Rhona Eskander: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Mind Movers [00:00:05] where we take the talk from dentistry to mental health to business. And I feel like we’ve had a real pivot in [00:00:10] the last couple of months since I’ve been back, where we’re really also moving the conversations towards [00:00:15] business as well, which I think is actually really tied into mental health. I’m so excited today that we [00:00:20] have Doctor Vinita, who’s also known as doctor V, she is an Instagram friend, and I’ve [00:00:25] been following her for a long time because she is a powerhouse. She owns a skincare brand which is specifically [00:00:30] targeted to women of colour. And for me, this really resonated because being somebody [00:00:35] that’s Middle Eastern, that’s had always struggled with my own skincare growing up, and doctor V has [00:00:40] taken this on like a champion. She has basically confronted issues which have been [00:00:45] stigmatised or taboo to have those conversations and said, hey, we need different skincare for different reasons. [00:00:50] So I’m really proud to have doctor V on the show. Welcome.

Vanita Rattan: Thank you. I’m excited. [00:00:55] Thank you.

Rhona Eskander: So doctor V, I obviously saw you because your social following [00:01:00] is so engaged. But what I want to do is I want to start from the beginning, you know. [00:01:05] Can you take us back to the very beginning? I know that you’re a doctor. I want to know where you qualified [00:01:10] and how the skin care journey started.

Vanita Rattan: So I have a really unique story. [00:01:15] So I did medicine at UCL. It literally was my dream since I was 13 years old and my cousin [00:01:20] had gotten in, and that’s what I wanted to do. And after medical school, [00:01:25] my parents had a company which was a cosmetics company, and I was fascinated [00:01:30] with how ingredients work together. And I realised that actually no one was [00:01:35] creating products for skin of colour. And so I went into the lab after medical [00:01:40] school. So after I qualified, I became a doctor. I went into the lab and I did 18 months as an apprentice, [00:01:45] and I then became a cosmetic formulator. And at this time, this is not a normal journey, right? [00:01:50] Doctors don’t leave the NHS and go and learn how to make creams. Yeah, [00:01:55] of course it goes against the whole Indian mentality. Yes, but I [00:02:00] felt like no one was doing it and there was this huge unmet need.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And [00:02:05] so we actually created something called the hyperpigmentation Clinic. So I had a chain of eight clinics around [00:02:10] the world. We created the world’s first professional grade treatment for pigmentation for skin of colour. We [00:02:15] ran that for eight years until Covid hit. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Slow down, slow [00:02:20] down. Yeah.

[BOTH]: That’s so impressive.

Payman Langroudi: To get to eight clinics owned by you [00:02:25] around the world.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How did you negotiate that? I mean, you’re a doctor at the end [00:02:30] of the day. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: So it was quite good. So my parents are also in business and so but [00:02:35] not doctors. So my dad’s a doctor. My mom’s a pharmacist. They had their own cosmetics company. So that’s [00:02:40] how I learned was from their cosmetic formulator. And so they already had connections around the world. And so when. [00:02:45]

Rhona Eskander: I have a question for you, did they also what was their perception of practising [00:02:50] medicine versus using medicine as a tool to do business? Right. Because that’s different, [00:02:55] right.

Vanita Rattan: It is different. And actually, I think they’re very entrepreneurial. I think my parents are very entrepreneurial. [00:03:00] I think generally everybody I know is like my whole family, extended family, we [00:03:05] all tend to have a profession and we all have a business as well. Okay. This is like very normal. So [00:03:10] for me to do business with my medical knowledge was just [00:03:15] like water. It’s like second nature for me. And they already had the connections. So because we were already [00:03:20] we’re already on Harley Street. We were in Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow. Then the next step was we’re [00:03:25] outside of the country. Should we go to. So we did South Africa, we’re in Mauritius, we did India. [00:03:30]

Payman Langroudi: All at the same time.

Vanita Rattan: One after the other. So. And Pakistan. So we literally it was like [00:03:35] six.

[BOTH]: Months apart, six.

Vanita Rattan: Months apart.

[BOTH]: Totally.

Payman Langroudi: Believable.

Vanita Rattan: It was really hard. Honestly, managing businesses [00:03:40] abroad.

Payman Langroudi: Funded that the sales fund that.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. So the company here, my business here was funding [00:03:45] the expansion. So it was very organic. I’ve never borrowed money. I’ve always bootstrapped. [00:03:50] Even to this day we’re bootstrapped. I feel like you’re more frugal and [00:03:55] you’re more intentional with every pound. More cost benefit analysis when it’s your money.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, [00:04:00] so with the first skincare clinic, what was the sort of premise? So were you [00:04:05] the treating practitioner? Did you have a team of therapists? How did it work?

Vanita Rattan: It started off with just me [00:04:10] and I was doing the consultations and the treatments. Okay. Then as we got bigger, we [00:04:15] then hired a team of practitioners. And so, you know, we had a team around [00:04:20] the country. Um, and then again abroad, I would train and then they would practice. [00:04:25] Now this ran for eight years and it was an amazing.

[BOTH]: What was it called. [00:04:30]

Vanita Rattan: The hyperpigmentation clinic. So it was this wonderful clinic. We had amazing [00:04:35] results. And then Covid hit and we didn’t know [00:04:40] what to do. We were haemorrhaging money because of we couldn’t do furlough. All our practitioners [00:04:45] were self-employed.

[BOTH]: Yeah, yeah.

Vanita Rattan: So we were just losing money everywhere. And I was trying [00:04:50] to pay practitioners even though nobody was working. Because what’s everyone supposed to do? And [00:04:55] we had to make a really difficult decision, which was cut this incredible business that [00:05:00] we have, keep the laboratory and then figure out in my late 30s, [00:05:05] can I learn how to navigate social media?

Rhona Eskander: So at this point, the clinics [00:05:10] had been built just through word of mouth, word of mouth and traditional marketing.

Vanita Rattan: No traditional marketing. [00:05:15] Oh yeah. Sorry. Traditional marketing. So like Google ads.

Rhona Eskander: And SEO and things like that.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. And starting [00:05:20] of YouTube, sorry, starting of Instagram, like very like, like [00:05:25] trying, but not really understanding it properly. Then during Covid, I literally purchased [00:05:30] all the dummies guides to all the different Instagram and YouTube and every single book for [00:05:35] YouTube. I literally studied it like a degree. So I studied social media like a degree. And [00:05:40] in those two years, I decided, right, we’re going to figure out how [00:05:45] to become an influencer, figure out, can I build enough of a following? Are enough people interested in [00:05:50] skin of colour that I can use my lab to formulate for them. And is [00:05:55] this enough to have a life? Like to build a life. To build a business. And [00:06:00] these are all lots of ifs, right? Because don’t forget, I grew up at a time without even Facebook. I was [00:06:05] at university without Facebook. So we weren’t really part of this world. [00:06:10] And it just so happened that everybody was at home. Everyone was excited about skincare, and [00:06:15] people were watching YouTube videos. So we started to grow. And as I grew, I [00:06:20] would ask my following, hey guys, what would you like me to make next? I would take them into the lab with me. I’d film, [00:06:25] we’d literally literally say, do you want this ingredient? You want this ingredient, you want this colour packaging. Literally built it [00:06:30] with my people. That’s why it’s this community is so strong. It’s in the DNA [00:06:35] of this business. They’ve been there from day one, like the whole [00:06:40] way, answering questions and building this thing with me. So this is also why I feel like it couldn’t have failed [00:06:45] because it feels me on my own. Yes, it could have failed. High possibility of it failing, [00:06:50] but we were doing it together. How do you fail when you have thousands of people guiding you? [00:06:55]

Payman Langroudi: They kind of call that building public, right? Yeah. And Glossier was a bit [00:07:00] like that. Yeah. Started off as a blog.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: But what you’re saying there is [00:07:05] really super important that it’s not something you can measure. Yeah. That, that, that sort of [00:07:10] fandom, that sort of the way purpose almost behind it, that love.

Rhona Eskander: I do think [00:07:15] there’s something to be said. What I think is very important is that you distinguish [00:07:20] the difference between a following and a community, because people can have a following, [00:07:25] but if the following is not engaged and don’t feel like they’re going to die hard by the founder. [00:07:30] People actually don’t sell. And we’ve seen this with influencers, online influencers [00:07:35] that have 1 or 2 million followers. They bring out their own product and the product [00:07:40] flops. And I do believe that is representative of the community. They’ve [00:07:45] built the community almost saying, I kind of trust you, but not [00:07:50] enough to buy what you’re actually selling. And I think that that’s important. [00:07:55] So the thing is, is that you built a community, not a following. And I think that’s [00:08:00] where the key distinction lies.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. I agree with you, I completely agree. I call that [00:08:05] my people, my skin colour family. We’re a tribe. It’s not I don’t even like the word following [00:08:10] because what does that even mean? Like I’m serving them and I’m following them. So that’s [00:08:15] how I feel. And even like when I sign off my letters, always love Doctor Vee. Every Instagram, [00:08:20] I know it’s not professional, but that’s how I feel. I have so much love for what we’re doing.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:08:25] you did you launch this in 2020, then the skincare brand 2021. [00:08:30]

Vanita Rattan: So like 2020, we were just finding our feet. I think I launched our first product, which [00:08:35] is such a crazy product, what we launched with, right? It was called the lip hyperpigmentation kit. Yeah. [00:08:40] This is a £100 kit for lip hyperpigmentation in skin [00:08:45] of colour. You could not be more niche. Yeah, it’s not a pigmentation serum. [00:08:50] It’s for one specific part of the face. And it’s so expensive. And [00:08:55] that sold out. Wow. And when that sold out, which we had to buy in the thousands.

Rhona Eskander: Proof of [00:09:00] concept.

Vanita Rattan: Yes I realised hold on. What about everything else? Yeah. [00:09:05] What about head to toe? Cradle to grave? Everything? Yeah. What about all the things that we need? [00:09:10] Forget lip pigmentation.

