[VOICE] : This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskandar: Hello [00:00:25] everyone! Welcome back to Mind Movers. It’s been almost four [00:00:30] months since I have been sat here. We all know my story. It’s all over the internet, but [00:00:35] I’m really pleased to welcome the most amazing woman with [00:00:40] us today. This is Anne Sophie, who’s also known as Coochie [00:00:45] by Gucci. I don’t know where the names come from, but we’ll ask her. But Anne, Sophie and I had met [00:00:50] in a gym class, and I was particularly interested by her neuroscience background [00:00:55] and also about how she was navigating the wellness space, [00:01:00] but within one a corporate setting and also within a setting of helping [00:01:05] females. I actually went to one of her workshops and there was an incredible female empowerment workshop, so I came out feeling [00:01:10] amazing. Um, I also wanted to [00:01:15] invite Anne Sophie because I believe not only does she blend neuroscience, psychology, [00:01:20] and lived experience in a way that cuts through the noise, but I feel that she’s extremely authentic and [00:01:25] she makes science extremely relatable. So she speaks a lot about attachment, boundaries, self-worth, [00:01:30] nervous system, trauma responses, and I can’t wait to get into it. So welcome, [00:01:35] Anne.

Anne-Sophie : Sophie, thank you so much, both of you, for having me. I’m so happy to be here.

Rhona Eskandar: So, [00:01:40] Anne, Sophie, I want you to tell us a little bit about your background. First of [00:01:45] all.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. So I, um. Never knew what I wanted to do at school or at university. [00:01:50] I actually went to university to study business because I thought, that’s what people [00:01:55] do. They go to university, study business and then do business, [00:02:00] I guess. Um, and I went to my first lecture and it was so boring. I like [00:02:05] completely my brain completely just switched off, and I saw this group of [00:02:10] students walking through to a different lecture centre, and I just decided to tag along and just [00:02:15] drop out of my lecture and see what they were up to. And, um, it happened to be a psychology [00:02:20] lecture and the only books that I’d ever read growing up, I wasn’t really [00:02:25] into novels, wasn’t really into reading much as a child, but I read a lot of psychology books and science books. [00:02:30] And, um, so I sat I sat in this lecture and, um, my, [00:02:35] my, my heart just lit up. I was just all of a sudden so captivated by understanding [00:02:40] the human brain and like, why people behave in certain ways, [00:02:45] why people are prone to depression. And some will never, ever have [00:02:50] that experience in their lives. Or how people navigate going through hardships and difficulties in life. [00:02:55] And I walked up to the professor after the lecture and I told him that I really [00:03:00] enjoyed, um, the session.

Anne-Sophie : And if there was a possibility that I could [00:03:05] change from my business course to psychology and I don’t know, I [00:03:10] don’t know why, but, um, he he did it the next day. [00:03:15] I was, I was a, uh, yeah, in psychology. And it was it turned [00:03:20] out really well, actually, because I had applied for a university where I was pretty [00:03:25] sure that I was going to get in, it was like a safe option. It was Royal Holloway for business. It’s not like one of the best [00:03:30] universities in the UK, but for psychology it was the top seven. [00:03:35] So I ended up then going to a really good university for the topic that I was studying, and everything’s [00:03:40] just kind of gone from there. Um, I feel like I’ve always wanted to understand [00:03:45] people and I wanted to understand myself and my family dynamics. Um, and [00:03:50] then even further to that, understanding the brain. So, so progressing and [00:03:55] doing my master’s and starting my PhD in neuroscience. It was it was more what [00:04:00] is actually happening in the brain when you are feeling this or when you’re doing this. And I [00:04:05] feel like that was a little bit more concrete for me. I’m a very analytical person. And so yeah, from from [00:04:10] there I just kept going with it. Never looked back. And it’s been wonderful.

Payman Langroudi: What was your PhD [00:04:15] on?

Anne-Sophie : So I started my PhD and I quit after about a year and a half. Um, I did [00:04:20] a few different things. We developed an algorithm to alleviate motion sickness in virtual reality headsets. And [00:04:25] this was years ago. So this was at the time where VR was going to be the next big technology. And it [00:04:30] never really took off because you put on a VR headset and people feel sick after a few minutes, actually [00:04:35] happens to women a lot faster than men, but it’s because your visual input doesn’t match your vestibular [00:04:40] input. What your body feels like, what you see doesn’t match where your body feels like it is in space, [00:04:45] and that causes motion sickness. So I published those papers, but [00:04:50] I’d also worked Previously in, um, neuropsychopharmacology. So looking [00:04:55] at the effects of certain drugs and psychedelics on the brain. So I was always kind of like had my hands in different pies, [00:05:00] working in different areas of neuroscience. And I guess that’s why I ended up quitting my PhDs, [00:05:05] because I wasn’t ready to commit to one very specific area [00:05:10] of of science. I’d also been doing stuff with Parkinson’s. So, um, it just [00:05:15] allowed me to, to kind of take that knowledge and put it out into practice in the world of Start-Ups and help [00:05:20] people actually understand their brains.

Rhona Eskandar: So what was it particularly that made you quit the PhD? What [00:05:25] was the kind of point where you’re like, I don’t wanna do this anymore?

Anne-Sophie : Uh, there were a few things, but I was 22 years [00:05:30] old at the time. I had spent my whole life up until that point in academia. Um, [00:05:35] the the year and a half of that, I was doing my PhD and actually the, the year [00:05:40] before, during my master’s, I was sat in the basement [00:05:45] of Charing Cross Hospital in a room with no windows, running [00:05:50] experiments on people earning no money and didn’t have a social life. I [00:05:55] was there on weekends. I just yeah, all of my friends at this point were starting to change careers [00:06:00] and progress into something where they’re earning money and they’re going out and they’re spending money. And meanwhile, I [00:06:05] just I was just so completely removed from that. And I think [00:06:10] I was looking at, you know, the next two years, maybe to finish [00:06:15] the PhD, um, would have been like 25, 26, [00:06:20] maybe still not earning any money, um, missing out on [00:06:25] basically what felt my whole 20s. Yeah. Um, but then also a big part of it was [00:06:30] that this algorithm that we developed, they had we got so much interest from the US Army, [00:06:35] from Samsung, from Oculus, people would come to visit us to try and buy this research.

Anne-Sophie : And I actually spoke [00:06:40] to my professor and I said that we should patent it. Yeah. Instead of selling [00:06:45] it to them, like at a small price, we could probably earn a lot of money if we set up a [00:06:50] company. But if I had stayed at the university, they would have taken 80% of the IP. So I [00:06:55] quit. I became a research assistant, started working at the university, earned [00:07:00] my first salary. It was £1,000 a month, which is also not enough to live on. And [00:07:05] then we started to bootstrap this company, um, this VR company, and obviously with £1,000 [00:07:10] a month that didn’t, didn’t go very well. I think a few months later [00:07:15] I, um, I don’t know, I started baking, uh, [00:07:20] brownies and selling them to the cafe that I lived on top of and tried to earn, like, supplementary [00:07:25] income. And then I was doing, like, ten things at once, and it just. Yeah, just [00:07:30] didn’t work out for me in the end.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay. So obviously there was there’s [00:07:35] always a blessing in that though, right? I find like, you do something and then things don’t take off in the way that you want [00:07:40] and that like kind of propels us into the direction that we want to go. How [00:07:45] are the brownies? Did that business take off.

Anne-Sophie : So so basically the brownies they also it was really it didn’t take [00:07:50] off. It came at a time where I was very interested in health and fitness, because at this point also I became vegan. [00:07:55] Um, and I always had a sweet tooth and I wanted to make sure that I’m still hitting [00:08:00] my macros. So I started making brownies from red beans. Um, and borrowed that [00:08:05] from, uh. I spent a lot of time growing up in Hong Kong. They use red beans a lot for desserts. [00:08:10]

Rhona Eskandar: Love it. Red bean curd cheese. My favourite.

Anne-Sophie : But you can also make brownies. [00:08:15] Did you know from red beans? From courgette? Um, so you get a lot of protein. A lot of fibre. [00:08:20] Sweet potato. Exactly. So I was I was doing that for a while. Um, but. Yeah, just [00:08:25] it was.

Payman Langroudi: So when did you become this Instagram phenomenon?

Rhona Eskandar: Coochie [00:08:30] by Gucci. Explain the name.

Anne-Sophie : It’s not a funny story. Actually, it’s an inside joke. [00:08:35] Um, it was an inside joke from an ex-boyfriend of mine and his his brother, [00:08:40] who has since passed. And. Yeah. And I just [00:08:45] he just, I don’t know, he was spraying this Cologne or something and he’s. And [00:08:50] he said Gucci by Gucci. And I don’t know why it stuck with me. And one day I was like [00:08:55] a little bit tipsy and I changed my Instagram username. I love.

Rhona Eskandar: That.

Anne-Sophie : And then I’ve kept it and it [00:09:00] feels kind of like a bit of an homage. Homage. That’s the word to to him. [00:09:05] Um, but yeah, it’s not there’s there’s.

Rhona Eskandar: Becomes your identity, right? Like [00:09:10] the Instagram it does.

Anne-Sophie : And I’ve tried to change it so many times because I have the verification like it [00:09:15] won’t let me change my username. And I’ve obviously now that I’ve started to post a lot more about [00:09:20] my work and my career, I just I don’t think that it’s very, um, yeah, [00:09:25] relevant to have a username like that. Um, but [00:09:30] at the same time, I knew that. I know that if if it would actually happen, if I changed my username to, you [00:09:35] know, my name or something, I would miss that.

Payman Langroudi: Miss out.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, it’s it is a part [00:09:40] of my identity. And a lot of people call me coochie now or Chooch [00:09:45] or I love it. Yeah. So.

Rhona Eskandar: I mean, I always like, call people by their Instagram names. [00:09:50] So when I was, I was like, oh my God, I’m seeing this girl in my gym class now I’m gonna have to call her coochie, you [00:09:55] know? And. Okay. So was it your social? So we now know [00:10:00] that, you know, you had a really strong start in academia. Mhm. So you completed the psychology degree, [00:10:05] right?

Anne-Sophie : Completed. Psychology degree. Completed my master’s in experimental neuroscience and then [00:10:10] half of my PhD. So I published all of the papers that were required.

Rhona Eskandar: And then and [00:10:15] then was it the Instagram that propelled your career forward. Let’s talk a little bit about that. [00:10:20]

Anne-Sophie : No. So my Instagram was more of a personal thing. I posted a lot about like lifestyle [00:10:25] and just like London. And yeah, it was at the time where everybody [00:10:30] was posting their coffees. Yeah. Instagram in the morning. Yeah. And I built up a little bit of a following, [00:10:35] but it was, it was very much just personal life and like lifestyle things. [00:10:40] And then during the time of Black Lives Matter and all of that. George Floyd, [00:10:45] it became, because I had at that point, I think it was like 60 or [00:10:50] 70,000 followers. I have a lot less now, obviously, like I’ve gone through a bit of a shift in [00:10:55] my persona and everything and what I post about. Um, but during [00:11:00] that time, I felt a responsibility to use that platform [00:11:05] that I had as a voice for people who maybe didn’t have a voice [00:11:10] or as like a means to. Yeah, just fight for social [00:11:15] justice and like, explain the nuances of certain things that were going on. And [00:11:20] it became. I don’t know, I mean, [00:11:25] I know Rona, like you post a lot about really important things as well.

Anne-Sophie : And when you start doing [00:11:30] that a lot, first of all, you do get shadow banned. You do get a lot of people who are then hating on you [00:11:35] or feel like because you’re talking vulnerably about certain issues in the world, they feel [00:11:40] like that they can attack you or why aren’t you talking about X? Or what about so and so? Or why do you hate us? [00:11:45] And it just becomes like a really big zone of like conflict, [00:11:50] I feel like, and I burn out from that a lot and then shut off my Instagram for three, [00:11:55] three years, I think. Wow. Um, because I just couldn’t take it and I couldn’t be part of [00:12:00] that. And I felt like I, I don’t know, it just it it was it was so all consuming. [00:12:05] Um, it’s still an important part of who I am and what I do and what I try [00:12:10] the, the conversations that I try to have with the people around me, but I feel like I do that in a more considered [00:12:15] approach now versus just like shouting out into the abyss. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:20]

Rhona Eskandar: Um, I think you’re right about that. I mean, would you say that in particular because you were so affected [00:12:25] by political world issues? That was a dark time of your life, you know, did you feel that you [00:12:30] were you know, how people can, you know, empaths in particular take on that, those emotions. [00:12:35] Do you feel that perhaps it had put you in a space in your life, or you’re questioning the world or [00:12:40] questioning the way things are?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I think and this is something that I still struggle with quite a lot, [00:12:45] is it’s hard not to let the news consume you. Um, [00:12:50] because what, like a lot of what you see is so awful [00:12:55] that it doesn’t feel right sometimes to live and exist in a world and have your routine and have [00:13:00] your day to day and wake up and have breakfast and take the dogs for a walk and [00:13:05] look up in the sky is blue and I’m not worried about my safety or my security. Um, [00:13:10] and it and then meanwhile, you’re seeing all these images on social media [00:13:15] and the injustices in the world, and you feel like you have no power and you feel like, yeah, [00:13:20] you don’t know how to how to navigate. And sometimes I like I this [00:13:25] happens to me quite a lot. And I need to also still figure out how to [00:13:30] how to navigate it. But I just I lose motivation for anything because [00:13:35] it doesn’t feel right to to carry on with my day to day when I should be [00:13:40] allocating all of my time and all of my resources and all of my attention to other people who are less fortunate. [00:13:45]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, you’re the neuroscientist, right? But, you know, our brain wasn’t designed to [00:13:50] know all the bad news in the world. Yeah, no, the news tends to talk about bad news, right? [00:13:55]

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, it’s a consumption of. It’s the consumption of anything, you know. What was [00:14:00] really interesting, you know, I took a hiatus from social media for three months.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:14:05] did it feel?

