[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hi [00:00:25] everyone and welcome back to Mind Movers, a segment of the Dental Leaders podcast [00:00:30] where we open up conversations that matter on mental health, power dynamics, identity [00:00:35] and the wider world where we’re all navigating. Our guest today is someone [00:00:40] who I consider now a friend, and I love her very dearly, and she has helped thousands [00:00:45] of people recognise red flags, find their voice and understand their worth. [00:00:50] You probably know her as Lala. Let me explain. But behind the platform [00:00:55] is Lala. I’ll say that because she’s anonymized. You can go have a look at her Instagram. She’s a former [00:01:00] social worker, a best selling author and one of the most important voices online today when it comes [00:01:05] to love, abuse, power and patriarchy. Lala grew up facing challenges that shaped [00:01:10] her perspective early on. She then spent over a decade working in safeguarding, witnessing [00:01:15] firsthand the realities of domestic abuse, child protection, and the breakdowns in the system [00:01:20] meant to help that experience fuels everything that she shares today, and her mission is [00:01:25] to empower others through truth, boundaries and lived experience. And this is nothing [00:01:30] short of inspiring, so welcome Lala.

Lala: That was lovely. I need [00:01:35] everyone to introduce me like that before I enter any room now.

Rhona Eskander: I pretty much do. And it was [00:01:40] so funny because when she first came to me as a patient, she was like Rona. And [00:01:45] she hugged me and she was like, oh, I’ve got a little gift for you and handed it. And I was like, who? I was like, who is this person? [00:01:50] I’ve been following her for years. And then she gave me her book and I realised it was because she’s anonymous. [00:01:55] Yeah. And so Say. I think you get that a lot, right? When you’re like, high and people are like, [00:02:00] who are you?

Lala: Yeah. It’s really it’s, you know, one of my favourite things to do in life with [00:02:05] my anonymity is sometimes I’ve built lots of relationships with people over the years on [00:02:10] Instagram, and of course, I see their faces, but they haven’t got a clue who I am. So there’s been [00:02:15] a few occasions where I’ve spotted somebody in a restaurant or in the street, and I’ve gone [00:02:20] up to them and I’ve said, right, you have to be quiet, but I’m going to whisper in your ear [00:02:25] and they’re like, what the hell is going on? This stranger has just come up to me and said, I’m about [00:02:30] to whisper something in your ear, and you can see people being really like, like, freaked out. And then I’ll whisper in their [00:02:35] ear, I’m la la la. Let me explain. And then they’re just.

[ALL]: Like, oh my God. [00:02:40]

Lala: It’s so beautiful.

Payman Langroudi: Did you do it as a gimmick or. Because. Yeah. How does the name.

Rhona Eskander: Come.

Payman Langroudi: About for [00:02:45] for a reason.

Lala: The anonymity came about because I was still a social [00:02:50] worker when I started posting on Instagram, and actually there was no intention [00:02:55] of making anything out of this. This was before the days of real [00:03:00] influencers. Um, I just wanted to tell people [00:03:05] about my experiences, but I wanted to do that anonymously. I didn’t want [00:03:10] my face attached to that. And of course, I was still a social worker. So some of the stuff that [00:03:15] I wanted to put out would be quite conflicting with that role. Um, so I [00:03:20] just started a blog and that was all about my own. It was like sort of sex and the city style, [00:03:25] but more like, I don’t know, gritty. Yeah. Set in a Tottenham estate, [00:03:30] you know. Um, and so I was writing out these dating stories [00:03:35] and they went viral on WordPress, and then I created the Instagram off [00:03:40] the back of that to get people reading the blogs. And then it’s just sort of evolved from there. But I’ve kept my [00:03:45] anonymity for a number of reasons, really. Um, to protect my son. He’s [00:03:50] in secondary school now, and I do sometimes talk about sex and things [00:03:55] that could be used against a teenage boy. Or your mom spoke about blowjobs on [00:04:00] Instagram yesterday. I don’t want to put him through that and I just think it’s safer. I’ve [00:04:05] helped a lot of women to leave really dangerous men. Um, in [00:04:10] fact, a man went into, um, an estate agents the other day, bizarrely didn’t [00:04:15] know that the woman actually knew me or knew who I was. And he started ranting [00:04:20] about how la la la. Let me explain. Had made his wife leave him. Um, [00:04:25] so things like that. And she contacted me to say like this. I’ve [00:04:30] just had this really weird situation, but things like that are a constant reminder of, yeah, just keep your [00:04:35] anonymity, you know?

Rhona Eskander: Do you think it bothers people that you’re anonymous?

Lala: I [00:04:40] think it has swings and roundabouts. So I think that the negative stuff [00:04:45] that gets levelled at me is almost this idea that I’m not [00:04:50] fully owning what I say because I’m keeping a mask on and [00:04:55] that if I’m hiding behind anonymity, then I’m not really saying it with my chest or [00:05:00] or being authentic, I guess. But actually, I think the anonymity allows me [00:05:05] to be far more authentic. I can be free without the fear of judgement. [00:05:10] Um, but I think also a lot of people really appreciate the anonymity [00:05:15] because it doesn’t box me in. If you’re a muslim woman [00:05:20] who I don’t look anything like and and you, [00:05:25] you know, you don’t look at me and see me as necessarily your sister, that [00:05:30] might make you less inclined to take my advice. Whereas if I’m anonymous, [00:05:35] you can make me whoever you need me to be in your imagination, [00:05:40] you know? And I feel that sometimes if I’m looking at an advice page or somebody’s talking about something on Instagram, [00:05:45] I might look at the woman and think, I can’t relate. You’re probably not dating the same kind of men that [00:05:50] I’m dating. You’re probably in a different life phase to me, whereas the anonymity takes [00:05:55] away all of that and allows people to just hear the message.

Rhona Eskander: I absolutely love that. [00:06:00] And I totally agree, because I think that, you know, interestingly enough, like with my [00:06:05] social media, it was an expression of who I was. And for me, definitely like the glamorous, creative [00:06:10] part of me was always suppressed during dental school. And I loved social media because [00:06:15] it allowed me to express myself. But what I have come to realise is there’s so much judgement comes with that, you [00:06:20] know, especially for my colleagues, like less so from people because, you know, we met each other through social [00:06:25] media, but, you know, they’re like, can she be taken seriously? Does she look like a certain way? She’s [00:06:30] too glam. She’s too done up. She’s too this like judgements do come. So I actually think it’s really, really [00:06:35] smart in a way.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I think anonymity is such an important thing in general. [00:06:40] I mean, the idea that you get recognised in the street would do my head in completely, [00:06:45] completely. And yet I do like getting recognised at a dental event. [00:06:50] Yeah that does. And so I scratch the itch there. But out in the real like [00:06:55] the idea that I could be in Waitrose and someone knows me just do I do [00:07:00] not want anyone to know that I’m in Waitrose but you somehow kind of manage [00:07:05] manage or you actually like it even.

Rhona Eskander: Sometimes I do like it, but I think that’s just because of my own stuff. I think [00:07:10] that I recognise I’ve done enough work to know that I have issues with my self-esteem and my validation, and [00:07:15] it makes me feel seen, and it makes me feel like I’m worth something in a way. But I [00:07:20] think that is a lot what I’ve come to realise, especially treating these kinds of patients in my dental practice, [00:07:25] those that like to be in the public eye genuinely, I think, have self-esteem [00:07:30] issues and I think generally have validation issues, and especially those that want the validation for the way [00:07:35] they look on social media. And there’s nothing wrong with it, but I think it’s important to own it and recognise [00:07:40] when it can become a problem, you know, and I think it’s doing that work because you can’t undo it. But I think [00:07:45] the first step is taking ownership, you know?

Lala: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, when [00:07:50] you were just saying that, I realised that actually there is part of me that [00:07:55] does feel a sense of loss and not being able to have that public recognition. [00:08:00] I’ve been out with friends before who are well known, and lots of people are coming up [00:08:05] to them, and I’m sort of standing there going, I wish I could sort of say I’m [00:08:10] la la la la. You might know.

Rhona Eskander: Who I.

Lala: Am, you know, but I can’t. I just have to stand silently and [00:08:15] not receive the same praise that the other person is receiving. And I think there is nothing [00:08:20] wrong with wanting validation. And there’s I think it’s wonderful that people approach you [00:08:25] and tell you nice things. Um, but I also fear [00:08:30] that on the other side, for me, perhaps people wouldn’t be approaching me all the time and saying nice [00:08:35] things. Maybe it would be.

Rhona Eskander: No, I mean, listen, I think you have got you’re you’re a safety [00:08:40] net for people, right? So I think the like you said, you know, when you confide in people. [00:08:45] Part of the reassurance is them feeling like, well, I [00:08:50] feel safe because I don’t know what they look like, what they’re like. So I think I personally think like what you’ve done is amazing. [00:08:55] And I think it’s kudos and testament to you and for protecting your son, you know, because I think people forget [00:09:00] that. Right? They really we’ve had this conversation, the impact that they can have on their own children by [00:09:05] putting themselves out there. I do want to go a little bit back to your upbringing, [00:09:10] where you were from, what your own childhood was like, and how you essentially fell into [00:09:15] social work to begin with.

Lala: So I’m from a working class [00:09:20] background. I was born and raised in north London. Um, my dad was [00:09:25] a firefighter and my mum was a 999 call operator for the London Fire Brigade. [00:09:30] They met on a picket line in the 1970s when they were on, [00:09:35] when the fire brigade were on strike. Um, so the [00:09:40] beginning years, I had like a really quite solid childhood with two married [00:09:45] parents. And then when I was I mean, my dad was always very [00:09:50] difficult. He was always a difficult parent in that he had a lot of [00:09:55] expectations about how we looked, how we presented ourselves, the weight that we [00:10:00] maintained. And I think a lot of people would recognise that kind of pressure from their [00:10:05] their own parents. But I loved and idolised my dad, and there was something very cool about him being [00:10:10] a firefighter, you know, all the kids, if he’d ever picked me up from school, the kids would beg [00:10:15] him to give them fireman’s lifts so there’d be queues of little children ready to get on my dad’s [00:10:20] shoulders. And then when I was seven, he ran off [00:10:25] with my mum’s best friend and business partner. I say business partner, but they were making [00:10:30] cakes on the side. They had little business making cakes together, so she was like [00:10:35] an auntie to me and my sister. This woman actually lived in the house directly opposite, very [00:10:40] close to my mum.

Lala: And then it turned out my dad was having an affair with her. [00:10:45] So in one day, everything changed and my dad just moved over the road. [00:10:50] Wow. Yeah. Um, and it took me a [00:10:55] lot of years in therapy to realise that [00:11:00] that was such a pivotal moment for me, because it was the time that created a sense [00:11:05] that I couldn’t keep a man. I couldn’t even keep my own dad. [00:11:10] I wasn’t valuable or worthy enough to even keep that one man [00:11:15] in my life. I didn’t see it, as you know, from the adult context, or [00:11:20] that he’d left my mom, but but essentially, he abandoned us and he chose her over [00:11:25] us. And then we went through years of sort of really difficult relationship with my dad. [00:11:30] So my mom would drop us to, uh, to visit him for the [00:11:35] weekend. And I remember a really significant moment was that he opened the door one day. And he [00:11:40] looked me and my sister up and down and he said, look at the state of you. You look like absolute [00:11:45] tramps. I had all of these things planned this weekend. I can’t be seen in the streets [00:11:50] with people who look like you. So we stayed in that whole weekend. And so there was just [00:11:55] this constant sense throughout my childhood that I was too ugly.

Lala: I [00:12:00] wasn’t valuable or worthy enough to be even seen out in public, you know? [00:12:05] Um, so I became very attached [00:12:10] to male validation and male attention when I was 12 [00:12:15] or 13, probably a bit before that, I started developing these really massive boobs. [00:12:20] You know, they just appeared on my chest. And at the same time, even though I was a [00:12:25] very young teenager, visibly I didn’t look old in my face. [00:12:30] I would walk down the street on the way to school and have men shouting out of [00:12:35] vans that they wanted to suck my tits or fuck me or whatever, you know. And at [00:12:40] 12, when you think I’m really ugly, I’m really disgusting. [00:12:45] And then a disgusting old man shouts out of a window that actually he wants [00:12:50] to do something to you. Part of your brain sees that as validating, [00:12:55] sees that attention as meaning something that actually you are attractive, [00:13:00] you are sexy. And so then that had such [00:13:05] a huge impact on how I showed up in dating and love. You know, [00:13:10] from the age of 14 when I lost my virginity to a really [00:13:15] horrible boy who I now look back and realise also was an incredibly damaged [00:13:20] young man who’d had awful times at home. But he subjected [00:13:25] me to just really a very abusive relationship for several years [00:13:30] of my teenage life.

Lala: And, and again, that just carried through and carried [00:13:35] through. Um, and my first proper true boyfriend after [00:13:40] secondary school who I fell in love with, who was a lovely man, actually, and [00:13:45] who gave me who he would worship like my from my toenail to [00:13:50] my eyebrows, you know, everything was beautiful. And he was really, um, [00:13:55] like, quite an antidote. But, um, his life very [00:14:00] quickly fell apart, and he became addicted to crack cocaine and ended [00:14:05] up in prison for attempted murder. Not of me. Um, he got [00:14:10] involved in in drugs and drug dealing and all sorts of stuff. [00:14:15] Um, and I was very involved in the whole court case [00:14:20] and things like that. And it was when he got sentenced to 13 [00:14:25] years in prison, which was like a grief to me. But I contacted [00:14:30] the Prisoners families helpline, um, and they were just wonderful. [00:14:35] And then I started volunteering for them. Um, and at the same time, [00:14:40] I started doing a counselling course and I started doing teaching sexual health. [00:14:45] And just all these things came together as a result of his incarceration. [00:14:50] And then my need to help other people who were going through similar [00:14:55] things to me. And then it was just, you know, a road from there, right into [00:15:00] child protection and and where I am now, I guess.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing. I mean, like, [00:15:05] wow. Like just such a deeply colourful past, you know, I [00:15:10] can’t I actually didn’t know that. And I didn’t know how much you’ve been through. Do you forgive your dad?

