[VOICE]: This [00:00:05] is mind movers [00:00:10] moving the conversation forward on mental health [00:00:15] and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts Rhona [00:00:20] Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Rhona Eskander: Hi [00:00:25] everyone, welcome to another episode of Mind Movers. I haven’t been on for a very long time because I think a [00:00:30] lot of you will know that I went and had a baby. I was in ICU for two months, but I have [00:00:35] been back for a very special podcast just before Christmas, and I [00:00:40] was so excited when they told me that he had the amazingly wonderful Nellie Patel. For those [00:00:45] of you that don’t know, Nellie Patel is an incredible cosmetic dentist based in the famous Kiss Dental [00:00:50] with Kailash Solanki, and she is also a superstar [00:00:55] from the TV show MAFs. Now, I have to admit, I only started watching MAFs. The very first [00:01:00] season that I watched was during my maternity leave. So when I saw there was a cosmetic dentist, I [00:01:05] got really excited. And obviously, I think that we can all agree that she was incredible [00:01:10] on the show. For those of you that didn’t watch the show, the premise of the show is, is that a bunch of experts get together [00:01:15] when you apply, they match you up with someone that they believe to be your soulmate, and the first time [00:01:20] that you meet them is on your wedding day. You then go on to get married. The marriage then [00:01:25] progresses. You have check ins with the experts. You see what the dynamics are with your family, how it [00:01:30] is living with each other. And I love all that sort of experimental stuff. So it’s going to [00:01:35] be a really interesting conversation to learn from somebody who has got the media spotlight in dentistry, [00:01:40] but also to understand how to navigate relationship dynamics in the modern day world. [00:01:45] So welcome, Nelly.

Neelima Patel: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Really excited. [00:01:50] Um, I’m going to jump straight in there because I know pay is like, this is going to turn into like two women. So [00:01:55] obviously, as I said, you know, you have been an incredibly credible cosmetic dentist [00:02:00] at Kiss Dental. I want to actually start with that. How did [00:02:05] your journey start? So you told me you’re from Loughborough, but what university did you go to?

Neelima Patel: I [00:02:10] went to University of Sheffield.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, amazing. And did you know you wanted to be a dentist from a young age? Did [00:02:15] you just kind of fall into it? How did it happen?

Neelima Patel: Honestly, no. I think my dream job was to be like an astronaut [00:02:20] for a bit. I had no idea. And then I think when I, you know, when it was time to [00:02:25] sort of start choosing your A-levels and stuff, I always knew I was a science girl. And I’m [00:02:30] like, good with people. Yeah. Um, so it was either, you know, I was tossing up between dentistry and medicine for a very long time, [00:02:35] and then, um, I chose dentistry. It was honestly really 50 over 50. Just chose [00:02:40] it because I think I knew I wanted to do surgery or something like. And, yeah, I [00:02:45] knew I wanted to do surgery. I think with medicine, it’s really difficult. Like I wanted to if I [00:02:50] was going to do medicine, I was going to do the surgery side of it. That includes nights I wanted to I wanted to have a life where [00:02:55] I could have a family and stuff, and I think dentistry allowed me to go down that path if I wanted to.

Rhona Eskander: So you qualified in [00:03:00] 2017, which is a lot later than me. I am an old bird now, and I would love [00:03:05] to know how you got into such a successful cosmetic practice, because I think that’s what a lot of young dentists would want to [00:03:10] know as well. You only graduated seven years ago, eight years ago [00:03:15] now in 2026. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But you know, [00:03:20] you how was your kind of cosmetic dentistry journey. How did you get into that field?

Neelima Patel: To be honest, I [00:03:25] would say I mean it’s something that’s always interested me for a while. And then I met Kailash, [00:03:30] um, through a friend, um, on a night out. And then we I sort of followed [00:03:35] him on Instagram, and I saw that he was doing sort of the mentorship program that he does. And so I literally [00:03:40] just messaged him on Instagram and I said I’d really be interested in it. And then, yeah, it kind of it kind of just [00:03:45] spiralled from there.

Payman Langroudi: How long have you been there now?

Neelima Patel: So I started in 2020. So yeah about [00:03:50] five and a half years.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Amazing I love that. So what does the mentorship program involve? Quite interested. [00:03:55]

Neelima Patel: So it’s two years. And then on the first year you do three clinical days, two days shadowing. [00:04:00] And it’s just shadowing Kailash um, all day. And then the second year you drop to one [00:04:05] shadow day and have four clinical days. And it’s just literally watching him learning how to do [00:04:10] the restorative stuff, um, or the like all the yeah, all the cosmetic stuff that you kind of [00:04:15] you don’t get taught at uni.

Rhona Eskander: I always say to people that I think mentorship is really underrated. Like, I’m sure you’ve [00:04:20] got a lot of young dentists and like, it’s one of the best things that you can do. Like one of my mentors at the moment [00:04:25] is Christian Coachman, and I remember watching him at Bacd in 2000 and I [00:04:30] want to say 12 or something. Was that the year I think I can’t remember, but anyways, and now I’ve invested [00:04:35] in kind of doing like a mentorship program with him. And I always say it’s like it’s such a good thing to do because you just learn [00:04:40] so much from people that have done it, and it’s definitely a great investment. Okay, amazing. [00:04:45] So have you enjoyed dentistry?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. You know what? I think since starting [00:04:50] I think Since starting at Kiss, I’ve actually really enjoyed it. I think it’s the clinic. I really enjoy being there. [00:04:55] I think the people are great, but also I’m really enjoying the sort of treatments I do. Sounds cheesy, but you know, [00:05:00] making someone smile and actually improving their confidence. It’s nice.

Rhona Eskander: Amazing.

Neelima Patel: It’s quite it’s like fulfilling. [00:05:05]

Payman Langroudi: You landed on your feet, right? Because it. Have you ever been to kiss?

Rhona Eskander: No, I’ve never been to [00:05:10] kiss.

Payman Langroudi: It’s like. It’s like a very busy, very private [00:05:15] practice, you know, like, normally. Yeah. But normally, normally practices are either busy or they’re [00:05:20] private. Yeah. You don’t see both at the same time. Or you go to kiss his waiting room. There’s loads of people [00:05:25] waiting. There’s loads of people coming and going. And then you realise, oh, it’s one of the sort of higher end practices [00:05:30] as well.

Rhona Eskander: Would you say that also in northern practices like, well, where northern dentistry [00:05:35] is, there’s less competition than London?

Neelima Patel: No, no.

Rhona Eskander: Really. So a lot of [00:05:40] a lot of dental practices because I don’t really kind of I studied in Leeds, Manchester.

Neelima Patel: There’s so much competition [00:05:45] in Manchester.

Rhona Eskander: Oh really. That’s interesting. That is interesting because I didn’t know. [00:05:50] You know, because obviously London, you think it’s so big and you’ve got all the different areas, etc..

Payman Langroudi: Maybe it’s not as [00:05:55] bad as London, but I mean, probably the second most competitive.

Neelima Patel: Leeds and Liverpool and all those places around as well. So [00:06:00] you’re competing with all those areas because.

Rhona Eskander: And are they as popular, do you think Manchester’s The Hub.

Neelima Patel: Liverpool’s [00:06:05] pretty busy. There’s some really good clinics in Liverpool, Leeds as well. But like yeah [00:06:10] I think those two areas are our main competitors really.

Rhona Eskander: Would you say it’s a certain type of aesthetic that [00:06:15] people want because, see, like in London with Chelsea, people are so [00:06:20] picky as in like they really don’t want people to know they’ve had their teeth done. So this has to be like undetectable cosmetic [00:06:25] dentistry, you know, it has to be like, that’s it’s a lot harder. You know, you’re never going to have anyone go for [00:06:30] bl1 like it’s.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of SB, SB one composite up north. [00:06:35]

Neelima Patel: Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So I’m trying to ask, is it do people want to look like they’ve had their teeth done if that makes sense? Yeah. [00:06:40] I mean.

Neelima Patel: Don’t get me wrong. Obviously I’ll have an array of patients. I have a lot of people that will say I just want something subtle. [00:06:45] Often it’s I want people to know I’ve had my teeth done, but I don’t want them to look overdone. And I’m just like, [00:06:50] watch it. I’m like, yeah, right. Okay. I’ll figure it out. I’ll figure it out when I’m there. Um, but a lot of times [00:06:55] it’s like, yeah, no, I want people to know I’ve had my teeth and I just don’t want them to have been done in Turkey. And I’m like, well, at least you’ve gone for the [00:07:00] sensible option and get them done safely here. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s just I guess everyone has different. [00:07:05]

Payman Langroudi: You know? Matty. Matty talks about this Matty Parsons. He’s he’s in Liverpool. And [00:07:10] he says as long as the patient says I want, he’s okay. [00:07:15] If the patient says, I want everyone to know I’ve had my teeth out. I want big white teeth, I want this. He [00:07:20] says the problem is when the patient says, you decide.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Then he doesn’t know. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And then? [00:07:25] And then he does something. And then the patient’s, you know, idea of that was totally different. To what? Yeah. You [00:07:30] know that. You must get that a lot. Right.