Payman Langroudi: I love the way you think.

Vanita Rattan: You know that’s the NHS slogan. Yeah. [00:09:15]

Rhona Eskander: So at this point, did you go to your parents as mentors for all of this? The [00:09:20] whole time?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, the whole time. They’ve they’ve always been very good guides. Um, and they’ve been in this [00:09:25] world, they’ve been in this industry, uh, although they don’t understand social media as much. [00:09:30] So we’ve always had like that sort of tension, like I’m explaining and, you know, my dad, [00:09:35] for example, was like, keep it very medical, you know, come from the science come from.

Rhona Eskander: They get it.

Vanita Rattan: Wrong. No, [00:09:40] he’s right. He’s so right. But how is how do you deliver [00:09:45] the medicine in a way that is understandable? Auntie is going to understand, you know. Or a [00:09:50] child’s gonna.

Rhona Eskander: Jump on the trends because I think what we do is very similar. It’s like the dentists and stuff that [00:09:55] are obsessed with like, no, I’m going to be very clinical. And the problem is, is that the social media is built [00:10:00] around relatability. It’s not built on like how beautiful. And the thing is, is that you’ll see a [00:10:05] much more talented dentist or doctor and they get so irate seeing like general [00:10:10] dentists or doctors do better. And I’m like, listen, the point is, is that people buy the the thing [00:10:15] they buy the people. Do you see what I mean? They’re not buying the product or the service. They’re actually buying [00:10:20] people. Yeah. And I think that they find it really hard to resonate with. Did you go through a grieving period, [00:10:25] though, with your clinics?

Vanita Rattan: We didn’t have time. I was, I was I was in [00:10:30] fight or flight, like a lot of us were during Covid. I had two children in private school. I had a [00:10:35] house to pay for. Like we, I, there was no time. It was just, [00:10:40] you know, you become very matter of fact in a crisis. And I don’t know about other people, but I do. I [00:10:45] go straight into right, cut this. Move on. We have to do this right. I was making five YouTube videos [00:10:50] a week.

Rhona Eskander: Wow.

Vanita Rattan: I was producing hundreds of pieces of content a week and [00:10:55] bombing on at least 70% of them weren’t working. And for about a [00:11:00] year and a half, I would say it wasn’t really very good content. Like I could have. Like now I look back, I like, [00:11:05] I sometimes cringe at some of the stuff that I’ve done. Um, and then and [00:11:10] you have to go through the cringe like mountain to.

Payman Langroudi: Get really interesting to me is the pivot. [00:11:15]

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Because you would have, you would have thought that getting to eight clinics in such a short period [00:11:20] of time is a successful endeavour. Yeah. And then Covid comes [00:11:25] along and instead of you just rebuilding and doing that again, you completely pivoted to [00:11:30] this whole social media thing. And that’s a superpower, right? That we didn’t have a choice.

Vanita Rattan: I think [00:11:35] I would love to think that that was me, but it just actually didn’t have a choice because we didn’t know how long [00:11:40] this thing was going to go on for.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And we. So we couldn’t rebuild. Like we had to do something now. And [00:11:45] I had a certain amount of savings. Either I go through my savings, draw it down to nothing [00:11:50] and pray that, you know, there’ll be a time that we can come back or like [00:11:55] you just have faith in yourself and you. One thing I will say about myself is I feel like I can [00:12:00] achieve anything. There’s nothing I can’t do.

Rhona Eskander: I love that.

Vanita Rattan: I do feel like I’ve got this, like.

Payman Langroudi: Overextending [00:12:05] that it destroyed the business so quickly.

Vanita Rattan: Uh, meaning that I should have [00:12:10] waited longer or would.

Payman Langroudi: You know, you know, you were you were reinvesting too quickly.

Vanita Rattan: It [00:12:15] was very we went through as much pain as I think we could have taken as much uncertainty. [00:12:20] You know, what I don’t like is when I don’t have control over what’s happening. [00:12:25] If I’m reliant, for example, on the government or Covid or other people, external [00:12:30] factors, that’s what gives me the most anxiety. If I feel like, right, I’ve made the decision that I’m now [00:12:35] stopping this thing and I’m going to do this thing that is in my power, I feel like I can do anything. [00:12:40]

Rhona Eskander: I think there’s something to be said, you know, like, and I guess this is probably a question for [00:12:45] both of you. When is too long, too long? And what I mean by that is, you know, I had [00:12:50] a conversation with a really good friend of mine and she does something in the media industry and [00:12:55] she goes, I want to pack it in. I’ve been doing it for ten years. And same, I have a friend who had a very successful [00:13:00] jewellery company. And in the last two years she’s making net loss. [00:13:05] And the reason is because gold has gone up and all of these external factors. And she goes, I’ve [00:13:10] spent ten years building this brand. And she goes, I’m kind of tired. And she goes, and [00:13:15] I can’t anymore. I can’t do it. And I just don’t know. Like, when do you think is the right [00:13:20] time? Because even with enlightened or even the doctor, the skincare brand, where obviously you’re [00:13:25] never going to be in a position of a business, some people are, and they’re really lucky where you’re in a constant like growth [00:13:30] spurt. And then I think there is a real skill for people.

Payman Langroudi: Even even those businesses [00:13:35] are.

Rhona Eskander: They sell quickly.

Payman Langroudi: They’re trying, they’re trying 30, 40 things before 3 or 4 things actually [00:13:40] make it. But I’m sure you’ve done. Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: But what how do you think? What do you think? Do you think there is a thing as [00:13:45] too long, 30 years, 40 years?

Payman Langroudi: No, no. But even even within the product. Yeah. Sometimes you put a lot of [00:13:50] emotional effort into a product and then you’ve been up a few cul de sacs. [00:13:55] Yeah. And eventually you’ve worked it out. Now, now it’s not selling as well as it could. [00:14:00] And sometimes you put emotion into the journey it took to get to that product. And some, some, you know, accountant [00:14:05] might say, just cut that product. My partner. Yeah. He’s so happy to [00:14:10] kill kill products. But I’ve been through so much pain to get to the but, you know, it’s one of those [00:14:15] things.

Rhona Eskander: But do you think there is a year time period or do you think it’s just dependent.

Payman Langroudi: On the situation? But some people [00:14:20] are better at it than others. And the weird thing is you’ve got the other side where sticking [00:14:25] at stuff is one of the cornerstones of success. You know, like being [00:14:30] around.

Rhona Eskander: Especially in the impatient currents, like impatient climate that we’re living in. What about you, doctor? I [00:14:35] think your opportunity.

Vanita Rattan: There’s an opportunity cost and that’s what people sometimes miss.

Rhona Eskander: Go [00:14:40] for.

Vanita Rattan: It. So for example, say you’re in a job that you hate, but [00:14:45] all you can see is this job and all you know is how much time it’s taken you [00:14:50] to, to understand this job and get the job and what you might not be [00:14:55] seeing. And the lens you might not be looking at is what else you could have done with your talent in [00:15:00] that period of time. And sometimes we get scared and sometimes we have sunk cost mentality [00:15:05] where you’ve invested all of this time into something and now you can’t [00:15:10] let go. Yeah. And actually, I’m really a little bit unemotional in that respect. [00:15:15] Um, I’m very emotional in many respects, but in this respect, when it comes to opportunity cost, I feel like [00:15:20] you only have a certain number of years productive years before old age and Alzheimer’s [00:15:25] kicks in. Have I, in that very limited time, which is my only [00:15:30] limiting resource, have I maximised it? Am I wasting my time on anything [00:15:35] that is not going to bring me joy and not make me feel proud. And so when it even [00:15:40] came to the clinics, it was I could have carried on. And prior to that, I’ve had [00:15:45] other businesses. So Ace Medicine, for example, was my first ever company. It was a medical education company. We [00:15:50] trained 10,000 students to get into medical school. We had [00:15:55] it was, I.

Rhona Eskander: Feel like I’ve heard of it.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, it was my first. You probably did. It was like we were it was really big. It [00:16:00] was for dentistry as well. So we did medicine and dentistry. I did hear of it. Um, so that was my first [00:16:05] company. And we shut that when it was highly profitable. Again, like the hypertension clinic, we shut it when it was [00:16:10] highly profitable because opportunity cost. So we were, we were at that point of [00:16:15] transitioning to the hyperpigmentation clinic. And this was doing so well that my time [00:16:20] was more valued here than it was there. So even though this was a highly profitable [00:16:25] business and actually anyone would have been so happy with it, we shut it.

Rhona Eskander: So but [00:16:30] that’s the thing. Like, this is what I’m saying is a bit of a skill as well, because there were some clinics that probably were only [00:16:35] open for like 1 or 2 years, and then they actually sold during Covid because the [00:16:40] opportunity was, is that the EBITDA of the businesses looked really high because dentistry boomed [00:16:45] during Covid, which is different to what you had. And so those clinics, when they sold, they saw [00:16:50] the opportunity. They were like, you know what, I could probably work in this for another five, ten years, [00:16:55] even though like I know a clinic, they’d only been open for two years, but they were on that composite bonding boom. [00:17:00] Numbers look really high and they sold out for a really high amount. And then you think, why not? [00:17:05] Do you see what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Lucky timing as well. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don’t. It’s one of those one [00:17:10] of those things.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So also I want to move on to you were saying obviously that you had the pressures. You [00:17:15] knew that you had a lot of responsibilities. What does your partner do?

Vanita Rattan: So we’re in business together. [00:17:20] We’ve been business together from the beginning as well. No he did he did economics at UCL. [00:17:25] So we were dating at uni. Um we got married straight after I graduated and [00:17:30] actually on my engagement day, he was working at Lehman Brothers as a trader. [00:17:35] Okay. On our engagement day. Do you remember when Lehman Brothers collapsed? Yes. [00:17:40] And the men were coming out with their boxes. My husband was one of those men.

Payman Langroudi: No way.