Lala: You [00:15:15] know, my the situation with my dad is complex, [00:15:20] so I actually love him. And I will never stop loving him. I [00:15:25] don’t idolise him anymore. And that was really the key in, um, [00:15:30] in a mind shift for me, also [00:15:35] understanding who he is and how he got to the place [00:15:40] that he was at. I think when you can see your parents in the context of how they [00:15:45] were parented, you know, when I look at my dad and the experiences [00:15:50] that he went through, he went through a much worse childhood than me. He watched [00:15:55] his dad severely beat his own mother up. So [00:16:00] there was lots of stuff going on for my dad. So when I was able to look at my dad as a little lost [00:16:05] child, that helped to heal a lot within me. Um, [00:16:10] but I did stop speaking to him for a couple of years up until last year, [00:16:15] because I realised that we were just repeating patterns, and it was this weird thing where [00:16:20] I’d done all this therapy and all of this healing. But still, if my dad was coming over to my [00:16:25] house, I’d be like a maniac, sort of trying to tidy up, make everything [00:16:30] neat and instilling that in my son as well. Like granddad’s coming over. Your nails [00:16:35] look dirty. Cut this, you know, sort your hair out. But I’m doing the same to him [00:16:40] as I was, as my dad did to me. This pressure of you’re not good enough.

Lala: You must look perfect. [00:16:45] You must be perfect. And I’m like, what the fuck am I doing to my own? I’m literally [00:16:50] repeating. And then every time we’d spend time with my dad, things would end up in an argument. [00:16:55] And my dad is the most argumentative. He always thinks he’s right about everything. [00:17:00] And then it just got to the point where I was like, I just can’t do this. I’ve been repeating this for 40 years. [00:17:05] I just I’m done with it. What is the point in striving to have a relationship with this man? [00:17:10] Blocked him. And then last year, he nearly died. Um, he’s [00:17:15] an alcoholic now. He wasn’t before, and he basically drank [00:17:20] himself to the point of extremely near death. My sister [00:17:25] and I had to break into his house, virtually drag him out. He had, [00:17:30] I think, 18 blood transfusions when we got him to ICU. They were like, [00:17:35] he’s he’s if another hour he would have been gone. So [00:17:40] then I was like, there every single day looking after this man who previously two years I hadn’t spoken to him, [00:17:45] I hated him. And then the realisation that he might die sort [00:17:50] of changed a lot for me. So I’m involved with him again now and I [00:17:55] see him regularly, but I have to constantly do the work and remind [00:18:00] myself that his views or what he says isn’t me. It’s [00:18:05] nothing to do with me. It is all him.

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s really hard though, with parents. I mean, I’ve actually [00:18:10] because I’ve never really asked you, but I feel like the everything starts with parenting and that parental [00:18:15] viewpoint, like I have a mother wound. So I would say I do idolise my dad and I still [00:18:20] idolise my dad. More is to do with my mother and my mum’s amazing. [00:18:25] And you know, I have to keep bringing myself back to. Like you said, she did the best [00:18:30] that she could with the tools that she had. She comes from a deeply like generational trauma, being [00:18:35] Middle Eastern Lebanese, then abusive, narcissistic mother. So [00:18:40] she did the best that she could, right? But it’s still I get the same where like, I don’t see her and I’m like, oh, [00:18:45] it’s all fine. And then I spend time with her and I’m so triggered. I’m so triggered, and everything goes out the window, [00:18:50] the healing, the work, and you can’t even bring yourself out of it. I think it’s [00:18:55] hard because parents do really shape us, and I think that [00:19:00] a lot of people that are on this journey of like self-love have to recognise that. [00:19:05] You have to look at your parents, and if you are willing to make change [00:19:10] or want to make change, you have to break their patterns as well. And I think there’s really I’m not into like severing [00:19:15] relationships, but I’m into boundaries. I think boundaries are important and they make make you feel guilty [00:19:20] about it. But I think it’s really important. Do you do you feel like your parents still impact [00:19:25] you?

Payman Langroudi: Just the notion with either of you resonate of loving someone but not liking them.

Lala: Oh [00:19:30] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Especially with family.

Lala: Yeah. What does that mean to you?

Payman Langroudi: I [00:19:35] think of one person like that, you know, in your family. Yeah, in my extended family. And [00:19:40] and it’s it’s. I feel so conflicted about it.

Rhona Eskander: Why?

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, how [00:19:45] can you love someone that you don’t like? So it’s a weird thing.

Lala: I felt, but I think [00:19:50] often parents feel a bit like that in brief moments. You know, when you’re when [00:19:55] my. I’ve had, you know, when you’re when you’re. I mean, it’s not it’s a fleeting feeling. [00:20:00] Um, but but actually, I think it’s, you know, it’s very possible to have that feeling like I love you so [00:20:05] deeply, but right now, you’re being a real prick. Yeah. You know.

Payman Langroudi: But [00:20:10] also what you just said about generational trauma and and healing that. And both of you [00:20:15] talked about, you know, doing the work. I mean, maybe the first time in, [00:20:20] like, in humanity where the man in the street. The [00:20:25] girl in the street is going to go and have a therapist and work through this stuff, and actually [00:20:30] have a possibility of breaking that, you know. Because, because because you say your grandmother. But [00:20:35] it could have been your grandmother’s grandmother that started 100%. And it just goes on. Right.

Rhona Eskander: But, you know, the DNA [00:20:40] for a woman starts, doesn’t it, in your great grandmother’s womb. Do you know about this? So I had a menopause expert [00:20:45] on here, and she was saying that something like the eggs that we as women as well like [00:20:50] it actually we carry. This is where epigenetics comes in and [00:20:55] it is actually carried.

Payman Langroudi: We carry it.

Rhona Eskander: We carry it. And the thing is, with people that have been [00:21:00] through certain things, if they’re from certain heritage, you know, if they come from like Jewish heritage, Middle [00:21:05] Eastern heritage, they actually carry generational trauma. Women also carry it more than [00:21:10] men because of what women have been through, collectively not taking that away from them. But it’s proven. [00:21:15] So I think that that is something that’s really important to work through. And I [00:21:20] think that’s important because also our parents would have carried that. Like if your parents have that [00:21:25] kind of hard working mentality or the way that you look, etc., that comes from somewhere and I think, [00:21:30] look, you can’t break it. Lala and I just discussed that, you know, before you got anything like [00:21:35] but you can have awareness and I think that’s the important thing and just be like, okay, I can take a deep breath. I think it’s [00:21:40] it’s really hard to completely change really, really hard unless you completely change your identity. [00:21:45] And I think being triggered is part of being human, but it’s about changing the way that [00:21:50] you react and respond to things. That’s my view.

Payman Langroudi: Did you talk to your mum about?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How was [00:21:55] your mum? Their relationship. And I mean, you know, you say you felt abandoned, [00:22:00] but what about just now that you’re an adult? Did you sort of discuss that with your.

Lala: Well, I again, [00:22:05] another thing that I realised in therapy was that I really resented my [00:22:10] mum. I blamed her for not being able to keep my dad, and [00:22:15] it made me see my mum as incredibly ugly and [00:22:20] embarrassing. You know, I was mortified just by her presence. And I know that’s pretty normal for teenagers, [00:22:25] to be fair. Like, you can be the coolest person. They’re just like, oh, God, why are [00:22:30] you talking to me in public? Um, but I really felt like almost. [00:22:35] She was a representation of me, and she was hideous. And my [00:22:40] mom’s beautiful, actually. Really beautiful woman. But I just [00:22:45] really resented her. And also, there were some abandonment things with her [00:22:50] because inevitably, I mean, my dad left. He wasn’t giving her any money, so she [00:22:55] then had to work three jobs. One of them was shift work because she was doing 909 calls. [00:23:00] So then we’d have young people, babysitters, au [00:23:05] pairs, whatever. Um, and again, when you’re a child, [00:23:10] you don’t interpret that as your mom just needing to make ends meet. You interpret that as well. [00:23:15] My mom’s never here. And then what? That enabled me to do at 14 was [00:23:20] just run wild. And I really did run wild. I would take her [00:23:25] car in the middle of the night and drive to Elephant and Castle. Mcdonald’s never had a driving lesson in [00:23:30] my life. I mean, it’s a wonder that I survived it all. Um, but [00:23:35] I really it was a very complicated thing with my mum. Um, [00:23:40] but there’s something very healing in, in getting older and realising, seeing [00:23:45] her as a woman and realising that her experiences with men and in the world [00:23:50] are so similar to so many of us, including me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So [00:23:55] when you started the social work, how are you finding it? How were you [00:24:00] navigating that world? Do you feel this was a real calling? So you had obviously gone on this journey to [00:24:05] acquire the ability to help these people. How was it for you then, [00:24:10] this kind of actually being in the working world with these people?

Lala: Well, I started off, [00:24:15] um, my journey to social work, actually wanting to work with adults, I [00:24:20] wanted to well, I had this weird kind of special, not weird, but I had this real [00:24:25] interest in HIV and people in prison. My dissertation was [00:24:30] on the psychosocial needs of female prisoners living with HIV and Aids. Hiv [00:24:35] wasn’t in the place that it is now. People were still dying from HIV and Aids. [00:24:40] That it wasn’t you equals you. Medication wasn’t available in [00:24:45] the same way. Um, but then throughout, at the same time, I was teaching for the NHS, [00:24:50] um, doing sex, sexual health and relationship education in schools and settings [00:24:55] for young people. And I kept getting disclosures. So [00:25:00] we would be teaching young people to put condoms on or giving them these lessons. And then young people [00:25:05] would take me to one side at the end and they would tell me something horrific. Um, [00:25:10] and I remember always feeling like, I want to deal with this. I don’t want to [00:25:15] write this down and send this to someone else and get them to do it. I want to hold your hand through this. I want to investigate this. [00:25:20] And so that’s what led me to change from adult social work to children’s [00:25:25] social work. I wanted to get into child protection. I was really motivated. Um, [00:25:30] and I think once you’re in there, it’s really difficult because you go in [00:25:35] with this idea that you are going to make people’s lives better, that you’re going to seek justice [00:25:40] for vulnerable people, that you’re going to be a mouthpiece for people [00:25:45] who need you.

Lala: But actually then you get entrenched in this bureaucratic system [00:25:50] that isn’t fit for purpose, and that actually [00:25:55] revictimize a lot of victims and can create a lot of extra trauma. [00:26:00] So while you’re in there with the right intentions, quite often, [00:26:05] I mean, social workers do incredible work and it is so difficult and [00:26:10] so underpaid. But often you go in there with the best intentions [00:26:15] and you just can’t carry out what you want to do. You have [00:26:20] to walk away from cases where you know something has happened, but the system [00:26:25] has tied your hands. You have to go into homes and take [00:26:30] babies off mothers because that mum will just not leave. The man who is abusing [00:26:35] her. And even though we know all this stuff about abuse, we [00:26:40] are still going in there and saying, I’m sorry if you can’t leave him, your [00:26:45] babies are unsafe. We have to take them. So whilst I loved being a social [00:26:50] worker, there were so many things that made me feel uncomfortable [00:26:55] with the way the system enacts the protection and [00:27:00] whether I was actually doing care or control. A lot [00:27:05] of the time.

Rhona Eskander: Was that quite early on in your career then, or do you think that developed later? [00:27:10]

Lala: Right from day one, I remember. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Go ahead. I remember going in. [00:27:15] I think it was one of my first few weeks, and I was on duty, and this family turned [00:27:20] up downstairs, and I can’t really remember what had happened. Something [00:27:25] went wrong with their housing. I’m not sure if they’ve been kicked out by the landlord or what [00:27:30] it was, but it was a mother with two really young kids, completely homeless, no family [00:27:35] support system. And she turned up downstairs, um, and I’d [00:27:40] gone down as the duty social worker. And having just studied, [00:27:45] I knew the laws. I knew what was available. I went back up to my duty manager and I [00:27:50] said, you know, two homeless children downstairs. What can we do to help? And my managers were [00:27:55] like, we’ll just tell them to fuck off, tell them to go to their mum’s house to haven’t they got a grandma? And what [00:28:00] about the aunties? And I was like, what? But, but but what about this [00:28:05] section of the law? Um. And they laughed at me when I pointed out I went [00:28:10] off, got out. The Children Act found the part of the Children Act that said we had to do this, bought it to my manager [00:28:15] and they just laughed and they were like, she’s very green, isn’t she? You won’t be this green for very long. And they [00:28:20] were right. And then I found myself towards the end of my career being a bit like that. [00:28:25] I, you know, at the end of a long day, someone would turn up and I think, oh, well, they can fuck off. And [00:28:30] I’d have to catch myself and think. You have now become entrenched in the system. What are you doing [00:28:35] here? Are you representing the system or are you representing the people that you came in?

Payman Langroudi: This resonates [00:28:40] with all of healthcare, right?

Lala: Does it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Nurses.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Social [00:28:45] workers. Yeah, even NHS doctors. That whole system runs on the goodwill of [00:28:50] the humans. Yeah, yeah. Because it’s so underfunded that if the humans don’t have goodwill, the [00:28:55] whole system will fall apart. Yeah. And then those humans get jaded. Oh, yeah. In the end, [00:29:00] those humans get jaded. If you were going to redesign it. I mean, it’s a funny thing. Why should social [00:29:05] workers not get paid? Well?

Lala: Well, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A weird thing why.

Lala: It’s so weird. And [00:29:10] I was thinking about this the other day about how the whole public sector is so devalued, and we [00:29:15] really need to do something about it. It’s. My son was talking about how he’d like to become a firefighter [00:29:20] when he leaves school, and actually, that is something you should be so proud of. What a wonderful thing [00:29:25] to do. But my first thought was, well, they start on about £37,000 [00:29:30] a year and and you’re going to risk your life. You’re [00:29:35] going to give everything that you have and potentially lose your life for [00:29:40] £37,000 a year. And it’s the same with doctors. Of course, doctors earn more, [00:29:45] but not that much more. Um, you know, if you’re a paediatric doctor [00:29:50] in an A&E department, you’re probably earning less than me. And you shouldn’t be. You [00:29:55] shouldn’t be. And I mean me as an influencer, not [00:30:00] me as a social worker. We have to start valuing those people [00:30:05] we have to make sure that firefighters, teachers, social workers, nurses, [00:30:10] dentists, doctors, dental nurses, teachers are valued monetarily. [00:30:15]

Payman Langroudi: Back home in Iran, teacher university teachers like maybe one of the top jobs in the [00:30:20] country.