Rhona Eskander: No. Yeah. Sometimes. And I think also, unfortunately, [00:07:35] because of my social media, people do put me on the, like, holy grail sometimes and they think [00:07:40] that I know better. And I think one of the most challenging things about being your own brand and [00:07:45] dentistry. And one thing that I regret and I’m having to do is basing the brand on you. And I think one thing that [00:07:50] Kailash has done really well is pivoted the brand away from him and reverted it back to kiss, [00:07:55] which now I’m trying to do with Chelsea Dental, because, see, for example, I would say I have some clinicians [00:08:00] in my clinic that are better and more talented than me, but the patient, even if they get diverted [00:08:05] to them and they’re not happy, they’re like, but I wanted to see Rona anyways. This wouldn’t have happened with Rona. And it’s like, [00:08:10] it’s the patient. It’s not the dentist, you know, because I know those dentists are much more capable than me. So [00:08:15] it’s quite an interesting psychology. You know, there was a patient that was disgruntled with one of my dentists, and then [00:08:20] she was like, all of Rona’s patients are happy on Instagram. You’re not going to show your [00:08:25] bad bits, you know? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we used to talk about it all [00:08:30] the time with Kailash and Prav. The question of can you bottle Kailash [00:08:35] before he started that program? Yeah. And, um, now he’s really shown that you can because [00:08:40] you guys, you know, there’s so many of you who’ve come through that program. And doing well, right? [00:08:45] You know, like working high level. High volume, high price. [00:08:50] Um, so it’s an impressive thing. You should look at that. You should look at that.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, I think it’s [00:08:55] interesting, but also, like, I don’t have the time to dedicate. You know, I recognised as well that mentorship [00:09:00] requires so much time. So whilst now juggling like being a mum and running a. I [00:09:05] already do so much so like my, my kind of pivot as well is like doing a lot of PR for [00:09:10] my other dentists and getting them to treat journalists and celebrities so [00:09:15] that people then say I want to see them, which is like models that some other practices have used as well. So don’t [00:09:20] just push one person. So I went to my PR and I was like, okay doctor, [00:09:25] Rona PR def and Chelsea Dental PR different, you know what I mean? So like before it used to be [00:09:30] like Rona at Chelsea and now it’s like I’m now sent the biographies of all my dentists and going [00:09:35] for that, because we have had younger dentists in the practice and they have been really good. [00:09:40] But I think with the mentorship that you’re talking about, like, I can’t be watching them every minute of the day [00:09:45] because also I’m treating patients sometimes and their confidence is different. And Chelsea [00:09:50] is really tricky. Like, the patients are kind of on another level of pickiness. And even [00:09:55] my very experienced dentists now, Doctor Justin and Doctor Pete, they both [00:10:00] said like Chelsea, patients are very well versed in dentistry. They don’t come in being [00:10:05] like, hey, like, this is what I want. They like they know about line angles, they know about translucency. They’re very [00:10:10] well versed, like their sort of patients that have done their research. They buy very quickly, but [00:10:15] they know what they want, you know. So anyway, we understand the kind of like kiss journey. [00:10:20] So fast forward to last year. Was it filmed last year?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, filmed last year. [00:10:25]

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Amazing. How did you get on to MAFs? How did it start?

Neelima Patel: So started. I got DM [00:10:30] on my Instagram and then it just kind of rolled from there, really. So it was. It wasn’t [00:10:35] even for married at First sight. It was for another show. Love is blind. Yeah, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And then I [00:10:40] feel like that’s also somewhat better in some ways, but go on.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Well I remember and then but that was sort of very towards [00:10:45] the end of the casting process. Um, so then they were like, look, it’s not going to happen this time. Can [00:10:50] we keep your stuff on file? And I said, yeah, but I don’t really can imagine myself on [00:10:55] any other shows. I can’t really I can’t really see it. Um, and I didn’t realise at the time that it’s the same production [00:11:00] company for Maths and Love Is Blind. So then I was like the only one I could go on, maybe would be something like maths. [00:11:05] And he was like, oh great, um, I’ll keep your number on. And then a month later I got a phone call and it just sort of went from [00:11:10] there, really.

Rhona Eskander: And what was going through your mind at that point? Like, were you like excited? [00:11:15] Were you thinking, this is something I’ve always wanted to do? Were you worried about what? Your family, your friends, what anyone thinks?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, [00:11:20] I think at the time, well, I didn’t think it was going to happen because you don’t really get confirmed until quite late [00:11:25] on. But all the meetings and stuff, I just had it in my head, as probably, I probably will get pulled [00:11:30] out last minute. It won’t happen. I didn’t really think about it, if I’m honest. It was only towards the very end where [00:11:35] contracts and stuff were coming through. I just thought, oh my God, I’m really going to have to choose now. Um, [00:11:40] spoke to I think everyone around me was hesitant. I had one person that [00:11:45] was like, yes, absolutely have to do this. Everyone else, a lot of my Dental friends were like, don’t do it. [00:11:50] Um, Kayla said not to do it. Why? I think they were very much like there was a stigma [00:11:55] attached with it. Um, and what if you mess up? What if you get cancelled? Um, [00:12:00] just loads of things.

Rhona Eskander: Can I tell you? Um, I think it’s one of the bravest things you’ve ever done. And if you [00:12:05] ask me, one of my biggest regrets is in life. It was not going on a reality TV show when I got asked [00:12:10] when I first qualified in 2010, about 2011 Made and Chelsea had just started, [00:12:15] I knew quite a lot of the cast. I got put forward like by three people. I [00:12:20] said no because I was too worried what people think for all of those reasons, and I think it’s one of the worst decisions [00:12:25] I ever made in my life.

Payman Langroudi: What would have happened to you if you hadn’t gone on that?

Rhona Eskander: But you’ll never know. But at the end of the day, [00:12:30] I think that, you know, it gives you a platform and it gives you like opportunities that you [00:12:35] may never have.

Payman Langroudi: And we had. We’ve had guests.

Payman Langroudi: Here saying that it ruined their lives.

Rhona Eskander: True. [00:12:40] It can happen, and we know that. And I’m sure Nelly will tell you the same about some people that have been at MAFs, that their mental health [00:12:45] was probably on a string. You know, some people. But at the end of the day, I think it’s a brave thing to do. It’s [00:12:50] a brave decision.

Payman Langroudi: So how did you feel going against everyone’s advice? Yeah, that must have been.

Rhona Eskander: Did you worry? [00:12:55] Did people impact you and be like, oh, should I, should I do this?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. I mean, I felt like a bit of a badass. I was like, you know what? [00:13:00] I don’t care what anyone thinks. I’m going to do it anyway because I never I very much care what people think. And I think [00:13:05] for the first time in my life, I thought, no, I’m going to do it. Um.

Payman Langroudi: But Nelly, you know, talking to you [00:13:10] before. Yeah. One thing I noticed about you is you’ve got very cool parents.

Neelima Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, not [00:13:15] your typical Asian parents.

Neelima Patel: No, they’re the best, aren’t they?

Payman Langroudi: So, you know, maybe that gives you.

Rhona Eskander: Did you talk [00:13:20] to them about it before you?

Payman Langroudi: What did they say?

Rhona Eskander: What did they say? Or did you talk to them after you got confirmed?

Neelima Patel: No, I told I told [00:13:25] them before my dad was like, this is a ridiculous idea. It is my mum and my mum [00:13:30] was there. Like, I think it sounds great because she watches it. So she was like, that sounds fun. And [00:13:35] my brother and sister were very hesitant. But I think my mom and dad, I kind of said to them, like, look, I’m going to do [00:13:40] what I want anyway. So you either get on board with it or you don’t. So that’s why my dad came around. They’ll never stop me from, [00:13:45] like, doing. I think he knows that he can never stop me.

Rhona Eskander: Have a question for you. Why did [00:13:50] you want to go on a reality TV program based on love? Did you feel at that point in [00:13:55] your life you were ready for love, and you’d almost kind of given up on dating? Did you feel like you wanted [00:14:00] to put your love life in experts hands? Like, what was the catalyst? Because there’s love and blind and maths. And if [00:14:05] the premise is essentially meeting somebody, connecting on that level and moving things very quickly. [00:14:10] Right. So something inside of you must have felt, I’m ready for this. Is that fair [00:14:15] to say?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, 100%. Like I was very ready to. I hate the dating scene. I [00:14:20] didn’t enjoy it. Then I’d stop dating for a little while, and I just kind of thought, well, I’m getting on a bit and [00:14:25] it’s fun. I think I find reality TV fascinating. I watch it, um, and I thought, what if I [00:14:30] get to be one of the lucky ones that actually gets matched up perfectly well and they end up together.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so that was the.

Neelima Patel: I [00:14:35] really did want to meet someone. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. So they called you up and they said you’ve been successful. Yeah. [00:14:40] At that point, did you know anything about the person they were setting you up with?

Neelima Patel: Literally not a single thing.

Rhona Eskander: Fine. [00:14:45] And did you then have to with work what happened? Because I’m assuming the filming schedule [00:14:50] conflicted. You know, how did you have to tell Kailash? Did you have to get time off kiss? How did it work?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. So I took [00:14:55] like ten weeks off work. I rang Kailash when? [00:15:00] Not before. I was before I was confirmed, actually, I rang Kailash just to tell him, like, look, this is in the pipeline. It’s something [00:15:05] that I really do want to do, but I’ve not decided yet. And I was very 5050 at this point. And K was like, [00:15:10] um, look, I don’t I don’t think you should do it. I don’t think it’s a good idea. But if you do, I’ll support you. [00:15:15] And that was the green light for me. Yeah. So. Well, it was nice because I just thought, well, I’ve got time to think [00:15:20] about it then I’ve got at least I know I can have it off if I need to. Let me actually just go into a decision based on. [00:15:25] Yeah. So then, um. Yeah. So then I had [00:15:30] to take off 12. Well, ten weeks. Sorry, I took off ten weeks. Um, with my patients. Why? I [00:15:35] did a lot for a lot of people try to finish their treatments off. So I did like extra evenings, did a few weekends, [00:15:40] finished them off, and then any new patients, I saw any remedial work. I had [00:15:45] Lucy, who works at Kiss and she appeared on the show, but she basically looked after all my patients. [00:15:50]

Rhona Eskander: Okay, fine. Amazing. So first you rock up and I remember that [00:15:55] first scene and you looked absolutely stunning. You didn’t see it. She was in her beautiful traditional [00:16:00] Asian wedding.

Payman Langroudi: Is a wedding. Wedding so mad.

Rhona Eskander: Well, the first scene is The Bachelorette, so, [00:16:05] like, you kind of get to know the bachelorettes and the bachelors, and they, they meet each other and they [00:16:10] chat for a little bit, but you don’t really get a great deal.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. We don’t meet the other husbands, we.

Rhona Eskander: Just meet the other ones. But [00:16:15] then then it goes straight basically into the weddings. So yeah, I remember it was an incredible scene. [00:16:20] She’d come in in this incredible, beautiful outfit and traditional outfit, [00:16:25] um, Indian bride. And you see this guy at the altar, and that’s the first time. [00:16:30]

Payman Langroudi: They take your feedback on what you want your wedding to be like or.

Neelima Patel: Like a little bit. So they said, [00:16:35] choose some colour schemes like tick out of the box what you like. And then that was pretty much it. [00:16:40] And then I said, I can’t get married without Paeonies and that’s pretty much all I got.

Rhona Eskander: And then they, I guess they [00:16:45] set the budget and stuff for the wedding, right? Because the TV show paid for it. Uh, and the experts, how many [00:16:50] conversations do you have with them about what you want?

Neelima Patel: The only. So we actually [00:16:55] have, um, just one.

Rhona Eskander: That’s it. That’s scary. Huh?

Payman Langroudi: So [00:17:00] then they match you based on.

Neelima Patel: Because we do, like, there’s loads of forms and stuff. We do loads of personality tests, [00:17:05] that kind of thing. And then we have, like, a face to face.