Vanita Rattan: And [00:17:45] at the party, I engaged with a party. It was like some commiseration. Everyone was like, I’m [00:17:50] so sorry. Instead of like, congratulations. I was like, are you okay? My poor husband, like the sweetest man [00:17:55] you’ve ever met. He just, like, he just didn’t know what to do with his face. Yeah. And I was [00:18:00] like, this is like, not the best party. Like any other day.

Rhona Eskander: So [00:18:05] then what.

Vanita Rattan: Happened? Um, so actually on that day, my dad said to him, uh, to [00:18:10] my husband, um, she needs you. She needs you in business. [00:18:15] And this is when I was just launching ace medicine. So this was my first company we launched. Have you, [00:18:20] did you guys do ascii’s for for dentists? Yes. So we created something called Aclc. We won the British [00:18:25] Medical Association Book Awards against my dean of medicine. Yeah. Which was like, [00:18:30] incredible as a 24 year old girl. Um, and that we launch, I [00:18:35] was launching that I spent the last year and a half at medical school putting that together. So it’s a video library of before YouTube, [00:18:40] a video library of every imagine with a book that goes with it. So we launched that [00:18:45] and all these courses coming, but I physically, I’m not as good on the finances. [00:18:50] Like my husband is like, he’s really good at the minutiae. I’m like my husband, big hedge fund.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Yeah, [00:18:55] exactly. I’m big picture. I’m a.

Vanita Rattan: Big picture. Like go, go, go.

Rhona Eskander: He’s a minutiae. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: Like, don’t do that. [00:19:00] We’re not doing this. Yeah. We’re not spending money here. So actually, I needed him. I would have been [00:19:05] bankrupt without him. Yeah. So it’s the best thing ever. When Lehman Brothers went under for us Touchwood and [00:19:10] he, you know, trusted me to do this.

Rhona Eskander: So was he always [00:19:15] a business partner with you?

Vanita Rattan: From the beginning? From the day we got engaged.

Rhona Eskander: And my husband refuses [00:19:20] to become a business partner with me because he says that he always witnessed his parents [00:19:25] who were in business together. And he felt like it just put such a strain on their marriage and [00:19:30] he feels like. Then it becomes. And he’s he’s helped me like with bits on the clinic and then just like giving [00:19:35] me advice and stuff. But ultimately I find it really interesting because [00:19:40] I think it’s quite cool to do it. But I think he just feels like it’s, it puts a strain on the relationship.

Vanita Rattan: He’s [00:19:45] seen it like that. Then I totally understand. And you know what? If it [00:19:50] had been any any other person, but it wouldn’t have worked. I am [00:19:55] not an easy person to work with. I know this, I really I feel sorry for anyone that works with me before they [00:20:00] even come and work with me. I tell them I am. I’ve got really high standards. I work like a crazy person. Like [00:20:05] it’s best if you go and save yourself and run away from me like I really. Yeah. And he’s one of the only. [00:20:10]

Payman Langroudi: Were you like this when you were six?

Vanita Rattan: Uh, so I’m dyslexic and I went to one of the top [00:20:15] schools in the country. Um, and.

Rhona Eskander: When were you diagnosed?

Vanita Rattan: I never was diagnosed until I got to medical [00:20:20] school. And I diagnosed myself in the dyslexia lecture when I’m suddenly getting 100%. And [00:20:25] I was like, it’s not funny.

Payman Langroudi: Diagnose yourself in the dyslexia.

Rhona Eskander: Did [00:20:30] you have dyslexia with spelling? No. And no one noticed.

Vanita Rattan: I just thought I was thick. Yeah, I just thought [00:20:35] I was just slower and, like, just stupid, really, honestly. So I remember [00:20:40] you have to stand up and you’d read and all the, like, letters be jumbled up. And I just thought, that’s normal, right? [00:20:45] Because I don’t know what other people are seeing. All I know is that I can’t seem to read this thing and everyone’s reading fluently, [00:20:50] like I must be thick. And so I worked like a crazy person. [00:20:55] So it was it was sheer hard work. It was like, I’m going to outwork everybody, [00:21:00] 10 to 1. So I remember even my English teacher telling me, you’re not going to get a C. And I was [00:21:05] like, I can’t get into medical school with a C. And so I would do ten essays a night each [00:21:10] essays an hour, and I would come back the next day with ten essays, and I’d make her mark it like I was such [00:21:15] a psycho. When I go to study.

Rhona Eskander: That shows about determination, because I think that Neurodivergence [00:21:20] is so poorly understood. And I do feel, for example, that [00:21:25] we really need to revisit the school system like I’m late diagnosed ADHD and also [00:21:30] like I failed my 11 plus.

Vanita Rattan: Oh me.

Rhona Eskander: Too. When when I went to secondary school, it was a [00:21:35] very artistic school. And I remember the headmaster or whoever was interviewing me had written not [00:21:40] very clever, but might be good at drama. And in my school, no one was interested in [00:21:45] dentistry because most people did want to go into the arts and drama and all that kind of thing. I really wanted to be a dentist, [00:21:50] and just like you, I just really focussed. I wasn’t one of these people. I couldn’t do last [00:21:55] minute revision. I had to do three months before the exam, write it out, write it out, [00:22:00] write it out, write it out. And the repetition piece was really important for me. And obviously I [00:22:05] did end up getting into dental school. And then I realised that my brain was really into English and philosophy [00:22:10] and then chemistry and biology. But the problem is, is that neurodivergent brains are treated like [00:22:15] a problem. And I think it’s like the stats show a lot more people are neurodivergent [00:22:20] than neurotypical. And that could be things like dyslexia, ADHD, [00:22:25] autism, all these different things. And people treat it like it’s a problem. [00:22:30] But I find it crazy when you’d know better with both your kids. Like, has the curriculum changed that much [00:22:35] since we were at school?

Payman Langroudi: Like they give a lot of like, oh, you can have extra time in exams if you’ve [00:22:40] got a diagnosis.

Rhona Eskander: But has the actual.

Payman Langroudi: Class gets that, by the way, half the class gets extra [00:22:45] time for their exams. And when I talk to my kids about their friends who are on medication, [00:22:50] which you might have been on if you were a kid today.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, well I wasn’t.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that happens. Right. [00:22:55]

Rhona Eskander: But a lot of them on like ADHD meds.

Payman Langroudi: And like 5 or 6 of my daughter’s friends, you know, [00:23:00] or my son’s. Yeah, yeah. It’s common these days. And one thing my, my daughter said to me was [00:23:05] that, um, a lot of times it’s more for the class than for the kid. [00:23:10] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: In what way?

Payman Langroudi: As in the kid, you know, disruptive. Compliant when he’s on his medication.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, [00:23:15] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But you know, when they’re off their medication because they’re such amazing people and it’s [00:23:20] a sad it’s a sad thing.

Rhona Eskander: Well, this is the thing. I spoke to a friend of mine who’s a model very successful yesterday, [00:23:25] and we were talking about ADHD medications, and she said to me that she tried it, but it stunted all [00:23:30] of her creativity. Yeah. And I find that interesting because when you look at a lot of people, particularly when it comes [00:23:35] to media and the way that they think, a lot of people do have ADHD. And when I used [00:23:40] to think of ADHD, because obviously I wasn’t diagnosed in school, I wasn’t your typical person because I [00:23:45] wasn’t climbing up the walls, which was what you’d have, you know, the boy that would go crazy if he had Haribo, you know, like [00:23:50] he needs Ritalin. That was the sort of stigma we had. But I think it’s just a lot more nuanced than that [00:23:55] because, as you said, dyslexia, you might immediately, because of your own biases, be like, [00:24:00] that’s the person that can’t spell, read or write and not recognise that like it’s a doctor. Do you know what I mean? It’s somebody [00:24:05] that’s incredibly intelligent.

Payman Langroudi: Funny the way you’re talking about sort of that obsessive. [00:24:10]

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Kind of side of you.

Vanita Rattan: It’s too much even for me. This [00:24:15] is why I give myself palpitations.

Payman Langroudi: Your biggest, your biggest strength is your biggest weakness, right? Often. Yeah. [00:24:20] So. So I was gonna, I’ll get to like, what is the problem side of it? Because obviously the, the, the [00:24:25] plus side looks quite obvious. You’re achieving loads and all of that. But really what I’m quite interested in is [00:24:30] what was the trigger for it? Like, were you always that?

Vanita Rattan: So I [00:24:35] first of all, I’m a child of immigrants. And I think that is really important.

Payman Langroudi: Come from.

Vanita Rattan: So [00:24:40] from Kenya, um.

Payman Langroudi: Africa, so many.

Vanita Rattan: I know we’ve been there for 100 years actually. [00:24:45] So even though India.

Payman Langroudi: The top people I speak to, yeah.

Rhona Eskander: There’s an amazing dentist that’s starting [00:24:50] with me from Kenya actually.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm.

Rhona Eskander: And I don’t know if you know him. He’s very, [00:24:55] very, very talented. Very hard working. Yeah, but go ahead.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, yeah. So coming from that immigrant mentality, [00:25:00] they were already in survival state.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And if they’re looking at their child and their child [00:25:05] is struggling, it’s just pure anger, right? Like they, they. Let’s [00:25:10] be real. And so for that, that’s their translation of [00:25:15] love. Or like they just, they’re in fear, fear state. And so you are absorbing their [00:25:20] fear state and all you can do. The only thing in your power is to work. [00:25:25] That’s all you can do. You can outwork everybody. That’s the only thing that you can control. You can’t control how [00:25:30] intelligent you are. You can’t control how you’re reading. There’s so much not in your control, but this you can control. [00:25:35] And so.

Payman Langroudi: So can we talk about sacrifice?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. I didn’t have a child. Like I wouldn’t not as in [00:25:40] didn’t have a childhood, but I didn’t, I didn’t have go out. I didn’t have friends. I wasn’t allowed out. I, it was like.

Rhona Eskander: Did your parents [00:25:45] put that for you?

Vanita Rattan: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: And what about now though?

Vanita Rattan: Now, now, now is very different. Now I’m in.