Anne-Sophie : So, you know, I was actually, you know, I have to I have to confess, because I started scrolling on [00:14:10] TikTok more because obviously I was like, Instagram. And the thing is, it’s funny because for me, TikTok is much more throwaway content. [00:14:15] So I actually find TikTok less triggering than Instagram. And I think also because Instagram [00:14:20] has more of a community vibe, it was more like people I know or people I’ve had conversations [00:14:25] with. So I found it more uncomfortable and I was like, I need to just stay away from it whilst I was processing, whereas I could just like look at [00:14:30] throwaway content on TikTok, you know, like, let’s analyse this like reality program or whatever it is. [00:14:35] Um, but I think when I came back on social media, there was definitely an aspect [00:14:40] of me feeling more stressed. I definitely felt [00:14:45] that there like three. I was like, God, a lot has changed in three months. There was this real sense [00:14:50] of me not feeling good enough, like I feel like content has become so exaggerated. [00:14:55] Like the notion of perfection, particularly on Instagram, is so extreme. [00:15:00] Like, you know what I mean? Like everyone’s like, you have like a gorgeous, like, pantry and the most [00:15:05] perfect home and the most perfect baby and the most perfect husband, and like, the most perfect [00:15:10] friendships, and you’re suddenly, like, unknowingly comparing your [00:15:15] life to other people, you know? And I feel like it, it it doesn’t. [00:15:20] What it does is, is that it shows us that the values that should be important to humanity [00:15:25] are no longer important. So sometimes I feel myself like shift into this kind of compare [00:15:30] and despair, but also forgetting that the things that when I was off social media, like [00:15:35] that connection with my husband and baby was actually really precious. And those connections with people [00:15:40] in real time and in real life, like even meeting you for coffee that day, you know, in the hospital, [00:15:45] appreciating the flowers that you got me. You know, this is all not done via social media. So I [00:15:50] feel like the connection piece is much stronger when you’re offline.

Payman Langroudi: Changed over the last three months [00:15:55] is the fact that you came out of it and then came back into it. You get conditioned, don’t you, to whatever your [00:16:00] life.

Anne-Sophie : I feel like I feel like content has become more extreme in three months.

Payman Langroudi: No way man.

Anne-Sophie : No, I think in general, I.

Anne-Sophie : Think it’s [00:16:05] constantly.

Anne-Sophie : Becoming more extreme. Um, and it’s also there’s so much of it, like, [00:16:10] there’s you’re never going to catch up with everything. And then because of AI and ChatGPT, everybody [00:16:15] is producing content. Everybody is, you know, has something to say. Everybody is an expert [00:16:20] on exercise.

Payman Langroudi: Your brain when you’re doomscrolling.

Anne-Sophie : Oh, it’s just it’s so your brain.

Anne-Sophie : Is [00:16:25] just on high alert. You’re always scouring the environment for any bit of information that you can have [00:16:30] a reactive thought to. And you’re just first of all, there’s the dopamine hit of [00:16:35] it where you’re exposing yourself to so many different dopamine hits that your tolerance [00:16:40] starts to get a lot higher. So, um, day to day activities that [00:16:45] used to be pleasurable to you, it could happen that it’s you don’t really see as much value in it. [00:16:50] Um, and so that’s.

Rhona Eskandar: What I.

Anne-Sophie : Mean, right. Is that is that how you kind of felt because I, when I came off Instagram [00:16:55] for, for those three years, it was a struggle to get back on Instagram. That’s how I felt. I really [00:17:00] didn’t want to I felt such a resistance. But then also the relationships. I had [00:17:05] so many Instagram friends and so, you know, and everybody was keeping me up to date with everything. And everybody was, [00:17:10] um, inviting me to things and parties. And as soon as I shut down my Instagram, I [00:17:15] was sharing just pictures via WhatsApp with the people who you just you find out [00:17:20] who is really close to you. Right? And I wasn’t being invited to as many social events and like, [00:17:25] I was completely out of the loop with London life and whatever, but the things [00:17:30] that I was being invited to, I knew that the people really wanted me there. I knew that they had thought of me. And they’re [00:17:35] like, this is somebody who needs to come or she’s not on Instagram. I can’t just like put a post up. They really [00:17:40] thought about me. And so those relationships in real life did become a lot closer and more [00:17:45] special. And then coming back into Instagram and liking everybody’s stuff and, you [00:17:50] know, people that you’d been friends with, but now you realise it was just an internet friendship. Um, [00:17:55] it just feels different. It feels so. Yeah, not it doesn’t feel [00:18:00] real in a way.

Payman Langroudi: Have you heard about that phenomenon where when they’re making TV shows, they’re making the [00:18:05] plots a lot simpler? Yes, because it’s a second screen. They [00:18:10] know everyone’s on there.

Rhona Eskandar: I was with a friend of mine that was saying, yeah, like definitely the gone are the days of even [00:18:15] series, you know, TV series where you’d have like a really intricate, intricately detailed [00:18:20] episode because people’s attention span, as you said. And that’s why reality TV shows [00:18:25] is such an easy way to get that dopamine.

Payman Langroudi: People are literally on their phones [00:18:30] whilst watching. Watching.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. So they script.

Anne-Sophie : Them to make it really easy to follow because otherwise [00:18:35] you won’t continue to watch because they already expect.

Anne-Sophie : That you’re going to be.

Anne-Sophie : On your phone on TikTok.

Rhona Eskandar: So [00:18:40] Anne, Sophie, tell me as well how the neuroscience piece actually fits in with the psychology [00:18:45] piece. So I’d like to know from an academic point of view, the degrees are different. And [00:18:50] or did you interweave them? How did that work?

Anne-Sophie : So I started off with a foundational [00:18:55] degree in psychology. So an undergraduate and in the last year. So that’s three years. In the last year I [00:19:00] had a sort of major, that’s not what you call it in the UK. And I did go.

Rhona Eskandar: To university [00:19:05] in the UK for masters. Right.

Payman Langroudi: No majors like the main subject.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Like, yeah. The main subjects [00:19:10] that I was doing was more weighted to the biology of psychology. So this [00:19:15] is kind of like neuroscience. Basically it’s what’s happening in the brain when [00:19:20] you are um, all of the things that you look at when, when you have a psychology degree, [00:19:25] like when if you’re depressed, if you’re anxious, if you have Alzheimer’s, if you have Parkinson’s, all [00:19:30] of these things, what’s actually happening in the brain versus how is it manifesting in [00:19:35] social settings? Um, and from there, I had [00:19:40] this guest lecture from Professor David Nutt, who is this.

Anne-Sophie : Top.

Anne-Sophie : Neuropsychopharmacologist? He’s [00:19:45] amazing. And he wrote a book called Drugs Without the Hot Air. And [00:19:50] it was all about how drugs actually affect the brain and the body. And it was also a [00:19:55] critique on the classification system that we have here in the UK with what is a class A, class B, class C [00:20:00] drug? And he famously got sacked from the government. He was working in government on [00:20:05] drug legislations, and he got sacked because he published a paper that said that horseback riding [00:20:10] is more dangerous to the person, to society. It is more costly on [00:20:15] the NHS. Um, there are more risks associated with it than taking ecstasy. [00:20:20] And he said that therefore ecstasy should not be class A, it should be class C, and [00:20:25] obviously with the government that we have, that’s obviously that’s never something that’s going to be accepted.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. And [00:20:30] so they sacked him.

Anne-Sophie : And so he became this kind of I’ve always had this this thing for [00:20:35] these academic but socially. Um I [00:20:40] don’t know just daring types. Um, a lot of the books [00:20:45] that I read growing up were from Timothy Leary, who was a Harvard Harvard psychologist as well, [00:20:50] or Harvard psychologist, and he also experimented with psychedelics [00:20:55] and took his students to this, uh, like [00:21:00] a lost mansion somewhere outside of the city. And they would take psychedelics [00:21:05] and they would, you know, write about it and figure out, like, what’s happening.

Payman Langroudi: Um, while we’re on it, [00:21:10] what happens? What does happen when you take a.

Rhona Eskandar: We’ve had lots of we’ve had don’t pretend [00:21:15] we’ve.

Rhona Eskandar: Had.

Payman Langroudi: In the brain. In the brain. Yeah. Um, in the brain. What if you go on ayahuasca.

Rhona Eskandar: And [00:21:20] we’ve had lots of, like, we’ve had Louis Blake, who’s been in on a guest here as well, who’s also [00:21:25] a vegan and massive pioneer of.

Rhona Eskandar: Also a.

Rhona Eskandar: Vegan of psychedelics. [00:21:30] We’ve also had Simon Salter and Andy, who work with Non-psychedelic [00:21:35] mushrooms, obviously with dirty. Yeah. So we’ve had some interesting conversations with people [00:21:40] that have discussed this. I’m a huge advocate of psychedelic therapy, [00:21:45] uh, within therapeutic legal realms, etc. and I think that huge advancements [00:21:50] have been made. There is oh, what’s his name? There is Christian Anglemyer [00:21:55] as well, who I love, who talks has put a lot of money with mental health and mushrooms etc. [00:22:00] but yeah, we’d love to know from the neuroscience point of view how [00:22:05] it benefits.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : So I mean, there are so many different things and also depends on the substance that you’re talking about.

Anne-Sophie : But [00:22:10] psilocybin was so, so well. Um, well, so I had this guest.

Anne-Sophie : Lecture from, from [00:22:15] Professor David Nutt. And this was as I was ending my psychology degree, and I remember I didn’t really know what to do afterwards [00:22:20] because I was like, oh, I just did a psychology degree. Like, what do I do now? I can’t go into practice. I’m not a psychologist yet. [00:22:25] Um, but I emailed him and I said, can I do my masters with you? I’m really interested in the work that [00:22:30] you’re doing. And so I applied. He showed me like, how to apply and what to do and, and, um, [00:22:35] applied and ended up getting a master’s and was able to be [00:22:40] in a rotation with him. So I was able to work directly with Professor David Nutt. And during [00:22:45] this time they did the first ever study of, um, what [00:22:50] happens in a human brain, like looking at the brain through MRI, diffusion, [00:22:55] diffusion, tensor imaging, um, where you can see all the neural pathways and [00:23:00] connections. So what’s happening in a brain when somebody is taking psychedelics? And it [00:23:05] was it was actually incredible because it’s the first time that you’re seeing into [00:23:10] somebody’s brain. And what they found was that there [00:23:15] are parts of the brains that are previously not connected because you [00:23:20] think in a kind of a rational way. So you have areas that, um, that wire together, they fire together, [00:23:25] and you kind of lose on on that childlike creativity because you’re not using those [00:23:30] neural pathways. You’re not connecting different parts of your brain. But when you’re taking psychedelics, your [00:23:35] brain resembles more of a childlike state. So you have more connections [00:23:40] between areas that are disparate. So areas that usually don’t communicate are now [00:23:45] communicating. And it’s why you have that greater sense of creativity, or you have these aha [00:23:50] moments, or you see things in a new way because you have a new angle [00:23:55] to them. Um, yeah. So the brain is just more connected.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay. But I’ve got a question for you. [00:24:00] So obviously my parents are very much the era that are against those psychedelics [00:24:05] in particular. Interestingly, my mom went to Berkeley in the 70s, and [00:24:10] there was this notion of people like jumping off buildings and doing things like that. And [00:24:15] obviously you understand from a psychedelic point of view that, you know, perhaps the person [00:24:20] didn’t have the intention of doing that, was seeing things, believed they could fly, etc. but I think [00:24:25] what is interesting is.

Payman Langroudi: Berkeley in the 70s was the front and centre of psychedelics. [00:24:30]

Rhona Eskandar: Yes, I’m saying so my mom was against it because there were people jumping off buildings, dying, etc. [00:24:35] so my mom thought it created like severe episodes of psychosis. So my question [00:24:40] is, when those severe episodes of psychosis can happen chemically in the [00:24:45] brain, do you think it’s because they’ve had such an underlying like undiagnosed mental health problem [00:24:50] or they’ve got they were on antidepressants and.

Payman Langroudi: I reckon it was a conspiracy to stop people taking [00:24:55] it. But there was.

Rhona Eskandar: Some there are some people that can have psychotic episodes on psychedelics, for sure. I’ve heard it, yeah. [00:25:00]

Payman Langroudi: How many people jumped off a building, man?

Rhona Eskandar: Okay, well, so it is. It is true. It is.

Anne-Sophie : So it is [00:25:05] true. And there’s probably.

Anne-Sophie : So many more people that are better suited to speak to these topics, because this is [00:25:10] for me, you know, when I was 22, when I was working, working in this field and 31 now. Um, so [00:25:15] it’s been some time. But it is true that certain people can have manic [00:25:20] episodes. It is. It really depends. And they probably have some underlying, uh, [00:25:25] psychological issues that they haven’t dealt with or that they are undiagnosed. Um, [00:25:30] but there are those people might not be suitable for the kind of clinical trials that you’re seeing with certain psychedelics [00:25:35] or other substances. Um, right now. Um, but also, you are right [00:25:40] that it, it got a lot of bad press and, um, I [00:25:45] think they, they took individual stories from people who would do crazy things or who would [00:25:50] have accidents, and they would just amplify them to create, create fear and anxiety [00:25:55] because they were really trying to, uh, get a hold on the [00:26:00] psychedelic movement and, and kind of dim it down.