Rhona Eskander: I have to say though, I think they get it so wrong. Like [00:17:10] as the person that watches the TV show, like as like objectively or subjectively, I [00:17:15] was like, I think they’ve got this so wrong. And I actually think it was quite a poor reflection on the experts. I’m just going [00:17:20] to come out there and say that, and I absolutely adore someone like Paul, for example. But I was [00:17:25] just like, how have they got like, not just for you, but on so many levels of so many different people?

Neelima Patel: Well, technically, [00:17:30] I don’t actually know whether I’m allowed to say this or not, but they have like a so on that day where you [00:17:35] choose your what you kind of want for your wedding and stuff, they have a psychiatrist [00:17:40] who does your personality. She basically does all these questions and stuff and then she technically matches [00:17:45] you. I don’t know how it works. I still don’t know how they.

Rhona Eskander: The experts aren’t the matchmakers.

Neelima Patel: But then I think but we see we don’t [00:17:50] even still know. I don’t know whether they get to do last approvals of them or they say, look, this person [00:17:55] could match either this I would it makes sense to say this person can match these three people. Who do you think is [00:18:00] going to work best? And then the experts have a say. But I think the experts I remember watching a clip that Paul said [00:18:05] that he doesn’t get to choose us. He just gets to choose. These are the people that are presented to him, and then the experts [00:18:10] have to match within that.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so interesting. You know, like it’s fascinating.

Neelima Patel: I’ve been on the show. [00:18:15] I still don’t know how exactly they match.

Payman Langroudi: There’s so much about it. It’s an arranged marriage.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:18:20] but I think but I think that’s the premise. And that’s why I find it so interesting. I interesting. I think, that we’ve become [00:18:25] an age and society where women have become so disillusioned [00:18:30] with the dating scene and the promise of happily ever after, [00:18:35] that they’re happy now to put their lives in someone else’s hands. Like, that’s why these dating shows are so popular. [00:18:40]

Neelima Patel: Out there, man. It’s really rough on the dating scene, I’ve got to tell you.

Payman Langroudi: And we’ll go on, go on. Expand on [00:18:45] that, because.

Rhona Eskander: Payman.

Neelima Patel: Do you want to have a look at my dating apps and then you’ll understand.

Payman Langroudi: No, but really, it’s been [00:18:50] a while, so it’s just horrendous. The story.

Neelima Patel: Nothing. It’s just just I mean, the types of men [00:18:55] I’ve dated, obviously they weren’t great because that’s why I went on MAFs, but it’s just hard. I think even [00:19:00] dating now, like even trying to get a connection. I think this the swiping culture is so people will always think, [00:19:05] and I’ve been guilty of it too, of I can do better. Or if you kind of start talking to someone and it [00:19:10] veers off, or you kind of been dating them for a little bit and then.

Rhona Eskander: Fizzles.

Neelima Patel: Fizzles, I think before, because [00:19:15] it’s so hard to meet someone organically, you kind of want to try and work at it a little bit or find out, but now you just think, [00:19:20] whatever, I’ll just swipe and find somebody else.

Rhona Eskander: I think. Listen, I think ultimately [00:19:25] as well. I saw a clip the other day that I did about attracting narcissists, [00:19:30] and I think, like, there is definitely something to be said for women that are high powered career [00:19:35] women. And we’ve talked about this a lot and pay and I yeah, it is difficult because I think naturally [00:19:40] also the kind of men that we get duped by or attracted to isn’t good. [00:19:45] And that’s why we say like it’s really important to do the work. And when you change your mindset about what you find [00:19:50] is attractive, it really does help. You know, because I’ve gone through like three years [00:19:55] of just like, picking the wrong people. Yeah. And I think, you know, I was like, well, I’m also the [00:20:00] common denominator because I’m allowing them to come into my life. I [00:20:05] remember seeing at the altar I didn’t like him from day one. I’m not gonna lie. Yeah.

Neelima Patel: So many people have said this that they picked [00:20:10] up on.

Rhona Eskander: It, but he was just like, you know, you are this high, empowered, incredibly [00:20:15] educated woman. And I just felt like he was just very much Jack the lad. [00:20:20] Just just.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Rhona Eskander: Know, but I think that he just he was to me. [00:20:25] He wasn’t there for the right reasons. I think you could tell that from the beginning. Like he was there for a bit of fun. And then when the story [00:20:30] unravels, which we’ll talk about, he was he wasn’t taking this seriously.

Neelima Patel: He had a whole [00:20:35] girlfriend before he ghosted her on the wedding day.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. See. Yeah, yeah. And he’s he’s [00:20:40] he’s he’s he’s got children, which obviously there’s nothing wrong with that. But you think that somebody [00:20:45] with that amount of responsibility would be a little bit more mature about these situations, but you weren’t feeling [00:20:50] that that was somebody that was like capable of like huge amounts of responsibility, you know? Yeah, that [00:20:55] was my intuition.

Payman Langroudi: When you first saw.

Rhona Eskander: It. Yeah. What was your thing when you first.

Payman Langroudi: Saw the attracted? What [00:21:00] how did.

Rhona Eskander: You what happened?

Neelima Patel: I my attraction is based on personality. Like, I mean, [00:21:05] when I saw him, I thought, yeah, great. Kind of. What? I’ve dated over six foot tall. [00:21:10] That was that was it. And I thought, oh, his eyes. Yeah. It looks like he’s got [00:21:15] nice eyes. Which on the now I watch it back and I think they [00:21:20] look very evil sometimes, but. Yeah. No. Um, yeah. I think when I first saw him, I was just like, yeah, [00:21:25] okay, I can, I can, I can work with this. We can get to know each other. Yeah, I was happy I was yeah, I was [00:21:30] really happy on the day. I was.

Rhona Eskander: Kidding. You said the honeymoon went really well.

Neelima Patel: The honeymoon was perfect. Yeah, it was really, really good.

Rhona Eskander: Do [00:21:35] you feel like he was pretending to be someone he wasn’t?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Or maybe. See, [00:21:40] I sometimes I think, is it that he was pretending to be that person? Or because [00:21:45] he pretended extremely well on that honeymoon like it was. It was wild, but. Or was it that when [00:21:50] he came back to the apartments and he saw all the other wives? I don’t know.

Rhona Eskander: Question [00:21:55] for you as well. Maybe you are not allowed to say this. Do you get legally married? I know that sounds weird. Or is it until not until [00:22:00] the renewal of the vows?

Neelima Patel: I think it used to be a legal marriage, but it’s not anymore. But they have, like full on [00:22:05] celebrants that they hire and stuff, so it makes you feel like it is a really.

Rhona Eskander: But it’s not signed, sealed, delivered. Right. [00:22:10] Is the is the renewal of the vows? No. No neither. Okay, fine. So in theory, they’re [00:22:15] not real, as it were. Was, and that they’re not legally binding.

Neelima Patel: Not legally binding. But you do feel like [00:22:20] it’s really real. Like the experts are very like it’s very real that you refer to each other [00:22:25] as your wife and your husband. Like, you wouldn’t just be like my mate over there or my girlfriend or whatever.

Payman Langroudi: On [00:22:30] this question of who should you marry? Yeah, the I mean, you’re [00:22:35] saying the honeymoon went well. Yeah. The for me and you’ve just been through it. Yeah. [00:22:40] The person you should marry is the one you want to push your wheelchair.

Rhona Eskander: Well, I’ve said this to [00:22:45] you before, so Payman and I have had this argument and let me finish, because now, having [00:22:50] been through so Payman always said like he believes. And we had actually an amazing neuroscientist [00:22:55] on the podcast just before Christmas that like real love is when you can’t sleep. [00:23:00] You’re so anxious, you feel like you do anything.

Payman Langroudi: You’re like, I feel like you educated me a bit.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Thank you. And we [00:23:05] educated him and I said, that’s that’s a trauma bond and that’s you. Actually, that’s your nervous [00:23:10] system telling you in some way something’s not right. Because when you start and you experience that with [00:23:15] Stephen, I feel like the moment you start feeling your nervous system firing, that’s not love. That’s [00:23:20] trauma. Do you see what I mean? Because you’re feeling like something is really being ignited. And like, as you [00:23:25] had as you had said here, the person that pushes your wheelchair like, that’s [00:23:30] definitely my husband. Like, he’s a very. And Buddha even says Buddha. So you [00:23:35] listen to Buddha. Buddha says, when you beat the Buddha says that when you meet the right person, you’ll feel [00:23:40] a sense of calm. You’re not going to feel a sense of stress and anxiety. And that’s the thing. Like the person [00:23:45] that makes you feel calm is the person you should be with the person. And I’m not saying boring because [00:23:50] people often like conflate that. And actually, Esther Perel was the one that said that human [00:23:55] beings really struggle with safety and desire because in itself you can’t have desire with [00:24:00] safety because it’s deemed to be quite boring. And that’s why she works a lot with couples, because [00:24:05] that fiery up and down is like a drug. It’s like having a high and then a low and then a high and [00:24:10] then.

Neelima Patel: A full on chemical imbalance.

Rhona Eskander: In your brain. Yeah, exactly. And you take consumes your whole day and it consumes [00:24:15] your whole, like, thinking process. Yeah. So.

Payman Langroudi: But but then on that point, [00:24:20] you’ve been in a few relationships before. When you think about the ones that were right [00:24:25] or wrong, whatever that question of how do people react [00:24:30] in difficult times? Do you agree that that’s I.

Neelima Patel: Think it’s very [00:24:35] telling.

Payman Langroudi: Key point? Yeah, because life’s full of difficult. I mean, we can all enjoy Ferraris [00:24:40] and private jets. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, anyone. Absolutely.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. [00:24:45] No, no, 100%. I do agree with that.

Payman Langroudi: So then. Okay, so on the honeymoon you enjoyed, but the honeymoon, [00:24:50] I expect was somewhere nice and whatever.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, I was in Jamaica. Had the best.

Payman Langroudi: Time.

Neelima Patel: There. Yeah, it was lovely. Yeah. Um, and then we came [00:24:55] back, moved into the apartments, and then you have, like, your first dinner party when you [00:25:00] meet all the other couples and see who everyone’s been matched up with.

Rhona Eskander: Do you feel that’s when it changed?

Neelima Patel: There [00:25:05] was something like just on that first initial. Just [00:25:10] when we move back to the apartments, like intimacy had stopped and it just was a bit strange and [00:25:15] it was a bit different. And I just felt.

Rhona Eskander: Literally just from the moment you came.

