[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hello [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. Today we have [00:00:30] my Instagram crush, a mental health advocate, a writer, [00:00:35] a former model, and someone who I just think is incredible. We connected over social [00:00:40] media and sort of became besties online. So it is my pleasure to welcome [00:00:45] Stina Sanders. Welcome. Thank you. That was such a nice introduction.

[VOICE]: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:00:50] I just want to give a bit of background on Stina for people that know that after rising to public attention, [00:00:55] by sharing your unfiltered realities behind your seemingly glamorous life, Stina has [00:01:00] become a leading voice in the conversation of emotional well-being, social media transparency, female [00:01:05] empowerment, and obviously the big one relationships, which what everyone is obsessed with. [00:01:10] You regularly speak up on topics like anxiety, trauma therapy, [00:01:15] and the pressures of online life. You are a therapist. You are currently [00:01:20] going undergoing a master’s and then hopefully PhD all pending. And [00:01:25] she’s also going to be a mommy soon. So yes. So Applause. So welcome Tina. [00:01:30] It’s such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for coming.

Stina Sanders : Thanks for having me on, guys. [00:01:35]

Rhona Eskander: So people don’t really like us, sort of starting from the beginning, I guess. But I always find [00:01:40] it interesting because I feel like it is the blood and bones who make us who we are. [00:01:45] And I want you because I. When I sort of saw you first time when I was doing my stalking, [00:01:50] I obviously googled you and I saw lots of articles about your personal [00:01:55] life that you were sharing. So tell us a little bit about your background, where you came from and how you got into this work. [00:02:00]

Stina Sanders : Oh, where do I start? So yes, I used to do so back in the [00:02:05] day when I first started my career, I was doing PR, and then I took a hand to journalism because I love writing. [00:02:10] Like, writing is my passion. It’s where I can escape. So hence why when [00:02:15] you do a quick online search of me, you will see a lot of therapy articles, but you’ll also see some past articles, [00:02:20] just personal experiences that I would write about. And I just loved kind of sharing [00:02:25] life lessons or things that have touched me, and in the hope that hopefully it would [00:02:30] resonate with someone reading it. And that was kind of, again, just something I didn’t get paid very much, [00:02:35] but it was just something that I did on the side. Um, and then through [00:02:40] sort of PR, I ended up meeting, um, a Russian investor who [00:02:45] was starting a dating app, uh, called Huggle, and he was looking for somebody [00:02:50] that has sort of marketing and PR background and sort of light that I was in the journalist [00:02:55] world as well, and just sort of said, would you be interested in coming on board and helping out with the PR [00:03:00] and marketing and, and, you know. Yeah, sure. Why not? That’s what I was doing. And then we got [00:03:05] into it. Um, I had a co-founder as, as well. Um, so we just started this business [00:03:10] and then ended.

Rhona Eskander: So with three of you, the founders.

Stina Sanders : So he was our investor, and then she was the [00:03:15] she was actually really the founder. But when I came on board, they sort of said, [00:03:20] do you want to do you want to go all in on this business? And I was like, yeah, I’m sold. Like, let’s do this. So [00:03:25] again, I was co-founder, but I wasn’t really yeah. Kind of came in at the last minute. [00:03:30] Um, so we did that. We, we grew a business from literally start up and, [00:03:35] and we we did boom. We boomed in the UK. We didn’t so much in the US. Um, [00:03:40] that was a harder market. And then in the end, we actually ended up selling our business to a [00:03:45] company called Badoo, um, who actually used to own Bumble. Again, they were the investor [00:03:50] behind that. So yeah, I had that kind of world and I was always really interested [00:03:55] in relationships. And it’s funny, I look back now and a lot of my writing was about my relationships, my [00:04:00] dating status, love, um, and obviously the kind of the underbelly of [00:04:05] that was psychology and understanding what makes people tick. And you know what? Why is that, um, [00:04:10] attractive to some people and not to others? And ghosting and all the terms that we all use today. Um, [00:04:15] and then anyway, I sold that business and I kind of was sort of doing [00:04:20] PR for a bit, but I just didn’t feel fulfilled. And it was actually I was having a [00:04:25] conversation with my own therapist at the time, and she sort of said, well, what are you interested in? You know, you’ve, [00:04:30] you know, you’ve said this and this and this. And I said, well, psychology really, I always have found human psychology [00:04:35] fascinating. Um, she said, well, go and study it then and see what happens. And I thought, [00:04:40] yeah, why not? I haven’t got much to lose. I’ve got a good summer ahead of me. I’ve just sold a business. So I [00:04:45] did, and I went to study it and fell in love and then carried on. So. [00:04:50] And that’s how I basically fell into therapy.

Payman Langroudi: Make that sound very simple, very simple. But it’s. [00:04:55]

Stina Sanders : Not.

Payman Langroudi: The the, the the progression of a company from nothing to [00:05:00] sold. How many years was that?

Stina Sanders : Six. I think it was pretty quick. Yeah. [00:05:05]

Rhona Eskander: So what was the premise of Huggle? Because I’d actually never heard of it.

Stina Sanders : So Huggle was nearly do you [00:05:10] remember happen where it was like you.

Rhona Eskander: You crossed paths?

Stina Sanders : Yeah. We never quite liked that because it was just [00:05:15] sort of like, oh, okay, great. You happened to walk past someone, and obviously the whole premise was that it was, you know, [00:05:20] being at the right place at the right time. So we were like, let’s take it back. And actually, uh, [00:05:25] look at the locations and people’s interests and common ground. So actually you would [00:05:30] match on similarities and going back to sort of shared values, which is again, very important [00:05:35] when you meet somebody, you know, if you don’t have much in common, you don’t really have a great starting point. So [00:05:40] our whole sort of thing was the locations that you go to, um, the [00:05:45] things that you’re interested in. And that was essentially you obviously did the whole swiping thing, but you were matching or [00:05:50] connected with people who were similar or like minded to you. So that was yeah, [00:05:55] we actually started it as a friendship app originally.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve always said there’s a need for that because I travel alone [00:06:00] quite a lot and sometimes, you know, like you’re there for like two, three days. And I was like, oh God. Like, I wish there was like an app [00:06:05] where you could connect with people to, like, take you out, show you around and just have like a really nice time without a [00:06:10] hook-up. Do you see what I mean? Or like or even like just to meet even like girls, you know, and that kind of thing. Yeah. [00:06:15] So I always thought there was that niche.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you’ve talked to loads of couples, right? Yes. People in relationships. [00:06:20] And you know what you said about shared interests, do you think? You know, I [00:06:25] think when you look at couples, sometimes it’s a very opposite.

Stina Sanders : Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And opposites attract [00:06:30] and all that. But what is it, what what basic premises do you find have to be the [00:06:35] same. And then what other things can be opposites.

Stina Sanders : I think that’s such a that’s a really [00:06:40] good question. It’s very nuanced as well. The answer I think you for any [00:06:45] relationship to sort of work and move forward, I do think you have to [00:06:50] have shared values and shared morals, I just don’t. Yes, you can love Taylor [00:06:55] Swift and then your partner can absolutely hate her. Um, and that’s fine. But [00:07:00] I think it’s like the real sort of basic principles. Yeah. And, you know, [00:07:05] if you’re not on the same page with that, I think it’s very difficult to it’s not to say [00:07:10] it can’t work. And yes, opposites do attract, but I think if you really scrape [00:07:15] it down, you find actually they’re very similar in a lot of ways. And actually, [00:07:20] even to go even further psychologically, they often probably have very similar upbringings [00:07:25] too. You know, they might have come from very similar, like I said, backgrounds. Maybe one partner’s [00:07:30] household was chaotic and theirs was too. It’s it’s again, it’s what we feel [00:07:35] safe in. And the familiarity is, is that it’s the safe what we feel safe.

Rhona Eskander: Was [00:07:40] there a personal experience that sparked your passion or understanding emotional for [00:07:45] your understanding of emotional patterns and relationships?

Stina Sanders : Yes, I was in a very, [00:07:50] very abusive relationship.

Rhona Eskander: How old were.

