Like the narcissist life coach, that guy. [01:05:05]

Rhona Eskander: No, I actually laughed. I actually laugh, I looked at his LinkedIn the [01:05:10] other day and I was like, anyone that pays this chump, I feel sorry for him, you know? Um.

Jaqueline Hurst: It happens. [01:05:15]

Rhona Eskander: So I want to ask you something because I think this is really important. If you could go back and have a conversation [01:05:20] with your younger self at her lowest point, what would you tell her?

Jaqueline Hurst: I would say to her, it’s [01:05:25] going to get better than you could ever imagine, you know? And I do [01:05:30] really believe that the extremes that I went through in my life, I mean, extremes, was [01:05:35] for a reason, you know. And that all of that. And I realised that I was like as I got [01:05:40] into coaching and started my business, I was like, now I get it. Like, now I get why [01:05:45] that path was so tough. And, you know, I’m grateful for it.

Rhona Eskander: Do you really believe [01:05:50] that paths are written out for us?

Jaqueline Hurst: I have a feeling that, you know, we [01:05:55] probably choose what we want before we get here. We probably say, this [01:06:00] is what I want to learn. Having this human experience. Um. It’s possible. [01:06:05]

Rhona Eskander: Do you believe it?

Payman Langroudi: No.

Rhona Eskander: What do you believe?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve come [01:06:10] round to the notion of life. Will keep teaching you the lessons until you learn them. You know that [01:06:15] idea? But any any sort of supernatural kind of [01:06:20] angle on it just puts me off straight away. You know, like.

Jaqueline Hurst: Some people just don’t.

Payman Langroudi: But you do. You [01:06:25] know you do keep on making the same mistakes again and again and again until you learn not to make those mistakes [01:06:30] anymore. Life has a way of life has a way of grinding you into that situation. [01:06:35]

Jaqueline Hurst: People never learn. They just keep doing it.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s why I think the thing that terrifies me the most in the entire [01:06:40] world is the deathbed regrets. You know, the one that was written.

Jaqueline Hurst: Never wants [01:06:45] to have a deathbed regret.

Rhona Eskander: But the thing is, you see, you know the nurse that wrote the book. So she wrote a book [01:06:50] and she wrote like the most common regrets. And for me, it’s really reflective of the 9 to 5 [01:06:55] person that lived the cookie cutter life that thought would make them happy. And when you see [01:07:00] the regrets, it’s basically like not taking enough risks, not spending enough time with your family [01:07:05] and friends. Like all this.

Payman Langroudi: Stuff was living for other people, living.

Rhona Eskander: For other [01:07:10] people’s.

Payman Langroudi: Expectations. Expectations?

Jaqueline Hurst: What a terrible way to live your life. I [01:07:15] mean.

Payman Langroudi: The most common regret on the deathbed.

Rhona Eskander: Do you find a lot of your clients experience that?

Jaqueline Hurst: I think they [01:07:20] care what other people think. Yeah, definitely. It’s a big thing about what other people think about [01:07:25] them, and they don’t want to disappoint people. Women, especially big people, pleasing all of the stuff. You’ve got to [01:07:30] unpack it, right? You don’t have to live like that. That’s so, so important. Yeah, it’s it’s [01:07:35] common.

Rhona Eskander: So do you say now that you live by your own rules?

Jaqueline Hurst: You know, my friends would laugh [01:07:40] at you saying that because, like, I am the personification. If that’s the right word of that, [01:07:45] like I do, I, you know, I’m obviously I’m very empathetic and I’m kind, [01:07:50] but I also live a life that I’m comfortable with, and you all can do what you want with that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [01:07:55] What does success actually mean to you now?

Jaqueline Hurst: Peace. [01:08:00] I think it’s all about being peace within myself. And that to me is the biggest, you [01:08:05] know, and most successful thing ever. I think one, I can put my head down at night and, [01:08:10] you know, have total peace. I feel I feel really grateful for that. [01:08:15] Yeah, I’ve worked hard for it.

Rhona Eskander: And you deserve it because you’re amazing. And [01:08:20] I want to ask you lastly as well. What is the future? [01:08:25] What does the future hold? What can we we be excited about in Jacqueline’s world?

Jaqueline Hurst: Do you know what I just [01:08:30] I have to tell you, when my dad passed away last year in August, it was a life changing [01:08:35] event for me. And if I, you know, I always have been a life grabber and a life [01:08:40] lover. But watching somebody you love, especially a parent, pass like that, it gives [01:08:45] you a whole new perspective on what you want to do with your life. You know, for me, [01:08:50] there’s lots of things that I think about doing. You know, the second book for sure, we [01:08:55] talked about that just as I sat down. I think that’s, you know, I’ve got to get around to doing that. That’s really important. And [01:09:00] to have, you know, to spend, which is what I do, real quality time, the people I love, that makes [01:09:05] me happy. I took my mom for a walk yesterday after this operation. She’s had, and her eyes are quite blurry and [01:09:10] so she had to like, hold my arm and blah blah blah. And we stopped and we looked at these beautiful flowers [01:09:15] and one of the garden squares, and I was laughing and I said, so this is what they mean when they say, stop and smell the roses. [01:09:20] So to me that stuff’s really important, which is quality time and being present with the people that I [01:09:25] love.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I think there’s something so profound. I’m so close to my parents, especially my dad. There’s [01:09:30] something so profound about watching your parents age. You know, there’s this sense of, like, vulnerability. [01:09:35] And sometimes my dad’s almost 80, and it is it’s so precious to spend these [01:09:40] moments. It really, really is. Yeah. So important.

Jaqueline Hurst: So important because you never, ever want to say, I [01:09:45] wish I had. I was really lucky. I got one month with my dad. I was with him at the hospital 24 [01:09:50] over seven. I didn’t leave his side and I got to tell him everything I wanted to say, and I know that he got to [01:09:55] do the same for me. And that is one of the greatest gifts of this, you know, awful [01:10:00] experience that we’re all going to go through. It was one of the greatest gifts that I got to have that opportunity [01:10:05] to have, you know, spent that time with him. So, yeah, like spend time with [01:10:10] people you love. Be present. It’s a really powerful thing.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I love that so much. And if people want to find you, Jacqueline, [01:10:15] can you just tell us your handles?

Jaqueline Hurst: Okay. So my website’s Jacqueline Hurst. Com My Instagram is [01:10:20] Jacqueline underscore Hurst underscore. My school is the lifeclass.com [01:10:25] and the book is called how to Do You, which is available on Amazon and iTunes and [01:10:30] all of those things.

Payman Langroudi: Quickly, before we wrap up the question of how to do you specifically [01:10:35] you what are some tips to like, say, how do I unpack me, the [01:10:40] real me, rather than the sort of, uh, layers of things that we build on top?

Jaqueline Hurst: So [01:10:45] I think meditation is a really powerful tool to sit down and get to know yourself a little bit better and learn how to [01:10:50] quieten your mind. Um, being really conscious and aware of what you’re thinking, really important. [01:10:55] And how are you living your life? Ask yourself that question like, am I living a life to [01:11:00] keep other people happy? Or am I being true and authentic to myself? Living authentically, [01:11:05] living. Being true to yourself is a really beautiful way to live. And unpacking that is [01:11:10] really, really important.

Rhona Eskander: Perfect. Thank you so much, Jack.

Payman Langroudi: It’s been wonderful.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you for having me. [01:11:15]

Jaqueline Hurst: Thank you.