I think giving them a plan and direction and letting them understand your journey and making sure they believe in that journey as well is really important in making sure that people you’re attracting the right kind of people to come and work for you. I mean, there’s still politics that you have to deal with all the time. And, you know, getting people to understand that, you know, we don’t all have to be friends, but we have to like each other, but we all have to learn to work together in order for this to work.

This is Mind Movers. Moving the conversation forward on mental health and optimisation for dental professionals. Your hosts, Rhona Eskander and Payman Langroudi.

Hello. Hello. So I am super excited because we are going to be talking to an incredible guest today. Maria. Maria is somebody that I had the pleasure of meeting when I got really interested in cryotherapy. So we all know that ice baths have been the hype. Everyone has to post it on social media, but I’m going to give you a little bit of background about Maria. Maria is one of the UK’s leading wellness practitioners who has pioneered a range of treatments and therapies in London since 2016. She’s a mother of two, as well as a health and fitness enthusiast who has completed five marathons and is training for her sixth, seventh, eighth. I’ve done six looking at number seven. Okay, amazing. And she’s also trying to keep up her fitness routine. However, she noticed that she wasn’t recovering as quickly as before and was more susceptible to her injury as she waved her goodbyes to her 30s. You look fantastic, Maria. I have to say. So whilst Maria was visiting New York City, she gave whole body cryotherapy a try and found it to have a number of physical benefits, including quick recovery from training. And it made her feel clear-headed and happy. And that is when London Cryo was born. So she created an amazing what I call a clinic, or would I call it a faculty or what would you call it? Would you call sort of the cryotherapy branches?

We call them wellness centres.

Wellness centres. I love that. And you also were in a corporate job which you left and dedicated your full time to health and wellness. And one of the big reasons why I wanted you to come on is because you took that massive leap into something that was unpredictable, almost, you know, going down that whole entrepreneurial route, but dedicating time to your mental health and giving that to others. So welcome, Maria.

Thank you very much. That’s a wonderful introduction. Thank you.

Perfect. So, Maria, tell us a little bit about your background. What job were you doing before you embarked on London Cryo? Sure.

So I was an accountant and I was always passionate about health and wellness and just saw when I was training, as you had mentioned, that as I was getting older, I was getting more susceptible to injuries and just thought it was time to step into the wellness space.

Maria, I wanted to ask you, though, do you think I mean, you talk about your physical injuries that were happening, but do you think that also subconsciously there was something going on with your mental health and your mind that also pushed you into this trajectory, wanting to leave the corporate world?

Of course, I was trying to juggle being an accountant as well as being a mother of two, and it was quite a stressful time trying to juggle both. I mean, I live in the UK without my family who are all back in Australia, so trying to juggle everything was actually did take a strain on me mentally. So when there was an opportunity to go into the wellness space and create something that would also I would benefit from mentally, then it was just a no brainer to take that that risk.

Maria, tell me tell me about the, you know, the difference between when you’ve got a job, the paycheque comes in every month. Yes. You know what’s expected of you. It’s similar every month. And then the leap into owning your own business. What was the the thing that made you finally decide to take the plunge and not stay in your sort of comfort zone of your job?

I believe so much greatness can come from stepping out of your comfort zone, but you have to have a belief in yourself and be passionate about what you’re going to do next. So I believe that as long as you have that passion, then it’s worth taking the risk. And my journey over the last six years has just been phenomenal and a testament to that. So it was well worth taking the risk to step into to the place I am now. And this do a lot of times where I think, Oh God, did I do the right thing? You’re always worrying about tomorrow. But, but because I believe in what I’m doing and I see the benefit not only on myself, but to to Londoners, it’s just it’s worth, you know, continuing to hustle every day to keep achieving what we’re achieving.

And so as an as an accountant, you sort of understood the sort of cash flow situation a bit better than most, right? Of course. So did you start then saving for the project? Were you thinking that way? Did it take time, like between the time that you decided to do it and the time that you actually jumped in and opened your first centre? Yeah. Were you preparing properly for that? Because most of us.

Yeah, no, I know.

Tell us your secret.

It was, it was.

Having amazing support behind me. So I do have a partner who is unbelievable and also believed in the project. So we had some savings and thought, actually, let’s take this risk. You know, you’ve got a certain amount of money when you work hard and then you save, save your money, then you can afford to take this opportunity. So we did have a little bit of backing behind us to take this risk and get us through at least the first 12 months.

And then did did you stick to the business plan as far as the income and expenditure?

Important to do that. So and as an accountant, you understand that that’s what you have to do. You’ve got a budget and you have to stick to it.

I don’t know about you.

Well.

Let’s let’s delve into that a little bit easier. So tell me, what did your what would you say if you could speak broadly speaking, a business plan should consist of maybe five points important things.

It definitely needs to include your vision and then the steps on how to get through the first 12 months. You need to have a cash flow projection for the first 12 months. That’s really important. Have an understanding of what your outgoings are going to be and how you’re going to cover those for the first for the first 12 months. I think that’s the first place where you how.

Do you decide how many treatments a week you’re going to be doing? Because you need to project that.

I know, I know.

So you had no idea was it going to be five treatments a day or one treatment a day? You had to. Are you ultra pessimistic at that point?

We were a little bit optimistic, to be honest. And we thought, especially when you’re pricing your first session of cryo at £90 a session and you’re thinking, okay, I need to at least have like 2 or 300 people coming in in the, you know, in the first month. Mind you, we didn’t have that in the first month. It was it was a lot of days of having no one come in because we were still trying to establish the brand and as well the awareness of the treatment of cryotherapy because it was still unknown in the UK market. And I think we’ve made amazing inroads in the last six years. But you know, having we were a bit optimistic with our projections and thought, okay, we’re going to charge £90 a session, we’re going to have X amount of people coming in, so we’ll be okay to get us through. It didn’t work out that way. So it’s like you have the savings and the plan to get you through that period.

And how about from the sort of awareness marketing perspective? Because as the first. Yeah. What did you do? Did you, did you start spending on marketing? Was it social media? Did you get famous influencers or whatever?

How did you do it?

So, so.

I’m a big fan of Instagram. So, so we did have a bit of a social media plan. I come from accounting, not from marketing, so I didn’t understand how important marketing was, didn’t put much into the website and stuff. So it didn’t understand like, I mean, it’s improved since then because you understand so much was missing. In order for people to understand what we were doing, they were landing on a page, for example, with a picture of London at first, and it’s like, actually that doesn’t tell people what we’re doing about cryotherapy. So obviously you learn as you go. But at the beginning of the journey it was a lot of trying to get into corporates to try and promote our services and get to educate people about cryotherapy and who we can help and our vision as well. So there was a lot of, you know, road, you know, road shows at the beginning of our journey. And then from that, from that we also had a few influencers, not many. So but the people that we did have were enough to help us start creating a social media presence.