Neelima Patel: Back. Yeah, really, really odd. But it [00:25:20] was obviously really different on honeymoon. I remember coming back and, you know, just feel an energy shift. [00:25:25] And then I thought, maybe it’s just because we moved in and I’ve never lived with a guy before, and maybe I’m being the weird, awkward [00:25:30] one because this is this is alien to me. And then I just asked him, like, is everything all right? Like, you’ve been [00:25:35] a bit. And he was like, yeah, no. Fine. So then obviously you start internalising it and thinking, I’m going insane. Is it [00:25:40] just me? And then I had to. And then. Yeah, at the apartments. That’s when I continued to call him out on it. [00:25:45] And that’s when everything started. The moment I really called him out on it and said, no, I need an answer from you. [00:25:50] Um, you haven’t been the same. That’s when his behaviour really changed. [00:25:55]

Payman Langroudi: This is all on camera.

Rhona Eskander: No, this wasn’t.

Neelima Patel: Seen was we were all at the pub on a Sunday. [00:26:00] That’s where all the arguments used to happen.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: Off camera, because we’d all go for a drink.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No, [00:26:05] I didn’t see that bit there. And then. Did you find it? Obviously. Then I saw, [00:26:10] you know, you see the relationship develop. You see how much he was gaslighting you. You see how difficult [00:26:15] it was. At what point did you think, oh my God, I just don’t know if this is going to work. Do [00:26:20] you think you knew deep down from the beginning?

Neelima Patel: I think, I [00:26:25] think when I thought this really like hand this work was when [00:26:30] Paul Brunson had told well said, said like, you know, you’re gaslighting her. But then [00:26:35] in that same breath, he’d also said, you know, I don’t think it’s intentional and people can change bad behaviour. It’s not [00:26:40] a bad person. It’s just it, you know, it’s a good person, a bad behaviour. And then Stephen really had fixed up that next [00:26:45] week we did a 180. We were we were really happy again. So then I think that probably [00:26:50] suckered me back in and made me think, okay, look, he’s learning. He’s willing to change. You know, I obviously liked him. [00:26:55] Um, obviously watching it back, I’m like, you silly girl. Yeah, but yeah, [00:27:00] that’s. Yeah. It’s hard.

Rhona Eskander: So the one thing I knew that you got a lot of shit for which I think was really unfair, [00:27:05] is when people were saying that you were projecting insecurity and that it was your fault. And obviously [00:27:10] there was drama. Julia, Ruth, let me just update you on that. There was this girl that caused a lot of drama. She was like the villain of [00:27:15] the show. I don’t know if she actually was, but that’s the way they labelled her. Who knows? That could have been me. Made in Chelsea. But anyway, [00:27:20] um, she ultimately developed a crush on this guy and [00:27:25] was, like, accusing Nelly. Yeah, it’s all a bit messy. Um, she’s basically accusing [00:27:30] Nelly for being too insecure and that he deserves a strong, empowered woman [00:27:35] and that, like. And obviously, you can see Nelly as a strong, empowered woman. So she was she was really being a pick me girl.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:27:40] a pick me girl.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So pick me, pick me. Yeah. You know girls that like [00:27:45] another man’s side, that kind of vibe. Yeah. Um, so ultimately. Yeah. [00:27:50] And I think that unfortunately, a lot of people in the public were also like, Nelly, stop being so insecure. [00:27:55] And then I think you had realised as well that you needed to give yourself more self-love and self-compassion. But [00:28:00] I feel like we’ve really been there. Like, you know, when you feel like something’s slipping away from you and [00:28:05] you clutch as hard as you can before it slips. I feel like that’s typical human behaviour, so I think it [00:28:10] wasn’t fair that people didn’t give you the grace. But how was that for you? Because that must have been quite difficult to see [00:28:15] and hear from people.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, we all have our insecurities and I remember when I got that trolling, [00:28:20] I was a bit like, I didn’t expect that. I’m like, there’s obviously there’s very obviously objectively one [00:28:25] person who’s behaving poorly here. Yeah. And it ain’t me. Yeah. So yeah, I was like, how is this turning around [00:28:30] on me? Um, for the first few days, I was actually getting really frustrated and I thought, you’re all going [00:28:35] to feel so stupid when you all realise I was right. And I think that’s what got me through. It was a couple of hard weeks where I was just [00:28:40] getting trolled a lot. But yeah, I think me knowing I was like, all those people trolling me, you’re gonna eat [00:28:45] your words when you watch the reunion, because you will understand that my insecurity [00:28:50] wasn’t insecurity. It’s called intuition.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Question for you as well. Um, [00:28:55] do you feel that it didn’t show [00:29:00] the right actual situation that had happened? Do you see what I mean? So when the edit was done at that point, do you feel like it wasn’t [00:29:05] reality? And that was done for TV? So they had sort of taken away the reality of what was happening [00:29:10] to keep you on tenterhooks.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, I think there was an aspect of it because like, for example, you know, [00:29:15] the whole thing about me saying, you know, with Julia Ruth that she plotted to take him away. She wanted him for [00:29:20] partner swap. She wanted to stay in the experiment for however long people. Loads of comments were [00:29:25] very much, well, how do we even know that’s happened? Nellie’s just made that out of thin air and no one said anything when I called her [00:29:30] out at the commitment ceremony. It’s because Maeve and Kiera told me. And then obviously Julia Ruth at the commitment ceremony said, no, [00:29:35] no, it wasn’t me. That’s not how it happened. They cut the bit out of Kieran Maeve saying, yes, it did, [00:29:40] yes you did. Like that’s why there was no other arguments. Everyone was like, well, obviously you’ve said it. Two people who were [00:29:45] your friends have called you out on it because they don’t agree with that behaviour. So little things like that get cut out. So [00:29:50] then it becomes a well, who’s right, which I get for entertainment. So I remember you get welfare calls [00:29:55] all the time. Like they are really, really like every single day you get a call. If you’ve got a particularly rough episode, you’ll [00:30:00] get a call in a briefing. You can ask for transcripts as well and stuff. Um, so, like, for some really triggering [00:30:05] episodes, I had, like, you get calls and stuff, but apart from that, like, I remember ringing them going, [00:30:10] are you not having me on? I went, this is ridiculous. I was like, I look like a psycho. Yeah, like, [00:30:15] this isn’t me. And they were like, yeah, fair enough. They’re like, but remember, it is. They’re like, we have to [00:30:20] the basic the drop is going to be even better.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: So yeah. So I think [00:30:25] that’s what it was.

Rhona Eskander: And what kind of things were people trolling you on?

Neelima Patel: Um, a lot about mostly about [00:30:30] my insecurities and that I need therapy and that I shouldn’t be with anybody until. [00:30:35] Well, don’t we all need therapy? And I have therapy, and you don’t have to be. I don’t agree with the whole. [00:30:40] You have to be fully healed before you meet somebody.

Rhona Eskander: Listen, I’m still in therapy. I mean, we’re all there. We go. [00:30:45]

Neelima Patel: Like, we’re all healing. Like we’re all growing. Yes, I’m if you compare me my mindset to this time [00:30:50] last year, I am a different person. Yeah. Um, there’s been loads of growth. Which maps has really helped me [00:30:55] with. But yeah, I think a lot of the trolling was insecurity That you [00:31:00] need to be healed. You shouldn’t find you should find someone once you’re healed. And then a lot on my nose. Whatever. [00:31:05] It’s wonky, I don’t care.

Rhona Eskander: Oh my gosh. But people, people troll me still all the time about [00:31:10] the way I look.

Neelima Patel: I’m just like, okay. I’m like, thanks for your observation.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, no.

Neelima Patel: I’m too busy to look at your comment because I’m at [00:31:15] work.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. No good. I think you have to have that really thick skin.

Payman Langroudi: And then the there [00:31:20] was a sort of a inflection point when he asked you, how much do you earn?

Neelima Patel: Oh, yes. [00:31:25]

Rhona Eskander: It was that. I didn’t see that.

Neelima Patel: No, that wasn’t it wasn’t filmed. It was on the honeymoon when we were waiting for the [00:31:30] camera crew was setting up the last dinner, so we were having some drinks at the bar, and that’s when I noticed the energy [00:31:35] shift. But then I told myself it wasn’t that. But now I think it probably was.

Payman Langroudi: It came up on Shivani’s pod, which [00:31:40] I listened to and go on. So what happened? He said, how much do you earn?

Neelima Patel: We’ll. Yeah, we’ll just sat [00:31:45] at the bar and then he just kind of said like, oh, like, how much do you earn? And I remember thinking, I don’t really [00:31:50] want to go into that because I can bet it’s going to be more than you like. Do you know [00:31:55] what I mean?

Rhona Eskander: Like, listen, I think, look, I say this to pay and I think, I think this is a conversation [00:32:00] and a topic that should be discussed. A lot of men, [00:32:05] I don’t think will like women outearning them. And to be honest, [00:32:10] this is a bit controversial. I don’t really like myself out earning a man when [00:32:15] I. I didn’t ever pick a partner for money because I didn’t need it. As you know, as [00:32:20] dentists, we don’t need it. But it was important to me that the partner [00:32:25] that I was with displayed ambition and even more so, being a mother, when you have to [00:32:30] take that time out, and even more so when you have an unpredictable life situation.

Payman Langroudi: Ambition. [00:32:35]

Rhona Eskander: No. But listen.

Payman Langroudi: Ambitious.

Rhona Eskander: Like listen life situation, life [00:32:40] situation, cancel him. Life situation. Like when you have a life situation, [00:32:45] for me, it’s really attractive when a man can step into [00:32:50] looking after me and the family. And a lot of people might not appreciate me saying [00:32:55] that a lot of people might be like, oh, don’t, you’re so materialistic. But I think that’s.

Neelima Patel: 100%, because that’s exactly how I feel. [00:33:00] I always say to my friends, they always say, you know, you don’t need to worry about what they earn. And I agree, I don’t because I [00:33:05] can look after myself. I can look after. I can look after, you know what I mean? I can look after families or whatever. But I just [00:33:10] think, yeah, but if I want to have children, I want to have a family. I’m gonna have to take time off work. [00:33:15] I’m self-employed, I don’t have. Yeah, so I couldn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Payman will tell you. I was in that hospital [00:33:20] for two months. I could not even look at anything to do with Chelsea Dental. I could not fathom it. Like [00:33:25] my baby was in an incubator. I was in ICU like I could not, and my husband [00:33:30] stepped in and did everything because he could. And he has the academic ability, [00:33:35] the ambition and the drive to like, look after me. And I think that that is [00:33:40] rare, but that’s also what’s important to me. It might not be important to other people.

