[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhonda Eskander: Today’s [00:00:25] guest is someone who’s moved through reinvention more than once, from a [00:00:30] singer songwriter to reality TV star to a transformational coach and speaker. Julius, [00:00:35] welcome to Mind Movers. The one of the best dental podcasts [00:00:40] in the UK. But what sets Julius apart isn’t his resume. [00:00:45] It’s the depth of reflection and truth he brings to every part of his journey, especially when [00:00:50] it comes to identity, emotional pain and healing. He’s become known for his wonderful content [00:00:55] on male vulnerability, toxic relationship patterns, and the importance of safe spaces, [00:01:00] and for helping others move from chaos to clarity in their own lives. So this conversation [00:01:05] is about the messy human stuff. Self-worth, performance. Heartbreak, [00:01:10] purpose, and the moment he stopped living for the outside world. So welcome, Julius. [00:01:15]

Julius Cowdrey: Thank you. You know, it’d be really nice if I could just wake up to that on repeat.

Rhonda Eskander: I [00:01:20] know, I know, sometimes it’s it’s weird having your, like, bio like, read back to you or like, what people say about [00:01:25] you. But, you know, I was lucky enough because Payman always says, like, how do you know this person? How do you know this person? [00:01:30] And I said I was on his mic. So for those of you haven’t seen it wasn’t like 2 million [00:01:35] views now. And it did well. Yeah, it did really well.

Julius Cowdrey: That was all you I try, I try and make a point of like [00:01:40] keeping it me to the question and then leaving you to to do well but like it’s those conversations [00:01:45] are amazing because they’re so raw. I started I started out going on the mic not for it wasn’t about gaining [00:01:50] more followers, it was about normalising conversation and just getting people to open up. And I went out on the mic into [00:01:55] Covent Garden with my friends. And you don’t mind standing behind the camera. And I stood there and [00:02:00] I asked about. Must have been 300 people. Would you answer a question? Would you answer a question? And [00:02:05] all all of the men just looked at me like I was asking for money. And [00:02:10] then, you know, 75% of women said, no, no, not for me, not for me, who are much nicer in that environment. [00:02:15] To be honest, I think I’d probably rush off and be like, ah, what is this about? And then and then [00:02:20] I got on an amazing Scottish older lady who answered a question on what [00:02:25] she wished she knew sooner. And it was a beautiful answer and it was so well received. I [00:02:30] just had to try and work out how I can sort of create my pitch better and actually get people to come on the mic, and [00:02:35] then I and then I started reaching out to people like you and, and people who have a voice are doing interesting [00:02:40] things. Um, and yeah, it’s.

Rhonda Eskander: I love it. And I want to kind of really delve into [00:02:45] sort of the human emotion that you capture so well on camera. So Payman said to me today, because [00:02:50] we usually start our format with something from the beginning, but he asked me to ask something [00:02:55] that maybe is something that we leave towards the end. What are you struggling with the most at [00:03:00] the moment?

Julius Cowdrey: You’ve got that from my my Instagram videos, haven’t you? That’s one of [00:03:05] my questions.

Rhonda Eskander: I didn’t I didn’t. No no, no.

Julius Cowdrey: Um, okay. I put [00:03:10] a lot of pressure on myself. Um, and I, I put a [00:03:15] very much a positive front, but I put a lot of pressure on myself to be successful. And [00:03:20] so I overwork, and often I fall to that side of [00:03:25] sort of saying no to no to the quote unquote fun stuff and hanging out with people. And [00:03:30] I feel like I might look forward and go, you missed out on the moment because you’re working so hard. But then I read books. [00:03:35] I read a lot of autobiographies of Steve Jobs and people like that, and they were just obsessive workers. [00:03:40] And their success is what, you know, came from it. There was a by-product of their hard work. So [00:03:45] then I sort of I think I tangled with that and um, and therefore and I think I put a lot [00:03:50] of pressure on my co-founder, co-founder and my brother as well on that. You know, we need to be working harder. We’re not doing enough. [00:03:55] So. So that’s I think that’s a bit of pressure that I put on. And therefore cortisol rises. I probably don’t [00:04:00] sleep as well. I’m you know, I’m trying to think of what I can do at 9:00 pm at night. So switching off is hard. Um, [00:04:05] for me. So that’s probably what I’m struggling with.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think that is?

Julius Cowdrey: I think I just have a really [00:04:10] high bar. And it’s interesting because I talk to clients about this a lot and taking the [00:04:15] pressure off and leaving expectation at the door and making it and living in your purpose [00:04:20] and your drive, and actually that will drive you through. But I think, yeah, I think [00:04:25] I want a lot for myself. I want to provide um, I want to, to, [00:04:30] you know, attract an amazing woman. And I think she deserves that. If I’m deserves a provider [00:04:35] and someone and even though I want to meet level with my with my partner. Of course. But but yeah, [00:04:40] it’s it’s it’s interesting. I’ve seen I’ve seen a lot of success. I’ve seen my, my dad do amazing things. So I [00:04:45] think maybe that was my picture of, of success when I was growing up. Um, but [00:04:50] yeah, I also think with social media it’s very easy and this is such an obvious topic. [00:04:55] But success is so over. Glamorised and how running a Start-Up is so over Glamorised and [00:05:00] and you look at the you look at the 25 year old who’s made 100 million from selling his Start-Up or her Start-Up, [00:05:05] and and you hear about, you know, I went to an event the other day and I’m we’re trying to raise under a million for [00:05:10] our our Pre-seed Start-Up at the moment. And I met this woman who’s raised, just raised 600 [00:05:15] million pre-seed and she’s 26. And and so [00:05:20] that makes you sort of naturally because we’re we’re human, you know, because we’re human, we naturally compare. And [00:05:25] so then I’m naturally comparing, um, to that. And so I think taking [00:05:30] for me, the, the step is taking is taking a step back and actually realising [00:05:35] that I’m on the path, I’m doing the best I can and not putting pressure on myself. Interestingly, [00:05:40] the average path of an entrepreneur setting up a business and selling is 42 years old, sets [00:05:45] it up, sells at 57, not, sets it up at 20 and sells it at 26. [00:05:50] It’s just you only hear about those stories.

Payman Langroudi: How old are you?

Julius Cowdrey: I’m 32.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. [00:05:55] So there’s actually a lot of things to unpack in what you have just said that I want to go into. First of all, I think [00:06:00] what’s important is, is what you said about the pressure you’ve put on yourself to [00:06:05] provide. And I think that that’s quite difficult for a lot of men. I mean, I don’t know if it was the same [00:06:10] also when you were Julius’s age, but I think that ultimately [00:06:15] that’s also why women struggle to find men that they want to be in relationships [00:06:20] with. And I think it’s I don’t know if it’s necessarily a helpful narrative, because I think to some degree [00:06:25] we’re all work in progress as constantly, and the thought that we should all have [00:06:30] our shit together by the time that we’re 30 and every aspect of our life, and I’m talking about career [00:06:35] health, knowing what you want. And I have seen some of my friends, I’m lucky to be exposed [00:06:40] to a lot of influencers and so forth and celebrities and whatever that they feel that they’ve achieved [00:06:45] it all by 30 and then feel, okay. Now I need to settle down and find the perfect partner. If [00:06:50] you’re trying to meet that partner that ticks every box on every [00:06:55] level, that’s a huge amount of weight and a lot of pressure that you’re putting on yourself. [00:07:00] And I wonder today as well, because I know you’re a massive advocate of male mental health, [00:07:05] that the reason why a lot of men do not want to get into relationships, maybe because [00:07:10] of avoidant tendencies as they’re often accused of, but also because on some level they feel that they can’t [00:07:15] match the level that women want. You know, to provide for an entire family [00:07:20] is a lot. It’s not just providing for yourself. Can I go on interject?

Payman Langroudi: No, [00:07:25] no. But you know, you know, there’s that famous book or article that the [00:07:30] nurse wrote from the nursing homes, the palliative care centres. Everyone was [00:07:35] going to die.

Rhonda Eskander: Regrets?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Deathbed regrets.

Payman Langroudi: Right. And and then it was [00:07:40] like the top five regrets that people had at the end of their lives. And there’s all the obvious kind of things [00:07:45] about too much time at work, losing friendships and family members. And the number [00:07:50] one one was about living for other people’s expectations or something. But the one I found [00:07:55] the most interesting about that one was it was like, I wish I’d allowed myself to be [00:08:00] more happy. It’s one of the top five regrets people [00:08:05] have on their deathbed. Yeah. And when I look back at my life, we’ve all had highs and lows and [00:08:10] all that, which I allowed myself to be more happy, man. Like contentment. Yeah. Yeah. Is [00:08:15] underrated. And somehow in tension with this. Work my ass off at 930 [00:08:20] at night to to get ahead.

Rhonda Eskander: To provide, to provide.

Payman Langroudi: But I do get it with your [00:08:25] granddad as captain of England. Right. That that that’s not normal behaviour. [00:08:30] That’s obsessive behaviour that makes you captain of England and cricket. Yeah. Maybe you saw [00:08:35] that. Maybe. Well.

Julius Cowdrey: I mean his so his grandfather. So my great great grandfather. [00:08:40] My great grandfather. So his father um called him Mick [00:08:45] Michael Colin Cowdrey because the home of cricket is Marylebone Cricket club. In [00:08:50] fact, he would make him bat with a with a railing by behind his back so [00:08:55] that he would only hit particular shots. I mean, there was an obsession from him. Um, my dad saw his [00:09:00] father for four Christmases growing up because he was playing cricket, and they were on boats [00:09:05] to Australia, not on planes back then. And and so I think my dad made a conscious decision [00:09:10] to be more present because that would never that had been a generational thing, not to be present. Um, [00:09:15] and yes, I’ve seen success. It’s it’s interesting when I, when I did the, the show, um, [00:09:20] when I did Maiden Chelsea, people always go, oh, it’s, you know, it’s quite a cool thing you’re [00:09:25] doing. And I never, I never really thought highly of it. And I think maybe it’s because I’ve seen crazy success. [00:09:30] My grandpa would he he would dine with the Queen once a month. I mean, he was friends with Nelson Mandela. He. The reason he [00:09:35] became a lord was because he helped bring South Africa back into sport from apartheid. He died [00:09:40] when I was 2000, I in 2000. I wish I could have known him. I was seven years old. Um, so I think [00:09:45] maybe it’s a reflection of what I’ve seen for sure. I mean, you can look on the other side. I’ve seen such healthy love [00:09:50] from my mom. And so I joked to my mom, I’d be like, you’ve definitely fucked me up, because I definitely assume that every [00:09:55] woman is is emotionally able and loving and sweet and kind and always, and calls me Angel.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:10:00] I’m Swedish.

Julius Cowdrey: My mom’s my mom’s Swedish, and she is possibly the most loving and kind woman on the [00:10:05] planet. I mean, what I’ve seen, um, and, um, I just, as a result, walk [00:10:10] into life with the assumption that every woman is, is capable of of honest, raw and [00:10:15] vulnerable love. And it’s and it wasn’t the case. And so my.

Rhonda Eskander: Dad did to me, ruined me, thought men were amazing. And I was [00:10:20] like, Jesus, gotten to where I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: Seen that hot, crazy access that.

Julius Cowdrey: No, I haven’t.

[TRANSITION]: Seen, you know, you [00:10:25] know it.

Rhonda Eskander: Like the hotter a girl is, the crazier she is.

[TRANSITION]: And you know, she might be a dude if she’s that [00:10:30] hot, you know, like that.

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I joked that, um, I go, I mean, I’ve [00:10:35] someone said the other day, you know, I actually met up with some old friends from school and they’re all [00:10:40] getting married apart from one, um, and, uh, three of them are them getting married this year. Others are getting married [00:10:45] next year. And there was me and this guy called Toby, who I’d known since I was 13. I went to school with him and I [00:10:50] said, I said, you’re doing any damage? And he went, no. He said, you know, and and my, [00:10:55] my experience of dating is I, I, you know, obviously wanting to get out there and [00:11:00] wanting to go on dates and I actually end up being very, um, take it or leave it. And this is, this is not me trying to be [00:11:05] judgy, but because this is definitely not mentioning all women, but I’ve on the dates that I’ve been to [00:11:10] where I’m with going on dates with beautiful women. Well, I think they are, um, I’m [00:11:15] actually off quite often, not matching humour. So I’m like, oh God, I’m a bit bored sitting here and [00:11:20] and a girl mate of mine said this. It’s because beautiful women haven’t had to try hard. [00:11:25]

[TRANSITION]: And that’s the same with.

Rhonda Eskander: Men, though.

Julius Cowdrey: I’m sure it is. I mean.

Rhonda Eskander: Listen, no, no, [00:11:30] no. Okay, I’ll let Julius finish.

Payman Langroudi: Men learn to be charming, man, because.

[TRANSITION]: No, no, no, I’m.

Rhonda Eskander: Gonna I’m gonna give you [00:11:35] real life examples, but go on.

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I can go.

[TRANSITION]: I can go on.

Julius Cowdrey: Because it’s [00:11:40] important I navigate through this because definitely not all women but I but I am I’ve found that [00:11:45] and I mean I was a little chubby kid, so I probably had to to create a person still.

[TRANSITION]: A chubby kid. [00:11:50]

Julius Cowdrey: No, you’re not, you’re not. Um, but, uh, I don’t know. I [00:11:55] mean, like, it’s interesting. It’s like how even if you’ve been fully loved growing up, I’m [00:12:00] sure there’s, um, there’s aspects of of of, you know, fucking you up. [00:12:05] And I think that’s probably a poor term. When I said that to my mom, she was like, I didn’t fuck anything up and all this.

[TRANSITION]: But yeah, I.