Did you go after them or did they happen to come to you?

Can I be totally honest? I sat in my hairdresser’s chair the day before we opened and I thought, How is anyone even going to know? I opened up this business. I didn’t understand all the marketing that should have been done prior to opening. And he said, I’m going to give you these my five contacts. You contact them and say, I’ve sent you, get them in, and then they’ll post and you post. And that’s how that journey started. And then I think because I might have had the right few people, they all didn’t say yes, only a few did. But then because it was starting to become a bit active on our social media page and what we were doing was niche in the UK market, we was getting into the right feeds of the right people. So then, you know, we were we were lucky enough that people were contacting us saying, Hey, could we come in, could we use the services, can we collaborate? And that’s what started that journey. And even with regards to to, you know, magazines and other publications, they were saying, hey, you know, you’re doing something that no one else is doing. Can we come in and do a feature? So I was very lucky with that respect.

And did you hire a PR company?

No.

No. It’s really.

Interesting. She had was.

Was was one of her original.

Well, that’s how I actually met Maria. We had we we interviewed was as well, but also was about the kind of like fitness space. Um, but.

It’s really interesting the question of what would have happened if Maria didn’t have that conversation with that hairdresser. I know there’s one aspect of it that says a successful person will always have those conversations.

But you don’t.

Ask, you don’t get that’s my that’s my life.

Motto.

But you’re very sort of that way driven. You’re marketing person, you know, loads of people as an accountant, as an accountant. And this applies to dental practices, right? You open a squat, we call it a squat, which is a dental.

Practice, which I pretty.

Much did with Chelsea Dental. You remember this?

A practice there, but yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was, it wasn’t, it wasn’t what it is now.

No, but it was seeing one patient a month and I literally Payman was one of the first people I called and I said, Do you think I should work here? He goes, You’ve lost your bloody mind. Why would you go there? There’s not a single patient.

I look at you now. Yeah, but.

I said to him. But to me it’s less of a risk because if I open up a squat and it doesn’t work, I’ve spent money on squat. If I make a practice work as an associate, I don’t have the overhead. So it’s not really a loss, you know? Fine. It was a loss of income, but it was like you. I say it was the three I’s for me. Instagram influencers. And there was an inside.

No, no.

It was Instagram influencers and Invisalign. The three I’s that made me successful. It’s amazing. And that’s what kind of, you know, created that.

That was a dental practice because it was a brand new idea in London. Yeah, It takes me back to when we started Enlighten. Light activated teeth whitening didn’t exist and it was a brand new idea. There’s some novelty in it, so you get some of those early adopter types. But I can imagine if it was myself, you know, I’m not like Rona, I’m not I’m not out there. And no loads of people. I’d sort of set up this place, probably do what you did and don’t pre-market. You’re sitting in this beautiful shop thinking, What now? Yeah.

That’s what it.

Was. So did you leaflet drop or something?

Well, of course we’ve done all that now. So, you know, I had some of my team, I only had two of us that were working at the time and and we would go out to Liverpool Street Station and hand out the brochures and stuff. Brochures? Yeah.

Remember the days of brochures?

Oh, I’m still a big believer in brochures, right? So I still think we need to have brochures and people still need to get out and do local marketing. I think that’s really important. I still believe in leaflet drops and stuff because if people are not searching cryotherapy, they’re not going to find me. So yeah, yeah. So it’s all about the awareness and dropping leaflets off and being, you know, in magazines and stuff. So and like I said, I was lucky enough I didn’t need to pay for PR initially. We didn’t have the budget for it and I didn’t know I needed to put that in the budget, to be honest. So I didn’t need that. But because it was so niche that, you know, these people were coming to me. And then I was lucky enough to, you know, you know, there was a big football show that was on and they came in and they recorded and got amazing exposure through that. The Russell Howard Show. He came in and did a segment.

All these people.

They contacted me. Right. So so you.

Said you got into it. You told me before you got into it because you listened to a podcast, correct. So I guess others had listened to podcasts as well. Yes. And so there was that element.

There was, of course, it definitely inspired, you know, cryotherapy, I need to try this. I’m training for a marathon. So, you know, going over to New York where I did the marathon, there’s thousands of cryotherapy wellness centres. So I went along and tried it, fell in love with it, understood the benefits. And so that also plays a part in, you know, having belief in what you’re doing and the passion. So you can come back and then say, Hey, there’s an opportunity here, let’s try and create something. And here we are almost 30 years later.

Now that you’ve got loads of competitors. Yes, it’s a slightly different thing, isn’t it? Because before it was this is where you come for cryotherapy. There isn’t anyone else now. There’s many different brands. You see them.

They’re still not London Cryo, though.

I know. So. So now it becomes like a differentiation story.

Yes.

So what would you say is the sort of the USP of London cryo compared to another cryo place?

I think our customer service, our our knowledge and expertise in what we do doesn’t compare to anyone. So and I’m all for the competition. I think it’s healthy. There’s enough of us in the market and the more people that are doing it, even if it’s elsewhere, the more the market knows about cryotherapy. I still think I always say this, I still think not enough people know about what we’re doing. And it’s not just about establishing the brand of London cryo. It’s also about, you know, cryotherapy itself. A lot of people still say, Oh, what is that?

Well, this is the thing I was going to say because I don’t think everyone knows about cryotherapy, Correct? I know that. So let’s talk a little bit about that, because it’s very much linked to mental health. Have you done an ice bath before? I feel like you’d never do that.

Yes. Cold shower.

Do you actually do it? Okay. So what is the science, the thinking behind ice therapy, cold therapy, etcetera, and how does it improve your mental health and physical health?

Okay. So with being exposed to the cold, especially when you’re doing cryotherapy, it triggers a thing called fight or flight mode. Okay. So you’re in the cryo cabin, you’re in there for a really cold 2 to 3 minutes. And what happens is the brain sends a message to your internal organs saying, oh my God, it’s freezing. So all the blood rushes to your core to go into protective mode. And so you’re freezing in there for a couple of minutes. Whilst it’s in there, the blood gets oxygenated, you replenish nutrients, flush out toxins. And so then when you step out of the cabin because you think, okay, I’ve survived this or that, oxygenated blood goes to areas where you’ve got muscle soreness or any inflammation. And what it also does is it can boost collagen cryotherapy. Benefits are cumulative. So you need to do like we recommend ten sessions and then your body starts to, you know, the internal doctor in us awakens and you start to get the benefits. It lowers your cortisol levels so people feel less stressed. But. People who are training for events, it helps to speed up their, you know, their recovery and they get out and do better performance and performances as well.

