Laura Horton: Hello! [00:00:10] And for today’s episode of The Horton Hangout, [00:00:15] our guest edition. We are really lucky to have Payman here with us. I’ll [00:00:20] get into the intro in a moment and we’ll kick off the podcast. But what’s really lovely is that [00:00:25] this pod is going out at the same time to both our podcast [00:00:30] channels and also the Dental Leaders podcast channels. So wherever you are [00:00:35] listening to us from, thank you ever so much. Let’s get on with this guest episode. Hello [00:00:40] and welcome to this guest episode. We have the amazing Payman hanging [00:00:45] out with us today. Now, you are probably most familiar with Payman for a few [00:00:50] reasons. So firstly, he’s the Clinical Director of Enlightened in Whitening, a brand that we all know and love. [00:00:55] You are also a director for the Mini Smile Makeover [00:01:00] course with Dipesh that you’ve been running for, God knows, eight years. Eight years? That is a long time.

Payman Langroudi: Ten [00:01:05] years. Maybe ten years. Wow.

Laura Horton: Very long time. Which is a really cool course. And then of course, [00:01:10] we’ve got the Dental Leaders podcast and today the tables are turning. Yay! But [00:01:15] we’re not interviewing because, you know, this is about hanging out, having a bit of fun together, [00:01:20] having a chat. I just want to start by saying, thank you so much for hanging out with us.

Payman Langroudi: My pleasure. I’m a [00:01:25] bit pressured. It’s much easier being the host and the guest, I find. But you’re right, this isn’t an interview. Not [00:01:30] just hanging. Hanging, just hanging.

Laura Horton: So have you been interviewed much [00:01:35] on a podcast?

Payman Langroudi: Here and there.

Laura Horton: Here and.

Payman Langroudi: There. Here and there.

Laura Horton: How have you found it?

Payman Langroudi: Like I say, difficult. [00:01:40] Difficult. So much easier being the host. Because you can say whatever you want. You can [00:01:45] steer it whichever direction. Exactly. Yeah. But you guys tell me what you think. [00:01:50] That there are some people who talk a lot. Dentists. There are a lot of dentists who talk a lot, [00:01:55] and they’re great.

Laura Horton: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Because you just let them go. And then, you know, whenever you think, move [00:02:00] it on, you just move it on. But then there are some people who are very concise, a bit too concise. And [00:02:05] so you’re sitting back waiting and the guy will finish the response. And then you’re like, oh God, I’ve got to ask another question. [00:02:10] Yeah. And I find that very difficult. Yes, I find those people much harder to talk to.

Leanna Best: I would as well, because also, [00:02:15] where are you going with it?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Because you can change the direction based on what they’re [00:02:20] saying as well. And then it can become really interesting if they’re an open book. [00:02:25] But if they’re very clear and concise and it’s like okay, right next then. And it’s very [00:02:30] wooden.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Because if I say where are you from? And you say Bristol, and then I [00:02:35] say, what part of Bristol. It kind of feels organic. Mhm. Yeah. But if you’re very quick [00:02:40] to answer I’ve got to come up with a different question to where are you from. So it just doesn’t, doesn’t, [00:02:45] doesn’t run as well.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So if Lianna responded well this is my full address, my postcode, I’ve lived there for this many [00:02:50] years and you’re like, whoa.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. These are my hobbies.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How [00:02:55] long have you known each other?

Leanna Best: God, is it ten years?

Laura Horton: It’s over ten years. Definitely. [00:03:00] Yeah. So I trained Liana as a TCO when she was working for Neil Gerrard.

Payman Langroudi: Oh. [00:03:05] You did? Yeah. What a great practice.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Amazing practice.

Payman Langroudi: What a brilliant dentist.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:03:10] Amazing dentist.

Laura Horton: Neil and Fiona.

Payman Langroudi: Love her too.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Amazing.

Leanna Best: She’s so [00:03:15] fun.

Payman Langroudi: And did you meet the little one?

Leanna Best: Oh, I like yeah. She’s wonderful.

Payman Langroudi: Was she there while you were? Was [00:03:20] she alive while you were there?

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah. So Fiona was pregnant when I joined. Then she had her, um. [00:03:25] And so when I left, she was grown up. Really? Isla.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, really?

Leanna Best: So [00:03:30] cute.

Payman Langroudi: Not that long ago.

Laura Horton: You know, she has just started senior school. Oh.

Payman Langroudi: You are kidding.

Laura Horton: No, [00:03:35] I saw the post. Yeah, yeah. Fiona posted first day of year seven. I was like, oh my [00:03:40] gosh. Doesn’t time fly? It does. Absolutely amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Have you got kids as well? [00:03:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah, I’ve got two.

Payman Langroudi: How old are.

Leanna Best: They? I’ve got a three year old little boy and a seven year old little [00:03:50] girl. Yeah. So the girl was like a lie. You [00:03:55] know, I thought I was a great mom. She was amazing. Did everything perfectly well. Duck to water. [00:04:00] And then I had my son. And he taught me how to parent.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, same with me. Same [00:04:05] story, same story.

Leanna Best: A girl first?

Payman Langroudi: No boy first. But you think you’re so good. [00:04:10] Yeah. You see? You see something? You see someone telling off a kid in a supermarket. You think? Wow, they [00:04:15] don’t know how to handle children.

Laura Horton: That’ll never.

Payman Langroudi: Be me. And then the second one comes along and completely.

Leanna Best: Embarrasses. [00:04:20]

Payman Langroudi: Me.

Leanna Best: All the time.

Payman Langroudi: But how do you. Have you got a nanny?

Leanna Best: No.

Payman Langroudi: So how do you manage with the travelling [00:04:25] around the country?

Leanna Best: Oh, yeah. I’ve got, um, granny, his mum. She comes.

Payman Langroudi: To my.

Leanna Best: House. [00:04:30] Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. So they go to. He goes to pre-school. Drew obviously goes to school. And my [00:04:35] mother in law will come to mind. Collect them, do dinner. So it was all very nice home environment.

Payman Langroudi: And are you away [00:04:40] for days at a time?

Leanna Best: Only normally one night a week if I’m away. I don’t tend to stretch it that [00:04:45] much. Now and then I may do if it works for us. Um. But not often. That [00:04:50] wouldn’t be my preference. Not with the two children.

Laura Horton: Yeah, we tend to have two really long [00:04:55] days. So either either for me, I might be like leaving late in the evening. [00:05:00] So I’ve said good night. That’s done. Problem with that is loads of roads are shut. It’s really [00:05:05] annoying how many roads are shut at night, or you’ll leave really early the next morning and [00:05:10] then you’ll have an overnight and then it’s another really long day.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve stopped driving trains. [00:05:15] Just trains all the way. Wow, it’s so much easier.

Leanna Best: I bet it’s less stressful.

Payman Langroudi: Much less. Yeah, [00:05:20] much. Much less. Yeah. It’s amazing. And by the way, much quicker. Like here to Liverpool. Two hours [00:05:25] and 20. Yeah. By car it’s like four hours sometimes. You know.

Laura Horton: The thing is though, I’ve [00:05:30] got, you know, a good half an hour, 40 minute drive just to get to the nearest train station because I live in the middle of nowhere, so [00:05:35] I might as well carry on.

Leanna Best: Oh, yeah. So you’re in a different situation.

Laura Horton: Different situation? You’re in a city. It’s totally. [00:05:40]

Leanna Best: Different.

Laura Horton: Yeah, like my sister lives in London. She never drives anywhere.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I was one stop from Kings Cross [00:05:45] before. Now I’ve moved. But once Kings Cross was amazing. Yeah. Door to door to Liverpool [00:05:50] like nothing.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Absolutely amazing. But this child situation, [00:05:55] you know, I.

Leanna Best: Haven’t.

Laura Horton: Cried myself on myself, on how smart [00:06:00] I am to have stuck with the one perfect child because I [00:06:05] thought I weighed it up and I thought, I can’t risk it, I can’t risk this [00:06:10] boy is so perfect. He’s slept through the night from six weeks old. He’s he [00:06:15] eats everything. He’s so well behaved. He’s just my perfect little boy. I mean, [00:06:20] we’ll come back in a few years when he’s a teenager and revisit this, but to this point, he’s just turned nine. He’s [00:06:25] just my everything and he’s perfect. And I’d seen my sister [00:06:30] struggling with a child that didn’t sleep. Turned out she’d got dairy intolerance and my sister didn’t [00:06:35] sleep for so long. And I thought, oh, that can’t be me.

Payman Langroudi: Can I ask you to as women? [00:06:40] Right. And you’re clearly both of you like women, particularly ambitious women. [00:06:45] Yeah. Around that question of having it all.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you accept? You can’t, or are you [00:06:50] actually going for it?

Laura Horton: You can’t have.

Leanna Best: It. No you can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Oh that’s good. That’s good to [00:06:55] hear.

Leanna Best: No you.

Payman Langroudi: Can’t. All the ones who don’t have children yet say they’re not [00:07:00] there today.

Leanna Best: Yeah, you’re.

Laura Horton: Not going to have it all. You’re going to be really stressed out. [00:07:05]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: You’re going to feel overwhelmed. You’re going to feel like you’re juggling it all. The struggle [00:07:10] is real.

Leanna Best: And that’s not a nice place to be. No.

Payman Langroudi: What’s given, what’s given compared to what you thought would give. [00:07:15]

Laura Horton: Like social life for me.

Leanna Best: Oh, that’s not my. No, I’m very busy. [00:07:20] Still socially. What’s given for me?

Payman Langroudi: You said. You said you can’t have it all. So what’s the thing that’s [00:07:25] missing? What’s. What’s the thing that’s suffered?

Leanna Best: Probably how much I can be there [00:07:30] for the children to a degree. So I do make sure they are my priority. Don’t get me wrong. But because [00:07:35] I do travel.

Payman Langroudi: Do you, like, spend longer with them?

Leanna Best: I would, I’d get less time some days with them. It [00:07:40] doesn’t seem to bother my daughter because she can accept it. And she’s daddy’s girl anyway, [00:07:45] so she’s not missing out. But I’ve noticed it since having a boy. Because it’s mummy is [00:07:50] the best thing ever. So he’s like, where are you going? No. Like, you know, he’s a bit more reactive to it. [00:07:55] So yeah, I would say that that bothers me because then I’ll spend time in the car and be a bit like, [00:08:00] oh, he’s a bit upset. I rang you today, didn’t I? And I was like, oh no, Desi’s not very well. [00:08:05] And he didn’t want me to go. And she was like, oh no. But luckily I’ve got the mother in law who is [00:08:10] super close with, so she’s just going to go and intercept him.

Laura Horton: I remember I would not stay overnight anywhere. [00:08:15] For the first year Harry was born, I’d only had sort of like eight weeks off. Um, and I’m.

Leanna Best: Just crazy, [00:08:20] by the way.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I just, I just couldn’t I just couldn’t leave it. And I remember the first [00:08:25] day I wasn’t back for bedtime because I had a tire blow. I was hysterical [00:08:30] when I got home and my husband was like, well, just get you a new car. Don’t think this low profile [00:08:35] tires on this Mercedes are where we live. The right car for you. Let’s go and get something [00:08:40] a bit more sturdy. And I was like, okay, Is he [00:08:45] okay? He’s like, he’s fine. Go up and sit next to him in his cot. And I was like, okay, he’s actually fine.

Payman Langroudi: You [00:08:50] haven’t got a co-founder?

Laura Horton: No.

Payman Langroudi: So do you get lonely at the top?

Laura Horton: Um. [00:08:55]

Leanna Best: You’re really good at questions.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve got I’ve got co-founders. [00:09:00]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s horrible splitting the profits four ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you [00:09:05] have to get four times as thick. But when things are hard.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Just someone to [00:09:10] someone to go to.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So I think I’ve been really lucky over the years because Michael Bentley was with me for a really [00:09:15] long time. Who? I just met him at a practice managers conference. I was like, this guy’s amazing [00:09:20] and happened to be in a practice around the corner from him the next week like it was meant to be, [00:09:25] and we worked together right up until the pandemic, and that’s a whole nother story. More from his [00:09:30] side. Um, and then you’d already started doing a bit of lecturing [00:09:35] because Fiona had put you forward for this implant day, and then that just became [00:09:40] a natural thing. Yeah. Um, and I think what’s really nice about Michael [00:09:45] and yourself is that they’re relationships that have started as [00:09:50] business relationships, but have then grown into lovely friendships. And I think that’s really [00:09:55] nice and also much easier. So we can have a really, you know, non-emotional [00:10:00] factual conversation about whatever. But then we’re also really good friends now [00:10:05] as well, which is nice, I think when it’s the other way around, when you’ve got a friendship and [00:10:10] you go into business, I think that must be really quite difficult sometimes.

Payman Langroudi: That’s what I did. [00:10:15] That’s what I did, yeah, my best, my two best friends and my wife. Um, we’ve [00:10:20] never really had a major disagreement, but then we’ve never really made major amounts of money. No, it’s when you make [00:10:25] a lot of money that these arguments start. Yeah, yeah, that’s what I think. That’s what I’ve seen. Yeah. [00:10:30] You know, it’s we’ve never really had a proper disagreement. I mean, of course we disagree on stuff. Yeah, [00:10:35] but not in a way that makes you feel like you regret the partnership.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:10:40]

Payman Langroudi: At all. Ever.

Laura Horton: So whose idea was enlightened then?

Payman Langroudi: The three [00:10:45] of us. The three of us.

Laura Horton: Were over dinner.

Payman Langroudi: No, no, on a on a ski lift.

Laura Horton: Wow.

Leanna Best: Really?