Lala: In terms of financial rewards.

Payman Langroudi: As well. They get, they earn because they go [00:30:25] around universities giving lectures, whereas here it’s just just a bit.

Rhona Eskander: But but this is the crazy [00:30:30] thing. So like, sorry, I was so like I was like dying to like kind of interject because I’m so passionate about it. I had [00:30:35] a lot of scrutiny when I left the NHS. I worked on it for ten years. I had to go. I [00:30:40] got invited on the Piers Morgan Show a few years ago because they wanted to talk about the Dental crisis. As we know, [00:30:45] it’s absolutely awful. People don’t have access to a dentist. They’re taking out their own teeth. Children [00:30:50] now cannot get access to a dentist. And it’s becoming absolutely horrific because they have abscesses, [00:30:55] which can become life threatening. You know all about this. And the problem is, is they keep blaming the healthcare [00:31:00] professionals and they don’t understand about the system, because when I qualified I was on £8.75 a [00:31:05] UDA. So that was about what, 15 years ago? Um, so my first year, like you were saying, I was making like 27 [00:31:10] K something like that, working on the NHS. That was my year. And obviously it went up a little bit, but [00:31:15] not really a lot. And then I was like told it’s all about targets. You have to hit this amount of targets or you’re going to lose your job. [00:31:20] You have to do this. You have to work this quickly. So what the system taught me was to be fast, not good. [00:31:25] So being fast means that you don’t necessarily treat patients that well. And so for me, it wasn’t necessarily [00:31:30] about me not valuing the NHS. It was because I couldn’t value myself. I couldn’t [00:31:35] value the work. I was not allowed to use certain materials. I was not allowed to see patients for this [00:31:40] amount of time. So the transition for me, like I stayed in it for a long time, ten years compared to a lot of dentists these days. [00:31:45]

Payman Langroudi: I didn’t go into it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, but a lot of dentists these days, like I felt really private. Yeah he did. [00:31:50] Yeah. But I felt guilty because I was like, I, I’ve like been, you know, this education has been [00:31:55] paid for like I owe the system, I owe the government. So I had this like sense of guilt. And even when I went [00:32:00] private, I was still doing 50% NHS work, so I was doing 50. It wasn’t until I bought [00:32:05] Chelsea, which was like five years ago, that I went completely private. I was still doing a bit of NHS [00:32:10] work and I just think like when you see these TikToks and Instagrams with doctors in [00:32:15] America, for example, which is a very broken system on the other way, and you’re like, bloody hell. Like, like [00:32:20] there was a there was a paediatric doctor that compared her UK salary to [00:32:25] an American one. Now, I’m not saying we need to go that far, but like you need a happy medium. And also [00:32:30] I think you need people to start valuing the systems. So for example, some [00:32:35] places in Europe like Germany, Sweden, people pay a tiny bit into like [00:32:40] a pot essentially from when they’re young. And then that all accumulates. So people have access, but [00:32:45] they’re not used to something that’s completely free. You may say, Rhona, like you’re wrong. People should have [00:32:50] access to completely free, but I cannot see any other way because also, I think the value side of [00:32:55] it has to come also from the people that need it and understand as well. Like my health is important [00:33:00] from a young age. And I’m not talking about like a lot like £3 a month or something.

Payman Langroudi: Can I be controversial?

Rhona Eskander: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:33:05] think politicians should earn more.

Lala: No I agree.

Payman Langroudi: Really? [00:33:10] Oh, that’s so good. I mean, the idea that you earn more than [00:33:15] the Prime Minister is ridiculous. Like that blows my mind. The [00:33:20] Prime Minister should earn more than Rhona Eskander. Let’s face it.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. But I want to know. I want to know [00:33:25] why, but.

Payman Langroudi: Okay. I mean, this is a bit strange that they earn so little that they [00:33:30] have to be corrupt to pay for their lives. Do you think? Although. Although [00:33:35] I’m sure in countries where they earn more, they’re still corrupt. Yeah, but to get. If you’re one of 600 [00:33:40] MPs in the country, you should be earning more than every single doctor. Like, what’s that about? [00:33:45] You know, that’s a very important job to represent that constituency and [00:33:50] do everything that they do. And what should they have? The kindness of their heart. They should they should [00:33:55] at least be able to put their kids in school, go on a couple of holidays. These can’t do that on 60 [00:34:00] grand or whatever it is they earn, right?

Rhona Eskander: What do you think?

Lala: I agree, and also because I think our MPs should have [00:34:05] a range of valuable skills, I would really like an MP, [00:34:10] the cabinet member for education, to have been a head teacher. You’re not [00:34:15] going to want to go from head teaching job to an MPs job, which is double the [00:34:20] amount of time you’re going to have to work for. Very much the same.

Payman Langroudi: If you’re a super brain. Yeah. [00:34:25] You know, you’ve got you could go to the city and earn half £1 million, or you could become an MP and earn [00:34:30] 60. Well, you want the super brains to do these jobs.

Lala: I completely agree. I think [00:34:35] all of these things, any public sector role I think should be [00:34:40] valued much more highly because then you get good people in those roles. And that’s [00:34:45] not to say that the people in them at the moment aren’t good. A lot of these roles are a vocation. [00:34:50] I, I say being a dentist, social worker, MP, all of those [00:34:55] things, you probably have to be a certain type of person that is very much called to [00:35:00] want to do that, and people should be remunerated remunerated fairly for [00:35:05] for that.

Rhona Eskander: So what do you think? Going back to the point, I’d love to know your view on this. The healthcare [00:35:10] system as in the NHS versus private versus other countries [00:35:15] who have different models, you know, where it seems to work better. And I’m not talking about extreme [00:35:20] in America, where you’ll die if you don’t have money. Do you think that there should be? [00:35:25] I don’t see like so much funding goes into the NHS, right? So what is the answer? Does [00:35:30] that make.

Payman Langroudi: Sense than ever?

Lala: Yeah, I believe in a welfare state. I think reforms, [00:35:35] plans, although they’re not being open and explicit about it. But [00:35:40] Farage has certainly made multiple comments in private that [00:35:45] have been recorded. And I think that they and the Tories [00:35:50] too. I mean, they’ve privatised everything in this country. Look at what’s happened to the privatisation of our water. [00:35:55] There are people earning billions from owning our water [00:36:00] and it is now full of sewage. You can’t drink tap water in the UK safely [00:36:05] anymore. Us privatisation doesn’t [00:36:10] make things better or more smooth. It just creates [00:36:15] a hierarchy of of where the wealth goes.

Payman Langroudi: If it were a zero sum game [00:36:20] and we’re saying this group should earn more, who should earn less?

Lala: Footballers. [00:36:25]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Agreed. 100%. 100%. Yeah. What do you mean, [00:36:30] millions? For what? Kicking around a ball.

Payman Langroudi: Sorry, footballers.

Rhona Eskander: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [00:36:35] but they don’t count. I mean, if you take all the pay of all the footballers, put it all together, they’re not going to pay for anything. Are [00:36:40] you joking? There’s so few of them that you know.

Lala: But we should be taxing the people at [00:36:45] the top.

Payman Langroudi: But then they’ll all run away, right? Everyone. Everyone we know.

Lala: Everybody.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone we know is moving to Dubai. [00:36:50]

Lala: You say.

Payman Langroudi: Everyone. My business partner is moving to Dubai. Like there’s loads of people moving to Dubai.

Lala: But then moved to Dubai [00:36:55] I think.

Payman Langroudi: But but then. But then the nice restaurant in Saint John’s Wood will stop [00:37:00] working because those people won’t be eating there. You know, there’s, there’s, there are sort of second [00:37:05] order. Second order.

Lala: Um, everyone is if you look at the percentage of the people that are [00:37:10] leaving the UK every year, somebody said this to me yesterday, everyone’s leaving. Well, not [00:37:15] everyone’s going to leave, but.

Payman Langroudi: And then there are people leaving. A [00:37:20] lot of rich people leaving.

Lala: It will create more room then for other people to open [00:37:25] up those areas or have access to that wealth that those people [00:37:30] that will create, you know, if you leave that restaurant in Saint John’s Wood and you pack up with somebody else, [00:37:35] we’ll open a restaurant and make more money. I really think that the, [00:37:40] the it has to be the people at the top and and what I hate that attitude. [00:37:45] Oh, you want me to pay more tax? Well I’m leaving. Piss off. There’s people [00:37:50] on the floor, who have to choose between whether they can eat or their own [00:37:55] child.

Payman Langroudi: And you’re talking about raising revenue. I mean, it’s like a financial discussion. [00:38:00] I mean, I’m with you. I feel left wing overall. Yeah. But it’s the financial discussion. [00:38:05] Like if you raise tax at this amount, you’ll actually get less tax. And so, you know there isn’t [00:38:10] an easy answer but okay footballers who else. Estate agent types. Those types. [00:38:15]

Lala: I just want us to make some enemies now.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a very [00:38:20] interesting point though. The estate agent gets a percentage of the price of the property. So to for doing [00:38:25] the same job today, he’s getting ten times what the guy was getting 15 years [00:38:30] ago because property prices have gone through the roof. You know what I mean? But he’s doing the same thing. He’s selling this house. [00:38:35]

Rhona Eskander: Listen, I don’t know because I don’t know enough to comment. That’s what I’m going to say because I don’t know enough [00:38:40] about politics. Maybe Lala does, but I do know that what they’re doing [00:38:45] at the moment isn’t working, because it feels like you said that Entrepreneurs [00:38:50] are not inspired enough. And if you think about small businesses, for example, even you and I like we [00:38:55] have employees. I have 27 employees. The majority are immigrants, right? [00:39:00] And they are making it impossible for me to sustain a business because they’ve increased National Insurance. Like [00:39:05] I think that like we need to incentivise the small businesses. That’s what I think everything.

Payman Langroudi: We’re saying [00:39:10] is money. We’re saying pay the teachers more, pay the doctors more, pay the nurses. But it’s like, for.

Rhona Eskander: Example, [00:39:15] if you are helping.

Payman Langroudi: People tax you less. So this is all cash. So where are we going to get this cash from? [00:39:20]

Rhona Eskander: I hear you, I hear you.

Lala: We were doing all right. Yeah, we were doing all right not [00:39:25] that long ago. True. I remember being a social worker under Tony [00:39:30] Blair’s Labour government. And then the shift that happened [00:39:35] was stark under me. Yeah. [00:39:40] And it really I remember when I started, we had so many resources. If you had [00:39:45] a teenager who was pregnant, we had a teenage pregnancy team. If you had a parent [00:39:50] who was on drugs who happened to be a traveller, we had a travellers team. We had everything, [00:39:55] and it meant that we were really able to work well with families [00:40:00] based on their specific needs. We had resources. If somebody came and. [00:40:05]

Payman Langroudi: But I think the country was richer at that point, you know, you know, it’s cyclical.

Lala: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we [00:40:10] were in that cycle where there was some money, you know, in the mix. But you’re right. Blair was a genius, right? Tough. [00:40:15] Tough on crime. Tough on the causes of crime.

Lala: I mean, he, you know, he was. [00:40:20]

Rhona Eskander: A warmonger. Yeah.

Lala: We can’t we can’t forget that part. But in terms of what he did for [00:40:25] public sector, it was it felt like the country was being run [00:40:30] really well. And then the Tories came in. And really, it wasn’t very long before [00:40:35] we were at a point where there were no pens, there was no ink in the printer. We couldn’t [00:40:40] give anything to families. We were struggling.

Payman Langroudi: Or are you not old enough.

Lala: Maggie Thatcher, [00:40:45] milk snatcher. So that’s what I remember is that she took our [00:40:50] milk away when we were in primary school.

Payman Langroudi: The picket line that your parents met on. [00:40:55] Yeah. Could well have been 1978 ish.

Lala: It would.

Payman Langroudi: Have been. That’s the year [00:41:00] I got to Britain running away. And Britain was terrible in 1970. I [00:41:05] mean.

Rhona Eskander: My dad.

Payman Langroudi: Says there was a general strike. That’s why they were on strike. Yeah. Everyone was on strike. [00:41:10] Yeah. And interestingly, the the the guys who dig the ground to put the [00:41:15] dead and the grave diggers were on strike. There was rubbish. Men were on strike. Everyone. [00:41:20] The country was definitely not working. Although in the cycle also [00:41:25] there was no money because there was an oil price had gone through the roof. So it’s a funny thing, [00:41:30] you know, like society in that we all seem to know what’s wrong with it, but none of us know how [00:41:35] to really put it.

Rhona Eskander: I don’t I also look again like and I don’t want to be controversial, and maybe it’s because of my poor experience. [00:41:40] I also don’t think necessarily that communism is the answer. I went to Cuba, [00:41:45] and I found it one of the most depressing places I’ve ever been to in my life. And it was really interesting. [00:41:50] The people were depressed, the people that lived there were depressed, and you’d want to go to a restaurant and [00:41:55] all the food was crap and you’d say like, oh, wouldn’t you? Well, they’re not motivated. Why would the guy next [00:42:00] door make it good? You know, like I do think a little bit of competition and human behaviour is normal and natural. [00:42:05] Um, so I don’t like seeing that in practice. I like God, I can’t wait to get home. You know, the doctors [00:42:10] were depressed because I had to go. You know, we had to take my mom for an emergency. Then she fell over. It was just [00:42:15] a generally, like, depressive mood. Uh, I don’t think I’ve been to a communist country. I was [00:42:20] like, this works, and everyone’s really, really happy. So. But then obviously there are so many flaws with capitalism [00:42:25] as well. Do you know what I mean? So, like, I don’t really know what the answer is, to be honest. So let’s [00:42:30] leave the politics behind because I want to move back, to move back to something.

Payman Langroudi: To safeguarding [00:42:35] from the dentist’s perspective. Well, I want.

Rhona Eskander: To I want to talk as well because so obviously you’re doing the social work and like, [00:42:40] what I have to say is since I was about ten years old, I remember so vividly [00:42:45] social workers being taken apart and blamed for anything that went [00:42:50] wrong. So Victoria, Baby pea, all of those stories, it’s [00:42:55] always the social worker. That’s the one that they blame immediately. Why do you think that [00:43:00] is? But also importantly, what do you think went wrong for those cases to get missed? Of course we [00:43:05] know it’s not happening all the time. It’s happening all the time. But we know that social workers [00:43:10] are really good at doing their job. But what’s your views on it?