Stina Sanders : You? I was early 20s [00:07:55] and absolutely lost myself. Like [00:08:00] I managed to say, yeah, I’m going to say it. I escaped this relationship [00:08:05] and it’s strange looking back. I really didn’t want to leave. I was completely [00:08:10] at the end of my tether, I was unwell, I have relatively clear [00:08:15] skin. I had developed acne from like all over my face. I was just physically, [00:08:20] emotionally, just drained and managed to actually just run. And [00:08:25] um, in the end, while I was out [00:08:30] of that relationship, yes, things were getting a little bit better, but I just I still wasn’t quite [00:08:35] there. So I actually took myself to therapy. Um, and it was through therapy [00:08:40] that, you know, my therapist sort of mentioned, you know, that your partner has very narcissistic traits. [00:08:45] I’d never heard of the word narcissist. You know, to me, I was like, what’s that? Um, and then he would [00:08:50] explain trauma bonding, And then he would explain, um, different dynamics and [00:08:55] relationship patterns. And, you know, for me, it was cognitive dissonance, which is basically I [00:09:00] just couldn’t quite team up with the fact that the reality was I was living in an [00:09:05] absolute nightmare, hell, but I just couldn’t face that reality. I would just minimise [00:09:10] it or rationalise it. Um, and then after that, you know, that [00:09:15] process really helped me to heal and move forward. But it was really that experience [00:09:20] was life changing for me. And I remember thinking this was years later, like I decided [00:09:25] when I went to sorry, when I decided to study it, I thought, oh my God, you know, that [00:09:30] is just so fascinating to me. And that’s why, again, I would just I wanted to go and study because [00:09:35] I wanted to be able to help other people who, like me, might be in that situation. And [00:09:40] that was kind of it, really.

Rhona Eskander: Well, I’m glad that you’ve brought us onto that topic, right. Because I think [00:09:45] that so many people, including Payman, think that impulse Reactions [00:09:50] are what dictate the truth. And I have quite a similar journey to you as well. And [00:09:55] I don’t believe that those feelings, for example, I said that [00:10:00] I would never want to lose myself in a way [00:10:05] where I compromise my job. What I like, where [00:10:10] I live, all of my friends for someone else because I was almost in that position, almost. [00:10:15] And he said, well, you clearly never been in love. And I was like, no, I’ve done enough [00:10:20] work in myself, on myself to know that that addiction to the dopamine is something [00:10:25] that is self-soothing parts of myself that feel familiar, which is basically chaos [00:10:30] and that is mistaken for love. And he was like, no, because you drop everything for the [00:10:35] person you love. And I’m like, I don’t think that’s healthy. Someone that comes into your life, and this has happened [00:10:40] to me and I have been so enamoured and I feel sick and I can’t concentrate at work [00:10:45] and I’m like, do I sack it all off for this person that isn’t [00:10:50] love. Because once I’m over that situation, I’m like anything that comes into your life and causes that chaos [00:10:55] and makes you lose yourself isn’t the definition of love. He disagrees.

Stina Sanders : Oh, interesting. [00:11:00]

Payman Langroudi: Not, not. I mean, it’s more nuanced than that.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not. You literally said.

Payman Langroudi: More than that.

Rhona Eskander: And [00:11:05] I want to hear Dina’s view first, and then we’ll come back to you.

Stina Sanders : It’s like a couples counselling session.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. [00:11:10] Go on, go on. I’d like to hear. So I actually see.

Stina Sanders : A little bit of your point of view, and I obviously [00:11:15] very much see yours as well. There is compromise.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Stina Sanders : So yes, [00:11:20] you can’t lose yourself, but obviously there is a line of there [00:11:25] will be things that you might have to be a bit more flexible on. I’m not sure what that is, because obviously [00:11:30] every person’s value and expectations and where they want to go in life is different. [00:11:35] But I think as a couple you do have to meet in the middle. It can’t be like, [00:11:40] this is what I want. I’m not changing my career. I’m not doing this, you know? Yeah, because you’re probably [00:11:45] going to end up alone. Or you might meet someone that’s totally fine with that, and that’s great too. But I think [00:11:50] depending on each person, there needs to be flexibility. Otherwise you don’t [00:11:55] really have a partnership.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, there’s look, there’s love, there’s in love, there’s falling in love, there’s [00:12:00] lust. All I was saying to you is falling in love, by definition, is [00:12:05] illogical to the point that you would do anything for it. That’s all I was saying. [00:12:10]

Rhona Eskander: I kind of see what you mean. But I also don’t necessarily agree, because I’ve also done years of therapy [00:12:15] and coaching and everything, and I’ve recognised that that notion [00:12:20] of, like you said, where you can’t eat sleep and you can’t temporary. Huh? Yeah. [00:12:25] It’s temporary, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the person maybe.

Payman Langroudi: You’re wise enough to know.

Rhona Eskander: The thing is, is that I. [00:12:30] And I’m sure Steven is the same. I understood that that initial feeling of chaos [00:12:35] never worked out for me. Okay? It never worked out for me, so I had to switch [00:12:40] it up. So when I started asking the important questions. Okay, initial attraction is [00:12:45] important, of course, but just because you go on a date and you don’t feel like there [00:12:50] is a difference between a charmer and someone that is actually going to be committed to you, you can go on a date and feel [00:12:55] that someone’s pursuit of you so feverishly is like, oh my God, this person is so into me. [00:13:00] They could be into you for the night. They could take you away for the weekend, and you could be totally like, wow, this [00:13:05] is the love of my life. He’s just taken me to Capri. Been there, done that for the weekend. He’s obviously into me. And then he could disappear. [00:13:10] For me, that’s not consistency.

Payman Langroudi: Most women sort of don’t go [00:13:15] for guys who are that much into them in a way. Right.

Rhona Eskander: If they’re really into them themselves, no. But if you [00:13:20] are very attracted to someone, you’ve even said that to me. I feel like you’re starting [00:13:25] to understand, but I don’t think that necessarily is the basis for a healthy partnership. And [00:13:30] I think that actually someone that makes you feel calm and safe, just [00:13:35] because that is not labelled as sexy in society is something [00:13:40] that we should rephrase, of course.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s take let’s take it to the other extreme where [00:13:45] Indians have arranged marriages with someone completely suitable. Yeah, [00:13:50] and? And you’re right. It works often. Yeah, because the person [00:13:55] does it.

Rhona Eskander: I’d like to answer that often.

Payman Langroudi: Often it works.

Stina Sanders : Sometimes it’s hard because it’s like [00:14:00] you look at, you know. Yes, it can, but there are obviously.

Payman Langroudi: Issues. [00:14:05]

Stina Sanders : Issues there obviously cases where it shows, it really doesn’t. You know, people are in very abusive, toxic relationships, [00:14:10] you know.

Payman Langroudi: But you see what I mean? That what you’re suggesting is that it’s a very logical process. [00:14:15]

Rhona Eskander: I didn’t say it’s logical. No. What I’m saying is, is that you do not have to have the feeling where you have to compromise [00:14:20] everything you want just because you’re impressed by a person. I’m not saying [00:14:25] compromise in general. I’m saying initial attraction is important. But what is important? To ask all the questions. If I met [00:14:30] somebody and over a week I’m like, he ticks all my boxes. Okay, let’s just say [00:14:35] for argument’s sake. So I look, he’s like, he’s got a sexy career. He’s super hot. Okay, ten out of [00:14:40] ten in looks, he’s saying all the right things. Okay, then after a week, I call you up and [00:14:45] I’m like, steena, he’s the one. Okay. And then you’re like, okay. And then after a month, I say to you, do [00:14:50] you know what I’ve decided a month. I’ve decided I’m going to pack my bags, I’m going to quit [00:14:55] my job, and I’m going to move to where he lives. Okay. That was the example I gave you. I’m going to move to [00:15:00] where he lives. Okay. I don’t have any friends there, but I don’t care because I know that he’s the one. Cool. [00:15:05] Then after two months, you decide I’m going to get pregnant, right? Because. And that’s [00:15:10] the thing I would say to you as a friend. Because he’s just like, well, you’ve clearly never been in love. Like that sort of person. [00:15:15] Like, no, I would say there is no harm in waiting and asking the right questions. I’d [00:15:20] say the.

Payman Langroudi: Same. Yeah, I’d say the same.

Rhona Eskander: No. And then that’s the whole. Because you’ve clearly never been in love to just impulsively do [00:15:25] that.

Stina Sanders : Have you done.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, exactly.

Stina Sanders : I thought you could say this is my story. [00:15:30]

Rhona Eskander: He said that he’s had the experience where he’s. He couldn’t stop thinking about someone [00:15:35] for 24/7. So he was like, I get that feeling. We’ve all had that feeling. Totally. [00:15:40] But what I’m saying is it’s important with when you do the work, when you truly do the [00:15:45] work on yourself, which clearly you are, you’re dedicated. You have a degree in this. You understand? [00:15:50] Asking the questions is a really important part of the decision making process.

Stina Sanders : Yes, asking the questions [00:15:55] and also taking your time.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you.