Rhonda Eskander: Totally [00:12:10] get it. Like, there’s actually a few things that I think resonate. Like people don’t talk enough about generational trauma and [00:12:15] how the impact of our ancestors, grandparents really affect us. I mean, Payman [00:12:20] has heard this a million times. So my my grandmother was Miss World, and [00:12:25] so as a result, she was actually quite narcissistic, um, because [00:12:30] everything was about the way she looked. People worshipped her. So she was Miss Lebanon. Everyone knew who she was. She was [00:12:35] a socialite. She wasn’t an emotionally available mother. So my my mother suffered [00:12:40] from kind of narcissistic abuse, and she she didn’t want my mother to flourish. But my mom [00:12:45] went on to go and be a model anyway because whatever, she had the DNA and [00:12:50] my mother, I think she didn’t have the tools available to her to ensure [00:12:55] that she didn’t project some of the things onto me and my sister, but I always say our parents do [00:13:00] the best they can with the tools that they have, and I think it’s important that we don’t blame them. But [00:13:05] it’s interesting because although my mom showers with me with love, I feel like it’s conditional [00:13:10] love in some instances. And what I mean by that is there’s this sort of like when I achieve [00:13:15] a lot, or there’s always a comment about the way I look, you know, make sure you do your hair [00:13:20] always look really well to do or whatever it is. And I’ve really seen that sort of infiltrate down. [00:13:25] So do you think, I mean, with your grandfather, you said that your father barely [00:13:30] saw him. Did your father also emulate that with you? And do you think that impacted you because you talk a lot about [00:13:35] the healthy dynamic and connection with your mum? But what about with your dad?

Julius Cowdrey: My dad was [00:13:40] very present, and he made a thing of it. Of being present. So he was at every game. Every. And [00:13:45] he. And he was an amazing dad. He was not a great husband. Um, and had multiple affairs and [00:13:50] that that’s that was super testing because you. I grew up seeing this when my [00:13:55] dad was my hero. You know, my mom was the the the loving, kind [00:14:00] person I could speak to and cry to if I needed to. And my, my dad was my hero. The games guy, the fun guy.

[TRANSITION]: The [00:14:05] stoic.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah, sure. And and, um, and so when that [00:14:10] came crashing down and I it’s interesting when, if that is the case, I’ve spoken to a lot of people [00:14:15] about this because I’m, I’m, I’m open to talking about it because I’m, I don’t want to think it’s just me. And my brother [00:14:20] says the same thing, but I thought he was my absolute hero. Could do no wrong. Um, I thought the same about [00:14:25] my mom, actually, which is actually, I feel very fortunate to have thought that. But actually, we’re [00:14:30] so flawed and parents don’t know what they’re doing at the start. I mean, I wouldn’t know when I have my when I have kids [00:14:35] and what I’ll be doing. I mean, there’s no course in that. I mean, there’s no there’s no there’s no course [00:14:40] in mental health. There’s no course in trying to navigate your thoughts or trying to work out what the hell the [00:14:45] inner critic is doing when when you’re tested with pressure. So so I think yeah, [00:14:50] I’m, I’m, I definitely have empathy for, for my [00:14:55] parents and I definitely, um, it took a while to realise that they are flawed human beings. [00:15:00] Um, but, uh, and I think that just comes with compassion. And I think that’s [00:15:05] one of the things, even if you’re told a million times, it’s something you have to learn with wisdom.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, 100%, [00:15:10] I think.

Rhonda Eskander: And as I said to you, I think we all idolise our parents. We all put their children. You just do. I’m sure your parents [00:15:15] look, I’m sure your kids even look at you guys, like, you know everything. I think that’s a natural thing. I want to go back [00:15:20] a little bit to this sort of beauty versus effort thing. Okay, so I actually have [00:15:25] a friend of mine. I’m not going to go into too much detail, and he is one of the most beautiful [00:15:30] men you’ve ever seen in the entire world. As in, he walks in a room and everybody is just like [00:15:35] staring him. But however, he actually struggles to build connections and some of [00:15:40] my friends that were like, yeah, he’s beautiful. And then you start talking to him and he doesn’t really have much to say for himself. So it is true, [00:15:45] and I think that he’s never really had to make an effort. So you say, oh, they develop charm. I’m [00:15:50] like, I disagree. I think it works both ways.

Payman Langroudi: The point 1% of course.

Rhonda Eskander: But yeah, that’s.

Payman Langroudi: What women [00:15:55] with women it could be, you know, the 20% or whatever.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. But I think that also but [00:16:00] again, it really depends on what you desire in life and what your values are, because I also have [00:16:05] a couple of male friends that really do say to me, I want a girlfriend. That is a plus. [00:16:10] One is super young and super hot and they are happy with that.

Payman Langroudi: What they say to.

Rhonda Eskander: You, that is [00:16:15] what they say to me openly, right?

Julius Cowdrey: But I think that’s an unresolved man.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. [00:16:20] But I’m saying cool like that is what they want and I’m not here to sort of judge it. I do also think, unfortunately [00:16:25] online there are extremely crude projections of what society [00:16:30] really wants. I had a little bit of a dispute with one of my friends two weeks ago because I don’t [00:16:35] know some YouTube guy. You might have even seen this. I didn’t know who it was. Created a graph for the desirability, [00:16:40] um, attractiveness and safety of a man, for example. [00:16:45] So the more the less attractive they are and the more safe they are, [00:16:50] the less you’re likely to want to go for them. Whereas, you know, if they’re on the really attractive scale but really [00:16:55] unsafe, you know, they’re under the fuckboy scale and you might find them attractive. It was just a really crude way [00:17:00] of representation. And then with women, it’s like the older they are, the less attractive they are [00:17:05] the body count. Do you know what I mean? I just feel like these things that people still project on social [00:17:10] media, huh? Clickbait. It is clickbait, but people believe it. People do [00:17:15] believe it. You think that everybody is educated. People will look at that stuff and go, this is how I [00:17:20] should be valuing.

Payman Langroudi: And the thing is, there’s a degree of truth in all generalisations, [00:17:25] right? So when you say people believe it to that extent, but people are you know, [00:17:30] people are much more I mean, watching your mix here. Sometimes you’re asking the same question or, [00:17:35] you know, similar relationship questions here, but you can’t help but keep watching [00:17:40] because in the end, we’re a species of like people who cooperate with each other [00:17:45] and interact with each other. We’re so interested in the relationship bit. You know, [00:17:50] the mic piece is how long has that been going on?

Julius Cowdrey: Just over a year, actually. Maybe [00:17:55] a year anniversary. Yeah, about a year. Um, [00:18:00] and I guess there are only so many questions you can ask to people you don’t know. And then I like asking questions [00:18:05] based on what that person, uh, does. So I think we spoke [00:18:10] about something around Dental star, but also I wanted to ask you a more a more personal question, I think. I [00:18:15] definitely I don’t share the questions which people are a bit like.

Payman Langroudi: Ahead of time.

Julius Cowdrey: I didn’t tell you the question, did [00:18:20] I? I asked you the question the moment because actually I’ve tried that and people end up trying to [00:18:25] rehearse this thing. They said in their head that it’s always better when it’s off the cuff and real and raw, and all I have to do is create a [00:18:30] safe space for them to feel comfortable with me. And if I haven’t, then that’s that’s. They probably [00:18:35] won’t allow themselves to be vulnerable enough. Um, but it’s been really cool. I mean, I asked a question to an amazing, [00:18:40] amazing woman yesterday. She’s a doctor, and I asked, you know, have you ever [00:18:45] received, um, online abuse? I actually didn’t know if that was going to cause [00:18:50] anything. I’ve received a lot of online abuse, death threats and all this stuff, so I just, I just said, have you ever received [00:18:55] it? And she and she went really open raw, and I didn’t know it was going to go there. So you never know where a question is going to [00:19:00] go. But I actually I’ve it’s been really well received and it’s really nice because it’s um, the [00:19:05] reason why I went there is because as a coach. So I’m working with clients, I was doing content, trying to be [00:19:10] like, how do I put content on? I want to build my personal brand. It’ll probably get me more clients, be good for my business. I’ll [00:19:15] get jobs from it. So I’ve got to continue building it, you know, and also redefine myself after a career [00:19:20] that was very misaligned and or just different to what I’m doing now.

Julius Cowdrey: Um, and I’ve started [00:19:25] putting content up like this. Um. Hey, guys, uh, here are three [00:19:30] ways to optimise your life. And or here are three ways to improve your morning routine. [00:19:35] All this stuff and it didn’t get it didn’t do very well. And then I saw someone’s [00:19:40] content that was near identical to that. I saw some bloke go, here [00:19:45] are three ways to improve your Night-Time routine and have a Lumi light and and do this and have a cold shower and leave the [00:19:50] window open and turn off the lights and all this. And in my head I was judging it and going, [00:19:55] fuck off. You don’t. You don’t know me. Why am I why would I listen to you? I was doing that in my head. [00:20:00] I was like, oh my God, that’s me. I’m doing that content. I’m doing the content because we don’t actually [00:20:05] put content. Well, I don’t for the people who know me, because 80% of the content that is consumed, [00:20:10] especially on my channel, is, is people. I don’t know if it’s a post with someone or post [00:20:15] without someone. Your content is mostly seen on the home page and by randoms. So I want them to [00:20:20] to connect. So how do I do that? Okay, I’ll go on to the streets and ask people questions. I won’t make it about me and [00:20:25] I can make it about just opening up conversation.

Rhonda Eskander: What I think the reason why I think the content [00:20:30] resonates so well, which is also what I recognise from my own platform, is there’s so much authenticity and [00:20:35] vulnerability. And I always say vulnerability is a superpower, which people really underestimate, [00:20:40] especially in our profession, because we’re taught that we have to be strong and that we’re healers in society. [00:20:45] So vulnerability is definitely seen as weakness in the Dental arena. And thank [00:20:50] God for mind movers because people have, you know, been suffering with addiction and so forth and said to Payman, [00:20:55] I want to come and talk about my story of how, you know, I had to go to the Priory in the middle of a working day because I [00:21:00] couldn’t take it anymore. And I think the conversations that you have are about that vulnerability. And I think [00:21:05] human connection is about vulnerability. It’s not about that polished, perfect image that people [00:21:10] are so worried about projecting. However, having said that, [00:21:15] why did you choose to go on Made in Chelsea?

Julius Cowdrey: I went to Chelsea because I was [00:21:20] a singer songwriter. Dauphin knew this, but I was releasing music and every show I [00:21:25] did, every gig I did, the only people who had come to it were my best mate, [00:21:30] my mum and my brother, if I could force him to. Um, [00:21:35] so the old man and his dog. Right? So I was going to these gigs. My first ever show was in South Woodford. I [00:21:40] was singing about love and my piano. I mean, we cringe looking back, but it was it was an era at [00:21:45] a time, um, and no one was coming. And I had I had on the same [00:21:50] in the same year. I had the option to go on Made in Chelsea or X factor, and I had a friend who [00:21:55] went on X factor and did really well, but said, please don’t go on it. They own you. They will. [00:22:00] They sign you up from even before you get onto the live shows. And it’s really, really damaging and [00:22:05] it’s not good. I spoke to another friend who’d been on it, said the same thing, and then I had the opportunity to be seen by [00:22:10] a million people every Monday. And, you know, it’s it doesn’t really matter if I do. Well [00:22:15] on the show was like this going on an X factor thing, I’d have to do well. And [00:22:20] what if I fail and all this? But that was just like, I just have to be myself and and just see what happens.

Julius Cowdrey: So my [00:22:25] and I had a manager at the time who said, you know, Julius will only come on the show if he sings on the first [00:22:30] episode. So I sang on the first episode to the to the at a at a party, and [00:22:35] my song went to number one on the singer songwriter singer songwriter charts. It’s called Seven Roads. Did [00:22:40] really well, actually. I was I did a gig a few years ago in Los Angeles, [00:22:45] and I got introduced as Julius Cowdrey, and they’re [00:22:50] very over the top, you know, TV personality. Um, welcome to the show. He beat [00:22:55] Ed Sheeran to number one. To be fair, he wasn’t British, he’s American. But I’m not gonna do the American [00:23:00] accent because I absolutely demoralised damage it. Um, welcome viewers to the stage. So [00:23:05] I got on stage and I had I had to quickly be like, okay, I beat Ed Sheeran that day to [00:23:10] number one. But the song that was in the singer songwriter Ed Sheeran released three years prior, and [00:23:15] it was like Tom Odell and Gabrielle Aplin. But I had basically it went to number one, the singer songwriter charts, which was quite fun. And then it [00:23:20] kind of became this opportunity and actually I started to It’s weird. I, I started [00:23:25] to really enjoy the show more because I felt more validated by what it gave me so I could see real [00:23:30] time validation of following.

Julius Cowdrey: Looking back on sort of my unevolved brain, back then, I [00:23:35] had a need for, uh, being validated from [00:23:40] others because I was really badly bullied when I was younger. So for me, it was like I just wanted to be liked. I [00:23:45] became a club promoter when I came to London first. So just because people needed me. Right. I can help you with everything you know. Be my friend. [00:23:50] Even if it was an acquaintance, they didn’t even like me. They needed me. So I had this. Like I just wanted to have [00:23:55] friends. And I go on the show and suddenly I have a following. Oh my God, it was like it was perfect for my ego at the time. It was not [00:24:00] healthy, but definitely what I thought I wanted or needed. Um, and then [00:24:05] I’m doing the show and then I release a song and suddenly the song does well. And then I get all these followers and I’m getting [00:24:10] paid by it as well. So I’m getting paid to just turn up and be myself. That’s weird. And actually, [00:24:15] yeah, I’ll stir the pot and do all the things the show want me to do, and it’s super unhealthy. And but at the time it was [00:24:20] filling this cup that, uh, that I had to really work. I didn’t realise [00:24:25] at the time was unhealthy.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve never watched it and I got.

Rhonda Eskander: Asked to.

Payman Langroudi: Be on it. The way you asked the question, [00:24:30] it sounds like like.

Rhonda Eskander: So.

Payman Langroudi: There’s a story.

Rhonda Eskander: People actually don’t know this, [00:24:35] but I think it’s one of the biggest regrets that I have, like of my life is not going on it. So I’m [00:24:40] going to just.

Julius Cowdrey: Still.