Laura Horton: That [00:10:50] is so cool. Yeah, right. Okay, so who prompted the who started the conversation? Was it you? [00:10:55]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. What happened was I was getting into partnership with my boss. Yeah. He was. He was [00:11:00] on Harley Street making, like, very high end dentures that give you facelifts [00:11:05] and things. And I was going to go into partnership with him. I was like, Harley Street all this. I was excited. There [00:11:10] was something in back of my head saying, I don’t want to be making dentures, man. And then [00:11:15] I did my first bleaching case in Viti opti Dental.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:11:20]

Payman Langroudi: And it blew me away that I. The fact that the teeth changed colour. Yeah, absolutely blew [00:11:25] me away.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we were skiing and I said to them, look, we should, we’ve got to do something with [00:11:30] bleaching. Mhm. Um, and we were going to open a teeth whitening centre and call that enlightened. [00:11:35] Yeah. And we were going to open for teeth whitening centres. Called them all enlighten. [00:11:40]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and then in the sort of research phase of that, [00:11:45] like, what are we going to do? What’s going to be the story of this thing? We had to find the right products [00:11:50] for it. And it switched into, you know, the company [00:11:55] saying we don’t have European distributors. And and then we said, oh, we’ll be your European distributor. [00:12:00] It completely changed to a supply thing, right.

Laura Horton: So you didn’t have did you have to put a lot of investment [00:12:05] in or not really.

Payman Langroudi: I think we put like 30 grand each or something. [00:12:10] But but then it was big. Beg borrow and steal for three, four years.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:12:15] It was I mean, it was very difficult. Very difficult. First three, four years.

Laura Horton: Yeah, definitely.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but that was it. And [00:12:20] we never had a proper investor, which I kind of regret now.

Laura Horton: Do you?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. I mean, it’s nice not [00:12:25] having to answer to anyone. There is that.

Laura Horton: Is it for growth?

Payman Langroudi: But we live in London. Yeah. London. [00:12:30] The financial capital of the world. Many of my friends are in the city. You know, they raise money. Yeah. I [00:12:35] never thought to even raise money properly. They never did anything about it.

Laura Horton: No. [00:12:40]

Payman Langroudi: And now I think about it. And I see some people, you know, they just started a company and [00:12:45] we just started with our seed fund. £2 million. Yeah. It took me [00:12:50] like eight, ten years to, to bring in £2 million in total. Yeah. Just that year. Yeah. [00:12:55] Something like that. Yeah. And so now I sort of think that was a mistake. So [00:13:00] I’m telling my son now if he’s ever going to do entrepreneurship to do it right.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Get the get [00:13:05] the investment at the start.

Leanna Best: Yeah. And how was your son 18.

Payman Langroudi: So he’s just about to go to bath [00:13:10] actually.

Leanna Best: Oh really. Oh it’s lovely.

Laura Horton: What’s he studying?

Payman Langroudi: Aerospace engineering.

Leanna Best: Oh, [00:13:15] my cousin’s in. That works for Rolls-Royce. Great company. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. He’s not even sure if he wants to be that [00:13:20] engineer, but, like, he’s like, it’s a good degree to get in. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Wow. [00:13:25]

Payman Langroudi: But you know, what I found is a lot of it’s defence.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I wasn’t aware of that. I thought it was like rockets [00:13:30] and Formula one cars. 95% of it is defence.

Leanna Best: Yeah. And I didn’t realise that [00:13:35] until I actually asked my cousin about his role. Yeah. And then he would explain and I was like, oh right. Okay. That seems a [00:13:40] bit different to what I expected.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So it’s a bit unexpected. So you went on his first work experience. [00:13:45] So what do you what do you what did you do? It was like, yeah, it’s a missile guidance [00:13:50] system. Okay. Okay.

Laura Horton: Amazing. He’ll end up with one of those [00:13:55] jobs that I can’t talk about. My job.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Can’t tell you what I do. Can’t tell you anything.

Payman Langroudi: Then he went British [00:14:00] Aerospace, and there was a helmet that looks through the plane because they’ve got cameras [00:14:05] on the bottom of the plane, and they know, like, you know. But it’s all defence. I spent all these years saying war is wrong. [00:14:10] Yeah. Anyway.

Laura Horton: That’s reality. And he’s in it. He’s in it. So [00:14:15] you’re saying how long you’ve had enlighten.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. 24 years [00:14:20] now.

Laura Horton: 24 years. So when did I meet you? When did you [00:14:25] come to the practice?

Payman Langroudi: When ashes. Practice. Practice. And I remember [00:14:30] walking in and thinking, first of all, looking around the decor and thinking, did they put [00:14:35] that in this town, which was Hartford? Hartford?

Laura Horton: Yeah, small little town.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:14:40] I’d already been. I’d been to places like Dental. And, you know, I’d seen beautiful practices [00:14:45] in central London, but I did not expect it in Hartford. And then [00:14:50] just the, the way I probably it was you talking to me, [00:14:55] the way I was welcomed and and shown around and all of that. I [00:15:00] remember thinking, wow, unbelievable. It was really it was it was completely [00:15:05] out of the ordinary. Mhm. Um, even for those central London practices, it was it was absolutely [00:15:10] special. I guess that was your influence.

Laura Horton: Yeah it was. Teamwork makes [00:15:15] the dream work you know.

Payman Langroudi: But I do remember that because it was such a long time ago.

Laura Horton: It was a long [00:15:20] time ago.

Payman Langroudi: Now you see a bit more of that.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s kind of how I felt when I went [00:15:25] for an interview with Neil. I was like, similar vibe. Very much so. But then [00:15:30] almost put me off. So I was like, oh wow, this is really intense. It’s very like posh high end. [00:15:35] I got quite scared quite quickly. Um, but obviously interviewed well, got the job [00:15:40] and then soon realised why everything was the way it was because it was just constant investment and training [00:15:45] America.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, Neil and Fiona, they reinvest continuously [00:15:50] in that practice continuously, whether it’s building work, whether it’s extra training, [00:15:55] whether it’s the latest machine, you know, and, you know, [00:16:00] in business it’s hard investing, isn’t it. That’s your bottom line. But they [00:16:05] just keep on doing it, you know. Um it’s brilliant. It’s brilliant to see I love, love, love that practice. [00:16:10]

Leanna Best: Have you ever been there.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah a couple of times. Probably. Probably. They’re together. Yeah. [00:16:15]

Leanna Best: I bet we were at some point.

Laura Horton: Your paths have crossed. Yeah. What are you looking [00:16:20] at in enlightened now then what are you investing in now? We’ve talked about investing. Anything coming up?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:16:25] Um, so we moved the lab in-house.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, [00:16:30] about five just before Covid. So up to that point, we were always outsourcing [00:16:35] the lab part. And so we’re continually now the labs right [00:16:40] there, you know, so we can keep on going and trying things. And so we buy a lot of equipment. My, my [00:16:45] my respect for labs has gone through the roof. Yeah. I mean, it’s a tough business. [00:16:50]

Laura Horton: It’s hard.

Payman Langroudi: Tough tough. But we make one product a bleaching tray. Yeah. Which which labs just [00:16:55] laugh at. They think it’s nothing. Yeah. Which it is from from a lab perspective. It’s nothing. But [00:17:00] it’s hard. Running a lab is hard working to deadlines. You’re completely reliant on the [00:17:05] flow. Um, a bit like a restaurant, you know, like everyone has to know everyone’s job. Yeah. [00:17:10] Otherwise, you know, you’re going to lose consistency. But anyway, we’re very busy on on that, [00:17:15] trying to improve the tray all the time. And with digital, it’s made it a little bit more complicated. Right. [00:17:20] And so we’ve got printers and resins and you know all of that side. But [00:17:25] really Laura and you guys will see this as sort of from the practice [00:17:30] perspective, it would be your version of it would be internal marketing versus [00:17:35] external marketing. And I’ve really become aware of [00:17:40] the fact that if I want to double the size of enlighten, it’s much easier. Doubling [00:17:45] the number of treatments than doubling the number of dentists.

Laura Horton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:17:50] you know, you’re you’re sort of DNA tends to make [00:17:55] you want to find a new customer all the time. Um, but when we look at the numbers, [00:18:00] they’re easily double able per dentist. And you guys know this, dentists [00:18:05] don’t do enough whitening, they don’t ask enough questions about wants and so forth. So that’s [00:18:10] been sort of my obsession this last sort of year of, you know, [00:18:15] and we’re measuring it now finally. So before we used to go into the practice, [00:18:20] do some training and leave.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Right now now we’re measuring. What [00:18:25] does that do to the to the growth of the practice, not just going in its resources and so [00:18:30] forth. So I’ve been a bit bit focussed on that. And then on the communication side, which [00:18:35] I’m responsible for, it’s a bit difficult, right. Because I feel like I’ve really failed on it [00:18:40] because a lot of people think enlighten is, you know, [00:18:45] gel in a fancy box and it’s not. There’s a lot more to [00:18:50] it than, than the packaging.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and but I’d say 60% [00:18:55] of dentists actually think that. Um, and the fact that we, I [00:19:00] haven’t been able to get that message through properly makes me feel like a bit of a failure, you know? [00:19:05]

Laura Horton: So what’s the message, then? What’s the message?

Payman Langroudi: Much better. Much, much better product. It’s much better product. It makes teeth whiter. Yeah, [00:19:10] but but what I’m saying is if you go and ask a random dentist.

Laura Horton: Yeah, they’ll just be like.

Payman Langroudi: They’ll think [00:19:15] it’s a fancy packaging. Branding. Like, I don’t know, an Apple computer, some fancy box. It’s a totally [00:19:20] different computer. Yeah, yeah. I’m not saying it’s an Apple computer, but, you know, we really [00:19:25] try hard on making each aspect and then the results are much better, right? But [00:19:30] I haven’t managed to get that story into the market properly.

Laura Horton: Well, you’ve got Apple and you’ve got Acer. And there’s a distinct [00:19:35] difference, isn’t there? I know one’s a mac and one’s a PC, but still at the end of the day, it’s a computer, isn’t [00:19:40] it? And one thing I’ve always said to practices is when a team members [00:19:45] whiten their teeth, I can always tell when it’s enlightened. I can tell just by. I’m like, you’ve used [00:19:50] enlightened and they’re like, yep. And I’m like, you’re happy. Really happy. I can tell instantly because [00:19:55] of the colour, because there’s just something about it. But I totally agree with [00:20:00] you that practices are not doing as much whitening as they should be. [00:20:05] Nowhere near. Nowhere near. And everyone wants their teeth whiter, everyone wants their teeth [00:20:10] whiter. And I think my mum’s a classic example. She’s 72 now. Um, [00:20:15] but a few years ago she went to the dentist and she called me up and she said, I’m having my teeth [00:20:20] whitened. And I was like, yes, ma’am. I’ve been on at you for decades [00:20:25] to whiten your teeth. And, you know, she said, well, I’ve always wanted [00:20:30] to do it. And I said, well, what prompted this then? And she said it was the conversation. The dentist [00:20:35] prompted the conversation, not me. She didn’t want to say.

Leanna Best: Well.

Payman Langroudi: We don’t, [00:20:40] you know. Yeah. You know, I’d say 90% of people. Yeah, are not going to [00:20:45] sort of veer away from the patient journey. No, the patient journey is there [00:20:50] and different. We all know there’s different patient journeys. Yeah. So people patients will [00:20:55] generally just do do as they’re told. They’ll follow the patient journey. If the patient journey happens [00:21:00] to go to the point of the colour of teeth, which is very interesting. Right. [00:21:05] It’s not we’re not taught in university to record the colour of teeth in an [00:21:10] examination. Yeah. Like we’re taught a whole lot of stuff about the TMJ clicks and [00:21:15] obviously all cancer perio, but the colour of teeth, we’re not even taught to record. [00:21:20] Yeah, and it’s a massive, magnificent mistake, right. Insomuch [00:21:25] as the patients are more interested in the colour of the teeth than they are.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Everything else. Yeah, [00:21:30] but we’re not recording that. Yeah.

Laura Horton: So when I’m working with dentists on their examination and diagnosis, [00:21:35] taking a shade is part of it and it’s, you know, verbal from the nurse. Mhm. [00:21:40] Um let’s take the tooth shade and then the dentist explains this is what they’re doing. This [00:21:45] is the range of shades. And please let that shade guide be in the right order because it freaks me out a little bit. [00:21:50] Yeah I can’t bear it. A1 b1 c1 it’s got to be in the right order, but by [00:21:55] value.

Payman Langroudi: Right.

Laura Horton: Yeah. I’m like ah, um, but and [00:22:00] then the patients, they, they get engaged in that. Would you like to see what colour your teeth are. If they say no, they’re not. [00:22:05] Say no. Oh yes please I’d like. Here’s a mirror. Have a look. Are you happy with the colour of your [00:22:10] teeth? I think it’s part of the.

Payman Langroudi: Oral hygiene instruction. Part of the examination? Yeah, [00:22:15] because patients see it as part of oral hygiene.

Laura Horton: And feeling fresh, looking [00:22:20] clean. People want to look clean, and I think things that patients say are that [00:22:25] they don’t want to look too white. That’s that’s a worry.

Leanna Best: It’s a fear.

Laura Horton: That’s a.

Leanna Best: Fear. The biggest fears. Oh, [00:22:30] I don’t mind having whitening, but I don’t want to have it too white. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Do you teach you? Must you guys in the SEO [00:22:35] world, you must teach about. Objection handling. Oh, yeah. And [00:22:40] one thing I always tell people, dentists is if you come up with any idea, especially [00:22:45] a want, a need is different. You’re kind of being the doctor. You’re saying you really [00:22:50] should do this? Yeah. If it’s a want and you’ve just said it to the patient, you must [00:22:55] expect the patient to come up with one mini objection to buy themselves some time to [00:23:00] think about what’s going on. What just happened? Yeah. And so.

Leanna Best: It’s [00:23:05] so. Exactly.

Payman Langroudi: It’s kind of stressful. I was with my dad with with a urologist yesterday, [00:23:10] and I could see him sort of stressing. He’s an older guy. I could see him stressing to [00:23:15] answer the. The guy was saying, how many times a day do you go to the loo? He was like, so if you mean, you know, whatever [00:23:20] it was. Yeah. And so, you know, you come up with something new to the patient. You will get now with whitening [00:23:25] the if the patients over 55, [00:23:30] 60 if patients over 60, the first mini objection will always be not my age. [00:23:35] I’m too old for this.

Leanna Best: I had that yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common.