Stina Sanders : Because when we always [00:16:00] meet somebody for the first time, right now, we are all presenting our best selves because that’s what we do as [00:16:05] humans. You know, we want to be liked. We want to be included. This is how we bond and this is how we build our [00:16:10] relationships. But obviously, eventually that masks for all of us will slip, [00:16:15] you know? And there will be things that you noticed about me that you hadn’t noticed before. Or there’s an annoying [00:16:20] habit that I do and you’re like, oh my God. And do you know what? Whether that’s right or wrong, [00:16:25] you have to see it through. You have to see it out and say to yourself, and that sorry, what I’m [00:16:30] trying to say is it just takes time. You can’t just run in and say, and I and I think [00:16:35] it’s so important to be so grounded in the early [00:16:40] stages of dating. I always say up to a year personally.

Payman Langroudi: Personally I agree I’d agree. [00:16:45] I agree.

Rhona Eskander: I agree.

Stina Sanders : Now he’s.

Rhona Eskander: Agreeing, now.

Payman Langroudi: I agree. [00:16:50] In that if you came to me with that story. My advice to you would be, you know, wake up.

Stina Sanders : Yes. And [00:16:55] I would also question if somebody was doing that because. And FYI, I have done that same. [00:17:00]

Rhona Eskander: So have.

Stina Sanders : I. Oh I would say where is that coming from. Thank you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:17:05] probably some sort of deficit.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not it’s not the feeling of like I’m so in love. I do everything for that person. It’s coming [00:17:10] from a deficit.

Stina Sanders : It’s coming from a lack.

Rhona Eskander: So yeah, but that brings me on to one other [00:17:15] important question. So what did your own healing look like then? Because where you went from narcissistic [00:17:20] I obviously understand. Did you find doing the app quite triggering or did you find it quite healing? [00:17:25] Because obviously that was before you’d studied. You already had done therapy, but not psychology psychotherapy. [00:17:30] So for you, where did the actual where do you feel like there was a real shift? Not [00:17:35] a sort of like I’m great positive, like thoughts, honestly.

Stina Sanders : After [00:17:40] that abusive relationship. I continued to have many more unhealthy, [00:17:45] toxic relationships. It wasn’t just one. Okay, I now understand [00:17:50] that that was dangerous. I’m healed, thank God. I’ll never look for [00:17:55] another narcissist again. Unfortunately for me, because I hadn’t done the work myself, [00:18:00] I had gone to therapy. I had read many books, I had understood it. I knew all the [00:18:05] terms like gaslighting and all this stuff. And, you know, I was like, I was a [00:18:10] red flag spotter, you know, I could see them literally walking down the pavement. But did that stop me from getting into [00:18:15] toxic, unhealthy dynamics? No. For many years, even after my very abusive, [00:18:20] I’m not trying to scale them all. But after that first experience of an abusive [00:18:25] relationship, I was just finding myself in and out of them all the time. And it wasn’t [00:18:30] until I went and studied. And when you study to become a therapist, a [00:18:35] lot of people do not know this. It’s not a case of just reading the book and listening. You [00:18:40] have to do your own work. So and it was very intimidating. And I hated [00:18:45] every minute of it because you could not hide. And I had like tutors [00:18:50] and lecturers who would literally hold the mirror up and say, are you seeing this? Because this is what [00:18:55] you are. And it was just so like, I mean, that is a conversation for another time.

Rhona Eskander: Now, one [00:19:00] of my really good friends, she’s studying therapy at the moment. We’ve had her on the podcast and [00:19:05] um, she’s going like she’s doing a masters and then she’s gonna probably do a PhD, but like, I can see like the huge [00:19:10] shift in her as a person. And like she says, she’s like, you don’t understand how intense it is. [00:19:15] Like the group therapy, the like personal therapy, the like the dealing with like clients as [00:19:20] part of your training. Like she she says completely. The mirror is constantly held up.

Stina Sanders : And the [00:19:25] group therapy is so true. You’re in. You’re in like a group therapy setting with your [00:19:30] peers and your tutor, and people will come for you. You know, you might have said something that triggered [00:19:35] them, but the idea is you process it together and you have it out. And I never really [00:19:40] liked conflict. I was always like quite scared about it. And for me, one of my survival responses is [00:19:45] to fawn is to people. Please. Bloody hell. Like that course taught me not to do that. [00:19:50] Have it out, have the conversation, have the difficult conversations. So anyway, it was it was therapy where I learned, [00:19:55] hang on a minute, I’ve got not only an anxious attachment style, which I knew I knew [00:20:00] anyway, but actually I’ve got a lot of cool beliefs about myself. I didn’t like myself, I thought I [00:20:05] was unlovable, I thought people would always leave again. That’s from childhood and [00:20:10] also experiences. But I had to dig deep and do the work. I can’t even remember [00:20:15] what your question was.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say? Would you say you or people sometimes [00:20:20] project something that then someone like a narcissist can see and then prey [00:20:25] on?

[TRANSITION]: Oh yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So what kind of what kind of behaviours are they?

[TRANSITION]: This [00:20:30] is the thing.

Stina Sanders : Because anyone can end up being a victim of an abusive relationship. You know, there’s [00:20:35] loads of people out there.

Rhona Eskander: You don’t even know. I had it terribly with someone I was with. But go on. [00:20:40] It really can happen to the strongest women. And like. Yeah.

Stina Sanders : Like no one [00:20:45] is safe. Because actually, it’s, you know, it could be something as simple as you’ve [00:20:50] got a great career and you’re confident and just even the way you walk in a room, they’ll latch [00:20:55] on to it because they want a bit of that. Or it might be you are a very shy and [00:21:00] meek person, and again, they’ll latch on to it. It’s I don’t think there’s just one thing. I think [00:21:05] it’s just more of how they can kind of worm themselves [00:21:10] in. And I think that they can just do that with all the telltale signs.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, for someone who might be in a relationship [00:21:15] right now who feels something’s off in it. What are the telltale [00:21:20] signs that you’re you’re in a relationship with someone like that? I mean, the first sort of pedestal. [00:21:25] You. Yeah. Give love and take it away.

Stina Sanders : You’ve actually said it. It’s how you feel [00:21:30] in the relationship. So often our bodies tell us [00:21:35] before our minds do. So when I mentioned I when I was in my first abusive relationship, [00:21:40] I had acne and eczema and it was like my body was screaming for me [00:21:45] to get out, you know? And I didn’t make the connection at all. If I look back [00:21:50] unconsciously, I did. I felt uncomfortable with certain things that they did or they said, but I just [00:21:55] completely minimised, dismissed it, ignored it, rationalised it, made excuses. Um, [00:22:00] but yeah, I think telltale signs are within yourself. You know, that niggle that you feel where [00:22:05] you go, oh, I didn’t like that. Or oh, I have a gut intuition that something’s not right [00:22:10] here. We just tend to ignore ourselves all the time. And it’s so frustrating [00:22:15] because I obviously for me, I’ve been there. But when I can see people are clearly ignoring their [00:22:20] gut.

Rhona Eskander: But I think it’s because also like the familiarity familiarity piece like so I [00:22:25] had a.

Payman Langroudi: Fear of being alone. Maybe.

Rhona Eskander: No. Not necessarily. I mean, like, for example, I had a really [00:22:30] healthy relationship, uh, in my 20s, my first boyfriend I met at Leeds, um, [00:22:35] it was interesting because naturally, I think from a very young age I [00:22:40] fancied narcissists. I had my own sort of traumas and insecurities about [00:22:45] being Middle Eastern, not being accepted, growing up in a very white public school environment, being the only kind of foreigner. [00:22:50] And so like Leeds really perpetuated that. And every time I got rejected by these, like archetypal, [00:22:55] like public school boys, there was this like massive self-worth thing. And then my, my [00:23:00] first boyfriend was like a kind of like a rebound. And I was like, okay, like, I’ll go for this. We ended [00:23:05] up being together for like 6 or 7 years. It was, I would say, incredibly healthy, but [00:23:10] I think I always still yearned the narcissist because I think that I was so desperate to be seen. [00:23:15] And I think there’s a difference also between being a narcissist and having narcissistic tendencies. [00:23:20] And what I’ve learned is, is that I think that I have narcissistic tendencies just because I like, enjoy being in [00:23:25] the public eye and things like that doesn’t make me a bad person. There’s some self-awareness. I bring myself down [00:23:30] to that. But then I always was really attracted to someone that was like out there in the public [00:23:35] famous like really sort of, I guess masculine, alpha [00:23:40] like masculine toxicity that what you’d label now. But, um, [00:23:45] I then went on to just continuously go after these [00:23:50] narcissists and every time I thought it would be different.