Rhonda Eskander: Going. Yeah, a bit old for that now, babe. I [00:24:45] got put forward. So I briefly dated someone that was part of the original roster, [00:24:50] um, when I was at Leeds. Um, and he was a different university and he had put me forward. [00:24:55] So it was the original cast, you know, Millie, Hugo, etc.. Um, and I remember at the [00:25:00] time, so I was at my first sort of NHS job, it was like a year after I qualified, and I just kept [00:25:05] thinking, oh, but what are people going to think of me? Because also at that time, social media hadn’t [00:25:10] really boomed and I was so afraid of what the Dental world would think of me, and I was so afraid [00:25:15] of not being taken seriously as a professional. And I was worried about my regulatory [00:25:20] body. I was worried about what it would mean for my career, my job prospects [00:25:25] and things like that. So all of this sort of fear held me back. And then I look now. [00:25:30]

Payman Langroudi: At.

Rhonda Eskander: It now, huh? Yeah. And I do regret it now. But I think that, like, I really kind of Julia [00:25:35] speaks to my heart because I do believe and it’s a bit of a controversial opinion, that [00:25:40] most people online or people that do put themselves out there, regardless of whether you’re [00:25:45] coming from a good place or not, do you still want validation in some sense [00:25:50] or form? Right? Because I know people in my friendship group, even my sister, for example, [00:25:55] who are super talented and super successful without being online. So we may justify it and say, [00:26:00] oh, you have to be online these days to make a business work and whatever. You don’t have to. I think that there [00:26:05] is an element of a certain type of person. I’m neurodivergent. I’m open [00:26:10] about that, that like needs that. And I think as a creative it is a good outlet to kind of get [00:26:15] that creative sort of output and get people to give you feedback, as it were. [00:26:20] But when I look back at the people that were on Made in Chelsea, I think to myself, my [00:26:25] gosh, they built something. Most of them, not all of them, are so great with their [00:26:30] careers, and that did give them the platform. And although I built something that I’m proud of, I [00:26:35] can’t help but think, could I have been more successful? That’s what I think.

Payman Langroudi: You know, the [00:26:40] when I was a dentist, one of the reasons I started this company was [00:26:45] because as a young man, as a young dentist, I thought, even [00:26:50] if I’m the best dentist in this whole town or in this hole, wherever it is, [00:26:55] my impact was only going to be like five mile radius of this practice, you [00:27:00] know, and, and, and then childishly thought, oh, if I’ll start a company, then my [00:27:05] impact could be all over the world or whatever. It was a childish impulse. Right now you [00:27:10] can, as a dentist, impact the whole world with social. Yeah. And that’s [00:27:15] an important release. Like if that’s who you are. If that’s the person you’re creative, [00:27:20] you know, like, you know what? In another world here, without a doctor, dad [00:27:25] and a middle eastern mum, you know, you might have been a, you know, like artist, you [00:27:30] might have been an actress or whatever it is.

Rhonda Eskander: I mean, look, I was amazing at English literature. [00:27:35] I was meant to go to Oxford. I told you, you know, my teachers all said she has to go to Oxbridge, study PPE, study English [00:27:40] or drama or whatever. My dad, being a middle eastern dad, was like, what’s she going to do with that? And listen, I’m [00:27:45] grateful to an extent, right? Because I’ve got a career now that’s going to take me through life. [00:27:50] And I do have the ability to express my entrepreneurship in different ways. As you know, I’ve [00:27:55] got a Start-Up as well, which we’ll go into later, kind of the Start-Up world, but I think it is interesting. [00:28:00] I think reality TV is something that I look at now and I’m like, [00:28:05] God, did I really miss out? And I don’t know if that’s also because society idolises TV [00:28:10] personalities. And I look at people and sometimes I think, gosh, if I was her, would I get all this validation? [00:28:15] Would I be told that I’m good enough? Would I be told I’m pretty enough? Would I be told all these things that I see them get? [00:28:20] Maybe you can tell me the reality, because I want to know a little bit about the dark side.

Julius Cowdrey: Okay. Before before I [00:28:25] tell you about the dark side. And there is a dark side. What what what is your conclusion of that? Are [00:28:30] you sat there thinking, lying in bed thinking, what if? And you will you for the rest of your life or or because the what if goes [00:28:35] both ways. The what if goes well? Oh, I could have been more successful. I could have had more eyes on me. [00:28:40] But the what if could have gone the other way. It might have been the dark side. Super challenging, [00:28:45] very damaging for your mental health. It might have actually probably at the start, especially [00:28:50] people not respected you because it was very much rich kids at the start. It’s not so much now. So [00:28:55] do you look at it as a regret, or do you look at it as something that maybe is a blessing? [00:29:00]

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, you know what I mean.

Payman Langroudi: You just brought out something on channel four, right? It’s not like you’re not [00:29:05] doing that.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. I mean, but it’s a completely different thing. It’s a it’s a program. Do you know John Lancaster? He. [00:29:10] Yeah. Do you know him. He’s he’s he’s basically the TV presenter that was [00:29:15] born with a disease called Treacher Collins syndrome. So he his face is very [00:29:20] distinct. He’s done a lot with like lad Bible and so forth, and he talks about how his facial characteristics, [00:29:25] he learned to love them because his parents didn’t know that he was going to be born like that and abandoned him at [00:29:30] the hospital, put him up for adoption. And the adoption papers said they were horrified by his face. That’s literally [00:29:35] what it says. And now he’s an advocate for mental health. So as part of this amazing documentary [00:29:40] for channel four, where essentially people that have had really unfortunate things [00:29:45] happen to them, like there was a guy on there that his uncle was a schizophrenic, so threw petrol [00:29:50] and lit him alight. And he has all this scarring and so forth. So we were part of helping people [00:29:55] with the aesthetic side of things, and Jonno kind of helped them with the mental health side. So like, do [00:30:00] you want to change your face because maybe this is part of your story. But anyway, it’s it’s an amazing [00:30:05] documentary and I’m so proud to be part of that. And I’m so proud [00:30:10] to know that I can have that impact on people. But what makes me sad is that people [00:30:15] still put more importance and praise the superficial world, if that makes sense, [00:30:20] because the recognition I get from that is not the same recognition someone from Love Island gets, or [00:30:25] that’s how it feels, and that’s the honest truth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it’ll never be enough then, you know? That’s the thing. [00:30:30] It’s a let’s go to the dark side.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s different. A different kind of recognition. Right? Um, [00:30:35] do you want the short term or the long term? Right. Do you want the one that’s respected or not? Do you want [00:30:40] the one that helps people or doesn’t? Yeah. Um, I think I think what’s acutely [00:30:45] obvious is that what you’re doing is impacting people. I’ve seen your social. I’ve seen what [00:30:50] you’re doing here. I’ve seen what you do by helping people with your practice. And clearly what you’re doing on the show [00:30:55] is it’s, uh, these are amazing things that you should be proud of. [00:31:00] Um, I always think what ifs are just so pointless. Yeah. Um, you know, people [00:31:05] ask me a lot. Are you. Do you regret doing the show? And I what? I’m going to go. Well, what if [00:31:10] I didn’t do it? Maybe people would have respected the fact that I. I had a music career because maybe, you know, it [00:31:15] tarnished me with this posh boy. Look, when maybe you didn’t. It didn’t really work that way. James Blunt got [00:31:20] turned down by 20 labels because he had a posh accent, and they asked him to change his accent. Then he had the most successful [00:31:25] album pretty much of all time until maybe Adele came around. Um, not a good time to maybe be posh [00:31:30] and an artist. Um, so I could look back. And what if I’ve definitely thought, what if of all these things, [00:31:35] did it impact me well, or did it? Did it not? I actually don’t think doing the show [00:31:40] is determines whether I will be successful or not, but I definitely think it gave me, um, a [00:31:45] I had to do a lot of growing up. Basically I was, I was.

Rhonda Eskander: During [00:31:50] or after.

Julius Cowdrey: Or just during and, and a little bit after as well. But like, I [00:31:55] didn’t really know about coaching and therapy was it was sort of everyone’s you got a therapist [00:32:00] is a bit of a red flag. What’s wrong with you that this country is still a bit like that?

Rhonda Eskander: Um, so how old were you when you [00:32:05] started therapy?

Julius Cowdrey: I’ve never had a therapist. I’ve had a coach. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but [00:32:10] I but I didn’t really realise there are other reasons for that. I didn’t really realise, I think I [00:32:15] needed it, and because it really wasn’t an outlook, it wasn’t something someone spoke. You spoke about my [00:32:20] my dad’s pretty stiff upper lip, doesn’t really talk about his emotions. And then I went to an all boys school where if [00:32:25] you talk about your emotions, you’re pathetic or weak or boarding school. Yeah. And so I [00:32:30] just. And I had to be very strong for my brother. My brother was going through some mental challenges. So I [00:32:35] was just like, I’m the one who’s okay, I’m fine. But really, I was covering up a.

Payman Langroudi: Would you put your kids in boarding school? [00:32:40]

Julius Cowdrey: Uh, probably not. No, I probably, I don’t know. We can talk about the schooling schooling system. [00:32:45] It didn’t suit me. I felt like a fish. There’s an amazing picture of Einstein [00:32:50] and Einstein quote, which is ask a fish to climb a tree and it’ll think it’s a stupid think [00:32:55] it’s an idiot for the rest of his life. I’ve definitely ruined that quote, but I went to [00:33:00] a very educational school when I was so creative. Um, and my skills were elsewhere. I mean, you [00:33:05] know, I emotionally, I have. I feel like I have a level of intelligence that maybe [00:33:10] most men don’t. I, I like to be with people. I like to surround myself with people. I like that aspect. [00:33:15] And I didn’t like the mathematical, uh, the test, the memory stuff. I, [00:33:20] I and and my brother would say the same thing. He was super sporty. Amazing with people. And [00:33:25] then he’s at this, this school. And that is really a business trying to get the highest grades so [00:33:30] that they can charge the most. And that’s what it was. And um, and so that was yeah, I felt very [00:33:35] different then. But to the mid and Chelsea dark side because [00:33:40] I don’t want to miss that. Um, I’d say about 90% [00:33:45] of people on that show that I’ve been through that experience with. And bear in mind, I’ve travelled [00:33:50] with them. I see them all the time. We have event days every single episode. Um, are [00:33:55] struggling. I’m struggling. I’m struggling with with generalised [00:34:00] anxiety disorder or something, or depression or this extreme almost [00:34:05] gets to obsession of I need to be validated at all times and my likes aren’t good enough [00:34:10] and and I don’t.

Julius Cowdrey: I look ugly and do I not look? And it’s because you’re, you know, you’re on camera [00:34:15] every single week and it’s coming out and it’s edited in a certain way that actually isn’t new, let’s be honest. Like it’s [00:34:20] that’s the that’s the really testing part. And I find I found really challenging is the it’s a [00:34:25] show just like school is a business. The show is an entertainment thing. It’s not everyone’s perfect [00:34:30] raw lives. And they they follow you around everywhere. We haven’t got a camera here watching us do this podcast. No, [00:34:35] it’s turn up here. We’re going to talk about this scenario. And if you don’t get involved then you won’t be filmed. So what do you [00:34:40] want to talk about? This stupid gossipy thing that you don’t actually give a fuck about. And then you talk about it and you [00:34:45] have to take it elsewhere because the whole thing is about gossip, and then you’re you’re sort of this dagger [00:34:50] through social media goes, well, why are you getting involved? You’re you’re this, you’re this, you’re this. And then if you don’t chat [00:34:55] to that girl and flirt with that girl, then you know, they’re not interested in filming with you. So it’s insanely [00:35:00] damaging and unhealthy. And there’s a reason why, if we talk about poor mental health in dentistry, poor [00:35:05] mental health in TV, and there’s enough people who have taken their lives for it to be for it to be a staggering issue. [00:35:10]

Julius Cowdrey: And yes, they’re doing better. And the and the programs, you know, you’ve got psychs on board [00:35:15] and things like that. But yeah, it gave me a lot of anxiety I had. When I get [00:35:20] anxiety, I have this sort of feeling like someone’s staring at me from behind me, like this feeling under my back. It’s really strange. [00:35:25] I don’t know if anyone else feels like that, and I would have that all the time, [00:35:30] and I’d have that going to bed. And and as a result, I was probably drinking more and, and and [00:35:35] so I had to do this sort of I had to grow through this. I left the show because it made me really unhappy. And [00:35:40] I had a girlfriend. I didn’t want to take that to the show. And then I went back to it and I was I felt like I’d [00:35:45] just gone all the way back and lost all the growth I had in between, because I was living in this [00:35:50] same fake reality of having to turn up every day and stir [00:35:55] a pot, and it’s incredibly challenging. And so I wish and the reason why I love coaching [00:36:00] is I love helping people through these things is I had to do it alone for five, six, eight, ten years. I [00:36:05] had to go from the the the boy who was bullied to try and work out why people would ever [00:36:10] like me to, then to then understand parental dynamics and all these different things [00:36:15] on my on my own.

Rhonda Eskander: You know what the thing is?

Julius Cowdrey: There’s not a sob story.

Rhonda Eskander: It’s just it’s just a [00:36:20] cool.

Julius Cowdrey: Realisation when you look back and be like, wow, I actually did that my own. But you can actually fast track it. You know.

Rhonda Eskander: I think that also like, [00:36:25] you know, the whole posh thing that’s really I think it’s a really important conversation and we talk about [00:36:30] that a lot. Payman because I think that particularly in the UK, there is this massive, [00:36:35] massive narrative about people that come from a certain type of privilege, look a certain [00:36:40] way. And the funny thing is because, like my backstory is that my parents came as immigrants, my dad came to the [00:36:45] UK with like £20 in his pocket. But people, I still get judgement, even from a major [00:36:50] TV channel, which I don’t know if I ever told you about because they’re like she’s just too posh. She [00:36:55] sounds really posh because I went to a private school, but people don’t know the journey about how I ended up in private [00:37:00] school, which was actually quite complicated with what my parents had to do because they couldn’t afford it. [00:37:05] And it does annoy me. And, you know, Payman always says to me, people also feel that, [00:37:10] you know, children that may have come from privilege don’t have a right to be successful. And if [00:37:15] they are successful, they immediately say it’s because of their parents, it’s because they came from money, which is really unfair [00:37:20] because, he said, sometimes they have to try even harder because they have to prove themselves even more. [00:37:25] So I think that that is something that needs to be challenged a little bit, and there shouldn’t be shame around. [00:37:30] Everybody has a degree of privilege. Even if somebody went to a state school, for example, you [00:37:35] could say they’re more privileged than someone that’s homeless. Do you see what I mean? And someone that’s homeless, someone who’s disabled and [00:37:40] homeless, you see privilege. It can keep going. And of course, we are extremely lucky [00:37:45] that all three of us went to private school, Highgate as well. Right? So all three of us went to a good private school. So of course [00:37:50] we have better opportunities. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t have your own challenges. That’s just my view. [00:37:55]

Julius Cowdrey: So an amazing image of, uh, of a helicopter flying and then the the [00:38:00] G wagon going, I wish I could be in a helicopter and then and then and then and then a [00:38:05] Volvo goes past and goes, I wish I could have a G wagon and then someone on a bike goes, I wish I could have a car. And then and then [00:38:10] someone walking goes, I wish I have a bike. And then the person who’s at the age 90 be able to walk goes, I wish I could [00:38:15] walk again.