Lala: It’s interesting [00:43:15] how social workers are so demonised. [00:43:20] You would really think that people whose jobs are every single [00:43:25] day trying to make the lives of vulnerable people better, you [00:43:30] would think that it would be an applauded profession, but it’s not. [00:43:35] It’s actually the opposite of that. Social workers are very much damned if you do and damned [00:43:40] if you don’t. Because in cases where we remove children, there’s always going [00:43:45] to be a backlash. We’ve we’ve not we’ve missed something or we shouldn’t [00:43:50] have done that or we’re being evil or controlling. And then in cases where we haven’t removed [00:43:55] children and unfortunately or very tragically, something happens to that child, [00:44:00] then it’s why didn’t you remove. You should have removed sooner. And it’s [00:44:05] all very well pointing the blame at social workers. And sometimes [00:44:10] social workers are to blame. But actually, I think that’s quite rare. It’s [00:44:15] the system that is to blame. Often if [00:44:20] you are a if you are a social worker, I can only speak for London boroughs, [00:44:25] but largely at the moment you will probably have upwards of [00:44:30] 50 children on your caseload, 50 children, all [00:44:35] at different stages or Or there for different [00:44:40] reasons. And you might have a week to get out to see all of those [00:44:45] children. Now you’re going to look at that caseload of 50 and you’re going to see, okay, one was a [00:44:50] teenager who’s self-harmed, the other one is a baby with a fracture.

Lala: You [00:44:55] are not you don’t have the capacity to give [00:45:00] the same amount of attention to the teenager who is self-harmed as you are going to to the baby [00:45:05] with a fracture. So already you’re in a really difficult position because you’re having to prioritise [00:45:10] who needs me most. And sometimes who needs you most. Isn’t that obvious? It’s [00:45:15] not always fractures and burns and bruises. Sometimes it’s much more subtle. [00:45:20] And if and this is no excuse for missing child abuse. [00:45:25] But if you have 50 cases and you’re running from one to the next, [00:45:30] it can be really easy to miss things. And it can also be [00:45:35] very What’s the right word? You can be very easily [00:45:40] manipulated by the parents, by [00:45:45] other professionals, um, and by your own managers [00:45:50] sometimes. So sometimes you even sort of gaslight yourself where you [00:45:55] might think, oh, this, this. I’m not sure about this one. I’ve. My gut is telling me [00:46:00] these kids need to go, but then you’re made to feel that you’re being [00:46:05] over the top. Or do you really feel like this because, you know, the budget’s a bit tight this month, and we don’t [00:46:10] think that this person’s going to agree to a foster carer. So have you really thought about it? [00:46:15] So I think social workers are often just in a really impossible position. [00:46:20]

Payman Langroudi: If you get that wrong, some child might die. You know, we make mistakes all the time, [00:46:25] right? We make a mistake of feeling might fall out. It’s a total nightmare.

Lala: Oh no. But there is [00:46:30] a case with a. I don’t know if you’re aware of the case of baby L, [00:46:35] who was a five week old baby who was [00:46:40] murdered, brutally murdered by his father. The [00:46:45] mum, when she was pregnant, had aroused [00:46:50] suspicions of the authorities because she kept presenting [00:46:55] at hospital with a variety of injuries, but her explanations [00:47:00] for those injuries stood up to scrutiny. You know, they didn’t arouse any suspicions [00:47:05] in the doctors and nurses who saw her, but there was a [00:47:10] number of of of injuries that she had sustained. What happened [00:47:15] was social services and health visitor, I believe, went out [00:47:20] because some concerns had been raised by other professionals about her care of [00:47:25] the baby and the baby’s sibling, and there were suspicions that [00:47:30] there was domestic abuse in the household. Social worker and health visitor. [00:47:35] Went out, saw the baby, said everything was fine. Mum consistently [00:47:40] denied domestic abuse so they left the following day. Baby [00:47:45] Elle was murdered. He had a split [00:47:50] liver. He had head injuries consistent with being shaken, [00:47:55] covered in bruising. That case went to court. [00:48:00] And what came out of that was that the only person [00:48:05] that the mum had been truthful with about the domestic abuse was her dentist. She had a temporary [00:48:10] denture in because he’d knocked out two of her teeth. She also had significant, [00:48:15] um, marks around her neck because he very regularly strangled [00:48:20] her. And she had spoken to the dentist about this on a number of occasions, [00:48:25] and the dentist never recorded it or never took it any further. [00:48:30] When She and her partner were arrested, she told the police [00:48:35] and social workers that she had disclosed to the dentist. The dentist [00:48:40] was then called up as a significant witness at the trial, and in the [00:48:45] case review, it was concluded that had the dentist shared the information. [00:48:50] Baby L’s murder would have been prevented.

Payman Langroudi: That’s so.

Rhona Eskander: Cool. [00:48:55] Do you know what? It’s. It’s so funny.

Payman Langroudi: Why didn’t we know that?

Rhona Eskander: I don’t know why. I’m gonna. I’m gonna. Look, I’m [00:49:00] surprised.

Lala: That that’s not in Dental. That should be every dentist.

Rhona Eskander: Interesting. Every year I have [00:49:05] to update my safeguarding course. Right. That’s what I have to do. I know you don’t do dentistry anymore. [00:49:10] So I even had my prompt come up, right? Because, you know, my manager said, you know, you’re due again for your safeguarding and [00:49:15] every they haven’t updated the content. To be fair, it’s always about like, as I told you, Victoria Quimby, [00:49:20] baby P, and it gives you an idea. And it’s really it’s something that was drilled [00:49:25] in quite a lot to us in our undergraduate training and something I have to do annually, so you know what to look out for. [00:49:30] When I was working in my NHS practice, I was really in tune because [00:49:35] of the type of patients that I was seeing up in Kent. I would sometimes be like, this child, looks [00:49:40] like neglected fingernails look really dirty, um, like gross dehydrated. [00:49:45] Because obviously like also for dentists, if you see a child, for example, that’s like three and every tooth is [00:49:50] rotten and they can’t eat properly, like you might say, like that’s neglect. Which in a way it is dental [00:49:55] neglect. Right. So then you have to, like I did, alert someone one time because they were not [00:50:00] taking measures. But then sometimes it could be lack of education, right. So the mother might not know that you [00:50:05] can’t put, you know, full fat Coke in a bottle and get them to be, like feeding on it all night. But [00:50:10] certainly, you know, we get told about the different signs that you should look at. So it’s like. [00:50:15]

Payman Langroudi: That story should be in the middle front and centre.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah yeah yeah yeah, [00:50:20] yeah. 100, 110%. And I think it was negligent of the dentist. I’ll go as far [00:50:25] as saying that because the dentist should have alerted we know that we should have alerted. Um.

Lala: I [00:50:30] think the difficulty is that one [00:50:35] of the things probably the I don’t know, I’m not a dentist, but I would imagine that [00:50:40] it’s front and centre of your training is patient confidentiality. And I think [00:50:45] that sometimes particularly health professionals, because health medical records confidentiality [00:50:50] is vital, you can get sued. I mean, I don’t need to explain [00:50:55] to any dentists how important that is. And so I think there’s a conflict for some professionals [00:51:00] where, yes, that dentist was negligent, that dentist should and could have [00:51:05] prevented the death of that baby. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that that person [00:51:10] was just being negligent. It may well be that they got caught up in that [00:51:15] thing of thinking. Well, she’s told me this confidentially. She told me not to tell anyone I [00:51:20] would be breaching my, um, dental, you know, practice [00:51:25] policies by disclosing that. And I think this is really important for dentists to remember [00:51:30] that when it comes to anything like that, safeguarding and [00:51:35] child protection overrides any confidentiality.

Rhona Eskander: I think I think the important. [00:51:40] But listen I think. Yeah, exactly. So I think, I think the different child protection. So the difference is, [00:51:45] is that in our courses and our training you get taught about adults with special [00:51:50] needs. So like does someone having problem consenting if someone got [00:51:55] severe autism. So they give you all of that. They give you case studies, they ask you questions, then [00:52:00] they’ll talk specifically about children. But what they’ve not done, which is maybe they don’t talk [00:52:05] about the we don’t learn that’s not on our module. So you’re saying because in a way it was indirect. [00:52:10] So she’s telling him about her own abuse, but she may have not been [00:52:15] explicit or as explicit about the baby’s abuse. Do you follow me? So that [00:52:20] in a way, is we’re not taught that if I’m being fair on the module.

Lala: Link between [00:52:25] a woman is a mother is being abused.

Rhona Eskander: The child comes in. Yeah. So, you know, again, [00:52:30] like, does the child have strange bruising intra orally, you know, you’re like back of throat, [00:52:35] etc.. Are they being sexually abused in that way? What’s their demeanour like? We get taught all of that. But it’s not about [00:52:40] the link with the parent. It might be like, is the child intimidated from the parents in the room? And as I said, the vulnerable [00:52:45] adults, but is more about the special needs but not about the domestic. So that’s something that definitely should [00:52:50] be upgraded. That kind of came to me again.

Lala: It really surprises me to hear it, because [00:52:55] dentists are going to be right on the front line of people who are [00:53:00] how many other people are going to be that close? The things that dentists need to look out for [00:53:05] are things like marks and injuries around the neck.

Payman Langroudi: Probably loads more women in danger [00:53:10] than children.

Lala: Well, and how many times have people come to you with a missing tooth? And perhaps [00:53:15] you could have explored that a little bit more. How was that tooth evolved? What happened? [00:53:20] Um, and don’t necessarily accept that answer. And again, if there’s [00:53:25] sort of marks anywhere, tears on perineum, you know, [00:53:30] it’s important to err on the side of caution [00:53:35] with all forms of domestic because, you know, child abuse [00:53:40] is domestic abuse. It’s domestic. It’s it’s happening at home. Um, but [00:53:45] that’s so interesting to me that there is sort of no focus on abuse, [00:53:50] adult victims that that might come to you.

Rhona Eskander: It’s fascinating.

Lala: There should be more. [00:53:55]

Rhona Eskander: So in the cases of like, for example, do you sometimes look and get frustrated, like, you know, one [00:54:00] of the recent cases was about Sara, you know, Sara, the girl that was.

Lala: Sara Sharif.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Sara Sharif, [00:54:05] did you not know this story? Um, so she so she her father was, um, a [00:54:10] Pakistani guy. His first marriage was to an Eastern European woman. He had [00:54:15] or relationship? He had a child. The mother didn’t have, [00:54:20] um, I’m not concerned. You know what I’m trying to say? She didn’t have. He was basically the guardian [00:54:25] for the child. Then he got remarried to another Pakistani woman. And then basically, [00:54:30] I think they had their own kids. But Sara was the one being abused in the family. And then eventually [00:54:35] he beat her up so badly that she died. And he [00:54:40] ended up confessing it on a phone call, I think, because the guilt had consumed him. They tried to flee to Pakistan. [00:54:45] Fled? Exactly. And people again were really blaming social workers because apparently [00:54:50] neighbours had called. Things had been flagged. She was covered in bruises, and [00:54:55] I think they tried to cover her up, um, with certain clothes, etc., so [00:55:00] it didn’t look like she had been beaten up. And people said the clues were really there. And I remember looking [00:55:05] at your page and because you had discussed it in depth, but I want to know from your perspective, were you frustrated [00:55:10] because you thought there were so many clues, or do you think it’s just so much easier to look at things in hindsight?

Lala: I [00:55:15] mean, that case is an interesting one because it wasn’t just that there were clues. [00:55:20] This case was already in court. So they knew in a family [00:55:25] court because there had been significant domestic abuse from the father to [00:55:30] the mother. However, where the waters got muddied is that the mother [00:55:35] also was accused of things. So I think she’d slapped the daughter. So [00:55:40] this was seen and interpreted in the courts as two chaotic people [00:55:45] rather than an abusive relationship, and really quite a dangerous [00:55:50] man who’d had a history of abuse with every single previous partner who’d [00:55:55] also had a history of abuse against his own children. I still [00:56:00] can’t understand. I’ve read the the case. I can’t get [00:56:05] my head around what the judges were thinking in granting him [00:56:10] full custody. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s I, I [00:56:15] can read it over and over again. It will never make any sense to me that you can look at a man with that kind of history [00:56:20] and not see that he presents a huge risk. But again, I think it speaks to [00:56:25] a lack of understanding around domestic abuse and that huge link between [00:56:30] domestic abuse and child abuse and child deaths. The two things are inextricably [00:56:35] linked. And if we start to recognise that if somebody is making if somebody [00:56:40] is posing a significant danger to a child’s mother, they’re also a danger to that child. [00:56:45] People just aren’t making those links. So that [00:56:50] that was a case where social workers were concerned. Social workers didn’t want that child to [00:56:55] be living with her father. The courts made a different decision. The courts prioritised [00:57:00] contact with that father and allowed her, allowed Sara to be be [00:57:05] thrown to the wolves, basically. Again, it’s the system. [00:57:10]

Rhona Eskander: So one thing that I want to sort of interweaves a little bit, um, I think [00:57:15] my education around male misogyny and societal [00:57:20] views.

Lala: Sorry. Before we just I just want to say one thing before we move away from safeguarding [00:57:25] and and and dentistry is also obviously dentists are [00:57:30] trained in understanding, as you’ve said, the things about tooth decay, the links with neglect. [00:57:35] And those things don’t necessarily have to be child abuse. Maybe somebody just really living in poverty [00:57:40] and actually a dentist might be able to link them in with community services or social services just [00:57:45] to help with that. Don’t ever feel guilty about making a referral, although [00:57:50] if it’s not high level child protection, you do need to ask your patient if they’re okay with [00:57:55] you making referral. If it was something like poverty.