Payman Langroudi: Who is that mass murderer [00:26:05] that, um, it turned out that the CIA were. Who [00:26:10] was the one that they were all hippies going around killing people. Yeah. And [00:26:15] Ted.

Rhona Eskandar: Not Ted Bundy.

Payman Langroudi: No.

Anne-Sophie : No, it was like a cult kind [00:26:20] of cult.

Payman Langroudi: I forget, I forget.

Payman Langroudi: The guy’s name, but, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It turned out the CIA was was was training [00:26:25] him to drug up these hippies to go kill people. And it turned out like there’s [00:26:30] a whole book on it. And the idea was to make the hippie movement seem like a dangerous [00:26:35] movement.

Rhona Eskandar: Listen, listen, if you read the book on how to change your mind, which a lot of people have read, [00:26:40] it’s quite clear. And that’s written by a doctor. Was he a doctor or a psychotherapist anyway? [00:26:45] Someone that’s extremely credible has input from other doctors. They know that it was a political [00:26:50] decision. Nixon wanted all of these people to go and fight in the Vietnam War. Psychedelics [00:26:55] had got into the hands of laypeople there like love and light. We want we want to hug trees. [00:27:00] We’re not going off to kill people. So then Nixon’s like, it’s the most dangerous thing was a political decision. [00:27:05] And we know that. Yeah. I want to move on a little bit. Anne. Sophie. Um, [00:27:10] into kind of like. So we’ve had the beginning of your studies and the beginning of your life. I [00:27:15] want to know as well, though, with how profoundly did the [00:27:20] understandings of what you had studied had an effect on your life? [00:27:25] So what I mean by that is, did you go through any hardships or anything like that that you want [00:27:30] to possibly share that allowed you kind of to use what you knew and implement? [00:27:35]

Anne-Sophie : I think the the story is always that people study psychology because they [00:27:40] try to understand themselves first and foremost or their families. And I think that [00:27:45] probably rings true to me. Um, because I didn’t always [00:27:50] have I wasn’t always the person that I am today, and I didn’t always have a really positive outlook on life. And like [00:27:55] if, if you ask me how I feel day to day now I’m, you know, I wake up in the morning, I’m grateful. [00:28:00] And I look around and I take pictures of the leaves because I think that the colours are so vivid. [00:28:05] Right? And there’s just so much to to be happy about and to be excited [00:28:10] about. And I, I genuinely feel [00:28:15] so grateful for for myself, for being in the headspace that I’m in now, [00:28:20] because I know that it wasn’t always like that. And I definitely struggled with my mental health a lot, especially as a teenager. [00:28:25] Um, I didn’t feel, you know, like I was [00:28:30] really part of my family. I felt like a bit of an outsider. I felt even with my friendship groups, like, I never [00:28:35] really connected to people in the way that I wanted to, or just always [00:28:40] felt like I was a bit alone in the world.

Rhona Eskandar: Were you an introvert?

Anne-Sophie : I think that’s [00:28:45] difficult because I.

Anne-Sophie : I would say that I’m more introverted even now, but I [00:28:50] but I am also very extroverted. Um, I just need time to recoup. [00:28:55] And I need a lot of time alone to to just, like, um, fill up [00:29:00] my social battery, I would say. But as a kid, no, I think I was very, [00:29:05] like, happy and colourful and wanted to love and connect [00:29:10] with people, but then also always felt that there was a barrier, you know. And I, um, [00:29:15] and I, and I ended up feeling very alone. Um.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:29:20] so what was the unlock then?

Anne-Sophie : So the.

Anne-Sophie : Unlock and.

Anne-Sophie : This the.

Anne-Sophie : Crazy thing and the reason [00:29:25] why I talk about this so much now and why it’s like so much of what I do on social media is because even [00:29:30] while I was studying psychology and the neuroscience and then getting, you know, on my [00:29:35] third degree, um, I knew so much about the [00:29:40] brain and I still didn’t realise, and nobody had ever told me that [00:29:45] I can actually change my brain. That was never part of the curriculum. That was never [00:29:50] part of what was discussed. It was like, oh, if you have depression, this is what’s happening in your brain. These are some of [00:29:55] the reasons why people can be depressed. It can be, um, genetic. It can be, um, like [00:30:00] there’s always that nature or nurture conversation. And that’s really the extent of it. And if somebody is depressed, [00:30:05] what can you do? Well, you can have drug interventions, or you can have therapy, or you can have a mixture of both, [00:30:10] which usually has the best outcomes. It has probably [00:30:15] something to do with serotonin. And so you can really understand it on that, um, intellectual level. [00:30:20] And I think that’s what I did a lot of my life is I intellectualised myself and my feelings and my emotions [00:30:25] and my situation, and I felt like that was giving me a bit of power in understanding [00:30:30] myself because I just intellectualised everything.

Anne-Sophie : But it really wasn’t [00:30:35] until very late on in my studies that I, um, [00:30:40] I came across meditation, and the first [00:30:45] time I came across it, I was like, yeah, everybody’s like starting to meditate now because they want to sleep better or they want stress reduction [00:30:50] or whatever. Maybe it can help with emotional regulation. So okay, fine, I’ll [00:30:55] try it. But I wasn’t really convinced. And then I started reading about the science of [00:31:00] meditation and looking at what happens when you put a monk in an MRI machine, somebody who’s meditated for [00:31:05] years. How is their brain structurally different? What are the pathways like? What has changed for this [00:31:10] person? What is actually happening when you’re meditating because you come across meditation? Oftentimes you think [00:31:15] that it’s just about sitting cross-legged and finding nirvana, right? And just like exiting space [00:31:20] and time and just getting to like accessing this higher state. And it’s just it’s not that at all. [00:31:25] It’s just learning how to focus your brain.

Rhona Eskandar: Which is impossible for ADHD.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. It’s [00:31:30] hard. And yeah, it’s it’s hard. But like you start to I started to to look at these studies [00:31:35] and look at what’s actually different in people’s brains when they meditate. And [00:31:40] all of a sudden it clicked for me. I [00:31:45] can change my brain.

Payman Langroudi: I saw an organic route to to the situation.

Anne-Sophie : Absolutely. Because [00:31:50] before I was like, I just I just have this outlook on life that bad things are always going to keep happening to [00:31:55] me. I’m just going to go through one hardship, then the next. I’m never really going to be satisfied. I’m just [00:32:00] like a passenger in my life. Um, my dad would always describe me. He’s like, [00:32:05] you’re like a cork that’s floating in the ocean. I’m always fine. And. But I’m just going with the [00:32:10] flow and like, no matter what happens to me, I’ll be fine. And I can intellectualise everything. And, [00:32:15] you know.

Rhona Eskandar: When did that change?

Anne-Sophie : It changed when I started meditating.

Rhona Eskandar: How old were you?

Anne-Sophie : Um, [00:32:20] maybe 22 years old. 23.

Rhona Eskandar: It was at the beginning of your.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. It [00:32:25] was. It was kind of at the end of my studies and at the beginning of, like, my life and taking [00:32:30] this work and actually making it accessible and using what I know to help [00:32:35] people understand themselves and their brains. Not just that, but also change their brains. Because I realised [00:32:40] that after all of these years of studying and in academia, and surrounded by some of [00:32:45] the best and most brilliant minds who understand the brain on a level that you can’t even imagine, nobody [00:32:50] is telling me that I can be a happier person.

Rhona Eskandar: And do you [00:32:55] say, do you think so? Since you had that light bulb moment, would you say extraordinary things have [00:33:00] started to happen in your life?

Anne-Sophie : Extraordinary and even just the minuscule [00:33:05] things are extraordinary for me. It’s extraordinary for me to wake up and think that anything is [00:33:10] possible, and that I’m just one decision away from a better life. Um, and I know that [00:33:15] that’s something that’s easier said than done. If you’re speaking to somebody who’s going through a really tough time, and it might be a [00:33:20] lot of external factors or internally or chemical imbalances or just financial [00:33:25] situations that they can’t get out of or, um, you know, being in abusive [00:33:30] situations where it’s dangerous to leave. It’s it’s easy to say, well, just make a [00:33:35] decision and leave that situation or like, change your life. But but it it really [00:33:40] can start with the smallest shift in mindset of just understanding [00:33:45] that there is a possibility you do just need to do something, and it can [00:33:50] be the smallest thing in the beginning.

Rhona Eskandar: An example because I think for people that listen [00:33:55] or struggle with those small changes, especially because, you know, Payman and I often talk on this podcast, our careers [00:34:00] are very prescriptive, right? Dentistry is very prescriptive. Career. Social media has allowed [00:34:05] people to kind of tap in into that entrepreneurial space, and there are more people putting themselves out [00:34:10] there and changing the trajectory, etc. but I’d say most people feel really stuck, particularly [00:34:15] if they feel like their life’s been mapped out in the way that they’ve imagined, you know? So what would [00:34:20] you say are the easiest things to practice? If you do want to change something [00:34:25] in your life, whether that’s like relationships, career or something that, you know, [00:34:30] you look at that person and you think, how did they get so lucky? But you can actually apply it to your own life. [00:34:35]

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, it’s really difficult because it’ll be so different for everyone. But I think nothing [00:34:40] can change without there first being awareness that something needs [00:34:45] to change. Because a lot of the time, and I think this is also true for myself, is that I just went with whatever [00:34:50] was happening. I knew that I wasn’t really satisfied with my life, but I also didn’t know what [00:34:55] I wanted or how I imagined a better life would look like. So I spend [00:35:00] a lot of time visualising my future and where do I want to be? How do I want [00:35:05] my life to look? And instead of wallowing in in kind of this is where I’m now and I’m [00:35:10] not satisfied with it. And you know, you can you can kind of stay in that mindset [00:35:15] forever. It’s like things are just crappy and whatever. But if [00:35:20] you if you shift that and you look out for like, okay, well, if this isn’t what I imagined my [00:35:25] life should be, what is it? And sometimes it’s sometimes [00:35:30] it’s difficult. And people are like, learn in different ways. If you’re a visual learner, you can make like a mood [00:35:35] board or you can visualise it right.

Payman Langroudi: Like difficult to say, you know, what is the thing? [00:35:40] Because sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever read a book twice or watched a film twice or something, and [00:35:45] you get totally different things out of it based on where you’re at.

Rhona Eskandar: But I think but I think.

Rhona Eskandar: This is the [00:35:50] thing I think it would be helpful. Like even if it was just like three points, you know, just to understand [00:35:55] because.

Payman Langroudi: I found that you know what you’re talking about. There is agency over. [00:36:00] Yeah, over your own situation.

Rhona Eskandar: Like you said. But the thing.

Rhona Eskandar: Is, I think also importantly is that at [00:36:05] different points of your life, you want different things. And I think that’s the and that’s particularly [00:36:10] important when it comes to relationships, isn’t it? Because that’s where commitment really [00:36:15] shows, I feel, because when you say that you want to be, for example, with a certain type of person and [00:36:20] it feels like there’s real alignment when you meet that person, it’s what you wanted at that time. [00:36:25] But the funny thing is about relationships is that if you do believe in marriage, you’re committed [00:36:30] for the rest of your life. Does that make sense? So you’re that commitment includes like when you’re evolving as [00:36:35] a person, your needs and the things you want will change inevitably. Does that make sense? [00:36:40] And that’s why I always say relationships are like a continuous recommitment to each other all the time, [00:36:45] because you can’t expect them to always be like evolving and changing as [00:36:50] you are, because you’re dealing with two like human beings with different thoughts and values [00:36:55] and wants. Do you know what I mean? That makes sense.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, but I feel like you. Then you have to. Also, [00:37:00] if you want that longevity, choose somebody who you know is going to love [00:37:05] you at your core and accept you in all of your different stages, and also [00:37:10] allow you to change your mind and shift and, and just I think it’s also very much [00:37:15] about having respect that that person will change, but you have to trust that they will change for the better [00:37:20] of themselves and for the better of the relationship. Um.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, the basic [00:37:25] principles have to align and the basic principles base don’t change. [00:37:30] You know, the very basic principles, let’s say I believe in fairness or whatever, something like [00:37:35] that. Yeah. Those have to align. Those don’t tend to change. Then you have to accept other things [00:37:40] will change.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay.

Payman Langroudi: And in a way other things should be in sort of opposition. [00:37:45] You know, if, if, if your, your husband’s better in, in night you should be [00:37:50] better in the morning. You know like if you’re disorganised. You should be organised, you know.

Anne-Sophie : That [00:37:55] describes it perfectly.

Payman Langroudi: But those people, opposites do attract for that reason, right?

Rhona Eskandar: So the question [00:38:00] is then do you think I mean onto from payments point, do you think that people’s values at [00:38:05] the core can change.