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Julius Cowdrey: And and it’s this endless comparison to others. I [00:38:20] think comparison can be healthy. But if if you know, you’re if you’re aware of it, you compare [00:38:25] and compare yourself to others. See where you stand. I don’t know if it’s always this unhealthy thing. [00:38:30] I think social media for sure. It’s I mean, sometimes I wish for us, I wish [00:38:35] I could be in like a, you know, caveman days, caveman days, and just be with a group of five people and just [00:38:40] be like, this is all I’ve got for the rest of my life. And, you know.

Rhonda Eskander: But that’s that’s what we were geared for as human [00:38:45] beings, you know, that is what we’re good for. But I think that you walking away from a TV show [00:38:50] that you recognise, no longer met your needs is extremely powerful and strong, because I would [00:38:55] say that people that keep going back, knowing that it’s not good for them, it’s a form of addiction, right? It’s a form of addiction, [00:39:00] and they can’t walk away from it, even though they know it’s not good for them. And so I think that’s amazing. [00:39:05] How then did you go into the coaching?

Julius Cowdrey: Sure. Yeah. For sure. [00:39:10] I agree with you completely by the addiction. It’s like and it’s also comfort as well. Like I can continue doing the show. [00:39:15] I know I can predict every next move and I’m doing the thing that isn’t the show is a risk. So I [00:39:20] know the reason why people stay in jobs that they don’t like. You heard of the region beta paradox. Whereas [00:39:25] this paradox that humans would actually be better off if things were awful because you’d make a change. So you [00:39:30] stay in the relationship that doesn’t serve you because they don’t ask you how you are and they don’t communicate with you. But if they were hitting you, you’d [00:39:35] probably make a change. You live in squalor at your house, but if the house was burning down, you’d probably hose it [00:39:40] down and be like, I need to sort this out. And the paradox is that we stay in things in this one life we’re living. We [00:39:45] stay in things that don’t serve us. I’ve stayed in relationships for far too long. When I was wildly [00:39:50] anxious and unhappy, and I’ve stayed in, I stayed in probably the show too long because it was just comfortable and easy, [00:39:55] and I knew the next move. It’s really hard to go off course because as humans, we’re wired for just predictable [00:40:00] predictability and comfort. Um, and, and I think it’s very easy [00:40:05] just to talk about it, but I think it’s like repping. You get used to kind of pushing, putting yourself [00:40:10] onto a different path. It just gets easier. Um.

Rhonda Eskander: But did you have a burning [00:40:15] house moment that pushed you to leave?

Julius Cowdrey: Um, I think it was a [00:40:20] I always feel like your intuition is like, um, someone knocking on the door from another room going, hey, [00:40:25] hey, hey, you shouldn’t be doing this, right. It’s like your authentic self [00:40:30] going, what are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you doing it? And I had that this rumbling for so long, um, um, [00:40:35] telling me, like, why are you doing this thing? It just felt so inauthentic and so out of my values. [00:40:40] I was doing this thing, but it was money. It was, uh, following growing [00:40:45] up. It was. I was doing brand campaigns, making me more money. It was I was I looked at it was very easy to [00:40:50] go. Oh, the positive. Just like race ship. Right. Well, you know, she’s she is nice on weekends and [00:40:55] and you know, and she’s beautiful and you know, when we when we’re intimate it’s great. But all these [00:41:00] but the problem is most of the time I wasn’t happy and it was this, this thing. So what [00:41:05] we just spoke about, I was just so comfortable in this place that didn’t serve me. [00:41:10] And I knew I was destined for more and destined for something else destined for. And like I said, [00:41:15] I with the show. I never thought highly of it. I guess maybe because I’d seen success in the Paramount success [00:41:20] growing up that, um, yeah, it just didn’t, um, it just was so misaligned [00:41:25] and I had it.

Julius Cowdrey: But it’s really hard because people stay on that show forever, and then they suddenly get to 40 and [00:41:30] they’re and they’re like, oh my God, I haven’t done anything with my life. I realised I wasn’t really doing anything in my life, even [00:41:35] though I thought I was. I didn’t know what hard work was until I left and had to set up a business and see it [00:41:40] failed at Covid. So that’s what happened. I set up a social media agency, influencer [00:41:45] agency, and I worked with this amazing girl, Emily, and it was going really well. And then Covid lost all my clients. So [00:41:50] I failed because of the time. And but it was a blessing in disguise. My brother had [00:41:55] started coaching because he wanted to help others. He’d been through very tough times emotionally, [00:42:00] mentally and he wanted to help people. So he trained to become a coach and [00:42:05] I saw how much value it gave him. So I was like, he’s like, just train. Because even if you train, you’ll [00:42:10] learn so much about yourself. Yeah. I was like, that’s interesting. Why? He said, well, the art of art, of [00:42:15] body language, asking great questions, being objective, all these things. Even if I didn’t become a coach, that [00:42:20] course was incredible. So I trained and I put it out on my social media. [00:42:25] Does anyone want to be coached by me? I think I felt massive unease about it because, you know, [00:42:30] what’s the what? What’s it called when you don’t think you should be there? Imposter syndrome.

Julius Cowdrey: I always forget that. So I definitely had [00:42:35] some form of imposter syndrome for sure, because you always do when you’re pushing yourself out the boundary. Um, and [00:42:40] I had an unbelievable experience with my first client. Um, I didn’t take anyone else on. [00:42:45] I, you know, she had been very, very unhappy, um, very wounded and [00:42:50] lots of trauma. And it was probably a bit past what I was capable of, but I had to lean in [00:42:55] and just do the best I could and had an amazing experience. So then I went, okay, well, this is this is [00:43:00] amazing. I feel again, this I feel like I’m supposed to be here for the. Actually, for the first time, I thought, [00:43:05] I’m supposed to be here. This is what I’m supposed to do. I thought it was music, but it didn’t really make me happy. I thought it was the show [00:43:10] because this was this new TV thing that I thought it was filling my cup at the time that was obviously [00:43:15] wounded, insecure person. And then the suddenly I was doing the social media and see [00:43:20] what failed. Oh my God. And then I coached and it started to feel like, this is why I’m here. I’m supposed [00:43:25] to help people, I’m supposed to help change people’s lives.

Rhonda Eskander: But don’t you think that’s what [00:43:30] everyone feels that they’re meant to do? Like, do you not think that all the professions in the world that people feel [00:43:35] most aligned to being in is where they’re helping people? Do [00:43:40] you.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but I know, I mean, I think all dentists can [00:43:45] resonate with what you said. Yeah. When you, when you get a patient who walks out and gives you like a [00:43:50] real genuine thank you.

Rhonda Eskander: Hug.

Payman Langroudi: Hug. And in your [00:43:55] case there’s tears and like but but.

[TRANSITION]: The ceremony.

Payman Langroudi: The the the genuine [00:44:00] thank you is more valuable than your paycheque, your social [00:44:05] standing, your. It’s such a, you know, helping someone else is such a beautiful thing. [00:44:10] At the same time, I don’t think all professionals I mean some, some guy might just love [00:44:15] carving, carving wood or something and just adores it, you know, like it gets into his zone. [00:44:20] Go ahead.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Do you think do you feel supported in this country. [00:44:25]

Payman Langroudi: In the country?

[TRANSITION]: But that goes.

Rhonda Eskander: Back to the whole thing of like privilege as.

[TRANSITION]: Well in the.

Payman Langroudi: Country.

Julius Cowdrey: This country.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:44:30] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: By the government.

Julius Cowdrey: Uk.

[TRANSITION]: Do you feel.

Julius Cowdrey: Like people do you feel by people. Yeah. I guess [00:44:35] you can say we can, we can talk about the government but I’m not really. No well advised enough to talk about that.

[TRANSITION]: So [00:44:40] you had it in your.

Payman Langroudi: Post about Dubai being more supportive.

[TRANSITION]: Than.

Rhonda Eskander: It was so controversial. My post about Dubai [00:44:45] because Dubai being Dubai, I mean, essentially I’ve got friends that live in Dubai, Um, a lot of my [00:44:50] kind of. I’ve got my Middle Eastern friends that grew up there. So my Egyptian, Lebanese kind [00:44:55] of family, friends that their families moved there for whatever reason. So I’ve been going there for like 12 years before [00:45:00] there was the kind of British exodus. And then I’ve got some of my friends that have been expats in like [00:45:05] Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. and moved to Dubai. People always gave Dubai a really negative press [00:45:10] because they were like, oh, it’s so, um, superficial. It’s so, um, [00:45:15] it’s so based on, you know, money and looks and nothing is real. And I [00:45:20] went back a few months ago and my experience was totally the opposite of that. And there’s [00:45:25] a number of reasons why. And maybe they are selfish reasons. Number one, I felt that the [00:45:30] entrepreneur world was much more supported. So what you’re talking [00:45:35] about now in the UK is like they want to see businesses do well. And of course [00:45:40] the tax implications incentivise people more.

Rhonda Eskander: But there is this [00:45:45] real community of Of entrepreneurs. And what I find, sadly in the UK, I [00:45:50] don’t know if it’s becoming like this or it was always like this. People want [00:45:55] to see you do well, but there’s a bottleneck. So there’s like, okay, you can do this well and it’s definitely being [00:46:00] a business owner. I feel this because there’s a certain amount of income that if you earn over that, [00:46:05] you’re like, what’s the flipping point now. Because tax. Well yeah. And it’s just like and you know, having [00:46:10] so many members of staff and National Insurance. So yeah, that is a bit of a government argument. But [00:46:15] in general the community I feel is less than somewhere like [00:46:20] Dubai. And it was interesting because this was echoed by lots of entrepreneurs online. [00:46:25] Like Professor Galloway went on and said exactly the same thing. There was another British entrepreneur that I can’t remember, [00:46:30] and he was saying, it is so much harder to succeed in the UK than it is in the US and [00:46:35] Dubai, and that is why people are choosing to have.

[TRANSITION]: Businesses as.

Rhonda Eskander: An entrepreneur now, [00:46:40] the superficiality element, I’d say London is pretty superficial [00:46:45] as well. Sure, you have the contrast and the juxtaposition [00:46:50] of the different classes. You know, I live in Notting Hill, so of course, you know, you get [00:46:55] all walks of life in Notting Hill, as you know. But at the same time, and in Dubai, I [00:47:00] think.

[TRANSITION]: London.

Payman Langroudi: Is not superficial. And like on the, in the.

[TRANSITION]: World.

Rhonda Eskander: Maybe [00:47:05] in the social media world, maybe in.

[TRANSITION]: My kind of worlds.

Payman Langroudi: Scale. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Like, can.

Julius Cowdrey: You hide from it now [00:47:10] anyway?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Julius Cowdrey: There’s a there’s a jemmy. Carter said this. He [00:47:15] said, um, people what did he say? He said people. Um. [00:47:20] Oh, I can’t remember. Fuck. It’s like people want you to dream, right? [00:47:25] But people like to see someone going for it because it reminds them of their dreams. But people don’t like to see someone [00:47:30] do well because it reminds them of what they didn’t do with their lives. Yeah. And I think it’s really interesting. And I feel like [00:47:35] I feel very unsupported here. Right. I only because I have something [00:47:40] to compare it to. So you’ve been to Dubai, you feel like you’ve got this support and it’s fine, selfish reasons. Let me be selfish for a moment [00:47:45] to say, I went to San Francisco and Los Angeles and New York, and I go there and there are people [00:47:50] who you don’t know supporting you more than the people you’ve known for 20 years. I have friends I’ve known for all my life who haven’t [00:47:55] asked me about my business, and they know what’s happening. Who don’t, who don’t like the things online, who don’t say, oh, wait, I love what [00:48:00] you’re doing. Um, and it’s the reason why it’s driving. What a millionaire. Every 45 [00:48:05] minutes leaves the country. Not just because taxes are a joke, but also because people [00:48:10] kind of hate on you a little bit when you’re pushing outside the comfort zone or they go quiet. Um, and it’s [00:48:15] it’s actually very, very strange. I don’t I don’t particularly like it, don’t feel supported. And I go to a country where I [00:48:20] know no one, and I feel suddenly I’ve got people around me that want to back me and go, wow, you want to do that? [00:48:25] You know.

Rhonda Eskander: I’ll introduce you to this person. I’ll give you this contact.

[TRANSITION]: It happens.

Julius Cowdrey: Do you [00:48:30] know my perfect example? I asked a friend of mine who went for a catch up the other day, and I said [00:48:35] to her, let me give you the perfect example. My dad is Quentin Tarantino. We’ve just met and you’re an actress. [00:48:40] Obviously you are. And and, uh, you know, we’ve just met. Hi. Nice to meet you. Blah, blah. I’m an actress. [00:48:45] Oh, cool. In the UK. Nice. How’s it going? Yeah. Tough industry, isn’t it? [00:48:50] You. I mean, there’s a lot of people doing very saturated. Like, are you getting any jobs? So [00:48:55] true. San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York. My experience. Dubai. Probably yours. The exact same thing. It’s like, [00:49:00] oh, you know, I have some contacts. Like I can help. My dad’s pretty well [00:49:05] connected, you know, but I know lots of people. Can I help? And it’s the same thing [00:49:10] with investment. Someone said the other day, this is a perfect example. Investors in the UK are trying [00:49:15] to say no. Investors in Dubai. Definitely Dubai, San Francisco, [00:49:20] places like that. They’re trying to say yes, it’s this. It’s this amazing environment where you suddenly [00:49:25] feel bolstered up.