Rhona Eskander: I think the danger like not [00:58:00] the danger, but the massive trouble is, is like because of the crisis, I literally call it a dental [00:58:05] crisis. Yeah. There’s like literally no one to refer. The dentists are dropping like flies [00:58:10] and even the community hubs they had created, like during Covid, They were just [00:58:15] overwhelmed and oversubscribed. And I think it is. It’s one of the biggest crisises [00:58:20] in healthcare. People just don’t have access. Yeah. Um, even children, as I said, that cannot eat, cannot [00:58:25] drink, have abscesses, cannot swallow, still cannot get a dentist until maybe a dentist. [00:58:30] Like, do you know what? I feel so bad. Let me take on this case because the waiting lists are just horrendous. Yeah. [00:58:35] So again, this for me is a huge, huge problem in dentistry. Huge problem. [00:58:40] And even the hospitals don’t really take anything on. You know you can’t go to A&E for [00:58:45] dentistry. They don’t know how to handle it.

Lala: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the system is just completely [00:58:50] overwhelmed and and broken. But I think if people have if dentists [00:58:55] have it in, in their heads that safeguarding is my responsibility and [00:59:00] have that framework, one of the interesting things, I think is a reframing for [00:59:05] health professionals, particularly dentists away from DNA, did [00:59:10] not attend onto To w NB was not bought. So [00:59:15] if you look at a child who isn’t able to bring themselves to the dentist every six months as [00:59:20] was not bought rather than did not attend, then you can start to see a pattern. [00:59:25] This child deserved this dental care. They were not bought by their parents. It wasn’t just [00:59:30] this adult didn’t attend their appointment. So it’s about looking at things like that [00:59:35] to create those patterns and reframing that in in your head.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:59:40] love it. I think let’s get her as Prime minister and then we can pay her the double salary. So [00:59:45] I want to talk a little bit about misogyny, male misogyny [00:59:50] in society. And this is going to be very interesting for Payman. Um, I’ve introduced him [00:59:55] to a lot of topics on this podcast, and the reason why I say that is because I think that you are one of the people [01:00:00] that educated me the most online, and the older I’ve got as a woman, the more [01:00:05] I’ve recognised how much misogyny there is in this world [01:00:10] and also medical misogyny I would call as well, and how unfair the system is [01:00:15] when it comes to women’s healthcare. My father’s a gynaecologist. I have quite a lot of access [01:00:20] to what’s going on, studies, how much money goes into it. Um, talk [01:00:25] to me a little bit about, well, first of all, how you define misogyny and how the topic [01:00:30] became of interest to you.

Lala: Well, I would define [01:00:35] misogyny as not just but not just [01:00:40] the hatred of women. Obviously, the term misogyny means the hatred of women, but [01:00:45] it’s not just sexism from one individual person who [01:00:50] hates women. It is a whole system. It is what our society [01:00:55] is built on. Misogyny is a set of cultural beliefs [01:01:00] and attitudes that are designed to keep women subjugated and [01:01:05] under male control, and it Impacts subtly [01:01:10] in so many areas of our lives. It’s really [01:01:15] obvious that something is misogynistic. If we look back to that example [01:01:20] I gave from earlier when a man was calling out at me as a child telling [01:01:25] me he wanted to have sex with me, that’s very overt, blatant misogyny. [01:01:30] It’s less obvious if it’s something [01:01:35] subtle, like mansplaining, or if it’s something like [01:01:40] your GP dismissing you, going for the fifth time to talk about your period pain, [01:01:45] not recognising that it’s endometriosis, and thinking you’re just being a hysterical [01:01:50] woman. Things like, you know, a man being assertive [01:01:55] is seen as a powerful man, a woman boss who’s being assertive is [01:02:00] seen as a bitch. Those little subtle ways in which we [01:02:05] separate the genders and apply ideas [01:02:10] and roles to them that then continue to keep [01:02:15] women oppressed and keep women down.

Rhona Eskander: I have a lot of interesting conversations. [01:02:20] I have a friend of mine. He’s a dentist and I love him. But recently we’ve been really sort [01:02:25] of there’s been a lot of friction because he believes that women in the Western world are creating [01:02:30] drama for no reason. Right? And he says to me, like women these days, they have the upper [01:02:35] hand in the Western world, you have all of the rights that you want. You can do what you want. He’s like, look [01:02:40] at the women in Afghanistan. Look at the women in like, Haiti. Look at all of these places where [01:02:45] women’s rights are really nothing. They can’t vote. They can’t have an education. They’re forced into child marriage like that [01:02:50] is it? And we get into these arguments. And when I tell him, like, for example, you [01:02:55] know, male influencers like Andrew Tate, Russell Brand, etc. need [01:03:00] to be questioned. And they’re clearly extremely dangerous, misogynistic. He goes back down. The whole thing [01:03:05] is people are just scrutinising them because they’re ousting the government [01:03:10] and they’re calling out, have you heard this conspiracy theory? You know, and they’re basically calling out [01:03:15] propaganda. And it just infuriates me because I feel like, again, it just takes away from the message. [01:03:20] Okay, you say your view and then I want to kind of say.

Payman Langroudi: Do you recognise [01:03:25] an opposite side to that?

Lala: What do you think.

Payman Langroudi: Misogyny.

Lala: Is? [01:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: As in as in there’s going to be some advantages to being a man and some advantages to being a woman. [01:03:35] If you choose to only look at the advantages of being a man, then you’re forgetting the other side. [01:03:40]

Lala: That’s not the advantages of being a man. There is that [01:03:45] if you look at it like racism. Yeah, right. [01:03:50] There isn’t some part of that that we can see is well. [01:03:55] Oh, well, that’s you know, white people should be in power actually, because there’s some, you know, [01:04:00] there’s not. No, there’s none of that.

Payman Langroudi: There’s nothing about being a woman that’s more advanced.

Lala: It’s not about [01:04:05] being a woman that’s more advantageous. I love being a woman. But the [01:04:10] examples that Rona just gave about her friends saying that Western women [01:04:15] have all the rights, well, that’s pretty fragile. We don’t have those rights absolutely [01:04:20] set into stone. Those were hard fought and [01:04:25] won rights that we had to win from men. We should [01:04:30] never have had to ask and beg for the right to vote. We should have always had that. [01:04:35] There should have never been a time where men were in complete control of everything, and [01:04:40] then women had to slowly go, oh, please, can you let us leave the house by ourselves, please? Can we open [01:04:45] a bank account without a man?

Payman Langroudi: What do.

Lala: You mean?

Payman Langroudi: They should never have been.

Lala: Well, it shouldn’t have. We’re equals in [01:04:50] society have never been. Society should have never been created in in man [01:04:55] made.

Payman Langroudi: I know, but.

Lala: In a way.

Payman Langroudi: It doesn’t help anything to say. [01:05:00] It should have never been.

Lala: Well.

Payman Langroudi: But.

Lala: It should have never been. And that’s what women have to fight for.

Payman Langroudi: As you say, this [01:05:05] current. Let’s just indulge me and call it equality is very, very, very, [01:05:10] very new. So, you know, humanity maybe, maybe the last 97% [01:05:15] of humanity has been the other way. Okay. It should never have [01:05:20] been. But that’s just the way the species was.

Lala: Right. But it was very shit for women [01:05:25] and women who came before us but didn’t want that.

Payman Langroudi: For their.

Lala: Daughters. [01:05:30]

Payman Langroudi: Her friends making that point, saying, look, now you’ve come forward so [01:05:35] far.

Lala: If that can, if women in Afghanistan in 2025 can [01:05:40] be banned from singing and speaking in public, banned from having any type of [01:05:45] career, they’re not allowed to to undertake midwifery courses [01:05:50] or work as doctors. And men are not allowed to be in the room when they have babies. [01:05:55] I mean, that is serious and severe and we can’t look at Afghanistan [01:06:00] and the people in Afghanistan as some other species. They’re not.

Payman Langroudi: Although Afghanistan [01:06:05] has gone backwards, you know, in the 60s.

Lala: So then.

Payman Langroudi: What.

Lala: Stops us from going.

Rhona Eskander: Backwards, [01:06:10] my love? And what you don’t understand is America is the Western world. And there is a woman [01:06:15] in Georgia who has been declared brain dead and is a human incubator. That [01:06:20] is America, that is not Afghanistan, and that is also a white Christian state. So for those that come at me and say, [01:06:25] oh, only Islamic State, yeah, you’re also Iranian and you feel very passionate about women, life, [01:06:30] freedom, right? Like the way Iranian women are now, you know, have risked their lives, [01:06:35] their eyesight, their limbs to fight so they can wear the clothes that they want to wear and beyond, [01:06:40] like it shows you in like we cannot be ignorant to the fact that this is this could [01:06:45] perpetuate the UK eventually. Do you know what I mean? You’ve got a daughter and I think that’s the important [01:06:50] thing to note. And allowing certain kind of influences to [01:06:55] infiltrate our feeds and to sort of brainwash. [01:07:00]

Payman Langroudi: People about it before.

Rhona Eskander: We have talked about it, but I think, I think the.

Payman Langroudi: People are not represented, haven’t been represented. [01:07:05] So this this ends up becoming represented. This ends up becoming the, um.

Lala: Where. [01:07:10]

Payman Langroudi: Where.

Lala: Are men not represented?

Payman Langroudi: You know, for, for a young man they don’t have role [01:07:15] models.

Lala: What.

Payman Langroudi: They don’t they don’t have role models that the that the that the culture. [01:07:20]

Lala: Who were your role models.

Rhona Eskander: Who were your role models.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. [01:07:25] God knows. Come on.

Lala: Sports people and sports people still very much exist [01:07:30] for men to have as role models.

Payman Langroudi: No, but the culture’s not talking about [01:07:35] men anymore.

Lala: Yes they are. They talk about Marcus Rashford and all the amazing things that he’s done for. [01:07:40]

Payman Langroudi: You know what I’m saying?

Lala: No. They talk about Gary Lineker and how great he’s doing at [01:07:45] the moment. I can think of a thousand men who are being celebrated [01:07:50] and who have platforms and who have voices. There [01:07:55] seems to be this myth that men are not visible [01:08:00] in public life. Men have always been dominating public [01:08:05] life. And then women said, can we have a go? Can we be part of this? [01:08:10] And then men reluctantly allowed them. To which again, the fact that you lot [01:08:15] even felt you had the right to allow us, when we’re just equal citizens [01:08:20] in this world the same way that you are, is wild. And all [01:08:25] of this stuff around, there’s no there’s no role models for men. That’s nonsense. [01:08:30] There are just as many role models for men as there are for women. What [01:08:35] seems to have happened is that gender equality for women [01:08:40] seems to have made some men feel like they’re losing something, or they’re having to [01:08:45] give something up when they’re not. Nothing has to change for men. You [01:08:50] just have to make the world a bit more fair and equal for women. That [01:08:55] has resulted in a backlash, and people like [01:09:00] Andrew Tate and other influencers like him have been able to exploit [01:09:05] that. They’ve exploited that by telling men and really short soundbites, [01:09:10] you know, no nuance included. Um, he’s [01:09:15] able to just come in and go, you know, what’s wrong with the world? There’s not enough strong men, [01:09:20] but you can be a strong man.

Lala: Now, that would be wonderful. I want strong [01:09:25] men. I want my son to grow up in a world where he can see, [01:09:30] um, that he can, you know, be whatever he wants to be [01:09:35] and be whoever he wants to be. But that also includes being a soft man, [01:09:40] if that’s what comes naturally to him. If my son develops. I mean, my son is the biggest [01:09:45] boys boy that you could ever meet. There is it’s there is [01:09:50] nature. Nurture is so strong with that boy. It’s nature, you know. He is so [01:09:55] masculine. But had he not been. And he’d have loved ballet. Doesn’t [01:10:00] make him not a man. You can be a man in any of those guises, [01:10:05] but Andrew Tate comes in and he says, what it means to be a man is [01:10:10] that you must be rich. You must work hard. Again, that stuff’s great. [01:10:15] Work hard, you know, aspire to have a lot of money. But he [01:10:20] also then frames it in dominance. He frames it in. You have to dominate [01:10:25] your household. You have to dominate the women around you. You have to be this way sexually. [01:10:30] You have to, you know, showing any emotion is weak. So whilst [01:10:35] yeah, you can extract some good things from his message and from other alpha male influences [01:10:40] messages, the core of it all is dominance [01:10:45] and subjugation of women. And that is harmful to 50% of the [01:10:50] Population, and we’re seeing the effects of it now in schools.

Payman Langroudi: Do you see much [01:10:55] more women worried about Andrew Tate? I mean, I don’t know. I [01:11:00] don’t know loads of men who follow.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, because I want, I want to I want to dismantle this. Right. Because also like this [01:11:05] friend of mine will say, oh, but, you know, the whole point is, is that government want to create [01:11:10] weak men. And that’s why Andrew Tate, because it’s such a threat to them. Because [01:11:15] weak men just wait for it. Because weak men are the ones that are going to be likely to go off [01:11:20] on war and doing stuff for the government long term. You know, all these conspiracy theories and I’m like, what the hell? I [01:11:25] was like the mental gymnastics that had to be performed for this. Like, for this. It is what it is. Do you [01:11:30] know what I mean? It literally is what it is. But what would you say to those people that are saying things [01:11:35] like this that, you know, it’s because women want us weaker, it’s because society want [01:11:40] us weaker, and we’re fed up of this, you know, this conspiracy theory. We’re sick of being, you [01:11:45] know, told by the government and people like what we should do because they want us to be robots and puppets. [01:11:50]

Lala: You know, I find it really difficult. I’ve [01:11:55] spent a long time arguing with people on the internet about these crazy [01:12:00] myths. I mean, people genuinely believe. And listen to Andrew Tate on things like Covid [01:12:05] vaccines because allegedly he’s got all this secret information about it, and [01:12:10] it’s like critical thinking skills have been lost. It’s like nobody can sit down [01:12:15] and go, hang on. This guy was literally on Big Brother, not even Celebrity Big Brother. He was just some random [01:12:20] dude off the street who was now in public life who is [01:12:25] feeding him secret information about vaccines. Like why? And if they were, he wouldn’t [01:12:30] even be able to interpret it. He’s got no medical knowledge whatsoever. I think if people were able to sit and [01:12:35] really critically think, who’s giving you this information? Where [01:12:40] are they getting it from? What do you think that they might want you to do with this information? [01:12:45] Why would the government want to make citizens weak. Actually, [01:12:50] in this capitalist structure, the government and the billionaires like Jeff Bezos, [01:12:55] they want worker bees. They want people stocking up their warehouses and and using their [01:13:00] muscles to build. That’s what they want. They don’t want us to all be, you know, intellectual [01:13:05] people who can out design them with AI. They want us to be they want men [01:13:10] to be strong.