So question though, what is better, a cold ice bath or plunging in cold water or cryotherapy and why?

I’m always.

Going to say.

Cryotherapy because it’s a quick.

Two minute. It’s the alternative to a to an ice bath. And to get the benefits with an ice bath, it’s more about, you know, if you’ve got an injury. So you’re trying to, you know, to heal the area. It doesn’t do the internal benefits of what Cryotherapy does because, you know, the research inside and science shows you need to heat -110 or colder to trigger the fight or flight mode to get the cryotherapy benefits. You’re not going to get that in an ice bath. You’re going to feel amazing, feel awaken, which is all beneficial, but you’re not going to get the benefits of cryotherapy doing it that way. You need to describe it.

For someone who’s never seen it before. Describe what is it? How does it.

So what it is, is like, you know how you’ve got the sauna bed’s not a good example, right? So it’s one of those tubes and it’s standing up. This is the way London Cryo does it. You step onto the platform, Your head is outside the cabin with us. Yes. Because that way you can communicate and you.

Can communicate with the client.

Where you’re fully encased. Right. Where your head’s in it as well.

Correct? Right. And that’s called a chamber. So you can step into that. But but I feel like the way we do it, it’s really important, especially because a lot of people are scared to try cryotherapy for the first time because, oh, my God, it’s freezing. But we’re with you the whole time. So when you’re standing in there and you can communicate with us and we can just gauge how you’re feeling and get you through your first two minutes.

So what’s the initial initial challenge? Because with a cold shower, I found the initial challenge is almost like a breathing thing. Yeah, it is. But but also with the cold shower, I always thought your head was quite an important place to get cold. Is that not.

Correct?

Your cold receptors are all above the on the top half of your body. Right. So as long as you’re exposing the top part of your body, then then you’re going to get the benefits of the cold.

Go through it. What happens? Someone goes in, so you go in the ones who hate it, what is it they hate and how soon do they come out?

I think it’s more mind over matter, if I’m totally honest. Right? So once you’re in the cabin and I have an amazing team that talk you through the experience, you get onto the platform, we press the button and all that cold vapour comes out. But because you’re in there for such a short period of time and we’re quite engaging, we have great music playing, then you get through your 2 to 3 minutes of cryotherapy.

So everyone manages 2 to 3 minutes. Every time they try it.

Two minutes everybody manages and the door’s not locked. So if anyone ever says to me, you know, Oh, this is too much, we just open the door and get you out, It’s like it’s not a problem, Right?

So but also, I think that’s an important point to note. So what I found is with mental health, because this is something that I practice frequently, going to London Cryo, it’s kind of my little safe haven. When I was really good, I was going twice a week, but I tried to go once a week and I tell you what I do is, which again, I’m going to talk to Marie about. I do hot and cold. So there’s now science with hot and cold therapy. So that would be a red light therapy sauna. Then you go into the cryo, not the other way around. Not the other way around. Not, I know, but not the other way around. And Maria can explain the science behind that.

Doubly difficult, right, Because you’re hot now.

But you.

Know what? It’s amazing because I treat my sessions as London cryo because what I do is I don’t tend to just go into the cryo chamber because that’s only three minutes, spend like a good hour there or longer. So for example, they have the oxygen chambers as well. So I don’t know. There’s massive benefits to that. I don’t know if you know that as well, which again, we’ll talk to Maria about and I will spend time there. So it’s almost like that whole self love thing that we’re talking about, dedicating time to just doing something for your mind and your body. But for me, I just think it is the whole mind over matter because it’s that whole thing. If I put myself in discomfort on purpose, I become resilient and I feel a sense of achievement. And as we’ve talked several times, people in this world are continuously avoiding discomfort because we don’t want to feel we’re numbing it. Go away. So if we’re on purpose, making ourselves uncomfortable, that builds up that resilience.

You find at some point later on in the week you’re having a stressful Dental situation. Yeah. That you’re more resilient to even that because you’ve been through this?

I don’t think so, but I think it helps me de-stress because I naturally have anxiety. So if I feel anxious sometimes I’ll text the girls at London, cry and say, Can you just quickly book me in for a session? Because then that will de-stress me. It’s almost like it just alleviates the sort of yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, it’s been really amazing. But let’s go to the science as well because I’m really interested in that. So what is the benefit of hot cold therapy and what why do you have to do it that way round?

Well, you have to.

We recommend that you do it that way round. Fine. As long as you’re not intending to go to bed after you’ve done the two sessions. Because if you. You cry, then you’re obviously going to stay awake and alert. But it’s important to do the hot treatment first, and that helps you to detox the body. And that’s what the great thing is about the infrared sauna and also doing the red light treatment. So, yes, if you do that, that’s a different treatment. And that’s just all about the red light penetrating the skin and recharging all the mitochondria in our cells. So that’s an amazing treatment as well to do just before you do cryotherapy. But the infrared sauna is all about detoxing, but that’s also very challenging for people as well. So I find.

That more challenging. I find I find my sauna is quite stressful.

Yeah.

The breathing part.

Of it, it’s just a lot.

Different. No, this is different. So this is the solar panels, that’s what. Yeah. Yeah. The solar panels do do all the heating. And so you start sweating it out. It’s not a breathing. It’s different to the traditional. It’s a different to the traditional sauna. Normally it’s.

A burns your nose and you’re.

No different. It’s different. Yeah.

You’ve got to try it. It’s in Saint John’s Wood.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. He knows that.

My parents live on the same street.

Oh, you’re saying amazing.

And then it’s important to do cryo afterwards. Like you have a little bit of a break, make sure you’re completely dry, and then you do cryo. And it’s important to do it that way around because the benefits of to to you physically last for the next three hours after doing a cryotherapy session. So you don’t want to be doing cryo first and yeah. And then going to you know, being have a negative effect by doing the sauna. So that’s why you finish on cryo. It also gives you a burst of energy so that you can continue on with your day. So we do recommend doing, you know, the hot first and then going into the cold.

So talk to us about the oxygen because oxygen. Have you ever done this? No.