Laura Horton: I don’t want and that’s where they worry about them [00:23:40] being too white as well.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. But now when the patients saying that they’re not saying no [00:23:45] they’re not. No, they’re just buying a little bit of time. They’re kind of saying I’m [00:23:50] not vain. It’s not like British older person. Yeah. Can’t can’t admit [00:23:55] to vanity. Yeah. Let’s talk about a man. You know, like like you said your mum was about 74 [00:24:00] year old man. Cannot say I want a whiter smile. Yeah. Now the obvious [00:24:05] conclusion to that is you go in with something like age is just a number. But [00:24:10] what I found much easier in that situation to point out one of the health benefits [00:24:15] of whitening and there are health benefits. We just talk about them very much because everyone wants. But it’s really [00:24:20] good for your gums, right? In that situation, you say it’s good for your gums and now now they’ve got something to [00:24:25] hang on. That isn’t vanity, it’s health. Oh, good for my gums. Let’s go for it. Now [00:24:30] with another patient it might be a different mini objection. Yeah. And [00:24:35] you guys must be training about. I can’t afford it.

Leanna Best: Which is.

Payman Langroudi: Which is, you know, I can’t afford [00:24:40] it. Yeah. That’s never the objection. It’s never about money. When it’s about money, they [00:24:45] don’t actually admit to it. They use a different objection because people don’t like to admit [00:24:50] they can’t afford it.

Leanna Best: No, exactly.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t afford it. Means all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I can’t afford it based [00:24:55] on what just happened.

Leanna Best: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, I can’t afford. I don’t like you. Yeah. That’s [00:25:00] it. Could be my mum. My mum’s in hospital. I can’t think about it. Yeah, I can’t afford it. Just means just. [00:25:05]

Leanna Best: Get me away.

Payman Langroudi: Just some time. Give me some.

Leanna Best: Time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And so that. It’s funny that [00:25:10] we have to talk about it, but we do have to talk about it.

Laura Horton: We do?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. These, these. And that’s why you guys [00:25:15] play such an important role. Because dentists can’t do the work they’re trained to do unless they figure out [00:25:20] this sort of stuff.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And this is where the TCO role does come [00:25:25] in. And a lot of people again, just think the TCO roles just for, you know, the high value patients. But I’m [00:25:30] really passionate about it for general dentistry. And it really excels the experience in the patient. [00:25:35] So new general patient comes in. They see the TCO first 15 minutes 20 minutes. [00:25:40] It depends if they’re going to scan, if they’ve got the room to scan, things like that. But that initial conversation [00:25:45] really relaxes the patient. And you get to find out all this information on behalf [00:25:50] of, you know, the dentist, and then you’re finding out, you know, oh, any [00:25:55] cosmetic concerns. And nine out of ten patients doesn’t matter. Their age will [00:26:00] say, I’d like whiter teeth. Right. We’re now doing whitening today and I’m about to do the scan anyway. Happy [00:26:05] days. Um, that’s now X amount of money. We can we can charge that patient today if they’re happy to [00:26:10] go ahead with it. It. And it’s quick. And the patients are like, oh right, okay, well I can just come back in a couple of weeks. Yeah. Fantastic. We’ve got [00:26:15] the scan. We’ll use that if that’s okay. And it works really well like that as well as then [00:26:20] handing them over properly in the exam, getting a handover back and then taking them back in the [00:26:25] console.

Payman Langroudi: How do you guys handle patients who don’t go ahead with [00:26:30] the plan.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Insomuch as I’m not talking about follow up techniques, all of that, I find a [00:26:35] lot of times dentists won’t even offer something because of the embarrassment [00:26:40] of the patient saying no to that thing.

Leanna Best: I’ve not had that before. No, no, [00:26:45] I haven’t had that.

Payman Langroudi: So the whitening conversation. Yeah, it’s a one. Would you like a whiter smile? Yeah. [00:26:50] There are different reasons why they don’t go ahead. They’ll say something like, I don’t want to embarrass the patient. I don’t want to annoy [00:26:55] the patient. I don’t want to. I don’t want to come across as a pushy salesman. Yeah.

Leanna Best: I guess.

Payman Langroudi: When a patient doesn’t [00:27:00] go ahead, there’s this moment for the dentist.

Leanna Best: Because.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a defensive.

Leanna Best: Yeah, [00:27:05] yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And, you know, I’m. One minute I’m your doctor. I’m supposed to be caring for you. Next minute I’m selling [00:27:10] something. Now you haven’t wanted it. I think that’s one of the primary reasons why [00:27:15] they don’t ask. Because it’s very obvious that if they ask, they’ll get it. Um, so [00:27:20] one thing we’ve been teaching is this notion of we’re asking everyone. Um, because, [00:27:25] yeah, the because is key. Yeah, but asking everyone. I’m not singling you out. I’m not saying [00:27:30] you’re ugly. I’m not saying anything. I’m asking.

Laura Horton: I’m saying your teeth look dirty.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Asking everyone. And then. Because [00:27:35] can be anything. Yeah. It really doesn’t matter what the. Because is. Because it’s summer. Winter. You know, we’ve got we’ve got a new [00:27:40] system. It doesn’t matter what you say after because. Yeah, but but that helps a lot of dentists get [00:27:45] over the idea of I don’t want you to feel like I’m saying you’re.

Leanna Best: Yeah. It’s uncomfortable. [00:27:50]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: It’s uncomfortable communication for a lot of people to have. When I first ever became [00:27:55] a dental nurse, I worked in a practice which was predominantly NHS, and we did a really small amount of [00:28:00] private, and there was one dentist and there were six surgeries. Only one [00:28:05] dentist. Ever used to ask any cosmetic concerns. Are you happy with the colour of your teeth? If there was diastema, [00:28:10] are you happy with that gap in the front of your mouth? And I used to think, wow, that’s really [00:28:15] nice that he asked those questions. I never saw it as a negative, but obviously everybody [00:28:20] else didn’t choose to operate the same as him. He was the principal. I [00:28:25] speak about him a lot. Ian. Mhm. Um, but the other principal, David, would never ask those questions and [00:28:30] it’s exactly that they’re worried to offend.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah yeah. But I think even if you go back to [00:28:35] say general dentistry.

Payman Langroudi: You guys treat the dentist as well. Sorry.

Laura Horton: Yeah I do a lot of work with dentists training [00:28:40] them for.

Payman Langroudi: These.

Leanna Best: Communication mainly. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Presenting treatment plans to patients handling [00:28:45] objections.

Payman Langroudi: So sorry to.

Laura Horton: Interrupt. No, no. It’s fine. I think sometimes what we experience [00:28:50] for sure is that patients get a big treatment plan essentially dumped on them. And the [00:28:55] missing communication is what is urgent, what’s what’s important, what [00:29:00] needs to be addressed now. Because it is shocking that patients walk around with a mouth full of decay, [00:29:05] knowing they’ve got a mouth full of decay. So I would always question, but so what hasn’t allowed [00:29:10] them to move forward? Then why are they still walking around with a mouth full of decay if they know they’ve got that? So we want to [00:29:15] make sure it’s co-diagnosis, which I love, that they understand and [00:29:20] own their own problems, and then they’re advised and recommended. I think this is the one [00:29:25] thing, again, a lot of dentists don’t do is recommend and you’re the professional.

Payman Langroudi: I mean, if there’s [00:29:30] three courses of action, recommend one of them.

Laura Horton: Three teeth that need treating. But [00:29:35] I’m going to recommend we deal with this tooth first. And the reason for that is a B and C. And [00:29:40] that’s why we’re going to recommend we start with that one. So if those patients leave even just booking that [00:29:45] that one treatment or the hygiene, do you know what I mean. It really, really helps [00:29:50] keep the patient in the flow. And they might end up having one tooth done at a time every couple of months.

Payman Langroudi: The last time [00:29:55] you guys were patients.

Laura Horton: Oh.

Leanna Best: The patient.

Laura Horton: Tell you it [00:30:00] is actually because I know this because I was looking the other day.

Leanna Best: For [00:30:05] treatment.

Laura Horton: Well, it was three years since I had an examination. Um. [00:30:10]

Leanna Best: But Trump.

Laura Horton: What a tramp. Ash did my veneers [00:30:15] when Harry was born. Yes. Nearly nine years ago. That he would have done them.

Leanna Best: Hmm. What have [00:30:20] I had done.

Laura Horton: As a patient? That was a big course of treatment.

Leanna Best: Mine. Mine was a hygienist of routine [00:30:25] hygiene.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Hygienist goes to the hygienist.

Leanna Best: For six months now, though.

Payman Langroudi: I don’t really count.

Leanna Best: That doesn’t count. Okay, [00:30:30] so any treatment? Oh, my God, I can’t remember, but it was under sedation. Inhalation [00:30:35] sedation. Because Neil started doing it. And I am petrified of injections. And [00:30:40] he said well you’ll have sedation then. And I was like okay so it’s probably a filling. That was ages ago. [00:30:45] Can’t remember.

Payman Langroudi: So I’ve got I’ve got a loose filling. Yeah, yeah. It’s on holiday. Something [00:30:50] stuck in my teeth and oh my God, it’s filling. It’s loose. Yeah. And my [00:30:55] wife is a dentist. Yeah. And I haven’t booked.

Laura Horton: You haven’t done anything.

Payman Langroudi: Haven’t [00:31:00] booked to go in yet.

Laura Horton: Just playing around with it in your mouth.

Payman Langroudi: Well, I’ve only been back four days.

Leanna Best: Five [00:31:05] days?

Payman Langroudi: But, but but it’s made me realise, and it’s.

Leanna Best: Not a priority. [00:31:10]

Payman Langroudi: When I had, I had a feeling as well about two years ago or something. Um. That [00:31:15] one made me realise. Painless injection. My wife gave me. My wife gave me this injection. [00:31:20] I did not feel it at all. And I’m a dentist. Yeah. I didn’t even know she’d given an injection [00:31:25] until it started going numb.

Leanna Best: I need to see her.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and her patients follow [00:31:30] her around because she’s gentle. Right.

Leanna Best: Yeah. That’s wonderful.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now I’ve realised that’s more important [00:31:35] than anything. Because I hate needles like you. Yeah. Um, but then what I’m saying is it’s [00:31:40] a pain in the ass, man.

Laura Horton: It’s inconvenient.

Payman Langroudi: It’s tough, it’s inconvenient, it’s cost. [00:31:45] Let’s say I’m not going to pay it, but it’s cost. Now imagine I go. If I was a regular person, [00:31:50] I’d go in for this broken filling. And then the dentist says, do you want whitening? I may say, [00:31:55] no, I might. Yeah. Because I’ve already an extra appointment now. Another [00:32:00] find five, £500 or whatever. Yeah. And so I get it, [00:32:05] I get it. Yeah. You know, so what’s I find very interesting [00:32:10] is the notion that who is the most engaged patient with [00:32:15] the practice. Is it the one who just had 30 grand of implant treatment? They’re [00:32:20] very engaged. Yeah. For me, it’s that cat that [00:32:25] keeps turning up every six months.

Leanna Best: Yeah. It’s a bread and butter patient.

Payman Langroudi: Being told they need nothing. Yeah. [00:32:30] And keeps coming every six months. Yeah. And pay money to be told they need nothing. [00:32:35] I mean, that’s a massively engaged person.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: You know, of course, some people have had it [00:32:40] so ingrained in their head if you don’t turn up every six months. Yeah. But, you know, no way. If I was a normal civilian, [00:32:45] I would turn up six times in a row to be told you need nothing and keep on turning [00:32:50] up to be told I need nothing.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So now those patients imagine [00:32:55] every dentist has got, six of those a day, depending [00:33:00] on the day. Six patients who come in needing nothing, who maybe [00:33:05] the last four times they came in needed nothing as well. And they told the patient, you need [00:33:10] nothing when they could have easily said there’s a filling, you know. So trust is through the roof. Yes. [00:33:15] With that particular dentist.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: They need nothing brushing their teeth very well. [00:33:20] They love the sort of pat on the back for that. Perfect for whitening. Perfect for whitening. [00:33:25] But ever since the Dorfman days, we’ve learned that whitening is. Do you want fries [00:33:30] with that. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah obviously it is. Yeah. Because it goes well with fillings. It goes [00:33:35] well with Invisalign.

Leanna Best: It goes with I love that.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. But what I’m saying is it’s such a missed opportunity [00:33:40] because every single dentist has got 4 or 5 of those a day. Yeah. Yeah. Patients who need nothing. And [00:33:45] those patients are perfect for the whitening conversation. Yeah. But. But we don’t think [00:33:50] about it. It’s not. It’s not a common thing.

Laura Horton: I feel it’s exactly the same. I relate [00:33:55] it to time. So patients that have got the time to come and they’ve also got good oral [00:34:00] health, which means they’ve got the time to T.P. every day engaged. They’re engaged. [00:34:05] They’ve got time. So who are they? And actually the biggest group of patients with time. They’re [00:34:10] not us guys sitting here. They’re not our age group. They are actually the retired. You [00:34:15] know.

Payman Langroudi: All the patients are the best.

Laura Horton: Older patients and.

Payman Langroudi: Best.

Laura Horton: Practices are full of them. And they’re [00:34:20] missing all these opportunities all the time just to whiten teeth. And these patients [00:34:25] have the time. That’s what you know.

Leanna Best: Will they schedule it out of their day months in [00:34:30] advance? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Let’s talk about morale.

Laura Horton: Go on then because we’ve got a good question for you. [00:34:35]

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So we were saying I’ve been to I haven’t counted but [00:34:40] let’s say a thousand practices. Yeah. You’ve been to let’s say 500 I don’t know how many you’ve been to. Yeah. And [00:34:45] how long do you think it takes before you know what’s, what’s going on in [00:34:50] this practice. Like.

Leanna Best: Oh in terms of like what type of team have we got?

Payman Langroudi: And I [00:34:55] get there, we all have to. We have to get there a bit earlier because we don’t want to be late. Yes. Yeah. I specifically [00:35:00] go in about ten minutes before the time I’m due to go in. Yeah, just to sit and have a look around. [00:35:05]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Have a listen.

Payman Langroudi: Have a listen. Yeah. How am I greeted with that. But then [00:35:10] very like there are different types of morale in different practices.

Leanna Best: Very much so.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And [00:35:15] where does it come from? Does it come. Is it traditionally just from the top? Is it is it as simple as that?

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:35:20] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Is it a situation where I’ve seen, for instance, someone told me they [00:35:25] won’t get us a microwave. Microwave?