Payman Langroudi: Control. [00:25:50] But you are. You’re sacrificing something by being this obsessed with.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. Even today I was thinking today, like, when was [00:25:55] the last time I went to see my friends?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, that’s.

Vanita Rattan: Something I don’t. And I.

Payman Langroudi: You just said you’ve got 40 [00:26:00] skews.

Vanita Rattan: I know I tell my friends like I blow everybody off and it’s actually my fault. And I, and [00:26:05] I was even telling my husband today, I was like, why do I do that? He’s like, yeah, why do you do that? And I was like, because I’m still in this warrior [00:26:10] mindset. I’m not in.

Payman Langroudi: This with a product launch. It’s like a wedding or something. Yeah, nothing [00:26:15] can go wrong.

Vanita Rattan: But it never ends right for.

Payman Langroudi: Me.

Vanita Rattan: I have new products coming out. I’ve got [00:26:20] ten products coming out in the next six months.

Payman Langroudi: So what are you losing out on in life? Are you not travelling?

Vanita Rattan: No, we travel [00:26:25] a lot, thankfully. So holidays are really important.

Payman Langroudi: Are you doing?

Rhona Eskander: Do you work on holiday?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, we always [00:26:30] like. I’m always making reels and content on holiday, writing scripts, but I do actually really enjoy [00:26:35] my holidays. I think what I don’t do is spend time with my friends, I think have girl time and just gossip [00:26:40] and just chat. I don’t do that actually. I don’t give myself grace and [00:26:45] just go, I’m blocking this time just to have fun with my friends like that is never in the diary. [00:26:50] And I think moving forward, that is something I definitely need to do for myself. [00:26:55] And I really want my children to be different to me. Like I don’t want them to have to, you know, mechanically [00:27:00] think I need to see my friends. You know, it should be natural that.

Rhona Eskander: How old [00:27:05] were. So how old are your children?

Vanita Rattan: So my daughter is 12 and my son is nine. [00:27:10]

Rhona Eskander: And when they were first born, what business was launched at that [00:27:15] point.

Vanita Rattan: So when I was pregnant with my daughter, I had ace medicine. [00:27:20] Um, I had, I was actually launching a restaurant which [00:27:25] failed, which failed in Westfield’s the most expensive failure of my [00:27:30] life that caused me.

Rhona Eskander: I’ve had restaurants are huge.

Vanita Rattan: It was like I was in my. I was 28. We lost over a quarter of £1 [00:27:35] million. That was like all our savings plus like our property, the one house, the flat that we were living [00:27:40] in.

Payman Langroudi: What kind of Indian.

Vanita Rattan: It was. No she wasn’t. It was teppanyaki. Japanese.

Rhona Eskander: Why do you [00:27:45] think it didn’t work?

Vanita Rattan: Wrong location. I never go into a business that has [00:27:50] a low barriers to entry because the competition is too great. So what I learned was all the businesses that [00:27:55] I started that were medical businesses that you need to have a certain level of knowledge, were [00:28:00] all very successful businesses that have that anyone can start. You don’t need, [00:28:05] you know, a certain level of degree in something. They’re very, [00:28:10] very difficult. Like you don’t do it. That’s my learning to myself and learning to everybody is [00:28:15] higher. Barriers to entry are the types of businesses you need to get into. So that’s why I was doing that at the same time. [00:28:20] So I remember that was a failing business while I was pregnant. I’d had like a knee injury at the time as well. So that was [00:28:25] with my daughter Sienna, then with Josh. Um, we were [00:28:30] in a much better place actually. We had the clinics and we didn’t have ace medicine [00:28:35] anymore and the restaurant had shut. So actually we were in a much, much better place when it came to Josh’s [00:28:40] turn.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so my question is, how did you deal with motherhood and running businesses?

Vanita Rattan: So [00:28:45] thankfully it was when it came to the clinics, we I was basically in the clinics on the [00:28:50] weekends. So maybe two days a week or three days a week. And then during the rest of the week, I was at home. [00:28:55] Then my husband was working from home because you can work from home, you can have a home office. [00:29:00] And so that was actually like not terrible. But my daughter was [00:29:05] from ten months old. She’s been at nursery like, you know, five days a week until 6 p.m.. So [00:29:10] I think I actually really missed out on a lot of her childhood because at the weekends I’m working. So [00:29:15] I really was only seeing her in the evenings. And so when it came to Josh’s [00:29:20] time, I really wanted to spend a bit more time with him. But again, it wasn’t as much as I would have wanted. And [00:29:25] there is a sacrifice there. And I think it’s only probably now that I’m spending. [00:29:30]

Rhona Eskander: But from working from home. Were you able to do that?

Vanita Rattan: I so because the kids were at nursery, like [00:29:35] because we had to work. If the kids are at home that I don’t know how people do this. Some people work with their kids at home. There’s [00:29:40] no way we could have done that.

Rhona Eskander: I mean, listen, I have a nanny and the days [00:29:45] that I work from home, so I work from home now. Like, I only go into clinic two days a week, and the rest [00:29:50] of the time is like managing the clinic and doing all the stuff like content, articles, [00:29:55] like all that stuff. And it takes so much time. But like if my nanny wasn’t there because even [00:30:00] though people are like, oh, you know, a baby that’s like a few months old and like, they still need attention. You can’t [00:30:05] just like leave them. You know, you just can’t just leave them. So I think it is really hard. And I think it’s [00:30:10] a false narrative. Like, I don’t think anyone has kind of worked out the perfect balance [00:30:15] between kids and, um, between kids and business.

Vanita Rattan: You definitely [00:30:20] sacrificing something. I couldn’t even have a nanny in the house, I think. I think that would even distract me. Like when I’m in, when I’m [00:30:25] deep work, I’m in deep work. I can’t, I can’t actually have even like a cleaner around or anyone. [00:30:30] So it’s amazing that you can do that. And then some people do it without a nanny and they just have the child and they’re looking [00:30:35] after the child while they’re doing their work. I have no idea how people do that. I think it’s incredible. [00:30:40] But I, I just we just couldn’t do that. It’s too hard.

Rhona Eskander: Okay, so [00:30:45] I want to move on now because we’ve obviously talked about, um, how [00:30:50] it came along. So when it was the lip and everything and I want [00:30:55] to know something else. Have you always seen yourself as an entrepreneur?

Vanita Rattan: Definitely from 13 [00:31:00] years old. When I learnt about Richard Branson, I remember reading his autobiography and it [00:31:05] was such an eye opener because he was dyslexic and I knew he struggled at school and [00:31:10] if he could struggle at school and he became a billionaire, I could be a billionaire. Literally, [00:31:15] that’s how basic my thinking was. And to this day, that’s one of my core beliefs, [00:31:20] is he did it so I can do it.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, I love that so much because I always say, and this [00:31:25] is something that like differs between me and my husband is like, my husband is incredibly successful [00:31:30] working in a hedge fund, but he’s much more of like a realist, [00:31:35] you know, whereas I’m more of a fantasist. And I think that’s definitely like the ADHD. But I do [00:31:40] think that fantasists are the reason why they get so far, because they do believe the sky is the limit. [00:31:45] Yeah, but they believe the sky is the limit, like you said, like if you look at somebody and you’re like, but if they [00:31:50] can do it, why can’t I do it? And I often ask him, because the guy, his boss that owns the [00:31:55] hedge fund is obviously a billionaire. And I was like, can you ask him, how [00:32:00] do you become a billionaire? Like, how do you become a billionaire? And the interesting thing was, and [00:32:05] I have to admit, after the Epstein release files. I do [00:32:10] think there is an element of being unethical. I do think so now, and [00:32:15] I that’s the thing. And the thing is, is like, yes, even Richard Branson was in those files. This is why I’m saying [00:32:20] like, I do think the level of a multi-millionaire gigantic. The difference between that is like, [00:32:25] there must be an element of you being like, do you know what? I am going to sell a little bit of my soul in [00:32:30] whatever capacity to get to that next level?

Vanita Rattan: I think it’s audacity. I think that [00:32:35] the billionaires have a level of audacity that most of us are scared to feel. [00:32:40] We’re scared because a lot of us, we’ve all been institutionalised. Why is it that the [00:32:45] that these rebel billionaires become rebel billionaires? Right. They a lot of them didn’t do well at [00:32:50] school. A lot of them actually weren’t institutionalised.

Rhona Eskander: But with even Epstein, they don’t know how he made his [00:32:55] money. Like as in, it’s all still a bit of an enigma. And that whole.

Vanita Rattan: Thing makes me feel.

Rhona Eskander: Sick. But but [00:33:00] even with that, they’re like, he was a maths teacher and then he created this, you [00:33:05] know.

Payman Langroudi: Gigantic amounts of money coming in quickly. Something’s [00:33:10] going on, right? Something. Did you have you watched the.

Vanita Rattan: Netflix documentary on it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. It [00:33:15] didn’t. It didn’t even touch, touch, touch the surface.

Rhona Eskander: That didn’t even touch the surface.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t [00:33:20] mention anything about like, intelligence or anything. But anyway, but my question is like what you said [00:33:25] about billionaires, either you are a complete genius and lucky and [00:33:30] all those things together here, which is very few people. Or there’s [00:33:35] an inheritance story, which is another or something’s going on, something’s [00:33:40] going on, you know that, you know, gigantic amounts of money don’t go billionaire is [00:33:45] totally different to.

Rhona Eskander: Multi-millionaire.

Payman Langroudi: Multi-millionaire.

Rhona Eskander: That’s what I.

Payman Langroudi: Said. And there’s an insatiable desire [00:33:50] to control.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: And because I think it becomes about power as well. [00:33:55]

Payman Langroudi: You know, I think for me.