So so go on.

Go into a one of our hyperbaric oxygen chambers. And whilst you’re in there, you breathe in. You have a mask that’s attached to our oxygen unit. Yeah. Tank And. And you breathe in 550% more oxygen in a one hour session. And what that helps to do is accelerate any recovery and repairs. So if you’re injured or, you know, a lot of people who are still suffering from long Covid will come in and they’ll get fresh, fresh oxygen into their lungs and it will help them to become better because it goes into your plasma and then all the benefits come from.

Do you also feel better or.

No, You don’t feel.

Any You don’t.

Feel anything. Instantly.

It’s like that.

It happens at a cellular level. So you can’t come out thinking, okay, I feel great. But we do know we’re getting feedback from clients who are now doing up to their 2030 sessions and they can find they’ve got mental clarity now and having a bit more energy. So it does take doing it quite a few times to get the benefit right.

There’s a risk isn’t there, in, in when you’ve got a wellness centre. Yes. There’s a risk of taking on the next sort of fashionable thing.

Yes.

What do you do as far as you know understanding whether the next thing.

Investing.

Well the next the next thing really is beneficial. You know I’m in business, right? So businesses will come to you and say, look, we’ve got this purple light therapy that helps with whatever. Yeah. How much research do you do? Or do you have a medical director or how do you handle this?

No, we stick to being just a wellness centre. We don’t go the medical route. So for me, I’m inspired a lot by what happens in the US. So I find that if they’re doing something like our original vision was just going to be three cryo chambers and people just coming in and out and stuff. But then we realised after being in business for a little while, actually people just don’t want to be in and out, they want more than that. And that’s where we started adding was saying, Yeah, that’s why we started adding the other treatments, you know, And people found it as, as a place where they could come and just be, you know, like, like a safe place that they could come and spend time, look after themselves, recharge, have some self-love. So so we added all these complimentary treatments. And because I’m inspired by the US, we would try what they were doing first. And if I felt the benefits, then we would introduce it into London cryo because you have to believe in it in order to be able to, you know, to allow anyone else to be part of that treatment.

So do you know what’s.

Interesting, though, as well? So I actually have a friend who Payman knows who created a dental clinic that basically integrates some of the therapies that you have, Miguel, Stanley, Miguel, the White Clinic. And it was very innovative for its time. But they even go as far as to do kind of genetic testing and blood tests. And I think it’s really interesting because there’s such a holistic approach to dentistry, which is completely undervalued or it’s an oversight really, you know, because a lot of our oral microbiome, they found as well as as complex as the gut microbiome. And if you go to looking at treating the oral microbiome, you can actually help lots of diseases. So it’s quite an interesting approach. And they do the hyperbaric oxygen as well. And I’m sure that you know this as well. So a lot of medical professionals do a lot of Botox and fillers, etcetera. And fillers are known complication as vascular occlusion. And did you know that one of the treatment modalities is hyperbaric oxygen? So it’s something that if you have an occlusion, so i.e. know a blood. Arsehole gets blocked. The treatment is they’d have to find a place where someone does the hyperbaric oxygen to the patient can be treated to get the blood flowing again.

Serena, we were talking before you got here about IV treatments, but they also this is and I’d like your opinion. Maria was saying that in the US, it’s very, very popular.

Of course it is.

And Dubai And.

Dubai. Yeah, but. But she was saying that in the UK or we we were postulating is it that we don’t like sticking needles. I mean how come you’ve had all the other treatments and you haven’t had.

Well I think it’s because to be honest the.

Pain, what it is.

The dent. So with the IV drips as we know, where whenever someone has a deficiency or wants to feel sort of more energised or, you know, feels they’re lacking in something, they can have a vitamin infusion of a sort, a cocktail, a mixture of drugs. But the idea is, is because it’s given intravenously, it travels to the blood quicker. Correct. Now, I have to say, I am so all for holistic treatment. I need to do some more research. But there have been some medical professionals that have claimed it’s pseudoscience, including a nutritionist, that I follow on Instagram. And I think the idea is, is that you really should be able to get most of the stuff from your food and nutrients. But the reality is a lot of people don’t. And also it’s that the way that the the amount is delivered, your body can’t absorb it all anyway. Does that make sense? And this was particularly for vitamin C because everyone got obsessed with vitamin C drips during Covid. I don’t know if you remember this. Yeah. And then my dad, who’s a doctor, was like, It’s impossible for your body to absorb more than X amount of vitamin C in one go anyway. So you’re just going to basically we’re out, you know, like it’s going to be in your urine. So I think I need to do a little bit more research. I supplement loads, but I see an endocrinologist, so my endocrinologist, I’ve had a lot of hormonal problems and he’s put me on a lot of supplements.

He’s also a functional doctor as well as being an endocrinology list. And it’s amazing because a lot of my problems are being resolved now through his functional treatment and that’s through what the tests that he did. And they found a lot going on with my gut. And so so it was it’s been really interesting. And I’m like, of course there’s something there. But I think that’s the problem is that we have and this is my problem with Western and Eastern medicine as a whole. And again, this is why I think it affects mental health, because in Western medicine and the way that me and Payman were taught as dentists, you have a problem. This is your diagnosis. And then you give medication or treatment. But so often we’re treating the symptom, not the cause. And that’s particularly imminent in the NHS, which is why we end up fire fighting all the time with mental health. I have depression, take antidepressants, I have anxiety, take anti-anxiety attacks, I have bipolar, take medication for bipolar. But they don’t understand what the courts cause the diseases. And it’s funny because when I speak to my father about meditation, yoga, advancements and psychedelic medicine, all these different things, my dad’s a little bit, oh.

It’s rubbish.

You know, because he’s old school, you know. But actually if we integrate the two, the Western and the Eastern and we can see the way the Eastern world live, I think they have a high higher level of depression, anxiety. It’s because of those things that they do that lower level. So lower level. But I think it’s because as well they integrate those things into their life and nutrition matters, sleep matters, doing these things like meditation matters because that all heals us on some level.

I agree. If I can just say like that’s a really good example. What we say is like people will go to their GP once or twice a year. For example, they’ll come in to see us for their cryotherapy sessions three, four times a week, right? Because they know they’re getting the benefits. They know they’re going to be sleeping better. They know they know if they’re having their IVs, they feel like they’re going to be, you know, get their nutrition that way. So there there is that’s one of the big benefits we get of people that come into London because they’re going to.

Get those benefits.

Medical complaints that cryo really helps.

Autoimmune.