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: £50. £20 [00:35:30] in Asda? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Wait, is that a real thing? [00:35:35]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So? So almost.

Leanna Best: Completely detached.

Laura Horton: Mm. One [00:35:40] of the things that we do is observe in practices. So [00:35:45] patient experience evaluation. And that is about well firstly [00:35:50] understanding the challenges from the practice manager and owner perspective. So we get that. We’ve got their list, we understand [00:35:55] what their challenges are, but then it’s about going in really without preconceived [00:36:00] ideas and thoughts, but still understanding where they’re coming from and [00:36:05] observing the full patient experience. And it’s basically like being a fly on the wall. [00:36:10]

Leanna Best: It’s my favourite.

Laura Horton: It’s it’s fantastic. So three hours doing that because of the hours. [00:36:15] Yeah three hours.

Payman Langroudi: Ten minutes.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Well it goes so quickly.

Laura Horton: It goes so quickly. And [00:36:20] three hours doing that. We we know everything inside out anyway. So having a look [00:36:25] in the diaries that is golden.

Leanna Best: Yeah. And their reaction when you say it also. Yeah. Did you want [00:36:30] to.

Payman Langroudi: Did you sit in on the exams and all that.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So sitting in on new patient not necessarily treatment because [00:36:35] you don’t want to spend an hour watching a rubber dam place for a filling. But you know it’s [00:36:40] it’s more about the communication appointment. So a lot of it will be the desk obviously TCO or.

Payman Langroudi: The [00:36:45] team’s defensive about it must be a little.

Laura Horton: Bit.

Leanna Best: They think it’s a personality thing. Yeah I always aim [00:36:50] to explain I’m coming in with no judgement on anybody. We’re looking to improve [00:36:55] your systems and communication. And then when I go in, I make sure I’m super [00:37:00] friendly and engaging. I don’t want them to think I’m just in the background. Who’s that big bad wolf? [00:37:05] And that so far I’ve never had any sort of resistance. But you [00:37:10] do get a different sort of feeling about some people. They’re almost showing [00:37:15] off for you. You can tell they’re not being their authentic self, which I get, I get it, you [00:37:20] know, I’m watching you. You’re not going to necessarily be the most relaxed. Um, but I find [00:37:25] if you’re going to get resistance, it’s after when you go back into.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Leanna Best: Recommendation. [00:37:30] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: That’s when they feel a bit more, I think more.

Laura Horton: The other reason the team are quite relaxed [00:37:35] about the days, well, you know, is because we do ask the practice owners [00:37:40] and managers to tell them that we’re from practice. We started as dental nurses. We’re from practice. So [00:37:45] we.

Payman Langroudi: Do. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And I think that does really help them to go. Oh, okay. It’s not just some, you [00:37:50] know, random person in a suit turned up to stand here with a clipboard and assess [00:37:55] me. We do actually know what we’re talking about. And also, during the day, if we can offer a little bit of advice, we [00:38:00] will as well. You know, if it’s going to help someone out, we can see they’re in a tricky situation. Um, we’ll, [00:38:05] you know, say, oh, you know, how did you find that? Oh, and we’d always say, look, these things always happen when we’re here. You [00:38:10] probably won’t happen again in your working life.

Payman Langroudi: You muck in as well. Do you like the trick? I have.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:38:15] I have, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Help yourself.

Leanna Best: It’s difficult to not want to do things.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:38:20] Yeah. Um, I have in with a client that I’ve worked with for over ten years now. [00:38:25] Yeah. Um, it was a disaster that morning. I think I’ve spoken about it on the podcast, and, yeah, I [00:38:30] ended up just taking over reception. Luckily, I knew the Dental software, but I was like, look, let me just check [00:38:35] people in, check them out, and you just sort everything else out because it had all gone wrong that morning and we all [00:38:40] still laugh about that now. That team, a long standing team. Um, but I think it helps [00:38:45] for the team to also understand that it’s not just the view of the practice manager or owner. [00:38:50] When we get to experience what they’re experiencing and we can say, you haven’t got [00:38:55] enough staff on the desk. Yeah, you know, how do you expect this fantastic experience [00:39:00] and mistakes not to be made when they’re under.

Payman Langroudi: Such pressure on demand? Yeah, [00:39:05] yeah. Do you agree with that?

Laura Horton: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: Compared to other businesses, [00:39:10] you feel that there’s not enough humans around.

Laura Horton: And the phone’s neglected, and then [00:39:15] you’re spending a fortune on marketing, and the phone’s neglected, and, you [00:39:20] know, it’s just crazy really, if you think about.

Payman Langroudi: It, if your practice has taken AI receptionists. [00:39:25]

Laura Horton: No, I’ve got one that’s about that’s about to move to it.

Payman Langroudi: And it’s interesting. [00:39:30]

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’m really interested in it. It was my recommendation to explore it because they have got logistical [00:39:35] issues, staff issues, space issues. And I said, I think this might be something [00:39:40] that’s worth exploring. Um, I’m really interested in it. [00:39:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah. For sure. That’d be really good to hear.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I think it will really solve some problems [00:39:50] for some practices for sure.

Payman Langroudi: You know, we’ve got one of those chatbots on our website.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:39:55]

Payman Langroudi: And we asked everyone to put out all the questions they ever get asked. [00:40:00]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: All of enlighten. 27 questions. Wow. Same 27 questions [00:40:05] every time.

Leanna Best: Really?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And it’s so interesting because, you know, once you train the bot on those 27 [00:40:10] questions, answers them better than our people, right?

Laura Horton: Yeah. That’s amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t it interesting?

Laura Horton: Isn’t [00:40:15] it? That is really good, isn’t it? Yeah.

Leanna Best: I’m really intrigued to hear about this. This [00:40:20] venture your client’s about to go on.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah, I’m really enjoying.

Payman Langroudi: The demo I saw was amazing. Yeah, [00:40:25] I guess they put on their best demo.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it was like you say. It’s how it’s trained, isn’t it? Yeah. [00:40:30] So it really does need to be trained with real calls for sure.

Payman Langroudi: I think the other thing is pretty soon [00:40:35] the it’s going to be bot to bot. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So you’ll ask the [00:40:40] patient will ask their bot box and bot to bot, then you don’t have to worry about it being [00:40:45] human.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I’ll ask my bot to talk to your bot. Yeah, yeah.

Leanna Best: I don’t like that.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:40:50] but do you know one of the.

Leanna Best: I like the human touch?

Laura Horton: Oh, one of the biggest problems still will [00:40:55] always be the face to face customer service experience and how it’s delivered. Like, I [00:41:00] had the most shocking experience on Saturday. I went to.

Payman Langroudi: The.

Laura Horton: No, no, I went to test drive [00:41:05] two cars. Didn’t get to test drive either of them.

Leanna Best: Oh, no.

Laura Horton: Right. So the first one was Tesla [00:41:10] self test drive car wasn’t there and got my little [00:41:15] boy with me and we’re driving. He was really excited. Um, [00:41:20] and we’re driving round and round this car park and I’m like, well, the model I’ve booked to drive isn’t here. I can see that. And [00:41:25] then I got out and I was like, I’m so confused. And you’ve got to use this Tesla app, which obviously is new. I’ve [00:41:30] not used it before. And I’m thinking, what’s going on? And I’ve got reading glasses. Now I didn’t I didn’t [00:41:35] have them with me.

Payman Langroudi: Oh, God.

Laura Horton: So I’m like, what’s going on?

Payman Langroudi: Disaster.

Laura Horton: This guy comes up to me, he’s like, oh, excuse me, are you looking [00:41:40] to test drive a Tesla? And I looked at him and I thought, he’s not in work uniform. And I [00:41:45] said, yes. Are you like save myself? And he said, yeah, but my car’s not here. I said, no, no, it’s mine. [00:41:50] So um, I said, well, you know, so he, he said, oh, if you look on the app press [00:41:55] directions. And I said, well, it’s telling me it’s 28 minutes away in Chelmsford. I don’t [00:42:00] understand it. And he said, well, mine looks like it’s on its journey back. I said, oh right, okay. [00:42:05] I said, well mine’s not. And then I pressed another button. It said mine was on charge. I was like, mine’s in the Tesla showroom in Chelmsford. [00:42:10] It’s not here. I’m not going to get to test drive it. Called a number. No answer. I was like, [00:42:15] what a waste of my time. So then I go to mini. So my most favourite car I’ve ever had is my Mini [00:42:20] countryman. I wish I never got rid of it. I’m like, right, I’ll go and check out the Electric Mini Countryman. I [00:42:25] arrived ten minutes early and I see the guy getting in the car and going for a test drive with [00:42:30] someone else. I know it’s him because they send you the video the day before, don’t they? Here’s the car you’re looking [00:42:35] at like a little video overview. Can’t be bothered to watch that, but whatever. Thanks, Callum. And [00:42:40] I thought that’s Callum. That’s him. But also, [00:42:45] when I’ve been test driving cars recent times, you go on your own, you don’t come with you. Which I think is [00:42:50] great. So anyway, so I’m in there. I was in there and not one [00:42:55] person acknowledged me by icon. Even eye contact in the whole mini showroom. [00:43:00] They’re all dealing with people. And I was like, this is unbelievable.

Payman Langroudi: A [00:43:05] big purchase like that.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And he.

Payman Langroudi: You know, if you, if you, if you ask about bad customer [00:43:10] service, that’s just everywhere. Yeah. But this good customers this gets worse. [00:43:15] So that was the end of the story.

Laura Horton: Right. So I’ve booked my test drive online 1130. He [00:43:20] comes in at 1135. Can I help you? I said, yeah, I’ve got a test drive booked at half 11. He said, I’m going to be another [00:43:25] 15 minutes. I said, no, I don’t work for me. And he said, oh, well, um, sorry, but the people, [00:43:30] um, and we’ve now turned up late and she wasn’t confident driving. I was like, and. [00:43:35]

Payman Langroudi: And, uh.

Laura Horton: And I was like, why can’t you just give me the keys or sign the paper and take it [00:43:40] out? He said, no, I have to come with you now. And I was like, oh, whatever. Um, [00:43:45] I said, I’ve got two questions. One about the dash. I don’t like the colour, the other about [00:43:50] the wheels or something. I said, you know, and he answered them and he said, yeah, I’ll be 15 minutes. [00:43:55] I said, okay, because again, my little boy, bless him, was like, I want to be in the car. Um, [00:44:00] I’ll wait 20 minutes and walked out. He didn’t call.

Payman Langroudi: Didn’t even call.

Laura Horton: He didn’t.

Leanna Best: Call? [00:44:05]

Laura Horton: No. Didn’t call to see if I was maybe in BMW across the road, I was. Like, [00:44:10] do you know what I mean?

Payman Langroudi: Like, it’s basically BMW anyways.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:44:15]

Payman Langroudi: So they’re together.

Laura Horton: So I was like, well, I was like, let’s go and look at these M4 BMW that, [00:44:20] um, mummy probably can’t afford here and all the company car tax will be too high. So, um, [00:44:25] yeah, it didn’t, cause I just couldn’t believe it. And it’s I’ve put a one star Google review on [00:44:30] and now they won’t stop calling me. No, no, it.

Payman Langroudi: Was so shocking.

Laura Horton: It was so shocking. I was like, I’ve got. [00:44:35] But if you look at my Google review.

Leanna Best: I can’t wait. I’m going to look at it.

Laura Horton: I know I only ever give five star [00:44:40] Google reviews. So if you look as you can see what reviews people leave, can’t you? Yeah. So you can see, oh that person always [00:44:45] leaves one star. Mhm.

Leanna Best: You can see.

Laura Horton: Mine are all five star. I’m a nice person for reviews. Like [00:44:50] I was just so annoyed that no one even acknowledged me. You’re not even by eye contact. [00:44:55] It is so rude. It’s just. And. But this happens in practice. People [00:45:00] walk in, patients walk in, and someone sat behind a screen.

Payman Langroudi: There’s not.

Leanna Best: Enough. You had that. So. But I.

Payman Langroudi: Had. [00:45:05]

Leanna Best: A with a full capacity of staff on front of house. Yeah. And [00:45:10] I walked in nothing. And then I felt awkward.

Payman Langroudi: I was in a private practice.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [00:45:15] And then I sat down and I was thinking, I’ll wait, because they obviously know who I am. [00:45:20] Mhm. And then I went up again and I said I’m here to observe today. 000. [00:45:25] And then obviously the energy, the energy shifted. And I just thought well it’s not gone very well for you [00:45:30] has it.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Because if, if you’re doing that now and you know I’m coming. Yeah. Then what are [00:45:35] you doing when I’m not here? Yeah. You know.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: And it’s just not good enough. I just don’t think [00:45:40] it’s that hard to deliver good experiences.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, but when was it? When was the last time you had a great [00:45:45] customer service?

Leanna Best: In May.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Uh, not.

Leanna Best: One bad experience.

Payman Langroudi: It’s [00:45:50] very rare. It’s very rare.

Laura Horton: I’m trying to think.

Leanna Best: But do you feel like because of our experiences [00:45:55] and what we also expect from our point of view, are bars high? [00:46:00]

Laura Horton: Yeah, I think my expectation is high.

Payman Langroudi: It is. But but there should I mean, there’s, you [00:46:05] know, come on. There should be, there should be there should be lots more great [00:46:10] customer service.

Laura Horton: There should be. Yeah. And we really don’t do enough in this country. No. Do you know one [00:46:15] of the things.

Payman Langroudi: But then also remember this? Yeah. We don’t like the hotel you stayed at in Dubai. You’re [00:46:20] not routinely going to hotels.

Leanna Best: Like, everywhere I went.

Payman Langroudi: In.

Leanna Best: Britain, the newsagents I went in [00:46:25] in the mall.

Payman Langroudi: The service was hired out. I went [00:46:30] to Manoir aux Quat’saisons. The service was extraordinary. [00:46:35] Extraordinary.

Laura Horton: Can you tell us?

Leanna Best: Give us an example.

Laura Horton: Was it a celebration? I’m assuming. [00:46:40] Or a bucket list?