Vanita Rattan: Because of my upbringing, [00:34:00] I’ve my mission has always been for girls and for women empowering [00:34:05] girls and women. I’m really grateful that I’m an Indian girl in the UK, because [00:34:10] being an Indian girl means that I have the immigrant mindset. But number two, I’m not [00:34:15] in a patriarchal community.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: And I imagine what Indian girl can do in this environment. [00:34:20] But imagine all those Indian girls who aren’t in this environment.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanita Rattan: So for me, like [00:34:25] money equals how many women can I help? For me, that’s what it really [00:34:30] comes down to because you can only spend so much, right? There’s only so much status. You can have.

Rhona Eskander: Freedom. I mean, for [00:34:35] me, like, you know, I watch something. There is a girl on Instagram. I’m sure you’ve seen [00:34:40] her and she follow her, but like she calls herself the frugal chick and she does all this stuff about like money. [00:34:45] And then she basically says like, here is how I actually ended up getting a lot of money. She’s like, sometimes you got [00:34:50] to look at as money as being neutral and not dirty and unethical. You know, that like level of money. And I was [00:34:55] like, that’s quite interesting because I think people are embarrassed to say, I like making a lot of [00:35:00] money or I want a lot of money. They feel like it’s almost like dirty like that association. But [00:35:05] there’s a lot of people that do.

Vanita Rattan: But I think that puts us in a very.

Rhona Eskander: Limited, more scarcity mindset. [00:35:10] But also the thing is, is that mostly I think people like money because of freedom, because that’s [00:35:15] what it is. It buys freedom.

Vanita Rattan: That’s it. That’s really key, right? Like, let’s be real. [00:35:20]

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: For women, freedom is everything. We’ve for decades, for generations, [00:35:25] we’ve not had freedom that now I think girls are waking up to the idea that [00:35:30] they need to be able to earn their own freedom. Yeah. When you have money, no one can say anything to you. [00:35:35] Yeah, yeah, that’s what it is. Why would anyone think that’s dirty?

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: I don’t understand that at [00:35:40] all.

Payman Langroudi: Well, well, I mean, it’s important that you kind of you still man the opposite side. [00:35:45]

Vanita Rattan: Well tell me, tell me. Why is it.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Vanita Rattan: Tell me? Oh, I don’t think it’s dirty. I think it’s a good thing.

Payman Langroudi: It’s important you [00:35:50] understand the other side of one thing you don’t think about.

Vanita Rattan: Tell me what.

Payman Langroudi: You should tell me.

Rhona Eskander: He’s challenging [00:35:55] you.

Payman Langroudi: It’s important.

Vanita Rattan: Why do they think that? Why?

Rhona Eskander: Why do people. Some people would think it is.

Vanita Rattan: I [00:36:00] actually think, um, I, I think it’s coming from an unhealthy [00:36:05] mindset and I think it’s a way to keep people down. I think it’s a mindset that’s been [00:36:10] spread in order to keep people where they should be, keep them in their boxes. [00:36:15]

Payman Langroudi: Control.

Vanita Rattan: It’s a way of controlling classes. Way of controlling people is [00:36:20] by spreading. It’s a false lie. It’s a lie. What do you mean? Money [00:36:25] can’t be dirty. It’s just. It’s just a currency of time. It’s a currency of effort, and [00:36:30] it gives you freedom.

Payman Langroudi: But it could be that. And something intellectually honest as well. So can [00:36:35] you think of.

Vanita Rattan: What do you mean?

Rhona Eskander: I think, well, I know that some people say, for example, if [00:36:40] we look at billionaires and who we consider to be controlling the world that we live in. So whether it’s Mark Zuckerberg, [00:36:45] Bill gates and all these people, again, people that are heavily associated with something like [00:36:50] the Epstein files, people would consider that it’s largely unethical. People [00:36:55] that are controlling the world, that don’t really care about other human beings because it benefits [00:37:00] them. And that’s where the negative connotation comes. Okay.

Vanita Rattan: Okay. So imagine you became [00:37:05] a billionaire. You’re nothing like any of these.

Rhona Eskander: Totally, totally.

Vanita Rattan: Is is being is [00:37:10] being a billionaire bad or is it how you get there and what you do with your [00:37:15] with your power?

Rhona Eskander: I would say that what I told you, as I said, unfortunately, the [00:37:20] sad truth is, is that the way that most people get there isn’t a way that [00:37:25] is necessarily desired by the masses. You know, and I think that when you’re surprised [00:37:30] by someone like Richard Branson, who you think is a really philanthropic guy, and I’m not saying [00:37:35] he did anything wrong, like he didn’t do anything wrong. He was. I mean, yeah, but the fact is, is that he probably knew what [00:37:40] was going on and was okay with it. Right. And whatever the point is, is that I think [00:37:45] that that’s why people would have this. They’re like, these people are controlling the world. And also [00:37:50] they’re the ones and they’re the ones that are keeping other people more in their box. [00:37:55] So they could be billionaires. So they’re the ones. There’s other people thinking, hey, we’re actually not as rich [00:38:00] and not as successful because the billionaires don’t want us to be there.

Vanita Rattan: But then shouldn’t the shouldn’t the thinking be. [00:38:05] So I get that. But shouldn’t the thinking be, why can’t we all [00:38:10] strive for that? Like, instead of instead of like, that’s a bad person or that’s a bad person [00:38:15] because we can waste our energy thinking like that, or we can put our energy into ourselves [00:38:20] and go, do you know what? How did that person get there? And is that a way that I want to get there? What is a [00:38:25] strategy? What do they read? What did they do and how do I implement that in my life?

Rhona Eskander: I think it’s all about personal happiness. [00:38:30] Like for me, I’ve always been inspired by entrepreneurs. I’ve always been inspired. [00:38:35] Like you, I came from an immigrant family, but also like from an immigrant family that came to [00:38:40] the UK with not a lot. And for me, I was like, yes. And I looked up to those people at [00:38:45] school that lived in better houses and dressed better. But then I also have some friends. Their [00:38:50] values are different to mine, so they can’t understand why I want to be so successful [00:38:55] and why I want to make so much money.

Vanita Rattan: I think it’s like a safety net.

Rhona Eskander: They want that. They’re happy [00:39:00] in a life where, for example, they don’t work a lot and they get to spend time with their [00:39:05] family or like they can go on a couple of holidays and they’re genuinely happy with that. So I think [00:39:10] it all is about your personal preferences.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, I think it’s more than personal preferences. I think they haven’t seen [00:39:15] how bad it can get if you don’t have it. Yeah. And [00:39:20] they’re lucky. Honestly, I think it’s a privilege. If you can live like that and, and [00:39:25] not have to push yourself and you’re happy and like everything’s going well, it means you’ve had a [00:39:30] beautiful life. It means actually you haven’t seen as much pain. People have come from pain [00:39:35] and have seen you with nothing. They’ve got this thing in their belly like it’s a fire [00:39:40] and we don’t even like it. We don’t want this fire in our belly. Like even after you’ve got everything that you need, that fire doesn’t [00:39:45] go. Yeah. It’s a pain that you draw upon and it pushes you further [00:39:50] and further and further. So it’s a beautiful thing if you can be like that, right? Like, I’m so happy for [00:39:55] these people. They’ve had obviously had a beautiful like upbringings and childhoods and come from stability. [00:40:00] But if you’ve had if you’ve come from an immigrant, you know, backing [00:40:05] your mindset is going to be different. And it’s not no one’s good and no one’s bad and nothing’s right and [00:40:10] nothing’s wrong. It’s just the way it is. Do you think?

Rhona Eskander: I think, I mean.

Payman Langroudi: Can I steal it then? Can [00:40:15] I say what what it might be? I’m not saying I believe you know, I’m a I have a company. [00:40:20] Right. Yeah. So I’m chasing.

Rhona Eskander: We all have companies.

Payman Langroudi: I’m. I’m chasing wealth, let’s say. [00:40:25] Yeah. But the problem with chasing wealth, what are the problems with number one, what you’re saying about, [00:40:30] you know, what should you be spending your time doing to get to the place you want to get to as fast as possible? Often [00:40:35] when wealth is the, the, the focus, you’re climbing up the wrong, wrong [00:40:40] ladder faster. Yeah. So it’s not just an efficiency game. It’s a question [00:40:45] of which ladder should I climb? Should I climb the one that gets me richest? Or should I climb the one that [00:40:50] gets me happiest? Or should I climb the one that gets other people happiest or whatever it is. So, so, [00:40:55] you know. And these successful people you’re talking about. Yeah. Outside of the, you know, the unethical [00:41:00] ones, often their pursuit is something else. Money is the result of that [00:41:05] pursuit, ideally.

Vanita Rattan: So for me, I can only talk about myself because I can’t talk about [00:41:10] others. For me, it just so happens the thing that I’m passionate about, which by the way, could have [00:41:15] fallen flat on my face, right? I’ve invested my whole life into skin of colour and easily. [00:41:20] It could have not have resonated. People might not have watched and people might not have cared. And I would have invested my whole life, my whole [00:41:25] savings, everything into this thing. It just so happened the thing that I’m passionate about, enough [00:41:30] people could see the benefit and enough people bought into my vision [00:41:35] to, to, to make all those three ladders align. But it might [00:41:40] not always be that your three ladders are aligned and you’re going to have to pick. So I fully understand what you’re saying. [00:41:45] And I understand that some people are going to pick different ladders for me. I’m just grateful that all three ladders aligned. [00:41:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But there’s another dimension as well. You know, we’re all medically kind of you are [00:41:55] intensely trained. And, you know, what is it to be a professional? [00:42:00] Yeah. What is that?