Diseases, autoimmune.

Diseases, which I have, by the way.

Yep, Yep. So it definitely helps with that. It helps insomniacs with their sleeping. So there are a lot of, you know, especially arthritis is a big one that we help people with because it comes as an analgesic. So they’re feeling less pain over a period of time.

So and what about what about the technology? The machines? Are there better ones and worse ones? And you said your ones are the head out ones.

They are.

That’s right.

So what are the what are the categories of of machines that you should look out for? If you go to a cryo centre, how do you know you’re getting in?

I would say.

As long as it’s the it’s more about as long as the team are qualified and you feel like you’re in a safe environment rather than how we’re doing it. I mean, that’s in the industry. We have a big issue about whether people do an electric or a nitrogen. I stay away from that argument. I’m a big believer in as long as you’re doing cryo, that’s all that matters, right? So you’re getting the. Benefits rather than. So as long as you feel like you’re in a clean, safe environment with qualified people carrying out the treatments, that’s what you need to look out for more than anything else.

Do you know how many crisis centres there are in the UK?

There must be at least 15 now.

That’s nothing. That’s nothing compared to the US.

They before Covid, they had like 5000. I think they’re down to about 3000. But there are a few companies that are just absolutely just exploding over in the US. But I think the English culture is a little bit different and that’s why it’s taking us a bit longer to catch up to anyone else.

So we’re very early, still.

Still very. We are.

Maria, I wanted to ask you, though, as well, the reason why that you embarked on this journey, as we said, is to leave a job that was incredibly stressful, to focus on a job that integrated mental health, wellness and physical health. However, you’re a business owner and you have many locations. Do you feel that sometimes your primary purpose, which was sought out wellness, is forgotten because the stresses of being a business owner and running a business take over?

This is so true.

Rona So yeah, no, it’s.

Very valid what you say. So, you know, people do say, you know, you want to get away from the 9 to 5 and stuff, but when you do go into business, it becomes 24 divided by seven. And not that I’m complaining because I actually love the journey that I’m on, but it is far more stressful now than it ever was when I was back doing a corporate job. But I know this is for me and I know what I’m creating for the London market. I know the people that we’re helping feel better every day. So it just keeps us going regardless of the stress that it does, you know, does play on me.

What do you what do you find the biggest challenge is? I mean, how many members of staff have you got now?

We’ve probably got 15 people that work for us now. Is that the.

Biggest challenge.

Or. Yeah, definitely staff.

But we’re just talking about that before you came.

In. But, but staffing going into business I knew was going to be my biggest issue. And, you know, we were saying putting things out into the universe, I feel like, you know, that’s come to fruition because staffing, I have an amazing team, but just not enough people. So I do, you know, constantly looking for more.

Sort of corporate structure wise. What have you got a manager at each site?

Yes, we do have.

A manager at each site and.

Operation.

Go to each site. Do you see each each shop every week? Do you go to every. I’m very.

Hands on. Still, I haven’t learned to let go.

So you can’t be like. I mean.

It’s early days. It’s early days. But we were talking about expansion, you know. You know.

How many sites do you have? Three.

We have three and we’re looking at another three now.

So so we were saying, you know, Maria comes from a finance background, as does her business partner and life partner. Yes. And when you come from a finance background, number one, you don’t make the massive mistakes that we made right at the beginning, overspending and under earning thing. You’re more cautious about that. Yes. But number two, they’re going for investment. Yeah.

And so you’re raising for this for these.

Next three, but.

Not traditionally. Like we just want like a white angel to come into the business rather than going venture capitalist.

Yeah, fine.

So so I was saying as as a business owner myself, right, we never raised any money. We got an initial bank loan of 60,000.

Yeah. That’s what we did with, with Paula was the same. Right. Like and now for our second round. But I think this might be useful because I often get asked, what is it? How do you go about raising money? You want to start a business, whether it’s even a dental practice.

Go ahead. Yeah, but like.

We were saying, like I was brought up different. We didn’t go out and do this seed capital raising. And so we don’t go that the new way, new age of doing it by going out to the market, trying to do crowdfunding. I’m still old school and you know, you go to the bank and you get a loan or, you know, you use your savings in order to start your business. It’s very different now.

I’m still old.

School Yesterday there one year old and they’ve got 52 employees, you know, venture backed. Yeah.

32. What is.

That? It’s a liner disruptor.

Okay.

Yeah. So and we were talking about the difference between being a venture backed company and a traditional company.

And what were the findings?

Well, you know, it’s just a different way of living, right? I don’t think they’re profitable yet. So for them, that’s the. The nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. But then at the same time, we’re now getting to 44 employees. 23 years later. Yeah. And on day one, she’s gone. Yeah. So, you know, to be a bigger, a bigger to play a bigger ticket sort of games. But do you think that becomes a part of it.

Do you think, though, when you do it the way that people are doing it now, you’re using other people’s money so you don’t have sometimes you don’t care as much as like if it’s.

Your own business?

I think they do care. But but there’s a there’s a difference in so much as Because money is plentiful. Yeah, you can you can.

Make those.

Decisions. You can throw money at problems instead of throwing solutions at the problem. And once you throw money at problems, you actually hide the problem and then the business. But then at the same time, I mean if you. To Sonia. She’s a Oxford graduate doctor who then went into consulting and superbrain in a clever person who’s aware of all of this. Yes. So, you know, of course there are pros and cons, but what my point to Maria was growing up in London, living in London, it’s incumbent on us to be fully aware of the investment situation. If we were sitting in, I don’t know Malaga, if that’s where we were born and raised, then okay, you’re not aware of finance and business. You could do it the way that I did it. But growing up in London, I’ve got friends in the city. I’ve got, you know, I’ve got all sorts of links to finance. And yet because I’m a dentist, dentist, I wasn’t even thinking that way. Now, dentists are thinking that way. Yes, of course. To open 300 practices, that sort of thing. Yeah. But back then I didn’t get.

The funding and just, you know, explode from day one.

Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, sometimes you see the quality drop when that happens.

Well, that’s the thing.

I think like the thing is, is that I’m really happy with the brand that I’ve created and but for me it’s also about.

Maintaining were 30.

Yeah, exactly.

30 of them. Would it be. Yeah.

The thing is you know I might open up another but it’s about the like I think I’m more but again it’s all about what your value is and what you perceive like. I think reputational success matters more to me in a way. Like if I’m a very face fronting person. So I want people to associate quality and care. And I think when you start going, like when you become the Starbucks or the McDonald’s and stuff like that, yeah, sure, you’re into the huge bucks, you know, but also the quality can dip and I don’t.