Payman Langroudi: No, no, no, my my buddies have moved away. [00:46:45] And then they all said, oh, we haven’t. Our kids don’t even know each other. Let’s go to a hotel [00:46:50] with the kids. And it was two days before Easter. And then he called and he said, I’ve got good news [00:46:55] and I’ve got bad news. Good news is I found a hotel. Bad news? It’s this place. [00:47:00] And it was like the biggest number I’d ever heard per night. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Bring your credit card.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [00:47:05]

Laura Horton: Or two.

Payman Langroudi: But the way they handled it, because we had a bunch of naughty kids [00:47:10] and there was a bunch of celebrations going on. People. People go there for big events.

Laura Horton: They do. [00:47:15]

Payman Langroudi: Wedding anniversary. And the guy just. He was showing us around, and he went, and this is the library. And [00:47:20] then some kid bounced the ball. Yeah. And I saw him notice that. He stayed [00:47:25] calm. And this is. And kids were making too much noise, and they basically decided just to cordon [00:47:30] us off from everyone else. But in an amazing way. Yeah, like they put you [00:47:35] in this other room, which was, like, even more amazing than the room that you were going to go to for breakfast. And [00:47:40] there they put a PlayStation and they just managed us so well. [00:47:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah. Without making you feel like an inconvenience at all?

Payman Langroudi: At all you felt like a VIP. [00:47:50]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: And what’s interesting is you haven’t mentioned the food yet.

Payman Langroudi: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. [00:47:55]

Laura Horton: It’s experience first, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I mean, from the first moment [00:48:00] the doctor Langroudi. We’ve been expecting you. You know, because they ask for [00:48:05] your number plate or whatever. Yeah. And then somehow everything gets done for you. Toys [00:48:10] holding up the names of the kids in the rooms, you know, like, just brilliant. [00:48:15]

Leanna Best: Just brilliant. Wow.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That was the best in Britain.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [00:48:20]

Payman Langroudi: But the rest of Europe.

Laura Horton: I’d love to. I’d love to go there. Yeah. I really would. It’d [00:48:25] be amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Good for.

Laura Horton: You. Yeah. I really want to go. Yeah, it’s on my list. One day of things [00:48:30] to do. Ash went there years ago. I think it was his wedding anniversary and just absolutely raved about it. [00:48:35] It was. And yeah, he’s like, it’s the best thing. He’s.

Payman Langroudi: It’s the kind of thing you need to, like, take your staff to see what [00:48:40] what is amazing service, you know.

Laura Horton: So on that then. Yeah. That again is, [00:48:45] I think, something that practices don’t do enough of if they want to elevate their basic [00:48:50] customer service. Take your team I know it’s nice to go bowling things like [00:48:55] that.

Leanna Best: It’s not nice to go bowling.

Laura Horton: You know not no one wants to put their shoes on. Um, [00:49:00] they’re.

Leanna Best: Not there anymore.

Laura Horton: No, they brought them back in. I said I’m not putting them on. It’s not happening. But [00:49:05] isn’t it nice that I think some of the things that ash did with us is, you know, took [00:49:10] us to nice to a nice restaurant for dinner. Mhm. Um, and we really appreciated [00:49:15] it because it might be a restaurant that we wouldn’t go to normally. Yeah. Um, because it’s [00:49:20] not Miller and Carter, you know, and we’re team members and to go to this nice restaurant [00:49:25] and be treated nicely and get to experience all of that. I think that’s invaluable. [00:49:30] To go and show your team.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, and not only from the perspective of learning, [00:49:35] but also from like a respect perspective. Yeah, like the idea that I, me and my partners, [00:49:40] the directors go to this nice place, but then if we’re going with the team, we don’t go to that [00:49:45] place. It shows a disrespect for your team, you know, because at the end of the day, that [00:49:50] respect point is the most important point. If you want to get your team to do anything, [00:49:55] they’ve got to feel like you respect them. Yeah, yeah. And this sort of thing shows it. I [00:50:00] mean, I think the main thing is how you talk to them and all of that. It’s really important that you mustn’t ever [00:50:05] use the fact that you are the boss as the weapon.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. And we see a lot of that in dentistry.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah, [00:50:10] definitely.

Payman Langroudi: A lot of that dentistry.

Laura Horton: So where do you think great cultures are created from [00:50:15] then? Do you think it’s the top? Where do you see?

Payman Langroudi: I think so. I think so.

Laura Horton: It has to be, [00:50:20] doesn’t it? It’s leadership, isn’t it?

Payman Langroudi: I think so, um, although that said, the [00:50:25] bigger the organisation gets, the much harder it becomes.

Laura Horton: Absolutely.

Payman Langroudi: You know, and [00:50:30] I know corporates have had such a bad rep in dentistry, but they’ve [00:50:35] fixed their game up. And I sort of take my hat off to them sometimes, you know, like you go [00:50:40] to my dentist sometimes it’s like 600 practices and good morale [00:50:45] going on in those. I’m sure there’s some that aren’t good morale. There were many [00:50:50] that weren’t good morale before.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and I noticed that myself when we got to [00:50:55] about 40 employees, it started to get much harder when everyone [00:51:00] doesn’t know everyone on a personal basis.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And then we worked on it, and [00:51:05] we made it again. But but, you know, let’s say it’s 140. You know, plenty of people who’ve [00:51:10] got ten practices. It’s 300 employees. Whatever. It is.

Laura Horton: Really hard.

Payman Langroudi: The bigger it gets [00:51:15] the harder it gets. Um, I also want to ask another question.

Laura Horton: Go on. I [00:51:20] can’t help.

Leanna Best: It.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve only worked in 4 or 5 practices as an employee and actually be [00:51:25] there as an associate. And even in those 4 or 5 practices, a good number of them there [00:51:30] was two power bases.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Payman Langroudi: Mhm. Does that resonate.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: That question of like [00:51:35] there might be a practice manager and this head nurse. Yeah. And all their [00:51:40] teams work for them.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And kind of some woman on woman [00:51:45] violence.

Leanna Best: Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Woman.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: So true. [00:51:50] Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. What’s worse, though, is when it’s the practice manager and the, like, head [00:51:55] nurse together.

Leanna Best: Oh, well, then that’s even more power.

Payman Langroudi: Is much of your work solving [00:52:00] these problems?

Laura Horton: I think we.

Leanna Best: Do a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Of good [00:52:05] at it.

Laura Horton: You’re so good. We do, don’t we? And the practice owners are usually a bit stuck [00:52:10] in the sense of they don’t have the time. They know what they want. They know how they want their team to [00:52:15] feel. They want all of these wonderful things for their teams. It’s not that they’re not wanting to buy them [00:52:20] a microwave. They want all of these things. It’s just how do they make it a reality? And [00:52:25] it’s about understanding how you can break things down into [00:52:30] smaller, achievable points. Because I think the other problem then is [00:52:35] the practice owners, the vision, big thinker, big picture person, and they present [00:52:40] a big picture when actually the team needs smaller bite sized chunks to move forward with. [00:52:45]

Payman Langroudi: I’m guilty.

Leanna Best: Of that.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And then we’re not overwhelming them. And I think when [00:52:50] the team can also really see that there’s investment in them, particularly the reception team, because [00:52:55] they tend to be overlooked quite a lot. And when they can see there’s investment in them, it builds [00:53:00] starts to build that level of respect. I really love the Five Levels [00:53:05] of Leadership by John C Maxwell. Have you ever read that at all? It’s absolutely amazing. I use [00:53:10] it all in management training because it’s a guide to help you become a level five leader, [00:53:15] which is a big thing. Um, I always say aim for level four. Like let’s get [00:53:20] to level four with everyone within your team. And it’s basically about not just [00:53:25] so level one is I’m the boss. Do as you say. Level two is we found some common ground. [00:53:30] So I actually like you because we both like EastEnders. Okay. Um, and [00:53:35] then level three is about what you’ve done for them. So if you’re then progressing [00:53:40] that person supporting their development doesn’t have to be about putting them on courses, but just helping them grow individually. [00:53:45] Then you’re moving up and then level four is what you’ve done for the organisation so they can see [00:53:50] you do good for the team, but you also do good for the business overall, which naturally benefits them [00:53:55] with pay rises, further education, nice restaurants, things like that.

Payman Langroudi: So [00:54:00] level five.

Laura Horton: Level five is to me like Nelson Mandela.

Leanna Best: I knew you were [00:54:05] going to use him. Yeah.

Laura Horton: So level five is, um, someone who. So I tell [00:54:10] you who’s a level five leader to me has always been ash. Um, because it’s about what he stands [00:54:15] for in regards to the greater good as well. Um, as well as [00:54:20] level three and four, um, and what they do for others and, and that type of [00:54:25] aspect as well. But I think if practice managers and owners can get to level four, that’s [00:54:30] really great for them and it really helps them. And so I would always draw [00:54:35] out the steps and get them to right where they are with each person, and then they can start. They’ve got their own plan now, [00:54:40] right? I’m level one with this person. I’ve got to get to level two as quickly as possible. Um, right. I’m already level four with them. [00:54:45] Great. Cool. We’ve got a great relationship.

Payman Langroudi: Um, so it’s individual per person.

Laura Horton: That’s what I would then get them to [00:54:50] do.

Leanna Best: Because your relationship can be quite strained with someone.

Payman Langroudi: With a particular.

Leanna Best: Person.

Laura Horton: And we’re naturally [00:54:55] drawn to those, those level four, level three relationships will naturally be drawn to anyway. We’re going to give each other a good energy every [00:55:00] day, aren’t we?

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: The level one person, um, we’re not we’re [00:55:05] not passing good energy across here. We’ve got to move it quite quickly. I found that book [00:55:10] absolutely fascinating when I read it.

Payman Langroudi: It was the author.

Laura Horton: John C Maxwell.

Leanna Best: Were you [00:55:15] a PM when you read it?

Laura Horton: Uh, no, I wasn’t, but straight away. So I was [00:55:20] in consultancy, but straight away I was like, this is now a method for leadership development, which [00:55:25] everyone needs. Yeah, everyone needs this. So I’ve taught this for years on to managers and practice [00:55:30] owners because it is it is a method and it’s steps that you can climb to.

Leanna Best: To.

Laura Horton: Bring [00:55:35] everyone together.

Leanna Best: I think sometimes when you get that divide, especially with a PM versus the team, [00:55:40] say for instance, or PM and owner is almost like, are you accessible enough as a [00:55:45] PM? Are you just shut away in your office and then you’re only available now and then and [00:55:50] you pop out, but you’re busy and you’re doing stuff and you don’t really have that open dialogue with the team. And [00:55:55] then if you don’t always explain things and they just find out that [00:56:00] then creates a really negative like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And will you PM as well.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And [00:56:05] you were PM as well.

Leanna Best: Yeah I was a short time because then I progressed onto [00:56:10] a sort of lead of a corporate small corporate for their tcos, which was much better suited to [00:56:15] me anyway.

Payman Langroudi: Tough job.

Leanna Best: Tough job. Horrible.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, really? I had Mark Allen, you [00:56:20] know, from Bupa. Yeah, yeah. And he’s been in a whole lot of corporate, you know, he’s a proper corporate guy. An [00:56:25] insurance guy. Yeah. He said PM’s the hardest job.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it’s the hardest job because you’ve got [00:56:30] to be non-emotional. Yeah, you’ve got to be non-emotional. Yeah. Because you’re in management. Yeah. [00:56:35] But you’re also expected to be providing leadership, which is emotional. Leadership [00:56:40] takes time. You’re already fighting fires all day long. As a manager you haven’t got the time. Yeah. [00:56:45] And it’s a constant tug of war. It really, really is. It’s a really hard job. [00:56:50]

Leanna Best: And especially if you’ve become a PA and you were a nurse originally or [00:56:55] front of house. Yeah. Because then all of a sudden you’ve changed roles within the same business with the same people. [00:57:00] And what were your friend colleagues who now.

Payman Langroudi: Know suddenly you’re their boss? [00:57:05]

Leanna Best: Yeah. Yeah. And also I’ve seen that happen. Not with me. It was with colleague and she managed [00:57:10] to switch it really well, but there was a really difficult time period and I felt for her. I [00:57:15] was a I, we had a level four relationship anyway, so it didn’t really impact me. But I used [00:57:20] to see her and think, oh, she’s really suffering with this. It’s quite difficult. Um, so yeah, I wouldn’t necessarily [00:57:25] like to have that journey.

Laura Horton: But PMS, they’re not often given any training either. No, they’re [00:57:30] just chucked in. Some haven’t even got a job description and they’re just chucked in. Oh you’ll, you know great. [00:57:35] You’ve been here the longest. You can be my practice manager. There’s no job description. There’s no [00:57:40] clear. They’re just fighting fires all day long that I feel sorry for that, that reactive management. [00:57:45] Whereas if you can move someone into proactive management it’s really lovely. And then [00:57:50] they really do start to enjoy their jobs every day. You’ve got to have some reactivity. Of course you have things [00:57:55] break, things go wrong. It’s practice.

Leanna Best: Dentistry.

Laura Horton: Dentistry, but [00:58:00] trying to move things into being proactive. But some people don’t help themselves either, do they? They won’t [00:58:05] delegate. They take it all. I’m going to take it all. I’m going to take all of this on. I’m not delegating [00:58:10] a thing. This is all mine. It’s like, well, you’ve got a team of people that can save you three hours a [00:58:15] day and feel valued because you’re you’re asking them to help you. No, no. [00:58:20] And that’s a mindset issue.

Payman Langroudi: But out of the roles, I mean PM’s got so many different roles. Exactly. Out of [00:58:25] the roles, which are the ones that are like the key ones? The ones, the ones that for you define the difference [00:58:30] between like a good PM and a great PM.

Laura Horton: So for me, a good [00:58:35] practice manager is one that gives time to leadership, is proactive who trains [00:58:40] their team, delegates to their team, builds their roles up, and that allows them to [00:58:45] do the leadership to be that leader. Because you can’t you can’t do both. [00:58:50] And that’s the problem with leadership. It takes time. You need to be able to give time to that every day, to [00:58:55] be with your team every day, to be speaking to your team every day. If you’re as I.

Payman Langroudi: But get specific, I mean, as [00:59:00] far as delegate, delegate, which aspects.