Rhonda Eskander: You feel, you know, so, so I obviously am so lucky to get asked to [00:49:30] do. I obviously work really hard to gain a position to be an expert on daytime television and [00:49:35] the morning shows and so forth. I won’t name the specific channel. It’s not ITV this [00:49:40] morning. Um, but because I love them and I still with them all the time. So [00:49:45] I went on and I went. So I went on another morning show. And look, I am [00:49:50] the way that I am. I look the way that I am. And they wanted me to talk about oral hygiene [00:49:55] advice or whatever. I went on the TV presenters loved me and someone [00:50:00] sent me a message, and then went on to write to the channel to say that I wasn’t suitable [00:50:05] to represent healthcare because I didn’t look like your typical Florence Nightingale [00:50:10] figure, and that this country needs more healthcare care professionals [00:50:15] that are less glamorous and less attractive. And I was like, what? You know, [00:50:20] like the fact that someone went out of their way to write that and the healthcare system [00:50:25] in the UK, obviously we’re super privileged to have it, but the narrative that you have [00:50:30] to look a certain way to give advice.

[TRANSITION]: But.

Payman Langroudi: Still man it. Do you know what I mean by that? [00:50:35] Like say, say like make the case for that person.

[TRANSITION]: What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Was there no [00:50:40] case at all?

Rhonda Eskander: What? Make the case? In what way?

Julius Cowdrey: Like, tell us why they would say.

[TRANSITION]: Like what?

Payman Langroudi: Why would someone say that? [00:50:45]

Rhonda Eskander: Because of the way I look.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Which is not justified.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no. But if it was just like, [00:50:50] what would be the justification for.

[TRANSITION]: What was her?

Julius Cowdrey: What was that person’s justification? Why do they need you to look a certain way?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Payman Langroudi: Like, [00:50:55] listen, I’m take it away from you. It’s not you. Yeah. If one believes that [00:51:00] stuff has moved on too quickly, that even doctors now are showing [00:51:05] up with their hair, all done talking about glamorous things. Even the police or whatever. Whatever. [00:51:10] You know what I mean. Like, of course, you can highlight if this [00:51:15] person’s life is so boring that she takes time out to make a quote about me, she must be a sad. Of course [00:51:20] you say that. But but the what was the sentiment behind that [00:51:25] is an important thing, because maybe 11% of the population [00:51:30] thinks that. Yeah. Not just this one sad person. Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: Okay. I [00:51:35] agree with you, but I would I still think that.

[TRANSITION]: I’m it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Important to steel man it in your own head.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, I agree. I’m [00:51:40] not saying this was the right or wrong thing.

Rhonda Eskander: Self-reflection is really important, but I’m still in agreement with Julius that the underlying [00:51:45] I don’t have that problem. I don’t feel that problem with my colleagues in Dubai, [00:51:50] in America and so forth. I mean, look, I’m not even I even got a tabloid [00:51:55] came out. I didn’t even tell you that sensationalised something that I said, and the [00:52:00] headline was so horrific that I had to basically threaten them. They wanted me to tell the whole story about how my [00:52:05] dad came as an immigrant, and how I built this practice. They sold it to me. It’s like we want to write about like female empowerment [00:52:10] and how women can do this, etc. and then when it came out, they they had [00:52:15] taken things that I said and put the headline is immigrant daughter comes [00:52:20] to the UK and now owns a multi blah blah blah practice. And I was like, first of all this [00:52:25] is all lies. And they did take it down. But I was like, why are they trying to create an in the media is another [00:52:30] thing altogether. Why are they trying to create this like hate and animosity?

[TRANSITION]: You know.

Payman Langroudi: Algorithms work that.

[TRANSITION]: Way. But [00:52:35] but I’m amazed you still have that headline in Dubai or America.

Rhonda Eskander: You just wouldn’t. Do you know what I mean? Like, this person [00:52:40] is now running a private practice. Do you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: You know what? You know what? Yeah. You [00:52:45] know. You know, you have a friend who’s, like, super positive. Someone like you, someone super positive, [00:52:50] you know, who’s always looking for the best things and stuff. And then you have got that other friend who’s quite good [00:52:55] at telling you what she hates about something. Yeah, I don’t like those people [00:53:00] around me too much, but they’re good at that. And Britain’s a bit like that. We’re good at saying what’s pissing [00:53:05] you off? What’s pissing me off?

Julius Cowdrey: It’s the reason why people love the sob story [00:53:10] is because it allows them to. Mm. Okay. So it allows them to. And the reason why they like [00:53:15] people, like watching reality TV and people fuck up. Excuse my language. And the reason why people [00:53:20] like seeing shit on the news. I’m swearing a lot today, um, is because it [00:53:25] makes them feel better about their life. That is pretty distinctly average. I’m really I’m really [00:53:30] like, there are a lot of people who don’t. The reason why they like to see the person fail, especially in this country, is because [00:53:35] it makes them go, wow, I should. I stayed in that job. I stayed in the comfortable thing. I [00:53:40] was right to, you know, look at that person who went out the comfort zone. And they’re probably not feeling very happy [00:53:45] with their lives and they haven’t achieved what I’ve achieved. So, so. But it’s all about the [00:53:50] the inner sort of reflection, isn’t it? It is. It’s like Americans, America, [00:53:55] everyone who went to America, everyone in America is our immigrants, right? Everyone. The place was completely [00:54:00] stark land and there were Indians and going around. I’m pretty sure I’m allowed to say that, [00:54:05] but, um. And double check. Yeah, whatever. But anyway.

[TRANSITION]: It was Native American.

Julius Cowdrey: Native, [00:54:10] Native Americans. It was completely empty wasteland, pretty much. And then everyone who’s ever gone is is [00:54:15] gone. I want a better life. So, like, let’s dream. It’s like the American dream. Let’s go [00:54:20] for it. Whereas actually, looking back, um, you were poor if you worked [00:54:25] in the UK. It comes from this, like all the way social thing, all the way back where royalty, royalty didn’t work, [00:54:30] the aristocrats didn’t work, and the paupers worked. So I [00:54:35] think there’s a it’s not a let’s go get it. Let’s dream. Let’s believe in each other. It’s like if someone does [00:54:40] better, it reminds me of how worthless I am. And it all comes to our own inner [00:54:45] stuff because most people are unevolved.

Payman Langroudi: Although there are downsides to the American.

[TRANSITION]: Way, [00:54:50] as you say.

Rhonda Eskander: Have you seen or read death of a salesman?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Rhonda Eskander: Oh, you really should. It’s really, really good. [00:54:55] It’s Arthur Miller, I don’t know if you know it. And obviously Arthur Miller had an obsession with the theme of the American Dream, [00:55:00] but the theme of the hard working man who did not fulfil the American dream. So there [00:55:05] is that dark side of it as well. And of course, as we know, the healthcare system in America, you will literally [00:55:10] die if you can’t afford treatment. So, you know, there is that. But I think we are talking from a place of [00:55:15] entrepreneurship and somebody that is hard and is willing to put in the work and doesn’t want to [00:55:20] be stigmatised for what school they went to or what they look like. And that’s what I feel. I feel the [00:55:25] American dream in that sense. And the Dubai dream now is encouraging people [00:55:30] that want to work hard. That’s the way that I see it.

[TRANSITION]: The way, by the way.

Payman Langroudi: South by southwest. [00:55:35] Come to London. South by southwest is a massive, like, um.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s [00:55:40] like a.

[TRANSITION]: Tech.

Payman Langroudi: Tech.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Culture. Whatever. Like, there is this change happening [00:55:45] here too, right? It’s all around Shoreditch, right?

Julius Cowdrey: I think London is the best place to live in the world for three [00:55:50] months of the year.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah. Agreed? Agreed.

Julius Cowdrey: Honestly, I guess the summer I’m like, this is why I’m [00:55:55] here. I’m making a swift exit as soon as I can. But visas are really hard in America. But.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:56:00] so are you moving?

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah, that’s the plan. That’s the plan.

[TRANSITION]: So tell.

Rhonda Eskander: Us then. So once you decided, [00:56:05] you know, you found your happy space with coaching, you were able to have a really profound effect on [00:56:10] people’s lives. I know that your brother does it as well. I actually have something to ask you about twins [00:56:15] because I’m quite fascinated by twins. I read loads of studies on it because I just think it’s really incredible. [00:56:20] People say that having twins, having a twin can have a massive impact [00:56:25] on your mental health. And this is I’m talking about kind of like scientific studies, not just Anecdotally, [00:56:30] what is your experience as being a twin?

Julius Cowdrey: I’ve always had a best [00:56:35] friend at my at my side. It’s actually the the greatest gift I’ve [00:56:40] ever had. Actually, we I never.

Rhonda Eskander: Even growing up as a little boy. Yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: In [00:56:45] fact, we probably isolated ourselves together because we just always had each other. Yeah. You know, we we [00:56:50] were in different dorm rooms, and we’re begging just to be next to each other, so. Yeah, we’re we’ve we’ve [00:56:55] just always got on so well. And through his stuff, I’ve always been there and through my stuff he’s always it’s like [00:57:00] this innate like love really that I feel very grateful for the fact that we [00:57:05] ended up going on these weird lives, and then coming back together and now working together is awesome. [00:57:10] He really pisses me off sometimes. And ditto likewise for him. With me, no [00:57:15] doubt. But, um, it’s so unrequited and unconditional that I just it is the greatest thing [00:57:20] I a lot of people ask, you know, do you think each other’s thoughts? I know, you know, do you think the same thing? [00:57:25] And can you get when you’ve grown up with someone and you’ve completely, like, [00:57:30] lived such a unique like the certainly the same unique experience together growing [00:57:35] up. Yeah. Find the same nurture. Um, you know each [00:57:40] other so well, you know, you know, a partner if you’ve if you’ve gone out with them for ten years. But I’ve known him since I was, you [00:57:45] know, de dot. Um, so it’s a pretty amazing experience. [00:57:50]

Rhonda Eskander: You’re non-identical. Right?

Julius Cowdrey: Non-identical?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that makes a difference?

Julius Cowdrey: Yes, I [00:57:55] well, I don’t know. I mean, we’re not. Yeah. We so we don’t have the same, um, DNA. [00:58:00] Completely.

Rhonda Eskander: Um, do you think that that helps them with the sort of identity piece, you know, because [00:58:05] we had we had a twin on here once, and he struggled. Identical twin. Um, and there [00:58:10] was a struggle, you know, with.

Julius Cowdrey: Identical twins who don’t speak to each other. Um, my, my dad is best friends [00:58:15] with one of the twins, and the other one lives abroad, and they don’t speak to each other. I, we [00:58:20] we were always put in different colours and we were never made to wear the same things. And, you know, you do. You [00:58:25] do that sport and you try this thing, or you try guitar and you try piano. So it was very much like, you [00:58:30] know, do different things. Um, you try French, you try Spanish. Just it was never [00:58:35] let’s pop you up against each other and and let’s see who wins. It was never, like, overly [00:58:40] like that. Uh, in fact, when growing up in this sort of cricket dynasty thing, our family. [00:58:45] Family didn’t want us to go into sport. Fabian went into it in the end, but it was very much like, [00:58:50] let’s, let’s. We don’t have to follow that path. Um, but yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: So talk to us [00:58:55] about how then the business developed. What’s it called and what does it offer?

Julius Cowdrey: It’s had it’s had [00:59:00] a few. Yeah. It’s developed from it’s interesting being an entrepreneur [00:59:05] and actually just constantly trying to solve problems, as you know. And we set up the company. [00:59:10] The reason why we set up the company is because we were coaching combined ten years. [00:59:15] We’re both coaching for about 4 or 5 years, each of us. And um, even just a little bit longer me just a little shorter. And [00:59:20] um, it was going really well, but we were turning clients down all the time because they couldn’t afford it. [00:59:25] I know my value. So this is how much I cost and a lot of people couldn’t afford it. And because I have a personal brand and so does [00:59:30] he. It wasn’t hard for people to get in touch, but we’re constantly having amazing conversations with people. How about they want to [00:59:35] change their life on these discovery calls, and then they can’t commit because they can’t afford it. And but I know my [00:59:40] value as a coach and people will be able to pay that one day. My client. Um, I [00:59:45] just had had 2 or 3 sessions with, so I was about three weeks in, told me that [00:59:50] if his parents couldn’t afford the one on one, he would have taken his life, which [00:59:55] was pretty stark, because the reason why I got into coaching was because of my friend who took his life. So [01:00:00] I went home to Fabian that day and I said, how many people have you turned [01:00:05] down this month? He said, five.

Julius Cowdrey: It was annoying. It was annoying as a coach, because we could work with more people and help more people, [01:00:10] and the whole point was impacting more people. But we’re charging this astronomical price because that’s what coaches do. And [01:00:15] I said, me too. I’ve probably turned on or turned down about the same three this week, in fact. [01:00:20] What if my client was one of those ten? You say, fuck, [01:00:25] what do you do? I say, well, let’s put them in charge. Let’s put them in a group. Let’s put them in a group [01:00:30] of ten. Let’s charge instead of three figures a week, let’s charge £40 a week, and then. And [01:00:35] then let’s have a WhatsApp group and meet every week. And different sessions will have different topics. And, and we’ll be there [01:00:40] for them and we’ll support them. And they thrived. I mean, transformed as quick as the one on [01:00:45] one. It was pretty stark because they had this support group. A lot of people are isolated, and then when they’re out of [01:00:50] that isolation, they realise they weren’t actually that fucked up as they thought they were. You know, I fucked up. I’ve got anxious, [01:00:55] I’m all these things. But actually they were lonely. I find that with clients, as soon as they just let things, let let the [01:01:00] steam out.

[TRANSITION]: They say therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Group therapy is such an interesting thing because you immediately [01:01:05] see, it’s not just me.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Julius Cowdrey: Not just.