Well, it can, but if you walk into Louis Vuitton in.

Sydney, of course.

It’s the same experience as if you walk into Louis Vuitton in Bond Street. Yeah. So, so it doesn’t have to the quality doesn’t have to drop. No. Yeah. It’s not necessarily that the quality will drop, but then you do see it sometimes, you know.

But Payman but on that argument. Right but you know, you know the numbers and the stats that all of these big fashion companies, some of them are living in a constant debt and also they make much less money than Primark and the cheaper ones. Do you see what I mean?

That problem. But but.

Look, there are schnell, schnell.

Schnell, Schnell has that problem.

So so perfume do they.

But the thing is, Chanel. Chanel makes much less than Primark, something like that. You know, there’s a crazy. Yeah, exactly. So actually what you’re trying to say is. But Chanel is a luxury brand that wants to be luxury. They’re not going to be Primark. So again, and as you know, Ryanair versus the more expensive airlines, you know.

That’s called positioning. Yeah, Yeah. So you can position yourself as £90 per per session. And I’m sure don’t worry, you’re going to get a disruptor that comes in saying £24.

Per session, of.

Course. And they’ll be you know, they won’t have the whole experience side. Correct. That you’ve got. And that will be a different thing. Exactly. So positioning is positioning. But but this question of growth and keeping the quality, I think of it as gales and do you know or.

Yeah, of course I do.

Or was this amazing?

I know you’re bougie array is still around. It’s in Saint John’s Wood.

But now it’s no good anymore now that they’ve got venture capital and it’s everywhere. But it’s not what it was.

Do you know, what do you remember when the first Lappin opened up? Lappin Yeah. So I knew.

A big deal.

I know the guy that opened it up and started it. And it was it was it was a disruptor. It was a disruptor. No one had experienced that. And now Lappin is so.

You know, I mean.

Gales You walked into Gaels in Aberdeen.

Yeah.

And it’s just as good. Just as good.

But do you not.

Think some of that has come down to what we’ve experienced and because of the staff and issues that they have and stuff? So I just think, you know, you can’t keep it up because we don’t have the same kind of workforce that we did. So that’s now playing a part played into that.

And I think the work attitude really interesting. I’m going to tell you a story, actually. So there was this amazing company online called Restore. Have you heard of them? Yeah. Amazing. So what they did was it was really, really niche because it was needed. So you say you’d had a handbag that was a Chanel Louis Vuitton or whatever or shoes. So they, they reconditioned it. So it was like brand new and the value would maintain and the service was impeccable. Like you’d go online, you’d book your slot, they’d pick it up, they’d turn it around. If you ever needed to speak to them, they’d speak to their Italia if you needed things tailored. It was amazing and it wasn’t cheap at all. Like I would spend a lot of money getting a bag restored and they’d even, oh, maybe like £200, you know. So that’s, you know, so their margins were pretty good. Anyways, they developed an incredible online reputation and presence. So about two months ago I thought I’d heard they resized shoes. So I had my shoes and I thought there needs to be a little bit bigger. So I sent them off and two weeks later they sent me a quote for it because you have to approve of the quote. And I kept clicking and it wouldn’t accept the payment.

And I tried to call. No one picked up and I tried to email. And no one answered. And I thought, this is really weird. And I got about ten emails saying you have not accepted the quote, so therefore we’re going to send your shoes back. And I was like, No, no, no, please don’t send them back. I’m trying to click. Eventually one of those like email companies messaged me back, What’s the one, you know, when they become a big company? And then they’re like, You get an email marketer? Yeah, something like that. So then I said, I can’t approve of the link. And then they said, Oh yeah, we’re having a glitch in the system. And I was like, Well, no one’s ever emailed me from this place anyway. But a month passes and my shoes come back and they’re not fixed. And I was like, This is bizarre. So I went on the Instagram and I said, Hi guys, you returned my shoes. Can’t get hold of anyone. Will anyone ever reply? Then I looked and there was thousands of messages of of patience. That’s the default clients saying, This is awful. You’ve not returned my shoes, my bags, etcetera. And then someone replied to me saying, Look what has happened. And they sent me a link to Vogue business and.

They got bought.

They got bought.

And the.

Business fell apart. It fell apart. And I was just like, This is just horrendous.

Imagine if someone buys you. Yeah. And then there’s something about Chelsea that’s special. Yeah. And I’m sure there’s plenty about Chelsea that isn’t special. Right? Bits that you could improve on. If someone buys you and focuses on the bits that aren’t special, but in the process.

Messes.

Messes up with the core, the thing that makes it. Chelsea Yeah, that’s where it.

Can all go wrong. Exactly.

And this is where you need.

To have your vision, your passion, so you’ll never be the same.

Yeah.

So I think, you know, from also from the mental health point of view, how do you think that you keep your mental health in check whilst managing so many businesses?

To be totally honest, I’m in doing my treatments all the time.

Yeah.

So. So I love cryo. I probably do it every day. The infrared sauna 4 or 5 times a week. I also still love to exercise, so I find that if I go for a run after I’ve had that one hour to myself, I can take on the world. So I think it’s important to find out what makes you feel good and make sure you’re including that in your daily routine so that you can stay balanced.

What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made in this business?

Oh, that’s a really good question.

And be honest.

Yeah.

Not having not having a marketing plan that I started with is probably my biggest mistake.

Yeah, but pre marketing plan.

Yeah, pre marketing. I think I didn’t understand like having a website, having my blogs prepared, not understanding how important all that was going into business. I just thought you got the numbers right. You’ll be okay. It’s more than that. It’s understanding, you know, the marketing side.

I think dentists make that mistake.

You’ve got the numbers right. But when you make both mistakes, right, you make the marketing mistake and you haven’t got the head for numbers. Yeah. That’s when things can definitely go wrong. Can go wrong.

Yeah.

Maria We discussed the difficulty of managing staff and I think that being a business owner as well, I think that’s been my biggest challenge and I’m sure for you Payman as well, is just managing personalities, understanding people. It can be. What do you think is the most important thing when it comes to managing staff and retaining staff?

I think giving them a plan and, you know, direction and letting them understand your journey and making sure they believe in that journey as well is really important in making sure that people you’re attracting the right kind of people to come and work for you. I mean, there’s still politics that you have to deal with all the time. And, you know, getting people to understand that, you know, we don’t all have to be friends, but we have to like each other, but we all have to learn to work together in order for this to work. So, you know, and just being I’m very hands on still. So being available and being seen by my team I think is really important.