Laura Horton: Any little tasks you look at your task list, what can [00:59:05] someone else in my team can someone else in my team do this for me? Okay, they’re probably not going to do the wages for you because it’s confidential [00:59:10] information. But can they, you know, scan in and upload some [00:59:15] receipts to zero? Yes. You know, there’s so many things that practice managers [00:59:20] do that they can actually delegate to their team. And it’s very simple things. [00:59:25] It’s more admin based tasks because a practice manager doesn’t want to be an administrator. [00:59:30] No, they are practice manager. They should be managing the practice. They should be leading the practice.

Payman Langroudi: And do you believe [00:59:35] in the hiring and firing of the of the non non-clinical or even the nurses? Do you think the manager [00:59:40] should be making those decisions.

Laura Horton: In regards to hiring? I [00:59:45] think everyone should be involved in hiring, so the whole team should be involved in [00:59:50] it.

Payman Langroudi: Meet the how involved.

Laura Horton: So what I used to do was someone would arrive for an interview, [00:59:55] they’d come in, they’d um, first of all be met by the team. I’d always do them [01:00:00] at the end of the day interviews as well, so they’d be met by the team. Someone in the team would get to sit and talk to them, [01:00:05] and then they’d come in and be like, yeah, she was a she anyway. But she, you know, [01:00:10] she seems really nice. See I’ve got a good feeling. Okay. Or they’d come in [01:00:15] and I’d be like, okay, well look. Stage one interview, a bit of a chat. Get [01:00:20] the awkward things out of the way. This is your pay. These are your hours. And then they’d get a tour by [01:00:25] someone else, and someone else would be able to chat to them. And if the team were like, absolutely no [01:00:30] way. First impressions, they’re not for us, then I wouldn’t take it any further. If the [01:00:35] team said, yeah, I think, I think she’s good. And I obviously agreed as well. Okay, let’s [01:00:40] get them back for a second interview and then we’ll take it forward.

Payman Langroudi: But you think that I mean, the principle.

Laura Horton: Doesn’t [01:00:45] need.

Payman Langroudi: Doesn’t.

Laura Horton: Need to be involved.

Payman Langroudi: We did that. Really?

Leanna Best: Yeah. We did that with Neil. Yeah. And [01:00:50] but the difference was it would be if it was a nurse, the nurses would interview [01:00:55] them. And then the second interview was with the manager. Yeah. Neil wouldn’t get involved [01:01:00] because he would just stress us all out. He wouldn’t look for the same things that [01:01:05] we’re looking for. And at the end of the day, they’ve got their, um, probationary period [01:01:10] anyway. So if they don’t work, we’ve got that to look after us, so to speak. And then when I became [01:01:15] TCO, it was myself and manager that would interview, and then it would just end with [01:01:20] us.

Payman Langroudi: And the, you know, the situation of you hire someone, [01:01:25] okay. They get through that probationary period. How soon do you fire them if they’re incorrect? [01:01:30]

Laura Horton: Quite quickly I would yeah. So I’d always do. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So I kind of figure it [01:01:35] out quite quickly. You don’t you don’t, you don’t start making excuses for them, you know like changing their situation [01:01:40] or.

Leanna Best: I think Laura doesn’t. But I think that does happen.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: So happens a lot.

Laura Horton: Yeah. This is what [01:01:45] I’ve learned, right. Six months probation.

Payman Langroudi: Six months.

Laura Horton: Six months. Because after [01:01:50] four months people can’t keep up the act any longer. So if they’re acting [01:01:55] that they’re.

Payman Langroudi: No. I thought maybe like in the first week you realised, oh.

Laura Horton: In the first week phone in.

Payman Langroudi: Sick.

Laura Horton: Do you really, [01:02:00] really shouldn’t you.

Payman Langroudi: If on day one someone turns up ten minutes late. Is that a [01:02:05] big red flag?

Laura Horton: So straight away we’ve got a contractual issue. So straight away it needs to be an inform. [01:02:10] I love HR here. Are you ready? Straight away. It’s into an informal meeting, so just confirm your start [01:02:15] time is 9 a.m.. You should be here. Changed. Ready to work for 9 a.m. today? [01:02:20] You’ve arrived at 9:10. What’s the situation? What’s happened today? Because you [01:02:25] have a bit of empathy.

Payman Langroudi: My bus, my bus, my bus.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Okay. So how are we going to avoid this happening again? You [01:02:30] can get up a bit earlier, set your alarm clock. Stop snoozing it. Yeah. Get an earlier bus. Fantastic. [01:02:35] And then hopefully it doesn’t happen again.

Payman Langroudi: And then let’s say in four weeks time, it happens again.

Laura Horton: We’ve got another contractual issue so [01:02:40] then we can move it forward. So I’d be calling the HR company I need to move this forward now. This is [01:02:45] normal. Yeah. Yeah because it’s contractual issue.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. Yeah I like that.

Laura Horton: You’re an employee.

Leanna Best: It’s because if you don’t [01:02:50] it can spiral and become a culture.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah I get it I get it.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So so then you can [01:02:55] start moving into warnings and such. But this is where managers need training again isn’t it. It’s [01:03:00] the communication.

Payman Langroudi: It’s a common situation, right? Because so many people are late.

Laura Horton: And.

Leanna Best: I think [01:03:05] they get away with it.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And then you’ve got flexible working requests now as well so people can submit them more frequently [01:03:10] now.

Payman Langroudi: I think, you know, you guys have to also be aware I mean, you are aware [01:03:15] of it, right? My teams, most of my teams come in 1 or [01:03:20] 2 days a week. Yeah. Yeah. And the rest of the time, they’re at home.

Leanna Best: Yeah. [01:03:25] And I bet they work for longer at home. Not necessarily.

Payman Langroudi: Well, the reason why it’s working [01:03:30] for us is because our office is in Camden, and some of them were driving, like, [01:03:35] or tubing an hour and a half to get there and an hour and a half to get back. That’s [01:03:40] hard. Yeah. A waste of life. Exactly. And, you know, the cumulative waste of life. [01:03:45] Yeah. Yeah. Because it’s expensive, right? So they were living in all sorts of miles and miles [01:03:50] and miles away just to come to Camden and work. And we I sat with my partner and [01:03:55] said, look, the cumulative time that these people are travelling. It [01:04:00] was like 45 hours. It’s stupid. Yeah. A day of travel [01:04:05] was happening, and I was saying, even if one third of that is sort of [01:04:10] helping us somehow, that’s sort of worth it. But what my point is clinical [01:04:15] teams have to turn up.

Laura Horton: Yeah, they’ve got to. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And they see their friends who work at enlighten. [01:04:20]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And and so.

Laura Horton: They’re at the gym at 730.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, [01:04:25] yeah. And by the way, it’s so, so so we know there’s a recruitment [01:04:30] crisis in dentistry. I think it’s everywhere. Yeah. But this fact, the fact that you’ve [01:04:35] got to be there every day when they look around at their friends and we’re different. I mean, two days [01:04:40] a week, it’s one day or two days a week. It’s very little. Most companies are doing four.

Leanna Best: Yeah, [01:04:45] four.

Payman Langroudi: Days a.

Laura Horton: Week.

Payman Langroudi: But there is one day off.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Off?

Laura Horton: Yeah. Working from.

Payman Langroudi: Home. Working from. [01:04:50]

Laura Horton: Home? Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Whereas whereas our nurses and receptionists and things can’t do that. Right. And so [01:04:55] there must be some empathy for that or some pay rise for that. And [01:05:00] this is the awful thing. Dentistry. It’s the lowest paid job. Being a [01:05:05] dental nurse of of many jobs and one of the hardest jobs. Nurses are the [01:05:10] ones running the whole show.

Laura Horton: It’s really hard. Really hard job.

Leanna Best: Really? Really hard. Yeah. And [01:05:15] especially if you’ve got a huge practice and you’re Bankston from different dentists who have completely different needs [01:05:20] communicate completely differently. And every day you’re adapting.

Payman Langroudi: You [01:05:25] told me that you were sent in with with all the difficult dentists that you could [01:05:30] handle anyone.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah. To love it.

Leanna Best: It’s not my story.

Payman Langroudi: But tell me. Tell me about [01:05:35] times where, like, a dentist has been rude. Just like.

Leanna Best: I.

Payman Langroudi: Pulled rank or something. [01:05:40]

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: It’s very common, isn’t it?

Leanna Best: Yeah. Not so much now, I don’t think. Um, [01:05:45] well, maybe the last.

Payman Langroudi: Not anymore though.

Leanna Best: No. When I was nursing, in the end, [01:05:50] a lot of it, um, was women. And they were younger than me. So there was a different dynamic, [01:05:55] maybe.

Payman Langroudi: Female on female violence again.

Leanna Best: No, no, it was female on female love. It was it.

Payman Langroudi: Was.

Leanna Best: Love. [01:06:00]

Payman Langroudi: It was love. Okay, good.

Leanna Best: But yeah, most of if I’ve ever had a bad experience, it was with [01:06:05] an older male, and I would just shut down and become like a child and would be. [01:06:10] Yeah. Yeah, I’d be really nervous. Yeah. I wouldn’t be able to react in the way that I [01:06:15] would normally react if I wasn’t in work. Um, and I just wouldn’t say anything at all. But [01:06:20] then that would quite quickly be obvious to them and they’d say, are you okay? And I’d be like, [01:06:25] oh, not really. But never really explain. I was quite frightened, to be honest.

Payman Langroudi: Invoked something [01:06:30] from your childhood.

Leanna Best: Maybe. Yeah. I was just like, no, absolutely not. I’m not. I’m not going to [01:06:35] say anything. I’ll just shut down.

Laura Horton: I think most nurses do, though, when they’re spoken to [01:06:40] in a, you know, unprofessional manner. Most nurses, particularly younger nurses, [01:06:45] will just see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think maybe because I was.

Leanna Best: There from a young age. [01:06:50]

Laura Horton: Yeah. And they’ll then they’ll as soon as they walk out the door. Cry. Yeah. Walking home. You [01:06:55] know they won’t say anything.

Payman Langroudi: I’ve had several dentists now who did nursing because of the, you know, [01:07:00] overseas thing.

Laura Horton: Yes. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: One of them told me when I said, what did you learn about [01:07:05] being a nurse? Because, you know. And she said, do you know that time when [01:07:10] you grabbed the suction off the nurse? That’s really hurtful.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I never [01:07:15] thought that. I never even for a second, for a second thought there’d be any problem with [01:07:20] me taking the suction. And because you know.

Leanna Best: What you need.

Payman Langroudi: I’m [01:07:25] not saying anything about what you’re doing.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I just have to take care of the situation. And she said it’s so, [01:07:30] so painful when that happens because you feel like you’re not doing your job right. And it’s interesting.

Leanna Best: The names of [01:07:35] things don’t change the name because I don’t know what you mean this time. I had a dentist that I.

Payman Langroudi: Worked when they asked [01:07:40] for a particular thing with a different name.

Leanna Best: A different name. And I’m like, where is that? And they’re like, you know, [01:07:45] the thing? And I’m thinking, no, I don’t know because it’s a different name. Yeah.

Laura Horton: And charting, you know, you’ve [01:07:50] now got the European charting, you know, and you’ve got one dentist doing that and another [01:07:55] doing what I call the normal. Yeah. And you’re like, oh, hang on, which is, which is tooth [01:08:00] number 11 again. Hang on, hang on a minute. You know.

Payman Langroudi: By the way, I go into practice and ask nurses, [01:08:05] do you notice the same dentist all the time or different and much more common that it’s different dentists.

Laura Horton: Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Why [01:08:10] doesn’t make any sense.

Leanna Best: I think to maybe you’ve got flexibility. Flexibility? [01:08:15] Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And not in my life if I, if when I was a dentist and I haven’t been dentist for 13, 14 [01:08:20] years when I was a dentist, if you took my nurse away, that would really hurt like hell. Because we knew we knew [01:08:25] what we were.

Leanna Best: Because you were nice, though. So she liked.

Payman Langroudi: Or I was like, but but I’m saying I [01:08:30] needed her. Like I really needed her full handed. Like she used to do the [01:08:35] shade.

Laura Horton: Bit.

Payman Langroudi: Like she used to do a bunch of stuff. For me that was important. And when she wasn’t there, it was a nightmare [01:08:40] because.

Laura Horton: So do you know the reason the practices are doing that is because they’re getting everyone [01:08:45] trained to the same level. That’s what they’re trying to do, so that every nurse is like your nurse now. [01:08:50]

Leanna Best: Yeah, we all worked exactly the same.

Laura Horton: That’s what they’re doing. Yeah. Every nurse is working to the same clinical [01:08:55] standard. That’s what that’s that’s.

Payman Langroudi: Possible because there’s so many nuances. Each [01:09:00] dentist has got their own.

Laura Horton: It depends how many dentists are in the practice. It’s quite hard or the or the exact [01:09:05] opposite happens, which is the dentists are running the show and the nurses are not, you know, and they are [01:09:10] there just to have the suction and pass what’s needed. So it can go either [01:09:15] way. But when I’ve done it, it’s the nurse. Everyone’s trained to the same level. Everyone can nurse with each dentist at [01:09:20] the same level. So it’s not there to stress the dentist.

Payman Langroudi: When we trained in Cardiff, the [01:09:25] it’s just so happened we became really pals with the nurses on the full handed [01:09:30] part of the clinic. Yeah. So they used to just save us the chairs. And so I only learnt [01:09:35] forehanded. Yeah. I didn’t learn anything else.

Laura Horton: That must have been really stressful then when you weren’t with a full handed [01:09:40] nurse.

Payman Langroudi: The first day of first day of. Yeah, I get there and I just put [01:09:45] my hands out like a like a the princess. And she.

Leanna Best: Went.

Payman Langroudi: She went. What are you doing? And [01:09:50] I said.

Laura Horton: Instruments.

Leanna Best: Please.

Payman Langroudi: You look like. Hello. [01:09:55] And then. And then she goes, they’re over there like, on my side. And I wasn’t even like it was my [01:10:00] first day of. I had no idea what to move. I said, no, no, no, no, no, I can’t have these here. These have to be on your side. [01:10:05]

Leanna Best: No. Can I be there?

Payman Langroudi: And do you know what she did? Got up and quit. Quit [01:10:10] the job? Yeah. Now it wasn’t me. I think it was. It was a straw. It was the straw that [01:10:15] broke the camel’s back. She said I’ve had enough of this shit. Just.