Payman Langroudi: How do you feel about that? [00:33:45] So do you feel like your ideal partner would earn the same [00:33:50] as you?

Neelima Patel: More in an ideal world, he would earn more than me. Because then we could have.

Payman Langroudi: More [00:33:55] money.

Neelima Patel: Together. But yeah, I look. I mean, there is no problem. [00:34:00] It just depends, doesn’t it? Like.

Rhona Eskander: But obviously with Stephen it didn’t bother you, right? Because at that point [00:34:05] you.

Neelima Patel: Were like, I’m here for.

Rhona Eskander: The.

Neelima Patel: Love. Yeah, I’m here for the love. And also I’d pretty much sort of in my [00:34:10] head, I’d gathered from.

Rhona Eskander: What he does.

Neelima Patel: People who are earning, [00:34:15] men who are earning more than me aren’t going to be on a reality show.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: Do you know what I mean? So I knew I kind of knew that going [00:34:20] into it, but I thought, you know what? If he is the perfect guy and he’s still driven, he’s still ambitious. Exactly. So you.

Rhona Eskander: Can still have [00:34:25] ambition.

Neelima Patel: And I can have an intellectual conversation with him that’s not just about like, football or something. [00:34:30] I was like, if he’s a good person, then fine, I don’t like not that I don’t care about the money, but that isn’t going [00:34:35] to be as big of a factor as how I feel about you. Yeah, I think that was when actually I thought, [00:34:40] you know what? I’m going to stop going for also high achievers. I think that’s what my friends would always say. You know, [00:34:45] you are one. How do I say it? I feel you used to filter [00:34:50] men not based on what they would earn, but depending on their job, like if it was going to be miles [00:34:55] apart, then I just know that power dynamic is never going to work. Yeah, like I have to be realistic about it and it [00:35:00] is a controversial subject. But I’m like, if we are worlds apart, how are you ever going to be okay with that? You’re not.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:35:05] don’t think it should be because also men have it that way too. Like you told me, you have some friends that would [00:35:10] find it really difficult being with a woman that would earn more than them. Or you’ve had a friend like [00:35:15] that and they really struggle with that power dynamic, you said. I think it works both ways. Like some [00:35:20] men don’t want to be with women that earn more than them.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know those traditional gender [00:35:25] roles, as much as we like to say they don’t exist, they do. They do exist. [00:35:30] Right. Yeah. And and so but the question is what [00:35:35] happened? So you figured out or you told them how much you earned.

Neelima Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:35:40] then what you felt you felt like he felt he was insecure about it.

Neelima Patel: Well, yeah. Because then I was like, well, [00:35:45] in my head I was like, well, I’ve just told you, you tell me. Then I was like, well, what do you earn? And then it was it was [00:35:50] again. It was still a good salary, but it I obviously I think I earned like three, 2 or 3 times more than [00:35:55] him. So then I remember thinking and then he just got really quiet. And I remember just thinking, oh hell, [00:36:00] I shouldn’t have done that. But it was it was the best week we had. Like, we had such a lovely week. We’d [00:36:05] like got to know each other. And I just thought.

Rhona Eskander: If that’s going to be the.

Neelima Patel: Moment.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, no, but it’s a funny [00:36:10] thing, man, because I know guys who are the other way round, you know, they go they go for rich girls. And [00:36:15] so.

Rhona Eskander: If.

Payman Langroudi: If, if he was like, oh great, you earn three times what I earn, I’d be kind of worried [00:36:20] about that too.

[Transition]: Yeah. There’s no right answer, isn’t that. Yeah.

Neelima Patel: Just want someone that’s not [00:36:25] that doesn’t even care. Don’t don’t ask me.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. I mean listen, I always said like again. And it’s [00:36:30] funny because I just came back from Dubai as well with my partner. And my partner has always been so supportive [00:36:35] of everything that I’ve ever done and career wise. But my best friend that lives in her in [00:36:40] Dubai, she pretty much gave up her career in her 20s because her husband really likes [00:36:45] the traditional roles and now an Arab. No, he’s not actually, he’s like a north London [00:36:50] boy from London. But they moved. They did expat life basically. Um, in, in, [00:36:55] in, um, you know, around the world. And I think now that the kids are older because they had kids like, [00:37:00] I don’t know, when she was like 30, she now wants to move into that, like, oh, I want a career. [00:37:05] But you can see that it makes him nervous. He’s like, you don’t need to work. You don’t need to work. Do you know what I mean? He’s like, [00:37:10] you know, you do what you do best, which is look after the kids, you know, and to be honest [00:37:15] with you, you know, like, it works for some people. I guess it all depends on that. And I find it [00:37:20] interesting that the experts or the matchmaker, whoever it is, doesn’t have that conversation, because [00:37:25] I think that’s a really important part of matchmaking someone long term, I really do. I think [00:37:30] that money conversation has to be had.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Well, I think what was hard as well, I think he’d sort of said he was an investment [00:37:35] banking kind of it. Everyone sort of thought he was.

Rhona Eskander: A finance.

Neelima Patel: Bro. Yeah. And he wasn’t.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah [00:37:40] yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Neelima Patel: So I think like everyone got a bit bamboozled. Yeah I think everyone was like oh right. [00:37:45] Okay.

Rhona Eskander: I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Because maybe you had also mentioned during your interviews that you [00:37:50] wanted to be with someone that was, you know.

Neelima Patel: That was we spoke about this. Yeah. With when I spoke to the like, [00:37:55] um, the psychiatrists and stuff, she’s like, what do you want in a man? I was like, I want someone ambitious, driven. Yes, fine. They [00:38:00] don’t have to earn as much as me, but just someone who still has a decent job, a [00:38:05] decent job, salary. I was like, you can’t. The gap can’t be that big between us. Otherwise it would just be a bit weird. Yeah, [00:38:10] but then I also said I, you know, I’m aware that men who go on reality TV shows wouldn’t tend [00:38:15] to.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the whole thing is ten weeks, right? Yeah. [00:38:20] And what, as the show progressed, do you feel like more and more [00:38:25] his true colours started to come out?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. To be honest, I was surprised that he didn’t. He couldn’t last longer [00:38:30] than. Well he kicked off quite early on.

Rhona Eskander: When do you say what about after two weeks. [00:38:35] Three weeks?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, 2 or 3 weeks. I think that’s when it started sort of going wrong. Um, but [00:38:40] yeah, I just think, I mean, I would say all the time and say like he hates me. Or I [00:38:45] know deep down that this guy doesn’t like me. Um, but it got to a point where I was like, [00:38:50] he’s venomous. And I would say to him, I was like, there’s venom behind what you’re saying and what you’re doing. And then [00:38:55] it was hard because then I’d get some of the guys like, nah, he doesn’t mean it. He doesn’t, you know, he doesn’t mean to [00:39:00] say it like that. Then he would say, no, I didn’t mean it like that. And then you kind of think, well, am I? Am I seeing [00:39:05] these things? Obviously some of these things I’ve now watched back and I’m like, no, there was so much venom there. [00:39:10] But you don’t I don’t even like, for example, I think the.

Rhona Eskander: Do you think that’s his character? Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like [00:39:15] it’s not you. I feel like he would have been venomous. I feel like he’s been venomous in the past. I don’t think you’re the first.

Neelima Patel: I think he’s venomous [00:39:20] to a woman he doesn’t like or. Or some. I think he’s venomous to somebody who holds up a mirror. He [00:39:25] doesn’t like the reflection. So unfortunately, I would. I would hold it up constantly. [00:39:30] Yes. It took me a while to, like, have the courage to really stand up for myself, but I would question things along the way. [00:39:35] I think a lot of people were saying, you know, why did the experts allow this to go on [00:39:40] for so long? They’ve kicked out other couples when it’s been too toxic in the past. Um, like on the [00:39:45] on mafs, UK. But I think the reason they probably didn’t was because, yes, Steven’s behaviour [00:39:50] was manipulative and it was toxic, but I think because I was questioning it throughout, I think [00:39:55] they probably saw that she’s got room for growth. Um, so.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, you made some [00:40:00] amazing girlfriends though as well. And the people that were depicted as villains, were [00:40:05] they actually villains?

Neelima Patel: Who would you say was depicted a villain?

Rhona Eskander: I’d say Sarah and Julia. [00:40:10] Ruth and I actually felt really sorry for Sarah, if I’m honest with you. Which, again, I thought was just such a terrible mismatch. [00:40:15] I was like, how did they get it so wrong?

Payman Langroudi: Explain, explain to someone who doesn’t know what the hell’s going on.

Rhona Eskander: So. [00:40:20] So ultimately, um, Sarah was another character, and she’d always gone for, like, the bad [00:40:25] boy with tattoos, like, a very type of aesthetic. And she was like, I’m really ready to meet the nicest [00:40:30] guy in the world. But when I tell you, they went for the most polar opposite of her physical type [00:40:35] and they kind of stitched her up. So people thought because he was the nicest guy in the world, [00:40:40] that she was a bitch because she didn’t like him. But it was like, you can’t go for someone. You can’t match [00:40:45] up with someone that’s so physically opposite of what she would go for, and then expect her to fall [00:40:50] in love. Do you know what I mean? It’d be like you saying like, oh, I want a really nice lady, but then going so opposite. [00:40:55] And I think it was really me because she got really trolled and people were like, you’re [00:41:00] awful, you should die. Like it was awful. The comments I saw it like, he’s the nicest guy. He’s [00:41:05] so nice. But if you’re not attracted to him, you’re attracted to him. It’s end of story. Do you know what I mean?

Neelima Patel: Yeah. See, Sarah’s actually a really, [00:41:10] really nice girl. Like, really, really nice girl. So that was really unfair.

Rhona Eskander: Julia. Ruth.

Neelima Patel: Julie. [00:41:15] Ruth. Julia. Ruth. Do you know what I mean? She came in. I mean, I hope she’s [00:41:20] done some growth from it. Um.

Rhona Eskander: Clearly not. She’s been with, like, three of the men on the show.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, [00:41:25] I mean, what.

Rhona Eskander: They were partnered up for someone else pick me.