I found, you know, one of the big issues in dental practice and you might have the similar issue is career progression is quite difficult. It is. So when you hire a yes, call them therapists. Yes.

When you we call them you front of house because because the therapist is mainly the beauty team. But we also have front of house team.

So when you hire one of those.

Yes.

Yeah. The you know, you can say to someone this is your pay and but this is this is the progression. Yeah. In most jobs but in a dental practice situation you hire a nurse or in this front of house person, you can say stuff, right? You can say you can go and train and you can become an oral health educator. But the reality is there isn’t much movement in career. Yeah. And so the problem with it is two things. One, you can’t make those promises and you can’t help people. And we all know that at work, you know, progression is what keeps people going more than even pay. Yeah, but the second one is that, you know, you end up attracting the kind of person who’s not interested in progression, who then ends up being a time serving employee. By the way, of course there are people who are time serving employees and are great employees, correct? Yeah, because they want to do a job well and go home and help their kids or whatever. But do you do you does that resonate?

Of course it does very strongly. So. You know, and for me, having mapped out a career plan for people who do step into this space because it was new, I didn’t have anyone here doing it that I could copy exactly. There was no template. So I had to create that. And I’m still learning and and that’s still being refined as we go now. Right? So, you know, coming up with all new titles and all new positions within the company is something that’s very, very much, you know, on my priority list at the moment. But the fact.

That you’re growing it, though, that kind of I guess you can say if you want to go from three to 6 to 15, you can kind of say to one of those front of house people, you can be an area manager one.

Day. Exactly. Yeah.

And that’s the one thing we did. Well, actually, I’m having being completely transparent. Staff at the moment have been an absolute nightmare in terms of we’ve got some amazing ones, but the the sort of long term vision is difficult to instil and I think more, as you said, with the auxiliary staff. And we found as well that there’s been a lot of people leaving dentistry as a profession as a whole. Covid really had an effect.

It’s turning up.

Is so hard.

Turning up, is.

It? But also I do.

Think that my team don’t one day a week they come in really that that difference. Right But your staff have to turn up. They do.

That’s right.

Yeah. And you’re not paying them any more than I’m paying them. No, that’s right. Similar situations turning up such a nightmare that loads of people.

Don’t want.

To. They’re finding jobs that they can do from home and not applying.

Yeah, Yeah.

And we get lots of dental teams applying for jobs here really for that reason.

But you know, I’ll tell you one thing, though. But I was thinking about this and I wondered if either one of you had ever done it. I think, again, in terms of because I’m so I do think in terms of like mental health, etcetera, it’s hard work. It’s hard to understand your mind. It’s also hard if you’re somebody that gets frustrated, angry, etcetera. It’s about doing that internal work and finding out why you’re act in those certain ways. You know, doing workshops where you have a speaker come, Do you see what I mean? And really taps into that emotive side of work? It’s not just about the physical side.

Sonia was saying.

That. Yes, exactly. And I do think, you know, I think I’m in the process of trying to source that where people are really inspired about the long term vision, almost like the secret. But if everyone understands the secret and the abundance mindset, then. Everyone does well and it’s hard to get everyone on that page.

Of it is you have to have the vision to close the practice during those periods. Yeah, of course. Of course. Or pay people to stay to stay longer or work over lunch or whatever. Yeah, because, you know, being in the dental practice is hard. Yeah. Whether you’re the dentist or the nurse. Yeah. It’s hard. And then to say, okay, I’ve got this inspirational speaker coming in, you can say, Maria, come in and have a little chat. You know, they want their lunch times and they want their they do their home time.

That’s right.

But then closing a dental practice is very expensive. Way more expensive than you’d imagine.

Yeah, right. A lot.

And people can’t believe the overheads. I mean, my dad came in yesterday. You’re going to laugh so much at this because my dad’s helping me make some decisions with the refurb because it’s made me really stressful. And he said to me, So Amy, my practice manager, said, You know, like a new dental chair can be like £20,000. And my dad goes.

Terrible.

He goes, This is dentistry, mine 1500 because he’s a.

Gynaecologist, you know?

And I was like, okay, Dad. But he is always like, because it blows his mind that dentistry, dentistry, like it’s exponential compared to medicine. The crop prices we pay for stuff, you know? So it’s kind of crazy. But I think it’s been it’s really inspiring speaking to you because I think that at some point in my life as well, I really want to integrate wellness into the practice that I create. Maybe it’s integrating it into dentistry as well in the same way that some other dentists have. And I think also the the fact that you’ve managed to keep that delicate balance between, you know, being a businesswoman and, you know, having your mental health, you know, still great is really, really important. Have you ever had I know Payman said, what’s your what was your biggest mistake or your big what’s your biggest struggle been? Have you ever had really low moments, let’s say, in the last five years?

Oh, definitely.

Can I? Yeah.

Shall I share? Like last night I had a breakdown just thinking this is all just really overwhelming. Like the amount of work. And because we are short staffed not to touch on that again, it’s like the people that I do rely on to get things, you know, that I delegate to them done. They’re not. That’s not getting done. So it comes back to me to do it. And then so my list is just huge at the moment. And so, you know, so even last night and then my kids and like my son, you know, needed to go to A&E yesterday because he had a football injury. And it’s like that’s the last thing I needed. But it’s like but his priority. So it’s like I have to put my work behind and and then like by the time we get home and I’m thinking and how am I going to deal with catching up with what I haven’t done And you know what people aren’t doing for me. So, so like even up until last night, you still have those moments, you know? But then I’m, you know, I try and be really positive. I’m grateful for my lifestyle and, you know, and everything I have. So like, you wake up and you show up the next day again, Right? And because you’ve got children, is it looking right?

Is it possible to have it all?

No.

And so what have you decided to sacrifice from having it all?

Oh, I don’t know. People will say I don’t sacrifice anything to be honest. Like, I still think I’ve got it all. Well, I don’t know. That’s. That’s really tricky, right? So, no, because I feel like I’m not there enough for my children, so you can’t have it all. So it’s a sad of sacrifice. Time. Time. Yeah, it’s always time. It’s always time. Yeah.

You know, you two are talking about stress of being a business owner, but both of you have got pretty successful businesses. There’s the real stress comes as the business starts to fail. Yeah. So now I want to know. Now your kid at the beginning, right? It’s like you haven’t given time to your kids. Or maybe you’ve delayed having a kid. I don’t know. Yeah, let’s say that’s the case. Yeah. At the same time, you’re losing money. Yeah. That’s when the real nightmare starts happening. And, you know, I don’t want to manifest it.