Anne-Sophie : So this is interesting because we talk about this a lot in terms of the brain. People [00:38:10] used to think that your brain was, um, just fixed and you had a fixed mindset and [00:38:15] you had a fixed personality. Um, and we’re actually finding out that you obviously can change your brain through things like meditation [00:38:20] or life experiences and, um, psychedelics, [00:38:25] actually, psychedelics are one of the things that are is, is going to have a huge impact on [00:38:30] some of your personality traits, which are typically, um, a little bit [00:38:35] more rigid. Uh, so you have like state and trait, um, and your state [00:38:40] is kind of how you, how you are at a present moment or how you are with something [00:38:45] in a situational factor. Um, and then the trait is something that, uh, [00:38:50] accompanies you longer through life. So this is something that really defines [00:38:55] you. Typically it doesn’t change too much. Um, it could [00:39:00] be like political outlook or something like that. But um, psychedelics [00:39:05] actually do, cause in one setting, like quite a significant [00:39:10] shift in some of your personality traits. Um, and [00:39:15] that’s interesting. And that’s why it’s also really important for therapeutic things. Because if you if you have [00:39:20] a tendency to see things in a negative way, that’s something that could really open your mind. [00:39:25] Um, but yeah, I.

Rhona Eskandar: The [00:39:30] core values.

Anne-Sophie : Core values, I think they, I think it really depends on what you go through. [00:39:35] It could be trauma, like a big trauma could [00:39:40] cause such an immediate shift in who you are and, like, open up different [00:39:45] parts of your brain where you’re like, wow, I see things completely differently now, day to day. It’s not going [00:39:50] to have that much of a of a shift. But like any, any big life experiences [00:39:55] will be able to facilitate that trauma. Psychedelics. Um, and [00:40:00] yeah, just a big loss or a big move, [00:40:05] for example.

Rhona Eskandar: Which brings me on to another question. What’s the biggest misconception that people have about [00:40:10] their own emotional reactions?

Anne-Sophie : I think people think that that’s quite fixed. [00:40:15] I think they feel like they are powerless first of all, over their emotions and their reactions. [00:40:20] And then I also think, um, that they [00:40:25] feel like their emotions are a valid and [00:40:30] true indicator of how things are, when it’s really it’s [00:40:35] just a reflection of where you’re at at that time, or all the things that you’ve learned. [00:40:40] Yeah, or experienced in your life. Um, not all of the thoughts that you have are true. [00:40:45] Not all of the feelings that you have are valid, and it’s really important to be [00:40:50] able to relate to your thoughts and relate to your feelings and evaluate them critically. Because a lot of people [00:40:55] think, well, this person’s done this and I feel upset, I have a right to be upset. You might [00:41:00] be upset because of something that you’re not even aware of that’s happened to you in the past. That person never meant to do [00:41:05] anything to upset you. You have this reaction. You feel justified in your reaction. Now you’re cutting [00:41:10] them off, or you’re making decisions that aren’t actually beneficial for you. You’re not connecting with that person. You’re not connecting with [00:41:15] yourself. But I think too much of the time people just yeah, you just go with, [00:41:20] with with your thoughts and your feelings and I don’t think that’s healthy.

Rhona Eskandar: Do you think that we’ve become a society [00:41:25] that is overindulging in our emotions? So [00:41:30] what I mean by that is, is, you know, people now [00:41:35] want to validate everything they feel and their response and the way the person has [00:41:40] made them feel that, you know, almost indulging or over [00:41:45] Analysing in that emotion is not necessarily a good thing for us.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, [00:41:50] but I think things are changing. I mean, it really depends like what funnel [00:41:55] you’re down in, like especially if you look on TikTok and on social media, because you have people who are like [00:42:00] talking about each one of those things. You have people who are like, uh, practice [00:42:05] non-judgment detachment from everything, and then you have the people who are like, every [00:42:10] feeling is an indication of something and go with this and trust that. And you have a right to feel x, [00:42:15] y, z. But I think if you look at it from like academically and how we’ve evolved in [00:42:20] terms of how we understand the brain and how we treat the brain and the human condition, is that you come from a place of [00:42:25] everything has meaning. So this is like Freudian, Jungian kind of theory [00:42:30] where it’s like even your dreams have meaning. Even those the most obscure thoughts are trying [00:42:35] to tell you something. And then we go into, um, uh, cognitive [00:42:40] behavioural therapy and it’s like, okay, you have these thoughts, critically analyse them. Um, [00:42:45] like, what is this thought trying to tell me? Where does this stem from? Is [00:42:50] this something that I’ve experienced in my life? And now I see things this way. Is there any [00:42:55] truth to it? And so you’re starting to analyse it a little bit more critically. And then I think now we’re moving [00:43:00] into more of a space that’s occupied by mindfulness [00:43:05] meditation. And now you’re looking at your thoughts without [00:43:10] judging them and you’re looking at a thought and it’s, it’s the the messaging is not [00:43:15] every thought that I have is true. Not every thought that I have is important. So you’re moving from a place of everything [00:43:20] is important. And I have to understand and intellectualise everything to is it [00:43:25] true? Is it not true? What is it trying to tell me to like now? Doesn’t matter if it’s true. It doesn’t [00:43:30] matter if it’s a good thought or a bad thought.

Rhona Eskandar: I think I saw a post the other day. Um, it was [00:43:35] really, really great. And it was like I broke up with the spiritual community. Have you seen that post? [00:43:40]

Anne-Sophie : No, but I was.

Rhona Eskandar: Like, I broke up with the spiritual community and here’s why. [00:43:45] And in the post, she’s like, at first it was so enticing. She was like the cacao ceremonies, the [00:43:50] sitting around the fire talking about your feelings. And she goes, but then I realised that all these people were talking [00:43:55] about creativity, but no one was producing. And then I realised that, you know, people [00:44:00] were not being honest and like life is, if you look at even like Mother Nature, about animals, about [00:44:05] evolution, you know, it’s about putting yourself through discomfort to move forward. And I thought [00:44:10] it was really interesting because I was thinking, you know, we have become that to like a bit too, like Kumbaya in [00:44:15] a way where we’re like, we can’t offend each other and we can’t put ourselves through any trauma [00:44:20] because it’s going to affect us really badly.

Anne-Sophie : Classifying ourselves and our emotions and other people. [00:44:25]

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, exactly. And then and then us all sitting around validating that together, holding hands. [00:44:30] Trump. Trump.

Payman Langroudi: Trump’s in charge now. Those things. Things have changed.

Rhona Eskandar: You’re extreme now. Like you don’t [00:44:35] need to.

Payman Langroudi: Have you ever been in a float tank?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: I really want to go.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Have [00:44:40] you done it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I’ve done lots.

Rhona Eskandar: Where is one?

Payman Langroudi: There was in Wandsworth, but now it’s closed down.

Anne-Sophie : There’s [00:44:45] one in Vauxhall.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Vauxhall works. Yeah, yeah. Have you been one in West.

Payman Langroudi: London Bridge.

Anne-Sophie : As well? There must be one [00:44:50] in West Wandsworth.

Payman Langroudi: There was just. It just closed down.

Rhona Eskandar: That’s not west, babes.

Payman Langroudi: Yes. West enough. [00:44:55] But what I found, it was real. Unlock for me insomuch as, um. You know what you’re [00:45:00] saying about, uh, meditation. Yeah. I could never understand. I could never even. I got [00:45:05] it, but I just never really felt. But in a float tank, you can. Yeah. And the [00:45:10] thing for me, that sort of switched my brain to it. Was that [00:45:15] okay? You’re trying to meditate? Some thought comes in your head. Yeah. And the really important thing [00:45:20] is to not feel the feeling of that thought. The feeling? Yeah, that’s [00:45:25] really important because, you know, we naturally just let’s say the thought is some patients [00:45:30] suing me. Yeah. Okay. That’s patients suing me. Don’t feel it. See [00:45:35] it but don’t feel it. Yeah. And I don’t know why. An hour in the tank, I. Suddenly it [00:45:40] was like a ha moment for me.

Rhona Eskandar: It’s like a deep meditation. I’ll tell you where I get it. [00:45:45] And I think you probably agree that most people is actually with massages. I go into [00:45:50] that state in a massage where, like, I’m not asleep, but like you said, like I have [00:45:55] thoughts, but they’re not necessarily thoughts that I feel like I need to react with. It’s [00:46:00] almost like I’m observing the thoughts as they kind of move through my body. I don’t know why, but a massage [00:46:05] does that for me.

Payman Langroudi: It gives. Something happened in my brain because after a float [00:46:10] one hour float for about 7 or 8 hours after that, I’m a totally different person. You [00:46:15] know, something’s going on. Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : I mean, it could be like accessing this deep state [00:46:20] of relaxation where you’re not. Because I think when you are, when you’re having a conversation and you’re [00:46:25] hyper aware of everything, like it’s so easy to just get caught up in these thoughts because your brain is just on. [00:46:30] Yeah. Um, but that is I mean, I think that is such a powerful thing that people don’t realise is like, you can’t have a [00:46:35] thought or a feeling come up and you just need to label it. It’s like, oh, that’s a thought that I’m having. [00:46:40] That’s a feeling. And then you kind of just let it go and you just wait for whatever comes up next. And it’s [00:46:45] a really good exercise in understanding the emotional, um.

Anne-Sophie : Like [00:46:50] landscape of.

Anne-Sophie : Your. Yeah, of your of your brain and your body. It’s like, what are the kind of thoughts [00:46:55] that I’m having where like, what does this tell me about where I’m at? Am I focussed, am I [00:47:00] generally happy? Like, do I need to like, figure something out? Do I need to.

Anne-Sophie : Get back into my routine?

Payman Langroudi: The [00:47:05] difference between you and your thoughts, the separation of you and your thoughts. Whereas [00:47:10] day to day you’re just thinking every thought is me.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, but that’s Eckhart Tolle. That’s like the whole premise [00:47:15] of his book, basically.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but in the tank it becomes so obvious.

Rhona Eskandar: You sold the [00:47:20] tank, you sold the.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so obvious, man. You don’t even know whether you’re okay.

Rhona Eskandar: I’m gonna book it, and I’m gonna. I’m gonna keep you. I’m [00:47:25] gonna. Is it dark?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Completely beside body temperature. Completely pitch.

Rhona Eskandar: Black. Yeah. It’s [00:47:30] it’s a sensory deprivation tank. Yeah. It’s like a.

Rhona Eskandar: It’s a warm.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It’s body temperature. [00:47:35] Body temperature with a cover on it.

Rhona Eskandar: Okay.

Anne-Sophie : So the idea is.

Anne-Sophie : That is that you’re depriving [00:47:40] yourself of all of the senses, and it’s supposed to be almost like a womb, like, uh, state. [00:47:45] So the it’s salt water. So you’re floating and the water is your body temperature, so you [00:47:50] don’t notice that it’s warm or cold. It’s just body temperature. And, um, and there’s no light, [00:47:55] there’s no stimulus. And what, what what happens then in the brain is that when you remove all of those, [00:48:00] uh, that sensory information, you just you have so much more access.

Payman Langroudi: I feel like.

Payman Langroudi: For the first [00:48:05] ten minutes, you start hearing sounds and things because your brain just wants it, wants something, you know, [00:48:10] and for about five, ten minutes, it’s you’re all over the place, and then suddenly it’s like. [00:48:15] It’s really interesting.

Rhona Eskandar: Interesting. I want to ask you, though, as well, I mean, with the brain, do [00:48:20] you think that the brain can tell the difference between trauma, intuition [00:48:25] and anxiety when it comes to your response?

Anne-Sophie : It’s I [00:48:30] think this is such a good question, because a lot of the symptoms of these things are the same. [00:48:35] So it’ll be like elevated heart rate, pupils dilating, dry mouth, [00:48:40] maybe tension somewhere in your shoulders. And it’s it’s it’s going to [00:48:45] be hard to distinguish what is intuition. What is a trauma response and what is [00:48:50] what is anything. But I think meditation really helps with that. You can start [00:48:55] to, once you start to scan through your body and notice how you feel in a given situation, or how you feel about a [00:49:00] certain thought or a feeling, you become so much more able to pick up on, um, how [00:49:05] does anxiety show up for me? How does fear show up for me, and how is it different to anxiety? Because [00:49:10] on the surface level, it might have a lot of the same symptoms, but the more [00:49:15] you actually practice understanding how it shows up for you as an individual, the more if [00:49:20] something happens, you can now identify it quicker. You’re like, oh, that’s not fear, that’s [00:49:25] anxiety. Um, or that’s not, um, you know, I there’s [00:49:30] just so much more nuance. Um, but I also think that it’s it’s interesting because [00:49:35] sometimes these things will show up in similar ways, and it is just a question of how you reason [00:49:40] with yourself what it is.

Anne-Sophie : So I a lot of the time I still have, uh, fear and anxiety [00:49:45] when I go up on stage to, to talk to a big audience because I’ve had the experience [00:49:50] of just my brain completely shutting down and forgetting anything that I was going to say and, um, [00:49:55] or my mouth getting dry or like coughing or having like an itchy throat. That still happens to me, but [00:50:00] it’s part of my job. So when I notice those sensations of like [00:50:05] getting butterflies in my stomach or getting tingly before I get up on stage, instead of instead [00:50:10] of being like, oh my God, I’m so scared or I’m anxious, I just tell myself it’s excitement. [00:50:15] I’m excited to do this and so I can trick myself into, um, [00:50:20] yeah. Just seeing it as like, this is I’m excited because I’m doing the stuff that [00:50:25] I love. It might feel like fear, it might feel like anxiety, but no, I’m in charge and I’m telling myself what [00:50:30] this is, and I go up on stage and it kind of, you know.