Rhona Eskander: And then one day I looked in the mirror and I was [00:23:55] like, um, this is a me problem. And this feeling of feeling [00:24:00] sick, not being able to sleep, this feeling, it’s not normal. But it was just like this familiarity [00:24:05] of chaos that I really enjoyed. And it took a lot of time and work because then you [00:24:10] start to realise that other qualities are attractive. And when I was in a relationship [00:24:15] that was very narcissistic, what I realised was is the person that I was with pretended [00:24:20] to be someone else for three months. Then the real him came out and I was like, I thought [00:24:25] I knew you were like, you’re so desperate, like you said to like, cling on, cling on, cling on, cling on. And [00:24:30] it’s just really disorienting Disorientating because you [00:24:35] just don’t understand how you’ve ended up in that situation. So and I would [00:24:40] say, unfortunately, I think social media is providing more and more of a platform for [00:24:45] narcissists because by nature they love being out there and putting themselves out there. [00:24:50] And I think the messages that they perpetuate to the audiences reinforces [00:24:55] toxicity, especially to a lot of women. Like, I don’t know if you’re noticing this, because [00:25:00] sometimes I’ll look at content and I look at the comments from other women and I’m like, you guys are going to be like single forever. [00:25:05] Like, I’m not saying that in a patronising way, but there’s this, like, they feel like they’re entitled to [00:25:10] this like idea of perfectionism that’s portrayed online. Do you know what I mean?

Stina Sanders : I do understand. [00:25:15]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I’m like, this is not healthy. It’s dangerous.

Stina Sanders : I think social media is definitely [00:25:20] amped up. I mean, we all, by the way, we all have narcissistic traits, whether we like to believe it or not. It’s [00:25:25] again, it’s a survival thing. You know, it’s I don’t want to call it healthy narcissism, but let’s call [00:25:30] it that for the podcast. You know, that’s our drive. You know. We’ve got to be successful [00:25:35] and stay alive. You know that. You know, that’s our ego. That’s our kind of ramping [00:25:40] up every day. Obviously, the unhealthy narcissism is when it’s projected onto others and, you [00:25:45] know, used in horrible ways. But, um, don’t forget, we’ve also got things like covert [00:25:50] narcissists who aren’t online. They’re everywhere. You know, it’s it’s, um, people [00:25:55] say, oh, these are the signs of a narcissist. But actually there are different types of narcissists. [00:26:00] I think there’s about last I read, it was like nine versions of different narcissists, [00:26:05] and some are very shy, quiet.

Payman Langroudi: What makes a narcissist [00:26:10] is what background? What childhood?

Rhona Eskander: Um, yeah. What traits would you say?

Stina Sanders : You know, there’s not [00:26:15] really an answer for it. It’s, um. It’s believed childhood. So childhood trauma. [00:26:20] Um, it could just be your personality. But a lot of people [00:26:25] believe it’s to do with the past and their upbringing and how they feel about themselves, [00:26:30] because they’re just insecure And obviously don’t forget you’ve got narcissistic personality disorder, which you know [00:26:35] is is a disorder. And then you’ve obviously got someone that has very high narcissistic traits. And again, it’s [00:26:40] on that’s on a spectrum. Um, but yeah, they’re not entirely sure. And, [00:26:45] and it’s one of those things where I don’t know if you’ve seen on TikTok, they’re quite I actually follow [00:26:50] one, a guy called Li um, he is, um, a narcissist, and he talks about sort [00:26:55] of his recovery and stuff because he is apparently in therapy and, and working on himself. [00:27:00] Um, but the thing is, not many people are going to admit that they’re a narcissist, are they? So [00:27:05] it’s not really. Um, but.

Rhona Eskander: It’s funny because, you see, I mean, I’m not going to mention who it is in the podcast, but I [00:27:10] went on a date with someone years ago from Raya, and he was like, he’s a very prominent [00:27:15] public figure. I wouldn’t say he’s even good looking. Raya. It’s a dating app. And it’s literally [00:27:20] it’s literally narcissist dating app. And like, he was not even good looking. But I was like, loved [00:27:25] him because of all his sort of like talks that he did tell you later off record and [00:27:30] I. When I went on the date, I was like, this guy is actually unbearable and was a narcissist, and [00:27:35] everything he portrayed online was nothing like he was in real life. And I was like, this [00:27:40] is really interesting for me to observe because, again, and he was so disengaged. [00:27:45] And I had a friend of mine who’s also a massive podcaster, and she’d also [00:27:50] gone on a date with someone that also had a big platform and talked a lot about relationships. And she said, like, the date was horrendous [00:27:55] and like the way he was engaging with her was also like horrendous. So I think it’s like quite [00:28:00] interesting that, you know, people can also say things, but it doesn’t actually what they believe. [00:28:05]

Stina Sanders : Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And what trends are you seeing now with dating [00:28:10] apps. You know, this sort of and social media, this sort of idea that there’s always someone [00:28:15] better to.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. I mean.

Payman Langroudi: That’s.

Stina Sanders : Um.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of a new phenomenon.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, [00:28:20] totally. It’s always thinking that the grass is greener on the other side, and we end up chasing our tails, because actually, [00:28:25] the reality is it’s it’s not so true. And that’s what it boils down [00:28:30] to again, is that shared value? I think a lot of people just swipe, swipe, swipe. Oh, they’re good looking and oh, I like [00:28:35] that. Like you were saying about the Ray guy, like I like his talks. I like how he portrays himself online and we just go into [00:28:40] it and then are very disappointed because again, it takes time. And actually, I think had you [00:28:45] met him in person, I think it would be very different. Um, because you get a sense of who he is, how he’s [00:28:50] being. Um, as much as I appreciate dating apps and [00:28:55] obviously started one and see so many benefits to it, there are so many flaws with it as well. [00:29:00] You know, um, I’m quite old fashioned in, in, you know, meeting somebody and actually meeting [00:29:05] people through friends and energy. Yeah. Absolutely energy. But but actually [00:29:10] my partner who I’m with, we we knew each other through through work. But again, it’s like I think [00:29:15] it’s very I like introducing my friends to other friends and [00:29:20] doing a bit of Cilla Black. Um, because I think, you know, they’re likely to get on because [00:29:25] they like me and we probably all have similar interests or, you know, something, [00:29:30] um, you know, in common.

Payman Langroudi: So I’m meeting a lot of guys and [00:29:35] girls who are choosing to be single.

Rhona Eskander: I think gen Gen Z in general.

Stina Sanders : Right?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah, [00:29:40] yeah yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I think dating apps have a lot to do with that too.

[TRANSITION]: Probably because you get dating fatigue. [00:29:45]

Stina Sanders : Dating app fatigue.

[TRANSITION]: Yeah.

Stina Sanders : I can’t be arsed with this. And again like that constant disappointment. [00:29:50] You feel like you’re on a treadmill. It’s tiring. It’s um.

Payman Langroudi: But you understand people. Do you understand [00:29:55] people who choose to be single?

Rhona Eskander: I’m going to put my $0.02 into this. And obviously you can you can agree or disagree [00:30:00] or give your advice on it. But I think we’re all like, I think we’re the same generation. [00:30:05] Obviously you’re a little bit older, but in general, our common [00:30:10] value or what was instilled to us was very much about like building a family and having kids. Yes. [00:30:15] And I think that a lot of Gen Z women in particular don’t want children either. [00:30:20] So the need to settle down is not necessarily on their radar. [00:30:25] That’s what I think is happening as well. And I think that men then [00:30:30] we have the rise of like young boys not having good mentors, [00:30:35] good leaders because as well they’re really disgruntled that women aren’t really generally interested [00:30:40] in them. Do you know what I mean? So I think also like, we cannot avoid the fact that a lot [00:30:45] of Gen Zers and including lots that I know and I don’t kids, I don’t kids. Do you know what I mean? So there’s not [00:30:50] that sort of like, okay, I need to find someone and start a family.

Stina Sanders : Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know.

Stina Sanders : That’s just a perspective. [00:30:55] Yeah. I get that there’s a lack of urgency, isn’t there? Because it’s like, well, I don’t need to settle down. But I [00:31:00] think if we take it back to sort of caveman times, we do need to be [00:31:05] with people, whether that’s friendships romantically, because again, that’s survival, [00:31:10] isn’t it? It’s like when you’ve got your pack, you’re safe. Um, so there’s a part of me where I think it’s [00:31:15] great, and I love this movement of being, like, single and free and doing what you want to do. But I think, [00:31:20] and it’s no right or wrong. I’m not saying it’s an either way. I’m just saying [00:31:25] it’s just interesting because ultimately we will. We always need someone, whether that is friendship or [00:31:30] romantically. Yeah, we always need people.