[Transition]: Yeah. [00:41:30]

Neelima Patel: So the thing is, if you if you and your husband don’t want to be together, you leave the experiment together, [00:41:35] and that’s it. Your time’s done. It’s not like a wife swap. It’s not like a Love island.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, I can just go in.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, so, yeah, [00:41:40] it’s setting you up for that situation that. Let’s say this guy wasn’t into you and [00:41:45] he wanted to get out. But if he did get out, he wouldn’t be on the show any longer. So then [00:41:50] that’s the show makes it that people will lie. And if I mean, [00:41:55] you know, at the end of the day, someone who’s being on a a show wants to stay on the [00:42:00] show. Yeah. Is that right?

Neelima Patel: To an extent, I think there’s a point where you’re just like, there’s no show that [00:42:05] can keep me here in this hellhole.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah.

Neelima Patel: Do you know what I mean? But sometimes you’ve just. I mean, [00:42:10] look, people go on there. Definitely.

Rhona Eskander: So there was. I mean, listen, who else? And. Oh, I forgot her name. [00:42:15] Now, the one that was with Ashley Grace. Yeah, she also was villainized as well.

Neelima Patel: I really [00:42:20] like Grace. I have so much time for Grace. I think she’s she’s really, really nice. I think the edit was quite. [00:42:25]

Rhona Eskander: Basically it was.

Neelima Patel: Really interesting.

Rhona Eskander: Because she’s again, poor matchmaking. This is what I think super duper [00:42:30] feminist like hardcore.

Neelima Patel: Like she would do anything for a woman. She would walk through fire to [00:42:35] help out another woman. She really.

Rhona Eskander: Would. But they matched up with quite a traditional guy. Do you see what I mean? [00:42:40] You know, like. So she made him, like, read books on feminism and like, there was so much personality clash [00:42:45] and was like, I don’t think either of.

Payman Langroudi: Them makes for good TV.

Rhona Eskander: But that’s why I’m saying, like, you know, that’s [00:42:50] why I worry about the intentions of these reality TV shows. Like, is the intentions pure [00:42:55] because you have people that I think a lot of them that are going into the experiment truly wanting to find [00:43:00] happiness. And you have a group of experts that really, [00:43:05] you know, are are experts in their name. It says that they have to be super professional [00:43:10] and you’re just doing you can even see Payman not watch the show. And he’s like horrendous. How [00:43:15] could they be matching these people? You know, someone you’re not physically attracted to, someone that [00:43:20] has completely different values to you? Do you know what I mean?

Neelima Patel: Like it’s not. You’ve got to remember like I don’t we still again, [00:43:25] we still don’t know. But we we all have a little bit of a theory that they must have some couples that are [00:43:30] in there obviously for entertainment purposes, like they must know that Sarah and Dean were never going to work. [00:43:35] Do you know what I mean? But then I think they obviously put couples in there that they they do think could work.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:43:40]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Neelima Patel: So people actually were like, I think they put Nelly and Steven in there as a couple that could actually work.

Rhona Eskander: Who worked [00:43:45] in the end?

Neelima Patel: Um, Abby and John.

Rhona Eskander: That’s it. I always knew. I feel I feel.

Neelima Patel: Like. [00:43:50]

Rhona Eskander: I feel like how many couples are there?

Neelima Patel: 11.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, one out of 11, you [00:43:55] know, stayed married.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. They’re moving in together this weekend.

Payman Langroudi: I still [00:44:00] think it’s amazing. It’s amazing.

Neelima Patel: I mean, don’t get me wrong.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an amazing thing that one couple, you know.

Neelima Patel: Like [00:44:05] they’ve made, like, love is blind.

Rhona Eskander: Sometimes you get, like, up to two. But the American.

Neelima Patel: One, one of them’s had a baby.

Rhona Eskander: Really? [00:44:10]

Neelima Patel: Yeah. And then I met Kieran and Meg recently when I went to Sydney. There in Sydney at the same time. So we all met up. [00:44:15]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Neelima Patel: They’re really in love.

Rhona Eskander: Really in love? Yeah. They’ve all. But I feel like. Yeah, that you [00:44:20] could tell that that was really real. Mhm. Um, okay. So my question for you as well is, [00:44:25] is that when you, you said you were in a hellhole and it was done. How. Let’s [00:44:30] talk through that whole incident. When your friend told you that he was on a dating app.

Neelima Patel: My [00:44:35] favourite part?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Go on. I bet you’ve been asked about this a million times.

Neelima Patel: So we’d come for homestays. [00:44:40] Um. And that’s when your partner, you basically go to each other’s homes for like a number of nights, [00:44:45] meet family, etc..

Rhona Eskander: You basically hate him. Be honest.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. My brother is not [00:44:50] a fan. Yeah, you can see his comments on the videos. I get like 3000 likes. Yeah, he’s [00:44:55] so funny. But yeah, my family, look, my family and friends really don’t like my ex-husband. But, um, [00:45:00] yeah, so we go for homestays and then. But Steven decided not to come. I [00:45:05] didn’t really give a reason. And at this point, look, we I think we pretty much knew it wasn’t gonna, wasn’t going to be [00:45:10] working, but also the experiments still going on. And also you talk we spoke about, [00:45:15] you know, how we’ll always remain friends at this point if things don’t happen or whatever, but it’s like just come [00:45:20] to I think the reason I wanted him to come to Manchester was just to prove to be like, could you even do that as a [00:45:25] friend? And the answer is no. So I think I just needed that sort of confirmation. But anyway, he he didn’t [00:45:30] come. He went and met up with his, um, ex-girlfriend that he’d ghosted before the show. [00:45:35] And then he came to Manchester. They filmed, like a conversation [00:45:40] between him and I, just to, I guess, end things. Um. Well, well, [00:45:45] they filmed a conversation between him and I. I think it was more for me to kind [00:45:50] of discuss where I was at, but also, yeah, pretty much to end things. But we were still technically [00:45:55] together at this point. You know, he walked in like, I’ve still got my ring on. I’m a one woman man. And then [00:46:00] my friend at work had been on hinge and had matched him that day.

Neelima Patel: Um, [00:46:05] and so she so we, me and Steven went to film, like at 11:00 in the morning or something. [00:46:10] I think at half ten, I was just getting my hair and makeup done well, doing my hair and makeup. And the producer [00:46:15] rang me, said, we’ve had to push the scene back to four. And in my head I was thinking, oh, is there like an issue with trains or something? I just thought, [00:46:20] whatever. I didn’t think much of it, but it’s because Lucy got. Lucy was one of my emergency contacts, so had the [00:46:25] production numbers. She I didn’t have my phone at this point. I was on home stay, so I don’t have my phone for [00:46:30] the number of weeks that I’m in the experiment. So I still don’t have it. Um, but Lucy rang the producer and [00:46:35] she was like, I have just found Stephen on Hinge. I need to tell Nelly so I know they’re having a conversation, like, [00:46:40] can I ring Nelly? Can I speak to her? And the producer was like, no, you’re going to have to come into the scene. So she had two [00:46:45] veneer patients that day, and she came home straight after that. Like that’s why she had no makeup on. They didn’t even let her [00:46:50] in the apartment to brush her hair like she had a tracksuit, like threadbare socks. We always laugh about it. Yeah. And then [00:46:55] she was like, yeah, I had no makeup on and was finished from work, and I had to then come [00:47:00] for Stephen.

Payman Langroudi: Well, they pulled her into the show there and then.

Neelima Patel: Into the scene. They were like, when you come home, [00:47:05] wow. They literally mic drop outside the apartment. And then I didn’t know she was going to be [00:47:10] in the scene. So I was just chatting to Stephen. I think we’ll probably be talking about how the relationship’s been. And [00:47:15] then she just walks in and I thought at first I thought, oh, she’s here to give him a piece of her mind, because the night [00:47:20] before, we’d filmed a scene where I basically spoke to Lucy about the whole relationship and how he how [00:47:25] he’d been, and I thought, oh, she’s coming here to give him an earful. But I didn’t expect that news. Yeah, [00:47:30] that’s a great entertainment.

Payman Langroudi: On on air. She tells you that this has happened.

Neelima Patel: She was like, I’m [00:47:35] so sorry. She was like, because she said she basically comes from. And she’s like, you know, do you think it’s appropriate [00:47:40] for a married man to be on a dating website? And he’s like, what dating website? And she’s like, and I turned around and I was [00:47:45] like, what? And she was like, I’m really sorry I had to do this. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Denied it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Lol. I mean, his photos [00:47:50] there. He’s like, no, not me.

Neelima Patel: It’s not me. And then Lucy’s like it’s verified.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah [00:47:55] yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Cheater. I literally it was.

Neelima Patel: Like it wasn’t me.

Rhona Eskander: Did he still [00:48:00] continue to deny it after that?

Neelima Patel: Oh yeah. He denied it right up until, you know, the commitment [00:48:05] ceremony. But the reunion commitment ceremony.

Rhona Eskander: I actually didn’t watch it in the end. I think I got back to work at that point. [00:48:10] But tell me what happened.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Um, did you watch a reunion?

Rhona Eskander: No, it’s still on my list.

Neelima Patel: It’s. [00:48:15] That’s my favourite episode.

Rhona Eskander: Okay. Tell me.

Neelima Patel: Um, but the reunion dinner parties where I basically, [00:48:20] like, come from. And then the commitment ceremony. I remember sitting there on the [00:48:25] couch and we were having a break, and I just turned around to him and went. Seeing as you’re being honest and you’re trying to be a new person, [00:48:30] are you going to finally admit to the hinge thing? And he was like, no. And I said, Steven, you don’t understand [00:48:35] what you’re doing. I went, it’s verified. It was like, it’s not just it’s, you know, matching [00:48:40] with your face. So you’re now questioning the integrity of a safety feature on $1 billion app [00:48:45] was like, do you understand what you’re doing and the implications this will have? I mean, there probably [00:48:50] would have been none, but I was like, hinge is going to have to come out and say a statement. Yeah. And he was like, and I was like, [00:48:55] so you should admit it my friend. And then it worked. Yeah, I was bluffing. I was like, you really need to say [00:49:00] something. But I put on my big girl pants. I was like, listen. And then I had Beck next to me going in, like, me [00:49:05] and her were going in like Rottweilers, like you need to say it. I was like, look, stop denying it. It’s embarrassing. And [00:49:10] then finally he said it. And then the producers had picked up on it. So they ran over to us. They’re [00:49:15] like, stop. This conversation needs to stop because obviously they want it on the cameras. And then we were next to be called up on the couch. [00:49:20] So then that’s when I had it out again with him.

Rhona Eskander: And did he ever take any accountability and [00:49:25] apologise to you?

Neelima Patel: He’s said many apologies, [00:49:30] but they’ve not. I mean, I said this at the reunion. I was like, this isn’t genuine. You’re only saying this because the [00:49:35] cameras are here and the you know, everyone’s.