Rhona Eskandar: Another question. [00:50:35] I’ll pose this to both of you. Actually, I always wonder those people [00:50:40] then, that on the outside, let’s take career because it’s an easy one to look at. Like if [00:50:45] you look at somebody and you go, oh my God, their career is amazing, they’ve made it. Let’s say we [00:50:50] measure that success financially. Whether you’re somebody that assumes that financial success [00:50:55] is the ultimate goal and you’re like, they’ve built this incredible multi-million [00:51:00] billion dollar company. What they’ve done is incredible, right? Do you think [00:51:05] that a lot of that is down to the brain then of [00:51:10] that person? So what I mean by that is, is that they have put themselves in that position [00:51:15] to achieve those goals. Or do you think there’s a mix of different things like circumstances. So for example, [00:51:20] could be an element of luck. Could it be an element or do you feel like they have completely created [00:51:25] their own destiny? I guess it’s about manifestation, which we’ll talk about as well. But what do you what do you think of that? [00:51:30]

Anne-Sophie : I’m curious to see what you.

Anne-Sophie : What do you think?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, firstly, the accident of birth. Right? To be born [00:51:35] into a supportive family with a good brain that can, you know, the accident [00:51:40] of birth isn’t there’s. I think there’s a lot less agency, actually, than [00:51:45] than people think there is. But also.

Rhona Eskandar: In what way? Sorry. What do you mean?

Payman Langroudi: You know, you don’t have [00:51:50] as much free will as you think you have. Um, I think I think, yeah. But also, [00:51:55] um, you know, when those results that you’re talking about, which is like asymmetric results [00:52:00] tend to come from asymmetric behaviour and asymmetric behaviour, [00:52:05] sometimes it’s obsession. Yeah. An obsession comes with a bunch of downsides. [00:52:10] Yeah. So I had a guy sitting in front of me at 40 practices a divorce and suicidal [00:52:15] thoughts. You know, it’s happened. Yeah. So. So although, you know, comparing [00:52:20] yourself has become a thing and yeah, I get I get annoyed when some 21 year old in Australia [00:52:25] comes out with a toothpaste and.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Payman Langroudi: Blows, blows mine. That does a hundred times sales [00:52:30] of my toothpaste. I get it, I do get it.

Rhona Eskandar: But do you think that that’s because of their [00:52:35] great? Do you think it’s because their brain chemistry? I mean, I’m going to put a combination.

Payman Langroudi: Of combination of everything.

Rhona Eskandar: But [00:52:40] because you think it’s combination.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Luck. Agency everything.

Rhona Eskandar: What about you?

Anne-Sophie : I think there’s [00:52:45] too many variables to say that it is them making that [00:52:50] decision. I think it depends on your social circumstances. Like. Yeah, the family [00:52:55] that you were born into. If you’re happy, if you’re healthy, if you hadn’t had to struggle with, like health [00:53:00] conditions or your, you know, your your parents are healthy or you’ve gone to [00:53:05] a good school or you’ve grown up in a, in a good area. There’s so many things that.

Payman Langroudi: Can within. [00:53:10]

Payman Langroudi: A family.

Payman Langroudi: Within a family, you’re totally different to your sister. Even though you were in the same family. The same. This the.

Rhona Eskandar: Same. [00:53:15] Yeah. And then and.

Anne-Sophie : Then like mindset.

Anne-Sophie : And then, but then.

Anne-Sophie : Also luck and circumstance.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. I know so many people. [00:53:20]

Anne-Sophie : Who have like made it who, you know, and, and actually a lot of the people that I know who are very successful [00:53:25] financially. Didn’t go to university, of course. Of course.

Rhona Eskandar: And okay, let’s take Elon Musk as an [00:53:30] example. Okay. Whether you hate him or like him or whatever, the views are on Elon Musk, right? [00:53:35] He’s created something successful or legendary or whatever. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. But do you think [00:53:40] that’s because of Elon Musk’s grit? Do you think it’s because of like the way his brain works, where he was [00:53:45] like, I am going to be a billionaire? Do you think people that are billionaires are like, I am going to be a billionaire? Do you know what [00:53:50] I mean?

Anne-Sophie : So therefore I think, I don’t think you can be a billionaire by accident. Yeah. Because you, you have to.

Payman Langroudi: Have [00:53:55] necessarily chasing the billions. Right. You could be chasing.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. Do you think chasing the billions or just [00:54:00] the millions that.

Anne-Sophie : Elon Musk is like very obvious that he is obsessive over certain [00:54:05] things?

Payman Langroudi: Have you listened to any of his?

Anne-Sophie : No, actually.

Payman Langroudi: So if you listen to one of his four hour interviews, right, [00:54:10] the Joe Rogan did, probably.

Anne-Sophie : Lex Fridman or someone like that as.

Payman Langroudi: Well. Lex Fridman yeah. Then [00:54:15] you realise he’s not happy at all.

Rhona Eskandar: Elon. Yeah, at.

Anne-Sophie : All. He’s very like tortured.

Anne-Sophie : He’s [00:54:20] got like tunnel vision on this certain thing and like his goals I guess Ah, yeah. He won’t feel [00:54:25] happy or satisfied unless he’s done more and more and more and more and more.

Payman Langroudi: He’s got a thousand ideas coming to him all the [00:54:30] time, and he’s constantly working.

Rhona Eskandar: So do you think he’s one of these people? This is such an interesting topic. [00:54:35] I love it. Like we’re jumping from like stage to from topic to topic, but it’s so interesting as we have [00:54:40] Anne Sophie here. Do you think then as well, there is a superpower in neurodiversity, [00:54:45] because neurodiversity used to be something that was so frowned upon, [00:54:50] I think particularly for my generation, and even more so for Payman as well. It was like you medicate [00:54:55] autism, you medicate ADHD. And now, because it’s so widely spoken [00:55:00] about and possibly overdiagnosed, let’s be honest, people are starting to embrace, you [00:55:05] know, having a neurodiverse brain and being like, okay, fine, I don’t fit the mould. I definitely think that ADHD has become [00:55:10] one of my superpowers when it comes to my career. And my friends and family are like, we always [00:55:15] sort of knew it, and now we can see it. And the ability, your ability to do so much is [00:55:20] because of like kind of my multitasking with ADHD. So do you think that neurodiversity has [00:55:25] become a little bit of a superpower?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I think it’s also it’s very significant with the times [00:55:30] that we live in, the career opportunities that are available to people. Whereas like typically in [00:55:35] the past you had very structured careers and ways to like, work. Yeah, you had to fit a mould [00:55:40] and you had to be very good at X, y, z task and following due process. And that works very [00:55:45] well for neurotypical people and not so much for neurodivergence. But [00:55:50] I feel like now with more people have more agency and ownership over their lives [00:55:55] and their careers, and there’s so many careers that you could never even imagine were possible, like YouTubers. [00:56:00] It’s like, that is.

Payman Langroudi: Game.

Anne-Sophie : Gamers. You and you have kids [00:56:05] who are opening up packages on YouTube and they’re making millions. And, you know, the biggest [00:56:10] CEO guy from fortune 500 company who’s worked his way up, um, [00:56:15] could never have imagined amassing wealth like that in that kind of way. And I [00:56:20] think, um, I think it’s really great because it is it is a [00:56:25] way for people who are neurodivergent to also have access to opportunities and success [00:56:30] without following this traditional path.

Rhona Eskandar: What does the research [00:56:35] show about neurodiversity? Because some people would claim that they’re like made up things, which obviously isn’t [00:56:40] correct, particularly now the conversation around autism as well. And I do meet people that [00:56:45] are like, oh, it’s not a real thing. It’s because of X, Y, and Z. What does what does the research [00:56:50] show about these neurodiversities. You know, are they very much real? Are brain [00:56:55] chemistry is different in the way that we imagine? You know, what’s what does it say?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I mean, it’s very much [00:57:00] real. I’m not the person to, like, speak intricately about this, [00:57:05] but it’s it’s very obvious that there are differences in the brain and, and [00:57:10] those there are some nuances that we don’t we haven’t even discovered yet. Uh, I think typically we [00:57:15] would say this person is autistic and this person Is so and so, and I think that [00:57:20] everybody’s brain is different. And you can’t just put people into like one of [00:57:25] two categories, but it is very much real. And it is real in terms of not just the brain chemistry, [00:57:30] but the structure and function of the brain, how it develops. Um, so yeah, I [00:57:35] think anybody who says that it’s not real, it’s made up, is is very misguided.

Payman Langroudi: But what [00:57:40] about.

Payman Langroudi: Um, supplementation for it’s one.

Anne-Sophie : Of my favourite topics.

Payman Langroudi: So our [00:57:45] friend Dan Murray. Yeah. Does that help.

Rhona Eskandar: Him. Heights.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Yes. [00:57:50] Yeah. It’s it’s so his all started because of mental health and then he worked out a natural supplementation. [00:57:55] He talks about psychedelics as well in a couple of podcasts. I think it was ayahuasca that was groundbreaking for [00:58:00] him to get over depression. Um but he worked when they developed heights. He worked with Doctor [00:58:05] Tara Swartz as well. So they developed the supplement. Um, what do you think about.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, I think [00:58:10] it really depends. I think generally people lean on supplements too much. [00:58:15] Is is my like, people want to have a quick fix for something when what’s going [00:58:20] to actually make a difference to your brain? Health and mental health is getting down all the basics, [00:58:25] and I think I don’t have too much respect for people who just go straight to supplements [00:58:30] for sleep or mental health without actually prioritising their sleep schedule, their sleep routine, [00:58:35] looking at what they’re eating, making sure that they’re exercising, that they have social connection and support, [00:58:40] and that there’s no support from the government in terms of like financial support or access to [00:58:45] opportunities, because those are all the things that are going to determine how happy [00:58:50] and healthy you are and you feel. So yeah, I would say it’s [00:58:55] it’s very easy to have a bad night of sleep and then want to go pick up [00:59:00] a melatonin supplement or, um, magnesium or whatever you think is going to do the trick. But [00:59:05] if you’re sleeping badly because you don’t have a good sleep schedule, you’re not a consistent [00:59:10] sleeper. You don’t, you know, uh, expose yourself to, uh, The daylight [00:59:15] first thing in the morning. There are so many things that you can do.

Payman Langroudi: Treating the symptom, not the cause.

Anne-Sophie : Exactly, [00:59:20] exactly. And it’s the same thing with, like, why we got so upset with, um, [00:59:25] treating mental health disorders with medication and big pharma. [00:59:30] And I think it’s just it’s it’s like the other side, the flip side of the coin, it’s like, okay, [00:59:35] well, we don’t want to treat medication. Medication? Uh, we don’t want to treat depression with medication. [00:59:40] Bless you. But and now people are saying, well, what? Bless [00:59:45] you.

Rhona Eskandar: Excuse me. Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Um.

Payman Langroudi: Verona just posted about this, [00:59:50] didn’t she? About ozempic and how we want. We want to sort of listen.

Rhona Eskandar: It was. [00:59:55] Did you see my post yesterday?

Anne-Sophie : No.

Rhona Eskandar: So it was really interesting. I was kind of scrolling [01:00:00] and I came across this doctor who basically was stating that Robbie Williams had openly [01:00:05] come out and said that he was taking Mounjaro and that it was affecting his [01:00:10] eyesight. And basically he said that he was. He feels he’s actually going blind and he thinks [01:00:15] that it’s related to the injections. And then I looked into it. And apparently one of the side effects [01:00:20] of the injection is that, like, you can have blurred vision. However, the key thing is, is that he said he’s [01:00:25] going to still continue taking the weight loss injections because he wants to maintain like the way that he looks or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, [01:00:30] maybe that’s clickbait.

Rhona Eskandar: And, um, the woman goes on to state, [01:00:35] um, that it’s become really sad because we have become this [01:00:40] nation where we are constantly injecting ourselves. And what [01:00:45] she means is really medicating ourselves to numb feelings of low [01:00:50] self-worth, inadequacy, loneliness, loneliness, um, you know, feeling [01:00:55] like we can’t fit in, etc.. So those injections, whether it’s like Botox or fat [01:01:00] loss injections, you know, they’re a constant way to like, numb the feelings of not [01:01:05] feeling enough, essentially. And she said like, no judgement if you take that stuff and like, listen, like [01:01:10] I’m all for injectables. I work in the industry. You know, it was an interesting conversation that she was [01:01:15] having, but I think what she was saying was true. We’ve become a nation of self soothers. We have [01:01:20] become a nation of self soothers and that even includes social media, right? The content that you’re posting to [01:01:25] get the dopamine to self-soothe. Yeah. And that’s the wider conversations that we should be having. [01:01:30] Really?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. Because I guess it’s like you want to fit in so that you’re not exposed to the feelings of discomfort [01:01:35] in society. But I understand that there are huge societal pressures to [01:01:40] perform a certain, you know, view of masculinity or femininity or, [01:01:45] you know, being young or whatever. And, and those pressures are real and they exist and they do affect [01:01:50] people’s mental health, and they do affect your job opportunities and access to, [01:01:55] like, amass wealth and career, because there are studies that show, like a somebody who [01:02:00] is more beautiful might get a job opportunity over somebody else, um, or somebody [01:02:05] a man who appears more masculine is seen as more competent. Like, those are those are all real. Um, [01:02:10] unconscious biases that we have and that exist in the world. So I understand why people are motivated [01:02:15] to, uh, look and act and perform in a certain way. But at the same time, yeah, [01:02:20] I think there’s there’s I mean, if you have [01:02:25] friends who really accept you and love you for who you are, the difference that you feel in those circles [01:02:30] and the acceptance that you feel of like being able to just be yourself and not be [01:02:35] this like perfect representation or who everybody else wants you to be like, those are so [01:02:40] valuable and meaningful. And I think, I think we’re kind of moving [01:02:45] away from that a little bit. Everybody is just judgemental and it’s like, you have to look this way. You have to. [01:02:50]

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. And as you said, it’s the thing that stuck out for me is like these unconscious biases. And I think, like, where [01:02:55] did we, where, where did this all go wrong in society, where you have to be so pressured [01:03:00] to look and be a certain way, you know.