Vanita Rattan: So for me, um, for me, being a professional means [00:42:05] you’ve done a certain level of education. You’ve passed certain exams that are international [00:42:10] standards. Um, and then you have a level of ethics. So [00:42:15] you. Hippocratic oath, Hippocratic oath, but also, and more than that, it’s a respect for your colleagues [00:42:20] and never doing anything to harm your profession, [00:42:25] harm your colleagues, um, but also holding each other to high standards. [00:42:30] So pushing boundaries, um, and sometimes disagreeing [00:42:35] with your colleagues in order to push boundaries, which I do quite a lot. Because guess [00:42:40] what? There’s only about 8% of, um, skin of colour images, [00:42:45] even in medical books. And my whole, for me, my whole research has been on skin of colour, [00:42:50] so I do tend to be in this field a lot. Um, but yeah, for me that’s what it means. [00:42:55] But it’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s an important question, right? Insomuch as you’re the, you are a doctor brand. Yeah. [00:43:00] Yeah. You are a doctor brand. Yeah. I’m not a doctor brand. I mean, I happen to be a dentist. Yeah. [00:43:05] But I’m not using the fact that I’m a dentist to to sell anything. Yeah, that’s not what I’m selling through. [00:43:10] Um, if you’re a doctor brand and we’re saying being a professional is all things that you [00:43:15] said on top of that stuff, like ethical stuff like, um, what you do when [00:43:20] no one else is looking kind of as a dentist is massive, right? No one is looking at [00:43:25] what you’re really doing on top of maybe, you know, putting the patient’s interests before [00:43:30] your own. Yeah. Then you have to understand, when I say steel man, understand what [00:43:35] the critics are saying, the critics are saying, look, you’re using the doctor brand to make money. [00:43:40] The doctor brand also represents the patient’s interests. Before. Before yours. [00:43:45] Wait wait wait wait. Of course, of course. When you’re running a successful company like you are, you’re aligning [00:43:50] the patient’s best interests with your best interests. Of course. Yeah. But it’s important [00:43:55] in every situation. If you support Palestine over Israel, super important to know what the Israelis are thinking. [00:44:00]

Vanita Rattan: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it like whatever it is.

Rhona Eskander: And I think there is something to be said for that because [00:44:05] I think it’s really important. And again, I’ll tell you this because I’ve been in the firing line of [00:44:10] this the first time I got asked. So as you know, I’m a massive contributor of ITV [00:44:15] this morning. I go on a lot, right, and love working with them. I got asked to be on another [00:44:20] TV channel, which I won’t name big big TV channel. The first time that I got [00:44:25] asked to be on I went the way that I would normally go. Went to hair and makeup. They do hair and [00:44:30] makeup and I went and I looked great. Then a lot of people DM’d me that [00:44:35] had watched it and were really angry. I went on, I did oral hygiene advice, [00:44:40] and the reason why they were angry is because apparently this institute shouldn’t look. [00:44:45] Shouldn’t use such glamorous looking people, and that the medical industry [00:44:50] has failed in the UK because we no longer represent the Florence [00:44:55] Nightingale type healthcare professional. So this was interesting [00:45:00] because I was like, I’m meant to look a certain way to make you feel more comfortable. [00:45:05]

Rhona Eskander: And I do think that there is this subconscious bias. Listen, I am glam. I’ve always [00:45:10] been glam. That’s me. I’m Middle Eastern. You know how it rolls as well. You know, with Middle Eastern being like [00:45:15] out there. But the fact is, is that he thinks that I’m more trustworthy and more believable [00:45:20] if I look like Florence Nightingale, who helped like war victims. Right. So I do [00:45:25] think and then he started berating me about, I don’t know, some person in my DMs [00:45:30] right then started berating me about why I don’t work on the NHS anymore. [00:45:35] And I do think, like what Payman was saying is that people think because we’re healthcare [00:45:40] professionals, there’s almost like a misalignment because you have to be so [00:45:45] indebted to the health care system that almost you shouldn’t [00:45:50] be worrying about things like money. I don’t agree with that because I have my own private practice and [00:45:55] I still have very high ethical and moral standards. But I understand what you’re [00:46:00] saying, that people do have this connotation of the way doctors and dentists should look like and behave.

Payman Langroudi: I [00:46:05] mean, the guy who DM’d you and said, that is a dick. I’m really sorry.

Vanita Rattan: You went through that. I think that’s just ridiculous. [00:46:10]

Payman Langroudi: He is a dick. But it’s important to understand why. What was the guy thinking? To [00:46:15] act on it and say, you should be like this. That makes him a bit of a.

Vanita Rattan: He might.

Payman Langroudi: Have a bit of a fool.

Vanita Rattan: Things [00:46:20] going on, I.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t. Yeah, yeah. That too.

Rhona Eskander: I do think as well. And, you know, the thing is I did joke because [00:46:25] I did. You see my. So I put it on trial reels because I was really angry. I was in the I was in the rain [00:46:30] the other day going on the tube like really angry, like a little Grinch. Right. [00:46:35] And like, do you know about trial reels? So trial reels, you know, of course you can post a reel [00:46:40] on Instagram that you don’t show your normal audience. And if it does well to another audience, [00:46:45] they post it on your real grid. So I was there, pissed off, and on a whim. I was [00:46:50] just like, so if all the other dentists are taking private jets and I’m here on the tube [00:46:55] and it started to go viral and I was like, oh crap, you know? And the thing is, and then it posted [00:47:00] it on my real one. And I was like, really embarrassed all of a sudden.

Payman Langroudi: It was brilliant. I thought it was brilliant.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. But [00:47:05] that was the point. Because also at the same time, I think that there is a difference between actual success and [00:47:10] what you’re projecting, because certain dentists that claim to be taking private jets [00:47:15] from one regional city to another regional city, it’s like, but what’s the point in that? Do [00:47:20] you know what I mean? You know, just be like a normal human. I feel like.

Payman Langroudi: The version of your brow lift [00:47:25] or whatever, you know, like it’s content as far as they’re concerned. It’s content.

Vanita Rattan: That’s content. Yeah. For me, it’s actually the other way. [00:47:30] So my followers know that we I’ve never actually, I don’t know if they know, hey guys, I don’t know if you know this. [00:47:35] Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: We heard it first here. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: We’ve never accepted [00:47:40] um investment from any anyone. And we’re.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah, let’s talk about that.

Vanita Rattan: Let’s talk about that. [00:47:45] We get offered it all the time. And I say no all the time. Um, because [00:47:50] a couple of reasons. Number one, it means I’m, I’m [00:47:55] very careful with every pound that we spend. Number two, it means that no [00:48:00] one has control over me. And so for me, money equals freedom. Yeah. And I make [00:48:05] some absurd decisions. I’ll give you an example. We we launched [00:48:10] the world’s first mineral sunscreen for the body. It was a [00:48:15] break even product of a hero product. Like imagine your hero product. It [00:48:20] makes no sense for you to make it three times the size at two [00:48:25] thirds of the cost, which is your break even price and sell it. It makes no financial [00:48:30] sense, but I know that my community needed it, and I’m the only one that had the formula, [00:48:35] and I’m the only one who’s going to go and do that. Whereas if I had investors, there’s no way I would have [00:48:40] been allowed to.

Payman Langroudi: I disagree with that, insomuch as my biggest regret is not taking [00:48:45] on investment. Oh, really? Really? And my and my excuses were all the same as yours. Tell [00:48:50] me. Yeah. I don’t want anyone to interfere. And there’s some things I do that make sense. We [00:48:55] have stupid parties with, you know that. We spend loads of money just having fun. Yeah. [00:49:00] Um. Same excuses. We’re in London. Yeah. The investment capital of the [00:49:05] world. Yeah. You could, if you got the right investor, the right investor didn’t interfere. [00:49:10] You go buy your three adjacent companies and, [00:49:15] you know, I can’t.

Vanita Rattan: Even deal with my own one company. Imagine three adjacent companies.

Payman Langroudi: My my point [00:49:20] is, my point is don’t, don’t don’t tell yourself the story of control [00:49:25] and la la la la la. If it was like that, there would be. There would be. Yeah, but there’s a [00:49:30] small downside of that. Yeah. But the upside of if I inject 50 million into the business. Yeah. [00:49:35]

Vanita Rattan: I just I don’t think it changed my business. That’s the thing. It’s like if you gave me ten.

Payman Langroudi: You don’t, then you’re not the right person [00:49:40] to take investment, but the right person like your your partner, let’s say just [00:49:45] for the sake of the argument, your husband. Yeah, yeah. If he made a little business plan, if [00:49:50] 50 million came in, he would do X, Y, and Z. I’m it’s a silly thing to say because no [00:49:55] one throws 50 million at you. At. You like that. Yeah, but we’re in London. We’re in the centre [00:50:00] of everything. You’re an amazing operator. Amazing operator. So you leveraged [00:50:05] you scalable. Yeah. Could be extraordinary. You could be like Glossier [00:50:10] or whatever it is. You know, I don’t know anything about skincare.

Vanita Rattan: I’ve thought about this and I just don’t know [00:50:15] if investment would even work for me. So for example, Sephora is where usually a lot of brands [00:50:20] like the dream is to get into Sephora, right? And you need, you need about 10 million, honestly, [00:50:25] before you even think about Sephora, because you need stock in every like you need end [00:50:30] caps cost money, everything costs money in Sephora. But if you look at the margins [00:50:35] of Sephora takes and then the cost of my products, I would be breaking even.

Rhona Eskander: Listen. [00:50:40]

Vanita Rattan: No matter how much investment you give me, it wouldn’t even make it decent.

Rhona Eskander: That [00:50:45] stuff is all branding exercise because obviously I’m a co-founder of parlour and we’re in the big all of the big retailers [00:50:50] Ocado, Sainsbury’s, boots. But the thing is, we don’t rely on that. Like getting [00:50:55] into the retailers for anybody has never been. And I’ll tell you, the girlfriend of mine that I told [00:51:00] you that has the jewellery brand. I said to her, what’s your biggest regret? She said to me, going [00:51:05] into Net-A-Porter, going into Liberty’s, going into Selfridges, she was like, [00:51:10] it absolutely slashed it. She was like, because they basically take everything and you make nothing. [00:51:15] Essentially, she’s like, yeah, sure. It put the brand out there. She’s like, but if I stayed as a brand that [00:51:20] was direct to consumer website, that’s where I was making the profit. [00:51:25] And then you start getting caught up, oh, but I’m in Net-A-Porter, I’m in this, I’m in that. Do you see what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: I had [00:51:30] a meeting with there was a very famous toothpaste. I’ll tell you once we switch off the.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. Mike’s. [00:51:35]

Payman Langroudi: Mike’s very famous toothpaste that came. It looked like it was doing so well. And it did do well. Yeah, [00:51:40] it was in every single supermarket in volume. You know, it was like they had whole shelves [00:51:45] had a meeting with the the number two there. I said, so how much money were you guys making [00:51:50] back then? And it was like, oh, £4 million or something like turning over £4 million. Yeah. And if you [00:51:55] weren’t.