[TRANSITION]: Me.

Payman Langroudi: These other people are going through the same thing.

Julius Cowdrey: It [01:01:10] was all about community. And so we did that with a group and then another group, and then another group, and we worked with five groups [01:01:15] of ten. We realised very quickly that we were helping by charging less, and we’re also making more [01:01:20] per the hour. So we’re like, this is more than just a humanitarian thing helping more. It’s actually a business, but [01:01:25] we’re exhausted and burnt out. Now we’re doing our one on one clients. We’re trying to, you know, navigate [01:01:30] life as it was. And then we were doing all these groups. How do we become the [01:01:35] platform that allows people to find communities from all aspects of health and wellness? I mean, it’s [01:01:40] so broad and and vast, isn’t it? Um, and so we set up Safe Space [01:01:45] that became Macho Coach, which is now joiner. And we had to have a year of proving [01:01:50] concept. Is this what people want? Do coaches want this? Do users want this? Do people stay? Is [01:01:55] the retention rate high enough? Like what is the how much should this cost? So we we used WhatsApp to [01:02:00] basically prove product market fit and that it works. Now in a in a country [01:02:05] where you say coach or therapist and people go, oh, there’s something wrong with you. Um, it [01:02:10] was challenging, but you know, we’d have to do lots of free trials.

Julius Cowdrey: But once people were in, they loved it. And we had a very [01:02:15] high not people didn’t leave. And if they left, it was because it was on WhatsApp. It was always the issue. We used WhatsApp [01:02:20] just to prove it. And so the coach would take a session on zoom, save their content on Google Drive, [01:02:25] use calendar to set it up, and then have WhatsApp for the chat. It was nothing. No all in one, [01:02:30] and there are a lot of all in one platforms. So after proving it, we’re now raising money and we’ve raised [01:02:35] half of our raise, which is really exciting to not only take it to America, to a to a [01:02:40] world which they’re 20 years ahead when it comes to self development awareness, and they actually accept it. But a [01:02:45] progressive web app, essentially a place where any [01:02:50] health and wellness professional can host their communities, drive volume by charging less. [01:02:55] We’ve worked out we’re creating about a 95% reduction in cost monthly. [01:03:00] Amazing. So usually it’s $800 to work with a coach, say on average it’s $40 [01:03:05] a month, um, versus 800. It’s and we’re [01:03:10] finally giving people the access to work with elite amazing experts. And [01:03:15] um, so that’s so after a year we’re now. Yeah, we’re doing that. So it’s very exciting. It’s very, very exciting. [01:03:20]

Payman Langroudi: Did you go into an accelerator?

[TRANSITION]: No we haven’t.

Julius Cowdrey: We haven’t done the accelerator.

Payman Langroudi: So so [01:03:25] explain, explain. There must be many people listening to this who’ve got a business idea. Yeah, [01:03:30] and the idea of raising money seems totally foreign.

[TRANSITION]: Oh. [01:03:35]

Payman Langroudi: How did you go from being that person? Which you must have been at some point to this person who’s [01:03:40] now raising money and all that?

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. So running a Start-Up is is endless, endless, [01:03:45] endless problem solving just the whole time, which I really like because I like getting to the crux of it. Fabian’s [01:03:50] more impatient than I am. So when it’s things like tech or anything like that, I just leave it to me. Um, [01:03:55] and he’s great at other things that I’m not so good at, so it works well. Raising money is not like Shark [01:04:00] Tank or Dragons Den. It’s really that. Really.

Rhonda Eskander: Did you not die? Do Dragons [01:04:05] Den? No. Yeah. But that that when you say say that again, I mean Payman we [01:04:10] actually turned down two of dragons and he always asked me, do you wish you’d taken it? And I again it is an if moment. [01:04:15] It was an if moment the episode was out there. And do you know that it’s still our best performing ad on [01:04:20] Facebook, even four years later? And I think I would always say, if you’ve got the opportunity to do [01:04:25] Dragons Den, do it.

Julius Cowdrey: Apparently a lot of people who go on Dragons Den, even they don’t, they either raise from [01:04:30] more people because they’re on Dragons Den or they raise from people. They look, I’ve just been on Dragons Den and this is my pitch. It’s actually [01:04:35] a great way to get your business out there anyway. I’ve searched businesses. When I’ve watched that show, I’ve been like, oh, you know, where are they [01:04:40] now? Um, but but it’s not like it’s really not like that. So there are lots and lots [01:04:45] of no’s. I’m like an extreme optimist, and I really am. Like, I’ve worked so hard, hard on myself [01:04:50] to not to not go to victim mindsets. And I lean on the positive side of the coin. [01:04:55] 99% of the time. But that’s through a lot of self-work and and and discipline [01:05:00] and like trying to master my thoughts. And it’s been very useful [01:05:05] being a founder with that attitude, because through the five [01:05:10] investors that we’ve raised money from one institution, all the others are angels. We’ve [01:05:15] had 80 no’s 80 times, and one day we had three no’s from people [01:05:20] who all said they’d invest. And we’re sitting there being like, the next day we got a biggest check. [01:05:25]

Payman Langroudi: And how did you meet 80 people?

Julius Cowdrey: So we went out to San Francisco. We were having we were struggling in [01:05:30] the UK classic. So we’re so we’re in the UK and people are like, oh, valuations are a bit [01:05:35] toppy isn’t it. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: Classic. Classic.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. [01:05:40] And you know we have to lower valuation. Give me more equity. Am I getting a you know advisor [01:05:45] equity as well. And all this and like and you know respect for you know and [01:05:50] and is a risk to to investing in Pre-seed. You’re investing the founders because it’s less than the idea. [01:05:55] Right. We just were fed up and we heard about this thing called a safe agreement. So it’s [01:06:00] all about future equity. So say I come to you and say, hey, [01:06:05] invest in my company. It’s a safe agreement means I don’t have to go to lawyers to get big things signed [01:06:10] up. You get your equity on the second event or if we sell. So [01:06:15] it means I can just give you a quick sign. You don’t. You’re not on the cap table to start but you but it actualises on a valuation [01:06:20] cap. So say if we’re valued at 30,000,000 in 3 years time and we do our next event, but it’ll [01:06:25] it’ll actualise on the 10 million cap that we set at the start. So it’s just a really good way for founders just to go boom. [01:06:30] But it’s a very big Silicon Valley thing. And it was set up by Y Combinator. So we didn’t know about this. We go out to San [01:06:35] Francisco with two meetings. One was sort of actually with our cousin, and then another one with a very warm intro, [01:06:40] and we didn’t know anyone.

Julius Cowdrey: We had three weeks in San Francisco and I’m like, okay, [01:06:45] Fabian, we’re gonna say hello to everyone and anyone. I mean, to everyone we because we have to get into this ecosystem. [01:06:50] So we stayed in a place called Marina District. We took a punt. You know, we’re spending money to go there. We’re spending money [01:06:55] on hotels. But if we get one raise, it’s fine. Then one person who puts 100 grand or 50 grand in, [01:07:00] it’s an amazing investment. That’s why we’re going back next week to raise again. And so it [01:07:05] was day one and we went to a hot yoga studio. I love hot yoga. It’s just you feel like reborn [01:07:10] after um, and I’d had my cold shower and there was this older guy there. I was like, [01:07:15] well, you know, he, you know, he do you come here a lot. I said something like, you know, I was [01:07:20] and I think he thought I was flirting with him. He quickly told me that he was going through a divorce, and I was like, cool. Uh, but [01:07:25] anyway, he ended up investing. But the cool thing about that is I didn’t go [01:07:30] in with any intention. What I’ve learned about raising is not making it about, hey, here, my pitch, here my pitch. It’s more like, [01:07:35] let me know about you and understand you and this is my story, but make it about them.

Julius Cowdrey: People want to be to speak about their things. [01:07:40] We have the guy who’s doing our tech Fabian said hello to. I [01:07:45] said, your turn, your turn, your turn to say hello in a Pete’s coffee shop. And he’s this crazy, nerdy, [01:07:50] amazing, smart people. You need smart people in the journey. It’s what we want. [01:07:55] We met him in a Pete’s coffee shop and then built a relationship with him. We ended up walking away with 30 meetings. We raised [01:08:00] half, which we’re, you know, we were happy to raise anything. Um, and that was a big risk. Big, [01:08:05] you know, time risk money, financial risk. Cause we’re going out there spending a lot of money to be in probably [01:08:10] one of the most expensive places in the world. It’s mental. Um, but yeah. So I guess my [01:08:15] advice to anyone trying to raise money is it’s overly glamorised online, [01:08:20] and it’s really, really, really hard and make it as human as you possibly can. Don’t make it about, hey, [01:08:25] here’s my business. It’s amazing because guess what? These people with money who invest, they see thousands [01:08:30] and thousands of decks every single month. So if they’re going to invest in you, they’ll invest because they [01:08:35] feel connected to you. And fortunately, through the coaching, we’re quite good at that piece [01:08:40] to connect with people. And so that’s I think been why it’s done okay.

Rhonda Eskander: I think like the other [01:08:45] thing is like loads of especially because dentists think that they because of the new boom of kind of like [01:08:50] entrepreneur dentists that want to own ten practices and have lots of products and stuff. They [01:08:55] think they can just do it. And even when we release parlour like, loads of little competitors came along and they died [01:09:00] after like three months. Because I always say it’s not good enough to just have a product. No one cares about the product. They [01:09:05] want a story. They buy people, right? So I think that’s really important. If you’ve got the opportunity. [01:09:10] Like there’s actually two dentists that recently also went on to The Apprentice and they elevated their brands through [01:09:15] that as well. So I do think if you’ve got an opportunity to go on a platform that will elevate your marketing, great. [01:09:20] But like you said, it’s about building contacts and literally asking for help. I think it’s super, super, [01:09:25] super important. People forget to ask. So when.

[TRANSITION]: You say, but.

Payman Langroudi: Also on the other [01:09:30] side of that, yeah, because we see people wearing hoodies with 60 [01:09:35] different brands on them. We think sometimes some people think it’s only [01:09:40] about marketing and not about product. And that’s a massive, huge error [01:09:45] as well.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s only about product. It’s nothing about marketing products.

[TRANSITION]: Key I always.

Julius Cowdrey: Say that, [01:09:50] come on, obviously it’s 90% product because and the reason I say that is the greatest [01:09:55] form of success in your business is organic growth. It’s people saying, wow, this really works. [01:10:00] Like if you can you can, we could, we could market to the world. We could raise 10 million and [01:10:05] mark it to the world and bring on a hell of a lot of people. If it doesn’t work and it doesn’t help people.

[TRANSITION]: You’re.

Payman Langroudi: Getting to [01:10:10] the wrong place.

[TRANSITION]: Faster.

Julius Cowdrey: Yeah. And and I don’t know what you what do you think with.

Rhonda Eskander: I think, I think [01:10:15] I disagree because you think about all of these brands that have done well that aren’t great products, but the marketing is amazing or [01:10:20] brands that just have created a story, you know, one of the typical ones, like something like la mer. [01:10:25] Do you know about la mer, the creme.

[TRANSITION]: De.

Julius Cowdrey: La mer, like Nivea?

Rhonda Eskander: Yeah, it’s like Nivea and they sell it. People [01:10:30] still buy it. And it’s literally basically the same formula as Nivea. And they sell it for like £100 [01:10:35] because of the marketing and the models that they’ve got. And this brand has been going for years. Okay. And [01:10:40] people buy into it £100 for a pot like this, okay. Because of the marketing, because [01:10:45] of the story behind. It’s not because it’s a great product. It’s not. I’ve tried.

[TRANSITION]: It.

Julius Cowdrey: You make you make a really good point. [01:10:50]

Payman Langroudi: That’s a good point. But but that was 20 years ago. The story. They were [01:10:55] way ahead. Like way ahead of what?

[TRANSITION]: Not the.

Rhonda Eskander: Product.

[TRANSITION]: Of the marketing. [01:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: Way ahead of the trend for natural products on your skin. Like they were [01:11:05] maybe the first ever skincare company that was.

[TRANSITION]: Saying the story was, but not.

Rhonda Eskander: The.

[TRANSITION]: Product. That’s exactly what.

Payman Langroudi: We’re taking.

[TRANSITION]: From [01:11:10] the story.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, they happened to be criminals, maybe.

[TRANSITION]: No, but that’s.

Rhonda Eskander: The story. The story is [01:11:15] like just as you said. And it’s the same, you know, there’s, you know, Jisoo, it’s the oil hair brand. [01:11:20] Um, she is an influencer. I can’t remember her name now. Um, but she’s based in LA, has [01:11:25] a massive following on YouTube, etc. and she brought out this oil hair [01:11:30] brand. Loads of people have really good hair oils, [01:11:35] but she had this whole story about, I think, her bee farm in Iran and like how [01:11:40] her family helped develop it.

Payman Langroudi: The thing is, the thing is in very.

[TRANSITION]: It’s.

Rhonda Eskander: A story.

[TRANSITION]: And it’s doing [01:11:45] very well.

Payman Langroudi: In very mature markets like skincare or water.

Rhonda Eskander: Hair [01:11:50] oil.

Payman Langroudi: Now water.

[TRANSITION]: Fine.

Payman Langroudi: There’s the ultimate marketing, right? If I see a bottle [01:11:55] of Evian, yeah, I’ll pay more for it than a bottle of Volvic Highland Spring. Whatever. [01:12:00] Because brand wise they’ve got me. Yeah.

[TRANSITION]: And Apple.

Payman Langroudi: I get [01:12:05] it. Yeah, but the mistake people make is thinking it’s only.

Rhonda Eskander: No, I don’t [01:12:10] think so. I think.

[TRANSITION]: People know.

Payman Langroudi: People. Some people think that in our industry you can go to the Dental, the biggest show [01:12:15] in the world by product, and stick your logo on it. It’s all over. You [01:12:20] can buy product from China, Korea, you can buy you can you can get yourself a 400 [01:12:25] different SKUs of Dental products here. Whole composite ranges, stick your name on it, Rona [01:12:30] brand and do really well with it. Yeah, but at the end of the day, the product’s got [01:12:35] to work. It’s got to it’s got to.