Payman Langroudi: Your generation did it really [01:03:05] was like possibilities came.

Rhona Eskandar: From my.

Payman Langroudi: Mom. Possibilities came in. Your [01:03:10] mom was more like the rich and famous time. Yeah. At that time, anyone who was like top [01:03:15] end of society would go and do their teeth and inject their face, have a facelift or something. [01:03:20] Now it’s become a.

Rhona Eskandar: Everyone can do.

Payman Langroudi: It. Everyone’s got access to it. I’m interested in [01:03:25] you know, as brain chemistry gets into like, the culture does it. On [01:03:30] the one hand, I bet it’s great for business for you, but on the other hand, it must piss you off. Because [01:03:35] I get, like, my 16 year old telling me, yeah, you’re addicted to dopamine, you know, [01:03:40] like, well, I had one. One of my best friends, he brought up, like, um, oxytocin. [01:03:45] I was like, where the hell did he hear about? Like, he’s not. He’s not in the field. Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : You see [01:03:50] a lot of these, like, terms co-opted by, like, pop psychology.

Payman Langroudi: Psychology? Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:03:55]

Anne-Sophie : It’s like, what I see all the time is like, oh, you’re, um, like, you’re [01:04:00] depleting your dopamine or that doesn’t like, that’s not how dopamine works. You can’t deplete dopamine. [01:04:05] It’s just that your tolerance is like it’s it’s at a different marker. So you’re seeking [01:04:10] it out more.

Rhona Eskandar: But that’s why everything is becoming more extreme, as I told you. Because once you see one thing, your [01:04:15] dopamine is used to it. You know what I mean? Then when it comes to content and stuff, that’s what I’m saying.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, yeah, [01:04:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: When you know what’s actually going on. Yeah. Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : But, but but [01:04:25] the thing is that, like, I and I can see this so clearly, it’s one person does a podcast where [01:04:30] they talk about XYZ and they’re like misinterpreting the science a little bit because maybe they’re not a scientist, [01:04:35] even if they are a scientist. Like it might not be their field, and they don’t have that wealth of [01:04:40] knowledge that comes from being involved in the field and knowing all of the primary papers associated with it. And like the [01:04:45] general consensus. And so they, like, pick up this new paper that has this new shiny little finding and [01:04:50] they’re like, oh, you need to supplement with this and this, or you need to do this sleep [01:04:55] protocol or this sauna protocol and this ice bath protocol. And like all these new things that are like really trendy now. And [01:05:00] um, and then all of a sudden somebody else on Instagram, on TikTok will [01:05:05] like, they will amplify it because they’re like, well, I got this from a reputable source because this [01:05:10] person is a scientist or like they do have publications. And so I’m now going to [01:05:15] take what they’ve said and say that that’s true. And then it just gets amplified and amplified and amplified. And now [01:05:20] that is um, like the consensus it’s mainstream and and it’s funny [01:05:25] because.

Rhona Eskandar: People don’t believe it when someone, when someone tries to take it apart. Yeah. They don’t they [01:05:30] don’t believe it.

Anne-Sophie : And this is also like now I’m kind of in the same situation with my social media, where it’s like before when I was talking [01:05:35] about like social justice and I was like fighting against it. I was like, can’t you see this isn’t fair? And again, I’m doing [01:05:40] the same thing with the science. I’m like, no, like the, the, the blue light from your phone [01:05:45] doesn’t affect your circadian rhythm to the point where it affects your sleep. Everybody, like everybody thinks [01:05:50] that this is right, because Matt Walker, who is like one of the biggest sleep scientists, talks about it on his podcast. He’s like, [01:05:55] okay, um, blue light from your phone. Like you shouldn’t be looking at your phone because it’s going to interrupt your circadian rhythm, and it’s [01:06:00] going to mean that you can’t fall asleep. It’s not actually true. And so I’m here telling people, [01:06:05] no, you can’t be on your phone before bedtime. And then people are like, no, you absolutely can’t because it’s so [01:06:10] ingrained.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so.

Anne-Sophie : Mainstream. And I’m finding myself, like fighting this thing again. I’m like, [01:06:15] no, like, I know the truth and like, this isn’t right. And they’re like, you’re just being a hater. You just like to go against the grain. [01:06:20] I’m like, no, I’m trying to like, educate people because I think, you know, there are so many of these gurus [01:06:25] online and everybody gets their information from the next influencer or like lifestyle person [01:06:30] or whatever. And even scientists who, you know, are trying to do the right thing. But like, sometimes [01:06:35] people get it wrong, but it’s hard to discern what’s truth and what’s not. But I [01:06:40] like one thing that really gets to me is that they’re like, this needs to be your morning routine. This is your bedtime routine. [01:06:45] This is the protocol that you need to adhere to in order to become like, happy and more creative and grateful. And [01:06:50] at the end of the day, it really just depends on who you are as a person and knowing yourself.

Rhona Eskandar: I think, I think, listen, [01:06:55] I think that that sort of stuff because I remember as well, like everyone was always talking about like this five, 6 a.m. club, [01:07:00] right? It was even a thing on that. Like dentist gym group, right? And I was like, okay, cool. Like, I’ll [01:07:05] try this and that. 5 a.m., 6 a.m. thing was so unhelpful for me, actually. [01:07:10] And I found that I was more tired and more hungry and less [01:07:15] productive. And I was really trying to force it because actually, I’m someone that does much better when there’s natural [01:07:20] sunlight. I am an eight hour person. If I get up at my time, which is usually [01:07:25] 730, I can be in our gym class for 830. That’s my time zone. That works really well [01:07:30] for me. Any earlier, I’m useless. No matter where I am in the world.

Payman Langroudi: Even if you sleep earlier.

Rhona Eskandar: Even [01:07:35] if I sleep earlier. It’s funny.

Anne-Sophie : There’s new research, actually, that shows that a lot [01:07:40] of the time, people who are living not in accordance with their circadian rhythms and not in accordance [01:07:45] with their own 24 hour clock. So maybe they’re waking up really early for a job, but actually their natural body [01:07:50] clock rhythm is a little bit later on in the day that that a lot of these people might [01:07:55] have symptoms of depression that isn’t being able to be treated by [01:08:00] these SSRIs, because it doesn’t have anything to do with the serotonin. It’s not to do with the brain chemistry, [01:08:05] it’s just that their body is in a permanent state of jet lag that is affecting their mental [01:08:10] health to the point where they are. They now have depression, and this is just because they’re not sleeping in accordance [01:08:15] with their own sleep cycle.

Rhona Eskandar: That’s really, really interesting. And that’s why I’m saying to you, like, I like [01:08:20] to live by my own rules, like it drives my clinic crazy because I have a hard start at 10 [01:08:25] a.m., especially as a.

Anne-Sophie : Neurodivergent like that is going to be very important.

Anne-Sophie : You can’t like it’s just.

Payman Langroudi: Something [01:08:30] about owning your own business.

Rhona Eskandar: You can set, you know, they get really angry because they’re like, oh, you know, no, [01:08:35] no, no. That it’s mainly like my manager who she’s like, you should be here for like the Morning Huddle. You should [01:08:40] do this, you should do that. And she’s somebody that likes to be at the clinic at like 7:45 a.m.. [01:08:45] That’s what works for you. And it’s just not going to work for me. And the thing is, is that also because I fall [01:08:50] asleep around half ten, 11, I get really anxious about waking up [01:08:55] that bit earlier, which makes me not sleep. Do you see what I mean? So I. It just doesn’t work for [01:09:00] me. I want to move a little bit actually forward to since we’re on the topic of, [01:09:05] you know, pop psychology and all these terms have been kind of like thrown around on social [01:09:10] media. Manifestation is one of them. Right? And manifestation is something that actually makes me cringe [01:09:15] a little bit when I say it, because I look back at things and I guess you could brand [01:09:20] it as manifesting, because one thing I did was is that when I got rejected from [01:09:25] several dental practices after I had graduated, I must have not been pretty enough. [01:09:30] Now that you’re saying unconscious bias. But anyway, there is no way that you wouldn’t have been pretty enough. [01:09:35] But I got I basically had written down in a book, and at the time I didn’t [01:09:40] have tools to things that you’re talking about. But I’d written down in the book the way that I imagined my life, and I remember being [01:09:45] like, I wish to live in this area. I wish to, you know, marry this [01:09:50] kind of person. And I want to own a practice in Chelsea X, Y, and Z. Anyways, [01:09:55] I it all kind of came true. Seven years later. So in a way you could [01:10:00] say that was manifestation, right? You know the concept of it, right? But it’s become this hugely [01:10:05] cringe thing now because I literally now I scroll through my Instagram and TikTok and it’s like [01:10:10] how I.

Rhona Eskandar: Manifested.

Rhona Eskandar: £2 million a day. Yeah. You know, like on my [01:10:15] TikTok. And I’m like, okay, so like, what is your what is your perception of manifestation? How does [01:10:20] it work from a brain point of view?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. So I talk about this a lot, and I think it is not true that you can speak [01:10:25] something into existence, which is sometimes what people, when they talk about manifesting, they say, [01:10:30] just wish for it and it will happen. The reason why I think manifestation can sometimes [01:10:35] work is because it is a is a, it’s a way of it’s a goal setting technique. [01:10:40] And if you manifest something and either you’ve written it down, you’ve taken that time to like that brain and [01:10:45] body connection, you’re writing it down, or you’re creating a vision board, or you’re sitting there visualising [01:10:50] your dream life. Um, you spend a lot of time thinking about your goals. So [01:10:55] now, especially if you do this every day, let’s say you’re the method of [01:11:00] manifesting for you is like saying a few affirmations in the mirror. Like I will have [01:11:05] $1 million or pounds. Um, and you say that to yourself every [01:11:10] day. Now it becomes part of your daily programming and you are you have set [01:11:15] the intention, set the goal every single day. So subconsciously, you’re more likely to act in [01:11:20] accordance with something that is going to help you achieve that goal. It is why people who, [01:11:25] um, set New Year’s resolutions. You sit down January 1st, you [01:11:30] make a list of like 30 things that you want to achieve. You never look at the list again halfway throughout the year, you realise you [01:11:35] don’t even know what you’ve written down on this list. You don’t know like you’re not. You’re no closer to achieving any of these goals [01:11:40] because you haven’t. It’s not a goal setting technique. You’ve just said something and then forgotten about it. [01:11:45] But if you practice manifestation as, um, something that [01:11:50] you’re really actually dedicating, dedicating your life to that means that you’re probably going [01:11:55] to do it repetitively. It’s going to be front of mind. And yeah, you’re more likely [01:12:00] to just like be aware that this is a goal that you have and that you want to achieve. And [01:12:05] so subconsciously you’re doing things day in, day out that are going to help you get there.

Payman Langroudi: I really [01:12:10] like effective to that extent. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Do you manifest Payman.

Payman Langroudi: I have in my life by mistake.

Rhona Eskandar: By [01:12:15] mistake. See?

Payman Langroudi: Not on purpose.

Anne-Sophie : But I think. I think there is also really good ways to do it. It’s like [01:12:20] people talk about vision boards and that, again, is also sometimes kind of like la di da and like a little girly thing to do. [01:12:25] But if it helps you to get like a clear, crystallised image of what it is that you’re [01:12:30] working towards, then you’re much more able to see it when it happens for you. Um, like for [01:12:35] example, I hear these things, or you see these TikToks of the girl who’s like, wow, this like, this was [01:12:40] the picture of the apartment that I had on my vision board, and this is the apartment that I finally bought. And it’s like 1 to [01:12:45] 1. But you probably are looking for apartments.

Rhona Eskandar: That look like that.

Anne-Sophie : And yeah, that look like [01:12:50] that because it’s like there or like that’s what or you’ve really defined that. This is your, [01:12:55] uh, aesthetic and that’s what you want. And so you’re, you’re going to be motivated to like, [01:13:00] find something that.

Rhona Eskandar: So how would people block a manifestation in your opinion?

Payman Langroudi: Look.

Anne-Sophie : I [01:13:05] think there are a few ways, like where you get in your own way. Yeah. [01:13:10] Um, I would say, like if you want to manifest, it has to be a regular thing to do. You can’t just manifest [01:13:15] at the beginning of the year or like on a full moon or something and then like, and then forget [01:13:20] about it or leave it up to the gods or the universe. You do actually have to [01:13:25] do something, and the best way that you can help yourself achieve that [01:13:30] is instead of just visualising the goal or the future or the whatever it is that you want to manifest. Also [01:13:35] try to visualise the steps that it’s going to take you to get there so that you have a clear understanding of like, [01:13:40] what do I actually need to do in order to to get £1 million? Like, what can I set [01:13:45] up? Like, how much is that per month that I need to like the goal that I need to set that to and make it like [01:13:50] little baby steps.