Leanna Best: Just quit. Quit the [01:10:20] job.

Payman Langroudi: So then the principal’s coming in. First patient, first day. Yeah. My nurses just got up [01:10:25] and walked out and said, what the hell did you say to her? And I was like, I just said, [01:10:30] hold it.

Leanna Best: Please. Can I have my instrument?

Payman Langroudi: Yeah.

Leanna Best: Were you [01:10:35] precious about the pressure, the way they put it in your hand?

Payman Langroudi: No, man. No no.

Leanna Best: No.

Payman Langroudi: Okay, good. You know, by the time I said, [01:10:40] oh, you do this and this to switch it and I’m out. Oh.

Laura Horton: Were [01:10:45] you upset that day?

Payman Langroudi: God! First job, first moment, first moment. Yeah. Oh. [01:10:50]

Leanna Best: That’s so sad.

Payman Langroudi: That should have been my confession.

Leanna Best: That shouldn’t be.

Laura Horton: So we’re [01:10:55] gonna have to move on anyway. Let’s do your confession. Confession [01:11:05] of a dentist or what?

Payman Langroudi: No, no no, no. It’s a funny one. It’s a funny one.

Leanna Best: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: Then. So, do [01:11:10] you remember from when we started enlightened? An enlightened one from. We started [01:11:15] enlightened till 2012 to 2000 and 1 to 2012. Bleaching [01:11:20] was illegal.

Laura Horton: Yes, I do remember because it was the state trading standards [01:11:25] that stopped it, didn’t they? Because someone got a bit on their trousers.

Payman Langroudi: Well, it was illegal. The law. The [01:11:30] written law was 0.1 percent. Yeah, but then we all ignored [01:11:35] that, right? All practices ignored that and suppliers ignored that. Some suppliers [01:11:40] ignored that. Actually, we managed to grow a lot in that period. You know. Big companies wouldn’t break the law. [01:11:45] And we managed to to grow a lot. And, you know, the way I thought about it was [01:11:50] either you’re going to bleach teeth or you’re going to put veneers on them. Yeah. And I will I will go to [01:11:55] court to say I was bleaching the teeth. It’s better than sticking veneers on them or whatever it is. Anyway, [01:12:00] um, one day I think it was employee number two, so [01:12:05] maybe we were just one year in and, uh, she came in and said, [01:12:10] oh, by the way, this stuff’s, um, by the letter of the law. It’s [01:12:15] it’s illegal. And it was it was a time the office was the size of [01:12:20] this studio here. Like, that was the whole of enlightened was the studio. This room here. And I said, [01:12:25] by the way, yeah, there’s this thing that, you know, don’t worry about it at all. It’s just nothing. [01:12:30] And at the time we were to get around this law, we were separating [01:12:35] the peroxide from the gel.

Laura Horton: Ah, I remember this.

Payman Langroudi: We were doing in-office whitening with the light.

Leanna Best: Yeah, [01:12:40] yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And we were separating. We were, we were telling the dentist, go buy peroxide chemical [01:12:45] from wherever. Yeah, but we had some peroxide around in the office [01:12:50] for demos. Yeah. Anyway, it was just one room and all the [01:12:55] stuff was in the same room. Like, we didn’t have a warehouse. It was just. It was a tiny business at the time. We [01:13:00] had 30 customers or something. So I’m explaining to employee number two. Yeah. And [01:13:05] with my wife was there as well. She used to work in the business at the same time. So, yeah, it’s just it’s a letter of the law. Don’t worry. [01:13:10] It’s nothing. It’s a nothing. But. But you should. But you should know. You should know. And so [01:13:15] she sort of raised an eyebrow. Okay. And then it was a serviced office, and we got a [01:13:20] call from the thing saying trading standards are here, and Trade Standard [01:13:25] never visited us before.

Leanna Best: That moment when you’re just.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. As I was explaining. Yeah. And then my wife [01:13:30] goes the peroxide, the peroxide, and she starts taking [01:13:35] it off the shelves. And just that moment, that face of that employee number two. [01:13:40] When she saw us running around, she stayed for.

Leanna Best: Years.

Payman Langroudi: But [01:13:45] her face that day. I’ll never forget.

Leanna Best: That. Can you imagine me.

Payman Langroudi: At Fawlty [01:13:50] Towers? Oh.

Laura Horton: And what happened?

Payman Langroudi: Nothing.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:13:55]

Payman Langroudi: Nothing. Nothing. Nothing bad.

Laura Horton: You said there’s no peroxide here, mate. [01:14:00] Move on.

Payman Langroudi: No, I actually, I actually had to. I said to him, he said it’s [01:14:05] a safety concern. And then I said, do you know not every yellow line is there for a safety [01:14:10] concern. And and then and then I told him in America it’s [01:14:15] 200 times. And he was like looking at his notes. You know, we we [01:14:20] talked about it. We talked about it.

Laura Horton: That’s a good.

Payman Langroudi: Thing. Yeah. It turned out okay. But just that moment was the funniest [01:14:25] moment.

Leanna Best: Oh how funny. I love that. I’ve never told that story before. Just as [01:14:30] you’re talking about it.

Laura Horton: They turn.

Leanna Best: Up. What are the chances?

Payman Langroudi: The way we ran around to get rid of this peroxide. [01:14:35]

Leanna Best: Peroxide? I love that.

Payman Langroudi: On her first.

Leanna Best: Day.

Laura Horton: I [01:14:40] think that’s brilliant. I like the.

Leanna Best: Four handed dentistry one as well.

Laura Horton: Yeah, that’s really good. Really good story. [01:14:45] Okay, [01:14:50] time for quick fire questions. Let’s get [01:14:55] to know you a little bit more. I’ve been having a great time here today. Very good, very good. Okay, [01:15:00] so, um, the first one I think is quite funny. Books or podcasts?

Payman Langroudi: I [01:15:05] sleep with headphones on.

Laura Horton: Um, [01:15:10] early riser or night owl?

Payman Langroudi: Night night. 1,000%.

Leanna Best: Really? [01:15:15]

Laura Horton: Right, right. What time do you tend to stay up till then?

Payman Langroudi: One. Two.

Laura Horton: Really? [01:15:20]

Payman Langroudi: If you leave me to my own devices. During Covid, I stayed up to four. [01:15:25]

Laura Horton: Wow.

Leanna Best: Doing what?

Payman Langroudi: Just listening. Pods. You know, like.

Leanna Best: Having [01:15:30] a lovely time.

Payman Langroudi: Flicking. Flicking? Yeah, I’m basically scrolling and listening to podcasts at the same [01:15:35] time.

Leanna Best: Lovely.

Laura Horton: What time? Like on a working week. Then say you’ll stay up to say one. What time [01:15:40] do you get up?

Payman Langroudi: Um. One thing I decided about seven years [01:15:45] ago was never to use an alarm again.

Laura Horton: Right. Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. So I like to wake up on [01:15:50] a trail.

Leanna Best: Oh. That’s lovely. No, not waking up to shock.

Payman Langroudi: Just for no. So everyone [01:15:55] knows my first meeting is 11.

Laura Horton: Right. Okay.

Payman Langroudi: You know, so I don’t have I don’t have a nine or a ten meeting, so. [01:16:00] But I’m up but I’m up. I’m up at, like.

Laura Horton: Wake up. Naturally. Yeah. Living the dream.

Leanna Best: So [01:16:05] you’ve got low sleep needs then really get older.

Payman Langroudi: You’ll find the same thing.

Leanna Best: My dad used to say that to me. Yeah. [01:16:10]

Laura Horton: I. What are you.

Leanna Best: I used to [01:16:15] be early morning, but now I’m more night because I feel very tired since having children.

Payman Langroudi: I think it’s [01:16:20] a me time thing.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: I think I get my me time at night.

Leanna Best: That’s a really.

Payman Langroudi: Some people get [01:16:25] up at 5 a.m. and get their me time.

Leanna Best: Yes.

Payman Langroudi: Early in the morning?

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: See, my husband’s a night owl, [01:16:30] so he’ll start watching all sorts of rubbish, and I’ll go to bed, but I actually he’ll laugh if [01:16:35] he hears me saying this. Do you prefer to be up earlier? Because even if I can just sit and have a cup of tea. [01:16:40]

Payman Langroudi: I think in all couples one is one way and ones to avoid each other.

Laura Horton: Yeah, probably. [01:16:45]

Leanna Best: Yeah, makes that work.

Laura Horton: But but but mind you, saying that my husband wakes up really early as [01:16:50] well. He doesn’t. Just doesn’t have much sleep.

Leanna Best: Yeah. No, I think I’m more Night-Time now. And [01:16:55] it is the me time.

Payman Langroudi: Me time means me, doesn’t it? Yeah. No one else.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: I don’t have [01:17:00] any time at night now. Because Harry started going to bed so much later to the point I’m [01:17:05] like.

Payman Langroudi: How old.

Laura Horton: Is he? Nine. So 9:00 is his new bedtime and he’s not tired. [01:17:10] The next day he’ll sleep till seven.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Laura Horton: Um, and he’s not, he’s not tired. [01:17:15] That’s just naturally I think. Oh gosh. He’s like my husband isn’t he. He doesn’t need.

Payman Langroudi: Much sleep seven, ten hours.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:17:20] Well that’s also the amount of sleep I need.

Leanna Best: Um that does stress [01:17:25] me.

Laura Horton: Nine till six would do me nice. Ten till six. Lovely.

Leanna Best: I much prefer getting [01:17:30] up at seven than six. Six doesn’t work for me. In my.

Laura Horton: Mind.

Payman Langroudi: Although although look, I [01:17:35] was at a restaurant two nights ago and I had a coffee at the end of my meal. [01:17:40] Yeah, it was like 930. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone was like, oh, coffee? Coffee [01:17:45] at 930. Wow. Like, everyone was like, really worried about me. And [01:17:50] I was like, yeah, not because I’m this. I’m tired. Yeah. I’m tired. And [01:17:55] you don’t realise how tired you are? No, because you just get into the swing of things. Yeah. And I remember when [01:18:00] I was trying to get extra sleep, then when I would get, like, seven hours, then I’d feel tired. [01:18:05] And it’s a weird thing. You’re killing yourself slowly. So. Yeah.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:18:10] I declared on holiday that when we got back from holiday, I was going to start getting up at 5 a.m. and my [01:18:15] husband’s reaction was to laugh hysterically.

Leanna Best: Especially this time of year. The worst.

Laura Horton: It’s the worst [01:18:20] time for you. If you’re going to do it, do it in spring when.

Leanna Best: The.

Laura Horton: Clocks change and we live in the middle of nowhere, it’s pitch black. We’ve got no [01:18:25] street lights, no pavements, nothing like it’s like it’s just the wrong time to do it. Just I was like, okay, I won’t do it then. [01:18:30] Right. Next one. Spontaneous or planner.

Payman Langroudi: Spontaneous.

Laura Horton: Oh, lovely.

Leanna Best: I [01:18:35] reckon I knew that.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I love that. That’s fantastic.

Leanna Best: It’s really fun.

Laura Horton: Yeah. [01:18:40]

Payman Langroudi: I can’t just. Bad planner.

Leanna Best: Mm. Do you know what happens when you plan? Sometimes if [01:18:45] it goes wrong, that’s more upsetting than if it was just, like, off the cuff.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah. [01:18:50] Spontaneous?

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Laura Horton: Yeah. I’d love to be more spontaneous, I think. Now I’m not. [01:18:55] I’m a planner.

Leanna Best: But you’ve got the spontaneity.

Laura Horton: Oh, I want to be, I want to be, I enjoy it. It’s [01:19:00] fun, isn’t it?

Leanna Best: I want.

Laura Horton: To be. Yeah. I want to be like, sorry. Let’s just go and jump on a train. Go to London. [01:19:05]

Leanna Best: Today. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: How far? How far ahead do you book your holidays?

Laura Horton: Oh, well, I’ve just booked up until I’ve just booked, [01:19:10] um, 14 months ahead. It’s my current one.

Payman Langroudi: You just paid for a holiday.

Laura Horton: 14 months deposit. [01:19:15] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Where are you.

Laura Horton: Going? That one’s Centre Parcs, 14 months. [01:19:20] Because you’ve got to get. You’ve got to get a good price.

Leanna Best: I’m looking on holiday.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. [01:19:25] See if you suffer with that.

Laura Horton: Yeah. So. And also I like to go to nice places, so I’ve got to book in advance [01:19:30] to get the best price. I’m not going to book last minute.

Payman Langroudi: I pay too much.

Laura Horton: You probably [01:19:35] pay double.

Leanna Best: What you do last minute.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah. Like I sometimes I book, like, a [01:19:40] week ahead.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Leanna Best: I couldn’t be that spontaneous. I need to know what clothes I’m wearing. [01:19:45]

Laura Horton: It’s not that.

Payman Langroudi: Get your clothes.

Leanna Best: To the outfit.

Payman Langroudi: The cost [01:19:50] is way.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Like I really like. And I don’t want people to think I’m snobby here, [01:19:55] but I really love the Ikos resorts and.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I.

Laura Horton: Of course, [01:20:00] all over Greece. There’s one in Mallorca now, another one in, I think Portugal, and there’s one in Marbella, but the [01:20:05] Greek is the Greek ones for me, I love them.

Payman Langroudi: And is it? How much cheaper is it when you book [01:20:10] that far ahead?

Laura Horton: Well a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Is it.

Laura Horton: Yeah, it’s a lot.

Payman Langroudi: Because I’m [01:20:15] just thinking flights. I mean, I played I paid some ridiculous price for flights to nice. Yeah. Because [01:20:20] it was a week ahead.

Laura Horton: Yeah. And but it was the summer as well. Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Extortionate [01:20:25] peak season.

Laura Horton: Yeah. Extortion. Absolutely. Rob. Absolutely. Rob. Blind. But. So I [01:20:30] like to go to these places, and they are really expensive. But so. And Centre [01:20:35] Parcs like that’s not cheap. That’s not cheap.

Leanna Best: At.

Laura Horton: All. No. It’s my son’s favourite holiday. Is it. [01:20:40] Yeah. He loves it more than anything. And so I’ve got to book these things far [01:20:45] ahead to be able to like I can’t.