[TRANSITION]: Do the job. It’s got to do the.

Julius Cowdrey: Job myself.

[TRANSITION]: By saying.

Julius Cowdrey: By saying look [01:12:40] at Uber and Bolt.

[TRANSITION]: Yes.

Julius Cowdrey: Right there that neither company were actually better at the start. [01:12:45] I think bolt actually came out before Uber. Well, sorry, it might be completely wrong, but I think I don’t think Uber were the first. [01:12:50] But actually Uber interestingly started as a black limousine company from San Francisco. That’s right. It’s like [01:12:55] it was a pretty it wasn’t a product that was going to scale. Um, it’s Airbnb was we have we’re [01:13:00] going to put mattresses on our floor. Air mattresses. Airbnb For conference weekends and will [01:13:05] close down the website when it’s not like it’s like there’s a big saying that I’m learning from people [01:13:10] out in San Francisco is like, you will hate your MP, MVP. It’s okay to hate your MVP, [01:13:15] but the way Uber won was through marketing, not product. I think, but they [01:13:20] still had to have a product that worked. So I think it’s a really it’s a really good it’s a really good debate. We’re [01:13:25] trying to create an amazing product and get to market quick, but scale a little slower so that we [01:13:30] can learn from users. And I think it’s a bit more, um, we have to be a bit more careful with [01:13:35] because it’s people’s mental health and it’s human rather than.

[TRANSITION]: If it was.

Payman Langroudi: It’s not like there’s [01:13:40] 300 companies like that and you have to differentiate on brand.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:13:45] say for example, you’re right. I have a therapist friend that was telling me about [01:13:50] better health, better health, better health. Yeah. And actually it’s really controversial. Therapists don’t like it because [01:13:55] what’s happened is, is that they feel so you know the premise, right?

[TRANSITION]: You go, I.

Payman Langroudi: Would do that and I wouldn’t. [01:14:00]

[TRANSITION]: With a.

Julius Cowdrey: Therapist.

[TRANSITION]: Okay.

Rhonda Eskander: But wait for it. So as a therapist, she was telling me that lots of therapists [01:14:05] have been protesting and saying it’s not good enough. First of all, they’re offering people treatments [01:14:10] or whatever sessions for like £30, £20, etc. but actually the premise of the [01:14:15] company I might be wrong is that they are collecting as much data as possible to, in the end, create an AI [01:14:20] product where basically they’re going to phase out therapists.

[TRANSITION]: Chatgpt is my best friend, I’m not gonna lie. [01:14:25] What’s wrong with their advice?

Rhonda Eskander: Sometimes, okay. I really do.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, but what’s wrong with that?

Rhonda Eskander: Because in the therapist world, [01:14:30] there’s this whole kind of ethical debate about all of that. Because it’s mental health, right? So listen, I’m [01:14:35] just I’m not I’m saying it’s my opinion, but this is what she was expressing to me. So I do think that Julius is [01:14:40] right. Like you have to also make sure because maybe BetterHelp started out for the [01:14:45] wrong, the right reasons. But then when you start thinking about scaling and numbers and so forth and AI. It [01:14:50] does become a little bit blurred. And I think when it involves healthcare, mental health, etc., we do have to be [01:14:55] careful.

[TRANSITION]: Um, be careful with that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s no reason why there. Listen, man, this pod will not [01:15:00] exist in ten years time. Some I will be acting as me well, some I will be.

[TRANSITION]: I actually [01:15:05] disagree.

Payman Langroudi: He’ll post his eye in and.

[TRANSITION]: I will talk.

Julius Cowdrey: I highly disagree, I actually think, um, there’s going [01:15:10] to be, you know, the world sways like this, doesn’t it? It’s like, you know, even like.

[TRANSITION]: The woke.

Julius Cowdrey: Movement. [01:15:15] We don’t we’re not going to go there. But like, you know, it went so far that way. And now the world in America is going, [01:15:20] you know, I want it to go the other way. Let’s let’s get it back to normality. Whatever. Whatever people [01:15:25] think is normality. I think it’s the same with AI. Ai is going pretty crazy, and I think there’s a place [01:15:30] and it’s going to really rock it, and it’s going to be amazing for so many reasons.

[TRANSITION]: To have this.

Rhonda Eskander: Conversation, the metaverse, I’m telling you. [01:15:35]

Julius Cowdrey: But but I genuinely.

[TRANSITION]: But I think.

Julius Cowdrey: More than ever, and we speak to a lot of investors [01:15:40] about AI because they go, what? What are you going to do with AI and how are you going to do it? And we try and pre-empt it by saying, look, we’ll use AI as [01:15:45] possible as to to speed things up. We might some of the coaches could have, you know, AI agents [01:15:50] that could learn about them to then, you know, have so that their users could have 24/7 support. And [01:15:55] by their coach, you know, Tony Robbins has his own AI. Now Matthew Hussey who’s a relationship coach, has his own eye. Um, [01:16:00] but in essence, we say [01:16:05] with the rise of AI, people will need joiner more than ever. In fact, people [01:16:10] will be searching for connection even more because they’ll be so pulled away. I mean, look at social media. It’s actually people are [01:16:15] feeling less connected, more lonely. There’s more isolated people globally than ever. If [01:16:20] we talk about, you know, you said the highest rate of, of any industry is suicide, is, you [01:16:25] know, suicide went up in women 150% in the UK last year. It’s absolutely [01:16:30] mind boggling. So people are lonely and isolated, and we’ve seen firsthand what what happens [01:16:35] when people are talking about their stuff and open and in a group and feel supported at all times [01:16:40] that it changes. Um, it changes your mind. It’s unbelievable the impact. [01:16:45] So I think I will do some awesome things and yeah, it might faze some therapists out, but [01:16:50] I personally, if I want to work with a therapist, I’ll talk to a real person who actually has real thoughts.

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:16:55] but you know what the thing is, is like, I think I think also that you’re underestimating, like, trends change all the time. [01:17:00] Like, for example, like you even think about like, and I think one of the most important things as a business owner and entrepreneur, [01:17:05] which you would agree with and you would agree with, you have to pivot and you have to be willing to [01:17:10] pivot. Um, you know, with.

[TRANSITION]: No, I was.

Julius Cowdrey: Thinking of friends when you went pivot.

Rhonda Eskander: There [01:17:15] we go. So but you know, it is I think it’s like people forget to do that because with [01:17:20] parlour for example, the for like what was at the, at the full [01:17:25] mind, what was at the forefront of my co-founders minds and asked at the time, [01:17:30] sustainability. It was all about sustainability. There was no sustainable toothpaste. It was all about the sustainability [01:17:35] piece. And actually today we had a meeting and we were like, cool, this is actually the direction that we’re going [01:17:40] to pivot in now because a lot of people are doing sustainability. So whilst that was one of our USPS and we [01:17:45] have to still align with that, markets change. People want different things. And it’s the same with like [01:17:50] the beauty industry. Like a few years ago, everyone wanted that Kim Kardashian look, you [01:17:55] know, and now people are like, God. I did this post on TikTok about the girl from White Lotus and [01:18:00] how she had these, like, very prominent teeth and she looks amazing. It was so refreshing to see someone [01:18:05] not have their teeth done. And I was like, okay, this is interesting. Like people want to see more of that. So I think things [01:18:10] change all the time. So he’s right with the eye stuff. Sure, there’s going to be a big surge and then people [01:18:15] are going to come back around again and value more authentic connections. You know, I go on detox [01:18:20] retreats in Costa Rica and basically live with a cult for a week because I want to get away from social media [01:18:25] and that life, you know. So I think I think you’re right.

Julius Cowdrey: Back to, um, with Parler, [01:18:30] I, I think for us going forward with our business, it’s it’s focussed on the problem, [01:18:35] not the business. So like, the money will come based on the impact that we create, but the problems might always [01:18:40] change. So we’re like, okay, this is what’s working now. But like you said, it might not work down the line. So I think, um, [01:18:45] it’s really back to the, you know, advice for any founder like, and I’m pretty early [01:18:50] in my journey, but from the experience it’s just, It’s like, uh, [01:18:55] you know, when you, uh, you know, when you’re waterskiing. Sorry. Not waterskiing. When you’re when you’re like, on a you see [01:19:00] those people on a board just behind a boat and they’re like, you know. Right. But at the start, they’re holding something and then they let go. And then [01:19:05] that’s how it feels. You have to really guide the wave. It’s always ever changing. The world is ever changing. I [01:19:10] will be I want to lean into how amazing I will be and how much it’s been [01:19:15] amazing so far. I mean, how the hell I would have done all the things to get to here in such [01:19:20] speed because, I.

[TRANSITION]: Mean.

Payman Langroudi: Where are you at? I mean, do you have employees? Customers?

Julius Cowdrey: We [01:19:25] have. It’s me and my brother, and then we have someone in South Africa helping us with the nitty gritty things. [01:19:30] And then we have a tech lead in the US who’s got equity. And apart from that, it’s just. Yeah, [01:19:35] it’s mainly us just fighting at the, the big fight. Um, but then we, [01:19:40] we, we raised to then employ. So, so it’s all a part of that. It’s. Yeah, it’s [01:19:45] actually just really fun. I think as long as you’re the mission is really, really obvious here. And the mission comes from [01:19:50] trying to solve the problem and the problem that we felt firsthand. And I think that’s what gets you. Through the [01:19:55] 18 O’s or the or the days when you’re just like, oh my God, I haven’t had a salary from this for a year and a half. [01:20:00] And like, I’m having to do all these other things to make me money. Um, because and and that’s why I think [01:20:05] that’s why it adds to the pressure. Because you’re just like, I really just want to provide for myself as well. Like, it’s [01:20:10] it’s really testing, but, um, it’s it’s the most exhilarating.

Rhonda Eskander: Sabotaging your own ability [01:20:15] to get into a relationship. So whilst you’re justifying that, you’re saying, like, you know, there’s [01:20:20] like these women that are not particularly kind of emotionally available or whatever, but do you think [01:20:25] in some way maybe you’re not emotionally available because you don’t feel like you can provide for [01:20:30] a family or whatever?

Julius Cowdrey: Oh, I think I think you’re going somewhere else. Interestingly, I, um, [01:20:35] have definitely not been emotionally available because I want [01:20:40] to get this baby off the ground, and and I work and I [01:20:45] and I just don’t know if it’s I can give the time that is required to [01:20:50] to someone who deserves a lot, right? So I want to if I’m [01:20:55] going to, if I’m going to be all in and actually receptive and open to spending time with someone, I don’t particularly [01:21:00] want to drink much because it slows me down and I. I don’t like feeling anxious the next [01:21:05] day. I don’t particularly want to have late nights. I like fasting, so I usually stop around 6 or [01:21:10] 7, so to go out for dinners. But that’s fine. I can do that. And then and then I’m texting during the day [01:21:15] and I think it’s gonna, it’s gonna take for a very unique person [01:21:20] multitask.

[TRANSITION]: Right. I really we.

Julius Cowdrey: Really can’t multitask. Um, but on [01:21:25] to that point. I was I was very avoidant for quite a while and, and actually feel more receptive [01:21:30] and open forever. But the interesting thing is, because I’m not I’m going to the US, I’m just like, I can’t date anyone because I’m. [01:21:35] Yeah, I’m 25 year old. I was speaking to actually someone [01:21:40] about this last night. 25 year old Julius would have just dated and just [01:21:45] had fun and not cared about the outcome. I’ll just date, date, date fun, fun fun And then it doesn’t. [01:21:50] Fine. It’ll be fine. It’ll be fine and probably hurt them. Right? But I’ve got to a point where when I was in an avoidant [01:21:55] place and I started dating someone and they wanted more and I didn’t, couldn’t give it to them, slash it was too [01:22:00] much. Right? So because I was in that space where I wasn’t ready to open up my heart, and now [01:22:05] I’m ready to open that up.

[TRANSITION]: But are you?

Julius Cowdrey: Well, I guess [01:22:10] I’d like to think I am. I feel really receptive and open and willing. But then exactly [01:22:15] time. I’m like, oh, I mean, I just, I basically need, I need [01:22:20] I would like someone who’s also grinding really hard and working on their stuff and like, and I’d love [01:22:25] to go out with another founder, I think, who’s just like, who’s who’s fighting that fight and gets it. [01:22:30] Um, because it’s a.

Payman Langroudi: It might work or it might not, isn’t it?

[TRANSITION]: But because he always.

Rhonda Eskander: Said [01:22:35] this.

[TRANSITION]: Because.

Rhonda Eskander: I was obsessed with trying to meet someone that was on that kind of like, [01:22:40] he knows this. Like I was like, oh, I want someone basically that’s like the male version of me. And he was like, [01:22:45] you are not going to find anyone that’s male version of you, because it will be a nightmare. You can’t have two of [01:22:50] you. Do you know what I mean? Like you used to say that to me all the time, and I was like, okay. And I suppose, like, [01:22:55] maybe there is a sort of like truth in that. Um, because maybe you do need like [01:23:00] a balance of energies and so forth. I hear you, but what I think you’re talking more about is values.

[TRANSITION]: Do you [01:23:05] think, do you.

Payman Langroudi: Think you’ve given like, a name to your pain and somehow, like, I don’t know, like, [01:23:10] like just from a totally different idea? Like, if I drop $100 million into [01:23:15] your account, your back would still hurt as much as it hurt to 10s before [01:23:20] I put 100. I know you’re back, but you know what I mean. Whatever thing is pissing you off would [01:23:25] still be pissing you off as long as that thing wasn’t fixable with money, which most of the things aren’t, you [01:23:30] know, you would still be you with 100 million. So. So now now the the comparison. [01:23:35] You know that. Oh, let’s say Miss Perfect came along, you know, there [01:23:40] would be this rush at the beginning. But then when all of the pieces [01:23:45] settled, still be you, you know, and you wouldn’t necessarily [01:23:50] be a different person even though there was this Miss Perfect.