Rhona Eskandar: Do you know what I think? I think there’s a huge difference between [01:13:55] what you want and what you believe. And what I mean by that is that people don’t have awareness of it. And I think [01:14:00] that’s particularly true when it comes to relationships, for example. So someone might say, I want a [01:14:05] man that’s kind, loving that will give me the world and treat me really well. But in reality, [01:14:10] they believe that they’re not good enough and they keep attracting the wrong person in their life. And they’re like, but I’m [01:14:15] saying this is what I want. And the universe keeps giving me this. And it’s like, but do you believe you’re [01:14:20] worthy? Do you believe that you deserve this? Do you believe that you’re going to get it? So I think.

Payman Langroudi: Girls, generally [01:14:25] what they say and what they actually do is.

Anne-Sophie : Different.

Payman Langroudi: Very different, I think.

Rhona Eskandar: But this is what I’m saying. [01:14:30] There’s a difference between what you want versus what you believe. And I think that’s when things start [01:14:35] to match up. It’s like when you have those things coming together, that’s when the reality [01:14:40] starts to unfold, you know? And then you’re like, okay, this makes sense. And it’s funny because [01:14:45] I always feel like I’m so behind in life because I’m like, I’m 38. There’s been lots [01:14:50] of like, midlife crises, which we’ll talk about later, but I’m like, I’m 38 and I’m only here [01:14:55] in my life. But it’s like things are slowly unravelling where I’m like, you know what? I actually think [01:15:00] at those points when I wanted something, I didn’t actually believe I deserved it. And as I’m [01:15:05] getting older, like the beauty I guess about getting older is the recognition that some [01:15:10] stages in your life, you’re more ready, and then you start to believe that you’re more deserving when you are ready. [01:15:15] Does that make sense?

Anne-Sophie : I can relate to that a lot because I have similar thoughts and feelings and I’m [01:15:20] like, oh, I wish that I would have taken this step earlier. I wish that I would have started Instagram earlier [01:15:25] or started posting about my work or my life. But then I also think about it. I’m like, I probably wouldn’t have had [01:15:30] the awareness that I do now. The critical thinking that I do now, I probably would have been [01:15:35] one of those people who would have heard something on a podcast, and then I posted about it like it’s the truth, because [01:15:40] that was the level of knowledge that I had. And I yeah, I think things happen for you [01:15:45] at a right time.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes lots of things. One of the biggest causes of unhappiness, [01:15:50] right, is that people set themselves random.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Times [01:15:55] and places and people that they’re going to end up with. It’s it’s very random.

Rhona Eskandar: But listen, [01:16:00] some people but some people listen. And this is the thing, this is when I start getting into the compare and despair. Like I will look [01:16:05] and there are even people that I know that, like, have the societal boxes ticked by the time [01:16:10] they’re 30. Do you see what I mean? Like they’ve got multi-million pound company, they’ve married like the the [01:16:15] perfect person, they’ve had their baby and they’re all 39. Society said I had to do this by 30. I’ve done it. [01:16:20] But again.

Anne-Sophie : But again, you don’t know what the truth is of that relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Worry about that.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. [01:16:25] No, but what I’m saying.

Payman Langroudi: I’m just saying when there’s a mismatch between what you said you would achieve and then what you did [01:16:30] achieve, then you get sad. But if I said I was going to IPO my company [01:16:35] by the time I’m 33 and now I haven’t, everything I’ve achieved would make me sad. [01:16:40]

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. But again, and it’s that practice of like non-judgment and detachment. Yeah. It’s like you don’t. [01:16:45] You’re setting yourself an arbitrary timeline, and now you’re upset because you haven’t met that. But it doesn’t even [01:16:50] mean anything.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s the crazy thing.

Rhona Eskandar: So I want to move a little bit into [01:16:55] actually relationships. We touch a lot about this. Um, and I know this is something that you feel [01:17:00] passionate about. I don’t want to go into the pop psychology of, like, different attachment styles [01:17:05] and so forth, but what I would like to know.

Payman Langroudi: What do you clear up some of those discussions, those [01:17:10] arguments being you used to have about relationships.

Rhona Eskandar: What was it? I don’t even remember now.

Payman Langroudi: Something about [01:17:15] like in love.

Rhona Eskandar: Oh, this is like really boring. We [01:17:20] don’t repeat this. We don’t repeat the same.

Payman Langroudi: I want to hear the brain.

Rhona Eskandar: Say, listen.

Anne-Sophie : So I’m [01:17:25] figuring that it’s so funny because, like, I like, every time that I have a little crush on someone, [01:17:30] I’m like, googling. I’m like, what’s happening in my brain?

Anne-Sophie : Like even you. Yeah, yeah, [01:17:35] yeah, because it’s fascinating.

Anne-Sophie : Because you you just notice, like the way that you operate is so different. [01:17:40]

Rhona Eskandar: Okay.

Rhona Eskandar: So I said to Payman. Right. He was saying like that. The whole notion [01:17:45] of falling in love is like, you can’t sleep, you can’t eat, you can’t think about anything else. [01:17:50] Like you’re falling. Yeah. But he’s like he’s like. But I said to him that with the knowledge that I have [01:17:55] now and all of the work that I’ve done on myself and all of the therapy, that’s not necessarily [01:18:00] a healthy way to be, and that’s usually a sign that it’s not going to turn out for the best. [01:18:05] And that is my say that. And that’s like, and you know.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so sad.

Rhona Eskandar: And and that [01:18:10] has been my experience. That has been my experience. Yeah. And that when you have that sense of like safety [01:18:15] and stability, like it’s kind of understanding that that’s what long [01:18:20] lasting love is and that is what true love is.

Payman Langroudi: Like I used to have someone I used to work for me, [01:18:25] um, she went out with this bad guy or whatever, and, I don’t know, he ended up in [01:18:30] jail.

Anne-Sophie : No joking?

Payman Langroudi: No, he ended up drug addict. And then he killed [01:18:35] himself. And then she. She wanted only like dorks. [01:18:40] Yeah. She just. She did. She wanted the opposite.

Anne-Sophie : Okay. Yeah. You have a tendency to overcorrect, right? In [01:18:45] relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Maybe that’s what you’re saying now. Yeah. It’s overcorrection.

Rhona Eskandar: For you. The thing is, is that [01:18:50] again, it goes back to the dopamine thing. Highs and lows will definitely. I believe [01:18:55] you can correct me if I’m wrong. Initiate different chemical responses in your in your [01:19:00] brain chemistry which you can mistaken for being in love. Yeah. And definitely if you’re an ADHD [01:19:05] person, you seek pleasure. You seek dopamine. So I love those highs [01:19:10] and lows subconsciously doesn’t mean it’s good for me. And I gave you the example before. If I came [01:19:15] to Anne Sophie and you said, guys, I tried heroin last night. It was amazing. It was amazing. [01:19:20] But then my crash was so low, you wouldn’t be like, babes, just take heroin again. Of [01:19:25] course not. It doesn’t mean it’s good for you just because you’re having those chemical emotional reactions.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, [01:19:30] but. But I think there’s again, there’s so much nuance to it. So it’s basically like the it’s it’s intermittent reward [01:19:35] which keeps your brain fixated and like And it’s the same thing that happens like when [01:19:40] you’re scrolling with the dopamine, it’s intermittent reward. You don’t know if the next video is going to be a good video or a bad video. So you’re kind of like waiting. [01:19:45] And then you get that like up and down and up and down. And there are studies where it shows that like when you’re in love or [01:19:50] falling in love, the brain, it’s the same reward pathways as if you’re on [01:19:55] withdrawing from drugs. So you want that hit again. And um, [01:20:00] and I do agree that in general, people say that love should [01:20:05] be consistent and safe and secure and maybe it’s boring and maybe, like this crazy [01:20:10] love infatuation isn’t, um, the right way to go or isn’t [01:20:15] healthy. But I think it then you’re also taking away the individual responsibility [01:20:20] of being able to self-regulate. I think here again, you have the problem that some people just, like let themselves [01:20:25] go with emotions and will fantasise and romanticise [01:20:30] absolutely anything and project. Yeah. And I think mindfulness is a really good skill to have here [01:20:35] because you can stay focussed and fixated on the present moment versus in that projection of like, [01:20:40] what is this relationship going to be? When am I going to hear from them? And you’re not living in the future or in the past? [01:20:45]

Rhona Eskandar: But I think one thing that you are forgetting there is it includes another person, and the way that the other person behaves [01:20:50] and responds will also trigger that response, right? So if you are dating somebody and you have [01:20:55] to.

Payman Langroudi: Remember how it.

Payman Langroudi: Started.

Payman Langroudi: So-and-so did something. Yeah. And then I said, yeah, I said [01:21:00] she was in love. So, so.

Rhona Eskandar: But.

Payman Langroudi: Then also you said I would never do that. And then I jokingly [01:21:05] said, obviously you’ve never been in love. It was a joke that was had.

Rhona Eskandar: But the thing is, this person, a friend of [01:21:10] mine, had completely lost herself and uprooted her life because for this person [01:21:15] that she didn’t know very well because she was so in love. However, fast forward, [01:21:20] fast forward.

Payman Langroudi: Falling in love doesn’t.

Rhona Eskandar: Fast forward a couple of years. Confirmed [01:21:25] that that feeling is not as it was at the beginning. So that elevation and she’s [01:21:30] now looking back and being like, oh, did I make the right choice? Now I’ve changed my [01:21:35] entire life for this person. Was it the right decision? Which is what I was trying to say to you, that actually, [01:21:40] that feeling doesn’t last forever. And. But she still has a mass. She’s still [01:21:45] in love with her partner, has that companionship, but the irrational behaviour isn’t as it was. [01:21:50] So you can’t have consistent irrationality in a relationship. You just can’t. But also, [01:21:55] you have to be careful with who you pick. Because what I was saying is about the other person is that if the other person [01:22:00] is inconsistent, it’s not a reflection of you self-regulating, because you’re also [01:22:05] not allowing the other person to take ownership of their behaviour. Because if they’re an inconsistent person, yes, [01:22:10] you might get the dopamine hit of them being hot and cold, but it doesn’t mean it’s the right, you know, dynamic [01:22:15] to be in either, because that person may be unreliable.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Do you know what I mean?

Anne-Sophie : No, I [01:22:20] completely agree. And I think, yeah, it’s hard because you’re navigating somebody else, somebody else’s psyche [01:22:25] and somebody else’s like personal circumstances. You never know what’s happening. I saw this meme the other day. [01:22:30] It was, um, it’s like when I don’t reply to you for a few hours, it’s because I’m very busy and [01:22:35] I have a lot of things to do in a social life. But when you don’t reply to me, it’s because you absolutely hate me. And like [01:22:40] you’ve forgotten about me. And I think it’s just it’s just the way that you like, think about. Um, [01:22:45] so I know one of the questions, one of the things that you wanted to talk about also is like, how do you know if a relationship [01:22:50] is good? And, um, this is more on the psychology side, but there are two a [01:22:55] couple who’s a psychologist, couple who looks a lot of relationships to Gottman’s. You’ve probably heard of them.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, of [01:23:00] course I listened to. Yeah, but they talk a lot about the safety security aspect of things.

Anne-Sophie : They also talk about, [01:23:05] um, the core things to look out for, and they can tell within like a few minutes whether a couple is going to [01:23:10] last or not. And there are two things that I remember from when we were studying this, like way back when. And the [01:23:15] first is, um, whether that person, uh, if a negative thing happens, like you’re [01:23:20] late to your dinner reservation, um, whether when they’re sitting there, [01:23:25] whether they say that that negative thing is a, an attribute of you and your personality [01:23:30] or whether they externalise it and say it’s probably a situational [01:23:35] thing. So if you’re late to our dinner date, I’m sitting here and either I’m thinking, [01:23:40] you’re so late, you don’t care about me. You never value my time. You’re so selfish. Or, uh, [01:23:45] a couple that’s more likely to succeed is the person’s going to sit there and think [01:23:50] like, oh, they’re late. I hope that they’re okay. Like, there was probably traffic. Um, and it’s it’s about [01:23:55] saying that this.

Payman Langroudi: Positive and always have.

Anne-Sophie : Never and always more.

Payman Langroudi: Relationships. [01:24:00]

Payman Langroudi: Than.

Payman Langroudi: That should be banned words and relationships.

Anne-Sophie : But but [01:24:05] exactly. That’s the thing. Like if somebody is inconsistent.

Anne-Sophie : Like of course it’s it’s also on you to [01:24:10] determine are they inconsistent because like, they’re a mean evil person or are there actually circumstances [01:24:15] in life like sometimes you can’t always control everything, but then also it is on you to figure out, uh, [01:24:20] if.

Rhona Eskandar: It works for you.

Anne-Sophie : If.

Anne-Sophie : It works for you, and if you trust this person and if they’re [01:24:25] a good person at heart. And if you believe that. Yeah. Um, the other thing that [01:24:30] they say determines a good relationship is, um, were [01:24:35] they on a podcast recently, by the way?

Rhona Eskandar: I’ve listened to them. I can’t remember how I found them. I feel [01:24:40] like I found them, like randomly on Spotify, do you know what I mean? And I listened to all their older stuff. I haven’t listened to their newer stuff, [01:24:45] to be honest. Um, I will delve into it.

Anne-Sophie : The other thing that they say that determines a [01:24:50] good relationship is whether the person that you’re with responds to your bids for attention, and so a bid [01:24:55] for attention is, anytime you, like, notice something in the environment. And I think this has been going viral recently on social [01:25:00] media. It’s called bird theory where you see these videos of like, have.

Rhona Eskandar: You seen [01:25:05] this?