Rhona Eskander: Blue collar men.

Lala: Yeah, that’s what they want. Keep them down. Do you feel defensive about [01:13:15] it? Because you’re a man?

Payman Langroudi: No. Not really.

Lala: How old? How [01:13:20] many children have you got?

Payman Langroudi: Two. One of each.

Lala: Right.

Payman Langroudi: That generation, you know, along with, you know, like [01:13:25] people used to bang on about the, um, wokeness and all that. Yeah. And for [01:13:30] me, it had gone too far, you know. You know, like. Fine. Uh, not not [01:13:35] that there was any problem with it, but the percentage of the population that are affected by transgender issues, [01:13:40] it’s a tiny percentage of the population. But the amount of time being talked about [01:13:45] that was such a huge amount of time that in that respect it gone too far, but that [01:13:50] the other side of this woke society, the good side of it is that, [01:13:55] you know, their their age group, they’re completely colour-blind, [01:14:00] you know, like there isn’t an ounce of racism in any of them. You know, [01:14:05] they’re anti-bullying. They’re, you know, they’re kinder, you know, much kinder than [01:14:10] our generation. And they’re very smart to social media. You know, they’re native to it. [01:14:15] So they understand it much more than we give them credit for.

Lala: I agree with that. But [01:14:20] I do also worry about the critical thinking. I worry about it with my son, about whether he can see [01:14:25] things for what they are. You know, because you’re presented with so much on social [01:14:30] media, aren’t you like so much bullshit. And for me, I’m like, oh, that’s clearly bollocks. [01:14:35] Why? Why are you trying to tell me that aluminium foil is going to give me cancer if I touch it, you [01:14:40] know? But whereas my son will read that and be like, ah, don’t use.

[ALL]: Tin foil anymore.

Lala: You know. [01:14:45]

Rhona Eskander: And you’ll be surprised because some of the smartest people, um, believe the biggest. I mean, my.

Lala: Friend.

Rhona Eskander: Was [01:14:50] like, tomatoes are man made and really bad for you. I was like.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but what do you believe about Covid? Do you do [01:14:55] you agree that.

Rhona Eskander: We can go into that? But I want to wrap up the misogyny thing. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask [01:15:00] you, Lala, is also like the thing that I have a problem with, right, is internalised misogyny. [01:15:05] So, you know, because you and I have known each other for a little while now, I’m a massive champion of women. [01:15:10] You know, I tend to be attracted more to kind of like stronger women like yourself, which is just like my natural [01:15:15] mate, because I’m like, she’s amazing. Look what she’s doing. I don’t I don’t like to compete with them. I’m more like, how can I learn from her rather [01:15:20] than compete?

Payman Langroudi: Internalised.

Rhona Eskander: Well, this is so this is an interesting internalised misogyny is like kind [01:15:25] of basically like the projection of hatred between women. And that’s because [01:15:30] internally as well, they have been conditioned to believe that they’re like fighting for [01:15:35] men essentially. So the thought process goes, correct me if I’m wrong, um, that like men [01:15:40] also want that in a way, because they, like women, don’t had never wanted to intentionally [01:15:45] compete with each other, but because of the views that had been instilled with them, they do right. Am [01:15:50] I kind of on the right? On the right lines? So what? I find it difficult and we know I don’t want [01:15:55] to give her more airtime, but there is a certain psychologist online we’ve talked about and [01:16:00] she’s got millions of like she is racking up the followers, right? She’s not even a psychotherapist, [01:16:05] but she calls herself a therapist or a psychologist. She has she’s a teacher who had, I think, a [01:16:10] psychology degree, but she’s a teacher, went online, is giving people advice, charging people hundreds. [01:16:15] And she was actually she’s actually an ally of Andrew Tate. So she perpetuates [01:16:20] all of his beliefs. And the way that she talks about women is so offensive.

Rhona Eskander: Like [01:16:25] she did something I honestly like sent my therapist friend a video of her, and I was like, this woman needs to be cancelled [01:16:30] ASAP. She sent a video to say that if you cheat and you’re [01:16:35] a man, it’s more acceptable than if you cheat. If you’re a woman, because men [01:16:40] cheat out of their needs needing to be met, whereas women cheat because they disrespect [01:16:45] their partner. And if a man forgives the woman, it will reinforce her view that the man [01:16:50] is weak. It’s just like she just comes out with these crazy statements and people believe her. [01:16:55] That really worries me. And then what worries me is the women that do celebrate [01:17:00] those male influencers online. And I find it quite disturbing because sometimes I look at [01:17:05] the comments, you know, I’m nosy and it’s like you can see these women so desperate for the attention of those [01:17:10] men, they become, pick me girls. And they’re like, they, they do. And I find it, like, really [01:17:15] sad in a way, because I feel like, how can there be progression if women cannot even be [01:17:20] there for each other?

Payman Langroudi: The conspiracy out of it, huh? You made a conspiracy about.

Rhona Eskander: A conspiracy, [01:17:25] let’s say. Let’s hear Lala’s view.

Lala: Do you not recognise that?

Payman Langroudi: A conspiracy of that.

Lala: Not a conspiracy, [01:17:30] but it’s.

Payman Langroudi: See, I see women are very competitive with each other and very jealous of each other. And. [01:17:35] Yeah, but. But the idea that that’s a conspiracy by men to keep them down.

Lala: Well, [01:17:40] yes, in a way it is so internalised. Misogyny comes from [01:17:45] the fact that society from when you are born. I [01:17:50] hope it’s changing now a little for our children and the new children we’re bringing into the world. [01:17:55] But gender roles have already have always been very rigid, and [01:18:00] society has always had an idea of what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman. And if [01:18:05] you step outside of those boxes, then, um, then [01:18:10] you’re you’re a piece of crap, you know? So a woman who has sex with lots [01:18:15] of people who she’s not in a relationship with is going to be judged completely differently [01:18:20] to, oh, my God, not anymore. Yes, anymore.

Rhona Eskander: I’ll give [01:18:25] you two examples. Dan Bilzerian, who who used to sleep with nine women a day, and now he sleeps [01:18:30] with two versus Lili Phillips. Right. And I know that she is, but she is. Listen.

Payman Langroudi: That’s [01:18:35] the thing.

Rhona Eskander: That’s the wrong.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the that’s a wrong comparison.

Rhona Eskander: Why is it the wrong comparison? She’s a sex worker that has [01:18:40] chosen to be. Now we all know. I know we’ve discussed that. Like, is she happy? Truly happy. And there’s all other conversations [01:18:45] about that. But I’m saying the way society judges her.

Payman Langroudi: That’s the wrong comparison, because. [01:18:50]

Lala: It’s also the way that society would judge someone like her versus someone like Diddy [01:18:55] or Andrew Tate. Andrew Tate is an alleged, we have to say. [01:19:00] But I mean, I don’t see why we have to say alleged because he’s literally been very [01:19:05] open on the internet about how he’s made all his money from exploiting women on webcams. [01:19:10] He has trafficked women, some minors, um, and [01:19:15] exploited.

[TRANSITION]: Them. Has he?

Lala: Yeah, that’s what he’s being. He’s literally been on [01:19:20] his own. His his own website. They’ve just been taken down [01:19:25] from Spotify. There are a hundred different courses on exactly [01:19:30] how to get your girlfriend to become an OnlyFans model. [01:19:35] If you read Clown World, which is an investigation into Andrew Tate [01:19:40] by Matt Shea and Jamie Tarson, they’re brilliant men. They came on my [01:19:45] podcast. They went to Andrew Tate’s compound in Romania. They [01:19:50] interviewed him. They took part in his war rooms and his Hustler’s University. They [01:19:55] were inside group chats between him and his members. And [01:20:00] you one example that they give is about this 40 year old man who’s [01:20:05] been married to his wife for some time. And in this group chat, [01:20:10] the men are trying to teach him how to slowly get [01:20:15] his wife to be comfortable with just showing a bra on the internet or just showing [01:20:20] whatever, because then eventually, uh, your wife is a cash [01:20:25] cow. You can’t, you know, women’s bodies are a financial haven, you know? [01:20:30] Um, and there is this whole, you know, number [01:20:35] of men who sign up and pay for these courses. You have [01:20:40] to read it really to really quite understand.

Payman Langroudi: How about OnlyFans?

Lala: I think [01:20:45] it is important that women who want to, or people who want to work [01:20:50] in sex work have the means to be in control of that and [01:20:55] to not be pimped or exploited. I think it’s excellent [01:21:00] that because so much porn out there is completely free, you know, you’ll see [01:21:05] a woman who’s being absolutely degraded and violated in a mainstream porn film, [01:21:10] and she earned £15 and a packet of coke for doing that. And then [01:21:15] her video is generating hundreds of thousands for Pornhub. That [01:21:20] is not okay. That is exploitation. And whilst I wish that woman was never [01:21:25] in that position in the first place, if she can take control and [01:21:30] be financially rewarded or paid for for for the [01:21:35] exploitation, then that has to be a good thing. And sometimes it’s [01:21:40] not exploitation. Sometimes women take control and decide that that’s what they want [01:21:45] to do. Now it’s interesting because I was having a conversation with my dad about this the other day, and my dad said [01:21:50] me and my sister were arguing with him. So my dad said, OnlyFans [01:21:55] is disgusting. Every woman on there needs to know that she is preventing [01:22:00] herself from ever being able to get a decent husband. There is no [01:22:05] man in the world who is ever going to take a woman seriously who has been [01:22:10] on OnlyFans. Now me and my sister were just like, well, what about the men who pay? What [01:22:15] about the men who are creating this huge market? Should I ask every man I date whether [01:22:20] he’s ever subscribed to an OnlyFans or watched a porn? Because I can’t ever be with him because he’s the kind of [01:22:25] man who watches these things. And this is where the misogyny and the double standards come into it. [01:22:30] A thousand men had sex with Bonnie Blue on on one day. Very [01:22:35] few people are coming for those men. They’re all looking at Bonnie Blue. Well, actually, it’s [01:22:40] a mutual problem here. And and if we’re going to be critical of women [01:22:45] who are using OnlyFans, then we have to also be critical of the men who are who are paying.

Payman Langroudi: Are [01:22:50] you critical of Bonnie Blue, for instance?

Lala: Yes. I think Bonnie Blue is absolutely fucking hideous. [01:22:55] I think she’s disgraceful. I think.

Rhona Eskander: She is. She is because of all.

Lala: Because of how [01:23:00] she frames it.

Rhona Eskander: And also how she talks about women and how she blames women and how she claims she [01:23:05] goes online and says if a man cheats on me with like and he has a [01:23:10] wife, it’s the wife’s fault for not shagging him. And I invite all you husbands. [01:23:15]

[ALL]: That’s clickbait.

Lala: But I actually think she’s a sociopath or something. I think there’s something I think, I think [01:23:20] I think Bonnie Blue is a completely unique character and is not [01:23:25] representative of most women in sex work. Most women are just quietly getting [01:23:30] on with their sex work and not harming anyone, and deserve to be safe and [01:23:35] paid. It is their right to do that job. It is their body. You know, again, my dad [01:23:40] was saying, um, you know, these women using their bodies, it’s so dangerous. I was like, dad, you [01:23:45] went into fires for the government. Like, you know, that’s dangerous. [01:23:50] You your body was being used, but by by the system to go into [01:23:55] a really dangerous. You know, we’re all using our bodies in one way or another. [01:24:00] Um, I think Bonnie Blue is a separate thing in a way, because I think [01:24:05] there’s lots of harms around the fact that she, um, targets barely [01:24:10] legal, as she says. I think she’s spoken a lot about, um, wanting [01:24:15] men with autism, virgins with special needs and things. And it’s [01:24:20] like, um, um.

Rhona Eskander: She’s she’s I mean, look, I just think she’s [01:24:25] she’s a different conversation, but kind of the summary of the internalised misogyny. [01:24:30] Yeah. What is your view? Because I find it a problem I really do like because I look at some people online, [01:24:35] the way they’re engaging and.

[TRANSITION]: The people who.

Payman Langroudi: Write bad comments to you are mainly women. [01:24:40]

Rhona Eskander: I mean, look, I know it’s really interesting.

Lala: Internalised misogyny would be a woman [01:24:45] looking at the Russell Brand case. Yeah. Despite the fact that there is [01:24:50] such clear evidence from the documentary that came [01:24:55] out and obviously really clear evidence that’s being heard in in court leading up [01:25:00] to his trial. Internalised misogyny is the women in those comments [01:25:05] saying, well, why did those girls go back? It is those women who are saying they. [01:25:10]

Rhona Eskander: Just wanted money, which is what my dentist.

Lala: Says. Yeah. She just wanted.

Rhona Eskander: Money and fame.

Payman Langroudi: Because [01:25:15] he’s.

Rhona Eskander: Famous. He’s famous. They didn’t have to. Or people saying, I mean, even you had that awful, um, [01:25:20] lady Victoria Hervey that said, oh, uh, you know, Epstein and Prince [01:25:25] Andrew like, oh, come on. These girls, I mean, they were in yachts and Saint-Tropez with them. That’s [01:25:30] not, you know, real trafficking and real abuse is when I went to Thailand and someone was raped in an [01:25:35] alleyway, you know, being on a yacht in Saint-Tropez, like, people are almost, like, classist about it, like, [01:25:40] because it’s done in glamour. It’s okay.

Lala: Well, it’s also and it’s done as a it’s [01:25:45] done as a thing of othering those women. It is done in a way to [01:25:50] show I’m not that. I’m not like those girls, those girls who get raped, those ones who are responsible. [01:25:55] It’s lifting yourself up above other women in [01:26:00] order to gain male attention or male approval. And male approval [01:26:05] is something that we are all really conditioned into [01:26:10] because men are at the top, men are the most important, even if [01:26:15] it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Nature rather than nurture.

Lala: No, even me right? I have [01:26:20] noticed, you know.

Payman Langroudi: How do you know it’s not nature?

Lala: What? It’s not nature. Because there [01:26:25] are matriarchal societies where this is not present at all. There [01:26:30] are matriarchal societies where women are at the top and at the helm, and are [01:26:35] seen as the most important and the wisest. Whereas in our society, [01:26:40] I see.