Julius Cowdrey: Money. Money solves [01:23:55] money problems.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: Navel speaks about this incredibly. Money solves money problems. Um. [01:24:00] And and. Yeah, I want to be able to provide. So. [01:24:05] Yeah. Then then money problem. Right. I want to be able to give my wife, my kids a life that [01:24:10] that they, they, they are proud to be and live and but the thing is, I think we, we, we [01:24:15] put so much expectation having to, to make so much and do so much [01:24:20] like.

[TRANSITION]: So when.

Rhonda Eskander: Does it end? That’s what I’m trying.

[TRANSITION]: To say.

Julius Cowdrey: Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Entrepreneurship is so fraught with failure anyway [01:24:25] that if you fail, you mustn’t feel like you failed in your relationship.

Julius Cowdrey: I just don’t [01:24:30] think there’s anything. I actually think there’s no such thing as failure.

[TRANSITION]: And the reason.

Julius Cowdrey: Why I think.

[TRANSITION]: There’s financial.

Payman Langroudi: Failure, let’s say the [01:24:35] company goes bust and it doesn’t work.

[TRANSITION]: Out.

Payman Langroudi: Lesson that.

Julius Cowdrey: Lesson, that.

[TRANSITION]: Lesson that.

Payman Langroudi: Wasn’t.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, yeah.

Julius Cowdrey: I don’t [01:24:40] think there’s anything any such thing as failure. I think failure is the greatest thing actually, if you want to say it [01:24:45] is. I think it is that and it’s a very this is a very obvious thing to say because you hear it a lot. But I genuinely, [01:24:50] truly believe it, that failure is every time a lesson, every time, every time [01:24:55] I, I went back to that girl I shouldn’t have done or I got, you know, I went, I was in a relationship, I was cheated on or, you [01:25:00] know, whatever I made those errors of, I fell down and fell down and fell down. And, and I had to critique [01:25:05] myself and give myself a hard time and work. I’ve learned so much to the place where I’m just so much more evolved [01:25:10] as a result of it. I’ve. I’ve seen them all like as an absolute win every single [01:25:15] time.

Rhonda Eskander: But it’s like what you said even about like, the burning house analogy. And we once had a great friend of mine, [01:25:20] Louis, who’s brilliant. And do you remember this? I’ll never forget this quote. Louis said, um, he’s [01:25:25] like the vegan poster boy. I don’t know if you know Louis Blake, but anyway, he once said he goes, A sick [01:25:30] part of me wants things to go wrong, because I want to see how far [01:25:35] I can push myself and my limits.

[TRANSITION]: To get.

Rhonda Eskander: To get out of that, you know? And [01:25:40] I was like, you know what? Like, sometimes I feel that as well because like you said, sometimes like you’d [01:25:45] never you on paper you’re not like, oh, I wish I was like in an abusive relationship or I lost anything, [01:25:50] but that’s what pushes you to get out, you know, like at the other you. [01:25:55] The only way out is through. Do you know what I mean? So, like, that’s sometimes how I see failure. [01:26:00] Sometimes I’m like, bloody hell, I really hope it’s not going to be all cushty all the time, you know? But the only thing is, like my [01:26:05] clinic, I’m like, that’s mine forever.

[TRANSITION]: Would you.

Julius Cowdrey: Like it? Would you like it if you, uh. If [01:26:10] they could go into your brain and they could, uh, basically [01:26:15] spear in on your dopamine and you’re happy the whole time?

[TRANSITION]: No.

Julius Cowdrey: Like they [01:26:20] did, they did the test with monkeys, and so they did the test with monkeys, and I actually, [01:26:25] I don’t actually know the outcome of what happened to the monkeys, but I guess the question is if they could go [01:26:30] into, um, into your joy receptor and make you feel joyful the whole time, would you want that? And you’d be like, probably [01:26:35] like probably no, I and people say no, right, based on this test. And then they go, okay, well, if they could tap into [01:26:40] your purpose the whole time and you’re always into your purpose, purpose? Purpose. Now, the truth is that [01:26:45] and the test. Test basically results in the fact that we need the waves to be able to [01:26:50] to appreciate the that life is is we need unpredictability. I think even [01:26:55] though we’re searching for comfortability, there is something so exciting [01:27:00] about living in this, ah, what’s happening next? Walking through the mist. What’s going to happen?

Rhonda Eskander: But [01:27:05] you know what? Unfortunately, I do think what takes us out of that and what dehumanises us in a way, is social [01:27:10] media, because also the personas that you are projecting on social media or what you’re seeing and internalise [01:27:15] as what you think would give you the ultimate happiness isn’t reality, you know? And I [01:27:20] really see that, like, my parents are so in love. They’ve been together for 35 years. They grew up without [01:27:25] social media. I really do feel like social media creates like pulls [01:27:30] us in to like my life could be better like this person. My life could be like this. I [01:27:35] could be, you know, as I told you, even my comparison to, like, the reality TV stars, I’m like, oh, if I went on the show, would [01:27:40] I have been happier? Do you see what I mean? That kind of thing. And no matter how much work you do on yourself, I don’t [01:27:45] think you can become immune to that technology, especially when you start getting into the vortex of this echo [01:27:50] chamber, because all the content is geared into kind of like this sort of confirmation bias. So you’re like, [01:27:55] yeah, yeah, I would have been happy. I would have been happier because that’s what they are geared to do. Have either one of you watched, [01:28:00] um, the Dark Side of Kid Fluency? I watched it last night.

[TRANSITION]: No. [01:28:05]

Rhonda Eskander: It’s fascinating. So just quickly on this point because I think it is important. So the documentary [01:28:10] is about the rise of kid Fluencers. So these kids that want to become YouTube stars. I mean, I [01:28:15] had no idea. It was like a whole world, to be honest with you. And one girl, her mother was extremely opportunistic, [01:28:20] Britney Spears style and wanted her daughter to become very famous, put her in pageants [01:28:25] from a very young age, then got her onto YouTube. She gained millions of followers pretty [01:28:30] much overnight and brought in all these other like child YouTubers, and [01:28:35] the parents were kind of involved but created this like squad. But her daughter was the main focus. [01:28:40] And then obviously things turned really dark because unfortunately they started feeding the beast [01:28:45] because to continue with the likes and the engagement and the [01:28:50] money, you need to keep doing something more and more outrageous every day. [01:28:55] And when there’s kids involved, it’s just crazy. And it’s like, where does it stop? And [01:29:00] you can see these kids that kind of some of them like left talk about how affected they [01:29:05] are and they’re only children, you know. And I think it’s like a really dangerous space, [01:29:10] to be honest with you. And that’s what I’m saying. We’ve not really lived through the full effects of social media for [01:29:15] us or our children, and that’s why I think that can strip us, strip us of our real, like happiness [01:29:20] and humanity. That’s my truth.

Julius Cowdrey: Massively, massively. I speak to clients about your pillars [01:29:25] of peace or mitigating anxiety. I know exactly [01:29:30] how to. And I’ve got to a place where, again, I’ve worked on myself to understand this is like I can live an anxious free [01:29:35] day. I can live a day where I have a calm inner critic. Wasn’t always nice, was? Yes, exactly. [01:29:40] Again, back to Navarre, he says happiness is when you don’t want anything to be changed. It’s like a simple [01:29:45] way of defining happiness. And I think happiness is such a spectrum. But if if [01:29:50] we put crap food into your body simply, you will feel crap. [01:29:55] I feel anxious if I eat really, really shit food. If I did for the whole week and I had just burgers, chips, [01:30:00] crisps, whatever it is for the whole entire week, I’m gonna feel really dodgy. I feel awful, actually. In fact, probably not very good [01:30:05] in my mind. Now, if I spend time with five pessimistic people who just drain you, then [01:30:10] you’re going to feel in the exact same way you’ll probably feel anxious. You’ll probably be doing the same thing moaning about [01:30:15] life being a victim.

Julius Cowdrey: The exact same thing is with social media, and I don’t think it’s spoken about enough that it is [01:30:20] a diet in itself. Everything you consume that goes through your eyes and produces [01:30:25] the picture and then goes into your mind and then sits there in your subconscious, is ultimately going to affect the way you think about your life, [01:30:30] the way you think about yourself. And we are we are creatures of comparison. So if we know that we are [01:30:35] and we’re still following the the sexy model because, you know, because she looks great [01:30:40] or or the or the the person who puts up that really unhealthy content, um, or [01:30:45] or political news the whole time, which is so damaging and just therefore, again, clickbait and [01:30:50] to make, make us sort of distracted from what actually life’s about and take us out of our present, then [01:30:55] ultimately I think it’s going to affect us, and I think we need to see it as a diet, just like the food, [01:31:00] just like the people around us.

[TRANSITION]: I love that. Yeah, but.

Payman Langroudi: But, but, but but, you know, society [01:31:05] changed for your parents dramatically. Dramatically. So media changed [01:31:10] dramatically. There was someone saying, oh, there was no radio [01:31:15] before radio. There was, uh, people going out and playing in the forest. [01:31:20] Then TV, then TV came along, and then then the internet [01:31:25] got damn internet and social media. Now we’ve got, you know what I mean? Like the the [01:31:30] media landscape will change. There will be positives and negatives in it. Uh, [01:31:35] if I could push a button and switch off media, yeah, would I? Certainly [01:31:40] not.

[TRANSITION]: Oh my God.

Rhonda Eskander: You need to go to Costa Rica. Brave earth. You’ll change your mind.

[TRANSITION]: Guys, I did I.

Julius Cowdrey: Did a 24 [01:31:45] hour over over the weekend. Just 24 hours.

Rhonda Eskander: I’ve done it. I’ve done it for, like a [01:31:50] week, two weeks.

Julius Cowdrey: And you’re my hero because of it. But I did a 20. I’d be [01:31:55] happy for me.

[TRANSITION]: Okay, 24.

Rhonda Eskander: Hours.

[TRANSITION]: Go.

Julius Cowdrey: I did 24 hour detox. Not as easy as it sounds. [01:32:00]

[TRANSITION]: No.

Julius Cowdrey: It’s hard. And I did. No phone. Phone actually went into the car. Locked. Hide my key, please. That’s how much [01:32:05] I didn’t want to be tempted by this thing that I’m addicted by. And I felt amazing. [01:32:10] I felt calm, but at the start I kept on going to my pocket looking for [01:32:15] for no reason.

Rhonda Eskander: I do that to.

Julius Cowdrey: Mental and, um. It was an [01:32:20] amazing experience. And in fact, I wanted to do it more. I had the same experience with fasting. I’ve [01:32:25] been doing some of these long fasts. So 24 hours, 36 hours.

[TRANSITION]: Ten days. Sorry, I’m not.

Rhonda Eskander: Trying to trump [01:32:30] you with everything. Okay? Hey.

Julius Cowdrey: Sorry again. My hero. Oh, [01:32:35] God. I mean, I just I want to be here. Um, but I did this, this 24 hour [01:32:40] fast, which is a long time for me. I like food, and I like the way it makes me feel. Whatever. And for the first six hours, [01:32:45] just like the first six hours of my phone, I’m like, my body’s gasping for food, like. Like I’m going to die [01:32:50] of starvation. And just like my phone. And I want to see this thing because of the dopamine it’s going to give me. But [01:32:55] after those six hours or whatever, it was calm, calm, calm [01:33:00] and focus from not eating. Same thing with the phone. My mind was thinking of these amazing ways. [01:33:05] I thought to myself, this is amazing. Thomas Edison used to sit in a box room and just let his thoughts solve [01:33:10] the problem. Steve Jobs used to do to do meditation and go up and be on his own so that [01:33:15] he could solve the problem. Because your mind is incredible, but we access so little of it. You must you must [01:33:20] have found that with with doing your ten day fast.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Rhonda Eskander: No, I mean, look, I love doing all this, like, woo [01:33:25] woo stuff, like, you know, Payman knows all about that. Um, I want to ask you a final question. [01:33:30] Um, Julius? Well, first of all, where can people find your platform, um, if they want to go [01:33:35] on and find it? And also, where can people find you on social media?

Julius Cowdrey: Okay. [01:33:40] Um, I’ll start with me. So my if there are not many julius’s around, but, uh, Julius Cowdrey [01:33:45] JL Cowdrey c o w DIY is my social. If you want to look at the [01:33:50] questions on the mic, if you want to, if you want to come on the mic, just send me a message. I ask everyone, anyone a question. So [01:33:55] um, get in touch. Um, and when it comes to Joyner. Joyner community, [01:34:00] Joyner Dot community, um, it’s in the works. Um, the website’s bought. It’s all there, [01:34:05] but it’s not launched yet. We’ve, um. So stay tuned for that. But I’d love you to follow the follow the journey. [01:34:10]

Rhonda Eskander: Okay. Amazing. And then the last question is, I know we’ve touched on this. What would [01:34:15] make you happy? Right now. [01:34:20]

Julius Cowdrey: Right now in this.

Rhonda Eskander: In this.

[TRANSITION]: Year, in.

Julius Cowdrey: This.

Rhonda Eskander: Year, in this year, in this.

[TRANSITION]: Year. [01:34:25]

Julius Cowdrey: Uh, my we’re coming to the end, so I don’t want to. We can. [01:34:30] We could easily open a can of worms. My biggest blocker at the moment. I’m surprised I didn’t ask it when you said, [01:34:35] what are you struggling with? Because I just went to business. And because I think maybe that’s the easier path than the. The truth is [01:34:40] that I have been closed off and for me it’s about opening up my heart. So [01:34:45] I’ve been doing quite a lot of breathwork, talking about being woo woo recently, and it’s all about being receptive and open to [01:34:50] love. Mhm. Um, because I know I’ve been closed off to protect myself. Um, [01:34:55] and I think a lot of people are and the first step is just knowing that you are [01:35:00] and just being willing to, to sit in the new [01:35:05] narrative. I am ready. And so when you ask me, are you sure you’re ready? I’m like, I’m ready. And even if I deep [01:35:10] down I believe I’m going to keep saying I am because I want to attract healthy love.

[TRANSITION]: I love.

Rhonda Eskander: That. Thank you so much [01:35:15] and thank you for joining us today. It’s been absolutely amazing. And for those watching, don’t forget to follow and [01:35:20] subscribe to Make Payments podcast. Finally, the number one Dental podcast. Thank you so much. [01:35:25]

[TRANSITION]: Thank you.