Rhona Eskander: Never contacted you off camera.

Neelima Patel: He contacted me off camera [00:49:40] when his ex-girlfriend came out and did a whole TikTok series about how she was dating him, and then he ghosted her on the wedding [00:49:45] day and met up with her and.

Rhona Eskander: Never told her that she was going. He was going on the show?

Neelima Patel: No, he messaged her on [00:49:50] the wedding morning saying, um, I’ll speak to you later. I’m off at work now. And then he had a like, [00:49:55] we all got burner phones, but but he contacted her throughout the show when things [00:50:00] weren’t going well between us. And she’s posted all this proof on TikTok.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Wow. That’s crazy.

Payman Langroudi: He goes [00:50:05] to on the wedding day just before coming on the show.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, like on the wedding morning.

Rhona Eskander: So you [00:50:10] say to me when she says it’s rough out there, she means it’s rough out there.

Neelima Patel: I’m like, who’s got the. I was [00:50:15] like, could you be bothered? I couldn’t keep up with the lying. I’d be. I wouldn’t be able to remember.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So [00:50:20] my question is as well, did you find the experience overall traumatic [00:50:25] or extremely enlightening?

Neelima Patel: I think both I think both [00:50:30] can, I guess, co-exist. You know what I actually had like the trauma from it is. Yeah, it was [00:50:35] it was pretty bad the way I was treated. And I think it.

Rhona Eskander: Was your self-confidence. Really low, extremely low. [00:50:40]

Neelima Patel: But then I had the girls that I kept picking me up, but I did. My confidence was at an all time low. Um, [00:50:45] but then in the same breath, I’ve had so much [00:50:50] growth. Like, my confidence has now never been as as high as it is. Is that the right word? Has [00:50:55] never been as. Yeah. I’ve never been as confident in my life.

Rhona Eskander: So you feel like it gave you a real opportunity [00:51:00] to reflect on what you want from men who you want to pick as a partner, things like that.

Neelima Patel: Yeah, [00:51:05] like I look at men differently now. Like before, I would think I want these things. And now I look at a man and I think, [00:51:10] well, would he be kind? Yeah. Would he be kind? Would he be honest? Would he make would he give me [00:51:15] space to be emotionally vulnerable? And you know, these are things I didn’t really know.

Rhona Eskander: But we don’t. And [00:51:20] I think, I think.

Neelima Patel: This.

Rhona Eskander: Is the problem. Like what I get really upset about when I and this is before [00:51:25] I did the work as well. When you ask someone who they would like describe as their ideal person, [00:51:30] they never list characteristics that matter. Honest kindness, [00:51:35] ambition, no, they’ll list all the superficial things.

Neelima Patel: Those are my. That’s what [00:51:40] I talk about.

Rhona Eskander: They’ll say someone’s got money. Someone that, like, has got a certain aesthetic [00:51:45] build whatever, whatever, whatever.

Neelima Patel: Likes to work out, keep fit.

Rhona Eskander: Plays tennis. Like whatever [00:51:50] floats your boat. But you’ll never hear them say things like kindness cares about their family, [00:51:55] like integrity, like all of this stuff. And yeah, it happens all the time. And I [00:52:00] talk to my friend who’s a psychotherapist, and I feel like until you’ve done the work on yourself and gone [00:52:05] to therapy, you recognise and this is what I say to you, you know, when the going gets tough, [00:52:10] like I had in my own experience, all the superficial shit goes out the window. [00:52:15] Like you said, you get cancer, you end up in a wheelchair. Your baby is not well. Whatever. Whatever. Those [00:52:20] are the things you want people to really be there for you, you know, not the people. And at the end of [00:52:25] the day, even as a woman in dentistry, at any point our careers could start going down as well. [00:52:30] Do you know what I mean? It’s that person to pick you up and hold you when they can. So I do think [00:52:35] I think it’s it’s tough times out there. And I think it’s really important. Like, [00:52:40] don’t get me wrong, I think men need to fix up and we’re not going to blame women on the men loneliness [00:52:45] pandemic because I think people have been talking about that quite a lot, saying it’s loneliness. Yeah. So ultimately [00:52:50] it’s become a big thing where ultimately a lot of men, particularly the ones that subscribe [00:52:55] to the Andrew Tate ideology and read Red pill, you know, like Red pill, they’re [00:53:00] basically saying that women are to blame for the men loneliness pandemic. And that’s because [00:53:05] women are demanding too much of what they want from men. But women aren’t to be blamed [00:53:10] because in a way, women are also saying, hang on a second, you’ve told us [00:53:15] for decades that we need to do X, Y, and Z like us. As women have elevated, we fixed up. You [00:53:20] should fix up if you want us to be. If you want us to choose. There’s a guy called, um, Scott [00:53:25] Galloway. You know him? I’m sure. Right.

Payman Langroudi: Prof.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Prof. Galloway. And they.

Payman Langroudi: Before you go. What is the men? [00:53:30] Loneliness. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: So basically, because so many men aren’t in relationships, can’t have a relationship. [00:53:35]

Neelima Patel: Choosing to be single.

Rhona Eskander: Women are choosing to be single. And they’re like, they should be choosing [00:53:40] to be in relationships. And they’re like, sorry if you’re not going to add value to my life. And also there was a newspaper [00:53:45] article or a Vogue magazine article, and the Vogue magazine article said it’s officially [00:53:50] embarrassing to have a boyfriend. Yeah. And the premise? And everyone went mad for it. So it’s really [00:53:55] polarising with men and women. And basically the article was stating that even [00:54:00] if you have a partner, you don’t show your partner online because in some way it’s [00:54:05] frowned upon to be like, hey, I’m in a relationship, or hey, I’ve got a man. It’s a bit cringe, like people know that. [00:54:10] And also some people feel that they’re never even sure if the relationship’s going to last, so they don’t post [00:54:15] them online. There’s all these different things that ultimately women are kind of like, you know what? I’m so proud of my friends in my [00:54:20] life. That’s what I show. I don’t really show men, you know? And whilst I [00:54:25] understand it, I don’t think we’re moving anywhere closer to people finding ultimate happiness. [00:54:30] I do think women, women can be happier single because that’s the premise of it. [00:54:35] But I don’t think we’re moving towards. And I do think when you look at it, which again, a [00:54:40] lot of people don’t question. And again, Prof. Galloway talks about this. Most women, [00:54:45] based on their superficial criteria job height, build, blah, blah, blah, [00:54:50] will actually end up choosing the 2% of men on the [00:54:55] dating app. They’ll get rid of the 98%, and within that 98%, you might have [00:55:00] a guy that’s super good looking, but he’s not over six foot. You might have the guy that is like really [00:55:05] kind, has a good job, but like, I don’t know, doesn’t go to the gym whatever. Yeah. [00:55:10] And he’s saying that the fact is, is that then you’ve got 98% of women fighting [00:55:15] for that 2%, and that 2% of guy might not even be the right kind of guy for you. And [00:55:20] I get that argument. I have to say, I do get that argument.

Payman Langroudi: But listen, you choose to be single, [00:55:25] then it’s not surprising that you can’t find a husband.

Neelima Patel: It’s [00:55:30] the men that are complaining.

Rhona Eskander: It’s the men complaining.

Neelima Patel: Listen, women. I’m very happy. Single. I’ve never been happier. And I [00:55:35] always say now. Like I would never, ever be with somebody that disrupts the peace that I bring myself because I’m having a [00:55:40] really good time.

Rhona Eskander: Have you been single since? Yeah, completely. Have you started dating again or not?

Neelima Patel: Not at all.

Rhona Eskander: You [00:55:45] just felt like you needed to process and focus on.

Neelima Patel: You know what? Not even that. I was [00:55:50] coming out of it. I was like, yeah, I have been in that sort of focus on me mood, but I just. I have no interest. [00:55:55] Yeah, just not currently. I don’t know, I just don’t have an interest. Although during winter I [00:56:00] was like, oh, I guess it would be nice to have a cuddle. But then I got over that within five minutes I was like, whatever, I’m over it.

Rhona Eskander: And do [00:56:05] you feel so now you have a very clear understanding of [00:56:10] where you want to be, right? Yeah. And you have a clear understanding of the kind of guy you want to be with. And I guess you’re [00:56:15] like, I’m not going to compromise on any of that.

Neelima Patel: Yeah. Like, I’ve been in awful relationships. I’ve been where, [00:56:20] you know, I’ve been with people that have made me really sad, and I never want to be in that position again. Um, [00:56:25] so I’m very much like, I love the life I’ve built. I love how I live my life. I’m very happy [00:56:30] at the moment. If someone can fit into that, great. But like and I do. I’m not saying, you know, someone is. [00:56:35] Someone ruins my peace. It’s over. Like, I completely appreciate. It’s normal. Relationships need [00:56:40] work. You know, it’s not going to always be plain sailing. But if there is a pattern of it’s more bad than [00:56:45] good, like, I just. I don’t want it.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, you have to be careful with the words. Yeah, because compromise [00:56:50] is the whole of marriage is compromise. Yeah. Um. And I’m so happy. I guess you’re saying [00:56:55] you don’t want a toxic. You don’t want compromise on that?

Neelima Patel: Well, I lost myself in that relationship.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve been there. He really reminded [00:57:00] me of my ex-boyfriend, where I really lost myself. And I was so enamoured with him for all [00:57:05] the superficial reasons. Enamoured, and in the end he was a gaslighter, a narcissist. Pulled [00:57:10] the floor. And then because they do that, like as you said, like after the honeymoon. For me it was three months. I was like, [00:57:15] but what have I done? Because I don’t understand what’s changed. Like just overnight, you know, because then you start questioning yourself and [00:57:20] you do everything wasn’t going to the places that I used to love going, didn’t speak to my friends, was not living [00:57:25] the life I wanted to live, and it’s just not worth it in the end, you know, especially if you have a life that’s rich and full. [00:57:30]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. You know, you told me before you got here, we were we were talking and Nelly was saying, she [00:57:35] gets recognised in the street. Yeah. And you know how I feel about that. I [00:57:40] find that very vulnerable. I don’t want to be recognised. I don’t want to be. I don’t [00:57:45] want people to know where I’m going. I just feel that’s weird. Yeah, but you always told [00:57:50] me you like it when that happens. But I’m quite interested in the question of now that everyone [00:57:55] knows exactly what you’re like. Does that make you feel vulnerable?

Neelima Patel: No.