Anne-Sophie : Girls are filming themselves and they’re like, hey babe, like I saw a bird today. And if [01:25:10] the partner is like engages with that and it’s like, oh, what kind of bird? And like carries [01:25:15] the conversation further or is interested in like something very mundane.

Rhona Eskandar: My husband.

Anne-Sophie : That you have to say, then [01:25:20] they are responding to your bid for attention because you’re saying something and it can be as arbitrary as, [01:25:25] hey, I saw a bird. Um, that is a bid for attention. That is you’re [01:25:30] you’re asking somebody to respond to you and be close and connect and, um, yeah, [01:25:35] it’s whether they indulge in that or whether they don’t. And you have a lot of videos of girls [01:25:40] who are like, um, hey, babe, I saw a bird today, and the guy’s just, like, either ignoring them or, [01:25:45] like, cool or, like, doesn’t really say much. Yeah, yeah. And you’re not responding to that [01:25:50] bid, because what she was wanting to do is just to, like, open up the floor for a moment of connection [01:25:55] and see that there’s interest from that person.

Rhona Eskandar: Right? I mean, listen, I still [01:26:00] think, like, I still think the values thing is such a key part to all of this, you know? Has anyone been [01:26:05] watching MAFs recently?

Anne-Sophie : No. Wait. Is Australian one on again?

Rhona Eskandar: No, it’s the English one.

Anne-Sophie : The [01:26:10] Australian one.

Rhona Eskandar: So you know about MAFs. There’s a dentist on there.

Anne-Sophie : Married at first sight.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:26:15] yeah, she’s coming on my pod.

Rhona Eskandar: I should be there to do that interview. [01:26:20] Yeah. Okay. So basically, um, when I was watching [01:26:25] it, it was really interesting because there was this couple, and it’s funny that the experts got it wrong because the whole [01:26:30] premise is the experts match you with your husband or wife based on the conversations they’ve had. Obviously, [01:26:35] we’ve got to take it to pinch of salt and be like, have they done like bits for television? So they [01:26:40] have this girl, this woman called Julia Ruth, who’s become like a massive clickbait person. [01:26:45] And they matched her up with this guy.

Payman Langroudi: Black girl.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah. And basically.

Rhona Eskandar: Did [01:26:50] you see.

Rhona Eskandar: I need to watch this. And basically, I feel quite sorry for him because [01:26:55] she’s your kind of, like, typical, like, feisty, sexy woman. And he’s somebody that’s [01:27:00] really looking for, like, love and connection. And she’s really mean to him the whole way through. And one [01:27:05] day the experts give them this values exercise. They say, like, here are a bunch of values. [01:27:10] We want you each to list them from 1 to 10. So it had things like money, children, [01:27:15] sex, looks, etc., right. And when they compared their values [01:27:20] list it was polar opposites. The her first two values that were most important to her looks [01:27:25] and attraction. That came last down for him and his was like children and I think success or [01:27:30] something like that. And it was like you could see that. Like she was really bummed out because she was like, well, obviously [01:27:35] our values are so different. And I was like, exactly like, how is it ever going to [01:27:40] work when two people’s values are so different in life for what they want? You know? And also, it was [01:27:45] quite surprising that the experts hadn’t picked up on that, because surely that would have been the first thing. I mean, if you go with. [01:27:50]

Anne-Sophie : Experts, like now, maths has become such a thing. Like they definitely do it just for cause [01:27:55] like and especially the Australian ones, you have so many guys who end up being like these manipulators and [01:28:00] you think like it’s. So every single time I start this show, it’s you have this beautiful [01:28:05] woman who’s like, very capable, has a good job, like provides a life for [01:28:10] herself. She’s a single mom. She takes care of her like she social life. Everything like tick tick tick [01:28:15] tick. And then they place her with a guy who still lives with his mom, who’s, like, [01:28:20] just out of, like, doesn’t have a job at the moment, just like kind of roaming around and it’s [01:28:25] like, why would you do this?

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, no, it is interesting. But that’s why I think like values [01:28:30] is a really big one. And now that I’ve chosen to start a family, which I’ve said to you like that’s like [01:28:35] shared values, thing is like even more important because you’ve got a third person in the mix now to think about. [01:28:40] So if you have somebody where like they want to party all the time and their whole thing is like socialising, whereas somebody [01:28:45] that’s like, I want to build a home.

Payman Langroudi: What are you struggling with?

Anne-Sophie : In [01:28:50] terms of relationships? Do you know what I’ve.

Anne-Sophie : Actually.

Anne-Sophie : But like I’ve, I my last [01:28:55] relationship was very aligned in terms of values. Um, and that gave me so much safety [01:29:00] and security and like really restored my faith in like a true partnership and men. But [01:29:05] like also now I see that I’m drawn to people who, like, I might not have been drawn [01:29:10] to before, or I would think like politically, they’re not quite where I’m at or they’re not as like [01:29:15] they don’t see things the way that I do. But, um, but there are other things that [01:29:20] maybe are more important to me at this stage of my life in terms of a partnership, [01:29:25] and as long as I trust that they are capable and that they will keep the family safe and together [01:29:30] and power through. Like that’s actually, um, more important to me than [01:29:35] somebody who’s like 1 to 1 aligned on on everything. [01:29:40]

Rhona Eskandar: So do you think that. Well, my question was going to be for you. What’s the belief you once held strongly [01:29:45] but have since outgrown? Do you think that kind of answers it?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. [01:29:50]

Payman Langroudi: As you get older, that definitely happens. You know, you surprise yourself with the kind [01:29:55] of people.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Interested in, like, ideologies you’re interested in?

Anne-Sophie : Yeah, exactly. And [01:30:00] I would say also in my last relationship, like, because there was so much alignment and everything that I started [01:30:05] to learn about or found interesting and I would tell him about, he would be interested in as well and like, which is great [01:30:10] because like, we’re always moving sort of in the same direction together and agreeing on [01:30:15] everything. There’s very little friction, but at the same time, like some friction is required in order [01:30:20] for growth.

Rhona Eskandar: But that’s what I was saying about the discomfort.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah yeah. Yeah. So so like sometimes like now the people that I [01:30:25] talk to and maybe yeah they have different views on, on things. But it’s, it’s a challenge for me. [01:30:30] And actually it challenges my thinking and I’m not in my echo chamber. And maybe I still [01:30:35] end up disagreeing with them. But I’ve learned something. Like I’ve come out a new person. [01:30:40] Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: Person’s very interested in.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Your your angle on things. [01:30:45] Yeah. Whereas if you agree on everything.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah. Everything’s like yeah, yeah I agree. And then there’s it’s like okay cool. [01:30:50] Next topic.

Rhona Eskandar: What’s your most painful life lesson?

Anne-Sophie : My [01:30:55] most painful life lesson. Oh that’s interesting. [01:31:00] Can you guys also share something? Let me think for a moment.

Rhona Eskandar: Well, I [01:31:05] think my most painful life lessons, probably what I’ve just been through.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Rhona Eskandar: Right. [01:31:10] As in, it was horrendous what I went through, but [01:31:15] I don’t really see. It’s difficult, [01:31:20] right? Because I’m such a hindsight kind of person. But I also do have this strong belief that [01:31:25] things I always feel like things will always work out. And it sounds crazy. At the back of my mind, I always [01:31:30] feel like things are going to work out.

Payman Langroudi: Believe in God or something?

Rhona Eskandar: No. I just always feel like things are going to work out. [01:31:35] Like life will only throw you what you can handle.

Payman Langroudi: I [01:31:40] mean, maybe it’s a coping thing, but why?

Rhona Eskandar: Maybe it is a coping thing. And you [01:31:45] know what? Sometimes because sometimes I also like blackout stuff, you know? And that’s why as well, like, with everything [01:31:50] I went through in the last few months, um, like, I decided I wanted to talk about it because I [01:31:55] wanted to help people that are going through similar things, and I wanted to kind of be really authentic and honest. But [01:32:00] at the same time, I made a very conscious decision that I don’t want it to define me, and I want to just move past [01:32:05] it once I’ve spoken about it. Does that make sense? Like, I don’t want it to define me and I don’t want to become my [01:32:10] trauma. Does that make sense? You know, and then in a way, like I’ve done this before, then I just kind of like, block it [01:32:15] out. Do you see what I mean? Because it’s like, what’s the point in just dwelling on it and overanalyzing it? [01:32:20] And what could have been happened and could have been done better?

Payman Langroudi: Um, so. Yeah. And it’s over. Right.

Rhona Eskandar: Exactly. [01:32:25] There are some people that can still, like, live in it for years and years. You know what I mean? I don’t want to, you know, [01:32:30] um, what’s the most, your most painful life experience?

Payman Langroudi: Full [01:32:35] life experience. Come on. I’ve been through. I’ve been through nightmares at work, [01:32:40] you know.

Rhona Eskandar: Nightmares with enlighten.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. The first few years, total [01:32:45] nightmares. But I was being sued by my previous boss. Losing hundreds [01:32:50] of thousands here, driving up and down the country, losing money. Horrible, [01:32:55] horrible times.

Rhona Eskandar: That was the time.

Payman Langroudi: 1 or 2 days of like, oh, geez, what’s it all for? You know? Um, [01:33:00] but no. Nothing.

Rhona Eskandar: What about you, then?

Anne-Sophie : I would say [01:33:05] the most painful life lesson. And I think something that I definitely still have certain defence mechanisms [01:33:10] around is that the people who. You expect [01:33:15] to always be there for you, or that should care for you and nurture you might [01:33:20] not always be.

Rhona Eskandar: Let you down.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: As in. [01:33:25]

Payman Langroudi: As in like.

Payman Langroudi: Relationships.

Payman Langroudi: Or friends or.

Anne-Sophie : I would say like.

Anne-Sophie : Like nuclear [01:33:30] family. I think you grow up in this world thinking nobody is going to love me more than my parents, [01:33:35] and nobody’s going to want the best for me as much as my parents do. And nobody’s [01:33:40] going to work harder than my parents and my family to support me. [01:33:45] And yeah, in a lot of situations, that’s not that’s not necessarily the case. [01:33:50] But on the flip side of that, there’s so much power and there are so many other people in [01:33:55] the world, and you can really find and build strong relationships with people [01:34:00] who don’t owe you anything on that, like family or like bloodline level, but [01:34:05] who will be there for you and show up for you even without having [01:34:10] to or not really owing you anything and and I think those friendships and those relationships [01:34:15] are so rewarding.

Rhona Eskandar: So and then the other [01:34:20] flip of the coin, what’s your most beautiful life experience?

Anne-Sophie : I guess the most beautiful [01:34:25] life lesson that I have had, like the biggest thing [01:34:30] that’s effectuated the biggest shift in my life is that you’re always only one decision away from a different life. And [01:34:35] I remember thinking this like, whenever I’ve ended really meaningful and significant relationships, [01:34:40] um, with people that I’ve loved, but I’ve known like it’s not right for me on whatever level, [01:34:45] or I’m not happy with where I am and how this is going. Um, you [01:34:50] just you often you just need to make one decision and it can completely change the trajectory [01:34:55] of your life in, in a positive way. And I think to some people that feels risky, but [01:35:00] I think it’s even more risky to stay the same. And yeah, [01:35:05] live, live a life where you’re not happy and not fulfilled because any change that you make [01:35:10] that’s going to take you, propel you into a different sphere or universe? Yes. [01:35:15] You might not know exactly what that looks like, but you just trust that it’s going to be better than whatever you have now. [01:35:20] And so, like sometimes I tell myself, if it’s not this, it’s going to be something better. So I’m going [01:35:25] to change something about this. But I know that whatever I change, it’s going to be better than this.

Rhona Eskandar: So [01:35:30] I love that. And I feel that was actually answers my last question, which was what [01:35:35] message would you like anyone that’s listening to this podcast to carry forward with them? And I guess it’s just [01:35:40] that, you know, whatever decision or choice you make could propel you in a different direction, [01:35:45] but it’s better to take that risk and chance.

Anne-Sophie : Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Because and because the [01:35:50] unknown is so uncomfortable for so many people. But if [01:35:55] what’s known to you now is not happy or satisfying to you, then the unknown [01:36:00] can only be better than that if you’re choosing a different path or life for yourself. [01:36:05]

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much And so for me, honestly, [01:36:10] as always, you sparkle so much glitter into every conversation. For those people [01:36:15] that do want to look you up. Um, so we’ve given her Instagram name a lot of times.

Anne-Sophie : Would she [01:36:20] buy Gucci?

Anne-Sophie : Easy to remember. And do you have a website as well?

Anne-Sophie : Um, yeah. So I’m on Substack. [01:36:25] I write actually, one of the the articles that I just published was something that we were just talking about. Now, [01:36:30] um, well, there’s different things I talk about, like how to boost your memory, um, or what’s [01:36:35] happening in the brain when you have a crush.

Rhona Eskandar: Yeah.

Anne-Sophie : Something I researched recently and then decided [01:36:40] to write about it.

Rhona Eskandar: Love it.

Rhona Eskandar: I’m gonna subscribe.

Anne-Sophie : Um, and my my [01:36:45] website is, uh, we are brainwave co, and this is just where I do a lot of my corporate workshops. [01:36:50] So if there’s anybody who has, like a company or like a, they want a talk or a workshop, [01:36:55] um, to help people understand their brains better or be more productive, be more creative [01:37:00] or work better as a team or improve their mental resilience. Those are things that I do as well.

Rhona Eskandar: Perfect. Thank you so [01:37:05] much, Anne. Sophie. Thank you.