Payman Langroudi: Where.

Lala: I have felt a feeling a few [01:26:45] times, where I’ve had a DM from a man saying, [01:26:50] I really love your content, I think you’re really amazing and I’ll. [01:26:55] I will take that as I’m almost like, wow, like I really take [01:27:00] that, like, great. A man has said it and then I have to check myself like, no, 30 women just said [01:27:05] the same thing to you. And you were like, yeah, thanks. And then a man says it and I’m like, that. That must mean [01:27:10] my content is good.

[TRANSITION]: That’s nature.

Lala: That’s why. How is that nature?

Payman Langroudi: Because he’s a man. You’re a woman. All [01:27:15] the things that you know.

[TRANSITION]: Men feel this doesn’t have to be nurtured.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t have to be. Oh, society is so skew [01:27:20] whiff that you’ve been conditioned to be. You know you are a woman. He is a man. [01:27:25] You’re. You’re bi. Bi. Genetically. You’re genetically designed. Genetically [01:27:30] designed to attract him. Well, you’re not a lesbian. If you’re a lesbian, then it would be the other way.

Lala: But. Well, not necessarily. [01:27:35] No. You know, it’s. Society tells us that men set [01:27:40] the bar and men hold the power. And if the people who hold the power think that you’re great, [01:27:45] then it’s not nature that makes you go, hey, it’s it’s [01:27:50] nurture. It’s going, oh, I might be one step closer to the top. If men approve of me, I [01:27:55] might be picked by men for a variety of things. There’s a lot of conditioning, [01:28:00] and obviously we can’t see how we’d all be if, if if the world was completely different. [01:28:05]

Rhona Eskander: As I said to you, I still struggle with it. Because when I get trolled and when I get berated, it’s mainly by [01:28:10] women, which I find so upsetting. I find it so upsetting when I have like, [01:28:15] women be like, you’re so ugly. Like even when I do like an empowered piece about like, my business. [01:28:20] I’m like, I want to shout and scream about my business that I built with my, like, blood, sweat and tears. And, [01:28:25] you know, I’ll have women just tearing me down or like, picking apart the way that I want. The way that.

Payman Langroudi: I.

Rhona Eskander: Nurture. [01:28:30] Huh?

Payman Langroudi: Do you think that’s also nature?

Rhona Eskander: I just don’t find it helpful. I don’t think so. Because I don’t like. [01:28:35]

Payman Langroudi: Do you think it’s incorrect to say women are more bitchy than men?

Rhona Eskander: I think women are more bitchy.

Lala: Well, that’s a [01:28:40] misogynistic trope. I know a lot of bitchy men and men, but we don’t. We don’t call it bitching. [01:28:45] When men do it. We don’t call it bitching. Men will sit around. Men love [01:28:50] a bit of gossip. Every man I know loves a bit of gossip, loves [01:28:55] talking about people that they dislike. The thing is, you just wouldn’t call [01:29:00] it bitching.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just, you know, you don’t. You’ve had this discussion many times, right? That the equality [01:29:05] is one thing, but being the same is another thing.

Lala: But we don’t want it.

Payman Langroudi: We’re the.

Lala: Same equality. [01:29:10]

Payman Langroudi: We’re not the same at all. We’re totally different.

Lala: We’re not trying to be. I don’t think women are trying to be the same. It’s [01:29:15] about having equity.

Payman Langroudi: But even to your dad’s point, which I don’t [01:29:20] agree with, by the way, but even to your dad’s point, like equating the the bunny. [01:29:25] What was it, the Bonnie Blue? Was it the Bonnie Blue? No, it was OnlyFans. Equating the guy who [01:29:30] signs up to OnlyFans page with the girl. I get it, I get [01:29:35] what you’re saying. But what I’m saying is things are not the same. [01:29:40] Things are different for the different races, different genders, you know?

Lala: But it [01:29:45] would have only taken women to be in charge in whatever it was 200 [01:29:50] A.D., to set in stone that women should be having sex with [01:29:55] lots of people. And actually, if you look at evolution.

Payman Langroudi: Back in the day, sex at dawn.

Lala: You know why the penis [01:30:00] looks the way it does.

[TRANSITION]: Don’t tell me.

Lala: It looks like a mushroom, because women [01:30:05] were having sex with 6 or 7 different people within the tribe. And in order for [01:30:10] your your sperm to be the winner, your mushroom shaped penis [01:30:15] was designed to drag out the other sperm and keep your [01:30:20] one in there. I’m probably not describing it very well, but Google. Google it. That makes sense.

Rhona Eskander: Sarah.

Lala: I [01:30:25] read it in Sarah Pascoe’s book, and it was it was very common for [01:30:30] women to have sex with loads of people. And then everyone in the tribe just raise those babies. [01:30:35] We could still be doing that. Yeah, but back in the day, whenever it was, some [01:30:40] men decided to go, no, no, sorry. God said, we can have lots of sex. [01:30:45] You can’t. God also said, well, and then they wrote it, and [01:30:50] then we all just went, okay.

Payman Langroudi: You had to do with, like, agriculture coming in, you know, because then when agriculture [01:30:55] came in, the land ownership came in. Then then it.

Lala: Was long time.

Payman Langroudi: After [01:31:00] handing, handing it down, handing down.

Rhona Eskander: That was a long time, not that long [01:31:05] ago.

[TRANSITION]: That was not that long ago.

Lala: Well, that’s the thing you speak about, you know, handing [01:31:10] down an ownership. Yeah. Ownership of women by men.

Payman Langroudi: So you go from knowing [01:31:15] for for a child to know who his father was was an important thing, because [01:31:20] your father owned this bit of land and so he could hand it down to you. But before that, [01:31:25] you’re right. You’re absolutely right. There was something. There was no need to know who the father was.

Rhona Eskander: There was actually something interesting. Do [01:31:30] you know the Vikings? The reason why they’re so tall as well, like the Scandes? Because the Vikings [01:31:35] also used to rape the strongest, tallest, broadest women for their sons to be big, [01:31:40] tall and strong.

Payman Langroudi: Sure.

Rhona Eskander: So, yeah, I write that. It’s so lovely. Listen, [01:31:45] we could go on to this round and round and round. So I’m gonna. I’m gonna take away a second. I want to talk to you a bit [01:31:50] about the P-diddy trial. Uh, because I really trust your knowledge and sources. I feel like you [01:31:55] always do your research. Um, what do you think is going to happen? How the jury set up anything [01:32:00] that. I just would love to know your views.

Lala: Um, I think it’s a really precarious [01:32:05] one, because it is so important that he’s [01:32:10] found guilty. Because if he’s found not guilty, I think it will have [01:32:15] a really sad impact on future cases of [01:32:20] powerful men being held to account. I am concerned [01:32:25] about the fact that it is an eight man, four woman [01:32:30] jewellery, although that’s not necessarily a problem because, as you said, internalised [01:32:35] misogyny can mean that sometimes women can be worse than men. Um, [01:32:40] but having a male dominant jury might [01:32:45] mean that there are less people on that jury who have that empathy and that recognition [01:32:50] about coercion, and how going back or being [01:32:55] paid for something doesn’t mean you consented to it. I think sometimes women [01:33:00] may have more experience of that kind of nuance around coercion. Um, [01:33:05] so I do I do worry about that.

Payman Langroudi: I think it does pivot on consent. [01:33:10] Right.

Lala: So what he’s being charged with is sex trafficking, racketeering, [01:33:15] and, I think conspiracy to prostitution. So [01:33:20] the racketeering is a charge. So it’s interesting because it’s not actually a [01:33:25] charge about domestic abuse, although it centres on the [01:33:30] testimony of Cassie Ventura, who he was in a relationship with [01:33:35] for 11 years. What happened was she was, [01:33:40] you know, did you see that video where she was badly [01:33:45] beaten by him? So all of that came out and under the Adult Survivors [01:33:50] Act, just before the statute of limitations ran out. And [01:33:55] just as that video was released, Cassie took civil action against Diddy, which [01:34:00] he paid within 24 hours. 20 million didn’t allow the case to go to court, [01:34:05] settled it. But because of all of that, and because when that [01:34:10] all came out, around 120 other victims 60 men, 60 women, [01:34:15] 25 of whom were children at the time, all came [01:34:20] forward to say that they had been abused in some way by Diddy over [01:34:25] a number of years. That then led the authorities to start looking [01:34:30] into what the hell was going on in Diddy’s world, which [01:34:35] led them to realise that he was having these very regular things that he called freak offs. [01:34:40] And these free coughs were sometimes four days straight, no [01:34:45] stopping, just full on orgies, group sex with [01:34:50] people he’d either found at parties or paid to be there. So [01:34:55] sex workers, Cassie, was there other women? He was in? Relationships were there. [01:35:00] And at these free coffees, it was extreme. It was extreme. It was urinating [01:35:05] in people’s faces. It was all sorts of stuff. And [01:35:10] what he would do was record those acts. So he had collateral [01:35:15] against all of the people who attended these parties that he would later use [01:35:20] to threaten and blackmail them. So what the racketeering part [01:35:25] is about is it’s almost like mafia mob style stuff, [01:35:30] because he wasn’t just some real creepy guy with [01:35:35] an incredibly high sex drive who found people he wanted to have sex with and had like private orgies [01:35:40] with them. This was an organised situation. He had a [01:35:45] whole host of people around him providing lube.

Payman Langroudi: Spiking.

Lala: Drugs, the sex workers. [01:35:50]

Payman Langroudi: Doing.

Lala: The filming, providing security, driving people from one place [01:35:55] to another for the procurement of sex, threatening people, making [01:36:00] them sign NDAs. So this was a whole operation, and he couldn’t have done any of the things [01:36:05] that he did without the assistance of all of those people, which is what makes it racketeering. [01:36:10] And then the sex trafficking is that he was getting people from one state or one country to [01:36:15] another and having them moved there for the purposes of these free coffees, which were so [01:36:20] brutal that people had to be hooked up to IV drips at the end of [01:36:25] them because they were just completely depleted and dehydrated. So it’s really serious [01:36:30] stuff.

Rhona Eskander: So why does it worry you that the jury’s got? I mean, for obvious reasons. But as [01:36:35] in, why does it worry you that the jury has eight men and four women?

Lala: The narrative that I’ve seen a [01:36:40] lot on social media, particularly from men, is this idea that these people can’t [01:36:45] have been victims because they went to more than one free cuff. These people can’t have been victims [01:36:50] because they consented. Cassie can’t have been a victim because she stayed with him for 11 [01:36:55] years. So there is this real naivete around the coercion. [01:37:00]

Rhona Eskander: But that’s the same with all these media cases, I find, because people say, which is also [01:37:05] the argument that I have with, um, my dentist friend where he’s like, but they [01:37:10] stayed. They wanted the money, they wanted the glamour. They were happy to go to the red carpet. They were happy to see what I mean. So [01:37:15] I think like people find it really difficult to understand. But also I would also say people [01:37:20] also find it really difficult to understand that you can be talented and you can be a psychopath or a paedophile. It’s like when Michael [01:37:25] Jackson came out and all that stuff came out in the documentary. It was so blatantly obvious [01:37:30] that these men had been sexually abused when they were children. Like, Michael Jackson would never do that. Okay, he [01:37:35] can sing, the man can sing, but he also came from sexual abuse. So it’s not it’s not that kind of crazy [01:37:40] to accept that. Like, it’s almost like people think you can’t be talented. It’s almost [01:37:45] like, you know, you can’t be talented and you can’t be a psychopath. At the same.

Payman Langroudi: Time, lives [01:37:50] are so like crazy that, you know, pushed to the next, to the next thing, to the next thing. It’s [01:37:55] almost more likely with super successful.

Lala: Because you’ve got.

Payman Langroudi: Power. Yeah. Power. Exactly. [01:38:00] Yeah. Exactly.

Rhona Eskander: Lala. What I wanted to ask you as well is [01:38:05] a little bit about abortion rights. I know we both saw I had sent you a post recently [01:38:10] on social media, which was really scary. I don’t know if you saw it. I’ll let Lala kind of [01:38:15] go into it. Are you worried that the UK is going to follow suit with abortion rights? Um. [01:38:20] Like America?

Lala: Um, I don’t think [01:38:25] we will go that way because I think we have a much less religious nation. We’re much more secular. [01:38:30] And I, I think it’s religion that informs a lot of the [01:38:35] drive towards controlling women’s reproductive rights. I [01:38:40] think that things are a bit strange at the moment. You’re talking about this [01:38:45] new police guidance around just.

Rhona Eskander: Tell Payman give it a summary.

Lala: So there’s been [01:38:50] this news reported this week that the National [01:38:55] Police Chiefs Council has issued new guidance to police officers that [01:39:00] in the cases of miscarriage or stillbirth, where [01:39:05] it is suspected that there might have been some foul play, they should be [01:39:10] taking women’s devices, checking their fertility apps, [01:39:15] checking their any recordings about their menstrual cycle, checking messages that [01:39:20] they may have left to people. I think it’s really important to emphasise that the guidance [01:39:25] is about where there is suspected foul play. However, the problem [01:39:30] with that is that we know that boundaries are often breached [01:39:35] and that mistakes are often made, and this puts women in an incredibly [01:39:40] vulnerable position at a time where they are possibly more vulnerable [01:39:45] than they could ever be in their lives. And I feel like it’s come at a really strange time, [01:39:50] because a case has just concluded last week that of a woman called Nicola [01:39:55] Packer, who In lockdown. Obviously during lockdown [01:40:00] things were completely mad and so people couldn’t go and get terminations or go [01:40:05] and seek help from doctors in the way that they ordinarily would. But [01:40:10] the law was changed, and it meant that in order to enable women to have [01:40:15] abortions, they could do it over the phone. They didn’t have to have the scans and all of that [01:40:20] kind of stuff. So Nicola Packer, she was a 45 year old woman, [01:40:25] or I think maybe 43 at the time. She believed [01:40:30] that she was feeling unwell. She was having some kind of symptoms. She [01:40:35] didn’t feel great, but she’d been having periods.