Payman Langroudi: But are you not finding that? I find that there’s quite [00:31:35] a lot of women, for instance, who, when they do want to settle down now, can’t find anyone. [00:31:40]

Rhona Eskander: Well, I’d like to, but I think again, don’t come for me, everyone. I [00:31:45] think I do think, like, listen, like I’m a massive kind of female ally. That’s how we became [00:31:50] friends. I have so many incredible women around me. But some of the things that I’m [00:31:55] seeing, what women want in men nowadays, I’m like, you’re shooting yourself in the foot. [00:32:00]

Stina Sanders : Like, yes.

Rhona Eskander: Like so like there are things. And this is what I’m saying. Like when I see the content, they want a ten out [00:32:05] of ten.

Payman Langroudi: Look, they.

Rhona Eskander: Want it all. They want it all. They want like someone who’s six foot five, who’s [00:32:10] ripped, who’s rich, who’s kind.

Stina Sanders : Who’s finance guy. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Like [00:32:15] the thing is, is like, they want they want all of that. Yeah. [00:32:20] And listen, I think because I’ve had this conversation with a girlfriend of mine recently [00:32:25] and I said to have high standards. She was like, yeah, but like, if girls can bring it all to the table [00:32:30] then. So I’m like, I’m not saying don’t have high standards. Obviously don’t settle for someone [00:32:35] that treats you badly. But the thing is, say someone has like seven out of ten of [00:32:40] the things you want or eight out of ten, or they make you feel amazing, like, are you really not going to go? And that is [00:32:45] again, the problem with dating apps, because you might say, no, I’m not going to date this guy because he’s like five foot eight [00:32:50] or whatever, but he actually in real life he could be amazing and you would have got on with him well, in a bar and [00:32:55] that would have gone out the window.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You just got married. You’re not married?

Stina Sanders : I’m not married.

Payman Langroudi: No. You’ve never [00:33:00] been married?

Stina Sanders : No. Never been married, I mean, yet.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:33:05] but but you know, I think like if marriage is the goal. Yeah. Then kindness [00:33:10] should be the like number one by a long way and looks, [00:33:15] I mean.

Rhona Eskander: It’s I think attraction is important. But I’m going to ask you something. Why do you [00:33:20] think that a lot of people, men and women don’t put [00:33:25] kindness up there that often. I know, but why do you think that is?

Stina Sanders : I honestly [00:33:30] don’t know. Because I don’t think. I think because it’s such a basic need that they’re just like, oh, [00:33:35] well, they’re obviously going to be nice. But actually, no, people are not kind. [00:33:40] Yeah. And people are not respectful actually is another thing. Um, it is [00:33:45] so funny. I have a very good friend who I said to her, what’s your list like? And [00:33:50] when I ask people that, I’m not saying the six foot blue eyes, I’m not saying that. But [00:33:55] again, it’s to help people look at those values. And I do this with some clients as well. I sort of say, what’s important [00:34:00] to you? Let’s really break it down. And it was so funny. She’s like, needs to have a good job, [00:34:05] needs to be six foot. I said, yeah, okay. That’s fine. If that’s what you want, that’s fine. But [00:34:10] let’s how about, you know, loyalty. Oh, I didn’t think of that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. [00:34:15] Like and like you said, like reliability and like, now obviously that you’re pregnant, you realise [00:34:20] that, like, a lot of that stuff matters more than ever. The other stuff, like the way you look, probably goes [00:34:25] out the window, right? Like you’re like, I don’t care. I need someone to just turn up for me, you know, 100%.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s [00:34:30] talk dentistry. Yeah. Now, one thing I’ve noticed in dentistry.

Rhona Eskander: They like to marry each other. Joking. [00:34:35] There is.

Payman Langroudi: There is that. But. But let’s talk about women in dentistry. Yeah, women [00:34:40] in dentistry can earn loads of money. Yeah, they can. If they’re successful, [00:34:45] they can earn loads of money. And not not only dentists. I mean, I see it with hygienists [00:34:50] too often. The woman is the breadwinner, often much more often [00:34:55] than out in the street. Yeah. Now and I think that produces its own [00:35:00] set of challenges. And call me old fashioned. Yeah. But when [00:35:05] a woman earns more than a man, she has to be very careful with that. [00:35:10] It should never be brought up. Yeah. Because that’s such a, like, old [00:35:15] fashioned idea of the man is the provider. And I’d bet in dentistry, there’s a [00:35:20] much higher proportion of women who are the primary earner. And it comes with a set [00:35:25] of hassles, a set of challenges and a relationship. Have you had any [00:35:30] idea around that? Because now women are earning a lot more than they used to.

Stina Sanders : If if [00:35:35] we’re going to talk about successful women and if you are a successful woman. [00:35:40] Yeah. Insecure men are not going to touch you because it taps [00:35:45] into all their insecurities and triggers. But there are healthy men that are [00:35:50] totally secure in themselves who will big up their women and and let her fly. [00:35:55] Of course, you know.

Rhona Eskander: But from the percentage point of view, because obviously, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve got stats, I [00:36:00] don’t have stats. Do you think that, again, if successful women are like, I earn X amount. So [00:36:05] if a woman let’s for argument’s sake, let’s say she earns 100 K a year and [00:36:10] she wants a man that earns that or more. Do you think that they’re limiting their pool by a [00:36:15] lot because then they also want to be attracted to them, for example, and like be like, oh, their looks. Do [00:36:20] you like, do you feel that you are narrowing your pool? Or do you think it’s important to stick to what’s important for [00:36:25] you?

Stina Sanders : I would say it is its success. Is it [00:36:30] money or is it drive? Which one is it? Because for me, all my friends used [00:36:35] to take the piss out of me and say, oh, you just want a really successful rich man? Actually, no. While that [00:36:40] is quite nice, I actually want someone who’s driven and that has purpose and that has lust [00:36:45] for life and passion. So I think if you can. Obviously some people might just say, no, these are my. I’m sticking [00:36:50] to it. And I he needs to earn X and okay fine. But you are the pool’s going to be very [00:36:55] small there. But what matters what really truly matters is it drive. You know they [00:37:00] could be doing any job, but if they were driven and good at it and top of their game and ambitious [00:37:05] is that, you know, maybe I.

Rhona Eskander: Think again that’s like yeah. Like, listen, like I completely [00:37:10] relate to you. I’ve said this online. I’m not ashamed to say it again. I have [00:37:15] a man in finance. I decided consciously after my first boyfriend, who, who [00:37:20] was a trust fund kid and didn’t have much drive, that I wanted someone more successful [00:37:25] than me. Did I narrow the pool? Maybe. But like I did end up with a professional. But I had to give [00:37:30] an other aspects. Do you see what I mean? Because. But then it’s like his drive. And, like, now [00:37:35] he’s getting involved with my business. I was like, I’m so right. Like, this was so important to me. [00:37:40] And now, like, it shows even more because it’s the way his brain works that I [00:37:45] love.

Payman Langroudi: But yeah, but look, when we all know relationships where the man is [00:37:50] way more successful than the woman, and we all know relationships where the man uses [00:37:55] that fact. Yeah, like maybe it’s in handbags, maybe [00:38:00] it’s in whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, but those guys are dicks, right? So so so so we all agree [00:38:05] on that. Yeah. Now, when a woman earns more than a man, it’s a silly move [00:38:10] to bring it up.

Stina Sanders : You say? It’s quite understated.

Payman Langroudi: You think? I think it’s a silly move to bring it up, but it’s an even [00:38:15] sillier move. It’s an even bigger thing because the man’s traditional role is the provider. So [00:38:20] if a woman brings it up and, you know, in a deep argument, you could bring that up right [00:38:25] now, I know maybe 8 or 9 couples where the woman’s earning more or [00:38:30] I mean, as you say, it’s not just about the number, it’s about the drive and all of that. And some of [00:38:35] them do manage it, but many don’t.

Stina Sanders : In terms of what their as in how they how it makes [00:38:40] their like the relationship dynamic dynamic.

Rhona Eskander: There’s resentment I think.

Stina Sanders : Right.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:38:45] think it’s a particularly sensitive subject for a man not to be the provider, you know. [00:38:50]

Stina Sanders : Yeah. Maybe it’s a maybe it’s a sensitive subject for everyone. Money. Money is [00:38:55] quite the root of all evil, isn’t it?