Payman Langroudi: Because is [00:58:00] it empowering?

Neelima Patel: Yeah, it’s empowering because I back myself. I’m really happy with who I am. So I’m like, I’m. Yeah, [00:58:05] it honestly, it doesn’t really bother me. Take it or leave it.

Rhona Eskander: All right. Question though for [00:58:10] you. So obviously you’ve gone back to being a full time dentist. Has this made you feel like you’d rather go into [00:58:15] a different career path being on TV or you’re like, no, I’m happy being a dentist. I was in the experiment. [00:58:20] Cool.

Neelima Patel: I would love for a way to intertwine them both, but I don’t know [00:58:25] how that could work.

Rhona Eskander: You can do that. I’ve been doing it.

Neelima Patel: I know, that’s what I mean. I would love to do that. Like, I actually [00:58:30] really enjoy. Yes, it was traumatic at some times, but I actually really enjoyed the TV side of stuff. [00:58:35] Like I find it really interesting. I, I love, you know, talk. I don’t know, [00:58:40] I would love to be able to find a way to do both.

Rhona Eskander: I think you will. I think you will.

Neelima Patel: If I could, yeah, that would be my ideal. [00:58:45] Like if I could do dentistry and or just even do how I did, like blocks, blocks of dentistry and blocks [00:58:50] of this kind of stuff. I would love that. Or, you know, I would love a way to intertwine [00:58:55] them both, but I would never I would work so hard to be a dentist. Obviously, you know how hard it is. I would never get rid of that. [00:59:00]

Rhona Eskander: I find it interesting because I think there’s been a real wave and social media now where [00:59:05] so many doctors, not necessarily dentists, but so many doctors, are literally leaving [00:59:10] being a doctor to become a full time content creator. And I don’t judge it at all. [00:59:15] But I’m like it is. I find it hard to resonate with because I’m like, you studied 6 [00:59:20] or 7 years to become a doctor and whilst we know the NHS is broken [00:59:25] and whilst we know that it’s completely burns them out, it is interesting [00:59:30] to see this transition of these doctors being like, do you know what? I’m not actually going to practice medicine. I’m going to talk to you about [00:59:35] skincare products instead, you know, and they can make a more lucrative career about it. Yeah, but as Nelly was saying. [00:59:40]

Neelima Patel: It’s hard to make that good money from.

Rhona Eskander: It. But as Nelly was just saying, like, I honestly, you’re gonna [00:59:45] think I’m really weird for saying this. I honestly feel so happy when I’m doing [00:59:50] dentistry. I’m going to tell you that.

Payman Langroudi: Why not? Why not?

Rhona Eskander: I could not imagine doing [00:59:55] anything else but dentistry. And actually, when I’m treating the patient like, forget the complaints, [01:00:00] forget the patient management. Forget like running a practice when I’m actually in there [01:00:05] physically doing the dentistry, I feel like it’s actually my time off in my head because [01:00:10] I’m actually so focussed on what I’m doing. It’s almost like being in an art studio or being a painter, by [01:00:15] the way. That’s when I switch off.

Payman Langroudi: It’s so important for people to have a career for that reason, [01:00:20] right? You know.

Rhona Eskander: What do you mean.

Payman Langroudi: Master your art, right?

Rhona Eskander: And because you didn’t enjoy it, you [01:00:25] told me you enjoyed.

Payman Langroudi: I used to enjoy it, I enjoy it, but.

Rhona Eskander: But why did you leave?

Payman Langroudi: You know, the [01:00:30] opportunities changed. But my point is this. Your friend in Dubai, who doesn’t [01:00:35] have a career and is sitting at home looking after the kids, is [01:00:40] missing a really important cornerstone of life. It’s not only, of course, I [01:00:45] understand what you’re saying about worst case scenario. She can feed her children or whatever. Yeah, by [01:00:50] having a career. Yeah, of course you understand that. But it’s much more than that. [01:00:55] Yeah. Having a career is an important part of being someone. And then when you become [01:01:00] a mother, I’ve noticed my wife used to say going to work was a break. Going [01:01:05] to break from the children, you know, which is which is something that doesn’t get talked about enough either. [01:01:10] You know, that, you know, as a as a guy, you haven’t got the constant kid pressure, [01:01:15] but as a mother, you do. And so you need an identity apart from mother, [01:01:20] you know. And so your identity as principal, business owner, you [01:01:25] know, dentist, social media star, podcaster, these [01:01:30] identities feed you, right?

Rhona Eskander: No, I think listen, I think your job gives you a lot of self [01:01:35] confidence. And I said that to my husband, like, when I got back to work, I was like, dentistry gives [01:01:40] me so much confidence because. And I’m sure you get the same, especially when you do the kind of work we’re doing where you’re [01:01:45] actually changing people’s smiles. And listen, we’ve discussed this at length. This is why we started Mind [01:01:50] Movers. It has one of the highest suicide rates of any profession dentistry. And you know, [01:01:55] the litigation, the governing body is like, come on, we live with that sort of thunderstorm on [01:02:00] our heads every single day. And it’s really sad that they’ve created that [01:02:05] system for us because honestly, I feel like people would enjoy dentistry much more if [01:02:10] we felt like we had people on our side, you know what I mean? Protecting us. Or if we felt like we could be protected as depression. [01:02:15]

Neelima Patel: It’s scary.

Payman Langroudi: You talk to your patients, okay? The ones who do well, none of them have [01:02:20] an easy life. So, you know, this is dentistry’s problems come around with this [01:02:25] litigation issue. Yeah, but, you know, you’ve got patients doing really well. You’ve got [01:02:30] patients doing really well. Who’s got an easy life, man? No one’s got an easy life who’s doing something worthwhile. [01:02:35] Life is hard, you know, like, I know.

Rhona Eskander: I know, like I’ve [01:02:40] spent three hours crying this morning, so, like, you know, life [01:02:45] is tough.

Payman Langroudi: What I’m saying is it depends on how you frame it. Yeah, if you like. I’ve got all the [01:02:50] people. Kids at school. They’re parents of my kids friends. They’re all [01:02:55] banker types here. Listen. Like your husband. You could frame that as he sits in a chair and pushes a [01:03:00] button. Yeah, you could say that’s what it is. Yeah, but when pushing that button could mean, like, make or [01:03:05] break your career, you know, that decision and and playing around with other people’s [01:03:10] millions and, you know, like a couple of bad years and you’re out and you know that that [01:03:15] it’s much more pressurised than, oh, this patient might give me a complaint. Yeah. But [01:03:20] in our world, we.

Rhona Eskander: Think I think it’s different. Nelly will agree with me because I know she agrees, like it’s the thought that a patient [01:03:25] has the control to ruin your entire career that you’ve worked eight years for. And our our skill isn’t [01:03:30] necessarily transferable. It’s not like I could suddenly be like, you know what? I’m gonna be a finance girl now. Do you know what I mean? [01:03:35] Like, you train to be a dentist so specialised. And the fact that one patient can [01:03:40] have their, like, whole, like, threaten your entire career, it’s something that’s always been on the heads of all of us, [01:03:45] you know. And that’s the problem.

Payman Langroudi: The particular issue with dentistry, right? Yeah. If you’re a corporate [01:03:50] lawyer. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve got my my lawyer. My [01:03:55] parents lawyer is so not scared of anything. Like he was like, yeah, my old job had taken me to like, [01:04:00] the legal board because I feel like also lawyers know how to argue like they know their argument, so they’re in a different [01:04:05] sort of thing. Nelly. So tell me as well. I’m so happy to hear you’ve been on this, like, journey of [01:04:10] self-love and you’ve been, you know, really at peace with the [01:04:15] situation that happened on MAFs. Would you do anything differently if you had a chance?

Neelima Patel: I [01:04:20] would stand up for myself more, and [01:04:25] I wouldn’t because I think, yeah, [01:04:30] I would stand up for myself more and I’d probably leave a little bit earlier than I did. Yeah, [01:04:35] yeah, I think so. I think I think, you know. Yeah, it’s [01:04:40] hard. I think there’s a lot the thing is, part of me want to say, no, I wouldn’t do anything differently because then would I have had that [01:04:45] growth. Do you know what I mean? Um. Yeah, [01:04:50] I think just stand up for myself [01:04:55] a little bit more and actually believe in myself more. I think what was really hard when watching it back was comparing [01:05:00] myself directly to Julia Ruth, and I think about it now as if you even said that out loud. [01:05:05] As if as if you even thought it, but as if you even. I think that’s when you could tell [01:05:10] my confidence was at an all time low, because it’s so wild that I think, how are you comfortable saying that out [01:05:15] loud to people? Um, but yeah, I think directly comparing myself and thinking that I’ll never be as [01:05:20] good as she is and and I could never compete with her, so why bother? I think I would, I [01:05:25] would never I was sad watching that that I thought that about myself.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. And I’m just gonna tell you that that’s [01:05:30] absolutely not true at all. And, you know, we have to as women, stop [01:05:35] thinking that we’ve got, like, little self-worth. I have you have. You should see the conversations I have in my head. I’m tired, [01:05:40] I haven’t slept, the conversations I’ve had in my head, like putting myself down. Yeah, but you’re amazing. You really, really are. [01:05:45] And as I said, like, what you’ve done is incredible. I always admire people that have put themselves [01:05:50] out there. And, you know, I think that you’re an incredibly inspirational dentist to so many [01:05:55] people and showing that you can go out there, you can fulfil your dreams, you can be in [01:06:00] media and the spotlight and also you can reflect. And you have been able to change the narrative [01:06:05] about what has been said about you. So yeah, and I’m really grateful. And I was really [01:06:10] excited about doing this podcast. I can’t see what’s to come because I think it’s just the only the only just [01:06:15] just the beginning for you.

Neelima Patel: Thank you so much.

Payman Langroudi: Honestly, I think, you know, you were always one [01:06:20] of the coolest chicks in dentistry anyway. For sure.

Rhona Eskander: For sure. Did you know her? Pre-math. [01:06:25]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Of course.

Rhona Eskander: Oh, really?

Neelima Patel: Manny? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because, you know, Kayla and all that. [01:06:30] But, um, you were always one of the coolest. And then you and the reason you were cool was because you were authentic. [01:06:35]

Neelima Patel: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then you go on that show and you’re authentic again, so. Well done.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Amazing. [01:06:40] Nellie, I can’t wait to see what’s to come. Okay. Thank you so.

Payman Langroudi: Much.

Rhona Eskander: Thanks for coming.

Neelima Patel: Thank you so [01:06:45] much for having me.