Vanita Rattan: Turning.

Payman Langroudi: Over. Yeah. If you went into stores.

Vanita Rattan: By the way, they’re making nothing. Yeah. Because you’re [00:52:00] turning over 4 million. You’re making. Yeah, exactly. 50pa it depends.

Payman Langroudi: A [00:52:05] product depends on your situation. Right. But but but you’re right. Insomuch as they slashed [00:52:10] prices you know what boots is like. Buy two, get one free. You fund.

Vanita Rattan: It. Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. [00:52:15] You fund.

Payman Langroudi: It. Tesco said oh bring us a different skew that we can sell at, you know [00:52:20] the same price as Colgate or whatever. This guy wasn’t Colgate. Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: Because you’re not as scalable. [00:52:25] Yeah. And especially with me I’ve put so many actives into my products. Yeah. I would be making a loss. [00:52:30]

Payman Langroudi: No of course, of course.

Vanita Rattan: But I feel like the worst because.

Payman Langroudi: He’s taken the product that started [00:52:35] out, by the way, in toothpaste. £12 is a lot for that. [00:52:40] It started out as a £12 toothpaste and it ended up as a £3 991.

Vanita Rattan: Oh my.

Payman Langroudi: Goodness. And [00:52:45] my point is, even though it looked like it was everywhere and it was a success story, the [00:52:50] maximum he turned over was £4 million.

Vanita Rattan: So many businesses going under from Sephora right now like skin [00:52:55] of colour businesses in skincare. In my world, I just think, and they look like they’re doing so [00:53:00] well. They had investment they had in every magazine. Like, what more could you want? Right? [00:53:05]

Rhona Eskander: Can I ask you something as well? Do you think. Do you feel. Because obviously we’re a similar age. [00:53:10] The Eurocentric beauty standards, did it have a really negative impact on you [00:53:15] growing up?

Payman Langroudi: What does that mean? White skin.

Rhona Eskander: Like. Yeah, yeah. White skin, blue eyes, blonde [00:53:20] hair.

Vanita Rattan: So I went to, I went to one of the, an incredible school, one of the top schools in the country. [00:53:25] And it was everyone was, you know, what’s called a lay down holiday school for girls. [00:53:30] We were the fourth best in the country when we did GCSEs and A levels. Like really everyone [00:53:35] was Mensa students. Incredible. Incredible. School teachers were amazing and [00:53:40] I was one of the, I think 2 or 3 Indians in the year like everybody, and one black girl [00:53:45] who was my best friend, like literally everyone was Caucasian. Um, and I really struggled [00:53:50] at school on so many different fronts. I think that was one of the fronts. I also was like, [00:53:55] my body shape didn’t fit the white Caucasian body shape. Um, [00:54:00] my hair growth. Yeah. And then also had a very strict [00:54:05] upbringing, very different background, immigrant mentality. So very boarding school. [00:54:10] It wasn’t a boarding school. No, but I was quite isolated. I couldn’t really make friends because I had nothing [00:54:15] in common. Like the conversation was everything.

Rhona Eskander: I do think social media has been great for that because it’s the same like between [00:54:20] 16 to 18. I used to get scouted for modelling quite a lot, and then like the Caucasian girls [00:54:25] that I was living with, because I did in university were like, you need to lose weight again, like watching [00:54:30] America’s Next Top Model was so triggering for me. Now with the new lens, because [00:54:35] those beauty standards like I wasn’t Kate Moss, I wasn’t, you know what I mean? They’d always make me feel [00:54:40] really like they would call me the exotic one, which now I feel like is a little bit derogatory in a way, because [00:54:45] I’m like, well, just because I had tan skin and like Middle Eastern features. So I am grateful [00:54:50] for the boom in social media and also the massive appreciation for different cultures [00:54:55] and different types of beauty. And I even went to like Diwali with L’Oreal. And [00:55:00] even though I’m not Asian, but it was so nice to see like the celebration of women of different [00:55:05] skin tones at something like that. So I think it’s been a really amazing movement [00:55:10] and has obviously also benefited your brand in a way, because people have recognised that [00:55:15] their needs are going to be different from someone else that’s always been advertised for.

Vanita Rattan: Yeah, I think [00:55:20] looking at my daughter now, she doesn’t have any of the same qualms that I had. Yeah, like [00:55:25] her mom is a skin of colour, like ambassador. Yeah. All she sees this kind of colour and she goes [00:55:30] to a beautiful, amazing school. But all the girls are also [00:55:35] Asian, so she doesn’t even like the thoughts that I would have.

Payman Langroudi: She doesn’t eat [00:55:40] generations different though. It’s totally different.

Vanita Rattan: It’s so.

Payman Langroudi: Lucky. It’s a really good side to it, which.

Vanita Rattan: Is. [00:55:45]

Rhona Eskander: A good side. Are you using pronouns?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, I don’t like pronouns.

Rhona Eskander: But are you using them now because [00:55:50] your kids use them? Sure. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do they know my kids? My kids? My kids go [00:55:55] to French school. French school is very, very, um, conservative in that sense.

Rhona Eskander: I want to I want to ask [00:56:00] doctor V as well because we are running out of time. Can you believe it feels like it’s been five minutes.

Vanita Rattan: I feel like we just [00:56:05] started. I was just getting into my stride.

Rhona Eskander: My question is what’s your darkest moment [00:56:10] in business been?

Vanita Rattan: My darkest moment in oh gosh, there’s so many. [00:56:15] Where do I start? Um, I think should we talk about like, [00:56:20] like having children and.

Rhona Eskander: Doing it can be a case of what is your darkest moments? [00:56:25] Not in business and life. What has it been in life?

Vanita Rattan: I think probably [00:56:30] something I haven’t really spoken about. And that was having a miscarriage. And [00:56:35] that was after Sienna and before Josh and [00:56:40] it happened in clinic. So I remember it happening. I had a whole [00:56:45] list of patients that day, um, at the hypertension clinic. And you can’t cancel. [00:56:50] And there’s nothing I could do. Like whether I lie in bed at home or [00:56:55] I go to work. Like wasn’t going to make any difference. And so I remember just [00:57:00] sitting in the clinic chair and like, I had my sanitary towel, like multiple [00:57:05] and just having to just get through and everything’s cramping. And anyone that’s been through a miscarriage knows [00:57:10] how painful it is.

Payman Langroudi: You knew what was happening.

Vanita Rattan: I knew what was happening.

Rhona Eskander: And I think it’s really sad because [00:57:15] I’ve been very vocal in my first miscarriage. Uh, well, my miscarriage also [00:57:20] had happened. I didn’t know when it was going to happen. They knew what was going to happen within the week. And I actually went to go see my sister in [00:57:25] Paris. And I got really ill and I was vomiting and I went to A&E and they thought it was food poisoning. [00:57:30] But in hindsight, I really don’t think it was because me and my sister ate exactly the same thing. And then two days in clinic and [00:57:35] I remember having to get through the consultation. And I think that’s because, and I honestly said it was [00:57:40] one of the worst experiences of my entire life. Like, I felt like I was dying and I had to get an Uber [00:57:45] home. And I remember trying to grab my phone in the bathroom to call my partner because I was [00:57:50] like, oh my God, this is unbearable. And no one talks about it. And it’s like, and it’s like we’re [00:57:55] expected to just get on with it. So I totally relate to that.

Vanita Rattan: I don’t think people realise 1 in 4 pregnancies [00:58:00] lead to miscarriage, 1 in 4. That means that if you get pregnant 3 [00:58:05] or 4 times like you’re, most women at some point are likely [00:58:10] to have a miscarriage.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How far gone were you before?

Vanita Rattan: So it was within the first six weeks. [00:58:15] So it was like pain, but it was like managed like I could [00:58:20] do it by myself. It wasn’t like I had to go to hospital. Um. Um.

Payman Langroudi: How old were.

Vanita Rattan: You? Yeah.

Rhona Eskander: I [00:58:25] was like 7 or 8 weeks and I was also I didn’t have to go to hospital, but I was, I thought I was [00:58:30] dying. That’s how I felt like I, I called my dad up because he’s a gynaecologist. And I was like, do I need to call an ambulance? [00:58:35] It was that bad. And it went on for like hours. I don’t know how long yours went or the pain was terrible.

Vanita Rattan: It was like the whole day. [00:58:40] And I was like talking to patients. I remember them talking to me about the pigmentation and I’m like, blacking out. Yeah, I remember sweating. [00:58:45] And just in hindsight, it’s actually so silly that I didn’t cancel and that I didn’t just stay [00:58:50] in bed. Yeah. It’s actually like, what is wrong with me that I, but.

Rhona Eskander: I think that is the medical part of us. [00:58:55] Yeah, but no, but I think it’s the medical part. I think lots of doctors and dentists struggle to cancel on their patients. [00:59:00] I feel like I cannot let patients down even now. I can’t I the [00:59:05] day I went into an emergency c section, I’d done a full day at work. No. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, let me ask you that. [00:59:10] When you say people don’t talk about it, is it that people don’t like your friends, don’t [00:59:15] tell you if they’ve had a miscarriage or.

Rhona Eskander: No, I think we don’t talk.

Payman Langroudi: About how.

Rhona Eskander: Difficult.

Payman Langroudi: The actual the.