Payman Langroudi: Afford what you.

Laura Horton: Want. Yeah. I can’t justify paying double [01:20:50] the price for. I wouldn’t do it. Whereas, like my sister said, I just looked at ICOs. This was earlier [01:20:55] in the year. I just looked at ICOs for the summer. It was 20 grand for the four of us. I was like, well, yeah, because you’re looking [01:21:00] at going three months before they’ve only got the biggest rooms left. The [01:21:05] villas, it’s all booked out. You’re not gonna you’ve got to book really far ahead to [01:21:10] get the right price. Also I want good seats on the plane, so I don’t want [01:21:15] to have rubbish seats and things like that. So. But I’ve.

Payman Langroudi: You’re very organised.

Laura Horton: My parents have always been like that [01:21:20] though. My parents, my mum.

Leanna Best: Always book stuff.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I need to know. I’ve got these things to look forward [01:21:25] to as well as a bit of that. Yeah. Um, right. Phone call or text message it. [01:21:30]

Payman Langroudi: I mean, I was thinking about it. 95% of all my communications are [01:21:35] texts. Yeah, but I’ve got my 6 or 7 people who I.

Leanna Best: That’s like [01:21:40] me. Yeah.

Laura Horton: That’s really nice, isn’t it? Voice notes. Do you do voice [01:21:45] notes? No. I knew.

Leanna Best: You wouldn’t.

Payman Langroudi: I can’t bring myself to do.

Laura Horton: Yeah. We love a voice note, but that’s mainly because, [01:21:50] like, this morning, we couldn’t talk because of connection issues on WhatsApp and the phone. Like, so just [01:21:55] voice.

Payman Langroudi: I like getting them. Yeah. Don’t put them out.

Laura Horton: Okay.

Leanna Best: I’m like walking down the [01:22:00] street. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Uh, luxury or simplicity? [01:22:05]

Leanna Best: Go on.

Payman Langroudi: It’s another one of those. It’s a difficult one. [01:22:10] It’s a difficult one because a lot of simplicity is luxury as well. Yeah. Like, I don’t know if you’re thinking [01:22:15] about, I say this Airbnb, it was like this. It was minimalism, like.

Leanna Best: To.

Payman Langroudi: The top. [01:22:20] Yeah. It was bloody expensive. Yes, it’s that luxury.

Laura Horton: That’s luxury. That’s luxury.

Payman Langroudi: Simplicity. [01:22:25]

Laura Horton: Would you go camping?

Payman Langroudi: I’ve been. No, no, no. Luxury.

Leanna Best: I’d [01:22:30] say that’s.

Laura Horton: That’s simplicity, isn’t it? Camping.

Leanna Best: Would you.

Laura Horton: Camping? [01:22:35] Not really.

Leanna Best: I love the face change.

Laura Horton: No, it’s difficult because I’m thinking. Harry.

Leanna Best: It is difficult. [01:22:40] It’s not enjoyable.

Laura Horton: I wouldn’t for me, my biggest priority at all time is sleep. Yeah, [01:22:45] so if I’m not going to sleep, I don’t want to go.

Leanna Best: Stresses you out? Yeah, yeah.

Laura Horton: Okay. [01:22:50] What have you got on your ones?

Leanna Best: Oh, okay. Big picture or detail orientated? Big [01:22:55] picture. Yeah. Okay.

Laura Horton: Got that from earlier.

Leanna Best: Structured agenda or free flowing meetings.

Payman Langroudi: Free flowing. [01:23:00] I hate meetings, I hate meetings. Do you hate meetings?

Leanna Best: Why? [01:23:05]

Payman Langroudi: Just a tough man, I don’t know.

Leanna Best: They are tough.

Payman Langroudi: Sometimes I’m sitting in a meeting. [01:23:10] It’s about my subject, in my company, with my people. And [01:23:15] I’m like, I want to be out of here.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: And I was talking to my brother. He’s a doctor, and, um, [01:23:20] they’ve got terrible lives, doctors.

Leanna Best: Really.

Payman Langroudi: Tough lives. And I was saying to him, [01:23:25] the one good thing is you don’t have meetings. Meetings are so hard. I don’t like meetings, man.

Laura Horton: I used to say, [01:23:30] we have meetings about meetings, and I find it really frustrating if we’re going to have a meeting. Can we just. [01:23:35] Let’s make some progress. Let’s move forward. I can’t see people just sit and talk and like, yeah, let’s do this. [01:23:40] And then nothing actually happens. That’s my infuriation.

Payman Langroudi: That happens too.

Laura Horton: But do you think it’s more just [01:23:45] it’s your time.

Leanna Best: You just.

Payman Langroudi: Don’t.

Laura Horton: Like. You just want people to make the decisions.

Payman Langroudi: I just don’t like meetings.

Leanna Best: Do [01:23:50] you find them intense?

Payman Langroudi: One on one? Yeah. Yeah. I’d love. Yeah, but arguments [01:23:55] and meetings and people are wed to their ideas quite a lot. I’m in sales and marketing, and that’s [01:24:00] where I am. Yeah. And so in marketing, the. It’s a difficult one. You want [01:24:05] people to come up with ideas? Yeah. But then there’s arguments about ideas. Yeah.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah. [01:24:10] It can be really uncomfortable. Yeah. And what I don’t like about meetings. So if you said to me, let’s have a meeting, I’m [01:24:15] not stressed out. Yeah. But if I was in a different situation, maybe with somebody that I don’t know [01:24:20] so well, or somebody who I know is intense and very direct. Absolutely. [01:24:25]

Payman Langroudi: By the way, by the way, zoom meeting.

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: With all kind of strangers. [01:24:30] Yeah. That horrible first two minutes where you’re, like, asking, like trying to get. [01:24:35] And you don’t know whether you should start the meeting. I hate it.

Leanna Best: Yeah. Uncomfortable.

Laura Horton: Do [01:24:40] you know what I still find very interesting? That happens to me. Not so much now, but it [01:24:45] still happens is when I get messages or voicemails [01:24:50] or even emails from people that are, you know, in the trade and, [01:24:55] um, and they’ll be like, oh, I just wanted to arrange to meet up with you to have a talk about. [01:25:00] And I think, what planet are you on? What planet are you on? I don’t know you. You’re [01:25:05] some random man most of the time. Oh, okay. Yes. There’s no problem. Are you free next [01:25:10] Wednesday to meet in some random place in London?

Payman Langroudi: Isn’t that your first [01:25:15] sort of top of funnel?

Laura Horton: No no, no. It’d be like. Like you. Yeah. Hi. [01:25:20] I’m Payman. I’ve got this whitening product. I think it’d be really good if we could work together. Do you want [01:25:25] to come and meet me? Why not? Oh, I don’t know who you are. I’m not going to meet.

Payman Langroudi: Someone from a security perspective. [01:25:30] Okay.

Laura Horton: Meet some random man.

Payman Langroudi: From a security. Yeah, I didn’t I [01:25:35] didn’t understand that.

Laura Horton: Sorry. Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Thought. I thought you were saying your time’s too precious and you can’t.

Leanna Best: No, no, [01:25:40] she’ll say, book a call in. Here’s your. Here’s the link.

Laura Horton: I’m not going to meet some random man in [01:25:45] a hotel. You know I’m not that kind of girl. No, [01:25:50] but I find it really interesting how the.

Payman Langroudi: Other side doesn’t see it.

Laura Horton: No. And I’m [01:25:55] like, no.

Payman Langroudi: But what do you think’s going on there? Do you think they’ve got intentions?

Laura Horton: No, not at all. But I’m [01:26:00] just like.

Leanna Best: Is there a preference to have that conversation face to face?

Laura Horton: Yes. Yeah. But I don’t know [01:26:05] you. So let’s meet at a show or something like that. That’s like.

Leanna Best: A.

Laura Horton: Blind date. Yeah. [01:26:10] I’m not just going to go and meet some random man.

Leanna Best: Mhm.

Laura Horton: Um.

Leanna Best: How uncomfortable For [01:26:15] the first time.

Payman Langroudi: I get it, I get it. No, no, I do get it. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. If [01:26:20] it was a woman, would you turn up?

Laura Horton: Probably. I probably am I. Yeah. If I was interested [01:26:25] I probably would. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um there’s literally a sort.

Laura Horton: Of it’s just literally.

Payman Langroudi: Security.

Laura Horton: Because [01:26:30] you watch these programs, don’t you, on Netflix. You do documentaries. And [01:26:35] even before that, you know, I remember years and years ago, just very quickly on digressing the conversation here, [01:26:40] um, you know, on your website, you have to have like an address or whatever, don’t you? So obviously [01:26:45] I had my home address back in the day. And then one Saturday I kept getting all these phone calls [01:26:50] and I’m not answering my phone on Saturday anyway, I kept ringing and ringing [01:26:55] and I thought, this must be urgent. This person’s called me 20 times now. Have I told you this? [01:27:00] And it was this guy. And he said, oh, hello, are you Laura? And [01:27:05] I said, yes, speaking. And he said, oh, I really want [01:27:10] to come to your house for you to teach me how to brush my teeth.

Leanna Best: Oh, [01:27:15] no.

Payman Langroudi: Go on.

Laura Horton: It wasn’t a prank, right? And I was like, what the hell? And [01:27:20] I was like, no, I just hung up. My husband, now husband was there. [01:27:25] He was like, what the hell was that? I was like, I don’t know. I said, but the first thing that popped into my [01:27:30] mind is my address is on my website. And I ever since then, I’ve used a virtual address [01:27:35] because you just don’t know what weirdos are out there, do you?

Leanna Best: It didn’t turn.

Laura Horton: Out. Yeah. No, it didn’t turn up. But, [01:27:40] um. Yeah. So so things like that of like, they spook you, don’t they? [01:27:45] And then I just but I find this interesting in the trade that these messages still go out. Hey. [01:27:50]

Leanna Best: I think if I was London based honestly and I had that [01:27:55] and it was in the area and it’s busy, I wouldn’t have a problem with meeting in a coffee shop. Yeah. And they [01:28:00] had like a well-known website and I could look them up. That wouldn’t necessarily.

Laura Horton: But they’re not usually [01:28:05] well known.

Leanna Best: No. Then. No.

Laura Horton: So I wouldn’t mind meeting payments. Not an [01:28:10] issue.

Leanna Best: No. But then you know him. That’s cheating. Yeah. Not playing the game.

Laura Horton: But [01:28:15] yeah, I find it odd. Found it.

Leanna Best: Odd. Inbox zero or organised chaos.

Payman Langroudi: Chaos? [01:28:20]

Laura Horton: Yes. My kind of man.

Leanna Best: Me.

Payman Langroudi: Total chaos.

Leanna Best: Remote first or [01:28:25] office first?

Payman Langroudi: Like I say, we’ve really moved. We’ve really changed our position on that. So? [01:28:30] So. And by the way, we’ve got a whole team in South Africa.

Leanna Best: Wow.

Payman Langroudi: Like a whole team. It’s like five [01:28:35] people.

Leanna Best: It’s a whole team.

Laura Horton: Still a team.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but like, if you if you call enlightened, there’s a 5050 [01:28:40] chance that your calls going to South Africa or coming here. And, um, the good thing about South [01:28:45] Africa is there, um, time zones? Very.

Laura Horton: That’s what I was about to say. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: The customer [01:28:50] service orientation is way more than if you if you pick up a random [01:28:55] person from South Africa and a random person from the UK, they’re way more they’re more like Americans or. [01:29:00]

Leanna Best: Australians.

Payman Langroudi: In that sense.

Laura Horton: So do you go over there often? No, no, [01:29:05] no.

Payman Langroudi: We just put an ad on Indeed.com Is that a yes? [01:29:10] There’s a little legal piece that you have to get, right?

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but we’ve had some of [01:29:15] our best people are out there.

Laura Horton: Amazing.

Payman Langroudi: Um, but but the sort of the remote thing brought that on because [01:29:20] we thought of our team sitting in Ilford. Could be sitting in South Africa. Well, this [01:29:25] is it’s half the price.

Laura Horton: This is what I think is also great, though. It’s not about the price. It’s about the quality of the people. If [01:29:30] it’s a remote job, you’re getting to pick the best. Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Like, the good thing about South Africa is [01:29:35] that the quality of the applicants was brilliant.

Laura Horton: Yeah, I.

Payman Langroudi: Bet a lot of good applicants. [01:29:40]

Laura Horton: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: Um, and then their economy is very difficult. But, [01:29:45] look, there are clear disadvantages. Yeah. Yeah. Because culture wise, you can’t quite know [01:29:50] for sure. No. Um, people worry about people doing two, three jobs like that. You know, [01:29:55] there’s these sort of things.

Leanna Best: Yeah.

Payman Langroudi: But we’ve just got we’ve had a great deal. And we’ve also got rid of someone [01:30:00] who wasn’t great. But. Yeah, but we’ve had a great, good 3 or 4 people there.

Laura Horton: That’s really.

Payman Langroudi: Good sales. [01:30:05]

Laura Horton: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s great. Very good. Fantastic.

Leanna Best: This is great, by the way. Yeah [01:30:10] I have. Have you enjoyed.

Payman Langroudi: It? Definitely.

Leanna Best: Good.

Laura Horton: It’s been really nice to be together.

Payman Langroudi: Is [01:30:15] it the difference? I hate a meeting, but I love a conversation. It’s weird.

Leanna Best: It’s not weird, but it’s very organic. [01:30:20] The way today’s gone.

Payman Langroudi: Yeah, there’s. There’s nothing. There’s nothing expected of you in a conversation. But [01:30:25] in a meeting.

Leanna Best: Yeah, yeah. Expectation. Yeah. You’re our.

Laura Horton: Only expectation. Was a funny [01:30:30] story, a confession. And that was.

Payman Langroudi: It.

Laura Horton: Yeah. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Fantastic. Brilliant. [01:30:35] Right then. So we’ll wrap up now and say thank you so much for hanging out with us.

Leanna Best: Thanks for hanging out. [01:30:40] Yeah.

Laura Horton: Thank you so much, everyone. Um, and as always, please subscribe. [01:30:45] If you’re on YouTube like us, give us a five star review. And, um, I’m [01:30:50] sure you already listened to the Dental Leaders podcast, and so thank you very much. [01:30:55]