Rhona Eskander: I think Stena’s right. Like, it just depends on what you want and what you [00:39:00] value. And maybe because also like you’re Iranian as well, that plays into it like from a cultural point of view. Like [00:39:05] we I’m not going to mention her, but you know, like there is a very successful dentist who earns a lot more than her husband [00:39:10] always has done. They have three children, and they made the conscious decision together that he’s going to bring up the kids. [00:39:15] And she and they love that dynamic and he’s an amazing dad and they’re really comfortable. [00:39:20] It’s not the dynamic I want, but that’s what she wants and they have that open conversation. So it’s again about like, are [00:39:25] you choosing someone? What matters more to you? I’ve had friends that have compromised on money because looks [00:39:30] is the most important thing to them, sadly. But it’s so important for them to be with a guy that looks like a model [00:39:35] that they will like happily pay for everything. Because that is what like again, that wouldn’t feed my soul. [00:39:40] But that’s important to them. And as long as they know they’re in that dynamic, it is them. Which also [00:39:45] I want to bring on to, because I think it’s an important topic to talk about trauma bonds, because this might be a new [00:39:50] term to people. Yeah. What is a trauma bond and how do you know if you’re in it.

Stina Sanders : So trauma bond [00:39:55] is an emotional attachment which you often see in abusive relationships [00:40:00] or toxic patterns. And it basically is formed through intermittent [00:40:05] reinforcement. So when you’re in an abusive or unhealthy toxic relationship, it’s [00:40:10] not always abusive. It’s not always toxic, it’s not always unhealthy. And that’s where it hooks [00:40:15] you in because you get a glimmer of, oh, affection or love or it’s peaceful [00:40:20] and it’s nice and you think, ah, yes. And then all of a sudden it hits you with harm, abuse, [00:40:25] lying. What unhealthy behaviours. So it’s very unpredictable. And this [00:40:30] up and down, these highs and lows. Unfortunately that releases dopamine [00:40:35] in us. And we can get quite addicted to to that sort of cycle. And that’s a trauma bond. So you [00:40:40] end up just becoming so stuck in it because you can’t really see the wood from the [00:40:45] trees. And so yeah, you just stay in it. It’s essentially an emotional attachment. [00:40:50]

Rhona Eskander: Can a trauma bond be beneficial to both parties. And I’ll tell you I’ll tell you why I say that. [00:40:55] Because I believe I have a friend and that her and her partner and a trauma bond. But it works both ways [00:41:00] because he’s traumatised from his previous relationships. And he was, I [00:41:05] would say, kind of abused by his previous girlfriends and relationships. Um, so he had the [00:41:10] narcissistic girlfriend and so forth. And then she also had like a failed marriage and [00:41:15] I feel like they found each other when they were both really lost. So I feel like it’s a kind of beneficial trauma [00:41:20] bond. Does that make sense? You know, like they really need each other. But is that contradiction like you can’t [00:41:25] have a positive trauma bond if that makes sense.

Stina Sanders : That’s just bonding over trauma. Yeah. Bonding over. [00:41:30]

Rhona Eskander: Trauma.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. But a trauma bond is when you’re when you’re actually in a very [00:41:35] unhealthy relationship. And it’s that up and down. And we if and [00:41:40] I have been in it many times it’s just you when you get the good [00:41:45] the highs. Oh my God that sense of relief of like finally you know. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Oh they [00:41:50] do love me.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. And then all of a sudden it’s taken away from you. And like you said earlier, you do you will do anything [00:41:55] to get back to what you had. Yeah. Um, I can always tell when someone, when a [00:42:00] client is in a trauma bond relationship, um, or it’s trauma bonded, they will always [00:42:05] say to me when it’s good, it’s good, but when it’s bad, it’s bad. And [00:42:10] that for me, I’m like, oh, sure, my bond.

Rhona Eskander: Why do people mistake chaos [00:42:15] for intense love?

Stina Sanders : Why do people mistake chaos for intense love? Because [00:42:20] more often than not, it is to do with what they’re used [00:42:25] to. So again, if you had a very chaotic or maybe an abusive upbringing [00:42:30] or an unpredictable upbringing, then if you’re in a relationship that’s chaotic [00:42:35] and predictable, that feels very safe because it’s familiar. Um, also [00:42:40] your own core beliefs, if you think that you’re not good enough and you end up in something [00:42:45] like that. Again, what we were saying about the grass is greener. You just think, well, that’s not true. I’m going to stay in [00:42:50] this because this is as good as it gets. So yeah, we can kind of kid ourselves into thinking, no, this [00:42:55] is love when it’s really not.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, I’m going to go on to a little bit of a detour. This [00:43:00] is an interesting one for me. You posted something recently which I really enjoyed [00:43:05] and it said even ChatGPT is sick about hearing him, babe. Did you see that? It’s [00:43:10] so funny. And what I’m seeing a lot of from people that I follow [00:43:15] online. And also my friends that are psychotherapists is that people really believe that ChatGPT [00:43:20] is better or a replacement as therapy. I would like [00:43:25] to know as a professional, if you believe this is true, what you feel as a therapist [00:43:30] about AI when it comes to therapy, whether you think people are hearing the [00:43:35] right answers. Does it have this? I just want to have a chat about all of that.

Stina Sanders : Oh my [00:43:40] God, this is a long. By the way, I love ChatGPT and I even use it [00:43:45] as a therapist. However, I know what [00:43:50] to write as a therapist, so I’m careful in sort of what I input. [00:43:55] And I’m also mindful with what it says. And this is this is where it’s it’s [00:44:00] an issue because if you’re just saying help me and it comes back with very basic and [00:44:05] sometimes very good solutions, it’s still not taking into account your own [00:44:10] experiences, your beliefs, Your past, your wounds, your all [00:44:15] of it. It’s not taking in the bigger picture because it doesn’t know you. You might you could input [00:44:20] it the data. And yeah, it could probably help here and there. And I think for some things it’s amazing. And [00:44:25] actually I think the future when it comes to AI and therapy is it will likely team together. [00:44:30] I don’t know how. I just think it will. You know, there’s plenty of, um, online therapy [00:44:35] services now where, um, you can have a therapy session with somebody and the [00:44:40] AI will pop up and it will say, oh, he’s looking a bit sad today. Maybe point out his [00:44:45] body language. I know these things exist, and they’re they’re amazing. But, um, at [00:44:50] the end of the day, the therapeutic relationship between patient and therapist [00:44:55] is what makes therapy powerful. It’s what helps us to heal. And I don’t [00:45:00] believe AI is quite there yet because we need to be with humans. We need to have that human [00:45:05] understanding to be seen, to be heard. Yes, I can give us top lines. Yes, [00:45:10] it can give us solutions. But it’s not the same as being with a human and sitting. [00:45:15]

Payman Langroudi: Not yet.

Stina Sanders : Not yet. But it might do one day.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think ChatGPT can be [00:45:20] dangerous if it’s used for therapeutic needs?

Stina Sanders : Yes, absolutely. Oh, completely. [00:45:25] Well, you hear all these horror stories where somebody has taken their own life because ChatGPT [00:45:30] told them to. What? Yes. It’s not that regulated. And I think this is the [00:45:35] issue. And that’s what I was saying to you. I didn’t mean to sound like a know it all. And I know what to sort of [00:45:40] say because I’m, you know, someone who’s incredibly vulnerable. Chatgpt could send [00:45:45] them completely down a rabbit hole and and. Yeah, it’s it’s it can be dangerous, [00:45:50] but also it depending on the situation, it can be also really great. It can be really beneficial. [00:45:55] It can highlight things that you didn’t know about yourself or knew what to do. And so [00:46:00] I think.

Payman Langroudi: But there are good and bad therapists as well. Right.

Stina Sanders : Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: God.

Stina Sanders : So yes. [00:46:05]

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t have to be AI. That’s the bad therapy.

Stina Sanders : No. And oh my God, When [00:46:10] choosing a therapist, make sure they’re accredited.

Payman Langroudi: What would you say is the the thing [00:46:15] that’s most important? Would you really, literally be the chemistry between you and the therapist?