Rhona Eskander: Actual [00:59:20] feeling. I think also it’s the expectations that women are expected to give birth. [00:59:25] Women are expected to fall pregnant, like just deal with it. And all the complications around getting pregnant, [00:59:30] staying pregnant and giving birth are so highly complicated and even the hormonal [00:59:35] aspect of it. So I did want to ask you as well, like, did you have any kind of hormonal [00:59:40] challenges running the business with your kids, anything like that?

Vanita Rattan: I wouldn’t [00:59:45] even know. Like, you know, it’s a bit of a blur. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you’re.

Payman Langroudi: You.

Vanita Rattan: Do you know what I [00:59:50] mean? You’re like at war.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: You’ve got to get things done. And but I feel like I’ve attacked my whole [00:59:55] life. Like it’s a war. Like everything is like we need to get this done, need to get this thing done. It’s, um, [01:00:00] I haven’t really approached anything relaxed and calm and worrying [01:00:05] about what’s happening in my body. It’s very much like we need to get X, Y, and z done now for the first time [01:00:10] at 42, my body is saying, no, you’re going to listen to me. And the palpitations was like the [01:00:15] first sign for me that you wanted.

Rhona Eskander: To slow.

Vanita Rattan: Down, have to listen to your body and you can’t run [01:00:20] your life like you did in your 20s and your 30s. You cannot be like this in your 40s. Yeah, [01:00:25] you have to slow down. You have to listen to your body. You have to do what’s good for you. I wouldn’t even like the question [01:00:30] you’re asking about hormones. I wouldn’t even know. Honestly, it was just a just a blur.

Rhona Eskander: You were just on autopilot.

Vanita Rattan: Autopilot. [01:00:35] It was like, get through it, get through it, get through it. Like next day, next day, you know, like.

Payman Langroudi: Do you know guys? Do you know people, [01:00:40] friends of yours who’ve had multiple miscarriages?

Rhona Eskander: Yes I do. And they say that it’s like so [01:00:45] traumatic. And you can see that it’s drained them because you know what? It’s like your hormones take a while to [01:00:50] kind of like gain and you do so psychologically. Yeah. Psychologically, it’s.

Payman Langroudi: Just sometimes sometimes [01:00:55] it’s, you know, late term. Yeah. Yeah. Giving birth to.

Rhona Eskander: It. I mean, I’ve, I had a patient of mine, she [01:01:00] gave birth to two twins that weren’t alive. Like they basically told her the pregnancy became [01:01:05] non-viable and she was like 7 or 8 months pregnant. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like going [01:01:10] through a birth.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah. So, you.

Vanita Rattan: Know, work helped. So I went back to work, I think when, [01:01:15] when my kids were a month old, like straight away. Yeah. And I remember my dad telling me [01:01:20] I was getting really depressed and low at home.

Rhona Eskander: And this was with ace, right?

Vanita Rattan: With, um, so [01:01:25] with both. So I went back to the clinic. Yeah. So, um, even with, yeah, even [01:01:30] the, uh, the clinics were starting with Sienna. So I remember feeling low and my dad saying, [01:01:35] you, you are, this is not for you. Like you can’t be this like stay at home mum like you [01:01:40] are. I was getting so depressed. And again, I don’t think this is normal, Rona. I don’t know if other women [01:01:45] get so low.

Rhona Eskander: Like I find I find it hard. Like I couldn’t not. I’m constantly working. Yeah. [01:01:50] And people ask me all the time, but I have I’ve taken that position. I do think there’s a difference between [01:01:55] treating actual patients and then running a business. And I’ve now gone into more of [01:02:00] running the business mode, whereas like I focus on my patients for two days clinically, and now [01:02:05] I’m micromanaging the business because now I have a clear idea of where I want the business to go and what [01:02:10] I want to do.

Payman Langroudi: You must resonate with that idea of working in it or working on it, right? [01:02:15]

Vanita Rattan: Uh, yes. So when I was working in it, like with the clinics, um, it [01:02:20] was like it, it’s very hard to strategize. It’s very [01:02:25] hard. It’s a two, two different brains and you it’s.

Rhona Eskander: And working with patients.

Vanita Rattan: Working with patients, [01:02:30] you’re in it, right. You can’t. Now my whole world is working on it. I don’t work [01:02:35] in it anymore. Because if you think like, for me to go to the lab and make something that takes me two [01:02:40] hours, and I can do that once a month, and that’s a lot. Like, I’ve got so many formulas that we haven’t [01:02:45] even ever made. I’m like, make my own foundation just for myself. Like there’s so many formulas that [01:02:50] I have that never even came to market. That is the easy bit. Then after that, [01:02:55] for me, really, it’s like the media company part of it, which is like making as much content as possible.

Rhona Eskander: Like TikTok, [01:03:00] YouTube, Instagram.

Vanita Rattan: Everything. So that’s a whole world. I’ve got two different teams that are filming [01:03:05] for that. Then it’s the launching products. So launching products, [01:03:10] we’ve got a contract manufacturer who also fulfils our products. So that bit’s [01:03:15] also outsourced. Um, and now it’s the B2B, so now it’s, we’re launching the world’s first facial for [01:03:20] skin of colour. Right. How are we going to do this? We’re going. Yes. I can’t wait for you to get it [01:03:25] done. Um, but yeah, so this is now the next part of the business is working on [01:03:30] the business. How do we get into 1000 clinics. That’s my aim to make sure that we have the [01:03:35] best, safest facial for brown and black skin in the UK and us.

Rhona Eskander: And you’re going to basically work with [01:03:40] clinics like aesthetic clinics and things like that. Yes. So I am so excited. I feel like [01:03:45] we need like version two. I’m not even done here, you know, but we have run out [01:03:50] of time.

Payman Langroudi: Let me ask one final question.

Rhona Eskander: Go on then. Go on.

Payman Langroudi: So look, the the downside [01:03:55] of being you.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Good question. Is it that you can’t switch off [01:04:00] and you can’t relax and this sort of thing.

Vanita Rattan: Yes. So I’m getting coached at the moment. I’m getting [01:04:05] coaching to figure out what parts of my personality I’m missing. And I think the biggest [01:04:10] part that’s missing right now is the caregiver part to myself. I’ve always looked at caregiving [01:04:15] as a weakness, and actually anyone that’s been caring to themselves or caring to others, I’ve. I’ve [01:04:20] not looked at that in a positive light. I’ve. I’ve always been. Everything’s mission and everything [01:04:25] is a war.

Rhona Eskander: Did your parents do that to you?

Vanita Rattan: Yeah. They they actually regret it now. Yeah. [01:04:30] Now they’re like, we’re so sorry we turned you into the person that you are today. And I’m like, there’s [01:04:35] nothing I could do with that information. No.

Rhona Eskander: You’re amazing. You are.

Payman Langroudi: Amazing. This [01:04:40] came up in my other podcast. Do you know about, you know about Eureka, right?

Vanita Rattan: Eureka.

Payman Langroudi: Archimedes [01:04:45] principle. Yes. Yes. Yes. Liquid displacement. Yeah. And he he his. He couldn’t figure it out. [01:04:50] Whether this this crown is gold. Yeah. And then his wife said, look, take a break. Take [01:04:55] a bath. Yeah. And then he dropped it in the bath. The water displaced. He ran through the city [01:05:00] naked saying Eureka. Yeah. The point of the story is the the wife saying, [01:05:05] take a break.

Vanita Rattan: That’s my husband always telling me to take a break.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but but, you know, just [01:05:10] frame it for yourself in that strategic sense.

Rhona Eskander: I know, but I.

Payman Langroudi: Will be the breakthrough.

Rhona Eskander: I’ll tell [01:05:15] you one strategic sense I do have.

Payman Langroudi: You’re so you’re so driven by that strategic sense.

Rhona Eskander: You’re right. I do have [01:05:20] a friend that’s I have lots of friends that are entrepreneurs. Payman is always enamoured when I bring all my guests on [01:05:25] here that I choose. But I have, I do have, I do have another friend of mine runs an incredible [01:05:30] company. Uh, she, she had a department store that was inherited from her mum and whatever. And [01:05:35] she stepped back from that when her mum passed away. And she started this company where she detoxes [01:05:40] wardrobes and she does it for very high net worth individuals. Rearranges the wardrobes. And then she also then [01:05:45] will take the stuff that they don’t want anymore, and then also like resale them. And she’s become incredibly [01:05:50] popular because it’s something that people need, like busy people like us and it’s a massive detox. And [01:05:55] she said she’s always busy and she’s finding it difficult to scale at the moment. And I said to her, what do you want to do? And she’s like, I’m going [01:06:00] to go to Ibiza for a month. I’ve never done it. And I said, why? And she goes, I need to be bored to get creative again [01:06:05] and come up with solutions. She’s like, because I am so busy every day, I’ve not got anything. [01:06:10] She was like, you know, like, I need to start getting creative again. She’s like, I need to be [01:06:15] still and do nothing. And I was like, there is something in that. And especially with the way that we are on social media, [01:06:20] you feel like if you’re not posting every second, every day, you’re missing out on [01:06:25] the Allgau and all this stuff and you’ll be forgotten. But I think the internet can do without you for a few days. It’ll be.

Vanita Rattan: Fine. I [01:06:30] actually have the best ideas on holiday. Yeah, always.

Rhona Eskander: Yeah.

Vanita Rattan: That’s why you never stop working, even on holiday. [01:06:35] Yeah. Let’s do this. And my husband’s like, will you just stop? Just stop. Yeah [01:06:40] yeah yeah.

Rhona Eskander: No, I love that. Thank you so much doctor V thank you. And for those of you that want to [01:06:45] follow her she is on social media. Her account is brilliant doctor Vanita [01:06:50] rattan. Yeah. Uh her products are amazing. I use them during pregnancy because I obviously couldn’t find [01:06:55] anything in pregnancy that was good for my skin. And I’m not saying that because I’ve been paid or anything, [01:07:00] it’s because I genuinely love the product. And I think she is an absolute powerhouse and boss. We probably will need [01:07:05] to have her on again. Thank you, thank you, thank.

{ALL}: You so much.