Lala: And then she [01:40:40] discovered that she was pregnant after a few weeks of feeling like this. So she assumed [01:40:45] that she was 7 to 10 weeks pregnant. She contacted [01:40:50] Bpas or whatever it was procured. These abortion pills took [01:40:55] them at home and then got into deep distress and actually [01:41:00] ended up giving birth. It was it was a still birth, but the baby [01:41:05] was 26 weeks. So she goes to the hospital. [01:41:10] I mean, obviously she’s having this abortion and a much more formed baby is is [01:41:15] coming out than what she would have expected. She goes to the hospital. She [01:41:20] tells them initially, I think that she’s miscarriages because I believe that she was frightened [01:41:25] of what they’d say if she said that she took abortion pills. Eventually [01:41:30] she did tell them that she’d taken these abortion pills, but she thought that she was much earlier along in the pregnancy, [01:41:35] and the midwives called the police. The police arrive at the hospital. She [01:41:40] just had the baby removed from her. She hasn’t even been [01:41:45] given blood thinning medication or any of the things that she would need to make sure that [01:41:50] she is physically safe. She’s arrested at that moment and taken straight to [01:41:55] a police cell where, straight after this stillbirth, [01:42:00] she’s sitting on wooden planks in a cell, being told that she is potentially [01:42:05] being done for a, um, an offence [01:42:10] that could carry life, a life sentence in prison. So I think the UK. [01:42:15] So people are confused about abortion laws in the UK. Abortion [01:42:20] is not legal in the UK under an act called [01:42:25] the Offences Against the Persons Act, which is a law that [01:42:30] was created in 1861 before women even had the right to vote.

Lala: This law [01:42:35] was created and it said that anyone who performs or procures an abortion [01:42:40] can go to prison for up to life. In [01:42:45] 1967, the Abortion Act made [01:42:50] amendments to the Offences Against the Person Act, which meant that whilst abortion [01:42:55] is still illegal, there are ways around it. So if you have permission [01:43:00] or consent or whatever from two doctors and the pregnancy [01:43:05] is less than 24 weeks, then you can have a legal abortion [01:43:10] if the pregnancy is over 24 weeks. The only cases in which you can [01:43:15] have an abortion is if there is a serious risk to the woman’s life, or the foetus has got very serious [01:43:20] abnormalities. So you can still and always have been able [01:43:25] to be prosecuted in this country. If you had perform an abortion, [01:43:30] an illegal abortion or have one. Campaigners have been campaigning for a really [01:43:35] long time, and especially in light of Nicky Packer’s case, that abortion in the UK [01:43:40] must be decriminalised. Women should not, under any circumstances, be put into [01:43:45] that situation that she was put in directly after miscarriage. So it just seems [01:43:50] like a very odd timing for the National Police Chiefs Council just [01:43:55] while it is ramping up this this, uh, campaign to decriminalise abortion, [01:44:00] to then release this new guidance about actually coming down more [01:44:05] hard on women who have had miscarriages or stillbirths. It is very worrying.

Payman Langroudi: Why do you think why do you think? [01:44:10] What do you think the motivation is?

Lala: I mean, I think the thing is the motivation is potentially [01:44:15] not a bad one. In the case that. Well, [01:44:20] I can’t really actually think of that many [01:44:25] cases where a woman, you know, women kill babies, women do kill babies. That [01:44:30] is usually because of very severe psychotic episode that that woman [01:44:35] is going through, usually associated with some sort of post-natal depression. Very [01:44:40] rare to find a woman who would do that for sadistic reasons. Obviously, [01:44:45] you know, you also have things like shaken baby be syndrome, where people get [01:44:50] frustrated, where people lose it with a crying baby. But it’s very, very rare for [01:44:55] women to kill their own babies. So I can’t really understand what that motivation [01:45:00] is, because there aren’t hundreds of women who are who are [01:45:05] killing their babies. And also, I think that if you are a vulnerable young woman, you didn’t [01:45:10] realise you were pregnant or something has happened and you just don’t want this baby anymore, you might [01:45:15] be driven to desperation. You might be driven down a back alley where someone sticks a knitting needle [01:45:20] up you, God forbid. But then to be punishing those women is [01:45:25] crazy, because I can’t see a situation where a woman, or a very [01:45:30] rare situation where a woman isn’t deeply, desperately in danger and very [01:45:35] vulnerable. They convicted another woman, a young woman. I think it was [01:45:40] during lockdown as well. She was a teenager.

Lala: She gave birth to a baby in her bedroom [01:45:45] alone. She didn’t want her parents downstairs to know that she was pregnant. I’m [01:45:50] not even sure that she knew she was pregnant. Can you imagine being 16? Suddenly [01:45:55] this baby starts coming out of you. You’re having to. She described having to hold her own mouth. Going [01:46:00] through labour on your own while your parents are upstairs. Um. The baby [01:46:05] was then found by her mum in a black bin bag outside [01:46:10] that she’d put it. You know, the baby was no longer alive. She was convicted [01:46:15] and sent to prison, which again, I feel is a miscarriage of justice. You [01:46:20] can look at it as she should have done 100 different things, and that baby should have survived, and [01:46:25] that she should have gone downstairs to her parents. She should have called the ambulance. But is [01:46:30] she someone who poses a risk to the rest of the public? Is she someone who is evil? [01:46:35] Or has she just gone through something so traumatic that she will [01:46:40] never be able to probably forgive herself for when she’s older, and it all starts to make sense to her. [01:46:45] So I just think that we need to. These things are so nuanced and very rarely [01:46:50] come from a place of, you know, who’s just popping out babies to kill them. It just doesn’t work [01:46:55] like that. So yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I think it’s an important conversation. I could literally sit and talk to [01:47:00] her for like, hours. Like he’s just like, honestly, like, honestly, I just find you so fascinating.

Payman Langroudi: It’s sad in 2025 [01:47:05] of all the things you’ve brought up, you know.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But it’s just that’s what. That’s why I started following her. Because I [01:47:10] think she’s so incredibly well informed. You can find her at Lala. Let me explain. [01:47:15] I want to finish off talking a little bit about your book. So I read Lala’s book. Um. Block [01:47:20] delete. Move on. I found it quite healing. I’m really. I am really [01:47:25] lucky because.

Payman Langroudi: The gist of it block people, delete people.

Rhona Eskander: No, no, it’s actually about relationships and how [01:47:30] to avoid unhealthy relationships. Because Payman and I have this joke. We once had a [01:47:35] psychic, a psychotherapist, um, who also is like really interested in relationship [01:47:40] dynamics, couples therapy, narcissism, etc. and I was describing how one of my friends [01:47:45] had met some guy, and within a week she’d dropped her life to be with him. And, [01:47:50] you know, got pregnant after like a month and stuff. And he was like. And I was like, I would just never do that. He was like, well, you’d never [01:47:55] have been in love. And I was like, no. Exactly, exactly. And I was like, no, but I’ve done enough work on myself [01:48:00] to know that, like, you know, you have to ask the right questions. You have to be healthy. And [01:48:05] when it was really hard because I had to dismantle a lot because I had the most incredible, loving husband in the world, and [01:48:10] he was the one that, by the way, sent me the post about the, um, about the abortions and [01:48:15] how they’re tracking us. And he’s always like, on my side, but he’s he’s like a healthy masculine, if that makes sense. [01:48:20] It took me a really long time because I also had to, like, move away from the narcissistic, toxic masculinity. [01:48:25] So sometimes it’s like we were talking about you and how you have to be like, pull yourself in, reel [01:48:30] yourself in. This is good, this is healthy. This is safe. And, you know, like Payman was just like, well, when you’re in love, [01:48:35] like all these things, I’m like, I am in love. But that’s the whole point, right? Like when you’re actually dismantling [01:48:40] hard core Hardcore beliefs, and you’re willing to do that for the person you care about. That is [01:48:45] deep love, you know? So I found Lala’s book Really healing, even though I was [01:48:50] already in a relationship at that point because it was like, wow, I’ve done everything right. It was actually really good for me. [01:48:55]

Lala: Are you married?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Lala: Are you in love?

Payman Langroudi: Falling in love was the [01:49:00] phrase. The phrase I used. Yeah. I said you’ve never fall in love. I fell in love. Whatever [01:49:05] it was.

Rhona Eskander: He basically says chaos. And you can’t eat, sleep or drink.

Payman Langroudi: Can you give me five years ago.

Lala: That’s [01:49:10] limerence.

Rhona Eskander: Thank you. I’ll send you the book. I’ll buy you one. Anyway, [01:49:15] what was the hardest chapter for you to write in that book?

Lala: Um, probably the one [01:49:20] about chapter three. I can’t even remember what the chapter is called, but it’s [01:49:25] the one about, um, mental health and attachment [01:49:30] styles and all of that kind of stuff. And purely, it was only the I didn’t find any of [01:49:35] it hard to to write, really, because I had so much to say. I just wanted to put it [01:49:40] all out. But that one was the one that I felt the most under pressure to get right, [01:49:45] because I was writing about things that I’m really supposed to know about, like as a social worker. [01:49:50] And I felt really under pressure to for that to be read. I don’t [01:49:55] know if you feel the same with like, Dental posting Dental things.

Rhona Eskander: Of course, dentists all the time. It’s like if [01:50:00] you feel like you’re kind of claiming to be an expert, you want to make sure you’ve got your like, knowledge and [01:50:05] stats and facts because people could come for you, especially academics, you know?

Lala: It gave me like imposter syndrome kind [01:50:10] of writing that like, am I? Do I know what I’m talking about? It’s like, yeah, you know what you’re talking about.

Payman Langroudi: Advocate [01:50:15] for social workers in your content.

Lala: Yeah, I mean, I try to yeah. [01:50:20]

Rhona Eskander: I think you did like because when the whole Sarah Sharif thing came up, you did because people were so angry with the social [01:50:25] workers. And I think you were very like, I’ve been a social worker. This are things that could have gone wrong. [01:50:30] This is my point of view. This is what this is the pressure they’re under. She does. I wouldn’t say it’s the bulk of your content, but [01:50:35] I think when it comes up relevantly, you do. Yeah. Um, what’s the next book?

Lala: Oh, [01:50:40] well, I don’t know if it’s even going to happen yet. I’m just currently in talks with publishers, but I want to write [01:50:45] a book about a lot of the stuff we’ve been speaking about. Payman is not going to read it. He’s gonna.

Rhona Eskander: You know, [01:50:50] buy it for him.

Lala: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Right.

Lala: Um, I want to write about the [01:50:55] rise of misogyny and how it’s impacting, um, dating and relationships, [01:51:00] particularly among heterosexual people. How are we going? Because everything has changed [01:51:05] since I wrote that book in 2021. Came out in 2022. But actually, things [01:51:10] are significantly different. The gender divide has really grown in that time. [01:51:15] And as you say, we often encounter people who are really lovely. I’ll [01:51:20] be on a date with someone who seems really lovely, and then all of a sudden he’ll say something like, well, [01:51:25] Andrew Tate is such a legend. And I’m like, oh my God, like you think a rapist and [01:51:30] human trafficker is a legend. How are we going to get through this? But it’s happening more and more. I’m getting so many messages [01:51:35] from women almost on a daily basis. My husband has suddenly become a real right [01:51:40] winger. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I was going to say the right wing populism is kind of somehow [01:51:45] intertwined with it’s very misogyny.

Lala: It’s very, very much. It’s all one in the same. If [01:51:50] you hate Muslims and gays and immigrants and, you know, [01:51:55] then you probably don’t like women and you want to be on top of everybody, you know. There’s a lot of narcissism [01:52:00] involved in being a racist or a homophobe or a sexist, because it means [01:52:05] that you think you’re superior to everyone else.

Rhona Eskander: I think you’re right. As like religious extremism [01:52:10] starts to perpetuate society more. We’re more at risk because, you know, people always [01:52:15] are so threatened by Islamic states, Islamic regimes, and they have a right to be. But [01:52:20] I’m like, hang on a second. America is a white supremacist Christian state, and that is equally as dangerous. [01:52:25] You know what I mean? Just because you feel like you can dress and look a certain way, like it is [01:52:30] still dangerous, and we’re seeing that more and more.

Lala: Absolutely.

Rhona Eskander: So obviously everything that you [01:52:35] do is so heavy and you know, it’s incredible. But how do you also [01:52:40] stay positive and keep light and protect your own mental health?

Lala: Oh, I don’t I’m terrible at it. [01:52:45] People people often ask me this and I’m like, I don’t know. I just sort of [01:52:50] like rock back and forth while eating chocolate biscuits and crying. Um, I go to [01:52:55] the gym a lot. Um, I, I, I make sure that pretty [01:53:00] much every single day I do some form of training just to get the endorphins going, [01:53:05] even if it’s just dancing, putting on, I play music.

Rhona Eskander: I was gonna say.

Lala: Music in my ears, and just moving [01:53:10] my body and dancing is really important to me. That movement. I think you can [01:53:15] move stress and trauma through your body a little bit by just moving it out so that that’s [01:53:20] the thing, but I don’t I don’t do enough. I don’t take enough time off work. I don’t [01:53:25] have a great work life balance. I’ve never been able to really achieve [01:53:30] that. So if anyone’s got any tips.

Rhona Eskander: Let me I think it boils down to which would have to be a conversation [01:53:35] for another time as ADHD, which we share together. So that’s the difficult thing, is balance. Thank you [01:53:40] so, so much for people that want to find her. As I said, it’s la la. Let me explain. La la la [01:53:45] la la la. So three laws. Yeah. And what’s the website if you’ve got one. No. [01:53:50] Fine. No more blogging.

Lala: Well, I’m on Patreon.

Rhona Eskander: Yes. Yeah, she’s on Patreon as well. And [01:53:55] as I said, like, her page is my favourite. I’m sure she has to put up with annoying teeth posts because she’s like the [01:54:00] first person that comes up because I watch her content so much. Thank you so much. You really are such an inspiration [01:54:05] and for anyone that is looking to heal traumas and you know, to have great relationship advice, [01:54:10] I highly recommend her book as well.

Lala: I highly recommend you as well. You changed my life and I only [01:54:15] ever show my eyes and my teeth when I do reels. And I cannot tell you how many people, every [01:54:20] time anyone sees my teeth, they’re like, oh my God, who did your teeth? The tooth. [01:54:25]

Rhona Eskander: Fairy. Oh, I love that so much. I’m so glad. Thank you so much again.

Lala: Thank you for having me.