Stina Sanders : Definitely. [00:46:20] Always. Nine times out of ten, yeah, the relationship is the most important because if you don’t [00:46:25] feel safe with your therapist, you don’t feel respected. Or I had a therapy session recently, [00:46:30] actually, I was I was trying out something I’d never had, I had never experienced as [00:46:35] a therapist. I went booked in this session. This woman, I have never felt so [00:46:40] judged. And bear in mind, she had degrees all up on her wall behind her. She [00:46:45] was very well qualified and she asked me out of the 50 minutes, [00:46:50] how do you feel? And I bloody told her. And I said, yeah, I did. I said, I feel incredibly judged. [00:46:55] And she said, well, what do you mean? And I said, I’ll tell you what I mean. And I laid it out and [00:47:00] the old me would never have done that, but I thought, you know what? I’m in the field. And actually you need to be told, [00:47:05] because I get someone more vulnerable who doesn’t have the understanding of how therapy works might [00:47:10] have just taken it, you know. She was talking about my old. I used to be a [00:47:15] glamour model, and I was talking about that. And she, she, she [00:47:20] was very, like, disturbed by it, you know, because that was her own biases and her own beliefs. [00:47:25] And you know what? That’s fine. But leave that outside the door. You know, there’s loads of people [00:47:30] that I’ve worked with where I don’t agree with things or, you know, we have completely, completely [00:47:35] different beliefs or whatever, but you don’t do that as a therapist. There’s so many bad therapists [00:47:40] out there. It’s very.

Rhona Eskander: Scary. I’ve been through so many, and the problem is really stuck with [00:47:45] some way too long because I was like, oh, maybe it’s just like the way they are, and maybe it’s just me. And I was like, oh my God. And [00:47:50] then when I found.

Payman Langroudi: I knew what it really was.

Rhona Eskander: And then when I found Ella, I was like, oh my God, yeah, this is so [00:47:55] easy.

Stina Sanders : And it’s your relationship with her. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So and I think, I think, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Modelling [00:48:00] right is all about the way you look.

Stina Sanders : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas what you’re doing [00:48:05] now is all about what’s in your head. Yeah. And that’s a that’s a great thing, right?

Stina Sanders : It’s [00:48:10] the narcissist side of me.

Payman Langroudi: But it’s a great thing, right? It’s a great [00:48:15] thing because when you talk to models, a lot of times they’re really frustrated with the fact that the way they look [00:48:20] is the only thing that.

Stina Sanders : Anyone’s interested in. Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But also I’ve found [00:48:25] interactions. There’s a lot of unhealthy toxicity going on with models. [00:48:30]

Stina Sanders : As in in their in how they are feeling about.

Payman Langroudi: Themselves, [00:48:35] maybe the rejection of castings.

Stina Sanders : And.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s like a tough [00:48:40] life.

Stina Sanders : Oh my god. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because it sounds like such a glamorous life right? No.

Stina Sanders : It’s horrendous. [00:48:45] It’s like I remember going to a casting. I’m quite athletic and like, I’ve got quite, you [00:48:50] know, I’ve got muscles. And I remember going in and it was six men [00:48:55] on a, um, on a bench, on a stand or whatever. And they went and they’re talking about me [00:49:00] as if I’m not even in the room. I’m standing as far as I am to you. And they’re going. Her legs are too fat. [00:49:05] I was seven In stone.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Stina Sanders : What? It’s just so toxic. [00:49:10] And I can laugh at it now. But, you know, I went home and I cried. But unfortunately, you do [00:49:15] develop this really thick skin. But. But having said that, I still remember that. [00:49:20] I remember how they made me feel. It’s really. Yeah. Just so toxic. So [00:49:25] toxic. I’m glad to be out of that.

Rhona Eskander: No. Completely. [00:49:30] So I want to go on a little bit onto, um, [00:49:35] self-awareness. Right. So have there been moments when [00:49:40] you felt like you were losing yourself? And how did you come back from that? Even with your new career [00:49:45] and your new your kind of new journey?

Stina Sanders : Yeah. So many. There’s been so [00:49:50] many times I’ve completely lost myself. And unfortunately it has been often to do with relationships [00:49:55] and yeah, just forgetting. Forgetting [00:50:00] kind of my self-worth and what’s important to me. And, um, has. [00:50:05]

Rhona Eskander: That shifted with the baby?

Stina Sanders : Yes. Oh my God. Do you know what I was saying [00:50:10] to my mum the other day? I’ve always had relatively good boundaries. I mean, I [00:50:15] communicate for a living, but I’m quite good at sort of putting down my lines. But [00:50:20] I would always have this from being a certified people pleaser. Back in the day, I always [00:50:25] felt guilty sort of putting my boundaries in or communicating. There’d always be a part of me where I go, I know this [00:50:30] is right, but I feel a little bit bad about doing it. Whereas now the pregnancy is like, no, [00:50:35] that’s it. So leave it. Yeah, but it’s not me being horrible or not flexible. It’s just that’s [00:50:40] how I. It’s it’s again, it’s a protection thing of, you know, I’m not just protecting me. I’m [00:50:45] protecting somebody else. So it’s like this mother instinct overcomes.

Rhona Eskander: I think hormones are massively [00:50:50] like downplayed and misunderstood. And I think, again, that’s the problem with the medical system. [00:50:55] I had a doctor on this podcast that we talked about medical misogyny, [00:51:00] um, and how actually it happens all the time. Medical gaslighting and [00:51:05] medical misogyny. Because if it was men that had to deal with the hormones and what we go [00:51:10] through, so much more research would have gone into it. And she’s actually a menopause expert. So she [00:51:15] said that like such little funding goes towards female hormones and like you said, like [00:51:20] the cycles that women have to go through, you know, premenstrual with babies, [00:51:25] menopause, perimenopause. Things change so drastically. And I think it’s really important. [00:51:30] It has a huge impact on your mental health. Yes. Um, I suffer [00:51:35] from PMDD, which I really I become a different person. And I told my [00:51:40] therapist and I was like, I just it’s like I honestly become upset [00:51:45] and suicidal and sad. And then, like, as soon as my cycle, my period starts, I [00:51:50] feel better. Are you seeing more people recognising as well that PMDD is a massive [00:51:55] part of their mental health journey?

Stina Sanders : I’m seeing that everywhere, even [00:52:00] in personal with personal trainers, they’re really taking in our sort of cycle [00:52:05] a bit more important because, you know, when you’re ovulating, I think that’s the I can never [00:52:10] say the word. Thank you. Yeah. Get my words out. So yeah, [00:52:15] there’s a much better understanding now because for years it was kind of like, well, get on with it, you know? Um, [00:52:20] yeah. For sure. You, you definitely have to take in. [00:52:25] And again, this is something else that I couldn’t probably do unless you told [00:52:30] it. Again, it’s about inputting the right data. You know, you have to take the person as [00:52:35] everything from spiritually, emotionally, mentally, physically, um, [00:52:40] so much that plays into who we are and what we think.

Rhona Eskander: And if you are [00:52:45] somebody that suffers with hormonal imbalances and PMDD, what would you suggest.

Stina Sanders : For [00:52:50] just in general.

Rhona Eskander: To deal with that.

Stina Sanders : Self-care? Yeah, always first. [00:52:55] And obviously talk to your GP and make sure, you know, there’s things that that there [00:53:00] might be some things that they can give you or help you with. But self-care first? Always.

Rhona Eskander: Are [00:53:05] you pro or against people taking medication like antidepressants?

Stina Sanders : I [00:53:10] am. If you want to do it and pro it. Yeah, I think I have nothing against it because [00:53:15] I have seen I have seen people again have their lives changed just by simply taking a tablet. [00:53:20] And I think that’s much better than sitting at home all day crying yourself to sleep. In my [00:53:25] opinion.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that it’s important for people to take medication and have it alongside [00:53:30] talking therapy?

Stina Sanders : Definitely, definitely. And again, and exercise. [00:53:35] So, um, there’s an amazing book you’ve probably heard of it called The Body Keeps.

Rhona Eskander: The.

Stina Sanders : Score. [00:53:40]

Rhona Eskander: Have you read it?

Payman Langroudi: No, but you mentioned it.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, you must read it. It’s fantastic. It’s [00:53:45] brilliant. And he found that even talking therapy isn’t enough. [00:53:50] We have to do yoga. They actually found yoga was one of the best things you can do alongside talking [00:53:55] therapy. So it’s how I look at it is it’s like a pie, like a little pie. And there’s different sections you need [00:54:00] to have. Well, a better metaphor is, is a chair. You know, if you’ve [00:54:05] got one leg that’s that’s broken and you’re feeling a bit wobbly, we all need each part, each [00:54:10] area of our life, sturdy and stable. You can’t just rely on one leg or one thing [00:54:15] like therapy. So yeah, always, always combination. I’ll always say to the client, you know, let’s [00:54:20] talk about your self-care. What are you doing? Everyone rolls their eyes. Oh bloody hell. How’s your [00:54:25] sleep? You know, and and you work out. Oh, actually, they’ve only had two hours of sleep in [00:54:30] this whole week. No wonder they’re emotionally up and down. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Sleep is so important.