No, no.

We’re talking about manifesting.

Putting things out in the universe. We’re not. We’re not manifesting that one.

But the thing is, is that, you know, it’s just it’s a really funny one. And I think the whole failure thing is something I’m still really trying to understand. And I do get I’m better at it with, you know, with dentistry. But you’ve got to think like the most successful business moguls failed and failed again. But what makes them successful? They get back up again.

Yeah, that’s what that’s it.

That’s the secret. The secret is not just failing and just. And also it’s also knowing when to walk away. Correct. I think that’s one of the most important things that people don’t recognise.

It is because it is.

But it’s knowing.

But knowing is a massive superpower. Yeah, because one of the most important things is resilience and continuing and fighting through problems. And then you’re saying knowing when to stop is difficult. It’s difficult, you know, because it’s one of your skills is not giving up.

True. But then that is true. But if you’re not getting it or pivoting, you know, I think pivoting is a skill as well. The Lean Start-Up is also one of my favourite books. I’m sure you’ve read it. Yeah. And they talk about that real importance with pivoting and, you know, we. Learnt that with my start up parlour where, you know, there was a certain thing that the initial message that we wanted to deliver was like, you know, this is it, this is it. This has to be the only message. This is our biggest USP. And I was like, No time to pivot. Everyone is eco and sustainable now. That was the reason we started. But it’s not the only reason. It’s going to keep working. And you know that for me, like I learned that from The Lean Start-Up because I started looking at other brands and their messaging and what they were doing. And I think that’s a really important skill to have in any profession that you have. Is the pivot Absolutely right.

Of course. I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah.

And I’m sure you’ve seen that with the Nitin because as competitors came about, you thought we have to do something different now, you.

Know, So there was.

Even like us, we wanted to just to be a wellness recovery centre. But then we realised that actually, you know, we needed the beauty side of things, so we had to pivot and introduce those services together to keep up with everybody else, even the slimming, you know, And because there was a cold treatment, then I thought, okay, we can, we can incorporate in that in what we’re doing. So, you know, pivoting and knowing when to pivot is really important.

So, Maria, thank you so much for being with us today. It’s been an absolute pleasure. We’ve really enjoyed having you. I always end our podcasts with a question, which I’m finding because I wrote down that each guest has to answer.

Do I get to think about this before I have to answer?

Well, no, it has to be on the spot. This is the.

Thing. Okay.

I didn’t do on the spot right now.

Uh.

You’ve just.

Answered.

40 questions on the spot.

But we got.

Off to a bad start.

Right? So I couldn’t get. For me, it was a bad start.

If you could go back in time, where would you go and why? And it could be in your life. Or it could be like in the 50s or whatever you want.

Oh, okay.

If I can go back in time.

What’s your answer?

I’d love to go to the 1950s.

Would you? Yeah.

I just think it would be a really interesting time. I love that whole Mad Men era, Just like living through all of that Stepford Housewives.

I was.

Thinking dinosaurs.

But to just chill out.

With them, I’d be quite scared.

Um.

I would go back to when I turned 40, to be honest. Really good. Ten years ago now.

Why?

Oh, I was just at the peak of everything. Like I just had my children. We had just established the business. We had it all. I had it all. That’s when I had it all right. Gone downhill since then. But I had it all back, you know when? Ten years ago, when I turned 40, I felt like I was at the peak.

Of that idea that I find. I find it so inspirational now that you would give a lot to go back 20 years, like almost everything. To go back 20 years.

I wouldn’t.

Go. I wouldn’t go 20.

15.

20 years. I was not having the time of my life.

Ten years.

I was 30.

Most hated it.

Then. Okay.

You’re Peking duck. Okay. But. But I would and Maria would. Right. To go back ten years.

You would give a lot. Why? Why?

Because. Because as you get older, things. Yeah. You’re not as exciting as you were right now. In ten years time, you will give even more to come back to.

Exactly.

So appreciate today.

Exactly the question.

Why? Because I’m going to tell you because obviously I’m the younger one in the group here. I feel personally as a woman and I know that we’ve touched on this before. In my 20s, I was really insecure, didn’t know who I was, and I didn’t have a great time, as in like I had an okay time. I was really insecure as a woman and I was really worried about things that I shouldn’t have been worried about because society instilled in me that I should, like, be worried about having kids and getting married. So the whole time I was looking for a husband and that was kind of my 20s and it was a really like sad time. And then in my 30s I felt way more comfortable in my skin and I felt like I knew who I was as a woman. So I feel that despite the narrative society have created, like being in your 30s is great. Yeah.

Wait till you hit 50. You’ll see. Yeah.

Wait till you hit. Exactly. Because I’m just about to hit 50. And for me, when I was 40, I just felt like I still had youth on my side. I had like the ten years was next. Ten years was still going to be fun, you know, not as don’t look as old and you have more energy. I just had the kids, so it was all a brilliant time.

But you know, I think.

Wisdom is on your side. Do you not feel that your mind has developed in a different way as the years have gone on?

A little. But maybe you were more more damaged as a 20 year old than I was.

Okay, fine.

Payments like I still want to get on it and like Burning Man or something like that.

But I’m the same.

Burning Man is on my bucket.

List for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it’s great fun. I had a great time, actually. I just got back from Africa burn and I was going to say the.

Thing, whether she’s happy, right?

But the thing that makes that whole experience really beautiful, really sadly, is taking things to basics, which is so hard. As soon as you enter the desert, you don’t have a phone. As soon as you enter the desert, you don’t have money. So what are the two? Those two things mean you work as a community because you have to look out for each other. It’s a group effort to cook for each other, clean for each other, look after each other. You have to be present because you’re just in that moment and guess. What that equals everybody being happier. And it’s really sad because as a society and as if we’ve developed as humans, we’ve disconnected from each other even more and we’re becoming less and less happier. And I think that’s really sad because you’re literally fending for yourself in this desert in each other, and it makes people happier to look after each other.

That’s a lovely place to be, right?

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

So on that note, thank you again, Maria, It was a pleasure to have you, and I’ll see you soon at London. Crier You.

Will? Thank you very much. Yeah.

Hopefully.

I didn’t want to say I still need to come and get that tooth pulled out.

Yeah, come in.

So thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming.

Maria’s details can be found at London. Crier London. London Crier Cry just at London. Crier on Instagram.