Stina Sanders : It’s [00:54:35] so important in relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Do you break them down into a [00:54:40] few types, or are they really all as nuanced as we like to think?

Rhona Eskander: Do [00:54:45] you mean a diagnosis? Is that what you mean?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. When people when people come [00:54:50] to you with relationship issues. Yeah. Are they are they like six basic types and that’s it. Or [00:54:55] or is it like 600?

Stina Sanders : 6 million.

Payman Langroudi: Really?

Stina Sanders : Yeah, [00:55:00] because this is the thing. Like people always say to me like, oh, your [00:55:05] own experiences, which, you know, my abusive relationships and, and I’ve [00:55:10] grown up with a disabled brother and, you know, all these things that we’ve gone through in our lives, of course, [00:55:15] make us human and give us the wisdom and blah, blah, blah, blah. But and yes, it’s given [00:55:20] me empathy and it’s flex that muscle and all the rest of it. But actually my experiences [00:55:25] will never be yours or yours and, and, um, you know, you might have someone [00:55:30] come in who’s in an abusive relationship and, you know, the signs and you, but actually it’s just different [00:55:35] every time, even though it might have similarities. And you go, okay, yes. This is, you know, was [00:55:40] it.

Payman Langroudi: Detective work where you’re like, kind of trying to work out where it’s all coming from? [00:55:45]

Stina Sanders : Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Because and you deal with couples at the same time. [00:55:50]

Stina Sanders : Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So tell me about that. What happens when couples couple comes and what [00:55:55] are the classic situations that sexless marriage.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. Can be me anything.

Payman Langroudi: Where do [00:56:00] you start?

Stina Sanders : I mean, how long have we got? It’s. It’s so I [00:56:05] do something. I’m an integrative therapist, so I bring in different styles and approaches [00:56:10] into my session. And yeah, for the first I would say 2 or 3 sessions. [00:56:15] I’m very person centred. So I allow them or whoever [00:56:20] I’m speaking with to tell me exactly what they’re thinking, feeling. And eventually as [00:56:25] the our relationship builds together, I might start bringing in different sort of, um, [00:56:30] techniques that might be CBT. So it might be Socratic questioning where I’ll sort [00:56:35] of highlight things. It might be somatic work. So it’s like, where do you feel that in your body it might be psychodynamic. [00:56:40] Where? Tell me where you’ve noticed that pattern before. It’s probably something to do with their [00:56:45] childhood. There’s so many different ways you can take it. Um, but I would say in the sort [00:56:50] of when, when I’m building my relationship and trying to understand my client, I am a detective, I [00:56:55] guess because I’m sitting and I’m taking it all in and absorbing it and trying to sort of work out [00:57:00] where are we going? But often or not, you think it’s going to go one way because you just [00:57:05] do you think, okay, I think they’re going to this is what’s going to happen. And then they take it the other way and you’re like, oh, okay. So you [00:57:10] have to be quite fluid as well as a therapist to just be like you. The client has [00:57:15] to lead you. It’s not me being directive at all. So yeah, it’s different [00:57:20] with everybody, every single person. And I always learn from the client, always [00:57:25] learn every day I walk away and I’m like, God, didn’t think that was going to happen or something [00:57:30] quite profound or touching happened.

Rhona Eskander: It’s that’s why I think everyone in medicine and dentistry [00:57:35] has to be like that. I think this directive approach is not what patients want. Like you can’t tell the patient, I [00:57:40] would do this. You need to do this. Like obviously like if you have to deal with disease, fine. Like perio [00:57:45] and caries. But you know like now especially like with the cosmetic dentistry, [00:57:50] you need to listen. Patients take offence when you’re like, I do this, why is your tooth twisted? Do you know what I mean? [00:57:55] Yeah. Which is why, like people come to me for my consultation, like, Oh, I love the way you like. You know, embrace this and you [00:58:00] do this. And not one case is the same. You know what I mean? Like this prescriptive approach I just think is [00:58:05] not working.

Stina Sanders : No, no, I agree with you.

Rhona Eskander: So for anyone who is struggling at [00:58:10] the moment apart from getting on ChatGPT.

Payman Langroudi: What [00:58:15] have you done it?

Rhona Eskander: What? Chatgpt I talked to ChatGPT all the time as a therapist. As a [00:58:20] friend? Yeah, kind of like as a friend. Therapist. Like, my friends have said it to me a million times, so [00:58:25] I just like, need to have that advice. Almost reinforced because I wake.

Payman Langroudi: Up free one or the paid one? [00:58:30]

Rhona Eskander: Paid?

[TRANSITION]: Yeah. Awesome.

Rhona Eskander: Um, but I do find it quite disturbing how some [00:58:35] of my friends have said, like, they don’t need therapy and they can just sit and just stay in on night [00:58:40] in and just chat to ChatGPT for hours. Do you know what I mean? And these are, like, really amazing [00:58:45] people. But I know, so I thought it was an interesting conversation. But for those that are struggling [00:58:50] and haven’t embarked on a journey of self-discovery or feel that their patterns are constantly repeating [00:58:55] themselves, their life is not getting any better, whether that’s love, career. Friendships, etc.. [00:59:00] What would be your advice? Some simple steps to take to sort of. Discover how you can make your life [00:59:05] better.

Stina Sanders : Obviously I’m biased, but therapy? Go to a therapist. Yes. Chatgpt. [00:59:10] In the interim, you’re allowed to use it. But. But talking to somebody is is [00:59:15] 100% the first step. Because we when you’re stuck. Even [00:59:20] when you’re typing into ChatGPT the situation, you’re actually stuck. You’re not thinking [00:59:25] outside, but when you’re talking to a human, they can, you know, bounce off. We’ve already gone through this, but bounce [00:59:30] off sort of different ideas and everything. But, um, yeah, it’s I [00:59:35] think when we have if you’re aware of a pattern, that’s [00:59:40] also a very good sign because if you’re, if you like, hang on a minute, okay. Keep attracting red [00:59:45] flags. That’s awareness. That’s good. That’s the first step as well.

Rhona Eskander: Keep chasing the high [00:59:50] just because it feels like love.

Stina Sanders : Yeah okay. Go on. So having that awareness [00:59:55] is a good first step as well. And looking in that mirror and I think really, you [01:00:00] can only really do that in therapy. And looking at the patterns, where does that come from? Why? [01:00:05] How do you feel about that? What do you believe? Like who’s who’s saying that? [01:00:10] That thought. That negative thought. Is it little Rhona? Is it 20 year old [01:00:15] Rhona? Is it? Do you know what I mean? It’s like you can break that down. And. And I mean again. [01:00:20] How long have you got? You can go so many different ways with therapy I love it.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. [01:00:25]

Payman Langroudi: I tell it to ask me 20 questions.

Stina Sanders : Ask you 20 questions okay. And then it gets to know you. [01:00:30]

Payman Langroudi: Get to know me. And I find that whatever the situation is not, not not necessarily [01:00:35] like in a therapy situation.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. The thing is though, with ChatGPT it’s not going [01:00:40] to.

Rhona Eskander: It’s not conscious.

Stina Sanders : Yeah, exactly. And it’s very basic.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:00:45] talking about, for instance, customer experience. Yeah. To act as a customer experience expert [01:00:50] work.

Rhona Eskander: That’s work.

Payman Langroudi: You’re not asking questions about my business.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah. Fine.

Payman Langroudi: And then suggest doing [01:00:55] the same thing with that same thing.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but I think I think business versus mental health is two different things because business [01:01:00] is about data as well. Whereas mental health, you can extrapolate things from data. But every [01:01:05] human being is hugely complex. It’s like getting a machine to do veneers. You’re never going to get the [01:01:10] same result with handmade. On that note, how can people find you? [01:01:15]

Stina Sanders : You can find me on Instagram and TikTok. My name is Dina Sanders.

Rhona Eskander: Thank [01:01:20] you so much. And if people do want to look you up sessions with you or to do any therapy [01:01:25] or coaching.

Stina Sanders : Yeah. So I actually have a website in the in the making as it stands, but you can just go [01:01:30] on my Instagram or TikTok and join a waiting list because I am opening up my [01:01:35] clinic next month.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. And that will be with Baby Bump.

Stina Sanders : Um, majority is online, [01:01:40] believe it or not. Yeah. Um, but my clinic will be in Soho, London.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, so you’ll [01:01:45] have a physical site as well?

Stina Sanders : Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you so much, Dina. That was incredible. Lovely to.

Stina Sanders : Meet you. [01:01:50] Lovely to.

[TRANSITION]: Meet you. Thank you.